7 24 165 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5cc5dcf07eea2c8d0d2d9605b964b099.pdf af2e90ef5e97d2c62a49c54b3bfef0fe PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Dimas Rodríguez Flores Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/21/2012 Biography and Description Dimas Rodríguez Flores grew up since the 1930s in Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico and continues to live there in the Lao Frío side of the barrio. He is a twin brother with Encarnación Rodríguez Flores who lives in Barrio Espino on the other side of Monte Peluche, a tall mountain peak that never has snow on it and is visible to all of of San Salvador and most parts of El Espino of San Lorenzo. They have another eleven siblings, including their youngest sister, Eugenia Rodríguez Flores. Although Mr. Rodríguez has always lived in Puerto Rico, like many Puerto Ricans his life is connected to cities across the United States mainland through family. Many of his children live in the United States: Ramon is a teacher and lived for many years in Aurora, Illinois. Juan worked with Teo Arroyo to bring the first Puerto Rican parade to Aurora. Pablo is currently a Catholic priest. A veteran of World War II, Mr. Rodríguez loves to play his cuatro and is well educated, constantly reading. He is a devout Catholic and in his early years collaborated with the Hermanos Cheo, or Brothers Joe, an organization of lay preachers who sought to preserve Catholicism on the island at a time when there were few Puerto Rican priests. The Hermanos Cheo also got families to cooperate with each other during the Great Depression and World War II. Mr. Rodríguez has remained a recognized leader of the Catholic capilla of San Salvador throughout this life. At one time in the 1960s he was deeply involved in the Acción Cristiana Political Party, but he later rejected that affiliation because, “the church has to remain separate from the politics �of the state.” Mr. Rodríguez explains that he was for Puerto Rican independence but rejected the politics of Don Pedro Albizu Campos because, “it was violent and scared people.” Mr. Rodríguez reveals that he too was being watched and harassed during the 1950s by government agents, just for wanting independence. Repression was then going on all over the island, as the Nationalist Party was making their revolution. Today, Mr. Rodríguez is retired, enjoys his parakeets, and cooking his vegetables and eating the fruits of his land. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a9657789052bdeb209545171091cfddc.mp4 98a7492246b0d6f0c9a5a82e6257caa2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Dimas Rodríguez Flores vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Puertorriqueños--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Flores_Dimas Title A name given to the resource Dimas Rodríguez Flores video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Flores, Dimas Description An account of the resource Dimas Rodríguez Flores grew up since the 1930s in Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico and continues to live there in the Lao Frío side of the barrio. He is a twin brother with Encarnación Rodríguez Flores. They have another eleven siblings, including their youngest sister, Eugenia Rodríguez Flores. Although Mr. Rodríguez has always lived in Puerto Rico, like many Puerto Ricans his life is connected to cities across the United States mainland through family; many of his children live in the United States. A veteran of World War II, Mr. Rodríguez is now retired. He enjoys his parakeets, cooking his vegetables, and eating the fruits of his land. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Puerto Ricans--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f46468d32b54e4bafa02810ad6938ae.pdf 97ff4af8f433e0def045774ddeab1476 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carlos Flores Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/29/2012 Biography and Description Carlos Flores is a cultural activist who lived at La Salle and Superior in the La Clark barrio, growing up on Armitage Avenue. He takes pride in relating that his family was “the last of the Puerto Ricans to leave Lincoln Park” and recalls life in Lincoln Park which included his share of minor street battles as a teen member of the Continentals Social Club. Mr. Flores also fought for Puerto Ricans as a full fledged member of the Young Lords.Mr. Flores served on the Chicago Mayor’s Advisory Council on Latino Affairs, under Harold Washington. This council was first set up in 1983 by the Young Lords and four other Latino representative organizations city-wide soon after Harold Washington was elected the first African American mayor in Chicago history. Its purpose was to make recommendations of potential candidates to the various departments and for other Hispano concerns. Mr. Flores earned a Bachelor’s Degree in Education from the University of Illinois and he holds a Master’s Degree in Criminal Justice. He has worked as a private investigator for the Office of Civil Rights, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, and the Illinois Department of Public Aid. He plays the vibraphone, is a free- lance photographer, and a documenter and promoter of Puerto Rican and Afro-Caribbean music. Mr. Flores is also founding member of the Puerto Rican Arts Alliance and a former coordinator for Project Kalinda, at Columbia College’s Center for Black Music Research. Since 1998, Mr. Flores has assisted in organizing an annual Cuatro Festival. He produced a documentary film about the 1998 Havana Jazz Festival and has �written many essays on Afro-Caribbean and Puerto Rican music, some published in journals such as Chicago’s De Paul University Dialogo and the Centro Journal of Hunter College in New York. Mr. Flores has conducted his own oral history interviews with Chicago Puerto Rican residents, and as a photographer has held exhibitions at Malcolm X College, the Old Humboldt Park Stable Museum and the Old Town School of Folk Music. Currently, Mr. Flores continues his community leadership, giving lectures on Puerto Ricans, Afro- Caribbean music, and urban renewal displacement for the Urban Life Center. He also teaches a workshop for the Neighborhood Writing Alliance and another workshop on Puerto Rican tiple construction. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you could -- Carlos, if you can give me your full name, when you were born. CARLOS FLORES: Yeah. My name is Carlos Flores. I was born in Guayama, Puerto Rico, in 1949. I arrived in Chicago in June of 1959, at the age of 10, or right before turning 10. The first place that I moved to that I lived in Chicago was in Superior and La Salle, which is like in the area right around Clark Street and Chicago Avenue, near there. And so I spent a couple of years there, and then went to school at Ogden Elementary School. JJ: How old were you then, about? CF: 10, 11. JJ: So what was Ogden like? I mean -- go ahead and answer. CF: Ogden school was, well, you know, it was kind of interesting because back in those days, it was a lot of Puerto Rican -- my sisters were already here. They had been here, like, maybe three or four years before. But Ogden School [00:01:00] was kind of like, at that time there was no bilingual education, so what I remember from that situation is that I used to be put in the back of the room, and all I did, I spent drawing in Crayolas all day long because, you know, I couldn’t communicate with the teacher. I couldn’t participate in the classroom because I didn’t speak the language. So, you know, it was a disadvantage in terms of my educational process at that early age, in terms of the disruption that happened with it. You know, coming from Puerto Rico, being in school, and then 1 �coming here and actually being put through that whole disruption, which eventually did have an impact on my educational life because eventually, I ended up dropping out of high school and getting kicked out of high school. You know, I just like -- the interest, and I really lost focus in terms of, you know, educational objectives, you know, that you might have gone through as, you know, as -- I mean, the [00:02:00] initial process would have been to go through grammar school, high school, and then into college. That would have been the smooth transition. But many of us came here, and the disruption of the language barrier actually caused -- had a cause and effect on a lot of our lives because of the fact that we -- by the time we’re already in high school, we just, you know, we were so far behind trying to catch up that a lot of us just gave up, had no aspiration. I mean, and then, you know, people would not have ever talked to us about going to college. That was like something that you need, you know, it was unheard of, you know? So. But, you know, I remember living there. I remember there was -right on the corner of Superior and Clark Street, there was a store called the Spanish American Food. It was kind of like one of the first stores that actually provided services to people living in that area. So they had all kinds of produce, and all kinds of stuff. Then you had several theaters on Clark Street. You had [00:03:00] one which was called the Standard, which we used to call [el marito?], which, you know, was like 10 cents a pop, but it was horrible. And then down the street was the Newberry, which was about a block away, and then about two or three blocks from there was the Windsor, which was on Clark and Division. And so those were the theater houses that we would go to when we were kids. But 2 �then I didn’t live there. You know, we lived maybe one or two years there. Then we moved to 17th -JJ: What type of housing was there? CF: Well, you know, we live in apartment buildings. And you know, there was a lot of Puerto Ricans living there. They were all living, and right there, in the corner of La Salle and Superior, there was also an orphanage that was run by the Catholic archdiocese. There was a lot of orphans that lived there. I mean, the building is still there. The area’s changed a lot, but that particular building is still there. A lot of the housing that was there was a lot of apartment buildings. And so basically that was the [00:04:00] kind of housing that was there. We used to live like on the third floor, right there on Superior and La Salle. Then from there, we moved to another building -- JJ: The [Water?] Hotel was across the street? CF: The what? JJ: The Water Hotel. Was that across the street? CF: The Water Hotel? JJ: There was a hotel called the Water Hotel. CF: There was a bunch of hotels, man, on Erie, Ontario. I mean, they was part of Skid Row in a way, back in the days. I mean, I was too young to, you know, even realize, but I know that there was like on Clark Street, south of Chicago Avenue there was numerous hotels that actually, you know, housed a lot of the people that would -- at that time, you know, they were called bums, and they were just bumming around. A lot of alcoholics, and it’s kind of interesting because it’s right 3 �in the outskirts of downtown that you had this thing going on, and then all of a sudden when the city, you know, began to clean up, they really cleaned up, you know. They surgically just removed all those people, just like they removed people [00:05:00] from, you know, in other areas a little bit later on. But they began by cleaning out that whole area. I mean, they’re still doing that, you know. They’re doing it all the way on the west side now where the united -- the United Center is, where the Bulls play basketball. The UIC, Cook County Medical Center, and Rush Presbyterian. That whole area has been surgically removed, and they’ve gotten rid of all the people who live in those areas. So like it started there, but there was a lot of, you know, it was called Skid Row back in the days. I don’t remember the name of the hotels, but there were quite a few that were, you know, up and down the street. Also on State Street, too. So. JJ: So you were going to Ogden, and then from there where did you go after that? CF: From there, we went to -- we then moved to 1714 North Larrabee, which was another, you know, Puerto Ricans were also moving to that area. And from there, I went to a school called Newberry, [00:06:00] which today is called a Newberry Academy. It’s like a school where a lot of the -- what is it, the talented, creative kids go to school there now. But back in the days, it was like, there was a neighborhood school, and there was a lot of us that would go to school there. It was kind of like somewhat integrated. It was becoming more integrated as more people lived there. So that’s how we actually -- where I grew up most of the time, in terms of my whole teen years, on Larrabee Street. I used to hang out at St. 4 �Michael’s High School, St. Michael’s Church, which was like two blocks away from my house, and -JJ: So you didn’t go to St. Michael’s at all? CF: No, I didn’t go to -- I went to St. Michael’s in high school. JJ: Oh, in high school. You didn’t -- CF: So in grammar school I went to, like, I went to Newberry and I went to [Arnold?]. JJ: And Newberry was a -- CF: Public school. JJ: Public school that was mixed, you said, at that time? CF: Yeah, it was integrated. It was integrated. It was integrated. Mostly, you know, Puerto Ricans, whites, some Black kids. [00:07:00] There were some kids that used to live on Burling Street where, you know, we used to call them gypsies, you know. They were like some of the gypsy kids that lived there. But they were like from different parts of Europe, and their families, like the [Horvaths?] and the [Doonas?], and the [Laceys?]. Those were the names of the people who lived there. JJ: So there were a lot of them, though. CF: There were a lot of them. There was like a whole block on Burling. I mean, it used to be to the point that we used to get into fights with them. But then at the end, at one time there used to be, you know, like they used to mess with us, you know, as kids, and then eventually we outgrew them, and after a while we actually -- there was more of us than there was of them. But at one time, they 5 �were kind of like these bullies kind of kids. Like I remember one guy named Dennis Horvath, and [Gary Doona?] all those guys, you know. JJ: Yeah, I knew Gary Doona. I met him. CF: Gary Doona, yeah. All those guys, you know, they thought that they were like some bad dudes, but in reality, you know, when it came down to nitty gritty, you know, [00:08:00] they didn’t have no heart. JJ: So now when you were fighting them at that time, you were not part of a group. CF: Nah, it was just kid stuff, man. Yeah, you know, grammar school, you know, sixth, seventh, eighth grade, you know, that kind of stuff. And like I said, after a while, we actually outgrew them. You know, there was more of us than it was them. You know, it was like, so there was always a lot of conflicts in grammar school after school. But you know, like six -- JJ: What were some of the conflicts? CF: Huh? I don’t know. I guess someone probably saying something to one of the girls who actually was a cousin of them, or their sister, and they didn’t want -because you know, in a way, they were a little bit prejudiced, you know. Even though they looked just like us, you know? They were like dark-skinned, oliveskinned people, but they were like -- they had some kind of -- some prejudices and racist attitudes about, you know, who we were as a people. And you could tell. You know, you could always tell that attitude about [00:09:00] you know, like, they would not hesitate in calling somebody “nigger”. You know, and in a moment’s notice. But yeah, but that was not even an issue. You know, after a 6 �while, they just like calmed down and chilled. So from there, you know, I went to school at Arnold, and then my family also then bought their first house. JJ: So they moved from Larrabee -- CF: From Larrabee to 1120 West Armitage, which is right on Armitage, near Sheffield. Now when I was living on Larrabee, it was kind of interesting because I was involved in that community. As a matter of fact, I actually played baseball, little league baseball, in this one league called the Old Time Little League, and I was probably like the Jackie Robinson of that league because I was the first Black, Puerto Rican kid that played baseball in that whole league. And then, but that was a whole thing in Lincoln Park where I grew up. JJ: What were some of the teams there? [00:10:00] You know, because I played in a baseball team, too. CF: Yeah, but you know what that -- JJ: But I never was too connected -- CF: Well that little league, the teams were like -- JJ: Oh, we played regular hardball in little league. CF: Right, it was a little league. But these teams were like named after baseball teams. You know, like I was in the team called the Cubs, and they had the Cardinals, and so, you know, it was an interesting little league. JJ: I was on the Leprechauns. CF: The what? JJ: The Leprechauns. CF: The Leprechauns? 7 �JJ: Yeah, and there was an Italian baseball [medic?]. CF: Yeah, well I played baseball [all but the ball?]. But the interesting thing about Lincoln Park during that time period is that every Sunday, every weekend, the place is packed because, you know, the passion of a Puerto Rican was baseball. That was their thing. And so every Sunday you went to Lincoln Park, that place was really packed. You know, my dad used to be a baseball manager. They would use all the diamonds in the park. Every diamond, baseball diamond that was there was being utilized. And you know, I remember them playing league ball, but then they were playing softball, [00:11:00] the 12-inch fast pitch, which was actually a league that was run by the Caballeros of San Juan for many, many years. But so, you know, Puerto Ricans on Saturdays and Sundays were usually in that park. I mean, if you go by there now today, it looks like a desert because ever since, you know, people started giving them doubt, and Puerto Ricans no longer use that park to play baseball anymore, and the high schools closed down. So I don’t know what they’re doing with that land. I mean, it’s just there, and nothing’s being done with it. The baseball -- I hardly ever see anyone playing baseball there anymore. JJ: So you mentioned the Caballeros of San Juan. Who were they? CF: Caballeros of San Juan was this organization that was formed by the Catholic archdiocese to actually I guess, you know, make life a little better for Puerto Ricans that migrated to Chicago. Like, you know, the big migrations started coming to Chicago like in 1946, and from 1946 to 1966, it was a major migration. I mean, one of the biggest [00:12:00] migrations of one particular group from one 8 �area to the other, and there’s like thousands and thousands of Puerto Ricans that migrated here, you know, looking for a better life, better jobs, and so a lot of the people that came to live here were not -- you know, they were kind of like in a way peasants, in a way. They were not, you know, educated people. They were like people that, you know, were either working as peasants or farmers, and they decided they wanted a better life for their kids and their families, so they just took a chance, got on a plane, and came here. And they found work, and they did okay because, you know, some of them raised families, you know, had their kids go to college for the first time, and the end result is that we have some of the major players that live in this city who actually came from those families. So it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t a group of really educated, sophisticated, middle class [00:13:00] Puerto Ricans that migrated to the city. It was basically more the less educated, poor peasant population that came from Puerto Rico from 1946 to ’66. I mean, now, you know, it’s a whole different ball game. But those were the people that were living here like in the ‘50s and in the ‘60s. You know, and then living in different areas of the cities where they came. They actually lived in the south side, in Woodlawn. They moved to, you know, Clark Street, which is like near Lincoln Park. I think they call that now Gold Coast. That’s what that neighborhood’s called now there. Because you know that Chicago is broken into all these, like, trendy neighborhoods. Gold Coast, they lived in Garfield Park, they lived in Lincoln Park, Humbolt Park, and so they lived -- they were scattered throughout the whole city. So -- and as they came here, they began to establish their own little things. So with the Caballeros and the archdiocese there then, 9 �[00:14:00] I think that they were part of this process of actually recruiting Puerto Ricans to come to work here. Because that’s how the whole migration came, you know. There was an employment agency that went to Puerto Rico to recruit. JJ: What was the name of that? CF: I think it was Castle something. It starts with Castle. It was an employment company, employment agency that recruited. And what they were doing is they were looking for domestic workers and also people to work in the steel plants in east Chicago and throughout the city. And so you know what they did is they actually brought in like kind of like a labor force from the island to work here. And so, you know, a lot of these folks came, they didn’t speak the English, they, you know, it was a whole rude awakening coming from beautiful island to this winter, this cold, cold-blooded, you know, big city, and so the thing is that [00:15:00] the Caballeros and the archdiocese, given that, you know, most Latinos, mainly Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Latino and Latin American, and the Latin American and the Caribbean, they’re all -- they’re Catholics. So this is a service that the archdiocese put together, and they began programs of how to make Puerto Ricans, you know, to -- what’s the word I’m looking for? To integrate, and to actually melt into the melting pot, into the mainstream of here in the city of Chicago. So they would give them, like, English classes. They would, you know, do social programs to help them out. There was also this whole system of, you know, recreation. That’s what they did, you know, so one of the recreations would be baseball leagues. They created baseball leagues, softball leagues. They used to have all these councils in different neighborhoods, Concilios, where 10 �a lot of the people from that area, based on a parish. So they would take a church, [00:16:00] and they would have a council out of those churches. So like in St. Michael’s, where I grew up in, it was Concilio Numero Tres, Council Number Three. They were gone -- they were not given names, but they were like by numbers, you know, Council Number Three, Number Four, Number Five. They had one south of -- they had one in Chicago on Orleans, which is part of St. Joseph. They had them all over the city. And so they come together, they played baseball, they played dominos, they would have fundraisers, and they would have dances. And it was an interesting, you know, clique of people helping each other out back in those days. And then you also had the whole dynamics which a lot of people have never even studied. I mean, I think that this is something that is part of a history project in its own, is this whole thing of social clubs. Because you know, nowadays in Chicago, you have, like, for example, one of the biggest clubs you have here is La Sociedad Michoacana, [00:17:00] which is, you know, a lot of these people from Michoacan, which actually from Mexico, will actually have formed like a civic society, Los Hijos or La Sociedad Michoacana. And these folks will send money back to even to the point where they actually have bought ambulances and firetrucks with the money that they made here and they sent it back. But that whole concept is a concept that it had been here already, because the way that the social clubs work is that, for example, they would have [La Sociedad de Ponce, Los Hijos de Vega Baja?], and they had their own little -besides what the Concilios had in the archdiocese, they had these private clubs. And what they did is that they had dances, they raised money, they had their 11 �own, you know, officers, and they would, like, self-sustain. And so they also provided and all this. So like if someone from Vega Baja was going to come to Chicago, the people in Vega Baja would say, “Well you know, when you go to Chicago, [00:18:00] check out the people in the Vega Baja club.” And you go there, and you go there, you introduce yourself, and you’re going to find people that either know you, know your family, know where you’re from, and they would help you find housing and jobs and so forth. So there was -- it was kind of like an interesting thing. I mean, I think -- I mean, that’s been one of my things of actually going back and studying that whole concept with the social clubs, you know, [Los Hijos de Ponce?], [Los Hijos des Caguas?]. Every town had a little social club, man. And that kind of, you know, kind of kept the community together in terms of knowing, you know, who was what, what was going on. So it was kind of like our own little community being formed. Because you know, down in Lincoln Park, we had what they call a Puerto Rican community center. The Puerto Rican community center was located on Dickens and Halsted on the second floor. They had a baseball team. They had -- they were there for years. I think this guy named Mike [Rivera?] was the president of it, and [Florito?] and all these guys were, [00:19:00] you know, people go there on weekends to play dominos, play pool, hang out, have a beer. And you know, that’s how they were able to keep themselves afloat from, you know, from all that other stuff, you know, in terms of going crazy with the winter and everything else. So, you know, the social club played a tremendous role in the survival of Puerto Rican migration into the city of Chicago. 12 �JJ: And what about -- there were other groups too like the, you know, did you know anything about the Puerto Rican Congress? CF: Oh yeah. There were other groups. There were like [El Puerto Ricua?] which won -- which actually was formed by -- JJ: Had you ever gone in there? CF: Yeah, as a matter of fact, I remember the -- well I remember in the ‘60s, they had their building right on Milwaukee, right over the -- right there by the expressway on Milwaukee south of Augusta. Between Augusta and Chicago, there was a little building there, and they -- I mean, I remember because I used to -- you know, [00:20:00] we used to play baseball, used to play baseball against them. I played baseball on one of the little league teams. It was called [El Posto Boricua?]. And it was an army, VA post center, you know, for the army veterans. A lot of the veterans that went to Korea that were veterans. JJ: Puerto Rican veterans? CF: Puerto Rican veterans, right, that went there. As a matter of fact, the organization existed not until a couple of years ago. I don’t think that they’re around anymore, but that was one of the -- and then you had the -- JJ: What did they do? What did they do? You said you went in there? CF: They probably -- you know, I was young, so they probably, you know, did the same thing. You know, did events and activities that promoted and helped Puerto Rican veterans. You know, I mean, I think that was their target, you know, in terms of helping Puerto Rican veterans and providing you know, again, another civic organization to help, you know, the process where Puerto Rican 13 �veterans would get together. Then you had the Puerto Rican Congress, which is another organization [00:21:00] that -- I think they were formed like in 1952 or ’53. And that organization also served the same role. Not the same role as the church, because the Caballeros, you know, it was more of a Christian, religious type of an organization, and they had all these different structures of -JJ: But they were huge. I mean -- CF: Oh, the Caballeros were huge. I mean, these other organizations were, you know, they were more kind of like grassroots organizations where people came in. Now the Puerto Rican Congress, what they did is, I remember they had the one building was on Larrabee and North Avenue. They might have been somewhere else before that, but that was like one of the first places. I used to play baseball with their little league team, and they were a lot into baseball. Now, it’s interesting because, you know, we’re getting ready to do -- there’s an exhibit that’s going to be displayed, I think in April, first, second week -- next week, as a matter of fact -- about the legacy of Roberto Clemente. It’s at the Smithsonian Institute. It’s one of two exhibits that are going to be [00:22:00] presented. It’s a traveling exhibit that they’re going to be presenting in Chicago. And so the Roberto Clemente’s going to be happening within the next week or so, and it’s kind of interesting. I mean, I’m thinking of going to the reception. I hadn’t really decided but, you know, the whole thing about Roberto Clemente not only being a great baseball player, but also, you know, the life lessons that he taught us in terms of being humble, being, you know, a person with a lot of pride, and being very proud of who he was, not only as a Black Puerto Rican, but as a great 14 �human being. So I think that, you know, that’s what we walk away from this life. That’s why he actually was so revered because, you know, the guy even gave his life, you know, going, you know, getting on this plane, and that was kind of like suicide because he would have checked the plane, you know, the guy who actually got Clemente to hire him, you know, had a defective plane. [00:23:00] And the plane, you know, had not been, you know, it’s terrible what happened. He could have avoided from going, from dying. JJ: So basically what happened to the plane? CF: The plane, as soon as they took off, it, you know, and the plane was like -- JJ: It was loaded with what? CF: It was loaded with supplies, you know, because of the -- they had an earthquake in Nicaragua. And Clemente had been there like maybe the year or two before to play baseball in the Pan-American -- not the Pan-American, but [La Serie Caribe?]. He went to play then. He said the people were a little beautiful, so he actually wanted to give back. So he got on this plane, but the plane that -- the whole story is that the guy who actually heard Clemente, you know, trying to look for a plane to take supplies and, you know, he knew he had a defective plane. And so he told Clemente, “Yeah, I can do it. And you can ride with us.” And that plane was loaded up, it was defective, it was like -- so as soon as it took off, it just went down. And they never recovered his body. But [00:24:00] that whole thing of actually learning from him about how you -- I mean, a lot of us learned a lot of things from him. One of the things that I learned in life from him is that -and so a lot of people also because Clemente was also criticized because a lot 15 �of, you know, the American media kind of felt that he was a hypochondriac -what’s the word that I can’t -JJ: Hypochondriac. CF: Hypochondriac, where he was always complaining that he was hurt and stuff. But he used to hate to give interviews because of the language barrier. He couldn’t speak English as well, and so what the media would do is they would actually verbatim repeat what he would say in broken English. And, you know, and kind of like was making fun of him. And he kind of didn’t really care for that kind of stuff. So he actually stayed to himself to a lot. So what happens -- and I can relate to that, because I know that a lot of people -- I hear they think that -[00:25:00] they confuse, you know, your integrity and your self-respect and the way you conduct yourself with being arrogant, you know, and that’s not the case. I mean, even African American ballplayers who would criticize Clemente that he was never, you know, a communicative guy. Well he couldn’t, you know, he couldn’t talk to them. He couldn’t really communicate with them because he had language barriers. But also, this whole thing about this pride and this integrity and the self-respect that you have, a lot of people sometimes confuse that as you being a showoff, or you think that you’re better than anybody else. No, that’s not it. It’s that, you know, you had a certain pride. I mean, one of the things I’ve learned, if I get kicked out of somewhere, I don’t go back. I mean, I learned that from my mama, you know. I take my pride and walk away. You just don’t walk away from -- you know, keep coming back and then slapping in your face. So that was the kind of thing you learned from Clemente, but I was going to go to the 16 �event and actually tell people [00:26:00] that traditionally that’s our sport. You know, Puerto Ricans have always traditionally -- they’re baseball folks. Not in comparison to the Mexican community, which their main sport is soccer, right? So the Clemente thing, I was just going to say that Clemente had a great influence on our baseball thing, but in 1959, we also had the history in Chicago. In 1959, there was a team from the Puerto Rican Congress that won the national championship. A lot of people don’t know about that, but in 1959, there was a team that entered into a tournament in the Park District. They won all the way up the ranks. They won all the things, the state championship, and they ended up representing Chicago in the Midwest, and they played in Dayton, Ohio. I think that they played the championship game with a team from Birmingham, from Alabama somewhere. And they beat them for the national championship. I mean, I hear stories about -JJ: They were from Lincoln Park? CF: [00:27:00] Yeah, some of them were from Lincoln Park, exactly. You had people like [Benny Torres?], [Rigby Lleya?], you know, [Mochito Alves?] was one of the managers on that team. There was, you know, a bunch of guys that were very talented that came out. So you know, obviously that’s [an accomplishment?]. A lot of Puerto Ricans don’t know that. And we had people out here who are now in charge of our history who don’t talk about that kind of stuff, and those kind of things are important to tell folks about. So, you know, and then you had people -because, you know, you had a kid right now. His name, I think, is [Victor Cruz?] or something, who actually played with the Mets. He actually went to Clemente 17 �High School. So there was a product that came out of that. But we also had people like Benny Torres, Rigby Lleya. We had [Ephraim Valentín?] who was one of the Valentín brothers who actually -- who were assigned to a major league contract including this guy [Reynaldo Ramos?], [Bobo’s?] brother, who spent like two years in the minor leagues with the Yankees, [00:28:00] you know, who were like teammates together. So it’s kind of interesting that we’ve contributed to the betterment and growth of the city. You know, so in ’59, here we are, national champions of an amateur baseball tournament that a lot of people really pay no attention. And there are stories about the little second baseman was real short. He’s in the hotel, and there’s this big old white guy who was saying, “Hey, you must be the bat boy.” And so the little Puerto Rican second baseman says, “Okay, I’ll be the bat boy.” So when they’re playing, the guy hits the ball way out there, and he's running the bases, and he’s telling the guy, “I’m the bat boy you were talking about yesterday.” Those are the kind of stories -- because you know [Bob Medina?] also played on that team. And Bob Medina was one of the people that was involved with the politics in the city. He was a campaign manager and so forth. So he was also part of that whole baseball league. So we have a tradition and we have a history of things that we’ve contributed to the growth of the city. JJ: And that was with the [00:29:00] Puerto Rican Congress? CF: Those were the Puerto Rican Congress. So that was just an aspect. And then, you know, the Puerto Rican Congress later got involved with -- because they always worked with the youth. They was always trying to figure out different 18 �ways to channel that energy. And so then they got into the business of music, and they actually formed a music academy, and as a result, some of our top players now came out of that academy and are doing great things musically. Like there’s this guy named Edwin Sanchez who’s actually a piano player. He’s played with La India. He’s actually played piano with the Tito Puente Orchestra. He played with Jimmy Bosch. He’s played with a bunch of -JJ: He actually was married to my daughter, too, (inaudible). CF: Edwin? JJ: Edwin Sanchez, yeah. CF: No kidding. The piano player? JJ: Yeah, he’s the father of my granddaughter, yeah. CF: No shit. Edwin was? JJ: Yeah. CF: Wow. I didn’t know that. Because he’s married -- he got married -- JJ: I’m ending this interview. (laughs) CF: Yeah, because I actually -- he got married again. [00:30:00] I didn’t know that. JJ: Yeah, he got married again. CF: I didn’t know that. JJ: Yeah, Nyla is his daughter. CF: Ah, okay. Yeah, Edwin is one of those guys that came out and, you know, people like Mike Rivera, this kid that just died [Richie Biyo?] was one -- JJ: Yeah, [Damon Rodriguez?] was -- 19 �CF: Right, the [tres?] player, your cousin. Yeah, they were all involved. I mean, I had four of -- so he had came out with a bunch of bands. But a lot of the kids that came out of those groups are actually -- as a matter of fact, there’s this record company that actually just reissued all their albums called [Numero Uno?], the record label. And they actually wrote the whole history. And they actually -- I got into some shit with them, you know, because they were out to make money. It wasn’t a thing of them trying to produce [this thing?]. They all wrote -- make money, and they actually wrote a historical analysis of the whole music scene back in the ‘70s, and I actually criticized them because the actual what they put out was not [00:31:00] really the truth. You know, they were talking about the music of the bands from the Puerto Rican Congress were like the top bands out here and they weren’t. Because, you know, there were like bands even back in the ‘50s, the music bands that were like -- when we were kids, you know, [Un Maquaeño?], [Felipe La Grande Sonora?], there was a whole bunch of groups that were playing. And you know, these were like little kids. And so their sound was okay. It was mediocre, but there was already bands already in place that were playing [some main?] music. But that’s just part of the growth and the development of us living in the city. JJ: Okay, now what about -- were you familiar with some of the dances that St. Michael’s was -- CF: Oh yeah. They used to have -- you know, just to think about that, and it’s kind of interesting that. You know, and I actually asked Jesus Rodriguez about this, how the church would treat us [00:32:00] as parishioners. 20 �JJ: Who is Jesus Rodriguez? CF: Jesus Rodriguez was one of the leaders of the church, of the Catholic church in Chicago. He was [cursillistas?]. We used to have like [cursillos?] which actually were like religious instructions and educational retreats that actually would actually educate people on religious affairs. And so he was one of the [cursillistas?] and was also a leader in the band -- the band -- a leader in the church. And so he was involved in the St. Michael’s church and, you know, it’s kind of almost as close to a priest as possible because what they would do is they would have masses, and the priests were basically not -- they were not Spanish-speaking priests. So the priest would do the mass in Latin or in English, and then Jesus Rodriguez would actually translate, you know, what was being said. But the interesting thing about that is that mostly [00:33:00] all the churches would never allow the Puerto Ricans to have mass in the big church. They would always have us do, you know, trying to treat us like second class citizens. They would always have us have our masses either in the school building next door or in the basement of the school building. Never in the big church. And it wasn’t until years later that -- JJ: At St. Michael’s they -- the Puerto Ricans did not go to the -- CF: The main church. JJ: They had to -- CF: They went to -- they had mass in the building right next door, which is like on the side, remember? Because I used to go there. They said, “Get going.” I sent coffee for free, man. I would go there. I would go to the big church and then 21 �right after that I would go and get some donuts and stuff, and that’s how they -and they used to pack, you know, they used to have two masses. I think one at 10:00 and one at 11:00, you know, to accommodate everybody. JJ: So when you say pack, I mean, how many -- CF: I would say that each mass it was probably about 150, 200 people. [00:34:00] In one setting with the kids, the whole family, because it’s whole families church, you know. It’s the mother, the wife, the father, and the kids. And so they would all go to church. And then they would have the mass, and then they would go down to the basement. But never you would ever have church in the big church. It was never there. And it wasn’t until later, and then they would have, like, major dances at St. Michael’s, and they would have to have them in the gym, the high school gym. And that’s really where we had the dances, and people come out, and they -- JJ: Did a lot of people come out dancing? CF: Yeah, a lot of people came out to the dances. They, you know, had Black bands, and -- JJ: About how many people came out? CF: I would say three or four hundred people. They would come from other concilios just to actually support, you know, whatever fundraising event. So people would, you know, if the Concilio Numero Uno had an event, and you were from this Concilio, you would go there, and that’s how they began to share [00:35:00] with each other in terms of support. So it was kind of like a tight-knit family based on 22 �this religious order, religious influence. So Jesus Rodriguez was one of those people that actually was one of the church leaders. JJ: [And?] helped to organize the -- CF: Yeah, he helped to organize the thing at St. Michael’s, but he was also involved in the archdiocese. They had a committee called the Spanish Speaking Committee, which is actually a part of the archdiocese, and what they would do is that they would train and give training to Puerto Ricans that came. I think they even provided in some cases housing for them to live there -- you know, they were like single men -- to live there. And, you know, just basically helped people make the transition from the island to here in terms of understanding how things function around here. Because a lot of these folks that came from Puerto Rico, man, came straight from the countryside. You know, probably didn’t even live in the city in there, [and from?] the island. So they came straight from the [00:36:00] countryside to this big, major city. And you could imagine, you know, being lost if you didn’t have the right orientation. JJ: Okay, so now this is people that really were not going to the grammar school. They were going to public school, but they were attending the mass, and a lot of the activities in the -- CF: Yeah, because the -- JJ: But what was going on inside -- go ahead. CF: No because, you know, back in -- I mean, I don’t think people really could have afforded to send their kids to Catholic school. The ones that did, you know, because if you look at the average family back in those days, you probably had 23 �families that -- it wasn’t just a boy and a girl. You had five, six, seven. And my situation was the same situation for a lot of people where, you know, your family was like your father and your mother, and you had like maybe four sisters and three brothers, so it was like six, seven, or eight of you. So what the father would do is that he would leave to come to Chicago or wherever it is he was [00:37:00] going to come to the United States because it was basically -- I mean, as far as they went west was Chicago. You know, they’d start out in New York and then they’d start exploring other areas, you know, like Cleveland, Philadelphia, east Chicago, Lorraine, Milwaukee. And so the father would come first, and then he would send for the mother. And once he got settled, he would send for the mother and maybe two or three kids. And then the other kids would stay with their grandparents. I was one of those. Me and my young sisters were raised by my grandparents. And then later, years later, then we actually came. And that was the story of a lot of us that, you know, that the father and the mother could not afford to bring all the kids, so they brought them piecemeal by piecemeal, one or two at a time. And so you had families with a lot of kids. It wasn’t this thing of birth control or controlling population. It was like, you know, they come as they pop. They come as they pop. And so you had large families, so a lot of families [00:38:00] either the kids, what they did as soon as they turned to a certain age that they could work, a lot of them would drop out of school and go work with their father or in the factory distributing. JJ: Were they encouraged to work? 24 �CF: Well I think that they were encouraged to work. You know, I think that -- I don’t know. A lot of people would say, “Well, you know, education’s the way out,” but I think that a lot of -- in terms of people were living in such poverty that every little dollar helped. So as soon as, you know, and so the kid who was already 14-, 15, 16-year-old who came here and went to school. I mean, I have photographs of my sisters being like eight, nine, ten years old, you know, I have a class picture of them. And being in the same classroom were kids that were like 13, 14 years of age. All in the same school. So you know, you’ve got a 13-, 14-year-old, and you’ve got them going to class with kids that are eight, nine, and ten years old, after a while that’s going to frustrate [00:39:00] a young kid. JJ: Why were they -- CF: Because of the fact that there was no bilingual programs, and you actually had all these Latino kids in the same classroom. I don’t know how it was done, but you had kids that were like 13, 14, 15. By the time they got to be 15, 16 years old and they were old enough to work, they would just go work, and the figure, you know, “School ain’t going to do nothing for me. I won’t be able to catch up.” Plus, a lot of these kids also came from the countryside. And you know, that whole thing of orientation of, you know, pursuing education, higher education, I don’t think it was in the minds of a lot of these kids. And their parents did not know what -- many of them didn’t even finish high school. Even grammar school. I know my mom went to school up to the third grade. So yeah, you know, people that were uneducated, who did not know, had no sort of idea, but a lot of the parents did. A lot of the parents pushed for [00:40:00] you know, “My kids are 25 �going to do better.” And they kept pushing, and did all they can to make sure that their kids got an education and went on to high school and on to college and so forth. And so some -- it paid off for some of us. JJ: And what about St. Michael’s? You said you went to St. Michael’s High School. What was the population there? CF: Well St. Michael’s High School when I was there was like -- I was there ’65, ’66. It was, you know, it wasn’t coed. It was boys and girls, and it was really integrated. It was Blacks, whites, you had, you know, the Italians from Taylor Street. You had Puerto Ricans that were coming from, you know, because it wasn’t just kids from the neighborhood. They would come in from different areas. So you had the white kids, you had Italian kids, you had Black kids that came in from Cabrini-Green, and so people who could afford to send their kids there would send them. Because they had a grammar school and they had a high school. And so [00:41:00] it was an integrated setting. JJ: Okay, now going back a little bit during Newberry and that -- because there were -- we talked about the social clubs, but there were also neighborhood clubs, right? At that time. CF: Well the social clubs were the neighborhood clubs. JJ: The social clubs were the neighborhood clubs. CF: Right. That’s what I was talking about. JJ: Didn’t they call them street clubs too? They were -- CF: Well, you know, you probably had these clubs that actually -- JJ: I’m talking about like the Caballeros and the -- 26 �CF: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re talking about the youth clubs. JJ: The youth clubs. CF: Yeah, the clubs that -- JJ: Those were different. CF: Yeah, those were different. Those were like made up of young youngsters -- JJ: And how did they form? How did they -- CF: Well, you know, you actually -- JJ: The Continentals, you were a member of -- CF: Right, right. The Continentals was a group of -- you know, basically it was a group of kids that hung out, you know, they hung out together, and they decided to form their own club. Now, we used to be the Continentals, and we used to hang out at Lincoln Boys Club. And, you know, it was [00:42:00] [Danny Rodriguez?], [Juan Columbus?], kids that hang out together and, you know, so Danny was one of the people that actually formed the Continentals, and it's kind of interesting because, you know, we used to identify each other with these sweaters. Our sweaters was kind of like the American flag. It was red, white, and blue, and we had an emblem, and the emblem meant something for something. So we used to -- it was kind of like an organized kind of thing where we had a youth worker from the Boys Club helping us organize ourselves, pay dues, bring in money, and raise money, buy our sweaters, do events, and so forth. So it’s kind of like a youth social organization. Then you had the YMCA where they had your group, the [Alloys?] were there. Then you had the older guys that -- and you know, I know a lot of people equate these guys with being 27 �gangs, but I used to call them clubs anyway. But then you had the older guys, which were the Black Eagles and the Paragons, and those guys, they formed because [00:43:00] of this thing of protection. They used to get beat up all the time, and they decided to form the groups, and they decided they were not going to take an ass whooping anymore. Because they used to get, you know, it used to be a lot of -- back in those days there was a thing with rumbles and, you know, knives and chains. It wasn’t this thing of automatic rifles and guns, and that’s how you get things done. You drive by and you shoot. Back in the days, none of us had cars. So you couldn’t do no drive-bys. JJ: Yeah, so you said that they were tired, they were not going to take this anymore. CF: Right, you know -- JJ: What were they tired of? CF: Well, you know, I think that there was a lot of conflict, you know, given the fact that we were moving into these communities that were already occupied by already other immigrants that had been here, Irish, Italians, Germans, and we’re coming into those neighborhoods because as we were coming in, a lot of them began to freak out. And they decided to do the white flight. You know, it was either Blacks or Puerto Ricans that were coming in, and they decided to move out. [00:44:00] But even the ones that stayed, actually they always felt that, you know, it’s like every immigrant’s got to shit on the next immigrant that comes over. And so, you know, a lot of these immigrants that, you know, that they went through the same shit that we went through. And even though we were American citizens, we went through the same experiences that a lot of immigrants went 28 �through. Back in those days, Puerto Ricans were being picked up and we were being held as immigrants because they didn’t have any papers. And, you know, we were getting treated the same when people realized and found out, “Well, these are Puerto Ricans. They are American citizens. They don’t need to have papers.” I mean, that’s documented for a fact, that a lot of Puerto Ricans actually experienced that. And they, you know, even though we’re American citizens, we got treated the same way as many of the immigrants are being treated today. So you had these things where, you know, the abuses, and you had -- and yet our parents would take that kind of stuff, and say, you know, “Don’t rock the boat. [00:45:00] We’ve come here to work,” or, you know, humble, quiet people. You know, they had that attitude. They didn’t want any trouble. But I think that the kids, you know, as soon as you became part of the -- and integrated into the society and began to form our little cliques and neighborhoods -JJ: And there were a lot of them. You mentioned several names. CF: Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of them. There were like the Latin Kings started, even though the Latin Kings had become a universal gang, you know, all over the country. But the Latin Kings started here, and they actually started, you know, in Humboldt Park west side. But back in our area, we had the Black Eagles and we had the Paragons. And those guys were kind of like older guys and, you know, we kind of looked up to them. But it was a thing that -- it’s not like today. Today you have this territory, and you had these, like, you know, “You don’t wear my color and I don’t wear yours.” There’s this whole thing about colors and so forth. But back in the days, [00:46:00] the older guys would look out for us, you know? 29 �And we actually couldn’t wait until we could be part of their thing. And so it was kind of like a family nucleus. JJ: So if you were in a different club, would they still would not fight against you? CF: They were not fighting against -- we’re not fighting against each other. I mean, the ones we were fighting against were the aggressive, you know, the white gangs, the Italian gangs. Like back in our neighborhood, we had that place called Roma’s, you know, Roma’s Pizzeria. And a lot of them white boys there, you know, they wanted to whip our asses and stuff, until the same thing that I was mentioning with the gypsies, they came out, and they would kick our asses. And then all of a sudden, we became the majority, and we actually had -- we shut them down. You know, they got shut down, and so -- but there was a lot of conflicts back in those days, so a lot of the guys actually formed these clubs in order to protect themselves. And they were not about to do, you know, like, take a slap in the face and keep on walking. They were just going to confront. And they were young people, you know? And young folks are not going to take that [00:47:00] crap, you know? You get this -- think that you will live forever and no one could ever mess with you, and that kind of a thing. So I think that that’s how that whole thing with the social clubs. Now every social club -- the Black Eagles had -- back in the days, that was the thing, the sweaters, you know? Everyone had a sweater. The Paragons had the sweater. I think that they had the same color you guys had. They were black and purple. And the Young Lords are like black and purple. They were what, black and pink? That was the Paragons? JJ: Yeah. 30 �CF: We had red, blue, and black. The Black Eagles were black and white. JJ: Your colors were what again? CF: Blue, red, and white, just like the American -- yeah, with the stripe. And you know, the sweaters were kind of cool. That was what identified us, when you went to, like, you went to dances and you went to sock hops, we would have our sweaters folded, you know. It was just an interesting kind of a situation which is totally different from -- JJ: But people were not fighting each other. CF: No, ain’t nobody -- nobody was fighting each other. JJ: And you had said, you know, fighting against -- so it was like a [00:48:00] fight against the whites. CF: The whites, the Italians, whoever was kind of messing. And then later on, it just got crazy, man. It just got crazy. You know, the drug thing came about. JJ: So what does that mean? What do you mean, the drug came about? CF: Well you know, I mean, I think that we all noticed it when all of a sudden the country, you know, when things got crazy in the ‘60s in this country, you know, and all of a sudden you just saw a lot of militancy and a lot of radical politics, and everybody was up in arms. And all of a sudden, you began to see this influx of drugs in the community, man. It’s like all of a sudden people started, you know, you started seeing people getting high on heroin. All of a sudden out of nowhere, the heroin was kind of like, you know, and wherever it is, I mean, there’s a lot of theories. JJ: Was there a lot of heroin going around at that time? Or was it just -- 31 �CF: Well, it came about. It came about that in the 19-- mid-’60s, [00:49:00] ’66, ’67, all of a sudden these communities began to see a lot of drugs going into the -- JJ: (inaudible) there’s an epidemic of cocaine, and at that time there was an epidemic of heroin. CF: Yeah, heroin. It was a lot of heroin that was going around. It was cheap. You know, people were doing it. They’re smoking marijuana. There was a lot of alcohol. But a lot of it that I think did the most damage was the heroin. The heroin actually, you know, caught up with a lot of people, and a lot of people just went in and never recovered from it. And so unfortunately, I used heroin at one time, you know, back in the days. And I am not ashamed to say it. But I actually -- I guess I must have some good angels that actually guided me in the right direction because I could have easily become hooked too. But I chose not to go that route. But I know a lot of folks that went that route, and they used -- JJ: Well you also had an education that helped, too. Now you went -- CF: To what? JJ: Through the [00:50:00] St. Michael’s, and then you went and got -- CF: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Then you went to college. CF: Yeah, I did. But you know, but my education -- JJ: In fact, what do you -- you have a master’s degree? CF: Yeah, I got a master’s. But I didn’t use any of that shit. I didn’t use any of my degrees. JJ: But that contributed. 32 �CF: Oh yeah, yeah. I actually, you know, my thing was that I didn’t get up at St. Michael’s was -- JJ: You don’t think it contributed at all? CF: What? JJ: You don’t think that helped you at all? CF: Oh, it helped me. Man, I’ll tell you where it helped me the most. When we were part of the program. I actually went to, you know, like to me, I am actually working on a theme right now. I have a writing -- creative writing group that meets once a week, and we’re working on a theme on freedom right now. And so I wrote a piece as the group leader saying, you know, trying to remember well what is the first time that I really sensed freedom? Because freedom, you know, some people’s freedom are other people’s burden. Because you’ve got someone saying that, you know, I’m going to free this country. I’m going to build a railroad, you know, all the way from here [00:51:00] to the end of San Francisco. But that means that -- who’s going to build that railroad? You’re going to build that railroad, you’re going to make the money, you’re going to exploit the workers, and you’re going to bring in work, and you’re going to give them like ten cents an hour or a nickel an hour. You’re going to exploit them. And they’re going to build the railroad for you. And you’re going to take all this glory. So you have the freedom to do whatever you want to do. You have the freedom to scam and to rip off people. And so I wrote a piece about my first taste of freedom. And my first taste of freedom was going to grammar school and being in the same classroom, you know, throughout the whole day. In the morning, you’d be in the 33 �same. Then when you go to high school, all of a sudden, you go to different classes. You get out and you go to woodshop, you go to gym, and just like being in college. You have that independence. So with me, it was great shit. You know, you get to go outside and go to lunch, woodshop, and then at the rest of the day I would be cutting class with the rest of my homies, you know. Be out there, “Y’all, come on. Let’s go. Let’s go hang out.” [00:52:00] And so that caught up with me. So I got kicked out of Waller High School, out of the public school. So I got another chance, and I went to St. Michael’s, and I also got kicked out of St. Michael’s because I actually told a story about me being a bully. I was a bully. I used to take, you know, all the little white kids, and I would say, you know, “Give me your money or I’ll kick your ass.” So I would take quarters and dimes. I was like the tough guy, you know? And I was a really bully. I mean, I am sure that people see me now -- I mean, I’m just like -- I’m going to be 63 years old. But if people see me now, and they see me on TV doing all the stuff that I do, I’m sure that some of those kids that I actually took their money from when I was in school are saying, “That son of a bitch took my money. He actually bullied my ass,” you know? So I used to bully these kids. And one time, you know, and I used to work. I used to have jobs working at Tom’s Shoe Store, like on weekends, so I was always dressed up really well, and had money. I mean, I always worked as a kid. You know, I worked washing windows or [00:53:00] doing whatever. And I remember one time this kid came to me and says -- I got into a thing with a kid in the classroom, and so I told this kid to pick up, you know, so kick him and he knocked the books over. And I told him to pick it up. “Pick up 34 �my book.” So this other kid who actually happened to be another tough kid who actually happened to probably be in another white gang, told the other kid, you know, “Don’t pick up shit for him.” And so I said, “Oh yeah? I’m going to talk to you later.” So we went out to lunch, and I slapped this kid. And this kid said, “I’m coming back tomorrow and I’m going to shoot your ass,” you know? So I said, “Oh yeah?” So I went and I got all the guys from the neighborhood, Richie, [Bobokin?], all the young kids that, you know, were looking for a fight. I said, “Hey man, this guy said he was going to shoot me. So you guys are going to come down.” (This is a story -- I don’t know if you ever heard it.) So I actually had all these guys come down from the neighborhood. Because back when I was in St. Michael’s High School, this was like ’67, ’66, [00:54:00] they all came, and they all came the next day to the school from Armitage and Halsted and Sheffield, and but the kid never showed up to class. So these guys were ready to fight. So as soon as they let school out, those guys started beating up everybody. They beat up the nuns. They beat up the priests, beat up the students. They just -- anybody would kick their ass. So everybody got whipped that day. And so the next day they brought me into the office and said, you know, “You’re lucky we don’t call the police on you because, you know, what happened here yesterday was pretty bad. And so what we’re going to do is we’re going to expel you. We’re going to kick you out of school.” And that was just another strike against me. And so I was running out of strikes. So then from there, I got an opportunity to go to Argonne National Laboratory. And Argonne National, that’s when we were all there. You and a bunch of us, and it’s kind of interesting 35 �because I was just talking about that this week, yesterday, in that group meeting, in terms of how [00:55:00] it was back in the days, how we were freaking out. Because they used to call us hardcore students. JJ: What was Argonne National Laboratory? CF: Argonne National Laboratory was the national laboratory – (dog barks) hey, stop. It’s in Lamont, and this is where they actually [spotted the Chicago?], part of the atomic – (dog barking) stop! Part of the atomic energy commission. This was like where they split the first atom, and this was a laboratory out in Lamont. And they have an atomic accelerator out there. So what they did is they actually -back in the days, in terms of providing opportunities to minorities, young minority students, they actually set up a program there to help students not only finish their GED but also to get them some kind of skills in terms of learning how to work. Learning to work. JJ: This was for at risk youths. CF: Yeah, for, you know, for at risk -- (dog barks) hey, stop! For, you know, youth that were at risk. [00:56:00] So a lot of us -- we were all at risk. As a matter of fact, they used to call us hardcore students, or hardcore people. You were there. And so what they did is they had all these, like, minority young people going out there. You had members of the Blackstone Rangers, the Disciples. As a matter of fact, the [peace to our nation disciples?] when they were out there, they were in peace. Because you know in Chicago, they were at war with each other. So there were us, you know, and so I know the scientists were going crazy because every time they looked out the window, they saw these, like, you know, young 36 �Blacks and Puerto Ricans with berets and with different color sweaters, and they were trying to figure, “What the hell is going on?” But I actually took advantage of that program, and what I did is I actually signed up to be in the photo department. So at 17 years old in the photo department, they took me under their wings, gave me a camera. You know, I used to wash prints as a job, and then in the afternoon I would take classes for GED. I know [00:57:00] a lot of you guys did a lot of different things. I heard stories about you guys sleeping in closets and shit like that when you were supposed to be working. But you guys were abusing your privilege. But (laughter) you guys were abusing your privilege, but I took advantage of it because I actually had an opportunity to learn the skill of photography. And what I did is they gave me a camera and gave me all this film, and it was like really, really nice folks who were there. JJ: Who was the president or the teacher? CF: Well, you know, the guy who used to run that whole program was Mike Lawson. He used to be the guy who was in charge of making sure that he coordinated -- JJ: And where did he come from, Mike Lawson? CF: Mike, you know, Mike was kind of like a social worker. He was probably involved with the church, and that’s how we met him. You know, he was a youth worker with folks out here. So that’s how you got us all -- JJ: I think you grabbed me [and pulled in?] or something. CF: Who? JJ: You or somebody who was -- 37 �CF: It was Danny, I think. Danny was the one that got all of us in that program. So there was a bunch of us, you know. [00:58:00] I had photographs in that place, you know. I remember [Sexto?] used to be in there. You, myself, Danny, and it was so weird because I know -- I don’t know, there was a couple of times where we missed our rides or our buses and we had to go down to [U Chicago?] and grab the bus there to go there. But sometimes there was this brother there, this African American guy who used to drive. He was not part of our program, but he used to give us a ride. And the guy, you know, like before he’d go, he’d take a couple of swigs of vodka, and he’d be driving on the road, and he’d be late. So he’d be driving on the exit ramp trying to beat the traffic. It was crazy. It was you know, like, being young and, you know, you get into all those adventures and stuff. JJ: But it was while we were trying to get our GEDs. CF: Yeah, we’re all trying to get our GED, and I think it helped me a lot because then what I did is I left that program, and then I turned to junior college, to Central [YMCA?] college, and I actually eventually got my GED. Because I was almost like three months before [00:59:00] grad. When I got kicked out, I was going to be graduating three months later. And right before graduation, I got kicked out. So, you know, I went to [U Central YMCA?], and then from there I transferred to Northern Illinois University. And from there I came back to the city, and I went to UIC. Got a BA, and then I got a master’s, a master’s degree in criminal justice. But I didn’t use any of that stuff. I actually just used the education and I moved on and did other things. 38 �JJ: Now, the Young Lords came out, you know, were like more [to the actual ones?] they were one of the groups in the neighborhood. But then they kind of transformed into a political group. And it was right around that time that they -you know what I’m talking about. CF: Right. Well, you know, back in the time, I mean, as you begin to get older, you begin to get an education, you begin to be exposed to a lot of different things, and you know, this is the time that, you know, we had people like Malcolm X. [01:00:00] We had people who actually were really rocking the boat, you know, and the whole country was in disarray. The hypocrisy of this country was coming out, and it was being put on display. People were just kind of like just reacting, you know. The youth were rebelling against their parents, and they were rebelling against, you know, the status quo. Black people wanted rights. The whole civil rights movement. It was a lot of stuff going on. And so that also touched us, because we were part -- you know, it wasn’t that we were, like, separate. You know, we also had our own issues that we were dealing with, and one of the issues that we were dealing with was this whole issue of being displaced, being in a community that we had lived there for a long time. Because you know what? I mean, I don’t hardly hear this anymore, but the whole phrase of the hood. The hood. That’s the way we used to identify our community. You know, we’re going, “I see you in the hood. I’ll be back.” You don’t see that anymore because I don’t think people really have those ties [01:01:00] with neighborhoods now. Nowadays, you know, it’s like a lot of these neighborhoods are very, you know, people will live -- they live there three or four years, and then 39 �they move on. So there’s never really that relationship that you develop as looking at your community, as being part of your family, part of your home, your house. And that’s the way we looked at our neighborhood. You know, our neighborhood was this kind of neighborhood that, you know, like I said, when we would see people, like, far away, we’re on a [picnic?] you’d say, “Hey, I’ll see you back in the hood. I’ll see you on the block,” you know? And we knew when we were talking about the block, we would be back in the neighborhood. So there was this, like, emotional, spiritual tie to the community. And so -- but it was great. It was a great -- I mean, I really loved growing up in Lincoln Park. It was really, truly integrated, even though the majority of the people, after a while, after the ’62, ’63, ’64, it became more predominantly Puerto Rican. [01:02:00] It was still an integrated community, but the loving thing about it is that it was kind of like a village. And the village was that everybody looked out for everybody. Everybody knew everybody. I remember, you know, if I did something, you know, Luis, the owner of the grocery store, would say, “I’m going to tell your dad.” And shit, when my dad got home, you know, like he’d say, “Come here. Luis told me you did this.” You know, like, “And you better, you know, you’re punished,” or whatever. So it was that kind of a thing where people look out for each other, and, you know, kids would be out there playing. You have all, you know, Adams Playground. You had the People’s Park. You had that little Bauler playground, the little playground down Halsted. It was called the Bauler Playground. You had Arnold Park. So you had all these little, you know, Oscar Meyer, we would hang 40 �out. So you know, there was a lot of baseball, a lot of recreation areas that we could hang out. And it was a great place to live in terms of -JJ: [01:03:00] So you’re painting -- I’m looking at geography now. So you’re talking about the Bauler Playground on Burling and Armitage? CF: Right, Burling and Armitage. JJ: And then the Oscar Meyer playground all the way on Clifton. CF: On Clifton. And then you had the Adams Playground, which is right south of -beyond St. Theresa. JJ: Beyond St. Theresa’s. And then you were talking about the Lincoln Park. CF: Then you had Lincoln Park, which is the bigger park. JJ: So this is a big area that we’re talking about. CF: Oh yeah, it was a big area. JJ: And that’s primarily Puerto Rican at that time. CF: That’s primarily Puerto Rican, and it was even extended all the way up to Wrigley Field, up in, you know, right around -- JJ: Addison. CF: Addison and Halsted and Clark. And so, you know, Lakeview, Addison [Bill?], which is called Addison [Bill?] today, was up, even up in that area. So, you know, Puerto Ricans had expanded in all these areas, and so, you know, it was really great. You know, at times you felt like this was your neighborhood, [01:04:00] and this is the way you ran, and then all of a sudden -- JJ: So you mean like the north side of Chicago. CF: Right. 41 �JJ: The north. CF: It was kind of like the mid-north of Chicago, and then, you know, all of a sudden lo and behold, there was a lot of things that were going on where the city was doing all this planning. You know, we’re definitely, you know, this would probably be in the era of the Black Panther party. This is part of the radical politics. And, you know, and then we’re beginning to see the consequences that were taking place as a result of realtors and developers and speculators coming in and buying up property, raising the rent, moving people out. And after a while, you know, we began to see that this is the plan. There was a plan of moving people out, and this is how the whole thing with the Young Lords came about. JJ: And so you also became active within the Young Lords. CF: Yeah, I became active. JJ: So a lot of the different groups, also -- CF: Yeah, but I -- JJ: Because that was the whole community. CF: Right. But I was already, you know, [01:05:00] in order to -- to be part of the Young Lords is the thing, because I know that you probably had to talk some of the guys into it. Because a lot of the guys were, you know, they had to be educated. A lot of the guys did not have the discipline -- did not have the discipline of knowing, you know, what this is all about. All they know is like, “Hey, who’s fucking with us? Let’s go kick their ass.” JJ: Exactly. 42 �CF: That’s how, you know, I would describe it. I would describe these guys, and they were not -- I mean, I was already had begun to, you know, by the fact that I was going to college, I had begun to get exposed to a lot of these, like, writers and philosophers and activists and all kinds of different politics. It was a really easy transition for me to get in. So, you know, I jumped on board. Actually -- JJ: Well you were saying that for the other people, it was more they were just there because they had been in the Young Lords. CF: They had been in the Young Lord gang -- JJ: And they were kind of following -- CF: The Young Lord Club, not the gang. The club. JJ: Oh yeah, the club. And then [01:06:00] so they’re following the club structure. CF: Exactly. JJ: And then that’s why they were able to stay involved through the construction, but we also had other Young Lords that were already politicized. CF: Right, right. You had some that were politicized (audio cuts out) those get to the other guys. Not everybody got it, because not everybody actually fell in the cliques. A lot of people said, “You guys are crazy. You know, they’re nuts. Let me just go back and hit my pipe, and I’ll be happy, you know, with what I’m doing.” But I think that a lot of folks actually decided to jump on board, and then there was other people that came and jumped on board because of the fact that they couldn’t believe what the hell we were doing. I mean, they couldn’t believe that, you know, even the -- I mean, when you read this history, you know, you had [penal elements?] coming from New York that actually are individuals that 43 �already, you know, college graduate or attending college or who had a totally different experience because the Puerto Rican experience in New York [01:07:00] is a longer experience because they began coming there at the turn of the century. And all of a sudden, you know, you keep hearing about these guys, the Young Lords. They’re taking over churches. They’re doing all this fighting and politicizing. And so, you know, a lot of people took notice. And so you began to attract people also that were involved in radical politics who also came and joined the group. JJ: What were some of the things that the Young Lords did there that -- CF: Well some of the things that the Young Lords did there -- well I remember, you know, they’re taking over this church because before the church was taken over, I used to work in the church. I used to be -- there used to be a program called the Joint Youth Development Corporation, and that was run by the city. And at the church, at the Armitage Methodist Church, [Mochito Alvez?] was kind of like the assistant director, so we had a little center there. And I used to run the recreational center, the gym, and [01:08:00] I had all these kids playing basketball. And so I was already involved and doing social programming, you know, in terms of athletics. And so I was young myself, and so I guess I got hired because I used to play baseball with Mochito, and he got me the job. And so that was in college. So but then the transition came where -- and I remember the reverends that were there. It was kind of interesting. They had a reverend who was Cuban. His name was Herrera I think. JJ: Sergio. 44 �CF: Sergio. Sergio Herrera. And it’s kind of interesting because his dad -- they were Cubans. They were Cuban immigrants that came, and they actually fled the whole thing that happened in Cuba with Castro. And I remember one year -- this was before the Young Lords. This was a story that there was this white guy who also got hired to -- JJ: You mean before the Young Lords were political. CF: Right, right, right. Before the Young Lords even took over this church. So we had this guy who was crazy. It was some white guy that actually [01:09:00] came in. He was an instructor. And I guess he was actually teaching kids about expression. So he actually told people, “I want you to go up to people, and when you go up in front of them, just start screaming. You know, ahh. You know.” So they went and did that to Sergio’s father, and I thought the old man was going to have a heart attack, you know? Because they all went and started going like that to the old man. But it was just kind of interesting the kind of events that were going there. It was just purely social, you know. I used to, like, have the kids play basketball. You know, I used to get films about baseball. So there was nothing really political, nothing out of the ordinary. Just like, you know, being another boy’s club, another YMCA. But then the Young Lords came and they took over. And I remember the painting of the murals. That was like very interesting because it was the first time that, you know, we changed some murals on the wall that represented revolutionary figures. [01:10:00] You know, you had Adelita, who was a Mexican revolutionary. You had Pancho Zapata, who was another one. You had Emeterio Betances, Albizu Campos, and Lolita Lebron 45 �who were like, you know, revolutionary symbols. And then the biggest symbol was when you entered the side door, you had a big picture of Che Guevara. And at the time the Che Guevara picture was painted on the wall, the Herreras were still living in that church. They were living there. And I know they freaked out. Because they left Cuba running away from, you know, from this Communist tyrant, supposedly the enemy of the people, and all of a sudden, you know, here they’re back facing, you know, the same situation. But some of the programs that were actually being offered at that church were like health programs. You know, there was a health clinic that was provided because at the time, you know, a lot of the folks, even though you had the Cook County Hospital, [01:11:00] there was really not a lot of health programs out there. You know, infant mortality was probably at a very high risk. So we were providing people at least with a basic examination, a basic –- yeah. JJ: If you can hold that thought for one second, the health program. Okay, I just did want to ask you about [Samuel Herrera?]. Because yeah, I believe he was transferred later to Los Angeles or something like that. But so there was a Cuban congregation, you were saying, also? CF: I don’t even know what the congregation was, because I never went to the church. JJ: But he was Cuban, and he had just -- and he fled Fidel Castro. CF: Right. He fled. JJ: Now, did he ever talk about that? 46 �CF: Nah, he never really -- he never really got into discussion with him. He was a very mild-mannered guy. He, you know, and I don’t think he really wanted to rock the boat either. Because I don’t think he ever got into confrontation with any of us. So he never really rocked the boat. He came out of that whole Methodist church thing. And again, he was also working with the late Bruce Johnson [01:12:00] back in the day. So I know -- I don’t know what kind of relationship they had. I know that he was very mild-mannered with me, and so we talked, but we never really talked politics. But I did know that his parents and himself came out of Cuba. And I think he probably had already been here, because he already spoke English. But his parents had just probably had just left Cuba because of the fact that, you know, what was going on there. JJ: Were there a lot of Cubans in that area? CF: I don’t know -- no, there was not a lot of Cubans in that area. No, there was not a lot of Cubans in that area. It was mostly Puerto Ricans and Mexicans. But mostly Puerto Ricans. Cubans were, you know, not that many. And I don’t even know what the congregation was because I never went to church there. JJ: Getting back, okay, you were talking about the health program? CF: Yeah, you know, one of the programs that we established was a health clinic, and so basically you had some interns that were at the County Hospital, some coalitions were made, [01:13:00] and so they were coming in. They were providing at least basic examination. If they needed to make a referral to the hospital, they would do that. And so that was one of the services that were being provided that was not being provided anywhere. Because the only way people 47 �would even have any access to health is if they went to a private doctor or they went to the hospital. And in some cases, if they had no insurance, you know. So they would end up going to the county, or unless they got real sick, that’s the only way they would go to a doctor. But it was none of this stuff to do any prevention, you know, health prevention. I think that we began that whole process of trying to get people to start understanding that, you know, health is an issue that we should be afforded in terms of the people. You know, because without health, you know, you really have nothing when you’re sick. So that was one of the issues that -- one of the programs that came out of that. JJ: And how much did the people have to pay to -- CF: As far as I remember, it was nothing, [01:14:00] and it was real interesting because what they did is they turned the -- they turned some of the little rooms, they turned into like examination rooms. Like up in the office, there was one examination room. There was another examination room downstairs. And so basically, that’s how people came in. They came in whenever, you know, the clinic was open. People would come in, and they’d bring their kids. Their kids were checked, and if they needed any additional treatment, then they would be referred to the county or to another clinic or to a doctor. But it was bringing that basic health facilities to people in the community, which was unheard of because in the past, you probably would have to go to the clinic or go to a doctor, or you didn’t know how you were going. So that was one of the programs. The other program was this breakfast program. It was short lived. I used to run that program. And that program was actually adopted after the Panthers breakfast 48 �program. And we actually would get up in the morning. I had my sisters [01:15:00] be part of that program. We actually ended up cooking pancakes, and we actually, you know, had maybe about 14, 15, 16 kids that would come in before school. And we would feed them, and then we would actually not -- we would not give them any heavy dosage political classes. We would just do things like, for example, I would bring a map, and I would ask them, “Where in Puerto Rico is your family from?” “Oh, from Arecibo.” “Go up to the map and show us where Arecibo is.” You know, just real basic stuff in terms of creating conscious in terms of who they were as Puerto Ricans, right? And so that was that. The other thing that we also -JJ: I remember we would have crossing guards and all that. CF: The what? JJ: Crossing guards for the kids. CF: Well there was a crossing guard because the kids would stop in right before school. So they would be there like around 7:30. JJ: So the Young Lords would be the crossing guards. CF: We would be crossing -- make sure the kids got to the school because [01:16:00] they would have to go to either Arnold, or they would go to the other grammar schools in the area. So they would come in and get their breakfast. Then the other program was there was this relationship with the [people at the law office?] which actually opened at the same time. And so you would actually -- when everyone had a legal case, you would also refer them to the law clinic. So you 49 �know, there were some services that were being provided to folks in that community. JJ: And who was funding the Young Lords at that time? CF: Funding the Young Lords? Shit. You know, to be honest, that’s a good question. I think they were just getting funding from grassroots people. You know, we’re not getting -- there was no government funding. It was no, you know, no philanthropists were giving us, no foundations were giving us money. It was money that was coming in. I remember one time that we actually got donations because I mean, I still -- I think I still probably have letters [just towards?] the end of the Young Lords, [01:17:00] we actually were asking for donations of food. And I remember one time there was a company that brought in thousands, you know, a bunch of boxes of cereals, man. I don’t know if you remember that. And we had to get rid of that cereal because the rats were breaking into the boxes. And we had to start giving the cereals away. But we were getting like donations from stores, and dollars. And one time I even, you know, was the treasurer of the organization, holding onto all the money. Because what happened was that after a while, you know, our organization -- JJ: You’re the one that took the money, there? CF: I was the one that took the money, but I had to fight with a lot of you guys because everybody wanted money. So my thing was that after a while, things began to get a little shady because of all the repression that was coming down, and all the people getting arrested. JJ: What kind of repression? What do you mean? 50 �CF: Police aggression, you know. We were actually always being watched. It was always police cars parked. They were always taking notes. They were always watching. There was a lot of, [01:18:00] you know, confrontations with the police, and so what happened, every time that someone got arrested, we would have to go out there and try to get money to bail folks out of prison. That was the one way of how they neutralized the whole organization by actually continuing to have confrontation, arresting people, and, you know, having people arrested. And what happened to the point where a lot of people went underground, and I think you were one of those folks, is that you never, you know, kept your court dates. And so actually what they did is they issued fugitive arrest warrants for you guys for not showing up. And so you guys had to go underground, and that’s how the whole organization got neutralized and it got put out through that process. And you know, so you actually analyze all that, that how do you actually eliminate an organization is that you keep arresting the leadership and you neutralize the leadership, and the whole organization -- cut the head, and the rest of the organization just dies. [01:19:00] And so that’s what happened back in the days. You know, there was confrontations with the police all the time, you know. Even though, I mean, I heard stories about people throwing like, you know, we used to fight with water balloons. I mean, people on top of the church throwing water balloons at the cops. Somebody told me a story that they remember. I think when the church was taken over, they were throwing water balloons at the cops from the church. JJ: I don’t remember that. 51 �CF: Somebody told me that. They had some videos on that. But I never -- they never materialized. But those were some of the issues that -- the other interesting thing about this is that you had, you know, there was this whole movement of like there was the political representation, the aldermen and all the other folks that were in the city, who were actually demonizing us. You know, they actually -- I mean, because that’s another tactic of, you know, you’re either [01:20:00] with us, or you’re against us. And so if you’re against us, then we have to, like, demonize you. We have to make you look like you’re terrible people, that you’re going to cause harm to us, you’re going to cause harm to our neighborhood, our society. So there, you know, was all this fearmongering, or mongers going out and creating fear within the neighborhood. You know, like the aldermen, you know, was actually trying to pass ordinance trying to make sure that more repression or more laws or rules be placed against us because of, you know, like loitering rules and loitering laws. Because they kept saying that we were criminals. But in reality, how can you be a criminal? We are kids that grew up in their neighborhood. The people that live in their neighborhood are our families. So how is that family going to be afraid of us? Which was a key thing. That’s what backfired on them. So they could have actually continued this campaign of trying to discredit us, but, you know, we were part of that neighborhood. You know, people would know who we were. [01:21:00] It wasn’t like we just, you know, came from another planet and planted ourselves in that community to try to make changes. We were a part of growing up, and growing up in a community, and actually reacting to some of the consequences that were 52 �going on. And that was that whole gentrification and displacement process that began to happen. And that’s how, you know, you begin to get politicized with how the organization begins. And I think you started this thing when we came out of prison, and got this education, and then you tried to get everybody else on board. So that was the lesson to be learned. It was a short-lived lesson, but again, it was a life lesson. You know, and my life lesson is I tell people, “There’s nothing you can’t do if you were to put your mind to it,” you know? And you know, when I go out and I talk to young people, I mean, you know, you try to give kids an inspiration about what we did back in the days. Because nowadays, you know, [01:22:00] you’ve got all these organizations, and you’ve got all these groups, and there’s also things that you can fall back on, you know, so you’re not out there by yourself. I mean, we were out there. It was just us. And it wasn’t, you know, we were really faced with danger. I mean, some of our people were killed. It wasn’t a game. You know, the cops were serious. They was, you know, like the mayor, the order was shoot to kill. They were shooting to kill. You know, and they were not, you know, the majority of the police department were mostly whites. And they used to practice, you know, the tactics that were like very oppressive. They would pick up, you know, some of our guys and would actually drop them off in neighborhoods where the white gangs were. You know, they were doing this stuff all the time. And you know, I get it. That was making a comment with people, you know, needing to learn and to know about their history. A lot of these police officers and firemen that we had in the city department -- as a matter of fact, the new fire chief that just got appointed 53 �[01:23:00] fire chief in Chicago, he’s this Puerto Rican guy that’s been on the force for a long time. But, you know, back in the days, there were no Puerto Ricans. You know, hardly any Blacks in the fire department and the police department. They even had an age requirement, a height requirement, that to be a policeman you had to be a certain height. That was discriminatory because height has nothing to do with whether or not you can do the job or not. And it was just another obstacle from keeping us, in terms of being involved in the process, because if you look at a lot of Puerto Ricans and Latinos, we’re not tall. We’re short people. And so that whole requirement was fought, and it was fought hard. And people went to prison. People, you know, shed their blood. People shed their lives so we could open some doors to let folks like the guys that are on the police department and the fire department today. So a lot of these guys think that because they’re named Rodriguez and they’re good looking and they got a job on their own [01:24:00] they don’t understand that people fought for them to have their jobs, and they need to take that into account and appreciate what was being done back as a result of our movement, of our struggles, to open the doors for them. So. JJ: Okay. Later on, you were also involved with the whole question of AfroCaribbean, Puerto Rican -- CF: Yeah. I did. I mean, I think that the, you know, I wanted to -- JJ: And what are the other things -- CF: Yeah, well, you know, I went to school to -- I went to UIC -- JJ: (inaudible) 54 �CF: I went to UIC and I got a master’s, and I was out there, you know, trying to figure out what was the best for me. I even went to law school for like a year and a half at DePaul. That didn’t work out. I went and got a master’s in criminal justice. That didn’t work out. But I had already been to school, man. [01:25:00] I had already been exposed to that whole political process, that whole thing of radical politics and being involved, and being a radical myself. And so that drove me to who I am today in terms of dedicating my life to making sure that you fight discrimination, you fight exclusion, you fight all the oppression and all the things that keep people back. So, you know, throughout my whole career, I mean, I actually -- when I went to UIC, I actually got arrested with a bunch of folks, like 40 of us got arrested because we took over the president’s office. This is like right after the Young Lords. I had already started going to college, and I remember going -- me and [Scott Lopez?], [Rory Guerra?], [Rudy Lozano?], [Danny Solizo?], the aldermen, [01:26:00] got [Roberto Torres?], there was a bunch of us, like 40 of us. We went to meet with the president of the U of I, and we decided we ain’t going nowhere until we get a commitment from you that you’re going to, you know, recruit more Latinos in the school. Because we were there, but we wanted to make sure that when we left that there would be more people behind us. Because that was the whole thought process, you know? We tear the doors down, and we keep the doors open. And so the whole concept behind that whole boycott, that was I think in 1973 that we got arrested, was to make sure that the school would actually have a program that would recruit other Latinos. As a result of that, there’s a program called LARES, which is called the 55 �Latin American Recruitment Education Program at U of I. And it’s been there. It came out as a result of that struggle. So, you know, our actions have resulted in some positive things. So it wasn’t all done in vain. So everywhere I went, you know, I actually got involved. [01:27:00] You know, when I was in law school, we had a thing called the Latino Law Student Association, doing the same thing again. You know, we’re here, but if we make it fine, but we’ve got to keep that door open. And the doors have been maintained open. At least they tried to close it, but we actually had a little crack that, you know, it’s not closed all the way. And so I think a lot of, you know, a lot of people, a lot of people that went to law school, a lot of people that got degrees should understand that at one time, there was a lot of racism and discrimination that wouldn’t allow for them to go, you know, to go to school and to take advantage of those educational opportunities that are out there. So I kind of want to feel that I’m one of those that have, you know, that have contributed to making sure that these institutions, you know, have taken place. Like institutions like ASPIRA and [01:28:00] other groups that actually flourished afterwards. So it has, you know, it has been a thing, you know, where either I have actually got involved with the -- I went to work for the Equal Opportunity Employment Commission after I went to -- got out of college. And there, I fought, you know, we were fighting employment discrimination under Title 7, and so I actually went into government (audio cuts out) [us to get?], to fight racism under employment discrimination. And that was - and I did about ten years of that, but I was always involved with stuff that I was learning. I would always come back to the community and say, “We could do 56 �this. We could do that.” Got involved, during the time I was working with the commission, got involved in the Harold Washington campaign, which is an interesting, interesting thing. I mean, I was like -- I mean that was kind of like the highlight of this whole issue where we actually just turned this whole city upside down and created history by electing the first Black mayor of the city. And that was a hell of an experience of [01:29:00] being with that. And I remember when Harold got elected, when he won the primary, it was like -- it was an interesting thing because I remember working out of an office on Kinzie. Francisco DuPrey was there, [Antonio Delgado?], it was a bunch of us, and I remember everybody left the office the night of the primary, and you know, Jane Byrne had some gangbangers working, you know, with this guy [Correa?], and, you know, had some folks. And you know, I thought we were going to get shot one time, you know, because it was me and about three or four of us left. Everybody had gone to the primary party down at the McCormick, and these guys walked in. And you know, for a moment they got really scared that, you know, that these guys were going to retaliate. But -- because that, you know, they looked at it from the point of view of, you know, it’s us against them. You know, they didn’t see it as a political thing. It’s like, “Our guy lost, and now we’re going to shoot you.” You know, that kind of a thing. [01:30:00] So -- but that in itself was an interesting -- I mean, it was like the euphoria that was in the air, I’ve never seen it, you know, people in the street hugging, and people that didn’t know each other. I mean, it was really a sense of a great victory that actually came down. And as a result, we began to take advantage of it, you know. I know you gave one of your 57 �speeches. I remember seeing you up there at the Puerto Rican parade on the Harold Washington -JJ: I introduced Harold -- CF: Yeah, when you came and you gave an address, and you were talking about the Sandinistas, and I was saying, “Shit.” You know, I tried to, you know, we’re like talking, you know, this is a community festival, and he’s over there talking about oppression and the Sandinistas, and it’s because that was, you know, the time the Sandinistas were also there. So yeah, that was kind of -- JJ: You were in the audience? CF: I was in the audience, because that was -- I was in the audience, and I was like -- JJ: How was that? I mean, how was that -- CF: Oh no, it was well received. You know, it was well received. The whole thing with Harold being there. JJ: And everybody was wearing buttons, the Young Lords. CF: [01:31:00] Everybody was wearing the Young Lords button. I remember that Willie Colon or Tito Puente was the guy -- JJ: Willie Colon. CF: It was Willie Colon that was actually presented there, and so it was a hell of a thing. But we actually began to get involved. We got involved on, you know, I became a member of the Latino Commission. Through that, we began doing all kinds of different hearings. We got this whole program on infant mortality in the community. We began, you know, challenging resources into our community. We began to open doors for people to get into the political process, where people 58 �today, you know, are now congresspeople. They’re aldermen. One guy, he used to be the head of the commission just finished running for mayor in Chicago after being a state senator. So there was a bunch of us that actually took advantage, who had been involved in this whole struggle that actually became involved and just took it to another level and began to start heading departments [01:32:00] and getting involved in terms of creating things in the community, you know, like the Humbolt Park Vocational Center became one of those things that you actually brought to the community. So we began to actually open doors so people could begin to start taking, participating in the process. But that all comes from that Young Lords experience, that beginning way back then. So. JJ: Any final thoughts? Anything you want to -- CF: I don’t know what else the hell I could say, man. Besides the fact that I’m still fighting out here. You know, like, you know, because at this time I tell people, “Man, I should be right now, I just turned 63. I should be somewhere in a rocking chair, you know, drinking like coconut water out of a coconut.” But shit, the struggles continues, man. There’s always -- there’s never -- you know, not only you have to fight, you know, the other forces, but now, you know, my biggest force or now my biggest enemy is my own people. Because now you’ve got a bunch of folks [01:33:00] that are now they have the name of [Miguel Juan?] and [Rosario?] and they’re like the worst because what they did is they learned -they get elected, and then they go on and they learn to become politicians. And all they do is they only look out for their own selves or their own hidden agendas. And so the [dumb folks?], in a way, have kind of created an obstacle, even 59 �though they do talk about that they’re there for the people. They’re there for themselves, and they’re there for their bosses, you know, the political bosses. And so they take orders, marching orders, from the folks. And so, you know, unfortunately, you know, back in the days in this community, when we had politicians by the name of Pucinski, [Holowishka?], and I think I made this comment before, we had a community. All of a sudden, you know, we actually elect people by the name of Juan, Maria, and José, and our community is gone. You know, we’ve been displaced. Everything has been totally, been gentrified. You know, even today, [01:34:00] in the year 2012, the community I live right now, I’m probably the last of the Mohicans living on my block. This used to be all Puerto Rican in [Lincoln?] Park. And the same thing with Humboldt Park. That’s gone. You know, just about. Puerto Ricans have scattered all over the city and gone back to the suburbs. They’ve gone back to other neighborhoods. So the whole process of gentrification still goes on. I just don’t think that you have that kind of a movement that we had back in the days -- at least a movement that unifies everybody for the same cause. You’ve got folks out here that are running organizations, that are actually projecting and focusing on their own hidden agendas. You’ve got political figures out here who take orders from the Democratic organization who are sometimes probably our own worst enemies. And you’ve got folks that actually are cutting deals and doing things for themselves, and not, you know -- so the community has grown [01:35:00] really, really fast. But I don’t think that you have the same kind of issues back in the day. I’m still getting with issues. I mean, my latest issue has been this issue of 60 �given the fact that one out of every four Latino is someone of African descent, you know, my thing has always been -- and I’ve been fighting this for the last two decades -- is, you know, we always talk about, “Well, no, in my country there’s no discrimination. We all get along.” You know, it’s like -- but if you really look at it, you know, Black folks, Afro-Latinos, people of African descent that are Latinos had been ignored and had been treated like invisible people when we’ve been here all along from day one. We built this damn country. We built the infrastructure. And they got free labor not only here in this country but everywhere. In Mexico, everywhere. They brought all these Black folks to come in because of the fact that the Indians couldn’t cut it, so they had to bring in some labor to, you know, dig up not only [01:36:00] the sugar and the stuff. They were looking for that gold. So they actually brought in some heavy folks. So you know all this time they’ve been treating us as we don’t exist and that we haven’t contributed to anything. But we’ve done, and we made a lot of contributions, and so my biggest fight right now is in trying to get people to acknowledge those contributions and to begin to treat us with the respect that we deserve to be treated like, as Black people. And so, you know, one of the things that really bothers me is this whole image of what a Latino looks like. When you look at the media, and I get sick and tired of looking at the damn TV because every time you look at Spanish TV, even the American commercials, and they portray a Latino, we all look the same. We all look like you, Cha-Cha. We need, you know, real Black people. Like you look like a white boy. You look like a -- you look like a white boy. You know, all these, like, white-looking people. There’s no one ever 61 �that looks like me on TV unless you look at a reality show. Then you begin [01:37:00] to see. JJ: My mother told me I was going to be a lawyer. Okay. CF: Yeah, okay. Yeah. Well -- but that’s one of the biggest things right now. So that’s actually taken a lot -- gotten a lot of steam, and I go around and I talk to people, and I, you know, people, you know, all of a sudden, you know, you’ve got people talking about the relationship between African Americans and Latinos. Well hell, their relationship has always existed. Ain’t nothing new. You know, if you really, really, really -- you know, even the whole issue of Marcus Garvey and Arturo Alfonso Schomburg back in the mid -- the last century, you had all these relationships that existed between Latinos and African Americans, and so we just have to explore and look at our history, and basically that’s what we did. But I’m done, bro. JJ: I appreciate it. END OF VIDEO FILE 62 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ceae7017cfbea99f450ab72b953d1483.mp4 2ed86ff96f452dc475ba5cc13e822a39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carlos Flores vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Artes, Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Relaciones raciales Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Flores_Carlos Title A name given to the resource Carlos Flores video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Flores, Carlos Description An account of the resource Carlos Flores is a cultural activist who lived at La Salle and Superior in the La Clark barrio, growing up on Armitage Avenue. He takes pride in relating that his family was “the last of the Puerto Ricans to leave Lincoln Park” and recalls life in Lincoln Park which included his share of minor street battles as a teen member of the Continentals Social Club. Mr. Flores also fought for Puerto Ricans as a full fledged member of the Young Lords. Mr. Flores served on the Chicago Mayor’s Advisory Council on Latino Affairs, under Harold Washington. This council was first set up in 1983 by the Young Lords and four other Latino representative organizations city-wide soon after Harold Washington was elected the first African American mayor in Chicago history. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Race relations Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-29 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1abecdfb3c2ebd2b17bedf9029158412.pdf d76f00d0cb703ce18ba3ad0df2e62b90 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Diego A. Figueroa, Sr. Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/25/2012 Runtime: 01:26:18 Biography and Description Oral history of Diego A. Figueroa, Sr., interviewed by “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on August 25, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25ddd2072bd576c027caf6d69d62a45e.mp4 b64517e76ebf0967788e5e05932a418e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Diego Figuearoa, Sr. vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Diego Figuearoa, Sr., entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 8/25/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Figueroa_Sr_Diego Title A name given to the resource Diego Figuearoa, Sr. video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Figueroa, Sr, Diego Description An account of the resource Oral history of Diego Figuearoa, Sr., interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 8/25/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46fe1fe8e247e0e8cd1558b259bcf0dc.pdf ee530286b2b53c1653d0d76d76feec51 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Diego A. Figueroa, Jr. Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/25/2012 Runtime: 03:23:36 Biography and Description Oral history of Diego A. Figueroa, Jr., interviewed by “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on August 25, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, Diego. If you could give me your name, date of birth, and where you were born. DIEGO FIGUEROA JR.: My name is Diego Antonio Figuero, Jr. And my date of birth is April 12, 1955, and I was born in Ciales, Puerto Rico. JJ: Ciales, Puerto Rico. And where is Ciales in Puerto Rico? Is it -- DF Jr.: Ciales is right in the center of the island, right in the center. JJ: Right in the center? DF Jr.: Right south of Manatí. JJ: And is it a big town or -- DF Jr.: No, you can go through it in two minutes. It’s a really small town. So, you go through the town pretty quick. JJ: And what’s your mother and father’s name? DF Jr.: Name? JJ: Yeah. DF Jr.: My mom’s name is [Ramonita Villalobos?] and my father’s name is Diego Figueroa. [00:01:00] JJ: Okay. And they’re both from there, from Ciales? DF Jr.: They’re both from Ciales. My mom is from town, and my dad is from the country -- up in the country. JJ: Okay. What about brothers and sisters? DF Jr.: I’ve got two sisters. 1 �JJ: And what’s their names? DF Jr.: The second oldest -- I’m the oldest -- the second oldest is [Yvette Figueroa?] and my little sister [Alba Figueroa?] -- she’s not with us anymore. But she’s the youngest. JJ: Did you mention your brothers or no? DF Jr.: No brothers. JJ: No brothers, just two sisters. And what type of work did they do? DF Jr.: My sister Yvette -- right now she is like an -- she works in the operating room [00:02:00] -- not room -- outpatient surgery type secretary. JJ: Okay. So, she works for a doctor. DF Jr.: She works at the hospital, yeah. JJ: At the hospital? And your other sister? DF Jr.: My little sister -- before she died she -JJ: Oh, okay. I’m sorry. DF Jr.: She worked in the cashier office at the hospital. JJ: And what kind of work do you do? DF Jr.: I’m a security sergeant right now. JJ: And your father came from the country. DF Jr.: My father -- actually, my dad -JJ: What was his name again? DF Jr.: [Diego Figueroa Reyes?]. My dad -- at first, as a young 16 year old, he joined the national guards. He lied. He lied to get on there because he wanted to join. His mom signed the papers for him to join. [00:03:00] And that was when Cuba - 2 �- I mean, the communists wanted to take over Puerto Rico. So, my dad saw a lot of that in Puerto Rico when he joined. But after that, he went to Korea, and he was the youngest sergeant to be promoted because he lied about his age in the first place. They thought he was older. You know? He was a pretty young sergeant. And of course in Korea, he got his rank in the war. So, somebody would die, they’d promote my dad. Next guy would die, they’d promote my dad. So, he got promoted pretty quick. If you listen to his stories, a lot of his friends died in Korea, some in his arms. [00:04:00] He had a friend that died in his arms. So, he went through a lot in Korea. Of course, when he came back home, they gave him a hard time here -- in Kentucky where he was stationed at the base there because he didn’t really -- they wanted him to take tests to keep his rank. So, they would look for anything to demote him. Like my dad was beating on the base, they took a stripe away from him because he was Hispanic and they didn’t like that. They didn’t like that he was Hispanic and higher than them, in a sense. JJ: But he actually was part of a special group, right? DF Jr.: Yeah. He was. He was a special group of Puerto Ricans in Korea that were called the Borinqueneers. And [00:05:00] he could tell you some good stories of the Borinqueneers. They all had mustaches, for one. At one point he told me a story where the top captains or general -- he wanted all the Puerto Ricans, all the Borinqueneers to shave their mustaches. He said, “Man, we were all crying.” They were all crying because ever since they were little kids, ever since they were teenagers, they always had mustaches. They never shaved them. All of us, when we grew up, we grew up with a mustache. It was always -- we were 3 �like born with a mustache. You know? He was telling me, “As they cut mine -yeah, they made us shave our mustaches.” Actually, there was a group of them called -- I forget what the name of the group was. But it was a certain -- they knew their name of the group by the mustaches. I forget what it was called. He could tell you. JJ: What was the distinction? I mean, they were just -- DF Jr.: That was in Korea. Yeah. That was in Korea. They fought a lot of different battles, different hills that they attacked. JJ: And then, you went to the service too? DF Jr.: No, no. As a child, I grew up -- of course, my dad was in the military. But you grew up seeing all the army movies, playing with all the little soldiers and stuff. No, I was planning to join after high school, but I never joined. JJ: So, did you go to school at all in Puerto Rico? DF Jr.: No, no, I’ve always been -- I came here when I was three years old, 1958 I came here. JJ: And where was the first place that you lived? DF Jr.: We lived -- actually we lived on Racine and Newport, [00:07:00] up here, up north. And we lived with another family from Puerto Rico. So, we lived in the same apartment together, as far as my dad told me. I don’t remember that, but that’s what he told me. JJ: In ’58. I see. And so, what was the neighborhood like at that time when you were here? I mean, it was up here, up north. 4 �DF Jr.: I don’t remember. I don’t remember the -- I mean, I’ve driven by there because we lived up here north. But I don’t remember as a child what it was back then up here. JJ: When did you first begin to remember? DF Jr.: As a child? JJ: Recollections (inaudible). DF Jr.: Well, back when we moved to Armitage, when we moved to Kenmore Street, I was already eight. JJ: You remember Kenmore and Armitage? DF Jr.: I remembered it. JJ: And what do you remember there growing up? What school were you going to then? [00:08:00] DF Jr.: I was going to Mulligan Elementary School right there on Sheffield and Wisconsin. And I think it was in third grade. JJ: So, third grade. And what year was it then? DF Jr.: That’d be ’58. JJ: Was it ’58? DF Jr.: No, no, because, ’60 -JJ: Well, you were born in ’55, so it had to be like ’60 -- DF Jr.: Sixty-three. JJ: Sixty-three? DF Jr.: Yeah, ’63. JJ: Oh, you were -- ’63 -- okay, I was in eighth grade then. 5 �DF Jr.: Yeah. So, ’63, I was in second grade -- or third grade. JJ: And you were going to Mulligan. DF Jr.: Mulligan. JJ: So, by that time, there were more Puerto Ricans though on Kenmore, no? DF Jr.: It was a lot of Blacks, a lot of Blacks on Mulligan. JJ: The school was on Mulligan, yeah, you’re right. DF Jr.: It was still a little -- as a child, it was hard growing up going to school on Mulligan because there was a lot of Blacks there. JJ: So, there were problems with the Blacks and everything? DF Jr.: Oh, yeah, sure. Big problems. They were always [00:09:00] -- you know, we were the minority back then. Being a white, you could say -- even though we were Hispanic. And of course, as kids, we were confused because we were white and -- I mean, we were Hispanic, but yet, to some people, we were white. JJ: And now, ’63 -- because around that time -- but you were in only in third grade. DF Jr.: Yeah. Around that time was when Kennedy died. That was a big -- that was pretty rough back then. JJ: Did you have any problems from any of the other races? DF Jr.: Well, yeah, yeah, we had our problems with the white kids because we were Puerto Ricans. So, we had our challenges with both nationalities, the Blacks, the white kids, being in between, it was rough. JJ: Do you recall [00:10:00] any groups or anything at that time, the name of them? I know you were still young then. Or later on, do you recall any groups? 6 �DF Jr.: Oh, yeah, yeah. When we got to high school, of course, in the ’60s there was always the Black groups, the Assassins, the Blackstone Rangers, which of course -- the Black Assassins that went to [Waller?] that I remember. Of course, we had the Panthers that we heard about, as for Black gangs. But in high school -JJ: What about the Puerto Ricans? Did they have any groups? DF Jr.: Puerto Ricans -- I remember early in my childhood, we grew up with the Majestic Lords, of course. Of course, back then -- then we changed the names to Latin Kings. [00:11:00] And then, of course, there were other groups, the Young Lords, Kenmore Gents, the Harrison Gents, the Latin Saints were around back then. Of course, we had our ups and downs with the Kings. So, we had our problems with them too growing up. JJ: But you weren’t in any group though were you? DF Jr.: We were in the Majestic Lords. We were the Majestic Lords, and then, we were Latin Kings. JJ: Oh, you were Majestic Lords and Latin Kings? DF Jr.: Yeah, we were Majestic Lords. JJ: (inaudible) DF Jr.: We were at -- where were we at? On Dayton and Wisconsin? I think we were -remember when the boys -- they had a little boys club there. JJ: Oh, over by Willow and Vernon. (inaudible) DF Jr.: No, no, no. That was the Latin Saints. [00:12:00] Over this way towards Fremont and Wisconsin, there was a little boys club there. That’s where we used 7 �to hang out. It had a little pool table inside there and stuff. It was right on the corner. We used to have our meetings there. JJ: Right. I remember that. So, [Mango?] and [Yanna?] was working there or something like that? DF Jr.: I don’t remember. I was a little kid (inaudible). JJ: They were doing some -- reaching out to youth at that time. DF Jr.: They were. They were helping us. They would take us swimming. They would try to get us to get off the streets and stuff. JJ: Yeah. You want to stop for a second? DF Jr.: Yeah, let’s stop. (break in video) JJ: Whenever you’re ready. DF Jr.: The youth center -- I remember hanging out there as a kid. They used to take us swimming. It was [00:13:00] a time when they wanted to help us stay off the streets, sort of. It was really good. It kept us off the streets. JJ: You mentioned the Paragons and some of these other groups. DF Jr.: I remember the Paragons. I remember the Trojans back then. JJ: Because they were actually by Wisconsin and Halsted. So, they were right in that area where you’re talking about. DF Jr.: Well, as I got older, we moved to Armitage and Bissell. We went from Kenmore and Armitage to Sheffield and Armitage to Kenmore -- I mean, to Bissell and Armitage. Most of our lives we spent there. JJ: On Bissell and Armitage? 8 �DF Jr.: Right. JJ: So, right around what year? It doesn’t matter. So, basically around ’61, ’62? DF Jr.: Yeah, from that time until [00:14:00] ’70 -- you know, ’74, when I got married because we lived on top of Shinnicks on the top floor of Shinnicks. JJ: The drug store Shinnicks. DF Jr.: Yeah. We were on one corner. Then, we crossed the street to the other corner. And we lived on both tops, you know, the third floors. So, I didn’t leave out of there until I got married in ’75. JJ: Okay. So, were there other Puerto Ricans there? DF Jr.: Oh, yeah, yeah. There were a lot of Puerto Ricans there. Yeah, sure, all over the place. On Armitage, on Bissell. Of course, the [Medinas?], you know, were all over Bissell. They owned Bissell. The mayor of Bissell Street was Medinas. But [Lulu?] -- was it [Lulu Medina?]? Well, you know, the Medina from -- got married to Shinnicks. [00:15:00] One of the -- her dad was -- he owned all the property down Bissell Street. JJ: He owned all the property down there? DF Jr.: They called him mayor, the mayor. JJ: Mayor of Bissell between -- south of Armitage. DF Jr.: Yeah, south of Armitage to Wisconsin and up north of Wisconsin to -JJ: You mentioned downtown store and upstairs, the [Bolero?] Club? DF Jr.: We had the Bolero Club downstairs. JJ: Who was there that (inaudible)? 9 �DF Jr.: Well, when that was there, the Trojans were there in that corner, some of the older Trojans, a lot of drug traffic in that corner. We used to see a lot of the guys in the back doing drugs, shooting up. So, it was a -JJ: What year was this? DF Jr.: It had to be in the late ’60s, ’68, ’69. JJ: That’s when the drugs [00:16:00] started coming. Right after -- ’70s. It was in the late ’60s, ’70s. That’s when the drugs came. DF Jr.: That was a tough time there on that corner. JJ: So, you came when that happened. DF Jr.: We were living upstairs already. Right. We were living upstairs. JJ: Oh, yeah, because it’s right on Bissell. And then, under the tracks is where they were getting drugs. DF Jr.: Exactly, right. Because that whole are changed. JJ: So, they started at [Halsted and Lincoln?] and Armitage. So, by the time they were under the tracks, they were almost in Abe Lincoln Park and they were already misplacing people in that park. DF Jr.: Right, right. And then, we had the hippies -- of course, that part of area, you know, or -- I used to walk down Armitage, and I would feel sorry for them sometimes because they would never make it past [00:17:00] down Armitage. It was a rough time for them. JJ: So, you just thought of them as losers. DF Jr.: They didn’t belong there. They sort of didn’t belong. They were always trying to walk down. But they just didn’t belong. 10 �JJ: You’re talking about the Puerto Ricans now? DF Jr.: No, the hippies. I’m talking about the hippies as they walked down Armitage. It was all Puerto Ricans then. JJ: Oh, okay. So, you saw them as they were moving in. DF Jr.: Right. Moving in, walking through. It wasn’t a good time for a white kid to walk down Armitage at that time, late ’60s, early ’70s. It was a big thing. JJ: So, it wasn’t a good time for white kids to walk down? Why is that? DF Jr.: Well, because we had our fights with them. We were fighting them. The kids down by Armitage and Mohawk -- you know, we had the Mohawk group, the Corporation they called them, the Corps. back then. Remember [00:18:00] the Corps that was part of the gas station over on Armitage and Mohawk. And they were a lot of them -- a lot of those white kids. JJ: Oh, that gas station that -- by Mohawk? DF Jr.: It was Mohawk, Sedgwick maybe. JJ: Was it Sedgwick? DF Jr.: And there was a big empty lot right in front of the gas station. They used to all hang out there, a lot of them. And they used to come down Armitage in their cars. They all had cars, nice cars. Six or seven of them would jump on, and we’d run it. But it was a rough time back then. JJ: And you’re going to school now. Went to Mulligan you said? DF Jr.: Went to Mulligan. From Mulligan -- that was up to the fifth grade. Then, we went to Arnold Upper Grade Center. JJ: How was Arnold? (inaudible) having problems with the (inaudible). 11 �DF Jr.: Arnold was less [00:19:00] that. So, it was more mixture of people. It was a point where things started to change and more the Hispanics started to run things. And to me, we started to run things a little smooth, being Hispanic. JJ: So, Armitage became like a center of Hispanics for a while. DF Jr.: Yeah, for me it did. JJ: While you were there. Because the ’60s -- so, you were there during that period when -- well, that was -- so, you were in Armitage was Puerto Rican. DF Jr.: It was all Puerto Rican. JJ: All Puerto Rican from [West Street?] to [West Street?]. DF Jr.: Oh, man. I would say from Racine down east all the way at least until Burling, maybe Orchard going east [00:20:00] down to Wisconsin, Willow maybe, north to Dickens, Webster. JJ: That area was all Puerto Rican? Well, not all, but a majority. DF Jr.: A lot of Puerto Ricans knew each other. JJ: And did people know each other? What type of community was it? DF Jr.: Yeah, everybody knew each other. Everybody protected their corners or their neighborhoods. It was a thing about protection, like we protected each other, protected the neighborhood, protected the older people. JJ: So, you protected the older people. So, the youth were protecting the older people? DF Jr.: Right, sure. JJ: So, it wasn’t a drug enterprise like the gangs of today. 12 �DF Jr.: No, it never was. It never was. It never started like that. [00:21:00] It was always a group of guys that would protect the neighborhood that they lived in. JJ: Why would they need protection? DF Jr.: Well, from other racial groups, I would think. JJ: So, it was like a segregated area where different races lived on different blocks. DF Jr.: Sure, sure. Well, you had your white kids on Kenmore and Dickens. You know, it was a great white group of kids there. And of course you had the white kids over by Armitage and Mohawk that we had to deal with. JJ: And so, on Kenmore, you said there was white kids? DF Jr.: There were kids there, white kids, yeah. JJ: And did they give -- you know, I know the Blacks there were a problem. But did the white kids -- was there a problem with having -- in terms of physical? DF Jr.: Oh, yeah, yeah. We had big fights with them. [00:22:00] JJ: When you say big fights, what does that mean? DF Jr.: We had a big fight with them one time where there was a big shoot out there on Kenmore and Dickens. So, it was pretty -- somebody got hurt coming out of neighborhood there. JJ: So, it was Puerto Rican against the white groups? DF Jr.: Right. JJ: And that happened a lot or no? DF Jr.: It happened -JJ: Or just in the beginning, in the beginning or -- 13 �DF Jr.: Well, we had our problems with both. We had our problems with the white kids, and the Blacks, of course -- but the Blacks -- no matter how many of them were, they sort of respected us even though there was few of us [00:23:00] because they knew that we weren’t going to stand down to them. But we had our problems with them in school because we -- you know, when we were going to Waller, it was probably 92 percent Black at the time when I was there even through 1973 when I graduated. It was all Black. So, there was only maybe five percent Hispanic. JJ: You mentioned before that there was a lot of Hispanic because now they were bussing or something from community (inaudible) and that’s where (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: Right, sure. There was kids coming from everywhere. JJ: And a lot of Latinos dropping out. DF Jr.: Right, right. We didn’t have too many Latinos in that school. And then, the white kids -- they were two percent white kids. JJ: So, they had more (inaudible). DF Jr.: Exactly. JJ: In the early ’50s. DF Jr.: Right. Sure, sure. JJ: Because you’re coming in the ’60s. But ’62, ’63, there was -- Armitage, especially your area, was Puerto Rican from what you’re describing. DF Jr.: Yeah. It was all Hispanic there in the late ’60s and early ’70s with all the big bands, the salsa bands would come around, Willie Colon, The Fania All-Stars, 14 �Celia Cruz. It was all about Willie Colon. We all wanted to look like Willie Colon, the sideburns, the hair. It was that kind of style. JJ: And [Malo?]. DF Jr.: And Malo, yeah. It was that kind of a time. JJ: So, people were dressing like Willie Colon. DF Jr.: Yeah, big time Fania, everybody. JJ: With the coats and -- DF Jr.: Yeah, we went to a lot of the [Huracan?] dances, international ballroom, Northwest Hall, [Bank?] Hall, everywhere where the bands would play. JJ: Viking Hall. [00:25:00] DF Jr.: Viking Hall. JJ: So, it was a hall era. People were dancing all the time. DF Jr.: All the time. Every weekend there was a dance. Ray Barretto would come. JJ: So, they were (inaudible) and now they’re coming to Chicago (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: The top of salsa was back then. JJ: This was the ’70s. That’s when the (inaudible). DF Jr.: Yeah, exactly. Early ’70s. JJ: What about local bands? Were there any local bands? DF Jr.: Yeah. Local bands -- my wife’s brother was the leader of La Union, the Union. And that was [La Justicia?] back then. They always competed with each other, La Justicia, La Union. Actually, they came out with their own 45s. They [00:26:00] came out with their own records. 15 �JJ: The Solucion was another one. DF Jr.: La Solucion, La Justicia. JJ: So, this was when (inaudible) was. DF Jr.: Yeah, [Mr. Caribe?] was in charge of those groups. So, they were like the intro to a lot of the big bands. Like Ray Barretto would come. La Union would come in and play a few songs, and then Ray Buretta would come out or Fania would come out or Celia Cruz would come out. So, they were like the introduction type bands. JJ: So -- but they were also English speaking bands. Did you know any of those? Puerto Ricans but English speaking? DF Jr.: The only English -- I remember the only group -- I remember we threw a couple dances at St. Teresa Hall. [00:27:00] And we hired a group called the Hypnotics. I don’t know if you remember them. It was a group that we hired to play at our dance. JJ: What kind of music did they play? DF Jr.: It was all soul music. And we were into soul a lot until salsa came out. We were into soul. But the Hypnotics -- I’ll never forget that group because I hired them. I hired them twice to play. JJ: What were you hiring them for? What group were you representing? DF Jr.: Well, we had a -JJ: Were you part of St. Teresa’s (inaudible)? DF Jr.: No, we had a couple little social dances at St. Teresa’s. JJ: Who’s “we”? I’m trying to find out what group, what organization. 16 �DF Jr.: Well, we were part of the Latin Kings back then. JJ: Okay. The Latin Kings? DF Jr.: The younger kings because there were older guys, but we were the younger group. [00:28:00] JJ: Okay. So, you were the newer Latin Kings. So, you were throwing dances at St. Teresa’s. DF Jr.: We used to throw dances at St. Teresa’s. And then, of course, we had problems with the older kings, because they wanted to get in for free -- everybody wanted to get in for free. We used to say, “We can’t get in for free. You guys gotta pay.” So, we, as a younger group -- we had to pay to get in. So, we had our little problems with them. That’s when we had the -- that’s when our problems started with the older kings. JJ: But now, when you’re -- there was a hall there that used to have a lot of rooms. Did the hall get filled up? DF Jr.: Yeah. We had -- well, we used to go all over throwing flyers. We had people from all over the city to come. Our hall was packed. That little hall was packed. [00:29:00] JJ: And what about the women at that time? Who were (inaudible)? DF Jr.: There was all kind of women. Just -- it wasn’t -- we just had girls come from all over. JJ: So, you put flyers out? 17 �DF Jr.: Yeah, we used to throw flyers. We used to go to the south side, north side, west side. We used to throw up flyers for the dance. And we used to come -- you know, people used to come from all over the place. JJ: Now, before they (inaudible) that was at St. Teresa’s. Did you know them at all? DF Jr.: No, that must have been later. I don’t remember the -JJ: What about (inaudible)? But they’re still there. They’re actually still there, a small group of them. But these were the adults. So, they [00:30:00] threw dances there. In fact, they had mass there in Spanish. Were you Catholic? DF Jr.: Yeah, we used to go to St. Teresa’s. JJ: You used to go to St. Teresa’s? Now, did you ever attend St. Teresa’s? DF Jr.: Only to make my communion, confirmation. You know, we went to classes there for that. JJ: So, there were classes? DF Jr.: Yeah. Sundays or Saturdays we used to go to classes for communion, confirmation classes, you know. JJ: So, were Puerto Ricans running these classes? DF Jr.: No, I don’t think they were -- I think they were part of the school, part of the nuns and stuff that ran the program. I remember [Father Hoffman?] or something like that. JJ: Now, you went to Waller High School. You said you graduated from there? [00:31:00] DF Jr.: Went from Waller from ’69 to ’73. And I graduated from Waller. JJ: And you said it was mostly Black at that time? 18 �DF Jr.: Mostly Black. It was about 92 percent Black even then. JJ: When I went there -- I mean, I went there for only a couple months but it was a good 50, 60 percent Hispanic, maybe not that long. DF Jr.: Hispanic? JJ: Hispanic. DF Jr.: Wow. No, it wasn’t that much, not when -JJ: And the rest of them were mainly white at that time. DF Jr.: Wow. JJ: But then, I remember also when they started bussing (inaudible) and then the whites were (inaudible) communities. DF Jr.: Well, in ’68 when the riots came, [00:32:00] I was at Arnold’s school and I was in sixth grade when a brick came through our window when the riots started. JJ: They were rioting. They were rioting at that time. That’s right. You were (inaudible). DF Jr.: Yeah, that was ’67. JJ: Because they were looking for anybody that was white at that time. DF Jr.: Exactly. JJ: And I got lucky because they knew I was with some other Puerto Ricans. Otherwise, I would -- because I’m light skinned. But they ran right up to where we were (inaudible). DF Jr.: Right. They ran all down Armitage, down Halsted. JJ: They were looking for the whites. 19 �DF Jr.: Right, right. That’s when the mayor -- I remember the newspaper then. Kill to shoot. It was shoot to kill. Whatever that big comment was that he made. But I’ll never forget that. Actually, my parents had to pick me up from school because they wouldn’t let us out of school until our parents picked us up that day. JJ: Right. And (inaudible). Yeah. [00:33:00] DF Jr.: So, I was in sixth grade. I was in [Mr. Meyer’s?] class. Actually, I was standing next to the window when that brick went through the window. So, we all ran towards the door. I remember that day. I think that was the day that Martin Luther King was killed. Wasn’t it in that time, I think, ’68 or so? The riots happened. JJ: Right during that time there was a few riots. It wasn’t just one. They had a few. They would just chase people right after school. So now, you said (inaudible). [00:34:00] Did you go into the Bolero yourself? DF Jr.: No, I remember as a kid -- you know, the police used to harass us a lot. JJ: Did you guys hang around (inaudible)? DF Jr.: The older guys hung out on Dayton and Armitage, right on the church there. JJ: And you hung out there too? DF Jr.: Right. JJ: So, right by the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: Actually, we were there one night. I remember we were hanging out. There was -- must have been about 30 or 40 of us. And somebody -- either a car went by or -- man, we all hit the floor. (laughs) Backfiring of a car or something. I remember 20 �all of us hit the floor that day. It was pretty funny. It was funny, but it wasn’t funny. Somebody would have been hurt. JJ: Do you remember some of the (inaudible). DF Jr.: Names -- [00:35:00] JJ: First names. DF Jr.: I don’t remember really names. You know, some of the older guys, [Hanky?], Gaylord, I remember [Gaylord Bapo?], [Richie?], [Pedro Rosa?]. I don’t know if I should have said that. Pedro. JJ: That’s alright. It has nothing to do with their -- I just want to include them in that. DF Jr.: Mailman, a guy named Mailman. I forget his real -- you remember sort of nicknames. Sometimes I don’t remember the real names. JJ: And what did you guys -- did you guys just hang around there all night? I mean, what was the whole thing about hanging out? What was good about it when you were young? [00:36:00] DF Jr.: Really, there was nothing to do, and it was just a place to hang out. You’re sort of pretty close. It was a closeness between the guys that we just hung out with. Didn’t do much. Just hanged out and talked. There was really not much to do. JJ: Is there anything (inaudible) a gang or something, a rough gang or something? And I know that the people (inaudible). I mean, they’re not timid. It wasn’t the Boy Scouts. But were they actually looking for trouble all the time? DF Jr.: Never. I don’t remember the guys ever looking for trouble. It wasn’t that type of a group. Actually, the trouble always came to us for some reason. But [00:37:00] it was more protecting the neighborhood, protecting the old people. It was never 21 �about us going somewhere looking for trouble. I mean, maybe later on things changed as time changed and the year. But it wasn’t like that back then. JJ: Now, when you were (inaudible) church? DF Jr.: Yes, I was (inaudible) church. Yes. I was there when the Young Lords built the park. I remember the park they built over there on Halsted and Armitage. JJ: What was that like? What do you remember of that? DF Jr.: Well, you know, as the years went by we had our dances. [00:38:00] Things started to change between some of the guys. Because we were the younger group. There were older guys than us. So, it came to a point where -JJ: They were the young guys, [Hank?] and them. But you were younger than Hank and them? DF Jr.: Yeah, I was younger than Hank and them. They were a lot older than us. But it came to a point where we -- I and -- we just started to leave them. There was a group of us that left them, and we made our own group. And it kept -JJ: Your own group of kings? DF Jr.: No, we changed our name. Continentals. I don’t know if you remember the Continentals. So, we took that name from the older Continentals because there was an older group of Continentals back in the -- probably middle ’60s or something. The [Lebergons?] were around. So, we took their colors. [00:39:00] Of course, the Young Lords were purple and black, and then, the Continentals were black and purple, same colors except opposite. So, of course, when we took those colors, older guys didn’t like it because they didn’t like those colors. They never liked those Gent colors. You know, the Harrison Gents used to wear 22 �those colors. So, we started fighting our own friends, our own brothers. The minute we got our sweaters, we got into it. JJ: That’s pretty interesting because you always had those colors (inaudible) and we kept purple later. So, you guys took those colors too. I mean, Harrison Gents had those colors. I mean, we weren’t connected to them. DF Jr.: Exactly, exactly. JJ: But you were there and you took their colors. [00:40:00] DF Jr.: We took those colors except that ours was all purple with the black (inaudible) Young Lords and the Gents had the black and purple. But we had our problems back then. JJ: But (inaudible). DF Jr.: Right, right. Exactly. Right. JJ: So, was there a reason that you took those colors? DF Jr.: I just loved those colors. Maybe it was because of the Young Lords because we used to wear the Young Lords pants. We used to -- everybody had their pants. We all wore their pants. JJ: Everybody wore the pants? DF Jr.: Yeah, yeah, sure, we all had the Young Lords pants on. And I think the Young Lords back then gave -- it was like a type of respect, a boost that they used to give us [00:41:00] because of the things that they did that we weren’t part of that group sort of, you know, politically wise. But we respected that part because without that push, we wouldn’t be what we were at today. JJ: As a community you mean? 23 �DF Jr.: As a group, as a Hispanic group, as a community. I think the Young Lords did a lot for us back then, even though we -- I remember one of the guys always getting arrested. I forget his name. But he used to come by the school giving out flyers. The police would always arrest him. That was a time when the police just arrest all of us. My dad would send me to the store to go get cigarettes. I couldn’t go to the corner store without getting thrown up against a car or thrown up against a [00:42:00] wall to get searched. My mom would send me to get some milk. I’d be -- it’d take a while because the police would have me up against a car. Like I said, our corner was a hot corner. Armitage and Bissell was hot. Maybe the cops were thinking that maybe we were into the same thing that the people were there dealing stuff because we lived upstairs. But we weren’t. It just happened that we lived in that building. Nobody else did -- I mean, none of the people that used to do drugs lived in that building. It was just that we were in that corner. It was a hot corner. JJ: And then, you got pretty organized as you got -- you (inaudible). DF Jr.: As a younger group, we were pretty organized. That’s what the older guys didn’t like about us. We were organized. We had money. And we had all the weapons too. We had the weapons. When it came to trouble, who did they come to? They came to us, the younger guys, because we had all the weapons. [00:43:00] But they didn’t like it when we left the part of their group. JJ: So now, you’re graduating from Waller. You went to Waller. Anything from Waller that stands out in your mind? 24 �DF Jr.: We had our problems at school, like I said. But I graduated from Waller, and then, I went to Truman College downtown. Actually, I was going to join the army. I wanted to join the army back when I finished high school. That was my thing was to join the army. But I didn’t. I mean, that was of course turned -- the Vietnam War had just ended, 1973 the war had just ended. And I remember some of the guys going to Vietnam, getting drafted, you know, dropping out of school, [00:44:00] getting drafted, coming back. They’d be even worse. They went in there bad, that came back out worse with the drugs and stuff because they -- Vietnam was rough for some of the guys. I went to Truman College. I had trouble in high school. I didn’t do too good in high school. Never liked school that much. How did I make it through school? I don’t know. But went to Truman. JJ: Did you graduate? DF Jr.: I graduated by luck. I don’t know how I graduated. JJ: And you (inaudible)? DF Jr.: Not really. It was rough. High school was rough for all of us. I didn’t have to really do too much [00:45:00] to pass. The teachers were nice. I was nice to the teachers. I did what they told me to do. If I said, “I’m not going to be here. Tomorrow we’re going to the lake. We’re going to” -- it was no big thing for the teachers if I didn’t show up to school. We passed. They just passed you. Teachers didn’t really care. There were some good teachers, like [Mr. Metropolis?] who was a very good teacher. He was an algebra teacher. He had this little bottle on the side. He had a little bottle on the table that he used to drink. (laughs) I don’t know if you remember. Metropolis had a beard. But he 25 �was a good algebra teacher, a very good algebra teacher. But every once in a while, you could see him going to that desk and he’d take a little shot. [00:46:00] But he was a good teacher. I’ll never forget him. He was a good math teacher. JJ: And that was actually a plus. Like this guy’s one of us or something. He takes a shot. DF Jr.: He used to take a shot right in class right in front of us. I remember. We used to see him. JJ: I mean, could you relate to him pretty well? DF Jr.: Yeah. Well, he was a good teacher. JJ: What does that mean, he was a good teacher? DF Jr.: I mean, that was a prealgebra. So, that was a prealgebra class, I remember. After we finishing this class, we took the next algebra class with [Ms. Wilkins?]. Ms. Wilkins was the next teacher in algebra. And she was a very good teacher. Actually, she still writes to me on -- not Facebook -- but on that other one with the schools where everybody’s in the school thing. I don’t -- Ms. Wilkins -JJ: There’s something in the school? DF Jr.: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Like Waller Facebook thing? [00:47:00] DF Jr.: Yeah. JJ: I saw something -- DF Jr.: Classmates, that thing called Classmates. Ms. Wilkins is in there. She said something to me. But she was my algebra teacher. I had [Mr. Carr?] and [Ms. India?] was in charge of the work program because I was in the work program. 26 �JJ: How did that go? DF Jr.: The last two years of high school, I would get out of school at eleven, and then I would go to work. The morning classes were all classes and then, I would go to my job, wherever it was. JJ: And it was -- DF Jr.: It was set up through the school. So, where other kids were studying more into their classes, I was working. JJ: And what kind of work were you doing then? [00:48:00] DF Jr.: I was working at a drug store on Clark and Dickens. It was called Youngs Pharmacy. So, I was worked there for maybe two or three years. JJ: Just at the counter or -- DF Jr.: Stock. I used to fill out the stock. And the pharmacist was a really, really nice guy. Actually, he wanted me to be a pharmacist. He was always pushing me to go to school and to be a pharmacist. But that wasn’t for me. Actually, I still see him. JJ: So, you went from there -- you went to Truman College. DF Jr.: Truman College. Then I got married. JJ: What happened? How was Truman College? What were you studying there? What was your major? DF Jr.: My major there was in [00:49:00] business administration. I wanted to go into business. Didn’t like the -- I didn’t like the math. I mean, I didn’t get into the business part of. So, I sort of -- I started it, didn’t like it. It was rough. JJ: Originally, what were your plans? To set up a business? 27 �DF Jr.: No, originally, I wanted to work at a bank. I wanted to work at a bank. I took those classes like business administration. And my uncle was president of a bank. JJ: Oh, he was president of a bank? So, you figured -- DF Jr.: My mom’s brother was president of a bank. JJ: Your mom? DF Jr.: So, I was looking into -JJ: Your mom was president of the bank? DF Jr.: No, her brother. Her brother. So, I was looking into something like that to get into. But it wasn’t for me. [00:50:00] And of course, in ’75, I got married. JJ: What’s your wife’s name? DF Jr.: [Mirta Velez?]. JJ: Is she from the neighborhood? DF Jr.: No, she’s from Lake View. And she’s [Leo’s?] sister. Leo was the leader of La Union back then, the band La Union. So, got married and 10 years later, I got laid off from my job. I was working at Children’s Memorial. JJ: Did you have children then? DF Jr.: I had one little -- my oldest. Yeah, I had one. JJ: What’s her name? DF Jr.: [Alicia?]. Yeah, she was a child when I got laid off, 1980, Reaganomics. I’ll never forget Reaganomics. but we lost our jobs at the hospital. I was working security at Children’s Memorial [00:51:00] for three years, and then, I got laid off. And that’s when I went back to school. Went to Truman College, and that’s 28 �where I picked up my associate’s degree in law enforcement. I graduated there with honors and I minored in psych sort of. I took five classes in psych. JJ: Why did you get into law enforcement and corrections? Did you study corrections or no? You were studying business administration. DF Jr.: At first, I was studying business. The reason I got into law enforcement was I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to be a policeman actually. So, I wanted to sort of make a difference. I knew there were kids out there that needed someone to go to type of thing. JJ: And you understood the streets pretty well. [00:52:00] DF Jr.: Yeah. So, I knew that there were kids that needed help to get them off the gangs and stuff like that. So, that was my goal. But I never -- being -- I took the police test two or three times. It was really rough, especially the oral exams of the police department, being Hispanic and stuff. It’s sort of tough. JJ: Why was it tough? You went to college. You completed high school. Because I thought before if you had a high school diploma, it was easy to get in. DF Jr.: Even with a college degree, it was still hard to get in, especially when you don’t know the little tricks that they look for when they’re giving you the exam, the little questions they ask you and what they expect from you [00:53:00] in the oral exam. They put you in these little groups, and they want you to solve a problem. And sometimes -- one group -- I remember one time they put us in this group. One of the guys was sort of drunk. He was drunk, and he couldn’t stop talking. And he was probably the one guy that passed the exam because if you don’t talk in this group setting, you’re not going to pass. So, this guy that was sort of 29 �drunk, he probably was the only one that passed. He’s probably still a policeman now. (laughs) JJ: So, why were you so shy that you didn’t want to talk? DF Jr.: Well, he didn’t let nobody talk. I mean -JJ: Oh, this guy wouldn’t? DF Jr.: That part of the exam, he did not let nobody talk. But when I took it again, I already knew it was coming. So, the minute that part came, I told everybody in that class, [00:54:00] “This is what we’ve got to do. You pass it to this guy. You ask this guy this question. We all get a little a chance to talk in this class because that’s what they’re looking for.” How do we communicate? How are we going to solve this problem? And that’s what we did. So, eventually I passed. The next thing was the psychological test. So, you go see a shrink downtown. Well, another thing that I learned -- when you tell them the truth, it’s not good. So, when you tell -- one thing I learned about that is even though you’re telling the truth -- like for instance, I told him the truth about school, how we used to come to school and we used to bring our guns to school for protection, how we used to -JJ: So, you told him? DF Jr.: Yeah. We used to smoke going to school. [00:55:00] And of course, the psychiatrist goes, “Oh, yeah.” JJ: You told him you used to smoke cigarettes or the other kind? DF Jr.: The other kind. And then, the doctor would say, “I understand.” He would sort of agree with me. But then, at the end, he failed me. He failed my by telling the 30 �truth. So, that’s one thing that I always tell people. “When you see the shrink, don’t say nothing they don’t know. If they don’t know about it, don’t say it. Don’t tell them.” I remember telling all my friends that, “When you get to this section, don’t tell them nothing they don’t know. If you’ve never been arrested or if they don’t know nothing, don’t tell them about it.” It cost me telling them the truth. JJ: So, I’m not going to ask in this interview if you were arrested. DF Jr.: No, I’ve never been arrested. JJ: Okay, good. [00:56:00] So, you’d taken this test (inaudible) and you’re qualified for it but you didn’t make it. How did you feel? DF Jr.: I’m too old now. I mean, you get to a point where you’re too old. Once you pass 30, in your 30s you can’t take the test anymore. JJ: Well, I mean, at that time, how did you feel? DF Jr.: I felt pretty bad. I mean, even the director of security at the hospital felt bad that I didn’t pass the test because he knew that I was a nice -JJ: Because you already had a track record there. DF Jr.: Right and I got my degree and everything. So, I had more than some people did. Like you said, all you needed was a high school diploma. JJ: Right. And you had a degree. DF Jr.: I got my associate’s degree, yeah. [00:57:00] I always wanted to finish school. I mean, it wasn’t too far backwards where I was trying to get my bachelor’s in criminal justice. I got into a problem at work. I was in a program, special -- an advanced program. And since I had to get on the Internet a lot at work for my studies and stuff, I got into trouble, and they put me on corrective action. So, I 31 �had to drop out of school. So, I never got my bachelor’s because it was too expensive. The company was paying me to go to school. But I think I have maybe a year -- I would have like maybe a year left to finish. [00:58:00] JJ: So, you were working at the Children’s Memorial? DF Jr.: No, I’m at [S&C Electric?]. I’ve been there for 20 years. After Children’s, I got a job at S&C Electric in security. And now, I’m there. I’m a sergeant there, and I’ve been there 20 years. JJ: Is that a big company? Is there a lot of security there? DF Jr.: Yeah. We have like 50 something acres. We have maybe 12 buildings. We have a company here in Chicago, a company in Canada. JJ: So, you supervise how many? DF Jr.: I only supervise my shift, which is four guys. But I was in the police reserves. I was in the Illinois police reserves for a while which I ended with lieutenant. I was a lieutenant there. And I was more of an administration person. I was in charge of the website. I created the website for them. [00:59:00] I created these folders for all the sergeants and lieutenants and stuff like that. JJ: How do you get into the police reserves? Is that like recruitment of the national guard or something like that? You said you didn’t make the police reserves, but you were in the police reserves. DF Jr.: Yeah. There’s a group called the -- (crashing sound). JJ: What did I break? I broke something. DF Jr.: The police reserve is a group. We go -- you get into this group. You go into the training. There’s all kind of training, a couple hundred hours of training that you 32 �do on your own. You don’t get paid. [01:00:00] You pay for everything. It’s all volunteer. And your uniforms -- you’ve got to pay. JJ: This is a volunteer position. DF Jr.: Volunteer group. And we used to -- after September 11th, who were they looking for? Police reserves. All these little towns, these little suburbs and stuff that needed help because they didn’t have enough policemen, they would hire us. So, we would help them out. We were at Orlin Park at a mosque, protecting this mosque. Here we’re protecting the people that -JJ: You feel that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: Exactly. So, here we’re protecting -- of course, there’s people protesting in front of this mosque. And here we’re protecting them because that’s our job to protect them. So, we’re getting it from both sides, from our own [01:01:00] people and from them because they didn’t want us there. They people from the mosque didn’t want us there. JJ: They wanted you? DF Jr.: No, they didn’t want us there. JJ: But you were protecting them. DF Jr.: We were there and the FBI was there too because they were there too. But just a little scenario there from September 11th, something that I’ll never forget is how we had to deal with our people in this country and then protecting those people who didn’t want us there and here we were risking our lives for them. It was sort of -JJ: So, how did you feel? You were risking your life. 33 �DF Jr.: Well, it felt sort of -- it felt pretty shitty in a sense. But we were there. It was our job. JJ: Were you going to protect them? DF Jr.: Oh, yeah. It was our job to protect them. Yeah. But like I said, the FBI was there. [01:02:00] JJ: You said you had gone to the (inaudible). DF Jr.: The city would hire us as policemen. We had a letter from the mayor saying within these hours or this time period we’re policemen in their town. JJ: So, you actually (inaudible). DF Jr.: We got a letter from them. We had a uniform, weapons, and everything, just like the police there. And they still do that today. They’re still doing it today. We have a chief just like -- we have a deputy chief just like a police department. And we worked all these different parks, Old Park, Orlin Park, Oak Lawn, Shiler Park, River Grove. We worked all these little towns. Any time they had a big carnival where they needed help, where they didn’t have enough policemen to handle crowd control, they would hire us. Now, we didn’t get paid by the hour. We got a flat fee. [01:03:00] They paid the police who had served so much money, and then, we would get a flat fee like 45 bucks for the whole night or something. It was all like -- I forget the word they use -- not commission but -JJ: Some (inaudible). DF Jr.: Yeah. But it was always fun. We never -JJ: The whole thing (inaudible) law enforcement (inaudible). DF Jr.: Just -- well, my dad was always in security. 34 �JJ: It wasn’t the money alone. DF Jr.: No, no, no. It was never money. But I guess -- you know, my dad was in security. I remember as a kid when he talked about the military police. And then, he was in the Cook County Sheriff’s Department. Then he was sergeant at [01:04:00] the Masonic Hospital. He was security there, sergeant. So, I grew up in that kind of -JJ: In that kind of environment? DF Jr.: Yeah. So, it sort of like -JJ: It was natural. DF Jr.: Yeah. And then, like I said, I always wanted to -- I never liked the way the police used to treat us when we were growing up as kids. I always wanted to get into -and I used to see the shows, the -- Baretta. Baretta was a cool dude, cool Jack. And Baretta was always helping people out. He was a cool cop that could deal with people. He knew the streets and he was -- that’s the kind of cop I wanted to be, sort of like Baretta. JJ: My time was (inaudible). (laughs) DF Jr.: Right, right. JJ: So, [01:05:00] you moved out of Lincoln Park at what age? DF Jr.: I moved out in ’75. JJ: Were you moving out of your family’s house? DF Jr.: Yeah, we moved out of the family, and that’s when I got married. And I moved up north to -- our first apartment was up by the Truman College around Montrose and Dover or something. So, we were up there towards the Lake View area. 35 �JJ: So, what year was that when you moved? DF Jr.: That was ’75. JJ: Because ’75 we had that (inaudible) campaign. Were you aware of that? Were you thinking about that at all (inaudible)? DF Jr.: No, I don’t remember that. I moved out in ’75, and I didn’t really come back to the neighborhood much after that. [01:06:00] JJ: So, you must have been -- the (inaudible) was February. So, it had to be after February. DF Jr.: I moved out in April. JJ: Oh, ok. DF Jr.: Of ’75. JJ: So, it was after the campaign. DF Jr.: I moved out in April of ’75. I think it had to be --- no, it had to be -- maybe February of ’75. JJ: So, right after (inaudible). What -- well, you already mentioned -- you didn’t see any programs at the church or anything like that? DF Jr.: No, they -- I remember going to the church for meetings. The guys used to have their meeting there for a while. JJ: What did you think of the whole thing, the (inaudible)? Did you understand it or no? DF Jr.: I remember the guys were always getting in trouble. [01:07:00] The cops were always harassing the Young Lords because of their protesting. I remember one time the guys -- I never went because I wasn’t allowed to go out late or whatever. 36 �But I remember one time when the Young Lords went up to [Edison?] and Halsted. You guys were protesting in front of the police station up there. JJ: Actually, that was when I turned myself in. (laughs) I was under (inaudible) and I had (inaudible). So, it was (inaudible) I came out. I went in to organize again in the community (inaudible) do my time, parole. So, when I turned myself in, that was (inaudible). [01:08:00] Do you remember that? DF Jr.: I remember them going up there. I remember people talking about it. They were going to do that. But they were going up there to protest at the police station. I don’t know if I heard it at school. I don’t remember what year it was. JJ: It was like ’72. DF Jr.: Okay, so I was a junior at school. So, we -- I think in ’72, we -- I remember walking out of school. We had a big protest and the whole school walked out. We went to [Clemente?]. I don’t remember what the protest was about. But we all protested. I don’t know what it was. But it was a big thing down on Division Street. We walked down Division towards Clemente. But I don’t remember what the protest was about. JJ: But you were there supporting the protest then? DF Jr.: Yeah, we always supported the protest even though sometimes we didn’t know what it was about. JJ: So, why would you have [01:09:00] supported it? DF Jr.: Just being Hispanic. Because we might not have been fighting for the cause. But we supported the cause, whatever the cause was. If the Young Lords were doing a certain -- we still supported them even though we might not have known 37 �why. Because sometimes we didn’t really know, being younger or -- if somebody said, “We’re going to cut school for this protest,” we all did it. JJ: And the people from (inaudible). DF Jr.: Right, right. Sure, exactly. And then, we were part of the programs, the clubs in school, like ASPIRA. We were part of ASPIRA Club or the Spanish Club. We had little groups in school. JJ: So, you were part of ASPIRA? DF Jr.: ASPIRA. JJ: The Hispanic Club? [01:10:00] Was that connected to ASPIRA? What did that mean being part of ASPIRA? DF Jr.: Every school had an ASPIRA Club. Like I said, I remember the time they said we were going to protest, we were going to march, we were going to walk out and everybody from ASPIRA. That was the time that we were walking down (inaudible). But as to the reason why -- I don’t remember why. JJ: But you were a member of ASPIRA. My daughter (inaudible) school. DF Jr.: Yeah, I think ASPIRA had an office on North Avenue, didn’t they? JJ: I’m not sure where it was. DF Jr.: North Avenue, just west of Milwaukee somewhere. They had a thing there. [01:11:00] JJ: So, you were involved with the ASPIRA club. Any other clubs or organizations that you were involved in? DF Jr.: No, I can’t think of anything. We used to hang out at Oscar Mayer. We used to play the Mayer boys in there and the (inaudible). We used to play basketball 38 �against them. Back then, when these little groups used to hang out together in the streets and the blocks, it was all about protecting the neighborhood. It was never thinking of who you were going to fight or anything like that. We never -they never went to other areas to fight or to look for trouble because they were this color or that color. [01:12:00] It was never like that. At least what I can remember growing up in the beginning. JJ: Now, one of the things we had (inaudible). One of the things that -- one of the main issues we were fighting against was -- well, it wasn’t clear then. It wasn’t clear then. We made it clear later. One of the main issues we were fighting -- we were trying to save -- stop Puerto Ricans from being kicked out of Lincoln Park. Do you remember that at all? Our demonstrations and things like that to try to stop it? My question is not only do you remember it but how do you feel that there’s no more Puerto Ricans in Lincoln Park? And what do you think is the reasons [01:13:00] that they left? DF Jr.: Well, I just think that eventually it’s -- people with money moved in. They moved us out. I mean, that’s what happened there. I mean, a lot of us didn’t have money that lived there in that time. JJ: What do you think -- did they move us out or do you think people just kind of grew old and said, “I’m going to move out there?” What do you think is your -there’s no right or wrong answer. I’m just trying to get your opinion. DF Jr.: I think in my opinion, I think eventually they moved us out. As people with money moved in, as they started taking over the neighborhood, buying the properties [01:14:00] fixing the properties, bringing them up to the point where you couldn’t 39 �afford to live there, people had to move out. I mean, you can’t buy a home there for less than probably half a million dollars or something. All of that area there where we used to live is pretty expensive. JJ: And what do you (inaudible)? DF Jr.: Well, I don’t think there were too many people that owned, Hispanics that owned buildings there. Yeah, the Medinas owned a lot of the property on Bissell. But I think the majority of people that lived there rented. They really didn’t own property. I mean, as a kid, I don’t remember people owning property. JJ: So, that was one of the (inaudible). You didn’t know people that (inaudible). DF Jr.: No, the only person that I knew that owned any property were the Medinas. And that was our block. Bissell was our block [01:15:00] from Wisconsin to Armitage. That was our little group that we -- after we left the Kings is where we hanged out. JJ: Ask Mirta if she wants to say something? Because I told her I would put her in (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: Okay. Yeah. About her brother? JJ: Yeah. And if I (inaudible). (background dialogue) JJ: I’m just trying to -- if you can give me [01:16:00] your name. MIRTA FIGUEROA: Sure, my name is Mirta Figueroa, and I’m Diego’s wife. JJ: And did you live in Lincoln Park at all? MF: No, I didn’t. I lived in the Lake View area. JJ: The Lake View (inaudible). Did you -- when did you first come to Chicago? 40 �MF: I was born and raised in Chicago. My parents are from Puerto Rico. JJ: (inaudible) and what’s their names? MF: Pedro and [Angela Velez?]. JJ: And so, you came from Arecibo to Lake View? MF: My -- no, I was born and raised in Chicago. I was born and raised in Chicago. JJ: And your parents came from (inaudible). MF: My parents came from Puerto Rico in -- I’m sorry. [01:17:00] I don’t remember JJ: Was it the ’60s, ’80s? MF: I want to say it was like 1950s about. Yes. JJ: Okay, 1950s. And are they back in Puerto Rico? MF: No, since the 1950s they been here. So, they’ve been here for over 60 years. That’s correct, yes. JJ: Okay. And have they bought homes? MF: No, they have not bought homes. They lived in the -- near north side Chicago most of their lives. JJ: Do they still live there? MF: They presently live in a senior citizens’ high rise where my in laws also live in the north side of Chicago. They’ve been there now five years. JJ: And [01:18:00] we were talking about La Union (inaudible) group? MF: Well, yes, my brother Leo. He was in La Union, the leader. Yes, the leader. JJ: So, did you go to any of their dances? MF: Absolutely, yes. JJ: And so, what did they play? 41 �MF: Salsa. JJ: Salsa (inaudible). My cousin is the leader of (inaudible). DF Jr.: I didn’t (inaudible). JJ: Yeah. He was partner (inaudible). MF: So, you probably -- excuse me. You probably met my brother [Eligio?]. JJ: I didn’t meet him in person. I met him (inaudible). MF: You probably met him, yes. DF Jr.: Actually, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) you had a thing at [People’s Park?] one day and Leo played at the park. You hired Leo -- I don’t know if you hired him, the Young Lords. But they played at the park one day. JJ: Was (inaudible). DF Jr.: Yeah, but this was at People’s Park. And Leo was there. And you (inaudible). (laughter) JJ: So, what do you remember of La Union (inaudible)? MF: Well, my husband Diego and I would go to their dances. We had lots of fun. They were very well known for their music, [01:20:00] the excitement, the way they played, the instruments, the singing. So, that’s what you’d describe it. The music was clean. No foul language. And most importantly, their emphasis was to unite the different nationalities. JJ: (inaudible). MF: Yes. JJ: So, that was the mission of La Union. 42 �MF: Correct. And it was the excitement. It kind of reminded me of [Hector Navo?], you know, his music is well known, and for them, vocally, it was to unite all different types of people regardless of what nationality, the plan was unite, correct, unite them. And it was joyful. And it was to have a good time the clean way, which is really dancing, enjoying the music, socializing with one another. [01:21:00] It’s true. That’s why it was called the Union. And everybody enjoyed it. We’d go home, and we’d be happy, you know, joyful that we spent some time together talking to one another, listening to the music, the lyrics. It was all about really uniting together. JJ: I just wanted to (inaudible) I will ask you same question. How did you feel about -- when you were (inaudible) was there any (inaudible)? MF: At Lincoln High School? Yes. I went to Lincoln High School, and there were many different types of nationalities there. And it was pretty -- well, at that time, at least the people that I was around with who -- there were some, of course, who were gang related. JJ: What year at Lincoln was that? MF: I was in ’71 to ’74. And there were those, of course, who were with the wrong [01:22:00] crowd and those who weren’t. And we were one of those that weren’t obviously. We were brought up very conscientious and being aware of your surroundings and not to be with the crowd that influenced you in wrongdoing. So, I think -- as far as my high school days, (laughs) they were good. JJ: Does that mean the neighborhood was changing, right? 43 �MF: Absolutely. The neighborhood was changing. Even though there were some gang related issues of individuals, different types of gangs. But I would say I think it was progressing. It was just starting to progress. It wasn’t as bad as I heard the early ’60s. I understand that was the worst. By our time, it was slowly getting better, I think, compared to now. I think it’s worse now than ever. [01:23:00] JJ: You’re talking about (inaudible). MF: Yeah. What I hear -- I don’t know -- but overhearing, things have gotten worse instead of better, unfortunately. JJ: (inaudible) programs (inaudible). MF: It would be wise for them to have. Absolutely. It would be wise to have these programs because it would really help these young ones presently to avoid wrong associations. JJ: What do you think about some poor people and Latinos that left the neighborhood? What do you think about that? MF: That’s very sad that they were left with not being directed. Is that the question you’re asking? How do I feel about the people before? JJ: Well, I’m not talking youth. I’m just talking about the community. MF: It’s sad to hear if there is. I don’t know -- [01:24:00] JJ: That Spanish people were moved out of there. MF: Sorry. (laughs) I’m sorry. I don’t remember. JJ: Oh, you don’t remember, okay (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Hopefully (inaudible). 44 �MF: Well, that’s the purpose of it, isn’t it, to help them? That’s what we do. We want them to be helped. We do -- it’s nice to hear that you’re doing this. JJ: There’s a lot of (inaudible) [01:25:00] DF Jr.: I mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). MF: You want to sit here, honey? JJ: (inaudible) DF Jr.: No, no, actually -JJ: Thank you, Mirta. DF Jr.: Like they do up north mostly -- they had their Hispanics up there. But a little different than our area. Our neighborhoods are a little tougher than -- and of course, they had -- like Mirta said, they had their different kinds up there. They had the Latin Eagles up there and that some (inaudible) police station. They were right there by the police station. But like in everywhere else, you’ve got your gangs and (inaudible) aristocrats. Aristocrats are just west of Sheffield there (inaudible). [01:26:00] Then you had your white kids. Simon City Royals. JJ: (inaudible) stable but then it gets unstable until it gets resettled. And in that process, that’s probably where (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: We went from being -JJ: And some (inaudible) some of the reasons for gangs to get worse, for them getting worse? DF Jr.: If the gangs got worse? JJ: Yeah, what do you think they got worse. I mean, there’s always groups (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). [01:27:00] 45 �DF Jr.: I mean, the Bloods came in. All the guys that came from Vietnam, they came back worse. Some of the guys that went to prison came back worse. So, I mean, (inaudible) things getting worse. JJ: So, when they came back from Vietnam, they were worse. They didn’t have anything to -- anyone helping them to readjust. DF Jr.: Right, it just got worse. JJ: They got worse. They needed some kind of -- DF Jr.: Well, when they were in Vietnam, they got into war drugs too. So, how can you get into -- how can you fight that war without drugs there? It was a tough war in Vietnam. So, a lot of guys got into drugs there. When they got back, they would just -- it just got worse. Of course, we had the worst drugs. JJ: And that’s where the shootings would start [01:28:00] (inaudible). DF Jr.: Yeah, we didn’t have no shootings growing up. Shootings didn’t start -- I don’t think shootings started like until ’72 maybe when things started to change. Back when we grew up, it was a face to face thing, man to man thing. It was a one to one thing. It wasn’t the way it is -- the way it changed. I mean, people used to respect each other. There’s no respect now in gangs. There’s no respect. I mean, the area’s changed a lot from what it was obviously. You can’t afford to live there on Armitage anymore. JJ: (inaudible) DF Jr.: No, no. [01:29:00] A lot of the guys came out of there feeling good. Some of the guys didn’t. A lot of the guys died. I know a lot of guys died. And the guys and the fights and the drugs and the overdoses -- there was a lot of stuff that when 46 �you go back there and you think about some of the friends that are no longer here. A lot of the guys made it. A lot of the guys came out of it. A lot of the guys did become policemen. I don’t know if you remember [Bobo?]. He’s probably like (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Bobo’s more like your age. JJ: And [Raymond?] and (inaudible) know him? DF Jr.: Yeah, yeah. JJ: They grew up (inaudible). DF Jr.: Bobo retired. JJ: [Smiley?] and Bobo and Raymond. DF Jr.: Yeah, Bobo retired. And I see Bobo every year. We have a turkey bowl every year. [01:30:00] JJ: (inaudible) DF Jr.: Yeah. Well, a turkey bowl is -- it’s Thanksgiving day where the guys meet to play football. Every year they play football. But the older guys don’t play football no more. All we do is drink. But the young kids, the sons and stuff, they still play football. But you always see Bobo there. You see his brother there. JJ: Where is this? DF Jr.: Usually, Mozart Park over there on Armitage. Last year we had Humboldt Park because something happened on Rosa Park. One of the guys works at Mozart Park so we said there. JJ: Oh, that’s nice. DF Jr.: Last year we had it at Humboldt Park. I’m not sure this year where it’s going to be. But I don’t remember if you remember [Moldo?]? 47 �JJ: I don’t know. DF Jr.: Pedro’s brother. He didn’t speak. [01:31:00] He was (inaudible) everybody -you see a lot of guys from (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible) DF Jr.: No, I can’t think of anyone -- can’t think of anything now, anybody else. JJ: Okay. I’m going to have you sit -- (break in video) JJ: Testing one, two, three. Testing one, two, three. Go ahead and say testing or something. DF Jr.: Testing, testing, one, two, three, testing. JJ: Okay. This is (inaudible) (Spanish) DIEGO FIGUEROA SR.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Well, this is the most important. I’ll tell you which one it is. I think it’s the -- I forget the medal. But this is the most important. This is the infantry badge, combat badge. And this one is the most -- the highest medal [01:33:00] between these. This is his Korean medal with his three tours. These stars means tours like summer, fall, winter, the three tours in the ’50s that he was there. Of course, these stripes mean tours. JJ: And his name is Diego too, right? DF Jr.: Yes. JJ: Diego Figueroa, Sr. DF Jr.: Yes. And these were given to him by the country of Korea. So, these three here were given to him by the country of Korea years later, not during, you know -- so, 48 �this one and this one -- these three here are from his -- are the same things that he’s got here. You can see this one here, this one here, this one here. These are the stripes that match their -JJ: That match their -- that -- DF Jr.: Of course, this one is this one. [01:34:00] This one is this one. This one is this one. But these were given to him by the country of Korea. JJ: Now, what is that little plaque on the bottom? What does it say there? DF Jr.: Right here? JJ: Yeah. DF Jr.: It just says -JJ: And if you want to lift it up just a little bit -- DF Jr.: It just says -- I can’t read it. JJ: It says something about -- is it -- DF Jr.: That is -- it says his rank, of course his unit. JJ: What is his unit? DF Jr.: It says the Third Division. It says Borinqueneers Company K. JJ: That was (inaudible). DF Jr.: Company K, 65th Infantry. And it’s got the year and the month that he was in Korea. [01:35:00] JJ: So, the Borinqueneers were what? What were they? DF Jr.: It was a group of segregated Puerto Ricans, the only segregated military group ever, all Puerto Ricans that fought in a war. Of course, this flag says the “Forgotten War” because the Korean War was sort of forgotten by many people. 49 �But it’s -- the Borinqueneers was all Puerto Ricans. It was the only -- if you look up the history of the Borinqueneers, it was the only segregated military group. JJ: Were these just Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico or from here? DF Jr.: All Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico. JJ: Okay, they were there, and they fought in the Korean War. Okay. Okay. [01:36:09 - 1:49:57] (Spanish) DF Jr.: His sister. JJ: Is in Ciales? DF Jr.: No, that she lived here. [01:50:00] She died. DF Sr.: JJ: (Spanish) But all the other ones were in Puerto Rico? DF Jr.: One of his brother lived in New York. The rest of the family lived in Puerto Rico, in Ciales. One of his sisters moved here, actually (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). The son Jose grew up with me. We were the same age. So, they go -- they lived on Bissell. JJ: Oh, okay. DF Jr.: So, his sister (inaudible). So, we grew up together. They came here later. They were already in their teens when they got here, when they moved here to Chicago. She graduated from eighth grade with me but then they moved to Puerto Rico. So, he didn’t go to [01:51:00] high school here. [01:51:04 - 1:53:30] (Spanish) DF Jr.: See, remember. There were other Puerto Ricans there on the front line fighting. They were there to relieve them, the other Puerto Ricans they were fighting. But 50 �they were there to relieve them. They were already fighting. And there was issues too because if you read about the Puerto Ricans in Korea, there were some issues in Korea when it comes to those that didn’t want to fight that were being court-martialed. There were some that would be court martialed. They were coming in right after that. [01:54:00] JJ: Oh, so there were Puerto Ricans protesting? DF Jr.: Protesting because they were tired of -JJ: Because they had been there too long? DF Jr.: Well, they were just getting killed. They were just being told to attack, to attack, to attack. And nobody -- they’re just -- too many of them dying. And they just said, “We had enough.” So, they were protesting. JJ: Well, I call it protesting. But I mean, they were refusing to -- DF Jr.: Yeah, I forget what you call it. I don’t know what military language -- what the word is. JJ: But they were refusing to fight. DF Jr.: Exactly. And they were being arrested. JJ: Court martialed. DF Jr.: Yeah, court martialed. Yeah, exactly. When you read about the part -- there is a history part where there was a group of Puerto Ricans that didn’t want -- that refused to fight anymore. DF Sr.: Yeah, refused to fight. They didn’t want to fight. DF Jr.: They came in right after that. They were sent there right after that part. JJ: And they went (Spanish) front lines. 51 �DF Jr.: Right to the front line. JJ: The front line, moved to the front line. DF Sr.: (Spanish) -- when I went to Korea, the only one I have is just, I don’t have this stripe. Just plain. JJ: And that’s a sergeant stripe. DF Sr.: JJ: Yeah, that’s the first stripe. So you became [first stripe?]. DF Sr.: This one here -- no the, second one. (inaudible) The other three, that’s a combat stripe. The three and three, a combat stripe. JJ: (Spanish) Okay, right there yeah. So, again, tell me what -- again, the stripes. DF Sr.: This is one, two, three. And one, two, three is a combat. And this one is the administration. You’ve got to go to school, okay? So, when I went to Puerto Rico. JJ: You went to school? DF Sr.: From Korea -- when I came back from Korea to Puerto Rico [01:56:00] they want to take my stripe off, everybody. JJ: Why? DF Sr.: Because you’ve got to go take a test to hold that stripe. You have to take a test. DF Jr.: These were combat stripes. DF Sr.: These are combat stripes (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) temporary stripe. JJ: Yeah, because they want to put it down. 52 �DF Jr.: It would not make any sense though. It would not make any sense that they would take your stripes away especially when you’re fighting in combat. You deserve those stripes. And the ones that went to him was -- they wanted to demote him because he didn’t take the test to deserve those stripes even though he got them in combat. So, they made him take a test. DF Sr.: A lot of Puerto Ricans -- when they went back to Puerto Rico -- DF Jr.: They lost their stripes. DF Sr.: They had take a test. If they don’t take the test, it’s (inaudible). [01:57:00] No matter you are three and three or your got a (inaudible) or whatever you had. JJ: So, how did you feel? DF Sr.: You’ve got to take a test. [01:57:00 - 02:00:30] (Spanish) DF Sr.: I don’t believe it. “You’re sure? You have the test already?” He said, “Right now, I’ll give it to you.” (Spanish). “Go to there. Go through that door.” Okay. So, I went. “Take your shirt off.” (Spanish) [02:01:00] [02:01:01 - 02:02:54] DF Jr.: But they were the 65th Infantry. DF Sr.: (Spanish). DF Jr.: They relieved the 295th. The 295th was already there. They’re the [02:03:00] 65th Infantry. JJ: Okay. They’re the 65ths. So, the Borinqueneers were the 65th. DF Jr.: Right. [02:03:07 - 02:04:44] 53 �DF Jr.: They were trying to take the hill. There’s different hills. Like (Spanish). DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Kelly Hill was a famous battle. If you look up Kelly Hill, [02:05:00] it was a big battle. [02:05:05 - 02:07:23] (Spanish) DF Jr.: When you were on the ground, what did you feel on the ground? DF Sr.: What happened -- in the wintertime, we had to be in white clothes. [02:07:45 - 02:08:05] (Spanish) DF Jr.: But no, tell them when you were like in the ground, what you felt and what -- you didn’t know what was on the ground. Remember you told me there were already dead people on the ground when you were like -DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Because it was dark. You know, it was real dark. You couldn’t see. [02:08:29 - 2:12:48] (Spanish) DF Jr.: But that’s what doesn’t make no sense because they sent them home. And that’s why I was fighting with the military and this court thing because [02:13:00] if he got wounded, you’re supposed to get a Purple Heart. Anybody that gets wounded in war -- you get a Purple Heart. They sent him home. I assumed that by them sending him home and not sending him back to the front line that he got wounded. But yet, they -- because, like I said, the records got burned in the fire in Virginia, whatever, that I didn’t have enough proof so he didn’t get the -because I was fighting for that Purple Heart. DF Sr.: Yeah, they’re supposed to give it to me, Purple Heart. 54 �JJ: There was no other way to prove that? DF Jr.: They sent me a letter recently. I’ve got the letter somewhere upstairs. But they said that if I didn’t have proof -- if I had somebody that was there that witnessed it -- there any proof that he was in the hospital, that he was at home after that. But all the paperwork got, I guess -DF Sr.: JJ: Yeah. They can’t find it in the record. The record, they can’t find. So, [02:14:00] I mean, how did they (inaudible)? DF Jr.: Since all the military records got in the fire. JJ: In the (inaudible)? DF Jr.: There was a fire. DF Sr.: He tried to get it. DF Jr.: A lot of the records for the Puerto Ricans -- they (inaudible) asked for -- these medals I got from the military. They sent them to me. They sent me these medals because they wanted them to reissue him his medals. These are all reissued from the military. JJ: So, the originals you didn’t have? DF Jr.: The originals he had when he was at home. But his mom probably got rid of them (inaudible). JJ: But they had a copy of that. So, they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: Well, they reissued these medals. JJ: So, they knew that he (inaudible). DF Jr.: Right. JJ: So, that record (inaudible). 55 �DF Jr.: They had the record. JJ: Was he the only Puerto Rican that they lost the records of? DF Jr.: No, a whole bunch of them, a whole bunch of people. JJ: Or was it is [02:15:00] his battalion? DF Jr.: A whole bunch of people. JJ: Is that what it was called? Battalion? DF Jr.: Infantry. Battalion infantry. JJ: Okay. So, his whole infantry was lost. DF Jr.: Right. JJ: The Borinqueneers’ information was lost. (Spanish) DF Jr.: I don’t know. We really don’t know about the Borinqueneers. But he was part of that group. So, I would assume that a lot of the records of the people that were in his group were lost. JJ: Because where was the fire at? Was it there? DF Jr.: It was in Virginia. It was at the military base. They had a big fire. JJ: So, it wasn’t just the 65th Infantry that got lost. DF Jr.: No. JJ: Other companies. Okay. So, it wasn’t about anything discriminatory. DF Jr.: No, no. Just all the records, all the military records that they had. And he was in that group that got burned. DF Sr.: All the papers, my records [02:16:00] -- the people’s records disappeared. They burned down. Right? DF Jr.: That’s what they told me. 56 �DF Sr.: JJ: (Spanish) Maybe there’s other way. [02:16:11 - 02:22:08] (Spanish) DF Jr.: It’s a city in Korea called Onchon. [02:22:11 - 02:23:31] (Spanish) DF Jr.: Funny when it comes to the Borinqueneers. It’s a little funny story. It was all [sad?], and this is a little funny part of this history. [02:23:44 - 02:28:48] (Spanish) DF Jr.: So, they took his mustache first. He’s the commanding officer, he says [gotta go, gotta go?]. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [02:28:57 - 02:34:07] (Spanish) DF Jr.: It was so dark that they had to hold on to each other’s clothes because if not, they would not see -- if they were to let go, they’d be lost because they wouldn’t know where to go. So, they had to hold one to -- everybody would hold on to the front guy. DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: And they always attacked the guy at the end, he was saying. So, sometimes in order to know that there’s a problem behind you -- when that guy loses his grip on the guy behind them, they know that the Koreans were behind them because they would attack from behind and they would get the last guy. [02:35:00] They would get the guy at the end one at a time. Boom, boom, boom. That’s how they would attack you one at a time. But the last guy -- boom, you know? DF Sr.: [02:35:18] 57 �DF Jr.: [02:41:46] Kind of like today. You’ve got South Korea, North Korea. South Korea is a democratic country. And I’m sure that when he went to -- when he was at war, there were certain Koreans that were against the communist Koreans. So, they were [02:42:00] willing to help out in whatever way they could. JJ: But he’s saying that there was no trust towards any Korean. DF Jr.: Well, yeah, obviously I wouldn’t trust them either. Koreans -- you know, yeah. You had the trust even though they -- even though you were there in their country. JJ: Even though you’re defending them, you’re still -- because you don’t know. You don’t know who they are. [02:42:27 - 02:47:04] (Spanish) DF Jr.: Tell them when they caught you speeding, that they caught you speeding on the base, that you had to go to court, that they wanted to take your stripe away. DF Sr.: Oh, the (Spanish). DF Jr.: No, for speeding on the base. They wanted to take your stripe away. JJ: Speeding in a car? DF Jr.: Yeah, he was speeding in a car. DF Sr.: Yeah, in a car. [02:47:29 - 02:47:51] (Spanish) DF Jr.: But didn’t they -- didn’t you have to go to court? They wanted to take one of the - they took one of the stripes away from you because -- you either gave them the stripe or you had to go to court [02:48:00] or you said, “Okay, well, forget it. I won’t go to court. Just take the stripe from me.” Remember? 58 �DF Sr.: Yeah (Spanish). DF Jr.: If you go to court, you can lose everything, you can lose all your stripes. Right? DF Sr.: JJ: (Spanish) So, you’re saying if they go to court, you can lose the stripes? DF Jr.: You lose them all. DF Sr.: JJ: You lose them all. And for anything? For traffic? DF Jr.: Yeah. I mean, because -JJ: Because they have a kangaroo court. They (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: And they just came from Korea. They were all war stripes. They weren’t really -he didn’t earn them as a -- taking tests, like you said, because that was afterwards, taking the tests in Puerto Rico. So, when they caught him for speeding, they -DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: It was more like a harassment [02:49:00] type of thing for me. They were Puerto Rican. They had more stripes than we did. You know? DF Sr.: (Spanish) (break in video) JJ: Testing one, two, three. Testing one, two, three. [02:49:36 - 03:01:34] (Spanish) DF Jr.: It could be that they were doing their business (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Then they get mad, they get mad and they say, (Spanish), what the heck, [buddy?]? Everybody drinking at this bar is making more money, then we’re 59 �making more money. It’s because the guy -- the German guy keeps Spanish and he brings all [03:02:00] the -[03:01:57 - 03:13:40] (Spanish) DF Jr.: So, ’63 up to ’75, we lived in that area. JJ: Sixty-three to ’75? DF Jr.: Sixty-three to ’75. I lived there. [03:13:51 - 03:19:03] (Spanish) DF Jr.: The cleaners, the [Rosarios?] were right there. JJ: (Spanish) DF Jr.: No, no, no, cleaners. Right next to the five and ten. That’s where we would take my clothes all the time. I used to take them to clean them. DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Are you talking about [Martinez?], Martinez barbershop. JJ: Yeah, I remember. But what was on that corner? DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Just west of Fremont, west of Fremont, on the south end, between Dayton and Fremont. JJ: On the south end? DF Jr.: Well, you know the church was on Dayton and they had a grocery store right across the street and they had the laundromat on the other corner on Dayton. They had a little grocery store. [03:20:00] JJ: Everybody didn’t like our church (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Sr.: (Spanish) 60 �JJ: This is good because I forgot about Martinez and the story, the [Rubios?] and the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: They had the little grocery store that became a liquor store. JJ: (Spanish) DF Jr.: It was a restaurant right next to us. JJ: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Next to us. JJ: Is it next to you? DF Jr.: On Bissell. JJ: Oh, you’re on Bissell, yeah. DF Jr.: There was a park. And then, right next to it was a little restaurant. [03:22:00] JJ: Oh, there was a restaurant there too? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DF Jr.: (Spanish) [Felix Quinones?]. It was right there on the -- right next to the bar there was a little restaurant called Quinones. But (inaudible). DF Sr.: (Spanish) END OF VIDEO FILE 61 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b9d4e3ab18737db3649cc5dab08fc21e.mp4 b2d7e82429446173569030da56773604 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Diego Figuearoa, Jr. vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Diego Figuearoa, Jr., entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 8/25/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Figueroa_Jr_Diego Title A name given to the resource Diego Figuearoa, Jr. video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Figueroa, Jr, Diego Description An account of the resource Oral history of Diego Figuearoa, Jr., interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 8/25/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec6630156570208f588c41f260363b08.pdf 9e70cd417bb7b0d4c04ab83418826312 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ana Encarnación Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/10/2012 Biography and Description Ana Encarnación is from the San Juan metropolitan area of Puerto Rico and describes growing up there in the late 1930s and 1940s. She arrived in Chicago in the 1950s, settling in Old Town, along the border dividing Old Town from neighboring Lincoln Park. She lived on the south side of North Avenue, at the corner of Sedgewick. This is significant to note because it was the same barrio on either side of North Avenue, and on either side of Interstate 94. It was demonstrated later by community activists that the city used some areas of this highway to divide neighborhoods. The Puerto Rican barrio of the early 1960s stretched all the way from La Clark into Lincoln Park, and then west into Wicker Park and into Humboldt Park. For sure, then it was never called by those official names, as those were only the official city neighborhood boundaries which common folk Puerto Ricans were unaware existed. Their neighborhood was only one, as they shopped at the same stores, went to the same theatres, churches, restaurants, entertaining themselves at the same parks, beaches, and social eventsMs. Encarnación recalls that the early 1950s in Puerto Rico were rough for someone like her who sympathized with the Nationalist Party of Don Pedro Albizu Campos. She was never a member of the Party, but she loves Puerto Rico and has always wanted Puerto Rico to belong to the Puerto Ricans and to break from under the control of the United States or anyone else. When the Young Lords decided in 1968 to start to defend the Puerto Ricans and the poor from being displaced, it was her dream come true to join the �Young Lords Movement. She saw it as a way to help her people. Although Ms. Encarnación would hear the negative things that the police and the media were saying about the Young Lords, she says she did not believe any of it. She had already experienced a similar kind of repression in Puerto Rico in the 1950s as she herself was persecuted, and so she watched only for what she believed to be true. She was determined at all costs to not let the authorities prevent her from becoming politically engaged in the Lincoln Park community. Ms. Encarnación was in nursing and so she began to work in the Young Lords’ Emeterio Betances Free Health Clinic. The clinic was directed by Martha and Alberto Chavarria; Mr. Chavarria was the Young Lords’ Minister of Health. The Chavarrias are of Mexican descent and arrived at the Young Lords’ People’s Church on Armitage Avenue and Dayton Street via their membership in the Medical Committee for Human Rights. This committee was founded by Dr. Quentin Young. Dr. Young also helped to set up neighborhood clinics for the Black Panthers, providing his own personal funds when necessary and helping to secure used equipment and other hospital resources. Doctors, medical and nursing students were recruited to volunteer in the clinics. Dr. Quentin Young and the Medical Committee for Human Rights had a progressive history that included providing emergency medical care for the protesters at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in 1968. Dr. Jack Johns was the doctor on duty at the Betances Clinic. He and a committee that Ms. Encarnación was a member of directed the clinic for many years, long after the Young Lords left the People’s Church. The clinic was later transferred to St. Teresa’s Church. Ms. Encarnación describes how the volunteer staff, including herself, not only provided many long hours of free services to the Puerto Ricans and poor of Lincoln Park but when money was low, they also donated from their own personal savings to keep the clinic afloat. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/98e4f3b06c2d7bbd26a975e399e7c70e.mp4 f81fa79d6bd7ccddb6da097c91e8a05a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ana Encarnación vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Centros médicos--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Encarnacion_Ana Title A name given to the resource Ana Encarnación video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Encarnación, Ana Description An account of the resource Ana Encarnación is from the San Juan metropolitan area of Puerto Rico and describes growing up there in the late 1930s and 1940s. She arrived in Chicago in the 1950s, settling in Old Town, along the border dividing Old Town from neighboring Lincoln Park. She lived on the south side of North Avenue, at the corner of Sedgewick. When the Young Lords decided in 1968 to start to defend the Puerto Ricans and the poor from being displaced, it was her dream come true to join the Young Lords Movement. She saw it as a way to help her people. Ms. Encarnación was in nursing and so she began to work in the Young Lords’ Emeterio Betances Free Health Clinic. Ms. Encarnación describes how the volunteer staff, including herself, not only provided many long hours of free services to the Puerto Ricans and poor of Lincoln Park but when money was low, they also donated from their own personal savings to keep the clinic afloat. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Medical care--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/72c3422515b8d54d6ae274ad2c872903.pdf e9f7a484a168227205059aa89a379079 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: William E. Dunbar Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/15/2012 Biography and Description Billy Dunbar is a member of the Chicago Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP). He is from the south side of Chicago. He keeps up with all the political events related to the BPP and the Rainbow Coalition, including the era of their origins. Mr. Dunbar is also a founding member of the Illinois BPP History Project, which is currently conducting oral histories to document the Chicago Chapter, so that the work of their members is not forgotten. Their project also wants the public to remember the impact that BPP Chairman Fred Hampton not only had on the African American community but on other communities of color and the poor. Mr. Dunbar is also a businessman. Today he owns a copy center.Chicago BPP Chairman Fred Hampton and BPP member Mark Clark were murdered in a predawn raid on December 4, 1969. Prior to his death, Mr. Hampton started a Rainbow Coalition, which was nurtured by Bobby Lee. The original members included the Young Patriots, a group of Hillbillies or southern whites from the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago of whom many had migrated from Appalachia and other southern areas, and the Young Lords from Lincoln Park. The Young Lords first met Fred Hampton at John Boelter’s and Ralph Rivera’s home and joined the Rainbow Coalition directly through Fred Hampton. Bobby Lee who was the BPP Field Marshall then began working more directly with José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so we’re going to start. And again, like I said, just kind of relax. Give me your name, Billy, and date of birth, and where you were born. WILLIAM DUNBAR: I could’ve had all this prepared. Yeah, my name is Billy Dunbar. I was born on the South Side of Chicago in 1949 in September, a longtime South Side resident. I’ve lived between the neighborhood, the community Chatham and South Shore. Going to have to keep asking questions. JJ: Chatham, South Shore. WD: I attended Harlan High School from 1963 to 1967, and Harlan High School was the equivalent of what Whitney Young is today, a college prep. We had a number of National Merit scholars. We had a good sports team, a good academic program. We were good Americans. [00:01:00] JJ: What about the grammar school that -- WD: Well, we kind of integrated the grammar school, Burnside Elementary School, 90th and Langley on Chicago South Side. Went there. JJ: What do you mean you kind of integrated? WD: Well, we moved to 8900 South in 1961, and the South Side of Chicago was pretty well segregated, meaning that as whites moved out, Blacks were able to move in. In some areas – JJ: What areas? WD: Give you an example, the area where we lived was at 89th near King Drive. It was South Park Avenue. Black people did not live in any significant numbers 1 �west of Halsted at that time, and those Blacks who did move into the area, let’s say, 7900 South and [00:02:00] Western -- I mean Halsted -- is 800 West, anybody that moved across that line was subject to having their houses vandalized, their garages burned down, crosses on their lawns, Knight Riders, the whole business, as if we were in the South. JJ: What year was this? WD: This was 1957 through ’64, ’65. There was a lot of racial turmoil in those changing neighborhoods. JJ: So, in ’57, ’59, around there, nobody’s west? You said west? WD: No significant numbers of Black people lived west of Halsted in 1958, and as late as 1965, they would still -- although Blacks were then attending Morgan Park High School, which is far south in Morgan Park. Calumet High School, which is where Doc Satchel attended, that was a school recently [00:03:00] integrated. JJ: Doc Satchel was a -- WD: Doc Satchel was a minister of health in the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party. He attended there before he became a Panther. That school was a hotbed of unrest because this was a new area for Blacks to attend in any significant numbers. Calumet High School was 80th and Racine, around in that area. I don’t remember the exact address. JJ: It was a hotbed of unrest, you said. WD: Yeah, a lot of racial turmoil there. JJ: Was it racial turmoil? Or you were young; was it gang or racial? WD: No, it was race. 2 �JJ: It was race. WD: Another school that’s been solidly Black for a long time is South Shore High School. In 1966, it was predominantly white. Now it’s predominantly Black and has been probably since 1969. [00:04:00] JJ: Okay, this is 79th Street and that, but then later on, you get The Woodlawn Organization, What were they doing? Were you familiar with them? TWO. Is that what it’s called? WD: TWO was probably established as a significant entity about 1965, ’66. JJ: This is later. WD: This is later, like I said. Actually, the first house I lived in was 6741 South Avenue, which is in Woodlawn. TWO’s main focus area was 63rd Street, which was a main artery, Cottage Grove, which is a main street. In fact, my parents, Black people didn’t live south of 63rd Street when my parents were teenagers, so the spread of [00:05:00] Black population in the city of Chicago has been gradual but steady. JJ: So, on the South Side, what was the first area of the Black community, the African American community? WD: Famous Black Belt, Black Metropolis around -- actually, it started south of the Loop, and it spread southward from there year after year after year after year, 47th Street, just incrementally block by block by block as whites moved out. Integration, I mean, not integration, the migration from the south is where the Black population in Chicago came from. JJ: So, they’re starting near the Loop somewhere because of downtown jobs? 3 �WD: South Loop was because that’s where the train ended. That’s where you got off the train when you came from the south. There’s actually information on the books that tells you that Blacks from Mississippi and Alabama got off of one train and lived in one area, and Blacks from other southern states got off a different train and lived on the West Side. So, I don’t [00:06:00] remember which group lives where, but that’s kind of how that’s spread out. Jobs are incidental to that. JJ: Okay, so it didn’t have anything to do with jobs. WD: Not particularly, no. It’s a matter of living where -- you know, you get off the train here within that area. Who’s already there? You know people, and you live around your own kind. JJ: What’s your mother and father’s name? WD: My parents were both born and raised in Chicago. They both went to Englewood High School. I think DuSable was the other name. DuSable, Wendell Phillips, and Englewood were the three major Black-attended high schools. There were restrictions, and this is going back to 1945, 1943; there were restrictions for where Blacks could attend school as well. These things weren’t written down, but they just wouldn’t let you transfer in. So, for instance, my mother, who lived on 67th and Evans, was closer to Hyde Park [00:07:00] High School, but she had to travel all the way to Englewood, which is 67th and Stewart, a considerable distance west, because that’s where the Black students went. JJ: And what school was that? WD: That’s Englewood High School. JJ: Englewood, okay. And what was your mom’s name and your dad’s name? 4 �WD: Carlotta Dunbar and Wayne Dunbar. JJ: Okay, and your siblings, or were there any? WD: I have no brothers and sisters. I’m an only child. JJ: Okay. Wait, you said she had to travel? Who was going to travel? WD: Well, it was, you know, you got on the bus. My mother traveled and my father, well, my father lived in Englewood. My father lived on 61st and Racine, so for him, going to Englewood was a matter of coming back east. My mother lived at 67th and Evans. It’s a block off of Cottage Grove, so she had to travel west. Englewood was about 400 East on 63rd Street. JJ: So, how was it growing up then? I mean, [00:08:00] you were growing up in the African American community, right? WD: Right. JJ: And (inaudible) segregated. WD: No. And I guess my life was pretty comfortable because everybody in my neighborhood was Black. By the time we bought houses south of 87th Street, the neighborhood was changing, and I think there was one white family that lived within a block radius, and maybe there were a couple white kids that went to Burnside School with us when we were there, when we graduated. We were part of the Black baby boomers. You know, they don’t really consider, count Blacks as baby boomers, but we were there. And Harlan High School was built in 1963. When it opened, it was, I think, supposed to house like, say, 1,600 students. By the time I got there in 1963, it was overcrowded to the point that [00:09:00] there were 4,600 students. There were over 600 people in my initial graduating class, 5 �and they had mobile units, and they had periods, 1st and 9th, 2nd through 10th, 3rd through 11th, and 4th through 12th, 12 periods of classes to accommodate the volume of students that were there. JJ: And was it gang infested, or was it more stable? Or was it middle class or what type of neighborhood? WD: The area that Harlan High School is in was a middle-class Black community. There was some gang activity, but the gangs were not significantly developed at that time. You had some folks that would hang out because again, like I said, Harlan was pretty much a college prep institution, [00:10:00] so you had students who were really preparing themselves to go to college. And then you had the folks who just wanted to go and get high, smoking up in the washrooms, nothing unusual. Gangs did not really get organized in Chicago until after the ’60s, middle of the ’60s, when they started trying to train the gangs. What was it called? What kind of money did they get from the City? They had some kind of training programs where they tried to -- JJ: Oh, job training programs. WD: Job training programs. JJ: We had the YMCA (inaudible) program on the North Side. I don't know. WD: Well, no, they didn’t call it that on the South Side. They did have a lot of training programs, and they gave this money -- the most famous story is about Jeff Fort and how much money they got to initiate training programs for their membership, to rehabilitate them. 6 �JJ: But I mean, if they had training programs, that means that they already had some kind of inkling of the gangs. WD: Well, the Blackstone [00:11:00] Rangers. JJ: Are you trying to say that it was the poverty programs that started the gangs? WD: No. You know, gang’s a group of young men who hang out because they appreciate each other’s company, and they do things that are a little bit outside the law from time to time. Maybe they’re breaking curfew. Maybe they’re gambling. Maybe they’re drunk and disorderly. You know, maybe they don’t respect the law. Maybe they’re not being as respectful as they should be, but they were not set up to be criminal institutions, which they became after the ’60s. There was a change in focus among the gangs to consolidate their power, and they actually had connections and affiliations. There were all sorts of little subgroups of gangs all over the South Side, in each little [00:12:00] quarter. In various different communities, they had some type of different thing. JJ: They tried to go in branches or something? WD: Those subgroups of folks considered themselves to be Blackstone Rangers or whatever, and I don't know the gang history that well, but at a certain point, the Rangers consolidated subgroups and formed the Black P. Stone Nation, and by that time, if you look at the records, they were a criminal institution. They were doing the extortion. They were selling drugs, more than just marijuana. They were probably selling hard drugs, but I don’t have the information. I can’t speak on that. I was never a gang member. 7 �JJ: But do you remember what I’m saying? They were around, what street, 63rd Street or -- WD: There was gang activity everywhere. There was gang activity from -- I mean, Chatham, Chatham is one of the most solid middle-class Black communities in the country, and until [00:13:00] my eldest started passing on their properties to grandchildren, it’s been Black, well maintained, no boarded-up houses. Take exception to this latest real estate issues. There were limited foreclosures, so it was very stable. Yet still, you had areas. You had some folks still trying to be in a gang around Tinley Park, which is 90th and King Drive. You had gang activity along 95th Street, Syndicate Rangers up there. It was just cropping up. It was just a reality. JJ: It just started cropping up in the mid-’60s. WD: In the mid-’60s. JJ: Was it becoming unstable in the neighborhood? Did that contribute to it, or was it still stable when you got there? WD: The neighborhood remained stable until maybe as late as the ’80s. And then [00:14:00] at this point, I think there was more shootings. I think the harder drugs may have changed attitudes, and again, it was more a business venture, and then some turf issues. JJ: The drugs contributed, or no? Something must’ve contributed to making it more - I mean, there’s always youth hanging out together. But you don’t think something contributed, some outside force? 8 �WD: I couldn’t speak to it. I don’t even have a theory on it. I just know that there was a rise in violence. JJ: And this began in the mid-’60s. WD: Yeah. JJ: Ok, but other than that, before that, the neighborhood was fine, good place to live? WD: Well, the gangs never got the best of Chatham. It’s probably worse now than it has ever been. Now we’re concerned that we don’t have safety in our own communities because the youngest people who have no respect for the law, nor do they also have no respect for the community. So, [00:15:00] where they’re trying to settle a beef with one another with a .22 or a .38 pistol, they’re just shooting into a crowd and shooting across the street. They’re kind of indiscriminate. And their gang affiliations don’t hold them in any way responsible for their actions. You know, there’s no OGs; there’s no old guys that can come and say, “Hey, you’re claiming to be P. Stone,” or, “You’re claiming to be Blackstone. We need you to cut this out.” They just do not respond, and that’s the current phenomenon. But there was never, in Chatham, any significant gang activity that disrupted the community. JJ: And you’d never joined the gang. WD: No. JJ: How did you look at the gang then? WD: Well, I recognized their presence, but they weren’t doing anything I was interested in doing. And they were self-serving. They were people who were at 9 �a point in life and getting drunk and hanging out and [00:16:00] getting drunk the next day and hanging out, and that’s all they wanted to do, get their hustle on, get some money. That didn’t appeal to me. JJ: So, what was appealing to you then? WD: Well, you know, I was in high school, preparing for the future. Where it was, I didn’t know. Biggest issue for me was Vietnam. I had the unique occurrence of watching footage of Vietnam and the civil rights activities in the south on the news every night. As part of the news segment, there’d be these statistics on how many people were killed in Vietnam, troop movements, this, that, and the other, and then they might do a spot on the civil rights struggle in the south. And [00:17:00] at 16 and 17, Vietnam is very far away; the war is very far away, but at 18, we were required to fill out our Selective Service forms. We were required to register with the government our whereabouts as part of the Selective Services and then have our names entered into a lottery if we weren’t in school. And our names would be drawn, and then we would be conscripted to fight, or conscripted to join the Army. That was a little disturbing, so by the time I turned 18, I had to decide whether or not I was going to go to war or go to college, so I opted for college. But again, watching these things unfold on television, it didn’t make sense to me that I would go to Vietnam and fight for freedom for Vietnamese people in Vietnam when Black people couldn’t go down south and drink from water fountains and couldn’t eat at lunch counters. You know, they’re still living in houses with no running water, that [00:18:00] things significantly hadn’t changed since -- 10 �JJ: This was talking to community, or this is something that you’re reading? WD: Well, this is something that I saw on television. These were things that were coming together in front of me. JJ: But they’re hitting you. WD: They’re hitting me. And the conversations that we were having in school primarily centered around the war. You know, we’d had our skirmishes, and I’d had friends who were, quote/unquote, run out of white business areas like Roseland. They literally were chased out of Roseland at dark by white kids, and I didn’t have that particular experience, but I was confronted with white people, white kids in other areas when we traveled on the bus and things like that. JJ: You were experiencing prejudice and -- WD: Prejudice and racism, yeah. JJ: But then it’s your government, or it’s your country. How are you looking at it? WD: (laughs) [00:19:00] JJ: Are you looking at it like, “This is my country, my beloved country”? WD: Well, up to the point. Now, you know, I didn’t have a significant world view. I’m living in an insulated community, working-class community where you’ve got teachers, bus drivers, steel mill workers, housewives, people going to college, people with college education. You’ve got just a rich mix of working-class people in my community and I’m seeing all the time, and so that’s what America’s all about. Now, we happen to be Black, so for me to go to 95th and Western and be confronted by white kids who are calling me nigger and say, “What you doing here,” and this kind of stuff, to go and file an application for a job and have them 11 �put it in the garbage, you know, [00:20:00] those kind of things contrast greatly with the American ideals. JJ: Was the discussion related to this, what you’re saying now? You said you were having discussions in school. WD: Conversations finally came to that. I kind of came to my own political sense by myself. We were looking at things more individualized as students. In 1966, at Harlan High School, there was no Black Student Union. There was no particular historically based Black consciousness movement. We were aware that we were Black people, but it wasn’t based on study. It wasn’t based on our understanding of history. It wasn’t based on our understanding of our relationship with white people, but we just knew we were Black, [00:21:00] and in certain cases, we were catching hell because of that. We could always hear stories from our parents about their confrontations with white people. JJ: And they grew up in Chicago, your parents. WD: Yeah. Well -- JJ: They were having the same problems? WD: They were having issues with discrimination on the job. Their issues, for instance, again, like I said, we moved at 8900 South in about 1957, and there was a local savings and loan, Chesterfield Savings and Loan. They declined to allow my parents to have a savings account there, based on race. JJ: Clear. WD: Straight out. “We won’t let you put --” JJ: “Don’t put no money.” 12 �WD: What excuse do you have when you won’t let somebody put money in your bank? And we’re not talking about a checking account; we’re talking about a savings account. JJ: They just basically told them, “You can’t come here”? WD: “We’re not going to accept you.” Yeah. “We’re not going to do business with you.” [00:22:00] So, in all the most subtle forms, and that was a conversation that I heard from my parents; they talked about racism in the north as being extremely subtle. They said, “At least (audio cuts out) stand with white people.” So, these were things that were just common to me. And again, I don’t remember having a lot of discussions about civil rights with my classmates, but among the young men, the war was preeminent because we all knew we were going to have to deal with that at some point. I do know people that joined. I know I lost a cousin to Vietnam. He was in the country like six months and got killed in a helicopter. I have classmates that didn’t return. JJ: (inaudible) you had to go through school? WD: Well, I didn’t go to Vietnam. I didn’t join the service. I didn’t participate in the Selective Service system because I joined the Black Panther Party, and I actually sent in my [00:23:00] Selective Service card and told them I couldn’t participate. JJ: What do you mean? WD: I sent a letter in. I told them. I was like, “Hey, I’m in the people’s army. Our rules state clearly that we cannot be in any other army, and consequently I will not be able to participate in your war.” JJ: Just like that? 13 �WD: Just like that. I may still somewhere have in my files a copy of that later. However, that wasn’t what got me out of the military. But that is what I did. I knew people that had fled, were conscientious objectors, and at least one brother did some time for that. JJ: So, now, this is ’68 because of the Panthers and -- WD: Yeah, this is ’67, ’68. I joined the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party in 1968. They were doing organizing in the summer of ’68, and I kind of put my name -- JJ: When you say they were organizing, what do you mean? WD: They had not established a headquarters, but they -- [00:24:00] JJ: They hadn’t established a headquarters. WD: In the summer of 1968, there was no headquarters for the Illinois Chapter. There was no leadership cadre. There was no structure in the summer of 1968. They were just forming a structure, the basis for the party. JJ: So, how was the organizing? How were you forming? WD: It was word of mouth. There were some people who were Panthers who were making themselves known, and they were looking. I guess you could say they were recruiting. JJ: So, they were recruiting on a door-to-door basis or just a friend thing? WD: I found out, I was on a college campus. JJ: So, the campus in the colleges? WD: Yeah. JJ: They were recruiting? Okay. 14 �WD: They were recruiting, I guess, to some extent, on college campuses, and I was fortunate, the summer before I started college, to be on campus and get to meet some upperclassmen and to see [00:25:00] actually a poster, a flyer on a bulletin board that said the Panthers were here. So, you know, I said, “Well, where are they? I don’t see them.” One day, a guy comes up, and he puts his hand on my shoulder, and he says, “Are you Billy Dunbar?” I was like, “Yes.” He says, “Are you interested in learning about the Panthers?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “Come with me,” and that’s how it all began. JJ: So, they had specific people that were just organizers? WD: Yeah. JJ: And they were in the students. Now, there was a lot of speaking too, right? Was that related to the recruitment? WD: At the time I joined -- JJ: It was just word of mouth? WD: Right, it was word of mouth. At the time I joined, it was based on what little I knew about the party from television, from the newspapers, and I’m going to have to say I must’ve read a newspaper, a Black Panther Party newspaper and then made aware of their 10-point program because it was very concise, [00:26:00] and it spoke to a lot of issues that Black people had been coping with in America for a long time. And then it had the most important part, the tenth point that talked about the UN-supervised plebiscite, where Black people would get a chance to determine, or to speak on their own national destiny. (car alarm beeps) I don’t know if you want that horn in there. 15 �(break in audio) JJ: You were talking about the plebiscite. Do you remember that? WD: The important part of the 10th point, the 10th point of the 10-point program, is that it speaks to a need. It speaks to the fact that Black people, who were brought to America in chains and forced to work for generations without any economic compensation, had never been allowed to choose their own destiny collectively. [00:27:00] Nobody’s ever asked us what we thought about being here. Nobody ever asked us, did we recognize ourselves as a group? Nobody ever gave us a thought one way or the other, and we need to be able to collectively decide our future. Malcolm X pressed the issue of our condition as a matter of human rights, and the Black Panther Party came after Malcolm X and carried that issue forward again. Everything that the Black Panther Party has done has really based itself on human rights issues as opposed to civil rights issues. So, when I looked into scope of the platform of the program, I said, “This is what I want to do. This is where I need to be.” You know, a lot is made about President Kennedy, and he's a hero and [00:28:00] progressive and all the rest of this stuff, but one of his statements that he made is that, “Ask not what the country can do for you, but ask what you can do for the country.” And so, the concept of making the world a better place than you found it was appealing, and it was progressive, and it inspired a lot of people. So, as I said, even though I was a young Black man growing up in America, insulated in my Black community, I felt like I would have an opportunity to do the best for my country that I could do. And when my country rejected so many Blacks offhandedly, as evidenced by the civil rights 16 �struggle, then I shifted focus, and I said, “Well, you know, maybe we should be doing for ourselves. Maybe we should at least investigate that part.” JJ: So, this was a whole thing of self-determination? WD: Self-determination, [00:29:00] exactly. The best thing, one of the best things that happened by joining the Black Panther Party was the reading that we were required to do. Reading Frantz Fanon, The Wretched of the Earth, which is probably the basis for Black Panther philosophy and ideology, simple concept that Huey and Bobby looked to the Black people in America as a colony, similar to all the colonial states that Europe held in Africa, but Black people were a colony within the boundaries of the United States. And so, from that principle, we had not been allowed to achieve our own self-determination. The relationships were very similar, especially if you go by the outline of Frantz Fanon, the relationship between the colonists and the colonizer, because we certainly were colonized. All of our value structures were based on white people’s visions [00:30:00] and views. Even though we weren’t white, we used the same value structures that they used, except they could use it against us. So, The Wretched of the Earth is a primary source of reference, and it still holds true to today. JJ: When you did these readings, was it like a study group or (inaudible) classes? How were they run? WD: When the chapter finally got a headquarters in November of 1968, and -- JJ: This was on Madison? WD: This is on West Madison, Madison and Western. They started having political orientation classes. And some classes were just general political information 17 �classes for the public, and then there were other classes that were a little more detailed, which required reading, for people who were going to become party members. JJ: Oh, so it was a division that became the -- WD: Pretty much, because there was like -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) classes, and [00:31:00] this is more disciplined. WD: Right. They couldn’t require that people who were coming in who were curious about the party program, couldn’t require that they read the Red Book, read up on Marxism and Leninism, Frantz Fanon, various other pamphlets, Malcolm X. They couldn’t require that of the public, but if you’re going to be part of the organization, you had to be knowledgeable. JJ: So, you had to read the Red Book. WD: You had to read. There were assignments. JJ: Leninism and all that. WD: Now, when I finally got to Madison and Western, that’s when I met Fred Hampton, and at that initial time, I’m not sure if Che was the minister of education or not, because they had another brother teaching political orientation class. I want to say -- JJ: This was Billy? WD: Yeah, Billy “Che” Brooks. He was the minister of education, but they had another brother we called [00:32:00] Teach, who actually taught class. And someone asked a question of Fred once, “Well, this political orientation class, what’s that about?” He said, “How long does that take?” And Fred explained that that was 18 �where you would learn the ideology of the Black Panther Party. That’s where you would learn the principles. That’s where you would learn to understand and explain the platform and the programs of the party. And so, somebody else is still asking, “Well, how long does that take?” He says, “Well, think of it as a six-hour college course, where you’re going to be able to learn the basics of the party.” And so, I took it at that. JJ: Had you heard of Fred Hampton before? WD: No. I was not familiar with Fred Hampton until I got to Madison Avenue. And then conversation -- JJ: (inaudible) to this conversation. WD: Right. So, conversations after that around who was in charge, who was chairman, the structure [00:33:00] and all that, then that was presented to me. And shortly after I heard Fred speak, then I began to understand why he was in the position he was in. Initially, all the brothers was just brothers. You know, it was just some knowledgeable people serious about making a positive change to the Black people, and it was all good. But when Fred spoke, you could see his understanding of things. You could get a feel for his sincerity. He was extremely motivational. JJ: Well, you wanted to join the Panthers why? Some people draw an issue (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). WD: It was the most important group to be with. I didn’t see myself joining the NAACP. I didn’t see myself joining Corps. Operation Breadbasket, which was Jesse Jackson’s organization -- 19 �JJ: What was the problem with the NAACP? They’re a good organization. WD: Too conservative. Corps, it [00:34:00] wasn’t for me with them, but they were more job oriented, not that Corps was a bad organization; they just weren’t, quote/unquote, progressive enough for me. Breadbasket -- JJ: You definitely wanted to do something (inaudible). WD: Right. I was motivated to do something. Again, I’m 18, 19 years old, and my options are Vietnam or -- so, I’m not going to be a conscript and go fight for rights of other people when my people don’t have rights at home. JJ: So, that was clear. WD: That was my choice. JJ: That was clear in your head. WD: That’s clear in my head, and that was it. JJ: “There’s something wrong here, and I’m not going to do it.” WD: It’s the biggest wrong I could see. JJ: “You’re not going to force me into the service.” WD: Right. JJ: Okay. And so, now you’re looking for involvement. WD: Right. JJ: Had you been an activist before then? [00:35:00] WD: Nope, no activism. JJ: And no demonstrations or anything? WD: Nope, no politics whatsoever. JJ: Just, you were reading or -- 20 �WD: Huh? JJ: So, you were reading. I mean, out of nowhere, you -- WD: Well, no. I mean, this is a matter of, I’ve told people in recent years that there’s about a -- JJ: They weren’t paying you. The Panthers were not paying. WD: The Panthers did not pay a dime. We were volunteers. And let me go on record of saying that for my comrades, the people that joined the Black Panther Party are some of the most courageous individuals that have ever lived. No matter what the contribution, when you put the [tam?] on, when you put that Red Book in your pocket, you were a marked individual, and you stood for principles that the US government only espouses and never backs up. The Black Panther Party is one of the most important volunteer organizations to ever exist. Okay, [00:36:00] so many times, you hear about people who do heroic acts; they see a car on fire, and they snatch the door open and pull somebody out. Well, when you join the Black Panther Party, you’re basically doing that. You’re basically putting yourself between the police dog and the police and the citizen, and you’re showing Black people how to defend themselves and define themselves. And hands down, nobody’s done what we did. Nobody did it before then. Nobody’s done it since. Garvey has still on record the largest political organization of Black people in America, but he did not interface; he did not defend the masses of Black people. He did not educate them so they could defend themselves. He did not provide them any kind of short-term programs, but he was building a 21 �nation overseas. But again, the Panther Party members, my comrades, are the most courageous people that [00:37:00] I’ve ever met. JJ: You mentioned something important now. You said that he did not educate them so they could defend themselves. So, the Panther Party, was that one of their missions? WD: Well, I’m not sure. The Black Panther Party originated in 1960 as the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. Right now, I’m a member of the Illinois Chapter history project, and that’s given me an opportunity to communicate with members of the original central staff of the Black Panther Party to learn and understand how the Black Panther Party came into being, its principles, its practices. And so, to your point, the Black Panther Party originally was the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. It was responding to police brutality and oppression in the east Oakland area, which is not uncommon, which was not uncommon in Chicago, Boston, [00:38:00] Atlanta. In every Black community, we’ve had some kind of conflict where the police were trying to suppress the masses of Black people, so I think that self-defense is the primary human right. After 400 years of overt oppression and slavery, the question is, when they marched in Memphis, they had signs that says, “We are men.” We’re still trying to assert our humanity 400 years after the fact, and we’re still battling the same battles against racism that we’ve always battled, and it’s not going away. So, for the police to be a tool of oppression, Black Panther Party spoke for self-defense. They said, “We’re going to patrol. We’re going to make sure that if the brother’s wrong, he did a crime, you’re going to take him to jail, but you’re not going to break his head before he 22 �gets there,” and that’s how they started. So, in Chicago, we had conflicts with [00:39:00] the police as well. They were brutal. They subjected to take you in on a traffic stop and beat you up, extort money from you, and my father’s friend has suffered that indignity. I was aware that I’d been harassed as a young man, driving my father’s new car. JJ: Your father told you that he had been beaten up or -- WD: Friends, his friends and associates, they’ve talked of past stories, many stories about that. We still -- JJ: Like white groups or vigilante groups or -- WD: We’re just talking about interfacing with the police. JJ: Oh the police. WD: There were cases in terms of, I talked about how Blacks were not able to live in certain communities until the whites moved out. And so, as one Black would move on the block, then you’d be subject to harassment from whites who didn’t think Blacks should be there. [00:40:00] And so, there were stories that I overheard of how you would have to call back and have your neighbors, your old neighbors come and your family members come, and literally in one case, surround your house, showing your weapons, and let the locals know that you’re going to live here and you’re going to live here and defend your house because you have a right to do so. And that’s ahead of the Black Panther Party. That’s local Black citizens asserting themselves. And so, again, this is all part of what I’m aware of as a young man. And again, as it comes time to fill out that Selective Service card and join the Army, I’m not doing it. It was a big leap in a 23 �short period of time, but it made all the sense in the world for me to join the Black Panther Party. I was familiar with Black fraternities on campus, I went to Chicago State College at the time; [00:41:00] it’s now Chicago State University, and they had a big presence. They had Kappas; they had Sigmas; they had Alphas, and none of them had progressive programs for the Black community, and none of them interacted with high school students. None of them interacted with the local community. Even at that time, Englewood was a poorer community. It was still middle class, but it was lower middle class in terms of income, and it was a big issue between being money poor and values poor. In the ’60s, all Black people basically had the same values. As time has gone by, there’s been a shift in values across the country and in our community, which is why young people are disrespectful, which is why young people don’t have respect for life, which is why they shoot randomly, which is why they talk poorly, why they don’t show any love for their children or themselves. But that’s a whole nother issue. [00:42:00] The point I’m making is that there were some changes in the world, and the party had a place in all of that. JJ: So, now you’re a member of the party. What’s your volunteer? What kind of volunteering were you doing? WD: Well, initially everyone in the party sold newspapers and worked in the breakfast program, based on your abilities and your -- JJ: The first step was -- WD: The first step was newspapers and then -- JJ: -- sold newspapers and worked in the Breakfast for Children program? 24 �WD: Right. I think probably the Breakfast for Children program even before newspapers because that way, we had to be there at probably -- what was that -like five o’clock in the morning to be there to handle the children, open up the facility, prepare the food. JJ: Where was the breakfast program ran? WD: I worked in Madden Park, which is [00:43:00] basically 37th and Indiana, no, not Indiana; it’s closer to Cottage Grove. And there was one; the initial program was at Better Boys Foundation, but I didn’t go to that because I was the South Side. They gave me some leeway. JJ: Was that in the Better Boys Foundation? WD: Yeah, it was actually in the Better Boys Foundation. So, as I understand -- JJ: I think they’re located around Kedzie. WD: Yeah, they’re Kedzie. They’re 1500 South on Kedzie. In the first six months or so, I think we probably had four programs going. Again, I was just at Madden Park. And just like in any other organization, you kind of know the work you did, and you know the people you’re working with. You don’t necessarily know everything that was going on in that organization. I wasn’t -- JJ: You were doing what, dishes and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? WD: We did dishes. [00:44:00] We served kids. You might have a turn to cook. They find you couldn’t cook, you didn’t cook again, but you know, food preparation or serving the children or cleanup or security, any combination of those things. JJ: Was there any interaction with the kids? 25 �WD: Yeah. There was some conversation and talk. There was politicizing that you were letting them know what was going on, who was doing this, why we were doing it. In some cases, you might engage in a conversation and find out why a child would be coming to breakfast. We didn’t make a requirement that they fill out a form based on their income. We didn’t ask them how much money they had. They showed up; they were hungry; they got fed. It wasn’t a social center, but it was a social service to them. At that time, there were no free programs of the sort in the country. No federal, no state institutions were feeding children in the morning. [00:45:00] This is before Head Start. This is before free lunch programs. This is before free eye testing. The only thing that was going on comparable to what the Panther Party did was free immunizations. They were giving kids like shots for whooping cough and measles and that kind of stuff. That was free, because I went. My mother took me down, and I got those shots. But the breakfast program, that kind of stuff, dental care, none of that was going on in 1968, 1969, 1970, didn’t exist. JJ: How did you raise money for the breakfast program, and what methods were used for that? WD: One of the people who joined shortly after I did was Wanda Ross, and she was given the task of setting up the breakfast program. We would get instructions from [00:46:00] the coast. We would get instructions in terms of what party programs and what initiatives should be undertaken. And then we would have to carry those things out. So, Wanda Ross was responsible for coordinating, setting up the program and coordinating the program, meaning that she managed to 26 �create a methodology by which she solicited donations, cash money, or food. She helped set up locations, and she helped distribute the food to the locations. The money that she collected for the food for the breakfast program went to purchase supplies for the program. JJ: You said these were donations? WD: These were donations. JJ: So, did they have like (inaudible)? WD: They actually had to set up a not-for-profit organization in order to take the checks and process this money. The money did not go to the Black Panther Party. [00:47:00] It went directly to the not-for-profit organization. It was chartered by the State of Illinois. It was called Free Services, Inc., and Wanda still has those documents to this day. JJ: Now, are these meetings with people with money, basically what I’m saying, they’re meeting in people’s houses? Are these fundraisers, or are these like collections that are done on the ground? I remember more like what Lucy Montgomery, to her house, we (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WD: The collection of funds happened on many different levels. At each rally, we talked about the programs that we had initiated, and we asked people to make contributions. In [00:48:00] parallel to that, individuals who registered at party programs would sponsor meet-and-greets at their homes. JJ: Meet-and-greets, they were called? WD: Right. JJ: I think they called them coffees. 27 �WD: Right, coffees, whatever, the meet-and-greets, where you go, and somebody would have a social gathering. JJ: They were called meet-and-greets? WD: I believe so. And people who were interested in supporting the party, contributing to the party would be in attendance, and party members would go and mix with the crowd and hopefully leave with donations. (audio cuts out) were in attendance who would donate to parties, party chapters all across the country anonymously because they couldn’t afford to be directly associated with the party because the government was trying to suppress us. I didn’t participate in any of those type of fundraisers. I do know, in cases where Model Cities grants, Model Cities was this City of Chicago program, and they took money from the [00:49:00] Model Cities program and gave that to the gang members. They were using that money for job training for gang members, and that’s part of what happened with the gangs in terms of them establishing a more prominence and a more independence. They saw the money, and they went to work to secure it, and they turned that money into something else for themselves. JJ: So, Model Cities was giving the gang members money. WD: Mm-hmm, through the Model Cities. JJ: It was also creating urban renewal. (inaudible) WD: Yes, which is why -- think about Model Cities. I talked about the expansion of Black people living in Chicago on the South Side. So, they spread from the Black Belt, which was south of the Loop, 35th and Cottage Grove, east and west to State Street to the lake, and they moved southward, so 43rd Street, 47th Street 28 �[00:50:00] Regal Theater was a hub of activity, was a hub of the Black Belt, up to 51st Street and Grand Boulevard. That was a solid Black community all through the ’30s and ’40s. The Regal Theater has its own fame. Forty-seventh Street and South Center was just a hub of activity. It was like Harlem. And as Blacks moved further south into Woodlawn, again, my parents talk about 63rd and Cottage Grove being a borderline. You couldn’t go west of Cottage; you couldn’t go south of 63rd Street. So, my parents eventually were able to live at 67th and Evans, which is just across the border, so again, another expansion. Well, that’s Woodlawn. In the ’60s, it’s alleged that the gangs, in conjunction with the University of Chicago and all this Model Cities thing, we talk about urban renewal, ran the Black property owners [00:51:00] out of Woodlawn, burn them out, terrorize them, whatever, gang activity. Now you’re talking about destabilizing community. The Blackstone Rangers, which were created on -well, they had to pick a name, so they were on Blackstone, so they called themselves the Blackstone Rangers, and that gang, in conjunction with this money and some other issues -JJ: They were working with the University of Chicago. WD: Well, it served the University of Chicago. University of Chicago was -- JJ: But there was arson going on. Is that what you mean? WD: That’s right. JJ: Was there arson going on? WD: There was probably arson going on. There was a lot of slumlords at that time. JJ: You said that they ran the property owners out. 29 �WD: They did. The area between 60 -- JJ: How did they do that? How would they do that? WD: Through intimidation. JJ: You know people that were intimidated? WD: I do not. I don’t know anybody who was [00:52:00] directly intimidated, but the stories continue. You could see the gang -- JJ: This was stories that existed at that time. WD: Right. JJ: In the newspaper or just -- WD: In the newspaper and in the grapevine, and probably TWO will have a better reference of that as well. TWO was a community-based organization that was trying to counter the gang activity to some degree to stabilize the community. They ended up being more of the current landowners for this region south of University of Chicago. JJ: So, they became the landowners. WD: After about four years, they began to buy this land. Woodlawn has only started being rebuilt in the last 20 years. For 30 years, Woodlawn was as barren as Roosevelt Road was after the King riots. But the King riots took Roosevelt Road out, west of Circle, Circle to Western. The riots, they burned all that [00:53:00] property down. But Woodlawn was depleted over a period of years because the University of Chicago wanted to control -- they wanted to create a buffer for themselves. University of Chicago created a buffer, no housing between 61st Street and 63rd Street. Numerous properties, multi-unit buildings were just razed, 30 �torn down, so you could almost see from 63rd Street to 61st Street, a buffer around the University of Chicago. The University of Chicago was given the right to change -- they weren’t restricted by any building codes. They had no limitations. They could redesign the area any way they wanted to if the Mayor Daley and the city council gave them that right to do an urban study in that region. So, up until the last 20 years, they had not even redeveloped that area, sitting on the land, but there is evidence that the gangs were complicit [00:54:00] in destabilizing the community and running out the few local property owners there were. JJ: You’re saying that they got monies from Model Cities. WD: They got money from Model Cities to train, to give the membership -- JJ: Job training? WD: Job training and education and the rest of the stuff, but there’s not a lot of evidence that they had jobs after that. JJ: So, they had job training, but there was no jobs. WD: Right. JJ: But the significant thing is that Model Cities was connected with urban renewal. WD: Right. There was a connection between -- JJ: And Mayor Daley. WD: Yep. JJ: And they also gave money to the gangs. WD: Yes. 31 �JJ: That’s the significant thing. In the community or the newspapers and the grapevine, it is being said that the property owners were being evicted, or being terrorized, [00:55:00] rather than being evicted, by the gangs. Is that what you’re saying? WD: When Black people tried to move beyond the boundaries of their communities, the biggest fear that white people had was that their property values were going to plummet. So, if you have, in your streets, a group of young people who are not being held in check by the law, who are running criminal activities, who are intimidating locals, if there’s arson or if there’s just a lack of police response, if they’re destabilizing your community and your tenants are moving out, your property values are going down. And at some point, you want to sell or get out of the area to protect yourself and protect your values. So, you know, the reality is what the reality is. Now, you may not be able to show [00:56:00] who was doing what when, and then again, you might be able to find that out now because now after 50 years, there’s a lot of history out here, so some of these activities have been documented. JJ: During that time, you’re growing up in a segregated situation; racism exists, but now the Panthers are beginning to work with (inaudible). Were you there when they had the Rainbow Coalition, or had you heard of the Rainbow Coalition at that time, or did you come later? WD: The point about the Panthers was that -- JJ: Because that was 1969, but when did you join the party? WD: I joined the party in 1968. I am what you call a short-timer. 32 �JJ: Okay. What does that mean? WD: I joined in 1968, let’s say, officially when the chapter opened its headquarters in November. Through the winter, [00:57:00] breakfast programs and other activities, we began to hear stories about agents and provocateurs. We began to hear that we were going to -- JJ: What kind of stories? What do you mean? WD: Well, there was evidence from the coast and other chapters who had been established before us that the police and the FBI were infiltrating, and they were trying to destabilize us. So, that kind of worked under my confidence to a certain degree because we couldn’t, at some point, be sure who was an agent and who was not an agent. So, in some cases, if there was someone from your community that joined when you joined and you knew their background, you could vouch for one another, but very soon, you had individuals who had no ties, and so they became suspect. So, the COINTELPRO worked on these kind of insecurities to undermine us. JJ: What do you mean? WD: Well, if [00:58:00] you allege that there’s a traitor in your ranks and you can’t identify him, then you become suspicious. Then there’s trust issues that you have with people who were not what they say they were or who appear not to be what they are. Then you have people who, in fact, later on, through depositions and other statements, identified themselves as government agents in court testimony. 33 �JJ: Okay, so now you have government agents, and then you also have this distrust going around. And that was part of the COINTELPRO? WD: It was all part of COINTELPRO. JJ: And did that do anything to the party? WD: It destabilized us to a great degree. We had, in my short time, and like I said, I joined in November; I separated in July of 1969 while Fred was in jail [00:59:00] pending appeal on the so-called ice cream conviction. JJ: And you separated why? WD: Well, at that time, there was a problem with leadership. There was a problem with direction and focus. Now, in hindsight, when the party opened in 1968, J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI already had a plan in the works on how to destroy the Black Panther Party. So, when we opened our doors, they were ready for us, and we had no idea who they were and what they were bringing. We were new Panthers, a new chapter. We didn’t have seasoned veterans from anyplace else. We were all local, developing the programs as we heard, developing our understanding of the party platform and the party programs. So, it’s not like getting somebody with experience battling the FBI. [01:00:00] We didn’t know what we were up against. And it so happened that the progression of COINTELPRO, progression of Hoover and company was that they were going to eradicate the Black Panther Party by any means necessary, and it all culminated in about 18 months. In 1969, when Fred Hampton was murdered, that was part of a nationwide sweep of the FBI to eliminate the Black Panther Party by eliminating leadership. Prior to that, the infiltrators, the provocateurs, particularly 34 �William O’Neal, who, you would be in the car with him, trying to go get newspapers or go handle some regular business, he said, “Well, you know, we ought to take out that store there. He’s a capitalist. We should just go in there and rob him, raise some money for the people.” Fortunately, he wasn’t driving, so the driver said, “We were told to do this and this, and we’re not stopping for that bullshit.” George Sams [01:01:00] was an instigator. JJ: Were you in the car when that happened? WD: I was not with O’Neal, but I heard directly from people who were with O’Neal who would do that stuff. JJ: So, he was already suspect. WD: Well, he possessed a certain form of madness, and so you just say, “Well, this is a crazy guy. We just know better.” JJ: There were some crazy guys in the movement. WD: A lot of people were crazy to be in the Black Panther Party. JJ: Because you had some street people in the (inaudible). WD: We had plenty of street people. JJ: So, some of them were panicked, talking crazy anyway, because we had them in the Young Lords (inaudible). WD: (laughs) I just don’t want to say that it was street people only, because here’s the thing. I might’ve been a college student, right? And the Black Panther Party was not unlike joining the Army, meaning that you’re thrown in there with a lot of different people from different walks of life. So, we began a rich mix between street, middle class, college, working class, [01:02:00] and in and amongst all 35 �that, you had to be a little crazy to go up against the United States government and demand your rights, but there was some people who were more foolish or more adventurous than others. JJ: “Adventurous” is the word. WD: And leadership would tell us to quash that adventurism, follow the party line, which is why we read Mao, because he offered his discipline and instruction. And I’m told that the Illinois Chapter was -- JJ: You’re saying you took them straight out of the -- WD: We took quotes from the Red Book, and we applied them as best we could. JJ: Military Writings? WD: Military Writings. The Military Writings was a separate document from the Red Book, also (inaudible). There’s a whole I don't know how many volumes of writings that Mao had, but we did use the Military Writings of Chairman Mao, and we used the Red Book as examples of how to be disciplined. The Black Panther Party had 26 rules to follow for membership, in addition [01:03:00] to the 10-point program and platform, no drugs, no alcohol, no theft from the people, just a whole litany of behaviors that we were supposed to follow to be a member, in addition to the 10-point program and platform, and again, the study and the discussions which made sure that people were not just hanging out. You had to be able to know the party line and express the party line. I came to the understanding that through my studies, the concepts of guerilla war, that any party member should be able to set up a chapter, set up the programs, politicize, propagandize, and carry the message forward. That was my understanding, so 36 �when I separated in July, then I took that concept with me every place else I went. And we found that there were many people [01:04:00] emulating the Black Panther Party who were not members, who had never joined but who were eager, or eager and willing to follow those guidelines, because at the time, we were known as the Vanguard Party. JJ: So, you’re doing all this studying, and you have the -- my question was, as you expand to other communities, and you’re also looking to raise some money in that. WD: The bigger concept of the Black Panther Party was that capitalism was a major issue, that capitalism, in addition to racism, perpetuated poverty in the Black community and that exploitation by the capitalists, exploitation by the businesses and industry was really a bigger issue that all people in the country had to deal with. So, I’m not sure where the concept [01:05:00] or why it was felt necessary to reach out beyond the Black community, but the notion that all poor people were being oppressed by the same government, by the same industry brough about the basis for the Rainbow Coalition because at some point, it was proven and shown and discovered that you had poor whites; you had poor Hispanics, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans; you had Native Americans, who were all being oppressed by the same government, and so at that point, it was only reasonable that a coalition among oppressed groups would be a stronger front against the government. And out of that, I think, is where the Rainbow Coalition happened. JJ: But now, these groups were already functioning as organizations. 37 �WD: My understanding was that the Young Patriots was already established. Young Lords Organization was an established group. JJ: But these were already established groups. WD: Right. [01:06:00] JJ: And so, they came together with the Panthers. WD: They came in coalition with the Panthers. JJ: Coalition, an alliance or a coalition. WD: Like an alliance, but -- JJ: Was it an organization, or was it an alliance? WD: It was more of a collaboration. It was more an alliance. We did have a mandate unspoken. When we would have white people try to join or participate in Black Panther Party, we would tell them to go to your neighborhoods, go to your communities, go to your parents, go to your families, and organize there, and fight racism in your community. JJ: And actually, that’s what the Young Lords also, the Young Patriots, we went into our community to organize our communities. In fact, that was like a mandate. WD: That was the methodology. JJ: I mean, is that what you’re saying? Because I’m not -- WD: Yeah. In order to defeat the bigger enemy, which was capitalism, and oppression of poor people, was to organize in your own communities. JJ: Because you would [01:07:00] naturally know the people better. WD: You know, the Black Panther Party, in each locale, was indigenous. We were products or our localities. We had specific issues in one region, different from 38 �another region. The Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party had branches in southern Illinois, in Rockford, and in each of those little locations, Peoria, Illinois, there were specific issues that had to be addressed by party members there. We had one chapter -JJ: But each neighborhood, each locale was different? WD: To a degree, right. JJ: To a degree. I mean, there was a general agreement with each locale, the same conditions in place, like Mao was saying. WD: Right, same conditions in place. So, we spoke to local needs with a bigger, with a global aspect. We were one of the first ones to think globally and act globally. [01:08:00] The Black Panther Party was one of the first organizations, national organization, that recognized what you would call today as multiculturalism, through Huey’s inter-communalism. We supported gays. We supported anybody who’s being oppressed by the government, by the capitalists. And again, we operated locally, but we thought nationally. JJ: Since many people are growing up in a city that’s segregated, was it easy to make this coalition, or were there some sticking points there? WD: Well, you know, when the boot is on your neck, you want the boot off. That was one of the things, and then Fred became a great orator and talked about these kind of concepts and said, “You want some relief,” and so if getting with the Panthers and getting with whoever is going to get this off you, then you would do that. [01:09:00] And so, by practice, we were able to explain and show people that racism, there was no place for that. It was used to divide people. And we 39 �showed them that we were willing to work with them even if they might not have been initially willing to work with us. We gave them tools to understand their circumstance. One of the points of the party program is that we want education that exposes the true nature of society and teaches us our true place in this society. Well, having going through Fanon, and we knew out history; we knew ourselves to be descendants of slaves, descendants of free people from Africa, and we were entitled to better. So, we understood our relationship with the government. We understood our relationship with industry, with business, whereas unfortunately white people probably felt that if they worked hard enough on the assembly line, they would become chairman of the board at some point. Well, we don’t know that that [01:10:00] really existed for them any more than it existed for us. And certainly in 1968, we didn’t have too many Black chairmans of the board. So, it became easier and easier to get other groups of people to understand the concept of economical pressure and focus on that as opposed to racial or social differences. JJ: But it was understood that people had to struggle against racism. In other words, it wasn’t, “We’re just going to come together and overcome; we should overcome.” WD: No. JJ: “We need to deal with certain issues here.” There is racism. WD: I guess what you call the dialectical approach. JJ: Am I putting words in your -- 40 �WD: No. There was (audio cuts out) racism exists. It’s still a debate today as to which element is more important, racism or economics. If everything else was equal economically, then you have your prejudices anyway. Now, [01:11:00] the big thing about racism is the ability to suppress, oppress, deny freedoms to another individual, based on the fact that you can identify him through a physical trait that he’s not in control of, which is race. We can’t do that to white people, so for Black people to be leery of white folks, to be suspicious of white people, to want to be free of their control is not racism. We just don’t have that power, and in any case that I can think of in history, we didn’t do that. But definitely, racism was to be overcome by all those people who were -- they were to deal with it. They were to cope with it and understand that it did exist. We didn’t eradicate racism through the Rainbow Coalition. JJ: Started running it down. What was the [01:12:00] main thing that you felt about the party in Illinois that had an impact, and where? What was the impact in terms of community? WD: One of the most dynamic factors of the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party was that we were young people who were knowledgeable, who were highly motivated. To a great extent, we were articulate. We were able to explain our position. We were able to debate the topics of the day and offer solutions and alternatives. Through the [structure?] of Black Panther Party, we were a network before “networking” was a phrase. You hear the quote that 43 chapters and 3 international sections meant that we had a reach. We had a national newspaper. [01:13:00] We just had a presence that was unlike any other organization at the 41 �time. And our goal was not self-serving. We weren’t trying to establish ourselves as the supreme power of Black people; we were tools. We were -- what’s the quote (inaudible)? We were oxen to be ridden by the people down the road to social revolution. JJ: The oxen for the people to ride. WD: We were here to serve the people, and that’s the way we functioned. JJ: Revolutionary is the oxen for the people to ride. WD: Revolutionaries are the oxen for the people to ride down the road to social revolution. JJ: Anything that you want to add that we haven’t discussed yet, any major points? [01:14:00] How was the effect of the murder of Fred on the (inaudible) party? How did that affect the party (inaudible)? WD: The Illinois Chapter was -- JJ: Did it keep running or -- WD: Illinois Chapter existed and functioned through 1976, I believe, which is seven years after the murder of Fred Hampton. As I was saying earlier, the FBI had already planned to destroy the Black Panther Party in total, all chapters. That was their mandate. That was a goal of theirs. JJ: So, you’re saying all chapters. Would that include the Patriots and the Young Lords? WD: It probably did. Well, through what I’ve read from COINTELPRO, those documents show clearly that they were trying to suppress [01:15:00] all groups that they deemed subversive. That included, in Chicago, we had the Red Squad, 42 �and they were going to block club meetings, church meetings, anything civil rights oriented. They did not want the Black community to organize, and so the Young Lords, anyone who was politically astute, anyone who was politically motivated who would run counter in Chicago to the Daley machine was going to be a target. And I’m certain the Young Lords were. Even SDS was an issue. And Hoover, the COINTELPRO comes out of the McCarthy era. COINTELPRO goes all the way back to 1920-something when they created the FBI. So, this issue of suppressing subversives or people who would [01:16:00] destabilize the government or be a threat to the government internally is longstanding. The Panthers didn’t invent that, but we were the focal point of it. We were like that perfect storm. We just kind of met them when they were developing where they are now. And again, like I was saying earlier, if we had no-fly zones, we couldn’t have gotten on airplanes, but we would’ve gone everywhere in cars. JJ: Do you recall Reverend Bruce Johnson and Eugenia Johnson, who were the pastors of the Young Lords Church? WD: I’m not familiar with them. JJ: Okay, because he was stabbed 17 times, and his wife 9 times, and this was only 30 days before Fred Hampton was murdered. WD: I wasn’t aware of that. JJ: And another reverend that was at that church that was transferred, that People’s Church, the Young Lords Church, was transferring to Los Angeles, was also murdered in that time. So, this was all during the same period. 43 �WD: Well, here. To the extent that [01:17:00] we have the testimony of William O'Neal explaining his activities and his intentions, even -- JJ: He went to Young the Lords Church, William O’Neal (inaudible). WD: See, well, my point is this, that the type of people that the US government recruits to do their work, proven out even in modern-day times, these people will do whatever they’re paid to do. So, you can get what we’ll call a hyper person who’s addicted to drugs to do all kinds of things to get his drugs. You know, William O’Neal was trying to become a member of the FBI, so they kept promising him that, and he thought in his own mind, he would become a member. But the FBI knew he was just a tool. So, he was willing to do anything he could to get into the FBI. The problem with agent provocateurs and instigators is that you don’t know how far they’ll go until maybe they’ll just turn out to be [01:18:00] assassins, and that’s the danger. You really can’t tell. This cop that was bending over Malcolm X infiltrated the Black Panther Party years later. We have agents of the US government who have infiltrated Black organizations over the years, and they keep using the same tactic again and again and again, infiltration, destabilization. So, again, the government had decided to end the Black Panther Party. JJ: Infiltration, destabilization, what do you mean destabilization? WD: Well, if you get a person in the organization who is a provocateur, who is a subversive agent inside the organization, they’re stealing money, if they’re disruptive, if they’re saboteurs. JJ: They’re instigating? 44 �WD: Yeah, they’re instigating. [01:19:00] They will destabilize as long as they keep some shit going. They’re disruptive, just in any number of things that they could do to keep you from doing party work and being responsible. JJ: So, they’re went on until 1976, the Panthers. WD: Yeah, the Illinois Chapter. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) and everything, they were going out? WD: Well, here’s an important thing about the party. They started as the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, became an international organization. I’ve learned from party members who were in Algiers that the international section in Algiers actually became the US Embassy because the United States government did not recognize the Algerian government after independence, so there were Americans on the ground in Algiers, much like you’ve explained to me that the Young Lords Organization was an organization for all Hispanics. They had Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Cubans. You spoke Spanish, you could have a place in the Young Lords because [01:20:00] nobody else offered a voice for that. So, as the Black Panther Party grew and developed over time, its tactics, its vision, its understanding of the world changed, and the programs changed, and the directives changed over time. As the government absorbed our activities, as the government established free breakfast programs, established health clinics in our communities, then it was no longer necessary for the Black Panther Party to have those same programs. Early, before Huey Newton went to jail, he had run for local government, so the party eventually got back to electoral politics, and in reality, there came a time when the party wasn’t necessary anymore. When they 45 �were far away from being an institution for self-defense, by trying to run as elected officials and create more programs to fill the gaps that the government or city founders had left open, [01:21:00] it just wasn’t the same organization anymore and should rightfully have just ceased to exist. JJ: But you had Bobby Seale running for mayor in Oakland at the time. So, you’re not saying that it should cease to exist because they got into electoral politics? WD: No. It’s just that the type of organization and the reason it was established, those conditions changed. Many times, people ask me, what would the Panthers do now? What would our focus be? What would our issues be? A lot of them are similar, but we would go at it a whole nother way. I think for Bobby Seale or any other party member to run for public office is a good thing because you want to have a person with that type of knowledge and background in a position to make decisions, to influence other politicians, to be present in the room at least to speak out against things. So, any situation, whether it’s a block [01:22:00] club or a church choir, it’s better to have a person with some consciousness in that room to help make those decisions, to help guide that group. JJ: And my understanding was that there was also an organizing tool or something, a campaign. WD: Certainly. Jesse Jackson, Sr. ran for president, and he got 600,000 votes. Well, that meant the 600,000 people believed in what he said. But he also indicated he had no intention of winning the election, but it allowed him to talk about issues that the other politicians weren’t going to bring up. That helps feed the public consciousness. That helps build awareness, which is also what we did by raising 46 �the contradictions between our reality and what the government said reality was. That was another tool of the Black Panther Party, to raise the contradictions between what is and what was. JJ: Ok, any final thoughts? WD: If I had to do it again, I would join the Black Panther Party. [01:23:00] There’s a lot that’s wrong with the world. Everybody can do something to make it better. Find out what you can do that, and make it a better place. END OF VIDEO FILE 47 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/26ba3eb92bd4eaa0a6d46d3721ef3fc7.mp4 48e1f2437f67b3827c83eea7b8dc36ef Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry William E. Dunbar vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Dunbar_William Title A name given to the resource William E. Dunbar video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dunbar, William Description An account of the resource Billy Dunbar is a member of the Chicago Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP). He is from the south side of Chicago. He keeps up with all the political events related to the BPP and the Rainbow Coalition, including the era of their origins. Mr. Dunbar is also a founding member of the Illinois BPP History Project, which is currently conducting oral histories to document the Chicago Chapter, so that the work of their members is not forgotten. Their project also wants the public to remember the impact that BPP Chairman Fred Hampton not only had on the African American community but on other communities of color and the poor. Mr. Dunbar is also a businessman. Today he owns a copy center.Chicago BPP Chairman Fred Hampton and BPP member Mark Clark were murdered in a predawn raid on December 4, 1969. Prior to his death, Mr. Hampton started a Rainbow Coalition, which was nurtured by Bobby Lee. The original members included the Young Patriots, a group of Hillbillies or southern whites from the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago of whom many had migrated from Appalachia and other southern areas, and the Young Lords from Lincoln Park. The Young Lords first met Fred Hampton at John Boelter’s and Ralph Rivera’s home and joined the Rainbow Coalition directly through Fred Hampton. Bobby Lee who was the BPP Field Marshall then began working more directly with José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2b3fa5f09b4156835828b8fe4bf5191a.pdf 34d2f51242594705edc97c3ebd441562 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Aaron Dixon Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/14/2013 Runtime: 01:17:46 Biography and Description Oral history of Aaron Dixon, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on March 14, 2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, �working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript AARON DIXON: Aaron Dixon. I was born January 2nd, 1949, Chicago, Illinois. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. (break in recording) JJ: Okay, could you give me your name, your date of birth and where you were born, Aaron? AD: Okay. All right. Give it to you again? JJ: Yeah, give it to me again. AD: Aaron Dixon. I was born January 2nd, 1949, in Chicago, Illinois. JJ: Okay. Where in Chicago, what part? AD: Oh, god, I used to know the hospital and -- damn, shit. JJ: Wait, was it North Side, South Side? AD: South Side. JJ: South Side, okay. AD: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Do how do you know about the Young Lords? AD: I know about the Young Lords from being in the Black Panther Party when the Black Panther Party [00:01:00] began to -- in Chicago particularly, they started the coalition with the Young Lords and the White community, which became the first Rainbow Coalition. But that was my first time that I heard about the Young Lords was during that time period in 1968. JJ: In ’68? AD: Yes. 1 �JJ: Okay. And so, was your family from Chicago? AD: Yeah, yeah, both my parents were from Chicago, and they grew up in Chicago and all my relatives were in Chicago. And when we left Chicago when I was about eight years old, I was mad at my parents for about five years because that’s where all my grandparents were, that’s where my cousins were, that’s where all my family was and I [00:02:00] really didn’t want to be taken away from them. But we, our family came back every year, every summer, just about every summer we came back to Chicago. JJ: And your family stayed when you moved? Did you move to Oakland, is that where you moved? AD: No, we moved to Seattle, Washington. JJ: Oh, Seattle (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). AD: And my father got a job offer from Boeing because he worked at Chanute Air Force Base in Champaign and actually we lived in Champaign for the first, you know, seven years of my life, we lived in Champaign. JJ: Illinois? AD: Champaign, Illinois, yes. And so, he got that job offer and then in 1958 -- and that’s when we moved to Seattle, Washington. JJ: What was the reasoning for that? AD: Well because my father got a job offer and, you know, he went to the -- he graduated from Chicago Art Institute, he was a artist. [00:03:00] But he had four kids and he couldn’t raise four kids being a artist, so he became a technical illustrator at Chanute and then he got this job offer in Seattle, and so he moved 2 �his family there. And also, I think a lot of the reason is because, you know, the gangs were pretty heavy even then, you know, the Blackstone Rangers, I remember when we -- driving through Chicago and seeing Blackstones everywhere, Blackstone Rangers and the Rangerettes. And both my cousins eventually joined the Blackstone Rangers. So, I think my father, you know, wanted a different type of life for us. He had three sons and a daughter, and I think he wanted to get us outta Chicago, so we wouldn’t be tempted by [00:04:00] joining the gangs. JJ: Yeah, how many brothers and sisters at -- whatever you wanna -- AD: Okay, yeah. JJ: And I don’t know if you wanna give some names or anything. It’s up to you whether... AD: Okay. Yeah, I had two brothers and one sister. I had a brother that was a year younger than me, Elmer, and then I had another brother named Michael was three years younger than I was. My sister, Joanne, was two years older than I was, she was the oldest of the kids. JJ: Okay. And so, you went -- about how old were you? AD: I was about eight years old -- JJ: About eight years old. AD: -- when we hit Seattle. JJ: Okay, and then you went to Seattle. How was that, how was life growing up there? 3 �AD: You know, it was different, it was different compared to Chicago and especially the topography, you know, they had mountains and lakes, and it was a really beautiful topography [00:05:00] area compared to flat Chicago. And we moved about three or four times before we finally got settled in, my parents were able to buy a house in Madrona, which was a Black neighborhood. In Seattle, all the minorities, the Chinese, Filipino, and Japanese, and the Blacks were all confined to one area, that was the Central area. So, we grew up -- I grew up with a lot of Chinese, a lot of Japanese, Filipinos, we all went to school together and that was really nice. JJ: So, what kinda memories have you got of the school? [00:06:00] You were in a diverse area or whatever. AD: Yeah. Well, I know when I first got there, when I was in the fourth grade -- third grade then the fourth grade and fifth grade, I just remember fighting a lot, I just remember there was always fights, you know, and after school, there was always a fight. And I remember, you know, getting in my share of fights and all the way up into junior high school. And there was a neighborhood gang and I was part of that neighborhood gang and, you know... JJ: What was the name of the gang? AD: It was called The [Inkwells?]. JJ: Inkwells, (inaudible). AD: Yeah. And everybody had a knife, everybody had switchblades and push-button knives. I had about three knives. And then -- JJ: They were not a drug gang or (inaudible)? 4 �AD: No, it wasn’t a drug gang, it was just a bunch of young people. JJ: Just a neighborhood, neighborhood... AD: Just a neighborhood gang, yeah. JJ: And so, who did you fight? [00:07:00] AD: Everybody (laughs) (coughs) (inaudible) everybody. There was always a fight. We lived across the street from a park, and so at the park, that’s where everybody gathered and hung out, we played football, basketball, baseball. And so, you know, I played a lot of baseball, a lot of football and basketball, ping pong, eventually started playing tennis. And, you know, there was always fights that were breaking out, you know, that’s just the way it was back then. But it was always one on one, and it was never -- we all lived in the same neighborhood, so we weren’t trying to kill each other, we were just letting our anger out, you know, by fighting. And when I got into the eighth grade, they started a voluntary bussing program, you know, so an integration program and -- so this was a [00:08:00] chance for me, I decided to volunteer. ’Cause actually I got tired of fighting, I got tired of fighting, so I volunteered to go to school to an all-White neighborhood. And there was only one other Black student there. And I played on the football team. Then the following year, I went to a all-White high school, and that’s when I first really ran into racism, you know? The teachers gave me bad grades not because I didn’t do the work, because they just felt that that’s what I deserved. And there was a game -- JJ: So, the teachers were racist. AD: Yeah, the teachers were racist. 5 �JJ: Were being racist. AD: Teachers were racist, most of the students were racists. And I was on the football team and -- JJ: Okay, they gave you bad grades, what else [00:09:00] did you see, the racism, what kind of racism? AD: I broke my wrist playing football, I sprung it, I sprung it real bad and I was in a typing class and I couldn’t type because my wrist was damaged. But the teacher gave me a failing grade anyway. But the incident that really kind of decided that I needed to get back to the community, there was a basketball game between the main Black high school, Garfield High School and the Queen Anne School that I was going to, which was all White and there was this rivalry. And this is something that happened a lot back then was whenever there were sports events, Black athletes were always cheated in some way or another. And this was something we saw over and over and over again. But this particular game, they were playing for the championship. Garfield High School was a Black school was ahead by three points and then there was this mystery foul that [00:10:00] occurred, and the ball went to the White team, and they scored four points and they won the game by one point. It was obvious to everybody that it was -- you know, they had cheated, they had stolen the game. And so, the Black kids after the game, for the first time, they just erupted and they just went after the White kids and just, you know, a lot of White kids got beat up, some were chasing to other people’s houses. So, when I went to school the next day, the White kids looked at me like I had shit on my back, and they wouldn’t talk to me, 6 �they were calling me niggers and it was bad. And so that’s when I decided that that was my last year at the school, and then I went back to Garfield High School when I was a junior. And Garfield High School was -- so, that’s where Qunicy Jones went to [00:11:00] school, that’s where Jimi Hendrix went to school, Bruce Lee was always up there a lot ’cause there’s a lot of Asian kids up there. And it was really a -- it was a great place to be because if they -JJ: (overlapping dialogue, inaudible) was the real Bruce Lee then, that’s (overlapping dialogue, inaudible). AD: Oh, there was a Bruce Lee, yeah, there was a real Bruce Lee. But it was a great place because there was Chinese students, there was Black students, Filipinos, there were Blacks and there were White students and we all got along, you know, and it was just, it was a great place to be, it was a great school, and I had a great experience. When I was a senior, the counselor called me in, this Black woman and told me that I wasn’t gonna graduate ’cause I was skipping school a lot and doing a lot of different things. So, she told me I wasn’t college material and when she [00:12:00] told me that, it made me real mad, because my parents were always telling us that we’re gonna go to college. So, I decided to buckle down and I graduated barely, you know with two-point grade average with all the credits I needed. I continued to play sports. And then when I graduated, I actually started doing some acting, I got into some drama. There was this nonprofit that was doing skits about stereotypes, about racial stereotypes and I really got into it. And after we finished with that, I started getting into some other -- doing other theater work and also started writing a lot of poetry. And the Urban 7 �League started a program to help Black students get into the University of Washington. So, I got in that program and I found myself at the University [00:13:00] of Washington. There was only 30 Black students out there at the time. JJ: And Seattle has a large Black population (inaudible)? AD: Not a large one, but in 1968, Seattle had the largest Black home ownership per capita in the country. And so, you know, we all lived in the same neighborhood, but the neighborhood we lived in was in prime property, you know, on hills overlooking the lakes. But, you know, there was always racial things that were going on like Eddie Lincoln who got shot by an off-duty policeman and the police got off. And the Black woman who got raped by police officers and it was never anything done about it. And, you know, my father coming home from work, and the first [00:14:00] thing he would do is he’d have to have a drink because he was dealing with so much racism on his job out at Boeing. And my father was -he was the type of person that he didn’t take no shit from people, you know? And so, I remember when I was 13 years old saying that I wanted to join the police department, I was gonna be a policeman. My father, both my parents got very angry and said I wasn’t gonna join the police department. And I remember being 16 saying I was going to join the Marines and go to Vietnam. My father said, “No, ain’t no son of mine going to Vietnam, ’cause those people will call you a nigger.” So, my parents are very political. My father had joined the Communist Party when he came back from World War II ’cause he saw a lot of atrocities and he did a lot of stuff with Paul Robeson. And so, we were raised [00:15:00] pretty 8 �much in a very political environment. And when I was 13, I found myself marching with Martin Luther King and then I started getting involved in civil rights demonstrations in Seattle at a very young age. That’s one of the reasons why I kinda volunteered for the volunteer bussing program ’cause I felt like, “Okay, maybe this is what we should be doing, integrating.” And so, I got into the University of Washington, I started... JJ: The integrating came from the civil rights (overlapping dialogue, inaudible)? AD: Yeah, yeah. So, by that time I was doing a lot of writing, writing a lot of poetry and doing a lot of poetry readings in the Watts Writers Workshop which was a group of famous Black poets and out of LA. They used [00:16:00] to come to Seattle all the time, University of Washington. I was the only local poet that they asked to read with them. And I had also -- I had gotten a creative writing scholarship too from the Links Foundation. So, I started toying with the idea that I was going to be a playwright, I was gonna go to New York and become a famous playwright. I went to LaLa Leroy Jones’ place and that’s what I kinda had my mind set on at the time. But anyway, the BSU started doing a lot of work in the community and a lot of stuff on campus. And I remember when I was 17, 16 maybe, I had been out playing tennis ’cause I was -- we played a lot of tennis ’cause they had a tennis court. I was training myself to be the next Arthur Ashe I thought. And I came in the [00:17:00] house to eat dinner and I walked by the TV and I saw these Black men with guns demonstrating, protesting some gun laws in California, and they were the Black Panthers. I just remember thinking, “Wow, you know, wow, look at the -- never saw a Black man carrying a gun before on 9 �TV,” had these uniforms on. So, you know, I didn’t think much of it at that time, but we had -- the BSU decided to close down this high school, and we closed the high school down, we took the building over and then a week later we were -- I was arrested along with a couple of other people and charged with unlawful assembly. And while we were in jail, Martin Luther King was assassinated. And [00:18:00] so, it was very frustrating to not be out on the streets when that happened because all across the country, riots were breaking out all over America and we wanted to be out there too. So, when we finally got out of jail a couple of days later, there was a Black student union conference in San Francisco. So, we all got -- we got a bunch of cars and we, about 20 of us drove down there. And while we were down there, we heard that there was a funeral for this Panther named Little Bobby Hutton, that he had gotten killed in the shootout on the same day that Martin Luther King had got killed. And so, we decided to go over to the funeral. We went and bought some berets, so we’d fit in. And we drove on over there and went into this funeral and it was a very emotional and Little Bobby Hutton’s mother wailing and [00:19:00], the aunts were wailing, and we saw these Panthers standing on both sides of the walls looking really serious. And we walked the procession and looked at Little Bobby Hutton in the casket and we went back to San Franciso State. JJ: So, there were Panthers and then there was also his family was there? AD: Yeah, his family was there. Marlon Brando was there as well. JJ: Walking? AD: He was standing in front -- 10 �JJ: In front of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? AD: -- of the building with Bobby Seale with his black leather jacket on and black beret. And so, Bobby Seale was gonna be giving the keynote address at this conference. So, we went back to wait for him and we waited, we waited for like a hour and hours. And finally, the doors flew open and here comes Bobby Seale along with Kathleen Cleaver and along with about four or five other Panthers, Warren Wells who had been wounded in the shootout. So, Bobby Seale gave the [00:20:00] address, the keynote address and he was very emotional because Litle Bobby Hutton was the first Panther to join, he was a good friend of Bobby’s. Not only was Little Bobby Hutton killed, but also Eldrige Cleaver had been wounded and was in jail. Eighteen other Panthers were also arrested including David Hilliard. So, a large chunk of the membership of the Black Panther Party at that time was now in jail. So, Bobby Seale gave one of the most powerfully emotional speeches that I had ever heard. And during the speech, he stopped and said, “We’re gonna stay here all night. Anybody got anything to drink?” And I had bought my parents a big bottle of vodka ’cause it was cheaper in the Bay Area, and you could buy it at the store. In Seattle, you had to buy it at the liquor store. So, I bought this for my parents and I said, “Yeah, I got some.” And I ran and [00:21:00] got it and gave it Bobby and he took a swig, and he passed it around and some of the comrades took a swig and he really got animated then, he really got animated and he just -- he was just really portraying a lot of different things. It was really -- I wish that had have been taped ’cause it was very powerful. But when he finished, I made a beeline to where he was, my brother 11 �and Anthony Ware another brother we worked with, we all three of us converged on Bobby Seale and told him we wanted a chapter of the Black Panther Party in Seattle. So a week later, he came to Seattle along with George Murray, the Minister of Education and another Panther, Bill Jennings from San Diego. He stayed at my parents’ house for three days and there were about 20 other people from [00:22:00] the community that we had been working with and organizing with, students and non-students and we met with Bobby Seale and George Murray for over a three-day period and he told us what we needed to do to be members of the Black Panther Party. And then he asked me, he said he was going back east to open up more chapters and he asked me to go with him. But first of all, towards the end of the meeting, he said, “Who’s gonna be the captain?” And for some reason everybody pointed to me, everybody -- and I said this in the book, but I felt like I had been tricked into becoming the captain because I didn’t really raise my hand and say I wanted to be the captain. I was only 19 years old, there was plenty of guys there who were older than me. But anyway, I was named as the captain and Bobby asked me to go back to New York with him [00:23:00] and I told him that I wasn’t ready to go and I always kind of regretted that, but I didn’t feel like I was really ready to go ’cause it was changing, it was happening so fast, I wasn’t really ready to make that change. So, a week later, I got called and told to come to Oakland and I went down to Oakland, my first time ever flying. And when I got there, I was met at the airport by Robert Bay and Tommy Jones, they took me to the office on Grove Street and they took me around the corner where Robert Bay lived, they introduced me to 12 �Landon and Randy Williams. And there was a lot of things that transpired on that trip, I don’t know if you want me to go into all that. JJ: No, no, that’s fine, as long as (inaudible). AD: Okay. So, I remember the first thing I had to do was go see Huey in Alameda County Jail, that’s [00:24:00] one of the first things I had to do, I had to go out in the field and sell papers to some of the comrades. But when I went to Landon and Randy Williams’ house and Robert Bay’s house, the first thing they did was show me their armament, each one had their own stock of weapons, and they started showing me all their weapons and everything and they’re reloading equipment. So, a couple of days later, they introduced me to the Panther Drink, which in the street was called Bitter Dog, in the party was called Panther Piss, dark port wine and lemon juice, and they turned me onto some Brother Roogie, which is marijuana. And I remember, we were in the kitchen talking and Landon Williams was in the front room ’cause he didn’t smoke or drink. And we heard a large bang, a loud bam, we ran in there and Landon was sitting there with a .44 Magnum in his hand, he had [00:25:00] shot his TV out. He shot it out because he said, “Man, I got tired of watching the cowboys kill the Indians.” JJ: No. AD: So, he just shot his TV out. So later on that day, we... JJ: Did it have something to do with the wine or no? AD: No, ’cause he didn’t drink, he didn’t drink or smoke, you know, he didn’t get high, Landon did not get high. So, later on that night -- well, earlier in the day, Tommy Jones had asked me if I had a piece. I said, “Yeah, I gotta carbine.” He said, 13 �“No, I mean a handgun.” I said, “No.” So, he went out and got me a ninemillimeter llama with a holster on it and he gave it to me. So, I had put it on. And so, we decided to go down to West Oakland to get something to eat down on Seventh Street and there was another brother that was with us, Oleander Harrison, he had joined the party when he was 15 and 16 and he went to Sacramento [00:26:00], he’s in those films [of them being?], and so he’s got a cigar, a little stubby cigar in his mouth and a shotgun in his hand. JJ: So, what year was this (overlapping conversation; inaudible)? AD: This was ’68. JJ: So, ’68 -- AD: April of ’68. JJ: -- was up here when the Panthers were talking about weapons and that (inaudible). AD: Yeah, this is April, ’68. JJ: And where everybody was. AD: So, we went and got something to eat and me and Oleander went outside and we started smoking a cigarette and this was maybe two weeks after Little Bobby Hutton had been killed, so there was a lot of tension -- JJ: (overlapping conversation; inaudible) AD: -- between the party and the police. And so a police car drove up, Oleander being young, he started yelling, “Pig, you motherfuckin’ pig, you better stop at that stop sign.” So, I joined in, I just started yelling too, we’re yelling all kind of profanities. Pig goes around, comes around the corner, he calls for backup, and 14 �10, 15 [00:27:00] cars start showing up. And Robert Bay comes out and Landon and Randy and Tommy come out and all of a sudden, people are running, people are running home, people are saying, “Oh man, we gotta get outta here, there’s gonna be a shootout.” Shops are closing, the restaurants is closing. And within five minutes, the street is empty except for us and the police. The prostitutes were the only ones there, they said, “We ain’t goin’ nowhere, we’re gonna stay out here and help our brothers.” And so, then all the police were bunched up together and Robert Bay says, “Spread out,” he says, “Spread out.” So, we all spread out. And then there was a lieutenant that was in front of the police officers and he starts walking towards Landon and Landon -- at first I see this young brother with the McClymonds’ leather jacket on, he’s gotta bag of groceries in his hand, you know, and I’m, you I’m just -- all this stuff is happening so fast, I was just in college, I was just doing my homework, now I’m down [00:28:00] in West Oakland with a leather jacket on and gun on and getting ready to get killed. I see this young brother and I say to myself, I’m telling myself, “I wish this brother would stay and help.” And he looks me in the eyes and he says, “Man, I would stay and help, but I gotta get home.” And he’s gone. So, now things are real tense and I’m just feel like, “Okay, this is -- I’m not gonna go back to Seattle, I’m gonna die right here on this street.” And so, everybody’s got their hands on their guns, police got their hands on our guns -- on their gun, we have our hands on our guns. And this police officer, this lieutenant who was much more harder than the other ones, it appeared to be, he starts walking towards Landon and he says, “I’m gonna check you.” He’s got his hand on his 15 �gun. And Landon is backing up saying, “No, you’re not gonna check me.” And he keeps walking towards [00:29:00] Landon, Landon keeps backing up, they keep saying, “No, you’re not gonna check me.” And Landon slips on this garbage can top, it bounces right back up, but the garbage can top reverberates and it breaks the ice because the next thing that happened is the police stopped, they turned around and they got in their cars and they didn’t say a word and they drove off. So, that was my baptism into the Black Panther Party. The very next day, they had the meeting at Saint Augustine’s where Panthers came from all over the Bay Area to meet, must have been about 125, 130 comrades there from Palo Alto, San Francisco, Vallejo, Richmond, everywhere. And so, I get introduced and I’m just treated like a long lost cousin or something, you know? So anyway, the meeting ends and me, Robert [00:30:00] and Tommy Jones, we get in the car, we head back to the house. When we get to the house, the phone rings, Robert Bay grabs the phone and says, “Yeah.” And he slams the phone down, he runs into his bedroom, he grabs two rifles, and he hands me one of them and a box of ammo and we jump in the car. He said, “The pigs are vamping on the comrades at the church.” So, we’re speeding down Grove Street and he asked me, he said, “Dixon, you know how to load that weapon?” And I’ve never seen it before, it was a .44 magnum, but I told him, “Yeah,” and I figured out how to load it. And so, by the time we get down to the church, there’s nothing, there’s nobody there. And so, of course I’m relieved that nobody was there. And so those were my -- that was my baptism into the Black Panther Party. And a couple of days later, I was on my way back to Seattle. 16 �JJ: So, you go to Seattle and what kind of work were you doing, [00:31:00] what kind of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? AD: Well, we started looking for a place for the office and we find a place, the man won’t rent it to us, he’s a realtor, he has real estate offices next door, and he’s got this other office that’s empty and he won’t rent it to us. So, we said, “Okay.” So, the next night, his office is firebombed, and so we go back to him and he rents it to us. So, we opened our office up, get our phones turned on. And at that time, it was not illegal to carry weapons out in the open in Seattle. So, we’re carrying our weapons, everybody’s got their rifles and shotguns. So, we get the phones turned on and we start getting [00:32:00] calls from the community for all kinds of things, police brutality, rental issues, domestic problems and we start going out on these calls. And this one woman who had seven kids, the landlord had taken the door off her house because she didn’t pay the rent. So, we sent some Panthers to the landlord’s house, they got the door from the landlord, they carried it down the street and put it back on the hinges. And we got calls from women saying their boyfriend was beating ’em up, or the husband was beating ’em up. We sent five or six of our Panthers to the house and they straightened that out. And it was amazing because this was the first time the community had somebody that they could call, that they knew [00:33:00] was gonna take care of their business, and they didn’t have to call the police. But they started really taking advantage of it as they can often do in the community. And I remember, I was sending weekly reports down to Bobby Seale and talking to him over the phone and he told me, he said, “Dixon, you guys are going out on too many 17 �community calls, you gotta cut it down,” so we did. About a month later, we get a call -- maybe three weeks later, we get a call from this woman who said that her son who was going to an all-White high school got beaten up and that nobody at the school would do anything about it. So, I told her, you know, “Well, I’m sorry, we can’t come out there,” because Bobby Seale had mentioned to me that we need to cut -- stop going on all these calls. But she called back on Tuesday with the same problem, she called back Wednesday, same problem, called back on Thursday, same -- I just told her, “No, [00:34:00] I’m sorry, we can’t come.” She called back on Friday though and she was crying, she said the White kids had brought chains and bricks to school and they were beating up the Black students, nobody would do anything about it. And we got a couple of more calls from some Black mothers who said the same thing. So, it just so happened that there were about 12 or 13 Panthers in the office with rifles and shotguns and we decided, “Okay, it’s time to go on out there.” So, we drove out there, when we got out there, there were about 25 policemen out there, they were on the side of the building. By this time, you know, we didn’t care who was out there, it coulda been a army out there, but we were gonna go do what we had to do. And we crossed the street, there was fat sergeant who met us at the door, he said, “Dixon, you can’t take those loaded weapons in.” And we knew the gun laws, the gun law states that if you are carrying a weapon and a bullet is not in the chamber, then it’s considered unloaded. So, I told him, “It’s unloaded.” So, we went in [00:35:00] the school. Principal saw us, he took off running, comrades went and got him, we brought him back down and sat him down, we told him, if 18 �didn’t start protecting these kids that we were gonna protect them. And he promised us that from now on, he would protect them. So, we walked out of the school and we backed away across the street because when I went to see Huey, he said, “Never turn your back to the pigs ’cause they’re nothin’ but a bunch of back shooters.” So, we backed away across the street, we didn’t turn out backs to the pigs, we got in our cars, drove back to the Central area. The police followed us, and they were gonna try to indict us, but they couldn’t because we didn’t do anything illegal. It wasn’t illegal to carry weapons even into the school. Of course, eventually they did pass a law to make it illegal. And eventually they did pass a law to make it illegal for us to carry our guns. But that was the [00:36:00] defining moment in the Seattle chapter of the BPP. JJ: So those were some of the things that -- did you do a breakfast program too or -- AD: Yeah, then and by 1969, we got orders to start free breakfast programs, and we opened up our first breakfast program and then we began to open up more. And there were some people who didn’t see it as revolutionary, and they left the party. Then I got called down to Oakland in ’69 and while I was down there, I was down there for about two months, Bobby Seale gets arrested, or not arrested, but he actually got kidnapped. [00:37:00] And so then I was told to go back to Seattle to organize and help free the Chairman. So I go back to Seattle, we moved out of our office, and we opened up the community center because we had orders to move outta the store fronts and move into houses in the community ’cause the party was getting raided all across the country. JJ: And what year was this? 19 �AD: This was ’69. JJ: Sixty-nine (inaudible)? AD: Yeah. JJ: So, you opened up a service center, what was the difference between that and the office? AD: The community center was more accessible to people in the community, and we could do more things, we had more room. JJ: (inaudible) AD: And we opened up a free medical clinic as well, we opened up a free medical clinic. This Black guy from the Justice Department called and said he wanted to meet with my brother and I. [00:38:00] We didn’t wanna meet with him, but he said it was a matter of life and death. So, we did go finally meet with him, and he told us that the police were gonna raid our office and kill us. And so, we started fortifying our office and, you know, we heavily sandbagged our office, steel and everything. I mean, I could go on all night Cha-Cha. (laughs) I could go on, but -- JJ: Okay. Did you wanna (inaudible) now or -- AD: I mean, if you wanna jump ahead or something? JJ: Oh no, I wanted to -- well, I also want to talk more about the organizing, if you can -- AD: Okay. JJ: I mean, you can go ahead and then come (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 20 �AD: Yeah, so anyway, we had a free medical clinic, and we opened up a legal aid program, and through our medical clinic, we did sickle cell anemia testing, we did mass sickle cell anemia testing and [00:39:00] we started a free legal aid program, free food program, liberation schools, and that was our main thing that we did. (break in audio) LINDA TURNER: -- this little suburban Evanston girl. F1: There you go. LT: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) suburban what? LT: No. So, when are you starting? You gotta say, “Go,” or -- JJ: Okay. (break in audio) JJ: Okay Linda, if you wanna give me your name and maybe age and where you born and that. LT: My name is Linda Turner. I was born in 1941. You do the math. And I became an activist in 1965. I remember precisely because it turned out to be a very momentous moment (laughs) for a lot of northern people to get involved in the Civil Rights Movement that was going on down South. And that weas the first nationwide showing of the film, Judgment at Nuremberg. And when it ended and if you know the movie, it’s about the trial of Nazis who were responsible for exterminating millions of people in Germany, Austria, around, not only Jews, but gypsies and communists and political enemies and gay people, lots of folks. And 21 �at the end, you’re left with the message that if you care about people, you can’t just sit back and let it happen, you have to be like the few good Germans and do something about it. Right after the movie ends, on comes the news, and what’s on the news but Alabama state troopers clubbing demonstrators on the Pettus Bridge in, is it Alabama, was it -- now I’ve forgotten. Selma, they were on their way to Selma, Alabama. And that was my signal, I immediately connected, [00:41:00] if I feel upset about people sitting by and not doing anything about injustices to someone, I had to get involved in this. So, next morning I joined CORE and within a week we were at McCormick Place at the boat show that they -- the tourism show they held every year. And I think this was the old one before that one -- I think it’s the one that burned down eventually. And we chained ourselves in a circle in front of the Alabama booth with the state troopers standing there. We ran chain link through our coats, so you didn’t see the chain until we got there and padlocked ourselves. So the front page of The Tribune the next day was, “Cops carrying out --” ’cause we went limp -- carrying out these demonstrators, you know, like sacks from McCormick Place and we were jailed, got out the next day, we went back, did it again. No security there, they let us back in, we did it again. [00:42:00] And I remember the story because that night I ate Chinese food and got a fortune in my fortune cookie that said, “You feel refreshed after a relaxing weekend and ready to tackle the world.” So, my feeling was, I was active in CORE for a long time, from there it kept growing, the antiwar movement, from the Civil Rights Movement to the anti-war movement just 22 �like Dr. King and start making the connections between them. And I think once you’re an activist it’s hard to stop being one, you’re always -JJ: What kind of work did you do in CORE? LT: Oh, I did in the ’80s -- oh well, ’70s, I went to Cuba, I’ve been to Cuba five times. So, when they make a big fuss about Beyoncé and Jay-Z going to Cuba, anybody can really go to Cuba now, you can say, “I want to investigate the arts and culture of Cuba,” you can go. But I wish they would stop the blockade already. I’ve been involved in [00:43:00] various ways of trying to end the blockade against Cuba for all these years. I was part of the Chicago Cuba Committee, which did work on that, it was an educational organization. I went on the second Venceremos Brigade, there were 700 of us. We cut sugar cane and I still have a picture of Fidel with his machete talking in this big circle of people and that was the brigade that I was on. We left just after Fred Hampton had been murdered, December of ’69 and we returned after cutting sugar cane and touring the island just before May Day of 1970. And when we returned, we were confronted with the fact of Manuel Ramos’ death. I don’t remember all the details, he was killed and a gigantic May Day march, somewhere in my files of memorabilia, I have pictures of it, you know, with banners [00:44:00] and everything. It was really beautiful and we felt like we were -- that was a connection between the struggle of the Cuban people, the Puerta Rican people and all the press people in Chicago, everywhere. It was very moving. I went on to at that time a storefront community organization called The People’s Information Center opened and I became a part of that along with several other 23 �friends. And we did programs that other participants in the Rainbow Coalition did, the Young Lords also, breakfast for children program, worked on a free people’s health clinic, just all kinds of good things in the community. JJ: Where was it located? LT: Oh, this was in Lincoln Park, right on Holsted Street. On one side of us we had the People’s Law Office, which is a whole other story [00:45:00] and a few doors down, we had the Women’s Liberation’s -- Chicago Women’s Liberation Union Office. So, it was a very progressive block. And in fact, after urban renewal cleared the land between I think Dickens and Armitage, there was a People’s Park built and I remember specifically a 26th of July celebration where we roasted a pig. I won’t describe how the pig was attired. And it just went on, I came into an organization of activists that did a lot of work against U.S. intervention in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala for many years called the U.S. Anti-Imperialist -- it was after -- there was initially many years ago an AntiImperialist League and that’s what it was named after. But we did a lot of film showings and sponsoring speakers, educating people. There were lots of demonstrations [00:46:00] at consulates, there was always something going on. I’m trying to follow this chronologically because for -- what else did I do during those years? I’ll probably remember later. I’m 71 years old, so you gotta cut me some slack, you know, every detail won’t be there in the right order. But about 12 years ago, I had to move to Las Vegas, actually I live in Henderson because my mother who at the time was almost 96 could no longer live alone. So, she moved from Florida and I moved from Chicago leaving my daughter and my little 24 �grandbaby behind and stayed with my mother. And she lived another five years, ’cause she finally had her family around her. My brother lived there already, so for the first time in many years, my brother and I and my mother were all together in the same [00:47:00] neighborhood. So, it was a very good five years for her, she almost made it 101. And now I find so many of my friends are taking care of their mothers, it’s usually the mothers. So, that’s another link I have with friends is the experience of the reversal of the mother becomes the daughter and the daughter becomes the mother. Anyway. And so that’s where I am now, I come to Chicago every year for a week to see my friends and family. But my skin has got -- my blood has gotten too thin to live here all year round especially in the winter, so that’s why I am where I am. And there, I work -- whenever MoveOn has a demonstration, whether it’s against gun violence or whatever legislation is coming up, I work on campaigns, work with OFA which has been -- had many incarnations [00:48:00], Obama for America, Organizing for America, now it’s Organizing for Action. So, I just keep doing that because I feel that if I stop doing that, I lose my connection with the world and it’s good exercise. Walking a picket line never hurt anybody, if you can put one leg in front of the other, so. JJ: So, you came from CORE -- LT: Yeah. JJ: -- in ’60 -- LT: Right, I joined CORE the next morning, it was headed by James Forman at the time. JJ: Was that located in Chicago? 25 �LT: In Chicago, yes. JJ: Okay. LT: And for a time, I was secretary of the organization and then there was North Side CORE, West Side, South Side, they had various branches. JJ: But I don’t understand, what was the difference between them and some of the other Civil Rights groups? LT: Well, Congress on Racial Equality, didn’t limit itself to students, it was for all ages, it was very integrated. [00:49:00] But there came a time, it was after the Black Power Movement when there was pressure for White people to especially step down from leadership positions, that it was time for Black people to lead their struggle and I had no problem with that, so I did. Other people took office, but it didn’t mean that we weren’t supportive White people who were no longer officers or whatever in CORE. I liked the organization, and I liked James Forman, and it was very active at the time. JJ: What was he like in -- LT: Well, I only met James Forman once very briefly. There’s actually a movie -- I should press my brain and try to remember, that talks about his youth. Denzel Washington played a union organizer in it, The Young Debaters. If you ever get a chance to see it, it’s great because there’s a kid there who’s the son of a minister who grows up to -- who was James Forman. And this kinda shows you [00:50:00] his introduction to things like the Labor Movement and debating. He was a very articulate and powerful speaker, and he was part of the Black 26 �Colleges debate team that ended up beating the Ivy League schools and winning a championship in debating. It’s a very good skill to have. JJ: You mentioned Manual Ramos and then you mentioned Fred Hampton. What do you recall of Fred Hampton? LT: Oh, because I knew him, I mean, I think it wasn’t even weeks -- not even a week before his death that I was the one that took a flyer that we had designed -- there had been an attack by the Chicago Police on the apartment that -- it wasn’t Fred Hampton’s apartment, it was an office or something and -- don’t make me [lose that train of thought?]. [00:51:00] And so there was a big rally planned on behalf of the people who had been injured and jailed from that raid, not the one that killed Fred. So, we designed a flyer to be passing out to mobilize people. JJ: The information center? LT: This is before the internet. JJ: The information center? LT: Yeah. Well, yes, it was and I took it over to the office on Madison and showed it to Fred and he’s the one who changed the location. It was gonna be a different location, I don’t remember which, but it ended up being at the church on Ashland where they had many events and a few minor little changes and took it back -- JJ: On Ashland and Madison? LT: Well, there was a church on Ashland near Adams I believe. It wasn’t far from the electric workers’ union hall, there was a trip there and that’s where the rally was scheduled to happen. So, went back, [00:52:00] made the changes, went to -this is maybe a day later, went to the printing press, Omega Press, progressive 27 �printers in Hyde Park and I spent the night waiting for the flyer to be done. And in the morning, about six in the morning, I got a phone call from [Sue Jan?] telling me what had happened, Chairman Fred had been murdered. So, needless to say, everything but the heading, the header came off, all the illustration, everything else stayed the same, the place, the time, and it was reprinted, and I waited for it and brought it back north. And yes, I remember that. JJ: How did that impact you and some of the other organizers? LT: Well, we were just to leave for Cuba and I remember one of the things that people decided that the brigadistas would do because we did various community service kinds of things in training before we left together, [00:53:00] was to stand guard, to stand witness at the Panther office on Madison. So, we’d stand up and down the stairways in case there was an attack or something, here’d be all these people standing there waiting, watching, you know. I remember that. And I knew a lot of the Panthers because I was one of the people like many of us at the Information Center who sold the Black Panther paper all the time, so I would be the one who would drive my little Toyota over there and would load it -- John Preston would load up the car with Panther papers, take ’em back north and sell ’em at L stops and everywhere. Good paper. And then as I say, between the -there was a Young Patriots organization, later there was Rising Up Angry, there was the [00:54:00] Panther Party, there was the Young Lords, People’s Information, all these groups that really showed an example of the Rainbow Coalition by our skin and by our politics, the solidarity among the peoples in the community and that was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 28 �JJ: How would you describe that, I mean -- LT: Well, I mean, because you could see organizations and individuals working together toward common goals, especially for White people following leadership of Third World people, or Black people, Puerto Rican, Mexican, whatever, Brown people, Black people that we followed their example. The Panther Party started the breakfast for children programs, the Serve the People Programs, STP. So, that I thin in itself sent a message in terms of leadership not being, you know, for people like me, formerly White suburban [00:55:00] kids at one time to come in and feel that somehow we could run it. And no, we couldn’t because we didn’t have that contact with the community, that understanding of what needed to be done. So, it was a great learning experience for a lot of people to work with the Panthers, the Young Lords no matter what it was about. JJ: You said contact with the community, what do you mean? LT: Well, like even in Lincoln Park, there were a lot of Puerta Rican people in Lincoln Park, the place where I lived was pretty White, it was like a merging of, you know, what they call the base now, a political base that that became everyone’s base, all the progressive factors in a community. So, I just thought it was important for people to see that when the politics are right, it can pull [00:56:00] people together to work together to accomplish good things. JJ: Geographically, what would be the base? LT: Well, when I talk about Lincoln Park, I talk about that area between -- because it had, oh I’d say between Armitage and Belden even, in terms of where people were located. Because the Young Lords Church was on Dayton and Armitage, 29 �the People’s Information Center, People’s Law Office, the Women’s Union were all on Halstead between them. So, those were some basic organizations, people lived in lots of places, you know. JJ: What were some of the demonstrations that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? LT: Well, I remember when, wasn’t it the Young Lords who helped take over McCormick Seminary, we were there too. And it was saying a lot in terms of what McCormick Seminary should give back to the community. [00:57:00] It got a lot of media coverage, and in fact, in the end McCormick Seminary did acquiesce to do -- I can’t remember exactly, but I know that in some way that sitin, that occupation was successful in that did rest some power from that institution in the community. JJ: Were you inside or not? LT: Well, I had been in -- I didn’t occupy, no, I didn’t live in there. The occupy came later, I was part of occupy in Las Vegas. Occupy Las Vegas, what better place to occupy? (laughs) Occupy a casino. But, that’s what I remember, and that was very important. And I think it kinda set an example that institutions in a community have an obligation to support the interests of the people in the community, not just like -- it was in fact walled off, it had this black wrought iron fence all the way [00:58:00] around it. Do you remember? And kinda like tried to be an isolated island in the community. And I think people showed that it couldn’t be, it had to relate to the community it existed in. JJ: And you mentioned Manuel Ramos, what do you remember of that? 30 �LT: Well, I was trying to rack my brain to understand. I think I must have met him at least. I didn’t know him well, but I know that when we returned from Cuba, just before May Day, that’s what we learned. In Cuba we heard nothing about what was going on back in the States, I mean, we didn’t have cell phones or the internet or anything like that. So, this is what we were told when we got back that he had been killed by police, was it a police -- I don’t remember the details, but I do remember the turnout, that it was just this very impressive -- there were pictures that showed people like six abreast walking down the middle [00:59:00] of the street, I don’t know if it was Division or what it was. But I remember that occasion because it seemed so apropos to come back from Cuba and see this massing of progressive people demonstrating against the kind of attacks that police were pulling off. In fact, later when I actually held a nine to five job, I worked on the Red Squad Spy suit, and a lot of the people who spied on activists in Lincoln Park and elsewhere were -- the lawyers got special permission to do not court reporters which were so expensive, but actually tape record the depositions of these spies and I was one of the people who transcribed -- that’s the first transcription job I ever -- transcribed those depositions. And I could see people walk through the office at the Better Government [01:00:00] Association to the conference room for their deposition and recognize me -- JJ: These are police? LT: -- and I would recognize them. JJ: These are police, undercover police? 31 �LT: Yeah. The Red Squad started I think in the ’30s and it initiated to spy on labor, labor unions, infiltrate them, report to the police. It went through the Peace Movement, the anti-war movement, the Civil Rights -- it was always there. And in fact, I think Michael Moore had a movie that talks about that kind of infiltration of cops going to meetings and everything. And people who -- when they’d walk through to that conference room and I looked at them and they knew who I was ’cause they’d spied on me and a lot of other people, it was just kind of this feeling like, “Well, we gotcha now. We know what you are. You’re not a progressive person, you were a spy for the cops all this time.” JJ: So, you actually saw your name in the [01:01:00] files or -- LT: Well, I was part -- oh yeah, I was part -- I have my file. Of course, when you get your file, did you ever get your file, it’s all redacted, big black lines through everything that would indicate who it was that was reporting this information about you. And there was a cop who every time I came out of Montana Street apartment, [Maury Daly?], he’d be sitting in an unmarked car, wave to me, follow me wherever I went, you know, that kind of intimidation, it was just kinda -- some of it was just silliness. JJ: So, you’re saying they were going to the meetings? What else would they do? LT: They came to meetings whether it was civil rights or community meetings or whatever as if they were ordinary people. I don’t wanna name names. JJ: No, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LT: And then once this -- JJ: But can you describe some of the things that they were -- 32 �LT: Pardon? JJ: Can you describe some of the things they were doing? LT: Well, when they came to meetings and demonstrations, they didn’t stand out from anybody else, you know, [01:02:00] it was a nice person, a teacher maybe who claimed to believe in something and came and showed up with a sign or whatever. But they were there to take names down, who was at the meeting, who said what, that kinda stuff. And it happened all over the country, but we’re familiar with it as the Red Squad suit. And back in the early ’80s, that was my job at the BGA, I was transcribing those things and working solely on the suit. And the files of people who were spied on and the spies were all stored there. So, I could walk into the file room with dozens of file cabinets in it and my file was in there, my Red Squad file. So, I was part of the class action. JJ: So, what about, is that COINTELPRO, is that the same thing or -- LT: Not exactly. I mean, in a way it was [01:03:00] because there were other suits at the same time. JJ: Can you describe COINTELPRO, what is that? LT: That was uncovered in the Percy Hearings I think, weren’t they, that it was a national, run by the FBI especially. COINTELPRO was Counterintelligence Program and they tracked the plot to kill Fred Hampton through COINTELPRO. The Red Squad thing was a different thing, I really have no idea or recollection how much of the local operation was influenced or mandated by national COINTELPRO. I only know what happened here. And at the same time, we also had a suit against military intelligence and the FBI, so different offices handled 33 �different aspects of the lawsuit. The Lawyers’ Committee to defend the Bill of Rights I believe had the suit against the FBI and another organization, I can’t remember which it was [01:04:00] that had the other part. So, I did a lot of the typing of the brief for it. I mean, being a secretary had its advantages. I was also the secretary in the Hampton civil suit and I still have the fly page from the notebook that the People’s Law Office gave me. This was before computers. I did it on my IBM Selectric typewriter, it was red. And they would come to my house every night and sit around my dining room table and edit pages and I’d have to go and cut and paste and put the document together. And the NACP gave them a grant only for secretarial help like that. And so, before the lawyers saw a penny, I was being paid, which I kinda felt bad about, but then again, I was earning a living, but they didn’t get paid till the settlement [01:05:00] happened, you know. JJ: And what were some of the things that came out in the trial, in the settlement? LT: Well, the documents were -- it was the complaint against the Chicago Red Squad and it was incident after incident of evidence of police spying on people exercising their constitutional rights, we hear a lot about constitutional rights today, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and the police were harassing -many people lost jobs because they would go to your boss and say, “Did you know that your employee did this or that?” It was a big thick thing, don’t ask me to recite it. JJ: (inaudible) LT: (laughs) But it existed and I did that. 34 �JJ: But I heard they sent letters to different people -- LT: Pardon? JJ: -- to spouses, they sent letters or -- LT: There were a lot of -- [01:06:00] I don’t remember exact circumstances. JJ: So, they weren’t just collecting information, they were -- LT: No, they collected information, but they also caused problems for people, it was an intimidation. I mean, telling your boss that your employee is a -- I don’t wanna call names, you know, a communist or who the heck knows, that can get you fired. So, it was harmful, many people suffered direct injury from it. But most of the class were any people who were intimidated from participating by presence and knowledge that the Red Squad was afoot, spying on you even though we didn’t know exactly who it might be that was the spy. And not to build it up to sound like international spies, but some of them were people who were firmly against what we were doing, the [01:07:00] kind of causes we were involved in whether it was peace, civil rights, anti-war, whatever. And some of them might have been people who did it in exchange for cops dropping a charge that they mighta had, somebody gets caught doing something they shouldn’t and they said, “Are you willing to do this?” And they say, “Sure, I’ll do that. Just don’t arrest me for whatever I did wrong.” They came to it in a lot of ways. So, yeah. JJ: And was this brought up like in court, like some of the -- LT: Well, I actually never went to court, it was only the lawyers who went to court. JJ: No, but I mean this information that the Red Squad gathered, was it used against individuals? 35 �LT: For it to be -- JJ: Or, if you know. LT: -- in their files, it meant that the whole police department could look up somebody and know what they were about. And whether they wanted to harass people individually like going to their bosses or spouses or whatever, [01:08:00] or whether they wanted to sabotage the work of organizations, sometimes there’d be agent provocateurs, they weren’t just reporting, they were suggesting things that might be illegal to try to get people to do things they shouldn’t, so they could be arrested. There was a whole array of dirty tricks that they did. And I only mention it because from being a victim myself, although not harmed as much as other people were, to being a person who could sit there and watch these spies kind of be called [to just?], they were outed, suddenly the whole movement knew who these people were. And just to be at that desk before the conference room as they walked in and looked at me, and I looked at them as if to say, “Now, I know who you really are.” [01:09:00] JJ: What about, did you hear anything about Reverend Bruce Johnson? LT: No. No. JJ: No? LT: I know I had met him when the Young Lords were in the church, but I knew nothing about what went on there. Yeah. JJ: I said that because it happened just about a month and a half before Fred Hampton’s death. LT: Really? Oh, it had happened before. 36 �JJ: (overlapping conversation; inaudible) LT: I remember that it happened, but I knew nothing about the details. JJ: (overlapping conversation; dialogue) September 29th. LT: Did they ever find who did it? JJ: No, it actually is still a cold case. LT: Still a cold case. JJ: They haven’t found out who did it or -- LT: No. JJ: -- I don’t think they want to find out. LT: Yeah. Were they trying to blame the Young Lords? JJ: The Young Lords were blamed, yes. I mean, they were at least insinuated. LT: Yeah. You know, through the years, you might have remembered the Lincoln Park, oh what was it? Remember Dick Vision. JJ: Same thing. LT: Yeah. I remember [01:10:00] his -- ’cause that struggle was against urban renewal in the community. And I was friends with Dick, in fact, I went up to -when my daughter was born, [Maya?], we took a trip up to British Columbia to visit him and his wife and little daughter Revy for revolution, Revolutionary Hope, it turns out her name was really Hope, but that’s what they called her, Revy. And we stayed up there, talk about cold, I’m never going back in February to British Columbia, but it was beautiful. Yeah, he was a good guy and then he went to China to teach English in China and the last I heard he married a Chinese woman, I think he’s still there. Yeah. 37 �JJ: (inaudible) recently (inaudible), but that’s another issue. LT: Have we covered everything? JJ: What else, what do you think (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). F2: I think it was pretty complete. JJ: It was pretty complete. [01:11:00] How about the People’s Law Office that you -whatever you called it? LT: Well, I worked with the People's Law Office on the Hampton suit. JJ: (inaudible) LT: I mean, I typed the complaint for it and it was the, as I said the NACP who paid for that. Yes, I was close, I mean Flint and Jeff and Jeff wrote a wonderful book, The Assassination of Fred Hampton which I have an autographed copy of. And I still sometimes check Chicago papers and Flint’s still involved in fighting for justice on all kinds of fronts. And now a big thing is the Innocence Projects, all over the country. When I worked at the BGA, the guy who started it at Northwestern, David Protess, I worked in the same office with him and then he went on to start the Innocence Project at Northwestern, and now they’re everywhere, there’s even an Innocence Project in Las Vegas. So, I think that’s a [01:12:00] great thing, trying to fight for freedom of people wrongly incarcerated. JJ: So, what do you think were the main -- the most important aspect of that era, that (inaudible)? LT: Of the era. I think it was always, there had to be the fight against racism because no matter where you turned, that was very central to a struggle, yeah. I remember later I worked with an organization that had a newspaper called 38 �Frontline, On the “Frontline Against War and Racism,” that those were the twin kind of anchors of the progressive movement and they really were. When you talk about U.S. military intervention in Central America, that’s the war aspect and as well as racism, the idea that the United States Government could dictate to other countries how they should govern their countries and things like that. [01:13:00] JJ: Now, you went in the church several time or -- LT: Oh yeah, I’d be in the church. JJ: What was it like, can you describe -- to you, what was it like to you? LT: Pardon? JJ: What was it like to you? LT: It was like a church. I don’t know. (laughs) I remember I was there when you had the clinic in the church, I remember visiting the clinic, I remember you had a breakfast for children program. Yeah, that’s the parts that I remember. But mostly I remember that it was just this -- in the community, the activists in the community. ’Cause at the People’s Information Center, we had a breakfast program, at the church on Diversey, there was the Fritzi Engelstein, Free People’s Health Clinic and the mural is still there on that church. And it just made the whole larger community [01:14:00] so much more -- these progressive aspects so visible whether you are an Armitage or a Diversey or Halsted or whatever, you got the impression that there were progressive people doing good stuff in this community. JJ: A base like (inaudible). 39 �LT: Yeah, it was a base. Of course, you know what urban renewal did to that. And when I would drive down Halsted and see the fancy expensive housing that was built on People’s Park or whatever, it almost makes you wonder, did all that other stuff really happen, you know, when you see it so transformed. But it was a special era, and I don’t see -- I haven’t seen anything like it since then. I think it was very unique, it was, people had a sense of power that they could do stuff and [01:15:00] I don’t see it that way now. There’s so much separateness between the environmental movement or the anti-war movement or the anti-nuke movement or whatever. Some activists circulate among all of them, but there’s no coming together, the kind of coalition that worked in Lincoln Park and around Chicago then. JJ: Now, in terms of the Women’s Movement, how did that fit in? LT: I was probably less active in the Women’s Movement than I was in any of the other stuff. And it’s ironic because a new movie’s coming out that -- did you ever know my friend Ethan Young? JJ: You know, I heard his name, yeah. LT: Yeah? He’s a writer, he’s in New York, he lives in Brooklyn and his wife Mary Dore has just collaborated with another filmmaker to make this wonderful movie about the Women’s Movement in the ’70s, which was really -- I mean the Women’s Movement didn’t just start then, it’s been going since before [01:16:00] suffragettes, you know. But it’s really great ’cause there are a lot of Chicago faces in it, I’ve seen the trailer for it. It’s called, She’s Beautiful When She’s Angry. And that’s the name of the film, and it should be out within a month. But I 40 �wasn’t as active in that as I was in whether it was Cuba or breakfast program or all the other stuff that was going on in the community. JJ: Was there any work being done at all? LT: Pardon? JJ: You said there was a women’s group. LT: Oh, there was, oh, yes, I just wasn’t as active in it myself personally. JJ: Okay. LT: Yeah. Oh, yes, they were very much, yeah. If you kinda keep a tabs on it and Google the movie, when it comes out, you watch it online and you’ll see, “Oh, there’s so and so.” You’ll know faces. It’s a good thing. JJ: Okay, we’re kinda tapering down, but any final thoughts? LT: Not really. I just think that there’s always something to be done, maybe -- it’s kinda like in an electoral campaign, not everybody can walk and knock doors, not everybody can cold call people in a phone bank. But people can write letters to the editor, people can make comments online articles, people can individually find a demonstration to go to or a forum to attend or a donation to make. There’s always something people can do to strengthen that movement and they should do it. JJ: All right. Thank you. LT: You’re welcome. End Of Audio File 41 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/769d9e910cfdb5f53c521b40ccb6c7ed.mp4 aa655634ea06119f8c326fb3d3f2970a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Aaron Dixon vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Aaron Dixon, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 3/14/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Dixon_Aaron Title A name given to the resource Aaron Dixon video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dixon, Aaron Description An account of the resource Oral history of Aaron Dixon, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 3/14/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. This interview is incomplete. At approximately 39 minutes, the interview with Dixon cuts to another interview with Linda Turner and does not return to Dixon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-03-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c68b03040abe4744e913bc5a74e2d4ef.pdf 31376d754ba0a3f804691b7395711967 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Patricia Devine-Reed Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/10/2012 Biography and Description English Patricia Devine-Reed was the leader of the Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park (later called the Concerned Citizens Survival Front of Lincoln Park), the first group to protest urban renewal plans on the grounds that Puerto Ricans and African Americans were being displaced from their homes and priced out of the renewing neighborhood. Ms. Devine-Reed successfully recruited José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez to attend one of their meetings with the Department of Urban Renewal in 1969. The meeting proved to be important for many reasons. Mr. Jiménez took a group of about 35 youth into this meeting. When they saw a display detailing the displacement of Puerto Rican and poor people from Lincoln Park and heard the realtors and developers from the Lincoln Park Conservation Association describe their plans for the neighborhood, they were furious and spontaneously thrashed the entire urban renewal building. The resulting destruction closed down the building for several months. Ms. Devine-Reed also helped to organize the broad-based Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition (Mr. Jiménez became its president) to try to save the poor from being forced out of their homes in Lincoln Park. An artist and curator, Ms. Devine-Reed continues to advocate on behalf of women, civil and community rights in Chicago. �Spanish Patricia Devine-Reed era una de los líderes del Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park (después se cambiaron a los Concerned Citizens Survival Front of Lincoln Park), que fueron el primer grupo en protestar los planes de reconstrucción ciudadana en parte de que los Puertorriqueños y Afroamericanos iban ser desalojados de sus casas y luego subieran el precio de la renta de las nuevas residencias. Señora Devine-Reed felizmente recluto a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez para uno de los reuniones del Department of Urban Renewal en 1969. Las reúnes probaron ser muy importantes por muchas razones. Señor Jiménez tomo in grupo de jóvenes a esta reunión. Cuando vieron la muestra de cómo desalojado de los Puertoriquenos y pobres de Lincoln Park y escucharon como los agentes y promotores de Lincoln Park Conservation Association describieron sus planes para el vecindario, los jóvenes estaban furiosos y revolcaron el edificio en donde estaban haciendo la reconstrucción. Esto resulto en cerrando el edificio por unos meses por la destrucción. La señora Devine-Reed también ayuda los pobres que están desalojados de sus casa en Lincoln Park, con la organización, Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition en donde el señor Jiménez era presidente. Una artista y conservadora, Señora Devine-Reed continua soportar los derechos de mujeres, el civil y la comunidad en Chicago. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Can you tell me how you feel (inaudible)? PATRICIA DEVINE-REED: JJ: Okay, so -- (inaudible) anything. PDR: My name is Patricia Divine-Reed. I was privileged to be in Lincoln Park in the 1960s and early 1970s, and to have met Cha-Cha Jiménez and the Young Lords during that time. I came to Lincoln Park as a full-time resident in 1964, after I had graduated from college. I had attended Alverno college in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, but during the four previous summers, I had also lived in Lincoln Park with a organization, Young Christian Students, whose [00:01:00] mission it was to awaken students to issues of social justice, the need for change, how Christians impacted that, and so on. So, I was working with young Christian students. When I graduated, I moved full-time to the Lincoln Park neighborhood. It was a very exciting place. There was every imaginable European Ethnic group lived in the community; Irish, Germans, Polish, there were gypsies in the community. A large -JJ: What year was this? PDR: The Puerto Rican, 1964. Large Puerto Rican section of the community. In the south end of the neighborhood, [00:02:00] there were low-income African American families, that was just north of Cabrini-Green. And there were lots of students there. Some hippies, but it was a opened community, where everyone could live, everyone could express themselves. And a very exciting place. In the 1 �mid-’60s, as we entered into the later ’60s, ’66, ’67, there were some obvious changes that had started to take place in the neighborhood. The eastern part of the neighborhood was growing more and more wealthy, and many of the people who had lived there before [00:03:00] no longer could afford to own their homes, to rehabilitate their homes, to pay the taxes. On the main streets, there were a lot of large apartment complexes that were -- that had tenants, tenants of all kinds, families, single people, students. And many of those buildings, the owners were absentee landlords, and they had stopped renovating the properties. So, there were changes taking place. It wasn’t always clear exactly what was happening. But there were also changes taking place all over the world. This was a time of great questioning of upheaval throughout the world. There were [00:04:00] independent struggles taking place, and the whole Southern Hemisphere, Africa, South America, Central America, India, all over the world there were independent struggles taking place. JJ: Okay, so all these things are going on all over the world, so how were you feeling about these things? PDR: Well, I had been raised to believe that everyone should have a fair shake in life, that -- that people should love everyone, that everyone needed to have equality and justice and adequate food, clothing, shelter, [00:05:00] independent voice in their own lives. So, I was feeling excited about new possibilities for the human race. JJ: In Lincoln Park here? 2 �PDR: Throughout the world, in Lincoln Park, in the whole United States, there was a Civil Rights movement that was going on in the United States. There was a large student movement. There was a movement against the war in Vietnam, very large. The people were speaking out everywhere for their own independence, and own self-determination. So, it was a time that the old way of life was being challenged, and new possibilities for people were opening [00:06:00] up. In Lincoln Park, the changes that we saw taking place seemed to be very -- initially seemed to be very much a part of the old way of life. Those who had were getting more, were moving into the neighborhood, were moving out people who had lived there all their lives had small businesses, sent their children -- raised their children through the schools, and so on. And they could no longer keep up with the tax payments and the renovation that was being required. I really became aware, though, of what the specifics of the situation were, I believe it was summer, 1966. Maybe it was -- excuse me, winter, 1966. Maybe it was ’67. [00:07:00] I had become involved with a church in the neighborhood, Parish of the Holy Covenant. And they had opened a storefront in the 2500 block of Lincoln Avenue, the north part of Lincoln Park, so that the church would have a -be much more involved on a day-to-day basis in the lives of the people in the community, whatever the issues happened to be. There was -- so my early engagements, I learned that there was a larger organization of churches, the North Side Cooperative Ministry, that included all the mainline churches in the area. [00:08:00] And one of their main struggles was against a new program that had come to the area, and that was Urban Renewal. Urban Renewal was a 3 �program that had been put in place after World War II. It was federal. The legislation had been written by Truman and Julian Levi from the University of Chicago. He had been on the board of the University of Chicago. And the goal was to bring a stronger financial base to urban cities, and also around institutions in the city. So, the University of Chicago, I’d become very worried, because the University had been become surrounded in the Woodlawn neighborhood by an African [00:09:00] American community, and they wanted to make certain that things were safe and secure for university students, professors, and so on. And also, that land would be available for expansion of the University. So together with Truman and the City of Chicago, Mayor Daley, they put in place legislation that would enable development to take place in the city. Well, the problem with the legislation that was put in place was that it was development to the advantage of institutions in the city, not large numbers of people that lived in the city. So the first Urban Renewal Program that took place happened down around the University of Chicago. And there was [00:10:00] a large movement from Woodlawn Organization against the program, because what it meant was, that through a semi-legal body, the Conservation Community Council, plans could be developed that would remove large sections of people and make way for development by the University. It might be housing, it might be expansion of University buildings. But it was not to the advantage of the people that were living there. So the Woodlawn Organization was the first one to take on this whole notion of Urban Renewal. The second area of -JJ: And they were in favor of urban renewal? 4 �PDR: Not the Woodlawn Organization. The Woodlawn Organization was opposed to [00:11:00] urban renewal as it was taking place down in Woodlawn, because it meant that many people would be forced to move without having anything to say about it. The next area that was to be developed in the city was the area on the near west side, which was primarily an old, Italian community and a newer African American community. That was to make way for the University of Illinois, which at that time was at Navy Pier, but they wanted to create this whole University complex on the near west side of Chicago. And that meant, again, that sections of land that were owned by families would have to be confiscated by the city to make way for the building of University of Illinois, [00:12:00] or the state, in this case. Florence Scala was the woman for the Italian community, the new west side, that began organizing people in opposition to the building in the expansion of the University. And they have massive movement of people. But you could see -JJ: What do you mean massive? (inaudible) PDR: -- large numbers, large numbers of people that came to -- tried to keep their homes, tried to get adequate value for their homes. And businesses, it was a thriving community, tried to make, instead of the renewal that was taking place, just to the benefit of the University [00:13:00] that money would be made available for people to renovate their homes, to renovate apartment complexes for decent living for tenants of all kinds. But as -JJ: Were there demonstrations, too? Or no demonstrations? 5 �PDR: There were demons-- oh, they demonstrated. They were very vocal, yes. They were an inspiration to many communities. But as we can see now, the University of Illinois is the property owner in a large, large area that goes from -- the University itself goes from Roosevelt up to Jackson, in some places, and it goes all the way west from Halsted to Ashland. So Halsted to Ashland is a mile. [00:14:00] So it’s at least a mile square, and in some cases goes east of Halsted. Some of the buildings are east of Halsted. Very little housing left there from the old Italian community, the African American community, the owners of the buildings that were renting to African Americans, Latinos and Italians -- all of that has been wiped out. Many churches and other institutions tried to hold out for a long time, but eventually, they also gave in. Maxwell Street, the owners of the property on Maxwell Street, a wonderful, wonderful open-air market, primarily stands owned by the Jewish community, they held out for a long time, but [00:15:00] eventually, Maxwell Street also went by way of the University. This happened over quite a number of years, but it was happening at the time I was living in Lincoln Park. And the pastors of churches had become very concerned about what was happening and what the future was for people in the community. The first action that I became involved in was at a -- it was a demonstration outside of the offices of Lincoln Park Conservation Association in the winter. I believe it was January, 1967. Lincoln Park Conservation Association was supposed to be [00:16:00] a neighborhood association, like the old -- like Back of the Yards Neighborhood Council, the Alinsky Organizations. But it had become a homeowners’ association, but not representing all homeowners; not the small 6 �homeowners, not the working-class homeowners, but those who had quite adequate financial resources and wanted to see the community around them develop into a more wealthy area. Lincoln Park Conservation Association had completely thrown their hat into supporting the Urban Renewal Program as a way to upgrade financially the community, not as a way [00:17:00] to improve the quality of housing for the people living there. Remember, I said it was a very diverse and very exciting ethnic area, racial area, all ages. And it was clear that as the community became wealthier, that was no longer going to be the case. So in, I believe, January of 1967, there was a demonstration by the North Side Cooperative Ministry, and many other members of the churches in opposition to positions that were being taken by Lincoln Park Conservation Association. A short time after that, a new organization was formed, Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park, and the main goal [00:18:00] of Concerned Citizens was to represent the common people of the neighborhood that were not being represented by Lincoln Park Conservation Association, so it included the homeowners, the shopkeepers, all the ethnic groups. And they were in coalition with the churches and with an organization in the southern part of the neighborhood, Neighborhood Commons, that was actually a corporation whose goal was to develop low income housing for people in the southern part of the neighborhood. I eventually became the principal organizer for Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park. So we organized everywhere. Wherever there was a [00:19:00] threat that a particular area was going to be the next area that the city or realtors were going to try and capture, there we would go to organize. So it 7 �might be tenants, it might be homeowners, it might be a commercial strip. And it became clear that actually, Concerned Citizens and the churches were a little behind the eight ball, that the plan had pretty much already been set by the Lincoln Park Conservation Association and the City of Chicago. Then we learned also that the only way this program came [00:20:00] to the neighborhood was that institutions had to join with the city to bring the Urban Renewal Program. And the institutions that were in support of the program were Children’s Memorial Hospital, DePaul University, and McCormick Theological Seminary. Their goal was to create a area around their institutions, which would be conducive to their staff, to their students, to a different kind of population that existed in the community, which was the ethnic family population of the community. So not only was it Lincoln Park Conservation Association [00:21:00] that became the organization that we were confronting, challenging about what they were doing, but it was also these institutions. Legally, the statute required that there be a paralegal or semi-legal body that would approve the plans for our community. That body had to include the institutions, include people from the City of Chicago, some residents from the community, Conservation Community Council included all of those people, but none of them represented the low income and middle [00:22:00] income families and ethnic groups of the community. It included only the institutions and the wealthy of the community, the eastern side of Lincoln Park, closer to the lake. The primary position taken by Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park is that we want renewal for the people who live here, not for a whole new population of people. We’re not opposed, we’re not opposed to houses 8 �being upgraded for people who live here, we’re not opposed to new housing for African American and Puerto Rican and Mexican and Polish families. We want the neighborhood to be upgraded [00:23:00] for the people who live here. That’s the right of everyone to live in decent housing with decent stores, decent schools, good transportation, access to the amenities of the lake, and so forth. But that was not what the plan was of those who were in control of the planning process. Monthly, there were meetings at the Conservation Community Council. So for each meeting, we would organize residents to attend whose living circumstances were being considered at that meeting. It was sometime [00:24:00] in late ’67 or 1968 that I was working with a group of tenants in the 20- and 2100 blocks of Halsted Street, west side of the street. There was the Conservation Community Council was considering a plan to demolish the buildings there. We were organizing tenants to come and speak for themselves about improving that property, rather than demolishing it, and improving it for the people who lived there. One night, I recall we were -- another organizer, Dick [Vision?] and myself, we were making posters out on the sidewalks, and it was a [00:25:00] summer night, in front of the buildings in the 20 hundred block, and there were young guys who had a hotdog stand right on the corner there at Halsted and Dickens. And we started talking to them about what we were doing, and asking them to join us in making these posters because their -- this month, their homes might not be threatened, but they would be next month or next year, if the plan continued to move forward of Lincoln Park Conservation Association, and the Conservation Community Council. We were out there many nights, actually, 9 �working with residents, and one night I met a young man named Cha-Cha Jiménez. He was very sharp, [00:26:00] very bright. Had -- I think he had just come out of jail on some charge, and he said that he -- he told us that he was the leader of the Young Lords gang. I said, “Well, I don’t care, you (audio cuts out) and start fighting for your people because they’re going to meet the same fate as the people in these buildings right here.” I said, “You know, people in the buildings want you to help them, but they’re afraid of you, and you don’t want -you’re afraid of them because you say they don’t want you on the corner. You need to join together. This is time to join together, not to be separated. Cha-Cha was -- he challenged what we were saying, “Why should [00:27:00] we do this?” But eventually he came to see that fighting for any one group in the neighborhood was a way that he could secure the future for his own Puerto Rican brothers and sisters. They had been in the community since the ’50s, and were growing, large Puerto Rican community in the southern part of Lincoln Park. Their future in the community was threatened, just as that of all the other ethnic groups in the community. So eventually Cha-Cha joined with us. I remember one of the first meetings that he agreed to go to, it was a [00:28:00] Conservation Community Council meeting. I’m not even sure exactly which proposal was being considered at that meeting. It may have been for the 20-block, 100-block of Halsted. And he brought with him other members of the Young Lords Organization. And at some point in the meeting, I believe it was just after the vote by the Conservation Community Council to support the demolition of the property, they, as young people do, were very angry, and got up and started 10 �throwing chairs. It was something that all the civilized people were very surprised at. I mean, [00:29:00] we had been demonstrating very nicely, and there had been, you know, everybody acted very proper because the churches were behind the opposition movement, and so on. But now we had these young people. And their whole style of operating was much different than that of the churches. But the police were called, and they were arrested. But it set in motion a very important liberation struggle for the community that went on for -JJ: What, exactly, do you remember of that day for this kind of a -- but I don’t think they were -- police didn’t arrest people that day, it was another day that they arrested (inaudible). But what do you remember -- PDR: What I remember is the chair throwing, and everybody from all sides [00:30:00] were just stunned. JJ: Who was in the audience? PDR: Well, there were -- these meetings were -- by this time, many people had started to come to the Conservation Community Council meetings because it meant their future. You know, where were they going to (dog barking) -(break in audio) PDR: Sure. JJ: Okay, so what do you remember of that meeting, that Community Conservation Council meeting? PDR: Well, Cha-Cha came with, I don’t know, 10 to 15 guys that night. This was really their first involvement. They -- in fact, I was surprised he brought so many. 11 �JJ: Ten or fifteen, or fifty or sixty? Wasn’t it something like that, now? [00:31:00] Or a little larger amount in terms of people? PDR: You had 50 or 60? JJ: I thought that we (inaudible). PDR: Oh, I don’t think you had that many. JJ: Okay. All right. PDR: But anyway, it doesn’t matter the number, what -JJ: How many do you think came? How many do you think came? PDR: I don’t know. Fifteen, twenty. JJ: Fifteen or twenty? All right. All right. PDR: Yeah. There were a lot of people at the meeting. They had charts out, the Conservation Community Council had charts out with the plans that had already been decided, or were being proposed, to date. They still had different sections to vote on, and so on. I [00:32:00] remember Cha-Cha looking at it, and the areas where his family lived and where most of the Puerto Rican family lived in the new proposal, they were not going to be there anymore. So he took that time to educate his guys and say, “Look at” -- you know, “Where are we in the future?” So it really became a time when he used to do political education with the other young people that came with him. The proposals, as I said, I don’t remember the exact proposals that were being voted on at that meeting. Each meeting they voted on a section of the community, and what was to happen. And there was already a proposal that had been laid out by the institutions, [00:33:00] the city, and Lincoln Park Conservation Association. None of the people from Concerned 12 �Citizens had been involved in making these proposals. They had done this all in closed doors, and so on. JJ: Whose office was that? PDR: It was the Urban Renewal office. There had been an office specifically sat up to manage the Urban Renewal Program and operation, so it was a political office. It was the City of Chicago office that we were meeting at. The Young Lords raised the issue about representation. Actually, representation was being raised by many. The North Side Cooperative Minister was raising the issue, in fact, had a whole [00:34:00] slate of people that they wanted to be included on the Conservation Community Council. As the issue of representation was raised, Cha-Cha raised the issue of, where are the Puerto Rican community on this Conservation Council? And things happened very fast. And all of a sudden, chairs were flying. And it was -- everyone, everyone was stunned on all sides, because this wasn’t the way the “proper people” did business. But it woke folks up to the fact that [00:35:00], you know, this is a new day. And people are not gonna let somebody else speak for them, plan their lives for them. But we’re going to determine our own life, our own future, have our own voice. This is our own community. We’re gonna stay here. If there’s any development that takes place it has to include us in the decision making. It has to be done for us, as well as others in the community. It was -- I think the meeting ended very quickly. There were no decisions that were made after that. They wanted folks out as fast as possible. And -- 13 �JJ: Now you were -- you said people were [00:36:00] standing outside. Were people afraid? Were some, like -- were your people afraid of the Young Lords, or other (inaudible)? PDR: I think -- well, clearly people from the city were afraid, and Lincoln Park Conservation Association, because what was being challenged was their position of leadership. I don’t think anybody from the churches that were from the North Side Cooperative Ministry or Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park -- they were stunned because it was a different way of doing business. But I don’t think that they were afraid. They were happy, as a matter of fact, that there were additional voices that were coming into participation in the community around this issue. What was at stake, according to the proposals, was moving [00:37:00] out 80 to 100,000 people, working class people, poor folks, owners of small stores, senior citizens, all their lives and whose homes weren’t up to the standard that they expected in the renewal program. So there was a lot at stake. And there was also a lot at stake for those who sought profit from urban renewal, the real estate companies -- billions were to be made from the new developments that were proposed. So any challenge to that was frightening to those who had developed the plans to that point. [00:38:00] I think the churches which had joined together to challenge the renewal plans were churches that saw that everyone had to have the opportunity to speak for themselves, to be independent, to have decent food, clothing, shelter. So they weren’t afraid of this new movement, but they were in support of it. And in fact, a short time later offered housing to the Young Lords Organization; [00:39:00] Armitage Avenue, United Methodist Church. The 14 �Young Lords were offered housing by Reverend Bruce Johnson. So, I mean, that’s just a sign that the churches were in support, for the most part, of what was happening. JJ: So this meeting takes place, and you go back to the Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park, and North Side Cooperative Ministry was there also. So now what were -- how did they feel about the -- was there -- did it impact them, or --? PDR: No, they were very much -- it impacted them, yes. Yeah, it impacted them because -- but in a positive way, it’s a growing movement for -- to maintain a diverse multicultural, [00:40:00] multi-income community. JJ: Because they didn’t [answer that?], there was a Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition? Can you (inaudible)? PDR: But that came about much later. JJ: Okay. What came next, what came next. PDR: Yeah. You know, I don’t know if I remember all of the -JJ: Timeline? PDR: The timeline, yeah. JJ: Okay. PDR: I remember major things that happened. I remember the day-to-day of organizing. JJ: Well, two days later, there was an arrest, right? Or not an arrest, but there was an action at the Chicago (inaudible) police station. What was that about? PDR: Well -JJ: Two days later. (inaudible) 15 �PDR: -- Young Lords had been arrested. Cha-Cha had been arrested, and other Young Lords had been arrested. And while there was no -- [00:41:00] they initially weren’t charged with anything, they had been picked up by the police. And we had a demonstration outside, and some of us went inside the police station. I remember that Reverend [Reed?] was always a spokesperson. And the churches -- none of you were jailed at that time, were you? You were arrested, but -JJ: There were two warrants after that charge. No one was arrested. PDR: Nobody was arrested? Nothing? JJ: There were two warrants and I was taken to the lock-up, and then I was released, and then there was a group outside that we -- [00:42:00] they were outside. PDR: But again, that was -- I mean, the police should have had no reason to pick up the Young Lords at that time. But everything in Chicago was connected to the Daley administration. Remember, this was a city office where the demonstration had taken place two nights before. The Conservation Community Council was the paralegal body, operating out of the Urban Renewal office, the city office. Daley -- or those who connected with him gave the word, and the Young Lords were arrested two days later. Picked up. Picked up two days later. So [00:43:00] anybody who was available went at a moment’s notice over to the police station to provide support outside the station, and several people were allowed in the station. And that really was the mantra, the style of things from 16 �then on, that if anybody was attacked, instantly we would mobilize a support group to provide support, to raise bail money, to provide legal support. JJ: How did you work with the Young Lords after that? After those meetings, there were other meetings, there was -- PDR: There were lots of meetings. Lots of meetings. Things happened very fast. And the next two years, the next two years all seems [00:44:00] to flow together. I worked very closely with Cha-Cha many, many, many, many nights, talking about what the specific issues were related to the Urban Renewal plan, what it meant for groups, working class people, poor people to speak for themselves, to no longer be oppressed by traditional systems. And it wasn’t something unique, it was happening everywhere in the United States and around the world that people were speaking for themselves. It just happened to be that this situation was an issue of land and housing, and where people lived, and whether or not they could continue to live in the houses that they lived in. And it [00:45:00] pointed to the future. You know, these issues were to be issues of people for, you know, generations to come. It was almost impossible working with the Young Lords to separate the issues of Lincoln Park from the issues of Puerto Rican independence, and self-determination of people that I remember studying Mao Tse-tung’s “Little Red Book” with Cha-Cha, and going over line by line, studying the works of -- studying things that SDS was putting out that were being put out through the [00:46:00] Civil Rights movement. This was the year that -JJ: Were there newspapers or tabloids, or what? How were you studying -- did you have a newspaper? 17 �PDR: We had a newspaper, Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park had a newspaper, which we tried to put out monthly. It was a lot of work. And it carried the stories of people who, in the community, who were on welfare. Some businesses that were being forced out carried the stories of senior citizens who were harassed during the Democratic Convention in Lincoln Park in the part itself, but they were residents of the community. So it carried the plans [00:47:00] that -- the new plans that the Conservation Community Council was putting out. Proposals for housing, new construction as well as renovation of buildings that were already there, it presented the -- what groups like Neighborhood Commons were doing in the southern part of the neighborhood. So there was a lot of information about local things happening in the community. There were also newsletters that were put out by Neighborhood Commons. The churches were constantly issuing information about what was going on, not just about housing, but all of -[00:48:00] things interrelated. The health issues interrelated. There was a growing welfare rights organization. There was a growing relationship between African Americans in Cabrini and the areas just north of Cabrini, and south Lincoln Park. So all of these things impacted each other. Yes, we studied these with Cha-Cha. But also, many other things that were being published. The Civil Rights movement was continually issuing information. And then of course, ’68 was a year where many [00:49:00] things happened. There was the murder of Martin Luther King, Jr. There was the murder of Bobby Kennedy. The very vocal rising up of the Black Panther party, especially in Chicago, and Maywood in West Side of Chicago. There was a Democratic Convention that took place. That very 18 �clearly impacted the Lincoln Park neighborhood. Of course, the mayor did not want the people demonstrating, and then there was a split in the opposition movement to the Democratic Convention. [00:50:00] SDS split. And a group called the Weathermen split off. And their position was, we need to go into the neighborhoods and organize people in the neighborhoods, and expose Mayor Daley and the city for what they’re doing in the neighborhoods. And I recall having a conversation at that time with Cha-Cha about this, and what did he think about it? And he said, “Oh, if they do that, they’re just going to come and arrest us. The police will say that we were the ones that did it because it’s our neighborhood, and arrest those that they’ve always arrested before.” It was during that time that another young group formed called the Young Patriots, because they were the sons of many of the people who were involved with concerned [00:51:00] citizens, who were from -- who lived in the northern part of Lincoln Park, but who were from Appalacian Community. So they had been there for some time. But the young people were also harassed by the police. And they said that if anybody from the outside comes and demonstrates during the time of the Democratic Convention, they’re going to arrest us. The heat is going to come down on us. And so while we should have been in support of the opposition to many of the things that were happening at the Democratic Convention, the movement in Lincoln Park was, in some cases, opposed to the demonstrators. And we [00:52:00] had our own actions planned for the Democratic Convention. We had planned to showcase what the city, Lincoln Park Observation Association, the institution was doing in Urban Renewal by 19 �having a major march to the Urban Renewal office during the Democratic Convention. And we did. We had at least 300 people. It was, in some cases a celebration; we had a lot of ethnic music, we had ethnic flags and colors, we had big Paper Mache heads, and it was in one way a -- (phone rings) (break in audio) PDR: Okay, well, I was talking about the demonstration we [00:53:00] had during the Democratic Convention. And one of the things that we tried to make certain was that outsiders, Weather Underground, and any others that were trying to demonstrate in our community would have nothing to do with our demonstration, because they did not represent us. Their presence was a threat to especially young people in the Lincoln Park community, Puerto Rican community, the southern white community, African American community. Clearly, Cha-Cha, the Young Patriots and Fred Hampton were saying no, we don’t want you coming to our community during the Democratic Convention, or ever, to demonstrate, because it’s going to come back on us. They’re [00:54:00] going to say, “You did this,” especially since the young people had begun to be political. The young people from the community. And they were a threat to the new proposed way of life in the community. So yeah, the -JJ: I believe there was a countermarch, or something like that, between the Young Lords and the Panthers, or -- PDR: Well, we had the march to the Urban Renewal office. That was a large march. And it was very celebratory. There were lots of banners, colorful banners, ethnic music, drums, and people playing guitar. We had, as I[00:55:00] said, the Paper 20 �Mache heads of Urban Renewal. So it was -- it was a time for us to really consolidate, the churches, the community groups. We all consolidated and joined together. It was probably the first time that we really had a action that brought together all the different parts of the growing coalition in the community. So yeah, I wouldn’t say it was the countermarch, I would say it was THE action. But every night, every night during the Democratic Convention, I remember patrolling -- [00:56:00] a large group of us patrolled the streets in the community. I remember being out with Dick Vision and several others to make certain that the police were not going to arrest anyone from the Young Lords and other young people in the community. And, yeah, every night, we were out there patrolling. JJ: ’Cause these were the days of rage, actually. That’s what they were calling them. PDR: Yes. Yes. That’s what they called “the days of rage.” And there was already so much anger by this, Mayor Daley and the City of Chicago, that we just couldn’t allow anything more to come down on people in the neighborhood. [00:57:00] Cha-Cha, you have a much better memory of the timeline of events than I do. JJ: You were kind of skipping around, but let’s -- can you kind of explain what was going on with the whole McCormick situation, before the McCormick tip over, what was going on? I’m talking about the McCormick Theological Seminary. PDR: The McCormick Theological Seminary, Children’s Memorial Hospital and DePaul University were the three community institutions that joined together with the City of Chicago and realtors to bring Urban Renewal to the community. So they had 21 �become an enemy. Now there were many people inside of McCormick Theological Seminary, especially students [00:58:00] who had decided to place their allegiance with members of the community. So there were some professors, and many students. After all, McCormick was a theological school, theological institution that said that they were training people for ministry, and that they supported justice and equality for all people. So they were the most obvious contradiction as far as the three institutions went. They said one thing, yet they were operating in a totally different way. So it was [00:59:00] really the Poor People’s Coalition led by, at this point, the Young Lords Organization, determined to try and break McCormick, to get them to come to support of the Poor People’s Coalition. We had support inside by some students, and we had support by some professors. So on one hand, they were the weakest institution. On the other hand, they had these contradictions that were going; they said that they were training people for ministry, and yet were acting in an opposite way. So there was a decision to -- and this was not something that was unusual [01:00:00] in those days, there were many instances across the United States where movements would capture land or buildings and hold it as a way of strengthening their position. So that’s what happened at McCormick Theological Seminary. JJ: There was a meeting the same night as the takeover that took place at your office, you were meeting on some kind of decisions, where some information had been brought to the meeting about the -- I mean, what was the information that was being brought to the meeting? 22 �PDR: You know, I don’t remember. JJ: I mean, it was sort of like McCormick didn’t say anything, they might want to endorse something they’d planned, or, what do you call that? I know there was a meeting. I don’t know -- PDR: I remember the meeting. I remember the meeting. I don’t remember [01:01:00] what the specifics were, though, on the endorsement. JJ: Who was there? Who was at the meeting? PDR: There were people there from the Poor People’s Coalition from throughout the Lincoln Park. JJ: Do you have the names of (inaudible)? PDR: I remember Neil Shadle was there. He was the Neighborhood Commons, along with Dick Brown. Reverend Reed was there. JJ: Was Dick Simpson or any of those people there? PDR: Dick was there, yeah. Dick was there. I think from the Young Lords, Luis Cuza was there. JJ: I was there once. PDR: Yes, you were there. But I don’t remember the specifics. But there were parallel [01:02:00] decisions being made all over the -JJ: Were meetings going on with McCormick during that time to try to get them to invest money for housing, or --? PDR: Yes. We had been having meetings with McCormick to get them to endorse a housing corporation for, we called “Poor People’s Housing Corporation.” And there was really no money backing up the development of plans. We had been 23 �trying to get McCormick to support that development, and also, to act [01:03:00] on what they said that they were about, as an institution. Generally, to get McCormick to support the movement against what we came to call “Urban Removal.” What had they refused to do, I don’t remember the specifics. I don’t remember the specifics. But what I do remember was that McCormick was in the weakest position because they were acting against what they said they stood for. We had strong support inside the institution from students, and students really were the ones that opened the doors to us so that we could go into the institution [01:04:00] and claim it as ours for a week, we held it for a week. JJ: What do you mean, “claim it as ours”? What took place? PDR: We made an encampment inside the administration building of McCormick Theological Seminary. We refused to move until McCormick agreed to certain demands. If they had agreed to the demands before we ever went into the Seminary, we wouldn’t have expanded the demands. But once we were in there, we agreed to increase the demands. One demand was, we [01:05:00] asked for a million dollars to be put into a fund for low-income housing in the community for the Poor People’s Housing Development Corporation. We asked for $500,000 for many other things, for a free people’s legal clinic that was in the community and was representing people whenever it appeared that they had been unjustly arrested, brought up on trumped charges, and so on. So money for the free people’s legal clinic. We asked for money for the welfare organization that was developing in the community for the [01:06:00] daycare center that was to be run by the Young Lords Organization Medical Clinic, to be run by the Young Lords 24 �Organization. After a week, McCormick agreed to many of the demands. We compromised. Five hundred thousand instead of a million dollars for the Housing Corporation. A little lesser money for the legal clinic, I think it was $100,000 for the legal clinic. And I am not sure of the exact amounts now for the health center, for the -JJ: Twenty-five thousand for the -- PDR: Twenty-five thousand? JJ: Yeah. PDR: - for the child care center, [01:07:00] and for the welfare organization. But it was -- I think one of the things that was significant about that action was that so many of the students and actual -- the professors that were part of McCormick actually worked with us through the -- worked with the Poor People’s Coalition through the entire week negotiations beforehand, afterwards continued to work with the organizations that were funded through McCormick, set up many forums, educational forums about housing, about healthcare, [01:08:00] about people’s independence movements, and so forth. It was -JJ: Independence for Puerto Rico -- PDR: Independence for Puerto Rico, but also when I say “independence movements,” I’m talking about the Civil Rights movement, all the movements for justice and equality. Remember, there were women’s struggles that were going on, many struggles that were going on. So a coalition -- so a coalition -JJ: So the women’s struggle was also part of the movement that was going on in Lincoln Park. 25 �PDR: Yes. Yes. So a coalition developed between the Seminary and the larger coalition in the community. That, I think, was even more than the monies that came [01:09:00] out of it, that that coalition and the support that began to be generated from McCormick. Eventually, this wasn’t at the peak of the struggles in Lincoln Park, but eventually McCormick left Lincoln Park and moved to Hyde Park near the University of Chicago. JJ: Before we go there, were you inside the takeover -- when the takeover was taking place, were you inside the building? PDR: Of course. JJ: Okay, so what was going on inside? PDR: There was very disciplined -- everyone that was there was very disciplined, was very focused on the issues of the community. There were educationals that were taking place for all of those who were inside about what the issues [01:10:00] were on housing, on healthcare, on welfare. There were teams of people that were voted to do the negotiations with the administration of the Seminary. Everyone who was inside was very serious, was very disciplined, respected the building, was respectful of the administration of the Seminary. We clearly had a different view, but nevertheless, there was an atmosphere of respect. Education [01:11:00] and empowerment of everyone who was there. It was, I think, of all the actions, it was a time for real empowerment of especially communities that had been cut out of power. Young Lords, I think it was the primary empowerment action that took place for the Young Lords Organization. There were many situations, but that, I think, was the primary one. 26 �JJ: Was there any cultural events any other, besides just -- were they just kind of discussing different things? Was there any music or anything -- PDR: Oh, yes. One of the things that marked -- and for me, marked a difference [01:12:00] between the other kind of organizing events I had been -- everything in Lincoln Park that we did was cultural. We had music and bright colors and banners. People did art and sang. It was a time to use the arts to organize, to celebrate, to educate, to, you know, really bring people together and get them a sense of power and dignity. JJ: Now the Young Lords came from a gang, a street gang, that’s kind of clear that that’s where they came from. In fact, there was several youth groups in the community. And they kind of used the name, the gang, anyway, to their advantage, when they were being put down. But as they became [01:13:00] more political, you saw the transition come and take place. They didn’t take time to study before they [came out?], they just kind of went right from the beginning to the political movement. How did people react to that? Were they afraid of them? Or how did they react to the Young Lords? I mean, I’m sure that everything they did was not correct, there were some mistakes made, but how were people in generally been -- like in McCormick and some of the other [outside of that?], how did people feel about the Young Lords? Were they afraid of them, or --? PDR: Well, at McCormick, I think they were afraid -- it was clear that their building had been taken over. I mean, that was frightening. This is something new. Something challenging the authority of the seminary leadership, [01:14:00] yes, 27 �you know, that was scary to those at the seminary. And then here are these ragtag young people that are not -- don’t do everything in the proper way. Nevertheless, education had taken place already before they went in there, every meeting was -- you know, there’s a book learning and then there’s hands-on education, experiential education. And both were taking place, but taking place very rapidly. Not in the school setting, but, you know, as I said, every night I remember long into the night, having educated discussions [01:15:00] with ChaCha and others. JJ: Where did you sleep? Where could you sleep? Did you sleep, or --? PDR: I’m talking before we get to the Seminary, before we get to the Seminary. And then all the meetings at the Urban Renewal office, at Concerned Citizens office, at the Young Lords’ headquarters -- meetings were taking place all over, all the time, many. And these were experiences for educa-- were educating the Young Lords very, very rapidly. By the time we get to the Seminary, there was quite a sophisticated understanding of what was happening in that community. [01:16:00] And there were some people that had joined the Young Lords, like Luis Cuza, that were college educated. And Luis continued the education on a daily basis with the Young Lords. They were being educated by the attorneys who were representing them on various issues, for various events and actions. So education was constantly taking place. But yeah, they were -- if you’re power is challenged, I don’t care who you are, you take a step back. You’re afraid. You, you know, want to react strongly. I mean, you [01:17:00] don’t just accept somebody challenging your position. And that’s what was happening at 28 �McCormick. But during the week that we were inside the Seminary, there was continual education that was taking place. And as you asked, cultural activities. Yes, cultural activities. And people slept in the administration building. We slept in the -- there was a lounge there, and people slept wherever there was a place to sleep. JJ: What about food? Where did get it? PDR: We went -- we had groups that were going outside and getting food, and we had people bringing food in to us, and so forth. I remember, I left -- those of us who were -- [01:18:00] some of us were more mobile. JJ: So some people (inaudible) -- PDR: Because we were white and -- (laughs) So some of us could move in and out more easily. JJ: Where was the police in all of this? PDR: The police -- well, actually the Seminary, I think, wanted to handle most of it themselves. They didn’t call the police, which was a tribute to the Seminary. I mean, they could have locked us all up for a long time. But again, and this was our correct assessment about going into the Seminary, rather than to DePaul University or to Children’s Memorial Hospital, that the [01:19:00] Seminary claimed that they were training people for ministry, and that they supported justice and equality for all. And so now there’s a group of people that’s demanding that they act on that. And they chose not to call the police, because it would really show up the contradictions. And they negotiated. It took several days for them to agree to negotiate with us. But they negotiated, and as I said, 29 �our demands increased from what they had originally been. But we also agreed to compromises in terms of how much money. [01:20:00] And I think that the Seminary also -- the Seminary leadership also realized that this was time -- that these were critical issues in the community. Everything that we were asking for was a very serious and critical need among people in the community. And, you know, it may have taken them a few days, but that’s all it took them to make agreements with us. Later, I learned from a pastor that they put some other things in place that most of us weren’t even aware of. They set up a fund for the Puerto Rican community to study [01:21:00] at the Seminary, if they chose to. And there were young Puerto Ricans that took advantage of that, and one became a pastor. I don’t know, there may have been more, but one I know became a pastor as a result of that. So, you know, they went a step further than some of the things we’d even been demanding. JJ: So it impacted them, the students, (inaudible). PDR: The students, the students were definitely impacted. And I think it probably impacted their ministries down the road. I mean, I don’t have contact with any of the people that were students at the Seminary at that time. But it would be very interesting in these interviews that [01:22:00] you’re doing if you could -JJ: Touch base. PDR: -- yeah. If you talk to some of them, if we could find them, locate them. I think that other significant things that took place with the Young Lords and really helped to build the movement were the murder of Bruce and Eugenia Johnson. And the murder of Manuel Ramos. 30 �JJ: Let’s start with the murder of Bruce Johnson and Eugenia Johnson. Could you just talk about what happened? PDR: Well, Bruce -- or, one morning the children of Bruce and Eugenia Johnson were found [01:23:00] wandering on the street outside the parsonage. The parsonage was next door to the Armitage Avenue church, Armitage, and Dayton -- am I right? JJ: I just -- they had another parsonage, I think it was on Seminary or Kenmore, or something like that. I’m not sure of the street. That’s where it actually took place. Because the parsonage we were using was part of the church for our office (inaudible). PDR: Yeah, but the children were found wandering outside the parsonage of the -JJ: The church? PDR: No no no no no, not the parsonage of the church, but where the family was living. JJ: Where they were living. PDR: Yeah. JJ: I think it was -- PDR: And actually there were several parsonages over there. JJ: Right. I think they lived at the Seminary, come that time. PDR: Yeah. Well, it turns out that Bruce [01:24:00] and his wife, Eugenia, had been murdered in their bed, stabbed countless times. It was a very bloody situation. And the police, of course, were called in to be -- and an investigation began. But an investigation was never -JJ: I think they were discovered by the mailman, or something like that, or --? 31 �PDR: By one of the neighbors. JJ: Oh, was it one of the neighbors? PDR: The neighbors found the children. JJ: Okay. PDR: I know mailmen may also have discovered them, you know, I’m not sure. But I know one of the neighbors found the children wandering outside and went to their home and [01:25:00] found them. And I don’t know about the mailman, he may also have. But it was a horror and a shock to everyone. You know, immediately, people said that it happened because they had allowed the Young Lords Organization to use the church as their center for organizing and operating, and so on. JJ: Some people said that the Young Lords may have done it. Some people say they (inaudible). PDR: I have never heard that. JJ: You have never heard it. PDR: I have never heard that. JJ: So it was -- what you heard was that people thought they’d be -- or they gave them permission to begin. PDR: Right. And there were different things. [01:26:00] Some people said it was some folks from Lincoln Park Conservation Association, other people members of the -it might have been members of the congregation that were opposed to his giving the Young Lords space. The United Methodist Church never really did a thorough investigation. And the police did not do a thorough investigation of 32 �what happened. Everything sort of ended. It was closed. But the death caused the movement to increase by -- dramatically overnight. There were [01:27:00] masses of people at the funeral, spilling out of the church upstairs, downstairs, in the streets. Massive demonstration. So the death was not something that caused the movement against Urban Renewal to stop, it caused it to grow. And it also brought greater support for the Young Lords Organization as well. JJ: How did they feel then, where Bruce Johnson was part of that same movement, because the Young Lords actually got taking over that church, right? There was a takeover of the church? PDR: There were -- most people felt that Bruce had given the [01:28:00] space to the Young Lords. JJ: Okay. So he actually was a supporter of the Young Lords. PDR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. PDR: There was primarily a Cuban congregation that was members of the church at the time, it’s an older European congregation. And it had been on the edge of doing some creative things, supporting issues and addressing issues in the community, and so forth before this, and continued after that. JJ: Wasn’t that a member of the North Side Cooperative Ministry? PDR: Yes, he was. JJ: So he was also (inaudible). PDR: They were -- yeah. He was -- the Armitage Avenue church had been a member since the previous pastor had been there, Gerry Forshey, I think, was there 33 �immediately before. Yes. [01:29:00] And he was in support of the movement for decent housing for those who lived in the community. My husband, later became my husband, Jim Reed, they had the -JJ: The Reverend Jim Reed? PDR: The Reverend Jim Reed had the sermon at the funeral service for Bruce Johnson, and talked about this as a symbol of what this whole movement meant in the community. This is a short sermon, as his sermons always were, and very [01:30:00] powerful. Lifted Bruce and Eugenia up for their support of the struggle in the community. So take over maybe from your perspective, but he also, from other people’s perspective, gave the space to the Young Lords to operate. JJ: And actually, the very next day we were already seeing that there was a cooperation between the Young Lords and the church. PDR: Yeah. JJ: We were seeing that the very next day. It was -- PDR: There were members of the church that supported it, and others who didn’t. JJ: Right. PDR: But that -JJ: And he could have called the police, and he didn’t. I mean, he refused to call the police, and the Young Lords even the congregation (inaudible) PDR: Right. Right. But the death of Bruce and Eugenia [01:31:00] caused great consciousness of large numbers of people to grow overnight. You said, “Well, we didn’t have education” -- all of these events brought dramatic leaps in education overnight. And, I mean, part of it was the times, and the demands of 34 �people everywhere for first voice, people speaking for themselves. The Native American community was demanding it. The African American community was demanding it. Now the Puerto Rican community is demanding it. People all over demanding first voice, speaking for our self, self-determination. And in this case it was self-determination around housing ownership, [01:32:00] quality of housing, quality of the community. So overnight when Bruce and Eugenia were murdered, people in all the surrounding communities had a consciousness awakening. Initially, my contact was with young Puerto Rican men, but when this event happened, I remember all the young women that were partners, wives, friends, just hangers on, and the Puerto Rican community coming out, getting political consciousness, starting to take action, supporting their guys, [01:33:00] doing things independently. The whole movement for childcare and for healthcare that was raised at McCormick was raised by young women. So there was just this incredible political awakening that I say took place overnight -- it felt like that, you know. But weeks, months, things were happening very, very fast. The neighborhood’s West division, I remember there was a period of time when Obed Lopez didn’t really have too much to do with what was happening in Lincoln Park. But with these events, especially when Manuel Ramos was killed, Obed joined his forces together [01:34:00] with those -- and West Division and Lincoln Park joined forces together. JJ: What do you remember of the Manuel Ramos issue, the case, Manuel was killed. Manuel was killed. Do you know what was taking place with the membership 35 �and all that? I mean, what do you (inaudible) -- in the community, how did they respond to his death? PDR: They were angry. It was an anger -- it was different Bruce and Eugenia. That was shock. This was just a deep, deep hurt and anger, not just among young people but among their parents and, you know, it was -- it took things to a new level. And [01:35:00] the march -JJ: Were you at the church, or at the funeral? PDR: I was at the funeral. JJ: Can you describe that? I mean, how did they -- PDR: What I remember more than the funeral was the funeral march. JJ: Okay. PDR: You know, I believe we had 10,000 people. Maybe more. People came out of their houses to say, “Enough’s enough.” JJ: And he was killed by an off-duty police officer, James Lamb. PDR: Yeah. JJ: And so he was killed by an off-duty police officer, [01:36:00] but that had been happening to the Puerto Ricans, and it was -- PDR: It was a common experience, right. JJ: That’s where we wanted to bring that up then. PDR: Right. Yeah, the older generation, Puerto Rican generation came out, as well as -- there were people from other communities that joined. The Italian community, the people from all walk-- from all the ethnic joined in. Of course, the main was the Puerto Rican community, but it was a family affair, family protest, you know, 36 �“We’re not taking this anymore.” And I think when that march took place -- up to this point, the City of Chicago wasn’t really frightened. Mayor Daley [01:37:00] wasn’t (audio cuts out), I think this frightened him, because it was very large and it represented families, and it represented the men of the Puerto Rican community as well. And connections were also made with many other communities. The march itself was -- the other marches that we had had, the events that we had had with music and banners and so forth were uplifting. The Manuel Ramos march, I remember to be a solemn, much more solemn and serious affair. [01:38:00] I’m getting tired. (break in audio) PDR: But the movement on Lincoln Park is just something that had to be done. I mean, it was a situation that presented itself, the utmost inequality, extreme oppression, the thought of moving out, 70,000, 100,000 poor and working class people to be replaced by people who had wealth and influence. I recall a meeting at Waller High School, which is now Lincoln Park High School -JJ: (inaudible) PDR: And at that time, we had to meet at the school, because it could hold [01:39:00] a thousand people. And by that time, the movement in the community, both for and against Urban Renewal, had grown to such a point, so many people were involved, so many people had positions on things that we had to have, if you could imagine a community needing in a place that housed a thousand people. And I recall at one point saying, in the last few years, 70,000 people have been moved out. And people from Lincoln Park Conservation Association booed me. 37 �And I said, “It’s a matter of simple mathematics. You go down Larrabee, Vine Street, all the streets in the neighborhood that have been bulldozed, you know how many buildings were on each street. You know how many stories were [01:40:00] in the buildings. Just those kinds of things alone, just start adding the figures up, and you come to these numbers. I said, “Just mathematics and science, that’s what it is. Plus all the buildings that have been renovated that families have lost, that were large, and families that are there now. So the whole movement for people owning and controlling their land and their housing was something, to me, that my background, being raised as a Catholic and living as a Christian, that said people have to have a voice in their life, have to control their lives, have to determine what happens to [01:41:00] themselves. JJ: This was -- PDR: So Cha-Cha says that I was an inspiration, to me it was just something that had to be done, that when you see a situation of extreme injustice like that, you’ve got to stand up and take action. And that’s what I’ve tried to do my whole life. So I would say that this is a young man that saw the same thing I saw, and was hungry for information. I had a few jumps on him, I had seen the plan, and I had heard other people talk about what was going on, and I had joined the movement for just housing, you know, a year or so before he had. All I was doing was conveying the same information that I received [01:42:00] from others. So it was a matter of passing on information to enable people to determine their lives and futures. 38 �JJ: But it’s interesting, you didn’t just see the -- it’s a question of housing or urban renewal, it’s always a question of voice? Is that what you’re saying? PDR: A voice, self-determination, that everybody -- everybody has a right to determine their own life and future. Or should have a right. JJ: And you didn’t see the community as having a voice? Is that what you’re saying, or --? PDR: No, a voice -- the majority of the people in the community did not -JJ: What do you mean by “a voice”? PDR: A voice means that you have a right to speak for yourselves about where you live, how you live, how much you pay for your housing. That had to have been taken away from people [01:43:00] by a plan that had been put together independent of the people who lived there. JJ: A plan that had been put together -- PDR: By the City of Chicago, by the institutions that bought Urban Renewal there, by those who were going to make a great profit from it, realtors. We used to talk all the time about Rubloff, and Draper & Kramer were the big profit makers off of this situation. And I’m sure there were many, many others. But -JJ: Draper & Kramer, they were big developers in Lincoln Park also? PDR: Draper & Kramer and Rubloff were the two big ones that were vocal and out in front at the time the organizing was going on in the ’60s and early ’70s, yeah. I’m sure there were many others, but those were the two at that time. JJ: Now this was [01:44:00] a plan that was devised in -- at City Hall. What was the benefit to -- how did you see the benefit to the political machine at that --? 39 �PDR: Well, the Urban Renewal Program, if you remember, was developed -JJ: It’s -- PDR: -- after World War II to -- as a way to -- right after the war, people moved out of cities and moved to suburbs. There were a lot of suburbs burgeoning all around Chicago and around cities all over the country. And so there’s a way to bring people back to the city to create a tax base that could pay for -- or a larger tax base that could pay for all [01:45:00] the needs of a city. What better place to do that than in the most desirable areas of the city, along the lake. I don’t know if you remember, we used to talk about -- they want to do this because it’s near the lake, it’s near transportation lines, it’s near downtown. So this was one of the areas that was seen as prime real estate, prime real estate for a wealthier community that would help to increase the tax base for the City of Chicago. So this was conceived in downtown, inside closed doors. And I’m sure nobody thought there was gonna be the uprising of the people [01:46:00] against the plan. Who would even know about the plan? It was a secret plan, it was something that only the institutions and those that were gonna benefit knew about. But thankfully, there were some ministers and others that had a conscience that started telling the larger community about what was going on. JJ: Okay, so now you’re looking at the Young Lords, and a movement at Lincoln Park, and the Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park. And who -- I mean, many people think that that’s just a small isolated movement. But, I mean, it was just like more -- a lot of people don’t know who was involved in it, wasn’t there different people that were involved, in this Young Lord’s movement? 40 �PDR: Well, first of all, I mentioned [01:47:00] that there was the North Side Cooperative Ministry. Now that was -- represented all the mainline churches. JJ: What was in the church? PDR: The Catholic churches, the Methodist churches, the Presbyterian, Episcopal, Baptist, Lutheran. [David Dore?] was the president at that time; I forget which of the churches he was at. But working class people go to church. So it was really representation of large sections of the community, many of which were going to be put out of the community because they could no longer afford -- it might have been the rehabs, it might [01:48:00] have been the taxes. It might have been the fact that, you know, the area they had their small business was planned for a different kind of business development. So the parishioners, which represented thousands of people, were going to be removed from the community. There were sections of people that were not represented by the churches. But tenants, the people that lived in the three and five flat buildings along all the main streets in the community, in many cases they were “unchurched,” so Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park started organizing those people. And it was, again, a wide mixture [01:49:00] of people. There was, as I said, Appalacian that lived on certain of the streets. Gypsies -- nobody could organize the gypsies, they were not organizable. But, they did -- I recall there was one area where we had set up a block corporation for people to put money into their own block to rehab. The gypsies on that block participated. That was the only place I know that they did. But that was up north as well. And then, of course, the Puerto Rican community, represented through initially the Young Lords, but then families joined forces as 41 �well, in the southern part of the community, [01:50:00] there was an African American community that was represented really by Neighborhood Commons, although Neighborhood Commons was more diverse as well. There were many Puerto Rican families that participated with Neighborhood Commons Association as well. JJ: Some of the businesses? What about the Tap Root Pub I heard -- what was that about? PDR: The Tap Root Pub was on Larrabee Street. Harley Budd was the owner of the Tap Root Pub. He was very much engaged in trying to keep businesses in the community. He had a business on Larrabee Street. The plan called for the demolition of all properties along there. In fact, some of the houses were tenants still there, really didn’t have a voice. I recall there were two [01:51:00] buildings that they started -- they brought the bulldozers, too, while people were still living in the houses. They woke up in the morning and there were bulldozers there. Of course the families had to move out very quickly. And I believe the Red Cross helped with the placement of the families in those buildings. But Harley Budd held out for the Tap Root Pub. Eventually, his building went also. One of the things that happened with the business -- with homes and businesses is that -JJ: What do you mean he held out? PDR: He -- all the other buildings around him were torn down. But the Tap Root Pub stood as a symbol of his defiance that he, as a business owner, had a right to be there, and [01:52:00] actually, his business built during those years. It was very successful. But eventually, he also gave way, too. I’m not sure if they gave him - 42 �- for him, no money was adequate to replace his business. But what eventually happened, I’m not quite sure. I lost contact. The plan was to build townhouses in that whole area there along Larrabee Street, for blocks. And the land stood vacant for quite a number of years. Well, that was also the land, that Poor People’s Development Corporation made a proposal on. [01:53:00] JJ: What happened at City Hall with that? Do you know? PDR: It never got to City Hall, it was at the Conservation Community Council level. There were two corporations that submitted plans for -JJ: Can you recall the other corporation? PDR: I don’t remember the name of the corporation, but I do remember that we brought in research about the other corporation. They had not developed properties in the City of Chicago. But they had developed on lands in other communities. And one of the communities was Aurora, where I had grown up. And there was a city dump to the south of where I had grown up that had been covered over. Before the land [01:54:00] had adequate time to settle, this company had built on the land. People invested their whole life savings in buying the homes that this company had built housing on. And within a year or so, there were gaps in the foundations a foot wide. These were all working class people that had -- this was it. This was their life that they had put into purchasing these properties. So we brought that information to bear, as well as testimonies from some of the people who lived in the buildings, in the homes. But they were given the contract to build, [01:55:00] rather than Poor People’s Development Corporation. 43 �JJ: And Poor People’s Development Corp, what about Ira Bach? Was he part of the Poor People’s Development Corporation? PDR: Ira --? JJ: Bach? PDR: No. JJ: He wasn’t? He used to be the head of the Department of Urban Renewal before, something like that. Did he support a plan, or --? PDR: No. JJ: Oh, he didn’t? Okay. PDR: No. The architect that did -JJ: Howard Alan. PDR: Howard Alan. Thank you. I should not forget that. No, he was a staunch ally. JJ: Howard Alan? PDR: Yeah. JJ: Yeah. Where does he come from? I know he’s still on Armitage, but how did he -- PDR: Is he still on Armitage? JJ: Yeah. I didn’t (inaudible), he’s still in the same place. [01:56:00] PDR: Really? JJ: Yeah. I’m going to interview him after this thing. He went to our camp (inaudible). He’s very much in support of the Young Lords. PDR: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: I don’t know how he (inaudible). 44 �PDR: He was recommended to us through -- I don’t remember now. But he -- I mean, he didn’t just appear. He had been working with us on housing issues. JJ: Housing issues. PDR: Yeah. JJ: But it’s okay, (inaudible). PDR: No no no, when you interview him, I would like to -JJ: Touch base with him? PDR: Yeah. JJ: Okay, (inaudible). PDR: Good. Good. I’m glad that you’re in touch with him. JJ: Any last thoughts, and then we’ll stop. PDR: The last thoughts are that this [01:57:00] movement, as large as it was, could still be broken by the City of Chicago, because we weren’t -- there had been lots of people’s movements in the United States. But they weren’t land-based movements in cities. This was a whole new development. It was happening not just in Chicago, but in St. Louis, and many other places around the country. We weren’t sophisticated enough to -- we knew that we had to connect with other movements for independence. So we joined forces in the Rainbow Coalition with the Black Panther party, and the Young Lords movement grew, expanded [01:58:00] to New York, a Young Lords party in New York City. But the housing movement, we really needed to join forces with people all over the United States that were fighting the same fight that we were fighting for control of the land that we lived on. But we weren’t sophisticated enough. We didn’t know the power of 45 �the federal government to break the movement by declaring everybody communists. We didn’t know the power of the City of Chicago to arrest everyone. And when that didn’t happen. to start flooding the community with drugs again, heavy, heavy drugs. JJ: So you feel that (inaudible)? PDR: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. JJ: And you’re worried, and you think that -- is it your basis? PDR: What is my -- what is my basis? [01:59:00] JJ: Your basis for that, yeah. Where do you get that from? PDR: When you were in jail and others were in -- then when you went underground, the young people that were left in the community were high all the time. And, I mean, I had seen it early when guys were shooting up on the corner of Halsted and Dickens. And now here it is again, and it wasn’t just a matter of depression, because, you know, the leadership is temporarily not visible. The accessibility to drugs was very great. And it wasn’t [02:00:00] just there, it was in -JJ: (inaudible)flooded with drugs PDR: It was in all the communities where there had been strong political movements, it happened. JJ: In the United States? PDR: Oh, I’m talking Chicago. I don’t know about the others, but I’m sure it happened to other -JJ: In all the communities that were active with drugs between -- 46 �PDR: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, there was the -- there was lack of sophistication. We had -- didn’t build into what we were doing, security to protect the leadership, to transition to new leadership, to -- we didn’t know. It was new. We were ignorant. We didn’t have national coalitions established. We weren’t in a [02:01:00] position to have, you know, federal legislation, in opposition to the federal legislation it was operating in the neighborhoods at the time for Urban Renewal, how we -- so the lessons to be learned, as I have thought about this over the years, if they can kill a movement as large as the movement was in Lincoln Park, and on people’s issues in the City of Chicago at that time, after King’s death, then the message to people now is, you have to have coalitions with everyone who is engaged in the same struggle, nationally, internationally. [02:02:00] It’s our -- still, even in this age of technology and so on, people are strong in numbers. And we have to continue to build new leadership, new leadership, new leadership. JJ: So, what you’re trying to say is, besides whatever we need to be doing, it was (inaudible). You’re also saying that you feel that what we did in Lincoln Park, was that a defeat, or was -- PDR: No. I think it was a victory in that we trained -- we brought to consciousness thousands of people. We lost the struggle in that community for [02:03:00] quality housing for poor and working-class people. But we -- but a consciousness was built among thousands of people, about what their rights are, about the fact that they, if they choose, can have the power to speak for 47 �themselves. That they can join together with other people to make change. So that was significant. And that was a win. JJ: A win. So the win was, we gave them a voice. PDR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So I will end it right there. The voice. END OF VIDEO FILE 48 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b93a0076c8df2857030dd8f90e9d25df.mp4 d419cdf40627a32d9a07af5066811aac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Patricia Devine-Reed vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Patricia Devine-Reed era una de los líderes del Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park (después se cambiaron a los Concerned Citizens Survival Front of Lincoln Park), que fueron el primer grupo en protestar los planes de reconstrucción ciudadana en parte de que los Puertorriqueños y Afroamericanos iban ser desalojados de sus casas y luego subieran el precio de la renta de las nuevas residencias. Señora Devine-Reed felizmente recluto a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez para uno de los reuniones del Department of Urban Renewal en 1969. Las reúnes probaron ser muy importantes por muchas razones. Señor Jiménez tomo in grupo de jóvenes a esta reunión. Cuando vieron la muestra de cómo desalojado de los Puertoriquenos y pobres de Lincoln Park y escucharon como los agentes y promotores de Lincoln Park Conservation Association describieron sus planes para el vecindario, los jóvenes estaban furiosos y revolcaron el edificio en donde estaban haciendo la reconstrucción. Esto resulto en cerrando el edificio por unos meses por la destrucción. La señora Devine-Reed también ayuda los pobres que están desalojados de sus casa en Lincoln Park, con la organización, Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition en donde el señor Jiménez era presidente. Una artista y conservadora, Señora Devine-Reed continua soportar los derechos de mujeres, el civil y la comunidad en Chicago. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Pobreza--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Devine-Reed_Patricia Title A name given to the resource Patricia Devine-Reed video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devine-Reed, Patricia Description An account of the resource Patricia Devine-Reed was the leader of the Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park (later called the Concerned Citizens Survival Front of Lincoln Park), the first group to protest urban renewal plans on the grounds that Puerto Ricans and African Americans were being displaced from their homes and priced out of the renewing neighborhood. Ms. Devine-Reed also helped to organize the broad-based Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition to try to save the poor from being forced out of their homes in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Poverty--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9cb448f171337692a0da6e3eadd6e6a3.pdf 697dfb952be3a4e459cc23961e3a99ca PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Primitivo Cruz Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/27/2012 Biography and Description Primitivo Cruz is a Young Lord at heart who studied at De Paul University. He has researched and written several poems and papers on the Young Lords. Mr. Cruz performed several of his poems and songs at the Young Lords 40th Anniversary, celebrating the official founding of the Young Lords on September 23, 1968. Most of his work is political by nature, focusing on the Puerto Rican experience, the right to Puerto Rican self-determination, as well as the rights of new immigrants. He work celebrates the efforts of many different leaders and movements. Mr. Cruz is well-known across Chicago and beyond as an artist, writer, and activist.In 2011, Mr. Cruz was involved in the Occupy Wall Street or Chicago Occupation demonstrations. He discusses this work, as well as that of his wife, Diana Cruz, who is an actress in the Vida Bella Ensemble, a writer in the Neighborhood Writing Alliance, and a member of the Chicago Puerto Rican Community Chorus. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you can give me your name and where you were born? PRIMITIVO CRUZ: Okay, sure. Primitivo Cruz is my name and I was born in Chicago, Illinois back in 1977. JJ: What month? PC: July. JJ: July, 1977. PC: Yeah, July 10th, 1977 to be exact, yeah. JJ: Okay. And your parents, when did they first come to Chicago? PC: Yeah, my dad came... JJ: And their names (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). PC: Sure. My dad is also named Primitivo Cruz and he came to Chicago back in 1967 and my mom (Spanish) [Beba Ramos?] came in 19, I believe it was 1974, [00:01:00] yeah. JJ: And so, what town are they from in Puerto Rico and where did they come? PC: My father’s from a town called Las Piedras, which is like on the northeast side of the island and my mom is from Peñuelas which is like southwest, it’s right next to Ponce. JJ: Okay. (audio cuts out) PC: Okay. So, I have a brother and his name is Jose Cruz and then I have a sister from my father’s previous marriage and her name is [Marta Hinojosa?], so yeah. 1 �JJ: Okay. So, you grew up in -- your father came to what neighborhood first? [00:02:00] PC: When my father came to Chicago, he lived in the Lakeview area by Wrigley Field. Yeah, so... JJ: What street did he live on? PC: Cornelia and Rita. JJ: And Rita? PC: Yeah. And that’s where -- my uncle lived there first, so he... JJ: What was your uncle’s name? PC: Jose Manuel Cruz. And he still lives and he no longer lives in Chicago, he lives in Las Piedras again. Yeah, so when my father first came, he met his first wife and they had a child and then they separated. And then shortly after that, that’s when he met my mom. [00:03:00] JJ: What kinda work did he do when he first came? PC: My dad was a factory welder, he used to work for this company called Production Metal Company, yeah. And so, what my father would do back in those days is that he would go back and forth from Chicago to Puerto Rico a lot. Because he was a young guy and I mean, he was basically making money to build a house for my grandmother in the same site where they had a wooden house. So, that house actually now belongs to my father. JJ: In Las Piedras. PC: Yes. In Las Piedras, yeah. 2 �JJ: So, that was his mission, basically to come here and to make some money and go back? [00:04:00] PC: Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I mean, as soon as you come -- I mean, it seems to me that back in those days it was actually a lot easier to find work and kinda leave and come back. Based on what my father has told me about those days where -- and since Chicago back in those days was a very industrial town, so you had a lot of factories around. So, my father was able to go ahead and just go back and forth for a while. JJ: Okay, what about your mother, what kind of work did she do? PC: My mom actually -- when my mom first came to Chicago, she was doing factory work as well by what was known back then as Comiskey Park where the [00:05:00] Chicago White Sox played. She used to work making screws and making nails. But as soon as I was born, my mom actually stopped working and she just stayed home until, I would say until the 1990s, actually like in ’96, that’s when I started college, so she felt like she should go ahead and work. JJ: And then what did she do then? PC: She took care of the elderly, so she would go to where they lived and she would cook, clean and do whatever it was that they needed. So that was known as a homemaker is what she did. JJ: Okay. And your father remained doing the same thing? PC: Yeah, my father was a factory welder for about 25 years, yeah. JJ: Okay. So, are they both in Puerto Rico now? PC: They live in Chicago as well. 3 �JJ: Oh, they’re living here now? PC: Yeah, they’re still here. JJ: Okay. Now, when was the first time that you heard about the Young Lords? PC: The first time I heard about the Young Lords was when I was at DePaul University as a student. I went to this presentation by... JJ: What were you studying there? PC: I was studying Latin American studies, just learning about the different Latin American countries and about Latinos in the United States as well. So, that’s [00:07:00] what I studied there. JJ: Okay, so you heard about him, you went to some kinda meeting you said? PC: Yeah, there was a presentation that a person by the name of Mervin Mendez, he was giving a presentation entitled “Latinos in Lincoln Park.” And that was the first time that I ever heard of the Young Lords. And I was really inspired by that, I mean, I subsequently met up with Mervin a couple of more times because I wanted to hear more about the Young Lords and what become about them, you know, because I had never heard of that. And I think what really got my attention was that [00:08:00] I knew about Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, the Black Panthers, but I had no idea that there was a Puerto Rican group that was very much patterned after the Black Panthers in that way. So, I mean that was really inspiring and just also the fact that it was a turf gang that transformed itself into a political organization just kind of -- one of the things that I kind of took from that is a lot of social change actually comes from the ground up like it’s just regular people that are kind of part of the street life and that are part of the [00:09:00] 4 �neighborhood. If you band together, you could do some great things. I mean, the Young Lords’ legacy, that’s basically something that we can still continue to this day. I mean, a lot of the same issues that the Young Lords fought back then are the same exact issues that we are fighting right now. I mean, gentrification is still there, but now we live further west on the North Side and they keep pushing people further west. And yeah, I mean, there have definitely been a lot of community initiatives. I was once a community organizer myself when I came out of college. [00:10:00] But one of the things that I found about that was that nonprofits are kind of tied to funding, and then you have to ask yourself, where is it that the comes from. And you realize that that comes from a lot of wealthy people that feel some sort of a guilt trip about what’s going on. But in terms of having a grassroots movement like that, I mean, I would love to see something like that again. People say that these are different times, but it’s kinda like that old cliché like [00:11:00] “The more things change then the more things stay the same.” So, it’s just that right now we’re just dealing with the same kinds of issues, but now we’re dealing with those for the west, you know. JJ: Now, you were fascinated not just with any group, but you were fascinated with the Black Panthers. Why so militant? PC: Because it’s a group of people that have kind of decided that they are no longer gonna just take whatever they get, and that they were gonna fight for social justice. And it’s just this whole thing of banding together to do something. JJ: But why do you feel that that that was necessary? [00:12:00] 5 �PC: Because I feel that power was not only just convincing people. Like a group like the Black Panthers is they were very confrontational when they actually needed to do that. And it is done by the very people that are being oppressed. So, I mean, that I feel was a very transformative experience for everybody, for those people that participated and even for [00:13:00] those people that just looked on or that came after, they actually leave that legacy of struggle for you to refer back to. JJ: So, did this come out of your life growing up in Chicago? Where did you grow up, what neighborhood did you grow up in? PC: I grew up in a couple of areas, but mainly Logan Square. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). What were some of the areas you grew up in? PC: Yeah, so it’s Logan Square, the West Humboldt Park area, Bucktown, Wicker Park, so, you know, maybe -- those were the areas. JJ: So grew up in Wicker Park too then. PC: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay, because Wicker Park no longer exists as a Latino community today or -did you grow up when it was changing? PC: Yeah, you know, I mean, [00:14:00] we moved there back in I believe it was 1987. So, that was actually the first time that I encountered gentrification, I was 10 years old. But of course, I didn’t know that term back then, but I knew that there was a very big difference between the new residents that lived there and the older people that were there like the longtime community people. 6 �JJ: What kind of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), what do you mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? PC: I mean, it’s just in terms of like you could definitely tell that the newer people that moved into the area were -- they had more money than the rest of us [00:15:00], you know. You would see ‘em leave for work and you would see ‘em dressed nice and they had the nice car and yeah, I mean they would build these humongous, humongous houses like right next to this old brick Chicago building, and so you knew that there was definitely a big difference between us and them, us, we were just working class folks. And by the way, my particular block was a very interesting block man, we had all kinds of people that lived in that block. We had... JJ: Which block was that, explain? PC: It’s the 1600 [00:16:00] block of Hermitage in Bucktown. Yeah, I mean, we had people from Poland, we had Mexicanos, some Puerto Ricans, we had -- man, I actually remember that we actually had a house where there were transvestite prostitutes and his pimp and all this. But then, you know, right next to those people you had like professionals and all of this, but they were just starting to come in around the late ‘80s or so. JJ: In the late ’80s? PC: Yeah. JJ: Okay. Had you heard what type of neighborhood before that, before the ‘80s? PC: Yeah, my father told me that [00:17:00] there were a lot of Puerto Ricans that actually lived there. There is a building right on the corner of Wabansia and 7 �Marshfield and there was a school across the street called Jonathan Burr School, that’s where I went to school for like the last five years of grammar school. But anyway, that particular building there, my father told me that a lot of people from Las Piedras lived in that building, which was very interesting. When my father tells me -- back in those days when my father would tell me that Puerto Ricans lived here or that Puerto Ricans lived there, I thought that he was full of it, you know, (laughs) because [00:18:00] when I go to these particular areas, there’s no Puerto Ricans to be found these days. But then that actually goes back to when I went to college, and I went to that presentation about Latinos in the Lincoln Park area. I mean, that brought up a whole conversation about the fact that Puerto Ricans lived all over Chicago at one point and that we were actually the largest Latino group in the city of Chicago. We meaning -- Puerto Ricans came, we started coming around the 1950s. [00:19:00] I mean, we may not be the longest living group in the city, but we were definitely a big group. JJ: Okay, so you grew up in Logan Square you said, and Bucktown and some of these other communities. PC: Yeah. JJ: And so, when you were growing up in Logan Square, when you say Logan Square, what streets were you... PC: Let’s see, Logan Square, I used to live on Kimball by Armitage, Hamlin and -- JJ: Fullerton? PC: -- Fullerton, and most recently, Cortland and Spaulding. Yeah. 8 �JJ: And what do you remember, what year did you [00:20:00] start remembering things? PC: Kimball... JJ: What was it like growing up there? PC: Yeah, Logan Square, we had our, you know... JJ: What type of population? PC: What type of population. I mean, there was Puerto Rican, Mexican and a little bit of African American. Yeah. JJ: And what do you remember? PC: What do I remember about Logan Square, man, it’s just... JJ: I mean, who were your friends and what (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? PC: Yeah, well look, the thing about me is that I actually lived a very sheltered life. So, my father wouldn’t let us go out and just play with other kids. JJ: Why was that, I mean why... PC: You know, like [00:21:00] I mean, I feel like that was more of an overprotectiveness. JJ: But why were you being protected, I mean from who? PC: I was being protected from the other kids -- see, one of the things about me is -one, is that I used to wear these thick, these big thick glasses and I have always had a speech impediment. So, my father didn’t want me to talk to other kids or play with other kids because they were gonna make fun of me. And yeah, that was pretty much true. When I was in school, yeah, I would get made fun of a lot. 9 �And my brother, he didn’t have all that, but there was still this thing of [00:22:00], “I have to protect my kids,” and that’s the way we were raised. JJ: Okay, so with you, it had to do with the speech impediment -- PC: Yeah. JJ: -- and it had to do with the glasses. PC: Yeah. JJ: But your brother, you said he had to be protected too. PC: Yeah. JJ: Was there anything in the neighborhood that you had to be protected from? PC: Well, you know, they were definitely scared of gangs there. In those days, yeah, we definitely had gangs. But to be perfectly honest with you, when gangbangers would look at me, it was no big deal because I was just a nerdy kid with big glasses, so, “He’s part of the neighborhood,” you know what I mean, like I [00:23:00] wasn’t a threat. But things do go on in the street, so he was basically trying to protect us from a lot of the gang violence. And yeah, I mean, I remember one time, me and my brother were playing catch in the alley and my father was there, and we see one of the neighborhood kids man, oh, and he was one of the few Puerto Ricans that lived in the area at that time. (audio cuts out) running down the alley and then we heard this car screeching tires and then we see it and then it comes straight down, you know, just it comes [00:24:00] straight down the alley and me and my brother and my father had to scatter and just move to the side because they were trying to run the kid over. We saw things like that. We saw kids get jumped and all that kind of stuff, we saw fights. One 10 �thing that we never saw there in that particular area, but we saw later was we saw -- was that we didn’t see any shootings even though we would hear about that. But when I lived in Bucktown, we didn’t see any of that. JJ: With cars chasing [00:25:00] people and -- PC: Yeah, those kinds of things, yeah. JJ: -- fist fights and stuff like that? PC: Yeah, yeah. But what is very interesting about that is that I would actually get into fights anyway, not with gang members but with kids that would tease me. I mean, you know, we all fought. JJ: Were they Puerto Rican or were they just... PC: You know what, one of them was, yeah. It’s such a small world because it turns out and I come to find this out, I don’t know, 20 something years later that his blood uncle who lives in Florida is my uncle too, but not by blood because he [00:26:00] got married to my aunt. (laughs) So, you know, it turns out that, I mean, we’re not blood related, but we have that connection. Since it was a predominantly Mexican area at that time, yeah, I mean, I used to get into fights with Mexican kids and stuff. And it wasn’t over that, but it was just over little things that I just got tired, you know, and I said, “You know what man, I’m gonna have to fight to get this person off my back,” you know what I mean, with my thick glasses and all. And if I got my butt kicked, then I got it kicked. But what was great about that was that that person would not bother you anymore. [00:27:00] (laughs) JJ: What about the rest of your -- you said you have a brother and a sister? 11 �PC: Yeah. JJ: How was their life growing up there in Bucktown? PC: In Bucktown, well my sister, we... JJ: Why do they call it Bucktown (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? PC: You know what, I heard something about goats, but I really don’t know (laughs) what the deal is with that. I just didn’t get into why they call it that. Yeah, I mean, I’m not really sure. But when it... JJ: It’s the area around from what street to what street? PC: You know what, generally speaking, man, I would say that it goes from -- and this is just me talking, you know what I mean, I don’t really know the official -- JJ: Boundaries, yeah. PC: -- boundaries of it. But I would say from like Armitage and like Western [00:28:00] to like North Avenue and then Ashland. But that’s a (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: So, like from Ashland to Western, from Armitage to North Avenue? PC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Okay, so that was Bucktown, okay. So, you said your brothers and sisters, what was their life like? PC: Yeah, well when it comes to my sister, I mean father lost contact with her years ago and he didn’t know where she was. So, we actually found her back in ’97, yeah. But in terms of my brother, I mean... JJ: So, are you in contact with her now? PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 12 �JJ: And what do you mean you found her? PC: Let’s see, I found her on the internet. [00:29:00] JJ: You told your father. PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: What he say? PC: Oh well, he sent for her to come so that she could visit and so that she could meet us and everything. JJ: And you’ve been in contact ever since. PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: Okay, so your brother, what about him, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? PC: Yeah, me and him grew up together and I think that he went through a lot of the same experiences that I went through. Yeah, I mean we basically grew up the same exact way. And he probably sees things differently than I do, meaning that he probably has his own story about things. But yeah, [00:30:00] there’s not much to say -- I mean, one of the things about him is that he was more active in terms of -- let’s see, like I really wanted to play baseball when I was a kid, but, you know, since I had the thick glasses and it was dangerous and blah, blah, blah, I couldn’t do it. But my brother, he got to play and all of that, so it was just different. So, I kinda had to live those things through him, just kinda cheer him on and just do that. JJ: So, he was on a team and... PC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: A neighborhood team or -- 13 �PC: Yeah, yeah. He used to play in this park called Churchill Field which is on Damen Avenue [00:31:00] and [Bloomingdale?] I think it is. It’s right by Cortland there. Now they don’t use it as a baseball diamond anymore, now it’s a park for dogs. (laughs) Yeah, and it’s a lot nicer than back then. JJ: For the dogs (inaudible). PC: Yeah. (laughs) JJ: [They were?] against dogs. PC: I have a dog myself [and everything?]. JJ: But it’s nicer you said (inaudible). PC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a nicer... JJ: Were there any community groups at all working with the youth at all at that time or any organizations that you remember? PC: Yeah, I mean, I remember that there was BUILD, which is still there. [00:32:00] JJ: What kind of work did BUILD do? PC: As far as I know, that was what they called street intervention. So, they had people come to the schools and talk to us about the whole gang life and drugs and all that stuff, which I think is really the best way to, I don’t know, to inform kids about the whole gang culture, you know what I mean? I don’t think it’s enough to say, “Don’t join gangs.” But I think it’s also important to know why they existed in the first place and what they have become now. It's just really important to kinda draw distinctions between both. [00:33:00] Because based on what I know now, the whole gang life wasn’t necessarily a bad thing, sometimes it was something that you needed to do or that you needed to be a part of. 14 �JJ: Where did you get the knowledge and why do you feel that way? PC: Definitely when I found out about the Young Lords, that just changed my whole perception. And when I was a kid back in the 1980s, I mean, I actually -- and this was in the Humboldt Park area, north -- Monticello is where I used to live. My mom would come home from the grocery store and, she [00:34:00] had all these bags in this cart and they would all be standing right there and they would all see us and stuff, and they would actually help my mom with the groceries. So, those things kinda stay with you. JJ: Who’s they? PC: I’m not sure what -- I mean, I know that they were young kids that would just hang around and we just kind of assumed that they were a gang and that they were a crew. But I’m not sure which -- JJ: Group. PC: -- which group it was, which particular gang it was. But yeah, there was definitely fear instilled in us at home, you know, “Oh, you know, those guys are dangerous, blah, blah, blah and those guys are crazy and blah, blah, blah.” [00:35:00] And of course we would see things too, you know. But when it came to us, we were cool, we were part of the neighborhood, and we were little kids. We were also potential gang members anyway in their eyes. I know that -- my father told me that he would actually talk to them and just be cool with them, so that they would protect his car, you know. So, he would go and buy a six pack of beer and sit with them and talk to them and they said, [00:36:00] “You know what, yeah, you are fine.” But he was still afraid of it. We were still afraid of the violence and all 15 �of that. And things would definitely happen, I mean, we would see people bash people’s car windows in and stuff like that. And I remember seeing canes on the floor, canes, you now, that they would actually use and stuff like that. You definitely knew that there was an element of danger early on, yeah. JJ: And so, the gang was basically like part of living up -- and part of the neighborhood, they were connected, everybody knew them, I mean, everybody -- PC: Yeah. JJ: -- was connected one way or the other. Your father [00:37:00] would relate to them, but he didn’t want you to relate to them. PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: So, he was kind of like -- that was his way of protecting you by just kinda hanging out a little with all these are my kids and, you know. PC: Yeah. JJ: So, he could kind of relate to them, but he didn’t want you to be in that world? PC: Right, right. JJ: Is that how you see it or how did you see it? PC: I mean, yeah, that’s definitely part of it, that’s definitely part of what he was feeling, you know, that -- and then... JJ: And why do you think he understood their world better than you would understand? PC: Because I think my father wanted us to grow up and be a certain way and he didn’t want us to be like him. JJ: Oh, so he was like them -- 16 �PC: Yeah. JJ: -- in a way. He could relate to them. PC: Yeah, yeah. [00:38:00] And one of the things that was instilled in us is, “No, you guys are going to school. You guys are going to school. You guys can’t think about that. You guys -- no, not my kids, you all are not gonna go into that kinda lifestyle (inaudible).” But then he was also keeping us away from other kids that didn’t have anything to do with that. So, it was kinda like a very isolating experience. I mean, we did have friends in school, and we were allowed to kind of be with certain kids as long as my father knew their parents and [00:39:00] as long as he knew that they were okay. Then maybe we could play with them or whatever or be friends or whatever. But yeah, I mean, it was definitely tough for us to just kind of relate to what he... JJ: How did he know their parents, (inaudible) relate to their parents? PC: Let’s see, so the way that he met some of them was that when my brother played baseball, that’s how he would meet parents of kids. And that’s where he would make friends with them and just see if -- I mean, it’s just like anybody else, you might click with this person and you might not click with this other person for whatever reason. So, there was actually one [00:40:00] particular family where he's like, “You know what, those guys are cool, so you guys can hang out and play and blah, blah, blah.” But that was pretty much only one family. (laughs) And then we kind of -- we meaning the kids kinda like outgrew each other, you know, like we just had different interests after a while, so we just kinda stopped being friends I guess you could say. (laughs) Yeah. 17 �JJ: So, in school what kept you motivated in school, I mean, what... PC: Man, I don’t know what kept me motivated in school. (laughs) I really don’t man. I don’t know how I got as far as getting a bachelor’s degree, I really don’t. JJ: And you went to grammar school. PC: Yeah. JJ: Where did you go to high school? [00:41:00] PC: Lane Tech High School. JJ: Lane Tech? PC: Yeah. JJ: That’s a pretty good athletic school (inaudible). PC: I mean, it’s a pretty good academic school, yeah. JJ: Academic. PC: Yeah. JJ: What type of population and what years? PC: I went there from 1992 to 1996. And we had all kinds of students. That was a great experience for me because I got to meet all kinds of people, I mean all kinds of people, people that were from -- we had Greek people, Italian people, Syrian people, Indian people, other Latino groups like Guatemalans, Colombians, people from Africa, Ethiopia, [00:42:00] Nigeria, people from Asia. Well, you know, I just said India, but you know, people from Japan, China and people from Thailand, the Philippines. I mean, we had ‘em all. So, that was great to see that, and that was great to kind of be around all of those kind of groups because you realize how big the world is. I mean, that school was actually huge, there’s like 18 �4,000 students there. That was a good experience in that sense. But Lane Tech also had its problems though. JJ: Before we go into the problems, so it was very diverse, was it like a magnet school, how was it diverse? Was the community diverse or -- PC: Yeah, no. JJ: -- did people come [00:43:00] from all over? PC: Yeah, so people came from all over the city. What it was was that there was -they would actually pick kids that were like the top of their class and all of that. So, they would pick kids from all over Chicago, as long as you lived I believe it was north of Roosevelt Road and if you were in good academic standing and if you applied to the school, you could get into the school. So, yeah, I definitely worked my butt off the last two years of grammar school because I really wanted to get into that school and [00:44:00] I barely did, I barely got into the school. But, I mean, I was there for all four years and stuff. And that was definitely a tough experience too for different reasons. JJ: (inaudible) what sort of reasons? PC: Well, in terms of just -- I said earlier that there were about 4,000 students and that’s a huge student body. I mean, if you go inside of a classroom, it’s like 30, 40 kids sometimes. And so, the teacher couldn’t give you the proper attention all of the time and all that. And then of course there were some classes that you just didn’t want the teacher to even look at you (laughs) because you knew that [00:45:00] she -- I definitely felt like, what is it, like a small fish in a big pond 19 �there. Definitely felt like I wasn’t the smartest kid because you had some brains over there. JJ: (inaudible) you didn’t want the teacher to call on you? PC: Yeah man, when I had to read out loud especially, what a problem, what a problem, or just to ask me a question man, it was just really nerve racking, you know. Sometimes I think I would just... JJ: You laugh, I mean what were you thinking? PC: Just that sometimes you would prefer to be invisible. (laughs) When I was there, it was just like (audio cuts out) “I really don’t wanna rock the boat and I just wanna get through these four years and get outta [00:46:00] there,” you know. JJ: Yeah, okay. So, you got through the four years, now you’re going into DePaul? PC: Yeah. Well, and also, can I say something about when I was in grammar school? JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). PC: Yeah, yeah. Because what you were asking me about what -- JJ: Motivated? PC: -- motivated me to keep going in school too was, I think it was fifth or sixth grade, sixth grade, sixth grade we had 50 people in sixth grade at Jonathan Burr Elementary School. And we were picked by this foundation called the Polk Brothers Foundation, they have this program called the I Have a Dream Program. [00:47:00] And that particular program, they’re a nationwide program, I think it started in New York City. But it’s basically a group of very wealthy people got together and said to us, ‘If you guys get through high school, we can assist 20 �you financially through college.” So, during those years when we had a person assigned to us -- well, actually three, I think it was three, three people assigned to us to kind of make sure that we did go to college and that was there for us and all of this. So, I had that, and I don’t think a lot of kids had that. [00:48:00] You know what, it’s not that I don’t think, it’s that I know. So that is actually one of the main reasons why I got through high school and why I went through college, not only because I was promised money, but because we had people that were on us all of the time trying to get us to get better in school or they would actually take us to outings and stuff like that. We got to do some real cool things. JJ: What kinda outings? PC: We would go play basketball, we would do bowling, we would go see plays if we wanted to. If we were off from school, we would go and do like a [00:49:00] career day and we would go to a particular company, and they would talk about what they did and they had a lot of people of color there. I actually remember meeting Puerto Rican engineers, African American engineers, people that were professional. So, you know, we got to see people that looked like us that did those kinda jobs, you know, just to kind of say we’re just as smart as anybody else. I mean, that’s what I took from it. So, we got to see a lot of different things that I know that a lot of kids didn’t get to do [00:50:00] when they were growing up. And then there was definitely a struggle there between my father and the person that served as our -- JJ: Mentor? PC: -- mentor, yeah. 21 �JJ: What kinda struggle? PC: So, there were definitely a lot of clashes, like there were times when my father didn’t want me to go to this thing because, “I don’t really know him and I don’t know -- and I don’t know what’s gonna happen. And, you know, some of those kids are actually bad kids.” It was that kinda thing. And then he would call up and talk to my dad and he would try to [00:51:00] reason with my father and blah, blah, blah. And I think in the end, I feel like my father -- felt very challenged, but I think my father at that particular time -- I guess he got through my father, you know what I mean? Yeah, he didn’t like him to call, but he would still talk to him. And then my father would say things like, “Well, (Spanish),” about this, that and the other. Yeah, he is right about this, that and the other, but you would see a look on his face like, “Yeah, he's right, damn it.” (laughs) JJ: Why was your father so worried about your safety and protecting you? Did something happen to him or something that... PC: Well, first of all, I mean he definitely had a lot of things that – would happened to him, in terms of just getting into fights. When my father was young, just like any other young person, you like to go out and you like to have fun, you like to meet girls and blah, blah, blah. So, what he would do is that he would go to the neighborhood bars and hang out and dance, whatever, and whatever. So, you know, I mean, fights broke out, you know, folks get drunk, you know. JJ: At the neighborhood bar? PC: Yeah. JJ: With other Latinos? 22 �PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Folks would get drunk and blah, blah, blah and there -- and then if he was with his brother and if his brother got into a fight [00:53:00] of course my father had to go in... JJ: Was his brother in a gang or something? PC: No, no. JJ: But they were just bar fights? PC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: A lot of bar fights? PC: Yeah. JJ: What area was that? PC: Cornelia and Reta over there. JJ: Oh Cornelia, yeah. PC: But... JJ: Actually, there were a few gangs in there. PC: Then... JJ: A few bar gangs (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). PC: A few bar gangs? JJ: Yeah. PC: But they would actually go to Las Vegas Night Club on Armitage all the way west over there, to -- they would go to, man La Concha which I have no idea where that’s at anymore. Is it on North and California over there? JJ: (inaudible) yeah, a lot of people used to go there. 23 �PC: Habana San Juan. These are all things and names that I have heard him talk about. So, that’s where he would hang. [00:54:00] Oh, of course, he would go to the Aragon Ballroom. So, those are the kind of places where they would go to. JJ: And he would definitely get into fights. Had he ever gone to jail -- PC: Once or twice... JJ: -- do you know for a fight or a brawl or anything? PC: As far as I know, no, no. JJ: Okay, but he wouldn’t be into brawls. PC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s funny because in my wife’s family and in mine, they are very similar with that kind of stuff, like, “Oh, you can’t go out.” But with me, with me and my brother, it’s kinda weird because they usually would do that with girls, girls were the ones that were highly protected in that way. [00:55:00] Something else that comes to mind too is that both of my parents... JJ: (inaudible) there was a big gang epidemic later too, maybe that could be it too. PC: I mean, yeah. JJ: So, it wasn’t just the girls, it would be the youth. PC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know. What do you think? What do you think? PC: I mean, I definitely think that it’s a combination of things, it’s just not one thing. Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely there were a lot of gangs. JJ: I mean, you were there, so I’m asking you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). PC: Yeah, yeah. Part of it too that both of my parents, they -- well first of all, my mom wasn’t raised by her parents. My mom was raised by her grandparents. 24 �JJ: Why was that? PC: Because my grandfather and my grandmother split up. [00:56:00] And I forget how many kids they had, but it was way too many for just one parent to take care of. So, some were, I think three -- yeah, three were given to the grandparent and I think there were two that were given to this aunt. So, they were all kinda like split up, split from each other. And then as far as my father’s concerned, his father passed away when my dad was like nine or ten. So, my father wasn’t raised by his father. You could say that my father was raised by [00:57:00] one of my uncles, which was his older brother and he has always said that he really wasn’t raised by his mom and that he used to cause a lot of trouble with his mom. Because he actually left when he was 16. So, I don’t know if he was just afraid that we were gonna turn into him. (laughs) I’m not really sure what that is, I’m not really sure. I think part of it has to do with the fact that he really didn’t -- I mean, yes my uncle raised him, but he was only four years older than my father. So, my father didn’t have a real father figure. [00:58:00] So, maybe he just didn’t know how to do it, or he -- and so he just felt, “Let me -- “ but the flip side to that is that we spent a lot of quality time with my father anyway because we would practice playing ball. I was not part of a team, but we would practice together and just kind of do exercise. That’s kind of like the -- I mean, we definitely got to spend a lot more time than I think most kids our age. That’s why we can still speak Spanish, that’s why [00:59:00] I feel like we knew things about our family because my father would sit and just tell us stories about people, people that were blood related, but we didn’t know personally because they lived in Puerto 25 �Rico, and we live here. But he would make those people come alive for us. So, when we did finally get a chance to go see these people, it felt like I had known these people all of my life. We would see pictures of them and all of that. So, to me, it was just yeah, that’s this guy and that’s this girl and there’s this person and this is what happened and this is -- so [01:00:00] I mean, because they were like that, we pretty much grew up in our house, we didn’t go out and play with the other kids and all that. And then in my house you spoke Spanish or you -- you still speak Spanish in my house. So those things are there. So, you know, I mean, it’s not all bad and it’s not all good. JJ: And it kept you out of the gang. PC: It kept me out of a gang even though to be perfectly honest with you, I really don’t think that I would have joined the gang anyway and I don’t think that they woulda wanted me anyway, so -- (laughs) because I’m not a tough guy. JJ: You were in the same neighborhood, I mean(inaudible) -- PC: Yeah. JJ: -- but you were in the same neighborhood. But it kept you out of there and it got you to DePaul. PC: Mm-hmm. JJ: Do you think that’s what kept you outta there [01:01:00] or am I making an assumption? I wanna know what you think. PC: What kept me outta the gang culture? JJ: Did your father spending quality time with you, did that contribute to keeping you out of the gang culture? 26 �PC: I mean, I would say so. It’s really hard to tell because there was no desire within me ever to be part of the gang culture. JJ: And why is that? PC: Because of the way that it was -- one was it was based on what I was told and based on what I saw. I didn’t wanna get my head bashed in, you know what I mean? (laughs) But, yeah, it’s funny because I do run into kids that grew up with me and [01:02:00] they’re not kids anymore, they’re my same age, and we talk and everything. And they say to me, “Yeah -- “ now that we’re grown it’s like one of the things that they say to me is, “Well, you know, I just wanted to be a part of something back then, and, my dad wasn’t around,” and all of this. So, that’s part of the reason why they actually felt like they needed to join because they really wanted to have -- because they wanted to know how to be men. That’s like a big reason why a lot of the kids that I grew up with [01:03:00] got into the culture like that. And some were just intimidated by the gang members, and they said, “You are gonna join the gang and that’s that, or else.” Whatever that was. So, you had those two things going on. JJ: Okay, 1982 or 1983, the Harold Washington campaign was in the Logan Square area and the Young Lords, even though they weren’t using that name were very active in your area where you live. Were you living in Logan Square at that time, 1982 and ’83? PC: Nineteen eighty-two and ’83 I was in West Humboldt Park. 27 �JJ: West Humboldt Park, okay. And also Harold Washington, there was another office in that area working very strong in the Humboldt Park area, West [01:04:00] Humboldt Park. Do you remember, how old were you at that time? PC: Nineteen eighty-two and ’83, I was four and five. JJ: Oh, you were only four and five. PC: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so you don’t recall any of that. PC: You know what, the only -- yes, I mean, the only thing that I do recall unfortunately (laughs) is that my mom who she was the only one that would vote, and she didn’t wanna vote for Washington. She wanted Jane Byrne. JJ: Okay. PC: (laughs) So, that’s the other thing I remember from that particular... JJ: A lot of Puerto Ricans went for Jane Byrne in the beginning and (inaudible). So, she was basically following the Puerto Rican culture at that time, a lot of Puerto Rican (inaudible) Jane Byrne. PC: Really, I didn’t know that. Yeah, yeah. JJ: And I think the Young Lords [01:05:00] took people to Harold Washington and other groups and [West Town Coalition?]. Okay, so did your father ever mention the Young Lords or anything like that or was that named mentioned? PC: You know, not the Young Lords. He was more familiar with Los Hijos del Diablo. JJ: Oh, Los Hijos del Diablo. PC: Los Hijos del Diablo and La Hacha Vieja. 28 �JJ: Oh, La Hacha Vieja. What did he say about La Hacha Viejas and Los Hijos del Diablo, let’s go over those groups. Both of those groups were connected in a way with the Young Lords. PC: The Young Lords? JJ: Yeah. (inaudible). PC: Still working? JJ: They’re working. PC: Okay. He would basically tell me that especially with Los Hijos del Diablo, they [01:06:00] would actually hang out at a particular bar. I’m not sure where that bar was or anything like that, but he said that you knew when they would walk into the door and all of this. And I’m like, “Why?” “Oh, because they were these big guys and blah, blah.” But he really didn’t -- that’s kinda like as far as it goes. He talks about seeing a lot of afros every once in a while and all this stuff and that he wouldn’t mess with them and that he would stay away and all of that and blah, blah, blah and that it was dangerous and that you just didn’t wanna get into it with them and blah, blah, blah. So, it was that kinda of thing. JJ: And what did he say about the La Hacha Viejas? PC: La Hacha Vieja, you know, he didn’t say too much. JJ: They were one of the first [01:07:00] gangs in Chicago and stuff like that. PC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: We’re kinda finishing it up. What do you think is important in terms of this project that we’re trying to do here just telling the history of the Lincoln Park, but in 29 �general the community, the Puerto Rican community and displacement and (inaudible)? PC: Yeah, I mean... JJ: What keeps you inspired? Because I know that every time we talk about the Young Lords, you’re excited. PC: Yeah, I get excited, yeah, yeah. JJ: (inaudible). PC: Yeah, you know, I think one of the things [01:08:00] is that what (audio cuts out) what the Young Lords did, I feel that it can be done again. JJ: What is it that Young Lords did that you feel should be done again? What aspect of the Young Lords (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? PC: Yeah, I mean for me it would be great to see a gang turn into a political organization just like back in those days. And I’m always afraid to say that it’s never gonna happen. One is because I want it to happen and two is because that’s very pessimistic to say, “Ah, you know, these are just a bunch of kids that don’t know anything.” But the fact of the matter is is that that could happen again. [01:09:00] Maybe it’s just that there are people out there -- and I know that there are plenty of people out there that just don’t know about the Young Lords, they don’t know what you guys were all about. But what really concerns me though is that we live in a very materialist culture. I mean, young people now, they’re just kind of obsessed with money, money and just kinda like the -we tend to glorify -- and I am gonna add this -- and I am gonna include myself in 30 �this age bracket, because it’s my particular age group and I’m 34 years old. When [01:10:00] the whole... JJ: Hippie? PC: I can’t say it. JJ: Hip-hop movement. PC: Yeah. When the whole hip-hop movement came about, it wasn’t about that, you know what I mean? And that was actually a form of kind of social activism. And when it started in New York City, from my understanding is that the whole gang culture kind of stopped being and they all kinda joined together [01:11:00] as well. And I would say from like the 1970s to about the 1980s there has been a claim that there were no gangs out there. So, the way that that started was kind of reminiscent of what the Young Lords were about, but it was slightly different. There is, as far as I know, there are not a lot of Latino groups out there that kinda think in terms of the reorganization of society. One of the things was that [01:12:00] Black Panthers and the Young Lords were about -- you were very anticapitalist and very much looking at socialism as a way of being. And so, a lot of groups don’t have that, I mean, a lot of activist groups don’t have that, they’re more reformer groups and all of that. Yeah, so I think that’s what’s different now in that there is a lot of people that have come into the rap world and talk [01:13:00] about the cars and talk about the gold. And they will glorify Scarface, Tony Montana and Don Corleone, the Godfather and all of this stuff. So, it’s just kind of like -- and it’s just gotten worse. I mean, it has gotten to the point where there’s so much buffoonery. And you have a lot of these rappers that are like... 31 �JJ: (inaudible) We are gonna have to finish it up. PC: Okay. You know, that are like really not saying anything and they’re very influential, but there’s no [01:14:00] consciousness with what they’re saying. But who knows, I mean, somebody might come up and do something interesting, so, you never know. JJ: Okay. END OF VIDEO FILE 32 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6d7a3608d7b28661ded31b3a6b94f30e.mp4 b80a71c6514dd529b8b20980208fa6ac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Primitivo Cruz vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Artes, Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Cruz_Primitivo Title A name given to the resource Primitivo Cruz video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cruz, Primitivo Description An account of the resource Primitivo Cruz is a Young Lord at heart who studied at DePaul University. He has researched and written several poems and papers on the Young Lords. Mr. Cruz performed several of his poems and songs at the Young Lords 40th Anniversary, celebrating the official founding of the Young Lords on September 23, 1968. Most of his work is political by nature, focusing on the Puerto Rican experience, the right to Puerto Rican self-determination, as well as the rights of new immigrants. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a05b6eddc79ddb4bd5138a5920b49c4b.pdf 2bc0b99b61201a8ac73fd08b4774a6b5 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Marie Merrill Ramirez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/16/2012 Biography and Description English Marie Merrill Ramirez was a Young Lord in the 1970s in Milwaukee, Wisconsin where she worked closely with Chapter leader and Minister of Education, Dr. Luis “Tony” Baez. The Milwaukee Chapter worked within the university (UM) but primarily focused its organizing efforts in the community around deplorable housing conditions and discrimination, youth support and development, and bilingual education. In 1969, she and a group drove from Milwaukee to New York City to attend a major gathering for Puerto Rican self-determination and connected with other travelers in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood, at the Young Lords’ People’s Church headquarters. Ms. Ramirez is currently living back in Mayaguez, where she is involved with Minh (Movimiento Independentista Nacional Hostosiano) defending organizing rights of People, especially the workers, who she feels is the main force capable of making true change. They formed their group May 6, 2004 out of two branches of the P.S.P. ( Puerto Rican Socialist Party). The Hostosianos want to make Puerto Rico a free sovereign and independent nation. Minh members organize for a better education, health, culture, jobs and housing. And they work hard to uplift activists’ awareness of the conditions. They strongly feel that all social forces must unite, if they are to bring about any change. �Ms. Ramirez and many others participated in the fight to evict the United States Navy from Vieques, in defense of the environment, in the battle against Superpuerto, against the exploitation of mines in the mountainous center of the Island, and in the struggle to free the political prisoners. During the Vieques camp occupations, she wrote in blogs and reported about the U.S. military bombings of the Puerto Rican Island. Then she wrote about the victory of the campers to force the United States Military to leave Vieques. She continues to report that the struggle continues to get the U.S. to clean up their lands and to finance health programs for Puerto Ricans dying of diseases, related to the Navy’s military contaminations. Ms. Ramirez helped to organize a Peace March and a 24 hour vigil in front of Filiberto Ojeda’s house at Hormigueros, Puerto Rico, where the F.B.I. traveled from Atlanta, Georgia and shot and killed the Freedom Fighter. She has supported the struggle for the release of the political prisoners, including Oscar López Rivera. In 2010, she joined with sports athletes, artists, lawyers, medics, journalists, teachers, motivational speakers, and students to welcome and support all athletes (especially the Cuban) athletes at the Caribbean and Central American Games in Mayagüez. Even more recently, she hosted La Tertulia, a special event for the Young Lords. It was also organized in her hometown of Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. Spanish Marie Merrill Ramirez a trabajado como activista para la comunidad y la sección de Young Lords en Milwaukee por mucho tiempo. Ayudo con los problemas de la vecindario en el norte y el sur de la cuidad, enfocándose en estabilizando educación bilingüe en las escuelas. Ahora vive en Mayagüez, Puerto Rico donde sigue advocando para la autodeterminación de Puertorriqueños. Durante la huelga de estudiantes en 2010-2011, que fue la huelga mas larga y grande en la historia de Puerto Rico, Marie Ramirez tomo parte y trabajo con otros en coaliciones de uniones de trabajo, profesores, estudiantes, y activistas dentro de Puerto Rico. El gobierno tuvo que dejar la tarifa que iba doblar el costo de atender la universidad. Pero la victoria más significante fue que le movimiento de estudiantes forzó que el gobierno se sentara en la mesa de negaciones. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b9bf367f7f9579c5b5e5430b9ee5e661.mp4 d1b2949fa7ff9c3e0390b52cae696e27 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Eldelmira Cruz vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Cruz_Eldermina Title A name given to the resource Eldelmira Cruz video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cruz, Eldelmira Description An account of the resource Eldelmira Cruz is from San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico. She migrated to the Chicago Lincoln Park neighborhood in 1969 and lived right by the People’s Church. Her memories of her early days in Chicago include the work the Young Lords were doing as they grew into a human rights movement. Ms. Cruz recalls the fight in the courts for the Free Community Day Care Center, the Free Breakfast for Children Program, and the Ramón Emeterio Betances Free Health Care Clinic. She and her children also used these resources. Ms. Cruz describes a culture shock as she says she grew up all her life in the countryside in Puerto Rico. Ms. Cruz participated and volunteered in the Young Lords People’s Church. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1c7a1da85f30f7327cde8d474975921.pdf a47ea6ce4c617fad544286bc3a5a38bf PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Rafael Cancel-Miranda Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/19/2012 Runtime: 01:21:00 Biography and Description Oral history of Rafael Cancel-Miranda, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on November 19, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aa308b4d7daa1377b12a5f514985d656.mp4 a922972dba8f3aad0bd4213e876e67e4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Rafael Cancel-Miranda vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Rafael Cancel-Miranda, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 11/19/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Cancel-Miranda_Rafael Title A name given to the resource Rafael Cancel-Miranda video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cancel-Miranda, Rafael Description An account of the resource Oral history of Rafael Cancel-Miranda, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 11/19/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-19 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d25988b78112f383b782a9c0d3fa7d5.pdf 86e8d15230b019482198d0841fc064b5 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Alfredo Calixto Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/8/2012 Biography and Description English Alfredo “Freddy” Calixto belongs to a family who were among the first Puerto Rican families to move to Chicago in the early 1950s. Born in Caguas, Puerto Rico, Mr. Calixto lived through the displacement of Puerto Rican families from La Clark to the Lincoln Park Neighborhood where he grew up. Both of his parents and several of his many siblings became involved in the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María. His father also spent time with the Hacha Viejas (Old Hatchets), a social club that was active in the neighborhood. Mr. Calixto describes struggling with discrimination in Lincoln Park and how these early experiences inspired him to commit himself to advocating for Latino youth. He has served as the Executive Director for Broader Urban Involvement and Leadership Development (BUILD), a non-profit community organization in Chicago that was founded in 1969. He is currently the Vice President for Institutional Advancement at St. Augustine College, the only bilingual institution of higher education in the Midwest. Spanish Alfredo “Freddy: Calixto es parte de la familia quien fueron unos de los primeras familias que se movieron a Chicago en el principio de los 1950s. Nacido en Caguas Puerto Rico, Señor Calixto vivió por el �desplazamiento de las familias Puertorriqueñas de La Clark hacia Lincoln Park, donde creció. Sus padres y la mayoría de sus hermanos fueron parte de la Caballeros de San Juan y Damas de María. Su padre también trabajo con Hacha Viejas, una organización social que era activa en el vecindario. Señor Calixto describe su pelea contra discriminación en Lincoln Park y como esas experiencias lo inspiro a dedicarse a la lucha para los jóvenes Latinos. También a sido parte de la Executive Director for Broader Urban Involvement and Leadership Development (BUILD), una organización sin lucrativa en Chicago que fue creada en 1969. Hoy, Señor Calixto, es el vicepresidente por la Instiutional Advancement en St. Augustine College, que es la única institución bilingüe en el medio oeste de educación mayor. �yl_Calixto_Alfredo ALFREDO CALIXTO: Freddy. Okay, my name is Alfredo Calixto. I go by So, everybody knows me as Freddy Calixto. born in Caguas, Puerto Rico on February 28, 1956. I was And my dad took myself, my older sister, and my mother to the States probably before the end of 1956. brother. [Huiso?]. His name is José Luis Calixto. I had an older We call him And he, for some reason, my dad -- I don’t know if he couldn’t afford everybody, but he left him in Puerto Rico, in Caguas, in Barrio San Salvador. And he ended up staying there, getting raised my grandparents. He never made it with us back to Chicago, where we came from -where we went to, Chicago. The family, as I mentioned, I was [00:01:00] not even one years old before I even landed in Chicago, and my family moved. We lived -- the first place we lived when we were in Chicago -JOSE JIMENEZ: AC: What was your dad and mom’s name? My dad is Luis Calixto Cruz. Jiménez. My mother is Juana [Roldán?] They’re both from Caguas; both born in Caguas, Puerto Rico, from the Barrio San Salvador in Caguas, in Borinquen, Puerto Rico. Anyways, well when we came to Chicago, we went to live in what’s known as Chicago South Side -- currently today, the University of Chicago 1 �property. They -- we used to live on 63rd and Ellis, and that was a primary Puerto Rican community back in those days. A lot of people were living there. I remember living in a very big building with a lot of apartments. [00:02:00] It was like what you would consider a courtyard apartment building. And they were all -- everybody was Puerto Rican there. And there was buildings there. Woodlawn; it was all the way 63rd and Woodlawn. Was That was all where my aunt, we were always there and that was the -all Puerto Rican, the whole community back then. I was there probably till I was about five, maybe five years old. And by the time I was five, we moved, My father moved us, our family, to the north side into what’s known today as Lincoln Park. We moved to Halsted Street. Halsted and Armitage -- Halsted and Willow. We were on And we lived on Halsted Street between North Avenue and Armitage for, I don’t know how many years we lived there. different apartments on that block. We moved to From 1960 till 19-- probably 1970, or ’69 [00:03:00] or ’70, when we moved from that pocket of the neighborhood to another area, in Old Town; to North Avenue and Mohawk there. What I remember, you know, growing up in Lincoln Park, one of the first things was that, you know, being raised in a Puerto Rican home, you know, we spoke Spanish. My parents were, you 2 �know, spoke Spanish. They didn’t know English. And us, as children growing up in the household, we all spoke Spanish ’cause that’s all we knew, you know, till we went to school. My first experience with school in Chicago public schools was Newberry School on Willow, and -- between Orchard and Burling. And I remember slightly, you know, I was six years old when my parents put me in school. didn’t do the five-year-old thing. Commented [SC1]: Spelling corrected They So I was already six years old when I went to Newberry and they put me in first grade. Commented [SC2]: This was spelled wrong And because I was six, I went to first grade and not kindergarten. And to me [00:04:00] it was -- I was traumatized ’cause that’s the first time I heard English. And I was like, “Oh my God, what is this?” You know, I was very, s-- I was crying and scared and all that. But eventually, you know, in the school system, I eventually adopted fairly quickly, I’m assuming. I don’t -- you know, ’cause I know that I stayed in first grade for another year because of the English. I didn’t know English, and so they kept me in first grade for another year till, you know. And I think whatever they did that second year, first grade, it did whatever they wanted to do. ’Cause that’s -- by that time, I started to adapt to the American lifestyle, and then English, and all that. And I went to -- from first grade, I remember goin’ to third grade, not second, 3 �’cause I stayed there twice. And then from third grade, I went to fifth because by third grade, that’s when they had already taken all the Spanish out of me. ’Cause, you know, they -- at Newberury School, they said that it was bad. Spanish was bad, so that’s how we were taught. And so we were, you know, doin’ our [00:05:00] best to get rid of the language in our lives, you know. Not -- my parents, I had still came home and had to talk Spanish to my mom and my dad. But outside the home and the neighborhood -- when I was hangin’ out with the fellas -- the neighborhood or back in school, it was always English. And by the time I got to fifth grade, it was totally English, you know, and I went home and talked English. happen, you know. And that’s what started to When we came from Puerto Rico, it was me and my sister and, as I mentioned, we left a brother in Puerto Rico; so there were three of us. My family is total of 11, so all the other ones were born here in Chicago from -- after me. They were all born in Chicago. And all of ’em -- I think, ex-- yeah, I think most all of ’em. I think my sister, [Migdalia?] was probably born in the South Side -- and Victor -- were at the South Side Cook County Hospital, was the place that my mother went to give birth. All the other ones were born in St. Joseph Hospital [00:06:00] when it used to be on Belden, over there on 4 �Halsted. Hospital. That used to be St. Joseph -- the old St. Joseph That’s where all the other ones were born at. So living in the community -JJ: How was the culture thing between your parents and you, now you’re speaking mainly English and [they’re?] speaking -- AC: Well, I think what it was, it gave us as young -- as kids, we were able to, you know, try to hide things from the parents by using the English language. And the, you know, the parents responded, you know, with their Spanish. And then eventually, you know, throughout the years, they would start to pick up the English language and they start responding in their English -- Spanglish, you know, to us. And the, you know, and they would just say, you know, get upset and all that. So it was a little, I think we used it as a way of getting around certain things in the house. And eventually when you needed to talk English or Spanish, you would have to, you know, they would force it on you. But, what I saw happening to me and a lot of people -[00:07:00] with my friends, and of course all my siblings, ’cause they came after me -- and so they were all English only. They didn’t have Spanish ’cause by the time they came around, they were just speakin’ a lotta English already. My mom was -- and dad were adapting to the English language, so they had more -- or less experience -5 �of exposure to Spanish than I did. So that’s what I think was happening in the household, you know, the... Whenever you wanted to hide something from mom and dad, you used English. knows.” Until finally you started realizing, “Oh man, she You know, ’cause she knew -- then she started getting, you know, becoming aware of things. Our parents started to say, “Well I better learn a little bit.” And they started pickin’ up certain things here and there, so that when you told us -- talked about something, they knew what you were talking about. But not everything, so they - - you were able to get around a lot of the things. And a lot of the culture that was outside the house was completely different, you know. Growing up in the Lincoln Park community, when I lived on Halsted, when I [00:08:00] got to -- I finally -- we moved to Willow, right in front of Newberury School. We used to live at 711 West Willow, right in front of the school. of years. Commented [SC3]: Delete? So we lived there for a lot There was a family that lived up -- we lived in the first floor. Upstairs was the Martinez family, Herbie and his family, you know. And so, that’s when I started to experience the gang culture in the community ’cause, you know, Herbie used to be a Trojan. the Trojans. He was the President of And so his brother and I -- Harry -- we wanted to be junior Trojans and, you know, we were in fifth 6 �grade I think at the time. So we picked up the name and we were, you know, junior Trojans, but not really, you know, not really into the gang [cult?] thing, you know. Just doing it ’cause, you know, we saw it there with them and people in the other blocks, you know. We lived between Burling and Orchard and there were Trojans and there were other gangs in the other areas. And then as you grow, you know I went to -- shortly after that, after s-- I was in Newberry. From Newberry fifth grade, you graduated [00:09:00] from Newberry -- or not graduated, you passed. From fifth grade, you went to sixth. And back then, it was -- you had to go to Arnold Upper Grade Center, which was in Armitage, in Burling. And there, you went for sixth, seventh, and eighth grade before you graduated and went on to high school. So I passed from fifth grade at Newberry and went up to Arnold. cultural shock. And then Arnold was another Because now, you know, growing up in the little pocket neighborhood, you’re meeting other people from other parts of the neighborhood: from Armitage and Sheffield, from Bissell and Armitage, and from Dickens, all meeting up at Arnold. different people. And so there we met a lot of The same kind of thing happened. started picking, you know, everybody picked a group. became somebody. We We We -- I remember we were the Little Red 7 �Devils. Then that’s when I started to see the -- notice the real gang beginnings there. of the neighborhood there. The Latin Kings were part The older guys like the Young Lords, and the Paragons, the Black Eagles were there, [00:10:00] but they were way older there than me. not part of that till later on in years. So I was And then my father moved the family from Willow -JJ: You’re talking about when they were a gang, when the Young Lords were a gang? AC: Right, this was early on, right. 1969. So when I -- we moved in We moved over to North Avenue in the Old Town neighborhood out of the what, you know, we call the Lincoln Park into the Old Town neighborhood by St. Michael’s Church. All through those years, we were members of that church, St. Michael’s. Caballeros San Juan. church. My father was a member of the My mother wasn’t really much into the Think she used to go to the church, but she didn’t join the group because she was always dealing with all the kids, all her own children. But my aunt was real big with the Grupo de María -- I forgot what they called them. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) de María. AC: And so my mother -- my father was a Caballero San Juan and [00:11:00] Tía [Canda?] was with the Grupo de María. And they were both, the two, what we would call a little 8 �fanatic about the religion thing -- the Catholic Church there. And they were always going to retiros and things like that. And the retiros were like reunions for all Puerto Ricans, like from the South Side. ’Cause when we left the South Side, a whole community stayed there. It just moved from 63rd Street to 55th -- 55th and Halsted. And they were there for a lot of years. And my aunt, my father’s sister, she -- I guess she liked the South Side. ’Cause she stayed on the South Side, and eventually moved to 53rd and stayed there for a long time, until finally that whole community changed. And the same thing happened in 63rd, it evolved from Puerto Rican to African American to Black. The same thing happened in 53rd -- on 55th. then eventually, she didn’t come north. Pilsen. She went to She ended up on Western and 22nd Street. was like saying, “Tía, what’s up? And (Spanish).” And I She didn’t wanna move to the North Side and after that move, finally she [00:12:00] ended up in Humboldt Park. You know, but our family was there for a long time, and he was part of the church scene. That seemed to me as a reunion for them, from all over Chicago. They would see each other at these retiros that they would go to and -- so they stayed connected. Another thing that I saw that connect the families from -- and friends from Puerto Rico was the 9 �credit union. They established the Caballeros San Juan as a religious organization of the Catholic Church, but they also, in the ’60s, established a credit union. I think that happened on 55th Street, when they were the community on 55th Street. And, you know, developed an outlet for the Puerto Ricans to be able to go to a bank, try to get loans. Some of them were able to. Some of them were more successful, quicker than others, and so they were able to buy homes and things like that. And start businesses. So there were some Puerto Rican families who owned businesses in our [00:13:00] neighborhood. remember. Mario Rivera had Del Campos, a grocer on Willow and Halsted. Arroyo. The Rivera family, I And then there was another one on Armitage, The Arroyo family, they used to have a restaurant and a liquor store that I remember. businesses were American-owned. Most of the other I don’t think we -- I’m trying to remember -- I don’t know if there were any Blackowned businesses in the neighborhood at the time. don’t remember any. ’Cause I I know we had some Puerto Rican-owned and most the other ones were white-owned. JJ: You mentioned the Arroyo family, the Rivera family. there other families in Lincoln Park? Were Was it a family situation or how do you describe it? AC: Well yeah, I mean... 10 �__: [Your extended?] family? AC: They were families and people you grew up with, you know. Everybody was a different family. As I mentioned earlier, we had a lot of Puerto Ricans there, but in Lincoln Park, me growin’ up, [00:14:00] it was like a -- what you would see -- like a melting pot. Like what they were calling Uptown, the melting pot of Chicago, well we and my -- where I grew up and I went to school in Newberry. school with Puerto Ricans, back then was few. I went to There were, Puerto Ricans the majority as far as the Latinos. And then some other Latinos from Mexico and other Latin American countries, but very few of ’em. Rican -- from Puerto Rico. The majority was Puerto And then there were the white, you know, from Appalachia, like what we would call the hillbilly families around, gypsies they used to be around the neighborhood, and the African American, the Black. had some Asian people. So we had like a mix. We You look at my old pictures from the different grades in St. Michael’s, it was always a mixture. And that was cool for me growin’ up in that area. And having the different exposure to different races. We, you know, you kinda stuck to your own [00:15:00] and that’s the way it flowed, you know. You joined up with whoev-- Puerto Ricans and Blacks with Blacks and whites with whites. And that’s the kinda thing, the 11 �way the neighborhood separated itself later in -- at the later days. JJ: So it kind of separated, like were people mixed or were they kind of sticking together to a few Blacks at at time or how -- AC: Well -- JJ: -- how did you stick? AC: -- it was -- when we were younger, didn’t matter ’cause we were just kids at school. But when we got become teenagers, that’s when you starts choosing sides. And so you -- that’s when I was, you know, talkin’ about getting involved more with the gang culture of the neighborhood. We had gangs in every block. (coughs) Excuse me. had Black gangs. So you Back then, you had Stones and you had Disciples and mostly coming from the Projects, which were right down the street from us, on the Cabrini-Green. On Orchard, we had a guy that was a leader of the Stones living across the street from the Boys Club, but he was good -- cool with all of us. [00:16:00] And then eventually, you know, I was recruited into a gang called the Latin Saints. And that started in eighth grade. You know, from eighth grade on to I think my sophomore year in high school. But there were King-- there were Harrison Gents on Burley. And there were -- and then the rest of 12 �the neighborhoods back going -- Halsted and west of that was Latin Kings, which is the largest gang in the area at the time. JJ: So you were recruited, what do you mean? AC: Well, as I mentioned to you, I had moved from Willow to North Avenue. But I used to come to the -- I consider that my neighborhood -- I used to come to my neighborhood everyday. I used to walk from North Avenue and Mohawk by Larrabee -- walk all the way down back to Orchard and Willow. That’s where I hung out, that was my neighborhood around the Boys and Girls Club in Burling. And I had a friend on Burling, so I would always go to his house. And eventually, I would cross, you know, [00:17:00] the white gang that everybody on that -- on our side that I lived on, was always fighting against, was the CORP. white group that was west of Larrabee. And it was a And so I would go through that, come through the neighborhood, cross Orchard -- which was Latin Saints -- and then into Burley, which was Harrison Gents. And so every time you walk by there, they would always try to find out, you know, were you in a gang? Do you want to be in a gang? And I’d always would say no, you know, just do my thing and go back. And eventually, friends of mine -- they were friends, people that I went to school with in Newberry -- were Latin 13 �Saints. And so they were just -- kept talkin’ to me about joining up with them. And eventually I did. So I decided okay, you know, I told them I didn’t wanna get beat up, you know, how you get initiated. up.” I said, “I ain’t getting beat And they said, “Oh, you don’t have to. that to you.” So they didn’t. We won’t do So I joined them. This was like around 1969. JJ: Okay, and [00:18:00] the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María, what were some of the activities that they were doing at that time? AC: Kinda going back. Well for us, and this I didn’t realize this until years later, of course, was we were members of St. Michael’s as I mentioned earlier. church. But our masses were never in the main You know, I didn’t realize that till later on I said, “Good Lord.” They had a little hall on the side of the main church, and that’s where we used to have, like, we, you know, it’s like fun for us as little kids. We would go there the activities -- the hall had a bowling alley and things like that. But, you know, as you -- as I grew up and thought about I said, “Oh my God.” You know, they really discriminated against us ’cause they didn’t even give us the opportunity to have mass in the chapel in the main church. They said, no you guys the -- you Latinos have to have mass in El Hall, we used to call it “El Hall” 14 �-- the little hall next to the main church. where all the activities were there. mass. And that’s You know, you go to The Puerto Rican masses were you had some -- a mass [00:19:00] and afterwards you socialized. And so that was the thing they did it all at El Hall, the hall. And then the group, the Caballeros San Juan, they would, you know, they had the deacons. They’d go to -- they would start recruiting for people to go to the schools, whatever. I don’t know what they call it, school theology, whatever. But to go to school to become a deacon. So they were starting to recruit ’cause, you know, very few priests were from Latin American countries. They were always American priests that learned Spanish as they became priests. And so we always had a priest that wasn’t Latino, of course, that gave mass. And you had the assistance of a person of a Puerto Rican background. JJ: And the mass was in the hall. AC: The masses were always held for us -- were always in the hall -- the small little hall inside. But the activities of the Caballeros San Juan was they were do, you know. Their activities, I remember dances -- a lot of dances, a lot of parties that they would throw in the [00:20:00] hall there. And they would, I’m assuming, raising money for the church, ’cause I didn’t think they would doing anything 15 �particularly for themselves. But they had -- and they would sell, you know, we would have dances regularly and there would be charges -- they would charge for the dance. You had to buy your beverages and everything there. And the money would go to St. Michael’s. You know, so throughout the years, they did that. I mean, all the years I remember, they were always -- the masses were always held in the little room -- the little hall. And they were in Commented [SC4]: Should this be cleaned up? the main church throughout the years. JJ: And you were also into the school. You were going to the school? AC: Well, by the time I started going to the school, that was the changing of the neighborhood there, you know, the gentrification of the neighborhood. You know, I went to St. Michael’s in ’69 in eighth grade. So, by the time I graduated high school, ’73, we had gentrification in the whole Lincoln Park area. And so, I believe -- [00:21:00] JJ: You’re talking about three- or four-year time period, or? AC: Well, the four years of me graduating from high school, you know, goin’ to high school in ’69. I think I started high school in September ’69, and I graduated in May of ’73. And so there was a complete change goin’ on in the whole area. Not just there, ’cause St. Michael’s was in Old Town so it’s a little different than the old neighborhood on 16 �Halsted and Armitage and Willow where I grew up at. So there was a shift in the whole community there. JJ: What kind -- I mean, can you describe what-- how that kind of started and what kind of shift was going on, or? AC: Well, people were -- one of the things that I noticed, you know, was a lot of us were not homeowners. renting. Everybody was And so that’s how they would -- you would decide where to live: where you could afford to pay the rent. And so families were moving around ’cause of the landlord said, “Okay, I’m raising the rent [00:22:00] (audio cuts out) find another place.” And I mentioned earlier for my family, we were a big family: my mother, my dad and they had 11 -- or 10 children here, then one that stayed in PR. So every time they moved, they had a big group that they had to move to. And so they had to find big apartment buildings, that’s why we were on North Avenue. On North Avenue we had a real big apartment that everybody fit -- we all fit there. And that was on a big building as well, multi-unit, but everybody there was a Puerto Rican family as well, living there. family upstairs. The Peña family was there, the Roya So we had, you know, that was still the neighborhood there, part of North Avenue, probably from Sedgwick down to Halsted. You know, all Latinos up -- mainly Puerto Ricans, up there. But that was the thing 17 �that I saw, when growing up and experiencing the gentrification. They called it urban renewal. And then in -- I went through my high school years not -- I wasn’t into any of [00:23:00] that stuff. ’Cause I was mainly into, you know, just goin’ to school and messin’ around and, you know, hangin’ out, doing things that we did. that people were moving. But I noticed You know, people were moving, we were getting -- on the block that I hung out the most on was Orchard by Willow between North and Willow. (coughs) Excuse me. And by ’73, the Boys Club was the anchor building on the corner, and it was empty from there all the way to North Avenue. you know. They knocked down all the buildings, We were like, “Oh my God.” They were, you know, we used to do things -- crazy things in those buildings when they were emptied and still around, but eventually they started knockin’ ’em down, so they had all this vacant land on that one side of Orchard. intact. The other side stayed All the three-story buildings were still there and eventually what happened. lot of that property. made some big bucks. The Boys and Girls club owned a They sold it, you know, some people It was [00:24:00] kinda illegal because they were on the board of the Boys Club and just couldn’t have do-- it was illegal for them to do that. But they did make some dollars in the sales of that property. 18 �And that eventually turned out to be townhomes. Which today they’re still townhomes in that whole area from where the Boys Club building is at, all the way south to North Avenue. All townhomes. that I saw. So those were the kind of changes A lot of empty buildings, a lot of families moving west, you know. I didn’t learn about the west neighborhoods -- West Side to, you know, I graduated from high school. Well there in my high school years, we used to get in our car and drive up to Humboldt Park, you know. We used to, when we had friends that moved out there, so we’d come visit them. And so we were doing that a lot. Driving around Clemente High School. neighborhoods on Rockwell. Going into My family had family on Rockwell and North Avenue you know. So they were there the Jiménez and Luis Jiménez had owned the property there. [00:25:00] The Valdez family owned a building there on Rockwell. TAnd so we -- they were like anchored there for a lot of years. them. And so we would always come and visit So that was my back-and-forth tracking from Lincoln Park to Humboldt Park and so forth there during that time. Well, I mentioned I went to St. Michael’s I graduated in ’73. So in ’73, I was already a father, you know. My girlfriend was pregnant, we had our son and he was born in March of 1974. And, so of course, the thing was, you know, 19 �you gotta get married, you gotta get a job, that kind of thing. You gotta support your family now, right? wasn’t into that. So, I I was into hangin’ out with the guys and doin’ my thing, you know. (coughs) Excuse me. And so I didn’t take it serious for a while, you know, we would go out as a group. All the guys would go out lookin’ for work and we end up spending the day getting, you know, getting high, drinking, and come back later at night, in the evening. We didn’t find any work. And so eventually you got, you know her family started [00:26:00] getting, you know laying the law down. Well you need to find a job, you gotta support, you’re gonna have a child, this and that. And so they found me a job. They got me a job at Greyhound and that lasted for a little while. JJ: I lost that job. Your family got you a job? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) AC: No her family. My girlfriend’s family ended up getting me a job. JJ: What kind of work did you finally do when you s--? AC: Well that, Greyhound was unloading the bus. You know, so I did that for a little while, but I, you know, I didn’t last long. So I kept goin’ around with friends lookin’ for jobs. And back then, I went to St. Michael’s [a lot?]. Most of -- all my friends went to Waller. And Waller had a 20 �program where after your junior year, you went to school only half the day. Half the day in this classroom, the other half you went to work in the factory. ’Cause back then Lincoln Park all through Clybourn was all factories. So there were plenty of factories all around there, places to work. So everybody went to work after 12 o’clock. went to school, and then you shot to your job. You And it was part of your credits for school, but it was [00:27:00] labor for the companies that were all around Lincoln Park. It And it went -- it extended into Lakeview, those factories. And a friend of mine’s, Herc Nelson, he used to work at this big plant on Diversey and Wolcott, that -Stewart-Warner. Was humongous, big old plant. And they made the gaskets that they use in a lot of automobiles. And so he used to work there during the two years of his junior and senior year. And so when we were looking for work, he said let’s go back there. And then since they saw that he used to work there, they said, “Oh yeah.” hired him right away. They They didn’t wanna hire me ’cause they -- you know, I had never worked in anywhere. I did a lot -- my jobs were in shoe stores during high school. Throughout high school, I worked in shoe stores and clothing stores, but never in a factory. So when they hired Nelson, you know, they didn’t say -- they weren’t 21 �gonna hire me. And then, you know, Nelson -- we called him Herc ’cause he was, you know, a [00:28:00] big guy. The Rosario -- Nelson Rosario fam-- the Rosario mem-- Eddie Commented [SC5]: Delete? Rosario, you know, they were all -- all of them were big, stocky guys, so. He told ’em, “Hey, what about my friend?” You know, with his deep voice, and the lady said, “Okay, we’ll hire him, too.” You know. So they gave me a job, so that was my first experience of workin’ in a factory. I said, you know, they gave me a broom. And And stewar-- as I mentioned, they made a press that just presses a gasket, and the remainders of the gasket fall to the floor. My job was to keep sweeping’ that access [sic]] part that can fall into the floor. “What? And I said, “What?” Sweepin’ this eight hours?” was in August. I thought to myself, And, you know, this The summer of ’74 in August. And -- no, the summer of ’73 ’cause I had just graduated from high school. And I started, you know, I said, “My God,” you know, I kept thinking to myself, “I can’t do this. can’t, you know, I can’t do this.” You know. remembered about a organization called ASPIRA. I And I had [00:29:00] And they -- I knew that they told me they help people get into school -- to college. ’Cause I know back in high school, we tried to get college into the counselor’s head, and they would tell us, “Oh, no, you directly to the 22 �factories on Clybourn. You know. You can’t go to college. No way.” So that wasn’t even our radar, but I had it in my mind that I did want to do that. So as I was sweepin’ around, I kept thinkin’ about it, thinkin’ about it. Then two hours later, I threw the broom out and said, “Hell, I can’t do this.” And I left. Milwaukee Avenue. school.” So I went and found ASPIRA on And I just told ’em, “Hey I wanna go to And so that same day, I think it was the last day of registration at Northeastern. They got me to Northeastern, they helped me with financial aid papers, and I started school probably the next day or two days later. Classes started at Northeastern so I began college at Northeastern in the fall of ’73. well. And that was a shock as You know, ’cause wanting to go to school and [00:30:00] being prepared to go to school is two different things. And I couldn’t, you know, I wasn’t prepared through all my grade school and high school years. was educated for college. factories, you know. I never I was educated to go work in the And so, when I wa-- we were at Northeastern, we the same thing that we did everywhere else. We clicked. out and we partied. studying. All the Puerto Ricans clicked. We hung You know, we did that, we did a little So we were there for a couple years, we were collecting our financial aid checks. I had a wife and a 23 �son, you know, so that covered expenses and everything. And every summer I did a job. and I would not work. I would not get work-study Should -- I wouldn’t go to school in the summer so I would get a job as a college student summer job. So I did a couple different things throughout those summers. I went to factories on Clybourn. summer in the factory at Clybourn. Grant Hospital buffing floors. CTA bus. I worked one One summer, I worked at And then one summer I drove And then, you know, I remember [00:31:00] getting a college work-study grant and seeing BUILD -- an organization called BUILD on the sheet. And I remember that brought me back my memories to back when I was, you know, like eighth grade, sixth, seventh, eighth, freshman. Hanging out on Orchard and Willow a guy named Lacey Smith. He was a BUILD worker that used to come around and, you know, I didn’t know what he was doing. curious about it. I was always But he would get us together, the guys from Orchard and Willow, and he would take us to CabriniGreen to play baseball or basketball. We’d go to the YMCA on Larrabee and North and play basketball. They would -- he would bring those guys to the Boys Club to play ball there. And we would do field trips. We would go different places - the racetracks, Soldiers Field [sic], things like that. But I was always wondering, “Why, what was he 24 �doing?” I remember going to St. Michael’s and we did some basketball at St. Michael’s and sitting in the bleachers, they’re watching it from far. ’Cause I would say, “Wow what’s this guy up to, [00:32:00] man? He’s got Stones over here, Kings over here, Saints over here. doin’?” What’s he You know, I was always curious about that. So anyways, I remembered it really well when I saw it on the work-study list. And I told him I wanted to work there. And so they said okay, but that wasn’t my first job. gave me -- assigned me Big Brothers Big Sisters. They I did that, and then I had a friend that was working at BUILD so I told him, “Hey, I wanna work at BUILD, let them know.” And eventually I did get a phone call from a guy, Hank Bach, one of the founders of BUILD. Called me up and said, “Hey, I hear you wanna work for us.” So he said, “Come on over, we could start this weekend.” know, the weekend was camp. And I was like, you They were goin’ to Camp Channing, Michigan. And I said, I told him, “Whoa, whoa, this weekend camp?. Wait, no I’m married, I got a son. wife and a son.” He said, “Bring ’em with you.” was my first experience with BUILD. Channing for the weekend, and it baptized by fire. A So that I went to Camp I was like -- I would call ’Cause we went to camp where they had brought like 75 different gang members from [00:33:00] all 25 �over the North Side. You know, Cabrini-Green, the Latin Eagles from Addison, all the guys from Armitage and Halsted around there, and all of the Orchard and Will-- everybody was there. And it was pretty wild, you know. Wild experience ’cause it was -- everybody wanted to goof off and have fun, of course. So they did their own thing, but eventually that weekend I learned what BUILD was all about. You know, bringing people together to get to know each other on a different level, so that they didn’t have to beat each other up, or kill each other, or whatever it would be. And so that was my first beginnings with the organization. That was in ’76. I started working during my school semesters, like fall and spring. there and then get -- and then when I didn’t have work- study I would get a summer job. in the fall again. You know, then come back And I did that for a while until ’79. Then ’79 they hired me full time. years. I would work And I stayed there 30 From ’79 to 2009 did a lot of [00:34:00] diff-- all the different opportunities that they had there for me. worked on the prevention program. I I think I began working as a prevention staff, working with the -- doing drug awareness in schools. with kids after school. And then doin’ sports activities work with gang youths. And did that. Did intervention Same thing, sports, jobs, things 26 �like that, GED programs, and reportings. You know, did a lot of the administration work, then became supervi-- you know did all the positions at BUILD. Executive Director. Till ’94 became the And I was there for 15 years at the Executive Director till I left in 2009. So that’s my experience with work-JJ: Where are you at now? AC: I’m at St. Augustine College. I came here in September of 2009 and the transition for me was educational. ’Cause, as I mentioned, 30 years at the organization doing street intervention and [00:35:00] prevention work with kids; high risk youth and gang-involved and not gang-involved, and working with parents a lot. That exposed me to community work ’cause I [had done?] a lot of work with parents. And it reminded me, ’cause, you know, my goal -- our goal was to go back to your own neighborhood and work with the young people coming up behind you, so that they didn’t have to experience the things that you went through, and avoid some of the negative things that you did or that was around ’em. And so when I went back to the neighborhood and started working with the short-- younger guys in the neighborhood you know, gettin’ them into sports and things like that. And, you know, I remember I said, “My God.” You know, this was like in the late ’70s and early ’80s, and there was a 27 �major gang -- spike in gang violence. And throughout, you know, the whole area of Lincoln Park there, was -- we had a lot of that goin’ on. Not as, you know -- my years were not involved in that situation. banging. We didn’t do a lot of gang There was no guns pulled out on people like that, you know, I had a [00:36:00] couple experiences, but not much. And then when I, you know, the first shooting on Orchard and Willow was one of the [Velez?] family. Which is another large, Puerto Rican family that grew up in the neighborhood. But one of the Velez kids got lit up on -- he shot on right in front of the Boys Club on Orchard and Willow. And that was like our first experience of anybody getting shot there -- from our group, that was growing up from the Latin Saints there. On -- the Harrison Gents had some issues because they were -- they used to fight the Kings. And they had a couple shootings between them on there. But that was, you know, not compared to other neighborhoods, like what was happening in Humboldt Park and West Town at the time. But it reminded me, ’cause, you know, in the media, what you started to see was, where are the parents of these kids? putting -- blaming fingers. Everybody you know, kept And I was saying, “Wait, my mother,” as I mentioned, we talked about the cultural differences. When I left my house, it was -- I was a 28 �different person. I walked different, you know. It was like, you know, Freddy Calixto from the streets, [00:37:00] you know, walked right out the door. door, you were somebody else. When you went out the When you came into the house, you were, you know, Freddy Calixto, el hijo de Luis y de Juana. And you had to, you know, to act like that. you know, you had So they never knew anything about the gang [involvement?], because that wasn’t part of their culture. You know, they -- my father worked, and then his thing was, you know, la familia. You know, hangin’ out with his -- with the family that would visit, or he would go visit. And my mother was at home all the time, you know, taking care of kids. And from the -- and for dad was the church, like a lot of the Caballeros de San Juan stuff that -- back and forth. exposure. But never -- they never had Lot of the Puerto Rican families never had the exposure to how we grew up in the streets, and what we were doing the streets, until, for a lot of people, was too late. So my mom never knew. never knew.” I realized that, I said, “Mom I remember goin’ to -- comin’ out of school at St. Michael’s and I had a Saints sweater on. My -- three of us, David, and Wilfred all had Saints sweaters on. We walked into the house during lunch, you know, [00:38:00] and then my mother said, “Hey, what’s that?” And, you 29 �know, I looked at her and I said, “Ah, it’s from school. My school sweater.” She goes, “Oh.” another question about it. that. You know, never And you know, so I remember And I said to, you know, “Wait a minute.” “Where are the parents?” this stuff. They don’t know anything about And so I, you know, I started developing an awareness program. parents. You know, Eventually became gang awareness for And we started teaching the -- goin’ into schools and talking to parents of the children and saying, “Look, this is -- you guys need to learn this. on the streets.” This what’s going And we started teachin’ them about all this: the gang structures, and colors, and who’s out there, and where they hang out. know that. And the idea was so that they can And if they saw their kids wearing, you know, black and gold, or black and red, black and green, they would know, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, that’s -- let’s stop this right now.” ’Cause some kids were asking their parents to buy them these clothes, and they were doing it, you know. And back then, allowing them to put the laces in the shoes, and the parents were buying it for the kids, ’cause they didn’t know. So this educational [00:39:00] program was very helpful for a lot of parents. And it helped them, ’cause you could -- the way we presented it was, you could stop the young kid from joining and getting in too deep 30 �into the gang. But it would be a lot harder to get ’em out, once they were in. And so idea was to get them before and -- with the prevention program -- and with the parent education program. JJ: So you had a lot of parents involved, or (inaudible)? AC: Parents from all over. It started out in the neighborhood, so we were working with parents in the neighborhoods that we worked in, like in Lincoln Park. Lakeview. We were also in We were back in West Town and Humboldt Park. So we started going into all the schools, ’cause that’s where, you know, parents were at. And we would develop workshops for parents at -- through schools, churches, ’cause a lot of church groups, block clubs, you know, where everybody started; once they found out about it, everybody was looking for it. wasn’t available. They needed that information ’cause it It wasn’t nowhere. putting it out there. it. So we started The police department picked up on They started doing their own prevention program. [00:40:00] And they started, -- they had it, they -- we partnered with them, because they had the graphics, you know. Because of crime scenes, there was always a photograph taken, so they had graphic scenes. The States Attorney’s Office did their own presentation for gang awareness for parents. But they had, you know, graphic 31 �scenes of people being shot, laying in the streets. And they had statistics that they could talk -- give us about, how many shootings, how many murders, how many arrests, and all that stuff that we incorporated to our workshops. And our workshops were from the social work perspective on how we could help you, or your son, or your daughter. For them, it was, you know, lettin’ ’em know, this the problem. We come out here, we’re gonna lock you up, that kind of thing. So a little different perspective. But it was, we were part of them ’cause they had the good information that we could use for our our presentations. So, yeah, we had a lot of groups, a lot of parents. JJ: Now talkin’ about perspectives, right around that same time the Young Lords are [00:41:00] transforming through the gang. You knew them when they were a gang. AC: Right. JJ: And they kinda just jumped [in it?] from the gang into like a political type of group and that. AC: How did you see that? Well, my exposure was the church, you know. The church and the park on Armitage and Halsted -- the People’s Park, and the church on Dayton, you know, ’cause that was the Latin Kings, that was their turf. And we used to walk by there and hang out with them once in a while. something would happen. Every so often, And, you know, it’s -- at Waller 32 �would -- between them, and there would be beefs and -- but, you know, once in a while we were hang out -- go out on Armitage and hang out. then the church. And I remember hanging out there, And you know what was really -- didn’t know much what’s going on here. And that’s why like when I first realized, “Oh, this is somethin’ going on with the Young Lords, and they took over this church, and this is People’s Park.” And I said, “Oh, wow.” interesting, you know. know. It was very This is goin’ on, and then, you So it was like, for me, was like, [00:42:00] just see the beginnings of the exposure to it. Later on, I was older. JJ: How old were you at that time? AC: This -- I was still in high school, you know. And then when I got out of high school, when I, you know, learned more about it and got a little more involved, I remember getting (pauses) the, I don’t know what year it was on Wilton. You had the office on Wilton. That’s where I got -- I came -- I volunteered when you were running for all the men in the area. volunteered. And we were, you know, so I I worked in there, in the office for a while. And hangin’ out with the guys from the neighborhood, they had Eagles there hangin’ out with them for a while, so I did that and so forth. But my years at Northeastern was 33 �like an awakening for me, because I learned about the Puerto Rican culture. You know, as I mentioned to you very early on in this discussion, they took the Spanish out of me by third grade. So for me, when I went to you know, I didn’t know about Puerto Rico, I didn’t know about, you know, nothing about my culture, my history. [00:43:00] knew was that it was bad. thing to be speaking. All I Spanish was a bad wanted to be American. You didn’t want to do that. You But I never felt American, you know, ’cause we always had somebody that told us we weren’t Americans, you know. But when I went to Northeastern, we - - I was exposed to, you know, protests. Puerto Ricans were protesting. Rican studies. You know, the They didn’t have Puerto We wanted -- they, you know, so I joined the Union for Puerto Rican Students. So I was a member of the Union for Puerto Rican Students. And we, you know, we did our thing. We partied a lot, but we go to meetings and hear from some of the leaders, and we were present whenever they said, “Let’s take over this and that.” And so we did a lot of sit-ins, and we took over the President’s office a few times. And we demanded, you know, we wanted Puerto Rican studies. We wanted José López come and become a professor, and so forth, and we wanted El Centro to be established for the Latino community. And all those things 34 �took sitting in their office and not moving until they decided to make it happen. So I got my exposure to the political [00:44:00] (audio cuts out) and then learning more about the Young Lords through that. And that’s when I went out and did some volunteer work in the Wilton office, things like that. JJ: Okay. (pauses) __: AC: Pause it, yeah. So, one of the things that -- when you go back to the urban renewal or urban removal, however you want to call it. It had effect on a lot of things, on the family that lived in the different apartments there. And as I mentioned earlier, there were very few owners. The ones that did own, they really, you know, were ripped off -- basically ripped off because they were selling their homes for eight thousand dollars. You know, this is a community where, you know, you can go that same home that they bought for 8,000 dollars, they probably sold it for 500,000 later on, you know. But these people were getting great deals. If they got eight or 10 grand for a home, they felt like they were millionaires and moving off to Logan Square. [00:45:00] And becoming the first home homeowners in the West neighborhood -- Logan Square, Humboldt Park -- buying little two flats and things like that. But in the 35 �neighborhoods, what was happening was they were, you know, you saw that they, you know, people moving away and they, you know, the gang structure that was, that was there. what was happening, it was being exported. that it stopped. But So it wasn’t You know, the gangs didn’t ended because they changed the neighborhood. They just moved them, and they moved them from the area to area. went, that’s where the gangs were. So wherever they So you saw the spike. There was a lot of gang activity in Lincoln Park. Then you saw a spike of gang activity in West Town, Wicker Park. Because that’s where a lot of families moved to. And then you saw a lotta spike in gang activity in Humboldt Park, ’cause a lot of families moved there. move was west, west, west, west. Lincoln Park. ’Cause the whole And they cleaned out No more gangs in Lincoln Park, you know, ’cause they moved everybody out. But the gangs didn’t stop, they just moved [00:46:00] into another neighborhood, wherever there was a low-income community, where people paid low rents, the gangs were a subculture of that. You know for us, it was band together to defend your neighborhood against other people, other groups. The same thing started happening when people -- when Latinos were moving west. They were confronted with the, you know, the 36 �white guys -- the white gangs: the Gaylords, the PVCs. And they had to -JJ: To banding together to fight other white gangs or Latino gangs or what(inaudible)? AC: Yeah, mainly it was other la-- first, it was the other Commented [SC6]: Delete? white gangs, because they didn’t, you know, it was a racial thing. They didn’t like spics, they just said it straight out, you know, they would come and tell you, you know, “F you, spic.” You know, so you have to be -- either you have to run or you have to defend it. And what started happening, people were saying, “No, we’re gonna click -- “ whoever was there, you know, if it was the Gents, or whoever it was, if it was Latin Kings. You joined up and you you said, “No. numbers.” You got to get it. Now, you know, we’re [00:47:00] And that’s what started happening. You know, the Latinos started outnumbering the other gangs. And so they were no longer, after so many years, there were no longer white gangs to fight against, and they started turning on each other. And all the Latino gangs started fighting with one another, and that’s what we still have today, you know. Latino gangs, fighting Latino gangs. And then the mixture of people that -- it didn’t matter, you know, Lat-- if you were Black, Latin, if you join, you 37 �join. Whatever gang you join. Then it wasn’t so much more racial breakdowns of what gang you joined. JJ: So you’re saying that a lot of these gangs that were pushed out of Lincoln Park went into other neighborhoods. And did they join up with other gangs, start new gangs, how did that work? AC: Well, the Latin Kings, it was really easy for them, because there was Latin Kings already in the West Side. Latin Kings had already started in Humboldt Park, and they -- so they were just Kings moving from neighborhood to neighborhood. Just -- and they, you know, they knew [00:48:00] each other, they hung out. deal. So it was no big Latin Saints, for us, that was the end of them. There were no more Latin Saints. I didn’t even realize -- we didn’t even realize that there was an old Latin Saint gang on the South Side, and I didn’t know that till I used to visit my cousins on 55th Street. At 56th and Peoria. And there were some Latin Souls around there, and they would all say, “I’m gonna tell them you’re a Latin Saint.” You know, that what my cousins used to threaten me with. And I said, you know, “They don’t know me from the Latin Saints.” ’Cause I thought they were talkin’ about us. I didn’t realize that on 47th Street there was Latin Saints there from the ’60s. So there, they were there. They’re 38 �still around. But the Latin Saints from Lincoln Park, they just stopped existing after the move. Everybody moved out of there. The older guys went to Vietnam. Our group graduate. I went You know, we to high s-- to college. all went our own ways, and that was it for that. Younger guys [00:49:00] that were in that neighborhood, moved west and they joined other gangs. You know, that’s what they did. JJ: You mentioned Vietnam. Did that do anything to the gangs when a lot of the soldiers came back to the -AC: Well, from what I saw, the people that I knew that got involved in that, it was a way out. You know, a lotta people went there because they were facing the judge, and the judge told ’em it’s either army or jail. them, of course, chose the army. And a lot of So that’s how a lot of people took off, you know, went to the army. ’Cause they were getting caught up and goin’ in front of a judge and getting the choice. So a lot of them did do that. for a lot of people, it worked. It helped them. I think Because they went there, they got their GEDs, they came back, and they came back to work. Those were the first guys you saw working at Peoples Gas, at Commonwealth Edison, and things like that. But for a lot of guys that went to Vietnam, they got stuck. They got stuck on the heroin. I saw my 39 �brother-in-law, his cousin, friends, everybody that was out there. They all came back with habits. [00:50:00] You know, so they all came back with heroin habits, and they just festered in the neighborhood. Then for us, in our neighborhood around Armitage and Halsted, were a lot of people strung out on heroin. And that whole area, man, that whole neighborhood, they all -- the AIDS virus hit real hard. A lot of brothers died of AIDS ’cause they, you know, they didn’t know any different. They were sharing needles, and a lot of them caught AIDS, and a lot of ’em died. And I would, you know, I would get phone calls every so often and every -- this one guy would call me. time I got a call from him, I knew what it was. telling me so-and-so just died. just droppin’. Every He was And one by one they were And a lot of brothers from our -- that area just died of AIDS. JJ: What happened to a lot of the adults? I mean, what did they move to or what happened? AC: Well, as I mentioned earlier, it was a westward move. So from Lincoln Park -- from, you know, anywhere from Larrabee, Orchard, Halsted, Bissell, Armitage, in all that area. If you were one of the lucky ones that were -- that [00:51:00] owned a home and sold it, you bought -- you were one of the first families that were homeowners in Humboldt 40 �Park and Logan Square, or even Wicker Park, West Town. most families, as I said, rent. But So they move in to a places where they could rent apartments and so that’s what happened. They moved in, I said they first moved into Wicker Park. That was the first area west, and then further west to -- a little further west on the other side of Western to Humboldt Park, and then that’s where people... One of the things I did notice that the urban removal process started -- kinda stopped in Humboldt Park. It took a lotta years before it picked up any momentum. And I noticed, because I was at Northeastern at the time, and I did a project on the whole urban removal, you know, for one of my classes. And I was shooting film of Cabrini- Green, seeing the changes that was happening in Cabrini. I was going back to Lincoln Park and showing all the changes and [00:52:00] the new neighborhoods, the new buildings, the new neighbors. And then coming -- driving into Humboldt Park and showing what I mentioned, that I saw on Orchard, empty lots well on Rockwell. From Rockwell, North Avenue all the way down, they were empty lots ’cause they were burning buildings every night. There was a building on fire, and they were knocking ’em down. And there was plants, the same plants that they did on Lincoln Park were there in Humboldt Park. They were planning to do some 41 �building, you know, high-end buildings there, but they had resistance. The community banded together and resisted that whole move. There was an, or there is an organization there called Bickerdike Redevelopment Corporation, and they came together, and they worked on it, and they stopped it. They said, “No, this ain’t gonna be, you know, high-end living here.” housing. You know, we -- they fought for low-income And they were able to build all low-income housing in all those empty lots. And so that’s what stopped the urban removal process there in Humboldt Park. [00:53:00] It didn’t stop it in Wicker Park. Park, they took over. skyrocketed. rent. In Wicker They, you know, the rent The buildings you couldn’t buy, you couldn’t Unless, you know, you were a white-collar worker making big bucks. And if you didn’t own a home, and you know, people that own homes that had to give -- move out because of taxes. The ones that were able to stay and pay the taxes, they stayed and they kept their homes. was like, I count ’em on one hand. But that You know, some of the families that I know that lived on Bell Street, you know they had two, three houses on the block. else, I don’t think there were any. stopped it. It stopped there. And then anywhere But Humboldt Park And that’s why the Puerto Rican community was there for so long in Humboldt Park for 42 �many, many years, until the ’90s. seeing the change again. started to happen. west again. And so you started The whole new gentrification And, you know, people started moving And then you look at the numbers, the between 10 years, and 10 years, and 10 years later. Everything kept shifting, what further, further west from Humboldt Park. It had stopped for 20 years, [00:54:00] and all of a sudden, it started to see the shift. People were moving out of Humboldt Park and ending up in Belmont Cragin now, where there’s a whole new population of Latinos. The thing -- another big change was the influx of Latin American countries. People from Latin American countries, not -- Puerto Ricans were no longer the majority of Latinos. the numbers of Latinos, they were the minority. the numbers of Puerto Ricans went down. And So then You know, families moving away, a lot of families moving to Florida, moving out to suburbs, moving further west to other communities. So we still have the Puerto Rican community Humboldt Park, but the numbers are very low. The majority of the Latinos that live in Humboldt Park are not Puerto Rican, you know. JJ: (inaudible) AC: They’re Mexicanos. So, and then we had an increase of Latinos from different Latin American countries, you know. So that’s what we have currently and further west. 43 �JJ: Now, what about (pauses) because Bickerdike has done a lot of good work in terms of [00:55:00] getting low-income housing in Humboldt Park. Definitely fought well, [resisted?] well, but the Young Lords also resisted in Lincoln Park, probably because of their status. you see that? How did I mean, did you see that they were just completely defeated, or did they help to bring out any type of awareness, or how did you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) that whole movement? AC: Well, the movement-- JJ: Did you agree with it, or maybe you didn’t agree with it? AC: -- well, as I mentioned to you earlier, it was early -- I was younger at the time, so I didn’t know a lot of the -what was happening when it was happening. My exposure and my education came later, after I got into Northeastern and started learning about the political agenda that was out there for the Puerto Rican community. But I saw it as an people that didn’t live it, ’cause I could have shared the experience of living it. I learn-- even though I didn’t know at the time, was living it, I could share the experience. I said, “Oh, I saw this. I remember this.” And it was an awareness that, [00:56:00] like any other movement that threatens the, you know, the normal -- what they consider normal, like the city hall considered normal, 44 �you know, there was a threat to that. You know, they saw that, and I saw -- they used their tactics to break it up. You know, to create chaos among the group. Because, you know, I saw the chaos that was happening among the group, within the people. The Latino brothers that were organizing around the Young Lords organization as the political group. You know, they were -- they had a good -- they said, “Alright, we got a -- we got something to, you know, that we want to be part of, and everything.” And eventually, because of that, you know, they were, you know, things started to happen with -- and that started to, you know. For the community, it was good. JJ: What do you mean things were happening? (inaudible). AC: Well, you know, things started happening. They started seeing, you know, the conflict within the group itself, you know, people breaking off. disagreed. They didn’t, disagr-- they just [00:57:00] The drug festered. A lot of those guys that I talked about dying on heroin, they were all part of it. And they started, you know, they got hit with the heroin. Heroin came out of nowhere, just -- it became available to everybody. And a lot of people chose it. They got involved and got hooked on heroin. So we, you know, a lotta... 45 �JJ: So did you see that as a way of somebody trying to stop (inaudible)? AC: That was exactly it, ’cause they infiltrated. You know, you had people that were, you know, saying they were part of this group, but they were part of -- they weren’t part of the group. YThey were -- you could tell they were in there for another purpose. firsthand there. the heroin. And I don’t know, I wasn’t I wasn’t there that I saw the bring in But you know, out of nowhere, the community became a heroin haven. There was so much heroin. Everybody -- so many people were on it, and that’s why, I said earlier, so many died. of AIDS epidemic. saw. Because they were, you know, But that was a [00:58:00] tactic that I And everybody realized, how do we, you know, how do we stop this movement? Because the Young Lords were a movement that created a movement, and that’s what happened. They were able to, what I think was something that was able to happen in Humboldt Park. If it would have been for the Young Lord movement that occurred in Lincoln Park and continue to struggle throughout the years in Humboldt Park, would have been pretty difficult to do what they did. You know, they were not able -- they were able to do that because they saw the experience that occurred in Lincoln Park. They saw the experience that occurred in Wicker 46 �Park, and they had the example to look back to the Young Lord movement and say, “Wait a minute. Bottom line, it was resistance. We got to resist.” “We have to resist. just can’t sit here and let this happen.” happened. We And that’s what You know, they were able to put a stop to the gentrification in Humboldt Park for, like I said, almost two decades, until it started to fester again, to where it’s at today. JJ: Okay, anything -- [00:59:00] that was good (inaudible; laughter). Anything else that maybe we need to add, that you think that we need to -- hold on one second. (adjusts camera) AC: Well, going back to the BUILD organization and my involvement, as I mentioned to you, I kinda saw as a youngster, you know, somebody out there working. But, you know, that history goes way back to the Young Lords and other all the older groups. ’Cause they had some street workers that were part of another program before BUILD, called the Detached Workers Program, that was out of the YMCA. There was a -- on Division and [Action?]. There used to be a Division Street Y, and they they got funding from the federal government. And this was something happening throughout the city of Chicago. ’Cause on the South Side, it was happening with the Blackstone Rangers, 47 �social service organizations getting funding to work with them. And in our neighborhood, it was the YMCA got the funding to do a program, and they called it the Detached Workers ’cause it was on the streets. Streetwork, not in the building. ’em to the building. streets.” [01:00:00] They said, “Don’t bring Just work with them out in the So they had workers out there in Lincoln Park. They were working with Lords, the Black Eagles, and the different groups there. And, like most programs, the Detached Workers, because it was a solely federal funded program, whenever the people sitting around the desk in Washington said, “Eh, we don’t want to fund that anymore, you know. Gangs is not a big issue for us anymore in our - - in those neighborhoods, we don’t wanna. something else.” Let’s do So they pulled the funding. said, “No more funding, no more program.” The YMCA And that’s how Bill got started, because Bob Jemilo and Hank Bach were running the Detached Workers Program out of the Division Street Y. And they said, “Wait a minute, we got a good thing going.” They knew what that program was working. It was getting a lot of the guys -- primarily guys and but it was women as well -- out of the violence and gangs and putting them into college. ’Cause they had a connection with the city college that was right down -- back then it 48 �was right down the street on Milwaukee Avenue, Mayfair College. [01:01:00] And they were just putting guys through GED, through BUILD, and right into city colleges. And, you know, getting -- that’s how people were, you know, movin’ away from the poverty and the things they had going, that gang structure was all about. “Hey, I got some college in me. And they were able to say, Now I can get a job. can go to ComEd, I can go to Peoples Gas. I I can get some - - I can get a job that can I can support my family with.” So that’s how the BUILD model came out. They took it from the Y. They started it. They got funding from the Board of Directors of the YMCA, the people -- the CEOs of ComEd, Marshall Field, Signal Corporation. They, you know, Bob Jemilo was pretty, you know, sharp guy. So he kinda, you know, maintained a good relationship with those kind of people there. And he went to directly to them, said, “I need you to give me money to start to keep this program going. I’m gonna start my own organization. call it BUILD.” I’m gonna You know, they, they came up with the name in a process, but that’s how they started BUILD. JJ: Do you remember similar tactics that they used to get to the street [01:02:00] gang members? AC: It was the same model. The same model it was, you know, you put somebody out in the neighborhood where they grew 49 �up, you know. So the detached workers had guys like Lacey and [Mingo?] that were part of the, you know, they grew up in that, in the neighborhood of Lincoln Park, so they were the ones out there. They started, you know, [droppin’ center?] on Halsted Street. earlier? The one that you mentioned Street. That was on that -- Mingo was running on Halsted I didn’t hang out there. You know, I was born Orchard at that time. JJ: The Concerned Puerto Rican -- AC: The Concerned Puerto Rican Youth Program there. But it was, you know, through the Detached Workers Program that he was able to do that. And then they all became staff of BUILD after ’69 you know. I that I learned. But it was the same tactics that Was, you know, you go out through the neighborhood where you grew up, and you work with the guys, ’cause they know you. They know oh, Freddy used to be a Saint here, before that. So, you know, I’m able to go and say okay, I want to, you know, you use sports as a tool. It’s always -- the tool was sports. softball league. together. I’m gonna run a I need you guys to get [01:03:00] And then you will get somebody in leadership to say, “Okay, I need you to be the team captain and get me all the names.” develop a roster. And you start getting the names, and you So that roster becomes your membership 50 �list, and you start developing on the list. need to tackle? leader here? Who do you You know, I gotta -- let’s see. Who’s the I gotta make sure I get this guy on my side. And you go, you start workin’ with that individual, and you get that guy into school, or you get that guy a job. everybody else wants to do the same thing. And And that’s the tactic that you use, and that’s the model that we used. that was the approach through the Detached Workers. So It was the model that was used at BUILD in -- throughout the years. It’s changed throughout the years, but that’s, you know, the main idea was that. JJ: Did you guys do (inaudible) take ’em all out in the city at all, or? AC: Every fall was a camp. when I first started. The one I told you about where, My first day at BUILD was, you know, Friday, take off on a bus and go to camp couple hours away to Michigan, Camp Channing. year. That was the model. They had it same place every You take ’em out because, you know, you take ’em [01:04:00] to the woods, they’re not the same people there on the streets. different person. Then it was a completely And so they are experiencing that. And then they’re, you know, they don’t have to front, you know. That, you know, they could get along with, you know, Latin Kings can get along with Latin Eagles. You know, but in 51 �the neighborhoods they can’t. could. But in Camp Channing, they They could sleep together in the same bunk room. They could get up and eat breakfast in the same bunk room. And those kind of things develop relationships that I saw firsthand how they saved lives. You know, ’cause you get caught in the streets, and I know I seen people get caught. Like Robert Gonzalez was one of my staff at BUILD, would always tell a story, says, “Man.” ’Cause he went to Lakeview High School, and they -- he was a Latin Eagle. The Latin Kings were their rival. on Ashland by Irving Park. were about to do him in. him from camp. And the Kings caught him And they were, you know, they And then they said -- they knew They knew him from softball. They said, “Oh, that’s Robert Gonzalez, that’s Bulldog. He’s cool. Let him go.” stuff. [01:05:00] They let him go and that kind of That’s the way, that kind of thing. see how that worked, because they weren’t. People didn’t They weren’t really there to see how that kinda, you know, how that saved the person’s life or from a beating or something. But being able to mix gangs and guys together in sports or in trips like a weekend at camp. The weekend at camp is one of the best, ’cause they -- you got 48 hours with these guys together. They get to know each other for real. So when they come back to the streets, you know, they think 52 �twice before they gonna, you know, get on jump on each other, shoot at each other, anything like that. So that does help a little bit. JJ: (inaudible) is there anything else? Otherwise [this?] should (inaudible). AC: That’s it. I think that’s good. END OF VIDEO FILE 53 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b965189f21db9beb38c4d4b0ad06ba4c.mp4 410ac00d330e9fe49872194892e3ab83 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Alfredo Calixto vídeo entrevista y trancripción Descripción Spanish language Description entry Alfredo “Freddy: Calixto es parte de la familia quien fueron unos de los primeras familias que se movieron a Chicago en el principio de los 1950s. Nacido en Caguas Puerto Rico, Señor Calixto vivió por el desplazamiento de las familias Puertorriqueñas de La Clark hacia Lincoln Park, donde creció. Sus padres y la mayoría de sus hermanos fueron parte de la Caballeros de San Juan y Damas de María. Su padre también trabajo con Hacha Viejas, una organización social que era activa en el vecindario. Señor Calixto describe su pelea contra discriminación en Lincoln Park y como esas experiencias lo inspiro a dedicarse a la lucha para los jóvenes Latinos. También a sido parte de la Executive Director for Broader Urban Involvement and Leadership Development (BUILD), una organización sin lucrativa en Chicago que fue creada en 1969. Hoy, Señor Calixto, es el vicepresidente por la Instiutional Advancement en St. Augustine College, que es la única institución bilingüe en el medio oeste de educación mayor. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Juventud--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Calixto_Alfredo Title A name given to the resource Alfredo Calixto video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Calixto, Alfredo Description An account of the resource Alfredo “Freddy” Calixto and his family were among the first Puerto Rican families to move to Chicago in the early 1950s. Born in Caguas, Puerto Rico, Mr. Calixto lived through the displacement of Puerto Rican families from La Clark to the Lincoln Park Neighborhood where he grew up. Mr. Calixto describes struggling with discrimination in Lincoln Park and how these early experiences inspired him to commit himself to advocating for Latino youth. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Youth--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-08 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/872ac31a1759c700779820c03bdb6e62.pdf b7265ba1b3c44c5295b1827efbffdc2a PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Elaine Brown Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/10/2013 Runtime: 01:00:07 Biography and Description Oral history of Elaine Brown, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on May 10, 2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you give me your name, date of birth, where you were born. ELAINE BROWN: Not date of birth. Nobody does that. JJ: Okay. Where you were born or something like that. EB: Hi, I’m Elaine Brown. I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. JJ: Okay. We’ll -- like your family or something like that. Are they all from Philadelphia or...? EB: Well, my mother was born in Philadelphia and my father was -- I don’t know where my father was born because I didn’t really know him. Until I was 13, I never met him, didn’t even know he existed. And he, as it turns out, was a doctor in Philadelphia but had been, you know -- [and?] he was married. And so, my mother was this kind of other woman, you know. And she had this illegitimate child, which was me. JJ: [00:01:00] Were you the only child or...? EB: I was the only child that -- of the two of them as far as I know. He had no children at all and I was actually the only child left in the -- on his side of the family I was the only one -- he was the only one that produced a child. JJ: Okay so you grew up in what part of Philadelphia or...? EB: I grew up in a rough area of North Philadelphia until I was about, I don’t remember, 15 or something. And we moved a lot of places in between but mostly we stayed on -- my address was an address on a street called York 1 �Street. It’s one of the most difficult areas in Philadelphia, and Philadelphia is a very sad city. JJ: What do you mean? Just kinda describe what you mean. EB: It’s sad because where I grew up is very poor and it’s in the city, so there’s no relief. There’s no grass, there’s no trees, there’s no nothing like that. And then at the same time there’s no real entertainment [00:02:00] in Philadelphia, in the sense that you can’t go anywhere. Like in New York, you could at least get out of the hood and go somewhere, but in Philadelphia there’s nowhere to really go. So, you know, you were sorta stuck in the neighborhood and I hated that. I hated the neighborhood. It was rough, there was always a gang fight. You know, you always had to watch back and, you know, this kinda thing. JJ: Okay and then -- EB: Now is this part of thing or you just using it -- JJ: Yeah j -- No, no, no, just part of thing it’s, ’cause it’s an oral history so we just trying to get a little -- EB: Oh, I see. JJ: --little personal there, but not too personal. EB: (yawns) I’m so sorry. JJ: So, whatever you -- EB: I’m gonna stop yawning. JJ: Whatever you want to say. EB: Okay. JJ: Okay. But okay so then you move where when you were 15? 2 �EB: So, you want to know something about my background? JJ: Little bit about your background. EB: Okay. So, a lot of this I wrote about in my book -- JJ: Okay. Yeah. Whatever you want. EB: -- A Taste of Power. [00:03:00] And so, the bottom line of my life as an individual was that I grew up very poor in a house of women, all of whom were very strong and independent and crazy, I would say. My mother, my grandmother, and my aunt, which was my mother’s sister. But by the time I was entering kindergarten I was taken to a very special school for children who were considered smart, or whatever. And my mother was able to finagle that. And most of the children there were Jewish and well to do, from my perspective. So, in the daytime during the school year, during the week, I would go to the little, practically all white, Jewish school and I would be Jewish, in my mind. I’d wanna fit in. And then I realized [0:04:00] I had to go back into the bowels of North Philadelphia. So, by the time I would get back to North Philadelphia, I would be Black. And this caused tremendous conflict for me internally in terms of identity and all that sort of thing. JJ: Okay, so -- EB: I just have to yawn, I’m so sorry. JJ: No, no, that’s not -- EB: You want to turn the camera off? You don’t care. JJ: I know it’s kinda late. It’s gettin’ late. We just did this panel discussion and it’s late. 3 �EB: Oh, God. Just give me a chance. I’m sorry. (yawns) Okay, go ahead. JJ: Do you wanna drink some water or something? EB: No. JJ: Okay. So, during the day you’re Jewish and at night, you Black basically? EB: Right. JJ: And so -- EB: So, I never fit into either world I lived in. I didn’t fit in where the Blacks were, plus I was going -- my mother had me in ballet school, taking piano lessons, which I later [0:05:00] believe -- or when I thought about it later, I realized it was probably my father. My father was a rich -- relatively rich Philadelphia doctor. He was a neurosurgeon. How many Black neurosurgeons? But he had a wife and she never gave him any children, and I was clearly his child because once I saw him, but more than that, his father, I look exactly like this man, but exactly. So, I had a sense that by going to these, you know, ballet lessons and piano lessons I didn’t fit into the hood. And I didn’t fit in where the white kids went to school, so I just was very, very conscious of how alone I was in the world. JJ: And so, you didn’t fit into nobody, basically you’re saying. EB: I never felt that I fit in with the Blacks or with the whites. But I fit in when I was there. As far as they knew, [0:06:00] I fit in. Whatever they were, I was. JJ: But internally you just felt -- EB: Internally I didn’t feel I fit anywhere. And as a result, I felt I fit nowhere. JJ: Okay so now you’re 15 and you moved out of Philadelphia -- EB: No, no, no, no. 4 �JJ: (inaudible) EB: So, when I was 13 or so we moved into the public housing project, which was a step up for us. (laughs) And then we -- JJ: Different part of town or? EB: No, in North Philadelphia. Very close, as a matter fact. And then we moved to an area called Tioga and, um, I can’t remember but we moved a lot after that. Finally, we moved to Germantown which, at that time, was considered a very, very upscale Black area. So, I was so happy we lived there. And that was, like, the year of my graduation from high school. JJ: What high school? EB: [0:07:00] I went to the Philadelphia High School for Girls, which was also a very special school. You had to take aptitude tests, or you had to take an entry level test if you hadn’t gone to a school that was approved or whatever. There was a big competition among the top 10 high schools, and American Girls High was among them. But Central High, which was for boys, was always ahead of Girls High in terms of scoring. Test score and so forth. Okay, I gotta wake up. I’m sorry. JJ: And where did the -- how do you get from Philadelphia to Oakland or -- EB: Well to California -- JJ: -- to California? EB: When I was around 22, I decided that I couldn’t take anymore of Philadelphia. I had one thing that happened that sort of, you know, pushed me over the edge, as it were, was that I had this little Jewish boyfriend when I was 16 [0:08:00] and 5 �I was madly in love with him. And I just knew we were gonna get married, and I had this vision, you know, of us going off into the sunset. You know, one of those kinds of things. And the first thing he did was -- I said I wanted to go to a movie, a walk-in theater ’cause we went to drive-ins all the time. And he said, “No. I can’t go there because I might see someone in my family.” And I thought, “And what?” Because I had become so superficial and so self-absorbed, I didn’t think that it mattered. I thought I was so above the average Black. And he said we couldn’t go because of that. And then later, we went somewhere in his car. He had a Lincoln Town Car. This is a 17-year-old boy. And it was a Friday night and we went by the synagogue where his parents attended. [0:09:00] And they were just letting out. And when he saw that, he goes, “Oh my God, duck.” That one word killed me. And after that, we kinda broke up. And so, I don’t know why I’ve told you this because I’m really getting sleepy. I’m so sorry. I’d almost ask you to do this early in the morning, rather than now, ’cause I’m really sleepy. But what do you wanna do? JJ: Well -- EB: I’m tryin’ to move but I lost my train of thought though, just then. JJ: Well, you said that he said, “duck”. EB: Yeah, no, no. That’s -- I remember the story. I’m talkin’ about where was this coming from? Where was I going with this story? What was the reason I described that to you? Oh, why I left Philadelphia. See I was trying to make the thread, okay. All right, so we sort of separated and then I went to Temple University. And [0:10:00] one day I just heard from him, out of the blue, and he 6 �said, “I’ve been trying to reach you.” And this, and that, and the other. And so, I agreed to meet him, and he wanted to have sex with me. And I thought, “You figure because I’m some Black girl and, you know, that I’m easy and this is how this is gonna go?” So, I said, “I never want to see you again.” And I walked away from and away from school. Then I got a job, and the whole Philadelphia was driving me crazy. Between him, my father, my mother, all these things, and one day I just picked up and went to LA. Because I had an aunt there, but I didn’t really know her that well. One of my mother’s sisters. JJ: Okay, and so you -- What happened after that, after you got to LA? I mean, what did you -- did you get involved in the party right away? EB: No, no, no. I mean, here it was 1965, Watts is blowing up, and [0:11:00] I could care less. You know, I was just in Philadelphia trying to make my way. I mean, in Los Angeles trying to make my way. And eventually I did some really ugly things, that I describe in my book, to survive. I didn’t have any money and so I tried to turn tricks. And eventually I got a guy, like, my neighbor. Literally, I was homeless at the time. I mean, like, for one day. Not like, homeless, but one day. I didn’t know where I really fit in. And that was the day I went and applied for a job at The Pink Pussycat, which was strip club. But I wasn’t -- I was gonna be a cocktail waitress, and so I was. And it was sort of like the bunny clubs in a sense, but we were the pussycats, you know. So, we had, like, a feather boa around our neck and it draped down and then, like a tail. And [0:12:00] when men would -- so anyways, so that’s where I worked. I was only concerned about my own, you know, survival. So, I had nothing to do with the Black Panther Party 7 �at that time. Eventually, I was living in an area called Westwood, which is sort of a UCLA -- well, it’s the hub of where UCLA is. It is very well-to-do, upscale. And I moved in there... I lost the train of thought again. I’m sorry. JJ: (inaudible) EB: I’m really getting sleepy. I don’t know what to tell ya. I just am really punchy, sleepy. JJ: Okay. EB: I know you don’t wanna stop because you had the opportunity to do this. I’m willing to get up early in the morning, get dressed early, but right this moment I can’t even tell you where I was going with that. JJ: Okay. I don’t want to-- EB: Huh? JJ: Yeah, if you can’t... (break in audio) JJ: (inaudible) EB: Yeah, I left Philadelphia because I thought that Philadelphia was a problem in my life. In other words, I decided that the issues of -- the problems of life existed all in Philadelphia. EB: There was [00:13:00] the absence of my father and the knowledge that he was in world but I didn’t know him. And there was this love affair I had with this Jewish boy who caused me to leave Temple University. But then I was there a couple more years. And there was nothing in Philadelphia that made sense to me. All of my history there was depressing for me. But the real deal, you know, as one 8 �finds out later in life, was really my mother. But that’s another conversation. JJ: Bet. But you said somethin’ about he told you to duck or somethin’. EB: Yeah, well that -- well I told you you had to pick up the story from where we wanted. I’m not gonna -- that is not the key story of my life. Okay? JJ: Okay. EB: It’s just a story that defines the -- JJ: I’m sorry. EB: -- racism as I experienced it because I had an illusion about myself, as most Black people do in America. We’re always, as Du Bois says, “We live a dual reality.” We have to live in the white world and we have to live in the Black world, and the white world is the dominant world culturally, economically, socially, politically, in any way. So, we have to either become white [00:14:00] and adapt to being white, or we have to realize that we are living in an inferior parallel universe. And so, at the time, I thought I was, you know, above other Black people. I wasn’t really that Black, and I had this nice little Jewish boyfriend, and so forth. And that was when I was 16, but moving ahead, I ran into him again at Temple University, and that caused me to leave school but that didn’t cause me to leave Philadelphia. There were a number of reasons, as I started to say, and those reasons had to do with my self-imposed idea that Philadelphia was, in and of itself, a problem. The poverty that I grew up with, I detested. I detested myself, and thinking about myself as a person who, I wasn’t sure whether I was Black or white, I -- there wasn’t anything in my life, about me, that I liked. Nothing, zero, and I thought it was Philadelphia. So, if I left Philadelphia, I could 9 �take on a new life [00:15:00] and a new persona. And the place farthest away, that I knew how to get to and had some information about, was Los Angeles. So, I just arbitrarily quit my job one day and I had 300 dollars in a savings account or something, which I thought was a lot of money. After I bought a ticket, it weren’t JJ: What kind of work were you doing? EB: I was working at the Philadelphia Electric Company or something, as a clerk. You know, nothing. I was drifting. My life was not mine. I did not have an identity. I didn’t have a sense of myself, and what I did have a sense of, I hated. And so, I couldn’t get out of me, you know. So, if you can just run and not look in the mirror, and that’s how I felt, you know, that I was not happy with the person that I was. And I really didn’t even know who I was in terms of anything. I was completely confused about myself and, more importantly, I didn’t wanna be me. [00:16:00] But I didn’t have an idea of who I did wanna be, so I just adapted it, adopted other people’s things and adapted to whatever there was out there. So, I didn’t have a plan. I didn’t have anything. And of course, I had a family that, you know, sort of my whole life lead to that. I didn’t have a place to be. I didn’t fit in with the Blacks, as I talked about, I didn’t fit in with the whites, and I didn’t like either one anyway. And I didn’t like me, so really, it was running from me to Los Angeles. And I thought I could sort of shed whatever I was and somehow magically become some new person that I would like, or even -- I couldn’t imagine how could like themselves. I mean, you have no idea as to the level of self-hatred that I lived under for the first 25 years of my life, or less, little less. 10 �And when I got to Los Angeles, I just went there on a lark. I got a hotel room, I had no money, and then it occurred to me after about a week -- and I --[00:17:00] the first or second night, I met some old guy and he offered me some money. And I gave him the sex, he didn’t give me the money, right? (laughter) EB: And then he set me up with somebody else and it was the same kind of deal it was this -- (inaudible) Actually, I talk about this in my book. When I look back on it, I don’t even know who that person was, and I feel so sorry for her, meaning me. I was so vulnerable because I had nothing of myself that mattered, you know. So, when I, you know, I just drifted around and I had no money at all. And eventually, I got a job selling books door-to-door, and then I moved in with these girls into this house. And we were kinda frivolous, we were young, and we just spent the money on drinking and carrying on. I didn’t even know them, we just worked together in this crazy place which eventually became part of [00:18:00] a cult. I can’t remember the guy’s name or not, if I could think of it right now, I’d tell ya. But anyway, it became some sort of a new-age thing that people were doing at the time and they were, you know... But this sales piece was out of that, I mean, in other words he was really just selling an idea then. But anyway, so, in the course of things, I ran into this little hippie guy who’s on acid every day. But he gave me a place to live because we were kicked out of that house, and I didn’t have any money, and have any place to live, and I didn’t have a job. And he suggested I work at this place called The Pink Pussycat, just because he was a person that just hung out in the world. He was a street guy for (inaudible) oneroom apartment. And he was always on -- either smoking weed or whatever. 11 �And he took me down -- I didn’t even have an ID and I didn’t have an address. So, when I went for this job, it really was a reflection of who I was. I didn’t exist, really, you know, and that’s how I felt about myself. [00:19:00] I didn’t exist. I was, like, watching a movie and I wasn’t sure who I was in the movie. Or I wasn’t even in the movie, it was a movie of other things. And the horror of that is, when left alone, I didn’t have a movie. Do you know what I mean? In other words -So, I realize this is not a psychological journey, but it is a part of what motivates you to do things. And so, I wasn’t motivated, I was just drifting. And so, I landed in this job at The Pink Pussycat, and because I was the only black there, I was sorta popular. And I wasn’t too black if you know what I mean, like Obama’s not too black. And so, I went to The Pink Pussycat and within a couple of weeks I met this very rich white man, older man. He had come into the club with Frank Sinatra. The place had become very, very popular. And I was a cocktail waitress in false everything and, you know, sucked up this, and pushed out that, and, you know, everything, high heels, and just, you know, one step from being a ho. (laughter) EB: Well, maybe not even one step, but anyway. [00:20:00] And so, this guy, who was 55 and I was 22, said -- They took me to a party at Frank Sinatra’s house because, as I said, I was drifting. Okay, I’m going to a party at Frank Sinatra’s house, yeah. (laughs) And I thought they were taking me there as sort or like a prize, and I’d get maybe a 500-dollar tip. ’Cause we made a lot of money in the club, right. Even then, it was a lot of money. It’d be a lot of money today, almost, a 500-dollar tip. But it wasn’t something we couldn’t imagine, you know. A 100- 12 �dollar tip was pretty common, but 500... So, I figure I’m gonna make 500, 1000 bucks by just showing up and taking off my little coat, and there I’d have the little Pink Pussycat outfit on. But as it turned out, it wasn’t a big party. It was just this guy, and Frank Sinatra, and this guy named Jack Entratter, who was owner of the Sands Hotel, which was part of that whole mafia chain of hotels in Las Vegas. [00:21:00] So, this guy introduces himself, his name was Jay Kennedy and there’s been a lot of controversy about this, but I don’t feel anything -- I was a 22-year-old girl who met this extremely rich man who knew everything, and the first thing he started talking about was the march on Washington. I was like, “Well, why is he telling me about this? What has this to do with me? I don’t have anything to do with these negros and their issues of civil rights.” (laughter) And the fires of Watts were burning all around while I was saying all this. Can we stop for a minute? ’Cause I just need to... (break in audio) EB: So, when I met this guy, the first thing he talked about at this party where there was nobody, but I was like the party for him, I guess. But since I had done so much other stuff in my life at that point, I didn’t see anything wrong with it, but I knew I had to get the money first. (laughter) Or, as they say, get the money upfront. So, I said to this -- he’s telling me [00:22:00] about the march on Washington and I’m thinking, “Is this Frank Sinatra’s house?” I mean, it’s like, we’re in Bel Air, Beverly Hills, whatever. And I’m like, did I just not have a place to live two weeks ago. And so, around four o’clock in the morning, he’s still talking, and I’m really sort of half listening. But I’m thinking, “Well what do I do 13 �now? How do I get out of this house, or how do we get to the money? Whatever it is we’re getting ready to do.” And he says maybe I wanted to stay, and that he had a suite in the house, in Frank’s house, and this is his good friend, and how I could stay in the bedroom. He would sleep in the living room. And I was thinking, “Somebody has a house with a suite in it?” You know? (laughter) Wasn’t thinking about just sleeping, I was thinking about... And it was so incredible. And the next morning this maid came with this orange juice and, you know, and coffee [came out?]. And I had on my -- I had a robe on, they gave me a robe. He gave me a robe. So, I had to put my Pink Pussycat [00:23:00] outfit on to go back home in. Which my little apartment I lived in. By then, I had an apartment because I was making so much money, I could even afford an apartment. And I had moved out from [Bruce?] I’m pretty sure. And they had a chauffeur, a guy named George, who actually became sort of a famous character in the life of Frank Sinatra, black guy, very handsome. And he took me home in this limo, right? And this guy, Jay, called me and took me out to the Beverly Hills Hotel, and we had like a bottle of champagne that probably cost, you know, somebody’s rent. You know what I’m saying? That kind of thing. And some caviar, and he had some violins, and I was like -- this was a universe I had no knowledge of. But it’s not hard to fall into, you know? (laughs) It’s not hard to eat well. So, and I certainly had no class attitudes or anything else about any of this. As a matter of fact, I would have drifted toward it because I had been, [00:24:00] you know, brought up in this universe of ballet and going to these white schools with all these rich white people and so forth. And after that, 14 �ultimately, I became his regular concubine, one could say. I was his lover. He was married and he lived in New York. And so, he would come and then he would set me up in a place, and then I left The Pink Pussycat after a while. And all he did was talk to me about Marxism, Leninism, and so forth and so on, and none of this made sense to me. What made sense to me was that I was valued somewhere in the world, in a world that I had no sense of myself as a person of value. And it was listening to him over those next two years that made me conscious of political differences, social class, race. He embraced me as a black woman, which I didn’t even do. And it's so funny because people say -- there’s a thing about him saying, [00:25:00] “Oh he might have been a CIA Agent.” And there’s people that have denounced me because I talk openly about this relationship. But it was transitional, and it was transformative in my life because I felt protected enough to examine myself and admit that I hated being black, but I didn’t necessarily want to be white. I didn’t like anything about myself, and it was he who sort of was a guide to those next two years and sort of -- But in guiding me and talking to me, I absolutely had to cling to him. And when I realized that we weren’t going to get married, that changed things. ’Cause, you know, when you’re young you think, “Oh yeah, this guy’s gonna leave his wife for me.” (laughter) You know, and you really think that. But the other thing is that, during the course of his being away, I met a black woman in the building I lived in, in Westwood, and she had an afro. And this is, we can say, a year and a half after the Watts uprising. Because I’m now -- I arrived just before that and I met this man during that period. [00:26:00] And so, she heard -- I had a piano and I was 15 �singing. I write songs. By that time, I had written, like, 500 songs. All of them about love and really confused things. And I was playing the piano and singing, and she asked me if it were me that she heard up in, you know, singing. And the first thing she said to me is, “How you doin’ sister?” And I’m thinking, “To whom (laughter) is she speaking? I am not anybody’s sister. Certainly not your sister.” Not in any meaning -- I understood her meaning but I didn’t care. So, I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Do you play piano?” I said, “Of course.” And she said, “Could you teach piano to some kids that I have a program in Watts?” I said, “Sure.” I had nothing else to do, I was this kept woman. Right? So, (laughs) I had this thing on called a fall. This is like a hairpiece and you slick your hair back and then you can slick this on like a comb. And then the hair -- so you don’t have to really worry about your hair. [00:27:00] You can slick it on and then... So, I had this hair, (laughter) you know, it was the ’60s, and I had these long eyelashes from the Pink Pussycat period. Right? And I remember I had this sundress on, I can remember it cost 200 dollars. This is 1966, 7? And some sandals, and I just remember how I looked, and I went down to Watts with her. (laughter) Into the Jordan Downs Housing Project. And when I got there, this was another transformative moment, first, it was like where I used to live in the, what was it called? Not Richard Allen, I can’t remember. All of a sudden, I can’t remember. But anyway, when I moved out of the first place I knew of that I lived in North Philadelphia, which was a very rough area, and we moved to the project. JJ: To Germantown? EB: Well, later we moved to Germantown, but in that first year we lived in the James 16 �Weldon Johnson Homes. (laughter) They always name these [buildings?] the Black -- the historic [00:28:00] Black figures. James Weldon Johnson, and we had moved up by getting into public housing. So, but this place was laid out like the place I had lived in, in the Jordan Downs Projects. And because it was sort of flat and spread out as opposed to high-rise, that kind of thing, and it was twostory. And so, the feeling of that reminded me of who I was because, at this point, I was this girl with these eyelashes, and this hair, and this kept -- this man. Right? And I was just gonna maybe do some charity work, or whatever I thought I was doing in the illusion -- in the imagery I had painted of myself for that day. And so, when I got down to the Jordan Downs Project, I was thrown back into my history in the hood where life was really hard. And then she opened the door to this project -- her apartment she had rented for this program, which was, you know, some child development program or whatever. [00:29:00] And I walked in there and there were all these little girls, all these little black girls in there. And they were just these little, sweet girls. Seven, eight, nine years old, and looking pretty unkept and unkempt. And she had nothing in there, like a few chairs, and then she had this bookshelf. And the only book on it was, I could just remember was called Yes I Can by Sammy Davis Jr., and I thought, “What a stupid fucking book that is.” And I knew who Sammy Davis Jr. was because I’m living with a man who’s Frank Sinatra’s best friend. Okay? And I mean, literally, if you were to talk to Dean and Sinatra today, or one of them, they would tell ya that this guy was his best friend. So, I’m looking at this book so I have all these reactions to it. And like, these little girls, who have nothing, you wanna have them look at 17 �Sammy Davis’s stupid ass book called Yes I Can. You know, like, if I really believe in myself, Oprah Winfrey, you know what I’m saying? (laughs) America’s a great place if you really try [00:30:00] hard and you really believe in yourself. And I looked at them and I kept saying -- and they were, like, calling me Ms. Brown and I was thinking, “You don’t need piano lessons. You need a fucking life. I know ’cause I’ve been you. No, wait a minute, I am you.” And it killed me. It was so powerful a moment in my life that, you see now even, I am moved by it because I was so ashamed that I had left them, and I was so ashamed that I couldn’t help them. And that I wanted to go back to my little world with Jay Kennedy, and Piper-Heidsieck champagne, and caviar, and a life in France or somewhere where we wanna live and be away from the regular things. And I wouldn’t have to worry about these little girls in the world I would be living in. Right? But I couldn’t, and I could not -- I said to my friend, this girl, [Beverly?], that lived in the building, I said, “I can’t do this. I can’t teach these girls. I have nothing to offer them.” [00:31:00] But I did go back, and that was the beginning of my, what the Chinese call [fanshen?], you know, what Christians might be calling born again. It was a consciousness raising moment that was so incredible. So, I had to tell Jay Kennedy, “Look, we need to get married, like, right now. I need to be in France. I cannot be in America. I can’t look at any of this anymore. And if I can’t get married to you, I don’t ever want to talk to you anymore because I have something else I have to do.” And so, I just left him and everything, and then I had to get a job, which wasn’t easy. And I went back to Jordan Downs and taught these girls for a while and... But as a result, I became 18 �immersed in the rising Black movement, and I became Black, you know. And I took off my fall, you know? (laughs) And I curled my hair a little bit, and [00:32:00] I started going down to a place called the Black Congress, that Beverly had told me about. And it was a meeting place after the Watts uprising, everybody was Black, and everybody’s running around, you know. And so, all the various organizations that were arising, or that were coming into being, but everything from the Welfare Rights Organization to Karenga’s US Organization. All of those were in this building and they had formed some sort of a coalition, but it wasn’t really a coalition because Karenga was running ’cause everybody was sort of afraid of him because he looked militant. (laughs) And so, I sort of found my way there because I could read and write, you know, that put me in a new category among the -- in the hood. And so, I did a lot of writing, and then I ran into these people from the Black Student Alliance and I became a part of that, even though I wasn’t a student. I got a job at UCLA at one point, so that kind of put me in UCLA. But mostly what I did was steal [00:33:00] stuff from there for the Black Student Alliance, and I relied on my skills from the hood, so I could resurrect some of that, right? Because I did come from there. And so, that was a big moment, we can say 1967 or so, and somewhere in there we heard about this Huey Newton getting shot. This was a distant, you know, sound. We didn’t really have very much -- nobody really knew much about this in October of ’67 when Huey was shot. But one thing I knew, I didn’t like Karenga because they were all into this super nationalistic stuff. And so, I had one of these guys say to me, you know, one of Karenga’s people ’cause I would see them ’cause I was 19 �there, like, volunteering. I was just immersed in Black life. And I had this guy say to me, I was wearing a miniskirt because I had plenty of them, and he said, [00:34:00] “Sistas don’t wear miniskirts. That’s what the white girls wear.” Something like that. So now, oh well now you want to call back the girl that grew up on 21st and [York?], you don’t see my face cut. ’Cause remember, while I did go up outta the subway on one end and was white, I was living in the hood and I was one of the baddest bitches there. So, because, I wasn’t gonna get hurt, so I had to be the most aggressive, the toughest, and so forth and so on. And so, whatever my reality was, I was certainly able to recall my skills from the street. And I said, “Well you know, when a brotha buys my clothes, then he can tell me what to do.” So, I always had a conflict with them, okay? And so, while we were there, one of these nights we had this meeting, and I was now on the council that the Black Congress -- I was a member of the Black Congress representing the Black Student Alliance, which was really pretty funny, when one thinks about it. And Karenga’s sitting there looking like, you know, some offshoot Buddha or something, and with [00:35:00] that high-pitched voice, and that effeminate air. But anyway, and in comes this guy and he says he’s from the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. And he’s got on this black leather, and he wants to talk about Huey Newton. He wants to appeal to the congressmembers, ’cause we’re at about, you know, 20 some organizations that were represented, to get support for the trial of Huey P. Newton. And Karenga’s like, “We don’t have time to talk about that. You’re not on the agenda brother.” And this and that, and that’s how he always talked, like this. His little high-pitched, little effeminate air. And there 20 �was a guy there named Crook, Brother Crook. And he was with -- I don’t know if he was with sn-- Oh, he had something called Community Alert Patrol, and they would follow the police, and take pictures, and stuff like this, right? And eventually he became a member of SNCC, but Crook was like my partner in that group. And he was like, “Well we want to hear what this brother has to say.” So, he said, “Well let’s vote on it [00:36:00] and have applicant consensus.” (laughter) He was so stupid. And so, his theory was that, unless we had a 100 percent vote, then we couldn’t go forward. So, everybody voted to hear what this guy had to say except him, so he said we can’t do it. We’re like, “You’re overruled.” And nobody had ever done this to him before, at least within the short life of the Black Congress. So, this guy [Earl?] came and talked about Huey Newton, and how he had offed a pig, or he was charged, you know, and these were words nobody had ever heard before. Not even these militant nationalists, right? ’Cause they were all about, you know, Black cultural, you know, something back to Africa. The Africa that they had designed, by the way, from the American point of view. So, we were all just stunned by this whole thing. Black guys with these guns, everybody had a gun, but [00:37:00] nobody was using a gun. (laughs) So, this guy was something else and we all -- so, I started talking to him and... So, bit by bit, I ran into a few of these people, and I had this friend named [Sandra Scott?], she was in the Black Student Alliance. And she was helping me to read things, you know, reading Wretched of the Earth, which was the Bible of that time. And reading and all this stuff, I was just, like, bombarded now with consciousness, all of this was opening up. You know, 21 �it’s like I couldn’t stop learning and absorbing things. And so, eventually we ran into -- I ran into Eldridge Cleaver some kinda way, and one of these, you know, movement parties was emerging and he coming -- he was this figure that was truly bigger than life. Eldridge was like six-five or something, was very handsome. And so, it was such a big moment, you know, we couldn’t imagine such a thing. Seeing these people and these guys were all so, you know, so something. I don’t know. They were [00:38:00] such men, you know. And I began to write songs about black men, for which I was soundly criticized by a lot of feminists, by the way. So-called feminists. But at the time, all of this was swirling around, and somewhere in the middle of this, Bunchy Carter appears. And we’re all having some sort of poetry reading. You know, like, now they have this slam, everybody’s talkin’ about the man, everybody talking, right? Just talk, talk, talk, talk. And in comes, into this room that the Black Congress had this big event, like one of these big community events, and people get up and say their poems. And I got up and said one too about how the men were treating women. But anyway, Bunchy Carter appears in this room with, like, 20 guys, right? From the street. And they’re all, you know, they got their hats on ace-deuce, and they’re all strapped. All of ’em. And they line the room. Everybody’s like, “Ooh.” And Bunchy says, “Well I come to say that we have just formed the Black Panther Party [00:39:00] Southern California chapter.” And he says -- and then he has somebody to unfurl the Huey Newton famous poster in the chair, and he says, “And from this point forward, everybody will be putting this picture up. Because Huey did what you niggas is thinkin’ about, talkin’ about doin’. He 22 �challenged the police.” You know, and he said, “And that’s what we gonna do. We here to say that the pig can no longer come through this community and hurt us and hurt our people.” And that, “Because if the pig comes here tonight, what would we do brother?” Guy on the wall said, “We would put his dick in the dirt.” I said, “Oh Lord what is going on here?” (Laughter) It was another pivotal moment because you could not now unknow what you just saw or heard. You could now say -- you can write your little articles and you can your little dashiki on, and you can walk around her talkin’ this shit, but now you know something new has happened. And everybody in LA knew it. Everybody was terrified, [00:40:00] from the police to the Black militants. Because now, a line had been drawn. A reality had been presented. We were now engaged in something different. We’re challenging the government directly. This was not about a program, this was about a challenge to the fundamental structure in America, and we all got it, and we got it that night. And that word was like wildfire, that there was a Black Panther Party chapter. The Black Student Alliance people became afraid. I mean, everybody was, like, shaking. Not because we’re afraid of the Panthers, but we were now afraid, or people were afraid, that we would have to come up to do something, right? So, when I met this Eldrige Cleaver and, you know, I was just madly in love with him. He was just absolutely this. And I spent a night with him, and so this was like, “okay.” And within a week or so later, he was -- it was after Martin Luther King was killed. That was [00:41:00] before, when I was with him, and after Martin Luther King was killed, two days later, there was an incident with Eldridge and Bobby Hutton. And Bobby Hutton, who was a young member 23 �of the Black Panther Party, 17 years old, was killed by police and Eldridge was wounded. And so, I walked into the Black Panther office, like, about the next day. And it was a surrender, it wasn’t just, “Oh, I’m joining.” It was a surrender. It was, “Okay, this is it. We’re down now.” And it’s no more turning back, and there’s no more pretending that I don’t understand because of all that I learned from Jay, and all that I learned in the middle, and all the consciousness that I now had. There is no unknowing, there’s no pretending. This is the way it is. We gon-- either I’m gonna throw down with this, or I’m gonna live a fake life for the rest of my life. And I cannot live that ’cause I did that for 20 some years. So, this is who I had to be, and this is who I needed to be. So, when I joined the Black Panther Party, it wasn’t, you know, just joining some little organization. It was surrendering my life, [00:42:00] but not in any sad way, but in a meaningful way. And saying, “Okay. This is who I am, and I surrender to this legacy, or this potential, or this life. And I will dedicate myself to it from this point forward.” And that’s what I did, you know, for the next 10 years. You know, watching a lot of my friends, of course, be killed and being a little shocked but sort of -- we all kind of knew that this was what we signed up for, and it was not going to be, you know, I’m gonna have a little job and do this on the side, and this gonna be my volunteer work or... No this was my life. I was dedicating myself to eliminating the government that had so oppressed our people, and other people, and so forth and so on. And so, that was the journey to the Black Panther Party. JJ: So, you said some people got killed. Some of your friends. EB: [00:43:00] Yeah, a lot of people were killed. 24 �JJ: Who were some of them? EB: Well, in the beginning, you know, in my experience in the Black Panther Party, of course, you know, Bunchy Carter was the organizer of the Southern California chapter. And, as we would learn, we had a chapter that was so -- the LAPD was so vicious that the Chicago PD looked up to them. (laughter) And so, at once we had -- it was a strange situation in Los Angeles because we had, you know, this whole Hollywood Universe with a lot of money, so we had probably -- eventually we would have more money than most chapters, just because we were in the Hollywood area. But at the same time, we had the most vicious police department, so we were always getting arrested, stopped, what have you. And in the beginning, when I started out working in the party, I’m not sure we had the newspaper regularly out by then. Well, maybe we had a little bit of a newspaper, [00:44:00] but it wasn’t the way it -- soon it became a very big part of the party’s - it was a big information instrument, obviously. And so, I’m trying to remember, eventually I was working very, very hard, and, you know, we were going to political education classes. And then we moved out of the Black Congress. We were in the Black Congress at some point. We had an office there, but the Karenga piece was getting too heavy, and we got an office in on Central Avenue, 41st and Central Avenue. So, I spent time there cleaning, like everybody. Tryin’ to figure out how we’d get equipment. You know, we basically were tryin’ to start up, we can say, and then going to classes. And then, eventually, at some point, I can’t recall, but I did have a job at the beginning. I had a small job in a poverty program. And there was a moment when I just went crazy. I had some sort of a 25 �total meltdown because it was like, now this was too much too soon or [00:45:00] something and it was all converging. And I had to go and see a therapist, and I went crazy, literally. And this woman gave me Thorazine. And I said, “I can’t be in the Black Panther Party. I know that I’m really scared. And I’m not gonna be in the Black Panther Party. But if I’m not in the Black Panther Party, I’m not gonna be in anything.” And so therefore, what do I do? I’m back to being the person that I hated being. And on one hand I was afraid, and I knew a lot of these people. Franco, and lil’ Tommy Lewis, and all these people that were joining the Black Panther Party in Southern California. They’re pretty, pretty panty, where all these people from the streets, you know, the gang members, the [Slawsons?] who had transformed themselves because of Bunchy. And, John Huggins, and Ericka Huggins and the -- and Ericka was the captain of the women, and so she was my leader, at the time. And she would say, “We might have to learn how to sleep with the enemy to get information [00:46:00] one day, or slit his throat the next.” And I was like, “Really?” (laughter) We had to do all that? I was terrified. And so, at some point, we can say in July or something, that had been, like, February or April, and by July I was afraid. Not afraid of anything that had happened, but, like, the potential. That this wasn’t really me, that I was really faking and that, just like my whole life, this was not real, and I hated myself. So, I spun out of control. And so, this doctor, instead of saying, you know, “What’s going on?” and... She gave me Thorazine, and Thorazine is a drug that is, uh, I mean, it’s for, I don’t know. I don’t know what it’s for. It’s supposed to calm you down, I guess. But they give it to elephants or something. 26 �(laughter) I mean, seriously, I was thinking -- I weighed 105 pounds and I was taking 100 milligrams of Thorazine a day. So, I moved to the Watts office of this poverty program, where nobody wanted to go, on 103rd Street. Which I could never get to, because I was on Thorazine, and so I would fall asleep on the bus all the time. And at some point, [00:47:00] they had this alleged program, of course after Watts, you know, everybody was offering poverty program money to every pimp, dope deal -- dope boy, well there weren’t that many dope boys, but you know what I mean. Everybody from the street that wanted to go in and walk in and get a program, they could get one, right? So, this program was called the Watts Happening Coffee House, and it had been transformed from -- it was burnt down -- Diamond Jim’s Furniture Store had been burnt down (laughter) and they had developed this program, but there was no real program there. It was just some money being handed off to this guy, was a leader of a gang in Watts, right? (laughter) It was like, “Here’s some money, please don’t kill us.” Right? So, ’cause that’s all the poverty program was and, but I loved it because I could fall asleep on Thorazine. I didn’t have to -- I was the only person there who knew how to type, read, or write, you know? So, I kept the books, so you had like 50 people on the payroll and there were only, like, 5 people there, you know? (laughter) So, I was the person that did all the paperwork, in between nodding out, right? And some point, John Huggins came down there to [00:48:00] Watts because he was looking for an office, another branch office for the Black Panther Party. And he came in there and he said, “Elaine, how you doin’? We miss you.” And I was like, “Oh no, we don’t miss me.” I couldn’t look at him, you know? 27 �You know, no, no. And he said, “What are you taking?” And I was thinking, “How did he know I was taking...?” (laughter) I’s sitting there nodding like somebody on heroin, right? But in the meantime, there was a, like, little bit of programming. So, on a Sunday they would have this sort of a jazz thing at the Watts Happening Coffee House, and there was a guy there Horace Tapscott. He had a band called the, it was, like, the Arkestra. The venue was very Africancentered and so forth, and they let me play songs with them. And so, I had this, like, little singing career. Not really, but, you know, singing this kind of, like, coffee house thing and... So, I say all that to say that that was what I was doing in between, and [00:49:00] Horace would take me back and forth. He started taking me back and forth home so I wouldn’t have to take all these buses and get lost, where I take hours to get anywhere (laughter) because I would fall asleep all the time. And then John came, and John said, “Elaine you gotta stop.” I said, “Oh, I can’t go back.” And he said, “Well, why don’t you get off of whatever you’re taking.” And I told him eventually. And he came to see me almost every day. “How you doin’ today?” And he said, “Why don’t you try to take three pills instead of four?” And I was terrified because I was so addicted to this stuff, at this point. And I wasn’t going to any therap-- I was just taking Thorazine now, you know? And she gave me an open-ended prescription, so I could just get it. Isn’t that weird, when you think about it? And I took that Thorazine, and I stopped taking four, I took three. And I was, like, “Wow, made through the day.” Right? And meantime my mother had moved to Los Angeles, which was just really the nemesis of my life, but that’s another conversation. And so [00:50:00] 28 �I’d be nodding out talking to her, whatever it was, and here just kinda twirling around. And then in August, Horace Tapscott said to me, “Did you hear about what happened earlier today at the corner of Mont Clair and Adams?” As we like to say now. And I said, “No.” And he said, “You know, three members of the Black Panther Party were killed by the police on that corner.” And he mentioned one of them, and he was Tommy Lewis, who was 17 years old. And he was like Ericka and John’s little son, even though there wasn’t that much difference in the ages. And we all loved little Tommy Lewis, and he was like Bobby Hutton. Just a little, fierce street boy, terrible, you know, tough, and he had been shot. And then there was this guy, Steve Bartholomew, 21 years old, and they had shot his head off his shoulders, right there in front of everybody on the corner of Adams and Mont Clair. And I was like, “Oh! No this is too much. This is too much.” So, John said, “We need you. We need you.” And so, [00:51:00] the more he said it, the more I went down to two pills, and one pill, and then no pills and went back and, you know, rejoined the party and began to live with John, and Ericka, and a bunch of other people in this house on Century Boulevard, which was in, like, Inglewood or somewhere outside of Watts, South Central LA, whatever. And for me, as I think back about it, as I characterize it, it was Camelot, you know? It was working every day and, you know, living in this collective with these really wonderful comrades. And it didn’t matter what happened to us because now we were -- it was clear to me that I was okay with me, at this point, and what I was doing. And so, we sold papers or whatever we did, talked about opening another office, and, you know, recruiting people for the party, all of the things, whatever 29 �we did. It was just day-to-day, every [00:52:00] day, you know. Cleaning guns (laughs), going out and learning how to -- going out to the Mojave Desert. (laughter) (phone ringing) You want to turn your...? JJ: Yeah. EB: Who is calling -- (break in audio) EB: Bringing my book up last night to be signed. It’s, like, being taught in every school. JJ: But what’s the name of it, again? EB: A Taste of Power. JJ: Oh, A Taste of Power. EB: Yeah, yeah. So, that was in, we can say late August, so from that point forward, we all then enrolled, amazingly -- when I say we all was John Huggins, and Bunchy, and Geronimo Pratt, and myself enrolled in UCLA all for our different reasons, in this program called the high potential program. And of course, when we got there, John and I were doing the main work. I mean, Bunchy would just come through from time -- he just did it as a satisfaction for his parole requirements. (laughter) And Geronimo sort of drove him there all the time. He was sort of Bunchy’s driver and other stuff. And so, John Huggins and I [00:53:00] used to do all the whatever work. And we would try to organize around -- against the war, you know, blah blah blah. And we did all these different things, and, in the course of things, we tried to build up the Black Student Union, which had sort of come into being, but really wasn’t anything but 30 �worryin’ about, you know, what kind of music was being played in the cafeteria, what have you. And so, in the course of all of that, you know, you had... (knocking) Come on in. AARON DIXON: Okay. EB: We’re finishing up. AD: Oh, here y’all are. EB: We’re on camera. No, come on in Aaron please. How ya doin’? AD: Doin’ good. EB: How you doin’ this morning? AD: How you guys doin’? EB: I’m doin’ good. I’m doin’ good. AD: That’s good. [Bread?] up. EB: So, we gonna finish up -- You want to get me to some of the things -- JJ: Yeah. EB: -- about the Puerto Rican things. But anyway, so let’s --I’ve had emotional moments, though, here. AD: Oh really? EB: Yeah. Yeah, you know, when you think about, you know, you can write this stuff and then it’s on the page and you’re finished, and then you have to revisit some of the points of how did you get here, so... JJ: Uh-huh. EB: So, okay. So, where are we? JJ: [00:54:00] We were -- 31 �EB: I hope you have a good editor. JJ: Yeah, no. We had a -- we were talkin’ ’bout some of the work that was being done in LA. EB: Yeah, so there we were doing all of our little stuff with John and with Bunchy. Going back and forth to school a lot. And so, there came to be this moment when, toward the end of the year... Are you getting a shot of Aaron? JJ: Our friend that came in. (laughter) Okay. EB: And so, toward the end of the year, there was this big confrontation because -no actually it didn’t happen at the end of the year, but there was a lot of confrontation with the US Organization at that point, and a lot of conflict. And at the very end of the year, two incredible things happened on December 31st. One was that Bunchy announced -- and we had some event in, I don’t remember where it was, but it was an auditorium. I don’t know why we were in an auditorium. And Bunchy announced and brought all these [00:55:00] Latino guys up on stage, and they all had on the brown beret. And he said, “This is the Brown Berets, and we are in a --” I don’t know if the word coalition -- I don’t think we used the word coalition. But, “These are our partners. So, we are announcing today, that the Brown Berets and the Black Panthers, we are one and the same. We are here to off the pig.” And whatever else they said, right? And all of us were like, “What? Brown Berets?” And that literally was the first, I’m sure, first sort of formal announcement. And that was amazing how conscious Bunchy was about that. And we had been conscious of that just before that because, you know, the big drink of the street in those days was what 32 �they called a short dog of Gallo wine. And they would pour some of the red wine out and put in some lemon juice, shake it up, and they called it shake ’em up, and that’d make you sweat and get hot fast because the lemon -- I don’t know, whatever the interaction of those two things was. But anyway, so he [00:56:00] forbid everybody from drinking Gallo wine. Which was really -- people might think that’s nothing, but it was a big deal. JJ: (inaudible) Yeah. EB: All to support the United Farm Workers. And so, the Brown Beret thing was just a step up, you know, because this was a more -- this wasn’t a labor union, it was a revolutionary organization that was going to work in the East LA area, but be affiliated with the Black Panther Party as we thought of it at that time. And then, that same night, Bunchy announced, later on, that one of our other comrades, Franco Diggs, had been murdered in Long Beach, and been shot in the head three times. And then, we knew Franco, and we knew he was very, very paranoid and crazy, and Franco. When I first met Franco, and I describe this in my book, one of the first things he said, “Oh, you know sista,” he was from New York. “You so beautiful,” he said. “You know, I would kill two pigs for you.” (laughter) I was like, “Really?” [00:57:00] “What you think about that?” And he (inaudible). I was like, “Sounds great.” You know, what do you say, you know? (laughs) “Have you ever seen a pig shot with a .45 automatic sista?” I said to him, (laughter) “You know, let me think. Mm, no.” “Why if I was this -- if the pig was standin’ over there and I was to take my weapon, and I were to fire at him right now, his body would fall to at a 45 degree --” I was like, “What?” (laughter) 33 �And he polished his bullets, and he put a special mi-- he loaded his own bullets, you know, with gunpowder, and he put garlic, that’s what he told us. And then that -- even if he hit someone in the leg, this is what he told us, and I mean to this minute, I believe it’s true I don’t know, and that they would be poisoned. They would get lead poisoning. AD: Yeah. That was somethin’ we did. Yeah. (inaudible) thing. EB: Yeah. And so, when Franco was killed, that was a big statement because Franco was, like, invincible. [00:58:00] Franco was one of the baddest motherfuckers out there so -- no, but who kills Franco? And then, of course, two weeks later, John and Bunchy were killed by Karenga’s FBI agent members and himself at UCLA, and I was, of course, there. And it was the most probably traumatic part of my life in the Black Panther Party, or of my life period. Which I do describe in A Taste of Power. Matter of fact, I dedicate an entire chapter to that date, January 17, because it was such a powerful thing. Because here was this guy, John Huggins, who had saved my life, so he was more than just a comrade, and a hero, and a leader of the chapter, and very conscious, and very caring. And Bunchy was more than a guy that I just worshipped because he was just, he was everything including very beautiful, very smart, a poet, [00:59:00] and a solider, a revolutionary. And for these two men to get killed and for me to be right there, of course, I lived with survivor’s guilt for a long time. I would have it now, I guess, if I, you know, really thought about it, but it’s too late, you know, 40 some years later. So, they were murdered. John Huggins was shot in the back by one of Karenga’s members, who was -- that assassin, Claude Hubert 34 �“Chuchessa”, ends up in Guyana with Jim Jones. I mean, this is just, you know, talk about COINTELPRO and all that. I mean, this is not the Black Panther memory for some conspiracy theory. This is what happened, and -AD: We gotta leave ’cause of traffic. JJ: Okay. EB: So, anyway, we can, some day pick this up. You know, I have Skype, by the way. I just put that up with the camera. Do you know how to do that? JJ: Yeah, we can figure that out. [01:00:00] EB: Okay. All right, well... JJ: We have to -- we can always, you know, we’ll do a second version of this. EB: Okay. I’m willing and ready. JJ: (inaudible) All right. Thank you. Thank you. EB: All right. END OF VIDEO FILE 35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e9df12dad7c23f4c2a0477479869cfb7.mp4 30c9521163426df544daf048e5f5a804 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Elaine Brown vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Elaine Brown, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 5/10/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Brown_Elaine Title A name given to the resource Elaine Brown video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brown, Elaine Description An account of the resource Oral history of Elaine Brown, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 5/10/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec6c3128b89428b5b703100a8837a797.pdf 98b4b4fd7d2525fbc9f903f0fcb3a453 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Billy “Che” Brooks Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/28/2012 Biography and Description Billy “Che” Brooks is Deputy Minister of Education of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP) and Director of YouthLAB@1521 through the Better Boys Foundation. In 1969, Mr. Brooks was very close to Chairman Fred Hampton who was the main spokesman of the Black Panther Party in Illinois. As one of the primary leaders of the BPP, Mr. Brooks was under constant, daily harassment by the Chicago Red Squad and Gang Intelligence Unit. He also worked closely with the Young Lords through the Rainbow Coalition.Mr. Brooks recalls one time when Mr. Hampton asked Mr. José ”Cha-Cha” Jiménez to sneak Mr. Brooks out of a rally at Grant Park, where the police wanted to arrest him on a simple, disorderly conduct warrant. In the middle of the Michigan Avenue Bridge, by Oak Street, the police blocked the automobile in which they were driving, pointed their funs in the faces of those in the car, and arrested Mr. Brooks. The Young Lords drove to the police station and posted his bond. They then drove Mr. Brooks back to the BPP headquarters and told Chairman Hampton, “This one is on us.” Mr. Brooks began working with the Better Boys Foundation in 1978 as the Coordinator of Community Involvement. He continued this work until 1994 and then returned to the agency in 2008. In the interim, Mr. Books engaged in a whole variety of community and public interest work including positions with the Westside Association for Community Action, Habilitative Systems, Inc. and the Harvard School of Public Health. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible). BILLY BROOKS: My name is Billy Lamar Brooks, Sr., a.k.a Che. I was born in Forest, Mississippi on July 18th, 1948. My family migrated to the State of Illinois, to the best of my recollection when I was three years old. I pretty much have lived on the West side of Chicago my entire adult life. I [00:01:00] spent most of my time in the North Lawndale community in an area called K-Town which is called K-Town because most of the streets start with a K, you know, Komensky, Karlov, Kedvale, Keeler, Kolin, Kildare, Kostner, then we go Tripp right in the middle there. And I went to Bryant School, which is located on 13th and Kedvale. From there, I went to Mason School, which is on 18th and Keeler. I graduated from Mason School in June of 1963, attended John Marshall High School where I ran track [00:02:00] for four years and participated in African American History Club, but it was called Negro History Club, taught by a guy by the name of George Crockett. I graduated from Marshall High School in June of 1967. This is where it get interesting, I went to Wilson Junior College, which at that time was located on 70th and Stewart, ran track there also, cross country. And got engaged in [00:03:00] a real African American club, you know, which opened my eyes up to the contradictions that existed in terms of poor people in this here country. I became politically conscious, politically aware of this government just in terms of how it treated its poor citizens. It was never my intention to be quote unquote, a “subversive, radical” or a member of the Black Panther Party. [00:04:00] I wanted to be a lawyer, I wanted to be a doctor and a 1 �lot of that was just based on the fact that I wanted to be a part of the American dream, which I was told was available to me. One thing led to another, I met some guys from the South Side of Chicago that I bonded to and we would meet and talk and meet and talk and I got tired of meeting and talking. I was familiar with what was going on in Oakland in October of 1966, you know, but it was not something that [00:05:00] (pause) I really wanted to be a part of, but I met this dude named Bobby Lee Rush, who’s a sitting congressman now in D.C., he represents some legislative district congressionally on the South Side. And we began to collaborate and organize around the issues of police brutality, which was something that I had witnessed as a very young person pretty much all my life. And one thing led to another just in terms of my consciousness and [00:06:00] my willingness to actually want to become part of a broader more focused struggle. Didn’t really know what I was getting into, but I had a burning desire to resist the temptation of not being a part of probably one of the most progressive and revolutionary movements in the history of this country when it comes down to dealing with the contradictions with capitalism and the overt oppression of [00:07:00] poor minority communities, you know. So, I actually went into the concept of being a member of the Black Panther Party not as a Black nationalist, not from within an Afrocentric perspective, but with the understanding that if we were actually going to have an impact on heightened contractions and changing some rudimentary social policies in this here country then we have to work with some coalition politics which was really part of the ideology and philosophy of the Black Panther Party, starting with the original 2 �Rainbow Coalition [00:08:00] with the Peace and Freedom Party out in San Francisco, Oakland, Bay Area when Eldridge Cleaver ran for president, you know, So, it became part and parcel of our philosophy and our ideology here in the State of Illinois where we were actually upon the leadership of our deputy chairman Fred Hampton who really understood more so than any of us at that time the importance of coalition politics. He took the lead in establishing [00:09:00] relationships throughout the city of Chicago. Even at one time and point tried to hook up with the Black P. Stone Nation, which is what they were called at that time and that didn’t work out too well. Worked a little with David... JJ: Why didn’t it work out too well? BB: Actually, at that time, there were a lot of dollars floating around out here from the so called Model Cities Program and a lot of that money were going to gangs, you know, like the Vice Lords, like the Black P. Stone Nation and they felt that we were a threat to them. You know, our focus was [00:10:00] on organizing poor and oppressed people in regards of where they were or what they were doing. And basically, it didn’t work out because they saw us as a threat to them. A lot of it had to do with... JJ: Threat in terms of taking your funds from the Model Cities? BB: Well, more or less. I would say to the extent of us impacting their ability to get those funds, you know, because we were talking about changing the economic infrastructure of our community, we were talking about building a political and economic base that actually we would control as opposed to [00:11:00] working with governmental handouts that placed all kind of constrictions and, (pause) you 3 �know, restrictions and unnecessary demands, was really basically what governed what we did. At that time the big thing was opening up businesses in the community and we weren’t into that at all. We were into heightening contradictions, you know, as we did with our breakfast program, as we did... JJ: Yeah, heightening contradictions meaning what? BB: It actually means that you’re making people aware. Okay, first of all, we look at oppression, we see oppression as violence, okay. [00:12:00] And the major contradiction that we looked at was children were going to school hungry, you know, and it’s kind of difficult to learn when you’re hungry. So, we saw that as a major contradiction. So, our intent was to heighten the people’s awareness of that. JJ: Major contradiction because they were hungry in a prosperous country? BB: Exactly, exactly. In a country that was one of the wealthiest countries in the world. All of our survival programs were geared toward heightening contradictions, you know, from the medical center to the free prison program. But the cream of the crop was... JJ: The Free Prison Program, how was that heightening contradictions? BB: Well, we [00:13:00] a lot of people that were incarcerated in Southern Illinois, people were not able to visit their relatives. And if you are incarcerated and you don’t have anyone coming to visit you, pretty much anything can go down, okay, so we created the Free Prison Bussing Program that took actual community residents, free of charge to visit their loved ones. Which really pissed off the penal institutions, you know, because then they started to have to change the 4 �way they treated our incarcerated family members. [00:14:00] Then people basically started going on their own to visit their relatives. All our programs were based on survival. Later on, Huey P. Newton conceptualized a different approach to the infrastructure of the Black Panther Party and started talking about revolutionary and communalism which connects all poor and oppressed communities around the world that are struggling with the same social, economic and political concerns. But they were all part and parcel of our original 10-point platform [00:15:00] and program. The most salient one was point number 10 where we talked about, we want land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice and peace. And as our major political objective, a United Nation supervised plebiscite which is a vote to determine the destiny of our poor and oppressed people and communities, you know, we wanted a vote. And we still would like to see that happen now in 2012 because the conditions haven’t changed, they haven’t changed here, they haven’t changed in the so-called Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. We’re still being exploited to the max in terms of [00:16:00] economic system, you know. JJ: Okay, so this was about the people determining their own destiny and bringing it to a vote you’re saying, (inaudible)? BB: Yeah, you know, bringing a vote, it would be a plebiscite. The whole concept behind United Nations is that they’re a world body and that each member of the United Nation represent nations around the world. And you well know, most of the oppressed third world nations and countries are being exploited for economic [00:17:00] reasons. 5 �JJ: So, you came when you were around three years old to the West Side of Chicago. BB: Yes. JJ: Okay. And you lived in K-Town (inaudible). BB: Mm-hmm. JJ: And then later on of course, you joined different groups, but you joined the Black Panther Party. BB: I only joined one group. JJ: Prior to that? BB: You know, I joined the Black Panther Party in October, 1968. Prior to that, I was not affiliated with... JJ: Any other group. BB: No. JJ: Okay. So, how did you get from Mississippi to Chicago thinking about the Black Panther Party? In between there with growing -- BB: Well, I came from... JJ: -- up on the West Side, what was that like (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: Well, [00:18:00] from Mississippi, I was three years old, I have very little memory of that. Some of my more salient thoughts are black and white police cars. We used to stay on 18th and Hastings and I had a Uncle Joe, a big truck driver, he used to drink a lot, he was very strong and he’d get into it with the police a lot. JJ: In like disorderly or something like that? BB: Yeah, no, I used to actually watch him beat the shit outta the police. 6 �JJ: Oh, he (inaudible). BB: Yeah. You know what I’m sayin’? I mean, eventually they would get the best of him, you know, but those are some of my early memories and I used to wonder why the police were so brutal. [00:19:00] JJ: Were there a lot of relatives here, did you have a lot of relatives? BB: Oh yeah, pretty much... JJ: I mean, did they come at the same time? BB: We all left -- as far as Mississippi, my uncle -- I had an uncle who lived in Gary, Indiana, he’s the oldest of my mother’s siblings. He came first, okay, and he worked at the steel mill. Then I had my Uncle Joe, then I had relatives in Joliet, Illinois. But I would say by the year of -- I was born in 48, so by the time I was six, seven years old, we had a real close-knit clan [00:20:00] here in Chicago area, which at that time included... JJ: On the West Side? BB: Yeah, but it also included -- JJ: Joliet and -- BB: -- Joliet, it included Gary, Indiana ’cause just about every weekend, we’d pile up in the old Buick and we’d be going to Joliet or we’d be going to Gary. Yeah, a lot of family here. JJ: So, you grew up with a family, cousins and all that. And what were they into, what were your cousins [and them into?], what the – I’m getting more personal. BB: I was the black sheep, okay? My mother pretty much was the only one who supported my [00:21:00] activities in the Black Panther Party. 7 �JJ: You’re talking about later, when you were an outcast for being a Panther. BB: No, I’m just talking about when I joined the party. JJ: But I’m talking about growing up. BB: What do you mean? JJ: You said you were the black sheep growing up. BB: No, no, not growing up. My stepfather was a Baptist minister, and I grew up in a church. I was a junior deacon, I taught Sunday school up until my senior year of high school, which was 1967. No, I fit quite well within the family structure up until like ’67, which was my first year of college, the first day of college, which was like September... JJ: What college was this? BB: Wilson Junior College. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BB: I remember participating in a 10 a.m. demonstration up here on Pulaski and [00:22:00] and Roosevelt. At that time, Richard Elrod was the city’s corporation counsel, he was one of Daley’s number one (audio cuts out) he became sheriff, Richard Elrod. And that’s where I met [Dax Crawford?], and I met Doug Andrews, you know, from the West Side Organization, WSO. And that was my very first arrest. JJ: Oh, you got arrested in that [thing?]? BB: Yeah, well, you know, at that time, they had what they called over here, Contract Buyers League, you had a lot of slum landlords and this was on the heels of what 8 �Dr. King was doing who lived a couple of blocks back from where we are now, [00:23:00] three blocks over, so he was part of that. JJ: Dr. King? BB: Yeah. JJ: Lived here, you mean in Chicago? BB: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know. BB: Yeah, they’ve got a little apartment complex right over there on 16th and Hamlin in his honor, Dr. King Apartments, yeah. JJ: Okay. BB: Yeah, you know, this is where he -- him and Bob Lucas, they organized and... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Bob Lucas. BB: Yeah, Dr. King stayed right over there on 15th and Hamlin, you know, that’s just like three blocks from where we are now. So, he had a lot of influence on activism in this particular neighborhood. And even though I got arrested and I was part of it, I still didn’t proactively engage myself as an organizer, but it was something that spoke out in my mind and I think that was the first time -- ’cause they didn’t [00:24:00] handcuff us, they just loaded us in the paddy wagon. And I remember getting in the paddy wagon and holding up my fist and saying, “Black power.” I didn’t know what the fuck Black power meant at that time, but there was just some rage. Because there were a lot of older seniors who were -- it was a 10 a.m. demonstration, they’re just sitting there protesting, they weren’t bothering nobody. I didn’t even have to go in, I coulda just got my ass on a bus, 9 �took the train and went on to school. But I said, “No,” because they had ’em surrounded, and they had their little helmets and shit on and had their little billy clubs. And I said, “They ain’t gonna beat these old people up,” you know what I’m saying, “I ain’t gonna let that happen.” So, they let all the old people (laughs) go and took our ass to jail. [00:25:00] JJ: Is it just upbringing or something, you were looking for the old people or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: Well, man, you know, you grow up -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: -- you grow up with respect for your elders and you wanna protect them and that was a lot of what that was from my point. I had a lot of elders in the church, the mothers, you know, they had the Mothers’ Board, and then they had all the old cats on the Deacon Board. And it was just something Cha-Cha that you learned to do. JJ: Because these were people from the church that were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, not necessarily from the church, but they were people from the community who reminded me of people. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BB: They were people fighting for their rights [00:26:00] against the slum landlords, they weren’t fixing anything, they was charging people absorbent amount of dollars to live in these fuckin’ rat holes, and people just got tired and they started protesting. 10 �JJ: And this was on the West Side only or... BB: Well, I think it was citywide. JJ: It was citywide? BB: They was doin’ the same thing in Inglewood, they was doin’ the same thing in the Kenwood Oakland community, that’s where the Woodlawn Organization -- now, this was around the time when the University of Chicago was expanding. JJ: But they were displacing people when they were expanding. BB: Yes. JJ: So, [00:27:00) it was a (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, it was called urban renewal. JJ: Okay. At that time, yeah. BB: And it was citywide. The same thing that happened here, happened up north. JJ: Exactly. In Uptown, Lincoln Park? BB: Yeah. JJ: In Uptown more, they were dealing with slum landlords more, where Lincoln Park was more displacement. BB: Urban removal. JJ: Urban removal, yeah. BB: Yeah, you know what I’m sayin’? Because the land was prime, you know, and the people with the dollars, the people with the money wanted to come back. You know, at one point, they all fled outta the city. [00:28:00] JJ: When was that, I mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 11 �BB: Well, you know, late ’50s, pretty much all of the ’60s. When they started building the University of Illinois, Circle Campus down there on Roosevelt and Halsted. Now, you know we used to go down there and buy (inaudible) and, you know. JJ: On Maxwell Street there. BB: Yeah. You know, you’re being politically correct, but then we called it Jewtown in the heyday, didn’t have no problem saying, you know, Jewtown (inaudible) and they weren’t Maxwell Street Polish, they were Jewtown Polish and they had this concept of bartering [00:29:00] that they call it, they called it jewing. They’ll have a product that they paid five dollars for, they wanna sell it to you for ten. So, you sit there and talk back and forth to ’em, then you get it down to five dollars, they’re not losing no money. You know what I’m sayin’? They’re not losing nothing, they just -- if you had a strong game, you know, you can get ’em down to 4.50, but the majority of people, they’ll pay the top price. Yeah. JJ: You had them down to 4.50. BB: Actually, I’d go down there and steal that shit. (laughter) Go down and steal that shit, man. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Okay, so we had Maxwell Street or Jewtown as it was called by everybody at that time, that you said I was trying to be politically correct. But [00:30:00] there were a lot of Jewish vendors, I mean, so they didn’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, it was all Jewish, you know. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: It was all Jewish. Now you had your -- 12 �JJ: They didn’t mind it at that time. BB: Well, no, you know, you had your street, you know, vendors, you had your blues singers. JJ: (inaudible) and everything on the street. BB: Yeah. JJ: I remember (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Yeah, we had Smoky Joe right there, that’s where everybody used to go get their (inaudible), you know, big ole hats and Stacy Adams shoes, you know, understand, that’s what we wearing back in high school. JJ: So, that kind of -- in that area, people were displaced from that area later, or is that what you’re -- BB: Pretty much. JJ: -- what we’re saying? BB: Yeah, pretty much. I mean, you see the spread that they have down there now from Halsted coming back west, going all the way down [00:31:00] to Harrison, you know what I’m saying? (inaudible) even went all the way back to 18th Street. JJ: Okay, so these things related to housing, to police brutality and then you said you joined the Panthers in October of ’68. BB: Mm-hmm. JJ: So, I mean, what happened, what was your position in the Panthers at that time? BB: I was a Deputy Minister of Education, structure wise, Bobby Rush was the Deputy Minister of Defense, which patterned after central committee, Huey P. Newton being the Minister of Defense, that meant Rush was the leader of the 13 �party [00:32:00] here. And then Fred Hampton was the Deputy Chairman which pretty much meant that he was the spokesman and that he understood the ideology and the philosophy, and he was able to speak on it, with some shit Rush could never do. And then up under me, there was Rufus Chaka Walls, he was the Deputy Minister of Information. Later we had Ronald Doc Satchel as the Deputy Minister of Health. Ann Campbell. (laughs) JJ: And then Ann Campbell, what was her position? BB: She was the like the Communications Secretary. JJ: Communications Secretary. BB: Yeah. We had a deputy minister of labor [00:33:00] initially, which his name was Ron Carter. No, no, not [Ron Carter?], [Don Patterson?]. JJ: Don Patterson. BB: Yeah, Ron Patterson. JJ: Yvonne King [with them, was it?]? BB: Yvonne King actually was Bill’s secretary. JJ: Bill’s secretary. BB: Along with Jewel Cook. JJ: Jewel Cook (inaudible). BB: Yeah. JJ: Bob Lee. BB: Bob Lee was Field Secretary. And what the field secretaries did was go out and organize certain parts of the city. As you know, Bob Lee had North Side and that’s how he got going, you know, from Northeastern to basically Uptown. He 14 �was real instrumental in organizing the Young Patriots and he probably was the only one that good do it ’cause, I mean, (inaudible). [00:34:00] (laughs) You know how we rolled, right, you was there. But everybody had a specific role and responsibility within the infrastructure of our Black Panther Party. Now, I have to emphasize, our Black Panther Party. JJ: So, I see that there was some people that were not -- in terms of the Rainbow Coalition in the beginning, people were not accepting it? BB: Well, no, I... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) understood. BB: I won’t say there was no acceptance, it was just like the whole concept was coalition politics. JJ: But there wasn’t hesitation. BB: No, no, I mean, this was something that was mandated, this was part of our charge. We just had to find the right person to do it. You know what I’m sayin’? You couldn’t send me up there. JJ: (laughs) BB: You know, [00:35:00] you know. But we supported the work of Bob Lee because the whole intent... JJ: Chicago was a segregated city, I mean for a while (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Oh, still is, still is. JJ: So, the West Side and the North Side were segregated (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 15 �BB: Right, right, South Side, West Side, North Side. JJ: So, you were growing up on the West Side (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Mm-hmm. See, my job over here, we opened up... JJ: I mean, did that affect the coalition building or -- BB: No, no. JJ: -- segregation is (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: No, I mean, not really. Our biggest dilemma came with Students for a Democratic Society, RAM One, RAM Two, Bernadine, Jeff Jones, Mark Rudd, [Brian Dean?] and Bill Ayers. When they opened up their office over there on Ashland and Madison, we just [00:36:00] had problems with that because the whole intent was for them to go back to their respective communities to combat racism. JJ: And Ashland and Madison, what type of community was it? BB: It was a Black community. JJ: So, they were in the middle of a Black community. BB: Yeah. JJ: And most of them were White (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: All of them were White. JJ: All of them were White. BB: Yeah. JJ: So, you had a problem with that. BB: Well, yeah. I mean, the thing was is that y’all go in y’all community and organize, and educate the racists in your neighborhoods to understand and support what 16 �you guys are doing to bring about social change. And they never quite got that. We used to call them Mother Country Radicals as you very [00:37:00] well know. We never had a problem with Mike James, you know, Mike and I are still good friends, I just don’t get up to the Heartland Café ’cause it’s so damn far, you know, and then... JJ: And the reason for not everyone following Mike James... BB: Because Mike James was cool, Mike James was a greaser. JJ: He was organizing, a greaser. BB: Yeah, he was doing his -- he was, you know. JJ: He was doing his job -- BB: Yeah. JJ: -- organizing the greaser (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) in the White community. BB: Right, right. JJ: And the Young Patriots were doing the same thing in Uptown (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Exactly, exactly. JJ: Okay. BB: We never saw SDS as part of the Rainbow Coalition, you know what I’m sayin’? JJ: At that time (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: It never did. It never did. All right? JJ: I don’t wanna put words in... BB: No, no, we never did -- 17 �JJ: You never (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: -- particularly after October, [00:38:00] November in ’69 when they decided to break off and become the Weathermen. JJ: Okay. BB: You know what I’m sayin’? And they decided that they were going to go around and start blowing shit up, you know, they wanted to do some armed revolution. And we said no. They aligned themselves with Eldridge Cleaver and DLA and it hurt. Basically, what it was that we were trying to deal with our survival programs, we knew very well that we’re not ready for no armed struggle, we didn’t [00:39:00] have the weaponry and probably never will happen. The idea was to educate people, the idea was to heighten the contradictions and to use what we were doing as vanguard party to put the [masses of the?] people in a situation where they would see a need for change and make those necessary changes through a concept called protracted struggle. I have not given up, you know, it’s a process, it’s an ongoing process, you know what I’m sayin’, but you constantly have to organize, you constantly have to educate. And see that’s one of the things people don’t wanna talk about now in terms of what our intent was, [00:40:00] what our purpose was. JJ: So now, when you’re speaking, you’re not speaking individually, you’re saying that the party in Illinois was feeling the same thing you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Well, actually, let me give you an example of something. JJ: I remember Fred Hampton also (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 18 �BB: I know you do. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: (laughs) I know you do. But see the thing of it is that we did what we called party lines. JJ: I think some of them came later on when they started organizing, but at that moment (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, he was gone basically from April of ’69 to August ice cream truck shit, you know, he was in the joint. Then when he got out in August, he was gone... JJ: Ice cream truck meaning? BB: He allegedly stole... JJ: That’s where they accused [00:41:00] him (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Yeah. And he was out on appeal, and he was fighting it. JJ: He had taken some ice cream and then supposedly have given it to the -- BB: Right, right. JJ: -- kids in the neighborhood. BB: Right, right. And then from August going forward, four months later he was dead, assassinated, December the 4th. And between August, you know what I mean, we had like three police hit someone in our office, we had one in July, we had one in August and we had one in October, which was one I was in there on. And then later on in November there was a situation where Spurgeon Jake Winters had a confrontation with some police on the South Side, Gilhooly and Rappaport, [00:42:00] those were their names and they killed him, but he killed a couple of 19 �them. Then they intensified their efforts to just totally destroy -- and what people sometimes don’t recognize is that when that incident happened Spurgeon really wasn’t in the party. JJ: What incident, I mean, (inaudible) clear on -- the incident that (inaudible) Spurgeon -- what was the incident? BB: They had a shootout with the police. JJ: Okay, but I mean what was the basis, what was the police (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: It wasn’t -- I don’t know. JJ: Stop and frisk? BB: I don’t know, I wasn’t there. I just know the end result. JJ: And you said there were three hits by the police, meaning that they came and raided the office three times. BB: Mm-hmm. [00:43:00] JJ: And the Panthers defended the office each time (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). I mean that’s what you’re saying or... BB: What I said was they hit our office three times, arrested us and beat the shit out of us on each occasion. I don’t know if you wanna call that defending, you know, I remember when they was beating the shit outta me, I didn’t feel like I was defending shit. You know what I’m sayin’ was some brutal shit they put down, you know what I’m sayin’? We were victims. JJ: Okay. 20 �BB: None of them were hurt, you know, because that’s not what we were about, we were about propagandizing, [00:44:00] we were about educating, we were about putting together programs. And they knew it, they had enough provocateur agents and informants in the Black Panther Party to know that we really wasn’t... JJ: You said provocateur agents, what was their role (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: They would create situations to (audio cuts out) things that would allow the police to -- William O’Neal for instance was an excellent example of a provocateur agent. He was placed there by the FBI and the Gang Intelligence Unit. And he was called out on a number of times as being [00:45:00] a provocateur. JJ: I mean, what did you do? I know, I saw one time a homemade electric chair that he had created to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: O’Neal was on the defense cadre, okay, security detail, you know, which meant that he was under the leadership of Bobby Rush. Each deputy minister had a cadre, you know, I mean we had structure. And on a number of occasions O’Neal was called to the carpet by Rush, Bobby Rush, the congressman, the preacher, the minister defended him and vouched for him. This is record stuff I’m talking, I don’t have a problem saying this. I don’t know if it was out of his naivete, [00:46:00] you know, I would not sit here and say that Bobby Rush was an agent for the government, but I will say that he had a security clearance as a member of the United States Military, which was hard at that point in time for a black man to get. Now, I can say that he left the United States Army and went to SNCC and left SNCC and came to the Black Panther Party. I can say that we 21 �never had a good relationship to this day. Reading in the paper today that he was in D.C. yesterday with a hoody on in support of Trayvon [00:47:00] Martin. With all the other kinda work, the Black Congressional Caucus can be about right now just in terms of enacting legislation and processes to impact poor people particularly in his district, that was a coward act to me. Enough of Bobby Rush. Nothing I’ve never said before. JJ: Okay, so you have not seen that (inaudible) within (inaudible) record is. BB: Oh, of course not. Of course not. When he ran for alderman, he ran on the platform of the party initially. When he first ran, [00:48:00] you know, he had a lot of comrade brothers and sisters out there working the precincts for him. Then once he got elected, he kinda like turned his back and he made this statement that people who support him can take care of themselves, which was like, okay. We had talked to him about sponsoring legislation in the City Council that will call for decentralization of the police which was one of our points in the 10-point platform. “If you can’t do nothing else Bobby, you know, just putt it out there.” He was in the position to do it. Harold wouldn’t sign off on it, Harold Washington. [00:49:00] But Harold couldn’t introduce the legislation, only an alderman can do that. And that was his first to me... JJ: What about like after Fred was killed, there was a raid on his house too, wasn’t there? BB: Well, interesting thing about that. (pause) They said it was police who (inaudible) stand over there in the Hilliard Homes on State Street, but he didn’t actually [live there?]. The irony is that he showed up at Breadbasket that same mornin’ with 22 �body guards from the African American Patrolmen [00:50:00] Association, hanging with Jesse who if you remember, we didn’t even mess with Jesse, you know. So, that’s all I gotta say about that. He wasn’t with no Panthers that next day, he was with the police. JJ: Let’s leave it there, I don’t wanna (inaudible). BB: No, honestly, I mean, you know, I’m just answering your questions. JJ: (inaudible). BB: If you get a chance to interview him, ask him about that, go ahead. JJ: No, no, no. I mean, he said, it’s understood that there was division within the... BB: Not divisions. JJ: Not division, but (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Contradictions. JJ: Contradictions, contradictions. BB: You know, contradictions. JJ: But you don’t see him as an enemy, I mean, it was just a contradiction (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: You know, [00:51:00] you got two words you’re playing with here. JJ: Okay, all right. BB: Okay, contradiction and contrary. JJ: Okay. BB: Okay? A lot of what he did was contrary to the principles of the Black Panter Party, okay? And he very well knew it. The contradiction part of it is that not being truthful, being a liar and just being [involved?] and not practicing what you 23 �should be doing, [00:52:00] so you contradict yourself with contrary behavior. Because if you apply to a marriage and me and you both know, I’ve been married four times, you know what I’m saying, because within that marriage there were contradictions, there was some contrary shit, so you could process it or not. (inaudible). JJ: Okay. I got you. (inaudible). So, tell me, before -- now this is at the end of -- not at the end, but it was a problematic situation within the party at that time. What I mean, Fred Hampton was murdered, killed, it affected the movement. At first the movement was strong [00:53:00], and then later on it did hurt. But before that, when Fred was alive, and the Panthers were -- can you kind of describe what was some of the work of the Panthers at that time? BB: Well, you know... JJ: (inaudible) work that took place. BB: From October... JJ: For people that don’t remember those times. BB: Well, from October to April, you know, our focus was on political education, organizing infrastructure. JJ: Were you public, I mean, were you having press conferences at that time, or no? BB: Of course. JJ: Did you have like an (inaudible) a period for training before you came out? BB: No, we just went right into it in October and started having political education classes, started organizing for our breakfast [00:54:00] program, we started selling our newspapers, we started soliciting people like Dr. [Cass?] and [Eric?] -- 24 �Quentin Young to be part of our medical center. We opened up our first breakfast program here in April of ’69. So, our whole time period from like October to April of ’69 was organizing, you know, selling newspapers, propagandizing. JJ: How did you get the cadre (inaudible)? BB: Well... JJ: It doesn’t happen like that overnight, I mean, you have to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: When I say October to April, that’s not overnight? JJ: Well, that is [00:55:00] overnight, but... BB: No, it’s not. No, it’s not. No, it’s not. No, it’s not. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Uh-uh, it’s not overnight. JJ: Well, no, it was a few months. BB: You know what I’m sayin’? I mean, you have to realize something man, Fred Hampton wasn’t even an outside the wall of Black Panther for a year. We started in October of ’68, he went to the penitentiary in April of ’69, he got out in August of ’69, he was assassinated in December of ’69. So, when I say organize, when I say educate, when I say propagandize, you know, we hit just about every college, university in Chicago, we hit all the high schools. [00:56:00] We traveled to Northern and Southern, we hit Champaign, recruiting, we recruited college students. That’s how we got Doc, Doc was at Circle Campus. Chuckles was at Circle Campus. So, the critical piece was political education, so the 25 �people would understand the ideology and the philosophy and be able to articulate what our programs were and at the same time be able to implement ’em, you know. So, from October to April, you know, we were able to establish our breakfast program, we were able to establish donations with Quaker Oats, Joe Louis Milk, Parker House Sausage. We didn’t have no money. [00:57:00] So, we were able to do that. Then we started focusing on a medical center, organizing that, getting nurses, getting doctors, getting the community support. We were in the street, you know what I’m sayin’, we were on these university campuses, we was on these college campuses, we were on these junior college campuses, not so much as churches. That’s what I remember. We first got tight in Lincoln Park if you remember. And that was like a big rally out [00:59:00] there. At that time, I was drinking Bali Hai, I had a Bali Hai, you know, and then we had... JJ: You’re talking about Lincoln Park when Bobby Seale was there or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: No, no. When we got humbugging out there. JJ: In Lincoln Park. BB: Yeah. JJ: In the Lincoln Park neighborhood or the park itself? BB: Park. JJ: The park. Humbugging, I wasn’t there that day, I heard about it. BB: Yeah, but I’m just saying that’s when we really -- JJ: Humbugging meaning (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 26 �BB: Fight, fight, fight. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Chaka was speaking and at that time they had, I think they called them self [Cloverstone?]. JJ: (inaudible). BB: And they was disruptive and disrespectful and they didn’t like the concept of a coalition, of a[00:59:00] you know. And we grew from there. Ain’t no point in talking about our other escapades Cha-Cha, but, you know, you get the drift of what struggling is, what community organizing is and how we did what we did. There’s so much more than I can talk about. JJ: Okay, so the programs were a means of getting the community also involved, no, or what? They did the promotions for the party and the -- even for us it (inaudible) in terms of the Young Lords, in terms of getting people involved. BB: That’s how you do it. [01:00:00] JJ: But you’re saying that wasn’t a big thing, the... BB: That’s how we survived. JJ: Okay, (inaudible). BB: I mean, every time the police would attack our office, the community would come out, and, yeah. JJ: Did they ever come out because of the work of the programs that they were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? BB: Well, they knew we were providing them with a service that they otherwise would not have had. They did not like the idea that we were being harassed by police. 27 �We got in a lot of trouble in some ways because there were a lot of people wearing [01:01:00] berets, you know, field jackets who really weren’t party members and honestly did some shit that we got blamed for, but it is what it is, you know. We could not have survived after December the 4th without community support. After what they did to Fred man, even skeptical people, you know what I’m sayin’, even staunch Christians got mad because they knew that was wrong. You know what I’m sayin’, they knew that was wrong. They knew it was incorrect. And [01:02:00] I wouldn’t be here today if I had not gotten the support of people who believed in the work we did, trust me, and the work that we’re going to continue to do. And you know how difficult it is, you know what we went through, and you know we’re gonna continue to go through, it’s a protracted struggle. And one of the more difficult things I find is that -- I’ve got some comrades doing this Illinois history project on the Black Panther Party. When we initially started, I told them, I said, “How the fuck do write history when you’re fuckin’ making history?” You know what I’m sayin’? Because ain’t gonna be no conclusion, that shit’s [01:03:00] constantly, constantly changing unless you’re doing a documentary like what you’re doing, you know what I’m sayin’? And I understand why you’re doing it. But I do believe that, you know, I believe in you Cha-Cha, you know, we did seen some things together and we did did some things together and we’re gonna continue, even though I’m a better disc jockey than you are. JJ: (inaudible). (Laughter) BB: I can’t stand the smell of it. 28 �JJ: (inaudible). BB: Yeah. But this can be a beginning of something ’cause anything else salient in your mind, you wanna shoot at me? JJ: Did you see any [01:04:00] connections in terms of the Young Lords and the Panthers, what were some of the events that connect -- what were some of the things that we did together? BB: Well, you know, the thing about it was that... JJ: Then you remember the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). BB: Oh man, yeah. I can’t talk about shit like that on here, I really will get into some trouble. But what I can say was that when you talk about coalition politics, you gotta have partners, you gotta have partners that you believe in, you gotta have people that you believe in, ’cause you’re talking about two different organizations, the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party. And you guys, particularly up under your leadership, and how you studied [01:05:00], you know, how we used to sit down and talk, how you used to collaborate with Fred, the times that he saved my ass, you know what I’m sayin’, other things that can’t be mentioned. But there would not have been a Rainbow Coalition as we know Rainbow Coalition to be in the State of Illinois without the Young Lords. Simply because you guys were organizers, you understood the street, and you looked at some of the things that we were doing and said, “That shit makes sense.” You know what I’m sayin’? And you put it into practice, you know what I’m sayin’? And I tell brothers this [01:06:00] today, calling themselves street tramps, I said, “As long as y’all out here doing this here, you’re not a threat, but the minute you start 29 �talking about organizing, the minute you start telling people they should vote, the minute you start telling young people to go to school, get a good education, that’s when you become a threat, and that’s when they’re gonna come at you.” You know what’s I’m sayin’? I would like to see another coalition come about of people working across communities like we used to do. We made a difference in Lincoln Park, you know, we made a difference over here in North Lawndale. We had our breakfast program here, we had our medical center a couple of blocks over and that was all based on the fact that we processed the needs of the people. [01:07:00] You know what I’m sayin’? We fed people initially and people started supporting us, we started testing people for sickle-cell anemia, you know, free. There were no free health clinics in Chicago at that time. You know what I’m sayin’? You guys emulated that because it works. And there are times when you ask me a question Cha-Cha that’s opened up all kind of different thought processes and I might not pinpoint an answer to you. But the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party here in the State of Illinois, [01:08:00] I can sum it up by saying this, we came together as brothers, and we trusted each other. That was in 1969, today is 2012 and we’re still doing it and we’re going to keep doing it. And it’s based on the ideology, it’s based on philosophical understanding, it's based on principles of struggle. Does that mean we don’t make mistakes? No. We’ve had our ups and downs personally, organizationally, but we done survive for some fuckin’ reason. I had no idea that me and you would ever [01:09:00] be sitting down, you know, “What’s that mother fuckin’ Cha-Cha interviewing me, who the fuck taught him how to use a god damn 30 �camera?” (laughs) You know, you’re [Howard Alton?] now, you’re [Mike Grayden?] now. You know what I’m sayin’? You’re documenting man, you know what I’m sayin’, and it’s phenomenal. And that in itself speaks more to who we were then and who we are now. Our struggle for human rights, our struggle for justice, it is just as intense now as it was 42, 43, 44 years ago, you know, we’re just on a different [01:10:00] stage of the game. I’m trying to accelerate what I’m doing. I’ll be 64 years old, I didn’t even think I’d see fuckin’ 30. Most of my life since 1971, ’72, I already had one daughter in the party in ’69, but my children became my focal point. Now my focal point are my grandchildren, giving them some insight, giving them some love, so that they will understand the type of things that they need to do not only to survive in America, but thrive [01:11:00] just in terms of making a difference. If I can’t do more than that, I’m good. JJ: Anything that you wanna add? That was what I wanted to add. What did you wanna add? BB: I’m good. JJ: You’re good, okay. END OF AUDIO FILE 31 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/209cd4e0bb793ed039cf37970288221f.mp4 e2e825a461636b871fe30060e5ffcbf2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Billy “Che” Brooks vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Juventud--Illinois--Chicago Relaciones raciales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Brooks_Billy Title A name given to the resource Billy “Che” Brooks video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brooks, Billy Description An account of the resource Billy “Che” Brooks is Deputy Minister of Education of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP) and Director of YouthLAB@1521 through the Better Boys Foundation. In 1969, Mr. Brooks was very close to Chairman Fred Hampton who was the main spokesman of the Black Panther Party in Illinois. As one of the primary leaders of the BPP, Mr. Brooks was under constant, daily harassment by the Chicago Red Squad and Gang Intelligence Unit. He also worked closely with the Young Lords through the Rainbow Coalition. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter African Americans--Personal narratives Youth--Illinois--Chicago Race relations Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5f80a5c9e27a565f71eadced2c4e2526.pdf 1d456f6a7a8994d8c704e50c0b22835a PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: John Boelter Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/20/2012 Biography and Description John Boelter was one of the Chicago Teachers Union members on strike in September 1968 at Waller High School, known today by its new name, Lincoln Park High. Today he is a Professor of Biology at Chicago State University. In 1968, a prominent Young Lord, Ralph “Spaghetti” Rivera returned from Puerto Rico and subleased a room from Dr. Boelter. Mr. Rivera, who grew up in Lakeview, wanted to be closer to the Young Lords who were then hanging out in front of the Armitage Avenue United Methodist Church which later to become the People’s Church, on the corner of Dayton Street and Armitage Avenue. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Rivera had been hanging out with M.P.I. (Movimiento Pro Independencia) and F.U.P.I. (Federacion Universitaria Pro Independencia) their student auxiliary, at University of Puerto Rico campus in Rio Piedras. He was going through a political transformation. Upon arriving in Chicago, Mr. Rivera soon discovered that his Young Lords colleagues were also going through a transformation. They had been reorganized once again by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the members were struggling with each other on whether to remain apolitical as just a gang or to become a human rights movement. Mr. Rivera joined in fully to help Mr. Jiménez, and they together designed the original Young Lords button that read, “Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón ( I have Puerto Rico in my heart) with a green map of Puerto Rico in the center, and a brown arm and fist holding a rifle. The initials YLO, which stood for “Young Lords Organization,” was at the bottom. They had added organization to their name, to make it �clear that they were now involved in a class struggle, fighting for Latinos, the poor, and for Puerto Rican self-determination. Mr. Rivera became one of the Young Lords’ first P.E. (political education) class teachers, as these sessions were being held in the different homes of members including. LP Records of speeches by Malcom X, Fidel Castro, Don Pedro Albizu Campos, Mao Tse Tung’s Little Red Book, the National Question, Panther films, and Saul Alinsky strategies were being used as tools for study. It was in Mr. Boelter’s and Mr. Rivera’s house where Chicago Black Panther Party Chairman Fred Hampton and the Panthers first arrived on Dayton and Armitage. They were led from the corner to the house to meet Dr. Boelter, Mr. Rivera, Mr. Jiménez, and the Young Lords. The Black Panthers broke bread and drank Wild Irish Rose (Fred Hampton did not drink or use drugs) on ice, smoked some weed, and joked a little, cementing a relationship that has lasted to this day. On a different day within a few weeks at the same location, it was informally agreed to join together with the Young Patriots. BPP Field Marshall Bob Lee was working with them. The three groups, who were already major players within their own communities, became the original members of the alliance known as the Rainbow Coalition. This was followed by several press conferences announcing the Rainbow Coalition, including one where Congressman Bobby Rush, appears in a photo with the Young Lords, Young Patriots and other Black Panthers but where Mr. Jiménez and Mr. Hampton were unable to be present. The Rainbow Coalition was strongly woven together to the credit of the organizations that took part in it. They all were committed and followed the same vanguard ideology of the BPP. But it is significant to note that the Rainbow Coalition was more symbolic than a structured organization. It was the mass way for all the grassroots organizations to find common ground and to join together for support of each other’s struggles, and it soon spread to other movements and groups like Rising Up Angry, the Intercommunal Survival Committees, Red Guard, Brown Berets, S.D.S. and many other groups in many cities. After the Young Lords went underground and the Puerto Rican and low income residents of Lincoln Park were completely removed by Mayor Richard J. Daley and his patronage machine, Dr. Boelter moved south to Morgan Park. Dr. Boelter also joined the Progressive Labor Party. The Progressive Labor Party had left the Communist Party years before, because their belief was that “they want to skip the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and go right into utopia.” They are against racism and respect workers, but do not want to cling on to leaders or unions, preferring to organize the masses. They have been accused of “catering more to the petty bourgeoisie and the aristocracy of labor.” Then they rejected the Black Panthers and Young Lords use of Nationalism as an important step. They also had become part of S.D.S. and by 1969 were their largest faction. Dr. Boelter today is still a member. These political discussions on all sides were part of the Lincoln Park era in the late 60s and 70s. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, John, if you can give me your full name and your date of birth and where you were born. JOHN BOELTER: Sure. My name is John Boelter. I was born May 15, 1942 so I’m 70 years old this year. I was born in Des Moines, Iowa. Did I answer all those questions? JJ: That’s right, you did good. So were your parents’ name and that? JB: Yeah, my parents are both deceased. [Fred?] Boelter was my father and [Margaret?] Boelter my mother. JJ: And they’re both from Iowa? JB: My mother is from Iowa, my father was from Detroit, Michigan. Yeah. JJ: All right. Boelter, is that an Italian name or...? JB: It was German. German background, right. JJ: Okay. All right. Not that it mattered. [00:01:00] Any brothers and sisters and their names? JB: I have six brothers and sisters. I’m the oldest of seven. The oldest is -- next to me is [Ruth?], my sister, and then [Paul?], my brother. My brother [James?], my sister [Helen?], brother [Robert?], and brother [Mark?]. JJ: Okay. Are they in Chicago any of them or...? JB: They’re scattered. My brother [Jim?] is in Manhattan. Mark is the closest; He’s in Springfield, Illinois. He’s the youngest. Paul’s in St. Louis, Helen’s in Ohio, Ruth is in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and Robert’s out in -- 1 �JJ: Robert’s where? JB: Robert is in Oregon, Portland. Portland, Oregon. JJ: Oh, okay. Okay. What kind of work are they into? Just [00:02:00] touch upon. If you can touch on that a little bit. JB: Okay. Ruth is a retired nurse, an RN. Paul is -- he had a custom carpentry business. He sold it and went back to college and a few years ago, started teaching math in middle school math. Jim just retired from banking in New York. He didn’t do that much. He worked for the bank, but he did mostly communications work; Their electronic systems and stuff like that. Let’s see, who’s next? JJ: You got to protect him there because the bankers (laughter) have a better rap today. JB: They had backup systems for their electronics and he was in charge of what they call hotspots or something like that, the backup [00:03:00] systems. Helen is a medical transcriber; Works from home online. Bob, basically his main job is he gets paid by the state of Oregon to be his wife’s caregiver. And he does some other work on the side; You know, delivery work. Mark is retired and in a nursing home. Who did I forget? I think I got everybody, right? JJ: Okay. That’s good. You said you have some children also or...? JB: Yes. My oldest is my son [Aaron?]. He’ll be 43 this year. Next is my daughter [Adrienne?] who lives in Atlanta. My son Aaron is an art teacher like his mother, my ex-wife. Adrienne lives in Atlanta. She’s [00:04:00] in videos and media 2 �communications. My middle daughter lives in Chicago here. This is my wife, [Ellen?] coming in. (laughs) This is Cha-Cha Jimenez. ELLEN BOELTER: Hi. How are you? (inaudible) no, that’s okay, go ahead. JJ: That’s okay, all right. EB: Go ahead. I’ll be out here. JB: So I was talking about [Susana?], my middle daughter. She’s currently unemployed but she was also in video and media reproduction work. EB: I really am -- I was just trying to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) for the research. JB: Okay. My youngest is [Brenda?] who lives in and works in Colorado. She works for the Colorado state parks as a biologist. JJ: Okay. Then that’s what you do, too. You teach? JB: I teach biology, right. JJ: Okay. [00:05:00] So how did you arrive in Chicago? How did you get here? JB: I came to Chicago to look for work; A teaching job. I came from Valparaiso, Indiana. I was working and teaching. I was a graduate assistant at Valparaiso University where I’d also got my undergraduate work. A job fell through in Fort Wayne, Indiana so one of the professors at Valpo said come on to Chicago. He was a sociology professor and a football coach. He had an urban studies program going. He said, “Come on in. I’ll help you get a job and a place to live and you can help me talk to my students.” So that’s how I got here. Fall of ’66 -(break in audio) 3 �JB: -- in urban studies with the professor. I was already out of undergraduate work and [00:06:00] starting my master’s program. But I needed to work so I came to Chicago. JJ: And you landed work right away. Where? JB: Waller High School. JJ: Okay, Waller High School. JB: Yeah. Which is now known as Lincoln Park High School. JJ: And what year was that? JB: Nineteen sixty-six; Fall of ’66. JJ: Oh, ’66. Okay. So what was that like? I mean that year at Waller? What was the population of the school? JB: Population of the school. I’d say the majority of my students were Black from the Cabrini-Green Projects. Then the next largest group were the Puerto Rican students from around -- in the neighborhood around the school. Then there were a few white students from the white area of Lincoln Park. JJ: So the Black students were bussed in or how was that? JB: I don’t recall any school buses but [00:07:00] they would’ve come on public transportation. Yeah. JJ: Oh, public transportation. But the neighborhood was Puerto Rican at that time. Is that what you’re saying? The Puerto Ricans were from around there. JB: Yeah, the neighborhood, the housing right around the school. The blocks around the school were actually being torn down by mayor Daley’s urban renewal project. 4 �JJ: At that time. JB: Yeah, when I get off from the bus stop, I had two blocks to walk to the school every morning and I’d see them tearing down another home. So -- JJ: In ’66 already at that time. JB: Yeah. JJ: Okay. Were there any gangs at all or anything at the school? JB: Yeah. I couldn’t tell you what gangs exactly. There was some –- but I don’t remember that there were -- it was a big problem. But kids came from CabriniGreen and some kids were in gangs there. Then I guess the Young Lords were sort of known as a gang. At the time I came, I wasn’t [00:08:00] really that familiar with any students outside my classroom in the Puerto Rican community. JJ: So there were some gangs but it really wasn’t a big problem. JB: No, it wasn’t. It wasn’t a big problem. JJ: Okay. All right. So you came to Waller and you’re coming from Valparaiso, Indiana but you grew up in Des Moines, Iowa? JB: I grew up in Iowa. I lived there until I was 11. Then we moved to Wisconsin. I finished the eighth grade. Actually, I –- from sixth grade to eighth grade, we lived in two places in Wisconsin. Then I went to high school in Wisconsin, graduated from high school and started college at Stevens Point, Wisconsin, the state college. It’s now called a state university at Stevens Point. Then my family moved to Ohio [00:09:00] and so I transferred to Valparaiso, Indiana to Valparaiso University. JJ: Okay. You came into Waller and was that challenging for you or how did you...? 5 �JB: Yeah, it was a little bit of a culture shock. (laughter) Because I had until then then been from a rural area to -- through high school, I lived in the country, basically. A rural area. Farming country. Valparaiso, Indiana was the biggest town I’d ever been in when I went to college. Again, pretty much of a homogeneous population. White. So coming into Waller High School was, with mainly a minority population, was a big change for me. JJ: What about the professors? (inaudible) So the population was mainly minority in ’66, but what about the...? JB: Professors were mainly white. JJ: Were mainly white at that time? JB: [00:10:00] Right. JJ: Any Latinos or African Americans at that time or that you were aware of? JB: Not at the beginning that I’m aware of. Later on, there was a student boycott. Some of the demands were to bring in more African American teachers and African American history. JJ: And you were involved in some of that boycott. JB: Yes, I was. JJ: Can you tell me about that or...? JB: In the fall of ’68, I’m pretty sure it was ’68, a lot of things happened that year. Martin Luther King was shot at the Democratic Convention. But when we came back to school, some of the nationalists living in the projects, Black nationalists, were working with some of the students and they were taking militant [00:11:00] action like pulling fire alarms and emptying the school. Then trying to get picket 6 �lines going and things like that. Raising demands. Everything from more toilet paper in the washroom to Black history courses. I’d be getting to know my students and some of their parents and it just seemed to me that that was the side -- in that particular struggle, that was the side that I identified with. So I got involved and help organize it. JJ: Okay. So you helped to organize the boycott. JB: Right. JJ: Okay. Were you a member of any group or anything or just doing it in...? JB: No, I wasn’t. I was still kept in touch with the professor from Valparaiso. My background is Lutheran and Valparaiso is a Lutheran-affiliated university. So I went to a Lutheran church [00:12:00] over in LaSalle. I forget the name of that high-rise, middle-class housing community there. JJ: Sandburg Village? JB: Sandburg Village. Right, very good. Yeah. There was a church there that I attended. The Valpo students that came into town were Lutheran so that was their base of operations out of that church, too. So I was part of that little community, as well. At one point, I belonged to a group called Lutheran [Action?] –- JJ: Actually, Sandburg came after we were displaced from there, too, because it was -- used to be called [La Clark?]. That neighborhood was called –- JB: Oh, I wasn’t aware of the history. JJ: Then Sandburg Village came after that. That’s why I know Sandburg, but... JB: Oh, okay. (laughs) When I knew it, those high-rises were already up, so -- 7 �JJ: But you lived there, too. You lived in that area. JB: I lived just within walking distance just a couple blocks over, yeah. JJ: [00:13:00] (inaudible) it was within the same neighborhood. JB: Right. That was on LaSalle Street. I lived on Sedgwick which was a couple blocks west of there. JJ: In the gardens you mentioned. JB: Town and Country Gardens. JJ: Town and Country Gardens in Sedgwick. JB: Right. JJ: Okay. (inaudible) those apartments, housing. So you said you organized the boycott because your students were involved in it? JB: Yes, yes. JJ: Is that what you said or...? I don’t want to... JB: I can’t remember the exact circumstances how I got involved in it but I know I was talking -- I think there was a community organizer at an office in Lincoln Park. I’m sorry I don’t remember his name, he and his wife. They were telling me that there was a –- JJ: Did you know if their -- what their vision or (inaudible)? JB: Yeah, [00:14:00] it might’ve been the name. JJ: Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park? JB: That could’ve –-that’s possibly -- I can’t -- JJ: That was a group that worked with us later so... JB: Oh, okay. 8 �JJ: But I mean, it may have been somebody else. JB: Yeah. JJ: But they were connected to a church. To the North Side Cooperative Ministry. It’s not them. JB: No, that -- I don’t think so. I wouldn’t say for sure. I’m not -- it could be but my memory is kind of foggy on that. JJ: Okay. So you felt that you should get involved? Why did you feel that way or... You were a teacher at that time? JB: Well, I was saying a minute ago I was in the Lutheran Action Committee. On Sunday mornings, we used to go to church services to try and meet people and organize around civil [00:15:00] rights and anti-war demands. We would take burlap, colored burlap, and make a serape out of it. Put it over our shoulders. We would have cut-out letters that we put on it making slogans and peace symbols and things like that. (laugh) We’d sort of make a spectacle of ourselves and walk up and sit in the front of the church. Afterwards, try to meet people and get people involved in these discussions. So I was becoming conscious of the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement and learning about those and supporting those demands. So I guess it just seemed what was happening at Waller was just a little bit like an extension of that. JJ: So the boycott was Black students and Latino students or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? JB: Yeah, and white students, too. JJ: And white students, too. Okay now, but they all joined together? 9 �JB: At first, yeah, we had a -- we called for a meeting. I say we because [00:16:00] I’m still not clear who else was involved at the beginning organizing it. I might’ve been one of the main people involved. But we organized at the church on Armitage near -- Armitage and Halsted. That’s a church that the Young Lords use -- eventually worked out of. Do you remember the name of it? JJ: Armitage Avenue United Methodist Church. JB: Okay. JJ: On Dayton and Armitage. JB: Yeah. So we got permission to use that for a meeting -- organizing a meeting. And I don’t know if we put out flyers or how the word got out but there was a -- it was a pretty good size meeting. A lot of people there from the projects, from Cabrini-Green. JJ: Now this was before the Young Lords took it over, the church or was...? JB: Yes, it was. JJ: It was before. JB: It was before that. JJ: So they were already letting you use it. JB: Yes. Yes, it was open to the community, I guess. [00:17:00] Then in the midst of that meeting, you and Ralph got up and said, “Where’s the demands for the Puerto Ricans?” I sort of stopped the meeting and we said -- JJ: Ralph is a -- Ralph Rivera. His nick name was Spaghetti. (laughter) JB: Right. Although nobody called him that to his face. 10 �JJ: Okay. We did, we did. I mean, it was just we grew up with him. But Ralph was one of the main Young Lords. JB: Right. I didn’t know either one of you at that time. That’s the beginning of our relationship. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Okay. So that was the beginning? JB: That was the beginning. So we stopped the meeting and had a caucus or you guys had a caucus and came up with some demands. We added those in and continued the meeting and made plans for the boycott. JJ: Okay. So this was [00:00:18] pre-Young Lords. This is just pre-Young Lords as a political group. This isn’t just for -- JB: Yeah. I would say you were just beginning. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Because as I got to know you, that’s what you were doing. So you were already started, I think, at that point. JJ: Right. Oh, okay. You were already started. Okay. Okay, I can understand the timeline. Okay, now what happened with the boycott? JB: We had another organizing meeting that I can remember but it was held in Cabrini-Green. At one point in it, it sort of broke up. There was some disagreement among the Black organizers and the students and so on, the nationalists. They wanted everybody [00:19:00] out so they could discuss their agreements among themselves. They didn’t want to be openly disagreeing, right? So after they straightened it out, there was another meeting. It never really got back together. Somehow, it just sort of -- everybody still wanted the boycott but there was -- it was difficult for Blacks and Puerto Ricans and whites to 11 �work together for some reason. I don’t know. So we ended up having a Black boycott center in Cabrini, we had a Puerto Rican boycott center I think was at the church -- the United Methodist Church. Then at the community center that you were mentioning before, there was some kind of community center in Lincoln Park. JJ: The Concerned Citizens? JB: I think it was the Concerned Citizens. JJ: They were on [Main?] -- JB: The white students had another boycott center, right? JJ: Oh yeah, they were on Lincoln and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JB: I got a few teachers to support it. The first day was pretty successful. There weren’t that many teachers [00:20:00] besides myself that actually were walking the picket line. JJ: Do you remember any of their names or...? JB: One was [Theresa Dubois?] who eventually became my wife. She’s now my exwife. Let’s see. I have another -- well, I still keep up with this man. I was at his house last week. [Myron Stoller?] was an English teacher. I don’t think he’ll mind me using his name because he’s still pretty radical so (laughs) -- JJ: He’s still pretty radical. JB: He’s retired. Yeah. He retired from Waller. He was there for 33 years. JJ: So there were a little group, contingent of radicals inside Waller High School -- JB: Yes, yes. 12 �JJ: -- that were working with the Young Lords and some of the other groups at the time. Okay. JB: Right. I don’t know how closely they worked with the Young Lords. JJ: No, no. Okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: Until the boycott but I didn’t know you guys before. JJ: We were getting close to you. JB: [00:21:00] Right. We were close and shortly after that, Ralph and I became roommates. We rented an apartment together. So at the time we had this meeting, the first organizing meeting, I was living in somebody’s living room temporarily while I was looking for a place to live. I had moved closer to the school. We were talking about -- JJ: Okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) You met Ralph at the meeting. JB: Yeah. And then we continued to -- JJ: You continued to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: -- through the boycott to continue to work together. And I don’t know, probably discussed that I was looking for a place to live and he must’ve been at the same time. JJ: Yeah, because he came from a different neighborhood, Lake View. He was hanging out with us every day at Lincoln Park so -- JB: Oh, okay. So we were both looking for a place to live. JJ: -- you were both looking for a place to live, yeah. Now, so the results of the boycott [00:22:00] was when? I don’t understand. 13 �JB: The first day, like I said, was pretty successful. But it just sort of fell apart after that. It went on for a while and I had been warned not to participate. So I figured I had lost my job by participating. (laughs) It’s a funny story. Just to make a long story short, I was out for two weeks. At one point, the assistant principal came to my -- to where I was staying and asked me to come back to work. So apparently, I was an embarrassment that they didn’t share with their superiors and covered -they covered for me. (laughs) And eventually asked me to come back to work and I started teaching again. I didn’t get paid for the time I was gone, but I got -I went back to teaching with no penalty. It was a weird situation. (laughs) But... JJ: The assistant principal, you said? Came to -- JB: Yeah, [00:23:00] came to my -- I was living in a friend’s living room. I was living with a friend in an apartment. And came to that apartment and asked to speak to me and asked me to come back to work. JJ: Now I remember the first time you met Fred Hampton was at your apartment. Do you recall that at all or...? Fred Hampton of the Black Panthers. JB: Right. I recall the meeting; I don’t recall much about it. I know we studied Mao’s Red Book. There were several Young Lords there. Ralph was there, I think you had to be there. Fred Hampton was there, several Panthers, myself. JJ: And some other Young Lords were there. JB: Right. Yeah. There were several Young Lords, several Panthers. JJ: What was the meeting like? How...? JB: I think it was a study group. Ralph was Minister of Education and [00:24:00] he was holding study groups. Mainly, they were held in the church. 14 �JJ: This was before the church. JB: I think you were -- JJ: I had been there a couple times. JB: -- yeah. I don’t know if you were starting to use the church more frequently or something. I’m not sure. JJ: Yeah, we were using it but -- JB: Yeah, I don’t think you had yet taken it over. Right? And -- JJ: So Ralph was doing the -- JB: Yeah, so he had invited me as his roommate to come to some of the study groups and there was an objection because I wasn’t Puerto Rican. So I think he was trying to have one in our apartment so that I could be included. JJ: (laughs) Okay. JB: There was also the -- by coincidence, it happened to be the same one that Fred Hampton was in so... JJ: Okay. So you came at that time. JB: Right. JJ: Okay. So because that is basically when we submitted the idea for the Rainbow Coalition at that time in one of those meetings. But he had come -- JB: Yeah, it could be. Yeah. JJ: So we were having some -- [00:25:00] so we were having classes in your house at that time. I know we were meeting. JB: Well, I only remember that one. I don’t know if there were others or not. They might’ve been held while I was at work. I was teaching school still. I had been 15 �already teaching at Waller High School for two years so I went to work every day. So yeah, so that’s the only one I remember. JJ: Okay, so you remember when Fred came there, though. JB: Yeah. Of course, that was very memorable because Fred Hampton was there. Yeah. JJ: That was the main one. I think that -- because you mentioned there were other Young Lords, other Panthers and that. So that was the main one. JB: And I remember we had Mao’s Red Book, we were reading out of that and talking -- discussing that. JJ: Okay, at the study groups. That was what was used at the study groups? JB: That one in our apartment was Fred Hampton. That’s the one I remember. That was the only one I was at that I can [00:26:00] remember. JJ: Okay. So we were talking about Mao’s Red Book at that meeting -- at the time of the meeting. JB: Yeah. Right. So I think it was basically a political study group. JJ: Okay. That we were having. Okay. JB: Yeah. There might’ve been other things discussed but I don’t recall them. JJ: Right. Okay. And what was the atmosphere? Was it formal or how was it? JB: No, it was informal. It was an informal atmosphere. Informal enough so that after discussion was over, somebody broke out the pot so (laughter) -- JJ: So that kind of -- JB: So everybody was participating. 16 �JJ: Right, afterwards. Okay. So Ralph passed away but he was one of the -- he and myself designed the button, the Young Lords button. JB: Yeah, I remember that button. JJ: Right. You remember that button when it [00:27:00] first came out? Okay. JB: Yeah. Yo tengo Puerto Rico en mi corazón. JJ: Yeah, right. That’s right. Okay, so I know from one perspective but how do you know Ralph? I mean, he was a roommate, so you saw him every day. But I mean would -- I don’t -- JB: Right. No, we got to be close friends. He married before I did. We got married, I think, in the same year. And so I was best man in his wedding and then he -- I asked him to be best man in my wedding. Unfortunately on the day of the wedding, he had to work. So he couldn’t be there at the ceremony. But no, I mean, we were very good friends. JJ: You mentioned the Red Book. Did he talk any other politics at all or...? JB: Oh, yeah. You guys took me one Sunday, I remember, one Sunday to -(break in audio) JB: -- an [00:28:00] elderly gentleman who was with the communist party and introduced me to Marxism. I had never done it before. I guess he was holding like a study group there so that was my introduction to Marxism, actually. JJ: Okay. At that time, we were all being introduced (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JB: Yeah. In the winter of ’68, during the winter break from school, there was a peace conference up in Montreal. Ralph and I took a bus, I think it was. Or 17 �somehow, we got to Detroit and then we took a train, a Canadian train, when we got into Canada across the river from Detroit. Took a train to Montreal and participated in this peace conference. So we were doing all kinds of political activities like that. When the boycott wasn’t going very strong and Ralph said, “We need support. [00:29:00] Why don’t we go over to Circle Campus, University of Illinois? There’s an SDS chapter there.” So we went to an SDS meeting and we asked for support from SDS. One of the SDS members was a member of the Progressive Labor Party. That’s how I first met somebody in Progressive Labor Party. JJ: So did you become active in Progressive Labor Party? JB: Yeah, I started reading their newspaper and the member that I met at Circle Campus also lived near Waller High School. He came to visit me and I started going to some of their meetings and I’ve been involved ever since. JJ: Oh, so you’re still involved with the Progressive Labor Party? JB: Yeah, yeah. I joined in ’71, 1971. JJ: And at that time, were there a lot of groups like the Progressive Labor Party in Lincoln Park or...? Because it became sort of -- JB: No. They weren’t exactly in Lincoln Park; They were -- in just a small group in Chicago. JJ: Oh, in Chicago. JB: [00:30:00] Yeah. JJ: Okay. But Lincoln Park. You lived right down the street from the church. JB: Yeah, I lived on Dayton. Dayton and Armitage. 18 �JJ: When someone says like Manuel Ramos, were you around when that happened or...? JB: Yes. My first wife, Theresa, and I had just gotten married in April of ’69. As I mentioned, Ralph was supposed to be my best man at the wedding. We were married in her mother’s house in Maywood but we had our reception in Old Town in Chicago. Actually, we’d been threatened by some of the same nationalists who had supported the boycott from Cabrini-Green. They didn’t like the [00:31:00] fact that we were a mixed couple. Theresa’s African American and I’m white, right? They actually came to our apartment one time. We knew them through the boycott so we were friendly to some extent. They appeared at the door. We were at the kitchen table writing out our wedding invitations and they came in and started tearing up our invitations and pushing us around. Pulled the phone out of the wall and left with a couple of our invitations. So at the wedding reception, a number of Young Lords provided security from our wedding reception. (laughter) Because we didn’t know if they’d show up or not. They had the address on the wedding invitation so... JJ: Can you tell me about Manuel? JB: So yeah, so then Manuel Ramos, right? So as I remember it, we went to [Sal Delavera?]’s house. I think that was the name. His daughter [00:32:00] was I think two or something like that. He was having a birthday party for his daughter. JJ: I think it could’ve been [Orlando?] and them with Sal. JB: Yeah. I won’t argue. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) it could be. It could be, yeah. I’m not sure. 19 �JJ: Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know. I think Sal was arrested in -- during that day, too, though. So you could be right. I don’t know. I don’t know whose house it was. I know it was something to do with Orlando’s birthday, maybe Sal’s. I don’t know. JB: Right. So anyway, it was at the birthday party. There were some shots fired outside. We heard ‘em from inside. Then a few minutes later, somebody said, “There’s a guy with a gun outside.” So some of us actually went outside to see this person. There was a guy in jeans, a t-shirt holding a pistol. So we were outside trying to find out what [00:33:00] he was about and trying to keep him calm. We didn’t know til later that he was an officer -- police officer. He eventually fired into the doorway of the house where the party was. And had me by the arm at that point. I was close to him so he had grabbed me by the arm. He said he saw a gun in the doorway, he shot into the house. That’s when he shot Manuel in the eye, he shot Ralph in the jaw. Eventually, the police came. I don’t know if you already -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) at that moving? JB: At what? JJ: He shot him and then what happened? What at that moment? JB: Well, at that moment the other police –- JJ: Did somebody try to attend to Manuel or to...? JB: The police pulled him out. I was still outside. I don’t know what happened inside. I didn’t know Ralph was shot til later at the hospital. All I remember is that the police showed up. [00:34:00] It was very chaotic. I remember them -- four of 20 �them carrying Manuel out of the house like a sack of feed and throwing him into the paddy wagon. I jumped in with them. JJ: You saw that? JB: Oh, yeah. And I jumped into the back of the paddy wagon with Manuel. He was bleeding, he was choking on his blood, and I remember there was a towel on the back of his head so I was holding the back of his head with a towel. I had my fingers in his mouth so that he wouldn’t –- to try to keep his throat clear so he wouldn’t choke on his blood. That’s the way we went to the hospital. When we got to the emergency room, they took him inside. Then outside, I saw [Jackie?] and I know other people. My wife was there. Eventually realized that Ralph had been shot, too. I didn’t know that. They told me Ralph [00:35:00] had been shot and he was in the emergency room, also. So Manuel died about a half hour later. I don’t remember much about the rest of the night (laughs) except we got home somehow so... JJ: Okay. So you saw Jackie and you saw your wife, and you –- JB: There probably were other people there, too. I just don’t recall exactly who. Right. JJ: So you’re not aware if anybody got arrested or anything like that or...? JB: I don’t think anybody got arrested at that point. I don’t recall anybody getting arrested. JJ: Okay. And (inaudible) got arrested -- JB: Ralph never got arrested that I recall. 21 �JJ: No, no. He didn’t get arrested but there were like four of the Young Lords and the [Quatro?] Lords would come together. JB: Well, okay. That was a detail that I didn’t remember that. JJ: Yeah, they were trying to grab the police or something like that. JB: Yeah, well probably the people around me. I jumped in the paddy wagon so I –that’s probably why I didn’t get arrested. (laughs) Because I was on my way to the hospital. JJ: Oh, okay. [00:36:00] That’s what happened. So tell me about the –- what other events do you recall during that time? What do you -- like for example, the McCormick Seminary where -- JB: Yeah, I remember –- forget exactly what year that was. JJ: I think it was the same year. JB: Was that the same year? JJ: Actually, right after [Ramos?], right after Ramos. JB: [Ron?] Ravos? Okay. So -- JJ: Because we named the building after (inaudible). JB: Oh, the law office or the seminary building? JJ: No, the seminary. JB: Okay. Yeah, I remember that the –- that you guys took over the McCormick Seminary administration building. I wasn’t part of the takeover [00:37:00] but I was aware of the plans and I would often go over after work, after school, and I would be admitted into the administration building and I would be assigned a guard duty of some kind. 22 �JJ: So what was it like inside? JB: It was pretty well organized and –- JJ: What do you mean by that? I mean, (inaudible) kind of -- JB: Everybody seemed to have a job to do. I don’t remember exactly the details. I just remember it wasn’t chaotic or anything. Everybody seemed to know what they were doin’. They were continually, constantly prepared in case the police would try to storm the building or take it back. I don’t know. I was part of the guard duty watching out a window. I was up in the back floor somewhere to let anybody know if the police approach from that angle. Then later on, I would go home [00:38:00] afterwards and –- JJ: So you didn’t even sleep there. You went home. JB: No, I didn’t sleep there that I recall. Yeah. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) coming and going at the time. JB: Right. JJ: And press conferences during the day. People –- JB: Yeah. I would be at work during the day. I would go home, sleep, go to work in the morning, and then after work, come back to the McCormick Seminary. JJ: So did it have support or apparently, you were supporting it. Were there other community people supporting it or...? JB: Actually, my landlord was a professor there. He couldn’t say so openly but I think he was in favor of it. Maybe helped to work out the arrangement. They eventually came up with some money. I don’t know, 60- or 70,000 dollars I think it was which was used –- 23 �JJ: Six hundred and one thousand dollars to be invested in low-income housing. JB: Oh, was it? Okay. JJ: Then also [00:39:00] 25,000 for the law office. JB: Well, I understood there was some -- that’s the way it went. Okay. JJ: Twenty-five thousand for the clinics. A couple clinics in the -- JB: Oh, very good. Okay. I didn’t remember all the -- I remember the law office. I remember that some of that money –- JJ: You remember the law office. JB: -- opened The People’s Law Office on Halsted. A couple of the lawyers who worked there, [Skip Andrews?] [Cunningham?], I don’t remember his first name. JJ: [Dennis?]. JB: Dennis? Yeah, [Dennis Cunningham?]. Yeah, I think his son just ran for office in this ward recently. JJ: Oh, did he? JB: Or legis-- maybe no, he just ran for state legislature in this area recently. I don’t remember too much else about it. Oh, they handled the defense -- oh yeah, they handled the defense, then, I think of the four Young Lords were arrested, right? JJ: Right. JB: That was one of the first things they did from the law office. JJ: Exactly, that’s right. [00:40:00] The People’s Law Office did that because we -they got the initial funds from the McCormick’s Seminary takeover that we did. So it was successful. We won all the demands. We were there for (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- 24 �JB: It was successful. There was no police takeover, there was nobody arrested that I recall. Yeah, so it was very successful. JJ: So how did -- you were living in the community. Did you know the neighbors or no? JB: Yeah, I don’t know. I can’t remember names right off hand, but -- JJ: But you knew some of the neighbors? JB: Basically, I knew the Young Lords. I knew my students and their parents; Those were mainly the people I knew. JJ: And what were they saying about the Young Lords at that time? Were they afraid of them or...? JB: No, I think they were -- respected the Young Lords because the Young Lords were the group doing the [00:41:00] most around the housing problems. Because like I said, mayor Daley was tearing down the Puerto Rican community and I think it was the beginning of gentrification, regentrification. So there were a lot of white –- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the beginning. JB: -- young, white yuppies moving in the neighborhood, buying buildings, renovating them, raising the rent so the people couldn’t move back in, (inaudible). JJ: So you’re saying that was the beginning in Chicago of gentrification or...? JB: No, I’m just talking about the Lincoln Park neighborhood which is a very expensive neighborhood now. JJ: Oh, the Lincoln Park neighborhood, okay. Okay, so that was the beginning of the gentrification? 25 �JB: Yes. That was the beginning of gentrification of Lincoln Park. JJ: At Lincoln Park. JB: At Lincoln Park, right. JJ: Okay. You said they were destroying the Puerto Rican neighborhood. Why do you say that? How –- JB: I took the Sedgwick bus to school. I lived on Sedgwick at about 1400 Sedgwick and I used to take the bus then up to [00:42:00] –- the bus stop was two blocks from Waller High School. So I had a two-block walk every morning from the bus stop to the high school itself. I just recall several mornings seeing the bulldozers taking down another house. It seemed like every day, they were tearing down another house. So if you go to Lincoln Park High School now, you see this beautiful campus with the tennis courts and the parking and the green lawn, park area and everything. That all used to be Puerto Rican housing back in ’68, ’69. JJ: So this Waller High School expanded, basically. Are there Puerto Ricans living there at all in any part of Lincoln Park that you know of? JB: I have no idea. I moved out in ’75 or ’76, right in there. I don’t get back there much (laughs) so... JJ: Okay. So you haven’t seen the [00:43:00] change. JB: When I do go through there, I mean I can see the changes. It’s not recognizable from what I -- the neighborhood I remember. The Lincoln Park I remember from ’69, ’70. It’s completely different now. JJ: Because of Ralph, because you guys were roommates, you were able to get closer than other people to the Young Lords. 26 �JB: Yes. JJ: What were your impressions or what was -- how did you see them? You knew them before because you came in ’66 when they were just a little local game. JB: Right. I didn’t really know them even then. When you guys came to participate in the school boycott, that’s when I first got to know you. Then I remember [00:44:00] going to some meetings at the high school around housing issues. JJ: Can you describe how they were? Were they intellectual or what? How were they? JB: I would say they were a militant group that raised good political demands in these meetings. I also remember one time marching down to –- a small group of us marching down to a neighborhood real estate office. I don’t remember the exact name. JJ: [Larry?] -- that was Larry’s. His name was [Fat Larry?] but we gave him that name. JB: (laughs) Okay. I think it was an Italian name like [Romano?] or something –- JJ: Like Romano, yeah, or something like that. JB: -- the name of the real estate company. I was -- JJ: Bissel Street Realty I think it was called. Bissel –- JB: That could be it. Because it was -- yeah, it was a lot. Remember it was west on Armitage and that’s where Bissel Street would’ve been west of Dayton, [00:45:00] right? I remember I stayed outside. It was in the winter time, I believe. I stayed outside because Ralph said it was -- might be tense inside. So they went in and came out a few minutes later. He said they had -- the people 27 �inside had brought out guns. So I sort of got the impression it was sort of mobaffiliated, you know? (laughter) JJ: Because they had guns -- some machine guns. JB: Yeah, right. They were big guns; They weren’t little hand guns. JJ: So you were outside. Were you picketing or...? JB: Yeah, we were outside. We were picketing. JJ: There was picketing outside. JB: Yeah. JJ: And then we went inside. JB: Inside. JJ: And then they pulled out the guns on us. JB: Yeah, that’s what I was told when you guys came out. That’s why you’d left. You weren’t going to get in a shootout. Obviously, that wouldn’t have helped anything. But those are the kind of actions. Taking militant actions, direct actions against the people who were making [00:46:00] money off of this changeover and gentrification. JJ: Okay. So do you know the different institutions that were working with that at that time? JB: I think you guys had started some kind of a breakfast program similar to the Panthers –- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: -- at the Methodist church? JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) church. 28 �JB: Sure. So some of my students I knew had breakfast there, came to school after having breakfast there and yeah. So for myself and the people I knew in the community –- JJ: So you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) personally went in there? JB: Yeah. JJ: Did they talk to you about that or...? JB: Probably did. I can’t remember in detail but I was aware that that was happening. So from my perspective and the people I knew like me and likeminded people in the community and at the school, we had respect for the Young Lords. JJ: So in the school, Waller High School. JB: Right. JJ: There was respect at that time. Was there respect in [00:47:00] the community then also or...? The school, of course, there... JB: That was my feeling. In the Puerto Rican community and in the people I knew in the white community and in the Black community in Cabrini-Green. JJ: The reason I asked –- JB: But then all the people that were trying to get to regentrify and worried about their property, they were against us. JJ: So it was controversial. JB: So it was -- yeah, right. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Yeah, it definitely was a controversial group. It was always my feeling that’s why they changed the name of Waller High School to Lincoln Park. They’re trying to dissociate themselves 29 �from that reputation that Waller had. Because it was -- in the school and outside the school, there was a lot of political activity. The boycott was very political and the Young Lords were leading a lot of political activity around the housing [00:48:00] issues. To me, having come from a non-political background, I was just eating it up. That was my education. My political consciousness was coming about that year of ’68, ’69, and after that. I just continued to grow after that politically. JJ: Did you see any other people or professors or anyone that were waking up at that time? Was that an impact that the Young Lords were having also with some people? With some of the people or no? It was also the time, it was also the time. JB: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) No, I -- yeah, I think it was mainly the times. There was a lot of stuff going on. Anti-war movement was still growing. I remember participating in demonstrations downtown. Big demonstrations, thousands of people. JJ: So the Young Lords were the ones that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) morale because people were already feeling that way. I’m putting words in your mouth. JB: Yeah, I mean [00:49:00] everything sort of flowed together. Those of us -- we may have been involved -- the centers of our activities may be in different places but when we got together, we talked the same language. So... JJ: Okay. I don’t see that today. But at that time, I felt that there was unity. Was it just me or did you feel that? Some kind of -- in the community or...? 30 �JB: As far as anti-racism and anti-Vietnam War, I think there was a lot of unity among various groups of people and various individuals. I guess I had a unique perspective because through Ralph as far as the Young Lords go. I guess some of my friends outside that circle, you know, at school knew I was involved. People I was close [00:50:00] to. (break in audio) JB: And no one chastised me for being involved with the Young Lords. JJ: Actually, many of the Young Lords went to that school. So -- JB: Yeah, I’m sure. JJ: So some of the teachers knew them personally. I mean, I only went to two months (laughter) but I did know some of the teachers there also. But I know that all of the Young Lords -- the majority, not all, of course -- but the majority had gone through there. To Waller High School. The teachers -- JB: Yeah, right. It was a neighborhood school, right? JJ: Right. So coming out in the protest, the teachers would know about that. Were they being impacted by some of the protests because some of them did come out in the news, at the local news at that time. JB: The protest organized by the Young Lords or the school [00:51:00] protest? JJ: Right, right. Well, both. Were they being -- the teachers, were they -- how was that? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: Yeah. There was a small group of us within the school -- actually, it wasn’t even that small -- who were constantly -- we were caught between the administration and the militancy of the students. We sympathized with the students. So we 31 �were all -- therefore had our own problems with the administration. I remember one time, for instance, because the students, one of the tactic was to pull the fire alarm and empty the building to get everybody out. Sometimes, there’d be fights outside and people would be injured. We finally said, “We’re not taking our students out anymore.” The principal said, “No, you can’t do that because of the fire code.” We said, “We don’t care.” We organized and we overrode [00:52:00] the principal and we refused to honor the fire bell after that. We set it up so that we could tell -- we could communicate with each other and find out for sure that there was no fire going on. But when daily fire bells are happening daily, and so we just stopped it. JJ: So you guys were protesting against the principal. The administration of the school at the time. JB: We didn’t have an open protest but we would refuse to do certain things that they wanted us to do. In other words, we would support the students to that extent. JJ: Right. The students were protesting. JB: Yes. JJ: So the students were protesting and you were refusing the Young Lords that are also doing their things. The community is on fire, basically. JB: Yeah, there were also -- right. No, there’s a lot of -- yeah, a lot of activity. [00:53:00] The white liberals in -- at the Concerned Citizens center. The nationalists and the students coming from Cabrini-Green. Everybody was -- JJ: The Black nationalists from Cabrini-Green. The projects there, Cabrini-Green. 32 �JB: Yeah. Everybody was involved in some form. For instance, one of my students - I won’t mention his name because I don’t know right now whether he would appreciate it. But I went to see him later on in life; Nineteen ninety-seven, I looked him up and found him. But at that time, he was a young Black male student and lived in the projects. I think he was about 17. He organized a group called the Black Assassins. It was a anti-racist group and it was (laughs) intriguing that he called it the Black Assassins because he had Black students, he had Puerto Rican students, he had white students in the group. [00:54:00] They would meet in Black homes, Puerto Rican homes, and white homes. At one point, they were meeting in the home of a white student in Lincoln Park in the basement and the police raided the meeting and took them all to jail. Segregated them into cells, white, Black, and Puerto Rican, and told them that’s the way it should be. They use as a pre-text that they had confiscated drugs but none of us believed it. Because we knew the student and he was mainly about the organizing, political organizing. None of us believed that -- we thought that just the police probably planted the drugs. JJ: So this was the 18th district police station. JB: Yeah, 18th district. So -- JJ: Actually, that was [Commander O’Brien?] at the station. JB: So we organized -- yeah, I remember that name now. JJ: Because didn’t he go to jail later or...? JB: I don’t know. JJ: Yeah he did. 33 �JB: Did he? JJ: Yeah, [00:55:00] he went to jail for shaking down (inaudible). JB: Oh, good. He deserved it. JJ: Yeah. (laughs) He was our commander of the police. (laughs) Yeah, he was against the Young Lords but he went to jail for shaking down (inaudible). JB: This was the kind of thing that was happening up at Waller High School. JJ: (inaudible) (laughs) JB: Yeah, no. Yeah, but I’m just saying that that’s the kind of thing -- that’s the relationship with the police. I’m glad you brought that up. Because we went down after Manuel Ramos was shot, we went down and had a demonstration at the police station there after that. But to finish the story about the Black Assassins, so they -- the school tried to kick out the student. In fact, that’s eventually how I lost my job up there. Any time a Black student or a Puerto Rican student would turn 16 or 17, whatever the age when they could legally kick them out of school, they would get out all their records, look for [00:56:00] discipline problems, they would look for grades, anything. Any excuse to drop them. So anyway, so this student organized the Black Assassins, they tried to kick him out. They asked me to sign the sheet and I would not. I refused to sign him out. So I called his mother and asked if she knew that they were trying to get him out of the school. She didn’t know. So we organized a sit-in at the school; At the counselor’s office. We coordinated the time when she would come up to visit the counselor to inquire about her son. We had it all worked out in advance. We put out flyers and called for a sit-in. At the time they came up to the school, the 34 �student body and myself and anybody else -- I forget if there were other teachers involved -- we all went down by the counselors’ offices and occupied the hallway and sat down. We wouldn’t leave until they let him back in [00:57:00] school. JJ: This was the teachers again and the students. JB: Mainly students. I don’t know if there were other teachers. JJ: You occupied the hallway -- JB: I remember that -- JJ: -- of Waller High School. JB: Right. JJ: So Waller High School was occupied not to mention that DePaul University was occupied. JB: Right. Or the seminary? McCormick Seminary? No? JJ: Yeah. No, no, no, DePaul University was occupied by the Black Student Union at that time. JB: Oh no kidding, I didn’t -- JJ: Right after we occupied McCormick Seminary. JB: Oh, very good. I didn’t recall that. JJ: Yeah. The Young Lords occupied McCormick Seminary for a week and then the Black Student Union occupied DePaul. Now, I wasn’t aware of Waller was being occupied -- JB: Yeah, just that one afternoon. JJ: Right. The hospitals were occupied, there were -- they were occupying -- JB: Well, yeah. It was 1968. It was like a watershed year. It was a lot of things. 35 �JJ: But all of this was going on in Lincoln Park, too, in that [00:58:00] community also. JB: Yeah. I think that was in 1970, I believe. JJ: Nineteen -- yeah, it was the exact year. JB: Because we did try to do the same thing for another student in ’71. The principal had had enough. He called in the police and they just came in arresting everybody. I was arrested for trying to keep a student from being arrested and that’s how I lost my job there. JJ: What kind of charge? JB: Eventually, it went to court. They charged me with assaulting two cops and the principal. Those are the charges. I would’ve had felony charges. I went before the grand jury. JJ: You went -- oh, it was a felony. JB: Yeah. So when I went to -- finally went to court, to trial, I had an attorney from the Northwestern University Legal Assistance Clinic, a free clinic, [00:59:00] and he went into talk to the judge. He said the people from the Board of Education were there and they said, “We don’t want him teaching anywhere ever again.” They said in return for that, we’ll agree to reduce the felonies to misdemeanor. My lawyer was really steamed because there were two different situations in two different courts. My job was -- had been ruled on by a hearing in front of the board when they fired me. How did that go? So he said it was unethical. That I should -- he would be my attorney but that he figured I should -- he agreed on my behalf to [01:00:00] accept the plea to a lower -- to misdemeanors. I didn’t go to 36 �jail. So I went through the trial but it was a farce. We knew in advance what the outcome was going to be, that they would find me guilty of misdemeanors instead of felonies. So I had -- I got two years’ probation. JJ: Okay. You got two years’ probation for that? JB: Right. JJ: And you completed the full two years? JB: But my lawyer said that their -- what they did was unethical, what this judge did. And that he gave me the name of another lawyer. He said, “I can’t represent you because I agreed to this.” But he said, “Here’s the name of a lawyer. You should get a lawyer and challenge this and not accept it.” But it was going to cost too much money. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) they call a plea deal to -- JB: To not go to -- to stay out of jail. I mean, a plea deal to stay out of jail. Yeah. JJ: You had to plead guilty. JB: Yeah. JJ: And that was a common thing at that time. JB: But see, it wasn’t like you see on TV where [01:01:00] they go before the judge and say, “We reached this plea agreement.” In other words, the plea agreement was made undercover in a back room and they went through the farce of the trial to cover it up. JJ: Okay, I gotcha. 37 �JB: So I was found guilty by the judge who already knew in advance he was going to reduce it to misdemeanors. But they went through the farce of a jury trial. They actually had the jury hear the -- JJ: Oh, it went to the jury. JB: -- the jury, yeah, and find me guilty. But I don’t know how they redu-- maybe the state’s attorney reduced the charges first. But anyway, I was -- JJ: Had you ever been arrested before or anything? JB: No, that was my first time. JJ: That was your first time. JB: Yeah, I was (laughs) completely unprepared for it. I remember going to court for the first time. I didn’t even have a lawyer. I was completely bewildered, I was trying to figure out what to do, and there -- and I’m trying to ask people and they’re just pushing me aside. So [01:02:00] I finally got a lawyer but like I said, I went to the legal assistance clinic. And he represented me both at trial and also at a hearing. I had a hearing in front of the Board of Education when they actually fired me. Yeah, so that was a lot of activity in those years. JJ: Ralph was a member of the Young Lords gang because the Young Lords gang transformed in 1968. It went right from the gang into the political group. But for a gang member, how did he act to you? Did he appear like a gang member or...? JB: No, no. None of the Young Lords... Of course, I wasn’t familiar with what a gang was, but I consider the Young Lords my friends and we socialize as well as participated in political [01:03:00] activities. I was on friendly terms with everybody. 38 �JJ: How did they treat people? Just, you know... JB: Yeah. I thought they treated people with respect in the community. And they were fighting for people around the issues of housing as well as racism. But mainly the one -- the activities I participated in were around the housing issues. JJ: Because I know that you’re saying that there was some people who had special interests in Lincoln Park who referred to the Young Lords as a gang. Because that has stuck on a lot of people today. JB: Right, because they saw it as a threat -- JJ: They don’t even want to associate with the Young Lords because they were uncultured or... JB: They didn’t bring that up. Mainly, they said that because they felt they were a threat to their property values. JJ: They came right out and said that. JB: Yeah. JJ: [01:04:00] Okay. So that’s what -- JB: Otherwise they were constantly asking for police protection. I’m thinking these are young white guys about my age, right? Why aren’t they seeing what’s going on? Here they are, very conservative, worried about their property and their money and all. So I think they saw the Young Lords as a threat to their property values. JJ: Okay, so that’s what they saw as a threat to the property value. Here’s a gang and -- JB: Yeah. So they couldn’t characterize them as a gang, right? 39 �JJ: But before then, it was a Puerto Rican area where they -- at least around the church. JB: Yeah. It still was, it just was fewer and fewer every year. Fewer and fewer Puerto Ricans living there every year. I left in ’70-- let’s see. I stayed living in the community even though I lost my job in ’71. I was married [01:05:00] and living a little up on Kenmore and Webster. JJ: Oh, Kenmore and Webster, okay. JB: Right. By Roma’s pizza parlor there. JJ: Right. JB: Yeah. So I was still in the community although at that point, I had a different job and I was going out of the community to work. So I was no longer working in a community. JJ: Okay. Now, when you saw the church, you saw the murals. (laughs) What type of impact was that? What were on the murals? What was -- JB: I’m sorry, I -- that’s all -- no, I don’t remember the murals, either. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) at all? They were very clear, visible. They were painted on the church; On the church walls. You didn’t pay attention to it? JB: Just vaguely; I couldn’t remember any of the details of it. JJ: Not the details but I mean -- JB: I remember there were murals, yes. JJ: Okay, you remember [01:06:00] there were murals. But that didn’t happen at that -- 40 �JB: But that was one thing that happened and I think the breakfast program. I don’t know, was there any educational programs? Tutoring, that kind of thing I think was going on? JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Puerto Rican history classes were going on there. But we had the clinic also. We had a free clinic. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: Okay. Yeah, I don’t remember all those details. I was probably aware of it at the time but -- JJ: So people just can’t -- JB: -- some things stick out in my mind now at the age of 70 (laughs) and some things are lost. Some things are coming back to me when you mention names like the police captain’s name. I recognize that name but I haven’t thought about that for -- since that time so... JJ: Right. It’s on my mind because I’m doing this research. But... [01:07:00] (pause) Okay, were you at any of the marches or anything like that or...? JB: That the Young Lords did? JJ: Right. You mentioned one at the police station. JB: Yeah, down at the police station that time we visited the real estate office. JJ: What about Rev. Bruce Johnson and Eugenia Johnson? Do you remember when they were killed? JB: Yes. JJ: What do you remember? I was in jail then. What do you remember about that? JB: Oh. I just remember -- 41 �JJ: I got -- he bonded me out to come up to service. The bishop bonded me out to come to the service. JB: I couldn’t tell you if I went to the service or not. JJ: But how did that affect -- was there any talk at the school? Or any...? JB: I [01:08:00] know people, everybody had a different idea what might’ve happened. JJ: What was the talk at that time? JB: Some of the talk of -- let’s see if I can remember. Because I guess they’d been -actually been tied up and something like being executed. I guess some people may have thought that gangs were involved. Some people may’ve thought it was just a crazed drug person or something look for money. I don’t know. I really can’t recall exactly what people were talking about but I just remember speculating with people about it why. It was a mystery to most -- me and my friends. We couldn’t quite figure out -- JJ: But it was being discussed [01:09:00] or no? JB: Well yes, it was definitely being discussed. My landlady who was a -- before I got married, anyway. I moved in with my wife -- my ex-wife, my fiancé at the time. Moved in with her and her sister in the Lincoln Park area. Their landlord and later my landlord, his wife was a teacher at Columbia College and I think she wrote an article about that that was in a major magazine. But I couldn’t tell you the name of the magazine and I don’t know that I’ve ever read the article. So it definitely was a topic of discussion in the area, yeah. But that’s as much as I can remember. 42 �JJ: But they thought [01:10:00] it could’ve been a gang or some crazy person? Because they were stabbed multiple times. So it could’ve been a... Some people even thought it was the Young Lords or was that discussed or no? JB: I didn’t think it was and I don’t recall that anybody that I was associated with thought it was. JJ: Why didn’t you think it was? JB: Because I knew the Young Lords. That just didn’t sound like Young Lords to me. I think the Young Lords had a good relationship with the church and the minister and would’ve respected him for opening up the church. I would imagine that he probably got some flack for it from his own congregation. To me, the [01:11:00] Young Lords were my friends. I participated in what they were doing because I thought it was right so... JJ: So you couldn’t -- would be something that it would be something incredible to be better for you to think that it would be the Young Lords. JB: Yeah, somebody would have to show me some really solid evidence before I would believe anything like that. JJ: Okay. But in -- could it have been planned at all? What the Young Lords were talking was that maybe it was planned by the CIA or somebody like that. JB: That I have no (laughs) -- JJ: Just giving you a different perspective. JB: Yeah, I don’t remember that theory or yeah. JJ: Okay, now you stayed there since ’75 and then that -- and then after that, what happened for you? 43 �JB: [01:12:00] My wife and I split up in -- at the -- in ’74. (break in audio) JB: So eventually, I moved out of the neighborhood and I moved to South Shore about a year later, maybe six months later. Seventy-five I think I moved out. Then from South Shore, I moved to this house here. JJ: Were you -- did you stay? JB: When I was in South Shore, I married my second wife. JJ: Okay. JB: My current wife, Ellen. JJ: Did you stop being active or after that or...? JB: No, I continued to participate with Progressive Labor Party. JJ: Okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) How did it...? JB: In the ‘70s, we helped to drive the Nazis out of Marquette Park, for instance. JJ: Oh, okay. The Progressive Labor Party did that? JB: Right. [01:13:00] We broke the band and they weren’t allowing people to march into Marquette Park from Englewood, for instance. So we organized a picket line in front of the Nazi headquarters in fall of -- in the spring of ’77. We still have a picket line from their headquarters. We had to physically fight them to maintain the picket line. So we broke that band. We invaded their headquarters, had a political meeting the following year, and trashed the place and drove the people out. One of our members was arrested and we supported her through her trials or through her court case. It never actually went to trial because we kept the pressure on them until finally, we had a May Day March in May Day of 1979. 44 �They were not able to mop any kind of resistance to our May Day march at the Marquette Park. The state’s attorney eventually dropped the case. He tried to reinstate it once. It got dropped once, he tried to [01:14:00] reinstate it once, and eventually, the Nazis didn’t show up to testify and he dropped the case. There was a little bit more to it than that but that’s a long story short so... JJ: Right. So now, what are you doing now, basically? JB: I retired in 1997 as a high school teacher. I’m teaching at the college level, Chicago State University. I teach part-time. Biology to non-majors. I continue my activities in the Progressive Labor Party. JJ: You’re very active. It sounds like you’re very active in the Progressive Labor Party. Are you getting higher in position now there or no? JB: It’s not -- no, we don’t really have higher positions. [01:15:00] Basically, our clubs and leaders and we’re active on the campus helping students organize around student demands. JJ: Were you involved with this Occupy Wall Street movement at all? JB: Yeah. When it came up, I would go downtown Chicago and students at Chicago State were affected by it. We helped to organize an Independent Student Union Chapter last year. That by Thanksgiving time, they were occupying an administration building around their demands. So yeah, I’m still (laughs) doing as much as I can. I’m not as energetic as I used to be. JJ: In between cutting the little piglets or...? (laughter) I wrote a -- I’m [01:16:00] (inaudible) an ad into the biology class. JB: Oh, the dissection? Yeah, we’re still doing that. 45 �JJ: You’re still doing that? JB: Yeah, I’ll be doing that this semester. Cutting open a fetal pig with the students, yeah. JJ: I don’t know. What else? Is there anything that we haven’t said? JB: That we haven’t covered? JJ: That we haven’t covered? We didn’t really get into your -- JB: Yeah, I know -- I don’t remember when Ralph moved out to California. But after Ellen, my wife and I, got married in ’77, she had been working in California. I met her when her father died; She came back to Chicago to be with her mother. Though [01:17:00] when we went back there to visit, I think the first time was on our honeymoon, we went out there. I had some idea where Ralph was living and I finally found him through the post office. So I visited him out there. A couple years later, we went back. I visited him again one more time and then we sort of lost track. I hadn’t realized he died until you told me this evening. So yeah, I’m sorry to hear that. JJ: Did you ever meet his other family? JB: His brother, [Luis?]. I knew [Quinn?]’s -- JJ: Luis was a Young Lord, too. I was saying -- JB: Oh, was Luis? I wasn’t sure -- I didn’t remember that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Yeah. I think I met his father at the wedding. But that’s -- I’ve seen Luis more than once. JJ: Okay. You saw him more than once? [01:18:00] 46 �JB: Yeah, but just briefly. Let’s see. I knew Quinn; I knew Quinn was a baby. I remember when Quinn was born. JJ: What kind of work did his father do? JB: Ralph’s father? JJ: Yeah. JB: I can’t recall. JJ: I know they were from Lake View, too. They were -- JB: Ralph worked for the airlines. I know that. JJ: Oh yeah, he worked for the airlines. JB: He worked for American Airlines. He was still working for American Airlines when he was out in California. JJ: (inaudible) got those jobs. (inaudible) like that. [Division P?] was another one there. But his father, what about the...? JB: I don’t recall what his father did. JJ: All right. Okay. Anything else that we haven’t covered yet? JB: No. JJ: You’re living now on the south side. JB: [01:19:00] I’m living here? JJ: I mean we don’t need to hear this. JB: Oh where we are now you mean? JJ: You’re not on the north side anymore I mean. JB: Oh, no. I haven’t been on -- lived on the north side since ’75. JJ: Is this where you’re active here basically or...? 47 �JB: Yeah, yeah. JJ: In this area or...? JB: I belong to a group called Unity and Diversity -- [Unity in Diversity?] in this neighborhood. After I retired, I joined in ’98. It was a group that was organized around some of the hate crimes in this area. Even though it has a reputation of being an integrated area, it doesn’t mean that people knew how to get along. Actually, in the late ‘90s, this was the -- this 19th ward here including Beverly, Morgan Park, and Mount Greenwood, had the highest number of hate crimes of any ward in the city. [01:20:00] Ninety-seven, 98. So I got involved in that group. Since the war in the Middle East or I mean since the war in invasions of Iraq, there was a peace organization. [South Side of Peace?] was organized. In fact, I’ll be attending a meeting tomorrow night. So I’m probably involved in too many things. (laughs) Hard to keep up with everything. JJ: Anything else? Otherwise what about for Hampton? Did you follow what happened to him? Because that was not too long after Rev. Johnson. JB: Right. What was that, 1970 I think? JJ: Right. Because (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) once; it was a -- JB: I was aware of it. JJ: You were just aware of it. JB: Oh, yeah. [01:21:00] Very much aware of it. But I wasn’t in touch with any Panthers; Didn’t know any Panthers. JJ: Okay. But you knew it was like a Rainbow Coalition with the Young Lords and the Panthers and that or were you familiar with that? 48 �JB: Not too familiar with that. I knew that there was friendly feeling and we had that meeting that time in our apartment. My feeling was that the Young Lords were sort of trying to pattern themselves after what the Panthers were doing. JJ: Okay. Do you know any of the programs? JB: The only other contact I had with that is in 19-- when I met Ellen in ’76 I believe it was, she’s a retired attorney. JJ: Oh, to your wife? JB: Yes. When she came back as I mentioned, she came back to Chicago. So [01:22:00] she was not a part of any particular -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) attorney or...? JB: No. Although she participated in that trial with the -- she wasn’t an attorney in court, but they had several attorneys around that Black Panther defense. JJ: Which...? Okay, so your wife [Alan?]? JB: Right. So she helped -- JJ: What’s her last name? JB: Hirschmann. [Ellen Hirschmann?]. Yeah. So she participated in that defense. She was -- JJ: With the People’s Law Office? JB: Yeah. JJ: Okay. JB: She was assigned to go through all these photographs that the Red Squad had taken all those years to try to find -- JJ: The Red Squad? 49 �JB: Remember the police, the Red Squad? JJ: What were they? What were they -- yeah, I’m (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JB: No, right. I know you know. JJ: (laughs) JB: This group of police officers in the Chicago police department [01:23:00] that were assigned to harass radicals or infiltrate radical groups. One of the things they did to intimidate people was take a lot of photographs at rallies and marches. JJ: They actually were parked 24 hours a day in front of the church. JB: I believe that. (laughs) JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: And I probably knew that at the time. JJ: The police car was there all the time. JB: Yeah, I probably knew that at the time but... JJ: So they were in charge of taking photographs and... JB: That was one of the things they did. So they were -- you would have to talk to Ellen. I don’t know what they were looking for but she was assigned to go through that were involved, those photographs that had something to do with the Panthers. And look for anything that would be useful in court. JJ: Was she to retire now or...? JB: Yeah. Her -- JJ: Or is she...? 50 �JB: [01:24:00] That wasn’t the main thing she did but that was about the time she came back to Chicago when that was going on. But she eventually got involved with representing -- she was part of the -- what was it called? Cook County Legal Assistance Foundation, something like that. And eventually ended up in private practice with attorneys who were suing the -- suing Ronald Reagan’s government for denying social security disability. And Black long benefits to people in Illinois. So actually, she had a very high winning percentage because they just denied everybody out of hand. Eventually, the courts finally told them they couldn’t do that anymore because they were just flooded with these [01:25:00] cases and they were ridiculous cases so... JJ: So she was winning. That’s good. JB: Yeah. They had no business denying them in the first place but they just were -that was their policy. Deny everybody and see -- and let you hire a lawyer to challenge it. Which a lot of people couldn’t do. Unless they could get a lawyer like in her department, they would do it on a contingency basis. (pause) Like I mentioned, the last time I talked to Ralph was probably around ’79, ’80 in California. I’ve never seen Jackie or Quinn. JJ: Quinn was his son? JB: Son. I think that [01:26:00] was his name, yeah. Since he left Chicago. Since they broke up. Or anybody else in his family. I don’t think I’ve seen any of the Young Lords. I remember [Pancho?] getting killed. JJ: Jose, Pancho, what do you remember about him? His death? 51 �JB: It was pretty horrible. I think he was beaten to death with a baseball bat or something. That’s -- JJ: Because of his skin, basically. He was dark-complected Puerto Rican, I guess. JB: I never knew the circumstances. I just remember hearing about it. JJ: Yeah. Something he was defending his brother from another -- like a white gang. JB: Oh, I didn’t realize that. JJ: Yeah. He was standing up for his brother, yeah. They called his brother names and he went back and [01:27:00] they got him, basically, so... But that’s the way he was. Pancho would not be afraid -- he’s a young guy. He wasn’t afraid to tell them back. But the significant thing about that was that we went to trials and they said justifiable homicide. Not justifiable homicide but they didn’t arrest anybody. One of the guys was a brother to a policeman so that’s why they didn’t arrest him. But we went to his trial and it was like they ignored the Puerto Rican community, basically. So that was the significance of that trial. JB: Of the Puerto Rican Four? Quatro? JJ: No, Pancho. Pancho. The Quatro Lords was ma-- right. They didn’t arrest anybody -- they didn’t arrest James Lamb and they tried to blame -- JB: Oh Lamb, maybe it was the cop’s name, yeah. JJ: They tried to blame the Quatro Lords for it [01:28:00] in the Mauel Ramos case. What I heard was that they tried to grab the off-duty policeman and were turning him into the police. Because they didn’t know he was a cop at the time. That’s what I heard. But I mean I wasn’t there; You were there. 52 �JB: Yeah. As I recall, they were just simply trying to find out who he was and keep him calm. Because he had this gun and none of us had a gun going up against him so... JJ: No, I mean after the shooting is what I’m saying. That they jumped on him or something and they -- that’s why they arrested these four people. (inaudible) Lords. JB: Oh. Oh, that could be. Things happen so fast. I remember going outside, I remember being -- trying to deal with him, trying to talk to him. I remember him firing and then I remember seeing Pancho being carried out and I ran [01:29:00] towards him. JJ: You mean Manuel, Manuel. JB: Yeah, I’m sorry. Manuel. JJ: Manuel Ramos, yeah. JB: Seeing Manuel being carried out and I ran toward him. When they threw him in - they just tossed him into the paddy wagon. JJ: Were they drunk at the party? They just tossed him into the paddy wagon. JB: Yeah, they just tossed him in the paddy wagon. No, no, there was nobody out. People were drinking. I was drinking. But I’d only had a couple. Nobody was drunk to the point where they were making bad judgement or something like that. JJ: Was it a wild party or...? JB: No, it wasn’t. I guess what drew the cop to us was the shots that were fired outside the party -- outside in the alley. We were having a party so I guess he 53 �figured it had something to do with us, right? [01:30:00] So then after I jumped in the van, I don’t know what happened after that. JJ: So there was some noise in the alley and he came to the party. It didn’t have to do with the party. JB: Right. This was a few minutes later. JJ: Okay. Oh, not right away. This was -- JB: No. We weren’t even sure, at least I wasn’t even sure, that it had -- that there was any connection. I think we sort of figured this all out later. Because at the time, things were happening really fast, you know? JJ: Uh-huh. Then he just shot into the hallway and that’s where Manuel was standing? JB: Into the doorway of the house. JJ: Into the doorway of the house. JB: Yeah, so some of us were outside. The cop with the gun was outside and other people had come. They were all crowded in the doorway looking to see what was happening. And he fired into the doorway. JJ: So all they were doing was trying to figure out what was going on. [01:31:00] There were people outside already. He actually grabbed your arm and fired. JB: Right. And fired. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) At the same time he was firing, he had one -- he had his left hand on my arm and his right hand -- I think he was right-handed -- firing the gun. JJ: At random. There was no one with a gun there. 54 �JB: Right. I’m not sure what -- how I responded then. I don’t know if I hit the ground or what happened but I can’t remember anything until my next memory is seeing them dragging Manuel out. At some point, other cops showed up. Then I don’t know exactly when that was so... JJ: But you jumped into the paddy wagon and tried to help him. JB: Yeah, they just tossed him in like he was a sack of grain. I could see he was bleeding so I jumped in. Next thing I [01:32:00] know, the doors are shut and we’re heading toward the hospital. JJ: This was like a baptism or something or a birthday? JB: It was a birthday party as I recall. JJ: For a little girl or...? JB: Yeah. Two-year-old daughter. JJ: Was somebody -- either Sal’s or Orlando’s. JB: Yeah. You can correct me if I’m -- I may be wrong on whose daughter it was but that’s how I recall it. It was a birthday party. My wife and I were still on our honeymoon. I think I was supposed to go back to work the next Monday. This was like the weekend before school started up again. We got married on spring break. JJ: So it was a birthday party. Were there kids in there, too, or...? JB: I guess so, yeah. Must’ve been. I don’t remember a lot of kids but -- JJ: You saw some kids. JB: There was -- yeah. JJ: Because it was a party for kids. 55 �JB: It was mainly adults, so I don’t know if it was an excuse to have an adult party (laughs) or what. JJ: [01:33:00] Okay, but it was mainly adults. JB: It seemed to me that it was a birthday party. JJ: But it was not wild adults. These are family. JB: No. No. It was like a family party, right. It was -- JJ: It was like a family party. JB: Yeah. Food and cake and music and everybody having a -- JJ: And this officer James Lamb. JB: The lights were on. It wasn’t dark or anything. Lights were bright and everybody was talking and having a good time so... JJ: Okay. So everybody -- the lights were on, everybody -- it was a family party. There was some noise outside and people are wondering what it is and it’s -- JB: We had heard gun shots outside. We knew gunshots had been fired. So I don’t know how much later it was that somebody came in and said, “There’s a man outside with a gun. So -- JJ: As far as you know, it could’ve been him shooting. It could’ve been shooting. As far as -- JB: So I followed other people. [01:34:00] Yeah, as far as I knew, I -- JJ: (laughs) I’m being subjective but -- JB: Yeah. I’m following other people. I saw other people go out. I think Pancho was one -- (break in audio) 56 �JJ: Right. Pancho was there, yeah. JB: I don’t recall who the others were and -- JJ: I know Sal was there. Pancho was there, Sal Delavera -- JB: I know Sal was at the party, right. JJ: The original Pete they called him -- Martinez, [Pete Martinez?]. JB: Okay, I don’t recall. JJ: The original Pete. There was one more but I don’t know if it was Ralph. I don’t know if it was another -- JB: Ralph was inside. JJ: Oh, Ralph was inside. Okay. JB: Yeah, because he was in the doorway. JJ: Okay. JB: That’s why he -- Pancho was in the doorway, Ralph was in the doorway. Pancho got shot through the eye, Ralph got shot through the jaw. JJ: Manuel got shot through the head. JB: I (covers face) -- JJ: Manuel -- sorry. JB: Manuel. I keep -- JJ: [01:35:00] Ralph got shot through the jaw? JB: Yeah. Pancho and I were outside. JJ: Okay. And then our thing was we were -- we made a -- we had several demonstrations. I mean, his funeral was large. But our main concern was that we didn’t just want the police to get away with that. That’s why it went through 57 �the courts, filled up the courts and all that. But again, they claimed justifiable homicide so -JB: Yeah. And also, I remember they tried to cause friction between the [Peace Dones?] and Young Lords. JJ: What do you remember about that? JB: I don’t know. We might’ve had more than one demonstration down at the police station but I remember -- one I remember. We were at the police station and outside the police station, rather, [01:36:00] at a demonstration. At one point, Ralph came up to some of us and said that -- was it the Cobra Stones? I think they had pink [tams?]. JJ: Cobra Stones (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JB: Cobra Stones, right, red [tams?]. So there was a bunch of them off to the side and Ralph said they worried about them. It looked like they were trying to break up our demonstration or something. But apparently, they went and talked with them and got -- and reached some kind of agreement. Or they didn’t know exactly why we were there, maybe. They went over and explained. I wasn’t one of them but I know some people went over and explained to them what it was all about. We were able to bring about some unity. JJ: This was because we were marching through the projects. We had (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) to march through the projects to get to the -- JB: Yeah. We had to get there to get to the [18th?] Street. You had to go down Division Street because 18th district was on Division Street. Division and [Park?], right. 58 �JJ: Eighteenth district police station, yeah. [01:37:00] So we had marched for almost -- I think it was like five miles or something, right? Or four miles. JB: I don’t know what it is. It was a good-size march, yeah. JJ: Right, so we marched about three or four miles or five miles to the police station but you had to go through the projects. JB: Right. If you go down Halsted to Division, then you go through the projects. JJ: Yeah, so I -- we didn’t want to disrespect the Cobra Stones because that was their neighborhood. They were looking at us bad because we were bringing these people through their neighborhood. Later on, they admitted that the gang intelligence unit had paid them money to try to disrupt that march and also McCormick Seminary. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JB: I probably knew that. That’s where my -- yeah. JJ: So we had the Red Squad and the gang intelligence unit that was at your -- the group. JB: Right. Now, see this is another reason why I didn’t see the Young Lords as a gang. Because gangsters would’ve [01:38:00] taken offense and things would’ve escalated, right? But Ralph is saying, “Let’s figure this out. Let’s develop some unity here.” I guess that’s how they found out by talking with them that they had been approached by the police. JJ: And he was the Deputy Minister of Education, Ralph Rivera -- JB: Yes, that’s what I remember. 59 �JJ: And so you remember that class of the Red Book so they were using the Red Book and Fred was there. Fred Hampton was there at that time. So did you get to know Fred Hampton? You got to meet him? JB: I got to meet him but we didn’t get chummy or anything. JJ: Okay. But it was more relaxed. When we were -- the Young Lords and the Panthers were together, they were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JB: Oh yeah, it was very informal. Yeah. JJ: Informal. JB: It was formal to the extent of it was a study group [01:39:00] and so we studied and we had something to study and there was a discussion. But then afterwards, it was socializing. JJ: Right. I know Fred Hampton never used marijuana. I just want to make that clear. I know that for a fact. JB: Okay, well I don’t -- JJ: That’s not saying that I didn’t use it but -- JB: Right. (laughs) JJ: But he definitely didn’t do it. I want to make that clear. JB: Yeah. JJ: But it was informal. It was relaxing and we were in a coalition with the Panthers. So we were in the Rainbow Coalition. JB: Yeah. I wasn’t involved in those things but -- JJ: No, you were not involved in it. Yeah. JB: -- but that much of the business of the Young Lords but -- 60 �JJ: But I didn’t know why we were meeting. I didn’t know that that was Ralph’s house, too. JB: Yeah, we were roommates. JJ: Yeah, see I didn’t know that. That’s why we used to use that house a lot. (laughter) While you were in school teaching. JB: Well, it was fine with me. JJ: No, that’s fine. They used my house, too, until I [01:40:00] got evicted. (laughter) Some of it was prior to the church takeover. And then after, it was (inaudible), too. Yeah. The church takeover was like one day and the next day, we were working together, right? JB: Yeah. JJ: It was just one day and then we decided, “This is not a takeover,” because Rev. Johnson was with us. You understand what he said? “We’re not going to disrespect you. This is not a takeover. Let’s just set up the programs.” JB: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Yeah, it seemed to be a good relationship (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) between at least the minister and the Young Lords. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) He must’ve had some support from his congregation. JJ: We had some support from the congregation but a lot of the congregation didn’t want us there. JB: Yeah, I believe that. JJ: But the (inaudible) especially. (laughs) There were some (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 61 �JB: (laughter) Oh yeah, no. I can believe that. JJ: But okay. Any final thoughts? JB: [01:41:00] I’ll probably remember some things tomorrow but right now, I can’t think of anything. JJ: Okay. So that’s it? We’re going to end there or...? JB: Yeah, I’ll leave it up to you. If you have other questions, I’ll be happy to answer them. JJ: I think we covered. I mean what you’re doing now, you’re at Chicago State, you’re working with the Progressive Labor Party still. JB: Still, yeah. JJ: Okay. Did you guys work at all in the journey to (inaudible) Washington timeframe or...? JB: No, we’re not involved in electoral politics. JJ: In electoral politics? JB: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So you guys didn’t like the fact that I ran for Alderman. (laughter) Things happen, right? JB: I wasn’t -- I probably wasn’t -- JJ: You’re allowed to make mistakes. (laughs) JB: I don’t vote, but on the other hand -- JJ: Is that how you look at it? We’re allowed to make some mistakes, right? (laughter) JB: But knowing you, I would’ve probably figured you had good intentions. 62 �JJ: All right. We looked at it as a -- just an organizing vehicle. We didn’t believe [01:42:00] that through elections, we were going to make change. But we looked at it as an organizing vehicle and we did pretty well getting 39 percent of the vote so -- JB: Yeah. I don’t know that at some point, we might not do the same in the Progressive Labor Party if we see it useful as a vehicle but -- JJ: It was survival, too. They were trying to destroy the group so that was one way to keep our group in the public eye. JB: Oh, okay. Yeah. It’s -- JJ: So that was another reason that we did that. We got criticized for -- from the left, from some on the left. JB: Yeah, I’m sure. JJ: But we’re okay. We’re okay with it. I think we covered... Any -- in your life personally that you think that people should know about you and your family? JB: (pause) I’m [01:43:00] happy that my wife supports me in my political work and my children. They’re not members of Progressive Labor Party but they’re not giving me grief for being there, being a communist. So they don’t necessarily agree with everything but I’m happy to have a family that was able to survive the high school years without getting in drug -- involved in drugs or anything like that. Let’s see, seven out of eight are working. My kids and their spouses or fiancés (laughs) and stuff; That’s good. JJ: Any good things happening at Chicago State or...? 63 �JB: It’s an interesting story because when I [01:44:00] started teaching at the college level, I started teaching at [Daley City College?]. Wayne Watson was the chancellor over the City Colleges. He’s now my boss again at Chicago State. But when I was at City Colleges as a part-timer, half the classes were being taught by part-timers. We had no union organization. We were getting low or very low wages, very few benefits. The pension was all, the pension plan. So we organized a union. As a result, it was -- I didn’t keep my job very long. They found ways to ease me out. Part-timers, we -- basically, we renew our contract every semester. When we turn in our grades, we’re basically unemployed. So my contract wasn’t renewed so I got a job at Chicago State and all of a sudden, I see the same guy’s (laughs) over there, my boss. So [01:45:00] not happy about that but I’m happy to be working with my colleagues and I’m happy to be working with the students so... I still take the side of the students against the administration. (laughs) JJ: We’ll leave it there. JB: Okay. JJ: Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 64 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5713db658bccb91e30d3731bd4571746.mp4 5159a4353ee68f713e431f1aeef27f77 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry John Boelter vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Boelter_John Title A name given to the resource John Boelter video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boelter, John Description An account of the resource John Boelter was one of the Chicago Teachers Union members on strike in September 1968 at Waller High School, known today by its new name, Lincoln Park High. Today he is a Professor of Biology at Chicago State University. In 1968, a prominent Young Lord, Ralph “Spaghetti” Rivera returned from Puerto Rico and subleased a room from Dr. Boelter. Mr. Rivera, who grew up in Lakeview, wanted to be closer to the Young Lords who were then hanging out in front of the Armitage Avenue United Methodist Church which later to become the People’s Church, on the corner of Dayton Street and Armitage Avenue. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Rivera had been hanging out with M.P.I. (Movimiento Pro Independencia) and F.U.P.I. (Federacion Universitaria Pro Independencia) their student auxiliary, at University of Puerto Rico campus in Rio Piedras. He was going through a political transformation. Upon arriving in Chicago, Mr. Rivera soon discovered that his Young Lords colleagues were also going through a transformation. They had been reorganized once again by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the members were struggling with each other on whether to remain apolitical as just a gang or to become a human rights movement. Mr. Rivera joined in fully to help Mr. Jiménez, and they together designed the original Young Lords button that read, “Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón ( I have Puerto Rico in my heart) with a green map of Puerto Rico in the center, and a brown arm and fist holding a rifle. The initials YLO, which stood for “Young Lords Organization,” was at the bottom. They had added organization to their name, to make it clear that they were now involved in a class struggle, fighting for Latinos, the poor, and for Puerto Rican self-determination. Mr. Rivera became one of the Young Lords’ first P.E. (political education) class teachers, as these sessions were being held in the different homes of members including. LP Records of speeches by Malcom X, Fidel Castro, Don Pedro Albizu Campos, Mao Tse Tung’s Little Red Book, the National Question, Panther films, and Saul Alinsky strategies were being used as tools for study. It was in Mr. Boelter’s and Mr. Rivera’s house where Chicago Black Panther Party Chairman Fred Hampton and the Panthers first arrived on Dayton and Armitage. They were led from the corner to the house to meet Dr. Boelter, Mr. Rivera, Mr. Jiménez, and the Young Lords. The Black Panthers broke bread and drank Wild Irish Rose (Fred Hampton did not drink or use drugs) on ice, smoked some weed, and joked a little, cementing a relationship that has lasted to this day. On a different day within a few weeks at the same location, it was informally agreed to join together with the Young Patriots. BPP Field Marshall Bob Lee was working with them. The three groups, who were already major players within their own communities, became the original members of the alliance known as the Rainbow Coalition. This was followed by several press conferences announcing the Rainbow Coalition, including one where Congressman Bobby Rush, appears in a photo with the Young Lords, Young Patriots and other Black Panthers but where Mr. Jiménez and Mr. Hampton were unable to be present. The Rainbow Coalition was strongly woven together to the credit of the organizations that took part in it. They all were committed and followed the same vanguard ideology of the BPP. But it is significant to note that the Rainbow Coalition was more symbolic than a structured organization. It was the mass way for all the grassroots organizations to find common ground and to join together for support of each other’s struggles, and it soon spread to other movements and groups like Rising Up Angry, the Intercommunal Survival Committees, Red Guard, Brown Berets, S.D.S. and many other groups in many cities. After the Young Lords went underground and the Puerto Rican and low income residents of Lincoln Park were completely removed by Mayor Richard J. Daley and his patronage machine, Dr. Boelter moved south to Morgan Park. Dr. Boelter also joined the Progressive Labor Party. The Progressive Labor Party had left the Communist Party years before, because their belief was that “they want to skip the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and go right into utopia.” They are against racism and respect workers, but do not want to cling on to leaders or unions, preferring to organize the masses. They have been accused of “catering more to the petty bourgeoisie and the aristocracy of labor.” Then they rejected the Black Panthers and Young Lords use of Nationalism as an important step. They also had become part of S.D.S. and by 1969 were their largest faction. Dr. Boelter today is still a member. These political discussions on all sides were part of the Lincoln Park era in the late 60s and 70s. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b7d0c6675b77625985ba6f041d71e276.pdf 934524a445d56c645d7c04c912156b92 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee(s): Sijisfredo Avilés Interviewer(s): José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/1/2012 Biography and Description English Sijisfredo Avilés is the first Puerto Rican in Chicago to publicly oppose the Vietnam War draft during the middle 1960s. He quietly served three years in jail for refusing induction in 1968 and later and became a member of the Communist Party USA. Born in Puerto Rico, Mr. Avilés’s family moved to Chicago in the early 1950s, settling around Chicago Avenue and Noble Avenue, just west of Ogden Avenue and downtown. Mr. Avilés has been a lifelong advocate for the poor, Latino self-determination, and human rights. He has been a member of the Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), the Puerto Rican Socialist Party of Chicago (PSP), and the Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center in Chicago. All of these groups worked closely with the Young Lords. Spanish Sijisfredo Avilés es el primer Puertorriqueño en Chicago que públicamente opongo el recluto para la guerra de Vietnam en los 1960s. Silenciamiento sirvió 3 años en la cárcel por rechazar inducción en 1968 y mas tarde se hizo mimbré del parte comunista en USA. Nacido en Puerto rico, La familia de Avilés so movió a Chicago en los 1950s, estabilizándose en Chicago Avenue y Noble Avenue, que esta oeste de Ogden Avenue y el centro. Señor Avilés a soportado los pobres, los Latino auto determinados y los derechos humanos. Avilés ha sido un miembro de Latín American Defense Organization (LADO), el �Puerto Rican Socialist Party of Chicago (PSP), y el Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center en Chicago. Todos estos grupos han trabajado juntos con los Young Lords. �Transcripts JOSE JIMINEZ: Anytime you want. It’s rolling, so anytime you want. SIJISFREDO AVILES: Let me take some deep breaths. JJ: You can take some deep breaths. No problem. SA: Okay, I’m ready. JJ: So if you can tell me what your name is, what you’re doing now, and then we will start backwards and (inaudible). SA: Okay. This will be in English, right? JJ: Yeah, it’s better English, because (inaudible). SA: Okay. Sijisfredo Avilés. JJ: Could you (inaudible) [sorry?]. SA: Okay. I was born in Moca, Puerto Rico in 1941. I’m sorry, 1942. February 13, 1942. And I came to Chicago in 1951. One of the things about this trip was that it was my mother and my brother’s sister, my aunt, my grandparents, we all came together [00:01:00] to Chicago because at that time, my father asked my mother to come in, and then my father was very close to my smallest brother. So he says, “If he goes, I’m going with you.” And then he had his son, my grandfather’s son, or my uncle who also live in Chicago. So we came here, and I remember that the first place we lived in was a hotel on Halsted and Grand owned by a couple of Japanese people. And basically, there was a little Puerto Rican community at that time over there because I think the people moved there because there was a store called [Sam Wise?] Grocery Store. This is a Jewish 1 �per son. And all Puerto Ricans went to the store to buy arroz con gandule, all the Puerto Rican products, the fruits that we eat. So that was our focus. And [00:02:00] I lived there a number of years until we moved to Racine and Chicago Avenue. And the building doesn’t exist because it was torn to build the Kennedy -- no, the Kennedy Expressway. Oh, whatever it is. It’s one of those expressway that runs the 94. And I went to grammar school. JJ: So this was before the Kennedy was there, the Dan Ryan Kennedy? SA: Yeah. JJ: Now was the Cabrini-Green Housing Project, were they up when you came in? SA: I was a little kid, so I don’t know. I was ten years old. JJ: But you know that there was a Puerto Rican community? SA: There was a Puerto Rican community because I saw it every time we went to the store, and I thought that I knew my way. And then I went to the store and my uncle said, “Go to the store.” I got to the store, when I went home, I couldn’t remember which way to turn, so I ended up on Halsted here, the other [00:03:00] South Side (inaudible) to return. And then I said, “Oh, there’s the house.” And I made it back. But it was a small Puerto Rican community. The other Puerto Rican communities were on Madison and Ashland, around there. I knew about that. And then the one on Clark Street. But I had no contact with those community because like I said, I was a little kid wondering, what is going to be my life in this new country, where people spoke English and all that kind of stuff. JJ: Now, where is Moca in terms of Puerto Rico? Is that (inaudible)? 2 �SA: Moca is a little town on the west part of the island near Aguadilla, which used to be a big Air Force base. I think Air Force or Navy base for United States, not Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico is not a free country, but a colony of [00:04:00] United States, invaded by the US in 1898, where the main city, San Juan, was bombarded. People don’t know that. JJ: What do you mean it was bombarded? SA: They dropped bombs on San Juan. JJ: In 1898? SA: 1898. Yeah. JJ: So where did you go to school? SA: I went to a grammar school, Carpenter School on Racine and Erie. And there, I went to-- they closed that school because they had closed another school. JJ: How was that school? What do you remember? SA: Well, let me explain. First of all, there was a school near Sam Wise store, near there, and it was mostly a Black school. So they, the city, decided to tear that school up and move everybody from that school to Carpenter School. [00:05:00] And Carpenter School was mostly at that moment, as I can recollect, pretty much mixed. But primarily, many Italian immigrants and Polish immigrants went to the school, and we, Puerto Rican were just a tiny minority at that time. Then when that school closed, a number of years later, because it was rebuilt, we were sent to Motley School on Chicago Avenue and Throop. I went to Wells High School. I graduated from there. I was number three. In terms of class standing, I was number three. 3 �JJ: What year was this? You were about? SA: I think it was 1956 or something. I’m not sure. And then from there, I went to a community college on South Side [00:06:00] because my father worked most of his life at the cement company, US Steel, but their cement section in Buffington, Indiana. So he traveled all week, every day from Chicago, taking Route 41, all the way to Indiana. And he worked three shifts. One week, he worked from 8:00 to 12:00, 8:00 to 4:00, then four o’clock to 12:00, and then 12:00 to 7:00 or something like that. I never knew until big what kind of sacrifice he did to help us maintain a steady life, which is very unlike other people that I met who used to work in smaller factories in Chicago. And so I lived a pretty stable life. I didn’t know [00:07:00] extreme poverty. JJ: Now how many siblings? SA: We are five brothers and sister, actually, one sister and four brothers. I’m the oldest one. And when I came here, I was nine years old or eight years old. JJ: They all grew up here too? SA: All of us grew up here. But to us, I don’t know how or why, our culture was very important. So we all speak Spanish. My brothers, following my father’s footsteps, became musicians. My father was a guitar-- great guitar player. And he even built his own guitars in Chicago. There was a program where they showed him building on guitar on Channel 26 when it was a small station. And my brothers play in little [00:08:00] bands, salsa bands. One was La Mafia Band. JJ: What year was this? Do you remember (inaudible)? SA: I think it was like late ’50s. 4 �JJ: Late ’50s? SA: Maybe It was early ’60s. JJ: Early ’60s? SA: Yeah. JJ: So there was a group called La Mafia? SA: La Mafia, yes. They played salsa music. And my smaller brother liked to sing rock and roll song, but you know. JJ: Because actually, there’s several bands during that time they came around. (inaudible) SA: Well, that was a very, very young band. I know about the other salsa bands that were sponsored by (Spanish) [00:08:41]? JJ: (Spanish) [00:08:41]. SA: (Spanish) [00:08:41]. JJ: What about your mom? What did she do? SA: Oh, my mother worked here and there, but most of the time, she was a full-time mother. JJ: Full-time mother? SA: A strong woman. If she saw [00:09:01] someone-- something was wrong, she will fight a man, really. That was my mother. A strong woman who had a sense of what’s right and wrong. And I think I learned this from her because I say, “Why did you become involved parties?” I think it was my mother influence on standing up for what is right no matter what. Although she was not politically involved, but she had that sense. 5 �JJ: What do you mean? (inaudible). SA: Well, she was never involved in any political group. That’s what I mean. She might have voted in regular elections, and that’s it. JJ: But she would just talk to you about that? SA: Not per se. It was her actions. They say actions speak louder than words, but the fact that she stood for what is right had a great influence on [00:10:00] me and I think on my other brothers and sister. We were not religious except one person. My sister was the religious one in the family, went to church every Sunday, who joined the (Spanish) [00:10:18] St. Mary’s Daughters. So she was, you know. JJ: Now, do you know what church she joined? SA: Oh my God. Santa Maria Addolorata. JJ: Addolorata, and where would that -- ? SA: That would be on Ohio Street and near Racine. JJ: Near Racine? SA: Yeah. JJ: By Ogden there and all that intersection? SA: Correct. JJ: There was a (Spanish) [00:10:45] used to be over there. SA: I don’t know about (Spanish) [00:10:49]. JJ: They were kind of connected with the church there. So those are -- ? SA: Not the Catholic Church because we were Catholic, and Casa (Spanish) [00:10:56]. 6 �JJ: (Spanish) [00:10:57] is more Protestant. SA: It’s a Protestant church. [00:11:00] JJ: But at that time, they were a service center or something. They were connected- SA: Oh, maybe there was that thing. JJ: But I don’t know. (inaudible). So Santa? SA: Santa Maria Addolorata. JJ: Addolorata. (Spanish) [00:11:13]? SA: Yeah, (Spanish) [00:11:17] Maria. JJ: Los Caballeros de San Juan? SA: Yes, there was a Los Caballeros de San Juan. In fact, they were pretty active. For some time, they were very active. And a lot of things that happened in Chicago, among the Puerto Rican community’s sense of identity, as a community, came from the fact that there was such a group as the Los Caballeros de San Juan, where people got together, did social things. JJ: What kind of things did they do? SA: We celebrate usually religious holidays together, pray in Spanish, sponsor (Spanish) [00:11:54] de Maria. Sometimes they sponsor trips to different parts of the city. [00:12:00] And at that time, Los Caballeros de San Juan were very much trying, in trying to get the Puerto Ricans involved in political-like action. And that was under Cardinal Stritch. And when he saw this, he didn’t like it. So what he did, disbanded the Los Caballeros de San Juan. JJ: He disbanded them? 7 �SA: Oh, yeah. That’s what I think he did. Well, anyway, the Los Caballeros de San Juan were no longer meeting in churches. They were sort of like floated in and out. But the main leadership, the nuns and the priests were involved in this. He sent them to Panama because the archdiocese here has something in Panama. And that was the way he broke that potential organization. JJ: This was years later? SA: No, during that, about 1956. JJ: 1956? [00:13:00] SA: Around there. Yeah. JJ: So they were like the organization (inaudible)? SA: Yeah. In fact, they did something like the -- we formed a credit union. Caballeros de San Juan Credit Union. JJ: You said “we.” Were you part of this (inaudible)? SA: Well, I mean, as a community. JJ: As a community? SA: Yeah. That way, I was -- JJ: So the community felt connected to the Los Caballeros de San Juan? SA: That’s right. And it lasted to about -- JJ: It’s still there. It’s still here. SA: Well, but you see, it was taken over by Credit Union One because there were problems administering in the Credit Union. We had to have so much money in order to continue being a credit. So it was either that or close so Caballeros 8 �merged with Credit Union one, which is a nationwide credit union. And I’m still a member of that. JJ: So the Los Caballeros de San Juan [00:14:00] organized the (inaudible) de Maria? SA: Yeah. JJ: And so was it the same typical -- was it a? SA: It was a strict religious organization, but with the idea -- JJ: I mean would women have some form of liberation like you were talking about? SA: Well, I don’t think women, at that time, it was liberation to talk about women. Women did what they were expected, to be wives and clean the husband’s dirt in the house, and raise the children, and work outside of the house in order to make ends meet. But there was no question, no liberation theology of feminism at that time. No. Women did what was expected of them. JJ: But they participated in the church? SA: They participate in the church, very actively. Took leadership position in some activities that were done in the church. That’s because Puerto Rican men don’t go to church basically. [00:15:00] It’s mostly women who drag in their children. But they did have an influence. They organized baseball teams. So each church had its own baseball team in the Caballeros de San Juan, and they play against each other. JJ: Were a lot of people involved? 9 �SA: Yeah. I think there was the social active life of Puerto Ricans. But to be involved in Los Caballeros de San Juan or in the activities of Caballeros, like the baseball teams and stuff like that, and later become involved with the credit union. JJ: What do you remember, since this is about you, what do you remember when you were young growing up in that area? SA: Oh, I tell you my thing. I remember the racism that I encountered. We used to live on, like [00:16:00] I said before, on Racine and Chicago Avenue. And we live on a four-floor apartment building. And then behind us was the police station. And I didn’t know what it was. We used to call a spic. Eh, spic. JJ: Did the police say this? SA: The police were the ones who instigated this kind of thing. I don’t think we knew what a spic was, but they found out that that’s what speak was a term referred to Italians before. But since we speak English, like that, so they started calling us spics. And we, watching from our four-floor apartment porch, we saw what was going on in the cells. And I remember beatings that went on in the cells by the police. But one thing that really [00:17:00] got me was that one time, we were in the home and lightning hit the building. And the lightning went from the chimneys of the fourth floor and ended up on the first-floor apartment. But it was such a big mess. Everybody got scared. Everybody grabbed their children running out of the building, and the policemen were just standing there outside of the building, laughing at us. “Look at those Puerto Ricans.” Oh, I hated them. I hated them for that. Making fun of us and laughing. And we lived there until we moved to another place. And I think we moved out because of the possibility that the 10 �building will be torn down. And so the police station would be torn down for the expressway. JJ: Because I don’t recall that part, [00:18:00] so the expressway didn’t exist there. Was there a major road or something in there? SA: No, it was just like, “Tear all these buildings and make this highway.” If you take that highway going to the airport, you will see that it was residential area that was strictly torn down to build the highway. So a lot of people were moved out other homes for that purpose. The school, I don’t think there was much racism at all against Puerto Ricans, because we were a small minority or Mexicans. It was small, like I said it. JJ: And this was Wells? SA: No, this is Carpenter School. JJ: Carpenter School. SA: When we went to Wells High School, later when I graduated -- JJ: But Carpenter Elementary? SA: Yeah. JJ: And so you said there was only a small percentage of -- ? SA: Oh, very small. I remember there were four Latinos, basically Puerto Ricans. JJ: And what were the other populations? SA: Italians, Polish. JJ: Italian, Polish? SA: As I recollect, they were being Irish, but to us, anybody who was blonde, we used to call them Polish. 11 �JJ: So did you see the neighborhood change, or did you move before that? SA: I saw change. I saw a lot of Puerto Ricans moving into the area around this Carpenter School. JJ: Around what time was that about? What year is it? SA: 1958. 1959. JJ: 1958, 1959? SA: Yeah. JJ: So more Puerto Ricans were moving into the area. Were they coming from Puerto Rico or from other areas? SA: I think some of them were moving from Madison to [00:20:00] that area. JJ: From Madison to that area? SA: And perhaps some people were moving already from Clark too, to the area. JJ: So from Clark and Madison? SA: Yeah. I know one thing that there was a huge increase of Puerto Ricans that migrated to what’s called West Town Division Street. I mean, a huge number of Puerto Ricans. JJ: So before that, there weren’t any Puerto Ricans (inaudible)? SA: No, that I recall. JJ: So they (inaudible)? SA: Yeah, I think once the other areas were changed. JJ: So Clark and from Madison? SA: Yeah. There were still many Puerto Ricans coming from Puerto Rico in the ’50s. Some of them came because they were in the US Army during the Korean War. 12 �So when they came out, there’s no jobs in Puerto Rico, so they found ways of surviving in Chicago in the area. JJ: Now, some people came and [00:21:00] went to the country also. But your family came right to the Chicago area? SA: Let me tell you, my father came to the United States. The first place he lived was in Utah because there were the gold mines. So he went to work in the gold mine. JJ: What year was that? SA: 1950, probably. Or 1949. JJ: 1949? (inaudible). SA: So he went to Utah. And then from there -- JJ: And he stayed there a few years working in the gold mines? SA: Yes. Perhaps, he came to work in the tomato fields in the northeastern part of United States, New England area. Then he found work at Utah. And then from Utah, he moved to Chicago to work in the steel mills. JJ: Were there other family here already? SA: Well, there was my uncle and a few [00:22:00] young people at that time who all came basically at the same time to live in Chicago. And some of them ended up in (inaudible) because there was work at the steel mills. Some of them stayed with -- many of them moved back to Chicago, my father being one. My uncle also moved here. Two uncles because I have an uncle from my father’s side that my father sent to him -- he came here when he was eighteen or something like that. Was also a musician. I’m glad my parents were musician because that got us to love our music and our culture. They used to meet in my house and plays 13 �music and dance. So that was very important to us, to our family, conserving our Spanish tradition, Puerto Rican tradition. JJ: So what type of music? SA: [00:23:00] Oh, popular, mostly popular boleros, guarachas. Some country music, but during Christmas time, which is still the tradition to sing those kind of songs during Christmas time. So that was the (inaudible). JJ: So did he sing too? Was he a singer or just play together? SA: Oh, me? JJ: Your father. SA: My father played guitar, and so his brother played first guitar, and they used to sit down and sing. And then my uncle from my mother’s side, he thought he was a great singer, so they used to sing together with my other, his brother, singing popular songs of that era. Augustin Lara was Mexican composer. Rafael Hernández was very popular and favorite. Pedro Flores, El Quarteto Americano, [00:24:00] other the people who played music. So he played like (inaudible) music, some country-western, some country, Puerto Rican music. It was mostly the popular type music that you hear. JJ: So now, to what grade did you go to Carpenter? From what grade to what? SA: I graduated from eighth grade from Carpenter School. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Actually, I graduated from Motley because the last year, they closed Carpenter School to build a new building, to make a new building. (inaudible). So I graduated from Motley, who later became an all-(inaudible) girls school. And they said, “Oh, you went to Motley.” I used to kid and I went to an all-girls’ 14 �school. Then from there, I went to Wells High School. And I [00:25:00] spent four years at the Wells High School. At that time -JJ: Before that, now, you’re growing up in an era where the youth started getting into gangs, gang problems and that. Did you get in any (inaudible)? SA: At that time, there weren’t gangs. JJ: There weren’t any gangs? SA: Gangs came later, after I graduated from eighth grade. JJ: So we’re talking about the ’50s? SA: The late ’50s, yeah. JJ: The late ’50s, there were no Puerto Rican gangs? SA: No Puerto Rican gangs or something. Oh, there was a lot of animosity, though, let me tell you, between the Puerto Rican community and the Italian community on Halsted Street. Now, I know that because there was a building that was set on fire in that area. JJ: By who? SA: People think -- Puerto Rican think it was Italian. Some people think it just was an accident. We never know. But I know that it came out in the newspapers, and they [00:26:00] took this photograph of this young Puerto Rican who went up to save his little radio. And in the process, he fell and got killed. So there was a lot of -- JJ: And they think that the Italians might’ve started the (inaudible)? SA: Yeah, I mean, it’s not. Nobody ever really think. It was just the idea that, perhaps, they did. 15 �JJ: So there was some animosity, though? SA: There was some really animosity. Basically, it was the teenagers because we were competing for the girls. The Puerto Rican guys went after the Italian girls. And you see the result of this. You see in Chicago, lots of marriages between Puerto Ricans and Italian. Many, many. JJ: So this was before there were any Puerto Rican gangs there? SA: No. I think the gangs came -- JJ: Were there Italian gangs? SA: If there were Italian gangs, we didn’t know. I didn’t know. It wasn’t organized. JJ: You [00:27:00] didn’t know anything about gangs? SA: No. JJ: Did you ever join any gangs then, or your brothers or sisters or anybody? SA: I never had the misfortune of joining a gang. No. I was a good kid. JJ: No, that’s good. I’m not saying it’s bad. SA: My mother would have killed us. JJ: Just trying to figure out when the gangs came in. (inaudible). SA: Oh, the gangs came in later. We were not involved. I think some of my brothers and sisters were attacked by gangs. A little gang called Gaylords, which was basically Italian, who had accepted also a number of Mexican kids in their gang. And they went against Puerto Ricans because they said that Puerto Ricans and Blacks were always together. And the Mexicans thought they were white at that time, which is not true. But anyway, this was [00:28:00] the perception. So the 16 �gangs came later. I think it was probably, they started the first year of high school when I was there. But there wasn’t any gang activity. JJ: In the area around Chicago Avenue and in Ashland, I’m saying they began to go -- ? SA: No. Or at Wells High School, either. JJ: But I’m saying they began to go after (inaudible). SA: In fact, I remember my gym teacher -- JJ: Oh, no (inaudible). (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) SA: My gym teacher. JJ: Again, it’s at Wells? SA: He said that Wells High School was very calm because there were no fights between Puerto Ricans and other groups. He said the biggest fights occurred before we Puerto Ricans came to this area, when Italians and Polish had huge riots at Wells High School. He said, I don’t know what people complaining. This campus is calm now. JJ: So they’re saying it was calm because [00:29:00] there were Puerto Ricans there? SA: Well, it was calm because there was no gang activity. JJ: No gang. No gang activity. SA: Nobody was against any other group. Overtly, physically. There might be some comments or something, but no, nothing like that. 17 �JJ: So how was your high school years at Wells? Did you complete all four years there? SA: Like I said, I completed my four years. I was number three, student number three in the standings of the whole school. JJ: So was it just normal or not normal? SA: Well, I was a homebody. I went from school to my house and read and listened to the novellas with my grandfather. Regular soap operas. My father was one of those people who loved soap operas. I think I took that. I think I have it from him. JJ: Actually, they like that in Puerto Rico. Every time I go, there was a lot of people into [00:30:00] soap operas. SA: Oh, yes. So from Chicago. JJ: From Chicago? SA: In Chicago. JJ: In Chicago. (inaudible) Oh, yeah. SA: Gang fights were not that big at all. There was the beginning, like Young Lords versus the Latin Kings and stuff like this. But this was the early years. I don’t think they were really -- JJ: No, but you were studious, right? You were studying at school. Were your brothers and sisters the same way? SA: The only brother that seemed to have some kind of a connection with friends that were not approved by my mother was my two smaller brothers because we were 18 �older than them, and we were almost grownups when we went to high school, and they were small. JJ: [00:31:00] Who were your friends? Were they Puerto Ricans or Americans? SA: Basically, our parents say, “You just visit your cousins, play around with your cousins. No friends in the house.” We live a very close, secure life, protective life, protected life. But I think unfortunately, one of my brothers did get involved with a little bit of a gang issue, but Mexican. He got involved with some use of drugs. JJ: Use of drugs. So it sounds like your mother was running the show or your father? SA: Oh both. It was a team. JJ: What do you mean by that? SA: Oh, they both expect us to do certain things. For example, my mother worked. [00:32:00] I was in charge because I was the oldest one. I had to make sure that dinner was started. I did the beans; my sister did the rice, all that kind of stuff. The meat, my mother did. But every one of us had something to do before my mother got there. We were expected to do homework. That kind of stuff. And so were my cousins. Since I was the oldest of the cousins, I was in charge of them, disciplining them. They all think I’m the oldest brother or something. So we were a very close family, mega family. My aunts, my cousins, we all live in this building. We had the whole fourth floor. JJ: And this was on Chicago Avenue? 19 �SA: Yeah. The whole fourth floor was our family: my aunts, my grandparents, my mother and father. There was no stranger [00:33:00] in that floor except us. The little village of Moca on the fourth floor. Then later on, more Puerto Ricans moving to this building. It was owned by the Wise brothers. The ones who owned that store that I told you. JJ: They owned the building and the store? So was the store there? SA: No, the store was on Milwaukee Avenue. JJ: Oh, so they owned the store and the building? SA: And the building that was just about a couple of blocks away from them. JJ: So they were all family. You don’t remember any other families that were there at that time? SA: Oh, yes, some people who live on the third floor, second floor. Remember I told you about the first floor when the lightning hit? We were friends to those people. And we felt so bad when this poor lady was cooking something. The food was all black with [00:34:00] soot that came down the chimney. There was no damage. But the thing I remember most about that was the fact, we were taught to believe that police were supposed to be respectful. And here they are laughing at us under this crisis saying, “Look at those Puerto Ricans. Ha ha ha ha ha.” I hated that time. The fact they called us spics and then the fact that they laughed. JJ: Were there any incidents, any other incidents that you recall in that neighborhood? Because that was the Gaylord neighborhood then. SA: No, I don’t think the Gaylords were very organized in that immediate community. JJ: Later on, that was their neighborhood gang. 20 �SA: Yeah, I know. JJ: So you’re graduating from Wells? SA: Correct. JJ: And then was you working anywhere at all? SA: Oh, my mother and father said, “You don’t work until you finish school.” JJ: [00:35:00] Well, your father had good income from the steel mill? SA: That’s right. So we never worked. JJ: Now, had your father gone to school? SA: My father went as far as high school, but my mother went in sixth grade. And that was because she was, like I said, she stood up for what she thought was right, and one teacher in Puerto Rico hit her, and she said, she told the teacher, “Wait until you have your own children, then you won’t want to spank me.” And she called her all the kinds of names. So they called my grandfather, and they say, “We don’t want your daughter in school.” There was no student rights, so she was dismissed from returning to school. So she never finished. But she used to read a lot, though. JJ: So now you’re graduating. You’re in Wells; you’re graduating. Where did you go after that? SA: Well, the last year, [00:36:00] my father and mother had moved to the South Side on 61st Street and Stony Island. There was a pretty good size Puerto Rican community there. So we moved to a building there. JJ: 61st Street and Stony Island? 21 �SA: Yeah, it was 63rd and -- Do you don’t remember that big church on the South Side that became the headquarters of the Blackstone Rangers or something? JJ: Right. I remember that. SA: Well, that’s what it -- JJ: That’s where it’s around Blackstone. That street. SA: But there were no Blackstones, because when we moved there, there were no gangs. JJ: No, the street. The street was called Blackstone. SA: No. JJ: Not that (inaudible)? SA: It was 63rd. And I think Woodland. I don’t know the name of it. I don’t recollect. JJ: Actually, the Caballeros de San Juan had their council (inaudible) in that area. SA: That’s right. JJ: Was that the same place. Was that the same church? SA: I think. What was the name of that? [00:37:00] Saint (inaudible) Church? I don’t know what the name was. JJ: I think that’s what it was. Caballeros de San Juan had a strong (inaudible). SA: Well, the Caballeros de San Juan were in many communities. So it was a disaster to the American community when Cardinal Stritch sent the leadership to Panama. JJ: And that was because they were getting out of hand or what were they doing? 22 �SA: Helping the Puerto Rican community, trying to awaken them to the fact of what the political system is and what are the [rights?]. He thought that was, you didn’t do that. You don’t question the city. JJ: They were questioning the city? SA: That’s right. And the laws. JJ: See, I thought that they were more conservative. SA: No, they were not conservative. I’m telling you, because of this radical Catholic group in [00:38:00] the Chicago area that stood for other things besides bridging. They actually went on and tried to help Puerto Ricans manage some of their political -- well, economic problems and difficulties when it came to housing or whatever. When there was a police problem, they came out and tried to help. Because there was already police insensitivities to Puerto Rican community. I don’t think it was police brutality yet. That came later. So we -- JJ: Insensitivity? SA: Insensitivity. Yeah. I mean, the same kind of insensitivity of the police laughing at us, but they never attack us or -- JJ: Verbal. A lot of verbal abuse? SA: That’s right. So then I moved to the South Side the last year. I decided -- JJ: What year was this that you moved, about? I’m just trying to get a -- SA: I think it was [00:39:00] like early ’60s. JJ: Early ’60s? SA: Yeah. JJ: So early ’60s, you were on 63rd Street? 23 �SA: Yeah. For my fourth year of high school. And I used to stay at my mother’s house. JJ: So you went to high school there? What school did you go there? SA: No, I went to Wells High School. But I continue going to Wells High while I live on the South Side on the weekends, because I stay over here with my grandmother and my aunt in front of St. Boniface Church. JJ: Okay. SA: So I traveled back and forth. JJ: Anything that you remember while you were in high school, and what do you remember? SA: Well, I remember fighting with an Italian kid and that really frightened me, because suddenly I realized that I was not fighting to fight and protect. I was fighting to kill somebody. [00:40:00] I remember hitting the kid in the stomach because I knew that was the big effect. Oh my God, I said, “This is it.” And the idea that I could kill somebody took over my life, really. JJ: Why were you so angry? What did he do to make you so angry? SA: We were playing soccer or something. Soccer. When you throw the ball and try to hit each other at the gym. JJ: Dodge ball. SA: Dodge ball. For some reason, he came up to me. That’s how I perceive it. He started fighting. I fought with him, and I remember he was trying to fight a little while. He wasn’t the expert fighter, nor was I, but I was fighting. I was thinking, I’m going hit him in the stomach. [laughs] And I say, “Oh my God, I’m capable of 24 �doing this kind of reasoning.” So I tried to stay away from difficult promise of fighting because suddenly, [00:41:00] so then I realized that I could be -- I was not fighting just to defend myself or to get rid of (inaudible) me. Well, anyway, it was young guys. JJ: You got really angry. You got really angry? SA: I wasn’t angry. That’s the whole thing. I was calculating. JJ: Calculating. SA: And that really frightened me. JJ: But you actually wanted to hurt him? (inaudible)? SA: Yes. I wanted to hit him in the stomach to kill him, because I told that if you hit him in the stomach -- JJ: You were how old? You were already a killer at what age? SA: Fifteen, sixteen? JJ: I’m just kidding. Just kidding. SA: But after that, I never had any encounter, any other fight. JJ: So basically, you didn’t get into a lot of fist fights? SA: No. I eventually kept to myself. I had some Puerto Rican friends, one or two of the other [00:42:00] white kids. JJ: And you said basically, because you were more studious and your family wanted to make sure that you went to school and right back home? SA: Yeah. JJ: Is that what kept you away from the gang? SA: That’s right. And they expected that from my brothers and sisters also. 25 �JJ: Except the younger ones started getting into trouble? SA: Yeah. I think at that time, the older ones were in high school. JJ: And you said also that had to do with that there weren’t that many Puerto Rican gangs that (inaudible). SA: No, there were really -- like I said -- JJ: When you were growing up. So when your younger brothers were growing up, there were gangs? SA: They were gangs. JJ: So that environment, violent? SA: It was beginning to change. JJ: It was beginning to change. Why do you think that was changing at that time? SA: I never really thought about why. I think it was because the number of Puerto Ricans was higher, and that also causes a lot of difficulty, when suddenly you’re not the majority in that area, and [00:43:00] you think that that area is mine by right. So that was it. JJ: So the neighborhood was changing. SA: The neighborhood began to change. JJ: And Puerto Ricans were just saying, “This is my neighborhood now.” And the other -- and I’m putting words (inaudible). SA: No, no, no. I don’t think there was overt saying, “This is my neighborhood.” We don’t want to. It’s just that -- JJ: There was (inaudible)? 26 �SA: It seemed like a natural growth without anybody planning this kind of activity later on. JJ: So there was no urban renewal? It was just natural? Natural change. But that natural change contributed to the gangs? SA: Yeah. JJ: Is that correct, or am I putting words in your mouth? SA: I think it has something to do with it, but I don’t think -- the gang situation at that time wasn’t that strong or open. JJ: So you were not working. [00:44:00] Now, you’re out of high school. And you’re going to college? SA: Yes. I found a job at the post office. JJ: You worked at the post office? What (inaudible)? SA: I was what they call a substitute clerk. JJ: That’s a pretty good job. Did you have any connections to get the job? SA: No. I just took a test and passed it, and you know. (inaudible) They gave me the job. It was like a part-time position to work at night, finishing all the sorting of mail or filling up trucks, whatever. We did everything. That’s what they call it substitute. Whatever they need, we went over there. And we got hours for eleven o’clock, 11:15 to 7:45 in the morning or something like that. Sometimes they only kept us four hours. But if there was too much work, then they asked us to stay until the following morning. JJ: You were still living in that same area, same neighborhood? 27 �SA: [00:45:00] I was living -- at that time, we had moved back to Chicago, North Side of Chicago. JJ: So you went from the South Side back to the -- ? SA: Yeah, we did because -- JJ: Back to Chicago Avenue? SA: Yeah, we did. But let me tell you one of the things that impressed me. When I was going to live on the weekdays in my neighborhood, I did encounter this whole question of racism against the Black community, because I remember a group of white people knocking at the door, our door and say, “Oh, we come here to let you know that the Blacks are moving in.” JJ: This was where? On the South Side or the North Side? SA: The South Side. Jefferson Park. The street was Jefferson. “The Blacks were moving in, and we’re creating a [00:46:00] welcoming reception committee.” That was one way of scaring people that the Blacks were coming in. And I said, “Oh no, we just fine.” We were not thinking of moving. But I remember coming one weekend, because this is the time when leases are due, right. I came in, and suddenly, the whole neighborhood had changed from white to Black. And what happened was the rents went up real high. The services that the buildings were receiving, like yard clean up, the cleaning of the hallways, all that stopped. But the prices went higher for the Blacks. So they were thinking already of urban renewal at least this company, McKey-Poague was the company. I remember that name. McKey-Poague. [00:47:00] JJ: McKey-Poague? 28 �SA: McKey-Poague, P-O-A-G-U-E. It was a big real estate company. They had control of these buildings. I don’t know if they own or whatever, but they were the ones who came out and -- JJ: Isn’t the University of Chicago there or something like that? SA: A little bit farther. JJ: What is it? SA: South. University of Chicago is 59th or something. This is 69th and Jeffrey. They came in when I went there on the weekend because Wells High School, the weekend to spend with my parents. I was shocked. Everybody in the community, except for my family and other two Latino families that stayed there, were all Black. It was overnight, I’m telling you. What is going on here? I didn’t realize what was going on. Then the rents went up. JJ: [00:48:00] And where were the Blacks coming from? Maybe they were being pushed into that area? SA: I think they were coming from University of Chicago. JJ: Oh, so (inaudible). SA: Because at that time, university was expanding. JJ: Expanding. And so the Black community from there was pushed into that area? SA: Right. They were welcomed by McKey-Poague, supposedly. They moved there. JJ: So you said there was some prejudice? What do you mean by that? SA: Well, I thought it was awkward that this neighborhood moved. Since I was in college, I knew something about racial stuff. And I said, “Oh my God.” So the neighborhood changed overnight. They would stay there-- a few months later, 29 �we moved back because the rent was just too high. So we decided to move back to the area on Chicago Avenue and Noble Street, in front of [00:49:00] the swimming pool there, and that’s where we lived until we grew up. JJ: So mostly, the Blacks who lived there was the area where you lived? SA: Chicago Avenue and Noble Street. Eckhart Park. JJ: Eckhart Park. SA: Eckhart Park was right in front of the house, from my house. So we lived there. We got married. My sisters and brothers got married there, and so on. JJ: So that was right in the middle between Clark and Division Street, that area, the Chicago Avenue and Division Street area and stuff? SA: So that area was pretty -- the Puerto Rican community, the Latino community was pretty big by then because we got rentals on Racine, on (inaudible) Street, [00:50:00] and all the streets in between. Throop, Elizabeth, were pretty much Latinized [sic]. JJ: That was like that connection between both those areas. SA: Pretty much that Latino. JJ: And Division Street, that area. SA: I never asked people if they came from Clark Avenue. Just -- JJ: No. You just didn’t know. SA: But that’s where they moved. JJ: People didn’t say it yet, but that’s where they moved into. SA: Right. 30 �JJ: I just only know from the research and stuff. But that community is old. The Noble, Madison Street (inaudible), definitely and older community in Chicago for Puerto Ricans. SA: That’s right. JJ: Also Italian. SA: When we moved there, it was not Puerto Rican. It was a lot of Polish. St. Boniface Church was a Polish church right there. But Santa Maria Addolorata, which is where they had (Spanish) [00:50:53] de Maria, which is on Ohio, near Racine there, that was Italian. [00:51:00] So these two communities for moving out of the city or whatever, moving farther north west. JJ: And the Puerto Ricans were moving in. SA: That’s right. JJ: Created some friction a little bit there. So now you’re in college. What college was that? SA: I went to Southeast Community College. JJ: Where’s that? SA: Oh my God, I think it was South Chicago Street? JJ: Was it South Chicago? SA: Yeah. JJ: So it’s not in Chicago, you said? SA: No, it’s in Chicago. But South Chicago. JJ: Hyde Park? SA: No. Farther. 31 �JJ: Farther, further south? SA: Southeast. JJ: Oh, the Southeast. Towards Hammond and stuff like that? SA: Well, Hammond, no. It was right in Chicago. JJ: 95th Street? SA: Yeah, around there. JJ: Around 95th and Commercial (inaudible)? SA: Commercial. I think the school was in Commercial. JJ: Was that? SA: Commercial? JJ: Actually, there were some Spanish people there. SA: Oh, yeah. [00:52:00] There were some Puerto Ricans living there. JJ: They had Puerto Ricans living there (inaudible). SA: But when I went to that community college, as I can recollect, I was the only Puerto Rican or Latino there. And I don’t remember. It was highly Jewish. JJ: (inaudible) neighborhood. They just didn’t have a lot of Puerto Ricans going to college at that time. SA: Yeah. JJ: Is that correct? Or am I incorrect? SA: Yeah. I don’t think we, very few families thought of their kids going to college at that time. There were a lot of Jewish. That used to be a Jewish community on Jeffrey/Jackson Park area, until the Blacks moved in that area, especially the huge chunk of people who moved. 32 �JJ: The Caballeros de San Juan played in Jackson Park for a while. They used to play softball, I think. SA: Well, yes. Part of the Caballeros de San Juan, like I told you, they organized baseball games and stuff like this. [00:53:00] So I was, as I recollect, I think I was the only Puerto Rican. There were a couple of Mexican American, but they came from the South Chicago area, who went to the community college. And I don’t think people knew Latinos or Puerto Ricans. They thought I was Jewish. What’s a Puerto Rican doing here? So I had friends. My friends there were Jewish and Black. JJ: In the college? SA: Yeah. JJ: And what were you studying at the time? SA: Oh, just the regular first two years of, you know. JJ: Core classes? SA: Yeah. Ended up with an AA degree. JJ: An AA degree? What is that? SA: AA. It’s like a two-year degree you get. JJ: Oh, an associate. [00:54:00] An associate? SA: Associate of Arts. Yeah, that’s what I got. JJ: But what major? What were you majoring in? Basic general? SA: Basic general because I was thinking of law. Actually, political education. I was really interested in political education (inaudible). JJ: What got you interested in political education? 33 �SA: Because I saw some group of people in the area of Ashland and Augusta, the Northwest Community Organization? And when there was that so-called Puerto Rican Riot. JJ: The NCO? SA: That’s right. NCO. I went out at my house, and we talk about it, and they were talking. JJ: So this was 1966? You’re talking about the Puerto Rican Riot of 1966? SA: Yeah. I came across that kind of activity. I got involved with [00:55:00] NCO. JJ: So the riot kind of affected your thinking? SA: Well, I was in the middle of the riot. I was caught in there. JJ: You can describe what riot? SA: I’ll tell you what, it was the most fearsome thing that I -- my brother and I were visiting a friend of ours on Division Street, and then we saw all these group of people coming, and the police. We actually asked the police to escort us out of the area. So I was interested in that kind of politics. JJ: What do you mean that kind of politics? SA: Community organizing, defending your rights, that kind of stuff. Because I have been exposed to the whole question of, to my own readings, to discussion with other people about the lack of rights that Puerto Rico had as a nation. JJ: Was it Wells School or at [00:56:00] the college? SA: No, this was in Wells High School. JJ: So you were in high school. SA: I became interested in that, and I became interested in knowing more about -- 34 �JJ: What year was this? What year? SA: Oh, you always (inaudible). JJ: This was before this riot, though, right? It was before ’66? SA: I was caught in the middle of the riots. JJ: So this was before the riot that you were interested in the politics? SA: Yeah. I was mostly interested in the whole question of Puerto Rican independence because I remember as a kid, in the 1950s, when Albizu Campos got his group of people together, and I was already living in Chicago. And I said, “Oh, wow, Puerto Ricans are fighting for something.” I was impressed by that. And I always admired Pedro Albizu Campo because I saw in him somebody who stood up for what he said was right and was able to put his life. JJ: So you’re talking about the Truman thing in 1953? SA: Yes. Right. JJ: 1953 when (inaudible)? [00:57:00] SA: I was already living in Chicago. Yes. I was living in Chicago, and as a young kid, I remember that. And I got so mad when Channel 7, Flynn, that was the guy who spent fifty years in the station as their main reporter, came out, and then he said, “Nice going, Puerto Ricans.” This is what happened. This is the story that he said, a comment that wasn’t written, “Nice going, Puerto Ricans.” And I was just doubly upset. I couldn’t stand that man ever since I heard him say that. So I was always interested in the question of Puerto Rican -- JJ: About how old were you that time -- about? SA: Perhaps eleven years old. 35 �JJ: So you were already eleven in 1953? SA: Yeah. I remember, and that had a whole impact on me. I don’t know why. JJ: You’re Puerto Rican, I mean, [00:58:00] it was a -- SA: Yeah, but, you know. So there were other many Puerto Ricans, and they were so embarrassed that the Puerto Ricans did that. And I felt proud that Albizu Campos did that. Just the opposite of those people in my community. And then I started reading about political situation in other countries. Later on, when I took history, a lot of history courses in high school, and I used to read about the Soviet Union. I remember a class where I was defending the right of the Soviets to defend their airspace when Eisenhower sent spy planes. And I remember that. I was arguing. I remember saying, “What about if the Russians sent their planes here to spy on United States?” I remember arguing [00:59:00] with the class and the teachers, and there were some visitors. And then they were trying to show (Spanish) [00:59:08] the kind of thing that is going on. I don’t think the visitors were expecting some kid to defend the Soviet Union’s right to shoot down a US plane because it was fighting over their airspace. So for some reason, I have become very much interested in politics. JJ: But this was you, not your father or mother? SA: Oh my God, I hate to say this, but my father always claimed to have been an admirer of Adolph Hitler. I said, “Oh my God, how can you say this?” I don’t know if he was doing it to spite me, but I just could never understand why a hardworking man like him [01:00:00] with a sense of justice, felt that way. My 36 �mother felt that I was a little bit crazy because of these thoughts that came to my mind. I remember when Governor Muñoz came to Chicago. JJ: Muñoz Marin? SA: Yeah, Muñoz Marin. JJ: Luis Muñoz Marin. SA: And I went, came visited the city of Chicago. And I remember going to the places hearing him talk. Anyway, I don’t understand how I became interested in this. I think some people are born with this idea. JJ: When you were in high school, did you join any organization or anything like that? SA: Spanish club, basically [01:01:00] because of culture kind of things. I think I -- JJ: Like social club? SA: We just met socially, to discuss. JJ: Because I know they had a lot of social clubs in the neighborhood. Were you in one of those? SA: No, it was a high school club. JJ: Oh, a high school club. SA: There were the -- JJ: Oh, like at (inaudible) or something like that? SA: (inaudible) didn’t exist yet. JJ: (inaudible). SA: (inaudible) came later, much later. But I did go to some of the groups that already existed, like El Congreso Puerto Rican. I remember going. 37 �JJ: What was that like? El Congreso Puerto Rican, that’s an important part of our history. SA: Well, it was a social club. It was a social club with emphasis on trying to get the different town clubs to come together and form an organization. JJ: So there was town clubs, different social clubs that -- SA: No, each town, might have [01:02:00] its own social club. JJ: In Chicago? SA: Like Moca. (Spanish) [01:02:02]. And then (Spanish) [01:02:11] tried to get all these clubs together. JJ: Puerto Rican Congress was it like (inaudible)? SA: That’s right. That’s what it’s called congress. JJ: An association of all these social clubs that existed within the Puerto Rican community? SA: Correct. So that was the attempt. JJ: Now, they were located at Larrabee and North Avenue in Lincoln Park? SA: I know at one time -- they moved quite a bit. I remember that one time, I had to take the Ogden bus down to North Avenue or something because that’s where -- JJ: That’s where they were located on Ogden and North Avenue? SA: Oh, but I remember going there. JJ: That’s Lincoln Park. SA: Yes. I remember going there. JJ: So you went to those activities. SA: Well, to all of them, but I knew about the thing. 38 �JJ: So what were some of the activities? What did they do? SA: Dominos was a huge way of meeting people. [01:03:00] So I went to the Domino tournaments. I went to the parties. They organized dances for Christmas and celebrations. At that time, I think they were trying to form the idea of having a Puerto Rican parade. JJ: I believe that’s who started the Puerto Rican parade. For them and Council Number Three. SA: Whatever. JJ: San Marcos. SA: But then I noticed one thing. JJ: So the Puerto Rican (inaudible), I believe, was elected there. SA: Oh, was it? I’m not sure. I wasn’t that involved, but I knew about them (inaudible). JJ: But there were activities like that (inaudible)? SA: Yeah. So I went to go there. I went over there. And since my brothers used to play or my -- JJ: So they played there too? SA: Well, just little bands, play anywhere. So whenever they called their services, they were there. So my father and [01:04:00] my uncle usually had some kind of musical group, especially my uncle, used to have trios. He usually ended up playing in all those places. JJ: And Puerto Rican Congress? SA: Puerto Rican didn’t have bars to go to. 39 �JJ: Oh, they didn’t have bars? SA: No. JJ: But they had the social clubs, weren’t they (inaudible)? SA: They had the social club. JJ: (inaudible) clubs and bars. SA: Oh, yeah. Well, they were clubs where they sold soda -- JJ: Beer. SA: Beer and rum. JJ: But they were more family oriented. SA: It was strictly family oriented. JJ: So actually, that was good (inaudible)? SA: It wasn’t like the (Spanish) [01:04:37] in the neighborhood where men, women, usually the prostitutes came around it. No, it was family oriented. And that’s where I came. But going back, I did become -- those were the reasons why I came interested in political situations. Then [01:05:00] after the riot, I saw this group, NCO, trying to organize the -- into some kind of organized group to defend our rights and the rights that we as Puerto Ricans have in this country, according to the Constitution. Now I’m adding this later on, but at that time, I just felt angry because -- and this offered a way of doing (inaudible) in the community. So we ended up doing, helping people with buildings, that was NCO. Going around asking people if they (inaudible) and trying to get the city involved, harassing the neighborhood, that kind of thing. JJ: (inaudible) any building problems in that (inaudible)? 40 �SA: Yeah. JJ: So you would go door to door or something like that? SA: Yeah, we went door to door and knocked on people. JJ: And they were located where? SA: NCO at that time was on Ashland Avenue. JJ: So not too far from where (inaudible) was? SA: I think close to Augusta. [01:06:00] I think they stayed there until they folded out as an organization. So I was interested in that. JJ: What about other groups that you were members of? SA: Well -- JJ: Or did they (inaudible)? SA: It was strictly NCO. JJ: It was strictly NCO? SA: Yeah. And then later, many years after, I was involved in organizing the Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition, which we found. JJ: Before that, when did you -- didn’t you go to jail or something for (inaudible)? SA: That was many years before. JJ: When was that? And what year was that about? SA: Well, I was in junior college. It was the beginning of the Vietnam War. JJ: What year about? SA: 1960s, probably? JJ: Early 1960s? 41 �SA: Early ’50s. I don’t remember. To me, days are not that important. It’s actually, anyway. JJ: (inaudible). SA: But you always come back, “Well, what year?” [01:07:00] It was around the 1960s that I – JJ: You’ve (inaudible) the Vietnam War? SA: Yeah, Vietnam War. JJ: And were you working with any group at that time? Were you a member of any groups? SA: No, it was strictly an individual action that I took. JJ: An individual action? SA: Yeah. JJ: What was the action? SA: I just refused to go to Vietnam when I was drafted. JJ: So you were drafted, and you refused to go, but did someone support you, endorse you? SA: No. Wait a minute, let me -- no. I did it. And then I went out and searched for people who were involved I guess (inaudible) that war in Vietnam. So I came across a little group of college students called CADRE, Chicago Area Draft Resisters. JJ: But hold on, if you can hold on. Chicago Area Draft Resisters, you mean to tell me that without any backup or anything like that -- SA: I made a decision that I was not -- 42 �JJ: You made a decision on your own crazy self -- ? SA: That I was not going to serve United States. JJ: Your own crazy self that you were not going to serve in the United States Army? SA: This is my reasoning. [01:08:00] I don’t want Vietnam to go to what my people have gone through in Puerto Rico when the United States took over. That was my reason. I’m not going to help United States -- JJ: So you got (Spanish) [01:08:10]? SA: Yes. JJ: In your mind? SA: In my mind, I was independent. JJ: You were already just happy that, about the attack on Blair House and Albizu Campos and that. So in your head you (inaudible). SA: I had the feelings towards (inaudible) and independent and that we were a Latino country. JJ: And that Puerto Rico was a nation. SA: That’s right. JJ: So you were already feeling that already? SA: I always felt that. Like I said, since I was eleven years old, whatever. JJ: That’s what I can see. So you weren’t actually that crazy. You already -- SA: I was following my own ideas. Political -- JJ: Your own idealism. SA: Yeah. So then I heard about this group -- JJ: But you went on your own. 43 �SA: I went on my own and then -- JJ: With no backup or anything. And basically, what did you do and then what happened? SA: When they called me, I said, “No.” JJ: And then what happened? SA: Well, [01:09:00] they threatened me, blah, blah, blah. JJ: They sent letters? SA: They said, the process was, they send you a letter. “Welcome. You have been selected to join the US Army. [laughs] Please report on this date.” And I say, “I’m not going to go.” JJ: So you didn’t report, or did you call them? SA: No, I went. I said I’m going to -- JJ: Oh, you went there? SA: I went there, and I said, “No.” When they asked, you said no. Are you sure you know what you did? No. You’re going to end up in prison, blah, blah. No, no, no, no. JJ: Did they arrest you right there? SA: No, they didn’t arrest me there. They just sent me home. And then a couple of weeks later, I got a letter to report to court. But I heard about the CADRE, the Chicago Area Draft Resisters. JJ: So you reported to court. What court? And where did you go? SA: To the federal building in Chicago. JJ: So you reported to the federal court in Chicago? 44 �SA: Right. Because (inaudible). JJ: Were you arrested there? [01:10:00] SA: I spent one day in jail until they did a trial on me. JJ: In one day, or you got bonded out? SA: I went out on my own. JJ: Recognizance? SA: Recognizance. And then I went home. JJ: And then a few weeks later, you went to court? SA: Yeah. Well maybe a couple of months later. A week. JJ: And so you still hadn’t changed your mind? SA: No, I haven’t changed my mind. But let me tell you, I learned about the Chicago Area Draft Resisters. I went for help and we got together. Then I got to meet the American Friends Service Committee. And I said, to please my mother, I tried to get a -- what you call it, conscientious objection, which I knew I was not going to get anyway, because I knew that after reading that for political reasons they wouldn’t give conscientious objection. Basically, it was for religious purposes. But I went anyway to please my mother, appease her. But no. JJ: Because your mother didn’t want you to go to jail? SA: No. I think no. My mother never. [01:11:00] JJ: She basically said, “This is (inaudible).” SA: And my father didn’t want me to go either. JJ: And you had never been in any trouble before? 45 �SA: Never. So I went, and I got to meet Chicago Area Draft Resisters, and then I began to participate in many activities. JJ: This was before you went to court? SA: Yeah. Against the war. And I met some great people who were involved in all kinds of social -- activities for change. The anti-war people I met at the -- JJ: Were there any other Puerto Ricans in Chicago that had refused to go? SA: As far as I know, I was the first one, and I came out on the picture. JJ: (inaudible). SA: Let me see. They took a picture of me when I went to a community hearing to declare my -- reported it at an organization. I don’t remember the organization, if it was NCO or what. [01:12:00] That little mag, Black Jet, came to this thing and they took my picture. JJ: And that was it? That (inaudible)? SA: Black Jet. JJ: So you came out in Black Jet? (inaudible). SA: So when I went to prison, “Oh, here’s the guy that was in the -- ” JJ: So you went to prison via the Black Jet? SA: Some (inaudible) Black guy has a copy of the Jet magazine where my picture is there, and I’m pointing out to the statistics of Latinos versus -- JJ: So you went to federal prison then? SA: Yeah. Because refusing to be drafted is a federal offense. So you had to go to a federal offender (inaudible). I was sent out to Southern Illinois. Let me see. Oh 46 �my God. Sometimes I erase from my mind back in my place. I went to the prison. JJ: Marion is in -- SA: Marion, [01:13:00] thank you. I went to Marion. They put me in the trustee prison. I forgot what they call those people. JJ: Trustee. Because it was the first time (inaudible). SA: Right. And then I was surprised to have seen so many -- all the people who have refused to draft before religious people. JJ: How much time where you given? How much sentence? SA: I was sentenced three years. JJ: Three years? So how many months did you do on three years? SA: I spent two years. JJ: (inaudible). SA: And then the last year was on recognizance. JJ: Like on parole. SA: Right. On parole as in probation. So I was probation one year. JJ: So now you are going to jail for the very first time in your life, and you never did anything. SA: I did one thing. JJ: How did you feel? SA: I thought I was going to be put wearing those stripe things like you see in the movies. This is how naive I was. That I had a chain with a big ball dragging. 47 �[01:14:00] It wasn’t that at all. Then they put me for a couple of weeks in isolation to acclimatize me to the rules of the prison. JJ: But by that time, you’ve gotten some support from this Chicago Area Draft Resisters? SA: Yeah. JJ: So when you felt a little at least you had somebody there (inaudible)? SA: They came out to my trial. JJ: So that gave you a little bit morale or something like that? SA: Yeah. And there was support from people from AFSC, American Friends Service Committee. One of the ministers came and visited me and all that kind of stuff. JJ: And at that time -- SA: In fact, Greg-- the committee -- Gregory, Dick Gregory. JJ: Dick Gregory. SA: Came to my house and talked to my mother and father about what a great thing I have done. It feels (inaudible) to go in. Dick Gregory went to my house. [01:15:00] I didn’t even know that until I came out of prison that he had talked to my mother and to my father. JJ: Because that was way before the Young Lords started as a political group and we were a gang at that time. SA: Really? When Dick Gregory -- JJ: Right, because later on, we started in ’68, in September of ’68, and that was way before that. But we did hear about you at that time. (inaudible). 48 �SA: Well, like I said, I was in the newspaper, whatever it was, in a Black magazine, Black Jet. I didn’t know I was making such an impact. And this is where LADO came in. JJ: And LADO is how we heard about you (inaudible). SA: Well, because I was -- JJ: Because we started working with Latin American Defense Organization. SA: I started working with LADO and the whole question of peace. JJ: What happened? While you’re in jail, what are you doing? Are you reading? SA: I’m reading, basically, poetry, writing stuff, [01:16:00] putting songs together. JJ: Were you into poetry? Is that why you were reading poetry or just (inaudible)? SA: I loved poetry all the time. Even when I was going to community college and when I was going to Roosevelt University, the idea of reading poetry always fascinated me. Reading Spanish stories and Spanish books and all that (Spanish) [01:16:23]. All that thing always attracted, culture. JJ: So you came out of jail. Did you have any -- I mean, you’re in jail. I know it’s a federal penitentiary, it’s not a state prison. And those are supposed to be a little bit more easier they say than the state prison. SA: Well, yes. JJ: Did you have a hard time? SA: No, I never had any hard time. I had some -- JJ: Challenges. SA: Big challenges. I think it was basically to see how far I would stand for myself. JJ: People do that in jail. 49 �SA: Yeah. I know a group of people try to [01:17:00] make me have sex with them. When I said, “No, you better kill me.” And they just back away. And then I practice some psychology recently, say “You do this.” (inaudible) this guy believe in basically, “You do this, you kill me, but I won’t let you sleep or leave you in peace because I’ll haunt you for the rest of your life.” And he was terrified. He let me alone. Then everybody -- JJ: But usually there’s other Puerto Ricans there too? SA: No, there weren’t many. No. JJ: In federal, yeah. They don’t send them to federal yet. SA: No. Puerto Ricans were not -- JJ: It’s a luxury. So they don’t send -- SA: Puerto Ricans were not there. The only large group of people who were not criminals were the Jehovah Witnesses because they refused to go into the -- JJ: So you had some other people that refused also? SA: Yeah, there were a lot of them. JJ: A lot of them? SA: Jehovah Witnesses, large numbers of them, [01:18:00] thirty to forty or more who refused to go because it was against their religion because they all claim to be ministers, and they felt that since they were ministers, they should get an exemption. JJ: Did you make friends with them? SA: Oh, yeah. I made some friends. I think they felt that, “Why don’t you join us?” JJ: They’re saying (inaudible). 50 �SA: Yeah, they thought I was true to my word. And they felt this is the kind of people we need in Jehovah Witnesses. They wanted me to join their group. JJ: How did your mom and dad feel that when you were in there? SA: Oh, they came to visit me. Even my father who was against the whole idea came to visit with (inaudible). JJ: Because they were proud, no, that you were taking an action? SA: My mother supported me, my father, but I don’t think they were proud. They thought I was crazy. Let me tell you. When I said [01:19:00] that I had said no, I remember my mother going to an tirade. She took all the books and threw it on the floor. “This is what books have done to you. They made you crazy.” Then she threw all the books and she said, “I want to burn them. I want to burn them.” That was my mother screaming. Upset what I had done. JJ: You never did give your mom and dad’s name. SA: Oh, my father’s name is Domingo [Aviles?] Aviles, and my mother’s name is (Spanish) [01:19:32]. JJ: Sorry about that. SA: My father was born in Moca, but a little barrio called (Spanish) [01:19:44] at that time. JJ: And your mom was from Moca also? SA: Yeah, she’s from the central part of Moca. JJ: Now, did you get a lot of visitors or a lot of letters or anything like that? SA: I got -- JJ: From your family? 51 �SA: My mother and father were the only ones who [01:20:00] showed up. I don’t even know if my sister visited. JJ: And then did you get letters from strangers or that (inaudible) supported (inaudible)? SA: Not many, but some friend wrote me all the time just because we had a crush on each other. And she was actively politically involved with American Friends Service Committee. And she went out with a group of people, burned the draft board, and then they said -- JJ: Can you explain? I heard about that. SA: And they said they took all the files. JJ: What was her name? SA: Linda Quint. JJ: Right. I heard that name, Linda. SA: Linda Quint. JJ: So she was the one that burned down the -- ? SA: She and a couple of Catholic prison nuns and some people went at night. You see, they had no security there. Right now, they would have been killed. They went in there and took out all the files out because she knew that my files were there and that (inaudible) service was (inaudible). JJ: So you actually were writing to her. She was your girlfriend at that time? [01:21:00] SA: Huh? JJ: She was your girlfriend at that time? You were writing her, or just a friend? 52 �SA: No, she just visited me. JJ: But she knew that your file was in there? SA: Probably, so. Anyway, so they went to that service board, took out all the files, made a bonfire in the yard, and then they stood around singing songs, and the police came and arrested them. JJ: But I heard they threw red paint or something like that, or to make it look like blood or something, or no? SA: I don’t know if they did. JJ: They just had a bonfire? SA: The only thing I know they burned the things. Then afterwards, they (inaudible), they didn’t stick around and get arrested. So some of them went to Canada, including my friend Linda. She went to Canada. JJ: She’s still alive? Did you see her? SA: I think she’s still alive, but I never heard from her after that. Never communicated with each other. JJ: But she had been visiting you when (inaudible)? SA: Oh, [01:22:00] she visited me with other people from AFSC. And there was a Reverend [Horton?], who came out and made it a point to visit all conscientious objection and people who objected to the war. JJ: Now, were you a member already of American Friends, or that came later? SA: No, I was already involved with American, not as a member, in their activities. JJ: In their activities. 53 �SA: I never joined formally the American Friends Service Committee, but I knew they were -- JJ: You were working with AFSC? SA: I knew them and respected them. Because they were the group that defied United States and took medical supplies to Vietnam at the threat of being fired upon by US Naval. They went that far. So I say this group has a history of defending what they considered right, because they were very much involved in the anti-slavery struggle. [01:23:00] So I knew that they were serious about what they thought was right and fighting for that, not just praying, but actually doing stuff. And I was not a member, but I did go there and used to get material translated into Spanish and pass them out. But I was not a member. There weren’t many Puerto Ricans there. JJ: In the jail in Marion? SA: No. No Puerto Ricans in Marion. Or many Puerto Ricans involved in the antiwar movement in Chicago. Yes. JJ: But you were the first draft resister. SA: That’s right. Like I said, I became, well-known in Chicago and in the Black community. But even Dick Gregory came to my house and visited my mother and father. I think Obed Lopez [Zacarias] had a lot to do with that when he came to my (inaudible). JJ: [01:24:00] Now, so you come out, at what year did you come out of the jail? SA: Oh my God. About 1985 or 1986. 54 �JJ: 1986? That was later. No. No, I mean that you came out of the jail for the drafts. I think it was in the ’60s. Well, I remember -- SA: No, it was ’64 when I graduated from college, Roosevelt. So I was in the 1960s that I came out of prison. JJ: That’s what I mean. It was the ’60s. SA: Not the ’80s. Did I say ’80s? Oh, please. No, no, that was the ’60s. It was 1960. I think it was 1965 or 1966. JJ: 1966? SA: Yes. JJ: Because you came out and you were in the riot. The riot came later, right? SA: Well, there were two riots. JJ: What’s the first riot? SA: [01:25:00] The first one is when I first was there as a young kid, and I asked the policeman to escort me out of this dangerous place on Division Street. Then the second one, I was -- JJ: Because I know there was a riot in North Avenue, but maybe (inaudible). SA: North Avenue? No. JJ: At St. Michaels. SA: No, I wasn’t aware of that. JJ: So there was another one in Division Street before that? SA: Yeah, 1966. Well, I think they approached me when they heard that I refuse induction. JJ: Is this Obed Lopez from -- ? 55 �SA: Obed Lopez from Latin American Development. JJ: Latin American Defense Organization? SA: Latin American Defense Organization. JJ: So they approached you, and did they go to see you in jail? SA: Oh, yes. We want to support you. They say yes. So we got together. JJ: They visited you in jail? SA: No, before that. Before I went to jail, they came out. And I became a [01:26:00] member of LADO supporting the whole idea of trying to develop a bigger conscience of the war in the Puerto Rican community. We used information from the American Friends Service Committee, so I used to go there to get ideas for leaflets. We used to print a newspaper. [Nuestro Pueblo?], I think it was, and I used to write for them. And from there, I used to visit other places in Chicago that dealt with the whole question of Latinos involving social service advocacy and civil rights issues. And Obed saw me there, he approached me and said, “Yes, I’ll work with your organization.” Voluntarily. Because people think you used the word work is that you’re paid. Actually, volunteers pay for volunteering. [01:27:00] That’s my experience. They don’t pay us what we pay to volunteer and work for those organizations. But anyway, so we did a lot of marches against the welfare department that did not want to have people who speak Spanish in the offices and things like that. And Obed, of course, used to get his head cracked once in a while by the police when they invaded social offices that dealt with welfare. And there was a group of women primarily who were involved in that organization. So that’s how, and then we worked together in that issue 56 �and other issues afterwards, after I came out of prison. I continued involvement with LADO, Latin American Defense Organization. JJ: You never went to jail after that or anything like that? SA: I went to jail once, but that was [01:28:00] when I was a member of the Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition. I told you that was a group that grew out of NCO. We felt that we needed an organization strictly Puerto Rico or Latin American. And Peter Earl was an organizer for NCO, and Tyson to come and help us organize Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition. Reverend Morales was an active member of the NCO. We attracted him, and we formed the Coalición Accion Latina. JJ: How was that kind structured? SA: Well, we structured that as a membership organization of other organizations. So I came there representing (Spanish) [01:28:46], and other people came representing other organizations in the Puerto Rican Latino community. [01:29:00] So it was a membership organization made up of members of different organizations. JJ: But not the organization, just members from each organization? SA: Yeah. But we did a lot of action as members of the coalition. JJ: So I understand they used the model of Saul Alinsky type of organization? SA: Well, yes. The people that we attracted were Saul Alinsky people, individuals who worked for NCO. JJ: So NCO was a Saul Alinsky type of -- ? SA: Yes, it was. 57 �JJ: And so you attracted those people into the Westtown Coalition, Concerned Citizens Coalition? SA: Correct. It was -- got funding to continue this organization. JJ: Now, they were pretty active for a number of years. Even after the ’60s, Young Lords, they were pretty active. SA: Yeah. Well, basically -- JJ: Did you know about the Young Lords at the time at all? SA: I knew about the Young Lords as soon as I got out of prison. JJ: [01:30:00] How did you learn about them? SA: Well, I read about you guys. JJ: In the jail or out here? SA: It was outside. It was pretty hard to get information because there was a lot of censorship of material that we could get. I knew about the Young Lords. JJ: So how did you feel about that group? SA: They were nationalists. JJ: (inaudible). SA: Yeah, I related them. JJ: (inaudible) from Puerto Rico. SA: And I was working for volunteering, and I didn’t even want to say working -- JJ: So how did you feel? SA: (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible) somebody else (inaudible)? 58 �SA: And then we felt, oh my God, we wish that the Latin Kings could do the same thing. And we opened a lot of offices for the Latin Kings. And soon, we found out that that was not going to work. JJ: [01:31:00] What do you mean? SA: I mean, we opened up things so they could get there and use the space, and then suddenly, we discovered they were sneaking in drugs. And one time, somebody overdosed, they had to take the person outside of the building to the back door. And we said, “This is not going to work.” So we separated it. JJ: So they didn’t stop their gang activity, or did they try? Were they trying? SA: I think they meant well, but I don’t think they really have an idea of really doing what the Young Lords were trying to do. They just talk about it. And we believed. JJ: You believed them? SA: Yeah. And we soon gave that idea up because it didn’t work. They were interested in other things. JJ: So you’re with the Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition, and you’re working with the (inaudible) Cultural Center? SA: Ah-huh. JJ: And can you explain who they are? SA: [01:32:00] Well -- JJ: And how you got involved. SA: Well, I got involved because I was working for Aspira after I got out of prison as a educational counselor and club organizer. 59 �JJ: Now, you got paid for Aspira, though, did you? SA: No, Aspira was a paid job. And as Aspirante organizer, I went to different high schools throughout the city of Chicago, basically Gage High School? JJ: And the purpose was what? SA: Organize clubs to get people interested in education, getting a high school diploma and going on to college, and bringing in some of the cultural things that seemed to be so important in terms of Puerto Ricans, because there was no real attempt to educate us or ourselves on our [01:33:00] own history. We heard things like in the schools, Puerto Ricans have no history. I remember one person was working, who worked for one of the organizations, I don’t want to mention the name because it’s the husband of somebody who was a leader in one of those. And he argued with me. The Puerto Ricans had no history. And I didn’t even say, “You mean no history? Even a rock has a history.” And I felt that Puerto Ricans needed to know something about themselves in order to feel good about yourself, you have to know something about yourself because if all you hear that you’re just gang members, you’re here because you are too lazy to work. You come from the island to get welfare. That kind of lies. (inaudible) some of us actually believe that. They tell you something, you tend to believe that is true. [01:34:00] But then the people I saw around me, there were some people who live in welfare. But most Puerto Ricans had a job. A few of them did not, that’s true. But that doesn’t make the whole Puerto Rican community a welfare-dependent community. So we talk about those things, and we had cultural events at the schools in which we celebrated Puerto Rican days. In fact, 60 �one time, I went as far as pushing -- not pushing, but convincing our students to join a takeover of North Avenue Beach. It was a takeover, Puerto Rican takeover of North Avenue Beach. JJ: When was this? About when? SA: I think that was around early ’70s. JJ: Early ’70s? SA: Yeah. JJ: And why would they want it? I thought that was already a Puerto Rican area. North Avenue Beach. SA: Well, I don’t know. [01:35:00] But people went there. But we were going to claim North Avenue Beach a -- JJ: A Puerto Rican beach? SA: A piece of Puerto Rico. JJ: A piece of Puerto Rico? SA: So we went and convinced our students to get together, and we brought flags, and we rode in a U-Haul van. And we went over there, and we put the flags, “Lovely Puerto Rico,” blah, blah, blah. And then the FBI actually came out and was trying to find out why we were taking over the beach. It wasn’t like occupied Chicago now in this space, but it was something similar. JJ: What do you mean the FBI came out? How did you know that they were FBI? SA: Because they identified themselves. “Why were you doing this in the beach?” JJ: Were there a lot of people that came? 61 �SA: A lot of people were there because people who used the beaches. The students were very [01:36:00] happy and having a great time. JJ: You were in the Humboldt Park community. Why didn’t you go to Humboldt Park? SA: Because the students were not from Humboldt Park. This was a student from Gage Park High School. And this is what they related, North Avenue Beach, so that’s why we took over North Avenue Beach. JJ: Actually, there were Puerto Ricans going at that time to North Avenue Beach? SA: Yeah. JJ: A few. SA: From different parts of the city. JJ: But it used to be an Italian and Polish and German beach before that. When the Young Lords were gang, we remember us taking it over, but we didn’t do it that way. (inaudible) but there’s another. SA: We have fun here. JJ: So it was a good event and everybody came and (inaudible)? SA: Yeah. (inaudible). JJ: You were under surveillance? SA: Yeah, we were. JJ: One of the things that Westtown -- was it Westtown Concerned Citizens at all [01:37:00] involved in that -- ? 62 �SA: Well, we developed a housing organization called [CHECK?], a guy named [Bash Smith?], which later, this CHECK later developed into LUCHA, Latin United for whatever, something, which is still a housing organization that exists now. JJ: So what are some of the issues that you -- ? SA: We work on employment. I mean we did a whole bunch of marches and taking over lobbies of different post offices because we wanted the place opened to more Latino workers in the different post offices. Of course, a lot of educational stuff we did, including battles against principals who were racist and had a clear anti-Puerto Rican [01:38:00] agenda in the school. So we fought with that. In fact, Reverend Morales got arrested and beat up in one of those schools. JJ: Reverend Morales, Reverend Jose Morales? SA: Yeah, Reverend Morales. He was a great activist at that time. Jobs, I think for the post office. Education, primarily, issues. And housing were the three issues that we -- JJ: You also did police abuse also? No? SA: Well -- JJ: Not a lot? SA: I don’t think we dealt with that much. JJ: So jobs, housing, and education? SA: Yeah. Those were the three main areas of Westtown Concerned Citizen. JJ: Now, did you join any other organizations at that time while in the -- ? SA: Well, later on, [01:39:00] I became member -- not actually become a member of the PSP, but I was one of the travelers. 63 �JJ: What was PSP? SA: Huh? JJ: What’s PSP? SA: What do you mean? JJ: What did it stand for (inaudible)? SA: Puerto Rican Socialist Party. Puerto Rican Independent Socialist Party, something like that. I don’t know. JJ: (inaudible)? SA: PSP, Puerto Rican Socialist -- JJ: In Puerto Rico and it was here also? SA: Yeah, right. So I belonged to them. JJ: And that actually (inaudible)? SA: We did some marches. JJ: (inaudible) Movimiento Pro-Independencia in Puerto Rico? SA: It was here, became the Movimiento Pro-Independencia. But then later, they became -- JJ: The PSP? SA: PSP. But on the MPI, Movimiento Pro-Independencia, we participated in lot of political forums with other organizations. Some of these were left organizations from United States. JJ: Well, I remember the Young Lords were learning a lot from the Movimiento ProIndependencia in Puerto Rico. [01:40:00] (inaudible) started, that’s all we heard. So they were here. (inaudible). 64 �SA: We were bringing Mari Brás, all those people here to Chicago. JJ: They were pretty activists, pretty good activists. SA: And we participated also with coalitions in the area of education. We organized the people’s -- JJ: And this came later? SA: It was -- what is that? JJ: (inaudible)? SA: People part of the Puerto Rican Parade? Contingent. That’s the word we used. The Puerto Rican -- the Socialist Party Contingent of the (Spanish) [01:40:37] of the contingent of the Puerto Rican -- JJ: Puerto Rican Parade? SA: Parade. We marched with them. We had a lot of forums. We even visited churches. I remember (inaudible). (inaudible) was very active in that organization. Later became active in (inaudible). She wanted to address a group here, [01:41:00] Amigos de la Justicia Social, Friends of Social Justice. And it was a Protestant church. And when she said that, all the group of the (inaudible), said, “Amen.” And I said, “Oh my God.” This is when we were working against Plan 21. JJ: Plan 21, a lot of people, they’re hiding that. They don’t want to admit that, City Hall doesn’t want to admit that there was a Plan 21. But everywhere you go, people know that that existed. (inaudible). SA: Plan 21 was the Mayor Daley’s -- I think it was the old Mayor Daley. JJ: The old Mayor Daley? 65 �SA: The idea of separating or getting poor people out of the center of the city. Some of the plans were to make Milwaukee Avenue like a boulevard, with trees in the middle, blah, blah, blah, blah. Close that street for buses and move poor people away from the [01:42:00] center city, away from the -- where the El-lines. JJ: Subway (inaudible). SA: Yeah, the subways. Because it was an easy way to get downtown. And the idea was, “Let’s bring all these people who left the city back to Chicago and build the economic base for a new city for the 21st century.” JJ: So the people that went to the white flight, the white flight to the suburbs, they wanted to bring them back into the city? SA: That’s right. In order to build a strong economic base for the city. JJ: So that was (inaudible). SA: And bring all those people back here and build up a new community. JJ: Did they actually put this in their publicity? SA: Yes, there is that book. I used to have this book. I don’t know who might have it, but I bet there must be in some kind of archives, Plan 21. JJ: So you were fighting them (inaudible) lawsuit? SA: We’re fighting. We even joined other groups and sued the city. JJ: Tell [01:43:00] me about that. About the lawsuit that you did. SA: Well, we stopped for a moment the continuation of that plan. But the plan continued to evolve. And look, you see, this is the 21st century. What’s happened to the Puerto Rican and poor communities that lived in the areas of 66 �Milwaukee Avenue. The area is close to downtown. They’re well developed with condominiums and stuff like this. JJ: So even though there was a court ruling, they still continued? SA: They continued. They (inaudible), they continued. And it has built up to what the city is now, really. JJ: Because it’s expanded to the lakefront? SA: Gentrification. I think we call it now gentrification of Plan 21. But gentrification means removal of the Cabrini-Green homes. They have been removed. Removal of the other public housing in State Street. [01:44:00] They have been removed. And all those areas that were burned after the Martin Luther King murder, those areas have not been developed until now. They’re beginning to be developed into condominiums. Not for working class people, but for people who have wealth, or at least now the working poor. So that plan has been successful by the city of Chicago. JJ: And what were some of the neighborhoods that were destroyed there? SA: Wicker Park, Puerto Rican. JJ: Was primary Puerto Rican? SA: Bucktown. JJ: Bucktown was primary Puerto Rican? SA: Yeah. JJ: It was destroyed? SA: It’s beginning now in what we call Division Street. JJ: Humboldt Park. 67 �SA: Division Street, Humboldt Park. Just look down on the Ashland and -- JJ: What I [01:45:00] heard from -- SA: Ashland and Madison. JJ: Noble and Chicago Avenue. What about that area? SA: Well, that area was taken in consideration, but NCO had a settling plan because they built those co-ops. And we still have many Puerto Ricans and many primarily now African-American people living there. They didn’t turn out to be a white lily. JJ: So that area, there was (inaudible) some organizing then? SA: But now, some of the houses have become condominiums or mansions. JJ: Well, Cabrini-Green housing in -- SA: Cabrini-Green is completely gone now. JJ: So that was also right around here? SA: That was also plan of the 21. JJ: Chicago Plan 21. SA: To take all these poor people, move them out into the city, move them out of the city and bring the other people. JJ: And when you went to the Puerto Rican Congress, how does that area look? Lincoln Park? SA: That area, to me, they look -- [01:46:00] it wasn’t that Puerto Rican. At that time, it was pretty white. JJ: At that time? 68 �SA: Yeah. In fact, they move out almost like a year later from the area and came back to the Puerto Rican community in Humboldt Park, Westtown. JJ: Oh, yeah, those people got pushed out from that area, but it used to be Puerto Rican (inaudible). SA: But I remember that when I knew that they were going to be moving to Ogden, I found it strange because I didn’t see too many Puerto Rican life there. JJ: Because Ogden came from -- the Puerto Rican Congress was in Ogden in a sense. SA: They were not there that long. Many years. They move out almost immediately, about two years after they organized it. And I think they moved to North Avenue because -- JJ: It spread to North Avenue West. SA: Because that’s where the Puerto Rican Congress built the building. JJ: You’re talking about the Puerto Rican Congress? SA: Yeah. JJ: [01:47:00] They weren’t there that long. SA: Yeah. JJ: They started later. SA: That became actually Caribe Ruiz’s domain. JJ: (inaudible). SA: Who did a good thing in terms of the bands. JJ: Yeah, there was a big movement of the bands at that time (inaudible). SA: That’s right. The salsa bands. 69 �JJ: The Mafia, you said. Your group. (inaudible) SA: No, no, my brothers were not involved. JJ: They were earlier. SA: The bands were actually salsa band. They were not like conjuntos, which is different. They’re not band. They’re a group of people who play guitar, blah, blah, blah, blah, that kind of music. But the salsa bands were -- the salsa bands were trumpets, wind instruments, and percussion. The other group is Puerto Rican, like popular music, but the emphasis was on guitar playing and singing. [01:48:00] Okay, not salsa for dancing. I mean, not that the people didn’t dance the other thing. But it was not like a salsa craze that later developed into what people consider Puerto Rican. Although it’s not strictly Puerto Rican. It also has Cuban influences, but developed in New York City, among most Puerto Ricans who had a great part in developing that music. It’s in bands. JJ: (inaudible). SA: I could come here to talk until twelve o’clock. JJ: No, that’s fine. (inaudible). What are you doing more or less because you’ve been involved with Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center, and so what are you doing now? What are you doing today? SA: Well -- JJ: And this was back in the ’60s. SA: That’s right. When I continue working [01:49:00] Ruiz Belvis for years, because to me, culture was very important because it’s the roots of an identity that people live in order to feel strong and defend their personality and defend their 70 �idiosyncrasy as a Puerto Rican community. So I continue working along with Ruiz Belvis, which I’m still a board member now. And I had gone from president to secretary, treasurer to janitor. All the time, janitor, because we always -- the people who organize these groups and work for them had to keep the place clean because lack of funding. So I continue being that -- now I’m just a board member. JJ: Where are they located now? SA: They’re located now on a building that we acquired about four or five years ago near Pulaski and Armitage. JJ: Pulaski and Armitage. And so they’re involved in what? What are some of the groups that [01:50:00] play here (inaudible)? SA: Well, right now, we have changed a little bit of our agenda. We don’t do much bomba and plena because we felt that everybody’s doing bomba and plena now. But when we started that, many Puerto Rican community people felt that that was no Puerto Rican music. That was African music. And we are not African. We’re not Blacks, the idea. So this is not Puerto, this is African music, the bomba and plena. Now, all the -- JJ: Puerto Ricans are three races though, right? SA: Well, we are a mixed group of people. Spanish and other European because there were a lot of Italians who moved to Puerto Rico. French was the second language of Puerto Rico until 1898. Not English -- French. Italians and other people. You look at Puerto Rican’s last name. [01:51:00] There’s some Dutch names; there’s some German names. The Oppenheimers for example, how is 71 �that Puerto Rican? And Irish. A lot of Irish went to Puerto Rico. And then of course, Africans, origin people. And the Italian Indians were not all killed by the Spanish, as history tried to teach us. Actually, what happened is that the Puerto Rican Taínos moved to the central part of the island, and then they married Spanish, and they became the (Spanish) [01:51:40], really. So that’s why we still have like eighty percent of our county genes are Taíno. And the thing is, maybe if they were killed, it was basically the men because the hard work, the mines and stuff. But the women, [01:52:00] they just went to any part of the city, any part of the island, became Puerto Ricans. And now you still can see a lot of fragments of facial features that are Taíno. But they live in the central part of the island. And of course -JJ: Is this part of the (inaudible) do this history also? SA: We do the history, the classes on Spanish and history. But right now we’re doing a lot of events in the schools in which we’re bringing the whole salsa -- not the whole salsa, the question of African-oriented Puerto Rican music into the schools, with young kids. That’s our main focus now. (Spanish) [01:52:47] which was ours for many, many, many years, as all organizations, got into troubles, internal issues, they sort of like split. And that [01:53:00] one group, some of them continue to work with us, but some of them, they felt that would betray them. Those kinds of things just happen to many groups and organizations, especially cultural groups. They say cultural groups don’t last too long. And people were amazed that we were able to keep this group for twenty-five years or something like that. So I’m still involved in that. Now we do the celebration of 72 �the freedom of slavery in Puerto Rico, which is very important. People don’t know about the history of that in Puerto Rico. Even teachers, I was surprised one time I mentioned this. I was doing group (inaudible) came to the center. We discussed about the history, and one said, “Why do you have so many people here?” And I said, “No, there was no slaves in Puerto Rico.” He said, “What are you talking about?” [01:54:00] That’s why we celebrate the birth of Ruiz Belvis because we have Puerto Rican -- he was responsible for freeing the AfricanPuerto Ricans and other Caribbean Puerto Ricans from slavery. And she said, “Ah.” She went like that. She couldn’t believe that there were Puerto Ricans who were slaves. And this was a bilingual teacher. And I said, “What is this woman teaching Puerto Rican kids?” So we celebrate the freedom of AfricanPuerto Rican people by the Spanish in April, 1872. So we still have that program going on. But we bought a building, and it came [01:55:00] very difficult to rehab it because now with this situation, where are you going to get mortgages? Where are you going to get loans to fix a building? So we’re going through some difficulty, financial. And of course, with the opposition of where we were, we had to sell our building because one day, we woke up, there was no Puerto Rican community there. JJ: So you were in Wicker Park? SA: That’s right. There was no Puerto Rican community there. JJ: So you had this displaced. (inaudible) organization. SA: So we had to find another place. JJ: And you had been there for how many years before you got this place? 73 �SA: Thirty years. JJ: Thirty years? And then you got this place? SA: Yeah. So we continue working that, trying to get the members involved also in social issues. This is a new group of people who have no idea of the struggles that we went trying to get an organization like Ruiz Belvis. [01:56:00] They think Ruiz Belvis might be just singing thing. It’s not considered by many new people as a cornerstone of Puerto Rican identity and defense. And that’s what we used to involve ourselves in housing problem, work problem. Now they say, “Oh, we do this. You lose your 501(c)3.” I said, “Oh my God.” But anyway, most of our people are grown old. JJ: This is (inaudible) the new board? SA: This is the new young people who are interested. They’re slowly developing the sense of -- but it’s difficult. JJ: Anything you think that we need to add to close? Any message that you think we should tell our community? SA: We have to continue to fight for our identity and defend those things that make us who we are. A Puerto Rican nation closely tied to Latin America. [01:57:00] Many people think that we’re not Latin Americans, you know. And unfortunately, people in Latin America think that we are just Americans. They think that we have it so easy here because we are American citizens. And I just want to say, it doesn’t make a difference if you are a citizen or not. Just look at the AfricanAmericans. They’re citizens. What have they acquired? What they have acquired is going to struggle. What the Americans here have done is to struggle. 74 �A group -- people that doesn’t struggle for what they think is just is bound to die. And I don’t want our community to be considered one of those groups that came here and died up or disappeared within the mainstream of the United States. I think this is not a melting pot. This country is actually -- some people like to say a salad, different groups of people together, [01:58:00] but with their own idiosyncrasies, their own roots and their own ideas of who they are. And we also feel that as Puerto Ricans, we need to join the struggles of other organizations or group of people like us who are fighting for justice, who are fighting for freedom, who are fighting for a better life for their children and for themselves and their community. And this is what African Americans have done. This is what American Indians have done. This is what other groups in the United States have done, including the Irish, and other groups that were Americanized at one time or another. I hope we don’t fall into the trap that because we’ve been here so many years, that we feel we’re better than other groups that are just coming in and treat them as bad as we have been treated. So I believe in freedom, justice. I believe definitely, [01:59:00] you have to struggle to get what you want because nobody’s going to give it to us. We have to fight the enemies that don’t believe in those traits of justice, equality, and freedom. Then we lost. We have to join those people, be part of them as they’re part of us in our struggles. The building that we acquired, we didn’t have the money. And it was a Jewish couple who had more money than we do, who gave us close to $60,000 to buy this building. No strings attached. They were going to lend it to us. Then they said, “Just keep it. We’re moving out of Chicago anyway.” They ended up moving to 75 �San Francisco, but they gave us the money, and that’s how we acquired the building. I mean, besides all the contributions in the community. But the majority of the money that we got to buy this building, the Segundo Ruiz Belvis Center [02:00:00] was from other groups who play an important part in our development as an organization and developing our consciousness in terms of we’re people, just like everybody else. Every people has their own culture. Every people has their own idiosyncrasy. We have to accept them the way they are, but learn to live together. JJ: Now, were you able to get any grants at all? SA: We have received grants, but grants usually for our groups are very small. It’s usually the big established organization that get much of the money. So defend what you got and fight for it. That’s what I say. And not oppress others because you’re different and they’re different. JJ: What other organizations [02:01:00] did you become members of? SA: I had become a member of various organizations. Even when I went to Puerto Rico, I founded an organization in Puerto Rico, for (inaudible) I lived and then I moved to Chicago. Another group that I had a lot of influence in me, besides the Puerto Rican Independence Group, was the Communist Party of United States. The reason being that they seem to have fought for the kind of issues that we, Puerto Ricans are interested in—social justice, equality, the end of racism, opportunities for everyone, living together no matter what race you are. We’re working together because we are all workers. And as workers, we deserve to be respected. Because who creates the richness in this country? It’s the people 76 �who work years to build the factories, to build the roads, [02:02:00] to build everything that we have become used to. Who are the ones who invent the idea of social services? It was the communist party with the party members or people like them who struggled for an eight-hour day, who struggled for benefits, from the units like Medicare, who struggled for social security when there was none in this country. It was people like them who talk about workers having rights to defend and organize in order to defend your right or else, they’ll be at the mercy of the owners of the corporations and capitalists. And who formed or was right in this country. Who formed the richness of this country? It’s the working people. So I think -- and that’s why I became a member later of the communist party. JJ: So you felt it important because they work for the [02:03:00] working people, you’re saying, the working men? (inaudible) SA: Right. Yeah. And they were -- JJ: They’re kind of outcasts in the United States, of course, because they’re -- SA: Well, because at one time, they were influential. JJ: (inaudible). SA: The structure of the government made a point to destroy them because they became afraid of what the communists were doing, organizing the working class, getting the AFL-CIO all together. And they forced the unions to kick all communists out. And then anybody who wanted to say something, and if they wanted to punish these people that accused them of being a communist. And the McCarthy era, a lot of people who had nothing to do with communism were destroyed because they couldn’t find jobs. Some of them committed suicide, or 77 �else they changed their names. And especially people who work in the movie industry, who has stories to tell [02:04:00] so they could not get jobs. And this kind of tradition continues. It’s not as much as before, but many people still are afraid that the communists are the devils. JJ: (inaudible) the image that is (inaudible). SA: And you know they work for -- JJ: But actually, they’re in many countries. SA: Oh, yes. It’s a worldwide. JJ: It’s worldwide. SA: Worldwide. They understand their -- JJ: Especially in this country, it is a free speech country that people should not have to worry about that. SA: Well, it’s free when it’s free. But when they decide to shut us up, they would do the (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible)? (inaudible). SA: That here where organizations were infiltrated, where members were putting traps so they could be considered criminals and arrested them. So it’s freedom until [02:05:00] they think that we’re stepping on their toes and then they want to shut us up. And we always have to be aware of that and be careful and not be shut by them because of fear. JJ: And that’s one of the reasons you also joined that organization? SA: Yeah. JJ: Okay, just to (inaudible). 78 �SA: And I saw a lot of people who were in prison, who died in prison, who were punished in prison, like Winston. He was blinded in prison because he was accused of being a communist, and the prison wanted to oppose -- JJ: Who was it? Winston. SA: Henry Winston. JJ: Henry Winston. SA: Yeah. JJ: So he was blinded in the (inaudible)? SA: He lost his eyesight. JJ: He lost his eyesight? SA: Yeah. The people now, from Puerto Rico are there. Oscar Lopez, and people like that who have been terribly -- JJ: Oscar Lopez is a member of the? SA: So-called FLNA. JJ: FLNA? SA: Yeah. JJ: And he’s been in jail for over thirty years? SA: That’s right. JJ: And basically, [02:06:00] there’s no proof that he has done anything except stand up for Puerto Rico, I guess. SA: Yeah. JJ: He believes in that. SA: But he was -- 79 �JJ: He was in his truck. SA: He’s also considered enemy because he had a lot of influence with groups like NCO. He was an organizer for NCO. JJ: Oh. SA: Northwest Community Organization. JJ: He was a paid staff? SA: Yeah, he was paid organizer for NCO. JJ: For the Northwest Community Organization? SA: Correct. Saul Alinsky organization. JJ: Saul Alinsky organization? So I wasn’t aware of that, that he was a member of that. I know that he did something at the University of Illinois. He was in a student group there, I believe. SA: Well, he was not a student there, but he helped organize the student group, (Spanish) [02:06:48], which was basically an organization planning to have Latinos receive scholarships to open the doors so that more Latinos [02:07:00] will enter the University of Illinois. (inaudible) campus at that time, not just the University of Illinois. JJ: (inaudible). SA: So I continued working with them. JJ: (inaudible). SA: I marched for jobs, I marched for -- I take petitions for laws that had to deal with social security, unemployment. We do things, demonstration against abuses of organizations and people. But now, we’re involving occupied US Chicago with 80 �people who are like us and working for getting benefits, recognized in fighting against those people and organizations that try to take all benefits that have been won by struggle, like minimum wage, like social security, like unemployment insurance, you go on and on and on and on. Scholarship for students, [02:08:00] saying that students should not be abused by the loans that they receive. And they had to spend many, many years in debt to get an education for a position. And now what do you see now? Many college students cannot find jobs either, but they’re in debt, thousands and thousands of dollars because the kind of legislation that made possible for banks to get hold of those funds and offer loans to students that they cannot pay for. JJ: Anything else we need to put in there? SA: I think I said it before. We have to stick together. If we want just justice, we got to fight together. Recognize who’s the enemy, and be wise to know who’s your friend and who’s not your friend. [02:09:00] And not be afraid of doing things that you know need to be done because people say it’s dangerous for you. I think if you only think of yourself, nothing’s ever going to change. We have to think for everyone. So that’s why I’m a communist now. Oh my God. He’s always been a communist. Yeah. END OF VIDEO FILE 81 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f91d65c345b36cc8c35e88a72a362124.mp4 90727487e5b06408d1b0a449ee631845 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Sijisfredo Avilés vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Sijisfredo Avilés es el primer Puertorriqueño en Chicago que públicamente opongo el recluto para la guerra de Vietnam en los 1960s. Silenciamiento sirvió 3 años en la cárcel por rechazar inducción en 1968 y mas tarde se hizo mimbré del parte comunista en USA. Nacido en Puerto rico, La familia de Avilés so movió a Chicago en los 1950s, estabilizándose en Chicago Avenue y Noble Avenue, que esta oeste de Ogden Avenue y el centro. Señor Avilés a soportado los pobres, los Latino auto determinados y los derechos humanos. Avilés ha sido un miembro de Latín American Defense Organization (LADO), el Puerto Rican Socialist Party of Chicago (PSP), y el Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center en Chicago. Todos estos grupos han trabajado juntos con los Young Lords. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Guerra de Vietnam, 1961-1975--Insumisos--Estados Unidos Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Aviles_Sijisfredo Title A name given to the resource Sijisfredo Avilés video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Avilés, Sijisfredo Description An account of the resource Sijisfredo Avilés is the first Puerto Rican in Chicago to publicly oppose the Vietnam War draft during the middle 1960s. He quietly served three years in jail for refusing induction in 1968. Born in Puerto Rico, Mr. Avilés’ family moved to Chicago in the early 1950s, settling around Chicago Avenue and Noble Avenue, just west of Ogden Avenue and downtown. Mr. Avilés has been a lifelong advocate for the poor, Latino self-determination, and human rights and worked closely with the Young Lords. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Draft resisters--United States Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/621d6f0738d7f8ead3df51abfbe8ada1.pdf 3bc9b0b01c0be93c6ea337f66c2c64da PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Vicente “Panama” Alba Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/18/2012 Biography and Description English Vicente “Panama” Alba is a Young Lord who was born in Panama, immigrated to New York City in 1961, and now lives in Puerto Rico. He worked many years as an organizer with Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) of the AFL/CIO, advocating for immigrant and undocumented workers in the solid waste and recycling industry. During the Attica Rebellion, September 9, 1971, he supported the inmates in their negotiations. Mr. Alba has been involved in two takeovers of the Statue of Liberty, first supporting the occupation and the planting of the Puerto Rican flag on the Statue as part of a campaign to free the Puerto Rican Nationalist prisoners and the second in support of the struggle of the people of Vieques. A fervent admirer of Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Mr. Alba continues to advocate for self- determination for Puerto Rico and has been involved with the Nationalists and other parties, including several community organizing campaigns to free political prisoners, including Oscar López. Spanish Vicente “Panamá” Alba es un Young Lord quien nació en Panamá, migro a la ciudad de Nueva York en 1961 y ahora vive en Puerto Rico. El a trabajado por muchos años con la organización Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) de AFL/CIO, quien defiende los trabajadores inmigrantes y los indocumentaditos en los �industriosas de recicla y las eliminación de los desechos. Durante la rebelión de Attica, (Septiembre 9, 1971) Señor Alba soportó reclusos en sus negaciones. Señor Alaba ha sido parte de dos tomadas de la Estatua de Libertad, la primera es plantando la bandera de Puerto Rico en la Estatua en parte de una campaña para libertar los Nacionalistas Puertorriqueños que fueron encarcelados y el segundo fue en soportar la lucha de la gente de Vieques. Un ferviente admirador de Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Señor Alba continua abogar por autodeterminación por Puerto Rico y a sido parte de los Nacionalistas y otros grupos, incluyendo unas organizaciones en la comunidad que hacen campañas para libertar los prisioneros de política, uno siendo Oscar López. �Transcript JJ: Okay, so Panama, if you can tell me when you arrived here, what was that like? VA: Okay, I didn’t arrive here. I arrived in New York, and in New York I arrived at the age of 10, with my sister and my mother. My father was already in New York. But I came -- I went to the United States with a lot of dreams about what I thought the United States was. You know, the dream that they’re selling you when you’re in Latin America, that the United States is the land of equality and democracy, the home of the free, and all of those myths. And I came as a little kid. And reality set in very rapidly. I was not wanted in my neighborhood. The neighborhood was overwhelmingly Irish [00:01:00] Italian. We were not wanted there. I didn’t speak English. And I was not welcomed. The color of my skin wasn’t welcomed. My features weren’t welcomed. The fact that I spoke Spanish wasn’t welcomed. I mean, even though there were a lot of Irish and Italian immigrants, but I was a different type of immigrant. I was an immigrant of color. When I went to public school, I was sent back. I was sent back to start the fifth grade over again. And while education in Panama was not as supposedly advanced as the United States, I knew the subject matter, I just did not know the language. And because of it, I was put in a class for the mentally challenged, [00:02:00] like I was emotionally disturbed, or, you know, which -- there may be a lot of problems, that was not one of them, you know? They had it set up in the school system where people that were challenged and needed help, not help with the language, but help like psychological help. And most of the class was 1 �like that, but I was not that. My reason for being in that class was that I didn’t speak English. Um, racism became, you know, a very new and ugly experience [00:03:00] in New York. My neighborhood was a neighborhood in transition. I was the second, third, Latino family in the whole block. There was a Spanish grocery store across the street, but one Black family at the end. And then there was the public housing projects, you know? The neighborhood, as such, was in transition, and I guess that was part of the resentment that white folks had in seeing us come into the neighborhood. I had a couple very ugly experiences. My first girlfriend, because one of the things that I did was very soon after I got there, you know, the whole [00:04:00] (inaudible) invasion and everything, and I started letting my hair grow out, like it was something that I felt I had [ingo?] hair. And I didn’t like cutting it, you know, the way it was used to be worn the hair back there, very, you know, military looking like. And my first girlfriend was an Irish girl named [Susan Duffy?]. And because I started going out with her, one day, I went to see her, and there was a gang of white boys waiting for me, and they almost beat me to death, calling me and calling her all kinds of ugly names for being with me. But they didn’t touch her, but they -- I mean, I fought, fought, and I was saved. I mean, I’m alive because a Black bus driver saw what was happening. He drove his bus and opened the door, and I fell into the bus, and he took off, you know? Um, there were [00:05:00] -- the neighborhood was segregated. You know, just north of where I lived, it was an area where, you know, the St. Lawrence train station, it was an area where a white gang ran, the Young Crusaders. I’ll never forget that. There were Italians and, you know, like, elder 2 �people of color were not really allowed to walk out of the train station and walk a couple of blocks to the housing project, the Monroe houses and Bronx [rail?] houses. But I mean, young kids couldn’t walk the streets [during the day?], you know, in that neighborhood. You got caught there, you were done. Um, I dropped out of school when I went and tried to get a job in construction, and my next-door neighbor, [00:06:00] who was Sicilian, [Mr. Giambrone?] very nice family, you know, they didn’t have that prejudice that the American whites had, something that, you know, I guess the family inherited later on, but he offered to take me to his jobs, to get me a job. He knew they were looking for people. And, you know, construction was paying good. I walked into the construction site, and all these white guys surrounded me, it was like, “What the fuck are you doing here?” “Mr. Giambrone invited me to the job.” The guy told me, he says, “None of your kind work for me. Get the fuck out of here.” They were laughing, you know? And you gotta -- it was not even about if I was capable of working, could handle the jobs, none of that. It was I was a person of color. And they didn’t tolerate that at their job sites. You know, [00:07:00] down the road, that led to a whole industry in New York of coalitions that fought for jobs or Blacks and Latinos in construction. But life was segregated. I didn’t see that in my country. I didn’t know that, you know, that experience, and it was very traumatizing for me. So, by the age of 14, I had gotten into drugs, and I found haven in drugs. And I think that it was kind of eased getting into the drugs because of the youth culture. You know, it was the Beatles and smoking weed and dropping acid and so, you know, all of the myths that they talked about drugs, you know, it was like, 3 �it's all bullshit, you know? You don’t get hooked on marijuana. I didn’t know that you did get hooked on heroin. So, eventually, that happened very rapidly with me. But it was a very ugly scene, you know? And it was, I think, perhaps, an even bigger shock [00:08:00] coming from outside the United States and believing all the hype outside that they tell people that the United States is, you know. And in a lot of ways, my salvation, in a sense, was the Puerto Rican community. And we need to really understand what that was, because in New York, they might have been, I don’t know, 8,000 Panamanians, or less, maybe 10,000 Dominicans or 15,000 Cubans, and at that time, there were literally 1 million Puerto Ricans in the city of New York. So, Puerto Ricans defined what being Latino was. [00:09:00] It was a community that me and my friends, you know, the ones that spoke Spanish, but it for me was very confusing, because I got the nickname Panama right away, because, they asked me, you know, “Where you from?” “Panama.” And Panama stuck. But I will say that, you know, I’m very proud I’m Panamanian. And when I would ask my friends, (Spanish) [00:09:25], you know, what are you? They would say, “I’m Americano,” but they couldn’t convince me, they couldn’t convince themselves, because, you know, of the dilemma of -- and then I began to really understand that my peers, my contemporaries, were young Puerto Ricans, and mainly the sons and daughters of Puerto Ricans that had recently arrived in [00:10:00] the United States, that mass wave that I later on, learned was Operation Bootstrap. And as I began to learn about the history of Puerto Rico, you know, and I learned about the (Spanish) [00:10:15], and the Nationalist uprising of 1950, and the myth of the 4 �citizenship, it must have been even more confusing for young people coming from Puerto Rico or from Puerto Rican parents, because Puerto Rican parents had lived through the repression that the Puerto Rican people had faced on the island and been told that they were Americans, and brought to the United States with the promises of gold in the streets, and, you know, only to face that as Latinos, we weren’t wanted, you know? As mestizo people, we were not wanted here. You were a citizen, but you were a [00:11:00] citizen for the purposes of going to war, but not for the purposes of being treated and welcomed and treated equally, or anything like that. And it was a very interesting time, because very rapidly, you know, [every time?] you’re challenging orthodoxies, everything that was talked about was supposed to be, was questioned, and it was questioned by a large sector of my generation. And it was confusing, because on the one hand, we were beginning to develop a sense of absolute optimism about, yeah, we could change the world. You know, the antiwar movement, the war, you know, all the myths that were said about Vietnam, [00:12:00] you know, and exposing the lies about Vietnam. And it gave people a sense of, you know what, we could really change the world. At the same time that for me, personally, like for many young people in my generation, drugs had become a haven. An emotional haven. And, you know, it had, at least among ourselves, it had lost the stigma attached to it. You know, it wasn’t bad to get high. Everybody got high. So, much so that by 1970 in the Bronx, in the South Bronx, specifically, it was estimated that 15 percent of the overall population was addicted to drugs. Now think about 15 percent of the population [00:13:00] in terms of a population that 5 �includes the newborn baby all the way to the little old lady or the little old man that’s just about to pass on, 15 percent of the whole population, and it was concentrated in that pre-teen, teenage, young adult sector of that population where there was massive addiction, and the drug that was pouring into our community, the drug that we were consuming primarily, was heroin. We didn’t bring it in, but it was there for us to consume. And those are issues that later on, you know, I began to really look at, but at the time, it was just the way it was. Um -JJ: Wait a minute. VA: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so [00:14:00] how did you get from the heroin to the political? VA: Well, what happened was that -- I think it’s important to point that the political was something very tangible. You could feel it. You could breathe it. You could taste it. People talked about it. I mean, you know, and it wasn’t so much around Puerto Rico, but that would come soon. I was struggling because I was so impressed by the Black Panthers, you know, the daring to tell the truth and to stand up to that and fight for that to pay the consequences whatever they were. And that’s when I saw, in Christmas 1969, the Young Lords on TV. [00:15:00] The Young Lords had taken over a church in El Barrio, East Harlem. And I mean, I don’t even know how to say what the feeling was like. But it was -- to me, it was like we arrived. We are here now. Now we are a part of all of this is going on, worldwide, to change the way the world is. That was the feeling. But I was on drugs. I remember that. I remember watching the news and seeing this. 6 �And that created a conflict then, because it was for me the first real hope, you know? Now there’s a place for me, you know? I mean, I guess the primary racial aspect of me is Indigenous, it’s [00:16:00] not African. You know, you don’t see my Africanness. And so although there were other Puerto Ricans in the Black Panther Party, but you know what I’m saying, it was not ours. And actually, it was a young man, a Dominican young man who loaned me the biography of Pedro Albizu Campos, you know, and I was still in that stage and, you know, and trying to make sense. And I read where Don Pedro Albizu Campos traveled throughout Latin America, looking for volunteers, recruiting volunteers for the Puerto Rican revolution. And while [00:17:00] I didn’t quite understand yet why there were so many Puerto Ricans in New York, to me, it was a call to me. This guy’s looking for me, you know? And I began to learn about Puerto Rican colonialism. And it, to me, was a very logical link between colonialism and the way we were treated as people. And I had an experience that, you know, police were very abusive. And in New York, there was a unit of the police department called the TPF, Tactical Police Force. This was the riot squads. And they had been set up because of all the social upheaval in the communities. And they traveled, you know, to Harlem when there was a riot. I mean, they were sent around the city. But when there were no riots, what they used to do was basically invade a community. And one summer day, they came into my block, and they dropped all the kids on the block, took us kids from both sides of the rock, grabbed everybody. [00:18:00] We were hanging out. Too us into a backyard. And I never forget this big Irish guy, the guy was a yahoo. He 7 �was like a mountain man. He had me by the collar and he was whipping the crap out of me with a rubber hose. They used to carry two things very openly, which were rubber hoses and blackjacks, blackjack being a lead ball wrapped in leather. And rubber hose, and they used to use that, learned this later on, the rubber hose, because they could whip you, and because the hose is round, it doesn’t leave the welts, the marks. It’ll bust you up inside. But eventually the mark goes away, even though you’re busted up. And this guy was whipping the shit out of me and calling me a fucking dirty Puerto Rican. I’ll never forget this. And I’m new to this. I still don’t understand why this is happening. So, I say, “Officer, Officer, I’m not Puerto Rican, Panamanian.” [00:19:00] He says, “I don’t give a fuck what kind of Puerto Rican you are.” And kept hitting me, and I said to myself, “Well motherfucker, I am Puerto Rican now.” If that’s what it is, it was what it is. Because they couldn’t -- you know, in their ignorance, racist ignorance, they have no conception. Much later, to this day, they look at a Latino, all Latinos are Mexicans. They don’t understand what south of the border is, or the countries south, you know, Ecuador, or Bolivia, or Argentina, or Chile, or Honduras, Nicaragua, no, no. If you look like a spic, you’re Mexican. You know, they had to deport Puerto Ricans, you know, out of the United States, because they thought they were Mexicans, in this late age, you know? But going back to that, that was the experience. And it took me about eight months [00:20:00] to terms with making the decision that you could not be about what I wanted to be about and be a dope fiend. And by coincidence, my decision to stop using drugs coincided with the second takeover by the Young Lords of 8 �Lincoln Hospital. And that takeover was specifically to establish a drug abuse problem, program, in Lincoln Hospital, understanding that Lincoln Hospital was an institution that was built in the 1800s to receive slaves coming from the South, and this was the only hospital that served the people the South Bronx. It was a disaster. And people referred to it as the butcher shop. So, I started kicking dope, [00:21:00] withdrawing from heroin the day of that takeover, and I joined that effort through a sister friend of mine, Cleo Silvers, who was a Panther and was transitioning to work with the Lords. JJ: So, how did you handle the detox? VA: I quit cold turkey. JJ: Okay, where? In the hospital? VA: Yo, working. Working in the Lincoln Hospital during the day and the night going to a -- we had a mess hall. The Puerto Rican Student Union had a mess hall on Brown Bridge, and I slept there. And then I moved from there, you know. But those first four or five days were hell. And I dealt with them by being totally involved in the detox, working and building that while -- and going through the doubts of, you know, I don’t think I could last the day. I think I want to walk out of here and just go get high one more time. You know? It was the constant, one more time. [00:22:00] You know, it was a challenge that I had placed upon myself, to see how -- whether the revolution meant something to me or not. And I wanted to be a part of changing the world and so ultimately, that won out. You know, I never shot dope up after that day, and never. In fact, let me just say this, that summer, I went to Orchard Beach and ran into some of the fellas, and the 9 �first guy that I ran into told me, “Panama, come on, man, let’s go get high. I got some dope. Let’s go get high.” And my -- and I think about this in retrospect, because my reaction was, I punched him in the mouth, you know? And it was like a safety valve, you know what I’m saying? Nobody else is gonna tell Panama let’s go get high, because he’s capable of punching somebody in the fucking face, you know? [00:23:00] And it was a way of me defending myself from the doubt that I had that maybe I would, I think. I never did, though. JJ: So, what you’re saying is that now you’re changing your belief system, or the way you’re looking at the world, and that contributed to your detox. VA: I mean, I think that the thing that was easier then than now is that a movement and social change was tangible. You could feel it. It was happening. Look, the people of Vietnam took on the mightiest empire in the world, and they were kicking their ass. No matter what the newspaper said, you knew that they were kicking their ass because, you know, the United States could not win. A people without the weaponry and the might [00:24:00] and the planes and the, you know. I mean, they were fighting M-16s with bamboo sticks at one point, you know? And eventually they persevered. And that is very inspirational. To say, you know, if you really determined to do something, you can, you will. And then when I joined -- there was one other thing that helped me tremendously was that before I got, or just about the time that I was getting into drugs, for a brief period of time, I also joined martial arts. I used to go on Saturdays to a dojo and take up jiujitsu. And I had a sensei, Mr. V, he was a Filipino. The guy was like 90 pounds wet, you know, [00:25:00] but he went away to Thailand, if I remember 10 �correctly, and came back with a series of pictures, you know, of a sequence of him breaking a block of ice. And I was the wisest little ass, you know, I’m 13 years old, 14 years old, whatever. And I saw the pictures, and I told him, I said, “That’s what I want to learn how to do.” Not this bullshit, this [cop outs?], fighting the air and all this is like you’re saying to me, course it didn’t make sense, then. He asked me, he said, “So, you want to break a block of ice. What do you aim for?” And you know, in my infinite wisdom, I told him, “That’s a dumb question. I aim for the block of ice.” And he said, “Well, that’s why you will never break one.” I said, “What? What were you aiming for?” He said, “For the other side.” [00:26:00] And you know, I was too wise for that to make any kind of sense to me. But when I was kicking that dope habit, I started thinking about that. He had said to me that the ice was an obstacle to get to where he wanted to put his fist. And that was an attitude. That’s a state of mind that you have to get into and it’s about -- it’s not about jiujitsu. So, it’s about living. It’s about life. It’s about the challenges of life and your goals for life. And going back to it, thinking about it, I don’t know why that came to mind. I remember when I was kicking a dope habit, I said, “This is just that. The block of ice is in the way of my fist here, you know what I’m saying? This addiction, this pain, it’s in the way, and I got to get through it to the other side. The other side is being free of drugs.” You know, you can’t [00:27:00] talk about freedom and be a slave to a substance. And so at the age of 19, I leave drugs and joined the movement. I was very rapidly recruited to the Young Lords. The Young Lords, I think -- and I’m talking to the founder of the Young Lords, okay, but I think that you need to understand what he meant to us 11 �and why I think it was so successful when it was successful. You know, it was a response from our community to the reality we were living. And it was not a pretty reality. It was not nice. And see, the class of people, it’s not enough to say Puerto Ricans. Yes, Puerto Ricans, but Puerto Ricans were [00:28:00] poor Puerto Ricans, it was working Puerto Ricans, people that were not the owners or in power. And that’s a certain class of people. And these are people that were in the United States because they came from that same class of people. You know, there are Puerto Ricans that are three, four generations on the island, but they were more privileged. They did not get affected in the same way by, you know, the hurricanes and the Depression, the way the Depression impacted Puerto Rico, and the machinations that were made in Puerto Rico to steal people’s, you know, land and uproot them and change the economy and leave them outside [00:29:00] impoverished and homeless and hungry, you know, and then provide them with a promised land, you know, a ticket to the United States and a job in a factory making shit money, you know? But that was better than what was here. But what was here was created in order to uproot Puerto Ricans and take what belonged to Puerto Ricans. And so the movement that the Young Lords initiates in the United States, a movement that arises not out of intellectuals, it arises out of desire to fight for something better. And we were heavily influenced by what was happening in the United States. We were influenced, you know, a lot -- at the beginning, it was not so much about [00:30:00] (Spanish) Puerto Rico. It was what was happening around us in the United States. It was the Black Panther Party, the Civil Rights movement, the 12 �Black Power movement, you know, and then begin to realize in other parts of the United States, it’s the Chicanos, Mexicanos, the Brown Berets, and the American Indian Movement, and in the Asian communities, you got the Red Guard, and you got [Awakun?], and the people are on the move, you know, and doing the best that they can to obl-- and we’re not coming from pretty places. We’re coming from gangs, coming from drugs, coming from poor working families, you know, and I don’t think we need to make any apologies for that. You know, the young people that made up the Young Lords in New York, [00:31:00] the leadership was primarily first-generation college students. Nobody else in their family had been to college. Many had -- their parents had not graduated from high school. But you know, I mean, I’ll give you an example. In the City of New York, there was a free university system. CUNY was free. But it kept us out, because we were not educated to go to college. And when the movement for social justice begins to take hold, young people start fighting for the right to have access to higher education. So, now it’s time to implement tuition. So, [00:32:00] you can’t -- you know, you open admissions and, you know, we want to maintain free tuition -- and the tuition now is keeping our kids out of school. You know, now there’s a privilege once again. There’s not so much Black and white or Brown and white or yellow and white or red and white, it’s now rich or not rich, you know? But I mean, those are the processes. And I mean, like in some instances, you also have to recognize some of the doors that we opened, like for education. It got people into positions where now they don’t want to struggle, they’re too comfortable. There’s a group of our community who has 13 �made it, or they think they have made it, and so they are privileged within our community. [00:33:00] That wasn’t so much a reality back then. You know, it was an overwhelmingly very poor community and a very devastated community. And, you know, people talk about the drug epidemic that hit our community. They don’t talk about the alcohol epidemic that was very acceptable. You know, the alcoholism that was just rampant, not just in the Puerto Rican or Black community, but in the white community. And the drug epidemic was not acknowledged until it hit the white community. while it was ravaging our communities, it was something that, you know, let them die, and you know, the ones that go to jail, go to jail, and the ones that kill each other, kill each other, and let’s just pretend it’s not happening. And you know it was -- I don’t think -- I think it makes a lot of sense that my political work started out fighting against the [00:34:00] drug epidemic, you know, with this program we established at Lincoln Hospital. The program itself was recognized by the United Nations for its success. However, the City of New York still shut us down. The contradiction, right? We were the most successful drug program in New York, but they shut us out because they don’t have control of it. JJ: And the way they used acupuncture, also, is that -- VA: Yeah, we read in a journal that an acupuncturist in Thailand was treating a person for respiratory problems, and in stimulating the lung point of the ear, he had accidentally discovered [00:35:00] that this person was also an opium addict, and that he relieved the withdrawal symptoms from some opium. And we went down to Chinatown, we bought some [yin charts?], and we bought needles, and 14 �we started practicing with each other, trying to figure out, where’s the lung point? That’s how the acupuncture started. You know, it was the time when Richard Nixon was opening up the issues with China, because, you know, capitalism, buying new markets and resources are real product and all that. So, um, yeah. So, another part of the world was becoming exposed. It was being exposed to us. And so, yeah, we’re the first to utilize acupuncture to treat people with HIV/AIDS. It was a [00:36:00] very innovative program. Very innovative program because we also used our social politics, our insights, into the impact of racism, sexism, classism, to address the plight of geographics, use it as part of the therapy. And I think that, in retrospect, looking back to the question of the Young Lords, it was one of the most successful moments, okay, for the Young Lords in New York. I think that another -- and I think this has to do with the transition the Young Lords took later on, but it was another, I think, very impactful moment that I was a part of the Young Lords was the Attica [00:37:00] uprising. When Young Lords established themselves in New York, at first, there was a lot of abuse taking place against inmates in the county jails. And out of that, there was some riots that occurred in the county jails, in the Tombs, and Brooklyn House of Detention, and Rikers Island and like that. And inmates coming out of jail that joined the Young Lords formed the Inmates Liberation Front. Um, some of the people that were engaged in that, the people in the leadership of that turned out to be very opportunist and started using that as a front for hustle. So, the Young Lords shut it [00:38:00] down. But then, in 1971, in August of 1971, a young man named Jose Paris, who was a Young Lord, knocked on the door the Young 15 �Lord’s office says, “Jose Paris, GI, reporting for to The Young Lords branch of Attica.” We didn’t even know that there were Young Lords in Attica. And he came down to tell us that Attica was about to blow. And in September, it blew. And we did a lot, a lot of work around Attica. But understand that work around prisoners’ rights, work around drug addicts was not the work that some intellectuals considered honorable, um, [00:39:00] you know, dealing with a certain class of people. And I think some intellectualizing tendencies among some of the people, and the influence, the bad influence of some of the leftists got the leadership of the organization, or some people, and I contend, me, this is my opinion, that the police infiltration all worked together to move the Young Lords away from what had made the Young Lords successful. JJ: What do you mean? VA: For example, [00:40:00] putting an end to the prisoner support work. For example, disconnecting itself from the Lincoln detox program that we helped founded. It would eventually became a political program of the Young Lords to disengage from all community work, meaning not just in those areas, but meaning in housing, in the community offices that we had. I was running the last office that we had, which is in the Bronx, Cypress Avenue on 141st. Eventually, the Lower East Side El Barrio offices were shut down, as were other community offices [00:41:00] around the country. And there was a planned agenda to “transform,” quote-unquote, the Young Lords into the P-R-R-W-O, the Puerto Rican Revolutionary Workers Organization. And that meant that they had to cut ties with all the other work, according to them. What, in fact, it did was put an 16 �end to the Young Lords in New York. You know, there was an assembly held, I think I mentioned this before, but there was an assembly held in Hunts Point Palace, I believe it was 1973, early 1973, and I never forget that one brother got up and said, “I have no problem with the posters hanging,” they had Marx, [00:42:00] Lenin, Engels, Mao, he says, “What problem I have is with the ones that are not hanging. Where is Don Pedro? Where’s Lolita? Where’s Blanca Canales? Where are the Nationalists?” You know, Letansas, Hostos, none of those people. You know? And it was an effort to steer the organization away from its Revolutionary Nationalist roots into being a part of this Marxist-Leninist Communist rebuilding process in the United States. JJ: (inaudible) just to the workers, instead of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) VA: Yeah, I think that there was -- first of all, my opinion, there was a misconception about Lumpen. Okay, the misconception had to do with -- Lumpen is a parasite, okay? The mafia is a Lumpen. We weren’t Lumpens. We were the unemployed sector of the working class [00:43:00] -- JJ: (inaudible) VA: -- which the Black Panther Party called the lumpenproletariat, okay? But there was a move to ignore that part of society and to focus on the workers of the means of production, theoretically, because what in reality was intellectuals locking themselves up in rooms, holding meeting after meeting, debating each other, cutting each other down, about who supported the Molsheviks -- the Bolsheviks, the Mensheviks, this, you know, the Albanian line, the China line, the Russia line. I mean, it was, you know, all stuff which I consider important, but it 17 �was totally irrelevant to the people in our community, [00:44:00] since we are not -- in our community either through words or deeds the way we did before. And I think the ultimate act of that was, I believe, that the police led us into a confrontation with the police in 1971 at the Puerto Rican Day Parade, and that that confrontation changed the relationship that we had with our community. I remember being that person running the Bronx office in June of 1971. I remember the day before people coming to bring us food, make sure that we ate. And I remember going back to open that office after the Puerto Rican Day, and people walking across the street. JJ: So, you said the programs were sacrificed. (inaudible) VA: Everything was sacrificed. Everything was sacrificed, even the cadres that were assigned to details were pulled out. Like I said, I was the last [00:45:00] -- I ran the last office in the Bronx, and, you know, I went to that assembly, and I thought about it, and, you know, part of growing up politically was coming to terms with understanding that the commitment was to a cause, not an organization, and that the Young Lords that were becoming PRRWO was not something that I wanted to be a part of anymore, but that the commitment had to continue to the cause. It’s another way of saying, you know, if you’re going someplace in a car, and the car breaks down, then you get on roller skates, you get on whatever it is that takes you where you want to go. One of the things that, [00:46:00] to me, was very disturbing was I felt that PRRWO just wanted to turn the page on people who were our heroes, who had sacrificed themselves for the cause, you know, and it’s not about whether you agree that their actions were the most correct. 18 �They did the best they could. And one of the cases -- the case that when I walked away from the Young Lords, the first thing I did was work on the campaign to free the New York Five. The New York Five were two Boricuas and three Black brothers of African-American ancestry. All three. All five were Black, two Boricuas, two brothers, one who had been a member of the Young Lords, Gabriel Torres, [00:47:00] and who had been gone underground with the Black Liberation Army, had gotten caught, and his brother Francisco, which years later, Francisco “Cisco” Torres would once again become the target of the government recently, about a year ago, the State of California dropped the charges against the former members of the Black Panther Party known as the San Francisco Eight. Cisco Torres was the last defendant that they dropped the charges on. So, we go back to 1970, you know? But those people, when they were arrested, this Marxist-Leninist movement completely ignored them, like they told them, “We’re going to build a party,” [00:48:00] you know. And I felt that if we can’t stand up for our own, we can’t stand up for anybody. And so, you know, we built a committee. I, along with other former members of the Black Panther Party, which was also in turmoil at the time, there had been a split between the Huey faction and Cleaver faction, so called. And, you know, Safiya Bukhari and myself, and [Zeit?] and some other folks created a committee to free the New York Five. Mickey Melendez -- I think it’s also important to mention that, when that assembly took place at the Hunts Point Palace, the one that I referred to, there had been an operation in place within the Young Lords, [00:49:00] also to build a clandestine military movement operation that was predicated upon having 19 �a political above-ground organization that really responded to. It was not to be a fly by night military adventure. It was something that was to be guided by a political above ground organization. The same time that the assembly was taking place at the Hunts Point Palace, folks that were involved in the military were meeting, and they decided, based on this change that occurred in the Young Lords, the so-called change to the PRRWO, that they closed up shop because the organization that they were committed to didn’t exist anymore. So, we all walked away from that process. [00:50:00] But we continued. One person that I can say that was part of that, because he’s written it in his book, is Mickey Melendez. If you read Mickey Melendez’s book -JJ: He wrote that in there. VA: Yeah. You know, he was a person that had, first of all, founded the Young Lords in New York, and secondly, was assigned to build that military operation. JJ: That’s the only one we’re going to talk about, because he wrote that in the book. VA: That’s the only reason I’m mentioning it now, you know. He had moved on, and had been working with -- and I had been working with, you know, before I left the Lords -- JJ: And it no longer exists. VA: No, no, no. It was shut down that day. We had [00:51:00] been working politically with the case of Carlos Feliciano. And through the case of Carlos Feliciano, Carlos’s case was a very interesting case in that -- and the attorney that worked with us was very much in solidarity with our movement, William Kunstler. Bill was defending Carlos Feliciano, and he made an incredible 20 �maneuver in the court. Basically, Carlos Feliciano had spent about, I think, almost two years in jail before going to trial and being found guilty of placing some artifacts on, you know, some stores in New York. He was sentenced. Now under New York State law, you have to serve at least one year in the state penitentiary before you are considered for parole. But because he had served almost two years in county jail, they [00:52:00] didn’t count that. You have to go and begin -- now if you’re a rich man, okay, you get arrested today, you get bailed out tomorrow, you get convicted, and then you serve the year, you have the possibility of parole. But poor person that can’t afford the bail has to sit in county jail, and that time doesn’t count. And so Bill Kunstler appealed that in the state court, and the Court of Appeals opted for resentencing Carlos Feliciano to a time served to get him out of jail, because they didn’t want to deal with that issue. So, Carlos gets out, the committee gets transformed into the committee to free the Nationalists. So, I began working with Mickey, [00:53:00] the committee to free the Nationalists, and at the same time, the case of the New York Five. The organization that grew out of the Young Lords, PRRWO, continued in its process of degeneration. And by, I believe it’s late 1975, the beginning of 1976, it had become almost like a cult. And in the same tradition that had destroyed the Black Panther Party, COINTELPRO operations, it [00:54:00] began engaging in kidnappings and tortures and all of that, of people inside the movement, in the name of purifying the politics. And they kidnapped and tortured Richie Pérez -- I need to speak about Richie Pérez. Richie Pérez, I met in my neighborhood. Richie Pérez is one of the fellas who lived in my hood, okay? A brilliant, brilliant 21 �man. He was the youngest teacher in Monroe High School where I went, where I went very briefly, since I was -- they didn’t even allow me to drop out of high school. They kicked me out of high school. I was banned from the public school system. I was, like, totally rebellious, self-destructive, you know? Um, and [00:55:00] I ran into Richie. Richie was a good friend, you know, in the neighborhood. Then I stopped seeing Richie around the neighborhood, and I ran into Richie in the middle of a police riot -- I mean, in the middle of a massive arrival that occurred in Orchard Beach in the Bronx on July the Fourth, 1970. He had already joined the Young Lords. And I was still trying to struggle with my demons, and I go to Orchard Beach, a fight breaks out when a cop hits one of the fellas with a night stick who was sitting on the handrail, and my boy kicked him in the face. That was the end to that. I mean, all hell broke loose. The beach was packed. And we went to war, (Spanish) [00:55:55] you know? And in the middle [00:56:00] of this madness, I see Richie Pérez, who was heading a team of Young Lords who are in the beach, selling Palante, Palante being the Young Lords newspaper. And I said, “My God, look at my teacher. Oh, you’re Richie,” you know, like, I viewed him in a very special place. He was a very special person. And he’s throwing down, you know? He’s throwing down against the police. That was very inspiring, too. I think that he had a lot to do to help me ultimately make the decision that I made, people that I respected being in the Young Lords, and now I knew people personally. Anyway, Richie, sadly, went on with PRRWO for a period, until they kidnapped and tortured him. And we heard about it, Mickey and myself and [00:57:00] [Nathan Rodriguez?], who 22 �was also a former Young Lord working with us on the case of Carlos Feliciano and all that, campaigning for the Nationalists. Heard about it, we denounced it, and then we got close to -- because the only role models that we had in our community about the politics that we were espousing were old Nationalists. And Carlos Feliciano was an old Nationalist. He invited us to come to Puerto Rico and to join the Nationalist Party. He professed to be committed to reactivating the Nationalist Party. So, in that spirit, we came to Puerto Rico, I believe it was ’76, come to Puerto Rico to a Nationalist Party assembly, and the day that we are leaving back to New York, we stopped at a bar in El Condado [00:58:00] for a couple of drinks, we have hours to kill before heading to the airport. And we walked into this bar, and in the dark bar in the back was Richie and Diana Pérez, his compañera, both of them had been kidnapped and tortured together. And Richie had disappeared after that happened. Nobody had contact with him. And so we meet accidentally, you know. And I know that Richie was leery, you know, but because I was the closest to him between and Mickey, I, you know, I knew him since I was a kid, we knew each other. I went up to Richie and I gave him my telephone number, I said, “Listen, if you feel like it when you get back to New York, give me a call. Know that we’re not here to hurt you,” [00:59:00] you know. He took the number. They walked out of the bar, and we let them walk. And he called me a couple of weeks later back in New York. That’s how Richie really integrated himself into the Puerto Rican movement. And Richie was a very, very special person, a very special Young Lord, because he carried out that commitment throughout his life, all the way until his death. He passed away from 23 �cancer. Richie and I, after that, we moved in together for a time, and you know, when he broke up with his compañera, we were part of the campaign that were about the release of the Nationalists. We helped found the National Congress of Puerto Rican [01:00:00] Rights. We engaged in the campaign against that racist movie called Four Apache in the Bronx, which was a tremendous campaign. We initiated in New York under the National Congress, the whole campaign against police brutality. And we continued to work together until his death. But a very, very special person in my life and in our lives, politically, and in New York Young Lords. JJ: He continued, also, some other projects after that on his own? VA: Well, no, he worked. He worked as a job for the Community Service Society and helped open up that space for us to use as a base of operation, you know, to carry on the work around police brutality and all that. [01:01:00] So, I think those are the important points that I wanted to add to the interview that I didn’t touch on before JJ: Anything else? VA: Well, I mean, yeah. I mean the other things in, you know, the work in 1975, when I came back from Puerto Rico, a struggle began to develop in New York, which is very important. New York went into a financial crisis, and the first thing that they opted for attacking was institutions that service Black and Puerto Rican communities. So, for example, they decided to close down Sydenham Hospital, served the Harlem community. They decided to close two community colleges, [01:02:00] one of them Hostos Community College had only opened up in 1971, 24 �now in 1975 they wanted to shut it down. It was a community college was based in an abandoned tire factory, a warehouse in the South Bronx. I got a call from one of the brothers that was in a prison release program, a prison study release program that was at the tail end of his sentence, and he was serving time for drug-related offenses, not for violent offenses. And they had this program where they would release inmates from Sing Sing early in the morning, put them in the train to New York City, they will go to school and then go back to Sing Sing at night. And it was a program called [01:03:00] (Spanish). And one of the participants in that program was a friend of mine who I met through his brother, who was a supporter of the Young Lords, Rookie Alanis. I forgot what his name is, we called him Rookie all the time. And he called me, says, “Oh, man, they gonna shut down out our school. And, you know, like, I’m down with this, except that I’m already in jail and if I get busted now, I’m in a release program, I’m never coming home, you know?” So, through Rookie’s call, I got involved in the campaign to save Hostos Community College. That campaign led to the longest takeover of any college in the City of New York. I think we spent, if I remember correct, 29 days, [01:04:00] until they couldn’t take it no more and they busted all of us, sent us to jail. But it was a very successful campaign. It was a campaign that brought -- at that time, I was a member of the Nationalist Party, former Young Lord, and we worked in a coalition with the Puerto Rican Socialist Party. It was one of their cadres who, in fact, led that campaign successfully, Ramon Jimenez, um, who eventually got purged from the Puerto Rican Socialist Party because they thought that he was not following their lead. One of the things that 25 �I think is important to recognize is that the vacuum that existed in New York in the progressive politics of the Puerto Rican community, [01:05:00] existed because the movement, those people that had come from Puerto Rico to New York, had come with an agenda that was different. Their agenda was basically to use New York as a resource for their organizations in Puerto Rico, but nowhere in their agenda did they have the Puerto Ricans that were in New York and their issues. JJ: So, they were not connected at all to the community. VA: Exactly. And that was one of the problems that we had with the Puerto Rican Socialist Party group that was part of the Hostos takeover, were about the issues there. JJ: Which is vice versa which was accused of the Young Lords when they went to Puerto Rico. They were not connected. VA: Exactly. Well, the thing with the Young [01:06:00] Lords of Puerto Rico, is a whole other matter. I mean, I think that, you know, we -- see, the Puerto Rican Socialist Party members that were part of the Hostos takeover, people like Ramon Jimenez, people like [Victor Bacques?], people like Liz -- my God, I’ve forgotten her name right now, she’s a judge now. A number of them, they were, you know, people, many of them were rooted in the Puerto Rican community in New York. They knew what was going on, they had a sense for that. One of the efforts of the Young Lords from New York made, Young Lords party in New York was an effort to open up fronts of struggle here in Puerto Rico. And that failed. [01:07:00] It failed miserably, because the people that came here were Puerto 26 �Rican, were the children of Puerto Rican parents, but did not have a connection to the Puerto Rican reality. JJ: Right, over here, in Puerto Rico. VA: Exactly. JJ: Which [goes back?] we’re a divided nation. VA: See I don’t agree with that. We’re not divided nation, okay? This is a very important point. Listen, the nation of Puerto Rico, it’s intact. We are a divided people, okay, but no, because see that -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) VA: -- that issue has come up repeatedly and is a misrepresentation of a reality that continues to get us into political jam. The nation isn’t Puerto Rico. It’s a colony. JJ: I get that from (inaudible). VA: But that also came from the [01:08:00] Puerto Rico Socialist Party, and the MPI, that’s in the same position, and there are people even today that say that. And I think -- JJ: So, you’re saying we’re a divided people. VA: We’re a divided people by forced migration, living, you know -- being Puerto Ricans, part lives on the island of Puerto Rico, and the other part lives a different reality in the United States. It’s a different reality. We’re not living the Puerto Rican reality in the United States. If you’re in Chicago, you’re not living Luis Fortuño’s government. You’re living [lady?] government. You know? You’re living that. You’re living in a different environment with a multiplicity of people from other nationalities of the whole racial culture of the United States. It’s all 27 �very different from -- you know? In fact, I’ll tell you a very quick story. I have a very dear friend, a young lady who came from Puerto Rico to New York, and who I met when we took over the Statue of Liberty [01:09:00] the second time. I was arrested with Tito Kayak; we took over the Statue of Liberty during the campaign to get the Navy out of Vieques. JJ: But the first one, you put the flag up. VA: Yeah, the first one, it’s this one here. Okay? That was the first takeover. Then Tito Kayak came to New York, we hooked up in New York, and he got on top of the Statue of Liberty, on the crown here. Um, and she got arrested the same day with me. That’s how I met her. But the point of the story is that [Camila?], one day asked me, “Why is it so important for people here,” in New York,” being Puerto Rican?” And see, and I thought about that for a while. [01:10:00] It was really quite simple. You know, in Puerto Rico, everybody assumes everybody else is Puerto Rican. In the United States, being Puerto Rican is something that they never let you forget. When you go to school, they never let you forget. When you go and rent an apartment, they never let you -- you go to buy a house, they don’t let you forget. You go to apply for a job, they never let you forget. The discrimination, the attitude, you know, the apartheid culture of the United States makes it so that Puerto Rican is something that you live every day. Even though you’re not living the Puerto Rican reality of the colony, you are discriminated -- I know a case, for example, Professor Rivera Garcia, who was a muralist, [01:11:00] renowned the worldwide muralist of Puerto Rico, brought in an exchange from the University of Puerto Rico to the university system in New 28 �York, and they sent an American professor from New York to Puerto Rico. Except that CUNY and the university system forgot to make arrangements for his living situation here and his family for the year they was going to spend in New York. And this guy was a pro statehooder who was put in the National Commission of the Arts by Bush, father, I think was, and he gets in New York, very white-skinned, blue-eyed Puerto Rican, has a son with blue eyes and blonde hair, wife is blonde, they get to New York, they rent an apartment in the [flock neck?] section of the Bronx, an Italian section. No problem. [01:12:00] Until one day, this widower, Italian widower in the building kept seeing him come up and down, and one day they said, “Excuse me, where you from?” He said, “From Puerto Rico.” Says, “I thought you were Greek. We don’t like Puerto Ricans. You gotta get the fuck out of my building.” This guy started a campaign of terror against that family, cutting their lights, their water, confront him, threatening him, his kid, his wife, destroying his car, his motor-- I think it was a motorcycle. I’m sorry. And until one day, defending himself, he shot this guy. And it became a big case in New York. This guy thought he was an Americano, until they asked him where [01:13:00] he came from. He said, “I’m Puerto Rican,” and even though he was white-skinned, blonde hair, blue-eyed, all that crap, all of a sudden, he was no good. See, that’s the experience. JJ: This was the case, what year it happened? VA: Oh, my God. This was, I think it’s like the early ’80s. A very, very important case. The head of the Puerto Rican Legal Defense Fund at the time, Ruben Franco, was the attorney who defended him. It was heavy. It was heavy. You 29 �know, and it was a wake-up call for a lot of blanquito Puerto Ricans, that thought that they -JJ: (inaudible) VA: -- that they could get, you know, [01:14:00] pass for being American, you know. Yeah. So, you know, I was arrested in 1977. I was the first person -- actually, not the first person either, because David Pérez was arrested when he came and knocked on my door, they thought that he was me, and then -- JJ: Everybody says the first. You were the first in a cell block? (laughs) VA: No, of people accused of being the FALN, before they were prisoners, you know. And I went to jail, spent six months -- JJ: Six months? VA: -- in jail, was bailed out, and I was acquitted in 45 minutes. JJ: A few Young Lords did that for support. VA: Yeah, but I’m saying I was the first of, you know, of that new wave of repression that [01:15:00] came against our movements. They first accused me of the Mobil Oil building bombing in Manhattan, and then they dropped those charges, and a few months later, they rearrested me and accused me of entering a court with a gun. That’s what I was acquitted in 45 minutes on. It was, you know -- they created such a drama about something that didn’t happen, that they lied, they stumbled all over themselves, and the jury saw right through it. But you know, it’s part of what happens when you believe in something and then you stand for something. So, yeah. That’s it. I mean -- one of the things that I think it’s important to note, historically, [01:16:00] in a way it’s very sad, is that the Puerto 30 �Rican movement has been the only national movement capable of freeing political prisoners in the United States. And obviously, there are two ways of freeing political prisoners. You either go and break them out of jail, or you wage a political campaign for their freedom. It’s incorrect to say the only movement, because the Black Liberation movement freed us out of [Shakuma?]. But in terms of political campaigns. In 1950, on November 1 of 1950, Griselio Torresola and Oscar Collazo attacked [01:17:00] Blair house, which was then the residence of President Truman. Griselio Torresola was killed, Oscar Collazo was arrested, sentenced to death, his death sentence was commuted, and he was one of the Nationalists in jail. Then in 1954, Lolita Lebrón, Irvin Flores, and Figueroa Cordero, and Rafael Cancel Miranda attacked the Congress of the United States. Together, they became the five Nationalists in prison. It was those Nationalists that we marched for in 1970, my very first Puerto Rican demonstration down to the United Nations. That was our demand for their freedom. [01:18:00] One of the demands. Also, the independence of Puerto Rico, and the end of police brutality. But the point is that that was the campaign that we were engaged in after I left the Young Lords with Mickey, and [Mifda?], Rodriguez, and other folks. Um, in 1977, after years of mobilizing people to Washington, constantly demanding the release of the five Nationalists -- and I gotta say that a lot of people used to tell us that we were crazy, that those people are gonna die in jail, forget about them people, you’re wasting your time. But we continued, and continued educating, organizing, mobilizing people, [01:19:00] and 1977 came into, for some reason, a moment in that campaign where people were just like, 31 �you know, we’ve been going to Washington for years, and this year, it was becoming difficult to mobilize. In 1975, a second front for that campaign had been opened up when the FALN began bombings, you know, propaganda, acts of armed propaganda, raising the issue of the Nationalist prisoners. We felt that we needed to open up a third front, which would be a front of mass militancy that went beyond just [01:20:00] demonstrations and petitions. And we looked at the Statue of Liberty and we said, “Hm, (laughs) you know, that’s a great image for us to use to do that.” And we went about the business of identifying people who we trusted, who trusted us, our political judgment, so that we did not -- so that we were able to get their commitment to be a part of an action in which they would be arrested without them demanding or needing to know what the action would be. There were only three people that planned this action. It was three former Young Lords, who were Mickey Melendez, Richie Pérez, and I, and we went about [01:21:00] the business of casing the place and studying all the security and transportation, and, you know, all the possibilities, and how to carry this out, and identifying the people, checking the people that we were approaching. And one day, we asked people to meet us in different parts of the city, three teams. We converged on Battery Park in the Lower Manhattan, which is where you take the ferry to Statue of Liberty on the first boat. Um, I was out on bail at the time of the takeover. We had a tremendous battle, Richie, Mickey, and I, about the role that I was to play, because I was out on bail, and they felt, they says, “You get locked up again, you ain’t going home.” [01:22:00] And I was arguing that I was going to go in, no matter what nobody said, you know, and like that, that I 32 �couldn’t lead people to something that I was not going to be about, you know, taking the risk that I was asking people to take. But it was a very tedious process. The night before that morning, we met at a bar, Richie, Mickey, and I, a bar on 14th Street, it was, uh, Blarney Stone, one of those Irish bars. It was [larizula?] trying to talk, and guys were literally swinging from chandeliers, crashing, throwing glasses and bottles, you know, fighting among themselves, and we’re trying to have -- but in a way, it was a great cover for our meetings. We used to have our meetings, you know, in different places all the time. So, you know, the [01:23:00] next few hours later, we went about the plan, executing the plan that we had put together with some variations, because, for example, we have thought about using thumbtacks and Krazy Glue to cement the thumbtacks up the stairs so that the cops would have a hard time getting to the top of the Statue of Liberty to arrest people. And we were going to spread the stairs with motor oil so they would slip down the stairs and fall on thumbtacks. (laughs) And then in the process of our conversation, we say, “Holy shit, but those are the same stairs they’re gonna be bringing the people on.” So, we discarded that idea, you know? And we frankly expected that the takeover [01:24:00] was going to be short lived. We had concerns about the ability to hold the Statue of Liberty long enough for the media to cover the fact we have it taken over. And it didn’t turn out that way, though. What happened was that, because of all of the aura around issues in Puerto Rico, which had to do with the campaign, which had to do with the bombings that were taking place, all of that, it was a media frenzy. And it was also a law enforcement frenzy. When the Statue of Liberty gets taken 33 �over, they start fighting among themselves about who is going to have jurisdiction to do [01:25:00] the arrests of the people in the Statue of Liberty? So, you have the New York City Police Department, you have the FBI, you have the Federal Parks police, you have all these people arguing among themselves, and the hours begin to drag, you know. Something that started out with the first of boat in the morning to the Statue of Liberty, now it’s midafternoon, and these people are still arguing, who’s going to go ahead to arrest these people. And meanwhile, they’re creating all of this drama, the fact that most of the people arrested were not just Puerto Rican, but were North American people, Asians, African Americans, they started circulating amongst the news that [01:26:00] this was a standoff with the FALN and the Black Liberation Army and the Weather Underground. I mean, it was just all kinds of craziness that happened that day. Eventually, they decided they went in and arrested everybody. Twenty-seven people, I believe, were arrested. Involved in the process were 31, I believe it was total, people involved in that action. And it went way beyond our wildest expectations, because that picture became the front-page picture in newspapers around the world. I mean, Belgium, France, Paris, London, England, Australia, [01:27:00] everywhere. We got copies of this papers -- this picture from papers all over the world. And it raised worldwide attention about the case of the five Nationalist prisoners and the colonial case of Puerto Rico. So, we were successful beyond our dreams, and you know what we are projecting. It’s one more thing that we did. JJ: All right. 34 �VA: Yeah. END OF VIDEO FILE 35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7f882233001b834b8cc2cfdb0a51460b.mp4 5e7c3e30a5b3552aa3dbef1e58f51ebe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Vicente “Panama” Alba vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Descripción Spanish language Description entry Vicente “Panamá” Alba es un Young Lord quien nació en Panamá, migro a la ciudad de Nueva York en 1961 y ahora vive en Puerto Rico. El a trabajado por muchos años con la organización Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) de AFL/CIO, quien defiende los trabajadores inmigrantes y los indocumentaditos en los industriosas de recicla y las eliminación de los desechos. Durante la rebelión de Attica, (Septiembre 9, 1971) Señor Alba soportó reclusos en sus negaciones. Señor Alaba ha sido parte de dos tomadas de la Estatua de Libertad, la primera es plantando la bandera de Puerto Rico en la Estatua en parte de una campaña para libertar los Nacionalistas Puertorriqueños que fueron encarcelados y el segundo fue en soportar la lucha de la gente de Vieques. Un ferviente admirador de Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Señor Alba continua abogar por autodeterminación por Puerto Rico y a sido parte de los Nacionalistas y otros grupos, incluyendo unas organizaciones en la comunidad que hacen campañas para libertar los prisioneros de política, uno siendo Oscar López. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Panamañians--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Alba_Vicente_2 Title A name given to the resource Vicente “Panama” Alba video interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alba, Vicente Description An account of the resource Vicente “Panama” Alba is a Young Lord who was born in Panama, immigrated to New York City in 1961, and now lives in Puerto Rico. He worked many years as an organizer with Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) of the AFL/CIO, advocating for immigrant and undocumented workers in the solid waste and recycling industry. During the Attica Rebellion, September 9, 1971, he supported the inmates in their negotiations. Mr. Alba has been involved in two takeovers of the Statue of Liberty, first supporting the occupation and the planting of the Puerto Rican flag on the Statue as part of a campaign to free the Puerto Rican Nationalist prisoners and the second in support of the struggle of the people of Vieques. A fervent admirer of Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Mr. Alba continues to advocate for self-determination for Puerto Rico and has been involved with the Nationalists and other parties, including several community organizing campaigns to free political prisoners, including Oscar López. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Panamanians--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/86bc18479d064e5b9c40b55f30031d91.pdf b791bf441d3a05f14c6e32b0c6428574 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Vicente “Panama” Alba Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/14/2012 Biography and Description English Vicente “Panama” Alba is a Young Lord who was born in Panama, immigrated to New York City in 1961, and now lives in Puerto Rico. He worked many years as an organizer with Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) of the AFL/CIO, advocating for immigrant and undocumented workers in the solid waste and recycling industry. During the Attica Rebellion, September 9, 1971, he supported the inmates in their negotiations. Mr. Alba has been involved in two takeovers of the Statue of Liberty, first supporting the occupation and the planting of the Puerto Rican flag on the Statue as part of a campaign to free the Puerto Rican Nationalist prisoners and the second in support of the struggle of the people of Vieques. A fervent admirer of Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Mr. Alba continues to advocate for self- determination for Puerto Rico and has been involved with the Nationalists and other parties, including several community organizing campaigns to free political prisoners, including Oscar López. Spanish Vicente “Panamá” Alba es un Young Lord quien nació en Panamá, migro a la ciudad de Nueva York en 1961 y ahora vive en Puerto Rico. El a trabajado por muchos años con la organización Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) de AFL/CIO, quien defiende los trabajadores inmigrantes y los indocumentaditos en los �industriosas de recicla y las eliminación de los desechos. Durante la rebelión de Attica, (Septiembre 9, 1971) Señor Alba soportó reclusos en sus negaciones. Señor Alaba ha sido parte de dos tomadas de la Estatua de Libertad, la primera es plantando la bandera de Puerto Rico en la Estatua en parte de una campaña para libertar los Nacionalistas Puertorriqueños que fueron encarcelados y el segundo fue en soportar la lucha de la gente de Vieques. Un ferviente admirador de Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Señor Alba continua abogar por autodeterminación por Puerto Rico y a sido parte de los Nacionalistas y otros grupos, incluyendo unas organizaciones en la comunidad que hacen campañas para libertar los prisioneros de política, uno siendo Oscar López. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, now we’re going to do it again. Name, date of birth. VICENTE ALBA: Vicente Alba, called Panama, and I was born April 3, 1951, in Panama City, Panama. JJ: So, you were born, so when did you come to the States? VA: I went to New York in 1961 at the age of 10. And I think it’s important to understand that I went to New York with a lot of dreams, a lot of illusions about where I was going to. And that very quickly turned into a nightmare. JJ: What about your parents? Did they come with you? VA: My father, my father was already in New York. My mother came and my sister came with me. JJ: And your father’s name? VA: My father’s name is Tito -- was Tito Alba. JJ: He’s passed away? VA: He’s passed away. [00:01:00] My mother also passed away; name is [Espere Alba?]. And my sister Maria. JJ: Your sister Maria? VA: And I. So, we settled in the southeast section of the Bronx. The place was very segregated. JJ: We’re talking about what years? VA: Nineteen sixty-one. JJ: It was segregated. 1 �VA: Very segregated. I mean, south of the Bronx River was all Black and Latino. Where my parents got the apartment, which is just north of that, in the southeast section of the Bronx. It was mixed, but right -- JJ: [San Risa?]? VA: Soundview. JJ: (inaudible) [00:02:00] VA: Soundview was mixed, and right north of there, right after the overpass to the Bronx River Parkway, it was white. And if you got caught in that side of the tracks, you were done. JJ: And when you say white, Italian, Italian, Irish? VA: Italian Irish. You know, as I said, I came very naïve, very sheltered. JJ: What do you mean, sheltered? VA: Sheltered, I mean, my, you know, my parents were very protective of me. I had no sense of the streets. But I had a very rapid transformation. By the age of 14, I was totally rebellious. JJ: So, you came from very sheltered, [what do you mean by that]? VA: Let me explain. I’ll do that. I, [00:03:00] you know, I had encounters. For example, I started rebelling first with -- what happened to me was this. I didn’t even know how to speak English at the time. I was about 13. The police raided my neighborhood, there was something called the TPF Tactical Police Force, and they were the riot cops, the riot police. When they were not involved in a siege in a community where there was upheaval, they hit Black and Puerto Rican communities throughout the city. One day they came to my neighborhood, and it 2 �was early summer, and they grabbed all the kids and took us into a backyard. And I had never experienced anything like this. These [00:04:00] white cops, they was big mountain boys, huge white guys, calling me dirty fucking Puerto Ricans. And, you know, cops, they used to carry rubber hoses, and beat you with, and blackjacks. The cop is beating me with a rubber hose that’s calling me a dirty Puerto Rican, so I’m trying to get out of an ass whipping, I said, “Officer, not Puerto Rican, Panamanian.” He says, “I don’t give a fuck what kind of Puerto Rican you are, I’m just whipping you.” And I got very angry. I said, “Motherfucker, I am a Puerto Rican. Whatever that is, I am now.” You know? Um, you gotta remember the time that it was. It was a time of a lot of social upheaval. I mean, it was the time of Malcolm X, the time of Black Power, the time of the antiwar movement -JJ: Sixty-four, sixty-six? [00:05:00] VA: -- ’62, ’63, ’64. And, you know, the youth revolution, the antiwar movement, the Black Power movement, the Civil Rights movement, all of these things are happening. JJ: And when you come in here from Panama, you already (inaudible)? VA: No, I’m not. Well, I mean, that’s another story. Because see, in Panama, my grandfather owned a boarding house. And my first social consciousness had to do with the fact that there were a lot of Cuban exiles, young men, mainly college students, that were exiled because Batista wanted to kill them because they were supporting Movimiento 26 de Julio. So, that was my first recollection as a child. And Fidel was a hero in Latin America. You know? [00:06:00] He was a hero, 3 �until he declared that he was a Communist, and then all of a sudden, he was the devil, you know? But he took on a dictatorship backed by the United States when there were a lot of dictatorships backed by the United States, and he beat them, and took over and created a society that was for Cubans. So, that was my first political experience. And my grandfather, my grandfather had been an anarchist, and fought against Franco in Spain. So, I had those things, you know. But when I came to the United States, none of that made any sense to me, initially. I just got very rebellious, became very self-destructive. I mean, some of us were self-destroying from gangs, others were self-destroying from drugs. [00:07:00] I turned to a lot of drugs. JJ: So, you were involved in a gang, too? VA: I didn’t join the gang, but I was doing a lot of drugs. JJ: (inaudible) you got into the drug scene. VA: I got into this drug scene, very heavy. JJ: And you’re talking about hard drugs, too? VA: Very hard drugs, because I was shooting heroin at the age of 14, you know? Um, I got into a lot of the rock scene. I went to the Fillmore East, I went to Woodstock, you know, the heavy drugs. And I was very confused. I mean, I was just angry. Angry because the world was really fucked up. And I had come to this place that was supposed to be the home of democracy and the land of the free, and it was hell. You know? JJ: You were already a little bit (inaudible) angry, anyway. VA: Sure. 4 �JJ: And then the drug scene and all that is putting you down, putting you down, [00:08:00] more or less. Or at least, you know, people using drugs were put down at that time, (inaudible). VA: Yeah, but I mean. I was at the point I didn’t give a fuck. I frankly didn’t give a fuck. I stopped giving a fuck about everything. JJ: (inaudible) VA: You know, I used to see the Black Liberation movement, the Black Power movement, I used to see Malcolm X on TV, then the Black Panthers hit the scene. I didn’t know about these other movements in the United States, but I knew about the Black Panthers. And I was struggling with my mind that I want to join the Black Panthers. JJ: When was the first time you heard about the Black Panthers? VA: In the newspapers. The shootouts, everything that was going on. When they marched on the governor’s, you know, the Capitol in California, all of that caught the press. And, you know, [00:09:00] I didn’t speak good English, but I read, and I watched the news. And then I’m into the drugs and I’m thinking, you know, like, I gotta do something. The world’s fucked up. I gotta do something. Um, and then one day, it’s around Christmastime, I put on the TV, and there’s this group called the Young Lords took over a church in El Barrio, New York. And I said to myself, damn, now we’re in the fucking scene. Finally, we -- you know, we’re now a part of all this that’s going on around the world, the Vietnam War, people are fighting all over the world and -- but, you know, and I would have joined the 5 �Panthers. But Young Lords came on the scene. But I had a problem. Drugs. I struggled with that. The Young Lords -JJ: For how many years? VA: I struggled since I was 14. Now I was 19, [00:10:00] 18, 18 or 19. JJ: And you were shooting every day. VA: That’s how I got into that, yeah. JJ: That’s how you got into it. VA: I was evicted. And I saw the Young Lords for that takeover of the church, and I’m struggling with this. And then the Young Lords with the Puerto Rican Student Union held a conference at Columbia University, and they called for a demonstration to the United Nations. That was October 30, 1970. And the kids from all the schools, just pouring out that day to go to this demonstration. I was so hooked. I went, but I got there late. I got to the march late. So, when I got to the march, the people that I was supposed to hook up with [00:11:00] already marching. This was the biggest demonstration that had come out of our community. I had been to marches against the Vietnam War. I had gone to Washington to the Pentagon, on the bus ride. But from our own community, at least 10,000 people marched down from El Barrio or to the United Nations. And there were three demands. Top demand was (Spanish) [00:11:27]. The second demand was the freedom of Nationalist prisoners. And the third demand was an end to police brutality. And all of this just touched me, in a way. Now I’m not Puerto Rican, but I had come into a city where there were maybe 5,000 Panamanians, where there were maybe 10,000 Dominicans, and 20,000 6 �Cubans, [00:12:00] and 1 million Puerto Ricans in the City of New York. So, the Puerto Rican people defined what being Latino was. You know what I’m saying? And the Young Lords coming into the scene were saying the Latinos are now in the movement. Now there’s a face to our -- and after that demonstration, I struggled a couple of days. And then I had met a woman by the name of Cleo Silvers, who was a Black Panther. And I had never forgotten that. One day I ran into her and decided we would sit down the street. She always used to [kicker?] to me, you know. And one day we’re talking, and she points, and says, “Look over there.” And when I did, it was cops selling dope out of a patrol car. And she says, “See that’s where you’re giving your money. You hate the cops? Look [00:13:00] who’s taking your money.” And that stuck with me, you know? And I decided that I had to be one thing or the other. I couldn’t be a dope fiend and be a revolutionary. And I decided to give the revolution a try. Had to get off the dope. So, I took my last shot of dope, broke my works, and went up to the Puerto Rican Student Union. Cleo, I’d spoken to her on the phone, and she had (inaudible). What she had not told me was the next day, which was November 10th, they were going to take over Lincoln Hospital for the second time. It was a takeover by the Young Lords, and it was a takeover to begin a drug abuse treatment center. JJ: Cleo was in the leadership in those [00:14:00] days? VA: Cleo was in the leadership of this movement. JJ: Of taking over Lincoln Hospital. VA: Yes. 7 �JJ: With the Young Lords. She was a Young Lord, too? VA: Let me explain it to you. There was something called HRUM, Health Revolutionary Unity Movement. And Cleo had been working with the health workers and working around health issues that had been involved with the first take over Lincoln Hospital. And she was, at that moment, in a process of transitioning from the Black Panther Party to the Young Lords. The Black Panthers were involved with the first takeover, but they had the Panther 21 case, and they were like, totally tied up in defending themselves by this point. Cleo was working with HRUM, so she started -- and was recruited into the Young Lords because they were doing the work that she wanted to do. And so she called me. I go the next [00:15:00] day. I’m kicking a dope habit. And, you know, I go to Lincoln Hospital, and they had just taken over the hospital two hours ago. You know, police have surrounded the place, I mean, people was picketing outside, and I walk into the scene, and I said, “This is it. This is beautiful,” you know. So, I literally kicked the dope habit while starting a drug program for other addicts, although I wasn’t taking Methadone, I just quite cold. But that was something that I had decided to do. I was testing myself. And that’s how I came to become active in the movement. I worked for like, it was a matter of weeks, two weeks, three weeks, with the detox program exclusively. And then on Saturdays, I went out to do lead testing, TB testing, with the Young Lords HRUM, [00:16:00] and they asked me to join the Lords. I didn’t know it at the time, but see, there was a group of people that knew who I was that were involved with the Young Lords, Mickey Melendez’s father, Richie Pérez’s father, 8 �and my next-door neighbor, were really tight. They were three merchant seamen. That’s how they knew each other. So, they knew where I came from. So, when I go to the -- and then, there’s another very important thing I need to... I had gotten -- [00:17:00] I was in Monroe High School. They kicked me out of Monroe High School. JJ: Monroe. VA: Okay? Richie Pérez was the youngest teacher in Monroe High School. And me and Richie had become good friends. And then he had quit his job at Monroe, joined the Young Lords. That summer, before the demonstration, July the 4th, 1970 I never forget that day, because it was a full-scale riot in Orchard Beach in Bronx, and we battled with the police for hours. We were just angry, you know? And in the middle of this battle, I ran into Richie with a squad of Young Lords that had been on the beach selling pamphlets. Now we were battling together against the police. I said, “My God, this is my high school teacher, guys, doing battle with the police.” It doesn’t get any better than that. You know what I’m saying? I was very angry. [00:18:00] I think I was angry since the day that the copper whipped my ass. I had kept that inside of me. And, you know, the builtup racism, (inaudible). I almost got killed by a gang of white boys because I was going out with an Irish girl. I mean, these kids beat this shit out of me. I was saved by a Black bus driver. You know? Um, I had all this anger, and that’s what motivated me at the moment of joining the movement, was anger, you know? I thought that we have to do something to change the world. This world that we were living in, it’s no good. Okay? Um, one of the things that happened 9 �to me immediately is that I really began -- and I think it helped me overcome the drugs and everything -- was that I really got to understand, [00:19:00] by working and becoming a Young Lord that it was -- revolution was not just something that you waged against the system. Revolution was something that you waged within yourself. It was about changing. And one of the first challenges was the challenge about machismo. Chauvinism. You know, it was two, three weeks after I kicked dope, I saw women, and it was like, “Oh, baby, come here. I want to talk to you.” JJ: And (inaudible) VA: Yeah. And there was a sister that called me a chauvinist pig. And I was highly offended her calling me a pig. And she ranked onto me because of my conduct throughout the course of the day. It was a Saturday, and we had gone out to do TB testing and lead [00:20:00] poison testing, you know. And I was out there, “Hey, baby, come here, I want to talk,” you know, it was like -- and she really cut into me in such a way that I began to really question myself and the way -- and to understand that you could not talk about liberation while you were oppressing other people, you know? And that stood with me to this day. But it opened my mind to also understanding that I had to challenge everything that I had learned before, all the values, everything. And at the center was the sense of individualism that society teaches you, you know, and that revolution is about fighting for everybody else, sacrificing yourself to fight for everybody else. That’s what Che Guevara talked about; you know? And I began to read. Now they had kicked me out, [00:21:00] they didn’t even let me drop out of high school. 10 �JJ: So, it was more -- nothing to do with -- it was against individuals. VA: Exactly. JJ: More about team. VA: Exactly. About the people. JJ: Collectively. VA: Loving your people is being willing to live, fight for, and even die for, for your people. JJ: And you say Che? VA: Che taught that, talking about socialism and man, the booklet, you know, talking about the new person. And so I joined the Young Lords, you know? And what I understood the Young Lords to be when I joined was a revolutionary Nationalist youth organization. We were about making revolution by the state, the government, for the liberation of our people. And that fight, you know, [00:22:00] sadly, we did not understand at that time that it was a long-term struggle. We thought it was an immediate struggle, because the world was on fire. You know? I mean, people were fighting for liberation around the world. And so we thought that revolution was imminent. Liberation was imminent. We were in a process of revolution. Some things happened in the Young Lords in New York that really put me on my path. Because the other thing about Young Lords for me, when I joined, was this. I had an attitude, you know what? They created the Young Lords, it’s all good, so just tell me where the fuck we gotta go to do war, you know? Like, that’s all. I don’t want to hear all this. JJ: I’m ready. I’m ready. 11 �VA: Yeah, I don’t want to hear all the study this, no, no, you tell me where to [00:23:00] go, I go do it. Fuck it. It’s done. Very simple attitude. Except the summer of 1971, I’m in the Young Lords now just a few months, six months, seven months, very intense months. The Puerto Rican Day Parade is an event that had become highly commercialized and very abused. It was touted as a celebration of Puerto Rican-ness. But the biggest contradiction was that the police led the parade. The police kicked our asses all day long, and then they want to lead our parade. That ain’t happening. [00:24:00] The Young Lords made a call and got the whole Puerto Rican movement to agree to set up an operation to take over the front of the Puerto Rican Day Parade. It was a very poor political decision, simply because, you know, while you’re studying guerrilla warfare, you know, you never take on a greater enemy head on. But they decided to do that. And I was one angry man. I was [the defense ministry?], I was like, “Yo, yeah, that’s it, that’s me. Whatever we’ve gotta do, let’s go do it.” And I was so sold on this idea, although I had nothing to do with the decision, because I was not the leadership. I was so loud. I was the soldier. I was the cadre, that we were trained to go do battle. We [00:25:00] called them Suicide Squad. We were going to take on the police head-on, on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan. And the day before the parade that Saturday was our last training session, we were like running down to Randall’s Island to train, and I slipped on the ramp, and I fell, and I scraped my whole back raw. And it’s very hot. June. So, they sent me back to the headquarters. They patched me up, and they put on medical tape, and, you know? And I’m allergic to medical adhesive, and welts 12 �pop up on my shoulder. And our minister of defense, Juan Gonzalez, comes to me, he says, “You’re off the Suicide Squad.” And that was my first act of insubordination. I said, “You know what? You purge me on Monday, but Sunday, [00:26:00] I’m kicking some cop’s ass. Have absolutely no doubt about it. I’m going to war tomorrow. On Monday, you could purge me. I don’t give a fuck. I’m out of here. I’m done.” Okay? I went on the Suicide Squad. It was a very poor decision, and it was a very poor decision, not because we had no chance of beating the police. It was a poor decision because while you can be suicidal about yourself, you have no right to bring the wrath of the police on your community. The cops beat people all up and down Fifth Avenue. There was no question about whether you’re a Young Lord, not a Young Lord. If you look Puerto Rican, they’re going to bust your ass. And very rightfully, the people were very angry with us the next day. [00:27:00] And that day changed the relationship of the Young Lords in New York with our community. And I know that is something that we never recovered from, all right? But it also brought some other problems, and it was that all the sudden, there was nobody in the leadership that took responsibility. There was no evaluation afterwards, no criticism, or some criticism. You know, I had been put very rapidly in charge of the Bronx office, and I’d recruited people from that office to join this action, we go do battle, we get our asses kicked. The whole relationship between Young Lords and our community, [00:28:00] people that came by our office every day the day before would not come into our office. They would go across the street the day after. And there was nobody to talk about this to. And it became very difficult in 13 �the Young Lords. I had recruited [Tony Copeland?] into the Young Lords who brought a fella named [Deleone?]. I had recruited a lot of people. I recruited some former gang members from Bachelors into the organization. And, you know, now people were saying -- I couldn’t respond to anybody. What I did not understand is that there was already a process of transition. A lot of things that happened. First of all, in early ’71 the Young Lords engaged in this campaign called [00:29:00] “Ofensiva Rompecadenas,” Break the Chains. And it was a campaign that sent Young Lords from the United States, to Puerto Rico, where we are today. It was also a very [focusing?] idea, because people were sent here that didn’t have a sense of what the political reality was, the social reality, what the economic reality of this place is. They were Puerto Ricans, but you were urban ghetto Puerto Ricans. The children, okay, of the people that had migrated there before, you know, years before. And, um, we didn’t have a sense about what was going on here. [They needed?] the independence of Puerto Rico, but that’s where it ended. I mean, we had no ties to the communities here. None of that. [00:30:00] We came from the community there. And I think it’s really important to understand what Young Lords were. JJ: So, what happened at that time? VA: well, you know, what happened with that was that a lot of human resource and material resources were drained to make that move to Puerto Rico. And then it fell apart in Puerto Rico. And people were abandoned in Puerto Rico. JJ: Abandoned? What do you mean? VA: Abandoned. They were left here, you know? 14 �JJ: So, there was no money paid for the trip. VA: Yeah, and offices were opened up in Aguadilla, in Caño, and then, you know, people here wrote letters to send to committee saying, this is a mistake. We’re not being effective here. We can’t. And they were, you know, dismissed. And people just walked away from the organization. [00:31:00] JJ: They were dismissed? VA: They were irrelevant. But there were other problems also growing. And I think it’s important to understand that, see, unlike Chicago, where the Chicago Young Lords originate in a street gang, New York was a coming together of two groups, actually, one from El Barrio, one college students from Old Westbury. And at one point it was very beautiful because it was really representative of our community. We had gang members, ex-gang members, college students, high school students, some workers in the organization, teachers. But with the [00:32:00] tendency towards intellectualism, there are some people that gravitate to the theoretical studies. And one of the dynamics of the American left, of which we were a part of, was this process of building a new revolutionary communist party. And then there was the infiltration within the Young Lords, [this shift?] that led to certain things being pushed. JJ: What do you mean infiltration? VA: Infiltration, like, you know, we uncovered a number of police agents operating. And some people that were never proven to be agents, I think, I know in my heart were [00:33:00] agents, because they led the organization to destruction. Part of that move was this move to become a party. And in order to do that, everything 15 �that had made the Young Lord successful was shut down. All our community offices were shut down. All the, you know, all the work that we did in the community, the housing work, the anti-police brutality work, you know, the antidrug all that stuff was abandoned, because everybody was supposed to abandon all the work and study Marxism, Leninism, and organize workers in the workplace. And so the incident at the Puerto Rican Day Parade, in retrospect, played right into the hand of that because there was no caring about what had happened with the community. You know, at least none [00:34:00] that I saw. And, you know, the Young Lords were being transformed into this thing called PRRWO. And many people, some good people, got sucked into that. You know, um, I remember real clearly that it was, I believe, late in 1972 or early 1973 that there was a call made for all the Young Lords to report for this conference that we were going to have at the Hunts Point Palace. And I went to report, as instructed. And it was a dance hall, and it had been decorated for this [00:35:00] Young Lords conference. There was a lot of Young Lords in there. And the place was decorated in such a way that you had Marx, Lenin, Engels, and Mao. And one of the brothers got up and says, “You know, I really have no problem with the posters that are here. The problem that I have with the posters that are not here. Where’s Don Pedro? Where’s [Lolita?]? Where’s [Letansas?]?” And it was, in my view, an intellectual takeover of what our movement had been. Now everybody has to study Marx and Mao, Engels, dialectical [00:36:00] materialism, but the thing that had distinguished us was our love for our people and served the people in our communities, that was gone. I went to that 16 �conference, and I called the national, told them to go -- because I used to run the Bronx office at Cyprus Avenue. And [Olgie?] had already been pulled out of there. You know, people had been -- Cleo, she had been sent to Detroit to work with Black Workers Congress, all this movement to get people out of the community and to build this party. You know, they had these meetings with the LLN, with all these other organizations, and all these discussions, [00:37:00] and we got orders to study this, study that. And after that conference, I said to myself, “You know, this is not what I joined. This not what I came to join. I came to join a revolution, but I don’t see it happening here.” And I walked away. In walking away though, I -- you know, and it was also about growing up politically, because I found myself saying, “You know what? I cannot allow people to make political decisions for me. I gotta take political responsibility for myself.” It was no longer about you tell me where to go and I go do it, fuck it. That’s over. I have, you know, I gained some tools to think for myself. And one of the things that I saw was that there was a thing that had been abandoned. [00:38:00] For example, there was a case in New York called the Case of the New York Five, and it was Black Panthers and one Young Lord, accused of bank robberies and killing cops with the Black Liberation Army. And now, with our movement collapsing, it was like we were abounding them; you know? Nobody wanted to talk about this case. The PROs didn’t even want to touch it, because it was not a proletariat struggle, it’s a revolutionary Nationalist struggle. So, I joined with some Black Panthers that was formed, [The Committee to Free the?] the New York Five. And two of the five brothers were Boricuas. One of them was a 17 �member of the Black Panther Party, and the other was his brother’s blood brother, who was in the Young Lords, Gabe Torres and Francisco Torres. So, I began doing that work. And I had hooked up with my [00:39:00] compa-- Mickey Melendez, who was doing the work around the freedom of the Nationalists. And so I continued doing that work, to free up political prisoners. And then I became an independent political activist at that point. I have never stopped. In 19-- I think it was the fall of ’75, I got word that they had kidnapped Richie Pérez. Richie Pérez was one of those people that stood [withdraw?]. And I lost contact with him. But then I heard about his kidnapping and his torture of him and Diana Caballero. And by that time, because he was doing the work around the Nationalist prisoners, Mickey Menendez [00:40:00] and I had come to Puerto Rico and gotten sworn in as members of the Nationalist Party in Puerto Rico. Mickey and I went to a bar here in El Condado to have a couple of drinks that we waited for the time to go to the airport to return back to New York. I never forget this place. It was a basement bar, called [El Barrito?], and we walked in there, and who do we run into? Richie Pérez and Diana Caballero. They were in the darkened corner. When they saw us, they got very paranoid, because they didn’t know who to trust. Since I had been a high school student of Richie’s, I approached him. I said, “Whoa, we ain’t come here to hurt you. It’s just accidental. But here’s my number. When you feel up to, [00:41:00] give me a call.” And about a week later, back in New York, I got a call from Richie, and we reconnected, and we continued. We began doing the work around Nationalists, all of that. We had a meeting of former Young Lords who denounced the 18 �kidnapping and the tortures. The kidnapping and torture was orchestrated by Gloria Fontanez (inaudible). She had, through a series of purges, okay, purged Juan Gonzalez, who used to be her compañero, had purged David, had purged Yoruba Guzman, had purged all the people in the leadership. JJ: All the Central Committee, (inaudible) of the Young Lords. VA: Exactly. And [00:42:00] um, ordered the kidnapping and the torture. JJ: And how did she get that type of following? (inaudible) VA: That’s a very interesting -- because one of the things about her, Gloria Fontanez approaches or hooks up with our movement. She was a hospital clerk in Gouverneur Hospital in the Lower East Side. And because of the work through HRUM, she had become chairwoman of HRUM, and through HRUM, joined the Young Lords. That’s a key question. How did this hospital clerk gain all of this political sophistication and Machiavellian maneuvering and ability? You know, she was a very skillful organizer, but she -- I mean, she has skills that you need to question where they came from. [00:43:00] I say she was a highly trained agent. And she married [Bruce?] Wright, who was another agent. And they took control of the Young Lords when they converted it to PRRWO. JJ: And when she split up from Juan Gonzalez, married this guy (inaudible). VA: Yeah. JJ: And you’re saying that he was an agent. VA: He was an agent, so was she. JJ: On what grounds are you saying this? VA: Because of everything she did, okay, was to destroy the Young Lords. 19 �JJ: What did she do to destroy the Young Lords? VA: She climbed the ladder of leadership -- dismantled the leadership -- JJ: She was able to climb the ladder of leadership from Juan Gonzalez because he was a leader. One way -- one way. VA: It was more than Juan Gonzalez. JJ: Okay, then what other ways? VA: You know, she had the skills that we as a young organization didn’t have. And she presented herself with those skills. JJ: She [00:44:00] was working in the hospital (inaudible). VA: How does the hospital clerk get all this organizing skills? Right? That’s the question. You know. She was very skillful in setting people against each other and dismantling the leadership of the Lords, one at a time, turning everybody first against one, then against the other, and, you know, until she was in complete control. Once she took complete control, then the kidnapping and the torture began. That’s not a mistake of a revolutionary. That’s classic COINTELPRO operation. Same thing that happened in the Black Panther Party. JJ: You’re saying she was trained as an agent. VA: Or she learned these skills from where? [00:45:00] JJ: When you talked to her, when you knew her, she was very skillful. VA: Very skillful, very eloquent, very pretty. JJ: And you’re an organizer, yourself. VA: Yeah. JJ: So, you can see if somebody’s an organizer, really. 20 �VA: Listen, she was my leader when I was in the Young Lords. But she did things that were so authoritarian, like she had the authority to tell you how to run your personal life. And those are things that I began to question very early on in saying myself, this is something wrong here. This woman tells me that I have to tell my compañera to get an abortion because the party is having too many babies. My response was, the party ain’t having no babies. My compañera and I are having a baby, and she ain’t getting an abortion. But that was, [00:46:00] like, you know, if I would have allowed her the authority to follow up on her orders, she would have controlled my life. Then I would have been a puppet of hers, like the puppets she used -- listen, when Richie Pérez was kidnapped and tortured, people who did it were people that he recruited into the Young Lords, that he trained. And then she took over and ordered them to kidnap and torture him. That’s very skilled. JJ: But she was not just a control freak. You think she’s an agent. VA: That’s my belief. And I’ll say it to her face. I’ll tell you, the last time I saw Gloria Fontanez was about three years ago, when [Lori Delagron?] died, and I was in New York, and we organized a memorial for Lori Delagron. And I was in charge of security, [00:47:00] sadly, for her. Because Iris Morales was there and approached, he says, “Look, Gloria’s here.” And I went up to her, says, “Excuse me, I need to talk to you outside.” And then her boyfriend came. “What’s the problem?” I said, “You’re with her? Then you and me gotta go outside, too.” And I took them outside, and I threw them out of the place. JJ: This is Gloria. 21 �VA: Oh, yeah, yeah. JJ: And her boyfriend, too. VA: And her then-boyfriend. JJ: [Wilbert?] Wright? VA: No, no, this is somebody else. She’s been through a hundred boyfriends. That’s the truth. The truth. JJ: Because who was her boyfriend again after González? VA: Her first boyfriend was Juan Gonzalez, and she went to, Don Wright. JJ: Don Wright. VA: Um, so that’s -- JJ: What do you know about Don Wright? What about him? VA: I don’t know anything about Don Wright, because when he came into the scene, I had left the Young Lords. I was doing political work independently. JJ: So, you were -- [00:48:00] VA: Anyway, as far as Young Lords, I would say the following. That in the United States, we have been and sadly to say, there have been other organizations that have risen since and tried to erase the legacy of the Young Lords. The Young Lords have left a lasting legacy for our community. You know, we were very young. We lacked a lot of political insight that, you know -- but we left. I mean, you and I were talking before, for example, about electoral politics. The Young Lords, see, we created a political movement that gave our community a sense of the [00:49:00] power that we had. What we lacked, at least in New York, was the insight about understanding this, this was a long-term struggle, and because we 22 �saw it as an immediate struggle, for example, we never considered electoral politics in New York, but we left the vacuum that was moved into, people, poverty, pimps moved into that, you know, the other (Spanish) [00:49:26] of the world, and you know, the [Napoleons?] on the Lower East Side, people who capitalized on that movement, that sense of empowerment that the Young Lords brought. You know, one of the things I learned in the Young Lords was that their commitment is not to an organization. It’s to [00:50:00] a cause. And, you know, that cause that brought the Young Lords into existence is still very much alive. So, I continue to struggle. JJ: Which is what? (inaudible) VA: Which is the liberation of Puerto Rico, which is the equality, the fulfillment of all of our rights, our human rights, our democratic rights, our civil rights in the United States and anywhere in the world. And you know what, to the creation of a better worlds. In Puerto Rico and outside of Puerto Rico, wherever we go. The Young Lords taught us to live like Che Guevara. JJ: So, after the Young Lords folded (inaudible). VA: Well, [00:51:00] what happened was that we were carrying on the campaign for the freedom of the Nationalists. In 1977, I was the first person arrested and accused of being a member of the FALN. Actually not the first, because David Pérez was arrested in my house. He went to my house, and they arrested him when they were trying to arrest me, and they -- I went into hiding, and I surrendered a week later, um, because they didn’t have anything. They tried to 23 �pin a bombing on me in New York, of the Mobil Oil building. That was on August 8, 1977. JJ: Okay, 1977? VA: Yeah. And so, you know, they dropped charges on David, they kept harassing me. They rearrested me in March of ’78. JJ: But David Pérez was arrested? VA: He was arrested in my house. Yeah, he came knocking on the door, the feds [00:52:00] grabbed him, you know? And they actually put his picture in the papers with my name on it, you know? (laughs) JJ: So, they were actually looking for you. VA: They were looking for me. They raided my house. JJ: (inaudible) a few Young Lords were connected to the (inaudible). VA: Yeah, so then back in ’78, in March of ’78, I was rearrested, spent six months in jail. I went to trial five years later, I was acquitted in 45 minutes, okay? But, you know, the time I spent in jail and all the drama that surrounded that case, again, with accusations of being a member of the FALA. JJ: You were acquitted. VA: I was acquitted by a jury in 45 minutes. They went in there, locked the door, said, “Not guilty,” came back down, go home. You know? Um, [00:53:00] in that process, we freed the Nationalists, the Nationalists were freed in 1978. I was out on bail at the time. JJ: And how did you [feel?]? 24 �VA: Well, there was an international campaign that -- we did a lot of work in our community, educational work, educating people as to who these people were. And for a long time, people are saying, “You guys are crazy, they are never going to be released,” because we’re talking about four people that shot up the Congress of the United States and the fifth who tried to kill President Truman, okay, in the cause of court deliberation of Puerto Rico. And our people kept telling us, “You guys go waste your fucking time, but these guys ain’t never coming home. [00:54:00] Lolita Lebrón and them are going to rot in jail.” But we were able to force the US government, with very strong mobilizations in our community, we took over the Statue of Liberty in 1977, put the flag on its crown, demanding their release, and the support of the Cuban government. JJ: Wait a minute. So, when you took over the Statue of Liberty, you went upstairs, and -- VA: That was a Young Lord action carried out by three ex-members of the young roads, Richie Pérez, Mickey Melendez, and myself. JJ: So, Richie Pérez, Mickey Melendez, and you, yourself? VA: I was not arrested because I was out on bail. I had just gotten out of jail. JJ: What exactly did you (inaudible) talk about that now, if you can. I mean, without getting into any details [of that action?]. VA: What we did was -- JJ: Because if you do that, I’m being an accessory. I don’t want [00:55:00] that. (laughter) 25 �VA: We had been going, over a number of years, going to Washington, demanding the freedom of the Nationalists, the United Nations. And in ’77 that summer, we were in the process of another mobilization to Washington. JJ: Was this meaning a demonstration? VA: A demonstration, yeah, a massive demonstration, taking thousands of people to Washington and demanding the freedom of the Nationals. Um, and, you know, it was like something that had kind of like ran its course. It was beginning to lose energy. So, Richie, Mickey, and I, we were coordinating the committee, and we met. And it was Mickey Melendez who said, “You know what?” I mean -- no, the deal was, I said, “We gotta do an action, a militant action. We gotta take this to the next level.” [00:56:00] Now remember, already, the FALN was putting, you know, armed actions, you know, armed propaganda actions in Chicago, in New York, in Washington, wherever. But we said, we need to now collaborate with this effort by a militant mass movement action. And Mickey says, “Statue of Liberty.” Right? So, we took turns going to case the place, you know, like one day, Mickey went, another time Richie went, another time I went, and to assess it, you know, how it operated, lay of the land, how many guards, all of that stuff. JJ: And you were kind of planning, it was just a protest, basically. VA: Sure. Whatever you say. [00:57:00] JJ: (laughter) VA: Then what we did was that each one of us took on the responsibility of developing a list of activists who he trusted, okay? And who had to trust us, 26 �because we agreed not to tell anybody what we were going to do. The only three people that knew was Richie, Mickey, and I. JJ: And this case is closed, right? VA: This case is closed. And we would check with each other of our list. You know such person? What do you think? Is he trustworthy? Yeah. Should they be approached? And we, one on one, approached the individuals that got arrested there, and asked them to make a commitment to get arrested for the freedom of the Nationalists, without knowing what they were going to do. [00:58:00] So, once we had a -- you know, we prepared, we planned, everything was done, we told people, the three teams, each one of us led a different team at different parts of city, like the people that I had on my list, meet me down in Times Square at seven o’clock in the morning. Then somebody else met in Queens, you know, like that. And we converged in Battery Park in New York City. JJ: (inaudible) VA: Battery Park is in the tip of Manhattan, across from the Statue of Liberty. And everybody got on the boat except me, [Yana Pérez Gallejero?], and a third person, [Cesar Torres?]. I was in charge because I was already on bail. Like, we had a big fight about that, like, “I’m going in there,” they say, “No, you’re not.” I said, “Yes, I am.” [00:59:00] And they overruled. They didn’t allow me to get arrested, because if I would have gotten arrested again, I would have never gotten out of jail, you know? So, Richie and Mickey led the group of people, they got on the first ferry onto the Statue of Liberty Island, and then ran and got into the Statue of liberty to prevent the other tourists on the boat to get in, so there 27 �wouldn’t be a problem of kidnapping or any of that crap, right? And they shut down the island. They took it over. You’ve gotta remember, back then, there weren’t cellular phones available to us, okay? So, we already gotten the telephone numbers to all the public phones in the Battery Park area. We took control of the phones. The thing that got interesting was that we had assessed that the arrest was going to happen pretty soon after the takeover, because there were -- [01:00:00] you know, they were going to come in and get people arrested. What we did not count on was the fact that the police, in fact, were fighting among themselves. The NYPD was fighting with the FBI and the US Parks Department police who had jurisdiction. So, this thing started dragging on for hours and hours. They shut the power off in the Statue of Liberty; they shut off the water. We hadn’t counted on that, okay? We should have planned for that possibility, but we never did, frankly. So, it was very funny, because since I was the person in charge outside, I called the person that controlled our bank account, said, “Take out all the money in the bank and find me a helicopter. I’m going to rent a helicopter do a food drop on the ledge of the Statue of Liberty.” And then Yoruba Guzman was a reporter for Channel Five News [01:01:00]. We’re in the middle of shopping. I got people shopping, he comes and tells us that the feds just banned any flights 10,000 -- around the Statue of Liberty. So, we killed that idea, you know? Anyway, the people were out there without water, food, cigarettes, were dying, going nuts, until late that evening, when they finally settled their fight and then went in and arrested everybody. JJ: What happened to the people that were arrested? 28 �VA: People who were arrested were taken to court -- JJ: Who were some of the people that got arrested? VA: Mickey Melendez, Richie Pérez, [Madeline Gonzalez?], a number of activists, okay? Twenty-seven people, I think, were actually arrested. Yuri Kochiyama, you know, people that we knew and trusted and trusted us. Because, you know, (inaudible) I don’t know what you’re playing, what are [01:02:00] you dragging me into, but I’m gonna go do it. You know, these people did, and, um, it was very successful, because we never -- we were concerned that we will be able to hold the Statue of Liberty long enough for the New York press to be able to cover, right? What happened was this thing was so long, this became the front-page story around the world. I’m talking about we got paper clippings from Belgium, from Russia, from China, from England, from France, everywhere. It’s a beautiful picture of the Puerto Rican flag draped over the crown of the Statue of Liberty. Um, eventually, people were released, and after making a statement in the court, we paid a fine. Interestingly enough, some of those people, like the MLN, [01:03:00] okay, who have been a Marxist-Leninist organization, in discussions with the PRRWO, and who was now pretending to be the sole movement, denounced the action. They didn’t like it because they weren’t in control of it. It was, frankly, another moment that I’m really proud of. It was a Young Lords action that was planned by Young Lords, even though we were no longer an organization in New York. We continued, and 1981, we founded the National Congress of Puerto Rican Rights, almost a year traveling around the country to different -- 29 �JJ: How did that (inaudible)? VA: [Mecca?] was part of that, (inaudible). We went to Chicago, we went to Connecticut, went to Pennsylvania, you know, all the areas of high concentration. [01:04:00] JJ: Who was (inaudible)? VA: Okay, actually, that idea was put -- came from Juan Gonzalez, our former Minister of Defense. He had been purged from the Young Lords, was living in Philadelphia, and was active in local community work in Philadelphia. JJ: He was purged from PRRWO, right? VA: From PRRWO, right. JJ: Not really the Young Lords. The Young Lords had turned, changed into -- VA: Exactly. JJ: So, now this is the national what? VA: The National Congress of Puerto Rican Rights? And that had been as the result of -- I mean, there’s some of the things that is more important to mention here. In 1975, there was a big rally in New York City at Madison Square Garden for the independence of Puerto Rico. JJ: I recall that. VA: It was something that was pushed by the by the Puerto Rican Socialist Party. JJ: (inaudible) [01:05:00] VA: Exactly, Mecca had joined the PSP, all of that. And I think it was probably the last hurrah in a lot of ways, of the mass movement as based in New York. Things had begun to rapidly fall apart. Young Lords were dead, (inaudible) 30 �JJ: What year was this? VA: Seventy-five. JJ: And actually, Chicago had the campaigns (inaudible). But publicity wasn’t coming out. VA: Right. That day, the day of the rally at Madison Square Garden, was also the first day that the FALN took mili-- did the bombing. JJ: A militant stand, yeah. VA: Okay, in support of Puerto Rican independence and defending the freedom of the Nationalists. I think that all of that changed the character of our movement in New York. [01:06:00] So, then we went to the campaign for the freedom of the Nationalists. And like I said, it was a lot of efforts, from petitions to the Cuban government, put all that energy and all that strategy together that got the release of the Nationalist prisoners in 1978. But our movement was pretty decimated by then. You know, the PSP falling apart, the Young Lords didn’t exist. JJ: Why do you think this fell apart? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) VA: Because COINTELPRO was a major -- the Counterintelligence Program by the federal government, had created all these divisions in the organizations. JJ: So, one of the things they were doing, you’re saying, [01:07:00] was divisions, creating internal divisions. VA: And destroying organizations. I mean, the way that the Young Lords were destroyed. 31 �JJ: And I mean, like, for example, you’re in the Central Committee of the Young Lords of New York, a strong regional chapter of an organization, right? And the entire central committee is being purged. VA: Decimated, yeah. JJ: Is being purged by new people that come out of nowhere. VA: But it’s not just the purging of the leadership. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) VA: Understand that the strategy was to develop the kind of politics that justify us cutting ties with our own community. How sick is that? JJ: But that’s another -- exactly, that’s one of the strategies. (inaudible) VA: And I think, in retrospect -- again, I can’t prove this, but that plan -- JJ: (inaudible) VA: -- the plan to take over the front of the Puerto Rican Day Parade, somebody with political astuteness [01:08:00] planned that shit out, because that was a part of our department. That was a part of our destruction. JJ: I don’t understand, the Puerto Rican parade? VA: Listen to me. You’re a revolutionary organization. You study urban guerrilla warfare tactics. Who comes up with the idea to take on a larger police department, 35,000-person police department, well-armed, a superior force, taking them head on? JJ: So, they created a riot. VA: Yeah. And who lost? The Puerto Rican people lost. Who lost the Young Lords lost. Okay? We broke, we lost our ties with our community. People that loved 32 �us the day before resented us the day after. That was politically planned. Somebody. I’m not saying that all of the leadership planned it that way, but somebody knew what they were doing. JJ: Well, it is very clear that COINTELPRO [01:09:00] would infiltrate and create riots. I mean, they had agents who (inaudible) to create riots. So, here’s a good example of a riot, (inaudible) Young Lords of New York were involved in. VA: It’s a piece of history that people do not want to talk about. JJ: I understand (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) VA: Let me say this, okay, for the record. There is one documentary -- there’s two documentaries about the Young Lords that I know of, El Pueblo Se Levanta and Palante Siempre Palante! Neither one of them mention the Puerto Rican Day Parade. We need to study the history of the Young Lords. We need to study that history. JJ: And what year was that? VA: Nineteen seventy-one. June. Second Sunday of June of 1971. JJ: And this was a strategy to try to take over the Puerto Rican Day Parade. And [01:10:00] they created a riot. VA: Listen to me. The Young Lords initiated this call, and the whole movement bought into it. At the end of the day, the ones they got blamed was just the Young Lords. And our relationship with our community was never the same. Now, somebody’s responsible for that. 33 �JJ: But another situation is, I mean, there’s been ups and downs in any movement. So, they could have picked back up again, the Young Lords, but they were not doing any door-to-door work. VA: Cha-cha, listen to what I’m saying to you. This strategy around the Puerto Rican Day Parade is implemented at a time in which the Young Lords have an overall plan to convert to PRRWO and to close ties. All is working together. JJ: Exactly. So, that was a (inaudible), don’t you think, or what do you think? VA: I’m saying that this is all part of a strategy to destroy the Young Lords. It all worked together to the same goal. [01:11:00] JJ: It takes me a little while to comprehend, but I see what you’re saying. So, the whole strategy is to get to an ideology, is to get an ideology that’s divorced you from the masses. VA: Sure. JJ: (inaudible) VA: Sure, what was left of the Puerto Rican Day Parade, we closed down the offices anyway, so there was no relationship. What was left was a group of people intellectualizing revolution or pretending or trying to intellectualize revolution. You know? The struggle between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks and all that other craziness, that was totally irrelevant to the life of our people. The reason the Young Lords were [01:12:00] successful because we were the pulse of our people. When we stopped doing that, it was over. JJ: That’s really good, the pulse of our people. To you, what does that mean? 34 �VA: That means that we live amongst our people, we struggle with our people, we listen to our people, we respect and love them and earn the right to lead them. Not proclaim the right to lead them, earn the right to lead them. Because we are them. We don’t come from outer space to lead them. We come from them. JJ: And what other (inaudible)? VA: No, bro, listen. We’re still not free. We’re still a colony. Colonialism is the enslavement of a nation. What you see here is a beautiful nation enslaved to the United States. And when you leave El Condado and Isla Verde [01:13:00] in Puerto Rico, you find a nation being destroyed, being done away with. We have to liberate Puerto Rico, because if we do not, Puerto Ricans will be a footnote in history. “There was a people called Puerto Rican,” it’ll be no more. The governor of Puerto Rico pushing to make Puerto Rico the 51st state, talking about a plebiscite, and they got people scared to death, that Puerto Rico was starved to death if the United States is not feeding us. It’s not feeding us; it’s ripping us apart. But the myth, the belief, this country right now is being decimated, is being dismantled, [01:14:00] and being given to the corporations. The people in this country right now, you have a crime epidemic in Puerto Rico unlike anything I’ve ever seen here before. You have a drug and alcohol epidemic. It’s the only nation in the Caribbean where the main form of drug use is not smoking a little marijuana, but it’s intravenous heroin addiction in Puerto Rico, in the year 2002. This is the great result of the experiment with the United States. This is what we have left. 35 �JJ: Since you’ve been living here for a year and a half, what is the perspective that you see here? (inaudible) in terms of being colonized. VA: I’ll give [01:15:00] you an example of how much work we need to do here. Right now, we are on the beach of Loiza Aldea. Loiza Aldea is a Black township, okay? [Una?] Aldea is ex (Spanish) [01:15:21], a village of ex-slaves that were not allowed to live in San Juan, so they created this village. It’s one of the strong points of support for Luis Fortuño and the pro-statehood party. This is the same Luis Fortuño that leaves Puerto Rico, goes to the United States to give speeches at the John Birch Society. Now, how crazy could it possibly be? [01:16:00] A Black township supporting a guy who goes speak -- is a guest speaker at a white supremacist organization, my God. That’s how disconnected, okay, the politics are here. They just brought the third police commissioner under Fortuño’s term, okay, and the guy is a retired head of the FBI in Miami, Florida, with strong ties to the right-wing Cuban movement in Miami, Florida, who has been involved in assassinations in Latin America. That’s who they brought to run the police department in Puerto Rico. Has to tell us something. [01:17:00] You have a country where the marketing has made it where people look forward to eating Burger King and McDonald’s, food that kills people, when you have the quenepas falling off the trees and rotting, and the mangoes and the pineapples falling off the trees and rotting, because they destroyed the agriculture and we no longer have the know-how, how to raise our own food. This is to do away with the people and a nation in the year 2012. It is, I think, very important to understand that Puerto Rico has undergone [01:18:00] the most sophisticated 36 �form of colonialism in the history of humanity. And what do I mean by that? Very simply, that they have refined the ability of colonial control. And be real clear, they will kill anybody. Be real clear, they will kill. They assassinated Filiberto Ojeda Ríos, on Grito de Lares, 2005. But they have developed the ability to control -JJ: Who is (inaudible)? VA: Let me finish saying this first. They have developed the [01:19:00] science of controlling a people. If they lose the control, they will assassinate them. Filiberto Ojeda Ríos was el comandante of Los Macheteros. He was assassinated by the FBI on September 23, 2005, on the day where the Puerto Rican people celebrate their cry for independence, on Grito de Lares. The FBI surrounded his home, shot him, and then left him for over 24 hours bleeding to death, refusing to give him medical, okay? Um, it was a cowardly -- one of many cowardly acts of by the FBI in this country. JJ: And this was a team that came from Atlanta? VA: They came from the United States, like over 100 FBI agents came for that [01:20:00] operation. What they don’t understand is (Spanish) [01:20:07]. That’s what they don’t understand, because you can’t kill Filiberto Ojeda Ríos. You cannot kill Don Pedro (inaudible). Like they couldn’t kill (inaudible). Any other questions? (laughs) END OF VIDEO FILE 37 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6d33fadd6d99e3d3133650b4849f616b.mp4 50b81a8a4ebf20e006053e9df53087e8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Vicente “Panama” Alba vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Descripción Spanish language Description entry Vicente “Panamá” Alba es un Young Lord quien nació en Panamá, migro a la ciudad de Nueva York en 1961 y ahora vive en Puerto Rico. El a trabajado por muchos años con la organización Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) de AFL/CIO, quien defiende los trabajadores inmigrantes y los indocumentaditos en los industriosas de recicla y las eliminación de los desechos. Durante la rebelión de Attica, (Septiembre 9, 1971) Señor Alba soportó reclusos en sus negaciones. Señor Alaba ha sido parte de dos tomadas de la Estatua de Libertad, la primera es plantando la bandera de Puerto Rico en la Estatua en parte de una campaña para libertar los Nacionalistas Puertorriqueños que fueron encarcelados y el segundo fue en soportar la lucha de la gente de Vieques. Un ferviente admirador de Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Señor Alba continua abogar por autodeterminación por Puerto Rico y a sido parte de los Nacionalistas y otros grupos, incluyendo unas organizaciones en la comunidad que hacen campañas para libertar los prisioneros de política, uno siendo Oscar López. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Panamañians--Relatos personales Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Alba_Vicente_1 Title A name given to the resource Vicente “Panama” Alba video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alba, Vicente Description An account of the resource Vicente “Panama” Alba is a Young Lord who was born in Panama, immigrated to New York City in 1961, and now lives in Puerto Rico. He worked many years as an organizer with Local 108 (L.I.U.N.A.) of the AFL/CIO, advocating for immigrant and undocumented workers in the solid waste and recycling industry. During the Attica Rebellion, September 9, 1971, he supported the inmates in their negotiations. Mr. Alba has been involved in two takeovers of the Statue of Liberty, first supporting the occupation and the planting of the Puerto Rican flag on the Statue as part of a campaign to free the Puerto Rican Nationalist prisoners and the second in support of the struggle of the people of Vieques. A fervent admirer of Ernesto “Che” Guevara, Mr. Alba continues to advocate for self- determination for Puerto Rico and has been involved with the Nationalists and other parties, including several community organizing campaigns to free political prisoners, including Oscar López. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Panamanians--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb2685cf74a33a81e19017bb9798742c.pdf bc05edb429957620a7884f6c37759b53 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Howard Alan Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/22/2012 Biography and Description Howard Alan is an architect who specializes in organic architecture, passive and active solar and alternative energy conservation. He grew up in Chicago and first learned architecture in high school before going on to attend the School of Architecture at the University of Southern California. In 1969, Mr. Alan invited and brought the world renowned architect, Buckminster Fuller, to the People’s Church to meet with Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the Young Lords. The Young Lords and the Poor People’s Coalition of Lincoln Park (which Mr. Jiménez was also their president) hired Mr. Alan to draw up plans for a multi-unit, affordable housing complex, as a concrete cooperative alternative to Daley’s Master Plan; a plan which was displacing Latinos and the poor from across Chicago’s near-downtown and lakefront neighborhoods. Mr. Alan’s plans were supported by and presented to a broad group of businesses and community organizations, including the former head of the Department of Urban Renewal, Mr. Ira Bach. However, in a packed and tumultuous housing committee meeting of the City Council, Mr. Alan’s plans were rejected. In this oral history interview, Mr. Alan reflects on the Young Lord’s and Mr. Jiménez’s commitment to the poor and why this was such a controversial stance.Today, Mr. Alan’s office remains in Lincoln Park, on Armitage Avenue. His award-winning, innovative, and sustainable designs can be seen all over Chicago and beyond. He regularly gives talks around the country on topics related to sustainable and organic architecture. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Howard, if you can give me your name -- full name -- and then give me date of birth and where you were born. HOWARD ALAN: All right. My name is Howard Alan. I was born in the city of Chicago on the South Side. JJ: Which part of the South Side? HA: I’m not sure I know what it’s called, but -- JJ: Which streets? HA: Somewhere around Carpenter Street and maybe 6300 South. JJ: 6300 South. HA: Yeah, my grandfather owned a two-level [frame?] building, and the earliest I can remember is that’s where I was born and lived until I was close to five. JJ: [00:01:00] Okay, [now, I was walkin’ around?]. So, you were born here in Chicago. HA: I am born in Chicago. JJ: And you said what year again? I’m sorry. HA: I didn’t. JJ: I was walkin’ around. HA: I am born in Chicago in the year 1931. JJ: ’31? Okay. HA: July 7 is my lucky birthday. JJ: And you’ve never left Chicago. 1 �HA: Oh, that’s not true. JJ: That’s not true? Okay. HA: I stayed in Chicago until I graduated high school and went to Los Angeles. JJ: And so, you went to which grammar school? HA: In Chicago, I went to several grammar schools, but the one that I spent the most time was Kozminski on the South Side, 5400 South Ingleside. JJ: Okay. That’s -- HA: And I -- JJ: That’s the East Side, isn’t it? HA: Hmm? JJ: That’s the East. Ingleside? Or is that West? HA: It’s East. JJ: [00:02:00] East, okay. HA: It was a good school, and, when I graduated -- that’s grammar school. JJ: Was it Hyde Park, or --? HA: I went to Hyde Park -- JJ: Okay, [that was?] Hyde Park High School. HA: -- after that. Hyde Park High School, where I was fortunate to have three years of high school architecture classes, and, by the time I was 15, I’d already determined that’s what I wanted to be. I never had another thought about where I was going. JJ: I mean, what brought you to that thinking? Were you parents involved with that, or...? 2 �HA: Well, no. My parents were not involved, except that my mother -- JJ: Your mother’s name is what? HA: Her name is [Betty Banks?]. That was her maiden name, and [00:03:00] her married name -- well, she had several marriages, so we can skip that. JJ: Okay. Your father’s name? HA: My father’s name is [Murray?]. He was born [Morris?], and his last name is [Spiegel?]. But my folks were divorced when I was 10. JJ: Ten, okay. HA: Some people say 12, but I think 10. So -- JJ: Any brothers or sisters? HA: I’m an only child. JJ: Okay. Now, they grew up also in Chicago, your parents, or no? HA: No. My father is Canadian, came to the United States during the Depression or a little bit before the Depression. I think he was about 16 when he came, and he came to make his way [00:04:00] with his older brother. And -- JJ: And your mom? HA: My mother came with six others from Poland. She came from probably a Polish shtetl, if you know what a shtetl is. JJ: No. Can you explain what that is? HA: It’s an area in Poland, which had a whole flock of rules against the Jews, and they had their own area called a shtetl, which was mixed with buildings to live in, and shops, and stores, and they had their own legal system as well. And so, I’m told that my mother came from a shtetl and from a farm, but my grandfather 3 �[00:05:00] came first, and he came to the South Side, and he was -- he made shoes, and he set himself up until he had enough of a environment and a steady bit of work, and then he brought all his kids over. Seven kids, all together. JJ: And so, they came around what years, did they [move?]? HA: Oh, gee. JJ: This was way before you were born, or...? HA: Way before I was born. JJ: Early 1900s or something like that? HA: No, I’m sure it was after 1900, but they were -- I know my -- I think they were here some time -- I don’t know the dates. JJ: Okay. No, [that’s fine?]. HA: I really don’t know the dates. JJ: [Just a idea?]. HA: As far as I was concerned, I needed something to [00:06:00] give me a direction, and, when it was architecture, that was what I wanted. I was always making things in between playing baseball, and football, and all that stuff you did on the South Side. But it was the doing which I loved the most. So, I -- JJ: Were your friends, any friends in school, into architecture, or no? HA: None of my early friends would -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: -- dream of going into architecture. No, no. They were -- JJ: (inaudible)? HA: Hmm? 4 �JJ: I mean -- HA: Was there a group of people that I was involved in? What do you mean? JJ: Right? Why would, all of a sudden, you think about architecture? You know, people think about baseball or -- like, you did play baseball and football. HA: I played lots of sports. JJ: Lots of sports. HA: I was very -- I climbed every tree in Washington Park, [00:07:00] and, sure, I did do those things, but there was something about me that recognized that there was more in life, and it had to do with the fact that I could do things myself. I could build things. I could -- JJ: What sort of things were you building? HA: Oh, I had an Erector Set, and I threw away the plans, and I made what I wanted to make with it, and that kind of thing. JJ: [What kind of set?]? HA: An Erector Set. Erector Set was very popular in the late ’30s. JJ: Okay. What is that? HA: It was a box of beams, and columns, and screws, and things you wound up, and I was forever making things with it. JJ: Okay. I got you. I got you. HA: And then, [00:08:00] Frank Lloyd Wright’s son, who was responsible for the Lincoln Logs that were sold at -- JJ: Those I remember. HA: -- Marshall Field’s. 5 �JJ: Right, those I remember. HA: I played a lot with that, but I played with everything. I made model airplanes. You know, I learned how to whistle. I did all kinds of things back then. And, when I graduated from -- JJ: So, then, you went to Hyde Park High School? HA: Yes, I went to Hyde Park High School and was really fortunate to have -- JJ: Was that a mixed school at that time, or --? HA: Mixed? JJ: Yeah. (overlapping dialogue). HA: Human beings and doggies? JJ: Well, [human beings?]. I mean in terms of ethnic -- HA: Ethnic? I think there were probably three Blacks in the school at the time. I’m not certain -- JJ: Can you --? HA: -- but I think that’s -- there were very few -- most everybody was light-colored. [00:09:00] But the teacher I had was wonderful. He came just when I was entering the school, and, after the first semester, I got him as a teacher in the architecture class -- JJ: What’s his name? [Do you?] remember? HA: His name is [Napieralski?], and he was a graduate of the architecture department at University of Illinois in Champaign, and, of course, it was the Depression when he graduated, and there was no work, so he became a teacher. But, before him, there was another teacher who turned out to be kind of an alcoholic and would 6 �go down into the boiler room and drink with the building [00:10:00] superintendent or building fixer-upper. And he was teaching architecture with shades and shadows on Roman and Greek facades. But, when I took the first class of Napieralski, he didn’t do that. He gave us buildings to design, and render, and make kindergarten working drawings out of, and -- so, for three years, we did that. There were four of us that were really focused on it and felt serious about it. JJ: And this was at the university? HA: No, no. JJ: [No, it was at the high school?]. HA: This is at Hyde Park High School. JJ: High school, okay. HA: We were making our drawings, and we [00:11:00] were holding things out of the window to make blueprints because the sun would work on the chemicals and would produce a blue print, which was white on blue. JJ: So, who were the designers that you were studying at that time? The architectural designers. HA: Well, the only people I knew of were Frank Lloyd Wright, and I don’t think I even knew of Sullivan or Adler from those days. But, when I left Chicago, I went to Los Angeles, and I went thinking that, somehow or other, my father would help me get through college, but he didn’t. He couldn’t. So, I went to work for architects. JJ: So, where did you live in Los Angeles? Where were you living there? 7 �HA: What happened was [00:12:00] I got my first job with an architect two blocks away from where I was living, and I did shop drawings for all the metal in the twostory building, and they couldn’t believe I could do it, but this was all extremely simple to me. JJ: What part of Los Angeles? What part? HA: It was in the Leimert Park area. JJ: Leimert Park. Okay. HA: Which is now all Black now and has been Black for 50 years or so. JJ: So, you said you were doing some drawings. HA: I would do construction drawings that would be the shop drawings of detailing every steel item in the building, which would then -- you had to do each one and make it clear. That was my first job. JJ: And that was given to the [00:13:00] contractor, or...? HA: Yes, that was given to the contractor to construct the building or to bid the costs. And so, I worked for that guy, whose name was H.W. Underhill. JJ: Okay. So, the contractor w-- how long did you work in there? HA: Oh, probably not more than four months because he gave me another job, and I designed it, and they got a price for it, and he was outraged at how much it was costing, so I wasn’t there anymore. JJ: Okay. So, it was too costly or something? HA: Well, yeah. JJ: The other bids were going through, though, right? With the contractors? HA: Yes, sure. 8 �JJ: So, you had a lot of -- HA: I didn’t design the building. I just took the metal parts out and individually made them clear so that people knew, you know, where the [holes?] were going, how long the pieces were, what [00:14:00] type pieces they were. Yeah. JJ: But those were being used by contractors. HA: Of course. JJ: Okay. HA: Yes. JJ: And there were many of those. HA: Yes, there were many. There were [heaps?] of it. JJ: Okay. All right. But then, you got the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: Then, they asked me to do some kind of a small design of a house. And so, I did it, and it turned out to be too expensive, and we parted ways. That’s all. But what actually happened was I began to get very -- even more serious. I found an apartment. Oh, I went through a whole series of strange things. I joined a fraternity because I didn’t know anybody there. And then, I found out about the fraternity, and I got fed up with it. And so, I did not last in that fraternity. It was too much baloney. [00:15:00] To me, it was baloney, but, you know, it was social, and it was -- this is the way you make friends, and this is your business friends, and so on. I was interested in being a creative person and working, and it just -- that’s how it all started. So -- JJ: What year was this? HA: That was 1950. 9 �JJ: 1950, okay. HA: And so, I began reading, and I began reading a great deal. JJ: What were you reading? HA: Well, one book I read was Kindergarten Chats by Louis Henry Sullivan, which was something that I was extremely influenced by back then. JJ: What was that about, [00:16:00] Kindergarten Chats? HA: That was about architecture, and honesty, and what organic architecture meant. Those are things which I was interested in. JJ: What is organic architecture? What is that? I mean, (inaudible). HA: Well, it’s very difficult to kind of define it, but what it really means is that it is a whole design. It’s not just an image that you’re gonna build. It’s the design, what it’s made out of, and the wholeness of it. That’s my way of speaking about it. It can be called a design where you don’t do anything that doesn’t belong in your thinking when you begin to design it, and [00:17:00] it takes -- it considers every aspect of it. Where the building is, who’s gonna be in it, what the materials ought to be, what kind of environment, which then relates to how the environment informs and supports the people in it. It’s alive. It’s a nice way of saying it, that we’re building buildings that are alive. The new word these days is biophilic, and we’ve discovered, suddenly, as if we didn’t know it already, that buildings that include nature and the organic aspect of it speaks to nature, speaks of nature. We are connected to nature, and I didn’t realize all [00:18:00] of that when I first started reading, but it seemed to be important to me. So, I got myself in the 10 �University of Southern California while I was working part-time and, in summers, full-time, and I, for some unknown connection, met wonderful architects. JJ: Who were some of them? HA: Well, the first one that I -- the only architect I could actually take my work, the work that I did at USC -- I went right through the third-year design, and I was having trouble because I was naive, I suppose, and I was under the impression that I could design the way I wanted to design in school because you weren’t hurting anybody. And so, I would take the classes in the first semester [00:19:00] of third year and answer the requirements without having a concern. The architect that I knew that I was extremely influenced by was a man named John Lautner, and Lautner was in the first fellowship of Frank Lloyd Wright’s back in the ’30s, when he and Olgivanna opened up their fellowship. So, Lautner was there, amongst a number of other people who are now -- who are actually well known. I have books from those people as well, but Lautner was the only person who would sit with me and talk to me about the work that I did, [00:20:00] and I would march up just above Hollywood Boulevard to where he was working out of his garage, and he would take the time to talk, and it was very important to me because I couldn’t get a response from my third-year professor because he was a nutcase as far as I was concerned. And a lot of that happened after the Second World War, and people who were in it and found themselves teaching instead of doing were not very open. They took the academic approach, which was you have to do this in my class. So, I didn’t know that. What it was was -[00:21:00] I discovered that I didn’t do what I was supposed to do. And so, he 11 �wouldn’t grade my work, which frustrated me no end after I looked at the sheets posted on the board for the grade I got ’cause I worked my tail of doin’ that stuff. And then, I went up to the teacher, and I don’t know why this is important, but -JJ: (inaudible). HA: I said, “What’s going on? Why don’t I have a grade?” And he said, “Well, you didn’t do the final drawings,” and I said, “Yes, I did.” And he said, “All right.” I’ll go back to his office, and we opened up the boards that -- I had three boards, which separated all the sketches, and then the final drawings were between the last two boards. And we opened it up, and there they were, and he said, “Oh, I didn’t see those.” Bullshit. Anyway, [00:22:00] he said, “You can go on to the next semester.” That is the second half of the third year. “And, if you do what we want you to do, well, you can go on to the fourth year.” There were two of us like that, and I was a good friend -- we were both friends too. Well, I got very... JJ: Frustrated? HA: No, I got angry. I got very angry, and I said -- you know, and I kept growing in this other organic attitude, and I said, “I’m gonna explore that.” I’m not going to do just -- supposed to be architecture like they wanted it. I’m gonna look for things that make good sense to me, and I’m not hurting a soul. I’m [00:23:00] just finding out -- I thought that’s what school was about. Well, I did that for the second semester, and he told me at that time, “I’m going to give you an N.” Of course, there was no such grade as an N. And so, it meant not evaluable. And I turned in all my work, and I quit. It was bad because I had -- JJ: This was your third year? 12 �HA: Yeah. At the end of the third year, and I had -- I didn’t have -- what’s the word? I don’t know what the word is. The word is -- I had a way not to have to go into the service because of the war, the Korean War, but I [00:24:00] decided I would go to work for Lautner, and I wanted to work in the field and work with my hands too, as well as my imagination and sensibility. JJ: So, you started working with him at that time? HA: No. I went up there, and I met two people, and one was -- well, one was a student in the fellowship, Wright’s fellowship, and he was working with Lautner, and the other one was Herb Greene, who did the most wonderful drawings. He is really a talented guy. JJ: Now, you mentioned fellowship. You mean the group that -- HA: The fellowship was Wright’s group. JJ: [Wright’s group?]. HA: Frank Lloyd Wright’s group was considered a fellowship and was a [00:25:00] draw right through the war, the second war, and a lot of his people had to go in the Army or went into the service. JJ: Now, I did hear his name, but I don’t know that much about architecture. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: Yes, Frank Lloyd Wright is extremely well known. There’s a postage stamp with him. JJ: [I see. I’m sorry?]. HA: While he was alive, he was a very independent, creative architect who did things that nobody ever saw before, in Oak Park, actually, at the beginning, in 1906 or 13 �’04 [and ’06?] and beyond. He built his own studio and house and carried on in his way, and he built [00:26:00] many buildings in Oak Park, all of which were much different than the usual stuff, and I -JJ: Oak Park, Illinois? HA: Huh? JJ: Oak Park, Illinois? HA: Uh-huh. JJ: Okay. HA: Yeah. He’s actually from Wisconsin. He was born in Wisconsin. He had a couple of years of school at [then Madison?], mostly engineering, I think, and -but he was determined. His mother had put pictures of Gothic cathedrals around his room when he was born to be an architect. JJ: So, now you’re in the fellowship with -- HA: Hmm? JJ: You’re at the fellowship with him? HA: I was never at the fellowship with him. I did not go to the fellowship -- JJ: But these other people were part of the fellowship? HA: -- because everybody usually -- he wasn’t an easy guy to get to -- [00:27:00] he wasn’t -- there were only a few people who got out of that fellowship that really had their own ideas, and one of them was Lautner because Lautner had helped his dad and his mom build a house in Michigan. Yeah, in Michigan. And he was used to the understanding of how to build things, and he invented for the rest of his life. Really for the rest of his life. Well, what happened to me after I left USC 14 �and when I met Alvin Wiehle -- he told me that he was going up to San Francisco, and he and a friend of his -- also a Frank Lloyd Wright fellowship member -- [00:28:00] were going to build a wooden spiral house in Mill Valley, California. He said, “Why don’t you come up and help us build it?” And I thought, shucks, that’s what I’m looking for. So, I -JJ: Spiral in the middle of it, or...? HA: No, a spiral house. A house where the walls went around like this. JJ: Oh, okay. Okay. HA: And so, that really excited me, so I sold what little I had, and I got out of my little, one-room apartment with a kitchen and a bathroom -- a kitchen in a closet -- and it was -- I went. And, in some way -- I can’t remember the other guy’s name. He had access to a house on the highest foothill in [00:29:00] Mount Tamalpais, just above one of the small areas there. No, I can’t remember. I know the name of that area like the back of my hand. I can’t think of it. Well, so, we went up there, and that’s where I stayed. That was at the beginning of the summer of 1952. I stayed up there, and Alvin was up there for one night, and he decided to go down to his friend’s place in Richardson Bay. And so, I had this house. I didn’t know who owned it. It had electricity. I could cook. And then, what happened once we started building that [00:30:00] building and the other guy -- I don’t know why I can’t remember his name. The other guy fell ill. And so, construction stopped, and I went into San Francisco to get a job, and I found Charles Warren Callister, who had a small office in San Francisco, just adjacent to Chinatown. And then, I met him, and I told him what I wanted, and -- oh, I never told you either, before 15 �that, by the time I was 19 and when I was in that fraternity, one of the fraternity friends’ father wanted to build a plumbing supply warehouse and sales office. And so, they asked me if I would make the plans, [00:31:00] and I said, “Certainly.” And so, I made the plans and got him the building permit because you didn’t need to be an architect when the cost of the project was under a certain amount. So, that was my first job, and that building was built, and I would go down there and try to supervise it, this 19-year-old kid trying to supervise it and telling people, “You’re building it wrong.” And they would look at me and say, “That’s the way we do it.” Anyway, I was totally happy that it was built because it gave me a foundation. That all happened before I went off to San Francisco, and -JJ: Now, who was this person in San Francisco? HA: Charles Warren Callister? JJ: Yeah. HA: He was an architect. He was an architect, and [00:32:00] he wasn’t licensed, and he refused to take the exam because he thought it was illegal, and he never did take the exam. I think, by the time he got to be 75, they gave him a license. JJ: Now, [there are a lot of?] construction people that don’t have licenses either. HA: Oh, yeah. Construction people, yes. JJ: Yeah. So, was that common, or --? HA: Yeah, that’s common. JJ: But not the architect? 16 �HA: Yeah, you don’t have to have a license to be a contractor. You have to pay the city or whatever you do, and, to my knowledge, there’s no -- well, there used to be a test. JJ: Well, I think, now, they’re [turning to that?]. HA: Well, everything is getting more and more regulated by, you know, by the city system and by our government. Totally regulated. Regulated to the point where, if you think about something, they’ll put you in jail. JJ: Just for thinking about it. HA: [00:33:00] Bad news. JJ: So, now, you’re going to work with -- HA: So, I went to work for Callister that summer, and I worked for 15 dollars a week. That’s really all I needed. So, I could go and explore, you know, and that’s when I just completely -- that’s when I began my development. I mean, my real development and where nature became much more important to me than anything. Religion had nothing to do with it. It was nature that made sense to me, and I loved it, and I truly loved it. JJ: This was in the ’50s. HA: Mm-hmm. JJ: And -- HA: So, Callister -- I’d let my hair grow. I’d put moccasins on my feet so I could feel the ground as I climbed up to the top of the foothill. I wanted to feel everything, and I wanted to be alive, [00:34:00] and nature was gonna be my source. Well, it came time -- I was three months on that mountain foothill, and I have such 17 �memories of it that will never go away. So, I’d read about Bruce Goff in Life magazine when I was working on Wilshire Boulevard in Los Angeles. JJ: Who’s Bruce Goff? HA: My teacher. JJ: Okay. HA: Well, this is Bruce Goff. This is two of his buildings in here. Anyway -- JJ: [Can you show that to the camera?]? P1: Okay. I don’t know if you can see any of that. JJ: (inaudible). HA: [00:35:00] Bruce was -- JJ: The cover. HA: -- an amazing man. JJ: What kind of magazine is this? HA: This is a Japanese magazine. JJ: Japanese magazine? Okay. HA: And it’s a very difficult -- P2: (inaudible). HA: All right. JJ: So, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: I had known about him, and Callister also knew about him, and he knew more about him than I did, and he said that Bruce teaches architecture with music, and I just -- I had to go. So, I wrote Goff a letter that I sent from the mountain area, and I got a letter back saying -- I asked him if I could come and see the school 18 �and if I really liked it, and I got a letter back saying, “Come ahead.” So, I hitchhiked from California to Oklahoma and [00:36:00] met Goff, walked into the school, which was in a barracks building from the Second World War, the Navy barracks, building 10 miles away from the main campus at the university, which I thought was great. And I walked into the front door and down the long central corridor, and I couldn’t believe what I saw. It was amazing. Kids were doing things there that were never seen. The openness of Goff -- because Goff never went to college, which is unheard of now, but the president of the school interviewed him, and he said, “You’re gonna be the chairman of the architecture school.” Totally amazing. Huh? JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) What were these kids doing? HA: Well, they were doing their own drawings and [00:37:00] following the class requirements, but the class requirements were freer. So, everybody had to take a basic design course, whether they went to another college or not, and there was an area that brought young people who were fed up with the schools they were in, and they went there, so -- I still maintain friendships with people there. Okay. So, then, I spent two years, a year and a half there, and then I had to go in the Army. JJ: Okay. So, you got drafted? HA: I was drafted, even after we wrote letters and Goff wrote a letter saying that this boy would be better off if he didn’t go, and -- but that didn’t work. So, I was in for 20 months. I didn’t go overseas. I begged them to send me to Germany or some [00:38:00] place, but they didn’t. They just kept me here, doing -- (pause) 19 �(inaudible) can’t think of the right word, but we would be traveling from Georgia to Alabama and back again and doing these movements in order to make sure that we would outlast an atomic war. So, then, I got out, and I went back to Oklahoma and finished. I finished in 1958. And then, it was time to decide what was I gonna do after that, and how was I going to start? Well, I had worked for [00:39:00] architects in Los Angeles, and I had amassed a certain amount of credits, annual credits, so I could take my licensing exam in Chicago in 1960. That’s when I was first licensed. JJ: So, you moved to Chicago in -- HA: I came home, and I had in my mind, well, I better go home and find out whether I can do the things I want to do in the area that I was born. To me, that was a requirement. So, I had to come here and see what I could do, and I started building right away. Did all kinds of things. Took another license exam in California. JJ: What do you mean, you started building? HA: I literally started building things. I remember doing a church for a Black group on Ogden Avenue, that church in a movie theater. JJ: Now, you did the [00:40:00] design, but when you say building, were you --? HA: No, I was contracting. I was -- JJ: Oh, you were contracting. HA: I was designing and contracting. JJ: And contracting also. HA: And I did that for -- 20 �JJ: You did a church. What else did you do? HA: That was a Black church, and I designed their -- where the chorus would be, which is -- in the movie theater, it was where the screen would be. And I did an addition to a house, [my first project?], an addition to a house in Evanston. Evanston? I think so. And my client was very happy with what we did, and I had fun doing it, so -- I wasn’t licensed at the time I did that, I don’t think. [00:41:00] Anyway, so, then, it came to, well, what do I do? And I got myself involved in being a part of the design team for the Fermilab?. JJ: Family Lab? HA: Fermilab. JJ: Fermi? HA: Yeah. The big organization that was shooting particles at smaller particles and busting then up so they could discover what is the source of our world. It was the largest of the proton accelerators until recently, until five years, six years ago. Now, there’s one in Europe. JJ: So, you were doing projects for them? HA: I was involved in the design team for the central laboratory building, [00:42:00] and we were maybe six of us, five or six of us at the time, and this was a major group of people. Two architects, one from New York, one from LA, a construction company from Texas, mechanical engineers, and we were having a lot of trouble answering the main physicist’s requirements. So, I took the thing, and I designed something, and I thought that it was responsive to their building program. And so, the first design for the central laboratory building was mine, 21 �and I made presentations to the Atomic Energy Commission during the [00:43:00] presentation time and this whole thing, but I couldn’t get the rest of the -- I couldn’t get the engineers to back the method I was using, which is something that’s been used thousands of times now. And, you know, you think that you are the only one who has designed whatever it is that you are designing, but you recognize much later in life that these things are here right now, and you are just tuned into them. You are tuned into that just as you’re tuned into other people and tuned into nature, and how nature grows, and all the diversity, which is really important, which we keep crunching because we don’t understand, and that always -- you know, that’s in the front of my mind all the [00:44:00] time. Well, subsequently, there were 35 other designs for the central laboratory building. I left about a year and a half after I started. So -JJ: Okay, so you said, subsequently, there were some other designs, but you were still working there for a year and a half, doing these designs. HA: Yes. That was how I was earning a living. For a year and a half, I was in that group. I got a wonderful letter afterwards actually mentioning the design (audio cuts out; inaudible) from Wilson, who was the man who was responsible for having that accelerator built. [He was?] really an amazing guy. Fancied himself a sculptor and was not your usual [00:45:00] scientist. He was far more than that. And I would go to dinner with those people, and I’d draw in the things I was interested in and share what I thought I could share with them and felt comfortable. But then, you know, I’m not a wealthy man. I mean, I wasn’t a wealthy kid. I didn’t come from wealth, although my father’s family had money 22 �until they lost it, which is what caused my father to come to America and try to get it all back. JJ: What do you mean? How did they lose it? HA: Huh? JJ: How did they lose it? HA: Well, my grandfather made the money with his -- he made clothes in New York after my father’s side of the family came from Austria. [00:46:00] I don’t know much about the grandfather. I met him only a few times, and I don’t want to get too deep into that story, but he made his money, and, from what I’m told by a cousin I had, he went to Canada, which is where my father was born, and invested, you know. They were well off, and they -- but he invested, and there was a recession, and he lost a lot of his investment, and my grandmother owned and was responsible for a business which brought people [00:47:00] in, and they could live there and have room and board, and she took care of cousins of mine, and she was really strong. She was certainly one of the people that I recognize my father really loved, but he wasn’t very happy with his own father. Well, you know, I got born, and my folks were divorced when I was 10, and we didn’t hear from him for two years. And then, suddenly, we began getting checks because he got drafted into the Second War, and we got Army checks. [That was a big?] -- that’s a long time ago now. That’s [00:48:00] back in the ’40s, early ’40s. So, after the Fermilab and after I got my license, I set about -- JJ: Contractor or architectural? HA: Huh? 23 �JJ: Contractor or architectural license? HA: My architecture license. There is no contractor license. JJ: Okay. [There wasn’t?]. I only mention that because I was told in Michigan to try to get a license for contracting, which would have been a mistake if I did. HA: Yeah, I think so. I don’t think there -- they may have something, you know, that they can test you with, but I don’t know what it is. It certainly wasn’t around when I was a kid or when I was doing that stuff. JJ: I don’t think I would [00:49:00] [do good?] building houses. HA: So, I got married, and both families were there in this big, fancy wedding that was paid for by my wife’s father, and it was a woman I loved, but she had a nervous -she had a -- JJ: What’s her name? HA: Hmm? JJ: What’s her name? HA: Her name was Linda. JJ: Linda. Okay. HA: Linda Goffen was her maiden name. Alan was her married name. And, after about 17 months, she had a nervous breakdown and went to the hospital, and it never -- so, we got [00:50:00] a divorce, and I have a relative who was a lawyer and helped me through all that. There are no children or -- it was really -- I was very surprised, and it was kind of a shock, but she just couldn’t be -- at that time, she went back to school, got her music degree, and went to Los Angeles, and we’d see each other periodically, and she died when she was 50 of uterus cancer 24 �or one of those cancers. I sat with her when she was in the hospital on her painreducing drugs. It was kinda sad. [00:51:00] And so, a couple of years later, I got married again, and that’s when I had my first two children. JJ: What are their names, and what’s your wife’s name? HA: My second wife’s name was Jean, and my daughter’s name is Jessica, first daughter, and second daughter is [Ruthie?], and they are both kinda named after, I think -- Ruth was named after my grandmother. No, my -- yeah, my grandmother. You know, I had already made a place to live [00:52:00] with my first wife. And so, I did all the carpentry in the house and fixed it up to some, you know, decent degree. Had fun doin’ it. And -- JJ: What neighborhood was it in? HA: It was Old Town. JJ: Oh, in Old Town. Okay. HA: It was just west of Sedgwick. It’s kind of an alley there, which has its own name, but that’s where the building was or is. Subsequently, I’ve done projects like it not far from there. Anyway -- JJ: And you built the whole building? I mean, [was it an old?] house, or --? HA: No, it was in a two-flat [00:53:00] frame building facing that street. I don’t remember the name of the street. At least I got Sedgwick right. JJ: (inaudible). HA: And I continued working. I got projects, and I would work up in the attic of that building, doing construction drawings and whatever was necessary for clients. JJ: We’re talking about ’60s now, or...? 25 �HA: We are talking about -- JJ: Just trying to get a timeline. Early ’60s? Late ’60s? HA: Middle ’60s -- JJ: Middle ’60s, okay. HA: -- because I had came here and bought this property in 1969, late 1969. JJ: [00:54:00] Okay, so you came in 196-- HA: Well, actually, I bought it in early 1970. JJ: Okay. From Old Town, you came here, so -- HA: Hmm? JJ: From Old Town, you came here. HA: Yes, that’s right. JJ: Which is right across from -- HA: The church. JJ: The People’s Church, yeah. (inaudible) church. HA: Yeah, well, it wasn’t -- JJ: [Which we call?] (inaudible). HA: -- People’s Church when I came. That started shortly after -- maybe it was that summer, when we heard of the death of the reverend. JJ: Reverend Bruce Johnson and Eugenia -- HA: Yeah. JJ: -- Johnson, his wife. HA: And it’s also when -- boy, I have a terrible problem. It was a kid from IIT. He was in the architecture school, came to my -- I had my office in the front [00:55:00] 26 �store for quite a long time, and he came in that store to ask me if I was interested in getting involved with housing for a group called the Young Lords, and I said, “Sure.” And that’s how it all started. So, I went with the group, which you headed, to sit in -- I think it was the second sit-in for the McCormick Theological Seminary. JJ: No, the first. It was the only one. HA: The first. Okay. JJ: It was the only one, yeah. HA: So, I went with you, and all the people involved, and their children to sit in and not want to move until some decision was made by -- JJ: So, you were in McCormick Seminary? HA: Yes. JJ: During the takeover? HA: That’s right. JJ: Oh, okay. Okay. I mean, I don’t remember everybody. I know that [00:56:00] it was around that time that we met, yeah. HA: Yes. I was there, and I, you know, got -- we left after you got some response from the board -- JJ: Did you stay overnight there, or did you --? HA: No, I didn’t stay overnight. JJ: [You would come over?] -- ’cause a lot of people came home and then came back the next day. 27 �HA: No. I didn’t go back the next day. I thought, at that night, we had found out that they -- or maybe they just said they were gonna think about it that night, but I thought. JJ: Oh, it was Sunday. You probably went there on the Sunday. That’s when we concluded the takeover. HA: They were going to then come up with a -- on the basis of the fact that their place was here and they ought to contribute to the community. JJ: Okay. So, that -- HA: And they apparently came up with some money, which -- JJ: So, you went inside the -- if you can describe how -- what did you see? HA: I sat with everyone at a [00:57:00] very -- JJ: [And what did it look like?]? HA: -- large table, and sat in the room, and listened to everybody talk. JJ: So, everybody was just discussing different things, or...? HA: Well, they were discussing the needs of the people who were there, you and the others, and I realized that this was all happening because they had a sense that, if they didn’t do something, they were gonna be heaved out of the neighborhood. I understood that. So, when there was a -- JJ: And who was this student, again, that went to you from ITT, or do you remember --? HA: I know his name. I know his name. Gee. JJ: If you think of it [00:58:00] later, it’s fine. But, anyway, a student approached you. 28 �HA: Yes, a student came, and approached me, and asked me if I’d be interested in working out housing on some urban renewal sites. JJ: Okay. For the Young Lords at the time. HA: Yes. Well, the Young Lords grew to -- the whole thing grew to a bigger -- [the three churches?], the -- JJ: Okay. Okay, so it was a bigger coalition -- HA: Yes. JJ: -- of people. HA: Yeah, calling themselves the Poor People’s Coalition [Development Corporation?]. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Okay, the -- HA: No, Poor People’s Development -- JJ: Corporation. That’s what it was called. Okay. HA: Yeah. JJ: All right. HA: Bad choice. JJ: [Thank you?]. It was a bad choice? HA: Yes, it was a bad choice. JJ: Why was it a bad choice? HA: ’Cause the rest of the population here, when they see the word “poor,” they will have nothin’ to do with it. [00:59:00] They don’t want to be poor. They all came here and bought property for the first time in their lives and came from Europe 29 �and all kinds of other places, and the word “poor” was not healthy. Not a good choice. JJ: So, it was [not a great choice?]. HA: No, it was honest, but -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: It was honest, but it wasn’t right. JJ: Okay. So, [it isn’t you’re saying it’s dishonest. It was?] -- HA: And then, we -- JJ: But we could have did better in marketing. [That’s what you say?]. HA: Yes. You should have marketed yourself as brilliant. So, what else is going on here? JJ: So, you went there, and you designed -- can you describe the design that you made, or...? HA: Well, what I did was -- JJ: Did you do that right away? Did you design it --? HA: No, I certainly did not know it right away. I found out about the property. I found out about what had to be presented to the [01:00:00] Urban Renewal Board for acceptance, and the city had appointed -- it’s another name I can’t remember. JJ: Well, there was a guy named Ira Bach. HA: Ira Bach. Oh, my God. I couldn’t remember his name. Geez Louise. Give me a piece of paper. (inaudible). I knew of him before I even came to Chicago. He was a friend of -- (break in audio) 30 �HA: -- from Callister because Bach was at the University of Texas, where Callister was a student, and I’d heard of Ira Bach as a planner, as a city planner, and he was Mayor Daley’s planner. So, he -- JJ: Wasn’t he the head of [01:01:00] the Department of Urban Renewal for a while, or the planner? That’s what you’re saying? HA: I think he was only with the city. JJ: Oh, with the city. HA: I don’t think he was ever a member of the urban renewal organization. That was Lou Hill was the -- JJ: Was the director, yeah. HA: Was the director. JJ: So, did he work -- Ira Bach would work under Lou Hill, or -- is that how that worked, or (inaudible)? HA: I don’t know. Maybe side-by-side. JJ: Side-by-side. HA: Separate organizations. So, he was the one who would oversee the drawings we made and made sure that we had taken care of all the things that were required because this whole urban renewal thing was federal. And we submitted everything, and we went through all the presentations to the neighborhood associations. I think there was a [01:02:00] couple of years of that, and -- JJ: A couple of years of going through (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 31 �HA: A couple of years of making -- well, maybe it was only one year of making presentations to the neighborhood associations and to the umbrella group, the Lincoln Park Conservation -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: -- Association, LPCA, and then to the CCC group. JJ: Community Conservation Council. HA: Yes. Community Conservation Council, which was supposed to have people on it that represented all the different groups that lived in the neighborhood, lived in this community. I hesitate to call it a community ’cause it almost never was a community, and we continue to make sure that it doesn’t happen because politicians and the economy are only happy to separate. JJ: So, how was Ira Bach in terms of the [01:03:00] plan? Was he against it, or --? HA: No. Well, he wasn’t either -- he didn’t come out and say he was for or against it. What happened is that I would -- living here and would oversee or look at the community of very diverse people, and we had -- this building over here, we had an Italian group that had been there for three generations. And then, we had a Mexican grocery store, and the woman there really took care of the street as well, and took care of the kids in the neighborhood, and was very active across the street from the church that you finally occupied. And I realized that people were -- JJ: [At New Methodist Church?], yeah. HA: Yeah. Yeah. [01:04:00] I realized that people were helping each other, and that whole social world seemed to make a great deal of sense to me, and I wanted to 32 �make these buildings that I designed for the urban renewal sites of which they were for and including one that was nearly a block long so that we could have 12 units on each floor, and it was a three-story affair. And what I did was to place 10-foot streets on every floor. JJ: Ten-foot -- HA: Ten-foot-wide streets or decks. JJ: Decks, okay. HA: So that kids could play on the decks and not necessarily on the street and for people to take care of each other’s kids. JJ: How many stories was it? HA: Three. JJ: Three stories, okay. HA: Three stories. So, it was all designed for the public part of the apartments to face the street, and then to separate those with [01:05:00] closets all the way across each apartment and then put the bedrooms behind it so the street noises wouldn’t be too difficult. But the idea was it was a semi-shared life design with everybody coming home from after work or whatever they did during the day, and have this deck to sit out on in decent weather, and have children play up there, and have one person, you know, be a babysitter for all 12 units if that was the case. That was what I had in my mind. These days, it was called a socially focused project, or a socially focused design, or a shared lifestyle design, which is now coming back, [01:06:00] and I remember my California days, when the [favelas?] in South America -- there was one design I had read about in a 33 �magazine that I’d really enjoyed, and that was, instead of designing some new, fancy place that would sort of be like what was generally accepted, the architect had designed this new project using the concept of the [favelas?] so that there were places for people to go and watch TV, not have to have a TV in their house or couldn’t afford it but -- that all made such great sense to me. You know, it wasn’t a question of running out, and working your tail off, and then buying everything that you’re supposed to buy to have in your house. That didn’t make any sense to me. [01:07:00] It was an act of making people get along. Well, I got terribly disappointed during the project for not just -- I was disappointed at first because, when it came time -- oh, I want to add something there. Do what you can with it. We were told by the local urban renewal office that we were going to be accepted. The CCC voted in favor of our project with only one abstention that I remember. So, we all thought we were going to be the developer, and I was kinda happy about being the architect. JJ: And this is the group from the community that’s supposed to represent the community, they told us that [01:08:00] it was gonna be accepted? HA: Well, during the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JJ: [The city official representative?] -- HA: No, no. It was from the local office of the Department of Urban Renewal after the CCC had voted in favor of our project with only one abstention. JJ: Okay. HA: And, at that time, I was doing work for another organization, the Construction Aggregates Corporation, and I went to Jamaica to look at a housing system. And 34 �I was really coming back thinking, well, just got this one more hurdle to get through, which was the Board of Urban Renewal and their vote, and I had been supported by Walter Netsch, who was the only architect I could get to do this kind of support because Walter had a sense of what was -- you know, what should be [01:09:00] done and was a very inventive architect who passed away -- I don’t know, about four, five years ago. And he was standing over here, and the man who was teaching at Northwestern University and wrote a book called Proxemics, which was about the distance between people of different ethnic backgrounds or different [local?] backgrounds, like Germans would talk to each other, and they have to have a lot of space in between. South Americans would talk to you like this. JJ: Closer? HA: Closer. Much closer. But he wrote that [01:10:00] book, and he was there -- who was also supporting the project. And we had what? Eleven editorials and a great many newspaper articles about this shared lifestyle method. And we were all getting ready to talk, as you know. JJ: Was Ira Bach there too, or no? HA: I don’t remember seeing Ira. JJ: Okay. Okay. All right. HA: And so, we’re waiting for -- because, since it was a federal program and federal money that was going into this, there had to be this meeting where everybody had a chance to talk either for or against. JJ: This was at City Hall? 35 �HA: Hmm? Yes, this was at City Hall in the Alderman’s Chambers, and we were waiting to talk, and, suddenly -- JJ: Was this the Housing Committee or --? HA: The [01:11:00] Urban Renewal Board -- JJ: Board, okay. HA: -- was way down in the center of the space, sitting at a table with the board members all around it, and we were waiting for -- everybody was waiting to talk. We were all in the perimeter, standing there, waiting -- JJ: Now, how many people were there? HA: Oh, I’m sure there’s at least a hundred people there, all waiting to talk. And then, suddenly, we were told that the board had already voted, and they voted for the other team. And that’s when the one guy who was part of our group jumped over the rail and raced down to the center, where the board members were, and, of course, he was picked up by the [01:12:00] cops and used his head to open a door to take him out of there, and he went to the hospital. JJ: How did you feel about it? HA: I felt bad. I felt tricked because one of the political ways of making people relax is to tell ’em they’re going to win, and then they don’t -- they’re far more relaxed and not involved as much because they believe what they’ve been told, and that -- it is a political trick. So, I felt depressed. After all of those years, and the time we did things, and -- [01:13:00] so, I was building a building out of concrete, one of my favorite materials, and it wasn’t gonna burn down, and it was going to be difficult to destroy. Well, I was learning. I mean, would I do the same thing 36 �again? I’d be interested in the social aspects of a building where we might be able to make community, and community has suddenly become really important, and here I am, on my property, building a building that nobody’s ever seen before, and it’s taken 20 years for people to get used to it. And I have my property up for sale because of 2008, when the economy dropped. Then, I wasn’t getting very much work, and the work that I did have wasn’t going forward. [01:14:00] So, I’ve been struggling since 2008 to now, and I have a couple of projects now, and I continue to work on things that I feel are important, like that 47th and Michigan Avenue project. In some way, I’m going to get this idea across. JJ: So, after that, what -- you know, everybody’s feeling down, depressed, and -- HA: Well, everything started to popcorn, and people started leaving, which is -- JJ: People started leaving where? HA: Well, you weren’t leaving. You went further north, and -- JJ: [That’s right, we went up to?] -- HA: Yes. JJ: [We had a training school?]. (inaudible). HA: [01:15:00] And you ran for alderman (inaudible) -- JJ: In the North Side. HA: -- Award in the North Side. JJ: (inaudible), yeah. HA: Yeah. 37 �JJ: Okay. Now, some other things happened. What about the thing with People’s Park? Was that before or after? HA: That was before. JJ: That was before? Can you describe --? HA: Yes, People’s Park was -- JJ: ’Cause there was also Buckminster Fuller’s geodesic -- HA: We build the dome in this yard. JJ: Okay. What was that? I don’t understand the geodesic dome [by?] Buckminster Fuller ’cause I don’t know -- I met him. HA: Yes, you did. JJ: [But I didn’t know him?]. HA: Yeah, gave you a kiss. JJ: He gave me a kiss and everything, and I didn’t [met him before?]. HA: That was great. He -- JJ: [Who was he? Who was he?]? HA: I’ve heard him talk. Before all of that, I’ve heard him talk twice, and, if he has an opportunity [01:16:00] to talk to a group, he never talks for less than four hours. Amazing man. And he was a whole systems thinker. Not just what it looked like, not just how it functioned, but how the whole thing worked together. In my estimation, the greatest source of whole system-type thinking is just to look at your body. You know, as long as you’re reasonably healthy, your body does everything. It relates to everything. That’s an amazing whole system that we are, and buildings should be designed in the same way instead of a lot -- well, 38 �that’s all coming now because we are in [01:17:00] very difficult straits. We cut down mountaintops for the sake of cheaper coal. We’ve got more gas wells in the United States. People go up to their faucets in the kitchen and light a match, and the water lights up because of the gas. We’ve screwed up the oceans. We are really bad, and we don’t care, and most people won’t even think about it. JJ: So, what? Mr. Fuller is a whole person? HA: He is a whole systems person. JJ: Whole systems person. HA: And what he did and all the things which he developed were based on that. JJ: And he designed the -- HA: Well, he started doing buildings with a dome for the sake of weight and for less materials. So, we would be doing buildings that didn’t weigh nearly [01:18:00] as much, and he always loved to say, “Well, how much did your building weigh?” So, buildings (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: But wasn’t his design accepted for (inaudible) --? HA: Montreal World’s Fair? JJ: Montreal World’s Fair and the -- HA: Oh, yes. JJ: They were talking about the [moon?] and everything in there. HA: That’s right, yeah. Course, they all leaked. JJ: They all leaked? HA: Yeah. Oh, those things move. Everything moves in those things. And so, they always had to deal with stopping the leaks. 39 �JJ: So, all these geodesic domes leak. HA: All of the ones that were made back then, yeah, did leak. JJ: But he’s the one that designed it for the Montreal Fair, you’re saying? HA: Fuller is, yes. He designed the big -- JJ: Buckminster -- HA: -- almost a complete sphere in the Montreal World’s Fair. JJ: Okay. [01:19:00] And so, we had a -- HA: As well as an automobile with three wheels called the Dymaxion car. The Dymaxion houses he designed. The stuff that was [pertinent?] was kind of taken in by the United States military and used for quick enclosures. They flew him out to Alaska and further north ’cause you already had a lightweight something you could carry underneath a helicopter. JJ: So, why did he come here, to the church and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HA: He came because of Bill Becker, who was one of his students who knew about the meeting that was taking place, and, somehow, he -- JJ: Talking about this meeting in City Hall? HA: No. JJ: Okay, what meeting? HA: No, the meeting that Fuller spoke -- at [01:20:00] the church. JJ: Okay. All right. HA: He knew about that meeting, and he picked Bucky -- JJ: Fuller. HA: -- at the airport and brought him here. 40 �JJ: Oh, okay. Brought him to the meeting. HA: And Fuller always loved grassroots people and always loved people who were trying to do something that made more sense, at least to us. And so, that’s why he was there. And I gave copies of the magazine to -- JJ: I think he also, at one point, lived in Lincoln Park. HA: He did. JJ: [Years ago?]. HA: Yes, he almost committed suicide here. JJ: Oh, he did? HA: Because his first child died, and he sort of almost didn’t want to go any further, and the story goes that he went to Lake Michigan and was getting ready to jump in, but something came to him, and he decided that he was gonna do this kind of work for the rest of his life. [01:21:00] He didn’t care about business, and he wasn’t a businessman. He was an inventor. He was somebody who was open. His system was open to the things which made sense, and he worked that way with those things, inventing what made the most sense. He did maps. He did automobiles. He did housing. He did metal housing. He would suspend things from cables. That’s the way he was, and he was a nonstop talker. He could talk -- you know, he spent maybe an hour talking to the people at the church. I doubt whether they understood much of what he said, but [he?] said, “We don’t need water. We can take showers with gas, and we don’t have to pay for water into the city, and [01:22:00] all that stuff.” All of these things always have to face people who don’t want change. I grew up thinking that, if you showed something 41 �to someone that they’d never seen before, they ought to be overjoyed to see that. Oh, but they’re not. They’re terrified, and I can’t figure it out. Why wouldn’t you want to take a look, at least, and try and understand whatever this was that you’d never seen before? So, when I built this studio -- it’s a passive solar studio -- people would walk down the alley. They’d look at that piece of junk across the way. That’s it. And, you know, I knew that that’s the way it was, but did I want to be that way? No. I didn’t want to be that way. JJ: [01:23:00] Now, you went into the (inaudible) the McCormick Seminary takeover. HA: Yes. JJ: And the Young Lords were there. HA: Yes, and -- JJ: How did you feel? Because [it’s said?] they were a former gang. Did you feel threatened? And you lived right across the street from the church. So, [how did you feel?]? HA: No. I didn’t feel threatened. I felt that this was something that I’d never done before. And so, I was a little concerned in marching over there with you and the group to do the sit-in, but I did. I think you were -- I wanted to do the work, so probably would have done anything to get the work. JJ: Okay. So, your [idea?] was to get the work. [There was at the time?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: [01:24:00] Well, then, it was. Yeah. I’m an architect. I wanted to practice what was important to me, and, you know, you gave me the opportunity to do it. 42 �JJ: And, I mean, you came in 1969, which was really after the community was really -- most of them were evicted by that time. HA: Oh, they were, yeah. JJ: Yeah, I mean, ’cause that started, like, in the ’50s, the Puerto Rican (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HA: I understood that some of the parents of the group, the Young Lords group, owned some property. Not very many, but they did own property. JJ: Yeah, they did own property, but, like, you said you were tricked. My perspective, my thinking, is that they were tricked also because it was prime real estate. HA: Oh, yes. Everybody was tricked. JJ: I mean, I’m not putting words in your mouth. HA: No, everybody was tricked. The real estate brokers would knock on everybody’s doors here and tell [01:25:00] ’em, after they’ve been here for three generations, “If you stay here, your property values are gonna go down, so this is the right time to sell. Best time in the world to sell.” And they bought this stuff for nothin’. JJ: So, you saw that, or you heard that people were knocking on doors? HA: Oh, yes. I was. I was. JJ: What about taxes? You’re probably [aware about?] taxes. Was that going on, or...? HA: I think taxes were quite low. JJ: Oh, really? HA: Yeah, back then. A lot lower than they are now. 43 �JJ: Well, yeah, no, they were lower then. HA: Yes, lower then. Yes. JJ: They started going up. HA: They started going up. JJ: How significantly did they go up? HA: I don’t know. [01:26:00] I’m an old man, so I’m a senior citizen. And so, my taxes don’t really change much on a business zone, so I’m not suffering from the taxes. I’m just suffering for not having very much money. JJ: (inaudible). HA: Yeah. JJ: [Basically?]. But what about your neighbors? HA: I don’t know enough to say. I’ve heard lots of people griping about their taxes, and they had been going up steadily. JJ: And perhaps that’s not an issue. You know, a lot of people lost their houses, and -- so, I’m trying to figure out how -- HA: Yeah, that’s because -- JJ: What were the pressures? HA: -- they don’t have the money to pay the mortgage. It’s not just the taxes -- JJ: Mortgage. HA: -- which does it. It’s the fact that, in order to keep what you’ve got, you have to continue paying [the fee?] to the mortgage banks, which I’m doing. JJ: Okay. I see. [01:27:00] Okay. HA: No, and it has been tough for me. 44 �JJ: What has been the change from the time that you moved here in ’69 until now? I mean, what kind of changes did you see? HA: Well, the changes which I see is that the diversity is gone. The different kinds of people aren’t here, and, back in the early days, everybody had ideas and were interested in producing them or finding ways to do them, were interested in listening to other people talk about their ideas. Now, it’s just money that’s here. It isn’t really anything else. It’s only money. But I do get the sense that some new commercial places [01:28:00] are coming that -- well, of course they are. Anything commercial is here because of the chance to sell what they can sell. So, it is essentially money, and, you know, I designed an [arcade?] over Armitage Street, going from Halsted to Sheffield, and taking the cars off the street, and having a place to walk underneath a translucent cover, and providing landscaping and seating, and you just took the cars off at certain times during the day, and people then -- then, the development of the business world would relate to that arcade, and it would draw people here so that the economy would be better, and [01:29:00] there would be a social aspect to the location. JJ: So, is that going through, or no? HA: No. I keep talking about it and showing it to people, and I showed it to the businesspeople at a meeting, and they were more worried about, if you build it, will that hurt my business? Fear, you know. It’s just fear. But, if we did it, their business would grow again if they could get through it, and they wouldn’t have to shut down ’cause the arcade didn’t go from touching building to touching building on either side of the street. It left five feet of open space so that you could fix 45 �your facades. And then came the [land marking?] of the facades of all the buildings on Armitage Street. The facades, the face piece, the faces of the [01:30:00] buildings, you couldn’t touch. You had to keep it, except I didn’t. I already changed the face before. It was land marked, and I finally got them to agree that I could remodel the front building in the way that produced a good solar-efficient building. So, I managed to get that, you know, 70 percent done. It has a roof on it that allows sunlight into the building, and I get it eight hours a day. I only get five hours a day in this building, but I get eight hours a day in that building. But I don’t have the money to finish the clay plastering of the upper floor, and just finishing that, putting a finished floor down, and finishing the bathroom. [01:31:00] That’s all that’s left, plus some sun shades on the building. JJ: So, you’re more into solar now, or [you’ve always been?]? HA: Yeah. That was something that’s -- because of nature, I realized, after years of understanding, that we’re not paying any attention to nature, and we don’t see the value of it until now. Now, there’s a lot more movement in that direction. We know that nature is a healer, and we’re now providing hospitals with natural environments so that you could get out of your room, and people have been known to heal twice as fast -- or faster. It’s called biophilic. And, now, in [01:32:00] architecture, you’ll see walls of things growing up the walls that can even be food if you can handle it. JJ: So, this is what you’re -- the biophilic is what -- 46 �HA: That’s one of the things I am interested in. That’s why I have this garden, so that I can see it, and I can always be aware of it. I have bamboo. We just picked boxes of pears off the pear tree. JJ: You have a pear tree? HA: Yeah. It was loaded this year. Amazing. It had more pears on it than I can remember. And I have grapes growing up there too. And then -- JJ: When I was growing up, they had a rooster next door to you. The community (inaudible). I’m serious. I’m not joking. They actually had a rooster in that -- so, they were [01:33:00] natural. They were naturalists at that time too. HA: When you were growing --? JJ: When I was growing up here. HA: Oh. Oh, sure. JJ: I mean, I’m serious. [That’s actually?] -- HA: I know people who have chickens now. JJ: Oh, they still have -- they do have chickens? HA: Not here. On Saint Louis. JJ: I’m not being facetious. They did have -- HA: No, right. Right. JJ: -- rooster. I remember [walkin’ and hearin’ it?]. But, so, you have a pear tree, and the -- HA: I have grapes and a pear tree, and I planted bamboo, and a lot of the original planting was done when I was married the second time and I bought this building, but a lot of it, I’ve added since I’ve been here. 47 �JJ: Okay. I wanted to ask you about Reverend Bruce Johnson, and then we’ll probably wanna do some final thoughts ’cause it’s -- [considering the time?]. HA: All right. JJ: But Reverend Bruce Johnson -- because you were here, and you lived here when [01:34:00] that happened. HA: Yes. JJ: So, what was the climate or the feeling of people in the community at that time? I mean, can you describe how the community was taking that? I mean, I was even incarcerated, and the day that it happened, the bishop [bonded?] me out of the jail to come to the wake. HA: Oh. Oh. Oh. JJ: Yeah, I had been [almost bond jumped?], but they gave me an extra charge of bond jumping because I was late for court. So, I had to get bonded out, but it’s all right. I know that it was about two months before Freddy Hampton of the Panthers was killed. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- HA: Yeah, and I knew all those people too, and I was in the building that he was killed in the day after it happened. JJ: So, you went there -- HA: I went there because I knew the lawyers. JJ: Okay, [01:35:00] right. Oh, you mean Dennis Cunningham. HA: Yeah, Cunningham and -- JJ: So, can you describe the community? Because, here, you’ve got the lawyers. You’re here. There’s (inaudible). There’s other people, the Young Lords Church. 48 �I mean, this community -- can you describe what you saw when you first got here in terms of the --? HA: Well, I can only tell you that I saw what was here, and the things that we did -- we were part of the [parent school?]. That’s the first school that was literally owned and governed by the parents of the children, and it started with pre-school. JJ: This is a separate thing, right? You’re talking about the day care center? HA: I’m talking about this neighborhood. JJ: Okay, the parents school [in?] the neighborhood. Okay. HA: Yes, I’m talking about -- it was basically the idea Dennis Cunningham and his [01:36:00] wife -- JJ: Okay. Oh, that’s right. HA: -- that started the school, and we became part of it, and my girls were in it from pre-school through -- well, one went through eighth grade. One went up to eighth grade, and the other was four years younger. The school folded before she -- she had to go to a public school for a few years before she went to high school. But we were part of that, and part of all the meetings, and part of the squabbles, and the thing would start, and then it would fold up, and then it would start again, all in different locations, and even that church was used as [01:37:00] a place where -- in the back area, that was a place where the parent school started up again. So, it was quite a time, you know. It was when people were wanting to do things -- the people that we knew, the lawyers and people interested in a decent education, were actively involved in. We were. I saw that. And I knew, you know, three generations of Italians next door. I knew the woman 49 �who ran the grocery store on the corner of Dayton and Armitage, and I didn’t know a whole lot of other people. I [01:38:00] [would grant you that?] the drugstore was here, and the Old Town School of Music was here, and I was aware of that, and I was on -- (pause) that’s terrible. I can’t remember names. At the moment, I can’t remember those names. Wait a minute. I wanted to write something down. I -JJ: You were talking about Ira Bach last time. HA: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Ira Bach. JJ: Yeah, Ira Bach. Yeah. HA: You know, he used to walk. He lived way on the North Side. He’d walk to work at City Hall every day, rain or shine. JJ: What do you mean? He walked from here to City Hall? HA: He would walk from way north to the city. He lived somewhere in the North Side. He lived way on the North Side. JJ: And why was he important to you? HA: Well, he was important to me [01:39:00] because he was the city planner, because I had heard of him before I came to Chicago, because he was well respected. That’s why. JJ: And did you meet him personally, or --? HA: Yes, I’ve met him personally. JJ: Okay. HA: Yeah. Even if I can’t remember his name, I remember [him personally?]. JJ: Okay. Now, my understanding is that he was for the plan -- 50 �HA: I think he -- I -- JJ: -- even though he couldn’t say it. HA: No, he couldn’t say it, but I was -- all of our editorials and newspaper articles were very positive about what we were doing, very positive about a grassroots development and the social aspects of it. I didn’t mention that, during that whole process, I had to go before the Urban Renewal Board [01:40:00] prior to the final vote, and I heard one of the -- they [quizzed me?], and one of the -- whether it was the head of the Urban Renewal, Lou Hill, or not, I don’t know, but it was a politician who told me that, because of the decks I had built -- you know, they didn’t think that was gonna work, or it was gonna leak, or whatever, and, you know, what could I say? ’Cause I was too young, and I know what I should have said now that I’ve have the damn experience. I should have said, “What the hell do you know about those things? You’re just a politician.” Fuckers. I hate politicians. JJ: But do you really think it had to do with the deck, or it had to do with -- it was also supporting --? HA: No, they always picked on the buildings to put something they don’t want to have happen. [01:41:00] They blame it on the building. They don’t blame it on people. JJ: Right, ’cause my impression was they didn’t want it because it was our plan. It was something coming from the people of the community and the poor people [or whatever?]. Like you said, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 51 �HA: Well, yeah. They’re not gonna say, “We don’t want it there because we don’t want your people here.” They’re gonna say, “The building doesn’t work, so it’s probably a bad choice.” They might -- JJ: Do you think it’s what happened, or am I putting words in your mouth? HA: I’m sure your words are also part of the truth, but I’m also sure that, at that meeting, what was said out loud was not that we don’t want you. It was that the building won’t work or the building is -- nobody -- whatever it was. JJ: (inaudible). HA: Didn’t look like one they were aware of or -- and it didn’t even have anything to do with that. It just [01:42:00] had something to say about -- that the building wouldn’t work, and I should have just blew my mind, and I should have made that comment right then and there. It probably would have been a big mistake to do it because that would have made it even worse. JJ: But, since that time, you’ve seen that the diversity has -- HA: Oh, the diversity has reduced itself to no diversity at all, and people still living in their boxes, and fixing them up, and spending a lot of facade money, and, now, we have all these new buildings here, but at least all the walls are the same material. I mean, they used to build them with the -- only the facade was what you wanted, and the rear was something cheaper because it was in the rear. It was kind of like doing a [01:43:00] Renaissance front and [Marianne?] behind. JJ: Any final thoughts? HA: That’s a Frank Lloyd Wright statement, by the way. JJ: (inaudible). Okay. Frank Lloyd Wright’s. Okay. 52 �HA: I’ve forgotten what -- he didn’t use the word -- JJ: A quote from him. Okay. HA: He didn’t use the word Renaissance. He used a different work. So -- JJ: Final thoughts? HA: Hmm? JJ: Final thoughts? HA: Final thoughts. (pause) Well, one thought I have is that that situation I was part of was something I had no previous experience [doing?], and it seemed as though [01:44:00] it made sense. You were asking for people to participate in their community, and that was way back -- that’s 52 years ago, which seemed sensible. But the neighborhood has changed to such an extent that -- I don’t know. I had this problem with what buildings should be like. I couldn’t stand the land marking aspect of the front and leaving people to change the insides the way -- it was like giving [01:45:00] yourself a facelift while your cancer is still grabbing you. To me, that’s what that is. I think that living is wonderful and requires a investment (audio cuts out; inaudible). You know, I’m not talkin’ about investing your dollars so that you can spend it after you die. I’m not talkin’ about that. I’m talkin’ about a real future with humanity involved, whatever they are. That’s what I’m talking about. I don’t know what to say. It’s not as though I had a lot of control over it, over the changes. Most of the people that used to live here are gone. There’s really only one or two of us [01:46:00] that have been here all these years, and I’m here because I built this, and it’s my environment. And there are a couple of other people that are doing things in a positive way, and I 53 �finally got people from this community to come here to the studio to see the passive solar aspect of the building. I’ve been published many times. This building has been published in various magazines and books, so -- and I’m going to give a talk some time in -- well, November 2, along with a lot of other people who feel the same way in different areas. I know quite a few of them, and I’m really happy to do that. [01:47:00] So, I think we all have to keep at it, and there’s no other choice. But what can I say to you that relates to -- well, I wouldn’t be the same person I am now without having the experience I had with the Young Lords and the act of wanting to make a place, which is what you were doing. JJ: Okay. I appreciate that. Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 54 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/57fe7e87e84a77651b6c12da3f0e0b59.mp4 1ccceed034e4067ad3ba09897cb08f59 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Howard Alan vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Alan_Howard Title A name given to the resource Howard Alan video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alan, Howard Description An account of the resource Interview of Howard Alan on August 22, 2012 by José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. In the video, a man in glasses sits in front of a bookshelf and speaks to the interviewer who is off camera. Howard Alan is an architect who specializes in organic architecture, passive and active solar and alternative energy conservation. He grew up in Chicago and first learned architecture in high school before going on to attend the School of Architecture at the University of Southern California. In 1969, Mr. Alan invited and brought the world renowned architect, Buckminster Fuller, to the People’s Church to meet with Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the Young Lords. The Young Lords and the Poor People’s Coalition of Lincoln Park (which Mr. Jiménez was also their president) hired Mr. Alan to draw up plans for a multi-unit, affordable housing complex, as a concrete cooperative alternative to Daley’s Master Plan; a plan which was displacing Latinos and the poor from across Chicago’s near-downtown and lakefront neighborhoods. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- (interviewer) Audio Transcription Center (transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/71dc5d4942a30649dde737a59c70b18f.pdf ea42231700577704d772919e1ff939df PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Cathy Adorno-Centeno Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/24/2012 Biography and Description Cathy Adorno-Centeno is the daughter of Angie Navedo-Rizzo, a Young Lord who also founded “Mothers and Others,” a sub-group within the Young Lords that organized around women’s rights issues. Born in Chicago, Ms. Adorno-Centeno describes growing up surrounded by Young Lords and in a home that was a central gathering for pot luck family dinners for members of the organization and their supporters. Following the brutal death of her Young Lord father Jose “Pancho” Lind, Ms. Adorno-Centeno and her brothers and mother went underground; staying at a rented farm near Tomah, Wisconsin that would become the Young Lords’ Training Camp. Her most vivid childhood memories are of the warmth and support she enjoyed as a member of the Young Lords community. It included block parties, farmworker pickets, demonstrations and social events held near or in the Young Lords headquarters on Wilton and Grace streets. She also spent time at Rico’s Club (which her mother owned) and enjoyed company for the Sunday pasta dinners in her home. Today, Ms. Adorno-Centeno still lives in Chicago, where she is a leader within her community. Each year she organizes Angie’s Fighter’s, a cancer walk in her mother’s memory. She works as a Human Resource Executive. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, let me (inaudible). (laughs) CATHY ADORNO-CENTENO: JJ: Okay. Okay, Cathy, if you can give me your full name, your date of birth, and where you were born. CAC: My birth name or my name now? JJ: Your name now -- either way. Whatever you want to do. CAC: My birth name was Catherine [Marie?] Lind, and my name now is Catherine Adorno-Centeno. JJ: Okay, and who are your parents? CAC: My mom was Angela Rizzo, and my father was José Lind. Oh, I forgot my birthday, I’m sorry. March 8, 1969. JJ: 19 CAC: Born in Chicago -- Cook County. JJ: Okay. CAC: Hey. (laughter) JJ: In Cook County Hospital? CAC: Yes. JJ: Okay, all right. And your brother and sisters, what are they -- CAC: I have four brothers: Joe, Peter, Dominic, and Rico. JJ: What kind of work [00:01:00] are they into (inaudible)? CAC: What kind of work are they into? 1 �JJ: Yeah. CAC: Well, two of them are in cable contracting, so they install all the cable contracting. They fly around different cities and do that. Peter works for Federal Express, and Rico works for Jewel as customer service. JJ: Okay, and what kind of work do you do? CAC: I am in human resources for an insurance brokerage firm. JJ: Okay. And have you been there for a while or -- CAC: Thirteen years. JJ: And what do you do there? CAC: I do everything but insurance, (laughter) so I basically -- I’m office manager, so I have four different offices that I manage; I’m the assistant to the president, so I do whatever he wants; and then I manage all the personnel, and I have about 100 people -- actually, about 110 with all my offices. JJ: One hundred and ten people that you manage? CAC: Mm-hmm. JJ: That is impressive. CAC: Yeah. JJ: [00:02:00] Now your mom, what did she do? CAC: My mom was in property management, and she managed housing for lower income. JJ: And she did that for a few years. Was she also a member of the Young Lords? 2 �CAC: My mom was -- I’m not even quite sure what you’d call her, but she was one of the originals in the Young Lords, and she was a part of that up until she passed away. JJ: Okay, so for many years then until she passed away. CAC: Yes. JJ: So you’re saying original, way back from the youth days? CAC: Original, way back. When it started in Chicago, she was alongside my father, alongside you, and alongside a lot of the other individuals that were trying to help the [00:03:00] community. JJ: Okay, but even before that when we were just kind of just from the community. CAC: Yeah, my mom was probably kind of like a lone ranger. She was different. She wasn’t a minority, but she was the minority in the minority. (laughter) She was second descendant Sicilian, and grew up just, you know -- she wasn’t privileged, but she grew up not needy, not really needing anything. You know, she was the only child in a home with two parents and no other children. But she had a big heart, and just opened up to everybody else, and -JJ: Do you remember your grandparents’ names? CAC: Oh, yeah. JJ: What were they? CAC: Joseph Rizzo and Josephine Rizzo. JJ: And Angie, you said she’s second Sicilian? CAC: Yeah, well, second generation here. JJ: Second generation, okay. [00:04:00] Was she pretty proud of her heritage? 3 �CAC: My mom was very proud of her heritage, but when my mom decided to fight a battle, and stand beside those who she felt she needed to stand up for, and married a Hispanic, a lot of her Sicilian family members shunned her. And she was okay with that. So she was proud of who she was, but she was also proud of whatever she stood for. JJ: And she actually spoke Spanish pretty well. CAC: She was fluent. Completely fluent. All three languages. And if you spoke to her, people always assumed that she was Latin. They didn’t know she was not Latina unless she said it. JJ: And she also went to college, also, right? CAC: She did, but she -- my mom’s history is she dropped out of high school. And she was pregnant at a young age with my dad. [00:05:00] And when my dad passed away, she was I want to say maybe 20 at the time, she was with four children, a widow, no degree. And she ended up going back to school, finished high school, and then got a bachelor’s degree in criminal law. She put herself through Northeastern, as a matter of fact. JJ: Her title, I guess, communications secretary, so she had a lot of friends, right? CAC: Yes. JJ: Who were some of the people that were around? That you knew were Young Lords. CAC: Wow. At the time, I didn’t know they were Young Lords, they were just -- people hear the name Cha Cha José Jimenez, and they’re like, “Oh,” and I’m like, 4 �“Okay, he’s like an uncle.” To me, it was normal. But, goodness, [00:06:00] I’m trying to remember names now. I don’t even remember names. JJ: One or two. CAC: Rory. JJ: Rory, okay. CAC: Slim. JJ: Okay. (laughter) CAC: Have you met Slim? JJ: Yes. (laughter) CAC: God, I’m trying to think back now. I see faces. JJ: What about some of the women? Did you know they were Young Lords? CAC: At the time, I didn’t. I didn’t know they were anything different than our family. JJ: Did you know [Sheila?] was a Young Lord? CAC: My Aunt Sheila? JJ: Yeah. CAC: No, I did not. JJ: You did not know? CAC: No. JJ: Okay. Mary, of course, her sister was one. CAC: Yeah, see? JJ: You didn’t know that. CAC: They were just -- it was normal for us. JJ: What about [Yolanda?]? What about Yolanda? 5 �CAC: At the time, no. I didn’t know. JJ: But later on -- later on. CAC: Later on, yeah. I didn’t know how involved -- I really didn’t even know how involved my mom was. JJ: [Hilda Ortiz?], did you know she was a Young Lord? (laughter) CAC: See? F1: It’s like a grand interrogation. CAC: It is. I didn’t at the time -JJ: [Nona?]? [Angie Chansky?]? CAC: They were all friends, [00:07:00] but they weren’t anything else other than our family and friends. JJ: So they related to you just as friends? CAC: Yeah, we were -- to me, it was just normal to have everybody around us not knowing what they meant to anybody else, but they were just -F1: So what are some of your earliest memories from growing up? CAC: Parties. F1: Yeah? CAC: I remember we had -- in relation to the Young Lord, we lived by Wilton and Grace, and the Young Lords had a storefront that they rent, like an office, next to Wilton Cleaners. JJ: Do you remember the colors or no? 6 �CAC: Purple and gold. (laughter) And I remember the parties there. And every adult had a right to tell us what to do or to reprimand us. (laughter) That’s what I do remember. F1: It takes a village and all that, right? (laughs) CAC: Yeah. So I watched my brothers get in trouble all the time. (laughter) [00:08:00] But I remember. I just remember always people around. That’s what I remember. But it was normal. People weren’t sitting around, you know, with papers or trying to do things, they just made normal conversation over Sunday pasta. It was just normal stuff. JJ: So people would get together like on a Sunday -- CAC: Yeah. JJ: At different people’s homes or -- but usually your mom’s? CAC: My mom’s. My mom’s was pasta Sunday. Up until she passed away, everybody knew pasta Sunday. And mom didn’t invite you, mom didn’t make a big deal out of it, you came, and mom had pasta. JJ: Remember that? Yeah. Yeah, because they said like potluck dinners, but I mean they said (inaudible.) CAC: Yep, but that’s what I remember. And the funny thing is I carry that over to now because I love having people over. And it’s not for anything in particular, it’s just people coming over. F1: That’s great. CAC: [00:09:00] Mm-hmm. 7 �JJ: That’s a good thing. Wilton and Grace. You said they were communicating, but that they were at the office, what other ways did they relate? Or what else do you remember? CAC: I remember boycotting. (laughter) We boycotted Gallo Wines as children. (laughter) And the phrase was, “Boycott” -- I’m trying to remember now -“Boycott Gallo Wine, you gotta organize, you got to unionize. You gotta boycott lettuce, boycott grapes, boycott Gallo Wine.” I remember doing that. JJ: Do you remember singing the song? CAC: Oh, yeah. It was like a -- you know, a kid’s rhyme. We just knew it so well. (laughter) F1: This is a good rhyme to know. CAC: Yeah. JJ: [00:10:00] That means you were a Marxist. CAC: We were activists and didn’t even know it. JJ: Had the pickets, had the pickets (inaudible) ’cause on Saturday morning, at the stores, you mean you were there? CAC: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. We would have them take out all the grapes and all the lettuce with the farm workers? CAC: Yeah, but we didn’t know. JJ: There was a group called the farm workers we were working with at that time. CAC: Yeah, but it was normal. It wasn’t anything where nobody wanted to not go. Mom’s going, “Yay, let’s go.” (laughter) 8 �JJ: So what you’re saying by normal, people didn’t get dressed up in soldier outfits or anything like that? CAC: No. It was normal. It was as if you’re taking your kid to the park or to the zoo. We just got up and we did it. JJ: And, in fact, is that most of like the parties and everything? Was it just -- CAC: It was all normal. There was nothing that stood out. We learned later on in life that we hid away at a farm. [00:11:00] And my mom said it was a trip, (laughter) so we all went on a trip. But it was just normal. That’s why I never knew the impact of anybody who was surrounding us, what they were to anybody else ’cause with us it was just normal. F1: When did you find out that this was part of a larger story? CAC: You know, I don’t really know if it’s even hit how large. I watched my mom throughout the years when she would be interviewed, or she would meet with you, and you guys would have all these pictures and go through documents, but it was a part of her stuff, so I never got involved with it. But I think the first time it really hit me was when DePaul University was doing a play, and there were actors portraying my mom, and my dad, and their friends for the first time. And that’s when it was really like, [00:12:00] “Wow, okay, we’re part of something here.” (laughs) Didn’t know it, but, yeah, we’re part of something. But at the time, we didn’t know it. F1: Did that change at all for you -- how you thought about those memories looking back? 9 �CAC: Yeah. I mean I’m always very quiet about them. I don’t talk about them to other people very often. But to know that my parents and my family -- my family -were a part of something, that’s big. That’s big because they were doing something that people don’t do anymore -- or they do it in other countries, not necessarily here, and they were doing it over here. And to start out as a young unorganized group of kids and have these thoughts and these dreams and you turn it in to something, yeah, it’s amazing. JJ: There’s no lighting (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, I’m gonna turn on another light. [00:13:00] (break in audio) JJ: Okay, so you mentioned that you were in a farm on a trip, that your mom took you on a trip. That was like a training school, we called it, at that time. So what do you remember? I mean how did it look? How did the farm look? CAC: You know, I don’t know other than we were told when we got older that we had gone on this trip, and we found out why we had gone on this trip. JJ: And what did you find out? CAC: What did we find out? JJ: Yeah. CAC: That we were underground. (laughter) That’s what I was told, that we were underground. JJ: And what did that mean? CAC: That meant that there was somebody that was being sought after, and we all left. (laughter) 10 �F1: On a trip to a farm? CAC: Yeah, we all went on a trip. And it was just a trip, though. I mean it wasn’t anything -- there wasn’t anything [00:14:00] bad. You know, as a child, you don’t necessarily remember everything, so nothing stood out. JJ: Do you remember that you stayed more than one day? CAC: I don’t remember. JJ: Or like a year? (laughter) F1: It was a long vacation. CAC: Maybe that’s why I don’t remember. JJ: That’s good that you don’t remember. CAC: Whatever it was, it was just something that was normal and we were surrounded by people that took care of us. JJ: Oh, so there were other people there? CAC: I’m assuming that there were other people there. JJ: Okay, you don’t remember anything else. CAC: No. (laughs) JJ: We hope you don’t recall any (inaudible). CAC: I don’t recall anything. JJ: Okay, but you did go to that trip? CAC: Yeah. JJ: You did take that trip. Okay. So we come back from the trip, and we’re back in Chicago, and do you remember anything then? ’Cause there was another house in there. 11 �CAC: We went on two trips? (laughs) JJ: [00:15:00] No, now we’re on Wilton and Grace. CAC: Now we’re Wilton and Grace, okay. JJ: What do you remember from Wilton and Grace? CAC: God, what do I remember? I remember playing out on the streets all the time, and all these adults were always around us. Nobody bothered us, but the adults were always there. We were safe. It was so normal. Nothing ever stood out that -- you know, like, “Hmm.” Nothing stood out like that. JJ: But there were a lot of adults that you knew? CAC: There were always adults that knew us, and they were like our aunts and uncles. We just grew up with them. JJ: I mean a lot of adults or -- CAC: Yeah. JJ: Okay. And then the Young Lords had an office on the corner? CAC: They did. They had the office next to Wilton Cleaners. JJ: Okay. Was your mother there at all at the office? Did she work there? CAC: I’m assuming because I don’t know why else we would have moved just [00:16:00] around the corner from there. JJ: Other people, like myself, I lived on this corner. [Yolanda?] -- CAC: Yeah, I mean everybody was there. JJ: So everybody was living there. CAC: Yeah. I don’t know where everybody lived, but everybody was there. Everybody was there. 12 �JJ: Okay. So here you’re walking down the street and there’s a bunch of people that you know and it’s like your family. CAC: Yeah. On the corner and on the -JJ: Your whole family’s living there. CAC: All the families are living there, and right on the wall, on the corner of Wilton and Grace, apparently there was a gang at the time, the Eagles. They didn’t bother us, us kids played there, but it was -- it wasn’t graffiti at the time. JJ: No, they cleaned the graffiti. Yeah, they cleaned the graffiti, that was the agreement. But it used to be a vicious neighborhood, but it was cleaned up by the Young Lords and the Eagles. CAC: When we were there, [00:17:00] I never -- I don’t have any memories of anything being vicious there. JJ: Anything vicious. By that time, it was okay. And the kids were playing in the street again. CAC: Kids were playing like nothing. There’s pictures -JJ: You didn’t know it was a drug corner before? CAC: No. (laughter) No. Thanks, mom. No, I would’ve had no idea. JJ: Thanks to your mom. Thanks to your mom and her friends that they cleaned it up. CAC: Wouldn’t have any idea. JJ: They cleaned it up. So you don’t remember the campaign, [alderman?] campaign, at all? Or hearing about it or anything? CAC: I remember hearing about it, but I don’t remember what any of it entailed. 13 �JJ: What did you hear? CAC: Uptown. That’s when things started happening in Uptown. That’s what I do remember. There was a legal aid office on the second floor of one of the buildings on Broadway in Uptown, and I remember going there with my mom a lot, but I don’t know what it was for. F1: [00:18:00] I want to know what some of your other memories are from that time. I mean if you were to list some of your fondest childhood memories from that area -- you mentioned the parties, but what else stands out in your mind? CAC: What else stands out? F1: It doesn’t have to be politically significant stuff, just what stands out in your mind as being especially wonderful? CAC: My mom always made something special. You know, nowadays, the kids have all these processed treats and things. We didn’t have money, we were on food stamps at the time. And my mom, I remember her making -- she called it elephant ears with flour tortillas. She would fry them and put brown sugar and sugar. It was the little things that -- we just thought it was the biggest thing in the world. And it wasn’t even a big deal that we were on stamps, but I remember my mom being happy when we weren’t [00:19:00] on stamps anymore because she achieved something. She did it. JJ: So you say on stamps, food stamps? CAC: We were on food stamps for whatever period of time. As long as we remember having the block of cheese and the peanut butter. (laughs) F1: Right. The giant block of cheese, the giant peanut butter. (laughter) 14 �CAC: And the peanut butter that just wasn’t sweet. F1: Right. (laughs) CAC: But, you know, and she was proud. It wasn’t anything to her. But it was just so normal. I’m trying to remember what else. It was just a normal childhood. Being surrounded by so much, I don’t know how we grew up with it being -- everybody else says it was a lot, but it was nothing for us. It was nothing. We just went along, and we saw everybody, and yeah. JJ: When do you start remembering at Rico’s? [00:20:00] When you moved this way? Because you lived up north, too. CAC: We lived up north. When we were up north -JJ: With [Julio?]. CAC: Yeah. My mom was still involved with everything. She wasn’t involved as much, that’s when she was going to -- she was working, going to school, taking care of the family. But, yeah, every so often, I knew that you guys got together. I don’t even want to say she was quiet ’cause she wasn’t hiding anything, but it just wasn’t anything that was so profound like -- you know, it was normal. JJ: So you knew she was a main person in the group? CAC: I knew she was in the group, but I didn’t know she was a main person in the group ’cause she was mom. I didn’t know you were a main person, (laughs) or the main person in the group. You were Cha Cha. JJ: Right. Okay. CAC: So to grow up in the [00:21:00] middle of so much, you guys did a good job of not making a big deal out of it. 15 �JJ: Okay. So you don’t remember any people going to jail or anything like that? CAC: No because mom didn’t put that stuff there. JJ: She didn’t put that to you. Okay. Not a lot of people went, but (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, she didn’t make a big deal out of anything. Even when our dad died, I mean she didn’t talk about what he had done. I actually learned a lot about what he had done through you. F1: Which was what? CAC: That he was -- my dad was -- I’m trying to remember the word that you used. My dad was kind of brave, he was stand-up, a stand-up guy. And I’m going to use the word soldier, but you may not have used soldier. JJ: Security. CAC: Security because he stood up. He stood up to whatever it was. And he wasn’t a big guy, he was a little guy, but he just -- I remember stories [00:22:00] from you about that. JJ: Yeah, he was like security. And he was also from the youth. We knew each other from when we were just hanging out. You know, we had social clubs at the time. Fact, that’s why they were called clubs. So up north -- ’cause you remember the socials, you said, right? Friday night. And by that time, Julio was -- CAC: Yeah, my stepdad was already -JJ: He had a number, what was he 56 or something? He had a t-shirt, in the back with a number. CAC: I don’t remember what the number was. 16 �JJ: Okay, but it was a number. Fifty-one or something. Something like that. So they moved up north. CAC: Yeah, we moved to Rogers Park. And I think, at that point in time, my mom probably took a step back just because we were all in school, you know, grammar school and kind of growing up. And mom probably took a more [00:23:00] silent -- and I don’t know if it was because of her husband at the time, but she was kind of, you know, a little bit more quiet about it, but she still did whatever she was doing, but she didn’t talk about what she was doing. JJ: Right. Well, there was a distance, too. I think at that time I was in Michigan, so the group wasn’t functioning completely at that time. CAC: But whenever you heard the Young Lords, there was a sparkle in -- and she was proud of it. She was proud of all of that. I remember running into one of the gentleman who was part of the Young Lords, and he told me -JJ: Hold on one sec. (break in audio) CAC: -- how much my mom was involved with everybody. And I think it was at the play, the first play that we saw, one of the gentleman there said, “Do you know when you were a little kid, I lived with you for a while?” I said, “What?” (laughs) He said, “Yeah, your mom took me in. Your mom took care of me.” [00:24:00] But for whatever reason, it was just, you know, everything seemed -- nobody was an outsider. JJ: So this person told you that he lived there? CAC: Yeah. 17 �JJ: Okay. And that makes sense because (inaudible) would let -- you guys would be in the back of the house, and the front of the house we kind of hung out. CAC: So we didn’t see -- he said, “I remember your mom always cooking.” JJ: But only a few people hung out there, that he trusted. CAC: The one who said it to me was Rory. JJ: Oh, yeah. So Rory stayed at your house. CAC: I just thought, “Wow, how cool.” And then I remember asking my mom, “Mom, did Rory come with us?” And she was like, “Yeah.” She just never -- she didn’t talk about -JJ: We used to hang out in the front of the house because Angie knew the (inaudible) -- [00:25:00] this is your interview and I’m explaining. CAC: That’s okay. JJ: But just so that you’re aware. But Angie was kind of the leader of the women in the group, and so we had socials. CAC: Oh. Then that goes to the story of the block party because I had heard about that. I didn’t know it at the time, but -JJ: What did you hear? CAC: Apparently there was gonna be a block party, and the police had come and said that they could not congregate and have a block party. I was told that my mom had all the moms come out with their strollers and stood in the middle of the street. The little rebel that she was. (laughter) JJ: Right. The police had told ’em-- “Guys, you cannot get -- you better not or we’ll arrest you.” 18 �CAC: So the moms went out in the middle of the street with the kids. (laughter) JJ: Yeah, that was great. And, in fact, they won an Emmy (inaudible), that’s true. The famous Studs Turkel won an Emmy for describing that (inaudible). CAC: Really? JJ: Yeah. He taped the event. CAC: Wow, [00:26:00] I didn’t know that. JJ: Yeah, somewhere there’s an Emmy (inaudible). CAC: Oh, I would love to see that. I had no idea. JJ: Yeah because he was interviewing people right there. He might have interviewed Angie. F1: I think it’s in the Chicago Historical Society, actually. CAC: Really? F1: So if you were to go and look for it, you should be able to find it. CAC: Uh-oh. They’re watching the Bears game over there. (laughter) Another thing I remember was mom had a paper weight. And it was a clear -- ever since we were children. And it was a little paper weight that had like a rainbow of colors, and mom got this paper weight from -- was it a school? The Young Lords had taken over a building, and mom stole (laughter) a paper weight. JJ: From McCormick Center, you mean? CAC: I don’t know. I don’t remember where it was at, but mom -- and the history around that was that, you know, you guys had taken over this place [00:27:00] and weren’t leaving. You weren’t leaving the premises, and from there, mom 19 �took someone’s paper weight from their desk, (laughed) and it stayed in our house. JJ: It was a souvenir. F1: Do you still have it? CAC: I think one of my brothers have it. F1: Yeah? That’s good. So it stayed in the family. (laughs) CAC: It did, but every time we saw something like that, it was just like -- you know, at the time, you -- “What is this?” But as you grow older and you think, “Wow. Mom still has this thing.” (laughter) JJ: So she never explained anything about the Young Lords or you learned it from other people? CAC: We learned from other people. She just didn’t -- and I don’t know why she didn’t. I honestly think that because of everything that everyone else had gone through when they had this fight, and we had lost our dad very young, that she felt that she didn’t want for her children to have anything held against them or to -- she was afraid of losing somebody else. So I think she [00:28:00] kept us enough away from it so that we weren’t directly in it, but yet, it surrounded us. We weren’t active in it, I should say. F1: Where do you fall in the birth order with your brothers? CAC: I’m in the middle. F1: Okay. CAC: Smack dab in the middle. (laughter) 20 �JJ: So now what else do you remember about up north? ’Cause there were parties at your house. CAC: Yeah, there were always parties. There were always -JJ: What else do you remember up there? What do you remember about Julio? CAC: Can we not talk about him? JJ: Yeah, sure. Juan or no? CAC: Oh, yes. Yes. JJ: Okay. CAC: I’m sorry. F1: Not at all. Use the right refuse anything you want. JJ: This is your interview. CAC: Okay. Oh, you make me cry. Okay. [00:29:00] Yeah, Juan, I loved Juan. I loved Juan. My mom was married three times, and three times she was a widow. F1: That’s a lot to go through. CAC: Yeah. Yeah. And her third husband, Juan Navedo, was wonderful. I couldn’t have asked for a better father, step-father -- I didn’t know my father, so -- but Juan was just absolutely incredible. He loved the Young Lords. (laughter) JJ: So you had Rico’s, right? That was -- Juan was -- CAC: Rico’s was a bar -- my mom and Juan, they owned a bar on North Avenue. JJ: Can you describe what that is and how they started it? CAC: I don’t even know where they got that idea from. They wanted a place for -- oh, I know how it got started because everybody used to hang out on Rosemont at the 21 �house. All the couples were there, we were surrounded by Albert and Nelly, and we were just surrounded by all these different people all of the time. And [00:30:00] they had talked about doing something a little bit bigger, a little bit grander scale. And they purchased a building that had a storefront and they created a bar out of it. And every weekend, their friends were at the bar. So the parties we had in the kitchen then came over into the bar. F1: And where was Rico’s? CAC: It was on North Avenue. North Avenue and [Talman?], I think it was. JJ: So you have Angie who was really running the office at Wilton and Grace, and we have the Friday night socials, and then we had the kitchen parties at your house, and then now you gotta club called Rico’s. CAC: Now we got a club called Rico’s. JJ: And is it the same people, basically, or -- CAC: It was always the same people. Rico’s always felt like family. And even though new people would come in, they would always keep coming back ’cause it was just like family. You knew everybody. Everybody was just good, everybody was safe, and it wasn’t -- there were no problems. It was good. JJ: And then she had the Sunday -- CAC: [00:31:00] Her Sunday pasta. Mom worked full-time with property management, did the bar, and then every Sunday was still her pasta. JJ: Okay. And so these same people keep going? CAC: The same people. JJ: They keep coming. They’re still around. 22 �CAC: Yeah. JJ: So they haven’t left? CAC: No. JJ: Basically. And you didn’t know they were Young Lords? CAC: No. JJ: (laughs) Okay. CAC: They were just our family. Didn’t know -JJ: She kinda kept ’em together a little bit, Angie did? CAC: Yeah, she did. Not until I think when my mom -- after my mom was diagnosed with cancer -- did I realize the full impact of who she was with everybody because that’s when people started talking about -- because everybody didn’t talk about it. But people started talking more and more about the Young Lords, and about what mom did, and about who this was after she was sick. And that’s when it was a full impact of, “This was my life?” (laughs) F1: All kinds of stuff, yeah. JJ: [00:32:00] Where did you go to school? CAC: Grammar school? F1: All the way through. CAC: I remember going to Le Moyne School by Wilton and Grace, and then when we moved to Rogers Park, I went to Stone Academy. JJ: What do you remember of Le Moyne? CAC: Le Moyne? I remember the charter song. I was in kindergarten, but I remember the charter song. And there were all of our friends, and it was a mix of people. It 23 �was every nationality. And when we moved to Rogers Park, we were the minority in the school. We were the minority in the neighborhood. And it was really hard when we first moved in because, you know, I wasn’t blonde and didn’t have the green eyes, and I didn’t have the straight hair, and I was different. But then little by little through the years, it changed, and a lot of other people started moving in the neighborhood. [00:33:00] I felt like we were surrounded by a mix of people, again, which was good. And then I went to St. Gregory High School, and that was it. JJ: What was St. Gregory’s? CAC: St. Gregory’s was, of course, a Catholic high school, but it was a mix of boys and girls. It was a very small school. We probably had maybe 400 kids in the whole school, so we were never in a school that had, you know, 1,000 kids. We were always kinda kept in smaller groups of people. I was a junior class president. That had to be my mom. I don’t know. (laughter) I haven’t figure that out yet. I don’t know how I did that one. (laughs) And that was it. Moved out, got married. JJ: So junior class president. How did that come about (inaudible)? CAC: I don’t know how that came about. I don’t know what it was. I like [00:34:00] being in the middle of everything, but I don’t like being in the front of it. Even to this day, I don’t mind doing whatever it is, but I don’t wanna be in the front. When I do training or I talk to my employees, I’ll do that, but I don’t want to be the first person in the receiving line for anything. F1: Do you know why? 24 �CAC: I think because my mom was in the forefront. I’m not my mom, and I don’t think I’m as strong as my mom was. She stood up for something more than herself, and while I’ll stand up for something, I don’t know -- not to the same measures that my mom would have done. JJ: You growing up, what about your brothers and that? How are they growing up? Are they doing okay or having problems? CAC: No, no. Everybody’s good. You know, as teenagers -JJ: I mean growing up, [00:35:00] as teenagers. CAC: As teenagers, everybody goes through their own growing pains. And my mom was not going to lose her children to the streets. She refused. She fought it. I had one brother who declared one day that he was in a gang, and mom showed him otherwise, and he wasn’t in a gang anymore. (laughs) JJ: What do you mean she showed him otherwise? F1: How did she do that? CAC: You know, I just think she stayed on him. She was involved. She went to the schools, she did everything she could do. If you were at this corner and there was a problem, mom was there. I remember as a young adult, one of my brothers was walking home in Rogers Park. And the neighborhood had just started changing, and there were some gangs that were coming in. And they jumped him, and he went inside, and my mom was there with Juan, and Myrna, Hector, Albert, Nelly, and all of the adults went outside [00:36:00] to where these guys were at, and my mom threatened them. She didn’t play when it came to her kids. So I think that helped keep her children -- you know, “You don’t need that. 25 �You’ve got family, you’ve got love, you’ve got everything you need, you don’t need anything.” So, thankfully -- knock on wood, there’s no wood right here -but everybody was okay. JJ: So she was able to stay on top of ’em and that’s what -- CAC: Yeah, she was always on top of it. Always. And it made me think about that with my son. My son is 21 now, and I thought, “It’s one child. I’m not gonna lose him.” JJ: What’s your son’s name? CAC: Alberto. And when he was born, I thought, “Okay, my son has two strikes against him.” JJ: And what’s your husband’s name? I didn’t get your husband’s name. CAC: My husband’s David. I’m sorry. I thought my son had two strikes against him. One, he was a boy; and two, he was Hispanic. And it’s not a good way to think about your [00:37:00] child, but that was my thought. And I was gonna do whatever I could for him not to be a statistic in anything. And I think he’s good. He goes to school part-time --college, and he works part-time, and he’s a very -he’s very honest. Tells me things that you don’t think a son should tell a mother. (laughs) F1: That’s good. CAC: Yeah, he’s very honest. He’ll still ask permission for things. If he’s not gonna come home, he still calls. JJ: You mentioned my sister, Myrna. So were there other relatives that you stayed close to or -- I mean friends or -- I mean was there like a core group of people? 26 �CAC: There was. The core group of people that I remember more -- this was in my teenage to my later -- was Cha Cha’s sister, Myrna, her husband, Hector, and their friends, Albert and Nelly -- [00:38:00] Lucas -- who was [Yoeli’s?] family. And Yoeli is Cha Cha’s ex-wife. And we grew up with them in a part of everything that we did. Now that my mom passed away, I’ve grown a little bit away from that. Not as close with it. I think I realized that my mom was a lot of the center of the glue that held things together and people stayed together. And after she passed, there were a lot of things that started out coming from people that I just didn’t want to be part of. But while she was alive, it just -- she was really the center of all of it. JJ: So now you have like a different grouping of friends? CAC: I do. JJ: (inaudible). CAC: I do. I have my own group of friends that helped me actually through my mom’s passing. When my mom was diagnosed with brain cancer, she was married [00:39:00] to Juan, and Juan hit a very depressive state. They told us that my mom had six months to live, and several months into her treatments and after her surgery, he committed suicide. And it was very devastating. He was the person for her. And suddenly, I was -- even though I was a grown up, I was thrown into an adult position where I had to become a person for her. F1: Sure. How old were you at that time? CAC: I was 35, maybe. Right before she was diagnosed, I was recently engaged and I was planning a wedding. And then this happened. It was like a week later when 27 �she was diagnosed with this. She was always my confidant. I shared everything. Even though I was grown, living in my own [00:40:00] place, raising my son, I would still go and spend weekends by her. And I lived in the same city, but I wanted my mom, so I would always be with her. So suddenly when I didn’t have that confidant because I didn’t want to share my emotions with her, I had a close group of friends that supported me kind of the way my mom supported me. And to this day, my friends are just -- they’re wonderful. They’ll do my cancer walks with me in my mom’s name. JJ: You organize the cancer walks, right? CAC: Yeah. JJ: I haven’t been to any of them. I’m sorry. But how are they like? CAC: We’re surrounded by people who either knew my mom, or didn’t know her, but were moved by her through me. JJ: [00:41:00] And (inaudible) your mission, I guess. CAC: But were moved by her through me. When she was sick, I started sending out weekly updates to people ’cause it was my way of sharing what was going on -“Don’t call the house, don’t talk to mom, let me just tell you what it is, and let me get it out.” And it started from there. And my mom and I had gone on a cancer walk before she was sick, and she loved it so much. We did it for my boss at the time, his four-year-old daughter was diagnosed with cancer, and we did the cancer walk for her. So when the next year came around, and mom had been diagnosed, I changed it and we created a group called Angie’s Fighters. So it was all of her people that supported her. And mom didn’t want to be the center 28 �of attention. She argued it, she did not want it. But when she was there, it was good. We all had shirts that had her picture on there, and just -- we supported her. And then it kinda grew from there. People who I met through the years learned about what I did or I told them what I was doing, [00:42:00] and they would tell me, “I’m so sorry I never met your mom, but I’m gonna do this. I want to be a part of this with you.” And they’re still around which is great. JJ: So that’s still done every year? CAC: Yeah. JJ: I just missed it again, right? When is it? CAC: Yeah, we just did another one. JJ: When is it done? CAC: It’s normally in May. For several years, we did it through the American Cancer Society, and this last year we did it through the Brain Tumor Association because her cancer was specific to brain tumor. JJ: Is it like first week of May? CAC: They change it. This past year they changed it to like two weeks early. JJ: But they usually do it in May? CAC: Normally do it the middle of May, yeah. And we all wear our shirts, and rah, rah, and it’s great. JJ: So tell me a little bit more about Rico’s. CAC: [00:43:00] Rico’s? JJ: Yeah. Did you go to the club? 29 �CAC: Oh, I was always there. That was my club. (laughter) But I loved it because at the time I could go out and have a good time, but I was in a safe place. Everybody knew me, I was Angie and Juan’s daughter, and I could have a drink and go upstairs and go to sleep. JJ: Who were some of the people that used to go frequently that you recall? CAC: Oh, wow. All of the normal people. I mean all the people I grew up with. But then I remember one of the best parties we ever had there was with some of your family -- [Calisto?]? JJ: Oh, yeah, Calisto. CAC: Yes. And all of your family was there, and we had a party with them. It was called [Pisces?] Party, (laughter) and it was a disco theme. And one of your family members had this big afro, they wore one of the wigs. (laughter) Just this big afro. JJ: Okay, so they would joke around a lot? They were friendly. CAC: Yeah. There was always a theme, there was always something going on, but it was a safe place. [00:44:00] You were part of something when you were there. You know, when you watch Cheers, when Norm walks in, everybody yells, “Norm!” It was kind of like that. (laughter) Everybody knew who you were and nobody bothered you. So I would even bring my girlfriends there because as women, young women, who are single, you don’t necessarily want to go out to a club that you don’t know, but at Rico’s, you were safe. You could dance with all the uncles, you can have a good time, and you knew that you were okay. You didn’t have to think or worry about anything, and that’s what Rico’s was. 30 �JJ: And you say uncles meaning Angie’s close friends? CAC: All the extended -- yeah. Remember, my mom had no brothers. JJ: The extended Young Lords? (laughs) CAC: Yeah, my mom had no brothers or sisters, so all these aunts and uncles were people just that I grew up with. It wasn’t the blood, it was who they were in my life, and it’s still like that. JJ: I mean they weren’t all Young Lords. I mean (inaudible). CAC: No, they were just all her -JJ: But they were either Young Lords, or friends, or -- CAC: All her friends. JJ: All her friends, [00:45:00] Angie’s friends. CAC: Yeah. We didn’t grow up with a lot of blood family because the Sicilian family had shunned my mom other than her parents. So our family, our growing up was filled with aunts, and uncles, and cousins that were friends at one point in time and just became part of our normal day to day. JJ: But Angie did go to the Sicilian festivals, didn’t she? CAC: Oh, yeah. We did that. It’s mixed emotions. We have this annual festival we go to, and we pray to the Virgin Mary. When we were going on as children, we were the only minorities, so us kids stuck out, you know? You had all the salt and you had like five peppers (laughter) ’cause there were five of us, and we stuck out. We stuck out. And we were different, and we didn’t know why we were different, we didn’t know what was wrong. But my mom never -- [00:46:00] she never told us that her family -- she had family members (audio cuts out; inaudible). They 31 �didn’t acknowledge her, we didn’t know that. Now I see that and it bothers me, you know, that they treated my mother like this. But she never allowed it to affect what she was doing. She made some choices and she stuck by her choices. We didn’t miss anything by not having them involved in our lives ’cause we were raised with so much more, and it was real. You know, when you have a family member, you love your family member because they’re your family member. But when you grow up with friends that become family, it’s because this relationship has grown and just -- it’s beyond the blood. And that’s really what happened to all of our relationships. F1: Well, I have a question. So do you share these memories, this context, [00:47:00] with your son? What do you tell him about your mom, and her work, and the Young Lords? CAC: I do. I always tell him that he was no idea what amazing -- what an amazing grandmother he had. I can’t share a lot of stories about my dad because I don’t remember my dad. He died when I was two, so I only can do a lot of the hearsay, but I share -- I tell him the things that she fought for, the things that he doesn’t realize, he doesn’t know. All people, as they’re coming into their own, start having their own feelings and try to stay away from things that mom likes or mom wants ’cause I did that. You know, mom was involved with this, I’m doing this. And that’s what my son does now. He has not yet grown into the appreciation of what his grandmother has done other than it was normal for him because that was his grandma. Grandma loved him beyond anything, and he can’t imagine she was anything to anybody else because that was his grandma. 32 �JJ: [00:48:00] I know (inaudible) something else, but she did certain things, you said, that you tell your son? CAC: For me, I always felt -- and this was only in my head, though -- I felt that the Young Lords were political, in my mind, because I didn’t know what all of it stood for. All I knew was mom was involved with this, but mom didn’t include us. JJ: So political meaning what? What do you mean? CAC: As a kid, I just thought political. And I lumped everything in political. I lumped Republican, Young Lord, Democrat, I lumped it all together just because mom was fighting for something. JJ: And we did have a alderman campaign. We did things. CAC: So maybe that’s what -- but I just always thought political. JJ: Wilton and Grace was the alderman campaign. CAC: Okay, so that’s probably how -- I never thought of that’s how I related them, but I just always related that being political, [00:49:00] so I stayed away from anything political. I didn’t voice my opinions, I didn’t, you know -JJ: Said, “I’m not voting now.” (laughs) CAC: Well, I voted, but I always kept it to myself. And now my son pushes me. He pushes my boundaries because now I’ll stand up. I’ve got Obama on my refrigerator, (laughter) and I have a sticker called, “Not a Republican,” on my refrigerator, (laughter) and me and my son fight, but we do it quietly ’cause he’ll put a magnet over my “Not a,” and it says, “Republican,” and I always have to move it. So we’re fighting. “Not a” -F1: Just antagonizing. (laughs) 33 �CAC: Yes, he does it on purpose to me, but I’m not political. And I always try to remind him of politics is something very personal, and that’s not something you really ask about or you bring up to somebody else because my son is ready to battle when it comes to his feeling of politics. But it’s opposite of me, so we don’t go there. He doesn’t understand it just yet. F1: [00:50:00] It sounds like his politics might also be different than his grandmother’s. (laughs) CAC: Yeah, very, very. ’Cause I even tell him, “If your grandma were here today, you just” -- You know, Nona -- “If Nona were here today, you just don’t know.” But he has to grow into his own. My mom never pushed it on us, so just like that, I’m allowing him -- I’ll answer the questions, or if he says -- I remember one time he said, “Mom, I want to go and do” -- he wanted to go do the walk for Mexicans. I forget what the rallies were here in Chicago several years ago. And I allowed him to miss school to go attend the rally. And I think it was for the Mexicans that weren’t citizens and wanted to be able to work, and I allowed him to do it. I want him to understand it. I want him to understand why -- you know, what democracy really is and what freedom really is because when you’re born into it, you don’t know it. [00:51:00] It just becomes so normal, you know, and that’s what happened with me. It became so normal that I didn’t realize everything else that was going on around me. JJ: And, in fact, your husband is of Mexican descent? CAC: My husband is Puerto Rican -- well, this is my second marriage. My first husband was Mexican, my second husband is Guatemalan and Puerto Rican. 34 �JJ: Oh, Guatemalan. Okay. CAC: Yeah. JJ: So these demonstrations had to do with not all Guatemalans, but some Guatemalans and some Mexicans. CAC: Yeah, but he wanted to do it, so I support it. As long as he truly believes in something, and he can tell me why, I’ll support it because that’s the only way he’s gonna realize for himself who he is or what he wants. He needs to find it for himself. [00:52:00] Like I said, I don’t talk politics even in my house just because I want my son to have his own vision. And he has a vision, and I have to steer him a little bit, (laughter) but I’m trying to do it quietly. F1: Start with the magnets. CAC: Yes. (laughter) He doesn’t realize all of it. JJ: Like you said, you still had people to get together, your peer groups. How do you develop in terms of your peer groups? CAC: How do I? JJ: Yeah. Maybe that’s -- CAC: The funny part -- I’ve never been a leader. JJ: I mean [relax?]. CAC: Well, I’ve never been a leader. You know, I always wanted to be in the background. And I took a lead role with my group of friends, I have about 20 female friends, and I took the lead with these women, and we get together on a monthly basis. JJ: Who are some of these people? Just the first names. 35 �CAC: Goodness. [00:53:00] I have [Sonia?], Jenny, Gigi -- it’s a mix of people. Somebody from New York, somebody -- you know, I have one girlfriend who is of Irish descent, but you meet her and you think -- she’s like my mom. You would think she’s Latin (laughter) completely. And she speaks it, and she’s married to it, you know what I mean? So it’s just a mix of people. And it’s probably the only place I take the lead and I feel comfortable. I’ll organize it, I’ll plan things for just us as women to go out and have one night a month where we can talk. Go out for dinner, have a few drinks, and talk about anything we want to talk about, do whatever we want to do, and that’s our let down our hair day. But then we also plan things for families. So I kinda feel like my mom right now. (laughter) We do, we plan things for families. I include the kids. F1: That’s great. CAC: Yeah. JJ: So that’s your group right now? CAC: That’s [00:54:00] my group. JJ: What other things do you remember about Rico’s? CAC: About Rico’s? JJ: Yeah, that was kind of important. That was a phase during that time. CAC: There was a phase, but do you know what? I wasn’t living there. So when I would go over there, I would see -- I remember my mom having a box of photos of all these Young Lords. All these different things, all these photos of different -JJ: What happened to that box? CAC: My brother, Joe, has it in Florida. 36 �JJ: Okay, ’cause we might (inaudible) -- CAC: I can ask him. We gave it to Joe because Joe was the oldest and Joe remembered more than we did. JJ: No, no, we just want to see if we can make the copies. F1: If Joe would be willing to scan copies. CAC: Okay, let me ask him. F1: Yeah, definitely ask him. CAC: He’s the one that we decided to give the whole box to just because he remembered more of the names, he remembered -JJ: Yeah, we just want a copy. CAC: I don’t know [00:55:00] if he still has it, but I remember he had a Young Lords’ beret. He remembered all that ’cause he remembered my dad. We don’t remember my dad at all. But I will ask him. JJ: Do you remember anything? I mean what does he tell you about him? CAC: He doesn’t talk -- Joe is the quiet one. I think Joe felt the impact most with my dad dying young. He was the oldest, and suddenly his dad, his friend, wasn’t there anymore. So I think he just felt that impact. And he’s probably the one who least -- you don’t see him around, he moved to Florida, but he didn’t -- as we were growing up involved in all the parties and stuff and such, he didn’t participate in any of that ’cause I think he might have related to my dad passing away not necessarily knowing everything around why he passed away -- he relates that to -JJ: [00:56:00] He never mentioned -- I know it’s kind of difficult to talk about. 37 �CAC: No, that’s okay. JJ: He never mentioned what happened? CAC: I didn’t know until I was older what happened. JJ: So what did you know? CAC: That my father was walking along the street with my uncle and my aunt -- or my uncle’s girlfriend, I don’t know what she was at the time -- and they were passing by a pool hall -- and this is was my uncle who relayed this information to us who was there. And the gentlemen came out of the pool hall and were taunting my dad and my uncle. My dad was dark-skinned Puerto Rican, and they were taunting racial slurs to them. And the men weren’t saying anything, but my aunt turned around and made a response to them, and then a fight broke out. They came out. And, apparently, the police arrived in a paddy wagon, and threw my uncle in the paddy wagon. [00:57:00] My uncle was older than my dad, my dad was the baby. And they allowed a gentleman or a few gentleman to beat my father. The police allowed this while my uncle was in the paddy wagon. And my uncle, before he passed away, what he said was, “You have no idea what it felt like.” He said, “I felt like I was an animal locked in a cage, and here they are beating my brother, and there’s nothing that I could do.” And then when it was over, my father, he died as a result of the injuries. They threw my father, his body, in there with my uncle. He was still alive at the time, but they threw him in there with my uncle. And it affected my uncle because my uncle never recovered from that. He never grew up. He was always in the park, he was always at 38 �Humboldt Park. I don’t know if he did drugs, I think he drank, but I don’t know if he did drugs. JJ: I think he drank. CAC: He never grew up. JJ: [00:58:00] So he hung around Humboldt Park, you mean? CAC: Yeah, he was just -JJ: Was he homeless? CAC: I think kinda homeless and then bounced around. But he said that his father never forgave him for my father’s death, so he carried that with him until he died. He never passed it, kind of like it froze in that time. JJ: To add to that so that you know -- and we were going to court because we were trying to get the people arrested and put in court, and Angie was leading a lot that. And the courtrooms were full. The Young Lords were filling up the court rooms and that. But nothing happened. No one was arrested that -- CAC: Nobody was convicted. JJ: So you heard some of that, too? CAC: I did hear that. I remember reading an article -- [00:59:00] and I think this was probably when I first started asking questions. There was an article that was published, and it mentioned my dad -- his beating, his death -- and I remember so clearly and they said my mom was away at a women’s conference in Canada at the time. She had four children, not a high school graduate, she was at a conference, and she received a phone call that she needed to come home. And the article said that she arrived home, she was at the airport, and Hilda was 39 �there, and Hilda had to tell my mom what happened to my dad, that my dad didn’t make it. And he ended up passing away the day before my brother’s third birthday. JJ: I know it was right after that you went to that school. CAC: Yeah, see? JJ: (inaudible) school, but she decided to go, (inaudible). CAC: My dog’s knocking on the door. Do you hear her? (laughter) [01:00:00] But, yeah, so that I do -- after we saw the play, I remember Hilda telling me -because Hilda was there at the play -- and Hilda said, “You know, I was the person who was there.” But mom never talked about it. JJ: So how did you feel about the play? CAC: Wow. You know, what I remember from the play was the young man who played my father, when they did the scene where they pretended to beat him and he fell to the floor, all I wanted to do was go up and hold this man. You know what I mean? When you hear the stories, there’s no real picture to it. There’s nothing. You hear the stories, and it’s like, “Okay.” But there’s no photo, there’s nothing. And for the first time, there was a photo to what had happened and the things that were going around surrounding that. It was very emotional. JJ: I saw (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, it was very -- [01:01:00] I was taken aback. I didn’t know what to expect. I mean I knew they were going to do the play, but I didn’t know -- I didn’t know what I was gonna feel. And it was just, you know, “Wow, this really happened. This was my dad. This was my mom. This was Ch -Cha. This was” -- I could 40 �name the people, who they were talking about. That’s when it all kinda comes full circle, and wow. That’s when you realize, “Okay, there’s a lot more going on over here than I remember.” JJ: And, in fact, what Angie did, your mom did, and your father, and all that, spread to a lot of other cities. Matter of fact, right now they play at (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, I wanna go. JJ: (inaudible). CAC: I wanna see the play. JJ: It’s gonna be there till November. I guess they’re trying to get some other things in there. It’s gonna be there till November. CAC: [01:02:00] People asking about what your parents do or what your parents have done, and I just find it amazing that my mom was a staple for something somewhere, but, yet, she was mom. We had dinner on the table every day, you know? She never missed a beat. JJ: You know, I do have her on the website, and I did that intentionally because I didn’t want -- that’s sort of our commitment that we’re not gonna let her -- just forgotten her work. Hopefully, that doesn’t -- CAC: No. JJ: That’s okay with you. CAC: Oh, yeah. I love that people look at my mom, and I love that people are remembering or talking about what she did. None of that phases me at all. I’m proud of my mom. I ended up growing into not just a daughter, but just some -you know, I had a hero [01:03:00] in my house that did these amazing things, but 41 �it wasn’t the glory, she didn’t talk about it, she didn’t want to be patted on the back, she just -- she just did it. And I would ask her questions, later on after the play, and just got to know more about her and how she did it. I mean when you think about it, here she was, nineteen, four kids, a widow -JJ: On food stamps. CAC: On food stamps, living in what wasn’t necessarily her, you know what I mean? She chose this is the life she wanted to live. She could’ve lived something different. You know, typical in those days, they wanted to marry my mom off, and she would have been married to a Sicilian man. I wouldn’t be here. (laughter) But she chose different. And for her to go through all of that and still [01:04:00] come out -- you know, she ended up getting remarried, she ended up having one more child who’s autistic. She never let any of that slow her down. And he’s different. He doesn’t know he’s different, we don’t talk about it, we just do whatever we need to do. That’s what mom taught us. You just do whatever you need to do, and that’s what makes it okay. JJ: What about her work? Was it Palmer Square? CAC: Palmer Square where she did the -JJ: How did that happen? How did that come about? CAC: Originally, I don’t know how she got into property management. She was managing in a property in Rogers Park off of Howard and Ashland. The buildings over there were populated with a majority of African American or -- yeah, I think I said that right. F1: You did. 42 �CAC: Okay. Populated [01:05:00] mostly with that. And all of a sudden, they gave her an opportunity to manage this complex that was Hispanic -- majority Hispanic -and that’s what she did. And she brought in -JJ: Was it like Section 8 housing? CAC: Yeah, a lot of Section 8. They had several apartments that weren’t Section 8, but maybe 90 percent of it was lower-income. JJ: And, in fact, the company is pretty well known for trying to get Section 8 housing, low-income housing. CAC: Yes. JJ: So the company -- CAC: The funny piece is my husband ended up working for the same company that my mom was with, and he was at the first site where she was at -- at Northpoint on Howard. JJ: Oh, he was over there? CAC: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so she’s managing the -- CAC: She managed it, and she brought in -- she kind of created a -- it was a community there. She was part of it with them. She wasn’t the Sicilian, [01:06:00] she was one of them. And she did everything she could to make it better for everybody. She brought it in a lot of programs, and they loved her. I remember when she passed away, they bused in -- they rented a bus to bring in tenants from the building who wanted to come to her wake. And they all said, “Your mom” -- there were so many stories. It doesn’t feel real, but when you 43 �think back to some of these conversations just that day -- “Your mom was just so amazing. She gave me the chance, and now I’m doing this,” or, “Your mom did that.” My mom didn’t talk about it, though. JJ: These are the tenants? CAC: These are tenants, yeah. JJ: That were talking about her? CAC: Yeah. “Because of your mom,” “Because of your mom,” “Your mom this,” “Your mom that.” It came at a really good time ’cause I needed that, [01:07:00] but it was just -- it was wonderful to see how much my mom was loved and respected by people. JJ: And you took it kinda hard at that time, too. How are you doing now? Any better? CAC: I’m good. I mean, you know, she became my life for two years, and we lived in the same building. I remember waking up early every morning to have coffee with her so she wouldn’t wake up by herself. We had dinner together every night. I mean she just became such -- every day with me. And even when she was in the hospital, I would sleep in the hospital. My job was wonderful. I would either go in real early and then go back with her so when it was time to eat I was with her, or I would go in in the evenings to work, and they allowed me to do that to take care of my mom. And suddenly when mom passed, [01:08:00] you know, my whole -- I felt like my -- like I hit a wall ’cause nothing was the same. I didn’t know what to do with myself anymore ’cause she wasn’t there. And then, you know, you’re thrown into a role where now what do I do? Suddenly I’ve got my 44 �brothers looking at me, I’ve got my youngest brother who’s autistic (audio cuts out; inaudible) to him. Yeah, she was everything, and how do I step into those shoes? What do I do now to make it seem seamless for him? He was gonna hurt, but I didn’t want for him to be so hurt that he couldn’t keep going forward because she wanted him to keep going forward. And now you see him and you - you know, he misses her, but everything in his life is still the same. We have pictures of mom in the house, he knows mom is around us, [01:09:00] he works, he just -- he’s a man. JJ: He’s working now? CAC: Yeah. JJ: What kind of work? CAC: He does groceries at the corner. The Jewel food store where we -- you know, we picketed Jewel as children, (laughter) but he was working for Jewel, and he’s -JJ: Didn’t Alex work at Jewel, too? CAC: He does. Not the same one, but a different one. But Rico’s good. He’s going to be with me the rest of my life, and I have to -- I always do what mom would want for him. Doesn’t matter anything else, it’s like, “What would mom want for him?” I’ll remind him, “You know, Rico, you’re an adult, you’re a grown man, what do you want to do? You tell me what you wanna do.” ’Cause mom was very -- mom fought for him. When he was born, he -- they classified him as being borderline [01:10:00] mentally retarded, and mom fought it. Mom said, “We know there’s a problem, that’s not what the problem is.” And she had him tested, and retested, 45 �and she fought long and hard for him. And he finished high school, you know, he did it. He did it. Although I get nervous when he takes off on his bike. JJ: I know he’s on the computer. CAC: Oh, he’s always on the computer. JJ: On the computer, yeah. CAC: He loves his computer. (laughter) He’s got every toy imaginable up in his room. He doesn’t need anything. F1: That’s good. CAC: Yeah. I hope that mom -- that part of what we do is mom’s legacy, you know what I mean? I hope that. We’re not the same, but, hopefully, in some of what we do, people can say, “You know what? You were your mother’s child there.” (laughs) Nothing is more complimentary to me than for someone to tell me, “You are so your mother.” [01:11:00] As a kid, you’re like, “No, I’m not my mother.” But now it’s like, “Wow. Thank you. (laughter) Tell me a story.” JJ: What else do you think we should say about your mom? CAC: My mom. She was a firecracker. I remember stories of her, too. She would go out and she always stood up for somebody who wouldn’t stand up for themselves. She didn’t care who it was. Juan would tell us stories. He would say, “Your mother, (laughter) we went out last night, and some guy was picking on another guy, and your mom spit at him,” and I’m like (laughter) -- he goes, “I know.” He’s like, “Angie, you’re doing this, and this guy’s gonna wanna fight me.” And all she said was, “But did you see how he was treating so and so?” That’s all that mattered to her [01:12:00] was that people were treated fair and proper. 46 �That’s all that mattered to her. And she actually told me that she learned that from her dad. My grandparents were much older, they had her later in life, and my grandfather told her, “You know, everything around you, when you hear these people talking about, ‘They’re not us, they don’t fit in,’” he said, “If you go in a war with somebody, then they deserve everything that you have.” And mom said that’s what she always remembered. That everybody was the same. If they’re gonna battle together, then they deserve all the same rights, and she stood up for that. And that’s probably why when she chose to marry a Hispanic, my grandparents supported her because, “You know what? This is what she wants.” And it’s okay if their families weren’t gonna talk to them anymore, this was their daughter and they were gonna support their daughter. JJ: [01:13:00] Did she ever say why she married -- they were all Hispanics, but AfroHispanics. CAC: They were all dark Latinos. (laughter) She loved that. She did, I swear. (laughter) All of them. All three of them. They were all dark, and had the real little short curly hair. I don’t know if my dad had an accent, but I think (inaudible) had an accent, and Juan had an accent. JJ: No, he didn’t -- CAC: (inaudible) didn’t have one? JJ: Well -- CAC: Juan did. JJ: You mean your dad? CAC: Well, okay, did my dad have an accent? 47 �JJ: No, he -- CAC: He didn’t? JJ: A street accent. No, he grew up here. CAC: But I think both of my stepdads had somewhat of an accent. And you know what’s funny is they never spoke Spanish in the house when we were kids. We didn’t grow up bilingual. JJ: Okay. [01:14:00] Rory, myself, Raul -- CAC: I saw him recently. JJ: Those are people from our group with your dad. So he was like that. CAC: I saw Raul recently. JJ: You saw Raul? CAC: I was at a concert, and I chased him ’cause I saw the side of the him, and I chased him down the -- we were at (inaudible). JJ: Oh, yeah. Actually, I’ve been to (inaudible) with the (inaudible). A couple of times we got tickets to go there. CAC: That’s great. He was there, so it was fun to see him. JJ: And you went by Carlos, too? You saw Carlos or something you told me? CAC: Carlos Flores? JJ: Yeah. CAC: I see him everywhere. JJ: ’Cause he does the jazz -- 48 �CAC: Yes. Yeah, he was at the Humboldt Park jazz -- I have a friend who plays saxophone in a jazz band, Latin jazz. And they were playing that night, and that’s where I saw Carlos. JJ: So are you just into these concerts now? Is that what you’re doing? CAC: Yeah, I mean one of my girlfriends who I hang around with, her husband [01:15:00] is in the band. JJ: Okay, so you just follow the band? CAC: Yeah, he’s gonna play, and we just go, and then I end up seeing -- you know, you don’t think you’re gonna run into anybody, and my husband’s like, “You always see people.” (laughter) JJ: I know you like to party ’cause one time I came here and opened the door downstairs and (laughs) -- CAC: Yeah, we have parties. JJ: It was wild. It was a wild party. (laughs) CAC: We have parties. The group that’s involved with the play in Oregon-JJ: It mean it was very respectful, but it was loud. Everybody was (inaudible). CAC: Oh, yeah. They were here for -- what play were they doing? They were doing a play here in February. JJ: Oh, you mean Universes (inaudible)? CAC: Universes, yes. They were doing a play over here. JJ: That was recently, yeah. CAC: And they came to my house, and we were having a party at my house. And it was our beach party in the middle of February, we call it our winter barbecue. 49 �And, matter of fact, I carried that down from my mom ’cause my mom would celebrate her birthday which was in February, [01:16:00] and they would do a summer party in February. So we do a winter barbecue which is our version, and they came for that night. And they were here with Melissa -- your daughter was here. And we had a big winter barbecue with all my friends. It was wonderful. JJ: My daughter was here? CAC: Your daughter was here. JJ: So that had to be a pretty crazy party. CAC: She was actually really -- she was quiet. (laughter) She was quiet. I think when she walked in, she wasn’t quite sure what she was walking into, and they weren’t quite sure ’cause I said, “All my friends are coming over, we’re having a party, you’re in town, come on over.” And they’re like, “Oh, well, it’ll be late.” I’m like, “No, no, no. We’ll still be up.” “What do I bring?” “Nothing, nothing. We’re good, just come.” And it was like 11 o’clock at night, and my husband started grilling on the stick in the middle of winter hamburgers for them because it was our winter barbecue. And by the time they left, they just said, “Oh, my God. Your party is absolutely wonderful.” (laughter) Yeah, they loved it. I’m on Facebook with all of them, [01:17:00] and to this day, one of them -- (inaudible)? JJ: Ninja? CAC: No, Ninja’s the younger brother. JJ: Right. And then you have -- [Steven?]? CAC: There was another gentleman from New Orleans. [Steven Staff?] is her husband. 50 �JJ: Oh, (inaudible). CAC: He emailed me recently via Facebook and just told me -- you know, “Hope everything was” -JJ: (inaudible) is his name. CAC: Okay. He had hoped everything was going well. He said, “And by the way, I’m still thinking about your party, (laughter) and how wonderful it was.” Another spirit of mom in me is that party. (laughter) JJ: What other thing that you feel is important about your life? CAC: My life. JJ: This is about you talking about your mom. CAC: I wouldn’t change it for anything. Now what I know I probably would have [01:18:00] asked more when I was younger, but when mom didn’t talk about it or kept it away from us, we didn’t ask any questions. But now I would like to know more about how she felt, and why she did certain things, and kinda walk through all of that with her. I would have liked to learn more about all that part of her life that she kept away from us kids. But I wouldn’t change it. JJ: Do you think it was that she was probably protecting you -- CAC: Yeah, she was. JJ: But there wasn’t anything that she felt ashamed of? CAC: No, I don’t think it was shame, I think it was just more -- I think in the back of her mind, losing my dad very young and being with all of us kids, she just felt -- and seeing what a lot of -- at that point in time, a lot of what the Latinos were going 51 �through, she wasn’t going to lose [01:19:00] her children to anything. You know what I mean? JJ: Because she had that loss. Yeah, that’s what she had -- CAC: Yeah because she suffered her loss, she wasn’t going to lose her children. And maybe it was kind of along the lines of how I felt with my son, you know? Two strikes against him. He’s a Latino and he’s a male, and at that point in time, gangs in Chicago were really coming up. And it was always, you know, you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and so I think it was more all of that. M1: I have to get going. CAC: Okay. M1: I’m going to use your car. CAC: Okay. M2: I need your keys. CAC: My keys are in the other room. M2: Where? CAC: I don’t (inaudible). (break in audio) CAC: Sorry, she calmed down. JJ: Who is the new person in the black? CAC: This is my daughter, [Nika?]. She’s a little party girl, too. F1: Nika, you’re a beauty. CAC: Yeah. And she’s very protective. F1: That’s good. 52 �CAC: Yes. But, you know, going back to my mom, I think my mom probably felt the same way, [01:20:00] just that she wasn’t going to lose her children to any of that stuff, so she kept us away from it. Maybe she felt because she wasn’t a minority that, you know -- and being female it wasn’t going to be as hard for her, but for her children it was going to be hard. Like I said earlier, we were not bilingual. And I don’t know if it was her or if it was (inaudible) at the time, but they felt that - one of them felt that speaking Spanish was gonna hinder our future. JJ: I was gonna ask you about that. CAC: Yeah, they thought it was gonna hinder. And then now, it’s so a part of everything normal that it would have been a benefit. There are times, you know, when I was looking for job -JJ: I don’t think it was Angie that said that. CAC: You think it was him? JJ: I think it could have been (inaudible). CAC: They didn’t speak it. JJ: I think it was (inaudible) because -- but I mean I’m assuming -- CAC: No, that’s okay. JJ: But only because [01:21:00] there were issues there. There were issues there in terms of skin and some form of racism in Puerto Rico that -- where people are kind of sometimes almost ashamed of who they are. They kind of shame themselves. CAC: They only spoke it when they didn’t want us to know what they were talking about. 53 �JJ: And then when you think of the word Young Lords, you think of gang. Was that a -- CAC: No, see, for me, Young Lord was political. It wasn’t a gang. And to find out that you guys actually started out as a gang, a group of people, even that I was like, “What? (laughter) A gang?” “Well, yeah, Cathy, not the same kind of gang you’re thinking about.” But, you know, I just always thought it was political. JJ: Well, it definitely is not like the gangs of today, but that’s the image that people get. CAC: Exactly. Right. JJ: It was like a neighborhood [squad?]. CAC: It was a young group of [01:22:00] individuals who were together. JJ: Not that we didn’t (inaudible) -- CAC: No, but that’s okay. JJ: -- drinks, or beers, or weed, whatever. CAC: That’s okay. JJ: But we didn’t -- CAC: What was that? Weed? What? (laughter) JJ: That was (inaudible). (laughter) But -- CAC: Delete. (laughter) JJ: No, no. We’ll have to delete that. (laughter) You know what I’m saying? We were not a drug enterprise. CAC: Right. I mean we had everybody around us. If my mom was worried about the people she was with, then they wouldn’t have been around us. But we just didn’t 54 �know what it was. We knew that everybody was around, but we didn’t know what was going on. We didn’t know any of that. JJ: And what did you see? I mean some people do call us that, a gang. But what did you see? CAC: It wasn’t a gang. JJ: What type of people did you see? CAC: It was my family. It wasn’t a [01:23:00] gang. It was a family. The children were involved in everything that was going on. We were part of the parties, we were part of -- I don’t feel like things were hidden from us even though my mom didn’t tell us what she did. Nothing was hidden from us. We participated in stuff. We participated. It wasn’t a gang. For us, it was just normal. It was our life. It wasn’t anything but our life. JJ: So it didn’t have any semblance of a gang? CAC: No. It was nothing -JJ: To you. CAC: Yeah. JJ: What did it look like to you? CAC: It was just family to me. It wasn’t anything but family. There was nothing else there but family. That’s why when I heard more in life the things that you had fought for, what everybody had stood up for, I’m like -JJ: [01:24:00] What did you hear that had been fought for? CAC: For the community, for people who were being displaced from their homes, for people who weren’t being given opportunities. Those are things that you guys 55 �fought for. You were developing a community of people that weren’t developing themselves. They didn’t know how to develop themselves, really. There was nothing structured there for them to do it, and you guys were doing it. So it was normal. I can’t describe it as anything but that it was just my life. It was normal, and I wouldn’t change it. I wouldn’t change that we were in the mix of so many different things without even knowing it. I wouldn’t change that. Living in a suburb with a little picket fence? No. (laughter) No. I could still chant my boycotts (laughter) and [01:25:00] I was proud of my people. These are my people. I’m going to use Cha Cha as an example. To other people, Cha Cha is this amazing figure who led this cause, and still believes in this cause, and still fights this fight, and he fought through it for years. And I was like, “Cha Cha? Cha Cha was my uncle. I’m the godmother to your granddaughter.” (laughter) You know? It’s just family. It’s nothing other than family for me. But it’s just amazing how everybody else looks at it from the outside. I have a girlfriend who is from Brooklyn, and she has talked about Young Lords. And when I was telling her the history -- my version of the history and how the Young Lords started here, she loved it. And she talked to all the actors when [01:26:00] they were here at my party, if they bring that play over here, they’re gonna go to that play. JJ: I think they’re planning (inaudible). CAC: I hope so. I’m curious to see it. JJ: It plays there until November and then they plan to -- CAC: They’re hoping to come out? JJ: To at least bring it to Chicago and New York. 56 �CAC: That would be wonderful. But, yeah, my friends are amazed with it. Okay, back inside the house. (laughter) Sorry. Hi. F2: Vicious, vicious dog. (laughter) You are a killer. She is a killer. CAC: I know she is. (laughs) Stop it. You’re walking very good. F2: Huh? CAC: You’re walking very good. F2: So much better. CAC: Good. F2: So much better. CAC: Good for you. F2: It’s amazing. CAC: Enjoy your evening. F2: (inaudible). I see you. I see you through the screen. JJ: [01:27:00] What kind of final thoughts do you have? (inaudible) CAC: Okay, my final thoughts? JJ: (inaudible). CAC: Okay. Nika. She’s gonna go over the deck. F2: Yeah, I’m waiting. One of these days. CAC: She is. She climbs over to the edge, and one day she’s gonna slip. My final thought. It’s hard because I don’t know anything different than what I was raised in, but to know that my mom was a part of it, you know, and that she believed in it her entire life, truly her entire life, I’m in awe. 57 �JJ: You said she believed in it her entire life, [01:28:00] and you could tell that she was proud of it all the time? CAC: Oh, yeah. Even in the years where we may not have seen each other, as soon as everybody got together, it picked up like there was never any time between it. I remember you videotaping -- interviewing her on the deck on North Avenue. JJ: Right. (inaudible). CAC: It was just a part of her. It was truly a part of her. But it was normal. It was normal for us. JJ: Just the way of growing up? CAC: Yeah. And I wish that other children can grow up having memories of things that are outside of their home ’cause it does open your eyes to a lot, and I wish that other children could see that. JJ: Any special plans? Are you planning to stay here? CAC: [01:29:00] In Chicago, definitely. I’m always gonna be Chicago. Where we end up from here, though, you know, probably not here, this neighborhood itself. At one point in time, it was a lot of gangs in this neighborhood and it was a lower income. A lot of them have moved out -- condos. We’re sitting next to condos that run for $400,000, $500,000. They’re increasing my property taxes as we speak. (laughter) So we probably won’t stay here. But at the same time, I like being in the mix of everything. We’re close to everything. So I don’t know. I can’t picture anything different right now. 58 �JJ: How do you feel about -- I know you really didn’t remember it, living through it ’cause they had a house, your grandparents had a house [01:30:00] on Armitage. But I’m sure people have talked about it. The housing has improved, it’s not -- CAC: It’s improved for some, but other people lose. JJ: But how do you feel about poor people being displaced? CAC: I don’t like it. I don’t like it all. I don’t think it’s fair. What you’re building in one place, you’re bringing down someplace else -- intentionally, in my opinion, is what it is. JJ: Intentionally? CAC: Intentionally. JJ: But don’t you think it’s a way to get rid of the gangs? CAC: Well, no, because you got to put them some place, and you’re putting them all in one place, and now that place is going to be just as bad as the place where it started. It’s revolving. It’s not here, then it’s there. And once it’s not there, it’s there. It’s just gonna keep revolving, is what it’s doing. But I feel bad for those people who they spent their lives in a home [01:31:00] and they lose their homes. They can no longer afford it because of everything else that is being created around them. I don’t think that’s fair. I don’t know how it affected my grandparents when they lived on Armitage, but -JJ: But I’m sure they’re probably (inaudible). CAC: Oh, yeah. Yeah. JJ: Didn’t they sell and they moved up with Angie? 59 �CAC: No, they moved to New Jersey for a while, and then my mom sent for them to live with us. JJ: Okay, that’s what happened? But did they lose their house or did they sell it? CAC: I don’t know. I don’t know. I do recall what -- I’m talking about phrases. JJ: I know ’cause I used to have to paint. I used to have to paint for your grandfather. CAC: See? (laughter) The phrases of the daily machine? We were scared. We didn’t know what that was, but we knew we didn’t want to be around that. JJ: That’s a bad term. CAC: Yeah. All I pictured was one of those big wrecking balls, that’s what I pictured the daily machines. (laughs) [01:32:00] But it was normal, you know, things that we grew up with that we heard around us. JJ: Yeah ’cause your mother used to say urban (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, and we were like, “Oh, daily? Who’s that? (laughed) He was in charge of this.” JJ: No, it was (inaudible) or something. CAC: Yeah, we couldn’t pronounce it right. JJ: Yes, you would say (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, but all I pictured was that big wrecking ball. And we never saw one in real life, but that’s what I pictured. So leave it to a kid’s imagination. It was this big wrecking ball. And we just knew that Mayor Daley just wasn’t the right -- he wasn’t a good man (laughter) -- whoever he was. 60 �JJ: Your mother ran the group. I did have to -- for some demonstrations got incarcerated, and your mother ran the group -- was the only person ever to run the group, was your mom. [01:33:00] But what was my question? Now I lost my question. (laughter) CAC: Did she talk about it? Did we know? JJ: Yeah, can you sense that she was a leader? CAC: No. JJ: With the people that come around, they didn’t look up to her? CAC: Maybe they did, but she was mom. JJ: But I mean wasn’t there a lot of respect towards her or from the group? CAC: Yeah, but you respected my mom or mom was gonna kick your ass. (laughter) JJ: She definitely would do that. CAC: Right. Mom didn’t hesitate to tell you what she was feeling. It was just normal. I’m telling you, she wasn’t anything but our mom. You weren’t anything but Cha Cha. You know what I mean? You guys made it so normal for us that we didn’t know what was going on around us. Had no idea. No idea at all until you read the books -- “Cha Cha got arrested? (laughter) When was this?” You know what I mean? I didn’t know. JJ: So there was a little [01:34:00] gasp in between or -- CAC: When you look up things now. JJ: You know, in grapevine. In the grapevine, this is what happened. 61 �CAC: Well, when you look it up online, it’ll talk about -- you look up some of the history on certain things and you’ll see things like that. Mom never talked about that stuff. JJ: She never did? CAC: Never ever. I knew you ran for an alderman, and I’m assuming it was Uptown, and that’s all I remember. And then I remember Helen Shiller, I know she’s still an alderman, and I remember her being with Slim. But, see, other than that, I don’t remember any of the politics. JJ: (inaudible). CAC: Yeah, I don’t remember any of the politics around it at all. JJ: How about the Harold Washington campaign? Do you remember anything? CAC: No, but I do -- when I was first legally able to vote, I did vote for him. I remember that. (laughter) JJ: But I mean did you know that we worked on his campaign? CAC: No. Mom didn’t -- [01:35:00] when she felt true to something, she did it, but she didn’t push it. She never pushed us kids to follow. JJ: Well, she pushed it, but not with her kids. CAC: Right, not with us kids. She wanted us kind of I think how I am with my son. I’m allowing him to make his own decision, his own choice, and that’s what she did with each of us. With all the politics going on now, oh. JJ: It’s kind of crazy, yeah. CAC: Oh, my God. Yeah, she’d be real crazy with this. (laughs) But everything was just normal. We didn’t know. We didn’t know anything. We knew the parties, we 62 �knew -- all the fun stuff we knew, but anything else behind it, if there was sadness behind it, we didn’t see it. You guys never showed it to us. JJ: Now, that’s good in one sense, but on the other sense, do you feel that’s because everybody knows each other from all those years, [01:36:00] same crowd, I know you have your own grouping of friends now, but every once in a while, they do come together whether it’s a wedding, or a funeral, or something, but do you feel that some of the members, some of these people have any shame? You don’t have -- CAC: Do they have shame? JJ: Do they have shame or they don’t want to talk about it? CAC: You know, since you put it that way, maybe some of them do because I don’t remember seeing some of the faces with the plays and some of get togethers. But I don’t know for what reasons they chose to -- whatever they chose, I don’t know why they chose what they have. JJ: To be honest, I even hear some negative things. Some negative thinking, or talk, [01:37:00] or could be my imagination. (laughter) CAC: Are they embarrassed? JJ: Yeah, I’m wondering if they’re embarrassed, if there’s any guilt feelings, any shame, if they’re worried about the gang because they’ve thrown that at us. I don’t know, I’m just trying to do find out ’cause you’re here, I’m not here. CAC: I don’t hear any of that, but maybe because my mom didn’t feel that way. Maybe that’s why I don’t hear it. JJ: No, she didn’t. 63 �CAC: That’s probably why I don’t. Mom never had guilt. JJ: When people mention the Young Lords, how do they mention it? CAC: I think a lot of the generation now, they don’t know it started here, and they don’t know the fight that you had here, the steps that you guys took here. I don’t think they realize that. I think that when they hear Young Lords, they think that it started [01:38:00] in New York because that’s where it became bigger at that time, but they don’t know that it started here and who was involved in that. They don’t know that. And my friends find it amazing that my mom was in -- when they hear about it, they find out it’s amazing she was involved in that. JJ: Okay, that’s your -- CAC: That’s my friends. JJ: Your friends, your peer group. But what about the older ones? Your uncles and aunts? CAC: None of them talk about it. I think my mom was really the only one in the immediate group that still held strong to what she felt. JJ: So they don’t talk about it? That’s what I mean. CAC: Yeah, none of them. JJ: Do you find that odd? I mean that they were involved and then -- CAC: Yeah. If it were me and I was involved in something like that, I would want people to know about it, and I would want to clarify, and I would want to talk about it as much as I could, and they don’t [01:39:00] talk about it. I’m not around a lot of them anymore. I’ll see them at functions. Of course, we don’t 64 �even talk about any of that, but, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. It is weird. I guess I didn’t think about it till you said it right now. That’s my son. It is weird. JJ: It is kinda weird though, right? CAC: Yeah. I wasn’t a part of it, but I know I talk about it with my son -- things that I’ve heard ’cause I want him to be proud of his grandparents and to really understand how he -- why we have what we have, why we’re at where we’re at, and how we got there. JJ: I mean there are some Young Lords that still talk about it, but then there’s a bunch of other Young Lords that come around here, that you know, that came around Angie, that won’t. CAC: Yeah, they didn’t. JJ: [01:40:00] And sometimes I think that maybe it’s -- you know, there was a lot -instead of interviewing I’m telling my story. CAC: That’s okay. JJ: But there was a lot of what I call repression (inaudible). They were trying to stop the group, they were afraid of the group ’cause it was challenging the -- CAC: The system. JJ: The status quo, the system. So you think now that you know that there’s a weird thing going on -- assuming, making assumptions that we shouldn’t, but what do you think? CAC: I don’t think they should feel that way. I could see that they may feel that way. I don’t think they should, though. I mean you guys didn’t do anything wrong. You guys had a cause and you made a difference. You made a difference for a lot of 65 �people, and that’s what they need to remember. Tt’s not a gang, it wasn’t a gang, it wasn’t the gang bangers that [01:41:00] we see in neighborhoods nowadays. It’s nothing like that, and they need to remember that. And maybe they’re not happy with their past, but they -- or maybe they did something else that led them to not be happy with their past, but mom was proud of her past. She was very proud of it. JJ: Any final thoughts? I asked you that earlier. CAC: No. My mom was an amazing person, and I’m glad she was raised the way she was and she did what she did ’cause it definitely made her a different person. People remember her. JJ: And now you got your own circle of friends, you’re an amazing person. CAC: I do mine on a different level. (laughter) On a very different level. JJ: Okay. CAC: Yeah. JJ: That’s it. CAC: Okay. JJ: All right, thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 66 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e8af58196d7a09867520b27e6a6db423.mp4 cf711dd7ba96f07c1a3973e055d73b0b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Cathy Adorno-Centeno vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Adorno-Centeno_Cathy Title A name given to the resource Cathy Adorno-Centeno video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Adorno-Centeno, Cathy Description An account of the resource Interview of Cathy Adorno-Centeno on August 24, 2012 by José "Cha-Cha" Jiménez and Melanie Shell-Weiss (identified in the transcript as "F1"). In the video, a Latina woman sits facing the camera and speaks to the interviewer who is off camera. Cathy Adorno-Centeno is the daughter of Angie Navedo-Rizzo, a Young Lord who also founded “Mothers and Others,” a sub-group within the Young Lords that organized around women’s rights issues. Born in Chicago, Ms. Adorno-Centeno describes growing up surrounded by Young Lords and in a home that was a central gathering for pot luck family dinners for members of the organization and their supporters. Following the brutal death of her Young Lord father Jose “Pancho” Lind, Ms. Adorno-Centeno and her brothers and mother went underground; staying at a rented farm near Tomah, Wisconsin that would become the Young Lords’ Training Camp. Her most vivid childhood memories are of the warmth and support she enjoyed as a member of the Young Lords community. It included block parties, farmworker pickets, demonstrations and social events held near or in the Young Lords headquarters on Wilton and Grace streets. She also spent time at Rico’s Club (which her mother owned) and enjoyed company for the Sunday pasta dinners in her home. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- (interviewer) Shell-Weiss, Melanie (interviewer) Audio Transcription Center (transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-04 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e1bb646ba3d9c01479b2c50716841e7.pdf 64f38880d1a6bbc237add67415786909 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Luis Garden Acosta Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/25/2012 Runtime: 01:59:23 Biography and Description Oral history of Luis Acosta, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on October 25, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: It was, what, a significant day? LUIS ACOSTA: It was a significant day for my mother and father, I’m sure, when I was born on March 17, 1945. But apparently, someone -JJ: And [who’s?] your mom and dad? LA: Apparently, more to the case, it was a day of great celebration for the nurses that were in the hospital because they were all, it seemed, Irish, at least wanted to be Irish. And so they were shouting and screaming at my mother that “He’s gotta be called [Patrick?], he’s gotta be called Patrick.” And my mother had no idea what they we’re talking about, but she kept hearing the word Patrick, and so that’s the name that stuck. So Luis Garden Acosta is this public figure that my family sometimes remembers as, oh, that’s Patrick, right. (laughter) But that’s the name, I mean, nobody obviously outside the family calls me Patrick, it’s -- JJ: And what was the date and --? LA: March 17 -- JJ: March 17, what -- LA: -- nineteen forty-five. JJ: -- nineteen forty-five, that’s right. LA: Right, [0:01:00] but it was -- JJ: And it was here, it was here? LA: It was right here in Brooklyn, and, you know, I’ve lived in Brooklyn on and off ‘cause, obviously, I went away for school and came back. But, I’m a child of the 1 �’50s who came of age in the ’60s and, slowly but surely, began to see that so many of us were oppressed. I lived in what was then the largest housing project in the world, Fort Greene houses, and certainly the poorest in New York City. The most violent in terms of gangs, the Mau Mau, Chaplains, and other gangs that were circling around it, so it was a very tough upbringing. My father died when I was seven, and the wind got knocked out of us. I mean I -JJ: You mentioned his name, right? LA: His name was Luis. JJ: Luis (inaudible) -- [0:02:00] LA: He’s Luis -- JJ: -- Junior? LA: -- [Agosto?], I’m Luis Acosta, kept the a in there. JJ: And your mom -- LA: But thank God -- JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: -- he wanted to make sure that I wasn’t a junior. JJ: And your mom? (laughter) LA: Good for him, thank you, Pop. JJ: And your mom’s name, Luis? LA: My mom is Maximina Acosta from Boquerón -JJ: And your -- LA: -- but everybody calls her [Mina?]. JJ: -- your siblings? 2 �LA: My sister is [Linda?]; I only have one sibling. She lives in Wisconsin with her husband, and she’s become a country bumpkin, they both have, although her husband would always tell me that he couldn’t get used to the country. He’s a real devoted aficionado of John Coltrane. He’s a medical doctor, African American, born and raised in Roxbury, much where I saw you last actually. And, you know, he would go in every weekend to Boston, [0:03:00] but he told me -not every weekend, every weekend of the John Coltrane Festival every year. And he told me the last time he went that he doesn’t know whether he’s gonna go anymore. I said, “Well, why not, [Edison?]?” He says, “Well, you know, I found the people to be rude,” (laughter) so he’s, kind of, gotten used to the country and the country ways so that -- she’s in Wisconsin. My mom died two years ago at the age of 97, and as I said, my father died when I was 7. Now, I can look at my birthday pictures, and I look at pictures throughout my life up to that point. I’m so well-dressed, I’m fat, I have, you know, every toy that you can imagine, I’ve got all the stuff we were living in, in the housing projects, of course. And that was due to the fact that, at the time of my birth, those housing projects had just been built for people involved in the war effort. And my father was a hard hat at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, [0:04:00] so he was eligible. So, it was like a first step for the working class in that part of Brooklyn. And it was very diverse, mostly white housing project, but by the time my father died, it was becoming more Black. And then of course as I became an adolescent, it became more an African American community and Latino community, so... JJ: And this was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 3 �LA: -- so I remember that -- JJ: -- what section of Brooklyn? LA: -- this is the -- it’s called Fort Greene. JJ: Fort Greene, okay. LA: And I remember that I began to realize this whole question of resources, economics, money when my father died because my mom would tell me in her suffering, long suffering of my father’s death. It was sudden. He never had gone to a doctor in his life -- oh, to a hospital rather in his life. And one day he’s not feeling well, he goes to the hospital, [0:05:00] a week later, he’s dead of rheumatic fever and pneumonia and complications. All of which he would not obviously die today, he’d recover and go home in a week, but in those days, the medicines that we take for granted today just weren’t there. So, we realized that we had no money, that all we had was a Social Security check, and at that point, that was less than what my mother could get on welfare. So that meant that I would have to wear army clothes from the Korean War to school because those were the hand-me-downs that my cousins, coming back from the war, would give me to wear. Means I couldn’t expect much at Christmas, if anything, and that I had to work to a paper route and other jobs that I took on to get presents for my daughter as – daughter, here we go -- my sister, who really felt like my daughter at that [0:06:00] point. Because I really had to look out for her so that she could get and have at least some of the things that I enjoyed when I was growing up. Christmas presents, all of that stuff, and I make sure she had them, but it was very tough. And I remember one day, my mother was very stressed out and 4 �didn’t know what to do. Everybody kept telling her, “You should go to the welfare department, you should go to the welfare department.” She didn’t wanna do it, but finally, she goes to the welfare department. Now, I saw my mother cry twice in my life -- the day my father died, and she was inconsolable, and the day that she went to the welfare department. She came back, you know, I hear fumbling in the door, I open the door, she’s crying, wailing away. I thought somebody had died. I said, “Ma, what’s wrong, what’s wrong?” She said, “I am never, ever, ever going back to those people, I am never going back. They treated me [00:07:00] like an animal, I will never, ever, ever go back to those people. We’re gonna somehow survive without them,” and she was so adamant about it. And I think the rage that I had against the welfare department started there, that moment. That what could they have done to my mother? How could they have talked to my mother in such a way for her to feel that way? I will never forgive whoever the bureaucrat was that did that. But the whole system was a mess, and I think that moment, the seed was planted in me to cast my lot with the poorest of the poor, and to mobilize and work to empower our community, people like my mom and the people I grew up with. I remember once, now that I think about it, the other moment in my life when I began to realize that the welfare department was something to be feared and [00:08:00] changed was one day when being taken care of... My mother went back to work at the factory, sewing machine, you know, like so many of our mothers, sewing undergarments and for very little money, by the way. And so I was being taken care of by the neighbor downstairs on the first floor, and she had other kids. And so there’s a knock on 5 �the door, and suddenly, she says, “Quick, hide him under the bed,” me. So I’m going, “What’s goin’ on here? Is somebody gonna shoot us or something,” you know?” I’m put underneath a bed, and one of her kids says, “Don’t you say a word until we tell you to come out.” Now, can you imagine -- I dunno, I must have been eight or nine, I forget [00:09:00] -- being hid under a bed without any explanation? I dunno if someone’s gonna come in with a gun and kill them, I dunno what is going on, I mean my imagination went wild. I mean, I just was praying to God that this would be okay. And I remember saying, “What, who was that?” He says, “It’s the investigator.” I said, “Who’s the investigator?” I said, “Who’s the --?” but, you know, they didn’t let me talk. They just told me to keep quiet until the investigator left, and then they said, “Okay, you can come out now, everything’s okay.” I said, “Well, what happened?” They said, “No, we can’t let the investigator see you.” I said, “Well, why not?” They said, “Well, because that’s the way welfare works.” “Welfare?” He says, “Yeah, you know, that’s how. ‘Cause, you know, our father died --” By the way mysteriously killed by somebody, they just found his remains on the street,” and a very nice family too. [00:10:00] “--and so we had to go on welfare, and, you know, they don’t allow Mom to have any other kind of money coming in. And since your mother pays my mother for a few dollars, she can’t tell them that because we need the money.” JJ: Why do you think your father was killed? LA: Their father? JJ: Oh, their father. 6 �LA: Their father. To this day, they don’t know, they just found his remains on the street, I have no idea, it was horrible, so anyway. Now, my dad died of natural causes, you know? JJ: Mm-hmm. LA: Unnatural today, but then of course, you know, without the medicines, a very common occurrence. So, I think that those moments in my life, you know, if you asked me what went on in my world to make me think that I wanted to do something about the injustice [00:11:00] that I saw. I think certainly the issue of the welfare department was big. Now, I remember once also that -- and this is kind of comical. You know, again, I was doing everything I could to make money, I mean I would sell Christmas cards, I would do all kinds of stuff I would sell. My mother would make handkerchiefs because that’s what she did in Puerto Rico to survive, you know, and I would sell those, door-to-door, and I had a paper route. So, I remember that the worst day for the paper route was a Wednesday because that’s the day that they put in all the advertisements and coupons and stuff. I said, “Oh, man, Wednesday, my arm would be dead,” you know, because I had to carry those things. And on this particular Wednesday, everybody is talking to each other, all the men that I would deliver this to and people on the street, about O’Malley and how horrible it was and cursing at him. And I’m saying, [00:12:00] “Who’s this guy O’Malley?” and I’m going like, “What is this all about?” Everybody was totally upset. So I finally asked somebody, I said, “Why is everybody upset about this guy, you know?” And he says, “Oh, it’s because he’s taking the Brooklyn Dodgers from us.” I said, “He can’t take the Brooklyn 7 �Dodgers from us. I mean that’s the Brooklyn Dodgers, I mean that’s Brooklyn, Brooklyn owns the Brooklyn Dodgers, right?” “No, Brooklyn does not own the Brooklyn Dodgers.” “Well, how come it’s the Brooklyn Dodgers?” “Well, kid, you know, you gotta grow up. The Brooklyn Dodgers are owned by one guy, his name is O’Malley, and he’s a bad guy, and he’s taking them to LA or somewhere in California.” And I said, “Oh, that’s not possible, how can one person own a baseball team? That’s insane.” I mean to my mind how can one human being own a community’s baseball team? It didn’t make any sense. Well, of course, I began to learn a little bit about capitalism then [00:13:00] and much to my horror. So, I think those, you know, moments in my life, and one very critical moment I think that really addressed it all was behind my thinking. It was a very early age, a young age, and I was in Catholic school. I went to Catholic school all my life, except for Harvard. Harvard was my first public school, and that’s how we Catholics talk about it, you know? JJ: Yeah, what was the name of this school, the Catholic school? LA: St. James. JJ: St. James. LA: St. James Pro-Cathedral because it was built as a cathedral -- as taking the place of a cathedral that was never built. So eventually, they threw in the towel and said, “Okay, it’s the cathedral, right, and now it’s a basilica,” so, but then, it was Pro-Cathedral. And, you know, one day, we’re going through The Sermon on the Mount. [00:14:00] And the sister is talking about what is sometimes referred to as The Last Judgment Gospel -- I think of it as the Community Gospel 8 �-- where Christ is talking and trying to describe what are the principles of a good life. When he says, “At the end of the world, people will be divided.” On this side will be one group, and on the other side will be the other group. And he will say to the group on his right hand, he will say, “Come beloved of my father, for you have given me to eat when I was hungry, you gave me to drink when I was thirsty, you sheltered me when I was homeless, you visited me when I was in prison or sick,” or what we call the seven corporal works of mercy in the Catholic church. [00:15:00] And, of course, some will say, “When did we do this? We never saw you, we never really did see you, so we couldn’t have done that.” He said, “Because you did it to the most oppressed, you did it to me.” Just, you know, those words, “‘Cause you did it to the most oppressed, you did it to me.” And then, of course, the other group, because you did not give me to eat when I was hungry, did not give me to drink when I was thirsty, did not visit me when I was in prison, in the hospital, et cetera. For you did not and -- treat me as a human being.” And they’re gonna say, “Well, we never saw you, we never did that.” “‘Cause you didn’t do it to the most oppressed, to the lowliest of us all, you didn’t do it for me.” And I was pretty shocked by that [00:16:00] because as the sister explained, that this was the basis on which people would go to heaven. And I’m going, “Wait a minute now, it’s not going to mass every Sunday?” “No.” “What about eating meat on Friday?” “No.” “Really? It’s not about the rosary every day?” “No.” “It’s not about the nine first novenas?” I got my list, you know. He said, “Well, all those things you’re supposed to do and you have to do, and of course, if you don’t, it’s a big sin, et cetera, et cetera. But what Christ is saying at 9 �that moment is that that is how you treat your fellow human being that is the basis of your eternal life.” And it said in the Gospel, how can you love God who you can’t see if you can’t love your neighbor who you can see? [00:17:00] I think that was the most indelible impression, and so -JJ: And how old were you then? LA: I was in grammar school. JJ: Grammar school. LA: Grammar school. So you had that and then the welfare incidence and then the O’Malley thing. See, all that happened in grammar school, so I’m like, “Oh, okay.” Now that I’m thinking about it, one other thing. I guess there’s many things when I’m -- you know, it’s funny, it’s interesting as I talk now, I’m beginning to see how this Young Lord happened. JJ: So who were your friends in grammar school? LA: Well, that’s what I wanted to say. My best friend was an African American. Now, I went to Catholic school, as I said, and one of the wonderful things about the school was that it was a working-class, mostly White school. But I say wonderful because I got to meet Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Polish Americans, and we were very, very tight. My best friend [00:18:00] was an African American, and it was interesting because he lived in Farragut Houses. And Farragut Houses were built, sort of, one step up, so we, kinda, looked at him like almost middle class, they were not at all. But, you know, like I lived in an apartment that didn’t have any separation between the living room and the kitchen, it was just one room, you know. Sometimes I didn’t have my own room, so I slept in this living 10 �room-kitchen thing. So they had separate bedrooms, they had a separate living room, they had a separate kitchen, a real one, so we said, “Wow,” you know. And His father worked for the FBI, of course later, I learned he was a clerk ’cause he wasn’t allowed to be anything else in those days. But the fact that he was an African American and was a clerk in the FBI was big for all of us and, of course, for the Black community. And the family was from the South. So we became very, very close [00:19:00] friends, and they would always invite me on vacations, Easter week, you know, stuff, full weeks, sometimes two weeks in the summer I think. I went down a lot, and the first time I went down, and I’ll never forget this, again, I’m in grammar school, about -JJ: What do you mean you went down in this --? LA: I went down with him to visit his family, you know, sort of on vacation, right? JJ: Okay. LA: And I’m going to Lexington, Virginia, to an all-Black community. There’s nobody white who lives in that part of Lexington, Virginia, so it’s an all-Black community. And it was wonderful, you know, nice house and nice hills around it and dogs, and we could really run around, and it was just natural. I mean I’m coming from brick and gray cement to a [00:20:00] very verdant place where people are just alive and connected, and it was such an exciting time. I loved [Jay?], and we were very tight. We were also very, very committed to science fiction, and we wanted to build a robot someday. I wanted to be a nuclear physicist, you know, [yeah, those?] craziness from watching science-fiction movies, right? JJ: Mm-hmm. 11 �LA: And there was one science-fiction movie that we missed, and I don’t know how because we were always on top of it, but somehow we -- I don’t know what happened. And I think it came from outer space or something like that, right? So we missed this, and we were like really jumping on each other’s back for whose fault it was not to be on top of it and who didn’t remind who. And we’re walking through town, through the main town, you know. Of course, the town is mostly white, right? And there it is, [00:21:00] the movie theater on Main Street, and there was the movie. And I go to Jay, “Jay, there it is, oh my God, and we’ve got money, we can do this, we can go” because we were going to the movies, right? and he said, “No, we can’t go.” I said, “What are you talking about? And your grandmother says it’s okay, we have the money to go to the movies, this is what we’re doing. Why can’t we go see this movie? This is the movie that we’ve been screaming about not seeing.” He says, “We can’t go in there.” I said, “What do you mean we can’t go in there? Look, come on, let’s do it.” He said, “No, we can’t go in there, talk to my grandmother, I can’t talk to you about this.” I said, “What are you talking about?” “I can’t talk to you about it, talk to my grandmother.” I says, “Oh.” I thought maybe it was polio or some disease, that’s how I thought, oh, it’s some kind of disease in there, somebody got it, and so he’s forbidden to go into the theater, and I get that, you know? [00:22:00] So that night, so we wound up going to, what, I think was called the National State Theatre to see The Lone Ranger. I’ll never forget that movie because I was so upset. I mean I like The Lone Ranger, but I was so upset that we didn’t see a science-fiction movie. So his grandmother was just one of the most loveliest, 12 �loving, caring woman I’ve ever met; she just exuded love. And I remember asking her, “[Mrs. C?], you know, we went to the movies today.” She says, “I know child.” I said, “Well, Jay and I love science-fiction movies, and we watch every one of them, and we saw this movie that we missed in New York. And I wanted to go and, and I don’t understand why we couldn’t go. And he said that we couldn’t go into theater, and he told me to talk to you about it. So what happened, somebody died there or something?” [00:23:00] She said, “Son, there’s a lot of good people in this world, a lot of good people, and they’re all different kinds of colors. But there are some bad people too, and a lot of them don’t like Black people, people of our color. And they’re not well, but they really don’t like us, and they don’t allow us to be with them. And so there are certain places that we can’t go, and so we have to be very, very careful here. It’s not like in New York City, you have to be very careful how you treat these people and that you know the places you can go and you can’t go.” And she looked at me, and I’m looking at her in disbelief. I didn’t know at that moment what I felt. I felt hurt, really hurt, [00:24:00] really, I almost wanted to cry. I felt anger, uncontrollable anger, a rage inside of me. I can remember almost trembling, but here, this woman who I loved was telling me this, so it had to be true, but in the United States of America? And this is happening, and there’s nothing we can do about it? JJ: Now what year was this? LA: I graduated from St. James Elementary School in 1958, so this had to be in the 1956 or 1957. You know, I don’t think it was my last year, it was not, it wasn’t my 13 �last year. So I was either 11 or 12, maybe around 11, and I’ll never forget that, I will never forget that. JJ: Why, did you feel it was you too, did you identify with him or --? LA: Oh, yeah, [00:25:00] I mean look at me. I was very clear from the very beginning that I wasn’t white, you know, and my father is a Black Dominican, although his niece, my first cousin would say he’s Indio. (laughter) F1: Right. LA: Oh my God, anyway, but, you know, he was a Black Dominican, and of course, so... My grandmother, who was the first woman who really, I remember as -after being born, besides my mom, obviously, and my dad, who took care of me, because my father sent for his mother to take care of me. And so that my fondest moments of being loved and cared for were by a Black woman. Of course, my first cousin said she’s Indio but -- and she’s got Indian features but she’s Black. She’s got Indian features, I give [00:26:00] her that much. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), yeah. LA: So she’s probably mixed there, right? JJ: (Spanish) [00:26:03], her name? LA: Well, you know, my -- JJ: Your grandma, your grandma. LA: -- yeah, my father’s name is Garden okay, so, and her name, you know, was [Abuela?]. You know, we’re the only Garden family in the Dominican Republic. It’s quite interesting because now, there’s been a resurgence of connections through the internet. So we’re finding actual cousins as a history on the Garden 14 �side of real political involvement. I remember when -- you know, and this is going a little aside now on the Dominican side but -JJ: That’s all right. LA: You know, one day, my sister and I were watching Roots, but maybe for the third time and – which just happened to be on TV. And it was [00:27:00] pre-VCR days and stuff like that, so, you know, you watched whatever was on, right? And so we’re watching this and then as a joke I said to my sister, “You know, maybe we should find our own Kunta Kinte and our own because we don’t have any connection to our Dominican side.” When my father died, I had one aunt here, and she was very mysterious about... And I love this aunt, and she was loving to me in every way, and I love goin’ to see her, and we were very bonded, right, but she would not tell me anything about the family. For some reason, it was all a mystery, and my sister and I couldn’t figure it out, but we just had no contact. So my sister said, “Yeah, we should, we should figure it out, we should find them somehow.” I said, “Yeah, well, let’s try looking up people in the phone book and see what happens, is there another Garden?” So she did, and she called that person because it was [00:28:00] pre-internet days, right. And that person turns out to be my first cousin, and they had known about us. I think it was... I mean it’s definitely after I was in the seminary, so they had known that I went to the seminary, that I was gonna be a priest. They knew a lot of stuff about me and about Linda, but they didn’t know how to contact us. And so we made the contacts, and we connected, and it was terrific. And then we finally went to Santo Domingo, went to Dominican Republic with my mother. My mother was 15 �able to see her husband’s family for the first time aside from my cousin who came and stayed with us and my grandmother. So it was a marvelous time for my mom and for my sister and I, and it was like, you know, going back to Africa in a way. It was like, you know, being a descendant of [00:29:00] Kunta Kinte and coming back to the Rio, whatever that river was. And they picked us up in the airport, and they said, “Okay, before we take you to the house, we wanna take you somewhere, so you know who you are.” They took us to (Spanish) [00:29:15], and there, of course, are the remains of the people who led the independence struggle and the remains of my great-great-grandfather’s nephew who wrote the national anthem. JJ: Of Santo Domingo? LA: Emilio Prud’Homme, yeah. JJ: Okay. LA: And -- JJ: What was his name again? I didn’t get it. LA: Emilio Prud’Homme, and he, you know, was a big figure in Dominican history, and of course, I had no knowledge of this. I didn’t know that. There’s a letter behind you right there to my father, from his brother from the [00:30:00] -- I guess the White House of the state of Puerto Plata, from the palace, acknowledging my father’s letter and telling him that he was fine and all kinds of things. Well, that’s my uncle, and he was president of the region of Puerto Plata five times in a row, so he was literally there forever, you know. But I didn’t know this, so it was an interesting part, you know. So people would say, “Well, this is why you were a 16 �Young Lord, this is the Dominican side of you.” (laughter) I said, “Oh, really?” So I think it was the Puerto Rican side. (laughter) But it was interesting ’cause a lot of my Puerto Rican family is, kind of, mellow, you know, so... But on the other hand, I’ll never forget the day that I think we had some kind of meeting or something at the Lords, and I came home, and usually... [00:31:00] It must have been early on in my life as a Young Lord because I remember that I would always take the beret off and would not wear it in the trains, would not give the police an excuse to attack me, so... I guess I didn’t this time, and I walked in Fort Greene Projects, you know, into my mother’s apartment, into our home, with the beret on, and my mother saw the beret, and she went crazy. (Spanish) [00:31:34] I mean, classic, classic, (Spanish) [00:31:38] Puerto Rican style, started screaming. My mother’s not that kind of a person. She’s a very religious woman, right, strong, but she wasn’t into screaming and going crazy, you know? Well, she went nuts. She really started screaming and screaming and crying and “No, this can’t be, this can’t be,” and I’m going, “What’s goin’ on [00:32:00] here?” She just looked at me, and this happened. So, my aunt was there, thank God, and, you know, she’s my favorite aunt on my Puerto Rican side and the person I was closest to in the family. And she went to see that my mother’s okay in the bedroom, and my mother’s crying, I could hear her crying, you know. And so, she comes out after a while, you can imagine how I was, I said, “What’s going on here?” And she said, “(Spanish) [00:32:31] you don’t know anything, right?” I said, “No, what, what is there to know?” She says, “You never heard the story?” “No.” “Well, we weren’t supposed to tell you, so I can understand. Your mother 17 �would tell us everybody, they could never mention this to you. We can never talk about it, so it’s the big secret in the family.” I said, “What secret?” She says, “Well, [00:33:00] how your mother came to this country?” and I go, “Well, what’s it -- how she came, how you came?” She says, “No, no, no, no, no, your mother came before us.” I said, “Well,” she says, “Well, the reason why she came was because the family, seeing that she was dying, that she would need -- that she was very depressed, that she was losing so much weight. (Spanish) [00:33:25] It took a year or so to raise enough money to be able to buy a ticket for her on a boat and send her up to the family here.” I said, “Why, what happened?” She says, “Because the man that she loved, the man that she was to be married, a week before her marriage on Palm Sunday was killed along with other people in Ponce.” I said, “The Ponce massacre?” I had heard about it, of course, you know, as a Young lord, I knew about it, [00:34:00] but I didn’t know that I had such a personal relationship to it. And she said, “Yes, he was one of the 22, and in fact, you know, he took blood, his own blood, and he wrote on the sidewalk, “(Spanish) [00:34:25].” I said, “Really?” “And you really can’t mention this to your mom, we’ve gotta calm her down, but after this, do not say a word. Never mention this because she could get very sick.” I said, “Okay.” You know, I remember growing up, and I remember because my father, particularly when he was alive that -- which I can remember, we had... You know, my father was a very generous guy, a hardworking, typical, working-class guy [00:35:00] who understood what hunger was, he went through that in his own life. So when cousins would come, you know, in the late ’40s and ’50s, right, come into Puerto 18 �Rico as part of the whole wave. People would get there, he’d always have the house available on Sundays for food and the entire family, so many people came over, and that’s how I got to know my whole family. And every Sunday, that’s what it was. And I remember once that somebody said, “Albizu Campos.” Now, you know, if you’re growing up in Brooklyn and somebody says Albizu Campos, that doesn’t sound like the name of a human being. It’s not like, you know, [Maria?] or [Luis?] or something, you know, you didn’t... So Albizu Campos, [00:35:49] and you think it’s one word, you don’t what it is. Albizu Campos (inaudible). So my mother, being the religious person that she is, I thought it was some kind of curse word like [00:36:00] (Spanish) [00:36:01] or something, another one I could never understand, and so... But I know that when somebody said that, my mom [says?], “Well, we don’t speak that way here.” So that’s what she did, she said, “We don’t speak about that here,” so okay, must be some kind of bad language. I never thought about it until of course that day, and all the pieces began to fit. I began to realize what was going on here was my mom, when my father died, how she went into deep depression, again, real deep depression, and that that was really just a recurrence of her first love. You know, she was at her friend’s house who made dresses and was making her wedding dress. My aunt told me, that [Beying?] [00:37:00], her pretendiente, her fiancé, dropped her off, and she had a premonition, my mom did. And she said, “What, where are you going?” He said, “Well, you know, we’re gonna have a march because of what happened, we have to come out.” And she said, “Oh, no, no, no, I heard there’s gonna be trouble” because in Ponce in those times, you know, 19 �people were talking about it and how bad the police were behaving. And, of course, some police officers got shot, and there was a big problem, and that they were looking for revenge, and that the governor and all that were behind them. So she said to him, “Look, you have to be careful because this is not good. I mean, what’s happening here?” He said, “Oh, don’t worry about it, it’s a Palm Sunday march, it’s kids, families, I mean, you know, it’s peaceful. We’re not gonna create any trouble, but we want to take a stand.” And he says, “You know, I’d rather die with my boots on than cower. [00:38:00] It’s time for us to be who we are as Puerto Rico, to be independent, to get rid of these Yankees, so I’m gonna take a stand, I’m gonna be a part of it. It’s gonna be peaceful, but we’re gonna stand up as men,” you know? She made that point. So he was killed. When my mother saw me, it was like coming full circle, full circle in life, and then she saw me dead, that’s what she saw. That’s why she responded the way she did because she thought, here goes the love of my life at this moment, the only one left, and they’re gonna kill him too. JJ: You mentioned the seminary, how did you get into that, the --? LA: Well, you know, let me have a little cafe. JJ: Oh. LA: My drug of choice here. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) here you go. LA: You know, [00:39:00] when you go to Catholic school, you realize that you have great heroes around you. Of course, the nuns were amazing. And also, you have to understand that it was the ’50s and the early ’60s, right, so there was no 20 �Peace Corps, there was no war on poverty. I never saw a social worker, I never saw a Puerto Rican doctor, a Puerto Rican priest, a Puerto Rican anything, right? And no real models around which to channel what was now becoming a real deep-seated feeling about injustice and about what had to be done in the world. So I began to think that perhaps God was calling me to the [00:40:00] priesthood, that God was calling me to do something special. I had dreams about it, you know, typical stuff, stressed out, and thinking about it. And so I began to think that, yeah, this is what I have to do because this is the one way, the only way that I thought I could make a difference. That I could really contribute just to try to begin to end the horrors that I had seen. And I remember a priest, a missionary priest, from the Congregation of the most Holy Redeemer known as Redemptorist. They’re the ones who created Santa Maria Reina in Puerto Rico, the Catholic university church there. I mean, they had a part in it, but they ran the church. And they had missions in Paraguay and Santo Domingo and really all over that Latin [00:41:00] -- all over the world really. The Redemptorist is the third largest order at the time behind the Jesuits and Franciscans. So he talked about, you know, the work that he was doing in Latin America and Paraguay. He talked about the hunger and the poverty, and he talked about his order as going to the most abandoned. I mean, I understood that immediately as the most oppressed, and so I was really moved by [Father Mike Travis?]. I was serving his mass, I was his altar boy, and he was visiting our church, but I was really moved by that, and so that was one, sort of, major moment in my life. But the one that really got me thinking about it and that I really wanted to model my life 21 �after was that man there, Monsignor John Powis. I met [00:42:00] him as a seminarian, he wasn’t [even?] a priest. He was one of these white seminarians, little Father Powis. I mean, he’s so much a part of us that people swear he’s everything but white, you know, I mean, really and... But then he was somebody from outside Fort Greene Projects coming into Fort Greene Projects to just hang with us, connect with us, part of a group of people who worked under the mentorship of a wonderful Catholic nun. She belonged to the Trinitarian Order, and her sister name was Sister Thomas Marie, but who she was really, her secular name, if you will, was Isolina Ferré. In fact, she went back to that name even as a nun when things, you know, opened up after [00:43:00] Vatican II. And Isolina Ferré is the sister of the governor, Ferré, the modern leader of the statehood movement in Puerto Rico, a very decent, honorable man, by the way. There’s another story I could tell about meeting him, but she was wonderful. And Father Powis, then John Powis, the seminarian, right, was, sort of, her mentee. These group of seminarians worked with the Trinitarian nuns to learn from them and to extend their work in the projects. So I was part of it as a kid, I was like 12, I was just either graduating or about to graduate from St. James, yeah, about to graduate when I met him. I guess I was in the eighth grade. Then [00:44:00] when I did graduate, he was ordained and his first assignment was my parish, St. James. Why? Because he was a pianist. I didn’t know that, nobody knew that, and we had the home of the Brooklyn (inaudible) and Choristers. The pastor of the church, Father Toomey, was the leader of the Brooklyn (inaudible) and Choristers, and they were very famous. They went all over the place singing, 22 �beautiful and fantastic voices. And so Father Toomey requested an aide, an assistant, who could lead the choristers, and so he was a concert pianist, done. So that’s why he came to St. James, right, but little did Father Toomey know that he was not interested in that. What he was interested in is me and young people like me and in the projects and in connecting [00:45:00] and really serving and working with the poor. So that became rather apparent quickly on, and of course, they went into a struggle for all the time that they were there, right? But I admired Father Powis for that; I admired for how he stood up to the pastor and how he wanted to really perform the corporal works of mercy. How he was about feeding the hungry and giving drink to the thirsty and clothing the naked, how he was about being a Christian. And it was the first time that I had really seen a priest that actually, actually lived what Christ was talking about in the Gospel to the extent that he would -- I mean, a big complaint about Father Powis is if you saw him without a coat, and somehow you gave him a coat. Well, you know, you might have given that coat in the morning, but by the afternoon, he’d given it to somebody else. I don’t think he owned a coat half the time. He used to walk with holes in his shoes. We saw him, we said, “Oh my God, he’s got [00:46:00] cardboard,” just like we did, and I mean it was the same. And it wasn’t that he was trying to be like us or he’s romanticizing poverty in any way. It was just that he always felt somebody else needed something more and that he could do without. That he could live a life of doing without if that would help somebody else. And so I was inspired by him, and of course, my father had died, so he became my father, and I wanted to be like him. So that consolidated the idea 23 �totally in my mind, I wanna be a Catholic priest like Father Powis. Now, he belonged to the diocese, so he was just, what we called, a secular priest. In other words, he was part of the diocese. He became ordained by that bishop and he worked there. But Father Mike Travis was a missionary, and a missionary that went to the most oppressed. At that point, I didn’t think I was the most oppressed because, you know, I thought that, well, I eat three times a day, I’ve got [00:47:00] a roof over my head. We’re very, very poor, but, hey, look at these people in Paraguay or look at these people in China, look at these people in Africa. I’m rich compared to them, right? So I wanted to, of course, cast my lot with those who are the most abandoned. I’ve never asked about Father Powis what he thought about my decision; he’s very good about it. He said, “Well, this is great, wonderful,” the whole thing, very supportive all the way. But I guess he had to wonder why I would choose an order that wasn’t his, but... Because he was the one all through the seminary that I would go to. In fact, he went -- you know, it was a 12-hour trip to get to St. Mary’s Seminary in North East, Pennsylvania, right next to Lake Erie, and he made that trip at a time when I really needed him, so... I suppose I became a Young Lord because of how the welfare department treated my mom and my neighbor, and [00:48:00] because I wanted to be like Father Powis, and because I really wanted to heed what the Gospel talked about, about really being there for your neighbor. And that I saw so much suffering going on, especially in the Puerto Rican community where we had so little that when I heard... At that point, let’s say when I returned from the seminary, I wanted to see how I could express my priesthood in a more worldly 24 �way, and let me explain that. I remember once, they went into a whole new grading system in the seminary around conduct and application. Now, they were very strict. [00:49:00] I mean, if you really messed up, you packed your bags that night, and I saw that, you know. On the other hand, there were always little things that people do, but maybe they shouldn’t have done, minor things, right. So they had a system for basically telling you what your grade was in application, what your attitude was in applying yourself, and in your conduct. So they went to a system of numbers. So the priest said, “Now, no one’s ever gonna get 100 in conduct and application because that would mean that you’re perfect, and none of us are perfect, so... But we expect, oh, everybody get 95, you know, 90.” So I said, “Okay.” We all said, “All right, we’re [going to get?] 95,” or whatever it is, you know and... But there were two people in the seminary that I [00:50:00] knew of, at least in terms of when I was there, that got 100, 100. It was Tom Curley, amazing, amazing man, who became a priest, who was the one person that I met in my life who really loved knowledge. I mean, of course, I met wonderful priests and great academicians at Harvard and people like that who were very, very much committed to understanding the world and to really acquire knowledge, but he had a love affair with it. I mean he loved reading the encyclopedia. I think we saw him read it like three times or something, the whole thing, the Britannica, and we, “Hey, Tom,” said, “so what letter are you up to today?” that kind of thing, you know. He just loved learning. Everything was just beautiful for him. Whatever we were learning, Greek, whatever it was, he embraced it. [00:51:00] He was a very humble guy, extremely humble. You 25 �know, somewhat, off in his own world half the time, but really, because he was so kind and so generous and so humble, you know, “Hey, Tom, come on out.” ’Cause he couldn’t do sports, he couldn’t do any of that, so “Oh, it’s all right, oh yeah, okay, you can’t catch that one, okay, no problem, Tom,” that kind of thing, we just loved him. So he got 100 and 100, and I got 100 and 100. Now, I wasn’t Tom Curley, and I wasn’t certainly the best, but I was good at watching my back, you know. But, I mean, certainly, I’d never go for the 100 and 100, but I got it anyway. So, I only say that because I was really committed, very committed to becoming a Redemptorist priest, I wanted to. I had a very strong desire to embrace medicine. [00:52:00] I was thinking maybe they could send me to medical school, have some conversations about them. Of course, they weren’t teaching me any science, you know, other than the required physics course, which was not much, a general science course at best, but I was trying to learn as much as I could on my own. And I was definitely focused on healing, so I was thinking and hoping that they would send me to medical school, so I could be a priest-doctor. But after a while in the monastery -- and let me just explain the monastery. The monastery, so you graduate from St. Mary’s Seminary, which is a high school and a junior college, and then you take a break for all academic studies, and you go into this monastic existence for one year. You have no contact with the outside world, no contact with your family, no letters, nothing, no TV. I mean, with a couple of [00:53:00] exceptions; I’ll get into that. But literally, you are to spend the time of prayer, meditation, of learning the ways of the order, and of getting ready to take vows. Because then you take these vows and then 26 �you go on to the house of philosophy and the house of theology and then you get ordained. Come back for another year in the monastery and then go out as a priest. So, you know, all total, it’s 12 years to ordination and another year, 13th, yes. So you can say that I had finished the first six years, although I didn’t start in the seminary as a freshman. I started in high school here, the Catholic high school here, so... JJ: You were in the seminary, were you in high school you say? LA: High school and college, junior college, right. And so, [00:54:00] in the seminary -- no, in the monastery, there was only my class, so I don’t know how many we were, about 22. It wasn’t a whole lot of young people, right, and we were all, what, 17, 18, 19 but so young. And of course, the priests that were there were all there for us. Some were retired, but for the most part, they were there for us, and they were there to support us in our journey. But as I walked in every day to this big dining hall, which we call the refectory. Before you went into the main doors, through the main doors, you would see -- I remember on the right-hand side as you walked in -- a map of the world. And you would see, of course, enlarged the United States, and underneath the United States, there would be a legend explaining the different marks on the map that would relate to how many [00:55:00] schools the Redemptorist were working in, how many schools they had, how many churches they had, and then the United States was divided north and south. So if you look down in the south, there was the furthest subdivision, and that was in terms of color, how many schools white, how many schools Black, how many churches white, how many churches Black. And I looked at 27 �that. Now, you know the rage that I felt at realizing there was such a thing as segregation and afterwards the racism and the white supremacy, that that really was behind that. So I would look at that every day, and I’m going, huh, what is that? And then finally, I said to my classmates, “What is that white and Black stuff?” and they said, “Oh well, that’s the South.” I said, “What are you talking about?” “Well, we have white churches and we have Black churches.” [00:56:00] “Wait a minute, you have white churches and you have Black churches? So you mean if a Black person goes into church, you’re not gonna let them go into church?” “No, no, we let ‘em go in.” “So what’s the problem?” “Well, they have to be in the back.” I said, “What do you mean you have to be?” “Well, they can’t be up front.” “So you don’t let them go to communion?” “Oh, we let them go to communion, but they have to wait for all the white people to have their communion first, then they can go out for communion.” I said, “Are you really telling me this is what you do?” They said, “Yeah, look, this is -- Luis, you don’t understand, you’re from New York City, this is the South.” And the people I was talking to were from the South, said, “So, it’s a different culture there, we have to deal with the reality of the South. You know, you have a different life in the North, I know that, but in the South, that’s the way it has been, and it will always be that way. So we have to conform, or we can’t be there.” I said, “Are you guys crazy? I mean, are you really [00:57:00] -- are you listening to what you’re saying?” They said, “Luis, come on, calm down, this is like you’re [Atoms for Peace?].” They used to call me [Atoms for Peace?] stuff. Because they were supportive of nuclear war, and I’m going, “Are you guys nuts?” I mean, really, you 28 �know. So like three things that I wound up saying, you people are insane, the whole issue of racism and the support of it, the question of, you know, nuclear annihilation, and the support of their so-called just war. And I’m going, “There cannot be a just war if you have nuclear bombs, it’s impossible,” and they didn’t want to accept that. And of course early on, I said, “It was insane to have our services, our masses in Latin because nobody understands what’s going on, and what is the point?” And it seems so logical to me, and they said, “Oh well, yeah, sure, but that’ll never or it might change maybe a thousand years from now, you know how slow the Catholic church changes.” And I’m going, [00:58:00] “It’s gotta change now, and we’re gonna be priests, we’ve gotta make it.” They said, “No, you can’t do that because you’ll defy the Pope.” Like, “Give me all kinds of reasons why you could not use your common sense.” So I love them now; these are my brothers. You know, I understand when marines say, “They’re my brothers” because you do bond, and I did bond with them, and they were very much my family. But I remember the day that I told the novice master that I just felt that I had to leave, and he tried to talk me out of it of course. They had been thinking about me as being a bishop someday in Latin America, and they had great hopes. And spoke to the provincial, the provincial wanted to see me, you know, it wasn’t the easiest thing to do. And it wasn’t the easiest thing for me because I loved my fellow classmates; I mean, we were a family. [00:59:00] JJ: And you also did it also because of social justice in terms of --? LA: I did it solely because of that. Look, I went on with this a long, long time in my mind. I just could not leave because I could not leave my family. But what 29 �finished it for me and the reason I had the nerve and the courage to be able to talk to the novice master about it, which meant that I was making a decision, finally, was because one day, we were allowed to see a television program there. We had been allowed to see one other television program before. It was a debate between a Protestant and a Catholic priest, Protestant minister, about something related to ecumenical sort of approach, and it was great. I remember that, because at that point, it was on TV, it exciting, [01:00:00] whatever it was because we [didn’t?] see TV. The master had to leave for some meeting or something, and so the junior guy, who had just been ordained and assigned there, right, who was a Republican -- I’ll never forget this -- pro-Goldwater type said, “Well, you know, novice master is away today, and I’m in charge. And something’s very important happening, and I think you guys should see it.” So we went upstairs to the TV room, and I’m going, “Wow, this must be a very heavy debate between the Catholic and Protestant for them to want us to see it.” I’m going, “But anyway, hey, we’re gonna watch TV, so that’s good,” so... And he puts the TV on, and at that moment, Martin Luther King comes out to the microphone and says, “I have a dream.” I mean, imagine you don’t see TV at all, you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t read newspapers, you don’t know anything that’s going on. And what you see for the first time is Martin Luther King [01:01:00] say the I Have a Dream speech, the famous speech. And for me, it was like God was talking to me because here I was. I didn’t tell anybody that I wanted to leave, and I didn’t tell them why. Because in my heart I felt, you know, if I stay in the order, I’m just gonna be a rabble-rouser because I’m not, not ever 30 �going to accept the division between white and Black, never gonna happen. I’m either gonna get thrown out, and I also was supposed to be such a model student, I mean, it will be a horror. And so I thought God was talking to me, and I said, okay, that’s it, that’s it, and then I went to the novice master and eventually left. But I left hoping to think maybe to become more like Father Powis, but the war in Vietnam was just starting, people did not even know about it at the time, [01:02:00] but I was very concerned. And of course ex-seminarians usually wind up in Brooklyn in St. Francis College, and that’s where I wound up because that’s -- you have to go somewhere. You’re like a fish out of water; the world seems very strange. JJ: What is St. Francis College? LA: St. Francis College is a Catholic college in Brooklyn. JJ: They take -- seminarians [go there?] --? LA: Ex-seminarians go, I mean everybody goes there, but in those days when there were seminarians, and a lot of seminarians coming out, they usually went to St. Francis first, and that’s where they would move to. So I was told, “Go to St. Francis;” I said, “Okay, I’ll go to St. Francis.” Now think about it, St. Francis, the peacemaker, his famous peace prayer, well, that wasn’t the case at St. Francis. In fact, a friend of mine and I went to this rally that St. Francis was holding down the block right there in front of the [01:03:00] Borough Hall, and it was a rally to bomb Hanoi. It was the early days of Vietnam War, and it was a conservativesupported thing that we should go in with greater troops, and the whole thing just, you know, wiped the world of Vietnam, and it was horrifying. It was horrifying 31 �because a brother actually said the prayer first, you know, and that’s how the rally started, and it was well attended. And my friend and I, we were just, like, totally blown away because we were pacifists both of us, we said, “Oh my God.” So, soon after I left, I said, “I can’t do this class.” Eventually, of course, I got more and more involved in the antiwar movement, and I went to every major march. The only march that I did not go to in Washington was the Pentagon march ’cause [01:04:00] I think that was during the week, I couldn’t do it but ev-JJ: What years were these? LA: This was 1967 --’66, ’67, ’68, those late ’60s. JJ: Were you part of any group or you just went? LA: You know what, actually, there was two groups that I belonged to. One group was the tight-knit group. In ’67, I became a member of John Lindsay’s mayor’s office and the youngest one, and there’s a whole story behind that. But there was really some cool guys because what John Lindsay wanted to do was to recruit ex-civil rights and welfare rights people, and I was a welfare rights organizer. It was the first major organizing that I did. Or people thought it was impossible to organize welfare clients into a union, but we showed it was not only possible, but that we could create a City-Wide [01:05:00] Coordinating Committee of Welfare Groups and then a national organization, and we did all that. And then when the chairperson of the City-Wide Coordinating Committee of Welfare Groups, Frank Espada -- JJ: Oh, I know. 32 �LA: You know Frank? A very noted, wonderful militant organizer. Most people know him as a photographer, and he’s a great photographer. Of course, his work is now a part of the Smithsonian is the -- JJ: Who did an exhibit in Chicago -- LA: Right. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: The (inaudible) and Diaspora exhibit, which I hope someday will come -- JJ: The Hawaiian-Puerto Rican exhibit. LA: Exactly, exactly. So Frank, who was my compadre, my best man at my first marriage and who I was very, very close to and close to his family, and, man, I was there all the time practically. When he got [01:06:00] the job, eventually, he allowed me to volunteer, and eventually, he figured out a way to get me the job because I was very young. And my history just in terms of organizing was really welfare rights, but I was really into it, and I had learned a lot, and I had become a very good organizer. And Frank knew that, so he wanted me to organize the war on poverty, particularly here in this community in Williamsburg and other communities, but this would be my main community. So I did, and as part of that group, there was a bunch of us, like [Benny?] and others, that were really against the war in Vietnam earlier on. This is before people, kind of, put up to this, and we wanted to make sure that there was a Puerto Rican presence. The marches were mostly white, and we wanted to make sure that the world knew that Puerto Ricans were against the war. [01:07:00] In those early days, a lot of Puerto Ricans weren’t, unfortunately, because we all swallowed the anti-communist 33 �propaganda and that kind of thing. So it was difficult talking to even members of our families about this because they would feel that somehow, we were being cowards in not going to the army. Or they would ascribe all kinds of other issues to the real issue, which was that it was an immoral war and that we had to stand up against it, so... Not to mention the fact that we were pacifists, which is a whole other can of worms for some people. So anyway, so we decided we’d get the biggest Puerto Rican flag we could get, huge, right? And if you look with a magnifying glass at all those pictures, just look for the Puerto Rican flag, and I’ll be right underneath it. So I was very much in that whole, sort of, Catholic Social Action [01:08:00] effort also. So it was that plus Catholic Social Action circles that I was part of, the [Bergen?] Fathers, the Catholic Worker, Catholic Peace Fellowship. They helped me very much get my deferment, you know, because... JJ: So you marched with the Bergen? LA: Oh, yes, I was very much a part of because I was from the seminar, still feeling like, “Okay, I’m trying to express my priesthood, this is the way I’m gonna do it.” And so it’s no longer gonna be in a structured Catholic church, it’s gonna be Catholic Worker, it’s gonna be a soup kitchen, it’s gonna be this, it’s gonna be that, it’s gonna be the antiwar movement, you know. So, that’s where I was in 1969, in December, when I heard about this group of young people who were trying to get a church to perform the corporal works of mercy. I said, “Oh my God,” [01:09:00] and this is what had moved me all my life, right? So I hear that they were trying to create a breakfast program, they were trying to get a clothing drive going. They were trying to get a liberation school where young people 34 �would learn about their history. They were trying to help people in all sorts of ways. They were tryin’ to perform the corporal works of mercy, what Christ told us would be the criteria for acceptance into the kingdom of heaven. They were tryin’ to be Christians, and that for that, the police had come in and beat them up and bloodied an entire church. And that had just happened, and the word spread like -JJ: So the police came in and...? LA: The police. Because it was the First Spanish Methodist Church. Now, I’m a Catholic, so we have a different set of rules, but within the ceremony of the service of the Methodist Church, there is [01:10:00] a moment when one can speak up and pray out loud and talk to God about things that are happening, right? And so Felipe Luciano, who was the first chairperson of the Young Lords, had tried with other Young Lords to speak to the pastor of the church who was from Cuba. And so unfortunately, what he saw when he saw the berets was -well, he fled. So he saw Fidelistas, and he didn’t want anything to do it. So, of course, Felipe also has a Protestant background, and he had friends who went to that church, whose families went to that church, so explained the process to him. So he said, “Well, we’re gonna go to church, let’s go to church and let’s just plead our case directly.” So he got up and said who he was and said why they were there and what they were doing. And as soon as he did that, [01:11:00] the pastor gave a nod to a plainclothes police officer in the church. He went outside and brought in uniformed police officers, a whole bunch of them who started 35 �swinging their billy clubs at the Young Lords. They broke his arm, there was blood over the entire, entire church, it was horrible. And it was the first time -JJ: The entire -- LA: Felipe’s was blood and other Young Lords, yeah. And I am told it was the first time ever that the New York City Police Department ever entered a church during a ceremony and actually assaulted people. So that news went all around the world, and of course, you know, it basically got to everybody in New York City and Latinos talking about it, and I heard about it immediately. And then we were told that next Sunday there was gonna be a -- that people [01:12:00] are gonna go up there support what the Young Lords were doing. And so we went up there, and the Young Lords just had the church, and they basically talked, and it was wonderful. And I remember I was sitting next to Richie Perez who was his first time too. He was a teacher, and I liked Richie because Richie looked normal. (laughter) I mean, we all had long hair, but that was normal for us in those days. But, you know, he had a job, he was a teacher, he was real, he didn’t look as flamboyant as Pablo and Felipe. You know, they were really great guys and very charismatic and all that, but for me, it’s a little scary. Remember, I’m from the seminary, you know, and they’re talking about armed struggle and stuff like that, and I’m going, “Ooh, I don’t know if I can do that, [01:13:00] it’s not for me,” so... And Richie -- JJ: You’re a pacifist. LA: I’m a pacifist, right, but I agreed with them and everything that they were saying, and I was moved by them [hence?]. But I figured I have to get some kind of 36 �reading on this from a guy I can trust, so at some point, I turned to Richie. I said, “Richie, would you consider joining this?” ’Cause right there, I was there, I was there, I was so there by that time, right? Because what was missing in my life was, yeah, I had the Catholic Social Action Group, but it was mostly white, loved them, but it wasn’t my people. I had this small, little group at work, but we were singular, right? There wasn’t a group. I tried the Movimiento por Independencia, but I thought, you know, I can’t really hang with these people and my Spanish isn’t good enough. You know, I thought it was a Spanish issue, right? JJ: Mm-hmm. LA: Later I realized it was a class issue, right? JJ: Yeah. LA: But, [01:14:00] then it was like I’d be tongue tied, (Spanish) [01:14:02], et cetera., you know, so I really couldn’t hang with them. I liked them, especially since they were committed to independence and of course brought me into the culture, the music, the poetry, the cancion and all that. But they weren’t me, you know, and they didn’t really represent our experience, so I didn’t have a group. So when Felipe was talking and Pablo was talking and Juan Gonzalez, and I had met David before then -- JJ: David Perez. LA: -- David Perez, yeah, through a friend, and I trusted that friend. So I knew David was a good guy, a good working-class guy, a guy like me, like my family. I was really ready, but as I said, they were very charismatic and very forceful, and I was enraged as they were, but [01:15:00] I don’t know if I would use that 37 �language. And so when Richie said, well, he’s thinking about it, I said, “Well, okay, Richie, if you join, I join,” and we both joined together the same day. JJ: And then after you joined, what kind of actions were you involved in? Was there a demonstration --? LA: Wow, well, of course, the first thing was the people’s church. We’d be taking over the church and holding it, I think, for about 14 days, wasn’t it? JJ: Yeah, I went one day, I came from Chicago. LA: Yeah, you did? Yeah. JJ: Yeah. LA: Well, it must have been a very special day. JJ: Yeah. LA: So I had a child and -- JJ: And what’s your child’s name? LA: Arianne, [Arianna?], and Arianna was, you know, maybe -- yeah, she was born in 1968, so she was about a year old. And so that meant that I could not be there every single day or at least could only be there for a few hours [01:16:00] every day, right? So we all planned this, this takeover, and it was understood that, at some point, the police were going to come and arrest us. And so, you know, I -- JJ: Make sure you don’t say anything -- LA: I was given a dispensation for being there for that because obviously I had a daughter, so I missed that one and... But, you know, I was involved -- JJ: First, you guys took over the church and so -- 38 �LA: Yes, we took over the church, and eventually, after negotiations, et cetera, et cetera, we were arrested, you know. But we held it for a good long time. JJ: How many people were arrested? LA: Jeez, I don’t remember. JJ: But I mean a lot of -- LA: A lot of people, yeah, but – and it was in the middle of the night, basically, who did that kind of number. But we had, you know, for like -- was it 14 days? I can’t remember how many days it was. [01:17:00] For a good while there, every single day, we had so many different activities there. I mean, you could see what it was that we were talking about because it was all about -- JJ: What kind of activities were --? LA: Oh, everything from cultural activities to the actual practice of the activities we wanted to begin with, the practice programs, the liberation school, the clothing drives. All that stuff happened in those two weeks, and it was wonderful. Of course, every day, the headlines, you know, when is Lindsay going to act and, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff but we were doing all kind. Even at one point, we had a real religious service there with the bishop of Puerto Rico who came, remember? JJ: Right. LA: And the gospel was from the Red Book; he quoted Mao. I thought I’d died and gone to heaven; (laughter) It was amazing, so... So I remember those days; it was just very moving. [01:18:00] But I was involved in the health and education minister, so I was under the leadership of Juan Gonzalez, which was great, 39 �because Juan was amazing and still is a very close friend. And so I was involved in issues around TB testing and sickle cell anemia, and my focus was TB testing and in other areas like -JJ: And you guys -- LA: -- the clothing drive and stuff. JJ: -- someone to the team for it to -- LA: I’m sorry? JJ: Someone -- LA: Yeah, yeah, oh well, yeah -- JJ: -- during that time? LA: I wasn’t there for that, okay. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: But, yes. Well, they had this mobile TB, tuberculosis, truck where you could get an examination and an x-ray. And it was in some part of Manhattan that really where it was a middle-class community, people had access to health care. It really was in the wrong place, so they weren’t getting much business, right? So [01:19:00] very politely, we told them we’re taking over, and we told them where they had to go, and, of course, I think they were probably a little concerned, but there were many of us. So they moved to East Harlem, to the block where they really could get a lot of people, and people needed those services. At the end of the day when the reporters came and everything else came, and they asked people how did they feel about being kidnapped, and they said, “Well, no, we weren’t. In fact, you know, they were right, we were in the wrong place and they 40 �treated us very well, and we should be here.” I think early on, our reputation grew as the so-called “Polite Revolutionaries” in New York City. Unlike what the media had portrayed as the Black Panthers. I mean the Black Panthers were as polite as we were, but they got the bad press. We got a lot of favorable press because everything that we did, eventually, people say, “You know what, they were right, this is [01:20:00] what we should be doing.” We took over Lincoln Hospital, but it was after creating the Think Lincoln table where we would get complaints. And we would basically generate all these complaints and bring them to administration, “Look, this is stuff that you’ve gotta deal with, right?” Of course, they didn’t wanna deal with it, so we had to organize the nurses as part of -- some of them, of course, not all of them -- the Health Revolutionary Unity Movement, the HRUM. And together with them and other doctors and people who worked in the hospital, we took it over. Now, at the end of the day, people said, “Yeah, Lincoln Hospital should be closed, and no one should be opened, and the Young Lords were right,” so in almost every situation. I think only one situation that -- well two situations where I think -- and we ourselves felt [01:21:00] that we were wrong -- was when we took over the church again. I was in Boston by the time I -- [Josephina?] and I had opened up the branch in Boston. JJ: (inaudible), okay. LA: And I founded the branch in Massachusetts, and so I was there for most of -- a lot of this, right. And so what happened was that we took over the church again but with rifles. Now, I wouldn’t have been a part of that, you know. Now, it wasn’t that -- 41 �JJ: It was that time, it was that era. LA: Yeah, it was that era and... JJ: Today they call it Occupy but it was the same --? LA: It’s the same concept, yeah, the same concept. JJ: It was just that era that -- LA: Yeah, and, you know, we were very, very upset. We felt we had -- take a dramatic kind of action. Richie was telling me about it -- [01:22:00] JJ: I’m not saying it was wrong, I’m just saying of that era. LA: Richie was telling me about it, and I said, “Richie, come on, guns, come on.” And Richie just bowed his head and said, “Yeah, bro, I know but...” So Richie would never tell me it was wrong either, but I knew what he felt, and that’s why he became a wonderful brother to me. And I always considered him my mentor even though we’re the same age, but I would always go to him to think things out around politics particularly and our struggle, so... That was one that I think, you know, some people, rightfully so, would argue that that wasn’t the best day for the Young Lords. I think the other one was the takeover of the front of the Puerto Rican Day Parade. And, again, we were brought in from Boston, you know, I came with my guys and stuff, [01:23:00] and we were told that we had decided that we had enough of the Puerto Rican Parade being led by the New York City Police Department. That the people should lead the parade, and that what we were gonna to do was to jump the parade and be at the front. So that was the plan, and I’m going, “Richie, does this make sense?” It’s like I’m out from Boston, so I’m like just getting it, I’m not a part of the thinking process, I didn’t go 42 �through in this, and I’m going, “Why would we wanna do this?” I mean I remember going to the Puerto Rican. The early days of Puerto Rican Day Parade, you would just show up and walk the streets, that was it, and my mother did that, so... And so I remember as a young boy walking with my mother on Fifth Avenue, and it was wonderful, so I had fond memories of the Puerto Rican Day Parade. I do understand the politics and how it’s used [01:24:00] basically to aggrandize certain so-called political Puerto Rican leaders and how the politicians use it basically to pacify our community in some cases or win votes. And you know, it seemed like the police department, given the kind of assaults of our community that the police department had perpetrated, shouldn’t be the ones leading it, so it made sense in a way. But on the other hand, you know, taking the front of the parade was gonna be a dangerous kind of thing, and people might take it the wrong way, and it may not be something that we should be doing. And I told Richie that, and he said, “Bro, we thought about this, it’s important,” blah, blah, blah,” and I said, “Okay.” So the mistake was that we were not gonna wear for the first time our [01:25:00] berets or anything identifying us as Young Lords. The idea would be that we would go -- at some point when the parade nearing us, we were gonna jump out into the streets, disclose who we were because people followed us, they trusted us. Again, they marched with us 10,000 strong to the UN. I mean, everything that we did was huge, people -- and rightfully so. We were very good and very respectful at what we were doing all the time. And so that was the plan, except we hadn’t counted on the fact that we had people that had infiltrated Young Lords and knew about 43 �these plans, that the police department knew about these plans. And so all of a sudden, from out of nowhere, comes this big Puerto Rican flag. That goes on to the street, people start screaming and hollering, you know “Young Lords.” And then these people that looked like the so-called classic militants jump [01:26:00] out and tell people, “Come on, come on out to the street.” Now, the people knew that we were gonna take the front of the parade, right, so they go out into the streets. Now -JJ: So these were agent provocateurs. LA: Agent provocateurs, and I’ll tell you how I learned that because there was one guy particularly who was moving everything. Black, maybe African American, or Black Latino, I don’t know, but he had a beret on, and he had all kinds of medals. You know how we were told all the time, anybody who has a lot of buttons, you gotta worry about them, they’re probably an agent, right? So he had all that stuff on, and he was telling me, “Come on, we’re taking the front of the parade, we’re taking the front of the parade.” And then we’re going, “No, no, no, stay back,” but they wouldn’t listen to us because they didn’t know we were Young Lords. They thought that was the Young Lords. The flag was out there, people just jumped, the parade was nowhere near us, and the police were on the side streets, you know, totally armed to the hilt with all kinds of gear and trucks and everything. Just it was a setup [01:27:00] so that they could come in and mop the place up, literally, and arrest us all, clean the streets before the parade even got there, and that’s exactly what happened. A lot of people hurt, I saw a baby carriage go up in the air, I saw horrors that I had never seen before. I remember that people 44 �were screaming and trying to get into the lobbies of the buildings on Fifth Avenue, and the doorman would not let them in. And I remember that you can only do this when you’re so in the moment that you get this kind of strength. I remember that, I said, “Look, these people have to get in, there’s a mob of police officers swinging their police clubs, they’re gonna get hurt.” “Oh, we can’t let you in,” I said, “Yes, you are gonna let us in,” and I took one with one hand, and the other with the other hand. Now, come on, how strong [was I?]? Not that strong. I lifted them both and threw them. Now, I don’t know how I did that. [01:28:00] It’s impossible normally because I wasn’t that strong, just normal. I opened the doors and said, “Come on in,” and people went to the lobby. So when I had them secured, I went back out to see what else I could do. I saw the guy that started it all after the flag, the African or Black Latino dressed up as a so-called Young Lord. And I followed him because I wanna see who this guy was. And I followed him, followed him, followed him, and he was moving up back to the front of the parade. The parade by that time had passed by. Of course, a lot of people oblivious to what happened ’cause it was all in the press in the night and everything else, [the stories?]. But those people behind them had no hint that something like that had happened. People were bloodied and -(break in audio) M2: Yeah, that’s the only piece that’s missing because my project’s more specific to who you are now so -- LA: I think I was talkin’ more about today, right? M2: You talked about today and the [01:29:00] past were you -- you know? 45 �LA: Yeah, whatever, so you look at it and tell -- M2: That’ll be great. Yeah, I think that’s missing, so let’s -- LA: Okay, let’s -- we’ll do it. So... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: Okay, yeah. (break in audio) JJ: [Really?]? LA: Really JJ: [Sued?]? LA: Yeah, I mean ’cause we sued. JJ: Now we were talkin’ about when we -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: I feel like so (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) yeah, he did, he did real time. (laughter) I got money for my time. F1: Your -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Okay, now we were talking -- LA: So I’m watching this guy, and other people had also, when they saw what was happening, started walking up away from the police, right? JJ: Mm-hmm. LA: So all of a sudden, I see him jump to the other side of the street, and there, I see on the ground an elderly gentleman who just had a heart attack. He was one of those people. I guess all of the horror that he saw just got to him, and he had a heart attack and actually [01:30:00] died. And so he immediately goes to the -- 46 �he was the first one on the scene, and I’m right behind him. He doesn’t notice me, and he immediately, you know, checks for vital signs or anything else. I’m going, hmm, and then the police come, and then he takes out his badge. I said, “Son of a gun, you know, they just set it up totally.” So that’s how I knew that it was all a setup. JJ: This is gonna be the Puerto Rican -- LA: Puerto Rican Day Parade. JJ: -- Parade? LA: Yeah, so that was not a high point in our history. But the support -- JJ: So why wasn’t that a high point? I mean what do you --? LA: Because we didn’t understand fully the kind of (inaudible), the reporting that was going on, number one. Number two, because it just wasn’t the right thing to do, [01:31:00] with a sacred cow like the Puerto Rican Day Parade. You know, there are some things that are done incorrectly and are exploitative of our people, but our people believe in them. And so it’s not our place at that moment to contradict that, but to create a context for our people to understand what’s really going on. So I believe that we didn’t create that context for that Puerto Rican Day Parade. We just confronted it believing that we had the people on our side. And I guess if we had done it in a way like we used to do things, right, we might have been able to pull it off. JJ: What do you mean the way you used to do? LA: Well, I mean, the early days of the Young Lords. I wasn’t there, obviously, but the stories that I first heard when I got to the People’s Church. But this is in the 47 �summer of ’69, and the People’s Church was in December of ’69, right, on how [01:32:00] the Young Lord started. The Young Lords started basically as the Sociedad Albizu Campos, a bunch of college students from Stony Brook and Columbia, Juan and others who had gathered together mostly because of Mickey bringing people together, Mickey Melendez, and some kids who were not in college who had also somehow connected with them. And, you know, it, at first, was more of a study group of people tryin’ to figure out what to do. You know, they were, sort of, more of the classic Marxists who thought you had to read the 50 books of Lenin before you could even do anything, you know, and others who wanna do everything without even thinkin’ about it, so it was that mix. So finally, I guess as a compromise, they decided, well, here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna go on a Saturday morning, and we’re gonna go and clean up the streets. The number one issue that people could obviously see was a major problem [01:33:00] was the garbage because garbage was piled up in our communities like a couple of stories high in some cases. The city had basically abandoned the kind of garbage pickup they had on Park Avenue. That wasn’t for us in the so-called ghetto. So we thought that if we could clean up the garbage, people would see that, and they would follow our lead, and before you know it, we had people engaged and we can begin to start demanding our rights. So we started doing that as the story goes, and people saw us, and they mocked us. They started saying, “What do you think, you guys the sanitation department now?” so they didn’t get it at all, you know? And so people went back to their clubhouse, you know, and said, “What was that about?” It’s like, we gotta change up that 48 �somehow. We thought, okay, the next time we do this, we’re gonna put the garbage in the middle of the street. [01:34:00] We’re gonna stop traffic, that’s gonna get people’s attention, and that’s gonna really demand that the city, in fact, change their policy, so we did that. Now, I think a couple of people knew what Felipe was gonna do. I’m not sure all the Lords knew at that moment, other than the central committee, what Felipe was gonna do. I’m not clear; I wasn’t there. But Felipe doused the garbage with, I guess, some flammable liquid and torched it. And then, as the flames sprang up, screamed at the top of his lungs, and you know Felipe can scream, he’s got an incredible voice, “(Spanish) [01:34:42]!” And everybody heard that, and people were opening up the windows and said, “What’s goin’ on here?” and he said, “The Young Lords!” And so we did that, all right, but we had like a van plan, we had an escape plan immediately. So immediately, we knew that we had to go into the stores, the bars, [01:35:00] the restaurants, we had to go in there immediately. Everybody had sneakers on because we could run fast, take our beret out, put it back in, look normal, and then come out as the people came out and said, “Whoa, you know, the Young Lords were at it again.” And this happened every weekend in the summer, to the point that by Friday night, there were helicopters over El Barrio looking for Young Lords to see where they were gonna strike next. We’d always do it, we’d always strike, we’d always do the same thing, and we’d meld into the masses and come out with everybody else, and nobody knew. Everybody assumed that Young Lords like, I don’t know, hundreds and hundreds of people, like the Black Panthers that stay out in the West Coast, but the reality was, it was a very small 49 �group of guys. Some women, definitely, Sonia Ivany and others, but mostly young people and a very small group at that. So, you know, that was [01:36:00] the kind of thinking that was going on in the Puerto Rican Day Parade, but as I said, the police department was one step ahead of us. JJ: Okay. You mentioned (inaudible). LA: Yeah. JJ: What was that, what was your involvement with --? LA: Well, I founded El Puente and then -- JJ: Oh (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LAC: -- El Puente -- and I founded El Puente in 1982 because -JJ: And El Puente is what, what is that? LA: Well, El Puente means “the bridge” in Spanish. And I thought that given what was happening in our community, that we needed a more mass-based place to convene our people to stand up for our human rights. It couldn’t be a political party. It had to be a place that was open to everybody and that was safe [01:37:00] and -- JJ: So mass-based -- LA: -- welcoming. JJ: -- meaning everybody, open to the community? LA: Welcome to the community with certain principles, of course, but not so ideologically determined that it would basically chase people away even before they got to know and engage in El Puente. And particularly focus on young people, why? Because 12 months before I opened up El Puente. In a period 50 �from 1979 to 1980 -- I opened up El Puente up in 1982 -- we had lost 48 young people in a section of Williamsburg. Some 30,000 to 32,000 people, one square mile called the Southside, Los Sures, very famous. This was El Barrio, the most -- the community with the census tract [01:38:00] in all of New York State with the highest concentration of Latinos. It was also part of the second poorest congressional district. It was the poorest community in the city, in the state, the poorest Latino community, so... And it was also obviously the most violent because we lost 48 young people in that one square mile, virtually one every single week through gang violence. We were, as the mass media defined, as the teenage gang capital of New York City. And everybody had a show on us, Geraldo, Donahue, all the different stations talked about the Southside and the killings in the Southside, and our own community was very much afraid to walk the streets. JJ: Was this before it got gentrified or--? LA: Oh, nobody wanted to come to the Southside. This was the most concentrated Latino community, mostly Puerto Rican. Nobody wanted to come, and virtually everybody was [01:39:00] Latino, and of course, nobody ever thought that anybody would ever wanna come and live here. You know, people at any moment, if they could get away, got away. I had founded El Puente, it was the process of it, and basically realized that if I was going to be able to build a base in this community, I had to live here, and so... And the other people who worked at El Puente who volunteered, because we were all volunteers at the time, also had to live here. So I would not allow people to be working with us or volunteer 51 �with us who did not live here, so I bought my own house here. Now, my mortgage was 200 dollars a month; it was virtually nothing. I didn’t have a credit card, so I borrowed some money from a friend for the closing cost and basically got [01:40:00] the house for nothing. And that’s the way it was because people -and even the woman who sold to me, I told her, “Listen, things are gonna change, if you want, I’ll just rent here if you have second thoughts about giving up the house,” she said, “Oh no, no, I’ve been dying for this and I’m so glad you came along and I know you mean well, but nothing’s gonna change.” And I told her, I said, “You know --” but she insisted, she was so happy to leave, so, and for good reason. I came home one night, there was a dead body that shoot up, and just before I arrived, the police were just arriving right. One week, I remember the very famous week that I had guns pointed at me by both the police and some gang kids, so in two different incidences. So it was a very difficult place, so we knew that we had to create a space that was a neutral zone in terms of the gangs. [I had to?] get agreement where [01:41:00] their younger siblings could come, and they would be safe, and that’s how we began. But when they got here, I would explain to them that this was about a movement and that what we wanted -- yes, we wanted them to learn how to do breakdancing and all the different other activities I would get volunteers to do, and then eventually, I got some money and actually could pay people. But the whole point was to promote peace and justice, and that we had to be those people to stand up for our communities to stop the injustice that was going on. So out of this came the Toxic Avengers of El Puente, the first Latino environmental group in the city, 52 �[Mash?] Ministry, a health group, all kinds of groups. The El Puente Dance Ensemble was, recall, celebrated, throughout the state and region, reviewed by the New York Times and a very professional group. In fact, there were only two groups allowed to perform at the United Nations [01:42:00] children’s summit before 75 heads of state, ambassadors, and wives -- (coughs) JJ: You want some water? LA: Yeah, I could (inaudible). And it was El Puente and another group called [Sounds of Nature?], a very good group, but we were the only two groups, so that gives you a sense of the quality of the El Puente Dance Ensemble. Of course, [Dator?] El Puente was the first adolescent-aged trauma group in the country, started in 1987, still going strong. So the many, many groups that have come out of El Puente have been about peace and justice. And I got this from both my Catholic Social Action and, in particular, the Young Christian Worker movement. (Spanish) [01:42:57] gave rise to liberation theology [01:43:00] in Latin America and union struggles, and we were part of it here, in our church here in Transfiguration Church. And that’s where I met what would be eventually the cofounders of El Puente, people I went to, “Listen, let’s do this,” and who said, “Yeah, we’re down with you.” And like Frances, who’s the executive director today, she was the first one to -- she had started the Williamsburg Arts & Culture Council for Youth, so she was doing dance classes. She was a professional dancer who was home healing from an accident and, in the meantime, actually teaching young people about modern dance. Thought she was gonna go back to it. And her brother, who was a fine artist, and taught -- 53 �JJ: Who’s her brother? LA: Frank Lucerna, yeah, it’s either the Frances or Frank, kind of runs in the family, you know, is the way I -- you know, so... [01:44:00] And Gino Maldonado, who was one of the four incorporators, along with me and Father Steve and Judy Agostini in terms of state charter, who’s been with El Puente from day one and now is the chief of operations after 30 years of doing this. So it was a coming together of the Young Christian Worker movement and the Young Lords in a way that could be very appealing to everybody. We call them the 12 principles. Four cornerstones of those 12 principles are holism. That our approach was not gonna be categorical in terms of one part of the human person or the other, but that we were gonna relate to each other as whole human beings. [01:45:00] A very novel notion in 1982, by the way, holism. When I would speak of holism, people thought I was talking about brown rice or acupuncture or something, you know, something mysterious. And no, I was talkin’ with them about how we should approach ourselves, how should we connect with ourselves. And focus on development, not on some disease, human development, our development, our development as neighbors, as human beings, and a community. And the second most important cardinal principle for us... Well, we have 12 principles, so let me... Holism was a part of an approach. So we break up the 12 principles into beliefs, tools, and goals, right? So lemme just talk about the goals because I was going more into the belief system. So the goals are, [01:46:00] number one, creating community. We need to promote in every member of El Puente that their first responsibility always is to create community wherever they are, whether 54 �they are in prison or outside of this present community. Wherever they are, where they find themselves, their job as human beings is to create community. And the second one, the second cardinal principle is really a corollary of that, and that is to love and care for each other. So loving and caring, the second cardinal principle. The third one is mastery. That we are about excellence in everything that we do. It’s not about getting by, so it’s about really honing our skills, whatever we do, you know. Our relationships have to be the most loving, our learning has to be the most excellent, our applications the best. [01:47:00] Our community and this world is rather oppressed, so it’s our obligation to be masterful in our approach to change it. And the last one is peace and justice. That what we stand for and that the most important thing in terms of creating community and loving and caring for each other and being masterful is to promote peace and justice. JJ: Yeah, can you say something about Boston when you worked there? LA: Okay, so... JJ: Just because that’s the difference. LA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so let me just -- you know, just so you have it on the history -finish with El Puente. So 30 years later, we are seven sites. We’re the first public high school for human rights in America. Actually, PBS did a survey of 52 countries and declared on primetime, on national television that the El Puente [01:48:00] Academy for Peace and Justice was the only public school in that – in our case high school, for human rights in the world. We thought we were the only one in the city, but then the state department let us know we were the only 55 �ones in the country, and PBS declared that we were the only ones in the world. Now, we opened up in 1993, so that was some 11 years later since the founding of El Puente as a whole. We are a community health and environment institute. We were able to stop the development of a 55-story incinerator that was already legislated in the city by the New York City Council by, four years later, getting the governor to basically sign into law a measure for bidding incineration, so basically, doing away with that vote of the city council. And been doing all kinds of stuff around environmental justice ever since, including last year launching [01:49:00] a 10-year initiative, which we call the Green Light District, to transform this one square mile called the Southside of Williamsburg, by knocking on everyone’s door, engaging everybody we can, block by block, to transform ourselves into a community at the highest level of community health and environmental wellness. Doing wellness assessments, looking at our physical, our emotional, our political, our environmental, our artistic, and cultural wellbeing, and then coming up with action plans, engaging everybody. Because you’re right, we’ve suffered gentrification, and a lot of our community, even though we’re still slightly the majority in the core aspect of the Southside, we won’t hold on to that for long. The important thing is for those of us who are here to stay here and to believe that we have a future here. And of course when you wake up one day [01:50:00] and all the bodegas are gone, and instead you have very nice French bistros and bagel stores and all kinds of other things. I’m not saying anything against them, right, but they’re not our bodegas, and they’re not our restaurants, and you, kind of, feel like it’s gone. And you’re not hearing salsa 56 �music at every street as we do in the summer, and you’re not seeing all the people playing dominoes everywhere as we used to, and what you mostly hear is some rock music. You begin to think it’s all over, and that all that’s left is for you to move, and we’re saying no, we’re staying here. So, in fact, we’re committing ourselves a green light to move forward, and so that’s what we’re doing. And thus the Green Light District involve five different committees and looking at greening spaces, looking at health, looking at making all the changes we need to shrink our carbon footprint in our homes and our buildings. Every aspect of our [01:51:00] life is covered by this Green Light District. And we have a fantastic garden, amazing gardeners from the so-called hipsters, white, upper- and middle-class young people who are now part of our community, to people from Bangladesh who are living among us, to, of course, Latinos, everybody. I always felt -- and I say this is kiddingly, but somewhat serious -- I think that we could have a really good comedy reality show just putting a camera on the garden because it’s so funny the kind of cultural stuff that comes up. It’s a riot. Keeps the person in charge of the garden very busy all the time. And, of course, we have our leadership centers. So we have three leadership centers in Williamsburg and one in Bushwick [01:52:00] where young people and two of them, adults, become -- are members of El Puente. We have two that are mostly adolescent, but two that are everybody from 6 years old to 60 and beyond. So we have all of these activities going on. And for some people with the most -and we are the most comprehensive Latino center for art and Culture; we have 29 artists on staff. For others, we’re the community health and environment 57 �institute, and all they hear about is the environmental justice work and stuff like that. And still for others, we’re the pioneers in educational reform, in the small school movement, in the social justice movement. Remember, there are no schools in social justice until we started one. Now, there are also kinds of schools for social justice. I remember the Albizo Campos School coming up from Chicago, and of course, they’re a private school, but we’re a public school. And until they really [01:53:00] brought it up, I said, I always know in the back of my mind that we’re good at infiltrating the system, you know, but they really brought it to witness it. They, “This is a public school,” and I said, “Yeah.” “They let you have these images and do this work, and you have Che Guevara everywhere, and you have all this stuff and...?” I said, “Yeah, of course.” “It’s a public school?” (laughter) I said, “Yes, it’s a public school.” So I think that brought it home to us how lucky we were actually in having a great chancellor, Joe Fernandez who believed in us and thought that we could create a great school, and I think we’ve lived up to it. We’re virtually A+ rated every year. Our young people... JJ: Isn’t that [Joe?] Fernandez from Lehman College, isn’t it? LA: I think he went to Lehman, I’m not sure. JJ: No, this guy was the president. LA: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. [01:54:00] No, he didn’t go to Lehman, no, not the same. That’s right, not Joe. JJ: I don’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 58 �LA: Joe actually is a New Yorker, joined the service. I think he got a GED, I’m not sure, I’m sure that’s how he started, you know, but eventually he became the -he became --he’s -- he became rather famous nationally as the head of the Dade County Public School System, and then he came to New York, a good guy. And he started this movement to create small schools, and he would allow these small schools to partner with the department of education if they had a good idea. These small groups, well, most of them were academicians, okay, universities, colleges, and stuff, and there were three of us that he accepted that were very different. One was the union, 1199, so they were allowed to start a school. One was a church, the Abyssinian Baptist Church, Powell’s old church, right, and [01:55:00] the other one was El Puente that was known more for taking over school buildings (laughter) than for, you know, creating them. And he believed in us, so, of course, everybody else didn’t, and they thought we would just implode in a year. And we wind up being a shining example of what is possible when you really want to do it. Of course, our secret weapon was Frances Lucerna, she was the founding principal, she moved the entire thing. Frances, who’s the executive director today, basically, we asked her, and she did it. She put the development team together, and she created a masterful school. JJ: Okay, if you wanna end, any final thoughts or any --? LA: I think you had asked me about Boston. Boston was -- look, I was part of the health and education ministry, as I said before, and mostly the health ministry, right, [01:56:00] the health part of that. And my daughter was very asthmatic, so I spent a lot of my time outside of Young Lords’ activities because I was in the 59 �hospital. She was given the last rites three times, so never expected to live. Thank God for steroids, which were experimental at the time, that saved her life one particular moment when she had almost expired. So, at that point, I had to take a leave absence. Juan talked to me, he says, “You can’t keep this up,” I said, “Okay.” But in that process, I had connected in my work with the Medical Committee for Human Rights, which was the activist group of doctors, and they had a student wing, and so... And I always had this dream from the seminary of becoming a doctor, of working in that area, so one thing [01:57:00] led to another, and I found myself really thinking. I mean I spent all this time in the hospitals really thinking about going to medical school but had no idea on how to do it. Never had seen a Puerto Rican doctor. And so I hooked up with this guy who was a part of the student wing of the Medical Committee for Human Rights, and he said, “You know what, you should apply for Harvard because only these big schools have the kind of money that can support you, and I think it’s possible.” And I said, “And they never had a Puerto Rican, a Puerto Rican, Dominican,” so, I said, “Okay,” and I applied. Now, it turns out that not only did they not have a Puerto Rican, they never had more than two African American students for their four-year program since the start of Harvard Medical School. And at any time since the beginning of that school -- and it’s the oldest medical school in the country -- would you ever find more than two Black people in the building until Martin [01:58:00] Luther King was assassinated. Then the faculty got together, and people started looking at themselves, started realizing that they were part of the same white supremacy structure that had brought upon the 60 �death of one of the most incredible leaders America ever had, and they decided to do something. So, of course, the more liberal, progressive side of that faculty wanted to make sure that we would include, in our admissions, people of color, and eventually, there was a compromise. That, yes, they would admit people of color, but not at the risk of giving up any white seat. So they expanded the class for the first time to include 22 African American young people, 1 Puerto Rican, Dominican, I think there were 3 Mexican Americans, 1 Native American. [01:59:00] I think that was it, and that’s how I got in, you know. JJ: Okay, any other last thought? LA: Oh, this is so much. (laughter) You’re making me think maybe I should write some of this. JJ: Look (inaudible) – END OF VIDEO FILE 61 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a779f73f74eab82cfdaf2def8254b0d5.mp4 da7e1d0eb53e5299a537949b76ff36bd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Luis Acosta vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Luis Acosta, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 10/25/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Acosta_Luis Title A name given to the resource Luis Acosta video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Acosta, Luis Description An account of the resource Oral history of Luis Acosta, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on October 25, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. In the video, a Latino man in a dark sweater sits in front of a bookshelf facing the camera, while speaking to the interviewer who is off camera. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- (interviewer) Audio Transcription Center (transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-10-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives