4 24 165 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/63f5d217662a92cb662f62b00c68c577.pdf d5e9828b9896510aa390dc9887577df6 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ramon Rodriguez Interviewers: Jose “Cha Cha” Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/23/2012 Biography and Description Ramón Rodríguez is a semi-retired school teacher who lives in the Lao Frío section of San Salvador, overlooking the home of his father Dimas Rodríguez Flores. He first met his cousin, José “Cha- Cha” Jiménez in 1963 when Mr. Jiménez was forcibly deported to Puerto Rico. Mr. Jiménez, who was 14years-old at that time, pleaded with his parents to send him to Sheraton, a juvenile prison where he would have remained until the age of 21, instead of being sent to Puerto Rico where he was born but had no understanding of life there. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Rodríguez and his older brother Juan became close to Mr. Jiménez. They also tried to dissuade Mr. Jiménez from forming a branch of the Young Lords in Puerto Rico because Mr. Rodríguez and his brothers were already leaders and did not want anything to do with a Chicago type gang in the barrio of San Salvador. Mr. Rodríguez recalls what San Salvador was like in those days. This was a stable area and family influence and networks were strong. Drugs did not start to enter -- not even in rural areas of Puerto Rico – until much later. The only thing that closely resembled a gang was the Titeres de La Plaza. These young men sat on the many boulders near the banana leaves, across from the store of Don Félix García, and got into petty mischief. Ultimately Mr. Rodríguez and others compromised and agree to call their group, Jovenes Nobles. Of course Mr. Jiménez remained a Titere because that bunch included many other cousins, and they were located in La Plaza, closer to where he was living with his grandparents, Tino and Don Goyo. The Jovenes Nobles set up a �recreation clubhouse for their young members. They began fundraising and someone donated a baby pig to raffle. The members traveled from house-to-house and hilltop-to-hilltop in the tropical sun to sell the tickets. On the day of the raffle, Mr. Rodríguez’s mother won the ticket. The Jovenes Nobles had to endure the gossip, but they kept the money and they ate the pig.Mr. Rodríguez also describes his move from San Salvador to Aurora, Illinois. In this interview, he bravely talks about the brief substance abuse problem he battled and the ways he hopes young people today might learn from his experiences. Today he once again lives in San Salvador. He remains a strong family person and is a well-respected leader. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aae856fffa8a07b8fa5897177e1603b0.mp4 1776b48f96c2c86d0d6571524066af58 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ramón Rodriguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Vida social y costumbres Juventud--Puerto Rico Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Ramon Title A name given to the resource Ramón Rodriguez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodriguez, Ramón Description An account of the resource Ramón Rodríguez is a semi-retired school teacher who lives in the Lao Frío section of San Salvador, overlooking the home of his father Dimas Rodríguez Flores. He first met his cousin, José “Cha- Cha” Jiménez in 1963 when Mr. Jiménez was forcibly deported to Puerto Rico. Mr. Jiménez, who was 14- years-old at that time, pleaded with his parents to send him to Sheraton, a juvenile prison where he would have remained until the age of 21, instead of being sent to Puerto Rico where he was born but had no understanding of life there. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Rodríguez and his older brother Juan became close to Mr. Jiménez. They also tried to dissuade Mr. Jiménez from forming a branch of the Young Lords in Puerto Rico because Mr. Rodríguez and his brothers were already leaders and did not want anything to do with a Chicago type gang in the barrio of San Salvador. Mr. Rodríguez recalls what San Salvador was like in those days. This was a stable area and family influence and networks were strong. Drugs did not start to enter -- not even in rural areas of Puerto Rico – until much later. The only thing that closely resembled a gang was the Titeres de La Plaza. These young men sat on the many boulders near the banana leaves, across from the store of Don Félix García, and got into petty mischief. Ultimately Mr. Rodríguez and others compromised and agree to call their group, Jovenes Nobles. Of course Mr. Jiménez remained a Titere because that bunch included many other cousins, and they were located in La Plaza, closer to where he was living with his grandparents, Tino and Don Goyo. The Jovenes Nobles set up a recreation clubhouse for their young members. They began fundraising and someone donated a baby pig to raffle. The members traveled from house-to-house and hilltop-to-hilltop in the tropical sun to sell the tickets. On the day of the raffle, Mr. Rodríguez’s mother won the ticket. The Jovenes Nobles had to endure the gossip, but they kept the money and they ate the pig.Mr. Rodríguez also describes his move from San Salvador to Aurora, Illinois. In this interview, he bravely talks about the brief substance abuse problem he battled and the ways he hopes young people today might learn from his experiences. Today he once again lives in San Salvador. He remains a strong family person and is a well-respected leader. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Social life and customs Youth--Puerto Rico Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0125a847a00ab6d74a31dcc382cf6b8f.pdf bd1861b8d3551aecdd15d6043723187f PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Juan Rodríguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/21/2012 Biography and Description Juan Rodríguez is an excellent organizer and community leader. He was a member and leader of the Jovenes Nobles social club in San Salvador, Puerto Rico, where he was born and raised. Mr. Rodríguez recalls how they grew from just some initial conversations and worked together to raise funds to open and a weight-lifting and social club for barrio youth. It was a wonderful experience he says, learning via hard knocks to go door-to-door. The Jovenes would also travel to other parts of Puerto Rico, going to parties, dances, and other events. Mr. Rodríguez explains that for many years, many people used the donated clubhouse and the weight lifting equipment, which they supported through fundraisers and membership dues. Mr. Rodríguez later followed other family members to Aurora, Illinois where he worked for many years at the Caterpillar Plant on Montgomery Road. There he used his acquired organizing skills to help Don Teo Arroyo, also of San Salvador, to recruit local business people to organize the annual dinner/dance and the coronation of a queen for the first Puerto Rican parades held in Aurora. He also worked for several mayors and other elected officials, using the parade as leverage to get needed programs to benefit the Puerto Rican community there. Mr. Rodríguez says that he never had a problem convincing politicians of this need because the Puerto Rican community controlled the votes. Later, Mr. Rodríguez heard about the organizing work of the Young Lords in Chicago’s Lincoln Park. By that time his relatives from the Jiménez family had also come to Aurora, moving from Lincoln �Park and Wicker Park, Chicago. They moved because “the rents were too high,” as Mr. Rodríguez recalls. In Aurora, the Jiménez family was able to rent a large home which they needed since it was always filled with relatives and friends. Mr. Rodríguez and his brother Ramón would visit their home regularly, and assisted with organizing the parades. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e798749c1c7155932f06736c8b28de6.mp4 299beee8f2809a7ac60d677d1c237d38 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Juan Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Juan Title A name given to the resource Juan Rodríguez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Juan Description An account of the resource Juan Rodríguez was a member and leader of the Jovenes Nobles social club in San Salvador, Puerto Rico, where he was born and raised. Mr. Rodríguez later followed other family members to Aurora, Illinois where he worked for many years at the Caterpillar Plant on Montgomery Road. Later, Mr. Rodríguez heard about the organizing work of the Young Lords in Chicago’s Lincoln Park. By that time his relatives from the Jiménez family had also come to Aurora, moving from Lincoln Park and Wicker Park. Mr. Rodríguez and his brother Ramón would visit their home regularly, and assisted with organizing the parades. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/26cca9fb5d943a205fe567fde895677f.pdf 55ed627c6306e61d87538a8d55f22b41 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Eugenia Rodríguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/10/2012 Biography and Description Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. The orphanage provided some discipline but she mostly did cleaning and other mundane work and was offered few opportunities to study. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. Mr. Jiménez was working as a hired field hand, farming the land for a portion of the yield. He soon proposed. They were married at the only church in the area at that time, and went to live in a one room, simple home in San Salvador.In many ways their life mirrored that of other poor families in the Puerto Rican countryside during the mid-1940s. Ms. Rodríguez helped with the chickens and the few cows and washed clothes on the rocks of the quebra. Mr. Jiménez became a seasonal tomatero, or tomato picker, for Andy Boy Farms in Minot, Massachusetts. After the death of their first daughter at just one year of age, Mr. Jiménez worked especially hard to bring Ms. Rodríguez to join him in the United States. In 1949, �Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York then boarded a Greyhound bus bound for Boston. Her daughter, Juana (Jenny), was born there. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago to be closer to the rest of Mr. Jiménez’s family who were already living there. At the migrant camp in Massachusetts, Doña Genia, as she was called, washed and ironed clothes for a profit. In Chicago things were not much different. She cooked and sold food to help her husband with the bills. Like many women, she further supplemented their income by setting up a lotería, or Spanish bingo games, in her home. It was not long after they arrived in Chicago that Ms. Rodríguez, like scores of other Puerto Rican families who occupied the homes in the prime real estate areas close to the downtown and the lake, received a notice that she would have to leave her home. They moved to Lincoln Park. Ms. Rodríguez began holding catechism classes in the living room of her home and joined the Caballeros de an Juan and the Damas de María in setting up Spanish masses and other services for the Catholic church. In later years, Ms. Rodríguez and Mr. Jiménez moved to Wicker Park, then to Aurora, Illinois, before finally returning to Puerto Rico where Mr. Jiménez built his dream home. He died just three months later. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/19c19278d20b4d7ad550210156e1eff1.mp4 c2a04d23027a05bf315e481b4ad96e93 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Eugenia Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 4 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Eugenia_4 Title A name given to the resource Eugenia Rodríguez video interview and biography, interview 4 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Eugenia Description An account of the resource Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez was sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so her father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. In 1949, Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York and then to Boston. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e2f8bbc4677a9b94267d78201f0ee2c1.pdf 84dff72082f095ab240bc41570784a86 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Eugenia Rodriguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/24/2012 Biography and Description Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. The orphanage provided some discipline but she mostly did cleaning and other mundane work and was offered few opportunities to study. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. Mr. Jiménez was working as a hired field hand, farming the land for a portion of the yield. He soon proposed. They were married at the only church in the area at that time, and went to live in a one room, simple home in San Salvador.In many ways their life mirrored that of other poor families in the Puerto Rican countryside during the mid-1940s. Ms. Rodríguez helped with the chickens and the few cows and washed clothes on the rocks of the quebra. Mr. Jiménez became a seasonal tomatero, or tomato picker, for Andy Boy Farms in Minot, Massachusetts. After the death of their first daughter at just one year of age, Mr. Jiménez worked especially hard to bring Ms. Rodríguez to join him in the United States. In 1949, �Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York then boarded a Greyhound bus bound for Boston. Her daughter, Juana (Jenny), was born there. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago to be closer to the rest of Mr. Jiménez’s family who were already living there. At the migrant camp in Massachusetts, Doña Genia, as she was called, washed and ironed clothes for a profit. In Chicago things were not much different. She cooked and sold food to help her husband with the bills. Like many women, she further supplemented their income by setting up a lotería, or Spanish bingo games, in her home. It was not long after they arrived in Chicago that Ms. Rodríguez, like scores of other Puerto Rican families who occupied the homes in the prime real estate areas close to the downtown and the lake, received a notice that she would have to leave her home. They moved to Lincoln Park. Ms. Rodríguez began holding catechism classes in the living room of her home and joined the Caballeros de an Juan and the Damas de María in setting up Spanish masses and other services for the Catholic church. In later years, Ms. Rodríguez and Mr. Jiménez moved to Wicker Park, then to Aurora, Illinois, before finally returning to Puerto Rico where Mr. Jiménez built his dream home. He died just three months later. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5203f6732b3a01f8dc0573f66b6dfae2.mp4 f98a1d578ea9b50f17cdaaa351bff6c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Eugenia Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 3 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Eugenia_3 Title A name given to the resource Eugenia Rodríguez video interview and biography, interview 3 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Eugenia Description An account of the resource Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez was sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. In 1949, Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York and then to Boston. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b8769865b5b3bcd7c159afd88c4f312d.pdf a5ff3777911b8f5afdd815ecfd3d271f PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Eugenia Rodriguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/30/2012 Biography and Description Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. The orphanage provided some discipline but she mostly did cleaning and other mundane work and was offered few opportunities to study. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. Mr. Jiménez was working as a hired field hand, farming the land for a portion of the yield. He soon proposed. They were married at the only church in the area at that time, and went to live in a one room, simple home in San Salvador.In many ways their life mirrored that of other poor families in the Puerto Rican countryside during the mid-1940s. Ms. Rodríguez helped with the chickens and the few cows and washed clothes on the rocks of the quebra. Mr. Jiménez became a seasonal tomatero, or tomato picker, for Andy Boy Farms in Minot, Massachusetts. After the death of their first daughter at just one year of age, Mr. Jiménez worked especially hard to bring Ms. Rodríguez to join him in the United States. In 1949, �Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York then boarded a Greyhound bus bound for Boston. Her daughter, Juana (Jenny), was born there. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago to be closer to the rest of Mr. Jiménez’s family who were already living there. At the migrant camp in Massachusetts, Doña Genia, as she was called, washed and ironed clothes for a profit. In Chicago things were not much different. She cooked and sold food to help her husband with the bills. Like many women, she further supplemented their income by setting up a lotería, or Spanish bingo games, in her home. It was not long after they arrived in Chicago that Ms. Rodríguez, like scores of other Puerto Rican families who occupied the homes in the prime real estate areas close to the downtown and the lake, received a notice that she would have to leave her home. They moved to Lincoln Park. Ms. Rodríguez began holding catechism classes in the living room of her home and joined the Caballeros de an Juan and the Damas de María in setting up Spanish masses and other services for the Catholic church. In later years, Ms. Rodríguez and Mr. Jiménez moved to Wicker Park, then to Aurora, Illinois, before finally returning to Puerto Rico where Mr. Jiménez built his dream home. He died just three months later. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e83503c89a17357c0bf06674b45bb2b4.mp4 a75c1df8bb96d9416589652be14ae4f4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Eugenia Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Eugenia_2 Title A name given to the resource Eugenia Rodríguez video interview and biography, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Eugenia Description An account of the resource Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez was sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. In 1949, Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York and then to Boston. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-30 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/23b1eecade9be0f40c3cfc236fb7f6fb.pdf 91d9b71955c98bef5f22976442c506e0 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Eugenia Rodriguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/4/2012 Biography and Description Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. The orphanage provided some discipline but she mostly did cleaning and other mundane work and was offered few opportunities to study. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. Mr. Jiménez was working as a hired field hand, farming the land for a portion of the yield. He soon proposed. They were married at the only church in the area at that time, and went to live in a one room, simple home in San Salvador.In many ways their life mirrored that of other poor families in the Puerto Rican countryside during the mid-1940s. Ms. Rodríguez helped with the chickens and the few cows and washed clothes on the rocks of the quebra. Mr. Jiménez became a seasonal tomatero, or tomato picker, for Andy Boy Farms in Minot, Massachusetts. After the death of their first daughter at just one year of age, Mr. Jiménez worked especially hard to bring Ms. Rodríguez to join him in the United States. In 1949, �Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York then boarded a Greyhound bus bound for Boston. Her daughter, Juana (Jenny), was born there. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago to be closer to the rest of Mr. Jiménez’s family who were already living there. At the migrant camp in Massachusetts, Doña Genia, as she was called, washed and ironed clothes for a profit. In Chicago things were not much different. She cooked and sold food to help her husband with the bills. Like many women, she further supplemented their income by setting up a lotería, or Spanish bingo games, in her home. It was not long after they arrived in Chicago that Ms. Rodríguez, like scores of other Puerto Rican families who occupied the homes in the prime real estate areas close to the downtown and the lake, received a notice that she would have to leave her home. They moved to Lincoln Park. Ms. Rodríguez began holding catechism classes in the living room of her home and joined the Caballeros de an Juan and the Damas de María in setting up Spanish masses and other services for the Catholic church. In later years, Ms. Rodríguez and Mr. Jiménez moved to Wicker Park, then to Aurora, Illinois, before finally returning to Puerto Rico where Mr. Jiménez built his dream home. He died just three months later. Transcription JOSÉ: Que se, se me puede a su nombre. EUGENIA: ¿Mi nombre? JOSÉ: Sí, otra vez. EUGENIA: Eugenia Rodriguez Flores. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Y naciste donde? EUGENIA: En San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿A qué año? ¿A qué fecho? EUGENIA: 1929, 6 de septiembre. JOSÉ: ¿1929? EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿En qué puente de San Lorenzo? :26 EUGENIA: Barrio Pino. JOSÉ: Barrio Pino, okay. ¿El otro lado de San Salvador de Caigua? EUGENIA: Mhmm. JOSÉ: ¿Por Morena? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Okay entonces…(pausa) Okay, se me puede… Okay, hoy vamos oral de catecismo que tú hiciste en la, en la Dayton en Chicago, en el área, en el área de Lincoln Park. :55/:55 EUGENIA: Mhm �JOSÉ: Entonces, ¿de qué, de qué te vino esta idea de hacer por los muchachos de barrio en Chicago? EUGENIA: Por la necesidad que no conocían bien a Jesucristo. 1:09 JOSÉ: ¿No conocieron bien a Jesucristo? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Pero entonces… Estabas… ¿en su familia hablaban de Jesucristo? EUGENIA: Sí, porque como yo nací en la religión católica. 1:23 Pues la religión católica pues, hay catecismo. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Y hay, sea era una religión antigua. JOSÉ: ¿Antigua? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Okay, entonces pero 1:38 así tiene la religión católica, pero ¿solo practicabas en tu familia, en tu casa? EUGENIA: Claro que sí. Daban catecismo en mi propia casa de mi papá. JOSÉ: ¿De tu papá? 1:48 ¿Y quien daba catecismo? EUGENIA: Daba catecismo…uh. Mi hermana, uh, Monotolibria. 1:56 JOSÉ: Okay, ¿Qué estaba cuidando cuando murió tu mamá, Victoria? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Okay entonces ¿ya daba el catecismo? EUGENIA: Si, y mi papá también. JOSÉ: ¿Y tu papá? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Entonces, ¿pero tenía un actale en la casa también? 2:08 EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Cómo parecía la actedesi? 2:11 EUGENIA: Pues era como pegado la pared en la sala y entonces allí había uno santo y una cosa la imagen. JOSÉ: Pues, eh, Juan, Don Juan … (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Él tenía eso. JOSÉ: ¿Y es un actale en la pared? 2:28 �EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: No era mesa, era en la pared. EUGENIA: En la pared. JOSÉ: Okay. Y entonces ¿qué santo tenía él? EUGENIA: Tenía el sagrado corazón de Jesús. JOSÉ: mkay. EUGENIA: La virgen del Carmen. JOSÉ: ¿La virgen del Carmen? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿En este tiempo la virgen del Carmen en Puerto Rico era…? EUGENIA: famosa JOSÉ: ¿famosa en este tiempo? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Yo creo que era cerca de San Lorenzo y en San Lorenzo apareció la… EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: apareció la virgen del Carmen. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Como por mil veinte por 26 o 27… EUGENIA: Bueno, yo parece el 29. Yo solo me contaron.. 3:08 JOSÉ: Pero ¿tenía la, un, un, un, un imagen de la virgen, un estatua? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: ¿Estatua o imagen? EUGENIA: Imagen. JOSÉ: ¿Tuvo la diferencia de un retrato? 3:16 EUGENIA: Un retrato. JOSÉ: ¿De la Virgen de Carmen? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Okay, entonces, tu papá daba catecismo… ¿Cómo, que decía él? EUGENIA: (pausa) Pues enseñaba la cosa, los mandamientos.. 3:34 �JOSÉ: ¿Los mandamientos? EUGENIA: Y los sacramentos. JOSÉ: Pero ¿Cómo, a cuándo lo hacía? ¿Por la tarde, por la mañana o…? EUGENIA: Uh, gracias siempre lo hacía por el día. JOSÉ: ¿Por el día? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Por qué no trabajaba la gente nueva en la recuerda? 3:47 EUGENIA: Porque así los sábados y los domingos. JOSÉ: ¿Y entonces viene todo el mundo? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Todo los hermanos? EUGENIA: Hermanos, primos, (pausa) gente vecinos, conocidos.. JOSÉ: ¿Viene a tu casa? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Y, y, y ¿Don Juan daba catecismo? EUGENIA: Hice catecismo en mi casa. 4:14 JOSÉ: ¿Cruzaba Don Juan o dorible a veces? EUGENIA: Lo daba mi hermana. JOSÉ: Turilia, Julia. 4:20 EUGENIA: Y… uh huh. Y allí todo el mundo… JOSÉ: ¿Don Juan no le daba? EUGENIA: No. Mi papá no. Mi papá enseñaba a rezar, a rezar el rosario. JOSÉ: ¿Cómo le ensenaba rezar el rosario? EUGENIA: Pues, corriendo un rosario y rezando la cuenta. (risa) 4:38 JOSÉ: Rezando la cuenta de lo nuestro padre nuestro y lo … EUGENIA: Sí, lo padre nuestro y la JOSÉ Y EUGENIA JUNTOS: ave maría. JOSÉ: Okay, como… Rezando rosario… EUGENIA: mhm �JOSÉ: Entonces te… perdona momento. 4:51 JOSÉ: Entonces Don Juan Rodriguez Flores. No, Don Juan… EUGENIA: Cos JOSÉ: Cos. Don Juan Coderia Cos. Él le te… enseñaba el rosario. Pero él… entonces ¿reza este rosario con toda esa gente que viene a los sábados y eso? EUGENIA: Toda la tarde, todo la tarde 5:12. JOSÉ: Toda la tarde también rezarlo. EUGENIA: con nosotros JOSÉ: ¿Toda la tarde rezaba ______? 5:16 EUGENIA: Con la familia. JOSÉ: ¿Desde pequeña hasta vieja? 5:21 EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Rezaba una clase con Don Juan. 5:25 EUGENIA: Reuní, reuní a toda la familia… en la sala… para que todo el mundo rezar el santo rosario. Entonces, él guiaba el rosario, lo misterio, todo. Y por una vez era un muchacho también, mi hermano. Pues rezaba el rosario o ponía a que aprendieron. 5:56 JOSÉ: Porque era su turno. EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Así le enseñaba. EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Pero ese durante la semana, entonces a fin de semana, los fines semana… los sábados o domingos. 6:08 EUGENIA: Mhm, los domingos. JOSÉ: Los domingos ¿por la tarde o por la mañana? Porque llevan por la mañana de la iglesia ¿no? EUGENIA: Pues sí, entonces… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿Todo el mundo va a iglesia? 6:18 EUGENIA: Sí, todo el mundo. Lo echaba el antecatedral. JOSÉ: Pertenece a la iglesia allí.. EUGENIA: obligat…. JOSÉ: allí de San Salvador. �EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: (ambos hablan pero José es más fuerte) Porque ya en ese tiempo, vivían en San Salvador, ¿verdad? EUGENIA: Sí porque no había otro (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿encagua? EUGENIA: …otra enseñanza sí, solamente… 6:36 JOSÉ: ¿Solamente hay única iglesia que iba allí? EUGENIA: mhm. Una capilla, se llama capilla, no ante… JOSÉ: ¿No te recuerdas el nombre? EUGENIA: (pausa) Juan Bautista o algo, no sé, no me recuerdo. JOSÉ: ¿No recuerdas? EUGENIA: No recuerdo. JOSÉ: Entonces, ¿pero todo el mundo iba e vivían de lo Monte Dores? 6:59 (ríe) EUGENIA: Las personas que vivían en el barrio iban a mi casa al catecismo a la enseñanza religiosa. JOSÉ: O, entonces ¿van a tu casa y no van a casa de otra gente? EUGENIA: Iban también pero donde se rezaba y se enseñaba era en mi casa. JOSÉ: Sugieren bien conocido allí en la capilla. EUGENIA: Uh huh JOSÉ: Rodriguez allí. EUGENIA: Claro que sí. 7:29 JOSÉ: ¿Y los Jiménez no eran conocidos en la capilla? EUGENIA: No, no había un Jiménez. JOSÉ: (ríe) ¿Por qué tú dices que no había un Jiménez? EUGENIA: Porque no había. ____________ los Jiménez. 7:37 JOSÉ: ¿Por qué no iban a iglesia era? EUGENIA: Yo no sé pero los Jiménez eran a, lo, eh… 7:43 JOSÉ: Tiene que alguien, alguien tiene que ir a la iglesia de los Jiménez. EUGENIA: Sí, pero era en otro, en otro barrio. Barrio San Salvador pero Barrio San Salvador tiene mucho… JOSÉ: Entrada. 7:55 �EUGENIA: Uh huh, ochenta… JOSÉ: ¿Por qué era una capilla allí? EUGENIA: ¿Huh? JOSÉ: ¿Por qué era una capilla? EUGENIA: en la plaza de San Salvador… JOSÉ: Y tú que, ¿tú quieres decir que entonces los Jiménez no iban allá? 8:06 EUGENIA: Pues iban también pero yo no me recuerdo. JOSÉ: Pero ¿no se me entaba? 8:10 EUGENIA: ¿huh? JOSÉ: ¿No se me entaba mucho? EUGENIA: No me… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: En la iglesia… EUGENIA: Oh. JOSÉ: En la iglesia. (pausa) Okay. Ahora entiendo. Porque no hubiera la iglesia. 8:19 EUGENIA: Una capilla. JOSÉ: Una capilla. Ere sí, que sí los Jiménez por lo mental, era que no iba mucho. EUGENIA: Sí, yo iba mucho. Yo iba mucho. 8:27 JOSÉ: (ríe) Entonces okay. Pues está bien. Este… Solo Rodríguez y la gente vaya y daba catecismo. Entonces quien, ¿herman dima? (pausa) ¿Chom? 8:42 EUGENIA: Compadre______ estaba pequeño. JOSÉ: ¿Tal pequeño? EUGENIA: Medio lleva tres años. 8:48 JOSÉ: Okay. Por tal pequeño. EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Pero entonces… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Estaba Margaro. JOSÉ: ¿Margaro? 8:55 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Ayudada a, a, a Don Juan? ¿ya Turilia? 9:01 �EUGENIA: Al catecismo. JOSÉ: Con catecismo. EUGENIA: No… JOSÉ: ¿Quién daba lo catecismo? 9:04 EUGENIA: Daba catecismo con Altolibria mi papá. Uh… y ___________ lo compadre de lo.. JOSÉ: ¿Danielle, (otros nombres no entiendo) 9:17 EUGENIA: Danielle. JOSÉ: ¿Y Danielle también? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: Okay entonces ¿Iban a los que daban a eso? EUGENIA: Seguro. 9:26 JOSÉ: Ignacia. EUGENIA: Ignacia tuvo una muchacha. JOSÉ: ¿Una muchacha ya? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Ya no daba el catecismo? EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿Prohibida a la iglesia? EUGENIA: Claro. Igual cataba en el catecismo estaba en mi casa. 9:40 JOSÉ: O, ¿lleva al catecismo? ¿Estaba allí? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: Entonces ¿se llenaba la casa entonces? EUGENIA: Pues claro porque todo el mundo iba a mi casa, la casa de mi papá. JOSÉ: ¿De puede la iglesia? EUGENIA: Uh, de, sería como una segunda iglesia porque era reunían. 9:54 JOSÉ: ¿Y puede la iglesia se lleva a tu casa? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Y se hace algo de comer o algo o qué? EUGENIA: Sí, cocinaban… �JOSÉ: Todo el mundo, ¿todo el mundo traen cosa? EUGENIA: No, solo mi papá lleva. JOSÉ: Lo _________. 10:09 EUGENIA: Un poco anteria finca. JOSÉ: El tener una finca. ¿Grande? ¿Era necesita? EUGENIA: Sí. Tenía cinco cuerdas. JOSÉ: Cinco cuerdas. Era su modo de daba comida y eso.10:18 EUGENIA: Si, porque empleaba arroz y achuwela… JOSÉ: Entonces el pa, el sacerdote igual de la casa, ¿no? EUGENIA: El sacerdote va a casa confesal… JOSÉ: ¿Confesa la gente (Eugenia tosió) en su casa? EUGENIA: Uh huh, confesaba la gente en mi casa. JOSÉ: ¿Y en la iglesia no? EUGENIA: También pero cuando iba a… JOSÉ: ¿La gente pidió confesión? EUGENIA: Cuando iban para antes de comulgar pues confesaban lo que querían confesar. 10:44 JOSÉ: En la iglesia. EUGENIA: En la, uh huh. JOSÉ: Fue también pasaba y daba la vuelta para confesar ama. EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Okay entonces, te… a su… este gente confesaba para otra semana, entonces… Tienen que… EUGENIA: Le confesaban a eso para… antes de comulgar. Antes de comulgar… 11:03 JOSÉ: (interrumpe a Eugenia) Soltaba allí… pero como… si el padre, si el sacerdote confesar en la iglesia, ¿cómo va a confesar en la casa tuya también? EUGENIA: Pues confesaba lo que no podía ir a la iglesia porque viene enfermo y entonces a los enfermos confesaban en la casa. 11:21 JOSÉ: Oh ¿En la casa de ellos? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Se daba la vuelta y regrese? EUGENIA: Seguro. �JOSÉ: ¿Iban los enfermos a tu casa? EUGENIA: Uh huh. Entonces llevo la comunión a los… JOSÉ: ¿a los enfermos y eso? EUGENIA: a los enfermos… sí. JOSÉ: ¿Y en este tiempo vea la carretera es cemento? 11:35 EUGENIA: No… camino. JOSÉ: ¿Camino? EUGENIA: (tos) uh huh JOSÉ: ¿Pero viene el padre con un caballo o auto? 11:43 EUGENIA: A caballo. JOSÉ: A caballo viene la… okay. Por allí en este tiempo. Y tiene JEEP también, ¿no? ¿Después? EUGENIA: Después, eso fue después, que yo me recuerdo bien. JOSÉ: Sí, pero en ese tiempo ¿no le recuerdas los sacerdotes de este tiempo? ¿El sacerdote? EUGENIA: Padre Otelio. Otelio. JOSÉ: Padre Otelio 12:04 EUGENIA: Otelio. (pausa) JOSÉ: Entonces, ¿él era puertorriqueño o americano? EUGENIA: Americano. Casi no sabía en hablar español. JOSÉ: (ríe) ¿Y la gente lo respetaba como quiera? EUGENIA: Pues claro. No llevan nada. JOSÉ: Pero era todo americano… EUGENIA: Todo americano. No había nada de que fueron… de puedes fue que… que aprendieron alguno puertorriqueño. Él salvieron así sacerdote y esa cosa tuvieron porque su tiene que tener un estudio y entonces como era un pobre, no podía… no podía ir a los sitios donde era el estudio por San Juan o por eso sitio. JOSÉ: Mm okay. Y entonces ¿allí aprendiste como, como esa cosa, aprendiste de catecismo? 12:58 EUGENIA: Pues aprendí en mi casa, se hablaba de catecismo… y se rezaba. Y catecismo era para aprender los mandamientos, los sacramentos, los siete sacramentos y los mandamientos de la iglesia. JOSÉ: Okay bueno, pero entonces fue también aprendiste… porque tú también hacía este… se le sobaba la gente con aceite y eso ¿de verdad? �EUGENIA: uh… JOSÉ y EUGENIA hablan a la misma vez. 13:25 JOSÉ: a mí sobaba .. EUGENIA: Solo me aprendí JOSÉ: _____ de aceite. 13:29 EUGENIA: Con mi papá. JOSÉ: (ríe) ¿Con tu papá también lo hacía? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Juan? 13:33 EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Estás seguro no era bien católico patólico? EUGENIA: Pero eso, eso es una cosa que es cates… eh ¿católico? Daba una soba a una persona. Él como yo ahora como __________ y eso no tiene nada que ver. 13:51 JOSÉ: Soba a una pero cuando se, cuando le mete aceite. EUGENIA: Voy a aceite, la aceite a para que revelar la mano… puedo corregir los músculos de la mano y desde lugar. JOSÉ: O, el aceite… el aceite… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Tapa para que… la vena. JOSÉ: Revale la, la, la mano y eso. 14:14 EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. JOSÉ: Entonces, pero entonces, pero también rezaba a los santos… la… EUGENIA: Pues todo el tiempo los católicos rezan a los santos. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Porque todo el tiempo se les rezan… Porque ¿a quién más rezan? JOSÉ: ¿A qué santo le rezaba en este tiempo? 14:32 EUGENIA: A la Virgen María. Porque la virgen María pues (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿La virgen de Carmen? ¿La virgen de Carmen? EUGENIA: La virgen de Carmen, la virgen de… La virgen María la principal. JOSÉ: Sí, okay. 14:44 �EUGENIA: Entonces, después eso eh… se le pone el nombre según el lugar donde estaba o donde apareció. 14:53. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Sí el monte Carbarrio, el monte, el monte Carmelo usa, se dice la virgen de Carmen. JOSÉ: ¿Porque había un monte Carmelo? EUGENIA: Eh.. JOSÉ: ¿En San Lorenzo? EUGENIA: Monte Carbarrio, seguro. JOSÉ: ¿En San Lorenzo había un monte Carmelo? 15:09 EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Entonces ¿se puso la virgen de Carmen? EUGENIA: __________ según el pueblito, según la fecha que aparece. 15:18 JOSÉ: Sí. Entonces se rezan a la virgen pero entonces ¿rezan a la virgen de, de otro sitio? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: La aparición otro sitio. 15:28 EUGENIA: La Guadalupe, como en México. JOSÉ: Como México la Guadalupe, sí. EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Okay ahora entiendo. Entonces te (pausa) pero (pausa) pero a veces una ejercito para pagarse en la lotería también, ¿no? 15:43 EUGENIA: Alguna gente, alguna gente… JOSÉ: Mhm. EUGENIA: …que no entiende lo que son las cosas de Dios. Pues le pide en eso y tal aprenden bella. JOSÉ: Depende… (Hablan a la misma vez.) ¿Aprenden bella también? EUGENIA: Para que Gonzela. 15:57 JOSÉ: ya EUGENIA: Cuando no le dice una promesa de tal, de vestirme de sac. JOSÉ: Mhm 16:05 EUGENIA: Si me dame esto. Ella no puede darse dio no le da. JOSÉ: Pero… �EUGENIA: Pero la ignorancia, ¿verdad? JOSÉ: Entonces ¿tú debes vestirte de sac o una vez también de otro bese por allí en Chicago? EUGENIA: Cinco que… Seguro… eh… porque lo que vale él el penitencia y y y como la gente se ríe y uno lo cuelga de broma ¿verdad? Tiene que uno cuelgo de broma porque la gente no sabe, no sabe de eso. JOSÉ: ¿Cómo yo no hablo de eso? 16:33 EUGENIA: Entienden. JOSÉ: Yo sé, yo no sé. pero tú con ________________ respetua 16:42 EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Okay, yo sé que te vestiste de, como saco de, de (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Hmm, había un hábito. JOSÉ: Un, un hábito EUGENIA: Sí JOSÉ: Un hábito. Y entonces ¿por qué forque de vestirte de esta manera? 16:53 EUGENIA: Yo no… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿En Chicago en la Dayton? EUGENIA: Yo no me recuerdo bien pero fue por al, por al, por algo que (pausa) que yo quería recibir. Y la única forma era ser una penitencia. Pero no me recuerdo, no me recuerdo… JOSÉ: ¿Nada que ver conmigo, con papi, nada eso? 17:16 EUGENIA: Bueno sí porque casi siempre era por tu papá. (risa pequeña) JOSÉ: Pero ¿por qué era de mi papá? ¿De Antonio? EUGENIA: Para que dejar el vicio toman… JOSÉ: ¿Tiene un vicio tomare? 17:25 EUGENIA: mhm. JOSÉ: Y entonces… okay ¿él quiere dejar el vicio o quería dejar el vicio? EUGENIA: El no quería dejarlo porque se daba con todos los primos y todo. 17:37 JOSÉ: _______ vieja EUGENIA: esachua vieja 17:39 JOSÉ: ¿Y tú quieres dejar a eso? EUGENIA: Yo quería dejar todo eso. Pero no dejaba. 17:46 �JOSÉ: Entonces no lo hecho por un año. Vestiste de un saco. EUGENIA: Vestido de hábito también fue… JOSÉ: Le digo eso porque la gente en la comunidad te veían. 17:59 EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Y dice, “que le pasa esa señora.” Y … ¿y cómo quiera seguir con, con la promesa? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Por qué era penitencia? EUGENIA: Era una penitencia. JOSÉ: Okay. Y y que… ¿yo te parece lleva así? EUGENIA: ¿Cómo? 18:10 JOSÉ: Igual ______________ ¿Por qué era una penitencia, okay? EUGENIA: Un sacrificio __________ un sacrificio _________deseo que tu tenga ropa bonita y todo y no te puedes poner por cierto tiempo. (pausa) ¿Por qué? Porque mandate la promesa vestirte de esa forma. Y él no puede _______ otra ropa sino la ropa que tú dijiste que te vas a poner. JOSÉ: ¿Por un año? EUGENIA: Sí, por un año. JOSÉ: Por un año (hablan a la misma vez) EUGENIA: año, dos años JOSÉ: Okay, ¿pero por un año andate? 18:45 EUGENIA: ¿huh? JOSÉ: Por un año andante por la Dayton. EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: En un saco que de San Francis de Assisi. EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: ¿Parecido a eso? EUGENIA: Seguro JOSÉ: Con el colon por el lado. EUGENIA: ____________ 18:57 JOSÉ: Eso se le pone en la, en la.. EUGENIA y JOSÉ JUNTOS: la cabeza �JOSÉ: y todo eso EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Se parecía el saco de San Francia de Assisi. 19:05 EUGENIA: Pues claro tiene que ser la… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: Eso fue… ¿Eso fue por Antonio Jiménez para que dejarle la vida? EUGENIA: Dejarle la vida. JOSÉ: ¿Entonces no la dejó? EUGENIA: La dejó un tiempo como seis meses y_____ volvió otra vez. 19:18 JOSÉ: ¿Por qué… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Pero no tanto. JOSÉ: Pero ¿tú le estaba diciendo implicando que era por eso? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Porque te preguntaba que _______ era así 19:26 Tú le diste __________ vivida. EUGENIA: JOSÉ: Yo no decía _______ promesa dice que dijera. 19:33 Un promesa que hiciste menos sabía. EUGENIA: menos sabía___________ 19:38 JOSÉ: So entonces (pausa) ¿Fue en este tiempo que existe el catecismo? ¿Con los muchachos de la, del barrio hay de Lincoln Park? EUGENIA: (pausa) um… (pausa) JOSÉ: Organizado como un grupo de un muchacho. ¿Recuerdas eso o no? EUGENIA: Más o menos para eso tiempo. (pausa) Igual como yo estaba… en el grupo de las Damas de María, entre las Damas de María. 20:12 JOSÉ: ¿En San Miguel? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: St. Michael’s church allá. ¿Con el padre…? EUGENIA: ¿He, Hedling? JOSÉ: Hedling. Father Hedling. EUGENIA: Hedling. JOSÉ: Era de la Dama de María para el padre Catherine. ¿Quién era él? EUGENIA: ¿Padre Cartel? �JOSÉ: También. EUGENIA: Padre Hedling, los dos. 20:29 JOSÉ: Okay. ¿En la iglesia de San Miguel? EUGENIA: En la iglesia San Miguel. JOSÉ: Okay en la Cleveland y Eugene por allí, ¿no? en Chicago EUGENIA: Sí. 20:36 JOSÉ: Okay entonces, eh, okay entonces (pausa) Porque estabas en la Dama de Mared, ¿cómo era las Damas de María? EUGENIA: Pues eso (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿Qué es eso? EUGENIA: El nombre de dama de María. JOSÉ: ¿Y quién estaba contigo? EUGENIA: Había un grupo tanto grande. JOSÉ: ¿Pero quién estaba? EUGENIA: Yo no me recuerdo ahora. 21:00 JOSÉ: Estaba Glo, ¿Glotilde? EUGENIA: ¡No! Ya no _______ JOSÉ: ¿Esa no? 21:04 EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿Estaba Marta? EUGENIA: ¿________ Marta? Yo no creo, no recuerdo tampoco. 21:10 JOSÉ: ¿Estaba Calito? ¿Cómo se llama? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Ina? EUGENIA: ________ JOSÉ: ¿Cómo se llama? ¿Ina o algo así? EUGENIA: ¿Cómo? 21:19 JOSÉ: ¿Cómo Ina o ella? Calito ____________ posa. EUGENIA: mmm �JOSÉ: ¿Quién estaba _____ ahora? EUGENIA: (grande pausa) Yo digo estaba Patria. JOSÉ: Patria, okay. EUGENIA: Estaba… hmm… (risa) No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: Pero estaba Patria contigo. EUGENIA: Sí, Patria estaba, yo sé. Ese me recuerdo pero no me recuerdo bien. JOSÉ: ¿Y y Nini no estaba? EUGENIA: ¿Quién? JOSÉ: ¿Cristina Nini? 21:51 EUGENIA: No _____________ JOSÉ y EUGENIA hablan a la misma vez. EUGENIA: Nunca ______. JOSÉ: Okay entonces pero yo creo que Glota estaba allí en la San Miguel. Pues estaba allí… yo sé que estaba allí en, en el número nueve. 22:03 EUGENIA: No, pero sí Glota todavía no estaba. JOSÉ: Ooh, Monin. Monin estaba. EUGENIA: Monin Jiménez, sí. JOSÉ: Monin Jiménez estaba en la, en la San Miguel. EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Y entonces la hija de, la esposa de Medego ¿Cómo se llamó? 22:18 EUGENIA: uh… JOSÉ: ¿Ella estaba? EUGENIA: ¿eh? JOSÉ: ¿Ella estaba? EUGENIA: Sí. (pausa) Ay, se me olvidó. Era como madre mía. Se me olvidó. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: (pausa) No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: Pero era de Merdego. EUGENIA: Sí. (interrumpida) �JOSÉ: ¿Y no era caldito? ¿Era caldito? EUGENIA: ¿huh? JOSÉ: ¿Él era caldito? ¿Moreno? EUGENIA: Él era caldicho. JOSÉ: ¿Sí? EUGENIA: Y había otro santiti 22:47 JOSÉ: Oh Titi Francisco, eso Francisco. EUGENIA: Francisco. JOSÉ: Entonces ¿le puso estaba él? ¿Allí en la dama? 22:52 EUGENIA: Sí porque la, la, la esposa… JOSÉ: Porque ¿Titi estaba no echaría también? 22:59 EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: (risa) ¿So la, la esposa de estaba en la dama de María? 23:03 EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Creo que Titi estaba Francisco. 23:05 EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Sí… EUGENIA: (pausa) Eh que, son tantos los años que uno… JOSÉ: Sí. Yo entiendo. Pero había un grupito allí y entonces ¿qué hacía ____________ la dama de María allí en San Miguel? 23:17 EUGENIA: Pues, hacía no actividades. JOSÉ: ¿De qué, qué clase? EUGENIA: Y nos dio comida. JOSÉ: ¿Dieron comida? EUGENIA: mhm. JOSÉ: ¿Arroz chuela? 23:26 EUGENIA: Lo que apareciera. (risa) JOSÉ: ¿Lo que apareciera a pa de? ¿Pader y todo eso? 23:31 EUGENIA: Todo _____________ �JOSÉ: ¿Y donde lo vendían? EUGENIA: Ellos me lo ___________ el hall. JOSÉ: ¿En el hall? O ¿había un hall? 23:39 EUGENIA: Sí, entonces está locura con ella. JOSÉ: ¿Con ella? EUGENIA: (está riendo) 23:43 JOSÉ: Pero entonces ¿La misa estaba en el hall o en la capilla? EUGENIA: En el hall. JOSÉ: ¿En el hall? EUGENIA: En un salón en la mesa. 23:52 JOSÉ: Con el, oh cuatro treinta tres de la Eugene, era el hall. Yo creo que apuntes eso bien. EUGENIA: hm JOSÉ: Yo creo que fue corto __________ de los Eugenes. Bueno. ¿Allí cerca de la Cleveland al lado de la iglesia? 24:08 EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: So entonces, ¿por qué se reunió en el hall y no en la capilla? EUGENIA: Porque eso era, uh, porque era un poquito. JOSÉ: Okay. 24:22 EUGENIA: Y entonces pues… Como era un poquito, eh.. JOSÉ: ¿Pero el hall se llenaba? 24:32 EUGENIA: ¿Huh? JOSÉ: Era poquito pero ¿el hall se llenaba? Había como dosci… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Sí, se llenaba y pues, entonces pasa por la iglesia. JOSÉ: ¿Pudo pasar a la iglesia después? EUGENIA: Sí. 24:42 JOSÉ: Empezaron en el hall. EUGENIA: Uh huh, empezamos en el hall. Y como les daba tu sabes propina a la Baroque. 24:51 JOSÉ: ¿Se daba propina también? EUGENIA: Seguro. �JOSÉ: (risa) ¿Sí? (risa) EUGENIA: Porque darle uno a eso. JOSÉ: Okay. Porque de _________ 25:03 EUGENIA: (risa) JOSÉ: ¿Qué no querían era o qué? EUGENIA: No porque como eso era desconocido. Eso le dar (pausa) esa clase así eso era algo desconocido para ellos para Baroque. Pero cuando vieron como los, los puertorriqueños, o sea las Damas de María y los caballeros de San Juan. Esas cosas se trabajaba en conjunto. Para el sacerdote se pusieron muy contento. 25:32 JOSÉ: Al principio no entendían. EUGENIA: No entendían. JOSÉ: Le da miedo. Le da miedo. EUGENIA: No era miedo, era algo como desconocido para ellos que no entendían. El porqué la eso. 25:45 JOSÉ: _____________ EUGENIA: Cuando, cuando vieron, el churro Rodriguez era encargado. 25:51 JOSÉ: ¿Eso Rodriguez? ¿Pudo encargado allí? EUGENIA: uh, él, él, él… le fue diciendo __________ Pablo entonces. 26:01 JOSÉ: Otro edad. EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Entonces (interrumpida) 26:05 JOSÉ: ¿So Pablo tiene el importante allí? EUGENIA: To, todo lo, todo ese grupo, los caballeros de San Juan… JOSÉ: Los caballeros de San Juan, okay. EUGENIA: Eran importante ya. 26:14 JOSÉ: Miguel Chebre EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Y Cesario… Rivera o algo así. Cesario Rivera. EUGENIA: mhm �JOSÉ: César, César. EUGENIA: César JOSÉ: de revueldo es César. 26:23 EUGENIA: Más o menos yo veo ya no me recuerdo. (risa) JOSÉ: Okay. Pero Pablo tiene edad se esa Miguel Chebre EUGENIA: y… No cuanto… 26:37 JOSÉ: Roman… tu hermano Roman también era importante, ¿no? Era conocido, ¿eh? EUGENIA: Después, sí. JOSÉ: ¿Él predicaba? 26:45 EUGENIA: Seguro porque, que… No siguieron conociendo. Y la Baroque hace el sacerdote… Se dieron cuenta la necesidad que había poca porque había niño, había… sabe… era un grupo grande. Entonces se dieron cuenta que había… Y entonces se dieron. Pero cuales, se empezó en un hall y pues cambiaron a la iglesia. JOSÉ: Okay ¿dijeron que había un grupo grande y se llenó esta iglesia? 27:22 EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: ¿Se llenó la iglesia entonces? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Entonces ¿pero su fue el primer año que luciera hiciera __________? 27:31 EUGENIA: Como dos años. JOSÉ: Fue dos años la misa en la capilla. EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Entonces allí… Entonces tú… durante este tiempo, porque empieza allí en la San Miguel con la dama y eso. Entonces ¿decidiste tu misma hacer el grupo de catecismo? ¿O te mandaron hacerlo? 27:53 EUGENIA: Porque ya, yo creo que este Chur Rodrigo o algo había empezado y como sabían que yo sabía también. Pues yo seguí haciendo el grupo de Damas de María. 28:10 JOSÉ: La Dama de María, ¿trabajaste en eso? EUGENIA: Yo trabajé en eso. JOSÉ: ¿En Dama de María en San Miguel, en San Miguel? EUGENIA: En San Miguel. JOSÉ: Pero entonces… pero entonces te hablan… pero… entonces ¿fue… ______ mucha allí voluntaria en la Dama de María? �EUGENIA: Claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿En San Miguel? 28:30 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Pero ¿Quién era la líder? ¿Quién era? EUGENIA: ¿Cómo? JOSÉ: De las mujeres, ¿quién era, había una líder, quién era la presidente? ¿Eso no sabe? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Pero tú no eras la presenta? EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿Tú trabajabas voluntaria? EUGENIA: Yo trabajaba voluntaria. JOSÉ: Okay entonces… (pausa) ¿Cómo decidiste hacer el grupo de catecismo en la Dayton? ¿Y vuelvo en la Dayton? ______se queda la vuelvo. 28:56 EUGENIA: Porque ya echurro Rodriguez lo formó. Entonces pues codieron la persona que podría ser dando catecismo. 29:06 JOSÉ: O, ¿él formó lo grupo de catecismo? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Entonces ¿tú fuiste, tú decidiste hacerlo en otra casa? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ____Se reunió con la gente ______ pasarle el grupo de catecismo. EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. 29:17 JOSÉ: Entonces ¿que mataban catecismo este tiempo? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: ¿Pero habían man mujeres? EUGENIA: mam mujeres o … JOSÉ: ¿O y hombre? ¿Daba catecismo en la casa? 29:29 EUGENIA: Pues no, no, no, _________ lo cambiaron a, cuando los caballeros de San Juan… JOSÉ: No estoy hablando de la misa, estoy hablando de… tú recuerdas (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Pero el caballero de San Juan empezaron por el… viendo por la casa tocándolo la gente. 29:48 JOSÉ: ¿Cómo viendo, tocaba en la puerta? �EUGENIA: Pues seguro. Donde quiere _________ cuando era puertorriqueño, pues habían hablaban de la religión. JOSÉ: ¿Y le tocaban la puerta? EUGENIA: Entonces, pues claro tocaba la puerta porque donde cuando vineron puertorriqueño. 30:04 JOSÉ: Allí (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Querían venir a la misa, querían iglesia, no sabe. 30:08 JOSÉ: Y entonces ¿allí viene a la misa? EUGENIA: Pues claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Y entonces pero se daba el rosario en la casa y eso también? 30:14 EUGENIA: Bueno, por regular haya que persona que, que rezaba el santo rosario por rezaba el rosario. Y alguna persona que quiere unirse pues unía a rosario si no pues… Uno deseo que uno rezaba. 30:32 JOSÉ: Entonces ¿tú rezabas en casa como así? EUGENIA: Claro. Yo rezaba en casa. JOSÉ: Okay, entonces los caballeros San Juan y eso así, ¿qué clase de actividades hicieron allí en San Miguel? Que tú te recuerdas. EUGENIA: Bueno… (pausa) Lo más era se vendía comida. 30:51 JOSÉ: ¿Comida? EUGENIA: A la misma gente. 30:53 JOSÉ: ¿Le puede la misa? EUGENIA: Le puede la misa… JOSÉ: ¿En el gimnasio? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Había un gimnasio grande? EUGENIA: En el hall. JOSÉ: ¿En el hall? O ¿vendía comida allí en el hall? 31:04 EUGENIA: Pues claro. Así cocinaba, cocinaba y vendían la comida a la gente. Jugaba el Bingo. 31:12 JOSÉ: ¿Después de la misa? EUGENIA: Seguro. No enternía no hay. 31:19 JOSÉ: Pero ¿Bingo en inglés o Bingo en español? EUGENIA: En Español. �JOSÉ: ¿Se pueden jugar lotería en español? 31:22 EUGENIA: Pues claro. No era malo. JOSÉ: Pero ¿no era por dinero? EUGENIA: ____Eso para condigo____ 31:30 (Ríen juntos) Echaba el bosillo así, yo calleito. JOSÉ: (ríe) Siguiendo la lotería así en la sala. EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿A las condiciones… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Cuando la persona se ganaba _______ dos, tres, lo que fuera. Pues, todos miraban y miraban ________________y pasaban el dinero. 31:50 JOSÉ: ¿Allá en la memhall o en la memiglesia también? EUGENIA: En la iglesia, no es posible en el hall. 31:55 JOSÉ: ¿En el hall? (ambos ríen) ¿So era después de la misa? 32:05 EUGENIA: Pues, antes de la misa para que cosa era. JOSÉ: Sí. Habla de… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Había un día para eso. Había un día para eso. JOSÉ: Y entonces ¿la gente lo hace en galleito? 32:11 EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿Sí? (ríe) EUGENIA: No es algo publicar 32:15 JOSÉ: Sí. ¿No se publicaban en la iglesia y tampoco no se publicado en __hijeria también _______________. 32:22 (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Sí, así. JOSÉ: ¿Publicaba en el número en el ______ también? EUGENIA: Uh huh. No, yo creo que no, yo no sé. JOSÉ: Yo, yo oí que decían este… hay hay hay pantalones sin cuenta, hay camisa. EUGENIA: Más o menos, más o menos. 32:40 JOSÉ: Así en el ejaria, ¿no? 32:41 EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Solo ______cholocatón______? EUGENIA: Seguro. 32:41 �JOSÉ: (ríe) Yo me recuerdo eso. EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Porque yo me recuerdo de eso porque _______ estaba que tiene la ganga esta semana. 32:52 (ríen) El número ____________ EUGENIA: Número nueve JOSÉ: ________________ EUGENIA: Pero yo no me recuerdo. 32:58 JOSÉ: Entonces, okay… Okay entonces este (pausa) Okay. So hacían eso, jugaban lotería. Y entonces, esta… (pausa) jugaban lotería… y entonces… ¿No había un baile, no tiraban un baile? 33:18 EUGENIA: Sí, hacían baile. JOSÉ: ¿A dónde tienen un baile? EUGENIA: (pausa) En el hall. 33:30 JOSÉ: ¿Gimnasio? ¿Era un gimnasio? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: ¿Grande? Entonces ¿llamaré como también traen comida al gimnasio? EUGENIA: Pues claro. Era el propósito de hacer el baile para vender comida. JOSÉ: Okay. 33:39 EUGENIA: Entonces _____________ se pagaba el hall y se pagaba el hall y (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿O, tiene que pagar el hall? 33:44 EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: (pausa) Este… (pausa) Entonces te (pausa) Okay, entonces tiraban el baile y eso y entonces ¿Qué otra actividades haciendo los caballeros de San Juan y las Damas de María? EUGENIA: Hacían el baile. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Que yo me recuerdo el baile. JOSÉ: (hablan a la misma vez) Pero iban, ¿iban mucha gente al baile? 34:14 EUGENIA: Sí, iban mucho. JOSÉ: Pero entonces ¿la gente bailaban bien o eran cosas sencillas que no era _________? EUGENIA: Yo no recuerdo bien eso. Bailaban. 34:23 JOSÉ: Pero ¿todo el mundo baila como chachacha o el salsa? �EUGENIA: Era otra cosa. Igueleros 34:28 JOSÉ: ¿Igueleros y otra cosa? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Y entonces pero ¿llevan gente que bailaban bien? Me conocido de Churro o de José bailaban… EUGENIA: Bailaban todo ellos. 34:44 JOSÉ: Chacha. ¿Bailaban todos ellos bien? EUGENIA: Sí bailaban bien por lo comienzo (ríe) bien pero… JOSÉ: Sí. 34:46 EUGENIA: Bailaban, bailaban. JOSÉ: ¿Pero todo el mundo se llenaba el gimnasio? 34:49 EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. Habí, uh, iba mucho. JOSÉ: Y la música. ¿Era de radio o qué? 34:55 EUGENIA: A veces…tocaban cuatro guitarras. JOSÉ: ¿Sí, tocaban a eso? 35:02 EUGENIA: Y acordeón. JOSÉ: ¿Y acordeón y eso? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Y banda de conjunto y eso? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo hace muchos años. Ya no me recuerdo. 35:13 JOSÉ: Entonces ¿las damas iban y cocinaban en la cocina? EUGENIA: Nosotros nos tocaban la tarea de cocinar. JOSÉ: ¿Damas, las mujeres, las damas? EUGENIA: Ah huh. JOSÉ: Entonces pero ¿los caballeros trabajaban también, no? EUGENIA: Pues claro. (interrumpida) 35:25 JOSÉ: ¿Qué hacían los caballeros? Las mujeres cocinaban… ¿Qué hacían los hombres? EUGENIA: Pues… llevaban las cosas porque nosotras cocinaban. JOSÉ: ¿Los cargaron y eso? EUGENIA: mhm �JOSÉ: ¿Y limpiaban y eso? EUGENIA: Todo el mundo limpiaba. Los hombres, mujeres, todos. Había que dejar el lugar limpio. 35:47. JOSÉ: Okay, entonces ¿tener que pagar la renta también de la iglesia? EUGENIA: Claro que sí. Claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Es una grátin? ¿Tiene que _______ a la iglesia? 35:56 EUGENIA: mhm. Era para la iglesia. JOSÉ: Bueno para la iglesia pero también para los caballeros, ¿no? 36:03 EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: So era ___participa__________ 36:06 EUGENIA: Para los caballeros para seguir adelante, entonces para seguir compando aquí por cosa de… 36:15 JOSÉ: ¿Cómo equipo? EUGENIA: Pues… (pausa) Si necesitaban una guitarra, un patro o algo. JOSÉ: ¿De lo compraban de su mismo? 36:25 EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Entonces, ___se daba presto________ dieron. EUGENIA: No sé. 36:31 JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: La cosa que era así así para… para ayudar a la iglesia. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿De San Miguel? EUGENIA: Y para que ellos no se dejaron esta actividad. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Eso era como pagando a la Baroque para que dejara… JOSÉ: ¿Para que dejara hacerlo? EUGENIA: Ah huh. 36:50 JOSÉ: Porque lo pagaban no podían hacer si no tenían dinero. EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: No lo podían hacer. EUGENIA: Pues no se podían. 36:56 �JOSÉ: ¿Tienen pagar genta? EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Entonces no había, bueno, hay dinero. Entonces, ¿no se hace, no de la misa tampoco? EUGENIA: No, la misa siempre la esa misa ________ estaba ofrenda. JOSÉ: Sí. 37:13 EUGENIA: Entonces se ofrenda para los sacerdotes. JOSÉ: Entonces este… ¿Habían otros actividades, también, verdad? EUGENIA: Sí, después siguieron hacer actividades… JOSÉ: ¿Qué tip…? ¿Pero qué otro tipo de actividades? 37:30 EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: ¿No había _______ y eso? EUGENIA: Sí, ha ______ retiro. JOSÉ: ¿Cómo era esa de _________? De que tú recuerdas de eso. EUGENIA: Pues iban…. que predicaban … _________ retiro y predicaban. JOSÉ: Me dijeron que ¿iban en corbata y todo eso? 37:53 ¿Y trae? ¿A predicá y eso? ¿Se vistieron bien? EUGENIA: Sí, claro, seguro que sí. JOSÉ: La gente viene bien como la iglesia … en el domingo. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Con corbata y todo eso? ¿Y zapato limpio? 38:12 EUGENIA: Claro. Pues claro ________________________ 38:11 Seguro, un día de que llevar zapato y todo. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Y había bastante gente entonces ya? ¿Se llenó eso? 38:22 EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Bien, había estado una misa en español me dijeron en la capilla, ¿no? EUGENIA: ¿Cómo? JOSÉ: ¿Habían dos misas en español en la capilla? EUGENIA: Sí, después… según fuera porque los puertorriqueños, los latinos, todo, americanos también, todos. Cubanos, todos, iban solo los católicos. Iban los católicos. (pausa) Pues, dar misa español solo lo que quería. Entonces los iban. Se llenaba la iglesia. 38:58 JOSÉ: Okay entonces, ¿también había una para muerte y pasión de Jesucristo? ¿Qué hacia? �EUGENIA: También se hacía eso. JOSÉ: ¿Qué hacía? 39:11 EUGENIA: Pues, todos predicaban. JOSÉ: ¿Predicaban? Pero también ¿había un teatro o algo así que había? ¿Una obra, se dice? 39:25 EUGENIA: Había una obra pero había tantos los años que no me recuerda ni como era. JOSÉ: ¿La misma gente no participaba en la obra? EUGENIA: Escogían persona que va a poner… si daba la vuelta pasión tiene que escoger unas mujeres que lloraban la muerte de Cristo. Entonces cosa. Y una hacía una cosa y una hacía otra. 39:53 JOSÉ: ¿Y algún eran soldados? EUGENIA: Todo, habían que ______ según una, según plaza la muerte de pasión de Jesucristo. _______ así. JOSÉ: ¿Y cómo se veía eso? ¿Bien organizado o cómo? 40:06 EUGENIA: Primero había bien organizado y __________ tienen que hacerlo. JOSÉ: ¿Tiene que hacer actuar? EUGENIA: Actuar, uh huh. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Entonces invitan de igual?… ¿Se parece como una película? EUGENIA: Como más o menos. Estaba tal bien, bien hecho. 40:24 JOSÉ: ¿Y venía mucha gente? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿A verlo? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Era en el gimnasio? (gran pausa) Yo me recuerdo que estaba eso. EUGENIA: Mhm JOSÉ: Entonces ¿__________________ mataron a Jesucristo? EUGENIA: Todo soltaban, soltaban. JOSÉ: ¿A saltaban a Jesucristo? EUGENIA: Así a soltaban y se veía como soltando pero no le daban. 40:47 JOSÉ: ¿Cómo tu sentía? EUGENIA: ¿Huh? JOSÉ: ¿Cuando veía eso, todos saltando a Jesucristo? �EUGENIA: Que una, que haya una persona que… (Pausa) ¿Cómo se dice? que recuerda todo lo que Cristo sufrió por nosotros _____ duele. Le duele la verdad. 41:10 JOSÉ: ¿Lo sentiste? EUGENIA: No siente eso y por eso no … uno sienta JOSÉ: Con más fe. 41:21 EUGENIA: ¿Huh? JOSÉ: ¿Con más fe? EUGENIA: Porque uno tenga más fe. JOSÉ: Porque hay gente que iba a la iglesia pero en este tiempo no solo iba a la iglesia. Tenía esa obra… También la gente vuelta en las bailes. EUGENIA: En todo. 41:40 JOSÉ: ¿Había ________ o para levantar la gente mano? EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Soltaba como la comunidad completa la vuelta? EUGENIA: Como una comunidad, una comunidad… JOSÉ: ¿Iban puerta por puerta? ____________ EUGENIA: Sí, avisaban y… y… todos íbanos se llevaban papelitos y se ponían… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: O, a suelta. Le daba en la casa. 42:02 EUGENIA: Claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Todo el mundo puede ir a la misa, iba a hacer eso? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Invitan más gente para la iglesia? EUGENIA: Pues claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿So era como hacen lo, lo… a bendita iba por casa a casa y eso? EUGENIA: Sí, porque ir casa por casa rizando porque eso era nuevo. Eso no era… que hacía antes. Entonces cuando uno iba… JOSÉ: ¿Para llenar la iglesia? 42:31 EUGENIA: Para llenar la iglesia. JOSÉ: ¿Llenar el hall para que...? (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Pues llenaba a la iglesia, se llenaba... �JOSÉ: ¿Entonces había muchos puertorriqueños en este tiempo? 42:41 EUGENIA: Sí, no allí iban también mexicanos y cubanos. Todos los latinos, los latinos. JOSÉ: Okay. (pausa) ¿Y se llenaba la iglesia de San Miguel? EUGENIA: Uh huh. Y a los americanos, los americanos que estaban asociados a los puertorriqueños, tú sabes que conocían y _______ como los puertorriqueños. Pues también iban. 43:04 JOSÉ: ¿Con los puertorriqueños? EUGENIA: Mhm, claro. JOSÉ: So ¿entonces así fue que se logró la misa? 43:10 EUGENIA: Así fue. JOSÉ: (Se aclaró su voz) Entonces eso fue como... ¿No te recuerdas los años? ¿58, 59? EUGENIA: mm JOSÉ: ¿61, por ahí? (pausa) EUGENIA: No sé. JOSÉ: ¿55? (pausa) Bueno, okay, eso tiene que ser como 58 por eso 59. 43:33 EUGENIA: Algo así. JOSÉ: ¿Algo así? ¿57 por ahí? (pausa) Okay yo me recuerdo fue después que... yo sé que fue después 56 porque Papi tiene un carro en este tiempo. 43:44 Creo que un 55 Chevy (risa) que se lo quitaron. ¿Te recuerdas eso? EUGENIA: mm JOSÉ: Okay yo estaba buscando información sobre eso y me dijeron que no habían… ah… cuando yo me _____ a San Miguel me dijeron que no sabían nada de los puertorriqueños en este tiempo. EUGENIA: (risita) JOSÉ: Que no era, que no había… EUGENIA: Que, que no guardaron nada. JOSÉ: ¿Qué no guardaron nada de los puertorriqueños en este tiempo? EUGENIA: Pues ese que sí. 44:20 JOSÉ: Entonces te… pero la manera en que me dijeron que no sabían de eso y que no… que yo estaba loco. No me dijeron eso pero ______ como yo estaba loco pensando que habían puertorriqueños ________ porque ahora la iglesia de St. Michael’s de Oldtown. Cómo que de Oldtown, tú sabes. Que es el área que hacía Oldtown… ¿Qué dicen los americanos que estén allí no recuerdan los puertorriqueños y dicen que no habían puertorriqueños allí… en este área? ¿Qué tú piensas de eso? �EUGENIA: (pausa) Bueno, que no miraron, que no negaron. (pausa) Pero nosotros le levantamos y le ayudamos. Así que (pausa) pero… (pausa) No sé que, que… (pausa) JOSÉ: Pero ellos dicen que no eran puertorriqueños y ¿tú crees que habían puertorriqueños en este tiempo o no? ¿O había ba… yo… (hablan a la misma vez) ¿Eran bastante? (pausa) No quiero poner palabras en la boca. ¿En este tiempo habían muchos puertorriqueños o no? 45:49 EUGENIA: Habían bastante puertorriqueños, habían no bastante. Iban a la iglesia bastante también. Lo que pasa que nunca quisieron reconocen con nosotros al hall o al trabajo que hacían. Es la única forma que quieren _______. Pero la iglesia San Miguel creció para arriba con los puertorriqueños. 46:22 (pausa) Bastante dinero que recibieron de los puertorriqueños. Así que… JOSÉ: ¿Y fue por el barrio año, fue por un año, nada más? 46:37 EUGENIA: No, seguro, eso fue por mucho. JOSÉ: ¿Por muchos años? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: Eso fue le dijo una persona mayor no digo todo el mundo. Eso fue me dijo una persona una. 46:51 Allí fue un monaguillo, yo fui monaguillo también. ¿Tú recuerdas eso? ¿Cuándo fui monaguillo allí? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Cuando empezando la misa… EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Yo estaba en la, la… ya era monaguillo en Santa Teresa entonces como estaba de eso ______ mesa _______ un monaguillo. Entonces yo fui para allá. So yo me recuerdo estaba lleno 250 personas allí. 47:20 EUGENIA: Más o menos. JOSÉ: ¿Más o menos? ¿Estaba bastante en el hall? ¿Eso ponía en el hall? Puedes son, no sé. Después siguieron viendo mass, puertorriqueño monaguillo de otros partes también. 47:32 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Este… Pero este no me recuerdo veía mucha gente que paga esa señora se mesa a mí. A mí no lo veo. (risa) A mí huele Pero yo no me ____ cosa… Este… Okay, so quiero hablar ahora… Tú estabas teniendo el clase de catecismo, en la casa… en la sala que lo tenía la silla, ¿verdad? 48:04 ¿Te recuerdas eso? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: Y… y ¿Cómo fue? ¿Cómo tú dabas catecismo? EUGENIA: Bueno, que yo lo sabía y leía en la Biblia y enseñaba que yo sabía. JOSÉ: ¿Leía mucho? ¿Por qué tú _________, no? 48:25 �EUGENIA: Yo leía y yo enseñó a mi hermano. JOSÉ: ¿Altolibria? ¿A leer? 48:32 EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: Entonces, en la casa. ¿Enseñó en la casa de él? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Entonces tú leíste, leíste la, la, la Biblia a los muchachos? EUGENIA: La memoria también tú sabes… como eso yo lo sé que estaba niña. JOSÉ: Uh huh. EUGENIA: Pues yo… JOSÉ: ¿Tú enseñabas a ella? EUGENIA: Enseñaba… 48:51 JOSÉ: __________ ¿Represente de memoria? EUGENIA: Yo le decía y yo lo repetía. JOSÉ: Y si no le repiten, ¿qué pasaba? EUGENIA: Nada a ellos. JOSÉ: ¿A ello? EUGENIA: (risa) JOSÉ: Yo digo que decía. 49:03 EUGENIA: Yo decía que ______ Ellos contestaban muy bien. Muy bien. JOSÉ: Entonces ¿Cuántos muchachos venían, como 15, 20, o como cuanto viene andazo? 49:11 EUGENIA: Más o menos como 15. JOSÉ: ¿Como 15? ______________ EUGENIA: Uh huh. 49:17 JOSÉ: Entonces, tú, ¿tú les enseñaba una cosa y ellos tienen que repetir, “No, señora” o “Sí, señora”? EUGENIA: Sí, uh huh, más o menos. JOSÉ: ¿Pero todo les enseñó de eso? 49:27 EUGENIA: Pues seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Diciendo “No, señora, sí, señora”? EUGENIA: Uh huh. �JOSÉ: Entonces ______ contestar EUGENIA: Pues claro, entonces yo enseñaba el padre nuestro y que repitieron según yo iba diciéndolo que yo dijeron detrás de lo que decía. 49:42 JOSÉ: Okay. A memoria. EUGENIA: Enseñaba. JOSÉ: Solo les enseñaba a memoria. EUGENIA: Uh huh. 49:47 JOSÉ: Y entonces cuando era cabecido, ¿que lo decía? EUGENIA: __________ estaba poniendo en rodillas (ambos ríen) JOSÉ: ________ Era una maestra (ríen) Allá enseña abuso, enseña abuso. EUGENIA: Enseña abuso. 50:04 JOSÉ: A medio ___________Lo rodellaba allí. __ EUGENIA: Uh, yo rodilla JOSÉ: ¿Cabecido duro? EUGENIA: Pero casi nunca yo lo puse. JOSÉ: Okay, sí. EUGENIA: Siempre yo… lo consideraba. JOSÉ: Pero yo lo hacía porque EUGENIA: A yo respetaban. JOSÉ: Respetaba. A los latinos respetan. ¿La mayoría latino? EUGENIA: Pues todo. JOSÉ: Todo… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: No sabían inglés. JOSÉ: ¿Todos no saben inglés? So tenían que decir en español… EUGENIA: Y aprendérselo en inglés. JOSÉ: ¿Y repetirlo? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Repetirlo? EUGENIA: Repetirlo. �JOSÉ: ¿Y dicen, “Sí, señora, no señora”? EUGENIA: Uh huh. (José ríe y Eugenia empieza a reír también) JOSÉ: Okay, entonces, ¿qué pasó cuando se graduaban como ya tú decías? Entonces, ¿tú tienes un librito conseguía? EUGENIA: Pues yo le conseguí, le conseguí a el… JOSÉ: ¿El librito? EUGENIA: El librito. JOSÉ: ¿Y a donde lo conseguiste? EUGENIA: Un padre me lo daba. JOSÉ: ¿Cuál padre? EUGENIA: Padre Rodan y Padre… 51:13 JOSÉ: ¿Padre Rodan allí del catedral? ¿Iba allí también? EUGENIA: Mhm JOSÉ: O, ¿padre de la catedral? EUGENIA: De la catedral. JOSÉ: ¿Pero ese fue en San Miguel e iba también o ya estaba sin volvió allí? 51:26 EUGENIA: Porque San Miguel… que yo no me acuerdo. Que yo no me recuerdo. JOSÉ: Okay. Porque allí estaba Padre Catherine. EUGENIA: ¿Catarín? JOSÉ: Catarín. EUGENIA: Fue Catalino. JOSÉ: Catalino… Padre Catherine. Padre Catherine. Pero entonces no trabajo está allí. Era de la __________ 51:44 EUGENIA: En, en, en el otro lado. JOSÉ: Era la catedral de allá. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Okay todo conocía a él de la catedral. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Entonces okay _________ de lo grande. 51:53 EUGENIA: Mhm �JOSÉ: De ya de la Wabush. ¿Tú ibas a Wabush también? EUGENIA: Pues ya era no iba. 52:01 JOSÉ: ¿A la Wabush también ibas? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: A la, no, Wabush por al lado de la catedral. ¿Tú ibas ya? EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿A que ibas ya? EUGENIA: Pues, para la iglesia. JOSÉ: O, ¿a un tiempo fue de la catedral? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Y después de esto… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿Pero en este tiempo estaba en la San Miguel? ¿Con Padre Catherine? 52:29 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Y cuando se graduaba, ¿entonces eso que _______, entonces eso? EUGENIA: Pues estaba Padre Rodan. 52:38 JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Y… Catherine. JOSÉ: ¿Catherine? ¿Trabajan juntos? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. Que no me recuerdo pero yo sé que trabajaron que yo estaba. JOSÉ: Uh huh. EUGENIA: Yo no recuerdo. Son tantos años que ya… JOSÉ: Yo sé. Entonces te… (pausa) Solta… tiene el catecismo. Y, y, y está graduando un muchacho. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Quién vino a ver uh… ¿Cómo se graduaban? Tenía que venir el padre, ¿no? 53:17 EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Cuál padre vino? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo tampoco. JOSÉ: ¿Catherine? ¿Padre Catherine? Yo me recuerdo. �EUGENIA: Padre Catherine, Padre Rodan. JOSÉ: Porque Rodan era hispano. 53:32 EUGENIA: Pues hispano, era hispano que él… JOSÉ: ¿El que venía? ¿Pero también vino el Padre Catherine que hablaba español? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿So entonces él le preguntaba a ellos la pregunta de…? 53:45 EUGENIA: Uh huh, a ver si sabían. JOSÉ: ¿Qué le pregunta? EUGENIA: Pues los mandamientos. JOSÉ: ¿Les preguntaba los mandamientos? EUGENIA: JOSÉ: ¿Y los muchachos los contestaban? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: ¿Dicen, “Sí, señor”? (ríen) ¿Ya todo les entrenías? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Dicen, “Sí, señor” y dicen los mandamientos? EUGENIA: Uh huh. 54:04 JOSÉ: ¿Y eso? Entonces… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Tienen que decir y cerrarlos, los, los sacramentos eran los mandamientos de la ley de Dios y hicieron los mandamientos de la iglesia. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Pues dan los sacramentos, dan los mandamientos de la ley de Dios y también están los mandamientos de la iglesia. Que todos son de la iglesia pero se dividen en esa forma. 54:31 JOSÉ: Mm. ¿Y esto estaba en el librito que tú tenías? EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿Qué te dio el padre? EUGENIA: Uh huh. La Biblia también. JOSÉ: ¿_______ la Biblia también? EUGENIA: Mhm JOSÉ: Y eso… (interrumpido) �EUGENIA: A lo que yo sabía que yo no tenía que leerlo porque ya lo supieron. 54:52 JOSÉ: Y entonces se graduaba allí ___________ tan preparado EUGENIA: Están preparado por el __________. JOSÉ: ¿Recibieron la primera comunión? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿So todos estos muchachos no iban a la iglesia católica, entonces? EUGENIA: No… (interrumpida) 55:08 JOSÉ: ¿En la escuela pública? EUGENIA: Estaba una escuela pública. Algunos iban después de la iglesia católica. JOSÉ: ¿Fueron al público en este tiempo o no? 55:16 EUGENIA: En este tiempo… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: Porque no tienen dinero para ir la iglesia católica. EUGENIA: Así era. JOSÉ: ¿Así era? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: So entonces… pero ya se hace tan graduando para recibir la primera comunión. Entonces, ¿fueron a donde daban la primera comunión, en San Miguel? EUGENIA: En el hall. JOSÉ: ¿O en el hall? ¿No en la capilla? EUGENIA: No. Primero empezó cuando eran poquitos en el hall. Después siguieron creciendo entonces le dieron en la misa… (interrumpido) JOSÉ: ¿Pero entonces tú seguiste dando clase de catecismo? EUGENIA: Yo seguí dando clases de catecismo. JOSÉ: Entonces pues ¿se graduaron algunos en la capilla? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Entonces ¿cómo iba victi hoy? 55:59 EUGENIA: No me recuerdo… Bueno, la nena estaba vestida en blanco. JOSÉ: ¿De blanco? EUGENIA: Y los muchachos pantalones y camisa blanco y pantalones negros. JOSÉ: ¿Pantalones negros? ¿Y un corban? �EUGENIA: No, corban, no. JOSÉ: ¿Pero tienen que tener un corbata? 56:17 EUGENIA: Unasito. JOSÉ: Unasito, pantalones negros… EUGENIA: y la camisa JOSÉ: Y la camisa. Pero algunos tenían un gabán también, ¿no? EUGENIA: Bueno, que por el frío, también, si estaba haciendo el frío. JOSÉ: Pero ¿tuviera la camisa estaba bien? EUGENIA: Uh huh 56:35 JOSÉ: ¿Que eran pobre _________ de eso? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Pero algunos de ellos eran de familia chalatani? 56:43 EUGENIA: Cuando no (ambos ríen) JOSÉ: Porque eran de barrio, ¿no? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: No estamos hablando de niños de clase alta. Estoy hablando de ______________ 56:58 EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: So, pero entonces estabas enseñando disciplina también, ¿no? EUGENIA: Pues claro que sí. JOSÉ: _________ EUGENIA: No no no no no. ________________ haciéndome la pregunta es cierto. JOSÉ: hmm. EUGENIA: Todo es cierto. JOSÉ: ¿Qué es cierto? EUGENIA: De que, de que (pausa) Ellos… ya se me olvidó de lo que estábamos hablando. JOSÉ: Yo dijera que era chalatan a los padres. ¿Tú sabes que quiero decir de eso? EUGENIA: No, no. JOSÉ: Que dice algunos de los padres estaban en problema o algo tomaba o… EUGENIA: Tomar, casi todos tomaban. 57:40 (ríen) �JOSÉ: ¿Eso todos eran casi tomaban? EUGENIA: _________ de los sacerdotes no, papá de los muchachos. JOSÉ: Sí. 57:47 EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Todos recochinearon el __________ del barrio? EUGENIA: Pues seguro. Yo iba casa por casa donde queda había a lo último sacerdote como sabía que yo era daba el catecismo ________ enviaba para la casa 58:02 JOSÉ: ¿Enviaba ya? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Pero tú empezabas viendo casa por casa? EUGENIA: Seguro. Viendo casa por casa por la necesidad que había de que nos enseñaba la religión de los muchachos puertorriqueños. Y entonces había una de falta de conocimiento de Dios. Entonces yo empecé en eso. JOSÉ: Entonces tú hiciste el paquete te trabajo 58:29 EUGENIA: No no no, yo lo hice por amor a Dios. JOSÉ: Oh, oh. EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Por amor _____? (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Por la necesidad que esos muchachos estaban conocer madio. 58:40 JOSÉ: ¿Porque tú pensabas que tenían que conocer a Dios? EUGENIA: Porque no les enseñaban y se iban a salvan los bandoleros por la calle. JOSÉ: Oh, entonces ibas _____________ de los __________ 58:43 EUGENIA: Yo quería sacarlos de los sitios donde no aprendían cosas de Dios. Creo que aprenden pelean. (ríen) JOSÉ: ¿Y donde era este sitio? ¿En la calle donde se quita? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Estaban peleando siempre? ¿En este tiempo eran pandía? EUGENIA: ¡Uh! JOSÉ: ¿Qué hay era?59:18 EUGENIA: Siempre habían pandías. Que yo sé que hubieron pandías. �JOSÉ: ¿_________ Callejera? ¿Callejera? EUGENIA: Callejera. JOSÉ: Pero al principio de tú llega allí a esta área este pandía americana, ¿no? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Entonces (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Si odiaban a los puertorriqueños. JOSÉ: ¿La pandía americana? ¿Odiaba a los puertorriqueños? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Cae encima de los puertorriqueños? EUGENIA: Peleaban todos. JOSÉ: ¿Se peleaban? Pero yo sé en la quinda, había una quinda americana ¿no? ¿La pandía americana? enfrente de la tienda, EUGENIA: No me recuerdo, no me recuerdo. JOSÉ: No recuerdas. EUGENIA: Son muchos años. JOSÉ: ¿Pero había una pandía americana? EUGENIA: Sí. No querían los sábados los puertorriqueños. JOSÉ: ¿Los odiaban? EUGENIA: No, odiaban a todos 1:00:12 JOSÉ: Los odiaban. No era, no era, no era que era de pandía u otro pandía (hablan a la misma vez) EUGENIA: No no no no. JOSÉ: Odiaban a los puertorriqueños. EUGENIA: Le preciaban. JOSÉ: ¿A los puertorriqueños? EUGENIA: Claro. 1:00:22 JOSÉ: ¿Importaban joven o viejo? EUGENIA: A todos, a todos les preciaban. JOSÉ: ¿A todos los puertorriqueños preciaban? 1:00:29 EUGENIA: Era como si tuviera quitándoles algo de ellos. Más o menos. �JOSÉ: ¿Cómo quitándoles algo de ellos? (hablan a la misma vez) EUGENIA: Lo más es como tú tienes tu casa, tu grupo y entonces yo vengo y me hago amistad como con este grupo. Y entonces tú dices, “¿a tú estás quitando esto? Esto es mío.” Más o menos. 1:01:10 JOSÉ: So yo pensaba _____ quitando la casa por ellos o… EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿o el grupito? ¿El grupo de ellos? ¿A ellos controlaban a eso primero? 1:01:20 EUGENIA: Ellos controlaban. JOSÉ: Entonces (interrumpido) EUGENIA: _______Controlaban. Ese es la palabra JOSÉ: Controlaban. ¿Esa es la palabra correcta? Ellos controlaban. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Entonces, este… ¿nosotros estabamos entrando allí? EUGENIA: Entonces nosotros éramos como… la palabra que nosotros los puertorriqueños siempre usamos “metiches.” JOSÉ: ¿Metiches? EUGENIA: (risa) __________ no importa (ríe mucho) JOSÉ: Entonces eran metiches. ¿Metiches? EUGENIA: Metiches. JOSÉ: Cuando entraban a esa área, que se llama a Lincoln Park, ahora. EUGENIA: Uh huh JOSÉ: ¿eran los metiches? EUGENIA: Uh huh. (ambos ríen) JOSÉ: Entonces EUGENIA: Más o menos. JOSÉ: Para ellos. 1:02:07 EUGENIA: Para ellos. JOSÉ Y EUGENIA: Los metiches. JOSÉ: ¿Por eso les caen encima de todo? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: Yo me recuerdo que caen encima de echarvia. 1:02:17 �EUGENIA: _____________________ JOSÉ: ¿También? ¿Iberia patral? EUGENIA: Claro, yo no sabía andar. JOSÉ: ______ en otro grupo. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: So entonces echanvia empezaba a pelear con otro grupo EUGENIA: Entonces (interrumpida) JOSÉ: Porque ¿había grupo italiano y eso? EUGENIA: Algo Jiménez, Rodríguez y… JOSÉ: ¿Y todo el mundo? Y hacía _________ americano. 1:02:44 EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿Hiciera la cosa? EUGENIA: Hiciera la cosa. JOSÉ: Y entonces te… siempre hacía la pandía puertorriqueña, porque antes era una pandía puertorriqueña, ¿no? EUGENIA: Era puertorriqueña esta pandía. JOSÉ: Llegaron los puertorriqueños… EUGENIA: Y se quedaron. (risa) JOSÉ: ¿Echaría y organizara en seguida? ¿A pelear con los americanos? EUGENIA: A pelear. JOSÉ: ¿Hacer la cosa? EUGENIA: Pues pasa ciudadanos americanos. No podían depreciar a nosotros. Nosotros somos ciudadanos y no… hablaba sino somos ciudadanos. JOSÉ: (amos ríen) Para que lo sepan. Así así era. 1:03:26 EUGENIA: Para que lo sepan. (ríe) JOSÉ: Entonces este… somos ciudadanos, y entonces aquí ¿_________ igual? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Pensaba, o como tú pensabas? EUGENIA: Entonces yo decía pasiva solo yo dio …________. como somos ciudadanos porque no ______________. �JOSÉ: ¿Y lo tiraban? EUGENIA: Sí. Seguro. No depreciaban. JOSÉ: Como, pero ¿de qué manera? ¿Cómo … EUGENIA: Pues era de no depreciaba en forma que no llegaban a nosotros y se iban por este calle, la tercera. Cruzaban a otro lado. JOSÉ: ¿Eso te pasa a ti? 1:04:10 EUGENIA: Yo sé a veces. JOSÉ: ¿A ti? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Como ellos andaban en la calle te veían y cruzaban la calle? EUGENIA: Cruzaban por otro lado. Cambió la cara, no miraban. JOSÉ: ¿Y no te miraban? Tú lo _____________ 1:04:24 EUGENIA: No, seguro. JOSÉ: Te meten la palabra en la boca. EUGENIA: Siempre yo le decía a “Good morning” o “Goodbye” o algo. Las palabritas que sabía yo decía. JOSÉ: ¿Tú ____ en seguida? EUGENIA: Seguro. 1:04:41 JOSÉ: ¿Y entonces que decían allí? ¿Dicen nada? EUGENIA: Nada. Algunos decían, “Thank you”o algo. JOSÉ: Algunos. ¿Pero otros no? EUGENIA: Otros no. Otros cambiaban. JOSÉ: ¿So veía en la cara que no querían? EUGENIA: mhm. (pausa) Al principio, cuando los puertorriqueños llegaron a Estados Unidos, no valían nada. JOSÉ: ¿Tú crees? EUGENIA: Claro. 1:05:10 JOSÉ: ¿Por qué tú decías eso? Pues eran ciudadanos. EUGENIA: Eran ciudadanos pero ellos no pero los americanos no querían. Esto reconocerlo. Todavía esto no reconocerlos… tantos puertorriqueños que hay. Así. Somos extraños. JOSÉ: ¿Y en este tiempo __________? 1:05:33 �EUGENIA: Sí. Ahora que tú sabes que de donde quiera y que uno lo ayudada a ellos a subir. O que cuantos puertorriqueños no han trabajado para los americanos. (pausa) Y les pagan renta a los americanos. Así que yo creo que si no reconocen a los puertorriqueños, como que somos ciudadanos _________.Entonces van a esperar a cuando. JOSÉ: So entonces allí trabajaste con la San Miguel hiciste otro catecismo, ¿verdad? ¿O tres o cuatro u otro, algo así? EUGENIA: Sí. 1:06:24 Yo… catecismo a grupo de muchachos… JOSÉ: ¿Grupo de muchachos? ¿Otro grupo de muchachos allí en la Dayton? EUGENIA: Seguro. Lo que… JOSÉ: ¿Se graduaban? EUGENIA: Se graduaban. Pues seguían, ______ a la iglesia y… JOSÉ: ¿Quedaban a la iglesia? EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿Eso fue parte de las Damas de María? EUGENIA: Pues claro. Era catecismo, una enseñanza religiosa. 1:06:50 JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Y entonces… ¿después eso lo cambiamos por la Santa Teresa? Porque ya ese estaba primer grado en Santa Teresa. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Jenny estaba en Santa Teresa y yo estuve en el seis grado, grado seis… en Santa Teresa. Claro, seis, siete, ocho. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Cómo nosotros fuimos a Santa Teresa? Como, lo _____ decir eso. 1:07:20 EUGENIA: No me recuerdo ya. JOSÉ: ¿Pero tú conocías a padre en Santa Teresa? EUGENIA: Pues claro porque uno va a conociendo, conociendo según ________ de la JOSÉ: Porque nosotros no tenían dinero. ¿Cómo entramos a esta iglesia? EUGENIA: Iban a la misa. JOSÉ: ¿Era una misa? EUGENIA: Pues claro. �JOSÉ: ¿De Santa Teresa? EUGENIA: Y la misa todo el sacerdote no pueden sacar a nadie de la iglesia. JOSÉ: ¿Pero reciben a la misa…? ¿Pero tú trabajaste también, en la Santa Teresa? EUGENIA: Pues claro. Yo iba a la misa que daba en inglés que en español. JOSÉ: ¿Se empieza darles a la misa en inglés? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Entonces como… ¿habían muchos puertorriqueños viendo a la misa en inglés? EUGENIA: Había no bastante. JOSÉ: ¿En la misa de inglés? EUGENIA: mhm. Chur Rodríguez y eso. JOSÉ: ¿En Santa Teresa? Estoy hablando de Santa Teresa ahora, no de San Miguel. De Santa Teresa en el Quemal y la armitage. __________ rompo. ________ la Santa Teresa y entonces yo me metí allí se metió ____ Jenny y _______ y Mina también, yo creo. EUGENIA: mhm 1:08:40 JOSÉ: Entonces, ¿en la Santa Teresa no hay misa hispana allí? ¿So como empezó la cosa eso? ¿De la misa allí? EUGENIA: ¿Cómo empecé a la misa? JOSÉ: Sí, ¿Cómo empieza la misa hispana allí en Santa Teresa? ¿Cómo empezó? 1:09:00 EUGENIA: Yo sé que estaba uno _____ Fransisco Rodríguez o algo que también Echavía. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Titi? EUGENIA: Titi. Pues, y Chu. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Todos obraron y siguiendo introduciendo. Seguimos entrando unos a nosotros nos avisábamos ataque al sacerdote vio que queda mucho bastante en _______ dio la misa hispana. JOSÉ: Pero entonces tuvieron que buscar una petición me dijeron. EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Para que llenar a papel para que dar una misa en español. 1:09:42 EUGENIA: Eso ___ decir. De papel, de cosa no te _____ decir. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Yo sé que dijeron una vez en español. �JOSÉ: Okay. Entonces pero… no iba gente… yo me recuerdo que tú fuiste con Chu una vez. En vez de Chu… a una casa para predicar y diera el rosario. ¿Y él tenía que ver con la misa también? 1:10:08 EUGENIA: Era que íbamos porque si pedían que se llevara a un rosario o algo y a predican. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Pues siempre predicaban algo. Siempre Chu predicaba. JOSÉ: Y tú le invitaba a él porque era todo conocía de San Miguel. EUGENIA: No, invitaba a mí. JOSÉ: ¿invitaba a ti? EUGENIA: Pues claro. Chu Rodríguez porque estábamos todos juntos. 1:10:35 JOSÉ: ¿Todos estaban juntos, los Caballeros y las Damas? EUGENIA: Pues, seguro, las Damas de María y los Caballeros de San Juan. JOSÉ: Pero te invitaba a ti porque fuera para dar palabra de rosario. EUGENIA: Para ayudar. JOSÉ: ¿Pero tú rezaba el rosario? EUGENIA: Pues claro. 1:10:47 JOSÉ: ¿Pero ti como cien como rezar el rosario? EUGENIA: Pues yo rezaba el rosario. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Y el rosario pues siempre algunos dicen una palabrita, otra cosa. 1:10:58 JOSÉ: Entonces… y ¿Chu predicaba? EUGENIA: Chu predicaba. JOSÉ: ¿Pues tú rezabas el rosario y Chu predicaba? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Había otra gente allí? EUGENIA: Claro. Había los Calistos. JOSÉ: ¿Los Calistos también allí eso? ¿En Santa Teresa también? Esto consideraban número nueve. Oh, era porque Monín allí era y estaba Glota, yo creo. EUGENIA: Compaña Montego JOSÉ: ¿Montego allí? ¿Estaba Glota también? �EUGENIA: Lo último, Carmela la última ___ llega de nosotros JOSÉ: ¿Carmela también vino jueves después? ¿Qué era lo último? Porque yo era todavía en la San Miguel. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Yo estaba allá. Entonces ¿ya estaba San Miguel y estaba Santa Terea también subiendo? EUGENIA: Los hispanos iban a donde quieren para participa a _____________. JOSÉ: Ya de eso. Yo me recuerdo que allí en el área de Lincoln Park, iba puerta por puerta cada la gente, ¿no? EUGENIA: Pues claro, avisaban que se daba una misa o algo. 1:12:10 JOSÉ: ¿Iban por San Miguel? EUGENIA: Claro que sí. Se avisaban. Se llevaron un papel o algo. JOSÉ: Entonces (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Invitaban. JOSÉ: Invitaban. Entonces allí también empezaron a daba la misa en el hall, ¿no? ¿En Santa Teresa? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿No fue en la capilla? Fue en el hall. 1:12:29 EUGENIA: No, primero era en el hall y cuando creció el grupo entonces lo daban en la iglesia. JOSÉ: Eso era le dio a los Caballeros. ¿Así metían a ellos? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Me daban el hall porque en la, en la catedral también lo daban un un primont. (ríe) En la catedral era en un _______, en la San Miguel lo daba en el hall de Dao. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Que es el cuatro cuarenta tres de la Eugeni. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Y en la Santa Teresa era la Quemar, en la hall de la Quemar. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Y entonces y después fue que te dejaron misa en español en la iglesia. EUGENIA: Claro. 1:13:09 JOSÉ: Okay. Entonces este… Pero hay… ¿sería también que era alguna de la gente que no quería entrar los puertorriqueños todavía? �EUGENIA: Como adentro (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿Cómo algunos de los americanos no querían que entrada? EUGENIA: Pues sí, algunos americanos (interrumpida) JOSÉ: No quiero poner las palabras en la boca. EUGENIA: No no no los americanos… eran desconocidos. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Los puertorriqueños eran desconocidos entonces como no los conocían, pues no van a abrirte la iglesia para que metiera. 1:13:42 JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Entonces había que lleva un grupo grande porque como van a adaptar luya todos persona. Pero cuando el sacerdote vio queda un grupo grande que había una necesidad de dando la misa, pues mira. Como la misa en Latín. Pues uno le entiende. La predicación como era en inglés sabe porque casi él que no sabía inglés pues no le entendía. Pero ya más o menos uno la misa los sábados. 1:14:22 JOSÉ: Porque era Latín y eso tiene en… EUGENIA: Claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿común todo el mundo? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Y entonces también los americanos también se sentían como parte. EUGENIA: Pues claro que sí (hablan a la misma vez) había un grupo de los americanos… JOSÉ: Después porque es un, es un… que hubiera estaba creciendo… EUGENIA: Seguro, seguro compartían como todo. 1:14:39 JOSÉ: Compartían y eso. A último se unió al principio. EUGENIA: Claro que sí. Al principio no. JOSÉ: Al principio porque eran como desconocidos. EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Pero entonces vieron que los… 1:14:50 EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Tú crees que los sacerdotes te ayudaron en eso para aplicar a los americanos? EUGENIA: Seguro. Seguro que sí. 1:14:58 JOSÉ: Que había… que dejara la… �EUGENIA: Padre Rodán, y Padre… JOSÉ: ¿Hablaban y eso? EUGENIA: Pues claro. Pues yo (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿Ellos saben como que había un problema allí? EUGENIA: Que había que ayudaño. JOSÉ: Okay, ¿le ______aron que ayudaron a los latinos o los hispanos? EUGENIA: Claro que sí. 1:15:14 JOSÉ: Pues pero había como ¿ medio conflicto que calleito? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Un conflicto, un conflicto callado? EUGENIA: Callado. JOSÉ: No quiero poner palabras en la boca. EUGENIA: No no, hay es exactamente eso que tú estás diciendo así era. JOSÉ: ¿Qué era? EUGENIA: Que era conflicto o sea algo, como era algo desconocido pues no querían. Pero cuando vieron que el importante uno que nosotros daban dinero y __________ dinero también. JOSÉ: Pero no era por el dinero, era por tú. EUGENIA: Era… JOSÉ: yo por el dinero EUGENIA: No no no. Claro, por el dinero también pero de todas las maneras ellos vieron una necesidad que queda muchos puertorriqueños, muchos latinos. Y entonces necesitaban que nos dieron la misa. 1:16:14 JOSÉ: Y entonces ¿también en la área de Lincoln Park se está convirtiendo en muchos puertorriqueños ahora? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Y muchos latinos? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Hay más gente viviendo allí en este área? EUGENIA: Ahora sí, ahora está lleno. JOSÉ: ¿Está lleno de gente? �EUGENIA: Claro. Pero nosotros cuando yo fui a pesar no había nada puertorriqueño. JOSÉ: ¿No había? Pero entonces se llenó de hispanos y ¿todavía estaban no lo que dando misa en el hall? EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿Ya cuando se llenó de hispanos y tuviera que hacerlo? 1:16:46 ¿Cuándo se llenó Lincoln Park, el área de hispanos, entonces por que dieron la misa en español? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Porque había mucho, muchos latinos, ¿verdad? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: So entonces, okay. Entonces se tiraban un baile también, ¿no? ¿En la Santa Teresa? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Tenía una oficina, Uds.? EUGENIA: ¿Una qué? JOSÉ: O sea, ahora aparte de la iglesia también ¿había los caballeros de San Juan tenían un apartamento? ¿Un club? ¿Tenían un club _____ todo eso? EUGENIA: Para todo eso. JOSÉ: ¿Aparte? 1:17:19 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: A mí máquina, yo me recuerdo. ______ también allí a nosotros ¿________ las Damas o los Caballeros de San Juan? EUGENIA: Ah, no reunían todos. JOSÉ: ¿El hall era solamente para el baile grande y para la misa? Pero ¿entonces los Caballeros de San Juan y las Damas de María tenían su propio hall en ____ de Quemal? ¿Y la armitage en la norte u oeste de la de la Quemal y armitage Quemal? EUGENIA: Así era. 1:17:59 JOSÉ: Y entonces allí se hacían actividades porque yo me recuerdo Monín viendo Monín hace eso. ¿Qué actividades hacían hay? EUGENIA: Habían bailes. JOSÉ: ¿Bailes? Pero entonces empezaron trabajado en el hall también. ¿Uds. verdad? ¿Sacálo de pandilla? EUGENIA: Ha sacado la pandilla traerlo para la iglesia. 1:18:23 �JOSÉ: Pues yo recuerdo que había parijuana, pari (ríe) ¿Había un pandilla pari? ¿________ que no había problema? ¿Pero todo el mundo iba a _____? (ríe) Yo me recuerdo iban los Young Lords y los, ¿los blackie? ¿Habían los Flaming Arrow? ____________________ Todo el mundo allí. Los rebels, los Trojans. ____________ ¿De los Latin Kings? EUGENIA: Iban todo. 1:19:05 JOSÉ: ¿Iban todo así? Eso se llenaba todo. Y los Paragons. ¿Había un grupo se llamado los Paragons también? ¿Los Flaming Arrows? ¿Pure esis y Queens? ¿Iban todos esos? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Este. (pausa) Y que y ¿Uds. llevaban bien? Era… porque era ____molestaba_ de ello. Y era pandilla. EUGENIA: No… JOSÉ: ¿Te dan miedo de la pandilla? EUGENIA: Bueno, no le tenía. JOSÉ: ¿Tú tenía miedo? EUGENIA: Eso era mi amigo. JOSÉ: ¿Tu amigo? (Eugenia ríe) ¿la pandilla? Bueno, a mi tú mencionas ____ porque estaba fundamento se arigo. ¿Tú te recuerdas eso? EUGENIA: No, no me recuerdo. JOSÉ: (ríe) A mí me sacó de eso. A ocho nade. EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: ¿No recuerdas eso? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: También cosinante algo _____________ ¿Tú no recuerdas eso de consinante? EUGENIA: Yo solo metía en la cocina ayudando. JOSÉ: No pero yo digo para jóvenes. (hablan a la misma vez) Digo _____consinante_____________ EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. JOSÉ: Tú eres… señora mexicana que se llama Mrs. Eragon. Como mexicana ________________________ después. Pero ya cocinaba mucho tú también ¿cocinabas para Young Lords y ella también? EUGENIA: mhm 1:20:30 JOSÉ: Que fui a pecar otra vez_____ ¿Tú no recuerdas de eso? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo que hace tantos los años. �JOSÉ: Está olvidándole. EUGENIA: Estoy durmiendo, ¿eh? 1:20:42 JOSÉ: ¿Tienes sueño? EUGENIA: Tengo sueño. JOSÉ: Okay, cinco minutos más. EUGENIA: Es mucho, cinco minutos. JOSÉ: (ríen) EUGENIA: Muchacho... Solo once y media. JOSÉ: Okay entonces… entonces te… perdona un momento… Okay, entonces este… Cuando tú estabas en la Santa Teresa…Nosotros estábamos en la Santa Teresa viviendo en el veintiuno diecisiete del piso. El piso de Dickens. 1:21:18 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Entonces vivía allí muchos años? Entonces de allí, entonces… para la Clairmont y porque… ¿Qué te recuerdas de eso y entonces porque mudamos? ¿Qué estaba pasando en el área porque mudamos? EUGENIA: Era que tu papá quería mudarse. JOSÉ: ¿El quería mudarse? EUGENIA: El quería mudarse donde eran más latinos. JOSÉ: Pero, okay. 1:21:53 EUGENIA: Eso era todo. Se mudaba de esa forma. JOSÉ: Pero ¿entonces ya no era latinos allí? EUGENIA: Habían latinos pero él quería conocer más. JOSÉ: ¿Conocer más? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Y entonces este… ¿Y no subieran renta o nada eso? EUGENIA: No, eso subiera la renta o alguno cuando uno votaba a una subiera la renta. JOSÉ: ¿Cómo eso? EUGENIA: Cuando quiera mudara, subir la renta. JOSÉ: So allí pagaba como, yo creo, como ochenta peso. EUGENIA: No sé. �JOSÉ: Pero entonces ¿subieron como 4, 7 o algo _______ a otro? EUGENIA: No sé. JOSÉ: ¿Era que hacía? ¿No sabes? _____________ EUGENIA: No recuerdo. JOSÉ: Pero ¿subieron la renta? EUGENIA: Subiera la renta entonces por unos estaban buscando porque estaban más baratos. Eso era. JOSÉ: ¿Los puertorriqueños buscan los más baratos? EUGENIA: Los más baratos. Siempre buscaban lo más baratos. Y buscaban cuando eran más puertorriqueños para estar los latinos juntos. 1:22:52 JOSÉ: ¿So siempre los puertorriqueños buscan donde viven más puertorriqueños? EUGENIA: Uh huh, se buscaban uno a los otros. JOSÉ: ¿Siguieron mudándose cada cuadra detrás de otros? EUGENIA: Uh huh. Se mudaban uno, “Mira renta de aquella apartamento” todo junto ___________todos estaban buscando unidad puertorriqueña. JOSÉ: ¿Como unidad puertorriqueña? 1:23:23 EUGENIA: Pues _________ tú tienes una familia… y lo puertorriqueña era no como una familia. JOSÉ: ¿La clase puertorriqueña? EUGENIA: Pues claro. 1:23:35 JOSÉ: ¿Por eso se buscaban? EUGENIA: Pues buscaban uno a otros. JOSÉ: ¿Cuándo empezaba a subir la renta, una, eso se mudaba? EUGENIA: mhm, sí JOSÉ: Y entonces ¿los demás lo seguían? EUGENIA: Pues los demás lo seguían porque, porque… JOSÉ: Porque estaba subiendo la renta. EUGENIA: Porque estaba subiendo la renta. JOSÉ: ______________________ una myra no mucho 1:23:57 EUGENIA: Era todo. La renta subiera a todo. JOSÉ: ¿Por qué subiera la renta? EUGENIA: Porque tienen que pagar más. �JOSÉ: ¿Por qué tienen que pagar más? EUGENIA: porque le subían. Tiene que pagar tanto. Y entonces si no, tiene que irte. 1:24:15 JOSÉ: Pero eso para, ¿no era para limpiar el barrio? EUGENIA: Ahora yo no sé. JOSÉ: Para limpiar el barrio, ¿no? 1:24:24 EUGENIA: Uh huh. Así que yo no sé. No yo recuerdo ya. JOSÉ: ¿Pero que tú sabes que estaba subiendo la renta y entonces…? EUGENIA: Sí, se conseguía más barato en otros sitios y en el hall… más cómodo. Cuando unos se cambiaron para allá. Además, los puertorriqueños buscaban uno a los otros para estar juntos. Eso era la, lo que buscaban. JOSÉ: Pero ¿unos no sienten mal que tienen que dejarlo lo que tenían, el barrio que tenía? EUGENIA: No se sienten nada. JOSÉ: ¿No se sienten nada? _________ 1:25:03 EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿Porque no tenía conexión al barrio? ¿Se notaba conectado a Chicago? ¿Estaba conectado a Puerto Rico? ¿O como era? EUGENIA: ______ todo eso. ________ conectado a Puerto Rico. JOSÉ: ¿Conectados unos mismo? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿A los puertorriqueños de allí? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿So era como una planeta nueva para los puertorriqueños. 1:25:45 EUGENIA: Pues claro. Pues era como… suponen esto… tú tienes una casa… y tú tienes la silla. Entonces yo voy y me mudó por este apartamento, un cuarto o que sea. Entonces yo tengo gente que conozco y la casa vacía, pues yo digo, yo vivo, hay apartamentos más sencillos. La gente se iba. Y hiciera menos dinero de lo que ellos pagaban a donde estaba. ______ se iba. JOSÉ: ___________________ más barato. EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿Más barato entonces? EUGENIA: Claro que sí. Entonces los puertorriqueños no buscaban a esta manera. 1:26:27 JOSÉ: Pues ¿tú crees que no les afectaba a los niños que tienen que mudar tanto? ¿En la cuela? �EUGENIA: Uno no piensa eso. Uno lo que piensa este salir de este lugar porque no le gusta uno a otro. Uno no piensa, no piensa esto que se puede afectar a los niños y nada. Quieren mudarse. JOSÉ: ¿Y la mayor parte no le gusta porque subieron la renta? EUGENIA: Porque sube la renta. JOSÉ: ¿No era por la cucaracha ni nada eso? 1:27:02 EUGENIA: Quizás esto también. (ríen) JOSÉ: Porque no había mucho cucaracha también, ¿no? EUGENIA: No, donde yo vivía _____ según uno tenga un apartamento limpio o algo. Había tanto cucaracha. Había porque eso era donde queda. Y si uno le daba alimiento _________ JOSÉ: So no era, ¿so lo mudamos no por la cucaracha ni nada eso? EUGENIA: No, mudamos porque buscábamos el ambiente mejor. JOSÉ: Yo recuerdo que en el piso de los Dickens que el ambiente era bueno. Estaba mejor ambiente que yo me recuerdo. ¿Y mudamos allí porque sería? EUGENIA: No recuerdo tampoco yo. JOSÉ: ¿Y la cuadra completa de los puertorriqueños? ¿Entre la Dickens y la Webster en la biso? ¿Eso era los puertorriqueños por dos lados de la calle? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Ya era no se venían ningún puertorriqueño allí? EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿No se ve? EUGENIA: Yo no sé. JOSÉ: Bueno estaba frente de _______ San Miguel. ¿Te recuerdas? ¿En vez de San Miguel y no había puertorriqueño? ___ el hall ______apartamiento, ¿no? EUGENIA: No sé. JOSÉ: Okay. No quiero poner palabras en la boca. Okay. Vamos a _____. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e0afadde1ca08112672d4481c49583dc.mp4 10b704743ae0d0378d3fd66b6c7f8e19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Eugenia Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Eugenia_1 Title A name given to the resource Eugenia Rodríguez video interview and biography, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Eugenia Description An account of the resource Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez was sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. In 1949, Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York and then to Boston. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-04 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e44c2adbc465e8ed45f8948b23f5d2a4.pdf 8d8544dc68d89fcc71d4f0920fa40390 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: David Rodriguez Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/15/2012 Runtime: 01:19:32 Biography and Description Oral history of David Rodriguez, interviewed by “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on May 15, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you can start with your name, where you were born, and what year -- you know, what’s the -DAVID RODRIGUEZ: Okay, my name’s David Rodriguez. I was born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1956 on Chicago Avenue in Henrotin Hospital, okay? JJ: Henrotin Hospital? DR: Henrotin Hospital, I remember. Can’t get too much more Chicago-er than that. JJ: Oh, yeah, that’s Henrotin Hospital by LaSalle. DR: That’s right, LaSalle, on LaSalle. JJ: I thought it was on Oak Street. DR: Well, now it is. JJ: Yeah, it’s on Oak Street. DR: Yeah, so that’s where I -- JJ: It’s right between Chicago, Illinois. DR: Exactly. And after that, I don’t remember too much until I get older, okay? (laughs) JJ: Okay. No, that’s fine. DR: So -- JJ: Who’s your mother and father? DR: My mom and dad are Roman Rodriguez and Clotidle Rodriguez Flores, and if I’m not wrong, it was 1953 [00:01:00] when they got to Chicago. And they went there like all the other families that were going at that time from Puerto Rico. 1 �They went there looking for work, okay? I have other aunts. Their mom was part of the (Spanish) [00:01:16]. They went to different parts of the States too, Atlanta and parts like that, looking for work. They worked in the fields picking tomatoes JJ: Picking tomatoes? DR: -- okay? And actually, my dad got involved with the community through the churches, and my mom and dad worked with the churches in the communities. They worked with the priests, and they started creating new organizations and groups in the church. And they would have their own parties and stuff like that, and that was basically it. In those days, there were not that many Puerto Ricans in Chicago, okay? We were, I think, one of the first 40 or 50 families that were there, [00:02:00] and you were there. And you should know that too because you were part of the family, you know? And basically, we all went to school in the same area. We grew up together. Our family was really tight. We were always at parties together; you know, family reunions and things like that every year. I mean, basically, we saw each other all the time, okay? It was not a once a year thing, so we knew each other well, okay? It was more like one big family with sisters and cousins and brothers and stuff like that, you know? We watched out for each other, you know. JJ: So what do you mean? How did we see each other often in -- DR: Oh, we went all the time to the family parties, to the family reunions, to the church parties that were going on, the organizations they had going on. I would go all the time over where you were hanging out with the Young Lords, and I 2 �remember you used to get on the mic -- “That’s my little cousin going by me,” at the church on Dayton. I remember all of that stuff -JJ: Yeah, that [was fun?]. DR: -- and [00:03:00] then I remember there was a problem, okay? I was still kinda young. I remember one of the Ramos boys was shot or something like that. JJ: Manuel Ramos. DR: Manuel Ramos. JJ: Did you know the whole family, or...? DR: Well, Billy Ramos was one of the first musicians I worked with. JJ: Who? DR: Billy Ramos, William, his -- JJ: Oh, you did? DR: -- younger brother, and we went to school at the same school. JJ: I didn’t know that. So William Ramos was Manuel Ramos and Tyron Ramos’ brother? DR: Right. JJ: And what did he play? DR: He played timbales. JJ: He plays timables? DR: He’s a timbalero, yeah. JJ: Okay, so he was the little one. DR: He was the youngest that I remember. JJ: William Ramos? 3 �DR: Yeah, Willy Ramos. JJ: And then he played timbales for what band? DR: It was with -- JJ: I’m sorry. I have to -- (break in audio) DR: Yeah, Willy ran with -- JJ: Willy Ramos. DR: -- [Defunto’s?] brother, right. And basically, Billy was a timbalero, [00:04:00] went to school with us at -- JJ: What school? DR: Wasn’t that called -- what was that school? I can’t -- JJ: Franklin. You remember Franklin? DR: No, it was the Catholic school. JJ: Immaculate Conception? DR: No, it was by Sheffield and Armitage, the one over there. JJ: St. Teresa’s? DR: St. Teresa’s, okay. JJ: So he was going to St. Teresa’s with you? DR: Yeah, we went to St. Teresa’s. JJ: You went to St. Teresa’s? DR: Yeah, I went to St. Teresa’s. I went to also Immaculate Conception. He was also there with us too -- JJ: I remember that. 4 �DR: -- okay? And the first band he played with was a band that we called Latin Explosion. That was the first band that we played together in, but as far as bands go, that was not the first orchestra I heard. Oh, yeah, he also played in the very first kids band we ever had, which was in Immaculate Conception. JJ: You might have to repeat it for me. So this was Manuel Ramos from the Young Lords? DR: [00:05:00] Manuel Ramos from the Young Lords’ little brother, Billy Ramos. JJ: The one that got killed by the police? DR: Exactly. I remember it like today, the march and everything down there. JJ: What do you remember of the march? DR: What do I remember from the march? JJ: I mean, how did it -- DR: I remember it -- JJ: -- occur to you? DR: -- looked like an army coming down the street. I mean, I was a kid, you know. This is what we saw as kids. We saw this huge army coming in full gear, you know, coming down the streets, and we were like, “Wow, what’s going on here?” Carrying a coffin with the flag and all this stuff -- and I remember people screaming and crying. Really a shame, you know? Those were rough days. JJ: There were a lot of people? DR: There was thousands and thousands and thousands of people. I mean, it was -- JJ: Yeah, it was a lot. 5 �DR: -- thousands of people, yeah. There was definitely a lot of people. It looked like, I said, a sea of people. It looked like an army was marching through the city, you know what I mean? And those are the fresh memories that I have. JJ: Now, how did you feel? Because most of these were Puerto Ricans. DR: Well, you got to remember I was [00:06:00] young. I can tell you we took it like, “Okay, wow, that’s our community,” and we were proud, you know. But I didn’t realize exactly what was going on, you know? We looked at it more like, “Wow, Puerto Rican power! That’s [amazing?],” you know. But we weren’t really into the movement or anything, or looking into what was happening or anything. We just were riding with the crowd. The people that were feeling it, though -- later as I grew up, I thought about those things, and I remembered what I saw. And then I said, “Wow, that was really a sad situation,” you know? Those were turbulent times, you know, in Chicago. JJ: Turbulent times at that time? DR: That’s what it was, turbulent times. JJ: But how did the parents feel about it? DR: The parents? Well, you know the community in Chicago. Some of the family members were fine with it. Some weren’t. You know, some looked at it like, “If you are talking bad about the government and the United States, oh, they’re going to blacklist the whole family. Everybody’s in trouble,” this and that. [00:07:00] And they didn’t realize that there was just a movement going on, not only with the Puerto Rican community. It was going on in the Black community and even in the white community. It was going on in all the communities at that 6 �time. In the ’60s, there were just movements because people were fed up with politics as usual, and they just wanted to change things. Thus, Obama, (laughter) okay? JJ: Yeah. What was St. Teresa’s like? What type of population was there? DR: St. Teresa’s? Remember, it’s a Catholic school. Now, in the Puerto Rican community, their religion is real important. In those days, you couldn’t get smart with a nun. You couldn’t get smart with a priest. You wouldn’t think about saying anything wrong to any one of them. Okay, an example: if you were in a Catholic school like I was, in those days, the teachers had the right to spank you. They didn’t beat you up or anything, but they would take a ruler [00:08:00] and give you a quick thwack. And if you said something to one of these teachers, or if you went back to your parents and said, “The nun hit me --” “Oh, the nun hit you?” Bam, you get hit again because -- JJ: You get hit again. DR: -- yeah, you did something in front of them. If a nun hit you when you did something, you’re a bad boy, (laughs) you know? So that’s the way it was. So actually, I -- JJ: So what grades did you go? DR: All the way to eighth grade. JJ: So first to eighth grade? DR: From first to eighth grade. JJ: I was going to say I only went sixth, seventh, and eighth. 7 �DR: Oh, yeah, you’re lucky you went through those grades. No, I went from first to eighth, and after that, then I was thrown to the dogs at Tuley High School the first time I was ever in a public school. Shock treatment. It’s like, you know -- JJ: So where were you living at when you went to St. Teresa’s? DR: We were living on Armitage and Sheffield right in the heart of -- JJ: Right by Lincoln Park? DR: -- Lincoln Park. JJ: Armitage and Sheffield? DR: Armitage and Sheffield. JJ: And do you remember the address? DR: Nineteen Twenty, something [00:09:00] like that, Sheffield. JJ: Sheffield? DR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. And so what years are we talking about? DR: We’re talking about there 1968, ’69. JJ: Okay, that’s when the Young Lords were there. DR: Right, when the Young Lords were there. You guys were all over Dayton and -- JJ: We were all over Dayton? And what -- DR: The People’s Park had just been finished. JJ: So people knew about the People’s Park? DR: Yeah, everybody knew about the People’s Park. It was -- JJ: The whole community? 8 �DR: The whole community. I mean, all the kids after it was built -- that’s where they went, and everybody knew about the Young Lords. We also knew that the Young Lords were the only group that was really helping the community in those days. They started the lunch program for the kids. A lot of kids would go to school hungry in those days until that -- I remember the first day it started at our school, even. We were like, “Wow, free lunch today,” (laughs) and it was pretty good. JJ: (inaudible) DR: Exactly, you know, so they started that. And I remember they would come, and they would give shots to the kids at the church and [00:10:00] stuff like that. And they’d distribute out food to the -- I remember they worked with a lot of the poor women and the women that had children that didn’t have fathers. JJ: The daycare center. DR: The daycare center, exactly, and I remember all of that stuff. JJ: So the whole community was kind of involved in that whole thing? DR: The whole community was involved with it; basically the whole community. JJ: You’re talking about a big area? DR: No, we’re talking about a huge area. We’re talking about where all of the major population of the Puerto Ricans was in Chicago at that time. JJ: It was at -- DR: This was at Lincoln Park. JJ: -- Lincoln Park. 9 �DR: And the Division in Armitage of what they call the barrio now existed, but it was nothing like Lincoln Park. Lincoln Park was the area. That’s where the Young Lords were. That’s where the music was. That’s where the community leaders were. That’s where the organizations were. Everything was coming out of there. JJ: Out of Lincoln Park? DR: Out of the Lincoln Park area. JJ: And you mentioned the music. What kind of music were you hearing? DR: Well, okay, now the music is what I am. I’m a musician. JJ: You’re a musician. DR: [00:11:00] I’m a musician. I’ve been a musician all my life. You should know that. Basically, in those days or a little bit before that, the Puerto Ricans -- when they first got here, there was no salsa bands or no big, Latin jazz bands or any other kind of bands like that in Chicago. There was little combitos, and you know, whatever came from the island. JJ: You mean combos? DR: Little combos, you know, and trios and things like that, stuff that came from the island. A few guys got together here and there, and they made a little group or a little trio, or a little group -- JJ: Who were some of the trios that you remember? DR: Calpio y su Trio. JJ: Which one? DR: Calpio. JJ: Calpio? 10 �DR: [Luis Catala?], okay, and then the combitos were [Heberto?] y su Combo, [Carlito?] y Su Combo, Felipe y Su Combo, Vitin Santiago. Tony Quintana y Su Quinteto. You know, those were the little things, and that -- JJ: And these were in Chicago? DR: These were in Chicago, but they weren’t popular. [00:12:00] You know, that’s what they had, and so -- JJ: Because I remember Tony Quintana. DR: Well, Tony Quintana also had-- what do you call that? -- sold airline tickets in agencies. And plus, he had the TV show -- JJ: That’s right. That’s what I remember. DR: -- so that’s where he used to sell all his tickets. (laughs) Great guy, Tony; I love him. But anyway, so those guys were basically -- that’s what that was. They weren’t the best at what they did, but that’s what we had. And so whenever there was a party, that’s what came on. And people were happy to see it because they didn’t have anything else. All the sudden, the kids that were being born, me, us in general, and all the kids that were young at that time, didn’t get into Latin music immediately. We started playing rock and roll, and blues and soul music, and rhythm and blues, Santana music, and stuff like that. And they were all over us. “No, you guys can’t do that! No, [00:13:00] we need Latin bands!” I remember it at home constantly. “What are you doing? You’re playing this stuff. No, don’t you play any Jíbaro music?” “No, Pop, that’s for Jíbaros, you know.” We thought that was a saying that was like a hick, Jíbaro from the mountains, and we didn’t realize that we were laughing at our own culture. We were young. 11 �We weren’t born in Puerto Rico. We were born in Chicago and raised in Chicago. We had a conflict going on at home. We were being taught the Puerto Rican culture. And we would get on the streets, and then we were being taught the American culture. So it’s like, we had to mix ’em both together. JJ: I mean, what were some of the differences? DR: Some of the differences? The language, mainly. You would go out on the street all day. You’d be at school in English. Everything with your friends was in English. And now all the sudden, you came home, and you had to talk Spanish, I mean, because your parents didn’t talk English. They had just gotten here, gotten off the boat, you know what I’m saying? And they were still learning the language. A few broken words -- they knew [00:14:00] enough to get along on their jobs. JJ: What about their style versus what you were seeing at school, even the way they dressed and everything like that? I mean, what -- DR: Oh, yeah, that was different. JJ: Were you ever embarrassed? DR: We were greasers. (laughs) JJ: You were greasers? DR: We had greased back hair and everything. JJ: And dirty hair and everything like that. DR: Yeah, I mean, they dressed -- JJ: And it was really curly. DR: You know, exactly. 12 �JJ: Dry, curly hair. DR: Dry, curly hair. JJ: (inaudible) DR: Exactly, and we were greasers, man. You know, our mothers would come and iron our hair. (laughter) Remember that? JJ: I remember that, yeah. DR: And that was unbelievable, you know? “What are you doing to my hair? I have good hair,” you know? JJ: And that’s where your bad hair comes from. DR: Yeah, [it was like?], “Jesus.” That’s where it came from. That’s why they did that. Everybody was mixed like that, but that’s basically what it was like. JJ: And were you ever at all embarrassed of their style? DR: No, I can’t say I was ever -- actually, I was always [00:15:00] proud of my parents, and I was kinda proud of my whole family. I was proud of you. Many, many times, I would throw your name out. “Oh, my cousin’s Cha-Cha Jiménez.” (laughter) I was a young kid. You were Cha-Cha, you know, so many times, I put you out there. I put you on the line, man. And my parents both worked with the community and the churches and stuff, so I was really proud of them too. JJ: So they were working with the community? DR: Yeah. Actually, that’s what made me -- JJ: So what was your father’s involvement? DR: My father was involved with the Caballeros de San Juan, with the (Spanish) [00:15:32] with the Hermanos de la Familia de Dios. You know, they’d do 13 �dances for the community, and they hired bands from out of town. And they would come in, and they would play, I mean, big dances. One time, they brought Tito Rodríguez, and that was huge for the Puerto Rican community. And El Gran Combo, another time, they brung. The first time Gran Combo came, the Caballeros de San Juan brung him. JJ: Oh, the Caballeros de San Juan brung him at that time? DR: Now, [00:16:00] in those days, there was one Latin band. (laughs) JJ: One Latin band? DR: One salsa band, I’m going to say, not Latin. JJ: In Chicago? DR: One salsa band, and the salsa movement was starting up in the ’60s too. And all the sudden, that band started up, which was La Conquistadora -- JJ: La Conquistadora. DR: -- which was (Spanish) [00:16:18] our family members too. JJ: They were part of it? DR: Yeah, they were our family members. JJ: (Spanish) [00:16:24]? DR: Jesus Rodriguez. JJ: And Jesus Rodriguez was also from the Caballeros de San Juan? DR: Exactly, our cousins. JJ: So they were...? DR: They had a band called La Conquistadora, and -- JJ: That was the only band? 14 �DR: That was the only band, and they would play all the dances for the Caballeros de San Juan, unless they were bringing somebody else from out of town. That’s what actually got me started into salsa music because I went to one of the rehearsals, and I saw them rehearsing. And I said, “Geez, these are my cousins. This is something I never heard before.” I was playing rock and roll, and Ricky was playing rock and roll. [00:17:00] He had a band too. JJ: Ricky, our cousin? DR: Ricky, our other cousin. He had a band of his own, and they were all playing rock and roll, and Beatles stuff and stuff like this. And all the sudden, I heard our other cousins that came from the island were playing this. And then I said, “Wait, what’s this?” JJ: And so -- DR As far as I was concerned, Latin music was cuatros, you know, jibaro music, trio music, and bolero music, you know what I mean? JJ: But you played the bass. DR: Right, so as far as I’m concerned, that’s basically what I thought Puerto Ricans had until I was awakened. And I said, “Wait a minute, these people have big bands. I want to know a little bit more about my culture.” And then so actually, that was part of our family (inaudible) too because -- JJ: So here, we had a family in Puerto Rico that’s playing one type of music, and a family in Chicago playing it differently? DR: Completely. JJ: Completely different? 15 �DR: Completely different. JJ: But then -- DR: And then when they came to Chicago -- JJ: So when this was awakened in your eyes, it was like you had to learn both cultures? DR: I had to learn both, [00:18:00] exactly. That’s why -- JJ: Because that was really Puerto Rican. They were both Puerto Rican. DR: Exactly, that’s the way it was. Both cultures needed to be learned. JJ: And so which -- DR: And not only that because don’t forget that by that time, we were getting older. Our parents were starting to take us out to the parties. You know, we were 12, 13 years old by then, 14, and so they wanted music for the kids too, for the teenagers. So they would hire a band that could play Latin music and American music. Thus, Ricky makes a little bust in La Conquistadora. Then finally, in about 1968, ’69, completely everything changes. I heard some stuff from a guy out of New York called Willie Colón, and it was being played in all the bars. And Willie Colón and Héctor Lavoe got really big in Chicago, and they were the ones that you could say [00:19:00] basically got all the bands to switch over from rock and blues and jazz to start playing salsa, okay? When Willie Colón hit the scene, all the bands in Chicago wanted to play that stuff. Back then, they weren’t -- JJ: So what are some of the bands at this time that you can -- DR: There was a band called the Soul Medallions. I don’t know if you remember the Soul Medallions. 16 �JJ: [I can’t say that I do?]. DR: They were the hottest band. They were everywhere. JJ: What type of music did they play? DR: They played salsa. They played Joe Cuba stuff because they had vibes, so they played a lot of Joe Cuba stuff with Cheo Feliciano singing and stuff like that. Great stuff. And then came La Justicia. And when La Justicia came out, they were actually a band called The Mystics, but they were rhythm and blues and soul music. And they broke up, and they knew -- JJ: They were The Mystics first, and they played rhythm and soul? Because I remember those type of bands too. DR: Right, they were The Mystics. JJ: The Mystics. DR: [00:20:00] They switched from being a rhythm and soul band, they switched completely over to a salsa band -- JJ: A salsa band. DR: -- okay? And La Solución was originally a Santana band, but before that, you had -- JJ: You were in La Solución. DR: I had La Solución, but before that, there was, like I said, the Soul Medallions, La Justicia, La Confidencia, Oportunidad, La Unión, La Solución, La Humanidad, La Liberación, Latin Explosion, Heberto y Sus Estrellas -- Jesus, there’s so many bands and -- JJ: This was in the ’60s? 17 �DR: This was during the ’60s, yeah. JJ: The middle or late ’60s? DR: No, these were from about ’68 to about ’77, ’78. JJ: And they were playing in what neighborhoods? DR: They were playing in all the Puerto Rican neighborhoods, in all the American neighborhoods. We had all the neighborhoods. JJ: So they were making money? DR: Yes, definitely, and we were in the Black neighborhoods. We were in the American neighborhoods. We were in the Italian neighborhoods. What happened was when that music hit the scene, [00:21:00] all the people in Chicago, all the promoters -- and I’m not talking about just Latino promoters. The American promoters were freaking out because all of the sudden, they were having all of these kinds of people showing up at, say, the Aragon Ballroom. You know, usually, they would have to hire an act from out of town or from Europe or from some other place to fill the Aragon Ballroom. This is the largest dancing ballroom in Chicago. It’s a huge venue, and so they would have to call people up there to fill this place, you know? Now, all the sudden, you had a bunch of local bands. Any one of ’em could fill the Aragon by itself, and it was a local band. And they were from the Puerto Rican community, which was a limited population, so they were like, “What the heck is going on here?” We actually went to play at Waller High School one time, [00:22:00] and that’s when we realized what we were doing and what was happening. The girls started throwing things at us, their underclothes. (laughs) We were like, “Wow, like we’re The Beatles or 18 �something?” So when we were trying to leave, they caused a huge riot. They had to call the police and everything. The police show up at Waller High School. “It’s a regular workday. What’s going on?” They show up and go, “Oh, man, you kids. We’ve heard about you guys. Yeah, no, you guys can’t play anymore unless you have a police escort.” So for about three months there at a certain point, because we’re -JJ: And what band was this? DR: La Solución. JJ: La Solución, okay. DR: For about three months there, we actually had to tell ’em where we were going to play so that they would know that we were in the area. And they would have a little bit more police in the area because it was just unbelievable. You did something yourself, which I always remember. [00:23:00] After Hector and Willie broke up, Héctor Lavoe and Willie Colón, you were the guy that finally got ’em together to do one show before they finally -- they never did anything else after that together. It was -- JJ: Oh, they didn’t do it after that? DR: No, and that was at Humboldt Park when you brung them in. I think that was -- JJ: That was in ’83. DR: In ’83, yeah. JJ: June of ’83. DR: Exactly, and -- JJ: That’s when we -- 19 �DR: -- that came out in the paper. Over 100,000 Puerto Ricans showed up for that concert. JJ: You played that, didn’t you? DR: My band, definitely. (laughs) JJ: I remember you were cheering for me. DR: Oh, definitely, yeah. But besides that, we had many orchestras. I had many -- JJ: Now, can you describe that day? Because that’s kind of important in our history. DR: That day was big. JJ: And how was your -- DR: Oh, no, you know, everybody was waiting for it. Everybody said first, when it was announced, “Willie Colón and Héctor Lavoe? They broke up. They hate each other.” (laughs) I mean, they hated each other. And I don’t know what you did, but the buzz was for about four weeks -- JJ: It’s called money. We paid them money. DR: Money. (laughter) Okay, [00:24:00] that’s probably what it is, money. JJ: We had money then. DR: Yeah, well, they showed up, and the people just wanted to go crazy. I mean, that was a big thing for Chicago. Even New York has to remember, and Puerto Rico has to. I mean, they have to bow to that. JJ: And you said it was a big thing for Chicago. What do you mean? DR: Well, it was the most important venue Willie Colón and Héctor Lavoe that I could say ever played because they literally drove 100,000 people by themselves -- JJ: To that event. 20 �DR: -- to that event, and it was done in Chicago. JJ: And the Young Lords had something to do with it. In fact, I was the -- DR: You were the only one, exactly. JJ: -- only one onstage. DR: Cha-Cha Jiménez. JJ: Yeah, so that was (inaudible). DR: So those were the days, and I remember also many of the musicians. I have to mention a few of these musicians -- they were good musicians -- like Ella Martinez, Jesús Soto; Edwin Rodriguez, my own brother; Hector del Valle. These are cats that -- they’re still playing, and they’re still out there [00:25:00] making good money. And they’re playing with big people and big stars. And they weren’t given as much credit as they should’ve gotten because there was so much trouble and static going on in the community at those times, you know? A lot of headhunting went on with the bands in those days too. JJ: What do you mean, headhunting? DR: Well, “My band’s better than your band.” They would go out there and actually try to take your gig. They’d show up with their whole band at your dance and try to take your gig. “Oh, let me play two sets there for free, and I’ll show you how good my band is,” (laughs) and they tried to take your work. JJ: You had competition, eh? DR: A lot of competition, which was bad because we didn’t need that in Chicago. It wasn’t as big as New York, and the population wasn’t as big as New York or Puerto Rico, so they were basically cutting each other’s throats. And we were 21 �seeing these people every day. We were seeing each other’s faces every day, and we’re cutting each other’s throats every day. It wasn’t good. It’s not like, you know, we saw this guy once in a [00:26:00] while. The community was so strong that we saw them all the time, so it’s like, “I know what you did.” So there was a lot of static that happened because of that. It was a different scene than New York or Puerto Rico. Chicago was different. JJ: What do you mean? DR: Well, remember, Chicago is an industrial city. People, when they moved there, they went to work. Parties in Chicago are basically Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, okay? It’s not a tourist city like New York or Miami or Puerto Rico or San Juan. You know, they live off the tourism label. How many millions and millions of people go to New York every year, the Big Apple, or Miami or Puerto Rico for their vacations, stuff like that? And so there’s a lot of parties, and a bigger venue for orchestras and for musicians. In Chicago, no. Chicago’s completely different. It’s a working class city, [00:27:00] okay? It’s an industrial city, and you work all week long. And Friday, Saturday, and Sunday is when you go out and party with your wife or with your girlfriend or whatever, and that’s when you go and see the musicians. And most of the musicians out there hold steady jobs, and I ain’t talking about musicians that, when they leave, play with the best bands in the world and they don’t have to work again in a factory. They just stay there because they have a job. You know, once you have a job, and you’re raising a family, you’re not going to be jumping from place to place or doing things like that. So the way I see it -- the settling of the Puerto Rican 22 �community in Chicago was done by the sons and daughters, not really the fathers and mothers, because a lot of the fathers and mothers packed up and left. And they’re still packing up and leaving, most of ’em, but their sons and daughters were raised there and born there. That’s what they know, so they’re staying there now, that first generation. Chicago is [00:28:00] actually, in my opinion, being built now. JJ: It’s being built now? DR: It’s being built now, in my opinion, by the kids that were left behind, by the first and second generation of Puerto Ricans that are starting to get into their fifties and their forties and that now. And they’re the ones making community movements and doing stuff with the community, and working with the new kids. And their kids are being born now, and their kids are starting to become teenagers and things like that. So yeah, in my opinion, now Chicago is actually being built as far as the community. That’s the way I see it. JJ: And you -- DR: But it couldn’t have been done without any of the struggles that were dealt. I mean, it just wouldn’t exist at all without what happened in the ’60s and the ’70s there. JJ: Which ones? DR: I mean, you have to realize there was a machine called the Daley Machine in Chicago. He was doing everything possible to clear out all the Latinos there in Chicago, okay? JJ: He didn’t like Latinos, [00:29:00] or he just didn’t like their neighborhood? 23 �DR: He just didn’t like their neighborhood, I think. It wasn’t so much a personal thing. I think it was more like, “We were here first,” that kind of a thing. He was Irish, then you had the Italian community add on next to it. So the Irish are coming down on us, you had the Italians, and they were their first. You had the mob and the Italianos. You’ve got the Irish mob, which is the police in Chicago, and you got, I mean, Daley’s gestapo. That’s what we used to call them, the Daley gestapo, the Irish cops, and then you had the Italian real mob. And then all of the sudden, you’re seeing these Puerto Ricans who aren’t scared of anything, (laughter) and they’re fighting with everybody. “We don’t care. No, get out of here!” “No, you make us move.” JJ: So what was -- DR: That was our attitude. JJ: So this is a physical thing? DR: Well, there was a physical thing going on, yeah. JJ: There was a physical thing? DR: There [00:30:00] was a physical thing, of course. I mean, you couldn’t walk through that neighborhood without being -- you had to run through the neighborhood. (laughter) Otherwise, you weren’t going to get out of their neighborhood, okay? That’s the way it was. JJ: Yeah, we had a motorcycle. DR: Yeah, the little motor. JJ: We came through the park. 24 �DR: Yeah, you just couldn’t get out of those neighborhoods, so it was bad. I remember one of our bass players from one of our bands was on the way over to rehearsal one time. He finally showed up at the rehearsal all beat up; broken nose, broken arm, this and that. Oh, the whole band ran out. “What happened?” “The Gaylords.” (laughter) Remember the Gaylords? They were basically American greasers, a hillbilly gang. JJ: So you’re talking about some of the gangs. The band had to fight the gangs? DR: Actually, most of the bands in Chicago were ex-gangbangers. (laughs) JJ: So they came out of the gangs, then? DR: Yeah, because if you weren’t in one, you had few probabilities of surviving. JJ: So you had to be in the gang at the time? Is that what you’re saying? DR: [00:31:00] Not so much be in it, but associated with it. JJ: Associated with it. DR: Yeah, you had to be associated. You didn’t have to really be in it. But if you associated with them, and trouble happened and you didn’t show your face, then you were also in trouble -- JJ: Also in trouble? DR: -- okay? So without coming out all the time and saying, “Yeah, I’m this,” or, “I’m that;” you know, just by saying, “Oh, I live here,” and, “That’s where I’m at.” JJ: So wherever you lived, you were part of the gang? DR: That’s basically it. JJ: That’s what it was. DR: If you wanted to live there in peace, that’s what it was. 25 �JJ: Now, to change the subject, I just wanted to make sure that -- there was the Puerto Rican Congress, and there was also Caribe Ruiz? DR: No, all in one. The Puerto Rican Congress was owned by Carlos “Caribe” Ruiz. That’s where all the bands were, and that’s -- JJ: That started on Larabee and North Avenue? DR: They started on Larabee and North Avenue. JJ: Were you there on Larabee and North Avenue? DR: No, I was not. I show up on the scene on 11th and North Avenue. JJ: So 11th and North Avenue? DR: That’s where [00:32:00] it became, really, the Congress; where they painted the murals and everything. JJ: So that was the Puerto Rican Congress there? DR: That was the Puerto Rican Congress. JJ: They moved to there? DR: They moved to there. JJ: So they used to be on Larabee and North Avenue? DR: They had the club on Larabee and North Avenue. That was the first Puerto Rican club. JJ: So it kind of moved west? DR: Right. That’s where all you guys went when you -- JJ: Right. When we were young, we used to go there. DR: That’s where you guys went. The first Puerto Ricans that got there -- that’s where they went. 26 �JJ: Because that’s where the Puerto Rican Parade was. DR: Exactly, that’s where the first Puerto Rican Parade -- which was Caribe that did it. JJ: Caribe Ruiz was part of it? DR: Caribe Ruiz was in the -- JJ: And the Caballeros de San Juan. DR: And the Caballeros de San Juan, and then he got into working with the kids in the community. That’s when all the bands were created. All those bands -- JJ: So what year was that? That’s what I’m trying to see. Can you explain a little bit about him, or...? DR: Caribe? JJ: Yeah, about Caribe. DR: Okay, so I can go as far as La Justicia with Caribe. Caribe started the bands; that’s where I come in. I can tell you Caribe really started the orchestras in Chicago. I’m not [00:33:00] saying he started the bands. The bands started themselves, but he took over them and he pushed ’em. And he was the one that gave them their names. He was the one that promoted ’em, and without him, none of those bands would’ve had any recognition at all. I mean, I have to be honest about that. A lot of people throw (Spanish) [00:33:16] on Caribe. They didn’t like him because he did so much. It was basically because they were just jealous. For me, they just didn’t like him because they were jealous. I couldn’t find any other reason. They would say this about him, and they would say that about him when it all came down to this. They were unhappy because he was getting money for the bands, and he had seven, eight bands. He had the 27 �majority of the bands, and they were all the best bands. He started ’em himself. You know, he pushed these bands. He bought them equipment. He got every band a brand new PA, every band new amps, every band new personal instruments, everybody band brand new uniforms. Every band was recording, [00:34:00] you know, and Caribe did this. Before that, there was nothing coming out of Chicago. JJ: So he was managing. He was making money, but he was using that money to promote the bands. DR: He was reinvesting it. He was always reinvesting -- JJ: Reinvesting it. DR: -- the money. And usually, 90 percent of the musicians would come to him during the week. “Hey, Caribe, I need 20 or 30 bucks.” He was like a little piggy bank. Every day, 20 or 30 musicians would say, “Give me some money,” and he was just passing -- he never said no. Never, so we never had to really -- and plus, we got paid at our gigs. (laughs) JJ: For a change, yeah. DR: For a change. JJ: He made sure that, you know -- but there’s no free beer here. You had to play for it. DR: Exactly, so that’s basically what was going on with Caribe. Caribe also was involved with a lot of community organizations. The Trina Davila Center -- he worked with you guys -- JJ: Yeah, with the Young Lords. 28 �DR: -- the Young Lords, many times, and he also gave music for you for whatever kind of occasion you guys needed. We did a [00:35:00] lot of work with the community organizations, a lot of it, and that was another good thing that the bands did. That helps the community. JJ: So he promoted the salsa in Chicago and Hispanic music. DR: All of it. He definitely promoted all the salsa in Chicago, all of it. JJ: Because like you said, there was some bands before that were playing, but they had some -- DR: They never really did anything. None of those bands that I mentioned before ever really made any noise, how do you say. They broke up. The bands after that, though, that Caribe handled, they all had a name. They were all recognized through all Latin -- I mean, everywhere you went, they knew about the bands in Chicago. JJ: Some of them, I remember. I’m just trying to find those other bands who came back from Lincoln Park, any salsa bands. DR: Well, definitely, I’ll tell you what -- JJ: Well, the Puerto Rican Congress was the -- DR: -- La León, La Solución, most of the guys from La Justicia, most of the guys from La Confidencia -- JJ: Were from Lincoln Park? DR: They were all from Lincoln Park too, [00:36:00] yeah. JJ: They were all from Lincoln Park, okay. DR: That’s where they were born. You know, they took -- 29 �JJ: Okay, [now even?] before that summer, some of the guys were -- wherever they lived, they had to be part of the gang. So when you lived there, what was the gang there? DR: (laughter) There was a gang there. JJ: Weren’t you part of a group, or no? DR: I was recognized as part of a group. JJ: Okay, what was that group? You weren’t in the group? DR: My brothers and I -- no, I was never in the group. I was just recognized as part of the group, okay? The Latin Kings. JJ: The Latin Kings? Okay. DR: Lived there all of my life on Sheffield and Armitage, Armitage and Richmond. I always lived in Latin Kings territory. Actually, I was one of the original Pee Wees from Dayton and Armitage. (laughs) JJ: You were one [00:37:00] of the Pee Wees from where? DR: Dayton and Armitage. JJ: And then the -- DR: Piso, Wiso, Baby, me -- we had Frankie, a bunch of guys. JJ: In the Latin Kings? Okay, because that was turned into the Medinas -- were they part of that group? DR: Yeah, they were part of that group. JJ: So they were part of that group. DR: They were all part of that group, but that’s something today I won’t dwell on. You know, those are -- 30 �JJ: Because when you’re growing up, you do -- DR: Growing up, exactly. You grow up, and it’s a life experience. JJ: Because you said you were in that part of Chicago. DR: And actually, when we got into the music thing, I would go and play in all those rival gang territories. And they recognized me all the time. And, you know, I told ’em, “Listen, I’m a musician, man.” “We know, man. Don’t worry about it.” JJ: But didn’t you tell me some stories about -- you had to duck a few times? DR: Well, yeah, we had to duck quite a few times, you know? JJ: So give me an example. DR: Okay, here’s a good example. We went to play at a place up on the northside in [00:38:00] the Lake View area. (laughter) And we get to this place. It was a house party, and the band was playing. And some of the guys recognized the guys in the band, and they said, “Man, half that band is Latin Kings.” It was a house party for another gang, so finally, they realized. And I had to go to the guy, and I said, “Listen, you know, your buddies want to tear us apart, man. I mean, we’re going to have to defend ourselves here in a few seconds, you know. What are you going to do? I mean, you hired us to play here. You knew that this was going to --” “No, don’t worry. I’ll take care of the situation.” This is the way they take care of that situation: they line up seven guys in front of the orchestra with bats and knives. (laughter) And they say, “The first one that dares touch any one of these guys has to cross this line.” And we played the rest of the night with seven guys in front of [00:39:00] the band. JJ: That’s the way it was. 31 �DR: I’m not kidding. This actually happened. God, Jimmy, I hope you remember that. (laughter) Actually, when we left, though -- the protection ends at the door. JJ: When you had to leave? DR: The protection ends at the door. Once you load that car, and that last guy walks out that door, jump in the car and run as fast as you can because -- “Bananas! Bananas!” And they start throwing everything they can. JJ: That’s what they used to call the Kings back then? DR: Bananas -- JJ: Because of their colors? DR: -- because of their colors, yeah, so that’s basically what happened there. I can name you bad times with the bands. When the bands were first starting in Chicago, a lot of them didn’t sound that great, okay? They were young kids, remember, that were learning. JJ: So you -- DR: And all the old folks wanted to see their kids playing, so they were hiring these kids to play with -- JJ: It’s a learning [00:40:00] process. DR: -- exorbitant amounts of money, okay? They were paying money for these kids that were learning, okay? And so we went to play at this place in Gary, Indiana one time, La Solución Orchestra, and I remember being on stage. And the band had only been together about three or four months, and it wasn’t a band yet, okay? It was a bunch of noise still, but they hired us. And they hired La Justicia Orchestra, thank God. Those guys were always La Solución’s best friends, 32 �okay? And people booed us off the stage. They booed the band literally. Some of the guys started crying. Remember, we had guys in the band who were 13 years old. Some were as young as 12, 14, 15. I was one of the older ones at 16, and a few of the other guys started crying. They had nerves back then. They started just crying. A lot of them wanted to stop playing music permanently, and I remember the manager and the guys [00:41:00] from La Justicia coming up and saying, “Listen, man, don’t worry about it. One day, they’re going to wish they can get your band in there.” And, you know, about four or five years later when La Solución really hottest thing there was, there was -- we had just come back from Puerto Rico. We were traveling. We had our records out. We were the band, and we had gone back to Indiana many times but for other people. And we were making them pay the price. (laughter) We remembered all the time what had happened in Indiana, so every time they mentioned Indiana, you know, if it was a regular 2,000 dollars, we’d go, “No, 4,000 dollars. You want us to move? That’s it.” So I walked into the Congress one time; Caribe was there. I went to get Caribe to give me some money. (laughs) I walk in, and Caribe goes, “Hey, Dave, how you doin’? You need some money?” And I go, “Yeah, I need some money.” He goes, “Sit [00:42:00] down. Hey, you know who this man is here?” I’m looking at the guy going, “Actually, no.” And Caribe goes, “This is the bass player from La Solución.” The guy gets up and -- “Oh, it’s a pleasure to meet you,” and this and that. “Oh, yeah, sure. Nice to meet you,” and this and that. And Caribe goes, “Remember that time we played in Indiana, that they booed you guys off the stage, and the owner of the dance came up and said, 33 �‘Don’t ever bring me these kids again’? He wants to hire the band now.” (laughter) It was him. And I looked at the guy, and I go, “Really?” And the guy goes, “Yeah, but you know, you guys were young.” And I go, “Yeah, but you didn’t want to give us a break. Look what we are now.” You know, I told him just like that, but we gave him a break coming down to three or four hundred dollars’ difference. We still screwed him. (laughs) Is that allowed to be said? JJ: (laughs) Yeah, you can say that. So where are you at today? You’re living in Puerto Rico, and -- DR: I live in Arroyo, Puerto Rico. I’ve been living here [00:43:00] now 12 years, and I play -- JJ: Why did you decide to come down here? DR: I had some back surgery done. I won some money in a lawsuit, and I always wanted to move to Puerto Rico because of the music. I just wanted to move here, you know? I wanted to try something else in Latin music because Chicago had run out of its boundaries for me. It wasn’t doing what I wanted to hear, so I came here to try some different stuff. Actually, I’ve gone good so far, so... JJ: And [what do you play?]? DR: Well, I play with the Puerto Rico Latin Xpress Orchestra. That’s my orchestra with Tino Sanchez, one of the best known bass players in Latin music. And I play with some of the best musicians in Latin music, and they’re part of my orchestra. We got Monty Montgomery. He also plays with Víctor Manuelle, Fania All-Stars and everybody. And [Willy Trompeta?], William Santiago played with (inaudible) and with [Marina Dión?], many of the [00:44:00] big bands too. I 34 �have, on the piano, Ricky Rodríguez. He directs Lalo Rodríguez’s orchestra. Singing, I have -- on this CD, the new one, it’s Ito Rivera. He used to sing with the Puerto Rican Power, and his brother is Jerry Rivera, the singer that’s out there. JJ: He’s in the band right now? DR: But Ito was famous before Jerry, trust me. Make sure you say that. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, he’s been around. DR: Yeah, Ito was with the Puerto Rican Power. JJ: But Jerry’s his brother? DR: His brother Jerry, yeah. And I have musicians like Milo Orta, Choco Orta’s brother, and I also have musicians like Lester [Ojeda?]. And he used to play with Impacto Crea. I also have Pablo Cardenas. [00:45:00] He’s a master progressionist and altoist. The guys I’m mentioning, these are very, very good musicians. It’s a different style. You know, in Chicago, you play with good musicians locally, but when I came here, I was offered the chance to play with some of the top talents. That’s what I’m working with, some of the top talent here and -- JJ: What are some of the places you’re playing now? DR: Oh, we play everywhere, all around the island. For example, right now, I have something going on with American Health Medicare where I do some stuff during the day so that I’m at different venues all over the island. Next month, for example, I’ll be in Guayama, Salinas. I’ll be in Fajardo, I’ll be in Orocovis, and then Mayagüez. Those are daytime venues. Most of the weekends, I’m at the 35 �Gran Melia Hotel in Rio Grande with a small Latin jazz ensemble. That’s Monty’s group, and I play with them. [00:46:00] And plus, I play with everybody who calls me. I just recorded one tune on Tito Rojas’ new CD. Cut number five is dedicated to his father. He called me to do a bit, so... JJ: And so it was always your ambition to get into music? I mean, why did you start thinking about music? I mean -- DR: I don’t know. (laughs) That’s a good question. I mean, as far as I can remember, I always -- JJ: Because what is the music instrument that you play? DR: I play the tres, but I didn’t start on the tres. I started off on an accordion. The first instrument I ever picked up in my life was an accordion. JJ: And how did you get with that? DR: We lived on Bissell and Armitage, and Don Lulu’s? daughters were taking accordion -- JJ: Don Lulu? DR: Don Lulu. JJ: Lulu? DR: Lulu; that was the owner of the building. His daughters were taking accordion lessons, and [00:47:00] they were teenagers. I was a kid. Now, every time they came home with their accordions, I would start making noise. And then they freaked out because I started playing something, [on the accordian?] I guess. And my dad made me take accordion lessons. My friends would be outside 36 �playing, and I’d be in the kitchen sitting with my dad cooking. “You did it wrong! (laughter) Play it again.” JJ: He was your teacher, or...? DR: Well, he was -- JJ: Your coach. DR: My coach, yeah. He was the one with the whip, (laughter) so that’s what was going on there. Then after that, I had some family members like Ricky and Paolo, my uncle and my cousin. They played guitars and a cuatro, and every time we went to their house, I would grab their instruments. And Ricky had a Mustang. JJ: So when would you go to their house at this -- DR: Every day, almost. JJ: Oh, because I didn’t -- DR: Almost every day, you know. JJ: I was going to say -- DR: Yeah, no, we were raised together [00:48:00] basically. You know, if it wasn’t every day, it was every week. We saw each other three or four times a week. You know, that’s the kind of thing it was, and I would go to his house and grab his instrument. And I mean, they would make me play on the bed because they didn’t want me to drop it. Ricky had a proud, white guitar; a Fender Mustang. It was one of the first ones they had of that white guitar, you know, that Fender Mustang, and he was really proud of that guitar. And I would go grab it. (laughs) I’m banging on that thing, so he decided to teach me a couple chords. And they 37 �taught me a couple chords, and from there on, I went by myself. My brother Edwin, who ended up playing trombone, he taught me a couple chords. He won a contest for something somewhere. JJ: Edwin? DR: Edwin. And the contest winner was going to get some free guitar lessons, so I made him go to class. He didn’t want to go. (laughter) I would make him go to class and then [00:49:00] come home and teach me, “Or I’ll beat you up.” That’s what went on, and he taught me the chords. And that’s exactly what happened. JJ: Okay, your brother Edwin -- DR: Yeah, he’ll remind you of it too if you talk to him. JJ: “Oh, he would beat up everybody back then.” DR: Yeah, he’ll remind you of it too. “Oh, yeah, he used to beat me up if I didn’t teach him the chords.” That’s the way he was, but that’s exactly how I learned how to play. I wanted to learn so bad that I would do whatever it took to learn. JJ: So there’s Edwin and how many else in your family? DR: Everybody at home was musicians. Everybody did something as far as musically. It’s me, Ruth -- JJ: What did Ruth do? DR: Ruth sang. JJ: She sang? DR: Ruth sang, and Junior sings. And -- JJ: You said Ruth with a T, or...? DR: Ruth. 38 �JJ: How would you spell that? DR: R-U-T-H. JJ: T-H, Ruth. DR: Like the Bible stories. JJ: And she sang? What kind of music did she -- DR: (laughs) Ruth used to love Donnie and Marie Osmond. JJ: Really? DR: I’m looking at [00:50:00] you, girl. (laughter) Donnie and Marie Osmond. I mean, really, really big fans of “One Bad Apple.” And my brother, Junior -- Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra. How far can you get from Puerto Rico? (laughter) Nah, he’s a crooner. He’s won karaoke contests singing Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra. JJ: Did he? DR: Yeah, he’s a crooner, man. He’s definitely a crooner. He sounds like Dean Martin. JJ: Does he? Wow. DR: Really good. And me and Edwin and Jesse were the musician-musicians that played. Edwin and Jesse both play trombones. JJ: Edwin and Jesse? DR: Jesse’s still playing. Edwin retired a while ago, but Jesse’s still playing, and I play the tres. JJ: The tres? Okay, but why did you pick the tres? Was that -- 39 �DR: Actually, I had started off on the guitar, and like I said, I started playing many instruments. I played accordion. I played [00:51:00] drums. I played guitar. I played bass. I even tried a little bit of marimba. JJ: Because isn’t the tres Cuban? DR: Yeah, the tres is Cuban, and I tried cuatro -- JJ: So cuatro went bad for you (inaudible)? DR: No, it wasn’t nothing like that. What happened was that when I got into Latin music, salsa, I was hearing an instrument in the background of some of the salsa bands. And I was saying, “But that’s not a cuatro,” because I knew the sound of the cuatro. I said, “Well, what instrument is that,” you know? And Caribe was saying, “No, that’s a cuatro.” I said, “No, that is not a cuatro. That’s something else.” Finally, Albert Martinez, La Justicia Alfie, says, “No, that’s a thing called a tres. It’s a Cuban instrument, and they play it with the salsa bands and stuff like that.” I go, “Yeah? I want to learn how to play that,” because I really liked it. And Caribe gave me one on my 18th birthday, and it was a gift that he had given to someone else that didn’t [00:52:00] do anything with it. So he took it from him and gave it to me. A week later, I was playing all the songs in the band on it. I learned all that literally in one week. I learned all the songs in the band. I wasn’t quote, unquote, “a monster” on the tres, but I was playing the tres in all the songs in the band in one week. It’s something that other musicians couldn’t -- after two years, they’d give it up because they’d get one wrong. I don’t know. It was an instrument that I caught right away, and I understood it immediately. I could tell I knew exactly what it was, and I knew how to play it. I felt it, and that’s why I 40 �ended up on the tres, and thank God. I made a lot of money playing the tres. (laughs) Hang on one second. JJ: Can you remind me -- yeah, let’s wait a second. DR: Yeah, wait one second. Yeah, I -- (break in audio) JJ: And you said in Lincoln Park, that the Young Lords hung out? DR: Lincoln Park. JJ: We’re ready to go, right? M1: [00:53:00] Go ahead. JJ: Okay, if you can tell me -- we were talking about the Young Lords and when the FBI was coming to your house. Can you explain that? DR: Okay, that was in about ’65, ’66, ’67, those years. JJ: This was probably later in ’68 after the Young Lords had the -- DR: Right, after their whole thing -- JJ: It was the -- DR: -- okay? Yeah, man, ’67 or ’68 around there. You’re right. JJ: Yeah, with the -- DR: Okay, what happened was -- I remember getting up to go to school in the mornings, and there were black cars parked in front of the house. The FBI was sitting there in front of the house. The story I had from my folks was that at that time, they were looking for you, the FBI. JJ: For Cha-Cha Jiménez? 41 �DR: For Cha-Cha Jiménez because of the Young Lords thing. They were considering you guys a militant group and all this stuff. You know, you were anti-American for them. They didn’t know that all you were looking for was just to help the [00:54:00] community, so you were screaming that you were anti-American, you know? That’s the way it was in those days, so what happened was -- JJ: But why were they at your house? DR: -- that they knew that you were our family. And my dad offered to let you stay there a few times while you were dodging all -- they knew this, and they called my dad and my mom. They said, “You know, you have one daughter,” my sister Ruth. “It’d be a shame if anything happened to her because Cha-Cha’s living in your house.” JJ: So they were threatening her? DR: Oh, it was a direct threat. It’s -- JJ: I mean, your father tells you this? DR: Yeah, sure, my parents told us that. That was a threat from the FBI. They basically told ’em, “Get him out, or else something might happen to your kids.” That’s basically what they threatened. And I remember we’d go to school and -- JJ: The reason for that -- I was staying there at the time? DR: Exactly. JJ: So they said, you know, “Get him out, or something might happen.” DR: “Get him out, or something bad could happen to your daughter,” and that was [00:55:00] my dad’s pride and joy, Ruth, his only daughter, okay? That was his baby, period. He didn’t have four sons. He had one daughter. (laughter) That’s 42 �what he had, all right? So basically, like I said, we would go to school in the mornings, and they’d be there. When we’d come back, they’d be there. We’d go out to play? They’d be there. We’d leave someplace with the family? They’d follow us. That’s the way it was. We’d get on the bus, and they’d follow the bus. And we’re looking out the back. “There they come.” (laughs) JJ: So you remember seeing them? DR: Yah, all the time. JJ: And you said that -- DR: Oh, I would get in trouble because I was always looking at them. And my mom -“Quit looking,” you know, that kinda stuff, so I would get in trouble constantly. I was always reminded not to look at them. JJ: So this was something that you talked about in your family? DR: Oh, yeah. Well, we didn’t talk about it all the time. We kept it quiet. We talked about it when it had to be talked about when they’d mention it once [00:56:00] in a while, but most of the time, it was like, “Shh!” JJ: But you did talk about it? DR: We did talk about it, yeah. JJ: And so the whole family was aware? DR: Oh, the whole family was aware, yeah. JJ: And they knew this was FBI? DR: The whole family was aware that this was FBI -- JJ: And they knew this was (inaudible)? DR: No, it was nothing. There was no -- 43 �JJ: And how did you know it was FBI? DR: Because they told us it was the FBI. JJ: They said they were FBI? DR: Yeah, and -- JJ: [So that’s not?] -- DR: -- we knew who they were. It said “G-man” on the car; (laughs) government plates, man. “FBI,” so I mean, it was as clear as day that’s what they were there for. JJ: So then what did your parents feel about this? DR: They felt a lot of resentment. They weren’t happy about it. They were angry with you sometimes. JJ: They were angry with me because I gave them that. I was bringing heat. DR: You were bringing heat to the family. JJ: To the family, so -- DR: But at the same time, they didn’t want any beef with you because they knew what you were doing, that you were actually trying to help the community. [00:57:00] And they didn’t agree in some of the ways you went around doing it. (laughs) JJ: So they didn’t agree in the methods, but they agreed in the reasoning. DR: They agreed in the reasoning. Oh, definitely, the reasoning was always fine. Just the methods, they always -- JJ: They knew that there was discrimination. DR: Oh, they knew that. JJ: And -- 44 �DR: I mean, my dad fought for the same reasons. That’s where the differences in the ideologies come in. You went in the political ideology. You went for the neck. You went after aldermen, and you went after this in communities and forced the community in, “Let’s make a big march.” And they went about it quietly trying to bring change through the churches, telling the people, “Do this. Don’t say this. Say that. When you go to a meeting, talk to them like this. Talk to them like that. Represent yourselves in a different form. Maybe we’ll gain their respect.” You were like, “No, we’re going to earn their respect over the other like, ‘No, you’re going to give me your respect!’” They were saying, “We’ll earn [00:58:00] their respect,” and you said, “No, you’re going to give me your respect!” That’s the kind of stuff -- JJ: That was the difference. DR: That was the difference. JJ: There were different tactics, but they were both for -- so the Caballeros de San Juan were also trying to uplift the community? DR: All those organizations, Caballeros de San Juan, Dos Hermanos de la Familia de Dio -- JJ: The Puerto Rican Congress. DR: The Puerto Rican Congress. Let me see. The Trina Davila Center -- there was just so many of ’em. There were a lot of organizations. JJ: They were all trying to uplift the community -- DR: All of ’em. JJ: -- but in their different ways. 45 �DR: In different ways, exactly. JJ: So it was -- DR: They all had their own leaders, they all had their own ideology, but it was basically the same thing: do for the community. JJ: In other words, they knew the community was down. “How can we improve the community?” DR: Exactly. And I remember in the ’60s that they had gotten a lot of the priests -- I remember there was one priest. I’m going to mention his name. He’s not a priest anymore. His name was Father Raymond -- JJ: [00:59:00] Father Raymond? DR: -- and he was one of the first ones that really, really, really wanted to help the Puerto Rican community. I remember him going out in the snow with you guys taking out food to the poor Hispanic families in the community. You’d take boxes and boxes of food, and toys and everything for the kids, because they just didn’t have money. You know, and I remember him doing all that with the Puerto Rican leaders, with the Young Lords, with the Caballeros de San Juan. I remember the dances they’d do in the church. I remember the first gang was not the Young Lords. JJ: What was it? DR: There was one called the Rebels. (laughs) JJ: Oh, the Rebels. That’s right, with Ricky. DR: With Ricky -- JJ: Yeah, Ricky. 46 �DR: -- and that was the first gang that I can remember in Chicago. JJ: That was down by Immaculate Conception. DR: By Immaculate Conception. The first gang that I can remember from the Puerto Rican community was the Rebels in Chicago. A lot of guys are going to say Latin Kings [01:00:00] or the Disciples. No, the Rebels, the Young Lords, Latin Kings, Disciples, and then -- JJ: Because the Rebels were in Lincoln Park, but the Latin Kings were later up at Sheffield, which was kind of -- DR: The Latin Kings, from what I heard, were just a lot of ex-Young Lord members that weren’t happy with you. (laughs) JJ: Oh, really? Later, some of them -- DR: Yeah, and they formed the Latin Kings. That’s what happened there, but basically, that’s what it was. You know, they said you were too communityminded. (laughter) Let’s put it that way. They didn’t want that much heat on them, so that was what’s going on. JJ: Yeah, that was from the neighborhood [that I came back to?]. DR: And I can remember then -- JJ: And then the -- DR: -- back with the Young Lords too in the Sheffield and Armitage area, the church on Dayton and Armitage. JJ: You said it was -- DR: [01:01:00] You had a music room there in the church, and I used to go there with a couple of my buddies. Billy Ramos -- 47 �JJ: Billy Ramos went there? DR: -- and I would go in there, and my brother Edwin, and we would bang on the instruments, man. We would practice, we would learn, and nobody chased us out because, “That’s Cha-Cha’s cousin.” (laughs) JJ: But not only that. One of the reasons that we took over the church was so we could open it up for the neighborhood, so you guys were going -- DR: And on top of that, we got free lunch every day because you guys were giving out free lunches in the summer to all the kids in -- JJ: Free breakfast and that. DR: And I would get like four or five free lunches a day.(laughs) JJ: But like you said, you guys played music with our [instruments?] everywhere? DR: Everywhere. JJ: Everybody didn’t like you there, but they were -- DR: They had a little nurses thing. They’d check the kids out once in a while. I remember that. JJ: At the clinic? DR: At the clinic. I think they came once a year or twice a year. I remember all of those things like that. Those were very important to the Puerto Rican community -- JJ: But then -- DR: -- especially when you guys would give out the shots. Those shots costed money. A lot of [01:02:00] those folks didn’t have the money, and they had to send their kids -- and then that’s when they were starting with these flu shots and 48 �the polio shots and all this stuff. And so the kids had to get the shots before they went to school. They made a new rule -JJ: When you say that -- DR: -- when the Puerto Ricans started going to school. Everybody needed shots. (laughter) I have no idea why. They didn’t need ’em before, but that’s what went on. JJ: And they got us to -- DR: That’s the kind of stuff that we dealt with, and we struggled hard. JJ: Now, part of the music that you used to do for Christmastime and things like that -- DR: Oh, that’s where, actually, we really got started with music. That’s what the folks who started us -- that was our introduction to Jíbaro music, but it wasn’t the families or the Puerto Ricans near me. The families would get together in the holidays, and [01:03:00] they’d go house to house doing a parranda. A parranda is playing typical music from the mountains here in Puerto Rico or from the island, and that’s Aguinaldo, “Mapeye”, things like that. Different styles of Jíbaro music that they were used to hearing almost every day here, but when they went over, they didn’t hear it anymore. And they only heard it once a year when they would get together with the families to -- a parranda is basically a big family party. They all get together. There’s music, and they celebrate together. And then they go all together to the next house and they do the same party there, and then all the members from that family and the other family go to another house. And before the end of the night, you don’t want to receive them because we’re 49 �talking 70, 80 people and a bunch coming into your house. And if you don’t have food, you’re in trouble because [01:04:00] the first thing they ask for is soup, and they’ve been drinking all night. (laughter) And a big thing in the Puerto Rican community is that they give you soup when you’re drinking. I don’t know why. I guess you can’t [beat?] soup and booze, so -JJ: So that’s all the family participating in the -- DR: The whole family; the kids -- JJ: And so -- DR: -- the grandmothers, the grandfathers, the aunts, the uncles, the cousins. Everybody, and you’re waiting for it. And it’s a big thing because they plan it through the whole year. They plan, “Oh, this year, we’re going to have these guys. Oh, who’s going to make the pasteles? Who’s going to buy the lechón? Who’s going to do this,” you know, a big thing. Then they want to have a little gift for all the little kids, you know. The big kids? Water. (laughs) That’s the way it is. JJ: But I mean, the instruments and that -- you’d send them back to -- DR: Well, no. JJ: What about improvising? What is that? DR: Well, you’re talking about trovadores [01:05:00] JJ: (inaudible) DR: (Spanish) [01:05:02] We had plenty of -- JJ: You had that? DR: Oh, yeah, we had that. JJ: You had (Spanish) [01:05:05]? 50 �DR: First of all, our trovadores [01:05:07] was Pablo, Ricky’s father, okay? He was our musician as far as the typical music in the family. Everybody says, “Me,” but that was way back. Pablo was the man. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) DR: Pablo was the boy. And basically, him and his son, Ricky, on the guitar -- and what happened was my dad, my uncle [Woosler?] -- JJ: Woosler? DR: Then there was Andre. These were all trovadores. They sang, okay? Pablo sang, and what they sang -- there was an older man that was a close friend of the family, Don Tomas. JJ: Tomas, yeah. DR: Remember Don Tomas? JJ: I remember him. DR: And [Cornejo?] and Luis Perez. These are the guys that [01:06:00] sang to you about the mountains. What trova is -- they’re singing about their life when they grew up in the countryside in Puerto Rico growing up on a farm, okay? That’s basically what it was, and they talked about their days. And they’ve brung all their -- what they were missing, what they were crying for, they were singing about it in their lyrics in the city. So people would listen because there was real emotional to them. JJ: And they would improvise it? DR: And they would improvise right there. That’s called trovas. And they have, right there -- 51 �JJ: They’d sing a written -- DR: -- nothing written down; improvised right there. JJ: And they sang (Spanish) [01:06:35]. DR: That’s right. JJ: I’d give [my life to hear?] -- DR: They would take a Bible, and they would sing the Bible in trovas from the creation to the exodus. (laughter) Singing the Bible. Try that one. JJ: And then -- DR: This is my family, and not to say there weren’t other Puerto Rican families doing the same thing. [01:07:00] All the Puerto Rican families that were there they were doing the same thing. Everybody was doing the same thing. That’s the way that they remembered their homeland, which is actually a sad situation. Right now, I want to make a comment. That tradition has been lost almost completely in Chicago. Now, it’s almost lost here too in Puerto Rico, but now times are different. Musics are different, but that music lasted for hundreds of years. And all the sudden, we lost it within 30, 40, 50 years. It’s really a shame because, I mean, it lasted for hundreds and hundreds of years. And to have it just disappear in 30, 40 years because of other musics coming out -- I don’t find that right. JJ: So when we were kinda growing up, we were kinda keeping that alive. We were kind of in between our parents and -- DR: Actually, La Solución Orchestra was based on Jíbaro music. It was a salsa band -- 52 �JJ: So [01:08:00] it was salsa. DR: -- but we would turn Jíbaro music into salsa, and that’s what made our band so popular with the people. Everybody was trying to copy salsa bands from Puerto Rico or from New York. La Solución wasn’t trying to do none of that. We did our own thing, and it was basically a typical sound. We invented our own style, and people accepted it immediately. Our arrangements were all originals done by ourselves. We didn’t hire other musicians to come and do our arrangements. We did ’em ourselves. We thought of our own lyrics. We did our own recordings. We did everything. And when we sang, we sang about the community. Our first album was Mi Barrio Se Quemo. In the ’70s, there was a lot of gangbanging going on with the Latin Kings and the Disciples and the Clovers fighting. And they were burning neighborhoods, and there was a lot of fires going on and stuff. And so we dedicated the first album to [01:09:00] my barrio in the city. Mi Barrio Se Quemo-- My town caught fire, so that was dedicated to that situation at that time. JJ: And now that you’re talking about Mi Barrio Se Quemo, there was a lot of arson going on also in the community, but I mean -- DR: That was being done. A lot of people were saying that -- sorry to cut you off -that was being paid for by certain aldermen and the mayor and stuff because they were still trying to push the Puerto Rican community out of the Humboldt Park and Wicker Park area. That’s too close to downtown for them. And if you look at it really on the map, it’s basically part of downtown right now, and that was big money. That’s real estate. 53 �JJ: That was prime real estate. DR: Prime real estate. I’ll give you an example. I kept telling my folks not to sell their home on Richmond and Armitage for the price they asked. When they bought [01:10:00] the house, they paid, I think, 30,000 dollars for this home back in early 1970 or ’71. When they resold the house 12, 14 years later, they sold it for -- I think it was 60,000 dollars. It was a very small profit, but I knew that there were people out there repairing and remodeling all these homes, and selling one apartment for 100,000 dollars. They have a three-story building here, and they sold it for that amount of money. Later on, the person that bought that building one year later sold it for 200,000 dollars. And I’ve heard they’ve sold it quite a few times for quite a bit more, and this is a frame house. And the reason being is because it’s prime real estate. This is, I mean, a hop, skip, and a jump from Downtown Chicago, and that’s why they want -- [01:11:00] it wasn’t personal. I can always tell you this. I can guarantee you Daley was not against the community. He just wanted ’em in a different part of the state as far away as possible, (laughs) but he got no problem with us. JJ: So why would he tell ’em that that -- DR: Why would he do that? JJ: Why did he do it? It doesn’t have to be [the Wicker area?]. DR: Money. It’s all about the greenback. This is the United States of America, and everything here revolves around the greenback. People talk about racism and they talk about this, and you talk about -- this is my personal opinion. JJ: What’s your opinion? 54 �DR: My personal opinion? It’s all about the greenback. I’ll give you the biggest communists in the world and the biggest socialists in the world. I’ll throw a couple million in front of ’em. They are going to be American citizens all the way. (laughter) “Karl who? Karl what?” [01:12:00] This is about money. JJ: “Karl what?” DR: Yeah, this is what it’s all about. I mean, and the reason they fight and they’re arguing with you is because, you know, there’s one less group and more money for you. Remember, most of these organizations are funded by the government. The government gives them a certain amount of money to keep that organization going, so they want to keep it going as long as they can. Why? Because they’re receiving that check. That’s their earnings. That’s what they’re receiving, and I’m going to give you an example of something I don’t like here in Puerto Rico. We have students in Universidad de Puerto Rico en Río Piedras who have been studying for 25 and 30 years. They’ve never held a job. They’re getting a check from the government for the past 25, 30 years monthly to study, and then they finish a course and they take another course. They take another course. Now, they’ve been studying for 25 to 30 years. These are [01:13:00] people who started in college in their twenties. Now, they’re close to 60 years old, and they’re still studying. They’ve never had a job, but they’ve gotten money all their lives through the government to study. JJ: Are you talking about me? DR: No, (laughter) I’m talking about -- JJ: Hey, mister, are you telling me about life? No, I’m just -- 55 �DR: But this is what goes on, and those are things that -- I’m trying to explain it’s about the greenback. JJ: So [through careers?] too? DR: It’s not that they’re doing something for this. The ones that really are doing something -- no, not you. JJ: That’s what I -- DR: You’ve been at this before there was money. (laughs) I can befriend you, but I’m talking about others that came after you, and they’re just there for the money. They’re not doing anything for the community. What are they doing? Tell me one thing they’re doing. JJ: And then they’re really there for a career for themselves? DR: Exactly. That’s not for the -- JJ: And then -- DR: Before, it was for the people, remember? The People’s Park, the people’s power. The People’s this-- [01:14:00] Now, it’s the -- JJ: But what about the students? [It must be kids that are?] -- DR: I got kids. I got a wife and family, you know. JJ: That’s how you see it? DR: That’s the way they see it. They’re not going to jeopardize their job anymore. (laughs) JJ: But you think that Daley saw it as a money thing? DR: Daley did it because of money. That’s the only reason he did it because -- JJ: I thought -- 56 �DR: -- that area was being asked for by the big shots. The old money wanted to rebuild that area, which is what they’re doing actually right now. They just rebuilt that whole area. It’s being all rebuilt, and they’re making that into lofts. And you know what they get for one of those lofts? Four hundred grand. I mean, the factory where my dad used to work -- this was an old factory building. JJ: Which one was this? DR: JB Electronics on Armitage close to Westin. It was an old factory building. Old. They stripped this building down; tore, I mean, the floors and the roof, everything. All they left was the four [01:15:00] walls. And they remodeled it, put new floors - lots. Each one of ’em sold for almost 500,000 dollars. This was an old factory building that they were going to demolish. And they want that area, why? Because they’re five minutes from downtown. They don’t even have to take their cars. You get on the bus, and you’re in Downtown in 10 minutes. You get on the train, you’re probably downtown in five minutes. JJ: You’re on the lake. DR: You’re on the lake, you know, and that is prime real estate. The Puerto Ricans knew where they wanted to move. (laughs) They like the park and they like the beach, and they picked that area. And at that time when they came in, it was ghetto. When the Puerto Ricans first moved there, that was ghetto. The downtown area was the downtown area. The Americans at that time didn’t think they were going to expand, right? JJ: Actually, it was skid row at that time -- DR: That was skid row. 57 �JJ: -- on Madison Square. DR: Jewtown over there on Holliston and Madison. [01:16:00] You know, and the Americans basically failed to realize that they were going to expand. The city was growing. They were shocked when they all the sudden had over 100,000 Puerto Ricans. Plus, the Black population was getting big, and they were all in a small area. And they’re going, “Oh, my God, wait a minute. That’s in a certain area, and all that area’s worth a lot of money.” They saw all this money coming out of there in rents and stuff like that, and all these people were getting rich off the populations that were moving into these old buildings. And then all the sudden, the city started expanding, opening up, getting bigger. Downtown started expanding, and they needed prime territory, and we were right in the middle of it. And that’s what happened, Cha-Cha, and you know it. (laughs) And now if you want to find Puerto Ricans in Chicago, they’re there, but not like before. Most of ’em now are in the suburbs. JJ: What are any final thoughts? DR: Any final thoughts? I can tell you I’m glad you did this. [01:17:00] I’m glad that I was able to say something. There’s a lot of things I would have liked to have said, but -- JJ: Go ahead. DR: No, there’s just not enough time. (laughs) We would need a year. There’s a lot of things that really should be said, you know, but basically, as far as our family, I can tell a lot of people that we have a lot to be proud of. We were one of the first Latino families there -- well, Puerto Rican families, because the Mexicans were 58 �there before us. But one of the first Puerto Rican families there, and we could probably say that we worked with all the major organizations that helped build that community there. We can also probably say that we worked with the best music thing there. We were involved in almost every aspect of the growing of that city and every community action, or musically or school-wise. In any form you want to mention, our family was directly involved in it, so [01:18:00] I can veritably say to you now I’m glad somebody’s going to say something because otherwise, it would’ve been a story that would have never been told. And it needed to be told. And there’s other families, not only ours, that need their story told too. So I’ll mention all of those families like the Ortizes, the Sotos, the Riveras, the Ochoas; you know, the Jiménezes. You know, all of them had complete -- they were the ones that built the city. They were the ones that built the reputations we’re living down now, and for good or worse, that’s what there was. And I don’t think Chicago turned out too bad. Chicago has a lot of stuff to be proud of. Whether they like it or not, (laughter) me whether they like it or not, and a [01:19:00] few other guys whether they like it or not. And believe me, there’s some that like it, and some don’t. But you can see nicely that a lot of people respect us and that they liked us. They also realized and they know who we are, and they’ve never beaten around the bush by saying no. When they talk about us, they know, “That was one of the first families.” They know, “Those guys were involved in everything,” so thanks, Cha-Cha. JJ: No, thank you. DR: Nice meeting you, man. 59 �M1: (inaudible) END OF VIDEO FILE 60 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bf7cb595f6c96a3a4025299c9b695a8b.mp4 7167caaec6273b10c0efa55fdc223462 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry David Rodriguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de David Rodriguez, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 5/12/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_David Title A name given to the resource David Rodriguez video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodriguez, David Description An account of the resource Oral history of David Rodriguez, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 5/12/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/da992deaaef65ddf71e39ad0762d27f0.pdf bdbebc471b4a958d13a1b7a85eb24575 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Antonio (Maloco)” Jiménez Rodríguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/25/2012 Biography and Description Antonio (Maloco) Jiménez Rodríguez has no qualms about admitting that he was the Vice-President of the notorious Hacha Viejas, or Old Hatchets, of the 1950s and 1960s in Chicago, which some believe was the city’s first Puerto Rican gang. It definitely is the most well-known group of that era. The leader, Juan Hacha Vieja, came from Barrio Mula in Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico. He was a World War II veteran with a lot of heart. Several witnesses describe one time in 1982 when a Puerto Rican landlord in Wicker Park pulled out a .32 Colt automatic pistol and pointed it directly at Juan “Hacha Vieja”’s face as Hacha Vieja was walking in a small passageway between two garages, approaching his building. The landlord wanted to embarrass Hacha Vieja and make him run, or at least get scared. But Hacha Vieja just stood there and pulled a .38 snub nose revolver from his pocket and, even while the .32 automatic was being pointed to his face, started loading bullets into his gun. Mr. Jiménez Rodríguez also recalls that the Hacha Viejas had no gang colors. In fact, they had no real gang name and bore little resemblance to the groups of today who sell drugs or hang out on street corners. The Hachas Viejas drank mainly beer or rum at the saloons or at the homes of members in places like the Water Hotel or the social clubs that their own members owned. Juan “Hacha Vieja” had been given that nickname when he was just a boy in Barrio Mula of Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico. At the time he was working for Tio Gabriel Jiménez as a farmhand in a mountain farm that also produced coffee. The name was given to him because “he was �very good with the machete at the farm.” When times were bad economically, he and Tio Gabriel’s sons would move from farming to construction or to other farms, doing odds and ends to survive. Hacha Vieja became close friends with Mr. Jiménez Rodríguez and his other brothers and cousins. After World War II, many of them moved to Chicago, mostly to the La Clark and Lincoln Park areas. The more they located meat packing, factory and restaurant and hotel jobs near Wells Street and Chicago Avenue and around downtown, or at the steel mills south towards Indiana, the more they contacted their friends and family from Aguas Buenas and Caguas. Other Puerto Rican families did the same and pulled entire families from their cities and towns, setting them up in Chicago. Juan “Hacha Vieja” was loved, feared and respected all at once. If he liked you he would turn your last name into “Hacha Vieja” -- Pablo became Pablo Hacha Vieja and José would be José Hacha Vieja. On the weekends when they drank at the Clark Street saloons or by Halsted Street and along Madison. Often they would usually get into a brawl and spend the night in jail for disorderly conduct or loitering. By Monday, they would all be back to work. Mr. Jiménez Rodríguez recalls wanting to get along with everyone, but there were other minority gangs that hated the Puerto Ricans with a passion. They had to get their respect or they would be pushed around and slapped or beaten up. He explains that they had no other choice but to fight, and carve out territory; the police did not defend them. And many times the police would join these other gangs against the Puerto Ricans. By the early 1960s there were three taverns that were owned by the Hacha Viejas: one at La Clark close to Grand Avenue, another on Western, about one or two blocks north of Division, and the third by the Hotel Lincoln on Armitage Avenue and Clark Street. One day Mr. Jiménez Rodríguez remembers coming from the west side club on Western Avenue to the Armitage Avenue and Clark Street Tavern. The Italians and Irish were hiding, waiting for he and his friends. A mob converged on the Hachas Viejas and started beating them with chains and bats. He, Hacha Vieja and some others got cut very badly ending up in the hospital for a couple of months. Still on another battle, they also got cut up by a Mexican gang from Taylor Street near Halsted .It also put them in a hospital. But Mr. Jiménez Rodríguez explains that this is how they learned their lessons, the hard way for not paying attention. They needed to be prepared at all times. As time went on they did less fighting and could just socialize and enjoy a good time. It was no longer just them; more Puerto Ricans were moving in. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df27a23641e7119349dc545ab010bf46.mp4 8dd30633e1da51f1b7a2fa3973818e9e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Antonio “Maloco” Jiménez Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Pandillas--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Veteranos--Relatos personales Pandillas--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Antonio Title A name given to the resource Antonio “Maloco” Jiménez Rodríguez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Antonio Description An account of the resource Antonio “Maloco” Jiménez Rodríguez has no qualms about admitting that he was the Vice-President of the notorious Hacha Viejas, or Old Hatchets, of the 1950s and 1960s in Chicago. He was a World War II veteran with a lot of heart. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Gangs--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Veterans--personal narratives Gangs--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/398132f23a4d0abd7bef4a0a6362ec28.pdf b138cb5c3e547a544f43470d5d52a8dd PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Angel “Sal” del Rivero Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/12/2012 Biography and Description Angel “Sal” Del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field, but he never left Lincoln Park as he traveled to it daily. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young Lords in 1959. The other original members of the Young Lords were all Puerto Rican, including Santos Guzman who moved to Lincoln Park from Philadelphia, Benny Pérez who lived on Halsted, Fermin Pérez (no relation to Benny), and David “Chicken Killer” Rivera whose regular job later was at a meat market. Mr. Rivero’s father was the neighborhood barber who cut hair from their home on Fremont and Bissell Streets, which then crossed each other where they both ended. Mr. Rivero’s brothers improvised a roller coaster ride made from wooden fruit crates that slid down the railing of their back porch stairway, racing down into the backyard until the crates finally hit ground on the cement pavement would glide it on their own. It was exhilarating until the ride ended at the fence. All the neighborhood kids enjoyed it and the Rivero kids made a mint from the nickles they charged for the rides.The first president of the Young Lords was Joe Vicente, who had Italian features. Mr. Jiménez became the last president of several because he was always in and out of jail. Mr. Vicente also lived in the Italian section of Lincoln Park, by De Paul University, on Sheffield and Belden. His cousin, Johnny Trinidad had moved from New York, to Indiana Harbor’s Steel Mill area, and then moved onto 95th and Halsted Streets. Mr. Trinidad always �was free with his opinions, especially before, after, and when he briefly popped into meetings to watch, but he rarely attended any full meeting, saying that he could not because he lived out of the neighborhood. Mr. Rivero recalls these early days, noting that the fact that ethnic youth groups lived in segregated blocks in these early days also played a big difference in their organizing. In 1959, Puerto Ricans were still scattered throughout Lincoln Park and so the Young Lords did not begin from a concentrated hangout but were spread out, trying to carve out their own place within Lincoln Park. For many this meant being targeted by white ethnic youth because they had darker skin, were Puerto Rican, or spoke Spanish. Mr. Rivero recalls the numerous stands the Young Lords made in their early days. As more Latinos and African Americans moved into Lincoln Park, Humbolt Park, Wicker Park, and parts of Lakeview through the 1950s and 1960s, youth began to unite more around national origins. Mr. Rivero describes an encounter where the Young Lords, Latin Eagles, and a whole range of northside Puerto Ricans gangs became involved. The Aristocrats were an established white gang that was led by their only Puerto Rican member, Dulio. They had argued with a Puerto Rican family and had entered into a primarily Puerto Rican housing project called California Terrace, located by Halsted and Barry near Clark Streets and threw bricks through all the windows. A war involving about 400 people began and the white Town Hall policemen hid from view. It lasted an entire week. On one of the days, the Puerto Ricans walked down Barry Street and broke out all the car windows, from Halsted to Sheffield looking for and challenging the Aristocrats in their own territory. On another occasion, a stuffed figure of a person hung by the neck from electrical wires high up in the middle of the street, resembling a lynching. The war ended when both groups met on their own and agreed to stop fighting, to avoid being arrested by the police. Mr. Rivero recalls being one of the war counselors with Mr. Jiménez and helping to resolve the conflict. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr. Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights. �Transcript ANGEL DEL RIVERO: In a day or two then they decided to send us to Korea. So when I went to Korea, I got sent to a missile site. That prompted-- what I understand is that while I was gone, Orlando was the one that wrote me a letter saying that a colonel had visited the YMCA, the group, inquiring about me. The reason the inquiry was being made is I was being sent to a missile site, so I needed to have a clearance, and when they did, they were doing a background check on me and everything else. And so Orlando was like, I didn’t know what it was about, but when I found out about it, I realized what that was about. They made the inquiry and anyway, the point is that I got, because I was being sent to missile site, I got what they call a confidential clearance. At any rate, I spent 13 months [00:01:00] in Korea. The significance of the period that I was in there that I almost got killed. I had a Jeep fall on me. That’s when I busted my back, my ribs on a Jeep accident, right towards the end of my tour of duty. From that coming back, I came back on leave, but my parents decided that I should go to, spend about a couple of weeks in Mexico for vacation. Came back, got sent to the statesides in Washington and from Washington, the state of Washington, and went to Vietnam. Then that’s when I came back and it ended my tour duty in Vietnam. I came back to the stateside, but [00:02:00] Cha-Cha, you’re falling asleep, man. Hey, you want to end the interview because you’re falling asleep? The main reason was because we could not be part of the other groups mean either the Paragons or the Eagles, is that if you’re referring to the area of the gang activity. 1 �JOSE JIMENEZ: Right. So that’s the only main reason. ADR: The main reason mean, obviously I would’ve to say that was the main reason why the Young Lords came into being. JJ: So we wanted to fit in. But what about, okay, so you’re saying that the main reason that we wanted to, from your perspective, become a Young Lord’s gang was because we wanted to fit in with the older guys, but they wouldn’t let us fit in. ADR: Right. JJ: We were too young. But did it also have to do with us getting beaten up by the white gangs? ADR: No, I don’t think because we were getting [00:03:00] jumped or anything like that, no. That would’ve been--no, I don’t see that as a factor at all. As individuals we didn’t-- I think the more strongly purpose, the reason would’ve been the one to fit in with the older groups, we certainly that had no fear of the white groups that existed in the area. I mean, common sense-- common sense dictates, I mean, the difference between other people or groups where gangs evolve or get started and the variables that exist and how that comes to about. But as a group, not really. I think without realizing-- [00:04:00] it’s sort of creating a team. Sometimes teams come into being -- Or I was trying to make another explanation. My perspective, for us, it was like a team that was created much, I mean, I’m making an analogy. Any team that becomes successful and a team becomes successful, obviously you don’t hear it about the ones that don’t become successful. So the analogy that I’m trying to make out of this particular situation is as far as the Young Lords and what later on is represented, was 2 �much in the analogy that I’m talking about that I’m thinking is sort of like with the Bulls, for example. Obviously without Michael Jordan [00:05:00] and other, but it wasn’t just Michael Jordan. The other players that played, that was made up in there with the coach and everything else made through a unique team that ended up winning a lot of titles for the Chicago. I mean, it is the Bulls as they won, and when they broke away, it hasn’t been in Chicago, it hasn’t been duplicated. And so I think that it does when certain things, elements that come into being a can create that kind of environment. So not every team, not everybody’s going to succeed at those particular levels. So, so far as the gang activity, this is what I mean, what the Young Lords represented. The innovations, we didn’t know we were doing anything-- referring to the weapons, for example-- lessons learned. It wasn’t like we sat down and that we needed to continue to carry weapons. When we got caught the first [00:06:00] time with the blackjacks and with the knives in that particular gang fight at Arnold Upper Grade Center, we quickly learned this is not a smart thing to do, to be carrying weapons around so we changed our tactics and improved on it. That made it a lot easier that we could walk around. Somebody stopped the searches. I mean, a police officer pulling us over won’t find any weapon, no reason to be picked up, no reason to be thrown in jail. We didn’t give them the excuse. We didn’t know what we were doing. I mean, the effect, the impact that we were having and we were creating. The other area that I already spoken about is about the ability to, the tactics and learning how to fight, how to take a punch. We didn’t know we were training ourselves for fights. We even thought as that we thought it was a game to play 3 �among each other. Obviously, when we look back on that, for me it makes me realize why is, I mean that when we were fighting, we didn’t think about when we were fighting that we took a punch or not. It was sort [00:07:00] of like second nature to us. We took a punch, like so what, the guy hit me big deal, or that it stung or that it hurt. But because we were already used to that, that was the part without realizing that we were training ourselves, we didn’t know if we were doing that. Years later, we came to realize, I mean, in my part, I came to realize, wait a minute, we trained ourselves to take a hit to be able to attack. We were fighting-the little things that we did. And again, in that particular area of fighting how somebody throws a punch, how to receive the punch. Because when we’re fighting, again, I have to emphasize that in there, that how we learned it wasn’t just taking the hit, but when you’re seeing it, where you going to get it, where you want that impact to hit, you’re not going to avoid the hit, and it had to become second nature. So that we would, in fighting how when somebody would hit and how we get hit sometimes where we leaned, how we moved, all of these things was part of that particular thing that made us, [00:08:00] later on, I mean, it started to make us famous and obviously the thing that we wanted to prove to the Paragons and to the Eagles, that we were just as good as they were. So we wanted to do more damage. And again, all of those little things that were being done in that time helped us to gain that reputation. But the cornerstone, not the-wrong word. The turning point was the fight that I mentioned that, as I said, when Orlando had to fight with the Paragons over the issue, that they wanted to jump the [Black...?] 4 �JJ: Okay, and which, yeah, that was the corner, the turning point at that time. So I think you made a very important point here. You said that a lot of it had to do with fitting in more than in protection. In other words, that we were not afraid of the white gangs. ADR: Or [00:09:00] the Black gangs for that matter? JJ: Or the Black gangs or anybody. It was more like we wanted to fit in and we couldn’t fit in the Black Eagles. They were older or the Paragons. So we had to have our own group, and now we’ve got to show them that we’re even better than they are. So that’s a very important point. ADR: Well, obviously we-JJ: From my perspective, I am going by the routine saying that it was for protection. But actually I agree with you. I think now that you’ve mentioned that, that was more like we wanted our own thing, our own-- ADR: Well, the other area, I mean in the fighting we did-- as far as the fighting, again, how we conducted ourselves. One of the other which has been touched, and I’m retouching the particular area, is the area that we were not constantly [00:10:00] together. That also was a plus side, because it is, as I said internally, there were groups that individuals, individuals that came in thinking we can take over or we can run it, and always coming up against a solid wall of, no, you’re not going to do it. JJ: So how did that work that we were not together all the time? You mean the whole group wasn’t together. ADR: It’s just the way we-- 5 �JJ: But they had little groups. We had little cliques. ADR: It was our lifestyles. I mean, more than anything else, for whatever reasons. For example, obviously, well, not for whatever reasons. I mean, if you take a look at Benny and Fermin, they tended to be in school together. They’re always doing things together. So it was natural for them to go in a particular way. JJ: Okay, so you had one group. That was one group, and then there was-- ADR: The other group. I mean, there were other, a mix of groups [00:11:00] because one of the things I have mentioned earlier, they were not, when I’m talking, not that it’s difficult to remember, but there were a lot of other people. You got other people involved in part of the Young Lords that came in and ended up believing or that throughout the period of time that things were going on. JJ: There were different generations. Again-- ADR: Not so much that there were generations. I would’ve to say that there were individuals, how would I put it? The reflection for me, I mean among ourselves, is that we tended to have a certain people that followed us as a group. So for example, me and Orlando tended to be together, but it wasn’t just me and Orlando. There were other fringes from the newer members that would hang around with us just as much as when you drifted, you drifted with you. We spent time with you, but not as much as, in other words, you tended to drift away from us with other individuals, but [00:12:00] we weren’t-JJ: Everybody went, there were different cliques and everybody-- ADR: Exactly. Different areas and things that were going on. JJ: So that gives me, other people were drifting around too to the different groups. 6 �ADR: And it wasn’t that we didn’t get along or anything. It’s just the way for me, even-JJ: One day, somebody hung around here and another day in another location. ADR: I’m trying to think of it. There was a lot of individuals that had a certain amount of impact. For example, you had Shorty, a Mexican guy. It also had to do with the girlfriends and individuals the way who was with whom and that kind of stuff. The only thing I can explain, I mean if you’re talking from my perspective, is that I just happened to be-- spend more time with Orlando than I did with anybody else because we just tended to naturally drift together. I know I taught him how to drive a car, which was kind of funny so far as, because we had to go steal a car, steal cars in order [00:13:00] to teach him because he wanted to learn how to drive. Remember, I was the only one at the beginning. I was the only one that knew how to drive. The only reason I knew how to drive because my father wanted to wash his car every day or every other day on it that forced me to learn how to drive. My father loved cars and I didn’t, I mean, I didn’t really care for them, but I was the very first one that knew-- out of that whole group that knew how to drive. You had to learn, and you learn actually more quicker than Orlando. Orlando’s wrecked. I don’t have any vehicles. JJ: I learned in a stolen car. We all learned in a stolen car. ADR: He busted up a couple of cars in the process of learning how to drive. JJ: I ate it from (inaudible) too. ADR: And you had an easier time learning how to drive than he did. As I recall, okay. 7 �JJ: So people were drifting from one group to the other group and all over the neighborhood. So [00:14:00] they were in different parts of the neighborhood. Some went to, what is it, the Adams playground? ADR: And also, yeah, but you got to remember how we went home when we went home and things like that. The things. But it was just sort of a, I don’t think that we were any different in terms of that socializing than any other group. And I believe that any other group, there’s a tendency for certain people to hang around together. Within a given group, you have your inner circle of certain individuals hanging together or spending more time with each other than other individuals. And so that’s the way it worked. So there were a lot more gang-- I mean, there was a lot more for me, because I have deference, because when you talk about the fighting that existed at the beginning, what made us, I mean [00:15:00] becoming more noble was for another reason that we drifted out of the neighborhood. So when you’re referring to other areas, we weren’t just hanging around Armitage and Halsted. We’re going up north. We went to that, which now I believe is part of the Latin school where they had the private school that existed back then that we had. I mean, we went-- things to come back to mind that were a lot of different places. The guy that actually got us with the idea to help out that came in, I can only remember his nationality. He was actually a Spaniard, Spanish kid. He was in high school with us that became part of the Young Lords, and they had asked him for help because they knew some of the people that were, which turned out to be the Cuban, I referred to as the Cuban clan, if you will. The individuals that, as I said, that first wave of immigrants that 8 �came to the United States, that the Castro had ousted, Batista, and we had that came here. There was like 10,000, [00:16:00] I believe, that came into the Chicago area at that time, or maybe exactly what the number. But these were well to do people. The children were attending-JJ: We actually had a branch of them up north. ADR: Well, that’s because we helped them. How we ended up going is that they had a fight actually with some Japanese kids, that karate bullshit and all that other stuff we’re going to be, who gives a fuck about karate. We went and beat the crap out of ’em. They were endeared to us because we helped them out on the fight. We went in there and did what we did and beat the shit out of these guys, and then invited us to go up north where they lived. They lived up in Evanston. JJ: They had nice girlfriends. ADR: Beautiful women. So that was part of the, and obviously for girls, I mean, the thing about it is that obviously we were the Young Lords, so we attracted a certain amount of-- women are women, I mean, even back [00:17:00] then, no reality that we had is then we were the Young Lords. So it wasn’t because it was Sal, or it was Cha Cha, I’m going on with a Young Lord, we had the reputation. JJ: What about Young Lordettes? ADR: Huh? JJ: Weren’t there Young Lordettes, ADR: These were pissed off-- The Lordettes was a part of a group of women that were part of us. But you would have to ask, I mean, and this kind of thing. That’s the question that they would need to answer. Obviously they knew-- I can’t believe 9 �that did not aware of what we were doing. And certainly that must have pissed him off at times because we really, at least for my part, and even Orlando, I think, but we didn’t have steady girlfriends, and I don’t think we did it as something that was in our minds. I think it was part of our mentality is that because we were meeting girls all over the place. I mean, when we used to go down Lincoln, [00:18:00] Evanston, the South Side, other areas, we were always constantly meeting women. So it was not like we wanted to be tied down to a particular girl. And me in my particular, I tended to stay away. And then I think it was true for the rest of us. Though, I got to say, you reminded me something about you. You tended to fall in love. You tended to fall in it, and you fell hard. It was like, I got to be with a woman. And it’s like, what the fuck is wrong with Cha-Cha, man? I got all these other damn broads. And then he’s out there-- you used to get heartbroken when you were out with a girl. You wanted to be with her sometimes. Now you’re making me remember certain things. It not that you didn’t want to spend time with us, it’s that you fell in love with the damn broad and you had to be with her all the goddamn time. Like what the fuck is wrong? Leave them alone. Interested. JJ: Why would I want to be in a gang? ADR: The funny part about it, you ended up, how many times? Well, I mean, I’m not trying to get personal, but-JJ: How many divorces, right? ADR: Right. [00:19:00] I don’t-- I mean, I used to not be tied down or anything. JJ: You’re still married to the same woman. 10 �ADR: Exactly. JJ: How long have you been married to the same-- ADR: I don’t-- 43 years. JJ: Forty-three years to the same woman. ADR: That’s the opposite of you. You know what I mean. I don’t understand that. JJ: You made your point. You can rest your truth. ADR: But you did. I mean, you are reminded of certain things where sometimes certain things are missing. It’s coming in there and you’re making me realize that you had something that, I mean, I am kind of, I’m not dwelling on it. I’m just trying to point out that kind of fits a little bit of the puzzle of that why sometimes you weren’t hanging around with me and Orlando or some of the other guys because you did get taken aback when you were with a woman. JJ: You think that could have been because I was going to jail a lot or --? ADR: No, you keep saying it. Jail. It [00:20:00] wasn’t jail. JJ: It wasn’t jail. ADR: You didn’t spend, I mean, you did certain things. It had to do with the women. That’s where you, the thing about that was going on with you. You did. I mean, there’s no doubt that you got picked up more often than the rest of us. Okay. We hardly got, I mean, quite honestly, we hardly got picked up and actually you spent more time with a woman than you did with us because you used to-- if I’m putting, I’m not sure. Did you fell hard for that or you couldn’t? In other words-JJ: I don’t remember. ADR: You were pussy-whipped. I’m sorry. The women. 11 �JJ: No. Probably that I don’t know, but I-- ADR: Okay. JJ: Because I can’t-- I do remember that I would be with one. ADR: Yeah, then you just like had to be with a woman all the time. JJ: (inaudible) woman had a man. And then when they split up. (inaudible) ADR: I recall, I mean, I really can’t be certain, but even I think at the age of 16, you almost got [00:21:00] married. JJ: I know I went to jail for a stabbing over a woman. I did that. Stabbed somebody over a woman. Yeah, I did that. ADR: But remember the fight. You remind me about the fight, about the stabbing that I wasn’t there. That happened up in the north side. JJ: Same high school. ADR: That had to do with a woman. Right. JJ: And I went to jail for it. Yeah, I did six months. ADR: That had to do with a woman. JJ: They wanted to give me seven years. I was lucky. I got six months. ADR: So that’s what I’m referring to. You fell hard for a woman. JJ: I stabbed a guy by five times or something, I got crazy. I was drunk too. Okay. ADR: Yeah. You were jealous. (inaudible) the rest of us. I mean, I reaction. We were going out with somebody and making out. She went out and made out with another guy. Hey-JJ: I wasn’t the only one that was going around in the neighborhood too. Other people were going through that. 12 �ADR: The thing is, we weren’t, I mean, and in particular, I mean what I learned from those things, and not all of us were [00:22:00] the same way. When I had that situation come up with a woman, I just simply would walk away from her. I would not like, “Hey, do you want to go out?” That’s your business. I’m not. And Orlando did the same thing. So later on he could be persuaded by a woman-falling for a woman. JJ: He did that too. I remember he did that too. He fell in love a lot too. ADR: Yeah, he did. Later on. He did. JJ: Later on, later on. You’re right. ADR: Later on when he did-JJ: So we were dealing with issues, different issues. We were dealing with different issues, including with women and women. ADR: Right. The area, there’s a lot more, I mean, at the moment, and you’re calling is that, I’m not remembering, but obviously in so far as the gang fights. JJ: But what about the Young Lordettes, because I want ’em to get it. ADR: The Young Lordettes. I mean, you’re talking about Lynn-JJ: But there was one group, Lynn and Margaret and Sheila [00:23:00] and Edna. ADR: Sheila, right. JJ: And Vita and all those people. What’s her name? Marta or [Ynez?]-- what other women? What about Little Cha-Cha was involved? ADR: I think what it was, you forget. JJ: A little Cha-Cha too, a Mexican girl from the, because we had a group of Mexican women too. 13 �ADR: Right. But the rest of us, some of the people in the group I here, that’s what we differ. We didn’t make a big deal out of it, but we did differ. I know that Orlando and myself, I can’t speak for you, but we didn’t care, in other words, about the Lordettes. Like I said, because of what we were doing and going to different places, but I know that some people in the gang wanted to have the Lordettes. You were one of those individuals. You pushed for that. You wanted to have them. That wasn’t something the rest of, not [00:24:00] some of us that we wanted, we didn’t to us, because remember, we weren’t going out with them. JJ: We were expanding. I wanted to expand. I wanted always to expand. ADR: As a group we appreciated, and it doesn’t mean we didn’t appreciate ’em. We appreciated them, but with the exception, well, we didn’t have the love interest with them. I mean, for some of us, so to us it was in give or take type situation, whether it matter or not. JJ: Now, were these women, were they mostly into gang banging? ADR: No. Not at all. JJ: Not into gang banging at all, right? ADR: No. JJ: So they were more into parties. ADR: They were more into the dances and things, the socializing activity and that. JJ: That’s important because a lot of people think that they’re gang bangers. They’re into drugs and prostitution and all. None of that. ADR: No, no. With us, [00:25:00] it wasn’t anywhere near anything that had to do with anything like that at all. 14 �JJ: So what did it have to do then? ADR: Just the socializing aspects of the dances, activities that we had and that kind of thing. Obviously on their part-JJ: Because later on that became like a stigma for them. As people got to know more about the Young Lords, they thought that the women, the Young Lordettes were prostitutes or whatever. That’s what they thought, and a lot of ’em shied away. ADR: Why would they, when you’re saying something like that, why would they, again, a question. Why would they? JJ: I’m saying that that could have been, it could have been. I don’t have proof. I don’t have that. ADR: I think remember the Black Eagles, though? I can’t recall whether in effect, even the Black Eagles, the women, and the Black Eagles, here’s the difference between us and the Paragons. In the Paragons and the Black Eagles, the women, [00:26:00] I don’t know if they basically had also, they had in other words, a group of women. JJ: They did. They did. ADR: Okay. The difference between them and us, it is obvious and in fact, that some of those, the women ended up being couples, ended up getting married to each other. I would say that in larger, in other words, more members married their own, in other words, club members in both groups. Both the Paragons and the Eagles. JJ: And the Black Eagles. 15 �ADR: Where we in the Young Lords, I really can’t make any connection. JJ: Well, one or two. There’s one or two. ADR: Because even Angie with Poncho, they came together. JJ: (inaudible) and Mary Gladys-- ADR: Was not part of the group. JJ: That was later. She came later. ADR: Yeah. She was not part of the group at all. JJ: Of the Young Lordettes. ADR: Gladys was, what’s his name? Wayne-- Edwin’s sister. JJ: Yeah. That was later. You’re right. ADR: Yeah. Much [00:27:00] later. They had nothing to do. JJ: But what about Ruben Aviles and (inaudible)? That was later, too? ADR: That was later, too. JJ: Okay. That was later too. ADR: There was no, absolutely no. JJ: I mean, they were both Young Lords, but-- ADR: She became later because he was-JJ: But they got together later. They got married later. ADR: Was not, it’s a gang. JJ: Right? It’s a gang. ADR: None of that existed. Not anybody in the group ever married anybody that was part of the Lordettes. 16 �JJ: Well, I had a girl named Cuba. I had a girlfriend named Cuba. We had some girlfriends, though. We did have-- ADR: As girlfriends, as girlfriends to some of us, yes, but not married. Not in a very lasting way. JJ: And do you remember some of the leaders? I remember there was a girl named Vita Beatrice who some of the leaders of the Young Lordettes, Beatrice, Margaret Trinidad, and [00:28:00] Edie, Manuel Ramos’ sister. ADR: Edie-- that was later. But see, that came later. JJ: But I’m saying those were three leaders of the women. Do you know any other ones? Do you know any other women leaders or no? ADR: The what now? JJ: Those were three leaders of the Young Lordettes. There were a couple Young Lordettes groups. There was one-- ADR: Well, actually, you can’t, you have to correct yourself on that. JJ: Halsted and Armitage. There was-- ADR: You can’t, when we became a party, no, I’m not trying to argue with you. From my perspective, from the point that we became a political organization, that’s when Nita came in. That’s when other women that became, they became prominent, but they became prominent as part of being Young Lords, not become Lordettes. JJ: Okay. Now, they were called Young Lords then, but Edie was the leader of the Young Lordettes for a while, and so was Margaret. ADR: It might’ve been during the period I was in the service. 17 �JJ: Yeah, [00:29:00] no, maybe when you were in the service. ADR: Yeah. JJ: They were leaders in Old Town, Edie and Margaret, and then Beatrice was the leader from Halsted and Dickens. We had a group of Young Lordettes there. ADR: Okay. That would’ve been, like I said, during the period that I was out of the country. JJ: Yeah, I remember I was going out with Yoruba. She was a Young Lordette from Halsted and Armitage. ADR: Well, you reminded me of something too, right now as far as the women. There was one real, I don’t remember her name. She was really good looking Puerto Rican girl, and everybody was after her. JJ: That was Beatrice. I think that was Beatrice. ADR: But she was not a Lordette. JJ: No, she was not a Lordette. ADR: She was more to the right, and I think to the, but her brother was one of the guys [00:30:00] that belonged, actually was part of the Paragons. The reason I’m mentioning this is that the brother ended up committing inadvertently-JJ: Oh, Chino. Chino. ADR: The one, Chino killed himself, right. JJ: His sisters were Paragons. Yeah. His sisters were Paragons. ADR: Right. JJ: Yeah. That’s not who I’m talking about. ADR: No, that’s the one I’m talking about. It was after-- 18 �JJ: He was a Young Lords, and his sisters were Paragons. Okay. ADR: But that’s particular, the one, you making me reminded because at that point he made the stupidity to play in the Russian roulette. That’s how he killed himself. And I remember sitting down one time one night and I thought that was real stupid because, and where I sat down one time when they were playing the game, obviously nothing, nobody got killed when I was there, but I know that he ended up doing it again and he killed himself. JJ: Himself. Yeah. ADR: The bullet and ended up killing himself, which messed up the sister, [00:31:00] and that just came to my mind when we were talking about the thing that I just thought about. But as a group, I, during the era, those things we did, we didn’t know what we were doing, that it was playing those particular roles that were setting us up for certain things that ended up, I think helping as far as our interaction into the political process. JJ: I mean, we trusted each other. How did that happen? How do you think that happened? ADR: I think because we started out at a very young age, so that in doing all the activities, we never second guessed each other and what we did, and even [00:32:00] to that point, it’s like with the challenges that were made to people in the group and how we ended up defending each other. JJ: What kind of challenges? ADR: Well, as I said, again, people, for any number of reasons that came into being, I guess you’d have to look at it. I can think of two ways right now, but also to 19 �involve other, might’ve been more than two, but I’m referring to, which I have mentioned a number of times about people trying to take over the group and we’re not successful because we would come together. And the other one would be as individuals when we would end up having fights. For my part, I can remember one time where we took more, you and me would take more processing to some of the things that we did, and as I recall and I have mentioned is we tended [00:33:00] what we had the title because we negotiated the fighting process that when a gang fight would take place, when we would have sit downs with the opposing inside, and we call ourselves the warlords. In other words, we gave ourselves a title that we would sit down with the enemy to make out how we were going to have to fight. Kind of silly, but we used that word and it was usually tended to fall to you and me when we did those things. JJ: So that meant that there had to be a lot of trust. ADR: Well, I’m getting to that about the trust and things that happened. I remember Santos Guzman, one time I had proposed something that I wanted to do. I remember the recalling Orlando and myself were ones that basically were, if you want to call, started the Young [00:34:00] Lords, they were instrumental in creating what came the Young Lords. Santos wanted to be the leader. I mean, I’m moving kind of fast forward to make-JJ: That’s your perspective, because there was other people that-- ADR: Yes, there were, but I’m refer to in clarifying part seven people originated. Well, I’m not trying to take credit in the way that you’re implying. JJ: I’m saying that’s your perspective in this one. 20 �ADR: No, well, I mean, I’m trying to do this. My perspective, what I would say is that if there hadn’t had been-- hadn’t been an Orlando. JJ: Oh, definitely. ADR: No Young Lords would’ve existed in their self. JJ: Orlando. Orlando founded the gang. ADR: Huh? JJ: Orlando founded the gang, the Young Lords. I mean, Orlando to me is the one that started the Young Lords. That’s the way I look at it. ADR: No. JJ: And then he got us all together, and I agree that you and him. ADR: Me and Orlando were the ones that got together. JJ: You and him did hang around together a lot. You and him did hang around together. ADR: It was me and Orlando, then (inaudible). JJ: But I hung around together with him too. I mean, he lived [00:35:00] right. ADR: If his brother, we put it to this way, there wouldn’t have been any Young Lords. If his brother hadn’t gone into a fight and I hadn’t been there to defend him, that would’ve meant that me and Orlando would’ve never become friends. Now, what would’ve happened, we can speculate all you want, but the creation of the Young Lords, when me and Orlando got together that we needed to have a group of our own. That was our idea. Orlando could tell you the same as much as I’m telling. If me and Orlando had not become friends and sat down, we have to have our own group. 21 �JJ: Me and Orlando were getting ready to fight each other at one point. Me and Orlando, this guy was going to give a watermelon to whoever won to fight between me and Orlando. That’s how me and him met. That’s how I met Orlando. We were supposed to fight over a watermelon. ADR: [00:36:00] Over the what? JJ: This older guy didn’t like me and didn’t like Orlando, and he wanted us fighting, and he said, he offered to buy us a watermelon, whoever won, this was on right there on Dayton and Willow. This is when I first met Orlando. ADR: Orlando was hanging around. JJ: But I’m saying he was like that with different people. He would fight different people and then he would respect them after they fought. So that’s how I’m saying. That’s how me and him met. That doesn’t mean that we decided on the Young Lords then he called me to a meeting. He’s the one that called me. ADR: Well, that’s what I’m trying to tell you. Look. JJ: What I’m saying, Orlando was hanging was a leader and everybody had a relationship with him. ADR: No, you got it wrong. I’m telling you, your interpretation of facts is-- On Freeman, there was a club at the corner, and basically [00:37:00] everybody was considered to be part of that particular club that went and signed in. As I said, Orlando during the, I’m talking referring to the evening, Orlando used to go around the area and the same thing as me. I mean, as far as I remember, and the end there, you were not around in the initial process. I’m talking the initial process before the, we even had the Egyptian Lords before there was any 22 �creation of that. The reason that came about it, it wasn’t like we sat down immediately and decided to do this is what I’m trying to point out to you. What happened was that when I had the fight and Orlando had come over, when he found out about it, he started hanging in the corner. The following day he said we need to have this around. He started hanging around on Fremont because he didn’t live there. We were going to the same school at that point, it wasn’t like, hold on. We had friends, the group of kids, those that lived on Bissell and Freeman, the congregation, [00:38:00] we had a group, a gang we called ourselves the Dayton Boys, you’re forgetting about that. They were the ones that I meant that I talking about where I ended up having a fight with one of ’em was trying to take my bike. The Dayton Boys hung around Dayton and Armitage. That was their corner at that time. JJ: That’s correct. ADR: It was an Italian place that used to-JJ: That’s where he broke his arm. ADR: Right. I’m breaking it down. So they’re over here on that corner where they hung around. The younger kids, we were the younger ones, much younger. They were hanging around at the end of Fremont, and what would be, whatever the name of that side street that led into the tunnel that you would go to go to when we went to Mulligan School in the morning, to the elementary school. But on Bissell, not on Bissell, on Fremont there was that storefront that was considered our (inaudible). There was also a candy store that was typical in that area of having your nickel and dime family owned businesses. [00:39:00] There 23 �were actually two. There were three businesses. The club, another small storefront from a house that was being run by typically older people, and one immediately across from there. We used to have gangs. We used to play with the girls. We always wanted to make out. I mean big (inaudible) as we were growing up and liking girls, you reminded me of something because we always wanted to make out. The big thing with, I mean, it wasn’t like we got the Playboy magazine or we had all these pornography or things that you see today. And you’re forgetting that at that time, I would remind people, girls used to wear scarfs all the time, and I actually started a stupid little game with one of the girls that we liked, the girls who we wanted to kiss, used to have the sleepover sometimes, the pajama parties. Orlando was hanging around at that point after the fight, he was hanging around with me because we knew the same people. It wasn’t because he was hanging around with me, but we were hanging around within the same group. Mineo, Sal Mineo became [00:40:00] kind of drifted into our group. For whatever reason, he was the much older, but he drifted into this particular group. From that was what led into the creation of wanting to have the gang. So that’s what I’m saying. If Orlando and myself had never gotten together, you would not have had, I don’t believe that there would’ve been some kind of a gang, maybe, I don’t know what would’ve happened, but this is what occurred. And we used to have a game that he’ll remind you, I’m going into the gang. I took one of the girls, some of us would kind of pair off into some of the girls, and I still remember her name, Billie May. Okay, Billie May, like I said, they had those guys, and one of the games we used to play around, because either 24 �we used to play the bottle, we roll in the bottle, so we get to kiss the girl, which is a big deal when we were kids. I ended up taking one of the scarfs away from Billie that she had said on her scarf, and she says, I want give it back. I said, yeah, but you got [00:41:00] to have to give me a kiss. So one of those things, she says, okay, and then we started and it became again, all the girls always said, ready. We started playing that game every day that we would go around trying to take the scarfs away from ’em, and then in order to give ’em back, they had to give us a kiss. So it became a game that in a natural process. All of that was what we were getting along. You asked me that. I wasn’t able to answer what I’m talking about, that we didn’t feel that we fit it in, and that’s where somehow because of maybe things that were taking place, we really didn’t felt remember close because the Dayton Boys were the older brothers of some of the individuals that we were hanging around with. I remember one guy named Jack, there’s another one that was the son of the father that owned the, on Armitage and Halsted that owned the hotdog stand. And I remember getting one time because of the curfew getting picked up [00:42:00] and comments that were made where they did took me home saying kids in there, but with the parents that maybe my kid ought to be hanging with somebody else because too many Hispanics are coming in into the neighborhood and that kind of thing. Me and Orlando, not in great detail, we kind of briefly kind of discussed that. We didn’t feel that-- in part because Orlando, you got to remember, you’re forgetting so about Orlando, but two characteristics that we both had and we still have. We were not afraid to fight. We reacted. If somebody challenged us, we jumped on 25 �it. We didn’t think about it. It was second nature to us. We would immediately go into a fight. Maybe you might call us quick tempered, but we had [00:43:00] that characteristic that we would fight back. He didn’t care who it was or how big the guy was. We didn’t allow ourselves to be pushed around. Now, I have to admit, sometimes that’s not good to quickly react in this kind of a situation, but that what led into the idea along with Mineo that we discussed with Sal Mineo that we discussed with him about having our own group. That led to further things. Now how you got involved-JJ: One way was that I had met Orlando before. ADR: You might have, I’m not denying that. JJ: Orlando, Orlando went to my mother’s catechism classes. My mother had catechism classes right in her house, the neighborhood kids, the loco, the crazy ones, would go there to these catechism classes. They were public school kids and she had ’em make their first communion. Orlando was one of those people, [00:44:00] and so I met him there. I met him there at that time. So that’s one. The other thing you mentioned, Mineo. Me and Mineo had been in the same gang at Franklin School over by Cabrini Green, the housing project. I had met him there before he moved more into Lincoln Park. So I had met him there like two or three years before he moved into Lincoln Park. Now you’re telling me he drifted with you guys. I agree, because I think the first fight was the Dayton Street Boys and I wasn’t there for that first fight because Orlando-- ADR: Well, it wasn’t a fight, wasn’t, as I said, nobody was hanging around. We weren’t hanging around together. What happened is that I pointed it out to you, maybe 26 �I’m not explaining correctly. You guys was at school. The fight got started during, in the, probably at lunchtime. JJ: so you guys did have fights because that was still at Saint Teresa’s. ADR: Right. JJ: So I came into, at the end of the day, I came into the Young Lords when they [00:45:00] had the first meeting. ADR: Right. JJ: But I was still-- ADR: But that fight. JJ: But you guys had a couple of fights before I got into it. ADR: Well, what I’m trying to say is that the way the thing occurred, revisiting that particular thing. Lupe, get whatever argument or however it came out to be, it starts at noon, and in order not to get into any trouble with school or anything else, it’s like, we’ll meet after school for the fight. Okay. I know that a fight’s going to take place. Lupe’s going to fight this guy. All right, so then I’m there. JJ: How old were you then? ADR: Ten, 12 years old, or 12, probably 12 years old. Probably 12 years old. So I’m there and there were other (inaudible), the other kids from school, knowing that from the class, I mean, people were asking from the school itself if there’s going to be a fight, but you’re forgetting something that I-- not that you’re forgetting. [00:46:00] I need (inaudible) that, remember Orlando came from a large family of brothers and sisters, actually more on the brother’s side. So Lupe among the boys was the youngest one at that time. I don’t know if the family ended up 27 �having any other boys, but at that point, Lupe was the youngest. Then came Orlando. So Lupe and Orlando, are like one year apart, and then it was Hector. Hector ended up dying a couple of years later of a heart attack. Now, I actually got along better during the period that I ended, because Hector was at school and he was older, I don’t know, maybe two years older. I’m not sure I can recall that. It was probably two years older, or I would’ve to say probably two years older than Orlando. And I actually got along better with him than I did with Orlando. As I said, my initial contact with Orlando is we didn’t get along at all. And maybe, like I said, it’s got something to do with our character [00:47:00] that we were prone to react to each other immediately and not taking it, whatever. So when the fight, as I said, Lupe’s going to have the fight, so we went out there. We were out there. I know Hector came and Hector now, if I’m correctly recalling, and I was already fighting because what happened, Hector showed up. Orlando had not shown up at that point because he didn’t know his brother was going to have a fight that somebody must have ran or something in and said, your brother’s having a fight. So what happened is I said, the guy had either knocked down Lupe, which at that point, or push him or he was losing the fight. At that point, I jumped in. I knew that Lupe was going to get his ass kicked, and I wasn’t going to let that happen. At that point, my reaction, no, not because I wanted him to do this, was my friend. Okay, this was my best buddy and I wasn’t about to let him get his ass kicked. So my reaction was I took it immediately, jumped in and [00:48:00] started hitting the other guy and went on with, we continued to have a-- I ended up beating the crap out of the guy, maybe 28 �because I took him by surprise. I’m not going to try to take credit as a badass or anything because as I said, I did jump in. He wasn’t expecting that. And maybe I have the initial initiative and being able to start hitting him quicker than he could withstand. So I mean, sometimes that happens in the fight, not because we happen to be badasses. It’s just the surprise attack that things occurred. But when Orlando showed up, the fight was over already. And when Orlando’s there, I know that Hector was there, and then he came with Lupe what had happened, Orlando took a different attitude towards me. He came and said, thank you for basically saying, thanks for helping my brother. And it was not no big deal, nothing. No big deal was made out of that or anything other than that. But then the gradualness, remember I don’t know timetable of what happened. [00:49:00] I know that then he started hanging around in the area that I was, and again, not because of me, I think he started hanging around there because in drifting, wherever you claim that he was at, I don’t know, but I know that in the area it was just down the block. When we were in there, he was no more different than I was from my house, from Fremont, which I was closer to. JJ: Where were you living at? What address were you living in? What address were you living in? ADR: Well, the house still stands, I don’t know. I’m forgetting the number right now. JJ: I lived at 1909 Fremont. ADR: Fremont and Armitage, I was probably a quarter. JJ: So where did you live? I lived at 1909 Fremont and 1604 or something, 1600 Dayton. We lived near North Avenue and Dayton. Then we lived near Dayton 29 �and Willow, and then we moved to 1909 Freemont. [00:50:00] And then we went to 2117 Bissell. ADR: Well, on Fremont when I lived. JJ: So where did you live? Where did you live? ADR: I lived over at that time, the period of time we didn’t tend to move around. I was on Fremont, which is a couple of houses down, a red Victorian home. JJ: By Wisconsin? By Wisconsin? ADR: No, near Armitage. JJ: Okay. So that was right there. ADR: Armitage almost closer. JJ: I was half a block down? We were on the same block. ADR: Less than a half a block. Okay, okay. Okay. Orlando was on Bissell. JJ: Bissell, yeah. ADR: Okay. And he was almost all the way down. Almost all the way down. So the distance for him, like me to walk down to the corner, if you said that, this is Wisconsin, that street-JJ: I lived near Wisconsin. I lived near Wisconsin. He lived near Willow-- ADR: Well, the point I’m trying to make is that-JJ: Before that I lived at Dayton and Willow. So we all lived there. We were all from that same area. ADR: But again, what I’m pointing out to you is when we were met [00:51:00] at that age in time, all we did is we would go to that corner. I mean, if I came down from 30 �my house after eating and he would leave this house as I’m eating, and when we came in, the group of people-JJ: I didn’t hang around with Orlando at that time. ADR: I know, I know that. That’s what I’m talking. JJ: I think you were hanging around with him. ADR: Right, we congregated. And what I’m trying to point out to you, we congregated and this-JJ: We were all in the same area. We just-- ADR: You lived, but you guys were not, and as I said, we’re only half block away. We not, well, I’m trying to be more specific because now-- Fermin and Benny. JJ: Where did they live? ADR: They lived, they both lived on Bissell. JJ: They lived on Bissell too? No, on Halsted. ADR: No, no, no, no. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Benny lived on Bissell, closer, almost parallel to me. But he was on Bissell, closer to Armitage on Bissell. JJ: Okay. I know later on they lived on Halsted. ADR: And actually we might’ve been living back to back because he lived in the building. [00:52:00] JJ: So we’re only like a half a block away. ADR: I can pinpoint it. I’m going to say Benny lived on Bissell, it would’ve been the east side of Bissell Street, close to Armitage. I lived on Fremont, but on the west side of Fremont. Again, close to Armitage. JJ: I didn’t even know that. I didn’t know that. 31 �ADR: Fermin, okay, Fermin lived on Clifton. JJ: I thought you always lived near Lakeview in (inaudible). That’s good. I didn’t know that. ADR: So, and Fermin was in Clifton. JJ: Okay. Oh yeah. Fermin was further. ADR: But the friendship that developed between from the very beginning was that Benny and Benny and Fermin hung around together. So all I know is that when we hung around together, Orlando and myself, within the group that I’m talking over here, Benny was not around. Okay. Neither was Fermin. [00:53:00] But we knew each other from school. In other words, the attending classes in there, that’s where we tended to know each other. JJ: David Rivera lived on Fremont. ADR: David Rivera comes much later. JJ: I know, but David Rivera is Orlando’s cousin. ADR: Correct. Well, I mean, might be-JJ: His cousin. ADR: But he comes later. He comes later. JJ: I know, but what I’m saying is these are the Young Lords original founders. ADR: Yes. JJ: And we’re all living in the same area. ADR: Right. He comes in part later on. But the original, in other words, at the very beginning-JJ: You were hanging early with Orlando. You were hanging. 32 �ADR: Before that (inaudible) it was, and he comes later. JJ: Stipulate today, I’ll stipulate today. ADR: Well, the point I’m trying to make, you’re an attorney. So when you’re telling me who started the Young Lords, I mean that’s what we always said. The two guys that started the Young Lords was Orlando. JJ: I won’t stipulate to that completely. ADR: Okay. JJ: I won’t stipulate to that completely. But I say that you hung around with Orlando. I [00:54:00] think that the meeting took place in Arnold’s with the seven founders and I think the Young Lords came (inaudible) at least he’s the one that recruited me. ADR: Well, let me put it this way. You can’t have-JJ: He recruited me. You might’ve been together. But what I’m saying, he recruited me. So I looked at him as the founder. But if you and him were together, that’s fine. That’s fine. I think we were all the original founders. ADR: Wait, I ask you something, see what you’re forgetting. Are we forgetting another individual? JJ: Are you saying that you founded the -- ADR: Who was the first again, who was the first president of the Young Lords? JJ: We said there was the first person because Orlando didn’t want it. I was voting for Orlando, but he didn’t want it. 33 �ADR: So there was never any doubt about Vicentes becoming, let me, I’m going to put you on the spot on this one. I’m going to put you on the spot on. Where did the name the Young Lords evolve from? Who suggested the name? JJ: I [00:55:00] know that we were talking there and there was some group in New York called the Majestic Lords, and then they were also the Vice Lords. ADR: The one that suggested was Vicentes’ cousin and one of the little-JJ: He had come, he had lived in New York. Okay. ADR: He’s the one that suggested. JJ: But am I correct about the Majestic Lords? ADR: Okay. But this is much later. I mean, when I’m setting in the timetable, this takes place later. Not at the point. I’m not going back in there. I’m not-JJ: I wasn’t voting (inaudible). That’s that. I agree with everything. Well, I was agreeing with-- ADR: What I’m trying to tell in here. You can’t have one thing without the other that would’ve ended up producing what it produced. Okay. That’s all I’m trying to point out. Okay. JJ: He was Joey-- ADR: Which (inaudible) which, wait a, hold on. JJ: He was our first president, right? ADR: Wait a minute. JJ: Where did the meeting take place? [00:56:00] Now I ask you. ADR: At the Arnold Upper Grade Center. JJ: That’s where the meeting took place. 34 �ADR: That’s where we had the meeting. So that’s where, not at the YMCA. We did not have no meeting. JJ: Arnold Upper Grade Center is where we selected the name Young Lords. ADR: Yes. JJ: And that’s where we became Young Lords. ADR: Yes. JJ: And that’s where we had the seven original members. ADR: That’s where we had the initial meeting. We had the meeting and all that under. JJ: What date was that? Was that fall, summer? ADR: I can’t, I mean, I know it had to have been warm weather. JJ: Spring probably. Probably the spring. Was it the school or after? ADR: Right. But the point is that that leads to the point that you asked the other question much later. Remember among the group, I’m the only Mexican like, and Guzman, at that time, at the very beginning, no, Vicentes is the leader. We’d chosen him as the leader. JJ: And I think we chose him because looked Italian. But he was-- ADR: [00:57:00] Wait a minute, we chose him. We chose Vicentes as the leader. We then basically, not basically, as we started to grow there were other suggestions. You had made some certain suggestions. I don’t recall what it was. JJ: They didn’t listen to me anyway. ADR: No, no. Listen, wait, had no, you’re forgetting about something that occurred. You weren’t there because as I said you were in another school. JJ: Okay. 35 �ADR: What happened was that I had suggested something at that point, just like the other feelings I had. Remember I’m the Mexican, I didn’t feel, this is like at the beginning because Guzman was-JJ: Were we making a big issue that you were Mexican? ADR: No, no. Let me finish. JJ: You were all gang bangers. ADR: No, no. Let me finish. Let me finish. JJ: Alright. Okay. ADR: I had made a suggestion on something. So Orlando, well, his attitude was, [00:58:00] if that’s what you want, fine. So I had gotten into an [inferment?] at that point he suggested, in other words, in other words, there was some question as to what I wanted. I can’t recall what the issue was. But really what it came down is to the trust that evolved, that ended up evolving from ourselves. So at that point, Orlando didn’t give one way or other, he didn’t give a shit. And he said, well, that’s what you want, whatever. I mean, the attitude that he took in so many ways that responded to it, I felt kind of out place at that point. So really this is when I was going to me, in my mind, I was going to quit. Okay? So the next day in school, Fermin and Benny and then Orlando, he said, you know what? In other words, I think what they did that they talked among themselves and said, if this is what you want, [00:59:00] you’re going to have it. Because it is like, we’re brothers. So Guzman was opposing what I wanted to do. And then he comes back, he was all fucking pissed off because the group, in other words, went against him. And the fact that I was Mexican played a role because he would 36 �say, “He’s a fucking Mexican. I’m Puerto Rican. Why are you guys backing a Mexican?” JJ: Because he came-- ADR: Wait, hold on, I’m not finished. JJ: --he came from Philadelphia. ADR: So then as we were in school, remember Guzman had dropped a grade below. He was actually a year older but because when he came from wherever he came from-JJ: (inaudible) ADR: He did, he then-JJ: But nobody paid attention to him. ADR: --he dropped me. I was in the bathroom and he made a remark to me about, “You’re going to get your fucking way,” whatever. And I walked away from him. I mean fuck it, whatever. And I made the mistake when we were in the, we had come out of the gym and I went into the bathroom and I had [01:00:00] going down to wash my face and motherfucker came, and yeah, on the back, I hit me in the neck and then hit my head. JJ: And you’re still worried about that? ADR: Well, I turned around and I-JJ: You still feel guilty about that? So what? ADR: No, let me finish. So I turned around and started fighting him. So when the teachers walked in, I mean, we were considered to be going into battle. JJ: So you fought him. You fought him. Right. So what. 37 �ADR: What I did is I turned around and I squeezed-- because the only thing I could do was squeeze his fucking balls. JJ: I won’t forget him. ADR: No, you asked the question. You got to finish this. So then no, John had me in a headlock in there, and the teachers walk in and they heard that what had happened. I mean, they come in there and obviously they broke us apart. And then I’m walking around but because he hit me, I hit this outside of, my face was red. (inaudible) Everybody -- (inaudible). So then at that point I’m like, I’m not fucking, because we were going to have a fight. So [01:01:00] then we went out and I mean, it must have been like the whole school (inaudible) going to have it out. So we go across the street into the alley before this is when they turned around and I said, “Fair is fair,” in my mind, the son of a bitch. I guess you don’t want me to swear, but I’m thinking this motherfucker jumping from behind. Right. JJ: He, he stole on you. Right. ADR: So what I did, as he got near me, I kicked him on the balls as hard as I could. JJ: Paralyze him. ADR: And then I went at him and all he could do, because he was (inaudible), he grabbed me and he could hurt me. Man, I’m pounding the shit out of him on the face, because I had my other hand free. And I mean, it was a big, big deal. But he made a technical mistake because in the terms of the (inaudible) as fighters, I was not Orlando. So then he had to live up in [01:02:00] there that Sal almost beat the shit out of you. And he could complain. But the mother-- that I kicked him on the balls because the point is you dropped me from-- you started, you 38 �broke the rule. So there was nothing for me to honor to treat you differently giving you a fair fight. When he jumped me on the back, he broke the rules. JJ: He jumped a Young Lord. ADR: And he gave me the right. JJ: He jumped a Young Lord, which he wasn’t supposed-- ADR: Well, not so much I was a Young Lord but that broke the, that to me was, that solidified our friendship as the original Young Lords that somehow perhaps I think was that we would stick together. No matter what happened to any of us, we would stick for each other because then afterwards, anything that would happen to any of the among ourselves, we always reacted. We reacted to what happened. As soon as, like I said, I can go back. The thing with the Paragons, all I can tell you what I saw and what I knew, what happened that night. I know that I keep emphasizing, took four of the Paragons down. You mentioned [01:03:00] there was another fight. I don’t, I mean not. But I know damn well that night. And he took, knocked down Crazy Johnny twice, knocked him out practically. I’m not saying he put him out unconscious or anything like that, but knocked him down with the punches. The punches took Crazy Johnny down. And just as much as that kind of thing, Santos, his reputation of being the baddest son of a bitch no longer worked. Years later, wait a minute, years later, I had another fight with Santos. Same thing. We were this, when we used to hang around on Armitage, what they call from the song, that restaurant that was owned by a Mexican couple, Sugar Shack. JJ: Oh, the Sugar Shack. Yeah. 39 �ADR: You remember the Sugar Shack? Okay. The Sugar Shack. We were in there. That’s where we crazy-- met Irish. JJ: Where was the Sugar Shack at? Where was the Sugar Shack at? That was more-- ADR: Close to across the street from where the [01:04:00] fire station’s at Larrabee, it would’ve been on Armitage west of, almost immediately west of Larrabee. JJ: Okay, okay. ADR: But again, some other week, whatever it was, I had it out again with Santos. Now, the funny thing about this fight now was, remember by that time we used to have the Cuban with the color Cuban high heel, they have boot that we were wearing at that time. So I go out. At that point it was like, okay, let’s take it outside. The fight got started with an argument I had with Santos, and let’s take it outside. We went outside and started fighting, and this time it was a fist fight. But I remember that in throwing a punch at him, or I ended up, because I was wearing, the shoes that I was wearing wasn’t conductive for a fight. It wasn’t very smart of me. But anyway, the point is that I slipped and I fell, and before Santos could react [01:05:00] to come at me, Orlando jumped in and then took over and it started pounding on Santos. So Santos was forced to fight Orlando because Orlando basically, no, he’s not going to, and he took him out and beat the shit out of Santos. After that, Santos completely drifted away from us because we had totally embarrassed his ass. He had wanted to be, I don’t know what reason they didn’t let him become, because he was maybe too boisterous or whatever. He originally wanted to be part of the Black Eagles. They didn’t let 40 �him. That’s why he became part of us. And he thought, well, I’m going to run the gang because I’m the older guy here and all this and that. It didn’t work. So at the very beginning in the takeover, we would’ve, to give the credit to Santos would’ve been the first person that ever tried to take the Young Lords, control of the Young Lords that didn’t succeed. Then later on, as I said, as we started growing in reputation and things, we talked. JJ: [01:06:00] So you’re saying the original seven kind kept the group together. So the original seven always kept the group together. ADR: Right. JJ: Is that what you’re saying? ADR: I mean, I think that what I’m reflecting on is when you asked the question about the trust. JJ: The trust, right. ADR: Okay. You used the word trust. I’m not sure that that’s the correct, I’m not debating the word. I’m just, we’re using, but I think the trust in there, what brought us together to create that individual-- I’m not arguing the word, the word trust, but I think there might be another word that gave us that cohesiveness, that if anybody challenged that particular group in it. That group was expanded to include Ralph and some of the individuals that became part of, in other words, they became part, in other words, the initial group expanded not by large numbers, but by small numbers expanded beyond the seven. JJ: Right, right, right. 41 �ADR: Okay. In other words, the challenge [01:07:00] though, it can be debated because in talking to Orlando in the future, I mean what happened later on is to how that trust was created. All I can say is that in the years, there were times that Orlando would ask me, I need you here, and I would react. I didn’t have to ask twice, what it was about or what it involved. I simply was there. JJ: That’s what I’m saying. That’s what we did. We did do that with the trust. ADR: Okay. That’s what I mean. I mean, the point is that the thing with New York, not that we were pissed off at you or anything. You were out there and it’s like, Orlando, Sal, you got to stop Andre. JJ: Right. ADR: He said, I got to go. He said, because I was going to go to the meeting, I was going to go there. And he said, no. He said, because he tell me, I don’t examine the exact words, but he says, no, you got to deal with Andre because Andre wants to do something. [01:08:00] And he says, I’ll take the meeting. I says, I’ll deal with what’s got to be dealt over there. But he said, you got to get him out of this mentality. Basically what he told me. So I didn’t debate the issue. I just said, okay, that’s what we need to do. This is how we’re going to handle it. JJ: You’re talking about the split between the Chicago Young Lords and the New York Young Lords. ADR: The what now? JJ: The split between the Chicago Young Lords and the New York Young Lords. Andre wanted to do something. ADR: What do I remember about the split? 42 �JJ: No, no, I’m saying, are you telling-- I’m just saying this is what you’re talking about, right? You’re talking about the split. ADR: Yeah. JJ: And then Andre wanted to do something. ADR: Yes. JJ: Okay. ADR: Exactly. JJ: He didn’t agree with it so he wanted to do something but Orlando and you stopped it. That’s what you’re saying. ADR: Well, what happened was, what actually happened is that Andre had approached Orlando on what he [01:09:00] wanted to do. JJ: Okay. ADR: Okay. Orlando immediately realized that that wasn’t a good idea. JJ: Right because we were respecting, Orlando knew that I was meeting with them and we were respecting, they were our guests. They were Young Lords too. I look at ’em as Young Lords. ADR: Well, there were certain things that we already were-- at the point the thing-- the way it came down, they were already aware of certain things that were taking place, and quite honestly, not all of us. JJ: And that was not a gang fight. We were not gangbanging. ADR: It was not gang fight. Nobody at that point, quite honestly-JJ: We were political. We’re not-- 43 �ADR: It was political, but we were concerned about you giving in to what they wanted to do. Okay? JJ: Right. ADR: So in essence, I can’t find, in other words, we didn’t, I don’t want to use the word trust. I’m being [01:10:00] cordial here. The point is that we were-- there were doubts as to what you were going to do. In other words, we weren’t sure that you were going to act in our best interest. And so the point was, the reason Orlando wanted to make sure he was at the meeting was because he wanted to control you. Make sure that you won’t do anything-- in other words, concede anything or give anything into New York. That was really why he, instead of him, he could have said, I’ll go deal with Andre. You go take in. If he would’ve, in other words, more confidence in what the outcome would’ve been. JJ: He wanted stay in the meeting. ADR: So Orlando wanted to make sure that what you did or what didn’t do with something that, in other words, that you wouldn’t do anything stupid. I mean, that’s not a right word. That’s not right. In other words, we didn’t know-- the reaction is we weren’t sure how you were going to react. Orlando felt he could better deal with you, dealing with you on that issue by being there. That’s the reason nobody’s ever asked, “Why didn’t Orlando [01:11:00] go and deal with Andre?” JJ: All right. ADR: Okay. Andre, I mean, Orlando, was concerned about you, how you were going to deal with that issue. So my job felt that you got to take care of Andre, that he 44 �doesn’t do what he wants to do. Okay? In other words, you got to stop him. Okay? That’s how that occurred that night. JJ: And basically what we agreed is that they were revolutionary compañeros. ADR: Have I agreed to what now? JJ: Basically what I said that they were revolutionary compañeros, that they were our guests and we were not going to attack them. ADR: Well, personally, we didn’t think, me and Orlando, I mean, I have to say, because Orlando, we didn’t think much of New York. We didn’t think much of New York. JJ: Okay. I agree with you. ADR: I mean, the point is you were more, what we saw is an issue, not a problem. That word would be issue. The issue we saw [01:12:00] with you is that you were [nine slaps?]. Okay? Remember, you’re forgetting that Orlando had slapped not once, but had slapped them twice on different occasions, the guy from New York, when he mouthed off to Orlando. JJ: Oh, you’re talking about Yoruba. ADR: Yoruba, exactly. JJ: Okay. Alright. ADR: So we never-JJ: I thought they was angry then. I was out of town when that happened. ADR: The point is, if you would’ve been there, you would’ve criticized. You had a tendency to criticize-- you did it to me-- and you’re (inaudible). In other words, you took the feud-- I’m not criticizing in the sense that, do not understand why that was done. Okay. 45 �JJ: Okay, what view would I have, what view? ADR: Well, your logic was proper, but on the issue involved was impractical. That’s the best way I can, you would’ve said, well, we, Latinos, we should not be fighting each other. We agree with you. I mean, I’m very willing. But when you’re dealing with somebody that’s, in other words, [01:13:00] harming the group, you weren’t willing to take, in other words, be forcible. And the issue of how it had to be dealt with. That’s what I’m saying about, he always wanted to play the nice, nice role. You didn’t take the responsibility for having to do the hard things that ended up getting the results of what the things we needed to do. And that is a criticism that not only me, but I can take Orlando, would have the same criticism that he had about you is that you want always be, you want everybody like to us, it was like you want everybody to like you. And we didn’t agree with you on that particular issue. So Yoruba, Yoruba had challenged a lot. JJ: I’ll agree 60 percent. Sixty-three percent. I’ll agree 60 percent. But that’s your perspective. That’s fine. ADR: Well, Yoruba made the mistake of mouthing off in a bad way to Orlando. And that’s why he told him, in other words, to pay him back. He went and with his open hand, slapped him, [01:14:00] humiliated him and telling him, he says, “You’re not good enough for me to punch you because you’re a fucking pussy.” Basically. JJ: Well, how did this start? I mean, what was it? How did it start? ADR: Well, because remember, the New York guys had this thing that they didn’t even throw it out openly. “We’re the educated ones.” You used to throw out, these 46 �guys are in college and big deal. You know what I mean? The practicality, what I think you were forgetting. JJ: But they had people from the streets too. ADR: Fine. They didn’t have the balls. JJ: No. The people, they had balls themselves. ADR: Okay, fine. They had balls. Okay. JJ: We grew up in a different way than they did. So because of that, we looked at them differently. I mean, we grew up differently than they did because they grew up in New York and we grew up in Chicago, and they looked at us differently too. I [01:15:00] mean, vice versa. And I tried to, even before-- that wasn’t the first time that I was a mediator because even in the gang, I had to be mediator. To me, we were all Young Lords to me, and I’m trying to find a way to keep us as Young Lords. ADR: But you’re forgetting. You’re forgetting. You’re forgetting. Even at that time. JJ: And it wasn’t easy. It wasn’t easy because I was-- ADR: Yeah, but see, what you’re forgetting is that these people did not have for us, some did not have the interest of the organization. JJ: There was individuals, there was individuals within them and individuals within us. The majority of the group wanted to stay together, but there were individuals on both sides that had problems. ADR: That might have been so. JJ: That happens in any organization. 47 �ADR: But see, when they broke away, they proved the point. I mean, the point is what we, I mean from the perspective of, and [01:16:00] again, some of the individuals, and we opposed a particular idea. I mean, believe me, even immediately, we’re finding out that you allowed ’em to keep the name, the younger, your justification was, well become more recognizable name. The rest of us. I can’t speak for everybody, but I can’t speak for number of individuals, we thought you screwed up. JJ: Okay. Speaking for yourself, how did you feel about it? ADR: I think that was a big mistake. And I’m not the only one, but I’m speaking for myself. I thought that was dumb because you gave them, (inaudible) they never had, they did not do-- A lot of the stuff that was done that they took credit for were was done under the Young Lords, it was done by us. The takeovers, the fights, the issues with the police, the other things we had, all of those things, the creation of the programs that we had-- breakfast program, the healthcare, other things we had, we had all these things. And you pissed us. [01:17:00] I’m saying not only myself, but you pissed some of us off. What the hell are you doing letting them keep the goddamn name? They didn’t contribute shit to the name. They didn’t go through the struggle. I mean, you mentioned in of doing the things we done when the police, whenever they would’ve, people getting hurt and getting killed, where were they? How many Young Lords got killed? Okay. And one of our guys, how many times ended up in jail for being Young Lords and got locked up and got shot at? So when you gave the name, we thought, and I said, I’m using the word we because I was not the only one. Okay? We thought you 48 �screwed up. Totally screwed up because you gave them a platform they did not have, that would not have had, if that name would’ve been taken away from them. Okay? That’s what you don’t realize the mistake you made, you created that problem, okay? Inadvertently [01:18:00] you created. You thought you were doing something good that came back to bite your ass because the Young Lords party would’ve never existed. Where they wouldn’t go, where it go. If we would’ve said, no, you can’t use the goddamn name, what are they going to do? Maybe we would’ve forced ’em to become something better, and that would’ve been good, but you didn’t give ’em that opportunity. You allowed them to, they copied everything. I mean, all the great things that what the Young Lords, they were being copied. You allowed that to happen. Nobody. I mean, this is something you have to take that, I mean, as a criticism, that you have to take the blame for that because you’re the one that created that problem, not the rest of us. And honestly, and as a friend, you did a disservice to the people that went to jail. Did a disservice to the people that got shot. Because everything in the paper over the years, what have I been complaining about over the years? I mean, when asked being involved and stuff, I said, I keep (inaudible) this is all fucking bullshit. [01:19:00] Fucking lies that has been written about what happened, how it happened, how it occurred, and you keep telling me it’s going to get straightened out. Where does it getting straightened that New York done that and all this other crap and all so-called experts, they knew about the activity when they never fucking participated in any of the goddamn-- hardcore issues that we had to deal with. All the speakers that I seen and things that go on, 49 �secondary or third meaning come from secondhand information, not from the participants. None of the things that I’ve seen in there were actual participants to say, “Here I did that. I got shot, or I went to jail for this, or this happened over here, or I had to take this guy down because of that.” Where was the guy there that can sit there and do that? None of the actual participants that did the things that were done are ended up participating in this situation. They all talk [01:20:00] about how badasses they were, but nothing -- where the fuck are they? What were they doing? Hiding behind the fucking end of back of the line when we were fighting, who went to the fights that had to be dealt with when somebody got attacked. In the beginning, all of a sudden it was Orlando, myself, Andre, when you say you’re right, I mean, I mentioned because it always comes from (inaudible), but Andre, the rest of us that we were Richie, Popo, some of the other guys, we were the ones that were dealing with the fucking bullshit. Much of what happens in life. They ain’t got the other ones, the speakers. Well, I represent, I do this, I do that, or this is going on, and what the fuck? Where were you motherfucker when you were there, when we needed to, really needed you to do the things that that needed to be had? Why did you coin the word of the rally Young Lords? Where did that come from, Cha-Cha, if not from the fucking fact that the only thing when we were holding a rally, when the party was had, [01:21:00] instead of having the actual participants benefit from the goddamn things that were done. Did they ever benefit from that? Maybe with a lockup in jail? What happened to, I reminded we forget about-- look at Carlos. Look how he ended up, he ended up in goddamn jail doing 20 to life. 50 �JJ: Which Carlos? ADR: Carlos Perez. Did you know he was in jail? JJ: Oh, no, no, no, no. This Carlos? ADR: Andres, no, I mean Raymond’s brother. JJ: Oh, Carlos Montanes. Oh, he’s in jail? ADR: Yeah. JJ: Oh, no, I didn’t know that. ADR: There was some of the other guys that ended up doing time. The point is we’re asking is the kind of end-- I’m juggling in here and not may even making any sense of what I’m saying. JJ: No, no. You’re making sense. ADR: But the point is that this thing-- [01:22:00] JJ: I’m listening to what you’re saying. You’re making sense. Again, I see there’s side two. I see a different side too. But I definitely feel what you’re saying. I mean, you’re making sense. I think you’re correct in a lot of things there. I think a lot of repression, a lot of problems that took place here were not given the recognition that they deserve, that we deserve here, that the people in Chicago deserve. But then again, I think that they were contributing in a different light in New York in a different-- ADR: I’m not a, when you say the contribution--I’m not saying-JJ: I don’t blame the cadre in New York for that, because there was several branches of Young Lords in New York that came together. There was some street people like Pickles that was from the streets that when I went there, he 51 �was complaining that the students are not [01:23:00] listening to what I’m saying. And so I can relate to him from the street because I said, well, you know what they have to listen to you because this is the people’s movement. It’s for people from the streets. But Pickles joined with them. In fact, (inaudible) came out of that, and he was under central committee. So I mean, there was some mistakes made on all parts and people were trying to divide us up, infiltrating, but we also made mistakes too. I mean, like you said, we’re Young Lords. We can’t be slapping other Young Lords. You understand what I’m saying? Do you believe that we should, me and you have argued many, many, many times and we never slapped each other. ADR: Look, it wasn’t-JJ: Have me and you ever slapped each other? ADR: No, I’m trying to make, I’m mentioning that. I think we’ve argued. All right. Was it on the face value? Was it a good thing? No. Okay. [01:24:00] I can agree with that. But at the same time, the question, the follow up question, was it necessary? Answer is yes. All right. Because in certain situations, this is again in the study of the Young Lords. JJ: (inaudible) beat up another human being. ADR: No, no. Lemme make my point. Because as we’re saying in there, when you look at the Young Lords. JJ: We broke out of that. We said, we don’t want to deal with gangbanging stuff. ADR: Right. No, I am getting to that. I mean, what I’m trying to say from here, listen, what I think, what I’m referring to that those particular issues, what point I’m 52 �trying to make out of that is an explanation. When I say in the question of what I’m asking, was it a justifiable thing to do? I mean, was it a good thing? The answer is no. That’s what I said, but there has to be a follow-up question that answers that it was something that was necessary to do. And I say the answer to that is yes. Now I have to explain that. In order to explain that-JJ: [01:25:00] And then he was our guest. ADR: --well, here’s what I’m trying to-- bear with me, and in the moment, you’re making me forget the point that I’m trying to make here. But the thing I’m trying to say is that our group was no different from other groups in terms of what I was referring to. Somebody was to come and actually study us, say why did these things occur as they would find out? I mean, this is what about laying out on the table and those issues is too, in other words, somebody saying, I mean, maybe a hundred years from now when there has been a contradiction on the part of the youngers that in other words, a member slaps another member in that kind of a situation and study. In other words, in other words, when there’ve been studies to why this was done, you’re going to find many groups that these interactions that take place in order for the group to succeed. This is what I’m saying, where it becomes necessary to do the things, or you become too placent, in other words, in certain areas, that makes the strength [01:26:00] of the organization. So what I’m trying to get at, I’m going to make a statement that’s not going to make any sense to you whatsoever, but I want you from time to time to come back and ask myself to explain whether it’s here or any other time into the future. And my statement is this, educated people are stupid people. I want you to keep 53 �that in mind, and I’ll repeat it again. Educated people are stupid people. Because if you look at that and just in life, they’re going to find how the puzzle comes together when you can put that puzzle when you’re looking at things, because it has to do right now with the economy, when I’m referring to that, is all the educated people that came in there, they came in up with all the economists. I mean, if you look at the economy, and I’m not going to get into it, but I’m making, again, it’s an example, an analogy that all troubles of the United States [01:27:00] that we end up having right now is based on what the economists and what they were trying to do and giving us the (inaudible) pictures that existed, obviously. And anybody that’s listening to what I’m saying is going to say, well, this guy’s full of shit. What is he talking about? But what I’m trying to say is that the economists a lot had a lot of fault and giving us the rosy picture, but a system, how it works, not realize it. Because in the end, because they’re educated, you can’t tell ’em. This is what I’m referring to, all the stupidity of the things that the educated people, this is what got us in fucking trouble right now. It wasn’t the average person. I mean, and we’re struggling to get out of this hole we find ourselves in today because they’re too stupid to understand that the middle class, in other words, the average worker needs to make money in order to survive. You’re forgetting, and I’m not asking, I’m going to ask the question, but I’m answering the question. Why the idea of what to have. Why was it that somebody came up with the idea that here in the United States, for example, that in having a welfare system, you had to give money to the [01:28:00] poor person and others didn’t have a job, didn’t have anything. Why was that person given 54 �money? I said, I’m asking the question, but I’m also answering. The reason that the money was given food stamps, in order, and a check, not a lot of money, but a check that was given to them at the end of the month was so they could go and continue to be productive in society by buying goods instead of begging for the damn goods. Because if somebody buys a can of food, that means there’s going to be a factory worker doing that soup, putting it together, the raw material that has to be produced in order to make the can, in order to put the label on it as much as putting the food on it and putting people to work. Because if the poor people keep increasing and they can’t buy anything, they don’t have anything, what’s going to happen? We’re going to become a third rate nation. Well, that’s what I’m referring about smart people being, I mean, educated people. Correct myself, educated people being stupid. What are they doing? Outsourcing all that goddamn jobs out of the country. [01:29:00] Is the Chinese buying our goods? I mean, the Chinese got, I mean, getting philosophical, but the import, it’s over a billion persons in China. They represent basically one third of the world population, Cha-Cha. And you think with all the goods in there that they’re going to be able to, where are we seeing the production when everything’s been sent to be built by these people? Every product, every material, everything that’s being done, labor. That’s why labor put a label. We want to know where the damn product is being made and everything that’s been made in China. But what is China buying? Educated person is going to say, “Hey, China’s buying shitload of stuff from the United States.” You know what? You’re right. But you know you’re an idiot because they’re buying the fucking companies. They’re 55 �buying the goddamn product. What happens in the book, if we go, their cash flow goes back to China, it doesn’t stay here in the United States. They own the companies. [01:30:00] They own the land. They own land in the United States. JJ: The Chinese. ADR: Oh, the goods. Yeah. I mean, I’m not saying they buying whole (inaudible), but they own land. So the buying their goods, the buying is going back to China. I don’t mean to get on China, on China, make some against the Chinese or anything. But the point is the logic of the educated person without going back with the Young Lords. And what I’m referring to correlation here is to me, the educated person was the Young Lords from New York, and they were stupid. JJ: Some were educated. Again. So when I went there-- ADR: Fine. I mean, I make it, I’m generalizing. JJ: You’re generalizing. Okay. And what I’m saying is when I went there and saw the Young Lords in New York, they were just like we were I, they were just like we were, the people in the leadership were, yes, a lot of ’em were [01:31:00] students, but the cadre were just like we were. And we also had students here too. I mean Omar or other people were students. We had students with us. [Victor Chavarria?] was a student, [Marta Chavarria?], (inaudible), (inaudible), all the doctors, the attorneys they were working with. ADR: But the people we had in there rose to their levels. If you’re going to talk about, for example. JJ: My job as the head of the group was to try to keep the group together. I’m coming from my job, which is, and today you’re a union organizer. You organize 56 �unions, and so your job is to keep the union together. So I was doing the same thing at that time. I’m saying, I see that we got a bad problem here. Somebody got slapped and now we’re going to divide a movement [01:32:00] that was for self-determination for Latinos. So I’m looking-ADR: Cha-Cha, they didn’t have, no -JJ: I’m looking at our ideology. I’m looking at our belief system and it is going to be torn apart. And what are we going to do about this? And I have to take a position knowing that I come from this group here, the Young Lords, but at the same time, these other Young Lords are Young Lords too. And so I’m just saying, I’m not saying it was right or wrong. ADR: Trying to justify. JJ: This is oral history. ADR: You’re trying to justify it. Look, the point is New York has nothing without us. New York had never had anything without us. JJ: What you said, explain my part. I’m trying to explain my part. I won’t justify it because this is your-- ADR: Go ahead. Go ahead. JJ: So my position was how can we keep us together? And that’s what I was trying to do. And I know that there was going to be a coup d’état happening and [01:33:00] I had to deal with it. But that was my role at that time. I had to do my role. And I believe that Felipe came here. Felipe Luciano, his role was to defend. They was sending to defend me York, and that’s what he was doing. So I respected him for that. He’s our guest. We don’t want to attack nobody here. 57 �We can’t attack our guests. And plus these are our brothers no matter what. It’s just like when Andre and (inaudible) and Orlando, and who was the other one? Orlando and somebody else. Orlando. ADR: Louie was there. JJ: Orlando was sticking up for Ralph for (inaudible). ADR: Ralph. JJ: And Andre was sticking up for (inaudible). I had to be in the middle. I had to be in the middle then, because I couldn’t allow the group to fall apart. I was just doing my role. I’m just saying. I know you’re angry about it. ADR: Well, the point is, the point of what you’re saying-JJ: I want to explain. ADR: Okay, I understand. [01:34:00] But you bring it up. It has to be answered. I mean, at the point when you’re bringing it up in here. Look, number one is just as much as I’ve learned and you’re forgetting either, well, let me put it to this way. If you see somebody that’s sitting in front of you sharpening a knife, what are you going to do? JJ: I’m going to get me a shield or something quickly. ADR: You were blind. Okay. Evidently you were blind because you didn’t see what the rest of us saw. Okay? You were blind. New York already-- your instincts, your street instincts left you at that point. That the best thing I’m putting it to you, nice. You let your street instincts get the best of you. I mean, I get away from you because you should have known what was going to take place. And it wasn’t difficult for the rest of us to say he fucked up. You forgot, and this is what I’m 58 �saying about the nice-nice, I don’t mean to be [01:35:00] sarcastic or anything in there, in this thing in it. We didn’t need New York. We had the rest of the goddamn nation. We didn’t even have the time to organize other chapters that wanted to be organized. So what was, and again, in the platform now, that’s quarterbacking now, meaning the Monday night, in other words, now reflecting on things that could have taken place, which is not fair. But what I’m trying to say is that then in New York, obviously didn’t take advantage of something they had in their ability to do. They could have taken the other chapters, created other chapters across the nation and overtake us in popularity by, but they didn’t do it because they weren’t smart. Educated, but stupid. I don’t mean to imply that every member that you’re trying to point out to me, I’m talking the leadership and the things in it. Because if I would’ve been there and I got the name the Young Lords party, now I’m going to go to Detroit, I’m going to go to Philadelphia, I’m going to go to Los Angeles, [01:36:00] I’m going to go to Houston, I’m going to go to Dallas. I’m going to go to Louisiana, wherever I can open up different chapters. That’s what the good thing is, that they didn’t take advantage of that. That’s quarterbacking. I mean, not quarterback, whatever. I’m the analogy about I’m going something and it’s not fair. But what I’m trying to point in there that the other side of it, what really took place is now they had (inaudible), but they’re not imaginative individuals to come up with new ideas, to do things. We might not have had the education, but we were not stupid. JJ: We were thinking in different levels. ADR: But look, the thing is then-- 59 �JJ: Because I’m not thinking then at that point, I’m not thinking just that I’m just a Young Lord. I’m thinking that we’re representing a movement of Latinos. ADR: The movement. JJ: But you’re still the only thinking and I respect that, that we’re just Young Lords. And so [01:37:00] these people here want to factionalize and want to being Young Lords. ADR: Cha-Cha, if you’re saying that. JJ: No, I’m just saying-- ADR: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. JJ: An issue like that, not saying which is correct-- ADR: You’re forgetting what was happening here in Chicago. I mean, if you were so concerned about the movement, why were you not involved with the issue of when we were dealing with the Latin Eagles, the Latin Kings and the other groups trying to kill each other? JJ: We were dealing with that. We had meetings about it. We had truces and everything like that with the different gangs. We were dealing with that. ADR: May I remind you of something. What did we say we were going to do that never happened. Okay. And I say that because you were one of the proponents at the time in the (inaudible). You made it a point in the earlier parts of the political organization about what had happened in Libya, the country. [01:38:00] JJ: Okay. 60 �ADR: Okay. Do you recall now what I’m referring to? What did Libya do in its independence from the French? What did the Libyans do at the beginning? You remind me. JJ: No, no. Remind me. I don’t know (inaudible). ADR: Okay. They got rid of the drug dealers. They killed them. JJ: Exactly. ADR: Why? What would’ve been the reason for the revolutionaries, of Libyan revolutionaries to kill the drug dealers? JJ: They couldn’t be rehabilitated. They couldn’t be rehabilitated, I am thinking. I don’t know. I don’t remember. ADR: Who’s the, what destroys the community. I mean, I’m asking questions, what I’m trying to say, but I’m going to get to the point. JJ: Okay. ADR: The point was that they did that because that was the one that contributed to the breakdown of the families and everything else because of the drug addiction, [01:39:00] the bad things that come with those particular issues. So they basically told ’em, either straighten yourselves up or something’s going to happen to you. And so they started, obviously they didn’t listen, in order to get rid of that problem or to unite the people, they had to get rid of it. We discussed that. We discussed that in the neighborhood, that we had to go to the drug dealers to stop your fucking bullshit because you’re destroying the neighborhood. Unfortunately, that was one of the threats that we never carried through, and I think for other obvious reasons why that didn’t happen. But the point was that we 61 �did discuss it about doing because of what had happened to Libya. In order to liberate the people, in order to change the mentality, what was taking their unity they created, they needed to deal with a problem. This is where I go back to the point as, and I’m not justifying it. I’m not trying, just trying to justify, I’m just trying to paint the similarities that exists. Yoruba getting slapped-- [01:40:00] The practicability of why that had to be done. So I’m trying to justify what Orlando did. It needed to be done. Just as much as the Libyans did. And I know it’s an extreme example. It’s an extreme example. JJ: Why did it need to be done? ADR: Because you got to remember that New York tended to think-- the impression they gave me. JJ: But Yoruba was not representing all of New York. ADR: It doesn’t matter. JJ: In fact, I didn’t give a damn about New York. I didn’t give a damn about Chicago. ADR: If you gave a damn, why did you allow ’em to keep the name? JJ: I first-- ADR: But why did you allow ’em to keep the name? I mean, I’m asking questions that should have been asked you. JJ: That’s what got us in trouble thinking that here’s Chicago, here’s New York. To me, I’m a Latino first. That’s number one. ADR: But you forgot -- 62 �JJ: We became political. When we became political. We said, we don’t even care about the gang anymore. To us it’s not about a gang. It is about building a movement. ADR: [01:41:00] Nobody at that point, nobody thought of ourselves and we never thought of ourselves. Let’s correct something here. JJ: Because at that time (inaudible). ADR: At that point, there was nothing mentality about the gang, it was you’re (inaudible). I mean, I’m pointing out something to you. Okay? I don’t mean it to be, take it for what it is. At that point, no one thought or none of us within the internal, what other people labeled us, none of us thought of ourselves as a gang in any form, which way or form, when we bridged the gap of becoming political. In other words, that would’ve been and be precise in the date. That would’ve been from the point that when Manuel got killed, that we, in other words, because there’s a story behind how that came about and that particular issue, how that occurred. JJ: Manuel Ramos. ADR: But at the very beginning, and we then nobody thought about it. So your point about this thing got labeled, internally, we never believed, we never applied it to ourselves. We never believed in that. And we had left that long ago, had let that go. [01:42:00] So why are you bringing that up? That had nothing to do. It was taking place on a political process that was taking place that had nothing to do with gang activity. 63 �JJ: That moment it appeared that we were still, even though we gave up the gang, some of our thinking was still there. Would you agree or no? ADR: No, because look, the issue with New York. The issue with New York was the name. Their justification, I mean, if you’re trying to analyze why they came, they were supposedly that they needed to take you back to New York. Okay? They wanted you to go to New York. JJ: I remember that. I remember, okay. ADR: That was the whole thing was about, so why are you bringing this stigma about the-JJ: They wanted me to go to New York and make them the national headquarters. They wanted New York to be the national headquarters. That’s what they wanted. ADR: Exactly. Exactly. JJ: I remember that now. ADR: But I think that’s my point. JJ: But [01:43:00] I think they were being facetious because they knew I was not going to do that. ADR: Well, my point was, and maybe that’s where Orlando, I would ask, why did you but let that particular, because like I said, our concern was you, so I wasn’t there at the meeting. Obviously I was taking care of the other issue. But the point is that, and I couldn’t understand why maybe you blindsided our side without really say, why is New York going to be allowed to keep the name? Okay. And in the aftermath, we just said that. We weren’t thinking what did New York had to in 64 �exchange what was New York or there was nothing. And without, again, I emphasize without the name, if they would’ve been told, look, you guys don’t want it. You want to go ahead, fine. You want to break away from us, fine. But now you’re not going to use the name. [01:44:00] That’s it. So what you should have done, again, it’s not fair to you, but what should have done at that point shouldn’t have let it happen. Is that-- no, we’re going to, well now we’re going to dictate, and you know what? We’re going to replace you guys as leaders. We’re going to send a couple of Young Lords to assess the value and pick other leaders to run the organization. That’s what should have happened. I mean, it’s not fair to you at this point as many years that going back. But what should have been done is it should have been told, okay, this is what you want. Because this is what I’m saying, how we reacted to the-- that’s where you-JJ: No, no, no. I think you have a good point, good point there that we didn’t think it out that well, we should have thought it out better. I’ll accept that feedback. That’s good feedback. We should have been, had we thought it out better, we might have been able to avoid some of this. So that is my responsibility as the head of the group at that time, to I’ll accept that criticism. That’s good criticism. [01:45:00] We should have analyzed the situation a little bit better and knew-because we knew they were coming to meet with us and we should have been able to have some kind of answer to them that they could take back with ’em. And perhaps we wouldn’t have been split up. Perhaps we would’ve been able to work things out. ADR: I mean, if they were to split up-- 65 �JJ: That is my fault. That is my fault, I’ll accept that. ADR: That is your fault. (inaudible) JJ: I accept that. And that created confusion among the Young Lord members in Chicago and New York. So I’ll take that responsibility. But again, my other responsibility was to try to keep us together, not for us, our sake as Young Lords, but for the movement’s sake as Latinos at that time. And that might sound softy. ADR: Stop it-- wait a minute, wait a minute, wait. I’m not going to-JJ: Our job was to build a movement at that time. That’s why we started in Chicago, to build a movement and it spread New York and it spread to other cities. And that’s all I [01:46:00] was trying to do-- ADR: If you were so concerned. JJ: But I’m not justifying, I’m saying-- ADR: No, I’m not saying you’re justifying. JJ: I’ll accept (inaudible). ADR: But look, that should be left at that. Because the point is that if you were concerned about the movement, I’m trying to answer the question. If you were concerned about-JJ: I would’ve analyzed it. ADR: The (inaudible) Patriots. The Panthers, did they dictated policy to us? JJ: No, they didn’t. ADR: So then if they wanted to do something else, would you have been able to stop ’em? JJ: No, they didn’t (inaudible)-- 66 �ADR: How are you going to split the goddamn movement? JJ: No, no, no. I’m saying that we had a movement together in New York and Chicago. ADR: Well, you mentioned the thing that your idea was New York. JJ: New York was for Puerto Rican independence. New York is-- the biggest population of Puerto Ricans is in New York. Chicago is-- ADR: How much full-JJ: -- is Mexican and Puerto Rican. But New York at that time was mainly Puerto Rican, and we were a group here of Mexican [01:47:00] and Puerto Rican, of all Latinos. That’s what we were, that’s the thing. ADR: Okay. Well, you’re opening yourself from my part to criticism for me. Okay. Because your analysis is faulty. JJ: Okay. ADR: You talk about a movement among Hispanics, New York was the least of the goddamn problems because I could ask you what was happening at the other side of the coast. in the west coast, and if you really wanted to talk about keeping a movement together. I’m trying to get to the point in here. JJ: No, I’m talking about the Young Lords. ADR: Exactly. And I’m talking about the Young Lords-- no, what you’re referring to, the movement was the movement, the Young Lords, I mean-JJ: No, no, no. ADR: No. The movement. Alright, stop right there. JJ: We were part of the movement. 67 �ADR: Well, my point is this what I’m trying to say what-JJ: I didn’t want lose all those chapters. ADR: Cha-Cha, if Hispanic movement in order to truly exist and a microscopic already existed with the Young Lords, okay, you’re forgetting [01:48:00] something that, and this is the problem that I’ve always said over all these years in the aftermath of the Young Lords, all right, you’re forgetting (inaudible), how it worked well and you are applying when you talk about it. That’s why I’m criticizing you on this particular issue because you’re forgetting that it wasn’t Puerto Ricans that did it by themselves. They did it with Mexicans and we did it some Cubans and some other nationalities within the Hispanic movement. And right now you’re talking just about the Puerto Ricans. And somehow this is, no, wait a minute. I didn’t say, well, that impression, you’re giving that impression. JJ: I said at that point, no, I didn’t. ADR: Wait a minute. But you’re giving that impression. I said the movement in order to succeed among the Hispanics. We have to have a coalition, which it existed much like that. Mexicans and Puerto Ricans already learned how to lift it, especially in the city here in Illinois works very well. That lesson is not being applied by New York and it ain’t being applied by the goddamn thing, everything that’s written about the Young Lords as being a Puerto Rican group, and you really want to make an impact on the people, [01:49:00] how it started, and name the men who contributed to the movement more than anybody else. I will make this statement. Mexicans and Puerto Ricans in Chicago. Fuck New York because they were all fucking Puerto Rican, we’re fucking in there and then 68 �contributing it. And if you want to make a movement between the people, you got to stop forgetting about the fuck New York. You’ve got to start remembering that the Mexicans had a lot to do with the movement here in Chicago as part of the Young Lords, as a broader picture of what took place. It wasn’t done by the Puerto Ricans by themselves. You’re forgetting that sometimes or not that you do it intentionally. Okay? That’s why in New York, I could give a fuck less about New York. I don’t mean to sound vulgar or start swearing or things like that, but it pisses me off to sit there and somehow this fucking movement of the Young Lords dealt with this issue of fucking Puerto Ricans. Where were the fucking Mexicans [01:50:00] who took the (inaudible) together? We did it together. You want to show the younger youth, you got to show ’em that we have lived, we know how to live together, how to get along together, how to work together. Where the fuck are they going to learn that if you’re not telling them the real story. Your story ain’t about fucking New York. Fuck the Young Lords party. They didn’t do shit. They didn’t contribute a fucking thing to the movement other than the fucking name, the big (inaudible) mouths. What else did they do? Tell me because they were shooting there when I was leading the fucking marches. They weren’t there when I took over the goddamn seminary. They weren’t there when I took over the fucking church and they weren’t there when I was fucking facing the cops, that I was the front person in front of everybody in there ready to take, possibly taking a fucking shot from the fucking cops. They weren’t there. When I went to the Carina alone with other people that were there, I was there by 69 �myself. But when I was there, when I was in front of the line going to the Carina projects [01:51:00] and get into the issues that had to be dealt with. ADR: Those are the things I didn’t do it-- I’m not saying that I was there by myself. I had other people, Puerto Ricans and Mexicans together when we did these things. So where are the Mexicans? I mean are we fucking blind or what? I mean our skin so dark that we’re not there because there’s certainly nothing’s ever mentioned about the contribution of the Mexicans into the Puerto Rican movement. None. Okay, none whatsoever. All these goddamn years, all this stuff in there talking about blah, blah, blah, and I was like, bullshit. Where’s the contribution when somebody said, we have had contribution from the Mexicans, they’re our brothers that have helped us. We’re all together. Where-- give me one statement that it shows anywhere in motherfucking right or neither. Show me one fucking sentence when you got that. JJ: I did make a button that said “Tengo Aztlán, Tengo Aztlán En Mi Corazón.” [01:52:00] I made that button. So I have to differ with you a little bit, but I definitely respect the pride that you have for the Mexican community and definitely for example, Luis Chavez took over the People’s Church. He led the People’s Church (inaudible) with the heads of our clinic, (inaudible) health clinic, Puerto Rican patriot. It was named after the Puerto Rican compatriot, but yet it was Mexicans that were running in the leadership of our clinic, Mexican Young Lords, that were doing that. So I definitely respect, definitely respect that. And you’re correct that we did not give enough attention to the Mexican Young Lords. And I’m not giving a but to New York. One of our main issues though, that 70 �including Mexicans and Puerto Ricans were fighting for at that time [01:53:00] was self-determination for Puerto Rico. ADR: The what now? JJ: The main issue that when we started was self-determination for Puerto Rico. Our first button said, our first button said, “Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazon” and then we made the button “Tengo Aztlán En Mi Corazón” to recognize the contribution of the Mexican people within our group. ADR: But my point, okay, you’re bringing something up. The thing, okay. (inaudible) No, no. I’m point out something of what you said in there that people are not aware. All right? When that was done, and many times during the period when we used to have debates, they lasted all night and (inaudible), and I can remember hours we spent arguing some of these points. You were arguing when the button was being created. Not all of us were sitting there were in agreement about the button, but do you recall what you said? Were you convinced those of us that were Mexican [01:54:00] to go with the idea with the button, the way it was being written the way you wanted? “I got Puerto Rico En Mi Corazon.” How did that come about? JJ: I’m not sure. ADR: You don’t remember? JJ: I don’t remember. I don’t remember. ADR: Okay, as a brother, sometimes critical-- you forget important points of what took place. The argument we were having with you that night is that because those of us that were different nationalities weren’t created by (inaudible). Why are we 71 �doing this? There were issues. The (inaudible) even Puerto Rican siding with some of us that saying, that makes sense. We’re not all, not everybody here is Puerto Rican. We kept arguing the whole night about (inaudible). You kept fighting that we needed to have that blah, blah, blah, whatever. But you made one point that finally convinced when we said we agreed to it, and then sometimes it becomes a regrettable agreement. What I’m trying to say because of the issue that the way I just out spoke and then letting certain things out that you don’t realize the consequences of the way this has been taken. [01:55:00] ADR: The way New York abuses it in terms of the presentation by so-called Puerto Rican movement, that they were not really that goddamn movement. You said to us, “You guys, the Mexicans, the Argentineans, you went to a number, you all have your flags. Y’all have your countries. Puerto Rico’s not a free country. It’s a possession of the United States.” And we realized the (inaudible) because like I said, it was a long discussion that night, an argument, but we realized that we conceded to you that you were right in the sense that if Puerto Rico was to become a free nation, we needed to support that. And that was the idea of why we allowed that we said we got Puerto Rico mi Corazon. That’s how that came about. And whether you did or not, the point the credit, the only credit, the credit I’m giving you is the fact that they made up an accurate report in saying Puerto Rico is not a free country [01:56:00] or otherwise that would not have taken place. ADR: And that’s the same thing I’m taking there, that you’re not giving credit. This is sometimes, quite honestly, sometimes-- I don’t get angry. But I mean, I’m 72 �disappointed in you that all these years things has been said in there that not enough has been mentioned that this thing about much like what you’re doing with New York about saying, well, just looking back about having the name that again, playing nice-nice, you, in other words, you allowed another, a bigger harm to take place and you don’t see the consequences of that. The consequence I’m pointing out to you, if I’m going to go sell a point of why the unity between the not here in Chicago so much in Chicago, Chicago is different than probably than New York and other places because here the unity of among Hispanics is probably much stronger than any other part of the country. But if I’m going to go to New York or other places where you got a mix or Florida Cubans and Mexicans and which are minority [01:57:00] over there, the Cubans, the Puerto Ricans and numbers in there, my point to them in there, in order to sell ’em in there, take a look at what this group did. They did it with different nationalities, but how am I going to sell something when everybody, every time they read it, well, the Young Lords were fucking Puerto Rican. How did they allow Mexican to get in there? Don’t you think I’m going to hear something like that being said? I didn’t know fucking-- where do you get that? The Mexicans started to help start the gang of the young roots. They were a fucking Puerto Rican group. They were a Puerto Rican gang. They don’t know the truth. They don’t know what took place. Why? Because you got people lying. Perpetrating lies about the movement. You got second sources trying to speak for the first sources. That’s a harm Cha-Cha, a big one. You want to get people on your side. You want to impact the youth. This is what I refer when I’m talking [01:58:00] about the truth. 73 �The truth speaks for itself. I’m not going to say we were perfect, that we were goddamn saints. But what they’ll see, what I mention is that the unity that existed, the trust, you talked about all these things, this is why the (inaudible) gets put together, the trust we had with each other that we didn’t second guess with each other didn’t matter that you were goddamn Puerto Rican and I’m goddamn Mexican. If Sal said he wanted to do that, well fucking do it. He knows what he’s doing. Or if Cha-Cha said something, do it. What I’m trying to say in that trust, that’s how we build. You talked about the trust. The trust came from the ability to trust each other unconditionally because we didn’t feel that we were going to get stabbed in the back or anything. I don’t have to worry that you were going to be doing or anything like that. That’s if you want to teach, educate, this is what I’m referring. Everything else is-- that’s all fucking bullshit. I mean, Carlos can hear me and I would say it to his face, fucking, [01:59:00] what are you talking to an expert on the Young Lords? You didn’t know shit. You were a fucking rally Young Lord and almost all the other goddamn speakers there, they were all rally Young Lords. They weren’t there participating, doing any of the heavy work that needed to be done, negotiating the things that, all the different things we did, contributions. I mean, it wasn’t just me and seven people or seven people and me. It was a contribution of the community. Remember you asked me to give a perspective. So I’m unfortunately, I find myself using the word I perhaps too much. Alright? But you’re asking about what there is, where I fit and how these issues came to be, but it was a contribution of different, it just Mexican and Puerto Ricans. We had whites helping us. They were part of the 74 �Young Lords. With the women that participated and did the damn things. We even had Blacks in our organization. Where is that Cha-Cha? Where is that being? [02:00:00] Where does it show up? How you want to impact a Black to say you need to be part of the movement or you need to vote for me or you need to help me out when you’re talking about the Young Lords, and then they say the fucking Young Lords are Puerto Rican, what do I got to do with the Puerto Ricans? How do you impact the woman that you’re trying to bring her into the group? Well, what do I want to do with a bunch of fucking Puerto Rican male children, as fucking pigs, right? JJ: They agree on that. They agree. ADR: You understand what I’m saying? I don’t mean to maybe I’m going to the extreme of criticizing you, but the thing is, this is the failure that what I all these-JJ: You’re making good points. You heard me, right? ADR: Okay, so the movements that we’re going to move will come back in there if we don’t correct. This is what of all these years, but I’ve been trying to refer to you what needed to be done. [02:01:00] Okay? You just never really wanted-perhaps you didn’t want to listen to me. I don’t take it in a, but all these things. This is what I referred about telling the truth, putting the facts on the table. Because if people look at what was done and how that came to be, it’s not the bad they’re going to look at. They’re going to look at the cohesiveness, the trust, the things that made the things work. We learned from the women. (audio cuts out) Perfect. Take one. I can recall without hearing again, the occurrence, they had to set us down and said, you guys are fucking up. A couple of times that 75 �they in there. You guys are doing this. You’re not supposed to be doing it. I mean, even on the women, they rolled up and stood up to us saying, we don’t like the way you guys are going. Remember that? They had the guts to tell us off and we listened. And sometimes the males would being males, maybe some of us smirked at them, [02:02:00] but we had to listen and we had to listen to what they had to tell us, and obviously they might’ve been a part because of the greater movement with the woman’s movement that was coming into existence. But-- and because of that, more than likely they realized that, wait a minute, these guys are treating us like shit. We got to change them. How are you going to reach people? I mean, when you talk about the movement, that’s when I heard you say this thing about I didn’t want to split the movement. You bewildered the shit out of me. How the fuck are you talking about movement when you’re talking-- well, nobody’s, maybe nobody’s going to fucking listen to you if you keep talking about a group and correlate to what exists that nobody else has any interest unless you happen to be a Puerto Rican that, in other words, other than that, nobody, believe me, nobody’s going to want to listen to you because it doesn’t connect. It doesn’t-- you know this is what I’m saying about reaching the audience, reaching the-- [02:03:00] The thing is, I mean, there’s a lot to be thought from what happened and it just not because we, some were super-duper or whatever this, yes, we were lucky. It is like sometimes somebody winning the lottery or we were in a certain time and place. We reacted in a certain way. We didn’t plan it. The events that occurred in the way they occurred just sort of fitted in place and that was it. Now we can take it to the 76 �other level, use that as a vehicle to help organize a larger movement and in other words, to the Hispanic populations that continue to increase in the United States, and make it useful. Like voters. Why do we want to have, when the Hispanics don’t want to vote right now for many number of reasons, but they can study us. Here’s why you should vote. Here’s what can’t be accomplished when people get together. [02:04:00] Now, we might just be one example out of many, but still one example is one more that didn’t exist. And other things in terms of organizing and things that occur, that has to be the lessons that learned that I talked about yesterday. The things that we learned. I mean, I looked at perspective from my point dealing with the YMCA, how they did things, and I think they had enough brains to see that ain’t working and I know why it ain’t working. I got a better way of doing it. Doesn’t make me super smart or anything else. It’s just that I was lucky enough to see it differently and then apply that to something else. Then I go back to the statement, educated people are stupid people. I know some people that are listening to what I’m saying may not make no goddamn sense at all, but if they really think right higher, they know what I’m talking about. [02:04:59] As far as the Young Lords, all of us, not all of us, that stand corrected, quite a few of us became successful. I like to think that I became successful, but there wasn’t just being by myself. There were other guys that went on to do a lot more things in life and contributing not only to society. JJ: How were you successful? How were you successful? 77 �ADR: Well, if you take a look at who we were, it’s like saying how many heartbeats away was I away from being in jail? To that add the only individual that I can kind thank again comes to Orlando and I need to explain something about Orlando, why in the later years, I became more as a friend, more endeared. Not that I, sometimes it’s been years that sometimes that I don’t go beyond seeing him. [02:06:00] And then the things that we haven’t discussed that had to deal with the issues like with drugs. It was part of the movement of those things that happened. I think Orlando, me personally, saved me from becoming in any way, becoming in any way addicted to drugs, and I got him to thank for that because he put it in a perspective in such a way that it made me think that I could never do that. And I got him to thank. As a friend, when I came back from Vietnam at the end of 1968 as far as the Young Lords, to me, it was a non-existent thing. I mean, it is not like I came, “Hey guys, I’m back.” I didn’t do that. Interestingly enough, Orlando knew I was coming out because he would ask my sister from time to time when is Sal coming back. So as soon as when he knew when I was coming back, he came to see me. [02:07:00] Out of all the guys, Orlando was the-- he came and said, how you doing? And I went out and we started hanging out together, which kind of surprised me because it was the least thing I expected was for him to come looking for me. So then we started hanging out together. I remember seeing you, not under the best of circumstances when you were living in Wrightwood with an Hispanic girl, but that was not under the best circumstances. JJ: Meaning what? I was using drugs at that time? 78 �ADR: Yes. Kind of shook me, shocked me. I wasn’t expecting that at all. You’re in a goddamn suit, the whole bit and-JJ: High as a kite. ADR: Huh? JJ: And high as a kite. In a suit, but high as a kite. [02:08:00] But while you were gone, there was a drug epidemic in the neighborhood. ADR: The what now? JJ: While you were gone in Vietnam, there was a drug epidemic in the neighborhood. The country was hippies, the country was hippies, and we were following that. ADR: Well, there might’ve been a drug epidemic in the area and (inaudible) but not as big as what came later. JJ: Oh yeah. It came later. Later it what, got worse? Yeah, got worse. ADR: I mean, in your time-JJ: Because later it spreads more to minority groups, so-called minorities. ADR: The time you’re talking with-JJ: First it was the hippie movement, and then some of us got into that hippie movement, but then it spread to the barrios. ADR: Remember, Gorilla? Gorilla was a Paragons. JJ: Okay. Right. I remember. Oh yeah, I know who you’re talking about. ADR: What I remember, because as I said, I wasn’t [02:09:00] getting-- my recollection of when I had come back, there were very few people, and I don’t know how 79 �much usage you were doing. I mean, as compared to what happened later. What I’m saying is in comparison to when I first got back. JJ: I became addicted, I became addicted. ADR: To me, it seems like you were. JJ: I was addicted. I was on the corner every day. ADR: Okay. I mean, I don’t know about that. I mean-JJ: One day I was in a suit and tie and the next day I was like a bum. So I mean, I was addicted. ADR: Okay. The thing was that there weren’t that many people that were addicted at the time when I came back. JJ: Right. ADR: But you were in the minority, you guys were in the minority. I’m mentioning Gorilla because Gorilla was the one that one of the suppliers at the time. And as I said, when Orlando came back, I had come back and hanging around, [02:10:00] being single and what have you not, I used to go down to Rush Street a lot, and sometimes with Orlando and things like that. We ran into Gorilla one time and were knowing each other and everything else, I was kind of surprised to see him down on Rush Street. But I quickly caught onto why he was down on Rush Street. Obviously sell some of his wares that he had. But he wasn’t the kind of guy at that point that-- even then he was not a user. He was in the business. He was making money. He always had money in his pocket, obviously from the sales. But what I recall in that area, the particular area that started happening is that the group at the very beginning, when I’m saying I’m 80 �coming back, the issue of drugs [02:11:00] was not something that was heavily within our group at all. You were the exception and you kept that under control. But as time passed, the gradualness of the individual is like the guys we all knew who was doing drugs. It wasn’t hard to figure out, it wasn’t a secret or anything, but the group was in a minority and it started to increase as time passed. So if there were two, three guys doing it, we knew what they were doing. And this is one of the reasons that we had discussed, but what we were going, the Young Lords came into being and the political aspects of it. In other words, the political aspects of the Young Lords came into being, the discussion of the drug dealing came into focus, but nothing was really ever done along the lines of what the discussions that have been had about that. But the group started increasing [02:12:00] in numbers. In other words, people doing the drugs became increasing to the point that they became the majority rather than the minority within certain given time. That happened in other neighborhoods. The, go ahead. If you’re going to-JJ: Go ahead. Go ahead. ADR: So the issue of the drugs and that particular issue, the epidemic for me, the way my perspective came much later, the epidemic, that a neighborhood that basically had a minority of drug users, the neighborhood changed to completely of having a majority of drug use. A lot of guys will deny, I mean, I’m not the only exception you got, Fermin never did drugs, myself. Maybe there’s a couple of other guys. I can’t think right off the camera, but we were really the minority. We never did any drugs because everybody else did. [02:13:00] And for us, it was 81 �the transition. When we used to go down to Rush Street and there’d be five, six of us going down to Rush Street and every weekend, and then maybe once with Ralph and once in a while the guys all were doing is getting high once a month, but then once a month became once a week, and then once a week it became every day. Okay. I mean, that was the effect. JJ: Everybody would say it was just once a month. Yeah. ADR: Right. So that issue, I mean, I think the thing with drugs, it was something that we-JJ: Well, the good thing about Fermin and (inaudible) and people like that, the reason they didn’t get into drugs was they were the sports. We had teams, sports teams. Remember you mentioned about the YMCA. So they played basketball, they played softball, and they were very good at it. [02:14:01] I mean, I got good at it too sometimes, but I didn’t stay with it. But they stayed with it. They were athletic and they represented the Young Lords, and we won a lot of games. So we had our own basketball teams, our own baseball teams and everything else. But I was in the boxing team I remember. I did win a trophy one day, but even though everybody booed me because I was kicking the guy after he was (inaudible). But at least we, but see, but what I’m saying is we were in tournaments as Young Lords because the YMCA was trying to get us out of the gang. And like you said, that was a mistake because-- ADR: But you’re talking about the time also. JJ: That’s why he didn’t get into drugs. That’s why Fermin and then never get into hard drugs. 82 �ADR: And Benny didn’t do it until much later on. JJ: No, he did it later. He did it later. Yeah. ADR: Huh? JJ: He did it later. ADR: Right. [02:15:00] That’s what I’m (inaudible). JJ: Yeah. ADR: He did it when we became political that he got drunk. That’s what I was referring to earlier. The process of when the majority became into drug addiction was during the political process that took place with the Young Lords. But prior to that, it was basically non-existence. I don’t say if you can call it success, but obviously for me, I referred to it in my own mentality, I had sort of a triangle, meaning that I had a daytime job, which I applied myself because I had a family from the very beginning. I, having gotten married almost immediately after coming out of the service. And in the process, I went back to school, along with Louie. Louie was the one-- this issue. I don’t take credit for certain things. Louie convinced me to go back to school, college. [02:16:00] I really hadn’t thought about doing that. And then part of that, because I originally coming out of the service, as I said, I was leaving everything behind with exception when Orlando, as I said, came around and brought me back into the group. Because of my hearing problem that I started developing, when I left the service that I realized that I had a hearing problem and the disability was recognized by the immediate, because it happened right after I left the service. I discovered that I had the problem, a hearing problem at that point was because I wanted to become a 83 �pilot, I mean a commercial pilot, but not flying the big planes, the smaller planes. And I was going to go to school for that, and I had to leave it because of my hearing. So I felt like I was going to sort of quagmire as to what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And at that point, I really didn’t know what I wanted to do. [02:17:00] Then the issue of the Young Lords started coming into play and the political processes that things were evolving. So there were a couple of years where I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I was young enough to realize I got enough time to plan my future. I just wanted to kind of settle in. So the bottom line is that Louie convinced me and said, you need figure out when you go back to school. Because my plan was if I’m going back to school, use the GI Bill, I want to make sure what I’m going to and how to, what am I going to use it? But he said, leave that alone. Don’t worry about it. Get back and you got four years to figure out what you want to do. He convinced me to go back to school, and in doing so, I started taking courses that I felt comfortable with. I’ve always loved reading, and I always had an interest in law. So I started taking criminal courses and for work, work-wise [02:18:00] engineering courses to enhance my position as an operator. So the years started to roll by more quickly, and I found school to become very easily. So I ended up going, attending junior college, got my two year degree. Then I transferred to Northeastern and got my, and I actually I, which is kind of surprised me because I was a lousy student, I really wasn’t a lousy student at all. But I ended up graduating with honors from Northeastern. I got my degree and I graduated with honors, and I also started studying law. Then quickly, moving up, I got accepted into law school, but I got sideswiped. I 84 �use the word sideswiped because, and I got into organizing it with the union. We had a change of power and I was asked-JJ: What union, what union? ADR: That’s the Operating [02:19:00] Engineers with Local 150. But the point was-JJ: Also part of the Latin American-- ADR: Right. But I’m trying to say about the triangle. The education, the radical movement and the conservative movement that exists within the construction industry gave me a different perspective of how I viewed things. I had the knowledge of radicalism, firsthand, conservative, working with the mentality, the conservative movement. So not that the construction workers are conservative, but I mean, in other words, a completely contrast mentality of how things are viewed, the political process and everything else, how the system works that comes from the construction industry. But there’s a lot to learn, really because they can educate you in a lot of different things and not just about being a worker or an operator [02:20:00] or a carpenter or an electrician. It’s a society of workers that do things to benefit their own groups and do things that, in other words, to enhance their positions and workplace and things that come with that. And obviously then the other one, what I got from education. The numbers, the statistics, the studies of different groups and all these other things, that all kind of helped me see things in perspective and making me realize what the Young Lords have represented. Some of the things that you’re hearing me talk of what I said, why things and how the American system really works. And sometimes I say things and I realize at the moment that I don’t always explain that it needs to 85 �be explained. And sometimes I’m guilty of explaining too much, and at other times, I’m also guilty of not explaining everything enough of what I’m talking about. But what I’m trying to [02:21:00] say is that the system within the movement is the certain amount of not, realistic, not where it would be. In looking at the movement, I realized that the movement made a lot of mistakes that didn’t live up to what the way things should have been brought. They were blind. Because I think that’s why I always looked at, I mean, in reaching something, a decision or a conclusion, the best way to do it is to see all the options that are on the table. Law school teaches you that, okay. It teaches you to see different views so that you can come to a conclusion to a certain (inaudible). It’s ideal. It doesn’t always work sometimes, but that’s the essence of looking at things. So for me, looking at things over the years, I think it helped me become a good organizer business agent with the local. It made me, [02:22:00] one thing, one of the rules I learned, I call it a rule like certain things, is that I always kept in mind is that not to be judgmental, okay? Because you have to, in representing people or organizing, you can’t be a judge. I mean, you can’t be taking sides and things. You have to listen to what people are saying from both sides in order to help you reach a conclusion as to how to solve a particular issue, or sometimes you have to hear from more than one point of view or two different points of view or three different points of view, what I’m referring to. Other things helped me evolve. And obviously-JJ: So the Young Lords helped you get into the union, the Young Lords helped you go forward with the union, is that what you’re saying? 86 �ADR: Yeah. It helped me because in organizing, there were certain things that-- labor movements organization abilities are [02:23:00] where I can say they’re great (inaudible). But again, the issues with the Young Lords is the ability to, there’s correlations, what I’m trying to say with what happened with the Young Lords just as much with other groups or things in the labor movement, it is really, there’s a lot of things that are related to each other. And to me, it’s like reading a history book and it’s not learning about that history when you got, in other words, there’s particular saying that you don’t have to jump off the roof, in other words, to feel how it hurt you. And that’s what I’m referring to in history, that there are certain number of things that, in other words, the same being is that if you can’t learn from history, you’re [02:24:00] bound to repeat the same mistakes. I agree with that. JJ: How long have you been a union organizer? How many years? ADR: Actually with our local, from the point we come in, we carry a two title that’s being business agent/organizer. So how the whole time for me, I would’ve to say the whole time, more than 20 years that I was a business agent. Business agent/organizer. JJ: Okay. So you’ve been working with the union more than 20 years now, and it helped you with the Young Lords. ADR: Right, because it would’ve been in 1980. JJ: Yeah. ADR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. 87 �ADR: More than 20 years. JJ: And you also worked in the, I know we only get a few more minutes. You worked all the way with the Young Lords, even with the Harold Washington campaign? ADR: Right. That was another thing that we never discussed, but that needs to be discussed as to how the political process that came that we haven’t really discussed [02:25:00] those political, this is the aftermath of the Young Lords, because the only thing I would say, we might want do some more interview on this. I’m the one, and not for anything that I’m trying to take, not the point of trying to take credit, having learned that the experience that we have had, I’m the one that approached Omar because I was working from the union. I was a worker back then-- I wasn’t. We were helping Jane Byrne on her reelection campaign, knowing what previously from the Young Lords experiences of the Young Lords, I had the idea. I knew that all Omar was working for [Callie?], I knew that you were working for Washington and some of the other people. So I went to Omar and I said, why don’t we get in touch with all the interest at different parties that belong to different organizations and let’s have a talk. And I told him my idea. JJ: So then the Young Lords were working in different campaigns? ADR: [02:26:00] Yes. JJ: Okay. But I was working with Washington. ADR: You were with Washington. Omar was with Callie. I was with Jane Byrne and with some other people. Not only, but when I told Omar, I said, I don’t want to restrict it. 88 �JJ: We were not in existence as-- ADR: Exactly. And my point to, right, but my point to Omar was, I don’t want to just deal with, so get as many people as we can that are working for the different candidates. Let’s bring ’em together. I said I want to have a meeting and I told ’em what I wanted to do. I said, well, my idea is that whoever wins the, because I knew whoever wins the primaries was the next mayor from the Democratic side, and that was the deal that we had agreed. When we sat down in there, that’s what, whether Omar said it or that was done, I was the one that came up with it. Our position is that whoever wins the primary, the rest of us have to join up with that group [02:27:00] and help ’em in order to enhance the positions, the capabilities of what we’re going to go with this. In this instance, your candidate won. That’s where we went and said, okay, I want to work with you now. That’s how in the aftermath of the political process, we came to Washington. At that time, I was already in law school. I was attending already law school. And so we (inaudible), and that’s how we went to the point of enhancing the positions and other things that came with that, which you mentioned about, I think. But the task force, as I recall, not for any other reason, I can’t think of the guys. He was married to, a Jewish woman at -JJ: You’re saying the Latino Task Force, that that was created, we created that. We created basically with other groups, with other coalitions. ADR: The idea came from, as I call it, was from that name, B-- god, it starts with a b, I believe, [02:28:00] the congressman from New York that came to help Washington. 89 �JJ: (inaudible) me and you took him around. ADR: He was good. JJ: Me and you took him around. ADR: He knew his shit. Lemme tell you something. JJ: He gave us an idea of setting up. ADR: Exactly. Exactly. With subpoena powers. JJ: Latino task force with subpoena powers. And then we took that to our members, to our group that we were working with Washington at that time, Harold Washington, and then Harold Washington agreed with us. And we got together with other groups and formed that coalition. ADR: Which obviously had to do. JJ: Still exists today. DA still has it. It still exists today, right? Under Mary. It doesn’t exist anymore. ADR: (shakes head no) Daley killed it. JJ: Oh, Daley killed it. Daley, Junior killed it. I told you about that guy. You can’t support that guy. Okay. ADR: [02:29:00] Well, the point, the thing was-JJ: Let’s wrap it up, let’s wrap it up. ADR: The point of all that isn’t that no one was really listening to, and I said this earlier, or if I didn’t, by then, what I’m trying to say is that really listening to what is being said, they’re here, but they’re really not listening to what’s being said. But then you in creating the task force emphasized the fact that we had to have subpoena powers. Okay. Which then happened because, and again, I blame, I’m not 90 �blaming you on that particular level, and I’m trying to say, but some of the other people that had the education that, oh, we can’t, I fought you to the point, because you didn’t want to embarrass Washington. When Washington himself had told us sitting down and you’re not hearing what the guy’s saying. You got to give him an excuse he needs an excuse to justify what he’s going to give us. Because if you just goes around and said, I’m going to create, in other words, he would’ve gone [02:30:00] on the floor and said, tomorrow I’m going to create a Latino task force that has subpoena power. All this goddamn members say, what the fuck is wrong with you? Okay, let it go. We can do another interview. I mean, my point on that, what I’m trying to say, he was saying, in other words, justify, go out and protest. I mean, I was mention, I can’t remember the guy’s name that came in there. He sits there protesting in front of the goddamn city hall and oh man, man can be, everybody’s bitching. Oh, he can’t be doing that. He’s embarrassing the Hispanics, because they’re protesting in Washington. We help Washington. What did Washington do then? Help him one goddamn bit, didn’t do shit for Washington. We all know that. Washington says you guys got to put him in the tax force. Remember that? He sat on the original task force. So my point is that, okay, (inaudible) well, what I’m saying is what I said that Washington, they had to tell us. The rest of them were in there. [02:31:00] Why are you putting that guy in there? Because he’s out there protesting. I got to put him in a goddamn thing, now me to stop them doing this, I had to put ’em in a taxi. 91 �JJ: Okay, now we’re going to start talking about you’re in the service now, right? So are you in the army, navy, or what? ADR: The Army. JJ: And where were you stationed there? ADR: What now? JJ: Where did you go to? Where were you stationed? ADR: Well, one thing before we get into the Army that we were mentioning about the fights, the gang fights, the major fights that was never mentioned. Make me think you’re forgetting. We fought against 18th Street and you’re forgetting it was Mama’s group that we fought against and we had gang fights with them. JJ: Oh, oh, with Mama Velasquez? ADR: Yeah. JJ: Oh, Arturo Velasquez, who ran for Alderman later? ADR: Not Arturo. Yeah. JJ: He ran for Alderman later. ADR: [02:32:00] Yeah. JJ: What in the hell-- ADR: We fought against him. JJ: What was the name of their group? ADR: I don’t remember. JJ: Did you fight against him at that time? That’s how we met each other. ADR: No, we fought against them. JJ: And what was that fight? What was the reasoning for that fight? 92 �ADR: Those are fights that we used to come in when, as I said before, sometimes we were asked to become as an alliance to another group when they were fighting a fight. That was one of where alliances were made, we’re fighting. We fought against their group. There are other ones, I mean, I’m sure they’re going to come to me, but there were other, in that end of the years, there were other, a lot more fights. Typically, we had fights almost, I’m not saying exactly, but almost on a daily basis. That was unique to ourselves. Not to the Paragons, not to the Latin Eagles, I mean the Black Eagles. We were unique in that. [02:33:00] And we ventured one of the things in this many times in there that we were mobile, we weren’t, other than probably the longest period of time, was that we stayed in one particular place would’ve been Old Town. But we tended to be mobile during those years. And one of the things that really in expanding the group, but how we operated was the fact that what I mentioned earlier, that we were not always together as a group. I mean, people didn’t realize it was a cohesive group that existed within the Young Lords. So as I said, if you take a look at the [Division Pete?], you look at it. What’s his name? Oh God, I’m forgetting his name. [02:34:00] Her husband that got killed. I tend to forget names. JJ: Angie? ADR: Who? JJ: Angie or --? ADR: Angie’s husband? JJ: Poncho. Poncho. ADR: Poncho. Tried to challenge us. Got his ass kicked. 93 �JJ: What do you mean he tried to challenge? What do you mean because he was-- ADR: Pancho tried to take over the group. JJ: Okay. What do you mean he tried to take over? You mentioned that a couple of people tried to take over the group. ADR: You had, as I said, Division Pete, Poncho. Almost every guy that came into the group, they brought in a couple of guys. There were other guys that wanted to become leaders. Now, we didn’t know that immediately. I mean, if things would come up in there that it would become apparent, as I stated before, when we would’ve meetings that who was going to be the next president or that wanted to be somebody else, a president that came into place. So what I’m trying to tell you that, for example, when Division Pete, [02:35:00] he did it along with a couple, it wasn’t just by himself. He was doing with a couple of other guys from the area Old Town, because as I said, they didn’t see us all together. I know that when we had the meeting, and often the case, the one that was our in trying to describe, I have to go back to Orlando. He was like the gladiator. He was always the one that would take him on. They ended up kicking Division Pete’s ass when he had made the challenge and fighting him. And like I said, there were other people. You were asking about fights. I remember one time with Orlando when as many fights that might seem-JJ: There was always a struggle within the Young Lords of different people that wanted to take the leadership role. ADR: And Orlando was always at the forefront of defending the group. JJ: Right. 94 �ADR: I remember one night when he got drunk. [02:36:00] Now, to my credit, as I said, the friendship I had with him, I mean obviously repeated it many times. He was drunk one night as many times when we used to get drunk every weekend, we used to go try to get drunk, try it, because we thought that was a cool thing to do or we wanted to do it. But you remember the fight when he took on, he fought about 11 different fights in one night? He was fighting everybody? Among the group and everything that he had gotten, know what he was doing. Orlando. JJ: When he fought Andre or whatever, I remember one time I had to get in the middle of is that, and both sides wanted to kick my butt. Both sides. ADR: Well, that night he ended up the only one he-JJ: He told me he was going to kill me and Andre. ADR: He started a fight with everybody within the group. He was drunk, he was drunk. And obviously, [02:37:00] Orlando’s Orlando but we didn’t, the rest of the guys didn’t give a shit. They-- we weren’t going to take his crap. But I mean, he fought about 11 of us one night, except me. He’s the only one that, in other words, recognized me. He never tried but he was fighting with everybody else, including yourself. Fermin, Carlos, I mean all the other guys because he was drunk. He had drank, he was completely fucked up. But that was Orlando. That was his thing about explaining. But-JJ: I remember Division Pete and Andre were together. ADR: Andre was another one that tried to-JJ: And then Orlando was defending Ralph. ADR: Who? 95 �JJ: He was defending Ralph. ADR: Right. You’re right. JJ: And that’s the time that I had to get in the middle because they were going to destroy the group. And so I had to get in the middle. [02:38:00] And one time Orlando was winning-- no, Andre was winning over Orlando because the ones that started the fight was Division Pete and Spaghetti and Ralph. But then the ones that did the fighting, those were the ones that started the fight. Division Pete and Ralph, the ones that did the fighting was Orlando and Andre. See, even though the other ones started the fight, it became a fight between Orlando and Andre. And then Andre had Orlando for a while and I grabbed Andre. He had him stuck and he was getting ready to do damage. And I came from behind and grabbed, I grabbed Andre, and Andre told me, I’m going to kill you. You let me go whatever. I said, well, let him get out of the fence so he could fight you fair. Let him get out. So then I did that for him. [02:39:00] So then later on, it was the other way around, it was Andre that was on the ground and Orlando was ready to get him. And that’s when I grabbed Orlando and he told me the same thing, I’m going to kill you son of a gun. So I said, okay, whatever, later on, but let Andre get up. So I kept the fight balanced because I didn’t want the group to destroy because there was a split between the group that hung around on Wheeling and the old Lords, the core group like Orlando and Spaghetti and yourself and other people that was a core group was I had to get in the middle and play mediator. Do you recall that or no? ADR: Who? 96 �JJ: I had to get in the middle to keep it fair. ADR: Right. JJ: Do you remember that at all or no? How do you remember that? ADR: [02:40:00] You’re talking about a different fight. JJ: Oh, it’s a different fight? Okay. ADR: That was a different fight. JJ: Okay. Alright. ADR: The one I’m talking is where Orlando got drunk. It had nothing to do with no-- it had nothing to do with that. The one, I realize what you’re talking, but you’re talking about a completely different fight. JJ: Okay. But you had heard about that one. ADR: Right. JJ: Okay. So that was the other one. ADR: But the other one I’m referring to is when he just started going at the guys, it got to the point that he didn’t recognize-- the only-- he ended up, for some reason, that recognized me was me. I’m the only one that he didn’t pick a fight with in that was drunk is what my point I’m trying to make. But you reminded me about the fights. All these guys that came in that ended up being friends, you’re forgetting one guy that would not mention that I haven’t mentioned hardly at all. Carlos. Carlos, Raymond’s brother was very much part of it, but he was a quiet [02:41:00] one. But he was in the thick of a lot of the fighting, a lot of the things that we did, he was always there and we hardly ever mentioned him, but he was, 97 �all the fighting we did, he was always there fighting with us alongside of us. But we hardly ever mentioned him because we-JJ: He lived over by Halsted and Woodwright. There was a Spanish store underneath and he lived in that building that was a big multi dwelling like you said. ADR: But he tended to be very quiet. JJ: Right, right. ADR: Never really said anything much or anything else, but he was always there fighting with us. JJ: Okay, now you’re in the service. Right? And you’re there from 1965 to 1968, 1966, 1967, 1968. ADR: Right. That would’ve been, you can’t really count when you’re saying 1965-really that was November when I left at the end of November. JJ: Okay. ADR: So you got one month [02:42:00] December and that was it from the month of 1965. So it-JJ: So it was 1964? ADR: So you’re really looking, I was going away from 1960- in other words, the three years from 1966, 1967, 1968. I came back in November of 1968. JJ: Okay. Alright. ADR: After the convention when I returned. JJ: After the Democrat convention. So now how-- ADR: When I went in, I was 17 years old. 98 �JJ: Right. ADR: Alright. And I wanted to be a paratrooper, but it turns out that this is how I ended up, for whatever reasons, sometimes things happen, one doesn’t realize the impact that it has on you. So I’m thinking that when you’re going to be a soldier, you’re a soldier and that’s it, there was nothing other than you’re prepared for war or you’re firing weapons and that kind. I’m 17 years old. But when I got in and actually I left when I learned another important lesson [02:43:00] in life. That particular night I got jumped. You remember that? Cha-Cha? You’re falling asleep. JJ: Oh, I’m sorry. No, go ahead. Okay. No, we’re in the service. We’re in the service. ADR: Okay. JJ: And you wanted to be a paratrooper, you said? ADR: That was from the Continentals. That’s why I have no dear love against your cousin. JJ: My cousin Danny Rodriguez. ADR: Yeah, Danny. What happened that night. JJ: President of the Continentals. ADR: Danny, well, he got, in some ways, when you think in life some people get paid back and it works both ways. But what happened that night was that, going back to my younger years, well remember I met you when I was a Patrol Boy. When I had been a Patrol Boy, it said the captain of the Patrol Boys, one of the Continentals was one of my patrol boys. And [02:44:00] there was a girl-- we 99 �used to have the tunnel that went underneath the El tracks on the street and the station was right there in the morning. He was trying to make out with one of the girls, forcibly trying to kiss her. And obviously she didn’t want anything to do with him. And I made the mistake-- I happened to see what had happened and I said, leave her alone. He said something to me, again, you’re young, 12 years old, whatever age I was at that point, whether I was 12 or 10, I clipped him, I hit him, knocked him out. He tried to get up and fight me and beat the crap out him and it was the end of it. Then I had him removed. I took away like I said the guy was in charge, I had me charged and I kicked him out. Never did anything. Years went by. But your cousin [02:45:00] was an asshole. He instigated him because I found out about that later and the night when they found out that I was leaving in the morning I was leaving, that I was going to go into the service. Danny instigated the guy to get even with me. So as I was going down to Old Town, remember that’s at the time we still hung out in Old Town. So that was the last night. And I was on my way down to Old Town. I was walking down on Armitage, passing Waller High School. He came from behind me and dropped me, took me by surprise and dropped me. And I know (inaudible) when I turned around, I started fighting him. And the Continentals, your cousin came up and I said, this is bullshit. [02:46:00] So it was kind of, I never forgot that, but like I said, and I never forgave him for that either. Kind of was laughing about it. I said, it’s going to be paid back on this one. So when I got back up in there, Ralph found out of him what happened that I had gotten jumped. We came back and they were gone and we went looking for him because I was going into the 100 �service. Ralph said, don’t worry about it, Sal, I’m going to going get these guys. And I was leaving that night. But the lesson I learned about that comes from this is that if you’re fighting somebody, and that’s what I had done and reflecting on that particular situation, is I humiliated the kid in my younger years. And that’s something I learned is that if you’re fighting somebody [02:47:00] and you beat ’em, there’s a choice to be made at that point. You can either allow the guy to get up gracefully and perhaps have a friend for life or you can beat the shit out of him and have an enemy for sure for life. And that’s what I had done with that guy when I knocked him the first punch when I had hit him. I mean, I found him and knocked him that, but I ended up humiliating him because I kept letting him in there humiliated in front of the girl, not realizing that he liked the girl. So in beating the shit out him, keeping his ass further, I had humiliated him something obviously he didn’t, never forgot. And your cousin fed that particular thing them in place against our group. I mean, particularly to myself, because I think it was [02:48:00] as much just like anything else, the Young Lords, I mean. Let me ask a question that has to (inaudible) because it’s inside of your family. Was there any (inaudible) that your cousin had about the Young Lords? JJ: Andy? ADR: Yeah. JJ: Well, between me and him, because we were cousins, we already had a history together. And so he didn’t show that to me. I mean, he more or less, he had his group and then we had our group. 101 �ADR: I think he had an (inaudible) against the group because we were, remember they came after we, at whatever point-JJ: We were more fighters than they were. They more hung around at Newbury’s playground. And so we were more fighters than they were. They were not really that much into fighting. [02:49:00] ADR: As a group-JJ: One day we went to the police station because we were just playing games with ’em, just joking around with ’em. And they took us all to the police station and we had to all stay until the parents came in and got everybody. But that’s the only time that I know that they went to jail or that they fought. And we were just playing games with ’em. ADR: Oh, there was another gang fight. I mean, you’re talking, when we had a fight. JJ: I mean individuals came all the time, but I mean. ADR: Do you remember the fight where they lined us up, the police, they had lined us up. JJ: It was in the-- ADR: Who were we fighting that night? JJ: We were fighting them, but it was playing games. We weren’t really fighting. Then the police arrested us all and then lined us up inside the police station, made us do pushups, turned it into a festival (inaudible). [02:50:00] We were having a good time. ADR: But I mean, my point of what I’m trying to get you to reflect on something else. I know that there was a mock fight, if you want to call it that, but the mock fight in 102 �itself-- I’m reflecting on something, on somebody that in later years underhandedly-- that’s not a nice word. And it’s not what I’m really mean, but I use the word (inaudible) because I can’t really describe anything what the Young Lords ended up representing. And my point is that was there (inaudible) part of your cousin in so far as the issue with the young Lord is we had become more popular. We were better well known. And obviously we were much better fighters than they were. They couldn’t even, you know. JJ: No, they weren’t into fighting. They weren’t into fighting. There were some groups that were not into fighting. Like you said, [02:51:00] even the older ones, the Black Eagles and Paragons, they didn’t even want to fight anymore. They had lived through that and they didn’t want, in fact, the fighting was gone by 1968. There was no fighting. I mean, people were just, that’s when drugs came into the neighborhood. ADR: Well, for me, when I was gone first, like I said, what changed that number? What changed? Now, one of the things when I got inducted in and when I went in, I didn’t know that I was going to have to have a job in the Army, whether it was going to be a cook, a driver, whatever. For some reason hadn’t, when I went in, I hadn’t picked what I wanted to do because it was supposed to. I thought I was miss, I just want to jump out of airplanes. I want to be a paratroop. And the sergeant, when I was being inducted in kind of laughed. He said you’re not going to be jumping planes every day. He says, you got to do some work. He says, cook, things like that. Driver, what? [02:52:00] So at that point I’m thinking, what the fuck am I supposed to do? I don’t even know. My mind is blank. What the 103 �fuck am I going to be? So he chose it for me. He looked at me and he said, you know what? He says, you look like the kind of guy that likes to drive big machines. So he marked me down as a heavy equipment operator and that’s how I ended up becoming a heavy equipment operator. ADR: So when I went in, after going to the training and all that, that I was trained and originally I was going to be sent to Vietnam. The period, and a lot of to be said about what things that I learned in the service, but I was 17 years old instead of going to Vietnam at the point that when too many 17 year olds were dying, getting killed in Vietnam, and obviously mothers were complaining to [02:53:00] Johnson. Johnson decided to stop sending the 17 year olds. And it just so happens when we were graduating out of our training, basic training in what they call a AIT, advanced training into your particular occupation. So all the 17-yearold kids out of the class where we had been taught basic said to, they stopped us and separated us from the rest of the older guys and said, you guys, they held us back. END OF VIDEO FILE 104 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c596581aa9b694020f577d4710517808.mp4 c372141b7cc234e8c25f46b8865008cc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Angel “Sal” del Rivero vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexicano-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Veteranos--Relatos Personales Pandillas--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rivero_Angel_del_2 Title A name given to the resource Angel “Sal” del Rivero video interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rivero, Angel del Description An account of the resource Angel “Sal” del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young Lords in 1959. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr. Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Veterans--Personal narratives Gangs--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7539201754518feac03e3764db193467.pdf 516a6a11a0bfcd218d7b1e9b8310e41d PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Angel “Sal” del Rivero Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/11/2012 Biography and Description Angel “Sal” Del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field, but he never left Lincoln Park as he traveled to it daily. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young Lords in 1959. The other original members of the Young Lords were all Puerto Rican, including Santos Guzman who moved to Lincoln Park from Philadelphia, Benny Pérez who lived on Halsted, Fermin Pérez (no relation to Benny), and David “Chicken Killer” Rivera whose regular job later was at a meat market. Mr. Rivero’s father was the neighborhood barber who cut hair from their home on Fremont and Bissell Streets, which then crossed each other where they both ended. Mr. Rivero’s brothers improvised a roller coaster ride made from wooden fruit crates that slid down the railing of their back porch stairway, racing down into the backyard until the crates finally hit ground on the cement pavement would glide it on their own. It was exhilarating until the ride ended at the fence. All the neighborhood kids enjoyed it and the Rivero kids made a mint from the nickles they charged for the rides.The first president of the Young Lords was Joe Vicente, who had Italian features. Mr. Jiménez became the last president of several because he was always in and out of jail. Mr. Vicente also lived in the Italian section of Lincoln Park, by De Paul University, on Sheffield and Belden. His cousin, Johnny Trinidad had moved from New York, to Indiana Harbor’s Steel Mill area, and then moved onto 95th and Halsted Streets. Mr. Trinidad always �was free with his opinions, especially before, after, and when he briefly popped into meetings to watch, but he rarely attended any full meeting, saying that he could not because he lived out of the neighborhood. Mr. Rivero recalls these early days, noting that the fact that ethnic youth groups lived in segregated blocks in these early days also played a big difference in their organizing. In 1959, Puerto Ricans were still scattered throughout Lincoln Park and so the Young Lords did not begin from a concentrated hangout but were spread out, trying to carve out their own place within Lincoln Park. For many this meant being targeted by white ethnic youth because they had darker skin, were Puerto Rican, or spoke Spanish. Mr. Rivero recalls the numerous stands the Young Lords made in their early days. As more Latinos and African Americans moved into Lincoln Park, Humbolt Park, Wicker Park, and parts of Lakeview through the 1950s and 1960s, youth began to unite more around national origins. Mr. Rivero describes an encounter where the Young Lords, Latin Eagles, and a whole range of northside Puerto Ricans gangs became involved. The Aristocrats were an established white gang that was led by their only Puerto Rican member, Dulio. They had argued with a Puerto Rican family and had entered into a primarily Puerto Rican housing project called California Terrace, located by Halsted and Barry near Clark Streets and threw bricks through all the windows. A war involving about 400 people began and the white Town Hall policemen hid from view. It lasted an entire week. On one of the days, the Puerto Ricans walked down Barry Street and broke out all the car windows, from Halsted to Sheffield looking for and challenging the Aristocrats in their own territory. On another occasion, a stuffed figure of a person hung by the neck from electrical wires high up in the middle of the street, resembling a lynching. The war ended when both groups met on their own and agreed to stop fighting, to avoid being arrested by the police. Mr. Rivero recalls being one of the war counselors with Mr. Jiménez and helping to resolve the conflict. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr. Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: -- you were born? ANGEL DEL RIVERO: JJ: My name is Angel. (inaudible) [professional]. ADR: Angel del Rivero. JJ: Angel del Rivero. Okay. ADR: I was born on June 9, 1948. JJ: Like everybody else, right? Everybody’s from 1948. Okay. If you can (inaudible) sound, give me your name, your date of birth, and where you were born. ADR: Okay. I was born on June the ninth, 1948. I was born in Mexico City, but I was brought to the United States as a baby, basically as a young child. JJ: Any certain part of Mexico City or is that any barrio? ADR: What part of Mexico City? The capital. JJ: Was there a neighborhood or something or --? ADR: I believe it was a place called, the translation would be the three-star [00:01:00] suburb. JJ: The three-star suburb. Okay. ADR: Which was near the famous, that place where the Indian with the Mexican Revolution that got--Hidalgo. This is where the Indian, supposedly the appearance of the Virgin Mary that came up on his cape. That wasn’t really, I don’t know, it wasn’t really that far from that particular community, which is not 1 �like a main boulevard. It goes down to that particular church. The only significance about that was that it was near where I was born. JJ: Okay. Now is your -- what was your father’s name and mother’s name? ADR: What was what now? JJ: Your father and mother’s name? What are their names? ADR: What are they? My father was [00:02:00] by trade, he had become a cabinet maker and he was working. My understanding is that he was one of the, at that time, a foreman working for Zenith Corporation and the people from the Zenith supposedly liked his work that he did and asked him to come to the United States. So he came by himself first, then sent for the rest of the family. JJ: So what year did he come? ADR: Excuse me? JJ: What year did he come? ADR: Geez, that would’ve been 1949 to 1950. JJ: About 1950. Now his name is Angel also? Is his name the same as yours? ADR: No, [00:03:00] his name is Carlos, was Carlos. He passed away. JJ: Okay. And your mom? ADR: Susanna. JJ: Anna? ADR: Excuse me? JJ: Susanna. ADR: Susanna. JJ: Susanna. Okay. And what about siblings? How many brothers and sisters? 2 �ADR: Well, I have-- my father, prior to being married to my mother, had been previously married-- must have gotten a divorce or I don’t know what occurred. I have a stepsister from that marriage. And then when he married my mother, two children were born of her: myself, and my sister. My mother had also been married. Her husband was killed. He was a doctor, [00:04:00] from what I understand, and there was also a daughter that was born to her. So, I have two stepsisters older than myself. One from my mother’s side and one from my father’s side. JJ: Do you know their names? ADR: Huh? JJ: Do you know their names or? ADR: Yeah, from my father’s side, Yolanda, still alive, lives in Mexico, and from my mother’s side, Aida, which she lives here in the United States, presently lives in the Belvidere, Illinois area. And my sister married. JJ: You grew up with her? ADR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. ADR: From my mother’s side, my sister stayed, was part of our family, my stepsister was, part of the family. We grew up together. Yolanda stayed with her mother, so she came to be part, when she was older, [00:05:00] she came to the United States to be with us as part of the family, but she really didn’t like living here, so she went back to Mexico. So that was many, many years ago. She has family. JJ: Did you mention Rosa or --? 3 �ADR: Huh? JJ: Did you mention Rosa? Is there a Rosa or did you have another sister or no? ADR: I said I have three sisters. JJ: Okay. Did you mention, I believe-- ADR: One from my father, one from my mother, and well, for my mother, two girls, because my younger sister, Mary. JJ: Was one of them called Rosa? ADR: Rosa? JJ: Yeah. ADR: (shakes head no) JJ: You don’t have a sister. Okay. ADR: I don’t know. JJ: There’s no Rosa. ADR: Okay. The three of them are Yolanda from my father’s side. Aida from my mother’s side, and again, from my mother, Mary, and myself. JJ: Okay. Thank you. All right. [00:06:00] Okay. So now you came at, what year did you come? ADR: That would’ve been, oh God, I’m not sure. Either it was 1957, I think. JJ: Mid-fifties? ADR: Yeah. I mean, it would’ve been around, but I’m not quite. JJ: Now, when you came, what was the first place that you lived at? ADR: Okay, the first place I lived at was at the Lincoln Park, what is now known as the Lincoln Park area, on Fullerton Avenue close to Clark. 4 �JJ: Oh, Fullerton by Clark. You lived there? ADR: Geneva Terrace is the street. Not Fullerton. Geneva Terrace. JJ: Oh, Geneva Terrace. I’m familiar with that. ADR: Right next to, right off of Fullerton Avenue. JJ: And your parents were living there? [00:07:00] ADR: Yes. JJ: At that time? ADR: Then we moved for some time. We moved over to an area again, I like want to say Arlington Street near Pulaski. We weren’t there too long and my father had moved over there. And then we moved into, I don’t know how long that lasted. I don’t think that lasted too long. And then we moved into the Halsted area, Halsted-Armitage area on Fremont. JJ: On Fremont. ADR: And that’s basically where the area that I ended up going was when we lived on Fremont as a young kid. JJ: Okay. Now, when you lived on Fremont, is that when you went to Mulligan or --? ADR: The what now? JJ: You were going to Mulligan School at that time? ADR: Right, that would have been grammar that I was attending at that point. I mean attending [00:08:00] Mulligan. JJ: Okay. So, was this south of Armitage or north of Armitage? ADR: South of Armitage on Fremont. JJ: On Fremont. Okay. 5 �ADR: It was 19-- I still remember the address going back. It was 1928. The address, the house is still standing. It’s a red, Victorian type house. JJ: Okay, 1928 Fremont. ADR: Right. It’s still standing there. JJ: Okay. And so that’s when you first came from Mexico, you moved there. ADR: Right when we were attending Mulligan. JJ: Now how old were you then? ADR: Must have been around eight, nine years old, or I would’ve to be, no, 10 years old. JJ: About 10 years old. ADR: Yeah. JJ: So, what do you remember of that neighborhood then? ADR: Well, the area was mostly, predominantly it was a white area with few [00:09:00] Hispanics of mix. I mean, the majority I would’ve said at that time, larger group would’ve been Puerto Ricans in that neighborhood, was a little bit larger group than the Mexicans. We really, not that many Mexicans around that area. Predominantly was white, Irish and Italian. Some Italians around the neighborhood. JJ: And this was around 1957, 1956. ADR: Right. That was a time that almost every corner you had just about every corner, there was always some kind of a candy shop or candy store. Specific to the area that I recall from that era would’ve been that the neighborhood community, you 6 �had the Boys Clubs that you tended to have [00:10:00] a storefront place and almost-JJ: You had a Boys Club? ADR: -- just about every corner. JJ: Around Fremont? Oh, you had a little-- ADR: Well, some were in Fremont. They were located within the neighborhood. I remember there was a Boys Club on Fremont, south of where we lived. I mean, it would’ve been about a block south of Armitage. JJ: This was a Boys Club or a --? ADR: Boy’s Club. JJ: I mean like the type that we have now, or you mean a club of kids? This was a Boys Club, a regular athletic organization? ADR: In part, it was an athletic type thing, but also for socializing. This was the time and period where there was a lot of, that came from the area of, I want to say [00:11:00] part of a movement, and it’s not the right word to in describing the type, but not so much like a movement as it’s just traditionally known. But more of, there was a lot of people in terms of creating careers that were becoming social workers. So, it was kind of creating a social services. You had the YMCA, you had the Boys Club, you had that type of thing with the idea of helping out -not helping (inaudible)-- to interact with the youths of the area. I know, and I’ve been going (inaudible) what I’ve come to learn is the idea of the existence that (inaudible)existed in Chicago, but it was sugarcoated that gangs existed during that time. So, the social programs that existed with the idea to overcome 7 �[00:12:00] the bad results from what they would’ve considered gang activity. And so that by having baseball games, basketball, a place where kids could go was supposedly to overcome creating a hardcore gang members. JJ: So, you’re saying there was a large gang population in the area? Is that what you-- ADR: Well, there always has, I mean, they always existed. They didn’t call them -instead of recognize them as what they were, that they were gangs, they would refer to as clubs. JJ: So, this is what you mean that there were Boys Clubs everywhere? ADR: Huh? JJ: This is what you mean that there were Boys Clubs because they had clubhouses, or --? ADR: Let me explain this way. The biggest, getting down to it, I mean, in growing older [00:13:00] learning things, your biggest supporter of gang activity, not because they wanted to, they thought they were doing something good -- not a good example -- I mean, what was occurring during that time was the YMCA. YMCA allowed the gangs to call themselves clubs, either provided to the extent that each so-called club would’ve had a social worker working with them, sort of like a counselor. And in reality, the counselor was there to keep an eye on the activities of that particular group, and allowing this outlet, and instead of being called a gang, again, repeating that they were called clubs, and it in fact never did away with any of the gang activity that existed during those times because of the way they implemented the programs. Part of the problem [00:14:00] that 8 �existed from doing the implementation of those particular programs was that they’re thinking that they could suppress the fights. (telephone interruption) I was saying the problem with their mentality was that by having these tournaments between the clubs. JJ: You’re talking about the YMCA? ADR: Exactly. I’m referring to coming back to the YMCA. Actually was a bad thing because instead of calming down the rivalry between the clubs or the gangs, it intensified the hatred between the groups. Because if you had a basketball tournament, for example, it would be like Young Lords against the Playboys. Well, you’re having a game, you’re going to lose. I mean, somebody’s got to lose, whether it was the Playboys [00:15:00] or it was the Young. So obviously if the Young lost, we’re pissed off at the Playboys because we lost to the Playboys. I mean, and in the pretense to geting into a fight it created that animosity and got even bigger. So instead of bringing them together, it wasn’t bringing groups together. It was just making the animosity grow much stronger between the different gangs that existed at the time. JJ: So, the YMCA was-- ADR: It was feeding into the fighting. So, the fighting never really, the gang fights never really stopped in any way because of the way they did it. I mean. JJ: So, what you’re saying is before that there were gang fights? ADR: Right, well, regardless what I’m saying is YMCA and its mentality and its wisdom of the way they were looking at things, the way they see them. This is an era that they were looking at the social programs, sociologists [00:16:00] and all 9 �these studies that were being done. I mean, I can look back that I can’t think of all the names of all the people that did some of these studies, and I might be even confused right now on one name that comes to mind is Skinner. And I’m not sure Skinner is the one that did this was whether on prisons or on the area of gangs or the socialized, the socializing of the societies or the groups, the socializing of the different groups, how they interacted with each other. The point is that the YMCA thought it was doing something good. They thought by, okay, we’re going to provide a place where they can meet. They want to have a counselor, in other words, a sponsor with each group to help them overcome the issues. We’re going to provide them tournaments for basketball, for baseball, thinking that all these things were great. When in effect, it was feeding into the animosity between [00:17:00] the different groups. They even provided a newspaper at that time where the clubs would write articles about each other from the members saying things. But all of these things, instead of doing what they thought they were getting accomplished, only intensified the hatred between the groups much stronger. JJ: So what way would you have done it? ADR: Huh? JJ: What way would you have done it? Because-- ADR: What would I have done different? JJ: Yeah, what you would’ve done? ADR: What I would’ve done and what I come from that lesson, I mean have in fact I used that is instead of separating them into their own branches, is to mix them 10 �and mixing them together within groups and bringing different people from different-- in other words, if we were going to have a tournament is break the Young Lords group. In other words, create new teams. That way, the identity of the Young Lords, the identity of the Playboys, the identity of the Gaylords is obscured. Now you had a team in there now the difference becomes the rival [00:18:00] is nonexistent. It’s between different groups. So, the co-mixing-- the breaking them up and co-mixing them-- you take all that away and in fact you end up creating new friendships that evolve out of that, would’ve evolved differently had they done that in that particular way. JJ: So, this new team would have a new name also? The new team would’ve had a new name? ADR: You remember, I got a hearing problem. JJ: Yeah. So, you’re mixing them up. ADR: By mixing them up. JJ: Would you also give them a new name? Would you give the team a new name too? ADR: I’m having-JJ: Okay, you got the Playboys and the Young Lords, you mix them up. ADR: Right. JJ: For a ball team. ADR: Right. JJ: Do you give the name a new name to the ball team? 11 �ADR: That would be-- that’s something that would’ve been to the choosing of the group. I mean, in doing that, you don’t have to be so precise to honor it. In other words, if instead [00:19:00] by simply when you mix the groups up, it really doesn’t matter. I mean, if you could say to them, call yourselves whatever you want to call yourselves. It really doesn’t matter. It gives them a new identity. I mean, sure, that they’re going to pick more than the end result is that it could be a mix of two. I mean, in some instances, some group is going to insist, we want to be called this, or someone says, we don’t give a damn, you know, name us whatever it is. The bottom line is that the ones that takes place, (audio cuts out) the point is that whatever the group wanted, whether they wanted to be called it or not, the end result is that when you have that kind of in there, the interaction becomes differently. Because a team is a team. So, in that sense, it creates a-[00:20:00] One of the things it does, it takes away the identity of the gangs. I mean, that’s a given. So, it’s very difficult for that rivalry to continue to exist between the gangs. And as I said, it creates new friendship. It becomes more difficult for fights to get started. And moving fast forward, knowing that a good example is what I did with the Young Lords when, for example, the Black Eagles from the north side dealing with the Latin Kings from Armitage and Halsted. This is where I used it successfully by bringing them together, instead of having them in there to the point that there were a number of instances where the Latin Kings from Armitage and Halsted found themselves protecting the Latin Eagles in places where they were been invited [00:21:00] by the Halsted Latin Kings to 12 �events. That would’ve been Saint Andrew’s -- I don’t-- I forgot Saint Teresa -- the school you attended St. Teresa’s? JJ: Saint Teresa. Yeah. ADR: All right, I remember being at a dance and there were other Latin Kings from other branches from the city, and they knew who I was, obviously as from the Young Lords and shit like that. JJ: So, one of your jobs in the Young Lords, was to work with the gang? ADR: Well, what I’m saying is that in particular, there were other instances. One of them that at this moment that I’m remembering is the one in St. Teresa. There was a party, a dance, and as I said, the Latin Eagles had been invited to come to the particular, then they showed up and they were talking. There was no (inaudible), but the other branches, other members from other branches from the Latin Kings were there and they wanted to, obviously as soon as they found out that the Latin Eagles were there, wanted to jump them. [00:22:00] And the ones from Halsted, if you recall, oh God, I can’t, one of Andre’s brothers-JJ: Richie? ADR: --was there. JJ: Richie? ADR: Richie. But there were others too. The one that used to be the leader, I can’t remember at the moment-JJ: (inaudible) [Papo?] ADR: (inaudible) Papo. The point was that they stopped him and one of the other leaders from the Latin Eagles, Watusi, got pissed off and they basically told him, 13 �you’re not touching them. That didn’t set well with Watusi, that’s why I never got along well with that asshole. But that proved my point. When you bring people together, it creates a friendship and even [transcended?]. It was like, no, we’re not going to let that happen. One of the things that we’re trying to teach is that the fighting among ourselves had to stop. And that was, [00:23:00] I mean, to me, I took that lesson from how the YMCA had operated and twisted it around, in other words, did the opposite of what they were doing. And it works. And I used it in other, in my experience, I have used it that in order to get people, that’s how you get it. It helps also done it in organizing activities where ironically enough, sometimes you find people coming from different areas that come into a centralized point. I mean, in the labor movement, you might have workers coming from-JJ: You’re a labor organizer today. ADR: Right. And those were in that kind of a situation of bringing people together because people always want to be with their own groups, regardless of even within the particular nationality. I mean, if you got [00:24:00] Irish people coming and you got from a particular town and you got other Irish from another town, on the surface, we might think they’re Irish, okay? To us, they’re not going to be (inaudible). But in fact, there might be rivalry between the groups we are not aware of. Same thing with Hispanics. I mean, if you bring Mexicans from the state of Jalisco and you got another place, Madero and different areas, they don’t get along. In part, if you take a look at it, again, sports plays a big deal on that. They got the sports teams and everything else. So, if one state beat the other 14 �state, they’re going to hate each other. I mean, take a look at football, you stop and think, I’m carrying it to another level. Internationally, people have been killed when they’re playing soccer games because they’re so emotional about whether the French beat the Germans or the Germans beat the English. You heard about that rivalry that existed, that they go into riots sometimes in some [00:25:00] of these games. And there has been at times people that have been bystanders that have been killed. So, my point of that is that you avoid that kind of a thing by co-mixing the groups. JJ: And you learned this because there was a gang problem in Lincoln Park in the late 1950s – ADR: Yes. JJ: -- and the YMCA detached worker program was working heavily in Lincoln Park. ADR: Right. They were heavily into that. JJ: Lincoln Park was flooded with gangs. ADR: Yes, it was filled with different-JJ: What were some of the gangs? ADR: As I said, they didn’t call them gangs. They called them clubs. JJ: Okay. What were some of the clubs in Lincoln Park? ADR: But they were gangs. JJ: Okay. What were some of the clubs called? ADR: You had the Black Eagles, the Paragons, you had the Flamingos, you had the -- I take that Flamingos back. I take that back. The Flaming Arrows. The Flaming Arrows were the ones. [00:26:00] The Flaming Arrows were the ones, which at 15 �that time we call the Hispanic Collegians because they dressed sort of like the collegian style, as I remember. They’re your Collegians. Your Black Eagles were the one that we all inspired to depart-JJ: Like college. Like college. ADR: The what? JJ: Collegians, you mean like college kids? ADR: Sort of like they dress like college students. JJ: This was the Flaming Arrows. ADR: Right. And we refer to them as such. We kind of, in other words, in other were to describe the Flaming Eagles were your preppies. JJ: Okay. Oh, because they were more like preppies. So, what about the Paragons? How did they dress? ADR: Paragons and the Black Eagles were the rivals. Obviously, the Black Eagles were there first. Paragons came in second. So, there was a rivalry between both groups. So, they commingled with each other. There was a definite rivalry between [00:27:00] both groups. JJ: So how did this rivalry play out? ADR: The rivalry was not to the point that they would, I mean, not in an open warfare between them, but certainly there were fights among the members themselves. But they conducted in at that time with the mentality in the fairness. In other words, if a member fought in, nobody would jumped in. And if your member lost, in other words, get somebody else to take, to pick up on a fight. In other words, if a Paragon and an Eagle got into a fight, and let’s say that the Paragon won the 16 �fight, all right, the only thing the Eagles could do is put up another member to fight that particular Paragon. They would not jump the guy. They would not do anything what we would consider ungentlemanly kind of thing. Another point is there was no point we’re going to jump that guy, get him by himself or whatever. They never did that. So, they accepted a defeat as such. And then they said the only way they could conquer that [00:28:00] by getting another member to come back and take the place of the member that had been defeated. JJ: So, there’s a different style of fighting then. ADR: Right. JJ: (inaudible). ADR: It was more-JJ: There was a different style of gang-- ADR: More of an honor type thing that recognized. JJ: And this was because they were mostly of the same nationality? ADR: In part because they were the same nationality. Predominantly Puerto Rican, though both the Black Eagles and the Paragons had a couple of Mexican guys that existed on them, but they were predominantly Puerto Rican. The majority of the people -- when I say people I’m referring to the males -- wanted to become Black Eagles. But in the end, such as ourselves, the Young Lords were created because of the same mentality about gang activity that existed. The Black Eagles were not about to have younger members. [00:29:00] They didn’t believe in that. You had to be of certain age to be part. In other words, you had to be, as I recall, 16 or 17 years old to be part of the group otherwise you would not be 17 �accepted. If you’re younger than that, you were out. You were not allowed to come in. So that led to some degree, that helped (inaudible), it helped the creation of how the Young Lords came to be in part. But if you asked, going back to the particular -JJ: The Young Lords were younger than the Black Eagles, right? ADR: Were younger than both in age. All of them were younger in age than the Black Eagles or the Paragons. But the creation of the Young Lords came from myself and Orlando. In telling the story is that I was, [00:30:00] my best buddy was really Orlando’s younger brother, Lupe. And I was the captain of all the patrol boys in Malaga. So obviously Lupe, he had this little titles. I was the captain of the patrol boys, and I had two lieutenants, one for what we call the north side of the school and one for the south side of the school. Obviously, I had Lupe being my best friend, I had him as one of my lieutenants. But what so happens is that he got into, somebody had gotten into a fight with one of the other guys enforcing the rules that we had. And being young kids we sometimes took things a little bit further than needed to be. I mean, we used physical force when we did things. Somehow Lupe had gotten into argument with one of the other patrol boys and not following what he was supposed to be doing, [00:31:00] and the guy wanted to jump Lupe. So, what I did at that point, when this came in, I jumped into the fight and ended up beating the crap out of the other guy. My other patrol boy. That led to Orlando saying -- me and Orlando did not get along. People were not part of this. Okay. Matter of fact, I had a fight. JJ: He fought a lot of other people too. 18 �ADR: Yeah, I fought Orlando. When I first met him we had a fight. Sometimes I think that happens -JJ: I think everybody fought. ADR: Huh? JJ: I think everybody fought Orlando. ADR: I did. JJ: That’s the way-- ADR: First time within meeting him. JJ: To be his friend, you had to fight him. Would you agree or no? What do you think? ADR: Well, I’m not following your-JJ: Okay. To be Orlando’s friend, that you had to fight him for him to-- ADR: When I first met him. JJ: To trust you. For him to trust you. ADR: The very [00:32:00] first meeting I had with him, or when I got to know him, I can’t remember. I mean, you’re asking (inaudible), but it was a week or a month. I had a fight with him. That’s all I can tell you. I mean, going back in time. So, we didn’t talk to each other. In other words, in whatever period, whether it was months or whatever occurred, (inaudible) because of the dynamics that-- it’s stupid, dynamics being the situation that existed, Orlando would go his way. I would go my way. But Lupe is one of those natural things that happen when you’re growing up. You end up, we became immediate friends. I mean, we liked each other. We seem to have a lot of things in common. And to that degree, to 19 �me, that’s why I said we became best of buddies. That had nothing to do with Orlando. JJ: Now, where did they live at? Where did Lupe and Orlando live? What street? ADR: Well, at that time, Orlando, we got to remember something. Orlando, we were in the same grade. But you got to remember, during [00:33:00] that time, the public school system, you attended Catholic school system. JJ: I attended later. I started on the public. ADR: On the public school system, it existed what they call, they had midyear. In other words, in the first grade, second grade, whatever was two parts to the grade. So, if you came in the odd part of the year, you would, stay on the B section, let’s say, because it was the first six months, B was the second following six months. So, if you came in, in the fall, you were part of the B group. If you started out in the spring, in other words, when you enter the public school system, you’re part of the A group, you went into it. They decided to eliminate, around that time during that area, they decided to eliminate that particular system that they had. They also had started creating the upper grade centers that existed. So, I know that [00:34:00] upper grade center, Arnold Upper Grade Center, which was located on Halsted, I mean on Armitage, well, actually on Burling Street, east of Halsted and right in front of Waller, what was known then as Waller High School, which is now called Lincoln Park School. During that time, they had rebuilt the school that had burned down. I can’t recall how it had happened, but Arnold Upper Grade Center, at one point during that would’ve been the early 1960s, it burned down. They came in, built this great new school, Upper Grade Center 20 �that only served the seventh and eighth grade. Now, Orlando was in the different group. When we had our class, we were all part of the same class, but there was a distinction between, and the grade as we were going in, Orlando was in the, as I would recall, would’ve been in the A group. And when they moved, they transferred [00:35:00] him to Arnold Upper Grade Center six months before I got- before me and Lupe went in where me and Lupe were on the group behind his, just to explain how things existed at that time. The point though, coming back in here is that when we had the significance was this particular fight where I had found myself defending Lupe and jumping in because I had to let Lupe do the fighting. When he got into the fight, they were going to fight with the kids, all the boys, we were all there standing. And he started fighting and I noticed immediately that he was losing the fight. And I jumped in without any hesitations and started. That’s when I started beating the crap out of the other guy. Orlando, when he found out about it, had come over to see what had happened. And when he found out what I had done, his whole (inaudible), in other words, whatever [00:36:00] rivalry existed between us sort of ended right at that point because I had defended his brother, his younger brother, and we started hanging around together. And very rapidly, because we hung around the Armitage area, we’re hanging around with a whole bunch of, I want to say with want of a better word, the white kids in the neighborhood. JJ: So, you and Orlando were hanging out. ADR: Right, I mean Orlando. And there was another guy named Sal [Mineo?] that was hanging around the area. He’s the one that kind of, we began to feel sort of with 21 �the white kids, that we felt awkward with them. We really didn’t have-- I mean, we had a lot of things in common with him. And then there was a lot of things that we did not have in common. In other words, we felt a little bit of the prejudice that existed, sometimes unspoken. But [00:37:00] we knew it was there. And unlike, I don’t know about other Hispanics what I mean when I look back at those things certainly because we were more-JJ: Was it prejudice or what would you call it? ADR: The what now? JJ: Was it a prejudice thing or was it just different nationality? ADR: Mostly I would have to say they were mostly Irish. JJ: No, I’m saying, was it, you said you felt awkward. What made you feel awkward? ADR: It’s a good question. Sometimes you just know, you feel things, what they call the gut feeling. Okay. They didn’t have, let me put it this way. Orlando, [00:38:00] myself, I mean, growing up, we were not the timid type individuals. I mean, we were challenged or something would occur. Obviously, we weren’t afraid to, whoever confronted us to fight back. JJ: Was Mineo the same way or --? ADR: The what now? JJ: Mineo, how was he-- ADR: Mineo hung around with him. And Mineo was more knowledgeable at that point, obviously about gangs. When I say that, it’s a nice way of saying, I mean that he was prone to be doing things, whatever those things meant. 22 �JJ: Because actually, I first met Mineo at Franklin school over by Sedgwick and by Cabrini-Green. And he had a Puerto Rican gang there. So, he was already in a gang there. And then I saw him [00:39:00] on Maud, he had another gang there before he got together with the Young Lords. ADR: Right, but in hanging out in here-JJ: Is that what you mean? That he had-- ADR: Well, kind of a mix in that there were other older, a couple other individuals. We came, what started the whole thing when we decided to create the group along with the help of Sal Mineo, was that I got into a fight with one of the older white kids in the neighborhood. And it was a situation where I had come up with my bike and I’ve been riding it, and I stopped on it, and the guy was like, “Get the fuck off the back of my ride.” And I said, “No, you’re not.” And obviously the guy was older than me, and that led into a fight. Mineo jumped in, [00:40:00] kind of saving my ass from getting my ass kicked pretty. I mean, I was fighting an older guy. I wasn’t going to win the fight, obviously. But he jumped in. Orlando was there too. So that kind of made us think, and as I said, it was a gut feeling that we had. It wasn’t something that was openly said, but it was like we felt that we didn’t belong there. So, we talked about it and we said we wanted to start a group of our own. Knowing what you’re telling but it made sense that Mineo provided the means to create the group. And then we got in touch with -- there was Fermin. I mean, from school you had Fermin, Benny, some of the other guys that we had gotten together and said, “Yeah, we need,” -- I know that you came in later prior to the group. 23 �JJ: I actually came in, I was at the first meeting. ADR: Okay. [00:41:00] But what I mean, when we got, prior to having the first meeting, the ones where we had gone together. JJ: Oh yeah. You guys were in school together. ADR: We had gotten together. JJ: At that time, I was at St. Teresa’s ADR: And gotten together. We were talking about it when they came in there. So initially when we had gotten together with Mineo was-JJ: I remember you guys-- ADR: Fermin, Benny, because we were in the same school we were in. JJ: You used to come to St. Teresa’s, which was right next door. St. Teresa’s was a block away from Mulligan. ADR: Well, yeah. JJ: You guys used to come to St. Teresa’s. ADR: What now? JJ: Do you remember coming to St. Teresa’s and waving at the window? ADR: I’ll talk about that in a minute. (laughs) But we, that’s when I said, we’re all in public school. You were attending Catholic school at that time. So that’s what I’m saying. Benny, Fermin, myself, Orlando -- Benny as I recall, was not in school. JJ: David Rivera was there and there was his cousin, Orlando. ADR: I don’t [00:42:00] recall. And then he’s the one that brought Gilbert. JJ: I remember Gilbert. 24 �ADR: Gilbert was an older guy. He hung around with a lot of the Blacks from the Cabrini projects, and he’s the one that brought a guy over. JJ: He and Mineo were friends. They were from the same gang, right? That’s what it was. They were connected. ADR: Right. And around that time, when you had come in as part of, during that time, we used to go out there and taunt you because we used to go in front of the school when you were in school, and we would be calling you out when you were at St. Teresa’s because of the way the glass is, when we’d go down to the school to try to get you out. I don’t know if that got you in trouble or not, but I know that we used to do that to you when you were in school. So, from that, Gilbert set up a meeting with some Blacks. [00:43:00] They turned out to be the Cobras. During that meeting, that particular representative came and told us about socalled facts of life about, because we created, we called ourselves at the very beginning, we called ourselves the Egyptian Cobras. JJ: Egyptian Lords, the Egyptian Lords. ADR: The Egyptian Lords. JJ: Yeah, because you had the Egyptian Cobras and the Vice Lords. ADR: Okay, JJ: So, we tried to unite both. ADR: You’re right. I stand corrected on that -- the Egyptian Lords, because we like the word Lords, and we were, so we create… Now, he told us that once we became part of the gang, we were part of the Cobras, one of their branches, were bound to serve, supposedly for life. This is the Black mentality during that era. And that 25 �was that there were only three ways. The three reasons that you left to [00:44:00] stop being a part of the Cobras or any of the branches was that if you went into the service, you were up. If you’re married. And the third way is, if you die and you got killed. Now looking back, it was obvious why they chose those two things. The guy was married, having a family or whatever reasons. It was no longer considered, in other words, to be part of a gang member, though they did have, if the women submitted themselves to the group, the same rules applied to them. But it was a total different, I think we were too young to understand certain things at that point of what that meant to me. I realized now, if you look back, there would’ve been prostitution because anybody, any of the women that would’ve been coming in would basically to serve the needs of the males and whatever means and enterprises that they would’ve had about making money. [00:45:00] Now, I do know that when we created that, Gilbert, the one that informed us that the Cobras was basically, for all purposes that was done with, that wasn’t functioning anymore. I found out in the service, when I went into the Army, what really had happened. And that was because in the service, as a matter of fact, when I went in, there was the number of, a couple of Playboys. I mean, I realized the guys that were coming into the service, those particular from Chicago, were part of gangs. And in my -JJ: Most of, (inaudible) oh, so if you were -- ADR: Yeah. And in my group -- yeah, in my squad -JJ: They were a gang problem in Chicago, right? That’s what you’re saying. 26 �ADR: Yes. I mean, the people that when I enlisted all, and I’ll get into that, but I mean, the point is that, going back to connect the two things that I learned. [00:46:00] When I went in my platoon, there were a number of Blacks, not just a couple. There were a number of Blacks, but there was two or three from the south side, and that had been part of the Cobra gang. JJ: Part of the Egyptian Cobras. ADR: Right. And one of the guys told me what had occurred that I didn’t know it at the time, what had occurred at the prior years when we had become part of the Cobras. All he knew was that I was a Young Lord. When he found out that I had -- from the north side, they tended to look at us different -- but he’s the one that told me that the Vice Lords were the ones that had basically destroyed the Cobras. What had happened was that he said that, and it would’ve been in the early 1960s when I was think our time, maybe 1960, [00:47:00] I don’t know if it was 1961, 1962 or somewhere around that area. Anyway, in the south side around 63rd Street, on a Saturday, and one of the boulevards or the street, wherever this had occurred, the Vicers at that time was the younger group, aggressive. That was growing up, challenging the Cobras in their territory and the fighting that was going on. The Cobras were the older, that were into prostitution, whatever illegal enterprises that they had, but primarily would’ve been prostitution. And I don’t think so much because at that time, drugs was not that, I mean, it existed, but not as heavily as it would become later. JJ: So they were into-- ADR: But they were into drugs, whereas the Vicers were not at that time. 27 �JJ: But they were into an enterprise. ADR: Cobras were already into drugs. JJ: No, but I’m saying they had an enterprise. They weren’t-- ADR: They had what? JJ: They weren’t just fighting for protection. [00:48:00] They were trying to run the prostitution game. ADR: Right. JJ: Okay. ADR: All right. And whatever. And as I said, I don’t think the drug trades were that big, but it existed probably the nickel and dime type business, type of business. They were at the very level. JJ: So, what was the purpose of the Young Lords? Why did-- ADR: Well, the point is that when the Vice Lords in the area, I’m just trying to explain the situation, the way it was created. The Vicers were at that time were not into drugs. They were, I mean, obviously they wanted to be in, the thing is that they killed three or four guys, three of the leaders, four of the leaders in daylight, which was a big deal for that time that they shot them down and killed them on the streets. Instead of waiting in the dark or finding some other place. They did this in broad daylight, took down, [00:49:00] which put, obviously created a shock for the Cobras when they got down like that. I also found out interestingly enough, that the leader of the Cobras was actually a Puerto Rican guy. Black Puerto Rican. I didn’t know. Yeah, that’s what he was-- I was told by the Black guys. He said the guy, we known that he was a Puerto Rican. Actually, he was 28 �Puerto Rican, Black Puerto Rican, which you can remember Gilbert was the same thing. We used to, at the beginning we all identified Gilbert as being Black. But in fact, Gilbert was a Black Puerto Rican, and I don’t think, if you recall, Gilbert didn’t see himself as Hispanic. He saw himself as a Black, if you recall. JJ: Right. ADR: All right. So regardless of that, I mean, those are the things that existed during that time. So we went, when we did (inaudible), knowing that we were no longer part of the Cobras, we didn’t [00:50:00] know what happened. We weren’t aware of what happened. All we know is that Cobras were no longer in existence or the branch, whatever came down. We then decided to go on our own because we know we could not be part of the Paragons. We could not be part of the Black Eagles. Because they didn’t want us. That forced us to create what we said, where we find ourselves to create our own group. And we had a meeting about that as to what we were going to call ourselves. You were part of that along with the Orlando, Fermin, and the rest of us. Now, the original, what you refer to as the original Young Lords, we’re all the same age. You had also, remember, you have Carlos, Raymond’s brother. [00:50:40] JJ: Okay. ADR: Part of the, some of the other guys. But there were basically seven of us that created the group, and we were all born on the same year. We’re months apart from each other. JJ: Nineteen forty-- ADR: Nineteen forty-eight. 29 �JJ: Nineteen forty-eight. [00:51:00] ADR: The eight year-- we’re all in, born in 1948. JJ: We should have called ourselves the 48ers. (laughter) I’m just kidding. ADR: Well, anyway, we did it up around Gray Center at night with one of the social workers where we were, that we had met, and we decided on our name. We came up with the name, the Young Lords. JJ: Who was the social worker? ADR: Huh? JJ: Who was the, do you remember the social worker? ADR: Who? JJ: Do you remember who the social worker was that met us there? ADR: All we know is that we all wanted to marry her. JJ: Oh, it was a woman. ADR: A woman. A girl. She was in her early twenties. JJ: I thought you were going to say John [Tardy?]. ADR: Not the guy that was in the room we met in. She-- we were all, we used to go there just to go to look at her. Remember? JJ: I remember that now. ADR: Remember the election of 1963 when Kennedy visited that school? JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that. ADR: He did. JJ: Okay, so that was the Arnold Upper Grade Center. ADR: And it was in Chicago he had visited. 30 �JJ: The Arnold Upper Grade Center. ADR: Right. He [00:52:00] had visited the school. I’m not sure if it was actually him or the brother, but I know it was one of the, whether it was Robert or Kennedy himself that visited, but it was one of the -- that I know he visited the school. JJ: One of the Kennedys? ADR: Yeah. At nighttime. Not at daytime. It was during nighttime that he attended the-JJ: Now how did we get from, I’m going to get back to this, but how did we get -- the neighborhood is all white, mostly white, right? How do we get all of a sudden all these Puerto Ricans and Mexicans in there? ADR: We were mixed. We lived in the neighborhood. JJ: We were mixed. ADR: Yeah. We lived in the neighborhood with them. JJ: We were spread apart. We weren’t together. ADR: I mean, different houses. It’s not like we were all together. I mean, Orlando, as I recall, was in the same block that I lived, but he was further south of-JJ: You were on Fremont. He was in Bissell. You were in Fremont. [00:53:00] He was in Bissell. I was on Dayton. ADR: Correct. I’m trying to think if he was in Fremont. Yeah, correct. I stand corrected. You’re right. Okay. Benny was also in Bissell, but he was closer to-he lived closer to Armitage. Okay. Where Orlando had a house-JJ: Where was Fermin? Where did Fermin live? ADR: Fermin lived on Clifton, which I -- where later, which is West. 31 �JJ: Okay. And Carlos [Montañez?] lived on Halsted. Halsted and Willow. ADR: Where? JJ: Halsted and Willow. Okay. Carlos Montañez. So, we had all the streets covered. We had-- ADR: Well, I mean, the point is that almost all the guys that lived within the neighborhood, they lived in different, I mean, it was a mixed group with nobody in there, but we were still very much the minority in that time. JJ: Well, because I remember a lot of them, because I mean, my mother [00:54:00] was doing catechism classes for the-- ADR: Wait, what I’m trying to say, you didn’t have a flight, as opposed to when Blacks moved into a neighborhood during that era. If Blacks came into a particular area, you’d have the whites immediate leaving and masses quickly dispersing some of the neighborhood. Armitage and Halsted, it’s a matter of fact, if you look at the statistically, yes, it became heavily -- not heavily -- it became Hispanic, but not predominantly Hispanic. And actually then the trend reversed itself, and then it became white again. JJ: Okay. But all of a sudden it started flooding though, right? Or no, because I remember Halsted and Dickens, that restaurant, it used to be all whites. ADR: Correct. JJ: And then overnight it was all Hispanic. ADR: No, it took years. It wasn’t really the-JJ: It took years. [00:55:00] It took years. But it cleaned up. It became-- 32 �ADR: Right. It changed. It changed gradually, and then it went back. It reversed itself and went back. But the reality, you’re thinking about that the neighborhood never really, now it went through a rough period, but that rough period, you have to recognize it. What the-JJ: Well, I think at nighttime you didn’t see too many whites in the street. ADR: Look, I think what messed up the neighborhood. JJ: I mean, I remember walking through there night, I didn’t see too many, too many whites. ADR: What messed up the neighborhood was drugs. JJ: Okay. ADR: Okay. That’s what brought-JJ: When did that come in? When did the drugs come in? ADR: That would’ve been in the early, the early 1970s. JJ: Early 1970s. ADR: Okay. JJ: But we’re jumping from 1950 to 1970, so I’m trying to-- ADR: There [00:56:00] was no, that’s what I’m saying. JJ: In the 1960s, what was going on in the 1960s? What type of population? From 1960 to 1969. ADR: By 1968, we’re going to go back a little bit. JJ: Okay. ADR: In 1968, the area was more-- there were a lot more Hispanics, but there was certainly no flight of whites in the area. 33 �JJ: Not 1968, right? ADR: There was no flight. They were there. JJ: Okay. ADR: They were there. The [voting?] majority, I mean, you have to look at the whole, you can’t just look at-JJ: Do you not remember on Dayton and Willow and those areas? ADR: See, you’re looking at small enclaves, if I’m using the right terminology, small areas that existed. Because if you take a look at who ran, who was the-- not for any other reason, but what was the color of the skin of the ward alderman? JJ: The alderman, McCutcheon? ADR: Okay. JJ: Yeah. He was white. I mean, all of ’em were white before it was [00:57:00] (inaudible). ADR: All right, but the population, how do you think they were in there? And [Patty?] was-JJ: Only white, one of your corrupt whites. ADR: Fine. JJ: Criminals. ADR: I’m not going to dispute that they were the corrupt whites or not. But the point is that no-JJ: It was a white community, that’s what I’m saying. When we moved in, it was an entirely, completely white community. ADR: Well, I’m not trying to argue with you. I’m just trying to show systematically. 34 �JJ: I don’t want to argue. ADR: No, no, no. JJ: This is your story. ADR: Look, one of the things that did occur, obviously what you refer to as the urban removal of the Hispanics is that Daley succeeded, where you did have the, I’m using the word enclaves, if I’m using it properly, that existed where those buildings were turned down, torn down, torn. You think that happened-- that would’ve been [00:58:00] the area of example. There were like two, three blocks on Sheffield as you reach Lincoln Avenue. That would’ve been south of Lincoln and Wrightwood. In other words, where you got Wrightwood, you got Sheffield that became a park. My question to you is what buildings were there? All buildings, housing buildings with multiple units, predominantly Hispanics, Puerto Ricans, living on that. I take it to Halsted, which is the land where we ended up in. Halsted the same thing, where housing buildings came down. If you take a look at all the areas with a building, if you go back and take a look at those places, all those buildings that were in there, where you would’ve had what you considered to be a major -- I’m looking at back in terms of looking backwards. I can see what occurred. And so the areas that got torn down, that [00:59:00] became parks that became different, they were completely obliviated were areas where you have predominantly a lot of Puerto Ricans or Hispanics where they got rid of them. They didn’t get rid of anything else. If you go around in there, you didn’t see masses of homes being torn down. Why? JJ: They didn’t tear them down. 35 �ADR: Because the whites were living in those houses. JJ: Right, right. ADR: Oh, no, no. JJ: There were always whites there. No, I give you that. ADR: They were the whites. They, Daley was not about the mass with the whites, with the voters. How much is the other one? JJ: Puerto Ricans were not the only ones living there, but they did have a large concentration. ADR: Look, the point I’m trying to make is that they came in there during that time. If a Hispanic lived in a house on a flat, in other words, the houses were what we call flat, rental of a flat, your home is not going to get torn down. JJ: But I’m saying from Dayton and North Avenue to Dayton [01:00:00] and Willow. ADR: That was different. JJ: That was all Puerto Rican. The whole-- ADR: Look, they needed the Boulevard, the extension of the-- my point is that if you go back where they made the move, in other words here, you have-JJ: You had gypsies on Burling. It was kind of each neighborhood. They had a little grouping of people for a while. And then the whole neighborhood there were Puerto Ricans, like everywhere, all around, all through the neighborhood. But they were not the only ones. ADR: You had more Puerto Ricans living on buildings. JJ: They increased. 36 �ADR: With these multiple units. It might’ve been like, let’s say 30, 40 apartments, three, four story. No higher than four floors in most of these buildings. But there were multiple units in there. So roughly in a four building that was large, might’ve been 30, 40 units in it. And if you go back and [01:01:00] you look back, that’s why I said, if you look at Halsted, okay, other rows would’ve been east of on Halsted street between Armitage and Dickens, where we had the hotdog stand. You would recall there was nothing but buildings, multiple unit buildings there. That went down back of, take a look at the-JJ: You’re talking about the whole block. ADR: The whole block got knocked down with multiple units. JJ: Multiple units of Puerto Ricans. ADR: Take it back up further north. JJ: That was where People’s Park. ADR: There were multiple units-JJ: Later, People’s Park later-- it became People’s Park later. ADR: Okay. And not only that, but you take a look at in the back of the other one that got where they had a lot of more buildings also. And then the whole area that got taken down would’ve been by Lincoln. Lincoln over there near the hospital. That would’ve been almost directly south of Waller High School. But there was another area where you had that, I’m trying to [01:02:00] remember. That’s all-it’s like a park now there that had all been knocked down. JJ: So, wait a minute. Are you telling me that there was selectively picking certain buildings? 37 �ADR: Yeah, he selectively was able to target the areas where you have more, if you take a look at and recall, man, use your memory because you need to help me out with this. Remember, let’s go back to Sheffield. Wrightwood. And you got Lincoln Avenue. That’s a park now. That whole section, remember that all being, all those multiple unit buildings that were there? JJ: Exactly. I remember. ADR: I don’t how many blocks, three or four blocks. JJ: Puerto Ricans. ADR: All Puerto Ricans. JJ: And there were some Hillbilly in there too, because Cisco-- ADR: It doesn’t matter. But the point is that went down. JJ: It was [poor, yeah, it was poor?]. ADR: Okay. If you take a look at those multiple units and all the places that existed, they’re all gone. The only thing that never went [01:03:00] down, I mean, I’m not saying they didn’t touch the house in certain areas, predominantly. He never went after areas where you had houses built. I’m not saying he didn’t knock that down on the north side. Very minimal. Okay. Very minimal that that was done. It wasn’t done in masses. It wasn’t done--whole blocks were never, and you can’t recall. You can’t even pinpoint to me where you would’ve had all the owners of a particular block that had your, they had houses that got knocked down. It didn’t exist. Didn’t happen. JJ: No, no. You’re correct. Because in Lincoln Park there was a lot of rehabilitation of the houses versus trying to knock ’em down. They didn’t want to knock down 38 �that many units. But now what you’re saying that’s significant is that the units that they were knocking down were Hispanic units. ADR: Right. JJ: Is that what you’re saying? I’m not putting words in your mouth. ADR: No, no, that’s correct. That’s exactly what I’m saying. [01:04:00] The ones that went down were predominantly Hispanic units in there. And the urban renewal when it was done. JJ: Where I lived at in Dickens, they didn’t go down. They remodeled it, but they raised our rents and we had to move. So, it was the same thing too. But I know what you’re saying. ADR: Well, with the multiple units, I mean, what are the costs of the buildings when they went back up? JJ: Right? ADR: I mean, couldn’t (inaudible). JJ: They couldn’t. No, but they did knock those down is what I’m saying. ADR: They weren’t, and I would correct you on that, they’re not really multiple units using today’s terminology would’ve been a townhouse or a condominium is what it ends up being. Big difference from what you consider to be a multiple unit. Big, big, big difference between the two. So, you can, I mean, to me is you’re using wrong terminology if you’re referring to these areas that were rebuilt with, units [01:05:00] were not the kind of units that existed prior to. JJ: What type of units existed? 39 �ADR: They were minimized. And as I said, they were using today’s terminology, it would’ve been what we call now condominiums or townhouses that were put back in their places where they did this. JJ: They made condominiums and townhouses. But I mean, what were they before? What were they before they were townhouses? What type of structures? ADR: Well, we never had, remember there was no-JJ: What type of buildings were they before they became townhouses and condominiums, you said they were multiple units? ADR: Multiple units on a building. It’s like the house, like the building next door to me. Okay. I don’t know how many units, it’s got to be -- it’s three, four, three or four floors. You’re got an apartment where maybe one bedroom type. So, I would not be surprised if there’s 40, 50 units. [01:06:00] And that’s what I’m saying, what it existed in the area ended where you had 40, 60 units in a building. JJ: Right. ADR: And all those places got knocked down. JJ: And those where the Hispanics or Latinos were. ADR: Exactly. JJ: Okay. Okay. So now did you have to move out at all or no? ADR: What now? JJ: Did you have to move out at all, or no? ADR: Did I? JJ: Did you have to move out of Lincoln Park? Were you forced out or no? ADR: No. 40 �JJ: Okay. You moved out. ADR: No, I moved out because of the problems we got into. One of my parents-- I wasn’t aware that what ended up-- now you’re moving forward into what occurred in later years. JJ: Okay. No, go ahead. ADR: Why I ended up (inaudible)? What happened was we used to steal cars. You know that. [01:07:00] And while we weren’t aware, there was an Italian kid that used to hang around, an older guy. We used to steal the cars for joy rides if for no other reason. At that time, most of the time we had not grown apart at all. We were in a different kind of a situation as what we were now then as the Young Lords. Orlando and myself tended to drift together, always being together. You sometimes would be with us, Fermin and Benny would always be together. The point was that if somebody, and planning the dynamics of our, I hate that word. I don’t explain it, but what I’m trying to say is that if somebody saw us, they thought that we were not together. And it occurred too many times throughout those early years because they thought [01:08:00] they didn’t see us together other than when we had a meeting or something that we would attend the meeting. We’d be there at the meetings, we would meet at the YMCA or other areas where we needed to meet when we were there. But I can recall as many times, I mean I didn’t remember Division [Pete?] trying to challenge us and there’s other people, almost all the ones that ended up becoming our friends later in life thought that they could take over the Young Lords because they thought we were separate and they would come to-- 41 �JJ: They actually had a branch of the Young Lords (inaudible). ADR: Right, I mean, because they wanted to take over becoming the president (inaudible). And then so we, the seven of us and I always refer to this (inaudible), but we were the ones that dictated without realizing I’m not looking back and anything that we would say this is the way it’s going to be, but they never saw us together. We were not hanging around together with each other. As I said, we tended to differ apart from each other doing whatever we were doing on a daily basis. [01:09:00] That type of thing to me led to believe that people that came in and said, “I got an opportunity. These guys ain’t together. I’m going to take over.” Thinking they could do that. To their surprise, any time they would try to do that, it’s basically, “What the hell are you doing? You’re not taking over. We’re running things. And that’s the way it is.” That meant that most of the time, I’m not looking for any other reason, but is that Orlando ended up beating the shit out of the guys. I mean, those things would occur when the fight get started. Before we could say anything. Orlando didn’t hesitate, he was like a rabbit, he’d fucking jump and beat the crap out of, you know, and that would end the whole -- things like that, that would occur. So anyway, the thing was that the referring to this thing about the cars in which you were talking with the service that he had this Italian kid that was hanging around with [01:10:00] us, older guy, and the only reason, obviously he was hanging around with us because he knows we were using cars for joyrides. I mention that because we used to go up to Evanston. We used to drive, I mean, we would take out a car from the Lincoln area, we’d steal a car, go up north and then steal another car 42 �and bring it back. We never came back and said it’s not like-- we knew better than to ride a car. We would never drive a car for more than a day. Not even a day. I mean, if we went one destination, we would dump that car. We’re not stupid enough because we knew the police and somebody in there that would know about it, they might have. Even the technology that exists today didn’t exist then, we weren’t stupid enough to take a chance that the plates of somebody else, that the police would know about it, that there was a stolen vehicle. So, what we would do is we would steal a shitload of vehicles. So, on a typical day for joyriding, we might end up stealing two, three cars. JJ: [01:11:00] And this was a fad that was going on, right? This was like a fad. How long did it last? This taking of cars for joyriding? ADR: Well, remember I’m jumping into the future from going back from the early end. When we were a little older, we ended up, we used to go to Evanston because we ended up meeting people that we helped out on a fight, which I get later on. JJ: We had a branch later on, we had a branch. ADR: You call it a branch, it really wasn’t branch, but people we had gotten to know, they become part of the Young Lords and we didn’t really-- we went out there because we liked the girls from the north side. JJ: I was going to say-- ADR: That was our motive. Our motive was the women. So, we went up there and so we didn’t have money, not even to get on the train. We used to know how to sneak into the train, but we didn’t want to go on trains. So, we would steal a car, go up north, be out there with them, and on return back we would steal [01:12:00] 43 �another car and bring it back over to the neighborhood. All right. What we didn’t know was that that guy that sometimes used to hang around wanted to know when we were dumping the cars, they were taking those vehicles that we had stolen and taking them into what is not what I would call it, a shop where they would strip them and just did whatever they did with their parts. They got caught and it would’ve been whatever it was. I know one thing I’m precise is about the date because of when it occurred would’ve been in late February or the very beginning of March. I take it back when that happened, because I know the date when it occurred, because it’s something that’s a significant date, was on Friday, the 13th when it occurred, March the 13th. And I never forgot that date. When the guy had been picked up and [01:13:00] obviously with the day before, we don’t know. I don’t remember when he had ended. We know that he gets picked up. We know they come after us on the 13th, we had a gang fight that night, as a matter of fact, with some other guys in the back of Waller. It was going to be a gang fight. But we already had stolen a vehicle that sometimes we used to use in gang fights to ram the other vehicles from our posts inside. And at any rate, I got the message and somebody in there that we already knew and the word had gone out quickly. So that time that the cops had been asking, they were looking for us. And when I called home, my mother got on the phone and told me the police had been over here. And obviously my father was going to be stupid enough, was pissed off at me and said, because they already told him that they were looking for us we were stealing cars. I wasn’t about to go home. [01:14:00] I knew better. I mean at that point. So, Orlando, myself and the Irish guy we 44 �called, that was part of our group back then, Jerry, we call him Mad Irish. We decided not to at that point. We said, nobody’s going home. We’re going to get a big, we weren’t worrying about the goddamn police, we were worrying about goddamn parents beating the shit out of us. So, we didn’t go home. And the bottom line was that at that point, Orlando, the girl that he liked, talked him out of it from the north side, talked him out of going with us. When we took off the mentioning the group, these were the Cubans part of the Cuban group that had come over the first wave of immigrants that came from Cuba when Castro had taken over. To us, to our surprise, you got to remember these were white skinned Cubans. [01:15:00] You couldn’t tell the blonde blue eye and all that kind of shit. My thing here is this, they had told us that when we ran away, we went over there to stay over there with them, that we could go to Miami with their family down there. We told them what had happened, blah, blah, and that bullshit. So, Orlando got talked out of it by the girl and me and Jerry decided we’re not going. We took off. We ended up in-- we did make it all the way into Miami. We did spend a couple of days in jail in Georgia, and that’s another story I don’t want to at the moment, but we ended up getting picked up in Dublin, Georgia. At the time we were minors, we were put in jail and then they let us go. Anyway, all that was over. JJ: So, we were going jail all over the country. I went to jail in Saint Louis. [01:16:00] ADR: You want me to tell you about that? 45 �JJ: Oh, you know about the St. Louis one too, huh? What about Saint Louis? No, no. I want you to tell me about that. I’m sorry. We were going to jail all over the country because I went to jail in Saint Louis, that’s what I’m saying. ADR: You want to know about Georgia? JJ: Yeah. Tell me about Georgia. ADR: Okay. What happened was that, all right, we stole a car here and we took that vehicle. We’d had no money, really, nothing to speak of really. But like I said, because we were trying to make it into Miami and staying with the relatives from the people from the north side. And we ran out of money with the vehicle that we had stolen. So, we would try to sell the tire, the spare tire and all that. We had no money whatsoever. So, we had to dump the car. I would have to say near Dublin, Georgia. All I know is that the town is just something that [01:17:00] stayed in-- the name stayed with me. The town exists: Dublin, Georgia. We were hitchhiking at that point. We started hitchhiking and we got picked up. They saw us hitch, I mean you got to think back then we were what, 16 years old or yeah, 16 years old. We got leather jackets and in Georgia we stood out. In town we had these shoes with the boots like boots, shoes that we used to have that. They used to be the style back then. Yeah. JJ: Boots, shoes, I remember. Yeah. ADR: And we stood out. So, the cops picked us up. JJ: Half a boot. ADR: Exactly. We get picked up and by the police in Georgia, in Dublin, Georgia. And they took us in. And so, the story was that when they put us [01:18:00] in, they 46 �wanted to know who we were, blah, blah, blah. And me and Jerry concocted this story. I mean, it was funny now that I looked at it. It wasn’t funny back then, but we said we were cousins. You looking at a Latino and you’re looking at a white where the co-mix in the races wasn’t that back in those areas, particularly in those times. So, they’re trying to figure out how in the hell can you be cousins? We said, “Well, our mothers are sisters. One of ’em married a Hispanic and the other one married a white.” That’s why obviously that was believable. And what we did is when they picked us up, we got rid of our wallets immediately. Okay. We dumped them into the backseat of the underneath, not just with the (inaudible) underneath the vehicle. We had the bad luck that they were changing vehicles, they were getting vehicles at that [01:19:00] time. They picked us up during the day, they didn’t pick us up, it wasn’t at night. It was during the day they picked us up. So, they take us in to question us. They want to know who we are, and they’re trying to find out. So, we’re not giving them any information. We’re making a bogus -- we were settled on the name. We weren’t using our real names. And as I said, when we tell them, so they’re trying to find who we are. They don’t know. No identification, no nothing. But because they were changing vehicles or maybe one of the police officers got wise enough, might’ve decided to go back. What they told us is that they found, they found our wallets because they were changing the vehicles and they took the seats out and anyway, they found the wallet. So obviously they got two different names. They know now we’re not related to each other. When they called Chicago, obviously they were told those two guys are wanted by the police in Chicago. And they 47 �made the check. Obviously they would’ve called the Chicago Police Department, wanted to find out who [01:20:00] we were. So, they find out we were wanted out of that grand theft. They had us for grand theft. Remember they claim at that point we had stolen 300 vehicles and chased us down. So, the police now, and me, I always had a smart-JJ: You’d taken 300 vehicles? ADR: What? JJ: Had you taken 300 vehicles? Or were they trying to clean the records? ADR: They had us that in the given period of time that we have been doing this, that’s not me. And I’m not making, I’m just using the number. Whether it was exaggerated or not, I can’t account. I think to some degree it was exaggerated. I know that we were stealing on an average two vehicles a day, sometimes three. Very unlikely that we end up stealing four vehicles in one day. But on average, we were stealing two vehicles because everywhere we go, we would always take-JJ: How did you take ’em? How did you take the vehicle? How did you take the vehicles? [01:21:00] ADR: Well, we usually picked the Chevys because they were easy to break into. JJ: The Chevys. ADR: They had the small window. There was a little panel window that at that time, the design of the vehicle that we would use a screwdriver that would flip when we stick the screwdriver, flip it. That was your job. We used to have you-JJ: I had a job? 48 �ADR: Yeah. That was a job to break the panel because you were white. It was in there. JJ: [laughter] ADR: Yeah. You’re forget what we used to have, you were white, you were in there. You’d go out there, get near the vehicle, walk like you were walking, stick it in and you would pop it. You would keep walking. You would not -- yeah, exactly. Then either me-JJ: So, I would pop the door and ignition-- ADR: --and have the door open. But you would do it very quickly. You would pop it and make sure that the door was open and keep walking. I mean, you would not stand there. You would walk away from the vehicle. Once we know that the vehicle, I mean, at that point it was open, [01:22:00] either Orlando or me would come in. I had the screwdriver as much as Orlando, but said we would go in and we would pop the ignition and start the vehicle immediately. Because at the time, all you had to do was break the cylinder for the ignition and all we do is use and twist it and that would make the connections to get the, that was whatever the mal-- it wasn’t a malfunction. That’s the way that designed because it made it the easiest. JJ: I remember popping ignitions too. ADR: Right.(inaudible) That was easy. JJ: But that was done with the Chevys and Buicks you could do that. ADR: Well, that thing ended when we would stick the thing in there, we had to break it. All we had to do was stick it in and break it. Sometimes you would have to knock 49 �off the whole thing, that cylinder for the ignition. Sometimes you had to be knocked out, all of it out. But if it was broken and it didn’t make the contact, we would know that we would knock off immediately the cylinder and then stick the screwdriver where [01:23:00] it would make some kind of, always made a contact where you could get the vehicle started. JJ: But anyway, it was-- ADR: That was done within three minutes. JJ: And they were like two a day average. Two every day average. ADR: Yeah. Because we were never-- we never wanted to, one of the things that we were different and we were not stupid. What I’m trying to say is that-JJ: But why so many? Why so many? Why so many vehicles? Why so many vehicles? ADR: Because we were not stupid. That’s what I’m trying to say. We were not stupid to think that we would have a vehicle and that it was a smart thing to drive that vehicle all day long. We knew better. So, we didn’t give a shit about how many vehicles we stole. It didn’t matter to us. We were just using it, we were not using it. JJ: How old were we? How old were we? ADR: We had to be around sixteen years old. Fifteen, sixteen years old when we were doing that. But as I said, the important thing-JJ: [01:24:00] Did we ever drive these vehicles to a party-- ADR: I was the driver. 50 �JJ: --or something like that, or anything. Well, I remember taking them to the dances. We used to go, everybody used to show off their car at the dance. Do you remember that or no? ADR: Give me that again. JJ: I remember going to Saint Teresa’s to their dances with a stolen car. I remember that. ADR: We did that. We didn’t do that too often. JJ: Okay, all right. ADR: There was never any need because as I said, it was a lot easier. See, one of the things that I want to emphasize that we were, that’s what we were never picked up by the police. I mean, we had close calls with actually getting away from the police. Sometimes it was this where we were shot at a number of times, trying to get away from the police in a stolen vehicle. But coming back, one of the reasons we knew better than to drive a vehicle too long is that we did not want to get spotted by the police and take a chance on being picked up with a stolen vehicle. [01:25:00] So that’s why we ended up stealing so many vehicles. Not because we were out there to break records or anything, but because we didn’t want to get picked up by the police. JJ: What other things did the Young Lords do? ADR: The what now? JJ: What other things did they do as a gang? ADR: Well, at that time, I think we learned from mistakes that we made. In other words, we didn’t like repeating the same mistake. If I’m correctly hearing your 51 �question, I mean, what other, one of the other things was the idea. For example, when we were all picked up, not you, because again, you were in a Catholic school. We had a gang fight at the [White Front?]. There was an Italian place, the pizzeria that was from the, what we called the White Front, further down the block on Halsted. JJ: The White Front we hung out at night, at nighttime. ADR: No, that was during daytime, we had this fight. This was during [01:26:00] school. And a fight -- however it got started, I know that the Black Eagles were involved and-JJ: They hung out. They hung out at the White Front, the Black Eagles. Everybody had their restaurant and the Black Eagles had the White Front. ADR: The Black Eagles hung around the White Front. JJ: Right. ADR: Then the whites went to the-JJ: Benny’s Pizzeria. ADR: The pizzeria, whatever the name was. I don’t remember at the moment. I don’t recall. I don’t know how the fight had gotten started, but we had gotten into the fight and beat the crap-JJ: But the Young Lords went into Benny’s Pizzeria. ADR: Yeah, we had gotten into the fight. We beat the crap out of the group inside the place. I mean, we-JJ: Inside their own restaurant? 52 �ADR: Right. Inside their own restaurant. We had gone in. We went there and beat the crap out of a number of the guys that were in there that were in high school and all that. So [01:27:00] when the police showed up and they were doing an investigation, they didn’t pick any, they weren’t able, because we all got away from at the point that that had occurred, we all had gotten away. So, we went back to school. This happened during lunchtime and lunchtimes were one hour from twelve o’clock to one o’clock. So, when we got back into school, one by one, they started calling the names of individuals where the police was with the principal. So, then they decided to go and open up our lockers, and in the lockers they found weapons. JJ: What kind of weapons? ADR: Blackjacks, things like that. A couple of knives. From that point, we said, “No more weapons.” What we did, the trick we used, and we even then, we didn’t liked it yet, because they found, remember they used to have, [01:28:00] what’s the name of the-- Maxwell Street, they used to sell knives. Remember the long, thin knives that we used to put in here? So, when the police would pet us, they couldn’t feel it because we put it around the grip on the pants. Well, even those, they had found those. So, we learned-JJ: Like switchblades or something. ADR: Right, the switchblades. We stopped-- we stopped using it, but we started using as a weapon and we became very well known for, that was the antenna. JJ: Car antennas. 53 �ADR: That’s when we started using, so we didn’t carry weapons after that it occurred. We got busted. JJ: There was a fight. You were just grabbing an antenna. ADR: Exactly. We had the antennas. We had ’em all over the place. JJ: Cut somebody with it or you could-- ADR: We learned the trick of how to break ’em real quickly with a, I don’t remember, but I know it was like a one or two twist. But we’d be able to break it off completely. Because you can’t just kind of-- remember [01:29:00] we’ve learned how to do that. I mean, just the step of-JJ: But also that was an element of surprise too, right? That was like a surprise to the other person that didn’t expect you to come up with an antenna, right? ADR: Exactly. JJ: Am I correct? ADR: But I mean, it’s a weapon where we needed to have the weapon. JJ: But it shocked the other person. They saw you. ADR: Right. I mean, we had the weapons to fight if we find ourselves. So, we didn’t, in other words, we stopped worrying about having to carry a knife or anything like that when we were confronted with another, when we would’ve a fight, and we also learned a number of things. We knew that if we were fighting the whites, our mentality was to always go for the face. We knew as soon as we drew blood, they would stop the fight. We had that mentality that the whites didn’t want to get their faces messed up. Doesn’t mean that every white was like that. But as a general rule, if we were in a fight, we were fighting the whites, we would always 54 �go for their faces with fists, [01:30:00] whatever, we were fighting them to try to draw blood immediately from them. We knew that they would not be able to stand that. With the Blacks, when we would fight the Blacks, we would go for their balls. We knew that it didn’t matter to them if we busted up their faces, they will continue to fight. So, for them-JJ: Were there a lot of fights with Blacks or not? Were there a lot of fights with Blacks? African Americans. ADR: We didn’t have too many fights with the Blacks, but we did have fights with Blacks. JJ: Right. Okay. ADR: Not as many, because we were not generally — to (inaudible), never ventured up north. Remember that, especially during that time, they stayed in their own turf. So, they were never really a challenge to any of us anything. But that doesn’t mean that we were also in any way that we were afraid of them. We were never afraid of them. And we had fights with them when if the occasion occurred that we had a fight with them, we would fight with them. But generally fight was with the groups within the neighborhood, [01:31:00] the Mohawk guys, the other groups, smaller groups in there, and from other areas in the cities. We started to branch out. But in order to get to that, typically, it wasn’t like you had a gang fight every day. What happened with the Young Lords, what was different about the Young Lords was that because we were the younger group, we were always trying to prove ourselves. So that meant unknown, now looking back, we always 55 �wanted to do the most damage. So, we were more aggressive when we were in a gang fight. JJ: We wanted to do the most damage, and we were all always trying to prove ourselves. What does that mean? What does prove yourself mean? ADR: Prove ourselves that to the Eagles and to the Paragons. JJ: What did we want to prove? What did we want to prove? ADR: I heard your word, but-JJ: Yeah, you said that we wanted to prove ourselves. ADR: Yes. JJ: [01:32:00] What did we want to prove? ADR: We wanted to prove ourselves to the Black Eagles and to the Paragons is what I said. JJ: Yeah, but why? ADR: Because we want to still in some way, maybe in our mentality we wanted to be part of them. JJ: You wanted to be like them. ADR: Exactly. JJ: So, they were our role models. The Paragons and the-- ADR: Correct. They were our role models that we looked up to them. JJ: So, we wanted to show them that we could fight like they could fight? ADR: The what now? JJ: What did we want to show them? That we could fight too, or --? 56 �ADR: That we were as good as they were. We thought that they were better. As you said, we looked up to them and we still wanted to be part of them. Other words, the Young Lords, I don’t think that we saw ourselves that the Young Lords would be a continuation. We didn’t-- never discussed it, never opened it. But I mean, the point is that in proving them once, was that our role model, as you said it in the correct word, were the Paragons and the Black Eagles. So, this [01:33:00] idea of the fighting was always to do the most damage, proving ourselves to them. JJ: What did we like about the Black Eagles? What did we like about it? What did we like about the Black Eagles and the Paragons? What did we like about them? ADR: The way they conducted themselves. JJ: How did they conduct themselves? ADR: That’s a set (inaudible) the fight, that the honor system there were strong physically. Women, I mean obviously because being a Black Eagle and all that, and not only from the Hispanic women, but the other women that were running there. So that was the whole idea as much as that thing with the Paragons. What broke us away from that, you’re bringing into another explanation of the time, of the area of what occurred was, involved you. We had invited, at that time, we were in a piece with [01:34:00] the Mohawk guys, and we had invited them to, at that time, during that area, there used to be dances every Friday. Sometimes those dances were conducted by the Black Eagles. Sometimes the Paragons, sometimes ourselves. We would have the dances at the YMCA and much like the West Side Story and the whites you’d have the one group on one 57 �corner, on one side of the wall, the other group on the other side of the wall. And that was true of the (inaudible) even. Obviously the whites did not show up in our dance. We had the dance typically in Spanish. But if you come into the dance, you would see the different group among Hispanic groups, the Flaming Eagles, I mean the Flaming Arrows hanging together. In other words, the groups would hang within each group’s that they be together. We had invited, during the peace treaty we had with the Mohawk guys, we had invited them. [01:35:00] They showed up to the dance. JJ: Who showed up? ADR: The Flaming-- the Mohawk guys. JJ: Okay. ADR: You weren’t there. That night, you were someplace else. I don’t know where you were. Like I said, we didn’t hang. As a group we never were always together, as I’ve tried to explain before. So, they had shown up to the dance. We had girls from the north side. I mean, we had a whole bunch of people. It was one of our better successful dances. Remember Ma? I forgot her last name. That used to make up-JJ: Mom [Aragon?]. ADR: Mom Aragon, (inaudible) Mom Aragon did the cooking, made the tacos and all that other stuff. JJ: Because her son was a Young Lord. ADR: Exactly. JJ: And then she wanted to-- 58 �ADR: Right. JJ: She wanted to take care of her daughter too, because her daughter was a Paragon or hung around with the Paragons. ADR: Right. And anyway, the thing was that at the dance, they showed up [01:36:00] and Paragons wanted to jump them. And we said no. JJ: Jump the Mohawk? ADR: The Mohawk guys. They wanted to jump the Mohawk guys. JJ: Now, was the Mohawk guys Black or --? ADR: No, when they were there, they didn’t know what was taking place. JJ: What nationality? What nationality was the Mohawk guys? ADR: The what now? JJ: What nationality? ADR: Whites. JJ: Oh, they were whites. ADR: Okay. They were whites. Okay. I can’t pin down their complete nationality. I don’t want to say. JJ: Okay. They were like from Saint Michael’s, that area. ADR: Exactly. Yes. The Saint Michael’s area. The point is that Ralph was there. I mean, I don’t remember people, but I know that when the thing in that we said no, we stopped the Paragons. And that pissed him off when they were told, “No, you’re not going to do that.” And Orlando had basically told [01:37:00] them to get the fuck out. And obviously that pissed him even more. They left. Unknown 59 �to us they returned to the hotdog stand. You show up by yourself, I mean, no big deal like anything else, and they jumped you. JJ: I was president at that time. That was when I was president of the group. ADR: Well, you went in there, you didn’t know what-JJ: I’m saying I was president of the group at that time. ADR: They were what? JJ: I was the president at that time of the group. ADR: I don’t recall that. JJ: Yeah, I was the president. That’s why they wanted to get me at that point. ADR: I don’t remember either. I know you got jumped and-JJ: No, I didn’t get jumped. Well, they wanted to jump me, but again, they were that respectful type. So, it was one person, Toothpick, that [stole?] on me. In other words, [01:38:00] he [stole?]. ADR: It was Crazy Johnny? JJ: Toothpick, he stole on me. In other words, I didn’t know where the puncher was. Well, he stole, stole on me. And then the other people got in the middle of it to stop the fights. They stopped the fights. ADR: But anyway, we heard about it when we were told, I don’t know how. We got told. JJ: But he stole on me. The other people stopped the fight. And then we didn’t fight. And I think that that’s what Orlando got mad about. ADR: Well, what happened was, I don’t know, I mean, is that when we left, we left immediately when we found out what had taken place, we ran back over to, 60 �literally, we were running from all the way from the, because we didn’t have no vehicles. It’s not like we had cars back then. We ran all the way back-JJ: From Isham YMCA and-- ADR: From YMCA over to the hotdog stand. JJ: North Avenue and [Larrabee?] to-- ADR: Right. And when we showed up, we were there. The one that stopped the fight, in my perspective, when the gang fight was about to get started, we showed [01:39:00] up and we were going to start fighting with the Paragons. Raymond Montañez, Carlos’s brother-JJ: Was a Paragons. ADR: --interfered because he was part of the Flaming Arrows. JJ: Was he Flaming Arrows? ADR: Yeah, he was a Flaming Arrow. JJ: Okay. ADR: He stopped it and he said, no. He says, because we all always, this is not good. So, he said, “Why don’t you guys have a fight? One guy from each side. So, Orlando immediately, there was no question he was going to be representing our side. Crazy Johnny--they thought he was going to beat the crap out of Orlando because Crazy Johnny had that name Crazy Johnny. And he was physically built a hell of a lot better than he started fighting Orlando. Don’t ask me how he did it, but within a couple of punches, he actually knocked down Crazy Johnny and he was going to end it there, but [01:40:00] they pulled him back. They said, it’s a fair fight. Johnny gets up again, starts fighting, knocked him down again. 61 �All right. At that point, it was like it ended, so they wanted to put another guy. Another guy was put to fight Orlando. Orlando took out, as I recall, Orlando must have beat the shit out of three or four of the Paragons that night. Never once -- I mean, I’m not saying he didn’t take punches, but in all the fighting in there, he took them down. Okay, when that happened, at that point, and I have perspective, we all realized, it’s like at that precise moment what Orlando had done, we had grown up. That’s when we said, “We don’t need the Black Eagles. We don’t need the Paragons. We’re better than they are.” And that’s when we decided to leave the neighborhood. JJ: And we went to-- ADR: Old Town. JJ: --(inaudible) and North Avenue where we had another branch. We had another branch. But I remember [01:41:00] that I went home that night and in the morning you guys came and picked me up in the morning and took me out of bed. Said hello to my mother, Orlando said hello to my mother because Orlando had been in her catechism class and so he knew my mother very well. Plus we would stay at each other’s houses. We didn’t live that far. And then I could believe you were with him or something like that. My face was all swollen from being stole. And I had told my mother I had fell down, but Orlando said that he wanted to talk to me. So my mother went to the bedroom and then Orlando said, “Let’s go.” In other words, we’re going to fight these people. So, it actually wasn’t at night. It was during the morning that we fought. ADR: The what now? 62 �JJ: It was the next morning that we fought that Orlando fought all those people. ADR: No, it was at nighttime. JJ: At nighttime too? ADR: It was at nighttime. No, it was at nighttime. That fight took place with Orlando. It took that night. It was that night. Oh, it was [01:42:00] night. I’m 100% sure. JJ: It was at night. ADR: It was at nighttime. But at that dance that said, we showed up. JJ: I must have been. I must have-- ADR: That’s what I’m saying, you may not remember you got your butt beaten? JJ: No, no. He picked me up and told me I had a fight. ADR: What I can’t remember-JJ: He told me I had to fight him. And so I went to get ready to fight him. And then he interfered. He went-- ADR: No, it was at night. JJ: No, that was in the morning. ADR: Night. JJ: It happened again. It happened again in the morning then. ADR: Well, if it happened in the morning either, I don’t remember that. I mean, I don’t remember at the moment. JJ: He got me out of bed-- ADR: But I know that that night was at nighttime he took. And actually I thought there was more than four guys. JJ: I don’t remember that. So, it had to be a different thing, a different incident. 63 �ADR: But no, and then I’m positive-JJ: The same incident, but different ending. ADR: Right, because like I said, we were going to, I don’t remember if you were there. I don’t remember. That’s what I’m saying. I don’t remember that you were there when Orlando was fighting, right? We had come in, we were getting ready to fight. We were getting ready-JJ: Was major. It was major. ADR: And [01:43:00] Raymond was the one that stopped us. Raymond basically got between the group. He says, you guys can’t do that. The urge is not to fight. He says, you guys, he said, we can’t do this. And then he said he the one making the suggestion, had one representative from each site. And there was no doubt it was going to, Orlando wasn’t going to let any of us fight. Okay. I mean, whoever it was going to be was going to take him out. And as I said, it was Crazy Johnny, the fact that he beat Crazy Johnny, really, Orlando’s, in terms of a fighter, went way up when he did it twice. He didn’t do it once, he didn’t do it once. He did it twice. Okay. And I can tell you, because I never forgot. I might forget certain things in my life or things like that, but there’s certain things that stay imbedded in your brain that make it difficult. I know that he knocked them down and very rapidly, it wasn’t something that was in the fight. [01:44:00] Within the punches, they started getting thrown out very rapid, Orlando, don’t ask him how he did it. Hit him, hit him square on the jaw, knocked him down. I mean, Johnny went down. And at that point, it was like everybody was surprised. I mean, a lot of people couldn’t believe what had happened. Toothpick wanted to 64 �jump, wanted in. They said no. And anybody’s going back and we said, this is a fair fight. We were prepared, I mean if anybody would’ve broken up, we had a full gang fight right on the spot. Then he allowed Johnny to get up and Johnny was like-- I don’t remember. He made an excuse that he slipped or whatever. It didn’t matter whether he slipped or not. He gets up again, starts to fight Orlando, knocked him down. I’m not talking a punching, I’m talking an actual knockdown. Knocked them down. I don’t know if it was in the same side of the face or the other side of the face, but he knocked them down. Then they put up another guy. He took down four guys, four Paragons. [01:45:00] They all went down. Okay. What I’m saying, I don’t mean physically that he knocked him down, but enough where he was beating the crap out of them, they would’ve to pull the guy out and put another guy out. Okay. My recollection was Johnny was the only one that got knocked down. JJ: All right, so what other battle do you remember? ADR: Orlando’s? JJ: No, no, no. Just a battle in the neighborhood of fights. ADR: There’s a whole bunch of them. Shit-JJ: Give me another one. Give me another one. ADR: Well, that particular, the other one would’ve been the night-- I mean, going back that I was talking about when we found out about the stolen vehicles, we had a stolen vehicle and we were really-JJ: Let’s do a different one. We already talked about stolen vehicles. 65 �ADR: But there was the other one where when we were fighting with the Mohawks, for example. JJ: What about the Aristocrats? What about that? ADR: The Aristocrats would’ve been the one where we, they would’ve been with Rory. [01:46:00] I mean, Rory comes to mind because something had happened. He had moved by the Ogden area where it was predominantly Italian at that time. Near the, what the Kennedy, in other words, the section that comes into Ohio or Grand Avenue. I forgot from the highway where the guy got killed that night. You got picked up that night. You went to jail that night from that gang fight. JJ: Oh, the Gaylords. ADR: But the guy that got shot with the zip gun. JJ: That was the Gaylords, the Gaylords neighborhood. ADR: I don’t, it was the Gaylords, that’s, I don’t remember the name. I know we had a plan. The plan was after the whole thing had occurred that we went, because it involved the Paragons in that fight. The fight got started with Rory. They had to do something with Rory, and we decided we’re going to have a fight. There had been a meeting already ahead of time [01:47:00] that how the fight was going to be conducted. To avoid distraction one of the tactics we use is that it would be a group of us to cross the highway. In other words, you got the (inaudible), I’m trying to think, the Ohio (inaudible), I might be mistaken on the-JJ: That was Grand, by Grand-- ADR: The ramp that comes in to-JJ: Milwaukee. By Milwaukee. 66 �ADR: Yeah, exactly. But it crosses -JJ: Noble and -- ADR: Right. But that’s when you’re coming in the (inaudible) when you’re going into downtown from the north side, the extension that goes in at this-JJ: Milwaukee Avenue. Milwaukee Avenue. Noble Street, Chicago. ADR: No, I’m talking from the highway. JJ: Chicago Avenue. ADR: When it goes straight into the city, the first street, when it comes into the street, it’s going to be Orleans Street. That ramp. JJ: Oh, Congress. Congress. That’s Congress, (inaudible), right around there. ADR: That’s the one we crossed because it was during that. There’s that trend where Ogden Avenue, [01:48:00] you do have Milwaukee and some of those areas. But in that area in there, we wanted them to think that we were going to be attacking them to this particular area, and we wanted to create the commotion with the police and everything else to draw ’em away from the area because we knew where they were actually at and that’s where they were going to get hit. But (inaudible) in other words, we were going to the group with the whole idea, crossing the highway, causing the commotion to attract the group towards that area. The police, they’re thinking, this is where the fight is going on. We was actually taking ’em away from, we intended to jump or where we were going to have the battle with where we knew that, where they were at. Unfortunately, what ended up happening-JJ: What was the battle about? 67 �ADR: It had to do with Rory. It had to do something that occurred with Rory getting jumped or something that whatever, that okay. JJ: He got jumped and then he came and got some people. ADR: Right. And then it grew into a bigger fight. What the groups that were being involved, that was the kind of fight that-JJ: I was in jail that time, [01:49:00] me and Hector, me and some of the Paragons went to, because that time the Paragons and the Young Lords were fighting together on the same side. ADR: Yeah. Well, most of the fighting involved, some of the-JJ: We were on the same side for that one. ADR: Well, yes, most of the time-- what you’re forgetting is that a lot of those fights are always involved more than one group. They were smaller groups. I mean, you’re talking to the north side. You had the-- momentarily forgetting the Red Rooster. We had another group of a couple of groups that existed in there. And there were other smaller groups that said there was a lot of different groups like your corner street guys. Some of ’em would’ve names, some would not. So sometimes when fights would get started, it would involve in the bigger fights. There were alliances. We acted no different from gang activity than matched the way in the, I would want to say the medieval times where different leaders would [01:50:00] come together, monarchs or dukes or lords. And we had their groups come immersed to find a common enemy or that common enemy making alliances with other groups to fight another group. JJ: So, the clubs, clubs were making alliances all the time. 68 �ADR: Sometimes not all the time, depending on what the interests were and how these fights created. That example is like with the Red Rooster guys. They had a name, I forgot the name momentarily, that was dealt by Mineo, or Sal. Sal was Puerto Rican and you had a Mexican guy, forgot his name. And the funny part about it, the Mexican guy led the Puerto Rican group to hang around the same thing. They were more like motorcycle guys, guess in that style, remember? There were actually two groups within that they hung in the Red Rooster. And the funny part about it was that the Mexican guy was leading the Puerto Ricans and the Puerto Rican was leading the Hillbillies. They hung around together. Many became a younger, but many used [01:51:00] to, when they had that fight, they asked our help. That’s how we got involved in that fight. Because they were fighting the guys further up north from the Belmont area. They had hung a [figini?], is that correct word? [figini?] of a Puerto Rican with a noose on the neck, on a pole. You should remember that because it involved you and another story that you’re not too crazy about. JJ: Tell me about it. ADR: But that particular fight, when we went to help them. JJ: So, they had a Puerto Rican with the noose? ADR: Right, and they hung it by school in front of the, on a pole near-- that school is gone. They knocked it down. It’s where the hospital -JJ: So, it was like a caricature. ADR: It was hanging off of a-JJ: A caricature, somebody like one of those-- 69 �ADR: Claiming this is what we’re going to do to the Puerto Ricans. JJ: Okay. And you hung and it was a noose around the neck. ADR: Right. JJ: Tied to the light pole. Is that what it is? ADR: The light post, right. It was hanging the head hanging [01:52:00] there. JJ: And this was on Berry Street. ADR: Guzmán at that time was hanging around-JJ: Berry Street by-- ADR: Berry, right. Okay, got it. Yeah, you’re correct. Guzmán at that time was always trying to play the-JJ: Between Halsted and Sheffield and Berry. ADR: Correct. And Guzmán always wanted to be trying to be the leader of the Young Lords. We never let him be. JJ: Santos Guzmán. ADR: Guzmán. JJ: Santos Guzmán. That was his name. ADR: What? JJ: Santo Guzmán. ADR: Santos Guzmán. Santos. Santos was heavyset wrestler. Big guy. I had a fight with him. JJ: He came from Philadelphia. He moved to Chicago from Philadelphia. ADR: He moved to-JJ: He was from Philadelphia, but he became a Young Lord. 70 �ADR: Well, we became, during that time, he’s the one that-- he was bullshitting. What I’m saying is, I mean in the aftermath okay. JJ: You didn’t get along. [01:53:00] You and him. That’s what you’re saying. You and him didn’t-- ADR: A problem there. JJ: I got along with him. ADR: Well, the thing was that when we had this thing in it, okay, Mineo, I mean Sal, not Sal Mineo the one we know, okay. Sal came over to us and said, we need some help. And we said, okay, we’re going to help you out. We’ll help you out on the fight. We also got involved the Paragons and the Eagles on this particular fight. JJ: But wasn’t the fight--weren’t they threatening the family? ADR: Well, I’m getting to that. What happened was we went to, oh, that’s at the time we had the white guy that was leading. There was another (inaudible). There were two occasions. We had Miller and we had this other white guy that led the Young Lords. The point is that we go on the vehicle to where they were going to show us where the thing was hanging. The [figini?] of the Puerto [01:54:00] Rican hanging from the post. And we had gone in there to kind of survey, see what we were up against and all that. JJ: Who’s we? ADR: So-JJ: Who is we? ADR: Hmm? JJ: Who went in there? 71 �ADR: The what? JJ: Who is we? ADR: There was six of us. You, Orlando, myself, Guzmán, the white guy, Benny. That would’ve been it. There was like six of us. Six, seven guys went, because we weren’t loaded or anything. We went (inaudible). And so when we got there to Berry Street, we came in from Halsted and we walked because we wanted to go what we could find. And we were prepared for a fight. We had picked up some antennas. We had already broken the antennas and some sticks that we had on our hands as we were walking towards the front, whereas we were going in there to try [01:55:00] to find what we could find. That particular night, we knew that that wasn’t going to be the complete gang fight at that time, but we just wanted to see what we were up against. As we came up on the corner, Santos went ahead of us running, like trying to be the badass. He went around the corner and comes back as quickly, turns around and comes back running and he’s yelling, “The police. The police.” At that point, guys started running. You went up on the fence, started climbing. I didn’t know you were doing that, the link fence. You’re climbing a link fence. The only thing I could do at that moment as it had occurred, I didn’t even have time to run or anything. I dropped my weapon to the side of the curb. And for some instance, instinct, I put my hands in my pockets and kept walking towards making ’em think like-- I don’t, [01:56:00] because I’m thinking what’s going to turn around is going to be the police. So, if they see me there with no weapon or nothing, they’re not going to-- quickly, in my mind, they’re not going to do anything to me. But to my great surprise, turn around and 72 �I see all these fucking (inaudible) with chains in their pants on their hands going around. But good thing I had my hands in my pocket. So, they come by me down there. So, I didn’t even have a chance of running or anything. You’re climbing and they’re pulling you down. JJ: I think they hit me with a brick. They hit me with a brick and a tire iron. ADR: Well, this all happened at the same time. Remember, I’m not watching you. JJ: They hit my back and well, I released my hands and fell down. ADR: But you’re yelling. The one thing I never forget. JJ: I was yelling. ADR: You’re yelling. (laughter) I’m a Polack, I’m a Polack. JJ: No, no, because-- ADR: I’m no goddamn Puerto Rican. I’m Polack. JJ: No, no, because what he said was, [01:57:00] “We’re looking for Puerto Ricans,” and you said, “I’m Mexican.” ADR: Right, I mean, that’s what I’m saying. But I’m hearing you what I’m telling you, like you (inaudible). Well, when he sat in there-JJ: I said, well, I’m a Polack then. And you were laughing. But they didn’t say we we’re looking for Mexicans. Yeah, when I said, when you going there we’re looking for Puerto Ricans, and you said, I’m Mexican. And all I could say was, oh, well. And I saw they didn’t do nothing to you. I said, well I’m Polack. ADR: All I remember is when-JJ: I was not going to tell ’em I’m Puerto Rican and they’re looking for Puerto Rican. ADR: You said you were-- remember that? That I do, I remember. 73 �JJ: So, after that, what happened after that? ADR: Well, the point was, when they come up against me, I said, the thing going on, I know that they’re pulling it from the side of my eye. They were pulling. JJ: They were ready to kick my butt. I’m a Polack. ADR: But anyway, the guy, when he said, when he’s looking says they thought [01:58:00] I was Puerto Rican. I said, “No, I’m fucking, I’m Mexican.” The girl, they had a girl with ’em, or maybe two, I don’t remember, but I know they definitely, and she says, “Speak Spanish.” So, I’m like, (Spanish) [01:58:13], you know, I said something in Spanish and right away she says, “Yeah, he’s Mexican.” She recognized my accent. So, they didn’t know what to do with me. They got you but we were smart enough not to say anything to each other. So, they grabbed you and they grabbed me and they said, okay. We didn’t know where they were taking us, but obviously we were now prisoners. JJ: Right. And they took us underneath the sidewalk. ADR: They went into, there was a building next to the -- and they took us into a basement. They had a German Shepherd in the basement. JJ: That’s where they used to keep the coal at that time, they used to heat the coal for heating. ADR: Well, whatever it was. And they put us in there. And then we knew, we kind of sensed that they were watching us. We never spoke [01:59:00] with each other. You’re sitting there and I ignore you. You were ignoring me. We weren’t saying nothing to each other. And after a while, I don’t know if they must’ve kept us, maybe a half hour, 45 minutes, they come back and they said, “Get the fuck out 74 �of here. Go home, whatever.” We left. And to their surprise, when we had what we called the war meeting, we decided the neutral point was the Benny’s Pizzeria. So, then they said, they agreed that through words had gone back, decide how we were going to conduct a fight that we met at Benny’s Pizzeria. To the surprise of the leader. Because I was like, you were not there. I’m the one had to go in there. And the guy fucking, you didn’t want to go. I went in there and he says, “You motherfucker.” He says, I said, “Too bad motherfuckers, too late.” That I had, when we said that we agreed what weapons we were going to use in the gang fight. JJ: [02:00:00] I thought I was there. I thought I was there. The next day. I was there. The next day I did go, because I remember him saying you-- ADR: And when I said, we talked about what weapons, we basically, it was a free for all. The only thing we said, we didn’t want there not to use any slip gun. JJ: You got to remember that. That was when I was president of the group. ADR: No, you weren’t. Not at that point, you were not, Cha-Cha. You were a war-- like I said, me and you never held, we never wanted the position. We were always the warlords. You and me were the warlords. We were never, we were the warlords. JJ: Right. But later on, I became president. That was-- ADR: That would’ve been the only time you took the, when you became chairman. JJ: No, after (inaudible), I became the president. ADR: Never wanted it. Neither one of us. JJ: No, no. Orlando didn’t want it. I was president, so I was the president. 75 �ADR: I know that none of us wanted the leadership. JJ: When it changed [02:01:00] I was the president. ADR: Look, none of us. JJ: Oh, you were in the service. ADR: Orlando didn’t want it. I didn’t want it. JJ: No, no, no. That’s when you were in the service that-- ADR: I was gone. That might have been true. JJ: Yeah. That’s when you were in the service. ADR: But before I left for the service, you were never-JJ: I was president of the gang when we changed over. ADR: That might’ve been after I was gone. JJ: And then you came afterwards. ADR: Right. But not during the time in there, Orlando, because as I know Orlando didn’t want it. I didn’t want it. JJ: You were angry because by that time, we were against the war and all that other stuff, and you had just come out of the service. So, you were angry. ADR: But that’s when you came, during our gang years, you and me were the warlords. JJ: Yeah, exactly. We were the warlords. Yeah. ADR: Okay. We were the ones that would sit down with the opposing side, and we never, I just used the word with theJJ: At that time, the gangs were like, what’s that story? We would sit and meet and decide how we were going to fight and all that other stuff. 76 �ADR: Basically [02:02:00] that really, when you look back, everything was okay. The only thing, the emphasis was not to use guns. JJ: Right. Right. ADR: I used to be the (inaudible) not to use guns. JJ: Knives were okay. ADR: Right. I mean, it’s a lot different and none of that. But at that time, the deal was not, they were agreeing not to use guns. JJ: Correct. Well, there weren’t that many guns used at that time. ADR: Obviously. Okay. So, the plan was, at that point, after we did the negotiate, not negotiations, that we’d settled on what was going to happen. Then the fight was to be conducted that particular night, and the fight was going to get going. So, we all went back to our areas. What we decided to do as a group, I’m not saying nobody took the lead in there, that we would send a group-- from the house (inaudible) there used to be all Hispanics. That building’s still standing, like a drive-in-JJ: On the corner. That’s where -- [02:03:00] ADR: The corner of Halsted. JJ: That’s where the Aristocrats had gone. ADR: Clark. JJ: Right, right, right. ADR: That corner right here. We met there. We had everybody in there and we told the young kids, the younger ones, you will come down, go down Berry, the same street that street Berry Street, and break all the windshields of all the vehicles. 77 �Go run down there, breaking all the windshields. Right. We then, that was a Mineo-JJ: That was a long street. ADR: Right. And they would run, come running to-- on Sheffield we had group, a couple of vehicles to the side waiting to come down. Is that what we’re trying to do is push ’em. In other words, when they would come down, they would think that we were coming from that area by having them make a commotion, breaking windows, making a commotion, making them think that we were all coming down that street, coming down at them. They would turn, we were trying to push them into Sheffield to go and make them go down on Sheffield. We then would cut [02:04:00] them off by that group as the other group would be waiting. They would be coming up on that, coming from that site, coming up, going north as the point that they got started commotion going (inaudible) would come in. We had another group that would be coming from the north. In other words, we wanted to trap them. Nothing’s ever perfect. The police, obviously, when the windshields were being broken down and everything, within a few minutes you could hear the siren because it is a long block. You’re correct in stating that. So, it didn’t take, no, not too long of a period that you hear the siren. Police knew there was going to be a gang fight. They always tended to know when those things occurred. So, the police is coming, they’re coming into Berry and the Hillbillies, they’re coming down in there. As they get in there, they run into our group from the south, getting the beat shit out of them. They getting completely surprised. They start running back north, but we’re waiting for them up in from 78 �the north end. Also, there was a group of us, so they ran into them, so we had them trapped. But [02:05:00] like I said in the trip now they’re running into the street and everything else. There were a few of ’em that got away. Most of ’em were getting their ass kicked. Remember, gang fight doesn’t last a long time, a few minutes, and it seems like it’s a long time. Those that ran, they ran into Belmont, going east on Belmont, by the L tracks. Back then, remember there were taverns there. They were no longer in system. Now you got department stores and other kinds of places, but then there used to be quite a lot of bars on that area. It was more at one point, a little bit more like a skid row area type. Remember Clark, the way it used to be and all that existed, the builders that existed back in those days, the cigar shops, things like that. The point is that those guys, they ran in there. The one of the leaders, they, the head number leaders ran into. We know because I was one of the guys, we chased him inside one of the taverns and he was looking to try to save his butt. [02:06:00] We beat the shit out of him right in the bar and then nobody stopped us. They knew what was going on. They knew we fight. It’s none of their business, so we beat the crap out of him right in the fucking bar and we walked out. We won the fight. I mean obviously-JJ: It lasted, how long did that fight last? ADR: The fight didn’t last. I mean the running would’ve had been from a 10 to 15minute interval of the whole thing. JJ: But I mean wasn’t there a whole week of fight? Wasn’t there a whole week of grouping together? 79 �ADR: Fighting? There was the scrimmages that led to that particular fight. JJ: Okay, so a whole week there was skirmishes. ADR: That whole week. Yes, there was scrimmages going on. JJ: And that’s when we met and decided let’s just fight it. Right, because the police was starting to get to-- ADR: No, they knew the activity was going on. Yes. Remember a couple of our, not us ourselves, but the people from the Red Rooster had gotten jumped and they had gotten ambushed a couple of times during that week, what you’re referring to that week, you’re [02:07:00] correct. On that particular week, on that particular day that ended, that’s when the fight ended. That particular night, what we did that night. JJ: Okay. I don’t know the Red Rooster, but I know that it had to do with a family that they were harassing that lived in that building too. ADR: The point was that after what we did to them that night and the way we beat the shit out of them and within the few minutes it wasn’t in there. JJ: Sal, you were looking at it from the point of view of one gang fighting another gang. I was looking at it from they attacked the Puerto Rican family. You understand what I’m saying? You were looking at it from different perspective. ADR: Well, I’m looking for the angle that how we conducted our system. You’re right. The tactics we used. JJ: Yeah, you wanted-- ADR: If we didn’t use our tactics, we wouldn’t want the scrimmage would’ve kept on going. 80 �JJ: So, you were [strategician?]. ADR: Exactly, and then the strategy ended when we beat the shit out of them. JJ: You were concerned with just fighting and I mean, I’m thinking I’m also getting politicized. I’m thinking [02:08:00] these people didn’t do anything. This is a race thing. ADR: To me, is that whether they were racist or not, whether they were racist or not. When we beat-- the way we beat the crap out of ’em. Okay. It wasn’t like we were nice to ’em or anything else. I mean we beat the fucking crap out of ’em. A couple of those guys, we didn’t kill anybody, but I’m sure some of them wished they would’ve died that night because they had broken bones, broken arms, broken legs or broken ribs, fucked up faces that we met. We might have scarred people out that night. We were not nice about what we did. I playing quickly in a fight. We didn’t have time in there. Try to think of what it is to you. You’re down on the ground and somebody kicks you in your face or-- we did a lot of damage that night. We really beat the crap out them pretty good. Those guys that got their asses, they got the broken arms. They ended up getting broken arms with broken legs, weren’t about to come back and say, I’m going to be competing, fighting these fucking guys are crazy. [02:09:00] They didn’t want to fight us. Then when I’m talking about the damage that we tended to do in a fight, not nice because nobody-- I’m not glamorizing. That’s my point. JJ: We started small, but we ended up with an alliance of all these different groups. So, we became strong. We were a big group then. ADR: No, we weren’t-- 81 �JJ: No, what I’m saying, we were fighting just one gang. It was called the Aristocrats, but we had a lot of gang. We had the Black Eagles, we had the Flaming Arrows, we had the Paragons, we had the Young Lords. This was Halsted and Dickens altogether, I believe even the Latin Eagles from the town hall district police station. ADR: Latin Eagles weren’t in existence yet at all. JJ: They weren’t. ADR: They were not. Okay. They were not in existence. JJ: So, this was the Paragons, the Black Eagles and all these-- ADR: The major groups were right. It was us, the Black [02:10:00] Eagles, the Paragons. JJ: Even the (inaudible) in the-- ADR: Those were the four groups basically that existed. The Red Rooster guys, ourselves, the Paragons, the Black Eagles. In reality, you can’t count the Flaming Arrows were not into fighting, so some of them did participate. Now, that’s not to say that some of them did not participate in the fight about the imperial laces, but as a group. JJ: The Imperial Aces and Queens, what about them? ADR: The what? JJ: It was the Imperial Aces and Imperial Queens. ADR: Imperial Aces? JJ: Or they were with the Flaming Arrows at that time too. They were on Dayton and Armitage at the Church. 82 �ADR: They were not in terms of fighting, they were not-JJ: Into that. ADR: No. I mean either-- one thing you’re also forgetting that again, that was different. Not that you’re forgetting. [02:11:00] I mean it’s, you’re asking what I’m remembering. One of the other things that we had in our advantage was that we started a game among ourselves when we were in school, and it is just something that started off with no apparent reason, but that it turned out to be very beneficial that during lunch and it started-- one of those things, we used to punch each other, fight and somehow this evolved into two of us. It would be different guys every day that would have to fight the rest of the group, and we agreed that we could not hit our faces. So, every day it was the kind of thing where we could we punch each other, you have to defend or whatever. JJ: It seemed like a game, but anybody played it. ADR: It was a game that we played every [02:12:00] day when we were in grammar school, everybody, you were not, remember, you were not-JJ: Everybody used to practice fighting and stuff like that. ADR: Well, the point, what I’m trying to say out of that particular situation-JJ: No, I wasn’t with you guys, but that was a normal thing that was played all over the place. I played it too. I played it in jail. I played other stuff and a lot of times too, even times later, I was in and out of jail a lot, so that was it. ADR: I’m having a hard time hearing. JJ: I said other time, I wasn’t also around because I was in and out of jail a lot. Also, I was going to jail a lot is what I’m saying. 83 �ADR: Well, at that time, I mean we’re talking, what you had working against you in that time is that you were in a Catholic school and during that time we were talking, we were practicing this. Look, as a fighter, nobody doubted that you couldn’t fight or not. That’s not the point I’m trying to make. I’m talking what was beneficial for the Young Lords as a whole, [02:13:00] that when we had this little game, when we practiced, we got used to getting punched. That was the aftermath that I look back on that and in other words, I can remember, look, I can remember I trick-- I remember tricking Orlando one time, is that when we used to fight each other, whatever, and I said, okay. It’s like, okay, I had enough or come down and he dropped the [scarf?], and I went and do nothing. I got him right on the fucking stomach, I home, but it was fair game and obviously he came back at me, but we never, not at a point that we were pissed-- angry at each other like that. The thing I’m trying to show you is that we got used to getting hit so that when we got into a gang fight, when we were getting hit, it didn’t mean shit to us. We were already doing that on a daily basis. We were training our body to take punches is what I’m trying to tell you. That made us more deadly in a fight. JJ: I see you didn’t like the [02:14:00] Catholic Church people. ADR: Huh? JJ: You didn’t like people from the Catholic Church? I see that. I said you didn’t like people from the Catholic Church, but before I went to the Catholic church, the reason I was in the Catholic Church was because I got kicked out of the public school, Newbury. I was in Newbury and I got kicked out of there basically. Not kicked out, but my mother took me out of there to put me in to calm me down a 84 �little bit. By that time, I had changed my thinking. Then I made up for it when I left eighth grade and that one year I think I was in and out of jail every day, I think. ADR: You always had that bad luck. I mean. JJ: You call it bad luck. You didn’t go to jail, so you call it bad luck. ADR: I don’t know, man. I mean look, you had the unfortunate situation. Look, remember the time there used to be a curfew. We’re forgetting about the curfew. JJ: Okay, tell me. [02:15:00] ADR: And we got picked up and we were done. It was 10:30 and the police saw us on the street, took us in the squad car and they were going to take us home to report it to our parents. What the hell is your kid doing after 10:30? Remember that there used to be an ordinance. JJ: A routine? Yes. ADR: Okay. You, for whatever reason, we didn’t pick you to sit in the middle of the squad. I mean, they had us in the back seat, right? You knew perfectly well we were going to jump out. Orlando tell us that yeah. I live over here going down there on Burling Street and it was instincts we had. JJ: This was a cab. ADR: We knew as soon as that squad car, as soon as that squad car was-- okay, we were going to jump out of the vehicle and we did. Me and Orlando got away. JJ: Well, I jumped out late. I jumped out late. I was in the middle. ADR: You got screwed up and you got caught in the head-JJ: And then kicked my butt because-- 85 �ADR: I know, but there were things like that that would happen. Okay. That night with the fight [02:16:00] with the guy that got shot, you got picked up that night in that gang fight. You went in there, they picked you up. I got away. I mean all, we were always getting away and I don’t want to say whether it was bad luck or whatever it was that you had, but it was like you would always get caught. JJ: I mean, once you start getting arrested, the police know you and they didn’t spike you an amount of weight. We’ve seen this guy before. We know who he is. Let’s go check him out. And that’s usually why. So, once you start going to jail, they already know you. They get to know you. And I was going in and out of jail all that time. I mean like you said, I was sheltered in that Catholic school and now I’m not in Catholic school anymore, and now I want to be the best gang banger. I want to catch up to everybody real quick. Right? I think you’re right. I was trying to catch up real quick to [02:17:00] everybody and that summer I went to jail a lot. ADR: But bringing it back to something you asked me, what happened with going back when we really got out of track with these other things. What happened in Dublin, Georgia, bringing you back to that. They find, as I said, they find our identifications. They find that we’re wanted in Chicago, which time we were going back about the stolen vehicles, whether we actually-- When I got back, that’s what I was told by the police. I don’t know anything about how many vehicles we had stolen or not at that point. Okay, we get picked up in Dublin, Georgia. We get in jail, now that they know who we are, that we are wanted for Grand Larceny from the vehicle of the (inaudible), they put us in a locker. I 86 �admitted, started protesting. I’m saying, “Hey, I’m a minor. You can’t put me in jail,” which kind of pissed the police a little bit. So, for some reason, because we were Catholic, some mentality that plays into here that we would tell the truth. So, I remember being [02:18:00] brought into a room where there was six police that were sitting around and I had to walk right through them and I’m like, “They’re going to beat the fucking crap out of me at this point.” I mean, I’m in the south, I’m from the north. I said, I have a right to an attorney and I’m giving this - I always had that never shut up and when I should shut up and I know my rights. I’m a minor. You can’t do this to me, blah, blah, blah. And so, they said, okay. I want to talk to an attorney. And they had a list with names on it. And so, when I went up in there, they said a phone spread. There was a table and then there was a panel with names of lawyers on top. And as I said, I don’t know how big the town, Dublin, Georgia, I always wanted to visit it. One of things, I want to go back to take a look how the town looks like now. But anyway, when I come in, I’m scared to death because I’m thinking they’re going to beat the shit out of me as I’m going through them, but nothing happens to me. I get to the phone. So, I start to [02:19:00] look up and they kind of noticing that I’m calling the first name on the list or I might have mentioned the name and I’m marking dialing the number, I mean with the dial on it. And one of them says, “You don’t want to call him.” I’m like, “Why not?” He said, “He’s too old or something to that effect.” Then I go to the second name and I started dialing, and then he said something about that guy too. I go further down the line and I’m being sarcastic. Is there anything wrong with this guy? Like saying, is there anything wrong with this guy? 87 �And again, I knew, I realized I’m pissing him off, but I dialed the phone and I tell the guy who I am and that I’m a minor they got me in jail. So, they said, well, now we can go to the, I’m going to go down there and see you, blah, blah, all bullshit. So, they put me back in the cell and man, coffee tasted like shit. They got us in lockup and everything. [02:20:00] But the captain came, he became sympathetic towards us, to me and Jerry. So, he says, here’s what I’m going to do. He says, if you agree, because we were ready to prepare, we were going to fight extradition. Like I said, we weren’t stupid. I mean we were young, but we were neither stupid either. And we did, we have a certain amount of knowledge about the law. So, we figured we can fight extradition. We don’t go back to Illinois or Chicago. So, he came and talked to us. He says, “Look, if you guys agree not to fight extradition, he says, we’re going to have to take you in the morning.” He says, “You’re going to have to go in front of a judge and then you’re going to tell him whether you’re going to fight extradition or not. You have to make a plea.” And he said, but if you agree that you won’t fight extradition, he says, “I’m going to give the, he referred to them as the Northerners.” [02:21:00] He says, “I’m going to give them 24 hours. If they’re not here in 24 hours to pick you up,” he says, “I’m letting you out of jail.” I said, “Okay.” So, me and Jerry said, “Yeah, we’ll do it. We go in front of this judge.” I think it had, I don’t know what it was, whatever the judge, but I remember having to look up at the son of a bitch because he sit in like a pillar or maybe because we were younger or shorter, you had to look it up, that it looked. But we went in front of the judge. We had their attorney, the guy that I called, that they allowed me to call to 88 �represent us and said, “We’re not fighting extradition.” And asked us, is this your own free will, blah, blah, blah. Yes it is. And all this other stuff. So, he says, “Okay.” They took us back to jail and he says, 24 hours. Twenty-four hours. Now we’ve got two days. I recall might’ve been two, three days that we were in jail. And believe me, I hated every bit. I wasn’t eating shit [02:22:00] because that food, it was fucking crap. I see these movies about, man, in the south--bad. And anyway, 24 hours are up, comes in there and says, “Okay guys, you’re free.” So, he brought us up and then he already had asked us, he says, when they wanted to find out, we told, we didn’t know anything about the stolen vehicles. We told them that all we knew is that we told ’em the truth. We were joyriding on the vehicles, to go to the place where we were going. And he says, well, he says, you guys are in deep shit trouble. He says to what you guys done, you guys stole a lot of vehicles. So, we weren’t thinking like wouldn’t need a lot of vehicles. We probably stole about, we sent two, maybe three vehicles a day. We didn’t strip ’em, we didn’t do anything. We just abandoned them. And it was somebody was taking and stripping [02:23:00] them, me and Jerry, we didn’t know then. We didn’t know the whole story because-JJ: That white guy that you were saying he was stripping? ADR: You knew him. I can’t remember the guy’s name, but the skinny guy-JJ: McKinney. McKinney. Tall McKinley or McKinley. ADR: Which what? JJ: McKinley. ADR: Okay. And anyway-- 89 �JJ: He’s the one that snitched on me. That’s what I know. He set me up and then he snitched on me. And Orlando used to tell me, don’t hang around with him. ADR: Well. JJ: But that’s a different story. ADR: So, they knew when we asked him, he says, why do we intended to do? Well, we had told him that we wanted to go to California and me and Jerry really couldn’t make up our minds whether we want to go or Miami. So, he told us, he says, I’m taking you to the bus station. I’m going to put you on a bus. He said, we’re paying for it. So, he says, “If you want to go, want to go to California, I’ll put you in the Greyhound to go to California [02:24:00] or Miami.” Me and Jerry decided, because we were closer to Miami, I wonder what would’ve happened if we decided to go to California. I always wonder about that. Okay. We decided that we were closer to Florida that we would to go to Miami, Florida, and he gave us five bucks a piece. JJ: So how did you get back to-- ADR: The cop-JJ: How did you get back to Chicago from Miami? How did you get back to Chicago? ADR: Okay, how they got back. I plan to tell how that happened. Okay, we get to Miami, all right? We come out of the bus, the buses were air conditioned and we step into that humidity, man. Oh God, man, I never forgot – I hated it. I would never visit Florida for up until years-- it took me about 40, 50 years to visit Florida. And [02:25:00] that hit end and we’re coming out, we had the leather 90 �jackets, we had our leather jackets. We hit this fucking wave of humidity. So, we figured we’d live like we did in Chicago. We could live off the streets. Remember they had here, you used to deliver milk in the houses, the bread. I mean, there was always something to eat. You didn’t have to starve. And so, when we’re in Miami, first thing we did is we stole some clothes. We went to a department store, try and double up the clothes and took out the clothes that had changed it. So, we figured we could go to down the beach, and I don’t know why we had this mentality, we’re going to be able to knock off the coconuts from the trees. JJ: Live off the land. ADR: Yeah, so we didn’t know that Miami was two cities. You got Miami City and then you got Miami. So, the point is that, and the interim in there, we get picked up again by the by the Miami police, but because we’re juveniles [02:26:00] this time, they take us to a juvenile home. And because we’re from Chicago, we were the badasses. So immediately when (inaudible) and all the kids found out that we were from Chicago, we immediately became the boss. Me and Jerry became the boss on the whole floor. Because they were afraid of us. We were supposed to be the badasses. And we were there probably anywhere from a week to two weeks that I can remember. We were in there and we were running things. I mean, all these other guys were scared shitless of us, but they had us, the cells that they had us, had us to the bed. Anyway, we were running things in that juvenile home. And for me, all I know is that we’re sitting down one day. Like I said, it was no more than two weeks. And maybe I was there in that 91 �(inaudible) home or juvenile detention center. [02:27:00] Like I said, about two weeks that I was there, all I know is that I’m sitting down eating and one of the officers comes up to me and says, “You’re coming with me.” I’m like, what the fuck’s going on? And he takes me out of there and he says, “You’re going home.” And there was a detective that was waiting, and the detective basically says that you’re being sent back to Illinois right now. And he said-- I didn’t know that my parents that were told had to pay for the flight. Anyway, the point is that they take me, the detective takes me to the airport, and at that point I’m thinking of escaping. I’m not going to get on the plane. So, I’m trying to figure out how to get out of it. So, when he goes in there, [02:28:00] he walks with me to the, they already had everything waiting for me. The plane ticket, they go in there on it. Now, back then, none of the security points checked-JJ: None. So, they extradited-- they send you back to the jail or they let you go home because you were a juvenile. ADR: As I said, when I was there, they were taking me, I didn’t know what was taking place other than I’m going to be put on a plane to come back to Chicago. Okay. That’s all I know. All right. When I get into the airport, I’m thinking all I want to think. I’m trying to thinking how to escape. So, one of the first things I did when I got in there, I said, “I got to go use the bathroom.” Here I get into the bathroom, try to sneak out whatever needed to get away, not for me to board the plane. So, he said, “Okay, you need to go use the bathroom, go use it.” But he follows me and he goes right inside. I mean, he opened up the door [02:29:00] and like, fucking Jack, what the fuck is wrong with you? I got to take a shit and I don’t give 92 �a shit. He says, take your shit. He says, you’re not getting out of my sight. He said, I know what you’re planning on doing. He says, you’re not going to do it. So, I pretend to take a shit, I didn’t really need to take a shit. I pretended and get up. So, he stays with me the whole time. So, when he takes me up to the plane, he actually went inside the plane. He must have told the stewards what was up and then whatever. And he sits me on the plane. And ironically I’m sitting by the door of the plane and I don’t know what kind of event, but was one where the door was it had the seats and then the door was there. So, there were three seats. It was a young couple, I don’t know, because this is the way it heard. It was a young couple that must have just had gotten married and probably returning back home [02:30:00] from their honeymoon I think what it was. As I sat down, as he’s there standing looking at me and I says, aren’t you afraid that I’m going to be jumping out of the plane? The door was right there and he says, “Kid,” says, “you’re not going to do this. There’s no fucking parachutes on this plane,” which is making a joke out of it, right? So, I get on sit. There was not for me to do. I mean, plane takes off and all I could think about is I’m going to get my ass kicked when I get back home. I was worried about that. I was kind of quiet. The whole thing. The girl she had, like I said, she was very young, the early twenties, very, very young. Might have been like 21, 20. And I guess my face was showing that I was kind of in there and she’s trying to feed me. Because back them the flights were longer. They used to serve food and I don’t want [02:31:00] to, I mean to me the least thing. I didn’t want to eat and she’s trying to get me to eat and this and that, and acting motherly I guess. And I really 93 �didn’t want-- give a shit about that. But I’m just waiting until I get home. So, I finally get home. To my surprise, my father and my mother are waiting for me. So, then my mom already had a talk with my father. You’re not going to do anything to him. You’re not going to touch him. I know my father wanted to beat the fucking crap out of me. So took me to the side and said, “We know what happened.” And he said, “We’re going to go home right now.” And he says, “Going to have to go down, we’re going to have to go down to the police station.” I said, “Okay.” Well, we got home, my father didn’t say anything to me. I mean, other than giving me a dirty look. But he didn’t touch me. He didn’t do anything to me. So, we come home and we go down to the police station. [02:32:00] At that point, we were living on this block. JJ: [Lake View?], you were living in [Lake View?]. ADR: Yeah, no, I take that back. We’re still living in Fremont. (inaudible) We went down to the police station down here. I’m thinking, because the police station I came down was the one that was the detective on the north side. JJ: Summerdale? ADR: That was down here off of Lincoln Avenue, just north of Edison Street, (inaudible). JJ: Town Hall, Town Hall. ADR: Town Hall, right. So, I went in there, that’s when the cop tells me, “We know that you were in big blah, blah, blah. Everybody’s admitted it.” He says, “All you have to do is that you were riding on the vehicles, on the vehicles.” I said, “No.” I said, “I never did anything.” And I started arguing [02:33:00] with the cop. The 94 �cop insisted saying, look, you says, dude, we know that you guys stole this amount of vehicles. That number sticks in my mind, like I said, 300. And then he started lowering the number, like saying, “Okay, can you admit that you on 50 vehicles in numbers?” And I still said, “No, I’m not admitting to shit. I didn’t do anything.” I kept arguing with him. He was getting pissed off at me. So, he finally got to the point where he said, look, I mean, the conversation wasn’t that kind of long because my whole point was I’m not going to admit to anything. I didn’t do anything. I didn’t joy ride on anything. I didn’t steal nothing. And he said, “Everybody else has admitted.” He says, “You’re the only one right now that’s not admitted.” I said, “I don’t give a shit, but anybody, I’m not going to admit to anything. I didn’t do anything.” But finally, actually, he was pleading with me. He said, “Look, just admit that you were in one vehicle.” I said, “No, I’m not going to admit to fucking shit.” And so, he got fucking pissed off. So, he realized, he said, “You’re going to Audy Home tonight.” He said, “If you don’t admit to one vehicle, we’re going to lock [02:34:00] you up in Audy Home.” I said, “I don’t care.” I said, “I’m not admitting to anything.” Well, my mother started crying and I said, “Mom,” I says, “I’m not going to admit to anything. I didn’t do anything.” So, they said he’s going in. They took me to Audy Home that night and when I got to Audy Home, knowing how our system works, remember? Audy Home here in Chicago. We got all the Blacks, the other badasses and everything else. So, this came back to haunt me. I go in and first thing I did is try to find, because it was at nighttime, biggest guy I could find. That was when we were in the process in there. It was this guy, bigger than all of us 95 �in that group in there. And I bumped into him on purpose to start a fight. So, he didn’t realize what, as I bump into [02:35:00] him, he turns around and says something to me, and man, I just let out as quickly as I could. I hit him as hard as I could on the face, on the jaw. JJ: In the Audy Home? In the Audy Home. ADR: Inside the Audy Home. JJ: So, you’re fighting inside. ADR: And then I kicked him on the balls as hard as I could, and then I jumped him and obviously the other guards and everybody come in rushing pulling me out, which did exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted them to think I was fucking crazy. So, the next day, nobody wanted to fuck with me because this fucking crazy motherfucker, granted one of the biggest guys that I took him down, the word got out, don’t fuck this fucking Mexican’s crazy. I knew what I wanted, exactly what I wanted, I wanted be left alone. I don’t know how many days I spent in Audy Home but again, my mother got me out and went back and they got me out. So bottom line was when we went, you, I don’t know what happened. [02:36:00] I know that Orlando, we had different court dates or what have you. Eventually, because I never admitted to nothing they assigned a social worker to me, but actually I was never convicted or never charged with anything because I finally, finally (inaudible) justice. Well, the campaign, they had to drop the charges against me. I wasn’t admitting to anything. So out of the group, I’m the only one that never got a record for that because I mean, I’m sure they got into the 96 �participated, but I never got convicted. I don’t know what they did to you or what -- what happened to you on that, Cha-Cha? What happened to you? JJ: What do you mean? ADR: From the charges? From the car? JJ: From this car, from the charges of the car. ADR: Right. What happened? JJ: I don’t-- ADR: You were charged with the auto theft from those vehicles, were you not? JJ: I eventually ended up getting deported to Puerto Rico. [02:37:00] I mean, they put me on a plane in handcuffs and sent me to Puerto Rico, and they tried to charge me with burglaries, with car thefts, with all kinds of stuff. That guy McKinney that I’m telling you about, I did the first burglary with him and I started hanging around with him and he was using me to go inside the window. Again, I was a juvenile, and so actually I was taking the risk because I could have got shot going into the window. And so, I went in there and he was already an expert. I mean, he went, got a pillowcase and started putting jewelry in the pillowcase and all that stuff. The only thing I wanted was a toaster because we needed a toaster at the house. I always wanted to have me some bread, toasted bread. And so that’s the only thing that I took [02:38:00] (inaudible) and another buddy of his, they got all the jewelry, the TVs, the money they found, the cash, whatever. Anyway, all I know is that night, around two or three o’clock in the morning, they knock at my door and my mother lets them in and they come into 97 �the bedroom where I’m at and I get handcuffed when I wake up. I’m handcuffed there. ADR: You got sent to Audy Home, didn’t you up in Saint Charles? JJ: I went to Audy Home about five or six times. ADR: But you went up to Saint Charles? JJ: I also went to Saint Charles and they were going to put me in a juvenile penitentiary. ADR: I remember, hold on, step in there because I remember me and Orlando went to Saint Charles to try to break you out. JJ: Exactly. And remember that too. Yeah. We already had a plan to get me out of jail. You guys were going to break me out. I mean, I remember that. Remember, I’m glad it didn’t take place because I would’ve [02:39:00] been still in jail. But what happened is they were going to send me to Sheridan, which was the juvenile penitentiary, until I was 21 and I was only 14 going on 15. And instead, my mother got her pennies together and got me a lawyer. The lawyer stole the money and the lawyer plea bargained me to go to Puerto Rico until I was 21 instead of going to the penitentiary. And he figured that he did me a favor. So, I got put on the plane. I got taken right out of Audy Home, and I drove in a paddy wagon to the airport and my parents drove behind us and we talked at the airport and right at the gate, as we’re going into the plane, that’s when they took the handcuffs off. And then I got met by my uncle in Puerto Rico, and I stayed there for about a year, a year and a half until my father came to pick me up. So, I didn’t stay until I was 21. And while I was there, I got into [02:40:00] a 98 �little trouble, but I never went to jail. But here I was going in and out of jail every other day, at least once a week. So, basically that’s what happened. I know that they charged me with car theft and stuff like that too, but we also-ADR: I didn’t-JJ: We were trying to go to California with some stolen cars. That’s what we, and we got busted about five Young Lords, about three, or four. ADR: I mean that later on-JJ: What other gang fights? ADR: What? JJ: Any other gang fights that you remember? What about the beach, North Avenue Beach? ADR: There were a lot. We used to fight on a daily basis. JJ: You’re looking at it just a gang fight. And I’m looking at it as a gang fight, but I’m looking at it as a racial thing. When we went to the beach, remember North Avenue Beach in (inaudible)? ADR: That was the last day. That was one of the biggest, that’s when I got [02:41:00] my lip cut. That was the, which I actually had to go with my mother work in the hospital, Henrotin Hospital. JJ: What happened there? ADR: Okay, that was the day when always, there used to be a tradition to everybody would fight each other on the last day of school before summer. And we had, as everybody got out of school, there were fights. We all were going down towards the beach and there were all fights going on. I mean, obviously if the whites saw 99 �a Hispanic they would jump Hispanic or vice versa. I mean that were like, groups are going out. We went up to North Avenue. You were with me. I believe that that was when me and you, we were lagging behind the rest of the group. And it was a white kid that had going in back of us as I recall and he said something after we all had passed. But because me and you were the lag [02:42:00] ones, we turned around and he had made the challenge. At that point, we weren’t aware that there was another group of white guys coming. So, that’s the reason he had gotten both because he had seen the group coming--we hadn’t seen the group. So, as we walked towards him, then we ended up seeing the whole group. So, as a stand, we both stood, we got ourselves, I think what we did is we got ourselves against the wall so that nobody could jump us through the back. And we started fighting with them and we stood our ground in there. I know I got hit. The reason I got my lip cut was because I got, the guy that hit me had a ring and we were getting anything, but we were fighting them in there. And the cut most of been some places you bleed a lot. Not that you got a bad cut, but they in certain places of the face. But anyway, that’s when they had, what they did that day is that they took me to [02:43:00] the hospital, the Henrotin Hospital where my mother worked, where they had to stitch me up and my mother found out that what had happened on the fight. Then they took us to, you and myself, we were taken to jail, 18th Street, and I got out with your mom or somebody came from your family to get you out. I don’t think it was your mother. JJ: My father. My father. ADR: Huh? 100 �JJ: My father. ADR: And we both got out at the same-- they let us out at the same time that we got out. That was the fight on there. But the point of that particular fight, as many guys as we took, two of us against the whole group, they couldn’t do shit. JJ: But my point, what I was trying to say was that at that point, Latinos couldn’t go to North Avenue Beach. ADR: The what now? JJ: The Latinos -- Hispanic -- could not go to North [02:44:00] Avenue Beach. It was a white beach. Do you recall that? It was a beach, North Avenue Beach was for the Italians and the Irish. (inaudible) ADR: Well, I mean the police used to favor the whites and now the fighting, that was the whole thing. I mean, what you’re saying, you’re correct. Maybe perhaps we were kind of used about that. You’re correct in that they should have arrested the point that they only arrested us. They didn’t arrest the whites. Okay. Obviously it was a mutual event and it should have been. JJ: But they didn’t want us at the beach. The whites didn’t want us at the beach. Is that incorrect or no? ADR: The what now? JJ: That beach was mainly white. They didn’t want Spanish people there. North Avenue Beach at that time, or am I incorrect? ADR: Not that you’re incorrect. I think that what I recall [02:45:00] from that, for me it was that it was a standard thing that the last day of school there was always going to be a fight. What I do see is the difference of how the police conducted 101 �themselves at that time. So, the prejudice came from the police, not so much the whites, meaning the guys who were fighting. Point was that they should have been, my point in there is that they should have arrested them as much as us because it wasn’t a one-sided kind of situation. Okay, so where you’re seeing the whites that we were fighting as part of the system, you’re not really looking at the authority of how they should have conducted themselves in that particular situation. In other words, they were taking sides. Had we been white and it had the same situation, it would’ve been a total, like who started it or that kind. There was no [02:46:00] question. I mean, me and you, we were busted. They were not. So that thing, I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just seeing it a little bit differently. JJ: From a different point of view. ADR: From a different point of view, and then most of the gang fighting, that’s what took place until they started hiring more Hispanics. That has changed over the years, but a lot, there were quite a few other gang fights and the big ones, there were so many of them. You’re talking about the one by the Rush Street. I mean, you’re talking about a gang fight when we fought on the streets on Rush Street. Old Town, I don’t mean how many times we had fights in Old Town -- gang fights, [02:47:00] confrontations on the streets specifically. I mean, when I mentioned Rush Street, I remember the commotions that we used to cause sometimes, and then when we used to get into fights with the whites. The repeated fights sometimes with people we made peace and then we ended up fighting again for any number of reasons. The fights that were sometimes we 102 �started learning that some of our own guys that had become Young Lords would start fights to make themselves look good, and then we would end up having to fight fights that we started learning from that experience that we would not take our own members word when they would talk about a fight. That’s where we started making any new member-- that led us, I don’t know how long it took us to do this, but [02:48:00] in the later years when we started learning that guys would start fights for no reason to make themselves look good and that kind of stuff, we started requiring all new members that would have to go to Benny’s Pizzeria. Romas, not Benny’s, Romas Pizzeria and fight the group by their own. Remember that? JJ: I remember that. ADR: Romas knew us. I mean, they knew who we were and all that other stuff we used to -- when the guy said, I want to be a Young Lords, well, you got to go out there and you got to fight these guys and see, we got to know how you take-how good of a fighter you are or whatever. So those guys that would go in there, Romas got a hold of what we were doing because later that they said, “Well, that fucking guy can’t take shit.” Or because we used to send ’em and they knew what was coming that time. Soon as Hispanic coming in got a new inductee for the initiation. Yeah, remember that? [02:49:00] And it is kind of funny to look back. I wasn’t like those guys, but we used to do that because, but when we did that because we wanted to know if the guy was -- had it in him or not, because we were tired. We were-- 103 �JJ: So how long was this gang fights then? I mean how many years did this proceed from? Because the Young Lords started around what time? Around what year? ADR: Would’ve been roughly close to five years. JJ: Okay. Close to five years that those gang fightings were going on. So, from what year did the gang start, from your recollection? What year did the Young Lords start? ADR: It’s kind of hard for me to pinpoint a bit because I won’t have to say that in the number of years, more likely the years of fighting would’ve been four, but no more than five. I mean, [02:50:00] we don’t have a round table. I think we got started around 1960, 1961. I’m not sure about the 1961-JJ: Around 1961. Okay. ADR: The period. But it would’ve have been around after 1960. After 1960, that we got started. JJ: And then the gang fighting was four or five years going on. ADR: I’m saying for me, the gang fighting years lasted longer. I’m out of the picture by 1965, at the end of 1965. That’s why I’m saying close to five years because I left in November. JJ: Of 1965 to the service? ADR: When I went into the service. JJ: It was November of 1965. ADR: Right. In 1965, November of 1965. That’s why I’m saying when we’re asking that question about number of years fighting, the fighting continued obviously after I was gone, but I was no longer part of that because I was in the service. And the 104 �reason I decided it was part of it was some of the things that at that point, it was already current with us as [02:51:00] a Young Lords, but Orlando, Fermin, Benny, you were completely out of the list immediately. We said we were going to go into the service together because we were tired of the bullshit that was around us, and we had decided that we were going to go to the service and you were the first one that I can remember in my recollection, I don’t know whether that’s correct or not. My recollection is that your mother, immediately when I found out you were gone and said, “No, you’re not going into that. You were not going to go.” JJ: I didn’t get accepted. ADR: Huh? JJ: I didn’t get accepted because I had children and I had a record. That’s the reasoning. ADR: You didn’t have children back then. JJ: I actually volunteered. I think we marched together to the recruiting station that was on Lincoln Avenue and I was saying, “Let’s go march together.” I was persuading everybody to go march and everybody got accepted except me [02:52:00] and I had persuaded everybody. ADR: Right. Maybe you’re right about that. I’m not going to then, okay, you might be right. Okay. Then Fermin was second. I know that. JJ: Fermin was there. Okay. Who was there? ADR: Fermin was-- his mother got freaked out. JJ: We was march— 105 �ADR: Fermin’s mother freaked out about him going to the service. Benny, because he was close to Fermin, then dropped out. Then Orlando dropped out and I was the one that was left and I said, “Fuck it. I’m not backing out.” And I decided to go in. Okay, so out of the group, I’m the one that-JJ: So, you were going from 1965 to when? ADR: To 1968. JJ: To 1968 to-- because that’s when we started here. That’s when it turned political in 1968. ADR: Right when [02:53:00] we come back, you’re talking a whole different thing that had taken place. Ralph was the one that started getting political. When I came back-JJ: Okay, let’s hold it right there. END OF VIDEO FILE 106 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb0fbf63b71f6e879499cc73be870422.mp4 746487830d8f11961549600761b6eb6f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Angel “Sal” del Rivero vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexicano-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Veteranos--Relatos personales Pandillas--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rivero_Angel_del_1 Title A name given to the resource Angel “Sal” del Rivero video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rivero, Angel del Description An account of the resource Angel “Sal” del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young Lords in 1959. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr. Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Veterans--Personal narratives Gangs--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c1295b70122642973f9f24fa29d3b38a.pdf ff11d5aff141760754660da714e86d16 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: William Quiles Rivera Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/16/2012 Biography and Description English William Quiles is the brother-in-law of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and has been married to Juana “Jenny” Jiménez for over 40 years. They live in Camuy, Puerto Rico where they are surrounded by Mr. Quiles’s many brothers and sisters. Prior to moving to Camuy, Mr. Quiles and Ms. Jiménez met in Aurora, Illinois where they lived for many years, raising their four children, Margie, Joey, Danny, and Sandy. Mr. Quiles has long been active in local softball teams and bowling leagues and worked in the factories. He is well know and respected in both the Aurora and Camuy communities. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Quiles works in construction and built his own cement home. For many years he also worked on the cattle farm of a close friend. Several of his brothers have been active with the Puerto Rican Independence Party. Spanish William Quiles es el cuñado de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez y ha estado casado con Juana “Jenny” Jiménez por más que 40 años. Viven en Camuy, Puerto Rico donde están rodeados con la familia de Quiles. Antes de vivir en Camuy, Señor Quiles y Señora Jiménez se conocieron en Aurora, Illinois donde vivieron por muchos años y criaron a sus hijos, Margie, Joey, Danny y Sandy. Señor Quiles ha sido parte de los juegos de softbol y boliche, y trabaja en una fábrica. Es buen conocido y respectado en la comunidad de Aurora �y Camuy. En Puerto Rico, Señor Quiles trabaja en construcción y construyo su propia casa de cemento. Por muchos años también trabajo en una granja de vacas con un amigo. Unos de sus hermanos han sido activos en el Partido independista Puertorriqueño. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/66c2a3c239231d41113522c94af80601.mp4 28735972964e34699cd511e2e69f95b3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry William Quiles vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry William Quiles es el cuñado de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez y ha estado casado con Juana “Jenny” Jiménez por más que 40 años. Viven en Camuy, Puerto Rico donde están rodeados con la familia de Quiles. Antes de vivir en Camuy, Señor Quiles y Señora Jiménez se conocieron en Aurora, Illinois donde vivieron por muchos años y criaron a sus hijos, Margie, Joey, Danny y Sandy. Señor Quiles ha sido parte de los juegos de softbol y boliche, y trabaja en una fábrica. Es buen conocido y respectado en la comunidad de Aurora y Camuy. En Puerto Rico, Señor Quiles trabaja en construcción y construyo su propia casa de cemento. Por muchos años también trabajo en una granja de vacas con un amigo. Unos de sus hermanos han sido activos en el Partido independista Puertorriqueño. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rivera_William Title A name given to the resource William Quiles video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Quiles, William Description An account of the resource William Quiles is the brother-in-law of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and has been married to Juana “Jenny” Jiménez for over 40 years. They live in Camuy, Puerto Rico where they are surrounded by Mr. Quiles’s many brothers and sisters. Prior to moving to Camuy, Mr. Quiles and Ms. Jiménez met in Aurora, Illinois where they lived for many years, raising their four children, Margie, Joey, Danny, and Sandy. Mr. Quiles has long been active in local softball teams and bowling leagues and worked in the factories. He is well know and respected in both the Aurora and Camuy communities. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Quiles works in construction and built his own cement home. For many years he also worked on the cattle farm of a close friend. Several of his brothers have been active with the Puerto Rican Independence Party. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/af74de5c30671affcb16f5b1666858bc.pdf f438cfde2925327d9c1843a529989a94 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Modesto Rivera Interviewers: Jose “Cha Cha” Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/7/2012 Biography and Description English Modesto Rivera is a Young Lord raised in the La Clark neighborhood, Lincoln Park, and with the Hillbillies of Chicago’s Uptown. His father and uncle, Mario Rivera, were among the first Puerto Rican business owners in the city, operating a grocery store at 733 North Clark Street and advertising on the local, Mexican radio station. In this interview, Mr. Rivera recalls how his uncle was especially well-known because he would give credit on a trust basis to Puerto Rican families, who treated him like the mayor. His uncle did not like Mayor Daley because “every time he would settle down, the neighborhood was forced to move and he was forced to move as well.” Mr. Rivera is a strong community organizer and door-to-door precinct worker. He has worked in many political campaigns, including the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign (1973-1975), Helen Schiller’s Aldermanic Campaign, and the Harold Washington Campaign. During the Washington Campaign, Mr. Rivera worked alongside David Mojica and José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and participated in organizing the first Latino rally held by the Young Lords, in support of electing the first African American mayor in Chicago’s history. Mr. Rivera also worked for the City of Chicago and continues to be active in his community. �Spanish Modesto Rivera es un Young Lord que creció en el vecindario de La Clark en Lincoln Park con los Hillbillies de Chicagos Uptown. Su Padre y tío, Mario Rivera, fueron unos de los primeros Puertorriqueños que era dueño de su propio negocio. Su mercado estaba en 733 North Clark Street y tenia anuncios en la estación mexicana del radio. Durante este entrevista Señor Rivera hable sobre su tío quien fue conocido porque daba crédito en el base de confianza de la familias Puertorriqueñas, quien a cambio lo trataban como alcalde. No le gustaba al Alcalde Daley a su tío porque “cada vez que él se mudaba el vecindario tenia que moverse y él también se tenía que mover.” Señor Rivera es un dedicado organizador para la comunidad y camina de puerta a puerta como trabajador de recinto. El trabajo en muchas campañas políticas, incluyendo la de Jiménez para Alderman (1973-1975), la de Helen Schiller Alderman, y la campaña para Harold Washington. Durante la campaña de Washington, Señor Rivera trabajo con David Mojica y Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez y tomo parte en organizar la primer concentración de Latinos por los Young Lords, en apoyo de elegir el primer alcalde Afro-Americano en Chicago. Señor Rivera también trabajo por la Cuidad de Chicago y continua trabajando como activista en su comunidad. �Transcript [00:00:00 - 00:01:00] (off-topic conversation; not transcribed) JOSE JIMENEZ: Go ahead and tell me when you were born. MODESTO RIVERA: My name is Modesto Rivera. I was born May 17, 1954 in Henrotin Hospital on LaSalle and Oak, which is part of the Chicago and Clark Avenue neighborhood, Chicago, La Clark. JJ: Okay. When you said it was Chicago, La Clark neighborhood, what do you mean? MR: Well, that’s one of the first Puerto Rican communities in Chicago. And -- JJ: So, where were you living then? And you were born -- MR: On my birth certificate -- my birth certificate says 118 West Chicago, which is actually the address of a restaurant that my father owned, the Vencedor, which he actually bought from his brother that went around -- he went around the corner [00:02:00] and opened up The Newberry Grocery Store at 850 North Clark, next to the Newberry Theater, which was across the street. But we called it Bughouse Square, which is actually Washington Square Park. One of the oldest, if not the oldest city park in the city, is Washington Square Park, Bughouse Square. And then down the street at 733 North Clark, my uncle Mario owned a store called Spanish American Store, and that was the most popular one because he actually was there a little longer and he had some good advertising. And the Vencedor was actually across the street, the Chicago Avenue Police Station, 119 West Chicago. And we used to get a lot of 1 �customers that were police officers. And I believe the Vencedor [00:03:00] was actually one of the original liquor license that was given to a Puerto Rican. My uncle got that license, Ramon Monchito Rivera. JJ: And what was that area like? I mean, what do you recall -- MR: I was a baby. But knowing from my parents’ conversation, it was mixed. It was mixed. It was Puerto Rican, Irish. And I just remember that it was one of the first communities. So, I was very young, but I remember them talking about this until I was in my forties, fifties. They would talk about the Vencedor on Chicago Avenue, not the one on Division, because that was actually -- the waitress that worked for my father, Maria and her husband Miguel, they [00:04:00] bought the restaurant and they took it to Humboldt Park, which is now called La Borinqueña. That was the spot where the Vencedor -- and that’s what I know from that part because Henrotin Hospital was -- I don’t know if you’d call it trauma center at the time, but had a lot of actions on weekends, a lot of stabbings and a lot of shootings, Henrotin. It was definitely a drama hospital. JJ: Okay. You were born there, but I mean, were you also from La Clark, that community, or what community were you at? MR: Well, I was there as a child, only my first four years of my life. Eventually, we went to Uptown. [00:05:00] My father moved us up to Uptown 1959. And what happened was that -- the Vencedor was actually building violators, came and actually closed it out. So, it was just a process of getting rid of us. We were just in their way. And opening a business in that time without any political representation, without the banks, financial -- the banks would never lend us 2 �money. So Puerto Ricans had hard times keeping businesses. You had the city quoting you to death, and you had the banks not lending you any money. So, you was always a target for urban renewal displacement, and you had to move constantly. That’s what -- I remembered my dad [00:06:00] telling me, “Every time, Mayor Daley says urban renewal, I got to pack up not only my suitcases to move my family, but I got to reinvest my business.” And that’s not only him, but all his brothers were in the businesses. I think every brother and a couple nephews owned businesses in every section that had a Puerto Rican community at one time. JJ: For example, what -- MR: An example was, my cousin Hector Torres owned the Barranquitas Food Mart on 63rd in Stony Island. One of the original -- also another Puerto Rican community that goes way back. My cousin Johnny Torres and the other Torres, Teddy Torres, they had Johnny Food Mart in Lakeview on Sheffield and Oakdale. My uncle, [00:07:00] Ramon Monchito had the Newberry Grocery Store through the whole ’60s. Uncle Mario, he had the biggest. He had the Campo Food Mart. He had first Spanish American on 733 North Clark on Chicago, La Clark. Then he had the Campo Food Mart on Halsted and Willow from the early ’60s to probably mid ’60s, ’67, ’68. Then he had another one, Mario’s, on Armitage and Sheffield during the ’60s and ’70s. He had another one on Fremont and Armitage, that was in mid ’70s. And my father, he settled in Uptown. He had stores from 1959 to 1971, and a restaurant. JJ: And how [00:08:00] did he run the businesses? I mean, what do you remember 3 �of, say the store at the Campo Foods or in Halsted and Willow? MR: Well, when I used to go visit my uncle in Halsted and Willow, he had one of the biggest. He had the biggest, and he had the most popular one because there was a very heavy community up there in Halsted and Armitage, Halsted and Willow, Sheffield. And I just remember going there and everybody that was Puerto Rican, non-Puerto Rican, they would shop at my uncle’s store, Marianos. And he had three of them in that area, just in that short area. Not all in the same time, but the one on Halsted and Armitage definitely had the longest. And I remember that the Young Lords’ parents [00:09:00] used to go shop in my uncle’s store. And to this day, I go to block parties throughout the city, especially with my father and my neighborhood, I have families, young people or people come up and say, “If it wasn’t for your father and your uncles --” because don’t forget, they had businesses in every part where there was the Puerto Rican community. A lot of us were in need. So Mario would give you credit. A lot of the Young Lords’ families were getting credit from my uncles and my father in Uptown, my cousins in Lakeview, Hector in 63rd in Stony Island, and Monchito Ramon in Newberry Grocery Store, where he stayed all the way through ’67. JJ: Okay. So you got credit. What else was going on? MR: Oh, you got credit, la bodega. [00:10:00] First of all, they were community leaders. They were highly respected from the community, because a lot of people depended on these grocery stores for credit. A lot of the single men would get their mails there. It was a source of information. Some of the stores were named after the towns they’re from. Like Lares Food Mart. My cousin, 4 �Barranquitas Food Mart -- matter of fact, my father’s family is Rivera, and they all come from Barranquitas, the home of the first Puerto Rican governor, Muñoz Rivera and his son, Muñoz Marín. JJ: Were they related at all, or? MR: Well, the whole town’s Rivera. JJ: The whole town’s Rivera? MR: So, you know, when you go to that cemetery, [00:11:00] all you see is Rivera Colon. And that was my father, Modesto Rivera Colon. So, whether they were related in one side of the mountain, maybe not on the other side, or they were all related. JJ: Okay. So you said you moved to Uptown. Where did you live in Uptown? And when did that happen? MR: In 1959, we lived in a hotel on Winthrop Avenue while my father first started his business on 1114 West Leland. Now, at that time, there was no banks that would finance us. So, he was able to get 8,000 dollars from Frank Chase Cardeno which was actually the milkman, one of the milk distributors on the North Side. And that’s how most of the Puerto Rican bodegas would come up. They were backed up by the milk companies. And he opened the store in 1959, [00:12:00] and he specialized in Caribbean and American food. And we had a kitchen. The kitchen was very important because we would -- you know, you ever go to a pizzeria and see the pizza ovens, they make pizzas, the commercial pizza? Well, we made roast pork out of these big commercial ovens. In Uptown, Puerto Rican community was not like Armitage. It had pockets. You might have 5 �one block Puerto Ricans on Leland and Winthrop, another block on Argyle, another block on Montrose and Hazel. Then they had Sheridan and Irving Park. But they would all go to my father’s store because it was the only store that was specialized in that, in Uptown. [00:13:00] And my father’s family, Lo Rivera, they had a big impact in the Puerto Rican community because each community was represented by one of their businesses, and they became not only business people, but they became leaders. They would sponsor -- you came from the island, you didn’t have an apartment, they would go talk to the landlord and say, “They just came in. I give you my word, they’re good tenants. They’ll be good tenants, and they’ll pay the rent.” And this is one of the things that they would do because they knew more Puerto Ricans in the community, of course, would be more business. And it was always a good relationship to be that way, to make it as -- to help the new guys come from the island. [00:14:00] JJ: Okay. And where did you go to school? And when you were in (inaudible)? MR: Well, I got to tell you something, though. Owning these stores did give us a little vantage than most of the neighborhoods. So, we all went to Catholic schools. Most of my cousins went to Catholic schools. I went to St. Thomas of Canterbury on Lawrence and Kenmore, just about a block away from the Aragon Ballroom. And went there for eight years. And to my other cousins, Raymond, they went to St. Alphonso’s, we had people go to St. Teresa’s, we had -- just can’t remember all of them. But most of the cousins would go to Catholic schools. JJ: Okay. I guess going back a little bit, [00:15:00] because you had mentioned to me about the displacement and the Carl Sandburg Village area, and that you 6 �lived also on Clark in Chicago and that. Do you recall that? I mean, what -MR: Well, I recall when I was four years old. Probably it was the last years that we had the Vencedor. We lived right behind North Avenue and LaSalle. There was a gas station right off Lake Shore Drive. And man, I just remember living there. Oh, we no longer had the Vencedor. My parents worked in a restaurant in Old Town. My mother was a cook, and my father was the cook and a waiter. I was only about four or five years old, but I remember that time. And going to Uptown, is where I actually believe my memory with that, because I think [00:16:00] that’s where we settled for the next 13 years. And Uptown was a strange one. It was mixed. It was a mix of Blacks. We had small Black community right across the street of the store that’s been Black for about 100 years, I mean, since the turn of the century. But that was the only block they had. This was before the Civil Rights Movement. We had Puerto Ricans that came, and we had Appalachian whites where I actually grew up with a lot of the children from coal miners that were displaced during the Depression and after the war, when the coal mines closed down. And we had an American Indian population. We had the largest American Indian population outside the reservation due to another government program [00:17:00] trying to -- during the ’50s and ’60s, the government would place Indians from the reservation to urban life to see if they could live the urban life outside the reservation. So we had a 12-square block area, 8 to 12-square block area of Blacks, Appalachian white, Puerto Ricans, and American Indians. And it was a very poor, poor neighborhood. And to me, I think every one of them had their -- it seems like everybody was sponsored by -- I know the Puerto Rican 7 �through to the Operation Bootstrap that was going on in the island. The Indians, through the displacement of the -- bringing them from the reservation to urban life, the Appalachian whites, being displaced economically through either the closing [00:18:00] of the coal mines, and the Blacks that were always migrating from the South. So those four groups, really was the majority of the Uptown that I knew. JJ: And so they kind of came here, like they migrated here. But you mentioned the word displacement. How does that fit into -- MR: I think they were sponsored by -- either the coal miners were displaced when the companies closed. They had to come to places like Uptown looking for jobs. The American Indians were displaced, brought from the reservation to see, it was a program, if they could live in urban life. That didn’t work out too good. Puerto Ricans, what brought Puerto Rico was the Commonwealth status, the Operation Bootstrap to bring Puerto Rico from agriculture [00:19:00] to industrial. That displaced a lot of Puerto Ricans, to come to the -- but we always felt when you wind out in Uptown, it was displacement. But in Uptown, you definitely were in the bottom of the barrel. It felt that way from each of these different groups. We didn’t? have much choices. JJ: Okay. Now you’re talking about you left La Clark around four years old and went to Old Town. Did you ever live in Lincoln Park at all, or? MR: No, I did not. My family, my uncle Mario, lived in Lincoln Park. He based his whole businesses out of Lincoln Park. The Campo and then the two stores, one on Fremont and Armitage, then one on Sheffield and Armitage. 8 �JJ: And that was more a larger community than say -- MR: That was the larger Puerto Rican community. That was a lot, that got to [00:20:00] be 60 percent. JJ: Okay, 60 percent. MR: Well, in Uptown there were only like blocks, one block in each little pockets. JJ: And what was it like, I mean, for you living in Uptown then? MR: In Uptown? Well, being you have your grocery store, you did look at life through a fishbowl. You would look at everybody -- it’s not like I was a little kid, and I could hide or they kept me in the home. They kept me out in the community where -- I worked in this grocery store. All of our cousins worked in our grocery. We all grew up in the business. And I just got to meet so many people from all parts of Uptown. But it was true in the ’60s, and it was a melting pot [00:21:00] that I could not -- the experience was just -- I talked to some friends of mine that I’ve known for over 45 years, and you can’t buy the kind of experience that we had in Uptown, being diversified, but poor in that way. And then you had your gangs. But you had all this conflict between the Blacks and the Appalachian whites and the Indians and the Puerto Ricans. It was just a constant -- it was fighting, a lot of fighting going on. But it was poor. But people watched out for each other, in the sense of you were part of that community. You know how my father described it? He lived in New York 25 years before he came to Chicago. He described it like Hell’s Kitchen. New York Hell’s Kitchen. It was mixed, [00:22:00] and it was what it was. But I enjoyed living in Uptown. JJ: Okay. You get involved in a little activism when you were in Uptown, doing 9 �community work. What were you thinking and how did you get involved? MR: I did almost 20 years of activism in Uptown. How I got involved, what brought my consciousness to a political level, was my father had this grocery store. We also had a restaurant. We had two kitchens we operated. But my father had the grocery store, [00:23:00] and this grocery store (inaudible) big wall, which was actually the book section. And then them days, Puerto Rican women would love their novellas, came in little, little paperbacks. The soap operas came in paperbacks in Spanish, with pictures. So they were a popular book. But my father had these two newspapers. We had three, but one came in later. But the two that we had was the Black Panther newspaper and the Young Lords’ newspaper, Palante. JJ: And this was what store? MR: On Leland Avenue in Uptown. JJ: In Uptown. Okay. MR: And reading, when business would be slow, when I have to go in the back, I would take these -- these were my favorite newspapers. Not the Daily News, not the Chicago Suns, it was just Black Panthers’ and Young Lords’, because I was becoming [00:24:00] to be a teenager and we were reading books like the outside -- was it the out-- we’d see movies like Switchblade, West Side Story, because we already knew those gangs, and those gangs’ activity out in Uptown, very high. But these magazines would do something to me when I was in the back of the store, either doing what I have to do, stocking and stuff. I’d take time to read these magazines. I would read them every day. I would read over these 10 �magazines. And that would kind of give me a little idea what was happening with the activism throughout the city. My little world was from school to home and to the store. These two newspapers would take me to a different part of the city. I was still 14, 15 years old, hanging out [00:25:00] in the corner. JJ: What do you mean in different part of the city? You mean like Lincoln Park? MR: Well, take me to Lincoln Park where I always heard about, where I would go visit my uncle and see the Young Lords, but not go out and communicate with them. I would know about the Young Lords through the newspaper. What happened was, we had a group of guys on Leland and Broadway, about 15 of us, 12 to 15 of us. And we were mixed, from Puerto Ricans to Appalachian whites. Most of us were Puerto Ricans. We had one Japanese. And there was gang recruitment going on, gang wars and stuff like that. But somewhere down the line, these newspapers, the Young Lords’ newspaper was like -- the gangs that was happening, the Latin Kings were coming in and they were recruiting. So, we had the Leland Boys. [00:26:00] We weren’t part of the Leland Boys, but they were another group of Puerto Rican kids and Appalachian kids further west of us, a block west. They would hang out. Our gang of boys, a couple, three blocks north of us, they all became Latin Kings. We were the only group that stayed out of any gangs. We just did not-- We had members, individual members who joined gang. But somewhere down the line, we’ve made a choice, because I used to bring the Young Lords newspaper to them. And I had them read what I would read at my father’s store. And we know we didn’t want to join the Latin Kings. So what happened was my political consciousness came from these two 11 �newspapers, [00:27:00] the Black Panther and the Young Lords newspaper, Palante. But what it also did, it kept me from joining a gang, because at that time, when I was already reading about the Young Lords, they already made their transitional from a street gang to a political group. And this is the group that sounded right to me. So, we wanted to join, but we were just a little too young, 14, 15, 16 years old. And we just felt hanging out and staying neutral was our way. And then I went to the Army in 1972, came back in ’75 was when I first started -JJ: Where did you go? You went to the Army? Where -- MR: I was stationed in Germany for two and a half years. But the [00:28:00] impact -the political consciousness was there from what I was getting from these newspapers. And then what the Army did was put an organizational chart in my mind, the chain of command, code of discipline. Code of conduct. So, by the time I got back out, I was kind of ready to organize, but it took me a couple more years to get to the next step. JJ: How did you feel that the Young Lords were, like against the war in Vietnam at that time? MR: Well, I was against the war at first. I was against the war. And we were all greasers. And what happened was you had the Young Lords, the Black Panther, everybody was against the war. [00:29:00] And then you had that Kent State massacre. And what happened was I hanged up my leather jacket and bought me a field jacket at the Army surplus on Broadway next to -- and then came a little bit more consciousness about that. But in 1972, you joined the Army 12 �because it was part of my family’s tradition. All my uncles on my father’s side. My father was a merchant marine, he was from World War II. All my cousins were in Korea, Vietnam. I joined the Army plus economics. And I was on both sides. I was against the war, but I was also a soldier for reasons, tradition. JJ: So, what are some of the things that you did when you got involved? You said you were doing activism. MR: Well, the first campaign I actually worked in was Cha-Cha’s campaign. And that one, I came in a little too late, [00:30:00] but I did get a good week in it. The last week of the campaign, I went out working with Slim Coleman up on Leland Avenue, up in the Leland Hotel, which was my old hangout back in the ’60s. So, it was obvious that I still knew a lot of people. And we were just canvased a few buildings. The Leland Hotel, we canvased Broadway, Leland, Winthrop in Leland, where I grew up when my father had the store. But we no longer had the store. We moved to Puerto Rico in ’71. But I had a week, I canvased with ChaCha and got out to vote on election day, basically, and plug. I wish I would’ve done more, but at that time, I just got out of the Army in November of ’74. The campaign was happening a couple months right after. JJ: And what did you feel about that campaign? I mean, what -- MR: It was great. I think it was great to have a Puerto Rican, especially Cha-Cha, the leader of the Young Lords, the founder, that took this [00:31:00] street gang and made it into this militant activist organization. And then he wants to run at alderman in one of the poorest neighborhoods that I know of, and most diverse. I think that was the hardest part. And the results were 38 percent, was actually 13 �good for one of the first races for a Puerto Rican. I think there was one more on the West Side, I can’t remember. But I think it was Figueroa. I can’t remember. But to get 38 percent in 1975 as a Puerto Rican candidate, that was a victory by itself. I don’t think any other ethnic group in Uptown would’ve done it if you weren’t white or white with money. Had that money. JJ: Okay. So, you worked on the Jimenez campaign [00:32:00] and there was a good campaign for the community. I mean -- MR: A very great. To me, it was a victory, even though we only got 38 percent of the vote. Out of 10,000, 3,800. That was great. That was great. First time around. JJ: Okay. And then, what happened after that with you? MR: Well, I went to college for a couple years, and -- JJ: Where’d you go to college? MR: I went to Truman, Northeastern, couple semesters. But we had some personal family problems, personal problems that I dealt with after the campaign, which is dealing with myself. And I didn’t start getting active again till 1980. JJ: And what happened in 1980? Did you -- MR: Well, in 1980, they were kind of -- Bernard Carey [00:33:00] was our state attorney. He was the state attorney, the Republican state attorney, and Richard Daley wanted to be state attorney. And we just decided that -- another Daley name after what we went through the ’60s and ’70s, and another 20 -- we supported Bernard Carey. And one of the reasons was that Daley wanted to be state attorney, which would’ve been another step to the City Hall. JJ: Wait, why did you support a Republican then? 14 �MR: We did not wanted another Daley name in power. That’s what it was. And this brought out people that were activists from the ’60s that didn’t see each other for a while. And people from Cha-Cha’s campaign, they kind of dropped out of sight and then all of a sudden you got Daley running, [00:34:00] and he kind of woke up the dead again. And said, “No, not another Daley.” So, we went for Republican candidate, just like the Black community elected Bernard Carey in 1972. Why did they do that? Well, they knew that Hanrahan signed the warrants to kill Black Panthers, Fred Hampton and Mark Clark. So the Black community got together in ’72 and put Bernard Carey in Power. So, in 1980, we still backed up Bernard Carey, knowing that Daley was coming. We didn’t want that Daley name under there. So it kind of woke up some of the cobwebs out of us, that Daley was coming back. [00:35:00] That Daley name was coming back. And that started a whole new movement, you know? A whole new movement from what was kind of limbo in the disco era, I believe. (laughs) I got lost with the disco. And I think the 1980, the Reaganomics and knowing that Daley’s coming back, kind of woke me up. JJ: So, this was 1980. And then what happened after that? MR: It was just one campaign after another. I became a VISTA volunteer for two years, 1981. In 1981, I was a VISTA volunteer. I would go to Milwaukee, worked on a campaign in Milwaukee, worked on a campaign in Cairo, Illinois. And I worked in Uptown as a VISTA volunteer. JJ: [00:36:00] Now, in 1983, Harold Washington was running as the first African American mayor for the city, for mayor. Did you do anything during that time? 15 �MR: Well, in 1982 there was a coalition formed with Uptown, South Side with Jesse Jackson, West Side with Cha-Cha Jimenez. And we started spearheading voter registration drive. But the good thing -- the part was that we were meeting back in ’82 already. Go to 18th Street, go to 26th Street, go to Humboldt Park, Wicker Park, and we would take classes at the Operation Rainbow on Saturday mornings about voter registration, [00:37:00] because it was the first time that the voter registration outreach came out, where you actually volunteered to do voter registration, making deputies. At that time, you had to do it at the junctions or the polling places. Now, they did the outreach program. That was the first year. So, they were teaching a lot. And we took that advantage and went with it and made -- I don’t even know the numbers, but it was voter registration. Everybody I knew became a voter registrar. And then in ’83, I hooked up with Cha-Cha in the Logan Square, West Town, Humboldt Park area. We had an office on Fullerton and Western, right? I think about a block and a half from Mell’s ward [00:38:00] office. JJ: Richard -- MR: Richard Mell, 33rd ward. And he was actually spearheading the opposition. He was with Byrne, I believe. JJ: Stone, I think. Bernard Stone. MR: No. Don’t forget we had a primary. We had Daley, Byrne, and Washington. JJ: That’s correct. MR: So, I think Mell went with -- JJ: Daley, I think. 16 �MR: -- Daley. JJ: Yeah. No clue. I’m not sure. But anyway, so you were working out of the Fullerton office? MR: Mm-hmm. With Cha-Cha, some union people. And Cha-Cha had this great idea that I remember we couldn’t use the Young Lords’ name. [00:39:00] But he was working on a project already with this guy, Frank Espada from Washington D.C., the Puerto Rican Diaspora Documentary project. And they gave us permission to kind of use their name. And we had the Puerto Rican Diaspora Coalition. And I actually think there was only two Puerto Rican groups actually or two Hispanic groups, two Puerto Rican groups that literally came out in public to support Harold Washington. We were one of them. Can’t remember who was the other one? Maybe Reverend Morales? Everybody else, like on the -- either backing off or they were between Daley and Byrne. We were the only two Puerto Rican groups that I remember that actually came out publicly, on the literature. [00:40:00] And that was, to me -- JJ: And so, when was the first actions? Was the Northwest? What was one of the first actions? MR: Well, first action was we had the big rally at the Northwest Hall. And Jesus, I remember Cha-Cha, he was telling me, he kept telling me there’d be over 500 people coming to this. I said, “Cha-Cha, you for real? Come on.” We worked down there for almost a month. And I swear to God, when it was that night, there was over 700 people come to that rally. And I remember when Harold Washington came -- because we would discuss the theme song of the Night. 17 �And when Harold Washington walked in, the “Eye of the Tiger” was the theme song for Harold Washington. When he came up the stage, [00:41:00] Cha-Cha gave him a pava, a Puerto Rican jibaro hat. And he wore it saying “Viva Puerto Rico!” That was pretty neat. But I didn’t think we would get the 700, and we got it. And also, we were still doing the campaign in these five wards. I had 15 precincts in the 33rd that I was concentrating on. There was a couple other people. But I remember Cha-Cha was telling us that we would need to -- we had the union people, hell, a lot of union people out there. But we were troubleshooters. I remember now that there’d be a building where some people weren’t comfortable going in. Couple of them across the street at Humboldt Park, one on the Boulevard. And they would send us, Cha-Cha, me and the group. [00:43:00] And we talked to these guys. And what it was, by the end of the day, we had every one-percenter, what we call one-percenter anti-socialbehavior registered and ready to vote for Harold Washington. Otherwise, there was a lot of high crime buildings or maybe narcotics going on. And these people were just terrified. And I remember Cha-Cha, he’d go in these buildings, and he told me, “Modesto, this is --” And that’s what was our job. One of our jobs was troubleshooting trouble buildings. And the trouble buildings was that the people weren’t comfortable with these people. And we came in. I remember a walk, it was the strangest thing. Berrios, Congressman Berrios came to work on the Harold Washington campaign, because Harold Washington was a congressman [00:43:00] and we did a walk -JJ: Herman Badillo. 18 �MR: Herman Badillo. What did I say? JJ: You said Berrios, but -- MR: Okay, Herman, the Congressman from New York, he came and worked on the campaign. He did a walk on Milwaukee Avenue, and we were on Milwaukee and Damen and North Avenue, and Cha-Cha and I were advancing. We had to do advance to kind of pick out good businesses, where we could [initiate?]. And one of the businesses was the Double Door Saloon -- Bar. And we told the congressman, this you should go in. And some of the people that were with the congressman from Chicago, they were advising him, “No, no. You don’t want go there. It’s a trouble bar.” And the congressman told [00:44:00] them, “I’m from the Bronx.” And he walked in the Double Door Saloon, man. Machinecontrolled, hardcore saloon. And this Puerto Rican congressman from New York shook every hand on behalf of this Black congressman. It was great. It was Polish, Ukrainian, Puerto Ricans. And then I knew, for some reason, we knew that they were outreaching. This was really done by really, really -- you know, it was great because Cha-Cha would go up ahead and say, “These are the people you need to talk to, the disenfranchised. Not the established Puerto Ricans here. The ones that no one’s talking to.” And there was another incident where we felt, [00:45:00] that I felt I was in the right movement here where Celia Cruz came to the Aragon, and it was one of -- I think the promoter was [Donny?] Ramos. And we went in as security for Harold Washington. And this one was a definitely allout working-class Puerto Rican community. And the feel -- we did not know how they would set Harold Washington. Because don’t forget, there was only two 19 �groups that supported Harold Washington. And the rest was between Daley and Byrne. But when Celia Cruz, the Queen of Salsa, introduced the next Mayor, mi negrito of the City of Chicago, Harold Washington, [00:46:00] and that 3,000 people just responded. 3,000, mostly Boricua, which I believe was the full house, maybe 5,000, the Aragon. And the response to that, then I knew for some reason, between the Northwest Hall, 700, the Walk on Milwaukee Avenue, going to that Double Door Saloon, that reaction was the -- Polish, Ukrainian, and Puerto Ricans that were in there. And the response of the Aragon Ballroom, when Celia Cruz introduced Harold Washington, I knew then we were winner. For some reason, I knew the Puerto Rican community was going to come out for Harold. And that was a good campaign. That campaign started -- it made [00:47:00] veterans out of us. You never were politically active, you worked that campaign, you were a veteran. You didn’t have to work another one. That was a good campaign. JJ: So, okay. Modesto, if you can tell me, what do you think is the legacy of the Young Lords? MR: The Young Lords in my life, the legacy is -- be perfectly honest with you, when I was in the store, in la bodega de mi papa, and reading the Young Lords’ paper and lifting my mind and thinking about that, and I had a choice. Do I want to be a Young Lord or do I want to be a gangbanger, that was disruptive behavior? What I thought the Young Lords did to me and to my little gang on Leland and Broadway, was to keep us neutral [00:48:00] and keep us away from the criminal gang activity. And it put us into a positive, progressive political future, which 20 �actually most of my friends, wind up working for the cities, because we followed that route. But the ones that followed the other gangs, most of them are dead and went to prison. And to this, the legacy to me is that they made political lead activists out of us, out the ones that were just right behind them. And they were made more political activists of future kids, because the Young Lords’ story will be told throughout the curriculum from now on, because I think it’s just -- the way the economy is and the way world is now, no one’s watching out for the other person. [00:49:00] And I think these issues that the Young Lords -- the struggle has been going on for the last 40 years. We’ve been there, but we’re going to bring this next generation into the web of things, because things are getting worse. And we need another young wave of activism. And I think more young people that read and hear about the Young Lords, then these ideas will pop. Because I’d be perfectly honest with you, I believe the Young Lords -- reading these little papers in my father’s store, saved my life. JJ: Okay. How do you -- saved your life in terms of the crime, or? MR: That I never -- besides my parents, of course, guidance, the Young Lords put a political consciousness in me to do [00:50:00] positive things in the sense of political. My faith in God, I keep. My parents taught me to do well. But the Young Lords lift my political consciousness where I did not get into the trap of other young kids joining gangs and negative gangs. Let’s say if I joined a gang, it was definitely a positive gang like the Young Lords. I always felt like a Young Lord in my heart, because I believe -- what they were doing, I believe in them. So to me, in my heart, I’m a Young Lord, just in the actions that I did. I did not go 21 �gangbanging, but I went and became an activist. That’s it. JJ: Okay. Now, after or later on, you did work within the city. MR: Oh, yes. JJ: So, how did that come about? MR: Well, I worked 23 years with the city. I’m semi-retired. [00:51:00] I’ve been working campaigns ever since. My last good campaign was in 2009 where I worked for Mike Quigley for congressman. I stayed three months in that campaign. And I stayed a month working for Obama in 2008. He’d take me to Iowa, these little bus tours. But we do phone bank and things like that. But the campaigns nowadays are not like the ones that we used to do. It’s more of a human touch. JJ: So, if you actually worked for the Obama campaign, you can kind of extend it all the way to -- MR: Yeah. Well, I’m still active. I’m still active. For some reason, what was taught to us in the ’60s towards the movement and the Young Lords and the Black Panthers, it seems it build a seed, and [00:52:00] something I believe that young people are missing. And I think it’s going to come back. I think it’s going to come back. And I hope. JJ: Any final words that you want to say at this point or that you think maybe we missed or that are important? MR: Well, sometimes when you interview, you get thinking about other things. I wish that the Young Lords would -- because, you know, people come and you have to continue struggling for other people, not just for yourself, [00:53:00] but for the 22 �other people and for the next generation. And when you talk about the Young Lords, people will say, “Oh, I remember the Young Lords. Oh, they’re still around? Oh, the Young Lords.” But all the benefits -- no, not the benefits, but all the social programs and all the things that Latinos are taking for granted in other groups, it was groups like the Young Lords and the Black Panthers and the Young Patriots that started. And of course, they’re still around through the programs, through the things -- through your rights, through Latino rights, you know? That’s how they’re round. And I wish people would not think that the Young Lords died out. The spirit is still there. They’re like legends. And every time Cha-Cha comes to town, I say, “Man, I’m riding with the legend.” (laughs) That’s it. END OF VIDEO FILE 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a83561c6bcd6375ffda20fb860d0a20.mp4 ee4a05ca39216f98be526a306e5a3176 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Modesto Rivera vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Modesto Rivera es un Young Lord que creció en el vecindario de La Clark en Lincoln Park con los Hillbillies de Chicagos Uptown. Su Padre y tío, Mario Rivera, fueron unos de los primeros Puertorriqueños que era dueño de su propio negocio. Su mercado estaba en 733 North Clark Street y tenia anuncios en la estación mexicana del radio. Durante este entrevista Señor Rivera hable sobre su tío quien fue conocido porque daba crédito en el base de confianza de la familias Puertorriqueñas, quien a cambio lo trataban como alcalde. No le gustaba al Alcalde Daley a su tío porque “cada vez que él se mudaba el vecindario tenia que moverse y él también se tenía que mover.” Señor Rivera es un dedicado organizador para la comunidad y camina de puerta a puerta como trabajador de recinto. El trabajo en muchas campañas políticas, incluyendo la de Jiménez para Alderman (1973-1975), la de Helen Schiller Alderman, y la campaña para Harold Washington. Durante la campaña de Washington, Señor Rivera trabajo con David Mojica y Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez y tomo parte en organizar la primer concentración de Latinos por los Young Lords, en apoyo de elegir el primer alcalde Afro-Americano en Chicago. Señor Rivera también trabajo por la Cuidad de Chicago y continua trabajando como activista en su comunidad. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rivera_Modesto Title A name given to the resource Modesto Rivera video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rivera, Modesto Description An account of the resource Modesto Rivera is a Young Lord raised in the La Clark neighborhood, Lincoln Park, and with the Hillbillies of Chicago’s uptown. Mr. Rivera was a strong community organizer and door-to-door precinct worker. He has worked in many political campaigns, including the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign (1973-1975), Helen Schiller’s Aldermanic Campaign, and the Harold Washington Campaign. During the Washington Campaign, Mr. Rivera worked alongside David Mojica and José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and participated in organizing the first Latino rally held by the Young Lords, in support of electing the first African American mayor in Chicago’s history. Mr. Rivera also worked for the City of Chicago and continues to be active in his community. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e9d58469f3dbcda7e71bed934653ca6.pdf d809108ab4f732216e5b207afa01290c PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Dylcia Noemi Pagán Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/15/2012 Biography and Description English Dylcia Pagán was born to Puerto Rican parents in 1946 at Lincoln Hospital in the Bronx, New York City and raised in East Harlem. She became a child star, performing every week on NBC’s “Children’s Hour.” After losing her parents at the age of 20, she became an activist, participating in voter registration drives and working for the Community Development Agency (CDA) evaluating poverty programs throughout the City of New York. In 1969, Ms. Pagán decided to attend Brooklyn College where she co-founded the Puerto Rican Student Union that resulted in the formation of a student-controlled Puerto Rican Studies Department that is still in existence today. She continued a long career in media, becoming the first Puerto Rican woman television producer in New York City. Ms. Pagán has worked as a producer, writer, and filmmaker, developing investigative documentaries and children’s program on nearly every major television network. She also worked as the English editor for the city’s first bilingual daily newspaper, El Tiempo, and authored a popular daily column in that same paper. In 1978, Ms. Pagán was subpoenaed by a Grand Jury to testify in connection with the arrest of her companion, William Morales. At the time, she was three months pregnant with her son, Guillermo, and �she refused to testify. Sometime in 1979 she went underground with her son. She was arrested in 1980, charged with seditious conspiracy for fighting for the independence of Puerto Rico, and was sentenced to 63 years in prison. She was released from prison on September 10, 1999 after a long campaign in the United States, Puerto Rico, and internationally pressured President Bill Clinton to give she and nine of her co-defendants a Presidential Conditional Clemency. She lives and works in Puerto Rico. Spanish Dylcia Pagán nació a padres puertorriqueños en 1946 en Lincoln Hospital en los Bronx de Nueva York y creció en el East Harlem. Se hizo una estrella infantil siendo parte de “Children’s Hour” en NBC. A los 20 años perdió sus padres y se convirtió un activista, trabajando con registraciones de votes y también con la Community Development Agency (CDA) que evalúa programas de pobreza en Nueva York. En 1969, Señora Pagán decidió atender Brookly College donde ayudo a fundir el Puerto Rican Student Union que resulto con la formación de un Departamento de estudias puertorriqueñas que es controlado por los estudiantes (todavía existe hoy). Señora Pagán continuó una carera en la media de comunicación y fue la primera productora puertorriqueña en la ciudad de Nueva York. Trabajo como productora, escritora y cineasta desarrollando documentarias investigas y programas de niños en cada estación mayor de televisión. También trabajo con un editor Ingles para el primer periódico bilingüe en la cuidad, El Tiempo, y también escribió una sección de ese mismo periódico. En 1978 un Gran Jurado dio una citación para que Pagán daría un testifico en conexión con el arresto de su compañero, William Morales. Durante este tiempo estaba tres meses embarazada con su hijo Guillermo y rechazo testificar. En 1979 se escondo con su hijo. La arrestaron en 1980 y la cargaron con sedicioso de conspiración por pelear por la independencia de Puerto Rico y recibió una condona de 63 años encarceladas. Después de una campaña larga en los Estados Unidos, Puerto Rico, e internacional Presidente Bill Clinton le dio el Presidential Conditional Clemency a Pagán y 9 otros, el 10 de Septiembre, 1999. Ahora vive y trabaja en Puerto Rico. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible) DYLCIA PAGAN: Sure. My information? Sure. My name is Dylcia Pagán Rivera, ’cause Puerto Ricans can’t forget their mother’s name if they’re not bastards. I reside now in Puerto Rico, I live in Loíza, since I was, let’s see... I was born October 15, 1946. I consider myself not an elder but a wise woman. I’m one of the ex-Puerto Rican political prisoners, former television reporter, producer, writer, artist, holistic healer, and an activist for the independence movement of Puerto Rico. A revolutionary woman. JJ: But you were born in New York, you said? DP: I was born in the former controversial Lincoln Hospital, in the Bronx, but I was raised in East Harlem which is the second community where Puerto Ricans migrated to New York City. So it was -- East Harlem started from 96th Street to 125th Street. So that’s where I was raised, all my -- most of my life. [00:01:00] Yeah, most of my life. JJ: So then, the second community that went there, like, in the late ’40s, or...? DP: I would say -- well, I would say maybe early ’40s because -- JJ: Early ’40s. DP: -- my grandfather was a -- my mother was the one who got my father from Yauco. My father left Yauco when he was 17, [Sebastián Pagán?], he became a plumber but he was a [cadete de don?] Pedro Albizu Campos Nationalist Party. My mother went to Hunter High School -- Hunter College, my grandfather was 1 �one of the first bodegueros, grocery store owners, in East Harlem. It is said that by 1917, my grandfather had seven bodegas through East Harlem. JJ: Through East Harlem, okay. DP: Yeah. JJ: So then -- DP: So that she was raised in New York, but she would fly to Puerto Rico, or come on the boat, because sometimes there were no planes, at that time. But when I was raised, East Harlem was divided -- it was very interesting, because, being the second community where Puerto Ricans migrated to, well, Puerto Ricans did like we always do. We hang out in municipalities [00:02:00] in our area, so like 108 belonged to the people from Yauco, 109th were the people from Juanica, 110th were the people from different parts of the island, so that they had different communities -- I think that sound is affecting us. Guys, we’re taping! Hey! Brothers! Panama, we’re filming! JJ: -- talking about (inaudible). DP: My mother was from Guánica, my father from Yauco. And my grandfather had, 1917, my family always says that he had about seven or eight bodegas, which are Puerto Rican small grocery stores. I consider myself a very privileged child because -- JJ: And this is, you said, East Harlem? DP: East Harlem, el barrio. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Even though now they wanna change it to East Harlem -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) not too familiar -- 2 �DP: -- no, we’re still East Harlem -- I know, you guys are from Chicago, I’m from el barrio, New York City. So, I was raised in an atmosphere as an only child, I was very privileged. I got to go to private schools, not by choice but by accident I [00:03:00] went to Catholic schools. At five and a half years old, I was on the Children’s Hour on NBC TV, which is a children’s show by the Horn & Hardart. It was very interesting because I started as a singer, and then a producer called the house and asked my mother, my mother said, “Well, you talk to Dylcia and see what she wants to do.” So, she asked me, “Do you think you can learn a script?” I said, “Absolutely.” So one of the little stars of the show, Eileen Mary Parluck, had gotten sick, so I had to take over her role, and there was a guy dressed as a dog called Maribone the Talking Dog. So I became his best friend. JJ: (inaudible) DP: Yeah. So the show opened up with east side, west side, the theme song, Ed Herlihy, which was the voice of Kraft products, was the host of the show. So I had an incredible childhood, because being on television as a dancer and an actress, I got to work out all my fantasies, I think, as a, you know, as an actress, because I’ve been a dog, a cat, [00:04:00] you name it, I’ve done it. But in the same token, when I got chosen, when I was chosen to be one of the opening stars of the show, I’ll never forget what my parents told me at dinner. “Do you want to do this?” And I said, “Oh yes.” They said, “Okay, you’re gonna do this, but remember, you’re gonna go to a different world. It’s a all-white world.” My mother said, and father told me, “And the most important thing about this experience is that they’re not better than you are.” And I said, “How come?” 3 �“Just because you’re Puerto Rican.” And I said, “What does that mean?” “It means because you have a culture, you have a history, you have music. And if the Jews have Hanukkah, you have the Three Kings, [Los Reyes de Mago?].” I have never forgotten that. And I think that’s the most important essence of my life, is because, I really believe now that I’ve gone through what I’ve gone through in life. If you know who you are, you never lose your commitment to yourself and to your country and what you really believe in. [00:05:00] My father being a nationalist always taught me about don Pedro Albizu Campos, who was the -- not the founder but one of the biggest image of the Puerto Rican Nationalist Party, which I’m honored today to tell you that I am now the new Secretary of Women Affairs of the Puerto Rican Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico, I was just -JJ: Congratulations. DP: Yeah, so it’s a big honor, it’s an honor. Given the reality that our Lolita Lebrón just passed away, and she was one of our -- my biggest loves of my life, well let’s go back to my childhood. So, I grew up in East Harlem. And, at an early age, my parents were always concerned that even though I had a privileged life in many ways... That we would always be involved in the communities. And then at that time, there was every Puerto Rican’s hangout. Well, they had social clubs. JJ: And did you mention your mother’s name (inaudible) DP: My [00:06:00] mother’s name was Delia Lidia Rivera, which is her maiden name, and my father’s name is Sebastián Pagán. Yeah. And he was known as -- 4 �“Delia and Bachán,” everybody always says, “You’re Delia and Bachán’s daughter,” you know? Especially here in Puerto Rico. What is that? (loud environmental noise) (inaudible) The sounds of Loíza are coming down upon us. So that, at an early age, even though it was on television, one of the things that my parents always were involved in, was I would go to perform at all the social clubs. JJ: You said you were on television, what (inaudible)? DP: At NBC, I said that, the Children’s Hour on NBC TV, yes. So I did it live. Not like Saturday Night Live, like real live television, (inaudible) from 1952 till 1959. Every Sunday, I had to go rehearse on Saturdays, and then film, do the show -not film, live, on NBC, on NBC Channel 4. [00:07:00] It was a great experience, I mean, I’ve worked with -- I got to be on the Hit Parade, I got to meet the people from Howdy Doody show, I worked with incredible people in my life so I think it also gives you a broader spectrum of life. But being raised in East Harlem, I was able to live the reality of what it is to live in a community that’s surrounded by poor people, really. My parents were working-class people, we weren’t rich. But we had -- I lived in a private house in the middle of East Harlem, you know. But I was also taught that whatever I had, I had to share. And I think that’s very important. My father passed away when I was 15. At 18 years old, I became the youngest community organizer with the poverty programs in New York City, in East Harlem. I worked for MEND, Massive Economic Neighborhood Development, and became a researcher with them. Then I went to work for the city of New York, I became an evaluator. And that’s where the lightbulb came 5 �out. [00:08:00] I got to evaluate all the property programs. And everybody was “maximal feasible participation of the poor,” and what we found out in evaluating the programs, that there was no participation of the poor. It was very minimal, it wasn’t maximum. That the system was maintaining -- the conditions were improving, but the people weren’t given the power to control their lives. At that period in time, I decided to go to Brooklyn College. Because of my parents’ consciousness, I was involved in a lot of community activities. As an organizer, well, I did a lot of housing work, educational work, youth work, health work, and the Young Lords came to existence in East Harlem. At that time, I was at Brooklyn College organizing the Puerto Rican students, and then while the Lords were doing the second church takeover, in New York, I was organizing the Puerto Rican Student Union. [00:09:00] Their office was, like, a block and a half away from my house, where I grew up, but I lived on 110th Street, so the second church takeover, my house was the central control for all public relations, because I lived around the block. I wasn’t a member of the Young Lords, but I definitely supported them, and to be honest I think that’s something important to talk about. What’s the importance of the Young Lords, and I think that’s... JJ: What is the importance? Yeah. DP: Yes! It’s a very important part of my life, and I think people should know about it. Especially here in Puerto Rico, and anyone who’s studying sociology, anyone that’s studying any aspect of the development of people’s lives. The Lords played a significant role in East Harlem. Why? Because they were all young people. You know? Juan, Felipe, (inaudible) David, were all -- Yoruba, were all 6 �young brothers that were college students, and they created the party because they went to Chicago and met you guys, am I [00:10:00] correct? JJ: That’s correct, yeah. DP: And it’s from your influence, of the young Lords in Chicago, that the Young Lords arise in New York City, in East Harlem. JJ: We kinda influenced each other with (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DP: I guess, yeah. JJ: We all influence each other. DP: We do, and the truth of the matter, I think we’re all living under the same conditions. That’s how we started the Puerto Rican Student Union, because we had Puerto Rican Studies departments throughout the city of New York and New Jersey, and we all faced the same enemy, we faced the same problems, so we created the union to be able to put together our strategies. So, getting back to the importance of the Lords, I think what the Lords did was they were able to demystify the image of what the people had, of what a revolutionary young man - and women. Because when they first came to East Harlem, they called ’em “lo’ peludo’,” “the kids with the big hair,” you know. And they wore the army jackets. But I also believe that they also taught the community, [00:11:00] when you take it upon yourself to teach people how to survive, and how to defend that which is yours, a level of respect emerges. And I believe when the Lords took over, did the first garbage strike, that they took over the trucks and they burned the fire, the garbage, they knew that they were for real. When they started doing the health services in our community, against lead poisoning of our children, most of 7 �our people didn’t know about lead poisoning, ’cause nobody knew. People were not educated in that field of consciousness. So that the Lords, I always say “[Lo’ Balbu?],” became the teachers to the people. And it was unbelievable, when we took over that church, that next morning, I was there, I did 11 days. JJ: So you went [right?] in the church. DP: Absolutely. I went, that morning, I didn’t go to the first takeover but I went to the second one. I walked in and David Perez tells me, “Hey Dylcia, come on, you’re gonna be security in the basement.” I said, “You got it. [00:12:00] Right on.” I’d spent 11 days, I was then dating a friend of -- a man, who was my boyfriend, who was the deputy commission [on the?] United States Commission on Human Rights. So his federal [call?] would sit in front of the People’s Church. JJ: What was his name? DP: [Bob de León?], [Roberto?] de León. He’s still my friend, we’re still dear friends. So it’s funny. So we took over the church, and I remember, when the pigs were outside and they couldn’t open up, I looked at the guy, I said, “Let’s sing,” so we sang -- what was that song? It was a gospel song, and in the videos that I -- it’ll come to me. But it was wonderful, because for the first time, we saw how these young people, young men, and myself included, showed our community that churches are not there to just have Sunday meetings. The irony is that my mother’s aunt used to come every Sunday from Simpson Street, to go to services there, but that church never [00:13:00] opened up for any services of community, so it had to be taken over. And it was. That next morning, all the welfare mothers, and everybody -- from the windows, they were bringing us bottles of 8 �milk, loaves of bread, you know, and our people’s support -- I had never made so many scrambled eggs in my lifetime. I must’ve made 75 dozen scrambled eggs for the first day. But it was an incredible experience, how the community came inside, and they got to understand not only about the Young Lords but about the question of Puerto Rican independence. About, why was our nation a colony? And we started the breakfast programs, and we started PE classes, educational programs for the children. And we had clothing drives. So that it became -JJ: So how was that educational (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Well, I think what happened was, to have an open morning program, we had to have a theme. So we taught the children about the theme, you know, Indians, they learned about [00:14:00] who their ancestors was, and when you know that you come from a warrior family, that gives you a self-pride, you know? And I think, even till this day, that’s very relevant in our society. Till this day, our history and our cultural beauty, our essence, needs to be expounded more. Our young people do not know who they really are. And that needs to be done. And that’s something I’m working on, but let’s continue about the Lords. What happened with me and the Lords, because I was with PRSU -- JJ: The Puerto Rican Student Union? DP: The Puerto Rican Student Union, I’m sorry, yes. Eventually the Puerto Rican Student Union became an entity of the Young Lords in New York. I had then left the PRSU because I went to do some independent film work for the first time on cable television, La Voz de la Comunidad was my first program. But I still supported the Lords, and whatever the Lords needed, I was able to provide for 9 �them. [00:15:00] They needed a place to use the phones, they used my house. They needed a place, I mean, two o’clock in the morning, a compañero’s funeral, Roldán, right? JJ: Julio Roldán. DP: Julio Roldán. I got a call from Yoruba, he says, “Listen, we need to put out --” I said, “All right. Let me call the director of the Johns -- James Weldon Johnson,” (inaudible), who then became assistant dean at Hunter College, but he was then the director. I called him, he said, “What do you want?” Took a cab to the Bronx, “Give me the keys.” He went upstairs and we were able to print all the information necessary for the next day. They didn’t have money for the rent, and I then became a producer, of course! What do you do with your money? You help your people. So that’s what I did. The People’s Church, we did the most beautiful New Year’s Eve celebration ever in the history of New York City. I was able to acquire every -- every artist imaginable came to perform, and Pedro Pietri, [00:16:00] our dear -- from the “Puerto Rican Obituary,” that is not the first place he went, people say that, it’s not true. Pedro was my dear friend, Pedro wrote the “Obituary” in my house and read it at Brooklyn College, where I paid him. I didn’t pay him, the [department?] paid him. So he always says, when he was alive, and he’s still alive, ’cause he lives in spirit, he’s alive, he always said, “Dylcia took me out of the closet.” And it was definitely the poetry closet, not the gay or lesbian closet, had to make that very clear because he made it clear here in Puerto Rico after I came out of prison. Okay? So the Lords were... So impactful, and I think what happened was, Felipe and I became very very -- till 10 �this day, my closest friends are part of the members of the men of the central committee. Micky Melendez, Panama, Felipe Luciano, was dear friends, [Lu Garnacosta?], we’re still friends, Tony, [00:17:00] you know, Joe Perez, we’re still friends. And I think that tells you something. And I think -- not I think, I know, it’s not that I think, I know. When you have something that’s part of you, that’s your essence. And I believe that those of us that were involved in the ’70s in our struggle for national liberation and who continue forward, even till this day, in whatever work we’re doing, when you don’t lose that essence of your commitment to struggle, then you are a total human being. ’Cause I think, the true human being is he who has, or she, who has an essence of who they are, but a commitment to life and to their people. And I can say that my comrades, because they are my comrades, ’cause while I was in prison they never forgot me. And in freedom, they’ve never forgotten me. So April 4th, 1980, I was arrested, in Evanston, Illinois. (phone ringing) JJ: Do you wanna get that first, [00:18:00] or? DP: Uh? JJ: I said, do you wanna get that first, or? DP: No, no, I’m -- what? That, I don’t answer that, no no, that’s nonsense. JJ: Yeah. And what day? DP: April 4th, 1980, I was arrested in Evanston, Illinois, with 10 of my other comrades. Prior to that, my son’s father was William -- is William Morales. He was the first member of the FALN, which is the Armed Forces for National Liberation, and I 11 �can say it, it was an honor, it’s an honor to be able to tell people that I was part of a revolutionary movement that took the time to create political military acts for the future of my country Puerto Rico. Some people may not understand that. But I believe if you believe in something that profoundly, you have to do it to the end to whatever -- by any means necessary, as brother Malcolm said. My commitment to struggle, I have no regrets. I did 20 years in prison, for the future of my country. [00:19:00] The biggest sacrifice I had to endure was my separation from my son, who was 13 months. And of course, my career. I gave up what I used to do, but I had a new career inside, which was to create a new level of activities inside the prison, to create not revolutionary consciousness, but human consciousness of kindness, because I think people don’t understand that when people are in prison, most -- the most brilliant people I have shared 20 years with, believe me, I had a theatre company, I did holistic healing programs, an art exhibit for the last 5 years I was in prison, I taught aerobics, I taught art, sculpturing, block printing, you name it. But -JJ: And this was in prison? DP: In prison, yes. I did it because I had to survive, but also it was my way of sharing my talents. So that I could create a sacred place for [00:20:00] me of survival, but also share my knowledge that I walked into the doors with the people that I was sharing my life with. JJ: You had never been in jail before? DP: No, I’d been arrested, but I’d never been in jail. No. JJ: And you got arrested for... 12 �DP: I got arrested at the People’s Church. JJ: At the People’s Church. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: At the People’s Church, I’ve been arrested at demonstrations since 1967. JJ: All these were demonstrations? DP: Oh yeah, demonstrations, yeah, then of course we were let go. JJ: So, what were you thinking, then? I mean, what was your thinking -- DP: When I got arrested? JJ: I mean, yeah, I mean, how -- DP: Well, I think, when you -- JJ: Were you worried, were you concerned, or...? DP: Well, when one commits themself to the level of commitment of struggle that we were in, two things happen to you. JJ: Which was by any means necessary (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Yes, we were part of the unarmed guerrilla -- we were part of an urban guerrilla movement in the United States. In the United States. In Puerto Rico, we had the Macheteros, in the United States we had the FALN. [00:21:00] Not that I lived my life in fear, but I think, if you’re an intelligent human being and you know your politics and you know what struggle is about, two things can happen. You get busted, or you die. Those are the two ends. And, when we got busted, I wanted to leave my child? No. JJ: You were clear on that in the beginning. DP: Oh, absolutely, I mean, I wouldn’t -- JJ: Two things can happen, busted or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 13 �DP: Exactly. I mean, I didn’t -- people sometimes -- JJ: And everybody was clear on that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DP: Oh, absolutely. Let me just say something, I think it’s very important. I do many lectures, in the last 12 years in freedom I’ve lectured all over the United States, I’ve been to Venezuela, Cuba, Spain... But, everybody asks me the question. “How did you -- what happ-- how did you -- what was your --” I’m not Oprah Winfrey, but, “What was your ‘a-ha moment’? Your revolutionary a-ha moment?” And I tell everyone, “Jesus Christ didn’t talk to me in my ear, Che Guevara [00:22:00] didn’t appear, don Pedro Albizu Campos didn’t visit me.” When you are able to see the reality of the life existence of your people and you’re able to see the contradictions of survival, you make a commitment in life. And that was my commitment, I believed in the freedom of my country. And there isn’t a country in the world that has not been involved in some form of armed struggle to get their liberation. And that was a moment -- that was a time in history, we had the examples of Cuba, we had the examples of the Vietnamese struggle, and the victory of Vietnam. We’ve had the Tupamaros, so that when we make a commitment to create -- to be part of this organization, it wasn’t that I wanted -- I don’t believe -- none of us is violent. There is not a person that’s violent, doesn’t exist in a part of myself. I’m a woman of consciousness, and the methodology at that time was doing political military acts, and that’s what we endured. [00:23:00] So that on April 4th at 2:20, we were stopped in a van, and we looked at each other, Carmen Valentín, who is from Chicago, we became comadres. Oh, we’re 14 �the best of friends, and we’ll be for this life and whatever existence comes after. Because I couldn’t see my son. JJ: So you said the methodology of that time was armed struggle, so there was more, like, trying to advance the struggle at the time? DP: Well, at that time, that was the motors -- the strategy to create consciousness was political military acts, armed struggle. I mean, what people have to understand is that, because United States is an urban society, there is no “armed struggle” as people see it on the news or as it happens in, you know, in Iraq, or Afghanistan, it’s not those types of actions, they were acts to erase consciousness so that the targets were not our people, were government agencies that were responsible [00:24:00] for many actions against our people and the colonialization of the Puerto Rican nation, and major corporations. JJ: Oh, so what you were doing this was to -- when you say erase consciousness, you’re trying to open people’s eyes...? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: No, don Pedro Albizu Campos always said, “If they don’t listen to you, then throw -- use a bullet and throw it to that.” I mean, it’s a metaphor. But it’s also a -- it was a modus operandi of conscious raising. Are there regrets? Absolutely there are regrets. Some people -- fortunately, no one lost their lives. There was an action that occurred, but that’s not for me to discuss. The FBI wants to say that we killed them, they aren’t able to prove that any one of us, 11 of -- members of my comrade that were arrested together, that we were part of those actions, that the organization took responsibility is another thing. And what was I charged with -- 15 �JJ: Right (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) that it was not proven, but [00:25:00] it was not proven. DP: It was never proven, no. JJ: It was never proven, okay. DP: And what our position was, we took the positions of Puerto Rican prisoners of war. Why? JJ: Yeah, can you explain that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) different --? DP: Of course. Why do we take the position of prisoners of war? We took the position of prisoner of war because according to international law, and the Geneva Convention, if your country is part of a declared or nondeclared war, and you are captured by the enemy, you have the international right to declare yourself a prisoner of war. So we’re not the only ones that took the position, William Morales took it, don Pedro Albizu Campos, Antonio Corretjer, any Puerto Rican that has fought for the future of our country, they’ve all declared themselves prisoners of war. And that, to us, is a position of honor, because even today people are not aware of this reality of colonialization in Puerto Rico. [00:26:00] You know. People see these new commercials that say, “Puerto Rico does it better,” and do people know that 36,000 people just lost their jobs, that this new -- this governor has tried to privatize our nation? They’re trying to make a Spanish-speaking nation that does speak English, but turning it into a completely bilingual, trying to make English -- they weren’t able to do it 50 years ago, and I guarantee you they’re not gonna be able to take our mother tongue from us, even though our mother tongue is really the Taíno language because 16 �Puerto Ricans are -- Taíno Indians, that’s why our real name is Borique, not Puerto Rico, Puerto Rico was when the white folks came, the US -- oh, we have a visitor! (dog appears) This is my little baby, this is [Toda?], who accompanies me all day long. Right, Toda? Toda? You wanna be on the interview? Huh? Yes? Say hello! No? Okay. Véte. Go ahead, véte mama, give mami a kiss, give mami kiss. (kisses) I love you. Véte, go down. Get down. [00:27:00] Toda, stop stealing -- she’s an actress, see? She’s stealing the -- she’s upstaging me. Okay, so we can continue, no mama, no. Go ahead, véte, no! Get down there. I think it’s cute, you can let her go, it’s human. JJ: [It’s human?]. DP: Yeah. I’m not gonna play with you... See? JJ: (inaudible) DP: Well, getting back to -- I mean, Puerto Rico, people don’t even know the reality of this island. And the United States has done an incredible job, because if you go to any -- first of all, we’re the oldest colony in the Western Hemisphere. Second of all, we don’t control our lives. We have elections that are not run by independent parties, they’re run by the United states government. Everything that is done on this beautiful 35-by-100-foot island is run by the US of A. So let us [00:28:00] not deceive ourselves and think, “Oh, this is a paradise.” This is a paradise invaded. And if you visit Puerto Rico, it is an incredible island because we have all the most beautiful fauna and flora, but the irony is that our people -we don’t even have an agricultural society because why? American industrialization changed what would be done in Puerto Rico. What rules in 17 �Puerto Rico is not what our people can survive with, it’s what the United States can earn money from, because they give us money, believe you me, they take 75 percent more than what they give our nation. And what they give us is a mentality -- that’s what colonialization is. I tell people that I would rather be a slave, because slavery is an overt act. Slaves, slavery, people wore chains, you know you were being abused, you know you were being exploited, it was an overt action, but colonialization [00:29:00] is a psychological burden, it’s a psychological game, it’s a psychological plan, that when you visit Puerto Rico, and you live here, you see it every day. We appear as an abundant society, but we’re not, because we don’t control our lives. Everything that we purchase, we pay 75 percent more than anybody in the United States. You know? People have to understand, yeah, we have Walmarts but you know what, to have Walmart, Sam’s, and all these big stores, we no longer have very few (inaudible) the neighborhood businesses, very few exist. I was just in Manatí yesterday at a meeting, and all the wonderful little stores and neighborhood stores were closed. The stores were empty because there aren’t any small businesses in Puerto Rico, because it’s the major corporations that have come here, and everybody wants to go to Costco, and everybody wants to go to Sam, everybody goes [00:30:00] to Walmart, but la bodega doesn’t -- you can’t buy your stuff at the bodega, it’s three times as much than if you went to Walmart. JJ: And so... So, you feel that if there’s independence, there’d be more bodegas, or --? 18 �DP: Well, I think if our nation was independent -- we have all the resources. We’re a technologically developed nation, we’re bilingual, we have engineers, we have lawyers, we have all the professionalism. What we have to do is to create our own industrial, which we can do with our own money, ’cause we do have Puerto Ricans that have money, we do have -- it was quite clear with the last hurricane, the big hurricane, Puerto Ricans raised [29 or 2.5?] million dollars in less than 24 hours. That tells you something. [29 or 2.5?] millions is not a lot, but it tells you that there is an economic base here, and if we owned our land, and if we had the power of our land, then we could [00:31:00] create our own resources in our land. We could -- the mango trees don’t have to be knocked down, you know, the quenepas, we could sell that, we can make an industry, we can create our own bamboo industry. To be honest, with the thousands of bamboo trees that live in this island. JJ: But what are we gonna do about the age, and the wealth, the Social Security, and the...? DP: Well, you know, we’re not gonna die. You think the United States is gonna [?] people? We’ve learned to survive, and we will survive. And then, first of all, the United States will never make us a state, let’s make it abundantly clear. Why? Because we would have more representation in the United States Senate than any state in the United States of America. Two, we run a different culture. It’s not like our Mexicans that come to the United States. Puerto Ricans have a unique culture, and I say it not because I’m ethnocentric, we have this thread -- I believe it’s a [00:32:00] generic line of resistance that exists in us. We have the 19 �power, we’ve created many, many idols across -- in many aspects of life. In musicians, in theatre, in the sports world, you name it, scientists, we have ’em, historians. So that, that’s something that can be negotiated with USA, plus they owe it to us, you know? We’ve been their slaves, we’ve been their colonialist rules for all these years, so that they owe us all of that money. Whatever they give us. JJ: So you’re saying they owe us the Social Security. DP: Yes, absolutely! You work here, you don’t get federal -- you know, you don’t pay federal funds, so that means that your Social Security is diminished, you know. And for everything the United States has taken from us, there’s nothing wrong in getting what’s due to you. There’s restoration, restitution, absolutely. JJ: Okay. I’ll take a break. DP: No, fine. JJ: If you wanna go on a break. DP: Let’s go break. JJ: Okay. DP: I think it’s [00:33:00] important that people understand what is happening today in Puerto Rico, and when I mentioned earlier about the question of the governor, the governor of Puerto Rico today, he supports statehood. Not only does he support statehood, but he’s a Republican. Furthermore, it is, because of who you are one understands how people get elected, and people don’t gonna get elected by the popular vote, let’s be honest, it’s money involved, and that’s what makes politics run. ’Cause to run a campaign, you don’t do it with Scotch tape 20 �and bubblegum, you do it with money. Luis Fortuño was supported by the right -ultra-white aspect of the Bush people, so that’s why he became the governor of Puerto Rico and all he has given us is, he’s attempted to privatize all of our institutions. A month and a half ago, he closed down the only Puerto RicanAfrican museum of our African culture. The essence of our culture. Supposedly, [00:34:00] all the incredible pieces that were there, and I’ve visited that place numerous of times, before I went to prison and after, now I’ve been in freedom 12 years, that’s an insult to the Puerto Rican population, it’s an insult to our culture. So that’s what colonialism is all about, colonialism is about taking what is ours and turning it into something that it doesn’t exist. Puerto Ricans will never assimilate. I’ve always said that the beauty of our people, and I said it again, I’m not ethnocentric, but you go anywhere in the world, and you see a person that looks like a Spanish-speaking person, and they’re Puerto Rican, and you ask them, “What are you?” “Boricua, Puerto Rican.” That has to come from an essence -- I believe in genetic deposition. In genetic deposition, we have an essence of ourselves that even though we’ve been colonized by Spain and the United States, we have always maintained our essence as a people. The reason why people become members of [00:35:00] parties is because we become family. If my mother belonged to the popular party, well then I’m that. If my mother was a statehooder -- I live in Loíza, which is the only municipality that has the essence of our Puerto Rican-African culture. This is a whole-statehood municipality. Why? Because it’s the most marginal municipality in all of the 72 that are here outside of Vieques and Culebra. So what the statehood party did 21 �was, they separated Loíza from Canóvanas and made it a new municipality, even though Loíza originally extended all the way to what today is Isla Verde, from Isla Verde all the way to Fajardo. That was in the olden days when the Borinquén was our nation. And in the transcript of Americanization, this incredible town doesn’t even have an archive about their history. The only thing people know about Loíza out there is that [00:36:00] people make masks out of coconuts and we dance [bomba y plena?] and we have a festival which we haven’t had in many years at the level that we used to have. So, that shows you what colonialization does, colonialization takes away, and it’s a psychological war. It is an undeclared war because if you make your people dependent on what you’re giving them, and here most of the people live on food stamps and welfare, and they have the plan of the government -- and I’m on the plan of the government because of my situation right now financially. But the truth of the matter is people here don’t even know that they’re -- the beauty of their essence, of what Mother Africa has given us Puerto Ricans, so that’s a real example of colonialism is about. And if you visit here, you don’t think that poor people are living here, because the government has done that. They create this facade. I call it ro-“looking at a nation through rose-colored [00:37:00] glasses”. Okay, where do we go now? (laughs) JJ: Okay, well, you were mentioning -- you’ve mentioned a couple of times about jail. And I just wanted to -- ’cause you spent about how many years? DP: Well I was incarcerated almost 20 years. I was arrested April 4th, 1980, and I was released September 10th, 1999. 22 �JJ: So you got arrested where? DP: In Evanston, Illinois. JJ: In Evanston, Illinois, and then you were taken where? DP: To the state prison, well, we went to the county jails. And then we went -- after that we had a state and federal trial. When the state trial finished, then we were sent -- I went to Dwight, the women’s penitentiary -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [the trial?] -- what are some of the highlights of the trial [after?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Well, I’m writing my book, so I’m, you know -- I’ll tell you a little bit, so then I’ll make them -- people have to go out and buy my book, by next year it should be out. I’m only joking. The trial was very simple. We took a position -- a prisoner of war, which I said before, prisoner of war, none of us, 11 of us, were [00:38:00] arrested on that day. We took that international law position of prisoner of war, that means you do not recognize the jurisdiction of the United States courts. So none of us -- we had legal advisors, but we did not participate. Each of us made an opening and closing statement during our trial. And we were sentenced -- at the state level I was sentenced to 8 years and at the federal prison level I was sentenced to 62 years. So I was sentenced to 68 years. JJ: Did you do any time at the state (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DP: I did three and a half years at the state women’s penitentiary, absolutely. I was maximum security. JJ: Where were you at? 23 �DP: I was in Dwight, Illinois. The only female prison, I believe, in the state of Illinois, yeah. And when we were there -- I heard now that it’s much bigger, and of course, they keep arresting women of color, it doesn’t matter. It’s interesting, the many young white women in prison, at the state prison. And I have to tell you, at the state prison the conditions were a lot better, to me, [00:39:00] than in the feds, because I believe the officers were really interesting human beings. Most of them were, like, farm workers that owned the farms before, and they didn’t have -- so then the only option they had was to be correctional officers. So they treated us with a lot of dignity, with a lot of human kindness, you know? You always find those that wanna be officers, absolutely. But while I was in prison, I’ll tell you an example. The day I left, I owed 82 hours of what they call confinement, of what is [publishing?] confinement, which could be, like, I couldn’t go to recreation, not to be put in segregation, of course I’d been put in segregation many times in the 20 years. And my most biggest offense in the state was, “insolence,” and I used to tell them, the [warden?], “How could I be insolent of something that I’m not a part of?” You know? But -- JJ: I’m not clear what that is. What is that? DP: Insolent? When one is insolent, is that [00:40:00] you’re going against the rules, against the person that’s responsible to give you orders, and [like above?] my position was when I went to prison. JJ: This is where you were put in segregation, or? 24 �DP: Oh, I was put in segregation for other reasons, but this is why I got what they call a “shot”. It’s a disciplinary action, then you have to go before a lieutenant, and the officers, and then they give you punishment. JJ: (inaudible) DP: Yeah. I’ve been to the hole for very other reasons, many other things. Again, it’s significant, but they needed to do it, and they did it. Fine, no problem. JJ: So you come in and they give you the shot, did you said? DP: No no. When I came in, I told the officer, that I’m just -- they wanted my respect, they’d then have to respect me. My name was Dylcia Pagán, and their name was Officer So-and-so, and that’s how we addressed each other. The reason I went to segregation was they assigned me to the kitchen, I have a displaced hip, and I tried to inform them [00:41:00] that I have a medical disorder, and I couldn’t be picking up 60-pound trays, and nobody wanted to listen to me. So, my lawyers came to visit, and I said, “Tuesday morning, I end on my 90 days as my kitchen duty, I’m going to the hole,” as they call it. Segregation, we would call it - [the three words?], the hole. JJ: So you made a decision. DP: I made a decision. And at two o’clock in the -- now when you worked in the kitchen, you worked 24 hours, and you had one day off, of course you had to, you were dead, you know, exhausted. And I had a lot of incidents with my supervisors because I would never -- my parents told me that I didn’t have to take commands from anybody. That if you could talk to people, you could work things out. But I had all these, all the white women that were the kitchen 25 �supervisors, and they insisted, and insisted, I’m pushing your bullet, you know, pushing the horn. And one of the things I can’t stand is to be told what to do, especially by some -- an ignorant human being. So that was where the [00:42:00] insolence came in, either with the staff or the officers. And then, when I went to segregation, the first time was because I refused to work, and it was like four o’clock, 3:30, and they wanted -- “Miss Pagán,” they brought all the lieutenants into my unit, I said, “I’m not changing my position. I finished my 90 days, I’m going to the hole, I’m not going to work anymore.” So they put me in the hole, guess what? In less than 24 hours, a doctor arrived. And I said, “Oh my goodness, did you just get a beeper?” (laughter) “After 90 days?” ’Cause all of a sudden, then I got a note that said that I couldn’t do heavy-duty. But it took 90 days and my own defiance to be able to get my rights. Many things happened in the state, but then I got transferred to the feds. I got transferred, and almost near Christmas, it was a snow storm, and I decided I was gonna go to breakfast to say goodbye to my fellow inmates. And they said, “But you can’t,” I said, “I’m going to breakfast.” And since [00:43:00] I was a guard escort, I had to go at -all my three and a half years, all of us, were guard escort, that meant we couldn’t move anywhere within the premises without a guard with us. And when it was snowing -JJ: All of the people that you got arrested with? DP: My female co-defendants that were with me, yes. JJ: Okay. Everyone had an escort? 26 �DP: We had a badge that we wore. So if we went from one unit to a visiting room, the officer had to come in the car. And then when it was snow, the car would come, but we had to walk in the snow to go to the visiting room. So they always try to break your spirit, and I’ve always said that when you’re in p-- JJ: You’re already in jail, and, you're already been sentenced, and... DP: I was already sentenced, absolutely. JJ: And they’re still trying to break your spirit (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Oh, of course, that’s part of the game. I said, it’s a psychological game, and they try to do it by any means necessary, of course they will. But like I said, when you know who you are, and you know why you’re there, they can’t break your spirit. ’Cause I had my principles, [00:44:00] and I knew who I was, and I knew what I represented. And also in the state prison, I offered work with the women in prison, you know? I had an aerobic class that even the warden came to my class, half of the staff came to my aerobic class. I taught art. You know? One has to survive, and I wasn’t gonna survive staying in a room, so I created programming. You know? So that I could be creative and my mind could be functioning, and I was at the same time making a contribution to the women that I was living with. So then in ’83 I went to the federal custody. To get there was a fiasco, I mean, I had a car with -- JJ: I [recognize?], yeah (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Sure. 27 �JJ: I didn’t mean to interrupt (inaudible). So you’re in jail now, you’re going through this demoralization campaign, that they’re trying to do to you. [00:45:00] What are you thinking, are you thinking you’ll ever get out of jail, or? DP: Oh, I always knew I’d be in freedom. I worked on the campaign for the release of a Puerto Rican nationalist, and I said, being raised with an essence of being Puerto Rican, I knew my struggle, I knew the history of our people, and I knew I wasn’t gonna die in jail, absolutely not. Did I like being in jail? Absolutely not. I was separated from my child, my child was 13 months. I chose that my child be not raised in Puerto Rico or New York because of FBI reoccurrence, because we had an example of North American comrades, they took -- the FBI sequestered their children, and to this day, this is almost 30-some-odd years ago, maybe 40, some of the kids that were sequestered by the FBI are still under severe psychological therapy. So I made a decision that my son was raised out of the country, so I didn’t hear from my son for 10 years. What I do know is that Juan Antonio Corretjer [00:46:00] made the arrangement for my son to be raised in Chihuahua, México, and he was raised by the Gomez Gomez family who was just here a couple of weeks ago, I’m honored. And I would say probably it was my parents’ spirit because I’ve been alone, my father died when I was 15, my mother when I was 20, so I’ve been alone since I was 20 years of age. And I really believe it’s their guiding spirit, and of course don Juan Antonio Corretjer’s efforts that brought my son to this incredible revolutionary family that has raised my son. And he’s still part of their lives, absolutely. JJ: And were you not in communication with him at all, or? 28 �DP: Until he was 10 years old. I didn’t see him till he was 10 years old. JJ: You didn’t see him till he was 10 (inaudible) DP: No. I didn’t know of him, where he was, till he was 10. For Christmas, he showed up in the federal prison, yes. And then he’s been in my life ever since, he’s here in Puerto Rico, he married -- JJ: What’s his name? DP: My son’s biological name, birth name, is Guillermo Morales Pagán. At the age of 27 he [00:47:00] asked -- well, he informed me that he wanted to take on his Mexican name, and I had no problems with that. I call him -- I always tell him, he’s a Mexi-Rican. JJ: Mexi-Rican? DP: He’s a Mexi-Rican, absolutely. And he’s very proud of his Mexican heritage, and he should be, because that’s what he was raised. And he also knows his Puerto Rican and he was definitely involved totally in our campaign, ’cause once he became part of my life, at 15 he came to live in San Francisco so he could visit me, and that’s where the documentary, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it, titled the Double Life of Ernesto Gomez Gomez that aired on PBS, it’s won -- JJ: I have heard of it, actually. DP: It’s won about 14 awards nationally, internationally, was done. And basically, it’s his idea, it’s Gary Weimberg and Cathy Ryan, who were basically his padrinos because they ended up adopting him as his godchild, and as a matter of fact he just told me he’s gonna go see Cathy and Gary in June because it’s Gary’s 50th [00:48:00] birthday, so that’s a blessing. You know, when you can’t be with your 29 �child and you find people that can substitute that love and support, that’s -- my son has an extended family, he does. I’m very blessed in that area, absolutely. JJ: So then you’re at a state prison, you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: At the state prison, and then in 1983 -- JJ: So you completed your state time, or? DP: No. In the state, you do day for day, and of course they wanted to get rid of us anyway, they were dying to get rid of us, you know, “Let’s transfer them outta here,” so that I ended up doing three and a half years of my state -- federal -- JJ: Were you creating problems in there, or? DP: No, no, I was creating programs for them. But anytime our rights were, in any way, abolished or threatened -- JJ: The attorneys would come and -- DP: The attorneys and demonst-- we’ve had many demonstrations in front of that prison. JJ: And these attorneys were [from where?]? DP: Well, from the People’s Law Office of Chicago, our lead attorney, Jan Susler was there, Michael -- at that time it was Michael Deutsch and Jan [00:49:00] Susler. JJ: You [were?] familiar with -- DP: Excuse me? JJ: When we took over McCormick Seminary, the first 25,000 dollars were (inaudible) [law?]. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Really? That’s wonderful, they’re incredible people, that’s the whole thing. JJ: The Young Lords helped to create the law. 30 �DP: Wonderful. No, and, the People’s Law Office is a phenomenon, you know. The people -- the offices -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the lawyers definitely got credit. (laughs) They’re the ones that did the work, but -- DP: Well -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: In our case, they didn’t do any work, because they were just there to represent us, but they were there to support us 20 years, and that’s work. JJ: In your case because of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [trial?]? DP: Exactly. We did not recognize the jurisdictions of the United States courts, so we only did opening, as I said before, and closing statements, but we always had legal representation, and they always visited us, and every prison I was at, everyone said, “My God, your lawyers walk in, and it’s like you all hug and kiss,” and I said, “But they’re a family!” We don’t have a regular client-lawyer relationship, we’re family, and that’s the difference. [00:50:00] You know? Absolutely, yes. JJ: Okay, so you’re in the -- DP: So then I went to federal prison. In ’84, the [Bureau Prison Society?]’s doing what they call -- define as a robin round. A robin round is when they -- it’s a psychological study, so they take you all to different facilities and they don’t tell you when they’re gonna move you. So they took me -- I was at 6 different prisons and 20 different holding places for a year and seven months. I defined myself as the FALN ambassador, ’cause no matter where they went, I fought for 31 �the prisoners, I created programming, and I was Dylcia, who I’ve always been. You know? My role was to create programming, to service the inmates, and that’s what I’ve done. You know? And I’m glad I did. I have a young woman who’s doing her doctorate in California on my life, and an interesting [00:51:00] story is, six years ago I got an email from this gentleman named Enrique Alvarez, and he said, “I don’t know if you remember me, but I was your officer. I worked,” you know, “I was your officer, and you changed my life. The day after you were released, I took your advice, I left the BOP, I have a master’s in counseling, and I’m coming to Puerto Rico. I’d be honored for you to meet my wife and my daughter.” Till this day, he’s my dear friend, and if you visit my website, you will hear his testimony in the establishing of my foundation, the Dylcia Pagán Foundation. So anybody that wants to read that story, and do visit my website, W-W-W dot Dylcia, D-Y-L-C-I-A P-A-G-A-N, dot com. JJ: (inaudible). (laughs) DP: It has my poetries there, you can see some of my artwork. And you can read about the projects that I’m working on. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [link that to them, that’d be great?]. DP: Surely. And right now, well -- 20 years in prison, what didn’t [00:52:00] I do? I had a Puerto Rican dinner every year for [ages?], create -- you know, I got the inmates to cook and got them to pay for the food that was necessary to make it a Puerto Rican meal. I did every cultural activity for the Black inmates, the Native Americans, their powwows -- JJ: This is in the --? 32 �DP: In the federal prison, yeah. JJ: In the federal prison, okay. DP: Yeah. I taught aerobics -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [Día de Los Reyes?] -- DP: Of course. [Día de Los Reyes?], I had it every year, 20 years, I did a big dinner for all the prisoners, absolutely. Yes. First one was a [piñón?], and it’s not easy to make a piñón for, like, 860 people but we did it. I organized working with inmates, the children’s center, where we took care of the kids and visitors of the inmates. I did children’s day twice a year, and I was able to acquire 60 staff members to come un-uniformed to work, and we did security for that day when the children were allowed to come to the prison, my last five years I did a [00:53:00] 19-category art exhibit of all the artwork of the prisoners, with a gift shop. I’ll tell you a story. The Native American women did this incredible -- they still do, I’m sure they’re still incarcerated, some of them, they might be still incarcerated. They do incredible beadwork. And then a lot of the North American women did beadwork. So I had just a category for the Native American women. And our Native American sisters are very humble, very humble. One of the sisters came up to me at the exhibit, she said “Ms. Dylcia,” I said, “What?” “My [roseta of Kokopelli?] is gone.” And I said, “Yeah, I know.” She said, “Where did it go?” I said, “This is one of my teachers from the holistic - one of the facilitators. She bought your Kokopelli.” And she looked at me and she said, “I didn’t put a price on it,” I said, “But I did.” I said, “So next week, you’ll have 150 dollars.” And she started to cry, and of course I had to cry, because 33 �she had never been [00:54:00] able to speak to her children, so that, to me, that’s a gift. And to watch the women stand before their work and say, “I won this prize. I am worth -- I’m not a criminal, I’m worth, because I can do things, I’m a creative being.” There’s a lot of pleasure, and it’s not even pleasure, it’s just a feeling of happiness that one experiences when you see women that can stand behind their work and say, “This is mine, I earned this.” You know? And the holistic healing program was phenomenal. We had a weekend of about 15 different workshops, for a whole weekend, 110 women were allowed to participate in this incredible extravaganza. I taught aerobics, I taught handformed clay, block printing -JJ: So you’re teaching (inaudible) DP: I had a theatre company, yes. JJ: I know, but how many [00:55:00] people were -- DP: In my aerobic class? Oh, I had over 200, 300 women, absolutely. Matter of fact, I went to California, my first trip after nine years of freedom, and I was able to have lunch with five of my -- Black -- I hate that -- I don’t like the term “Afro Americans,” my Black sisters, and we had a hell of a day, because it was hysterical, ’cause they were all in my exercise class and they all stood up and they said, “Bend your knees, D!” So it was an excellent experience, because what happens is we believe that people that are in prison are these animals, and they’re not. I have shared rooms with incredible women, I’ve rubbed shoulders with brilliant writers, poets, you know, women who unfortunately, some have lost their children because the system doesn’t provide those kind of internal social 34 �services for our inmates, especially the women, you know. There are many women from all of [00:56:00] Latin America, I met a whole group of sisters from Africa, and was able to negotiate that the BOP give them clothes, because they had no family in this country. So I think, to me, it was a worthy experience, not that I liked being in prison 20 years. Like the saying says, “When you get lemons, make lemonade.” I tried to make lemonade. Did I have difficult time? Absolutely. Did I miss my child? Absolutely. Did I miss my freedom? Yes. But I was on the phone, I knew what everybody was producing, what everybody was doing, I used to talk to [assemblyman José Rivera at least?] once a month, you know, so I was -- to the moment of what was happening outside the world, but I lived inside, and I didn’t live in a fantasy world, like, “Oh, I’m not in prison,” no. I didn’t have a map, a calendar and mark the days, no, but I knew that I would be in freedom, and that whatever day I did inside, I was doing it for my nation, I wasn’t there [00:57:00] serving the United States government, I was serving my nation. JJ: Okay, so you mentioned that there were some pleasurable moments [in there?], and also -- but you said some of these sad -- what were the sad moments? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Oh, there were many. I think it’s once you can’t see your child, you know, that was 10 years of difficulty, it was heartbreaking. But in order to heal, I created a children’s center, so that I was able to service the children of my fellow inmates. Carmen Valentín, who was from Chicago, became comadres. I couldn’t see my son, so her son Antonio, we had privileges to visit together. So Antonio was my 35 �child, I worked with -- we made all the decisions of Antonio’s life for those 10 years until my son arrived, you know? He’s still in my life, he’s my godson. Just like my son is in Carmen’s life, and Carina, Oscar López who’s now 31 years, that’s her grandfather. Carmen’s granddaughter’s grandfather. [00:58:00] Yeah. Oscar López, who’s in prison, my co-defendant. And -JJ: What is going on with Oscar (inaudible)? DP: Well, with Oscar, what’s happening is Oscar went to the parole board on his birthday, January, and the parole board basically told him to come back and give him 15 more years. So -- JJ: Give him -- DP: Yeah. Oscar could’ve been home in 2009 but he refused the clemency, because he felt that it didn’t include everybody else that was arrested, and that was his choice. He did a choice of integrity, and that has to be honored, so what we’re doing now is we’re launching a national and international campaign demanding his release. Hopefully -- JJ: And how does that campaign work, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) or? DP: Well, we have -- his artwork has traveled all over the world right now, matter of fact we’re gonna have a march -- a walkathon, this coming Sunday, in honor of Oscar, ’cause Oscar loves to walk. Matter of fact, he did for Vieques, he did a whole [00:59:00] protest march for Vieques and he had inmates that marched with him, and we marched here, we did a walkathon with Oscar, for Vieques, to get the US Navy out of Vieques. Oscar has become an incredible artist, he paints beautifully, so we have -- his artwork has traveled all over, we have -- all 36 �the universities, I was honored to say that I took -- when Carlos was still inside, Carlos was just released last year. We did the exhibit of their work, “Place Without Space,” I forget -- yeah I think it is. We took it to New York and I’m honored to say that I put it together with Taller Boricua and Julia de Burgos Center. We had over 400 people at the opening. So that’s [what you?] -whenever I speak, I can’t talk about who I am if I don’t talk about Oscar, and I don’t talk about Leonard, ’cause it’s not just Oscar, I mean, Puerto Rican, we have Leonard Peltier, we have our Cuban Five, we have many new African comrades that are still in prison. Many have died [01:00:00] inside. So I think people need to understand that they’re not just Puerto Rican political prisoners, we have Albelino and Norberto Gonzalez Claudio that is now in prison, so it’s Oscar who’s done 31, but Albelino and Norberto are inside also. The struggle continues, but we can’t forget that our people are inside, ’cause the one day you give the enemy is part of your life. But when you give it with integrity and dignity, that’s the difference -- when we were -- I think what happened -- people wouldn’t understand my position. The women would say, “You know, you’re so smart, Ms. Pagán,” and the Black sisters would say, “Don’t ask Ms. Pagán nothing. ’Cause she’s gonna stop you and give you a course in Black history.” But when the documentary about my son and I aired on PBS, everyone -- we had the count changed so that the women could see it, it was a struggle but I [01:01:00] got them to approve it. People were astound. And that’s why I’m a visual artist, because I think you can talk, but until you see the reality of what my son was going through and the reality of our struggle and you see, I mean, the visuals of 37 �the Navy in Vieques, of the real conditions of Puerto Rico, the questions of the sterilization of our women, you know, and you see the reality and you hear people’s voices and people give the testimony about the reality of Puerto Rico, then people’s eyes open, and they say, “Wow, now I understand.” So I think that -- that aired July 30th, we were released September 10th. We had 10 days to choose the conditions or not, we ended up deciding to sign, because there was a big meeting of our people here in Puerto Rico, our leadership in the United States, and they asked us to sign, and so we did. So I’ve been in [01:02:00] freedom, September 10th, 1999, till today. It’s been incredible. You know. Our people received us from all parties in open arms, our people have supported me in many ways. My life is difficult because I’m an independent filmmaker, I’m older now, nobody is gonna give me a job in television so I create my own projects independently. But I’m in freedom. I don’t have to worry about what time they lock me up. If I wanna have a little glass of wine, I do. If I wanna go dance to salsa dances, I do. I wanna visit my friends -- also when we came out we were on parole for six years, so we couldn’t see each other. We were able to -- if we bumped into each other, we could talk for 15, 10 minutes. I got privileged one time -- Carmen was able to spend Christmas with me, one year. JJ: Did you (inaudible)? DP: Yes, absolutely, yes. So my life was curfewed, because I was only allowed to travel three times a year, and I had a lot of [01:03:00] invitations for speaking engagement, but they wouldn’t approve it. JJ: So you did 20 years and [then?] plus another 6 -- 38 �DP: Plus another 6, exactly, yeah. JJ: And that’s what everybody -- other people did the same thing -- DP: Oh yes, absolutely, yeah. JJ: But now you can travel anywhere, or? DP: Oh yes, after 6 years of freedom, so it was ’99, ’99 and 6, 2003, I believe, right? Nine... Eh, around there. They dropped our parole, I’ve been able to go -- I spoke at a conference in Madrid, (inaudible) Madrid and then spent a week and a half with my niece that was living in Spain, I was able to go to Venezuela, I was in Cuba for nine days and had an incredible nine days of experience. I wasn’t able to visit the comandante Fidel because he was ill at that time, but I make masks. I call them “Reinas y cacicas”, why? Because in our culture, Puerto Rican women at the time of our Taíno Indians, we were chieftains of tribes. [01:04:00] We’re the only indigenous country -- nation -- that has women that were heads of tribes. And all the masks in Puerto Rico were faces of men, so I’ve decided, I’ve come out with a new series called “Reinas y casicas” -- “queens and casicas, and chieftains”. And I made him one, I made him his spiritual guide, I made him and I know he received it, I gave it to [Alarcón?] and then, [nobody’s besting, you know, the?] Secretary General of the Parliament of Cuba. And it was a wonderful experience to visit Cuba, to see the Cuban people. They live with dignity and pride, yes, they have food. They may not have all the cars, and God damn in Puerto Rico we have so many cars, like, every time you go out there’s a traffic jam, am I correct, you know? JJ: Mm-hmm. So you were pretty well-received there, did you -- 39 �DP: Oh, I was received by the government, I went with Mickey Melendez from the Young Lords, his wife. Matter of fact, [Cynthia?] and Mickey got [01:05:00] married two Novembers ago, in Cuba, at the Puerto Rican house there. And we went with Joe Perez who’s from the Lords in New York, his wife, and we stayed at the protocol house, so, I mean, we had our own escort. It was talked about -VIP, that was VIP treatment. And then our car was there every morning at seven o’clock to make sure that we went to our trips. So I was able to visit the AIDS center, it was phenomenal, phenomenal. There is not a separate island, it’s just a huge piece of land, where the people that have AIDS, they’ve been rejected in their communities, they can stay there and work and they grow the land. I went to the film school, I gave a whole -- contributed all of my pieces and stuff from my television series that I worked on, (inaudible) we haven’t talked about, which maybe I should talk a little bit about my experience in that. I went to the film school, I went to visit the social workers, we went to the Pedro Albizu Campos high school -- JJ: [01:06:00] In Cuba. DP: In Cuba, yes. And I am the official madrina of the school, that is from kindergarten to eighth grade. And they all knew who I was, and they sang the Borinqueña. It was unbelievable! Beautiful. And the principal is 21 years old, is that incredible? Brilliant, you know? And the people, we went to a concert. We went to visit Che Guevara’s tomb. But with VIP -- I mean, I got to see every aspect of the museum, they got us private viewing of his tomb, what an experience. And then they showed us the film and we were able to sit in the 40 �reception room and sign the book, behind this incredible -- it’s about the size of my wall behind me, of Che. It was an incredible experience, yes. And just to see the people because, you know, I did a lot of television, I did a lot of interviews, so of course they passed the news every morning, Fidel speaks, and I got to speak, so the car passed [01:07:00] by the people waiting for the public buses, they’d wave, you know, we’d say hello, no matter where we went. We were treated with, you know, just dignity and support, and just to see a nation that everybody criticizes because they don’t know what it is, but what an incredible place Cuba is. People dress like we do, believe you me, they know how to jam, because they do jam, baby. That’s what I didn’t get to do, and I told our international head of protocol, I said, “You know, the next time I have to go out and jam, (inaudible) because I love to dance,” you know? But it was incredible, I’ll probably be in Venezuela in July, we have a conference I have to go. And as the secretary of women affairs for the nationalist party I’ll be representing the Puerto Rican Nationalist Party. Of Puerto Rico. JJ: Now you mentioned (inaudible)...? DP: Okay, oh, right, that I left my shows, yes. How did I become a TV producer, you’re probably wondering? Oh, okay. Can we take a break? I need to wet my [01:08:00] mouth. JJ: Okay, so then you said you couldn’t attend any funerals but then were gonna go into -- DP: Okay, well one of the things that you had asked me before, were we -- as political prisoners, yes, we were treated differently. An example, one of our family 41 �members -- none of us were ever able to attend any family funerals. Our visiting lists were -- I have two dear friends, Frank Espada, who’s Juan Espada’s father JJ: I know Frank, yeah. DP: That’s my dear friend. And Humberto Cintrón, who was the executive producer of the first television series [so?] I’ll tell you the stories that I worked on. Took a year and a half to get them on my visiting list. Why? Because each one of us had an FBI agent that when we put the list in, that list went to the agent, and when they felt like it, then they would approve it. So, but contrary to all of that, my friends from New York came to visit me. The best thing was that we had a group of young students who visited me [01:09:00] every Sunday for 10 years. Today they’re all professionals, they’re all part of my life, as a matter of fact Ray Pavón and Francis Free Ramos got married, and I married them in [Tuincol?], I did the ceremony, and Carmen and I both did -- but I did the wedding vows, but we did the ceremony together, and then I did the wedding. I married them. They have two incredible children. Ray is a hip hop political performer, he’s now a house dad and Francis is a social worker and they’re incredible. So [Faulisha?] is married, they share a house, Jason has a little boy, he’s married. Khalil and his brother, Khalil’s brother Eli is a person who’s done the best pieces of documentaries on hip hop, he’s just finishing a piece on hip hop in India. Uh, Khalil just got married, so he’s become like his ambassador, and they work together, so that -- it’s incredible. [01:10:00] I had a son, and then I adopted more daughters and sons, and they’re still in my life. They come to Puerto Rico, 42 �they come here. I go to California, I hang out with them, you know? It’s a problem sometimes cause then it’s like, “How many days you gonna stay with me?” “No, D’s gonna stay with me.” “No, I’m gonna D --” So we work it all out so I spend time with all of them, and of course Gary Weimberg and Cathy Ryan, I have to go and spend some time with. They had the courage and valor to do the documentary on our lives, you know. Okay, so you’re probably wondering, I didn’t tell you how I became a TV producer. Again, it wasn’t a miracle. I was on television as a child, after being an organizer and going to Brooklyn College and starting the Puerto Rican Studies department at Brooklyn, still exists, and the union, the union still doesn’t exist, but -JJ: So you started the Puerto Rican Studies? DP: In Brooklyn College, yes. JJ: (inaudible) DP: Yes. I brought Dr. [Luis Ianes Falcón?] who then became our attorney for our political release, I [01:11:00] brought him to be a professor at Brooklyn College with Alfredo Matilla. Yeah. We started the first -- I initiated, at Brooklyn College, I started the Black Studies department, and then organized -- found the Puerto Ricans who were having [dances?] and then was able to organize the Puerto Rican Alliance which still exists today at Brooklyn College. What happened was, I got approached by a friend that said, Manhattan Sterling wanted to do a Puerto Rican show. So I went to Manhattan Sterling, well, the studio was half of this living room, with one camera, and I created a show called La Voz de la Comunidad. It was a talk show, and we had one camera, this young brother was 43 �at Ithaca University, and he was organizing the first Puerto Rican conference, so we called it “el sancocho”, so that was the first show I ever did. Shortly after that, after the [01:12:00] People’s Church, Geraldo Rivera and I became very good friends. My dear friend Bob de León was the person who got him the scholarship to go to Columbia School of Journalism. One day Geraldo calls me and says, “Look, I need --” You know, he was doing Like It Is with Gil Noble who just passed away, what an incredible man, he gave his life of creating real consciousness in American television. Like It Is, Gil Noble. Geraldo asked me, “Who do you use for the show?” I said, “Why don’t you take -- put Pedro Pietri on the show,” you know? “He’s a poet, he’s satirical, and he’s incredible, he talks about the real Puerto Rican experience with his ‘Puerto Rican Obituary’,” which I’m sure you know, they were always on time, well, he wrote that in my home. So that’s why his book is dedicated to me. Alfredo Matilla did the Spanish translation and the second version -- the second publication was dedicated to me. To me, [01:13:00] that’s an honor. I miss my Pedro, you know, he passed away five and a half years ago. But he lives here all the time, he used to knock down rum bottles after he died, all the time. But anyway, so Pedro went on the show, Pedro comes to my house, like he always used to, always did, Pedro Pietri and Papoleto -JJ: (inaudible) DP: Oh, baby, they’d get drunk, and we had a rule. I didn’t want them anywhere running the streets, so if you didn’t have money, you call me and I pay for a cab. Collect calls, mind you, so -- with collect call, I knew who it was from, “Hey, D!” 44 �But he came straight from ABC, and he sat in my living room, and I said “What,” and I said, “Have yous a shot of Jack Daniels and what is it?” And he said, “Well I talked to Charles Watson, who’s the executive producer, and he’s looking for a cohost of Like It Is for Geraldo,” because Geraldo was gonna cohost with Gil Noble and it was Melba Moore. Melba Moore -- was it [01:14:00] Melba Moore? Melba Moore was the actress. I know her last name was Moore. Melba Tolliver, Melba Tolliver and Gil and then Geraldo, so I told him to call you, “Well I had to go to the hospital to have minor, minor surgery done.” So I called Watson, I said, “Listen.” Pedro -- he called me and I said, “Look, I just came from the hospital. And I had -- I’m gonna be at home for about a week and a half.” I said, “Would you like to come to my apartment and you’ll do the interview here, is that cool? And I’ll make you a Puerto Rican meal.” We ended up becoming dear friends, he hired me on board, and he had told me, he says, “I’ve never felt -- this is an interview where I’m the one that’s nervous.” I said, “But why?” He says, “Because I’ve never met a woman like you.” I say, “Well I don’t think I’m that incredible.” But he was just such a sweet man, with a lot of integrity. So I came onboard, and Geraldo had just won the Peabody Award for his piece on the mental health unit, so that’s like the Oscars [01:15:00] of television, and he refused to be on camera with me. So then I got hired as the associate producer of Like It Is, so then I worked with Gil, and ended up -- the funniest thing is that a friend -JJ: [But?] this was before you went to jail, right, or --? DP: No, honey. Before I went to jail, hello, this is 1968! 45 �JJ: So why didn’t he want to --? DP: Because I think he felt that I had much more camera experience than he did. JJ: Oh, I see. DP: Remember, I was on television since I was five years old. I’m not afraid of a camera, as you can see. I know how to talk to the camera, work with the camera, and be with the camera, so. So he did me a favor because I learned how to do production, so I worked for Like It Is for a while, and then Charles came up to me and was very honest, he said, “Dylcia, we love you, come on board.” I did the piece on Adam Clayton Powell, who his son is a very dear friend of mine, Adam Clayton Powell Jr., who’s now an elected official in East Harlem. The fourth, [01:16:00] ’cause he’s Adam Powell IV. But, he said, “The show is gonna go totally Black. And we made a commitment that our staff would be all --” I said, “I have no problems with that.” That’s said and done, but I learned the ropes of what does -- how do networks work, you know, working in what you call... Make-believe television with the little cameras, like, running around with the old video camera that had a big box. This is real, real television. So, we realized, there was a group called, I forget their title but they had just sued the networks demanding Black programming. And we have -- well, we always had a group over in East Harlem that were activists, artists, some of them were elected officials, but they were our people, and then we always were independentistas, we fought for the release of the Puerto Rican nationalists, so we created a group called the Puerto Rican Education Media -- [01:17:00] Education and Action Council. And what we decided to do was sue the 46 �networks. So we got college students and for six months, we studied television. All the networks, every day. What was the image of the Puerto Rican? Well, we concluded that it was not a positive image. First of all, there was no Puerto Rican programming. There was no positive image, all they had was the crime reports and that was it. So, we sued the networks, and at that time we had friends that had a cute nightclub in East Harlem, it was like the hot scene. It was like Studio 54 but for East Harlem. Christopher’s. What we did is we brought the presidents of the networks to negotiate at Christopher’s. Puerto Rican meal, we hit the whole works, Puerto Ricans, that’s how we are, you know that. They were very impressed. And then we had -- it was a two-story facility, so a lot of the big bands would come and play. So that night we invited them to bring their wives after the event ’cause we had a dinner for them, so then the wives would call me, [01:18:00] “Listen is Tom or John there? Can I come over to hang out? Oh, marvelous!” We didn’t do those negotiations so that we could hang out with the wives of the presidents of the networks, we did it to get a program! Nothing happened, everything was left in the [billions?]. All right. One afternoon, we had a meeting and we remembered -- we found out that WNET was having its telethon. So we said, “This is it.” We organized a march in front of WNET’s office, which is on 58th Street right off by Columbus Circle, and then we went to the studio on 55th Street and took over the telethon. In walked in José Rivera, the assemblyman, he was then a union organizer, Jorge Soto, who’s in the other life, painter, myself, Piri Thomas, Frank Espada, Humberto Cintrón. We took over the network, we took over the telethon, and guess what? They didn’t know 47 �what else to do, John Jay Iselin [01:19:00] gave us 1.5 million to start a new series, so we called it “Realidades”. And I really believe that they said, “These Puerto Ricans don’t know what they’re doing,” oh, little did they know. We came to Puerto Rico and got our own -- Puerto Rico had a DGA car, which is Director’s Guild of America, ’cause that’s required. Went to New York City, Pablo Cabrera had done the best entertainment programs and culture here in Puerto Rico. And we hire -- everybody had to be either Latino or Black. And we created our crew, we paid them what everybody pays, and we did the local series, and the 17 shows, of which I produced 11, I went for an interview and ended up being the first Puerto Rican television producer. From there I went to... Where did I go from there? I went to a newspaper, I became the editor of the first bilingual newspaper in East -- in New York City called “El Tiempo”. I got bored doing the columns, I created a gossip column called [01:20:00] Bochinche and had a ball. Herman Badillo was running for mayor, and the nationalists, we were in the middle of the campaign so I intertwined both things. Miriam Colón called me -JJ: [You mean?] Herman [Padillo?] with the [nationalists?]? DP: No, Herman Badillo. JJ: Herman Badillo. DP: Herman, Herman, yeah. Not no nationalist, Herman Badillo was running for mayor of the city of New York. JJ: And you said you interconnected them? DP: I interconnected in my column, Bochinche, Casa. JJ: Okay, Casa. 48 �DP: The campaign for the release of the five nationalists and Herman running for mayor. Two opposite ends. But how do you get consciousness in people? JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: But nobody wanted to be -- no one, Herman, and he just wrote this horrible book three years ago. JJ: I actually (inaudible) helped him get his security [when?] Harold Washington. DP: Oh, really? JJ: He was coming, he was up, [in?] Harold Washington. Sounds like you don’t know (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: No. The book he published two years ago about Puerto Ricans -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [working for?] Harold Washington at that time. (laughs) DP: I don’t ca-- I mean, I’ve known everybody. I’m a good friend of many elected officials, (inaudible). [01:21:00] I know Congressman Serrano very well, I know Nydia Velázquez very well, her, I have a lot of respect, and [Joe?], because they all took, and Gutierrez, they supported our campaign. José Rivera, incredible man. I mean, he’s been -- what didn’t he do for Vieques? He got arrested in Vieques, he’s done films, you know. That’s what I call an elected official, that’s, you know, that’s a big difference than when you write a book that criticizes your people. He could not even speak Spanish, but that’s another interview we’ll do. We’ll do a whole story on all my -- overview of political officials. So, I told the mess-- I sent the message, I said, “Listen, guys, we’re doing a fundraiser in Manhattan Center, and I got 19 bands to perform, from Ray Barretto, to 49 �(inaudible),” you name it, they performed for me to raise money. I got Jerry Masucci from Fania Records to give me a thousand LPs that I auctioned off. I didn’t do it. Julio Pabón, who runs Latino Sports, he belonged to a political organization, they [01:22:00] assigned it to me, he tells everybody, “She made me get on stage and auction albums! That’s how I learned how to do public speaking,” he tells everyone. Well, at ten o’clock, I told him, “At ten o’clock I want --” Herman, that night, was having a fundraiser for his campaign. I said, “At ten o’clock I want everybody at Manhattan Center.” 10:30, guess what, all the Puerto Rican leaders walked in their tuxedos, everybody shelled out their money, and we took 63 buses for the campaign for the release of our five nationalists. That’s how you do journalism, that’s how you create consciousness. You never forget what the importance of our struggle is about. I don’t say it because I think I’m so bad, I think people have to, you know, young people are listening to this. If you’re studying -- whatever you’re studying, you wanna do, do it with integrity, but don’t forget who you are, where you came from. Remember that where you come from, you owe them, and you have to go back and help build, and we have to [01:23:00] learn as Puerto Ricans to build our own institutions. I think that’s the downfall of our nation, that we’ve forgotten that we need to build our own institutions so that we don’t depend on anyone and we can do that. You know? So that’s how my career started, from there I went to Boston to do Infinity Factory, which is a series on math phobia, and I came here. JJ: Math phobia, what is that? DP: Math phobia is when children have problems learning math. 50 �JJ: Oh, math (inaudible) DP: So what we did was we took everyday activities, and we worked with mathematicians from MIT, and the head mathematician was the gentleman who had created the atomic clock, and they would give us the strands and we would do the creative and ethnic... Reality. Plus we had a history section, so I created -- I did all the Puerto Rican history. And then in doing the segments, ’cause we had a segment that was shot upstate New York, and there was a [01:24:00] young woman that was a little girl, she was a little girl, who ended up -- who used to say, who ended up doing fame. She was the little girl in the show. And then the Mexican groups had a group in LA. There was no Puerto Rican segments, so I came to Puerto Rico for 27 days to create Puerto Rican segments and I shot here where I live in Loíza, the festival, which at that time was an extravaganza. Well what I did was, I integrated our master mathsman, because as an artist he uses the concept, a mathematical strand called estimation, but I integrated the festival, so he taught the children of the town how to make the math so they could participate in the fiesta, and then I was able to integrate the whole fiesta. So they got to see the whole aspect within a cultural term. I talked about don Pedro, because when don Pedro Albizu Campos spoke, the Nationalist Party had to figure out how many people would be there, how many flyers did they have, that’s estimation. You know, and measurement, [01:25:00] you have to measure the amount of paper that you have to use and how many pieces you -- how much money you spend. So we had to integrate mathematical strands, but I integrated them within a historical Puerto Rican perspective. Came back to New York and I 51 �worked at CBS, show called “Channel 2 the People”. (inaudible) concert with Felipe Luciano that worked at the same show and ended up having the same phone extension, because when we talked from prison, I told him, I said, “Brother, you know what? I’m calling my own phone number.” And he started laughing. So I did “Channel 2 the People”, and I have to say that my career in the public world, in television, since I’ve worked for all the networks and public television, I can say with a lot of integrity that I’ve never exploited my people, I never did stories that were negative about my people, on the contrary. And before I was arrested, [01:26:00] I had the first film and photography school in East Harlem. I had a school in East Harlem, I had gotten half a million dollars from the Department of Labor, and my idea was to create our own film school. Take that initial money and that, get our own people in the business to become members of the board and help us raise money independently so that we could have our own school. Unfortunately, William Morales was my partner at the time and he got arrested and I was subpoenaed to the grand jury and I was two months pregnant. So I spent my nine months of pregnancy under the pretense of going into prison. But I refused to testify, on the grounds that, you know, you don’t support grand juries. You know, you have integrity, you don’t support a grand jury. Plus grand juries have always been used as a witch hunt for the Puerto Rican independence movement. We have a long trajectory of the history of that. If you go to el centro -- “hunter centro dot org”, open up the FBI [01:27:00] files and you’re able to read the whole history, all the FBI files, we have ’em there at the centro files. What happens then? Well, I get a phone call 52 �that the nationalists are being released, and I’m honored to say that in three days I organized a private reception for them and El Museo del Barrio was receiving Lolita Lebrón, Oscar Collazo, Irvin Flores, and Rafael Cancel Miranda. In New York, in El Museo del Barrio which was then ours, now it’s no longer ours because we’ve lost it, it no longer belongs to the Puerto Rican community. I don’t care what anybody tells me, that’s my position because I’m one of the founders of that museum. JJ: Briefly, if you can -- I -- DP: No, I don’t wanna talk about that. Let’s leave it there. Yeah, no. The Museo del Barrio is the Museo del Barrio but it doesn’t belong to our community like it initially was initiated and how it was worked for, many, [01:28:00] many years -four decades ago. But again, sometimes we make concessions and we can’t concede when it comes to our culture and our art, because that’s ours and we have to learn how to control that. Three days after they were released, I went to clandestinity, and I went with my son, and I was arrested a year, some-odd later, April 4th, 1980. JJ: I didn’t hear, you went into where? DP: I went into clandestinity. Somewhere in the world with a different name and my child. My child was five and a half months old. And that’s history, and now I’m in freedom, and I’m working on creating my home into a project called “Casa Loíza”, which will be a place of having workshops of healing and political consciousness, and since I have a beach and a river, it’s a way of remaking a living, and maybe you wanna come and spend a weekend or a week to write, you 53 �can do it here in my house. I have a foundation, you can visit it on my website, [01:29:00] and if anyone wants to make any donations, they’re more than willing to. I mentioned it before so we’ll put it at the end and people can come and visit. I’m working on a documentary for the last eight years called “Women Mujeres [n?]” on the five Puerto Rican nationalist women, which include Blanca Canales, who headed the revolt in Jayuya, 1950. Isabel Rosado, who’s 104 years old and alive and well. Carmen Perez who passed away five years ago. Doris Torresola, who was the youngest member of the party who’s now in the other existence. And of course our Lolita Lebrón. So I need a little bit more money to finish the last segment to make a trailer, it’s a major project, it’s a two-hour version, ’cause you have to honor five incredible women and I’m not doing it in two minutes, I have to tell the real story, so it has music, dance, poetry. And I write my own poetry and I create my mask, and my sculptures. And in July, here in Carolina, Puerto [01:30:00] Rico in [el Museo del Titecure?], I’m part of the association of plastic artists and I’m having an exhibit of my casica and reinas sculptures. And I’m working on my book so hopefully next year, watch out, it’s coming out! It’s called “Seditious [Love?]”. I’m (inaudible) this year. JJ: (inaudible) DP: Yeah. JJ: You were in jail, and then you had a little... I’ve heard you had a lot of time to think, and so one of the things it looks like you’re doing is the film. Still with the film. But I mean, what -- DP: How did I keep myself busy? I told you. 54 �JJ: Not how did you keep yourself busy, but what do you think that the movement should be doing, in terms of -- you mentioned that the struggle continues, what does that mean? DP: Right now. Oh. JJ: What does (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DP: Well, the struggle continues, we have to create -- I think with the assassination of Filiberto Ojeda Rios five and a half years ago, I think the United States government thought [01:31:00] that by assassinating him, that our movement would die, on the contrary. That was the most incredible funeral you’ve ever wanted to attend. It took us five and a half hours from San Juan to Hormigueros, which is an hour and a half, two-hour ride. But why? ’Cause the streets were filled with people. Children in the school courtyards were standing up with their fists up. “FBI assassins!” Old people, young people, even govern-- even the police, as the hearse passed, the police would salute him. That’s to tell you something. I remember, many of my interviews that I did while I was incarcerated, they would ask me, “Do the people support armed struggle?” And I said, “Well, in an island 35 by 100, there’s a man called Filiberto Ojeda Rios who’s been in clandestinity for 23 years, and he’s never been captured.” And I think that’s an example of how our people do support real heroes [01:32:00] and heroines in our nation. I think what has to happen here is that the leaders of our movement, they’re all mostly older people, mostly men, I have to be very critical of that, too. And they have to come down from their little levels of powers, their little towers of power even though they’re not that acclaimed, but anyway. We 55 �have to let the young people take over. We can be their facilitators. We can learn -- we can show them the mistakes we’ve made, how we can grow together, but we need their voices to lead our nation. I think when we begin to do that, and we’ve begun it in a small scale, what now the Nationalist Party is doing, we’re rejuvenating the party because for so many years all the party was doing is bringing flowers to our dead heroes and heroines, that’s not how you build a nation. You build a nation by getting involved in your community, by creating consciousness. Learning about their real history, that’s how our people -- that’s how you gain consciousness [01:33:00] because if you know you come from a fighting element, that you have warrior genes, then you’re gonna learn that you can struggle to make change happen. But until you know that, until you know who your essence is, and where is it you come from, and who are the people that really make up your real history, then you have a base, then you have that foundation that says, “[Oh no?], I’m strong, and yes, we can win.” And I believe it’s happening, but it’s gonna take a lot more work ’cause I also think technology has moved us away from our old organizing techniques. People have gotten kinda lazy with technology. You do not organize people by sending them emails. You’ve gotta go door by door and you have to knock. People -- look in your eyes. When you talk to someone, and you can talk in their eyes, and you see them, it’s that human relationship. You can’t help but feeling what that person is sharing with you. And that’s where I think consciousness [01:34:00] gets built and that connection occurs. So I think that’s what we have to do. JJ: Okay. And any final thoughts? Any more final thoughts? 56 �DP: Final thoughts is that I think, I believe that one way we can... There’s a lot of violence in Puerto Rico today, and it doesn’t come from a nature of who we are, it comes from what we’re surrounded with, it comes from a government that has put together, I mean, I keep criticizing, but I have to. How do you make the former head -- two heads of police are former heads of the FBI, and think that you’re gonna create a relationship with the police department that handles -works humanly with the people? We’ve just witnessed what the police did to our students, who were just demonstrating, and they were badass; kicked, they were beaten, they were bruised, they were put in jail. [01:35:00] We have to create a healing process for our nation, and I’m not talking about a prayer circle, I’m not talking a prayer march. I think it’s about creating a new consciousness of struggle, which talks about our human concerns, which reaches out to people like I said earlier. That’s how we create change, that’s how we create a new society for our people. And our young people need to be on it because a lot of these young people are doing great things, you know? Unfortunately they don’t get the news, because everybody wants to hear about all the murders that occur. Crime doesn’t occur by miracle, it creates by the society -- the conditions that society, those that control the society establish. And that’s what we have to do, we have to do it, we have to create an environment where our kids can learn, and institutions that are ours. We have to get young people to love our Earth, to grow, we can grow our own food, ’cause we’re gonna have to, ’cause stuff is getting too -- [01:36:00] it’s worse in prison, I used to pay 50 cents for a tomato, you know, on the black market, and here it’s almost 75! So we have to learn how 57 �to survive as we did before, and put all that other stuff that -- we get bombarded, you know, with all the technology, all the YouTube and the television and all this stuff. We’ve been bombarded to believe that we can have all these things, but that’s not what makes you happy, what makes you happy is having a quality life. With essence, with integrity, and a spirit of winning. And I think that’s what we have to do. We have to really internalize that we’re a nation of warriors, and that we can win, and that we are fighters, both men and women. And gays, you know, I think it’s wonderful that the president came forward, but that doesn’t change the federal laws, but here in Puerto Rico we’ve moved a bit forward, but we haven’t moved where we should be. We have to make a new awareness of AIDS. [01:37:00] There are no public announcements in Puerto Rico about AIDS, very few, and our kids -- people have AIDS, we’ve had difficulty getting medications, we have difficulty AIDS patients surviving, difficulty getting funding for adequate funding for good programs for our people, and they’re not all young people, we’re finding a major percentile of new AIDS patients that are above 40 and 45 years old. So there’s a reality in our society, and only we can make it heal. And we can heal it with commitment, with dignity, and continuity. Viva Puerto Rico libre. END OF VIDEO AUDIO FILE 58 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4759ee8b13d3e3a7738c7db828cd3c3c.mp4 f9e61a12f1f8b86ffb97f8d1ca38b0de Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Dylcia Noemi Pagán vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Dylcia Pagán nació a padres puertorriqueños en 1946 en Lincoln Hospital en los Bronx de Nueva York y creció en el East Harlem. Se hizo una estrella infantil siendo parte de “Children’s Hour” en NBC. A los 20 años perdió sus padres y se convirtió un activista, trabajando con registraciones de votes y también con la Community Development Agency (CDA) que evalúa programas de pobreza en Nueva York. En 1969, Señora Pagán decidió atender Brookly College donde ayudo a fundir el Puerto Rican Student Union que resulto con la formación de un Departamento de estudias puertorriqueñas que es controlado por los estudiantes (todavía existe hoy). Señora Pagán continuó una carera en la media de comunicación y fue la primera productora puertorriqueña en la ciudad de Nueva York. Trabajo como productora, escritora y cineasta desarrollando documentarias investigas y programas de niños en cada estación mayor de televisión. También trabajo con un editor Ingles para el primer periódico bilingüe en la cuidad, El Tiempo, y también escribió una sección de ese mismo periódico. En 1978 un Gran Jurado dio una citación para que Pagán daría un testifico en conexión con el arresto de su compañero, William Morales. Durante este tiempo estaba tres meses embarazada con su hijo Guillermo y rechazo testificar. En 1979 se escondo con su hijo. La arrestaron en 1980 y la cargaron con sedicioso de conspiración por pelear por la independencia de Puerto Rico y recibió una condona de 63 años encarceladas. Después de una campaña larga en los Estados Unidos, Puerto Rico, e internacional Presidente Bill Clinton le dio el Presidential Conditional Clemency a Pagán y 9 otros, el 10 de Septiembre, 1999. Ahora vive y trabaja en Puerto Rico. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rivera_Dylcia Title A name given to the resource Dylcia Noemi Pagán interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pagán, Dylcia Description An account of the resource Dylcia Pagán was born to Puerto Rican parents in 1946 at Lincoln Hospital in the Bronx, New York City and raised in East Harlem. She became a child star, performing every week on NBC’s “Children’s Hour.” After losing her parents at the age of 20, she became an activist, participating in voter registration drives and working for the Community Development Agency (CDA) evaluating poverty programs throughout the City of New York. In 1969, Ms. Pagán decided to attend Brooklyn College where she co-founded the Puerto Rican Student Union that resulted in the formation of a student-controlled Puerto Rican Studies Department that is still in existence today. She continued a long career in media, becoming the first Puerto Rican woman television producer in New York City. Ms. Pagán has worked as a producer, writer, and filmmaker, developing investigative documentaries and children’s program on nearly every major television network. She also worked as the English editor for the city’s first bilingual daily newspaper, El Tiempo, and authored a popular daily column in that same paper.In 1978, Ms. Pagán was subpoenaed by a Grand Jury to testify in connection with the arrest of her companion, William Morales. At the time, she was three months pregnant with her son, Guillermo, and she refused to testify. Sometime in 1979 she went underground with her son. She was arrested in 1980, charged with seditious conspiracy for fighting for the independence of Puerto Rico, and was sentenced to 63 years in prison. She was released from prison on September 10, 1999 after a long campaign in the United States, Puerto Rico, and internationally pressured President Bill Clinton to give she and nine of her co-defendants a Presidential Conditional Clemency. She lives and works in Puerto Rico. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8689aa8d6a00ecd4e822c93a096508da.pdf 0f90896d9ccd518c4700c7f85e9ba0bd PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carmen Tirado Reyes Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/12/2012 Biography and Description English Carmen Tirado Reyes is married to Marcelo Jiménez, a proud Hacha Vieja, and uncle of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is a well -respected and dedicated housewife who grew up in San Salvador, the barrio of Caguas where the Jiménez family is from and still lives strong. The original Hacha Viejas were her husband’s cousins. In the 1940s they moved to Barrio Mula in Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico, where “Tio Gabriel,” as he was called, had purchased a large farm, hired workers, and raised his many children. When work was slow, those children and workers came to Chicago, settling in La Clark in the late 1940s and early 1950s. Ms. Reyes and Mr. Jiménez came to Chicago over this time as well, later moving to Lakeview by Wrigley Field, Wicker Park, Humboldt Park, and finally to Winchester and North Avenue where they purchase a home and remained for many years. One of Ms. Reyes’s sons became a leader of the Latin Kings. Many of the sons and some daughters of these new immigrants became leaders of local social clubs or gangs, such as the Latin Disciples, the Young Latin Organization (YLO), and Latin Eagles. Ms. Reyes now lives in Puerto Rico where she and Mr. Marcelo Jiménez returned to build their home across from la quebra, or mountain stream, that leads from La Plaza straight up toward the mountain section of Maracal. �Spanish Carmen Tirado Reyes estas casada con Marcelo Jiménez, orgullosa de ser una Hacha Vieja, igual que la tía de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Ella es una esposa dedicado y respetada quien creció en San Salvador, el barrio de Caguas en donde la familia Jiménez sigue viviendo fuerte. Los originales Hacha Viejas eran primos de su esposo. En los 1940s so mudaron al Barrio Mula en Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico, donde “Tío Gabriel” compro una granja en donde contrato unos trabajadores y creo sus hijos. En los 1940s y 1950s, cuando el trabajo se fue los trabajadores y niños se fueron a Chicago, ah La Clark. Señora Reyes y Señor Jiménez se mudaron a Chicago durante este tiempo y luego fueron a Lakeview alado de Wrigly Field, Wicker Park, Humboldt Par y finalmente a Winchester y North Avenue, donde compraron so propia casa. Uno de los hijos de Reyes se hico un líder de los Latin Kings. La mayoría de sus hijos e hijas de nuevos inmigrantes se hicieron líderes de grupos sociales igual que bandas como los Latin Disciples, los Young Latin Organization (YLO), y las Latin Eagles. Señora Reyes ahora está en Puerto Rico donde vive in frente de la quebra con su esposo Marcelo. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d88da7fa27e1e641015f27f4f0b947ee.mp4 6fd81452893dbfe9a0ca4682b5f98b2a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carmen Tirado Reyes vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Carmen Tirado Reyes estas casada con Marcelo Jiménez, orgullosa de ser una Hacha Vieja, igual que la tía de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Ella es una esposa dedicado y respetada quien creció en San Salvador, el barrio de Caguas en donde la familia Jiménez sigue viviendo fuerte. Los originales Hacha Viejas eran primos de su esposo. En los 1940s so mudaron al Barrio Mula en Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico, donde “Tío Gabriel” compro una granja en donde contrato unos trabajadores y creo sus hijos. En los 1940s y 1950s, cuando el trabajo se fue los trabajadores y niños se fueron a Chicago, ah La Clark. Señora Reyes y Señor Jiménez se mudaron a Chicago durante este tiempo y luego fueron a Lakeview alado de Wrigly Field, Wicker Park, Humboldt Par y finalmente a Winchester y North Avenue, donde compraron so propia casa. Uno de los hijos de Reyes se hico un líder de los Latin Kings. La mayoría de sus hijos e hijas de nuevos inmigrantes se hicieron líderes de grupos sociales igual que bandas como los Latin Disciples, los Young Latin Organization (YLO), y las Latin Eagles. Señora Reyes ahora está en Puerto Rico donde vive in frente de la quebra con su esposo Marcelo. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Puertorriqueños--Vida social y costumbres Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Idioma español--Relatos personales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Reyes_Carmen Title A name given to the resource Carmen Tirado Reyes inerview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Reyes, Carmen Description An account of the resource Carmen Tirado Reyes is married to Marcelo Jiménez, a proud Hacha Vieja, and uncle of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. In the 1940s they moved to Barrio Mula in Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico, where “Tio Gabriel,” as he was called, had purchased a large farm, hired workers, and raised his many children. When work was slow, those children and workers came to Chicago, settling in La Clark in the late 1940s and early 1950s. One of Ms. Reyes’s sons became a leader of the Latin Kings. Ms. Reyes now lives in Puerto Rico. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Puerto Ricans--Social life and customs Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Spanish language--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc9010d2340eb32c74a98cd6e1aa512a.pdf 23b3d261a1b325bcad7c48ec257c0e73 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ricardo Rebollar Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/11/2012 Biography and Description Ricardo Rebollar is from one of the first Mexican families to live in Lincoln Park, settling around Sheffield and Clybourn Streets and remaining there more than 30 years. After José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez got into trouble at Newberry Elementary School, in the 6th grade he was taken out by his mother and placed into the Catholic St. Teresa School. Mr. Rebollar was of the few Latinos in the school and in his class and they became very close friends. They would talk long hours before and after school in their homes, and together planned to go into the seminary and then into the priesthood because it was a way they felt they could help their People. Mr. Rebollar recalls those years, as well as how they played in softball teams and other sports. He also describes his girlfriend and how her parents had a difficult time accepting him because of his national origin. He recalls the days that Lincoln Park turned more Puerto Rican and Latino and describes how he felt safe when he walked the area of Lincoln Park because the Young Lords and other groups knew that he and Mr. Jiménez were friends. Mr. Rebollar also went to the McCormick Theological Seminary’s Occupation and because he was a student at St. Vincent DePaul High School he supported the DePaul University take-over by the African American students who were being supported by the Young Lords. �Neither Mr. Rebollar nor Mr. Jiménez ever made it to the priesthood. Mr. Rebollar first became a law enforcement officer and says that, “he was a good sharpshooter.” He then later became a teacher for the Chicago school system and currently teaches science at Joliet West High School in Illinois. Spanish Ricardo Rebollar es hijo de una de las primeras familias Mexicanas que vivieron en Lincoln Park, en las calles de Sheffield y Clybourn, por más que 30 años. Después que José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez se encontró en problemas en Newberry Elemntary School, su mama lo saco de la escuela y lo inscribió en escuela Católica de St. Teresa. Señor Rebollar era uno de los pocos latinos en la escuela y porque estaban en la misma clase se hicieron mejores amigos. Se pasaban los días hablando antes y después de la escuela y querían ir al seminario y luego ordenarse sacerdote porque sentían que era la única forma que podían ayudar su gente. Señor Rebollar recuerda que juagaron juntos en equipos de softbol y otros deportes. También recuerda que los padres de su novia tuvieron más tiempo en aceptarlo por su origen nacional. Y como en esos días podía caminar por las calles de Lincoln Park sin temor porque los Young Lords sabían que era amigo de Jiménez. Señor Rebollar atendió McCormick Theoligal Seminary’s Occupation y la escuela de St. Vincet DePaul High School en donde Afro-Americanos (quien eran apoyados por Young Lords) tomaron la escuela. Señor Rebollar y Señor Jiménez no llegaron a ordenarse. Rebollar primero fue un policía y dice que “era un tirador experto.” Ahora es un maestro en la escuela de Joliet West High en Illinois. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. RICARDO REBOLLAR: Well -So you want me looking this way so you want it looking at me. Yeah, that's good. JJ: And just tell me your name and then your date of birth. RR: Okay. My name is Ricardo Rebollar. Rebollar. It's pronounced I was born on October 29, 1948 in Mexico City, Mexico. JJ: Okay. And okay, so when did you come to the United States? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RR: We came to the United States in the 1952. My dad was already here and he had found work or he had thought he had found work in San Jose, California. actually went to live with my uncle. And that’s when we Yeah. But they found out within about six months that there wasn’t any job to be had but he found there was another opportunity here in Chicago. So we came -- I must’ve -- sort of ’52, ’53 was when we arrived in Chicago. [00:01:00] And we first lived down on Sedgwick right across the street from Cabrini-Green except they were just finishing building it. JJ: Okay. Right by Cabrini-Green. RR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Okay, over by Franklin School, (inaudible). So I went third grade, I went to -- 1 �RR: Yeah. Edward Jenner is where I actually went, yeah. Third Grade. JJ: So this was ’54? RR: Yeah, ’53, ’54. JJ: In 1954. RR: Yeah. Yeah. And actually, we -- there’s a whole lot of spots, but anyhow, we lived there for a short period of time. We had lived in the DePaul area. JJ: Now, when you lived near Cabrini-Green, is that when -- the point they had a lot of Hispanics or Latinos? RR: No, we had none. JJ: There were no -- RR: We were the only ones there that were Hispanics, yeah. Yeah. Everybody there was Italian or -- JJ: They were Italian. They were not African American. RR: -- right in that little area. No, no, there were no Blacks at all in that [00:02:00] area. JJ: Even near Cabrini-Green? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RR: When they started filling up the -- when I -- so the second half of third grade, I remember meeting the first Black kids. In fact, I remember one of the kid’s names. name was Winston. His I thought that was kind of weird but Winston was his name. traded toy soldiers. And he and I got to be buddies. We But about six months later -2 �JJ: So Cabrini-Green was all white at the time, mostly white. RR: The housing, yeah. Not the housing but the -- the houses around there were all white people, yeah. trying to think. Yeah. And then I’m Italian and there was a couple of Germans that I -- we knew but mostly Italians. And then at the end of third grade, half-way through fourth grade, we moved back to the DePaul area. In fact, that’s when we started living at 1808. JJ: So you went to Joiner? Is that what it’s called? School? RR: Jenner. JJ: [00:03:00] Jenner, yeah. RR: Edward Jenner School. JJ: What street was that? RR: Oh God, I don’t know. JJ: But it was Jenner, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RR: Because you’d have to walk through the green. I remember -- yeah. Because the building was between -- yeah. JJ: Oh, by Saint Joseph’s. RR: Yeah, Saint Joseph’s was on one side. In fact, I went to Saint Joseph’s for about six months. JJ: Really? I went there. I went to -- RR: You’re kidding. JJ: I did, (inaudible). RR: It’s Saint Joseph’s and then we lived -- and then by the 3 �end, less than a year, we were back at -- anyway. wound up with 1808. And we And we got there because the lady who knew us there recommended us to Mr. Pistoni. JJ: Nineteen oh-eight did you say? RR: Eighteen oh-eight was the address. JJ: Eighteen oh-eight Sheffield? RR: Yeah. That’s where we moved back in there. And we were there for years and years. JJ: Last time, you were saying, in fact, somebody -- I stopped you. You were saying something about it. A lady or something that lived there? RR: There was a lady who lived at -- in [00:04:00] the apartment building where we’re -- near Cabrini-Green on Sedgwick Street. And she knew we were looking for a new place and she recommended us to a Mr. Pistoni. his name. And he was the owner of the 1808 building and that’s how we got 1808. JJ: I remember And -- So that was on the other side of Lincoln Park that he owns some buildings there so -- RR: Yeah. And he was a real nice, little, old Italian guy. I don’t know if he even spoke English but we wound up staying there. JJ: Was he Italian? RR: Italian, yeah. 4 �JJ: Because we landlords who were Italians so they would have definitely let us. RR: Right. And then the lady next to us, [Castelluccio?]. was Italian and she owned the building. flat. She It was a three- And then the building next to it was a lady. I believe her name was -- is [Schmitz?] or [Schultz?], I don’t remember. And there was like -- and then the next building was [00:05:00] all sorts of Germans. Across the street was a guy who was a fireman and I never did know what he was but he wasn’t Hispanic. In fact, the only Hispanic that we knew in ’54, ’55 was the lady we had originally rented from. And I don’t remember the address but it’s right there at Poe and Sheffield. Or Maud -- it’s Maud is the street and Sheffield and we had originally rented when we first came. see her every so often. And that was neat and we would So I wound up at Saint Teresa’s. And Saint Teresa’s in fourth grade, middle of fourth grade. JJ: So you started -- when you moved here, you were in fourth grade. RR: Yeah. JJ: So you went to Jenner for the first four years? RR: No, actually, I went to what was the name? JJ: You went to Saint Joseph or Teresa’s? [00:06:00] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 5 �RR: No, actually it started out because the first move was onto the Sheffield street. And there, I went first and second grade to -- oh, what was the name of the school? school that’s right there. It’s the I don’t know if you remember it. JJ: By Saint Teresa’s? RR: No, it’s on Sheffield. JJ: Oh -- RR: God. JJ: -- Mulligan, Mulligan, Mulligan. RR: Mulligan, yes. was Mulligan. It’s a big, old ancient building. Yes, [Mrs. Kelly?] was my teacher. That So I went there first and second grade. JJ: So you went there first and second? RR: And then we had a -- we lived for a short time in an apartment building on North and -- JJ: And then you went back to Saint Joseph’s? RR: And then we went to Sedgwick and then from there, we came back. JJ: You came back. So you went to Sedgwick or Sheffield. was where you lived in that area. That That was in the early ’50s, 1953. RR: Yeah, I would say somewhere between ’53 through [00:07:00] about ’57. JJ: So that area was Italian and German you said? 6 �RR: Yeah, right. There was very few Blacks. The Blacks that we knew lived on Clybourn just north of where Clybourn and Sheffield meet. And there was only like one or two families. JJ: That was like one block. That was African American. RR: Yeah, and everything else was basically Baldwin. JJ: I remember people would brag that there was -- that Blacks were moving -- RR: Be into that area. JJ: -- north of North Avenue. Do you remember that or (inaudible)? RR: Oh, well, I knew that there was -- JJ: There was a barber shop there right there. RR: They used to -- well, we were right next to the Bonge’s Tavern that we’d hear that there. JJ: You would hear it? RR: Yeah, but you know, five houses away were the two houses where the Blacks lived. But there were -- I mean, I never understood what their problem [00:08:00] was. Because we lived next to them and they were kids like us. In fact, most of the problem we had were with the Italians. JJ: What kind of problems? RR: Mostly, it’s like -- it was child things. that’s great. Like, “Oh, yeah, They’re having a birthday party.” “Well, 7 �you can’t come.” “What do you mean you can’t come?” And then there was this hemming and hawing. JJ: Hemming so -- RR: And the kids would tell you. He says, “Well, you’re Mexican.” JJ: And they said it just like little kids. RR: Yeah, you can’t come. JJ: Yeah. Even though you had been playing with them a little bit and after a certain point -RR: Yeah. It was mostly the parents. I don’t think the kids were a really big deal. There was a couple of -- I don’t even remember his name. But there were a couple of Italian kids who were pretty nasty. But -- JJ: But it was mostly the parents that were kind of -- RR: Yeah, they were -- they were standoffish. JJ: Because that happened, too, at my graduation part that -- RR: Yeah. JJ: -- but anyway. [00:09:00] But I was messing up then. I was already in the gang (laughs) so I could blame it on the gang. RR: Oh yeah, blame it on the gang. Yeah, so -- JJ: But it was -- but you’re saying it was the parents that -- RR: Mostly it was the parents. Most of the -- and it was strange because I’m hanging out with kids who were [Glaw?] 8 �and [Camarada?] and there’s a lot of -- And we were fine. The kids I really -- I mean, I don’t remember if you knew John. I mean, [John Glaw?] was the guy who played baseball with me all the time. So when we went to play with you, it was [Landini?], Glaw, and me that mostly were playing. And so when we met you out in the park -JJ: In which park? RR: Lincoln Park. Because we’d walk from there all the way to Lincoln Park to play at the North Avenue playfields. And if you get there early in the morning, you could [00:10:00] save it and play. JJ: And that’s what we used to do. So is that when we met the first time or I don’t even remember. RR: Oh, the first time -- JJ: I don’t remember any -- RR: I really don’t remember when the first time I met you. mean, I was familiar with you from school. I We used to do the debates and stuff and I remember that. JJ: For the school? RR: Yeah, at school. What was it? Do you remember [Sister Hermann Joseph?]? JJ: Yes, I do. RR: Yeah. JJ: Seventh? It -- what grade was she? She was seventh. Okay. [Hermann Muller?] so okay. And sixth was 9 �[Sister Annie?]. RR: Sister Annie I had, yeah. JJ: …was sixth and then Sister Anne was eighth. RR: Yeah. JJ: Oh, now I know -- I got all three of them. RR: And you weren’t there in fifth because that was [Miss Bunster?]. JJ: I just was -- Yeah. Wait, no, I was in the sixth, seventh, and eighth. And so Sister Annie and Sister Hermann Joseph and Sister (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -RR: Yeah. Sister Hermann Joseph worked our asses -- oops. JJ: (laughs) RR: We used to work because she always thought we could do better than what we were actually doing. So we would get A’s and then we -- she’d say, “No, you don’t deserve an A.” [00:11:00] Then yeah, so it’s probably about the point at which I remember first -- because we used to play ball. Where was it? JJ: We were first playing ball out -- So when we saw each other in Lincoln Park, you already knew me. RR: Yeah, by that time, I already knew you. JJ: So you saw me in the (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah. We had met and it must’ve been at -- it must’ve been in seventh grade. I don’t remember you from sixth at all. 10 �JJ: I think it was seventh grade. RR: So seventh grade is when we started making contact and -- JJ: So who was playing actually ball over there? I just joined your team? RR: Well, what we’d do is get together and see how many guys we could get there and we’d play. We’d set up a game. JJ: Was it softball or hardball or --? RR: Hardball. JJ: Right, right. RR: That was for sissies -- JJ: (laughs) RR: -- because we’d do fast-pitching hardball. We didn’t play softball. get the -- what was it? And we used to There was a ceramics place on Clybourne. JJ: What was it? [00:12:00] Ceramic? Okay. RR: And they would let us play in their parking lot. we’d go, there’d be 10, 20 of us going over there. And so And then we’d set up and we could play and no one would bother us. JJ: What about catcher’s mitts and --? RR: Are you kidding? JJ: You’d scrounge them? RR: Yeah. We’d scrounge those. Or -- My first one was scrounged from I don’t know, a second-hand shop or something. Or somebody didn’t want 11 �theirs -JJ: (inaudible) equipment? RR: Yeah, sort of. balls. We had gloves and we had bats and we had And sometimes, we didn’t have balls. We’d go looking for -- sometimes we could -- And in fact, we played more often than not. We would -- we were just playing. We would play with tennis balls and we could get those almost for free because they had the tennis courts up on Fullerton and Sheffield. And you’d get the old tennis balls that nobody wanted and you’d get ’em either dirt cheap or for free. And [00:13:00] then we’d do fast-pitching and then who’s got a hard ball. JJ: So you were making the thing in the walls or --? RR: Yeah, that’s how we -- yeah. JJ: I remember that. RR: And that’s how we’d practice all the time. And then summertime came and then, we’d have games and say, “Hey, you know, this neighborhood’s got a team and this neighborhood’s --” JJ: Right, they were neighborhood teams -- RR: Yeah, right. JJ: -- because I remember I was a -- that first team I was in was the Leprechauns. RR: Oh, God. 12 �JJ: And it was an Italian manager but the name of the team was Leprechauns. So I guess because there were a lot of Irish in (inaudible) there. RR: Yeah, the big organizer was us was a guy by the name of [Glenn Messa?]. He was Cuban. JJ: Oh, he was a Cuban. RR: Yeah, he was probably- -- and I don’t know when I met Glenn, either. Probably about sixth grade. JJ: Really? RR: Yeah. JJ: He was from Lincoln Park there? RR: Yeah, he was right there. We all lived -- you know they had an apartment building up on Maud and Sheffield? where we lived. That’s And I remember his sister’s name was [00:14:00] [Tootsie?] and I said, “Where did you get a name like that?” That was her -- that was -- she had another name but she always went by Tootsie. And Glenn would say, “Hey, this -- two blocks down, they want to play us. So get Glaw, get --” so we’d get all the guys we needed. [Sulaski?] and all the other guys. Sulaski, that’s right. And we would go and, “Where are we -- where are we meeting them?” And we’d meet them -- one of the places we used to play was on the corner of Racine and Belden. And I think it was -- we called it Os- -- I don’t think it was Oscar 13 �Mayer. JJ: I don’t know -- RR: It was that -- JJ: -- if they had Oscar Mayer, yeah. RR: Yeah, they had a field there. JJ: Racine and Belden, still up there? RR: Yeah. And we’d go up there because it was grass and it was a real field. JJ: I was afraid to go up there. RR: Oh yeah. There was a -- Because once you crossed Armitage, you were running into some people who didn’t like Hispanics, who didn’t like Blacks. JJ: Right, right, right. RR: Yeah. And then once you went even further north, you were [00:15:00] running into [Chuchi’s?] group, whoever they were. “What are you doing in the neighborhood?” “I don’t know, going to play ball.” (laughter) And then we got to walking Saturday mornings. Sometimes we’d walk and sometimes during the week all the way down Lincoln Park past the old Natural History Museum. JJ: By Armitage (inaudible)? RR: Yeah, Armitage, yeah. JJ: You’d just walk. RR: And then you’d just turn a little bit south and you were at 14 �the ball fields. like four fields. And if you got there first, there was And if you got there first, you could hold it until the rest of the guys got and then you could play. JJ: As you walked through that neighborhood, how -- what relations did you see? RR: Oh, God. Early on, there was a -- oh, it was a beer place that it had shut down. that area. And there was a lot of Germans in And that’s down by Larabee. Larabee and -- yeah, about Larabee [00:16:00] and what street would that be? JJ: Yeah. Just south of Armitage. The only reason I’m saying it is I kind of remember or maybe you can let me know -RR: It’s just north of Saint Michael’s. JJ: Right, it was more like segregated or something. RR: Oh, yeah, all the -- yeah. JJ: Am I -- (laughs) am I just -- RR: No, you’re not imagining that. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RR: Oh yeah. JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: Oh yeah, it was segregated. Oh, good God. You know, you’d go out with a young lady who happens to be Polish. Well, she lives in a Polish neighborhood -15 �JJ: In a Polish block. RR: -- all Polish people block. JJ: So there were two or three blocks that were Polish? RR: Yeah. People, “What are you doing here? Polish.” JJ: “Okay.” You’re not “Get moving, get moving.” So this was the neighborhood of Lincoln Park, the community. RR: Yeah. JJ: And that was divided by ethnic groups. RR: Right. If you went further east along -- let’s see, what street is that? I can’t remember the street. one [Feimer’s?] was on. But it’s the There was a lot of Germans there for a while and they [00:17:00] started moving out. But north of that, if you went one block north of Wisconsin? JJ: Okay, Wisconsin? RR: Yeah. Between Halsted and it would be about Bissell Street. Or Dayton, right in that area. A bunch of Italians. JJ: Okay. So north of Wisconsin between Halsted and Bissell? RR: Italian -- yeah, heavy Italian. And then back here is the Germans -JJ: So Wisconsin to Armitage, Halsted to Bissell was Italian. RR: Yeah, it was a heavy Italian. JJ: And we’re talking about what year was it? 16 �RR: Oh, we’re talking the years we were in grade school so it would be 1959 through about 1963. JJ: So ’59 to ’63, that was the Italian section. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: Because that didn’t even run up to by [Roma’s?] because We’d go there and get Italian food some -- Roma’s was over -RR: Oh yeah. Well, Roma’s was a totally different animal. JJ: It was a totally different animal. Why was that? Roma’s was on Webster and Sheffield. RR: Yeah because -- Webster -- yeah, [00:18:00] Webster and Sheffield. JJ: So what do you mean it was a different animal? RR: Those were different people. JJ: A breed of Italian? RR: Yeah, it was a different breed of -- they were really hostile, I thought. JJ: Hostile? RR: Hostile, yeah. I mean -- Yeah. Because the Landinis and those people, we went -- [Paul Landini?] went to my school. JJ: And [Monastero?] was at -- RR: Monastero -- JJ: They were friendly with you guys -- RR: Yeah, we all got along. JJ: Of Armitage, yeah. But once you got north of -- 17 �RR: Yeah. JJ: Or Dickens, really. RR: Yeah, Dickens, right. You’re right. The only place that was really safe was what, the old bakery that we used to be on Sheffield just north of Dickens. JJ: Just north of Dickens? Oh, yeah, right -- RR: Yeah, we’d go there, pick up our stuff and get out. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), yeah. RR: Yeah. JJ: Yeah. So that was in the city. So you used to go there and pick a [brick?], too? RR: Yeah, absolutely. I had -- JJ: Just north of Dickens on Sheffield. RR: Yeah. On the west side of the street. Yeah. JJ: Okay. So you said you’d go, you’d walk in and then leave? RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: So what do you mean it wasn’t safe? That was -- You didn’t -- you didn’t feel safe? RR: Well, [00:19:00] there was lots of times you didn’t feel safe. In my own neighborhood, there was times when we were younger, a lot of the older Italian kids would pick on you, you know? And after a while, you kind of earned your spot. Which is like, “Hey, I’m not here to do anything bad. I’m just living here and I don’t mess with you. You don’t mess 18 �with me.” JJ: So there was like a sprinkling of Spanish people like if neither -- because you didn’t really live there but they didn’t really want you there. RR: Want you -- they didn’t want us there, no. JJ: I’m not putting words in your mouth. RR: No, no. That’s a good way of saying no, they didn’t really want us there. I think -- JJ: And you were actually afraid to go to this bakery. RR: You were nervous. You always watched what was around you and who was around. JJ: And how old were you then? RR: Oh God. How old were you then? I can remember that from the time I was sixth, seventh grade. When I got older, you got bigger and you got physically so people didn’t -- and you knew more people. But the [00:20:00] big area I stayed away from was the Roma’s area. There was a girl that I wanted to date that was over on Kenmore and Webster. “What are you doing here? our neighborhood.” And it was like, You got to get the hell out of You know, it’s, like, “Hey.” that point, I was already in high school. And at So it was -- yeah, there was -- it wasn’t all the time but it was often enough to make you stay alert as to who was around you and what the hell they were doing. Because you got followed a 19 �couple of times and it was threatening. A couple of times, we got -- there was a -JJ: And then they had a gang I remember or something and --? RR: There was a group of people there. I didn’t know that it was a gang but apparently there was one there. JJ: But the name of the restaurant was called Roma’s. RR: Yeah, Roma’s, yeah. JJ: So that was kind of nationalistic, right? RR: Oh yeah, that whole area. JJ: (laughs) For the Italians? RR: Except right across the street was [Kelly’s Bar?] so there Roma’s? was [00:21:00] an Irish enclave somewhere in there. JJ: Right, right. RR: That was -- JJ: So right across from Roma’s was Kelly’s. RR: Yeah, Kelly’s was right at the -- JJ: And it was playing actually down the street, there was a hillbilly bar. RR: Oh. JJ: [The Oasis?]. It was called The Oasis on that corner of Houston and Webster. RR: Oh yeah. Okay. JJ: Do you remember that place? RR: Yeah, I do. Darn, I’d forgotten about it. Yeah. 20 �JJ: So this is -- you’re in the same -- you’re in the same -- RR: Now, the most problem I had in that whole neighborhood was with a hillbilly kid. JJ: Oh, it was? RR: Yeah, it was. hillbilly kid. The worst problem I ever had was with a He always caught me just south of Armitage near -- on Sheffield several times. A couple times, I got slugged and finally, I decided to fight back. point, I said, “This is it. And at some was kind of like an outlier. This has got to quit.” But he with two, three other guys. I didn’t see him hanging out He was trying to establish a little turf area [00:22:00] of his own. JJ: But they would select people. I remember -- RR: Oh, hell yeah. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). I had a problem with them just, “What are you doing here?” And “Bla,” and just -RR: Oh, no. sure. They would grab you and sometimes toss you. Yeah, Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) RR: It wasn’t always that terrible. I mean, because we knew -- you know, you’re talking Monastero Landini, you know, a lot of times, that saved us from hassles. But like I said, too -21 �JJ: How would you describe the neighborhood? softball teams? I mean, they had I mean, hardball teams and -- RR: Yeah. JJ: Was it a tight-knit neighborhood? Were the people normal? Was it pretty stable or unstable? RR: I thought it was pretty stable at the time but if I look back at it, I’d say, “Gee, that’s an unstable neighborhood,” because you -- a lot of people transitioning in and out. Lot of people in their -- JJ: Who would transition there? RR: Oh, I’ll give you an example. Next door, we would have a hillbilly family [00:23:00] living there for two, three months to a year and then they would move out. another family would move in. And then They were working in the -- a lot of the stuff that was along Clybourn. And when they weren’t needed anymore, they went looking some other place for a job. JJ: Because Clybourn was where they had the factories. RR: All the factories, yeah. JJ: So people were moving in because of the factories. RR: Yeah. So you had the boilermakers, you had the -- what do you call it? The dye makers, you had the frame factory, you had the -- Siemens was down a little bit further. had the porcelain place. You There’s all sorts of places up 22 �there. But those started shutting down and as they began to shut down -JJ: What year did they shut down? RR: Oh, God. school. Probably by -- towards the junior year of high So it’d have been about 1960- [00:24:00] -- oh, ’65, ’66. You could already see a change starting to happen. JJ: Factories are shutting down (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah. A lot of the people started moving out. I started seeing more Hispanics then. JJ: So why do you think they were moving out? RR: Mostly economic reasons for the people that I knew. Some of the people who were long time there were I think basically saying, “Ooh, this is a changing neighborhood. Got to get out.” JJ: Changing neighborhood because -- RR: Yeah, they were white people who were moving out because Blacks and the Hispanics were moving in. JJ: And that’s why they were moving out? RR: Oh yeah, for sure. JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: No. JJ: The first is economic. RR: So for the people that I hung out with, it was economic. 23 �For the people who were long-time residents, they saw this as the neighborhood’s going to hell so we got to get out of there. JJ: You had been there for a while so you knew they were longtime residents. RR: Yeah. JJ: And now, these are long-time residents that are moving. RR: They’re moving out. JJ: The Italians and Germans and everything. RR: They’re all moving out, yeah. JJ: They’re moving out. RR: [00:25:00] Because what’s -- the first ones to moves out were probably -- let’s see. ’64. It would’ve been about ’63, That German area moved out. Right about that time, there was -JJ: The whole German community. RR: Yeah, the whole -- just about the whole German community disappeared. JJ: Where were they at and what were the German -- RR: They were the ones down on Dayton and just south of Armitage. JJ: Just south of Armitage? RR: Yeah. JJ: Now, is that where all the Italians were? 24 �RR: The Italians were on the north part of that. were on the south. The Germans That disappeared; the Italians stayed on. JJ: Okay. So the Italians were in the north closer to Armitage -- RR: Right. JJ: -- and the Germans were -- RR: Further back. JJ: -- closer to Willow Street? RR: Yeah, Willow. JJ: So in the same area, just south of the Italians. RR: And we started getting a lot of [00:26:00] Blacks coming up Yeah. along that corridor. JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah, that area. JJ: Where it turns -- RR: So as that came up, these guys -- because I knew a couple of guys there. west. They moved out to -- they moved way out Some of them moved out to the suburbs. JJ: So you’re saying there, you could see like a line? RR: Yeah, the line’s shifting. JJ: Like the line shifting from one ethnic group to another ethnic group. RR: Yeah, yeah. There were Blacks there. I don’t want to say 25 �gentry but they were. Because when I worked at Feimer’s, we would have -- even in -- well, that would’ve been sixth grade. We had Black people, hard-working Black people, who lived in that area who came in who I knew all the way through the time I started college. And they were good people and they lived somewhere in that area. And they would complain. “Oh my God, the neighborhood’s changing. It’s no longer --” JJ: Who was complaining? RR: The Black. JJ: The (inaudible) -- RR: I remember this Black lady complaining. JJ: We got [00:27:00] Mexicans and Puerto Ricans (inaudible). (laughter) RR: Yeah. No, we -- the Blacks, they were complaining about some of the Blacks. JJ: Oh, some other Blacks. RR: Yeah. JJ: Oh, okay. RR: Well, it was strange because it, like I said, to me I saw They said, “They don’t know how to behave.” That’s kind of a shame to hear that from them. it as stable. JJ: But they were worried, they were worried. As a stigma? RR: Yeah, and then you’d see the changes coming. And as the changes came, people started moving out and people didn’t 26 �take care of their places as much. And people who had been there a long time were complaining. JJ: I was like, “Oh.” But this was not an urban renewal program. This is just people just moving in. RR: No. Just people moving in. JJ: One group moving in -- RR: Yeah. JJ: -- and this had to do with migration after the -- RR: Migrations, yeah. JJ: Because now, you’ve got all these Spanish people coming in Job opportunities. -RR: Oh yeah. JJ: -- out of nowhere. RR: Oh, well, a lot of them were coming from Mexico and from other places. And where are they going to go? [00:28:00] Puerto Ricans were moving in. In fact, the Puerto Ricans tended to move -- do you remember Wisconsin Street? JJ: Right. RR: Wisconsin? Okay. So there was a whole -- there was an apartment building there on Wisconsin and Sheffield. And you had a lot of -JJ: Oh, on Wisconsin and Sheffield? RR: Yeah, right there. And you had Puerto Ricans because we knew some of them there. Most of the Mexicans were moving 27 �in -JJ: Where was the Mexican section? Where were they? RR: The Mexican section was more down between Maud and Willow on Sheffield. JJ: On Sheffield right in there. RR: Yeah. JJ: That was the only Mexican section? RR: Yeah. JJ: But there was a little section. RR: Yeah, there was a little section. JJ: So between -- RR: It was -- several apartment buildings were completely full. They didn’t -- we didn’t get a whole lot of other -- Yeah. JJ: Okay. And this was between Maud and what? RR: Maud and Willow. So you’ve got Clybourne and then Sheffield goes up, Willow cuts in here, Maud. So it’s about a block and a half, two blocks. JJ: And actually, that’s where you live. RR: On the other [00:29:00] side. JJ: Oh, on the other side. RR: Yeah. JJ: So you were living in -- RR: Yeah, just a little bit south. JJ: -- the Mexicans (inaudible). I didn’t know that. I mean, 28 �I had a -RR: I didn’t either until my mom was telling me. JJ: (inaudible) told that to us. RR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Of course, to me, everybody was a Puerto Rican but (laughs) -- RR: Well, you were a -- you were just north of -- you lived just north of -- JJ: I’m just kidding. RR: -- Armitage in that apartment place. JJ: Right. RR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: So we had planning meetings (inaudible). We had been on Dayton Street near Willow before that. JJ: Dayton near Willow. Okay. JJ: And then we finally made it up to Armitage. RR: So you know that -- what the tavern there on the corner of Willow and Bissell was a tavern? JJ: Yeah, there was a tavern up there. RR: We used to go there all the time and bowl. JJ: Okay. RR: Because they’d charge us nothing, you know? And as long as -- and the German kid and I used to do that all the time. And then after a while, we were banned. 29 �JJ: You were banned from going in there? RR: Yeah. And part of it, I guess, was because [00:30:00] we weren’t of age to drink and we shouldn’t have been in the place. But for years, I mean years, we used to -- Saturdays or whenever we could get the money together, we’d go and bowl. One of the kids that I knew was on Dayton. In fact, it was Dayton and Willow. His name was Traum, [Helmut Traum?]. JJ: Dayton and Willow, there was like a little grocery store there. And we were afraid, talking about being afraid of going to the bread place. We were afraid to go into that grocery store because there was an Italian gang, an Irish and Italian gang -RR: In there. JJ: -- either Irish or Italian. father got pushed around. But I remember I think my They were -- I really don’t remember them having a gang fight with the -- they used to have the (inaudible) made out of tin. So they were using it as a shield and throwing -RR: Sticks and -- JJ: -- throwing glass [00:31:00] and sticks. And I remember they had -- I remember one guy saying, “I’m glad I’m white,” because he had glass in his eye. RR: God. 30 �JJ: And I was just a little kid seeing it. RR: I remember stuff like that particularly -- JJ: That was on Dayton (inaudible) -- RR: And that drifted further north, that sort of thing. Because I know in that area south of DePaul itself, in the alleys, there was a couple of times where there was fights exactly like that. We came in after one and it was a mess. Yeah. JJ: By DePaul? RR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: So that was a -- so after the school or --? RR: This was a -- I think it was like a -- JJ: Are you talking about (inaudible) or --? RR: Yeah. JJ: So there was little gangs up there? RR: Yeah. JJ: But these were Irish? RR: Irish, Italian as far as I knew. Belden, south of Belden and -- Italian? Because you know, again, I didn’t like going up in that area anyway. The only time I do was to go up to the library. JJ: To go to the library. RR: Yeah, up on Fullerton and Sheffield. JJ: Right. RR: And it was like -- again, it was like hurry, hurry through [00:32:00] Yeah. 31 �these two neighborhoods so I can get to mine. could get hassled. Because you “Where are you going?” JJ: So I mean how had we met? RR: Oh, this was from fifth grade all the way through eighth grade. JJ: By the time I was in -- So you’re in Saint Teresa’s school, a Catholic school, and you got to go to the library. You’re not thinking about -- you’re not a gang member. RR: No. JJ: You’re just going to school. RR: Yeah. JJ: But you can’t go to school because of these gangs? RR: Well, you can get hassled. JJ: But it’s not just gangs because these are gangs based on your -- RR: Ethnicity, yeah. JJ: Is that the way the gangs were? RR: Yeah, pretty much so. JJ: So they (inaudible) ethnicity in a gang? RR: Yeah, just about. ethnicity. Or that area. But mostly, it was Because you’re talking about the hillbillies and you’re talking about the Irish, you’re talking about the Italians. JJ: So I mean, we grew up in a neighborhood where we -32 �everybody -- there was a distinction between [00:33:00] ethnicity. RR: Oh yeah. Yeah, there was. JJ: That’s what I meant by segregated or -- RR: To me, it was segregated in - besides the way you just explained it - it was also segregated because there are whole blocks -- JJ: But segregated is not about race -- RR: Well, yeah. JJ: -- when you think about segregation. But this was ethnicity. RR: Ethnicity, right. Because if you went over by Sacred Heart on Augusta near Western, that four square blocks was all Polish and I got chased out of there a couple of times. JJ: What were you doing there? RR: I was dating a chick. JJ: (laughs) RR: We were -- in the ’60s, we were beginning -- it’s okay, you know? You can date somebody who’s not your same ethnicity and -JJ: So you’re saying the city was like that, too, (inaudible) - RR: Oh, the city was absolutely. JJ: The city was ethnically divided. 33 �RR: I’m trying to remember who it was. It was on Wood on North Avenue roughly and we were visiting somebody. This lady comes out and looks at us. She’s like, [00:34:00] “You’re a good-looking Greek kid.” And I -- at that point, I’m smart enough to know, “Let her talk. shut.” Keep your mouth It turns out we were in -- at the edge of a Greek neighborhood or that square block. yeah, well, you’ll be safe here.” I’m not?” And it’s like, “Oh, I’m going, “Oh, you mean (laughs) It was that sort of thing because you got -- if we wanted stuff that was Hispanic, we would go down to 12th Street. Because -- JJ: Twelfth Street? RR: Yeah, 12th Street, Saint Francis. JJ: Oh, Saint Francis. RR: Oh, absolutely. JJ: Why did you go all the way down there? RR: Because no one knew what cilantro was. Yeah. Oh, you remember Saint Francis. That’s -- and -- And then my ma wanted it for some of the food she made so every so often, we would go down there and we would take the Halsted bus all the way down. And then do masa for tortillas or whatever ma wanted to make or and then we’d go. And that’s when you’d wander a little farther [00:35:00] south to our Maxwell Street. JJ: Right. 34 �RR: And that was -- JJ: Because that was a Mexican area. This is -- and you’re talking about Taylor Street and -RR: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh Taylor, you got to watch out. Because you go West Taylor -JJ: Taylor, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RR: Oh we -- we didn’t even go. JJ: The (inaudible) was the name of the gang (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah. JJ: Taylor Street groups, Taylor Street culture was the name of the gang. We dated girls from there. I knew that because that was -- I was researching gangs then. (laughs) RR: Oh, God. That’s one place we didn’t go into. JJ: (inaudible) town but you’re saying there on 12th Street was Mexicans. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: Because in fact, that was one of the only places where they had Spanish mass. RR: Mm-hmm, at Saint Francis. JJ: My mother used to go all the way -- we lived near Holy Name Cathedral -- RR: Oh, wow. JJ: -- and we used to go all the way there. We used to go all the way to Saint Francis because that was the only Spanish 35 �mass in the city, I guess. It was a Mexican community. Or they’re not the only one at least (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RR: It was probably the only one early on. JJ: Apparently, there was one (inaudible) because you used to go to the church. RR: Yeah. [00:36:00] Because -- and that’s in grade school. JJ: All the way (inaudible). RR: Yeah. JJ: Because you say nobody knew where cilantro was? [laughter] RR: I’d go into a place and say like National or whatever and Yeah. And that was mostly for supplies. say, “Hey, my parents want me to get this thing. It’s like parsley but it’s called cilantro,” and I didn’t know what it was in English. And they’d look and say, “Oh, parsley.” “No, no, it’s not parsley. carry it.” You can see.” “Oh, we don’t It’s like it was really strange. So you’d walk down there and even if it was a short area from, oh, about 12th Street down, two blocks, you had the old tortilla makers, masa for tamales, they had the imports so ma would get her mole down there. Because she couldn’t get it any place else so she’d get a bunch of cilantro. It was -- in that sense that you had a little enclave [00:37:00] there. We knew that there was other Hispanic on the South Side but we never went farther than 12th Street. That’s about as far 36 �as we went. JJ: But you said there was some other (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RR: And there was Greek -- yeah. And we knew Greektown because it was just north of there. JJ: So Greektown was actually there were Greek people living there. RR: Oh yeah, yeah. JJ: It wasn’t like today where there’s just restaurants. RR: Oh no, it was Greektown. Yeah. It is. That was one of the things that was amazing to me early on as I traveled around the city. There was enclaves of people and they were definitely -- Well, Helmut moved to a block north of Armitage and roughly Kildare. And at that time, it was like two square blocks of nothing but German people. The street where that ended on the other side were all Polish and that’s where [Lewandowski?] lived. Let’s see. Wolfgang -- I don’t know if you remember [Wolfgang Holtz?]? JJ: Wolfgang, oh yeah. RR: [00:38:00] Wolfgang Holtz, John (inaudible), Helmut Traum. Traum moved out there. That’s where he met Lewandowski and that’s where I eventually -JJ: Are these -- Wolf, wasn’t he in Saint Teresa’s or --? RR: Yeah, he was at Saint Teresa’s. 37 �JJ: So his name was (inaudible) -- RR: And he moved out. He didn’t graduate with us. wind up at DePaul Academy. “We moved out.” JJ: Okay. But he did And I’d say, “Where you been?” And that was -- He went -- after Saint Joseph’s, he went to DePaul in high school. RR: Yeah, he went to DePaul Academy. my choice. Yeah. Because Waller was It was either Waller or DePaul. I said I’m going -JJ: And I went to Waller. RR: Oh, God. JJ: (laughs) But I actually came from Newberry. problems at Newberry. And I had My mother was working with training the catechism classes and she got me into Saint Teresa’s. RR: How did you get into Saint Michael’s? Because you got into Saint Michael’s thing and I -JJ: No, no, no. Saint Michael’s was [00:39:00] my mother was working with the Caballeros of San Juan -RR: Caballeros San Juan, yeah. JJ: -- and there were a few students that were Spanish -- they were Puerto Rican that used to go to Saint Michael’s but very few. The rest were from public schools. mother was doing catechism classes. And my But she would do it for the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de Maria. But 38 �they had a big council on the three there. And so I became -- because I was an altar boy at Saint Teresa’s, I went to the first Spanish mass there. Because their whole thing was to give Spanish mass. RR: Right. It can -- JJ: And they were -- they achieved that at Saint Teresa’s and Saint Michael’s. And I became like one of the first altar boys at Saint Michael’s for the Spanish mass. So that was my badge of honor to do that. RR: Yeah, because that’s a part of you I never knew. I knew you were doing [00:40:00] stuff at Saint Michael’s but I’m going, “Why is he going all that far?” with Saint Teresa’s? JJ: That’s because my mother was working there. the catechism classes. She was doing And she would put in the stuff from like the priesthood and put together. RR: Yeah, I know. Remember the priest that took you and me up to [Donaldson, Wisconsin?]? JJ: What do you mean? RR: Oh, God. I don’t remember the whole thing but -- I don’t know. At some point or another, you and I got together when we were talking about what we were going to do about changing the world. JJ: What do you mean? What were we talking about? RR: How things had to change. We can’t keep up with -- it was the time of Vietnam War. It was also the time of Missiles 39 �Remember Anne’s class, we were -- of October. JJ: Was it history in Anne’s -- that’s about the eighth grade. RR: Eighth grade, yeah. JJ: So we were talking political -- RR: Seventh and eighth grade, we were already talking politics about how -- JJ: Are you sure? Are you serious? RR: Oh, I’m dead serious. JJ: I don’t remember it. RR: Oh, I do. JJ: What do you remember? RR: What I remember mostly is we would have -- and this was the I do. other Sister, Hermann Joseph that’s a -- [00:41:00] You were an altar boy, I was an altar boy. We’d always take the early masses because that way, we could (laughs) we wouldn’t have to show up at noon. JJ: What would we do? RR: Yeah. JJ: What could we do if we took the early masses? RR: Well, if you take the early masses, you don’t get assigned the ten and eleven o’clock mass on a Sunday which ruins your Sunday. JJ: Oh, okay. RR: And then also if you got the 6:00, 6:30 during the week, 40 �you didn’t have to go to mass for class. JJ: So you were pretty good at that because I remember I was just following you. RR: Oh, God. That was -- I remember that. Good God. JJ: So you used to take the early masses? RR: Yeah. JJ: But I used to take the early masses because I felt bad that sometimes, the other altar boys wouldn’t show up. RR: Well, that was a big problem and then that’s why Father loved us because you’d take the early masses? are nuts. But I preferred the early masses. These guys I always did. And somewhere along the line, we were -JJ: What was his name? RR: Oh, God. Father what? [Father Brown?] was there for a while. remember Father Brown. later on. I [00:42:00] [Father Obi?] was there There’s one in there I’m missing. remember most of all is [Father Headley?]. The one I He was the Hispanic-speaking priest. JJ: He was there? RR: He was there later, much later. JJ: (inaudible). Because he was involved with the Caballeros, also. RR: Yeah. He was. He -- JJ: I didn’t know he was at Saint Teresa’s, too. 41 �RR: Oh, yeah. And do you know he got kicked out? Or he got kicked into missionary work because they were beginning to think he was a little too radical? JJ: Right. RR: And I thought -- JJ: Oh, they say he was too radical? RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) think he was radical (inaudible) -- RR: Well, he was rad- -- JJ: Oh, he was radical all the time. RR: There was a -- one of the first times I -- when I was I -- I didn’t know that. serving mass for him -JJ: You served mass with him? RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: Well, I might’ve. RR: Oh God. I thought you did, too. So he was -- he came in. He was doing a Sunday mass and I don’t remember if it was the 8:00 or 9:00. was one of those times; I got a later one. It And [00:43:00] he came in and one of the big issues we’d had at some point in school and other places was having to do with some of the civil rights stuff that was going on about whether people were being treated fairly. And since we didn’t have a lot of Blacks, we didn’t have any Blacks almost, we talked about other -- and how things had to change and 42 �stuff. And that’s where we -- you brought up something about, “Oh, yeah,” and I had been talking about the priesthood, too. And there was -- JJ: There was a diagram? RR: Yeah, so you brought the CSSRs, the ones out of Saint Michael’s. And that’s one of the times and I can’t remember if it was in eighth grade -JJ: So it was in there when you sent me the name of the -- RR: The Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer. JJ: Okay, I brought that up in the conversation or --? RR: Yeah, as part of somebody you knew and they were looking to see if we were interested in going -- [00:44:00] JJ: To The Redemptorists, okay. RR: To Redemptorists, yeah. And a priest said, “Hey, do you want to come and visit the minor seminary?” And you and I took a ride with him all the way up there. JJ: So you went with me there. RR: Yeah. We went together. I got stung on the knee with a bee. I remember that that morning. JJ: Okay. I remember I took a trip but -- RR: And then The Servites. JJ: Was it -- oh, they were called The Servites? RR: And then there was another -- and The Servite came through -43 �JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) recruited us. RR: They recruited us, yeah. They came to school and talked to us and they were talking about going to minor seminary. You and I got -- “Hey, let’s -- you know, we could pair up. We could have a good time.” JJ: You know, I remember a conversation about because I wanted to be a -- to serve the priesthood. That I remember. it wasn’t -- to me, that wasn’t political. But It was just like we needed to save the Latino (laughs) community or something. RR: Yeah. That eventually became a -- JJ: But that’s what you mean by save the world. RR: Yeah. The world was where we lived and what we knew. The Latino community was you, me, and -JJ: [00:45:00] I was interpreting it differently than I would’ve interpreted it today. RR: Yeah. You, me, and Glenn Messa. And Glenn Messa was Cuban and he thought that Puerto Ricans and Mexicans were below (laughs) his dignity. And he didn’t even speak Spanish. So that was it. JJ: I didn’t know as a kid (inaudible) -- we had all (inaudible). We had a whole connection with it. RR: Yeah. So Father Headley is starting mass. JJ: (inaudible) -- so if Father Headley was there, you served. 44 �I must’ve served, too, because -RR: You did. JJ: -- we were there at the same time. RR: Yeah. JJ: I remember [Father Hoffmann?] (inaudible) because for some Because you and I stopped serving probably -- reason -RR: Oh, Hoffmann, yeah. The guy -- JJ: That’s why -- RR: Yeah. JJ: I had a lot of respect for him. But he had -- he kind of - - later on, it felt like distance when the Young Lords came out. And he didn’t support us. RR: Oh, yeah. I remember -- JJ: Because I remember walking into the church one day and he was talking against me. And I had a -- like get -- trying to raise money for my bond and [00:46:00] I had no way to get bonded out. And I walked in there and he was like, “Are you sure we should trust him getting him out? he doesn’t pay back or --?” I was there. What if So then, he turned around and But I respect that (inaudible). But he did support us (inaudible). RR: Yeah, Headley basically told the people that came in -- JJ: He doesn’t care, either. RR: Yeah, I know. (laughs) Headley came in and he was saying mass and 45 �he had been around. And he -- here’s his -- the eight o’clock mass is where all the -- most of the people came. You got plenty of other people in the other but -- and he gets up and he goes, “I’m ditching today’s sermon,” he says. “I’m looking at you guys. How dare you come into this place of worship when you’re doing --” and he started listing things like being racist, offensive talking, cheating. He says, “You guys come in here.” He says, “Clean that up before [00:47:00] you come in.” “Oh, my God. I’m going, He sounds like you, me, and what we’ve been talking about for so long that needs to change.” JJ: Mm-hmm. This is Headley Father. RR: Yeah, this is Headley. are wide open. Yeah. The people were like mouths I’m like, “Go for it!” (laughs) The one -- Father Brown is the one and I like Father Brown. But we were in the middle of Vietnam War and we -JJ: So when I -- are you saying I was talking like this, too, or --? RR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: We were talking like that. RR: I was talking like that, you were talking like that. JJ: We were both talking like that about changing the world in that sense? RR: Yeah, in sense that we need -46 �JJ: This is pre-Young Lords before I got into the political arena. RR: To me, my dad’s always been a political animal. So even though -JJ: Your dad was a political animal like that? RR: Yeah. JJ: What’s your dad’s name again? RR: [Ricardo?]. JJ: Ricardo (inaudible). RR: [Guadalupe?]. JJ: So he was a political animal? RR: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: He was very much seeing that the world, the government, And he -- Yeah. And -- [00:48:00] the social things should be different. JJ: Where does that (inaudible)? RR: Oh, God. Him? Dad was a quasi-philosopher and he grew up during the persecution of the Catholic church in Mexico. And he was put in a seminary almost as an orphan for a number of years. And he came out with this kind of philosopher’s bent. Socialist. JJ: Hm. RR: Yeah. He saw things very much as kind of a And he didn’t see the -- (inaudible) Socialist? For socialism? He -- he needs to be an equality of things. And he 47 �always saw that things could be better but it’s not going to get better if we keep doing the dumb things we’re doing. So Dad would preach a lot to us. And -- JJ: [00:49:00] And their siblings are -- what are their names? RR: Oh, my sister is Rosalia. And my next one would be Rebecca, and then there’s Reynaldo, and my littlest one is -- I got to not call her -- her name is Sochi. JJ: So three girls and -- RR: Three. JJ: Same in my family. RR: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we all -- There was three girls and I so -- Well, it was -- I mean, there’s 11 years’ difference between my little sister and me. And I -- Ma got kind of sick there for a while so I was doing a lot of the familytype stuff because Dad had to go to work. But yeah, yeah, there was always an issue in our family of community service and I became an altar boy at Saint Joe’s. And so I had been so -- [00:50:00] [Sister Hilda?], Sister Hilda, fourth grade is where -- when I started -JJ: You mean at Saint Teresa’s. RR: At Saint Teresa’s, yeah. JJ: You were not an altar boy at Saint Joseph’s. You were there, too? RR: Yeah. JJ: But you were already an altar boy. 48 �RR: Yeah. JJ: So you were already (inaudible). RR: I was ready for anything, yeah. was pretty religious. way. So when we (inaudible) -I would even -- yeah, I I still am today but in a different And so the issues from a political point of view was always that things could be better. And one of the big things that was impacting to me and always did was the idea of racism. Because if we had Black kids in the house or in the yard playing, the neighbors would go nuts. And my mother would say basically, “Look: as long as they behave, they stay here. You can’t keep your mouth shut, you leave because I won’t have any of that.” So Ma was always -- so we had all [00:51:00] sorts of kids. And the German kids if they wanted to come over, the Italian kids could. no racist stuff. But The minute it started, she’d be out there going, “You need to leave. You can’t behave that way.” for me, I had a broader view from the get-go. So And with a dad who was constantly saying, “We need a fair wage. We need to have unions or we need things that --" JJ: He used to talk about workers’ rights. RR: Yeah, workers’. JJ: He was a Socialist. RR: Yeah, exactly. JJ: I didn’t know that. That’s all he ever did. That’s what I understand. But I didn’t know anything about that. 49 �When we were hanging out together, we -RR: It was sports and philosophy most of the -- JJ: Sports and philosophy mostly (inaudible). RR: Yeah, that’s what it was most of the time. JJ: But we were talking about wanting to get into the priesthood. RR: Yeah, because we were going to serve. JJ: I mean, did we talk about -- have those conversations or -? RR: Yeah, we talked about going -- in fact -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: -- at one point, the most I remember is out of eighth grade because we were -- the question was whether we were going to go. [00:52:00] And which one? Redemptorists or The Servites? Was it going to be The And we were tending toward The Servites because they were going to give us a free ride and neither one of our parents could afford it. of us were service-oriented. what do you want to do?” And both And we talked about, “Well, “Well, first we got to get through this thing.” JJ: What do you mean service-oriented? RR: Service-oriented. We tended to do things for people. We tended to -- you have a thing that I don’t have which is charisma. I don’t -- I’ve never had charisma. I was kind 50 �of different but -JJ: What do you mean I had charisma and you didn’t? RR: When you talked about something, people could stand there and listen to you. got a point.” And they would go, “Oh, yeah, the guy’s can’t talk.” Me, I’d do that and they’d say, “The guy So you had a certain -- when we needed [00:53:00] a baseball team together, you could get one together faster than we could. JJ: But it sounds like a community organizing. RR: Hey, that’s okay. W. Thurman taught me some of that. It took me until I was in high school and college to learn those traits. You had them so -- [Jeff Williams?] is another guy who I learned from and that was in college. But it -- we were more community. We need to change things, we needed to -- and the priesthood seemed like a logical way to go. And what -- the first thing that went to hell was -JJ: I do remember wanting to be like the first priest because that’s what the [Retemptors?] were saying. We don’t have any Latinos priests -RR: Mm-hmm. We don’t have no Latinos, we don’t have anybody who can -JJ: See, I wanted to be the first. Be the first, just you and I. 51 �RR: Yeah. JJ: But I wanted to be the first priest. (inaudible). So my only first that But you were -- wanted the same thing. [00:54:00] RR: Oh yeah. I wanted -- having grown up how I did, I saw the need to change the world. JJ: But I also knew I had to change me first. You can’t jump into it. training. And -- You got to get See, you were more intellectual than I was. I always looked up to you because of your intelligence at that time. And to me, I just -RR: Hey, I’ve gotten stupider. (laughter) As the years have gone on, it’s gotten worse. JJ: I think it’s just part of it. I got to learn from you. RR: Oh, no. JJ: But I had charisma and you had the intelligence, I wish I knew what I -- then what I know now. intellectually. RR: But we were going to go and then I’m not sure what happened was we both applied to The Servites. And we needed to get -- we got signatures from the priest, parish priest, and we needed something from Sister Anne. And [00:55:00] as best as I can remember, Sister Anne and the priest would not sign yours. JJ: Right. 52 �RR: The impression I got and I’m trying -- because I never got the story straight because it ended right there. The way I got it was that your Ma owed Sister Anne or the school some money for your tuition. And since she hadn’t paid it off, Sister withheld her signature. And then the story with the priest and I don’t remember which priest it was at the time. But they wouldn’t send it -- sign it to you because they said that they couldn’t determine that your mother and father were married at the time you were had so they -- you couldn’t be a priest anyway. “That’s wrong.” couldn’t get in. going in.” Because -- and I went, And then it was done. It was like you “Well, if you’re not going in, I ain’t And at [00:56:00] that point, it was the end of eighth grade and I still thought about going. But I figured, “Well, I can always go to the academy, pick up the stuff, and then leave after the academy and go on.” But it didn’t work out that way. JJ: Now, we did owe her some money. RR: Mm-hmm. JJ: That’s true because I -- in fact, I was -- I started selling those candy bars because I felt guilty I hadn’t actually -- RR: Oh, I remember those. JJ: -- switch places selling the candy bars because I felt bad 53 �that we didn’t have the money. RR: Nobody did. JJ: But one of the other reasons that -- the problem was that I started (inaudible), too. It was snowing and we started playing around throwing snowballs at the (inaudible) -RR: Oh, the snowball incident where somebody got hit. JJ: Yeah, and the priest was coming out of the -- he saw that. He was on the bus. So he saw the person get hit or something like that so he knew about -- he heard about the snowball. RR: Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that. JJ: So I guess that was the [00:57:00] broke the camel’s back. The -- RR: But see, to me, that was all wrong and that’s the wrong reason. I mean, you have two eager kids who are willing to go to the edges of hell and you suddenly cut them off? I’m going, “I’m not going by myself here. And We need a team,” you know. JJ: Because we got suspended and we (inaudible) for throwing snowballs at the -- I mean, we apologized (laughs) (inaudible) -- RR: It didn’t do any good. JJ: It didn’t do any good, either. so (inaudible). But we also owed them money But you recall that? 54 �RR: I remember the money thing. And I remember the, now that you bring it up, the snowball thing. God. JJ: So that was the big gossip at the school? RR: No, actually, I got it from my mom. my Ma. I got it mostly from Again, being intellectual, you tend to knock things out that -- so it was sad. JJ: But I didn’t know you quit because I -- RR: No, I had nobody to -- JJ: Because we were pretty tight, we were pretty tight. RR: We were pretty tight there. JJ: [00:58:00] We were tight friends. RR: And it was that summer that we went totally because I had to work full-time and I got a job at UPS. JJ: Oh, really? RR: And then after that didn’t pan out, it was brutal. I worked at Schwinn. And it was like you got to be there at seven o’clock, you get home at 4:00, you’re beat to hell. I mean, working on the assembly line. JJ: So I remember -- RR: And at that point, you were gone. JJ: And then they had a graduation party and I wasn’t invited was another incident. RR: I didn’t go to that, either. (laughs) JJ: You didn’t go to that -- you weren’t invited, either? 55 �RR: (laughs) No, I don’t think so. JJ: So I don’t think you’re -- I don’t think you’re wanted as a Spanish-speaker. walking around. But I found out about it because I’m By that time, I went from wanting to be a priest to wanting to be the best gang member, right? (laughs) Because -- RR: Social organizer, yeah. JJ: That’s why I went into the Young [00:59:00] Lords gang, basically. So I was kind of in between at that point. But the priests, they were not necessarily completely (inaudible). But I think that they were -- they were a little unrepresented. RR: Oh, no. I to this day. But again, here’s what wisdom comes with age. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- but I was changing -I changed. I mean, a few incidents kind of changed me. I mean, during that summer was -- I went to jail two or three times. That summer, I ended up getting deported. RR: Really? JJ: Yeah, I got sent to Puerto Rico on the plane. RR: Oh, God. JJ: Because -- RR: I knew you were in trouble, but I -- we didn’t see each other anymore. 56 �JJ: -- I had some -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) it went downhill from there, from that point. RR: And then we went -- at that point, it was like -- JJ: Because I couldn’t afford to go to Catholic high school. I had to go to Waller. RR: Yeah. You know what was paying my Catholic high school was working. Because my dad wasn’t making any money [01:00:00] and Ma was staying home with the kids, so yeah. And then when we were talking before, you were asking why I didn’t get involved with the gang. Because I was too busy trying to make money so that I could go to school. And then also, I was thinking, “What am I going to do when I get out of high school?” JJ: But you know, you mentioned one time before walking through the neighborhood and feeling -- RR: Well, once I knew you and I didn’t care whether you were in a gang or not, and we talked even a couple of times and you already told me you were looking at different -- And I wasn’t quite sure what it was. couple of the guys. And you introduced me to a I don’t even remember their names. mean, it was like a one-, maybe two-time thing. I And then they were all real friendly and it was almost a reassuring thing because I would see some of them every so often and say, “Hey.” And you felt like what we talked about early 57 �on that walking -- first of all, I was older. Second of all, somebody’s got my back. [01:01:00] We had a conversation and I don’t remember when it was. I don’t know if it was the following year or if it was that summer. And you were deciding that this was the route you were going to take and I think you were telling me that that’s what it was. And I kind of said, “Uh,” and you said, “Hey, you need to be a college boy.” And I kind of -- that’s the first time that I heard that term and I have no idea where it came from. need to do.” But it was like, “Yeah, maybe that’s what I And I guess that year was really critical for both of us because at that point, I said, “Okay. going to go that route.” We’re I think if I can be -- it turns out, by the way, I was the first Hispanic to get a master’s degree at DePaul University. JJ: Oh. Congratulations. RR: Well, you know, I didn’t know until two years after I graduated. That’s how -- JJ: [01:02:00] So you went to DePaul University. RR: Yeah. And long, strange story about that one. But anyhow, I got a scholarship and what the scholarship didn’t pay, I could draw from -- and Mom saved all the money I made so some of it went to the household. went to college funds. Some of it -- all it And then I continued to work. So 58 �the reason I can retire and have Medicaid even now is because most of that, not because of this. JJ: But you thought you would walk through the neighborhood and now you feel a little comfortable -- RR: Oh yeah. Because I knew the guys. JJ: And then they got -- there was more Spanish people. RR: There was a lot more Spanish people. JJ: That didn’t even do no good or --? RR: Well, a lot of it did. I didn’t -- I never had problems with any of the Spanish-speaking people. It didn’t matter what they were. Because it was like it was in a way, a familiar face. And another thing is that every so [01:03:00] often, we -- we didn’t do it -- most of the time, we spoke in English. But every so often, we’d go Spanish. There’s something very comforting about speaking Spanish with someone; It’s like a common link. So that it doesn’t matter whether you’re Puerto Rican or whether you’re Guatemalan or Honduran. If you speak the same language, it’s kind of a common bond. That’s the way I felt. Also we were getting more people and then people weren’t making fun of my mom’s pozole because now, everybody was having pozole. And you didn’t have to make fun of me for pasteles because I thought they were cakes. forget that. (laughter) I’ll never That was awesome because we learned from each 59 �other. JJ: When was that? (inaudible) -- RR: You and your mom invited me over. And I said, “Well, should I bring something or something? having for food?” Or what is she “Oh, she’s going to have some pasteles.” [01:04:00] And it didn’t ring on me that it would -pastele in my dialect means cake. And then we got there and I was like, “Those are pasteles?” “You got to open them up and unwrap them and --” “Oh my God, that’s what it is.” It was a wonderful, for me, learning experience. was like, “Wow, that’s what a pastele is.” It And your mom made things -- arroz con habichuelas? RR: Right. JJ: I never heard of that. And it was like, “Hey, that’s good. It has a different taste.” So I got a broader venue and then we had people who were from different parts of Mexico living across the street and they used to trade stuff with my mom. I’m going, “What’s that?” to try it.” She goes, “Oh, you got It would be something new all the time. So in a sense, the link that didn’t exist before started being -we had things in common. had a common language. had some commonality. We were all poor. The second, we Third, we had [01:05:00] foods that And then at that -- right about that time, we started having the first Spanish mass. And then 60 �suddenly, all the Hispanics are coming out of the woodwork and they’re -JJ: So at that time, when you stayed there for Spanish mass at Saint Teresa’s -- RR: Oh God. I’m trying to -- JJ: Is that what you’re talking about? RR: Yeah, exactly. JJ: So I don’t recall that very much. RR: I’m trying to figure out the year. JJ: So you don’t remember the date. RR: It was a big thing because -- JJ: Why was that a big thing? RR: It was a big thing for two reasons. fabulous. That was really surprising. Was it (inaudible)? One, I thought it was Vatican II. Now first of all, because it was an extension of Besides turning the Latin mass into English, now for people like my parents and other people who were mostly Spanish-speaking, it -- now, they could go to church and feel like, “What’d he -- what say?” (laughs) No, no, it’s [01:06:00] in Spanish. JJ: So did they feel like a victory or something or --? RR: Oh, they felt -- JJ: (inaudible) and you felt. RR: I felt it. I did, too. I felt it was a great thing and I wasn’t used to it so initially, it was very uncomfortable. Because I 61 �- even though you can deal with, in the religious sense, it’s a different story. And it was -- it was kind of neat. And it wasn’t too much later that Caballeros de San Juan and las Damas started forming a chapter at Saint Teresa’s and they took off from there. Well, by that time, I was already -- I was off doing my own growing up. JJ: (laughs) So now, now you’re in high school and some of the people from Saint Teresa’s also went to the Saint Vincent, right? RR: Yeah, it’s at DePaul University Academy was the actual name of the place. JJ: It was a high school? RR: It was a high school, yeah. JJ: It was called the DePaul University Academy? RR: Yeah, it was -- JJ: [01:07:00] Who were some of the people that went from Saint Teresa’s? RR: Oh, Landini was there, [Timbo?] was there, I was there. Who else? John Glaw was there, Traum -- JJ: Do you remember [Kuszczak?]? RR: Yeah, I remember Kuszczak. JJ: Do you remember him? RR: Yeah, he was a year ahead of us, wasn’t he? JJ: Yeah, exactly. RR: Yeah, he went there. 62 �JJ: I thought (laughs) he was in a gang or something, I don’t know. (laughs) RR: Yeah. And that was -- JJ: But you recognized him. JJ: I’m trying to think. RR: But he was -- I know he was from Saint Teresa’s. JJ: Who else was there? from Saint Teresa’s. The other people -- Traum used to be Lewandowski was -- others so -- RR: Those are people you grew up with, too. JJ: Yeah, from (inaudible). JJ: So what was high school there like? RR: High school was real interesting. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RR: Oh, God. It was almost an instant replay what we’ve just been saying because early on, it was like I’m trying to think. There was [Castillo?], Rebollar, and [01:08:00] one other kid. There was like three Hispanic kids in that class and it would be -JJ: Rebollar was in there, too? RR: Yeah, freshman year in high school. And then the rest of them were Italians and Germans and what’s it called. And the guy that I got shacked up with because we had to share a -JJ: Did you meet [Angie Rizzo?] at that time? Or no? 63 �RR: No, no. JJ: She (inaudible) Rizzo, Angie Rizzo? RR: No. JJ: Oh, it was all boys. RR: Yeah, no girls. JJ: But she went to DePaul or (inaudible)? RR: No. JJ: No? RR: Never did. JJ: Maybe she went to [Grammars?]. RR: Probably Grammars. JJ: (inaudible). RR: Yeah. JJ: Yeah. RR: Yeah. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: -- we had very few Hispanics and initially on, we got a I didn’t have -- it’s an all-boys school. No? That would be out of the Saint Vincent’s school. So anyhow -- little bit abused. [01:09:00] But then again, it was like we were all there to survive and they were pretty tough discipline-wise. So any time it got out of hand, they got in there and then basically disciplined so it didn’t last long. JJ: We also were -- started going -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- where was this going on? 64 �RR: Dean of Men. JJ: Who? RR: Dean of Men, the priest. JJ: Every time they would come up? RR: Oh, God. JJ: So you mean they came with some (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: Oh yeah. They’d walk in there and [Rigacci?] is doing a number on me because I’m a beaner. He’d grab Rigacci and smash him in the mouth and say, “That doesn’t happen here.” And then he’d walk away. JJ: And this is the Dean. RR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: He’ll smack that -- RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: That was his way of screaming? RR: Oh God, yeah. JJ: Because someone was harassing you at that time? RR: Oh, yeah. And he would never -- he never looked at me. He just grabbed him and said, “That doesn’t happen here,” he smashed him, and then left. JJ: It was a racial thing. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: There was no doubt about it. And then, “Well.” [01:10:00] No doubt about that. 65 �RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: So you met all the other -- people were harassing the other Latinos (inaudible)? RR: Yeah. There was only three, four in my class. JJ: And they were all -- they were all harassed. RR: Yeah, at one point or another. JJ: So this is (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RR: Three of us got -- oh, yeah. Two of us -- three of us -- So if it got caught -- if they got caught, they got disciplined. can’t remember his name. remember. One guy really -- I I can see his face, but I can’t himself. He took it badly and he absolutely isolated We tried to -- because we were -- and no. would not. through. He He hated everybody and he was going to make it He did, he made it all four years, but he absolutely had nothing to do with any of the students. That was really surprising. But the rest of us, we just -- I mean eventually, we wanted in. I mean, literally, yeah. They weren’t going to tolerate. JJ: So by the end of the first year, you were -- RR: End of the first year I would say, yeah, I would say we were the geeks and then there were the ones that were the jocks. [01:11:00] But everybody -- JJ: What did that mean? Geeks and jocks? RR: Oh God, geeks and jocks. 66 �JJ: You’re (inaudible) -- RR: Oh, we were the ones that studied too much and the jocks were the ones that were -- the guys who played baseball or football. And they had to study because you’d flunk. got one summer to make it up. get thrown out. You If you don’t make it up, you They were really, really tough on academics. JJ: Now, what year was this? Do you remember? RR: Nineteen sixty-three. JJ: You’re talking about 1963. RR: Sixty-three, ’67. JJ: Sixty-seven? RR: Yeah. JJ: And then the neighborhood is still changing, right? RR: Oh yeah. Yeah. Sixty-seven? At this point, it’s now going through more dramatic change. We’re having more Hispanics, more Blacks. A lot of the people that we knew five years, six years before have now moved out. It’s -- JJ: So all of the Italians and Irish and German -- RR: Yeah, a lot of them are gone, [01:12:00] yeah. JJ: -- are moving out. RR: Yeah. JJ: And how did you feel about that (inaudible)? Or were you saying -67 �RR: I’m a high schooler; I could care less. I’m growing up, I’m going through puberty. JJ: Okay. RR: A lot of the times, since we had -- since we were socializing, we’d have to go to Immaculata. Immaculata is up on Irving Park. neighborhood. Now, I mean, that’s a snooty Some, you know -- people let you know that you were -- yeah. And then if we want another one, we might go to Josephinum which was on Oakley and North Avenue roughly. JJ: So you’re socializing with the Catholic (inaudible). RR: Yeah, Catholic, yeah. Because that’s where the major -- you know, and -JJ: And [01:13:00] they got to divide it. This is all over men (sic), this is all under men so -RR: Yeah, right. But the barriers were starting to break down. A lot of the barriers that we, that I saw -- I dated a Black girl. It’s like, “You’re kidding.” “Yeah, why not?” JJ: Who was asking if you’re kidding, your friends? RR: Yeah, your friends. harassed. It was kind of like, “You did that? different?” “Oh.” But it wasn’t like you were being “No, they’re just more tan.” Are they It was like, And then that’s where I dated the Polish girl and I got chased out of the neighborhood. That’s who I’m 68 �thinking of the one girl who lived on Taylor Street where she said, “Do not pick me up.” (laughs) JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Is this the (inaudible)? RR: Uh-uh, “We’ll meet you there.” JJ: Yeah. RR: So you date a girl and you can never go into her neighborhood because you’re Hispanic. And before, you couldn’t even go into the neighborhood. JJ: But you didn’t -- did you have any problem with that Black girl that you dated? RR: No, not at all. JJ: So you didn’t go in their neighborhood. RR: Well, she lived not too far from Josephinum. Yeah, yeah. [01:14:00] It wasn’t a big deal. RR: So no one gave you (inaudible) -- JJ: No. RR: -- when you dated a Polish? JJ: Polish girl, yeah. RR: Mexican dating Polish. RR: Oh yeah, it really was. So that was a problem. I -- my famous -- one of my famous -JJ: And she knew it. “Don’t pick me up here?” RR: Yeah, that was the Italian girl down on Taylor Street. Oh. She knew that you go down there, not a good place for 69 �Hispan- -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) races yet. RR: Yeah. I mean today, I sit and I teach these students and they’re -JJ: You’re teaching? Today you’re a teacher? Is that what you’re -RR: Today I’m teaching, a biology teacher. And I teach biology and chemis- -JJ: Mathematics is my worst subject. RR: Uh. JJ: (laughs) Just kidding. RR: But we -- the kids will bring up things like, “There’s all this tension.” kid.” My worst subject. I’m going, “You don’t know what tension is, I mean, you’re sitting next to a Black kid or [01:15:00] you know, but -- You would believe the story I tell is back in about 19- -- must’ve been about ’56 or so. Maybe it was even later -- ’60? My parents decided they were going to Mexico so we took, oh, Route 55 or 66 down and we wound up in Little Rock. And it was during the time they were having some racial issues so they had National Guard driving through. And I remember as a little kid going, “Oh, wow, look at all the trucks with the soldiers and they got guns.” And my dad had to get some gas and stuff at a gasoline station so I got out and I walked 70 �around because I had to go to the bathroom. And I looked at the -- and there’s a sign that says, “Entrance for Blacks.” It didn’t say Black; “Negroes.” Whites.” And I’m looking and [01:16:00] this white guy comes up. He goes, “Whatcha doin’, boy?” reading the signs.” “Yeah.” “Entrance for I said, “I’m He says, “Trying to decide?” I said, I said, “I’m not a Negro but I’m not a white.” And the guy looked at me and says, “You better decide soon,” and he went in. So I said, “Hell, I’m not going in there and I’m not going in there.” bushes. So I went in the (laughter) I mean, I don’t know what these -- my kids today would do if they were faced with that sort of thing. The stuff that you and I dealt with on an everyday basis to them would be absolutely horrific because they can date whoever they want. They will get static but not like we -- you don’t get chased out and have bottles (laughs) thrown at you because you’re in an Italian, Irish, German, or Black neighborhood. JJ: And -- You got chased out or we got chased out and bottles thrown at us? RR: Well, how many times when we walked over to Lincoln Park and we’d take [01:17:00] one of the side streets and didn’t take the main street? We had to literally run through certain neighborhoods because kids would start gathering. 71 �You knew that trouble was coming. You move. don’t know if you remember stuff like that. JJ: You remember it well. RR: Oh, God. I I do. (laughs) And so today, the kids -- I tell them, “You have no idea,” I says. JJ: Yeah. “Things are so more positive.” But then, we got -- or at least I got into the gang when I felt a little -- RR: But you know what was interesting about you getting into the gang? I saw that as an almost a social progression. Because what you’re seeing is you’re seeing the civil rights movement occurring and that was long overdue. But civil rights to me when Martin Luther King was speaking, he was not speaking as a Black man, he was a universal man. When he was talking about the universal rights of people and it doesn’t matter -- it was speaking to the same things you and I had been speaking about for years. That it doesn’t [01:18:00] matter whether you’re Puerto Rican, it doesn’t matter whether you’re Mexican, it doesn’t matter whether you’re Honduran. equal opportunities. It doesn’t -- you need to have And when you’re successful, you should have equal rewards and that wasn’t happening. So to me, I saw that as a momentous occasion as we were heading - and who were we learning from about social community action? Jeff Williams, Saul Alinsky, a Jew, a Black, W. 72 �Thurman, a community leader which is an old grandma who decided she was not going to have things. And we were -- do you remember the lady who was the social worker in our parish at Saint Teresa’s? I’m trying to think of her. can see her face; I can’t think of her name. facilitated when somebody needed something. I But she She facilitated through the parish things that should’ve been easily accessible for them. [01:19:00] So to me, it was -- here's this wonderful coming together of a lot of those things. JJ: So you said it was wonderful. So does that mean now, you don’t have to worry about walking around the neighborhood? RR: We’re at [Blackstone?], what was Fred Hampton? talking about, “We need more clinics. training facilities. He was We need more We need to channel this stuff.” This is the same stuff you were talking about early on that this is what we need. We need to get together as a people, we need to start creating these opportunities so that we can advance. The early stages of that were just absolutely fabulous, but I -JJ: But are you making the decision when we were a gang and it became more political or --? RR: Well to me, after you became a gang, you became political. You were political from the start. You were Puerto Ricans. 73 �JJ: What do you mean by that? RR: Hey, you couldn’t [01:20:00] have been a mixture because nobody was getting along. So you go with your common ethnicity and then you recognize that the ethnicity extends beyond. So you -- what did you guys form? The Rainbow Coalition, didn’t you? JJ: Later on, yeah. RR: Yeah. That was to me like, “Well, maybe this’ll work.” Because you’re looking at Blacks, you’re looking at poor white folk, and you’re looking at the people in between which is the Hispanics, the Brown folk. If we can get together, if we can change what’s going on because there were political issues. JJ: But I mean before that, way before that. I’m talking about when there was the Paragons and there was the Black Eagles and there was the Young Lords and -RR: But the nature of the gang was different. JJ: What do you mean? RR: Okay, so if you’re looking at the Paragons or Romo -- the Romo, they were there to protect their interests in their neighborhood and keep anybody who didn’t belong out. [01:21:00] At some point, that’s where everybody else started. The Blacks started the Patriots, the Young Patriots, and that’s where it all started. But as a civil 74 �rights awareness became, I think there was more -- so and the social background that you had already began to build up yourself began to create the opportunity that formed that coalition that would -- could never had formed if we hadn’t had the things that -JJ: Occurred before. RR: Yeah. JJ: So it was an extension. And I had -So from the gang to the political to the Rainbow Coalition. RR: Because if you’re looking at protecting your neighborhood, after a while, you’ve got to start worrying about, “Joe there doesn’t have any food. fed? How are we going to get him Well, let’s get him a job or let’s get him to do this or let’s get him,” you know. JJ: So that was unnatural. RR: It was unusual but [01:22:00] it was absolutely natural in terms of what had come before. And Fred Hampton was in the same position except that he was in a different neighborhood. (laughs) And I know very little about the Young Patriots except I know that they were on that Wilson area and that was vey transitional. I knew that there was a lot of poor white hillbilly folk out there and I know that they were having the same problems everybody else was having. 75 �JJ: But then we didn’t (inaudible). McCormick, (inaudible). All of a sudden, that’s in the newspaper and you say, “I know they’re celebrating there.” So how did you feel as a Latino at that time when the Young Lords (inaudible) with community presence? RR: Well, I’ll tell you what. “Yeah, finally.” It was like part of it was, And it was two things. One was the recognition of the community needs [01:23:00]. The second was validation of the role that your group was involved in. And finally, because of the eventual cooperation that McCormick actually did, I’m going, “Finally, somebody’s paying attention.” This is Father Headley 10 years down the line saying, “Okay, now we need to do something about this. We can’t just talk about it in the pulpit.” was -- in a way, it was like, “Wow. - I wonder where this is taking us.” this. Neat. So it Where is this - Unfortunately, it did And historically what -- JJ: Unfortunately what, later on (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah, everything fell apart. Part of it should’ve been obvious to me at the time and it wasn’t. It was a political issue and it was a power issue. JJ: Okay. What do you mean a political issue, a power issue? RR: Daily [01:24:00] controls. How does he control the city through the neighborhoods? 76 �JJ: So you could see that we were fighting Daley and that, too? RR: Oh, absolutely. JJ: It was clear. RR: Oh, absolutely. In ’67, it was dead clear to me because by that time, I was already involved in the anti-war movement. JJ: Oh, you got involved in that, too? RR: Yeah. I really heavily because a number of the guys I graduated with were killed in Nam within a year after we graduated. And I’m going -- JJ: And did you go into the military? RR: No. Strangest story. Remember when they went to the lottery system? JJ: Right. RR: I got one- -- I think it was 119, 116 out of what, 225? So they’re going to call everybody up to, “Two twenty-five.” And I’m waiting because I’m registered because I’m going, right? So a couple months go by so I actually went down to -- and I said, “I want to be able to make plans. [01:25:00] I’m 119.” The lady looked at me and says, “You’re not being drafted.” I’m 119.” “What? They’re going to 225, She says, “We don’t need you.” said go back to school. Gave me an A-3, So I didn’t hesitate. Went right back to school. (laughs) We were worried about my brother for the same reason but he got a high number. But 77 �it was -- I saw kids that came back. wonder, “What a waste. And you begin to What a stinking waste.” In ’67 when the Democratic Convention came, I had a couple incidents happen to me that immediately told me that it didn’t make any sense. One of the local -- I think it was a Presbyterian church on Fullerton used to have sunrise services down by that museum. And that weekend -- JJ: Which museum? RR: The one on [01:26:00] Armitage and Clark. Yeah. I went down there and I felt out of place because most of them were older people, you know like we are now. it was just an old, standard crowd. (laughs) And Some kids and maybe about three, four of us that happened to be in there. And we’re sitting there and it’s the middle of services and suddenly, I hear this pop. And cannisters of CS flying over our heads right at us. And a bunch of idiots are coming in. Cops. It turned into a race and the four of us must’ve run that -- it’s about a mile from there to Sheffield, dodging through alleys, through ca- --[01:27:00] these guys were after us. And they were willing to take out all these other people that were innocent. going, “What did we do?” Well, we were young and we were anti-war and that’s all it took. Daley’s orders. And I’m And those were all And we knew it at that point. If I had 78 �any doubts, that convinced me. his Red Squad. Daley’s after us. He’s got He's going to be chasing us all over. And that happened several times to several other people and I just never expected it to happen and it did. “That’s it. And I said, Daley’s going to start -- he’s going to start attacking these people that are --” And sure enough, it -- over time, he used the sheriff’s department and he took and basically take out the leaders. They’ll fight among each other, the thing will collapse. And that’s basically what happened. JJ: So [01:28:00] you got into the anti-war and so you were talking about McCormick Seminary again. And you thought that that was a -RR: Oh, that I thought was a high point. It was extremely promising because what I saw is if you can get the ministry in, if you can get the archdiocese involved, and things will change. JJ: But in the community, how did that (inaudible)? RR: It was very promising but it split the community in half. It -- all right. So you have those people that a lot -- see what’s going on and they’re hoping for some change. And then you have the old timers. old timers. And I don’t want to say People who have been living there and they feel like they’re really invested. And they see that as a 79 �really dangerous thing. of thing. Church doesn’t belong in this sort What’s wrong with our community? [01:29:00] the rabblerousers out of here. That we need And if the Vietnam War wasn’t doing enough splitting, and it split almost inside the lines, pro-war, anti-war. JJ: So it was splitting? So this was a -- so the fact that the Young Lords (inaudible) doesn’t exist. They took over an apartment and it polarized the community more? RR: Oh yeah, it did. JJ: But it was good on blending old versus (inaudible)? RR: Yeah, that’s not the way to get things done. It was that sort of thing. It doesn’t “Well, we tried the old way. work.” JJ: So similar were people were for and they couldn’t oppose it. So they said that’s not the way to do it. RR: Mm-hmm. JJ: So they couldn’t oppose it because there were some -because we were fighting for housing -- RR: Mm-hmm, for affordable housing. JJ: -- for housing we couldn’t afford. It was that. And they said, “That’s not the -- that’s not the right way to do it [01:30:00] taking over a building.” RR: Right. What they were talking about was the old thing. You would go to your Ward committee man and you -- what are 80 �we going to trade for what we need? And that was the old way. JJ: So there was a discussion about that. RR: I’m sure there was. I’m not sure. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Okay. there wasn’t. If there wasn’t, But were you saying some people were saying why don’t you work through the community? RR: Yeah, work through the old system. JJ: But the community men were the ones that were evicting people like me (inaudible). RR: Yeah, sure. JJ: So I mean, but there were some discussion at the time. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: Oh yeah, there was. And that occurred at church sometimes. Sometimes, we got -JJ: So, now we take over The Peoples Church. No, before that. Before that, there’s a march for Manuel Ramos. Did you hear about that or --? RR: I remember the name vaguely. JJ: Because that was at Saint Teresa’s, the funeral? RR: [01:31:00] Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay, so that was -- RR: By that time, yeah -- JJ: What else do you remember about the Young Lords? 81 �RR: Well, for me, the one -- JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: -- they seemed to go more political as they started to come down. With you being in jail and Fred Hampton being killed, the Young Patriots pulled up -JJ: Was that being discussed? main group in or --? RR: Was that being discussed in the Or (inaudible)? At this point, I’m not living at home anymore. I’m actually living up on Belmont. JJ: Oh, you didn’t tell me that. RR: Yeah, so it’s -- I’m not hearing as much. hearing is I go home on Sundays. Most of what I’m And so by the time I hit ’67, ’60- -- I was out of the house by I would say September at the latest of ’67. JJ: Oh, so you weren’t living [01:32:00] in that (inaudible) and the Young Lords. RR: Even though I was going to school there, I wasn’t really -- JJ: So what did you hear about that? Did you hear anything (inaudible)? RR: Most of it through school. There was like a -- we’d occasionally meet at a place called [the Coffee House First Step?] and somebody would come in and they’d say, “Did you see this?” The Seed would carry something on that which was that paper out of -82 �JJ: The Seed? RR: -- yeah, out of Old Town. JJ: They distributed the Seed? RR: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so the -- RR: The Seed and there was several -- JJ: -- I remember the Seed was for the people that smoked weed, too, and that. RR: Oh yeah. Yeah. JJ: So were you smoking weed at that time? RR: Oh, no. No. I was too busy trying to stay alive. was -- I never got into that. No, I I never got into that. A little bit of alcohol, yes. JJ: But no other drugs. RR: No, no. No, I never -- some of the guys did. we formed a group that was to help people. get -- you know, you’re in college. drunk [01:33:00] out of his mind. And in fact, Because we’d You’d get a kid who’s One of my buddies got -- his girlfriend left him so he decided to get drunk. got some pure alcohol so he got alcohol poisoning. But he So we decided we’d form a group so we could -- what do you do when somebody has alcohol poisoning, you know? like a research group for the college. Kind of So that they’d -- if they had problems, they’d come in and say, “Hey, I think 83 �this weed is laced.” I’d look at it and say, “Okay. First of all, it’s mostly seeds or it’s mostly stems,” I said. “But it’s got a powder on there. not mold or anything else. It’s been laced. That’s It’s -- that’s something else.” Sometimes, they laced it with PCP, sometimes, it was something else. that.” And you’d tell them, “You don’t want to do The funniest one I ever had was a guy came in and showed it to me and I said, “That’s not even weed.” said, “What do you mean?” lettuce.” it.” He I said, “No, it’s lettuce, dried He says, “You’re kidding. “No, that’s dried lettuce.” I paid so much for Yeah. So you know, kids [01:34:00] that are on bad trips, helping them down. JJ: So your mind is tame by that time. You’re not anti-war and all that. RR: Well, yeah. JJ: And why does it change? RR: In my head? JJ: Yeah RR: Oh, God. What’s going on in your head? I keep remembering Sister Anne and practicing putting our heads underneath it. The famous incident and I think it was Sister Anne’s room where it happened. doing the drill. sirens. We were The Tuesday drill when they’d run the We’d get underneath the tables, you’d put your heads (covers head with arms), and I started laughing for 84 �some reason or chuckling. And she came over and said, “What’s so funny about this?” JJ: They had that at school or --? RR: Yeah, yeah. And I said, “If those bombs go off, those -- this table is not going to protect (laughs) me from anything.” I said, “I’m going to be instant ash.” said, “What’s funny about that?” practicing?” And she I says, “Then why are we So in my own head [01:35:00] even by eighth grade, I realized that a nuclear attack was not something that was survivable in our neighborhood. just -- it’s sad. It was -- it’s That was really, really sad. But at that point, it was -- I didn’t see the rationa- -- I know why we went to war. And I know why sometimes you have to fight because the environment tells you that. But I wasn’t seeing why we were over there fighting these little guys. They’re not going to paddle across in a canoe and attack us. And I had read by the time I was freshman year in college, I had read the Battle of Dien Bien Phu so I was aware of what had happened and how we had gotten our -- And I’m going, “Why are we doing this? Why are we heading --” And what I saw it as a loss of potential. We were losing these bright young men that were coming back [01:36:00] maimed and dead. And what are we gaining out of this? was a little scary. It So as I go up, the idea of service, 85 �the idea of helping the community, the idea of what is the function of government? I mean, is it to serve or service the people or is it to maintain a structure where they can -- those are two different stories there. I’m going, “Well.” But in the end, If they can’t do for me, I’ve got to do something for myself. So I’m doing what I can to help kids who are on drugs because that seemed logical at the time. And I’m also looking at -- I learned about the 110 rule. And that basically if you’re a minority and you’re going to succeed, you got to do 110 percent what anybody else does. [01:37:00] And I was saying, “How was I going to do 110 percent?” JJ: So where’d you get this from? This (inaudible). RR: Oh, I don’t know where I got it from but -- JJ: Was it a school thing or --? RR: I think it was a part. I think part parents, part neighborhood, part a lot of things that we talked about. But as you go in and suddenly, there are things that change your life like you said. One of the things was that towards the end of my senior year in high school, I was dating this wonderful Polish girl and we talked about it. I said, “Listen, I’ve got four years of college and then we can talk about marriage.” She said it was a good idea. So by the time I was in -- the beginning of sophomore year, we 86 �were talking about two years down the line. And her parents actually took her and moved her out of Chicago down to southern Illinois. JJ: Why was that? RR: And her father [01:38:00] and I had this interesting conversation. I’m still an idiot then, okay? JJ: Okay. (laughs) RR: And she -- he says, “She can’t marry you.” I say, “Why?” “Well, Brown babies will have a horrible time in this world.” JJ: This is her father. RR: Her father talking to me. you talking about?” I said, “Brown babies? What are He said, “Well, if you’re going to get married, you’re going to have kids and you’re one of them.” And in my brain, I’m going, “What is he talking about one of them?” He says, “You’re one of them. those Brown people. And if you and my daughter marry, they’re going to have Brown children. succeed. You’re one of They’ll never They’ll have a horrible time in the world.” And I’m going -- and his mother comes out of the kitchen and starts cursing him out. JJ: She heard him say that. RR: Yeah. She says, “This is a good young man. her.” And that was the last conversation we ever had. He’s good for 87 �Basically what he says, “You’re not welcome here.” JJ: Basically, he kicked you out. RR: Yeah, he kicked you out. her name was [Kathy?]. [01:39:00] Yeah. time. So I said -- I said, “Hey, Kathy. to go to college next year. And -- You’re going So go to college, get a little If you need to leave your parents, you got me. can do it together.” Didn’t work. We So at that point in time, I realized that -JJ: How old were you then? RR: Oh gosh, how old was I? JJ: About 20 years old. RR: Twenty years old. JJ: There’s a lot of changes at that age. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: Life changes. RR: So I -- one of the things was -- JJ: So that affected you strongly. RR: Oh, yeah. Sixty-eight -- about 20 years old. Roughly 20, 21. I’m going -- “I’m going to show you, you son of a bitch.” (laughter) I said, “I’m going to get my degree, and I’m going to do everything that I can be successful, and the hell with you. The world has got to change.” The world was changing and I didn’t even know [01:40:00] it. I mean, I was fighting my own personal battles and the world had already started to change. I mean, Robert F. Kennedy’s 88 �death and Martin Luther King’s death and Fred Hampton’s death. All the people that were dying were changing. Because people were asking why -JJ: You were familiar with Fred Hampton’s death. RR: Oh yeah. JJ: Were you familiar with Reverand Bruce Johnson or Oh yeah. (inaudible)? RR: No. JJ: In the church? RR: No. JJ: They got killed -- RR: No. JJ: -- in the Peoples Church? RR: No. JJ: They were stabbed. RR: No, I didn’t know that. I didn’t know. Did you know? Yeah. See, again, at this point, I’m separating and I’m going -JJ: You’re not in the neighborhood, you’re not (inaudible). RR: I’m not in the neighborhood at all and I’m also -- JJ: How are you familiar with Fred Hampton’s death? RR: It was first made the news. JJ: Well, that one had the trial. RR: Yeah, but even so, the early reports -- and again, [01:41:00] this is the intellectual side of me. I start 89 �reading reports, looking at photographs that they’re showing going, “Uh, that doesn’t jive. all.” It doesn’t jive at And then a lot of the underground newspapers carry information. JJ: Were you reading the Seed? RR: Yeah, well, the Seed was -- there were several other papers, yeah. JJ: But you said you were reading them because you were in the anti-war movement, right? RR: Yeah. And I’m reading about Fred’s death and I’m going, “Holy mackerel. JJ: I didn’t know. This was just basically an assassination.” I was looking for -- I was trying to recruit different people. anti-war movement. RR: Yeah. I didn’t know you were in the It’s like we had been working together. It might’ve been a different world. But at that point, after sophomore year, with the death of Robert F. Kennedy, because I had some hopes politically for this man. JJ: Well, Kennedy was definitely respected by a lot of Latinos. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: Everybody had little posters. RR: He [01:42:00] seemed to have the energy and the promise I thought he had -- that his brother didn’t have. JJ: Did you ever (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RR: No. My parents may have; I didn’t. 90 �JJ: No. RR: But when he was gone, I started looking around going, “They’re going to kill everybody who wants this change to come about.” And I said, “Oh, that’s it. problem and that’s to make it.” I got one And I’d already been told that I can’t make it because I’m a Hispanic, I’ve been -I’d watched good people -- I saw you go to jail for the lumber incident. JJ: Oh, so you mean (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: Oh yeah. JJ: You didn’t know about the good part, only the -- RR: Well, most of that was passed on because again, you have I -- you didn’t stay out of -- the -JJ: I know but what did you -- what did you -- what was your impression? RR: My impression was there was some lumber that was going to be used for something and it was something minor. It was [01:43:00] like -JJ: It was going to be used for something political or --? RR: Political it was -- I didn’t know what it was. JJ: But it was something to do with the church. RR: Yeah, it -- JJ: Actually, it was for the day cares. RR: So and then they were going to arrest you and throw you in But anyway, so you -- 91 �jail for 20 years for what? Less than a hundred dollars worth of lumber? JJ: So that’s the way the conversation went? RR: Yeah. The conversation came through and again, my mother picks it up because she talks to this other Hispanic lady who talked to this Hispanic lady. JJ: So it was through the grapevine. RR: We got most of that through the grape- -- JJ: Made the way on the grapevine. And then they’ll put him in jail and (inaudible) -RR: Yeah, they threw him in jail and this time, they’re going to throw away the key. geez. They’re going to try him and, “Oh, How’s he going to --” And at this point, I would say -JJ: And how did your mother -- your mother because she knew me? RR: Yeah. She was like, “This is terrible.” She saw a lot of -JJ: She did sound like a mother. She sounded like -- RR: Oh, like a ma, yeah. JJ: That that could be my son. RR: Yeah, it could be. JJ: So she acted -- put that in a positive way. I mean, she was supportive. RR: [01:44:00] Oh, yeah. Absolutely. She was hoping that both 92 �of us would be priests. (laughs) And if not, social workers, you know? JJ: She saw me as a victim. RR: In many ways a victim. JJ: Not an aggressor. RR: No, she never saw you as an aggressor ever. JJ: She never? RR: No, no. She never saw you as an aggressor. She felt that you had picked up some back habits along the way. You were drinking too much or something else and -JJ: May I ask you is it just the wine he drinks sometimes? RR: Oh. So and that’s probably -- and but this other stuff. “The lumber,” she says, “But that’s unjust.” JJ: (inaudible) it was too much drinking. RR: Yeah. It was too much -- yeah. Because -- So it was just -- yeah. So it was -JJ: But we were also trying to prove that -- because this was only a couple 2x4s and piece of plywood. giving us the maximum which is a year. us more than a year. And they’re They couldn’t give But they actually -- they were trying to give us more than a year. RR: Yeah, they were trying to give you a whole lot more. JJ: [01:45:00] They were trying to give us like five years. They were trying to say that it was a burglary. And we 93 �said, “No, it was outside.” In other words, there was no - RR: There was no entry into a residence. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) building entrance. we actually had to try that case and we won that case. So lost because I pleaded guilty. and everything. We And then I even (inaudible) I felt guilty at the time. RR: I’ll tell ya -- JJ: But we thought at first, it was a liberating move. thought we were revolutionaries. We We were looking at them bringing wood but when we thought about it analyzed, we said, “No, we didn’t have to do that. We could ask for donations.” RR: But again, the whole point was that -- JJ: But she was a supporter. RR: Oh yeah. JJ: The whole point was what? RR: The whole point was this: that we recognized that change Your mom was a supporter. was needed and no one was doing anything about the change. And then that was [01:46:00] -- at that point -JJ: So you recognize the change was needed and the Young Lords were doing change? RR: The Young Lords were doing change, Fred Hampton was doing change, that whole thing was promising. 94 �JJ: So you were sensing -- RR: Oh yeah. And even though I was distant from it, it was like, “Do I leave what I’m doing now and jump in? I fit in?” Where do And I didn’t see fitting in so I saw my battle was going to be at the academic level. JJ: Right so I’m thinking that I’m making change and I don’t realize when other people around me are not changing, too. But you were changing, too. And we were -- RR: Oh, we were all changing. JJ: The whole community was changing. RR: It did. JJ: Because what you’re saying -- I’m not putting words in your mouth. RR: Yeah, the community -- no, no. The outcome. Even though physically, it looked like failure, it changed how people saw things, it changed how people thought about things. It changed -JJ: What changed? What do you mean, what, the actions I was [01:47:00] taking? RR: You going to jail, Fred Hampton being killed. things. All those You discovered -- JJ: Okay. So that was the nature of the change. RR: All those things. The discovery of the Red Squad, the discovery that, in fact, the Red Squad did exist and that 95 �they did tap phones illegally. Those things slowly but surely began to make people think about what was going on. It didn’t change things magically. The things that were going to change it were -- I -- again, this is my point of view. I’m in college. I’m with Black kids who were struggling just as I am and they’re looking at this and I’m -- we suddenly discover both of us the 110 rule. Okay, so we’re going to be the best chemists, biologists, doctors, lawyers that’s possible. And we’re going to show them that a Black man can do just as much of a job or Hispanic can do as much of a job. I wanted to show that Polish guy the way I’m going to be one of the best whatever it is I chose to be and you missed out. missed out on this. point. (laughs) [01:48:00] Your daughter A very heavy driving force at that Also realizing I was going to be one of the first people to get a degree in my family ever. So at that point right about there, ’68, ’69, I split completely from the politics and just went full-hedge into being really good at being a biologist. JJ: Okay, so now you’re ’68, ’69 was a turning point in your life and you said, “Let me go this way. Let me go to the school and be the best biologist ever.” RR: Yeah. So here in real quick succession, I get out of college, I get my degree. I get a chance to get a 96 �master’s. I pick up on my master’s. During the course of finishing my master’s, I run into a guy by the name of Howard Bern from the University of California at Berkeley. [01:49:00] He thinks I’m really good. actually pays my way out there. interview. I invite -- he I go visit, I have an There’s a guy by the name of Talamantes. got a -- a PhD candidate. He’s He invites me to start my PhD. I finish my work in the spring of ’74, I don’t get my degree until ’75, and then I start -- I go back out. am I going to do?” I’m done so I need to get away. “What I do summer camp for kids from the inner city through Catholic Charities. And I’m looking at kids like you and me except 20 years later. And I’m going, “What am I going to do?” And I talked to Howard and he says, “Yeah, you got two years. You decide. Take two years off and come on by.” Well, somewhere in that span of time, I [01:50:00] needed a job so they sent me to Pilsen. And here I am again. Here’s these -JJ: That’s in the heart of the Mexican community. RR: Yeah, yeah, just outside. JJ: Yeah. RR: I got a Puerto Rican boss. Yeah. And you’re saying you’re there and -And he is telling me how you need to teach, courses I need to take, bla bla bla bla. And suddenly, you hit that stride and go, “I’m in the right 97 �place.” I’m going, “I don’t belong in academia. here working with these kids.” 1985. I belong So from ’74, I came back in Pilsen. In 1985, I started teaching, went right back to And I taught from ’85 to ’93 or ’94 in Pilsen. JJ: You were there 10 years? RR: Yeah, I spent 10 years in there. JJ: And you were teaching what? RR: Teaching any science. JJ: Any science. RR: Yeah. And you were teaching science. So I was teaching [01:51:00] everything. you can do it. can do it. And mostly Forget about whether you’re Mexican; You The whole message that I’d grown up with which is, “You’re here. Use the opportunity. you’re not designed to be baby machines. (inaudible).” Don’t -- ladies, You can be So I got involved with DePaul again doing school on Saturdays at college level for kids in Pilsen. And in ’94, I had my -- in ’90, I had my kid and suddenly realized I had to be a father. JJ: So how many children did you have? RR: One. JJ: You had one? RR: Yeah, I was only given one. JJ: How old is he? RR: He’s 22 now. 98 �JJ: He’s 22. RR: He’s 22. In fact, this year, he’s [01:52:00] a senior in college. So at this point, it’s like, “Wow.” JJ: A senior in college. myself right now. RR: (laughs) I should be ashamed of (laughs) Well, I’m retiring in four years and guess what the plan is? I’m going back to college. JJ: Oh, really? RR: Yeah, there’s a couple things that I need to learn before I go much further. But basically, the reason I got back into it is it played back into my social awareness. Now, I can’t change these kids but I can offer them the opportunity to change, to see a different world. and I got to see it later on. That you But they -- yeah, you’re dirt poor, you don’t have anything, and you think you’re dumb. Number one, you’re not dumb. opportunity. Two, you’ve got the It’s not money, it means take whatever chance comes your way and utilize it to get out of -- because you can’t stay where you’re at. Education is your salvation. JJ: [01:53:00] And you, besides teaching, you had other -- RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: I think that’s important that -- RR: All right. (laughs) So this wonderful program that they had in Pilsen works so well that they cancelled it after one year. 99 �So I went and taught in Catholic schools for two years. After two years in Catholic schools, I got an invitation to do education out of doors through Catholic Charities. So I spent the next -- so it’d be ’76 -- the next four years, three years doing outdoor education with -- yeah. So I was up in -JJ: In camp or --? RR: -- in camps, yeah. So I did Henry Horner occasionally. Very rarely, but which is a Boy Scout camp. Catholic Charities had Saint Francis in Libertyville. Villa Marie out in Pistakee Bay [01:54:00] and Holy Family in Saint Joe. So when schools needed someone to teach kids about the out of doors, they would call me -- I was kind of an administrator of the camp -- so and I would go out there. “We’re going to spend a day in the woods. walk through the woods. Here’s how you you do, get in the dirt.” This is what you eat, this is what A lot of these kids were suburban kids but during summers, I would do inner-city kids. And I just love that. That was a lot of fun, lousy pay, and job security was horrible. So that when the funding was eventually cut and this was about 1979, I hadn’t -- didn’t have a job. a biologist.” So I went back to, “Well, I’m I can’t go back to Bern because the offer has long since dried up. So I applied to Illinois State to 100 �work in a forensic lab because I had all the qualifications. [01:55:00] And they said, “You have all the qualifications but you have no law enforcement experience.” So I joined up with the police force so I was a policeman for one year. That was one of the strangest things that ever happened to me. JJ: So you went to the law sort of -- so a police academy or -? RR: Yeah, I went to police training academy. I was number one, number two in my class. JJ: Okay. RR: So it’s -- it doesn’t take a -- JJ: So a pretty good working person or --? RR: Very good. JJ: (inaudible) (laughs) RR: Oh yeah. JJ: Did you get a (inaudible) for a car? RR: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I don’t know where I got that skill. (laughs) But anyway. So I served one year there and it was -JJ: Now, were you working out of the precinct or --? RR: I was working out of a small town, 10,000 people. JJ: Okay, 10,000 people. RR: It’s sort of like Mayberry, I guess. But it was a good 101 �learning experience. [01:56:00] A lot of stuff I had to relearn. JJ: So you were a regular police officer in a small town. RR: Right. And then I was also an acting detective so I did -- I made robberies and investigations and I guess internal investigations is required. And right at -- right about January of the year after I started, I got a call from the state that says, “We heard,” somebody put me in but anyway, basically what happens. would you like a job?” “We heard you got experience. How And it paid real well so I worked there for four and a half years, five years. I got sick. JJ: This was another place. RR: Yeah, this was the Illinois State Police so I worked for scientific services. And I -- JJ: What was that? What type of work was that? RR: It’s basically, you sit in a lab, you analyze rape kits. Because I hadn’t -- JJ: What? RR: Rape kits, mostly. JJ: [01:57:00] Rape kits. RR: Yeah. Rape kits so you get the little kit. It’s got blood samples in it and then you check to see if it’s got sperm and this and that blood types. all that sort of stuff. And I did hair analysis and But I was -102 �JJ: Now, hair analysis, was that for (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: Comparison hairs. No. It’s like -- JJ: It’s related to the rape cases? RR: Yeah, right, or criminal cases. JJ: Criminal cases. RR: So somebody would break into a store and steal something and they left a drop of blood and some hair. got a suspect. So now they Does the hair match the suspect, blood match? JJ: Okay. So you did that four or five years? RR: Yeah, yeah. I wound up doing a lot of crime scenes because having been a cop and having been an evidence tech, I knew how to do that and I got -- but I started out in -- here in Joliet. So I trained for a year and then there, they sent me to Springfield, Illinois. So I was in Springfield [01:58:00] for a number of years. put me in Maywood crime lab. And I came back and they So at that point, I had an operation that put me on medication stuff and knocked me out. So basically, I had to retire and it took me about six months, nine months to recover. And them at point, I said, “Well, I got to go back to what I was doing. to get back to that teaching.” JJ: I got And right. Okay, now, you were at one point, you were supporting the 103 �Young Lords and the Black Panthers and they don’t see police favorably (inaudible). an activist? But how could you stop being Because you were anti-war activist and then at the same time, you were supportive of the Young Lords and the Black Panthers and that. So how did you -- RR: How did I wind up as a cop? JJ: Right, how did you put that in your head, justify [01:59:00] that in your -- RR: Oh, I don’t know. JJ: Did you even think about it or --? RR: Oh, I never thought about it. When you -- as a cop -- JJ: Because a lot of times, that work in the service and cops - RR: Yeah, because what you do is get out there. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: It’s a community service thing. your head in. That’s not my job. I’m not out there to beat My job is if you got a problem -- I don’t know how many drunks I drove home. JJ: Okay. So you looked at it as community service. RR: Oh yeah. Sent couples in marriage counseling. I mean, you know -JJ: Then you’ve been to college so that people understand it’s -- part of it is it’s a job. RR: It’s a job. My life doesn’t depend on it. So the only 104 �time I’m going to be concerned -JJ: I worry about it because I don’t know who’s going -- I’m worried about it now. RR: Yeah, you pull a gun on me, that’s a different story. JJ: Oh, okay. RR: Oh, absolutely. JJ: Because I’m a great shooter. RR: Hey, only one thought is I want to go home tonight. JJ: I would never do that. If I pulled a gun on you, I’m in trouble. (laughs) I would never do that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -RR: [02:00:00] Oh no, it’s a -- When I was teaching, I had a young man who brought a 22 to school. But it was a starter pistol. A counselor called him down and the counselor saw the gun. Called the parent, the parent came in, took the gun from the kid, gave it to this person. comes up and he calls me down. This person She’s knows I’m an ex-cop. She takes the gun and she -- you’re sitting here. She goes like this (extends arm forward) -- she’s got her finger on the trigger and she’s pointing the damn thing at me. looked at it and it was all reflex. hand. I I just about broke her And she goes, “What the hell was that?” I’m saying, “Never, ever -- I don’t care who you are -- point a gun at anybody and particularly, not me,” you know? away.” “Put it And then when I opened it up, I said, “This is a 105 �starter pistol. surprised. It doesn’t (laughs) even --” And she was [02:01:00] But it -- yeah, now it’s -- that’s - - I mean, how many times did you get shot at, José? I mean, think about it. JJ: A few times. RR: Yeah, I got shot at a couple of times. you get real jumpy. You just kind of -- And then when you get trained in what to do, it’s -- but I lost a lot of friends. I mean, there were people that I had been communicating with for years and suddenly, it’s like I write them or I call them and it’s like, “We’re not available. parties.” No, we’re not having any I said, “Look, like what’s going on here?” And then I was back doing biology which was kind of fun. JJ: So you had the (inaudible). RR: It was. JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: One of my best friends Lewandowski was blown away. could you ever become a cop? did all these things.” “How You went through all -- you I said, “I’m not one of those idiots that’s tossing hand -- gas grenades at you and I don’t want to beat your head in. wearing.” I don’t care what you’re I learned that. [02:02:00] That’s what I’m carrying with me so that’s what makes me good at what I do because I have that experience. I’m not going to make the 106 �same mistakes they made. So that was pretty tough; I took that pretty personally. JJ: I like that you said you could see it as a service. Because I mean in socialized countries or communist countries or whatever, they have no police force. have no police. They (inaudible) -- RR: But they’re used as enforcers, aren’t they? JJ: But some of those countries, yeah, (inaudible). RR: So anyway, in the end, I wound up teaching. JJ: They just got to explain because it’s so strange that program. (laughs) Yeah. (laughs) RR: Man, it was -- JJ: (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah, we wound up in the same place, though, didn’t we? And I think one of the things that’s interesting more than anything else is what a roundabout way. because I’m ending my career now. going to do? See, [02:03:00] And it’s like what am I Well, I don’t know but one of the things is I’d like to work with some people. And then I may wind up just volunteering here and working with some of the kids that need the help. JJ: Yeah, it’s kind of hard to retire. RR: It took me a long time to get used to white-bread America. When I came here, there was probably less than 10 percent 107 �Hispanic and probably less than 15 percent Black. And these were -JJ: And you said you’re here in Joliet. RR: Yeah, in Joliet here in Illinois, yeah. JJ: In Joliet in a high school. RR: In a high school on the west side which is the better side of town. And now, we’re more integrated. one third, one third, one third. It’s more like And what I used to think was that I’m trying to save the Hispanics; I’m trying to give them that opportunity. don’t have to do that. And in here, [02:04:00] I It’s really everyone because you got poor white folk, you got poor Hispanics, and you got poor Blacks. JJ: And the message stays exactly the same. So this was -- used to be like a suburb. But now it’s -- the suburbs are filling up with minorities. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: So far with minorities. There’s that change. In the cities of Chicago, it’s the opposite. RR: Now, you’re starting to have white coming back in. JJ: Right. Yeah. So that they’re running the game thing either way (laughs) from the perspective of the game, right? RR: Well, except that we -- JJ: We moved and went in town, now they’re moving to us. (inaudible) -108 �RR: But we changed the world. JJ: We changed the world. RR: We did. JJ: We’re in the process. RR: Take a look at these kids. Hispanic. They can date Black, White, They don’t run into the problems that we did. They’re now talking about Obamacare as an important issue and life. And we’re still dealing with a lot of the [02:05:00] issues about civil rights. But now, we’re talking about civil rights for everybody. talking about for Blacks. We’re not just I mean Joe, damn. Forty years have changed and we were part of that. You actually had a bigger part than I did but it’s nice. I don’t want to say, “Hey, it’s great. We did it!” No. We’re nowhere near where I’d like to be but it’s a hell of a long walk from where we were. JJ: And you feel that we contributed to it? RR: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don’t -- I mean, think about just the ideas that you put out when the Rainbow Coalition occurred. I always hated the fact that Jesse Jackson stole -JJ: [02:06:00] Stole the leader. RR: Oh yeah, stole the leader. JJ: I think it’s (inaudible) -- Because I tell -- 109 �RR: Oh, it’s cool. But I mean, I’m saying -- JJ: But I don’t think it was the same concept -- RR: No, I don’t think it -- JJ: -- because we actually -- I think he’s trying to go to the Rainbow Coalition but I don’t think he’s been able to get-- RR: He hasn’t gotten the Hispanics in there. JJ: -- the Hispanics in there (inaudible). RR: He hasn’t gotten the poor whites. JJ: But we actually have that. RR: Oh, yeah. JJ: We had a real rainbow coalition. RR: Oh, you did and it was amazing. possible. You did. And the fact that it is The fact that it existed for a while and then went away changed the world. JJ: Yeah. But it was a symbol. really an organization. It was symbolic. It wasn’t It was an alliance of people that were already organized into organizations. And that’s [02:07:00] what was good about it. RR: Yeah, and would we be here today if all those things hadn’t happened? you. I don’t think so and I don’t think it’s just I think it’s all of us contributed a piece. I think -JJ: The whole era (inaudible). RR: Oh yeah. Because if I had gone back to Howard and become a 110 �great biologist, would I have impacted on as many kids? One of these -- last year, I had a wonderful young lady who’s been a real hard worker. many kids have you taught?” about that.” And the question was, “How And I said, “Let me think And it comes out to several thousand. If it’s several thousand, let’s say it’s 5,000, and I only influence one percent, that’s 50 kids. JJ: Right. That’s a lot. RR: It’s a lot. It’s a whole lot. [02:08:00] And that’s one thing that I don’t know how many -- I don’t know how many half-dozen, ten teachers I trained to become teachers. What did I teach them? The first important thing is listen to your students. Where did it come from? to bring them up? It’s not -- you’re either a natural teacher or you’re not. What can you do You were a natural teacher. It took me years to get and learn some of the things that you had. Which was the charisma, the facility with people. I’ve never been terribly people-oriented. JJ: You learn it from the intellectuals. RR: That’s why we made such a great team early on and I think we recognized that. roads to travel. But it was just -- we had different My wife -- I love what she says. on this road for a reason. JJ: (laughs) “You’re You may never know what it is.” What’s your wife’s name? 111 �RR: [Mary Beth?]. JJ: Mary Beth. RR: Good Polish-Italian girl. JJ: Oh, is she? RR: Yeah. JJ: [02:09:00] So you married the neighborhood. RR: Well, yeah. JJ: Congratulations. RR: Yeah. JJ: How many years have you been married? RR: Thirty-one, 32. (laughs) Yeah. Congratulations. oldest. I’m surprised we’re still married because I’m -- Yeah, yeah. John Glaw and I are the John got married when he was 20 -- 20 years old. And he is one year younger than me, so he is 63. So he’s been married 43 years. JJ: Hmm. RR: So it’s -- it’s amazing. JJ: Do you see some of the people from your neighborhood sometimes or --? RR: Very rarely now because a lot of them -- do you remember a girl by the name of [Baldassano, Carolyn?]? JJ: Yeah, I remember her. RR: She just passed away two weeks ago. JJ: Oh. RR: Yeah. Carolyn had a massive heart attack and died and I 112 �hadn’t seen her for a long time -JJ: Does she live in Chicago? RR: She’s out somewhere in the ‘burbs. JJ: In the ‘burbs? RR: Yeah. [02:10:00] There was a girl by the name of [Nancy Roseman?]. Do you remember Nancy? Lived right across the street from school. JJ: I think so. RR: Skinny little thing. (raises hand) Yeah. She and I had been buddies for years and she told me about Carolyn. And she said, “Oh, you got -- you and Carolyn,” because we were in the same class. JJ: She lives in the suburbs, too, now? RR: Yeah, she was -- she moved out there 20 -- JJ: Now, these are people that were later on. You weren’t dating in DePaul because that was a -RR: No, these are all neighborhood people. JJ: You still kept (inaudible) -- RR: Yeah, occasionally through my sister, [Rosie?]. JJ: Oh. RR: Because she still lives there. JJ: She still lives in Lincoln Park? RR: Yeah. JJ: Okay, now, is Rosie the one that’s married to -- She’s on -- what street is that? Seminary. 113 �RR: [Lechaise?]. JJ: Lechaise? RR: Yeah, Lechaise. JJ: Lechaise. RR: Yeah, (inaudible) drug store. JJ: Lechaise. Yeah. And it’s such a crazy (inaudible) interview (inaudible). RR: Oh, God. Good [02:11:00] luck. JJ: (laughs) Good luck. RR: Yeah. JJ: Well, at least -- RR: There’s old -- there’s lots of history. JJ: She can probably give me some -- RR: Oh, yeah. Rosie or [Doug?]? She can probably give you -- she stayed into a lot of -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I should interview her more to meet her husband -- RR: Yeah. And then -- what? JJ: But anyways, (inaudible). RR: Yeah, I understand. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: Yeah, so yeah. It doesn’t matter. This is -- Yeah. There’s a lot of -- they can give you a lot more pre-history because they lived there forever. JJ: Right, because they were there -- but I mean, you’re giving 114 �me the same history that I’m trying to find out the people that were there before the Latinos moved in. And then I have to do some of the (inaudible) to just -- to tell us what -- how the community changed as a result of (inaudible). RR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. RR: Thought? JJ: What do you think -- what do you think -- what was really So what -- any final -- important things about Lincoln Park that we need to tell [02:12:00] your students and other students for the future? That they should know of? RR: I mean lessons, I mean lessons. In the end, I think one of the lessons that we could’ve learned -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RR: -- and it was that we could’ve had a very diverse community with a lot of contributing people because there was a lot of intelligent, smart, energetic people. were really successful. A lot of them Not in terms of money, necessarily, but in terms of being people and influencing. I don’t think I would have grown up -- if I ever grew up -to be where I’m at if I hadn’t had the opportunity [02:13:00] of growing up in there. important. I think that was really So in terms of a grand statement, it was a good 115 �place to grow up, but not necessarily for the reasons most people would think. It made us deal with stuff that normal people wouldn’t consider normal. But it also made us look at our world in a different way. I mean, you got McCormick Theological Seminary there, you got a university, you’ve got poor folks of the poorest kind, of all kinds there, you got transitionals. the Chinese say? It was an interesting time. “May you grow up in (inaudible)?” Underneath, it says, “This is a curse.” JJ: Oh. RR: Yeah. What do (laughs) (laughs) So I think we grew up in interesting times and it made us who we are. I’d love to see the world change for the better, though. (laughs) END OF VIDEO FILE 116 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8d1c07d1a01a3ab3b2325ff3994172e.mp4 ee51f0b36d0810da819fcded3f4bba81 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ricardo Rebollar vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Ricardo Rebollar es hijo de una de las primeras familias Mexicanas que vivieron en Lincoln Park, en las calles de Sheffield y Clybourn, por más que 30 años. Después que José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez se encontró en problemas en Newberry Elemntary School, su mama lo saco de la escuela y lo inscribió en escuela Católica de St. Teresa. Señor Rebollar era uno de los pocos latinos en la escuela y porque estaban en la misma clase se hicieron mejores amigos. Se pasaban los días hablando antes y después de la escuela y querían ir al seminario y luego ordenarse sacerdote porque sentían que era la única forma que podían ayudar su gente. Señor Rebollar recuerda que juagaron juntos en equipos de softbol y otros deportes. También recuerda que los padres de su novia tuvieron más tiempo en aceptarlo por su origen nacional. Y como en esos días podía caminar por las calles de Lincoln Park sin temor porque los Young Lords sabían que era amigo de Jiménez. Señor Rebollar atendió McCormick Theoligal Seminary’s Occupation y la escuela de St. Vincet DePaul High School en donde Afro-Americanos (quien eran apoyados por Young Lords) tomaron la escuela. Señor Rebollar y Señor Jiménez no llegaron a ordenarse. Rebollar primero fue un policía y dice que “era un tirador experto.” Ahora es un maestro en la escuela de Joliet West High en Illinois. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexicano-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Jiménez, José, 1948- Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rebollar_Ricardo Title A name given to the resource Ricardo Rebollar video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebollar, Ricardo Description An account of the resource Ricardo Rebollar is from one of the first Mexican families to live in Lincoln Park, settling around Sheffield and Clybourn Streets and remaining there more than 30 years. Mr. Rebollar attended school with Young Lords founder José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Mr. Rebollar was of the few Latinos in the school and in his class and they became very close friends. He recalls the days that Lincoln Park turned more Puerto Rican and Latino and describes how he felt safe when he walked the area of Lincoln Park because the Young Lords. Mr. Rebollar first became a law enforcement officer and later became a teacher for the Chicago school system. He currently teaches science at Joliet West High School in Illinois. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f53ca79a48a41e3dcab3a99127807a75.pdf 8931847ead2676679cd8d1a268a8df54 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carmen Rance Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/30/2012 Biography and Description When Carmen F. Rance’s family first came to Chicago from Puerto Rico, she lived at the Water Hotel then moved to Lincoln Park where she grew up. She joined the Young Lords through the Breakfast for Children Program, waking up early morning after morning and volunteering to cook home-style meals for elementary school children before they attended school in the mornings. Her family owned a large apartment building on the corner of Clifton and Armitage Avenue where many other Puerto Rican families lived. There was a storefront downstairs where bands played and held parties. Her family was active with Council Number 9 of the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María, at St. Teresa’s Church. St. Teresa’s had a separate hall that was used by the Caballeros and Damas to throw larger dances, weddings and other events. Ms. Rance recalls how St. Teresa’s became a major focal point for the Puerto Rican community at a time when the community was growing rapidly and spreading beyond the neighborhood dividing line of Ashland Avenue. Groups like the Young Lords, Black Eagles, Paragons, Flaming Arrows, Imperial Aces and Queens, Continentals, Latin Eagles from Addison and Halsted, Latin Angels from Humbolt Park, and the original Latin Kings from Wicker Park would all come to the wellorganized, safe dances run by the Damas and Caballeros at the church. There were few fights but always lots of competition on the dance floor. Today Ms. Rance works as a case manager and has been a lay leader in the San Lucas United Church of Christ for many years. That church also has a long history of �community activism through leaders like Peter Early, Rev. María Lourdes Porrata, and Rev. Jorge Morales. Together, they created the West Town Concerned Citizens’ Coalition, which has rallied against police brutality, hunger, and promoted affordable housing. The church runs various programs including a food pantry. On September 23rd, 2008, the Young Lords celebrated their 40th Anniversary at the church. �Transcript CARMEN RANCE: Because when we -- I was part of the Young Lords, and we did, and we did that and then people sit there and they -(break in audio) JOSE JIMENEZ: CR: Okay. Say what is, you know, your name and -- My name is Carmen Flores Rance and raised in Lincoln Park, you could say. But no, a Chicago resident. Didn’t move too far from the neighborhood. So I don’t know anyone. Ask me question? JJ: Were you born -- you were born here? CR: I was not born here. I was born in Puerto Rico. I came here when I was five years old, and my sister was six years old. And we -- when we first came here from Puerto Rico, we stopped at La Salle and Superior and we lived there at La Salle and Superior. It was a Puerto Rican -- there was quite a few Puerto Ricans around there. And -- JJ: What year was this? CR: This would have been ’56, ’57 that I came [00:01:00] because I was five and my sister was six. And that’s when the fun started. So we were there like maybe five years. JJ: And you were how old at that time? CR: I was -- when we moved out to, you could say Lincoln Park, because I consider Larrabee -- I don’t know what community was that, was Lincoln Park. We moved 1 �from there. We were there for like six years. But we lived in a very small apartment. JJ: Back on La Salle and Superior? CR: On La Salle and Superior. We lived in a third floor -- JJ: So how old were you then when you came to -- CR: Five. But we went straight there. We lived -- JJ: What do you remember there? CR: There was -- the few Puerto Ricans that were there -- I mean, it was Puerto Ricans, but you know, I was small. So I remember my mother and my father and my brother. The Puerto Ricans that lived in the building, there used to be a beauty shop there, it was Clara’s -- I don’t know if anybody remembers Clara Byron. Clara Byron owned [00:02:00] that beauty shop on the first floor. She used to do hair. JJ: You don’t remember the address -- CR: Well, it would have been Superior. Seven -- could have been 700 West and Superior. JJ: Back in the corner was the -- CR: Right on the corner -- no, the beauty shop was in the first floor, we lived on the third floor. So it was the building on that corner on the south and it was on the west side of the street. JJ: Okay. Kitty-corner to where to Catholic Charities is today? CR: Right. And that wasn’t Catholic Charities. That used to be an orphanage. Wasn’t that an orphanage in the late ’50s, early ’60s? 2 �JJ: Yeah I’m not sure -- I’m not sure when. CR: Yeah it used to be an orphanage and then Catholic Charities took it over. For everybody does not remember that there used to be an orphanage there and then across the street from this flower shop. JJ: Because you lived right across the street from the flower shop. It still exists. CR: Yes. So we had to cross [00:03:00] to get to -- on the other side of the street. JJ: Okay and so there was a business there you said? A -- CR: A beautician there, she ran a beauty shop there. JJ: Any other businesses that you remember? CR: That I remember, if you went on Clark Street, Clark and Superior, then you saw some of the Spanish stores. But I was kind of little, so I don’t remember. But I know there was a Spanish store there. There used to be one. There used to be a theater there too. I forgot the name of that theater, but it was on Chicago Avenue between Clark and Superior. It was a neighborhood theater and there used to be a Spanish store. JJ: Did you all go to that theater? CR: I used to go to that theater. I think now it was strip joint. JJ: They saying [el meaito?] -- CR: [El meaito?]. (chuckles) See, [el meaito?]. See I was right I remembered that was. And we used to go there and see the movies. It was a little dinky little place, but it was a -- now it’s a strip joint. It was I think a strip joint. And there was a [00:04:00] Spanish store, and they used to sell Spanish products and stuff. And then a little bit further down was Holy Name Cathedral. And we were part of 3 �-- we could go to catechism there. I remember Las Hijas de Maria. They would teach the catechism class. If you remember Carmen Travieso was my catechism teacher. JJ: Carmen Travieso. CR: Carmen Travieso. And it was a big Puerto Rican church. It was a lot of -- I think that we had mass there, but we were very involved. Las Hijas de Maria y Los Caballeros de San Juan. They were very involved. JJ: And this was ’56? 1956? CR: No it would be ’56, ’57, ’58. Because we went there for a couple of years. Then from there we moved to -- JJ: Okay. Where did you move to? CR: 1714 North Larrabee. JJ: Okay, 1714 Larrabee. By Willow? [00:05:00] CR: Or what was that? Where was Saint Michael’s at? Sedgwick? JJ: I think that was Willow and Wisconsin. CR: Wisconsin. It was Wisconsin. Wisconsin and Larrabee. JJ: Or Menomonee? Was there another street called Menomonee? CR: There was a Menomonee there, but I can’t rem-- Mohawk. I remember Mohawk. But we were on Larrabee. The 1700 block. JJ: So you went from going to mass at the Holy Name Cathedral then you were going to Saint Michaels? 4 �CR: Then we went to Saint Michaels. And there, we had a mass on Sunday. There was a big -- it used to be a big community there. Because people would come from all over to go to church at Saint Michaels. JJ: When you say big community, are you talking about Puerto Ricans? CR: The people -- yeah the Puerto Ricans that lived there plus the Puerto Ricans that came. And I’m gonna say that they came from down North Avenue and probably on North Avenue there was a lot of Puerto Ricans. There was a lot of Puerto Ricans in Cabrini, and I believe that they also went to Saint Michaels. So I don’t remember the crowd, but it was a lot [00:06:00] of Latino, lot of Puerto Rican families there. JJ: So it was a big center at that time, Saint Michael’s. CR: Big center. And I’m trying to remember, Father Headley? Do you remember the Father Headley from -- and other Headley was very (inaudible) to the Puerto Rican, (Spanish), [00:06:16] spoke fluent Spanish. JJ: Father Kathrein. CR: Father Kathrein, that’s right. I forgot about him. He was there too for -- was Father Headley from Saint Teresa’s? JJ: Our Immaculate Conception had mass too, I believe. Immaculate on North Park? Immaculate Conception. CR: Oh yes. I remember Immaculate Conception, but I really didn’t hang out there. My brother did. JJ: I wonder if it was Father [Reem?] or something like that. But I mean, that’s what I remember. I just want to know what you remember in terms of that. So -- 5 �CR: I remember -- JJ: So what was Saint Michael’s like? CR: Do you remember the Continentals from Immaculate Conception? They used to hang out at the Immaculate Conception church. And they would throw parties there. [00:07:00] JJ: Right. I remember that. CR: Vaguely I remember. My mother wouldn’t let us go out. Carlos got to go out but not us. And they used to wear the pink sweaters with the big C. Was it pink or red? JJ: The pink stripe was the Paragons. CR: The Paragons? No, but the Continentals -- JJ: Continentals I think had -- they were red, white, and blue I believe the -- but I think they were light blue, and then (inaudible) was a red stripe or something like that. CR: Okay. But we didn’t go out. We didn’t go out because my mother wouldn’t let us out. JJ: But you -- we were talking about a lot of youth at that time with different color sweaters. Is that what you’re talking about? CR: Yeah. JJ: Or am I putting words in your mouth? CR: No, I’m not. The Paragons. Give me some other names. The Continental. JJ: The Black Eagles. CR: The Black Eagles. 6 �JJ: Flaming Arrows. CR: Yeah. JJ: Imperial Aces and Queens. I don’t even think -- CR: All them people. JJ: Youth. CR: And weren’t they mostly Puerto Ricans? JJ: Right. They were mostly Puerto Rican. Now were these the gangs that you [00:08:00] call gangs today? Or -- CR: What you call gangs today but not with the violence piece. I think they just used to throw parties and hang out. But fighting and doing -- I didn’t see too much of that. It was more like having parties and meeting. That’s what I remember but my mother would not let us out. So I really didn’t know what’s going on. I just used to see them, so. JJ: So but you saw them at mass too, right? CR: They would come to church. I’m not gonna say all of them came to church but their families would come to church. And it was Puerto Rican families. JJ: What families do you remember coming to church? CR: Oh god. I remember the Lugos that lived in Cabrini-Green. What was the -Almestica, Almestica? Rosalia Almestica? Do you remember Rosalia Almestica? Rosalia y Roberto [00:09:00] at the -- who was the other family? There was a Puerto Rican family that lived in the projects. The first projects that were built which was Cabrini which would have been like 1000 North on Larrabee. And there was a Puerto Rican -- was a Black Puerto Rican family and 7 �those people we knew from when we first came from Puerto Rico. They were my father’s friends. And they welcomed us to their house and then they ended up moving into the projects. I mean those were beautiful projects and they lived on - and I never forget they lived on the 16th floor of the projects of the first CabriniGreen projects. And then when the projects started deteriorating. The elevators were broken. People had to walk up and down them stairs. And one day, one of his daughters got raped by thirteen Black boys in the elevator. She ended up having a, pregnant. They didn’t want to give her an abortion. [00:10:00] And the family moved out. That I remember. I remember the [Berrios?]. Joe Berrios family lived in the projects. The Lugos lived in the projects. JJ: When you say the Berrios and Lugos. What is that just one family? Or -- CR: These were different families with a lot of kids. They were Puerto Ricans with a lot of kids. So it was at least six kids in each -- in their family. Almestica, they had six. I’m trying to remember what was the -- Rosalia, Roberto, [Blitson?]. Because Blitson ended up moving with us on Armitage. No, they moved on Halsted and Dickens. They own property on Halsted and Dickens, that family that I was talking about. They ended up moving out of the Cabrini Projects when their daughter was raped. And she had the baby. And her mother did not want that baby. So this [00:11:00] girl was 12, 13 years old and she had a baby. And the baby was never -- they gave it up for adoption. We never found out what happened to that baby to this day. JJ: So now this is a Puerto Rican family. Their daughter gets raped by Black kids. CR: In those projects. 8 �JJ: In those projects. Was there -- did that create any rift between the community and -- CR: No, I think the family moved out. I don’t know what happened after that. And the kids did not get charged because they were minors. And no proof. JJ: So you said it started deteriorating. About what years did the deterioration start? CR: I’m gonna say ’60 -- maybe ’65? I can’t remember when Cabrini was built but ’65, between ’65 and ’69, that’s when we kind of moved -- I think we moved out around ’68 to Armitage. JJ: Oh you were living there too? CR: No, I mean not in [00:12:00] the projects. We were living down the street. JJ: Down the street. CR: Yeah so the pro-- those first projects was like 1100 North on Larrabee, and we were 14 or 1700 North on Larrabee. So we were like on the other side of North Avenue. And there used to be a -- oh the Peñas. I don’t know if you remember Paulina Peña and their family. That was a big family, and we knew them from Puerto Rico, and they lived on North Avenue. 900 West on North Avenue. And they were very close to -- JJ: So they were from Guayama? CR: They were from Arroyo. JJ: From Arroyo. And you knew them from there? CR: And so -- JJ: So what other towns were you representing? 9 �CR: Guayama, Arroyo, Humacao, Mayagüez, Bayamón. So -- and we ended up meeting that family -- the Peñas were a very big family. It was like about seven or eight of them. And their kids are still around, and they live -- they were living there first than we were. [00:13:00] They were living there first then we were. That Puerto Rican family we knew. There used to a Five-and-Ten Cent Store on North Avenue and Menomonee? Or Mohawk? JJ: Near there. It was near Larrabee. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. CR: Remember that Five-and-Ten Cent Store? JJ: With the counter and everything like that. CR: Yeah that people would come -- Woolworths. There was a Woolworths. JJ: Woolworths, yeah. CR: There used to be counter where people would come there and eat. I remember that. JJ: So you were living right around there. That section near there. And so that’s North Avenue. So how was North Avenue in terms of Latinos at that time? CR: There was lot of Puerto Rican families living there. Especially down North Avenue between I’m gonna say Clark all the way down to past Halsted was all Puerto Rican families. And Larrabee too. All of Larrabee and Mohawk. The Garcias -- Myrna and Gladys Garcia’s family lived there. [00:14:00] My godmother lived there. They lived down Mohawk. JJ: What were her name? 10 �CR: [Masimina?] y Don Pedro. That was my uncle -- I mean my godmother and my godfather. And that was -- that whole building was a Puerto Rican family. And then they ended up moving on Armitage. That’s how I remember that one. JJ: So you had people living from Park and North Avenue all the way to Halsted you said. CR: Right. So there was Puerto Ricans all the way starting I’m going to say Clark, we could say La Salle. There was a lot of Puerto Ricans living around there. And they followed -- everyone followed each other. There was a lot of them living like I said on North Avenue and then Larrabee and then it just kept -- Willow -- Burling -- Halsted. What’s the other street? Dayton, [00:15:00] Orchard. Orchard had -Luis Gutiérrez uncle and aunt lived on Orchard. I lived on Orchard after I got married. Well not get married but after my older days. JJ: And Congressman Luis Gutiérrez. CR: Right. His family lived on Orchard. Believe it was this. And then I remember talking about El Congreso, that was on North Avenue and Larrabee and Caribe. JJ: And what did they -- CR: They used to have dancing. There was dancing and it was the baseball league. El Puerto Boricua I think it was the name. Puerto Boricua. And they used to have really, you know, just family gatherings and -- JJ: So Puerto Boricua was a different organization, or they were connected with the Congreso is that what you’re saying? CR: They -- it was a baseball league. It wasn’t part of the church. It was just a baseball league that they would have dances and people would come there and 11 �meet. I guess all the Puerto Ricans [00:16:00] that came from Puerto Rico, I guess everyone would meet there. And I remember as a little girl going there with my parents to the dances. So -- and it was a lot of Puerto Ricans. JJ: Puerto Boricua is a veteran’s organization or? CR: It was. It did have the veteran’s thing, but I don’t know what it stood for. I can’t remember. JJ: (inaudible) I think it was a VFW. CR: VFW or VFM post. JJ: But it was all Puerto Rican. CR: All Puerto Ricans. Because my father used to be a -- JJ: I forgot where they were located. You don’t remember or? CR: They -- that -- there was -- okay, let me see. It was two of them. There was one, you know what I can’t remember. But it was more than one. One was on Ogden I think, Ogden and -- JJ: Chicago Avenue? CR: Maybe Chicago Avenue? That was number two. So we would exchange [00:17:00] and go to different parties there. And then there was a lot of Puerto Rican families around Milwaukee and Grand and Chicago Avenue, Ashland. JJ: So could this have been like part of the same community but in different like pockets or? Because I know you were talking about La Salle and Superior and now you’re talking about Chicago Avenue and Grand. CR: Right because some of -- a lot of the families started moving more north. 12 �JJ: So they were moving more north. And looks like they were moving more west too. CR: Mm-hmm. JJ: I mean pockets at least. CR: Pockets of them, but you know, couldn’t keep up with them. JJ: Because in between you had -- what were some of the buildings in between? What kind of businesses? CR: There used to be the Spanish store, the bodega, La Bodega, the stores. I can’t -I was kind of small at that time, but I think it was [00:18:00] the stores. The Spanish stores I remember. JJ: What was that a downtown or was it a industrial area or what kind of area was it? CR: It was just buildings. It could have -- just buildings. I don’t think there was an industrial area, no. Just -- JJ: Putting words. (chuckles) CR: No, I’m just trying to remember. Every time you talk, I’m just like remember the houses around there. You know, third floor, fourth floor, fifth floor. I mean walking North Avenue. But we weren’t that far. We were just -- JJ: Oh so they were tall buildings. CR: It was tall buildings. Not, you know, row houses or like that. JJ: Where’d everybody stay? How -- what did it look like -- CR: Oh my god. We lived -- okay, going back to Larrabee, if we were on Superior. Superior and La Salle, it was a three-room house. And it was my father, my mother, me and my sister, my brother. And then, you know, Puerto Ricans tend 13 �to bring their aunts and their uncles to live with them, the sisters and stuff. So it was [00:19:00] my uncle and my aunt. We all lived in a one, two, three room apartment. That was a three room apartment. So my bedroom, me and my sister’s bedroom was in the kitchen. We had bunk beds. And I can’t remember the other rooms. It was a very small apartment, but we all lived there for many years. JJ: And where did you play? Or did you go out or? I mean, I don’t know what those -- CR: I don’t know where we played -- JJ: -- the guys go out. CR: My mother wouldn’t let us out. When we were on Superior and La Salle, we very rarely went out. We would be in the house. And if we did, it would be around the neighborhood, and we would probably hang out in the beauty shop that was downstairs. We would hang out there. But of going out to play, I can’t remember. Just going to school, you know, and I went to Ogden. [00:20:00] JJ: Okay, you went to Ogden. CR: Ogden School. JJ: What do you remember about Ogden? CR: I remember about Ogden was that we did not speak English. So me and my sister were put in the same classroom and my sister had already started school in Puerto Rico. So when she came here, they put both of us in a classroom. I believe we were maybe first grade. And I think they forgot about us. They didn’t know that we were there. Because they never spoke to us. And at that time, 14 �again I would say my name is not Carmen. My name is Camila. They didn’t know how to pronounce my name, so they changed it to Carmen. My sister’s name was Mina. They changed it to Myrna. And then we had to learn Spanish in the -- you know, I mean English in the street. Learn it little by little until you got it. But of them having bilingual education to teach us, none of that. So it was very hard. It was a very -- it was not a good time for us. [00:21:00] And we always wanted to go back to Puerto Rico. Because I believe we came in the middle of winter, and we were not dressed properly for the weather. And it was very cold, I remember that. And we always used to cry and tell our mother that we wanted to go back to Puerto Rico with our family. And we couldn’t. So that was the starting of our life in Chicago. JJ: And actually, your parents, were they planning to come to stay here or? CR: I believe they were. My father came first. And I believe my father came to pick cucumbers and tomatoes in Connecticut. He went to Connecticut, and it was the time of the -- el Muñoz Marín, they had that bootstrap. And I believe the churches were the one that paid his airfare to go and work in those fields. So and I didn’t even know this until years later. My father was a migrant worker. He came here to work. And then I guess he didn’t like it over there in Connecticut and he ended up coming [00:22:00] to Chicago. And I believe some of his friends that he knew in Puerto Rico took him in which I think was the Peñas and the Almestica and the -- I can’t remember the last -- the family. Found a job at Western Electric and that’s where he retired from. Like the next 30 years, he worked at Western Electric. 15 �JJ: That was a pretty good job. CR: At that time. JJ: Did they have other Latinos working? CR: There was a lot of Latinos working there. Blacks too. JJ: Western Electric. CR: Yeah. Western was well known. You had Western Electric, you had -- oh my god what was the factories that were around there? On Clybourn? Remember the factories on Clybourn? There was a lot of Puerto Ricans -- JJ: Seeburg was there. CR: See-- yeah. JJ: OH MetalCraft. CR: MetalCraft was very well known. I remember those. JJ: Midwest Coil and Transformer was another one in Halsted. CR: Okay. JJ: Yeah because that’s -- [00:23:00] I knew there was a lot of factories at that time. CR: Right, but you know Western Electric was like on 35th or something and Cicero? JJ: (inaudible) was south, yeah. CR: It was south. So my father -- I used to remember my father every morning he’d get up at three in the morning. Wait for the bus, take the bus -- and he didn’t have a car, my father did not drive. So he had to depend on the bus to take him and bring him back to work. I remember the blizzard of ’69 that the whole city of Chicago was in a standstill because there was no busses running. The snow was I don’t know how high the snow was. And he couldn’t come home so he was 16 �like stuck out there for like three or four days. I remember that. We were out of school because everything was just totally dead. Nobody moved. JJ: And you were in school in Ogden at that time? CR: At that time, well the snow wasn’t -- when I was on Larrabee but during -- at Ogden, I graduated from Ogden. And I’m sorry [00:24:00] I take that back. It wasn’t Ogden. I ended up -- from Ogden I ended up in La Salle. When we moved to Larrabee, then I went to La Salle. JJ: La Salle was on Sedgwick or? CR: Sedgwick and Menomonee? Or that was -- so Ogden was my first school when I came here from Puerto Rico. Then when we moved to Larrabee, then I started going to La Salle. We did go to Newberry but then for some reason we got transferred out and ended up in La Salle. So I ended up graduating from La Salle. And that was in ’65, 1965. JJ: From eighth grade? CR: From eighth grade. JJ: Okay. And there was just elementary, just kind of routine elementary. CR: Yeah, routine. JJ: Anything exciting at La Salle? CR: Not that I remember. There was a lot of Latinos. I can’t remember the names and when we graduated, everybody took a different path. Some went to Tuley. Some went to Lake View. [00:25:00] Some went -- I don’t know if Wells was around. I can’t remember if Wells was around. Some went to Saint Michael’s. 17 �But we couldn’t afford Saint Michael’s, so we didn’t go to Saint Michael’s. We ended up going Waller. Which is now Lincoln Park. JJ: Lincoln Park High. CR: Lincoln Park High School. JJ: But you went to -- did you go to Saint Joseph’s at all? CR: I went to Saint Joseph for the catechism and just -- but not for school. We couldn’t afford to go to a Catholic school. JJ: Okay. So you went for the catechism? CR: Catechism and maybe -- JJ: And where’d you did your communion? Where did you -- CR: My communion was Saint Michael’s. JJ: Saint Michael’s. CR: Because Saint Joseph I believe was on Orleans, right? And Chicago? JJ: Right, right. So you were at Saint Michael’s, you were going to Spanish mass [00:26:00] in the big chapel and everything. CR: Beautiful. Beautiful church. And then they moved out. They stopped the Spanish churches -- they didn’t stop the service, they just moved it to a smaller -they moved it to the hall. And then from the hall -- it was shrinking. They moved it to the rectory, in the basement of the rectory. Until one day they just stopped. JJ: So they started at the big chapel? CR: They started in the church. And from the church they went to the hall which was Saint Michael’s high school. JJ: So were they advanced -- was that an advancement or? 18 �CR: No I think it was a deterioration of the community changing. JJ: So the community was changing so, less -- CR: The shrinking. Less people so they didn’t need that whole mass. You remember Saint Michael’s. That was a humongous church. JJ: Well I remember a humongous church but when I was looking at some of the documents there was not much record of Spanish people going to -- attending that church. [00:27:00] CR: But there was. JJ: So you’re saying it was a humongous -- CR: It used -- at one time it was a service where half the church was filled. And then as people started moving, it just kept shrinking and shrinking and I guess they justified -- JJ: Half the church was filled of Spanish people? CR: Of Spanish people. Everything was in Spanish. The music was in Spanish. The priest -- JJ: And apparently they didn’t make enough noise because in that there’s no record of that. CR: There’s not? Okay. JJ: I mean I was looking at some -- CR: Probably it was intention. JJ: No, what I’m asking -- I guess what I’m trying to ask is, to you there was a big congregation? 19 �CR: I believe it was a big congregation. And there was weddings there. There was, god let me see if I remember when I was a little girl. They used to have communion there. The -- there was a lot of activities. But I guess it’s not -- JJ: Well what kind of activities? I mean you said weddings and -- CR: Weddings, parties, they would do Mother’s Day party [00:28:00] for Mother’s Day. They would do an Easter party. Christmas. They would do Los Reyes. JJ: Los Reyes? CR: They would do Los Reyes. JJ: You mean the parranda? CR: (Spanish) [00:28:12] JJ: And you said that there was an Easter, right? Were you there that -- there was a play I believe that they used to do. CR: They used to do the plays, but I don’t -- I remember them, but I just wasn’t real involved. But like I said it was an activity where there was a lot of Puerto Ricans there. There was a lot. So there was a lot, you know everybody spoke the same language. The food was eaten. The people got together. JJ: And in fact, the Puerto Rican Congress was not that far away from Saint Michael’s. CR: No it was like two miles. JJ: So that was like a center at that time for Puerto Ricans. CR: Right. The Congress which was on North Avenue there in Larrabee. JJ: And (inaudible) and all that, all the different vans and that. And the [polls?] [00:29:00] you said that (inaudible). 20 �CR: And the baseball leagues. JJ: What do you mean the baseball leagues? CR: You know there used to be baseball played at Lincoln Park. You know that we had a lot of Puerto Rican not -- we did not play in Humboldt Park. We played -or my father had -- he was a manager of the baseball league. He played in Lincoln Park. And the other park -- there was another park. Was it Garfield? JJ: On the southside? CR: On the southside -- the Puerto Ricans played there. And I remember there was a riot. There was a riot that broke out -- a baseball riot. In Garfield Park. JJ: In Garfield Park? CR: Between the -- I don’t know what -- who it was, but I know it was Puerto Ricans and maybe Black or was it White? I can’t remember. But I remember that riot. And then there was Garfield. But not in -- Lincoln Park, we played baseball there. So like North Avenue -- North Avenue and Lincoln Park. [00:30:00] North Avenue and Lincoln Park. JJ: North Avenue and Lincoln Park by the VFW? CR: That you had to go walk over the bridge. They used to play baseball there. JJ: And a lot of people used to show up? CR: Oh my god it was -- and they used to sell food. JJ: What kind of food? CR: Well you know it was so funny because I was talking to my brother and my brother was telling me that there used to be a hotdog stand or a food stand over the bridge to -- you know when you had to go over the bridge, so it was Lake 21 �Shore Drive. So there used to be a little stand there and people would buy ice cream, popcorn, and stuff. So this guy -- this Puerto Rican guy started making sandwiches. And his business got so big, and my brother was telling me that he just recently -- he interviewed him about how the business, how he made the business. And he started making sandwiches. So people would buy sandwiches from this guy, and he would sell it out of the trunk of his car. So that I remember. I don’t remember it too clear, but I remember that we used to buy ice cream and pop and hotdogs there. [00:31:00] But when this guy started making his own sandwiches and people would come and get from him instead of getting it from the park. JJ: And did they raise -- how did they raise money? CR: Well you had the beautiful baseball league, and I guess they had dues, and they used to wear beautiful uniforms. I remember the uniforms. Beautiful outfits. And when they had the leagues, and I believe there was leagues that would come from Puerto Rico to play baseball there. I mean it was very popular. Very popular. JJ: Were these well-organized? CR: Very well organized. Managers and everything. Because you had El Congreso and you had El Puerto Boricua, so it was a big, big baseball leagues. And so they played at Lincoln Park, and they played at Garfield Park. JJ: You don’t recall them playing at Humboldt park at that time? CR: No. That one I don’t remember. I remember Garfield and Lincoln. [00:32:00] 22 �JJ: Now, they had -- did they also have any -- I know Saint Michael’s had an annual fair. And do you recall that at all or? Like an annual fair, you know, with the Ferris wheel and all that? You don’t recall. CR: No, I don’t remember that. JJ: Okay. The Puerto Rican Congress, were they not involved in the first parade or something like that? CR: There was, but I wasn’t really part of it. And it could have been -- I remember the queen. I remember there used to be a queen. There was a queen. I can’t remember who it was, but she was. __: Carmen Cristia. Because (inaudible) and Carmen Cristia there was like a discrepancy as to who was the real Puerto Rican queen. JJ: Carmen Cristia? CR: See I don’t remember that one. I remember -- JJ: I recall the day we had to vote for the queen there at the Puerto Rican Congress. CR: Was it? JJ: Which is right there in Lincoln Park? I mean that’s something that’s kind [00:33:00] of like where the first parades -- because at first there was a Festival de San Juan all the way in 1953 at Holy Name Cathedral. At the (inaudible) at the -- CR: So I wasn’t here, I was still in Puerto Rico. JJ: But then the official Puerto Rican parade I think began through Saint Michael’s and Puerto Rican Congress and some of the other -- CR: Oh really? Okay. 23 �JJ: That’s what I recall, I mean what I remember. But because I agree with you. There was a very big community at -- CR: Oh my god. Yes there was. I mean when you look back at all the, the V, I mean I can name people I just remember -- JJ: What people? Why don’t you tell me about them? CR: Okay. The Vélez, the Peñas, the Lugos, the Almestica, what else? Oh my god. Pantoja, [00:34:00] because that was a big family on Larrabee. Big, big family. JJ: So when you say a big family, you’re not talking about the immediate family, you’re saying the relatives. CR: The whole -- yes, it was relatives. Aunts, uncles, all of them all lived around each other. JJ: So people were coming from Puerto Rico, not just one family but aunts, uncles and everyone. CR: Brothers, sisters. And then the ones that were here would have gotten married and, you know, started their own family. JJ: So is that not like some of the immigrant communities that come except that Puerto Ricans were already citizens but. CR: Yes. JJ: But they were coming like immigrants? CR: Right because you know my family -- my mother took in or brought my uncle, my aunt, two aunts and two uncles came from Puerto Rico when we came. And then my uncle, I remember my uncle joined the service, he was in the army. And he went through a really rough time, very racist. You know, he would tell us stories 24 �of things that happened to him, [00:35:00] and he came to live with us. So my mother brought her two brothers and her two sisters to live with us. So you could picture just all of us. And a cousin. Because I just remembered now, a cousin too. So she brought her cousin, her two brothers and her two sisters to come here. They worked, made money and some of them right now they live in Puerto Rico. But when they were here, they lived with us for many years, and we all lived together. JJ: In the same three room apartment? CR: No, that one was my uncle, my two uncles. But when we moved to Larrabee it was my two aunts and my two uncles. They all lived -- and this one was a little bigger. We had a three bedroom. It was a three bedroom, living room, dining room, kitchen. Six rooms. So it was a lot bigger. So in like in one bedroom it was me and my sister in one bed and my aunt, and my other aunt slept in another bed. Then the room in the back, there was bunk beds, so my uncles lived there with my brothers. [00:36:00] And then my mother and father slept in the front. But that was a bigger apartment. JJ: And everyone -- was there -- did everyone get along pretty well or no? CR: It was a Puerto Rican community. We all got along. It was a beautiful community. We had a rooster that the -- we -- I never forget that we lived next door to this White -- it was a White family. And that rooster would wake up in the morning and just, you know, crow. And they started complaining. We had rabbits, chickens (chuckles) in the backyard. And they started complaining. JJ: No goats. 25 �CR: No goats. It was chickens, it was rabbits. And they were in the back. And we lived in a third floor. It was a third floor. We were living in a third floor. And the Vélez lived on the second floor which I asked you Ricardo and what’s his name? Because they part of -- JJ: Victor. CR: Victor Vélez. [00:37:00] They lived in the second floor. And that was a family of about ten. That was a -- that family, there was ten of them. JJ: This was Larrabee and North Avenue? CR: Larrabee and North Avenue. The Vélez lived in the second floor. We lived on the third floor. JJ: And this was ’65, ’66? CR: It would have been ’65 through ’69 I’m going to say. And who else lived there that I can remember? Oh my god. It’s another Puerto Rican family that lived there. It was a big family. It was a lot of them. They lived on the other side of Willow on Larrabee. They must have -- they must have owned, or not owned, but they lived like in three different buildings. And it was a big family. Fabian, Fabian and it’ll come to me, their last name. They lived there. JJ: So what was the common language or was it mixed or? [00:38:00] CR: No it was Spanish, Puerto Rican. Puerto Rican. And then I remember there used -- a Black -- I remember a Black beauty shop moved like next door to us and they used to you know, Black -- a Black barber shop. It was a barber shop; it wasn’t a beauty shop. And I remember my mother took us there to fix our hair. She put a relaxer on our hair. And the relaxer was very, very strong and messed 26 �up our hair. Because they processed -- it was a process they used this horrible stuff on our hair. And I remember one day our hair fell out. Those were little things that I remember. And then Blacks started moving in. And -JJ: On North Ave? CR: On Larrabee. No, on Larrabee coming down Larrabee because you had the projects there. I guess when those projects started deteriorating, people were starting to move. JJ: Because you’re talking about Larrabee and then there’s Ogden coming in also. [00:39:00] CR: Right but Ogden was -- there was some projects there and there was a school there. Wasn’t there a school? JJ: Because we, you know, so there you had Chicago and Ogden and now there’s North Avenue and Ogden. And now there’s Puerto Ricans there too. At the time. CR: Right. JJ: So there’s kind of like moving west and north at the same time. And then they -North Avenue was like -- would you say that was like a -- people kind of just followed North Avenue, down? CR: Yeah. All of North Avenue like I said between Clark all the way maybe I could say Ashland? That was all Puerto Ricans. JJ: So it didn’t go past Ashland at that time? CR: Well maybe it did, but I didn’t go that far. I didn’t go that far. It could have gone past Damen for all I know. I think there was an Italian there. 27 �JJ: Okay. Because you also had another barrio from Harrison and Halsted and Jackson and that area there was also. CR: I remember that. I heard of families there, but I don’t -- I don’t know those families. [00:40:00] I knew some and my mother and father would go visit them. You know you would have the Puerto Rican parties. JJ: What was that? CR: The Puerto Rican parties where they would have lechón y pitorro. And so when I was little, but I would go to these parties and everybody, you know, just have a good time. Dance, eat, talk about old times. I just remember the women. Good music. Good music. But I was little at that time so I can’t remember. JJ: Records (inaudible). CR: Records. It was records. There was no -- I don’t remember the TV too much. I don’t think there was too much Spanish. But the old records, the 33 and all the songs that would come out. JJ: Spanish songs or? CR: All Spanish songs. JJ: Were there any bands at that time, any Spanish bands that you can -- CR: There was when we would go to the party at Congreso. The bands would come and perform. And it was good music. Good music. [00:41:00] Good liquor. A lot of dancing. People would dance and have a good time. JJ: Live music and -- CR: Live music. Good dancing music. JJ: So now you’re in Saint Michael’s. No you’re in Waller. 28 �CR: I’m -- yeah, so we -- we were going to Waller but then what happened was Urban Renewal took over all of Larrabee. I guess they built the projects and then when it was -- when it was our turn, we had to move. Because Urban Renewal, what they were going to tear down and I don’t know what they were going to do. And at that time my father decided to buy a house -- a building. And he got a building at 1113 West Armitage. It was a three flat building. Three apartments in the back, two in the front, with a storefront. This guy was going to [00:42:00] move to Arizona and he wanted to sell that building. He sold that building to my parents for $35,000. But before that -- before that, me and Carlos, when Carlos first came from -- which is my brother, Carlos came from Puerto Rico. We were outside playing on La Salle and Superior and Carlos had just come from Puerto Rico. And we crossed the street and Carlos got hit by a car and I was there and that was the shock of my life. I actually saw my brother get run -- practically get run over by a car. He did not know any English at all. He suffered so much. They put a cast on him from his chest all the way down to his leg. And we lived in a third floor apartment. So it would take like seven men to bring this boy all the way up to the third floor. And it was a horrible, horrible scene. [00:43:00] And Carlos never came out good from that accident. But the man that hit him set up a trust fund for Carlos, for our family and that’s how my mother and father were able to buy that house on Armitage. Because they took the money out -- they took some of the money out and put a down payment on that house. And that’s where we ended up in Lincoln Park. And we were there like 30 years. Twentyfive, thirty years. 29 �JJ: 1100 that’s like Clifton and -- CR: Between Clifton and Seminary. We were right in the middle. We were in the middle. JJ: And so there were other apartments there. You rented some apartments there? CR: And my parents would -- we would keep the whole third floor and then the second floor was rented, the front and back and the first floor was rented. And then the storefront was rented. So I remember it was a secondhand store one time. [00:44:00] It was a Puerto Rican family bought it for -- they played dominos there. They would play -- it was like a club -- Puerto Ricans would hang out there and stuff. And then I can’t remember what it was afterwards and stuff. And so we ended up (break in audio). My mother used to make ends meet by taking in foster kids. So through our house, we must have had like about 100 foster kids come through our house. Because that’s what she would do. To make ends meet, my mother would wash clothes, would iron clothes, would cook. I remember the teachers that would come -- we would have teachers at Arnold. Remember what Arnold? There used to be some Spanish teachers, and my mother would cook for them. And at lunchtime they would come and eat at my mother’s house and that’s how she would make ends meet. JJ: In the house. Not a restaurant. CR: No they -- my -- they would come to my mother’s house, and they would eat lunch and my mother would cook. And that’s how she makes [00:45:00] ends meet. JJ: Several people used to do that. My mother’s -- 30 �CR: She used to do that too? JJ: Cook in the house. CR: She used to cook in the house. JJ: But at Clark Street. CR: Okay she did it on Clark. My mother did it on Larrabee. And I remember Cruz? What is Milli Santiago’s? -- Juan Cruz? __: Julio Cruz. CR: Julio Cruz was one of the people that would come and eat. Ruben Cruz, the pastor and his sister. These are people that we know after -- JJ: They were teachers at Arnold or? CR: They were teachers and people that worked -- that knew that my mother would cook, and they would come out there and eat. JJ: I remember Ruben Cruz, yeah. CR: Ruben Cruz, remember Ruben? JJ: Had a TV program later. On Channel Seven. CR: Later on. JJ: So now you’re on Armitage. You’re away from Saint Michael’s right? CR: Yes. And we started going to Saint Teresa’s. So Saint Teresa was our church. And we did -- I did catechism. JJ: How did that start? How did that start? CR: That one? There was a Puerto -- there was a mass [00:46:00] there. There was a Spanish mass there and there was Puerto Ricans there. So you had Arroyo’s Liquor Store, which was on the corner of Sheffield and Armitage. You had the 31 �discotheque. They used to sell records next door. Then you had Jay Neal’s. Remember Jay Neal’s? And it was a cleaners. And then it was a store and then you had Saint Teresa’s. And I remember the dances in Saint Teresa’s. JJ: Oh you’re saying, so you’re looking at from Sheffield to Kenmore, those businesses that were there. CR: The businesses that were there but there was families living all the way on Burling, Larrabee. JJ: They were going further -- CR: So we’re going -- I’m going further east. JJ: But you’re more -- now you’re closer to -- CR: But we’re closer to Racine. Racine and Armitage. JJ: So Armitage became a Puerto Rican street at that time. CR: At that time you had -- JJ: Because you had North Avenue but now you get Armitage. CR: You had Armitage, so people were moving in. [00:47:00] JJ: So Puerto Ricans are moving north, as a group. As a -- CR: Sheffield. On Halsted. Jay Neal’s -- no not Jay Neal’s. Shinnick’s. Remember Shinnick’s the drugstore that was under the L Station? That was a German drugstore and his -- his son ended up marrying the -- oh my god what was the Puerto Rican family that moved there? Ivan Medina? The Medina sisters. They ended up marrying one of the sons. And then the other son ended up marrying a Mexican girl. Then you had the flower shop. Then there as a barber -- no barber shop it was a barber shop. It was a -- the Medina, but it was a different Medina. 32 �They owned a barber shop right there on Bissell and Armitage. Remember the barber shop? JJ: On Bissell and Armitage? CR: On Armitage. JJ: Yeah there was a barber shop there [00:48:00] I don’t recall the owner. CR: And on Halsted, do you remember the clinic? The Infant Welfare? That was a Puerto Rican clinic. Everybody that was there went there. JJ: On Halsted? CR: On Halsted. So you had everybody that lived on Willow, on Burling, on Orchard. All the way down past North Avenue, go to that clinic. That was a Puerto Rican -and that clinic did not start there. Remember the meat -- Gepperth’s? What used to be Gepperth’s Meat Market? That was Infant Welfare, and they ended up moving and then the Meat Market came in. I remember that one. So -- and then you had a cleaners on the corner of Armitage and Halsted. It was a Cubanowned cleaners. And then, god all the -- then that’s where you had a lot of Puerto Rican families living between Dickens [00:49:00] all the way past Willow, past North Avenue up to Clybourn. And then that’s not counting Bissell, that’s not counting Sheffield. You had Orchard. You had -- what was the other streets that was around there-- it was all Puerto Ricans. JJ: So what percentage of the community was Puerto Rican what do you think? CR: I’m going to say it was past 50 percent. It was mostly. There was not -- I -- there was more Blacks because you had Manierre School over there on Sheffield and near Armitage. So Manierre or Sexton. I can’t remember -- 33 �JJ: Sexton. CR: It was Sexton. That was a Black -- and there was Blacks there and Puerto Ricans. So I’m going to say 50 percent, or more was a Puerto Rican neighborhood. All the stores were there. There was a Spanish store on [00:50:00] Bissell. I forgot the name of that store. JJ: On Wisconsin you mean? By the bridge? CR: Under the RITA? JJ: By that yeah. Right near there. CR: There used to be -- JJ: That the one you’re talking about? The Spanish one? CR: -- the grocery store. JJ: Right. The grocery store. And you still had Mario’s on Halsted and Willow. (inaudible) CR: Okay. JJ: But now the Puerto Ricans are moving more toward Armitage and closer to Saint Teresa’s. And lower, were there Caballeros de San Juan? CR: Not around there. It was mostly just Puerto Rican family like Clifton. All of Clifton. So it was like from Armitage and Clifton past I’m going to say Fullerton was all Puerto Ricans around there. There was a building on the corner of Clifton and Armitage, that whole building was Puerto Rican. And then there used to be a lemonade store across the street from that [00:51:00] big building. Hedman was next door. There was big factory there, Hedman. Lot of Puerto 34 �Ricans in -- well lot of people. It was a mix. It was a lot of White, Black. It was a factory. JJ: So there were factories around there at that time. CR: Yeah. Because you had the -- on Clybourn there you had that frame place, I’m trying to remember the name of the frame -- they used to make frames, picture frames. Lot of Puerto Ricans worked there. And then you had Hedman. You had, I don’t know what was the -- it was all factories. __: Oscar Mayer wasn’t that around there too? CR: Right. Oscar Mayer was on -- JJ: On Sedgwick, my father went there. CR: The Oscar Mayers, the -- but no Oscar Mayer was -- JJ: It was on Sedgwick. It was more on Sedgwick. CR: It was more on Sedgwick, but that -- yeah, I remember that one too. JJ: My father worked in the area for many years. CR: But then we had Oscar Mayer School that was on Clifton and -- JJ: The Oscar Mayer School, yeah. CR: -- and Dickens. Clifton and -- JJ: Is that what you’re saying Oscar Mayer school? CR: Or the factory. I remember the factory. I don’t remember working there. [00:52:00] I remember that was a big place. But I’m talking about the school, Oscar Mayer. JJ: But that had changed because that wasn’t like that all the time but when you were there it was Puerto Rican. 35 �CR: It was Puerto Rican. JJ: So it had already -- CR: All of Racine, Puerto Rican. JJ: It had already turned Puerto Rican when it had -- before they had -- there were other ethnic minorities that were living there? CR: There was, but we just hung around -- you know, there was Whites, there was Blacks, but it was mostly Puerto Ricans. We knew all the Puerto Ricans. JJ: When you got there. CR: Yes. JJ: To that section. Okay now did Saint Teresa’s have any activities or anything like that? CR: Saint Teresa had a Spanish service. JJ: Like Saint Michael’s had, did Saint Teresa’s do that? CR: Saint Teresa’s had that. There was dances down in the basement. The school, we didn’t get to go to Saint Teresa’s school because we couldn’t afford it so. JJ: Down in the basement was there -- was the mass in the regular chapel or in the - CR: It was a regular church. It was a mass in the -- and then they would have coffee [00:53:00] and donuts in the rector-- not in the rectory, in the hall that was next door to the church. So it would have been Bissell. No, not Bissell. What was that? JJ: Kenmore. Kenmore. CR: Kenmore. 36 �JJ: Okay so now did you have any activities at that -- CR: It was dances and it was weddings, baptismals. JJ: Now I remember -- CR: The clinic. JJ: -- going to dances there. So you had some core -- hardcore youth going there, who were also there. I mean they -- besides the baptisms and the other. They were actually working with the youth at that time. CR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: The Puerto Ricans that were at that church. So they were providing services for the youth at that time. CR: There was a lot of Puerto Ricans. JJ: Or do you recall -- CR: I remember some of the activities, but we did not go to Saint Teresa’s. We just would go to church on Sunday. I did my confirmation [00:54:00] there. JJ: That’s right because you were being sheltered in your house, is that -- CR: Yeah, you know, my mother would not let the girls out. JJ: So what did the girls do -- they’re sheltered in their house? CR: The boys got to go out, but the Puerto Rican mothers would keep their daughters in the house. JJ: So what did the daughters do when they were at the house? CR: We would watch TV, hang out. We could play in front of the house because we lived -- here was our house and it was a big parking lot which was part of Hedman’s parking lot. So it would be like -- I’m gonna say 20 car parking space. 37 �So we would play outside while when the cars were not there. After the cars left we would play outside. So that was it, play. JJ: Okay. CR: It’s a dog. Dog. Dog. I think he’s -- JJ: Oh, okay. [00:55:00] So what -- after -- you moved from there, when did you move from there to Lincoln Park? CR: In the -- I’m going to say, my parents ended up moving but so we were there from ’65 to maybe in the ’80s. JJ: Okay you were there ’65 to the ’80s, so during that time, 1968, ’69, when the Young Lords came there. What did you think about that? CR: Oh my god. I remember the Young Lords. They took over the church on Bissell and Armitage. So I really couldn’t hang out with them. JJ: Dayton and Armitage. CR: Dayton and Armitage. Okay so it was Dayton and Bissell, Halsted. And I just used to hang out with them. But I wasn’t really part of the Young Lords. I just used to do the activities with them. So I remember that they -- you -- the Young Lords took over the church. And I remember going to City Hall [00:56:00] and I remember there was I guess there was some argument or fraction going on in City Hall. And we ended up going back to the church. I remember the pastor there that was killed. JJ: Reverand Bruce Johnson. CR: Bruce. JJ: And what -- what was the community saying at that time when he was killed? 38 �CR: That he was murdered. And they said he was murdered by the CIA. That was the word out there that he was murdered by the police. He was murdered. JJ: They didn’t blame it on the Young Lords? CR: No. He was helping the Young Lords, that’s what I heard. And that’s why they killed him. And then I remember the breakfast. There was a breakfast that we started. I remember the Black Panther party coming down and telling us how to run the programs. Because they were running the programs in California or LA. And we did that. And then we ended up opening up the clinic at Saint Teresa’s. JJ: So you worked in the breakfast for -- CR: I worked in the breakfast. I’m -- JJ: What was that like? CR: That was beautiful. [00:57:00] That was beautiful. We used to make really good breakfast for these kids. They loved it. So we had all the kids in the neighborhood would come there. We even -- and had it set up where the kids got to eat a very good, hearty breakfast. And then we opened up the clinic. And that’s where I met Omar and [Abba?] López and the doctor. There was a doctor that came from Denver. Do you remember the -- there was a guy that was a doctor. JJ: Alberto [Chamino?] was a medical student, but you had Doctor Jack Johns was kind of the director of the -- CR: The clinic. JJ: -- the clinic. CR: Okay so I wasn’t too involved with that. 39 �JJ: And some other, and some other -- CR: Nurses and assistants. JJ: Yeah, they were voluntary -- not volunteer doctors, but volunteer -- CR: So I did mostly the breakfast, not the clinic. JJ: But it was in the same location. Were there people from the community coming in? CR: Well the clinic -- the clinic was at Saint Teresa’s, I remember. The breakfast -[00:58:00] JJ: You were right. They moved later to Saint Teresa’s. CR: Okay. JJ: It started at the church -- CR: It started at the church okay. So I remember going -- JJ: Because (inaudible) years later. CR: And the breakfast was done at the church. I mean not at the church on Bissell. I remember the breakfast so. JJ: And so what other things do you remember? Do you recall -- were you at the church when Manny Ramos -- when we had that funeral or no? CR: No. JJ: Okay. CR: No, I heard about it. But I wasn’t there. And I believe there was some other shootings that took place on Damen? Damen and Division? The riots. And some other stuff that was going on, but I did not participate in that. 40 �JJ: I think the riots were earlier and there was a riot at that time in the [community?] But it was not Young Lord -- CR: No, no, that wasn’t. You just heard about it, you know. As a Puerto Rican community you would hear about all that stuff that was going on. But we were very sheltered. [00:59:00] My mother -- JJ: That was my (inaudible) years. CR: You don’t remember because they didn’t let us go out. We would not go out. She let the boys go out but not the girls. JJ: Did it have an impact, some of the work that was being done -- what I mean, did it affect the community at all? Not everyone was for the Young Lords. CR: No, they weren’t. But everyone knew the Young Lords and I’m not going to lie, some people would say that you know you guys were a bunch of thugs and gangbangers and stuff. And then you had some that did very good work. So it was a mixed reaction, you know? So. JJ: Well because actually the Young Lords were thugs before. They weren’t -- CR: And you guys used to hang out on Sheffield under the L station. And there used to be a liquor store there. JJ: So that didn’t help their image later that everybody was drunk. CR: Everybody used to drink and smoke pot and hang out, right? [01:00:00] That was a good times. Good times. And then, you know, when the Young Lords started organizing then that was a different era there then. JJ: What about McCormick Seminary that had you -- 41 �CR: Now, I remember McCormick Seminary because I knew there was a takeover, and I don’t remember a lot. I know there was a takeover, but I can’t -- I was there but I don’t remember. JJ: You were there in the community. CR: I just -- I was there as a supporter. But like -- JJ: Like inside or outside? CR: We were -- there was a sit-in inside. So they -- JJ: And you went inside? CR: Yeah. JJ: What do you -- do you remember anything? CR: I just remember going with the crowd. That was it. JJ: Okay. Was there a good-sized crowd or? CR: It was a pretty big crowd. It was a pretty big crowd. And I remember some of the leaders if you think back of all the leaders that were there. I cannot remember all of them, but the Young Lords were very instrumental and there were some other people there and [01:01:00] -- but I can’t -- I wasn’t -- I didn’t stay around. I couldn’t. I just was part of -- I think there was a march. I remember the march. And that was about it. JJ: Okay now after that, the neighborhood continued to change. And then what did you get involved with after that? CR: Well, you know, after the neighborhood started changing people started moving out. I remember the one family that lived right next door on Dickens. Remember the Polish -- there used to be a Polish stand there. Oh I remember -- let me tell 42 �you what I remember clearly. When Martin Luther King got killed, we were at Waller. We were at Waller. And we -- there was no Latino representation in that school and so one day we just got together, and all the Puerto Ricans walked out. The Puerto Ricans walked out. This was a school that wasn’t very friendly to the Puerto Ricans [01:02:00] that were there. They never would push the Puerto Ricans to excel. When it was time for college graduation they would tell us, “Go to a city college or get married.” Or a lot of them worked in factories which to this day, these -- a lot of these people retired from these factories that worked -- that used to -- that they started working there when they were in high school. And so I remember walking out because we wanted some constants. We wanted teachers and the whole Puerto Rican -- all the high school kids that were there, we marched out and stood in front of the school. And then I guess they settled the differences and that’s where we started getting some Spanish teachers there. I remember the riots. I remember when Martin Luther King got killed. JJ: So who organized this? CR: This was like a group of us. It was me and I can’t remember. It was some other people. We just -- a group of Puerto Ricans had just got together, and we just wanted some representation there. JJ: And this was in 1968? CR: It would have been ’67, [01:03:00] ’68. And there was a lot of Puerto Ricans there. JJ: So this was before the Young Lords -- 43 �CR: Yes. JJ: -- that you were doing this. So the community actually was already -- there was act-- people that were activists. CR: Right they were active. Because we wanted -- Arnold, Arnold was a Puerto Rican School. I didn’t go to Arnold. I did not end up -- my brother ended up going to Arnold. It was a big graduation but again we were moved into Waller and there was no Latino representation. And the education wasn’t the greatest. And if you did not -- and the kids would hang out. A lot of them would hang out in front of the school. I mean they were good years. They were good years. But when you look back at all the young Latinos that were there, the Puerto Ricans that were there, not a lot of them went to college. Because they never pushed college for us. They would just not recommend college for us. My mother that -my mother only went to school until the second grade. She made sure that we went to college. So me and my sister, we ended up going -- after we [01:04:00] graduated from high school, by ourselves -- we took it upon ourselves, my sister ended up going to Northeastern. I ended up going to Loop College. That time it was Loop College. So there wasn’t anybody there to kind of push us along to attend University of Chicago or anything. JJ: And this was because there were no teachers that were -- CR: There was no representation for us. Even though it was a Puerto Rican community, there was a lot of Latinos there. The representation wasn’t there. So we suffered. There was a lot of suffering going on. The repre-- you know, it’s not like now. So that -- we learned to survive. That was survival in the community. 44 �JJ: And then you said that there was a Martin Luther King got killed and what happened? CR: When Martin Luther King got murdered, the riots that broke out -- all the Black kids, because Waller was a school that was Black, White, Puerto Rican. It was a mixed school. And I never forget, and we had kids from Cooley, [01:05:00] Cooley High. There was kids because when the Cabrini came, they divided. Some of the blocks went to Cooley and some of the blocks went to Waller. So they would have to come down Larrabee to go to Waller. So when this riot took place, I will never forget every Black kid was beating up anything that was White. And I remember me and my brother -- my sister, it was me and my sister. We were trying to defend everyone. No, no, don’t hit her. No don’t hit her. But the riots just spread out past Halsted and Armitage. It went all the way down to Sheffield. Breaking of windows, just Oz Park. You remember Oz Park? That used to be DePaul. DePaul was there. The center. There was a center there. But those were not very good times. JJ: By Webster and -- CR: Yeah, Webster and Dickens? I remember the Young Lords took over that park. Because you guys wanted -- JJ: People’s Park. [01:06:00] CR: And it was People’s Park for a couple of years, right? A year and stuff. So, I don’t -- that one I just remember at that time I started -- JJ: We actually took over the -- they had tore down the buildings that Puerto Ricans used to live on -- between Armitage and Dickens by Halsted next to Oz Park. 45 �CR: Right and left it (break in audio). JJ: About 350 people took it over. CR: See, that one I wasn’t part of, but I heard about it and stuff. JJ: But it was going on in the community and people were I guess talking about it because it was from there. CR: That’s why, you know, to this day I tell people Lincoln Park was a community when the Puerto Ricans were there. We had a community. You know you heard the music, the eating, the getting along with everyone. Now it’s not a community. Maybe to some other people, but when we were there it was a community. Everybody knew each other. Everybody talked to each other. [01:07:00] And it wasn’t like a lot of violence, and you go now there, and you feel so out of place. JJ: But there were a lot of a different clubs -- street clubs but there was not a lot -- a lot of violence? CR: I didn’t think it was that much violence. JJ: No, I agree with you there wasn’t a lot of violence but there were all these street clubs. CR: Right you had -- there used to be a boy’s club. What was the name of that boy’s club on Sheffield? Sheffield? That the school -- the Manierre -- there was a school there on Sheffield. JJ: There was Boy’s Club on Orchard. CR: On Orchard but then there was another club right there on Sheffield before you get to -- JJ: By Armitage what was that? The Puerto Rican Youth Center or something. 46 �CR: It was a youth center. C -- Chicago Youth Center. Then you had -- yeah, there was more places for the kids to hang out. Places -- [01:08:00] JJ: There was all kinds of -- there was several places. At nighttime Arnold wasn’t open -- CR: Right it was open to the community, and you had the field it was open. JJ: So they were like an afterschool programs for the youth so that’s why -- CR: You had DePaul and there was a lot of activities there at DePaul. Where the childcare center -- JJ: (inaudible) for the youth. So there was a lot youth. And that prevented the violence. CR: Now that’s what we need to go back to. But -- and it was a good times, it was good times. You know, there was -- I’m not gonna say there was no violence, but it was not -- it was a clean cut violence. That it wasn’t like now. JJ: So in other words, once the neighborhood was stable and there was a community, the violence dropped. Is that what? Am I putting words in your mouth? CR: I didn’t see -- I mean there was gangs. I’m not gonna say that there wasn’t. There was gangs and you heard of the guys hanging out on Sheffield [01:09:00] and so you knew who the -- do you remember Andre Gonzalez? -- Andre and his brother Richie and that whole family died too. The only one living is his sister. They all ended up dying of AIDS or heroin overdose. The Rodriguez family. They used to hang around there. Johnny and Danny ended up dying of AIDS. JJ: Because actually there was a drug epidemic there. 47 �CR: The heroin. And the Rodriguez, oh my god. There was so many guys that ended up -- JJ: Many Young Lords fell into that. CR: Yep, and then you had the Vietnam War. A lot of them went off to the Vietnam War and came back very messed up. I remember that. I remember all the guys from -- JJ: And then the whole hippie era was around that time too. But it was a -- but then the -- but you’re saying the community -- but the community was different, but it was also beginning to -- people were beginning to be displaced and -- CR: Yes they were because [01:10:00] I remember the family that I talk about that owned this beautiful property on Halsted and Dickens, they ended up losing it because they couldn’t afford it. And all the people down Halsted, a lot of them lost their property. A lot of them stayed but a lot of them lost their property. JJ: How did they lose their property? CR: They couldn’t afford it. Everything was -- JJ: But they were affording it before. CR: They were but for some reason I guess it was a time that the prices were starting to go up and they could not keep up. Something happened that started displacing the families. And then you had DePaul come in. I remember when DePaul came in. JJ: What happened then? CR: DePaul displaced a lot of families. They started buying all the property around the neighborhood and everything started going up, up, up. And it wasn’t the 48 �same. It wasn’t the same. And I didn’t feel that because at that time [01:11:00] I had left that neighborhood, and my parents stayed there. And I ended up moving to -- I was on Leavitt and Armitage. And at that time I got pregnant, and I was living there. So I didn’t get to see but they changed a lot of the Puerto Rican families that owned property -- a few stayed, like you had the Arroyo family. They kept their property. They kept their houses. I remember the Rodriguez family kept their houses. And to this day I believe there’s maybe a couple of Puerto Ricans and Mexicans that own property. I don’t know if they still own it, but they do live there. JJ: Was there any pressure by the city at all, by like building inspectors or anybody like that? CR: It could have been. I wasn’t -- JJ: But you’re not aware. CR: It could have been. And they couldn’t keep up. JJ: Was there a plan to displace people? CR: I believe there was. I believe wasn’t that the Title 20. Was that the name of the plan to displace [01:12:00] all these people? I believe that the plan -- __: Chicago 21? CR: It was Chicago 21 or 20. I remember the plan was build those Cabrini projects. But then let them deteriorate. Because those projects deteriorated very quick. JJ: So they let them deteriorate. CR: They let them deteriorate. JJ: What do you mean? 49 �CR: Elevators would break. They wouldn’t replace them. You started seeing people hanging around. And then I believe that was the scene of the heroin time. And you know people were shooting up and selling drugs and liquor stores started coming up. And that deteriorated. JJ: So you’re saying they let it -- the police and everything -- CR: I believe they did. JJ: Let it deteriorate. Why would they do that? CR: Because probably it was -- were they looking at the plan that that was going to be prime property? I believe they looked into the future. That was only a temporary plan. I mean some of the row houses stayed. I remember Montgomery Ward’s. And what is Mongomery Ward’s now? Condos. Condos. [01:13:00] People live there. That used to be one of the stores that people used to shop there. That was like -- that was Larrabee and Chicago Avenue. The building’s still there, they just restructured it to be very expensive homes. You got a police station there now. What used to be the projects is now a big police station on Division and Larrabee. And then all the projects started going down until people couldn’t live there anymore. Then the floors started -- people only lived like the first eight floor. Everything else was shut down. Crime. Till it just disappeared. JJ: So that police station is the old Chicago Avenue police station? CR: I don’t know if that was the same one. JJ: But they have a police station there. CR: But they have a police station right where -- JJ: Where the Cabrini-Green used to be. And now there’s condominiums there. 50 �CR: No, it’s open land because they tore them down. The last project to be torn [01:14:00] down was the projects that was on Halsted and Division. That was the last family to move out of there, the last family to go. And I believe it was a couple of years ago or last year. JJ: And what was the reasoning to tear down those? CR: I remember somebody said that having people living on top of each other would thus create like rats. If you put them all on top of each other they don’t grow, they don’t thrive. And that was not a good setting. So why build them in the first place? JJ: Concentrated poverty basically. CR: And that’s what happened. JJ: So now where is the poverty concentrated? CR: Where did they go? JJ: Yeah where did they go to now? CR: Well now I guess they were -- you know what, I don’t remember. JJ: Is it concentrated or no that’s not happening? CR: Now we’re scattered back to -- I think we’re scattered in the projects; I mean in the suburbs. You know like scattered site. And then you had Altgeld [01:15:00] projects over there. They started moving people around. And then there was a lot of Blacks that lived in the row houses. And I believe there’s still some row houses left on Chicago and what’s that -- Chicago and -- JJ: Orleans. 51 �CR: Orleans and stuff. There’s still some projects there. But the big ones that were on Larrabee and Division and yeah, Division and Halsted, Division and Larrabee and Chicago and Division and Sedgwick. They’re all torn down. The school, Immaculate -- is it Immaculate Conception? That church is still there. I remember there’s a -- what is the health clinic that’s there? Winfield Moody? Winfield Moody is still there. So that’s some of the new buildings that came up. But there’s no more projects at all. [01:16:00] JJ: So you came out of Lincoln Park. What are you doing today in terms of community? CR: When I left Lincoln Park, my parents were still living there. I ended up moving out and had a rough life. Ended up getting pregnant at 19 and I lived with a -- my baby’s father for I don’t know how long. He was abusive. He was a drug addict. He died of AIDS -- ended up dying of AIDS from shooting up. And I ended up coming back home and I moved back on Armitage in my parent’s building and then I ended up moving to Orchard and North Avenue. And then from there, I just kind of moved out of the neighborhood. And now, I work for the state. I work -- I’ve been working 25 years at the Illinois Department of Human Services. I work with [01:17:00] pregnant teens, I do outreach, whatever. And that’s my job. JJ: But you also do volunteer work and -- CR: I’m currently at San Lucas United Church of Christ which is a Puerto Rican community. Or it is a Puerto Rican -- it’s changing. The same thing I -- I always tell people the same thing that happened -- JJ: Across the street from Humboldt Park. 52 �CR: Across the street from Humboldt Park but I remember at -- the same thing that happened in Lincoln Park, it’s happening here. Because we’re right in the heart of Humboldt Park and you’re seeing gentrification. We were gentrified out of Lincoln Park. Now I can probably say that my parents had brought a building, and I can probably say before that I would say my parents never got on welfare. My mother was a hardworking woman, and my father worked all his life. So, you know, they brought the house because of Carlos’s accident. It was a tragic that the accident happened, but we managed to get this beautiful building. And they ended up buying another building in Wicker Park. So when we moved out [01:18:00] of Armitage, and it wasn’t because I think my father and mother were getting older and we were living in a third floor. And it was harder for them. They were getting -- they couldn’t be going up and down the stairs. They got a good price for that building. They got very good money for that building. And they were not -- they were a typical Puerto Rican family that the families lived there all their life. And all my father wanted was enough to pay the mortgage. So these families lived there 15, 20 years with my par-- you know, in the building there. And then when my parents sold, they ended up moving to Winchester and Division. That was a Puerto Rican neighborhood there. But they moved to a first floor and then they’ve been there ever since. So it wasn’t -- and it was a good life. It was a good life. And they worked very hard to get, you know, to get what they have now. They worked very hard. They struggle but they -- and they raised six kids and a whole bunch of [01:19:00] foster kids were raised in that neighborhood. We had a lot of foster kids just coming out -- in and out, in and 53 �out. Some stayed with us three, four years. The rest of them stayed 15 years with us. They ended up getting married and leaving the house. JJ: Your mother was working for foster -- CR: She just took in emergency foster. We were emergency foster care site. So any foster kid that was pulled out of their home, they would be sent to our house. So that’s why we always had the whole third floor. Because there was always kids in the house. But she made her living taking care of foster kids. So, you know, we were not -- we -- they did a pretty good life. So I’m at San Lucas, I sometimes see some of the people I went to school with. JJ: What’s your role here? What do you mean -- CR: Here I’m the Council President and a member of San Lucas and this is a Puerto Rican church. The founder of this church is the Reverand Jorge Morales. There was a lot of riots going on around here, a lot of fighting going on in the community. [01:20:00] A lot of struggle. And I just happened to walk into all that. And gentrification has taken place in Humboldt Park. It’s sad, but this used to be a Puerto Rican neighborhood also. And I’m not going to say it is anymore. There is still Latinos, but it’s not like it used to be. JJ: Is the church involved in any activities here? What are some of those? CR: We were at one time regarding housing and jobs and there was a lot of -- the first Black mayor did a lot of campaigning here. JJ: You’re talking about Harold Washington. 54 �CR: Harold Washington. The pastor here was very involved in a lot of social justice issues and housing taking place and all that. So I guess it just comes with the territory. JJ: Weren’t you connected also with the -- what was your connection with the West Town Concerned Citizens’ Coalition? CR: You know, that one I really wasn’t. I heard about it [01:21:00] because I had moved in. There was other people that was involved. When I came in here, the pastor that was here and the assistant pastor that was here, they were involved in that. I kind of walked into a lot of stuff. So, I remember. JJ: But some of the programs that you recently were doing or you’re not doing them now, but didn’t you have like a food pantry or something? CR: Oh no here we had Centro Unida Latina which was an afterschool program that was started out of this church which they did. It was after school programming. What they’re doing now, we used to do that years ago. Had the kids here. We had 60 to 80 kids here. Teach them dancing, teach them how to do rumba, plena, arts, crafts. We used to just do a lot of things with the kids. It was a safe haven. This church had a place which was a safe haven for the community kids. JJ: And now I see BUILD, Incorporated. Did they use the facility? CR: This is -- BUILD works here. I mean, they’re housed here so we can have an afterschool program. JJ: A gang prevention program? CR: It’s a gang prevention [01:22:00] but we have an afterschool program. There was some monies that was at one time with all the violence going around, they 55 �opened up funding for teen reach afterschool programming. So there’s a program here that’s from after school until six, seven o’ clock at night to keep the kids off the street. So the program has been here over eight years or longer. So these kids come here. They do homework, life skills, safe haven in the church. JJ: And I believe Carlos or other people are involved in something. CR: Yeah, we have a writing class here. My brother is part of -- JJ: How does that work? CR: That one is people that want to write about their life or their past or their life. There’s a writing class that takes place here on Wednesdays. So they come together, and they share their stories, and they print some of their stories. And we had a food pantry here. We have an emergency food; we have a thrift store. We serve a hot meal. And the community, it’s changing. You’re seeing Blacks, Hispanic, [01:23:00] and immigrant being serviced in this community. So that’s now Humboldt Park. JJ: Any final thoughts? CR: Final thoughts about the Puerto Ricans in Chicago. I never -- I mean I’m just saying that we -- I had some good memories of Armitage. I had good memories - no, I’m not gonna say they were good memories, but they were memorable memories. Because you had -- you know we used to know so many people. Now you look back and it’s -- when we were growing up, it was a community. Now it is not the same. It is not the same. It’s sad, but those were good times when we were more together. We, you know, our battles were fought together. Now everybody’s so dispersed. But at one time the community was great, and 56 �we took care of each other. You know like the saying was it takes a village to raise a child. That used to happen. [01:24:00] Families would take care of each other. Now, no it’s not the same. And it’s sad because a lot of our kids do not know what it is to be in a family like we did. I don’t know. I’m just saying a lot of these kids don’t have the same -- the same opportunities that we had. We had nothing but we were more together. We didn’t have a lot. I’m not gonna say we didn’t have nothing. We didn’t have a lot but there was more family involvement and there was more strength. JJ: Why do you think that that was going on? CR: I don’t know it’s the changing -- I think it’s changing when you see a lot of these young mothers, teen pregnancy has skyrocket. And even if it was teen pregnancy at our time, the girls were not as crazy and wild as they are now. And family structure has just fallen apart. So we don’t have that family structure that we had when we were growing up. We just don’t have it. It’s not there. You know, if you try to reprimand [01:25:00] a family member, right away they’ll call DCFS. At that time, you know, if they saw you doing anything in the street, they’d say, you know what? We would get reprimanded. My mother wouldn’t fight it and say, “You don’t touch my daughter. You don’t do this.” But we would listen, or they’ll go and tell you father or anything. You know it was more family-oriented and the families were more together, and they would protect each other. Now, not now. It’s very sad. It’s not the same. So I have good memories of growing up. We had nothing, but it was good ones. What we didn’t have, you know, was just made up with the surroundings that we were with. 57 �JJ: Okay. CR: Thank you. JJ: You said you lived on La Salle; do you remember what address or on La Salle? CR: Oh my god it was right on the corner building of La Salle and Superior. La Salle and Superior. [01:26:00] The corner there was a -- we were on the third floor. JJ: That wasn’t the Water Hotel wasn’t it or? CR: No it was a three flat. JJ: It was a three flat. CR: It was a three flat building, and we lived in the third floor. And then from there we moved to Armitage and Armitage was 1114 West Armitage. JJ: What do you remember of that building? That three flat? That neighborhood? Do you remember anything? You were like five years old. CR: I was five. JJ: So what do you remember of that? CR: Oh my god. La Salle was a busy street. I don’t know if you remember my brother Carlos Flores, but Carlos came to live with us when Carlos was like 13 and I remember, I will never forget that me and Carlos were crossing the street on Chicago Avenue. No, we were on La Salle and Superior and we crossed this busy intersection and Carlos got hit by a car. And I was there. And I saw the whole incident when that car just smashed into him [01:27:00] and blew him up in the air and brought him back down. And Carlos was in the hospital for about a year. But we did not speak any English, so we suffered a lot. We came in the 58 �middle of winter, and I think Carlos ended up coming in the middle of summer like a couple of years later. JJ: Do you know what year that was about or? CR: Oh god. I’m going to say maybe ’59, ’60? I want to say. Because I was five when I came here so we were living -- JJ: When you were born in ’51 you said. CR: In ’51. JJ: So ’56? CR: ’56, ’57 like that. And then Carlos came maybe like a couple of years later and that’s, you know, and that’s the only thing that I remember. I mean and it was just a bad scene because we didn’t speak English, and it was just horrible. There was no bilingual education in school. We came in the middle of winter. JJ: What school was that? CR: We went to Ogden. First no -- first it was Sexton. Sexton was an all-Black school. [01:28:00] My -- we would get beat up by the Black kids. JJ: Sexton in Lincoln Park? CR: No, Sexton around what Cabrini what used to be Cabrini was Sexton school was on Franklin I think and we were going to school there. And then my mother moved us out of that school and put us in a school called Ogden. And Ogden now is a, you know, big, big school. And that was on Clark, Clark and I can’t remember. It was Clark and Orleans or something? And then from there, then that’s when we ended up moving on Larrabee and I went to a school called La 59 �Salle. And then from that area then we ended up moving to Armitage where I ended up going to Waller which is now Lincoln Park. JJ: Now La Salle was around Willow or something? And Sedgwick? CR: No, no, no. Newberry. We went to Newberry. La Salle was on Sedgwick and -- JJ: And Willow right? CR: And Willow (inaudible). So I know when we got to Lincoln Park, we were -- I was going to Newberry. [01:29:00] JJ: And before you get to Lincoln Park, you’re going to Ogden School, you’re living on Superior and Chicago -- and La Salle. CR: No, Superior and La Salle. JJ: And La Salle, okay. And there was -- do you remember that community there? Were there -- CR: There was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Puerto Ricans. They were starting to come. There was a Puerto Rican beautician downstairs. Her name was Clara. Clara Byron. JJ: Clara Byron? CR: Byron. She lived -- she had a -- a beauty shop on the first floor on the corner. JJ: Where you lived? CR: Where we lived at. JJ: Right on Superior. CR: Superior and La Salle. JJ: And then across the street was the Catholic Charities or? 60 �CR: No, it was -- there was a florist and then it was -- but that time it wasn’t Catholic Charities. It was something else. JJ: I think that florist is still there. CR: That florist is still there? JJ: I think so. I’m not sure. CR: And it used to be -- what used -- across the street was a big building. It’s Cath-it was Catholic Charities, but it wasn’t Catholic Charities at that time. JJ: Then, at that time. CR: I can’t remember what it was. It was a big building. [01:30:00] It was -- JJ: Then you had the Water Hotel where we lived. We lived in the Water Hotel. CR: Where was your Water Hotel? JJ: Right there across from Superior and La Salle. Right there on the other side. We were on the other side. CR: Oh, okay. See I don’t remember. I was only five, six years old then you know. JJ: So you were going to Ogden School and then you went to another school near Cabrini-Green? CR: Right because then my parents ended up moving to 1714 North Larrabee which was Larrabee and Cleveland. And we went to Saint Michael’s church and that was a Puerto Rican neighborhood then, you know, on Larrabee. And we lived in the third floor of a three flat with the storefront in the front. And we went to -- do you remember the boys club that was there? The boys club that was on Willow? Willow and Mohawk? Orchard. Orchard and Willow. And then across the street [01:31:00] was Newberry. 61 �JJ: Newberry School. Kitty-corner to that. Kitty-corner. So what do you remember of the boys club? I know what the guys remember but what did the girls do? CR: Oh the girls just hung out I guess in the boys club. They used to have a swimming pool. We used to do activities there. And I think -- JJ: What kind of activities? CR: Like there was dances and there was arts and crafts. But I know that -- my Carlos was more involved. They used to have a club there. The Continentals. JJ: The Continentals were there. CR: Yeah the Continentals and there but Carlos was part of that. We didn’t. We just hung out. We were just young kids. JJ: So the girls -- the guys had the Continentals and the girls they just went to the -- CR: Like we would go to the dances maybe, hang out. JJ: And who would throw the dances? CR: There was -- there was a group of Latinos. I can’t remember who threw the dances. JJ: But you remember it as a Latino community? CR: Puerto Rican. JJ: A Puerto Rican community [01:32:00] at that time. CR: Yes. JJ: Okay so then you’re there in -- and you also, you said you went to by Franklin? What was on Franklin? CR: No, we went to Sexton School. It was the Black school. And you remember Black kids would beat us up. 62 �JJ: Sexton is on Sheffield. CR: Then it’s got to be -- JJ: So there was Ogden -- CR: Manierre? JJ: Manierre? CR: It could have been Manierre. JJ: It might have been Manierre yeah. CR: Which was near Cabrini. I think Manierre was -- JJ: Where was Franklin School now? Did you go to Franklin school? CR: No, I didn’t go to Franklin school. It was Newberry. No it was Ogden, and I believe it was Manierre. JJ: Okay, I heard of that. CR: Because where did you go? You went to -- JJ: I went to Saint Joseph’s Holy Name Cathedral. CR: See we were -- well, we would go to Holy Name Cathedral for -- remember they used to have Las Hijas de Maria. I did my confirmation or communion there. JJ: At Holy Name Cathedral? CR: At Holy Name because we used to go to church at Holy Name Cathedral. JJ: So there was a -- Las Hijas de Maria at Holy Name Cathedral. CR: And we used to go to [01:33:00] catechism there. JJ: Okay and what year was that, what year was that? CR: That had to be late ’50s, early ’60s, maybe ’61? 63 �JJ: Okay, around ’61. And so then you moved to -- from there, where did you move to? CR: To 1113 -- 1114 North Larrabee. Which was Larrabee and Cleveland. Which, Saint Michael’s was down the street. JJ: And were you at Saint Michael’s Elementary or? CR: No, Carlos got to go to Saint Michael’s. I ended up going to Newberry. JJ: Oh you went to Newberry. CR: Yeah, we went to Newberry. JJ: But you had already made your first communion. CR: And everything. It was the Catholic Church. You know, the Catholic Church was the ones that really brought my parents over here and everything. They -- JJ: What do you mean? CR: You know that they came through like Catholic Charities. It was a charitable thing, and they brought us over here. And then that’s when my father started working here. JJ: What kind of work was your father doing? CR: Factory work. JJ: Factory work. CR: But my father didn’t [01:34:00] come to Chicago. My father came to Connecticut to pick tomatoes and cucumbers. And then from there he migrated to Chicago. JJ: How did he get to go to Connecticut? CR: Because that was the day that they had the bootstrap Muñoz Marín, and they were looking for people to work the fields like they do now where they have the 64 �migrant workers. So they call for people from Puerto Rico. And my father couldn’t support all of us. It was like three of us that he was supporting and so he had to come to the United States and make a living. And then he sent for my parents -- you know, he sent for my -- not my parents. He sent for my mother and his kids. And that’s where we ended up on La Salle and Superior. JJ: Right from Connecticut to La Salle. Okay. Now did you have other family here? Did he have other family? CR: No. Because -- well my father didn’t live there. My father must have lived with some other [01:35:00] Puerto Rican family on Oak Street. Do you remember Oak Street? It was Oak and La Salle. I think he lived with some people there. And then when my mother came with me and my sister and my baby brother which is, now they call him Cougar, the little one. Carlos had not come. Then that’s when we -- he ended up moving to the building there on La Salle and Superior. Which was a third floor. JJ: So he first came to the Oak and La Salle and then to that building. CR: To that building. Because he lived in a -- like it was like a man’s room. Like a -what do you call those? He was like a boarder. So, like a room -- they would rent him a room for the night. But then when my mother came with us, the two daughters and the son, and my brother was just a newborn. JJ: A rooming house or something like that? CR: A rooming house. It was a whole bunch -- I think there was a lot of Puerto Rican guys there. Or a lot of Latinos that lived there. 65 �JJ: So there were like a lot of men [01:36:00] that were working that came here just to work. CR: Just to work. JJ: (Spanish) [01:36:04] CR: So from there, we lived on La Salle and Superior and then we ended up moving on Larrabee. I don’t know why we moved. And then we stayed on Larrabee until HUD came. And at that time they were building Cabrini-Green. Cabrini-Green was starting to get built. JJ: So you came before Cabrini-Green was built. CR: Right. So we saw Cabrini-Green being built. And Cabrini, there was a lot of Latinos inside Cabrini-Green. They were scattered all over. So Larrabee, so we were what 17 -- we were 1714 North Larrabee. Cabrini started 1009 North Larrabee. Then 11-something North Larrabee. So the first projects was in the 1000 block of North Larrabee. That was the projects [01:37:00] that was there on Larrabee and Alston or Clybourn. JJ: Clybourn there. CR: Yeah, that was one of the first projects. And then you had Cooley High. There was a high school there called Cooley High. So we ended up going to Waller and then some -- the Cabrini-Green kids some went to Cooley and some went to Waller. JJ: But before you get to Waller, you went to Newberry also. CR: And graduated from Newberry. JJ: So tell me about Newberry. 66 �CR: Well okay we were going to Newberry. JJ: What was that like? And what the population was. CR: Puerto Rican. Puerto Rican because it was Puerto Ricans living on Halsted, on Willow, on Orchard, on Burling. That was a Puerto Rican neighborhood. So we were going to Newberry and for some reason we ended up moving. They moved us or transferred us to La Salle. So I graduated eighth grade from La Salle. JJ: Oh from Newberry and La Salle is a few blocks east of that. [01:38:00] So why didn’t you transfer to there? CR: I can’t remember what it was. I don’t know if the school was overcrowded or what. But from Newberry we ended up going to La Salle. And then I ended up -we ended up -- me and my sister ended up graduating from La Salle. JJ: Oh so -- okay so you went to Newberry and La Salle were the main schools you went to. But you also went to Manierre and Ogden. CR: Yeah but those were when we were younger. And then La Salle and Newberry were the two schools that we were like seventh, eighth grade. JJ: And what was La Salle like? I mean what was that -- CR: La Salle was on Wisconsin and -- JJ: Yeah, exactly, Wisconsin. Or Willow or something. CR: Willow. JJ: Between Willow and Wisconsin. CR: No, let me see. Newberry was on Willow and Orchard. La Salle was on Menomonee, was a street called Menomonee. JJ: Right, it changed to Menomonee. 67 �CR: And Sedgwick. That’s where La Salle was at. [01:39:00] JJ: I think Willow changed to Menomonee or something. But I don’t know. But it was Menomonee, you’re correct. And so -- CR: So that was ’60, ’65. JJ: ’65 and so they were not changing the school, but you don’t know why. CR: I believe it was overcrowded or maybe they redistrict, and they move some of the people around because we were on Larrabee and La Salle. Even though it could have been the distance, so. JJ: Okay, so what do you remember of school? I mean what was school like kind of? CR: Well school was horrible because we did not speak English. We did not speak English. So I remember being put in a corner for I don’t know how many years. And the teachers -- my name is in Puerto Rico they call me Camila. When I come here, I came here to Chicago, they changed my name to Carmen. My sister’s name was Mina, they changed it to Myrna. [01:40:00] So that’s how we grew up. And then we finally learned English, and we survived the streets. And the life and then from there Waller. And then I was there from -- JJ: And what about Saint Michael’s? You mentioned Saint Michael’s. CR: Saint Michael’s, my brother Carlos got to go to Saint Michael’s. I didn’t go. But Saint Michael’s was like kitty-corner of La Salle. But my mother could not afford to put all of us in a Catholic school, so Carlos I think went for a year, but we never went to a Catholic school. We would go to church at Saint Michael’s. JJ: And when you went to church at Saint Michael’s, how was the church? I mean where -- 68 �CR: It was a Puerto Rican church. They had a Puerto Rican mass. JJ: They had a Puerto Rican mass? CR: It was -- yeah. Father -- I cannot remember. JJ: Kathrine? CR: Father Kathrine was one of them and there was another father there. You know, White guys that spoke fluent Spanish. And they were part of the Catholic charity, you know, of helping the Latino families. La Virgen Maria. [01:41:00] JJ: So when you say you had Spanish mass, did you have it at the -- CR: At the big church. JJ: You had it at the big church. Okay so -- CR: And then when the neighborhood started changing, they moved us down to the rectory, down to the basement. Because then the neighborhood started changing so there wasn’t as many Latino families. JJ: So they moved you to the rectory. But you never celebrated mass in the hall? They had a hall next door to it. CR: No, we celebrated yeah in both. It was moved from the hall across the street which was Saint Michael’s. It was the hall; it was next door to the church. And then they moved us to the rectory which was down more in the basement where the priest lived. JJ: Oh so you started in the hall and then you went to the rectory. CR: We started at the church. Then the -- the hall across the street. And then from that hall it went down to the rectory. And so they totally moved out all the Puerto Ricans that were there. [01:42:00] 69 �JJ: Why do you think that? CR: The neighborhood was changing. The families were not there so they even stopped the Sunday service. It used to be on record that there was a Sunday service and then after that it was just -- JJ: You mean a Sunday service in Spanish. CR: In Spanish. JJ: But they stopped that later in the -- CR: In the years. JJ: Okay because I tried to look at some records and had some histories and they said they don’t find that period of time like it didn’t exist. But maybe just those people didn’t know. CR: They probably don’t know but they -- JJ: They didn’t know. Okay now were your parents involved with like the Caballeros de San Juan or -- Council Number Three was at Saint Michael’s. CR: My father -- my father used to go to the (inaudible) because that was the time that the Puerto Ricans would get together. So you had El Congreso, do you remember Carlos Caribe? The Congress used to be on North Avenue and Larrabee. JJ: And what did -- did you used to go there or? [01:43:00] CR: Yeah, when we were little we would go to parties. They would have parties there. JJ: They would have parties there. CR: Yeah, family gatherings. And then they would have baseball. The baseball league. 70 �JJ: From the Congreso? CR: Yeah. And my father was very active in the baseball league. JJ: What did -- did he play ball? CR: Yeah, he was a manager. JJ: Oh he was a manager. CR: They played baseball in Saint -- at Lincoln Park. JJ: Okay. So he was the manager of that team? CR: Yeah. At El Puerto Boricua. JJ: What was your father’s name again? CR: Charlie -- they used to call him Charlie Flores but Gonzalo Flores. JJ: Gonzalo Flores. And you said Puerto Boricua. CR: It was El Puerto Boricua Post Number I can’t remember. But that post was -- JJ: But did you used to go there to that? What did they do there? CR: They had dances, gatherings. You know, Puerto Ricans would gather there. You know we would be homesick I guess so all the Puerto Ricans would meet there. JJ: At the Puerto Boricua. But you don’t recall where that was located or? CR: It was on North Avenue and Larrabee. [01:44:00] JJ: Right next to the Congreso or? CR: The Congreso was right on the corner of North Avenue and Larrabee. If you look at it now, you would not believe that there was a Congreso there. But it was Larrabee. So it was the -- one side of Larrabee was like Puerto Ricans and then the other side of Larrabee was Cabrini. The other side of North Avenue -- so you had North Avenue dividing the Puerto Rican and the Black. 71 �JJ: Community. It was the dividing line at that time? And it was also like the road? Puerto Ricans kept moving west on North Avenue I guess. CR: There was a lot of Puerto Ricans, yeah. Willow. JJ: Would you see a lot of Puerto Ricans if you went there. CR: Families. Sheffield. JJ: What were some of the families? CR: I don’t remember a lot of the names but you have the Bergel? -- not the Bergels - the Vélez. I remember the Vélez. Do you remember that one of them shot himself? [01:45:00] He used to be part of the Young Lords. JJ: Oh yeah, Chino, Chino they used to call him Chino. CR: Yeah. You had Los Peñas, the Peña family. They lived on North Avenue and Sedgwick. You had the -- JJ: Someone else mentioned the Peñas. CR: The Lugos lived in Cabrini-Green. The Lugos lived in Cabrini-Green. Who else? I’m trying to remember the big families. The (inaudible) JJ: The Pantojas. CR: The Pantojas. JJ: So now you’re at Saint Michael’s and -- CR: Church not the school. JJ: The church, not the school. But there are activities going on there with the Caballeros de San Juan or? CR: Yeah there was a lot of activities, you know, for Puerto Rican families. They would do parties and dances, dinners, banquets. 72 �JJ: At Saint Michael’s? CR: At Saint Michael’s. JJ: And also the Congreso dinner too. So it was like several organizations right where Saint Michael’s was at, [01:46:00] at this point. Okay and did you ever go to any of those retreats that they had? CR: I was young. But I think my mother and father did. JJ: Okay. Okay. So you were young. Did they keep you in the house or as a young Puerto Rican woman -- CR: No, we were like what, 12, 13 on Larrabee. So we played outside. We went to the boys club. We went to Saint Michael’s. JJ: You had a site at the YMCA. Did you go to the YMCA? CR: Okay, where was the YMCA at? JJ: The YMCA was the other side of North Avenue. Action YMCA. They had dances too and they had a swimming pool. But the boys club was on Orchard and Willow. CR: We went more to Orchard and Willow. JJ: More Orchard and Willow. Okay you didn’t go to the Action YMCA at all? CR: I heard of it, but I can’t remember. JJ: Okay. CR: And probably was there just don’t remember it. [01:47:00] JJ: Okay but you went to boys club. And you did -- the girls did -- basically arts and crafts? CR: Arts and crafts. We’d do -- 73 �JJ: Any teams? Any soccer teams? Anything like that or? CR: Could have been, I can’t remember. JJ: Okay, all right. But you graduated from Newberry and then where did you go? CR: No, no. Not Newberry. La Salle. JJ: La Salle. CR: Waller. JJ: You went to Waller. What year was that? CR: ’65. JJ: 1965. CR: June of 1965. JJ: What do you remember -- now you were in high school you should really have a good memory. CR: No, high school was ’65 to ’69. Yeah because I graduated from Waller in ’69. JJ: Okay so now can you describe Waller at that time? Okay and then we’ll stop it there. CR: Okay, Waller was all Puerto Rican. JJ: All Puerto Rican. What does that mean? CR: Puerto Ricans and Blacks. But it was mostly Puerto Ricans. JJ: At that time? [01:48:00] CR: At that time. So you had Puerto Ricans living on Burling and you had Puerto Ricans living on Larrabee. You had Puerto Ricans living on Orchard, Halsted, Dickens. What else? The whole Lincoln Park. That was a Puerto Rican neighborhood. I remember the hot dog stand on Dickens -- Halsted and Dickens. 74 �JJ: Halsted and Dickens, yeah. CR: Used to make the best Polishes. JJ: Yes. Everybody had credit there. I had credit there. Other guys did. Okay. CR: You don’t want to finish this with my father? JJ: Testing, one, two, three. Go ahead testing, one, two, three. CR: Testing one, two, three. JJ: Okay that’s a good sound. All right. So if you could just start with your name and your date of birth and if you were born here or what town where you were born in Puerto Rico or your family’s from. CR: Okay. My name is Carmen Flores Rance. I was Carmen Flores when I was in Lincoln Park. But I was born [01:49:00] in Puerto Rico. July 18, 1951. My parents moved here from Puerto Rico from a town called Guayama in Puerto Rico. And my parents -- my father came first as every Puerto Rican family had to -- when the bootstrap thing was happening in Puerto Rico, my father came here to get a better life. And so then he left my mother and her -- and the kids. But then when he could send for us, I was five. My sister was six. And we came to Chicago to live. So I originally am from La Salle and Chicago Avenue. That was the first Puerto Rican family that I knew, and I was here when I was five. Then from there we were on Larrabee. Larrabee and Cleveland. And then HUD took over and moved us out and my parents ended up buying a home. A three flat building [01:50:00] in Lincoln Park. END OF VIDEO FILE 75 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/434a24532b50f425b5f9ef8456af7aae.mp4 fa04b9a477f6aadb612efc4394848edb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carmen Rance vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Relaciones raciales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rance_Carmen Title A name given to the resource Carmen Rance video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rance, Carmen Description An account of the resource When Carmen F. Rance’s family first came to Chicago from Puerto Rico, she lived at the Water Hotel then moved to Lincoln Park where she grew up. She joined the Young Lords through the Breakfast for Children Program. Her family owned a large apartment building on the corner of Clifton and Armitage Avenue where many other Puerto Rican families lived. Her family was active with Council Number 9 of the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María, at St. Teresa’s Church. Today Ms. Rance works as a case manager and has been a lay leader in the San Lucas United Church of Christ for many years. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Race relations Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-30 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7933d7dfc4fee72266ba41eec6b9dfd6.pdf 71e1b14b6814ecb6129d57779ba6b533 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Marie Merrill Ramirez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/16/2012 Biography and Description Marie Merrill Ramirez was a Young Lord in the 1970s in Milwaukee, Wisconsin where she worked closely with Chapter leader and Minister of Education, Dr. Luis “Tony” Baez. The Milwaukee Chapter worked within the university (UM) but primarily focused its organizing efforts in the community around deplorable housing conditions and discrimination, youth support and development, and bilingual education. In 1969, she and a group drove from Milwaukee to New York City to attend a major gathering for Puerto Rican self-determination and connected with other travelers in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood, at the Young Lords’ People’s Church headquarters. Ms. Ramirez is currently living back in Mayaguez, where she is involved with Minh (Movimiento Independentista Nacional Hostosiano) defending organizing rights of People, especially the workers, who she feels is the main force capable of making true change. They formed their group May 6, 2004 out of two branches of the P.S.P. ( Puerto Rican Socialist Party). The Hostosianos want to make Puerto Rico a free sovereign and independent nation. Minh members organize for a better education, health, culture, jobs and housing. And they work hard to uplift activists’ awareness of the conditions. They strongly feel that all social forces must unite, if they are to bring about any change. �Ms. Ramirez and many others participated in the fight to evict the United States Navy from Vieques, in defense of the environment, in the battle against Superpuerto, against the exploitation of mines in the mountainous center of the Island, and in the struggle to free the political prisoners. During the Vieques camp occupations, she wrote in blogs and reported about the U.S. military bombings of the Puerto Rican Island. Then she wrote about the victory of the campers to force the United States Military to leave Vieques. She continues to report that the struggle continues to get the U.S. to clean up their lands and to finance health programs for Puerto Ricans dying of diseases, related to the Navy’s military contaminations. Ms. Ramirez helped to organize a Peace March and a 24 hour vigil in front of Filiberto Ojeda’s house at Hormigueros, Puerto Rico, where the F.B.I. traveled from Atlanta, Georgia and shot and killed the Freedom Fighter. She has supported the struggle for the release of the political prisoners, including Oscar López Rivera. In 2010, she joined with sports athletes, artists, lawyers, medics, journalists, teachers, motivational speakers, and students to welcome and support all athletes (especially the Cuban) athletes at the Caribbean and Central American Games in Mayagüez. Even more recently, she hosted La Tertulia, a special event for the Young Lords. It was also organized in her hometown of Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you can give me your name, your birthday, where you were born, and maybe what you have done, I mean, in terms of your [wanting the?] status or whatever. MARIE MERRILL RAMIREZ:Well, my name is Marie Merrill Ramirez. Nobody knows me by Marie, only the guys, or the people that graduated with me from la Inmaculada in Mayagüez. I’m from Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. I was born May 14, 1947. I graduated from la Inmaculada. People know me as, in the US, they knew me as Maria. My nickname from when I was a child is Marianne. And everybody knows me here as Marianne. They usually botch up my last name, so they don’t know my last name. (laughs) JJ: What is your last name? MMR: Merrill-Ramierz. [00:01:00] I was raised the first 10 years of my life going from Douglaston, New York to Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. My mother, every time, had no concept of time. So, in the middle of a semester, she would up and say, “It’s too cold for me. Let’s go home.” And we would go home. So, I alternated between the school in Douglaston and la Inmaculada. And as a consequence of that, my Spanish is bad, and my English is bad. I’ve never gotten over that. La Inmaculada was a school that had English as the basic language, and Spanish, all we had was a Spanish class. JJ: la Inmaculada was here in Puerto Rico? MMR: In Mayagüez. 1 �JJ: But English was (inaudible). MMR: In that point in time, [00:02:00] we had nuns. We had nuns. The nuns came from the US, and they would teach us in English. We would have Spanish class. We had Puerto Rican history. The only Puerto Rican history I took was when I was a senior in high school, for one semester. Um, and it was very inadequate. It was that old book by Miller, I forget his first name, which started with the Taíno and finished with the US invasion of Puerto Rico. So, it was very little Puerto Rican history. When I got to college, I wanted to go to the University of Puerto Rico in Río Piedras. But it was a time of great activity, Independentista activity in Río Piedras. My family is very conservative. Very conservative. And they wouldn’t let me go to Río Piedras. I didn’t want to stay in Mayagüez precisely because they were conservative. And I felt like I was restrained. I mean, I was tired of going out with chaperones. And I was tired where you had to report all the time. I wanted some kind of freedom. And so, they made me go to a Jesuit college [00:03:00] in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, called Marquette. And I get to Marquette. JJ: Did they have family there? MMR: I had an aunt that lived in a place called Pewaukee. And so, that’s where they got the idea of Marquette. They had had me apply to various universities. I applied to Marquette, to Georgetown, to University of Michigan, and to the University of Alaska. (laughs) I was accepted at all of them, but I was only allowed to go to Marquette. When I get to Marquette, [00:04:00] it was like a cultural clash, because even though I had lived in New York, it was a very 2 �sheltered type life. It was not in New York City; it was in Long Island. I was the only Puerto Rican around. With my last name, I was able to pass. And nobody asked questions. And so, when I get to Marquette, and I started seeing culture clashes all over the place. And I started meeting Latin American women, because on my floor, the Latin Americans were the ones that took baths every day. And the Americans didn’t take baths every day. They would take baths on Friday and Saturday. And so, when you were taking a bath every day, you heard Spanish, you talked to people from Argentina, people from Venezuela, [00:05:00] people from Uruguay. And all these women knew a lot about their history. And I felt like I didn’t know anything about my history. And so, Marquette, at that point in time, was an urban college, an old urban college. It hadn’t started with its renovation projects that had completely transformed it. And we had this old library. And the books on Puerto Rico were in the bottom of the library, in the basement. And so, I would go to this basement that was cold and damp. Other people wouldn’t go to the basement because it was cold and damp. They didn’t like it. And they would tell me, “Don’t go down there. Nobody’s down there.” But that’s where the books were. So, I would study and do my thing, and then I would grab all the Puerto Rican history books [00:06:00] that I could. I remember reading this huge book by Gordon K. Lewis, Freedom and Power in the Caribbean. I remember [Michael Iglesias’s?] books. And slowly learning my history, I was transforming myself. And what I didn’t know was that Joe McCarthy’s papers were in that library, and they were in the basement of the library. And the priest that was in charge of those papers was the only one that 3 �would be around there. And he would come and check, and without me being there, he would see the books that I had on the desk, because that was the only place that you could leave the books, and nobody would touch them, and one day I’m sitting there reading, and this guy comes up and he looked like, you know the Da Vinci Code? The monk in the [00:07:00] Da Vinci Code, this white specter monk? Well, put about 30 years on that and this priest looked just like him. And so, I looked up and I see this ghost, which then I understood why the other people didn’t want to go down there. And I screamed. And he said, “No, no, it’s okay. I’m Father O’Malley. It’s okay.” And so, he would come, and he would look at the books that I was reading and then he would ask me questions. And when people say, you know, “How did you change from being a conservative, from being from a conservative pro-statehood family to being an Independentista?” It was defending my positions against this very conservative priest and learning about my history and my culture that I hadn’t learned in Puerto Rico. It was a complete transformation for me. [00:08:00] I sat there from September 1965 to December ’65. And in December ’65, I was an Independentista and nobody had convinced me. So, I don’t believe in convincing Independentistas. I think that you come to that conclusion all by yourself when you analyze what’s going on. JJ: Okay, because you were going from New York to Puerto Rico, and from Milwaukee in Marquette? So, about how many years were you there? MMR: I was at Marquette from 1965 with a couple of breaks to 1971. In September of ’70, I went to Madison. I didn’t last at Madison. It was just [00:09:00] way too 4 �cold for me. I just couldn’t take it. The wind, and the 50 below chill factor and all that, it was worse than Milwaukee. I just couldn’t. There was no way I could take it. JJ: Where were you in Milwaukee? And what years were you in Milwaukee? MMR: Well, the problem, I took some breaks. In 1970, my folks in Mayagüez sold a big piece of land. I had just graduated from college, and they said, “Well, you know, here’s a prize. Do something with it. Here’s some money. Do something with it.” I had, at Marquette, a bunch of friends that were going to go get married and they were from different parts, from the International Students Club. Because at Marquette, I never quite fit in. I knew I was not American. I knew I was Puerto Rican. [00:10:00] JJ: How did you know [you were different?]? MMR: Well, I knew I was different from the other girls in the dorm. I had never confronted racism before. When I get to Marquette, I get to this room with a girl from New York and I walk in with my aunt and my mother. And my mother looked just like I do now. My aunt was blonde and blue-eyed. And we started speaking Spanish and the girl looked at me up and down and she said, “Where are you from?” I said, “I’m from Puerto Rico.” And she said, “Oh.” And then she left. And a day later they moved her out of the room. And I didn’t know why. In front of me was one of the only Black women in the dorm. [00:11:00] And she didn’t have a roommate either. And so, I was disturbed because I didn’t want my folks to have to pay for a single room. I wanted them, you know, to pay for a double room. So, I go to the woman in front, and I said, “Well, you know, how 5 �come this lady left?” And the girl was from Kentucky. And she said, “Honey child, don’t you know the facts of life?” And I said, “What facts of life?” You know, “The girl was from New York. Don’t you know the facts of life?” I said, “No. Que paso? You know, what happened?” And she explained to me. And it also explained why some women wouldn’t have anything to do with you and others would. And I had never confronted that before. And so, that also radicalized me. I remember the first picket I ever went to in my life was to the Eagles Club in Milwaukee, [00:12:00] Wisconsin, because I was going out with this Dominican guy, and we wanted to go to, I don’t know, some dance at the beginning of school. And when he went to get the ticket, they wouldn’t sell him the ticket. And then we found out that the Eagles Club didn’t accept Blacks or Hispanics. And I got hopping mad. I have a bad temper, and so I got hopping mad, and I went with my friend that called me honey child, we went to this picket, and a guy from Haiti went with us. And I remember the Blacks seeing these Puerto Ricans coming to the picket, was looking at us like, you know, “Qué pasa que, why are you here? And so, I explained to this lady that was saying, “You can’t come into this picket,” [00:13:00] I said, “I’m Puerto Rican. We can’t go to this thing either. We are minorities too.” And she kind of looked at me weird. But they let me, and they let us into the picket. And I remember that picket. It was very cold. And I remember having -- it was my first picket. I’ve gone to millions of pickets since then, but that was the first one I went to. And it was the cultural clash of a Puerto Rican coming in from Puerto Rico and all of a sudden having this brand on you that you are a minority student when in your life you’ve 6 �never been a minority student, you know? And it was a very confining brand to me. I hated it. I didn’t like it. JJ: The term itself? MMR: The term itself. I hear that they’re calling us POC now. I don’t want to be called POC. I’m Puerto Rican. I’m Puerto Rican. I’m not Puerto Rican American, nothing like that. I have no loyalty to the US. [00:14:00] My loyalty is here. JJ: Actually, I just heard that they’re coming out with a whole new station, a whole channel for Puerto Rican Americans, Dominican Americans. That’s what they’re using. I never heard that term before, Puerto Rican Americans. MMR: I never heard that term Puerto Rican Americans. Years later, I had this sociology teacher in Texas, Hirsch, Herb Hirsch. And he did stuff on racism, and he came to me, “Puerto Rican.” No, we don’t use that term. I also feel very uncomfortable when people say, “I’m of Puerto Rican descent.” When somebody tells me, “I’m of Puerto Rican descent,” I’m very visual. What comes into my mind is this propeller plane up there [00:15:00] and then this jíbaro with his, what you call it, su pava coming down this ladder, and down there is the map of Puerto Rico. That to me, is Puerto Rican descent. You know, I just -- it doesn’t go with me. You’re either Puerto Rican or you’re not. It’s not a coat that you put on and off. It’s something you were born with. You know, it’s not something to be questioned. And people that are. That are from the States and say they’re Puerto Rican, even, they’re born in Chicago, Timbuktu, whatever, you know, I go with Juan Antonio Corretjer, Boricua en la luna. You identify yourself as Puerto Rican, I accept your identification. I’m not going to, you know -- 7 �JJ: What is Boricua en la luna? I heard that that’s-- MMR: “Boricua en la luna” is a poem that Juan Antonio Corretjer wrote for the Rodriguez sisters, Ida Luz and Alicia, that were from Chicago. And he wrote this poem, I think, after visiting them in jail, I’m not sure. I’m not sure how he wrote the poem. And then Roy Brown went and put beautiful music to Corretjer’s poem. And it says, it don’t matter if you were born on the moon. You say you’re Puerto Rican; you’re Puerto Rican. You know, you identify with what’s going on here. You love this land. I’ll accept it. There’s too many Puerto Ricans that were born in Puerto Rico, live in Puerto Rico, and are very sorry that they’re not Americans. I’ve seen them. I mean, I’ve seen Puerto Rican legislators that don’t know how to speak English yet [00:17:00] they’re statehooders. You know, I think it’s absurd. JJ: So, when did you graduate? MMR: I graduated from Marquette in ’69. By January of 1970, with the money that they gave me, a friend of mine from the Philippines and I bought this ticket with Swiss Air, that, it was very cheap then, that as long as you went in one direction and started in one place and finished in the other, you could make as many stops as you wanted. So, literally from January to, oh, I guess end of August -- no, January to September, middle of September 1970, I went around the world, and I visited all these different countries. You know, India, Egypt, Greece, all of Europe, Philippines, I spent a month in Philippines, Iran, because we went to a wedding in Iran. [00:18:00] And it was a complete learning experience. I had gone to Europe before because as I said, my family was upper middle class. 8 �And when you’re 15 years old, they say, “Do you want a debut or what do you want?” And I’m not a debutant type. JJ: What is a debut? I don’t understand. MMR: Fifteen-year-old like quinceañera, the quinceañera. I’m not the quinceañera type, you know, I just never been the quinceañera type. And so, my mother said, “Well, do you want to go to Europe? Asociacion de Maestros has these summer tours of Europe. Why don’t we do that?” And so, we had gone, and we’d gone to Mexico, and I visited a whole bunch of places. But that was my big trip. [00:19:00] That was my big trip. That was my big learning place. When you’re on an island, you’re isolated and, you know, it was things I learned then I’ve been using the rest of my life. I think it was a good choice. It was a good choice. JJ: So, did you receive your bachelor’s? MMR: No, no, I. I got a bachelor’s and a master’s from Marquette. And then I went onto -- which was included in the masters, I went in 1972 to Chile, and I went to the Universidad Católica de Chile, and spent I guess two semesters there. I was supposed to only spend one. And then from there, in June of 1973, after there had been a coup attempt in Chile, [00:20:00] and the Bordaberry Uruguay had given over the government to the military. A friend of mine and I crossed the Andes, crossed Argentina, and went to Uruguay. And in Uruguay -- I don’t think I really completed a semester because Uruguay was up in arms. The Tupamaros had been wiped out. JJ: Who were the Tupamaros? 9 �MMR: The Tupamaros were the urban guerrillas. And today one of the head of the Tupamaros, Jose Mujica, is now president of Uruguay. And his wife Lucia Topolansky, who was also a Tupamaro, and they both spent 13, 14 years in jail, are the government of Uruguay. But in that time, they were in jail already. [00:21:00] When we got to Uruguay, there was a general strike going on. And I went to the university because I had a student visa, and I had to do something with my visa. But in October, an engineering student was making a bomb at the university, and it blew up in his hands or something. So, they shut down the university and it didn’t reopen, I think -- I’m not sure -- until the next semester. And the next semester, I left in May. I left in May and went up to Texas. And in Texas I completed, after many years, a doctorate. And I was a teaching assistant there. I was an instructor there, Chicano politics. I worked with the Chicanos there, with the Texas migrant workers. I went to Mexican American Youth Organization, but they kicked [00:22:00] (break in audio) because I was not a Chicana. JJ: That was the only reason they gave you? MMR: Yeah. JJ: I recall that (inaudible). MMR: Yeah, yeah, no, no, I wasn’t Chicana, I wasn’t Chicana, so they kicked me out of MAYO. So, we started our own organization. We had two organizations in Texas, and we were part of the PSP, then. Because in ’71 MPI changed to PSP. And we had this innocuous type of graduate student organization which was called the Puerto Rico Graduate Students in the Social Sciences. And we were 10 �the ones that did all of the political stuff. And we would make alliances with the Blacks, the Palestinians, the Chicanos, anybody. And then there was a general Puerto Rican organization which was more like a social organization. [00:23:00] And in ’85, ’84, ’85, I leave Texas, come to Puerto Rico. By that time, I’d gotten married. I had one child called Claudio [Betanze?]. JJ: We didn’t get your parents’ names in here. MMR: My what now? JJ: Your parents’ names. MMR: Oh, my mother name is, or was, [Josefina Famili Quiles?]. My father’s name was Ernest Merrill Schmidt. JJ: Josefina Famili Quiles? MMR: Famili Quiles. JJ: (inaudible) MMR: So, we’re probably familia. JJ: (inaudible) my sisters are married to Quiles. MMR: Okay. Is he from Mayagüez or is he -JJ: From here. MMR: And my Quiles have blue eyes. JJ: They’re from all around, yeah. The whole block is Quiles. But then there’s some [Loquiles?] and [00:24:00] -- MMR: Well, in back of the Mayagüez mall there’s a sector, Sector lo Quiles. And I know that the Quiles are there from at least 1800 or more. Yeah, because it’s old. 11 �Jose Mon Quiles is the first Quiles I found there. And he lived in back of the Mayagüez mall, and there’s a big Sava where his plantation was. JJ: Oh, he had a plantation. MMR: Yeah, he had a small plantation. Yeah, he was an hacendado. And my grandmother -JJ: Hacendado? MMR: A proprietor of a plantation. Okay? And my great-grandmother was his house slave. And he was 70 years old, and he never had any kids. And all of a sudden, he has a daughter, [00:25:00] which is my grandmother. We’re talking about 1875 or -- yeah, because freedom came in ’78 or ’73, I have dyslexia and the numbers with me -- okay. My grandmother was born three years before. And at one point in time, we had the papers where he recognized her and made her and her mother, and her sisters, who weren’t his, free. So, I tell my kids, we know the color of our skin this generation, but we don’t know the color of our skin other generations, you know? And if she was free, she was Black and she was probably Indian. So, I’m white this generation, but I don’t know what [00:26:00] I was, what color my ancestors were. And I don’t know what color my grandkids will be, which is very Puerto Rican. I like it because here before, before they had these things where they could look at your stomach and they tell you if it was a girl or a boy, we had two surprises. You had the surprise of girl or boy, and what color he’d be, or she would be. And I think that’s one of the neat things of Puerto Rico. You know, I’m very eccentric in that, but I think so. I think so. JJ: And before that, (inaudible)? 12 �MMR: Well, I was going to ask you that. JJ: No, you were going to ask me. Let’s come back to it. MMR: Well, where was I? Oh, [00:27:00] I was having my kids. Okay. I had another kid in Texas. His name is Jose Gabriel Tupac. He was born in August of 1980, and he is named after Túpac Amaru because Túpac Amaru started his organization of his rebellion around August of 1980. November is when it was in full swing. Didn’t last long. But I always thought Túpac Amaru was one of my heroes. JJ: Now you went to the first picket, but were your parents at all activists? MMR: No, my parents were, how do I say? I met Luis Ferré because he was in the living room of my uncle’s house playing piano. You know, these guys were statehooders. They were friends of [00:28:00] García Méndez. You know, they were from the good families of Mayagüez, which I have no reverence for. JJ: Good family meaning they had (inaudible)? MMR: They had some money. Yeah, my family came into money because they had lands, and they sold the lands, and stuff like that, you know. But I had this background. I had this background of all my youth. They were statehooders. And in my hometown, we have two big leaders. One came much later when they freed him, Trafalcan san Miranda. The other one was Juan Mari Brás. And I grew up with Juan Mari Brás being the devil. And the only one that ever defended Juan Mari Brás [00:29:00] was one of my mother’s good friends who was his aunt, Doña Mayan. And when the old ladies would get together and talk and whatever, and Doña Mayan was there, she would stand up, if they said 13 �anything against Juan Mari Brás, she said, “(Spanish), [00:29:19] don’t touch Jonnie,” which was his nickname. So, for me, at my house, that was bad. That was the devil. You didn’t even touch them, you know, you had respect for Doña Mayan, because, after all, it was not her fault that she was his aunt, you know, but it was there. JJ: So, this is in Mayagüez? MMR: This is in Mayagüez. JJ: So, he’s from Mayagüez. MMR: Juan Mari Brás is from Mayagüez. The Mayagüezanos are like the Viequesens. The Viequesens are very exclusive, very, “Yo soy de Vieques, yo soy Viequesens” [00:30:00], [00:30:01] and the Mayagüezanos are very Mayagüezanos. And Juan Mari Brás and Mingo Vega and a lot of the people. And Pupa, Pupa, Traval, Nazario, and Trafalcan san Miranda are all from Mayagüez. And if you hear them talk, Mayagüez is going to come up there in some reference. Because we’re proud of being Mayagüezanos, you know? And we’re very Mayagüezanos. We, no matter where we are, we are Mayagüezanos. And you could see it in the discourse of the MPI, that was the Movimiento Pro Independencia was founded in Mayagüez. And in a very Puerto Rican twist, it was founded in whatchamacallit, Pupa, [00:31:00] Providencia Trabal is a spiritualist, a medium. And MPI was founded in Pupa’s house, which was the Centro Espiritista. JJ: (inaudible)? 14 �MMR: No, no, it was el Centro. It was where she had her seances and stuff. She said, “Well, you know, El Centro is big enough to have these people here,” so the 11th of January, I think it was 1959, Mayagüezanos, or people from all stripes gathered at El Centro Espiritista of Pupa. And they founded the MPI. And what is interesting is that when you look at the FBI COINTELPRO papers, they have no idea that the MPI was founded the 11th of January. So, it tells me that none of the folks there was a chota, was a stool pigeon. JJ: (inaudible)? MMR: They put the founding of the MPI in the more public meeting in Ponce, [00:32:00] six or seven months later. But by that time there was something like 20 MPI missions all around Puerto Rico. And so, Mayagüezanos have always been proud of, you know, we are more liberal than the rest. [Fort Lares?] in 1868, the bulk of the people came from Mayagüez. And when you look at the people that are arrested, you see Mayagüez, Mayagüez, Mayagüez. Maybe it’s because it’s the farthest from the capital, or because during that time the economy of Puerto Rico was in the west, it was not in the population. It was not in San Juan. When you look at 1820, 1868, and you look at the population figures, San Germán is the largest town. Mayagüez is bigger than San Juan. San Germán is bigger than [00:33:00] San Juan. San Juan is just an administrative center. It’s only after that and a little before the 1880s that San Juan gets prominence, and after the US invasion, San Juan gets prominence. But before that Puerto Rican history, the people were in the west, they weren’t in San Juan. San Juan was the administration. So, that maybe that explains a little bit of what Mayagüezanos 15 �feel, because we have -- if you look at all the municipalities in the west, each of the municipalities in the west have their [proced?]. San Germán, [Loíza?], Añasco, Mariana, Mayagüez has Hostos, has [Huskevara?]. Now we have Juan Mari. JJ: Of course, that’s (inaudible). [00:34:00] MMR: Yeah, we have important people that were Independentistas, and they came from those towns. [Omniveras?] has [Louis Bebes?], Aguadilla has [Diego?]. The west has their proced. JJ: And Hostos, you said, was where? MMR: Hostos is from Mayagüez. Eugenio María de Hostos was born in Río Cañas, Caguas. And Juan Cruz Rivera, which we called El General, fought in Cuba in the war for independence. He got to be general in that war. He was the general [Empinandez Rio?]. He got to be governor of La Havana. They made a special law in Cuba allowing him to take a position in the Cuban government, even though he was from Puerto Rico. So, we have that history. And the MPI was formed in Mayagüez. And to this day, Mayagüez has a different kind of atmosphere than the rest of Puerto Rico. The left in Mayagüez [00:35:00] has a higher tendency of working together than the left where the leaders are in San Juan. JJ: Because they’re closer, or because of what? MMR: Because it’s the same shoes in the street. When we have a demonstration and I look to the side, I see the guy from PIP. I see Luis Ibrahim next to me. When I look and I see the, whatchamacallit, [Gisela?] from [Miya Mesete?] on the other 16 �side. I see the guys from La Nueva Escuela. I see [Don Gila?] and the old nationalists there. When we call a demonstration, everybody comes. There’s no such thing of, “Oh, MINH called a demonstration. Let’s not go.” We work together. We like to work together. And in the mother organizations in San Juan, [00:36:00] especially in PIP and MINH, they look at us like, “You can do that? We can’t. You can do that?” Right now, at this point in time, there’s a bust of de Diego be in front of the college in Mayagüez. The rector of the college said that that bust wasn’t his, he wasn’t going to take care of it. So, [Manuele Escuela?], El MINH and El PIP are the ones that went, and we put flowers around the bust. We go every month and cut the grass. We put the flowers nice. And it’s everybody. FUPI is in on this too. If the group was founded in Mayagüez and the people there are from [00:37:00] Mayagüez, we work together. If the group has a lot of people from San Juan, you have some problems, but not many. Not many. Because we have all realized that if we don’t work together, you’re just going to have six or seven people at a picket. That’s not that good. JJ: Back in the ’60s, when the Young Lords started in Chicago, the only thing we heard about was MPI (inaudible), but we knew almost nothing. We just kind of knew their names. We knew they were protesting and that. But what were some of the actions that they were taking and why, during the ’60s? MMR: MPI during the ’60s? During the ’60s, the Movimiento Pro Independencia, there was the controversy of the minds, in [00:38:00] Adjuntas and Utuado where MPI, led by Juan Mari Brás, and with the help of many other organizations, literally 17 �won that fight. The young people went door to door in Adjuntas and Utuado. Alexis Massol and his people were there. And they literally prevented open pit mining in the middle of Puerto Rico because there was copper there. There was also the controversy of the super port in Aguadilla. And there it was PIP, MPI and a whole bunch of -JJ: What’s a super port? What was it? MMR: They were going to make a really huge super port where these big boat tankers and stuff could go. And it would have ruined the bay in Aguadilla. And that was another fight. There was also the fight against the Vietnam War. There was also the whole bunch of student protests at that time against ROTC, which [00:39:00] FUPI, which at that point in time, FUPI was very close to MPI. JJ: I knew the building was burned down. MMR: The building was burned down. Antonia Martinez was killed. JJ: How did that happen? I remember hearing --(inaudible) MMR: Okay, there were people running down the streets, these little streets of Río Piedras, she’s on a balcony. She sees this cop beat somebody up. She yells down, “Don’t beat him up. You’re a moron,” or something like that. Guy went and shot her. What is really interesting about this is that the cops involved in that, that never came out publicly, but we know, were El Amolao, who was later mayor of Cataño [00:40:00] and the mayor of Canóvanas now were those two cops. And there was also, at that point in time, in Puerto Rico, there’s always been these mobs, okay? And in the turn of the century, they call them the turba republicanos, the republican mob. And it was turn of the century when Barbosa 18 �and Muñoz Rivera were around. Barbosa literally paid these guys; his name was Jose Mauleon. And Jose Mauleon would follow Muñoz Rivera everywhere he went and burn and break into and a whole bunch of things. And these mobs had their successors in the 1960s commanded by a guy called [Palerm?]. They called him El General [00:41:00] Palerm. And at one point in time, the MPI headquarters was at -- I think it was ’69, I’m not sure -- Dates and me don’t -headquarters was in the Plaza of Rio Piedras. The mob surrounded the Plaza de Rio Piedras with the police watching, and they were shooting, literally shooting, inside the building. Some people were shot. And they were going to burn the building down. And there is a story going on around that somebody, I don’t know if it’s [Gadissa?], somebody called, had the phone number of Rosarito Ferré, who was the daughter of the Governor Ferré at that time. They got to her, she got to her father, her father got the people out. Told his people -- his people [00:42:00] -- told his people that that was too much, to get out. There was also, oh, something about [Chepa Delitisi?] has this in a book. And there was, I think it was something like 157 incidents of, whatchamacallit, of statehooders and their repression against Independentistas, and Impresora Nacional, the printing press of Claridad was bombed I don’t know how many times, was set afire I don’t know how many times. JJ: So, you mean the statehooders were doing what (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? MMR: The statehooders were exactly -- no, they were Escuadrón de la -- there were murder squads in the Puerto Rican police that was pro-statehood. Alejo 19 �Maldonado, Cerro Maravilla, [00:43:00] [Caraballo?], who was a labor leader,they found him tortured in El Yunque. They killed [Muñoz Barela?] in 19 -- I think it was ’77, ’78, Muñoz Barela was a Cuban that had come to Puerto Rico when he was very young, and he was in [barria Antonio marcello?], he started the travel agency to have Cubans go to Cuba. And they killed him. And it was Cuban exiles together with the extreme right. And in that extreme right were [Granados Navedo?], [Mesla Dorondo?], a guy that they took out of Puerto Rico after he was pointed at, his name is Diaz Olmos, Luis Felipe, [00:44:00] or something Felipe Diaz Olmos. They called him [Aype?]. Freddy Valentin, from Mayagüez. In Mayagüez in 11th of (break in audio) 1975, Doris Pizarro is the head of PSP in Mayagüez at the time. Freddy Valentín comes by -- you should interview Doris on this, and she’ll tell you, Freddy Valentín would come by and say, “Hey, I left you a little present, I left you a little present.” And Doris and everybody went all around the plaza, all the buildings around the plaza looking for the damn present. A little bit down from the plaza was a place called Central Drive-In, that was owned by [Mulet?] who is the father of Elaine [Mulet?] which is the communications leader in MINH, now. And in the garbage can there was a bomb and the bomb went off. [00:45:00] It injured 11 people, it killed two- Milli Hughes’s husband, [Chabanje?] and one of the workers in the Central Drive-In. There was drive by shootings all the time. And this was the Puerto Rican right with the Cuban exiles, Abdallah was in on it, and the FBI and Puerto Rican police. This was all part of COINTELPRO. JJ: So, the FBI was doing drive-by shootings? 20 �MMR: Yeah, Cerro Maravilla, the FBI was watching. The FBI was there. They would create these groups that they said that were terrorist groups, they weren’t, to confuse everybody. They were in on it. COINTELPRO shows it. They were in on it. They were in on Cerro Maravilla only we haven’t touched them. [00:46:00] JJ: They would create terrorist groups? MMR: They would create terrorist groups that would do terrorist acts, and then they would say that it was the left when it was the right. JJ: It was them, basically. MMR: The left was doing things, but it was confusing. You couldn’t figure out who had done what. JJ: In the United States, they brought provocateurs that would go to demonstrations and create riots. MMR: Here in Puerto Rico, they had them. JJ: They had groups. MMR: Yeah, here in Puerto Rico, Alejandro Gonzalez Malavé was the guy from, whatchamacallit, from Cerro Maravilla. He was recruited when he was 13 years old. JJ: Actually, we did have the Young Lords, there was a group that were called the Comancheros that wore blue berets. We wore purple. And they were next door to our church in Chicago, which is what you’re saying. But they were not sophisticated. MMR: No, no, these guys were sophisticated. These guys were sophisticated. That Puerto Rican police [00:47:00] with the FBI, with the knowledge of the FBI, went 21 �and recruited at least five 13-, 14-year-olds, because at that point in time, we had a student organization called FEPI, which was in the high schools. FUPI was for college, FEPI was for the high school. They would go to intermediate school and recruit. They recruited five, at least five. At least five, which is something that I’d never seen in any of the papers or anything in the US, nothing. Nothing like that. Then we had Claridad. And Claridad, in a sense, saved the movement a lot of times because all those anonymous letters, remember the anonymous letters that COINTELPRO would put out all over the place? JJ: Could you [00:48:00] explain a little bit about -- MMR: COINTELPRO, Counter Intelligence Program by the FBI started in the ’50s with the Communist Party, went on to the Socialist Workers Party, and the third one that came in, in 1961, was the Puerto Rican Independence Movement. And before then the FBI had this other program, which is called COINFILE, which was to get information. And so, they had files on all the Puerto Rican leaders since the beginning of time, even since the Spanish times. Since the Spanish times, Puerto Rican Independentistas have been persecuted. In Spanish times, we know of Betances, and we know when Betances came from Paris, he was exiled in Paris, but he came in 1880 on a trip to the Caribbean. At that point, the port of call for everybody [00:49:00] was St. Thomas. And the Spanish had police in St. Thomas. When Betances gets to St. Thomas, a Spanish man-o-war follows his little boat everywhere he goes through the Caribbean for at least three or four months. And then when he comes back to St. Thomas and goes to Spain, the boat, the Spanish ship left. But can you imagine what that would cost, or what 22 �that cost the Spanish in that time to follow around one man with a whole boat, to the Dominican Republic, to Haiti, to the places that he went to in the Caribbean. The Puerto Rican Independence Movement has been repressed since before 1868, since the 1820s, since the time when we had María Mercedes Barbudo, who was a woman of 50 years old. She was a merchant in San Juan. She was pro-independence. She was a friend of [00:50:00] Bolívar’s. And she had to be exiled- or the Spanish put her in jail in Cuba and then she went into exile in Venezuela. And today she is buried in the cathedral in Venezuela. And since the time of María Mercedes Barbudo. So, when people tell me, “Well, there’s so few Independentistas,” I say, “Well, it’s a miracle that we’re still around.” Juan Mari Brás, leader of PSP, MPI, they would follow him 24 hours a day. If you look at FBI papers and you see something called “June Mail,” that’s the one they’re following 24 hours a day. They would go to the schools where his kids were. They would tell him, “You know that that guy is a son of Juan Mari Brás?” And the worst thing they did to Juan Mari Brás, in March of, I think it was 1976, they killed his eldest son. [00:51:00] JJ: I read something about that. MMR: Yeah, Santiago Mari Pesquera. He was 23 years old. He was a pilot. This Cuban exile said that he had killed him. But the Cuban exile that said that was crazy. He didn’t know how to drive. And so, the question is, how did he get Santiago Mari Pesquera’s body from Coupe de Caguas], which is quite a ways. And the FBI knows who killed him, knows who said that would kill him, and what they wanted to do was destroy the movement and destroy the head of the 23 �movement at that point. The most effective head of the movement at that point, and he was Juan Mari Brás. And he was from Mayagüez. When I did my dissertation, I did my dissertation on FBI [00:52:00] COINTELPRO. I organized his papers. He was my friend. Until the day he died at the last week of March. He was completely depressed. You could not go to his house then, because his eldest son had been killed. And he felt like his eldest son, “He was killed because of me.” Okay? And in all this time, as a reaction to all this stuff, we had a series of guerrilla groups that were here in Puerto Rico. The first was CAL, Commando Armadas de Liberación Nacional. After he died, his son, Juan Raul Mari Pesquera revealed that one of the heads of CAL [00:53:00] had been Juan Mari Brás. The guy that signed all the communiques was Alfonso Beal. Beal, the last name comes from the [dances Albizo?]. Alfonso was a name of one of Juan Mari Brás’s antepasados. But CAL did not have one leader. It had a group of leaders. And we’ve lost some of them. Others are still alive. So, we don’t say -- CAL was never penetrated. It would do things like when the first supermarkets came into Puerto Rico, because the supermarkets took away so many jobs of Puerto Ricans. They would blow them up and do other types of actions. After that, we had Ejército Popular Boricua, or Los Macheteros, which was headed by Filiberto Ojeda Ríos, [00:54:00] who was killed in 2005, September 23, in Hormigueros, and whose house, a group of people from the west, many organizations, take care of the house to this day. Cha-Cha, if you ever want to go to the house, we can do that. But it’s been a big struggle in Puerto Rico. And I think that I saw a film on COINTELPRO in Puerto Rico the other day, and it 24 �ignored most of the struggle here on the island. It concentrated on Chicago and New York. But the struggle has been here. The struggle has been here when an Independentista knows that to be an Independentista it costs you. You don’t get money from the movement. You give money for [00:55:00] the movement. You get satisfaction of doing something that is good for your soul, good for your conscience, but you don’t get satisfaction of money. The Puerto Rican left is not like the US left that goes to foundations and this. No, no, no. We make our own stuff. For example, me, in Mayagüez, has a little house. We pay water and light for the little house by going and recycling cans. And it’s worked. We tell the companeros when they come on Wednesday to the meetings, bring your cans. And they do. And because of the circumstances that Puerto Rico is passing now, many of our members pay their dues in cans. That’s fine. You know? You don’t have the money, fine. Give me your cans. Go around your neighborhood and get your cans. And for two years we’ve been able to pay light and water with cans. [00:56:00] We also have a bazaar, which this Friday we’re having a bazaar, which is things that donated. Folks donated, and we don’t sell anything more than 10 dollars. The clothes go for a dollar. FUPI comes, every once in a while, and gets T-shirts and stuff for a dollar. The people in the neighborhood are now patronizing, I think. We also have doctors and nurses from MINH, which are usually busy doing their things and can’t come to the meetings or can’t give much time, yet they give us three hours a month. And we’ve been going to different barrios in Mayagüez and doing a simple health fair, where you take blood pressure, sugar, oxygen count, the sugar, diabetes count. 25 �JJ: So, you’re (inaudible). MMR: Yeah, we have that program. [00:57:00] JJ: That was [started by you guys?]. MMR: Yeah. What we do with the health program is we go with our tarp, we put it up, we put our MINH sign in back, because we don’t go to a place without identifying ourselves. Because we found out that if you go to a place, you don’t say you’re Independentista, you don’t say you’re MINH, and then later the people find out, they don’t like it. So, we are honest. We go with that. We go with a whole bunch of information on health and with our little thing that’s called [Capá Prieto?], our monthly magazine called Capá Prieto. And we have a special Capá Prieto for the health fair. We have Hostos, who is from Mayagüez, on one side, and Juan Mari Brás, who is from Mayagüez, on the other. And then we go with this little oposculo, a little flyer, that says “MINH health policy.” [00:58:00] But we have about 25 things on diabetes, on hypertension, on anything heart, bad circulation, cancer, anything like that. That’s the bulk of our information. We have three things that are MINH. The banner and the two informations. And this is our fourth or fifth time and we’ve been through there. And the least amount of people that we have helped out is 50. I think that’s great. And then we have a program of [See Me?], a film, film in the plaza, which we have the second Friday of each month, and we have a Puerto Rican film there. And we advertise it, and we put it right in the middle of the plaza. The mayor has been good enough to give us 50 plastic chairs. And we just put our screen up, put our whatever it is up, and we do a film that was made in Puerto Rico. What we did this month was 26 �on [00:59:00] [Carlo Pescavara?], and his campaign to free him from 31 years of prison. And then each month, we have a [Bien asustado?], which is on different topics. We’ve talked about the Marshall Islands; we’ve talked about the new political parties that are coming in. We talked about corruption in Puerto Rico and what it costs you, anything. And we have that in the law faculty in Mayagüez. I don’t know how much more time we’ll have it there because it looks like Ana G. Mendez, the private university, is going to take it over. That’s something we’re going to fight. JJ: Ana G. Mendez is (inaudible)? MMR: Yeah, Ana G. Mendez is like this big pulpo that comes in and takes everything over. And the faculta is important to us because it was literally [01:00:00] a Mayagüez movement of lawyers and other activists to do a law faculty that concentrated on social justice. JJ: I wanted to -- MMR: Let’s go back to the Young Lords. JJ: Yeah, let’s talk about the Young Lords here, but before that, can you mention a little bit about the letters (inaudible)? There’s (inaudible) on COINTELPRO, you were talking about some letters that were being sent out. MMR: Okay. There were a whole bunch of anonymous letters that were being sent out accusing various leaders of doing various things, of robbing the organization, of going out with women that weren’t their wives, anything they could get their hands on. And these letters in the Black Panther movement resulted in fights, resulted in murders. But here we had Claridad. [01:01:00] And Claridad is now 27 �the oldest newspaper in Puerto Rico. It’s going to be 51 years old. And Claridad had two sections. They had section that said, “Know your stool pigeon,” (Conoce su chota?). [01:01:14] And in the various towns, when they found one of these police provocateurs, they would get the picture and publish it in Claridad so that you would know your stool pigeon. And then they would take these anonymous letters, and they would publish. JJ: Sort of like we call pick of the month, pick of the year. MMR: Yeah, pick of the year, pick of the month. And then they had, they would take these letters, these anonymous letters, and publish them and say, “This is the CIA letter.” But before they published the letters, it’s very interesting with the independence movement, [01:02:00] because the leaders on top are all fighting. But when you go to the different towns, the people in the towns many times react like we do in Mayagüez. We know the other guys; we respect the other guys. We fight with the other guys, but we know that they’re more attuned to us than somebody else. And so, they would go with the letters to the different organizations, and they would say, “This is signed by your organization. Would you please find out if you guys wrote it?” And so, the guys from the bottom, the rank and file, would go, and they would find out if these letters or these anonymous letters were written by their group. If not, they would come back and say, “No, we didn’t write it.” And the other group would be tolerant enough to accept this, okay? And then it would be published in Claridad, and they’d say, “This is a CIA letter.” They always referred to the CIA. [01:03:00] They didn’t refer to the FBI. 28 �JJ: This is during the ’60s. MMR: This is during the ’60s. So, the fights between the Socialist League, and the MPI, and the Nationalists, yeah, fights occurred. But a whole bunch of fights that the FBI wanted to provoke did not occur. JJ: So, there was no split in MPI. MMR: There were splits. JJ: Like, general splitting, (inaudible)? MMR: There were splits, but usually they were conscious of who’s the enemy, and they were -- it’s not like Martin Luther King, when he would go and somebody would go and try and find a job at the SCLC, and he would go to the local FBI office and he’d say, “Would you see if this guy is good or not?” Never think of that. This guy’s the enemy. You don’t go to the FBI for anything. They are the enemy. We knew who the enemy was, and we knew they were attacking. [01:04:00] Something like the American Indian Movement. I never saw anything of going and vetting this guy. No. They knew who the enemy was. They knew it was the FBI, CIA, whatever. It was the Yankee. They knew that. And so, they were going to defend against the Yankee, and they would pull ranks. Sometimes this happened, sometimes -- one of the most glaring references that I found in my work was Juan Angel Silén? Juan Angel Silén in 1967, I think he was head of FUPI, two or three organizations. He was also in MPI. He was also the young guy that they put in charge of the first plebiscite, which is interesting because the FBI intervened in that plebiscite actively. And Silén, what they did was Silén didn’t have a car. Juan Mari had a car, but it was like the community car. Juan 29 �Mari would lend it out to anybody because Juan Mari [01:05:00] was the kind of leader that he would command, but he would go. And he was the first one to go. And he would go to every barrio, and he would go to every micro meeting, and he would be there. Very little private life as I could see during those days. He would, you know, not like some leaders that command and sit back, and “You guys will do it, I’ll sit back here.” No, no, no. Juan Mari commanded and went. Mando e fue. And then, what happened in ’67 with Silén was, that the FBI and it’s in the papers, went to Detroit, Michigan and got the key to the Ford, whatever it was, something Ford that Juan Mari had, used the key to enter the car and put some very [01:06:00] compromising papers in there. It’s a snitch jacket, is what it’s called. JJ: Snitch? MMR: Snitch jacket, where you take somebody who is really with the organization and try to prove that he is (break in audio) and the big snitch jacket that I found in the papers was Juan Angel Silén. And what the FBI did was they put a series of papers in Juan Mari’s car so that Juan Mari would find it and think that Silén was a snitch jacket. But Juan Mari was a very tolerant and astute leader. He read the papers, he called in Silén, and said, “Silén, this was planted by the FBI. They’re after you. They want us to separate.” Okay? And the papers were based on a series of legitimate differences that Juan Angel Silén and Juan Mari had. Because at that point in time, the youth were saying that the MPI was [01:07:00] too bourgeois. And they were with Mao, they were Maoist. So, what they did was they made a pact, and they said, “We will not separate. We will not 30 �look at our differences until after the plebiscite,” which was in July 1967. “We will continue with our campaign to boycott the plebiscite,” which is a very successful campaign. PIP joined in that campaign. And that is also interesting because the FBI had a stool pigeon in PIP. He was Concepción de Gracia’s chauffeur. So, they knew everything that Concepción de Gracia was doing. And Concepción de Gracia and Juan Mari Brás had not spoken to each other for years. But in 1966, when the plebiscite came along, Juan Mari went to Concepción’s house, [01:08:00] and they made common cause. And there’s a very famous FBI paper saying, “We have to split this up,” whatever. And they did. They tried to do it. They also got this university professor, Hector Alvarez Silva, to run the plebiscite. And Hector Alvarez Silva did. The rumor is, and I’ve never been able to verify this, that they held something over Hector Alvarez Silva’s head, concerning one of his sons. I’ve heard it from five or six people, but it’s never been truly confirmed. And that that’s why he ran a campaign, but it wasn’t really a campaign. It was just something there so that independence would appear in that plebiscite. But the history of repression in Puerto Rico is great. Is great. And I think this [01:09:00] CONINTELFILE or COINETLPRO film should have a second part which goes to Puerto Rico. And I don’t know, I feel like I’m like a lot of Puerto Ricans that were raised on the island comfortably. When we go to the United States and confront what’s happening there and the limitations they put, because I always felt like it was something that they were trying to limit my possibilities to do what I wanted, this box that they put in -- you know, you are a minority. I remember when I was in UT, one of the professors, a really nice 31 �liberal professor -- I mean, he didn’t do this on purpose -- he introduced me to another professor from another department, and he said, “Maria is our Puerto Rican professor.” So, the next time I had to introduce him, I said, “Bill is our white professor.” [01:10:00] And he looked at me like, “What did I do?” And it was not conscious on his part. He didn’t want to offend me. And, you know, I kept on saying, “Listen, man, I don’t have Puerto Rican tattooed on my forehead. Because I am Puerto Rican, I do a whole bunch of things because that’s my culture and that’s the way I do it. But I don’t represent all of Puerto Rico. I’m just me.” But they kept on trying to put you in this box of minority. I don’t know if that happened to you, Cha-Cha, you were raised there. But to me, it was chocante. JJ: I don’t know, when we were (inaudible). MMR: It was chocante. And I don’t think I would have been radicalized, maybe I would have been radicalized if I’d gone to the UPI. But going to the US radicalized me, showed me that we were different. We were not part of that empire. They were not us, you know? [01:11:00] And it’s not a bad thing that I’m saying. I’m not anti-Yankee. I can’t be. I go to sleep with a Yankee next to me all for the past 35 years. But I’m different. I like the difference. You know? it’s not that I don’t like you, it’s just that I like what I am. I like the difference. I like being from an island. I like the fact that when I go up north and it’s dead winter, I get desperate because I don’t see any light, you know? I like it. I like to be what I am. But the Young Lords, for me, was a learning experience. It was a big learning experience. First of all, we had a very good leader. Tony Baez. Oh, Antonio Baez, PhD. [01:12:00] 32 �JJ: The University of Milwaukee, right? MMR: Milwaukee, yes. JJ: (inaudible) MMR: And we went to, as far as I can remember, in my memory, this is what, 40 years, 50 years ago? JJ: Yeah, seems right. MMR: Casi, casi. We went to two big demonstrations. We went to one in New York, which we went to -- like I said, we went to Chicago in this Volkswagen. You weren’t there. And we went to New York for a UN thing. We also went to New York for -- and I don’t know if you were there or not, because we went in several cars. JJ: No, I heard about the big demonstration in New York. MMR: Okay. But we went to a Puerto Rican Day parade. JJ: In Chicago. MMR: No. Well, I think we went to one in Chicago, but we also went to one in New York. Were you there? JJ: No, no, no. I missed a few things. [01:13:00] (laughter) MMR: I remember those two demonstrations. I remember going to Chicago for, I think it was a Puerto Rican Day parade where we marched military style, Young Lords, putting on that -- our hat was black. At least that’s what I had. Our hat was black. JJ: It might have been New York, (inaudible) but we did march in Chicago, also. MMR: Yeah. And I remember going to the funeral. Okay. 33 �JJ: We had a very big (inaudible) in Chicago (inaudible), during the Days of Rage of SDS. MMR: Okay. Yeah, yeah. During that trial. JJ: The trial of Bobby Seale? MMR: Bobby Seale’s trial, right. JJ: Oh, no. We weren’t in Chicago. We were (inaudible). MMR: Okay. We went to that trial, but it was so packed. We never got in. JJ: Right, we were outside. MMR: Okay. We were outside. So, packed, we never got in. We went there. I think I saw you twice. [01:14:00] JJ: So, I was there. I was there.(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) MMR: I think one of the times was you showed us the breakfast program at the church in the Armitage. JJ: Dayton and Armitage, yeah. MMR: Yeah. Then I later found out that the reverend and his family were killed. JJ: The Reverend Bruce Johnson was murdered, and it’s still a cold case, we still don’t know what happened, stabbed about 17 times, and his wife nine times. MMR: Oh, I remember him. And I remember the breakfast program, and I remember that they told us that the Black Panthers had help you set it up. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) MMR: I remember some kind of meeting with Mark Hampton. JJ: Fred Hampton. 34 �MMR: Fred Hampton. Did we go to some meeting with Fred Hampton where Fred Hampton spoke? JJ: We went to several meetings (inaudible). MMR: Okay. I remember some kind of meeting with Fred Hampton. [01:15:00] Because I remember seeing him in person. In the Young Lords in Milwaukee, I was just one of many. I would come in from Marquette for the meetings. When Tony Baez said to do something, I would do it. The big thing that we did in Milwaukee that still stands today is we picketed. I don’t remember if he picketed every day, or if it was just one day a week. But I would come in one day a week from Marquette. I would take the bus. And I remember being on a picket with Tony Baez. Sometimes it was Tony Baez and I, and two more. Sometimes it was a lot of people. But he was a persistent cuss, very persistent. And he got what it was called the Spanish Outreach Center, which is a program for Puerto Ricans to go at UWM in Milwaukee, which still goes today. And Tony Baez was the first director for many, many years. [01:16:00] And the program worked because I met many Puerto Ricans that went through this program where they would get into the university, they would give them tutoring, they would give them help, they would give them help with correction of English, all sorts of help so that the student could progress and finish. And I know a whole bunch of people that did. I know that Baez is not there anymore. JJ: (inaudible) MMR: In the year 2000, I went back, and I was very disappointed. Tony Baez wasn’t there anymore. The people that were at the Spanish or at whatever it’s called 35 �now, were what I call professional Puerto Ricans. Not Puerto Ricans that are professional, but that their profession is to be Puerto Rican. [01:17:00] (laughter) JJ: To raise funding? To get money or what? MMR: No, you see them in academia sometimes. You see them in administrations of universities sometimes. JJ: (inaudible) MMR: No, but haven’t you seen them? Haven’t you kind of come across people that, you know, their thing in life is to be Puerto Rican, to be a professional Puerto Rican and to grab that job because of that? JJ: It’s like we call them poverty pimps. But now, it’s professional Puerto Rican. MMR: For me, it was a professional Puerto Rican. I walked in, asked for their program, stuff like that. They completely ignored me. They wouldn’t attend me. I was just one of many. I have three kids that went through UWM, and they tell me that sometimes the program worked for them, sometimes it didn’t. It was much more of a social thing. That wasn’t why we picketed for a whole year, [01:18:00] sun, rain and snow. We picketed for a social justice program where our folks could get through UWM and become professionals. Not for somebody to have fiesta here and fiesta there. And I was just very disappointed. I went a second time with one of my friends that’s a professor there. And when he introduced me as doctor, it worked. (laughs) But since I never use it -- I would say it was very disappointing. It was like, you know, why did I picket all those hours? Why did I freeze my toes off for this if this is what it comes out to be 20 years later? But then I saw Tony Baez, and he’s the head, or he’s the principal of a school for kids 36 �[01:19:00] that don’t make it in any other high school in Milwaukee. And he’s doing a great job. And he brings people in to talk on architecture and a whole bunch of stuff. And it kind of redeemed it for me. So, that’s it. JJ: Any final, final thoughts, anything I’ve forgotten? MMR: Final thoughts? Well, I think my ambition is to be like Juan Mari. My ambition is to stay in the fight for independence and social justice until I close my eyes. You know, my ambition -- I think that this young generation has a lot to teach us. They have a lot of things that they know that the old folks don’t know. And I don’t see them as being, you know, my grandchildren or my children and pat, pat. No, I see them as companeros and companeras. And I’m so happy [01:20:00] to say companeras, because there are women coming in. And I see that I can learn from them, and they can learn from me, and we’re on an even keel here. JJ: So, you’re not talking about retiring, and handing over the torch? MMR: No, no. I like my life. I like my life. I’m 65. JJ: Them joining with you or you joining with them? MMR: Yeah, sometimes on a picket, I’m the oldest one. But I remember when we went to -- when Obama came, we took over el Morro. JJ: I feel like they didn’t make plans (inaudible). MMR: What? JJ: I feel like they didn’t make plans (inaudible). MMR: Yeah. I mean, Obama came, we took over el Morro. We had a group of people inside. We were supposed to make a fuss outside, a big fuss outside, so that the people would think that the action was outside. We were supposed to make a 37 �big fuss. My part in this, [01:21:00] as I was explained by my FUPI colleagues and [Menjesquala?] colleagues, was to walk through San Juan with two banners and a bullhorn so that people wouldn’t see it. So, I, old lady walked from one end of San Juan to the other with the pancarta and bullhorn and the conciernas, the chants that we were going to say. And I was supposed to give the pancarta to the young folks, I was supposed to give the bullhorn to one of the girls, and they were supposed to proceed on from there. And I was supposed to go to the side and watch on. That was my role. When I get there, I can visually see -- if I had been somebody that was watching, [01:22:00] I could see, I could point out all the people that were going to go to the demonstration. I thought, don’t send folks, you know, young people that don’t know how to fly kites. So, I sit there with my sandwich and my book and I’m reading. I had a fabulous time with the breeze of el Morro, and everything. When it comes time, I go, I hand the bullhorn over. We pull out the pancarta. I go to this one girl, I said, “Okay, this is your job. I’m leaving.” “No, no, I can’t do it.” You know, I go, [efopista?]? They can’t chant? Que lo que pasa que? And I will go to the next girl. “Hey, here, this is what you’ve got to do.” “No, no, I can’t do it. I’m scared.” And I go to the next girl. “Oh, no.” So, it ends up old lady screaming her guts out in front of el Morro with all these young people around me. That was not supposed to be. I was not supposed to do that. And then finally, after half an hour of screaming, one of the girls [01:23:00] got up enough courage and came over. “I can do it now.” But I feel that maybe that was my role. You know, what can they do to an old lady? Put her in jail? Make her the heroina nacional? [01:23:16] You know, what can 38 �they do to me now? Okay? My future is what? It’s the struggle. I live for the struggle. The struggle gives me youth. I’m not at home cleaning my house -which by the way, is dirty -- doing nothing, or reading a book. I get to go to the pickets in San Juan. I get to go to the communities and help them out with their problems. I get to go and do a whole bunch of things that I’ve wanted to do for years, but I couldn’t do because I was raising a family. I think the revolution starts at home. Yes. When I was raising my family, I did very few things. [01:24:00] But the family’s raised. I think it’s time for the old MPI folks, the old PSP folks that are now getting Social Security, not to sit in their houses and rot, but to come out and help. Our country is falling apart. Fortuño has been the worst thing that we could get. I mean, our young are leaving. I’ve got three kids in Milwaukee. I want them back. They want to come back. They don’t like it there. They were raised here. And I think it’s time for us to take up the fight again. What are you going to do? How are they going to affect you? Are they going to take away your Social Security? What? Yeah. JJ: So, I was going to ask you the same question, so that’s what you feel that we should be focusing right now, [01:25:00] people should be focusing, like the people on Social Security or other people. As a movement, what do you think we should focus on? MMR: I think that we cannot leave our young people alone. I mean, the fight that the young people here gave at the University of Puerto Rico for a whole year in Río Piedras and in Mayagüez. JJ: What was that fight? 39 �MMR: That was a fight against an up in tuition, against whatchamacallit, making the university smaller and more technical, against freedom of saying things, but mostly against tuition. A tuition hike plus 800 dollars. Those guys in Río Piedras, the marvelous things they would do. I mean, the imagination that those students used. And then the repression by the police. JJ: What did they do? I mean, I heard that they took over -- MMR: Oh, they had street theater. They would go and go visit people’s houses. [01:26:00] They would do a whole bunch of things that were out of the ordinary. And I think that it was our place to back up the students. In Mayagüez, we did. I know a whole bunch of my friends, some of them were statehooders, but they were frustrated. Some of them were [populares?]. And we would go to the nine gates at the university, and at least once or twice a week, give them food. We would go every day to give them coffee and donuts. We would be with them in their marches. We would be there. I remember one march in Mayagüez, to me, it was marvelous. And it was a learning experience. One march in Mayagüez, we were on the military road in front of the college. The police come with horses, and they throw the horses at us. And so, we take the [01:27:00] [Ming bang?] and put it right in front of the horses’ eyes, and we’re like this. And we got the horses to retreat because of this one lousy banner. And it was. And then to my surprise, first of all, I wasn’t used to walking the military road in Mayagüez. That’s the highway. I mean, you go in the car, you don’t walk down the middle of the street. Very few marches you walk down. So, I wasn’t used to that. It was a new experience for me. I loved it. And then to actually make them retreat, and 40 �then they came in motorcycles. And this one motorcycle guy came, and we were at the end of the march, and we were protecting the students with our banner. Me, the old folks, and me. And we were preventing them from coming in and cutting the march up. And this one guy comes and steps on my foot with his motorcycle. And so, I go back, and I said, [01:28:00] “You’ve got to go, and you’ve got to (break in audio) apologize to your grandmother, kid.” “What?” I says, “Because you stepped on an old lady.” And he said, “You’ve got to be home.” I said, “No, no, my place is to be here and to protect these guys against you.” Then I found out that his name is Inocencio Reyes and he’s from Mayagüez. So, every time I see a motorcycle cop in Mayagüez, they all know each other, I go, “Saludo hachencho. Saludo hachencho.” “Yes, abuelita.” But to me, it fascinates me. It fascinates me that you can get away with doing things now that you couldn’t get away with doing [01:29:00] when you were young. Because they don’t expect it. As this guy said, he expected me to be home crocheting and I’m not home crocheting. And I think that we cannot leave our youth alone. We cannot leave our unions alone to fight against the laws like [law seven?], where we get 30,000 people put out of the job. And then I’ve never seen corruption as up close and personal, and as crass and out in the open as we’re seeing in Puerto Rico today. Never, never. And I get frustrated -JJ: How are we seeing it? MMR: How are we seeing it? Elections. You know it’s bad when the statehooders have to rig a [01:30:00] party primary. I mean, you know, it’s bad. You know it’s bad when, in Guaynabo, when they take a census in Guaynabo, and they have the 41 �heads of departments going to the different people that work in Guaynabo and that don’t live in Guaynabo and have them moving to these addresses that they found that had no people living in them. You know it’s bad. They’re doing it against their own folks. If they do it against their own folks, what have they done against us? You know it’s bad when you hear that the first lady of Puerto Rico -and I’m a feminist -- has a law practice of signing mortgages, closing mortgage closings, which she makes millions of dollars with, and which she has taken the money away from other lawyers, and which she thinks is correct to do. She wasn’t doing it before she was the first lady. Is that ethical? You know [01:31:00] it’s corrupt when you have the senator from Mayagüez who doesn’t seem to have a brain in her body. Why did she get to be senator? Because of her physical appearance? Yes, she is very pretty. But that’s not the qualifications that I have for a senator. Pretty is incidental. Brains is just, you have to have it. And I don’t like brains that all that you do is to follow orders. I mean, you know there’s corruption when you have a whatchamacallit, when you have an election for the community representative from the electric company and they come in with [01:32:00] a box full of votes that’s so neatly packed and has rubber bands against it and goes completely against the trend of two companeros that we made a campaign for. I mean, what are they doing? What are they doing when they allow police to torture? Because that’s what they did to the university students when they locked arms in front of the gates. They would come in and press the [caroti?], I don’t know how you say that in English, which causes pain. 42 �JJ: Carotid. MMR: That is torture. When you allow torture, you know, that’s corruption. You know that’s antidemocratic. I mean, if you saw, the other day, they took away the folks from Plaza del Sol in Madrid. Madrid. And they didn’t use that tactic. They’ve never used it. In none of the [desausio?], the [de sa lohos?] [01:33:00] of the different occupy, have they used that tactic. They used it here. Who taught them? Why were they taught? Why? Why in June of 2010, did they go and they nightstick, [macanasos?] to the university students that all they wanted to do was give a letter to the legislature of Puerto Rico? They target women. I thought it was poetic justice when the goons from the riot squad were at their hotel, and the floorboards that were rotten gave way and they all fell down to the first floor. But never, never in the history of Puerto Rico have we seen a government that [01:34:00] is as corrupt as Fortuño. And he doesn’t care. I mean, born and bred in Puerto Rico; he wants to be American. He’s a Guaynabito. JJ: Guaynabito? MMR: From Guaynabo. These folks that have no love for Puerto Rico. Guaynabo is the richest municipality on the island. And so, you call them Guaynabitos. You know, he doesn’t know what it is to be a Puerto Rican. He doesn’t want to be a Puerto Rican. He’s ashamed of being a Puerto Rican. He’s a Republican. He has so many contradictions on him, it isn’t funny. Every weekend he goes to the US. For my beans, he should go up there. [01:35:00] And if he wants to be by the president, fine. Go do to the empire what you did in Puerto Rico. JJ: We’ll support you in that. 43 �MMR: We’ll support you in that. (laughs) JJ: Okay, anything else? MMR: No, I’m talking too much. JJ: Thank you very much. (break in audio) MMR: It was a Young Lords name? JJ: A Young Lord is what they call it. MMR: Okay, I remember that Tony was like a -JJ: He called it (inaudible) MMR: Okay, that’s why I can’t remember what it was. JJ: Yeah, which is the name (inaudible) and then the other one that said, I don’t like that, I want [Ariana Hor?], and I (inaudible) because I had to do it for record, but I just wanted everything the same thing. (inaudible) MMR: Well, I remember he would write most of the articles. JJ: Tony Baez would put the paper together. MMR: Would put the paper together, and sometimes he didn’t have enough time. He was amazing. He was amazing. He was doing a lot of things and sometimes he didn’t have the time, and he’d hand me the paper. Or [01:36:00] he’d call me up or something and I would go and correct the paper. And when I didn’t know how to correct, I would go to a friend of mine that was at the U of Chicago, and who was taking Spanish, and she would. So, it was a very well written paper. JJ: Oh yeah. It was a pretty good paper, yeah. MMR: Yeah, I remember that. 44 �JJ: And then you said you went to the church, (inaudible) MMR: I went to the church. I remember and I don’t know if my memory is right or not, of you explaining the breakfast program. That was one of the times. But it was a group. This is the first time I meet you one on one because I was always in the background. And in Milwaukee I would always come in when called, or when a march or something like that. And that was my thing. I remember Milwaukee worked [01:37:00] a lot with the Brown Berets. JJ: (inaudible) remember MMR: I remember [La Lovaldez?] and I remember this guy whose name was [Jesse Tages?] he was “Jeep”. And I was a VISTA volunteer for a summer, and I kept getting beat up by Polish women and they put Jeep as my bodyguard. I remember that. I remember working at a place called United Spot, which our friend Juan remembered the United Spot. I remember we were supposed to give coffee and stuff to the youth and give them books and stuff, but they didn’t want it. (laughs) END OF VIDEO FILE 45 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/03470fd3f9ec3539f5ee5cadf65098cd.mp4 f16df1c53da4fe14946d9ec92ed537b4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Marie Merrill Ramirez vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Marie Merrill Ramirez a trabajado como activista para la comunidad y la sección de Young Lords en Milwaukee por mucho tiempo. Ayudo con los problemas de la vecindario en el norte y el sur de la cuidad, enfocándose en estabilizando educación bilingüe en las escuelas. Ahora vive en Mayagüez, Puerto Rico donde sigue advocando para la autodeterminación de Puertorriqueños. Durante la huelga de estudiantes en 2010-2011, que fue la huelga mas larga y grande en la historia de Puerto Rico, Marie Ramirez tomo parte y trabajo con otros en coaliciones de uniones de trabajo, profesores, estudiantes, y activistas dentro de Puerto Rico. El gobierno tuvo que dejar la tarifa que iba doblar el costo de atender la universidad. Pero la victoria más significante fue que le movimiento de estudiantes forzó que el gobierno se sentara en la mesa de negaciones. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Ramirez_Marie Title A name given to the resource Marie Merrill Ramirez interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ramirez, Marie Description An account of the resource Marie Merrill Ramirez is a long-time community activist from the Milwaukee chapter of the Young Lords. She was actively involved with many neighborhood issues both on the north and south sides of the city, focusing especially on supporting of bi-lingual education efforts. She now lives in Mayagüez, Puerto Rico where she continues to advocate for Puerto Rican self-determination. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb16c66afd6f7a61772dddb9cd137acd.pdf c277747b37f1ecc39e8294e9c01c7f41 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Gamaliel Ramirez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/11/2012 Biography and Description English Gamaliel Ramirez was born in 1949 in South Bronx, New York to recently arrived immigrant parents. Their family moved to Chicago in 1955. He attended the Peabody School on Augusta just east of Ashland and west of I-94, which then divided the Puerto Rican community in half, with Old Town, Lakeview and Lincoln Park on the east, and Wicker Park and Humboldt Park on the west. Although Mr. Ramirez was never a member, he hung around with the Latin Kings and with the Young Lords. Struggling with undiagnosed dyslexia, Mr. Ramirez was forced out of school when he was 16 years old. It was then that he decided to teach himself how to paint, visiting the Art Institute of Chicago to study the paintings of European, and later the American and Latin American, masters. Mr. Ramirez became one of the pioneers of the Chicago-based Latino Art Movement and has exhibited his paintings nationally and internationally. Mr. Ramirez’s brother, Eddie Ramirez, was Assistant Coordinator in charge of precincts during the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign. Gamaliel Ramirez volunteered to work with the Latin Eagles and Young Lords to clean up the area and stop the flow of drugs in the then well- established open drug market of Wilton and Grace Streets. The Young Lords brokered a deal with the Latin Eagles to clean up the graffiti �in the neighborhood in return for Mr. Ramirez assisting them to paint their Latin Eagle -- an Eagle and Puerto Rican Flag symbol -- on the wall in their Wilton and Grace neighborhood. Mr. Ramirez also led the painting of murals at the Young Lords office, both outside and inside. Spanish Gamaliel Ramirez nació en 1949 en South Bronx, Nueva York a padres que acababan de inmigrarse. Su familia so mudo a Chicago en 1955. Atendió la escuela de Peabody, en Augusta que era este de Ashland y oeste del I-94. En este tiempo el I-94 separaba la comunidad en dos partes, el Old Town, Lakeview y Lincoln Park en el este, y Wicker Park y Humboldt Park en el oeste. Señor Ramirez nunca fue un miembro de los Latin Kings o de los Young Lords si era amigos con unos de los miembros. Luchando con dislexia, Señor Ramirez fue forzado ah abandonar la escuela cuando tiene 16 años. Era en este momento que decidió aprender a pintar, visito el Art Institute of Chicago para aprender sobre las pinturas Europeos y luego fue con maestros para aprender sobre las pinturas Americana y Americana Latina. Señor Ramirez fue uno de los primeros de ser parte del Movimiento de Arte Latino en Chicago, y expone su arte nacional igual que internacionalmente. El hermano Señor Ramirez, Eddie Ramirez, era el coordinador asistente que estaba en cargo distritos durante la Campaña de Alderman para Jiménez. Gamaliel Ramirez ofreció trabajar con los Latin Eagles y Young Lords para limpiar la aria de drogas que en este tiempo había cambio de drogas en simple vista en las calles de Wilton y Grace Street. Los Young Lords hicieron un acuerdo con los Latin Eagles para limpiar el graffiti en el vecindario. Señor Ramirez también fue un líder en pintar los murales en la oficina de los Young Lords, por dentro y por fuera. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Where were we? GAMALIEL RAMIREZ: Well, everything, with doing the murals and doing the whole community, involved in things that I -JJ: Involved, what’s that like, involved? GR: Yeah, things I’m involved in. JJ: How did you involve? (inaudible) GR: Well, a lot of the time, I was doing community work and work in my community. I was also studying art. I was always going to the Art Institute and studying what’s going on, reading books. JJ: (inaudible) GR: I was self-taught. Just, I look at it this way. I used to go and study the masters, so I claimed that the masters taught me how to paint, although they were dead and I didn’t have a conversation with them. But by looking at their work is what I studied, and then by studying them, I evolved into my own thing (overlapping dialogue). JJ: You mentioned Vincent van Gogh. GR: Vincent van Gogh, Picasso. Also, later on, I got very much into the Latin American scene too. I think I visited about 10 murals in Mexico, [00:01:00] Orozco, Siqueiros, Rivera. I actually go to Mexico just to see the murals. I traveled to all different parts of Mexico, looking at the murals, checking them out, learning, because you can see the photographs, and they’re incredible, but when 1 �you see the real painting, it’s just mind-blowing. It’s nothing like the photographs. The photographs are small. You don’t see so many details. You don’t see brushstrokes. You don’t see the whole thing, you know? But when you go to see the Mexican murals in Mexico live, then you learn a lot about the -JJ: The detail? GR: You learn a lot about what the artist was dealing with, yeah, his style and stuff like that. And of course, I also went to San Francisco to check out the murals, LA, check out the murals. I tried to check some out in New York. Everywhere I’d go, I’d try to learn the history of the local movement. In San Francisco, they got a strong movement, and I spent time here off and on with a friend of mine, (inaudible). You probably know him from the old days, and [00:02:00] he’s out there painting murals, and I stayed with him. He knows everybody over there. He’s been there that long. So, I’m always studying. (inaudible) a little better before. Economically, we were doing better. The travel was a little cheaper. With 100 bucks, I could drive my car all the way to LA. You can’t do that no more. (laughs) And the flights are more expensive now. I don't know, what did it cost you to come over here? JJ: We got here with the school, so it was 200 dollars. GR: Round trip? JJ: Yeah. GR: For each one? JJ: Yeah. 2 �GR: That’s good. No, I gotta do some research, but I was thinking of going there next month or not. I’m put in a situation where I need to get registered with a hospital, and I need to find an apartment. I need to do other stuff, so I really can’t travel yet, so I’m thinking maybe just travel later. It’s nothing [00:03:00] that important. I’m painting my storage place in Chicago, so that’s the only thing that I got over there that’s important, and I miss my friends, but I got new ones here. I gotta make new ones eventually. JJ: Didn’t you have a community agency that you were teaching for a while? GR: Urban Gateways. Well, yeah, ironically, I was kicked out of school, out of grammar school, eighth grade, never made it to high school. But as soon as I started teaching in the community and working with the gangs, working with the churches, working with the schools, I got popular in that sense, and then they hired me, Urban Gateways, through some influences from the Latino Board of Directors that screamed that, “There’s no Latinos in your program.” And they said, “Well, find us some qualified ones, and we’ll hire them.” So, my name was submitted, and not only that, David was already there. JJ: David Hernández. GR: Right. And then from there, José del Rios came and the Maria de (inaudible). Then we saw more Latinos started getting in. I was like the second Puerto Rican there. [00:04:00] For 25 years, I’ve always worked having an agency (inaudible). I always worked on my own, freelancing, but I also worked in the schools. After they threw me out, I went back to the schools and worked with them for 25 years, teaching grammar school from kindergarten to eighth grade and high schools. 3 �And when I left, when I got my cancer and emphysema and all that, and I had to give it up, I was working every day at different schools, working for After School Matters with Maggie Daley’s program, and then I was working for Urban Gateways for 25 years. JJ: So, you said you got cancer and emphysema. GR: I got cancer and emphysema all at the same time it hit me sort of. JJ: Is it in remission or--? GR: Well, the cancer’s in remission, but that’s why [00:05:00] I’m saying I gotta hook up with the hospital system here to make sure that it’s at bay, that it’s not messing with me now. The last time I had cancer, the main thing that it did to me was that it didn’t let me produce blood, so I was walking around with three pints of blood and didn’t know it for four months, and I was falling everywhere. I was bumping my head on every wall at Adrian’s? house. (laughs) I was collapsing everywhere, and we didn’t know what that was all about, until one time I collapsed in the hospital, and they took me to the ER, and they checked me out, and they says, “You know, you only got three pints of blood. We’re gonna have to give you blood.” And after all that, after four months with struggling with it, I mean, I was crawling through my chemo. I crawled through radiation. I crawled through the whole process because nobody knew that I was missing blood, and that was the reason why I couldn’t get up, I couldn’t stand up. I’d stand up and fall down. My students had to pick me up. So, after that, they told me I had [00:06:00] emphysema, so they retired me. They gave me social security. Ironically, the social security check is what I get normally, and then I starve half 4 �the time because I didn’t work in the summer, and I didn’t work on the holidays, but with social security, I’m doing better because I get a check regardless if it’s summer, holiday, whatever. I still get that check every month, and it’s about the same amount that I was making with them, but there was parts that I didn’t have no income, like all summer. It was rough. I just did some freelance work here and there. And then Christmas, there was no jobs. There was many times at Christmas, I didn’t have no money to buy gifts for my daughter. I was really feeling terrible about that, but that’s how it was. Now I get the steady check all the time, and if I’m painting a painting, don’t tell nobody. (laughter) You can’t prove that. JJ: Yeah, you have your ways, man. GR: (laughs) No, so I make [00:07:00] a little bit of extra income that way, no big thing though. It’s not to the point where they’re going to -- JJ: Chump change. GR: Yeah, it’s chump change, exactly. It just gets me through the end of the month, which I enjoy. I enjoy that because everything that I painted, Puerto Rico, that I -- JJ: There’s only so much money in that city. GR: Right. JJ: (inaudible) GR: Right. Poverty is 17,000, so if you go over 17,000 -- JJ: You’re on Social Security, you’re in the poverty range. GR: Yes, in poverty. I was in poverty when I was working. (laughs) I was working still. I was in poverty when I was working. 5 �JJ: You’ve done a lot of volunteer work for a lot of organizations, at the Daley Center. GR: Yeah, and I’ve done murals for half price. JJ: Right. All your life. GR: All my life, I’ve been donating. They call it “donation”. JJ: And that was (inaudible) or in person? GR: Yeah. You know what I do now, if you go to my murals in Chicago, [00:08:00] you’ll see that it is also funded -- JJ: We had a lot of politicians helping the Young Lords, and I had appreciated that. GR: Right. Yeah, a lot of people are donating. The last piece that I donated, that painting of [congelo?] that I did to the Haitian cause. When they call Gallery, the Black Gallery of Chicago, she did a fundraiser for the people of Haiti, so I donated a painting, and that brought in 700 dollars. It was worth twice as much, but I’m happy that I was able to do something. And I just got out of the hospital. JJ: So, you still do some shows. GR: Well, down in Chicago, I have a show. I did some drawings, and I sent them to them, and they’re showing my work. JJ: And they are showing it? GR: Yeah. And then I just did that thing on Channel 11. They showed a lot of my work here. They interviewed me, and they talk about my work. JJ: What was the name of that thing on Channel 11? What was that? GR: Oh, I can’t remember. JJ: Was it like a video? [00:09:00] 6 �GR: Yeah, it’s a video of low-income housing artists, and I was one of them that wanted to move into the space, so I got on. They loved my -- they needed artwork because -- JJ: The low-income artists in Chicago, you’re saying? GR: Yeah. JJ: On Bloomingdale Street? GR: It was [NNWAC?] that did it, the Near NorthWest Arts Council, on Bloomingdale, and the building project was called ACME, and like I say about it, it was done upside-down, so to speak, and because of that, I was ousted out of the program. They pushed me out, so to speak. I mean, I put down payment, but I had to do several things to qualify to get the low-income money. Because I couldn’t do that immediately, they put somebody else into my place. And I just said, “Forget about it,” and so I (inaudible), and I’m like, “Oh, there’s so much (inaudible) going on,” and half the people there are not real artists, so I didn’t feel very comfortable. They had some real good artists in there, [00:10:00] like [Daniel’s?] in there. I have to give that. They do have some artists in there that are very good and very prolific, but there are some artists there that are not really art -they’re art teachers who they’ve been teaching forever. They don’t have to be selling their work. They don’t have to be showing. They’re involved (inaudible). Anyway, I left that, and during that time, I was living in south Chicago. I had moved to south Chicago for five years, so I pretty much knew the city. JJ: So, when you were in south Chicago, you were donating work out there. 7 �GR: Yes, I did projects over there with the community organizations. Some of them are published, very well known. They’re published on the internet, and they’re published in books, Chicago Public Arts Group. They liked the work, and they used it for their books. They never funded me. I did it on my own with the agencies, but it’s several of them. They’re very well done and still intact, very beautiful. [00:11:00] Everybody loves that work, and I’m real proud of it. But I did murals in Benito Juarez High School also, 18th Street. I’ve done in the Black communities, like Kanoon School, I did a really nice mural in the gym, “It Takes a Whole Village,” a nice painting of, you know, Africans, Afro-American community, schools all over the place, Catholic schools, all these, St. Mary’s, St. Sebastian in the lunch room. So, I did it with the kids. At St. Pius, in their lunch room, there’s one at St. Pius. So, all over the city, I was doing the murals with the Urban Gateways. I would go in for 10 weeks. Then we’d started planning and organizing, and I taught people the basic stuff, basic lessons, and from there, we’d come up with a concept, and we’d paint them. [00:12:00] And I would get one class to paint for an hour. The other class would paint for an hour. The other class would paint for an hour. Then I’m outta there, right? Then, I’d put in a few touches here and there, boom, got a mural, and they’d hang ’em. They’d put up really nice panels. They gave me a few dollars for building the panels, and I would take them to the school, paint them real nice, and they’d hang them on their walls, so they’re still there. Stockton Elementary in Uptown, I spent six months working on a project there with the principal there, with -- what was her 8 �name -- Deborah Esparza. She was from Lakeview also. I met her there. And I ran to her, and she told me, “Why don’t you come to my school?” JJ: What’s her name? GR: Deborah Esparza. She’s got a doctor’s degree, so she was at Stockton Elementary in Uptown. JJ: She’s in Puerto Rico now? GR: No, she’s still teaching. I think she’s a district supervisor. She was a young principal with a doctor’s degree, so she was moving up when I first met her, [00:13:00] so she’s a supervisor now in Uptown in that area. But there’s a really nice mural in there in the hallways as you walk to the auditorium. Helen Shiller was there. I got some Greeley Elementary School, across the street from Gill Park. There’s two murals facing the community, out to the community, that I did with them. I did several murals. That was the last job that I had. I actually was doing a few murals. You know, they came out so beautiful, sometimes I felt so sad because people would steal them, teachers. They got ’em in their rec room or something. JJ: They’ll take ’em? GR: They’ll take them. They say, “What happened to the mural?” (laughter) JJ: It was a painting or a mural? GR: Well, right, we’d put ’em on panels. Then we’d put ’em outside. I’d done that in south Chicago and at Greeley Elementary. I used a technique that I had to learn real fast how to use because it was cheaper than painting the wall, and I wouldn’t [00:14:00] have to take the kids up there. We could do it all ground level. 9 �JJ: Because you were doing these murals with the kids. GR: Yeah. We would design the concepts and put them together and then paint them with a group of special kids, after-school programs basically. JJ: After-school programs, that was with people who have gang -- GR: Greeley was an interesting school because gangs -- it was just cream of the crop. That school got the Blue Ribbon Award, the National Blue Ribbon Award, for one of the best schools in the country. That school got that, so that wasn’t a gang program, but over there with the high school, Kelvyn Park High School, now that’s different. That was people who are trying to get the gangbangers into making art and stuff. It was difficult. I had a lot of success with the Latino kids from Latin America. They’re very polite, very well mannered, and they love to do things. They all love work. They love [00:15:00] to work, so they all work. Some of the gang guys, as soon as you try to get them to work, they just give you a hard time and give you dirty looks and then walk away. So, it’s hard. That’s the question. JJ: But you did do some prevention because they’re being able to do something before they went into that. GR: Yeah, might’ve. Yeah, there’s a lot of kids who also became artists. JJ: (inaudible) GR: Yeah. There’s a lot of kids became artists eventually. I had students that became artists, and apparently they didn’t get into gangs and stuff like that. But the gangs are overwhelming the schools over there. You know the problem in Chicago in the ghetto. It’s overwhelming. It’s not exactly an easy thing. And part 10 �of it is not so much us or them. It’s more the system is what creates these problems. You know what I’m saying? JJ: What do you mean? GR: Well, it’s too top heavy. [00:16:00] The administration is very top heavy. They run all the schools. By the time the money trickles down to the schools for extra services and stuff like that, it trickles down, and they don’t get much of it. And now, the way the money is set up, they get the money from property values, so if you’re in the ghetto, what kind of property value are you going to have? But if you go to Winnetka or if you go to Zion and you go to one of their schools and teach, which I’ve gone that far out to teach, and you go into the schools, they got everything. They got beautiful studios. They got beautiful rooms, beautiful lunch rooms, beautiful buildings, and the teachers get paid fairly well, and they get a chance to do with the kids some -- learn things like that. But the difference between that and going to a school in the South Side of Chicago and Lawndale neighborhood, South Lawndale by Hyde Park, where the university is moving everybody out of there, [00:17:00] Chicago University, I was teaching a class of kindergarten kids. Their principal explained to me -- the principal was a friend of mine -- he explained to me, “These kids, their parents are crackheads and stuff like that. We got to try to teach them and stuff.” They’re very difficult to discipline. They don’t have any discipline at all. It was very hard to discipline them. And he would get their attention, but anybody else, like a stranger like me, I had to work twice as hard with them. They would grasp the concept, but they didn’t learn. They didn’t even know how to hold pencils. 11 �JJ: You mentioned Kelvyn Park or something like that. You mentioned that people were being displaced or something. Was it the South Side? GR: Yeah, the South Side, in Lawndale, South Lawndale. JJ: There’s been a lot of displacement in Chicago. GR: Oh, yeah. JJ: You grew up also in Lakeview, and [00:18:00] you (inaudible) Lincoln Park. GR: And even Humboldt Park is changing. JJ: And Humboldt Park is changing. Do you think that the fact that the community is changing all the time, do you think that had an impact or anything on some of these things? GR: Well, it’s -- what do they call it -- economic injustice going on, injustice. It’s economic injustice. Poor people are poor, and they don’t give any resources. JJ: Have you seen Winnetka? Winnetka, that’s the neighborhood that’s been stable all the time. The same people have been living there all the time. They haven’t been displaced. Do you think that contributes to the kids acting a little bit better than the ones in Humboldt Park or some other place who were displaced? I mean, it’s a political question I’m asking. GR: Well, yeah, because you’re talking about Winnetka. JJ: (inaudible) GR: Well, [00:19:00] isn’t it Bill (inaudible) comes from Winnetka, no? Or he comes from that neighborhood up there, right? JJ: (inaudible) GR: Yeah, right? (laughs) So, in other words -- 12 �JJ: Now, he was all right. GR: No, he’s a political person, and all they’re doing -- they blew up the building. JJ: But actually, what I’m saying is political. They got a kid grows up in the neighborhood. You moved all the time. Did that have an effect on you, you moved all the time? GR: Oh, yeah. You didn’t have a steady neighborhood. You didn’t have a steady group of neighbors. You didn’t know what it is, a neighborhood. You didn’t know what a neighborhood was, really. Once I moved into a Puerto Rican neighborhood, that was the first time that I had the chance of not moving around, but I chose to move around still. But then I went to Lakeview. Now, Lakeview, of course, renovated quicker than West Town. If I would’ve stayed in West Town, people in West Town, if you tell them about gentrification, they say, “Well, that’s over there.” [00:20:00] They don’t realize it’s right behind them. As a matter of fact, I told them, I’m here, watch out. (laughs) And they follow the artists. They follow the art trends. Like Wicker Park, they bring in the artists, and some commercial people come down, and then it brings the yuppies, and it brings everybody else, and then before you know it, they’ll come the million dollar homes that they have now in Bucktown, right? They only cost 10,000 dollars awhile back. You could buy a greystone building for 10,000 dollars, three stories, three apartments, you know, nice building. Now that same building is worth a million dollars, so yeah, it doesn’t help. It’s sort of like Helen. Helen is the only person I know that was able to bring in some yuppies but keep ’em at bay, 13 �keeping ’em like, say, where you can only have so many condominiums on the block. After that, you gotta give us something else. JJ: Helen Shiller? GR: Helen. [00:21:00] And because of that, they were always trying to get her out, and spent millions of dollars trying to get her out. She left on her own, but because she was tired. She was tired. But she was always telling me the stories that that’s how they did it over there. And she was doing a lot of the low-income housing stuff and Mayor Daley learned that from her. He actually adopted some of the programs. You know, the corporate Chicago, if they see good ideas, they take ’em eventually, they use them. So, low-income housing’s a reality now, and art is low-income. Mayor Daley, he’s very proud of that ACME building. And he helped make it happen. Mayor Daley has been there, pictures of David and his wife and all that with Mayor Daley. (laughter) But those [concepts?]come around for regular people, and then the city sees that it needs to be done. Everybody criticized Mayor Daley for having the city that doesn’t have low-income housing, and so he started saying, “Oh, let’s do something for the low-income housing now.” So, he is doing [00:22:00] his bit, or he was doing his bit. JJ: But do you think he was kind of pressured into that? GR: Yeah, because he had to put face. JJ: Because he came into office in ’55?, (inaudible). That’s where the neighborhood said, “You need to split.” GR: Yeah, they had the plan where they wanted to get rid of us. JJ: Right now, (inaudible) pressure to get them out. 14 �GR: Yeah, because otherwise he’d be just like his father. JJ: The city’s still displacing people. GR: Yeah, but he said that he’d be like -- well, he has been -- JJ: Oh, you’re talking about the younger Daley. GR: Yeah. JJ: But his father was the same plan. GR: It’s the same thing, yeah. It’s all, he inherited everything. Of course, he inherited everything. I mean, you know. It’s proven that he was the state’s attorney when they killed Fred Hampton, right? And it’s proven that he got blood on his hat, but they don’t say anything about it. So, it’s like, okay, so the city pays out millions of dollars to a family, and that’s it. And newspapers say that the city admits that [00:23:00] they did wrong, and they admit that Mayor Daley knew about it. Everybody knew about it, the Red Squad. I mean, they admit to it. JJ: What was the Red Squad? What do you mean, the Red Squad? GR: Well, it was that the FBI throughout the city developed this squad to go and kill Fred Hampton. It’s the Red Squad. I mean, you knew all about it before I knew about it. I learned about it through history because I wasn’t living there at the time, but you knew about it when it happened. You know what I mean? So, the time and all that, people understand that, and community leaders understand that. The Puerto Rican community understands. The Mexican community understands it. But you still have the whole thing that they have this buffer, and it’s called the middle class. (laughs) It keeps everybody voting and saying, “Oh, he’s doing a good job.” Right? 15 �JJ: That’s what they (inaudible). (laughs) GR: Well, the middle class is corroding [00:24:00] right now, and that’s what the whole application issue is. As the middle class corrodes, then that’s how France had the revolution, because they got rid of the middle class. People got really upset. There was like nothing but poor people, and so they had the revolution. That’s one of the reasons why France started, after the revolution, to have free education, because if you educate the masses, then you could have a middle class. But if you don’t educate them, you’re not going to have a middle class. The middle class is that buffer that keeps politicians in place, in this country anyway. The middle class, they’re falling like cockroaches. They’re falling, but they don’t see it. They don’t realize who they are. You know what I mean? It’s not gone, or I mean, the whole thing when Slim Coleman was working in Uptown for your election, for your campaign, during the campaign, and it was that the white Appalachian [00:25:00] poor people didn’t think that the system was all that bad because they were white, and then the Black have it bad because the Blacks are Black, you know? But they didn’t realize that they were also just as bad off as the Black people, or worse, some of them. And this happens to -- I went to the south, to South Carolina, and you could see how the yuppies go there and buy a hillbilly’s house, renovate the inside but leave the outside look like a hillbilly house, so it has the authentic look, rustic look. So, you can tell the difference there. Their roads have Pampers all over the place, and their kids are running around naked. You could see the other one had sparkling glass, and it’s beautiful with its old roof and all this stuff. But that’s what the yuppies have taken over, 16 �buying all these areas up, so the Appalachians are forced out also in North Carolina, when I went there to visit. JJ: So, there’s a big displacement there. GR: Yeah. There’s displacement going on everywhere, [00:26:00] everywhere. The whole thing that’s going on in Florida with the ban and the foreclosures and all that, that’s incredible. That’s incredible that that could happen at such a massive scale. Well, one of the reasons nothing happens, nothing can be done about it, nothing has been done about it because they killed all the left movement. They killed everybody on the left, not the right. They didn’t kill the right movement. The right movement is healthy, too healthy. (laughs) JJ: So, they killed a lot of leaders? GR: They killed all our leaders. If Martin Luther King was around, would they be able to get away with this? No, there would be some organizing. There would be some high-level organizations, not only (inaudible), but Fred Hampton (inaudible). He would’ve been the mayor of Chicago. If all these people that they killed during the ’60s, ’70s, if those people were still alive, if Robert Kennedy was alive, things would be totally different. [00:27:00] They wouldn’t let these things happen. That’s the only reason Nixon was able to become president, because they killed all the left talent, and there was nobody to run, and Richard Nixon looked like a genius, (laughs) and we all know better than that, right? It was because they killed everybody on the left. A lot of people don’t understand that, all right? I see that very clearly because I say, well, what happened? Where’s all my support? Where’s my backup? It's not there. What happened to 17 �it? They all got killed. Who killed ’em? The right-wing people killed them. It wasn’t us. It was right-wing people. Guess who gave Nixon a hard time for the presidency, kicked his ass, made him look like shit? Kennedy, because who killed -- next thing you know, Kennedy gets killed, and Nixon looking good. Before that, he was looking like an idiot because they didn’t have something to compare him to. I don’t know, [00:28:00] I think that’s what happened. I know that’s what happened. I don’t think; I know that’s what happened. That’s why it was such a loss these days, because they wiped out the left movement. We’re waiting for the next generation of left, and they’re out there in the streets. You don’t see them, but if you keep your eyes open and your ears to the pavement, you’re gonna see that Chicago beat up a bunch of young people during the times that they had whatever, the Democratic Convention, the Republican Convention. It always brings all these young people out, all these young organizers. Occupation’s a good example of what’s going on, Occupation. It’s a good reaction to the Tea Party. It's a good reaction. JJ: Occupation of Wall Street? GR: Yeah. JJ: I would say it’s kind of an evolution from our time. GR: Right. And now it’s internet, different from our time. They have the internet now, which means they can organize [00:29:00] pretty fast. And then every town is organizing across the country. You know, what they do is they keep on hiring more police. I was talking to the people on the Greater West Town Committee, and this is Pulaski and North Avenue. They have a historical society there, and 18 �they have these articles about the problems in the neighborhood, so I started to - you know, Jeff-something is saying, “Yeah, the problem is because of this and this and this.” “Oh, yeah, going around pointing fingers. Blame the rich people.” I said, “No, sorry if you’re rich, man, but the point is that if we don’t have no economics for the people, then we’re going to have these problems.” Poor people didn’t come from nowhere. They were invented. They were produced, and our society’s doing that. And if there’s only a few rich people [00:30:00] and there’s a bunch of poor people, then you know what the problem is. They got rid of what I said. They erased the articles out of the page, and they don’t even want to talk about it, or they want to talk about gentrified Pulaski and North Avenue; bring them back. They want it back to where it was, and they’re going to get it back because that’s what’s going on. Look at Wicker Park. Look at Lincoln Park, same thing. They just don’t realize that, what they’re doing. The yuppies moving into Humboldt Park, I mean, I agree with you that they need a place to live, (inaudible). (laughter) I feel bad for the yuppies because everybody blames everything on them. They didn’t tell the yuppies when they moved into the neighborhood, that apartment that they’d rented just now for 1,000 or 2,000 dollars only cost 100 dollars before they came. They didn’t tell them that. What did they do? The developers, [00:31:00] and they put City Hall and the politicians. The politicians, these are our own politicians that are doing that. They’re selling us out short, and that’s how the yuppies move in. And then what are they doing in West Town? Okay, Humboldt Park (inaudible). Humboldt Park is a good deal. I’m sorry, it’s so -- you know? And these little kids, turning them 19 �into hate people. People, they hate yuppies. I hear that. I hear that from these young people that they hate yuppies, but they don’t realize that the politician that they’re getting into office is the one that okayed that deal made that the banks and the developers made so now for the yuppies to come in and pay 2,000 dollars a month. If they put the same energy into helping the poor people out, then they could do something positive, but they don’t. The politicians and the banks, bankers and developers, are in it together, and it’s legal, and they [00:32:00] make the yuppies look bad. And they blame it all on the yuppies. You know what I’m saying, right? JJ: Yeah. GR: On Division Street, yuppies keep out. What’s that all about? They don’t know who the real enemy is. We are our own enemies. Right now, we’re overrepresentative. We have more Puerto Rican congressmen than any small group of people ever had, and we can’t get shit done, and we’re still struggling. Just look at it. We’re only four million people. What community enjoys so many politicians, of four million? No community has that many politicians of four million people. They don’t have that many politicians. We got Puerto Ricans in the Bronx. We got Puerto Ricans in Manhattan. We got Puerto Ricans from everywhere. We got Puerto Ricans in Philadelphia. We have Puerto Ricans in Ohio, in Chicago, all these congressmen. We got more congressmen than we need, and [00:33:00] yet we can’t get any -- still, we got the worst schools, living in the worst ghettos. They’re making deals with developers, the banks, offices. There’s politics, right? The art of compromising. 20 �JJ: Any final words? GR: Any final words? (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) GR: Well, it’s not over. (laughs) It’s just beginning. I mean, let’s look at it this way. We’re going to be a footnote in history, how (inaudible) evolved. But I think what we’re seeing and what we’re doing right now are very important because, for instance, I talked to this young lady that was feeding the crowds in New York, young Puerto Rican girl. She was telling me about what she’s involved, what she’s doing. She had cancer. She had a brain aneurysm, but she’s out there [00:34:00] doing it, and with her husband. They’re both political, young Puerto Ricans. And I said, “Man, I wish I was out there with you guys. I feel so guilty I cannot be part of this.” And she said, “You was doing this when I was a little kid. I mean, you were telling me I gotta do something. Your work has been political. Your stuff has been political since the very beginning, since I met you, since I’ve known you, and you’ve influenced a lot of people.” And what we’re telling them is, “Look at him. Look at you, what you’re thinking, what you’re saying, because that’s the real answer.” It’s our idea comes solutions. You can’t have a solution if you don’t look at the problem, and we have examined the problem, like under a microscope, all our lives. We’ve been very critical of the society, of the system, of the political people, very political. We’ve been very political. In that sense, we’re just at the [00:35:00] beginning of it, really. We are the beginning. The ’60s was the beginning. Where they’re going to in the future is all related. It’s all related. And things will get better. I mean, I quit voting because I heard, was it 21 �[Kleberg?] say, “Well, people think they’re radical because they go out and vote for a liberal every four years.” That’s not radical. That’s not organizing. You gotta live a life. You gotta organize. You gotta live a life. You gotta do it. And now I choose to be with my artist friends, my artist family, and we all help each other, and we all get ahead somehow and keep on moving forward. And our expressions and what we say about society, it’s very important for the future. This is why this is important, this video, your project that you’re doing. How is that? Sound great? (laughs) END OF VIDEO FILE 22 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4d757e0fae9dbbf76fb208b218f6900.mp4 060d9db24b90e05a32e6c2576d9da284 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Gamaliel Ramirez vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Gamaliel Ramirez nació en 1949 en South Bronx, Nueva York a padres que acababan de inmigrarse. Su familia so mudo a Chicago en 1955. Atendió la escuela de Peabody, en Augusta que era este de Ashland y oeste del I-94. En este tiempo el I-94 separaba la comunidad en dos partes, el Old Town, Lakeview y Lincoln Park en el este, y Wicker Park y Humboldt Park en el oeste. Señor Ramirez nunca fue un miembro de los Latin Kings o de los Young Lords si era amigos con unos de los miembros. Luchando con dislexia, Señor Ramirez fue forzado ah abandonar la escuela cuando tiene 16 años. Era en este momento que decidió aprender a pintar, visito el Art Institute of Chicago para aprender sobre las pinturas Europeos y luego fue con maestros para aprender sobre las pinturas Americana y Americana Latina. Señor Ramirez fue uno de los primeros de ser parte del Movimiento de Arte Latino en Chicago, y expone su arte nacional igual que internacionalmente. El hermano Señor Ramirez, Eddie Ramirez, era el coordinador asistente que estaba en cargo distritos durante la Campaña de Alderman para Jiménez. Gamaliel Ramirez ofreció trabajar con los Latin Eagles y Young Lords para limpiar la aria de drogas que en este tiempo había cambio de drogas en simple vista en las calles de Wilton y Grace Street. Los Young Lords hicieron un acuerdo con los Latin Eagles para limpiar el graffiti en el vecindario. Señor Ramirez también fue un líder en pintar los murales en la oficina de los Young Lords, por dentro y por fuera. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Latin Kings--Illinois--Chicago Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Artes, puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Ramirez_Gamaliel Title A name given to the resource Gamaliel Ramirez interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ramirez, Gamaliel Description An account of the resource Gamaliel Ramirez was born in 1949 in South Bronx, New York to recently arrived immigrant parents. Their family moved to Chicago in 1955. Although Mr. Ramirez was never a member, he hung around with the Latin Kings and with the Young Lords. Mr. Ramirez became one of the pioneers of the Chicago-based Latino Art Movement and has exhibited his paintings nationally and internationally. Mr. Ramirez also led the painting of murals at the Young Lords office, both outside and inside. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Latin Kings--Illinois--Chicago Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8cf7a4d4ec597b6822fa8ff3390c37d6.pdf 4b3640afb689f4d893f7888867d8301d PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Sandra Quiles Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/21/2012 Runtime: 01:48:38 Biography and Description Oral history of Sandra Quiles, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on November 21, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: So, [Sandy?], if you could give me your full name, with your middle initial and everything -SANDRA QUILES: My full name? JJ: -- and your date of birth and where you were born. SQ: Okay. My full name is Sandra Maria Quiles Jimenez. I was born in Aurora, Illinois. JJ: When were you born? SQ: I was born in Aurora, Illinois. JJ: No, what date? SQ: September 17th. I try to forget it. (laughs) JJ: September 17th? SQ: Yeah, September 17th, ’71. JJ: And why are you trying to forget it? SQ: The years go by too fast. (laughs) JJ: Okay. It was ’81? SQ: Seventy-one. JJ: Seventy-one. Sorry. I won’t go into how long (inaudible). SQ: Oh, please. (laughter) JJ: Because you said -- okay. So, did you go to school in Aurora? SQ: Yeah, I did. I went to Brady School in Aurora. [00:01:00] JJ: Brady? 1 �SQ: Yes, I went to Brady. JJ: What part of Aurora? East side, west side? SQ: I don’t remember. It’s so long ago. I really don’t remember. I know it was -- I really liked it. It was really, really good when I was small, growing up. It was calm. I know certain times of the year, certain -- there was a lot of Mexicans coming in. So, right there, a little bit of changes. But otherwise that, it was good. It was nice and calm. But then, while the years kept on going, it wasn’t as the way it should have been from there, I guess. Mom and my dad didn’t really like it anymore, so we ended up coming here. JJ: So, who’s your mom? What’s her name? And your dad? SQ: My mom is Juana Jimenez, and my dad is William Quiles. JJ: William Quiles, okay. And how about your brothers and sisters? What were their names? SQ: My brother -- my oldest brother -- [00:02:00] his name is Joseph Anthony. I would be the second one. And then, comes my sister Margie, and then would be Danny. JJ: And where do they live? SQ: Well, right now, Joey lives in -- I think in Orlando. Margie lives in Aurora. And Danny, I don’t -- I don’t remember. Really, I don’t. JJ: Alright. And then, are they married or no? SQ: Well, no, no, not really. My sister, she’s happily with her partner right now. They have a child. She’s happily with him. My brother, he’s okay. He’s with his partner also. But my oldest brother, no, not that I know of, no. 2 �JJ: But your husband, what’s his name? [00:03:00] SQ: My husband’s name is Victor Ocasio. JJ: Victor Ocasio. What does he do? SQ: My husband is a doctor. JJ: He’s a doctor? Okay? So, what do you do for a living? SQ: I am a artesana. JJ: Artesana? SQ: Artesana, yes. JJ: And what is artesana? SQ: Artesana would be someone that does certain things either with seeds or whatever you could do with your hands. I guess they would call it as a crafter. JJ: Crafter? SQ: I think that’s what it would be called, crafter. JJ: So, you do different things with your hands? SQ: Yes, I like to use a lot of seeds, Puerto Rican seeds, all -- certain seeds that you can’t find in the states is what I like to use. And then, I use a lot of -- JJ: Because you’re living in Puerto Rico. SQ: Right. So, I use the seeds from here. JJ: Where are you living at right now? SQ: In Camuy. JJ: In Camuy, Puerto Rico. Okay. So, that’s where we’re doing the interview. SQ: So, the seeds -- I like to mess with the seeds. I love a lot of seed work. The problem is that it’s so hard to do because it takes a long time. I can make -- 3 �[00:04:00] one bracelet would easily take me about two weeks by the time I look for them, pick out the good ones, make sure I -- I don’t know -- I wouldn’t know how to put it in English. I would just make sure you don’t have little bugs and stuff inside your seeds. JJ: Now, is that one of those necklaces? SQ: Yes, these are one -- JJ: Did you make that? SQ: Yes, I did. JJ: Okay. And you made a lot of stuff in your house also because -- SQ: Practically everything. JJ: -- I see other things (inaudible). SQ: Yeah, I like anything that has to do with woodwork, I like. JJ: Woodwork? SQ: Anything that’s recycled. Yes, especially woodwork. JJ: So, what kind of stuff do you do with woodwork? I mean, we’ll go later on and -- SQ: What stuff do I do? JJ: Right. SQ: I love doors. I don’t know why. I have an obsession with doors. (laughs) I like doors. They have so much history in them. You know how many people touched a door? So, you never know who’s touched it, who’s opened it. So, I don’t know. I just like it. They have different size, different shapes. M: (inaudible) JJ: Come on in. Okay, so, they have different sizes and different shapes? 4 �SQ: Right. JJ: But where did you get the idea of the woodwork? SQ: My dad because Dad, he does a lot of things with his hands. And I’ve seen some of his work that he does at the house. And it’s just by, I mean, looking at him and saying, “Wow, I want to learn how to do that.” So, I would just stand there and just watch him. So, I would learn. And he’s a good teacher. To show -- he’s a good teacher. He’s nice and calm, and he’ll tell you, “Well, you can’t do it like this. Do it this way. This is the best way to do it.” So, I guess I just caught on to what he does. Yeah. [00:06:00] JJ: So, your dad does a lot of -- is he an artesano, or what does he do? SQ: Well, I wouldn’t call it artesano. I don’t know if it would be called artesano. I know that we just like to -- what we see, we might like, and we’ll just pick it up and do it. JJ: But I mean, does he do artisan crafts like you do? SQ: Well, he does cabinets sometimes and he -- JJ: Oh, he does cabinets? SQ: Yes, sometimes. And he’ll do certain things in the house. You know, “I need this. Can you do that for me?” And he can just -- JJ: Like you say I need this (inaudible). SQ: Well, it would be, “Can you fix the bathroom for me?” He’ll go do it. JJ: Okay. So, he does carpentry work. SQ: He does a little of everything. JJ: Little of everything? 5 �SQ: Yeah. JJ: But he does woodwork too? SQ: Yes, yes, he does. He doesn’t do it as design, shape of it. But he does just modern touch, nice square and -- JJ: Because in [00:07:00] Puerto Rico, they make -- sometimes people make their own houses. Did he do stuff like that? Does -- is that one? SQ: Yes, yes. That’s -- yeah, I would say that. JJ: But that’s construction. SQ: You’re right. Yeah, yeah, that’s what you would call it. JJ: That’s what he does. SQ: Construction work, right. JJ: He does construction work. But you do artesana. SQ: Mine is completely different. Mine is more taking something that you would see old and try to make it -- give it a brand new life, use it for something else. That’s what I would -- I would probably put it that way. JJ: So, you kind of got that from him as you were growing up or -- SQ: Yeah, because I would always see him in the garage, doing things. Kind of fascinated at stuff that he would do. I would just stare and look and watch. I really liked it. But then, as the years kept on going by, I would start picking up -- I think the first time I did something -- I think I sewed [00:08:00] a skirt. And I liked it. But then, I didn’t like to make clothes. But I liked to make sheets, curtains, and pillows, and things that everybody else could see, not, “Okay, I’m going to wear a skirt.” No, no, no, that’s not me. 6 �JJ: So, you always made stuff. Now, where did you get that part of you, the sewing part? SQ: I don’t know. I guess -- JJ: Was it your mother? SQ: -- it would be from -- no, not from Mom. I think it would be more like one of his sisters, [Milda?]. Yeah, she’s a sew-er. She’s another arts and crafts person. She does a lot of stuff with her hands. She does beautiful work also. JJ: So, you were close to Milda? SQ: I wasn’t close to her (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but I think -- yeah, I just think I just caught up things that she would do too. If I didn’t understand something when I was going to school, I would go to her and I would ask, “How do you do this?” And she would explain to me, and I would just catch up and I would do it. JJ: When you say going to school -- so, did you go to school here or did you go to school -- SQ: Yeah, I also -- when we were in Aurora [00:09:00] -- we left from there when I was -- JJ: How old -- yeah, how old? SQ: -- Fifteen. I think it was a month before I turned 15. And then, I ended up here in school, which I did not like. I wasn’t too happy with the schools here at all. JJ: Why not? SQ: Well, the school’s completely different. We’re used to the state school. They have it closed. You have your hallways. You have your private bathrooms. You 7 �have everything. Here, everything is out in the open. You’ve got to go -- if it’s raining, you have to run because you’re going to get wet. There’s no hallways actually that you can say, “I’m going to get covered up. I’m not going to get wet.” Everything is completely different. JJ: I don’t understand. But you’re inside school -- SQ: You’re in the school. But the school is -- it has, you know, rooms. But if you’re ready to leave to the next room, you’ve got to go out. You’ve got to go out into the courtyard. [00:10:00] You’ve got to walk across. You’re still going to get rained on because it’s not covered. It’s not covered at all. It’s not like over there. Over there is -- you have your air conditioning. And if it’s cold, you’re nice and warm. No, not here. Make sure you bring your umbrella and your jacket. That’s how it works here. JJ: And you went to what school here? SQ: I went to the high school. I went to the high school. JJ: You went to the high school? SQ: Yes. JJ: What was it -- do you know what it was called? SQ: Yeah, Santiago R. Palmer. JJ: Okay, Santiago -- SQ: R. Palmer. JJ: R. Palmer? Okay. And so, besides the room, how were the kids and how was -- SQ: The teaching and -- JJ: Because you went all the way to 15. You were 15 years old. 8 �SQ: Right. JJ: So, you practically -- you were born in Aurora. SQ: Everything is different. First of all, it was hard for me because I didn’t know [00:11:00] a lot of Spanish. In my home, we talked Spanish. But remember, we talked Spanglish, half Spanish, half English. That’s what we usually do. We still do it. But I mean, Dad would talk to us the basic. But Mom would talk to us in English. We would go to school, everything was in English. Our friends -everybody knew English. So then, you come here to Puerto Rico, everything has changed completely. Everybody speaks Spanish. And yes, there are few people that speak English, few, as in maybe 10, could be 20, when I was in school. JJ: And then, did they speak broken English? SQ: Broken English. JJ: All of them? SQ: Not all of them. There were maybe a handful that knew good English, maybe a handful. The teachers -- which they said English teachers -- they wouldn’t be called English teachers, at least when I in school. Now -- JJ: What do you mean? Because they didn’t really understand English. SQ: They [00:12:00] didn’t understand English at all. And the English as maybe a 10th grader was learning seventh grade English at that time. JJ: Oh, so the class -- SQ: Everything. JJ: You were learning English in class. SQ: Right. But everything -- 9 �JJ: Did you learn Spanish in class? SQ: All the rest of the classes were in Spanish except one, which was English. JJ: So, you were all in Spanish. SQ: Right. JJ: But they were not -- were they teaching Spanish, or were they just -- SQ: No, they were teaching Spanish, and they were all in Spanish, except the English class. JJ: For example, the English class taught (inaudible) but the English class (inaudible). (break in audio) JJ: Okay, so, English was a subject. And so, was Spanish a subject? SQ: Yes, it was. JJ: And then, all the other classes were in Spanish. SQ: Everything else was in Spanish. JJ: But you just had one for [00:13:00] English. SQ: One for English. It was so poor English that you would get bored in the class, at least we did, or everybody that knew English got bored because it was like -instead of a 10th grade English, you would get a seventh grade English. JJ: So, for you, it was boring because you already knew it. SQ: Right, right. JJ: So, you go an A, right? SQ: Well, I mean, probably not because we would just end up fooling around in class. And then, the rest of the classes -- it was so difficult, at least for me it was and for 10 �people that didn’t really know Spanish because there’s no bilingual. That didn’t exist, bilingual classes and everything. No. It’s, “Either you listen -- if you don’t listen, well I can’t help you.” That’s the way it was. I think I was told [00:14:00] a couple of times, “If you don’t know English, then go back to the United States.” JJ: By whom? SQ: A few teachers. JJ: They came right out and told you that? SQ: Yeah, they said that a few times. JJ: So, that kind of was -- SQ: That kind of -- JJ: How did you feel (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? SQ: That made me feel not too great, you know. JJ: Were they saying it in a loving way? SQ: No, they were saying it in a sarcastic way. “If you don’t know English, then go back to where you came from.” It’s like, “We live in Puerto Rico. We speak Spanish. Learn Spanish.” Well, that’s what I came for, to learn. I mean, you don’t go to Japan and know their language, I mean, unless you are born and raised from there. You understand? So, it hit hard. It hit hard. I do remember that day when that did happen. It happened to me and my older brother. It happened to Joey too. And we went straight to Mom, and we had told her about it. And her only words were, “Just leave them because they’re ignorant.” [00:15:00] And thinking of it now, yes, it was true. They were very ignorant 11 �because, now, if you don’t know English, what’s it going to get you? Nothing, nothing at all. That’s why I showed my children -JJ: So now, you kind of feel like revenge. Is it revenge? SQ: No, not -- JJ: Now everybody needs to know English. SQ: -- not a revenge. It’s not a revenge. It’s just, you know, think before you speak. (laughter) That kind of way. I don’t want to say revenge because it doesn’t sound too good. JJ: But I mean, they were kind of wrong too. SQ: Yeah, they were wrong. JJ: They’re supposed to be responsible people -- SQ: Right. JJ: -- teachers. But you said you went to Mom, so it hurt a little. SQ: Yeah, it hurt us. But my mom knew how to explain it to us to make us feel better. She just told us, “They’re just ignorant. They don’t know what they say.” So, we just [00:16:00] left it that way. There was no -- for her -- she knew how to fix it for us so we wouldn’t feel bad. JJ: But I mean, it’s devastating because you’re coming from here -- this is, in a way, your country. SQ: Right. JJ: And then, also somebody from your country telling you that. SQ: Like I said -- well, they’re just people that say things without thinking. That’s it. You have to think before you speak. They didn’t do that. 12 �JJ: So, the next day you went to school after that. SQ: I left it like if nothing, and my brother left it like if nothing. We just left it and kept on taking normal classes. We just dropped it. JJ: But how did she act? How did the teacher act? SQ: Like if nothing, like if nothing ever happened. I guess it was just a stupid remark that the teacher said, something she wasn’t supposed to say. JJ: But she didn’t give you (inaudible)? SQ: No, because we didn’t -- JJ: She was an authority figure. SQ: Right because we didn’t even think of it. We didn’t care anymore about it. The subject was dropped. [00:17:00] We talked to our parents about it. And we dropped it. JJ: Did they do that to other kids? SQ: I don’t know. I really don’t know. Probably, but I don’t know. JJ: So, how was school in the United States, in Aurora? SQ: The school over there? Actually it was -- I liked it. I liked it because the teachers -- they were always, you know, “Do you need help? Do you need anything?” They were always making sure that if you did need help -- they let us understand that, “We’re there to help you.” But here, it’s not the same. It’s not. And now -that’s at least when I went to school. But now, for my two children, the teachers - since, you know, during the years everything does change -- the teachers now, I mean, they’re really good teachers, [00:18:00] at least the teachers that my 13 �children have gotten. My oldest son, which is 19 -- that’s Andrew -- he graduated. And I’ve never had any problems with him at all. JJ: So, he went all the way through school here? SQ: Yes. JJ: So, he was born here. SQ: Yes, he was born here. And he knew English because I showed him English. I made sure, even if you’ve never gone to the United States, you need to know English because what if you do go to the United States to make a good life for yourself? How are you going to be able to do it if you don’t know English? And he knows good English. JJ: You were born and raised in the United States. SQ: I was born and raised in the United States. JJ: But now you’re -- SQ: And my son was born and raised in Puerto Rico. The difference is -- it’s the way the parents teach your children. That’s how I figure it. And right now, my daughter -- she’s nine -- which that would be Victoria -- she knows good English, very good English. [00:19:00] So, I mean, she knows and she listens. It’s just like I say, as long as you teach them good, it’ll work out. I know it’ll work out for them during the long run in school. JJ: So, do you have plans to go back to the United States? SQ: My husband says it now, you know, “Why don’t we go back, and why don’t we do this?” I would really love to, but at the same time, I wouldn’t. The reason is because -- you know, all the gangs and everything you see on the news. I know 14 �it’s in every place. I know everywhere in the world, there’s always something. But right now, here -- I think it’s the best place for my children because right here I live, at least this part that -- where I do live, it’s [00:20:00] quiet, no gangs. I can leave my door wide open, which it’s happened. I’ve gone to sleep and I wake up in the morning, my door is wide open. I don’t have to worry about any of that, and neither do my children. So, if I were to do that in the United States, what do you think would happen? I’d probably get robbed. But for me, right now, this is a great place to show my kids, let them go to school. They don’t have to worry about much. I know the time they get home. I know they’re going to get home safely, hopefully, because you can’t always say, “It’s going to work out good for them. You don’t know that.” But so far, so good. JJ: Does your husband know English? Did he live in the United States or -- SQ: No, my husband’s never gone to the United States at all. So, he’s born and raised in Isabela. JJ: Isabela? Where is that at on the island? Do you know? [00:21:00] SQ: Oh gosh. You’re asking the wrong person. (laughter) That’s close by Aguadilla. JJ: Okay, that’s on like the west coast, by Mayagüez, Aguadilla? SQ: Yeah. JJ: Oh, on the west coast. SQ: Yes. JJ: So, he was born and raised there? SQ: Born and raised, yes. JJ: In the country, in the city, or what? 15 �SQ: I would put it the country. JJ: And then, he just decided to become a medical doctor? SQ: Yeah, I guess. He said that ever since he was small, that’s what he wanted to do. So, he wanted to become a doctor. It’s not easy here being a doctor though, not at all. The pay isn’t the same as the United States. JJ: What do you mean? SQ: Well, it’s just an example. I don’t really know. But I know [00:22:00] it’s not the same. Imagine -- you can just imagine they -- whatever a doctor from the states would get. Maybe we would get half. So, it’s not a lot. JJ: Where does he practice now? What town? SQ: He is in Bayamón. He was working in San Juan. But now, he’s in Bayamón. JJ: Do you know how to spell that? SQ: Yeah. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) SQ: I don’t know if it’s (inaudible) or not. JJ: Yeah, I understand. SQ: You’re making too much -- (break in audio) JJ: We were talking about your husband being a doctor and the differences. SQ: Well, I mean, it’s not -- I don’t know. The benefits over there, I guess, would be better than the ones here. But it’s not the same. It’s really not the same at all. JJ: And you’re saying in terms of income. SQ: Right, right. 16 �JJ: So, about half -- SQ: Yeah. JJ: -- half of there. [00:23:00] SQ: Yes. JJ: Okay, but you still -- a good status. I mean, he’s a doctor. SQ: Yeah, that’s -- yeah. JJ: So, you enjoy it? Do you enjoy that status or -- SQ: It’s okay. We enjoy our simple life. We’re not too fancy, fancy people. We like everything normal. Like why can’t we live a normal life just like normal people? Other people like -- oh, high standards or, “Oh, I’m so-and-so person.” We don’t do that. We’re just two normal people like anybody else. JJ: And recently, you just bought a house. Right? SQ: Yes. We bought this house four years ago. JJ: And was it already built, everything, or did your father help with it? SQ: Yeah, because there were a lot of things wrong with the house because I guess - we bought an as-is house. [00:24:00] JJ: A fixer. SQ: Yeah, a fixer. So, that’s what we’ve been doing. We took the garage, we made it into a -- well, we’re still doing it -- into half a living room, a family -- and then, a kitchen -- part of the kitchen. JJ: It’s a beautiful house (inaudible). SQ: Thank you, thank you. JJ: So, you said you don’t remember anything about Brady School? 17 �SQ: I don’t. Actually, I don’t remember a lot. I don’t. I really, really don’t. I don’t know if it’s that I just blurred it out or -- I don’t remember much. JJ: Do you remember your first birthday party? SQ: I do remember, when I was smaller, some things, not a lot of things. I do remember where we used to live. We used to live close by the railroad tracks. And it was on Front Street. [00:25:00] And we used to roller skate. Me and my sister, we used to roller skate down the street. So, I do remember bits and bits here and there. That, I do remember. I do remember a couple of things I did with my brother when we were growing up, but I’m not going there. (laughter) I’m not going there. But just little tiny bits of things. And then, from there, I do remember -- I think it was my 13th birthday and my 14th birthday. And that’s it. I don’t really -- JJ: So, what was your 13th birthday? I’m just trying to get an idea of what -- SQ: My 13th birthday -- it was something small (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). It was something small. It was just us at home and my best friend. That’s really it. And then, my 14th -- I do remember my 14th birthday. It was a little big. Mom gave me a little -- big birthday party, which that I do remember. And we didn’t have to worry really much about anything. JJ: Who were your close friends? SQ: I only had one really good friend. Her name was Bridget. I don’t know [00:26:00] her last name. But I do remember. And I do know my sister was able to find her not too long ago. I haven’t spoken to her, I haven’t seen her in a long time. JJ: Was she a nationality or just a regular American. 18 �SQ: She’s an American, yes. JJ: So, just -- I don’t know what nationality. SQ: No, I don’t. JJ: Just American. SQ: Yeah. JJ: Would you call it American? She’s an American? SQ: I would call her a white girl. (laughter) She had a really, really white -- and her blonde hair. But she was really smart. Well, she is really, really smart. I would call her -- “I’m going to white girl’s house.” (laughter) I don’t know. JJ: And so, you did enjoy some things in Aurora? SQ: I did. I have good memories, most of them like Christmas, but with my family. I don’t remember friends. [00:27:00] I don’t -- I think maybe there was a girl that used to live next door. Her name was Jenny. That I do -- and her brother was Julio. That I do know because her brother was my brother’s best friend, which would be Joey’s best friend, at that time. And then, Jenny would go to my house to play with my sister, which was Margie. So, that I do remember. But otherwise that, I don’t really remember -- JJ: You said Christmas. What was Christmas? SQ: Christmas -- oh, I loved Christmas because Mom would do all these things, and we would just play or sit around the Christmas tree and things that little kids did. I do remember. I do remember all those good times. Here, it’s not the same because -- I remember once Mom said, “Oh, we’ve got to go outside and look at the Christmas tree.” So, we ran outside to see the Christmas tree, and I was like, 19 �“Wow, it’s a big tree.” And when we walked up the stairs, it was a little tiny, tiny tree on top [00:28:00] of a table. (laughter) JJ: But to you, it was big. SQ: It looks really big. JJ: (inaudible) SQ: No, that was out in Aurora. Yeah. The only thing that I really, really miss is the snow. That, I do miss. JJ: Did you do activities in the snow? SQ: I remember when Dad and Mom would take us to Phillips Park to go on the sled. That, I do. I do remember that. And that -- I really miss that. I would love to take my kids someday so they can know how it feels to go down that sled on the little hills. JJ: What about -- you go bowling with you dad? I know your dad was into bowling (inaudible). SQ: Yeah, I was in bowling leagues. I was in that. I was in one because of Dad. Dad did a lot of bowling, a lot. [00:29:00] I think every Saturday, if I’m not mistaken. Every Saturday he’d say, “I’m going bowling.” And we would all tag along with Dad. I do remember that. JJ: Now, there were family people there too, right (inaudible)? SQ: Yes, a lot of family. But you know what? There was a lot of Puerto Ricans there, a lot of Puerto Ricans. So, most of the groups that were in the bowling leagues -they were mostly all Puerto Ricans. There was very little Mexicans. And there was a lot of Americans. But mostly they were Puerto Ricans. 20 �JJ: So, you remember that (inaudible). SQ: Yeah, I do remember that. That, I do remember. JJ: So, did you remember like when they had a parade or something (inaudible)? SQ: That’s the problem. I don’t remember. JJ: No, it’s not a problem. I’m just trying to find -- SQ: I don’t -- JJ: -- what you remember. SQ: Yeah, but I do -- I wish I do remember most of that stuff. But I don’t. JJ: I’m trying to find out where your thinking process, your development came in. SQ: My thinking process -- oh. (laughter) JJ: (inaudible) I mean, you go into artwork and stuff. Did you do that over there? [00:30:00] SQ: What? JJ: Your artesana, the -- SQ: Oh, in Aurora, you mean? No, I don’t think I did. No, no. I know Mom would always say that I always had bags of things and I would sit there and make stuff, and I would make Barbie clothes. I think all girls made Barbie clothes or doll clothes out of anything they could think of and find because my daughter does that now too. So, I guess, from there, it just kept on going, I do think. JJ: So, the decision comes that, “We’re moving out of here, and we’re going to Puerto Rico.” How did you feel? SQ: I wasn’t happy at all. Remember, I was going to be 15 in a month. I was going to turn 15. And every girl, at least now they do, most of the girls did either their 21 �Sweet 16 or their quinceañera, which would be their 15. I was waiting for a little party. No, I didn’t get that. [00:31:00] I got, “We’re going to Puerto Rico.” I was like, “Great.” That was my decision. I was like, “Why are we leaving?” I wouldn’t -- okay, fine, a vacation, that would be great. But I guess, at that time, I didn’t see it that way. At that time, I was really upset, like any other kid. First of all, we’re leaving our friends. Second of all, we were leaving what we knew behind. But I know my parents did it for us so we could have a better life because it was starting to get bad. So, I know Mom kept saying to us, “I’m only doing this because it’s better for us. It’s going to be better for the family. The things -- I don’t have to worry about so-and-so guy is shooting outside. Get in the house.” I guess that’s why they mostly did it, to come here. I guess it was a good decision too because we all went to school. And Mom didn’t really have to worry. And we could walk to school and come back home walking, no problem. [00:32:00] JJ: But it wasn’t bothering you, the shooting and all of that your mom was talking about. Was it bothering you? SQ: If it was bothering me? JJ: Yeah, were you worried about that? SQ: Remember, I was 14. I didn’t care about any of that. That wasn’t -- all we cared about -- our friends and what clothes and what I was going to wear the following day. I didn’t care about none of that. Now -- by thinking of it, now I would have cared because, remember, once you start getting older, then that’s when you realize, okay -- 22 �JJ: But at that time, you didn’t -- SQ: I didn’t -- JJ: -- or you were more mad that you were coming to Puerto Rico. SQ: Right. I was upset because we were coming. And I had to leave my best friend, and I had to leave my stuff, that kind of stuff. [00:33:00] JJ: But didn’t you think, “I’m coming to my home”? SQ: No, I didn’t think of that at all. I didn’t think of none of that. JJ: You didn’t think Puerto Rico is your home or -- SQ: No because -- I came a couple of times for vacation. That, I did. And it was great for vacation. But then, after a while, everybody that I knew here -everybody was older. So, I didn’t -- and then, to speak Spanish, it was so difficult. So, I didn’t really care if I came or if I didn’t come. You understand? JJ: Right. SQ: So, I didn’t really care. But then, after the weeks starting going by, then we were going to school. JJ: So, you come and where did you move to when you came here? The same -where you mother and father were staying? SQ: No, we stayed at my grandma’s house. And it was by my grandmother’s rules, and it was a little difficult because we already had Mom’s rule. Then we had to go by Grandma’s rule. So, we weren’t allowed to touch the television. The television turned on a certain hour. [00:34:00] And then, if you were watching something and the hour passed, they turned off the television. So, they didn’t care who was watching it. So, there were just little bits and bits of things that 23 �little kids didn’t really like. So, little by little -- but then, after a while, just old people thing. So, we just left it. So, we would play outside. Mom said, “There’s other things to do. Go outside and play.” So, that’s what we did. At least we had brothers and sisters because there was nobody else there to play with. JJ: Okay. And what’s your grandma’s name? SQ: Where we used to live? JJ: Your grandma -- yeah, where you stayed at. SQ: Carmen Rivera. JJ: Carmen Rivera, okay. And so, that’s not in Camuy though. She doesn’t live in Camuy. SQ: Yeah, she lives in Camuy. JJ: But not in the same section. Isn’t it Quebrada or no? SQ: Yeah, she lives in Quebrada. JJ: Oh, she does? SQ: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So, all the Quiles are in Quebrada. SQ: All the Quiles are here in Quebrada. JJ: In all the different spots. [00:35:00] SQ: Yes, we’re all here. Yes. JJ: So, was Daisy here at that time? SQ: Was Daisy here at that time? I don’t -- I think she was or -- I don’t remember. I know after a while, after a time, yes, I know she was here. I know they were fixing her house. I do remember that. 24 �JJ: To come. SQ: Yeah, to come. JJ: So, fixing her house to come. SQ: They were fixing her house to come. JJ: So, it was like a group of people coming to fix her house and coming to move her back to Puerto Rico. She wasn’t moving back. It was her husband, right? SQ: It was her husband’s house. I guess it’s from their family’s house. JJ: And your father is moving back because he was from here. SQ: Right. Actually, the house where my mom -- where I used to live -- Mom’s house was up. Except it didn’t have doors. It didn’t have windows. It had a floor. [00:36:00] And that’s it. It didn’t have anything else. JJ: So, your father finished it? SQ: Yeah, little by little. Actually we lived in the house. There was no light. And then, we didn’t have any furniture. We had a couple mattresses, I think maybe two beds. Mom slept on one. And then, all of us that wanted to sleep on the bed, we slept on it. If not -- you know, kids like to sleep on things that aren’t a bed. So, we just slept on mattresses. We didn’t care. (laughs) So, we had fun. We slept in a house with no television (laughs) at all and nothing really to do. I remember what we did most of the time. We played marbles all night. That, I do remember. Marbles all night, or we would sit on the porch, which there was no railing at the time. We weren’t allowed to sit close to the edge. [00:37:00] But we would go outside and -- but we were in our home, so it didn’t really matter. JJ: So, you just came over. Well, you had come before for vacation. 25 �SQ: Yeah, I came for vacation. JJ: So, you knew more or less how it looked? SQ: Yeah. JJ: So, it was an easier adjustment then (inaudible) but now you can’t go back to the U.S. How did you feel about that, I mean, at that time? SQ: Well, no, we couldn’t go back because we didn’t have anything to go back to because we were all over here. And the only thing that was there was Dad. But Dad was working. JJ: So, you didn’t get homesick? SQ: Well, no, because I was with my mom, and I was with my brothers. We did miss Dad. But we would get to talk to him over the phone. JJ: He was still over there? SQ: He was over there. He was working. He was working over there until he was able to come. And then, he came. JJ: So, you didn’t feel homesick? SQ: No, because I had Mom. It was fine. [00:38:00] JJ: So, then you took a few weeks and then you moved to your new hours? SQ: No, I think it took us a couple of months maybe. JJ: Now, you -- there were other people that you met. SQ: Well, when I went to school, I met a lot of people that knew English. So, that way it made it easier for me. Actually, one of my good friends here -- she came, I think it was from New York. So, she knew good English, and I was able to communicate with somebody that knew English that was easier for me because I 26 �would say a lot of words -- which I still do -- a lot of words that she didn’t even know what I was saying, that I would tell her in English. She goes, “No, you’re saying it wrong.” So, lucky for me that I did have a friend that did know English. [00:39:00] JJ: So, lucky for you that you had a friend that knew English. But I’m saying all the English speakers would hang out together? SQ: All of us would stick together, exactly. JJ: So, now you’ve got a little club here (inaudible)? SQ: Right. All the English people all together. JJ: But I’m not just -- I don’t want to put words in your mouth. SQ: No, but that’s the way it was. JJ: How was it? What do you mean? SQ: Yeah. That’s how it was. All the Americans or how I would say it -- we would all stick together. We would all speak in English, and it was easier for everybody else. JJ: So, you guys called yourself all the Americans or you -- that’s just -- SQ: They would call us the gringos in school. JJ: Yeah would call you that? SQ: Yes, (laughs) they would call us that. So, if somebody needed to speak to us, they would go, “Go to the corner and check in the gringo section.” And they would go straight to that spot. They already knew where we were at. We were at the same hour, the same time every single day. 27 �JJ: And what would you call it now? They called you gringos. What would you call them? SQ: We wouldn’t give them names. I mean, what could we call them? Everybody was Puerto Rican. (laughs) You can’t give them a name. JJ: So, you still look at them as Puerto Rican. SQ: Right. JJ: But they didn’t look at you? SQ: No, they looked at us as gringos, like white people. We just had an advantage. That’s it. We knew English. That was the only thing. We knew English and Spanish. So, it was a little difficult for them. And then, actually, when they needed help, they would go to us. They would go to the section there where we were at. “Oh, can you help me with my English class,” or, “Can you help me do this project in English?” They had an advantage too. As long as they were good to us, we weren’t going to be mean to anybody. (laughs) JJ: So, we’re talking about advantage. So, did it kind of make you feel like you knew more than they did? SQ: No. I wouldn’t -- no, no, no, no, no, no. JJ: Like superior? I mean -- SQ: Yeah. No. JJ: -- did it make you feel like superior to them? SQ: Not at all. Not at all. [00:41:00] JJ: Did they think you were superior to them? SQ: Some people thought that -- 28 �JJ: That you were (inaudible)? SQ: -- we would think that we would be too good for them because we knew English and they didn’t know English. JJ: Because you were too goody-goody or whatever? SQ: Yeah, that’s what they would think. But -- JJ: But that wasn’t what was going on. SQ: -- that wasn’t the point. No. It was -- we didn’t know how to speak good Spanish, so we had to speak English. JJ: Now, that wasn’t the point with you, but you think that could have been the point with some other people? SQ: No, actually, everybody that was with us -- that’s what our -- JJ: All the gringos. SQ: -- idea was. Right, all the gringos. We would always think, you know, nobody’s better than nobody. Mostly everybody that was there, they were from the church, so like Pentecostal. They had a different thinking. They liked to help everybody. JJ: So, most of the gringos? And I’m just saying -- just using that in quotation marks. SQ: Right, right, right (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). (laughter) JJ: Most of the gringos were -- some were Pentecostal? SQ: Right. JJ: Different Protestant churches? And the ones from here were more Catholic? Is that what it was? [00:42:00] SQ: I don’t know. I can’t -- no, I can’t -- 29 �JJ: But because they were from the church, they were more trying to help everybody? SQ: Yeah, they would help a lot. Yeah. JJ: And which school was that? SQ: Here at Santiago R. Palmer. JJ: Santiago R. Palmer. SQ: The only thing here is -- the school here is completely different because they have the elementary school, the high school, and -- what would be the other one? I don’t know. I know there’s another -- JJ: It’s like in between. Yeah, the in between. SQ: Yeah, the in between one. I always forget the in between. Well, here, they’re all together in one building. They have the different buildings. They would have the small section for the small kids. And then, you cross the street, which it’s all covered completely. You’re not allowed to pass. They had the other section, which would be the one in the middle. And then, they had the high school. But they’re all connected all together. Now, over there, [00:43:00] you have to go to certain schools because they’re all different. Not here. Everything’s all in one spot. JJ: So, you just -- when you graduated from grammar school, was going to middle school, and then you go into the high school in the same building. SQ: Right. JJ: You don’t go nowhere? SQ: No, you were all there. 30 �JJ: So, that’s kind of important. SQ: You just switch. JJ: Would that make you want to quit -- SQ: No. JJ: -- or would it make you want to stay in school? SQ: Because elementary school is on one side. And then, to go to middle school -you would have to cross the street to go to the middle school. And then, to go to the high school, you just cross the corner. It’s all one whole -- it’s like if it was one whole entire block. Let’s put it that way. Or we can put like six houses all together, and it made the school. JJ: So, you think that -- would that make people want to stay more in school or (inaudible)? SQ: Yeah, because they were all together. So then, all activities was for the whole entire school. So, it would be better. It’s not like, “Oh, we have to take the kid to go to this school, and then we’ve got to go now to this one.” No, everybody [00:44:00] goes to the same school. JJ: So, there’s no readjustment. SQ: Right. JJ: And so, it was easier for you to want to just stay in school. SQ: Right. JJ: But in the U.S., it’s different, right? SQ: Yes, it’s very different because, remember, elementary school is all school, all for little kids, which would go up to sixth grade, I think from kindergarten up to sixth 31 �grade, right? And then, from sixth grade to -- I don’t know what grade it is over there. Here -JJ: Middle school. SQ: Right. Here is from seventh to ninth -- JJ: But then, you had to go to a different school to -- SQ: Right. JJ: So, that’s a new adjustment. SQ: Right. Not here. Here is -- you know everybody and everybody knows you. That’s how it is. JJ: And so, when you came, you just had to adjust one time. SQ: Right. I didn’t have to worry about, “Oh my gosh. Now we’re going to another new school.” No, everything is all together. JJ: Do you think that helps? SQ: Yeah, it does. Actually, it does. You’re not changing your routine. [00:45:00] It’s all there. The only thing is the first day of school is normal. That’s it. JJ: So, what kind of uniform? SQ: Oh my god. I hated the uniforms. (laughter) I hated the uniforms. JJ: (inaudible) SQ: Well, at that time, which is still the same uniform, was brown. No, no, now they changed it. Now, they changed the uniforms. Back then it was brown and checkers. Ugly uniform. And before that was red, square red and blue and white. JJ: Checkers too or -- 32 �SQ: Checkers, yes. So, they had like two different -- no, terrible. Thank God I don’t go to school anymore. (laughs) JJ: So, was it just that you didn’t like the look or -- maybe that prevented gangs. What do you think? SQ: Actually, speaking of that, in the school I never saw gangs at all. No gangs at all. JJ: In the school in Camuy? SQ: No, no school -- at least here in Quebrada, no gangs at all. None at all. I mean, nothing. Everyone was “hi” to everyone, “bye” to everybody. Everybody was friends with everybody in school. There was no gangs of nothing. Thinking of it that way, no, nothing at all. I mean, not at all. If there was a fight, it was just that person. Nobody else got in it. And that’s it. But it’s -- I mean, I’ve never thought of it that way. But actually, there was no gangs at all, nothing. JJ: And you don’t think the uniforms had anything to do with it? SQ: No, I don’t think so. I think the uniform was just to help -- well now, we know you go to this school, and that’s it. You understand? So, we didn’t have -- JJ: So, then would -- SQ: -- any other kids -- JJ: Yeah, but if everybody -- SQ: -- coming from somebody else. JJ: -- if everybody’s wearing the same uniform, it would make them all from the same gang? SQ: No, no. JJ: If you’re looking it like a gang member would look at it. 33 �SQ: Okay. I don’t know because I’ve never -- JJ: Yeah, I know. (laughs) I’m just drawing this out. But could it be that the [00:47:00] uniform might help because everybody’s wearing the same uniform, so they’re not going to fight each other. SQ: Well, that wouldn’t make a difference. JJ: It wouldn’t make a difference? SQ: It wouldn’t make a difference. JJ: Okay. SQ: It wouldn’t make a difference because if you couldn’t stand the person and you still wanted to fight, you’re still going to fight the person whether he’s in the gang or not in the gang. Do you understand? So, it didn’t really make a difference at all. I don’t think it mattered. JJ: So, it was just the environment or the culture? SQ: I think it was the environment completely. Everybody got along with everybody. JJ: When you say environment, what do you mean? SQ: Well, I mean -- how would I put it to you? Everybody was nice to everybody. There was no, “Oh, I’m better than you and I’m this.” No, none of that at all. I mean, there was maybe like -- in every school there’s one kid that thought he was better than anybody else. But otherwise that, no. JJ: It was just one individual? SQ: Yeah, just one or maybe two (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but that’s it. [00:48:00] JJ: Yeah, but it’s no group of people. 34 �SQ: No. JJ: Now, people did hang out with their little friends, didn’t they? SQ: Yes. Every -- JJ: You had the gringo group (inaudible). SQ: Right. Everybody had certain spots. I know they do that still. JJ: Right. SQ: Everybody was with everybody. And if they would say, “Hey, come over here,” everybody would go. Everybody would have fun, and everything was perfectly fine. But being as gangs here in school, I’ve never seen it. JJ: In Quebrada? SQ: In Quebrada. I’ve never saw it, never, at least when I was in school. So, that I could tell you. JJ: But you’ve heard of other gangs in other schools though? SQ: No, I haven’t. JJ: You haven’t? SQ: No. JJ: In Puerto Rico? You haven’t heard of -- SQ: Probably there is. JJ: But you haven’t heard about it? SQ: I haven’t heard of it. I guess it’s because -- I figure my children are fine. No gangs in school. Nothing’s going really bad in school, so I didn’t really worry about it. I didn’t worry. JJ: So, even the gringos got along with the ones from here. [00:49:00] 35 �SQ: Yeah. Everybody got along. JJ: And the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SQ: Yeah. Everybody got along with everybody. JJ: -- easier to communicate. SQ: Right. JJ: But there was some little -- SQ: There’s always that petty talk and that stuff always. It doesn’t matter where you live. It doesn’t matter who you are. That’s always everywhere. JJ: So, what do you think contributed in the environment? What was the good thing in the environment that made people not want to be in gangs? SQ: I think it’s because everybody’s straight out. I was taught from my mom if you don’t like something say it, but say it to the person. So, I guess that’s how everybody was. JJ: Straightforward? SQ: Right. Everybody let you know, but not in a bad way, let you understand, “Hey, I didn’t like it.” And I think that’s the best. JJ: So, people -- SQ: And I’ve taught my son that. If you don’t like something, don’t make them feel bad, but just let them know that you didn’t like it. JJ: Why would you tell your son that? SQ: I would tell my son so that if there was something that he [00:50:00] didn’t like from somebody, that that person did, just let them know, “I don’t like what you said. Don’t do it again.” 36 �JJ: But why wouldn’t you hold it in? SQ: Why would you hold it in? Then you get mad and you get upset. Then you hate the person. And then, what comes out of that? Nothing. So, just let the person know, “I didn’t like it.” And if you tell them you don’t like it, they won’t do it again. That’s it. JJ: So, you think that’s better. If you hold it in, it’s worse -- SQ: Right. JJ: -- than if you tell somebody? SQ: I think it is. JJ: But why? I don’t understand? SQ: You don’t understand? JJ: No. SQ: Well, because sometimes, if you hold it in and then they do it again, you get more upset. And then, they do it again and you get more upset because you didn’t say anything. And then, you get really mad and really mad. And then, what’s the next thing? You’re going to argue with the person because of it. So, just let them know straight off the first time, “I didn’t like it.” But say it in a nice way, not in a bad, nasty way. Tell them in a nice way, “I didn’t like it. Can you please not do it again?” And then, I guess they -- most people would get it. “I’m not going to do it again because [00:51:00] I don’t want to hurt their feelings.” So, they don’t do it again. JJ: So, you’re trying to teach your children communication. 37 �SQ: Right. That’s the best. If you communicate with the person, nobody’s going to argue. No one’s going to fight. No one’s going to think you’re better than anybody. You’re just the same person as everybody else. That’s how I see it. JJ: And most of the people in the area, in Quebrada, were -- taught their children to be like that or to be straightforward? SQ: Well, most of my friends, when I was in school -- that’s how I know their kids are because, when my son is at the house, I usually end up with his friends, and that’s how his friends are with him. “I didn’t like that.” They let them know. They communicate. That’s good. I always tell them, “That’s better than arguing. That’s better than fighting.” It’s the best way. I guess that’s the way Mom and Dad showed us. JJ: Okay, well, that’s a good point. Mom and Dad. You had Mom and Dad. [00:52:00] SQ: Right. JJ: But did most of the children around here have a mom and dad? SQ: Yes. Like I said, at least the ones that I know of, yes, they do. JJ: So, they have both parents in their house? SQ: Yes, yes. There could be maybe one or two that didn’t. But they still knew because their parents would show them. Either the mom or their dad would show them. JJ: Okay. So, even if they didn’t have Mom and Dad, they still had a strong person to -- SQ: Right. 38 �JJ: -- like a mother or father that raised them -- SQ: Right. JJ: -- and taught them how to communicate. That’s what you’re saying? SQ: Yeah. JJ: Okay. That’s good insight. So, did you have your quinceañera here or -- SQ: No, no. JJ: Did you -- SQ: I didn’t. Why -- I mean, we came to Puerto Rico a month before my 15th. So, I did get a little birthday party. I felt really bad because I know [00:53:00] my mom felt too because she invited a few of my friends and nobody came. (laughs) But the people that were there -- I had fun. It was okay. JJ: But some people came. SQ: Yeah, I think one of my friends. One. (laughter) And the rest of it was the family, like my cousins. JJ: Because you didn’t know anybody. SQ: Yeah, that was the problem. We didn’t know anybody at all. JJ: Because I always know your mom is -- when she invites people, there’s a lot of people (inaudible). SQ: Yes, there’s always big gatherings at the house, always. Yeah. But we didn’t know anybody at all. We were just coming here. We hadn’t -- I didn’t know anybody. I only knew one person really. And then, that’s when I started knowing more people from school, little by little. 39 �JJ: So, now you’re -- are you relating to your aunts and uncles here? How is life now? Once you’re back -- now with your -- at your father’s house, right, at your house? [00:54:00] SQ: When I’m with my dad, at Dad’s house? JJ: Yeah. SQ: Well, I would see my aunts and uncles if we would go to their house or if we would see them at my grandma’s gatherings at her house. That’s when I would see all of my aunts and uncles. JJ: So, gatherings. So, certain special days of the year? SQ: Yeah. Sometimes they would do Grandma’s birthday or Thanksgiving. JJ: So, what was that like? I mean, (inaudible) -- SQ: Oh my gosh. That’s -- JJ: People show up or -- SQ: -- too many people. Too many, yeah. Well, my grandma had 12 kids. So, imagine that by probably each family five maybe. Could be less, but I don’t think so. (laughs) So, it’s a lot of people, a lot. JJ: So, people showed up? SQ: Big gatherings, yeah. JJ: Did they play music or anything? [00:55:00] SQ: No, hardly ever. There was hardly ever any music. I didn’t think they really needed the music because everybody was talking and you couldn’t hear anything anyway. 40 �JJ: Right. Was it -- they didn’t because of religion or something? They didn’t believe in (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SQ: I think it was because of Grandma. My grandmother didn’t like the music. She would say it’s too much noise. So, they wouldn’t put music, at least at my grandma’s house. No music at all. At all. No one was allowed to put music on. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) SQ: But I know my uncles -- they would play the guitar. And they would play with the güiro and the maracas. That, I know they would do (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), which they didn’t really how to touch it. JJ: [Armando?] and them? SQ: Yeah. They didn’t really know how to play the music and stuff, but they would do their little movements here and there. And everybody would laugh and sing at the same time. JJ: Right. SQ: So, it was good. JJ: So, you didn’t go at all to San Salvador though? You didn’t go to Caguas or -- SQ: Yeah, I did actually. [00:56:00] I stayed there when my Aunt -- JJ: Because that’s your mother’s side -- SQ: -- Mirna lived there. JJ: -- of the family. 41 �SQ: Right. I was there when (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Titi Mina was there. And then, Titi Lacey and Tío Israel, when they had -- they were living in the house -- JJ: Oh, they were. SQ: -- that was there. I did stay there. I do remember Tío a lot. He would always be fixing the -- the back part, there was a little stream or a little -- JJ: Back -- in the back. You’re right. SQ: -- tiny stream. He would always make sure -- you’ve got to keep the rocks this way so the water doesn’t over pour on this side. And I do remember when it would rain a lot, the water would grow. JJ: You’re talking about Israel? SQ: Yeah. JJ: Tío Israel. So, he would be playing with the (inaudible). SQ: He would make sure -- it wouldn’t be -- I wouldn’t call it fixing -- you know, playing with it. I would think he would just be more fixing it so the water wouldn’t go towards his house. I do remember that. I do remember him always outside. I’ll never forget that. [00:57:00] And he still does it. He’s always outside in the yard, him and his yardwork. He doesn’t know the words “stay still.” (laughs) That I do realize a lot here from the older Puerto Ricans. Like I have a neighbor. She’s old. She’s really old. And she doesn’t stay still at all. I either see her with a shovel in her hands -- she’s always doing something. And I was like, “Can you be still?” She won’t be still. She’s constantly with the shovel. “No, I have to do this, and I have to plant this.” She’s either planting tomatoes or peppers, 42 �something. She’s always doing something. And I realize most Puerto Ricans from the older time -- that’s what they do. They’re always planting something, always. JJ: So, as you go over there, was he planting anything? [00:58:00] Was Israel planting anything at the house? SQ: Tío, he always did. Always, always. I can’t tell you one thing that he -- he’s always -- he always -- I do remember, without a doubt, we always had banana trees, always. JJ: Over there? SQ: Always. He always had banana trees. That I do remember. JJ: At that house? SQ: Yep. And then, I think -- the first time I saw -- to me, it was fascinating was -they would do the rice. And then, they would put these bananas leaves on it. The first time I saw it, I was like, “Why are they putting grass on the rice?” (laughter) I never knew what it was. And then, you know, after a while, they would explain to me. If gives it better taste to the Puerto Rican rice. I was like, “Oh, okay.” To me, that was like -- wow. Why would you put grass or a plant inside your rice? I never figured that one out until little by little you start learning the old tricks the old people do. I mean, I’m [00:59:00] not saying that they’re really old. But the older, older people would do that. JJ: Okay. When I came here the first time, I started discovering new things. I was even eating grass because I thought -- they would give it to me and I would eat it. SQ: Grass? 43 �JJ: I mean, different -- SQ: It would probably recao. JJ: No, they were playing with me. They would bring me a food and then they would give me a grass. SQ: How would they do that? That’s not nice. JJ: I mean, they would (inaudible) I’m just -- but I was learning things. I was fascinated. I was learning things (inaudible) like that. So, what sort of things were you learning as you came here? SQ: Well, I did learn recao goes in the food here. (laughs) I never knew that. I knew my mom, in Aurora -- they would buy it, but it would be already fixed up and everything. But then, I saw Dad one time -- or I think it was my mom -- taking out stuff. I was like, “Mom, why are you going to put grass in the food?” She goes, “It’s not grass. Smell it.” I was like, “I’m not smelling that.” And then, once I started cutting and figuring it out, what’s it for, and she would explain to me, [01:00:00] I was like, “Wow, all these different things that you don’t see in the states at all, you get it here anywhere.” I mean, any piece of grass you can find it. It’s like if it’s wild stuff, they put it in the food. And it tastes really good. JJ: So, the recao you got to know that. SQ: Yeah, the cilantrillo. JJ: Cilantrillo. SQ: That’s also -- JJ: What about fixing different food? Did you learn how to fix different food? SQ: Yeah. Mom showed me, and Dad did too. Dad cooks really good. (laughs) 44 �JJ: Really? SQ: Yeah. Mom showed us, my sister and me, how to do certain foods with certain stuff, like the recao, the cilantrillo. Well, they would call it -- what? Recao? JJ: Yeah. SQ: Not the recao, sofrito. It would be the sofrito. JJ: Sofrito. SQ: Yes. JJ: She showed you that? She showed [01:01:00] how to do the sofrito? SQ: She showed me how to do that. That’s -- JJ: So, what is -- SQ: Sofrito is -- well, it would be something that you would stick to taste, give a good Puerto Rican taste to the food, which it would have recao, cilantrillo, onions, green beans -- I mean, not green beans -- what was -- JJ: Peppers? SQ: -- green peppers, yes, green peppers, and especially -- JJ: Onions? SQ: -- and especially ajo, especially that. JJ: So, you can’t get that over at the -- SQ: The ajo, yeah. You can get ajo in -- that would be garlic. JJ: Oh, garlic (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SQ: Yes. JJ: That would have been (inaudible) those three peppers too, right? 45 �SQ: That would be aji dulce, yes. You have to. If you don’t put that in and you don’t put recao, that’s no sofrito. (laughs) You have to have those two. Those are the very first thing everybody runs to get to do the sofrito. It is your recao and your aji dulce. [01:02:00] JJ: Okay. You’ve got to have that in there? SQ: You have to have that in there. JJ: Now, do they put tomato in there or no? They don’t (inaudible). SQ: My mom never did. But some people do it. But my mom never did it. She liked it -- the green one, not the red on. JJ: Do you fry anything like tocino or anything to put the flavor or no? SQ: Yeah, it all depends what rice you’re going to do. JJ: Oh, that’s for the rice -- SQ: Right. JJ: -- but not for the sofrito. SQ: Yeah, yeah. You can do it whichever way you want to. You could do it by itself. You could put beans in it. You could do whatever. JJ: So, you could put whatever you want in the sofrito? SQ: Yeah, whatever you want. JJ: So, you do that first. And you cook that first. And then, you put the (inaudible). SQ: And then, I put everything in. JJ: And you put the rice in it. SQ: Right. JJ: Okay. That’s a good one. Now I know how to do that. (laughter) 46 �SQ: You didn’t know how to do that one, did you? JJ: (inaudible) SQ: A lot of people say, “Oh, Puerto Rican food is difficult.” I don’t know if it’s because I’m Puerto Rican, but it’s easy. I remember the first time my mom showed me how to cook. She could have showed me the easiest thing to make, and it was the first thing I burned, which was white rice. I burned it. And my mom goes, “What smells?” [01:03:00] I go, “Well, I cooked rice.” She says, “You didn’t lower the fire.” (laughs) So, I burned it. I do remember that. And that was the first time I ever cooked. That was in Aurora. Very first time. JJ: Now, when you were in Aurora, did you tell people you were Puerto Rican or you were American? SQ: I guess they already knew the way we would speak. JJ: But you didn’t have an accent. I mean, you grew up there. SQ: Well, I guess probably -- I don’t know -- I probably did. JJ: But you’re saying people knew that you were Puerto Rican? SQ: Yeah, I was called -- sometimes I was called Mexican. I would say, “I’m not Mexican. I’m Puerto Rican. I’m full blooded Puerto Rican.” And I would say I’m full blooded because my mom and my dad -- they’re both Puerto Ricans. JJ: Right. Even though you were born here. SQ: Right. JJ: Okay. But you felt like you were -- SQ: I was still Puerto Rican. [01:04:00] I mean, my mom and my dad were Puerto Rican. I would call myself an American Puerto Rican. 47 �JJ: Okay. So, you came here already feeling Puerto Rican. But then, you came here and you wanted to be gringa. SQ: I came here, I felt like a mouse (laughs) because I didn’t know what I was doing. I was afraid of everything. JJ: You were afraid? SQ: Right. But then, that is a point. I came here -- JJ: Afraid of the people or -- SQ: I was afraid of everything because everything was different. Everything was completely different. The roads were different as in the roads over there are straight. And over here, it’s just curves and curves and the mountains and curves. It’s scary. And then, all you can see is -- you look down the side and all you can see is a cliff. And you look on the other side, you can see another cliff. And I was like, “I’m just looking straight.” (laughter) You feel like a little mouse. [01:05:00] JJ: But that’s in the road. But I mean, did the people make you feel like -- make you shy or no? SQ: Well, in school, yeah, because I didn’t know. I didn’t know how to speak good Spanish. I knew a lot of stuff, but I didn’t know good Spanish. I still don’t know good Spanish. Don’t get the wrong. Because I still give that Spanglish. If I don’t know what I’m saying, I’ll say it in English, or if I don’t understand it in English, I’ll say it in Spanish. But I just feel like a little tiny mouse because you don’t know where you’re at and you don’t know what you’re doing. I guess it would be like that everywhere you would go new. So, it’s just adapting little by little. 48 �JJ: So, it definitely made you feel kind of shy in the beginning. SQ: Right. JJ: But you don’t feel like that now? SQ: No, not at all. JJ: Okay, not at all? SQ: Not at all. JJ: Your neighbors know that, right. (laughter) SQ: Yeah, the neighbors hear me from a mile away. I’m just kidding. [01:06:00] JJ: But I mean, you’ve got a whole -- all those neighbors around you know you, right? I mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SQ: Yes, I know all of my neighbors. JJ: You know a lot of people in the barrio. SQ: Yes, I do, especially my neighbors. I know all my neighbors. And I guess it would be like the States, “Hi,” and, “Bye,” and that’s it. But the only difference is we can keep our doors open. That’s the only difference. JJ: You couldn’t do that in Aurora? SQ: No, not at all. JJ: Because you can keep your doors open and your neighbors know -- they watch out too, or no? SQ: Yeah because sometimes -- like an example, if I’m sick or something and the neighbor knows you’re sick, all the sudden you see your neighbor comes up with a bowl of soup in their hands. You know, “I made you some soup.” And the other neighbor comes and goes, “Oh, I made you some supper.” That’s how the 49 �neighbors here are. We try to take care of one another. So, if something’s wrong with one and then -- [01:07:00] we just try to communicate. Some neighbors are good. Not all neighbors are good. Don’t get me wrong. JJ: There’s one or two that are not (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? SQ: I guess in every place, there’s always one person that doesn’t like this or one person that doesn’t like that. Do you understand? It’s not here. It’s not there. It’s everywhere. It doesn’t matter. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) what I’m trying to find is what would -- in this place, what would make somebody not like their neighbor or their neighbor not liking you? SQ: I guess -- JJ: I mean, for what kind of things would they be angry about? SQ: I don’t know. Maybe, I guess, they’re just grouches or -- I don’t know -- or they just -- JJ: Did you go on their grass or something? SQ: No. That’s a good thing. Here, there’s very, very little houses with fences, I mean, that don’t have a fence because all the houses here have fences. So, it doesn’t matter [01:08:00] whether you walk on the grass or not because the only one that’s going to walk on the grass is you because it’s your house. Now, over there -- and I know in Aurora. JJ: But there’s always grass in the front. I mean, there’s always -- SQ: Yeah. But that part -- they don’t really care because they usually say that’s the government. 50 �JJ: Oh okay. SQ: Because actually the government’s the one who cuts the grass. But inside -here, I think maybe one -- you can go all the way down the road, and you can find one house that has no fence. All the rest of the houses have to have fences. I like my house without a fence. But I got lucky. I ended up with a house with a fence. JJ: But before they didn’t have fences -- I mean, they did have -- I guess they had some made out of -- it wasn’t fancy fences. Now, they’re more fancy. SQ: Yeah, now they’re more fancy. JJ: They’re more fancy. SQ: I do remember pictures that they did show me, which was my ex-mother in law -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) how many years (inaudible)? [01:09:00] SQ: I’ve been here -- in this house? JJ: No, in (inaudible). SQ: Oh my gosh. I don’t remember. Twenty -- JJ: Is it that long? SQ: Yeah, 27, 28, something like that. JJ: Wow, okay. So, your neighbors, as you were saying -- what were you saying? SQ: I don’t even remember. JJ: I did you stop you there. Sorry. SQ: That’s okay. (laughs) JJ: We were talking about the neighbors. 51 �SQ: Okay. My ex-mother in law -- she showed me pictures. When she came here, there was -- actually where I live now, there was this house, the house in the front, and the house on the side. And there were no other houses except two more houses all the way down on the corner. That’s it. No more houses. Now, there’s houses everywhere. And then, the road was a dirt road. It was just no tar, no straight, nice, clean street. No, everything [01:10:00] was just a dirt road. JJ: So, they just put the cement road. SQ: Not now. I mean -- JJ: A long time ago. SQ: Yeah. But when she came -- JJ: When she came, it wasn’t here. SQ: -- there was no road really here. There was just dirt. It was a dirt road. JJ: But so, now it’s pretty -- most of the houses, when there’s like a hurricane, there’s no problem, right? SQ: No, not -- unless your house is made out of wood. That’s really it. But there’s hardly any houses nowadays made out of wood. They’re very few, and the very few is -- they’re little, tiny houses. JJ: In the United States, in Florida, they even have cement houses that are messed up. But they have glass though. SQ: The glass broken? JJ: Yeah, they had glass. SQ: Well, yeah, that happens here with the glass. JJ: Glass (inaudible). 52 �SQ: Yeah. But otherwise that -- JJ: Otherwise the house is pretty sound? SQ: I don’t know about mine because mine’s really old, old house. I don’t know (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) how old it’s been. [01:11:00] Yeah, as long as it’s cement, it’s good. JJ: So, you finished school. You finished high school? Did you finish that or no? SQ: (inaudible) to say, no I didn’t finish. JJ: You didn’t? When did you drop out? SQ: I dropped out, I think, when I was in 11th, 10th and 11th because I had so many classes back -- JJ: You only needed one more year. One more -- SQ: Right. I -- no, no. JJ: Because it’s -- SQ: Not because I needed one more year. I needed more than one more year because I had ninth grade Spanish, 10th grade Spanish, 11th grade Spanish. (laughs) You see, the Spanish was difficult for me. So, I just dropped out. And what I did was I took my GED. JJ: Oh, you got your GED. SQ: Yeah, [01:12:00] I took half the GED. I didn’t take the other half. JJ: Wait a minute. You dropped out of 11th because you were having difficulty. SQ: No, I dropped out in ninth grade. JJ: Oh, in ninth grade because you were having difficulty? 53 �SQ: Yes, because remember whether I am taking 11th grade classes, I’m still in ninth grade because I didn’t finish my Spanish. So, I’m still in ninth grade when I’m taking 11th grade classes. JJ: Right. Hold on one second. (break in audio) JJ: Okay, so we’re talking about some of the reasons why you wanted to drop out. SQ: Well, I dropped out because I wasn’t doing anything in school. I was just fooling around. I didn’t really -- Mom thought -- JJ: Fooling around with a boyfriend -- SQ: I didn’t care. JJ: -- or something? SQ: No, no, no, no. I didn’t care. I didn’t know Spanish. I didn’t really care what I was doing. You’re young and you’re stupid. And you don’t think of the future. You just think, “Oh, I want to have a good time,” and that’s it. [01:13:00] So, I ended up dropping out. I took the GED. I did that. And when while I was taking my GED, I was taking cosmetology school at the same time. JJ: How old were you? SQ: So, I took my test. JJ: But you dropped out for a few years first? Or was it just one year -- SQ: No, I just -- JJ: Right away, you dropped -- SQ: Right away, right away. JJ: -- and then started cosmetology? 54 �SQ: A couple months -- yes, a couple months later, I took -- JJ: And then, (inaudible). SQ: I took my GED. I was old enough to take my GED. I took it. Then, I went -- I took cosmetology. I did that for a few years, and I have my license and my diploma. JJ: So, you took cosmetology for a few years. So, you graduated? You said you got your license. SQ: From cosmetology. JJ: What is cosmetology? What is that? SQ: I cut hair. I do girl stuff, like I say. JJ: Oh, okay. I call them barbers. SQ: Of course, because barbers are the guys. The guys do the hair. (laughter) I’m a cosmetologist. I do all girl stuff. [01:14:00] So, I figured out, “Okay, I’m not going to just sit down, not do nothing.” So, I went to school. I did that. Actually, I got that -- you usually have to pay. I got it free. I didn’t want to -- JJ: Now, see, that’s creative. So, you’re more creative. So, that’s something that you would like to do. SQ: Right. JJ: The school was getting boring. You didn’t -- SQ: Yeah, it was really boring. (laughs) JJ: I’m just trying to find out why you dropped out. SQ: I was fooling around. I was just a girl that liked to have fun, didn’t want to do school stuff. I didn’t care about school. I didn’t really care. So, like I said, 55 �(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I was young and stupid. I didn’t think of my future. JJ: Yeah. But I mean, do you know why you didn’t care? SQ: No. That’s what I’m saying. I was young and stupid. I didn’t care of anything. And then -- JJ: You just didn’t have any goals. SQ: Right. JJ: Is that what you’re trying to say? SQ: Right, right. I didn’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) have any goals in life at that time. At that time, I didn’t care what I was going to do.” JJ: So, you weren’t thinking about what you were going to do -- SQ: No, I wasn’t thinking of anything. JJ: -- ten years from now. But then, you got into cosmetology. SQ: I got into cosmetology. [01:15:00] JJ: So, why did you get into that? SQ: Because I liked it. Mom says, “If you like it so much, why don’t you go to school?” JJ: So, you were doing it anyway? SQ: I was doing hair and makeup in my house. So, Mom said, “Well, if you like it, do it.” So, I did. I went. I took cosmetology. I did that. I liked it. Then I ended up working in different salons. JJ: Okay. So, you did get a job doing that. SQ: Yes, I did get a job doing that. 56 �JJ: So, you have theory and practice. You have done that. Then you got a license. SQ: Right. JJ: Okay, so, actually you can do that -- that’s a business. SQ: Right, I could if I want to. But it gets boring. At least -- I get bored after a while. I don’t understand why. I like to do different things because I get bored. JJ: Well, some people are creative. And some people are -- SQ: I like to do the stuff -- JJ: -- they make -- they’re day to day stuff. So, there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, I -- what I’m saying is there’s difference. SQ: Oh, okay. JJ: You know that. [01:16:00] So, that’s probably why you get bored. You’re more the creative type. SQ: Right. I (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) did like to do hair because I could do different stuff. And I did makeup because it was different. I didn’t like to cut hair. I did do it, but I didn’t like it. It wasn’t a passion for me. But I liked to comb hair because, remember, once you comb hair, it’s one hairstyle. It’s a different thing. You’re going to do something different. So, that’s what I like to do. I guess I like to be the different one. JJ: But I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I mean, that’s what I’m thinking, that you’re a creator. I don’t know if you’re a creator or not. SQ: I hope so. (laughter) I hope so. So then, after that, I worked in a few salons. Then I worked in the mall for a while. I did have my son though also. So, I was a single mom. I was married. 57 �JJ: What’s your son’s name? SQ: Andrew. JJ: Andrew? SQ: I was married. Then I guess young and stupid. We got divorced. JJ: So, you were married before. To whom was that? SQ: To Alex. JJ: Alex? SQ: Yeah. JJ: Now, was he from here? SQ: Yeah. He was from New York. JJ: Oh, that was [Posty?]. I remember him, Posty. They used to call him Posty? SQ: Yes. JJ: I remember because -- SQ: They used to make fun of him. JJ: -- I came to visit. When I came to visit, they called him Posty because you were always hanging out -- onto the [post?]. SQ: Yeah, he’s so tall. (laughter) JJ: Right. SQ: He is so tall and I’m so short. But like I say, young and stupid. I got married when I was 21. I had my son. JJ: Young and stupid meaning -- because you were with him for a while though, right? SQ: Yeah, I was with him about seven, eight years. We got married. 58 �JJ: And he was from New York? SQ: He was from New York. JJ: He grew up in New York City? SQ: Yeah, he grew up there and then came here. And I guess I was his [01:18:00] girlfriend from high school. So, I ended up with him one year of marriage, one year, just one year. JJ: You guys just didn’t get along? SQ: No, at all. Like I’ve always said, he’s a great person. He’s a good dad. And I couldn’t -- picked the best father for my child. But as a husband, I don’t want him, not even as a gift. (laughs) We get along. We still do get along. We get along. JJ: So, he did not have husband skills as (inaudible)? SQ: I guess we were, like I said, young and stupid. We were both stubborn. It was what I wanted. It was what he wanted. So, two people butting heads is not easy. JJ: But he was not abusive or anything? SQ: No, no, no, no. JJ: Just stubborn. SQ: Just stubborn. JJ: Okay. Just a couple thing. SQ: Stubborn. JJ: So then, you -- [01:19:00] is he Andrew’s father? SQ: Yes, he’s Andrew’s dad. Yes. We get along for our child’s sake. Even though I say my child -- he’s, what, 19. 59 �JJ: But Victoria is Victor’s? SQ: Right. Victoria is from my second. JJ: From your second. Okay. SQ: I’m staying with that one. (laughs) That’s good enough. I’m going right now -with my second husband -- on 17 years. I did -- JJ: Some people do -- SQ: -- I am 17 years. JJ: Some people do marry a few times. SQ: Yeah, you’re the only (inaudible). (laughter) JJ: I’m not in the interview. This is yours. So, your son is born. Where was he born? SQ: We only lasted a year of marriage. JJ: He was born here? SQ: Yes, he was born here. He was born in Arecibo. JJ: In the hospital in Arecibo. [01:20:00] So now you’re a mother. How does that feel? SQ: Great. I love my kids. That’s the best feeling, the best feeling you can get, being a mama. JJ: So, that was a good thing? SQ: Every day is something different. Every day. JJ: So, how was he growing up? SQ: He was a quiet child, quiet, didn’t bother me, just quiet. I mean, I couldn’t ask for the best child -- and then, the first one usually is so difficult. It was so easy for 60 �me. I guess it was because -- since my brother was small, I already had the practice with my brother because my mom would have put me to babysit. So, it was easier for me for my son. JJ: You’re talking about Danny. SQ: Yeah, Danny. JJ: Danny was small, so you were babysitting Danny. SQ: Yeah. JJ: So, that was like practice. SQ: I guess. I would call it practice, yeah. JJ: Were you changing diapers and things like that? So, you already knew how to [01:21:00] (inaudible). SQ: I knew how to handle that, yes. JJ: How to handle all the yelling and screaming? (laughs) SQ: Yeah. And then, well, Andrew, he’s -- what -- 19 now. I still call him my baby, still my baby. But 19 and he’s tall, really tall. JJ: And he went to school -- didn’t he got to -- SQ: Yeah, he went to school. He’s a chef now. JJ: He’s a chef? SQ: Yeah, he went to culinary school. He’s a chef. JJ: So, did he finish his high school or no? SQ: Yes, he finished high school. JJ: And then, he went to culinary school, or did he go to college? SQ: Yes, he went to -- no, he went to culinary school. 61 �JJ: Okay, he went to culinary school. Okay. And now that’s what he’s doing? He’s a chef? SQ: Yes, he’s a chef. I think he wants to go to Virginia to go study something else. I’m not sure what the something else is. But I know he wants to keep studying. But sometimes he wants to go, sometimes he doesn’t. I told him, “You’ve got to make up your mind because life is short. Do what you like to do now because life is short.” Do it right. I let him -- I let my child learn [01:22:00] the hard way and I don’t know if that’s because that’s what my parents showed me, you have to learn the hard way. They didn’t always give it to you, “Here, take this,” in a silver platter, “Do it this way.” They said, “Is that’s what you want, you have to earn it.” So, that’s how I show my child, my two kids. So, my daughter -- yeah, she’s a spoiled one. (laughs) JJ: But do you think they mean -- when they say you learn the hard way, do you think they mean you’ve got to work hard or -- SQ: I had to work for what I wanted. JJ: Right. You think that that’s -- SQ: Right. JJ: -- what they meant or -- SQ: Right, yeah. JJ: -- or learn the -- SQ: No, no, not -- JJ: “I learned the hard way and I’m (inaudible).” 62 �SQ: Well, everybody’s different. You understand? But my mom showed us -- I can’t give it to you because then you’re not going to know what the value is. Do you understand? So, you have to work for it. JJ: So, you have to work. SQ: Right. So, you have to work for what you want, like my son. My son says, “Oh, my car broke down.” “What do you want me to do?” [01:23:00] “Can you give me some money?” “No, go get a job.” And that’s why I -- I try to show my daughter too. I didn’t have everything handed to me in my hands. I have to figure out how am I going to get it so I can get a better life? How can I do it? What can I do so you can get it better? That’s what she says, “Well, if you give me a dollar, I can use 50 cents and I can save the rest.” And I got, “That’s (inaudible) way to earn your money because I’m not going to give you what you want.” Nowadays, everybody goes, “Oh, so you’ll shut up and leave me alone, I’ll go buy it.” No, I’m not going to do that. Even though my kids are spoiled because I do try to give them everything they do want. But I try to show them a certain point. I’ll give you half, but you’ve got to give the other half so then you can get what you want. Because they’re not going to learn the value. And that’s how my mom showed me. [01:24:00] I guess it’s the way they say -- the way your mom teaches you, that’s the way you’re going to teach your kids in the future. And that is so true. That is so true. JJ: So, what about Victoria? How did you feel when she was born? That’s a different -- SQ: Oh my gosh. It was completely -- 63 �JJ: So, you were separated for one and then you got married. SQ: We weren’t separated at all. We were -- JJ: I mean, you were in your -- SQ: My husband? JJ: -- Andrew’s -- SQ: -- Andrew, yeah. But Andrew’s father is apart. I was with Victor. Victoria is Victor’s. JJ: So, he left right away after the birth. SQ: Well, because -- JJ: So, actually Victor raised Andrew. SQ: Andrew, right. JJ: Oh, Victor raised Andrew too. SQ: Yes. Victor’s been with Andrew since he was two years old. JJ: Okay. That’s what I was -- okay. So, Victor raised him too. SQ: Yeah, they both did because the dad was always there for his son, always. There was no doubt about that. He was always with his child no matter what. JJ: Okay. So, he’s been in contact with Andrew? SQ: Yeah, always, always. JJ: Okay. SQ: No matter what. If [01:25:00] there’s a problem, I call his father, let him know. JJ: Everybody gets along? 64 �SQ: Everybody gets along. That’s the first and the main thing, I always say. Good communication with the dad’s child because you need him. It takes two people to show your child. Not only one did it, both. JJ: What do you mean, it takes two people? SQ: Well, because he’s a boy. If she was a girl, I could show her the girl things. Now, he’s a boy. Who is he supposed to go to? He could go to my husband. But he had to go to his dad so his dad would explain to him -- which my husband would explain to him and tell him things, but his dad also had to do that because that’s Dad’s part. And that’s the good thing of life. “I’m a dad. My son asks me these questions. What do I tell him?” Do you understand? JJ: So, Victoria -- we’re talking about Victoria now. [01:26:00] SQ: Oh, Victoria. Well, what do you want to know about Victoria? She’s -- JJ: Well, just -- I mean, she was a little girl when -- just to (inaudible). SQ: She’s a firecracker. JJ: She’s part of your story. SQ: My son was nice and calm. Now, this one’s the firecracker. (laughs) JJ: And she’s going to see this later. Explain what you mean. Explain what you mean. SQ: Well, she’s too hyper. And she’s just -- she listens and she wants to know everything. “What’s that? And what do you use that for? And why do you have that? And I don’t understand.” You know, these questions. Why, what -- too many questions, I tell you. It’s too many questions. “Calm down. Wait a second. Mom will answer one at a time.” [01:27:00] And she’s like, “Hurry, hurry, hurry, 65 �hurry, hurry.” So, she wants to know more. So, I guess she’s just -- she’s not easy to handle. She’s a great daughter. She’s great. And that -- I won’t deny it. But she just -- I guess her brain is just like, “What’s that for? I want to know.” If there is something that I don’t know -- actually in the computer -- I end up calling, “Victoria, I don’t understand this. Can you help me?” She’s nine years old, and she’ll just do it right away. She goes, “Mom, you’ve got to do this, this, this.” Nowadays, it’s like, “Wow, what happened?” Kids are just -- they know more than older people now. I guess the problem is also -- I never babied my kids. I showed my kids as an adult. So, my daughter talks as an adult. I guess that helps also. JJ: Now, what do they think? Are they Puerto Rican or how do they feel? [01:28:00] SQ: Who, my kids? JJ: Yeah. Or do they even think like that? SQ: My kid does, yeah, both of my kids. “I’m Puerto Rican. My mom and my dad are Puerto Rican.” Andrew’s dad is half Cuban. JJ: Oh, he is half Cuban. SQ: So, he does certain things and says certain things that are different than what we do. JJ: Different words. SQ: Yeah, different words. JJ: Different accents and stuff like that. SQ: Yeah. 66 �JJ: I guess what I’m trying to say is what does that mean to you? I mean, Puerto Rican -- I mean, I’m just trying to figure out -- SQ: What does it mean to me? JJ: Because you were born in (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SQ: Hey, I’m proud. I’m proud. I’m proud of being Puerto Rican. I am proud of being Puerto Rican. And I’m proud of being an American. So, I mean, people -- JJ: So, how can you balance both things? That’s what I’m trying to get at. SQ: How would I balance it? JJ: Yeah. SQ: Well, I mean, [01:29:00] there’s not really much of a difference. We do the things almost the same except we speak it in Spanish and they speak it in English. Because an example -- if I want to make rice -- you can’t tell me an American doesn’t know how to make rice. The only thing is they do it their way and we do it our way. It’s the same thing. They teach their kids probably -- they give them -what -- time out. We just give them, “You’re grounded. Get in the room.” It’s the same exact thing. It’s just -- they would probably think a different culture. But I just think it’s the same. There’s no difference really. We’re all the same. I don’t think there’s anything -- I bet if you asked a Mexican, “What would you think of being an American,” they’d probably say the same exact thing. “We’re all the same.” JJ: But they’re Mexican from Mexico and then you guys are Americans from the United States. [01:30:00] And you’re Puerto Ricans. 67 �SQ: But that doesn’t make a difference. That’s what I’m trying to tell you. We’re all the same. They eat probably the same things we eat. You understand? JJ: We’re all human beings. You’re saying we’re all human beings? SQ: Yeah, we’re all humans. Doesn’t matter -- JJ: Or is that -- am I putting words in your mouth? SQ: No, no, no. You’re not putting words in my mouth. JJ: We’re all human beings. SQ: We’re all the same. We don’t -- it doesn’t really -- JJ: But we are from different countries. SQ: Well, we all have different cultures, all, everybody because whether -- one thing that makes me laugh is -- I’ve heard a lot of people say, “Oh, I’m not Black. I’m Puerto Rican.” What do you think a Puerto Rican is? A Puerto Rican is -- I say it as a joke. I say a Puerto Rican is a mutt. That’s what I say. But I say it fooling around because we’re mixed. We’re half Indian, half what -- Taíno. Right? That would be an Indian. Some of us are dark skin. Some of our light skin. Some of us are blonde. We have different cultures in us. [01:31:00] So, people say, “Oh, I’m not Black.” “Yeah, you are Black. You’re half Black no matter what.” “Oh, I don’t have this color skin.” “Yes, you do because you’re Puerto Rican.” That’s how I see it. JJ: So, if you’re Black, you’re Puerto Rican, you mean? SQ: I see it that way. JJ: Because we come from different cultures. 68 �SQ: We come from different cultures. I would call it hodgepodge of a lot of mixed stuff all stuck in one. JJ: But what are the main cultures that Puerto Ricans come from? SQ: I think it’s -- if I’m not mistaken, Taíno. JJ: Taíno’s one of them. SQ: Right, the Taíno. JJ: Okay. But they didn’t teach that in school in the school year? SQ: Yeah, they did. But you’re asking me -- how many years ago? I don’t remember. (laughter) JJ: I mean, did they say we come from Spain? SQ: I don’t -- if I tell you something, I would be lying to you because -- JJ: Okay, I don’t want you to tell me. SQ: -- I don’t really remember. JJ: I don’t want you to tell me. SQ: Really. But I know -- JJ: But what you’re saying basically is we’re all the same. SQ: We’re all the same, exactly. Because [01:32:00] a dark skinned person or -- I don’t like to say -- an African American, as we should be calling them -- we have African American in us. You understand? JJ: Oh, that’s what I’m saying. We have that in us? SQ: Yes, we do. JJ: But why? Where? Where did we get that from? SQ: Well, I mean, if you look years back, there is the Taínos. They weren’t white. 69 �JJ: No, they were Indian. SQ: Right. And an Indian is -- JJ: So, where’s the African -- SQ: -- dark skin. JJ: -- where does the African come from. SQ: I don’t -- you see -- JJ: I don’t want to give you detention. SQ: You’re putting me on the spot. I don’t really know. But I do know that we do have that in -- JJ: Since I’m putting words in your mouth, I guess we were supposed to be descended from the -- SQ: There you go. JJ: -- African. African, European, Spanish, and Taíno Indians. SQ: Right. There you go. Those are the words that I’m trying to say. JJ: Now I’m putting words in your mouth. SQ: Thank you. JJ: I’m not supposed. [01:33:00] SQ: But that’s what I was trying to get to. I couldn’t get it to -- but -- JJ: I think you got it there. You got it. You got it. SQ: Yes. JJ: So, we have a different culture then? SQ: Yeah, we do. JJ: Okay, alright. 70 �SQ: We do. I mean, we have -- I would say -- like I said, hodgepodge -- JJ: I mean, can you tell me -- SQ: -- a little bit of everybody. JJ: -- could you tell -- coming from the United States here, could you tell that there was a different culture? That’s a -- SQ: Could I tell the difference? JJ: -- loaded question. That’s a loaded question. SQ: Yeah, I could. (laughter) I could tell a difference completely because here, everybody wakes up at six o’clock in the morning. In the United States, not everybody wakes up at six o’clock in the morning. Give me a break. We get up late. I would call us a little lazier. Now, Puerto Ricans are -- get up five o’clock in the morning, six o’clock in the morning. Then you can hear the shovels. You can hear people cutting the grass. You’re like, “It’s so early in the morning.” When I came here, I was like freaked out. I was like, “What is this?” [01:34:00] I didn’t understand. I really didn’t understand. And then, food time is the same hour every day. I don’t know how it is over there. But I know our family wasn’t like that. Everything is completely different. The foods that we eat -- they would -here they would eat vianda, which -- I know my dad ate that, but we never saw it at a thing. We would see it as a delicacy over there, and here, we see it as an everyday thing. So, a lot of different stuff. A lot. JJ: Okay. What -- you would see different things like vianda. But you said we would see it -- when you say “we” are you talking about in the United States or here? [01:35:00] 71 �SQ: No, I’m saying my family. In the States -- when we were living over there, we wouldn’t see that every day. We would see regular American food. We’d have Italian food or hot dogs and hamburgers. Well, we would eat rice, yeah. But we would more eat spaghetti and other kind of food. It's not like that here. If you don’t eat rice, you’re not eating at all. You understand? You have to have rice on your plate because, if not, that’s not a meal. That’s how they see it here. If there’s no rice, no meal. They’ll say, “Oh, you just had a snack.” That’s how I see it. JJ: Over here. SQ: Over here. JJ: But before you said I saw it like if I was an American here. But then, you come over here and you see it as a Puerto Rican. SQ: Right, yeah because I was used to American food. JJ: But you were born there. But you’re living here. Whatever you -- and you say you’re Puerto Rican. So, what are you? [01:36:00] SQ: What am I now? JJ: Yeah. SQ: I still consider myself an American Puerto Rican. JJ: An American Puerto Rican? SQ: That’s how I consider myself still. JJ: That’s what I wanted to ask. SQ: Yeah. My kids -- they know that -- they’ve never gone to the States. But they say, “My mom’s an American Puerto Rican, and I’m Puerto Rican.” 72 �JJ: Which comes first? SQ: Which comes first? JJ: A loaded question. For you. I’m just trying to -- SQ: Wow. Which would come first for me? Well, I do still consider myself an American, I do because -- I don’t know -- I guess just the lifestyle over there is completely different, which I do like. And I would consider myself afterwards Puerto Rican. JJ: Okay. So, American first and then Puerto Rican? SQ: Right. That’s how I see myself. Not everybody does. But that’s how I see myself. I’m an American Puerto Rican. JJ: Okay. That’s fine. SQ: But there’s no difference because -- JJ: No, there is no difference. SQ: -- I’m still [01:37:00] Puerto Rican. Trust me. I’m not getting rid of my Puerto Rican because I’m proud of who I am. You understand? I’m proud of being a Puerto Rican, and I’m also proud of being an American Puerto Rican. Don’t get me wrong on that one. JJ: So, you said Puerto Rican twice. So, that’s good. (laughter) SQ: Well -- JJ: Either way is good. Either way is good. SQ: Right. JJ: This is an oral history. It’s about you. So, either way is good. I think you’re looking at it and saying, “Well, I don’t know what Tío wants me to say.” (laughter) 73 �SQ: No, no, no, no. That’s how I feel. I’m saying what I feel. JJ: Alright, good. Alright. That’s good. Now, we can do -- before we go into -- I want to look at some of the creative stuff that you do. But are there any other questions we should -- anything else that we should add to this before we get into that. SQ: I don’t know. You ask me. You ask me, and I’ll tell you. JJ: Okay. But I don’t -- I just want to know like what -- I’m asking you some things that I think I should ask you. But is there anything [01:38:00] that I forgot? SQ: No, not that I know of. JJ: We’re both (inaudible) as we know. SQ: Probably. JJ: Okay. Let me turn this off, and then, we’ll turn it back on. (break in audio) JJ: Okay because I’ve only got like five minutes on this camera. SQ: I made that little stool. It used to be a telephone table where you put your telephone at. I took off all the top part and I just -- JJ: Where’d you get a telephone table at? SQ: I found it in the garbage. (laughs) JJ: Oh, okay. So, you get your raw materials free. SQ: Probably do. JJ: What about these things? Did you make any of these? SQ: No, I didn’t make none of that. JJ: Okay, alright. Let me go over here. How about those things over there? 74 �SQ: No, that’s just recycled stuff. I have -- I think the Coke full of top things from the Coke, beer, whatever. You can get it. [01:40:00] I put it all in there. JJ: You just put in the vase. SQ: Right. And then, I have -- the other one that has red in it. Those are seeds. JJ: Those are seeds from -- what kind of seeds? SQ: Those are camándula. And the other one -- it’s just Dorito bags clipped up. I have all different kind of baggies in there. JJ: And you put them in the bowl there? SQ: Yeah, and I made confetti. JJ: That took a long time to cut those up though. SQ: Yeah, I put my daughter, to relax her, down so she can sit and calm herself down to cut paper. And that usually works with kids. Give them a piece of paper and scissors and they’re happy. Then this table that I have here. That used to be a dining room table. JJ: Okay, there we go. SQ: So, I just had my dad -- JJ: Okay. That was a dining room table? SQ: Yes. I had my dad cut it right in half. So, I made two tables. JJ: Okay. The other one’s on the other side over there. SQ: Right. JJ: And that’s that other -- okay. SQ: And where my [01:41:00] television is at -- that used to be a -- it would be -- JJ: The table you mean? 75 �SQ: Yeah, that table. That was something else. I don’t know really -- JJ: But I mean, where did you get that at? SQ: Well, it was at Mom’s house. And it was all old fashioned stuff. So, I just drew up the design I wanted. And I gave all the pieces to a neighbor, and he did that for me. JJ: Okay, he painted it and stuff. SQ: Yeah, I painted it. I sanded it down. JJ: Oh, you painted it and sanded it? SQ: Yeah, I painted it and I sanded it down. Okay. What’s on the top -- that used to be from a bed. Took the iron work off the bed. That used to be mine and my sister’s bed when we were living with my mom. It broke. So, I wanted still a piece of the bed. I’ve carried that with me for years. JJ: Okay. What about the wall? SQ: I did the wall. JJ: Okay. You’re talking about this wall right here? [01:42:00] SQ: Yeah, that took me a week. I took a plate with a design and I just drew it over and over. JJ: Individually? SQ: Yes. JJ: One by one? SQ: One by one. It took me a week or do that all by myself. JJ: It’s all on one -- SQ: I drew it first, and then, I painted it on. 76 �JJ: Okay. All on one side. Okay. We want to go -- okay. SQ: That table, I have -- JJ: This table? SQ: -- my jewelry that’s there with the seeds. That to make -- JJ: Oh, this jewelry right here? SQ: Yes. To make that -- this one that’s here -- to make this only, it can take me up to two weeks. By the time I look for the seeds -- I don’t at all do anything to them. I don’t paint them. I don’t do nothing. JJ: Those are seeds? SQ: These are seeds. [01:43:00] JJ: Oh, okay. SQ: It takes me weeks. So, by the time I clean them out, get the little bugs and everything in it, and I dip it in some certain varnish stuff so all the insects and the goop that’s on the inside comes all out. So, it takes a while to do. JJ: But all the different -- you got gray in there. Do you color them? SQ: No, I don’t do nothing to them. This is the way it is. JJ: Oh, those are the colors right here? SQ: Yes. The seed -- that’s the way it is. That’s it. JJ: The seeds of what tree? Do you know it? SQ: I don’t know the name. And then, this here -- this also -- this is just recycled. I made this out of old -- JJ: Milk things? SQ: Yeah. The little lids from the milk. 77 �JJ: From the lid, the milk lids? SQ: Yeah, that’s what I did. I don’t want to go into any more details because that’s my secret. (laughs) JJ: Okay. SQ: And then, here is another bracelet with bamboo, which I get the bamboo. [01:44:00] JJ: You got the bamboo from the trees here. SQ: I got the bamboo from the trees, which you’re only allowed to cut certain ones, because if you cut the wrong ones -- JJ: The city will get you? SQ: Yeah. (laughs) It’s not a pretty picture. So, they let you get the ones that are fallen down. JJ: You’ve got a bracelet on your hand. Are you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? SQ: I made this too, myself. Iron, an iron bracelet. I made it. I only make one of a kind. I never make two of the same because it’s never going to be the same. I make these also. It’s also out of metal. It’s a little hard to -- let’s see. These are one of a kind. And no bead, no nothing. Nobody else would have the same bracelet. If they do want it, it would be impossible for me to match it. Impossible. JJ: Because those are what -- rocks? SQ: These are long rods, and I [01:45:00] shape them myself. JJ: Rocks? SQ: They’re rods. They’re long rods. JJ: Rods. Okay, and you shape them. 78 �SQ: And I shape it myself. JJ: What are those little -- SQ: These are glass beads. JJ: You just bought those. SQ: Just glass beads, random glass beads. You can get plastic, whatever you want to put it in. JJ: This is an arts and crafts. SQ: Right. JJ: Okay. SQ: You see, it’s the same one except they’re all different. Like I said, there’s never two of the same. JJ: And those you put -- you made out of -- is that woodwork or what? You just got those? SQ: These? JJ: No where the candles are. SQ: No, actually these were a gift. I did end up -- JJ: Okay, that’s a nice picture on the wall too. What’s that -- is that what they call it -[flamboyant?] or whatever or no? SQ: No, that’s a [Amarilla?]. JJ: Okay. SQ: Those are also -- I think you can also find those flowers in Hawaii if I’m not mistaken. JJ: Oh, okay, okay. Alright. [01:46:00] 79 �SQ: (inaudible) JJ: Where? By the -- SQ: In the (inaudible). JJ: At the (inaudible) okay. So, this is going to be a window, right? You made that? SQ: No, I didn’t make that. JJ: One’s over by the door. SQ: The doors? JJ: The doors, yeah, because you said you were into doors. Okay. Now, get back here for that. So, that’s the door. Where did you get that door? SQ: Well, actually, that’s a lot of pieces of wood all put together. They snap on like if it was the floor, the wooden floors. And I had Dad snap them on all together. So, I sanded it down, I painted it, and I made it look like a door. So, I put all these different little doorknobs on them. They’re all [01:47:00] vintage and I found them in different places. But I’ve been asked so many times, “Are you selling those doorknobs?” And the one at the top here, it has the mosaic. Those are glass. The glass, I found on the beach. And everything else inside -- what I did was -- JJ: And that’s a door too? SQ: Yeah, it’s a door. That was my mother’s kitchen cabinet door. But since that’s good wood, I didn’t want to get rid of it. I was like, “Wow, good wood. I know I can use it for something.” So, what I did was I put little hearts and little knickknacks inside of it as a memory for my kids. Each one has something about my children. And then, the one on the top here where the mirror is at, that used to be my mother in law’s. It was blue and white. And I [01:48:00] fought over the 80 �mirror because (laughs) I wanted it. And when I finished, this is what I got. Good wood and a nice door. JJ: And let me see. What about the boat? SQ: Those are my son’s boats. JJ: Those are your son’s? He made them? SQ: No. JJ: Oh, he didn’t? Okay. SQ: He didn’t make those. Some guy made them. I don’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Those used to be my dad’s door from the house door. JJ: Which one? SQ: That wood -- those wooden things around there. JJ: So, you put -- END OF VIDEO FILE 81 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b9b3978dcb9acc9c800a8322ae2bef99.mp4 6d2a8ef1c698b4468192b832617543d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Sandra Quiles vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Sandra Quiles, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 11/21/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Quiles_Sandra Title A name given to the resource Sandra Quiles video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Quiles, Sandra Description An account of the resource Oral history of Sandra Quiles, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 11/21/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/56f730abfd5b88c3b4db10130861abcc.pdf 8e7bf31bb6968a3e1b30ddc900da1583 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: John “Oppress” Preston Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/27/2012 Biography and Description John “Oppress” Preston was a leading member of the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party (BPP). His role within the party was to set up and distribute the BPP newspaper throughout the state of Illinois. Though the BPP started in Oakland, California in 1966, it was not until April 25, 1967 that they published their first official newspaper. By 1969 the newspaper had a nationwide distribution of about 250,000 copies. In Illinois, distribution climbed up to about 80,000 copies.Mr. Preston describes what a major operation it was to set up and distribute the paper. Many times the newspaper was used as part of Political Education or “P.E.” classes. It was automatically given to new members to sell. The Black Panthers were about being out and active in the community as well as educating the People. The office was primarily used as a place to stop over to eat with others from the community or to report in; very quickly members were back on the streets selling papers and talking with the People.The BPP Newspaper was used as a tool for discussion on the many corners where it was sold. In this way it also provided visibility, as individuals would wave or drive by honking their horns. The newspaper also provided guidance to the Young Lords and to the many other organizations that were connected in one way or the other to the Black Panthers. The Young Lords began to put out their own bilingual newspaper which was then distributed in Latino areas along with several other organizations. Although it was improving, it still lacked in the sophistication of the work done by Mr. Preston. He delivered the �newspaper to the various branches and chapters in Illinois cities; they, in turn, would distribute it to their assigned geographical area. There was an accounting for each and every newspaper because the paper also provided income for the BPP chapters. The task appeared simple and mundane but �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so, after the open housing movement, what happened after that with you? Basically, you were 11 years old-JOHN PRESTON: Basically, I was 11 or 12 years old, in grammar school, going to school, growing up in Chicago. In the Black community in Chicago. And... JJ: So what was that like? I mean, with the growing up in Chicago, that was -- JP: Well, growing up poor in Chicago was growing up poor in Chicago. But you didn’t realize you were poor, you know? You had jobs, there was ways to go out and go to school and earn money, and contribute, because -- JJ: What kind of jobs? I mean, what kind of... JP: We all had paper routes, and milk routes, and jobs of that sort. There were a myriad of jobs that you could do, deliver groceries, working in the neighborhood grocery stores, [00:01:00] to earn money, working after school to earn money. I went to Catholic school, I went to Our Lady of Sorrows Catholic School on the west side. I worked in the lunchroom, they helped pay my tuition to attend. My mom paid my tuition, my mom was a single mother. She -- JJ: She was a single mother? How many siblings? JP: And I had five other siblings, and I was next to the youngest of six kids. So everybody had to do their fair share. You know. I grew up in public housing during this time. JJ: Where was this at? 1 �JP: This was Rockwell Gardens, located on the west side of Chicago, so. And my mom grew up, and we were able to live. So we were poor, we didn’t have a lot of things that we should’ve had, but we were happy. We were a happy family, so. So that’s how that went. [00:02:00] So -- JJ: So you were happy, then mentioned you played a lot, I mean, what kinda games did you play? JP: Well, I played organized football at school, and played games, and rec league games, and rode my bike around the neighborhood, and just did the normal things that kids at that time did, you know. Played games, hide and go seek, whatever. So yeah, so it was that. But it was also a very, very volatile time, socially. And breaking down the barriers of discrimination. And it was coming to the height of the Vietnam War. So there were a lot of things that socially, I was exposed to. And you could -- there was a lot of racial tension, as well. JJ: In the west side, or...? JP: Yeah. All over the city. Chicago [00:03:00] was -- and you could feel the tension, you could -- you knew the tension was there, in the city at that time. There were certain neighborhoods -- JJ: You’re talking about in the ’60s? JP: In the ’60s, that’s right. JJ: In the early ’60s. And you were growing up -- JP: In the ’60s, yeah, in the ’60s, all the way in... And in some instances, the ’70s. Okay, but definitely in the ’60s, there were certain -- JJ: And you said certain neighborhoods [where you?] -- 2 �JP: In certain areas, certain neighborhoods, Blacks could not go. JJ: Like, what area? JP: South, southwest, Gage Park, Marquette Park, Cicero, which is an adjoining suburb of Chicago. Blacks were not allowed there, I can remember, 1965 or ’66, a Black man was out in Cicero looking for a job and got beat to death with a baseball bat. By three teenagers. In Cicero. That’s all he was doing, was looking for work. JJ: Was this not a gang thing, or...? JP: It was not a gang thing, it was a [00:04:00] racial thing. It was a racial thing. JJ: What’s the difference? I mean, I don’t... JP: Of course. What the difference is, if there’s a gang, you know, you’re fighting for turf, people are representing, and then there’s a gang member representing. When it was a racial thing, it’s just because of the color of your skin, that someone attacked you of the opposite race. And this is the climate that existed. It was clearly a Black-white divide in the city of Chicago at that time. All right? You -- JJ: There was a gang (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: No, it was not a gang that did it. It was three white youths, that lived in Cicero, that saw this Black man looking for a job, and they beat him to death with a baseball bat. Simple. (laughs) JJ: Very simple, it was more of a (inaudible). But were white gangs doing the same thing, or [00:05:00] no? At that time? 3 �JP: White people were doing the same things. Now, they might’ve been white vigilante groups that perpetuated it at that time, yes. I mean, you had, you know, the Nazis in Gage Park, and you had other white groups, as well as Klan members, and you had white motorcycle clubs and things like that, and whose primary interest was that they were primarily white gangs representing white representation, or white people that formed other type of groups. But it was all done along the lines of race, you had certain areas Blacks could not go, certain clubs, certain organizations Blacks could not be members of, simply because you were Black. Okay? So, a lot of those barriers existed at that time. For Blacks and for other people of color. And it was the norm. [00:06:00] It was the norm. JJ: Why do you think it was the norm at that time? And what was the city like? Was it diverse, or...? JP: No, the city -- well, the city has always... You’ve always had your people that were liberal-minded enough to fight against the racism. And Chicago has always been a diverse city, but it’s also been a very segregated city. You know. Where you could go in one area in Chicago and it was all white, you could go in another area where it was all Latino, you could go in another area where it was a allBlack concentration, and people knew it. And that’s how people navigated the waters in the city of Chicago at that time. And it was, moreso now. That’s not to say that even in 2012, that discrimination doesn’t exist in Chicago, which it still does. But it was more prevalent, [00:07:00] it was much more pervasive, and it was tolerated and accepted. And you did have some liberal parts to the city, such as, like, Lincoln Park, Old Town, these areas where you had a diverse 4 �cross-section of people there. Or you had other melting pots during that time, like Uptown, where you had your poor whites, your poor Native Americans, your poor Latinos, and also Blacks. So you had certain areas of the city that were considered melting pots, and people immigrated from other countries into those areas of the city. But they were still polarized nonetheless. So the polarization still existed. Moreso in Chicago, where you could actually see that, in terms of police brutality that existed, [00:08:00] it was at a very, very high climate at that time. And it was accepted as the norm. JJ: Well, why was it more at a high climate at that time than today? JP: Well, that was just the climate of the country. I mean, the climate of the whole country was that we were a country that there was racial discrimination that existed throughout the whole country. And Chicago was just one aspect of -- JJ: The police in Chicago, was that racial? Or was that just... JP: It was moreso racial, of course it was. JJ: So that means that there were not enough African American police, and...? JP: There was very few African American police. JJ: And that, in the ’60s? JP: Yes. Very few African American police, yes, you did have some African American policemen, you’ve always had African American police. And they were always concentrated to patrol African American communities, and they were used there as enforcers, rather than protectors, of the community. [00:09:00] To enforce and serve the interests of the white businessman and the white establishment. Those were your Black policemen. At that time, they were 5 �considered Uncle Toms. So you had -- that was the Uncle Tom era of racism, of the people, where, if they were Black, they had a agenda to serve a certain purpose. At that time. JJ: Okay. So you’re saying Uncle Tom meant that they were not serving the interests of the... JP: Of their community. JJ: The Black community, their community. JP: Right. JJ: Or Latino community (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: (inaudible) Right. I mean, you know, Native Americans could all call them apples. (laughs) You know. We called them Oreo cookies, Uncle Toms, or whatever. So that is what the climate of the city was at that time, and it’s taken on a different dynamic today. But... JJ: [00:10:00] Now, there were some gangs on the west side, though, right? At that time, or... JP: There’ve always been gangs. JJ: Wasn’t there the Vice Lords, or something (inaudible) JP: They’re... JJ: How did that play in-- ’Cause, I mean, I know you f-- If it was a segregated area, I know you felt more comfortable if you’re in the west side, in your community. But then you have to deal with other situations, too. 6 �JP: Well, within the dynamic of the Black community, yes, you’ve always had gangs. Gangs have existed as far back as we can remember. There was an established order. Gangs were organized, at first, to protect communities. JJ: To the west side, what gangs were in the west side? JP: At that time, you had... You had the Vice Lords, Egyptian Cobras, Roman Saints... [00:11:00] In the Latino areas, you had the Harrison Gents. (laughs) So, those are the few that come to mind immediately. JJ: Okay. And, were they problematic in the community, or they were just part of life, or I mean, how (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Well, they were problematic, you know, but gangs fought against gangs, and if you chose to be in a gang, it was by choice and not by force. You know. Gangs didn’t go out and openly recruit you, when you were a certain age, to become a part of this gang, that you had to be a part of this gang. There weren’t the barriers that existed, today, as we know it, that, if you are a part of this gang, you can’t go in this area of the Black community, or you can’t go in that area of the Black community. I never experienced that as a youth growing up. In Chicago. JJ: But it existed? But it existed. JP: It existed. [00:12:00] Yes, you did have gangs and you did have crime. But (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: [But?], I mean, today, there’s a recruitment. At that time, they didn’t have that? JP: Well, sometimes they did. They had recruitment, sometimes it’s not as voluntary, so it’s up to the individual, if he really wants to be a part of the gang. 7 �JJ: Okay. So, why did you not become part of the gang, I mean, was it not that prevalent in the west side? JP: No, I didn’t see a need to be a part of a gang. JJ: Okay, but why? Why? JP: Why? Because I didn’t see a need to be a part of any type of gang that had a certain set of values that weren’t consistent with mine, because I didn’t see a need to do that. A lot of the gang members were, people that were so-called gang members, were my neighbors. I knew them. I grew up with them. [00:13:00] So, it wasn’t that I had to be a part of that. I had friends, and I had friends that chose to be in gangs, and that was their choice. I didn’t see it that way, so I didn’t s-- I was never -- JJ: So, what were your set of values? I mean, what were some of the things -- JP: Well, some of the things that I wanted to do, I saw how my mother was subjected to racism. And discrimination. JJ: What do you mean? JP: A Black woman on a job, she worked for the United States government at that time. JJ: What did she do? JP: She was a stenographer. And she worked at a government installation, and she was very, very much discriminated against. One, because she was a woman, and -- well, one, because she was Black, two, because she was a woman. [00:14:00] And even though she was qualified to do a better job, she was always overlooked for promotions by her white counterparts that had less skills and less 8 �abilities, but yet got the better-paying jobs. And this is something that I noticed early on, you know. I noticed that the word, as they call it now, the N-word, but, clearly spoken, the word, “nigga,” was thrown around. We still had the problems of people sitting at the back of the bus, and you didn’t have to sit at the back of the bus, but of course, there was still some racism involved in, when you did get on the bus. You know? So all of those things, all of those factors, you were able to see, you were able to feel. So those were the things that [00:15:00] I had a passion to change. You know. JJ: So when you -- you’re saying that when you got on the bus, there was still some racism -- JP: Well, you -- JJ: -- but it wasn’t like in the South, where they said, “You -- JP: Exactly. JJ: -- have to sit in the back,” you just -- JP: Right. JJ: -- kind of felt it, or...? JP: Yes. You get it, you could always feel a certain, you know, degree of racism. You could always feel -- basically, racism was prevalent, it was overtly prevalent in all of the institutions that existed in America at that time. JJ: But specifically the west side of Chicago... JP: Not just the west side of Chicago. West side of Chicago was a microcosm of what existed throughout the whole United States, you know. JJ: Okay, okay, so, your mother was being discriminated. 9 �JP: You felt the discrimination (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: And you felt anger towards that, or? JP: I felt resentment towards that -- JJ: Resentment? JP: Yes I did, yes. And I felt a need to [00:16:00] change that. To want to change that, to fight against that. And so, you know, knowing about -- hearing about the Civil Rights Movement, knowing about the atrocities that were being inflicted against Black people, assassinations on our leaders, Medgar Evers... JJ: Were you hearing that in the news, or was that being taught in the schools, too? JP: It was on the news, but it was also discussed in the school that I attended. You know. JJ: What school was that? JP: Our Lady of Sorrows. JJ: Our Lady of Sorrows. JP: Yes, grammar school. So, all those things, we were able to discuss. So there were a lot of different factors [00:17:00] there, to how that was received, because we were taught that it was wrong, and that we had a responsibility to go out and do something about it. JJ: Was Father Clements from Our Lady of Sorrows? JP: No, he wasn’t. JJ: Oh, no he wasn’t, okay. JP: No, Father Clements was from Holy Angels. JJ: Holy Angels, okay, that’s correct. 10 �JP: On the south side. JJ: That’s correct, that’s correct. That’s right. JP: But there were priests, and nuns at the school at that time, that were actively involved in the movements as well. To fight against discrimination and racism. And so, because of that, I felt a need to support that as well. So... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: So, in being a part of that school at that time, we were taught to stand up for what you [00:18:00] believed in. And that’s what we did. That’s what I did. JJ: Okay, so actually, so, Our Lady of Sorrows was like an activist school during that time? During -- JP: Well, it was not -- I wouldn’t call it an activist school, I would say it was a progressive school. But not an activist school, it was progressive. It taught us how to think and not what to think. And that we were able to reason and infer our own conclusions based on information that we received. And we had these discussions. JJ: Okay. So then, what grade was that, what grade were you in? JP: Seventh, eighth grade. JJ: Seventh and eighth grade? JP: Yeah. JJ: So now you’re going into high school, or...? JP: Yeah, I went to Providence St. Mel High School. JJ: Providence St. Mel, where is that located? JP: It’s located at Central Park and Monroe in the west side of Chicago. 11 �JJ: (inaudible) JP: So I attended Providence St. Mel High School. I went there from [00:19:00] 1968 to 1971. (inaudible) JJ: So the west side then was a stable neighborhood, it didn’t really move that much, right? Am I correct, or...? JP: How do you mean when you say stable? JJ: Well, I mean it didn’t move. Like, say, Lincoln Park was changing from Polish, Italian, and German, to Puerto Rican. JP: Well, I wouldn’t say that, because, coming up as a kid, when we first moved into our neighborhood, there were whites there. And Latinos, and Puerto Ricans. And that was in 1959 and 1960. By 1969, all those people were gone. JJ: Actually, Madison was -- that didn’t have a Puerto Rican area, around Madison? JP: Around California, around Madison... JJ: Oh yeah, there was a Puerto Rican (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: And then [00:20:00] around Harrison and Western, around Roosevelt, and you -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: And you had Italians. So you saw the -- yeah, so the neighborhoods were changing at that time. But I can remember -- JJ: Did that create any friction at all, or...? JP: Well, that was -- I mean, everybody coexist. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: But, you know, you went to school with pe-- I know I went to school with whites, I went to school with Latinos, I went to school with Blacks, you know. But it 12 �became predominantly Black as time went on. Of course, when I came there in 1960, in first grade, there were more whites, but then, by 1967 or ’68 there were still whites there, but then, with the assassination of Dr. King, then you really saw the white exodus go, but at first it was gradual. And so, yeah, so the neighborhood was changing, and the whole dynamic of the neighborhood was changing. JJ: It was a natural change, not a [00:21:00] pushed change. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) urban renewal or something (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Well, yes, urban renewal was prevalent. They were pushing urban renewal. But, at that time, you had the white flight to the suburbs. JJ: What do you mean? Can you describe that? JP: Why the white flight exists, it is that they -- with the racial barriers breaking down, where now, Black people can come and rent here. You know. There was a time where, if you wanted to go rent downtown or in the north shore, Lincoln Park, something like that, there were certain buildings that you couldn’t rent, that they would give you some excuse on why you couldn’t rent the apartment if you were Black. You know? Those barriers were gradually broken down, through laws, and mandates, and changes, and city ordinances. From that, you had the white people that said, “Well, I’m not gonna live next to Black people, [00:22:00] I’m not gonna live next to these people.” So you had the white flight to the suburbs. And then therefore, houses were so (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: And what year was this? 13 �JP: This was all during the ’60s. All this was done in the ’60s. All this was done in the ’60s. JJ: The white flight to the suburbs, and... JP: Yeah, so you had your white flight to the suburbs, and you had those things that existed at that time. And it was pretty interesting, I would say. JJ: So what do we have to do, then? I mean, now we have -- Lincoln Park is mostly white, right? Is it? JP: Yeah, there was always a changing urban dynamic. And so, as, one situation, where one area became developed, and it became open to a certain class of people that could afford to move [00:23:00] there, then of course other areas were abandoned. And then of course developers would come in, and redevelop that land, and make it appealing to people of another economic level. Well, today it’s still the same process. It’s just not called racism, but there are economic development. You call them poor, moderate-income housing, to where developers come in and they create these high-rises, with very, very high rents, that only certain income levels can afford to move in there. And therefore, the people that were living there, you know, your poor working-class people, can’t afford that area, and so they’re forced out. So they’re forced into areas. So you have the same dynamic today, to where most people, [00:24:00] even within the subsidized housing movement, high-rises have been completely -- communities have been completely displaced. Such as Robert Taylor Homes, Stateway Gardens, Cabrini-Green. All these became communities that existed for 30, 40, 50 years. 14 �JJ: So these communities existed 30, 40, 50 years, and they no longer exist? JP: They no longer exist. So these people were displaced. So where were they displaced to? They were displaced to the suburbs. So those people that -- those whites that moved out of suburbs are now moving back into the city, into these elegant high-rise apartments, now, into all these new developments. So it’s been made attractive for them to come back into the city, and now those Blacks that have been displaced have moved to the suburbs. And that’s what’s going on today. JJ: And why was this -- I mean, you had aldermen that were Black in the city [00:25:00] council, Black aldermen. JP: Yes. JJ: You had Latino aldermen, also. JP: Yes. JJ: And progressive aldermen. I mean, how is this able to happen, that...? JP: How was it able to happen, it was... JJ: Yeah, (inaudible) displace complete neighborhoods. JP: It was able to happen -- the first mayor Daley, Richard J. Daley, called it urban renewal. Okay? Richard M. Daley called it urban development. (laughs) Or regentrification. (laughs) So, when you deal with re-gentrification, versus urban renewal of the ’60s, it’s the same thing. And so, therefore, and now they mask it with mixed-income communities. So you have people that have condos here, and you have low-income [00:26:00] subsidized housing there, and then you also have affordable housing right there, so everybody can live together under the 15 �guise of equality. But it’s still the same thing. All right? Because those subsidized units, in a new development, eventually will be phased out. You know? So, within the process of what goes on. So those subsidized units, eventually, that unit where those subsidized families are, which they are, of course, a minority, for one reason or another will be phased out, and become a moderate or a high-income community. At some point. JJ: So what you’re saying is that even the subsidized units, today, that were existing, even they were replaced? JP: Yes. JJ: So the few subsidized units that they did put there, [00:27:00] for media or whatever (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Eventually will be gone. JJ: Will be gone. JP: Yes. Eventually will be gone. So it’s basically a cosmetic, it’s a Band-Aid, a cosmetic fix, or a solution. So on the surface it looks good, that there is the equality, but eventually -- and even in communities on the west side, in Uptown, you have that problem, because there were a lot of community area-- high-rises in Uptown that were supposed to be for subsidized housing, and they have been phased out into so-called cooperatives. Or either new developments have come in, and all those units are market-value rent. So the process is on, to phase out and move these people out of those areas, [00:28:00] where you have lowincome, moderate-income housing, and they really want to move the working poor out of those areas in order for the developers to come in and bring in 16 �market-value rates, and to build new communities. To accommodate those people that are moving from the suburbs back into the city. So, there’s a theory, that, probably, in the next 15 years, if you’re not at an income level of 50 to 60,000 dollars, you won’t be able to live in the city of Chicago. You know. Not sustain yourself in the city of Chicago. I mean, you know, and then that’s just reality, that’s just life, and that was the ground rule that, I feel, that Richard M. Daley laid down when he left office. If you’re gonna live in Chicago, it’s gonna cost you money. JJ: [00:29:00] Okay, so this came not only with Richard M. Daley, but it came with Richard J. Daley -- JP: As well. JJ: -- his father. JP: Yes. JJ: So, do you think this was a long-ranged plan, or... (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Well, no, I think... I believe that Richard M. Daley’s agenda was consistent with his father’s agenda. And he carried out the vision of his father, he just did it a different kind of way. And that he appeased and catered to big business. JJ: But he was -- wasn’t he able to get some of the progressive people to support him for a while? JP: Well, he... JJ: (inaudible) 17 �JP: I mean, he hasn’t -- it seems as if he had the progressive support, but what it in fact came to is that his power base grew enough, to where that they had to be [00:30:00] co-opted into his agenda in order for them to get whatever else that they needed to get passed. JJ: Can you explain what you mean (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: I’m saying that it became tit-for-tat, or, you know, if we want this over here, then you gotta vote for this over here. You know. And that’s the only way you’re gonna get that. And a lot of things, it was arm-twisting politics -- JJ: And can you give an example? JP: Well, let’s see... Let’s take Millennium Park, for instance. JJ: Downtown, right? JP: That downtown, millions of dollars spent on a park. Pritzker Pavilion, all of this. Basically caters to the rich. Okay? In order to get that passed, you needed city [00:31:00] council approval. In some cases, it was passed unanimously. And in order for that to be passed, and it was, but that passed, in order for this alderman in this Black ward to get funding for programs or other things, that he had to vote on this. You know. So, that’s what it was. So, basically the city council became a rubber stamp for Daley. And they didn’t -- even in the days when Harold Washington, a lot of the aldermen that were elected and were [inaudible] from Harold Washington wound up having to compromise, and co-op, in order to get other things done in terms of development, affordable housing, and that. And they had to really, really fight tooth and nail in order to get it [00:32:00] done. You know? Like, you would take -- in Uptown, they had the Wilson Yards 18 �development. The Wilson Yards took 10 years to get passed. And it dealt with a senior high-rise and a low and moderate-income housing. It was 150 units of low and moderate-income housing, 200 units of senior housing. But at the same time, in order for that to go over, they had to agree to put a Target there. And Target served for economic development. But also, a Target is a big box store that has no health insurance for its employees, pay them -- they don’t give ’em a 40-hour week, they don’t give ’em, and they pay them 50, 60 cent over minimum wage. So you have the contradiction that existed. So, [00:33:00] yes, in order for you to get this, you have to vote for that, in the guise of economic development. So then you still have the exploitation that exists, with Target. These people have no health benefits, they have no health insurance. They don’t even get a full 40-hour week, and yet they’re paid 50 cent, 60 cent above minimum wage. JJ: So these companies came in, and they were working with the city... JP: Exactly. JJ: But the city’s plan was what? They wanted to up the blighted areas, though, right? JP: Well, that’s -- JJ: That was, in other words, their plan, their agenda. JP: Well, the city had their plans, and they had the -- and they said that they’re doing this under the guise of cleaning up the blighted areas, and really what they’re doing is moving people out, in order to accommodate people of a certain income level. So, all right, so we’ll say, “Okay, this can stay. There’s 200 uni--” 19 �JJ: So what did the city [00:34:00] get out of that? I mean, what -- JP: Well, the city, what the city gets is a level of people that are coming into the city, that, basically, if you’re not making 50 or 60,000 dollars then you’re not gonna be able to live there, and that’s what they’re developing. Okay? So the city is forcing people out (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) these upper-income people. JP: And getting the upper-income people. JJ: (inaudible) And then, by the same token, they’re raising the tax base, or something. JP: Exactly, the tax base. JJ: You gotta answer the phone? JP: No, go ahead, I just -- it’s six o’clock, I gotta get (inaudible) JJ: Oh, is it 6:00? Okay. JP: Yeah, it’s 6:00. JJ: Okay, well let’s get to -- how did you get involved with the Black Panther Party? JP: I got involved with the Black Panther Party -- ironically, I lived in Rockwell Gardens, like I said, and that was in -- [00:35:00] my family moved in Rockwell Gardens in, like, 1964. 1968, Martin Luther King was assassinated in Memphis. That had a great effect on me, had a great effect on my life. And... JJ: You mean personally, you felt -- JP: Personally, personally. To me. JJ: How did you feel? I mean, can you describe? 20 �JP: Well, I felt a great loss, and I felt something had to be done about that. And I knew that Martin Luther King was murdered because he was fighting for what was right. Okay? He was fighting for the rights of people all over the country. And for him to be assassinated the way he was assassinated and murdered, something had to be done. So, I felt a great loss at that age. I had heard about the Black Panther Party, for self-defense out in Oakland, California, in 1967. [00:36:00] ’68. And, it appealed to me, because Stokely Carmichael appealed to me. Malcolm X appealed to me. But I -- JJ: These were pretty militant people (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: They were outspoken. I wouldn’t say that they were militant, because they practiced self-defense. They had a line of demarcation. So these were men that stood up for their rights. The difference between them and Dr. King was, was that Dr. King preached nonviolence, and that the road to social justice was through nonviolence. Malcolm and Stokely and other leaders felt that the road to self-determination and Black liberation was through [00:37:00] fighting for it, and fighting for your rights, the same way this country was built. The same (laughs) way. So we have to look at that, so there’s a whole ’nother dichotomy that exists within that. And, so I was pretty much shaken by that. And in November 1968, there were -- in 1968, you had the Democratic National Convention here in Chicago, and you saw people getting beat, and you saw a lot of things going on right on TV in front of your eyes. And so you saw police brutality, you saw the rac-- you saw the fascism that existed that Mayor Daley perpetuated. Mayor 21 �Daley also, when Dr. King was murdered, put out the shoot-to-kill order. To rioters. JJ: What was that about? What was that? JP: Pardon me? JJ: What was the shoot-to-kill order? JP: [00:38:00] The shoot-to-kill order was that, Daley said, “Shoot to kill anybody that was seen looting the stores,” because when Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated, riots broke out all over the country. And in Chicago as well. So you had -- JJ: On the west side? JP: On the west side, on the south side. JJ: On the south side. JP: On the west end, south sides of the city. JJ: (inaudible) in Humboldt Park also. JP: And Humboldt Park, right. So you saw this racism, you saw these things that occurred. And Daley put out a shoot-to-kill order for looters. Shoot to kill ’em. So he put property over life. You know? Because he knew who was out there doing the looting and why they were doing the looting. That’s when he called in the national guards. So you saw all of this. You saw all of this in the city before ya eyes. You know. So I’m a thirteen-year-old kid at that time, I’m seeing this. By the fall of [00:39:00] 1968 -- Martin Luther King was murdered in April 1968. By November, and then in the summer, the Democratic National Convention, Bobby Kennedy was murdered. You had the Democratic National Convention 22 �that was held here in Chicago. You saw what Daley did with that. And later on, the Black Panther Party opened up an office, less than a half a mile from my house. And I went into the office one time, and I heard some speakers, and got some political information, and I was compelled to become a member. And subsequently, I did become a member, in November 1968. I was a freshman in high school, and I joined the Black Panther Party at that time. JJ: And, what was your job? I mean (inaudible) JP: Well, initially, [00:40:00] at that time you had to go through training and political orientation. And that’s what I did, and then -- JJ: What kind of training, what do you mean? JP: Well, you had to go through political education classes, political orientation classes. You had to learn the party’s principles, you had to learn the party’s ideology, you had to learn the party’s doctrine. You had to learn the party’s philosophy. We had a 10-point program and a platforming program, which everybody had to learn. We had 26 rules, 3 main rules of discipline. 8 points of attention. All these things that you learn during your six weeks of political orientation, till you become an active member of the party. So, when I -- JJ: Was it six weeks, once a week, or six weeks every day, or...? JP: It was six weeks, three times a week. JJ: Three times a week. JP: Yeah. But during that time, you would go out and sell papers. You would go out in [00:41:00] your particular area where you lived at, and talk with people in your community, talk with your peers about the Black Panther Party, about the Black 23 �Liberation Movement, and why people should become active in that. We also started breakfast for children programs, we were required to be at the breakfast for children program to serve kids. And so these are the programs that, as becoming a member of the Black Panther Party, that we implemented, that were implemented. As a matter of fact, right here where we’re sitting now, was our first breakfast for children program. One of our first breakfast for children programs. JJ: What street are we on? JP: We on Pulaski Road, 15th and Pulaski Road. And this is called the Better Boys Foundation. And we had one of our first breakfast for children programs right here, at this location. In 1969. So, [00:42:00] my responsibility at that time, I also worked with the Ministry of Health in doing outreach at that time, going out, doing advocacy and health outreach in the community. And also, making people aware of the health issues, sickle cell anemia, things of that sort. So we opened up a medical clinic as well. Later on, I worked in the Ministry of Information and I was assigned to the circulation and distribution of the party’s [inaudible?], which was the Black Panther Black Community News Service, and I became the Illinois chapter circulation manager for that paper. And my job was to go out and find new venues for our paper, to circulate our paper throughout the country, and that’s what I wound up doing. As well as other literature and books that we -- JJ: So, how did you do that? [00:43:00] What was the process? JP: Well, the process of doing that was going out on a daily basis, of calling on stores and locations and businesses, Black businesses at that time, and asking them to 24 �take our paper, to sell our paper in their stores. And, most everybody did it. Sold the papers in the stores. So we had a circulation in Chicago of 150,000, 250,000 papers per week. That was our circulation. Also, later on I became responsible for the printing of our newspaper here, and distributing the paper throughout the country to the other chapters and branches. So I did that from 1970, after the murder of Fred Hampton, until 1975. JJ: [00:44:00] What happened after the murder of Fred Hampton, in terms of the party here in Illinois? JP: In terms of...? JJ: In terms of work, and... (inaudible)? JP: No, the work didn’t stop. The work, as a matter of fact, the work became much more intense. For us to go out and do the work. It gave us a lot of support, because people realized that Fred Hampton and Mark Clark were definitely murdered. We also had over 12 party members in the city of Chicago murdered. Not just Fred Hampton and Mark Clark. And we had over 50 party members throughout the country murdered. I thi-- (gap in audio) [sixty?] two, all total, by the end of the -- JJ: But here in Chicago, you had other -- JP: Yes. JJ: -- party members that were murdered? JP: Yes. Yes, we did. JJ: [00:45:00] And these are cold cases, they haven’t been solved? 25 �JP: Well, no, they were murdered by the police. What is there to solve? (laughs) They were murdered by the police. JJ: Okay. And people knew that. Okay. JP: Yes. And people knew that, yes. So we had confrontations with the police at that time, and then it was ongoing. After -- JJ: Were these in raids, in police raids, or? JP: They were in police raids, they were in police shootouts, in neighborhoods that our members worked in, and things of that sort. So a lot of times they were, I would say they were unprovoked attacks by the police, or certain party members were targeted for work they were doing in the community. And they were targeted by those police in those precincts, or in those districts. All right? We were definitely monitored very heavily by J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI, and they created gang intelligence units and [00:46:00] special units, in order to monitor us. JJ: So the gang intelligence unit was also monitoring (inaudible) JP: Yeah. JJ: I mean, they were monitoring the Young Lords. JP: Yes. The gang intelligence unit monitored us, as well as the city’s task force at that time, they called them the task force. JJ: Mm-hmm. The Red Squad. JP: Well, the Red Squad was something else. The Red Squad was specifically there. All right, but the gang intelligence unit -- but the Red Squad was there, 26 �basically targeted to watch what they call radical groups. And that’s what that (inaudible) JJ: So the task force was a different group, too. JP: Yes. The task for-- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Yes. The task force was a different group. The task force moreso served as the enforcers. When the Red Squad said, “Yeah, we need to do that,” then they went in and did what they had to do. So that’s what that was. JJ: Okay. Plus the regular police... JP: Plus the regular police, yeah. JJ: And what about the precinct workers? Did they spread any... In our community, were spreading rumor [00:47:00] campaigns, and... JP: Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, we had all of that. We had many, many incidents of things that would [encourage?] people. We had incidents where they put young kids up to say they were molested (laughs) by party members and things like that. ’Course, it never flew. But they, you know, they would do things like that. They would go in there and say that we might be holding a fugitive in the office, and they wanted to come in and search, and all these things. People would get just picked up and held by the police, not allowed to make a phone call, and being in police custody. And with no charges being filed against them. So we suffered a lot of harassment. And that harassment somewhat intensified -- well, it was always at a high climate, if you [00:48:00] remember the Black Panther Party. But it certainly was intensified, but we still pushed on, and we implemented more 27 �programs. We had our medical center, our food giveaways. We [still kept?] our breakfast programs a lot. So in terms of the changes, we became a stronger and wiser organization of people. JJ: Anything that you wanted to finish up the interview? That you want to -- that we forgot to talk about? JP: Well, they, you know, there’s a lot that you... JJ: Missed. JP: Can’t... JJ: (laughs) JP: It’s sort of hard to cover everything, but I would like to say that, one thing that we did in 1969, and I think is very, very prevalent to the interview and who’s conducting this interview, is that the Illinois chapter of the Black Panther Party [00:49:00] was the first organization to initiate and implement the Rainbow Coalition. Contrary to what other people think. Okay? And the Rainbow Coalition consisted of the Black Panther Party, the Young Lords Organization, and the Young Patriots Organization. We knew that this society had racism in society, we know that racism is a very, very negative element that exists within this society. As a matter of fact, it’s a birth defect of America. Racism. And so we fight with that birth defect on a daily basis. And we said that what we were going to do, the Black Panther Party being a political organization, the Young Lords Organization, the YLO being a political organization, as well as the Young Patriots. These were poor Blacks, [00:50:00] poor Latinos, and poor whites, who band together to say that we don’t fight racism with racism, that we fight racism 28 �with solidarity. That we realized, in the Black Panther Party, through our education, that racism is a birth defect and a byproduct of the social ills of the society in which we live. And then, the same problems that the Latinos had, Blacks had. The same problems that the Blacks and Latinos had, poor Appalachian whites had, and poor whites had. And that the way that we solved those problems is that we fight together and we unify together to expose the contradiction within society to eradicate the problem. And that’s what was the purpose of the Rainbow Coalition. And that’s what we did. (video cuts) JJ: Give me your name, and when you were born, and then, where you were born. JP: Okay. My name is John Preston. I was born [00:51:00] in May 1954. I was born in Roanoke, Virginia. My family migrated to Chicago when I was four years old. We migrated to the west side of Chicago. And that’s where I grew up at. And I attended parochial schools, here in the city, and parochial grammar schools and high schools. And at that time, in 1968, or, prior to 1968, ’65, ’66, I was involved in the open housing movement as a young kid with my parents and other young adults in the community. With the open housing movement. JJ: What was that? I mean, what -- and who was the group that was leading that? JP: That was the [end-slum?] movement that was led by Dr. Martin Luther King. Where he came to Chicago fighting for open [00:52:00] housing. And so I was involved in picketing slum landlords at that time, and we had the big march on city hall that was organized by SCLC, and... JJ: What year was this? JP: That was in 1966. 29 �JJ: ’66?? JP: Yeah, 1966. And that was the big open housing march on Chicago. Where we had the big rally in Soldiers Field, Martin Luther King spoke, Al Raby spoke, it was a conglomerate of a whole lot of other organizations that spoke. So that was my introduction to the movement, or the Civil Rights Movement. JJ: You mentioned your father was involved with this, or? JP: No, my father wasn’t involved. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: No, my parents or other adults in my family were involved. No, my father wasn’t involved. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Oh, he wasn’t involved. Okay. JP: No. [00:53:00] But other adults, and other people in the community that were concerned with the open housing movement at that time, and the [end-slums?] movement, that we picketed a lot of realtors that were renting cut-up apartments to people, where people lived in one-room apartments and had to share the kitchen and they were paying high prices in rent. Housing was horrendous. There were rat-infested, roach-infested places, cold water flats, people had to pay for their own heat through kerosene heaters and things of that sort. So they were fire traps, things like that. There was one particular real estate company that was called [Condor and Costellos?], who SCLC specifically targeted, and we were successful in them making concessions. And we closed down a [00:54:00] lot of those buildings. JJ: So, they were targeted. Why were they targeted? 30 �JP: They were targeted because they were basically slum landlords. They were charging high rents for substandard housing. So, that was one of the things that was very, very important. So we picketed this real estate company. We picketed them, and we were successful in them making concessions, making improvements. And also coming up with suitable rents. JJ: Do you recall where they were located (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: They were located at Jackson and Sacramento. JJ: Jackson and Sacramento? JP: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So, these cut-up apartments... JP: Which was common practice. JJ: It was common prac-- JP: Yeah. JJ: Yeah, because I recall in the downtown area, they were cutting up hotels. Hotel rooms, also. But this was -- but these cut-up apartments were more on the west side --? JP: Well, these cut-up apartments were all over. They were all over [00:55:00] everywhere, where a landlord, mostly white at that time, you had white, Jewish landlords that would rent tenements, you had three-room apartments. You had one family, a family of five to six living in a one-room apartment that was a cut-up apartment, that was an apartment that was, one time, a three-bedroom apartment. All right? And they would cut it up, and put three families in a threebedroom apartment. And people would have to share the bedroom as their 31 �house, and then go out and share the kitchen, and the bathroom, and the living room. There was a common area. JJ: How would they share the bathroom? Would they divide it, or...? JP: No, I mean, everybody that lived there had to share one bathroom. So it wasn’t divided, it was -- JJ: So it was, like, in the hallway or something? JP: Yeah, it was in the hallway. It was a bathroom that was for the common apartment. [00:56:00] You know. So you had this, this was common practice all over the Black community at that time. During the time that I grew up, in the early ’60s. I came to Chicago in 1959. So what I saw then was very common. Where you could go in, just about, in any apartment building, and see where these apartments were broken up from apartment. It could be a two-flat building and they might have taken it, and broken it in, and made it to where five people could stay there. JJ: Okay. And what was the... When you came in 1959, you lived -- went right to the west side, you said? JP: Yeah, we lived on the west side, we lived -- JJ: Were there other communities that this group -- the housing program was working at, or? JP: It was -- the open housing movement was sponsored by SCLC, Dr. Martin Luther King, [00:57:00] so it was basically city-wide. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Yeah, it was -- Chicago was basically targeted for that, because -- 32 �JJ: Was this the same time that he marched in the suburbs, or no? JP: Exactly. During the same time he marched in Cicero. Exactly, where he was in and he marched in -- they marched in Marquette Park, in Gage Park, the same thing. To break down those racial barriers for open housing. Yeah. It was during that time. JJ: And how old were you then? I mean, at that time? JP: At that time I was 11, 12 years old. JJ: Okay. So, I mean, how, if you’re 11 or 12 years old, how -- hold on. (video cuts) Okay, testing. Okay. Just kind of testing the (inaudible) [go up to the next?] -- all right. (pause) [00:58:00] Okay, hold on one se-- I mean, it’s recording. JP: Yeah. JJ: So, okay. All right. So where were we, we were on the -- JP: You were asking me, how was that the time that I became introduced to picketing the [end-slums?] movement, and I was -- END OF VIDEO FILE 33 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/85a606422b3e3b6d5addb43ad27cd514.mp4 df320bfca3254b3400c7de526b54b5ca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry John “Oppress” Preston vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Preston_John Title A name given to the resource John “Oppress” Preston video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Preston, John Description An account of the resource John “Oppress” Preston was a leading member of the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party (BPP). His role within the party was to set up and distribute the BPP newspaper throughout the state of Illinois. Though the BPP started in Oakland, California in 1966, it was not until April 25, 1967 that they published their first official newspaper. By 1969 the newspaper had a nationwide distribution of about 250,000 copies. In Illinois, distribution climbed up to about 80,000 copies.Mr. Preston describes what a major operation it was to set up and distribute the paper. Many times the newspaper was used as part of Political Education or “P.E.” classes. It was automatically given to new members to sell. The Black Panthers were about being out and active in the community as well as educating the People. The office was primarily used as a place to stop over to eat with others from the community or to report in; very quickly members were back on the streets selling papers and talking with the People.The BPP Newspaper was used as a tool for discussion on the many corners where it was sold. In this way it also provided visibility, as individuals would wave or drive by honking their horns. The newspaper also provided guidance to the Young Lords and to the many other organizations that were connected in one way or the other to the Black Panthers. The Young Lords began to put out their own bilingual newspaper which was then distributed in Latino areas along with several other organizations. Although it was improving, it still lacked in the sophistication of the work done by Mr. Preston. He delivered the newspaper to the various branches and chapters in Illinois cities; they, in turn, would distribute it to their assigned geographical area. There was an accounting for each and every newspaper because the paper also provided income for the BPP chapters. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9c98578313225f05817eb194a8321dd7.pdf 2a7def24dbed2de83aa50e81891bb077 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ted Pearson Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/12/2012 Biography and Description Ted Pearson is a long-time resident of Lincoln Park who has been active within the progressive movement all his life. Early on in 1968 and 1969 he would come by the Young Lord’s People’s Church to offer his support for the Young Lords and their programs. For most of the Young Lords who had just stepped out of gang violence in Chicago, it was their first time ever being involved in protests, demonstrations, or sit-in occupations of institutions. It was a difficult beginning for the Young Lords, who lacked role models and reference points. Some people were even afraid of their unrefined meager appearance, though they were creative and dressed in their best with what they had. Nevertheless, the Young Lords did not originate from a middle class movement. They did not even resemble a student movement at first. It was only later when they began to grow that students and others joined them. Back then there was pride to say you were “Lumpen.” Mr. Pearson and others like him stood for working people, and he hated discrimination and racism then and now. He was one of several who did not judge, but related, relaxed, and took the time to talk and get to know the original members of the Young Lords. It was easy to notice that he genuinely cared for the plight of the poor, and in turn for him to realize that the Young Lords were not evil but were his friends. They were odd looking but they shared the same values. He was also strong on the need to fight racism. Mr. Pearson co-chaired the Chicago branch of the National Alliance Against Racist and Political Repression. His mother had been active in the Women’s �International League for Peace and Freedom. She was a strong supporter of a movement called, “The Right of a Black Family to live in a White Community.” This movement was led by Carl Braden and was put forth during the Red Scare of the 1950s, when the House Un-American Activities Committee was hunting for communists, in all parts of government and the country. Mr. Pearson has supported many democratic causes since before the 1960s. They include the Young Lords and Black Panthers, Voter Registration Drives, Immigrant Rights, The Committee to Defend the Bill Of Rights, Harold Washington for Mayor, the Obama Campaign, and the Lincoln Park Neighbors United for Peace Against the War in Iraq. This was a grassroots group of neighbors who came together to speak out in a unified voice against the war. They believe in using peaceful non-violent solutions, to promote social justice, conserve the environment and protect civil and human rights. �Transcript TED PEARSON: Ted Pearson, I was born July 22nd, 1942, in New York. JOSE JIMENEZ: In New York? TP: Yeah. JJ: All right. Ted, we’re talking about your mother and you coming here to Chicago. You said you were the only child? TP: Mm-hmm. JJ: What about children? Did you have any children, or what’s your spouse’s name? TP: Kathy. And we’ve been married since December 1963. We have two children and four grandchildren. JJ: What are their names? TP: Two children named Allen and Robert and then four grandchildren, Matthew, Emily, Lee, and Lynn. [00:01:00] And of course, they’re all above average, right? JJ: They’re red diaper babies? Is that what you’re saying? TP: Well, no. Lee and Lynn are not, because their family situation was more complicated. Our son married their mother. We call them our grandchildren, but they’re not directly related to us. And then our other two kids, they’re very political actually. Kids aren’t political these days. I don't know what’s the matter, but they just don’t get political. JJ: Do you feel bad about that? TP: Well, I worry about the future of the world when so many kids seem to be not that concerned, but I think it’s changing. I think today, more and more young people 1 �are becoming concerned about the way things are going and what’s going on. But to be honest, I have to say that we didn’t do our job very well, in terms of bringing up the young people to have more of a social conscience [00:02:00] and think more about the future of the world and the people and where we’re going. JJ: When you say they’re not political, do they recognize that there was some discrimination of some people? TP: Oh, yeah, they’re progressive, I would say. They’re democratic, you know, in the small D. JJ: They’re not Republican. TP: No, they’re against discrimination. They’re for peace. They’re for all the right issues, but they’re not activists. JJ: And what is an activist to you? TP: An activist to me is a person who devotes themselves to the movement, who sees that as their main reason for existence, so to speak, you know, the way we were. JJ: So, you mean someone that goes out and will pass out some flyers or go to meetings? TP: Someone [00:03:00] who feels responsible for the future of the world and the city and the community, who doesn’t say, “Yeah, yeah, I agree, but let somebody else worry about it.” JJ: And that’s what’s going on today? TP: I think so, too much, but more and more young people are getting involved. I think the Occupy movement was a good example. It’s a turning point. We’ll see. 2 �JJ: And what did happen to the Occupy movement in Chicago? I remember making a call, and it took me a long time to get through, so I could tell that there was some kind of repressive thing going on there, when I can’t even get ahold of somebody. TP: Yeah. The Occupy movement, of course, it’s very diffused. JJ: And there was something with the phone. It wasn’t that they didn’t respond. I clearly connected to their office. It’s not a response issue. TP: I mean, there are a lot of different currents, and there’s no leader of the Occupy movement, so it’s a kind of a loose [00:04:00] coalition of people. They come, and they respond to specific things, but I think that the spirit is there. They’ve changed the conversation in the country. That’s what’s important, I think. JJ: And a lot of the stuff are issues that at least the Young Lords were concerned about, in terms of the Bank of America and housing and all this other. TP: Yeah, they’re anti-corporate. They’re anti-bank. They’re anti-finance, and many anti-capitalists, but they don’t have a clear revolutionary perspective, I don’t think. JJ: So, what would you say, that they’re just in their infancy, or are they gone? TP: Yeah, it’s a very new movement. No, they’re not gone. I think the State is trying to disrupt them. They’ve been victims of repression. They’ve been infiltrated by the police. They’ll learn. They’re learning. First of all, [00:05:00] you can’t characterize them as such because there’s so many different currents, and I think it’s a very fluid situation. People are learning. People will study. I don’t think that they express a class struggle approach, per se, but they certainly project a struggle approach, and they’re 99 percent against the one percent, but they 3 �might not see it quite as a class struggle because they don’t understand classes the way Marxists would. Let’s put it that way. But still, I’m very optimistic. JJ: I agree that they’re similar in, well, kind of anti-what we were. We wanted to try a different approach or something. For example, the whole too much, like ultrademocracy, they would call it, they wanted [00:06:00] more democracy. They wanted more looseness, and we couldn’t understand. It’s difficult for us -- TP: We’ve been there. JJ: -- to understand that. TP: We have to be very careful we don’t say, “We’ve done that. we could tell you what’s wrong with it.” They gotta learn that for themselves, and they’ll figure out maybe a better way. Not like we had such a great success story. Once we ended the war, things kinda fall apart. JJ: It’s been kinda quiet for a while, so it’s good that they’re there. So, overall, you feel that they’re surprising -- TP: I’m very optimistic, yeah, if we can keep the world from melting in the meantime. (laughs) JJ: So, you mentioned your children now. You said you lived in Lincoln Park since 1964. TP: Yeah. [00:07:00] JJ: Did you live on the western part of Lincoln Park at that time too? TP: We lived at Menomonee and Cleveland, 1808 Cleveland, and we moved there from Hyde Park. My wife and I had just gotten married. We’d just gotten out of 4 �school. We needed a place that we could afford to live. I went and worked for the movement right away, right out of school. I’d never worked at a regular job. JJ: What do you mean? You got a job? You actually got a job? TP: Yeah, I got, well, a paying job. I got 35 dollars a week (laughs) for working for the CP. I started working in the bookstore, and I was also an organizer for the W.E.B. DuBois Clubs, which was a precursor to the Young Communist League, which came later. JJ: So, it was called, at first, the W.E.B. DuBois Club? TP: Yeah. JJ: And what was that like? TP: It was a socialist-oriented youth organization. That’s what we called it, coming out of the McCarthy period. It had an obvious relationship to the Communist Party, but it wasn’t organizationally [00:08:00] connected to the Communist Party. But we needed a place to live that was inexpensive. We couldn’t afford to stay in Hyde Park, so at that time -- and this was back when the Old Town School of Folk Music was still at North Avenue and Cedric. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know they were there first. TP: Yeah, they were at 333 West North Avenue. Also in the building was the Proletarian Party, which you probably never heard of. JJ: No, I never heard of that. TP: This was a bunch of old guys who -- and I mean, they still met. They were a spinoff of one of the socialist parties. JJ: Three-thirty-three, is that where that was? 5 �TP: It’s right on the corner of North and Cedric. There had also been a progressive Marxist school there. JJ: So, how was it for you? That was a progressive area? TP: This was in the ’60s, in the early ’60s, late ’50s. So, we figured the North Side was kind of a cool place to live, [00:09:00] and we wanted to live up there, so we found an apartment at Menomonee and Cleveland, 65 dollars a month for six rooms. And you had to heat it yourself, and had the hot water heater in the kitchen, and the landlord, her name was Bonafede, an Italian couple. The daughter lived on the first floor. They lived on the second floor, and the apartment on the third floor was the one they were renting. JJ: So, was this an Italian area, you think? TP: Well, there was some Italians. It was a mix. It was a mix of Italians, Germans, different European nationalities. JJ: Is your background Italian too? TP: No. My background, my father was Jewish, and my mother was a Presbyterian. So, when we went up there, my wife and I went up there in the evening, [00:10:00] and we liked the place, and the guy says, “Oh, well, my wife made a mistake. When we she showed it to you, she told you 65 dollars, and we’d been charging that for years, and we decided we were gonna raise the rent to 75 dollars. Is that okay?” He said, “Just after a year. It’ll be 65 for the first year and then 75, and I’ll never raise the rent again. I promise.” I said, “That’s great. That’s fine.” I said, “Where is the lease?” He says, “Lease?” He says, “What’s the matter? Don’t you trust me?” (laughter) He says, “You pay the rent, and you 6 �live there. What else do you want, you know?” That’s the way it was back in those days. We lived there five years. He never raised the rent after that, and the only reason we moved was because our kids, we had one kid, and we wanted more, and we’d need more room and bought a little house over on Magnolia Avenue and Webster, and we’ve been there ever since. So, that’s it. But when we bought our house -JJ: Did you live on Bissell also? TP: No, never on Bissell. [00:11:00] We bought our house in 1969 for 13,000 dollars. Most houses today over there are going for over a million dollars. I mean, that’s how the neighborhood’s changed. JJ: Magnolia and Webster in Lincoln Park? TP: Yeah. I mean, when we moved over there, south of Menomonee on Cleveland was mostly Puerto Rican. South of North Avenue was all Black. JJ: South of Menomonee and Cleveland was Puerto Rican in 1964? TP: Yeah. And west of there, Larrabee Street was mostly all Black, and west of Larrabee was mixed, Puerto Rican, Black, white. They tore down all of Larrabee Street. They tore down most of North Avenue, all that North Avenue. They widened the street. They tore all that stuff down. I mean, they just pushed all -- JJ: Because I remember North Avenue was like the borderline. Just like north, [00:12:00] it was beginning to start spreading Puerto Ricans that had come from the Carl Sandburg Village area. TP: Yeah. 7 �JJ: Now, let me ask you a question because you mentioned that Cedric and North Avenue was the aggressive area, also what they used to call Bughouse Square. TP: Yeah, that was at Washington Park. JJ: So, was that also part of that community? TP: Well, it’s south of there, but it had a tradition. JJ: That’s what I mean. TP: It was expected that -- it was a very -- what’s the word? “Progressive” is not quite the right word, but it was a very tolerant area. People, even the old-timers in the neighborhood, would tolerate people who were different, which is maybe why the neighborhood attracted a lot of artists and a lot of hippies and, you know, young people and some radicals [00:13:00] and folk singers like Win Stracke. The Old Town School of Folk Music was right over there. I used to drive a cab, and this is really not very important, but I used to get off work at one or two in the morning. I would go to -- there used to be a place of North and North Park. I drove out of the Checker garage on North Park and North Avenue, and after work, I’d go over to this place, the Saddle Club, right on the corner of North Park and North Avenue. And Win Stracke and all the kids from the Old Town School would come in there after their classes, and they’d sit around, and they’d sing, and they’d drink. It was the greatest time, you know? Nobody does that anymore. Maybe the Old Town School in their new location does that. I don't know. I haven’t been up there. But it’s just, that’s the way the neighborhood was in those days. And everybody was welcome. It was one of the few places in Chicago, even though it was structured -- I mean, it was segregated. [00:14:00] I don’t want to make it 8 �sound like it was -- it wasn’t heaven, you know. There were little ghettos here and there. There was a Puerto Rican block and a Black community. Like west of Sheffield, along Maud and along in there, that was all Black, South of Armitage, west of Sheffield, in that triangle. Now there’s no Black people living there at all, not any, unless they’re wealthy, and I don’t think there are very many that are wealthy. JJ: That’s what you mean by it was segregated? TP: Yeah. But even though it was segregated like that, there was still tolerance. Everybody got along. You mentioned earlier the gangs that were growing up around in the ’60s. I wasn’t aware of that really, to be honest. JJ: But I mean, you didn’t see like Armitage was starting? Because at nighttime, we only saw for a while -- I think it was actually until 1955 [00:15:00] and ’60, I think that the youth, the social clubs became gangs. But at nighttime, there was more Spanish people living there at that time as you went. TP: Yeah. JJ: After like ’66, they were already moving out. TP: Moving west further. JJ: But around ‘64, you could still see some Spanish people living there. TP: Oh, yeah, but I wasn’t aware of gangs. JJ: Oh, you weren’t? TP: No. Of course, we didn’t go out late at night very much. I mean, you’d see people on the street, but -- JJ: Yeah, during the day, they weren’t out. 9 �TP: It was not like it was a high crime area. I don't know. It was a nice place to live, really. And you know, sure, stuff happens. Things would happen. JJ: In fact, they called themselves social clubs, and a lot of them were really playing softball and different -- did you see any of that [00:16:00] going on? TP: You’d see people playing softball, sure, in the schoolyard. Right. But I wasn’t aware of organizations of youth, of young people, because I wasn’t young enough, I guess, and I wasn’t really from that neighborhood in the same way they were. I know there was a little store downstairs from where we lived on Cleveland, you know, one of these little mom-and-pop stores. And the people that ran it, they were racist. They really were. They would say things about Black people and Puerto Ricans that were very uncomplimentary, to say the least, but they never refused to take money from any of the people. They would let kids come into the store and buy things, and people would buy things. They had attitude problems, but still in all, you know. JJ: Now, at that time, there was a big -- it was a group called the [Corps?] that hung around in the playground of St. Michael’s. [00:17:00] You never saw it? TP: I wasn’t aware of it, no. JJ: We were just looking for -- we were young, and we were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: Right. I wasn’t very aware of that at all. It’s not that I never saw it, I’m sure. I just didn’t think about, you know. JJ: But you were aware that there were these different sections in there, the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) sections? 10 �TP: And I was very aware of the urban renewal that was going on already. JJ: What was that? TP: Well, like on Larrabee Street, there was a big struggle to save Larrabee Street as a Black community, or just as a community, because it was a thriving neighborhood. And there were all these tensions. There was the Ranch Triangle Association, the Lincoln Park -- what were they called? JJ: Neighborhood Association. TP: Neighborhood Association, they wanted urban renewal, and we would all, “we,” now I’m talking about the left-wingers, would always argue, “You know, you guys are shooting yourselves in the head. You allow them to push out these people, [00:18:00] they’re gonna end up pushing everybody out.” And that happened. Most of those folks are all gone, can’t afford to live there anymore, but we lost that struggle. JJ: So, did you go to some of those meetings? TP: Yeah. JJ: And what -- TP: Well, we’d speak, and we’d try to raise hell, but we didn’t win. And it wasn’t ‘til later really that the Neighborhood Commons and the Young Lords, later in the ’60s, late ’60s, that there was more of an organized fight back then. JJ: But in the beginning, you struggled. Were there any Blacks or Spanish people going to the meetings? TP: Sure, because their communities were being affected, but they just spoke as individuals. That’s my recollection. Now, I could be wrong. I remember some of 11 �the progressives in the neighborhood that I thought they were not so clear on it, because everybody [00:19:00] wants to live in a nice neighborhood, right? But how come living in a nice neighborhood means that certain people have to be pushed out of the neighborhood? It’s not right. And I remember the Tap Root Pub. It’s the only thing that was saved, and then they lost their liquor license, but they kept going for a couple years, and then they finally left. JJ: What was his name, Buddy? Buddy was his first name or nickname, Buddy from Tap Root Pub. TP: He was a Libertarian or something. Yeah. JJ: And a shrewd businessperson. TP: Yeah. I can’t remember his name. JJ: But he was still there the same day that they were knocking it down. TP: Yeah. JJ: So, he (inaudible). TP: He held on as long as he could. What the heck was his name? JJ: Buddy. It was Buddy something. TP: Yeah. I don’t remember. JJ: But then he moved. He used the fact that the pub got destroyed, and he moved it [00:20:00] right around the block, so he had a lot of customers. TP: Yeah, but then that’s gone too. JJ: That’s gone now? TP: Yeah, it’s all gone. JJ: That’s sad. 12 �TP: Yeah. I don't know what happened to him. JJ: But he did fight. He was a businessman fighting urban renewal. TP: Yeah, he fought, but he fought by himself. And one man is easy. They picked him off eventually. JJ: Because I know when he was in the building, they were knocking it down. He was still in the building. TP: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So, you were going to the meetings. What about, just ask you because that was during that time the Democratic Convention was close to -- I mean, the neighborhood was also called Lincoln Park, and you were living there. TP: Right. JJ: So, were you active? What was your role? TP: See, I wasn’t active in the neighborhood as I should’ve been, to be honest. [00:21:00] I feel that way now. I was active in the peace movement. I was active in the broader youth movement. There was a demonstration in May of 1968. Clark Kissinger was one of the main organizers of it. You remember Clark? JJ: I remember that name. TP: Good organizer. We marched from Grant Park to the Daley Plaza. The police had closed the Daley Plaza, but they neglected to tell anybody that it was closed, so it was 10,000 people. It’s a pretty big demonstration for Chicago. It was against the Vietnam War. We get to the Daley Plaza, and the police say the plaza’s closed. They wouldn’t let anybody on the sidewalk even, couldn’t get in at all. Nobody in the back of the line knew what was going on in the front of the 13 �line, [00:22:00] except that people were just getting pushed more, tighter and tighter and tighter, and then finally the police said, “You’re a disorderly mob. You have to disperse.” And they started beating the shit outta everybody. This was a precursor to the Democratic Party Convention. It was like a practice run, and arrested I don't know how many people, a lot of people. They beat up. I mean, people were thrown into paddy wagons. They were bloody, fractured skulls. Nobody got killed or anything, but I was there. I was working for the People’s Daily World. I was taking pictures of what was going on. They grabbed me. I got hit over the head, thrown in a wagon. They grabbed my camera, and obviously I didn’t get any of those pictures. And then they threw us all in a tank at 11th and State. It must’ve been 50 people crammed into this holding cell they had. But I missed the Democratic Party [00:23:00] Convention because I got hit by a car in June. JJ: Oh, okay. You got hit by a car? But these people were all from Chicago? TP: Yeah. These were all Chicagoans. This demonstration was all Chicagoans. JJ: This was a precursor to the -- TP: It was a precursor. JJ: -- to the Democratic Convention. TP: Right. And the Democratic Convention, I was in the hospital. I watched it on a TV, felt terrible about it. JJ: You got hit by a car, you said? TP: I got hit by a car, crossing the outer drive, in June of 1968. JJ: But it had nothing to do with the demonstration. 14 �TP: No, I was just on my way to a meeting, actually, and was crossing. I used to park on the other side of the drive. Used to be able to park over there for 25 cents for four hours. (laughs) That was a long time ago. And so, you could park all day for 50 cents, basically, and so I was walking to my car, and I got hit by a car, crossing the drive. Guy ran a red light, and he was going pretty fast, and I spent four months in the hospital. [00:24:00] JJ: Where was your office, and where were you functioning? TP: My office was downtown in the Loop at Monroe and Wabash. That’s the People’s Daily World office and the CP office. JJ: Okay. And now, you mentioned before about the different groups, the W.E.B. DuBois organization? TP: Yeah, W.E.B. DuBois. JJ: Was that a precursor to the -- TP: To the Young Workers Liberation League, which then became the Young Communist League. JJ: Would you say that there were different forms organizing or something like that, different meeting structure, different structure? TP: Well, I mean -- JJ: Without going deep into description, I’m just trying to -- TP: No, the organization was not focused on the neighborhood. Like the DuBois Club, we had a Chicago organization. It wasn’t very large. It was only maybe a couple dozen people. [00:25:00] We were involved in the movement, the civil 15 �rights movement, the peace movement, but not any neighborhood movements per se, although some people were. JJ: So, there was a struggle of saying that they needed work in the neighborhoods? TP: No, we didn’t, not really. I tell you, I became more aware of the neighborhood movement in Lincoln Park when you guys took over the seminary. And that, for me, was really the beginning of involvement in that kind of a struggle, in the neighborhood. I’d been on the periphery of the struggle before. I had opinions. I’m one of those people who has an opinion about everything. I don’t know much, but (laughs) I’ll give you an opinion on anything. JJ: So, what was your involvement with the connection with the Young Lords? TP: I was at McCormick Theological Seminary when you guys sat in. JJ: I remember going to a meeting, I think, with you, if you recall that. TP: I don't know. JJ: We went to a meeting. It was a CP meeting or something. I was just being introduced. [00:26:00] TP: There was a guy that lived in Lincoln Park, David Engelstein. You remember him, his wife, Fritzi Engelstein? He named the clinic after her. JJ: That’s right. TP: He was in the party, and he actually had a group, a study group, I think, and I think you were in the study in the group, and I might’ve gone. JJ: I wasn’t in the study group, but I came. I came to one of the meetings. TP: Because I know he talked about you. JJ: Oh, maybe it was him then. 16 �TP: He was very impressed with you. But anyway, he was more involved in Lincoln Park in the neighborhood. JJ: Okay, so maybe it was him that brought me. But then I don't know how we got to know each other, we got in contact. TP: Well, I got to know you in McCormick Theological Seminary. When you guys, when that sit-in took place, Donna Morgan was involved in that struggle, and I had a personal relationship with her, which I don’t want to go into because it was not the most healthy situation. JJ: Oh, okay, so you knew Donna or something like that? [00:27:00] TP: Yeah, but I got involved in that, not through her, but in part, with her. JJ: Now, did I ever meet [Canti?], or did I meet Donna? TP: You probably met Donna, red-haired woman. She lived on Bissell. JJ: That’s the one. Okay. TP: Right. She had two kids. And she ended up taking a bunch of money from the settlement from the sit-in, which was very bad. She did some really bad stuff. JJ: From the -- TP: From, you know, when you guys got the settlement from McCormick, and I don’t remember. I mean, I don't know, I never knew how it was actually -- the Young Lords got some money. I don't know. JJ: People accused me of taking some money, and I was trying to say, “What money?” TP: There was this group, Angie Lynn? JJ: Angie Lynn, yes. 17 �TP: She had Angie Lynn that set up this working in welfare mothers in Lincoln Park, and they got some money. JJ: Yeah, it was called Mothers and Others. TP: Something like that. Anyway. JJ: Oh, the welfare [00:28:00] group, okay. TP: Yeah. So, they got money from McCormick. JJ: That was Omar Lopez then, the Latin American Defense Organization. TP: Right, that was a different -- JJ: They were working with the welfare rights. So, Donna was working with them? TP: They ended up spending the money, and she spent it on herself. JJ: Okay, because they did get money for a clinic. They got 25,000 dollars for a clinic. TP: Well, they never set up a clinic. JJ: No, they did, but maybe she was managing some of the monies for them. TP: She mismanaged a bunch of the money, because I remember you guys -- JJ: Yeah, because they closed down. We kept our clinic. TP: You guys were really pissed because the question came up, what happened to the money? And I know you came to me. JJ: Exactly. And I got blamed for it, and I never even knew there was money. TP: I didn’t know what was going on. And when we asked Donna about it, she gave us these photocopies of all these checks made out to cash, signed on the back by either her [00:29:00] or Angie Lynn. But she had falsified them. She had whited it out in the main photocopies. 18 �JJ: But Angie Lynn was our communications secretary. TP: Yeah. I got blamed for it because I had the -- JJ: She must’ve falsified Angie’s name. TP: Yeah. I think so. Yeah. But anyway, it doesn’t matter. JJ: Right, but it’s good to know because I’d been accused. I didn’t even know that there was money. TP: I heard on the grapevine years later, well, not that long later, a year or two later, that somebody at McCormick had asked Donna, why did she take all that money? And she said she used it for my campaign. I was running for the Constitutional Convention for 1970. JJ: Exactly. That’s what that was. TP: And she said she used it for my campaign. I said, “What?” JJ: That’s the meeting I went to, was the Constitutional Convention. That’s what it was. TP: I said, “What?” “That’s what she said.” So, I got, “No wonder you guys [00:30:00] came to me mad, wanted to know where the money was.” (laughs) We had a meeting in your office, and it was pretty rough because you thought I had the money, or took the money, I think. JJ: I was accused of having the money, but I would get accused of anything any other members did. TP: Well, they accused you of everything anyway. JJ: Anything the members did, I got blamed for, but that’s all right. That was my responsibility. 19 �TP: Well, I remember you guys used to have those -- it wasn’t a picnic -- like a barbecue, remember, at the church, when you took the church over? It was for [Delares?] or something, and we used to go out and get vegetables and food and bring it over. Remember that? JJ: Right. Yeah. TP: Because we’d have to go down to the old South Border Market and get a lot of stuff for free. JJ: Well, no, I don’t remember completely, so explain to me [00:31:00] about that, and what was that? We had the people (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? TP: I don’t remember the details, but there was more than once, I think. There was a big cookout, and I think a party, a big neighborhood party. JJ: Yeah, we had a block party, the first block party in that area. Now it’s everybody has block parties there. TP: Yeah, and so we went out to the market, and we got vegetables and -- because you know, the market after 11 o’clock, if they can’t sell it, they throw it away anyway, right? So, we would get all the stuff that they hadn’t been able to sell, get corn on the cob and lettuce and tomatoes and all kinds of good stuff. We got some meat from some of the packers, even. I think we got some ribs and stuff. I don’t remember. It was a trunk load of stuff, and we brought it over. It was a great time. JJ: So, you were at McCormick, and that kind of lasted a week. TP: Yeah. I stayed. I slept there a couple nights. JJ: What was it like being in there? 20 �TP: It was fun. I don’t remember. [00:32:00] JJ: What do you remember? TP: I remember there were a couple of big meetings. Was it in the administration building? It wasn’t in the chapel. It was fairly big building. JJ: Yeah, the administration building. TP: And Noel Ignatin was there. Remember Noel and his wife Hilda? JJ: Yeah. She was pretty active with Angie, right, the Mothers and Others? Yeah. TP: Right. And Clark Kissinger was there, and he was waving a Little Red Book all the time. JJ: Clark Kissinger, he was into the Red Book. He was real close to us, and he actually was the artist that did the work inside, the murals inside. He did a whole Puerto Rican history inside the -- TP: I didn’t know that. JJ: -- for the daycare center. He drew it. TP: Yeah, he’s with the RCP now. He’s prominent in that. JJ: Revolutionary -- TP: Revolutionary Communist Party. It’s the Maoists, the only surviving Maoists. JJ: Wasn’t Eugene his dad or somebody? [00:33:00] TP: I don't know. JJ: Eugene Feldman, right? TP: Eugene Feldman, I know, but I don't know -- JJ: Was he related in some way to Clark? TP: I don’t think so. Maybe he was. I don't know. 21 �JJ: Maybe (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Who was Eugene Feldman’s son? TP: I don't know. Gene Feldman was at the DuSable Museum. That’s how I knew him. JJ: Yeah. But he worked with us too. He was supporting us too. We had a bunch of leaders around us that I didn’t know that they were leaders ‘til later. TP: He was older. JJ: He was older. He was very active and supportive. TP: There were a lot of left-wingers used to live in Lincoln Park. Remember Syd Harris? Did you know him? JJ: No. I heard that name though. TP: He was a photographer. He did a lot of work for the labor movement. JJ: Who? TP: The labor movement. JJ: Oh, he did, Syd Harris? Okay. I knew he (inaudible). That’s what I mean. All these (inaudible) people came around the church TP: His son just published a book of his work a couple years ago, Jerry Harris. Do you know Jerry Harris? JJ: No, I don’t know him, but [00:34:00] I want to get to know him now because now that you mention these names, I remember that they would come. I would get introduced to them. TP: Yeah, Syd used to work on Cedric. Remember where Twin Anchors is, or was? I don't know if it’s still there or not, at Willow and -- is it Willow? JJ: Willow and Cedric. 22 �TP: Willow and Cedric, right on the corner, Syd lived right next door to there, and his house burned down. Oh, it must’ve been in the early ’70s that it happened. JJ: So, the church became like (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: His wife, his first wife, lived on Orchard. Remember Fran Vivian? Does that name ring a bell? JJ: You know, it does ring a bell. TP: Yeah, an older white lady that lived at like 1848 North Orchard. She and Syd, not naming the other, Phyllis Harris, lived in that building. They had a two-flat. JJ: If you hadn’t mentioned the names, I would’ve forgotten them. TP: These were old-timers. They’d been there for a while. [00:35:00] JJ: And did they always live in Lincoln Park? TP: Yeah. I don't know about Syd, but I know Fran had lived there for, I don't know -- JJ: Ages? TP: -- a thousand years. (laughs) JJ: So, they were from Lincoln Park. They were the progressives of Lincoln Park and the CP. (laughs) TP: Yeah. Well, David and Fritzi lived in Lincoln Park. They always did. They used to live on -- JJ: That’s right, because the clinic was named after her. TP: -- what was it -- on Belden just east of -- JJ: So, what was Fritzi? Why were they involved, and what did they do? TP: David is an educator. JJ: I know they named the clinic after her. 23 �TP: And Fritzi was active. I think she was active with -- remember what’s-her-name -Kathy Devine and all those people that had -- JJ: Pat Devine. TP: Pat Devine, yeah. JJ: I actually interviewed her too. TP: Good. And she’s still in Chicago? JJ: She’s still in Chicago. She’s on the South Side. TP: I haven’t seen her in a long time. I probably wouldn’t know her if I saw her now, you know? JJ: Yeah. Well, you’ll see her. The interview’s on YouTube. TP: Okay. [00:36:00] But Fritzi somehow got involved, maybe coming out of the meetings that David had with you guys. I don't know. There was a lot of fervor. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) were involved. JJ: She was involved with Pat. Pat was definitely going with us. Pat was one of the people that got me involved in the (inaudible). TP: Yeah. And I’m trying to remember, was the clinic -- I don’t remember why she -- JJ: Well, the clinic, right in the beginning, we had one clinic, and that was Fritzi Engel’s thing. That was more on diversity. But I knew them, so I knew these people, and I knew why they named the clinic after her, so she must’ve done a lot of -- TP: Yeah, she was a very good person. I think she passed away. I can’t remember when she died. I’d have to look at some files. JJ: What was she involved with? 24 �TP: You know, I don't know. I’d have to go back and look. I could find out. [00:37:00] She was obviously well-known enough that they named the clinic after her. JJ: Right. So, she must’ve done a lot. TP: Have you talked to Mike James? He would know. JJ: I have talked to Mike James. But I will talk to him. I got to talk to him, especially now. So, what Eugene Feldman? What was he? TP: Feldman, I only knew from the DuSable Museum. I really didn’t know him from Lincoln Park. JJ: So, he was connected to the DuSable Museum. TP: He lived in Lincoln Park though, I think. JJ: He lived in Lincoln Park? TP: Right. The main way I knew him was through the DuSable Museum. JJ: Yeah, Lincoln Park had offices in tabloids, newspaper tabloids. All the different groups were -- TP: Yeah. I remember the Wobblies used to -- well, Johnny Ross and them, the Threepenny settlement, and he was kind of a character. JJ: Well, actually, he would give us monies from his theatre, and we actually one day went to him for monies, and he refused. And we sat in, in his office, and then the reporters [00:38:00] came and wanted us to talk against him, but then we decided not to do that because we had a lot of respect for him, so we just walked outta there. And the next day, he called and says, “Okay, we can talk now,” and he gave us a donation. But we didn’t want to go against someone who was progressive. 25 �TP: Yeah. He had that building. JJ: And that was good. TP: He had that building on Lincoln Avenue, where the Wobblies had their office, you remember, upstairs? JJ: Right. Oh, that was his building? TP: Yeah. JJ: I know he had the (inaudible) theatre and all that, Threepenny, something like that. TP: He had a bunch of theatres in Chicago, all on (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: Yeah, that’s what it was. He had the Spanish theatres too, were his. TP: Right. He had one up on Sheridan Road. I forget the name of it. It was like Sheridan and south of Lawrence. JJ: Oh, yeah, that’s right. We actually had a meeting there. TP: I think it was a big theatre. I don’t remember the name of it though. JJ: I can’t remember what it was. TP: Palacio something. I don't know. JJ: Palacio Theatre. Yeah, [00:39:00] he was (inaudible) TP: Anyway, you bring back memories, you know? I would’ve never thought of this stuff. (laughs) JJ: That was Lincoln Park. TP: But actually, Johnny lived in Hyde Park, but he had a lot of connections in Lincoln Park. JJ: He had fought against the fascism of the Spanish Civil War. 26 �TP: He was in the Lincoln Batts, yeah. JJ: Which we didn’t know. I mean, we were there. The Young Lords, it was the first time we were ever active. Our parents were not as active as some of the Independence Party or anything. That was the first time we were active. TP: Syd Harris was in the Spanish Civil War also. JJ: Who’s that, Syd Harris? TP: Yeah. JJ: So, what else then, in terms of the changes in Lincoln Park after the Young Lords are no longer there? TP: What time is it getting? Oh, but the coffee. Shut off the (inaudible). Let’s get the -- (break in audio) TP: Everybody that lives there now -- I’ll start [00:40:00] with my block. I live on the 2200 block on Magnolia. Of the people who lived there when we moved there in 1969, there are probably three families left. Erwin Helfer lives across the street. I don't know if you know him. He’s a blues piano player, kind of well known. He was there when we moved in. There was a lady across the street just died this week. And then the Midlers, who live two doors down from us, they’re still there. That’s it. I think I said we paid 13,000 dollars for our house. [00:41:00] Our taxes were 9-- dollars a year. Now our taxes are 25,000 dollars. JJ: A year? From 900 to 20 grand? TP: Yeah. You know, there’s tremendous pressure on people to sell their houses. All the old-timers are gone. 27 �JJ: Would that be the main pressure, that the taxes are up? TP: It’s a big part of it, sure, because you can’t afford to live there. It’s like paying rent to the county. You think you own your house, and you’re paying all this money to the county. Now, I’ll be honest. We rebuilt our house in 1995. We were going to make it bigger, but then it turned out it was actually cheaper to tear it down and build a new one, so that’s what we did. So, that caused our taxes to go up. If we were to rehab the house, it wouldn’t be as high. [00:42:00] I don’t think we realized what the effect would be. So, people whose houses have not been torn down and rebuilt, their taxes aren’t as bad as ours, but it’s still like paying rent to the county. And if you’re a working-class family on a pension, you can’t afford it. And the only reason the Midlers are still there, I’m sure, is because their son lives with them, and he's got a good job, and they can afford to stay there. JJ: But I mean, that did help you, the equity of your house, right? TP: Yeah, but big deal. You can’t spend your equity. What are you gonna do? They say, “Well, these people are complaining about their taxes, but when they sell their house, they’ll get all this money.” But we’re not selling our house. We don’t want to move. We want to stay where we are. A lot of other people had to sell their houses because they couldn’t afford to live there anymore with the taxes because the property values were going up so high. [00:43:00] I mean, when we moved there, the rents were like less than 100 dollars a month. Now a twobedroom apartment, you’ll pay 2,000, 3,000 dollars a month for it. JJ: And when you say that, you’re talking about a big area? 28 �TP: Yeah, the whole Lincoln Park. Where we live on the western edge of Lincoln Park, it’s not -- JJ: Is it by the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) square area? TP: Yeah, it’s becoming even more than over east. It’s costing more. Now they’re building -- you didn’t know these people, I’m sure, but there used to be an old German couple that lived on our block. They had a nice building. Their mother lived there with them, and they rented out one apartment. It was a lot and a half. They moved to Las Vegas or someplace. The building got sold. The guy who bought it tore it down. They built a mansion there. It’s like a 20-room house with a huge drawing room and a [00:44:00] grand piano in it. It’s ridiculous, you know? (laughs) The house on the corner of Belden and Magnolia just sold a couple years ago for four million dollars. Who could afford to live in a neighborhood like that anymore? Working-class people can’t afford that. When we moved on that block, on our block, it was a very mixed block. Around the corner, two Black families, two mixed Black and white families, actually they’re still there. Surprisingly, they’re still there. In fact, the guy that used to work at the hardware store at Armitage, Armitage hardware, what was that, Frank’s Hardware, remember? He’s a Black guy. He used to work at that store on Lynwood. JJ: And he lives on Lynwood? TP: Yeah, he lives around the corner still. He still lives around the corner. JJ: But is the hardware store still there? [00:45:00] 29 �TP: The hardware store is gone. Now, I mean, they have like a bail order business there or something. It’s not really a store. You can’t go in and buy stuff. JJ: And that was pretty well established. TP: Yeah. That was a good hardware store. Also on the block, there was a Mexican family, been there a long time. The whole block was working-class people. Next door to us, there was a couple that had come from Kentucky. He’d been a miner. He was retired early because of black lung. All these people are gone. The neighborhood, rest of like Southport over there was mostly Latino. South of Webster, between Webster and Armitage and Sheffield and Racine was mostly Puerto Rican. That’s my recollection anyway. North of Webster were the old Germans and Italians, and [00:46:00] remember the Kellys? They still live there. They still live on Seminary. Kelly’s Pub, you know Kelly’s Pub on -- JJ: Yeah. TP: They’re still there, but they got money. They were never hurting. But I bet you a lot of the Kellys that used to live on that block aren’t there anymore. I haven’t checked. I’d have to go look. But I ran for alderman. JJ: So, there was a block of Kellys. TP: Yeah. When I ran for alderman, I went door to door, getting signatures on my petition, you know? JJ: You ran for alderman there? TP: In ’71, yeah. JJ: When? TP: Seventy-one. Yeah, I ran against Bill Singer. 30 �JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that. TP: That’s how I got to know Bill Singer, is running against him. JJ: Actually, when he ran for mayor, he came by the church and wanted our endorsement, and then he took a picture with us. (laughs) But we would’ve endorsed you. TP: Well, I didn’t run for mayor. [00:47:00] But the neighborhood is so different now. South of Armitage was all Black, west of Sheffield, south of Armitage, that triangle, east of Clybourn, Maud Street, Kenmore, what was the other? What’s the block west of Sheffield? JJ: West of Sheffield? TP: Yeah. It’s not Dayton. That’s Clark Street. JJ: Yeah, you got Kenmore, and you got Seminary. TP: Yeah, it was Kenmore, Seminary, yeah, those two streets. It was all Black. Now it’s all white, all white. There used to be machine shops all in the neighborhood. Remember? JJ: Right. TP: You know? They’re all condominiums now. People used to neighborhood. Nobody works in the neighborhood now unless they work in the stores, you know, as a clerk. And they don’t [00:48:00] live in the neighborhood. They have to take the bus to get to the neighborhood. But the machine shops, they’re all gone. They’re all condominiums now. Remember there used to be a place on Fullerton, west of Ashland, called [KRIVO?] that catered to the machine trade, the machinists. They had every tool you could imagine. If you could think of a 31 �tool, they had it. There’s no place like that left in the neighborhood. There used to be a place on Clybourn that’s just this side of the tracks, between Fullerton and the railroad tracks, on Clybourn. It had nothing but nuts and bolts. It was entire store, a city lot store filled with nuts and bolts. That’s all they sold. There was no screw that you could possibly [00:49:00] want that they didn’t have. I used to work on my car, and I had an English car. If I broke a bolt, you couldn’t get it at a hardware store. You’d go to that little store, they would have exactly what you needed, the right length, the right thickness, the right thread, everything. That store is gone. All the stuff, when Chicago used to actually make things, in that neighborhood, we used to make stuff in that neighborhood, you know? There used to be that, remember the Pink Lady soap factory over on Lakewood? JJ: Yeah. TP: That’s condominiums now. Believe it or not, they converted that chemical company into condominiums. If those people had any idea what had been going on in that building before they got there, they knew what toxic chemicals were in there, they wouldn’t live there, but nobody told them, so now it’s condominiums. JJ: I believe I had read something that Lincoln Park had a history of [00:50:00] working-class families that, I mean, some of the housing was built back in the ’30s and ’40s war, so like you mentioned, the factories. TP: Yeah, because there were all these factories right in the neighborhood, you could walk to work. You had a couple big machine shops on Clybourn, and then Finkl was over there. They’re still there, Finkl is, although they’re moving too. They’re 32 �going to shut that down now and move that too. They’ll probably put a shopping mall in there or something. JJ: Yeah, they moved all the factories that were there, so that was something that I hadn’t looked at. Now, as an activist person, as someone that knows about racism and all that, how do you feel about what took place in terms of -- I mean, I’m looking at it [00:51:00] from a Latino perspective, but the Black community was wiped out of there, and working-class people were wiped out of there. How do you see that? How was that done, and how do you feel about it? TP: Well, it was done because nobody saw that -- I mean, there were a lot of white property owners in Lincoln Park who thought that making the neighborhood better, which is code for getting rid of the Latinos and the Black people, would somehow make their neighborhood safer and better and all that stuff, except that they couldn’t afford to live there anymore either. So, they were snookered. They were tricked, and racism does that. JJ: What do you mean they were tricked? TP: The real estate agents, the real estate interests, the people, the City, the people who pushed urban renewal. JJ: The City was also involved? TP: Yeah, I mean, of course. It was the whole power structure in there. It was not just a few individuals. [00:52:00] I mean, they had a master plan. Come on, you know that. They planned the get rid of Cabrini-Green 30 years ago, 40 years ago. They realized they made a big mistake when they allowed Black people to live there. They started attacking that project from the beginning. You know 33 �what? You mentioned Fred Hampton. People don’t remember this. Six months after Fred Hampton was murdered, two police were killed at Cabrini-Green, allegedly by snipers. They went through Cabrini-Green. They knocked down all the doors. They arrested hundreds of people. They finally settled on a couple of people that they pinned that crime on, and we’re in touch, the alliance is in touch with those guys now, much [00:53:00] later. JJ: You said, “the alliance.” What’s the name? TP: The Chicago Alliance Against Racist and Political Repression. I’m completely convinced that they’re innocent. They’ve been in prison for 40 years, 42 years. They’re very well adjusted to prison life because when you’re facing a life sentence -- JJ: What are their names again? TP: Johnnie Veal and George Knights. Johnnie Veal was 16 or 17 when this happened. They accused him of being the triggerman who actually shot these two police. Fact is, he was there when it happened, but he wasn’t where they said he was. He wasn’t upstairs shooting at people. He was downstairs playing basketball. We’re struggling to try to reopen his case, but they targeted CabriniGreen for destruction that long ago. They were already thinking about ways, [00:54:00] and they just let the place go to hell, you know? They didn’t do anything to stop the gangs there. They didn’t do anything to make it livable for people, and they made it impossible for people to live there. And then when they wanted to tear it all down, they could get away with it. And you look what’s over 34 �there now. They say they have mixed-income housing, you know, mixed, maybe one or two Black people, and everybody else is middle income. JJ: So, the community was kind of integrated, in a way, segregated? TP: Segregated but mixed. JJ: But mixed. TP: Right. JJ: But how does it look today? TP: Today, it’s all white, except there’s still a few little places left they haven’t got to yet, but it’s just time, just time. JJ: So, you see that as clear race, a racist thing, as an activist person, or how do you see it? TP: Sure. Absolutely. It couldn’t have happened -- [00:55:00] if the white people would’ve objected -- JJ: Because apparently legally, it’s not racism because otherwise they would’ve been sued, right? TP: Well, they were sued, but that’s another story. I mean, sure, you can sue them, but you won’t win. If the white people in the community had not been taken in by this idea of racism, by the idea that somehow getting rid of Black people would make the neighborhood better, and the Puerto Ricans, and the neighborhood would still be livable for those people. Those people are all gone now. They’ve been pushed out just like everybody else. I mean, a lot of them have died. Let’s face it. It’s true too. A lot of them stayed until they passed away, and their kids sold the house. The kids didn’t stay there. They cashed it in. 35 �JJ: So, from your vantage point, how would you attack something? If it’s a racist plan, how would you attack it, from your vantage point, still being living there, [00:56:00] but seeing how everyone got kicked out? TP: I don't know if there’s anything that can be done now to save that neighborhood. JJ: No, not to save their neighborhood but I mean other, the future other. TP: The same thing is going on in Logan Square and in Wicker Park. Wicker Park is probably too late. Logan Square, maybe it’s still possible. I don't know. JJ: Some people say, “Let’s join the zoning board,” or, “Let’s run for council.” TP: I’m for that. You can fight in all those areas. What time is it? I got to watch because I got a meeting. What time is it? JJ: I think it’s time. TP: But, you know, we can continue if you want, I mean later, some other time later, but talk to other people too. END OF VIDEO FILE 36 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3744a8195158c1733d017ce090ddf04f.mp4 92c6122616fcf53a6550281530cf1b8d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ted Pearson vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Pearson_Ted Title A name given to the resource Ted Pearson video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pearson, Ted Description An account of the resource Ted Pearson is a long-time resident of Lincoln Park who has been active within the progressive movement all his life. Early on in 1968 and 1969 he would come by the Young Lord’s People’s Church to offer his support for the Young Lords and their programs. For most of the Young Lords who had just stepped out of gang violence in Chicago, it was their first time ever being involved in protests, demonstrations, or sit-in occupations of institutions. It was a difficult beginning for the Young Lords, who lacked role models and reference points. Some people were even afraid of their unrefined meager appearance, though they were creative and dressed in their best with what they had. Nevertheless, the Young Lords did not originate from a middle class movement. They did not even resemble a student movement at first. It was only later when they began to grow that students and others joined them. Back then there was pride to say you were “Lumpen.” Mr. Pearson and others like him stood for working people, and he hated discrimination and racism then and now. He was one of several who did not judge, but related, relaxed, and took the time to talk and get to know the original members of the Young Lords. It was easy to notice that he genuinely cared for the plight of the poor, and in turn for him to realize that the Young Lords were not evil but were his friends. They were odd looking but they shared the same values. He was also strong on the need to fight racism. Mr. Pearson co-chaired the Chicago branch of the National Alliance Against Racist and Political Repression. His mother had been active in the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom. She was a strong supporter of a movement called, “The Right of a Black Family to live in a White Community.” This movement was led by Carl Braden and was put forth during the Red Scare of the 1950s, when the House Un-American Activities Committee was hunting for communists, in all parts of government and the country. Mr. Pearson has supported many democratic causes since before the 1960s. They include the Young Lords and Black Panthers, Voter Registration Drives, Immigrant Rights, The Committee to Defend the Bill Of Rights, Harold Washington for Mayor, the Obama Campaign, and the Lincoln Park Neighbors United for Peace Against the War in Iraq. This was a grassroots group of neighbors who came together to speak out in a unified voice against the war. They believe in using peaceful non-violent solutions, to promote social justice, conserve the environment and protect civil and human rights. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b051a417dc9e826f1a80a8390d7669d9.pdf cad0ed10b1cc1ea6cce5c132870fd727 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Felícitas Nuñez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/25/2012 Biography and Description Felícitas Nuñez lives in Bermuda Dunes, California. She and Delia Ravelo are co-founders of Teatro de Las Chicanas. The concept began when women of Movimiento Estudíantil Chicano de Aztlán (MEChA) brought their mothers to a university setting. There they organized a “Seminario de Chicanas” so that the mothers could understand what their daughters were going through. They wrote and performed “Chicana Goes to College.” And as a result of the audience’s positive response, Ms. Nuñez and Ms. Ravelo formed the Teatro de Las Chicanas. In the beginning years the core group consisted of just Ms. Ravelo and Ms. Nuñez, but many young women participated in the Teatro. Though working in San Diego, they were influenced by the leftist political ideals of the San Francisco Mime Troupe. They also united with the objectives of the Chicano Movement which included, among other things, social justice, bilingual education, and unionization. It also went further to address women’s equality. Several of the plays written and performed by the Teatro as well as the memories of their core members have been published in Teatro Chicana: A Collective Memoir and Selected Plays (2008). Most of the women who joined the Teatro came from farming towns throughout California and most of them were the first of their families to attend college. Around the early part of June 1969, Ms. Nuñez traveled to Chicago and met with the Young Lords who were transforming themselves from a local Puerto Rican gang into a human rights movement. One month earlier, the Young Lords had occupied the administration building �of McCormick Theological Seminary (today on the campus of DePaul University) with 350 neighborhood residents and held it for an entire week. The Young Lords won all their demands, including $50,000 seed money for two free health clinics, $25,000 to open up the People’s Law Office which still operates today, and $650,000 to be invested by the seminary in low-income housing. One week earlier, the Young Lords had occupied a huge United Methodist Church on Dayton and Armitage, which they were in the process of transforming to become the Young Lords National Headquarters. The church would also house their Free Community Day Care Center, Free Dental and Health Clinic, and Free Breakfast for Children Program. All these programs were modeled after the Black Panther Party programs, of which the Young Lords had recently also connected via Fred Hampton’s Rainbow Coalition that Field Marshall Bobby Lee had also helped to broker. After the take-over of the church, the Young Lords quickly made amends. They did not want to disrupt any church service. When asked by the press if the Young Lords were going to allow the church to hold service, Mr. Jiménez quickly responded, “that it was not really a take over as the doors were now open to everyone, and that he and other Young Lords were planning on attending the services, being led by Rev. Bruce Johnson.” Some members of the congregation left but the Young Lords started meetings with the rest of the congregation, and together they designed the People’s Church symbol and produced a button that showed chains being broken. The Young Lords were cleaning up the church and adding needed paint when Ms. Nuñez arrived and volunteered to organize a group of muralists. Inside the church, Ron Clark and others were painting a mural of Puerto Rican history in the gymnasium. Outside, Ms. Nuñez’s group painted the Young Lords symbol of ”Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón” or “I have Puerto Rico in my Heart.” This lettering was in purple, with a green map of Puerto Rico, and a brown fist holding a rifle. (It had been designed by Ralph “Spaghetti” Rivera and Mr. Jiménez. The first buttons were printed at the Green Duc Button Company at Lake Street and Halsted). Other murals that Ms. Nuñez and her volunteers painted on the church walls were images of Adelita, Emiliano Zapata, Lolita Lebrón, and Don Pedro Albizu Campos. Someone else, probably Ron Clark, painted Che Guevara by the side entrance to the office, with the lettering “Young Lords National Headquarters.” These wonderful murals could not be overlooked in Lincoln Park. Not only were they featured in the news, but Lincoln Park residents would drive by and stop in to see the various programs and activities, making People’s Church the center of the Lincoln Park neighborhood. By then most Puerto Ricans had been forced out of Lincoln Park and there was also plenty of room for others to join the Young Lords Movement. Hispanos representing all Latino nations joined the Young Lords, including members of other minorities, middle class individuals, workers, the very poor, and students. The Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition was formed and Mr. Jiménez was voted president. The Northside Cooperative Ministry, of which Rev. Bruce Johnson was a prominent member, was also established during this period, and it supported the Poor People’s Coalition and the Young Lords. Just sixty days before Mark Clark and Fred Hampton were shot to death, assassinated in a predawn raid led by State’s attorney Edward Hanrahan, Rev. Bruce Johnson and his wife Eugenia were also discovered in their beds stabbed multiple times, in a cold case that remains unsolved. The Eulogy was given at the church with Young Lords fully participating, providing security and traffic control. There was also a spontaneous march through the Lincoln Park Community where Rev. Bruce Johnson worked with the poor. Ms. Nuñez left Chicago unaware of the impact she had made in the Puerto Rican community and in Lincoln Park. The Teatro Chicana did participate in the impromptu Lincoln Park Camp in Michigan in the 2000 and the Young Lords 40th Anniversary celebration in Chicago in 2008. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, go ahead. If you can give me your name and your -- FELICITAS NUÑEZ: Age. JJ: Age and where you were born. FN: I was born in Brawley, California; that’s very close to the Mexicali border. And I am almost 63 years of age, and my name is Felícitas Nuñez. JJ: Okay, Brawley, California. Where’s that at? FN: It’s in Imperial Valley where you have -- JJ: The mid part of -- FN: It’s on the lower part of California close to the border -- JJ: Close to the border? Okay. FN: -- of Mexicali. JJ: Okay, so somewhere -- FN: Very, very hot weather. And when I was first born in the late ’40s, it was a very rich cultural area in agriculture. JJ: In agriculture? Okay, what type of -- FN: They had tomato, (Spanish) [00:01:00] -- I mean, just a big vegetable garden that could feed all of California and more than that. JJ: Okay, so this is a rural area. So you had a farm? Did you own a farm or [anything like the?] -- FN: Oh, no, we worked in the farms of others who owned them. And initially when that originated, they said that the way they started claiming the land was if you 1 �could walk that land -- whatever land you walked, you could claim as your own, and that meant everybody. But I understand that historically, what happened is those that had horses-- specifically, you know, they were mainly Anglo people. They got on a horse, and rode around on the horse and claimed the land. And if they saw anybody on foot, which was mainly whoever couldn’t afford a horse, those were shot. JJ: They were shot? FN: Uh-huh. JJ: To death? FN: Yes. JJ: [00:02:00] Even if they lived there, they were shot there? FN: Well, everybody was claiming land at that time, so I don’t know if everybody there was recently immigrated into that land or really established. But it was a pretty new territory because irrigation had been in full bloom, you know, and those areas that are very dry don’t have a lot of cultivation. So when the canal system came into existence, it had a lot of potential in them. And just like I said, it was a vegetable garden for the whole state of California and more. JJ: So you said there was a canal system set up, or...? FN: Mm-hmm. JJ: How did that function? I mean, where did they -- FN: They got the water from Río Colorado. JJ: Río Colorado? Okay. 2 �FN: And that’s how they started that whole irrigation process. And I understand that that’s the way that the Salton Sea was formed because some dam broke or something, and it filled this whole space. And they call it a man-made sea, Salton Sea, [00:03:00] and there was a salt mine there at one time. And it went all the way to the bottom, so the water filled everything up and became very salty. And fish were able to thrive there at one time, but now with the pollution of pesticides, insecticides, herbicides, everything’s been dying. And, you know, now they’re not even having the Colorado River run through there like it used to because water rights are being claimed privately, and so all the water that’s been drying -- the wind picks up all of this, and everybody’s breathing this massive pollution contamination of the water and earth. JJ: And what was your mother’s and father’s names? FN: (Spanish) [00:03:54] Felícitas [Melina?] -- JJ: Melina? FN: [00:03:57] -- (Spanish) [Felino?] Nuñez. (Spanish). [00:04:00] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:04:13] FN: (Spanish). [00:04:14] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:04:28] FN: (Spanish). [00:04:29] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:04:32] FN: Uh-huh. JJ: So (Spanish)? [00:04:34] What was their names? 3 �FN: (Spanish) [00:04:39] Felino, Julia, Rosa, Josephina. (Spanish) [00:04:48] [Genaro?], Fidel, Raphael, (Spanish), [00:04:52] [Teresa?]. JJ: And what did they do? Where are they at now? FN: [00:04:58] (Spanish). [00:05:00] JJ: (Spanish). [00:05:30] FN: [00:05:31] (Spanish). [00:06:00] JJ: (Spanish) [00:06:06] -- what is that, Bracero? FN: Bracero? [00:06:10] (Spanish). [00:07:00] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:07:25] FN: (Spanish) [00:07:31] -- JJ: (Spanish)? [00:07:32] FN: (Spanish) [00:07:33] -- JJ: (Spanish)? [00:07:35] FN: (Spanish)? [00:07:40] JJ: (Spanish). [00:07:42] FN: (Spanish). [00:07:43] JJ: What is that? FN: (Spanish) [00:07:56] nurse’s aide. [00:08:00] JJ: Nurse’s aide? Okay. FN: (Spanish). [00:08:02] JJ: So I thought in the late ’40s, they were bringing Puerto Rican workers to some of the vagrant camps during that time, so maybe that’s when it happened or later. FN: Yeah, that -- 4 �JJ: Or it stopped -- FN: There’s, I guess -- JJ: -- (laughs) [with the ’60s?]. FN: -- an overall strategy on how things come about. I mean, it doesn’t happen accidentally. The fact that work from the outside is brought in, work that is not consciously organized to fight for their rights, because they’re desperate or they know whoever’s employing them are going to make the contract that -- these people are desperate, so they use that weakness to break whatever strength we had built up here in the United States already. Because the United States has an incredible history of people that fought for rights, and you know, we’re always [00:09:00] putting down the concept of communism. You know, they say, “Oh, you know, you’re a communist,” and you think, “Well, what is a communist?” And it’s a person that thinks of the commonwealth, that thinks about community, and talk about the model of -- what, you know, people admire a lot of Christ was that he was a very just person. In legend or history, whichever, he’s an icon of a image that shared broke bread, you know? And to be called a communist, I think, “Well, my goodness, what’s so ugly about that?” But, you know, it came up with McCarthy. You know, anybody that’s labelled that is really- tried to be put down. JJ: So now, were your parents Catholic, [00:10:00] or what’s -- FN: My mother especially was very religious, and -- JJ: But of what church? FN: (Spanish). [00:10:07] 5 �JJ: (Spanish), [00:10:08] okay. FN: But that was her sanctuary because she was a person that was very naive to begin with. She got into a relationship that was not good. My father was not a very good role model of a human person. In some respects, he was, but when it came to -- he was in the same general -- JJ: What do you mean by that? FN: -- arena where men think they’re superior to women. And then it happens, you know, that women start -- you know, sometimes women are more male supremist than men because they really take that to heart and really think that women should not come out of their roles. So my mother was very Catholic, [00:11:00] but at the same time, the church offered her sanctuary because of the abuse. You know, she had nowhere to turn, and church was a very acceptable place of sanctuary because it was respected by (Spanish). [00:11:16] You know, my father said, “Well, she didn’t go to a cantina to get sanctuary. She went to church to get sanctuary.” And she found a lot of -- JJ: So meaning sanctuary [around?] there -- FN: Where you go to a place, a sacred space, and pour out all of your woes and problems, and get that inspirational strength. And it can be anywhere, but -- JJ: So she didn’t go there to run away or anything. She just went there to pour out her [things?] -- FN: To enforce her spirituality. And, you know, I really -- you know, people say, “Well, are you religious?” And I don’t know. Sometimes to respond -- [00:12:00] I respect people have their religion, but I think in general, what we’re talking 6 �about is her spirituality regardless of what religion it is. The thing is religion becomes an ingroup. If you’re a Catholic or a Protestant, “No, you don’t leave,” but, you know, it sort of divides you. But in common, what we have is that quest, that need for spirituality enforcement. And that commonality to -- you know, that we are one, so religion in the institutionalized sense has done more damage. More wars have been caused in the name of God than, you know, what the image of what Christ was; you know, to love your neighbor, to share bread, to treat everyone as equals. And of course, you know, [00:13:00] that’s all we know because the Bible was written by man, and testament means “witness of testicles”, you know? JJ: Is that what it means, or...? FN: Yes. We don’t have a vagina-ment, you know, so in the Bible -- JJ: Okay, so that’s not -- you’re being a little facetious about that. FN: Well, no, I’m saying that we can accept testament, but we can’t accept a thing like vagina-ment. I mean, to say that vagina is one of the most terrible things that you can say is just offensive as communist. Vagina, communist, menstruation -it’s like, “Oh, my God,” you know? So all of that, you know, goes into my thinking of, “Yes, I do respect religion, but not when it controls you totally to where it puts you against another people just because they have another religion,” [00:14:00] because spirituality should not be property. To me, it’s, you know, connecting to the universe, connecting to the world, connecting to your neighbors, connecting to yourself as one. And that collective consciousness really needs to come out because what happens is the way we are taken over and controlled is by divisive 7 �means. Men against women, black against white, white against red, red against yellow -- you know, it just goes on forever. JJ: Okay, so you’re -- FN: And it just -- JJ: -- growing up in which valley? FN: Right now, I’m living in the -- JJ: No, but at that time, where -- FN: I grew up in Imperial Valley. JJ: Imperial Valley, yeah, okay. FN: And Imperial Valley is mainly [00:15:00] a rural area that was run by (Spanish) [00:15:05] that were Anglo. JJ: Oh, the (Spanish) [00:15:07] were Anglo? FN: Yes, uh-huh. And there, they -- JJ: But I mean, big -- FN: Yeah, big acres of -- JJ: -- acres of land? FN: -- agriculture. JJ: Or agriculture? FN: And all the workers were -- JJ: Where did the workers live? FN: The workers? We were lucky to be one of the fir-- well, I don’t know about the first, but my father had a steady job as a foreman, so that gave us more -- JJ: A foreman there at the -- 8 �FN: A foreman of the Braceros that worked in the fields that were contracted. JJ: Okay, so -- FN: So he was able to gain citizenship. My mother did -- JJ: But did he build his way up, or -- FN: No, he -- JJ: -- he just came in as the foreman? FN: Yeah, he migrated from Mexico, lived in San Bernardino for a while, worked in the trains -- JJ: So he had gone to school [or something to be?] -- except they hired him as a foreman. [00:16:00] FN: He was very smart with figures, and he knew English. JJ: He knew English. FN: He had already worked in the train station in San Bernardino that -- a lot of Mexicanos worked with the trains at that time, and then it started going down because the trucking industry started taking over. But the reason he left the train was because he ran off with my mother. He was about 21, and she was about 15, so they ran away. And then my grandmother put him in jail, so he had to marry my mother, but they ended up in Imperial Valley. And he was hired as a foreman for the Braceros. JJ: Okay, so since he was a foreman, we were talking about where you lived. FN: Yeah, we were able to -- my mother was basically the one that got us a house, you know, because they were living in carpets just like everybody else, (Spanish) -- [00:16:55] 9 �JJ: What do you mean? FN: -- (Spanish). [00:16:56] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:16:57] FN: Just a, you know, makeshift [00:17:00] tent, whatever you could find; sometimes branches or whatever, you know, you could put together to have shelter. JJ: Like a one-room whatever you could build. FN: (Spanish); [00:17:12] you know, dirt floors, and you know, she did the best she could. But then when my older brothers and sisters started working in the fields, she started thinking that they could have a house. And so they all put their money together, and they were able to get a house. JJ: So they were able to get a house, but still, they worked in the fields and -- FN: Oh, yeah, and then my mother eventually got a job in the hospital as a nurse aid. And that was against my father’s wish because he wanted the control, you know. So that was good, and also, she had a sister, my aunt [Aggie?], who started working at this store called Kress. And to us, that was a big honor, [00:18:00] you know, because she worked in a store, my God. You know, that was -- JJ: In the town? That was a town where -- FN: Uh-huh, in San Bernardino. She stayed in San Bernardino, my aunt Aggie, so that also gave us a -- JJ: So she was a big person, yeah. FN: Yeah, she was a big shot, you know, to us. My brother was a big shot because he drove a machine. I mean, Mexicanos didn’t drive machines or work at stores, 10 �you know, where they sold stuff, so that was I guess you could call a progressive side of the family in those days. But -JJ: Okay. So was there that kind of -- some people were looked on better than others, or...? FN: Yes. JJ: Okay. Was there -- FN: Anybody that newly migrated from Mexico were labeled as (Spanish), [00:18:50] wetback -- JJ: (Spanish)? [00:18:56] FN: Uh-huh, (Spanish). [00:18:57] JJ: Why? FN: That was a [00:19:00] derogatory -- JJ: A derogatory term? FN: A very derogatory -- JJ: (Spanish), [00:19:02] you say? FN: (Spanish) [00:19:03] because they crossed the wire. JJ: The wire? Okay. FN: Mm-hmm, but then that’s how we -- JJ: Then you said wetbacks too? Was that a thing? FN: Wetbacks, uh-huh. My -- JJ: They were calling each other wetbacks, or...? FN: No, the people that were already established in the little town like, for example, us. We were established more than the ones coming in, and that’s another thing 11 �that happens, you know. Every time somebody gets established, even though you come from that same root, now you’re turning around and putting them down. Before we came, you know, my mother crossed El Rio Grande. She was almost drowning, and she was about seven years old. So how they came across is illegally, but then, you know, a lot of people forget. You know, it’s like, “Oh, no, I’m a citizen,” but how did everybody start? I mean, Jesus, they say, “Well, [00:20:00] who’s an American?” We’re all American, and the Native American Indians are more American than any American that ever has set foot here, so there’s a thing, you know, within the Mexicanos where they say, “(Spanish).” [00:20:14] What do you mean, Americano? “(Spanish).” [00:20:17] Well, geez, you know, I’m an American, and I’m more American than the (Spanish) [00:20:24] who crossed the sea. If I crossed a river, they crossed an ocean. They crossed from the other side of the world. But even within us, you know, we have been taught to respect more that comes from way, way far from the other side of the world. And then, you know, here we are discriminating the people that have roots, that have a history, that have an origin. So it’s a lot of internal scars that we have, weaknesses that we have, that we [00:21:00] have to supersede by educating ourselves because if you don’t have education, your outlook is very, very limited. And you become very prejudiced, very greedy, advantageous, and it just goes on and on. It’s a vicious cycle where you destroy your own nest. You know, they say we are the only species that soil our nest, and that’s because, you know, the ones that have the power to do so much are polluting the world at a faster rate than has ever been known. We are destroying 12 �the waters, the air, the earth, so what does that mean? We’re destroying our own nest because -- what can we do without Mother Earth? And again, you know, that goes back to [00:22:00] religion. When did religion become male? So that’s very imbalanced already, the philosophy of the world. “Oh, men run the world.” Well, geez, you know, the world is female, so once men become superior or even -- like I said, some women are more male supremist than men. If a woman is inferior, she can be divided. She can be raped. She can be abused. She can be polluted. So can the earth. The earth can be divided, sold here, prostituted, polluted, but what’s even more sadder is the concept that you can do both to the mothers and then Mother Earth. Well, then all the children that come of women are vulnerable for exploitation. [00:23:00] I mean, even in the Bible, what is one of the reasons to baptize? Because in the Catholic churches, for example, and I don’t accept this, if you’re born from woman, from a vagina, you’re dirty. So you have to be baptized and cleansed. Why do we accept that? If you see a child, this infant -- you’re holding it, and you’re thinking like, “Where’s the mortal sin?” But we accept it or we don’t understand it, and so we have baptisms, and we go along with the show and have a big party and get drunk. And it’s an excuse to party, but we’re not understanding exactly what we are accepting. So I don’t know where we’re going with this, but anyway -JJ: No, because you mentioned Mother Earth and trying to see [00:24:00] the Indigenous people, so I was going to ask for your other worldviews also and things like that. So where does this come from? 13 �FN: The taking over of patriarchal religion destroyed the Indigenous Native religions because they were based on respect for Mother Earth. If they did something, they would say, “Well, if we organize this way or we manage this way --” because the land was owned communally at one time. And so their thinking was, “If we do this, how is it going to affect the next seven generations?” So you can’t think like that in our modern world because you’re going to make profit to hell if you’re going to kill your own kids in the next 10 generations. You don’t care. You’re going to make money. You’re going to profit, so it’s hard [00:25:00] for us to think, “Well, if I put these pesticides into this plant, it’s going to kill the bug right now, and it’s going to grow a big crop. And I’m going to have all this.” And then you say, “Well, what does it do to the human body? What does it do to the animals around? What does it do to the birds?” And in that mentality, you’re going to make a profit. You don’t care. You don’t care if it’s going to kill thousands of birds, if it’s going to pollute the water, if it’s going to ruin people’s kidneys, if it’s going to kill children, or it’s going to cause asthma for the next 10 -I mean, the mentality’s so -- JJ: Okay, but where do you begin thinking like this, you personally? FN: I personally -- well, because like I said, spirituality is something that [00:26:00] needs to flourish in all of us. JJ: But I mean, when did you start thinking about spirituality and Mother Earth? Was that, I mean, from birth, or...? FN: Oh, no. At one time, I was very, very Catholic, although I questioned a lot of things, because I was brought up -- like I said, my mother was the one that found 14 �sanctuary in Catholic, so I can respect that to some extent, she needed that. So we were brought up very Catholic by my mother because my father was gone. My father was out of the picture. I mean, he would come in and out and -JJ: And what do you mean? He just left? FN: Well, no, he worked and then -- JJ: But he wasn’t around? FN: He really wasn’t around. JJ: So where did he hang out at? FN: At the bars. JJ: At the bars? Okay. Did he have a drinking problem or just -- FN: Yeah, but we called -- it was a man thing to do. JJ: A man thing to do, okay. FN: But it wasn’t called alcoholism. [00:27:00] And then -- JJ: So he drank every day, or just on weekends or...? FN: I don’t know because I was too young. I was the second youngest, but -- JJ: Okay, but he did go to the bars and to -- FN: Oh, yeah, but my oldest brothers and sisters -- maybe they don’t want to remember, but like I said, he lacked in being a responsible parent, what I think should be a responsible -- or even just to yourself where you don’t abuse other people. Anyway, so -- JJ: So you don’t -- FN: -- I was brought up in the Catholic religion, and I had a lot of questions. “How could this infant have mortal sin,” you know, was one of my questions when I was 15 �very, very young. But then I would see -- you know, my mother was very principled. She was very honest. She was very devoted to her family, her children. She loved us all. Even though we were all very different, she never discriminated [00:28:00] or favored one over the other, although she did hold that thing that -- if you were a woman, you had to make the beds. (laughter) She had that, you know? It was ingrained already, but in other respects, she was an incredible woman that -JJ: So you had to be a cook or something like that if you were a woman? FN: Yeah, you had to know how to make tortillas because who was going to love you if you didn’t know how to make tortillas? And then she was -- in the religion, you can’t help but get a lot of this same male supremacy sense. You know, we didn’t bow down to a female God. We bowed down to a male God only. So I became very religious up to the point where when I was already in 11th, 12th grade, I didn’t know how I was going to get out of the house. I wanted to get out of the house, but I knew that to get married would be not for me. If I ran away from the house, where would I end up? [00:29:00] How would I live? So I -- JJ: Because of your mom or because of your dad, or...? FN: Well, because I started thinking. JJ: Because you started thinking, okay. FN: Because my mother said if I ran away, she was going to put me in juvenile, so that was going to be a history of going into -- JJ: You started challenging weakness? 16 �FN: Mm-hmm. She was very, very stern, and she was my biggest enemy. But then now, I think -- because I wanted to run around like crazy, you know? I mean, and everybody does. When you’re young, you just want to cut loose, but you don’t understand the responsibility of freedom. You don’t understand the responsibility of liberty, and are real naive, so she had a good control on me. She used to say I was the worst one of all the family because I used to question things a lot, so in a way, I’m very grateful that she -- JJ: Did she tell you that directly at a certain point? FN: [00:30:00] What did she -- JJ: When did she tell you that? FN: Tell me what? JJ: That you were the worst one? FN: Oh, just in talking -- when I started getting a little bit better because when I was by the age of 16, 17, she used to say, “(Spanish).” [00:30:16] But basically, because I questioned everything -- you know, she would say, “(Spanish).” [00:30:26] And I would say, “(Spanish)?” [00:30:30] Oh, my God, it was like, “How could I even come up with a question like that?” Or, you know, when I wanted to go out, she would say, “(Spanish),” [00:30:46] and I was so mad. And then, you know, she would just -- sometimes I think I caused fear in her because I would say, “Well, I don’t want any kids, you know.” “(Spanish)?” [00:31:00] “You know, I don’t even want to bother with that,” and I was shocking, I guess, to her. And sometimes I feel bad because I caused her a lot of grief, but she was very, very strong and very principled and very high morals. And that, I learned 17 �from her. So like I said, I was in 12th grade, and I even thought of becoming a nun. JJ: What school did you go to? What school was this? FN: Let’s see. I went to Miguel Hidalgo in elementary, and we never knew who Miguel Hidalgo was. I had picked up a book and started learning who he was, so when I transferred to a Catholic school for two years, I was very proud to say in seventh grade that I came from Miguel Hidalgo. And most of the school that I was at -- you know, they looked down at you because, “That’s dirt, you know, you come from.” But I thought geez, you know, it was a Catholic school. [00:32:00] They would uphold somebody like Miguel Hidalgo, you know, who fought within the religion, and no, it wasn’t like that. JJ: Yeah, who was Miguel Hidalgo? FN: (Spanish)? [00:32:10] JJ: Who was he? FN: He was, in history, a priest that stood up for the common good -- he was a communist, I guess you could say, you know -- and equality within the religion itself. Just because you were a Mexican didn’t mean you couldn’t be a priest or an archbishop or whatever. And I think that was mainly what I remember in history, you know, that he fought for the Indigenous people to be dignified and to be respected. So it didn’t go well in Catholic school. JJ: You wanted to be a nun. FN: [00:33:00] Well, at that time, I was really out of bounds, you know. JJ: Out of bounds? 18 �FN: Yeah, I rebelled, I guess, a lot, and those were probably the most trying years for my mother. But what I first told you -- the reason I wanted to go to Catholic school is because I also sensed that there was a (Spanish) [00:33:27] like you were going to be doomed to go to another public school on the other side of the tracks. And it didn’t look very good because when the principal from Barbara Worth came and gave a whole spiel on more or less the routine of what it was to go to the other side of the tracks to a place called Barbara Worth, the main questions that came from us in my peer group was, “Well, you know, what if you play hooky? What’s going to happen?” And all they talked about [00:34:00] was, “What if you offended the rules? What would happen?” And so, you know, of course, they would tell you, “Well, you’ll be punished for this. This is the punishment that’s going to happen.” And I kept thinking, “Well, why are they just talking about that?” And there was also another reason. You know, I was a real big flirt, and I heard that the girls at Barbara Worth were going to sort of kick my ass because I was flirting with their boyfriends or whatever, so I thought, “Oh, my God, I don’t want to go over there and get, you know, beat up.” So I told my mother, “I want to go to Catholic school,” because, you know, she was a hard worker. And she goes, “(Spanish)!” [00:34:42] You know, she thought I was wanting to be a nun from then, I guess. She thought I was, you know, very Catholic, but I had my personal intentions. But even then, I was curious about, you know, the difference, and I did [00:35:00] have ambitions to get out of the house somehow. But I didn’t know, so I figured, “Explore, you know? Adventure into unknown territory.” So then I did, and then I went to high school. And I still 19 �didn’t know how I was going to get out of the house, so I figured that I could become a nun. And then you read the story of Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, you know. JJ: Who is she? I don’t know her. FN: She was a person that had a lot of chances to get married. She had admirers, but she chose not to. And she became a nun, and I think mostly because she was a writer. She was a poet, and you couldn’t be both. It was very difficult to be both a poet or an artist, a writer, and be married because when you get married, you’re supposed to hang on or be subject to be controlled by your [00:36:00] male partner. So I think that that was very significant about her, but I wanted to become a nun because I wanted to get out of the house and under the control of my mother. And that was my reason, you know. It -- JJ: Now, she didn’t control you physically. It was just her -- FN: No, physically, I didn’t go to wherever I wanted. I wanted to be out on the streets, but she kept me home. I mean, I couldn’t go out of the house -- JJ: Oh, okay, I see. FN: -- at 12:00 of midnight and ride around in a motorcycle or whatever you all do, (laughter) but I did try. So luckily, EOP came around, and not only that -- JJ: What’s EOP? FN: Educational Opportunity Programs, and it was through the efforts of Johnson’s war on poverty. But of course, behind that was the Civil Rights Movement; people that gave up so much, you know, that [00:37:00] dared to say, “I’m human. I have dignity.” And so many people that gave up their lives and gave 20 �up so much so that I could go to school, and so that’s how I got into school. But also, what was ironic is that I had an older sister who became a registered nurse, probably the first one in the family or the whole Clan de Nuñez -JJ: What was her name? FN: Rosa. Probably in the whole nation, she was the first registered nurse, (laughter) but the reason she got into nursing school was because she was going to be like my mother, a nurse aid. Got into the hospital working, and she was taking care of this patient who was a ranchero. And this ranchero knew all of the Nuñez clan that worked in the fields. I mean, my father came from a [00:38:00] family of 12, so -- JJ: He came from a family of 12, and there was 11 children too with -- FN: Yeah he had, with my mother, eleven children, but he had a big family. JJ: So there was a big clan in that area? FN: Huge, so -- JJ: In Imperial Valley, okay. Are they still there? FN: A lot of them are, and a lot of them have moved into LA and further on up San Jose. So anyway, this ranchero knew all of the (Spanish) [00:38:34] and about four or three sisters over there. And when he found out my sister was working there as a nurse aid, out of somewhere, this ranchero who had a lot to do with the exploitation of labor -- I mean, because you weren’t paid. I mean, the profit that they made was never compared to the wages that were paid. [00:39:00] He asked if she wanted to be a real nurse; I think that was the term, real nurse. And my sister, I guess, probably didn’t really -- maybe she knew a little bit more, and 21 �she said yes. In other words, a registered nurse. Not just a nurse aid because, you know, you have more responsibilities as a registered nurse, so you have to be more educated in terms of administering medication and side effects and reactions and what to do, and reporting to the doctor and keeping maintenance. And he sent her to school, and he put it in his will before he died -- he was dying -- that her education was going to get paid regardless whether he was around or not. And the family abided by that, and these were the oppressors, you could say; the people that, you know, took advantage of cheap labor. JJ: You’re talking about the ranchero FN: Yes, this ranchero [00:40:00] I don’t know his name, but -- JJ: Did you look at him as the oppressor at that time, or no, you didn’t know that -- FN: Oh, no, but I mean, when you start learning how the Imperial Valley -- I didn’t know about the history of the Imperial Valley, you know, how the land was occupied -- JJ: What do you mean? FN: -- how the land was controlled by only blancos JJ: Okay, occupied meaning that it used to be -- FN: That the land was there for people to use and make use of. You know, if you walked around a piece of land, you could own it, but then those that had horses used the horse to claim the land and then shot the ones that were walking, which was mainly Mexicanos, you know? That’s the history that I know of. And then at one time, they did have lawyers coming in from out of town, and I think some of 22 �’em were hanged before they got into town because they were in defense of the common [00:41:00] good. So yeah, I -JJ: So Rosa’s education was being paid for? FN: Yeah, my education was paid for with the lives of so many people. Any educational opportunities was what it came out to be. But as far as how I become spiritual or aspired to the spiritual is through education, and now this education was not just in a classroom. A lot of our education in those days, especially when you and I were young, was outside, you know, in the (Spanish), [00:41:45] in the study groups that we had to understand the situation better. Later on in life, you know, it took -- and I’m talking about [00:42:00] my retirement now. When I was in my fifties, I started going back to school as a hobby because I love education. I love, you know, this curiosity that I have, right, so I took philosophy, the psychology of women, and the Old Testament and the New Testament, and art. Oil painting, watercolor, you know, whatever, and so that’s when I started getting into mythology. And then I came across Carl Jung, and oh, my world changed. It was like I fell in love with this person. JJ: Who is Carl Jung? FN: Carl Jung is a psychologist, and he clashed with Freud because Freud was very dogmatic. I mean, Freud was talking about penis envy, and he was talking about, you know, knowing the mind. [00:43:00] You could call it playing on our weaknesses and misinformation of male supremacy, and Carl Jung couldn’t go along with him, and they had a breakup. But I think what Freud brought to the 23 �front was the aspect of dreaming, you know, how important dreams are, and then Carl Jung took it to a -JJ: [Another?] -- FN: -- more explainable way, and Joseph Campbell too. I mean, Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung were very much -- JJ: Similar? FN: -- the same, uh-huh. The respect for the big dream, the acknowledgement that the little dream -- you know, as an individual, how you can use dreams, omens, or -- a way to prevent further damage, or a way to aspire to higher goals. But the big dream is like the [00:44:00] collective consciousness, and the building of a better world instead of the building of a world where you’re going to destroy it due to greed, to putting profit ahead, you know, of -- JJ: So are you more into it because the social or the mental health of it -- because you were into nursing, and these are kind of the same philos-- I mean, they’re into psychology, right? FN: Mm-hmm. Well, one of the reasons -- when I was very young, I always wanted to be an artist, an actor. But my father, in this way, was practical. He says, “(Spanish).” [00:44:42] And I would think, “God, you know, I guess the concept of starving artist for the...” So I always saw, you know, that I had to have a profession where I could eat and be comfortable, and [00:45:00] then I had my older sister, Rosa, as an example of the feeling that you can depend on yourself and not have to bow down to anyone else. So I always wanted that, and I never wanted to get married. And I never wanted to have children, and I never wanted 24 �to go back to work in the fields. And maybe the reason -- because, you know, you’re very badly paid. JJ: Because you did work in -- FN: In the fields, yeah. JJ: -- the fields for yourself for how long? FN: Only when I was basically young. I think I started when I was in seventh grade. I worked with a family member, and I used to get the boxes of the (Spanish), [00:45:48] but she says, “(Spanish).” [00:45:50] You know, told me, “You let the family name down,” so -- JJ: So you had to work hard, eh? FN: Unloading boxes, you know, up there on the trucks and [00:46:00] stuff, but it was sort of not out of a great need -- JJ: Because that is that culture, right? You’re there, and you know it’s hard work, but somebody’s putting even more pressure on you to do it faster and -- FN: Uh-huh. But in a way, it wasn’t out of great need, you know, because the money that I did make, I used for clothes to go to school. And the other thing that I did when I made my first big money according to those days -- I actually promised that I was going to give to the church too, and I remember putting 20 dollars in the basket, a 20-dollar bill. In 1964, that’s a lot of money, tons of money, but I did it. And at that moment, it was like a promise to myself that when you say something -- that’s what I learned from my mother -- [00:47:00] your word is very, very precious. And it’s not something that you mess around with, so when you 25 �give your word, if you don’t, you know, go through with it, what kind of a human are you? So she really put that into me. JJ: So you’re an artist? FN: Well, an artist at heart, but I became a registered nurse for practical reasons. JJ: Right, but what type of artist? I mean -- FN: (laughter) Well, I always wanted to be an actor, and I love art. You know, I go to this group, and I say, “I just love art. I love artists, you know,” and that’s usually my intro. JJ: But what type of art? FN: What type of art? JJ: Because I mean, [00:48:00] I’m not that, you know, [endeared by?] art, but I mean, I kind of -- FN: What happened with me with art too is that I never really took it serious, and I’m talking about drawing and painting and stuff. So when I was taking classes in oil painting -- you know, you start getting into understanding who Da Vinci was and Picasso, Diego. And then you read a little bit of the history. You know, Diego was a communist. Frida was a communist. Picasso was a communist, and you’re thinking, “Well, geez, you know, artists are supposed to be apolitical.” You know, that’s the understanding that comes across. Andy Warhol, for example, became very famous, and you’re thinking, “Well, all he did was a bunch of prints of a tomato soup can or Marilyn Monroe in different colors.” So you don’t understand, and you’re thinking, “Well, what’s the big deal, you know?” And so then you start [00:49:00] reading, and again, here comes education, that he 26 �appealed to the manufacturing of goods. So he appealed to the whimsical, the upper class; you know, the manufacture of goods. And so now, I look at those prints -- for example, Marilyn Monroe -- and say, “Okay, I got to get my boobs fixed. Oh, I want a pink shoe, a yellow shoe, blue shoes.” And again, you know, it’s like what I brought up earlier. You baptize your kid when they’re infants because they have mortal sin, and you really don’t understand it, but you have a big party. So, you know, now you look at these pictures, and somewhere somehow in the background, you say, “I have pink shoes, but now I need blue shoes.” And do you need them, or is it just this consumerism that we have gotten into? You know, it’s like a [00:50:00] infection, you know, that has taken us to this barrage of commercials. If we invested more time into education than in commercials, can you imagine where we would be? This country supposedly is one of the most richest countries in the world, and yet our education is at a very low level. Our health is at a very low level, and the processing of food -- we don’t understand what we’re doing to our children feeding them potato chips. All of the hormones that go into beef, antibiotics to keep ’em from rotting -- I didn’t know what veal was. I’ve never had it because it was always so expensive, but I always wondered. And when I read what veal is -- you know, you put a little cow in [00:51:00] a box, and you don’t let it move, but you inject it with antibiotics the whole time so that it doesn’t rot. So then this meat is what you eat, and it’s tender and everything, you know, what they say about veal. And you’re thinking, “Oh, you know, how can you eat that,” understanding the background. And this 27 �is why education is so precious. It’s incredibly precious, and to survive, to thrive, you have to educate yourself. JJ: So you went to that high school. What high school was this? FN: I went to, I’m sorry, Brawley Union High School. JJ: And then how -- FN: I went to Our Lady of the Sacred Heart School, but I remember one time doing a paper, and I put Our Lady of the Sacred Heart. But I didn’t know it and I misspelled it, and I put Our Lady of the Scared Heart. And I did it unconsciously, [00:52:00] but now I wonder -- you know, because well, first of all, spelling, right? But I remember the nun getting up there in front and just lecturing us about disrespect, and I was, the whole time, wondering why was she going on and on. Well, it was based on the title of my paper, Our Lady of the Scared Heart. But yeah, from Sacred Heart, I went to Brawley Union High School. And then from Brawley Union High School, I was able to get into what they call San Diego State College in those days. And then it was changed to San Diego State University. JJ: Right. There was a lot happening at San Diego State University over there at that time. Alurista was there, right? FN: Yes. JJ: And then -- FN: Nationalism at its highest peak. JJ: Okay, well, explain who he was and what he -- FN: Alurista -- JJ: Because I met him in Denver, but I didn’t know -- 28 �FN: -- as far as I understand, was a -- JJ: [00:53:00] -- too much about him. FN: He was from Tijuana, then he was able to go to high school here in the United States. And then he got into San Diego State, and he became a poet and read up a little bit on Aztec history. And well, at that time, he was the know-it-all on culture, so -- JJ: So know-it-all meaning -- FN: Meaning that -- JJ: -- he was well-known? FN: -- the younger ones that were coming in, you know, used to think, “Well, geez, you know, he knows a lot.” JJ: And didn’t he come up with the concept of Aztlán, or...? FN: Well, I guess, yeah, but when you -- JJ: But he was a know-it-all of Aztec -- FN: Yeah, he was probably the one that knew the most at that time, and we thought - but that’s a whole other area to cover. But did you [00:54:00] want to go into that now? JJ: Just briefly if you know. FN: Yeah, he became a poet. And because we knew him personally, we didn’t really swallow everything. I mean, at least I didn’t, and I know my friend, Sylvia, who was my hitchhiking buddy -- we ventured out of the box. I mean, as it is, we ventured out of the box when we left our homes. Then, you know, we get into San Diego State, and we venture out of the box when everybody’s in the high on 29 �nationalism to the point where it almost becomes fascist, you know? Everybody goes, “(Spanish).” [00:54:39] And you go, “Wait a minute. You know, here we go again, the ingroup thing.” And so Sylvia Romero and I came together at some point when we first started San Diego State. As a matter of fact, I heard from her that she thought I was just a (Spanish), [00:54:58] you know, [00:55:00] from Brawley. JJ: What’s a (Spanish)? [00:55:01] I’m sorry. FN: A (Spanish) [00:55:02] is a very rough, I guess, character that paints their face a lot, and is very cool and very rough. This person can be very rough, but yet she’s very controlled by men. That’s what I think, you know. They have a tendency to want to be, you know, themselves, but then somewhere, it gets -once they have children or once they get into drugs, that stops. So she thought I was a (Spanish). [00:55:39] And then one time, she was rooming with my friend, Maria Sanchez, who was from my hometown, and I was all dressed up. We had gone to a fraternity party, me and our school friend, Henrietta, and I was all dressed up. JJ: Who was your fraternity? FN: It was a fraternity, the [Gabachos?], you know? JJ: Oh, the [00:56:00] Gabachos, yeah. FN: Uh-huh, and that’s because it’s known as -- JJ: The Gabachos is what? FN: The Gabachos? Anglos. JJ: Anglos, okay. 30 �FN: And it was known as a party school, so hey, I wanted to find out, you know? I didn’t care. I mean, I wanted to explore, so we went to it. And I was all dressed up, and I was waiting for Maria Sanchez to come -- I don’t know where she was at -- and Sylvia was there. And she kept looking at me, and I thought I was -after a while, I said, “You know, I better go because I don’t know what time she’s going to be in, but tell her I dropped by.” We lived in the Olmeca dorms at San Diego State. And so from then on, she had a different impression of me, so then that’s how we started hitchhiking and how we started sharing our views to some extent. JJ: Hitchhiking where? FN: To San Francisco. JJ: Okay, right before that? FN: Uh-huh, and then she was also with me -- JJ: What year was this that you did that? FN: Oh, probably 1969 -- JJ: Sixty-nine. FN: -- 1970, something like that. As a matter of fact, we got picked up by Cesar Chavez in his cart. [00:57:00] Oh, but she was the one that was in Denver, Colorado with me to the Denver youth conference that Corky Gonzales -- when I met you. JJ: Okay, but this -- what was the Denver conference about? Which one do you mean? FN: The Denver conference -- what was it about? 31 �JJ: Because for us, that was a big, you know -- FN: Oh, geez, I had no idea. I mean, first of all, I thought I had gotten out of the box when I had left my home, but I was just going to go get my nursing degree and go work as a nurse and have my place. I always wanted a bunch of cats, and that was -- you know, be independent and have a bunch of cats in the house. That was my dream. And so we get there to San Diego State, and I never was even in an organization, first of all, because my mother couldn’t really afford -like I said, she had tight reins on me [00:58:00] for the longest time. And I think she did it because I was probably the most wild one, so I couldn’t even be -maybe I would’ve pushed it, but I wasn’t in any volleyball teams or any athlete teams outside of schools and no organizations at all, nothing. So I was introduced to San Diego State, and they had this MAYA program, Mexican American Youth Association. And I thought, “Wow, what’s an organization? You know, what do they do,” this, you know, curiosity because I got the sense that because of people’s struggles, I was able to get into school. That was one of my initial understandings, so I felt an obligation to this organization. And then through them, I got to go to the Denver conference, and it was a youth conference. And I really had no idea what it was about expect that it was this man called [00:59:00] Corky Gonzales who had this poem, but you know, even with that -- JJ: What was the poem? FN: Yo soy Joaquín. JJ: Yo soy Joaquín, okay. 32 �FN: Which was very, very powerful, but still, I had a sense of being left out. And yet, it was a sense of pride. JJ: He also was a boxer at one time, right? FN: Yes. But basically, what was emphasized was the respect, the dignity, the power of the male image. But I still thought I had a chance, you know, because it still gave me pride. Because, you know, being from that culture, that background, I identified with it on an equal basis, although I didn’t sense it too much from the poem until years later. I go back and read it, then I go, “Whoa, where’s the women,” you know? (laughter) But either way, it was a step just like MAYA was a step into being proud of my identity. [01:00:00] You know, in school, I was known as Phyllis [Nunns?], and I became Felícitas Nuñez. And I was always like, “God, you know, why did my mother give me this name? You know, who has a name like that?” And now, it was like, “Whoa, my name is Felícitas,” and I wasn’t embarrassed or ashamed of it. So we go to the Denver, Colorado conference, and oh, my God, it was immense. It was like being in an ocean. JJ: And what year was this? FN: Was it 1969? JJ: Sixty-nine or ’68. FN: Sixty-nine. JJ: Or ’69. FN: And that was my first introduction to a massive -- JJ: Who was there, and -- FN: Who was there? 33 �JJ: -- what kind of population? FN: Basically Mexicanos that I knew of, and that’s where I discovered [01:01:00] that my cousin, Manuel Delgado -- because I saw him on film getting beat up. The concept of Third World hadn’t entered into my life yet, and that’s how I connected with my cousin into the Third World and started hitchhiking to San Francisco. JJ: Mm-hmm. He got beat up, you said. What do you mean? FN: He was one of the leaders in the Third World at Berkeley; you know, students fighting for -- JJ: What’s his name again? FN: -- recognition. Manuel Delgado, and he also put out a book called The Last Chicano. JJ: The Last Chicano. FN: So he -- JJ: So he was getting beat up by the police? FN: Uh-huh. JJ: Oh, he did. FN: Yeah, he did by the police, but that’s how I recognized him at that conference. And one of the persons that was there already that I got to know later was Manuel Gomez. JJ: And who was he? FN: He was also at Berkeley, and he knew my cousin. So anyway, it was -- JJ: And who were some of the other groups that were there? 34 �FN: The other groups? People [01:02:00] I didn’t know. There was a lot of students. And I remember we were sitting down, and Alurista was there, the great poet, I guess. And these young girls came -- JJ: That’s where I met him. I didn’t -- FN: “Oh, Alurista!” And we’re looking like, “What’s wrong with them?” You know, they looked like kids that were very excited by this guy that we knew, and we were like, “What the hell’s going on here,” you know? (laughter) But that was them from the outside and us from the inside, you know, having a different view or, you know, sense of saying, “What’s the big ruckus about,” right? But I think most of the people there were Mexicanos from all over. Very, very exciting, but I guess, you know, what caught my eye was the Young Lords. Oh, and talking about, you know, Sylvia and I going out of the boxes from our house and then into an organization, and then into Denver -- well, at Denver, I do recall, you know, that the people from San Diego wanted to [01:03:00] stay in a little group. And Sylvia had this, I think, sense of also exploring because we didn’t stay with a group. I mean, it was like, “Hey, you know, keep connected,” but this was a time to just explore. And I remember them going, you know, like this, and we were just going, “Hey!” (laughs) JJ: Who was they? FN: I think I remember -- JJ: Some of the Young Lords? We were doing that, or no? FN: No, the ones from San Diego State. JJ: Oh, from San Diego State telling you -- 35 �FN: Yeah, and -- JJ: -- “Come onto our group.” FN: -- we were just waving to them, “Bye,” you know. And I remember sitting next to one of the Young Lords, and he called himself Che because he says the police were after him, and he didn’t want to say his real name. And we’re in the picture. He’s in the picture with me and -- JJ: Oh, that’s him? Okay. FN: Maybe I should’ve brought that book or -- it’s all worn out. JJ: No, you can bring it here later. We’ll get that later. FN: But what really, really caught my eye was you. [01:04:00] JJ: Cut this. (laughs) FN: No, you can’t cut this. I had never seen a human like you. I mean, you were white, and your features were Negroid, and then you had blue eyes. And then with the purple beret that you wore, I just -- “What the hell is this,” you know? (laughter) I mean, it was almost repulsed, and then attraction at the same time. It was an incredible -- I don’t know. To me, it was the highlight of the whole Denver conference. And of course, probably a lot of other women fell for you at the same time, but that’s what I remember very significantly. Later on in talking to -Iris Morales? JJ: In New York? FN: Uh-huh. JJ: Yeah, Iris Morales, okay. FN: Uh-huh. She said that [01:05:00] at the heighth of -- and I remember there was -- 36 �JJ: Because she was there too. I didn’t know that until today. FN: -- fist fights because you had the nationalists fighting the internationalists, and the concept was the class struggle. And the ones from Berkeley were more exposed to the third world concept of class struggle, (Spanish) [01:05:25] then you had the other ones that were real Mexicanos. “Oh, no, we have to stay with (Spanish), [01:05:28] and our women have to be with us,” and you know, that kind of thinking, but that happened. And what was the worst part is, again, the ingroup, the limiting, the exclusiveness that comes around. And Iris says that she had forgotten or maybe put it out of her mind because it was so painful to think about it or even try to think about it that the Young Lords were told to get [01:06:00] rid of the brothers that were dark. JJ: Okay, and let me just make sure that we get this. Iris Morales is from the -- FN: From the New York -- JJ: -- New York Young Lords, okay. FN: And she -- JJ: And now, you said about getting rid of the brothers that were dark -- FN: That were Black, that looked -- JJ: Who was told that? FN: The Young Lords from New York. JJ: Oh, were told to get rid of the -- FN: Or get them out of the conference because they weren’t the right color. They were too dark. JJ: Oh, at the conference, you said? 37 �FN: Denver conference. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that there was some -- okay, so there was -- FN: And she said that -- JJ: Because there was two conferences. Maybe they were at the second one. FN: Oh, maybe that was the second conference. JJ: They were at the second conference because the first one, I think, was maybe Chicago Young Lords at that time. FN: Did you guys have any -- JJ: But I mean, she was there too. Like you said, she was there, but then there was the next -- we went to the second conference there the following year in ’69. So we did go to that, and then there was one in ’68. Was there -- FN: I don’t remember that one in ’68. JJ: Okay, but maybe that was in ’70 that they went to. FN: Mm-hmm. [01:07:00] So that was just an example of, you know, how limited our views are that Iris said, “You know, how could we tell our Black brothers to leave the conference?” And (Spanish); [01:07:13] you know, brown, or -- JJ: Yeah, I wasn’t aware of that. So that happened in -- FN: That happened. JJ: -- what, probably the ’70s? FN: Probably. JJ: And again, I’m not sure if that -- FN: But Iris could bring it up. JJ: But she did say that that happened? 38 �FN: Yeah, so they left. They all left. JJ: But who was telling ’em to leave the conference? FN: I guess the leaders who were organizing the conference. She could tell you more, but the -- JJ: Okay. Like you said, there’s racism within our communities. FN: There’s racism within the family. I mean, when you have a child that’s lighter, you’re going to -- you know, it happens. You know, the one that light is always told how beautiful she or he is compared to the darker ones. JJ: Right, [01:08:00] that is -- FN: But that’s what I mean. We carry the scars so deep. JJ: Right, because my mother was excited. She says I’m going to be a lawyer because I’m light-skinned, and I told her, “Well, when they go to court...” (laughs) But -- FN: Uh-huh, you went to court too. So yeah, that’s what Iris remembers, and I -- JJ: And the conference was very -- you know, it impacted us. How did it go for -- FN: Oh, we came back as MEchA, which was, in a way, a good concept because it was uniting all of the school organizations in the universities. And at the same time, it started taking away the autonomy. You know, if you’re moving your fingers, you don’t have to move your feet and vice versa. But when it’s all under one control of heading, everybody’s [01:09:00] got to move, and you got to balance it. You know, “Yes and no, yes and no.” But what happens is the MEchAs got controlled by more of the administration coming from the institution. JJ: Can you explain to me -- what is MEchA? I mean, what is it? 39 �FN: MEchA’s Movimiento Estudíantil Chicano de Aztlán. JJ: Aztlán, okay. And so you came up with that concept, or other people -- FN: No, we went back with that concept of the -- JJ: But why? Was there a MEchA group there already, or no? FN: No, we were MAYA. JJ: You were MAYA, but you turned into MEchA. FN: Uh-huh, and then there was -- JJ: So MAYA turned into MEchA? FN: Uh-huh. All of the autonomous organizations in the universities had their own names like -- JJ: So MEchA was a coalition name? FN: Mm-hmm, yes, like an umbrella. JJ: Like an umbrella, yeah, okay. FN: But at the same time, they get -- JJ: So what were some of the other groups? What other -- FN: You know what? I don’t remember, but -- JJ: Okay, but there were a lot of [01:10:00] autonomous groups -- FN: Mm-hmm, there was a lot of the -- JJ: -- and then MEchA became the umbrella? FN: Mm-hmm. But the autonomous groups were, I think, more united in our concept of political consciousness, collective consciousness. Later on with MEchA, it becomes more watered down, and maybe because of the times too, you know. JJ: Collective consciousness. What does that mean? 40 �FN: Collective consciousness? That all of us wanted to do good for the greater, and - JJ: It becomes watered down as that -- FN: Watered down to that -- it becomes more under the control of institutionalized administration. You know -- JJ: So the school itself? FN: -- now, it’s limited. “No, you can’t strike. No, you can’t protest.” It was like a -- JJ: So the schools come in, they give you a little money, and then they start to intrude? Or am I putting words in your mouth? FN: No, actually, MEchA -- [01:11:00] well, it’s a way of getting funds from the school too, you know, but -- JJ: So -- go ahead, I’m sorry. [What were you saying?]? FN: No, I just think that to some extent, it got weakened when it became MEchA in general, you know, as opposed to giving everybody their autonomy. And yet, having that understanding that we are all there to bridge from higher education to the community -- because one of the strongest concepts we had was to always keep that bridge open and enforced where the community and the higher echelons of education have that connection. You know, but MEchA seemed to lose weakness along with everything else, though, because look at what happened in the late ’60s and the ’70s after all of that protesting of civil rights and stuff. We did get more opportunities. We were able [01:12:00] to progress. I mean, I was able to get a job. Now, some people have master’s, probably even PhDs, and they can’t find a job. So, you know, things seem to get worse, and 41 �you know, the education has slacked off. And I’m talking about not just classroom education, but education of the collective consciousness where we keep together, you know, that commonality of doing social justice. So -JJ: And it was vibrant at that time. FN: Oh, it was at its heighths because of the Civil Rights Movement. It had such an impact. And you know, there’s a book by bell hooks that I have not read, but that I have heard of. She explains how the hippie movement -- [01:13:00] that was very significant for me. It also had a very big impact on me because it was talking about even closer to Mother Earth style that I think we all need. But somehow, it started getting very -- the Civil Rights Movement had that approach of, you know, doing things under nonviolence. Cesar Chavez was incredibly strong in that, you know, to bring social justice -- JJ: And you said you remember him. FN: Oh, yeah. I mean, he led a lot of people, but I’m just talking about in general of -what happened to our movement is that drugs completely invaded every single organization down to the communities, and then the image of the (Spanish) [01:13:52] started taking over. You know, from the civil rights, it went into -- the Black Panthers came from there, the Brown Berets, [01:14:00] and it was like this big, macho stance that it became so testosterone. You know, we started adopting this imbalance within the movement that could’ve been more progressive if we had kept balance with what you can call feminine energy or that energy that Cesar Chavez had or that Gandhi had or Mother Teresa had. You know, that energy of nurturing was sort of pushed to the side, and this other 42 �forcefulness took place that went along with the institution that we have in government, you know. JJ: So you felt that this new movement that was being created, the New Left, the Brown Berets, the Black Panthers, the Young Lords, and all that -- FN: Later -- JJ: -- was just a macho movement. [01:15:00] And -- FN: Uh-huh, became a macho movement, and I’m not saying it was that consciously. I’m saying that because we lack education and critical analysis. Critical analysis is so essential to the way we act because you start saying, “Well, wait a minute. What did I do?” Again, you know, “If I do this today, how is it going to affect seven generations ahead?” We don’t think like that, so the fact that you come out as a big macho and forceful -- you know, what is this effect going to have on your children, on elderlies looking at you on television or a movie or whatever? We really have to understand what we’re doing. And of course, we’re going to make mistakes, you know, but when you’re educated, it helps a little bit more. And I’m not saying that you get educated in [01:16:00] higher institutions. I’m saying education on your own where you explore, where you read on your own, where you even hold book clubs; study groups, which is about the same. But where you understand yourself, how you’re going to affect others, how it’s a global, you know, village -- I mean, I just learned about the Gregorian time and the 13 moons, that the ancients used to have a 13-month moon calendar. And it was turned into a 12-month which became a machine for making money. Twelve months, 60 minutes -- that’s what we live by. “How much money am I going to 43 �make every hour,” instead of seeing the cycle of the moon is between [01:17:00] women’s hips, you know? And that 13-month was -- you knew that the cycle of the moon moved in 28 days completely, and you were in rhythm with the cosmos. I mean, now we have to have special classes to connect us to the cosmos, you know? Take a yoga class and, you know, go over there on the other side of the world to do mantras or meditation. We all had it; it was part of our nature. This is going back to the Indigenous understanding of respect and love for nature. I told you I can talk forever. JJ: No, you’re doing fine. FN: Did you -- JJ: So -- FN: -- want a break? JJ: It’s up to you, but I don’t -- FN: No, I don’t. Watch out for that. JJ: Okay, so what about the women that were involved? There were women in the Panthers. There were women in the Brown Berets. [01:18:00] There were women in the Young Lords. FN: The Young Lords. JJ: And the -- FN: Well, you probably have a good idea. It’s that they probably felt left out, and they became a meat market. You know, it was a place to go -- yeah, you became a Brown Beret, but look at all the women that are going to come to you. (laughs) Or they have the same -- women love men in uniform whether it’s a prison 44 �uniform or a Brown Beret or a police or -- I don’t know. That’s a saying. I guess it applies to everybody in a uniform, (Spanish) [01:18:36] the lack of the respect of women taking leadership, I think, was one of the downfalls. And it continues to be a downfall because you don’t see women that are for the common good in leadership positions. Most likely, you will see women [01:19:00] as heads of -(Spanish) [01:19:01] COEs or people that are head of corporations? What -JJ: CEOs? FN: CEOs, uh-huh. And they have done testing where these women have more testosterone than the men because they have had to fight in this greedy, masculine, profit-making world, you know. They have built up more testosterone than men, and so this is the kind of woman you have in lead positions. But you don’t have that nurturing, and any man that has this nurturing is considered soft. I mean, I even remember Cesar Chavez being criticized because he was too soft. He wasn’t strong and brutal and demanding, you know. He was a soft, nurturing, inclusive -- he was incredible because I didn’t realize until a year ago that one of his favorite songs was [01:20:00] De colores. And I always thought that -- well, to me, it’s not a very romantic song. You know, most likely, I would think of it a song for kids, but to him -- from what I understand, these women that worked very, very close to him -- it was inclusive of everyone in the struggle for workers’ rights, for the dignity of workers. JJ: Because De colores means “Different colors”? FN: Everybody, and that is amazing to -- JJ: Like the colors of the rainbow. We had a rainbow coalition, so... 45 �FN: And I think that if it hadn’t have been for my understanding of what the United Farm Workers were at that time, I would have been probably very much spaced out of it completely, out of the movement, because you saw a lot of this aggressiveness, [01:21:00] a lot of disrespect, drugs. Then getting into the same pattern that exploiters get into -- you know, making money and to hell with everybody else, or just focusing on the nuclear family and to hell with everybody else; putting away the elders and, you know, having no respect for them. So the United Farm Workers, even though it’s not as strong as it used to be, had one of the greatest impacts. And probably one of my biggest foundations is -- because you could say I got to see Christ in action, you know, and that was Cesar’s image. Because when I left my house, one of my vows to myself was that I was never going to get mixed up with a Mexicano because of [01:22:00] my father’s role in my life. I said, “Man, these Mexicanos are not good, you know?” So when I saw Cesar Chavez, it was unbelievable that a man in such big power -maybe he didn’t recognize his power. Maybe he did, but he didn’t abuse it, and to me, that was so incredible. And I had that opportunity to be maybe -- oh, my God, I sat next to him, so I will go back to that story. When Sylvia and I used to hitchhike, we were going to San Francisco to party with my cousin who was in the Third World Movement, right, one of the leaders. And I remember I had these pink, plastic, hard rollers because we were going to go party, and we were outside of this little town called [Yuha?] at a gas station. It was dark. It was about [01:23:00] probably ten o’clock at night, and so I’m in the bathroom. You know, we had stopped at this bathroom, and we’re going to get out back on the 46 �freeway and start hitchhiking again. And she says, “Cesar’s here,” and I thought she was talking about some guy at San Diego State. I said, “Oh, that guy! Can he get away from us,” or something like that. So anyway, she’s serious now. She says, “No, it’s Cesar Chavez.” I said, “What?!” You know, I couldn’t believe it, so I walk out there. And sure enough, they saw us. You know, we were coming out of the bathroom, (laughter) and I had this -- you know, they’re bright pink rollers, hard plastic. And so, you know, I got so embarrassed because we had been in Delano, and had been there helping out with the boycott with [?]. And I think, you know, we helped wherever we could. You know, we had gone with the [Regretas?], who were very, very strong [01:24:00] as organizers and everything else. They were very influential there, so I was afraid that he was going to recognize me, but I guess, you know, he had too many people. He didn’t, right, but he sent one of the guards over, and he says, “Cesar wants to talk to you.” (laughter) I didn’t want to go because I was so embarrassed that the only reason we were out hitchhiking was not to do any work for the common good. We were out there to party. And so he said, “Well, what are you doing,” and I lied to him. I said, “I have a very sick aunt in Fresno that I’m going to go see.” I don’t know if he swallowed that story or not, but I sat in the backseat. I remember sitting in the backseat, and my friend, I think, also -- they had two guards and two dogs, or one dog. I don’t remember. And I remember I questioned him about [01:25:00] nonviolence. I questioned him about the Black Panthers, the violence, nonviolence, and he was, you know, very calm, very patient. And one of the things I remember him talking -- because he used to say 47 �stories are very simple to the people. And I know this because of the women that I have connected with in Coachella that he used to tell stories to be able to grasp the people’s attention at a very folk level. And he says, “I’m a leader, and I’m going up the mountain.” He says, “But when I get to the top, I can’t continue down because they will lose sight of me. I have to stay very close,” and so, you know, that’s the way he would explain it. He couldn’t do anything without the approval or acceptance or the [01:26:00] belief of the people that were supporting his philosophy. JJ: What do you mean, close to the people? You mean that was his important [thing?] -- FN: And there was no way you could just lash out in front like a big egotripper. JJ: But you were challenging his nonviolence. You mentioned the Panthers and that. FN: Yeah, because I was telling him -- JJ: Was that your frame of reference, or...? FN: Well, because people had always said, “Oh, you know, he’s too soft, and you know, we need people out there that really know how to knock teeth out and --” JJ: So at one point, you did believe in that? FN: Well, no, I would hear -- JJ: Oh, you would hear it. FN: -- and I would question, and I would think, “Well, why?” JJ: I mean, because the Panthers were more into self-defense. They weren’t really promoting violence, but -- 48 �FN: Mm-hmm. But then again, it’s a lack of education, and on a personal basis, you know these images that came across as very egoistic and very macho. [01:27:00] Look at Chicago when they arrested those seven guys and -- who was it, the guy that was the Black Panther? JJ: Oh, Bobby Seale, okay. FN: No, I don’t think it was Bobby Seale. JJ: Yeah, you mean the Chicago Eight trial? FN: Yeah, it was -- JJ: Yeah, Bobby Seale was the eighth person. FN: But he didn’t want to cooperate with the other ones. JJ: Right, he felt it was important to be separated because of -- he was being treated differently. He was an African American being treated different. He felt that, you know, because of the -- FN: See, but the way that comes out is that -- JJ: We actually were taking people downtown when he was there. FN: Again, a lack of education because the way it comes out on the media is that he just didn’t want anything to do with whities. JJ: No, absolutely not, because I remember the Panthers had a rainbow coalition. We were part of that, and so was the Young Patriots. FN: (Spanish)? [01:27:55] JJ: Hillbillies were part of that, (laughs) so -- FN: See, but -- 49 �JJ: [01:28:00] -- hillbillies wearing the rebel flag and all that of the South on their field jackets -- FN: Confederates? JJ: The Confederate flag on their field jackets were part of the rainbow coalition that Fred Hampton of Chicago -- Bobby Lee also -- organized at that time. So like you said, the message was not that [race was?] -- FN: The media portrayed them as very brutal and uneducated, and of course, the drugs infiltrated everywhere. They connected them with drugs. JJ: And you said a real good point there. The media [dug?] into that. The media, you know -- FN: So the questions that I got to ask -- JJ: Okay, so -- FN: -- Cesar Chavez was, well, how did he feel about the image of, you know, this force. And maybe not in those exact words, but I was fishing for understanding. JJ: So you’re anti-macho, but you’re still saying, [01:29:00] “How come you’re not a macho?” FN: Because I was fishing for understanding. JJ: Oh, you were fishing, so you were playing devil’s advocate at that point, which -- FN: Yeah, well, I guess to some extent -- JJ: At that time. FN: -- but he was very staunch in his explanations. I mean, he never felt challenged by me in no way. You know, here, I had these big old pink rollers on, probably -I don’t know. I just -- 50 �JJ: Okay. Do you think that also maybe his movement was more mature than these other movements that were just beginning, or -- I’m putting words in your mouth. FN: Yeah, well -- JJ: Could that have been it too, or...? FN: -- I’ll tell you I thought there was more discipline, more respect, more dignity, and there was less of this brutal image that came out. You know, [01:30:00] (laughter) with the Brown Berets and with the shades, you know, they came out - JJ: Yeah, that’s how it was. I mean -- FN: You never saw Cesar Chavez do that. JJ: -- we had people like that too because actually, what I meant -- for example, the Teatro Chicana, right? I mean, in the beginning of any organization, any movement, you know, there’s a lot of mistakes made. You know, it takes a while before it gets mature to be more inclusive, so tell me about the Teatro Chicana. How did that form? FN: You don’t want to -- JJ: Because that was -- FN: -- take a break? You don’t want to get a more comfortable chair? JJ: Yeah, I could take five seconds, so a second with the -- (break in audio) JJ: Okay, so as -- FN: So in general, I think what I want to emphasize is education is not just learned in a university or a classroom setting, that education is learning [01:31:00] the 51 �inside of -- for example, I had no knowledge about the Black Panthers being so expansive in their minds to be inclusive because the image I said that was portrayed was that they were very macho, very into just Black people. That was very, very strong. And everything else, you know, that is happening in our movements is to emphasize the need to be critical and analytic (Spanish) [01:31:39] we get a certain image of -- to understand, we really need to go further than what is presented in front of us. And that goes for everything, so to be an educated person is beyond a university credential. [01:32:00] It’s being a savant, and to be able to intuit -JJ: Savant? FN: Savant in understanding the need for people’s emotions to be interpreted in a more objective way, to have respect for intuition or your gut feelings of certain things that you don’t understand, but to explore it further; or go with your gut feeling so that you’re able to progress. JJ: Okay, so you said -- FN: So now, what happens -- one of the things that was always put out to us by the macho mentality, and I’m talking about also women in the movement, was that we were not [01:33:00] the same as the women’s liberation movement going on at that time. And -- JJ: What do you mean? FN: That, you know, we didn’t want to be identified with them, and yet, you know, they were women. We all have vaginas in common, right, going back to the common foundation. But the fact that we were a little bit more open -- we were 52 �very glad that most of the Anglos at San Diego State got the first women’s studies department recognized in the nation at San Diego State University. JJ: At San Diego State? Okay. FN: And that was outstanding, and they did have an influence on us because we were saying, “Yeah, you know, we’re all women,” and we had something very, very common there. But this whole thing was this fear. “Oh, you know what? You’re not a woman liberator. You’re not a feminist,” you know, so what is a feminist? What is the origin of feminist? [01:34:00] It means “minus faith”. Fe, faith; minus, feminine. That jump came about in the Inquisition. JJ: Oh, really? FN: When the Catholic church was dominating the Indigenous spirituality or religions, women that had knowledge of medicine, women that were independent and very intelligent, were labelled feminist because they had no faith in a patriarchal institution. So they were hunted down, tortured, burned, killed, and murdered in massive amounts to wipe out that connection to nature, that connection to the intelligence of being able to measure. Menstruation [01:35:00] is so much connected to the 13 moons in a year. It’s connected to mental -- mind, moon. It’s connected to Medusa, the goddess which stands for medicine measurement. And women of those days learned how to use -- just like today, except now it’s put in a pill form, and it’s more institutionalized from a college. Whereas at one time, it was in the hands of women who knew how to use these medicines and became savants in how to cure, how to alleviate pain in labor, but they became witches. And even the term witch means “wit”, that you had wit. And under 53 �dominating male supremist patriarchal religions, women [01:36:00] are not supposed to be intelligent. I mean, even in the Bible, Eve wanted to have intelligence, so she ate an apple. So from there, you know, we have our foundation. Whether it’s very sanctioned, the sacred and whatnot, (Spanish) [01:36:17] had that to go by. You know, “Hey, wait a minute. In the Bible, you came from my rib,” and I’m going like, “You can shove that Bible wherever because I’m not going to accept that.” So we have that foundation already in the Chicano movement, and this struggle for being respected, for having dignity -because, you know, if you enjoyed sex, you were a slut. If you didn’t have sex, you were labeled frigid or a lesbian. I mean, we got to a point where we said, “So what? You know, [01:37:00] whatever you think -- what I’m doing is I’m working towards a common good. That’s what’s important. That’s my action, and whatever you want to label me because of your personal macho attitude also coming from other women who...” Then, you know, it’s our action that’s going to speak out, so we didn’t completely go with the women movement. I mean, we stayed within our organization, but at the same time, without knowing, we had to build the space. And I think that’s why the Teatro emerged because one of the things that -JJ: The Teatro Chicana, it was called? FN: The Teatro Chicana, but it was actually -- JJ: It had different names, right? Did -- FN: Actually, all of us were Chicanas, and the Teatro comes from a bigger group because the women at that time in MEchA, you know, were feeling this sense of 54 �disunity and disrespect, so we band together. And one of the things -- we said, well, we needed to have a conference where we could [01:38:00] tell our mothers who we were, what we had become, and what we saw. And even though we didn’t want to be in the tradition of our mothers, we still wanted them to know where we were going. And also, at the same time, we developed study groups. The Woman Question was one of the books that we read. JJ: Oh, you did read The Woman Question? FN: And then from the women’s movement, we learned about the origin of the family state and private property, which gives you a good background on a different view of how all of this happened. You know, the concept of private property, the government, the inferiority of women as a whole -- so it’s a very good book that became a basis, you know, of our understanding. And we had study groups, and then we developed into our -- JJ: What was the study group or reading group? FN: A study group was where we all read the same material, [01:39:00] and then we rehashed it. “I have a different view. You have a different view,” so we try to put all these views to make sense of where our understanding takes us to have some kind of common ground. And so one of the main things is that we wanted to include our mothers, which became later on -- now as I read from an article, it was very significant because nowhere in the women’s movement did they bring the mothers into the changes that they were going through. JJ: Was this when the play -- FN: Chicana Goes to College? 55 �JJ: Chicana Goes to College, okay. FN: You know, first, we had to separate from the family, the mother, the box of being in a family and not moving from there. And then we move into the university setting, which we find is conflict with trying to adjust because we came from -- we were not college-prepared [01:40:00] students, so we were struggling in college, you know. A lot of us dropped out. And okay, then we get into the Chicano movement, and oh, my goodness -- slap in the face, you know? But we stayed, and we struggled -- JJ: What do you mean, slap? FN: Well, because of the disrespect. Like I said, you know, men could have all the sex, and they were not downgraded. But if women had a lot of sex, they were downgraded. Well, why? You know, what is this all about? So we were all in the social justice movement. We were all there for equality, you know. What was the double standard being played out, you know, within our social justice movement? So the Teatro came out of a need to -- I guess what they call today these fancy terms like a third space or sacred space maybe [01:41:00] where you can express yourself; (Spanish), [01:41:03] your doubts. Because I mean, like I said, you can be one of the most educated people, but you still make mistakes. And we will always be learning, but it’s that experience of working through errors and mistakes. It goes beyond what is learned in books, you know? It’s the experience of walking hand-in-hand with education and experience, so the Teatro became a sacred space, and I didn’t know it then. I didn’t understand the importance of it. 56 �JJ: Well, how was it formed? I mean, what was the -- FN: Well, one of the -- JJ: -- first meeting of the Teatro? FN: -- first things that I always remember is Delia Ravelo, who was the cofounder. JJ: Okay, and who was she? FN: Delia Ravelo was about two years younger than I was. She came in in 1970. I came in in 1968, [01:42:00] so I was already mature, you know. JJ: Came into the school? FN: San Diego State University. And I remember her being with [a black rose on?], and really, she didn’t want to look at me. But I sort of searched for her, and when she looked at me, it was like some kind of connection that I couldn’t understand at the time. But I knew that there was this need for these younger women to connect somehow with those of us that knew a little bit more, and then on, you know, we worked in the organization. We mopped and we swept, but we also wanted to do speeches, you know. We also had a mind -- JJ: What organization? FN: MEchA. JJ: Oh, okay, so she came into MEchA, and you met in MEchA. FN: Yeah, we were all in it, and we were very active. JJ: So the Teatro came out of MEchA? FN: Yeah, the Chicanas came out of MEchA. The Chicanas was a bigger [01:43:00] group of women. The Teatro came out of this group of women. JJ: Of the Chicanas? 57 �FN: Of Las Chicanas of San Diego State. JJ: So you have Chicanas that are separate from the other (Spanish)? [01:43:10] FN: Which other (Spanish)? [01:43:13] JJ: Because you said the Chicanas were a separate group of MEchA. FN: Well, Las Chicanas were the members of MEchA who were female, and so -- JJ: As the -- FN: -- from there, we formed the conference. And that conference is where the Teatro emerged from. JJ: Okay, from MEchA -- FN: Because (Spanish). [01:43:35] JJ: Okay, I’m thinking MEchA -- FN: (Spanish) [01:43:40] -- JJ: -- is a woman’s group, but it’s not a woman’s group. It’s everyone. MEchA’s everybody. FN: The female members of MEchA -- JJ: Okay, the female members of MEchA. FN: -- at that time. And maybe some of them weren’t even members of MEchA, but - JJ: Yeah, some of the -- FN: -- we sort of magnetized towards each other. JJ: So the female members of MEchA [01:44:00] organized this Teatro? FN: No, organized the conference. JJ: Organized the conference. 58 �FN: And from the conference, some of the women wanted, through poetry, dancing, song, Teatro, a history panel, to do this for our mothers. So all of us were in the same group, but we divided into doing different types of presentations for our mothers. We became the Teatro because -- JJ: And what was the first things that you did as a group? FN: We did Chicana Goes to College, which is the female -- JJ: The play? FN: Yeah. JJ: Can you describe something of the -- FN: She leaves the house. She gets into the university, conflicts with the university and the superstructure and racism, and then the third stage is inequality within her own movement [01:45:00] for social justice. So that was the foundation of Teatro Chicana, although I thought that it was only going to be for our mothers. But the ones that moved it forward was Delia Ravelo because as always, we were always very active in MEchA. We were organizing a recruiting conference. It’s an annual conference -- I still think it goes on -- where you get buses for all the high school students around San Diego and ship them into a big auditorium in San Diego, and then talk about recruitment and the opportunities of college and whatnot. So she says, “Well, we should do that (Spanish) [01:45:38] for the recruitment conference,” and I said, “No, that was for our mothers.” And then she says, “But it still applies because it’s pushing forward the need for education.” And so, you know, Delia Ravelo and Peggy Garcia were the ones that really pushed it, and from then on, you know, we kept [01:46:00] on. You 59 �know, then the book explains the stages of Teatro Chicana, which goes into Teatro Laboral, which goes into -JJ: Which book is that? FN: It’s called Teatro Chicana, edited by Laura Garcia, Sandra Guiterrez, and myself. JJ: Okay. That’s a recent book that came out, or...? FN: In 2008 -- JJ: Two thousand eight? FN: -- published by the University of Texas, and I guess this is where Laura comes in. JJ: Well, yeah. I mean, you can kind of describe it if you want to move [into it or?] -- FN: No, I think she can take over. JJ: Okay. Well, let me ask you then about the murals at the church. Okay, what -- FN: Well, the reason I went to Chicago -- I think I was 19 or 20, and I was going to go see you. I was going to go be with you, but that didn’t happen. (laughs) JJ: Okay. But I mean, how was that -- FN: Well, that’s part of the murals. So when [01:47:00] you and I did not become an item in more or less terms, then I still had three weeks’ vacation. And my plane ticket, you know, was for three weeks that I was going to stay in Chicago, and so since I was at that time already with the intentions of becoming a registered nurse, there was a clinic set up. And I remember -- JJ: In the -- FN: In the church, uh-huh. JJ: -- People’s Church? Okay. 60 �FN: And so I started volunteering there. I said, “You know, just because you have a personal breakup in a relationship, what does that mean?” That’s sad, you know, but still, at that time -- to me, you know, you were my first revolutionary love, so I love -- JJ: Okay, but I don’t understand. How did you come to Chicago? What was the -- FN: Because of you. Because of our revolutionary love that we had through letters. JJ: But when did we meet? FN: We met in Denver, Colorado. JJ: Oh, the Denver, Colorado conference, okay. FN: Mm-hmm. And so I started volunteering [01:48:00] at the clinic, and I -- JJ: But did we establish a relationship in Denver, Colorado? I mean, I -- FN: We connected as long distance lovers. (laughs) JJ: Oh, okay, I see. FN: Yeah, we wrote letters, and I have one of your letters. JJ: Okay, so you definitely have proof, great. (laughs) FN: Yes, so -- JJ: Okay, so we connected. So we were writing letters? FN: Yes, uh-huh. JJ: At that point, okay. But then when you came to Chicago, I was married or -- I wasn’t married legally. FN: You were with another woman -- JJ: I was with someone else. FN: -- more or less. 61 �JJ: And that’s what happened. I was a clown. FN: That and whatever, but anyway, it was a disappointment. But still, you know, our love was bigger than just you and me, right, because we claimed our love for the people. JJ: For the movement, so -- FN: So I stayed around at the clinic and volunteered, and then I had the younger Young Lords -- I guess, you know, your peer group that used to hang around. It’s Cosmo and [01:49:00] Tarzan and -- JJ: Yeah, we had -- FN: -- [Comraddy?]. JJ: -- different levels of the Young Lord. We had a local branch, a state branch, and the national branch. FN: Well, I was just with the locals that hung around the neighborhood. And what was so strange is that the Latin Kings used to hang out -- JJ: They hung out there too, uh-huh. FN: -- a lot more than the Young Lords. JJ: Yeah, they hung out more on the street. FN: But the Young Lords, like I said -- Comraddy, Tarzan, Cosmo -- were around a lot, and so we started cleaning the place, you know, because after you stay a while, you say, “God, that’s messy,” you know? You start cleaning, so we were putting things away and throwing stuff away, and we came to this closet full of paints. And I told Cosmo or -- I don’t remember who it was -- Tarzan or someone, “Hey, what’s all this,” you know? “Oh, that’s paint that they use for the 62 �church.” I said, “Oh, isn’t this going to waste, or is it going to be used?” He says, “Oh, you know, well, we thought about putting a sign --” JJ: Well, [01:50:00] it came from the hardware store. It was a donation. FN: Oh, okay. “So we were thinking of putting a sign up, ‘The Young Lords’, in front of the church.” And I said, “Well, why don’t you guys do it? The paint’s here. Do it.” And so I think somebody did volunteer. I don’t remember who it was, but they were doing the letters so crooked. I said, “You know, I can do better than that, right?” Not that I was trying to put down the brother, but -- JJ: But you were an artist. FN: No, I wasn’t an artist. I mean, I loved artists -- JJ: You were -- FN: -- and I was going to school to become a registered nurse, but I always wanted to be an actor. And so the first one we did was Che Guevara, and I said, “Well, you know, I can do the print.” And they say, “Well, how about doing this?” You know, and so then -- JJ: And then Che Guevara was right by the door, and I think it said “Young Lords Organization” or “National Young Lords”, something like that. Do you have a picture? FN: Yeah, I have a picture of it. [01:51:00] And then from there, one time -- JJ: Lower it and hold it up to the camera there for -- FN: -- you showed up. JJ: Oh, you have a picture of the church back then too. 63 �FN: Yeah. This is how I looked when we met in Denver, Colorado. This is me talking at the Denver, Colorado conference. JJ: You spoke there also? Okay. FN: Yeah, a little bit. I don’t know where this picture is. JJ: But the picture of the church is -- I mean, if it’s showing the murals. There’s none with murals. FN: Yeah, these are the murals that Carlos Flores took pictures of. Otherwise, we would have no knowledge about ’em, but -- JJ: Actually, we have some photos too of the church. FN: Oh, yeah? JJ: Both Carlos and some of -- there’s a confusion of who was there. FN: Well, he was one of the main ones taking pictures at the time with a rinky-dinky camera. Oh, yeah -- JJ: There it is. FN: -- this is it, and it doesn’t look like Che Guevara. JJ: Okay, hold on one second. FN: But that was an attempt of the image at that time [01:52:00] to put forward. JJ: Okay, bring it up a little bit. Okay, there you go. Okay, so you painted Che Guevara and “National Headquarters Young Lords Organization”? FN: Yes, uh-huh. JJ: Okay, so you painted our -- FN: So then from there, I went on -- 64 �JJ: What do you call the sign of an organization in the front? Our logo. You just painted the -- that wasn’t our logo, but that was our -- FN: Uh-huh. I didn’t paint the one in the front of the church. JJ: You didn’t paint that big logo? FN: No, I didn’t. JJ: Oh, I thought that was you. FN: No, that was somebody else. JJ: Oh, so that was Peter Clark. Peter Clark was the other muralist, okay. FN: Yeah, no, I didn’t. I -- JJ: Okay, I’m sorry. I thought that was you. Okay, but you painted Che. FN: But again, I was so mad at you, okay? You came one time, and you said, “Oh, you should do this,” and so I sort of did follow it. I did Emeterio Betances, Lolita Lebrón -- JJ: That one was specific, I remember. FN: -- Pedro Albizu Campos, and then the last one -- I said, “I’m going to do one of myself.” Not myself specifically, but -- JJ: Adelita [01:53:00] de -- FN: -- Adelita de Aztlán. JJ: Okay, but I did tell you to paint the ones -- FN: Yeah, you went around one time, and you said, “I want you to do it.” But, you know, I was going to be flying out in a couple of days, and then I was so mad at you anyways, so yeah, I said, “No, I’m leaving, you know. I can’t do it,” or whatever. So you must have gotten somebody else to do it. 65 �JJ: Oh, you didn’t paint those? FN: Not the logo in front of the church, just everything on the side. JJ: So you put the -- FN: All of the murals on the side are mine. JJ: Okay, if you could put that close to the camera -- FN: But you can’t -- it’s not a very good picture. JJ: But if you put it close, you can see the -- FN: Yeah, all of these on the side, I did; five, actually. JJ: On the side of the church. FN: And the one on the front must have been by Peter Clark, you said? JJ: Yeah, Peter Clark was the other muralist. And if you put -- FN: (Spanish)? [01:53:44] JJ: Yeah, there you go. Leave it right there. Okay, so you painted those right there on the side of the church. FN: All on the side, Emeterio Betances -- JJ: Lolita Lebrón. FN: Lolita Lebrón -- JJ: And then -- JJ: -- and Pedro Albizu [01:54:00] Campos. JJ: Right, okay, because -- FN: And that came out of an attraction for you, all of those murals. But like I said, you know, I always understood my attraction to you -- that was my first revolutionary love, so it was bigger than just the two of us. 66 �JJ: Right, and [I couldn’t be?] -- FN: And the murals were that explosion into a bigger part of us, and that’s how they got done. JJ: Okay, we definitely appreciated it. They’ve had an impact for the community, and it, you know... FN: You know, I remember people used to stop and look at them, and they’d say, “Oh, she’s a gypsy.” They didn’t know who I was. “She’s a teacher that was --” JJ: Oh, while you were painting it, you mean? FN: Yeah. And then I remember people would feed me sometimes because I mean, geez, you know, I was there with nothing. And I got fed, you know, and then -- JJ: Because we had [01:55:00] food with the breakfast program and all that stuff -- FN: And then Hilda also -- JJ: -- so everybody kind of ate. Oh, you met Hilda at that time? FN: Oh, yeah, I was living with Hilda. I stayed with Hilda. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have had a place -- JJ: Oh, was it Hilda Ignatin, or another Hilda? An older woman or a younger -- FN: No, younger. She was -- JJ: Oh, Hilda -- FN: Yeah, Hilda. JJ: -- [Torres?]. FN: That’s how come I remember her so well because without her, I wouldn’t have had a place to stay. And she allowed me to stay there, and I could come and go as I pleased, you know, so that was very helpful. 67 �JJ: So I mean, you’re coming in there talking about image. You know, we were a gang. I mean, we didn’t incubate. We went right from the gang into the political group, so we made a lot of mistakes because -- FN: Oh, we all did. JJ: -- of that. Where other groups were able to sit back and do a study group or something, we just went right into that. But I mean, can you describe the -- when you first come here, [01:56:00] I mean, you’re expecting one thing, but you still saw those people working. How were they? I mean, we’re just right out of the gang, you know, but how did you see it? FN: Well, I know they had the slogans, right, because as soon as I left the airport when I got into Chicago, I got on a taxi. Get off the taxi, see you with another woman, and then there was a parade -- Puerto Rican Day, July. And all of the slogans -- everybody was well aware of Libre Puerto Rico and -- JJ: In the neighborhood, you mean? FN: Yeah, right there at the side of the church, people were organizing for the march. And all of these community -- like Cosmo -- JJ: Oh, so we’re having a demonstration as you come in? FN: And we march. JJ: And it’s about Free Puerto Rico? FN: Mm-hmm. JJ: Is it -- FN: But it was Puerto Rican Day. It was a big parade in Chicago, and [01:56:00] we didn’t have a license or permission to be in that parade, but there we were. 68 �JJ: We got in. That’s what I remember, right. FN: Uh-huh, and I mean, I said, “Dang,” you know? JJ: And we got in, and we’re talking about Free Puerto Rico, right? FN: Yes, uh-huh. JJ: Yeah, I remember [I had a girlfriend?], and this is probably [why you remember that one?]. So you came in right at that moment as we -- FN: And I was in the parade without permission from the authorities. JJ: (laughs) And we went right in. FN: Yeah, we were in there, so I knew that there was a lot of heart. There was a lot of poverty. There was a lot of ignorance, but there was this willingness to -- JJ: Poverty? What do you mean? FN: When I went to the store on the corner, the vegetables were bad, you know, to me. Coming from an agricultural rural community where they looked so beautiful, you know, I just thought, “Wow.” And then where I stayed with Hilda -- I mean, it was infested. I remember it [01:58:00] being infested with roaches, you know, because -- JJ: You’re talking about somebody else’s house now. (laughs) FN: Well, no, the apartments that people lived in -- very crowded, very dark, and you know, dingy. JJ: But was it in that community? FN: Uh-huh. JJ: Okay, so what -- 69 �FN: Yeah, I used to walk every day to the church to continue painting, and so I remember that. And then I remember that people don’t have access to recreation, so the hydrants were open, the water hydrants. JJ: So they were open. Yeah, I -- FN: And then one time, the police came and shut ’em off twice. And the third time, they showed up with billy clubs and paddy wagons, and people got arrested and everything. I mean, that was one of the first kind -- I mean, I was sort of shocked. I was barefooted because, you know, we had been going in and out of the water, and I had been painting, you know. And I just went to get my feet cooled off, and they had the congas. You remember everybody used to play the congas? And everybody [01:59:00] came out of their little what you call ratholes, I guess, or their little houses or places that they had. And all the children playing, dancing, and running, and the mothers, you know, gossiping -- I mean, it was very, very community, and all the congas were fabulous. You know, the heartbeat of that beautiful darkness was there, and yet -- you know, so much light and water and children running, and people in the community. And the third time when the cops showed up, they showed up with all of this force, you know, and they stood in a row. And, you know, I remember they started -- I said, “What are they going to do,” you know? And so they started charging, and somebody says, “Run!” Somebody grabbed me, and we were running through the alleys in broken glass. You know, I cut my feet and [02:00:00] everything. We were hiding behind trash cans, and I remember the cops coming and banging the trash 70 �cans looking for anybody, I guess, they could get a hold of. And people did get arrested that evening, so that was an eye-opener for me. JJ: But the community -- how did they feel towards the Young Lords? FN: Well, they all looked very at peace, and they were enjoying the congas. And they were enjoying whatever little scenery there was. You know, part of the murals were already done, little skinny trees that they had. JJ: So they’re hanging out by the mural and by the church outside in the summer? Okay, and then when -- FN: So that was a very different kind of atmosphere that I hadn’t experienced because first of all, you know, those hydrants had been turned off twice, and we weren’t [02:01:00] doing wrong, you know. But then there was so much comfort and so much delight in that fountain of water spurting everywhere, and everybody got wet. It was like a cleansing, refreshing -- and that’s all they could do. I mean, we couldn’t go in a boat cruise and, you know, be waited on. I mean, that was the heighth of entertainment recreation. JJ: So the Young Lords -- you didn’t see them marching all over the place formal or anything like that. Would you say they were formal or informal, or...? FN: Well, we were very infor-- I’m saying we because I was with them, and there was nothing really formal to be about. It was just everyday trying to survive, everyday existence. And you could say, well, that was very dull, but if you didn’t make that space or [02:02:00] you didn’t bring that inspiration, it was almost like a dead silence. But it had to come out of you to put out. 71 �JJ: Yet, people were cleaning the church, you were painting murals, and there was programs in the church. FN: Oh, yeah, people were coming in to be medically assisted. JJ: How would you describe the clinic there? FN: Well, it was attending the community. JJ: I mean, did it look like a regular clinic? FN: Well, I mean, I’ve seen better places, but they were doing their best. I think the guy that was working was Martha and Alberto. JJ: Alberto Chaviro, right. He was there at the clinic. FN: Very, very devoted people. I mean, just -- JJ: He was the master of health, yeah. FN: -- good people from the heart, you know? They just weren’t doing it to show off or -- JJ: And actually, he wasn’t Puerto Rican. FN: Yeah, he was Mexicano. JJ: So Chicago had other [02:03:00] Latinos, right, not just Puerto Ricans, although we were supporting independence for Puerto Rico. So Alberto Chaviro was Mexicano. FN: (Spanish) [02:03:11] Martha. JJ: (Spanish) [02:03:12] Martha, and there were others at the clinic. FN: And that’s how I got close to them because I worked at the clinic and -- JJ: You did work at the clinic? FN: Yeah, I volunteered. 72 �JJ: Okay, but see -- FN: I mean, remember, you and I didn’t continue, but I had the opportunity to invest more time in what was going on, definitely. It probably would’ve been the same whether I had been with you or not, but I was volunteering at the clinic. And that’s how we discovered the paint when we started cleaning other areas of that church; the basement or the kitchen or the closets. And, you know, that’s how we discovered it. JJ: But it wasn’t disrespectful. I mean, it was because I was with someone else at that time. I wasn’t being disrespectful to you or to what [02:04:00] we -- you know what I’m saying? FN: No. JJ: You didn’t take it like that, but I was trying to be respectful at that time. No? FN: I don’t know. (laughs) JJ: Okay, you don’t -- FN: I just know that -- JJ: Okay, well, it didn’t work out then. FN: -- yeah, you and I did not become an item like they say. But, you know, I knew that you and I were bigger than just us. I knew that. JJ: Okay, I appreciate that. Okay, so I’m just trying to describe the clinic because I think you’re very good at describing things. And I’m trying to -- you know, if you can describe not just the clinic, but I mean, how it functioned and -- what do you recall? 73 �FN: Well, I remember Alberto being the doctor. And of course, when a patient comes in, you take their blood pressure; you know, the elementary stuff that determines, you know, their condition further on. And the people felt, you know, [02:05:00] pretty comfortable going in there. And of course, the people that attended them, you know, like Alberto and Martha -- their hearts were in it, so I think that made a big difference in the way the program was run with the very little that we had. We had more love to give than anything else, but they did their best in those conditions. JJ: What about some of the other volunteers? FN: To tell you the truth -- JJ: What type of people were they? I mean, I -- FN: They were in their -- probably not credentialed, but they did the best they could. And I don’t remember too much, the other people, to tell you the truth, but the whole spirit of that clinic was to serve and not [02:06:00] for profit, not for greed. It was to serve at a human level. JJ: In fact, did anybody pay money to come to the clinic, or...? FN: I don’t think people had money to pay. JJ: So it was a free clinic? FN: Yeah, it was a free clinic. JJ: It was a free -- now, what about the breakfast for children program? That was run out of the church too. Were you familiar with that? FN: I really didn’t get to see that. JJ: So you didn’t work on that one? 74 �FN: No. JJ: Okay, but you did some there with the mural. They were talking about a daycare center at that time. Did you -- FN: No. JJ: No, you didn’t see that, did you? FN: No, I basically -- JJ: That was later because when you -- FN: -- was just at the clinic and stayed at the church. JJ: But you were there when it was just getting painted and started in the neighborhood clinic. They were painting the inside too. That’s why we got the paint. There were murals inside too, no? FN: I don’t remember seeing murals inside. JJ: Okay, that was Peter Clark. He put in -- FN: Yes, because then when I did the side, then the front came on later. JJ: [02:07:00] Oh, that came later. Okay, that’s the “Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón” sign, but you did Che. FN: Yeah, I did Che -- JJ: You definitely did Che. FN: -- and the other five murals. JJ: Yeah, you did five murals, okay, the other murals. Okay, you didn’t do the People’s Church one. There was a People’s Church one too. That was Peter? FN: Correct. 75 �JJ: Okay, all right. Okay, so you go back from there. And then where did you get involved after that? You’re still with the Teatro, or no? FN: Oh, yeah, the Teatro went on for 12 years after we got out of the college, and then we got into the community. And we were able to keep it for 12 years. And then after that, I moved up north, and of course, later come back and reconnect. But Delia and I never disconnected, Delia Ravelo, so that’s when the idea started brewing -- [02:08:00] and I guess Laura can tell you this. You know, she took a class, and she wrote this article about her participation or her days in Teatro, and people got very interested. And then Suzanne Oboler told her, you know, that that could be published. And then she showed up at a reunion, and then that’s when we all started getting the idea, “Well, we should all do the same and put a book together.” But of course, like everybody else has their dreams, Delia Ravelo and I were going to be writers. When her last child left from her house to go to college, that’s when we were going to start, but Delia got very sick with stage four cancer, and she struggled. She was able to -- JJ: She’s still alive, or no? FN: No. She was able to live another 18 months, and during that time, this idea started building up. She was able to write her story, [02:09:00] and I was able to help her because she was very debilitated. You know, but Laura actually started moving us sooner than what we expected because of that. But Delia passed away, and of course, you know, I was very angry because we were supposed to be writers, and her last child was going out of the house. But I will never -- she’s 76 �always with me. And from that first time that I saw her -- she’s always with me, well, in a way. (laughs) JJ: Okay, yeah. Well, thank you very much. END OF VIDEO FILE 77 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1320e625755122a54af70fdda9498da3.mp4 3ee752ee86225f6f0002d893b1c202d8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Felícitas Nuñez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Nunez_Felicitas Title A name given to the resource Felícitas Nuñez interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Nuñez, Felícitas Description An account of the resource Felícitas Nuñez lives in Bermuda Dunes, California. She and Delia Ravelo are co-founders of Teatro de Las Chicanas. The concept began when women of Movimiento Estudíantil Chicano de Aztlán (MEChA) brought their mothers to a university setting. There they organized a “Seminario de Chicanas” so that the mothers could understand what their daughters were going through. They wrote and performed “Chicana Goes to College.” And as a result of the audience’s positive response, Ms. Nuñez and Ms. Ravelo formed the Teatro de Las Chicanas. In the beginning years the core group consisted of just Ms. Ravelo and Ms. Nuñez, but many young women participated in the Teatro. Though working in San Diego, they were influenced by the leftist political ideals of the San Francisco Mime Troupe. They also united with the objectives of the Chicano Movement which included, among other things, social justice, bilingual education, and unionization. It also went further to address women’s equality. Several of the plays written and performed by the Teatro as well as the memories of their core members have been published in Teatro Chicana: A Collective Memoir and Selected Plays (2008). Most of the women who joined the Teatro came from farming towns throughout California and most of them were the first of their families to attend college. Around the early part of June 1969, Ms. Nuñez traveled to Chicago and met with the Young Lords who were transforming themselves from a local Puerto Rican gang into a human rights movement. One month earlier, the Young Lords had occupied the administration building of McCormick Theological Seminary (today on the campus of DePaul University) with 350 neighborhood residents and held it for an entire week. The Young Lords won all their demands, including $50,000 seed money for two free health clinics, $25,000 to open up the People’s Law Office which still operates today, and $650,000 to be invested by the seminary in low-income housing. One week earlier, the Young Lords had occupied a huge United Methodist Church on Dayton and Armitage, which they were in the process of transforming to become the Young Lords National Headquarters. The church would also house their Free Community Day Care Center, Free Dental and Health Clinic, and Free Breakfast for Children Program. All these programs were modeled after the Black Panther Party programs, of which the Young Lords had recently also connected via Fred Hampton’s Rainbow Coalition that Field Marshall Bobby Lee had also helped to broker. After the take-over of the church, the Young Lords quickly made amends. They did not want to disrupt any church service. When asked by the press if the Young Lords were going to allow the church to hold service, Mr. Jiménez quickly responded, “that it was not really a take over as the doors were now open to everyone, and that he and other Young Lords were planning on attending the services, being led by Rev. Bruce Johnson.” Some members of the congregation left but the Young Lords started meetings with the rest of the congregation, and together they designed the People’s Church symbol and produced a button that showed chains being broken. The Young Lords were cleaning up the church and adding needed paint when Ms. Nuñez arrived and volunteered to organize a group of muralists. Inside the church, Ron Clark and others were painting a mural of Puerto Rican history in the gymnasium. Outside, Ms. Nuñez’s group painted the Young Lords symbol of ”Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón” or “I have Puerto Rico in my Heart.” This lettering was in purple, with a green map of Puerto Rico, and a brown fist holding a rifle. (It had been designed by Ralph “Spaghetti” Rivera and Mr. Jiménez. The first buttons were printed at the Green Duc Button Company at Lake Street and Halsted). Other murals that Ms. Nuñez and her volunteers painted on the church walls were images of Adelita, Emiliano Zapata, Lolita Lebrón, and Don Pedro Albizu Campos. Someone else, probably Ron Clark, painted Che Guevara by the side entrance to the office, with the lettering “Young Lords National Headquarters.” These wonderful murals could not be overlooked in Lincoln Park. Not only were they featured in the news, but Lincoln Park residents would drive by and stop in to see the various programs and activities, making People’s Church the center of the Lincoln Park neighborhood. By then most Puerto Ricans had been forced out of Lincoln Park and there was also plenty of room for others to join the Young Lords Movement. Hispanos representing all Latino nations joined the Young Lords, including members of other minorities, middle class individuals, workers, the very poor, and students. The Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition was formed and Mr. Jiménez was voted president. The Northside Cooperative Ministry, of which Rev. Bruce Johnson was a prominent member, was also established during this period, and it supported the Poor People’s Coalition and the Young Lords. Just sixty days before Mark Clark and Fred Hampton were shot to death, assassinated in a predawn raid led by State’s attorney Edward Hanrahan, Rev. Bruce Johnson and his wife Eugenia were also discovered in their beds stabbed multiple times, in a cold case that remains unsolved. The Eulogy was given at the church with Young Lords fully participating, providing security and traffic control. There was also a spontaneous march through the Lincoln Park Community where Rev. Bruce Johnson worked with the poor. Ms. Nuñez left Chicago unaware of the impact she had made in the Puerto Rican community and in Lincoln Park. The Teatro Chicana did participate in the impromptu Lincoln Park Camp in Michigan in the 2000 and the Young Lords 40th Anniversary celebration in Chicago in 2008. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d47852304adeca681255418b5a5f566.pdf 872e44295af7e3a29e0fb69deb5a05ab PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Luis Neris Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/14/2012 Runtime: 01:25:37 Biography and Description Oral history of Luis Neris, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on December 14, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so like I said, we’re going to start with just some basic stuff. If you could -LUIS NERIS: Sure. JJ: -- tell me your name, and where you were born, and your, like, date of birth. LN: Okay. My name is Luis Neris, I was born in Chicago, May 24th, 1965. And, yeah -- JJ: Where were you born, please? LN: I’m sorry? JJ: Where you were born, you said? LN: In Chicago. JJ: But I mean, where -- LN: Oh, hospital. It was Belmont Community Hospital. I don’t know if it exists anymore. (laughs) But, you know, we lived in -- you know, I’m just a product of some parents that came on that wave, came looking for jobs here. And (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JJ: Tell me what your -- LN: -- here! JJ: Tell me your parents’ name, and -- LN: Papi is -- JJ: -- and where were you living at the time, when you were born? 1 �LN: Papi’s name is Luis Neris, also, Angel Luis Neris, and then Mami is Loida Gorgas. And they met here in Chicago. They married in -- [00:01:00] I was... You know, we lived on Halsted and Armitage, and every time we pass by the building, we don’t go by there much, I mean, it’s a different neighborhood from what I remember. And we lived right on the corner of Halsted and Armitage. 2022 North Halsted. Right across the street from that big old empty lot that I remember. And we lived there from -- JJ: People’s Park, we used to call that People’s Park. LN: People’s Park? I didn’t know that. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, it was. It used to be... LN: But we went to Santa Teresa Church, as a matter of fact, my wife and my kids still go there. We live way up on the north side now, by O’Hare Airport, but we still go there, because we still know some of the people from the neighborhood that still go there. Carmen Uvides still goes there, JJ: Oh, Carmen Uvides is still there? LN: [armen (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) is still there, she looks just as good as always. And, you know, I stay in touch with -- JJ: Who were some of the other people there? LN: Carmen Vasquez. [Fabian Pagan?] used to go there. [00:02:00] I think he retired and he moved to Florida, but there’s just, you know. And all these people, they know my dad, too. JJ: Yeah. And now, they were part of that Council Number Nine (inaudible) LN: They were there, yeah. 2 �JJ: Is that still existing, or (inaudible) LN: I don’t know about Council Number Nine. I don’t know if it exists. But yeah, they were always involved. And my grandfather was Francisco Marcano, and Paulita Marcano, they were my grandparents, and (inaudible). He’s the one that -- he organized a lot of -- he had an organization called Parents and Childrens, Padres y Hijos, and he had softball teams for adults, he started softball for girls, back, you know, now, I have my daughter playing on travel softball, but Marcano started some of those programs. And he started the Little League Baseball, as well, for, you know, he called it “La Liga ‘Pampers’.” (laughter) And I do have some of those photos, and I apologize I didn’t bring ’em with you, but I will make sure [00:03:00] you get ’em. Marcano, you know, we grew up on Halsted Street. You know, from there, we just moved down the street, and then, you know, we didn’t have money to buy property. Although my mom always wanted to buy. But my daddy, he’s always had this dream about coming to work here, make the money, go back to Puerto Rico. So he never invested, you know, and my mom wanted him to, but he just didn’t. But we always lived on Halsted, we rented -- JJ: I didn’t get his name and her name, your mom [or?] -- LN: Yeah, I said his name is Luis Neris, same as mine. JJ: Oh, [same as your name?]. LN: And then mami’s Loida. Loida Gorgas. JJ: Okay, no, that’s right, you’re right, I’m sorry. LN: And then we moved over by, it was Waller High School, right on Howe and Armitage. And we lived there for a while, but then we moved back to Halsted 3 �Street, I mean, and it was just -- I remember the neighborhood, and kind of, like, it was a lot of Puerto Ricans, and I remember in the summer, there was a pump JJ: What do you mean, a lot of Puerto Ricans? What do you mean? LN: Lotta Puerto Ricans living on the block. JJ: Lot, like [00:04:00] 40 percent, 30 percent? LN: Oh, no, no, I would say, like, a majority of them. I would say, like, 90 percent. I mean, when we lived on Halsted, Halsted and Wisconsin, and in the summers it was like, it was so nice, you see all these people outside, you know, just hanging out and talking. I mean, it was, after a hard day’s work they’re outside, and some people are playing the guitarra, I mean, I remember Perfecto Nieves playing the guitarra across the street, and then another foursome playing dominos, you know, while he played the guitarra, and the women over here talking, and the kids running all over the street. And in the summers, when it got really hot, I remember the water pump, right on Wisconsin and Halsted. They would put, like, a tire around it, with a board (laughs) so the water could shoot up, and somebody would, you know, come and open. I mean, Halsted Street is pretty busy now, but back then there wasn’t a lot of traffic, you know, and it was just... But that’s how I remember the neighborhood. [00:05:00] And then Marcano, I call him Marcano, but he pretty much raised my mom. He’s my mom’s stepfather. But that’s the grandfather I know. And he had all these organizations, and he had baseball leagues, and all the neighborhood kids played in it, it was Little League Baseball, he had the softball for girls. And he 4 �was always with a camera on. I mean, he would take a camera everywhere. And that’s when -- he would document so much, and it’s a shame that he’s not part of this piece, because he would have so much information. But before he passed away, he would tell me, he would say, “Hey, Luisi--” He called me Luisito, everybody in the family called me Luisito. And he’s like, “Mira, Luisito,” and he knew I was in school, and for whatever reason, he left everything to me. And I have all those tapes, and he left me a lot of pictures, and those are the ones that I didn’t bring. But I will make sure you get ’em, because I think they’re part of what you’re trying to docu-- what should be documented. [00:06:00] It’s a forgotten part. It’s a shame that it was just erased, but, you know, thankful that we have people like yourselves and [Grant?] and people who are interested in making sure that we don’t forget about what happened and how Puerto Ricans did live there, and... JJ: Why don’t you want us to forget it? LN: I think it’s important. I mean, it’s part of history. It’s important for people to know that we -- where we came from, where we lived, some of the struggles, I think, that a lot of -- my parents had... JJ: Like, what were they? LN: Well, you know, job unfairness. Just because of who they were, because they were Puerto Ricans. You know, I’m a little bit younger, but even now, I mean, I’ve had my experiences at work. I mean, I’m a government employee, and when I started -- JJ: [00:07:00] What do you do for the government? 5 �LN: I’m a federal investigator. JJ: Oh, okay. LN: Yeah. We investigate fraud against, you know, government programs. JJ: Oh, that’s good. That’s good. LN: And I’ve been doing that for a while, but, you know, and I can understand -- I mean, I see some of the stuff that I’ve experienced, and I can’t imagine what my parents, or even people back then, you know, experienced, as far as racial tensions or racial discrimination. It should be about who you are, not where you came from, not the color of your skin. I mean, Puerto Ricans come in all shapes and sizes and colors. Marcano, my grandfather, was Black. I mean, dark skin, afro. My grandfather, my dad’s father, was Black. I have a cousin who’s whiteskin, blue eyes, blonde hair. (laughs) I mean, they run the gamut, and I think it’s important that what happened in Humboldt -- not in Humboldt Park, in Lincoln Park, is documented, because [00:08:00] it’s gone. And we almost got pushed out. We almost didn’t, we did get pushed out, we got pushed west. I lived in Lincoln Park till 1991, ’92... JJ: Well, what do you mean, pushed out? Do you -- LN: Well, I think they kept getting pushed west. Prices -- JJ: How -- oh, prices. Oh. LN: Prices, rent prices were expensive. And the few Puerto Ricans who did buy, who had the property there, eventually sold, because they were -- some of them were not very well-educated. And they were smart enough to buy property, so if you buy a property, and I’m just throwing numbers out here, for 10,000 dollars, and 6 �then 10 years later, somebody comes and offers you 100, for them, it’s like, “Oh my God,” you know, “this is a good return on my investment, I’m outta here! Here, take my property!” And then that’s taken down, and then you build up a nice condominium, which is what started happening. And [00:09:00] so, either they got -- you know, a lot of people got bought out, if they had a building that was rented. “Sorry,” you know, “I sold the building,” and the new owner’s not gonna want these folks, because he’s gonna raise the rent, he wants it. And so a lot of the rents went up, properties were bought, and where else could you go? You had to go somewhere where you could afford to live. And I think people started migrating west. Wicker Park, you know, all those neighborhoods. And a lot of Puerto Ricans ended up in Humboldt Park as a result. I can’t go back any further than that, because I was born in the ’60s, but I do remember that. I do remember going to school at Newberry School, I went to Newberry, and then I eventually went to Waller -JJ: What was that like? What was Newberry like? LN: Newberry was a mix. It was, you know, it was a hood! (laughs) You know, you had Puerto Ricans and you had Blacks, and you had your other Hispanic, you had some Mexicans, but yeah, that was the school. I mean, [00:10:00] and it was kinda like -- JJ: It was a “hood,” what do you mean? What do you mean? LN: It was a neighborhood, where, you know, it’s just a term that we use, and... JJ: I know it has meaning to it, I’m just trying to find out what it means to you. 7 �LN: To me, the meaning that I give it is, it’s like, mi casa. You know? It’s where I grew up. It’s my neighborhood. And, you know, (laughs) “hood” is short for neighborhood, but that’s where, I believe... That’s what I call it. My “hood,” is because that’s where I grew up, that’s where I lived for most of my young life. And that’s where Newberry was. Newberry, I remember the clínica, right, on Halsted. It was a Infant and Welfare Society. And right next door there was a big ol’ empty parking lot. Not empty. It was a parking lot for the clinic. And right next to that was, Marcano had this club, this nightclub. JJ: Right. ’Cause there was Planned Parenthood, they [00:11:00] put that up later. LN: I think, yeah, that was much later. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) But that wasn’t Marcano. Marcano (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No, that was not Marcano. JJ: So he had, like, a social club? LN: He had a social club. And these pictures that I have, he gave them to me, you know, there’s pictures of that club, there’s pictures of people you may even know. He has got video -- I brought it, because I wanted you to have it. He gave it to me before he passed away, wanted to make sure I kept it. ’Cause he always said, “I know you’re gonna do something good with it.” And I couldn’t get rid of ’em, you know, I was going through it the other day, and he’s got notes in there, you know, it’s like, stuff that he would write, and he... JJ: Now, you saw some of it, or...? 8 �LN: Yeah, exac-- You know, he would take the video and then he would make us sit down and watch this thing. And I remember, you know, he would put the reel-toreel, and we would sit there, and it was kind of cool because it’s like, you know those old movies where you see the (imitates a sound effect) (laughs) and you could see, there no sound, but you can hear that. That was the sound, I remember. And it’s all black and white. And I would see these movies over and over and over, and sometimes, you know, there are [00:12:00] some of them of us, when we were kids, and he would document us, and then, he would document everything. I mean, he would document whatever parade he had, excuse me, whatever event he had, he would take pictures, he had it all. And my grandmother always got mad at him, ’cause he would always store this stuff, and it would just, like. And it would start off as a little bit here, and then it would grow, and then he would move it (inaudible). I mean, it just expanded. And a lot of the pictures that he gave me, after he passed away, I made a video of him and my grandmother, and some of the things -- some of the pictures that he gave me, and I put it on a DVD and I sent it to my grandmother and my mom. Kinda like, as a memory of him. There’s a lot of pictures I didn’t put in there because, you know, there were other people that -- and I wanted it to be something of him. JJ: So we have pictures of him, too, then. LN: You do have pictures of him, you will have pictures of him. And I know when you see ’em, you’ll remember. And so, he gave me a bunch of [00:13:00] tapes, and he noticed that a lot of the -- and you’ll see, the reel-to-reel, it’s very fine, because it’s so old. But what he did, and this was his way of documen-- trying to 9 �secure it, he put it on the wall, and then he took a video camera, and he was, like, trying to, with a VHS tape. So there’s also a VHS tape of that film in here. So you’ll have it, and, you know, you guys are more than welcome to take it, and I’m sure I’ll put it in good hands. JJ: And did you need the original, or do you want us to...? LN: Whatever I give you, that’s what I’m gonna give you. I -- JJ: So then we just send you the copies? LN: Yeah. JJ: Whatever we want? LN: Yeah, I mean, whichever way is easiest for you. Because, I mean, I don’t have the capability of playing some of this stuff -- JJ: No, no, [we’ll do it there?] and then we’ll (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: And then the other tapes that he has on here is -- JJ: To the address you gave us? LN: Yes. JJ: Okay. LN: The recording, this was before cassettes, you know, remember the reel-to-reel things? It’s a little tape. __: Yeah. JJ: Oh, yeah. LN: And there was a lot of [00:14:00] stuff like that. I mean, the guy was amazing, and I was telling my wife the other day, he would make the camellos -- JJ: I definitely remember his name, I just (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 10 �LN: He would do camellos. JJ: Been 40-some years, I can’t -- LN: And he would sit at home and we would run out of wire hangers because he was always inventing things. And he made horses--camels out of wire, and then he would have my grandmother drape it, you know, to make it look like a camel. And he would do this, like, you know, his little tweezers and his little tools, and now you see it, like, you see Santa’s snowmen outside of people’s lawns, out of the wire, I’m like, you know, Marcano, he used to do this stuff! The guy was a visionary. But he wanted to make sure that, you know, the Puerto Ricans there had somewhere to go. You know, I belonged to a boys club, boys and girls club in Chicago, when I got here. JJ: At that [00:15:00] time? LN: Well -- JJ: Was it the boys club on -- LN: There was a boys club, Eisenberg’s Boys Club. Right on... Orchard and Willow. JJ: Exactly, yeah. LN: And kinda like what Marcano had was, you know, similar to a boys club, but for adults, you know? He had all this organizations, all these people there, and they were all involved. I mean, there’s -- he -- JJ: So he had a sports social club (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: A sports social club. JJ: [I don’t wanna?] -- I shouldn’t label things, but (inaudible) LN: Well... 11 �JJ: Is that what he was, or [am I--?]? LN: Yep. Mm-hmm. Exacto. And he had a lot of people, and he -- JJ: Was it for the Caballeros de San Juan or was it just (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? LN: He was part -- no, it was apart from Caballeros de San Juan, it was kinda -- I don’t know if it was something similar, but I remember he had -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) social clubs, there was a social club... LN: I think he belonged to all those clubs. He did. (laughs) And I have a younger brother who was also born in Chicago, he’s living in Puerto Rico, and I have a younger sister, also, who was born in Chicago. And all the family -- JJ: What’s their names? I didn’t get their names. LN: [00:16:00] Osvaldo Neris and Ivelisse Neris. But they moved with my mom to Puerto Rico years ago. But, you know, all my family, the Gorgas family, was there on Halsted at one time or another. JJ: Borjas? LN: Gorgas. JJ: Gorgas, okay. All right. LN: Yeah. G-O-R-G-A-S, Gorgas. Strange last name. Both of my last names, I think, are. (laughs) Pero, yeah, it was mostly Puerto Ricans, and I still run into people, the other day I was at the hospital with my dad, he had some surgical procedure done, and I saw, you know, a guy I grew up with, and he was waiting to get picked up, and the Uvides family, I don’t know if you heard of [Julio?] Uvides. 12 �JJ: Exactly. LN: And Carmen Uvides. JJ: They were from Council Number Nine (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, they were involved too. I mean, they did a lot, and... I think Marcano eventually named one of his leagues the Julio Uvides Baseball League, and that was for the little kids. And then he had Julio [00:17:00] Uvides Softball League. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) at that time. (inaudible) LN: And he used to have the slow-pitch softball. JJ: He was definitely a community leader. LN: And that was a lot of people, I’m telling you, [like?], Lincoln Park, I mean, he used to get permits for everything there. At Lincoln Park, the actual park, not the neighborhood, but the park. And he had permits, he knew the guys at the park district, they would -- but I remember -- I do remem-- JJ: Did he have a city [dab?] or, no, [he didn’t?]? LN: No, he didn’t. No, he didn’t. JJ: He didn’t? LN: No. JJ: But he just knew the guys at the park district. LN: Knew the guys at the park district. JJ: So he was working with the mayor at that time, then. LN: He wasn’t working with the mayor. He had the organization, and I don’t know how, I mean, I’m not a politician, but now, you know, having seen stuff that happens in the paper and how things work in Chicago -- 13 �JJ: [You gotta?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the city. Yeah. LN: You know, you gotta know somebody. And, you know, Marcano did have a lot of people in his organization. A lot of parents. And there was not a fee, I mean, Marcano didn’t charge a fee. And I think even for the kids, I think, maybe they would get uniforms, I don’t know how the whole uniform thing worked out, but when you [00:18:00] have an organization that big in a neighborhood, and... You know, it’s all about votes, you know? And I’m sure the politicians are gonna come and say “Hey,” you know, “who’s the leader here?” And they would talk to Marcano. And I do remember, you know, we had baseball bats, we had gloves, we had everything. We had boxes, and Marcano would lug it around in his big ol’ station wagon in the back, you know? Bases, everything. And so, it’s just the way, I guess, politics works (laughs) and you get the -- JJ: Yeah, exactly. That’s the way it did work. You had an organization, you were good. LN: They wanted it. Those are votes. I think they see them as votes. But he had a lot of contacts, he had a lot of connections. And I never asked him, and I don’t know how the whole -- JJ: So he never talked to you about politics, he talked to you about sports. LN: Exacto, yeah, yeah, he never pushed the politics part, yeah. JJ: So he was more [interested in?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LN: They knew that -- I think that -- I have cousins who eventually did work for the park district, and I think they worked with the ward person at the time -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Committeemen, [00:19:00] whatever. 14 �LN: Committeemen, yeah, and, you know -- JJ: [Aldermen?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: -- kinda knock on doors, and, you know, it’s just the way Chicago is. (laughs) And some of them are still working there, I think some of them retired. But Marcano, I remember, before he left to Puerto Rico, because he got older, and he’s like, you know, “I’ve had it here, I’m gone.” And he left in, I wanna say 1986, ’87? That’s when he left to Puerto Rico? JJ: What do you think he was mad about, or frustrated, or whatever? LN: Why he left? JJ: Yeah, why he went (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No, he left because he was just, you know, he was here alone. I mean, he had us, and I considered him my grandfather, I mean, I knew him my entire life, but I think he was at that stage in his life where he said, “You know what, I --” The winters were brutal here. I do remember when he left, he’s like, “You know, I can’t handle another winter here.” So he left. I mean, he’s like, he’s got a house in Puerto Rico. “I’m going back.” And that’s what he did, he went back. I don’t think he was frustrated, I mean, he loved Chicago. [00:20:00] You know, he came here. I remember the video. Again, I’m going all by memory for the video. There’s video of him coming to Chicago, and they’re saying goodbye to him in Puerto Rico, and then he’s got the camera here. I mean, he brought the camera with him. He’s documenting everything. But I don’t think there was any frustration about anything, I think it was just... He lived in the neighborhood for a long time, and I think he, mor-- 15 �JJ: Did he talk about why he documented? I mean, what was his fascination (inaudible)? LN: You know, it’s a shame that he’s not around to tell you, because, again, I was giving the example of the stuff we ran out of wire hangers. And how he would make stuff, like, out of wire hangers. The guy didn’t have an education, and I see snowmen on people’s lawns, and reindeers, out of the same thing. Maybe it’s that he saw, “This has gotta be documented somewhere.” Maybe this is what he wanted all along, to make sure that [00:21:00] the Puerto Ricans in that neighborhood, or the Puerto Ricans coming here, were not forgotten, that they lived in Lincoln Park, and then, that asides from, you know, more or less having to move out of the neighborhood for whatever reason, whether through sale, or rent increases, or whatever -- JJ: Was the moving going out -- were people moving out at the same time that he was documenting, or? LN: I don’t think so. No, I -- well, he documented when we were living there. Again, I’m going back to what I remember from what -- and you will see this. The activities, I remember something going on at a church on Armitage, between Armitage and I don’t know if it’s Bissell or Burling. It’s Burling, right? JJ: The church there? LN: Yeah, the church there. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) people’s church -- LN: People on the street, I remember, you know, being on my -- on the film, I think I’m there, I’m on my dad’s shoulders, and there’s people everywhere. I don’t 16 �know what they were shouting about, or what they were screaming -- I was a kid, you know. (laughs) And I haven’t seen the movies in a long time. But he [00:22:00] documented everything, and I think when he -- he had a restaurant, too, called El Batey Restaurant, right on Halsted and Armitage. JJ: El Batey LN: A lot of people coming through. I remember politicians coming in and getting bussed in to the back seats, where the big tables were. (laughs) You know? And they were seated, and not for nothing, but, you know, Puerto Rican women know how to cook, man, and they (inaudible). (laughter) I gain a lot of weight when every time I go to Puerto Rico, ’cause Mami takes care of me like I’m a king, and I’m like, “I can’t do this.” But they cook really good, and he had the restaurant there, so he documented a lot of that stuff. He had events there, you know? He did plays, I remember being part of the Christmas plays. He made a play called El puerco de Osvaldo en tiempo de Navidad. And he came up with the skit. JJ: “The pig of Osvaldo in the time --” LN: Yeah, “Osvaldo’s pig in the time of the holidays”, you know? And Osvaldo would go to everybody, the thing is, Abuelo would go to Osvaldo, which was my younger brother, you know. He would go to everybody’s Christmas party and eat lechón, and he had a little pig as his pet. And you know, they [00:23:00] were like, saying, “Hey, you know what! [Get away?], your time’s coming!” He’s like, “No, not this year, maybe next year.” So he would eat everybody’s roasted pig, but nobody -- like, he never, I mean, that was his pet, he would never get rid of it, 17 �like, no way. And he made stori-- and we would play ’em at the -- we would do the play at the Museum of Science and Industry. And I remember his organization also was in charge of decorating the Puerto Rican Christmas tree at the Museum of Science and Industry. And that was an event in itself. They would make the maracas. He would make the little... The big knives, machete. (laughs) When he would knit the little Puerto Rican flag, and he would make the little pavas, the little jíbaro hats, and he would put a ribbon in. The tree was decorated, I mean, I remember my grandmother used to do this stuff, ’cause they -- grandma was a decorator, and my mom, they loved decorating, they loved arrangements and stuff, and they would do all these little things for the tree, and it was a beautiful [00:24:00] tree. And then he would have people coming over during the holidays, and you know, (Spanish) [00:24:04], you know, there was a parranda, and then trying to tell people what Puerto Ricans were like. And I don’t know if you know about the Museum of Science and Industry, they have the “Christmas Around the World”, and every year they decorate a tree from each country around the world, and it’s an exhibit. I think it’s going on now, through the end of... Maybe after January. But he would document all of that stuff. And as a kid, I remember, you know, living there, and being part of this, and then eventually having to move out because, again, he didn’t own the property. He had the restaurant there, we lived upstairs. He eventually had to move somewhere else because they sold the building, he had to get rid of the restaurant. So he went to Orchard, it was on Orchard Street, 1665 North Orchard. It was between [00:25:00] North Avenue and Willow. And it was all 18 �projects that are there, it’s low-income housing. And because they were now older, you know, they got an opportunity to get an apartment that -JJ: Willow and... Orchard? LN: Willow and Orchard. JJ: Where the boys club was. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah. Well, you know, the boys club was torn down. (laughs) ’Cause they tore that boys club down, because enrollment dropped, I remember, and it was valuable property. JJ: So was that crime (inaudible)? So was that Section 8, or...? LN: The boys club? JJ: YeahI mean the -- what they built afterwards. LN: No, yeah, those were condos. JJ: They were condos? LN: Oh, yeah, they tore the boys club down and -- condos. I do remember -- JJ: [Were you?] saying you lived there, somebody lived there, right? LN: Yeah, my grandma lived there. Well, it was right on the corner, the boys club was right on the corner -- JJ: But they didn’t live in a condo. Did they, or did they live in a condo? LN: My grandparents? JJ: Yeah. LN: No, no, they lived -- well, the boys club was right on Willow and Orchard. Right on the corner. And then, the boys club had that corner lot there. The Section 8 housings that I’m talking about is behind it. So, [00:26:00] that’s where -- we 19 �could walk to the boys club from there, I remember. We would walk from the apartment to the boys club. Then, when the boys club enrollment dropped, or maybe, again, somebody was offering a lot of money, it’s prime property, they tore that down, that entire block from Orchard and Willow, almost to Laramie, or to Howe, I think Howe was the next street over. And you know what, I think it even went over to Laramie -- Larrabee, Larrabee, which is further down. And all that whole block was torn down, and they made condos, very expensive condos, I remember. And then when they tore the boys club down, we had nowhere else to go, I mean -JJ: So you went to the boys club? LN: Oh, I went to the boys club. JJ: So what happened in there, what was going on there? LN: It was more after-school activities. I remember -- JJ: And who was the population, I mean, (inaudible)? LN: Mostly African American from the Cabrini-Green homes. And then you had your few Puerto Ricans that would come in. I remember I went there, and yeah, I think the fee was, like, I don’t know, two, three bucks for the year. And we got our little card, and we would go there, play basketball, we’d go swimming. JJ: No dodgeball? LN: [00:27:00] Oh yeah, dodgeball, kickball, you name it. Softball in the back. The boys club was so big, I mean, the lot that they had, I remember there was a softball field in the back. And they would have events in the summer, like, you 20 �know, summer Olympics or something. I mean, yeah, but mostly it was African American, from Cabrini-Green and in the neighborhood, but then you had -JJ: At that time. LN: At that time. JJ: We played dodgeball, when I was growing up. LN: Oh, is that right? (laughter) And then you had your Puerto Rican -- JJ: It was more Puerto Rican then, but (inaudible) LN: Yeah. (laughter) Yeah, I eventually (inaudible) you got out! JJ: (inaudible) Cabrini-Green got pushed out to later. LN: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. That’s -- JJ: I’m sorry, I’m going off -- LN: That’s changed big time. JJ: I’m going off the time. LN: Pero, pero no, I mean, I mean, that’s what I remember. JJ: But you remember playing basketball there and that you played (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Basketball, oh yeah, absolutely, basketball, softball in the back. Again, you know, dodgeball, kickball, they had the nice swimming pool. We would go in there, they would let us in at night. I forget who we knew, or maybe one of my friends knew somebody who would open the door for us, and we would go in after hours, which was [00:28:00] kinda cool, it was just -- we had the swimming pool all to ourself. Obviously under supervision, [we didn’t?], you know, go in there by ourselves. But nothing I would admit to on tape. (laughter) Pero it was, 21 �you know, it was a good time. It was a good time, and it’s unfortunate that, you know, I mean, it is what it is. I eventually moved out, myself, ’cause it just got too expensive. After Marcano moved out, it was -- his rent there was based on his income, and because he was on Social Security, he paid, like, I think it was, like, something crazy, like, 64 bucks or something. Entonce, and I was there, I was at school at the time, I went to Columbia College. And it was just him, my grandmother -JJ: What was your major there? What was that? (laughs) LN: Communications, imagine that. (laughs) And I’m doing something completely different now. JJ: (inaudible) LN: But he, you know, he paid something crazy, and then when he moved, we had to report it. And so I reported it to the office, [00:29:00] and the rent shot up to 400 bucks, and I was there by myself. And it was okay, I mean, I delivered pizzas in the neighborhood, I mean, at O’Fame Restaurant and I did that for six, seven years, and they actually, it was pretty good money, you know. Cash money, no taxes. (laughs) JJ: Tips, you [got?] those. LN: Tips were great. I delivered mostly in the Lincoln Park area, which I knew like the back of my hand, and we would come downtown as well, and up north. And they fed me, and I worked three, four nights out of the week, I was living by myself, I’m eating pizza. I love pizza! (laughter) I wanna have pizza in the morning, you know, I wanna have pizza at night. And every night, they had food 22 �for us. So it was a good thing for me. But, you know, the 400 dollars, man, it’s like, I’m a college kid! You know? I gotta pay school, I gotta pay my own bus fare, you know, and granted, we did get some financial assistance, I got financial assistance, but it just wasn’t enough. And then, I did that, and I got a job when I graduated -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) ’cause, I mean, at that time some people, [00:30:00] I remember we got paid, like, 80 dollars a month, so... LN: Is that right? JJ: So 400 is a lot. LN: It is a lot. JJ: When they raised it to 400, [we moved?]. LN: I had to. (laughs) I had to. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, I had to. I think I stayed there for a bit, but you know, it was -- I made a little bit more money than my parents, you know, it’s like, I made about 75, 80 bucks a night, at the time, back in the ’80s, I think that was good, man. JJ: Very good. LN: For a kid, you know, working -- JJ: So this was the ’80s, ’cause you were living there in the ’80s, that’s [pretty?] -- LN: I was still living there, yeah. The ’80s. JJ: That’s pretty (inaudible). I thought that most Puerto Ricans were gone by that time, no? They just -- LN: They were. Oh, yeah, absolutely. 23 �JJ: So when was the change, did you see the change? LN: You’re absolutely -- oh yeah, I saw it. I mean, I think we were probably -- JJ: What was that like, the change, can you describe that or...? LN: I mean, we wouldn’t even venture down Halsted Street. We didn’t know anybody. You know, it wasn’t the same. I told you the story about when I was a kid, remembering the Puerto Ricans playing the guitarra, playing dominos, you know, hanging out, haciendo chiste’, [00:31:00] the kids running around, you know. There was none of that, ’cause you know, our culture, we love to enjoy everything, I think. And we go to the extreme. (laughs) You know? And we have the parrandas in there, and we go all out. And you can still see some of that in Humboldt Park, if you drive down Division Street, I’m sure you can see that in the summer. Pero, when we moved over there, to the Section 8 housing, I don’t remember any Puerto Ricans. Any Puerto Ricans. I lived on 1911. I think there’s still one family there. JJ: Halsted, or...? LN: 1911 North Halsted, which is right by Wisconsin. And the house that we lived there, it’s still there, ’cause I drove around there not too long ago. And I am willing to bet that the guy who bought it -- the guy who owned it when I was there, either his daughter or his -- somebody, they still own it. It’s still there. 1911 North Halsted. And I think that’s the only family. But it was a complete change, there was none of the hanging out outside, none of the, [00:32:00] you know, us playing against the guys from down the street, there was none of that. Because, it’s a completely different, you know, young people were moving in... 24 �JJ: Some people would think that hanging out outside would be rowdiness or something like that. LN: I don’t remember -- JJ: Was it like that, or (inaudible) LN: I don’t remember it being rowdy, not at all. No. I mean... JJ: Or at least scary, or something. LN: You know, it’s just that the people that live there, they like the music. That’s probably what they did in Puerto Rico, you know? And they just brought that here. To other people, they’re more like, “Oh, what are they doing hanging outside?” You know? But I don’t remember it ever being a problem. ’Cause it just wasn’t one night. You know? I mean, it wasn’t every night, though, ’cause people had to work. (laughs) But I remember the hanging out outside, you know, absolutely. But it wasn’t -- yeah, you’re right, people may consider it hanging out, you know, it’s not like a bunch of kids hanging out, it’s a [00:33:00] whole different world nowadays, you know. Kids hanging out outside, you know, in groups, nowadays, cannot compare to hanging out back in the day, when I was growing up, ’cause it was just kids running around, parents were outside. You know, there was, at least for the most part, at least from what I remember, I saw Mom and Dad there. Not speaking in terms of my mom and dad, but mom and dads of other kids there. Like, the couple. Nowadays, different, divorce rate, whatever. You don’t see Mom, you don’t see Dad, you just see the kid, and his buddies hanging out outside. And you can make your judgment on whatever you see there at the time, but, you know, my hanging out that I’m describing is, it was 25 �a good hanging out, you know. It wasn’t none of the, like you said, people may perceive it as being bad, but when we moved over there, it was a whole different neighborhood. I mean, it was just -- there was -JJ: Over where, to...? LN: When we moved over by the boys club, [00:34:00] by the Section 8 housing, the Halsted that I remember was pretty much gone. I mean, condos were going up, houses were being torn down. You know, different people moving in that were not Puerto Rican, people who owned the property or people who rented it. And it just, you know, it was just a different neighborhood. I mean, completely, it was transformed. But I was too young, I mean, I didn’t know. Marcano probably did. That’s probably why he documented it. Maybe he said, “This eventually will be part of something.” And, you know, you’re gonna have it in your hands, and you guys can do what you want. What I did not find, which I know I still have at home, is a bigger reel-to-reel. And I have your address, I know I’m gonna find it, ’cause we were moving some stuff around. And I got the pictures. And he wanted to document [00:35:00] everything. I don’t know why. Maybe it’s because we take pictures. I have a camera at home, I got over 20 thousand pictures of my kids, you know? (laughs) And maybe that’s just what I -- I enjoy doing it. JJ: Well, some of that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Some of that we’d probably also would like, ’cause it’s about you, I mean, this is all histories about you. [I mean?], I’m glad that we were honoring Marcano, because he definitely -- I appreciate what he was doing. 26 �LN: Yeah. JJ: I mean, as someone who’s trying to document stuff now, I appreciate what he was -- LN: I will tell you, Cha Cha, that if -- JJ: And he was a leader, he was definitely a born leader -- LN: He was a definite leader. JJ: -- in Lincoln Park (inaudible). LN: I mean, I don’t know what your budget is like, but my grandmother’s still alive. His wife. She’s in Puerto Rico. And -- JJ: We do go to Puerto Rico, I just came back from (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: If you go to Puerto Rico, let me know. I mean, she lives in Gurabo. Right next to her, right literally next to her is her son, her younger son, Junior Gorgas, Jose Gorgas. [00:36:00] And, you know, they have a lot they could tell you as well. And Abuela, although she’s a little bit older, she’s in her nineties, and she doesn’t remember what happened yesterday, she’s got an amazing memory of what happened 40, 50 years ago, you know. And I’m sure she could provide you with a lot more info as well. More about -- because, remember, I was a younger kid. I remember just, you know, being born there with the -- Papi told me that was the building, and I remember what I did as a kid on Halsted -- JJ: [No?], your generation is what we’re talking about, too, so -- LN: Oh, pero if you’re looking for further back, Abuela, and Marcano, who unfortunately passed away, Abuela would definitely have more. Because she 27 �lived through that change, and she, you know, she was a little bit older. She remembered a lot more. And -JJ: You don’t know what year they came to Chicago, do you? LN: Well, I was born in [00:37:00] ’65. I wanna say, I think my mom, she said she was 17, 18 when she had me, she wasn’t born here, she was born in Puerto Rico. I wanna say maybe in the late ’50s, it’s gotta be late ’50s. JJ: Now did they always say they lived in Lincoln Park, or did they live somewhere else before that? LN: Always Lincoln Park. Always Lincoln Park. JJ: So they came in the late ’50s to Lincoln Park. LN: As far as I remember, yes. ’Cause I remember, for a while, I don’t know if you heard of a company called [Cumings Display?]. (laughs) It’s a flower shop. And they used to work there on Halsted Street. But they lived on Ar-- my abuela lived on -- JJ: Yes, I do remember that. LN: -- on Armitage, right by Santa Teresa, right by the L. JJ: Cumings Display, okay, [that?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Cumings Display was on Halsted, it was a flower shop, and then they eventually moved downtown to Wells. I remember coming downtown with my mom and my grandmother. Maybe that’s where they got -- JJ: So they’re on Wells now? LN: They used to be, I think they closed. I mean, it’s been [00:38:00] years. Pero -- JJ: But they were by Saint Teresa’s? 28 �LN: Yeah. They were. And Abuela and Marcano, I remember them living by Santa Teresa church. JJ: You didn’t go to Saint Teresa’s. LN: Oh yeah, oh yeah. JJ: Oh, you went to Saint -- LN: To school? No. I went to the church. JJ: What was going on there? LN: Oh, Sunday mass. JJ: Oh, so you went to Sunday mass. LN: Yeah, yeah, Sunday mass. So they always lived in that neighborhood. Entonce’, when my grandparents decided to go to Puerto Rico, ’cause the winters were just too brutal here, they were still living over there at the houses on Orchard and Willow. So they always lived in Lincoln Park, from what I remember. I don’t know if they ever went -- they lived in Humboldt Park -- I don’t think -- I think they came to Lincoln Park, and that’s where they lived. And eventually, that was their last place. When they left, they went to Puerto Rico, you know, and that’s where they were until his death, and she’s still alive, she’s still kicking. 90 years old. And she looks good, [00:39:00] for her age. JJ: So they only moved because of the brutal winters, or? LN: I think, yeah -- they were retired, you know. There was nothing else here for them, they couldn’t do anything else. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [retired?]? LN: Yeah. 29 �JJ: You said that the restaurant was closed down? LN: Well, the restaurant, they sold it. JJ: Twice? LN: Because he -- well, he didn’t own the building, he sold the restaurant. I mean, he rented the restaurant, and he rented the whole building. ’Cause he had the restaurant on the first floor, and then the upstairs apartment -- JJ: And this was on what corner, again? LN: Halsted and Armitage. JJ: Right on the-- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: 1971 North Halsted was the address. JJ: Oh, 1971, okay. LN: ’Cause 1973 is [Nick’s] Bar, which is right on the corner, so we’re right next to the bar. (laughs) But yeah, good business, because, you know, the bar people would come over, and Puerto Rican food. (laughs) [Patilillo, murcia?], whatever they would make. And so he sold the -- I guess the restaurant -- they raised the rent, and he said, “I gotta go.” But he had the restaurant, [00:40:00] too. So he sold the restaurant to somebody else, and they kept it, they kept the name for a while, and then eventually they closed. Maybe ’cause they couldn’t cook as good as my mom or my grandma. (laughs) JJ: Now, you mentioned the people hung out on the corn-- on the outside, and that you were outside people, you hung around out there playing dominos and music. LN: Mm-hmm. JJ: Was there any -- how was the gang situation there? 30 �LN: I don’t remember a gang around there. I don’t know if it’s because -- my grandmother was very... She would always tell us, you know. She would always say, “Hey, don’t hang out, this --” She was always careful. Always watching out for us, you know. And I’m thankful for that because, you know, we were very vulnerable young men. But it was just the guys hanging out. I mean, we never -what I remember, I don’t remember ever having any troubles with gangs. As a younger kid, I remember, when we were on Armitage one time, I went to the store ’cause my mom sent me, and it was over there, it was a store right under the [00:41:00] L on Armitage, right before you get to Sheffield. And there was a store right by the alley, I don’t know, to get something, and I remember the Latin Kings being there. And there was Latin Kings there, and I think there was another gang up north, there was Harrison Gents over there by Larrabee, but over there on Halsted, I don’t remember ever... We didn’t venture too far from there ’cause, you know, our parents wouldn’t let us! (laughs) She was always watching us. But on Halsted Street, I don’t remember... JJ: That hangout that you’re saying was at the end of -- but by that time Lincoln Park was kind of gone. LN: Yeah. JJ: So was it kinda unstable at that time (inaudible)? LN: Yeah, I mean, I don’t remember the gangs -- JJ: But growing up, you didn’t see a lot of gang activity or anything like that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Well, when I went to high school -- 31 �JJ: [I know there were?] clubs, wearing sweaters and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I went to high school, I remember -- I went to high school, I went to Waller one year and then it turned into Lincoln Park. And I remember that. And of course, you know, you see the guys come [00:42:00] in their sweaters. I remember the black and gold sweaters, and I remember the black and white from the Unknowns, and I think Eagles would come around once in a while... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: And the Harrison Gents, which weren’t too far. You can’t compare to today, though. I mean, back then, people used to fight. Now, they shoot you. (laughs) You know? And... JJ: Right. So you can’t compare to today, and it wasn’t really... LN: I don’t think it was as -- JJ: It wasn’t really, like -- people weren’t associating with a club or something. LN: Yeah. Yeah. But just like anything else -- JJ: Is that what you’re saying? I don’t wanna put words... LN: Just like anything else, you’ll see a bunch of guys, and then there’s another, you know, you look at each other the wrong way or whatever, they don’t like you, you don’t like them. But I don’t remember -- JJ: You’re describing the later part of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, but I was just gonna tell you, I don’t remember -- 32 �JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) describing the ’80s, you’re describing the ’70s and ’80s. LN: I don’t remember the violence, you know, I remember -- and it was more like social clubs, like you said. There’s hanging out, and, I guess, for whatever, [00:43:00] you know, did they have their illegal activities? Yeah, probably. You know? I mean, it’s been around for years, you know? I don’t see why they would be any different. But, you know, it wasn’t -- at least, from where I remember, on Halsted Street, it wasn’t none of that stuff, and guys coming around -- JJ: So, (inaudible) [summarize?], so you remember it was more family-oriented, though they were outside. LN: Absolutely. Yeah. JJ: Not gang, like today, or... LN: No. No, no, no. JJ: Trafficking in drugs, or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No. I don’t remember that. And maybe, if it was around, I mean, I didn’t see it, you know. (laughs) Definitely didn’t see it. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Your family (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Nowadays, they do it out in the open market. I mean, they’ll all be out there -- JJ: -- not part of that, yeah. LN: Yeah, no, we were never part of that. JJ: Okay. You know, and I think that’s important to know, you know, people were just outside like they were in Puerto Rico, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 33 �LN: Right. Right, right, right. Yeah, and it’s not -- it wasn’t no, no, no, no. No big wild parties every time it was out there, it was kinda almost like serenading, you know? I liked to sit around at home, and it was quiet -- JJ: And you were born, you s-- so we’re talking about a period after the [00:44:00] community was there for a while, too. LN: Yes. JJ: ’Cause you’re talking about when it was a Puerto Rican community, and before that it was also an Italian and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Dude, that I didn’t know. Yeah, that -- the community was already established there. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) (laughs) LN: Yeah, that’s how -- the community was already established when we moved in. JJ: -- established when you were there. LN: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. JJ: So, since it was already established, it was more family. Is that what you’re saying, or? LN: Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of families on the block. You know? I mean, all the way from Halsted and Armitage all the way to Willow -- JJ: And [would you just describe?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: That’s where I remember the Calisto family lived. Willow and Orch-- Willow, and -- Halsted and Willow. And I think it even went further, I think when you got to North Avenue, then it started changing to the African American community. That’s more Cabrini-Green. 34 �JJ: Right. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: ’Cause you had all the projects down there. And then, but you had your African Americans right on Halsted as well. I remember a couple of families, guys that I went to school with at Newberry, you know, guys that went to school at Waller, then Lincoln Park. It was just all guys from the [00:45:00] neighborhood. But it was mostly Puerto Ricans on the block, and, you know, it was already established. It was already established, it wasn’t -- I don’t remember the transition from the other ethnic group to the Puerto Ricans. I do remember the Puerto Rican community then, you know, migrating west, or going back to Puerto Rico, wherever they went, and then the turnover to a different community. Was more white community. JJ: So there was a lot of that going on? During that -- while you were there? What year are you referring to? LN: Well, when I lived there, I was in high school, in the ’80s. JJ: Okay, the ’80, okay. LN: But it had already started to change. It had already started to change. The guys that -- I mean, I graduated from Newberry School, and then we went to Waller, Lincoln Park, and had already started to change, ’cause we had already -- we were still living on Halsted [00:46:00] and Armitage, but then in the 1980s, it started to change. I mean, I remember. But when I lived there on Halsted, it had already started to change. Now, I didn’t venture too far south on Halsted Street. Because, you know, our family was over here closer to Armitage. But there was still some people on the block. Puerto Rican families. But it did start to change. 35 �And then, when we moved over to Orchard and Willow, it was almost like, you know, after Marcano moved, I think we were probably one of the last few families to move out of there. And then it started -JJ: And this was the ’80s. LN: This was the ’80s, definitely the ’80s. Yeah. I remember we moved out [to 9th?] -- it was 1980, I graduated ’83? About ’84, ’85, ’84? Is when he eventually moved over to the homes over there. And he was there until he left. He said, you know, he’s [00:47:00] had enough, he’s gone, the winters are too brutal for him. Yeah, so that’s what I remember. The change. The change back in the mid-’80s. JJ: How did you take the change? LN: You know, I was living with my grandparents, so it’s... JJ: I mean, ’cause you grew up there, right? So you had to -- LN: Yeah, I mean, but, you know, it’s like, wherever the grandparents were going, that’s where I had to go. (laughs) You know? I mean, I didn’t -- I just had to follow where they were going. It didn’t affect me, I mean, had I wish we would’ve stayed there? Absolutely. You always wanna stay, especially if you’ve been there for years. But the community had already started to change, and it wasn’t the same thing. I mean, I would love to be able to go back in time, just for that, but as adults, and just to see how it would’ve turned out, had the community stayed with all the families there, and all the -- everybody who grew up in -[00:48:00] it would be ideal, but you know, that stuff doesn’t happen, only in movies, I think. You know? 36 �JJ: So you’re going to Waller High School during this change. How was Waller High School? You graduated from there, you said? So... LN: I did not. I graduated in ’83. What happened was, I went to Waller one year, and then it changed to Lincoln Park. And then my parents divorced -- JJ: What was that like? You know, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: To me, it was just a name change. It was a name change. I mean, the school was still the same. I remember reading an article about Waller being such a bad school, and it was so bad, you know, and I have an article at home, if you want it, I’ll make sure you get it. And the only reason I kept it is because, I remember, whoever wrote it, it was in the Tribune, I was in the paper -- JJ: That would be a good thing. LN: It was a black and white photo, I was coming out of class, and there was a photographer taking pictures and I just happened to be there. Then one of my friends -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) So you were in the-- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, one of my friends was flipping through the pages -- JJ: I definitely wanna see that. LN: And he’s like, “Hey!” And so he kept it, and he gave me the paper. [00:49:00] And so, there was an article about how bad Waller used to be, how one teacher got thrown out of a window or something, and there was always gang fights, and then, now it’s Lincoln Park, and, you know, it changed. Lincoln Park High School. And now the change. And I remember thinking, “How can a name 37 �change,” you know, “change the school so much?” You know? And eventually it did, because it’s a very -- it’s a tough school to get into now. Unless you (inaudible). But it’s -- man, oh, back then anybody could go there. But to me the change wasn’t that big of a deal, it was just Waller, and then I still saw the same students, I still saw the same teachers. Maybe eventually they got some, I don’t know, I didn’t see any big change, it was just a name change. JJ: You said before -- LN: Think it was a bad reputation, maybe. JJ: You said before that the community wasn’t really that gang type. LN: Yeah, but -- JJ: But now they’re reporting in newspapers saying that it was. LN: Well, because, no, I’m talking about Waller High School. [00:50:00] Now, remember, Waller is on -- it’s not that far from where we lived. We lived on Halsted and Armitage, to, you know -- I lived on Halsted and Wisconsin. So Halsted and Armitage, to Halsted and Wisconsin. My parents lived on Halsted and Wisconsin, my grandparents lived by the restaurant. So I remember that. Now, the school is not too far from there. So, you know -- JJ: Couple blocks. LN: Yeah, just a couple blocks. But, again, I don’t know if I just wanna believe that we had a protective layer around our block, I don’t remember anything like that. You know? Did it happen? It probably happened a block behind us. But not on the -- where I grew up in. JJ: But you didn’t see it. 38 �LN: I didn’t see it. No. I didn’t see it. And what I’m telling you about the school -- JJ: You didn’t see what the paper was describing. LN: Yeah. What I’m telling you about the school was that that’s what they reported. You know? And I don’t know whether they were talking about Cabrini-Green. I mean, listen, it’s a project, you know what projects are like, you know, you put a bunch of people in a building, what do you think they’re gonna do, you know? I mean, it’s just crazy. And -- JJ: And actually, they were bussing, but actually -- [00:51:00] not bussing, they were giving bus tickets to the people in Cabrini-Green to go to Waller. LN: Is that right? JJ: During that time. LN: Yeah? Wow. JJ: So those people didn’t even live in Waller, but they -- LN: I haven’t read the article in years, but I’m sure that that’s what they talk about, you know, about people coming into the neighborhood. Pero, you know, the stuff that I saw in high school when I went there, it’s not the stuff that I remember seeing on my block. Granted, guys did come by, we would play softball and stuff, but I don’t remember any of the -- and I think it had a lot to do, again, Marcano and Paulita, my grandparents, they were involved. I mean, they were involved in everything we did. They made sure -- I mean, I remember my abuela going to the school, and if there was something, issue, something going on in the community, Abuela was there. They knew Abuela, they knew Paulita Marcano, you know? And every time they would go -- I mean, we’re not saints, you know, 39 �we’d get into trouble at school or something, we didn’t do our homework, or my cousins [00:52:00] would get into a fight or something, Abuela was there. She was always there. And -JJ: (inaudible) Even though she wasn’t asked to man the PTA, she came in and -- LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. She was there. Oh, she was there. JJ: (laughs) (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Absolutely, yeah. She was there all the time. And my grand-- and my mom -- JJ: [And the?] other parents? Were they doing that? LN: Other parents were there too, as well. Absolutely. JJ: So the parents were actively involved in the schools. LN: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. JJ: And with their kids. Is that what you’re saying? LN: Yes. They were -- my grandmother, my mom, were there. I remember other parents as well, too. Being there. And so, maybe it was because they were so involved, and I don’t know if maybe, you know, they would stand up to anything. I mean, as a parent, you would stand up to anybody trying to come into your neighborhood and messing around with your kids’ lives. I mean, I would do it, I’m sure you would too. And I think that’s what they did. And so maybe I was just -I’m thinking about this protective layer because Abuela was there, and parents were involved, and stuff. And maybe they knew, like, “Let’s not mess around in that neighborhood.” (laughs) You know? They didn’t walk around like community watchmen, or [00:53:00] neighborhoods, or anything. They were just 40 �there. They were always involved. And on the block on Halsted, I don’t remember any -- I mean, the competitions we would get into would be like, teams from the south sides of Halsted Street against the north side, playing a game at the clínica. (laughs) You know? The clínica, where there was bases painted on the floors, and then we had -- we would play fast pitching, or we would go to Newberry and play fast pitching against [DeWall?], and, you know, like, “Hey, our team will play your team!” And it was kinda like a mini competition. But it wasn’t ever about us fighting them or anything like that. Or even outsider gangs, or the Kings, or the Gents, or whatever coming over. I think, eventually, later -- but I don’t wanna say, because I didn’t experience it. I didn’t experience none of the gangs coming on Halsted Street. The article did mention about how bad Waller High School was. But I say that because that’s what I read. It’s not what I experienced. And, again, you got people coming in [00:54:00] from everywhere, you know. I could definitely see trouble at the high school. JJ: So why do you think the newspaper would (inaudible) say something like that? Just to sell papers, or? LN: Could be. It could be. (laughs) JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: I don’t know. I don’t know why the paper -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) said, I’m just saying (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: I’ll get you the copy, but, you know, I think that -- JJ: What do you think (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 41 �LN: -- the paper did it because they wanted to document that it was a change, and the high school was changing. They said “cleaned it up”. Again, I only went there for two years, Waller one year, and then it became Lincoln Park -- JJ: And what year was that? LN: ’78. JJ: Seventy (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: ’78, ’79, ’79-80. And that’s when it was Lincoln Park. And then I moved to Puerto Rico. I graduated from a high school in Vieques, Puerto Rico. The little island off the coast of Puerto Rico. JJ: Little famous island. LN: Yeah, little famous island. Yeah. With all the US bombing we used to be, not anymore. But I went to high school there for two years. My parents separated, divorced, and I went with my mom. And, I did good, I mean, I spoke Spanish at home. My parents always spoke [00:55:00] Spanish. I speak fluent Spanish. And I adapted. It was tough getting used to, though. It’s a whole different world in Vieques. You know? From growing up in Chicago. And growing up in a big city. JJ: So how was that, going over there? How were you treated? LN: Oh my God, it was a culture shock. Culture shock. JJ: Culture shock? What do you mean? What do you mean? LN: Well, you know, here, you can hang out outside. You know? And you could over there, and you could do so many things, but Vieques, I mean, you think... It’s like going to the campo. And -- 42 �JJ: To the country, okay. LN: Putting you there, where, at seven o’clock at night, everybody’s in bed. This was back in the ’80s. And this is like -- (laughs) That’s how it was. I remember the first day that I got there, we were playing all day, I took a shower, and I put on jeans, and a t-shirt, and socks, and gym shoes. And I went outside, because my brother was outside, my younger brother, my stepbrother was outside. And they’re asking me, “Where are you [00:56:00] going?” And I’m like, “What do you mean, where I’m going? I’m not going anywhere.” He’s like, “Why do you got jeans on?” ’Cause everybody’s got on shorts, you know, chancletas, sandals, and a t-shirt. You know, t-shirts. And here, it looks like I’m going into town, just because I got a jeans and socks and a shirt on. JJ: And shoes. (laughs) LN: And shoes. And it’s like, “Well, where are you -- it’s a weekn-- It’s a school night, like, where are you going?” I’m like, “I’m not going anywhere!” “Well, why are you dressed like that?” I’m like, “How am I supposed to dress like?” You know? But everybody was in shorts, chancletas, ’cause everybody’s just chilling, a couple hours, and then going to bed, ’cause they gotta go to school the next day. And, I mean, we had two channels, three channels. We had channel 2, Telemundo, channel 4, WAPA, and channel 40, which was a cable channel that would come in because a US base was there, so we would get a feed, a very light feed. Three channels. And there’s not much else to do. You got, you know, two, three guys in the house, my parents, I mean, my mom and her husband, [00:57:00] they were sleeping early, ’cause they had to work. But there 43 �was nothing to do, I mean, there’s like, you had a park, but here, when I was in Chicago, you could go with your buddies, you could go here, you could go party here, you know, anywhere. But, you know, in Puerto Rico, it was weird. It was just something different, I mean, we had a small house, there was about six of us in the house. (laughs) It was just a total shock. I adapted well in school because I spoke the language. And of course, anybody who comes from the States to Puerto Rico, they call you Nuyorican. I wasn’t a Nuyorican, I was a Chicagorican. Because that’s where I came from. But because, you know, (Spanish)Gringo [00:57:42]. Because I spoke English, or they knew I came from the States. They knew I wasn’t from there. So, but, I mean, I only lived there for two years. I made great friends. This coming summer we’re having our 30th high school reunion, and, you know, they’re great [00:58:00] people, I mean, they -JJ: So you go there every year for the reunion, or? LN: I don’t go every year, I think the last one I went was for the 25th -- JJ: In Vieques (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: In Vieques, yeah. Vieques, yeah. It’s a nice little trip, yeah. JJ: [What?] was the school? [I mean?], was there only one school? LN: There was only one high school. There still is only one high school. (laughs) JJ: Do you remember the name? What’s the name of (inaudible)? LN: Germán Rieckehoff High School. JJ: Okay. 44 �LN: Well, you know what, I think that, but it’s the only high school, they have a junior high s-- JJ: [Germán Enrique?]? LN: Germán Rieckehoff. And I think, Germán Rieckehoff’s son used to be the president of the Puerto Rican Olympic Committee or something. But that’s -Germán Rieckehoff High School, that’s what I remember it being. It’s the only high school in Vieques. And there’s no college or university, you have to go to the mainland, you know, so. And then that’s the other thing, transportation, to get to Vieques you have to take a boat. Or a plane. Plane rides are -- they used to be, I remember, ten bucks. Back then, that was a lot of money. The boat was a dollar, or two dollars, that’s it. So everybody would take the boat. It was a lancha ride, which was a horrible hour-and-a-half ride, ’cause the boats back then were just crazy. JJ: (laughs) [Yeah, they [00:59:00] didn’t work right?]. LN: And then you have to be on the boat, you [can mareaba?], you get seasick. So it was going to a whole different world, man. I mean, you don’t have no TV, very -you can’t do much, there’s not much to do in Vieques, you know. (laughs) JJ: And this was what year? LN: This was 1982, ’83? JJ: And there was no TV or anything? LN: Well, we had a TV, and I think we had three channels, I don’t think we had -- JJ: Oh yeah, you had the three channels. 45 �LN: We had -- no, (inaudible) because they were local channels. I don’t know about cable or anything, you know. Plus we couldn’t afford it. (laughs) Not on my stepfather’s salary. JJ: But your family’s from there? He’s not from there (inaudible) -- LN: No, Mami is from Gurabo, but she’s got an older sister who married one of the pilots that flew from Vieques to Puerto Rico, who fly the planes. So her older sister married this guy, and he’s from Vieques, so when my mom went over there, you know, her only sibling there was her sister. So she went and lived with her sister for a while. And then Mami eventually bought the house down the street, [01:00:00] and that’s how Mami went to Vieques. And that’s where I went to high school, that’s where she was living at the time, so. JJ: So, yeah, ’cause they got the base, I saw that here, but the base (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Mm-hmm. They have two bases, yeah. JJ: So did you interact with those people at all, from the base? LN: With the base people? JJ: Yeah. LN: Oh yeah, my stepfather was a security guard for the base. That was his job. And he would get us in there, you know, to go fishing, crab fishing, (Spanish) [01:00:26] -- JJ: But they had rivers, or something like that? LN: They don’t have rivers, they have little lagoons, and they have other -- he knew those spots, because he was a security guard, and he would roam the areas. 46 �And he would talk, he spoke English, he would talk to the Navy guys, you know, and they would tell him. Some of the guys, they treated him good. And they would tell him, “Oh, you gotta go here,” and, you know, he was a security guard. And so he knew all the spots, so he would get us in there, and we would go to the base. I mean, they had, like, I forget what [01:01:00] they call it, their nightclub or something, and they had, like, music there, and I remember they used to have free movie nights, and they would have this big projector, and then I think, I don’t know if it was once a week or every night, they had a different movie. And they would allow the residents of Vieques to go. The only time you cannot go in the base, I remember, in the two years that I was there, was when they had the maniobra, they had the practice sessions where they would do all the bombing on, you know, one end of the island. Which is interesting, too, because when I was there, I remember being outside of my mom’s house, and feeling the earth move. And I’m like, “Oh, what was that?” And my brother, sister, and my stepbrothers, they were like, “Those are just practice bombs.” I’m like, “Really?” And they would just, you know, the whole island would shake. At least, that was my experience when I was there. I’m like, “Wow!” You know, this -- and that’s when you were not allowed to go on the base because, I guess, security reasons. [01:02:00] You know, obviously, they’re practicing. And they would do their landings in the boats, and shooting, and practice bombings, or whatever. But yeah, we would go in there all the time. I remember the free movie nights, I think we had to bring our own popcorn or buy popcorn from 47 �inside, but the movies were free. You know. (laughs) And, so we, you know, my stepfather mostly interacted with the Navy guys. JJ: But you didn’t actually hear the bombs, it was... LN: I felt them. Yeah, I felt them. JJ: Why wouldn’t you hear them? Were they underground? LN: No, I think it’s because they were far. I mean, you know, Vieques is not a big island, so right in the middle is where the residents live. And I think the practice was way at one of the ends of the island of Vieques. JJ: At the beach? at the beach. LN: So I wouldn’t hear them. I would see the Navy ships, though. If you would go to one of the -- I don’t know if you’ve been to Vieques. Vieques has got some of the most beautiful beaches in the world. JJ: No, I’ve never been (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LN: It’s really, really pretty. So you would be in Sumbay Beach, which was, we called it Sumbay, but it’s Sun Bay [01:03:00] Beach. Puerto Ricans be calling Sumbay. (laughter) And, you could see the big Navy ships way, way, way in the background. You would see them. You wouldn’t -- I didn’t ever saw them firing. I felt it, when I, like I said, I heard the dun, like, dun, I felt that, but I wouldn’t -- I never saw them, you know. JJ: Was this a regular thing, where you felt that? LN: Oh, yeah. Every time they did the practice, you know. Once -- it’s like living next to a train. I remember we lived here, next to a train a while, and you hear the loud noise initially, but then after a while you just become oblivious to it. 48 �JJ: You get used to it. Bom, bom -- LN: Yeah, and so -- JJ: Yeah. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: -- initially when I first heard the bombs -- Yeah, you know, I felt it, I’m like, “Wow.” And then after that, you would hear ’em, whenever they would practice. I forgot how frequent they would practice. But after that, I didn’t hear ’em anymore. Again, it’s like, probably I just got used to them. And that’s why I said I don’t know how often they would practice. But yeah, Vieques was definitely an [01:04:00] experience. Very beautiful island. My sister still lives there. She works for Vieques Air Link, she’s one of the receptionists. ’Cause she speaks perfect English, you know? And Spanish. JJ: Air Link, Airlines? LN: Vieques Air Link. JJ: Air Link, Air Link. Okay. LN: Yeah. L-I-N-K. JJ: So is that the airport, or something? LN: That’s the airline there. JJ: Airline. LN: They have several, but one of them, the guy who founded it, his name was Valdo. But he came up with the initials VAL, you know, Vieques Air Link, and those are his initials for his name, so, and, so my sister works there. She still lives there. So I go there every chance I get, I’ll go there. It’s a very beautiful island. But I can only handle two or three days of that tranquility. Beautiful. If 49 �you ever wanna go there and just not hear anything. And just sit by the beach, which is what I do. One or two days is good. (laughs) JJ: So today you don’t hear the bombs, is that what you’re saying, or? LN: Oh yeah, they stopped bombing years ago. I think they got the Navy out of there. I wanna say, I forget when, in the ’90s I think. ’90, ’91, or something like that. They had the big [01:05:00] protest, all those mass arrests, all the congressmen and politicians -- JJ: (inaudible) LN: Was it Clinton that got -- I think it was Clinton, right? JJ: I’m not sure (inaudible) LN: One of them, yeah. But it was -- JJ: But I think it was around 2000. LN: It was ninety-- Yeah, you know, that must be right. Yeah. JJ: That year. LN: Yeah, it was -- JJ: ’99 or 2000, something like that. LN: But it’s very -- you don’t hear none of that anymore, you know, you don’t. It’s just, you know, Google it and you’ll see some of the -- it’s really -- JJ: ’Cause you’ve been back afterwards. LN: Oh, yeah, plenty of times. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) place is more tranquil? LN: Oh, yeah. Every time I go, I -- we’ve gone for Christmas, and, you know, it’s 80 degrees out there, and my mom thinks it’s cold. 50 �JJ: And Christmas is the same as the rest of the Puerto Rico there, of course. LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I’ll go -- I wanna go -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: I wanna go to the beach, you know. I wanna go to the beach and just hang out. And my mom’s like, “It’s too cold!” I’m like, “Mom! I come from Chicago.” (laughter) “You know how cold it is in Chicago? I wanna go hang out at the beach! I don’t care if it’s 50 degrees! I’m going to the beach. I can’t come to Puerto Rico and not come to the beach.” And [01:06:00] Mami’s so protective, like, “Oh, no te vayas, stay here with the kids, watch the ocean, watch the waves.” You know, the beach is so beautiful, you can walk, literally, for about 100 feet and you will never go deeper than this here. And then the water’s so warm, to me, it is. And clear as day. Pretty, pretty. But, you know, my mom’s like, “Oh, don’t go out there!” But, you know, Puerto Rican women, to her, she’ll prepare me a lunch bag, like, you know, [jata?], she’ll boil the [jatas?], and do the bread, the whole thing. (Spanish) [01:06:31] She’ll make it for me. And then she wants to know what I want for dinner. (laughter) That night. Right after I had breakfast. You know? (laughter) And she’s always protective. But no, I gotta go to the beach, and just hang out. It’s so pretty, if you get a chance, go and visit. Stay for a couple days, stay as long as you want. Not much of a nightlife there, you know, if you want the nightlife you gotta go to San Juan, pero, Vieques is [01:07:00] very pretty, very quiet. It is a whole different world, and I think now that I’m older, I appreciate it. I’m like, “Man, you know, that’s not a bad little island to go to.” Not so when you’re a teenager, you know, born and raised in 51 �Chicago and you wanna go party and hang out with your boys all the time, you know. (laughter) But I grew up -- I thank my grandparents, I always will. And maybe some of the guys that I grew up with and their parents. They were all always involved in our lives. I have a bunch of friends that I grew up with who are Chicago police guys, detectives now, I have friends who are lawyers, I have friends who are doctors, all from the neighborhood. And that’s a rarity, I think. You know. Because we weren’t given much of a chance, I think, I mean, and even through life, I’m sure everybody’s faced their own discrimination to some extent. But could you imagine if we [01:08:00] would’ve been given an opportunity? If we would’ve been accepted more? I mean, I’m just giving you a sampling of the guys that I know. There’s those guys that went the other way, who never got that chance, for whatever reason. They got involved with other things. But the guys that I grew up with? Those guys are -- they’re like my brothers, they’re friends for life, and I think that, you know, my parents and my grandmother and my grandfather were always involved in our lives. That allowed us to continue to know that education was key. And you gotta stay in school, and all that stuff, you know. And the guys, again, I mean, you hear stories about guys, and you go to west side Chicago. Oh yeah, they can tell you how many of their friends have died through gang fight, through gun -JJ: You’re talking about, like, Humboldt Park and stuff like that. LN: No, I’m talk-- I mean west side, I mean -- JJ: And west side. 52 �LN: Even Humboldt Park, you know, west side or even further west, like getting closer to Austin. And you have kids, kids that are barely teenagers -- JJ: ’Cause they were the Puerto Ricans right now, or is that what you’re saying? LN: [01:09:00] No, yeah, most of them are there. But I’m just saying that, you know, the kids out there will tell you, “Hey, I have, I know five or six of my friends who are dead.” Because of gang fights or whatever. The guys that I grew up with, you know, none. I can’t -- I don’t know any one of my friends who were killed in some tragedy like that. The guys that I grew up with. We had a good upbringing in the neighborhood. You know? That whole community on Halsted Street was a good community. I mean, I can go on and on and on about the guys that I know, about what they did. Eventually, you know, some of those guys moved out west, and I think there’s a bigger -- there’s a lot of Puerto Ricans in Humboldt Park, you know that. We bought our building in Humboldt Park, you know. When we moved out of there, I think I lived in Logan Square for one year, and again, the rent was, like, crazy. I had started working already, so I could afford a bigger apartment, but then after a while, I’m like, you know, the rent -- that building got sold, to a Spanish guy, but he wanted to jack the rent up 150 bucks, I’m like, [01:10:00] “I can’t pay 950 for a two-bedroom apartment.” And I looked, and I’m like, “I could pay a mortgage for 100 more dollars.” So we bought a building in Humboldt Park, a three-flat. Which we still have to this day. Maybe it’s because I’m thinking, “I’m not selling!” (laughs) I’m not selling because I know what happened to Halsted Street, you know, when these guys had a house that they bought for 10,000, somebody came and offered them 100 and now 53 �they’re gone. Humboldt Park’s changing too. I mean, you could see it if you go there. When I moved in, then, it was a whole different neigh-- it wasn’t Halsted Street. Humboldt Park, when I lived there, when I bought it in 1992, ’93, was definitely, you know, a different world than from what I grew up in Halsted. You’re talking gangs that I would see. You could see the guy smoking weed on the street. You know. Humboldt Park was definitely a different world from the Hals-JJ: And what year was this? LN: This was ’90s. In the ’90s. JJ: In the ’90s. LN: Yeah. JJ: You know, they were similar to Halsted in the beginning. LN: Is that right? JJ: Yeah, [01:11:00] that was a change during that time. LN: Yeah. Well, (inaudible) JJ: That I recall. But I -- LN: No, no, no, and that’s good. JJ: That’s what you recall. LN: Exactly, I mean, that’s what I remember from my Halsted. My Halsted -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) you saw gangs, and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: My Halsted Street, I didn’t see -- I mean, again, we saw some of that, but not on the block that I grew up. Humboldt Park, when I moved, that was -- I mean, there 54 �you saw it everywhere. Everywhere. I mean, you still see it today. Not as much, but you still s-JJ: So it wasn’t, like, really, like, a close-knit community, or anything. LN: I don’t think so. But I’m talking about, I had just moved into Humboldt Park. I knew that Puerto Ricans lived there... JJ: So how was it not? LN: Well, the block that I live in, and I tell people, it’s, like, probably one of the best kept secrets in Humboldt Park. It’s a dead end street, no pun intended, but it’s Thomas Street that butts up against an alley. It’s not a through street where you have cars driving in all the way all the time. You don’t have drive-bys on that block, you know. When I moved in, yeah, you had your guys that were, you know, you could tell who’s who, and who’s probably trouble, and who’s in a gang, [01:12:00] and who wasn’t. I fit in, ’cause I was Puerto Rican, and my wife’s Puerto Rican, and, you know, we lived on the block with a bunch of Puerto Ricans. And you saw families -- JJ: What is your wife’s name? Is that okay? LN: Flor. Flor Neris. JJ: Flor. LN: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) (laughs) LN: Yeah, Flor Neris. And we lived on the block, and it was just her and I, and we had the building, and we rented the two apartments, and it helped us pay for the mortgage. 55 �JJ: And you have kids, too, or? LN: Now I have kids, yeah. JJ: What are their names? First names -- LN: Jeneli, Jaidelis, and Luis. Again, I gotta follow family tradition. My papi’s Angel -actually, Papi’s Angel Luis, I’m Angel Luis also. And my son is Luis Angel. I kinda changed it up a little bit. But yeah, I have the three kids now, pero, but Hal- Humboldt Park was different because you had, I didn’t know the families. I mean, I was already an adult. And then, you’re the new kid on the block, moving in. You know, you’ll make friends. I mean, I met Don Vicente from across the street, I met Eliot next door who works for the IRS. (laughs) Vicente’s wife works for the school, my buddy Leon down the [01:13:00] street is a retired police officer, his wife was a schoolteacher. So you met those people and you got good people on the block, and it’s a really good block. Some people rent, you know, and you have your Section 8 folks living in the neighborhood, and you have other people who don’t care much for what they rent, or maybe the owner doesn’t care as long as he’s getting his rent, who don’t live in the building. I don’t live in my building either. Listen, I don’t wanna say, “Hey,” I’m not gonna start throwing any stones. But I’m a little bit more picky when it comes to my tenants. I would rather have somebody who’s gonna pay me less, but have a good tenant, as opposed to jacking the rent up, where, you know, who knows who I’m gonna get just because I want 100 extra bucks. You know. I pass by my building all the time, it’s like I live there, so my tenants know. You know? And they’re good, the people on the block, they’re kinda watching out. I think it still needs time, you 56 �know, it still needs time. Humboldt Park is not that idyllic, great neighborhood [01:14:00] that you have -- I mean, listen, anywhere you go, you’re gonna get in trouble. Trouble can find you anywhere. Whether you live in Lincoln Park, whether you live in Wicker Park, whether you live in Humboldt Park, it’s gonna find you. The block that I live in? It’s different from Lincoln Park, it’s just that I didn’t grow up there, and although we’ve had the building 20-plus years, you know, I like to believe that it’s a nice little block. Not too far from Haddon, which is where one of the Calistos lives. (laughs) And then you have the other side of the park. And I haven’t gone to much of the other side of the park, ’cause I lived, you know, Kedzie and Thomas is where the building is at. JJ: You’re on Kedzie and Thomas? LN: Yeah. But, you know, it’s a great neighborhood. I loved it. The only reason I moved out was because of what I do. You know, I wanted the big house. I wanted the big backyard. I didn’t have a backyard in Humboldt Park, I had an alley. (laughs) And a two-car brick garage. I want my kids to [01:15:00] play outside, I want my kids to grow up in a nice, safe neighborhood. Again, anywhere it can find you, but the neighborhood where I live now, it’s kinda like that neighborhood where everybody watches you. It’s amazing. When I went to -- they had a meeting at the school up in Oriole Park in Chicago. How, there were some reports about gang recruiting at Oriole Park. Which is unheard of, it’s a neighborhood where you have just a bunch of professionals living. You know, it’s unheard of, gang recruiting. And they had a meeting, they sent a letter out to all the parents, and I went to this meeting. And it was just amazing, the number 57 �of people that came to that meeting. The parents in the neighborhood. It overflowed. It was just incredible. And I’m like, “Wow!” And this was when I had just first moved in the neighborhood. Had that happened, you know, back in the neighborhood, very few parents showed up. I know I remember the parents from my block being at the PTA meetings, or the [01:16:00] meeting with the police commander of the area, but over there, it’s because so many people were involved, and I’m like, “Wow!” This is good, it’s a good thing, you know? You’re getting involved with the neighborhood. It was good. And so, it’s a nice neighborhood. I mean, I’m giving my kids an opportunity, and it’s okay with me. Now, after they’re gone, I mean, I’d probably move back to Humboldt Park, I kinda like Humboldt Park, you know? There’s a difference between -- I’ll never forget the first night we lived in our house. I’m looking out the window, and my wife tells me, “What are you doing? Que te hace (Spanish) Puertorriqueno.” [01:16:34] [01:16:35] I’m like, “This is too quiet, it’s eerily quiet.” You know, in Humboldt Park, you look out the window, people, “Ay, (inaudible)!” They’re screaming and stuff, bom bom, you know? Neighborhood where I live is like, “This is crazy, it’s too quiet, man!” (laughter) Like, “No!” Anyway, it’s just a different neighborhood, you know? And then, maybe I’m coming full circle, coming to the neighborhood. ’Cause the neighborhood where we have, we don’t have parrandas. But [01:17:00] we have walks. (laughs) For Christmas. In the neighborhood, it’s crazy, it’s mostly an Anglo neighborhood. Very few Puerto Rican families. But we make coquito for Christmas. And the entire block wants it. They have street party -- street -- 58 �JJ: What’d you put in -- LN: Block parties. JJ: What’d you put in the juice? (laughter) LN: Hey -- JJ: [Mixed up?]. LN: Exacto. They have block parties. In the summer. It’s great, I mean, you have the entire neighborhood come out. They do stuff for the kids, they do a bike parade at 12:00, they got music, they got, you know, jumping things, they got, the pump is open, it’s, like, awesome. And my wife makes limber. And the kids, little Anglo kids, come over and they want more and more, Flor makes batches of ’em, and they absolutely love it. And, you know, when we had the Christmas walk, similar to our [01:18:00] parranda, they’re caroling here, but it’s just a couple of families, you know, about, almost half the block did it, and you get three houses. That one house, you know, you’re at the Johnsons’ house from 7:00 to 8:00. You’re at the Gonzalezes’ house from 8:00 till 9:00. And it’s just hors d’oeuvres, just hanging out, adults only. And they just walk, you know, from house to house. No music, but you’re just hanging out, and it’s kinda cool. We made the ponche coquito one year, and they absolutely loved it, so now every year, we gotta do it. You know. And they loved it. It’s our culture mixing with their culture, and it’s a good mesh. We get along, I love all my neighbors, absolutely. And it’s that neighborhood that I remember from when I was growing up, that maybe protective little block on Halsted Street. That, you know, probably my parents and my grandmother, or my grandparents, saw the trouble, but they kinda 59 �shielded it away from us, and now we’re in a neighborhood where it’s [01:19:00] kinda something similar, and anybody who’s suspicious that comes in the neighborhood, I mean, first of all, you’d have to be crazy, ’cause nothing but cops and firemen live up there. You know? (laughs) Does it happen? Absolutely. I tell you, trouble will find you anywhere. And, you know, it just -- today’s life, so. JJ: And, can you kind of, in general, describe the type of work that you do? You said fraud? -- LN: Yeah, I do investigative work for -- JJ: I mean, if it’s okay to describe, I don’t wanna (inaudible) LN: I’d just like to keep it general. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, just keep it general. LN: Yeah, just general. Yeah, we just investigate white-collar crime. Yeah, and, you know, it’s a good job. JJ: Like businesses, or? LN: Businesses, individuals, you know, you name it. Yeah. Pretty much, you know, it’s, today’s day and age, politicians, whatever. JJ: Okay, so there’s -- is there a lot more today or something? That became a business now, now that becomes a -- fraud is a business, or? LN: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I got job security for my -- JJ: I’m not trying to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No -- JJ: I’m not trying to (inaudible) I’m just trying to -- 60 �LN: No, I mean, [01:20:00] there’s some work out there to be done. I mean, again, it’s nothing new. It’s just that, you know, with the economy nowadays, people get a lot more creative. You know? (laughter) We just gotta keep up with technology. I mean, we got a lot of resources that are disposable, and it’s just, fraud is always gonna be around, you know. I mean, listen, we live in Chicago, I think, I don’t know if state of Illinois still has the title of the most corrupt state in the nation, you know, it’s just... I think it’s just that they get caught. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Everybody does it, I think everybody does it -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [couple going or something?] -- LN: (laughs) I think we have the state where people get caught. I mean, I think it happens everywhere, you know. So, but yeah, it’s an interesting line of work, something -- JJ: So you actually are investigating this kind of thing? LN: Not this thing, but fraud. (laughter) JJ: No, no, I just -- LN: No, you make it sound like -- no, I’m not investigating anything here. JJ: I mean the fraud, [I mean?] you’re investigating fraud, that’s what I mean. LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, mostly white-collar stuff, yeah. So anything to do with white-collar. (laughter) [01:21:00] I’d like to keep it at that, you know, so. And it’s interesting, though, and it’s interesting, though. JJ: Some final thoughts, what do you think we need to really stress about Marcano, like, your life -- 61 �LN: Yeah, you know what, again, you asked me for my Lincoln Park, and I gave you what I remember. I was just a kid there. You know. If, you know, you’re smart enough, you can figure this how you want it to go, and I think you’re on the right track. What I would like, though, is the stuff that Marcano left for me. Because he was a good man. He was. And he meant to do well. And he left the stuff for me... I have it, I’m glad I had the conversation with Freddy Calisto not too long ago, because we were [01:22:00] talking about it and I said, “Hey, I got a bunch of stuff at the house, man. You know? And it’s just sitting there.” And I couldn’t get rid of it, because Marcano left it for me. He specifically told me, “You (inaudible) I’m gonna leave this for you, ’cause I know,” you know, he left it to me for a reason. And I don’t know if maybe, just, fate that you... Freddy knew about what you were doing, and I had the stuff, and you know, we’re coming together. And I got the pictures at the house, I wanna make sure that you get, because I think his story needs to be told, and there’s no better story that you’re gonna get than from the tapes and the audios. ’Cause there’s audios here, of everything he did, you got a lot of work here, man. (laughs) You know? There’s a lot of -countless hours of tape, and you got música, he’s got everything in there. And I think this is probably something that’s gonna, you know, do your project good. And again, I -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the best thing that we could do is to make it public for the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Absolutely, absolutely. And again, you know, listen, I -- 62 �JJ: For research -- other researchers, and other people that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Absolutely. If they ever need to [01:23:00] get in touch with me, you know, I’ll give you whatever I remember. If I can find stuff at home, some more, I, you know, I think it’s a -- when he passed away, I thought it was a shame that he didn’t -- it did not get played more here, in Chicago. Because he was a pillar here. He was a pillar of the community. You’ll see for yourself, when you see the tapes, if you get a chance to see the tapes, and see the pictures and stuff, the kinda stuff that he did. I mean, he got black and white photos, that I have at home, and I apologize I didn’t get them to you, but I’m gonna definitely make sure. I’m off today, so I’m gonna get home, start getting the pictures, putting ’em on a disc, and I’ll definitely make sure you get ’em, ’cause I think it’s important. This is perfect, this is perfect, what you’re doing. Especially, like, the Lincoln Park community, you know, it’s like. So that’s what I would like. I mean, you know, he’s the one that deserved the credit. I was just, you know, again, part of the Puerto Rican mom and dad that came here, looking for a [01:24:00] better life. JJ: Well, that’s important, so that it’s a, oral histories of different people, so. LN: Yeah, absolutely. JJ: And you’re familiar with that being, you know, going through the college scene and all that, so. LN: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, he -- JJ: So you know what we’re doing, I mean, it’s clear what we’re trying to do. 63 �LN: Good. And I’m glad, I’m thankful for that, because it’s almost like a forgotten story. And I don’t know if anybody’s taken time to document it, you know, and obviously you’re doing it -- Marcano did, but he wasn’t around long enough to make sure that -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Way before that. LN: -- to make sure that -- JJ: Way before we even thought about documenting, he was doing it, so that’s really great. LN: Yeah, yeah, exactly. JJ: That’s what’s great about that. LN: That’s what I said, and it’s funny, I made that analogy about the wire thing. He made camellos for the Three Kings Day. He made a lechón, I remember he called it El Batey, the restaurant was called El Batey, and he made un lechón en una varita, and the pig was made out of wire and covered in some fabric that he colored brown to make it look like an actual pig, with an apple in its mouth, and, you know, [01:25:00] and the two sticks. I mean, it’s -- I think there’s a picture, at home, of the restaurant, you know. (laughs) He made the stuff, it was just crazy, just to think that I was driving the other day and I thought about the snowmen and the reindeers that are being made and being sold in stores. Stuff he was making (laughs) way back when. And documenting the stuff, you know? Documenting it. And I’m glad that I got an opportunity to meet you and that, you know, hopefully this -- JJ: Appreciate it. 64 �LN: -- will have some stuff for you guys that will help you get along in your project, man. I really do. I really do. JJ: I appreciate it. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. LN: No problem. Anytime. END OF VIDEO FILE 65 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d4496b6234c5647994459293151e198.mp4 dacd1107d6455c29107f2001ac76368c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Luis Neris vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Luis Neris, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 12/14/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Neris_Luis Title A name given to the resource Luis Neris video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Neris, Luis Description An account of the resource Oral history of Luis Neris, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 12/14/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/efc8fba0e6d7b736fd5a888e294b1d46.pdf 1cc0325667af03435784a4a99e16efbd PDF Text Text Young   L ords   In  Lincoln  Park   Interviewee:  Bob  Lee  (Robert  E.  Lee)   Interviewers:  Jose  Jimenez   Location:  Grand  Valley  State  University  Special  Collections   Date:  2/16/2017   Runtime:  01:49:38       Biography  and  Description               Bob  Lee  or  Robert  E.  Lee  like  the  confederate  general  is  from  Houston,  Texas  where  he  did  his  oral   history  interview.  He  grew  up  in  the  “forest”  near  Jasper,  TX.  His  family  worked  on  a  cotton   plantation.  One  of  his  brothers  Franco  became  a  county  commissioner  of  the  5th  Ward  of  Houston   for  over  30  years.  In  1969  Bob  Lee  became  a  Deputy  Field  Marshall  for  the  Illinois  Chapter  of  the   Black  Panther  Party.  His  worked  included  Uptown  where  he  started  working  with  the  Young   Patriots  Organization.  This  was  a  Southern  White  group  who  sported  the  confederate  flag  but   worked  against  racism.  Bob  Lee  was  trying  to  bring  them  closer  to  the  Panthers.   The  Young  Lords  had  begun  working  with  the  Illinois  Black  Panthers  in  mid  -­‐February,  the  day  after   they  had  entered  the  second  floor  and  briefly  “occupied”  the  18th  Police  District  Workshop  Meeting   to  protest  repression.  It  received  media  coverage  and  Chairman  Fred  Hampton  came  to  the  next  day   to  the  street  corner  of  Dayton  and  Armitage  to  meet  with  the  Young  Lords  leader,  Jose  (Cha-­‐Cha)   Jimenez.  Fred  and  Cha-­‐Cha  were  arrested  twice  that  same  month  and  charged  with  mob  action   along  with  Obed  Lopez  and  his  Latin  American  Defense  Organization  which  was  picketing  the   Wicker  Park  Welfare  Office.  They  were  attempting  to  form  a  welfare  union  with  both  caseworkers   and  recipients.   �On  April  5,  1969  Fred  Hampton  asked  Cha  -­‐  Cha  to  join  with  William  (Preacherman)  Fesperman  and   the  Young  Patriots  in  a  Rainbow  Coalition  of  the  three  groups.  Though  the  original  founding  was   informal,  between  the  Black  Panthers,  Young  Patriots  and  Young  Lords,  there  were  several  press   conferences  held  in  Chicago  and  in  other  cities  later.  The  coalition  was  more  mass  and  symbolic   with  the  goal  of  being  more  inclusive  and  bringing  more  groups  into  the  coalition  such  as:  I  Wor   Keum,  the  Red  Guard,  the  Brown  Berets,  AIM  and  SDS.   �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: There it is. Okay. ROBERT LEE: You know who I would like to meet before? Miss Katz, Marilyn Katz, yeah, I would like just to say hello to her. JJ: Yeah. RL: Yeah, Marilyn Katz. HY THURMAN: JJ: Yeah? I got her number. Are we recording? RAY: Yeah. That already (inaudible). JJ: Yeah, at least to me. FAIZA: Only from the back? HT: Hey, man. How you doing? R: Yeah, there you go. That’s good. JJ: (inaudible) RL: Okay. Well, y’all want me to do, to tell? JJ: No, I’m just going to ask a few questions, whatever. R: I’m not asking nothing. JJ: You’re not asking no questions? I’m going to ask some questions because this is an oral history about your life. So, tell me where you were born. Start with your name and where you were born. RL: Okay. My birth name? JJ: Yeah. 1 �RL: My dad named me Robert E. Lee, Jr., III, okay? And that’s like naming [00:01:00] a Jewish kid Adolf Hitler in Germany. And I didn’t know. You know, I’m six, seven years old. I didn’t know about Hitler or the Holocaust, things like that. So, you know how when you go to school, you’re in the first grade, it’s your first day, and everybody stand up and introduce themselves? So, we go on down the line. Little girl says, “My name is Judy Johnson.” And they go, “What’s your name, little boy?” “My name is Harold Jones.” Get to my name, this lady’s name was Mrs. Walker, the teacher. When they got to me, you know, I’m Robert E. Lee III after my grandfather and my daddy, so I assumed [00:02:00] that that was a great name, you know? I assumed it. So, Cha Cha, when I stood up and said, “My name is Robert E. Lee., Jr., III,” the teacher looked at me. I knew then that I had done something wrong. She had no smile, so she said, “Robert E. Lee, Jr., III, after class, I just want to speak to you for a minute.” I said, “Yes, ma’am.” So, she went around the circle, and by the end of first day, she sent all the kids out kinda early. So, at that time, our internet was an encyclopedia. It wasn’t what we do now. So, I’m a little boy, little ol’ bitty thing, and we sat beside the bookshelf. She pulled that L bookshelf up, Cha Cha, [00:03:00] pulled the L up in the encyclopedia, pulled that page out, and she thumbed through till she found Lee. Now, at first, I didn’t see Lee. I saw that horse, you know, a traveler. You know, my background is ponies clubs and ranches and rodeos. JJ: What do you mean, ranches? RL: Yeah, that’s my thing. JJ: Oh, you do that? 2 �RL: Yeah. Yeah, I’ve organized rodeos in East Texas, (inaudible) rodeos, racer rodeos. So, when she started telling me all the history, but they never really, in that encyclopedia, mentioned the Holocaust. Yeah, we found that out later when Adolf Eichmann was arrested. So, I went home pissed, okay? [00:04:00] They did talk about Hitler, what he did, the war, millions of people being killed. So, dad came home, and I’m waiting on him, man. Because I finally got him. (inaudible) got it, because when you’re that young, you was a hassle for your daddy (inaudible) go about. So, I told dad. Dad said, “Okay, Junior. Okay,” he said, “but wait until I die.” I said, “That’s a deal.” So, he chose my name for me, which is Robert Alwalee. That means to be a friend, the organizer of people’s affairs. And the positive side of this, being named [00:05:00] Robert E. Lee, one night I’ll ride -- I’m thinking I’m in my community now. One night, me and a girlfriend and I and are riding down Cavalcade, and this is the positive side of that name, and I saw it clearly. In Houston, being a Southern city, you didn’t have to have a high school diploma, a college degree to be a cop in the South. So, I got a pocketful of weed, and back then, you could go to prison for one joint, you know, forever. So, I’m speeding, and a light come on, and I knew this was it. And the law, I told the girl that was driving, I said, “Take the car home.” [00:06:00] So, when the cop got out the car, walked towards me, he said, “Boy, gimme your driver’s license.” So, I handed him my driver’s license. He looked at my name. He said, “God damn, boy. This is a damn good Southern name, boy. Boy, slow this car down now,” and he gave me my driver’s license back. That’s when I saw the positive side, you know, because I aiming to get jobs. I might apply for a dishwasher job, 3 �and I’ll get a call the next day that I was hired. And that’s how I pretty much got it, man. When I came to Chicago, I came there as a VISTA volunteer. When I came to Chicago, I came as a VISTA. JJ: From where did you come? [00:07:00] RL: When? JJ: Yeah, from where did you come and when? RL: Oh, here? JJ: To Chicago. RL: Oh, okay. I had a scholarship, a track scholarship. I ran track at Southern University after high school, and I got tired of running because the movement was really drawing me then. Rap Brown used to come on the campus in Baton Rouge to talk us as athletes, the role that we could play in the movement, because Ali and them were stepping out there. Jim Brown was stepping out there. So, I walked on the track field, and part of mine was doing recruiting for VISTA, so I figured everything out, but I went out to Oakland to visit my relatives out there. Then [00:08:00] I got a job working at the recreation center for the handicapped. See, that’s my strength, wheelchair basketball, archery for the blind, baseball for the blind. I could coach those things. Then, all of a sudden, about six months after being there, I got this notice that I was accepted into VISTA by Jane Addams Training Center. And I had to think about that, but when I was – flew out, and I was living in Training Jane Addams, and I lived in [ICMY?]. JJ: Oh, at the [ICMY?], Actually, that’s where we were at when we were a gang, the Young Lords. 4 �RL: Let me get to that. JJ: Okay, let’s get to that. RL: Let me get to that. That’s when I was first (inaudible), [00:09:00] not physically or personally, but where I worked for Methodist Youth Services as a VISTA. I lived there as a VISTA. That’s where I would first hear the word, “Young Lord.” Matter of fact, that was the first time I would meet any so-called gang in Chicago is first the Lords. And see, me, I’m thinking when you say Latino in South, the Lords was a Rainbow Coalition just by itself. And so, what happened, my mother was talking to Bobby Seale’s -- oh, yeah, come on, babe. Sit down. JJ: Yeah, we’re just having a conversation. RL: Yeah, my mother was talking with Bobby Seale’s [00:10:00] mother. See, Bobby Seale is my second cousin. JJ: Oh, Bobby Seale is your second cousin? RL: Uh-huh. See, Bobby was born in Jasper. That’s his home, Jasper, Texas. So, when my mother got talking with Mrs. Seale, she asked me to go see about Bobby, you know, because apparently there’s some information, which I did. And that’s where I would meet Fred and Rush, and see, you guys was already evolving. And then later, what happened, as you know, Mike Gray and them was -- I’ll put it this way. When I joined the party, my name Robert E. Lee [00:11:00] changed to Bobby Lee, you know? JJ: Yeah, at that time, I knew you by that. I knew that story. RL: Our press got Luis Cuza. We had our first conference, Captains, Patriots, Lords, as the [picture that?] (inaudible). Luis Cuza was there that day. 5 �JJ: Luis Cuza was there, yeah. But that was more like in April at that time, around April, because I think we met Fred in February. And then I remember we went to jail a couple times at the Lincoln Park welfare office. And then later on, that’s when everybody got together with the Rainbow Coalition, in April. RL: That’s right. The next morning, my name went from Robert E. Lee, Jr. to Bobby Lee. JJ: Yeah, I remember that, because we were hanging out only in Old Town and all them places. RL: Huh? JJ: We were hanging out in Old Town and on Lincoln Avenue. RL: Yeah, that’s right. That’s as clear -- [00:12:00] JJ: What was that place on Lincoln Avenue? Wasn’t there a -- RL: The [Vieux Carré?]. A place called Vieux Carré. JJ: What’s the name of that? Is it Shiflett? RL: Then they had O’Rourke’s. JJ: O’Rourke’s, but that was in Old Town. But there was one on Lincoln Avenue by Shiflett. RL: I see it. JJ: You see it? RL: I see it. JJ: That’s Shiflett. That’s where we were hanging out. R: Oh, yeah, you mentioned there was a thing underneath it, right? JJ: Right. 6 �R: Or a (inaudible). JJ: No, no, that was on Lincoln Avenue. A lot of the leftists used to go there, and me and you went there a few times. We just met his son the other day. That’s why I mention it. RL: I figure I had to really learn fast about the Young Lord history. That’s when you gave me the history of that great revolutionary. Who’s -- JJ: Albizu Campos. RL: Yes. I remember clearly you was talking to me about it. Later on, [00:13:00] Piri Thomas, Down These Mean Streets, it had just come out, and you had suggested that I read that book. But Campos really impressed me. You either brought the book to me, or I brought the book to you. I don’t remember. JJ: You probably were. You were handing out books to everybody. RL: Yeah. That was the key. JJ: You might’ve gave it to me. RL: Yeah, see, we found our resources. We found every one of our resources by getting out there. The resources ain’t gonna on the door. You gotta go out there. And that’s pretty much the history of it, man, for that name. But I tell people a lot that, well, How to Organize Your Own. There’s a quote in there from [00:14:00] one of the young artists and writers stating that Robert E. Lee came back as a ghost. I’ll never forget that quote that this young man (inaudible). And I think that How to Organize Your Own, it could stand by a Saul Alinsky book, Rules for Radicals. JJ: So, you were using a lot of Saul Alinsky. I remember talking at that time. 7 �RL: Yeah. See, Saul, where he saw our Rainbow Coalition, I mean, our, (laughs) that’s what he failed to do. He wished he could’ve done it. He tried to organize a coalition with the Irish poor from the back of the yard, and he failed. He was able to do Woodlawn, but he couldn’t bring in Woodlawn in connection with the Irish [00:15:00] community because at that time, they’re racist. At that time, many was racist. Yeah, 90 percent, 95 percent of the Chicago police were, and so he always felt bad that he organized [back of y’all?]. JJ: So, what did you feel was the mission of the Rainbow Coalition? RL: The first mission is identify the working-class poor. That’s the first mission. The second mission that Fred and all of us, we discussed with folks in the coalition, what we have in common as a people. [00:16:00] For example, I tell Hy Thurman, I mention to Hy a lot, that the only difference between Black Appalachians and the white Appalachians is just that; one digging coal and the other digging coal together. But see, to this day, I tell my wife a lot when we talk about it, I’d never seen that kind of poverty, man, that we saw at Uptown. I (inaudible) fast to see that the West Side would be considered a middle-class community compared to what was happening in Uptown. [00:17:00] And what I couldn’t understand, the brutality of -- at that time, I couldn’t understand the brutality of whites on whites. I had never seen it in the South. You never see white people screaming at white people, not here in the South. I’ve never seen that. Well, we knew that the Rainbow Coalition had touched a vein in America. That’s why people now are really trying to find us. That’s why people is really trying to find us, Cha Cha. And talking today and yesterday, and brother Hy 8 �agreeing, I think we should have a conference, [00:18:00] a Rainbow Coalition conference, but not to have it in Chicago; have it on the campus of Ole Miss. I just gave Professor [McCann?] some contacts, well, contacts he had given me, but we should have a conference that’s on campuses that attracts that young student today. So, that’s what we were chatting about. He called Tracy and gave Tracy the idea because that whole racist thing here in the last -- what’s the guy’s name? HT: (inaudible) RL: All the politicians, [00:19:00] right-wing politicians who wanted to announce their campaign started to (inaudible) they’ll always kick it off (inaudible). So, we should have a conference, you know, this year, next year, very well organized. We know how to do that. But to attract students from, not just students, but you want that core of young students, white, Black, Hispanic, Latino, to attend it, have the books, films, and start a third party because that’s what we want, man. I didn’t realize that till later, but that was David and them’s fear, a third party. We had it, because after the Rainbow Coalition [00:20:00] in Chicago, Cha Cha Jiménez run for Alderman, and that was a seed when you ran. And that seed now has grown. In a sense, we owe -- I’ll do it this way, the regular Rainbow Coalition, then we talk about the first time the coalition was tested, Cha Cha Jiménez, Bobby Rush (inaudible) he ran for that. Then, Harold Washington, that’s where it was successful. Then, Rush, US Congressman. Then, a man named Barack Obama. You can’t be in Chicago, man, for 15 years and not [00:21:00] have seen (inaudible) Fred Hampton, period. Can’t do it. So, it’s 9 �already, what we are doing now is already evolving to a third party. My man was Sanders, Bernie Sanders, in the beginning. He talked more like me. And you remember when Bernie, when they took the camp, that they had that strike on campus? Was it University of Chicago, they had that strike? Bernie led that strike against the administration. JJ: University of Chicago? RL: Yeah. Bernie and they locked the doors and everything. Nobody could get in, and so that was Bernie Sanders. Fred and I went down there, but we couldn’t get in. [00:22:00] They wouldn’t let us in. Come on. Oh, yeah, come on, man. So, we, in a sense, we’re already a third. I cited the third party. After the Rainbow Coalition, the next seed became you, for growth for a movement. Then, Harold Washington, and I’m just being redundant, Harold Washington. JJ: But I think when I ran, it was more a mass group. I mean, it was the Rainbow Coalition, but we were not like an organization. We were like a mass movement. RL: Right. JJ: So, did you see the Rainbow Coalition like that? RL: That’s exactly right, because see, now what we’re talking about is disorganizing and reorganizing. [00:23:00] Hy Thurman, [the chip?], that one like [move of?] a body, and others of course. Our power base here in Houston is based on the Rainbow Coalition. See, Precinct One, we’re a minority Precinct One, and it’s 900,000 people in Precinct One. Most folks think Precinct One is all Black. It’s not. We’re a minority. 10 �JJ: Same with my campaign, we had to do that. That’s why we had to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RL: Yeah, man. That’s right. But see, what I was able to do, in the South, it really was hard for a lot of Black Southerners to work with many of the, well, Southerner period, because media had made the Southern accent a negative sound, [00:24:00] you know, like media has done to -- the show, The Beverly Hillbillies. That’s a stereotype. We’re at that point now that our children have a different attitude about life and people. But Precinct One, what I did, I went into the precinct where the white working class was, and my brother Franco said, “Yeah, you go.” But I took that hell, and they were right. The Black politicians ignored our Southern white brothers, but my thing, that it’s all about the working class in this country. I’m a Socialist. [00:25:00] I’m not a Democrat. I vote like a Panther. I’ll always be a Panther, like you’ll always be a Lord. Hy definitely going to be the white Panther. All Lords stay the same. JJ: So, what was your role in the Black Panther Party, your title and your function? RL: Huh? JJ: In the Black Panther Party in Chicago, what was your title and your function? What did you do? RL: Deputy field marshal. The night that I would meet Hy and all those guys, I was a section leader, but, you know, I never told Fred what I was doing for about two weeks, [00:26:00] because see, the party was just started, and a lot of the brothers had those strong racist tendencies at that time. You know, Dr. King got killed, the bombings, church bombings. Then the media would just blow it up 11 �with those accents, you know, Southern white accent. A lot of Panthers left the party because of that, but many came back also. It’s all the education process. So, you include people. You don’t slam the door on people. Let ’em talk about why they don’t wanna work with a white Southerner. Let ’em talk about why they don’t wanna work with a Puerto Rican. Let ’em blow it out. That’s what you do; allow them to express themselves. And it could take a week [00:27:00] (inaudible), but I think a mass conference would work well because we have all this new technology. We have all the books there. But the Ole Miss could be assembled today because this is where all people get lynched, burned, and bombed over wanting to go to college. JJ: I think that’s a good idea. We need to connect what’s going on Puerto Rico with it. RL: Yeah, well, see, I’m finna ride with that one. I’m with the people that shot at -what was the president’s name then? Who was that group of Puerto Ricans? JJ: Oh, Rafael Cancel Miranda and Lolita [00:28:00] Lebrón. RL: Yeah. I was very impressed with that. JJ: Oh, at that Blair? They shot up the Blair House. RL: Yeah. I don’t support the theory of any colony, not at all, but that’s got to be an issue. It’s got to be an issue. That’s why I was saying the college campuses. It’s time for -- we know why they killed Campos. We know why it’s a form of slavery, the colonies are. And that’s real key. We can’t ignore Puerto Rico because if we’re all warriors, then we all go fight in Puerto Rico also. 12 �JJ: And it’s an issue that’s going on today, I mean, with the Fiscal [00:29:00] Control Board. For us, it’s a big issue. It’s a major issue today. RL: I’ve been keeping up with it for years. JJ: Same thing we -- yeah. So, it’s a good idea. I think we need to work on that. I think it’s a good idea, and I think Ole Miss is good. It has to do with racism. We were fighting racism, so it has to do with that. RL: Mm-hmm. See, it’s perfect historically for world shame, but in particular here, we’re such a young nation, we can(’t) disorganize and reorganize. We’re such a young nation compared to England, France, Sweden. Historically, the Young Patriots already have a root also, and now you have the growth that’s going on in Ireland. We’d be amazed of the support [00:30:00] that the Young Patriots would be given by fine people that lived in Ireland. And also, they realized also because the Irish was just -- well, they’re around here, as you know. They joined, many of them -- and I’ve told people this. Many of the brothers joined it for that meal. They had been around (inaudible) months come across that water, weeks, weeks, weeks. And when they arrived, anyone who had a plate of food, if it was Washington, D.C. had a plate of food, clean clothes, or if it was the Confederacy who had a place, they didn’t have no slaves, right? [00:31:00] Then you got the Asian brother. He’s definitely a part of that coalition because when we looked at what he was oppressed, today you got a young youth that are in the movements, young. You got young Asians, young Chinese, Japanese, that once they’re educated, they will [form?] folks just from the point of view that they were 13 �about their rights also. But the real deal is us who’s sitting in here. We’re alive, man. We ain’t dead. JJ: This is the oral history, so I want to ask you, what was your father’s name, mother’s name, and any brothers or sister? RL: Yes, that’s a good one. All right, that’s my mom’s picture. Get that frame, that [00:32:00] big frame over there, Cha Cha. You’ll see my mom. You see, that’s what I look at at night before I go to bed. That’s my family. HT: This one? RL: All right, of my mom. Yeah. That’s my mother. JJ: Yeah. Hold on one second. Thanks, Hy. I appreciate it. RL: Now, she was born in Jasper, Texas, and the plantation that owned my people was the Adams Plantation in Jasper. My people were brought here as slaves in about 1832, before it was a state, and then her name is Selma Adams Lee. [00:33:00] And I’m reading -- JJ: You said Jasper? RL: Jasper, yeah, Jasper, Texas. This is the little town that my cousin -- JJ: Oh, so you’re coming home to Texas when you came here. RL: Huh? JJ: You’re coming home to Texas. RL: Oh, yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah, this is home. JJ: And your father was from here too? RL: Hm? JJ: Your father? 14 �RL: Yes. He was from the town way in the Timber Belt called Henderson, Texas, and my father’s -- my ancestors came from a plantation called the Flanagans. No, this is home. JJ: And the Flanagans, that was here too in Texas? RL: Huh? JJ: The Flanagans was here in Texas? RL: Yeah. JJ: What kind of plantation? What kind of vegetables, or was it sugar cane or sugar beets? RL: Huh? JJ: What did they grow on the plantation? RL: Oh, that’s cotton industry. JJ: Cotton industry? Okay. [00:34:00] RL: Yeah. Cotton, sugar cane, that was another, but cotton was definitely the major industry. JJ: Here in Texas? RL: Yes. JJ: Let me know if you get tired, but I think we’re doing good. RL: No, no. I’m not gonna get tired. The Adams family -- I’m sorry, I’m forgetting the names of them. The Flanagan family, very, very wealthy family, even today. JJ: But you grew up here, and what schools did you go to? RL: Yeah. Well, see, I went to school here, but summers, I would spend my time with my relatives. [00:35:00] See, I was the only member of the family that loved 15 �horses, you know, ponies clubs. Now, don’t tell nobody that, okay? (laughter) Ponies clubs, fishing and hunting, you know, I did things like I could fish without a hook, called mud fishing. That’s how deep I go, things like that, hunt. You know, I would go as far as northern Wisconsin to hunt. When I wanted to get a break, when I was in Chicago, when I wanted to get a break from what was happening in Chicago, I would just hit the highway, go straight up north, and I would camp out in the forest, and things like to camp, fish. And I always wore a cowboy hat, even to this day. Ray, pull [00:36:00] them (inaudible) down so Cha Cha can see my grandchildren. R: Okay. Yep. They’re over here? RL: Yeah. Everything is on that -- R: Oh, I see them. Yeah. RL: That’s a (inaudible) get a look at my kids and my wife and everyone, my son. R: These ones here, right? RL: Yeah. All right, yeah, and pull the other one now of her. They’re all there, Ray. R: Okay, hang on. RL: They’re all there. JJ: Point ’em this way. R: Oh, okay. I see them. JJ: Point ’em this way, Ray. R: Oh. Let me just put it on my (inaudible) so you can -- JJ: I can’t -- R: Oh, you can’t see that? 16 �JJ: Yeah. R: Yeah, how about I put ’em here? JJ: Well, yeah. Okay, probably. Okay, I see them better now. R: Okay, hang on. RL: When we would sit and talk about our programs [00:37:00] in Chicago, and two of the major programs that we discussed all the time, as you were doing the same, as Young Patriots was doing the same, how to feed people and free health clinics. My mom, when we -- I’m trying to think. Then we got down to guns. Now, initially, having guns wasn’t a big issue, Cha Cha. That was at the bottom of the list. But Cha Cha, the first raid that we had, the Chicago Police destroyed all our food, all our eggs, bacon. We had everything stored. [00:38:00] JJ: What do you mean, the first raid? You mean there were several? RL: Yeah, we had three raids on our office. The first one, they didn’t think we’d be able to put it back together, so the first one, the image of that raid is in the murder of Fred Hampton, that shootout, that raid. Mike filmed that first one, but the second one and the third, he didn’t have an opportunity to do that one. So, the first one was, it’s kinda embarrassing because when I arrived that morning, when they notified me and everything, I got over there. A little boy about eight years old (inaudible) go, he said, “You niggas ain’t shit.” He said, “Y’all done (inaudible) the white boys to come over here and eat all the cookies, [00:39:00] eat all the ice cream,” because we had storage abilities, “all the orange juice.” He said, “You niggas ain’t shit.” JJ: He was worried about the food, huh? He was worried about the food. 17 �RL: I knew then we had to really get it together now because we were losing our support because Black lives matter; Hispanic lives matter, you know; Patriot lives matter, mattered really then, as it does now, but not like when we came up. So, that’s when discussions of weapons would come in, to defend ourselves. JJ: So, you’re saying that the weapons, the guns were not the priority. RL: No. No, that was not. JJ: The priority was the programs. Is that what you’re saying? RL: Yeah, the programs first. Right. Yeah, man. JJ: I don’t want to put words -- what are you saying? RL: Oh, we couldn’t do that. JJ: Because this is your interview. RL: My quote was -- JJ: I agree with everything you’re saying. RL: I’ll tell the quote. Once they had outvoted me, [00:40:00] then I looked at Fred. I said, “Man, I gotta go home and talk to my momma. I know this shit is finna get serious.” And I drove home, literally, got the car fueled and everything, and drove to Texas. And my brother (inaudible) school, and my mother, of course, was shocked to see me standing there. JJ: So, let me get this straight. So, the focus was in organizing the community through the programs? RL: Yeah, service, service programs. JJ: Service programs? 18 �RL: Yeah. Free health clinic, breakfast program, also legal service. Dennis Connor had that. We wanted that, you know. Those were the things we wanted, groceries for people, because we had made contact with the grocery supply. [00:41:00] I organized what is called a mile square, because you gotta have turf. You’re not overwhelmed. Most organizers will go into a community, but they’ll go in and get overwhelmed by the sight of the environment of the city they’re living in. So, I preferred a mile square. But some people organized four blocks north, four blocks south, four blocks east, or four blocks west, and then they’ll look at the institutions that’s in that community, in those blocks, those little blocks. You really want to find a church because in the weekdays, churches are not using their kitchens, Baptist churches, [00:42:00] that is. They’re not. Or it’s like the Bruce Johnsons here. They’re a good example. They turn their resources seven days a week. So, the Black community, if you have four blocks north, south, east, and west, you want to first look for the churches. That’s first, the ministers, and talk with them. JJ: Bruce Johnson, when he died, when he was killed -- RL: When he was killed. JJ: How did you see that at that time? RL: It’s still paining me today, man. They killed him and his wife, man. All of this that we’re talking about is like yesterday to me, and to you. It’s still painful today, man. He was such a [00:43:00] kind man. No matter what it was, we do know that there is an unsolved murder of a minister and his wife for serving people. That much, I know. And I think about Bruce every day. Only an ex-Panther 19 �would forget about Bruce Johnson and Manny Ramos, Rodolfo. I can’t do it, you know. JJ: Because you know, they were also trying to blame the Young Lords. RL: Yeah. Right. But I knew better than that. JJ: And here we were, the victims. RL: Yeah, I knew better than that. And then the more I started learning of the role of the Red Squad, [00:44:00] they’ll do anything to people who -- the Red Squad was like a little informal CIA, snipers, assassins, because Fred Hampton’s (inaudible), that happens, you know? And so, that’s with me. That’ll always be with me, man. JJ: Now, what about Fred Hampton, Chairman Fred Hampton? After his death and that, what happened to the party in Chicago? RL: Psychologically, it died. That would’ve been like losing you. I’m using the word “psychologically,” but the spirit of the movement died with Fred. [00:45:00] It changed. Huey, in a sense, took over control of that excitement. See what I’m saying? And Huey called all the leadership out to Oakland. [Shay?] was living out there, Yvonne. Bobby went out there. And then the test also of our coalition was when Bobby Seale ran for mayor. And that’s when it hit me about here in Houston. But the leadership, well, our coalition, we all were leaders in that circle. All of us, you, that coalition [00:46:00] was a coalition of warriors. We didn’t kiss nobody’s ass. See, we all respected each other. We never argued over nothing, man. We never argued over a thing, man. That’s changed with Bobby and Fred, because our coalition was a corps. When you see the corps, the photographs of 20 �our press conferences, you know, Fred was there. Rush was there. You were there. Luis Cuza was there. Hy Thurman was there. And so, to get to my mom, after eating the best meal I’d had of my life, when I left, I wasn’t gonna have no greens and cornbread no more. JJ: That was your favorite, greens and cornbread? [00:47:00] RL: Oh, man, yeah. My wife will tell you, I will wear them (inaudible) out, man. JJ: (laughs) RL: And my mother listened to me, because see, my parents was proud that I was in the Panther Party, no resistance, no resistance. And I’m sure all of us had to talk with our parents. All of us, we had an explanation. We had to have an explanation of what we were doing because it was going to change all their lives and ours also. And when I got ready, (inaudible) getting ready to come back because I left the same day, turned around, came back, but my mother said something that still stayed with me, “If you live by the sword, you’ll die by that.” And then [00:48:00] you look at how Huey Newton died. We tend to forget that he wasn’t shot by no policeman. Well, I’ll tell you what. The boys in Oakland have kinda forgotten that he was shot by a dope dealer. Fred was killed. Rodolfo was killed. JJ: By the police. RL: Right, and Ramos was killed. Danny and John Howard, they were killed by policemen. 21 �JJ: But you know, Rudy Lozano in Chicago was a community leader, and he was killed by a drug dealer as well. So, what do you think? Do you think maybe that could’ve been set up through Red Squad or something? [00:49:00] RL: No doubt in my mind, now. None of us ever thought that we were being (inaudible). We thought that shit happened in Russia, (inaudible) because we had a lot of faith, man. We knew what we were doing, but we didn’t think there was actually some men that -- man, you went through hell. You’re a prime example of that, what they did to you, man, you. JJ: I appreciate it. Now, you were talking about your wife. How long have you been married? What’s her name? RL: Let me start on this one. (laughter) With the background I had politically and historically, if a Black woman wanted to go up the ladder, I’m the last nigga that she gonna want to marry ’cause you ain’t gonna go up the ladder marrying [00:50:00] a guy like me. Now, for the relationship, quiet relationship, they liked it, but they knew I wasn’t going up the ladder. I’m not gonna do it. And so, if I had 100 dollars for every time someone would say to me, “Bobby Lee, Bobby Lee, Bobby Lee, I’m just gonna love you till the day I die, but I just can’t live like this,” now that’s pretty much the quote. I would have 100 dollars for that, man. My wife is a Godsend. Here’s a woman -- JJ: What’s her name? RL: I call her Godsend, my wife. God sent my wife to me, and I’ve always stated -- JJ: Is she Puerto Rican? [00:51:00] 22 �RL: You know, (laughter) that’s a good one. Yeah, I think she got a lot of that Puerto Rican in her. JJ: A little Puerto Rican in her? RL: Yeah. JJ: (laughs) RL: But I tell when my wife and I started dating, people would see us out, but my theory then, with all of that shit, you always go to the left when the crowd’s going to the right, and keep it quiet and everything. But I always emphasized that the reason why she’s Godsent, my wife did not come to Houston, Texas to marry a nigga from Fifth Ward. I always said. Now, that’s a word that’s out of [00:52:00] her vocabulary, by the way. Cha Cha, she made some mistakes for her time. Not one mistake, and she never made it again, because you know, her language is Arabic. Her second language is Swahili. Her third language is English, and her education, degree, is in geography. F: No, just English. RL: Huh? F: English. RL: Yeah, but all them other studies, algebra, and I tell my partners, and they said, “Man, well, how you get along with her?” Blah, blah, blah. I said, “You know how I do it all these years? I know when to close my mouth and breathe through my nose.” JJ: (laughs) 23 �RL: (inaudible) because it’s culture, you know, and she’s been [00:53:00] a lifesaver right up to now. And see, you guys, to her, she’s been hearing about you for years. JJ: You been married how long? RL: How long, babe? F: Fifteen years. JJ: Fifteen? RL: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay, 15 years? RL: Now, for a revolutionary who don’t have no money, and he married someone going up the ladder, that’s a lifetime. Pretty soon, they’ll start saying, “Can we get a loaf a bread?” (laughter) But that’s important that we leave all of our work, like today. It’s going to affect people in a real positive way, man, of what we doing now. It’s going to have that effect. That’s very important because again, we got to remember, it’s a young nation, so we continue. I was [00:54:00] citing the third parties, as I think it is. Abraham Lincoln, that was a third party that eventually became the Civil War and freed us. The next third party would be -what’s my man’s name? What was the name of an organizer, (inaudible)? R: Which one? RL: Yeah, no, no. You know, I was giving the names of the -- R: Oh, yeah, you talked about -- JJ: That’s not Eugene? RL: (inaudible) 24 �R: Debs. JJ: Oh, Eugene Debs, no? R: Eugene Debs. RL: Yeah. All right. Lincoln; Eugene Debs, working-class poor. [00:55:00] R: (inaudible) RL: And then we move up to definitely like Cesar Chavez. It was a possible thirdparty movement, the Chicano movement. And then we move up to the Rainbow Coalition because we really became solid because see, when you ran for -- JJ: Alderman. RL: -- alderman, that was a sign, now, you know. That was a sign. And Barack Obama definitely picked that sign up. That was a sign for us, and it’s a sign for us now, but we got to have the history to lead. [00:56:00] We got to lead the history, man. And so, what we are doing now is very important. For example, I’m organizing in mile square, and I only tell very few people that because organizers are always, you gotta to know who share that with, who to not. And the fact of it is right in your face. Draw your turf, and knock over every door in that turf. And we do that. That’s what we do, and that’s what helped build the Panther Party, really, that mile square. JJ: One of the things that you did, because I remember those letters that we put in the archives, that’s when I saw your wife that first time because you had photos. So, one of the things that you tend to do, and you did that in ’69, [00:57:00] was to give information to everybody you talk to. RL: Yes. 25 �JJ: Why do you do that? RL: So they can make their copies. See, that’s why I call ’em up. The original copies, the originals of my art is at the Phogg Foundation, the South Austin Museum of Popular Art. That’s where all my originals are, the South Austin Museum of Popular Art. They have the originals. Then what I’ll do, I’ll color up. See, I’ll run -- my wife might run, in a week, almost a week, maybe 50 copies, and that’s when I color ’em, make ’em real pretty. Then I send ’em out to activists, politicians, even to Klansmen. See, some people put ’em on the walls, so what happens [00:58:00] is they’ll make their copies. See, they’ll end up running off -- some people, 30, 40, 50 copies. They’ll mail it to their people because everybody at least know 10 human beings, at least, and it’s real brief, and it speaks to them in a real brief way, because people spend thousands of dollars mailing these beautiful brochures and all that that a lot of folks won’t read. So, you gotta have it in folks’ experience. You gotta set the art where they know Cha Cha Jiménez. See what I’m saying? So, that’s why I spend a lot of time sitting and color them. (inaudible) I got my coloring book here. I’ll get up at one. I’ll get up around three o’clock, and then I’ll [00:59:00] go to work, you know, doing coloring. Let Cha Cha see that basket with the -- right there beside you. F: The box? RL: The box, yeah. Show you where I keep my working materials. JJ: And you send them? It’s like a message that you’re sending them? RL: Yeah, see, I’ll personally (inaudible). Yeah, that’s it there. See, I’ll personally -- F: (inaudible) 26 �JJ: I can get that from there? Okay, thank you. RL: So, see, what I do, as you know, is the -- JJ: Is that like a propaganda tool? RL: Yeah, we could use that. [01:00:00] JJ: I mean, what do you call it? RL: It’s a positive propaganda. JJ: It’s positive propaganda? RL: Yeah. It’s a positive. It’s a negative and positive about it. JJ: Do you feel that that reaches people? RL: Man, yeah, I know. Especially in this neighborhood over here, there are people calling, “Hey, man. You mad at me?” (laughs) No, man. We know we know it works in the Fifth Ward. I don’t know outside the Fifth Ward, but it works here, especially maybe a week before an election, when we announce who we run for. And see, our free health clinic is right up the street, so I have all the equipment that I want, copy machines and everything, you know, everything. But no, mostly the people who really profit by it is the working-class poor in Precinct One. And then [01:01:00] I’ll send what I call select pieces, you know, to you or Carol Gray, but 90 percent of them will go out in the Fifth Ward, Jasper, you know. Come on in. Come on in. JJ: And we can still finish it up. Give me some remarks that you want to leave, and then the -- RL: Oh, come on in here. Come in. Give me the poster. This is one of the original organizers. Pull up Cha Cha Jiménez. 27 �F1: I didn’t bring my -- RL: Cha Cha, you got your -- JJ: What? I don’t have a [brochure?]. RL: Huh? JJ: It’s C-H-A like the (inaudible), C-H-A, and then Jiménez is J-I-M-E-N-E-Z. J is like an H. RL: Yeah, he flew in. [01:02:00] JJ: Or you can just look up the Young Lords. That’s the group that we worked with, with the Panthers. F1: The Young Lords? JJ: Yeah, the Young Lords. RL: Did I give you a button? Did I give you any buttons? You got buttons, the Rainbow Coalition button? F1: No. You gave me some papers. RL: Oh. No, give you some buttons. Yeah, the Rainbow Coalition buttons might be over here or might be over there. F1: She has ’em. RL: Now, anybody in the family need some? F1: (inaudible) RL: Nephews? Okay. F1: Thank you. RL: Yeah, Google that right away because for the political arena, before he joined politics, he was the leader of close to 2,000 boys in Chicago, Young Lords. 28 �[01:03:00] Well, he’s like a Puerto Rican Malcolm X. I’ll put it that way. I’ve been knowing him from day one. She had three people in his organization that was killed by the police, you know. F1: Do you live in Chicago now? JJ: I’m actually in Michigan now. I’m in contact with Chicago yeah. RL: You got some pins for her? F: Yes. RL: Yeah, give her the Rainbow Coalition button. She got ’em? F: Uh-huh. RL: Okay. If you want some more, but pull up Cha Cha Jiménez. F1: I remember. RL: Okay. All right. All power to the people. F1: All right. RL: And come up any time you want and chat with me. F1: All right. (inaudible). RL: I’ll never stop organizing. [01:04:00] JJ: (inaudible) We can -- RL: No, no. We have the time (inaudible). Yes, sir, Cha Cha. We (inaudible). Now, since you have to ask me things that you want to know, but like I was saying, if you want to start a novice out in organizing, as you well know, start him out on his own block, but he’s got to identify some resources that he’ll have. He gotta be able to call the community centers, know what they have to offer, food banks, [blawie, blawie?]. So, he contact people, introduce himself, he’ll have a resource 29 �to help him. That’s all we’d do in the communities. Like my wife, she work at Harris County Social Service, [01:05:00] thanks to her brother-in-law being a boss. And she was able to get this job and a degree in it. She taught at Arabic private schools. But no, man, we on a real good roll, man. The only reason this thing won’t roll, we don’t get the information out. We gotta get it out now ’cause Trump is already everywhere, has defined America, and Trump defined it as being white nationalist. And Young Lords, from day one till now, we don’t define that. Our issue is Puerto Rico. Those people that’ll go against [01:06:00] that would be the Hispanic, Spanish, rich ruling class have controlling interests in Puerto Rico, as opposed to the masses, people which is over there. And folks don’t know that. They don’t understand. Many people, that is, don’t understand, man, the pressure of the Puerto Rican people. It’s not them sitting around getting drunk. That’s the energy the media is giving. When they show our brothers there, they kind of sometimes show lavish living. “Why do they want to have a -- they doing good.” You know? But they don’t know about the assassination attempt that was the reason. [01:07:00] That was the reason, but they blow that up. Oh, man. They start out with that assassination attempt. JJ: So, you mean the assassination attempt in -- RL: Huh? JJ: It was in 1950? RL: Right, and Truman, that’s the one they was trying to get. JJ: They focused on that in Puerto Rico? RL: That’s right. 30 �JJ: So, in the Rainbow Coalition, you were organizing that. Were you planning on that, or it just came about? How was that? JJ: No. I was invited to speak at the Church of Three Crosses, me, I forget, me and another Panther. And I accepted to go there. What had happened, the people [01:08:00] that rolled the program out mixed us up for the same program, which that wasn’t no -- God wanted that to happen, okay? And so, when I arrived that night, I was the only Black there, me and that Panther. I was the only Black there, and they didn’t know that I was there because I always felt that you wear the beret and the leather for certain effects. But then you just later put on your everyday clothing. Guys were getting busted in the party for being in the car going to get one of those, which I love them, Polish sandwich, and get [01:09:00] arrested over supper. So, I just tell people, we got Chicago and Oakland Panthers. There’s a big difference in Oakland. You can do that. Berkeley, Cal was that. Cal State was not, you know? But when -- you gonna ask a question? JJ: I gotta turn this off for a second. (break in audio) Okay. So, we were asking what? JJ: How did I meet the Young Patriots? Like I said, it was a lawyer, activist lawyer that invited me to the Church of Three Crosses, and it was still all white. I was the only Black there, me and a guy named Lionel. I think he was from Mississippi. [01:10:00] And so, when I arrived, we sat in the front row, and the Lords had spoken a week earlier, and they invited the Lords to talk. I mean the Young Patriots was invited a week earlier. And then, the committee agreed to it, 31 �and this lawyer then invited me to come. So, we got there the next week. I had never, ever, man, had witnessed white people attacking white people. [01:11:00] I had never seen that. I’m from the South, you know. And there was a lot of confrontation in there. Michael just edited. (inaudible) just edited. See, Michael got almost four decades of filming us here in Jasper, and you know, the projects he had. But I was stunned to see that. It was a change, an evolution, for me to see that. And so, the second time we came, I’m sitting, waiting on Hy and them to finish and Junebug to finish. They (inaudible). They had everything. The only thing they didn’t cover, let’s see, [01:12:00] anything that they were -- shit, they covered everything, police brutality, tenement housing, tuberculosis, welfare. They covered it. They were speaking for me also. So, when things quieted down, the meeting, when it was over, the minister allowed us to go into their chamber to talk, and wonderful meeting, man. Wasn’t no tension, nothing like that, and then that’s when we had an informal structure that was placed together. The biggest issue in Uptown was our issue, or police brutality. And I knew that much [01:13:00] that I should take a role to prove ourselves. That’s first that the warrior must do if you come from another camp. You put yourself out there to show the people that you’re willing to put yourself on the line for them. What’s more bigger than putting your ass on the line with the Chicago Police, you know? But then that’s when we went up to Uptown and came back. This time, I had (inaudible) with me and Ruby with me. And we spent a lot of time up there, but after about two weeks, I knew it was time to tell Fred that they had molded our 32 �relationship. And Fred just naturally just fit into it, and [01:14:00] it’s all history now, you know, all history. JJ: So, you told him, and what was the reaction? RL: Well, Fred already was a Socialist. Fred already had strong ties with the politics of working-class struggle. I had, you know. Now, you had many Panthers that left. They just couldn’t handle it, which I understood that because we’re talking about the ’60s, man, when churches were being bombed, and Dr. King was killed, Malcolm. We spent a lot of time on that, and I understood that. But many came back, as I stated. And it was all a reeducation process. With a Southern white, you start with John Brown, man, then move on up to Lincoln, [Dell Rowe?], [01:15:00] these white boys, and they (inaudible) white boys. But you saw with John Brown. You saw with John Brown. A lot of cats don’t even know him because in the South, they don’t talk about John Brown, no class revolution, Cha Cha. If they write anything about John Brown, they always make it sound like he was a maniac or mentally crazy, all of that. Even the movies were projecting him as being mentally unstable, but there’s no parks in the South for John Brown. There is no schools, no streets, none of that, man. [01:16:00] So, this is it. JJ: What are your strongest memories there of Chicago, the organizing work there? RL: Memories? JJ: I mean, that you think, you know -- RL: I’ma simply answer. Just coming to Chicago, that’s the best I can put in words, because it changed me. It made me the person I am right now, and so for me, it’s a lifestyle change for me that has lasted to this day, [01:17:00] because it’s 33 �not only affected me and not only affected what we try to do in Chicago and everything, man. We got a political base in Houston, you know? So, that, Chicago, I’ll put it this way. If you want to be a musician, you go to New York City. If you want to be an actor, you go to California. You want to be a labor organizer, community organizer, you go to Chicago. JJ: Why is that? RL: I think it’s just the nature of the population. It’s the nature of the nation that we [01:18:00] live in. Chicago had the basic massive industry. Back of the yards, there’s always been a struggle of the ethnic group communities that you could really identify. You knew where the Polish communities were. You knew where the Irish communities were, German communities. You knew where they were, then where the Young Lords was. You knew that community. You knew where the Black communities were. And since that’s been a working-class environment always, then what you’re doing always, organizing and making lives better for people. And a lot has changed in Chicago but not like we would like to. So, that’s how I’ve split it up. JJ: What do you want the Chicago boys to know [01:19:00] about Bobby Lee? RL: I was a good boy, good man. I spent my life there for them, and for me. That’s what I want people to know. And really making that possible, you and Hy and (inaudible). It’s simple [01:20:00] as that, man. JJ: I appreciate it. I appreciate that. Any final thoughts (inaudible)? RL: Oh, wow. JJ: (laughs) 34 �RL: I found a peace, and I added to it. The Rainbow Coalition is like the people on one hand. That’s what we were. When one was in pain, Cha Cha, Hy, Junebug, Bobby McGuiness, [01:21:00] I’m giving him a car, man. I ain’t seen Bobby in 40 years. So, when any member of the coalition is in pain, we’re all in pain. We all gotta watch out for each other, man. And when the spirit is in pain, then your whole body is in pain. We won’t survive. If we all work hard and help each other and never stop organizing, never stop serving the people, man, and we know this, I’ve said what I would teach my organizing classes, and I used to tell Fred, the people on the West Side, [01:22:00] they don’t read The Red Book. They read The Black Book (Bible?), and that every person in that Bible, and I’ve said it thousands of times, man, every person in that Bible are organizers or servers of the poor. That’s what I want people to remember, that when they read their Bible, every person in that Bible, they lived and died serving the poor. JJ: Take a break? RL: No. What you want? JJ: We’ll take a break. I don’t want to exhaust you. RL: Okay. [01:23:00] I didn’t want my wife seeing me crying. HT: She’s talking to someone up in hospice. (break in audio) JJ: It is really (inaudible). That’s what we got in common. Everybody got the stuff like that in common. 35 �RL: Yeah, I’ll tell you, (inaudible) years ago, just a real good joke because you’re going to jail. (laughs) Yeah, I said, “You’re going to jail. (inaudible) three or four good jokes, because you’re going to jail.” JJ: Right. “And you better make sure.” RL: (inaudible) “Eventually, you will go to the Chicago jail.” JJ: That’s going to keep you alive. RL: (laughs) Oh, that’s funny, man. While you’re here, I’d like [01:24:00] to meet Miss Katz. JJ: Who’s Katz? She works here? RL: She’s in Chicago, Marilyn Katz. JJ: Oh, Marilyn Katz, I know Marilyn Katz. HT: Yeah, she’s got a (inaudible). She’ll be talking to you today. RL: Okay. Yeah, I never met here, but she’s always on my letter list. JJ: Okay, she’s on your letter list. RL: Yeah, (inaudible). She got some colorful characters involved, because I knew of her activities, and so I wanted to meet her (inaudible). JJ: She was proactive in the community. RL: Very. JJ: Very proactive. HT: She was the first person I met when I came to Chicago. [01:25:00] JJ: Oh, she is? She’s still active? Is she still active? HT: Oh, yeah, she’s on our board. Yeah, she’s very cool. 36 �RL: I like her (inaudible) work, and I thanked her for the things she’s done for the people. But yeah, man, any new thoughts on what we been talking about? JJ: I know when we were talking yesterday, we were talking about your oral history, so we were starting to talk about your brothers and sisters, how many that we have and where you grew up. How was it like growing up here? RL: See, my oldest sister’s name, Dolly, and she was the one that was born in Jasper, [01:26:00] but again, in the forest. And she was about seven years old, she got real sick. JJ: You call it the forest? RL: Yeah, we lived in the forest. We say Jasper, but we have a Post Office box that say Jasper. We live in the forest, in the woods, in like a village, and she got real sick one night, and my dad and them tried to rush to her to the hospital to get her to Jasper, but during segregation, they wouldn’t take her. So, then they tried to drive to Galveston, and she didn’t make it. She died. [01:27:00] JJ: Because of the segregation, she had to go a long route. RL: Yeah. See, my oldest brother, Jesse Lee, he was a pretty strong dude, man. He should’ve never been down in the South with the temper that he had, you know? And he wouldn’t take too much insults from the white supremacy brothers. And all they said to him was (inaudible). And Jesse was sentenced. And he spent [01:28:00] a lot of time on the farm, and my brother would stay there quite a while in the prison. We knew he was getting beat and everything, and he died in prison. Then it came down to me and my brother named Thurman, which is a question that I have a brother named Thurman, and then the guy that don’t have 37 �the same look, that don’t have the same blood but have the same spirit. Where Hy Thurman? JJ: He’s right here. RL: Hy Thurman. My brother, and that’s Irish, real Irish, and then we go on down the list, (inaudible). [01:29:00] JJ: What schools did you go to? RL: Atherton Elementary School. Then I went to Phillis Wheatley. The Atherton Elementary School, E.O. Smith, he was a labor organizer in the Fifth Ward (inaudible), and my parents (inaudible) also, and you know, I was raised around union talk. So, from there, from E.O. Smith, I went to Phillis Wheatley High School. Have you ever heard of her, Cha Cha? JJ: Who? What was her name? RL: Phillis [01:30:00] Wheatley. JJ: No. Was that the name of the high school? RL: Yeah. JJ: Okay, I can look it up. RL: Pull her name up. JJ: We can do that later. RL: She was the first Black published poet. She did a poem on George Washington. JJ: So, you love a lot of poetry, right? Was that poem you were saying? RL: You know who inspired that was Al “Bunchy” Carter. I added to it, added another word in, (inaudible) it a little bit, you know. But no, I’d added that to that. Bunchy Carter, he was the Panther that was shot and killed [01:31:00] in LA. 38 �JJ: In Los Angeles? RL: Yeah. With Ericka Huggins. JJ: That’s right. So, what’s your organizing here in -- because you moved here right after Fred Hampton? RL: No. No, I didn’t move. I really (inaudible) later, May 1960, when I would pretty much officially go home. May 1960, no, that’s not right. Oh, man. JJ: ’Cause it happened in ’69. RL: Yeah. He died in ’69. [01:32:00] JJ: Right, so it was after that, sometime. RL: I came May 1960. No. I came -- JJ: Was it a lot of years afterwards? RL: No. I came home May of 1970. JJ: You know, we got a chance to look at some of the masks that you have in here. RL: Huh? JJ: Some of the masks, African masks. RL: Yes. JJ: That you have in your living room. We didn’t get any photos, but we were looking. They mentioned something about they symbolize different things? RL: They symbolize the 29 Panthers that got killed. [01:33:00] It’s symbolizing Manuel Ramos. It symbolizes [Ronaldo?]. JJ: Julio Roldan. RL: It’s hard to pronounce his name. JJ: Yeah, no, that’s name. 39 �RL: He’s a Puerto Rican brother out of -- JJ: New York. RL: -- out of New York. JJ: Yeah, Julio Roldan, they got killed, yeah. RL: He was shot. New York. JJ: Yeah, Julio Roldan, they got killed, yeah. RL: He was shot. JJ: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. RL: Yeah, he was shot by a cop. JJ: Right. RL: That represents, when you look at all those names, I know what it is, but keeping that, it represents the warrior instinct. Other people have forgotten Manuel, and [01:34:00] a lot of folks have never even heard of Jake Winters. JJ: Jake Winters? RL: Yeah, Jake was November 1969. That’s when Jake had a shootout on the South Side, and then later, the next month, that’s when COINTELPRO came after us. Where Hy? F: He’s here. JJ: Yeah, it’s your medicine. You’re getting low. Is that what that is? NURSE: Your light is on. Can we help you? F: It is beeping. RL: Say what? JJ: I think probably it needs to get changed. 40 �RL: Oh, yeah, that. [01:35:00] F: His machine is beeping. N: Thank you. JJ: Thank you, Faiza. I appreciate that. RL: (inaudible) F: No. RL: (inaudible) F: Yeah. RL: All those masks on the wall, that whole wall were all warriors. I know it. My wife know it. People who come in, then they see. Well, they see the house is different when they walk in there. They know that (inaudible). You know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna wait (inaudible). Did I introduce y’all? JJ: Did you -- what was that? [01:36:00] F: Yeah, (inaudible) know all of them know. Yeah, when she sees them on the street, she knows them. Yeah. RL: Yeah, we’ll wait until Cha Cha, he gonna catch a flight, and he gotta get on up. That’s a long drive. JJ: Are you kicking me out already? RL: No. Well, I’ll keep you here. Imagine all of us here in Houston, you know? Imagine all of us in Houston, man. So, when are you going back to Puerto Rico? JJ: You know, because of the project, we were able to get some funding. RL: Thank you. I’m sorry that I -- N: You’re welcome. No problem. 41 �JJ: We were able to get a little funding. I went four times. I hadn’t been there like in 20 years, and I went four times. I went in one year. But I was working. That’s during the recent oral histories and stuff. RL: I’d like to go there. [01:37:00] JJ: I was telling Ray that your house is like Puerto Rico because you got the parrots, and you got the palm trees on the other side. But for me, everything, it looks like Puerto Rico. RL: And the birds. R: (inaudible) JJ: And everyone -- (laughs) F: There were a few blackbirds. The others, because it’s all cloudy and overcast, so they haven’t been there yet, but there were a few blackbirds. RL: Oh, the red-wing blackbirds or the ravens? F: No, the ravens. RL: Okay. Yeah, man, we got some beautiful birds, man. JJ: No, it’s nice. It looks like they replanted the trees after they took it away from Mexico. They put the northern trees in Texas. (laughs) They used to be palm trees, but after they took it from Mexico, they put northern trees. F: They put (inaudible). (laughs) HT: Yeah, Northerners taking over everything. [01:38:00] JJ: Yeah. (laughs) I saw pine trees. That’s for snow. You know what I’m saying? But they’ll make up anything. They’ll come up with anything. (laughs) 42 �RL: Then, Cha Cha, after that, man, I was real fortunate to have a friend named [Laddie Earl Altham?]. We met each other in nursery school, and I didn’t wanna run no track. I was mostly into jazz, into music, because I was raised around nightclubs. I had that (inaudible). But when Laddie was 15, he drowned, and he already taught me how to come off the block. Where Hy? JJ: He’s right over here. F: He’s right here. [01:39:00] HT: I’m here, buddy. RL: Okay. And when Laddie drowned, we had a school athlete award banquet when I was in the band. You know, the band boys, they get the girls, you know. (laughter) You was going to be a band boy or gang leader, one or the other. JJ: You had a plan, huh? (laughs) RL: And I went out, man. My first track meet, I won. And I trained a lot with the coaches I had, and my first track meet, I won, and I won again. JJ: That’s pretty good. RL: My wife can tell you about all the silver and gold medals and things like that, and I kept winning and winning, [01:40:00] and it took me to college on a scholarship. JJ: Oh, you got into college on a scholarship? RL: Yeah, I got a college scholarship, Southern University in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. But I had signed up for VISTA. That’s what got me directed to VISTA. I was in college though already, and the movement, man, and if you have any tendency, like I showed you the bottom of my heel, I’m born with the mark of Achilles. JJ: See who? 43 �RL: Achilles. JJ: Achilles, they call it Achilles’ heel. RL: Heel, yeah. They’ll call it Achilles. It’s a medical term. JJ: So, you’re part Indian too. RL: You see, most athletes, they get it. [01:41:00] It’s a sprain on their heels. F: Yeah, they recognize it. JJ: Cherokee? F: Yeah, Cherokee and Choctaw or something. JJ: Cherokee and what? F: Choctaw. RL: Yeah, that’s word I was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). I was trying to separate it from the mythology to the medical, you know, and from that point, Cha Cha, right on till today. But that’s a good question there, about family. I love talking about family. That’s a good question, man. JJ: Because you’re a family person, or why do you like to talk about the family? RL: Huh? F: He said, “Why do you like to talk about family?” RL: That’s the ultimate talk. Then [01:42:00] when you go outside, then you talk about kicking ass, (laughs) organizing, organizing. JJ: So, you go from family to kicking ass. (laughs) RL: Yeah. When you go home, you’re talking to your brothers and sisters and uncles. You know, you’re listening. Then you have an all kinda home-cooking meal, cakes and, you know. That’s a genuine conversation because family, we 44 �wouldn’t be who we are now, man, if it wasn’t for how our family raised us. And yes, everybody have a crazy uncle. (laughter) But I got Thurman like that Archie Bunker of the family. (inaudible) get a job, man. JJ: (laughs) RL: That’s Thurman, [01:43:00] a good man. He’s a good man. JJ: How did the family -- did you see that with the Rainbow Coalition? How did that play? RL: It was at play. JJ: Was that related to that? RL: Yeah. The Rainbow Coalition represented family because like I was saying, if one of the fingers on one hand is paining, everybody paining, you know? And then, all of a sudden, the whole body pain, like with me with this cancer. My whole family, they cool and everything, but my whole family is affected by it because they feel like you guys do, ’cause we family. So, family, [01:44:00] ain’t nothing like it. Once mom’s gone and grandma’s gone and, you know, grandparents, you know, the people that come to you, right or wrong, my daddy used to say -- excuse this language -- but my daddy used to say, “Junior, if you get in a fight, blah, blah, blah, blah, fight hard, son, because I’d rather for another motherfucker be dead than you.” (laughter) JJ: That’s great. RL: Yeah, man. My family, that’s what we doing, Ray, you, Faiza, you know. F: Hy. RL: Hy. 45 �JJ: Hy. RL: It’s family. And it’s serious family when you wake up one morning, like Hy did, and [01:45:00] in the Washington Post. JJ: Okay, Washington Post. RL: Yeah, Washington Post. JJ: I saw that article. It’s a good article. RL: Yeah, right? That’s a hell of a shot there, man. And we all family. You put family as your root, as your root because all struggle (inaudible) community (inaudible) and be a family. Then it’s spreaded out. We wanted our nephews and folks in the house to be safe from the police, to have jobs, [01:46:00] you know, decent housing, healthcare. We wanted our mothers to have pretty dresses. We wanted that. So, I’m waiting, Cha Cha. JJ: You’re waiting for me to say something? RL: I thought you wanted to ask another question. JJ: No, just, you know, we were talking about family, and I was just kind of letting you -- the importance of that, and I think you described it well. So, we’re leaving pretty soon. I just wanted to know, what do you want me and the other people to remember? I know I asked you that before, but I didn’t ask you what you want me to make sure that we should remember. And you know, when I’m going back, since I’m going back. [01:47:00] RL: What we been doing, years ago, right on till now, is keep serving people. If it’s just three or four hours a day you do something, you know, like my mom would say, “Save your own soul.” Do something. That’s pretty much how simple it is, 46 �man. I’m excited, just the thought of a third party. I’m excited about the idea of having a big conference at Ole Miss. We can do that now. We can do that. We got a man in this room that personally knows (inaudible). Those are realities. Now y’all better get to rolling ’cause (inaudible). JJ: Okay, we’re going to get you rolling. RL: I’m serious. [01:48:00] If they have a record, man, don’t [leave it to the?] law. JJ: I appreciate hanging out with yesterday all day, and we had a good conversation. It’s the longest time I’ve been in the hospital, (laughs) but I appreciate it. RL: Yeah, I appreciate it too. JJ: Talking with Faiza and Hy, that man from the Young Patriots, and of course my friend Ray here. So, I really appreciate the time, the opportunity. RL: Yeah, man. JJ: I love you, my brother. I appreciate that. RL: We’ll get together. If I’m not here, then Faiza’ll be here. She know the history. She know what to do. You know, that’s why I wanted her to step up front, so you can hear her and her skill for sitting and talking with you. Yeah, Faiza breaks the stereotype. JJ: (inaudible) [01:49:00] Okay, so we’re going to get ready to take off. RL: Yeah, you don’t want to miss that (inaudible), man. JJ: No, but thank you. Thank you very much. RL: They got all that security you got to go through, all that shit now, man. HT: Don’t forget your peanuts on the plane. 47 �JJ: Oh, yeah, then they got peanuts. They give you peanuts, and you give you security and shake you down. I asked the other guy, “Why are you shaking?” (laughter) I’m just kidding. Okay. RL: Okay. END OF VIDEO FILE 48 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dfa2fb63402b2ad10cd9067e844fd1de.mp4 4ea7799a93377bb599fe92fbd2a5e07f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Robert E. Lee vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Bob Lee o Robert E. Lee creció en el "bosque" cerca de Jasper, TX. Su familia trabajaba en una plantación de algodón. Uno de sus hermanos Franco se convirtió en un comisionado del condado de la 5 ª Sala de Houston por más de 30 años. En 1969, Bob Lee se convirtió en Subdirector de Campo del Capítulo de Illinois del Partido de las Panteras Negras. Su trabajo incluyó Uptown donde comenzó a trabajar con la Organización de Jóvenes Patriotas. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lee_Robert Title A name given to the resource Robert E. Lee video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Robert Description An account of the resource Bob Lee or Robert E. Lee grew up in the “forest” near Jasper, TX. His family worked on a cotton plantation. One of his brothers Franco became a county commissioner of the 5th Ward of Houston for over 30 years. In 1969 Bob Lee became a Deputy Field Marshall for the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party. His worked included Uptown where he started working with the Young Patriots Organization and the Young Lords. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives