3 24 165 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5348b862d939c1f881f0821a02db5654.pdf 9854851be72afedddaf4725f6b6ad9d4 PDF Text Text Young   L ords   In  Lincoln  Park   Interviewee:  Rainbow  Coalition   Interviewers:  Jose  Jimenez   Location:  Grand  Valley  State  University  Special  Collections   Date:  10/23/2016   Runtime:  01:48:03       Biography  and  Description               The  Black  Panther  Party  for  Self  Defense,  founded  by  Bobby  Seale  and  Huey  P.  Newton  celebrated   their  50th  Anniversary  on  October  20-­‐23  2016  in  the  Oakland  California  Museum.  Primary   organizers  in  the  Host  Committee  included:  Clark  Bailey,  Erica  Huggins,  Emory  Douglas,  Aaron   Dixon  and  Black  Panther  Party  Chairwoman  Elaine  Brown.  One  of  the  primary  events  of  the   conference  and  gala  was  a  panel  discussion  about  the  original  Rainbow  Coalition  begun  by  Illinois   Chapter  Chairman  Fred  Hampton.  The  moderator  was  Aaron  Dixon  and  panelists  included  founder   of  the  Young  Lords  Movement,  Jose  (Cha-­‐Cha)  Jimenez;  Stan  McKinney  of  the  Illinois  BPP;  Co-­‐ founder  of  the  Young  Patriots  Organization,  Hy  Thurman;  a  leader  of  the  Palestinian  Hamas  Bos   Campaign,  Dr.  Rabab  Abdulhadi;  Pam  of  the  Asian  American  Alliance  and  the  Red  Guard;  Professor   Harvey  of  the  I  Wor  Kuen;  and  Lenny  Foster  of  the  Navajo  Nation  and  the  American  Indian   Movement  (A.I.M.).   �Cha-­‐Cha  Jimenez  discusses  the  origins  of  the  Rainbow  Coalition  and  the  first  time  the  Young  Lords   met  Fred  Hampton  in  February  1969  right  after  the  Lords  non  -­‐  violently  occupied  a  police   community  workshop  meeting.  He  discusses  the  dual  struggles  of  Puerto  Ricans:  civil  rights  in  the   barrios,  and  human  rights  for  the  Puerto  Rican  Nation.   Stan  McKinney  discusses  CointelPro  and  its  use  of  gangs  describing  how  one  gang  was  shooting  in   the  projects  at  children  attending  the  BPP  Breakfast  for  Children  Program.  He  also  describes  the   charisma  of  Fred  Hampton  to  be  able  to  work  with  at  risk  youth  and  details  Fred’s  plotted  murder   by  the  FBI  CointelPro  and  State’s  Attorney  Hanrahan.   Hy  Thurman  discusses  the  origins  of  the  Young  Patriots  Organization  and  its  split  up  when  some  of   them  became  the  Young  Patriots  Party.  He  explains  that  the  organization  wanted  to  keep  the   organizing  focused  on  the  neighborhoods  and  explains  that  they  did  wear  the  confederate  flag   when  they  walked  into  the  bars  of  Uptown,  Chicago  but  it  most  Southern     Whites  did  not  realize  what  it  represented.  It  became  a  tool  for  discussing  racism  and  organizing  in   their  community.   Rabab  Abdulhadi  explained  that  she  grew  up  under  the  Israeli  Occupation  and  that  Palestinian  boys   would  sometimes  use  sexist  remarks  and  gestures  at  the  women  but  it  could  be  easily  resolved  by   telling  their  fathers  and  families.  However,  if  an  Israeli  soldier  would  attack  a  Palestinian  woman   the  woman  she  would  have  to  remain  silent  for  fear  that  it  would  jeopardize  the  lives  of  their   Palestinian  relatives.  She  explained  the  love  of  Palestinians  for  Mohammad  Ali  or  Cassius  Clay  and   said  that  her  parents  said  that  Angela  Davis  was  framed,  “the  proof,”  they  said  is,  “racism.”   Professor  Harvey,  is  a  lecturer  at  UC  Berkeley  and  recalls  being  part  of  the  I  Wor  Kuen  and  also   going  to  the  Black  Panther  office  in  Oakland  to  create  flyers  because  they  had  no  office  or  supplies.   He  participated  in  petition  drives  as  a  form  of  protest  and  says  that  it  was  a  duty  not  remain  silent   while  negativity  is  everywhere,  “things  get  worst”  she  said.   Pam  of  the  Asian  American  Alliance  and  the  Red  Guard  explained  how  her  Grandfather  left  China  to   work  on  the  construction  of  the  Panama  Canal  and  never  returned.  She  said  that  the  Red  Guard   started  a  Breakfast  for  Children  program  near  Jackson  Street,  in  San  Francisco’s  China  Town.  They   were  proud  of  Richard  Aoki  who  was  Chinese  and  a    Field  Marshall  for  the  original  Black  Panthers.   She  also  stated  that  they  were  Chinese  and  Chinatown  was  Chinese  but  it  took  the  Black  Panther   Party  to  teach  them  about  the  Red  Book  of  Mao  Tse  Tung.   Lenny  Foster  began  thanking  everyone  proudly  speaking  in  his  Navajo  language  because  that  is   what  he  spoke  growing  up.    During  World  War  II  Navajo  US  veterans  were  called  code  talkers   because  they  could  infiltrate  the  Japanese  and  speak  in  their  native  tongue  without  being  detected.   His  dad  was  also  a  U.S.  Marine  radio  operator.  When  Lenny  attended  Arizona  Western  College  he   joined  their  baseball  team  and  was  pretty  good.  He  said  then,  “  he  realized  he  did  not  have  any   money.”  On  a  trip  to  Denver,  Colorado  he  met  the  leaders  of  the  American  Indian  Movement   (A.I.M.).  He  asked  the  panel  to  help  him  try  to  get  the  Cleveland  Indians  to  stop  using  their  current   mascot  which  insults  Native  Americans.   �Transcript AARON DIXON: Come on up here, Cha-Cha. We got to get started. I’m sorry we’re starting so late but there was a little confusion and the last time I went a little overboard. You know how when you go to church, things last a little longer. But we want to get started for this very important panel that we have here. I want everybody to come on in and sit down and we still got more people coming in. We got a line out there of people or is this it? Okay. So my name is Aaron Dixon, I’m on the Host Committee helping to organize this event. And my job was to bring in a lot of the organization that we had worked with in the past and I’m just [00:01:00] really happy to have the original Rainbow Coalition up here. (applause) We have a couple more people to add to this Coalition because the Black Panther Party started very early in 1967 in terms of creating coalitions. That was one of the most important aspects of what the Black Panther Party did is brought coalition building. One of the first coalitions that the Black Panther Party started was with, was in 1967 with the free, the Peace and Freedom Party. Through the Peace and Freedom Party, the Black Panther Party ran political offices. It was [00:02:00] mostly symbolic. They ran Eldridge Cleaver for President, they ran Huey P. Newton and other Black Panther Party members. In Seattle, we ran Black Panther Party members also on the Peace and Freedom Party ticket in 1968. Then there was the Brown Beret Coalition that began in 1968 in Los Angeles and beginning to work with the Latino community. In 19was it ’69 in Chicago when Fred Hampton organized what is known as the 1 �Rainbow Coalition. The Rainbow Coalition was made up of the Young Lords under Cha-Cha. I call him Cha-Cha. Now, he’s know as José, but I (laughter) -- I [00:03:00] hope he doesn’t mind me calling him Cha-Cha because that’s how I identify him, okay? Also, the other part of that coalition was the Young Patriot Pary. I remember Preacherman as being one of the frontmen of the Patriot Party. But we have Hy Thurman with us today who is also one of the important figures of the Patriot Party at that time. (applause) We also have Stan McKinney from the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party (applause) and we also have Lenny Foster with AIM. (applause) We also -- I’m going to be bringing up Professor [00:04:00] Abdulhadi (inaudible). Do you want to stand for a second? She’s a Palestinian. (applause) I learned about the Palestinian struggle through the Black Panther Party newspaper as did many other people. And ever since then, we’ve always had a very strong connection to the Palestinian movement. So we’re going to bring her up at some point. We also have -- also in the, I forgot to mention that also in the Bay Area, the Black Panther Party had began very early to have coalitions in the Asian community. The Red Guard in the Chinese community, as well, so we’re going to be bringing up Harvey. Harvey, you want to stand? (applause) [00:05:00] He was with the Asian American Political Alliance and that was very early on when the Black Panther Party began with that coalition. But we’re going to go ahead and get started on the Rainbow Coalition panel. First of all, I’m going to have everybody introduce themselves, say a little bit about themselves, how they got involved in their political organizations, and a little bit about themselves, and then we’ll move forward. We’ll start with Cha- 2 �Cha. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so I was born in Puerto Rico. We came with the Great Migration in the late ’40s and ’50 to Chicago. New York already had a large Puerto Rican community. [00:06:00] But at that time, the Midwest was beginning to develop. So our main issue, our main question at that time as families were that our parents were more like pilgrims and that and they were just trying to get the church service in Spanish, in English, basically. So they were not political at all or anything like that and the youth, because there was no one looking out for us or trying to figure out programs for us, got involved with gangs and that. So we got involved with urban street gangs like any other city and that. And so got into a gang epidemic, things got a little bad. But the people, the families, they developed a community through the churches and that and they even started working with the youth, with the gangs and that. So we learned a lot of organizing from them. What happened is that Mayor Daley in 1955 when he came to office, [00:07:00] he wanted back the cities. The White Flight had gone to the suburbs and he wanted to bring them back in to increase the tax dollars and to basically take over the lakefront and the downtown areas of Chicago. But we happened to be in the way, with the Great Black Migration, the Native American community was being pushed out of the reservations and that. The poor white, the hillbillies were there in the community. Even some of the white ethnic gangs were there. So they went, we were in the way and they were, the working-class people were being kicked out to the suburbs but to the poor areas. You know, it was the segregation. It was the segregation was basically at that 3 �time. That’s the way we got to look at it because we call it sweet terms today like gentrification and it’s segregation. If we see it that way, then we can see a way to fight it back because we have a long, a precedent. The civil rights movement was [00:08:00] fighting segregation and all that. So we have a way to fight them back if we look at that. But I’m going to keep it short because this is an introduction. (laughter) So anyway, in the late ’60s, everything was happening in Lincoln Park. That’s where you had the Democratic Convention. We were there in the street corner just hanging out watching our neighborhood getting evicted. And I went to jail at that time from the gang, usually getting involved with substance abuse. So I got involved with that, wanted to clean up, wanted to go to confession, and this is a Young Lord from New York right here, all right? (laugher) But anyway, we set up, we followed the Black Panther Party at that time. We learned from the Panthers and that and we set up the same thing in our community. Chairman Fred Hampton became friends with us. We had taken over this police station nonviolently. We went in there (laughter) [00:09:00] but we basically went in and took a couple busloads to the police station. And inside there, we put our purple berets on and we bicycle chained the doors so the commander couldn’t leave and the reporters were inside. Anyway, the next day was February 12th. The next day, Chairman Fred Hampton read about us and he came back and he said, “I want to help you guys because you’re going to get killed.” (laughter) So we didn’t realize what we had done; we just thought it was a protest and that. But that’s how we met Chairman Fred Hampton who took us under his wings. He taught us about -- I had already learned a little bit about the 4 �Party and that so he gave us the skills that we needed to come right out of the gang. But we came right out of the gang and we started organizing. We did occupations at first and then we did demonstrations and we [00:10:00] united the community. We spread to 27 cities. A lot of people are more familiar with the New York Chapter but it started in Chicago and that. But anyway, that’s a good introduction? AD: That’s great. Thank you. (applause) STAN MCKINNEY: Good afternoon, my name is Stan McKinney. I’m a former member of the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party. I don’t know if there’s some other party members here. (applause) First of all, I’m honored to be a part of the panel here with all the other courageous comrades. I wanted to point out something to the audience and I’d like for you guys to participate in just a moment of silence. Mrs. Iberia Hampton passed away which was the mother [00:11:00] of Fred Hampton just Thursday, 94 years old. So Chairman Fred Hampton, Jr. who I work with closely asked me to do that so we want to give a moment of silence and condolences for the Hampton family. (pause) Thank you. Basically, I was the last Illinois Chapter party member that concluded the Illinois branch of the Black Panther Party. I worked with the party, I joined in 1969, I probably was about 16, 17 years old. And I think when I left from Oakland California, it was probably about ’76 so that was my tender [00:12:00] in the party. (applause) HY THURMAN: I’m Hy Thurman, I’m one of the cofounders of the Young Patriots and also the original Rainbow Coalition. (applause) How I got involved was I had 5 �migrated to Chicago from a small town in Tennessee to find a job and try to get away from some of the pverty that was in the area. It was a small town and about agriculture. But I started to work and I say this to catch-up but I started work when I was three years old in the field [00:13:00] working with my mother and my other siblings. We were raised in a single-parent home, extremely poor. And I remember my mother and my older sister only had one pair of shoes and they would split that pair of shoes. My sister would come home from school and my mother would take them and go to whatever she had to do. So we were, we would go to work in the fields working all day long and then pool our money to eat. And there were times when it was very primitive, we would actually have to hunt our food. But that’s the way it was back then. This was through the ’50s. It was very little, there are actually very few services [00:14:00] to help anybody and (clears throat) excuse me. In my hometown, if you were poor, you were victimized. And you were victimized by the police, you were victimized by the agencies, and you were considered to be pretty much white trash. We grew up through that. So when it came time for me to leave, I left when I was 17, I went to Chicago and pretty green. There are some of my old friends back there now that knew me and I’m forever grateful to their help. And when I got to Chicago, I thought it would be different but it wasn’t. It was a slum. Uptown was a slum. The police were very brutal. The slum landlords were just vicious and they would never [00:15:00] fix up their buildings. People were actually freezing to death in some of these buildings. I knew people that would have to put, warm up bricks and put them at the foot of the bed so they could stay warm at night. Uptown 6 �was just a real impoverished area. I thought I was going to go into something different but I didn’t. But anyway, about the, I’d been there about two weeks and the cops stopped me. When they found out I had a southern accent, they became very indifferent. Told me to go back home and - I won’t use the word but screw my mother and my dog and my pig and whatever we do down there. And that’s the way we were treated and it didn’t change from there. So I had, my older brother was there and he had been involved in the Peacemaker street gang [00:16:00] but then he’d gotten involved with JOIN which was a Jobs Or Income Now program out of Students for a Democratic Society. JOIN people were pretty much responsible for giving us the ideology, political ideology that we could carry on. That’s basically, there’s a lot more to the story but they ended up leading a march on the police station in the era of police brutality. Peggy Terry who was, Peggy Terry was a poor woman from Oklahoma who lived in the South. She ran as vice president with Eldridge Cleaver so we were involved politically. A lot of the programs as far as women’s programs were started, women’s liberation was started there. But anyway, I got involved because of just the brutal poverty that was [00:17:00] there and the brutality by the police. That’s how I got involved. It’s a long story but -- (applause) LENNY FOSTER: (Navajo language) [00:17:12 - 00:17:51]. I want to say thank you for your presence today and the invitation to be [00:18:00] part of this panel. I’m very pleased to be part of such a historical occasion. I grew up in a sheep camp in northern Arizona on the Navajo Reservation. English wasn’t a primary language. My grandparents, my mother and my father, they all spoke the Navajo 7 �language so we were encouraged to learn who we are. Our culture, our heritage, our language. I’m glad that I was raised in that manner. But they also emphasized school, go to school. My dad used to say that because he went out in the world from the sheep camp. In 1942, he enlisted in the United States Marine Corps and they immediately took him because he was bilingual. They made him a radio operator and he became known [00:19:00] as the Navajo Code Talkers (applause) so because of the Spanish, my father emphasized education. He wanted us to go to school, to have perfect attendance, not to miss any school so that was my upbringing with the sheep camp and then moving into the small community of Fort Defiance, Arizona. I went to a school, I became a good student, a good athlete. And that was my ticket off the Reservation, out of what it was, I learned, poverty. We didn’t have all the fine things that other people had. I didn’t realize that until I went to college. While I was in college, I tried out for the baseball team and I made the team, Arizona Western College, and I played with some of the [00:20:00] best baseball prospects in the country. Several, seven draft choices. So in my meetings and discussion with some of my teammates, I realized I didn’t have any money. That was kind of a shame, shaming, because all these other white guys, they had a lot of money. But I was just as good as them. There was one profound moment in my life, that spring of 1968. I came in from practice, came into the dormitory. There was a big TV that everybody watched in the dormitory. It was a very -- Dr. Martin Luther King and Ralph Abernathy marching. They had a big delegation and right up front [00:21:00] with him were some Indians, Native Americans, American Indian. 8 �Later, I found out that was a Fools Crow, Henry Crow Dog, Archie Fire. I always wonder, I said, “I wonder who those Indians are?” And later, I -- because it made me proud that they were marching, walking with Dr. Martin Luther King and Ralph Abernathy. Then I also read about and learned Malcolm X, Frantz Fanon. This is enlightening for me because remember, I’m just a res boy from Fort Defiance, a sheep camp. And here I was learning about all these different movements. Then I came across how the Black Panther Party marched into Sacramento, California, with some arms but that was their right. But the white men freaked out over that (laughing) [00:22:00] and they changed the law here in California. You couldn’t do that anymore. (laughter) You can’t be bringing guns right into the state capitol and I thought, “Wow, that really --” This was, I think it was 1968 and ’69. Then I came to a conference here at Laney College July 19th, 1969 that was sponsored by the Black Panther Party. I was working for the Utah Migrant Council. So we drove from Salt Lake City, came to this conference, and I seen all the Black Panthers wearing their black leather jackets with the black beret, making the fists and power to the people and down with the pigs. (laughter) Boy, that was something so that was my awareness of learning. Then I went back to the reservation later that summer and right about that time, Woodstock was happening. The man had landed [00:23:00] on the moon, too, that same weekend. (laughter) So everything, everything was coming down (laughter) and I had to decipher all of this. Where did I fit into all of this? I transferred from Arizona Western and went to Colorado State in Fort Collins. Of course, I tried out for the team and my heart wasn’t in it anymore after what I seen. Laney 9 �College and just the movements that were going on. Bobby Kennedy was assassinated, and Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated. These things were happening and so it had a profound effect on me. And when I was in Fort Collins, I noticed there were no Indians on the campus and I started going down to Denver, Colorado, to the Indian Center. That’s where they had the powwows every weekend and I met Vernon Bellecourt [00:24:00] (applause) and Clyde Bellecourt. They introduced me to Dennis Banks and Russell Means. So (inaudible) people for this movement. (applause) It was called the American Indian Movement -AUDIENCE: Yes. LF: -- and I joined the Denver AIM and I hitchhiked from Fort Collins later that year in December during Christmas break. I hitchhiked from Fort Collins, Colorado, through a snowstorm to San Francisco, Alcatraz Island. The Indians had landed. (applause) So that was my introduction, all of that. And here I am today and I’d like to ask the panel for their support regarding an issue that really irritates me and others, this mascot issue. AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause) LF: The cartoon, the cartoon characters, Cleveland Indians. They have this big buck-tooth [00:25:00] red face on their patches, on their arm and their caps. They need to change that. AUDIENCE: Yeah! (applause) LF: It’s humiliating for us. They say, “Oh, we’re doing this. We’re honoring you.” (laughter) You’re not honoring us, it’s being very derogatory, disrespectful. I 10 �know the African Americans wouldn’t put up with that if they use names in their cartoon characters. Because I remember at one time, I remember there was Uncle Ben, Aunt Jamima. That changed, that changed. AUDIENCE: Damn right. (laugher) LF: They got rid of it. (laughter) And the Chicanos, they were making fun of them with their Speedy Gonzales and those kind of cartoon characters. That changed. AUDIENCE: Right on. LF: Why is it that Indian people, we can’t change that? (applause) They continue to pollute our land, leave us here, threatening to put oil [00:26:00] into our water. Digging up sacred sites, cemetaries, and saying that they’re doing it for the economy of America. That’s not right. So at this time, these are some concerns that we have and I’m representing them and I’d like to ask the panel for their support to abolish. Abolish those cartoon characters and those names. We don’t want Red Skins and Chiefs and Warriors and stuff like that. That’s not honoring us. Think about it, think about it real deep. Would you like to be called that? Would you like your grandkids, that kind of legacy? No, that’s humiliating, humiliating and derogatory. So I’m asking your compassion and support to abolish that. You can do it and I know that the Black Panther Party has that legacy; [00:27:00] they stand up to the man. So we want your help and we stand with you. Thank you for allowing me to be part of your prestigious conference and historic event and to meet such distinguished gentlemen that have been in the movement for years and years. I always say I’m not a leader, I’m not a chief, I’m a dog soldier. (applause) I’m a dog soldier who picks his flag and his stick, 11 �who just puts it into the ground and doesn’t retrieve. He stands there and makes his fight there. That’s what a dog soldier, he fights -AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause) LF: Thank you again, man, for the education. That’s all I want to say at this time. Thank you again. (applause) AD: Thank you, Lenny. (applause) Okay, [00:28:00] I think now I want to bring up the other three panelists, Sister Abdulhadi (applause) and Pam (applause) (inaudible) and Harvey. (applause) AUDIENCE: All right! AD: Okay. I just thought since everybody was giving a little biography, we should also include the other members of the panel. (inaudible) going to start with Dr. Abdulhadi. RABAB ABDULHADI: As-salaamu alaykum. AUDIENCE: Alaykum salaam. RA: [00:29:00] Good afternoon. I first begin by honoring the people whose land I convene today. AUDIENCE: Right on. (snapping) RA: And I send greetings to people in Standing Rock, in Charlotte, in the streets of Hebron, in the streets of Gaza, in the streets of Jerusalem, in the Philippines, in Puerto Rico, in Haiti and elsewhere where people are struggling for their justice (inaudible). (applause) I also want to honor the memories of the martyrs from Michael Brown to Mohammed Abu Khdeir. For people who do not know, Mohammed Abu Khdeir was the young Palestinian killed who was kidnapped by 12 �Israeli settlers made to drink petrol and set on, burned alive. He was lynched in Jerusalem around, in the summer of 2014. And I want to say that actually, some people think that that’s the time when our people came together. But sometimes, the history and the [00:30:00] memories tend to be short because there is the intention in this country to actually have people not remember the histories of our people, the legacies, the struggles that people go back long, long time. So this is something that -- and I also honor the martyrs who are here from this movement here, from Joe Jackson to the people whose stories we were told yesterday to. I will offer condolences to the Hampton family. And I know knowing, hearing from Palestinian mothers how hard it is. Mothers always say they should never bury their children. They should never bury their children. They shouldn’t outlive their children. And this is our legacy, this is our struggle, this is what we have. So I will just say a couple of things about I grew up under Israeli occupation so I’ve experienced nothing but Israeli occupation. I’ve seen the Palestinian people, almost over a million people, displaced [00:31:00] and this was before my time in 1948 when Israel was founded. Actually, next year will be the 70th anniversary of the foundation and the Nakba. I’ve lived under occupation and I remember seeing Israeli soldiers all the time. The difference, and people talk about police brutality and the difference between the Israeli soldiers and people know that in our communities, and I was a young girl going to school in the morning. We used to have young boys harassing us, making comments and so on. But the difference between having young Palestinian boys harass us and young Israeli soldiers harass us is that with Palestinian boys, you could call on your father, you 13 �could call on your mother, you could call on your brother, and then go talk to them and they’ll stop. They’ll cut it out, they’ll cut it out. But with Israeli soldiers, you couldn’t do that. Because the only way you would do that is because you would have to call on your elders to come in and then risk their lives so you are in a dilemma of what you want to do. This has continued until, [00:32:00] it has continued until Palestinians waged their resistance. So whenever there isn’t resistance, you are supposed to stand and let them have the public space and this is exactly what’s happening here today. In terms of our, and I’ve had members of my family go to prison and imprisoned like all Palestinians. Actually, we have, one in four Palestinians have spent time in prison at one time or another. In this past March and yesterday, somebody made a shout out to the prisoner delegation. We went together to Palestine in March. Some of the people may be here, brother Andrew Douglas, brother Hank Jones. This is from the Panthers and the many others. It was 19 of us on the delegation and there were four former political prisoners from the United States. The ways in which Palestinians embraced the sisters and brothers who were coming from here, it was a recognition and identification with delegacies of the struggle. [00:33:00] When I was growing up, I do remember a couple of things about the Black Panthers. One is I remember something now about the Black Panthers but inspired by the Black Panthers and the Black Power movement, Muhammad Ali, Muhummad Ali “Cly.” My mother used to always say Muhammad Ali “Cly.” She never said Muhammad Ali “Clay.” Why? Because this is the way they pronounce it in the papers. (laughter) This was a very, this was a very big support for 14 �Muhammad Ali because he actually stood up to the United States and refused to serve in Vietnam. This was a source of pride for people in Palestine and the Arab world throughout the Muslim world. The other person was Angela Davis. AUDIENCE: Yes. (applause) RA: And I remember that (applause) -- yes. Angela Davis and I’ve actually told her this because we were on the delegation to Palestine in 2011 that I organized (inaudible). I remember my mother looking at the picture and she’s saying, “She’s framed. She’s framed.” Actually, at the time, my father would say, “Why do you think she is framed? Well, let’s hear what is [00:34:00] going on.” And yes, of course, there is racism in the US. She said, “Well, she’s Black. Of course she’s framed.” (laughter) It was the immediate recognition that there was something that was and I want to just bring it back to because I don’t want to take too much time in the introduction but I want to bring it back to the present, by mentioning two other experiences of solidarities among our people. One is that when Angela Davis came to Palestine, on the morning of the first day when we were there and we were hosted by Palestinians from different walks of life, political prisoners and activists and so on, she got up to introduce herself and she said -- and we didn’t know that. People didn’t -- she said one of the things that has sustained her the most when she was in imprisonment in the United States for 18 months was a letter she received from Palestinian prisoners. Palestinian prisoners wrote a letter, smuggled it through the waters and the seas, all the way to the United States that was smuggled to Angela Davis in prison to tell [00:35:00] her we are in solidarity with you. We were in Palestine, we were in 15 �Jerusalem, and we were visiting four Palestinian Leadership Council members were being expelled by the Israelis from Jerusalem to another parts of Palestine. One of the people who was meeting us was a man by the name of Yakoub Odeh. Yakoub Odeh was a very well-known, and he’s still a very well-known, Palestinian leader, former prisoner, spent 17 years in prison. Now, there is a film actually, about him and his village called The Ruins of Lifta. I recommend it. And Yakoub, when Angela comes down, he says to her, “So Angela, the letter was helpful to you?” He was one of the people who wrote. He was one of the leaders of the prison movement who wrote the letter that was drafted to Angela there. Yakoub Odeh was also one of the people who welcome our delegation, prisoner delegation, this past March to Palestine. One of the first things that he shared with us was he told us how he was meeting with this Jewish woman [00:36:00] who was a Holocaust survivor. When she exposed her arm, she said to him, “You see, these are the tattoos that I have.” She showed him where the Nazis had sealed her hand. He said to her, “I want to show you my tattoo.” He put his head down and his head is all broken and this was one of the results of the torture that he incurred in the Israeli prisons. This was a sign of the way he was talking about humanity and how it is that people who are experiencing indignations here, feelings, genocide. Experiencing violations of their rights need to come together and express solidarity with each other. The last thing I would, I want to mention is that during our delegation, one of the things our sisters and brothers did from here, from the delegation is they put together a pamphlet that has statements from US prisoners, political prisoners, like Herman Bell [00:37:00] 16 �and like Mumia Abu-Jamal - all solidarity to Palestinian prisoners. They put together a pamphlet and somebody drew a picture of one of the (inaudible) or the some of you know about her in Chicago that she is struggling day in and day out. And we call, we email people in Palestine telling them can you print the pamphlet because we are worried about bringing in, crossing the border, the Israelis will stop us. We don’t know what’s going to happen. They said we’re not going to print it -- and this is, mind you, and this is really important. Because when you represent, you introduced me as professor and yes, I am a professor at San Francisco State. I’m proud of being at San Francisco State, the home of 1968 strike where the Black Student Union led by the Panthers (applause) (inaudible) after united struggle. So we are not talking about just any regular school. We’re talking about the place where the academy actually comes together to engage in critical pedagogy in order to change the world. This is what the job that we (applause) -AUDIENCE: Right on! RA: -- so what happens, yes. So what happens is [00:38:00] we were doing a conference with Birzeit University Institute for Women’s Studies. If people think that women’s struggles and women’s gender studies and so on is irrelevant, you need to go and look at the Institute for Women’s Studies at Birzeit University in Palestine. We put together a conference on settler colonialism, racism, prisoner solidarity, and the sisters at Birzeit University printed, not only printed the pamphlet. They translated it to Arabic in order to make it available to the Palestinian prisoners so they can read so they know what their sisters and 17 �brothers in US jails who are incarcerated have to say in expressing their solidarity. We were at that conference the last time at the [four rings?] and one of our sisters, Johanna Fernandez, who is part of the Mumia Abu-Jamal Defense Committee, she says I have a call. Mumia Abu-Jamal called from his prison, from his prison to Palestine to wish and express solidarity with the Palestinians. [00:39:00] This is what solidarity is all about. This is why -AUDIENCE: Yeah. RA: -- the 50th anniversary of the Panthers is really important, (applause) this is why I’m very inspired to be part of this movement of (applause; inaudible) [00:39:07 00:39:25] AUDIENCE: Oh yeah, right on! (applause) RA: -- to learn from our histories and our solidarities in order for us to chart a different path towards the justice and the freedom of our people and we will prevail. Thank you. AUDIENCE: All right! (applause) AD: Okay, Harvey. (laughter) PROFESSOR HARVEY: It’s a challenge for me to follow (laughter) [00:40:00] but I can connect because the struggle still continues. I’m a lecturer at UC Berkeley (applause) and one of the big fights that we’ve had recently was that there was an experimental decal class that taught about Palestine. The settler colonialist theories, right? Outside pressures forced the university to suspend this class and there was a long period of silence. The students were intimidated, they didn’t know what to do. And myself, as a lecturer, was in touch with other 18 �lecturers about how come there’s so much silence. So we felt that maybe we should do something. So what we did was we were involved in a petition drive, we were involved [00:41:00] in contacting other people, and the class got put back on, okay? (applause) But they had to -- so it shows that if you’re silent, things will get worse. We have to learn from this legacy of the Black Panther movement. When I was active in the ’60s, we always tried to look to the past and we couldn’t really find a whole lot. We didn’t know too much about the labor movement. We looked towards revolutions going on but for this generation, we have the legacy of the Black Panther Party as part of our DNA. It’s part of us now. Because I remember before, I used to look at it in terms of struggle for my people, Asian people, and all this stuff. But the Panthers taught us hey, the people is all of us, all different nationalities. (applause) That’s what Rainbow [00:42:00] Coalition is all about and understand that that’s why Panthers who believed that lost their lives because they believed in this. So it’s a very serious thing about coalition and solidarity where people paid for it with their lives and we have to not let that go. Myself, I’m a second-generation Chinese American and we, that’s a generation that, whose families went through exclusion, all kinds of racism, discrimination. Our families would just kind of suck it in and then our generation was upset abut that. Hey, why can’t it be discussed? What happened, you know, the racism? Then you extend it further, how can we form solidarity [00:43:00] with others who suffer from racism, colonialism, imperialism, and whatever, okay? So I was actually in the military program at UC Berkeley, ROTC program. Because of my self-study, I turned against the war and I joined 19 �the Stop the Draft Week movement. And at this Stop the Draft Week movement, there was an alliance with the Black Panther Party so I began to feel a connection with the politics of the Black Panther Party. Because the Stop the Draft movement focused largely on the war itself but the Panthers dealt with the issues not just of war but also of racism. So I started going to different Panther activities. There was actually a call for students to go down the Panther office because they heard it was going to be raided. I went down there [00:44:00] with classmates with our textbooks. We’d be studying for our midterms and helping prevent a raid. (laughter) Wonderful combination. Soon, I joined the AAPA, the Asian American Political Alliance at UC Berkeley, and became friends with a Mr. Richard Aoki (applause) who was a founding member of the Black Panther Party, okay? So that was a very wonderful time. AAPA, Richard Aoti, connecting with the Panthers. Some of us even went to an anti-war conference in Montreal, okay? So if you look at the history of this period, you might come across on the internet a couple of Asian faces, AAPA members, holding [00:45:00] signs that say yellow peril supports black power. (laughter) Free Huey. (laughter) AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause) PH: Free Huey. So following that, this whole Panther movement became part of our DNA. I was also involved in the Third War Strike at UC Berkeley. Then later, I continued doing community work, Asian Community Center, especially involving the fight to save the [I-Hotel?]. Again, the Panther connection would be serve the people, heart and soul, serve the people programs. So I think you could say for every Asian American political organization that was formed during that time, if 20 �you look at their programs, you would see some type of connection with the Black Panther Ten-Point Program. I think there was organizations, I Wor Kuen, Panthers helped start Red Guard, [00:46:00] there was LLC organization. All these organizations, you could see lineage, connection, very much so with the Black Panthers, okay? So for that, I’m really glad to be on this panel. (applause) AD: You done good. (laughter) PAM TAU LEE: Hi everybody. My name is Pam Tau Lee. I’m a former member of the I Wor Kuen and I’m very honored to be here on this panel with you and I’m very honored to be a part of the legacy of the Black Panthers. What I want to talk about today, a little bit about myself is I’m a third-generation Chinese. I have a great-grandfather who I understand left because of [00:47:00] colonization in China. Left to become a laborer to help build the Panama Canal but he never returned home. We don’t know why. But these kinds of stories and experiences around colonization but I didn’t really understand about colonization until 1969 when the Black Panthers came to San Francisco Chinatown. And I’m Chinese. He’s Chinese. Chinatown is Chinese. But it took Bobby Seale and the Black Panthers to bring this book. (applause) This book was, Bobby Seale led study groups on Jackson Street in a pool hall with us and the legacy [00:48:00] of that, of those study groups that we had a lot of them. But the legacy of the study group began the journey for somebody like me back in 1969 to be here today. That journey where the transformation that a book in the words like this and the Ten-Point Program of the Black Panthers transformed people internally and externally. So for me, the whole experience of colonization and that growing up 21 �in Chinatown with the whole thing around assimilation and accepting white supremacy. When I got to college and the movement around national independence struggles around the world and the work of the Panthers, the programs that they were instituting, [00:49:00], this was an awakening. It was a moment in which people like myself found their full humanity. The impact of internalized oppression runs so deep and I feel that because of the Black Panther Party and the Ten-Point Program and the Serve the People programs and the practice in terms of serve the people, love the people, have the faith in the people. That it was real things that you could see. So in Chinatown, the Red Guard and many of you have the program of the Red Guard in front of you. They started breakfast programs and other kinds of things in terms of childcare. They stood up [00:50:00] to the Right-wing in Chinatown. One of the things that the Black Panthers helped us understand was class, the importance of class struggle. (applause) So in Chinese communities, we have class. Those people who owned the sweatshops and people like my grandmother who worked in the sweatshops. Those landlords who owned those apartments, those single-room occupancies in which I spent a lot of my life and those people who lived in those single-room occupancy sharing toilets, sharing a kitchen, having tuberculosis, having mental illness, all of these kinds of conditions. But how understanding an analysis. Being able to analyze the conditions locally, nationally, internationally. The Black Panther Party helped us do that. (applause) [00:51:00] The other thing was the concept of internationalism and solidarity. Richard Aoki, man, my brother. We’re not giving him up. (cheers) He’s ours! Richard is ours. One of 22 �the things around Richard that really instilled in us was the concept of internationalism and solidarity and working out of your communities, crosscommunities. So that is in terms of the legacy of the Panthers, the importance of that. I just want to have two things to end is there is the Ten-Point Program that we studied and the Red Guard people. I was not a Red Guard, but the Red Guard studied and adopted. But I want to draw your attention to one more thing that the Red Guard added as a principle to the Ten-Point Program is 11 [00:52:00] points. (laughter) And 11, point 11 reads, “We demand that the United States government halt the rape of the land. We believe that if greedy businessmen with the help of the US government do not stop destroying our land,” I can’t read because this is, I’m 86 years old and okay. Okay, it says, “Air does not destroy our land. The air, the water, and the streams of the earth will become a lifeless planet of rock and dust.” That is principle 11 that was added -AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause) PTL: -- to the Black Panthers. (applause) The legacy of this book and the Panthers in terms of the I Wor Kuen, I want to share [00:53:00] in terms of what guides me as a vision for the work that I did as a young person and I am 45 years later still a revolutionary. (applause) There’s two more things that we added onto the I Wor Kuen document is number, principle number four. Very important. “We want an end to male chauvinism and sexual exploitation.” AUDIENCE: Yes. (applause) PTL: (inaudible) a patriarchy in our society. The last one that we added, point number 12, is we want a socialist society. 23 �AUDIENCE: Yes. (applause) PTL: Each according to their ability, to each according to their need. AUDIENCE: Yes. (applause) AD: Thank you, thank you. PTL: (inaudible) is that [00:54:00] the legacy lives on today. I want to be able to bring you -- I’m affiliated with Asians for Black Lives. AUDIENCE: Right on. (applause) PTL: One of the things that Asians for Black Lives that Ricard taught us and we embrace today is the study of the movement platform, the platform for the movement of Black Lives. (applause) The second thing in terms of the legacy of the Black Panthers is solidarity. Myself from the streets of Chinatown to the camps of Standing Rock, we’ve just returned from Standing Rock in solidarity with them. (applause) AD: Okay, this is what all power to the people is about, okay? AUDIENCE: That’s right. AD: The Black Panther said all power to the people. AUDIENCE: All power to the people. (applause) (snapping) AD: Thank you. So now, I would like [00:55:00] to ask Hy and Cha-Cha and Stan how did the Rainbow Coalition in Chicago begin? How did it get started? Who wants to go first? Stan? SM: Well first, I think I would like to give some history in terms of the Rainbow Coalition. First of all, Chairman Fred was a very charismatic brother. He was so dynamic and charismatic, this is… his death, his blood that was spilled actually 24 �opened the doors for the Black Panther Party to sue the government. It busted loose. It opened up the doors for COINTELPRO. I mean, we had other cases but we were able to link the government when William O’Neal testified in that courtroom that he was paid [00:56:00] 125 dollars to put the Seconal in Fred’s milk. One hundred and twenty-five dollars and a promise to be an FBI agent. He supplied the floor plans, he poisoned Fred, he collaborated with the government to set this whole thing up. That was our proof. That was our proof that connected Illinois Bureau of Investigation all the way to DC, okay? So the FBI in Illinois tried to denounce their relationship with DC, DC tried to blame it on CPD which is Chicago Police Department, Chicago police -- and all of them put it onto the state’s attorney’s office. [00:57:00] States’ attorneys, basically they’re paper pushers. They go out and serve notices. Never before in the history of the state’s attorney’s office being used as a puppet to send 14, 14 of their lackeys in at 4:00 in the morning in a AT&T truck -AUDIENCE: Yes. SM: -- to murder. The target was Fred Hampton. AUDIENCE: That’s right, tell ’em. SM: Okay? The target was Fred Hampton. Even down to the point where the pig that testified, Gloves Davis, a Black, fascist pig -- AUDIENCE: That’s right. SM: -- went into that room and said, “I shot him in his head. He’s good as he’s dead.” Okay? I mean, he’s reporting to the masters. “I’ve shot him in his head, he’s good as he’s dead.” Deborah Johnson, Akua Njeri, Deborah was in the bed 25 �pregnant with Fred, Jr. at that time. [00:58:00] So these base, these reactionaries came in with no compassion. This is a pregnant woman and they machine-gunned this place, okay? This was one of them St. Valentine’s Day massacre deals. They came in and the target was to kill Fred. Mark Clark was sitting on the door, he was a defense captain from Peoria, Illinois. Mark really didn’t know a lot of folk. He was on security. So when the pigs came to the door, they gave a fictitious name so Mark said who? Automatically, they shot right through the door, striking Mark, killing Mark. Striking him right in his heart, killing him and simultaneously kicking in the back door, coming in on a brutal searchand-destroy mission in particular was Fred Hampton who they knew. They knew from their informant that they had placed in that apartment that [00:59:00] exactly where Fred would be laying his head and that he had been drugged, okay? The coroner said there was enough Seconal in his, in this man’s drink to kill a horse. So moving forward from December 4th of 1969, the dynamics and the charisma -I want to take you back a little bit. This is something that just came to me. There was an incident. There was an incident where the Chairman had went to meet Jeff Fort. Jeff Fort was the leader of the Blackstone Rangers. There was a church on the South Side that they had basically took siege over. It was like a headquarters. Chairman had took a group of us Panthers there. Clearly, when we walked into that church, we were outnumbered and outgunned. But [01:00:00] you could tell from the charisma of the Chairman that it engulfed these brothers and they had much respect. I mean, I was shaking. We walked out of there. We were outgunned, outnumbered, but the Chairman got his point across. 26 �What that had to deal with was that we had that breakfast program in the CabriniGreen Projects which was on the North side of Chicago. The Cobra Stones, we were trying to feed hungry children. The Cobra Stones were paid to get on top of the housing projects and machine gun at the children coming to the breakfast program. So this precipitated the meeting but they were paid by the daily administration to stop the breakfast program just like with the medical center. The FBI told the Vice Lords, a Chicago street gang, we’ll let you sell [01:01:00] as many drugs, as much drugs as you want to sell. Just don’t let the Black Panther Party open that medical center. Well, it opened. AUDIENCE: All right. SM: It opened. AUDIENCE: (applause) SM: We had to take matters in our own hands but it opened. So moving forward, in terms of the Rainbow, the same charisma that the Chairman walked into that church and diffused that situation with the Blackstone Rangers that Fred, Chairman Fred, was able to organize. He was able to take groups along with, as Cha-Cha said. They started out initially as a gang and came over. Hy Thurman with the Young Patriots. So the charisma. But when J. Edgar Hoover made that statement that the Panthers were the greatest threat to the internal security of this country, Fred was on the hit list. He was one of the many on the hit list. In terms of organizing and developing the coalitions, [01:02:00] of the many people that we developed, the many groups that we developed solidarity. Because you guys don’t realize this but the party was under attack. I mean, there was 38 27 �Panthers that was killed through the whole course but we were constantly being hauled off to jail. One of the main torture tactics that the pigs would use when they would bring Panthers in was tactics that were employed from Vietnam. They would take us in and handcuff us and take toothpicks and stick them under our fingernails, okay? You guys heard about [John Burrage?]. Well, John Burrage’s been doing this thing. He didn’t just start doing that before. John Burrage was a part of the Red Squad, a group of racist dog police bring you into the police station and slam your fingers into the medicine, file, I mean file cabinets. You know, hey, so they didn’t want you to sell the Panther paper. They were so [01:03:00] intimidated by the organizing and the coming together in solidarity of various groups because we believed that -- and that was the thing that differentiated us from other organizations is that we believed in the international revolution, okay? We wasn’t locked into the whole cultural nationalist scene. We believed in the people’s struggle, the people’s alliance, the people’s movement and that’s what the Black Panther Party was about. The coming together of that Rainbow Coalition was devastating. It dealt a blow in addition, in addition to the many other programs. The many other programs that the Black Panther Party initiated. The Breakfast for Children program, even sickle cell, sickle cell anemia. We exposed that to the government. The government wasn’t even dealing with that. We took a school bus [01:04:00] and turned it into a laboratory and we went around testing. Testing children for sickle cell anemia throughout this country. Same thing with the bussing program. We took a Greyhound bus and put a Panther on it and turned it into a bussing the 28 �prisoner program. (laughter) So these programs -- and it heightened the contradiction because many loved ones, many people with loved ones that were in prison, they couldn’t get to these institutions so these reactionaries were able to kind of do their treachery in the dark. We exposed that. All we asked people to do was donate. The program was free, free, free. So we had a love for the people and I think the Rainbow Coalition was just an example. But Fred being the charismatic young brother that he was, he was, a bullet was put in his head. He was only 21 years old. So -AD: Excuse me, Stan. SM: Sure. AD: I know you have a lot more to tell us. SM: [01:05:00] Right on. AD: But we want to hear from, we want to move forward but thank you very much -- SM: Right on. AD: -- for your company. (applause) Okay, I wanted to ask Cha-Cha if you want to add anything to what led to the Coalition beginning in Chicago. JJ: Thank you very much. I even forgot I want to thank you and Elaine Brown for bringing us out here. I forgot to mention this. I’m not trying to get any points. (laughter) You know, again, like I said, we met Chairman Fred. We knew about the Panthers in Oakland because we had gone to the Crusade for Justice conference in Dever with Jorge Gonzales. We met in the Brown Berets and the Black Berets from San [01:06:00] Jose and some of the gangs from Los Angeles. Then we heard about Oakland and I came, I actually came out here for about a 29 �month to learn what was going on at that time. But we met Chairman Fred Hampton after the police takeover workshop that we did, that we had. He, again, he came to work with us at that time. Then around April is when the Rainbow Coalition began and we got together. He asked us to get together with the Young Patriots, another branch of the Panthers was the department was working with the Young Patriots and that’s when we formed the original Rainbow Coalition. It was a symbolic, it was like a federation. It wasn’t an organization. We knew about the class struggle, the importance of the class struggle. The Sister was saying that. But what Chairman Fred understood was [01:07:00] that we all came from different nationalities and different communities. So we didn’t want to be cultural nationalists and definitely the Black Panther Party was never a cultural nationalist movement. But we wanted to recognize the fact that we have to start where our people are at and our people are -- the Puerto Ricans, we have two issues. We have the barrios in the United States but then we also have the fact that we’re a colony, a direct colony of the United States. As you can see when they’re talking about the fiscal control board. As you can see when they have brother Oscar López Rivera in jail for almost 35 years and we need the brother back out here. He’s been in jail longer than Nelson Mandela, brother Nelson Mandela. AUDIENCE: (inaudible) JJ: So we need to free Oscar Rivera and that. That’s part of our struggle. And in fact, he’s from Lincoln Park, too, which is where the birthplace of the [01:08:00] Young Lords originated. That’s where they came from. And in fact, when they 30 �got arrested in Evanston, I got arrested, too. I had to do another nine-month bit at some kind of crazy charges they put on me. The reason I won the case was because I had an amended trial. They said they were international revolutionaries and I had just run for alderman. I said, I’m a citizen, I’m demanding trial, and they had to let us go. The only reason I stayed the jail, we couldn’t afford the bond. It was too high. But anyway, that Chairman Fred Hampton and was targeted like Stan said. He was targeted. They wanted him. He was their leader, our leader at that time. We recognized the Black Panther Party as the vanguard organization. We knew that from the very beginning. They were our role model, that Red Book that you’re talking about, [01:09:00] unite the many to defeat the few was a concept that we used in terms of the Rainbow Coalition. So he wanted us to -- what he basically said was don’t hang on to our coattails; go out and organize our community. It’s a job that we have to do that we’re all responsible to. So that’s what the Rainbow Coalition meant to us. And that’s what we did as young boys. We went and organized 27 chapters nationwide. Then we come together in unity with all of the other movements. He taught us about internationalism, about the movement that was going on on Palestine and all over the world. We learned that, we used that little Red Book because again, we came right from the gang into a movement. We didn’t study for nine months for training. We were on the street corner and the next day we were occupying McCormick Theological Seminary. You just mentioned the Cobra Stones. SM: Yeah. 31 �JJ: The Cobra Stones, [01:10:00] when we occupied the seminary, we had about 350 people. A few of us occupied it for bicycle chains but we didn’t even have cars in Chicago. Some of our members rode bikes. So we used the bicycle chains to close the -- you know, we’re talking about a university. I forgot to tell you I’m in the middle of two professors here and I got (laughter) (inaudible). I’m a non-traditional student, I’m (inaudible). (laughter) So I got some homework, I just remembered. I can do it on the internet on Wiki -- I’m serious. (laughter) But -- AUDIENCE: Right? JJ: -- so I have respect. I have respect especially for revolutionaries. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. But the Cobra Stones, they came to McCormick Theological Seminary and they came with their guns and everything and they want [01:11:00] to come in. We tried to be non-violent but we didn’t take the seminary. We had some weapons. We disarmed them and said put the weapons in the car and you can come in because we’re not -- we want you to come in. We’re trying to work with you. We want you to come in. So I didn’t know about that connection. But they told us themselves the police paid us to come in and take it over from you. So that’s kind of strange that I learned that today. But anyway, so that was a job but the revolution is a job and somebody’s got to do the job. The Rainbow Coalition is -- that’s our contract to do the job. That’s really what, the way I see the Rainbow Coalition and Chairman Fred was able to unite all of us to relate to it as a human being from a community standpoint. I’m going after this, my plane [01:12:00] ticket, I’m going right to the 32 �funeral of, to the wake of Mrs. Iberia Hampton. I didn’t know that my youngest daughter who was trying to find out information about me because I had to go to Michigan on a underground, whatever you want to call it at that time and I kind of stayed there. I thought, “This is a good place. There’s no trouble here with the police.” (laughter) So they said they kind of stayed there. But while I’m there away from my family, my youngest daughter is, lives right down the street from the Hamptons in Maplewood. She got to know Ms. Iberia Hampton pretty good; I never knew her that well. Through her, I got to know Mrs. Iberia Hampton. I knew Bill Hampton and through them, I got to know -- so it’s a family thing. In fact, on one of her birthdays, I gave her a cake with the Puerto Rican flag on it. (laughter) (inaudible) But anyway, so we had that family thing and we were there. [01:13:00] I believe that Jeff has said that I was one of the pallbearers for Fred Hampton when he died because he was trying to reach out to me. I’m a, it’s a thing, it’s an honor. But I don’t want to take away from Chairman Fred Hampton but we took, we occupied the People’s Church in Chicago and we held the church for two years. Right away, the next day after we occupied the church, we said you know what? The pastor was working with them, Reverend Bruce Johnson, and he prevented a bloodbath. He told the police I, the congregation wanted to put us in jail and the pastor said no, I gave them permission to be there. They asked me at the press conference are you going to allow them to have church service? You know, my family’s very religious. I’m going what are you talking about? We’re, I’m going to be at church, too. We’re all going to be at church. This is the People’s Church. [01:14:00] We worked with the 33 �congregation and I guess the system didn’t like that because two months before Chairman Fred Hampton was killed, September 29th, Fred Hampton was killed December 4th, they stabbed Reverend Johnson 19 times and his wife 9 times in front of their children. That’s a cold case that hasn’t been solved that we are, we’ve had several tours during that time to bring that out in terms of the Latino struggle. They were, they were not Latinos. But they were from the United Methodist Church, a regular church. They’re modern-day martyrs. We need to bring it out and connect the dots because around that time, there were other Panthers that were killed and arrested during that time. So it was a national effort by the FBI COINTELPRO to destroy our movement, our Rainbow Coalition, our united movement. [01:15:00] I’m honored to be bunking with Mr. Foster. I appreciate that. AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause) AD: Right on, hi. (applause) Cha-Cha, Cha-Cha. (applause) Unfortunately, we don’t have a lot of time left and we want to try to get to some really important questions. I’m going to ask Hy how the Patriot Party began and then I want to ask Stan, as well, what was it about the Patriot Party that you guys decided to make them part of the Coalition? We’ll start with Hy first. HT: Okay. Well, there’s really two separate organizations. The Young Patriots started as an organization in Chicago. We were, we came all the way down from a street gang being involved in JOIN and as I had mentioned before, being involved in [01:16:00] the [Cleaver Terry Collections?] march on the police station. But then there were some -- just to make a point. There was a Patriot 34 �Party and a Patriot organization. Bill Fesperman, Preacher man, left the Patriots and started the Patriot Party. He wanted it to go national which was fine but that’s something that we didn’t want to do in Chicago because we were entrenched in the community and we wanted the revolution to work there first. Somebody, Chuck Armsbury over here, he was a, he was a captain of the Eugene, Oregon Chapter of the Patriot Party. One of the few that’s left. I’m one of the few that’s left in the original Young Patriots so there’s not a lot of us around. But we were kind of destroyed before [01:17:00] we even started hardly and we were approached, we were approached by Fred or Bobby Lee. Anybody that knows Bobby Lee -AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah. (applause) HT: -- I talked to him on a daily basis just about because he, Brother Bobby, he’s still a revolutionary. SM: Oh, yeah. HT: He said he’s never a former anything; he is a Panther (applause) and he’ll always be a Panther. AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause) HT: What happened was we were at a community meeting. I believe it was in the Lake View area of Chicago which is just south of Uptown. This particular committee of people liked to invite people in to talk about who they are and we were given a presentation. This was an all-white group and they came down on us really hard. Now, we didn’t know [01:18:00] that Bobby Lee and some of the other boys and some of the other Panthers would be there at that time so they 35 �came down on us pretty hard. We were trying, actually, what we were trying to do was we were trying to get some funding to set up some survival programs because we had been watching the Panthers and what they were doing. We as an organization, had, we’d gotten a little bit more political. Now, we were nowhere near as political as let’s say as the Panthers or the Lords because we were the oppressor, basically. We were the white people from the South that oppressed many. Everybody else, basically. But and I remember asking Fred Hampton one time, “Why would you accept us into an organization, into the Black Panthers in unity and equality?” He said, “I can, I can,” since we’re the oppressor. I said, “We oppressed you all.” [01:19:00] He says, “Well, I can look past that because I’m looking toward a revolution.” He said that it’s all a class issue. It’s not a racist issue. We were running around with, some of them were running around with a Confederate flag which was really a big point of contention. (laughter) That was okay with the Panthers and that was okay with the Lords. But it did cause us losing, everybody losing some membership (laughter) because not everybody would agree with that. But we used that flag and we explained why we used it was to go into the bars and to the places in Chicago where there was a bunch of Southern people. Because at that time, if you were [01:20:00] in Uptown, you knew that that flag was there but it was invisible. It was there everywhere. And most of the people didn’t understand what the hell the flag was, meant anyway. That it was a, it was a symbol of slavocracy. Of a time where people were owner, owned. They were bought and sold and treated and slaves. We started going in with a flag and also, we would, 36 �started attaching a Free Huey button (laughter) and it would cause a lot of talk. (laughter) AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah. HT: Wha we would do is we would get in the conversation about how, what is this, what is this flag mean? Well, I mean if it worked for a while but (laughter) and we [01:21:00] decided we’d give up on it after a while. (laughter) But it did have -and if you see some of the, some of the old pictures of the Panthers, we also provided security for the Panthers. We would stand shoulder to shoulder with the Panthers at any given rally. The one on fascism that was here, we did. We would stand there and we would have the rebel flag on it. But then that would really, really cause some conversations around the country. (laughter) But we decided to abandon that after a while. (laughter) But we always studied the Panthers, we respected them. We looked at their [01:22:00] Ten-Point Program and we looked at their survival programs. That meeting that Bobby Lee was in -- AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah. HT: -- he stood up for us. AUDIENCE: Yes. HT: As a matter of fact, I’ll put in a plug. We have a panel coming up right after this over in lecture hall about how poor whites worked with the Black Panthers and others. We’ll be showing a film strip of Bobby Lee in it, too. PTL: Yes. HT: But what came out of that was the invitation to become part of the original Rainbow Coalition and we learned a lot, man. We learned a lot from Fred and 37 �from Bobby Lee and others that were around. We learned a lot from the Young Lords and I tell you, it was a life-changer for a lot of us. We at this point are rebooting the Young Patriots. We have a couple of chapters now, one in Chicago, [01:23:00] one in Huntsville, Alabama. We’re doing a lot of work around racial issues in the South, the deep South, environmental issues and Chuck is working out in the Pacific Northwest and trying to get some chapters started and doing some work out there around the police brutality in some places. So we’re back but to make a long story short, it’s life-changing for me. It’s probably one of the best things that ever happened to me in my life was something like that, even though the COINTELPRO destroyed us. The leadership. Urban renewal kicked us out of the community but we’re still here. We’re back and we’re going to be, we’re going to be here. I’m always a patriot. AUDIENCE: Ha ha! (applause) HT: And I’ll always be a revolutionary. [01:24:00] (applause) We just, I just ask that you join in with us and we’ll win the fight eventually. AUDIENCE: All right. SM: Right on. AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause) HT: Okay, thank you. Thank you, thank you. AD: We only have about 25, 20 minutes to go but we want to ask some questions from the audience but I just wanted to ask a few more questions. (laughter) How does this Coalition -- I’m going to just ask two questions and you guys can chime in. But how did the Coalition actually work? I mean, you already told us how 38 �there were two separate organizations and we always told white people that they had to go organize in their community. But I’m just kind of interested to know like how did this actually [01:25:00] work, this Coalition? And what are some of the brightest moments that you could remember about this Coalition? JJ: The Coalition worked because every event that we had, we supported each other. There was no competition like there is today and that competition really comes from COINTELPRO. So that was a way of -- if there was a demonstration, every day was like going to a party, like hanging out. Like being part of a family, okay? The Panthers were having events, were there’s going to be some Young Lords and Young Patriots there and vice versa. So that’s the way it works. And again, that was a respect. We all knew about the class struggle. We would advance, vanguard, whatever you want to call us, but we had to, we had, [01:26:00] it was the people’s revolution. We can’t make a revolution without the people. AUDIENCE: Right on. JJ: So like Hy, brother Hy was saying they had the rebel flag. But you know, these were courageous people. They went into those bars where nobody else is going to them bars today to work with those people. And to work with their people. We had prejudice. We had prejudice in our community. My mother thought I was going to be a lawyer because I was a little light-skinned (laughter) so we, so you know, we know about prejudice. So we had to -- instead of a lawyer, I was on the other side. I was in jail. In jail university. (laughter) AD: Yes, sir. (laughter) 39 �JJ: But anyway, so that, we were -- HT: Well I just want to interject something about Cha-Cha is any time we wanted to find him, we just called the county jail and there he was. [01:27:00] (laughter) SM: Stan, yeah. One of Chairman Fred’s saying was that you don’t fight racism with racism; You fight it with revolutionary solidarity. I think, I think (applause) the examples, I think the example of all the testimonial up here. So when you hear this myth about the Panthers was this racist group, no. That’s not true. That’s not true and the proof is in the pudding right here. AUDIENCE: That’s right! Understand. SM: The proof is in the pudding. Often imitated, never duplicated. (applause) AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause) AD: Okay, Sister Abdulhadi wanted to say something and then we’ll go to you, Harvey. RA: Yeah. I actually when you were speaking, I was thinking about, and [01:28:00] I was thinking before what were the things that were happening at that particular moment that different groups were dealing with? So this is something that I would like to bring in from the Palestinian context. One of the things that Palestinians, especially the most revolutionary elements in Palestine, the New Left, what they call themselves -- the New Left. They were grappling with similar questions that people were grappling with here in the United States. Questions of how do you deal with the Old Left? In the Palestinian context, for instance, there used to be historically from the turn of the 20th century, there was a Palestinian communist party, for instance. It’s one of the earliest ones that was 40 �formed in collaboration with the Soviet Union and October Revolution and so on. However, and they actually led a very strong workers’ struggle in the 1936 revolt which was one of the biggest worker strike in Palestine. But then the Zionist movement intervened and tried to, they had the slogan of Judah is in land and labor. And when that was going on, [01:29:00] that split the Pales-- the workers’ movement in Palestine because you couldn’t be working around questions of racism and questions that talk about class solidarity if you actually do not address the questions of racism, exploitation, indigeneity, loss of land, genocide, and so on. So in 1948 when Israel was founded, the Palestinian Community Party ceased to exist. It became the Jordanian Communist Party and the Israeli Communist Party. So that was, there was a need for new formations to come out which is very similar which is very similar to what’s happening in the case of Puerto Rico which we will talk about all the formations that were there. But also in the United States and so on. So this was one of the things that people were dealing with and Maoism at that time was the ideological framework for them because also, the Soviet Union had recognized Israel in 1948 so Palestinian Leftists were not going to go with it. Also, there was a very interesting, eclectic mix because people say well, are you pure Marxist/Leninist? Are you pure this and that? And people say no. You don’t really have to [01:30:00] adopt everything. You actually bring in what works with your people and you do have, you do have, you have a Muslim tradition within the Palestinian community. That is actually very long part of the struggle against colonialism and so on. So you need, the way you’re talking about the church and so on, we have churches in 41 �Palestine that have been historically involved in liberation theory and against Zionism that tries to have an exclusivist Jewish state. So we have all of these things that you really need to be aware of and bring it together as you’re struggling together against colonialism, as you’re struggling against imperialism, as you’re building. So that was one of the thing. The other thing that I think is very interesting which is different from the Palestinians because I think with the Black Panthers and the Young Lords in particular, there was this whole question of what Fanon talks about, the lumpen. AD: Yes. RA: Right? AD: Right on. RA: Now, with the Palestinian, and the Algerians, it was very prevalent in the Algerian movement. I think it’s very interesting why Algeria, the same way that Cuba gives refuge to Assata Shakur, the Algerians gave refuge to the Black Panther Party [01:31:00] and they say come on, and we will take care of you and we -there was this whole discussion about what, and people were reading Fanon at the same time. They were trying to figure out how do we deal with the whole question of lumping the various sections within the movement? The question of hegemony that Gramsci brought up that wasn’t exactly what Marx and Lenin and other people were talking about. And the whole relationship with China and the ways in which China was very revolutionary and then of course, it went sour. The Chinese -- I mean, there was a problem, especially for Pales-- Arabs and Palestinians. But also the whole question of violence and how do you think 42 �about violence in terms of, not in terms of anybody carrying guns and going on and shooting and so on but actually thinking about. What does this mean? Is this something that Malcolm X said? It is by all means and people think only by all means without thinking about the context in which he spoke about that. Or before the mentor, Robert Williams, who talked Negroes with guns and he actually mentored the Panthers, mentored SNCC, mentored a whole bunch of people. [01:32:00] So I think it’s really important these kind of things. The last thing I would say is also the question in which COINTELPRO was a program that was plucked our leadership. When people come and say, “Oh, what happened to you? You are docile. You are not doing anything. What’s happening to the Palestinians?” Look how many leaders have been assassinated every single day. Then why is it that the COINTELPRO was formed and why is it that we have also programs by the Israeli Mossad assassinating a whole bunch of Palestinian leaders? I mean, we don’t have enough time to even talk about every single one of them but when, until it continues until today. It takes a very long time to grow leadership. It takes a very long time to grow leadership. It’s easy to kind of have a protest but you have a long time to grow leaders to, for people to be published, for people to be organized, for people to be organized for the people, for people to learn about all sorts of things that are required. They pluck our leaders and they do it whenever they think the movement is a danger. When they think the movement is a danger to the system, they go and pluck the leaders. AUDIENCE: [01:33:00] That’s right. 43 �RA: This is one of the things. As we talk about nostalgia, as we talk about what happened, this, it’s also really very important to think about that. How is it, what’s necessary today? How do we come together and how do we think about encouraging people to build movements? What are the things we need to be worrying about? One of the things I’m very concerned about is “anything goes.” Anything was very big problem for me. I think we really need to be, people really need to be disciplined, people need to be accountable to each other -- AUDIENCE: Right, yes. (applause) RA: -- (inaudible) [01:33:26 - 01:33:32] and we were critical of each other. People were critical. So I think these are the, some of the issues of the, some of the lessons of what you all have been going through because we are also, we are living here in the United States so we become much more knowledgeable about the movements that exist in this country. And there are a lot of similarities. I think this whole question of comparison, coming together, talking with each other, arguing, helping each other, building on each other, that’s what’s going to push our movements forward. AD: Thank you. Thank you. [01:34:00] (applause) SM: This panel and the things that we’ve talked about in terms of the Rainbow Coalition has shed light because we had one side-show phony by the name of Jesse Jackson (applause) that tried to, that tried to co-op, okay? That tried to coop the Rainbow Coalition but let me tell you something. Chairman Fred, Chairman Fred took a Black Panther newspaper and beat Jesse on his head and kicked him down the stairs at 2350 W. Madison. (applause) So this is the real 44 �deal like Roller Bill. AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause) AD: Okay, Harvey. Grab that mic, Harvey. Go ahead. Did you have something to say? PH: Well, it was just a minor [01:35:00] point but it just flashed in my eyes. (laughter) In fact, it’s so minor but I’ll say it anyway (laughter) but okay, so a typical week for those of us that were doing day-to-day political work was that we had to get out flyers, get out leaflets, and all this stuff costs money. Graphics was really expensive back then. Today it’s kind of expensive but you have internet. But the Black Panther Party national headquarters had an office there that was an open office for organizations in the Bay Are to utilize so whenever we needed graphictype services, Gestetner stuff ready to go for the work in Chinatown or Manila town or whatever, we could always rely on the Black Panther Party office. So I would say [01:36:00] that was a very significant part in terms of enabling organizations beyond just the Panther organization to get the word out, yeah. AD: That was, (applause) that was beautiful. I’m glad you put that in there. (applause) Okay. We got about 10 minutes to go. We’re supposed to be out of here in five minutes but since we didn’t get in here late, we’re going to be a little late, okay? AUDIENCE: Right on! AD: So I think we can take about two questions. Try to be short with your questions and I’m going to try to ask the panelists to be a little short with your responses so brother from the Chicago Chapter here. 45 �AUDIENCE: Right on. MALE SPEAKER 1: All power to the people. AUDIENCE: All power to the people. M1: We’ve got several people on that panel who I’ve known since my childhood. I was a Blackstone Ranger and I was shot [01:37:00] by the Black, by two, by some Black Panthers. To show how the Coalition, how Rainbow Coalition worked in Fred’s life was that he took me into his home to provide a political education. I sit with a gangster disciple who also was a Black disciple who also is a PhD student. And so we talked about the Rainbow Coalition; this wasn’t just some theory. Cha-Cha and I go back to the neighborhood, 57th Street, the Blackstones, the Cobra Stones, and the [Emerald Knights?]. So this was an active part of the philosophy of the Black Panthers so that was -- it wasn’t so much a question but just to build that what we did was we went, was that the Black Panthers, Fred went to the Black community, he went to the white community, he went to the Latino [01:38:00] community, and he built a coalition and he made sure that we honored it. Literally, he would kick our ass if we disrespected (laughter) so literally. So when a sister said discipline, we talking about in this movement, there needs to be discipline. But there needs to be vision for a people movement. (applause) AD: Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. We needed that, thank you. (applause) Okay. One more -- okay, my son wants to ask a question. He’s always got to ask a question. I’m sorry, did you have a question? So you go first. (laughter) Sorry, [Jan?]. 46 �KIANA MARY: Hi, my name is [Kiana Mary?]. I’m currently an MSW student pursuing my master’s degree in social work. I’m really excited about getting involved in the people’s fight but [01:39:00] just talking to other people, I realize they’re not as open to racial solidarity and working with others and really passionate about their own group. How do you market racial solidarity to different people and other perspectives to gain unity? AD: Beautiful question. (applause) Who wants to take that? (pause) Who? Who wants to try to answer that question? SM: Sister, the only solution is revolution, okay? You have to educate. The same, I mean the [temper plate?] is there. The Black Panther Party basically had set the [temper plate?]. You just heard all of the different Panthers speak in terms of the interconnection. That was one of the things Huey always said. The struggle is, all things are interrelated and interconnected. [01:40:00] So it’s just a matter of organizing, organizing, and organizing. Work. That’s it. PTL: I want to add one more thing. JJ: I took a marketing class. Face-to-face organizing. (applause) AD: Ma’am? PTL: I just want to acknowledge that if it has to be really intentional. That this, the work that you want to do needs to be intentional. So within your organization, being intentional that that’s part of the work that you do. So in San Francisco Chinatown organization in terms of racial solidarity, we just in the middle of Chinatown just did a day of remembrance and we read every single name in terms of young Black, young Black men and women who have been murdered by 47 �the police. And we did this in Chinese, right? Our young people are right up there in the second-to-the-last row [01:41:00] (applause) that did this in Chinese. It has to be intentional and it has to have (applause; inaudible). AD: Thank you. I’m going to ask some of the -- okay, yes. Go ahead, I’m sorry, yes. Go ahead. MALE SPEAKER 2: I just have one question for the panel and that is today, we live in the age of repression and also the age of suspicion, in a police state. So what lessons can we learn from the Rainbow Coalition and bring it into our present day when you have the US government criminalizing all kinds of organizing and making different people in different communities suspicious of one another saying if you work with such and such a community, that community may be linked to external organizations [01:42:00] and so on and so forth especially within the age of global war and global empire. There’s a war in Yemen now, there’s a war in Syria, there’s a war in Palestine and the genocide that’s going on in Palestine. Pretty soon, Latin America’s about to be destabilized. There’s a war against Native Americans, there’s a war against African Americans here in the US. So to think globally, where do we start as a Rainbow Coalition today? Just something to contemplate. And I would really appreciate an answer. (laughter) AD: You want to take a shot at that? Go ahead. RA: Just say very, very linked two actually questions together. The whole question of racial solidarity and this question is that I think we need to be very principled, number one, about our politics. 48 �AD: Yes. RA: I don’t, [01:43:00] it does not, it is not, at least, well, no. From our communities, it does, we need to think about justice as indivisible. We cannot be arguing for justice for one kind of communities without arguing for justice for another type of community. (applause) So I’m saying for instance today, while we are talking against racism, and this is one of the things where, and I know there is some critique for movement for Black Lives. But one of the things that we really appreciate in the Palestinian Arab Muslim community, the ways in which movement for Black Lives came out being very forceful around the questions of genocide in Palestine, anti-Zionism, anti-Islamophobia, and so on. This is, it’s really, really important and this is not new. I know you’re looking at me, it is not new. It doesn’t just happen yesterday. This is decades, decades, decades of struggle, by elders, by people who actually laid out this when it was very difficult to say something like this. So [01:44:00] I think it’s really important to connect everything together. I think it’s very, very, damaging, too, and I’m not saying that because I’m Arab or Muslim or Palestinian. But I think that we really need to confront Islamophobia. We need to confront anti-Arab racism with the same regard that we are talking about racism, with colonialism, everything else. I think it’s very unhelpful to speak about Muslim communities as being specifically and excessively oppressive of women because they were, our communities are not more oppressive than any other communities (applause) and we do not have oppression in our DNA and our men, and our men are not specifically misogynist while other men are actually very liberal and wonderful and so on. (laughter) It’s 49 �not about men and women. It’s not about men and women. It’s about structural issues. Structural inequalities, the system of oppression, the global war on terror, the US greed towards invading and intervening and killing more people. What’s happening in Yemen you mentioned the bombing, Saudi Arabia happening in Yemen [01:45:00] and United States standing by supporting Saudi Arabia in order to which gather revolutions in the Arab world. Against each, every single place where there are revolutions in the Arab world. Bombing every single day in Yemen. Nobody is saying anything about that. And continuing putting people in prison, 2.3 million people are in prison in the United States today. There is more privatized companies that own prisons like G4S and elsewhere. (applause) This is really a problem. If we don’t connect the dots and if we only think about our own little community and we don’t think about the question of justice in general, we will not be able to win and I don’t want to end on the negative. I want to end on the positive. That we are here because we are building with each other. (applause) We have connected the dots. So nobody tells us what can we do. There are things you can do. Instead of asking a geological question, a theoretical question, how do we think about it? We are here, we just need to come together more and we need to take the risk and we need to call people [01:46:00] on their complicity to be accountable (applause) because they are complicit if they are being neutral with questions of justice and injustice. AD: Thank you, thank you. (applause) Okay. Go ahead, get your question. That’s the last one. F: So it’s actually a statement. Having worked with Chairman Fred and Huey and 50 �Cha-Cha and Hy for the last 40 years, we’re missing the student movement. The SGS as Stan remembers was a critical part of that Rainbow Coalition. We stood together, we marched together, and that march on the police station was ChaCha and the Panthers and STS marching on that station and saying Jeff Fort, hands off [01:46:40]. But there’s also a legacy. That coalition didn’t die. When I moved back to Chicago in ’83, we elected Harold Washington. (background noise; inaudible) AD: Okay, I’m sorry. We’re going to have to cut it. F: I was just going to say the legacy did not die, [01:47:00] we elected Gerald Washington, and in 2002, we came together and we elected Barack Obama. AD: Okay, all right. Okay. I’m biased. My son wants to ask one last question. Make it quick, [Jan?]. JAN DIXON: Cha-Cha, I just want to ask a question. Did the Young Lords at any time ever go farther than just in America? Were the Young Lords ever around? JJ: Other than, other than what? JD: Other than places in South America? JJ: Farther than the US? JD: Yeah. JJ: They went to Puerto Rico and the people in Puerto Rico, some of them didn’t like the fact that we were there because each neighborhood is different, each community is different. But so we made some mistakes but we corrected them and we’re working together. But that’s a very good question. I appreciate it. AD: All right. Thank you. Okay, give everybody a hand. (applause; inaudible) 51 �[01:48:00] END OF VIDEO FILE 52 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d75b9f19827615e5173494de372c960.mp4 4fa83770f47dc018678c302bb4d254e6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Rainbow Coalition Panel, 23 de octubre de 2016 (Oakland California Museum) Descripción Spanish language Description entry Panel de discusión sobre la Coalición de Arco iris original iniciada por el presidente del Capítulo de Illinois, Fred Hampton. El moderador fue Aaron Dixon y los panelistas incluidos el fundador del Movimiento de los Jóvenes, José (Cha - Cha) Jiménez Stan McKinney del BPP de Illinois Co - fundador de la Organización de Jóvenes Patriotas, Hy Thurman Un líder de la Campaña Hamas Bos Palestina, el Dr. Rabab Abdulhadi Pam de la Alianza Asiática Americana y la Guardia Roja Profesor Harvey del I Wor Kuen Y Lenny Foster de la Nación Navajo y el Movimiento Indígena Americano (A.I.M.). Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rainbow_Coalition_20161023 Title A name given to the resource Rainbow Coalition Panel, October 23rd, 2016 (Oakland California Museum) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rainbow Coalition Description An account of the resource Panel discussion about the original Rainbow Coalition begun by Illinois Chapter Chairman Fred Hampton. The moderator was Aaron Dixon and panelists included founder of the Young Lords Movement, Jose (Cha-­Cha) Jimenez; Stan McKinney of the Illinois BPP; Co-­founder of the Young Patriots Organization, Hy Thurman; a leader of the Palestinian Hamas Bos Campaign, Dr. Rabab Abdulhadi; Pam of the Asian American Alliance and the Red Guard; Professor Harvey of the I Wor Kuen; and Lenny Foster of the Navajo Nation and the American Indian Movement (A.I.M.). Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b06136ab699d2b0005085c60576706fd.pdf 41c065e2b2ea21ce5489037663aff765 PDF Text Text Young   L ords   In  Lincoln  Park   Interviewee:  Roger  Sheppard   Interviewers:  Jose  Jimenez   Location:  Grand  Valley  State  University  Special  Collections   Date:  10/4/2016   Runtime:  01:39:03         Biography  and  Description   Oral  history  of  Roger  Sheppard,  interviewed  by  Jose  “Cha-­‐Cha”  Jimenez  on  October  04,  2016  about  the   Young  Lords  in  Lincoln  Park.   Roger  is  a  twin  brother  and  they  were  born  August  8,  1941.  His  mother  came  from  Holland  and  his   father  from  Ireland.  He  was  raised  Baptist  but  baptized  in  the  Christian  Reform  Church.  In  1960,  he   joined  the  Young  Socialist  Alliance  working  to  fight  against  segregation,  by  teaching  and  organizing   White  college  students.  While  young  he  and  his  brother  created  their  own  business  by  buying   newspapers  for  a  nickel  and  then  selling  them  for  six  cents.  They  lived  in  what  was  then  suburban,   Sun  Down  Towns  which  he  said  meant  that  if  you  were  Black  or  Latino,  you  could  not  be  seen  in  the   town  after  dark.   �Roger  has  worked  for  the  IBEW  or  International  Brotherhood  of  Electrical  Engineers  for  over  50   years.  In  1963  he  recalls  marching  with  Martin  Luther  King  in  Chicago  where  he  says  they  chanted,   “to  end  Jim  Crow  Daley  has  got  to  go.”  He  also  met  and  spoke  with  Malcolm  X  and  remembers   Stokeley  Carmichael  on  the  same  stage  with  Bernadette  Devlin  of  Ireland.  He  worked  alongside   SNCC  or  Student  Non–Violent  Coordinating  Committee.  In  1969  he  was  introduced  to  Cha-­‐Cha   Jimenez  by  Puerto  Rico  MPI  leader,  Richard  Levins  just  before  the  police  arrested  Jimenez  and   recalls  how  the  Young  Lords  raised  $2500  on  the  spot  to  get  him  bonded  out.  He  said  that  the  Young   Lords  were  about  love  and  caring  and  deadly  serious  about  “consciousness  raising.”  They  had  the   people  with  them.  Roger  himself  was  harassed  and  arrested  many  times  for  protests.  He  is  well   read  and  proactive  in  international  struggle.             �Transcript JOSÉ JIMÉNEZ: Roger, if you can give me your name, what you did, your date of birth, and where you were born. ROGER SHEPPARD: My twin brother and I were born in August 8, 1941. I was born first. JJ: Alright. That’s good. Let me -- okay, so, if you can give me your name, your date of birth, how many people in your family or siblings, and then -- RS: Right. JJ: Okay. RS: My father was born in February 15th along with his twin brother in -- February 15, 1907. My mother -- JJ: And if you can mention her first name. RS: Her name is Elizabeth Hoedemaker. JJ: And your father? RS: My father is Ford Sheppard. [00:01:00] My mother came from Holland. My father’s people came from Ireland in 1683 because they fought the king, which is known as the Cavaliers. And they were part of the Levellers and the Roundheads. And they were rewarded with a grant. The irony is the Ford brother’s came over on William Penn’s grant the same year that Roger Williams died when he said the king should have no power to grant any land because it was occupied by the Native Americans. My mother was born March 27, 1911. And my older brother was born October 16, 1937. Four years later, my twin 1 �brother Roland and I, Roger Sheppard, was born August 8, 1941. [00:02:00] And we share a common birthday, three Leos, with Cha Cha Jiménez, Roland Sheppard, and Roger Sheppard. That’s a trinity of Leos, all good people and all dedicated to the struggle. JJ: And what do you remember during that time in the -- RS: -- I remember me and my -- JJ: -- in Lincoln Park -- RS: -- twin brother were sparring partners for 18 years. He was always a little heavier than me, so I had to be a little quicker to get into his mind and just self-defense. And I learned to be a fighter, not just as a fight fighter, but as a fighter for justice and truth early on [00:03:00] from the example of my father and mother because they wanted to be good Christians, period. And they were Franklin Roosevelt Democrats. We all later, in 1960, all attended the founding convention of the Young Socialists Alliance, my older brother, Barry, my twin brother, who was not let into the convention because he was dressed well, because there were some beatniks at that time. That’s what they were called, not hippies. It is 1960, April 16th, and we had just finished supporting the Woolworth sit-ins. So, our legacy goes back before the sit-ins, in my case, my activity from February 1, 1960 in the support of the historically white colleges [00:04:00] like Brandeis, Harvard, MIT, Boston College, Boston University, supporting hundreds of students to close down Woolworths. Now, you wouldn’t think it was the radicals, the socialists -the Democratic socialists said it was not a moral question to close them down. They thought we shouldn’t punish the northern Woolworths because they were 2 �not segregationists. We said we had to hit it where it hurts and join all the Black students who were getting beat in the South for just sitting down and asking to be served, that we had to close Woolworths down. And we closed Woolworths down in Roxbury, Massachusetts two weeks after [00:05:00] the sit-ins in Greensboro, North Carolina. When I said “we,” I mean my older brother, me, Peter Camejo, and many others. Peter Camejo later ran with Nader in 2004 for vice president of this country. JJ: Ralph Nader? RS: Yes, Ralph Nader. Peter came from Venezuela, and he used to call himself Peter Camejo. And he was on the yacht racing team for Venezuela in 1960. Comes from a bourgeois background and grew up in a petty bourgeois background in Great Neck, Long Island. As the consonance of the Latino movement developed, he started calling himself Pedro Miguel Camejo. JJ: And what year was this? RS: I would say in the late ’60s. But he was Peter [00:06:00] to us, and he was a magnificent speaker. Later I went to school at Brown. I flunked out of Brown with a 0.25 average. That’s hard to do because it means I got on D and three Es. I was the only engineering student at Brown -- I wanted to be an architect -- who had physiology instead of physics. But I had caught the whiff of the movement. Luckily for me, I moved out to Boston with Peter and my older brother, Barry, right when the movement struck. And I was fortunate to have, as a teacher, Larry Patrick Trainor, who was a printmaker and a socialist from the ’30s. His father organized the police strike in 1919. [00:07:00] He was later asked to be one of 3 �Leon Trotsky’s guards in Mexico, and his wife, Gusty was on the way to being a cook when Trotsky was killed by Stalin’s agent in 1940. Anyway, he was my teacher as well as Farrell Dobbs who told me, when I met him, he was the organizer of the Teamsters in Minneapolis general strike in 1934. He asked me to just call him “Farrell.” I said, “Yes, Mr. Dobbs,” because I was always taught to respect my elders. But Farrell Dobbs was an inspiration as well as Ray Sparrow. Ray Sparrow and James P. Cannon went back to the IWW and the Socialist Party and the founding of the Communist Party after the Russian Revolution. They were the old-timers in my group. I realize I’m an old-timer now because I’m talking about what [00:08:00] would be, to me, 1906 from 1969. I learned a lot from everybody in the mass movement, and the early ’60s were popping because people had enough. Now, I might remind you that Emmett Till was my age when he was lynched in 1955. He was 14 years old. He would be my age now, 72, had he survived. But Emmett Till’s death set off a new consciousness in the Negro -- at that time called the Negro -- movement. And the Montgomery bus boycott soon followed. And they organized so well with E.D. Nixon organizing, Rosa Parks, [00:09:00] and a young preacher named Martin Luther King, Jr. for a year. And they were successful because the Korean War vets kept the transportation moving from 1955, December, to 1956. JJ: And you were doing what at that time? RS: At that time, I was in high school but feeling very inspired about the movement. I didn’t realize you had to go something beside be inspired at that time. I thought you declare yourself to be socialist like you would declare yourself to be a 4 �Unitarian or a Christian. I was raised as a Baptist, but I was baptized in the Dutch Reform Church, to my chagrin, which was the church of apartheid [00:10:00] later. But both of my grandparents took their kids out of -- my father and mother -- out of church when the KKK visited both churches in north Jersey and south Jersey. JJ: Okay, but are your parents and your neighbors and your friends -- are they talking socialism? RS: No. MY father felt like he was a chicken that hatched ducks. But he was very sympathetic to what we were doing in the civil rights movement and in the struggle to defend the Cuban Revolution, which I supported in 1959 as a newsboy because Batista was supported by the United States. And I knew then the difference between the colonization of Puerto Rico [00:11:00] and the socalled independence of Cuba. JJ: So, you were a newsboy, you said? RS: Yeah, so was my twin brother, so was my older brother. JJ: What does that mean? RS: That means we were delivering papers. We built our own business. We sold the nickel paper for six cents, and that’s how we made money in high school. JJ: This was where, in Boston? RS: Livingston, New Jersey, an all-white town. I didn’t know what I later understood, that these white suburbs had unwritten laws and they’re called sundown towns where Latinos or Blacks were often questioned if it was night time and they were walking in the town or driving through the town of what was their business in the 5 �town. There’s a good book called Sundown Towns. It was [00:12:00] written by a man who wrote Lies My Teacher Taught Me. And you should go and look at that book. Malcolm X taught me that the best way to keep a secret is put it in a book. JJ: Okay. Now, you said Malcolm X taught you from reading. But I mean, did you also have experiences -- RS: -- Yes -- JJ: -- or did someone that you know have experiences directly with Malcolm X? RS: Yes. I met Malcolm X first at Brown University when I was a student at Rhode Island School of Design on May 11th, my wife-to-be’s birthday, when he spoke at Brown University and, for the first time I was aware of, he explained there was a difference between the house Negro and the field hand. JJ: When you were there? RS: When I was there. JJ: He spoke then? RS: I was almost arrested there. [00:13:00] JJ: And how did you understand that to be? RS: I understood that to be some -- they weren’t called Blacks at the time -- some Negroes identified more with their master. As Malcolm explained, they so identified with the master, they’d say, “We sick, Master?” And when their house was on fire, they’d say, “Our house in on fire,” when the field hands would pray for a strong wind. So, that was 1961. JJ: But you were not African American at that time. 6 �RS: No, I’m just getting darker. I don’t know. JJ: (laughs) RS: Last time I was arrested, I was called a Hispanic male by the police. JJ: Right. RS: And I can’t speak a word of Spanish. JJ: So, how did you feel then? RS: I identified on the ricochet of the injustice that is they hit the Blacks and the Latinos. And I stood for [00:14:00] justice, and I [had written?] carefully but in action of the students. And they set a wildfire all over America, north and south. Malcolm says the South was down south and up south, south of the Canadian border. I and my wife had to -- 1962, Linda Thompson married me. Went to Baltimore, Maryland at the Maryland Institute of Art where I walked into a fellowship of sculpture. That meant I, as an undergraduate, went to a graduate degree program. I didn’t get a graduate degree, but I had my own studio, and I could participate in the southern movement, which is why I moved from Providence down to Baltimore, which is the up south now of south, [00:15:00] if you understand what I mean. JJ: Okay, so you’re in the southern movement. What is that? RS: It’s interesting. Baltimore, at that time, had white only, colored -- whatever color that was -- and men and women jobs listed, colored apartments, white apartment. And the building trades and the union movement turned their backs on the Blacks and Latinos. But I learned in the movement in real life, and I had the best teachers in the country, not only Malcolm X but Gloria Richardson in 7 �Cambridge, Maryland. My wife and I, with 30 others, were accused of assaulting a cop who said, “Halt,” when we were marching to jail against the unjust arrest of our leaders. JJ: So, you went to [00:16:00] jail? RS: Oh, several times. I was arrested for inciting a riot outside of a penitentiary built before the Civil War. I was outside the penitentiary. I won that case, didn’t I? What is my batting average? I used to say a thousand. But I’ve been arrested many times. I was arrested at least from that penitentiary where we fought all the jails in Baltimore to crack the theater discrimination right next to the Morgan State College, a predominantly Black school at that time, in ’63, I think in February 28th. You can Google it and look it up, very simple. Obama says today we’re having a discussion on classification but everything’s classified. I say we should have that discussion, but everything I say can be verified. You can Google it. [00:17:00] Now, I re-met Malcolm after there was a big pressure, when ’63 was hot. The press didn’t call the bombing of A.D. King, Martin Luther King’s brother - his house was demolished and Martin Luther King’s office was blown apart. And women and children had dogs sicced on them and were practically blown away with water hoses. That was in spring campaign of Birmingham. JJ: Did you see any other? RS: I didn’t see Birmingham, but I saw the Eastern Shore of Maryland, which is like the deep South. In Cambridge, Maryland, there are only 15,000 population in total, and Race Street cut right through the town. [00:18:00] And there was martial law in Cambridge, Maryland. And Gloria Richardson, who later became a 8 �friend of Malcolm’s, was a leader of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. We were all charged with assault, I told you before, 30 of us socalled assaulting a police officer. Then we were given a deal like kids today are given a deal. Plead guilty to this assault, which is a felony, and they would fine us a penny and suspend it. We said no. The martial law was declared in Cambridge, Maryland because the Black population was getting unruly. That is they were demanding rights. [00:19:00] John F. Kennedy’s brother, Robert Kennedy, put together a package that could be a referendum of rights. Gloria Richardson said then and said it today -- she’s 91 years old and lives in New York -- that there can be no voting on inherent rights. You can’t vote on rights. For this, she was opposed by every major civil rights leader because she was told to accept the referendum and accept that deal. Well, let me go back to ’63. There was such heat in the country at that time that Malcolm supporters and Martin Luther King supporters got together in Detroit on June 23rd, didn’t they? And they had a march of 125,000, 99.9 percent Black [00:20:00] and practically a hundred percent working people. That was June 23, 1963, 20 years after the race riots in Detroit of 1943. Google it. Look it up. Martin Luther King gave his first “I Have a Dream” speech here in Detroit that became a cry throughout the country that there should be a march on Washington. By that, they meant Congress. JJ: And you were doing what at that time? RS: I was helping organize that march -- JJ: -- From where, at what time -- 9 �RS: -- from Chicago with the Friends of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Kennedy called up Daley. JJ: How did you get to Chicago? RS: The Young Socialist Alliance was running a summer school. I was heading up a group within -- of 50 young socialists who were predominantly white, [00:21:00] predominantly middle class students, to head an intervention into the civil rights movement. JJ: What does that mean? RS: An intervention means that you participate, learn, and advance the struggle. While I was in the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee -- JJ: -- How did you advance the struggle? RS: Very simply. The NAACP who was in Daley’s pocket of his machine called the Freedom March. And the NAACP instructed everybody in Chicago to participate in the march but had no signs against Mayor Daley. But Mayor Daley, being full of himself, blew it. He came in front of the NAACP convention [00:22:00] and calmly announced, “There are no ghettoes in Chicago.” This was a slap in the face to not only Blacks in Chicago and all justice loving people in the world but it was an opening for the Friends of the SNCC to form a contingent in that freedom march, which was led, supposedly, by Mayor Richard Daley. And he marched four hours in the hot sun. And we had a contingent that was applauded all along the march that ended up in a rally at Grant Park. We said, “To end Jim Crow, Daley must go.” We then proceeded to picket, my wife and I went, a couple people from SNCC, one from Mississippi named Lafeyette Surney, [00:23:00] a 10 �couple bus drivers, and a National African American Organization organization, maybe 12 of us. We came with our picket signs, “Daley Must Go.” The NAACP came out and tried to stop us with force. But we were veterans from the struggle in the South, and we just sat down. And the moment we were sitting down and the cops would have been thrown over our heads, 20,000 people stood up and booed Mayor Daley right off the stage. The only thing he could say is, “I think there are some Republicans here.” And then, Dr. Joseph H. Jackson, head of the Baptist Convention, who hated Martin Luther King with a passion and was against a march on Washington -- this is July 4, 1963. Mind you, the [00:24:00] march on Washington was going to be organized yet to be for August 28th, a jobs and justice and freedom march at Washington. The original idea was to assemble at Congress because they were run by the Dixiecrats in the South who ran everything. We were cautioned by the Democrats to go slow. Our slogan was “Freedom Now,” and we were bold. And we were strong. And we had the eyes of the whole world, including Africa, on our side and watching the struggle intently. Joseph H. Jackson, Dr. Joseph H. Jackson got this far out of his chair, and he got booed [00:25:00] too, right off the stage. That’s how hot the consciousness of the Black-led movement was in ’63. But there were many whites also who understood what the unity of the Blacks, as symbolized by Malcolm’s followers and Martin’s followers in Detroit, that unity and demand for freedom now, freedom, justice, and equality at that time was such that it put a wedge in the white community. Mind you, 20 years before there was a riot of white workers against Blacks moving into white so-called housing areas. 11 �[00:26:00] Just 20 years later, there was a massive march in Detroit. There was 20,000 marching in Chicago, and Kennedy said we must do something. So, they created the Big Six, Whitney Young of the Urban League, John Lewis of the SNCC, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, Roy Wilkins of the NAACP, Whitney Young -- I said that already, CORE, Congress of Racial Equality, James Farmer, and -- I’m not sure I got them all. JJ: And where were you? RS: I was driving from Chicago with Lafeyette Surney and Charles Lindy in a car that was donated to the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. But people donated their cars that had clay in the wheel. [00:27:00] And we went through that narrow tunnel in Pittsburgh and our car went from side to side. And this was a dangerous thing to give to the movement. But we held on. And thousands and thousands and thousands, one quarter of a million people assembled, not at Congress, but with the intervention of the Kennedy administration, at the Lincoln Memorial. Gloria Richardson was supposed to speak there, and she would have been the only woman representative. And Bayard Rustin and other march organizers agreed that the microphone should be snatched from her face. They did that largely because they couldn’t control what John Lewis was going to say, [00:28:00] John Lewis of SNCC. So, interestingly, I stayed with SNCC people because we were going to have a meeting after the march on Washington at the Statler Hotel. My roommate -- and I’ll say his name -- Lafeyette Surney from Louisville, Mississippi -- good man -- picked up a girl that night, the night of August 28th. I couldn’t get into my room. I went down to the lobby and Malcolm 12 �X and Jeremiah X walked in. And Malcolm spoke to me for 40 minutes. And he said, “George Washington was a revolutionary in the sense that he knew that bloodshed was necessary for separation from England and independence.” He said that the landless against the landlord in the French Revolution required blood. [00:29:00] And he told me that that night in that 40 minute exchange. And he also said the Russian peasant had to fight for land against the landlord, and it required blood. So, Malcolm said around that time, that if you really understood revolution -- some of these people talking about a revolution would shy away, would turn away because of what it requires, a blood sacrifice. And that goes all the way down to the struggle of Blacks and Latinos here in this country. Puerto Rico became citizens of this country in a so-called free associated state. Cuba had the nominal independence, but that was sufficient [00:30:00] to set the basis for a revolution in that island that inspired me of -JJ: -- How did it inspire you? RS: Because they beat Batista after the Granma was shot up. JJ: But I mean, did you know anything about Cuba? RS: I learned from Cuba in the headlines because prior to Castro taking power, it became clear to most of us that Batista was a bloody dictator. Granma was shot up -- JJ: -- But I mean, to the American public -- RS: -- To the American public -- JJ: -- It became clear that he was a dictator -- 13 �RS: -- clear that he was a dictator. And Castro was supported all over. He spoke before 10,000 at Harvard University stadium, 10,000. It was after Castro spoke to Eisenhower and said that the [00:31:00] sugar lands owned by United Fruit must be run by the workers themselves and agrarian reform, land reform had to be carried out for the revolution. That’s when Eisenhower and then Kennedy, through Allen Dulles -- who by the way, had hundreds of affairs. People say one CIA guy had to leave just recently because of an affair. But something is going on. Before Kennedy was inaugurated, three days before Kennedy was inaugurated, Lumumba was killed. We picketed Kennedy because he’s the one that supplied the mercenaries, army, by the tens and tens of thousands. [00:32:00] JJ: Who is “we”? RS: Those like Maya Angelou, the Nation of Islam, the peace movement, those beginning to be conscious of American African struggles. Lumumba went to the eighth grade but spoke for all of Africa. And his best friend, Mobutu, turned on him, not unlike the turning of John Ali, national secretary to the Nation of Islam, turned on Malcolm and set him up. They did all of this, Kennedy especially did this because they wanted the minerals and the wealth of the Congo. And if you go to the Kennedy Library in Boston today, you’ll see a nice little cabinet of minerals [00:33:00] given to them by Mobutu as it represents and offering, like some conquered peoples did to the pharaohs of ancient Egypt. That is what America is seen by more and more people today. Now, how were our eyes 14 �opened? Kennedy went into Laos, went into Cuba. On April 15th, I got arrested -- I didn’t get arrested -- I was told I couldn’t picket legally. JJ: What town was this? RS: April 15, 1961, in Providence, Rhode Island with Brown students and Rhode Island School of Design [00:34:00] students and a Cuban student and a fighter named [George Obujo?], who was a middle weight contender from Cape Verde. Many people were pro-Cuban at that time. But we said that it should be hands off Cuba. That was April 15th. The cops said we couldn’t picket. I went to look for a lawyer, and a lawyer came down the street, ACLU. God works in mysterious ways. He’s right on time for me. I said, “Do we need a permit to picket the federal offices of the post office?” And he said, “The only time you need a parade permit to picket under the first amendment is when you’re taking animals through town like Barnum & Bailey.” What a circus the cops tried to make. So, I said, “If you back us up, we’ll go right there.” [00:35:00] We went there with about 15 students. The cops grabbed our signs. I admit I held mine a little harder. So, they wrenched them out. And that was on TV and on the front page of the Providence Journal. Cops sometimes acted their own foolish ways, make up their own laws, and get themselves hurt in the process. At that time, the mafia was centered around a man named Patriarca in Providence. And young toughs from Federal Hill in Providence said that students, the protesters, should follow the leaders because they’re going to be our leaders. And they would pick their best man and then I should pick our best man and have a fistfight. And that’s in the [00:36:00] Providence General Article. And that can be retrieved any 15 �time. And that was 1961. But I began to know about the Puerto Rican struggle because the movement for independence was gaining strength among the leadership of Juan Mari Brás. JJ: Okay, did you meet Juan Mari Brás? RS: No. I heard the voices or the cry going through Boricua. There was a chant. I don’t know the Spanish of it. But it says, “Juan Mari for sure, Seguro. A Yankee dally duro. Hit the Yankees hard.” I was very inspired by the Puerto Ricans, on the island and [00:37:00] -- since I grew up in New Jersey, mainly I knew them from New York. I didn’t meet Puerto Ricans in Chicago. JJ: Was there a big movement in New York at that time? RS: There was a recognition that there was a community of Puerto Ricans. And that was reflected in a best -- what do you call it? Not best-selling -- oh, I’m a loss of words. There was a Broadway musical presented called the West Side Story where the gang was the Puerto Ricans -- of course they carried knives -- and the Jets. And in 1960, that was a popular, popular movie. [00:38:00] Later on, as things developed in the Black Panthers and the Young Lords, Bernstein raised funds for both of those organizations. JJ: Who was Bernstein? The producer? RS: The composer and the conductor. And he wrote the music for the West Side Story. So, you know, it was beginning to be in the national consciousness when this story came out, really a Romeo and Juliet story. JJ: So, the left -- 16 �RS: -- Not just the left, everybody applauded that movement. Mind you, this was just after WWII and Korea. JJ: You know the Young Lords got their colors from West Side Story? RS: Excellent. JJ: Black and purple. [00:39:00] (laughs) RS: Excellent. You have to understand when we fought WWII, it wasn’t for freedom and democracy, it was for world rule. And Korea wasn’t fought for the world democracy because we had a dictator named Syngman Rhee doing our dirty work in South Korea. Malcolm alluded -- JJ: -- What dirty work? What do you mean? RS: They were killing their own Korean brothers at the behest of the United States who wanted to put pressure on the Chinese Revolution. You know there was a worldwide anti-colonial revolt after WWII. [00:40:00] Ghana, led by Nkrumah, came out of the imperialist British army and demanded freedom for Africa. That was in the late ’50s. And spirit has a way of being contagious. JJ: How are you familiarizing yourself with all these African struggles? RS: Well, we had a -- JJ: -- Why are you familiarizing yourself with that? RS: They were calling the Mau Mau, who were the freedom fighters of Kenya, terrorists. And yet, we were murdering freedom fighters in the Congo. We were murdering freedom fighters in South Africa. United States -- I said “we.” The United States government and those who operate the government [00:41:00] in secrecy were murdering freedom lovers in Angola. 17 �JJ: So, this is coming out in the -- RS: -- Early ’60s -- JJ: -- in the tabloids? How are you -- RS: -- How did we know about it? JJ: Or just in the news? You were getting it from the news. RS: We hear it from the news and also in SNCC. JJ: How did you hear about it in SNCC. RS: Through songs. JJ: What kind of songs? RS: Well, you know the word “uhuru” is a Swahili word, one of the languages spoken in -- excuse me. I have to get water from time to time. JJ: So, they’re using Swahili words in SNCC? RS: Uhuru, adelante, advance. JJ: Right. RS: This is in the early ’60s. The civil rights cauldron impacted everybody here and around the world. We used to go down to what we called freedom rallies in between Washington and Baltimore. Stokely Carmichael was in Howard. JJ: Who’s “we?” Were you part of that? RS: I was part of a group called the Civic Interest Group. That’s a SNCC affiliate from Morgan State College. National -- NAG -- Action Group was let by Stokely Carmichael, Stanley Wise, and Cortland Cox. JJ: So, were you in contact with Stokely -- 18 �RS: We were in contact with them in ’62. We used to go down the Route 40, and they’d say, “We don’t serve colored people here.” Three of us would go in at a time. This is ’62, two years after the sit-ins started. [00:43:00] They’d say, “We don’t serve colored people.” We’d say, “We don’t eat colored people. But we’d like to get served. We don’t eat them ourselves.” The police officers would take their nightsticks and make them in day sticks and bang the seats that we were on and said, “Move.” JJ: They did that to you? RS: They didn’t hit me. They hit the seat. “Move or you’ll be arrested for criminal trespass.” That was the law of the land even after Brown v Plessy [sic] and the Board of Education said segregation was illegal. But proceed at all deliberate speed. The Ku Klux Klan wore two outfits at that time. [00:44:00] The white hoods that we saw in 1918, parading 100,000 strong in Washington and in Indianapolis and throughout America and the uniform of the police. Remember, Mississippi would fly that Confederate flag. Mind you, the Confederacy was in rebellion against the United States. And there’s a large monument to the veterans that fought the great rebellion in Jamaica Plain, where you, Cha Cha, spent some time. That was a Latino area in the ’60s before it got gentrified. You could buy a house for $11,000, a mansion, [00:45:00] and the whites grabbed them up. You could own property in those times. Now today, they’re struggling for everything to have a roof over their heads, but they own no property. They have no assets. I tell my construction workers, the only asset you have is the ass that you’re sitting on. We don’t have assets but we have ass sits, and we 19 �can’t sit around much longer. But let’s go back to the officer who said we’re going to have criminal trespass. We’d say, “You have to read the trespass act first.” So, the waiter would sit there saying, “Whence forth the party of the (inaudible) known henceforth as the landlord and the party of the second forth, blah, blah, blah, blah,” [00:46:00] under great tension. Then we would decide. Are we going to get arrested, or are we going to step out and another team of three come in? We would do that all day, every Saturday, and not be served at all. So, we’d bring our lunch with us. We knew how to survive, but we did it in style. And at night, we could hear Ray Charles and the Raelettes, didn’t we? And they’d have [armory?] with Ray Charles and the Raelettes, and you could bring your own food and your own drink. And we’d have a party, and we’d raise funds for the movement. We didn’t organize the party. Ray Charles and the Raelettes organized the party or his producer. This is 1962. We had great parties like the time -JJ: -- So, Ray Charles was supporting [00:47:00] the movement at -- RS: -- Oh, many, many -- Charles Mingus was supporting the movement. They were afraid to let him out. He says, “I’ll sit in.” Let’s be careful, be careful because we had all kinds of people in the movement. Some people would turn on the power and off the power of the buses, just by being church leaders, and other people from the church would act like Christians or Jews or Islam. People don’t understand. That stamp that honors Malcolm X honors the only Muslim so honored in the postal service. They make a disconnect. There’s a billion Catholics in this world and there’s over a billion Muslims. [00:48:00] We learn 20 �every rotten filthy murderous escapade this government was involved in when a half a million so-called communist peasants were killed in Indonesia, Kennedy’s successor -- Joseph -- what’s the cracker from Texas’s name? Lyndon Johnson said that’s the way we should handle Vietnam, a half a million dead in ’65. We had a half a million troops -- not we. I say “we” interchangeably. The United States positioned men, [00:48:00] drafted them, and put them in Vietnam. Sixtyeight thousand didn’t come home, one of them my cousins, Jack Sheppard, didn’t come home, killed around the time I met Cha Cha, just that time. I’ll get to that. Anyway, if they shoot the peasant now in Indonesia, they’ll call them Muslims. It’s called a bait and switch. But I’ll move forward. In ’68 -- was a hot year. JJ: So, where were you in ’68? I mean, where was your family? Where were you at? RS: In ’68 -- my eldest son was born in ’64. JJ: What’s his first name? RS: His name is Daniel Ford Sheppard. Daniel means the “footman of all [00:50:00] prophesy.” I named him after a man that I met in school who was the janitor from Ireland who told me how they would pop the Brits in the lorries coming to do dirty work in the struggle for freedom in Ireland in the early ’20s. Daniel Riley was a big man. JJ: So, you were very nationalistic in terms of Ireland, your country? RS: I learned about the struggle of Ireland through the socialist movement. James Connolly, who went to his death in the Easter Rebellion in 1916, was a socialist. 21 �That was a dirty word in the ’50s. It’s a proud word now. Capitalism is becoming a dirty word. Things are getting reversed. [00:51:00] However, Stokely and Bernadette Devlin went on tours in the ’60s. Bernadette Devlin was the young woman represented Northern Ireland in the British Parliament. She wore mini dresses. She was 19. Later, she was shot up as the wife of McAliskey, Bernadette Devlin McAliskey. But she spoke in Boston with Stokely Carmichael. Stokely was an internationalist. Bernadette was an internationalist. The Puerto Ricans movement taught me that they were internationalists. They had to think globally and act locally, and that’s what the Young Lords were doing all the time. All the time. I’ll fast forward to May 7th because I’ve been involved in everything [00:52:00] from 1960 until now. In 1970 -- prior to 1970, me arriving to Chicago in January, there was a shooting that was set up by the FBI and the police department under Daley, of Fred Hampton and Mark Clark on December -- I think it was the third. JJ: Fourth. RS: Fourth, somewhere around there, December 4, 1969. I met Cha Cha with the leader of the NPI who was teaching at the University of Chicago after he got kicked out of the University of Puerto Rico, a man who had his distinguished scholarly career and was independentista and a socialist at that time. JJ: Who was that? RS: Dr. Richard Levins who’s now in his eighties. He went to Cuba [00:53:00] to meet with Castro. Through my wonderful intercession, intervention of Adolfo Rodriguez in Boston from the NPI, I learned they were pro-Cuba, pro-liberty, 22 �Libertad, and pro self-determination for Cuba, for Puerto Rico, for the whole world, and especially Puerto Ricans here. Now, a thing developed in the anti-war movement. There was a successful campaign against the draft where they said, “No blood tax without representation in Puerto Rico.” They couldn’t touch anybody in Puerto Rico for that draft. But Puerto Ricans over here could be touched. They were touched [00:54:00] severely. Meanwhile, what were the unions doing? Well, there were contradictory forces going on in the unions, but the unions weren’t acting in defense of all workers, especially the most oppressed. You know there was only three unions that supported the march on Washington in ’63? That’s the UAW, 1199, and -- I forget the third. But UAW was strong because Detroit was so strong because -- Motor City. There’s a song by -- this is an aside -- there’s a song by Gregory Porter who just won a Grammy called “Sixties what? sixties Who? The Motor City’s burning. You don’t need sunlight. You don’t need moonlight. [00:55:00] You don’t need streetlight. There’s a bright light. The Motor City’s burning.” Hear it. Google it. YouTube Gregory Porter and it will come up. That’s the beauty of things today. What you say can be heard around the world and reheard and rebroadcast and taken in. And he’s a young man in his forties like my young man now is almost 50. But he’s special needs. But he was picketing in the Vietnam War movement. And the civil rights movement gave birth to the anti-war movement and to the Chicano Power movement and to the Puerto Rican Power movement. Power to the people wasn’t just a slogan, it was a program. [00:56:00] So, I came to Chicago in January, right after the slaughter -- 23 �JJ: -- In 1970 -- RS: -- of 1970, right after the slaughter of Mark Clark and Fred Hampton that was set up by one of their friends for $300 where they drew exactly where Fred Hampton was sleeping. JJ: You mean O’Neal? RS: Yes. Cha Cha knows it intimately because he’s part of the struggle, shoulder to shoulder with the Black Panthers. That’s why he had more trouble as a gang member when he was political than when he was a gang member. And he was in a legitimate gang, that is, bona fide gang that became conscious [00:57:00] of the whole ’60s movement. And they became, not just students of the movement -- they became teachers and learners of the movement. JJ: Why do you say that? RS: Because -- JJ: -- Or how can you say that? Were you around there? RS: I noticed that the people’s church became a church of the people. That’s extraordinary. JJ: What do you mean? How did you notice this? RS: Well, not only did it (inaudible) people’s church -- JJ: -- Were you living in Lincoln Park? RS: I wasn’t living in Lincoln Park. I was living in Austin, the West Side. There’s two big Black ghettoes in Chicago, South Side, which is bigger than Boston, and the West Side. We’d say that was the best side. But Lincoln Park was an area of [00:58:00] Puerto Ricans and Chicanos. I didn’t know there were so many 24 �Chicanos in Chicago. They came up for the steel mills and the industries, and they had a foothold in this powerful brawny city. And I could see the posts of that city. I worked in the construction trade. And I quit my job after I worked with Cha Cha. JJ: So, the Chicanos were living in (inaudible) -- RS: -- Chicago -- JJ: -- in the South Side then coming to -- RS: -- All over Chicago, everywhere. They limited the Puerto Ricans in one area. That was were they built Circle Campus. Yet there were no Puerto Ricans living at their campus. But this is where the working class so far, students went, which were white. They had five times as many [00:59:00] Latinos from outside America at that campus than they had people who grew up here in their own neighborhood. When I met Cha Cha, it was sometime near the end of April. We had previously agreed that we would meet, Mr. Levins, myself, and Cha Cha, to set up some classes about the history of Puerto Rico. I went down to the People’s Church and I noticed angry young men. I don’t mean angry young men like they talk about beatniks. I’m talking about people which had guns on them. They were outraged that women and children were hit by the police and then charged with assaulting the police officer. I came there [01:00:00] and I was shocked. I called around my white radical friends -- I hate to use that term. I call them “Radicos.” Something like liberals by radicals but radicals, more better sounding. I wanted a camera as a way to protect Cha Cha, and I want Dr. Richard Levins there. He came right away because he knew it was a dangerous 25 �situation. The police wanted to arrest Cha Cha where he was organizing, not at his house. They knew his movements everywhere. They didn’t want to shoot him in bed. They wanted this to be a shock within the community. I tell the Young Lords I had just met, “Get rid of the guns. Put them away. This is a setup. What’s wrong with this picture? Why are they having a nine year old arrested for assaulting a police officer? [01:01:00] What could the nine year old do to the police officer? Wasn’t he armed? Didn’t he outweigh him by 30 times? Wasn’t he vicious enough in his heart to do damage, the cop I mean?” Yes to all of those. So, I went to beseech Cha Cha because they asked me, “You are you?” I said, “Roger Sheppard.” I said, “I’ve come here to meet Cha Cha.” I went to meet Cha Cha, and I said, “You’re in a terrible situation.” They’d done this thing as a set-up, and it’s the oldest game in town. And they just played it on Mark Clark and Fred Hampton. Right? And they killed Manuel Ramos in 1969. [01:02:00] And Cha Cha said, “Get rid of the guns.” He even said, “Get rid of the grass.” We’ll be truthful now. And things calmed down. Bongos were played. Everything was peaceful and we were awaiting the cops coming. Dr. Richard Levins was there. I was there. My friend Antonio De Leon didn’t like the confrontation, so he was actually standing across the corner. And all of the actors who came together at a different act this time -- this is act two. And the Young Lords were in charge, not the Chicago police, whose motto “We Serve and Protect” is an oxymoron. [01:03:00] They don’t serve or protect. JJ: Was this in front of the church or at the -- 26 �RS: -- Right in front of the church. They came for Cha Cha in the church. I met Cha Cha in his office, José. But the Lords were lined up on the sidewalk, and I thought they were going to be mowed down. I had a hint about Chicago police because when I came in, they went through my luggage in Austin and they came into my house and said, “Where is all the communist literature coming from?” And I said, “Oh, that must be a term paper of my wife. But thank you for giving it to me because I appreciate you going through all my luggage. Is there anything I can do for you?” And they went away. Then they came around to my [01:04:00] moving truck from Boston and grabbed a plastic toy gun from my son’s toy box. It was in the glove compartment. They said, “What’s this?” I said, “That’s a toy. Can you hand it to me?” So, there’s two incidences. Then I went down to help the Social Workers Party move into the new headquarters. JJ: Where is that? RS: Where was it? JJ: The headquarters, yeah, the Socialist Party. RS: I forget where they moved to. It was downtown. JJ: Oh, it was downtown, okay. RS: But there was a group called Allegiance for Justice. It’s a fascist group that was threatening them. And after I moved everything for my own self, I wanted to use the truck for them to move stuff in. Later I found out the guy who was providing security for us was an agent. JJ: Who [01:05:00] was that? RS: Edward Heisler -- 27 �JJ: -- oh, okay -- RS: -- who I thought was a friend. He was a womanizer, but everybody was a womanizer. The women were womanizers. Funny times. And this guy actively organized in the union movement. And I pushed for him to be on the national committee because he succeeded in getting the right to vote on union contracts throughout the Canadian mail system for the UTU. I said, “He should be represented. We have all these [school boards as new stars?].” And he turns out to be an agent. He asked for his file because he was a good union worker. We wanted to show that the government is infiltrating all aspects like they do today. JJ: So, you were able to get his file at -- RS: -- We got his file when we did a suit against him, which we won, by Leonard Boudin in the ’70s [01:06:00] after the church committee, after the Pentagon papers, after all of that stuff, after they broke into Ellsberg’s psychiatrist’s office. And it was headed by a group called CREEP -- I’m not making this up -Committee to Reelect the President [sic], headed up by the attorney general engaged in skullduggery. They call him “Tricky Dick,” and I won’t go into any synonyms or any jokes, cheap jokes, cheap tricks. But he, like everybody else, did a dirty deal. What they did with the Kennedy brothers is put a whitewash on them because Kennedys were no friend to the civil rights movement. He called out the [01:07:00] Army and installed it in the buildings August 28th. Malcolm X used to call him John “the Fox” Kennedy. When Kennedy was assassinated, I’m 28 �not sure by whom, but the entanglement of the CIA and slippery people in Chicago again -JJ: -- Chicago -- RS: -- Chicago, the mobsters, where he shared Marilyn Monroe with this mobster. I forget his name. Some creep, like the Committee to Reelect the President’s name. Built up a lot of [indebtedness?]. But I remember Kennedy saying, “I wept the Bay of Pigs failed.” Castro defeated them in three days. I was worried because they said lines in the [01:08:00] -- lies in the press. “Change of error defense.” Go back and look April ’61. It was right around the time of Easter. The Unitarian church assistant minster said, “This is like the persecution of Christ.” He got fired by the Unitarians. Ain’t that something, as my oldest boy would say. Ain’t that something? Get fired for speaking the truth from a church on Easter. Hell of a way to run (inaudible). JJ: So, your oldest boy -- so -- RS: -- He’s doing good. JJ: So, how many children do you have? RS: I have three. I spaced them apart. One’s going to be 50 in September, Daniel Ford. JJ: Okay. What’s the other one? RS: My other one’s going to be 34, [01:09:00] Rebecca Sheppard esquire. She’s a lawyer, and she just gave me a beautiful gift of a baby girl who was two months old May 1st, the day of International Immigrants Day and the day of International Working Class Solidarity. I’ll get back to 1970. Oh, my youngest one just got into 29 �the electricians union. He worked retail for 14 years, since he was 14. Could get nowhere. He’d get fined because he couldn’t afford Romney’s insurance, something like Obamacare because he couldn’t make over $9.30 an hour. JJ: Now, you’re working with a union now? RS: I worked 49 years in the Local 103 IBEW, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. But to me, IBEW means “I’ve been everywhere.” [01:10:00] I worked in the railroads. I worked with telephone workers. I worked with electricians. And I worked in the Raytheon plant, all the time have little scuffles. They believe in defeating your enemies and rewarding your friends because they think that’s political. Prove it. But they believe anybody who opposes them is an enemy. So, I had my tires slashed on a couple of occasions. My tire went out on a turnpike in a snowstorm. “Vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom, new tire.” I said, “You owe me a tire to the tire man.” He said, “This has been hit with a sharp instrument like a pocket knife.” And they called me up just beforehand. So, my suspicions led to them. And I had to think it through like I did with the Young Lords. You can’t just [01:11:00] go off the top of your head or with response from the hip. You have to say, “What is going on? Why are they so vicious toward me?” So, I said, “I want a meeting.” This was after I was in the union from ’65 to ’93. I was working for unemployment relief. They changed the law 12 months before unemployment as a base period to go back 18 months, forward 12, discount six. Cost me $5,000. So, I sent [Althea?] to the statehouse, the Grinch stealing Christmas just out of the (inaudible). He patted Cindy Lou and sent her to bed with a cup and he put the tree and shoved the tree up. And I put it in a hard hat because I’m an artist. 30 �Anyway, I drew a little hard hat. He said, “You think this is hard. Try losing your job and your benefits.” [01:12:00] Anyway, I met with them, and I said, “I’m not after your job. I’m not after your job.” That’s what they were concerned about. JJ: If you can describe what you saw in terms of the Young Lords when you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) you’re talking about people that just got involved. RS: Right. I’m sorry. JJ: No, no, that’s fine. RS: Let’s go back to 1970 -- JJ: -- I’m just trying to -- RS: -- in April -- JJ: -- how did you see the Young Lords at that time? I mean, what was going on in that neighborhood. RS: Not only going on in the neighborhood, but going on in the world. That was after ’68. Detroit got hot. Newark got hot. New York got hot. That’s not my words. That’s Farrakhan’s words. That’s what happened in real effect. And Johnson got on the TV with smoke coming out of the White House, and he said, “We must be peaceful.” [01:13:00] This was when he was slaughtering people by the thousands in Vietnam. Sixty-eight thousand didn’t come home for months. But well over a million, a million and a half were dead in Vietnam with napalm, with agent orange, shooting women and children, old people, young people, anybody in a black pajama suit they called Viet Cong. They would have a body count, and they lost the Army right around the time Cha Cha was emerging. There’s a thing 31 �called fragging where gung ho West Pointers would come home and say, “Let’s push the Vietnamese.” And Cha Cha was involved with the Panthers, was involved with the peace movement, [01:14:00] was involved with all movements of social change and especially wanted to teach by action self-determination exists not only for the Black community, but for the Puerto Rican community especially, a people that speaks two or three languages, where I’m an American that can only speak one. I met Omar López who was a minister of education, I believe. Who was a very -JJ: -- information, minister of information -- RS: -- learned man. Minister of information. I met Cha Cha. And that night we came to meet Cha Cha, fortunately, for us, before the police came -- we wanted a camera to protect him. [01:15:00] All of the sudden the guy shows up with a -- I call it a Steve Roper. That’s for old-timers. They had this [graphics?] with a four by five inserted film and a flash, professional photographer taking a picture of Cha Cha getting arrested. So, me and one of the Lords -- I thought it was Omar López -- said, “We’d like to have that film please,” and he gave us the film because he was surrounded by not only the Young Lords but by the community. And that film reveals Cha Cha getting arrested. Later on, just a matter of a week, ten students got shot up, and two weeks later, the Jackson State students got shot up. But this particular time, Cha Cha and I were discussing -- he found out I was an artist -- to design a poster. He says, “I have an idea. A picture of me like this (crosses arms) and say [01:16:00] they can beat us, they can jail us, and they can kill us. But the motherfuckers can’t stop us.” He thought that was a 32 �good thing. I said, “You’ve been beat. You’ve been jailed. And you’ve been killed. But we’d like to use your arrest as a basis of a poster, and we have the ability -- because the students took over the schools -- we have the ability to make a gigantic poster.” And Cha Cha looked at me and say, “I got it. ‘Basta Ya.’ Enough. No more police abuse in our community.” I said, “Beautiful.” I was 28. He was 21. We were exactly seven years apart. But he’s a strong young man. He spent 21 years growing up in this hell of America [01:17:00] that can also be a paradise where, in the twinkling of an eye for making a paradise out of all of the suffering, oppressed people can be the basis of a new society because when you’re oppressed, as a Palestinian man told me once when he was arrested for what he might do by the Israeli defense forces -- he told me when you are oppressed, you have nowhere to go by up. JJ: And I know that there was -- Ralph Rivera was also there. But there were -- what did -- and you said Omar López. What about -- RS: -- Oh, you had such a crew. JJ: What kind of groups were there? RS: Your groups -- when I came there, our main feeling was to get him out of prison as quickly as possible. But they said $2,500 cash bail. This was at a time [01:18:00] when I could by a $15,000 house, $250 down and $160 a month and rent it out for $45 for in law apartment and pay $115. People had property. That $2,500 was more than 20 times that. That’s what you’ve got to understand. I’m talking about 44 years ago. We raised that bail in one night. And I usually like to work hard with anybody. 33 �JJ: How did you do that? RS: We went out to everybody we could think of. And when they saw that beret, that purple beret, the doors would open. We went over to Studs Terkel’s house. I forget whether it was Omar or somebody else. At that time, we used to -- if somebody had smokes, we all had smokes. If somebody had a dollar, we all had a dollar. If somebody could get food, we all had food. [01:19:00] That’s the way they worked it. Socialists, not so much. Socialists -- this is mine, like a two years old. But the Young Lords knew how to share because that’s how they got through life. And that’s why I said they were teaching. But we went to Studs Terkel’s house -- I remember -- and he wrote out a check for $50. Mine you, that’s $500 -- no, that’s a $1,000 today, at least, at least. We said, “No, no, no. We need cash.” He went back in and gave us $50. I stayed up all night with the Lords. Lords told me -- they said, “You know, you’re the first socialist I’ve seen working with us.” I said, “Well, that’s going to change.” [01:20:00] To my regret, it didn’t, but I’ll go into that later. The Lords set an example by how they functioned. The Panthers, at that time, were reeling from attacks on the government, reeling from inside fights by COINTELPRO -- that’s the FBI disruption campaign -- and trying to work with people who had no money, which means they can be desperate. That’s difficult times. But the Young Lords went through the exact same thing. But the heart and their culture was a giving culture, and they set a moral example to be upright and walk upright [01:21:00] like Malcolm X was teaching and Elijah Muhammad and many others, Jesus and Muhammad, all of the prophets. They were all out of the cities. They all disliked 34 �the corruption that was going on in their church. It wasn’t church, it was synagogues. And they would continually renew the church. But to me, the Young Lords embodied that religious spirit of sharing and giving. That’s what struck me, the comradeship. JJ: A religious spirit, you’re saying? RS: I’m saying the holy spirit of giving. See, people somehow -- whatever they say, we see the consciousness decides what the hands are going to do. Steve Biko in the Black Conscious Movement in South Africa [01:22:00] said the biggest weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed. What Cha Cha and the Young Lords were doing was consciousness raising, like the women’s movement said they were doing. But we think of the women’s movement often as white women. But there are Latino women and Black women, and they each have a different take, not as many differences as some other period, not here. But what they did in spirit -- spirit simply means “I breathe,” spiro. That’s the Latin word for “I breathe.” Respiration means you breathe again. Expire means you breath out for the last time. Conspire means you breathe with. [01:23:00] And I know because I took Latin. It’s part of the human soul and condition. The thing about religion is it gets in the way sometimes of religiosity, real righteousness, often gets in the way. In that parable that Jesus said about the Samaritan, he was talking about the Levites who were the rabbi class of the Jews. They didn’t help a man. But the Young Lords would go out of their way because that was their business. It wasn’t a business. One thing that irks me about -- JJ: -- Can you give me some examples? 35 �RS: Oh, yes. They were going to set up a breakfast for children program. But the best example I saw was that 24 hours we raised the $2,500. We weren’t a large group. We raised that $2,5000 in cash. [01:24:00] And I must admit, we were proud of presenting that cash. And I had my doubts about the (inaudible) that Cha Cha was engaged in because he said -- (inaudible) to badmouth on him. He was a white guy. And I thought he wasn’t treating it as a serious matter. And Cha Cha was facing serious charges because of who and what he was. He was an organizer, and he taught other people to organize and work together as a group. It’s not as easy as it sounds, especially when you have the whole power of the state and some churches and others powered on top of you and spurious charges on you. Anyway, the Young Lords came to the students who were rallying in defense of the Kent State and Jackson State and said [01:25:00] simply, “Power to the students.” And they had an emotional outburst from everybody. And I think a little relief because they had other people pose as revolutionaries, would castigate students who were doing the right thing. “You’re not here (inaudible) you. The revolution was begun. Time to pick up the gun.” Little limerick that you might read in a Chinese fortune cookie. But we weren’t playing revolution, and the Young Lords were deadly serious. That’s why the idea has never died. JJ: So, did you see any women at all -- RS: -- Oh yes -- JJ: -- involved? 36 �RS: They were powerful. Unfortunately and fortunately -- I’ll tell you a funny story. [01:26:00] Since I was in Chicago for the second time -- ’63 first time, ’70 second time -- police introduced themselves by stopping my truck. “You’re riding on a boulevard. You can be charged with that.” I said, “What a boulevard?” “This is a boulevard.” That was three o’clock in the morning. I got three times hit by the police. There was a group called the Weathermen. They wanted to have a street fight like Bill Ayers. Street fight the cops but his daddy owned all the utilities in Chicago. What’s wrong with that picture? I’ll tell you what, in 1970 in May 4th, with the help of the Young Lords and the movement giving them some support, the Young Lords were honored throughout the movement. This was a movement of one million [01:27:00] students. I spoke two minutes. I quit my job immediately when this happened. I didn’t (inaudible) Young Lords. I’d work, stay up all night, and go to work. I didn’t care. Like tonight. No big deal. There was the Circle Campus, Illinois University -- what do you call it -- University of Illinois Circle Campus. I told my comrades that we’re going to have a meeting. How are we going to take over the school? Well, we’ll have a meeting of 8,000 students in the meeting. You’re going to say, “What should we do?” I say we need some facilities to organize this massive movement and shut this country down. That’s what I told them. The students answered me in one voice. They said, “We have no power.” I said, “You are the power.” And the [01:28:00] administrators came with the key, that simple. And we had WATS lines. That was a big gift because WATS lines meant we could call anywhere free in the country. Now everybody has a WATS line in their pocket. I don’t know where mine is. But any cell phone 37 �can reach the whole world, can reach the whole world. They study mimeographing. I remember the Lords were happy to get some paper. They were happy for anything. They didn’t look a gift horse in the mouth. Some jaded revolutionaries -- I hate to say this. This is nothing against the Young Lords but against radicals that I’ve grown up with. They might have meant well when they were young, but they began to be involved in money and their this and that. They’re what they French say, “They shit the bed,” lâcher une. [01:29:00] They’re not here. Where are they? Well, they’re having a hard time too. Everybody here's having a hard time. But the Lords had gratitude. And gratitude goes a long way in this world. If you think you’ve got nothing, think about what you have. They had real comradeship. I went to a forum with Clifton DeBerry who organized Montgomery support, station wagons so they could sustain their boycott. He was a Black man from Chicago. And he gave a May Day speech that was the best May Day speech I ever heard. That was because he noticed five Young Lords in the audience. I was told by some of my comrades that I was patronizing the Young Lords by offering them a Coke without them paying. [01:30:00] (Laughs) I think I lost my hair because I went to too many meetings with folks, too many. But I liked the Young Lords because they had action, on the spot action, and they were facing enormous odds, and they overcame it. And I’ll tell you another thing. The Young Lords created -- when I’m talking about spirit and spirit’s contagious -- the movement jumped to New York but had a slightly different flavor, came from Columbia University and other places like that, not from the street. It was good they had students get involved, but they sometimes 38 �forgot where they came from [01:31:00] and that’s not a good thing. And I’ll close just with this. The Young Lords have shown me one thing very much. I was taught by many, many people, old-timers and youngster and everything else, and I learned it when I was a kid. And it’s a little thing from the Bible. I don’t even know what chapter it is. It’s this. It’s not money that’s the root of all evil. It’s the love of money that’s the root of all evil. The love of money gets you in front of any god that they worship, any friend that they have, and any lover that they have. The love of money is the root of all evil. And the Young Lords practiced love. As Che Guevara said, at the base of everything a revolutionary stands for is love. [01:32:00] And the Young Lords not only developed the community around their community, remember they thought locally, they acted locally, and they also acted globally and acted globally. JJ: Can you give an example of that? RS: I saw them when they participated in a forum -- just for one little example -because things were moving very quick. All the students were taking over all the schools. (inaudible) was even doing something like they wanted to have their parking lot open. And they were sitting there with a car so that people could come in. That was a nice gesture. Then all of the sudden they said to just smash the thing and open it up. But we had to be very careful. Now mind you, ’68 was a police riot in Chicago against demonstrators that wanted peace, a police riot [01:33:00] against peace all throughout the world shown when Mayor Daley said that (chin flick gesture) to a gentleman who was calling them gestapo. So, they had a deal with this police. What we did is we got the theology students 39 �to surround the ROTC building. No Weathermen so-called revolutionaries were going to touch the ROTC building. And we did that all the way around because we had hundreds of volunteers. And then, we organized 100,000. And (air quotes) “we” this time meant those students who were fighting against the tuition hikes on May 4th. We were going to have an organizing meeting of 20, and they came up with 2,000. And we called that the strike [01:34:00] council. And everything went through this strike council. And I remember a funny incident. This is -- I don’t want to close on this. I’ll close on another thing. There was a woman that we worked with who was a member of the Communist Party. We knew that. And she wanted to have a speaker. But she thought it should be arranged from the inside without going through the council. So, I said -- she wanted a Young Patriots of some kind to come speak, and I didn’t know about them. I said, “Let’s bring it up before the strike council.” She said, “You’re against me because I’m a communist.” I said, “Are you a communist?” She said, “Yes.” I said, “Goddammit, then act like one.” Then we just took that and ran. But the strike council organized that hundred thousand. It became 2,500 [01:35:00] and then 3,000 and they made all the decisions democratically and the Young Lords were represented there. JJ: So, this was a group of a lot of different organizations? RS: Many, many. And one person, one vote. That was new and democratic and moved fast and efficiently. The Young Lords came up before a meeting. Rallies were held everywhere to educate and bring everybody up to snuff. And people were paying attention because a lot of lives were being lost in Vietnam and 40 �elsewhere, right on the streets of Chicago. They were paying attention. Listen, listen, listen. Too much blood has been spilt. That’s where the red flag gets its name from. Don’t you know? A bloodstain banner. An old spiritual, (singing) “We’re going to hold up the bloodstain banner. We’re going to hold it up until we die. We are soldiers in the [01:36:00] Army. We’re going to fight although we have to die. We’re going to hold -- we’re going to hold up the bloodstain banner. We’re going to hold it up until we die. My mother, she was a soldier. She had her hand on the freedom plow. But one day, she got old. She couldn’t fight anymore. But she stood there and fought anyhow.” Well, the Young Lords participated with a man that I knew as a spokesman for the IRA officials in Ireland. There was always a guy with a trench coat -- I thought that was out of the movies -- standing with him. His name was Malachi McCourt. He refused to speak in racist Southie Boston because they were racist on the same platform as Louise Day Hicks and Whitey Bulger. [01:37:00] But the Young Lords are there to give an international view, and a national view. The IRA was there to give an international view and a national view. And many, many different speakers were there. And everybody paid attention those days because that strike struck a chord in America. We’re only talking about two weeks that I was involved with the Lords but I (inaudible) had a good time. Didn’t I? God has seen that I am in the right place at the right time. Huh? My twin brother was there when Malcolm got shot. I did a forum with [01:38:00] John Ali, the guy who set up Malcolm, national secretary to the Nation of Islam. And he spoke, and I didn’t have the -his heart wasn’t in it. And I find out 35 years later in The Judas Factor by Karl 41 �Evanzz who went through 200,000 files of FBI files that John Ali was acting as an agent and set him up. Betrayal. You hear it all the time. It happened in the Panthers resulting in the death and destruction of the Black Panther Party led by the FBI, the CIA, and those liberal Democrats. That’ll close. JJ: Okay. Want to close with that? RS: Yeah. What would you like to close with? JJ: No, no, that’s fine. That’s a good closing. That was great. Let me just make sure that we [01:39:00] don’t have to redo that. RS: Okay. JJ: (laughs) RS: You’re funny. END OF AUDIO FILE 42 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/781ddc4e7fde4fd10fb7d97d16ea53a2.mp4 3290a036948cbaafe82e4dddb619fd7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Roger Sheppard vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Historia oral de Roger Sheppard, entrevistado por José 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 23/10/2016 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Sheppard_Roger Title A name given to the resource Roger Sheppard video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheppard, Roger Description An account of the resource Oral history of Roger Sheppard, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez on October 23, 2016 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e2896025780c3b124057dc8120ec6d84.pdf c059496ddbbca90bad55c7592281edba PDF Text Text Young   L ords   In  Lincoln  Park   Interviewee:  Lenny  Foster   Interviewers:  Jose  Jimenez   Location:  Grand  Valley  State  University  Special  Collections   Date:  10/4/2016   Runtime:  01:13:41         Biography  and  Description   Oral  history  of  Lenny  Foster,  interviewed  by  Jose  “Cha-­‐Cha”  Jimenez  on  October  04,  2016  about  the   Young  Lords  in  Lincoln  Park.   Lenny  Foster  grew  up  speaking  his  native  Navajo  language  with  his  parents  as  a  sheep  herder  on  a   farm  in  the  reservation.  During  World  War  II,  Navajo  US  veterans  were  called  code  talkers  because   they  could  infiltrate  the  Japanese  and  speak  in  their  native  tongue  without  being  detected.  His  dad   was  also  a  U.S.  Marine  radio  operator.  When  Lenny  attended  Arizona  Western  College  he  joined   their  baseball  team  and  played  well.  He  said  then  is  when,  “he  realized  he  did  not  have  any  money.”   In  1981,  he  attended  graduate  school  at  Arizona  State  University.  He  was  asked  to  meet  with  Native   Americans  at  a  prison  because  he  is  a  Sun  Dancer  or  spiritual  leader.  “Preach  and  Teach”  he  figured   out  is  what  he  should  do.  For  over  30  years  he  has  traveled  inside  the  prisons  to  teach  traditional   �practices  such  as  the  passing  of  the  eagle  feather  in  the  Talking  Circle,”  smoking  of  the  sacred   Tobacco  Pipe  and  the  Sweat  Lodge    Ceremony.  For  ten  years  he  was  director  of  a  community  center   and  has  lobbied  senators  and  representatives  creating  legislation  and  implementing  policies.  He   saw  his  job  as  “creating  awareness”  among  prison  officials  and  inmates  and  states  that  99  %  of   Native  American  prisoners  suffer  from  alcoholism  or  substance  abuse.  Therefore  traditional  healing   is  not  only  their  culture  but  also  has  healing  powers.  It  is  the  same  as  any  other  religion  form  other   countries.  Personally,  he  feels  that  Native  Americans  in  prison  are  starving  to  learn  their  true   history  and  traditions  that  have  been  denied  them  in  the  public  schools  of  the  reservations.  There   he  said,  “they  teach  only  about  Dick  and  Jane  and  Christopher  Columbus  discovering  our  land.”  He   has  worked  on  law  suits  to  protect  Native  American  First  Amendment  rights.   On  a  trip  to  Denver,  Colorado  he  met  the  leaders  of  the  American  Indian  Movement  (A.I.M.),  which   were  part  of  the  Rainbow  Coalition  of  the  Black  Panthers,  Young  Patriots  and  Young  Lords.  In  1973,   he  and  others  endured  71  days  of  daily  heavy  gunfire  from  both  sides  with  federal  officers  at   Wounded  Knee.    For  over  40  years,  he  has  been  Leonard  Peltier’s  spiritual  leader  and  has  traveled   to  France  to  receive  a  human  rights  award  from  Frantz  Fanon’s  daughter’s  foundation,  on  behalf  of   Leonard  Peltier.  Today  his  daughter  and  grandson  are  at  Standing  Rock  supporting  that  occupation.   He  was  also  a  good  friend  of  Richard  Oakes  who  he  said  was  a  Mohawk  from  the  east  coast,   attending  school  at  San  Francisco  State.  Richard  organized  students  and  members  of  various  tribes   to  take  over  an  abandoned  Alcatraz  Island  on  November  20,  1969.  According  to  treaties  any   abandoned  federal  land  was  to  revert  back  to  Native  Americans.  He  said  that  Richard  Oake’s   daughter  had  been  killed  during  the  occupation.  Cha-­‐Cha  Jimenez  explained  that  it  occurred  on  the   transport  barge  on  Thanksgiving  Day  when  someone  bumped  the  mother  and  the  baby  fell  into  the   ocean.  He  and  another  Young  Lord,  Cano  Miller  and  others  were  special  guests  during  a  large   Thanksgiving  event  on  the  recently  Alcatraz  Take-­‐over.  The  Young  Lords  and  Cha  –  Cha  were  on  a   speaking  tour  in  California  to  raise  funds  for  the  organization.  Several  witnessed  the  drowning  and   several  dived  into  the  ocean  but  could  not  recover  the  body.  Lenny  said  that  Richard  Oakes  left  the   occupation  feeling  this  as  a  bad  omen,  only  to  be  killed  later  by  “a  forest  ranger.”                 �Transcript LENNY FOSTER: My name is Lenny Foster. I was born in Ganado, Arizona, on the Navajo reservation. I’m 68 years old. I’m a grandfather. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, okay, let’s try that. (break in audio) JJ: Start with the same thing. Can you tell me your name, where you were born? LF: Sure. My name is Lenny Foster. I’m a Diné Navajo from Wind Rock, Arizona. I was born in Ganado, Arizona, on the Navajo reservation. I’m 68 years old. And I’m a grandfather. I have three grandsons and a granddaughter. And my work involves being a spiritual leader, a spiritual advisor for Navajo and other Native American inmates in state prisons, federal penitentiaries in the Western United States, primarily in Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah. [00:01:00] And I’ve been doing this work for 35 years. I started conducting sweat lodge ceremonies, pipe ceremonies, Talking Circle in 1981. JJ: Can you tell us what the Talking Circle and those things done for, you know, for an audience that doesn’t understand it? LF: The Talking Circle is a spiritual gathering where we all come together, maybe 30, 40 inmates at a state prison or federal penitentiary, we make a circle around the fireplace, and I open up with a prayer, and we’ll pass the eagle feather around, and everyone has an opportunity to express themselves. And it’s very healing for the inmate. It’s a form of wellness. And these are concepts we utilize in the prisons for Native Americans. The pipe ceremony, we use tobacco and a pipe. We pray and sing, and I pack [00:02:00] the Chanunpa with tobacco, [mountain?] 1 �tobacco, and again, make a prayer, and then I light it, and I pass it around. It goes all the way around. Everybody has an opportunity to smoke it. Indian tobacco is one of the most profound ceremonies for Native Americans in the prison system. That’s something that we utilize to make the connection to the Great Spirit, in tobacco. And the sweat lodge ceremony is an ancient ceremonial practice of cleansing and purification. It’s very medicinal. It’s very healing. And it’s something that we fought for in the prison system since the 1970s [00:03:00] and it’s still practiced today. JJ: What did you fight for it(inaudible)? LF: Religious rights, cultural rights, spiritual rights is part of a First Amendment, freedom of worship and the prison officials, the wardens, the correctional officials, the chaplains, are not aware of that. And they think that just because a person is taken out of society, incarcerated, that he loses his right to pray, to meditate. And for Native Americans, it’s very important. And so, we had to file grievances, and eventually file lawsuits, and had to go into the state and federal courts, [00:04:00] and that’s when I said we had to fight for it. That’s the process of a lawsuit. You challenge the rules and regulations that prohibits freedom of worship in the prison setting. And we won the cases. We won the cases. So, that’s an activity that’s still practiced today. It would be hard for anyone that doesn’t understand or practice Native American spirituality that it’s something that we have to challenge, the policies, the rules, the regulations. So, it results in litigation. And we have attorneys that are well versed in that type of litigation. So, that’s something that we had to file complaints and grievances to allow us to 2 �have the ceremonies. [00:05:00] You know, when you look at the population of the Native American inmates, a majority are traditional, meaning that they practice the old ways of worship, using the fire, the rock, the lava rocks, the fire, and having a spiritual leader like myself come in and teach. In the ordinary setting of this type of practices, religious practices, you have the Jewish, you have the Christians, you have the Islamic. But their ways are different from Native Americans. So, the prison officials understand the use of the Bible, rosary, holy water. And the Jewish, they have their ways. And Islamic, [00:06:00] they also have their ways. It seems that the prison officials understand these ways, but when it comes to Native American practices, it’s a whole different ball game. And ignorance should not be an excuse for denying a person’s rights to pray. So, that’s something that is misunderstood. So, we’ve had to rely on litigation. We’ve had to rely on legislation, taking these concepts, having a state legislature, federal legislature, write a legislative language and introduce it into the state capitol or federal capitol. So, that’s an exercise or process in legislation. Then the third avenue that’s available for us to obtain these rights is just to negotiate. So, you have litigation, you’ve [00:07:00] got legislation, and negotiation is just requesting the prison officials to sit down with us and discuss these practices, and put everything on the table and hopefully convince the warden or the chaplains that this can be done without affecting the security. Because security is always a concern that the officials use that they don’t understand the fire to heat up the rocks. They don’t understand the sweat lodge where we enter an enclosed area that’s built with willow saplings and 3 �covered with blankets and canvas, and we’re stripped down and enter the sweat lodge, sit in a circle [00:08:00] inside, and then bring in the hot lava rocks, and then you bring in water and the sage and cedar and make offering, and use the sage to dip in the bucket of water. So, these practices are, I call it ancient, old, ceremonial practices, which they are, and it’s up to us, the burden is on us as Native Americans to teach these officials. So, that’s a process for the last 30 years, 30 years that we’ve been doing this. And it’s a constant. It’s a constant. And I’ll use an example. United States Penitentiary, Leavenworth, Lewisburg, Atlanta, Allenwood, Tucson, some of the chaplains are new, and they’re very suspicious of our practices, [00:09:00] and they think we’re going to be using contraband. They don’t know our feelings towards tobacco. It’s very sacred. You don’t play with the pipe or tobacco, or use of sage or cedar. And yet they will say these herbs are not approved. And we have to create an awareness that these herbs are necessary, vital for use in the ceremony. Sage, cedar. That grows wild on the country. You don’t buy the stores, or it’s not manufactured. We go off and harvest it. It’s wild. So, these are examples of what we have to engage. The burden is on us as Native Americans, and [00:10:00] spiritual leaders, spiritual advisors, to educate the wardens, educate the chaplains. And it’s a process where denial of our rights initially started out as civil rights, but it progressed in human rights, religious rights. So, we’re at that level now. And they make it so by being ignorant. It’s a racist practice, it’s discrimination. And we’ve had to testify in Congress to create these laws that gives equal protection to our practices. Same as the Christians. They enjoy their ceremonies. They 4 �don’t have to explain why they should use a Bible. Why is it that we have to explain our use of the pipe and tobacco, [00:11:00] the sweat lodge? Yet they’re entitled to their rosaries, their instruments, or items for use in their services. Same way with the Jewish people. They have certain rights that they enjoy. They don’t seem to have to explain everything. Same way, the more recent is the Islamic and the Muslim practices. They had to file complaints to be able to use their rugs, have their caps, and then pray every Friday. So, it made it much easier for them, because there was a certain amount of awareness, a certain amount of understanding towards their practices. But why is it with Native Americans, we’re viewed as undermining the security? [00:12:00] Or that we’re attempting to undermine the security concerns that the prisons have? And for the longest time, we weren’t allowed to use the sweat lodge. We weren’t allowed to use the pipe. We weren’t allowed to have our spiritual leaders come into the facilities and teach. And it was only lawsuits that were brought on by the Native American Rights Fund. Walter Echo-Hawk is a premier Indian rights attorney, and he litigated many of these cases in the late ’70s, early ’80s. I helped him with these practices. And we sat down and wrote legislative language and incorporated that into bills that were introduced. I, myself, introduced bills that would [00:13:00] protect Native American religious practices in the state prison system. And we realized that it has to go to the highest level, which is the federal, the United States Congress. So, we had to write languages that would be acceptable using the sweat lodge. I keep going back to the sweat lodge and the pipe ceremonies because those are the major, or the ceremonies that are 5 �requested by inmates. And the reason I want to share this with this archives, is that these practices are ancient, and it’s basic. When you really look at it, it’s basic. It’s very elementary. And the burden is on us, [00:14:00] the Indian community, to educate non-Indians, because they don’t practice these ways. But for us, it’s necessary for the healing, for the wellness of our people while they’re incarcerated. And unless they’re allowed to participate, there’s no healing or no wellness that occurs. And it’s a very profound statement, or profound way of life for our people. JJ: Now, when you say -- LF: I think it makes us unique. We’re not Christians, we’re not Jewish, we’re not Muslim, but we practice a traditional manner of worship, and that’s -- white America needs to understand that. White America needs to appreciate diversity in their [00:15:00] -- white America needs to appreciate the sincerity, the uniqueness, the wellness and the healing that takes place by utilizing our traditional practices in the prison system. Majority of our Native Americans, perhaps as much as 95, 99 percent are incarcerated because of alcohol and substance abuse, alcohol related crimes. So, we have a duty to reach out to the young Natives, the Native Americans that are -- men and women that are incarcerated to provide an opportunity for a wellness, a spiritual healing, so when they leave, they won’t end up reoffending. They know that they have a [00:16:00] responsibility of going home and taking care of their families, taking care of their children, getting a job, being law-abiding. That’s important, that concept, law-abiding. That means you’re not going to become a burden to the 6 �community, to your family, and terrorize the community, or terrorize your own family. And that happens. That occurs a lot, and the person reoffends because person gets out, his spiritual identity is not intact. They still have a sense of wanting to consume alcohol. They experience a blackout, and act out and terrorize their home. Their responsibilities as a man, as a person, or as a woman, [00:17:00] is not something that they live or practice. Instead, they want to drink. So, it’s up to us as spiritual leaders to talk about these things, these ways and the habits, addictive behavior. Look, you’re not helping your family when you’re terrorizing them, when you’re taking methamphetamines. That’s a real common problem on the reservations. And we feel that the sweat lodge is the key. Pipe ceremony is the key. Visits by spiritual leaders is the key to changing those kind of behaviors. So, actually, when you look at the whole concept, the whole philosophy, it’s very elementary. We are attempting to help our own people using our own traditional beliefs and values. [00:18:00] And if you have prison officials that stop that, or don’t approve of these ways, it makes our job much harder to create that environment of healing, wellness. JJ: What do you think that got them involved into substance abuse? LF: What’s that? JJ: What do you think got them involved into alcohol and [other things?]? LF: Well, my theory about that is the feeling that’s been -- the colonizers, the colonizers make us feel ashamed of who we are. The colonizers brainwash us to discredit our dignity and our pride as Native Americans, which results in a lot of shaming, [00:19:00] a lot of addictive behaviors, lot of anger. And they act out 7 �and they consume alcohol. I’ve seen behaviors among our Native Americans, especially young ones, they end up in prison because they’re very angry, maybe towards their tribe or towards their community, towards their family. And then even their own mothers and fathers, they were upset because they didn’t learn the language, they didn’t learn the culture, they didn’t learn the spiritual practices. And they get incarcerated, and then they request, they say, “I need a medicine man to come and visit me, to talk to me, to pray with me, to doctor me, using prayers and songs.” And sometimes that occurs. Other times, the warden and the chaplain will say, “No, we can’t allow that.” [00:20:00] The concept of incarceration is to lock up a person, throw the key away. And that’s their method or form of not only punishment, but thinking that they’re going to change a person. It doesn’t change them. It just makes them more angry. And I find that among young Native Americans who don’t have an opportunity to engage in their ceremonial practices. So, it’s a difficult issue in today’s time. But that’s the work that I do, and that’s the work that I do. I got started in that 1980, ’81. So, that’s been a long time. And I engage and have experiences in [00:21:00] litigation. Like I said, I’ve worked with attorneys from the Native American Rights Fund, I’ve had introduction of legislation through the New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, and Utah state legislatures. I would approach a Native American senator, a Native American House of Representative, and sit down with the officials and say that, “We need to introduce, you need to help us introduce a bill that will address that, and put it into the state statutes,” and then the senator or the House of Representatives will say, “Okay, we can do that. But you need to explain again. 8 �We have to really go in depth about [00:22:00] what is a sweat lodge? What’s the purpose of a sweat lodge? What’s a pipe? What’s the purpose of using the pipe?” And we have to educate our own officials. So, then, once we’re able to do that, to create an awareness, then then the senator will -- Senator John Pinto has been a very good ally of us in New Mexico. Senator Jackson, Representative Peaches and Representative Albert Hill. People like that, who are Native American legislatures at the state level. Senator Inouye from Hawaii, Senator Wellstone from Minnesota. Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell from Colorado. These are people that we worked with to introduce legislation. So, once that [00:23:00] passes the committee, the various committees, gets to the governor’s desk, they will sign it, and it becomes state law. Or if it gets to the federal legislation, then it has to come before the committees, the Senate Indian Affairs Committees is one that hears these bills. And if they agree, and they vote on it, and it’s approved, then it would be signed into federal law. So, it’s a lengthy process. It involves hearings, it involves lobbying, it involves advocating for these ways at different levels of government. JJ: How did you get involved in doing those litigations? LF: Well, like I said, in 1981, [00:24:00] I was a graduate student at Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. And I was asked to meet with the Native American inmates at the state prison there in Florence, Arizona. And I sat down with them. There was maybe 10 Native American inmates of different tribes, and they basically asked for use of a sweat lodge on the grounds. And they were aware of it, but I knew that I could be a teacher, a mentor, because I had more extensive 9 �knowledge about the use of the sweat lodge and the pipe ceremony. So, it became my responsibility to educate, inform, and teach. As they would say, preach and teach. And so, I took it upon myself to do that, and I approached a representative [00:25:00] from the state legislature, and I approached them, and we sat down, and they wrote down the legislative language. So, that’s how I got involved, it dates all the way back to 1981. And the same experiences is very similar, if I did it, or maybe another person did it, it doesn’t really matter, because the process and protocol is the same. In order to introduce legislation, you need to sit down and write it in a legislative language, and put down on paper, then it’s introduced by the representative, whether he’s a senator or representative, introduce it to committees, and they’ll review it, and if it’s acceptable, then they give it a number and there’d be a hearing. I learned all this. I learned all this. [00:26:00] And so, somebody listening right now that doesn’t understand it, you will have to do some research just exactly what the protocol, the process in each state, whether it’s Illinois, Michigan, Arizona, New Mexico, there’s a process. There’s a protocol of how a bill is introduced and it’s assigned a number, and it goes before various committees, and then the committees will hear, and it’s up to us as the sponsor, to invite some witnesses. And ex-offenders are some of the best witnesses, because they themselves know what problems they had while they were incarcerated to ask to see a spiritual leader. Maybe they were turned down and told, “No, you need to see a priest. You need to see a preacher.” That doesn’t work. [00:27:00] If a Native American has traditional beliefs and 10 �traditional values, and he wants a medicine man, a spiritual advisor, to come in and talk to him and pray with him. And that’s what I do. JJ: You never mentioned that. LF: Well, I’m a spiritual leader a spiritual advisor. I’m a pipe carrier, Sundancer. So, that’s what I do. JJ: Can you explain that, and how did you become that? LF: Well, it’s a special gift from the Creator. In some ways, you’re born with that gift. In other ways, you have to fast for it, go up on the hill, and go on a vision quest. And that gift is bestowed upon you by the Great Spirit. So, you take that and you’re able to heal, create some healing with the individual who asks for help. I’m a member of the Native American Church. [00:28:00] I’ve sun danced for 26 years, so I’ve developed my gift. And that’s what I’ve been doing for the last 35 years. It’s a real intensive experience of learning these ways. So, that’s what I wanted to share. That’s part of the work I do as a Program Supervisor for the Corrections Project, that I work with the Navajo Nation Behavioral Health. And it’s my duty and responsibility to reach out to Native Americans that are incarcerated, Navajo and other tribes. JJ: Which states do you work in? LF: I work in Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Texas, Oklahoma, California. Then I also visit federal prisons, and that would be [00:29:00] the USP Tucson, the USP Leavenworth, FCI Phoenix, FCI Safford, FCI La Tuna, Colorado, Florence, Colorado, the ADX and the USP, Leavenworth, Allenwood, Lewisburg, Atlanta, Georgia, wherever Native Americans are incarcerated, they will ask for 11 �me to come and visit. Sometimes the chaplain will make that request, and then I gotta respond. That’s what I do. That’s my work. I get paid by the Navajo Nation to do that. JJ: You do get paid by the Navajo Nation? LF: Navajo Nation. I developed that program. So, we have a program that’s funded by the Navajo Nation to take care of its people in the prison setting. So, that’s what I’ve been doing for the last 35 years. [00:30:00] And it’s a good experience for me, because I feel I’m giving of myself, teaching, instructing, and creating an awareness. But I’m retiring. I’m retiring in December of this year. So, I’ll be stepping aside and letting someone else take over, and I’m gonna just relax. JJ: You grew up in the reservation? LF: Oh, yeah. JJ: So, can you describe growing up? LF: Well, I grew up in a sheep camp where I was raised by my grandmother, grandfather -- JJ: [Can you mention their names?]? LF: -- and my parents were traditional Navajo speaking. JJ: Can you mention their names? LF: My grandfather, his name was [Jim Blacko Begay?], [00:31:00] and my grandmother is [Ursula Begay?] My paternal grandparents were Samuel Foster and Ann Foster. They were all traditional Navajos who lived, raised -- were sheep herders. They lived off the land, planted corn, potatoes, and lived that way of life. They had horses and some cattle and lived basically on the land. No 12 �running water inside, no heating, and everything. You’ve got to go out and chop wood to bring it. That’s what I used to do to help them. And me and my sister. And then we’d go out and herd sheep. So, that was a lifestyle. That way of life is disappearing. Nowadays, [00:32:00] you have use of pickup, you know, going to the stores. Back then, there wasn’t -- when I was growing up, there wasn’t -they had the trading post, but that was quite a ways of distance. And they had a horse-drawn wagon. JJ: A trading post is like a store? LF: Yeah, it’s a store that sold pretty much everything. JJ: You mean food and (inaudible)? LF: Yeah, I’d say it was a different way of life. But today, things have changed. We’re in the 21st century, so you know, you have pickups that’s replaced a horse. It’s replaced a horse-drawn wagon. Pickups and cars. And you even have cell phones now. You have access to computers now. So, things have changed. And through that change [00:33:00] has resulted in bad habits in our diet and health. We have obesity, alcoholism, diabetes. And that lifestyle has changed our habits and the way we live. It’s not good because we’re turning towards the white man’s way of colonization, and it’s very disturbing. The younger generation has a problem with speaking the language. And I’m sure it’s the same in the Spanish. I’ve run into people who have a hard time speaking fluently in their native languages, whether it’s Spanish or whatever language that they were to speak. It’s a big problem with Native Americans. [00:34:00] It’s much easier to speak in English than speak our Native language. So, there’s a -- 13 �JJ: Do you have schools and things -- LF: Yeah, we’ve got the public schools. See, that’s part of the problem. The schools don’t teach the language, they don’t teach the culture, they don’t teach the history. Everything is colonized history. Everything is Columbus discovered America, and Dick and Jane as the primary characters of what the middle class world is all about. That doesn’t apply to us. That’s a foreign concept. But that’s destroying our intelligence. It’s destroying our dignity. It’s destroying our language and our culture. And [00:35:00] we need to change those ways. I grew up in the schools there in Fort Defiance, and we didn’t learn the language. We had to learn that at home. But some places, families don’t teach the Navajo language and Navajo culture at home. They rely on the school to do it, and the school doesn’t do that. So, a person grows up not speaking his language, not knowing his culture. That’s a big problem. So, I was lucky that I was raised by my grandparents. They lived a traditional way of life. They spoke Navajo in the home. And my grandparents were spiritual people. So, they taught my sister and I some of the beliefs, the [00:36:00] values that today I carry with me. As I got older, I progressed through the schools. See, my father was a Navajo Code Talker, USMC Marine during World War II, and he saw the world out there. And he went out there, and he saw the value of education. So, when he was discharged after the war, when he came home to the reservation and started having kids, my mother, they both agreed that we should be educated. So, my sister, myself, and my three brothers, we all went to school, we learned the white man’s education, and we finished high school, went to college, finished that, and 14 �[00:37:00] came home, got jobs, became responsible. I, myself, never went to prison. I work in the prison system as a spiritual counselor, but I never went to prison, so I was able to utilize my experience and pass through the NCIC background check, which is very extensive. Because they’ll do the National Crime Information Center background check, if you have any arrests, that automatically disqualifies you from working as a counselor in the system. Because most Native Americans have some form of an arrest record, so that prohibits a person from doing -JJ: How did you stay away from it? LF: Well, I got involved with school. I got involved with sports. [00:38:00] I knew that -- well, my parents, they didn’t use alcohol. My grandparents didn’t use alcohol. So, they provided me with good role models. I had friends in school, high school especially, that drank and smoked. I didn’t do that. So, I basically stayed away from that. And then when I got into college, same thing. I played some basketball and baseball, stayed active with sports. I stuck with my school, made my grades, stayed away from alcohol and drugs. So, I didn’t commit any crimes. And so, I was lucky in that way. And all of my brothers and sisters, we didn’t get into it. [00:39:00] Because we’re isolated, also. I mean, if we lived in a city, maybe it would have been different, but we lived way out on the reservation, so we don’t have that opportunity to do these things. You have to go to the border towns, like to Gallup, New Mexico, to Flagstaff, Arizona, and you get caught up in the alcohol, drugs, and next thing you know, you’re arrested, or you’re acting out, or maybe you’re being angry about not being able to experience the culture or 15 �the language. That’s important, because once you mess a man’s mind, you’re making him ashamed of who he is as an Indian, develops a real sense of shame and anger. [00:40:00] And if he drinks, all that act out, he acts out his anger, and he’d end up fighting, doing things that’s not appropriate behavior. Burglaries, assault, sexual assault, assault with a deadly weapon, drinking results in DWI. You know, all these different crimes that exist because a person is drinking to escape his shame. And it’s a big problem. I’ll tell you, it’s a big problem. Alcohol is not good for our people. Even smoking tobacco. JJ: You were a counselor [00:41:00] but what other types of jobs did you have through your life? LF: Well, I went to school for sociology. I got a degree in sociology. So, when I got out of college, I went to work with social work, and working with families and juveniles. That’s hard work, because you’re working with people’s behavior. And we have a lot of problems. We’ve got a lot of problems. Alcoholism is a major problem. Drugs. So, we’ve got to deal with those. And then I decided that that wasn’t something I wanted to do, so I applied for a position as a community center director, and I enjoyed that more because I’m dealing with a community where I establish programs for the youth, [00:42:00] athletic programs, men and women, juvenile basketball. We had a city league, arts and crafts, developing the crafts of our Native people, swimming, taught swimming. Youth programs, an emphasis away from the alcohol, glue sniffing, spray paint. So, that work I did for maybe 10 years. I was a director of a community center and dealt with the whole community. And it was a big gymnasium. I allowed them to use the 16 �showers, and kept it open for activity after school, during the evenings, on the weekends. And I just didn’t close the community center. I kept it open for the community. [00:43:00] So, I did that for 10 years. Then I eventually moved on. I went back to school. And that’s where I became involved in the prison work, and that was very satisfactory to me, because I was able to go into the prisons and use my experience, what I learned from my grandparents, speaking the language, teaching the prayers, teaching the songs. And the inmates, they took to that really well, because they were hungry for knowledge. They were hungry for information. I essentially became a teacher, a spiritual leader. I’ve done that for 35 years. But in the process, I’ve done, like I said, litigation, to create new laws, legislation, [00:44:00] negotiations. Every week I run ceremonies. JJ: New laws against social injustice? LF: Yeah, to change the white man’s law. See, white man’s laws, they prohibit traditional beliefs and values. They want all of us to cut our hair. They want us to forget our language. They want us to pick up the Bible. They want us to be Christians. But we’re not cut out to be facsimile of a white man. We do that, then we have a real, serious identity crisis. So, the legislation is to establish our beliefs, our practices, and then the legislation -- or see, the litigation is to establish the laws, to put it into the law books. And [00:45:00] then, the legislations to establish that, become part of the overall religious services or the practices. And then the negotiation is to talk about it, put it on the table, sit at the table, let’s put everything on here without resorting to expensive lawsuits, or even legislation. It’s just, let’s just develop a policy where it’s mutual agreement. So, 17 �we have to we have to be assertive. We have to be aggressive. And we have to be confident that what we’re talking about, we believe in. It’s just not exercise. And you’ve got to know what you’re talking about. You know, dealing with the white man can be difficult because he has a different mindset. And so, that’s been my experience. [00:46:00] And I’ve taken this experience in these areas, and I became Leonard Peltier’s a spiritual leader. I’ve known him since 1970. Him and I were friends in Denver, Colorado. And then he got into trouble with the law defending his people and his land up in South Dakota, where two FBI agents were shot, and some of the people who were present that day turned witness against him and said he was the shooter, which really he wasn’t. These young Natives were threatened by the FBI, and they turned witness, federal witness. The FBI [00:47:00] fabricated the evidence, they fabricated witnesses. They didn’t tell the truth. The shell casing didn’t match the firing pin in the rifle that supposedly was used. They fabricated that. The affidavits were fabricated. They extradited him from Canada based on false affidavits, false witness. So, everything that the government utilized in its case was all lies. And he’s been in prison for 41 years on constitutional violations that were committed, fraud. And when tests were finally done, the government hid the results of those tests from the jury and from the judge. We want to retrial for him, but the judges, [00:48:00] the court said no. They locked him into the case. So, everything was based on a lie. And we can prove it. The shell casings were tested by experts, FBI experts, and they came to the conclusion the rifle that was supposedly used, the AR-15, which is similar to M-16, the shell casing didn’t match the firing pin. So, it 18 �couldn’t have been -- that rifle wasn’t used in this shooting. Yet, they said they matched. And they testified. In court. The FBI experts testified in court and said that it was a match. It wasn’t. Later, we -- the lawyers, Bruce Ellison, dug up the information and realized that the feds had lied on that. They didn’t match. And then, when they brought them up, put them [00:49:00] on the stand, they lied. They were caught in a lie, but the judge just overruled it, and basically they had to lock somebody into that case. So, Leonard Peltier was found guilty. And it’s been 41 years now. I’ve been visiting him for 31 years. JJ: Can you explain -- LF: For a while there, no one was allowed to see him. No one was allowed to see when he was at Marion. USP Marion, no one could go to see him. JJ: Can you describe what type of person Leonard Peltier is? LF: Oh, Leonard’s very friendly. He’s very outgoing. He’s genuine friendly. Kind. He’s a mentor. He’s an excellent painter. He’s a mentor to the other inmates. He doesn’t drink. He doesn’t smoke. [00:50:00] But he’s suffering some bad health. He’s got diabetes, he’s got bad high blood pressure, he’s losing his eyesight. He’s not in good health. We need to get him out. But he’s a good person. He’s full of humor. He’s a very genuine, solid person. I believe that years of advocacy and lobbying for his freedom is finally going to result in executive clemency being approved. I feel that. I think that will happen. I think President Obama will free him. JJ: And you were in a committee that’s trying to -- you’re working on that case. 19 �LF: Yeah. I’ve [00:51:00] testified on his behalf in Congress. I highlighted his case when I went to the United Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, I met with Evo Morales in Bolivia last fall to advocate his case to Evo Morales in the Bolivian embassy, and he said he was going to write a letter to Obama. I’m sure he has. I went to Paris, France, met with the daughter of Frantz Fanon. You know, he’s a well-known -- he was a very well-known human rights activist and a writer, author, Franz Fanon’s daughter has a foundation. And they named Leonard a recipient of that Human Rights Award. And I went to Paris, France to accept the award for [00:52:00] him, or on his behalf, which was very significant. So, he’s got supporters all over the world. He’s had Nelson Mandela, the Dalai Lama, the Bishop Tutu from Cape Town, South Africa, people like that, [numerous of?] Congress. He’s got a lot of support. But it’s been hard. The different -President Reagan, Carter, Bush, W. Bush, they just won’t deal with it. But Clinton came close. But I think he backed out. And I think President Obama will sign, will sign the executive clemency. We’ve got a [00:53:00] resolution of support from the Navajo Nation, resolution of support from the National Congress of American Indians, various other organizations that support Leonard Peltier’s release on executive clemency. So, it’s going to become a reality. I feel that that’s something that’s going to happen. We just continue to pray and continue to lobby and advocate for his freedom. So, this is what I want to say at this time. It’s been my work for the last 35 years. It’s been very exhausting. I feel that I put in my time and did that [00:54:00] as part of my work for the Navajo Nation. I’ve become very aware of the criminal justice system, the prison system, based on 20 �my work, and hopefully I’ll be retiring the end of this year. And if you want to get a hold of me, just call me at 928-729-4475, in Window Rock, Arizona, and whatever I can do to help your research or what you’re doing. And thank you for listening. JJ: Can you describe a little bit about -- you were talking about (inaudible) LF: In 1973, I was a very active member of the [00:55:00] Denver, Colorado American Indian Movement. And as part of the American Indian Movement, I traveled with Denver AIM up to South Dakota to lend support to their quest for justice. The tribal chairman at the time was very corrupt, misusing tribal funds and utilizing an auxiliary police force to suppress its people. And it resulted in a very intense struggle. And it became an armed struggle. For 71 days, there was an occupation, a siege at Wounded Knee. I participated in that. I survived 11 firefights. I was right in the front lines. I was in a Little Bighorn bunker with some young brothers. At the time, I was 25 years old, and I was in the bunker with John Perot, Fuzzy Miller, Stan [00:56:00] Letender, John Carlson, Percy Casper. These were some of the people. David Wilson. These are some of the young men. We’re almost all the same age. And we’re in a Little Big Horn bunker. And we engaged in some pretty intense gun firefights. No one was hit. JJ: This is public information. It’s all public information? LF: Yeah, it’s out there. But you know, it was a matter of self-defense. They surrounded us. They wanted us to give up, surrender. And that didn’t happen. For 71 [00:57:00] days, we were engaged in a real intense self-defense. So, that experience for Indian people across this country made a realization that our 21 �ancestors did the same thing. It just became common knowledge that we have this DNA as Indian people that we will defend our people, and we will defend our way of life and defend the land. It’s still happening today. JJ: You call it DNA of Indian people. LF: Yeah, we have that in our DNA. We resort to defending Mother Earth, and defending the water, defending the resources, defending our people, future generations. And that’s happening today up in Cannon Ball, North Dakota, [00:58:00] where the Standing Rock Sioux people are standing up for their right to defend water, water rights. It’s very important. Indian’s use of water in ceremonial practices. It’s life. And we see that the Dakota Access Pipeline is making plans to dig up a right of way, lay down pipes all the way from Canada, and ship oil. But we know that’s not safe. And what will happen if they have a -because a lot of these companies, they do shoddy construction. They slap things together and they leave. They get paid and they leave. What happens to the Indian people that live on the land [00:59:00] who are going to experience an oil spill? And that will go into the ground, into the water table. The Missouri River is where those pipes -- so the Standing Rock Sioux people are making a stand with support from other Indian people throughout Western Hemisphere. Right now, I understand there’s 6,000. 7,000 Indian people there camped, helping. And that whole experience is that the white corporations, the companies, are totally disregarding the free, prior informed consent, consultation with the Indian tribes, the Indian nations, as to why they want to build right through there instead of saying, “We’re just going to use this right away and 22 �build, tear up the land and tear up the cultural sites, the sacred sites.” [01:00:00] Cemeteries. They’re even tearing up the land where they’re uncovering graves. That’s stupid. That’s crazy. So, we’re asking that people, concerned people, make a stand right alongside our Standing Rock Sioux people. JJ: Have you been able to go? LF: I haven’t been up there, no. JJ: Do you know of some people that have gone there? LF: Oh, yeah. My daughter is up there, and so is my grandson, and my brother and his wife are traveling there. JJ: I heard there’s five or 6,000 people. LF: Yeah, there’s a lot of people there. And I went to a meeting in Phoenix, Arizona last week with the National Congress of American Indians. And the tribal chairman, the leader, was a Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, Dave Archambault, came and made a presentation and requested help from other tribes. [01:01:00] And he has it. It’s an issue that needs to be supported, and I think it’s one of the most profound issues, in not only Indian country today, but white America. White people can’t drink oil. They don’t care about future generations. That’s not in their DNA to be concerned for human rights or treaty rights, or concerned for the environment. Because they have the might, and they’ve got the money. They want to just [bogart?] their way through all of this in the process. It’s only a matter of time before there’ll be an oil spill. They did that in Alaska. And they didn’t hold that company liable for what they did, the Valdez. [01:02:00] It ran the ground and erupted that ship, and all the oil got all over the place. It could 23 �happen in North Dakota. See, that pipeline started in Canada, and then it goes -it went into North Dakota, and then they have plans to go continue, Iowa and South Dakota. But they’ll be met with resistance from other tribes that live in Iowa and South Dakota. So, this issue isn’t over by many means. It’s going to be a burden on the government. It’s going to be a thorn in the side of the white America. There’s not only legal obligations, but [01:03:00] moral obligations, how they’re going to deal with it, how they’re going to stop it. JJ: And it’s getting a lot of support. I know people from Chicago, from SDS, (inaudible). LF: Yeah, it’s something that involves all people. I know Wounded Knee, that’s how Wounded Knee happened. We had 71 days of armed -- it was finally because the government brought in the FBI and the federal marshals, and they’re trained to use deadly force. So, that was what happened for 71 days, engaging in firefights. It was a result was some people died as a result of firefights, put our arms down, surrender, went to court. Many of our people’s cases were dismissed as [01:04:00] self-defense. And as a result from all of that, Leonard Peltier was targeted. And now he’s been in prison for 41 years. He’s 72 years old. We need to get him out of prison. So, I just want to say that much at this time. I’m gonna -- JJ: Could you just talk a little bit about Richard Oaks? LF: Oh, Richard Oaks. He was one of the leaders from New York. He was a Mohawk. He married an Indian woman from Northern California, and he was one of the student leaders at San Francisco State College. As a result of his 24 �leadership, he had the [01:05:00] charisma to lead, and they decided to occupy Alcatraz Island because, based on the 1868 treaty, the Fort Laramie treaty, any federal lands were vacated or was termed surplus, that it would revert back to the Indian people. So, the students from San Francisco State College and from UCLA and other schools decided to occupy Alcatraz Island as a learning center, a cultural center for education, museum, education center for all tribes. And it went on for 18 months, [01:06:00] negotiations between Nixon’s administration and the Indians, and it resulted -- after 18 months, it began in November 1969, and it resulted ending in June 17, 1971, where the federal marshals came on the land and all remaining young Natives were arrested. Richard Oaks had left because his daughter fell. There were stairs, and she eventually died. And it was a bad omen. He took it as a bad omen and decided to move his family. They went back to Pit River, Northern California. And then when he was there, he had a confrontation with a park ranger. JJ: (inaudible) went there (inaudible) that’s when it ended. LF: Yeah, [01:07:00] a lot of the people went to Pit River. JJ: Who went to Alcatraz. LF: Yeah, and a park ranger shot and killed Richard Oaks. So, that’s how that happened. It was very sad, because he was a good leader. He was a very promising leader for the Indian community. He was young. He was young. I knew him. When I first came to Alcatraz from Fort Collins, Colorado, I met [Pat Janea?], Joe Bill, Al Miller, Richard Oaks, because I knew Pat Janea from my childhood on the Navajo reservation, they all accepted me, and Pat told them 25 �that I was an old friend from grade school from the Navajo reservation. So, that’s how I became acquainted with Richard Oaks, Al Miller, [01:08:00] and Joe Bill. They were good friends. We were all young. We were all young. At that time, I was 21 years old. And that was 1969, 1970. A long time ago. And that was a -I guess I would say it was a moment in history that proved to be defining moment for the movement. It opened up the doors for future movement activities. It opened our eyes as Indian people. We have treaty rights; we have human rights. It went beyond civil rights. That experience there allowed us to exercise our treaty rights. We’re still basing that today, we’ve taken our issues into the international community, [01:09:00] at the United Nations, Geneva, Switzerland. I myself have been to Geneva, Switzerland a number of times, testifying before the Human Rights Council, the Committee for the Elimination of Racism, CERT, and just other various interventions in the area of treaty rights and environmental rights, human rights. But the process at the United Nations very slow. You’ve got to be patient. You express or do an intervention and testify, it might be a year or two before any kind of result will happen. So, that’s some of my experience. [01:10:00] And I want to thank you for -JJ: Do you have any final thoughts? LF: Well, I think the younger generation needs to be ready to get involved more so. Educate yourself. Participate in the ceremonies. To those that are incarcerated, I would say, to learn all about your spiritual values, your spiritual identity, so you can leave and be comfortable where you don’t need to resort to alcohol, and you can help your family and not be a burden to your community and take care of 26 �your kids. That would be my advice to those that are incarcerated. And to those young students, to learn all you can. [01:11:00] Do some research. Research the treaties. See what the treaty actually says. A lot of times we don’t know what was written in those treaties until you really research and see what are some of the finer items, or points of further discussion. An example, they’re having to deal with health, health issues. The treaty guaranteed health concerns would be addressed. Education. So, when you talk about education, you’re talking about money for scholarships, housing, healthcare. These things. And [01:12:00] even the courts, the criminal justice system, the treaties guaranteed that anyone breaking the law, or any white men that came on to the reservation breaking the law would be subject to punishment by the courts. So, they have to be carried out. So, researching the items and the specifics of treaties, you just have to research and look at, what does the treaty say? What exactly did it guarantee us? Now there’s a fight for water. There’s a fight for uranium, coal, gas, and oil, and those rights that we have, and the white man is trying to take that. So, it’s not right. These treaties are the supreme law of the [01:13:00] land. The international court recognizes it. And other countries throughout the world, they press upon the United States when they’re being an advocate of human rights, they’re reminded by other countries, “You’re violating the First Nations’ rights.” In other words, honor those treaties you signed with the Indian people. The United States doesn’t like to hear that, that they’re at fault. So, that’s about how much I’m going to say. JJ: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. 27 �LF: Thank you. It’s been a pleasure. END OF VIDEO FILE 28 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5108cf98a873e27b682668c6f6cb418.mp4 934ac87fd0e52c88c4c04bc990920e33 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Lenny Foster vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Historia oral de Lenny Foster, entrevistado por José 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 23/10/2016 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Foster_Lenny Title A name given to the resource Lenny Foster video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Foster, Lenny Description An account of the resource Oral history of Lenny Foster, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez on 10/23/2016 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/368516a9ec50d07c86667225c7efbc22.pdf a8f472dfae7898993e100cdce240aefb PDF Text Text Young   L ords   In  Lincoln  Park   Interviewee:  Lawrence  Reyes   Interviewers:  Jose  Jimenez   Location:  Grand  Valley  State  University  Special  Collections   Date:  10/4/2016   Runtime:  00:45:41         Biography  and  Description   Oral  history  of  Lawrence  Reyes,  interviewed  by  Jose  “Cha-­‐Cha”  Jimenez  on  October  04,  2016  about  the   Young  Lords  in  Lincoln  Park.   Lawrence  was  born  on  July  7,  1958    at  St.  Vincent  Hospital  in  New  York  City’s  Village  area.  The   family  soon  moved  to  El  Barrio  around  122nd  and  Amsterdam  which  was  primarily  Puerto  Rican.   He  is  one  of  12  siblings  including  his  U.S.  veteran  brother,  Junior  who  was  also  a  member  of  the   Young  Lords.  His  father  was  a  store  manager  in  downtown  Manhattan  and  his  mother  worked  as  a   janitor.  The  environment  of  El  Barrio  was  gang  and  drug  infested  and  Lawrence  dropped  out  of  9th   grade  at  John  Jay  Dewey  High  School  and  eventually  became  addicted  to  hard  drugs  going  in  and   out  of  prison,  including  a  robbery.  He  states  that  it  was  a  hopeless  case  for  him  until  his   involvement  with  the  Young  Lords.  Today  he  has  been  “clean”  34  years  and  has  worked  for  county   and  state  governments,  as  a  substance  abuse  counselor.   �Lawrence  states  that  his  father  was  a  “Puerto  Rican  Republican.”  His  mother  was  the  complete   opposite  and  she  taught  the  children  Puerto  Rican  history  and  about  Don  Pedro  Albizu  Campos  and   the  Nacionalistas.  His  sister  Hilda  Morales  later,  was  a  part  of  the  Young  Lords  central  committee  in   New  York.  The  last  action  he  remembers  was  when  the  city  was  leading  the  New  York  Puerto  Rican   parade  and  the  people  and  Young  Lords  reacted  and  fought  the  police.  He  is  joined  in  the  oral   history  with  co-­‐activists  Jorge  Luis  Rivera  and  Adam  Rice  who  are  proactive  with  him  in  Los   Angeles.   �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: If you could give me your name and where you were born. LAWRENCE REYES: JJ: Lawrence Reyes. New York City, New York. If you could give us your name, and where you were born, and maybe your age and (inaudible). LR: Sure. So my name Lawrence Reyes, I was born in New York City, New York. Coming from a pretty good family, you know, 12; 10 sisters and a brother. JJ: What are some of their names? LR: Oh, okay, so my sister’s name is Martha, Doreen, Eva, Lillian, the twins: Eunice and Euphacine, Gilda, and Doreen. And my brother’s name is Juan, Jr. who [00:01:00] was also a Young Lord and a Vietnam veteran. JJ: You were in New York, what part of New York? LR: I was in New York City, New York, in Manhattan in El Barrio. JJ: Were you born there? LR: No, I was born in St. Vincent’s Hospital in Village in New York, and we lived there for a while, then we moved uptown to El Barrio, and that’s where I grew up. JJ: El Barrio, (inaudible). LR: Yeah, El Barrio was 122nd Street and Amsterdam which was a predominantly Puerto Rican neighborhood at the time, and my mom was a janitor at Fulton County Hospital which is Brooklyn County. And my father was a store manager [00:02:00] in downtown Manhattan off of Wall Street by the World Trade Center. JJ: Where did you go to school? 1 �LR: I went to school at John Jay Dewey High School, and I subsequently dropped out of the ninth grade. My first year of school, I dropped out because it was a hopeless situation. We didn’t have too many resources, and we were impoverished, and we lived in a very impoverished neighborhood. And the Young Lords addressed that impoverishment with the cleaning up the trash program that -- in Harlem, in Spanish Harlem. And so that was my first [00:03:00] introduction to the Young Lords. I got into drugs and alcohol at the time. I was arrested, placed in juvenile hall. I was a hopeless case. I came out, committed a robbery, ended up in state prison in New York. And from there, I led a life of crime, and drug addiction, and alcoholism. JJ: (inaudible). LR: Yeah. Heroin, cocaine, speed. JJ: (inaudible). LR: Yeah, heroin was real big, yeah. LR: So you spent some time in jail and then -- LR: Yeah, I spent some time in jail, and the last stretch that I did was when I reawoken politically. And I went to school, got a GED, and then went to college, got a degree in human behavior because I wanted to work with people. And then from there, [00:04:00] I came out, and I started working for county working with youth, at the time working with the youth employment program. And what we would do is we would get jobs out to youth who were at risk and also coming from an impoverished urban setting. JJ: (inaudible). And so can you describe would (inaudible)? 2 �LR: A regular day with the Young Lords was always seeking to organize the community, working with the community especially when there was a lot of trash because the city sanitation department was not coming around and picking up the trash. So we asked the people what they wanted, and they said, “We want the garbage gone.” So that’s when [00:05:00] we started cleaning garbage -literally bags and bags of garbage, and then we threw them in the street and we made the sanitation department come and get it. JJ: (inaudible). LR: Yes, sir. JJ: (inaudible). LR: Yeah, we put it in the front because it was a big issue and so was a lot of the -you know, there was no nutrition program. The Black Panther nutrition program came into play for a lot of us. I was a product of the Black Panther Precious Program where they fed children and gave groceries out to families. And then from there, the Palante newspaper was when I started -- selling the Palante newspaper [00:06:00] around all over the place. There was always some kind of protest or some kind of action. I was outside when they took over -- when the Young Lords took over Lincoln Hospital. And I was outside, the Young Lords had occupied it, I was outside selling papers, and my sisters and my brothers were inside the hospital. So that was my first sense of pride, you know, that -- JJ: (inaudible). LR: I was cadre. JJ: (inaudible). 3 �LR: Okay, yeah, I felt it was important work. I felt that I had a sense of purpose other than what I was exposed to in my living environment. There was a sense of purpose that you know what? We’re gonna make a difference. [00:07:00] We were gonna help the people. So after that, we ran into Panama, Felipe Luciano, Yoruba, Iris, and they were a very powerful cadre as well. My sister was in the central committee once they opened it up to women because -- JJ: What was her name? LR: Gilda Morales. It was just happening, man, all over the place. It was just such a sense of pride that we shouldn’t be ashamed of our hair, our heritage, the way people looked us down ’cause we were colonized people. Just because we were colonized people doesn’t mean [00:08:00] that we were less human than anybody else. And once we got in touch and became consciousness about the colonization that was going on amongst our own people -- you know, there was an argument about pelo malo, pelo bueno, which states that bad hair, good hair - you know, good hair was straight hair, bad hair was the kind of hair Puerto Ricans have -- a lot of Puerto Ricans have, like curly hair. And our African heritage would show because we were a mixture of three races: Spanish, English, and Indian. So the Young Lords gave us pride. And, also the Young Lords were one of the reasons I quit school, too. I was gonna quit school [00:09:00] anyway ’cause I was already into drugs. And then by 1973, it seemed like after the melee or the riot against the police at the Puerto Rican Day parade - JJ: (inaudible). 4 �LR: Well, the police were engaged in a lot of police brutality, a lot of racism within the police. And they came and wanted -- and led the Puerto Rican Day parade. And we made a statement at the time that we weren’t gonna allow pigs to lead our parade. So we engaged in resistance, and we engaged in what was described as a riot by the Young Lords. JJ: It turned into a riot. LR: It turned into a riot. [00:10:00] And so as we scampered away from the pigs, we went to Columbus Circle and drenched a statue with red paint. At the time, that was big news and we were blamed for it. And I’m not saying that we’re taking the credit for doing that ’cause that was -- it was a political act when we did it, a form of protest. JJ: So, now, was your family political? LR: My family was very political. JJ: Your parents were political? LR: Yeah, my mom -- JJ: (inaudible). LR: Sure. My mother’s name is Hilda Hernandez. She was born in Orocovis, Puerto Rico. She was born in Orocovis -- want to go by the pool? [00:11:00] Hilda Hernandez, born in Orocovis, Puerto Rico which was just way up in the mountains. JJ: (inaudible). LR: Orocovis, yeah. Orocovis, Puerto Rico which is named after a chief, a Taino chief. So she was born up there, and her family were nationalists. And my father 5 �was born in Ponce, his name is Juan Hernandez, and he was ashamed of being Puerto Rican where my mother wasn’t. JJ: (inaudible). RL: Well, he thought that Puerto Ricans shouldn’t be too [00:12:00] revolutionary. And Ponce at the time was very pro-statehood at the time, and he grew up in a family that worked in Bacardi Rum in Ponce, and Bacardi Rum is owned by a Cuban oligarch. Yeah, (inaudible) and Bacardi were Cuban oligarchs, and so they instilled in their workers a sense of U.S. colonialism, you know, “Be American, be grateful for the American system. You got jobs.” So he felt ashamed. My father was a Puerto Rican Republican. (laughs) My father was a Puerto Rican Republican, my mom was the [00:13:00] [stoic?]. She was like the rock, she was the one that taught us about Albizu, she was the one told us stories about Puerto Rico, she was the one that was very proud of being Puerto Rican because she knew that the political system was a sham in Puerto Rico. She didn’t like Don Luis Muñoz Marin who was a colonizer, sold out to the U.S. government, so she didn’t like him. So she told us a lot of stories about Puerto Rico and about Luis Ruiz, and Hostos, and Don Pedro Albizu Campos, Lolita Lebrón, Blanca Canales, and about how they stood up against the U.S. government. JJ: [00:14:00] (inaudible). LR: My friends were very political. JJ: When you were growing up? LR: When I was growing up -- 6 �JJ: (inaudible). LR: Oh, well, yeah, the ones that were getting high, they weren’t too political. The politics were getting high. But, yet, there was a lot of them that were political, there was a lot of them that knew that we were in a hopeless situation, that what we were doing was counter-productive to the movement. But then again, we also thought that the movement was infiltrated with drugs, a lot of drugs, so it could kill the movement, undermine the movement. So it wasn’t till I got older was when I became reawoken politically, and started working with youth, and started working as a social worker, and then I became a substance abuse counselor. And now [00:15:00] even today, I have quite a story to tell. I mean I’m clean and sober 34 years. I speak on subjects of mental illness and drug addiction. They consider me to be an expert. I have two felonies, but yet I work for the government because I’ve been -- well, the felonies were all drug-related, but I told the truth about my past and the government hired me. So I work for the government right now as a substance abuse counselor. JJ: (inaudible). LR: At the county government, yeah, for the state of California, county government, yeah. And my first job as a youth counselor was with New York, New York City, [00:16:00] Department of Employment. We were specifically targeting youth to give ’em jobs, and empower them into college, and link ’em up to community organizations that would expound records, that would work -- wrap around with their families. So it was a good thing, I felt like I was doing something good. JJ: So how did you get into (inaudible)? 7 �LR: Well, I got into it while I was in prison. I -- JJ: You talking about the government? LR: No, I didn’t get the job like that, but I got the education. I got the education like that, and then once I got out, I went to Second Chance. Second Chance is a project in New York that gives people that have been -- it’s incarcerated people. JJ: [00:17:00] Ex-offenders. LR: Yes, ex-offenders, that’s what they used to call them then. Now they call them formerly incarcerated. So they linked me up to Manpower, and then Manpower hooked up me with CIDA which is a government-run program that trains people how to become youth counselors. So I got that training and then I got hired by the state of New York as a -- specifically as a formerly incarcerated person to work with at-risk youth. So that’s what I did for nine years, and then I went back to school, I ended up at UCLA, right here in California, got another degree. JJ: (inaudible). LR: I got it from New York, but I left New York and moved to New Jersey. [00:18:00] I lived in Newark. And at the time, there was Young Lords in Newark, too. So we moved to Newark because my mom was trying to get us out of the pot, to get us off the grill, so to speak. So we went to Newark, and from Newark, after a while, I went to work for Essex County Newark. Essex County, New Jersey, Newark, and I worked as a alcohol and drug specialist. Then from there, I moved to Pennsylvania, and in Pennsylvania I became the first Latino to work in -- it made the newspapers -- to work at a youth facility for [00:19:00] Lehigh Valley in Pennsylvania, yeah. Over there by Bethlehem. And so -- 8 �JJ: (inaudible). LR: Yeah, they’re a steel town, yeah. And there were a lot of kids who were going in the wrong direction. Let me just grab my coffee real quick, gotta swallow that. JJ: So how long were you in Bethlehem? (inaudible). LR: Bethlehem, yeah, it’s very historical. I was there for seven years. JJ: (inaudible). LR: The community was -- yes, it was increasingly becoming more Puerto Rican, and Allentown eventually did become a Puerto Rican town. They used to call it Puerto Rican Town ’cause that’s how many people -- Puerto Ricans that were in Pennsylvania at the time, and there was a lot of Puerto Ricans in Philadelphia, too. But Allentown was -- we sort of took it over. JJ: [00:20:00] Okay, so Allentown (inaudible). LR: Yeah, Allentown was a very concentrated community of Puerto Ricans that originally went out to Pennsylvania to work in the steel mills and built a lot of the structures, and they worked in the foundries of Pennsylvania. JJ: (inaudible). LR: That’s okay. JJ: (inaudible) farms (inaudible). LR: A lot of what? JJ: Farms (inaudible). LR: Farms? JJ: (inaudible) Puerto Rican farm (inaudible). 9 �LR: Yeah. Actually, when -- this is the story that my mom told me. When she came to New York, she went to pick apples in the apple orchards up in mid-state New York before she met my father, and that’s how she became [00:21:00] more of a domestic worker. But, yeah, I met farmers from -- JJ: (inaudible). LR: My mom was a supporter of Albizu Campos. JJ: And she picked apples, too? LR: She picked apples, too, yeah. JJ: (inaudible). LR: No, I don’t think so. I don’t know. JJ: (inaudible). LR: (Spanish) [00:21:27 - 21:35] Don Pedro Albizu Campos was a very gifted orator. It sounded like he was always screaming, he was just talking like any Puerto Rican would talk when you had something to say. But he was tortured by the U.S. government, given radiation [00:22:00] treatments by the U.S. government. He was put in La Princesa and they called him “El Hombre de las Toallas” which was “the man of the towels” because as he was being radiated in prison, he would wrap himself up with these towels so he wouldn’t get radiated. So that’s why they called him “El Hombre de las Toallas.” But he spoke truth to power. He spoke truth against the imperialist system of the United States that was governing Puerto Ricans any which way that they wanted to. And he also organized the sugar cane workers. He organized the sugar cane workers which, at the time, they were getting paid like a nickel [00:23:00] a day or something like 10 �that, and he got them an hourly wage. And I guess that was a concession to see if they could buy him out, but he didn’t. He continued to talk truth to power, and they continued to arrest him and radiate him to the point where he was released as a political prisoner in 1964, and in 1965, he died of radiation poisoning. JJ: (inaudible) teaching you this? LR: My mom was teaching us that. She taught us that. JJ: How did you feel about what your mother was telling you? LR: How did I feel about my mom telling me that? I felt angry. I felt angry, but I also felt proud of my mom for sharing that, for letting us know about our history, about our heritage, and about the role that the United States and the public Puerto Rican government which [00:24:00] still exists today and is compliciting with the United States in continuing to colonize our people and abuse our land. And I think it was a very, very important history lesson that my mom was telling us ’cause I don’t think I would have ever learned that till I got to Brooklyn College. When I got to Brooklyn College, then we sat in for Puerto Rican studies department. I know I’m jumping a little bit, but it was a segue because we took over Brooklyn College because we wanted Puerto Rican studies to be taught. And it took us two years sitting in in Brooklyn College -- JJ: (inaudible)? LR: Sat in for two years, Brooklyn College. JJ: (inaudible). LR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean we would go to class. The building that we took over was never left alone. [00:25:00] And we were blasting salsa music, and having 11 �parties, and, you know, keep the morale up, you know? So to speak. So that was a very important event, too, because at the same time that we were fighting for the Puerto Ricans studies department at Brooklyn College, there was also apartheid going on. So we aligned ourselves with apartheid people and people who were fighting the Central American wars -- you know, the Central American people, students. That’s yours, right? That’s yours. So, no, no, no, my mother’s history lessons were always well-received by us except for my -- there’s one sister that didn’t like ’em, and she ended up in the Young Lords anyway. Gilda Moralez. JJ: [00:26:00] So you work in the radio (inaudible)? LR: No, I don’t work in that -- he works in the radio station, but I’m a volunteer for the Pacifica Network. I’ve been on the board and I’ve been on the Pacifica National Board. But that’s a whole ’nother set of politics. There’s basically people who are fighting for their communities. It goes back to the Young Lords, what the Young Lords taught me, that you fight for the communities and that you involve the community and that this is such a resource -- Pacifica Radio, five networks throughout the United States and 230 affiliates. This is such a network that I believe that’s the only reason it’s worth fighting for is because like my home station is KPFK in Los Angeles which is Adam’s show you’re gonna be on. [00:27:00] But KPFK Pacifica Radio in Los Angeles is a resource for the community, and the new general manager that’s managing the station now is community-based, grassroots-oriented, a beautiful woman, very sharp, very 12 �intelligent woman. Her name is Leslie Radford. So I just want to give Leslie a shout-out for her -JJ: (inaudible). LR: It’s affirmative, yeah. ’Cause she’s brought the radio to the community again. And she’s getting a lot of pushback, a lot of resistance from the Liberals -- and I wouldn’t even say the Liberals, I would say the center-right Republicans. And they’re just really provocateurs, [00:28:00] and really people who are not rooted in the community, and who don’t want the radio station to be rooted in the community. They want it to be sort of like a public radio which is not -- public radio is funded by (inaudible), and people who modify foods, and people who are using -- Chevron or Exxon Mobil. You know, these are people who are using the new possibility of the energy grid to be used by these oligarchs. So this is why the Pacifica Network’s important. This is why the Pacifica Network’s important, yeah. JJ: [00:29:00] (inaudible). LR: Yeah, there’s a lot of Puerto Ricans in LA. It’s more like scatter-Ricans, right? We’re pretty scattered. But there’s a new organization in LA, I’ve been coordinating an organization called the Puerto Rican Alliance since I left Brooklyn College. JJ: (inaudible). LR: No, they know that. JJ: (inaudible). LR: Really? Somebody told me that, some Brown Beret told me that. 13 �JJ: (inaudible). LR: Oh, okay. So there’s a Puerto Rican Alliance of Los Angeles which I’ve been coordinating for years, ever since the Vieques struggle, when we got the Navy to leave Vieques. And now there’s a group of very capable-minded, and young, vibrant Puerto Ricans called Puerto Ricans in Action. [00:30:00] So I don’t know if you want to hear from Puerto Ricans in Action. JJ: Yeah. LR: From me or from a member? JJ: (inaudible). LR: Yeah, come on. So I can get some coffee. JJ: Then you gotta come back (inaudible). Give me your name and where you were born. JORGE RIVERA: So my name is Jorge Luis Rivera. I was born in Yauco, Puerto Rico, but was I raised in Connecticut. JJ: You were gonna tell us about -- JR: So Puerto Ricans in action is a group that we formed about six months ago in Los Angeles due to lack of Puerto Ricans in LA, and we wanted to start protesting PROMESA and all the things that were going on on the island, and we wanted to sure that our culture and our history was being taught to the Puerto Ricans that live in LA ’cause a lot of ’em migrate there and some of them don’t know as much [00:31:00] about what’s going on on the island -- and even regular people in general of all races. So we just wanted to feed ’em information about what’s going on, throw events so they know what’s happening about our history. 14 �Last month we threw an event for Grito de Lares, and this month we’re throwing one for Grito de Guerra which, you know, the uprising in 1950. So we’re putting that together right now. So we’re gonna continue to do things like this and give back to the community by doing toy drives, that kind of thing. JJ: What’s PROMESA? JR: PROMESA is a bill that has recently passed basically bringing in La Junta, the fiscal control board, which down in Puerto Rico they’re people assigned by the United States to run the financial aspects and pretty much govern Puerto Rico, and they have full control of where the money goes and where things allocate to. [00:32:00] One of the biggest things on the bill is the minimum wage drops. Anyone under 25, minimum wage is now $4.25. So that means any company that has anyone over 25 can fire that person and hire two other people for the same rate that they were paying the other person. So there’s a lot of protest going on down there now against the newspaper companies ’cause they’re all corrupt, a lot of government officials are corrupt down there, that kind of stuff. JJ: (inaudible). JR: It’s a dictatorship, and, you know, people in Puerto Rico want independence, they want the island to be free. They want the island to be free, they want Oscar Lopez to be free, and we’re not getting [00:33:00] any of that, so we’re starting to make noise because we need them to hear us. JJ: Who is he? JR: Oscar Lopez Rivera is a political prisoner who was in prison 35 years ago for -- JJ: Still in prison? 15 �JR: Still in prison, one of the longest -- and what Lawrence likes to call being in prison for thoughts, for just thinking, he was in prison. And he’s still there and he’s one of the longest in prison political prisoners right now. And they’ve been protesting for years trying to get him freed, and we’re actually -- November 19th there’s a thing in LA where they’re doing a panel where they’re discussing all of the political prisoners right now trying to get them off with Obama before he leaves office. JJ: (inaudible). JR: Yeah, Michael [Novick?] is putting that together. We’ll be present there because we’ll be representing Oscar Lopez. JJ: [00:34:00] (inaudible). JR: He disappeared. (laughs) JJ: Go ahead and give you your name (inaudible). ADAM RICE: Okay, my name’s Adam Rice, and I am the community relations coordinator for KPFK Pacifica Radio. JJ: (inaudible). ADAM RICE: Well, basically, I’ve been there about a year. I came in with the new general manager, Leslie Radford. Previously to that, we worked in an organization called the Anti-Eviction Campaign based around giving rights -mostly around housing, but the enforcement of human rights in general, all 30 articles of the U.N. Declaration. And we bring that sensibility to KPFK because that’s really where it should be. I mean for maybe for the last six or seven years, as Lawrence has discussed earlier, you’ve had [00:35:00] sort of a big shift to the 16 �right. And the problem is it’s shifted to the right and it sort of got stuck. So KPFK gets stuck and it sounds like mid-2000s NPR, but it’s 2016 and the reason it sounds that way is because the people that have been in certain positions for several years have not been really plugged into the community. So what has been initiated under Leslie’s tenure is direct reach out to the community in Los Angeles especially, but also in Chicago, and really trying to build community up here in Berkeley, with Oakland. I don’t know if -- let’s not put this out there where everybody could just (inaudible), but -JJ: (inaudible). AR: Oh, okay. (laughs) But I mean, for example, we want Oakland. [00:36:00] We’ve been working really hard to bring Oakland to KPFK. It should be in KPFK, but you’ve gotta shift an audience. I mean you look at San Francisco, by 2020, it’s gonna be the whitest city in the country. That’s not the same audience as LA. But then you have a centralized thing here in Berkeley, and this is the old Pacifica, and white Berkeley programming is not gonna run in LA which is one of the most diverse cities in the world. I mean it’s really not. So there has to be a shift if the Pacifica Network’s going to survive because it’s been around 57 years. And it has to go back to the mission which is everybody is self-sustaining. You’re there to serve your community. I mean we’re not here, honestly, to be NPR. We are here to be a tool for the community to use to make change, and we’ve done that -- a pretty good job of shifting KPFK to that over the last year, and we’ll continue to do so. [00:37:00] And we want you, Jorge, everybody, that’s what makes KPFK. It’s basically a job -- and I think Leslie described it best, as, “Okay, 17 �my job is to kick the door open and hold that son of bitch open as long as I can, and eventually people are gonna flood it and take it.” And once the people take it, they won’t be able to take it back. It will be ours if we can show unity together. And it’s the biggest thing west of the Mississippi so it’s a real, powerful tool that we can use, 110,000 watts of bully pulpit to bash over Mayor Eric Garcetti’s head to stop him from passing laws that criminalize homeless people having property. I mean and that’s just one example of the psychotic city that is Los Angeles. The head of the police state -- which is why I never went back to Chicago ’cause I’m like, “Okay, we’re fighting on the side of Chicago, working with the Anti-Eviction Campaign, [00:38:00] the POCC,” but here in LA, this is -- we’re the testing grounds. We’re the laboratory right here in the middle of downtown Los Angeles, in Skid Row. And all over south LA, this is the laboratory for the drug war. This is the entrance point for crack cocaine. The city fought so back so hard. And in my mind, I don’t care, people can dispute all day, prove that the CIA brought -flooded the streets of Los Angeles with cocaine. I mean there’s so much history in Los Angeles, and here in Oakland as well, but I’m based in Los Angeles, so I’ve got that LA love. (laughs) But that has repercussions all over the country. And if we can break the police state in Los Angeles, I believe that we can break it all over the country especially with the criminalization of property. And I’m sorry, I got way off topic, [00:39:00] man, but that’s what we want do with KPFK is opening up -- this is the tool that we’ve all been needing. I mean what happens every time we do a demo or something? Oh, how’s the media going to spin it? Like they never get the shit right. It’s always interpreted through an upper-white- 18 �middle class lens. And we don’t have to have it interpreted, we can just go out and say, “This is our shit.” This is Jorge’s generation’s birth right. And it was my generation’s birthright, but it got skipped over because of the crazy right-wing people. We’re taking it back, and we’re going to set it up so we can hand it off. That’s what it needs to be. Thank you. LR: So just to follow-up on what Adam, I’m sure, said already -- the radio station. So the radio station is very critical to the liberation of Puerto Rico [00:40:00] because without that resource, we don’t have any place to voice our concerns about Puerto Rico. And right now, it’s critical mass in terms of what’s happening in Puerto Rico right now with La Junta, PROMESA, and setting back Puerto Rico back to the stone ages in terms of wages for their workers. So it’s really important. And it follows the philosophy of the Black Panthers and the Young Lords. It follows the philosophy of community empowerment, and giving voice to the voices, and community organizing. So that’s why the radio is extremely important as a resource to struggles that are really significant right now and that wouldn’t be heard [00:41:00] any other place -- any other place in the media. KPFK and Pacifica has that potential to address those issues that are affecting Puerto Ricans in the diaspora and Puerto Ricans on the island, so that’s why it’s important. JJ: (inaudible). LR: What’s had the most impact -- the lasting impact? JJ: (inaudible). 19 �LR: Lasting impact is the person I am today. I don’t blame the Young Lords for me dropping out of school. It gave me a sense of purpose even amidst my drug addiction and all of that. It’s hard to get high when you have a mind full of Young Lords and a heart full of Puerto Rico and still [00:42:00] remain high. It just doesn’t work. Drugs don’t work like that anymore. The lasting impact is the work that I do is still related to what the Young Lords taught me -- working in the community, working with the severely mentally ill, the homeless, the drug addicted, the afflicted. That is my purpose today, and I’m just happy that I’m getting paid to do it. So every community that’s suffering -- the African American community with what’s happening in their lives today where the youth are killed with impunity without any regards to any concerns to who they are as human beings. So that tells me a lot about what the Young Lords taught me, that -- not that all lives matter [00:43:00] because all lives didn’t matter to Black Lives Matter, so Black lives do matter. And so I’m involved with that struggle as well, and I will continue to be because that’s what the Young Lords taught me. The Black Panthers and the Young Lords taught me that the people -- the mission is power to the people, it’s giving power to the people. So that’s it. That’s the way I feel and that’s the way I live today. I live as a Young Lord. And I think anybody that has just a touch of what the Young Lord philosophy and the Black Panther program was, and the Young Lords program, that once you have that in you, you’re gonna be a better human being and every human being that you encounter is gonna sense that as well. When Mandela [00:44:00] was alive, they said -- in Puerto Rico they said, “Todos somos macheteros,” because that’s our 20 �aspiration is to be free. Free of the empire, free in the diaspora, free in Puerto Rico, Puerto Rico libre is our aspiration, and that’s what the Young Lords gave me. JJ: (inaudible). LR: Any final thoughts? Well, Cha-Cha, for you, I mean -- I love you, man, for what you did, what you began, and what you founded. It’s an amazing thing, man. I thought I would be dead at [00:45:00] 21 and I’m alive at 60. And that’s all because of (Spanish). And for you, lots of love, man, lots of respect to you. You are one of my heroes, and those are my final thoughts. Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 21 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4abe640c96a56cfea3a05e7a94e6d6cc.mp4 ead5c95081e9665b1a901a2bfdeb0053 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Lawrence Reyes vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Historia oral de Lawrence Reyes, entrevistado por José 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 23/10/2016 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Reyes_Lawrence Title A name given to the resource Lawrence Reyes video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Reyes, Lawrence Description An account of the resource Oral history of Lawrence Reyes, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez on 10/23/2016 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3936f5a801a3eb600ac7d603631e1431.pdf fc1513fee8846bc1b5f6896fe061e8fc PDF Text Text Young   L ords   In  Lincoln  Park   Interviewee:  Minerva  Solla   Interviewers:  Jose  Jimenez   Location:  Grand  Valley  State  University  Special  Collections   Date:  10/4/2016   Runtime:  00:41:11         Biography  and  Description   Oral  history  of  Minerva  Solla,  interviewed  by  Jose  “Cha-­‐Cha”  Jimenez  on  October  04,  2016  about  the   Young  Lords  in  Lincoln  Park.   She  was  born  in  New  York  City  and  raised  in  the  West  Side  of  Manhattan  in  the  Chelsea  area  around   17th  Street  and  8th  Avenue  near  the  17th  Street  Park.  The  projects  were  primarily  Puerto  Rican  and   Black  but  it  was  always  in  conflict  with  the  Sicilian  Italians  and  the  Irish  of  the  Village  neighborhood...   There  were  some  youth  who  were  members  of  the  Assassins  gang  and  when  things  got  rough  they   would  travel  to  Upper  Manhattan  and  bring  back  more  Assassins  to  help  protect  the  people  of  their   neighborhood,  mostly  with  baseball  bats,  chains  and  knives.       �Minerva  grew  up  in  NYC  with  the  younger  Cuevas  family  kids  and  remembers  traveling  back  and  forth  to   Puerto  Rico  where  she  lived  during  her  teenage  years  and  is  the  home  of  most  of  her  relatives.  In  Puerto   Rico  she  lived  in  the  barrio  or  neighborhood  of  Collores  of  the  town  of  Juana  Diaz  not  far  from  Villalba.   She  visited  with  her  Grandmother,  Antonia  Pacheco,  a  retired  school  teacher  from  the  University  of   Puerto  Rico.  Her  mother  Aida  Hernandez  Garcia  was  born  in  Villalba,  a  country  and  she  remembers   picking  up  fallen  avocados  off  the  ground  for  dinner.  Her  father  Edwin  Diaz  hailed  from  the  city  of   Santurce  and  Minerva  recalls  always  visiting  the  post  office  with  her  Grandfather  where  a  few  of  her   uncles  worked.  She  is  one  of  three  sisters  from  her  mother’s  side,  and  another  sister  from  her  father’s   side.   Minerva’s  sister  was  proactive  in  the  community  and  she  joined  the  Young  Lords  in  New  York  in  1970,   right  after  they  split  from  Chicago  and  changed  their  name  from  YLO  to  YLP.  Her  family  did  not  want  her   involved  because  they  thought  it  was  a  gang.  However  she  says  that  it  was  in  the  Young  Lords  that  she   learned  her  history  and  felt  Puerto  Rico  in  her  heart,  even  though  she  was  born  in  New  York.  There  was   a  saying  in  Spanish  that  she  recalls:  Yo  no  naci  en  Puerto  Rico  pero  Puerto  Rico  nacio  en  mi.”  I  was  not   born  in  Puerto  Rico  but  Puerto  Rico  was  born  in  me.   �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Give me your name and where you’re from. MINERVA SOLLA: Okay, Minerva Solla, Puertorriquena de Nueva York. JJ: Okay, all right. MS: -- you want me to start or just talk about my life? JJ: If you can give me your name, where you were born, anything related to how you got to the Young Lords. And then we’ll start from there. MS: Okay. JJ: Okay. Anytime, go ahead. MS: Okay. My name is Minerva Solla, and I was born in New York City. I came from -- parents from Puerto Rico. JJ: From where? MS: Puerto Rico. And my mom was born in Villalba and my dad in Santurce. And all my family is in Puerto Rico. And I lived in Puerto Rico when I was a teenager, and I was always back and forth from New York City to Puerto Rico. My parents came -- [00:01:00] JJ: Who’s your parents -- names? What are their names? MS: Mami’s name, Aida Hernandez Garcia. And my dad, Edwin Solla. JJ: Okay, and now what about brothers and sisters? MS: My sister was born -- Gloria, and she was born in Santurce, Puerto Rico. And my other sister, her name [Evelyn?] and then I have another sister from my dad’s side named [Jeannette?] Solla. 1 �JJ: Okay. And when did move here from Puerto Rico? You said they’re in Puerto Rico now? MS: Well, my sister, the one that was born in Puerto Rico, she actually lives here. Well, she lives in New York and she’s a teacher. And she, right now, she’s with the union, United Federation, UFT. And she stays involved. She used to work in a post office, put herself through school, went to City College. And now [00:02:00] she retired but she’s still very active with teaching when they need her. And she’s active in the community. JJ: Teaching? MS: Yeah, she teaches. She’s a teacher with the disabled. JJ: With the disabled? MS: Yes, disabled. Mm-hmm. JJ: And then, okay so Minerva, you grew up in New York, but you said you went back and forth. MS: Yes. I grew up in New York City, but always back and forth to Puerto Rico. My grandfather -- we used to go to Collores and that’s next to Juana Diaz. So I was always -- I lived in Juana Diaz for a short period of time with my uncle and aunt. But we were always either in Juana Diaz, Collores, or Santurce. And we would go in the summer because that was the cheapest time to go, during the summer when it’s really hot. So we would [00:03:00] spend most of our summers over there in Puerto Rico. JJ: What did you do when you went there? 2 �MS: I used to go with my grandfather a lot to Avenida de America. We used to go to the post office and that was my dad’s side of the family. But my mom’s side of the family, which is my grandfather, he used to -- (Spanish) [00:03:25] So I’m going to be talking New York Rican style. (Spanish) [00:03:31] He used to always be on his horses so we used to go to the farm, and he used to have a machete, and he would -- I always admired him. He had a really big hat and always -- (Spanish) [00:03:46], he was chopping caña all the time. So we would go to the beaches though a lot around the Boquerón area and Aguadilla. And we were always in Ponce, and I [00:04:00] have -- all of my family is there right now except for me and my -- JJ: In Ponce? MS: Well, yeah, all over Puerto Rico. JJ: Okay. And did you say how many brothers and sisters you had? MS: We have three girls altogether. And then I had another sister from my dad’s side of the family. JJ: And -- so this is when you were older, going back and forth right? MS: No, when we were young little girls and I lived in Puerto Rico during my teenage life for a little while, but I was back and forth since probably five, six, ten, all the way up to thirteen years old. Including when I joined the Young Lords Party. So when I joined the Young Lords Party, I had a young daughter, and I named her [Taina?]. She was probably maybe one of the first Young Lord baby. And Mickey Melendez gave me [00:05:00] a baby shower. And Taina because I thought it was going to be a Taino, but it was Taina, so we changed the o to a. 3 �And when she was a little baby I would go visit my grandmother in Santurce. And that was during the time -JJ: What was grandma’s name? What was her name? MS: My grandmother, her name was Antonia Pacheco. She was a teacher in Puerto Rico. JJ: She’s another teacher? MS: Yeah, for the University of PR. And she obviously passed away a while ago. And we were always around my grandmother with the other teachers of Puerto Rico. But her brothers, they worked in a post office and one of them was like a big position. And one of the first -- his name was Pacheco too, his last name. And he had a big position in the post office, so that’s why we were always in the post office. It was like a thing with my grandfather, taking us to the post office. JJ: In this is in Santurce? [00:06:00] MS: Yes. So my grandmother was a teacher in the University of Puerto Rico, yes. JJ: Oh so she was there. And you would hang out with your grandmother -- MS: My grandmother, my grandfather, and also from my mother’s side, he -- JJ: And your grandfather’s name was? MS: Daniel. Daniel Pacheco. JJ: From your mother’s side? MS: From my mother’s side it was Gabriel. Gabriel Garcia. JJ: And he was from Santurce? MS: No, Gabriel was from Collores. JJ: Collores, okay. There’s a song -- 4 �MS: Juana Diaz I know. There’s a song about Collores. And that’s where -- Villalba is the little town where they had the -- it’s known for gandules. Gandules. So we used to be opening the gandules. Yeah, they used to teach us how to do that. And in Villalba, I have a lot of cousins there and we used to climb the trees to get the aguacates. So we used to, you know, [00:07:00] that kind of stuff. That’s how we used to play. JJ: And you just climbed naturally? MS: Yeah, yeah. But then a lot of times they were -- JJ: How far did they fall down? MS: Well a lot of times they were just on the ground, the aguacates, and we would pick them up and bring them to our mothers. JJ: So that was a (inaudible) campo? MS: That was a campo. Absolutely, a campo where most of the mosquitoes were (Spanish) [00:07:24] but I guess for all Puerto Ricans we -- JJ: (inaudible) Was there a bathroom? MS: No. We used to -- a latrine, you know? And we used to have the outbox. JJ: Outhouse? MS: Right that’s what you call it? Yeah and not too many people like doing, I guess. Just the generations that came after me -- JJ: They don’t know that. MS: No, they don’t know that. But as little girls, not in Santurce. We had the bathroom in Santurce -- my grandmother’s house there. But in my grandfather’s, my mother’s side was the [campesino?]. [00:08:00] 5 �JJ: Ah. So let me -- tell me about New York, coming back and forth to New York. MS: Yeah, coming back and forth from New York. When my mother -- when she came to New York, it was like in 1948 around there. And that was like an influx of Puerto Ricans coming to New York City. And of course when they came to New York City, they were coming into the factories. And my mother used to work in a restaurant -- a Puerto Rican restaurant. And all the Puerto Ricans used to go to this restaurant because everybody was here from Puerto Rico and that’s where they were in the garment industry. So my mother worked in a restaurant. She put us in Catholic school. JJ: What’s is the garment industry? What’s -- MS: The garment industry was in Chelsea, Manhattan. [00:09:00] And that’s 15th Street, 16th Street, 17th Street, downtown Manhattan, and it’s on the West Side. It was called the Chelsea area -- JJ: Is that a Puerto Rican neighborhood? MS: Yes. A lot of Puerto Ricans but there was Irish and there was Italian. So it was really bad for Puerto Ricans there at that time -- JJ: What do you mean? MS: Because we were seen as the new group coming and like the immigrants, even though we’re citizens of the United States. But we were seen as the immigrants coming in. The Irish was there before us, and the Italians were there before the Irish. So the groups did not get along and there was a lot of gangs that were, I guess -- JJ: So the gangs, in those gangs, were there women? 6 �MS: There were gangs. JJ: What about the women? MS: They were. They were the Assassins, and they were also in the gangs. [00:10:00] JJ: And they were gangs too? MS: Yeah, they were called the Young Assassins. JJ: Were the women and the men fighting or? MS: Yes. A lot of fighting. A lot of killing, knives. Everyone wore -- the Assassins wore black leather coats and actually berets. They weren’t Black Panthers, but they were gangs. JJ: [So this would be around the ’60s?] MS: That was in 1970 -- not it had to be in 1966. Well maybe it was 1965, around there. JJ: And they were kind of -- the Assassins were kind of big at that time. MS: Yes, they were called the Assassins and then the younger groups which were the teenagers, they were called the Junior Assassins. And they were mainly Black and Puerto Rican. So the Puerto Rican and Black people in the Chelsea area, very tight. And it was -- culturally, [00:11:00] we were together through the dancing, through food, through soul food, through the arroz con gandules, through the rice and beans. And when there ever was any gang fights, it was Black and Puerto Rican against Italians. So we were called Spics, just like the West Side Story, right? It was basically the West Side Story said a lot about that 7 �time, so the Italians were called Guineas, and we were called Spics. That was derogatory for Puerto Rican, Spics. JJ: Was that a real group? You know, like the Young Lords that they come from the West Side Story, did you know that? MS: They came from what? JJ: The color purple came from the West Side Story. MS: Oh, look at that. JJ: Yeah. [That’s the only hero they had. But that’s where we came from. We dyed our shirts purple and everything?]. [00:12:00] MS: Oh, look at that. JJ: (laughs) But that was -- that was the big thing at the time in New York. When the movie came out? MS: Yes. The West Side Story? Yes. It was big. JJ: (inaudible) That’s the only hero they had from the movie. And then they moved to Chelsea and that’s when they (inaudible). MS: Yes we were -- so the Puerto Ricans were in the Chelsea area in Manhattan which was -- JJ: Was the West Side Story about that [happening?]? MS: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. And then, when you go upper Manhattan, it was the Dominican community. So we were kind of divided. The Dominicans were upper Manhattan, the Puerto Ricans were in the 17th Street Park. Gil Scott, Gil ScottHeron, he came from 17th Street and his song on the cork and the bottle, he talks about 17th Street. So 17th Street was [00:13:00] a park, but there was a lot of 8 �drugs and a lot of young people using drugs and a lot of alcoholism going on during that time. And there was, you know, unfortunately there was like fights between again, the Italians and the Puerto Ricans. And they -- the Assassins were from upper Manhattan, Harlem, and outside of New York City. And when there was going to be a gang war fight, they would come in. There was a lot of women. They used to put the -- the women used to put the razors like before they went into the fight, in their hair. It was very common, you know, to cut each other up. JJ: This was mainly Blacks and Puerto Ricans? MS: Yes. JJ: So I guess [clearly?] the Black and Puerto Rican communities hung out together basically? MS: That’s how New York City was. JJ: (inaudible) Sometimes I feel there’s more [00:14:00] in New York than in Chicago. They’re more -- Chicago is more like (inaudible)-oriented, and New York is more urban and a lot closer to the Black community. Well, to the culture. I don’t know about (inaudible). MS: Well we had the projects. And in the projects, the only people that lived in the projects were Black and Puerto Rican, right? And then in the tenement houses, where we all had -- it was only maybe a couple of blocks from where we lived. We went to the schools together, we played basketball. We mainly met through the dances, and it was a very tight connection with Black and Puerto Rican. With a lot of stuff, it was not just the culture. It was the food, it was the soul food, rice 9 �and bean, very -- we used to go to La Taza de Oro. [00:15:00] It was on 15th Street on 8th Avenue. So that’s where Black and Puerto Ricans, we introduced our Black sisters and brothers to La Taza. And that was a Puerto Rican restaurant that just recently closed. It was 50 cents to get rice and beans during that time. So we connected even though we weren’t -- our group was not part of the gang. But we used to wear the black leather. JJ: The black leather jackets too? MS: People had the alpacas. JJ: Yeah, we had like (inaudible). MS: But when there was any trouble in the neighborhood, there was some -- couple of people in our group that was part of the Assassins and if there was any trouble, they would bring in the Assassins to -- JJ: So the Assassins were a big [help?] (inaudible). MS: Big. JJ: They came to the (inaudible) for you. MS: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. JJ: And they were women. MS: There were men and women. JJ: Men and women? MS: Yeah. In our group, there was a young woman [00:16:00] named Mickey, and her last name was Melendez. So Melendez, they had maybe seven and they were in the Assassins. [Danny?] Melendez, all the Melendez. All of them. All of them. 10 �JJ: So this was the Melendez (inaudible), and Mickey is (inaudible). MS: Well it wasn’t that Mickey Melendez. JJ: Isn’t that the same one? MS: No, there was another. It wasn’t that Melendez that belonged -- they were younger than Mickey that belong in our group in Chelsea. It was Chelsea. JJ: But they were Young Lords too? MS: No, they just were from Chelsea, and I grew up with them. JJ: And you grew up with them. MS: Oh, wait. I’m sorry. The name was [Cuevas?]. Danny Cuevas. The Cuevas family. JJ: And you grew with up with them? And so how were they since you grew up together? MS: They were real Puerto Rican. They were Puerto Ricans. JJ: What does that mean? MS: Well [00:17:00] when you’re a Puerto Rican, whether you were born in Puerto Rico. You know that saying? (Spanish) [00:17:06] Growing up and even now, Puerto Rico is in everybody’s heart. So I guess when I say real Puerto Rican, when you see a Puerto Rican, Boricuas. Okay, Boricuas, you know? So that’s what the Young Lords were about. When we heard about this Puerto Rican group, we said, oh, it’s a Puerto Rican group. Let’s go check out Felipe Luciano in Brooklyn College. And when he spoke about what they were doing as Puerto Ricans, we joined the Young Lords. However, in New York City, the majority were Puerto Ricans that joined the party, but we also had African American and 11 �then also other sisters and brothers from another Latin American -- like Salvador, [00:18:00] from another part of Latin America. But mainly everybody was Puerto Rican. JJ: Were your parents political? MS: Mami, I would say Mami, she -- so for instance, she liked Kennedy because -- so she talked about the good that Kennedy was doing. And then she also liked Martin Luther King. But basically she was very poor, and her mom died when she was maybe eight years old. So her dad couldn’t keep them because he didn’t know how to raise them actually. So there’s something that’s called (foreign language?), [00:19:00] so she grew up with her cousins and her aunt. They took her in, but she basically -- she said she never had dolls. She made out of the broomsticks, she used to make her dolls. And she was like a Cinderella I guess. She used to have to shine the wooden floors, you know? She didn’t have her schooling. I think she had to leave school when she was eight years old to care for the house. And then when she got older, she came to New York City looking for a better life. And because they said it was going to be a better life, but she landed working like my aunt in the garment industry and in the restaurant part-time. She had us go to school. While we were in school at three o’clock she would leave her job to take care of us. She actually was a single mom because my dad never lived with her. He would come in and out of the house, [00:20:00] but she raised three daughters and then in the summer -- I don’t know if you know about La Villa. But Las Villas is an area where a lot of the Jews used to go and it’s like, La Villa is in Plattekill, New York -- upstate New 12 �York. And then when the Puerto Ricans came in, everybody goes to La Villa. La Villa, (Spanish) [00:20:24], they used to bring Gran Combo, all the dancing. Then that’s where we used to go when we were little girls and we would go with our mothers and our aunts. And that was where you went for Labor Day, Fourth of July, Las Villas. JJ: In New York. Upstate in New York. MS: Yes and every Puerto Rican and people from Puerto Rico used to come, would go to Las Villas. So it was like -- it’s in the Catskill region. So it’s -- and that’s upstate New York. And now, they don’t do that anymore. I think they do stuff but it’s [00:21:00] not like how popular it was like the Palladium, in New York City. All the people that used to go to the Palladium used to go to Las Villas. JJ: So you went to the Palladium too? MS: You know, I might have gone to the Palladium maybe once. My sister used to go to the Palladium a lot. JJ: And that was -- everyone went there. MS: Every -- all Puerto Ricans went there, the Palladium. Yeah. And everybody went to Las Villas. And everybody went to Orchard Beach. That was our Luquillo. JJ: So you went to Las Villas. You went to Las Villas? MS: Yes. JJ: And how was that? MS: Las Villas was -- I was maybe eight years old. Eight, nine, ten. And La Villa was fun to go because it was -- JJ: And what happened there? Why was it fun? 13 �MS: It was fun because it was a lot of the energy. (Spanish) [00:21:47], dancing, salsa. They would bring in bands, Gran Combo, all the bands that -- Tito Nieves and while our parents used to go to the [00:22:00] main ballroom and dance, we used to stay in the room. But we would hear the music. They also had swimming pools in New York City at the time. We never went swimming. So when you go to the Catskill region, they had swimming pools, and we used to like that. It was getting out of the city, and it was a connection of Puerto Rico. Because when we used to go to Puerto Rico, the first thing, place we would go to, we would always go, was la playa, the beaches. That’s where we were always. JJ: [And where would you go? To what beaches?] MS: In Boquerón? JJ: In (inaudible)? MS: Cabo Rojo, Boquerón. And then -- JJ: I’ve never been to the beach in Puerto Rico. MS: Oh my goodness. JJ: (inaudible) MS: So if you go like in Boquerón, you can go like beach to beach to beach. They have Guánica, they have Playa Gorda. They have Gilligan’s Island they call it. It’s actually a little island and they have [00:23:00] beautiful beaches. Playa Buyé is a small little beach, so you can go beach-hopping. So, on that part of Puerto Rico. JJ: So basically growing up in that neighborhood, what was it like? 14 �MS: In New York City? JJ: Yeah. MS: It was -- our parents were really strict, but we used to play basketball a lot. And we used to play baseball. And everybody was Puerto Rican like I said, Puerto Rican and Black. There was a couple maybe white girls that belonged to the group, and you can say that (Spanish) [00:23:44] because they dance salsa. They just connected with our group instead of connecting with the Italians and the Irish because it was a very divided. JJ: (inaudible) [00:24:00] Because we didn’t have [any leader?] How was that in New York? [As a group?] (inaudible) MS: No, we were not timid. We were not intimidated. We basically -- the neighborhood was really our neighborhood. And when we walked in those streets it was -- our streets. So, 17th Street Park was like our park. And when we would go to the projects, it was like our projects. Everybody knew each other and even if you were out late at night, the [wino?], they knew you. They didn’t mess with each other. However, when you crossed the line down to the Village, if you went like to West Fourth, West Third Street, you had to be really careful. You couldn’t go by yourself. You had to go in groups because that’s where there was more Italians [00:25:00] in that area. So they used to have that, Sicily, I think, Italian festival every year. We were always told not to go there. Some of us would go there and then were always -- JJ: So they were (inaudible). MS: That’s where there were fights. 15 �JJ: They were ready to jump on you? MS: Yes, mm-hmm. JJ: And what years was this? MS: That was in the ’60s. JJ: And they were still jumping on Puerto Ricans in the ’60s? MS: Mm-hmm. Yeah. JJ: I mean there was none of that in Chicago. So tell me about -- what did you do with Young Lords from the beginning [up until now?] MS: So with the Young Lords, when we were in high school and I guess that was around 1969 because I joined the Young Lords in 1970. So a lot of the Puerto Ricans in the community, we were hearing -- JJ: Did you see (inaudible)? MS: Well, my mother didn’t agree with -- JJ: And she wasn’t for Kennedy. (inaudible) MS: They didn’t agree with [00:26:00] the Young Lords because they said they were - JJ: They were not in the [communist?] party or anything like that. MS: No. They were -- our parents thought -- the talk about the Young Lords with my parents and people her age, their age, it was that they were a gang. So they didn’t want us to get hurt. JJ: They didn’t want you to be in the Young Lords. MS: Right because they said it was a gang. In Puerto Rico, every -- mostly my dad’s side of the family, they disowned me. I couldn’t go to their home. When I went to 16 �Puerto Rico, I was able to go to my grandmother’s house because she supposed what I was doing. She might have not supported the politics because I was for the independence of Puerto Rico. I stood up for that. And in New York City though, our parents thought that if you join the Young Lords, you’re going to be in a gang. You’re in a gang. [00:27:00] And they saw it as fighting. They saw that we were going to get hurt. And I was a young girl. So it was like, that is not for you. They used to call me Chiki. In Puerto Rico, my name is Chiki. So in New York City too, my parents and her -- my aunt, her sister, her name is [Liduina?]. She’s still alive. She’s 89. She’s great. One thing my parents, they never knew English. They -- the Spanish -- even until now, my aunt -- but what I was going to say about the Young Lords, they thought it was a gang. So they didn’t want us to join. So once I joined, I couldn’t go back to my mom’s house. And I couldn’t even use the bathroom because I was seen like I guess dirty or I’m going the wrong direction, [00:28:00] (Spanish). You’re supposed to be in school, (Spanish) [00:28:09], that kind of stuff. So it was rough, and I had to -- I made a decision early on in life that this was what was right, and this was what I needed to be, who I needed to be with other people in the Young Lords Party. And I saw a lot of injustice, especially in the Lower East Side because that’s where the branch was when I first went and joined the party. I went to Brooklyn College. I saw -- but I went with my girlfriend, her name was Flaca. And we said, let’s go check out Felipe Luciano. When we heard him speak, I know he recruited a whole lot of other people there, but when we heard him speak, we just looked at each other and said [00:29:00] we’re going to join the party tomorrow. So we left 17 �high school. We were in high school. We left. And we joined the party the very next day. We went to El Barrio, which is Spanish Harlem, and they told us, look. They’re just opening a branch in the Lower East Side. There’s a lot of Puerto Ricans there. So we went and that’s close to Chelsea. So we said, okay, we’ll go there. So we went there and that’s where we joined. It was on East Third Street, between Avenue A and B, that’s where the branch was. JJ: And what did you do at the branch (inaudible). MS: Well, what we used to do is that they used to give us political education and people that were just a couple years older -- JJ: Who was giving the political education? MS: They were teaching us about the Red Book, which was Mao Tse-tung. [00:30:00] We learned about dialectics, and it was something that we were not -I didn’t know about that. So it was a challenge because it was different paragraphs where they would kind of break it down for us. But mainly we learned about the history of Puerto Rico. And I thought that was good for us because we didn’t know about the history of Puerto Rico. My mom used to sometimes talk about Pedro Albizu Campos and my aunt did. But they never sat us down like they did at the branch in Lower East Side. So Iris Morales and Juan González and Yoruba and David Perez -- JJ: Who do you remember? Say something about each one (inaudible). MS: Well, Iris I remember that she was the one who [00:31:00] put it down in basics of ABC, of us understanding about our history of Puerto Rico. And she did it in a real soft-spoken manner. And at the same time, she was very powerful and 18 �passionate. She was very passionate. So what she was able to teach was from the heart. And it resonated with everybody there. JJ: And then what about Yoruba? MS: Yoruba? Crazy. In a good way. Because he was like -- every young person related to Yoruba because they like his style. You know, the way he was swag when he would talk and just his mannerism. [00:32:00] And we used to party, we used to hang out, we used to get high. So we went to the party, it was like, okay, you don’t really -- JJ: You were getting high on weed or? MS: Yeah, in the streets, yeah. We did drugs. JJ: (inaudible) MS: And we drank. But when we went to the party, it was people our age. So we change also the women of the parties, this is something that Denise brought out and Denise Oliver and other women, is that we all got afros, right? So before the party, we all used to straighten -- JJ: (inaudible) MS: We used to straighten our hair, you know? (Spanish) [00:32:51] Because we wanted to be white. We wanted to have straight hair. We didn’t want our African roots. [00:33:00] And we all got into the afro, just like during that time a lot of the beautiful Black women. But of course our African roots in being Puerto Ricans, all the sisters who had the really curly nappy hair afro. And then at the time, my hair real curly and I stopped straightening it and I just cut it. And it was all curly. We let our natural beauty come out. So and our dressing changed. So we used 19 �to wear the -- no, we had combat boots, we took off our high heels, right? Combat boots and the khaki pants and (Spanish) [00:33:46] those jackets? Like the fatigues, right? And then we had our purple berets. So every day, that’s how we used to get dressed [00:34:00] and it was really changing how we were taught. Like society says we have to look this way, and we have to act this way. So we had a whole change of being and we learned that in Young Lords Party. So we got education, we learned about our own natural beauty, we learned how to respect each other as women. We learned to help others through respecting women also. At the time, I didn’t understand sexism, I was very passive. And they always were talking about the passivity and speaking up and that we were an intelligent individual. And that we can do anything that a brother could do at the party as well. [00:35:00] JJ: And you have children. MS: I do. Taina is the first child, Taina Maria, and then I also have [Jose Gabriel?] and [Liana?]. And then I have [Maya?] and [Gabriela?]. JJ: Any grandchildren? MS: Yeah. The grandchildren -- I have a lot of grandchildren and children in Florida, Miami, and Orlando as you know. There’s a whole -- all the Puerto Ricans are in Orlando. And the grandchildren are C.J., [Chad Martinez?] and [Brandon?] and [Layla?] and [Samaya?]. JJ: So they’ll probably see this but it’s going to be online. And so -- MS: And -- I mentioned Gabriela. 20 �JJ: What do you want them to know about [00:36:00] (inaudible) and the work that you do in terms of the Young Lords and other stuff like that? Some people didn’t like the Young Lords. Never understood the Young Lords. What do you want them to remember? The good work. You and -- as a final thought. MS: Well, I want them to remember that basically the Young Lords came about following the footsteps of the Black Panther Party. And so many similar things. So the food program, the clothing program, the Lincoln Hospital healthcare which is all connected to basically what a lot of the work that I have done with the Healthcare Workers Unions and now with the Nurses Union [00:37:00] that I’m working with. And it’s -- JJ: You’re a union organizer. MS: Yes. And I work a lot with culture, connecting culture, the arts, to the every day activism that we are still active with. So the Young Lords Party, I could say back then and now and in the future that whatever we do, we never give up. And whatever we do, we do the best that we can do. But we can’t do it by ourselves, we do it as a collective. And that the society -- one thing about the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party and all the groups that ever came together to change and to make it better for working family for our children, is that we’re fighting. If we don’t, [00:38:00] a lot of injustice right now that we fought back then, we’re fighting now. And that you can’t do it by yourself. And society always says, it’s a me society. It’s an I society. But it really it is a we society. Because when we have experiences, we come together and that helps with us -- our good experiences and bad experiences brings us together. And could analyze the 21 �good experience and how we can make it better and make bad experiences. But the collective is the only folks that can do that. And you have to always go into the community, stay with the community, understand the community. We are community. And we are patients too. So when we go in the hospitals, we want quality healthcare. We want universal healthcare. We want single payor. [00:39:00] We want good housing. Simple things. Our families, working family want a good vacation. That’s all we want. Real basic, we don’t want to get rich. But in this society, it’s the one percent, maybe two percent that controls everything and always has. And we are who -- we’re the 99 percent. But we are one people. The 99 percent are Boricuas, are African American, are white, are all people just wanting to make this country. We made this country and wanting to make this country a better country. And we’re a beautiful people. And that’s why we do what we -- that’s why Lo Boricua, they’re -- they hold Puerto Rico in their heart. [00:40:00] They carry it. And even they always, you know, there’s this thing on Facebook that when the Puerto Ricans are babies, they put the stamp, la bandera, because we’re so proud of la bandera, and you remember the flag waving. The Puerto Rican flag waving came from the Young Lords Party in New York City at the UN when Yoruba led -- Pablo Yoruba Guzman and the leadership of the party led that long march from El Barrio to the UN. And it was like 10,000 people in the street. And (Spanish) [00:40:38] all down those streets, the UN, and it’s inspirational. And that’s how we continue with the Sí Se Puede attitude. You have to have that Sí Se Puede attitude. And you have to have fun and that’s what we do (Spanish). [00:41:00] 22 �JJ: Let me just shut this down. MS: Okay, okay, good. END OF VIDEO FILE 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/71ffb6a924b2b452af0e5c6f5e4a904d.mp4 0c99a5bb87e50b837edd5fa2c39810a7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Minerva Solla vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Historia oral de Minerva Solla, entrevistado por José 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 23/10/2016 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Solla_Minerva Title A name given to the resource Minerva Solla video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Solla, Minerva Description An account of the resource Oral history of Minerva Solla, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez on 10/23/2016 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2a58fff3926b7b2d4bf4d61cd3da6fc3.pdf 3dfbee9a91bee70d78f357a4bec39420 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Estervina Jiménez Velez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/23/2012 Biography and Description Although Estervina Jiménez has never lived in Chicago herself, her life has been deeply connected to the city. Born and raised in Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico, Ms. Jiménez’s husband, Cordero, traveled back and forth to Chicago’s La Clark for work in the early 1950s. Many of her other family members did the same, starting and sustaining the social clubs, congregations, businesses, and other organizations that were at the core of Chicago’s Puerto Rican community. Ms. Jiménez also had several uncles migrate to Detroit during that same period in the late 1940s and early 1950s. Through her memories, it is clear that social clubs like the Hachas Viejas and other were a fundamental source of support for separated families in a strange land. These organizations also provided a way to cope with language and cultural challenges, segregated streets, and housing discrimination. Today, Ms. Jiménez volunteers in her church in San Salvador, the Catholic capilla. She delivers communion to the sick and visits and prays with them. She spends much time sitting on her porch with her husband, who is now in poor health, talking with the travelers who walk down the small path in front of her home. When someone dies in San Salvador, she makes herself available to assist in the traditional novena and helps to lead and to pray the rosary for the nine days. If there is an event or program she also helps out. In fact, she helps the priest whenever called upon and volunteers to daily to clean the church. Ms. Jiménez �is a resource for the residents of San Salvador, especially in the Morena and Lao Frío sections of Caguas. Ask anyone from San Salvador and they will also tell you that she is like the unofficial mayor. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d13342eb1b9b5e319d3a5e823c05fae.mp4 0228b954b73837dd43bda5ad893fff0a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Estervina Jiménez Velez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Velez_Estervina Title A name given to the resource Estervina Jiménez Velez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Velez, Estervina Description An account of the resource Although Estervina Jiménez has never lived in Chicago herself, her life has been deeply connected to the city. Born and raised in Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico, Ms. Jiménez’s husband, Cordero, traveled back and forth to Chicago’s La Clark for work in the early 1950s. Many of her other family members did the same, starting and sustaining the social clubs, congregations, businesses, and other organizations that were at the core of Chicago’s Puerto Rican community. Ms. Jiménez also had several uncles migrate to Detroit during that same period in the late 1940s and early 1950s. Through her memories, it is clear that social clubs like the Hachas Viejas and other were a fundamental source of support for separated families in a strange land. These organizations also provided a way to cope with language and cultural challenges, segregated streets, and housing discrimination. Today, Ms. Jiménez volunteers in her church in San Salvador, the Catholic capilla. She delivers communion to the sick and visits and prays with them. She spends much time sitting on her porch with her husband, who is now in poor health, talking with the travelers who walk down the small path in front of her home. When someone dies in San Salvador, she makes herself available to assist in the traditional novena and helps to lead and to pray the rosary for the nine days. If there is an event or program she also helps out. In fact, she helps the priest whenever called upon and volunteers to daily to clean the church. Ms. Jiménez is a resource for the residents of San Salvador, especially in the Morena and Lao Frío sections of Caguas. Ask anyone from San Salvador and they will also tell you that she is like the unofficial mayor. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9802e2bfb59c15acf7acc990be467843.pdf d7e1626c3623f5899af83f7f982fb313 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carlos Vasquez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/18/2012 Biography and Description Carlos Vazquez is from Detroit, Michigan but he was born in Mexico and his family is from Ciudad Juárez on the border with Texas. Mr. Vasquez’s family settled in Detroit in the 1940s and 1950s.The family stays together and helps each other. In fact every year they have a family reunion and it is usually Mr. Vasquez who plays a major role in organizing it. He is the youngest of his siblings and says he “understands Spanish well but does not speak it.” Mr. Vasquez is a musician who has played in several bands. He loves blues and plays rock and roll, country, Motown, Puerto Rican iibaro music, among others. Mr. Vasquez learned jibaro when he lived within a Puerto Rican household for several years in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He met José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez while Mr. Jiménez was a senior counselor/supervisor for Project Rehab. Mr. Vasquez decided to join the Young Lords and has volunteered to work on all of the Lincoln Park Camps. Mr. Vasquez has also recruited other volunteers to handle the sound and stage at those events. The Lincoln Park Camps were first organized in 2000 during the Vieques, Puerto Rico protests that eventually closed down the military base. It was the beginning of a reunion and an educational vehicle for the Young Lords, since the Young Lords had not been active for many years. DePaul University was then also helping to document the origins of the Young Lords. So the camp became a semi-retreat to educate and motivate people. The first camp was held in Ford Lincoln Park in Lakeview, Michigan. There was the roasting of a pig, boat and hay rides. The �Teatro Chicana paid for and made the journey, all the way from California and Washington. They produced and were able to get others at the weekend camp to participate in a guerilla skit about the displacement of the people from Lincoln Park, Chicago. Many people came from Puerto Rico, New York, Aurora, Chicago, Milwaukee, Lansing, Detroit, and Grand Rapids. Today Mr. Vasquez’s son and other children still recall the event and say that it had a positive effect on them. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, go ahead, Carlos, and give me your full name, date of birth, and where you were born. CARLOS VASQUEZ: I’m Carlos [Raymundo?] Vasquez, born in Ciudad Juárez, Mexico. August 15, 1953. JJ: Oh. Okay, Carlos, if you could give me your name, date of birth, and where you were born, again. CV: Name’s Carlos Raymundo Vasquez. Arrollo -- that’s my mom’s name, maiden name. So they do it in Mexico, Carlos Raymundo Arrollo Vasquez. I was born in Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua. JJ: Chihuahua? CV: Chihuahua, yep. August 15, 1953. My mom told me a story about me being born on the 15th, that they were late [00:01:00] for something and she didn’t wanna have to pay whatever, and they put down the 31st. That’s the story she gave me. So on my ID, when I was born, they put down the 31st. JJ: But you were born -- CV: But I celebrate the 15th with her from when I was little. JJ: But she tells you it was the 15th? CV: She tells me the 15th. So I went with that story, what she told me before. Had nothing to do with whatever, but it was just the story that she told me about it. That’s the way we celebrated all my life. JJ: Okay. So what was Ciudad Juárez like? Did you live there for a while? 1 �CV: No, I was too little to remember anything. When I came here, I spoke Spanish. JJ: What year was that? CV: We crossed over in ’57. JJ: What do you mean, you crossed over? What was that? CV: Well, slowly, because we started from [00:02:00] Durango, where my dad’s from, and Villa Unión, where my mom’s from, a little town outside of that. So little by little, we came, going toward the border. It took a few years to get there. My dad, he was a musician, besides working, so he would do side jobs and stuff like that, make more money. JJ: What kind of music? I mean, what did he play? CV: Well, then there’s another story that they told me. My dad would play for some funerals. They had, like, the kids got sick and something that they were having -a lot of them were passing away for some reason, some disease or something, and he was playing for funerals. JJ: What’s your dad’s name? CV: Jesus. JJ: Jesus? CV: Jesus Cisneros Vasquez. JJ: Okay, and your mom’s name? CV: Carmen Arrollo Vasquez. JJ: Did you have any brothers and sisters? CV: [00:03:00] Six other brothers and two sisters. JJ: What were their names? 2 �CV: My oldest brother was Beto -- Albert, Alberto -- and then after, that’d be Luis. My sister, Yola. Jesus. Pedro. Eduardo. Myself, Carlos. And then my sister, Julia. But she was the only one that was born in the United States. She was born after we came over in El Paso, Texas, across from Juárez. So I was too young to remember a lot of that stuff, like I said. I talked with my older sister and my brothers and that about it. They all went to school in Mexico. I was raised in Detroit. My uncle -- JJ: You mean they stayed behind and you came? So a few came? CV: All of us came [00:04:00] at the same time, but -- JJ: You didn’t go to school. CV: No, I was too young. JJ: Oh, you’re the youngest. CV: Yeah, I was the youngest. There’s seven of us in the boys, and I was the youngest seventh son. So I was I think three or four. You figure ’53 to ’57, when we crossed. JJ: So you started in ’53, trying to get to the border? CV: I was born in Juárez, so we were already there. So we crossed over. My sister was born a year later or two years later, when we came over to El Paso. JJ: And when you say it took a long time, you mean you lived in each town as you went up? CV: No. Well, what from they tell me, it took a little bit, a few years to get over, because of all the paperwork back then, because it was a large family. And my uncle brought my dad over here when he was a kid, and there’s pictures of them 3 �when they would be farming, picking, you know? [00:05:00] From what they told me, he was up in Utah, but they went to Indiana, when she told them about Michigan, which is why we came to Michigan, because of my Tío Callito, my dad’s uncle. He’s the one that brought us here. JJ: So you were going to farm? CV: They were. JJ: They were. CV: They were, ’cause my dad, he was young in the picture with my uncle when he came over here when he was a kid. And he went back to Mexico, and that was his dream, was to bring his family over here and raise them in the United States. A lot of my relatives stayed in Juárez. Some of them crossed over, raised families in El Paso, Texas. And other parts of my cousins and aunts went to California. JJ: But you keep saying crossed over. What do you mean? CV: They were from Mexico. JJ: By plane? CV: No, no, no, just crossed the border, from Juárez [00:06:00] to El Paso. That’s the border. It’s like Detroit, Canada, same thing, you know? But we were the only family that came up here, my uncle’s family and us, at that time. My other cousins, them and my aunts, they all went to California, different parts of California. The other ones stayed in El Paso. I basically spoke Spanish when I came here, but I entered kindergarten and first grade. Then I lost it. I just started 4 �talking with everybody from the United States and picking up the way they speak. I used to come home -JJ: So you remember Detroit. That was the main thing. CV: Main thing, yep. JJ: You don’t remember anything about Mexico? Nothing? CV: Nothing at all. JJ: Nothing about Mexico. CV: Nope. I couldn’t even tell you about El Paso [00:07:00] then at that time, you know. The way it went was just growing up in Detroit. JJ: Okay, so you’re in Detroit. What part of Detroit? CV: When we came, we came over to -- this is from what they tell me -- the I-75 freeway still wasn’t built. So they used to have a theater over there. We supposedly lived above the theater, and then moved over to Labrosse, which is Corktown over by Tiger Stadium. JJ: Corktown? CV: That’s what they call it. Irish community that was there. JJ: So when you came, there was an Irish community? CV: They were mixed. Irish, Maltese, Polish. Not that many Italians, but it was a strong community. That was the southwest side of Detroit. That’s where we grew up. That whole community over there is mostly Latino, [00:08:00] but it’s mixed. JJ: Now? Now it’s Latino? 5 �CV: No, from what I remember from back then. But we were one of the first families there -- JJ: What year was this, about? CV: Early ’60s. I remember that. JJ: So all this other time, you were in Texas and the other places? I mean, you got to Detroit in the ’60s. CV: Yep, ’57, yeah. All I remember was from the pictures that we have is -- JJ: So how old were you then? How old were you then? CV: That would be four or five years old. First school I went to was Casa Maria. Okay, that’s a preschool. I graduated from it. They’ve got a photo of me, you know. Zoology. I was supposed to work with animals. That was the diploma they gave me. But that’s still there. It’s on Trumbull right down the street from Tiger Stadium. But it was just a little school [00:09:00] for the kids before they went into kindergarten. Then they had a school down the street called D. Holton, which was there on Trumbull, right off of Trumbull. But it’s gone, you know. They put another building. A lot of the buildings that we grew up in are gone now. They’ve been replaced with other things. But it’s still that area, right by Tiger Stadium, Labrosse. That’s where we started. There was a couple other families that I remember throughout my life that we grew up with. The Rodriguezes, the Ocegetas. They came from different parts of Mexico. JJ: Rodriguez? CV: Yeah. JJ: And what other family? 6 �CV: Ocegeta. JJ: Ocegeta? CV: Yeah, they were around our street and -- JJ: And your street you said was what? CV: Yeah, Labrosse, right. That’s right down the street from Tiger Stadium. We used to sit on the porch and you could hear the ballgames, and you could hear the noise and stuff like that. [00:10:00] We stayed in that community for -- it’s on the other side of what they would say, the Ambassador Bridge, okay? Because it’s divided Grand Boulevard. If anybody’s been to Detroit, the way that it’s built, they built Grand Boulevard like a horseshoe around the city. It would start from the west side and go all the way to the east side and end on Belle Island. So where we lived was the southwest side over on the other side of Ambassador Bridge on Grand Boulevard. And in the old days, that’s where all the rich -- not rich, but the autocar makers or whatever, the people that had money. There’ll all mansions on that street on West Grand Boulevard, as you go around the whole city. They’ve got another city called Outer Drive, which is built like a horseshoe around the city. They would have Woodward, which was the main street that came out of Detroit, [00:11:00] coming from downtown the river, which split the city. That was one side, the east side, and the other side, the west side. We grew up on the west side. JJ: So you were living with the Rodriguez and the other? CV: Ocegeta. JJ: And then you’re growing up with their kids and that? 7 �CV: Right. Their kids. Everybody back then had large families, you know. You had eight, nine kids, seven to eight kids. It didn’t matter. Everybody had large families. JJ: And this was a Mexican community? CV: Mainly. Well -- JJ: It was Irish, but then -- CV: Yeah, downtown. Downtown over by Tiger Stadium, yeah. JJ: That was Irish first, but then was changing? CV: It was changing at the time. When we came in, like I said, in the phone book, I remember seeing our last names, Vasquez. You would see maybe two, three Vazquez in the phone book back in [00:12:00] the early ’60s. As there progressed, more and more Latinos moved into the neighborhood. But as of our family, it was my uncle and, you know, my family. But we stayed on Labrosse ’til I remember going to Casa Maria, and then moving by Clark Park. JJ: Clark Park? CV: Yeah, that’s when we moved a little bit more west. JJ: Is that named after somebody, Clark? CV: I was doing a little research on it and it was just a park that had something to do with somebody in the early ’20s or something. But it was a nice park back then. They used to use it for -- I don’t know if you remember in the old days, they’d have the nice, big picnics and stuff like that. JJ: So it was a picnic area. CV: Right, back then. 8 �JJ: Is it a pretty big park? CV: Clark Park’s about a mile. We used to walk around it or whatever. One mile from -- JJ: Is it flat? A lot of trees? CV: Yeah, [00:13:00] a lot of trees. In the middle of the city, you know, but when we moved over there, I went to first grade. All the -- JJ: What school? What school? CV: Maybury. All the schools were around Clark Park. So if you went to Maybury, you went to grade school one through six. You would cross the park and go to junior high, which is Amelia Earhart. That was up to seventh to ninth grade. And then down the street, across from Clark Park, was Western High School, and that was a high school. So you didn’t really leave the neighborhood when you went to school. But they had a lot of Catholic schools there where the majority different families that could afford it would go to Catholic school. JJ: Did a lot of the Mexican kids go? CV: Right. JJ: They did go to -- CV: Yep. Yep. Like I said, some families had the money. They made good money back then. And some families, they went to the public schools. JJ: Well, where was your father working [00:14:00] at that time? CV: From what I remember, they said my dad worked for McLeod Steel for a while. JJ: A steel company? 9 �CV: And he had an injury or something, and that’s how he collected from them for some reason. Then we bought a house on 10th Street. JJ: So were there steel mills there, a lot of them? CV: Oh, yeah, big. Ford Motor Company, that’s that neighborhood. The whole car industry was all around our neighborhood. JJ: And it’s based in steel? CV: Yep. JJ: Okay, I didn’t think about that at the time. CV: Yeah, that whole neighborhood’s built around the cars. Everybody worked at Ford, Chrysler, or GM, whatever. My brothers, they worked for them companies. And it was all around us, so, like, I remember when I was a kid growing up, it’s all you see, the semis going by with cars, new cars going from over here, from Fleetwood, from Cadillacs on Clark Street, going down to Fort Street. Fleetwood, and then they had Ternstedt, [00:10:00] I think it was. GM’s on Fort Street. So the whole neighborhood was kind of like when you grew up, you graduated, you went to work for the auto industry, unless you went to college. Then you went somewhere else. JJ: So like a working class neighborhood, you said? CV: Very hard, yeah. JJ: But a pretty good job, I mean, working for -- CV: For the time, considering these times, it was great, you know, because now my kids, it’s hard for them to find a job unless they graduated, keep going college and stuff. 10 �JJ: So at that time, it was pretty good. I mean, everybody was working. CV: My brother -- JJ: So the community was a working class Mexican community. It went to a Mexican community? CV: Yeah. JJ: Mainly Mexican. CV: Mainly. You know, it’s been mixed, you know what I mean? And Detroit, if you’ve ever been to Detroit, that’s the only side of town where the Latinos work. JJ: Southwest side? CV: Southwest side of Detroit. JJ: That’s [00:16:00] the only side of town they’re at? CV: Yeah, the majority. Still, you can find them here or there, one or two, but not like you would. It was considered a barrio back then. It started from West Vernor, which is a street, one of the main streets. Fort Street, Michigan Avenue, Woodmere, and back over by downtown, Trumbull. That whole area, it’s like a square area by the Ambassador Bridge. Yep, they have a church, one of the oldest churches over there. My brothers still work there, Sainte Anne’s. And that’s right there, right off 18th Street. Bagley was a main street. They got Mexican town, which is right now -- JJ: They’ve got a Mexican town? CV: Yeah, because of the restaurants. They built a lot of restaurants around there. But Bagley was a main street where a lot of Latinos lived at that [00:17:00] time. Twenty-fourth, 18th Street, all that area was all families. [Everybody?] [Solanos?]. 11 �I could go on with different families, but I don’t remember all of ’em. I had older brothers that hung out with different people in the neighborhood. JJ: So I mean, you said the families. So one of your brothers hanging around with one family and another with another family? CV: No, they knew us because there were so many brothers. So everybody knew everybody, you know. By the time I got to high school or got to school, junior high and that, they already knew who I was because of my brothers. Everybody went through the school. JJ: So this was like, when you say [barrio?], you’re talking about everybody (inaudible)? CV: Right. JJ: Not like -- CV: No, it was a community. It’s a tight community over there, southwest side of Detroit. Like I said, you go -- JJ: What made it tight? What made it [00:18:00] a tight community? CV: Because I think being Catholic. You know, the churches, okay? That was the main thing back then. You know, I know that’s what drew my dad and my mom over there in that area where we lived in Clark Park. Holy Redeemer was over there. That was one of the main churches. But Sainte Anne’s was the older church, like I said. When we first came from Mexico, it was the old part of the neighborhood, which was over by Bagley and the Ambassador Bridge. So when we made that move from Labrosse over to Clark Park, you know, that was newer to us. So it got a little more mixed. And gradually as you got towards the end of 12 �the neighborhood, which is Woodmere Cemetery -- that’s over by Dearborn, which has the largest Arab community in the country. So we grew up with Arabs on the other side. JJ: [00:19:00] So you were connected to the Arabs on one side. CV: Oh, yeah, at the end of Detroit on the other side. They came in a little later, but they grew strong, real big, that community. They bought a lot of businesses. They liked to make money on the party stores and stuff like that. JJ: Was there any friction with them? CV: No, not really. It was just they were doing what they did, ’cause as I said, everybody had jobs back then. Everybody made good money back in the ’60s. JJ: So nobody cared about friction. CV: No, not like nowadays. Nowadays, you go down there, the neighborhood’s a little rougher than it was when I grew up. You could stay out late, you know. We didn’t have no electronics like they do now, these computers, so everybody was running around on the streets ’til about ten o’clock at night. JJ: And these are kids, right? CV: [00:20:00] Right. JJ: About what age? CV: You know, they can be about 7 years old up to 10. They would let them stay out, as long as they were in front of their house running around. JJ: When you were 7 and 10 years old, you were kind of running around? CV: In that area around my house. JJ: And there were no problems? 13 �CV: Not like nowadays. The gangs, I would say back then, were like the gangs from West Side Story, you know what I mean? They had the Bagley Boys and the Stilettos. JJ: The Bagley Boys? CV: Yeah. JJ: Was the group -- were they Mexican? CV: Yeah, they were Latino. They could be mixed, you know. JJ: So what were (inaudible)? CV: Well, there weren’t that many, like I say, like now. But the thing about them gangs back then was that they were more kind of like where you grew up in Chicago. You know, you had your own streets, you know what I mean? [00:21:00] But it wasn’t as tight of Chicago because of the way Chicago was built. The houses were real tight over there in Chicago, and you go over there in Detroit, they’re just a little more suburban, however you like. ’Cause I’ve been to Chicago and like on the outside outskirts, you know, it was more like that. JJ: But you guys had a lot of killers, though. (laughs) Detroit was known for that. CV: Detroit had its mafia, but you know, that’s a whole ’nother -- JJ: So Detroit had a mafia. CV: Yeah, that’s a whole ’nother story. That was on the east side, Hastings Street over down by [Stow Buoy crash?]. We lived on the southwest side. Detroit was like that back in the early ’20s, you know, ’30s with Al Capone and them guys, because Capone used to go from Chicago, cross over, come over, and deal with these guys over here in Michigan. 14 �JJ: Okay, [00:22:00] so they had a history of the mafia, like Chicago. CV: Right. JJ: But when you were growing up, were they still on the east side? CV: More or less. I’d say yeah. You know, if they were, I was too young to know that much of it. It was a large Black community. That was the main thing over there in Detroit. The early ’60s, I remember, was Motown. The music industry was strong for them back then. JJ: And how did that affect you, the Motown music? CV: Everybody driving in hot rods. You know, everybody had fast cars back then, cruising [Glazier?], Woodward, big streets, just like the older movies in the ’50s. They had their little (audio cuts out) you know, stuff like that where they would hang out. JJ: With those fountain drinks. CV: Right, yeah. JJ: So they had it there too. CV: They had it, yep. JJ: Like, a lot of the cities (inaudible). But, I mean, it was bigger because, I mean, [00:23:00] Motown came from Detroit, so it was a bigger influence or no? CV: As far as what? JJ: What music did you like at that time? CV: That’s the way we grew up. We grew up with Black music, you know. We used to listen to the old DJs from Philly, different cities. Chicago. Me and my brother Pedro would stay up. We didn’t watch that much TV. It was a lot of radio. 15 �Everybody had transistor radios back then, carried one in your pocket or whatever. Then we had a radio in the room. Like in the early ’60s, I remember listening to Muhammad Ali fight, but he was Cassius Clay back in the early days. Then I’d stay up and watch boxing with my dad. My family watched a lot of boxing in the early days. But we didn’t start watching TV that much, you know, like I said, because we’d be running around at night, [00:24:00] playing around. And then later on, maybe I’d watch it with my dad. JJ: You were running around [in that?] (inaudible). CV: Running around like kids do, playing stickball, kick the can, hide and seek, you know. Just being a kid. Nowadays they don’t do that. Nowadays they sit in front of a TV and they play with their games, Xbox and the other things. They don’t branch out as much as they used to. They’ve got their sports, the ones that play sports, but not like before. But yeah, that community, the music had a big effect on the way people grew up. You know, the dances and stuff like that. My dad was a musician and I remember us going -- they had boats. They called them Boblo boats. They used to take you to this island, which was downriver. It was Canadian-owned, but you can go. [00:25:00] It was like going to Cedar Point, and everybody would get on the Boblo boat, take it down the river, go down there, and they had music on the boat. They’d have bands. They’d dance. They had two or three floors on the deck, you know. On the 4th of July was Mexican Boblo, so my dad would go play on the island. He was a musician, so we would go with him. I remember that. JJ: What did he play? 16 �CV: My dad played saxophone when he was here, but he could play guitar, sax, a little bit of everything. He was pretty good. But he read. I learned later, but you know, I learned by ear. Nineteen seventy-one, I think, I started playing. But he played, like I said, all his life. He played with different bands and stuff besides working. He ended up working when we were on [McKent?] Street at a graphite company, you know. That was his last job that he worked. [00:26:00] He worked there all the way. Small company in the neighborhood off Green, one of the streets down there. JJ: What about your mom? What did she do? CV: She stayed home. Back then, the moms didn’t go out and work. You know, they stayed home with the family and stuff. She mainly wanted to learn how to speak English. That was real hard for her, so she took classes at Holy Redeemer. I’d walk her to school every once and a while and she would take a couple classes, learn how to speak, write, you know, read English. Everybody on her side of the family were more or less professional people in Mexico -- doctors, nurses, lawyers, and stuff like that. So they went to school. My dad was a working family. They worked over there. JJ: So your dad, basically his family was more -- CV: Work-oriented. JJ: Just work-oriented? CV: [00:27:00] Yeah. JJ: Some of them worked in the fields too, you said. 17 �CV: Right. Well, that’s where they would start. But like I said, I don’t remember that much history of them in Texas. My brothers had a little more knowledge of what went on over there. But they all went to school in Mexico. There’s pictures of my brothers in different grades. So they grew up over there speaking Spanish real good, and when they came over here, they kept it. JJ: But your mom, her family was more professional? CV: Well, some of ’em. Not all of ’em. But yeah, they went to school. But when she got here, you know, she stayed at home most of the time, cooking and watching the house. JJ: She also went to the church. CV: Go to church. Them days, we’d go to church quite a bit. JJ: So what did your brothers do? (inaudible), what kind of work did they start doing? CV: What? JJ: In other words, what kind of work did they start doing? [00:28:00] Your brothers. ’Cause they’re older, right? CV: Well, what was weird about it was that I was the youngest brother, so I had two older brothers -- well, three, Lalo, Pedro, and Jesse, which were a few years older than me. So they were more my age. And then the other ones were way older -- Beto, Hector, and Luis. Them guys, I remember Hector went to Chicago. He took off in the early ’60s. He went to take classes to learn how to weld, so he’d become a welder. That’s what he did all his life. JJ: And he lived in Chicago? 18 �CV: No, he went over there for a while. He got the training and everything over there and then he came back. And he was gone, so you know, they -- JJ: Did he have any family relatives there? CV: No. Well, yeah, we did. You know, we had relatives in where your sister’s stays. JJ: In Aurora? CV: Aurora. I remember going to Aurora [00:29:00] in ’67, ’68. Yeah. You know, we’d go to -- JJ: Actually I was living there then. CV: And we were going on picnics over there in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. I remember going there ’cause, yeah, we had relatives over there in the Chicago area. They had moved. But my dad’s big thing when people come from Mexico was to bring them here and take them to Niagara Falls. So we would drive through Canada, go to Niagara Falls, and show them the falls and everything. He liked to do that. JJ: Oh, he liked Niagara Falls? CV: Yeah, which is cool because they don’t have that all over. Michigan’s got a lot of water, you know, more than other states, a lot more stuff to do. We never ventured on this side of the state, Grand Rapids area over here. You know, it was always on the east side of the state. That’s where we did stuff. JJ: ’Cause Grand Rapids is where you’re living today. CV: Yeah, I came here in ’93. JJ: [00:30:00] Nineteen ninety-three? CV: Yep. It was December 21st, 1993. Yep. 19 �JJ: Okay. Well, we’ll get back to Grand Rapids. So your brothers, one of them went to Chicago. What about the other ones? CV: Well, my brother Albert -- which is the oldest -- he was working different type of jobs, but he hurt his back. So he went into buffing and polishing. Somehow he ended up in that, and that’s what I do now. I worked at a brewery for 14 years, Stroh Brewery, and when I left -- JJ: This is you. You’re the one working there. CV: Yeah, but he got me into what I’m doing now. But I’ll go back to that. Yeah, but the other brothers, I remember them working for A&P. Luis and Hector welded, and then Beto did the buffing and polishing. And then [00:31:00] my brother Jesse and Luis both enlisted to Vietnam in the early ’60s, you know, so they went over there and they fought. JJ: They wanted to go? CV: Yeah. Well, the story I got from Jesse was that him and Mickey Baker went out and got drunk and signed up, and Mickey didn’t sign, and he ended up going and Mickey didn’t. You know how when you’re young, you do crazy stuff. But he did wanna go. They wanted to do something, you know, for the country, and then also they wanted to -- what you say? -- patriotic or whatever, you know. But he was working at Cadillac right after he got out of school. He was in high school, graduated, and he went to Cadillac, which is down the street, which is a great job. But then he went to Vietnam, or he joined the service, ended up in Vietnam. Luis, the same way. [00:32:00] They were both gone around the same time. And he came back in 1968. I think he got out then. 20 �JJ: He got out of the Army service? CV: He served his three years, three and a half years, whatever they did, you know. JJ: Okay. So then he came back. Did he get a good job? CV: No, he changed because Vietnam changes everybody, you know that. There’s a lot of drugs over there. He wasn’t into the drugs and stuff, but it just changed his whole -- the whole United States changed in 1968 and 1969. It affected a lot of people, that war. JJ: He didn’t come back that patriotic? CV: Well, he took off to California, you know, so he went out there. My cousin’s out there in East LA. He stayed with them. That’s where he met his wife, up there in [Bakersville?]. You know, he didn’t get married until later on, but he met her up there. He lives [00:33:00] in New Mexico. He’s the one that was a truck driver for a while, you know. But yeah, he went to ’Nam, both of them, and then Lalo worked at Chrysler. And my brother Pedro, he’s the one that went to Stroh Brewery. He’s the one that got me into Stroh. I got in there when I was 17 years old, 18. Yeah, I was 18, 17, 18 years old when I got in there. I got married right away. JJ: So how long did you work at Stroh? CV: Fourteen years, until they closed. Fourteen and a half years, ’til ’84. Then they shut it down. JJ: And what kind of work did you do there? What were you doing there? CV: Easy work, you know. Bottles get jammed on the line in the pasteurizer. I was a relief man later on, give everybody breaks. But anything to do with the bottling 21 �and the packaging, that’s what area -- I ran the machines. They got a Coca-Cola plant. I could’ve got a job [00:34:00] here. But I didn’t wanna go back and doing what I did before. You know, so I wanted to try something new, and that’s when my brother showed me how to buff and polish when I left there ’cause I didn’t go to school. I should’a went to school. JJ: You didn’t go to school at all? What do you mean? CV: Well, I got married right away. Eleventh grade, I went up to there. JJ: So you went up to eleventh grade? CV: Yep, and then I just started working right away. JJ: So what high school did you go to? CV: I was in Western, like everybody else. JJ: Everybody else? Did that mean (inaudible)? CV: Yeah, that was as far as I got. JJ: And then after that, you dropped out? CV: My wife got pregnant. We got married. But I married her the following year, you know. So I went to work. It was funny because I went to work for the Detroit [Line?] Company, which makes steel. Line, they put inside the steel. I think I was 16 and a half years old, working there, and they had them -- you know them jacks that you use to break [00:35:00] cement? Well, they used them to break -they’ve gotta kiln, you know. They heat up the line in these ovens. Well, they shut ’em down and you’ve gotta climb in these little doors, and you take that thing and you’ve gotta hit it up against the wall. You’ve gotta hold it and break that stuff loose, I mean. I didn’t like that. Now, that’s 16, 17 years old, you know. 22 �Just too rough, the type of work for me at the time. I didn’t last. But I did that for, you know, maybe about three, four months. JJ: But eleventh, you almost graduated. CV: Right, but I never continued ’cause I got a good job at the brewery. They paid what the auto industry paid. We were making, you know, the same type of money they were back then at Stroh, and it was a real simple job. There was nothing really -- you couldn’t do if you know how to drive a hi-lo, how to package, run the machines, and stuff like that. [00:36:00] It wasn’t automated like Budweiser and them other companies. That’s why they paid it out. It took too many people to operate that company at the time. JJ: So that was a good job. CV: Oh, yeah. JJ: You didn’t need to go to school to get it. You already had it. CV: I messed up that way. JJ: But you already had a good job. CV: Right. That’s what I’m saying. Nowadays, it’s rough with kids because you can’t walk out of school and walk into a good job. Not no more. You need school, you know? You’ve gotta have that diploma in order to move ahead. Let me see, Lalo. But, yeah, Pedro got me in there, and then my sister Julia, she worked as an insurance claim adjuster. So she ended up doing that. My sister Yola, she ended up working for the -- ’cause she was bilingual at the time. It was early bilingual (inaudible). JJ: Now, were you bilingual [00:37:00] [then?]? 23 �CV: No. JJ: You were bilingual later? You’re bilingual now. CV: I learned how to speak Spanish here in Grand Rapids. My Spanish was real bad. I boycotted it for some reason when I was young. You know, when you’re a hippie in the early days, you wanna hang out with -- JJ: You were a hippie? CV: Oh, yeah, big time. Yeah. Yeah, yep. JJ: Okay. CV: You know, that’s why I played guitar. I went into the music. I liked the atmosphere, you know, the music. I wish I would’ve learned the way my dad would’ve taught me back then. I would know more. But now when I listen to the songs that [Patrick was pulling down there?], all them trios and stuff, you know, it’s all great music, all the stuff that the guys did back then. But I got into it, like I said, in the ’70s, but everything changed in ’68, ’69. The neighborhood changed. JJ: How did the [00:38:00] neighborhood change? CV: ’Cause everything was Motown. Everything was Black. Everything. The music. Everybody dressed up. And once ’69 came, everybody started wearing jeans. They loosened up, you know, let their hair grow, hanging out. JJ: You had at that time? CV: But I was married, you know. I got married right away and I was working. My friends, a lot of them were on the corner. I’d go home to my family, you know what I mean? JJ: Okay, now, all your friends were on the corner? 24 �CV: Well, the majority of them. JJ: And when you say on the corner, what do you mean? CV: From my neighborhood, it’s like that’s where everybody would hang out. JJ: What street? CV: Vernor. Clark Park. JJ: They would just be hanging out on the corners? CV: Well, there were certain corners. Toledo and Junction. Everybody had their own little corners where people would just meet and just talk, you know, hang out. JJ: And they drank? CV: [00:39:00] Oh, yeah, and they’d go into Clark Park, that kind of thing, different parks in areas. JJ: Drugs? CV: Drugs was big time in Detroit back then. A lot of heroin. Yeah, there were a lot of heroin users back then in the neighborhood. A lot of overdoses. JJ: A lot of overdoses were going on at that time? CV: Yep. JJ: ’Cause this was the Vietnam War era. CV: A lot of those guys -- like, I met this guy, Jerry Manchaka, at Stroh. He’d come back from ’Nam, and another guy, Bud. They were telling me stories on how they got hooked over there in Vietnam. They would smoke heroin, you know. I didn’t do it. That was one drug I didn’t mess with. You know, I ventured into other stuff, but like I said, I was always with my family. So as long as I had my job, that kept me straight. 25 �JJ: You mentioned (inaudible). CV: I tried to smoke weed. You know, drank wine. I didn’t drink beer. I worked in the brewery, started at 17. I didn’t have a beer until I was 25. [00:40:00] Them guys that sits there, you have free beer in the lunch room, you know, at Stroh. It was part of the contract. JJ: It was part of the job, right? CV: A lot of them guys became alcoholics. JJ: But you didn’t drink beer at that time. CV: No. JJ: So you drank wine. CV: Smoke weed and drank wine. JJ: You drank wine at that time. A lot of people in the neighborhood drank wine too. So that was just common. CV: That was just the routine, the way we hung out. JJ: In Chicago, they drank Richards. CV: Ripple? You know, Thunderbird, Night Train, whatever. JJ: Is that the kind of wine you were talking about? CV: Yeah. JJ: High-class wine. CV: I’d say I ventured into a little Spumoni, you know. Nah, it’s just neighborhood stuff over there. You know how it is when you go up. My brothers, my brother Pedro, you know, he hung out on the streets a little more -- him and Lala -- a little more. It wasn’t what I did, because they didn’t get married. He didn’t get married 26 �’til [00:41:00] later, you know. But everybody grew up in the same neighborhood. I left there in, oh -- Nick was born -- ’74, ’75. My brother died. Overdose. My brother Pedro. JJ: Of heroin? CV: No, he had valiums and some other drugs when he was drinking, and they said he fell asleep and, you know, he died in his sleep. But that was in 1975. So it was about the time I left the neighborhood. I moved outside of Detroit. It was over by Dearborn Heights area. That’s where I bought a house later on, around that area. But he was -- out of any of my brothers on the street, I would say he stayed right there on Toledo and Junction. They had a bar right there and them guys would all hang out right there. But he was married. You know, he had his family. JJ: You know, you’re seeing all your friends [00:42:00] going to drugs and all that. What was your thinking? I mean, you know, why didn’t you go into it? How did you look at them? CV: What do you mean? JJ: In other words, you must’ve said, these guys are stupid, or something. I mean, how did you look at them? CV: No, a lot of them were making money on the side. Everybody always made money. I didn’t like that. I just didn’t like the atmosphere. JJ: You just didn’t like? You just said, I’m not playing? CV: I didn’t like the traffic because I have kids. You know, I’d bring them over to the house, but it’s just when you’re married, it’s a different story. Some people don’t 27 �care. But like I said, I’d hang out with certain people, and plus I was in a band. There was drugs around all the time. You know, but something told me about it, not to get too crazy. Later on, I did, in the ’80s. But that was stupid. JJ: Yeah, you fought it [00:43:00] for a while. You didn’t -- CV: No, that’s how I ended up over ’80s -- well, the ’80s, ’90s, early ’90s when I ended up over in the rehab. That got me over here in Grand Rapids, you know, drinking and doing drugs. But the early part, like when we were raising my kids, I was kind of just maintaining. I always knew I had to get up at 6:00 in the morning and go to work. Even though I hung out at a bar, played music at night. I’d be there ’til 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. I was the one that ran the band, made sure the equipment was put away and everything. I’d walk in the house about 3:30. I have to get up at 6:00. But it was extra money. JJ: So you were like the band leader, then. CV: Right. JJ: And you guys played what kind of music? CV: Rock and roll. JJ: Rock and roll? CV: Yep, Top 40. But it was rough back then because in my neighborhood, they didn’t accept it. JJ: What do you mean? CV: Well, there was nothing but Mexican bands. You know, Latino music. And all the bars we played, you know, we’d have to ask [00:44:00] the bar owner if we could play this type of music. I mean, they had Santana, you know, Mongo 28 �Santamaría, and different bands like that. But when you walked in the neighborhood in Detroit at that time, it was all -JJ: You’re talking about rock and roll. CV: Yeah, like we’d be playing some Bob Seger, you know? And then these guys -this is in the [Abara?] Lounge. And right after we get done, a Tex Mex music would go up or a Mexican band would go up there and start playing. We played a lot of talent shows over there. But we ventured up out of that neighborhood, go downriver. That’s where we ended up most of the time, playing. JJ: Downriver? CV: Yeah. Detroit’s [wine?] area. You know, Detroit, the southwest side of Detroit, you’ve got Allen Park, Lincoln Park, Southgate. There’s a lot of communities going downriver. Detroit runs -- coming from Lake Erie, you know, coming from that area. So a lot of communities were going that way. [00:45:00] I hung around the (audio cuts out). They’re close-knit, the music industry over there for them guys. It was hard to get a job over there for us. But we did all right. I mean, I had fun. I made money. You know, that was the main thing I was doing. I learned how to play, yeah. But you know, you were saying about the music. Back then in the early ’70s, that changed everybody. Like I said, ’68, ’69 was just the music, Vietnam, the whole thing. You guys were doing the same thing over there in Chicago, but over here, I remember going downtown ’cause Downtown Detroit was happening back then. We had Kennedy Square, which was right there in the middle, and they’d have a lot of events going on. The Hare Krishna would be out there and the Black Panthers. [00:46:00] You always had to go 29 �through them in order to get into the store. They’re gonna hand you a pamphlet and they’re gonna talk to you, and they’re gonna try and sell you something or they’re gonna try and recruit you, you know. Not that much Hare Krishna, but the Black Panthers were real good at that. JJ: Trying to recruit? CV: Talked to different people. Talked to them about what their cause, you know? JJ: What’d you think about the Hare Krishna and the Black Panthers? CV: Black Panthers, I liked them guys, you know, because I liked the way they talked. They knew a little bit more. The Hare Krishna were into some type of religion or a belief that I really wasn’t into. JJ: But you could understand a little bit about the Black Panthers, you were saying? CV: Back then yeah. JJ: But you didn’t agree with them. CV: I didn’t disagree with them because I was a minority. But they stuck together. To me, they were badass because they were tight. You know, you see [00:47:00] four Black guys dressed in leather all walking, strutting down the street real strong. That was unity. Them guys, they showed it back then. JJ: Were you familiar with any other groups? CV: They had Brown Panthers in the high school, in the neighborhood. I knew a few guys that were into that. JJ: The Brown Panthers or Brown Berets? CV: Brown Berets. Yeah. Yeah, Brown Berets. JJ: Okay, they had Brown Berets in (inaudible), you were saying? 30 �CV: Yeah, a couple guys, you know. But like I said, I was into music. I’d be there like anybody else, listening to what they had to talk about, stuff like that. But my main thing was that they were for their cause, you know what I mean? And I was into something else, which only drove me away. Maybe if I was single at the time, you know, and I wasn’t into music, I might’ve did something. My son Benny does that now. He’s strong in the community [00:48:00] on the southwest side of Detroit right now. But they were all over, you know? Everywhere you went downtown, you ran into ’em ’cause they had Hudson’s, Crowley’s, Woolworth’s, you know, different stores you had to go shop in. We didn’t have malls. JJ: And the Panthers were there? CV: Outside. You know, outside on the corner. If you crossed at the light, they would be there. JJ: What about the Brown Berets? Were they anywhere? CV: Not as bad. Not as much. But they would be there at Kennedy Square. You’d see different groups. And then if you ventured off to Ann Arbor, where we went once in a while, they had the White Panthers. That was John Sinclair. Michael Lynn, I met him in 1969. He was from Highland Park and he was into that. He understood a little bit more. He was a little bit older, you know, than I was. But he was into that. So he would always call me. “Hey, they’re gonna have a speech over here. Let’s go.” [00:49:00] And I’d go with him because I liked the crowds, and I’d go with him. But he knew what they were talking about and he would follow them. JJ: And he was your friend, so you kind of just -- 31 �CV: What’s that? JJ: He was your friend, so you kinda hung out with him? CV: All the time. He became godfather to my daughter. Yeah, I met him. He used to sell shoes at Griggle’s, sporting goods. You know, later on, he sold clothes. But we were real tight back then. In ’69, I met him. JJ: Now, you’re growing up in the United States. I mean, you’re rooting for the United States, right? So how did (inaudible) these people are attacking the United States, the Panthers and the Brown Berets and all them. CV: They had a lot of -- JJ: Could you relate to some of them? CV: Well, they had a lot of problems with the police, you know, back then, them guys. [00:50:00] We used to have a thing called the Big Four. There were four cops that rolled in a car instead of one, and when they came around, they got out. Something was gonna happen. They don’t get out of the car unless they were gonna do, you know, some harm to somebody. I mean, they wouldn’t put you in the hospital, but they’d make sure they’d make a point. They had three or four cars like that that would cruise the neighborhood. You know, and we had the riots in ’67 over there off 12th Street. That shut down the community and the southwest side of Detroit. They had the National Guard in Clark Park. JJ: What do you mean? You had the riots in the Mexican [crew?]? CV: No, but it ventured off as far as Bagley and 18th. They had problems with, you know, people. The National Guard and some people in the neighborhood. JJ: Were they Mexican or Black? 32 �CV: Both. JJ: It was both Mexican and Black together? CV: Both there. They had a few. You know, but the main thing was downtown, over by Motown area, where the [00:51:00] old Motown is. They had problems. That’s where it started. But, you know, that was an event that -- ’67, yeah, like I said, right around then -- then after ’67, after the riots, a lot of white people started leaving Detroit. You know, they didn’t like the way things were moving. JJ: It was a white flight. CV: Somewhere around there. The northwest community, you know. I remember my brother, his brother-in-law, his mom lived out there towards Greenfield. You know, I didn’t venture much out of my neighborhood. There was an Irish family, the Sullivans, that moved to Dearborn Heights when I was a kid, and I took a bus trip out there one time. That was my first time in the suburbs, you know. [00:52:00] It changed. At that time, it changed (inaudible). But my family, like I said, they stayed in that neighborhood for quite a while. I was one of the first ones to leave the neighborhood. JJ: It changed a lot (inaudible)? CV: As far as drugs, as far as jobs, you know, as far as leaving the community and stuff like that, at that time, because everybody was moving. But certain families stayed, you know what I mean? JJ: Your father stayed? CV: What’s that? JJ: Your mother and father decided to stay. 33 �CV: No, they stayed. They stayed on Macken Street ’til -- it had to be late ’70s. Then they moved over. My brother had a house over there on Logan on the other side. It was still considered the southwest side of Detroit, but it was a little upside of the old neighborhood (inaudible). [00:53:00] And my mom and dad moved over that way, took over that house -- my brother Hector’s house. JJ: And your friends, as you were growing up, were they Mexican? White? CV: Mixed. JJ: Black? CV: Uh-huh. I hung around with a lot of people from Tennessee and Kentucky. I remember them guys. I learned a lot from them dudes, you know? Hillbillies, we called them back then. JJ: Was there a hillbilly community there? CV: Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. JJ: Good size? CV: Yeah, real strong. Yeah. JJ: We have that in Chicago. CV: They were Baptists, you know, a lot of them. JJ: They were what? CV: Baptists. Yeah, they weren’t Catholic, you know. But the mom and the dad were real strong, same way like my mom, dad. Like, once I started growing my hair and hanging out with these other people, they didn’t -- we had a bar down the street called Dixie Bell. [00:54:00] That was all country music, and all I remember as a kid was a lot of people fighting in the alleys when they come out 34 �of there because I used to have to go get food for my dad at Pete’s Steakhouse, and I have to go by there about 2:00 in the morning. Them guys would be coming out. But, yeah, they had Hank Williams. He cruised through there. Patsy Cline. You know, and it’s just a little bar on the corner, but it was there on Vernor, you know? They had a few of ’em, but they were in the community. We knew a lot of them. But they were in cars, hot rods. Back then, that’s what I remember. (inaudible) JJ: Now, there’s a stereotype that they didn’t like Mexicans or Blacks. CV: No. We got along. Maybe down South, but not in Detroit. The ones from Detroit, they were like anybody else. They were in the gangs on whatever corner. They would hang out with whoever. Back then, [00:55:00] it depends -you know how it is in the street -- how tough you were. That’s where you made your mark. If you could beat up so many people, people look up to you. That’s what it was back then. They didn’t shoot nobody. That stuff didn’t come on ’til later on. That’s when Detroit got bad, you know. These other gangs, the younger guys started carrying guns. And when I left in ’93, it was real bad. That’s when the Counts took over the neighborhood. JJ: Yeah. Counts? CV: The Latin Counts. JJ: The Latin Counts? CV: Yeah. A couple of guys from Chicago -- older guys -- started them. JJ: So Latin Counts from Chicago, moved to Detroit? 35 �CV: I don’t know if they were from Chicago, but two older guys started it. That’s what I remember. And them guys were over there on the southwest side. Then all of the sudden, different gangs started branching out in the neighborhood. JJ: So they became big, the Latin Counts? CV: In that neighborhood, yeah, at the time. JJ: In the southwest side. CV: Right, [00:56:00] at that time. JJ: And then what other Spanish gangs were there? CV: Well, I don’t know if they were Spanish, but you know, the Cash Flow. They had different gangs. Yeah, but they weren’t as big. They didn’t cause as much trouble. I just remember when we used to go to a party store, we’d go to pick up some beer and stuff, and we’d be sitting in the car and these kids are coming down the alley shooting. And they’re shooting at somebody going into the party store, and everybody’s running and hiding and taking off in their cars. But these are 12-year-old kids with guns. They didn’t care. They were recruited by the older guys to do what they had to do. A lot of it was drugs at that time, you know. By the time I left when I went into rehab, that’s when it started getting a little crazy. JJ: Okay, so you say you went to rehab. How old were you then? CV: Forty. JJ: You were about 40. CV: I quit drinking when I was 40. I’m gonna be 59 this year. [00:57:00] Right. I don’t know. It was just -- 36 �JJ: That’s 19 years? CV: I think so. Right, ’93? JJ: That you haven’t drank? Yeah. CV: Ninety-three. JJ: You say you were 40 when you quit. CV: Right, yeah. Yeah, that would be right. JJ: Okay. So what happened then? Were you married? Did you divorce? CV: Well, that was the thing. Our marriage fell apart. I had lost the house and moved back to the neighborhood and bought another house. I was buffing and polishing and working a lot of hours and drinking and staying at work and hanging out after work and stuff. Yeah, so I grew apart from my wife, you know. She got tired of it. She just said, you know, “You’d rather do what you’re doing. I’m 40. I wanna still do part of something with my life.” We separated. [00:58:00] It went from there. And then I’d say that was -- JJ: And you had how many kids? CV: Three. JJ: What are their names? CV: Antoinette, Dominic, and Benito. Benny wasn’t born until 10 years later, you know. We raised two of them, basically, and then when I went back to that community, that’s where I raised Ben for a little bit. I was -- JJ: And you weren’t married with anyone else before? CV: No. All my life. JJ: What was her name? 37 �CV: Linda. Linda, yeah. They were from the Albion area over by Jackson, her family. Her dad, he was real like a hustler. JJ: She’s Mexican too? CV: Yep. Yeah. Her dad, he used to sell tortillas, take ’em to Lansing, Jackson, you know. He’d drive in a van long before any of these other trucks were doing it. But I remember [00:59:00] helping him. It was ’69. That’s when I started going to her house. But he would drive all the way over to Ann Arbor and they had different stores. They’d make a road trip and deliver tortillas to the little, you know, Mexican stores that they had in that community. Lansing was a large community for that. Another thing I remember in the old days was the quinceañeras, you know? I remember a lot of them growing up. JJ: What is a quinceañera? CV: When a girl turns 15, 16, that’s womanhood for them. They get dressed like a wedding dress type thing and they throw it for them. They have a dance, that thing in the church. JJ: What do you remember? You said you remember the quinceañeras. CV: A lot of fights. (laughter) A lot of fights after. It’s cousins and cousins, but it was alcohol. I remember. And the dancing, [01:00:00] you know. I wasn’t into that that much, but it’s family. I had to go. But quinceañeras were a strong part of the Latin community back then, for Mexicans, I know that. JJ: So you’re talking about a community that was pretty solid with quinceañeras, with the church. CV: Right. 38 �JJ: Baseball teams and all of that? Soccer, I guess. Soccer. CV: That, I don’t remember that much. Like I said. But baseball, oh, yeah. JJ: Hardball or softball? CV: Hardball. Clark Park had their leagues. They’ve got a guy’s name over there on a plaque in Clark Park, Angel. I grew up with him and he worked with a lot of the kids over there in the community when they were playing ball and stuff. JJ: Yeah, were there any organizations (inaudible)? Do you remember? CV: La SED. JJ: La SED? CV: Yeah, that helped people get jobs and stuff like that. [01:01:00] My niece works for Western -- well, it’s not Western High School anymore. It’s International. I think they changed the name. She’s not probation, but when you skip school. JJ: Truant officer. CV: Truant officer. Christina. The last I remember, she was doing that. She was working for them. JJ: Didn’t your family get involved in the political events too or no? CV: I can’t vote. I’m not a citizen. JJ: Oh, you’re not a citizen? CV: No, I haven’t given them my citizenship from Mexico. JJ: Why is that? I mean, you’ve been here for how many years? CV: Oh, too many. I’ve paid my dues. It’s just something I don’t wanna do. Everybody bugs me about it, but my mom’s buried in Cuare. We buried her in 39 �’94. My dad’s buried [01:02:00] in Detroit, you know, but just something I don’t wanna do. JJ: But, I mean, why? Don’t you feel American? CV: You can’t get more American than the way I speak, but it was when I came here, I went into rehab. I wanted to go into HRP because it was Hispanic. I wanted to become more -- JJ: You wanna hear more about your culture? CV: There you go. Right. JJ: Hispanic Residential Program. CV: Right. JJ: That’s what HRP stands for? CV: Yeah. The lady who sent me there, she told me, you know, “You can go over there to the other place.” I said, “No, I wanna be with people that speak Spanish. I wanna learn how to speak Spanish better.” JJ: So HRP is the rehab, that you wanted to go there. CV: Project Rehab was the name of it. I was seeing an outpatient at the Latino Services in Detroit. She was a [crude?] lady, and it was around Christmastime. [01:03:00] She was leaving for vacation and I had seen her a couple times. She said, “I’m gonna go on vacation.” I told her I wanted to go somewhere where they could keep me from drinking because I told her, “I’ve got a jumbo in the car. As soon as I get done talking with you, I’m gonna go open the jumbo and just go back and drink. So I need to be locked up, basically, but I don’t wanna go to jail.” So she showed me a pamphlet of the Project Rehab, which was a pine tree with 40 �two people sitting out in the country. When I came over here, it’s over here on Eastern. It’s like Detroit, you know? It’s in the neighborhood. It’s in the city. But the good thing about it was I met a lot of people. It changed my life, you know. JJ: So you felt that you needed to be locked up. Why? CV: Because of the way I was drinking. Because I had lost my family, [01:04:00] you know. Just the change in my life at that time. I quit working, you know? Right toward the end of there, I quit working. JJ: So you were drinking before you lost your family. CV: Right. It got worse. It got worse. That’s what it did. My daughter told me, she said, “You’ve gotta do something.” So like I said, I turned 40. I said, “I’ve gotta do something to change it. I’ve gotta make a move.” So I went into the rehab. JJ: What was rehab like? CV: A learning process. JJ: When you first got here, what happened? CV: I got the DDTs. You know, I met Dave Perez. He was I guess a gang member from another part of the city, from this part of Grand Rapids. He’d come and pick me up at the bus station over here on Wealthy. I had not stopped drinking for so long that the bus ride, by the time I got here, [01:05:00] I had the DDTs, you know, the shakes. Real bad. So when a couple guys in there offered me a glass of apple juice, I couldn’t hold it with two hands, I was shaking so bad. They were laughing at me, you know. You’re gonna get cured in here, from that, so I liked their attitude. One was from New York and the other one was Lenny. He was 41 �from Muskegon. So it was just meeting other people and, you know, learning. Another learning process. I did a lot of reading. JJ: You did a lot of reading, but what were you reading? CV: The stuff that they had in there, the information, you know, about alcoholism, as much as I could. The 12-step program. I went from being part of to running meetings, [01:06:00] and ended up in the kitchen, cooking, ’cause I liked to cook. You know, just being part of the -- JJ: So everybody had a job or something? CV: In the rehab, in order for you to participate in everything, you had to do a chore, some type of chore. Either vacuum, clean the bathroom. You know, they gave you something to do, so it was a process that helped you. JJ: Now, this was a Hispanic program. CV: They had the Bolan. JJ: I mean, what type of Latinos did they have in there? CV: Huh? JJ: What type of Hispanics were there? CV: That was the thing. That’s the first time I met Cubans and Puerto Ricans. I hung around them before, but not as much as I did here. When I went on a trip to Detroit, I had to go see -- because my sister-in-law passed away. I picked up my guitar and I brought it back to the rehab, and then I started jamming with [01:07:00] these guys, playing Latino music, learning songs, making songs, singing, and playing in the room. So it kind of changed my attitude, you know. I wanted to be part of. 42 �JJ: It changed your attitude? Before you didn’t like it? CV: I was strictly into rock and roll, into (audio cuts out), you know, you name it. JJ: And now you’re more into the culture, your culture’s music, because rock and roll is part of the culture of Black. Latinos too that grew up with it. CV: Right, but in the ’70s, the music changed where -- JJ: I mean, Latinos grow up with whatever. CV: Well, I was talking to Patrick about that ’cause they had these bands, the (inaudible) All-Stars and the musicians from New York and stuff like that when salsa came out. These guys introduced me to all that. There’s Mexican music, which my sister and them, and all that [01:08:00] they know about. So I had to relearn all this stuff. It was new to me to get into it, let alone that. I had to learn Spanish. So that’s when I started hanging around with different people over here, and that’s all they spoke. So little by little, I picked it up. JJ: So you’re in the program. About how long were you in the program? CV: I went in in December 21st, I think it was, before Christmas, and I got out at the end of April, right before May. About four months, yeah. JJ: And then you go back to Detroit? CV: I was gonna go to Muskegon, you know, but I got talked out of it and stayed here. I got a room with Analita. You know, I think you helped me out over there. You knew her, or somebody did. Yeah, that was over there by the rehab, and I stayed with her and stayed in the [01:09:00] Grand Rapids area. So I’ve been here since. As soon as I got out of there, I got a job through Yolanda Wilson. She used to get people jobs that came out of jail, so she got me a job in the buffing 43 �and polishing. That’s where I ended up working in the McDonald’s industry. I worked there for about a year, and then I went to where I’m at now. I’ve been there since. I’ve been lucky. A lot of people change a lot of jobs. JJ: Did you continue with treatment after that? CV: Yeah, I participated with meetings, Latino support groups. JJ: And you were one of the leaders of that. CV: Right, helped out, (inaudible). JJ: It was something that we started, right? CV: Right. And that helped me out a lot because, you know -- JJ: That was, like, 12-step with -- they had music in it and everything else. CV: [01:10:00] It involved a little bit of everything. I liked it more than the other one because I went to meetings at these other places, to the Al-Anon Club, and I just feel alienated. Not saying nothing bad about these people, but it was like a clique and I wasn’t in the clique. I didn’t feel right. Yeah, I met one guy that knew Patrick and I ran into him later on in the years, and he says he was my sponsor. I said, “I don’t remember you.” He said, “Oh, yeah, I gave you my number,” and blah blah blah. “I’m sorry,” I said. I’m pretty good with faces, especially if you’re Latino. But, yeah, it was a learning process, that’s what it was for me, both learning how to stay away from alcohol -- you know, my problem was I hung out at the bars all the time. I shot pool, stayed with the guys. It didn’t matter. I’d stay late. [01:11:00] And then to come here and just quit, you know, a lot of people in Detroit, they didn’t think I would do it. They were just saying, “You’ll be back.” Which, you know, it’s hard because a lot of people, when I go back to 44 �Detroit, they’re in the same bar stool when I left. My sister, she still drinks. I’m not the type of person to preach to people a lot. I recommend. That’s as far as I go. I mean, I did what I did because, you know, I wanted to change my life. I wanted to do something positive. And then I got a son, Benny, which does the same thing. But he contributes to the community. Every day, he’s at Clark Park, working with the kids, teaching them how to breakdance and just to be part of, do different things. JJ: In fact, [01:12:00] he’s had a group or something? What’s the name of it? CV: Motor City Rockers. The Motor City Rockers, right. I think he had some pictures he posted up. They did Tiger Stadium a couple times. Them guys would play up there in front, you know. They do their breakdance and they’re pretty good. But the main thing about it is that they reach out to the kids. They start a really young age and they go all the way up. A lot of his cousins are part of what he does, you know, his mom and everybody else. My son Nick -- JJ: A lot of them, it keeps them out of the gangs too. CV: Yeah. Well, on the streets. I don’t know if the gangs are as strong as they were before, but it keeps them off the streets is the main thing. They’ve got other programs over there that other people run, but Benny’s just a small part. JJ: (inaudible)? CV: Huh? JJ: The place that Benny works with? CV: Benny works with [01:13:00] (inaudible) and [Lawndale?]. JJ: Okay, but he does work on the side. 45 �CV: Huh? JJ: He works out of the place too on his own? CV: His is now on his own. I don’t know if he’s still working for the same people, but they gave him the building where he would have classes and he would have them people come and (inaudible). JJ: Now, you said your other son. CV: Nick, he works on houses. A lot of the housing in Detroit is -- people left. There were a lot of houses being torn down and empty. Nick goes in. He works for a company that buys these houses and fixes them and sells them or rents them, whatever’s left. Detroit goes all the way to Eight Mile. It’s pretty big, you know, so a lot of it’s empty. Everybody left, like I told you. The communities, they were the first to leave, and then little by little, everybody else started leaving. But it ain’t like Grand Rapids where they fix [01:14:00] houses. They’ll burn a house because of some reason or they’ll level it. JJ: Now, I met you at HRP also, right? What was I doing there? CV: You were a counselor. You were working there. You weren’t one of my counselors right away, but we would go out to a lot of road trips with you, I remember. JJ: Because before, they didn’t want people to go out. CV: Right. And then the other thing was we had to go to certain churches. We wanted to go to a Catholic church, but they told us whatever type of church they went to. But any type of trip to Meijer’s or anything was good to get out of there. You know, it wasn’t a bad place to be. There’s food and somewhere to sleep. As 46 �long as you followed the rules, everything was okay. But they had a few guys that would venture out, sneak out, [01:15:00] and they’d end up doing bad. But it was a good setup. It’s changed a little bit from what it was. JJ: So the program was pretty good. I mean, we were able to go out to the different things. CV: Yeah, I helped a few people I would say down the line. I met a lot of people, and then they were in the same boat, what I was in. I went to AA for a while after that, but I quit going. I didn’t drink no more, but it’s just something I didn’t do no more. I quit going. JJ: You helped out with the Latino support group. CV: For a long time. JJ: That we founded, that we started. CV: Right, and then we did Lincoln Park thing. JJ: Camp. CV: The camp with the kids, the KO Club. JJ: So you got involved with me with the Lincoln Park camp. And what was that like? I know you did music and [01:16:00] some (inaudible). CV: Right. What I liked about it was it was something outside the city, you know. I really liked it over in the area by Youngs Lake, that little campground that we had. You had the music. You had the boats, you know, the little things. The campfires. It was just nice. I wish that happened all the time. I love when we hear -- this is like where I live right now, Grandville. It’s like by over there (inaudible). To see these kids running around here, and they have programs for ’em here. Don’t get 47 �me wrong. But it ain’t like that one where you would see a bunch of these kids taking off to a camp. The city’s changing, this city, since I’ve been here. JJ: Okay, so Lincoln Park Camp. Yeah, I think we had people come from Chicago also, right? CV: Yeah. JJ: So (inaudible) the purpose of the camp. [01:17:00] Do you remember? (inaudible) not clear. CV: Now I wouldn’t. But back then, I know we had to do with the Young Lords and the Lincoln Park Project, which was something that was going on over there with DePaul University and Chicago. I made a lot of road trips with you out to Denver for the 30th anniversary for something they had out there with the Latinos out there. JJ: Corky Gonzales. CV: Corky Gonzales. I got to see a lot of people. The guy in the Indians (inaudible), there were a lot of people at that meeting. It was an anniversary. But I have a poster still. But it was something different. That was ’94, ’95 -- I think ’95, somewhere around there, ’cause I went to Mexico and then I went to Denver in the same year twice. But it was nice because you [01:18:00] met a lot of people that changed, really changed everything back then, especially Corky Gonzales. He didn’t speak but he was there. I remember there were other poets and people like that that were there at that thing. JJ: At the anniversary? CV: Right. It was the 25th anniversary. 48 �JJ: Yeah, 25th anniversary. We had [from the crusade for Jesse’s place?]. CV: That’s what it was. That’s what it was, yep. JJ: We had that. The Young Lords in Chicago had gone there in ’68 for the first time. We took a busload in Chicago. That’s when we got involved in the (inaudible). Actually, he helped get us involved, Corky Gonzales. CV: [01:19:00] Right. Yeah, you know, it was cool. Like I said, there were a lot of important people, a lot of names that were there. And they went to a park. I remember being in some park that they had been at a long time ago, and they went to have some speeches there and stuff, which was cool. The Lincoln Park Project, I remember going to DePaul University, being involved with a lot of meetings because they had the photos and stories about the Young Lords that they were trying to accumulate at the time. I was part of the meetings. They made decisions with different people that I met over there in Chicago. JJ: So we were trying to tell the history again. CV: Right. (inaudible). JJ: And you didn’t know anything about the Young Lords but you were helping out. CV: Right. All that came after I got out of the rehab. [01:20:00] All I knew about you being part of that was that you were from Chicago. I think back then, I wasn’t as interested because of, you know, coming out of the rehab and stuff. But it was all, like I told you, a learning process, and it helped me to be a part of, to contribute. I met Stacy at -- JJ: That was the (inaudible). CV: No, no, no, it was out that college. We were handing out coffee. 49 �JJ: Oh, Calvin College. CV: Calvin College. Volunteering. We were volunteering. JJ: We were selling coffee for the KO Club. CV: Right, coffee and doughnuts. JJ: The KO Club was a youth program, a gang prevention program, that we set up in the style of the Young Lords, right? But we called it the KO Club. CV: [01:21:00] For the kids. You did that out of the church. I remember we were part of the church over by Vernon. JJ: United Methodist Church in Vernon Heights. CV: But there at Calvin was volunteer work. JJ: Yeah, they had a conference. CV: Right. JJ: And we were selling coffees to these women, and they let us do that. The United Methodist Church let us sell coffee to their conference, and we actually made a lot of money. Not a lot. We made about 800 dollars in a couple days. CV: That was pretty good. JJ: It went to the program, to the kids. That was that. So you helped with that. CV: Right, that part of it, yeah. JJ: You did a lot of volunteering. I can remember the sound, you were always the one that handled that. CV: Right, the PA system for them to speak and to run the guitars and stuff like that, because I was part of music -- JJ: The Lincoln Park Camp. 50 �CV: Right. JJ: So we had about three things. We had Lincoln Park [01:22:00] Camp. CV: The KO Club. JJ: We had the Latino support group. CV: And the KO Club. JJ: And the KO Club. CV: Three things I was part of. JJ: They worked together. CV: Right. But I went with you out of town quite a bit. JJ: We had a little Young Lords group here. You were part of that. CV: But I went out of town with you a lot of times to Chicago. We made a lot of road trips. JJ: You went with me to New York too. CV: One trip to New York was great. That was one of your best speeches. But you’ve gotta speak louder. (laughter) But it was good. It was one of the hottest days of the year, kind of like it is now, and we were in Spanish Harlem. JJ: The 40th anniversary of the Young Lords in New York. CV: Right, but it was so hot that day in that church. JJ: We had had the 40th anniversary in Chicago, but it was New York’s turn. CV: But that was good. JJ: What’d you say? I’ve gotta speak louder? CV: Yeah, you’ve gotta. JJ: It was good, you said, still. 51 �CV: Yeah, it was like [01:23:00] Denver. I got to meet a lot of people, and they were from -- it’s all history. JJ: Yeah, we were well received in both places. CV: Right. But it was a guy’s daughter that was there, his granddaughter. JJ: Oh, and Pedro Luis Ocampo’s granddaughter. CV: You’ve got a picture. We got a picture with her, right? And he’s an important person, you know, for what you guys believe in. JJ: (inaudible). CV: Yep. JJ: She came and said hello (inaudible). CV: Yeah. Getting back to where I came from and to how I got here, my thing was the change in life for what I did. Detroit, to grow up in that era, it was a plus because you can do more at that time. Now, you know, streets are a little dangerous. You’ve gotta watch your back when you walk around. It’s changed. Everybody left [01:24:00] Detroit, you know. It’s just hanging there, surviving, one of the cities that’s survived. My son does what he does for the community, for the kids. He’s still there. He don’t stay in Detroit, but you know, he goes down the neighborhood every day, him and his buddies. They’re there at Clark Park, which is good, you know. JJ: So what are you doing now? What type of work and stuff like that? CV: I’m running casino parts. Slot machine parts. Yeah, I do that, buff and polish. JJ: So you’re doing buffing and polishing? 52 �CV: Yeah. Well, I polish. I polish some parts. They’ve got buffers. But I run them parts for them, prep ’em before they’re plated. They put chrome on them. JJ: And you’ve been there for a while. CV: Yeah, I’ve been there since ’94. You know, I left to California to go help Michael Lin, the crisis he had out there. Then I came back and they rehired me. [01:25:00] So I kind of lost my seniority, but still about 14 years, he said, a little more, something like that. But it’s good. It’s a small business and tight. JJ: You know the owners real well? CV: Well, I worked with his dad. He passed away and then his son took over, so it’s good. And he said we’re about two-year contracts that we’ve got going, so as long as it keeps me working. Knock on wood. I’m one of the ones that’s working, making money. A lot of people I know, they ain’t doing nothing. Like I said, I’m almost 59. I’m working as hard as I did when I started, 100 degrees in there. It’s hot. But that’s what we do. Should’ve went to college. I would’ve been sitting behind a desk. (laughter) JJ: Well, I mean, you like the job. I mean, it’s a good job. CV: It’s something my brother Beto taught me, yeah, how to do. You know, it’s a trade. It’s a dying trade, but it’s a trade, yeah. You’ve gotta be good at it. They’re not gonna hire you [01:26:00] off the streets unless you know what you’re doing. It’s dangerous. Jerry got hit twice today with a part, just to show you. The machines run at 1,800 RPM, like a fast wheel running at you, and if you lose a part, it’ll hit you. You’ve gotta be able to hold onto the part, so it’s physical. You know, a lot of pain. But you’re making money. They don’t pay by 53 �hour. They pay by how fast you go. You know, but it’s a dying thing. They don’t do that no more. A lot of businesses don’t pay like that. They go hourly. So it’s good. JJ: Any final thoughts? CV: I’d like to contribute I’d say to this community, which I became part of. JJ: Grand Rapids, you mean? CV: Grand Rapids, yeah. I don’t know how far, you know, [01:27:00] I’m gonna go as far as working. Everybody else I’m around, they’re retired. All my brothers, you know, they don’t work no more. JJ: (inaudible) 59. CV: It don’t matter. Them dudes retired when they were younger than I was, my brothers did, you know? It depends on your job and your pension and everything. So in your situation, where you’re at. I don’t know. But if I get out of what I’m doing because it’s too physical, I’ll end up probably playing some music, doing cooking, doing something I like to do, something a little more laid back. But I’ve gotta pay the bills, you know? If I could be part of something in the community where I can volunteer, keep me busy, I’d do that. I’d do a lot of -what you call it? -- watch my diet and stuff now because I was overweight for a long time. I had to change my eating habits and stuff like that. [01:28:00] So I’m on my bike a lot now, walk whenever I can, try to do physical stuff. We got a heat wave now and I ain’t gonna do it out there in 90 degrees, you know. Yeah, it’s just see how it goes, you know. I’m not involved with the Young Lords as much as I was before, but I still communicate with them, you know? So, you know, it’s 54 �like you were telling me, they have that thing in Oregon, a play that’s going on, I want to get in touch with Michael Lynn. You know, if he’s still there, and the play is still going on at the time and I’m not doing nothing, I’d like to go out that way, you know, be with him and to go see it, do something. Because, you know, we’re tight. We grew up together, but we don’t see each other no more, you know? Especially when you get our age, you lose contact with different people. Something to do, you know? I’m not married no more, but, you know, but I’m still around -- [01:29:00] I’m going to the family reunion Saturday. I’m the one that runs everything. I do that for the family, you know, keep (inaudible) nephews and nieces. You know, we used to see each other at funerals, you know, and that was it. You know, weddings once in a while, you know, but I say, hey, once a year, I make an effort to go to Detroit, I rent the park, and get the food together, and try to get as many of the family together to keep it tight. Because my ma and dad used to go to (inaudible) used to have picnics there. And that’s all the old pictures. JJ: Go where? CV: Belle Isle, La Bella Isla. It’s right there in the Detroit River. West Grand Boulevard starts from the Ambassador Bridge, goes in a circle, and it goes right into Belle Isle. So with the way they made the city, but a lot of people used to have picnics there in the old days. They had the [01:30:00] Grand Prix there a few times, you know, but yeah. I do it because of the old days, you know, when we used to get together with family, so I try to keep everybody, you know, tight. Some of our family’s out of the state, but the ones that are here in the Detroit 55 �area, I try to get them, you know, together, keep the family tight. You know? I don’t go down there as often as I used to, but one time a year, I make an effort. I think that’s important, you know, for family to -- especially when -- it’s like, my niece just had a, you know, baby, (inaudible). You know, and the new -- the younger ones get to meet and read about the older ones. They have pictures, they have the little pamphlets and stuff, you know, the stories about the family and stuff like that, you know, so they can read. But it’s [01:31:00] pretty good. You know, some -- a lot of people do it, they do it their own way, because, you know, I’m making it up, at least try to, you know, do it. JJ: So what’s the benefit? Because I know you do a lot for the reunion, you do that every year. What do you think is the benefit of the reunion for the family? CV: So that your cousins won’t forget your cousins. They know each other. They won’t walk down the street and say, “Man, I didn’t know we were related.” And a lot of that stuff goes around. You know, people grow up. It’s not like when we came. I’m second generation, you know, I’m talking third, fourth generation. You know, it’s not like before. They don’t all speak Spanish, you know? And I was just one of the few that didn’t do that. So, you know, I think it’s important, especially for, you know, different cultures, being Latino. United States changed, you know? [01:32:00] A lot of Latinos in the United States now. So it’s important to keep all that, you know -- JJ: So how do you feel about that? Now we’re -- I didn’t ask you, did you experience any discrimination at all when you grew up? CV: I get profiled once in a while, but I’m -- 56 �JJ: What (inaudible)? CV: That’s when they see you and they think you’re up to no good, you know? They think just because of the way you look, you know? JJ: So, what do you mean? Can you explain that? CV: I look Indian -- Mexican. JJ: (inaudible) examples of profiling? CV: Well, I’d have to say the DNR, you know, a couple times got me. JJ: What is DNR? Department of Natural Resources?, something like that? CV: Right. They come to check your fishing license, you know? And there’s other people that are around, and they’re all fishing around me, but they come straight to me because I got long hair, and I look Indian, Mexican. I own a boat, you know, but they don’t think I can own a boat. They come ask me for my registration. I mean, they’re doing their job, I don’t give them a [01:33:00] hard time, but I just think it’s a type of profiling that they’re doing. They’re not going up to everybody. And I see it in this neighborhood lately, because of this heatwave we had going around, that’s just, the cars are stopping, everybody, you know? And I can go down a couple -- JJ: Police are stopping everybody? CV: Oh yeah. JJ: Really? CV: Yeah, Saturday night. You know, but they have trouble over here, you know? And they have -- heat brings alcohol, brings drugs, brings -- I can’t say nothing negative about the police too, they’re doing their job. But, you know, every once 57 �in a while you’re going to have the ones that, you know, go over the edge. You know, I see it. And then I’ve got family out there in California and Arizona and stuff like that, and New Mexico. There’s relatives that are related to other relatives that have experienced worse, you know? JJ: In New Mexico, you have family (inaudible)? CV: Well, my brother Jesse lives down there, you know? [01:34:00] And his son. My sister Yola. JJ: Oh, you mean this stuff that’s going in on New Mexico -- CV: In the United States. JJ: How do you feel about that? CV: Well, my thing is that I’m fortunate that I don’t live in the area, you know what I mean? Over here, we don’t get it as bad. But you know, if they change it like they did the law over there in Arizona, you know, that means they can stop anybody for anything. And if you’re -- they want to check you for your papers or whatever -- and I have what they call a green card. You know, I have mine, everything’s legal, I’m a permanent resident of the United States. But if you don’t have your papers, you know, they’re getting them as far as taking them to the doctor. Their family’ll be sick, and then they’ll go ahead and they’ll get a hold of the family, because they know they’re not from here. You now, [01:35:00] so there are different ways that they got to do it. They’re having problems with too many people in the country coming over. JJ: So you think they have to do it? 58 �CV: Certain areas. Certain areas have to because of the overflow, especially down there by Mexico. And the drug dealers don’t help by sending them over with all them packs on their backs, you know? They do it -- guys got family over there. They’re going to offer you so many thousand dollars for their family, they’re going to do one trip for them just so they’ll have some money for their family. They’re not going to experience that type of money nowhere else. They’ll go to jail for that, you know? It’s rough. JJ: So on the one hand you’re saying they have to do it, but on the other hand, as you were saying, that maybe they -- CV: Both sides. Both sides gotta do it, or they -- one guy’s got to do their job because they got to do their job to control the country, and the other guy’s got to do it because he’s struggling. The families are starving or they don’t have nothing, they’re in [01:36:00] poverty, so they say “I can’t get a job, I can’t get into the United States, but this guy offers me $5,000 to bring in a pack of weed on my back and I can make it over there through the desert?” He’ll do it. You know what I mean? And they’re young people. JJ: Is it really about just drugs? Or are some people just trying to get a job, you know? Or -- CV: The majority of them that get caught in there, you know, are the ones that are running the drugs, and the other -- JJ: The ones that are being caught now? CV: Right, so -- 59 �JJ: They’re leaving -- you’re saying that they’re leaving the other people that are just coming here for jobs alone? CV: No, the ones that are coming for jobs are getting caught too, you know, illegally. But they got different ways they come in (inaudible), you know what I mean? It’s just too many -- that’s a big issue, big issue, immigration, you know, with the United States. I don’t live there, that’s what I’m saying. My brother lives down there in New Mexico. Especially the people in Arizona. JJ: So [01:37:00] how do you feel about your brother? CV: My brother Jesse, he’s been down there most of his life, you know? He’s the one that was in Vietnam, you know? And he believes that it’s just, you know, there’s the poor people over there on the other side that want a better life, you know, and they want to come over. We were lucky. Back then, they were giving the papers out. They’re not doing that no more. That’s changed. 9/11 changed everything, you know? Especially with immigration. I had to do -- my card is Homeland Security. JJ: Your card says Homeland Security? CV: That’s who’s, you know, watching you. That’s who keeps track -- JJ: On your card, it says Homeland Security? CV: It’s Homeland Security. It’s part of -- you know, their security to keep track of the immigration, you know what I mean? So it’s like a little chip that’s on that card, you know, in order to keep track of everybody. But, you know, [01:38:00] that’s what you got to use. I haven’t been out of the country in a long time, you know? 60 �When my ma died, that’s the last time I went to Juarez. You know? It’s been a while. JJ: I’m just saying, my card doesn’t say Homeland Security. It should, right? (laughs) CV: Yeah, yeah. JJ: I’m just kidding. CV: It is all good, you know, to be able to grow up in the United States. JJ: So, because you’re growing up in the United States, but you’re still a Mexican. You said “I’m not going to be a citizen.” So you got a little pride -- does that mean you got a little pride for Mexico, or what? CV: Viva Mexico. (laughs) [Zapata?]. Yeah, Zapata. JJ: I mean, is that the way you feel, or am I putting words in your mouth? CV: No, no, no. That’s -- I was a revolutionary in the other life. (laughs) JJ: You’re coming down. CV: I’m coming down now. We’re good? JJ: Yeah. [01:39:00] CV: Okay. JJ: All right. You done? CV: Yep. END OF VIDEO FILE 61 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/019735a8279b4e5009a4a53c57b54fef.mp4 38feefec8f79e228c996c4db87dddaa2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carlos Vasquez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexicano-Americanos--Michigan Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Vasquez_Carlos Title A name given to the resource Carlos Vasquez video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vasquez, Carlos Description An account of the resource Carlos Vazquez is from Detroit, Michigan but he was born in Mexico and his family is from Ciudad Juárez on the border with Texas. Mr. Vasquez’s family settled in Detroit in the 1940s and 1950s. Mr. Vasquez is a musician who has played in several bands. He met José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez while Mr. Jiménez was a senior counselor/supervisor for Project Rehab. Mr. Vasquez decided to join the Young Lords and has volunteered to work on all of the Lincoln Park Camps. Today Mr. Vasquez’s son and other children still recall the event and say that it had a positive effect on them. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Michigan Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-18 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9124bc0306e950b48987f80f57f2fda9.pdf 3e8619194423dc0480df9ad8a9658f0a PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Rebecca “Buffy” Vance Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/20/2012 Biography and Description Rebecca “Buffy” Vance was friends with “Stony,” who was a white southerner and one of the main Young Lords from the Wieland branch of the group before they became human rights activists for Latinos and the poor. Stony was about 17-years-old then and lived across from Wieland on North Avenue. His sisters became members of the auxiliary group, the Young Lordettes. Wieland culture was completely different from the culture at Halsted and Dickens and Burling and Armitage where the other main group of Young Lords hung out. The difference was that on Wieland and North Avenue, they did not have to share space with the other Puerto Rican Clubs of Lincoln Park. Pockets of Puerto Ricans left behind from the destruction wrought by urban renewal in the Puerto Rican barrio of La Clark were still around then. Wieland Street was one of the streets that still survived. Masao Yamasaki, a man of Japanese descent, became friends with Stony and other Young lords and tried to help them with counseling and guidance. Mr. Yamasaki did this through the YMCA, where Young Lords would go for swimming and basketball. He owned a factory and started providing a few of them, including Stony, with jobs. And Stony remained in his packaging company for years, becoming a supervisor for the company. Ms. Vance was never in the Young Lords but grew up in Lincoln Park and attended Alcott Elementary at 2625 North Orchard. Alcott School then had an after school program that would supervise the youth at night to keep them out of trouble and off the streets. A few of the Young Lords attended Alcott and �spread the word about the program. They would have to walk 8 to 10 blocks to attend but it did help some of them as they participated in sports, arts and crafts, and other activities. There were also the social dances, where youth danced to tunes such as “Wipe-out,” “Twine Time,” “Monkey Time,” and “Louie Louie.” Today Ms. Vance today works at the University of Illinois Circle Campus as Assistant to Communications and Development and Alumni Relations. Prior to joining the College of Law, she worked as a development Secretary for Will AM-FM-TV. Ms. Vance has also worked at Amdocs Inc. and in benefit planning. �Transcript REBECCA VANCE: Okay. My name is Rebecca Vance. I’ve got a nickname of [Buffy but I think anybody from a long time ago in the neighborhood would remember me as Rebecca. I was born in Richmond, Indiana, and then moved to inner-city Chicago when I was a few months old with my mom. She was divorced when she was pregnant with me and I have an older sister, three years older than me, who lived with us there and then a younger sister seven years younger. JOSE JIMENEZ: RV: What are their names and what year did you come to Chicago? We came to Chicago probably 1952 I was born so it’s a little, family didn’t talk a whole lot about that time but it’s probably early ’50s we came to Chicago. [00:01:00] Actually, we lived on Clarington. I’m not sure where that is. It’s probably not too far from where I grew up but we lived there first. And then she remarried my stepfather and we moved to Wrightwood and Mildred when I was five years old. So that’d be about ’57 and we stayed in that. It was a brownstone brick building. We stayed there through eighth grade and then they moved, we moved out. But I -- JJ: So you were in Uptown on Clarington and then you moved to Lincoln Park at the time. RV: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So when I was five -- JJ: You said around ’57, (inaudible) and it was like a brownstone building? RV: Yeah, it was a brownstone building. It was right on the corner and it was kind of funny. Years later, I was working at a, I don’t even remember. Like a warehouse 1 �or something in Champaign here and I was talking about where I lived [00:02:00] and a guy was hearing me. He goes, “Oh yeah, my mom owned that building.” What are the odds of that? So it got me thinking and I went back and went to look at that building, went to look at it, and we actually lived in the basement. So I found the landlady because there was, it looked like there was one of the apartments for rent and I asked if I could see the basement apartment. She was just like, “There is no one anyone could live there.” It’s like, “Oh, yeah, we lived there.” I was explaining where the bedroom was and where the bathroom and she just, she said, “Oh, well, there’s an outlet for a bathroom but I can’t believe it.” So I looked down there and it was amazing that they had a little apartment down there. But -JJ: This was on Mildred or...? RV: Yeah, Mildred and Wrightwood. It’s still a really nice building. I mean, just I could sort of remember because of the streets but a lot of the old apartments or brownstones, some of them were still there. But mostly in between where there was like [00:03:00] bigger gangways and stuff were really, really, big, nice townhomes. When I tell people, “Oh yeah, I grew up in Lincoln Park,” they’re like, “Wooh, wooh!” And I was like, “No, it wasn’t like that. It was just kind of a working-class neighborhood.” JJ: At the time? RV: Yeah. JJ: Especially around Halsted. But I mean east of that, you had the goalposts, right? I mean, you had Lake Shore Drive? 2 �RV: Yeah. We would walk in the summer, we would walk to the beach every day. JJ: What beach did you go to? RV: Fullerton Avenue Beach. JJ: (inaudible) RV: Yeah, we’d go to Fullerton and then my older sister, [Vera?] was older than me. So she would go to the rocks, Addison Rocks, and that’s where all the teenagers would hang out. JJ: (inaudible) RV: So yeah, they would hang out there but I remember going to, walking to Fullerton Avenue beach every day. JJ: So the teenagers were hanging around the Addison Rocks. When you say teenagers, what kind of position I mean in terms of minority. [00:04:00] Were there -- RV: It was -- JJ: Or did you even think about that at that time? RV: I didn’t think about it a lot. I thought about race because I was called some names. I was, my mom and you know, in the ’50s, that wasn’t that long -- JJ: You were called names? What do you mean? RV: Just racial slurs. She was born in Japan from Tokyo and my father is Caucasian. So and I really never saw him till I was 13 but so she would always tell me, “You’re American. You can pass. You’re American. Say you’re Italian.” (laughter) I was like Italians got it better? I don’t know. So I just -- but I really couldn’t identify. There was a small Japanese population maybe and I was 3 �looking for my picture, at my class picture. There were several Japanese children that were in my grade school and that may be why we moved to that certain area. But mostly, it was [00:05:00] Latino, Latina. JJ: At that time, was it Latino? RV: Yeah, there were quite a few, quite a few of my friends were Puerto Rican. We just, that was the neighborhood. So I got my first kiss from a Puerto Rican boy. (laughs) JJ: Okay. RV: Yeah, so I remember that. Yeah. JJ: Now, so you’re of Japanese ancestry and so did, were your parents raised over there at the time? RV: My mother was. She was. She lived in Japan most of her adult life. I think she, maybe she got, maybe she had me when she was 30 but she lived through the war there. She told me stories about being bombed in Tokyo. JJ: What war? I don’t -- RV: What was that, World War II? JJ: Oh, World War II? Okay. (inaudible) -- RV: Yeah, they, yeah, bombed Tokyo. She’s 88 now. JJ: Oh, when they bombed...? RV: Yeah, so she lived through that. She just lived there and she would -- JJ: What kind of stories did she (inaudible)? RV: Oh, just wonderful stories to tell time. (laughs) Just wonderful but, you know, [00:06:00] war stories. She just and she was very, we could -- now that I look 4 �back now, I could see that just very much affected her. Just the trauma of that and then the prejudice coming to the coun-- this country right after it. Once, she told a lot about the bodies and you know. But I do remember one story that kind of gave me strength that I thought about and I still think about. She was upstairs reading and her mom was calling her, “Please come down to the basement, please come down,” because they were bomb, they were beginning bombing again. And she said, “If I’m going to die, I’m going to die upstairs in my bedroom reading my book, not in the basement like a cockroach.” (laughs) And she said she stayed there reading and they couldn’t make her come down. And I just, I think about that. I still think about that. And now, I [00:07:00] just think she just had enough and she would tell me the people didn’t do anything. It was a government, it was a change of government. And they were real militant and the people are, the culture is just to obey. And so but she, I think it just struck her that, “I’m a human being and I’m tired of, I’m tired of running and being afraid. If you’re going to kill me, kill me this way. I’m going to die with dignity,” so I remember that story. That was good. When she got to this country, it was difficult. I think the marriage, it was difficult. It was a difficult time being inter-intermarried that way and so I don’t think her in-laws were happy and she wasn’t happy. So it was a hard time. There was a lot of prejudice, a lot of name-calling. People didn’t like, you know, it was the enemy. JJ: What kind of name-calling? RV: You mean like you want me to say [00:08:00] the words? JJ: Yeah, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- 5 �RV: Yeah, might as well. All right. Yeah, I got called like Jap or dirty Jap or you know. So mm-hmm, yeah. JJ: Yeah, because I didn’t, I didn’t consider that but it’s true that the World War II -- RV: With the war just so -- yeah, it wasn’t -- JJ: (inaudible) more prejudice. RV: Yeah, it wasn’t that far from, yeah. JJ: Did you know people in those internment camps or anything like that or no? (inaudible) RV: Not of our family because she was first generation. She was the first one to come to this country and it was after the war that she came. But yeah, I think the Japanese were kind of the only people in this country that were rounded up and put in jail. I don’t know but so -- JJ: Yeah, right, mm-hmm. Okay, so it wasn’t your generation because you had come after the war. RV: Yeah, she came after the war and that’s where she met my father was in, she was working in a hospital and he was -- JJ: Here in Chicago? RV: In Tokyo. JJ: In Tokyo, okay. RV: She was working in a hospital. And she was actually a very privileged family, a very wealthy family. [00:09:00] The [Oharas?] from Tokyo and I guess they had like a business school and had a lot of buildings. She did tell me when she left, there was nothing left. I mean, they -- everything was bombed and they didn’t 6 �have pictures. But there was one building and she gave that to her brother. But when she came to this country, she had to work because she had two small girls to take care of and she got a job I guess in a factory doing like a heavy sewing. I talked to some people that had actually -JJ: This was here. RV: Yeah, in Chicago. She worked in a factory -- JJ: Heavy sewing so -- RV: -- doing -- JJ: Not Maxwell Street or anything like that by that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) - RV: It could’ve been, it very well could’ve been because I was actually to my ex inlaws saying and they had worked in different factories and I said what she did. They couldn’t believe that a woman that little could do it because I guess it’s a big apparatus that you have to do all day. She eventually [00:10:00] got bursitis as she got older from it. But I mean, that kind of gives me strength, too, to think that somebody who is so privileged, they had servants and but they were not above just going in and doing what you have to do. Working hard to take care of your children so I admired her for that, yeah. JJ: This is your mom. RV: My mom. JJ: And then is she still alive? RV: She’s still alive. She’s 88, yeah. She was doing really well until about a couple of years ago and then she just kind of, I think she just kind of gave up. She just 7 �kind of gave up. But her whole life, she kind of thought -- I don’t want to say she thought people didn’t like her but people didn’t like her. So that’s a hard thing to leave your culture, leave your country, people are bombing you, come here, you didn’t do anything and people don’t accept you. So I don’t think she ever really got over that. Yeah. JJ: Now, did you realize that they didn’t accept her or are you realizing that now? RV: [00:11:00] That they didn’t -- no, I knew it then. JJ: I mean, how did you know? RV: Because I could hear, I could hear what they’re saying. People are very verba-you know. You grow up in Chicago, people aren’t going to bow and smile. I mean, they’ll just yell out if they don’t like you. If they like you, they do. But yeah, so I heard racial slurs the whole time I was there. Interesting enough, I was, because I don’t look full Japanese, full Asian, just most of the time, I was mistaken for being Latino so I got a lot of racial slurs about that. But -- JJ: About being Latino? RV: Oh yeah. JJ: (laughs) RV: Oh yeah. “You spic! You spic!” It’d be like a little girl. I was like, “Ha ha, I’m not a Spic, I’m a Jap.” (laughs) You know, so but like trying to make a joke of it but... JJ: So there was a lot of prejudice on any, it was all, any minority. They were -- RV: You know -- JJ: Everybody was calling you names. RV: Everybody was. That in a way, that, it didn’t make it -- 8 �JJ: I mean it didn’t, is that, is there (inaudible)? [00:12:00] RV: It is true. It didn’t make it okay but at least everybody had a name. I mean, everybody had some kind of name. You’re Italian, you’re a Dago. (laughs) I mean, I hate to say the words, but... JJ: Mm-hmm. RV: There were no African Americans in our neighborhood. There just weren’t; There just weren’t. But it was quite a few, yeah, quite a few Puerto Rican. It was just kind of Puerto Rican mix. JJ: So was the neighborhood mixed or was it segregated or what? RV: No, it was mixed. JJ: It was mixed. RV: Yeah. I would just, you know, just -- JJ: So everybody would just call each other names but it was a mixed bag. Were there neighborhoods that were mixed? But what was the, let’s say majority, minority in that area? RV: In this area where I lived, it was -- JJ: At that time, in the ’57. RV: Yeah, in ’57. I would say, I would say almost, I want to say like half Latino, have Caucasian and some Asian. But or maybe the Caucasian and Asian were about split. [00:13:00] It was quite -- JJ: When you say Caucasian, do you, are they all from the same Ethnic minority or...? RV: Well, I -- no, I don’t know. I would say like Irish and German and -- 9 �JJ: Irish. So it was like Irish and German and -- RV: Yeah. Yeah, kind of just working-class. JJ: Right, working-class. RV: Yeah, so everybody’s parents, everybody’s parents worked, not many moms worked. Not too many moms. JJ: I’m surprised that there were that many in ’50, in ’57. Well, that was ’60, yeah, ’59, ’61, every one like that. So who were your friends then? You were five years old. RV: My friends? Well, I had a friend when I first came to the school, I was very, really shy and she came over and said she’d sit with me. Her name is [Diane Silak?]. So she’s Polish, you know, Diane Silak, and she, I kept contact with her. I recently just Facebook [00:14:00] connected with her so she was [Deedee Silak?], she was my best friend. And then [Linda Dunzi?] [and I still talk to her. I had a crush on her brother. She was, had a twin brother and I don’t know, I think maybe they were Italian, Italian mix. But Dunzi, I’m not sure. But we didn’t think a lot about race. With our friends, we just didn’t. Now if I look back and try to remember, but we thought about it a lot if you got called a name and we didn’t, like if we got mad at our friends, we didn’t do that. But if it was people you didn’t know. Maybe if you were out on the street or adults would do it some. JJ: So it existed but among your friends, you didn’t really express it. It didn’t matter. RV: No. JJ: You were just friends and -- RV: Yeah, we just grew up together. We all, we started kindergarten together and we 10 �went to eighth grade. JJ: And you went to kindergarten where? RV: It was Louisa May Alcott School. JJ: Oh, [00:15:00] Louisa May Alcott. Then that’s right there by Wrightwood or...? RV: Yeah, if you’re on Wrightwood and Mildred, you have to cross Halsted and then just keep going east. Probably, I was amazed when I went back how many blocks it was because I walked that as a little girl and you couldn’t wear pants, you had to wear skirts. I was like it was cold. I thought I was cold. It was cold. So you had to walk that but it’s probably I would say like four blocks, maybe. Four or five blocks. It’s quite a ways. JJ: From (inaudible). RV: Mm-hmm. JJ: And so you went to kindergarten there all the way to eighth grade or...? RV: Yeah, I graduated eighth grade. A lot of people graduated eighth grade and that was it. They didn’t go on to high school; You just didn’t. So it was kind of a big deal. The parents would come and it was like a big graduation. It was kind of a big deal. JJ: So we talked about the conversation of the neighborhood. What about the school? I mean, what kind of...? RV: About the same, yeah, because it was that [00:16:00] area. So it was about the same. JJ: What would you say was the biggest minority at the, in the -- RV: The biggest minority was Latino, Latino, mm-hmm. Yeah. 11 �JJ: So in Alcott? RV: Yeah, I think so. JJ: Okay. Any memories of that, of Alcott? What kind of memories do you have? You went through a lot of grades there so... RV: Yeah, I do go through a lot of grades there. When you got old enough, you got to go Wednesday night, something called Social Center. And so they would have, they’d play records. There wasn’t like a DJ or a band. They would play records and you got to dance or they had games so it was something you could do at night. So that was, we would go to, my friends and I would go to that. I was allowed to go to that. I think a lot of other schools came to it, too. It was kind of open because it was always really packed with a lot of people I didn’t know so... JJ: But I remember the Young Lords used to go to that Wednesday night thing. So [00:17:00] I mean what, can you kind of describe that? I mean, what did you -- RV: Yeah, it was just -- JJ: Because I mean, you were in Alcott. You were no more -- RV: Yeah, it was in the gym and they would just play music and I -- JJ: About how many kids would go do you think? RV: There was a lot. It was just packed. I mean, it was just -- JJ: A hundred kids? RV: Yeah, yeah. I think I got restricted from going when it was like (laughs) when you guys showed up. Because it was like scary. I remember looking over and just like, “They look scary, I don’t know.” (laughs) That was kind of scary. So it wasn’t, (phone rings) it wasn’t just -- 12 �(break in audio) JJ: So we were talking about the conversation of the school. Then we were talking about the Wednesday night socials? RV: Yeah, Social Center. Yeah. JJ: So did people come into the gymnasium, like 100 kids or...? RV: Yeah, a lot. It was like a school dance except it was [00:18:00] every Wednesday and you could just come. I think I remember you could go to different rooms. They would have different things set up. I kind of remember you could go play a game or something but most of the people went to the gym. It was, I mean if you see like American Bandstand or something, you know, it was kind of, they were kind of just trying to do that with records and they would just play records. So I was just saying when you said the Young Lords showed up to it, I was like, “Yeah, I think I remember that (laughs) vividly.” I think it was pretty scary. Just kind of a presence like you just felt like, “Uh-oh. Uh-oh, this isn’t -- uh-oh.” So -- JJ: So at first, the gangs didn’t come. RV: No, uh-uh. It’s -- JJ: It was more calm and that for years. RV: I think, well, for when I was allowed to go and maybe I went like maybe seventh and eighth grade because it was at night. You know, it was dark, it was at night. But I think I was allowed to go because all [00:19:00] my friends did but I think I just -- JJ: So there wasn’t gangs at that time. RV: Uh-uh. No, I don’t think so -- 13 �JJ: You don’t think so. RV: -- but yeah, towards the end. I think -- JJ: So we’re talking about what years that there were not any gangs? RV: That there were not? JJ: (inaudible) RV: Yeah. So I guess I graduated, I don’t even know, like ’65, ’66 so right around in there. That would’ve, like later ’60s. JJ: So around ’66 and then the gangs started showing up? RV: Yeah, and I think I just wasn’t allowed to go anymore. (laughs) JJ: Then the parents stopped. RV: I think so. And it wasn’t like there was an incident that happened. I don’t think there was any fights or anything. Or that maybe, there’s always a fight. I mean, always somebody was always having a fight. But I think it was just kind of a reputation. JJ: Thinking about reputation, you weren’t trying to get a reputation? RV: Yeah, no offense. (laughs) JJ: So they were just trying to get a reputation at that time, the gangs? RV: Yeah. No, I think that they had a reputation and the parents [00:20:00] kind of or mine did. JJ: Oh, it was a bad reputation. RV: Yeah. JJ: I mean, the gangs. RV: Yeah, yeah, so it’s just -- 14 �JJ: So the parents stopped the other kids from going. RV: Yeah. Well, the paren-- my parents did. I think a lot of, a lot of them still was able to come but I quit coming. JJ: But how did you feel about it? I mean, your parents there? RV: You know, I probably, they, it was probably because I told them of an incident I had and I don’t, but see, this wasn’t gang-related. This was just somebody’s older brother. But you know, now that I think about it, he might’ve been in a gang. But I didn’t, I don’t remember the kid I went to school with but I remember his brother’s name was [Bappo?] and I was sitting with my friend and so he was like, he just came over to me like he just wanted to dance. But he was just like demanding he wanted to dance so I was just like, “Uh-uh, no.” So he just (laughs) went like he was going to smack me. He was standing over the top of me so I was really scared. I think my friend [00:21:00] was just looked at him like, “Punk.” I was like, “Shut up, he’s talking to me!” (laughs) So, “Shut up, get me hit.” So I probably, I might’ve said something about that and that was like, “Oh, it must be gang-related.” But he may have been in a gang, I don’t know. It’s hard. JJ: So what do you mean? Is that what the guys used to do? Demand? RV: Well, that one did. Yeah. Not the one, not the boys that I went to school with, nobody did. But this was, I think it was just kind of changing then and older kids were coming in and that’s when that happened. JJ: Okay, and that’s what I want to talk about. The change and the sort of neighborhood was changing you’re saying or...? 15 �RV: Yeah, it -- JJ: In what ways? I mean, how did you see that change? Can we go into that? RV: Did I see the change? JJ: I mean, in terms of the population or was it becoming more -- RV: It was getting, it was getting a lot more drugs. There was like hippies where big at that time. My older sister Vera, she’s three years older [00:22:00] than me and she kind of got into that scene. She was, so I was 13, she was 16. So -- JJ: So okay, so okay. Can you describe what would, since you, that’s your sister, you’re probably familiar with (phone rings) the changes. (break in audio) JJ: Yeah, okay. Go ahead. RV: So yeah, the neighborhood changed a little bit. It was more drugs just because it was, there was a big kind of a movement for hippies in Old Town and that was kind of not what everybody was doing. My older sister was so I kind of got into that. And then -- JJ: But you were far away for Old Town. RV: We were far -- JJ: We were closer to the [New Town?]. RV: Yeah, but Old Town is where it was cool and there were like blues players there and you could, you know. I remember being, when I was 13, I could, I knew all of those. I couldn’t get in but I could but I could stand outside and hear them. But you know, and I can speak about this [00:23:00] because it’s my experience in my home. There was violence in my home, my stepfather was abusive to my 16 �older sister and sexually abusive to her. I was always beaten. Just like hit in the head, slapped. I was just physically abused in the home but I felt safer on the street. So I thought it was funny when people were talking about crime and violence in Chicago. It’s like, “Yeah, come, step into my house.” (laughs) but when I was on the streets with my friends, I felt, I just felt more empowered. You know, you get hit a lot like that, it just kind of, it just makes you feel like, “Yeah, there I have to take it. You I don’t have to take it from.” So I just felt, I felt safe and I didn’t, I was never hurt or anything. But I picked up just the habits like on the street. I started smoking when I was 12 and getting high when I was 13, just smoking pot. I don’t think everybody at school did but [00:24:00] because of my older sister and her friends, I would do that with them. But she, yeah. So she got really into that hippy scene and she was, she was just had to run away. I don’t blame her. She just had to. So she ran away to Haight-Ashbury, kind of got in that scene, and then they found her and brought her back and put her in Audy Home. She stayed in Chicago for a while but then she moved to Florida to live with our father that lives in Florida. She was like, “Our father who art in Florida.” That was a kind of inside joke, ha ha. JJ: (laughs) RV: So yeah. So -- JJ: So she’s in the Haight-Ashbury scene and that and you’re talking about Old Town so people are going to Old Town. Did you -- RV: Well, I mean there were cars that would come. I mean, tourists would come by during that time and it was just people would be taking pictures because hippies. 17 �It was just kids [00:25:00] from the neighborhood and stuff but they would be sitting out. Sitting out on the, out on the corner but in -JJ: What do you mean? The hippies were like kids from the neighborhood? RV: Yeah, well, a lot of them were but a lot of them were just they grew up there. But a lot of them were coming from all over because Chicago was kind of supposed to be a cool place. Then when Vera told me when she went to California, there’s like, “What did you come here for? You lived in Chicago right around Old Town.” But I think a lot of the music scene, too, a lot of the blues and stuff was really, really big so... JJ: So the kids in the neighborhood are growing long hair and all that. They’re kind of changing internally, externally and -- RV: Yeah, yeah. JJ: That was the times. That was what -- RV: That was the times, yeah. And it was, you know. JJ: Now, so you’re hanging around Old Town and all? Where in Old Town? RV: She did. I wasn’t. So I was 13, 14 so I wasn’t allowed. [00:26:00] But I remember one time, I was, she did something. She’s just very defiant but you can understand why and she was just getting beaten up with a hanger and she’s just. Every time, and this is my stepfather who’s beating her. Then every time he’d stop, she would just look up and get a defiant look on her face. “Oh, you didn’t do it.” I think he was just wearing himself out. I just was thinking, “Just stay down, just stop,” but she wouldn’t. So after that, I just took off and went out and that’s not great for a 13-year-old to be out on the street just walking around, 18 �so yeah. I’d just kind of hang around the neighborhood or walk. I felt safer. JJ: Now, did you meet any of the other people that were hanging out at... I mean, when you went with your sister at times to Old Town or no? You’re saying no. RV: No. JJ: Okay. RV: Yeah, because I was pretty, it doesn’t seem [00:27:00] like it’s that much difference but 13 to 16 is a lot of difference. Yeah, so I was, I was pretty much still a child but a child smoking and getting high. JJ: You were smoking Halsted and Wrightwood. RV: Yeah. JJ: Not Old Town. RV: Yeah, I would -- JJ: So you never went to the Old Town. RV: I would go down with her a bit but I couldn’t go in anywhere. She could get in because she looked older. JJ: Well, the reason I’m saying that is there was a Young Lords branch on the corner of Wieland and North Avenue. I’m wondering if when you came to Old Town and you passed them, they were visible. They were -- RV: She probably did. JJ: Oh, she probably did? RV: Yeah. And her friend, she probably did. I mean, I could’ve. I don’t think I would identify them as being in a gang but I probably knew them. Just so I didn’t, we just didn’t think about labels and names much. 19 �JJ: Okay, (inaudible). RV: We just didn’t. JJ: Okay, what did you meet Stony? Is that, his name is Stony? RV: Yeah, [Stony Mullins?]? JJ: Right. [00:28:00] RV: Yeah, that’s when I came up and said, “Hey, do you know who that guy, do you know who that guy was?” As soon as I graduated eighth grade, my parents thought Chicago corrupted Vera. We’re going to get her, get me out so that I’ll have a better life. They didn’t, I mean, it’s kind of messed up. It’s like well maybe what was going on in the home was what messed up but so we moved to the Quad Cities. So I went to junior high and high school in East Moline, in Moline, Illinois which is culture shock like you could not believe. There was nobody that looked like me, it was a Swedish community. So everybody -- and there actually, there were, there was a Mexican community, there was more Mexican kids. But that was in East Moline and I moved to Moline first. So I got called spic regularly, [00:29:00] they would spray paint it on the garage, I got beaten for that. Just like I can’t so yeah, so -- JJ: What year was this? RV: That was probably like ’66, ’67 so I moved away. So then, after I graduated high school in ’70, it was like three days later I got on a train and moved back to Chicago. So -- JJ: Where did you move to? RV: I moved to, I lived on, I think I lived on Halsted with a friend. Her name was [Fran 20 �Miglaya?]. She’s Filipino and then she -JJ: Halsted and Wrightwood? RV: Halsted and -- no, it wasn’t Wrightwood. It was down a bit. I’m not sure. Down a couple blocks. It was maybe north a bit. JJ: North or south of Wrightwood? RV: Mm, [00:30:00] I’m not sure. It’s been a while. I’m not sure. I mean, it’s just right in -- JJ: Belmont? Belmont? Addison? RV: No, I moved to Belmont later. So I lived there for a while and then I ended up getting pregnant, having, I had my first son in 1972. I got married to her husband’s cousin. They were from Tennessee so they lived all through Uptown a lot. They were always -- and they were called hillbillies all the time. So I mean, everybody was called something. So that was that. He went to work at something, I think it was called A to Z Equipment and that’s where he met Stony Mullins. He was a foreman there by that time. So my husband at that time -- JJ: What kind of place? RV: I think it was an equipment company or something, yeah. I’m pretty sure that’s where he met him. So that’s where I first had met him and he wanted to know can I bring somebody home from work? I’m like, “Sure, bring somebody home.” And he told me, “I have a vice president of the Young Lords,” or he was and it’s like, [00:31:00] “Are you bringing gangbangers home?” JJ: Oh, he mentioned the Young Lords right away. RV: Yeah, after I said yeah, you can come, he can come over. But I think that’s in his 21 �past he had been. Yeah. JJ: Well, ’72? Yeah, he had been, because he was in the gang so he was in the ’60s in the gang, early ’60s. RV: Yeah, because he had been to, he had been to jail and back and he had been married -- JJ: And he had been in Old Town. He hung around in Old Town. RV: Did he? JJ: He was from (inaudible) rights, yeah. RV: Yeah. So I’m sure, yeah, I’m sure my sis-- because everybody knew her and she knew everybody so... JJ: Where’d your husband meet him? RV: Yeah, worked with him. Yeah. JJ: What was his name? RV: Oh, my ex-husband’s name was [Richard Nisky?]. JJ: Nisky, all right. RV: Yeah, and so yeah. So he -- JJ: Did Stony already say he was a Young Lord or...? RV: Yeah, he -- yeah. I mean, everybody knew him. He was a really nice guy, a real hard worker. He got to be like one of the bosses so he was really -- they knew. I think one of the bosses there kind of [00:32:00] took him under his wing when he was younger and helped him out. So and it was a Japanese, it was a Japanese, one of the Japanese foreman or bosses kind of helped Stony and so -- JJ: Oh, no. We had a Japanese counselor that worked with us. His name was 22 �Masao Yamasaki. RV: You know, it sounds like that -- JJ: And he said that he helped us? All of them helped us, the Young Lords? That was him. RV: Yeah, well -- JJ: So that was him in his factory because he did have a factory. RV: And yeah, and so he really, you know, I -- JJ: It must’ve been him. RV: Stony didn’t say but yeah, but you could just tell that he admired him and he was helping him. It was sad. I met his wife but it was after the accident. He married a Latina and she had a daughter and they had a little boy. She just came over, she just, I mean, she was just like, I don’t know, ashen. What had happened was [00:33:00] -- and they lived by, they lived by this Japanese boss. Or maybe he -I’m not sure how he was there. But she told me I looked away not for five minutes, not for one minute. I turned my head, I looked back, and he was dead. So I guess he just ran out into the street. So, this Japanese guy was came out crying telling him when he got home. It was really sad. I remember that about him and then I never saw him after that. JJ: Who ran into the street? RV: The little boy ran into the street and got killed, Stony’s little boy. JJ: Oh, Stony. RV: Yeah, I remember that. That’s what I remember of them. And then -- JJ: So he actually, what you’re saying is he actually -- because Masao Yamasaki 23 �was a counselor when we were at the (inaudible) YMCA. I used to go there. So Masao had a factory and he was [00:34:00] recruiting some of our members to work in his factor. Yeah, so -RV: Isn’t that something? That had to be what it was. JJ: Yeah, so yeah. He definitely played an important role in helping to get us out of the gang. Good timing. So this was before the Young Lords became political. RV: Oh. Yeah, because he was, I mean he -- JJ: But did you ever meet him or...? RV: I don’t think I ever met him, no. I don’t think I ever, but I heard good things about him. JJ: From your husband and that? RV: Yeah, yeah. So then -- JJ: So what kinds of things did you hear? RV: Just that he was, that he was just really encouraging and helped him in his career there. (break in audio) JJ: So right after you -- RV: Yeah, so that was bad. That happened and I think I was just pregnant. I don’t think that I had a baby, [00:35:00] I gave birth yet. Then I, there was a shooting in back. The houses are just so close to each other so my bedroom window was pretty much, the back of my apartment was pretty much the front of another one and there was a couple in back that lived there that were always screaming and fighting. I didn’t hear it but downstairs, his, my ex’s sister and brother-in-law lived 24 �down there. She said later, she was telling me you could hear her screaming. “Somebody help me, somebody call the cops!” I was like, “Why didn’t you call the cops?” She said because she screamed that all the time but I guess he, there was a shooting there and she was killed so they thought it was her husband. I didn’t hear; I don’t know. But right after that, I just thought that was enough and so I wanted to move so I moved -JJ: Now, this was what area, what streets? RV: This was when I lived on Racine. So right across the street [00:36:00] was a shoe factory and -- JJ: Racine and Wrightwood or...? RV: No, Racine. It was if you go down -- I’m not sure if it was north. It was North Racine so it was right, maybe about two, three blocks from Cub’s so it was Wrigleyville. JJ: It was by Wrigleyville do you think? RV: Yeah, so yeah, and there was a, like a lumber yard or something next to it. I think those are all gone. But yeah, so after that, somebody was shot in back and then there were things on the news about during that time, they were stealing babies. I mean, they were just stealing babies out of buggies and things and I just thought just my -- JJ: A lot of it, a lot of it was going on? RV: It was like two or three accounts and I just thought now, I was already kind of freaked out about the shooting so close. It was like now I can’t walk down this street. It’s like things changed for me being in inner-city and on the street when I 25 �had a baby. When it was just me, I just felt like nobody’s going to hurt me because [00:37:00] I’m going to take care of myself. But I thought what am I going to do if somebody pushes me and takes my baby? So I just, I didn’t feel safe. I didn’t feel it, I didn’t feel it was safe for my son. So I wanted to move so we moved to Champaign, Urbana. My stepfather and mother lived in Monticello and he worked for John Deere I believe it was. JJ: And what year was this? RV: This would’ve been so about ’74. JJ: Seventy-four. RV: Yeah, and so that’s when I left Chicago. JJ: Okay. So before then, if you can go back just a little bit. The Young Lords were going to Alcott and a few of the other gangs from the different areas there, from Lincoln Park were going there. And from Addison. The Latin Eagles were from Addison. RV: There were some really good dancers showing up. Some of the girls looked -yeah. I mean, they weren’t like girls because we were just like, “Ha ha,” whatever, and they were like they had these blouses on. JJ: When you say gang -- dancers. RV: [00:38:00] Dancers. JJ: You’re talking about English music? What type of music? RV: Oh, it was just like what you would hear, like what you would hear on the radio or American Bandstand or something. JJ: Okay. At that time. 26 �RV: So it’s like yeah. So whatever it was. I can’t remember in the ’60s. “Louie Louie” or whatever. JJ: “Louie Louie?” RV: Yeah. JJ: Oh, I remember (inaudible) that, yeah. RV: Yeah, but the girls looked like, they looked like women and they were great dancers and so -- JJ: “Louie Louie.” What other songs do you remember? RV: Oh, what other -- that was -- JJ: But you remember “Louie Louie.” RV: I remember “Louie Louie.” Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) (laughs) and some -- RV: Yeah, where -- yeah. That’s funny. Yeah, you’d just -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RV: -- stand in a line and each person goes -- it’s kind of funny now but... JJ: (inaudible) or something like that. They stand in line and kind of -- RV: Yeah, doing that. JJ: -- or I’m getting too old. RV: Yeah. JJ: (laughs) RV: No, they still did that, they still did that. [00:39:00] But yeah, so it was kind of -- JJ: So you said that -- RV: -- it was kind of cool. Yeah, kind of cool to watch -- 27 �JJ: When you say dancing, how did they, what kind of dancing did they do? Were they dancing to “Louie Louie” and some other...? RV: Yeah. Well, now if I look, if I look back now, it’s probably more like salsa that I can remember. It was just like all the kids are like, “Okay, that’s -- we can’t do that.” JJ: Okay, so salsa is Spanish music or something. RV: Yeah, I think it, I think it was. But it was just like we didn’t know what that was. And that looked like, “Wow, how do you do that?” (laughs) So yeah. So -- JJ: So that was a way of expressing their skills at that time with the, on the dance floor, on the dance floor. RV: Very much so, yeah. JJ: So that was what people looked up to at that time was in the neighborhood. RV: Oh yeah, yeah. And there was -- JJ: Who was the best dancer, the best-dressed person and -- RV: Really, yeah. Yeah. JJ: Am I, I’m not putting words in your mouth. RV: No, yeah, because they would have like white go-go boots and their blouses would just have little beads so when they moved, it would be like go-go. [00:40:00] It was like, wow. Just we thought it was really cool. I mean, you’re in eighth grade, you’re kids. But yeah, so that, it just looked really good. There were street dances sometimes and so -- JJ: Street dances? What do you mean? RV: Yeah, we’d just have like, have, block off a street and then a neighborhood would 28 �have live music and people would dance and have food and stuff. JJ: Oh, a block party? Like a block party? RV: Yeah, block party. We called it a street dance but yeah. Yeah, so -- JJ: Okay. (inaudible) And then you had the hippy scene also. RV: Yeah, that kind of changed. JJ: But not at Alcott. RV: No, that, no. Because they were too, we were too, we were eighth graders and we were 13 so a few but not many. But that was more high school. That would’ve been like Waller. A lot of people wanted to go to Senn High School and that was better. But -- JJ: Better than Waller? RV: Yeah because just Waller was just wasn’t supposed to be, it was supposed to be a tough school so -- JJ: What did you hear about Waller? Because that’s [00:41:00] where a lot of the Young Lords went to school. RV: That’s what we heard. (laughs) JJ: You thought it was a tough school. RV: Yeah, it was a tough school, yeah. So and it was scary and you could get beat up or just whatever but Vera went there for a while. But she didn’t graduate, she didn’t, she just kind of took off. That’s where I, everybody -- JJ: What changed Vera? I mean what, what -- RV: It was the abuse at home. JJ: The abuse? The sexual abuse? 29 �RV: Yeah, and the physical abuse. Yeah. And then just to medicate that pain, the drugs and so -- JJ: What kind of drugs did she use? RV: I know she used -- JJ: Every kind of drugs or...? RV: -- weed and stuff. I don’t know what. JJ: Okay. All you know is the weed and -- RV: Yeah, in California just probably whatever. JJ: But they use everything over there. RV: Yeah. JJ: (laughs) RV: Yeah, and you know it’s funny because my parents moved me to the Quad Cities. So when I got there, it was like I was talking to so fast, people would just be staring at me. And just like, “I know you’re speaking English but I can’t understand [00:42:00] you.” Because in Chicago, you’re just like boom, boom, boom. Everything’s faster, I guess, so I don’t, I don’t know. But they were just like, “What is that accent?” So I guess I had an accent and I talked fast and they didn’t -- they were like, “Are you Mexican?” (laughs) You know, like, “What are you, what are you saying?” So and I got more into drugs there because of all the culture shock. So it’s funny, we had a 40th reunion or whatever. I didn’t go to it but it’s funny. Everybody had headbands and going peace and I was like, I laughed at that. JJ: Like for Alcott or -- 30 �RV: No, this was in -- JJ: Quad Cities. RV: -- yeah, in Quad Cities. It cracked me up because I remember getting a lot of abuse for being a hippy and called dirty hippy, you know, you druggie. Now it’s so cool, you know, hey, peace. It’s like, okay, peace. (laughs) You know, but yeah. I don’t know. I just kind of, I think because of my age, I was kind of on the fringe of stuff happening watching and that’s what it [00:43:00] feels like a lot. That I was watching a lot that happened but I wasn’t involved in all that much. JJ: But you were kind of on the fringe of stuff. RV: I was on the fringe because of my age. Had I been three, four years older, I would’ve been right in it. But I did observe a lot so I think in a way, that’s kind of helped me. I didn’t have so much to come back out of. I did have a lot but more, more on the fringe observing or close to it rather than it happening right to me. JJ: Well, that’s kind of -- we’ll go back to that. I just want to -- okay, well, how was your mom feeling about all your changes that you’re going through and Vera? RV: Yeah, she -- um, she just, she didn’t express herself a lot. She was just very, everything was just very strict or punishment or [00:44:00] hitting or just real hard. “You don’t do that, then you’re Asian.” “You don’t do that, you’re Asian.” I was like, “Hey, I thought I was American, I thought I was Italian, I thought I could pass.” JJ: She would say you’re Asian? RV: Yeah. Then it was like we’re Asian, we don’t do that. (shrugs shoulders) So I don’t know. Oh, and we’re samurai because she was like a real high-class, a 31 �higher-caste system in Japan and they were samurai class. So it was all like, “Oh, you’re samurai,” I was like, “Okay.” You know, I didn’t know. JJ: So samurai was a higher class? RV: Mm-hmmm. JJ: For Japanese? RV: Yeah, yeah. So -- JJ: Society. RV: Yeah. So I heard a speaker -- JJ: So you’re insulting your, you’re insulting -- I’m sorry. Speak about it. RV: No, I just heard a speaker recently here at where I work here at La Casa and he was saying there are just different stages to realizing who you are. You may say you don’t identify with any culture or you [00:45:00] may be mixed or whatever. He’s like, “Well, you have a culture. Don’t say you don’t have a culture. You have a culture, you just haven’t embraced it yet.” That’s just really stuck with me. I just thought you know, I have, I do have a culture. I have Japanese, I have French and American Indian in me. There is a lot of culture there but it’s, I’m an American and I’m a Midwesterner, too. So and I really identify with Chicago. It just, it’ll come out in a minute. I’ll just, I’ll hear things about Chicago or see things or see things in me like, “Uh-uh, no.” “How about this?” “No, how about that? (laughs) This is how we’re going to get things done.” And I just go, “Those are my people.” I love that. That’s how I grew up and that, and I do. I’m embracing that more because I wanted to put that behind me and forget about it and do something better. But what I, I’m an artist and I like baking and decorating so -- 32 �JJ: Artist and drama? RV: Yeah, [00:46:00] and I teach sugar. JJ: Portraits or what? RV: Yeah, I did paint but now, I teach cake decorating so it’s with frosting and I love that. I’ve always loved cooking but here recently, just in my spirit, I just really want to feed people. I saw something about children. JJ: Oh, so you do like a painting type of cake? I’ve seen some -- RV: Yeah. JJ: And there’s that woman that did those cakes. RV: Yeah, yeah. Here’s a picture of one of my cakes. Can you see it? JJ: If I have it here, I can see it here. RV: Yeah, so it’s a -- yeah. It’s just you decorate it and it’s art. It’s sculpture. But you know, I was -- JJ: Is that another picture there or...? RV: That’s another picture here. JJ: Okay. RV: That’s my son and daughter-in-law’s wedding cake. JJ: Let me get a little bit closer if you can lift it up a little bit, a little bit higher. Right there, yeah. RV: Yeah, that’s all made of sugar. JJ: Okay. What about the other ones [00:47:00] over there? RV: There’s another one. JJ: And then that first one we got to show. Lift it up a little bit higher. Right there. 33 �RV: Can you see it? (laughs) JJ: All right, all right. RV: So there are works so it’s -- JJ: And then that first one if we can we get that again? RV: This one again? JJ: Yeah. RV: You want to see this one? JJ: Yeah. Lift it. Right there, okay. Okay. RV: So it’s sculpting but it’s edible and so I’ve always enjoyed doing culinary things. But I’ve been hearing about the government has all kinds of money for school programs so that children can eat. But and I just heard it recently because I watch the Food Network all the time. But then I just heard that the program is before school so 98 percent of the children that come in don’t get to eat because the program’s over because the teachers don’t want the classroom messy. So it took a principal from Africa to say, “We’re going to have the meal first inside.” And [00:48:00] they had little monitors with the garbage cans. It’s just kind of put in me I want to get involved somehow with feeding people and I don’t know. Maybe that’ll be back in Chicago. I always said I’m not going to go back. Maybe I will. You shouldn’t say you should never so that’s kind of where I’m at now. JJ: Talking about feeding people -- RV: I saw it. JJ: The Young Lords were a gang. We talked about it (laughs) at Alcott and some other places at Water. But you were in Chicago during that time, in 1960, ’69. 34 �Maybe you were not interested in that politics but I mean, did you hear anything abut the Yong Lords changing any of the things that they did at all during that time? RV: You know, yeah, not as a kid. JJ: Okay. RV: Yeah. Yeah. If we heard the name Young Lords, it was kind of scary. JJ: So it was scary, it was a gang. RV: Yeah, it was scary even [00:49:00] though -- JJ: That was you growing up? RV: That was me growing up. And then even ’72 when I heard -- JJ: But in ’69 when they took over the church, you didn’t hear none of that or something? RV: Uh-uh, uh-uh. If we did, it was, yeah. It was really scary and we didn’t know why. JJ: So they still were looking at the gang -- RV: Yeah, yeah. JJ: -- at that time. Even though -- RV: It was for a purpose. JJ: Even though they were changing. RV: Yeah. JJ: They were transforming the -- RV: Yeah. If I had been older, I think -- JJ: So you always saw when you were younger as a gang. 35 �RV: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Because that’s, they had established themselves as a gang. RV: Well, and then, too, being younger. I mean, it’s not like I watched the news or read the paper or even heard about it so what we would hear would just, you know, rumor or be careful, that kind of thing. I think if again, if I had been older, if maybe, well, maybe you can talk to my sister. She would’ve known more. But when I did get older, when I got three or four years [00:50:00] older, I was very much into politics with the war and everything. So but at the time, at the time when I was -- it’s kind of ironic. I was right there in it and I didn’t know anything about what was going on. JJ: And that’s not, and that’s not strange. A lot of people, that’s (inaudible) explain they used to remember. RV: Yeah, that’s a good thing. Yeah, yeah. JJ: Yeah. You mentioned the war but what about the -- and you lived in an area that really didn’t change too much till later. RV: Right, after -- JJ: But the rest of Lincoln Park was changing in terms of the housing. Were you in the part, the group of people that felt it was a good change or...? Because they were getting rid of the gangs. They were getting rid of the Young Lords. RV: Yeah. JJ: So how did you feel about that? RV: I mean, [00:51:00] I think -- JJ: I mean how do you feel today because it’s -- 36 �RV: How do I feel today is of course it’s wrong. That’s, you can’t take people’s land. I mean, real estate, yeah. That’s great. That’s great business and you’re going to make more money but you can’t take people’s land. Our country’s kind of always done that. Kind of always just like, “That’s prime real estate. I want that, I’ll take that, I’ll call it something.” You kind of -- JJ: I mean growing up in that area? RV: In that area, yeah. JJ: How did you feel? RV: Yeah -- JJ: Besides the political stuff. How did you -- RV: It was mostly, it was mostly people owned their home or rent, a lot of people rented. You stayed in the same apartment. People didn’t own cars. You walked or took the bus everywhere so our life just in that time was about to change. But while I was there, it was still, it was still -- JJ: Yeah, because it didn’t change because your area. Your area didn’t really change much. But did you know people from the other areas [00:52:00] where they changed or where it changed? I mean, did you lose any of your friends? RV: There was one building. I mean, Wrightwood and Mildred and then there was a couple houses and then there was a huge apartment building. It was like a cement building that took up maybe half the block and it was all Puerto Rican people lived there. Just it was just all, and that was being renovated. So you know, now that I think about it, where did they go? So yeah. I’m sure they’re just evicted and so it’s all nice now. 37 �JJ: And there was -- RV: It was all rundown then and it’s all, I couldn’t afford to live anywhere near there. JJ: It was all Puerto Rican and what was -- RV: That building was. JJ: -- that experienced this. RV: This was right on Wrightwood just Mildred and I don’t know what the other street would be. But if you right to the corner of Wrightwood and Mildred, you would see that. It was like one [00:53:00] building and then maybe a couple little houses. Huge cement building and I had schoolmates that lived there and everything so... JJ: One day, they were just told then to leave or...? RV: They must’ve been. I don’t, you know? They must’ve been. Maybe I would’ve been more aware of that if I hadn’t had -- JJ: But it was Puerto Ricans that were living there, basically. RV: Yeah, the whole building. Yeah. JJ: Did you see the neighborhood grow in numbers in terms of Puerto Ricans or...? And then dissipate or how did you see it? RV: So we moved right after I graduated so I didn’t see it but that I do remember was that building. So that would be very drastic. I don’t know where they would go. JJ: But you weren’t familiar with the other gangs. There was a group called the Aristocrats. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RV: I’ve heard of -- those are all familiar when I was watching the films. I [00:54:00] had heard of a lot of those, yeah. 38 �JJ: Okay, because they were actually in a Caucasian group but went by a Puerto Rican (laughs) named (inaudible) at that time. But he didn’t like the Puerto Ricans. (laughs) But I mean, we fought him. That was one of the only groups that (inaudible). Okay. So then you moved to the Quad Cities and that, you came back to Lincoln Park. Where did you work? I mean, where were some of the places that you worked? RV: When I came back, I was right out of high school. I worked at a place called [Follitt’s?] and it was a publishing place. I worked as a secretary. My friend got me a job there, that Fran got me a job there. Then I worked a couple other places, mostly just secretary jobs. I can’t remember the name of it and then I got pregnant, had my son, and then moved. JJ: Okay, so basically you worked at a couple of places doing the same thing or...? RV: Yeah. JJ: Was it [00:55:00] publishing or...? RV: No, just secretary work. JJ: Secretary. Secretary (inaudible). RV: Yeah. JJ: Okay. I think that we -- what do you think that we didn’t touch on? RV: What we did not touch on -- JJ: That we maybe should. RV: Hmm. I think we, I think that is, maybe I’ll think of some more later. But I thought of, I just had been thinking that there are a lot of things that I hadn’t thought about for a long time. Just kind of bringing a lot, bringing a lot up so it’s been an 39 �interesting -JJ: Like what, what do you mean? RV: Oh, just stuff about like I hadn’t thought about the Wednesday night so-- and that it was called Social Center. I hadn’t thought about that in just years. And so when you had mentioned it, it was like, “Yeah, I remember that now.” So it’s kind of interesting, mm-hmm. JJ: Well, I mean I remember going myself, [00:56:00] going to that. (inaudible) But I -- RV: So you lived far away from there, though, right? JJ: Yeah, we were further away. We had to walk to like the different gangs. There were different gangs to get to it. RV: Yeah, it was kind of a big deal. It must’ve -- JJ: So there was like a gang every, every other street in the middle of the street. So I mean, but you didn’t notice the gangs because you were more in the house or did you notice that there were gangs? RV: Yeah, toward, yeah. Toward the end, there were just more and more, yeah. JJ: More and more gangs all over the place. RV: Yeah. So you know, and I probably didn’t recognize them as gangs. I just knew they were on the corner and they were kind of scary and you just kind of -- JJ: Actually, yeah, they weren’t even called gangs at that time, they were just on the corner. RV: they were just on the corner, they were just hanging out on the corner in their, you just kind of had to -- 40 �JJ: So what do you mean they were hanging out on the corner? What do you mean? RV: Just standing around, you know. You kind of had to -- JJ: Like a hotdog stand or something like that? RV: No, just out in front of a store or something [00:57:00] and -- JJ: In front of a store. RV: Yeah, yeah. So yeah. JJ: So you would see large groups of people in front of a store or...? RV: Yeah, sometimes. JJ: When you say large, what do you mean? When I say large? RV: When you say large, you know, six. It’s not like, “Hey, what are you doing?” And two people are standing there taking. They were just kind of hanging out. JJ: So that was going on through Lincon Park. They had different groups there. RV: Yeah, I can remember walking and then there’s a corner and it’s just like you got to, you got to get past it so I just -- JJ: You got to get past it. RV: Yeah, yeah. You just got to get -- JJ: But for a woman, especially, you got to get -- RV: Yeah, you got to get, you got to get a look on your face and it’s you don’t have to be, you can’t be scared. You’re just like, “Uh-uh. I’m going.” Like keep walking and so that’s how you get past it. Just let -- JJ: Just don’t be scared. I’m sure that you’re -- RV: Don’t show that, kind of just don’t show that I, yeah, I know you’re there but I’m 41 �going this way kind of thing. But so I [00:58:00] do remember that. Just you’d walk for a while and then you’d be like, “All right, I got to get past this corner,” so... JJ: You mean for a woman that she’s walking and then a bunch of guys are there? RV: Oh yeah. JJ: They start making comments and...? RV: Yeah. JJ: So how did you’re feeling? You’re walking because nobody is really driving, right? They’re walking. RV: Yeah, walking. You know, you’re kind of used to it but kind of scared. But it’s angry. I was angry because of what was going on in the home and it’s just, I think that showed. I was just real angry and just dismissing it. I’m walking by. Maybe because a lot of it was like (catcalling noises), you know? (laughs) Just (catcalling noises), you know? Just kind of... And maybe if I hadn’t had all that, I just felt like I had [00:59:00] to protect myself so I wasn’t sexually abused. I was physically beaten but I was tough. It’s like you’re not touching me that way. And so as I came past all that, maybe I would’ve been flattered or something if I hadn’t had all that to deal with. Not flattered but you know what I’m saying. I wouldn’t have just been so angry about it. But when that would happen, I would just -- and I don’t think they weren’t looking for just a crazy woman (laughs) to just, “Oh, she’s going to turn on me and she’s going to go crazy,” because that’s how I felt. I just felt like if you touch me, I’m just going to coming at you with hands. Ah!” (laughs) I think they went, “That was a crazy woman.” Yeah, so but 42 �yeah, it was just a lot of that coming up every time I would deal with that. JJ: So you see these people on the corner and they’re mooching or whatever with their lips and you’re identifying with [01:00:00] stuff that’s going on in your home. RV: Yeah, just kind of reminded -- JJ: Some sexual issues that it was reminding you. RV: Yeah, reminding me of that. JJ: So now you’re angry and that actually helped you. RV: I think it did just on the street just walking around on the street. I think it did. And -- JJ: Otherwise you would’ve been, it would’ve been like flat-out abusive. RV: Well, it could. I mean, it could if it were like guys I knew or something. It’d be like, you know, but I just I had a lot of fear and anger and having to deal with the issues when I saw that. I’m not saying that now if that happened or then but if you’re a young girl and a young guy is saying something like, “Oh.” You wouldn’t have all that bottled-up emotion I don’t think. I think it had more to do with what I was doing. But yeah, definitely I’m sure it helped me. I’m not sure about my mental health but my safety [01:01:00] on the street, yeah. JJ: But now you’re, some of these Spanish guys, right? Spanish-speaking guys. RV: Mm, yeah, sometimes, yeah. JJ: But you’re being looked at but you’re, in your mind, you’re also being look like they think that you’re Spanish. That’s what -- RV: I’m sure. JJ: So I mean did you feel like that? Like I don’t have to worry because at least they 43 �know I’m -RV: No, I wasn’t, I wasn’t going that deep with it. It was just -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RV: Yeah, no, I was, I didn’t think of it that way. I was just thinking more my own issues, I think. Just my own issues. I’m just -- yeah. Just kind of flashing back, flashing back to my own issues. JJ: Just normal, just normal issues. RV: Well, the normal abusive home issues but I grew up with everybody. I didn’t think, “Oh my God, these are hillbillies, (laughs) oh my God, these are Spanish.” JJ: You didn’t live with them, you didn’t (inaudible) [01:02:00] them. RV: They were just men. They were guys, they were kids. JJ: Okay, so like you said before, you just grew up this is a, this is a, these are just my friends. When I go home -- RV: Yeah, they’re just people. But then after the life I was leading as a child in that home, then I had a lot of anger issues. And so if a man was or a male was just normal flirting or just whatever, it was like a very kind of flashing back. I sound like a crazy (laughs) -- JJ: No. RV: I dealt with it but yeah, so that’s, so I do have, I do have memories of that walking down the street so... JJ: Now, was that a normal thing, a common? When I say normal, I mean was it a common thing for other women to go through the same thing in Lincoln Park at that time or...? 44 �RV: Probably. Probably. JJ: Do you think it was common or are you saying that now or at that time? RV: No, I think at that time, [01:03:00] yeah. JJ: So you mean the other women were saying they were being abused by their stepfathers? RV: Oh, I thought you meant, oh, I thought the whistling and stuff. JJ: No, I mean the whistling and all that, the whole thing. RV: Yeah, that was, that was common. Nobody thought anything of that. I don’t know because nothing was ever talked about; Now we’re just very free. I mean, here I am, I’m talking about it. I don’t care. JJ: Right. RV: Because it’s just you talk about it. It’s interesting because this weekend, we have something called Boneyard Art Festival. I used to have an art gallery in, sugar arts gallery in downtown Urbana and one of the exhibits or women were talking about sexual abuse and the abuse in their life. They were talking about it’s kind of ironic that here I am. I was thinking, “Oh, that would be interesting to talk about.” But it’s really freely, we’re more talk about it now. Then, you did not talk about it. You were bringing shame to the family, it was a shame, [01:04:00] just don’t talk about anything. So I’m sure -- JJ: At that time, it was shameful to -- RV: Yeah. JJ: -- to even mention. RV: And you didn’t talk about anything. Nobody talked about it. 45 �JJ: And nobody knew what was going on or -- RV: Uh-uh, nobody. JJ: -- it doesn’t matter? RV: Yeah, yeah. JJ: But now, we know that it was going on. RV: I think it was going on a lot. I don’t see that all of a sudden, it just -- I think people are just talking about, talking about their childhoods. It’s the age that the Baby Boomers are getting now where you’re like, “You know what? I’ve got a grandbaby now.” So I think it’s, I think it’s the age. You will get to a certain age and then you will talk about. And there’s forgiveness that comes with age. There’s forgiveness. I can look at a lot and I see how young they were. I mean, like how old were you when you were like 16, maybe? You’re like, you know, your kids, you’re young guys. You’re [01:05:00] just -- I raised three sons so I can look at it different now, yeah. JJ: Okay. Anything else that we need to tell me about? That’s significant about that point at Lincoln Park at that time? RV: Yeah, I just walked to the, walked to the beach every day. Walked to the -- JJ: Yeah, how was the beach? What -- RV: It was nice. You know what I noticed about the beach? We would always go to Fullerton Beach because it was the first one. Because you had to walk a long way to get there. It was hot. When we got there, I remember the water really clear and really cold. Walk across the hot sand. JJ: You went to the beach area, not the, not the -- 46 �RV: Uh-uh. To the beach. And then as we got older, we had to go further and further down because it was, the water was muddier, cloudy. We had to really walk, keep walking and walking and walking till you got clearer water so it was, you could see [01:06:00] the pollution. We didn’t know it was pollution at the time. We just want the water so... JJ: Now, did you see friends there once you got there or...? RV: Mm-hmm, yeah. Kind of everybody made a day of it and -- JJ: So the neighborhood used to go over there. RV: Yeah. And -- JJ: People knew each other. RV: Mm-hmm. Or if we didn’t do that, sometimes they’d like turn a hose on and let the kids run through and stuff. JJ: In the neighborhood, just turn the -- what about police? Would they come by and turn it off or...? RV: Yeah. (laughter) JJ: But the neighborhood kids did it (inaudible) and they understood. RV: Yeah. JJ: So you went to the beach. What, did you go to the theaters or anything like that? RV: Yeah, the Biograph. JJ: So you’d still go to the Biograph? RV: Yeah. I went to the Biograph, Century. I went to the Century recently here and it’s kind of a big mall or something. But yeah, I went to the Biograph a lot. JJ: Well, how was the Biograph? Was there any neighborhood kids at the Biograph? 47 �RV: Yeah, all the time. I think I saw Jerry Lewis there. JJ: Oh, you saw Jerry Lewis there? RV: I think I saw Jerry Lewis there, but -- JJ: He was my favorite (laughs) -- RV: Me, too. You know, [01:07:00] I’ve always liked it -- JJ: He’s a great (inaudible) -- RV: I know, yeah. JJ: But we used to stand at the piano and all that other stuff. RV: Yeah, yeah. JJ: But now, we used to go to the Biograph, too, so that’s what I’m saying. So that it was a neighborhood theater and everybody knew each other. RV: Mm-hmm, yeah. There was another one, the Crest Theater? JJ: You said the Century, too. RV: Century, yeah. JJ: That was on -- RV: That was a bigger one. JJ: That was on Clark, right? RV: On Clark, yeah. I think. The Crest was kind of a dump, kind of a dump. JJ: I’m not sure Clark or was that, yeah, that was Clark or Broadway or I don’t know, one of those streets. What was the other one, the Crest? RV: The Crest. That one we didn’t, we didn’t go to much because it was kind of rundown. We didn’t -- yeah, it was just kind of down. But wasn’t there a gangster shot behind the Biograph or something? Is that where the -- 48 �JJ: Right, right, yeah. Dillinger was shot, Dillinger -- RV: Or was that the Valentine’s Day Massacre or something like that? JJ: No, no. Well, the Valentine’s Day Massacre was on Webster and Clark. RV: Oh, [01:08:00] okay. JJ: But the Dillinger was killed right back in the alley when he came out. RV: Yeah, yeah. JJ: But we didn’t remember just when they played West Side Story. That’s when we got the purple shirts. RV: Oh, yeah -- JJ: When we were seeing West Side Story. RV: -- I remember seeing West Side Story. We liked that. That was -- JJ: But we had a gang fight (laughs) when we went. They showed it so you know. But yeah, we used to go to that all the time. But it’s funny because you’re coming from the northern part of Lincoln Park and we’re coming from the southern part and meeting at the Biograph. RV: Yeah, because that’s where -- I mean, it wasn’t like there were a lot of places to go back when -- there were just a few, so yeah. JJ: But were you, during the high school period, you weren’t in town so -- RV: No but you know -- JJ: But your sister, where did she go to the dances then? Because there were other halls, right? Dance halls besides the Aragon? RV: Aragon Ball Room I think. JJ: Oh, the Aragon? 49 �RV: [01:09:00] Yeah, yeah. JJ: The Aragon? RV: It was in Uptown or something? JJ: Yeah. So you (inaudible). RV: Mm-hmm. Well, when I was in high school, I would take the train and then come back to visit my friends because I just didn’t make many friends in the Quad Cities. So I would come back and then that’s kind of when we would walk around Old Town so that would be maybe ’60. I just remember that, like ’68 or -9. JJ: Okay, you were still hanging out at that time. We had our (inaudible) there. RV: Yeah. So mm-hmm. JJ: Yeah, so that’s kind of you were going to the same spots as the Young Lords were going to but you weren’t looking at is as a gang, just a bunch of -- RV: Just the, yeah, people from the neighborhood. JJ: Just the neighborhood, just the people from the neighborhood. RV: Yeah. They were just kind of older just like I was so yeah. JJ: Okay. Well, that’s interesting. I didn’t, and we didn’t really call ourselves a gang till the media started using it and then turned it around. RV: Yeah, yeah. JJ: It was just the neighborhood youth growing up. RV: It was. It was like [01:10:00] me with my friends. You don’t sit in the house. I mean, there wasn’t that much great TV, I mean, they’re, you just go outside and walk. And one time, I was a little girl, that’s what you do. You go out and play in the gangway or you just jump rope. You’re always in the gangway playing. You 50 �play outside till it’s dark and then you come in so that’s what you do. You just go out. JJ: And that’s interesting because I called it more like a gang because I was in the leadership of it and some of the other core members call ourselves the gang. But the rest of the people were just people from the neighborhood -- RV: Friends, yeah. JJ: -- that we got along together and didn’t call it a gang. So I’m glad that you said that. RV: Yeah, they’re you’re friends, they’re you’re friends. And -- JJ: So you saw it as just friends and that was it. RV: I saw it as friends and like for me personally, I was, it was, I really couldn’t connect with my family and my sisters kind of distant. JJ: Because of what was going on? RV: What was going on. And my little sister was a baby so I watched her. [01:11:00] She was seven years younger. But my friends were pretty much my family. JJ: You watched her, what do you mean? You protected her? RV: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Okay. RV: But my friends were pretty much closer than my family so yeah. JJ: So your friends were like closer? They were like a family. RV: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I grew up with them from the time I was in kindergarten and we just knew everything about each other except what was going on that I keep. And you know, but as far as just being able to trust them, I could trust them more. 51 �JJ: Okay, so you talked about forgiveness. What about your stepfather, where’s he at? RV: He’s still alive and taking care of my mom. And yeah, I just -- JJ: Oh, so they are together. They’re together. RV: Yeah, they’re together. Yeah, she stayed with him. And yeah, I’ve forgiven him. I just feel like the [01:12:00] things that happen to me weren’t so much a part of me. It’s like the bad things, if you hold onto it, that’s what makes it a part of you. So I got saved when I was about 30 years old. I always knew about Jesus; I always prayed. I’d be on the street like, “Oh God, oh God.” (laughs) But I accepted him and I just, when I was 30 and then recently recommitted. And all through that time, through the divorce and through the childhood, I just feel that the releasing that, just letting that go. You’re not saying that what they did was okay. You’re just saying, “I’m just going to give that to God because he’s the one that can judge, not me.” I really, I think that’s what’s really helped me just keep a clear head. You know, I’m listening to this story I’m telling here. I’m like, “Man, that’s got to be one messed-up person,” but I just feel like I think forgiveness [01:13:00] is important but also taking responsibility and doing something. Just trying to do something good. I’ll carry these around. Here, I got one for you. I make this guy. It’s like, “I’ll carry them around and I’ll give them away.” Just like here’s a cookie. Just something good. Yeah, I think if you hold things in, especially things that were done to you or injustices that are done to you, then you kind of identify with that person who’s doing it. So you have, you know, I think’s good to release it and forgive them and then do something different. I’m 52 �going to do the opposite, I’m going to do something good. It sounds like what you guys do. It sounds like what you did so I agree with that. Maybe we came up in the same place so we learned the same place so we learned the same lesson. (shrugs shoulders) I don’t know. JJ: Okay, any final words? RV: (waves) Hey, everybody. JJ: (laughs) RV: Bye-bye. (laughs) (break in audio) [01:14:00] JJ: Because I just want t ask you I know that your nickname is Buffy and I have nicknames and a lot of people had nicknames at that time. So how, some nicknames are given like negative. Like mine was negative. RV: I was going to ask you. JJ: So how did you get your -- you were going to ask me that? RV: Well, I was going to ask you but I was going, I thought to myself with a name like Buffy, I don’t have the right to say, “How’d you get the name Cha-Cha?” But it was some friends of mine gave me that name. And just because I was always serious and just efficient and get the job done. We just had a period of time at our church where it was like this laughter thing was happening and I was just like, “Oh, just call me Buffy.” Because it was like pff, you know? But then it was like it kind of stuck. It was like, “No, that’s a good,” [01:15:00] you know. So we just, but how did you get the name Cha-Cha? JJ: So okay, I’ll tell you. So you were kind of the serious type at that time? 53 �RV: Yeah. JJ: And they didn’t like that or...? RV: No, we just, we, it’s kind of hard to explain. Our church went through a time where there was this laughter thing that would just happen. Just like this lightness that was happening. So at, a lot of that just washed away and I just, I felt like I wasn’t being productive. But it was just more of a, I think it was just more of a spiritual, just a cleansing and a joy coming. So -- JJ: But you actually chose your name. RV: No, God started calling me that. (laughs) JJ: Okay, God -- okay. RV: Yeah, yeah. So -- JJ: God chose it at the church -- RV: Yeah. JJ: But and then -- RV: And you know, it stuck. It just -- JJ: You told people to, you told people to start using it. RV: Yeah. Well, my friends just started, yeah, just started. Yeah, just calling -- JJ: Because you could, so you actually picked it yourself so it was -- RV: Well, I kind of heard [00:16:00] it so -- JJ: From God. RV: Yeah. JJ: Okay. Okay. I’ll go with that, I’ll go with that. RV: I didn’t want to come out and say I heard it but I did. 54 �JJ: I’ll go with that. So mine is, some people, their nicknames are done in a negative sense. Like if your eyes are big or something they might say frog or something like that or -- RV: Yeah. Is that within gang, kind of gang? JJ: Within the gang or if you’re light-skinned, they might call you Casper the friendly ghost or that kind of stuff. Actually, Orlando did that to me. He was calling me that for a little bit. But actually -- RV: But it’s okay from a friend, yeah. JJ: But it was a sweet from a friend, it was a sweet, yeah. But what happened is when I first came to Lincoln Park, the neighborhood was changing from Caucasian to Latino, Caucasian meaning different ethnic minorities. And so it was like you were talking earlier. This guy had names for everybody. So for the Blacks, he had [Sambu?]. [01:17:00] There were gypsies there, (laughs) there were hillbillies, pork and beans, they would call them pork and beans. RV: (laughs) Yeah, I heard all that. Yeah. JJ: And so for me, for me, called me a [cha-cha boo?] from the dancing MF. I was just a little kid. This guy was a big Irish guy and all that. But I mean I did get him later for it -- RV: (laughs) Yeah. JJ: But he started calling me cha-cha bull MF and then as Latinos came in, I started kind of liking the name Cha-Cha. I think related to the Latino thing like -- RV: Embracing it. JJ: -- kind of what you’re saying, embracing it. So the Latinos started calling me 55 �Cha-Cha. RV: That’s really good. JJ: It stayed with me but I keep it because it reminds me of the racism but then also, it’s part of Latino culture to be more informal than formal. So I like to, I use it. Some people use my regular [01:18:00] name. And then I’ll use José Jiménez even though my sisters call me Joseph. I used to get upset with them. I said, “Wait a minute, I’m José Jiménez, I’m trying to get back to my roots.” But that is my real name. It was changed in the school system where they couldn’t pronounce it so they called me Joseph. You’re an American, you’re Joseph. That kind of stuff. RV: Yeah, kind of like Ellis Island, yeah. JJ: But it, so I, so I, yeah. So I’m, so I would go back to Puerto Rico, coming back here is when I became, got more cultural. Instead of using José Jiménez, and I kept the nickname Cha-Cha. Because people couldn’t pronounce José Jiménez, either, so Cha-Cha was easier to -- RV: That’s cool. JJ: But now, I’m doing my own interview. I don’t want to (laughs) but so -- RV: Oh, I wanted to know. JJ: So hopefully, that was a good way. RV: I’m glad you told me. I’m glad I asked. JJ: Okay. That was (laughter) yeah, yeah. END OF VIDEO FILE 56 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6c6e9d7f290f4672e8eb4132feb3895b.mp4 415dcc2beccd119eb3f262d68b8299db Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Rebecca “Buffy” Vance vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Vance_Rebecca Title A name given to the resource Rebecca “Buffy” Vance interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vance, Rebecca Description An account of the resource Rebecca “Buffy” Vance was friends with “Stony,” who was a white southerner and one of the main Young Lords from the Wieland branch of the group before they became human rights activists for Latinos and the poor. Stony was about 17-years-old then and lived across from Wieland on North Avenue. His sisters became members of the auxiliary group, the Young Lordettes. Wieland culture was completely different from the culture at Halsted and Dickens and Burling and Armitage where the other main group of Young Lords hung out. The difference was that on Wieland and North Avenue, they did not have to share space with the other Puerto Rican Clubs of Lincoln Park. Pockets of Puerto Ricans left behind from the destruction wrought by urban renewal in the Puerto Rican barrio of La Clark were still around then. Wieland Street was one of the streets that still survived. Masao Yamasaki, a man of Japanese descent, became friends with Stony and other Young lords and tried to help them with counseling and guidance. Mr. Yamasaki did this through the YMCA, where Young Lords would go for swimming and basketball. He owned a factory and started providing a few of them, including Stony, with jobs. And Stony remained in his packaging company for years, becoming a supervisor for the company. Ms. Vance was never in the Young Lords but grew up in Lincoln Park and attended Alcott Elementary at 2625 North Orchard. Alcott School then had an after school program that would supervise the youth at night to keep them out of trouble and off the streets. A few of the Young Lords attended Alcott and spread the word about the program. They would have to walk 8 to 10 blocks to attend but it did help some of them as they participated in sports, arts and crafts, and other activities. There were also the social dances, where youth danced to tunes such as “Wipe-out,” “Twine Time,” “Monkey Time,” and “Louie Louie.” Today Ms. Vance today works at the University of Illinois Circle Campus as Assistant to Communications and Development and Alumni Relations. Prior to joining the College of Law, she worked as a development Secretary for Will AM-FM-TV. Ms. Vance has also worked at Amdocs Inc. and in benefit planning. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2a60020318c85c099571f5a7a8de1784.pdf fd62af727cadb01b7e12d8aaa778aea6 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Vincent Vaca Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/8/2013 Runtime: 00:56:31 Biography and Description Oral history of Vincent Vaca, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on May 8, 2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: -- when you were born and stuff like that. VINCENT VACA: I should set a new chapter for -- JJ: I’m not asking, when we -- VV: See, I call it Chapter Four because one through three are boring so the kids said all the good stuff after. JJ: -- we don’t need, we don’t need the social security ID. VV: You don’t need that, huh? JJ: Okay. VV: Thumbprint? JJ: Okay, then, Chapter Four. Okay, but just give me, I guess, your full name and where you were born. VV: Okay, my legal name is [Vincent Zachary Sidi Vaca?]. I’ve used various nom de guerres like [Chinta Quinte?], [Vince de Vaca?]. And I don’t use [Cavés la Vaca?] but so my family comes from New Mexico, both my mother and father’s side, and they can trace themselves back to 1598 with the Oñate Expedition. And -- JJ: What is that? What do you mean? VV: That’s the founding of the Spanish colony of New Mexico. JJ: Okay. VV: One of the first permanent colony, European colony, in [00:01:00] what is now the United States. So my family has continuously lived in what is now the United States for nine years before Jamestown, what, 22 years before Plymouth Colony. 1 �So who’s the illegal alien, pilgrim? (laughter) But then we got a lot of Indian, too. The fox got into the hen house a couple of times during the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 and with my grandma in the 1920s. (laughs) JJ: And what do you, what kind of, what kind of work do you do now? VV: I’m a college professor now. I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years. I started out the first nine years, I did part-time work in community colleges and until I finished my dissertation at the University of California [00:02:00] San Diego. And hooked up with a tenured-track position in Denver, Colorado, where I’ve been for the last 20 years. My parents got married in New Mexico, I was conceived in New Mexico. But because of the, World War II, a lot of his family had moved to San Diego so technically, I was born in California, San Diego, California, 1950. JJ: Okay. VV: And San Diego and Tijuana were very different than they are now. My dissertation was on Tijuana and 100 years ago, there were less than 1,000 people living in Tijuana. Now, there’s a million and a half. Pretty much using the same utilities, (laughs) the same sewer lines and things like that and San Diego has grown. There are more people in San Diego County than in the whole state of Colorado. JJ: Okay, and Vince, when [00:03:00] we were talking about 60, just 60 and you talk about the Brown Berets and then what? VV: Yeah, well, my political education comes from my family, too, because my maternal grandfather was a Democratic, he was a Democratic nominee for 2 �Franklin Rosevelt in 1940 election. And on my father’s side, [Jesse Kilsa de Vaca?], was the first Latino elected state governor in US history. He was elected as a Democrat. He was a, it was the first time he ever ran as a Democrat because before that, he was in the populist party of the Pueblo del Partido. It was kind of like IRA, [Féin Sinn?], the above-ground legal organization and then the illegal, underground terrorist group. The Pueblo [00:04:00] del Partido was the legal group. He edit, wrote newspaper articles and was a politician to restore stolen lands to the, to northern New Mexico villages while the Gorras Blancas were out there hanging people, burning down Santa Fe ring property and generally. So I have, I was raised on that. I had, the grandson of the governor was Donaldo “Tiny” Martinez who was the founder of the Mama Lucy faction in New Mexico politics. Which was a proto-Chicano, Left-wing faction within the state Democratic party that was very pro-Raza. And so we used to meet at Mama Lucy’s restaurant, that’s where they got the name. So I cut my teeth as a kid all my life on politics. But when I in high school [00:05:00] in 1968 with the world in flames, the Tet Offensive, Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King, the Chicago Convention, all hell was breaking loose and I was about to go join the Marine Corps. Until March of my senior year, I hadn’t even applied to college. College recruiters came and recruited me to go to the brand-new university in UCSD up in La Jolla. But I had, was already helping to organize anti-war protests at my high school before I, and I was almost expelled because of that so... JJ: What school was that? 3 �VV: Stephen Watts Kearney High School in San Diego. Not far from where USD is located up there in Kearney Mesa, Linda Vista, military working-class community. But I quickly over the summer went to participated in [00:06:00] their summer program and so Israel Chávez was one of my first mentors as well as Angela Davis. The Black and the Black Student Council and MAYA, the Mexican American Youth Association, had a coalition on campus and they were mentoring all of the new freshman incoming Black and Brown students primarily from San Diego County but there were some, a few from Los Angeles, also. So I quickly became, my consciousness was raised, I guess. I had to decolonize my Spanish mentality and begin to adopt a more Mexican/Chicano perspective. So I still remember that first semester, Eldridge Cleaver have been fired [00:07:00] by Governor Reagan and he was going up and down the state giving speeches at the University of California. It was probably the first semester, first quarter and he filled up the gym. All he was saying after he made these loud criticisms of Ronald Reagan, he said, “Let’s be, let’s chant.” And he did this chant everywhere and everybody knew what was coming. He rocked the house for about half an hour leading a chant, “Fuck Ronald Reagan.” It kept escalating until the rafters were shaking. This was Angela Davis’ last year there and we, by the spring, Black Student Council and MAYA had written a proposal to take over a college which we had, [00:08:00] we wrote something the Lumumba-Zapata Demands in collaboration. There were no Chicano faculty but we adopted this Spaniard who was married to a Guatemalan woman rai-- and they grew up in, he 4 �was a Spanish émigré in Mexico, [Carlos Blanco?]. He became a, the MAYA faculty advisor and there was some Black chemist -JJ: Joe Watson. VV: [Joe Watson?]. I won’t editorialize. They’re both still alive. So we designed the takeover of one of the colleges within the University of California San Diego and we would engage in a, many years of struggle. Kind of fruitless, pointless, [00:09:00] a lot of protests, a lot of people’s careers were ruined. After five years of doing that and joining the Brown Berets so we were active on campus and in the communities and up and down the state. At one point, I was even spent the summer in San Antonio, Texas, as a volunteer for La Raza Unida Party. So I had, I maintained my contacts with my family in New Mexico and when the Brown Berets in ’73 did their Marcha de la Reconquista from California to Texas, I called up my father and I called up our cousin [Tiny?] who was speaker of the house in the state legislature. He had the New Mexico State Police meet the Brown Berets at Gallup and escort them all the way across the state so that nobody would mess with them. To protect them and find them a place in the middle of winter where they could crash [00:10:00] and get some food, some warm clothing. So it was a very proactive escort; It wasn’t like trying to control them or anything like that. One of old compadres, [Jeronimo Blanco?], has very fond memories of how, what Tiny did to help the Brown Berets. M2: How long did you stay in the Brown Berets and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 5 �VV: Let’s see. I officially was in the Brown Berets from about early 19-- mid-1969 until I think it was mid-1971. Also before that, because of all the campus activity, I was also, we formed an organization called Católicos por La Raza where we seized Camp Oliver. There was a Chicano conference going on and they figured not [00:11:00] only do we have to rattle the cage of American society, we needed to rattle the cage of the Catholic church because they had been screwing over our people, too. So they called us in after a week so they said, “We need the hard-heads,” so a bunch of us Brown Berets went and occupied the campground for about a week or two before The Sisters of Mercy showed us no mercy and called the San Diego County sheriffs and had us all arrested. So that began a struggle which San Diego State has archives, films, with me sitting right next to the bishop, [Bishop Buddy?]. I didn’t remember any of those videotapes at all. But people in LA would pick up on that idea and two months later, the LA branch of Católicos por La Raza took over St. Basil’s church during midnight mass. And they completely disrupted [00:12:00] the Christmas services, it turned into a big, old riot, all kinds of people got arrested. (laughs) Priests got their bloody noses and ah, that was a -- I had nothing to do with that, though. M2: That’s recorded in The Revolt of the Cockroach People by Oscar Zeta Acosta. VV: Yeah. Because Zeta Acosta was a lawyer. JJ: Where was it recorded again? VV: Revolt of the Cockroach People written by Oscar Zeta Acosta. He was one of the few Chicano lawyers that they had up in LA. So he was at the [Biltmore 13?], [Los Tres de la Raza?]. Oscar Zeta Acosta was a -- 6 �JJ: Los Tres de la Raza, who are they? VV: They were in San Francisco at the time and they were, I think this one poster here mentions Los Tres, Free Los Tres de la Raza. They were some Latinos who were being persecuted [00:13:00] in the San Francisco area just like the Panthers and the Brown Berets. It’s hard to talk about those things. David Hilliard just spoke at my campus in Denver with his book, his latest book, about two months ago and he mentioned how the Panthers were really had a proactive, positive agenda to deal with the immediate social and economic needs of the community. Violence was the last thing on their mind. And in their 15-Point Program, I forget how many points there were, but point number eight calls for defense of the community. After establishing free public health, free housing, childcare for preschoolers, and all these other things which are now federal policies today. So the last thing they wanted was confrontation [00:14:00] but he mentioned in the first phase of the Black Panthers, over 50 Panthers were killed by police from the East Coast to the West Coast during the period of the ’60s and early ’70s. The Brown Berets, there were a number of Brown Berets. In Denver alone, we have the eight martyrs, Los Seis de Boulder. One of those was a Brown Beret and Ricardo Falcón was on his way to a Raza Unida conference. JJ: So what happened there? VV: That’s a long and involved but he was on his way from Denver to El Paso to attend the Raza Unida convention. And his car was overheating and he stopped at a gas station and some redneck cracker didn’t like these uppity Mexicans. You know, “Can I use water to cook off my radiator?” And, [00:15:00] “No, get out of 7 �here, you wetbacks.” So Ricardo Falcón walked into the, into this gas station. The guy pulled out a .357 Magnum and blew him away with no warning. He left a 17-year-old widow and a young, little child behind. Priscilla Falcón is still mad (laughs) 40 years later. So there were a lot of Chicano martyrs all over, too, and there were a lot of infiltrators. Here’s a picture of [Jesús Manny López?], an officer in the San Diego Police Department. JJ: Can you lift it up a little bit? VV: Yeah. That’s him right in the middle. This is August 29th, the San Diego Brown Berets in East Los Angeles. There he is holding up the flag of Aztlán. By this [00:16:00] point, our security had gone all to hell and most of the serious members had left the organization because we realized our sec-- that the FBI and the police had broken our security and we knew it was a matter of time. This guy alone ended up arresting 50 of our Brown Berets on felonies. Total setup through COINTELPRO, the Counter Intelligence Program operated by the FBI in conjunction with local police. This guy was a son of a, an SOB. I use him in class as a, as an example of what happens to real traitors because he would buy liquor and drunks and drive our teenage members around so that he could dig in and, “He’s a good guy.” Next thing you know, he’s loaning [Mike Nala?], the president of the Brown Berets, this guy right [00:17:00] here, he loans him a couple of hundred bucks. He loans him a couple of hundred bucks and the next thing, I show up to a meeting right before August 29th, and the police officer has the entire membership list. Me and [Izzy?] were telling each other as we walked in and told him our names and he checks off our name on the membership list. 8 �We said, “Didn’t we reject this guy? He didn’t pass security and now, he’s got the whole membership list.” So a lot of the more mature members just bailed out. August 29th was a mess. JJ: Why was it a mess? VV: It was a setup. I’ve talked to members of the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s. They set up a ambush for the Chicano Movement. On that one day, August 29th, two Brown Berets were killed. JJ: This was in what town? VV: In East Los Angeles. There was a Chicano Moratorium [00:18:00] against the Vietnam War and we had been have, staging local anti-war protests leading up to this big march in the East LA. So we had people from all over the Southwest, Texas, Colorado, and after a little incident where allegedly some people stole some beers, they called (inaudible) out. I think half the LA county sheriffs and half of the Los Angeles Police Department showed up in complete riot gear at the time and they just starting clubbing, tear-gassing everybody. By the time the day was over, two Brown Berets had been shot to death and Rubin Salazar was killed out on a, in a bar in Whittier Boulevard after a sheriff’s deputy fired a tear-gas cannister that was about that long into a [00:19:00] crowded bar, went up, banked off the ceiling, hit him in the head and took off half of Ruben Salazar’s head is the way it’s described in that documentary Chicano! We felt that the state had declared war on the Chicano Movement so you kill me, we kill you. East LA was under martial law. JJ: So this is the Brown Berets you’re saying this? 9 �VV: The entire Chicano Movement. JJ: Okay. VV: The way I put it in perspective, there were five million Mexican Americans in the United States legally according to the 1970 census. If it is true that 10 to 15 percent of all Mexican Americans identified as Chicano, then we had a small little group of about half a million Chicanos in the United States. Not all of them were die-hard Brown Berets or [00:20:00] militants committed to revolution or social change but some of them liked to dance in Aztec costumes, you know? What the hell. But when you get tear-gassed or your [jefita?] gets beat up by the cops, you get mad. So I think we could count on that and after East LA, we went back to our own home towns and we felt that the US government had declared war on us much like they had on the Puerto Ricans and the Black Panther Party and other groups and we wanted revenge. We were young and dumb and we overreacted and fell for their trap. It ended up where we became isolated. East Los Angeles was under martial law for the next six months and when Ruben Salazar, if you, we had about four major riots after August [00:21:00] 29th in East LA alone because Ruben Salazar’s funeral followed by September 16th, Mexican Independence Day, and the very last one was on January 31st, 1971. JJ: So you were involved, I mean you were -- VV: I was involved in all of them except the first one. JJ: I mean you were there, you were there. VV: I was there. JJ: Okay. 10 �VV: I was there. I was there. Because the Patriot Act, I’ll just admit that I was there. JJ: Okay, that’s cool. Okay. Now, the Chicano Moratorium. That was in East LA? Can you explain more about that? VV: Well, everybody was against the Vietnam War by that time. With Latinos, increasingly statistics were coming out that it was a poor man’s war. All the rich kids or [00:22:00] anybody with any money were getting deferments. All the chicken hocks. Did Romney go? No, Romney was on the beach writing big love-letter hearts on the beaches in France to his future wife. When if he was a real patriot and really supported the war against communism, he would’ve gone with other Americans and fought them in Vietnam or in other places. So increasingly, the people getting drafted into the military to fight Vietnam were lower class who had no other means. And a lot of Blacks, Indians, and Latinos. By 1970, it was estimated that 17 percent of all the deaths in Vietnam were Latino at a time when we were barely 6 percent of the entire population. Right now, the Supreme Court is ruling on whether or not we should [00:23:00] have affirmative action. They’re saying, “Oh, been there, done that. We’re postracial.” So we can’t get any benefits now that we’re much higher proportioned. Latinos are what, 14 percent of the population? Fourteen percent of everything this government doles out ought to go to the Latinos. But no, they want to get rid of affirmative action. But when it comes to war, we can die. In the first Gulf War, Iraq, and Afghanistan, currently about 14 percent of the deaths are Latinos so that’s fair. We’re 14 percent of the population, we’re 14 percent of the deaths. The opposite was the case in America in the ’70s. In Colorado, for instance, 70 11 �percent of all the people locked up in state prison in Colorado were white. Thirty percent were Black, Latino, and Indian. [00:24:00] Today, 70 percent of all the convicts in the state prisons are Black, Latino, and Indian, and only 30 percent are white. We should have affirmative action. We should make it a fair, level playing field and if 25 percent, 20 percent of the population is Latino, only 20 percent of the convicts should be Latino. (laughs) I don’t know. I love to play these mind games since they throw the statistics at us all the time. JJ: Going back a little bit if we can go back a little bit and since this is a, more like an oral history, when did you start getting politicized? I mean, when did that begin and how did that begin? VV: Well, I think I already touched on that. I think I really got politicized when I had, during the summer of 1968 when I started going to the university. Because that exposed me to [00:25:00] a lot of professors from around the world not only Angela Davis and Izzy Chávez. Izzy Chávez was half Puerto Rican, half Mexican on his mother’s side so he was very progressive. Angela Davis was on the Central Committee of the Black Panther Party at the time. She was also on the Central Committee of the US Communist Party. She held both, she was on the Central Committee of both those organizations at the same time while she was a graduate student at the university. One of the other people who helped us draft that document, that Lumumba-Zapata Demands, named after Patrice Lumumba, the famous, the famous socialist liberator of the Belgian Congo. And Emiliano Zapata, the great progressive leader of the Mexican Revolution, they were our [00:26:00] role models, our icons. We thought if they could sacrifice 12 �their life for their people, we could do no less. But another person was a man named Keith Lowe who would later become, he was part of the Michael Manley administration from, what was that, the island in the Caribbean, Jamaica? He was a diplomat at one point but he was also, I think, a treasury minister in the Michael Manley administration. Another progressive, Leftist regime that helped over-- or was it Haiti? No, it was Jamaica. M2: Jamaica. VV: It was Jamaica. So he was one of the first victims because when he left after we wrote those demands, his passport was not removed and he was barred from coming back to the United [00:27:00] States. As we became more and more -as I became more and more involved, I started seeing that there was a lot of truth to the fact that the United States does not tolerate people who disagree with the mainstream, with what the president wants done. You speak out against the Vietnam War, you become an enemy of the state. People paid with their lives. When I think of the ’60s, there are some people from the ’60s and ’70s who are still in prison. A lot of my comrades that were shot to death and not a single police officer was ever charged with any crimes. Coming from California, Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan, the two California presidents, they shredded the US Constitution. Nixon was allowed to resign and [00:28:00] then pardoned by his successor. What Ronald Reagan did during the Iran Contra incident and his secret war killing half a million Mayan Indians in Central America, that was genocide. That was all legal, nobody’s ever accused them of being traitors to humanity or traitors to the constitution but we’re the ones who end up because 13 �we fought for equality, democracy, and freedom, we’re the bad guys. I mean, in the ’60s, they called us every name in the book. Terrorists, domestic terrorists, traitors. We thought we were the real patriots and they were the traitors. And it’s hard to see now in hindsight because a lot of these battles are still being waged. We now call it the culture war in American society. We weren’t, [00:29:00] and I tell my class the only reason I can look you in the eyes and talk about this to you is because I never killed anybody. I messed some people up but and I might’ve done some things that could get me in some serious trouble if I were to ever give names and dates, but Ronald Reagan was responsible for the death of half a million people. How many people did Richard Nixon kill? Americans and Vietnamese, millions. Those guys didn’t go to prison. Nobody killed them. Nobody labels them terrorists except us. We’re the lone voice in the desert calling it like we see it and we paid the price. A lot of people paid the ultimate price. In 1962, there was a -- in California, Ronald Reagan as a governor expelled 20,00 radical students alone. [00:30:00] Not to mention that it was almost like the McCarthy era coming back. Faculty members were fired, denied tenure. People like Arturo Madrid gets fired from UCSD and gets hired the following year at Dartmouth with full tenure. And he go -- pardon? M2: In Minnesota. VV: In Minnesota, was it? Okay. Well, but there were a lot of other people who were just as good who ended up languishing, who ended up at community colleges and their whole academic careers ruined. Or people who went stone crazy. They went mad and have still not recovered from the insanity. Some of them, 14 �and I don’t know. I don’t know what -- maybe I’m just stubborn or something but I ended up in the Marines and that caused a whole nother ball of wax but -JJ: So how did -- VV: -- I’m rambling. JJ: How did you end up there? I mean, what was your decision? VV: [00:31:00] My decision was nobody would, nobody in the Chicano Movement would hire me. I went to the Chicano Federation in San Diego after we had taken over Chicano Park. We had taken over the big neighborhood house which is now the Laura Rodriguez Chicano Community Clinic. At Chicano Park, they wanted to build a California highway patrol substation. There were no parks, there were no clinics, there was nothing for our community. All they did was keep dividing us building freeways, throwing in junk yards. JJ: So a group of people got together? VV: So the Brown Berets and MEChA students led those takeovers. I still remember this is about the time when I left the Brown Berets because there, all discipline had gone to hell and we were occupying and surrounded by the San Diego Police Department 724 while [00:32:00] we were inside this building occupying it. At one point, Alpha 66, a Right-wing, Cuban terrorist organization, many of them had been fugitives from the Bay of Pigs invasion, had been allowed by the police department to try and burn us out. They went to the back of the building and Molotov cocktails on the handball courts, the wooden handball courts, and the building started to go up. The police didn’t call the Fire Department; They were actually out in front laughing thinking that the smoke or the fire would force us 15 �out. But it didn’t. We threw water on it and put it out ourselves. But we were armed, they were armed. JJ: How did you know it was Alpha 66? VV: Well, we saw them and we recognized them from other demonstrations because they were constantly following us. Whenever we had public, [00:33:00] whenever we showed up to join with the United Farm Workers’ pickets, we would have these counter protestors out there. And especially after 1975 when the Vietnam War ended, they added all these Right-wing Vietnamese to the ranks of the, of Alpha 66. JJ: So they were -- VV: They were stone, John Birchers, neo-Nazis -- JJ: They were doing counter- -- VV: Cuban -- JJ: -- demonstrations? VV: Yeah, and they were trying to pick fights with us to provoke violence. They were with the support of the US government, they were being allowed to attack people. JJ: How do you know they were being supported by the US government? VV: Well, some of this came out in San Diego with the, we were doing, what was the name of that organization? We were doing counseling with the Marines up at Camp Pendleton and at one point, [00:34:00] a professor from San Diego State had his house shot up and [Paula Tharp?] who was the daughter of a San Diego judge and she was a student, a very good friend of mine from UCSC, got hit, permanently paralyzed from a bullet that hit her in the elbow. And the ensuing 16 �investigation and criminal charge, trial that occurred since her father was the liberal judge in town, he made sure that justice was pursued and these people were identified and it was discovered that they were secretly receiving FBI infor-intelligence where this [professor Bomer?] lived. He was a professor from San Diego State. And we were, every time we organized 5-- 10,000 people to go up to Oceanside and protest the Vietnam [00:35:00] War outside the gates of Camp Pendelton, they would release all these Marines and we’d end up in the frigging riot, fistfights that would last for hours. The cops wouldn’t beat up the Marines. They’d go in there and bust the protestors’ heads and haul them off to jail. So there was a lot of collusion that was coming out in court testimony proving that the FBI and we had actually, I’ve read some of the declassified counterintelligence, the COINTELPO documents, and they’re actually kind of silly. We were a little paranoid and we had a lot of suspicions but we didn’t realize how silly some of their psychological operations could be. There was this one document I read where they were messing with this guy who wrote for the San Diego [00:36:00] Street Journal. And one of the editors for this newspaper was being psychologically harassed by the FBI. I read this one document that if we put this little plastic thing together with little wires and throw it on the sidewalk in front of their building down in Shelltown, that he’s ready to go completely bonkers and go insane if he has any concrete evidence that we’re spying on them. So they did this, they fabricated like the handle of a toy gun and had wires in it like it was some kind of secret radio recording device and left it there in the hopes that it would drive this guy insane. Or they mention Angela Davis and 17 �Barry Schwartz and [Delmar?] [00:36:49]. They weren’t lovers, but they were living in the same house, different parts of the house [00:37:00] and they were mentioning they were... If they found any of the student radicals who were cohabitating and unmarried, they would send, the FBI sent letters to their parents. “Do you know what your children are doing? They’re having free love and they’re at the university. They joined SDS and they listen to all these radicals like Marcuse.” Stupid stuff. Today, kids today would laugh if you sent a note home to their parents. They’d brag. “Yeah, I’m living in sin.” But in those days, they thought that would have an impact and that the parents would draw their kids out of it. Or that they could arrest Barry Schwartz and Angela Davis for violating some sexual, sex laws. An unmarried couple in the same house under the assumption that there’s sex going on, too, and there wasn’t any. [00:38:00] I spent a few nights there so they were just friends. So I don’t know where any of this is leading. Is this the kind of information you wanted to gather? JJ: Yes, it is. VV: It leads to how I got involved and some of the stuff I saw as well as why I started to leave. Because by this time, like this police officer, I showed you his picture? He arrested over 50 San Diego Brown Berets on felonies. And [Alorista?] [00:38:32], in fact, told me at one point that he had personally had a conversation with Manny Jesús López, Sergeant López. He said, and he asked him, “Why’d you arrest all these people?” He said, “Well, I didn’t arrest everybody. I never arrested Vince.” And Alorista asked him, “Well, why didn’t you ever [00:39:00] go after Vince Sidi Vaca?” He said, “I kind of had respect for him.” That’s such 18 �bullshit I, because I hated that guy’s guts. Every time I saw him after he, after we outed him and I remember a bunch of protests. If I could find a hiding spot behind a hedge while we were having a picket line for the farm workers, I’d grab a handful of gravel or little, bitty rocks and I’d toss them over the hedge at him and the other cops so that he knew that was -- after a few months of that, he knew that was my psychological operation. So that was my calling card that I knew he was there and he was a punk. It ended up where years later when he didn’t get hired by the FBI or promoted to lieutenant in the local police, he quit and became chief of security at the Del Mar fairgrounds. He also hired himself out as [00:40:00] the mayor. What was that woman’s name? She was a pseudoliberal, she married a food maker, Oscar’s, which is now Jack in the Box. She married that rich guy. She had an Irish name. Her sister was in the history department at UCSC. She became mayor of San Diego. She just admitted a big gambling problem. She’s all over the news in San Diego recently. JJ: This is where you grew up. VV: In San Diego. JJ: Okay. VV: So he would be her bodyguard any time she traveled to Tijuana or Mexico so in my files, I’ve got pictures of her right, of him right next to him. Eventually, though, his son grew up and became a meth, addicted to methamphetamines, and so one day, he had the Jones [00:41:00] on and he had the shakes. He goes and visits his mother’s father, his maternal grandfather, and demands that he give him some money. His grandfather was in the garage working on his car and he said, 19 �“Hell, no, I’m not giving you any money for, to support your drug habit.” [Nacho’s?] [00:41:17] son went and got a ball-peen hammer and killed his grandfather. Hit him about 20 times, crushed his skull, killed his own grandfather over drug money. When this hit the news, they had an all-points bulletin shoot on site, Nacho went and found his son, he protected his son for a week, and got his son to turn himself in so that the police wouldn’t shoot him to death. When it was all said and done, his son pleaded guilty to homicide [00:42:00] and was sentenced to 10 years in state prison. You’re nodding your head. I think a 10year sentence for murder is a very light sentence is what I’d say. He should’ve be shot to death. But to me, that’s a very strong object lesson. You betray your own people and use weed and alcohol to do it, then what comes around goes around. It happened to him and it, his wife divorced him. It destroyed his family, his self-esteem. Now he’s some gumshoe. He’s a private detective that nobody hires and he’s a joke. There’s only one formal city councilman who even invites him to his parties. That one guy who was a friend of my mother’s who got thrown off the city council for taking bribes. So San Diego’s a microcosm [00:43:00] of places like Chicago. Corruption makes cities go ’round but we point across the border at Mexico at the drug cartels and the corruption in other countries and I just tell my students in my Mexican History classes, “Don’t spit in the wind.” JJ: Now, you’re, you were well-known in San Diego. You mentioned that [Orista?] [00:43:20]. Was he well-known or was he...? VV: When I joined the Brown Berets, I joined the second generation. Alorista and Izzy Chávez and what is it, Arturo Serrano, and there were a number of other 20 �Chicanos who were older than me who founded the Brown Berets in San Diego the first generation around 1967. By 1969, they had gone their own way. Many of them were tecatos, [00:44:00] ex-cons, and from the inner city. A few of them were Juan Gómez-Quiñones was a member and so was Alorista. So they were among some of the more developed intellectuals. Gómez-Quiñones was a professor at San Diego State before he went onto UCLA to where he’s still teaching. I think he’s emeritus but he’s still teaching classes 40 years later at UCLA. So that whole apparatus kind of fell apart and it needed to be rebuilt so Izzy Chávez started recruiting a second generation and he got a bunch of us that were undergraduates from UCSD and from some other, a bunch of people from the METChAs, because by March of ’69, METChA had replayed MAYA on [00:45:00] college campuses and we started getting a lot of returning Vietnam veterans as well as barrio youth. So at one point before August 29th, 1970, that was kind of the high point of the Brown Berets. After August 29th, it was all downhill from there and for the whole Chicano Movement. Because we had been diverted into a war we couldn’t win and we ended up, all our dreams were frustrated. We ended up spending most of our time at funerals or raising money for, to defend political prisoners. So that really sapped a lot of our energy and we were -JJ: So a war that you couldn’t win. VV: A war we couldn’t win. I still remember by that time after -- JJ: And how were you (inaudible)? 21 �VV: Well, because the police were attacking and killing and [00:46:00] shooting us. I remember specifically on January 31st, 1971, the last protest in East Los Angeles. We had about 20,000 people running from what is now Ruben Salazar Park down 3rd Street down to Whittier Boulevard where most of the rioting and burning and fighting with the police officers occurred. They knew our tactics by then. At every intersection, every block, a phalanx of police would run across the street and break us into block-long group, block-long groups that were more easy to control. I still remember this one woman coming out of her house on 3rd Street. Because I was young and fast, I was way up in the front running my butt off. And I’m [00:47:00] looking around and seeing what the cops are ding because they had fresh tactics of dividing us up and sapping our strength. This woman came out of her house and yelled at us. She said, “Why are you destroying your own community? This is my neighborhood. Get out of my neighborhood! You guys keep having these riots and who gets hurt? We get hurt. You’ve burned down Whittier Boulevard. You’re burning down our economic livelihood.” I wasn’t just a crazy, wild anarchist. I tried to listen to reason and other people but it was very hard at that point because I figured we’re at war. We’re at war, forget any kind of rationality, anything we can do to survive. In love [00:48:00] and war, all things are fair was the prevailing logic in 1970, ’71. JJ: So everyone thought that they were at war, love and war? VV: Yes. JJ: Or love or war? I mean -- 22 �VV: Well, I mean, if you remember the ’60s, it was a fine line. There was the music, the rock’n roll culture of the day. “Rejoice, rejoice, we have no choice,” was the refrain of a song. Four dead in Ohio, Crosby, Stills, Nash, & Young. A lot of the rock’n roll bands were almost a part of the cultural vanguard of this upswell that was sweeping across all of America. In the Chicano community, we had our own bands. We had Chicano, we had Malo, we had Santana which were at least culturally uplifting if not overtly political. But this is also the era [00:49:00] where many of us were being infused with salsa, with Will Colón and Rubén Blades. Which were blatantly political in their music that was filtering and the salsa from the Boricua. Mixing with everything coming up from South America, too. I mean, so a lot of us felt hey, what do we got nothing to lose? We got nothing to lose but our chains. I wonder, I think we accomplished something in the end but I think we paid too heavy a price because we alienated our own community. We were only 10 percent of five million people and we turned our own people against us at a time when the FBI was after us, too. I strongly became paranoid and felt like most of the time, [00:50:00] we had our backs in a corner. And the infiltrators they were sending out after us were all Latinos. So we were losing the moral high ground and I mean, thinking with a military mind strategy tactics to achieve a goal, the goal being the liberation of our people or at least gaining freedom, justice, and equality within the system. Whatever was possible. We were that vanguard was willing to try and achieve that at any price, by any means necessary to quote brother Malcom. But we failed to learn the lessons of Che. I can quote Mao, Che, Frantz Fanon, all these Pedagogy of the Oppressed from 23 �Freire and the literature. That’s probably what got me to probably take [00:51:00] revolution more seriously and study revolutionary theory in many different groups. Whoever was offering those kind of classes which weren’t being offered at the university officially. So and even when I went in the Marines, I did that because nobody else would hire me; I’d been expelled for the third time. I’d go around to community organizations that I’d help build. I said, “Look, I’ll clean your toilets, I’ll mop your floors.” “No, we ain’t got any money.” I thought I was too good to go and work at McDonald’s so I thought, “I’m a hero. I’ll go join the Marines.” I almost got my own butt blown off in there. Then all my former friends or many of the people I used to work with started questioning my sanity or my loyalty. I mean, everybody was so paranoid, everybody was saying everybody was an infiltrator [00:52:00] working for the pigs, working for the FBI. So in that whole environment, even though many of the Berets had been Vietnam veterans themselves. See, I did the reverse of what they did and even people like [Edmundo Rees?] [00:52:16] was telling me, “Don’t go in.” He had just got out of the Green Berets and he said, “The last place you want to do, go is to go into the military now.” Vietnam was still on. It was winding down but it was still on. But I figured, “Hell, I’ll go in there, I’ll get paid. I can organize inside and I’ll get GI Bill.” I did all three of those. As far as I’m concerned, Reagan, Nixon called me a traitor to America. When I went in [00:53:00] the Marines, I had a lot of my former comrades calling me traitor, infiltrator. It would take me a long time to sort -JJ: Comments of the Brown Berets you mean or...? 24 �VV: Brown Berets, Black Panthers, Venceremos Brigade, you name it. Out on the West Coast. JJ: So you were a traitor because you had joined the Marines or...? VV: Yeah, I was serving the US government now all of a sudden in their minds. JJ: But you saw it how? How did you see it? VV: I saw it differently. That the Russian Revolution succeeded because the Russian army mutinied against the czar. That was the real turning point in the Russian Revolution. I thought I could do something in there because there had been a very active anti-war movement within the military. Throughout the Vietnam war but particularly after ’68. When I went in there in the Marines, there was a Black and Brown coalition [00:54:00] going on in there with Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, and Blacks. I was shocked to see how many Brown Berets there were in the Marines just like me at the time. So I mean, there was one incident, there was sabotage going on in the Navy where there were, the Klan was active in the Marines. There was an incident at Camp Pendleton where Black nationalists had discovered or sympathizers of the Black Panther Party had found out where and when these Klan members were going to meet. They broke in there and beat the hell out of the Klan. They attacked the Klan and beat them up. And the court martials that followed all the Blacks were given dishonorable discharges and kicked out of the military. The Klan were the victims so they were sent to other duty stations to spread their racist hate. So there was a whole nother side to the struggle [00:55:00] to the civil rights, to the anti-war struggle going on within the military. Fragging, desertions, there were half a million people in prison for 25 �desertion during the Vietnam War. We lost that war because of the politicians and because a majority of the American people had turned against the war and the servicemen didn’t want to fight and die. So I saw an opportunity there to -and I did end up getting ultimately a master’s degree with the GI Bill I earned. I made sure I didn’t go to Vietnam. See? JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- VV: Yeah, let’s wrap it up, man. You got to go, ten o’clock, see? I can talk forever. JJ: Final thoughts and then we’ll wrap it up. VV: Okay. JJ: (laughs) How do you want to close? What did we -- VV: What do I want to say? What do I...? [00:56:00] I don’t care who calls me -- I’ve been called a national treasure, I’ve been called a traitor. I don’t give a damn what anybody calls me because I know who I am and I know what I stand for. So I don’t need anybody else’s approval for what I do. I have confidence that I’m on the right path. I trust myself even if some people like Mario Barrera do not. JJ: All done. All right, thank you. Thanks. VV: Sure. END OF VIDEO FILE 26 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b3d5529eac9ed57d8b0023ea41ea744a.mp4 8e95dd777f33fa57f61535bdbb74e000 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Vincent Vaca vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Vincent Vaca, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 5/8/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Vaca_Vincent Title A name given to the resource Vincent Vaca video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vaca, Vincent Description An account of the resource Oral history of Vincent Vaca, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 5/8/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-08 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f50040ecefb27b5b109649d41e376c63.pdf 80e1269946931ef0a53292c32e2f9a99 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ricci Trinidad Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/17/2012 Biography and Description Ricci Trinidad grew up in Lincoln Park. He describes his memories of the neighborhood, including the work of his parents, Pablo Trinidad Resto and Cristina “Nine” Jiménez. Doña Nine, as Mr. Trinidad’s mother was called, was a businesswoman. Early on as a new immigrant in the early 1950s she opened a restaurant, financing it with only her own funds in the La Clark neighborhood at Wells and Superior Streets. She began by cooking for the new immigrant men who were working to bring their families from Puerto Rico to Chicago in her converted, connecting room apartment at the Water Hotel. The restaurant was creative and domino leagues were organized to serve the patrons and to increase the restaurant’s bottom line. Lotería, or Spanish bingo games, that were sponsored by several families within the La Clark barrio, soon sprang up as well. Mr. Trinidad attended Immaculate Conception and became president of a primarily white neighborhood social club on North Park Avenue, called the “Rebels.” He served honorably in the U.S. Army and retired as a worker in good standing from the Commonwealth Edison plant. In his early years, he, William, and José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez – who were cousins and close friends -- rode bicycles and skateboards down the cobbled streets of Superior, downtown, and through the Oak Street and North Avenue beaches. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: We’re just talking like we would at dinner, kind of talk like that. Can you give me your name, and your date of birth, and where you were born? RICCI TRINIDAD: My name’s Ricci Trinidad. I was born in barrio San Salvador, Caguas in 1949. JJ: So when you say you were born in barrio San Salvador, in the house or in the hospital? RT: I have no idea. (laughter) More than likely, the house. JJ: More than likely the house? RT: Yeah. JJ: So how long did you live here before you -- RT: While I was there, I remember going to -- it was like almost like a day school, where they would send you there and they’d teach you catechism and all that. JJ: Here in Puerto Rico? RT: Yeah, in Puerto Rico. And they fed you, I remember it was [00:01:00] [a Reina?] arroz con leche, you know something very simple. And it was more or less something for us to do, also. But I don’t quite remember how old I was when we left for Chicago. JJ: I mean was it more than four years old? RT: I would say something like four or five, something like that. JJ: So you probably got to Chicago in about 1955 -- 1954, ’53, something like that. RT: Right. I remember going to, I believe it was -- we lived at 1023 North La Salle. JJ: You didn’t live at the Water Hotel? 1 �RT: No. JJ: And you went right to 1023 North La Salle? RT: We were at 1023 North La Salle, and also in that other house we had. Willy’s mom, Marta, she used to live up on the second floor. JJ: And this was at 1023? RT: This was at 1023 North La Salle. JJ: [00:02:00] I think your mom was the manager. Was she the manager? RT: That’s what I was about to come in and say. (laughter) The guy that owned the building was Mr. [Soda?], and I believe that they offered her the first-floor apartment which was a pretty big apartment, all the way to the back, and then gave her a discount on the apartment, and all she had to do was just kind of interview people or try and get people to keep the apartment filled. And so I remember Marta and Andre living there. JJ: Andre was Willy’s father? RT: Yeah, Willy’s father. That’s my uncle. And I think at that time, your mom used to live on Maple. JJ: Right on the corner. RT: Right, right on the corner there. JJ: [00:03:00] 1039 Maple. RT: Right. And across the street, I think Carmen Lopez -- JJ: Oh, no, it was 1023 La Salle (inaudible), 1029 La Salle (inaudible). RT: You guys did. JJ: Yeah. You said Carmen Lopez? 2 �RT: And then Carmen Lopez, I believe, was -- across the street, there were some apartments there, and she lived there. I remember that she did because they had this -- every week they’d get together and they’d play loteria. (laughter) And during the game you put a little funds aside for the owner of the house and all this. And so -- JJ: Was loteria a legal game at that time? RT: At that time, I don’t think any type of gambling was legal. (laughter) JJ: So everybody (inaudible). But everybody liked to do that. RT: Right. So Carmen used to have the same thing, and I guess they -- JJ: So Carmen had the same thing, [00:04:00] and who else had it? RT: Carmen always used to have games at her house. JJ: Were you talking about your mom had it or Carmen had it? RT: Yeah. So I remember at one time the police got stormed in -- JJ: Stormed in by breaking your door? RT: -- and they took everybody that was in there over to Superior, I believe it was -Chicago Avenue. Chicago Avenue had a district, a police district. JJ: Yeah, Chicago Avenue police district. RT: Yeah. And I remember after they took ’em, I had a bike, my bike there, and I pedaled all the way out there because they wouldn’t take me with them (laughter) to find out if she’s coming back, what’s happening, or whatever. JJ: This is Nine? RT: This is Nine, this my mom. And so eventually I guess they -- JJ: But they took everybody else? 3 �RT: They took everybody in there, probably to cite ’em or -- JJ: [00:05:00] Who were other people? Do you know? RT: No, they got different -- they are friends of the family that were there and stuff like that. JJ: They just basically raided the lottery game? RT: Yeah, they did. Somebody -- JJ: Somebody snitched or something? RT: How do you say -- somebody used a dime. (laughs) JJ: Somebody dropped a dime. RT: Dropped a dime. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible). RT: Yeah, so, anyway, at that time, also, I remember that -- JJ: So we’re not talkin’ about a lot of money here, we’re talkin’ quarters, nickels -- RT: Yeah, nickels, dimes, and dollars. JJ: People were just kind of doing it for fun, basically. RT: Yeah, it’s more or less a get together and -- JJ: You just kind of contribute it to the food of the house and stuff. (inaudible) (laughter) So it was a business. (laughter) It would have had a big business, is what I’m saying. RT: At that time, the old man was the only one that was working. And somehow or other, he used to have [00:06:00] saved bonds and stuff for emergencies, and every once in a while, he’d cash them. So I guess he had enough where they 4 �went and they opened a restaurant on Wells and Superior, and that was right next to your Water Hotel. JJ: Right, and we were still living in the Water Hotel. That’s why I thought that you lived at the Water Hotel, too, because I used (inaudible). RT: Right. Well, Marta had moved -- at that time, Marta had moved from 1023 North La Salle, and she lived at the Water Hotel with Willy. JJ: So she moved back. RT: She moved there. Actually -- you go ahead. JJ: No, go ahead. RT: So actually, that lasted for a while, and I switched schools from Ogden School which was a kindergarten, first grade, second grade that I went to, something like that. JJ: Okay, so what was that like? RT: This Ogden School, I believe [00:07:00] it was by -- I don’t know why they call it -I guess it was by Ogden. What was the name of that park up there? By Clark and State. JJ: They called it -- RT: Close to Quigley. JJ: (inaudible). RT: Close to Quigley? Isn’t Ogden around there somewhere? JJ: Yeah, Ogden school is right by there. RT: Then that’s the school that I went to. JJ: By Clark Street. 5 �RT: Yeah, that’s the school that I went to. And so after that, they switched me -- JJ: Between Holy Name Cathedral and Ogden, yeah. RT: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible). RT: After that, they switched me, I believe it was St. Joseph’s school which is a grammar school, also. JJ: How far did you go into St. Joseph’s? RT: I must have went there for the next couple of years or so. And that’s when -- JJ: What do you remember of that -- of that school? RT: Actually, I remember bein’ chased home every day. (laughter) JJ: Being chased home? RT: Yeah. See, that wasn’t really [00:08:00] the neighborhood that we belonged to. Anything west of La Salle Street was infested with gangs, and it was AfroAmericans, and they didn’t like anybody but Afro-Americans. JJ: Cabrini-Green, right? RT: Yeah. JJ: Cabrini-Green. So they chased you every day? RT: So they waited until I got out of school, and I was already ready. There was somebody that lived in a -- JJ: I think we got chased one time together. Me, you, and Willy. RT: We might have, yeah. On the second floor, my mother rented an apartment to these guys that all they wanted it for was body building. And they had weights, 6 �they had benches there, they had boxing glove -- I mean boxing bag. And they’d have boxing lessons there and everything. And so -JJ: And this was 1023 La Salle? RT: 1023 North La Salle. So then I volunteered [00:09:00] to help ’em clean up and move the stuff around after they finished, put everything back, so long as I could kind of train a little bit so I wouldn’t be chased every day. (laughter) JJ: We got to get these guys back. RT: So I was doing that for a while. JJ: So part of you going to school was physical exercise. You had to run. RT: No, you didn’t need gym, you had that on the way there and when you came out. (laughter) So, anyway, they noticed that. And one time we got chased, like you said, so I remember getting there just in the nick of time and closing the door. JJ: A few of us kind of hung out together, right? Of the cousins. RT: Well, at that time, I think you mentioned something about the mattresses. If you were, then I guess we hung out there. (laughter) JJ: The mattresses from the -- RT: The roof in the 1023 by the garage. [00:10:00] And I don’t know, I think Willy -- JJ: Me, you, and Willy. RT: And Willy was there. JJ: And Samuel (inaudible) or something. RT: Yeah. So, anyway, then they realized what was happening. And then Ramon and [Clouta?], they used to live over on North Park across -- JJ: They were uncles and aunts? 7 �RT: Yes, those are our uncles and aunts. And so across the street from them, there was a grammar school, Immaculate Conception. And they wanted to keep me in the Catholic school, so they switched me over there, and I guess I spent maybe from sixth to eighth grade at Immaculate Conception. JJ: From what grade to what grade? RT: Sixth to eighth grade. And it was there that -- JJ: And did you go to Franklin at all or no? RT: No, [00:11:00] I didn’t go to any public schools. JJ: So you went to St. Joseph, and you went to Ogden -- RT: Except for Ogden. Except for Ogden School. JJ: And then you went to Immaculate Conception. RT: Then I went to Immaculate Conception. JJ: And how was Immaculate Conception? RT: They had one lay teacher, the rest of them were nuns. Pretty strict, it was mostly white. I don’t know, Irish -- if there some Lithuanian or -- but some of the people that went there were from -- you know, people that had some bucks, their parents were well-known or whatever. JJ: Well-to-do people? RT: Yeah, well-to-do people. JJ: And this was on North Park by North Avenue? Just south of -- RT: Yeah, just north of Shiller on North Park. JJ: So who were your friends there? 8 �RT: At that time, you get to know different people. [00:12:00] I got to know a guy named Paul [Pfister?]. And he was more or less like the look up guy, everybody looked up to him. It consisted of different races and that. In the beginning, it was real hard to make friends, you know what I’m saying? But with Paul Phister, I got to learn -- meet other people -- Damian, there was a guy named John Spar, there was a guy named Kenny Neehoff and his brother, Earl. And I remember my sister -- JJ: Your sister, what’s her name? RT: Margarita. I think she went to that Cooley. JJ: So she didn’t go to your school? RT: Cooley School. And she used to hang around [00:13:00] with Noreen Collins. I’m pretty sure that you’ve heard of her. Well, what happened is somehow or other, we got -- this guy had a basement, and we used to go there to play records, and we were at that age where you get to meet girls and stuff like that. And so we’d kind of hang out, and it turned out to be a club. JJ: This is Pfister? RT: Paul Pfister, he had a nickname of Peppy. (laughs) So, anyway, we decided to get a name for the club. So somebody brought up the name Rebels. I guess there was a song out at that time called “The Rebel.” JJ: He’s a rebel (inaudible). RT: Yeah, that’s the song. So then this other guy, [00:14:00] he got a hold of this place where they would make these sweaters for your club, so we decided on a color, I think it was black and white, stuff like that. And from then on, it was just -- 9 �this was our little group. The only ones that could go to the clubhouse -- when you nothing to do and wanted to go there and hang out, you’d just go there and you could hang out and listen to the records, whatever it is. JJ: So people like Sheila, and Mary, and Lynn? RT: Sheila, and Mary Coin, and Lynn were from Immaculate Conception, and so those are kind of like, I want to say, the Rebelettes. (laughter) JJ: Those were the Rebelettes at the time. Now later on, some of them became [00:15:00] Young Lordettes? RT: Yeah, after that, some of them did. JJ: (inaudible). RT: Was it Lynn? Lynn one of them? JJ: Lynn, and Sheila, and Mary. And Mary (inaudible)? RT: Sheila married the -- JJ: We were only a block away from each other. RT: Well, this was through Immaculate Conception because they used to hold -- I believe it was Father Ring, he used to hold dances to -- because there was a big change -- JJ: As the neighborhood changed. RT: The neighborhood was changing. Old town was starting to become more noted. It used to be nothing but antique stores, and now it was restaurants, it was -- JJ: But now there were more Puerto Ricans movin’ in from La Salle Street and all that. 10 �RT: Well, actually, I don’t know if they moved in from La Salle Street, but there were Puerto Ricans living on the north side that were close to St. Michael’s. [00:16:00] And they were -- JJ: They were going to Immaculate Conception church. RT: They were going to St. Michael’s, stuff like this. JJ: But didn’t they have masses in Immaculate Conception? RT: Yeah, but there was no Spanish mass there. JJ: Oh, no Spanish mass? RT: No, this was all just -- like I said, the people that went there, that was the top grammar school to go to. JJ: I see what you’re saying. But there were Puerto Ricans that went there, but there was no Spanish mass. RT: Because there weren’t too many Puerto Ricans there. There might have been -I can maybe count about five or six. JJ: Oh, that’s all? RT: Yeah. JJ: They did have some dances there? RT: No, no, this was later on. This was towards, say, my eighth grade, and freshman year, and stuff like that. JJ: Oh, okay, so this was later then. RT: That’s when the Young Lords, I believe, started coming around and -- JJ: We had a(inaudible), yeah. RT: Yeah. It wasn’t only the Young Lords, you had different -- 11 �JJ: [00:17:00] So the Black Eagles, (inaudible). RT: Black Eagles Paragons, whatever -- that used to come around. And so -- JJ: You were talking about before this. RT: My freshman year was Quigley North, and right around there is when all of this stuff was happening. JJ: Well, let’s go back for a second. Note the Quigley, but let’s go back to -- okay, you’re on La Salle Street, and I had mentioned one thing about jumping off the garage in the back. What do you remember of -- like some of the stuff that the youth did, the young people used to do -- that you used to do? RT: Actually, I didn’t really hang out. What I used to do was go up and use the weight room with the guys. I mean there was really not much you can do. [00:18:00] Next door we had cousins from my uncle’s side that married AfroAmerican, and they used to come by every once in a while. If you remember them. There was -- the youngest one was Brother. JJ: Who? RT: Brother. JJ: That was his name? RT: The second one was Neal, and the oldest one was Otis. JJ: Jiménez? They were Jiménez? RT: They were Jiménez. JJ: They were African American, but Jimenez. RT: Right. He was Jiménez. JJ: And their father was our uncle, Rogelio. 12 �RT: Their father was -- JJ: (inaudible) or Rogelio? RT: Rogelio. JJ: Yeah. Jiménez. So he was your mother’s brother and my father’s brother. My father’s brother. RT: Yeah. And so they were much older. They were much older than I was, so there was really nobody my age to hang out with. I believe you, and I, and Willie got together a lot, but Willy was going to a different school. [00:19:00] I think he went to Holy Name Cathedral, so his time was taken up by basketball. JJ: Right, he was playing basketball. RT: He was into sports all the time. So, really, there wasn’t anything at La Salle for me. Not until we got to Immaculate Conception that -- within the same club, I took music lessons, my father took me to get music lessons. And I learned a little bit on the guitar, and what I learned I taught this other guy named Kenny Neehoff, and he became second guitar in the -- I believe that a guy named Damian which is Falstino’s brother that was -- their parents were the ones that let us use the club, you might say, the basement, so that they could keep an eye on us, and they know where we’re at, and stuff like that. [00:20:00] She bought him a set of drums and he became my drummer. JJ: Whose basement? Which club are you talking about? RT: It was the Rebel’s clubhouse. JJ: Okay. 13 �RT: Also we had the group which we named after the club. It was the Rebels. So we didn’t play in any (inaudible). JJ: So then the Rebels were also a musical group. RT: Yeah. We didn’t play in any real big places, but we used to play for our own little get-togethers and socials. JJ: Right there for the students in that school? RT: Right. JJ: Your parents had that restaurant, though, on what was it? What do you -- RT: It was on Wells and Superior. JJ: What do you remember of that? How did it look? How was the restaurant? RT: Well, they had a pool table inside of there. My mother used to -- she used to do the cooking. The old man worked the night shift after sleeping [00:21:00] a little. JJ: Where did he work? RT: He worked at Western Electric. JJ: And he just came from Puerto Rico and found a job there? RT: He found a job there, that’s what he was doing all the -- that’s the only thing he’s done. JJ: What did he do at Western Electric? RT: He used to work the machine, the wire machine. I believe they made all different sized cables for -- you could say for many things from communication cables, and power cables, and telephone cables. I remember he used to get these little pins with the phones on them because they had some kind of contracts -Western Electric, I believe, also made phones. 14 �JJ: Where was that at? Where was Western Electric at? RT: I think it was on Cicero and 22nd. Somewhere around there. JJ: So how did he get there? That’s pretty far. RT: How did he get there? He had his car. [00:22:00] I remember he had a ’56 Cadillac. JJ: (inaudible). (laughter) RT: I remember that I was asking him to let me drive down North Park so I could show -- JJ: And you drove? RT: Yeah, I did okay until I turned the corner (laughter) and the wheel didn’t go back by itself. (laughter) So I kind of dragged the parked car a little bit, and then I finally -- the car finally stopped when that car hit the other car. So then it turned out that -- JJ: So your father (inaudible). RT: Yeah, well, no, he was mad. (laughter) He was mad. Now I know why he never took me to get my license. (laughter) But it turned out that the owner of the [00:23:00] corner store was the owner of that car that we hit -- that I hit. So, you know, they kind of came to an arrangement of some type. JJ: Were they Spanish, too, or no? RT: Yeah, he was Spanish. I think he was mixed. He was married with an American girl, and he was Spanish, and they had a crazy daughter. (laughs) JJ: So your father was working at Western Electric, and he got through family or he got it on his own? 15 �RT: He was working there before I even knew where he was working. JJ: But your mom had the restaurant. RT: She was the cook, and they had what they call (Spanish) [00:23:47]. These are the people that came from PR that went to the Water Hotel. They were bachelors. Whenever they got jobs and stuff like that, they [00:24:00] got the rooms there. And since they weren’t married, half of them, then these guys would automatically be the (Spanish) [00:24:08]. They’ll come in, and she would have their food ready because each one of them had a certain time that they got off of work, and they’ll be there and that. That was kind of her full-time job, my mother’s. And then my father would come in when he woke up before he went to work and he would do anything that had to be done around there that a guy has to do. Pool table this or that, or order -- JJ: So they had a pool table and a few chairs at the tables? RT: Yeah. Well, they had like a counter to eat. JJ: Oh, so they ate at the counter. RT: Yeah. I don’t remember it being a fancy restaurant with the tables, and the, candles and stuff like that. It was a [00:25:00] small place. JJ: Okay, was it like a square place? RT: Yeah. JJ: So she can make a lot of money off -- there were so many people coming from Puerto Rico at that time, so that’s who’s coming? RT: Yeah. So, anyway, that went on for a while. I remember even until I moved to North Park -- when we moved to North Park, she still had the restaurant. I 16 �believe he used to take her -- drive her over there, and Margaret was in charge of making our lunches for school. She’s the one that basically took care of both of us, yeah. There was only two of us. I think Poppo was a still baby or something. JJ: What do you recall of the neighborhood? Do you remember anything about that neighborhood? RT: [00:26:00] The neighborhood was -- JJ: Was there beach or anything like that? RT: No, we used to go to North Avenue Beach. We used to go over by Oak Street Beach, and, you know -- with the guys. Whatever we did, we mostly did with the guys. JJ: Which guys? RT: Well, the Rebels. (laughs) JJ: The what? RT: The Rebels. JJ: Oh, with the Rebels. You used to go to North Avenue. But you don’t recall going to Oak Street Beach with just people from Superior Street or anything like that? RT: No, nobody. JJ: (inaudible) from that street? RT: Nobody. Nobody went there. JJ: So that’s lost from your mind -- or people from La Salle Street? 1023 La Salle. RT: I don’t remember going with them anywhere. Nowhere. That’s what I’m trying to say. There was really nothing at 1023 North La Salle. JJ: Well, what about Willy? What about Willy? 17 �RT: Well, Willy was already in -- JJ: [00:27:00] What do you remember doing with Willy? RT: Okay, he was at Holy Name Cathedral, and then once in a while, he would come over with us, and I introduced him to the guys, and I said, “Hey, this is my cousin, Willy. He’s going to Holy Name and he’s on the basketball team over there.” This was at grammar school. JJ: A member of the scorpions. RT: Something like that. So then we kind talked to him, and he liked the crowd, the guys, because all he knew was basketball. (laughs) And the lake shore, there was a little facility out there where they had the tracks. JJ: Right. On lake shore, yeah. Over there by (inaudible). RT: And then they had ice skating there. JJ: By the university over there (inaudible). RT: We used to cross the street from the lake. JJ: (inaudible). RT: Yeah, right around there. [00:28:00] So, anyway, he joined the club, and it wasn’t soon after that he transferred from -- JJ: So he joined the Rebels, too? RT: Yeah. Soon after that, he transferred from -- instead of continuing with Holy Name, he went to St. Michael’s. JJ: Okay, because I know they had a group called the Scorpions, too, at that time, (inaudible). RT: Yeah, see, I didn’t hang around with anybody from -- 18 �JJ: (inaudible) at that time. RT: -- Holy Name Cathedral. I used to know some guys there once a while, but -when they were with them, but other than that, we weren’t really social. JJ: So when your mom and my mother and father and all of them played loteria, what did you do? RT: What did I do? (laughs) I don’t know. I guess we might have played around on the side with them, faking, to see, just to [00:29:00] keep us entertained. I mean we were young. Margaret, I remembered, might have played. She was older than I was, and she -- JJ: We were young, that’s what I’m saying, so what did we do (inaudible)? RT: I don’t remember. It’s almost like all that is -- went through it and that was it. JJ: So tell me about the Rebels. What kind of things did you get involved in? You said it’s a band. RT: It was a group of guys, and then the guys had girlfriends that came around and that. And they had their own little group, and I believe even Margaret in that for a while. And so how do you say it? That time was spent, I don’t know -- JJ: [00:30:00] What was Margaret like? RT: Margaret, she was going to Cooley. I believe she was gonna get some kind of diploma for cutting hair or something. And she was older than I was, and she also had her older friends like Mary Coin would hang with us, Sheila Coin would hang with her. They did their things and we did our things. I didn’t hang with my sister. (laughter) JJ: So she had her friends, very good friends, Pappo had his friends. 19 �RT: Pappo? That’s another story. Pappo -- I don’t even remember what Pappo was doing. I don’t remember. Do you remember? No, you don’t remember. [00:31:00] He was young. You see the family picture. Because if I was in grammar school, heck, he must have been in fifth grade -- third grade. JJ: You mentioned Quigley. RT: Quigley. When I graduated from Immaculate Conception, I used to be an altar boy there. And we had to go to mass on Sundays. JJ: How long were you an altar boy? RT: From, I think, seventh to ninth grade. Maybe part of sixth. JJ: So you were an altar boy, and it’s primarily -- you said that Immaculate Conception was a more well-to-do school. RT: Yeah. JJ: And not too many Latinos. RT: Right. That’s when mass was in Latin and you had to learn Latin. (laughs) JJ: That’s a good accomplishment for -- you know, at that time. RT: We had to say the prayers in Latin [00:32:00] and whatever. But the thing is that Father Ring came up to me, and he says, “What do you feel about going to Quigley?” I says, “Quigley?” He says, “Yeah, it’s a -- I think you might have a vocation. Maybe you should kind of try it.” I believe they asked you the same thing. (laughter) JJ: But there only 20 people (inaudible). (laughter) RT: Did you go to seminary at one time? JJ: Yeah, I did. I actually did. I went to (inaudible). So you went -- 20 �RT: So I says, “Yeah, I’ll agree, but, you know” -- I said, “That school is too expensive.” The only people that went there was people from the suburbs. And they split it so that you’d go to school on Saturday, and you were off Friday just to separate you from the regular crowd. [00:33:00] You were expected to do three hours of homework a night, and then you would be tested the next day on your three hours of homework, so you had to know it. And if you didn’t have it, everybody else had it, so you know how would you feel. (laughs) So it was kind of rough. But as it turned out, after my freshman year -- it was kind of hard to be split from the crowd because now Wells Street, there was a lot of different guys from different neighborhoods coming in there. We used to call them the longhairs or whatever, but I’m sure some of them were Taylor Street, there was some guys from different places. And they weren’t all there for fun. And so this was our neighborhood. JJ: They weren’t there for fun meaning what? RT: [00:34:00] Meaning, you know -- JJ: Like a gang or something? RT: Yeah. They’d go out there and drink, they’d get rowdy, they’d -- JJ: Wells Street is right by North Park. RT: So we needed to stick together. JJ: Wells Street is Old Town (inaudible). RT: Yeah. You got Wells Street, you got Wieland. I mean you got North Park, you got Wieland, and you got Wells, if I remember correctly, right? JJ: Right. 21 �RT: And that’s right in our neighborhood, that’s two blocks away. So, anyway -- JJ: So these long-hairs are coming into Old Town. RT: Yeah. JJ: Your neighborhood. RT: Yeah, so then we heard, well, they got (inaudible) over there, and they picked a fight with ’em, and there was about two other guys with the other guys, so that’s when we banded together and we said, “Well, from now, we go there.” JJ: Who’s we? RT: The Rebels. We go there -- whenever one guy wants to go out there, we go together. [00:35:00] You don’t get caught by yourself. So, anyway -- JJ: So before you were a social club, but now the long-hairs are coming in and making the neighborhood -- so now you’re becoming a little more physical. RT: Well, no, you just have to let yourself be known that -- how do you say it? JJ: Let it be known. RT: Yeah, you’re there. You know, just because they came in to -- Wells Street changed all of a sudden we’re supposed to change? Or we don’t belong there? JJ: What do you mean that Wells Street changed? RT: Well, because it used to be like mostly antique shops, now all of a sudden you had Piper’s Alley, you had Like Young, you had all these businesses and restaurants popping up everywhere and prices are going up, all the little guys are being bought off. [00:36:00] I think to this day, Wells Street is supposed to be real -- it spread. It spread from just that north -- yeah, big bucks. JJ: All the little guys are being bought out, do you mean the storeowners? 22 �RT: Yeah. They rehab them and make restaurants and stuff. You couldn’t afford it. I couldn’t afford to go and eat in one of them bigs. It used to be like Rush Street, remember how Rush Street was? Wells Street started to become the same way. JJ: Like Rush Street? RT: Yeah. JJ: But before it was just a regular street. RT: Yeah, before it was just regular antiques, like I don’t know, like something that we saw not too long ago out in the -- what’s the name? Where Meredith’s got her camper out there -- Wilmington. [00:37:00] They got a whole town that’s basically like that -- old-fashioned store here, they got -- you know, it’s nice. Everybody goes into all the stores and whatever. But then this changed into partyville, Old Town was partyville, like Piper’s Alley, and they had all these bands come in and play. And so I think at that time, the Young Lords, when they were coming around for the dances over at Immaculate Conception and all that, they kind of had a few problems with the long-hairs, too. (laughter) And so I says, “Oh, well, at least we’re not alone.” (laughter) JJ: So you had all these people from different parts of the city, some of them were gang bangers coming in. RT: Yeah. Right. JJ: You didn’t say gang-bangers they were long-horns. RT: [00:38:00] Yeah, long-hairs. We used to call them long-hairs. They’re hippies. They were hippies at that time. JJ: But these were hippies from the neighborhood, not hippies from (inaudible). 23 �RT: These hippies didn’t live in the neighborhood. JJ: Okay, not that neighborhood. RT: No. JJ: So they were coming from all over the city, the suburbs, everywhere. RT: Exactly. JJ: They kind of invaded your neighborhood. RT: Well, that was the place for them to go. That’s where their stuff was at. It was built for them. (laughs) It wasn’t built for the poor people. (laughs) JJ: So it was built for them, and so they all united and kind of took over the poor neighborhood there. RT: Yeah, and then they started spreading. JJ: The neighborhood was mixed, but it was poor. RT: Right. Well, it was -- JJ: I mean there was white, and Puerto Rican, and Mexican. RT: There was a lot of Irish. Like the Coins were Irish. And what was Peppy? Peppy, [00:39:00] I think, was Italian-Irish. JJ: So it was it a mixed ethnic neighborhood, but it was poor, it was working-class poor, whatever you want to call it. And these other long-hairs were more money people. RT: Exactly. They were from well-to-do families. JJ: So there was a clash between like their kind of culture and our kind of culture. RT: And ours. And I wouldn’t call it racial because in reality, the Rebels, we had Mexican, we had Puerto Rican -- we had this guy named Com, he was Mexican. 24 �Com, big guy. John Spar, Italian. And we had Peppy, German-Irish-Italian. Kenny Neehoff, Italian. You know, they looked at us, and they said -- you know, when you look at -- it can’t be a gang because you’re all together. Like [00:40:00] you would say Gaylords, Italian; Young Lords, Puerto Rican; Paragons, Puerto Rican, you know what I’m saying? The Blacks would have theirs, whatever. And so this was us, this is why Willy liked it, and this is why -we enjoyed being with each other. We didn’t feel any of that, but this was something else now. Now that was a part that we couldn’t go to like we used to. JJ: They wouldn’t let us go to there? RT: Well, you would have problems every time you’d go through there because I don’t know if they thought we were looking for trouble. JJ: We didn’t fit in at that time. RT: Right. JJ: And so if we walked through there -- I mean even the police would (inaudible) because they didn’t want us there. We were messing with their business. RT: So, anyway, to finish with that part because after that, what happened was [00:41:00] I kept on hanging with them. And one day, I guess, me, Willy, and another guy, I don’t know -- got some runners, and we got some beers and stuff, and I got pretty ripped. And so I was kind of turning, I was just drunk. They were bringing me home. Couldn’t walk right, so they were holding me, and they were bringing me home. Who do I run into? Father Ring. He says, “I don’t think that you have a vocation anymore.” (laughter) And so he says, “If I were you, I’d think this through and be honest with yourself.” Because I really wasn’t paying tuition, 25 �[00:42:00] the tuition was free because of the vocation, and I didn’t want to take advantage of that. And I didn’t like the Saturdays (laughs) and the three hours homework. So for my sophomore year, I went to St. Mike’s. JJ: So you went one year there? RT: Yeah. Sophomore year I was there with Willy because Willy transferred from Holy Name and he played on St. Michael’s team and everything -- basketball team. They wanted him, (laughs) he was good. So we hung out together, now we got Willy. Now Willy’s in the group and now, like I said, the dances are going on with Father Ring, you got different gangs coming around the neighborhood. And somehow or other, all kinds of stuff started happening. Store owners [00:43:00] didn’t want nobody hanging around in front of the establishments and stuff. JJ: Where was this at? RT: Like North Avenue and North Park -- Wieland. Wieland and what was that? North Avenue? JJ: Right. RT: And I guess a couple of times we banged heads with the owners. It wasn’t so much the Rebels, but it was a mixture of guys. (laughs) And, you know, after a couple of times of doing that, one time we busted the windows, and they called the cops. And so I remember being handcuffed to somebody else (laughter) [00:44:00] and thrown in the paddy wagon. JJ: So who was that? RT: You. (laughter) 26 �JJ: Okay, so we were handcuffed why? Why were we handcuffed? RT: Because we were fighting against the place. They didn’t want no -- what did they say? Puerto Rican gangs out here (laughter) hanging around the establishment and blah, blah, blah. JJ: We were just trying to hang out (inaudible). RT: Yeah, just hang out. JJ: A few bottles of wine. RT: Yeah, that’s all. JJ: That’s all. (laughter) (inaudible), a few (inaudible). RT: So, anyway -- JJ: So you go and got handcuffed, and what happened after that? RT: What happened after that, my parents had to go and get me. JJ: We were still young. RT: Yeah, we were still young. We were under age, they couldn’t get us for -- they got us for criminal damage to property, and the warning, and custody [00:45:00] of the parents. Somehow or other, he got together -- my father got together with Don Jesus and they had some kind of deal on a house on the south side. That would be the 5721 South Peoria. JJ: 5721 South Peoria. RT: Where Jesus lived on the first floor, it was a two-story home, and then we would live on the second floor. JJ: And Jesus Rodriguez? RT: Jesus Rodriguez. 27 �JJ: Jesus Rodriguez and Pablo Trinidad. RT: Yeah, they went in halves. JJ: I think they went half on a house. RT: Yeah, I believe the house at that time was $18,000, so they had to come up with -- or finance $9,000 each. And I was still going to -- JJ: [00:46:00] They were members of the (inaudible). RT: Yeah, they both belonged to that Fidelity Hall and St. Mark’s Concilio Numero 3, where they had the activities. I went there to a couple of their activities, too. JJ: Which activities did you go to? RT: What did they have? They used to have ball games over at Humboldt Park. JJ: Humboldt Park? RT: I mean Lincoln Park, right? It was Lincoln Park first. JJ: Yeah, Lincoln Park first. RT: Yeah, Lincoln Park. And then I got to know Jesus’ kids, Jose, and Carmelo, and Danny. JJ: How’d you meet them? RT: I’d seen them around Fidelity Hall, like Carmelo, they’d say, “Hey, this is Don Jesus’ son,” the guy most likely to become [00:47:00] -- or be -- you know? (laughs) Because of his schooling and all this other stuff. So that’s fine. I got to meet the rest of them, Danny, and Jose, and -- JJ: What were they like? Were they a little different, each one? Or what were they like? RT: No, Danny and I were about the same. Same age, we had the same interests. 28 �JJ: What were your interests? Tell us your interests. RT: Well, mine was the band and his was the band, too. He wanted me to join their group and play salsa, and I wanted to start a group of my own and play rock. (laughs) So it so happened that that’s when we first started living there, and then I had continued to take that Halsted Street bus all the way -- with a transfer to get to St. Michael’s. And it became a hassle. JJ: [00:48:00] So you were on the south -- and still going to St. Michael’s. RT: Yeah, but then I let it go to get a job -- to try and get a job because now I was starting to get older, and I wasn’t doing anything in school. JJ: What about Margaret, and Poppo, and them? What were they doing? RT: Like I said, Poppo had his little kids he hung out with. (laughs) JJ: He had his group. RT: Yeah, he had the little kids. JJ: What was the name of his group? RT: He didn’t have a name at that time. But when he was on the south side, I think it was the Latin Souls, but -- JJ: The Latin Souls, yeah, that’s -- RT: But, anyway, that’s jumping. JJ: Let’s go back, (inaudible). RT: So, anyway, what happened? JJ: You were taking the bus back and forth to St. Michael’s. F: Got engaged. 29 �RT: [00:49:00] Oh, you remember that, huh? (laughter) Oh, yeah. There was a club over there, and I believe it was -- their chapter was Concilio Numero 1. And so the kids around my age or a little older, had a gang -- it wasn’t a club, it was a gang called the Latin Souls. And in there, they also had a Latin Soul band. And so I listened to them play one time and I noticed that they didn’t have a bass player. They had Sammy as the rhythm, and they had little David as the lead, and so I said, “Hey, man, I’ll try the bass for you.” He said, “Yeah, okay.” The old man helped me get a Fender amp, got a [00:50:00] guitar. I had a job, odds and ends jobs, they were nothing to keep, they were just to bring in money while you can. And I was in that group for a while. JJ: Where’d you guys play? RT: We used to play at small weddings. We played at house parties, whenever somebody had a birthday party or somethin’ and the house was big enough. JJ: In that area or -- RT: Yeah, on the south side area. JJ: South side, 55th Street? RT: Yeah. So, anyway, Little David, the lead, quit, so then I started to play lead, and Sammy became a rhythm player, and we got this other guy to play bass for us. And along comes a singer, and we take him, and his name was Tony Santiago, and along comes this crazy guy with sunglasses, [00:51:00] looked like he didn’t know where to go, but he had a set of drums, I said, “Get over here.” (laughter) That was Crazy Joe. (laughs) And so this was it. This was my south side clan. I 30 �guess what she wants me to tell you is I had a girlfriend and stuff like that, and I figured get married. You know, that’s the first thing everybody thinks of. JJ: Who was your girlfriend? RT: It was [Elma Valez?], but, you know, it really never got real serious, we were just in that process. It would be an engagement, you know, I’d say. And so it was broken off, anyway. But after that, to jump a little bit more now -- JJ: [00:52:00] Don’t go too fast. RT: No, I was in the group, and that’s basically what we did. And then there was a couple of -- you know, whenever there’s gangs, there’s fights at dances or clubs, and if you’re there, you’re part of it. You have to be. So after that, the band was still going, everything was doing good, we even got this college kid to play organ for us, his name was Peter. You remember Peter? F: The singer, (inaudible). RT: And we had a girl singer. We played at a theater after the movie. It was a Spanish theater, the Sunsets. JJ: On the south side? RT: Yeah, on 47th. What was that? The People’s? At one time, it was called The People’s, then it became -- F: [Ashland?] RT: Yeah. And we played there, Tony and -- we were the group. We had a female, the first female [00:53:00] and a male singer where they’d sing songs like Peaches & Herb and stuff like that. Tammi Terrell and, you know (laughter) -- so 31 �it was pretty good. And then I got my dear -- how do you say it? “This is Uncle Sam” letter. JJ: Okay, you got your letter. RT: Yeah. And he says, “Have somebody drive you to this office downtown tomorrow. Bring toothpaste, enough clothes for one day, and don’t worry about going back because you won’t be going back.” (laughter) JJ: So how’d you feel about that? Because they had a war going on at that time. RT: Yeah, they did. That was bad. So I said, “You know what? What am I going to do? The old man went, he was in the Army, he served his time in the Korean war.” JJ: He served in Korea? Your father? RT: Yeah. And I said, “I’m going to do what was expected of me to do.” I could’ve went to Canada [00:54:00] with a bunch of guys, (laughter) said, “I’m going to Canada.” JJ: You weren’t into that? RT: No. The ones that were going up there were the people that had money, that their parents sent them out there and they didn’t want go. They were flunking out of school. If you flunked out of school, you’d be drafted. JJ: No, but I’m saying you were growing up in Catholic school in Chicago like everybody else, you were supporting the United States. RT: Yeah. JJ: So they call you to go to service and you go into the service. 32 �RT: Yeah, it was a draft. They let it known that it was a draft, there was no volunteering about it. JJ: You didn’t mind? RT: Well, I figure it’ll be something better than what I have now. First of all, the relationship just broke. (laughs) And then the only thing we got is the group, and I got no job. So maybe this will give me a chance, so I went. JJ: So you go [00:55:00] there and -- RT: Yeah, I’m expecting to out, basic training and everything. I’m expecting to go to Vietnam. Every other platoon was going -- one was going to Germany, one was going to ’Nam. Back up, one was going to front, back up front. Just turned that mine’s was back up. I said, “Oh.” So I ended up in Germany for 18 months. JJ: How was that? What kind of experience was that? RT: It was actually a continuation of your training because you’re supposed to be ready at any time. At any time, they could send you from Germany to Vietnam. When they invaded Cambodia, they already had people lined up ready to go. And we were gonna go, but the president called them back from Cambodia because, I believe, China threatened to get in if the U.S. kept marching. They were supposed to be in Vietnam, they’re already now in another spot. [00:56:00] So this was good. That’s another good deal. I came back home, and stuff like that, and tried to start up a group -- get into a group. That’s when I met her at a ball game. JJ: So you tried to start another band? RT: Yeah, Orchestra Nine we called it. (laughs) 33 �JJ: And you said something about a ball game where you met (inaudible). RT: Yeah, there was a little park over there where the guys -- the older guys, they weren’t really concilio, were they concilio? No. They were just like Renegades, the Renegades and this and that. F: They just made their own team. RT: And so we were there, and I just happened to have enough money from -- money that I got from the Army and all that. Peter. So she needed a ride, [00:57:00] I said, “Yeah, you’re Caesar’s daughter, right?” Gave her a ride, next thing you know, mother’s calling me in, says, “You can’t take my daughter out. (laughter) What do you think you’re doing?” JJ: So (inaudible). RT: She says, “You got to talk to her. You got to talk to her. She wants to talk to you.” So I walk in there, and he says, “It’s about time you come in here to ask for my daughter -- to visit her.” I said, “I didn’t come to ask for the house visit, I came to tell you that we’re getting married.” (laughter) I got a job, I’m taking $10 an hour, we got a little apartment. JJ: Now, where were you working? RT: Well, I got a job at Chicago Candles. That was [00:58:00] thanks to my -- the one that left me, her sister was the secretary there, and she got me in as a supervisor on a candle -- or a conveyer line where you’d fill out orders and have the guy bring in the different -- you look at the orders, you bring in the different bases, you put the right scent on the wax tank, and then you get the girls ready -I’d have a guy fill them, then before it dries, I’d have somebody straighten up the 34 �wicks, and then they would throw glitter on them if it called for glitter. It was pretty good, but -JJ: It sounded like you were pretty excited about the job. RT: Yeah, it was pretty good, but it wasn’t really what I wanted. I don’t think I wanted to -- JJ: It was pretty good though. So what did you want? RT: Actually, I got my GED, I forgot to say, in the Army. [00:59:00] Yeah, (inaudible). So I had extra time out there, I used to go to (inaudible). And then they had the educational facilities, so I’d study and then you take the exam for GED which I got. When we got married, I told her, I said, “You know, I’ll work -- spend minimum, you go to school, you finish.” Then when she finished, I used my GI bill and I went to refrigeration air condition and heating and got -- I wanted to be - have a good job. So I completed that. JJ: (inaudible). RT: Yeah, I got a diploma from there, and I started doing work on my own, passing out cards and doing side jobs. I did her old man’s stores’ refrigerators, walk-in coolers, [01:00:00] and stuff like that. And then I couldn’t -- they were calling me in the wee hours of the morning to go and do work and stuff like that which I couldn’t handle. So I decided to go to the Veteran’s and use that for them to get me a job in my field, something to do with either refrigeration, air conditioning, heating, or any electrical. And they sent me to a few places, and I kept coming back because they weren’t -- one time they sent me, “Oh, you’ll be making $25 an hour at this job.” I said, “What do I got to do?” Said, “You load trucks, 35 �trailers.” I said, “That sounds good to me.” I go over there, there’s a line on this side and a line on that side -- scam. (laughter) I said, “Nope.” Go back to the Veteran’s. These guys had sticks and [01:01:00] everything else. (laughter) You’re taking their job. No way. JJ: Was this a company they sent you to? RT: The Veteran’s Administration. JJ: Oh, they sent you. RT: Yeah, they get all these jobs. JJ: (inaudible) union? RT: No, to get me a job. (laughter) JJ: But they were going to get scammed. RT: Yeah. Actually, one time, this one guy, John (inaudible), I remember, somebody told me, “When you go to this place, it’s Commonwealth Edison, you go sharp, you know, dress.” I did. They looked at me like if I was applying for an office job. (laughs) And what it was is it was electrical maintenance. And he says, “This is what you can get into, but you have to start off from the bottom.” JJ: You dressed up for the interview? RT: You dressed up for the interview. I said -- JJ: I used to go dressed up, too. RT: They asked me, “Why [01:02:00] are you so dressed up?” I said, “Well, it’s an interview.” JJ: Don’t tell me you wore a suit. RT: I wore a suit and tie. (laughs) 36 �JJ: And this is a maintenance interview? (laughter) RT: I got the job. (laughter) And then I think I was mopping floors for about a year, and then -- whenever there’s an opening, you bid on it, and I got into electrical maintenance and I worked my way all the way up to a mechanic. I was there 26 years, so that was my job. And 26 years at 50 years old. And then they decided to sell it to Midwest Generation it was called. JJ: Now what was the company? RT: The first one was Commonwealth Edison which is what I retired from. Now it’s Exelon. It’s called Exelon. But Midwest Generation still owns like the station [01:03:00] at 5th, the station at Crawford, you know, Pulaski. And that’s where I did all my time there. And so they gave me a window of opportunities. Says, “You can retire” -- because the numbers have to come up to 72. “You’re 26 with 50 years, you’re way over. You’re 50 years old with 26 years work, that’s over 72.” So I said, “Okay, I’m out of here.” So they gave me a year’s salary, they gave me about three-quarters almost of my pension. I said, “Yeah, this is it.” JJ: Back up just a little bit. What do you remember of your father? What was he like? What was his name? Pablo Trinidad, right? RT: Yeah, Pablo Trinidad, he went by Resto. But now that I learn more, I’ll hear it. Resto [01:04:00] must be on his mother’s side because his relationship out here is all Trinidad. JJ: All Trinidad. They’re from San Salvador or -- 37 �RT: No. The Jiménez are from San Salvador. It would be my mother’s side. But right before you get to San Salvador, there’s a place called La Lomita, and that’s where the Trinidads are. There’s -- JJ: (inaudible). RT: It’s next to the telephone place over there. They got like a little telephone company -- or not company, station. JJ: But it’s on San Salvador, right? RT: Yeah, it’s on the way to San Salvador. And so you got Domingo living there, then you’ve got Chaleco -- these are brothers. Then you have Cholom, then you have Rogelio. JJ: So Chaleco, Cholom, and Rogelio. RT: Domingo -- they’re all brothers. JJ: [01:05:00] Of your father? RT: They’re all Trinidads. No, no, they’re cousins. JJ: They’re cousins of your father. RT: Yeah. JJ: But the whole Trinidads are from there, La Lomita. RT: Right. So they’re related through father’s side, I believe. JJ: Okay, so (inaudible)? What do you know about him? RT: Well, I don’t know. He worked nights most of the time. Like I said -- JJ: Does he (inaudible) or anything? RT: Well, I survived the car crash. (laughter) JJ: So he was (inaudible). 38 �RT: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible). (laughter) RT: Oh, yeah. That’s right, yeah. No, he took me to music lessons and stuff like that. And then after a while, he was paying -- JJ: What did he play? RT: He played cuatro. So, anyways, after a while, [01:06:00] he says, “Man, for $15 a lesson and go, ding, ding, ding, I could show you that myself.” (laughter) So he got me a guitar and I just -- JJ: So he taught me? RT: Yeah, I got me a chord book, and I learned all the chords and I practiced. And during Christmas, give parranda. JJ: Okay, so you used to do parranda (inaudible) Christmas. Did he sing, too? RT: Yeah, he was a good trovador. He used to improvise. JJ: And who else? RT: Him and his friend, Cornejo, they used to do that. And then he had some other friends out there that also played. Felix Mendoza, people from church that he met. We used to go fishing once in a while. [01:07:00] He used to like to go fishing. We used to go -- JJ: What kind of fishing was it? RT: We used to go out to the Mississippi River and catch cats -- JJ: Catfish? RT: Yeah, and stuff. It was pretty good. Nice ride and -- JJ: All the way to the Mississippi River? 39 �RT: Yeah. We used to stay overnight, camp out. JJ: (inaudible). RT: Bowling. (laughter) JJ: Bowling, too? RT: Yeah, we had a team. Okay, it was in Gage Park. I think Margaret was bowling, and the old man was bowling, and they asked me if I wanted to try out and join their team bowling, so I did. And we bowled for a while. Then we got her brother in it, George. He was part of the team. [01:08:00] And one time we took first place and everything, trophies. F: It was called La Familia. RT: Oh, La Familia. We got pictures at La Familia. JJ: You can answer questions, too. F: Yeah, I’m just saying that. RT: No, she’s reminding me of stuff that I’m skipping. But, anyway, so we did that. And when we were going to the Army, since we were hanging out and everything, he had this big party at the house. He took the two maracas -- he took one maraca from the set that we had, and he cut it in half, and then he took that half, inverted it, glued the other thing on it, he made a cup -- a wine cup out of it. Half of the maraca up there, the other half holding it as you lay it. And he filled it with whatever (inaudible) juice we were drinking at that time, and we saluded because in a couple of days, [01:09:00] I’d be out of there. I was gonna get shipped out. So we saluded, nice, everything. Basically, the rest of the story 40 �I told you. But I never played a lot of dominoes with him. That was him and his buddies. JJ: So they played? RT: Yeah, he used to like to play dominoes. And he’d go -- what was the name of that place? (Spanish) [01:09:32] JJ: (inaudible). RT: Yeah, they played dominoes there, and some people do this serious. They even got into a league where they took -- there were champs here, and then they had to go to New York, somewhere, to play against them. Me, I couldn’t play with the old man too much because whenever you make a mistake, [01:10:00] “What are you doing? (inaudible)?” (laughter) I said, “That’s it. No dominoes.” People get rowdy, man. F: He also played ball. RT: Oh, yeah. He played ball. JJ: Softball? RT: Yeah. They used him as a pitcher. JJ: (Spanish) [01:10:24]. RT: Yes. Concilio Numero 1. JJ: Concilio Numero 1. RT: Yeah. And before that, he was in Concilio Numero 3. But in Concilio Numero 1, he used to throw this dead ball underneath, and I guess it must have had a spin, everybody kept popping it up to the infield. (laughter) “No, not Pablo.” There he goes, with all of this, and he’d go -- he does it and then it pops it up to the infield. 41 �(laughter) They’re trying to hit it out the park, right? Yeah, I think with the revolution, it just -JJ: [01:11:00] (inaudible). RT: And then, I don’t know, one day he got in some kind of argument over -- I don’t know if it was a safe call or whatever it was. And they used to bring beers in coolers to the games and stuff, and the old man must have been a little bit lit, and he got in there because I don’t know if he was managing it at the time or something, but he says, “You gotta stop talking like that, man, or I’m gonna pick you up and cool you off in that pond.” The guy said, “You gonna do what?,” and he went over there and he grabbed him, he dragged him to the -- what was it? F: The lagoon. RT: The Sherman Park lagoon. (laughter) JJ: He was serious. RT: Yeah, they had to stop him from throwing the umpire in the water. (laughter) JJ: Before we get into Concilio Numero 1, what about your mom? What was she like? Doñe Nine, right? [01:12:00] What was Nine’s real name? RT: Christina. JJ: Oh, Christina Jiménez. RT: Yeah. Well, she started to have a problem later on with the beers and stuff, but other than that, she was always -- everybody that came from PR ended up at the house -- her apartment. Her policy was you’re all welcome, and she’d cook for them, let them stay there until they got their jobs and everything. So she was all good and everything. I guess maybe what happened after that was -- I don’t 42 �know, it could have even been that she was left alone too many times. (inaudible) doing stuff like that. And then she starts feeling hurt, and then, you know -- but she got sick later on from that. And then I believe it was diabetic that got her -- [01:13:00] diabetes. F: Yeah, she was, but she spoiled him. Remember, “Take your dad’s keys?” RT: Yeah. I wanted to borrow the car and, like I said, he wouldn’t lend me another car. (laughs) I think somebody from here gave him a ’63 Chevy red, real nice, and I wanted to use it to take the girl out. And so then he wouldn’t let me -- “No, I need that car for work. You’re gonna mess it up.” So then she went over there -he was sleeping, she took the keys, “Here, hurry up. Bring it back in one piece.” (laughter). Anyway, that’s basically it. After that -- JJ: I want to ask you about Council Number One? What was that story? RT: [01:14:00] Council Number One was just a concilio like Caballero de San Juan. JJ: Yeah, but how come they were first and then -- they were smaller than the Concilio -- RT: Why they’re called number one? JJ: Yeah. RT: I don’t know, but I think that before three, before Caballero de San Suan, Concilio Numero 3, the people were there, one of the first migrations was to south, way down there. And that’s where they had the first concilio. And those people moved this way, and that’s why they were one. They made this one. JJ: (inaudible) 63rd Street? 43 �F: No. You know what? In reality, to tell you the truth, I don’t -- I think that the way they got their numbers were when the cardinals committee, they went -- I think it might have been like they picked numbers because I don’t think it was this one was formed first, that one. When they became -- RT: A lot of people told me that the people from the [01:15:00] south side, we were the only ones basically there -- that went there from the north side. A lot of those people there came from south Chicago. F: And from (inaudible) Indiana. RT: Yeah. They made the south side community. F: But the concilios were picked at the cardinals committee, and it didn’t matter because there were concilios all over. And I think what it was is they picked numbers for the groups, for the different churches. And then after that, as another church got people, then they became the next number because I think that at the beginning there were only three. RT: Yeah, I don’t remember 10. F: No, because what happens -- RT: But then they started doing it against -- JJ: Who was Holy Name Cathedral? I thought they would be the first one. F: I’m telling you I think is that I think they picked numbers. And you know what? I’ll find out for you because my mom [01:16:00] would know. She would know. RT: Yeah, because the only ones that we knew was three from Lincoln Park and Humboldt Park -- and Humboldt Park is actually where you saw a lot of the 44 �different ones coming from different places. But being part or close to considering them ours would be three, and then the south side was one. JJ: And then you said the people from the south side were telling you that they came from Indiana and south Chicago? RT: Yeah, they migrated there from -- the majority of them used to live out by Euclid whatever -- F: The (inaudible). JJ: And then they migrated -- when you say to Chicago, you mean -- RT: To the south side of Chicago. JJ: Commercial? RT: No, no. On Garfield Boulevard. Garfield all the way to 63rd, right around that area. Right about, say like, Ashland all the way to [01:17:00] -- used to be -what’s the street? Our Monkey Man and all these guys -- F: Morgan? RT: No, no, no. East, going more east. You got Halsted, then you go east. Union. From Union -- JJ: Into Ashland? RT: Yeah ’cause they had that park over on that side, too, and that’s what they used to -- JJ: Yeah, (inaudible) Park. F: 51st Street to -- RT: 63rd. F: -- to 60th because nobody -- 45 �RT: Yeah, 63rd was a commercial area. F: Cut off. But what happened was people came -- you had to understand -- from Indiana -- from Puerto Rico, they went to Indiana. From Indiana, they moved over to south Chicago. From south Chicago, they moved to 63rd and Stony Island underneath the railroad track. From there, then they moved to 55th Street. How did that happen? Every time one family moved, when the other family needed a place to live, they moved, [01:18:00] and they left the steel mills. Then everybody was working in Chicago not in Indiana. So that was the migration because they didn’t want to do the steel mills no more. People were actually getting sick. RT: Yeah. That’s how (inaudible) died. Respiratory problems from all that -- JJ: (inaudible) hotels, or some people worked at the hotels. F: You know what? A lot of the hotel workers -- that happened later. I mean when (inaudible) and them got jobs, it was later, we were already (inaudible). JJ: I know, but (inaudible). But I’m talking even before this, there were people that -well, we have to look that up because (inaudible). F: Yeah, I don’t know about that. JJ: Ask your mother. You’ll have to ask your mother. F: My mom wouldn’t know about that. My mom would not know about that because she never worked, she never left the house. RT: Anybody that would know more about them would be you because of your father because your father -- if there’s [01:19:00] anybody to know it would be her old man. everybody knows him. He was always (inaudible). 46 �F: In reality, once people got into Chicago from Indiana, everyone went their separate ways job-wise. It wasn’t that the community got you a job. JJ: Okay, can you just give me any last thoughts, last word, anything like that? RT: Well, the last words is everything happens for a reason, and the reason we kept moving and finally ended to a place that we loved and then the job closed. And now we find ourselves here and I think it’s all been uphill. We never went back. Sometimes people try to go where they can’t afford [01:20:00] or fit, and they end up coming back. I think we’ve did a lot of accomplishment since we’ve been married. In our younger times, there’s not too much to say because I didn’t serve no jail time. (laughs) JJ: You never served any jail time? RT: No. I mean overnight maybe, a little DUI or something. I think I only had one in 20, 30 years. F: Forty. RT: But other than that, no. How do you say it, honorably discharged? Hey, helped me a lot. Helped me to become a tech man. That’s what I was doing. END OF VIDEO FILE 47 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/99beff67eabae6f9b46153a6771b296a.mp4 2fdfab64606acc9541396604171caf23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ricci Trinidad vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Trinidad_Ricci Title A name given to the resource Ricci Trinidad interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Trinidad, Ricci Description An account of the resource Ricci Trinidad grew up in Lincoln Park. He describes his memories of the neighborhood, including the work of his parents, Pablo Trinidad Resto and Cristina “Nine” Jiménez. Doña Nine, as Mr. Trinidad’s mother was called, was a businesswoman. Early on as a new immigrant in the early 1950s she opened a restaurant, financing it with only her own funds in the La Clark neighborhood at Wells and Superior Streets. She began by cooking for the new immigrant men who were working to bring their families from Puerto Rico to Chicago in her converted, connecting room apartment at the Water Hotel. The restaurant was creative and domino leagues were organized to serve the patrons and to increase the restaurant’s bottom line. In his early years, he, William, and José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez – who were cousins and close friends -- rode bicycles and skateboards down the cobbled streets of Superior, downtown, and through the Oak Street and North Avenue beaches. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7442af7b350efdfc631df8aa43e3f9da.pdf 2eba57fd0d42b0ebdfc29555c359fafa PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carmen Trinidad Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/17/2012 Biography and Description Carmen Trinidad’s family arrived in Lincoln Park in the 1950s. She was one of only a few Puerto Rican families to attend St. Michael’s Church in those days, although the neighborhood had already become heavily Puerto Rican. She recalls her father’s, Cesario Rivera’s, work as a leader of Council Number Three of the Caballeros de San Juan at St. Michael’s. She also remembers the way that organizations like the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María started and sustained softball leagues, picnics, social dances and dinners, retreats, plays, parades, festivals, and the establishment of a credit that still exists to this day. �Transcript CARMEN TRINIDAD: I was born in Bronx, New York, and I lived in New Jersey, North New Jersey, ’til about the age of 13. However, we would come back to Puerto Rico for a year or two ’cause I lived with my grandmother and my other cousins because, of course, the parents worked, and, being that everybody was Puerto Rican, you didn’t go to a American or an Anglo-speaking home to be babysat. So, we would stay with my grandparents, and then -JOSE JIMENEZ: CT: And what town was this? In Isabela. Okay? And then, when I was 13, I came to Puerto Rico. I was in seventh grade, and my dad felt that it was time for me to come and live with him because he could offer me something better in Chicago. He had lived in New York until he got married, and -- because he went to pick tomatoes. That’s how he [00:01:00] got to New York. And then, from there, he moved to Indiana, where the steel mills were. There was some family there, and the Puerto Rican community, as such, came from Indiana to South Chicago to the North Side. That’s how they migrated, and everybody worked in the steel mill. So, my dad got married, and then he moved to Chicago. JJ: Okay. Let’s backtrack a little bit before that. CT: Okay. JJ: So, you were born in the Bronx. So, what do you remember of the Bronx at that time? 1 �CT: I don’t remember anything because I didn’t live there. I was just born there, and then I came to live in Puerto Rico -- JJ: Okay, in Isa-- CT: -- in Isabela. JJ: What do you remember of Isabela? CT: Oh, I remember -- oh, my God. That was just so awesome. I remember that we lived in a house across the street from the school, and there was, like, a irrigation canal, el canal, and water would [00:02:00] flow through there, and that was our swimming pool. We would all go, and get in there, and take a -- not a bath ’cause we had water, but it was like a pool, and we would go in there, and we’d go to school across the street. JJ: Okay. (inaudible). (break in audio) CT: Name is Carmen Trinidad. My maiden name was Carmen Rivera Perez ’cause, here in Puerto Rico, you have to use those names, not your married name. But, like I was saying, Isabela was wonderful. The school across the street had trees, almond trees, so that was our favorite thing, to go in there and collect the almonds from the trees, and then we would break them. We’d crack ’em with a rock because, of course, we weren’t gonna carry a hammer. But the school only had two classrooms. [00:03:00] The teachers’ name -- I’m telling you, I can remember like it was today -- Ms. Avarello and Ms. Ortiz. Ms. Avarello was a very rich, rich woman. Her husband owned all the sugarcane fields that were in the valley. 2 �JJ: So, there were a bunch of sugarcane fields in Isabela. CT: Yes, at that time. JJ: And Isabela is what part of Puerto Rico? What --? CT: It’s on the -- JJ: The east side, or --? CT: The west ’cause San Juan is the east. JJ: Okay, San Juan, but it’s up north, around San Juan? CT: Up north. It’s right next to Aguadilla, Quebradillas, Camuy. They’re all very close. JJ: All around there. Okay. CT: Okay? Anyway, if you went to -- the classes were divided where you went -- first and second grade went in the morning, third and fourth in the afternoon. Okay? The following year, they would go three and four and five -- you know, [00:04:00] and then the last class would go into the town to school. Okay? Because they couldn’t fit all the grades. But, sometimes, when there weren’t enough students, everybody was all put together in the same classroom. Okay? So, you might have had three, four, and fifth graders in the same classroom, but it was nice. And then, during recess, we could go home ’cause it was like a 15-minute recess, and I lived right across the street, so, of course, we went home, and our grandma used to give us coffee. Can you imagine that? We were so little, and that was the main thing. You drank coffee. And the culture at that time -because, I mean, there was no new technology. The way the culture was, you’d still drink out of a bottle, and they’d put coffee in there, and we’d come home, lay 3 �on the bed, and drink out of a Coke bottle with the little nipple on it. We used to drink coffee. JJ: In the Coke bottle? CT: [00:05:00] Yeah, can you --? JJ: (inaudible). CT: No, no, no. And it wasn’t Coke. It was coffee. My grandma used to save the bottles, and that’s how we -- that was our snack at recess. I lived in a home with my grandmother and my grandfather, and my grandfather still had tobacco plants. JJ: What was your grandmother’s name, and grandfather? CT: My grandmother’s name was Aurelia Concepción Concepción. No, Concepción Feliciano. My grandfather’s name was José Perez Concepción, and they were cousins, and my grandfather -- JJ: First cousins or third cousins? CT: First cousins. JJ: First cousins. CT: Let me tell you the history. My grandfather’s family came from Spain, his parents. Okay. He was born in Puerto Rico, and the family was connected. I mean, there were cousins. I don’t know how, where -- ’cause I really don’t know that history too much, but my [00:06:00] grandfather married his first cousin, and she died in childbirth. Okay? So, then, he married her cousin. Okay? And they had two children. When she was having her third child, she died. She was my grandmother’s sister. So, then, he married the sister. All in the family because 4 �everybody lived in a little town, and that’s why, today in Puerto Rico, you hear it said, “(Spanish) [00:06:31] las Vega.” Okay? Vega was the name of everybody who lived there. (Spanish) [00:06:37]. Everybody who lived in that little -JJ: Named after the family. CT: Right, and they all married each other, and, you know, was no big thing for cousins to marry. JJ: But this was what time? What period? CT: This was my grandparents’ time. My grandfather was born in the 1800s. JJ: 1800s. CT: When I was born, my grandfather [00:07:00] was 80 years old. Okay? My grandfather died at 110. Okay? So, he lived a long, healthy life, you know? And he always walked around with a machete, and they used to call him el varon, meaning he was manly, and everyone respected him. He didn’t know how to write. He couldn’t write his name. He just made a cross. Somehow, he was very smart mathematically. He used to do our homework for us. “Oh, how much is twelve times four?” He’d give you an answer. He had a store, and, during the Depression, he sold bread. He had this old mule, and he’d put my uncle on one side of the basket and my aunt on the other, and they’d walk up and down el barrio, selling a piece of bread for a penny, but a piece of bread at that time was a big piece of bread for a penny. [00:08:00] And he had his own cows, and we always had fresh milk, but things change, you know. JJ: So, this was a small town where you had the country right around. 5 �CT: We were in the country. That was considered country. No el pueblo. El pueblo is the city, but yeah. So, when I was 13, I came to Chicago. JJ: Okay. Now, how many siblings? How many siblings? CT: I have one sister from my mother from Isabela. On my dad’s side, which is the side that was in Chicago, I had 10, and one died, so we would have been cheaper by the dozen, you know? Minus one. But yeah. So, when I came to live -- JJ: You didn’t say your father’s name, but I think I (inaudible) -- CT: No, I haven’t said my -- JJ: Okay. What-- CT: -- dad’s name, but my dad’s name was Cesario Rivera García. Okay? And he was from [00:09:00] Caguas, and he lived in this land that we have today. Okay? When I went to live in Chicago, we were living on North Sedgwick, down the block from Lasalle Elementary School. JJ: And before we get there, though, we were talking about -- your father was a tomatero. CT: Okay. Well, I’m going to get to that. I’m gonna give you the history. Okay? I’m just letting you know, we lived in Lincoln Park. Okay? And, for the Puerto Rican community there, Lincoln Park was St. Michael’s Church, El Concilio Numero Tres. A little bit about my dad. My dad lived here in Puerto Rico, in this same land that my husband and I, Ricci and I, are living in ’cause we bought it from him. But my dad, at the -- [00:10:00] he made his first quarter, like he used to say, selling bootleg rum, caña, here in Puerto Rico. My dad never could have 6 �gone into the service because, as a small kid here, he cut his finger on one of those old-fashioned lawnmowers, so my dad was minus a part of his finger. So, he went to New York to pick tomatoes, and his story was that they were living in this -- you want to call it a barrack, like an army barrack-type thing, but they had all these beds, and all these Puerto Ricans were living there, and nobody knew how to cook. Okay? My dad did. So, my dad started making arroz con gandules, a little sopa, and all kinds of Puerto Rican good. Eventually, he [00:11:00] got tired of picking tomatoes, and he hooked up with a family member, and, from up north, wherever it was that they were picking tomatoes, he came to live in the Bronx, in New York, and his job, his first real job here in the mainland, was as a dishwasher in a restaurant. JJ: In the Bronx. CT: In the Bronx. And that’s when he met my mom. Okay? JJ: And your mom’s name? CT: My mother’s name was Ramona Perez Concepción. Then, my dad’s -- he had some family members that live in Indiana. My dad left that job there in New York and moved to Indiana, started working at the steel mills, and that was the first community of Puerto Ricans in Indiana. JJ: In what town? CT: [00:12:00] You know what? I really -- JJ: East -- was it Hammond, Indiana? CT: Somewhere -- where the steel mills are. JJ: Where the steel mills are. 7 �CT: Okay? I have no idea. JJ: East Chicago. East Chicago, Hammond. CT: East -- probably Chicago, but it’s in Indiana. Not East Chicago, Illinois. JJ: Chicago, yeah. CT: No, it’s in Indiana. It’s across the border. You cross the border, the street, and one side was Indiana, and the other side was -- JJ: So, you went straight from the Bronx there. CT: Straight there. JJ: Why did he go there? Did he know other people there? CT: Yes. He had some family members that told him, “You can work in the steel mills and make a lot more money than what you’re making --” JJ: (Spanish) [00:12:33]. CT: No, in the restaurant -- JJ: In the restaurant. CT: -- because he had already left the tomato picking. So, when he got to Indiana that he was working at the steel mills, all these men lived in boarding houses, you know, rooms, a little furnished room with a bed and whatever. JJ: Oh, they had boarding houses. CT: No kitchen privileges. So, they would look [00:13:00] for other family members or people in the community who would cook, and one of them was my stepmother’s family. So, he went to this house, and he would pay 10 dollars or whatever it was that they paid at that time. I think it was like three dollars a week to eat, and my stepmother was the cook, and that’s how they met, and he was living in her 8 �aunt’s house, and her aunt was a schoolteacher because she was bilingual at the time and spoke English. Okay? All the members of that community, their children used to go to that school, and her aunt used to be, like, the interpreter and the teacher. JJ: Okay. Can you say what happened to your real mother? That’s your stepmother. CT: My real mother stayed in New York, and she continued on with her life, and I have a sister [00:14:00] from her. Okay? My mother passed away right before we moved to Puerto Rico. But that’s how I have family in Isabela and in New Jersey that I go back to. That’s my real mother’s family. However, I spend more time with my stepmother’s family than my real family, and, as a result, they’re like my aunts. They’re -- JJ: And does she still live in Indiana, or is she --? CT: Okay. So, they moved to Chicago. All right? And my dad got a job at Wrigley’s gum factory. JJ: (inaudible). CT: Wrigley’s gum. It was on 35th and -- I want to say Ashland. I think it was Ashland. JJ: They were on the South Side. CT: Yeah, Ashland, on the South Side. But they lived up north. So -- JJ: Okay, so they lived -- CT: -- I didn’t live with them at the time. Okay? JJ: They lived up north, and then they went to work there. 9 �CT: Right. [00:15:00] He went to work on Ashland, on the South Side. JJ: Did you live on Sedgwick, or --? CT: No, they lived up north. I think it was something like Wheeler or -- JJ: Weyland? CT: Weyland or -- I don’t know. Something with a W. All right. So, then, they saved enough money -- well, first of all, my dad used to take the bus because, of course, they didn’t have enough money, but, when he went to work at Wrigley’s, he was able to buy himself a little car. That was the very first big thing they had. By that time, she had the three kids, my sister, who follows me, and two brothers. So, they saved enough money that they were able to buy a house on Sedgwick, so they were one of the first -- JJ: Sedgwick and North Avenue. CT: Mm-hmm. But, at that same time, there was another community, which was your family that lived [00:16:00] on LaSalle Street. JJ: LaSalle Street. Right, right. (inaudible). CT: Okay? Right. So, I can’t talk about that ’cause I never -- JJ: Lived there, yeah. CT: -- lived there, so I’m gonna talk about Sedgwick. So, my dad bought this house on Sedgwick, and then my mom’s family started moving to Chicago. Okay? Her sisters. And then, they got apartments. JJ: What year was this, about? More or less. More or less. CT: More or less. JJ: Rough estimate. 10 �CT: About 1956. JJ: ’56. CT: ’57. Okay? Eventually, everybody came. They all lived at my mom and dad’s house ’cause that’s the way it was. Families would come, and they all lived there ’til they were able to afford an apartment and move on. My stepmother’s name is Luz María Chévere, so it was the Chévere family [00:17:00] that moved. So, they bought a house, a building, the Chévere family, on North Mohawk. JJ: Your mom is a Chévere. CT: My mom’s a Chévere, my stepmom, which I consider like my mom ’cause I grew up with her, and -- JJ: ’Cause they were big in the El Concilio Numero Tres. CT: Okay. So, there were different concilios, okay? It started out with one, two, and three. Okay? That area became Concilio Numero Tres. Okay? So, my dad was a very, very religious person, and, of course, he joined the Concilio Numero Tres, and he was an active person. He didn’t have much school, but he was very smart. Okay? And his broken English and everything. He became the president of Concilio Numero Tres. There was a big commotion in that area ’cause all these families moved in, and they didn’t [00:18:00] know English, and priests there -- they didn’t want to give them a Mass in Spanish, and they met Father Kathrein, who was the priest that was a German priest at St. Michael’s. Somehow, he gave them the sodality hall. The church was here. There was a sodality hall. It was like a big room. It had a stage. It had chairs. And so, suddenly, the community -- 11 �JJ: About how many people would fit there, about? CT: I would say about -- pushing it? JJ: Yeah. CT: About 300. JJ: About 300, and they had, what? Folding chairs, or --? CT: With folding chairs. JJ: Folding chairs, okay. CT: Folding chairs. And so, that’s when the Mass started. Every Sunday, there was a Spanish Mass, and it was crowded, and that’s how all the people in that area joined the Caballeros de San Juan. JJ: [00:19:00] But they didn’t want to let them in the regular -- CT: At the beginning, no. They didn’t want to give ’em -- not to let them in. They did not have a Spanish Mass, just like in a whole bunch of the other churches in Chicago. Mass was Mass. You went, and it was in Latin, so what did it matter? Okay. But the instructions and the preaching, you know -- JJ: Wasn’t Spanish? CT: They wanted a Spanish Mass. JJ: So, that was one of the goals. CT: That was the first -- JJ: Goal was to get a Mass in Spanish. CT: That was the first thing that they did. Okay? It took a lot. It took people from the community joining together and demanding this from their church, from their parish, because, as you know -- 12 �JJ: Why demanding? That’s kind of a strong word. CT: It was demanding. They demanded it. It wasn’t just, “Can we have one?” They grouped themselves together and went to the church. “We want --” JJ: To the pastor? CT: “We want a Spanish Mass,” and they had to work at it, and [00:20:00] continue, and continue. Once they had that Spanish Mass and they saw how the community banded together and did things, they became suddenly a part of the parish. Okay? The Caballeros de San Juan were acknowledged. This was also the time that Don Jesus had Los Hermanos de la Familia del Dios. JJ: Who is Don Jesus? CT: Don Jesus was -- JJ: Jesus Rodríguez? CT: Jesus Rodríguez was my husband’s father’s cousin, I believe. Either they knew each other or they were related. I really don’t know, but he was also -- how do you say? Involved in getting this Mass together and whatnot. The Cardinals’ Committee had two priests, and I believe it was Father Mahon and Father Donahue. They worked at the [00:21:00] Cardinals’ Committee, and they suddenly became involved with the Caballeros de San Juan city-wide, not just at St. Michael’s. So, this is when my dad started working in the community and for the community that he lived in. Lincoln Park was a huge, big community, and it had different sections. Okay? You have to look at it in terms of -- Lincoln Park was a parish neighborhood. Okay? You had Immaculate Conception. You had St. Mike’s. I can’t even rememb-- 13 �JJ: St. Teresa. CT: Every parish had their community, and they had their community in terms of ethnicity because we don’t want to say race. Okay? Ethnicity. St. Michael’s was a German parish. Okay? But then, suddenly, it became German and Puerto Rican, [00:22:00] and any extra Latino that was around joined because we had a Cuban family that was very close and involved in that community. You had people from South America. It wasn’t just Puerto Ricans, but the majority were Puerto Ricans. So, from St. Mike’s, we had the Caballeros de San Juan, Hermanos de la Familia del Dios. Suddenly, throughout the city, baseball teams were formed from the Cardinals’ Committee. And so, there was a baseball team for the concilios. JJ: The baseball teams came later. CT: Yeah. JJ: And so, St. Michael’s was a big center for the Caballeros, or no? CT: No. Okay. Look at it in terms of -- again, I’m going to go back to the churches because you have to realize that the community [00:23:00] revolved around the church. Okay? The headquarters was the Cardinals’ Committee. Okay? The Cardinals’ Committee was formed to help the Hispanic community from Father Mahon, Father Donahue, and I can’t even -- Father Kathrein. I can’t remember all the names. Father Vanecko. I mean, all these priests worked at the Cardinals’ Committee, and all the churches led back there, all the Hispanic. Okay? So, they decided they were going to have a baseball team, so Concilio Numero One made their team. El Concilio Numero Two had their team. Three 14 �had their team. Okay? And they used to have mascots, and what they used to have were godmothers, la madrina. My husband’s sister was la madrina del Concilio Numero Tres. [00:24:00] Her dad played ball on it. I never -JJ: What does that mean, la madrina del -- CT: It’s a godmother. She was like -- JJ: (inaudible) picture taken, or --? CT: No. She was just there to look pretty, and, you know, everybody had a madrina. That was the way of giving a girl a -- JJ: A recognition. CT: A recognition, and you had mascots. [break in audio] The little kids were the mascots, (Spanish) [00:24:25] for the team, right. JJ: For they team, and they had -- CT: And they had their own little uniform. Okay? They got sponsors for the shirts from -- JJ: Businesses. CT: -- the Hispanic businesses. Okay? All right. So, you had the baseball team. Then, the next big thing that came out of this whole community, all these communities, was when -- I forget which pope decided that you were going to have los Cursillos. JJ: Cursillo, okay. CT: Okay. And that was like a big retreat. [00:25:00] I don’t know the word for it in English. I only know the word for it in Spanish, but they had it for the men. It started out for the men first. What they spoke about in there -- 15 �JJ: Any reason for that, or --? CT: ’Cause the men were the ones -- the women always stayed home, taking care of the kids and everything. The men were the ones that -- the shakers and the movers. Okay? That’s the way it was. So, it started out for the men first. The women eventually got theirs, but it started out with the men, and they went to the Cardinals’ Committee, and they had a retreat. I remember my dad being the cook for these retreats. I remember that my husband made it. His dad and other people we knew. What was spoken there stayed there. It was like a secret society, you could say, and they all had a pin. They were (Spanish) [00:25:58]. Okay? JJ: [00:26:00] And their purpose was what? I mean -- CT: To tell you the truth, it was a religious purpose. You went there, and it was, like, soul cleansing is the only word that I can -- JJ: So, it was a religious purpose. CT: It was a religious experience. I never made one. I would like to some day. Before I die, I would like to do it, but, unless you went there, you don’t know what happened there. JJ: So, they wanted just to cleanse themselves, or to try to get more people into the church? CT: It had nothing to do with getting more people in the church. JJ: Just a -- CT: That was a personal experience. JJ: Personal experience. 16 �CT: It’s like when you go to confession. It’s a personal experience. It’s spiritual. Okay? But that was one of the big things. Okay? Now, let me go back. I went to St. Michael’s Grammar School, and the people that went to Catholic schools at that time -- the parents really had to work very hard to come [00:27:00] up with that tuition money. The one blessing was that you paid the tuition for one kid, and then you had to only pay partial tuition. You know, like, 25 dollars less for the next one. So, our family, in reality, when we went to school, because there were so many of us -- I’m the oldest, and I have 10 brothers and sisters behind me. We really went to school on one tuition. Okay? So, in those days, we were lucky. Today, you pay for every kid, and you pay for your books, and you pay for everything. That’s not the way it was then. So, at St. Mike’s Grammar School, there were not too many Hispanics. Okay? And I’m not gonna say that the nuns were bad to us because they weren’t, but they were very strict, and I had never been in a Catholic school before, and I started in [00:28:00] the middle of eighth grade. JJ: Oh, you didn’t start from first grade? CT: No. Remember, I lived -- JJ: But what about your brothers and sisters? CT: They all went through -- after kindergarten, they all went through grammar school, Catholic grammar school. Every single one. JJ: At St. Michael’s? CT: They started at St. Michael’s, but then we moved out of there, and then it was Visitation, but my oldest brothers and I graduated from St. Mike’s. 17 �JJ: Okay, ’cause you started in eighth grade. CT: I started in eighth grade. It was a very difficult year because there weren’t, like I said, very many Hispanics in that school. Okay? There were in the community, but not in the school. Anyway, I made it through the eighth grade, and then, when I started in high school, that’s when all of these other kids from different areas came to St. Michael’s high school. Okay? There were other [00:29:00] Catholic schools, but St. Michael’s was divided. It had a boy’s side and a girl’s side, and the only time the girls saw the boys were either through the gym, the library, or upstairs in the labs, the chemistry and biology lab. You had separate classes. The School Sisters of Notre Dame ran the girls, and I think the Jesuits ran the boys. No, it wasn’t the Jesuits. Co-Redemptrix priests. JJ: Oh, the Redemptrix priests. I remember. CT: So, anyway, what can I say about the community? St. Michael’s sodality hall, the church sodality hall, was finally -- not given to the Hispanics, but they used it a lot. They used it for church. They used to have dances there. I mean, and these were fantastic dances. I remember going to them. I think if I -- JJ: When you say fantastic, you mean in terms of the [00:30:00] dancing? CT: In terms of the dancing, in terms of the -- they got the groups to come there to play. JJ: The different bands. CT: Right. I can’t remember the names. I don’t want to give a name that’s not the one, but -- JJ: You had dancers like José Rodriguez (inaudible). 18 �CT: Yeah. They danced. And then, this was the time when salsa first started, so, you know, it was a big thing. They had the trios that would come and play. They could actually sell liquor there, and people used to drink. They made money for their club, for the Caballeros de San Juan. Okay? And they helped with the -how do you say? Buying the shirts for the baseball team, and they used to rent Liberty Bell. There was a retreat center there, and they used to use it. JJ: Liberty Bell (inaudible). CT: They used to have all these [00:31:00] excursions, like at Holy Hill. They’d rent a bus. JJ: In Wisconsin? CT: Right. And everybody would get on this bus. JJ: Was that (inaudible) Wisconsin? (inaudible). CT: I don’t know. JJ: Or that was another place. CT: I don’t remember. I always went on the bus. JJ: But Holy Hill -- I remember Holy Hill. CT: Holy Hill, Liberty Bell -- there was another place where they had cabins, and you spend the night for retreats. I went to one of those. There were a lot of things, okay? The next thing -- JJ: They had a plane too, right? CT: Right. I’ll get to that. Okay. The next thing that I remember was that they started a domino league. Okay? And they would go to New York to play. They won trophies, and, I mean, my father-in-law was very good at it. My dad didn’t 19 �play dominoes. My dad knew nothing about dominoes, but he got them [00:32:00] people on that plane, and he got ’em to New York, and he was like the golfer. You know, somebody who did everything. And so, they had that. Then -what’s the beer company in Milwaukee? JJ: I know (inaudible) old Milwaukee, right? They got past blue ribbon. RICCI TRINIDAD: Anheuser-Busch? JJ: Anheuser-Busch? CT: Anheuser-Busch. Okay. How they hooked up with them beats me, but, every year, Concilio Numero Tres had a trip out there, and they treated you to the beer, to this huge luncheon, because they used to sponsor the parades and things like that. Okay? JJ: The Puerto Rican Parade? CT: Right. That hadn’t happened yet, but, because of the domino league and everything, they got -- I went. JJ: [00:33:00] It led to that. It led to that. CT: Yeah, it led to the (inaudible). Oh, it was fantastic. It was really a trip that everybody died to go on. Few were selected, but -- JJ: And your father -- CT: My dad -- JJ: -- Cesario Rivera was organizing that. CT: Organizing that, along with some of the other people. JJ: And the Chéveres, and the (inaudible). 20 �CT: Exactly. So, what happens? There’s this huge, big community in Chicago, and I believe there were 13 councils if I’m not wrong. JJ: About that, yeah. CT: I think there was 13. Anyway, people didn’t know how to go get a loan. Okay? First of all, they didn’t have enough collateral, but what did they do? They formed the first credit union for Puerto Ricans, Latinos, in Chicago, and it was my dad -- JJ: And it still exists today. CT: It exists but not the same way. JJ: (inaudible). CT: They were bought out. [00:34:00] Okay? But you became a socio. Okay? It’s like a (Spanish) [00:34:04], a co-op. You became a member. You had to put so much money into their credit union, and then you could go and ask for a loan. Okay? Not a big thing. They had the money saved and everything. Everybody trusted everybody in those days, and, sure enough, everybody had a member. My dad was number three. His card and his number to this day is number three. Okay? And it grew, and it grew, and it grew, and then, you know, when you get so big -- and people were lent money to put a down payment on a house, buy a car. When I went to college, I needed to have root canal done, and I needed to have fillings done. I went ’cause I was a member, and I got me a loan. [00:35:00] Okay? I paid it back. It took me a long time to pay it back, but, as a college student, I had no money. My parents didn’t have money to get me the root canal work, and it was important that I had that done, so -- 21 �JJ: And you personally knew the bankers. CT: That was the other thing. Okay? But I couldn’t go to my dad to ask him for the loan. I had to go to the treasurer and say, “I need a loan, and I need it for this,” and I had to sign papers and everything. All right. JJ: But I didn’t mean you personally, but most of the people knew the bankers. CT: Everybody knew everybody, and everybody knew you borrowed money, and they knew how much, and they knew if you paid or not. That was the thing, that, you know, you weren’t gonna be late because you lived in that community. As it got bigger, okay? They had to go through the D-- what is it? FDIC, and banking, and whatnot, and it became a legal thing, [00:36:00] and they even had -- at the beginning, their office was at the Cardinals’ Committee, okay? Then, they bought a building on Fullerton, okay? JJ: In the west -- okay, where they’re located now, or --? CT: Yes. Okay? And it got bigger, okay? So, my family was still running that, okay? In terms of the president of the credit union was my cousin, Jeanie Chévere. Okay? And she ran on Washington’s ticket in Chicago. She ran -- JJ: Harold Washington. CT: Mm-hmm. And they lost. She lost the position. She didn’t win, but he made her executive of CTA or whatever it was. So, okay. My cousin has [00:37:00] always been in politics. Today, due to the fact that she worked politics in that community and on the North Side, she was elected to be a judge, and now she’s at federal court. She started as traffic -- JJ: So, she’s a federal judge today. 22 �CT: Yeah. I shouldn’t say federal. She went from traffic court to doing the -- JJ: But is she a judge, or does she work at federal court? CT: No, she’s a judge. JJ: (inaudible). CT: I went to her swearing. JJ: And this is your -- CT: My cousin. I have pictures of who all these people are. Okay? Anyway. So, getting back to the credit union. The credit union became very large. As you had kids and they got older, you opened up an account, and you just put five dollars, ten dollars. By the time -- my sister, my younger sister, didn’t cash her [00:38:00] credit union money in until she had triplets, and she came to Chicago, and -- how was it? She came to Chicago, and she says, “Oh, Mom, it’s the boys’ birthday.” You know, there was three of ’em. And so, she took the money out of the credit union ’cause my mom was on it, and she says, “Here, this is your life savings,” and it was enough to give ’em a birthday party and have money left over. So, you can see how it -- but that was sold, and it became like a bank. It was sold. It’s no longer run by the Caballeros de San Juan. (break in audio) CT: The credit union was sold. To who, I don’t know. The building is still there, and people still have accounts there, but it’s more like a bank now. It’s not a credit union, and [00:39:00] it’s not the Caballeros de San Juan because Caballeros de San Juan -- I don’t know if they exist any longer or what. You would have to go back -- 23 �JJ: I think they became the Hermanos, the Hermanos (inaudible). CT: No. Hermanos de la Familia del Dios is something totally, totally different. JJ: So, what happened to the Las Damas, Las Damas de María of St. Michael’s? CT: Las Damas -- JJ: Do you know anything about them, or --? CT: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I’m just going through little things that I remember. I’ll get to that part too. Okay. So, you have the credit union. You had all these trips. You have the domino league, the baseball league, and the Caballeros de San Juan. Now, they were very famous during -- they used to show movies. Where they got these movies from, I don’t know, but you would go to one of the concilios, and let’s say Concilio Numero Uno had a big dance. Concilio Numero Quatro showed a [00:40:00] movie, and you went, and you actually saw a Spanish movie. You paid your 50 cents or whatever it was at the time. JJ: A regular movie? This is not a religious movie. CT: No, a regular movie. You know, they brought in movies. JJ: So, they were using culture, regular Puerto Rican culture, with the church (inaudible). CT: Right. Right. Okay. So, then, it was the movies. JJ: So, people would pay, and they would see a movie? CT: A movie, and this -- JJ: At the hall? CT: At this hall or at a different hall from the Caballeros de San Juan. JJ: ’Cause they had halls in all the churches. 24 �CT: Right. Then -- JJ: But some of those halls were because they didn’t want ’em in (inaudible). CT: No, no, no. The halls were because they -- how do you say? It was used. It was like a hall. You go in, and you do parties, and you -- JJ: But the Mass was celebrated in (inaudible). CT: In a different place. Okay. So, getting back to the activities they did, [00:41:00] during Lent, they used to put on this big production. Okay? And it was The Passion of the Lord, and, when you talk about The Passion, it was taken right out of the Bible, and they had the spears, and they had the ketchup they would throw out, the blood. It looks really, really real, and you had the cross. People were actually dressed like them, and you had all these seamstresses making all these outfits for this play. Came Christmas time, and you had the Nativity, and it was reenacted, Mary going into labor and the baby being born. JJ: So, you had two plays -- CT: Yeah. JJ: -- a year. Two plays a year. CT: Mm-hmm. JJ: And who was part of these plays? CT: Whoever wanted to try out and be part of it. JJ: So, just any normal -- CT: Any Latino in Chicago, [00:42:00] the whole area of Chicago because everybody knew who was going to put on the play, and you’d go, and if you wanted to help or be part of it. 25 �JJ: And then, did you have professional theater people? CT: No. No. No. No. JJ: It was just anyone -- CT: This was just the community. JJ: ’Cause it looked very professional, but it was two plays a year. CT: Two plays a year. It looked professional, and I’ll tell you again, they made their costumes, or they rented them, or -- you know, it wasn’t so much what they said. It was how it was done. Okay? I remember, for the Christmas play -- I was in one of the Christmas -- I was the angel. All right? I remember the wings were out of cardboard, and they were covered, and then you sewed the material, and you put the glitter, and -- beautiful wings. I still have my picture as an angel, and it was just gorgeous, and, when you saw everything, oh, my God. It was beautiful, but it was done by the community. No outside [00:43:00] help. All right? So, they had that. Now -- JJ: So, now, who would come to see it? There was a community, but, I mean, about how many --? CT: It was -- JJ: About how many people? CT: It was, again, every president, vice president. They would go to the Cardinals’ Committee for a meeting, and everybody knew what was going on in their churches, and they’d come back and say, “Oh, there’s gonna be a dance in Concilio Numero Tres such and such a day. I have the tickets. You want them? I have the tickets for the play. How many tickets do you want?” 26 �JJ: So, they would fill up the place. CT: Oh, yeah. JJ: But I’m trying to figure out -- CT: It’d fill up -- standing room. JJ: Let’s say the Christmas play when you were there. CT: Mm-hmm. JJ: About how many people? A hundred? Two hundred? Three hundred? CT: You know, I can’t go back and tell you. I mean, I was a kid. JJ: But it wasn’t -- CT: It looked to me like thousands. JJ: Okay, (inaudible) like thousands. CT: It was always packed, and people were standing in the hall, windows, looking. I mean -- JJ: [00:44:00] Because, at that time, the Lincoln Park community had a lot of Puerto Ricans. CT: It had a lot of Puerto Ricans. Okay? And not only that, but remember, I’m going back to the church. The church was city-wide, so city-wide people would come see these plays, just like, city-wise, people would come to the dances. JJ: Now, was St. Michael’s a unique (inaudible)? CT: St. Michael’s was one of the most -- how should I say? Active councils. Okay? It was the most active council, okay? Because you had so many good people. It was Calvino (inaudible). It was my dad, my uncles, Rick’s dad, Don Jesus. There’s a lot of people. Okay? A lot. A lot of people. What else can I tell you 27 �about the community in that area? Because, again, I don’t want to speak about the [00:45:00] South Side ’cause that’s totally -JJ: Yeah, that’s a different -- CT: The Puerto Ricans moved from there -- JJ: Around what year? CT: -- to the South Side and from there up north -- JJ: Around what year? CT: I will tell you it was in ’66. JJ: ’66, they moved from there to the -- CT: South Side. JJ: South Side. To Visitation Parish, that area? CT: Right. And then -- JJ: Which is on 60 -- CT: -- from Indiana, from East Chicago -- JJ: Visitation is what? On 63rd? CT: On 55th and Peoria. JJ: 55th and Peoria, okay. CT: What happened was the people from South Chicago moved to 55th Street. They had a realtor. Okay? His name was Ernito Gómez. JJ: Ernito Gómez, okay. CT: Okay? He was the Puerto Rican realtor. He moved them there. “(Spanish) [00:45:55]. There’s a house here. It’s a perfect house for you.” JJ: [00:46:00] (inaudible). 28 �CT: Eugenio Gómez. JJ: Eugenio Gómez. CT: Okay? JJ: But he was from Indiana or from --? CT: He eventually came from the South Side of Chicago to that area. JJ: To (inaudible). CT: They were south, real far south, East Chicago. They moved to 55th. JJ: What year was that? CT: In the ’60s. JJ: In the ’60s, okay. Okay. CT: A lot of the Puerto Ricans on the North Side who knew Ernito -- like, Ernito and my dad were compadres, okay? He moved my dad. I’m telling you, he found my dad this huge, big house on the South Side, a big boarding house. He moved him there. And then, because my dad moved there, my aunt and uncle moved, and everybody moved south. JJ: So, why were people moving, though? I mean, besides the real estate guy, why did people --? CT: Cheaper. Bigger homes. Where we lived, there was only three bedrooms, [00:47:00] and then, we were 10 kids. Okay? There was no room. All right? And so, the time was good to sell. My dad should have never sold that house because, today, it would be worth a fortune. JJ: You’re talking about the house on Sedgwick? CT: On Sedgwick. Lincoln Park. 29 �JJ: So, the time was good to sell at that time. CT: Time was good to sell. JJ: So, a lot of Puerto Ricans were selling at that time? CT: They were selling and moving south or moving far north. JJ: ’66, 1966. CT: Okay. Because, remember, there was Waller School south of North Avenue, and then there was one on -- JJ: (inaudible) Franklin? CT: There was one on Armitage, another high -- JJ: The one on Armitage was Waller. Waller. CT: Waller. JJ: It was on Armitage. CT: Okay, so, which one was the one further south? Margaret went there to -- JJ: To Cooley? CT: Cooley. JJ: Cooley. CT: Okay. So, remember -- JJ: Margaret went to Cooley? CT: Yeah. JJ: Okay, Cooley -- CT: To become a beautician. JJ: Cooley High, okay. 30 �CT: Okay, so, [00:48:00] remember, you’re from Waller, and you’re Cooley, and you’re in the middle. You want to get out. The neighborhoods -- the border lines were changing. The Hispanics were afraid. Okay? You couldn’t move east ’cause that’s already blocked from you. JJ: Why? CT: ’Cause it was white. JJ: Okay, east was white. CT: Right, east -- by the lake. JJ: So, we’re talking about race and ethnicity. CT: We’re not talking about that. We’re talking about economy. JJ: Economy, okay. CT: Economy, okay? JJ: So, the east was rich. CT: East was the lake. JJ: Rich white. CT: Right. How could you move to a high rise? How could you buy a house on -what was that street called? The one before the lake. JJ: Clark Street. CT: Clark. You know? It was money. If you moved further west, okay? It wasn’t considered [00:49:00] good. JJ: Why was that? What was on the west? CT: That was ethnicity. JJ: That was ethnicity. 31 �CT: That was racial, not ethnicity. That was racial. Puerto Ricans didn’t want to move where the Blacks were. Okay? So, they had one of two choices. Either go north or go south. JJ: Okay. And that’s what they did. CT: Exactly. They either move up to the North Side, or they move to the South Side. That was it. JJ: So, they either went to Lakeview or Uptown or -- CT: Uptown. JJ: -- they went west to the Humboldt Park -- CT: Right. JJ: -- or they went south. CT: Even Humboldt Park at that time wasn’t considered to be good. Okay? JJ: Because there was not Puerto Ricans at that time. CT: No, it was Puerto Rican. It was Puerto Rican -- JJ: But it was -- CT: -- but -- economy. Remember, economy has a lot of things to do with crime. JJ: Right, so it was poor. It was poor. CT: It was poor. JJ: It was poor, okay. CT: Okay? So, you either moved north, or you either moved south. My dad moved south, not because of -- JJ: Because (inaudible). 32 �CT: -- economy or anything. It was because the house was big. A 19-room house. How could you go [00:50:00] wrong? And you have 11 kids. JJ: Nineteen rooms? That many rooms? CT: It had 19 rooms, all together. JJ: And how much was the house? CT: I don’t know. I don’t know. My parents’ financial status at that time was not shared with the kids. Anyway, so -- JJ: What did your father do before (inaudible)? CT: My dad worked at Wrigley’s gum company. JJ: Oh, yeah, Wrigley’s gum company. That’s right. That’s right. I’m sorry. CT: Okay. Okay, so, we moved south at that time, but, getting back to the Lincoln Park area, okay? Again, like I said, the church was the pillar of the community. Everything you did revolved around the church. All right? So, the Puerto Rican community at St. Michael’s suddenly became part of the church, so there was a carnival every year. Okay? And every [00:51:00] organization in the church had to have a booth, and you ran the booth, and whatever the booth made, you know, was -- how do you say? Oh, this group got so much. Okay? So, the Puerto Ricans make Puerto Rican food. They sell it there, and, sure enough, one year, they were the ones that made the most money. Okay? So, that was like a plus, but, at that carnival, everybody came, and that was one of the activities that pulled the whole community from St. Michael’s together. JJ: The whole -- all the blocks around. 33 �CT: Everybody. Whatever organization you belonged to, ’cause you had to work it, and you had a -- JJ: So, it slowly became more and more Puerto Rican at that carnival ’cause it was a yearly -- CT: No, St. Michael’s never became more Puerto Rican. Okay? It never became more German. [00:52:00] It stayed the same way it was. JJ: For years? CT: For years. Okay? Once I moved out of there, they even sold the boys’ high school and made -- the rectory. The high schools were torn down. It was sold, okay? So, the church stood, but not the school and not the sodality hall. All of that was sold. Okay? Became condos. You know, I’ve never been back there to see it, but this is what I’ve been told. Okay? At that time, one of the things was you went to -- there’s a hospital, Children’s Memorial Hospital, and, every time a child got sick, that’s the only hospital everybody knew, Children’s Memorial, ’cause the adults didn’t go to the hospital. It was the kids, [00:53:00] and that was a famous hospital to take care of the children and get them vaccinated and whatnot. They had free clinics where you could go. My dad did the grocery shopping, and he used to go to the A&P. All the Puerto Ricans went to the A&P. JJ: Right on North Avenue, or --? CT: It was right there on Sedgwick Street. Okay? Closer to North Avenue. It wasn’t that far away. JJ: Were there other businesses on North Avenue that were Puerto Rican? 34 �CT: No, I don’t remember any. To tell you the truth, I don’t remember any on North Avenue. JJ: But I know they had a theater, Puerto Rican theater. CT: Yeah, I don’t remember on North Avenue. Everybody shopped at the A&P, and you got stamps. JJ: You never went to (inaudible) on North Avenue? CT: No. Well, that’s -- when? Back in those days or now? JJ: No, no. That wasn’t in those days. CT: No. I don’t -- you know. [00:54:00] The A&P. Getting back to the A&P. JJ: Let’s get back to the A&P. CT: They gave you these little green stamps. Okay? And all the Puerto Ricans were collecting -- JJ: S&H. S&H. CT: The S&H stamps. JJ: Yeah, I remember. CT: You remember that? JJ: I remember. CT: Everybody collected the S&H stamps. Okay? And then, you went, and you cashed them in at -- Goldblatt’s, was it? JJ: Yeah, right. CT: Okay. JJ: Right. Right. 35 �CT: I got my first set of dishes when I got married from those stamps, and my dad bought -- with S&H stamps at Goldblatts, he bought me a set of dishes. I still have ’em. Anyway, long story, but, anyway, I still have those dishes, and they were from S&H, and everybody -- if you needed one stamp to fill up your card so you could get something, you would ask somebody, “Hey, you went to the store. I just need one.” You know? So, that was like a trade-off between the [00:55:00] people in the community, a stamp. The other thing they used to sell was (Spanish) [00:55:04]. I don’t know if you remember that. JJ: Yeah, (Spanish) [00:55:09]. You put them -- how do you say--? CT: There was a card, and you would open it, and, whatever that card said, you paid, and then you might get a gift. I forgot what it was called, but that was a big thing, okay? I mean, that was a really big thing. The other big thing in the community at that time, okay? And I’m talking about before I was 16 ’cause, at 16, we moved to the South Side. Okay? The other big thing in the community -- okay, you had your S&H stamps. You had (Spanish) [00:55:48]. Oh, my God. I was gonna mention something, and it just disappeared. All right. The church [00:56:00] women ’cause that’s a big thing. Okay? Most of the women stayed at home and took care of the kids if there was a lot of kids, and they would babysit for each other and whatnot. Okay? In our house, my mother never went anywhere. She went to church, and we all had to go with them, and that’s when you put on your Sunday shoes ’cause you only had two pairs of shoes. Actually, three. You had your gym shoes around the house, you have your pair of shoes for Sunday school or when you went out, you know, church, and you had your 36 �school shoes, and you had a uniform for school, and, on Sundays, everybody went to church together. And you did not misbehave because you got pinched, and [00:57:00] you had to stay awake. So, like I said, my mom didn’t go anywhere, but my dad, on Sundays -- he always wore a suit to church. Every Sunday, he was always dressed up, and, during the summer, my mom would help him make sandwiches, and -- loaves of bread, and either ham or -- and cheese and whatever. The sandwiches were -- and they would be cut in half, and they would be wrapped, and he’d take this huge, big cooler, and he’d go to Lincoln Park and give it to the baseball players. Okay? I never could figure that out. JJ: In Lincoln Park, where they played? CT: In Lincoln Park. My dad was very, very generous. That was his team from the Concilio Numero Tres, and he’d bring ’em these big things of Kool-Aid, and we never lacked for anything in our house ’cause my dad was a hard worker,[00:58:00] but I could never understand until I was older. I would say, “Man, he’s making all these sandwiches and everything and taking --” It was a matter of being a little jealous, I guess. You know, my dad was so generous to everybody. Okay? Somebody needed 10 dollars, take the 10 dollars and give it to ’em. Well, it’s like, okay, you got 11 kids. What’s the thing? Eventually, I understood what it was. He was very, very religious, very caring, very generous, and he truly cared about everything in the community, about his Caballeros de San Juan, concilio. He was president. This was his whole life. Then, the big 37 �thing in the community came back as I was talking. Okay? Was la bolita. Okay? La [00:59:00] bolita is the Chinese numbers game. I don’t know how you call it -JJ: Los chinos, los chinos. CT: The Chinese. JJ: Yeah, that’s what you call ’em, los chinos. (inaudible) CT: Yeah, la bolita. They’re the ones that roll a number or you play a number. So, my dad would go to the bolitero. He loved to do that. Okay? And he would play a number, and he never won when he -- JJ: And this is like an underground lottery. CT: Yeah, it’s a lottery. It’s the rackets. It’s like you see on TV. They’re going to the numbers people. JJ: The numbers. The numbers, yeah. CT: Okay? Anyway, my dad used to play that. Who the bolitero was -- JJ: And it was all over the community at that time. CT: All over, and everybody played. JJ: Everybody played. Everybody played. CT: I mean, from the time that you were -- JJ: It was announced on the radio too, I heard. CT: The numbers came out on the radio. Of course. You knew. I don’t know how they did it, but, anyway. So, my dad would play this, like, religiously. Okay? [01:00:00] He never won money when he had money. Okay? Never, never won when he had money. When we were most desperate, like at Christmastime, Easter, Mother’s Day, my dad always won, and he won big. I couldn’t believe it. 38 �Then, I knew what my dad was doing. My dad was giving back what he had received, and that’s what he taught us. You help other people. You volunteer. We’ve all done volunteer work. My brother Louie, he does volunteer work every year from his church. He goes to Mexico, to the Habilitad for Humanity. JJ: Habitat for Humanity. CT: Yeah, Habitat. And -- JJ: That’s your brother. CT: My brother. And he pays for his own plane ticket, for (break in audio) everything there, and he takes a week’s vacation, and he goes, and he does that. He’s done [01:01:00] it with his wife, and, lately, he’s been doing it by himself. Okay? But he learned that. All of us have done volunteer work. So, eventually, I knew, you know, but, again, it came from the community. You help the people in the community. It was very hard for us to leave that house. Okay? It was very hard for us to leave our roots because this is where everybody had grown up. Everybody had gone to school there. So, we continued. The three oldest did graduate from St. Michael’s, but then we moved to the South Side. JJ: So, this was your roots. I mean -- CT: To me, even though I only lived there, like I said, from the time I was 13 to 16, three years -- but those were the three years of my life that I remember as being the greatest. We walked to North Avenue Beach. [01:02:00] You didn’t have to worry about anybody mugging you, or robbing you, or anything. My stepmother’s mother, my grandmother, she babysat everybody. She used to take the buggies, and the old -- I was the oldest, and my cousin Jeanie. And then, everybody 39 �would help everybody, and we’d be the guards. “Come on. Let’s go. Let’s go.” And we’d carry these sacks of sandwiches and everything, and there was this lady who didn’t know how to speak much English or anything, but she risked going to the beach. Okay? JJ: And there were more Puerto Ricans? CT: There were more Puerto Ricans there, and you met everybody you knew there ’cause everybody was babysitting. (phone rings) [Ricci called Junior?]. Anyway, so -- RT: That’s your phone. CT: I know. He’s calling here, and he’s going to keep calling, so -- RT: What does he want? CT: I don’t know. [01:03:00] Anyway, so, we’d go down to the beach. Okay. We’d go to the zoo. The zoo was free. JJ: The Lincoln Park Zoo. CT: Okay? They had the little canoes in the -- you know? You were never afraid to do any of that. Okay? So, anyway, getting back to the women, like I started, there was two organizations in the church that women belonged to: Las Damas de María y Las Hijas de María, the -- I want to call the -- the Madam, you know, the older women. Once you were married, you were considered old already, so you belonged to that group. Okay? Las Esperanzas wore this green sash with a medal. JJ: That was the ones in training, or --? 40 �CT: Those were supposed to be the young girls, unmarried girls. [01:04:00] You were representing -- you dressed in white, and you had this green metal. JJ: The virginity -- CT: Virginity. Okay? JJ: The virgin -- CT: Because that was a big thing in the community. JJ: What do you mean? CT: If you got pregnant or if you had sex at that time, it was like, “Get out of the house. We don’t want to have nothing to do with you.” JJ: (inaudible). CT: (inaudible), the -- everything. So, you had to watch whatever you did. My sister and I walked a strict line. Okay? Because everybody knew my dad. Everybody. And so, if you went anywhere, they saw you, he’d know, and the only thing in this world you didn’t want to do was embarrass your dad. JJ: Your family and your dad. CT: Okay? I mean, culturally, that was the thing. So, you wore this medal, and it was such an honor because this was the Sunday. They had it on Sundays. Every Sunday was a different group. So, all the girls would -- you’d try to outdo everybody [01:05:00] with your skirt, and your blouse, and your hairdo, and then you had to put your hair up so they could see that you had your medal, and you’d walk down. It was a procession. And then, at that time, when you went to church and Mass, you had to have something to cover your head. All right? So, 41 �it was on Sundays that it was your turn. You didn’t wear that little thing. You wore your mantilla, the nicer ones you had. JJ: Mantilla? CT: Yeah, and you wanted -- JJ: A lot of girls wore the mantillas? CT: Yeah, we had the mantillas ’cause, at the time, you had to cover your head, you know? They weren’t those big, long, elegant ones, but you had one. So, that was for the young girls. The older women, I think they had blue. I can’t recall, but they also had a medal, and they dressed, and they had their groups. Eventually, they had a cursillo for the ladies. Okay? The moms went. And so, you know, we were progressing in [01:06:00] the church too. There was no birth control to use. Very few people used birth control. Okay? The church taught you rhythm. Go to the rhythm, and that didn’t work in our house because there was a lot of us. Okay? The Hispanic families were very large. Six kids, five kids. We were ten. And, again, culturally, you didn’t use birth control. All right? That’s a lot of mouths to feed. So, the females had to -- how do you say? Adjust to cooking for all those kids on whatever there was. So, I remember, in my house, we ate rice. We ate beans. We had salad, green beans, corn, and your main meats were chicken, pork [01:07:00] chops, and bistec. Okay? And, when you ate, you had one piece of meat, a lot of rice and beans to stuff you, and your salad, and the big joke was, you know -- not in my family, but in another family was you hurried up and you ate your meat in case somebody came because the 42 �parents would give your -- they’d give you something else, but they’d give your food to the adults that came. JJ: Right. Right. To the visitor. CT: To the visitors. They always had room in their homes for anybody who came to spend the night. It didn’t matter if all the kids slept in one bed, but your company had room. Not too many women were -- how do you say? Took the risks that my stepmother and my grandmother did. I admire them very, very much. My mom learned to speak English. All right? [01:08:00] But there was one rule in our house. You didn’t speak English. You had to speak Spanish. I guess, as time went on, ’cause she had so many kids, you know, the rule -- how do you say? Was -- JJ: Changed a little. CT: -- changed, okay? JJ: Adjusted? CT: The younger ones spoke English. Okay? But she never spoke English to us in the house. Never. She always spoke Spanish so you understand. We all understand it. The younger ones -- JJ: That’s pride in our culture? CT: No. That was -- why are you gonna speak English? Her feeling was, “I got to speak Spanish so my kids can understand.” Okay? So, that was one other thing. My grandmother -- she was a funny lady. She was very bright, very loving, and she loved school, and she could talk up a storm. She’d talk to you about everything. There was [01:09:00] nothing -- you know, you could talk to 43 �her about sex. And I’m not talking about -- just about, “Grandma, what is this?” And she would tell you very calmly, explain it to you. So, she went to Tuley High School. Where was Tuley? JJ: On Ashland, around there. CT: That’s where she went. She went to learn English, and somebody would take her every night and pick her up. JJ: So, she would go from Sedgwick, or --? CT: No. She lived on Mohawk. JJ: On Mohawk at that time. Okay. CT: Yeah. That would take her to school. Maybe it wasn’t -- what was the school closest on Mohawk? Anyway, she went to a Chicago public school where they taught English classes, and she had her little book. She was going to school, and I really admired her for that. She’d come back, [01:10:00] and she’d practice everything that she learned that day with all the grandkids, and we used to laugh. “She’s trying to learn,” you know, ’cause she spoke funny, but she learned. And then, after my grandfather died, she needed a certain amount of quarters from social security in order to get social security. She got a job working in this linen company on Halsted Street on the South Side, and she would take a bus all the way from the North Side to go to the South Side to work there and then go all the way back north on this bus, and, you know, somebody who’s that old and so set culturally in being Hispanic and -- to do that, you have to admire her. How many women would do that? So, okay. So, the church. The females eventually [01:11:00] began to do things. They eventually had their own meetings at the 44 �Cardinals’ Committee. So, in 1966, they decided to have a Puerto Rican Parade. That was the very first Puerto Rican Parade there was. My dad was the president of the Puerto Rican Parade Committee, the ones that did it. JJ: So, this came out of St. Michael’s, then. CT: No. Remember, I keep telling you that. The Cardinals’ Committee -- JJ: It came out of the Cardinals’ Committee. CT: Committee, which are all the churches. Okay? So, they decided they were going to have a parade. All right? And my dad became the president. JJ: But he was from St. -- CT: He was voted from -- JJ: But he was from St. Michael’s. CT: He was from St. Michael’s. There were people from all over. All right? And so, the [01:12:00] Cardinals’ Committee, the group that sponsored the parade, had a float. Okay? And it was going to be a religious float. So, we, the Rivera family, got to be on this float, representing the family. Okay? A religious family. Okay? Indirectly, they were trying to say something else, I believe, because 10 kids, you know. No birth control at the time. This is what a good family’s supposed to be. My mom’s buggies were there with the kids. Somewhere, we have a picture of that, but that was the year that there were riots. Okay? And that was the same night that I came to Puerto Rico. JJ: The Division Street riot was (inaudible). CT: The very same night. My dad took me to the airport ’cause I was coming to Puerto Rico, [01:13:00] and my dad actually went to Daley’s house when the riots 45 �occurred, and my dad talked to him and to other people that worked with the Cardinals’ Committee’s, my uncles and dad, to try to defuse what was going on. What it was, I don’t know because, like I said, I wasn’t here. I’ve seen it on TV, and people have told me what happened, but I was never near Humboldt Park where this happened. But, getting back to my dad and the community, my dad met the governor of Puerto Rico, Luis Muñoz Marín (inaudible). He knew Daley. He knew all these people in politics, and, for a person with no education, who was a tomato picker, to be so well known, okay? Was [01:14:00] amazing. Very, very amazing. He also worked for -- when we moved to the South Side, there was a problem in that community, and the problem were the gangs. JJ: So, now, we’re talking about Visitation Church. CT: Right, but we’re not gonna talk too much about that, but I’m talking about my dad. When he moved there, they gave him a job working for the Department of Human Resources. Okay? And what his job -- JJ: Was this after the riot or --? CT: Yes because he already -- we moved to the South Side. Okay? This was when he worked with the neighborhood gangs. Okay? JJ: (inaudible). CT: So, my dad -- what I’m trying to say is, from a tomato picker, he went to holding all these positions, putting together all of these activities and things, having a job through the city. [01:15:00] Not educated, you know, and being able to -- how do you say? Mingle with people like the governor and the mayor of San Juan, and it was very amazing. Very, very amazing. Okay. So, when we moved to the 46 �South Side, okay? Caballeros de San Juan no longer existed. Okay? My dad then joined another organization, “Puertorriqueños Unidos de Chicago,” and that was an amazing one too, but let’s get back to the Lincoln Park one. JJ: But we can talk about both too (inaudible). CT: So, the Caballeros de San Juan. The last thing that they did was they had banquets, and that was to generate funds, okay? Because, if somebody had a fire, or a death, or something, [01:16:00] they gave money to these -- they helped their community. So, you bought a ticket, okay? And this was the first time Puerto Ricans were going to fancy places. So, they got to go to the hotels downtown. They got to go to different -- they got out of their neighborhood. All right? And so, that also was really amazing, that they could do that, that they could go somewhere and say, “Hey, we want to rent your hall,” and that they could sit down and estimate -- “We need to sell so many tickets, and we need to make money for the band, and we need money for the --” You know, to me, that was very amazing, and that they could do so many of these. Okay? I know that, for the first Puerto Rican parade, they had a banquet, and they sold tickets, and they were expensive, and they made money. All right. So, we -- JJ: Was anyone else connected, like [01:17:00] the Puerto Rican Congress or anybody else? CT: Puerto Rican Congress -- that was later. JJ: That was later. CT: That’s now. There’s a Puerto Rican Congress now. All right? JJ: But, at that time, it was mainly the Caballeros. 47 �CT: It was Caballeros de San Juan. JJ: The Caballeros de San Juan. CT: There was no Puerto Rican Congress. JJ: So, the first parade was Caballeros de San Juan. CT: Caballeros de San Juan all the way. The Puerto Rican Congress can claim to have been a part of that, and I really can’t say it wasn’t, but I do know who was on the committees and who did the work. I believe that the Puerto Rican Congress came -- JJ: Who was it? CT: Well, it was my dad, my uncles, Calvino. I think Felix Rodríguez. There was a Cuban guy who was -- I mean, the names -- JJ: They were all -- CT: All affiliated -- JJ: -- affiliated. CT: -- with Caballeros de San Juan. Okay? JJ: Because, actually, the date of it was [01:18:00] near San Juan Bautista, right? CT: Always. Always. Okay? It was always in June. JJ: Always in June. CT: Okay? And it’s always been in June, and it’s usually either the Sunday before Father’s Day -- sometimes, it’s fallen on Father’s Day. All right? It’s always in June. All right, so, when we left the North Side, then we moved to the South Side, again, we didn’t have a Spanish Mass. JJ: There was a group that moved at the same time? 48 �CT: Yes. It was Ernito Gómez, Rick’s dad, Don Jesus, my dad. Oh, my gosh. I’m blank right now. Okay? JJ: Okay, but it was like a group of organizers. CT: Yeah. And they moved there, and Visitation Church did not have a Mass for Spanish people. Okay? So, we went from one German church to [01:19:00] an Irish church. Everybody in that neighborhood was white, Irish. Very few Polish. Okay? No Blacks. Okay? ’Cause it was divided again. 63rd Street divided the Black community. 63rd on up and towards the East End was Irish, and Monsignor Wolfe ran the church. All right. So, he really did not want us there. Okay? He did not want us there. And so -- JJ: So you were in the hall there too, or --? CT: No, there was no hall. There was no nothing. Okay? It was a church. Actually, there was two churches. One downstairs and one upstairs. Okay? So, he used to walk on [01:20:00] Sundays. Okay? He’d get in, and he’d walk, during the Mass, talking to people, shaking their hands, but never to the Hispanics. Okay? Which was very funny. I mean, you know. And that showed his prejudice. How we came about it, I don’t know, but there was suddenly a community again, pulled together. We had different priests and whatnot, and the Monsignor eventually died, but we had a Mass downstairs. There was a chapel down there, so that was our Mass. Again, they bought a building in that area, people who connected together with my dad. They bought a building, and it was called -- oh, my gosh. What was that building called? Rick. RT: Which one? 49 �CT: The one [01:21:00] on 55th that they bought, where you played that one time. Oh, my gosh. RT: (inaudible) Puertorriqueña. CT: Oh, okay. La Unión Puertorriqueña. All right? And it had a hall upstairs, and it had a bar, and they used it for weddings. They used it for dances. Ricci played there one time. Okay? JJ: What band? What band was that? CT: He had a group. JJ: Los Riccis. CT: Los Riccis, yeah. RT: No. CT: He had a group. RT: It was The Sunsets. CT: The Sunsets. All right, so, anyway, that was one thing that they did. Eventually, as the years went by, most of the Puerto Ricans started moving further west. Okay? But there was still one group left. JJ: But this group, la Unión Puertorriqueña, what did they do? What kind of activities? CT: Dances, weddings. [01:22:00] They bought this building. It’s not that -- it was called the Puerto Rican -- RT: It’s a fundraiser. JJ: Oh, it’s a fundraiser. 50 �CT: Yeah. They called it the Puerto Rican Union because it was like a big union hall. All right? Then, the main, main thing there was -- well, there was Puerto Ricans all over the place. Eugenio Gómez, okay, was the real estate guy, and he had a store, and he used to sell furniture and whatnot from that store to all the Puerto Ricans. Okay? And he used to sell houses. So, he moved -- he was the one that gathered all these Puerto Ricans into that community. He used to work for Cahill Brothers Realtor. Cahill Brothers Realtor was on Ashland. And then, slowly, the Puerto Ricans move a little bit west of Ashland. Then, they move west of Damen. Then west of Western, and that (break in audio) in the suburbs. It was -- JJ: Is this --? CT: -- a Puerto Rican flight. JJ: [01:23:00] A Puerto Rican flight? CT: That’s exactly what it was on the South Side. JJ: So, why? Why do you call it the Puerto Rican flight? CT: ’Cause that’s how the Puerto Ricans -- I’m not talking about -- when the Puerto Ricans moved to 55th Street, and that’s what it’s called, that whole community, all the Irish picked up and left. JJ: Oh, okay. So, it was an Irish flight. CT: The first flight. After the Irish left, it was a Puerto Rican flight. JJ: Okay. Oh, they followed that. CT: Yeah. JJ: You just took over their neighborhood. 51 �CT: Exactly. So, this is what happened. The Puerto Rican Union no longer existed. They had to get rid of the building because there was not enough Puerto Ricans living in the area to continue with that. So, there was nothing for them. Okay? So, they decided, let’s do another group. We got to do something. Okay? So, they formed this group called Puertorriqueños Unidos de Chicago. [01:24:00] All right? What was their goal? Their goal was to fund scholarship for students. That was it. That was their goal. Whatever activities they did, okay? Funded. The building was owned by Eugenio Gómez, but we had to pay rent, and we had this whole, big, huge office on the South Side because, remember, St. Mike’s moved south. Some of them. JJ: You’re saying a lot of the people -- CT: Mm-hmm. JJ: -- from St. Mike’s moved south. CT: Moved to the South Side. So -- JJ: Because their neighborhood was changing at that time? CT: Yeah. So, anyway. So, here, you have this group of Puerto Ricans, and they had a president. My dad was president. My sister was always the secretary. Okay? And, eventually, [01:25:00] I don’t know how I got on it, and I was a board member, and, at the time, I was working at Curie High School. So, I had kids apply for these scholarships. Okay? And I got Wilfredo Ortiz to be on the board with me, who was -- he worked for the board. He was -- JJ: Board of education? 52 �CT: Mm-hmm. He was a principal at a couple of schools, and, eventually, he became the principal at Curie High School, and then he went on to have the job that Arne Duncan had. What is it? Director of high school development. That was his job. But, anyway. We used to have garage sales. My dad ran the garage sales. Okay? He was out there, selling everything, and everybody was cleaning house and whatnot, [01:26:00] and we did really good. The first year, we gave scholarships -- I think it was to like six kids. All right? And we were dumb because what we did was, without thinking -- “You have a scholarship. Tell us what school you’re going to, and we’ll send the money to the school.” Okay? Then, I said, “Wait a minute.” It just didn’t dawn on me because I had come in new. I didn’t know what they had done. So, the second year, I said, “You know what? That doesn’t work. We’re giving these kids scholarships, and we’re giving it to the university, and then they take away money from them ’cause, if they’re getting 1,200 dollars, they deduct the 250 that we send, and the kid’s not gonna get any more financial aid.” So, we’re helping the schools, not the students. I told them what we should do -- and then we had to vote on this -- is let the kids go to [01:27:00] school. The first semester, they bring back their grades. Okay? We don’t care if they have C’s or D’s ’cause that’s not what the scholarship was for. We just want to know that they’re in school at that they’re gonna continue the second semester, and we give ’em a check. That way, they can buy whatever they want that they need in school, for books, for clothes, if they’re hungry. What do we care? Okay? The kid’s in school. So, that’s how we did it. So, depending on how much money we got and how many kids applied, okay? 53 �First year was 250. The second year, we upped it to 500. I never worked on selecting students. Okay? Because -- even my daughter applied. Anybody could apply, but it was based on what that committee decided. No questions asked. Doors closed. They decided on [01:28:00] the kids’ resumes, on the application. They had to write an essay, “Why Should I Be Given The Scholarship?” And what have you done for the Hispanic community? That was the main thing. Don’t come and apply for a scholarship from the Puerto Ricans if you haven’t done anything, you know? So, it was based on that. Okay? And we didn’t care what school. It could have been a university. It could have been a tech school. Could have been beauty school. We didn’t care what they wanted the scholarship for, but they just had to do the first semester, and then they get the money. Wasn’t like we were giving out thousands of dollars. So, that worked for a long time. And then, eventually, like I said, the exodus took away more people, and it was just too hard to go to the suburbs, and call this one, and call that [01:29:00] one, and -- you know. JJ: The exodus -- now, the Puerto Ricans are going to the suburbs? Is that what you’re saying? CT: The Puerto Ricans have left 55th Street. There are like five families, Puerto Rican families there. The majority are Blacks. Okay? African Americans, and you have a few Mexicans, but they’re dispersed. 35th Street cuts the area up ’cause up to 35th Street is where Daley used to live, so that area is still -Canaryville is still white, Irish. JJ: It’s never changed, that area. 54 �CT: That area has never changed, and then the Chinatown area expanded, so they meet together. All right? But 35th Street cuts off the area. And, of course, Puerto [01:30:00] Ricans left. You know, the Irish took off, and then, as the African American community came -- ’cause we have to speak reality. This is the reality. Okay? They moved west because they were also scared. Okay? This had nothing to do with economics. Okay? It was really racial. JJ: It was racial. CT: So, they took off, and they kept going west, west, further south, Oaklawn. Pretty soon, everybody’s out in -- JJ: And they also -- other neighborhoods. CT: They moved to other neighborhoods. One of the neighborhoods was -- JJ: Other neighborhoods were moving the suburbs too, right? CT: When we -- JJ: Like, the other Puerto Ricans from Lincoln Park were moving to the suburbs too. CT: Exactly. It was city-wide. JJ: So they kind of (inaudible). CT: It was city-wide. The North Side people moved to the suburbs in the north. The Humboldt Park people moved west. Okay? The [01:31:00] South Side moved west and southwest. All right? JJ: So -- CT: It kept moving. Like, right now -- JJ: Oh, people kept moving away from the lake. 55 �CT: Yeah. There is -- okay. The South Side never had a lake. Okay. Now, the Puerto Ricans have moved out. Now, you have Mexicans living where the Puerto Rican lived, okay? And, now, the cut-off line in California. Okay? ’Cause we lived on 63rd and Washtenaw, and we moved, like the rest of everybody -- we also took off to the suburbs. Okay? Everybody had moved on. Okay? JJ: So, why did you move? Was it racial, or --? CT: We moved -- actually, that was one of the things, and it wasn’t just racial because of African Americans. It was also Hispanic, but what we moved for was because, now, they’re standing in the [01:32:00] corner gangs. Okay? And -- JJ: So, it was gangs. CT: Gangs. And then, we had two girls, and my daughter was going to school in Lemont, at Mount Assisi. I was paying for that bus to come pick her up, drop her off, and then I was paying extra for the bus for sports, so we said, “We’re paying all this money. Might as well just move.” JJ: Okay, so it was gangs. It was racial. It was -- CT: It was the school. JJ: The neighborhood was changing. CT: The neighborhood had changed, and the neighborhood suddenly -- it was bad. JJ: It got down. As it was changing, it got down. CT: Not that it got down. JJ: (inaudible) depressed. CT: You actually had drug dealers on the corners. You had gangbangers. JJ: But that’s what I mean, got depressed. 56 �CT: And then, the Mexican gangs would fight with the African American gangs, and it was just -- you know, we moved. We moved for a lot of reasons. JJ: It was not what it was when you first got there. CT: No. No. When we first got to that area, [01:33:00] Ricci and I, it was all Irish. It was Marquette Park. All right. My dad never moved from 55th and Peoria. The house is still there. My mom is living there now as a widow, and she lives there with three of my brothers. One never left home. Two came back after their divorce. And, basically, they’re there, but there is nothing there anymore for Puerto Ricans, just like, after we moved, there was not too much activity at St. Mike’s. JJ: Okay. And then, so, after that, you made a move back to Puerto Rico. How does it go? How does that go? CT: Myself? No, I got -- JJ: You moved back to -- CT: Okay. After we moved to 63rd -- I mean to 55th and Peoria, I went to college. [01:34:00] Okay? I went in Evanston to Kendall College for two years, and I lived there. JJ: Kendall? CT: Kendall. JJ: Okay. Was that an art --? CT: It was a junior college. JJ: Was it an art school or no? 57 �CT: No. This was just a two-year junior college, and I got a scholarship there. I didn’t have to pay anything. Then, I went to Loyola University ’cause I graduated from junior college, and I used to commute. JJ: So, you had your bachelor’s (inaudible). CT: I got my bachelor’s in science and in education. JJ: In Loyola, and then you -- CT: At Loyola. JJ: Where did you get your master’s? CT: I got two master’s. I have two master’s, one in counseling and one in supervision and administration at Chicago State. JJ: Chicago State, okay. CT: And I got my first master’s -- I started it 20 years after I had been a teacher, after I had [01:35:00] graduated, and I went to a program. Again, I went to a program for bilingual teachers. Okay? That’s how it started, but not enough applied. Okay? So, it was open to everybody, but it originally was conceived to be a program for bilingual teachers, and there was a huge, big group. Okay? And we all graduated, and we all made it as counselors, and we all worked as counselors, and some moved up to be teachers. And then, Ricci and I, we moved to Lemont. First, we lived on 27th and Keeler. From there, we moved to St. [01:36:00] Rita’s. We left St. Rita’s Parish, and I was really involved in there. I was on the school board. JJ: At St. Rita’s? CT: Mm-hmm. I used to do the cheerleading for the grammar school girls. 58 �JJ: Did you do the training (inaudible)? CT: Everything. I had somebody help me, Olga. She was in high school. She had been a cheerleader, and she taught the girls the cheers and everything. I supervised them. I made sure they had drinks. I made sure they had snacks. The same thing my dad did. Then, I started doing it with my kids. Okay? I used to read in the church. My son was an altar boy. JJ: Okay, so you read in the Mass. CT: Mm-hmm. Everything my dad did, I try to do. Okay? We moved from there, and then that’s when I didn’t get involved in anything but the United Puerto Ricans when I lived in Lemont. And [01:37:00] then, when I -- JJ: So, you had the United Puerto Ricans there too, or (inaudible)? CT: No. Lemont was all white. JJ: You were traveling. CT: We used to come to the city -- JJ: To the Visitation, to the United Puerto Ricans. That area. CT: Yeah, but that was for meetings and whatnot, to Marquette Park. JJ: Right, Marquette Park. CT: All right. So, then, what I did do, though, was I got this job, an extra job, okay? From the Chicago Public Schools, okay? I became a service learning coach, and that’s when you do work, volunteer work. Students have to have 40 hours of volunteer work, so I had all these Hispanic students. Now, I’m working with the students. And so, we went back to Humboldt Park. We went to Casa Central. [01:38:00] Okay? And I had these students visit with the people there, and it was 59 �just wonderful. The kids all wanted to come back, so I kept sending kids to do volunteer work there. But, lo and behold, why do I know a whole bunch of people there that used to live in our community? JJ: In Lincoln Park. CT: They were all at Casa Central. Okay? JJ: So, they were residents of Casa Central. CT: Yes. JJ: They lived in Lincoln Park. CT: They had lived there. Okay? I mean, they no longer lived there, okay? We did that, and we did a whole bunch of work with a lot of the Hispanic community. So, like I started to say, from my dad working with the community, that went down to myself, and my daughter did a lot of work. She [01:39:00] joined a Hispanic sorority. She joined the Sigma Lambda Gammas. JJ: This is -- CT: The Gammas. Mary Lou. JJ: Okay. Is that your only daughter, or --? CT: No. I had two daughters. One passed away in a motorcycle accident three years ago. She was 25. JJ: What was her name? CT: Her name was Cristina. JJ: Cristina. CT: Cristina used to pick up strays everywhere and bring ’em to me to fix. When I mean that, I mean, you know, she was at the same school I was in, and girls who 60 �had problems, or found out they were pregnant, or whatever the problem was, I don’t know how, but she collected them all up, and I had all this work ’cause everyone would be -- they had other counselors, but they would come to me because of Cristina. So, Cristina was a lot like my dad. She would help everybody, even if she didn’t know them. “Oh, you need some help? Oh, okay. Come on.” A lot of times, she’d bring these kids who had run away from [01:40:00] home to sleep in my house. I go, “No. It doesn’t work that way. Who are their parents? Give me the phone.” So, it was really -- they learned. I think everybody in our family, from my dad, learned to be generous, to help others, to do some volunteer work, to give, so we’ve all done that, and my dad’s shoes, like the song goes, are very hard to fit. He was a great, great person. Wonderful. So much so that, when he passed away, he has been the only layperson -- and by lay, nonreligious -- that had a wake inside the church because we couldn’t accommodate the people that came to my dad’s wake. Okay? The coffin was put [01:41:00] in the middle, up by the altar. That whole church was filled. My brothers worked for CTA. There was a CTA bus with all CTA people, dressed in their uniform, conductors, bus drivers, whatever, that came to pay their respects because I have two, three, four brothers that work for CTA, and my niece and my nephew. Okay? So, how do you say? It was just -- the only layperson to have used that church. Okay? We’re very fortunate that everybody in the family, whether they went to college or not, and extended family members of my in-laws all have -- somehow, they all managed to get [01:42:00] city jobs, you know, as policemen, as CTA. 61 �JJ: These are your brothers or --? CT: My brothers, my -- JJ: So, you have some brothers that are policemen, or --? CT: No. I’m saying in my in-laws’ family. Okay? I have cousins who are policemen. Like I said, one of my cousins is a judge. Others work for the gas company. I’m not saying they have great jobs, but everyone has a profession. Okay? In my family. JJ: Now, does this have to do with your dad’s organizing? CT: With my dad. There was no such thing as “I’m not going to school.” You had to go to school. Okay? And we lived up north, in St. Michael’s. We were the only Hispanic family that had a set of encyclopedia. Everybody came to copy something for homework from our set [01:43:00] of encyclopedias. When we moved south, my mom bought another -- ’cause that one was outdated, and it wasn’t enough information. We got another set of encyclopedias, and these were the big kind, not the little, skinny kinds. You know, they go through different stages. She also got a set of books that were body -- medical. Okay? Huge, big Bible ’cause you had to have a Bible, and you had to do homework. You came from school. First thing you did when you walked through the door -- “Hi, Mom, blah, blah, blah.” Go down, and change your uniform, and put on your play clothes ’cause we were 11. We didn’t have the money to be buying -- you know, and you had to make sure you didn’t dirty that shirt because you only had one more shirt. Two shirts in a week. Okay? ’Cause you would wear it two days, put on the other one, [01:44:00] and then the other one would be washed. And you 62 �had to sit down and do your homework. You had to graduate from school. Okay? My dad never went to high school. My mother did. My stepmom graduated in Jayuya. JJ: In Jayuya? CT: There’s a big thing in our family. JJ: She graduated in Jayuya? CT: Yeah, and she still has her class ring. JJ: I didn’t know she was from Jayuya. CT: Yes, she is from Jayuya. And she has -- JJ: ’Cause I thought she was from Isabela. CT: No, that was my real mom. My stepmother’s from Jayuya. Luz María’s from Jayuya. She has her class ring, and, nowadays, there’s a thing that the ring companies do. They come to the high school, and they say, “Whoever can bring the oldest class ring gets a free ring.” All right? So, my mom’s class ring has traveled (inaudible) Arizona, to [01:45:00] Chicago, back and forth ’cause everybody wants a free ring ’cause now they’re, like, 500, 600 dollars for a ring, so -- JJ: (inaudible). CT: So, everybody’s borrowed her ring. Okay? And, you know, it’s funny because we go to her house, and, whatever we want -- ’cause my dad’s passed. She’s 82. If you want something, you have to put your name on it because, at the time, whoever comes -- like I said, there’s 11 of us. And my family has dispersed also. 63 �From Chicago, they’ve moved on to Arizona. I have two brothers in Arizona, three sisters, and their children live there. JJ: What kind of work do they do? CT: My sister-in-law works for Allstate. JJ: Allstate, okay. CT: And my brother works for the [01:46:00] energy company in Arizona. One sister works for a health company, Magellan, and my other sister works for a bank, and -- JJ: You mentioned Mary Lou. We didn’t mention her name. CT: Oh. My daughter, Mary Lou? Okay. Cristina passed away. My daughter Mary Lou is a nurse in Joliet at St. Joe’s Provena. She went to Illinois State and graduated in criminal justice, and she was working for a nonprofit organization, Cornerstone, ’cause Cristina and Mary Lou both worked for cornerstone, and, somehow, she was working with disabled people and giving them -- making sure they took their medicine and everything, and she said, “Why should I do this? I have a college degree. I could be a nurse.” And she went back and became a nurse. [01:47:00] So, she’s a registered nurse, and she’s got a very good job, and she was just here. She just left. I have a granddaughter who’s gorgeous. Just gorgeous. And my son and my granddaughter came in January, and they stayed here for 10 days, and it was just nice playing Grandma. I had a grandson, and he passed away in Chicago. He was five years old, my son’s oldest son. And, basically, that’s it. And one of the things too is -- like, when I came here, I joined an organization here for the -- we have, like, a center. Unfortunately, I got 64 �sick, and I couldn’t continue to work, but I did do a lot of work with them the first year that [01:48:00] we got in this organization, and -- very different. Things here are different from over there, but you have to continue, and -JJ: How different? What do you mean? What way? CT: All right. If you’re used to Robert’s Rules -- JJ: Rules of Order. CT: Okay? And you come here, they don’t follow them. It’s whatever anybody says. You have to have been born and raised here to understand some of the cultural things. Even though you’re Puerto Rican, they’re different here. Everything’s different here. When I first came here, I didn’t even know what a (Spanish) [01:48:44] was. I thought that was a credit card, and it was just an ATM. The words, the language, the customs. Everything is different here, but you [01:49:00] just have to get used to it and adapt to it, and you have to remember, you know, you were raised to be a Puerto Rican, and that’s one thing that everybody in our family has instilled. My dad instilled it in us. No matter where you go, you say you’re Puerto Rican, and you hold your head up. Okay? I told my kids the same thing. “When they ask you what you are, say, ’I’m Puerto Rican.’” JJ: So, he’s working with the church, but he’s also working for Puerto Ricans. CT: Okay. You have to understand, being Puerto Rican and being Catholic were one thing. Okay? It was never anything different for those of us who were Catholic. First, you were Catholic. Then you were Puerto Rican. But, when you got to Chicago and you were in the community that had all these organizations, you 65 �[01:50:00] couldn’t separate anything. You could separate it if you lived and you had nothing to do with the community, and many Puerto Ricans didn’t want to have anything to do. Many Puerto Ricans wanted to be -- how do you say? “Don’t recognize me. Therefore, I won’t have any problems.” Okay? “I’m not going to stand up and say I’m Puerto Rican because --” JJ: That’d give you problems. CT: Right. And that was the other thing too. As you left -- and, again, I’m not saying that I experienced prejudice because I was Puerto Rican, but, yes, I felt some differences. In other words, when I got my scholarship -- “Oh, you got a scholarship ’cause you’re Puerto Rican.” No. I didn’t get a scholarship because I was Puerto Rican. I got a scholarship ’cause I had brains. I had the same GPA you did, and it had nothing to do with being Puerto Rican, but you had more [01:51:00] advantages than I did, but I still got the same GPA as you did. I had to work harder for it. All right? I didn’t graduate from Loyola, and I wasn’t just given a degree. When I went and I got my job, everybody -- my first job teaching, I worked at Mozart School. It’s on Armitage, between Armitage and -- I don’t know. Armitage is the big street -- or Fullerton. No, Armitage and Fullerton. Okay? So, I got my first job there because they needed a bilingual teacher -there was a bilingual program -- and I went for my interview, and the person who interviewed me was going to be my principal, but he just happened to be working that summer, hiring. And so, the minute I mentioned I was Puerto Rican and [01:52:00] everything, he says, “You know, I taught in Puerto Rico.” I go, “What do you mean, you taught in Puerto Rico?” He says, “Yeah.” During the ’50s, he 66 �had come to Puerto Rico, and he had taught English. Okay? He spoke Spanish. So, he says, “Oh, how would you like to work for me at my school? I need a teacher for second grade.” I said, “Great.” So, I was hired, and a lot of people resented the fact that there were bilingual teachers in the system because they didn’t want the bilingual program. There was a big controversy, again, dealing with the communities. Okay? Some people used to say that, “Oh, you take all these Puerto Rican and Mexican students, and you put ’em in the classroom, and you teach ’em Spanish, and then they don’t learn English as quickly, [01:53:00] so they’re behind.” So, there were people who were against the program, and there were people who were for the program. I was neither for or against. I had a totally different philosophy, and, ’til this day, I have it. I do not feel that children should be put in a group and be separated because they are Hispanic, and I’m just gonna teach them Spanish, and they can pick up the English as you go along, and I’m not gonna put them in an all-English classroom. I believe that immersion is the best way to teach someone. You can have a teacher who’s bilingual to get them along, but you immerse them. You immerse the students who live over there into English and Spanish. You immerse the students who live here in English because [01:54:00] they’re gonna have to learn English. Okay? I don’t know if you know that a lot of our students who graduate from high school here go to the mainland for college. JJ: I didn’t know that. CT: Oh, yeah. I have two cousins who went to Purdue from here. One went to Yale from here, and one graduated from here, okay? College, and went to 67 �Georgetown University to become a dentist. She’s a -- what do you call it? One of those that puts -- an orthodontist. So, you need to learn English, but I feel that, in Chicago, when I first started and I got my job, people said, “Oh, you got your job because you’re Hispanic.” No. I didn’t get a job because of that. I got a job because I deserved it. I graduated from school because I worked. Okay? Not because they gave me something [01:55:00] because I was Hispanic, because, at that time was when -- what is it that they call -- I forget the name -where they wanted more -JJ: Yeah, I know what -- it’s quotas. CT: The quota. JJ: The quota system, yeah. CT: I didn’t get a job because of that, and I have to remind everybody, and I always said, “I’m Puerto Rican.” And then, if they ask you -- you’re white or you’re Black, you know, what does that have to do with anything? And the other thing is that we were labeled. When you went to school, are you Black, or are you white? My daughter felt a lot of -- both of them -- a lot of prejudice in Lemont. My youngest daughter was told, “Oh, you’re Black. Go back to Africa.” And she came home crying. I told her, [01:56:00] “Hold your head up high and say you’re Puerto Rican, and so what?” Well, she did, and she became a very good softball player, so she was on the private team in Lemont, and, when they traveled, she was also dark, you know. They’d go to the pool, and, two minutes later, they’re tanned, and, “Oh, you’re Black.” “No, I’m Puerto Rican.” So, yeah. There was a lot of discrimination, and the thing was, if you didn’t look for it and you looked to 68 �say, “I’m better,” you didn’t feel it. Very few times did I feel that I was being discriminated against in that area. In other areas, yes, but, in that Lincoln Park area, I never really felt discrimination, and I don’t know if it was because of our family [01:57:00] lifestyle, okay? And you have to look. I mean, to tell you the truth, we didn’t hang out. Okay? We were home every day, did our homework. We prayed the rosary. We never, ever -JJ: You prayed the rosary at nighttime. CT: Every night, we all had to pray the rosary. JJ: So, you did your homework, and then you prayed the rosary, or -- (inaudible)? CT: We did our homework. We had dinner. We took a shower, and, before bed, all 11 kids, on their knees with dad. JJ: He led the rosary? CT: Mm-hmm, and we prayed. We went to church every single day. Every single day, and, on Saturdays that you didn’t go to school ’cause you always started school with the Mass and then you went to the classroom, then, on Saturdays, go to church. You have to go to church. On Sundays, we went to church. JJ: And, in fact, they used to have a lot of (Spanish) [01:57:55] in the neighborhood, and they had (Spanish) [01:57:58] and all kind [01:58:00] of other activities. CT: During the Christmas season, they had parrandas. Everybody went. You gather at somebody’s house. It’s known as Christmas caroling in English, but it’s parranda to us in Spanish, and everybody -- the guys who had a guitar or a cuatro and the singer. And then, everybody went, and you went from house to house in the cold at two o’clock in the morning. You’d knock on their door, and 69 �you start playing, and, if you’re the homeowner -- everybody always got ready, and this was the thing. “(Spanish) [01:58:31].” You know? “They’re gonna bring me a parranda. So, you bought the cheese, the crackers. You always had a chicken in your freezer ’cause, if they came, you chopped it up, and you made the caldo, the big soup, and, oh, my God, that was fun. That was so much fun, but, yeah, you did that. People died, and you prayed in their home every single day for nine days. JJ: The novena. CT: The novenas. Okay? JJ: And you pray the rosary too, right? CT: You prayed the rosary [01:59:00] then, and you prayed it fast because, as soon as the rosary was over, you could have your beer, or you could drink, or you could have coffee, and you can gossip. Okay? That’s -- JJ: The tradition. CT: -- the tradition. Okay? Over there, you wake people in a funeral home. Here, to this day, you can wake people in your own house. Okay? And, again -- JJ: So, they bring the casket into the -- CT: The funeral home comes. Let’s assume that we were gonna wake somebody here. You take out your furniture from the living room. They make it look like a room in a -- JJ: Funeral. CT: -- funeral home, and you have the casket, and people come all day long, all night long. You have it for one day ’cause people here are buried right away. You 70 �don’t wait a week to bury somebody. Okay? They died today. You wake ’em tomorrow. You bury them the next [02:00:00] day, or you cremate them, whatever your choice is. But, yeah, and, in Chicago, you went to the people’s houses. You prayed the rosary, and, again, you see what -- we come back to what? We come back to the church. Okay? Midnight Mass. Every Puerto Rican went to midnight Mass, and then you came home, and you opened up gifts. Okay? But, before that, you had your party. You had your lechón, and you had -- I mean, as a kid, I remember my dad going to Indiana and having these lechones killed, these big pigs, and you would bring them home, and everybody - cook (phone rings) ’em, and everybody had a piece, you know? Rick, phone. So, in reality, everything, again, dealt around the church. You’re born. You’re baptized, [02:01:00] and you had to be baptized right away, and it was a big party. Anyway, so, what else? The weddings. Okay. You know how they say weddings and funerals are where you see everybody? The reality is true. In Chicago, it was a big wedding, and you didn’t have, at the beginning, weddings in halls, where you sat down and you had a banquet. It was just a big hall, and you had the rice and beans, and help yourself, and the music, whoever you knew come and play. Again, was a religious thing. Everything. JJ: And all this was going on in Lincoln Park. CT: Yeah. Well, that’s what I’m saying, that, over there, you know, at the sodality hall, you had a wedding, and people cooked. The same people in the neighborhood. JJ: Or baptisms or -- 71 �CT: A baptism too. And, again, totally different, [02:02:00] and anybody else’s wedding. We have the nine rosaries, and everybody drinks and parties. The Irish, they bury somebody, and then they have a drinking party. You know? We’re no different. Our customs are different, but, again, no different than anybody else, and Lincoln Park, as any other community in Chicago of Puerto Ricans, dealt with -- the main thing was the church. Everything from the church came out. The church is the center, and then you have your little branches, but that’s how it was. Eventually, that has changed. Okay? And I think, like any other community, you didn’t need the church as much now because, now, you learn how to do this. Now, you can do that. [02:03:00] Now, you moved away. In the suburbs, okay? There are no Puerto Rican churches, Irish churches. You know what I’m saying? Because it’s open land and there’s one subdivision here, another subdivision there. There are no churches that really hold -- there’s no Puerto Rican subdivision in the suburbs. Okay? So, everybody’s all mixed up. And so, that’s why very few -- you can go -- JJ: So, everybody’s mixed up. At that time, they were more segregated. CT: Segregated. Now, you go to North Avenue and Ashland. No longer Puerto Rican. Now, it’s Mexican. They have moved from Pilsen and 18th Street, and they have taken over -- JJ: (inaudible) -- oh, North and Ashland? CT: Yeah. JJ: All that is -- Wicker [02:04:00] Park has changed now. It’s more (inaudible). 72 �CT: There are no Puerto Ricans in Wicker Park. Okay? And the ones that are, you can’t tell they’re Puerto Rican. Okay? Because they’re either second generation, third gen -- whatever. Okay? And they’ve assimilated totally. Okay? Like I said, there was a flight of Puerto Ricans from Chicago. A big flight. It’s mostly Mexican where we used to be. They have taken over, and, at one time, (inaudible) the yuppies took over Humboldt Park. It’s changed. There’s only one Puerto Rican store that I can tell you that I know of from way back that hasn’t left. JJ: Which one is that one? CT: [02:05:00] That’s the one on Central Park and Division. JJ: Central Park and Division? CT: Mm-hmm. JJ: What’s the name? CT: I don’t know the name of it. JJ: But it’s right on the corner of Central Park and Division. CT: Division, Chicago Avenue, where they -- you know. JJ: Where they meet? CT: That store there has not changed. You can still go buy platanos. At Christmastime, they take the meat, and they grind it so that you can make your pasteles. They have everything there, but that’s the only one that I know of. And then, again, I left six years ago, so -- but, when we go back, that’s where we go and shop for Puerto Rican items. So -- JJ: Any final thoughts? 73 �CT: Yeah. There’s one. Okay. I wish that and I hope that our culture continues to grow in Chicago. I wouldn’t want [02:06:00] it to -- how do you say? There be no Puerto Rican culture here. I believe that that’s what’s gonna happen. There’ll be nothing left there. Somewhere else, you know. So, I hope that the Puerto Ricans who are still left there continue to do Puerto Rican Parade, to do things to foster our culture, and I wouldn’t want it to disappear totally. END OF AUDIO FILE 74 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2426f012b7793a6ae290977b29008f47.mp4 416cf80c9faff362efa3fa101080f467 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carmen Trinidad vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Trinidad_Carmen Title A name given to the resource Carmen Trinidad video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Trinidad, Carmen Description An account of the resource Carmen Trinidad’s family arrived in Lincoln Park in the 1950s. She was one of only a few Puerto Rican families to attend St. Michael’s Church in those days, although the neighborhood had already become heavily Puerto Rican. She recalls her father’s, Cesario Rivera’s, work as a leader of Council Number Three of the Caballeros de San Juan at St. Michael’s. She also remembers the way that organizations like the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María started and sustained softball leagues, picnics, social dances and dinners, retreats, plays, parades, festivals, and the establishment of a credit that still exists to this day. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5dedfe6526eafec20ec6022593535cad.pdf 04d80340b0bfe8f82ddc5047406262fc PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Hy Thurman Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 1/22/2012 Biography and Description Hy Thurman arrived in Chicago when he was seventeen years old from a small farming town in eastern Tennessee. He settled in Uptown. Most of his neighbors there were also southerners; many of them had come from textile and coal mining regions that were losing their jobs due to mechanization. For many workers from these “company towns,” losing one’s job also meant losing your home. In Uptown, housing was dilapidated because just like in Puerto Rican La Clark -- where southerners also had settled and lived next to, but segregated from, Puerto Ricans -- most of the housing was owned by absentee landlords. Converted hotel buildings were infested with roaches and rats, and were frequently unsafe in need of major repairs. Once urban renewal began, arson also became a problem as landlords would seek to collect the insurance on their properties and force their tenants out rather than make repairs. In the process, many poor residents lost their lives. There were few opportunities for children, as the city’s focus was on increasing the tax base and many in the official neighborhood associations sought to cleanse the areas of minorities and the poor, to raise their property values and profit margins. Mr. Thurman recalls his experiences growing up in Uptown over this time. He also describes co-founding the Young Patriots. In 1969, the Young Patriots became part of the original Rainbow Coalition, along with the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party. It more like an alliance, as all three groups had already been active within their own communities when they came to sit at the table. For example, Hy Thurman, �Jack “Junebug” Boykin, William “Preacherman” Fesperman, and many of the Young Patriots had already been involved with JOIN (Jobs or Income Now), a project run by Students for a Democratic Society, and the Goodfellows, JOIN’s de facto anti-police brutality committee, for several years which is what led them to form the Young Patriots. One of the Young Patriots’ main organizing efforts led to the Summerdale Scandal which exposed the then accepted criminal activities of eight policeman and put them in jail for burglaries, thefts, and extortions. This investigation also later led to the uncovering of a similar scandal at the 18th Police District, then located on Chicago Avenue, now closer to Old Town and Lincoln Park at 1160 North Larrabee Street. It was here that Commander Braasch, who daily picked up and harassed the Young Lords and their supporters on false charges, eventually went to jail for extortion of the local businesses in Old Town and in Lincoln Park. It was proven in court that he and an elite group of his officers would sell car and widow sticker labels while making a personal profit by offering special protection, “from the Young Lords and other gangs.” The Rainbow Coalition was symbolic in that it encouraged other groups to coalesce but put more focus on organizing the grassroots proletariat within their own their own communities and supporting each other. The participating groups also began to show solidarity by participating in each other’s actions, including holding many press conferences, speaking tours, neighborhood rallies, and demonstrations. Members of the Young Patriots participated in the over 1000 member March and Caravan to Mayor Richard J. Daley’s home for Young Lord Manuel Ramos, after he had been shot and killed by off duty policeman James Lamb. The Young Patriots and Panthers also participated in the Manuel Ramos March to the 18th District Chicago Avenue Police Station where gangs were used by the Gang Intelligence Unit to try to stop the March as it passed through the Cabrini Green Housing Projects and where the police set fire to a garbage can to try to instigate a riot in order to arrest the demonstrators. The Young Patriots and Black Panthers came to dozens of court hearings in support of the Cuatro Lords who were arrested for making a citizen’s arrest of Officer Lamb.The Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park, Poor People’s Coalition, Rising up Angry, Black Panther Party, LADO, Young Patriots and several other neighborhood groups, also participated with the Young Lords led take-over or occupation of McCormick Theological Seminary. And at the Chicago Eight Trial, the Young Lords daily organized hundreds of Puerto Ricans and Lincoln Park residents to support the Chicago Panthers and Chairman Bobby Seale. Rising Up Angry and the Young Patriots were also represented. Young Lords would travel on a regular basis to Uptown and to the West and South Side Black Panther offices and vice versa. During the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign in 1975, since the 46th ward included major parts of Uptown, the Young Lords continued to work with members and supporters of the Young Patriots. Today, Hy Thurman has a B.A. in Cultural Anthropology, has conducted ethnology interviews with a prominent anthropologist, worked for VISTA and for the Uptown People’s Northeastern Illinois University Center, and has held benefits for community organizations via Bluegrass Inc. He is also a teacher who specializes in Appalachian history and migration. �Transcript HY THURMAN: We had an affiliation with the Young Lords as well as the Black Panthers, and we formed the original Rainbow Coalition, which is the models being used today for community organizing. The Young Patriots were mostly of Southern descent, various states, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Virginia, many other states down the Appalachians. We actually had members from Texas, and Oklahoma, and other states, but, mostly, they were from the southern states that lived in predominantly a Southern, white community in Uptown. It was a port of entry for them to come into the North [00:01:00] because most of the people didn’t have jobs down South, and they had to migrate to the North, and Uptown was one of the (break in audio) the efficiency apartments. There were many buildings there that were divided into efficiency apartments. The rent was very cheap, so that’s where most of the Southern white people came into other than Detroit, and Cincinnati, and those areas. JOSE JIMENEZ: What were some of the other leaders in the Young Patriots, and what was your symbol like, and your colors, and all that? HT: Well -- JJ: I know the Young Lords and Panthers had different color berets, black berets for the Panthers, and the Young Lords had purple berets, and -- HT: Yeah. For a lot of us, we had -- we started out as being somewhat of greasers. You know, a greaser? Out of a [00:02:00] organization called the Uptown Goodfellas, and, to identify us, a couple things. A leather jacket, for one. The 1 �other was a Confederate flag that we had that we would wear, and that symbolized, of course, people from the South, but it also -- we were trying to take that flag and give it a whole different definition of what you’re accustomed to it to be. We were giving it to the people in the community, but we were saying that it’s not white power, per se, but it’s a white power that respected all people. Okay? And we were trying to change that definition of what that flag stood for, and I think we did ’cause we were also using [00:03:00] phrases, “Power to the people.” We were using, you know, equality as a basis for that flag because we wanted to tear down what that flag had meant to people. Of course, it meant slavery to a lot of people, and we were able to tear that down to give it a whole different definition. We were saying, “Okay, be proud of who you are, but let’s don’t be proud of some of the things that this has represented, so let’s change it.” Now, we could have picked something else, but we wanted to pick something that people identified with, and that was the Confederate flag. So, we were able to use that. We were able to term that as meaning something different. So, we were a group of non-racist Southern white people, [00:04:00] trying to do something in our community, and the whole thing wasn’t about racism anyway. It was about trying to make some changes within our community, and that’s how we got into forming the -- to help to form the Rainbow Coalition with the Black Panthers and the Young Lords of Lincoln Park at that time because all these communities were going through the same political upheaval. They were going through repression by the police. They were going through urban renewal, 2 �poverty, unemployment. So, we were able to form a coalition with them so we could have unity. JJ: Okay. There was some (inaudible) were involved in -- what were --? (break in audio) HT: Yeah. [00:05:00] One, for instance, one program that we were interested in, we (break in audio) rehab the community, and the city of Chicago had a proposal that they would displace 90 percent of the Southern white people that lived in the community, which is an area roughly, I think, probably 10 blocks long or something like that, and they would literally put a college in that area, tear down the community, and displace these people, without any alternative programs, without placing them in any other community, without any other housing. So, we, along with some other groups we had joined, formed [00:06:00] what was called the Hank Williams Village. This was a community that would be the alternative to the college, which would also include education because it would include schools. It would include schools, healthcare, housing for the people. So, therefore, we wouldn’t have to move people out. People could stay where they were, but we could be able to strengthen the city of Chicago by strengthening the community. Well, that didn’t work out very well. When we went to our meetings to -- went to meetings that were provided by the city, for instance, the committees that the city had set up, they would allow us to talk, but then, it would be like, “No, thank you. This is what we’re gonna do.” [00:07:00] So, we were involved in that struggle for housing. We were -- JJ: Was there a vote in the city council or anything about --? 3 �HT: Yes. There was a vote. There was a vote for this particular college to be put into the uptown community. JJ: (inaudible). HT: Truman College is the name of it now. It was a City of Chicago college. There was a vote by the city committee, you know, that was controlling it, and it was 100 percent unanimous, to my understanding, that they would put the college in the area. So, they had disregarded any proposals that we had set up for them or any of our comments because those committees were controlled, basically, by the City of Chicago, by Mayor Richard J. Daley. And so, what they wanted to do [00:08:00] Uptown at one time was a Gold Coast Community. At one time, it was the Hollywood in filmmaking. There were numerous studios in the area, and any major film was probably made in Chicago back in the ’30s, ’40s, you might say, in those times. The community was a very wealthy community. I mean, you have the Aragon Ballroom, which anybody that was anybody that sang, very wellknown would perform at the Aragon Ballroom. The housing was just beautiful. It was beautifully architect. Frank Lloyd Wright has a house in there that’s been developed, that he developed in there. Couple of ’em, I believe. Is that the name? Frank Lloyd Wright? Yeah. Architect? JJ: Yeah. HT: Yeah. JJ: Yeah. HT: [00:09:00] Also, these -- it (break in audio) houses were beautiful, but the movie industry moved, and they moved to Hollywood. And then, there was an exodus 4 �of people moving to the suburbs. It left a lot of vacancies, a lot of buildings vacant, and they tried to rent those out for a while, couldn’t do it. The landlords, of course, were absentee landlords ’cause they were owned by people maybe in California, other parts of the -- or they went to the suburbs. So, there were very few homeowners there left. So, they split these buildings up into apartments, efficiency apartments. [00:10:00] People started coming in and renting them. Now, it wasn’t necessarily Southern people that were doing that. These were other people that were coming in. So, by the time that the Southern people came into the area, the buildings were already dilapidated. They could have contributed to it because they don’t own the building, of course. And then, of course, if you got, you know, absentee landlords, they don’t really care about the building. Buildings become dilapidated. There was lead-based paint, children were getting lead poisoning, stairwells that weren’t safe, and the whole landscape of the community deteriorated. Now, the city knew that, at one time, that that was a Gold Coast and still could be, so their idea was to come in with urban renewal, with HUD, Housing and Urban Development, and tear the buildings down, [00:11:00] build new buildings, put a college in the area. Therefore, they could attract wealthier people to come into the community, and that’s what they wanted to do. So, they did, and we lost the battle, of course, to the City of Chicago because they already knew what they wanted, and they were gonna get it. Richard Daley -- that’s what he wanted. That’s what he got. So, it displaced 90 percent of the Southern population right there. Now, they had a Southern migration that went from, you know, Chicago, to Detroit, to Cincinnati, 5 �back home. So, we were involved in some of those committees. We were trying to get placed on those committees and could not be placed on it, so we would go to the meetings and air our grievances, our plans, plans that had been [00:12:00] drawn up by a very professional architecture firm that was being backed by other businesses outside the community, but it just never -- they wouldn’t listen. They totally ignored us. JJ: Going back (inaudible) how the Young Patriots formed as a group. How did that start? HT: Well, the Young Patriots -- I’ll have to go all the way back to when they first stared coming into the community. The community has always been economically depressed, and, because of that, it was oppressed by the city. It was oppressed (break in audio) had no representation in housing. [00:13:00] Sometimes, it’s said, one time that, sometimes, we thought that the only ones that ate well were the cats that came out and ate the mice in the buildings because they were infested. There were no jobs. And the belief was that there were jobs in Chicago. When they got here, there were no jobs. A lot of them have to go to the day labor agencies, where they would get maybe one day a week work at minimum wage, but, then again, they would have to pay off the man that was in charge of the day labor agency to get a job, so they never made much money there either. Southern people are a proud people, keeps to themselves a lot, doesn’t like handouts, that they call handouts, but would have to go get welfare. A lot of times, [00:14:00] the father would have to leave, or at least say they left, so they could show that the mother and the family was 6 �abandoned so they could get some type of welfare. So, it was a cultural shock that was going on, and, because there wasn’t a lot of things to do, people were on the street a lot. You know, a lot of things were happening on the street, any time there’s -- especially in the summertime. So, there was a large police presence in the area. There was a group of young guys, got organized and led a march on the police station because of police brutality. The city had been known to take some of their problem police officers and put ’em in this community. JJ: Were these the [00:15:00] Young Patriots, or --? HT: These were called the Uptown Goodfellas. JJ: Goodfellas, okay. HT: And this group basically was a group of people that sat around and just played the guitar, sang. Wasn’t a lot to do. Some of ’em worked, but most didn’t. Couldn’t find jobs. Couldn’t get schooling because there was nothing for them, to offer them to get school. And, you know, you’re talking about people that are 16, 17 years old. I mean, you’re not talkin’ about real adults. You’re just talkin’ about kids that had a -- they could go in either direction. They could become a street gang, which a lot did. And out of that grew a lot of frustration, as in any poor community at that time. [00:16:00] Police presence was very strong. A lot of people on the street. People killed. I mean, there were several people that were killed by the police. None of ’em were really trying to fight the police, but some of ’em were just literally murdered by the police. So, there are a lot of frustration, lot of things going on. You got to understand too that, if people came up from the South and they had what was called black lung, a black lung disease that they 7 �have from working in the mines, and they were no longer useful to the mines, so they would fire them. Some of them were actually living on property and in shanties that belonged to the mine, [00:17:00] so, therefore, they’d have to vacate. So, there were no jobs. They were sick. What are they gonna do? Well, Cousin Joe lives in Chicago, so let’s just go to Chicago and see what we can do. So, that’s how they ended up, a lot of times, in Uptown. Brown lung was also something that people got out of the textiles, from breathing fabrics. So, no insurance. No job. Families -- you know, what are you gonna do? Then, you had areas that had mostly farming. You had a lot of economic problems, banks taking over the farms, which got rid of a lot of the farmers, but also got rid of the people who were working on the farms, so they had no other place to go. They knew about what happened in California, and the Dust Bowl, and Oklahoma, and all those areas, but [00:18:00] they really didn’t want to go there, so they went to Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati, those areas. When they got to Chicago, there were no jobs. They couldn’t take care of their family, living in deplorable conditions. Alcoholism became a problem. People that didn’t drink start drinking a lot of times. Now, some did make it out. Some did. I’m not saying that everybody didn’t, but some did, but, for the majority of the people who didn’t have educations, didn’t have the contacts, it was pretty tough. So, for the young guys, all they saw was poverty, and all they saw was, you know, let’s go hustle on the street. Let’s go do somethin’. And some of us were [00:19:00] hustling on the street. I mean, we had to. We had to survive. Myself being 17 years old when I came here, couldn’t find a job. Didn’t have an education. What am I gonna do? 8 �I have no other place but my buddies on the street. Well, any time that there were three or more on the street, it can be considered a gang. Therefore, you could be taken in to jail. You can be, you know -- so you had to get off the street, but there’s no other place to go. So, there was a lot of frustration. There are a lot of confrontations with the police. So, essentially, what happened was there were -- the Students for a Democratic Society, for instance, came into the community, and they formed a organization called JOIN, Jobs or Income Now, and what they wanted to do was to reach some of the people. [00:20:00] What they wanted to do, they wanted to reach some of the people, to get them to start fighting for their rights to try to make some conditional changes within the community. At the same time, they were talking about the civil rights movement and how, in these other communities, and other parts of the country, and down South, that they’re fighting for justice and rights. You’re in a very unique community ’cause you’re in a Southern white community, you know, and majority of the oppression that Blacks were getting was in the South, and other -basically, culturally, the Southern white people are clannish people. They stick to their own. They don’t want to be bothered. So, because [00:21:00] of the -- I would say the education of racism within the South and what they’d been taught - what we had been taught, I have to say -- was the fact that we were a superior people to Blacks, or Hispanics, or American Indians, you know. But there were a few of us that were beginning to look at this and say, “Well, we don’t believe this is true,” because we started getting political ideology from some community organizers that came in from Students for a Democratic Society. 9 �JJ: Want some water, or --? HT: Yeah, let me get a drink. M1: (inaudible) on the table there. Let me get it. (break in audio) HT: That some of them had come out of the Uptown Goodfellas, which was a group that got together a few years before, and I’m talkin’ about maybe [00:22:00] sixty- I have to get the dates right, but I think it’s probably around ’65, ’66. Somewhere around in there. They actually organized a march onto the local police station. Now, this local police station, the Summerdale station in Uptown, was known for corruption. I mean, there was no secret about it. I know myself of police officers that would confiscate drugs and resell them. I know that -- police officers that would sell prostitution and I know that would sell stolen goods. At the same time, I’m not saying that every police officer there was bad, but, for the majority of them, they were, and they didn’t want to be controlled at all. So, if you get [00:23:00] a community, because of police brutality, to do a march on their police station, then there’s a problem. You’re gonna have a serious problem. And especially the fact that, later on, where they would let an alderman ride around in a police car, stopping people, you know you got a problem. So, some of us -- very few number -- decided that we really needed to try to do something in this community, and some of the group had come out of the Uptown Goodfellas, and they were political. They were becoming political, and I was becoming political at the same time with JOIN, community union, and other groups in the community. So, we formed a group to do some [00:24:00] 10 �organizing within the community and try to provide some services. Now, we got together initially because we were interested in a wide range of subjects, but what we could work on was urban renewal and the police issue. So, we formed a group and started calling ourselves the Young Patriot organization. We thought that’s our way of bein’ patriotic. If we’re gonna try to help our community, then we are patriots. If we’re gonna fight against oppression, we are patriots. So, that’s what we had started working on. We were a nonviolent group. I mean, we weren’t a militant group at all, although we had also participated in the Poor People’s Campaign in Washington. We’d been known to go down on military bases and handed out the Vietnam GI newspaper. We’d been known to [00:25:00] support other organizations and agencies, women’s rights, so we were becoming political at an early age. And so, what we did -- we heard about the Young Lords, Lincoln Park. We heard about the Black Panthers, of course. We knew about them, but our concept about the Young Lords was as a gang. Just a gang over there, a Puerto Rican gang that we didn’t want to fight against. You know, we didn’t want any fights. But then, we heard about the Young Lords becoming political, and we thought, wow. That’s pretty cool because that’s what we’re doin’ too. They had called us a gang, but we’re not a gang -- and started doing some organizing in their community and was doing some marches and that type of thing, and we’d already knew about the Black Panthers. [00:26:00] So, we were approached by some people to say, “Why don’t we get together for a meeting and see what happens with you guys?” You know, so, we did, and out of that meeting came the original Rainbow Coalition, and we had taken -- and 11 �because we were involved in other organizations within the Uptown community, mainly with the Uptown Area People’s Planning Coalition, JOIN, Native American Committee, Japanese American committees, a number of other organizations, we came up on the name of the Rainbow Coalition by taking a Nixon Agnew button and painting the color, a stripe, for each of the [00:27:00] peoples represented in the community, and that’s how we came up with what was called the Rainbow Coalition, and that was the beginning. Jesse Jackson didn’t create it. He used it. That’s all right. He can use it, you know, but that’s where it came from, and, from there, the Coalition started working together -- it’s said that and documented that, three days after we became the Coalition, the Rainbow Coalition, the FBI started putting us under surveillance, considering us to be dangerous. If you’re trying to do something for your community, why would it be dangerous? We weren’t militant. We were never proven to be militant. Okay? And we were never really proven to be a threat, but, somehow, we were determined by J. Edgar Hoover himself that this coalition was dangerous and that we were dangerous. So, [00:28:00] we started working more with the Coalition and were able to get resources from that to set up a free health clinic, offering people, those black lung people, those kids that were getting lead poisoning, those people who were chronically sick or people that just needed physicals for jobs -- you know, because they couldn’t afford a physical, they couldn’t get a job. So, people needed medication. There were doctors coming in from various hospitals, and colleges, and universities, and they were willing to give their services to help people. They were professional doctors. They weren’t just 12 �some hack. They were people who already were established in their communities, already established in hospitals. [00:29:00] Surgeons. There were social workers that were willing to work with people to get through this red tape every time they went somewhere. There were lab technicians, you know, pharmacists. There were people who really did have a concern about what was going on in this community but never, ever had a way of taking care of it, of offering their services. (break in audio) JJ: You can just go right into that, after -- you know, describe (inaudible). HT: Okay. M1: Okay? HT: Yeah, I’m ready now. M1: I’m ready. HT: But, no matter where we went with the program, we always had problems. We always had outside problems, and it was either code violation, or somebody putting pressures on the director of a facility, or something like that. We’d have to continuously move. Now, what was happening because of that -- now, we also had [00:30:00] people going to the other organizations and agencies and working. Okay? One of ’em, which was very successful, wasn’t controlled by the Patriots, but it certainly had the Patriots’ representation, and, because of that, the Patriots was, I think, one of the reasons they were brought into the community, was an educational program from Northeastern Illinois University. That’s how I got my college degree. Now, you understand that, when I came to Chicago, I 13 �was reading at a third grade level as a ninth grade dropout. Okay? But, because of that program and because I wanted to go get an education and get other people involved, I managed to get a degree in cultural anthropology with honors. It wasn’t given to me. I had to really work for it. But we also brought other people in there that they could get an education off the street. Same people. Just like me [00:31:00] but rainbow color, people from every nationality, every color represented. Some were nurses. Actually, one’s a medical doctor. Some are nurses. Some are social workers. One of ’em was actually in charge of, I believe, the placement for Northeastern. So, you know, other people went off and became firemen. Some people -- but it gave them an opportunity to make a living, but then, therefore, they are involved in other organizations and other place where they can offer their services, and that’s how it worked. It just spread out from there, but, because we were successful, the city -- what they should have been doing with the war on poverty money that was coming in at that time that was started by the Kennedy and Johnson administration to send a lot of money into the cities and other parts of the country just to help people get [00:32:00] an education, to help people find jobs and to give people jobs -- we didn’t know where the majority of the money was going. It certainly wasn’t going to the community. They hired people from the community, but the people literally didn’t do very much until election time, and then they were supposed to go out and get votes. The free health clinic became a black eye for the city because, when the press started talking about, “Why doesn’t the city offer these types of services? You got communities offering them.” And we started -- well, the 14 �harassment started before that. It started, like, three days after we made the Coalition possible with the Young Lords and the Black [00:33:00] Panthers. We were all involved in that. We started getting harassed. Our apartments would be raided. We’d get on the street. We would be stopped, harassed. Just almost everywhere we went, we’d be harassed. The alderman was riding around with the police, which showed that, I mean, had Daley’s stamp of approval to do whatever you wanted to do. There were informants we know of that were sent inside the organization to help destroy the organization. There were people sent out in the community to say that we were KKK in various communities -- with the Black Panthers, for instance. They had rumors going around that we were involved with the KKK. All kinds of things going on. All kinds of harassment. [00:34:00] Beatings from -- with? some of our people. So, the City of Chicago wanted to try to get rid of us. They wanted to try to get rid of our programs, so, therefore, they would, every chance they got, you know, to make us look like the bad guy, the dangerous coalition. We were working with the Black Panthers. Black Panthers working with us. Young Lords working with us. Us working with the Young Lords. So, it was like they were trying to play everybody against each other. This was happening in all the communities, but it turned out to be a very powerful coalition. It turned out to be a coalition that the -- we had no way [00:35:00] of knowing. You know, the Young Lords had no way of knowing, and the Panthers had no way of knowing just how powerful it would be because it was considered to be probably one of the most dangerous coalitions in the country. Why? We don’t know why. We were out working in the community. 15 �But it was considered to be that by J. Edgar Hoover, and it was considered to be that by Mayor Richard J. Daley. It was kind of making ’em look bad. That what was happen-(break in audio) JJ: Coalition. What was the philosophy? I mean, were the Panthers in Charge of the Young Lords and the Young Patriots, or -- how did that work, or --? HY: No. It was equality. It was a coalition built on mutual respect for each other’s community and each other’s people. Not one [00:36:00] group would have dominance over the other group. People were saying that, you know, the Black Panthers were gonna control this and that, but no. The Black Panthers never tried to control us. The Young Lords never tried to control us. Both were much bigger than us in our groups, but no, it was -- we got nothing but respect, and, in a lot of times, honor from the Black Panthers and from the Young Lords, and we were considered to be brothers, brothers and sisters, at that point. But, you know, the powers that be saw it differently. They didn’t want that to happen ’cause it was pretty dangerous for them. JJ: (inaudible). I’ve heard that mentioned. Was that part of the Coalition, or --? HT: Yes. Self determination, self dignity, respect. Yeah. [00:37:00] We wanted all that because we wanted people to gain and regain their self-respect that had been taken from them, that they had been treated, in a strange land that they were in, like they were different, they were nothing. Excuse me. (coughs) But, no, self-determination was something that was very important to us -- entire Coalition because I think that was one of the biggest ingredients. Self- 16 �determination for your own community, not to be controlled by outside powers to be, and, even though the city government thought that it was a part of the community, it was only a little part of the community. It wasn’t the community itself, and the [00:38:00] community was the grassroots people that was in the community, that lived there, that went through their everyday, [and day, and day?], not expecting anything, but just expecting to live and make a living, you know, that they could go to church. They could go shopping. That they could put their kids in schools without having problems with it, but it seemed like, everywhere you went, there was some kind of harassment or problem in those days. I know it’s hard for people to believe, but it’s absolutely true. You couldn’t go anywhere without having a problem, and those problems were not caused by people in the community. They were caused by people outside of the community. They were caused by, basically, the city administration. They wanted to control every part of your life at that point. Somehow, you’re being controlled, every part of your life, that you didn’t have a self-worth, that they were the ones that knew how to make the decisions [00:39:00] for you. And, of course, with the city administration, it all has to do with votes. And, let’s face it. If the city had put in programs and helped people, they would have got all the votes, but where was that money going? It had to be going somewhere else, and that was our question. Where is it going? You know, so, the only time you saw your precinct captain was voting time, and that’s when he came around. You didn’t see him at meetings. You didn’t see him trying to work for decent housing, or for healthcare, or anything like that. You only saw him around during voting 17 �time, but you saw heavy police presence around all the time, and the Rainbow Coalition was exactly that. It was, you know, the American Indians, the Hispanics, the Blacks, [00:40:00] the Southern whites, the Japanese Americans. Everybody. Everybody was the same, and I know a lot of people like to say that, well, the Black Panthers were so militant. Well, they were in certain areas, but yet, they started strongly believing in equality, that, no matter what color you is, you are, but, if you’re going through poverty, then you’re pretty much the same. Poverty has no respect for anybody. It’s gonna treat everybody the same. So, that Coalition actually formed the ideology of -- we can make a change with our community, but we cannot make a change when our community -- when we’re divided. We can only do it by working together and cooperating, and, you [00:41:00] know, you see that today. Even see it in political campaigns. They talk about grassroots, coalitions, everybody being involved. Back in those days, it was just the old, white men up there. They didn’t care. They were just controlling everything, but they can’t do that anymore. The only way you’re gonna make a change is down in your community, I think, and it comes from there. JJ: So, okay. (break in audio) And it led to a lot of different groups split between the Panthers, split between the Young Lords. HT: Mm-hmm. JJ: I understand there was a split within the Young Patriots. Can you describe how that came about, that process? HT: Well, that came about by -- we had -- 18 �JJ: Split. HT: -- couple of members, yeah, that wanted the organization to go national, and we were at a [00:42:00] point where we didn’t -- we being some of the leaders within the Young Patriots -- did not want that to happen. Now, the Young Patriots were formed, actually, by three people. That was Jack “Junebug” Boykin, Bobby Joe McGinnis, and myself. We were the three people that formed it because we had a way of going out. I mean, we can actually go out in the street and talk to people, and we were becoming political because of, you know, SDS, and JOIN, and other -- just life, basically. Made sense. There were some other people that came into the organization that had not been through that, had not gone through what we and others in the group had gone through in the community, but had a good ideology politically, wanted to be a little bit more radical, wanted [00:43:00] to be a little bit more militant. We were not ready for that. The community wasn’t ready for it. They knew the community wasn’t ready for that, and the community wouldn’t have done it, I don’t believe. So, they split off and formed what was called the Patriot Party, and we told -- literally, we don’t really want much to do with it. We want to organize here. We really want to organize here, get it together. This is for people that- then, let’s do something. And so, they took it to other parts of the country -- New York, Oakland, some other areas, I think, if I’m right -- and did health clinics, that kind of stuff, but, also, I understand there was an offshoot of that [00:44:00] one. I’m not sure, but they became more militant, and they ended up with a lot of prob—(break in audio) it came down on us real hard. So, that was a part of the split right there, and, you know, the -- you know 19 �your stuff. The Young Patriot Party didn’t last very long. We’re considered to be very short-lived, but it was our concept that’s been carried on now, and I think it’s being carried on in, you know, the Coalition. Concept has been carried on. So, we were just a part of that. We were only a part of the Coalition, and the Patriot Party had all kinds of problems. There were people -- weapons as I know of. I do believe that there were probably drugs planted on them. I do believe that [00:45:00] the government itself had a lot to -- I don’t think everything that they were accused of actually happened. Okay? But I do know that they were a little bit more militant than we were, and we were not ready for it. We just did not want that to happen. JJ: (inaudible). M1: Yeah, we are. JJ: Okay. Okay, so, I mean, was it just that they were more militant? I mean, did they have connections in the community like you did, or what happened when they became more militant? HT: I don’t think they had the connection to the community like we did, and to the grassroots coming up -- JJ: (inaudible). HT: Right, because we came up through the community, basically. We knew the community. We were a part of the community. We were poor like the people in the community we were trying to work with. We were the [00:46:00] uneducated that we were trying to work with, and we were actually -- when I’m saying uneducated, I’m saying academically. There’re some very intelligent people that 20 �don’t have the academics, very, very -- but what I’m saying is some of the people that were involved in the Patriot Party, you know, had their degrees and really had other places to go. We didn’t have any other place to go, for instance. These guys could go anywhere. They had other places to go. We didn’t really have anywhere to go. We had to stay where we were. In other words, we had to take a stand where we were. We didn’t have the resources to go anywhere else. So, it was sort of like the students that came into the area. They had places to go. They could go back. They could go home. They could go here. [00:47:00] Some of ’em lived in the suburbs and could always go back, but we couldn’t go anywhere. We had to stay exactly where we’re at. JJ: Was there any (inaudible) had a big effect? I know some of us went to the (inaudible) we went over there for the (inaudible) -- HT: Mm-hmm. JJ: -- there. Were you guys at the (inaudible)? [I’m not sure?] -- HT: I don’t remember. I think so, but I don’t remember. JJ: How did it affect the Patriots? HT: Oh, yeah. It affected us in a lot of different ways. Course, first of all, we’re part of the Coalition, and we can really see what’s going on, and there was never a doubt in our mind that he wasn’t (inaudible). We knew that. We knew that that was a whole setup from the beginning. It’s been proven. But we knew [00:48:00] that we had to start being a little bit more careful about how we were organizing or, you know, being public, actually, because, around that time, we started getting a lot of heat also, but it affected us because, boy, it was a devastating 21 �thing that happened. We knew that it was just a planned assassination, basically, is what we knew. I think it’s hard for people to believe, people that weren’t there. People even today are like, “How can this happen?” Well, it certainly did happen, and it was -- even today, when I walk through Uptown, I have to look behind me. You know, [00:49:00] I don’t know what’s there. I’m like-- you know? I can always tell when there’s someone around me. So, I don’t think it’s anything that I’m ever gonna lose. Some of the other Patriots probably never lost that either, that they’re constantly looking around. But I’d have to take pride in what happened with the Coalition. I really do. I think it’s something that I believe, that I didn’t know, okay? But I always believed it, ’til recently, that it started changing the whole face of organizing, as a way of organizing. If we can help one person, that’s worth it. JJ: What about (break in audio) you’ve come back. I mean, when you came back -- HT: Mm-hmm. JJ: -- when you look at the way Uptown is today, I mean, what sort of changes and how -- your feeling towards that? HT: [00:50:00] Well, I think, for a while there, you know, the city did exactly what it wanted to do. It got the college in it, tore down buildings, put up new buildings, rehabbed other buildings, took some of the buildings, turned them into lofts, flats, you know. So, it changed the architecture of it. It changed the landscaping of it, and it started promoting it to get wealthier people in the community, and it did. That was the place to live for a while, Uptown. Well, now, it looks like there’s boarded-up buildings there, and other buildings are getting very dilapidated, so I 22 �think it’s going [00:51:00] back to way it was before, so they may have to do it all over again. I don’t know, but the way I feel about it was it -- I think they should have went along with our program. I think that our program would have made the city much stronger. You could have said that it was a very racially mixed city they’d be proud of, but it didn’t. So, now, it seems like they’ve replaced one group of people with another group of people, and that people have gone somewhere else, that being the yuppies, I guess, as they call ’em, whoever -you know, the young, white, middle-class, upper middle-class people, lived there for a while, and, now, they’ve moved out. So, they’re having problems getting people in there now, and I don’t necessarily like what they did, course, but I think [00:52:00] that, if they’d gone with our program, they would have had a much stronger community. JJ: Are a lot of the Southern people still there, or --? HT: No. There’s not a lot of Southern people there at all. Course, most of the people at that time are probably -- they’ve probably passed away by now. It’s been 40 years or so. But there’s not a large population of Southern people there. There is a noticeable Black population there, and there is a gang problem there again. So, it’s sort of like what they did was temporary. It didn’t become part of the Gold Coast like they wanted. It didn’t get those businesses. It didn’t get those people coming in, and, if you drive through there, you’ll see some very modern, big buildings. Hospitals are -- it’s closed. I mean, they’re vacant. The buildings are vacant. [00:53:00] What are they gonna do now? You know, split that up into efficiency apartments and start all over again? Very well could, but -- I guess the 23 �only way to keep history from repeating itself is don’t allow it to repeat itself, you know? So, I don’t know what they’re gonna do, but, if they would listen to some of us, we can tell ’em what to do. Something that would work. JJ: Okay. END OF AUDIO FILE 24 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cacff1bbc74fec3439c2e56374a98339.mp4 722ff5d48ae1108be32f9ab2fc2abdc0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Hy Thurman vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Campo a la ciudad migración--Illinois--Chicago Pobreza--Illinois--Chicago Young Patriots Organización Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Thurman_Hy Title A name given to the resource Hy Thurman video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thurman, Hy Description An account of the resource Hy Thurman arrived in Chicago when he was seventeen years old from a small farming town in eastern Tennessee. Mr. Thurman co-founded the Young Patriots. In 1969, the Young Patriots became part of the original Rainbow Coalition, along with the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party. Hy Thurman, Jack “Junebug” Boykin, William “Preacherman” Fesperman, and many of the Young Patriots had been involved with JOIN (Jobs or Income Now), a project run by Students for a Democratic Society, and the Goodfellows, JOIN’s de facto anti-police brutality committee, for several years which is what led them to form the Young Patriots. One of the Young Patriots’ main organizing efforts led to the Summerdale Scandal which exposed the then accepted criminal activities of eight policeman and put them in jail for burglaries, thefts, and extortions. Today, Hy Thurman has a B.A. in Cultural Anthropology, has conducted ethnology interviews with a prominent anthropologist, worked for VISTA and for the Uptown People’s Northeastern Illinois University Center, and has held benefits for community organizations via Bluegrass Inc. He is also a teacher who specializes in Appalachian history and migration. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Rural-urban migration--Illinois--Chicago Poverty--Illinois--Chicago Young Patriots Organization Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-01-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3eefb6142111ef5dd1a68f645cb6ca8b.pdf 91ff164be9571e2bee4aebb1221bb5d4 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: America “Mecca” Sorrentini Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/11/2012 Biography and Description America Sorrentini was born in Puerto Rico. She moved first to Boston and then to Chicago, arriving in the 1970s. Ms. Sorentini’s parents were prominent organizers and activists in the struggle for Puerto Rican self-determination, working primarily in and around Santurce, Puerto Rico. Ms. Sorrentini, or “Mecca” as she is known, began her own community activism in Boston working on a variety of issues including housing. She became active with Movimiento Pro Independencia and FUPI (Federación Universitaria Pro-Independencia), the student university equivalent, in the late 1960s. These groups that was proactive in occupations and strikes especially at the Rio Piedras branch of the University of Puerto Rico. By the time Ms. Sorrentini arrived in Chicago she was already aware of the work of the Young Lords, as word of their actions in Chicago had spread throughout cities along the east coast and into Puerto Rico. In Puerto Rico there were jealousies among some pro-independence groups but in Chicago the movement was young and groups sought unity with each other. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez met with her and she describes witnessing how the Young Lords developed and grew without minimal funds, were constantly fighting city hall, and how they remained firm in their commitment to Latinos and the poor, as well as to their principles. Ms. Sorrentini organized a Chicago branch of the Puerto Rican Socialist Party. They joined up with Rev. Jorge Morales and Rev. María Lourdes Porrata of the West Town Concerned Citizens Coalition and organized in Wicker Park and in Humboldt Park. One of their �primary locations was San Lucas United Church of Christ that was across the street from Humboldt Park. Ms. Sorrentini always remained in solid contact with the Young Lords. She, and the Chicago Puerto Rican Socialist Party, assisted with the Jiménez aldermanic campaign and later the Harold Washington campaign. When the Young Lords celebrated their official founding date, which is September 23rd the same day as the Grito de Lares or Puerto Rican Independence Day, they selected Ms. Sorrentini to be their keynote speaker. More recently, Ms. Sorrentini has fought with city inspectors who want to tear down the house in Santurce, Puerto Rico where she and her parents grew up. She has converted it into a museum that has continuous exhibitions by artists displaying their works. She lives in Puerto Rico but continues to maintain contact with Chicago. In 2000, she was a featured speaking at the Lincoln Park Camp in Lakeview, Michigan – a meeting organized to support the displaced Puerto Ricans and poor of Lincoln Park, bring attention to the displacement of families from Humboldt Park, and in support of protesters who wanted to evict the U.S. Navy from Vieques. �Transcript AMERICA SORRENTINI: -- Casa Sofia de Puerto Rico. This is in honor of my mother because this is the house she left us. When my father died, she struggled to keep the house. And as part of -JOSE JIMENEZ: What was her name? Was her name Sofia? Was her name -- AS: -- the old tradition, right. Sofia, yes. JJ: Sofia, okay. What was his name? What was his name? AS: Benigno, Benigno Sorrentini. He was the founder of the old Puerto Rico Socialist Party which wanted Puerto Rico to be a socialist state of the United States. JJ: Okay, okay. AS: Of course, he was very romantic. He really thought that could be done. (laughs) But that was the old Socialist Party of Puerto Rico had a pro-statehood platform. So my mother -- JJ: They were pro-statehood, the socialists. AS: Yes, yes. JJ: They wanted to become a state of the United States? AS: Right, right. JJ: But socialist. AS: But socialist, right. JJ: A socialist state of the United -- AS: A socialist state, that’s right. JJ: Oh, okay. All right. 1 �AS: With Santiago Iglesias [00:01:00] Pantín and my father and many other founded the Puerto Rico Socialist Party so -- JJ: And so when was his party? What years? AS: This is in the early 1930s. JJ: Nineteen thirties, okay. AS: Yes, uh-huh. JJ: That’s when they started? They started at that time? AS: That’s right, yes. JJ: And he started then? Before me. AS: Yes, yes. Uh-huh. I can give you a clipping -- JJ: Okay. Okay, good. AS: -- and so on so you clip it for your records -- JJ: We can put it on the interview, on the interview -- AS: -- because I know -- yes. Okay. JJ: -- depending on what you want. AS: Right, so you can clip it. I also have a documentary which -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:01:35]? (laughs) AS: -- this is portrait. I don’t know about that. You’ll have to ask them. JJ: (laughs) For their permission. AS: This is for the University of Arizona. JJ: Oh, the University of -- oh. AS: It is [QUAD Productions?], okay? JJ: Okay. No, but if you put it in, we can put it as part of your (overlapping dialogue; 2 �inaudible) -AS: Oh, okay. Right. Yes. Well, this is Puerto Rico balcón. The balcony is very important. In all traditional households, the balcón [00:02:00] is very important because it’s the part of the house that you interact with the people and you talk to everybody and is the plaza de mercado. How would you call plaza de mercado? JJ: The center, center -- AS: Market center? JJ: -- market center, market center. AS: Okay, the market center for fresh products and so on is right down there. And the Puerto Rican tradition was that you would walk every day to the plaza de mercado to get the -- JJ: The farmers market, the farmers market. AS: -- fresh vegetables at the farmers market. JJ: Farmers market, yeah. AS: It’s more like a farmers market so the balcony is very important. And this side entrance from the old house -- JJ: So every day, every day, people walk to the farmers market? AS: Oh yes. JJ: Okay. AS: Uh-huh, yes. JJ: Fantastic. Get their fresh fruits and vegetables? AS: Fresh fruits and vegetables and all that. JJ: Because this is what we’re -- 3 �AS: Yeah. JJ: -- this is San Juan, Santurce where we’re at. AS: This is called Santurce which is like the new San Juan [00:03:00] area of the old, old San Juan. So the Santurce only was established here by the cimarrónes. The cimarrónes were the Puerto Rican slaves who escape slavery and then they became on their own, the free -- JJ: And they established Santurce? AS: -- free men and women. And they use all this area because this was not -- JJ: Of Santurce. AS: -- was not settled yet. And then later on, it became a settlement. So really, that’s why my mother was called cimarróna. She called herself a cimarróna. That’s why I want to keep this house as part of the symbol of freedom. So that’s why we’re still struggling to keep this house [00:04:00] as a free space center. But the municipality of San Juan has made it impossible. As a matter of fact, this was declared a estorbo público? How you call that? A, it’s -- JJ: A public -- AS: -- nuisance? How you say that in English? There is a special terminology that says when a property has been abandon, you declare it public nuisance? JJ: Nuisance, public nuisance, yeah. AS: Public nuisance. And then you become part of that list. And then the municipality -- so if you cannot show -- JJ: So they declared that house a -- AS: Yes because -- 4 �JJ: -- a public nuisance. AS: -- and if you cannot prove that you have the money to comply with the municipality codes, then they take the house. See, I was in Chicago and I had to fly over here. It’s because they to [00:05:00] remove the house. JJ: So that’s a way of trying to demoralize, demoralize people and they can -- AS: Well, they are -- the thing is that you cannot -- JJ: They’re going to take your house, they’re trying to take your house. AS: Right. If you cannot prove that you have the money to comply with the codes of the municipio de San Juan, then they take the house. JJ: So you’re being harassed by the building inspectors and the city and -- AS: All that stuff. JJ: -- people like that. AS: Yes, and we had to, I had to -- JJ: They don’t call it harassment. AS: -- even I had to -- yes. I had to make compliance -- JJ: Compliance. AS: -- compliance. JJ: Well, they call it compliance, exactly. AS: Right. So I had to make a loan, then I found out that they don’t give loans to people who are over a certain age because you see, I’m 75 years old. So -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:05:50] teenager, (Spanish) [00:05:052] teenager. AS: Oh yeah, right. JJ: (laughs) 5 �AS: But the municipality of San Juan didn’t accept my teenage -- JJ: (inaudible) [00:06:00] (laughter) -- AS: But so I had to come, I had to come and prove to them, I had to try to make a loan. I couldn’t make it and then I’m on the family. We put in all the money in the bank to say that we were able to comply with the codes because part of the code was, for example, to remove the electric meter from there to here and that cost us 20,000 dollars. JJ: So they just -- AS: To move the meter like -- JJ: From that part of the house to the other part of the house. AS: Right, because in the old times -- JJ: But what was the reason? AS: -- people would go, would just go in and read the meter and we have the old meter there. But in order to put it out there on the column outside so they wouldn’t have to come in, it cost us close to 20,000 dollars because we had to do it through the basement underground. It was a big, big thing. Like that, every municipality code -- [00:07:00] as a matter of fact, we have put in now 250,000 dollars. JJ: But it sounds like what, 250,000 dollars? AS: Yes. So anyway, the balcón is very important. JJ: Okay, but let me -- before we -- AS: Yes. JJ: -- get to the balcón, it sounds like you’re feeling that maybe there was a little 6 �harassment going on that -- because of your background. AS: Well, I think -- JJ: I mean, you’re feeling that we can’t prove it but you’ve -- AS: There are many different reasons. One is the age. There is an age discrimination because if you cannot prove you cannot have the money in the bank -- JJ: Yes. AS: -- to comply with the municipality, you have to go to the public hearing in order to show that you can’t comply with the violations they accuse your house [00:08:00] in order for them to justify putting you in that list of estorbo público or the public nuisance. JJ: Okay. Was the house abandoned? Did it look abandoned? AS: No, we just, I just didn’t have anybody living in the house. JJ: Okay, so it was just vacant. AS: Vacant, vacant. JJ: So it wasn’t abandoned, it was vacant. AS: Right. But the people around, they took care of it like in the old times. (laughs) They would look out for it and so on. So we had to -- JJ: So the neighbors, because you’re close to the neighbors. AS: Right. JJ: You’re close to the neighbors. AS: Yeah. Right in front and the other ones. These are people that we’ve known forever. We moved here on 1944, (Spanish) [00:08:43]. 7 �JJ: (Spanish) [00:08:45]. AS: (Spanish) [00:08:46]. And this is, this house has been in the old sociological tradition of extended family in which my brother, his [00:09:00] wife, his kids live here. My sister, her kid, like Jim-- JJ: Yeah, Jim. AS: -- they also lived here. So these extended family and other people, other than my mother (Spanish) [00:09:13]? JJ: (Spanish) [00:09:18]. AS: How do you say that? (Spanish) [00:09:19]. JJ: Stepchildren or --? AS: Not stepchildren. Is that you -- JJ: Okay. Children you raise, yeah. AS: -- you bring them in your family and you raise them. JJ: Yeah, that’s a -- AS: You call them foster? No. JJ: Foster child. AS: But they don’t pay -- you know. JJ: But they’re not foster, they’re -- AS: You don’t -- you volunteer. They are not foster. JJ: Yeah, they’re not volunteer. AS: We call it crianza -- JJ: That’s part of the extended, extended family. AS: -- extended family. 8 �JJ: Extended family. AS: You know, it’s -- we had like -- JJ: That you just kind of you raised. That’s just part of the culture. AS: -- 15 people here. JJ: It’s part of the culture to raise other -- AS: Right, raise other kids. JJ: -- help people raise their children. AS: Yes, so we had the other children that living here, too. JJ: Okay, living in this house, okay. AS: So this house, [00:10:00] the old transportation system were coaches and that’s why you have that big, huge step over there because the coach was high. And then from the coach, you would just step out there. JJ: So the coche was what? Was a car? AS: Coche, the car? It was the car. JJ: Right, the car. Okay. AS: El carro de -- the old car. JJ: But it was the older type of cars that had the -- AS: The older car -- JJ: -- the thing on the side where you step on. AS: -- that were, yeah, by horses. (laughs) JJ: By horses. AS: Coche. (laughs) JJ: Oh, it was a coach run by horse. 9 �AS: Sí, el coche. JJ: The car, oh the motor was a horse. AS: How you call a car -- JJ: The motor was a horse. AS: -- run by horses? A coach? JJ: A coach, yeah. Stage coach. AS: Stage coach. JJ: Not a coach, it was a coach, it was a coach. MALE SPEAKER 2: Horse-drawn carriage. JJ: Horse-drawn carriage. AS: He tells me the wrong word and I use it. JJ: I make a muck, I make a muck. AS: (laughs) Right, right. JJ: But horse-drawn carriage. That’s what it is, a horse-drawn carriage. AS: So then the coach would come out there but in the old tradition, the balcóns are always important because many balcóns would go all around the house. So here, [00:11:00] we have an entrance over there. It’s another entrance over here. This is for this house, some little pictures and so on -- JJ: You want to get some pictures over there? AS: -- of Casa de Puerto Rico -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:11:14]. AS: -- in 1964. Yeah. JJ: (Spanish) [00:11:17]. 10 �AS: Yeah, right. Yeah, okay. This another entrance. JJ: Do you want to take some pictures -- those pictures? Can you get that? M2: Yeah. (b-roll; no dialogue) [00:11:26 - 00:12:16] AS: Okay. And these are, these are my father’s books. M2: Do you want to go ahead and repeat that real quick? JJ: Do you want to repeat that again? AS: What? JJ: What this is called? AS: Recibidor. JJ: Say that again? AS: This is a recibidor, a very important part of the house because this is -- JJ: So people kind of come in the front here then this is -- AS: -- this is the informal greeting of people who visit you. The formal greeting is the salon. JJ: This is where you first make sure they don’t have any guns on them or anything? (laughter) AS: Yeah. M2: Go ahead. Say that again. AS: So this is the recibidor. [00:13:00] This is part of the house, too. All this was in in this house. We just have kept it. And these are my father’s books. My father is a self-taught man. He just finish up the second grade and he kept on studying on his own. These are his law books and then he was elected to the House of 11 �Representatives on two consecutive running for the Socialist Party of Puerto Rico. And we’ve been very proud because he really was a self-taught man and he had a lot of harassment from the, from the bourgeoisie, from the Puerto Rican bourgeoisie. Of course -JJ: Now where did, where did the Puerto Rican bourgeoisie live? AS: Well, they were Republicans. JJ: They were Republicans. (laughter) Okay, so they were always Republican the majority? AS: The Puerto Rican [00:14:00] Republicans and he suffered a lot of harassment and physical and abuse and all that. And they organized armed groups which were called in Puerto Rico Turbas, t-u-r-b-a-s, Turbas, which were like I don’t know how you call it. But these were organized with the machetes and so on to counteract the Puerto Rican efforts to unionize. JJ: To unionize. AS: And the Socialist Party to -- JJ: To unionize in factories or --? AS: -- who work with the, with the, with the American Federation of Labor. JJ: Okay. AS: And so they were, these were the Republicans who counteracted that. JJ: So the turbas were armed with machetes. AS: So the Turbas, yes. They were armed with -- yes, yes. JJ: [00:15:00] So they were killing people, they were killing people at that time. AS: Yes, they were really, they were really aggressive, let’s say. 12 �JJ: They were very aggressive. AS: Uh-huh, putting it mildly. JJ: So they were like the Ku Klux Klan or something like that, like a little, like something. AS: Very much so. JJ: Very much so. AS: So and so on, yes. JJ: And this is what year? Is it ‘30s or --? AS: This was early ‘30s. The Turbas were really organized even before that because the, they also were against a Socialist Party being formed in Puerto Rico. JJ: Okay. AS: So if I’m talking too much -- JJ: No, that’s okay. AS: -- you just ask me questions whatever you want to, okay? JJ: (inaudible) AS: Pues, as part of this house, and this is very important because this, this is, this is handmade and this is the, this is the very proud [00:16:00] statement of Puerto Rican artist craft. Because this is 100 years old and it -- you just, you just refresh it and keep it and it lasts forever. And this is made out of a very, very special (inaudible), a very special formula of sand and oil that comes from the rabbit’s tail which is the strongest oil there is. But it’s a lot of work. But still, it’s a very, it’s a very good example of the ingenuity of in the tropics and being close to the sea, how to be artistic as much as possible within the circumstances. So this is called 13 �argamasa. JJ: [00:17:00] Argamasa. AS: Argamasa. So we spend a lot of time restoring it. So we have a, an artist, a contemporary artist called Celia Sanchez. She’s exhibiting in this part of the house. JJ: So you’re using the house now and then for artists and --? AS: We’re trying to, yes. We’re using the house to facilitate to artists space so that they can exhibit and so on. These are from Augusto Marín and so on. So we have other areas. So basically, this -- (Spanish) [00:17:46] (laughs) -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:17:50]? AS: (Spanish) [00:17:51]. This one, this one. JJ: (Spanish) [00:17:51]? AS: Yeah, these were there -- this was my father’s and [00:18:00] mother’s. If it wasn’t open, you can see a different kind of life, right? Because this is, this was my parents’ bedroom. JJ: Bedroom, this is the bedroom. AS: So that is -- so because they want, they like the entrance to the, to the balcón and then -- JJ: Okay, so they’ve got an entrance to the balcony. AS: Yeah, right. So Cha Cha, I wish you had time (inaudible) -- JJ: (inaudible) AS: (inaudible) JJ: (inaudible) 14 �AS: Yeah. No, but I want you to see, to see the documentary [The Hidden Group?]. We go to (inaudible). JJ: [00:19:00] Oh, yeah. AS: We call it (inaudible) and so on. JJ: (Spanish) [00:19:03 - 00:19:00] -- AS: (Spanish) [00:19:10]? JJ: (Spanish) [00:19:10 - 00:19:16]. AS: Okay, okay. All right. So -- JJ: (inaudible) AS: -- right. (Spanish) [00:19:21]. JJ: (Spanish) [00:19:23]. AS: That’s right. (inaudible) [00:19:32 - 00:19:40]. JJ: (inaudible) AS: Right. M2: No. AS: No. What is your name again? M2: Tim. AS: Tim? M2: Yeah. AS: Wow, that’s easy. M2: That is easy. AS: This is the bathroom. JJ: Why is there’s two of them? 15 �AS: This is the bath. JJ: Why do you got two of them? AS: Oh, this is the bidet. JJ: [00:20:00] What’s that? AS: It’s a bidet. It -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:20:04]. AS: It’s a hygiene for women. JJ: For women. Okay. AS: This water spreads up. JJ: Spreads up, okay. AS: Yeah. JJ: That’s more modern. AS: No, this has been here forever. JJ: Oh, it’s been here forever? AS: Yeah, yeah. This old, old bidet. JJ: So did you get it with the bidet? AS: Bidet, yeah. JJ: Did you get that, Tim? Have you ever seen these before or am I the only one that --? M1: I’ve heard of them, yeah. AS: Yeah, right. JJ: Because they’ve had this for years, I guess, the -- AS: Yeah, it’s probably 100 years old, the bidet. (inaudible) 16 �JJ: (inaudible) AS: It’s other room. JJ: (inaudible) AS: Oh. JJ: A bidet or --? AS: Yes. JJ: Okay. We want to get this. AS: Ah. JJ: (Spanish) [00:20:55]? AS: (Spanish) [00:20:57]. JJ: Let’s get the light -- AS: [00:21:00] Yeah. JJ: Okay, now closer. (inaudible) today. And then this (inaudible) [00:21:16 00:21:27]. (Spanish) [00:21:28 - 00:21:34]. AS: (Spanish) [00:21:35]. JJ: (Spanish) [00:21:36 - 00:21:58]. AS: Sí. JJ: (Spanish) [00:21:58 - 00:22:00]. (laughs) AS: (Spanish) [00:22:02 - 00:22:05]. JJ: Sí. AS: (Spanish) [00:22:08 -- 00:22:13]. JJ: (Spanish) [00:22:08] -- AS: (Spanish) [00:22:14 -- 00:22:25]. 17 �JJ: Sí. AS: (Spanish) [00:22:26 - 00:22:31]. JJ: (Spanish) [00:22:31]. AS: (Spanish) [00:22:32 - 00:22:34]. JJ: Sí. AS: (Spanish) [00:22:35]. JJ: (Spanish) [00:22:37 - 00:22:41]. AS: No. JJ: (Spanish) [00:22:42 -- 00:22:45]. AS: Sí. JJ: Sí. AS: Sí. JJ: (Spanish) [00:22:48 - 00:22:52]. AS: (Spanish) [00:22:53 - 00:22:56]. JJ: There’s more rooms over here and stuff. AS: Yeah. Sorry. (inaudible). This [00:23:00] has been restored, this bathroom. JJ: Did you put on the restore. Is there a new fan in here? AS: Yeah, sí. JJ: A new light? AS: Yeah, there’s a light. JJ: (inaudible) the new part of your house. Is somebody here? AS: (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) (laughs) Crazy. 18 �(break in audio) [00:23:38] JJ: Okay. (break in audio) [00:23:56] JJ: Yeah. AS: This, [00:24:00] can you take -- can you zoom in here? This is -- (break in audio) [00:24:11] AS: -- Professor Juan and Griffith. They made all of the efforts we have, we have made here to restore this house as an example of economic development, how it should not be done. Because economic development here like in many other capitalist countries is development at the expense of displacing the (inaudible) people. So there is a movement here, too, of displacement. So this documentary takes the example [00:25:00] of the struggle we have had on order to even get loans, the little monies, and so on to preserve this house as an example of many other efforts that are being done. And it also takes the example of Puerto Ricans in Chicago; Very small but it does it. So this documentary is an effort of these professors that they were able to put it together for this like onehour documentary. And it was shown at the Interamerican University. We have a copy and since Cha Cha is so important to the Puerto Rican liberation movement, we make it available [00:26:00] as long as we give the recognition to the professors, Dr. Juan and Dr. Griffith. They are professors at the university, the State University of Arizona. They also did that with their very own resources and so on and we admire the work they did. They really did a tremendous effort because it’s not easy to convey and to be able to convey the message of the 19 �Puerto Rican diaspora, the problem of Puerto Ricans here and there. And the uprootedness and so on and it’s not very easy to document that. It’s very easy to talk about it. But in order to document [00:27:00] it visually, it’s, it took a lot of efforts. Because they had to go and film over there and so on so that’s it. (break in audio) [00:27:15] JJ: You just started with your full name, when you were born, where you were born. AS: Right. JJ: Okay. AS: Yes. Well, first of all, Cha Cha, my dearest friend that I admire so much, thank you so much for this interview. My name is America, America Sorrentini, and people call me Meca, M-e-c-a. I was born in a small, little town called Cabo Rojo, a small, little town in the southwest coast of Puerto Rico. And on October 1937 I was born. [00:28:00] Cabo Rojo is a very traditional town of Puerto Rico but still -- JJ: Traditional meaning -- AS: Traditional in the sense that really, Cabo Rojo is called the town of freedom because Ramón Emeterio Betances, the father of the independence movement of Puerto Rico, was born. And in that sense, it’s called -- am I right or something is -- M2: I was actually just hoping I could have you move forward and to your left just slightly. (break in audio) [00;28:47] AS: From Cabo Rojo, my father work, work [00:29:00] all his emotions into the 20 �Socialist Party of Puerto Rico. Like I was telling you when we were seeing the, my mother’s house. We call it my mother’s house, Casa Sofia. JJ: If I can have you -- what about your grandparents, his parents? Were they involved in the socialist movement or --? AS: Well, my grandparents on my father’s side came from Italy from Sorrento and they were bricklayers. As a matter of fact, he built the, he built the farmers market of Cabo Rojo. And then on my -- JJ: What was his name? Do you remember? AS: [Cayetano?]. JJ: Cayetano. AS: Cayetano. My father’s name is Benigno. He died in 1984 and on my mother’s [00:30:00] side, she was mix of Spanish, African, and who knows what else. (laughs) because Puerto Ricans, we are all very, very mixed and so on. So on my mother’s side, she was, she had to work what we called [ajuste?] which is that they would bring in American companies would bring in gloves and she would, she would sew them by hand by a commission and they would pay her by the dozen. And the gloves are, each one of the gloves, they were handmade and so on. JJ: This was in Cabo Rojo. AS: This was in Cabo Rojo on the -- [00:31:00] and then she worked making the handmade artisanal hats, very famous hats from Cabo Rojo. Los sombreros [pra?] they were called. So my father got involved in political movement and he founded the Puerto Rico Socialist -- 21 �JJ: Your grandfather was not involved in that. AS: Was not involved in that, no. JJ: So your bloodline -- AS: Much, much later on, yes. JJ: In Cabo Rojo or somewhere else? AS: In Cabo Rojo, yes. As a matter of fact, he’s a self-taught man like I told you before and he ran for the legislature. He won on two consecutive years and so on but he had a lot of difficulties and was not very well accepted, let’s put it this way. That he had a lot of [00:32:00] violent encounters with the Republican Turbas which were armed Republican brigades I could say. And so when he came to the Puerto Rico legislature here in the metropolitan area -- JJ: Of Santurce. AS: -- of Santurce and San Juan, the capital of Puerto Rico is in old San Juan. So he decided to move the family over here and then we rented and then we came to live here at, here at Casa Sofia in Santurce. We lived, we rented in another place because we bought this house like the old, traditional way which is by handshake. [00:33:00] My father agreed with the owner of this house which was also a self-taught man from the, from Mayagüez which is very, is a town, is a city close to Cabo Rojo. This man had -- the dream of his life was that his daughter would celebrate her 15th birthday in this house and so my father waited -- JJ: Quinceañera (inaudible) -- AS: Quinceañeras which is the equivalent of happy, sweet 16 in the United States. So he waited for those. For two years, he waited in order to move into this 22 �house. I had a lot of difficulty as you can imagine because I came from, I came from a slum in Cabo [00:34:00] Rojo which was called La Pileta. (laughs) And -JJ: What was it like there? AS: La Pileta? JJ: What do you remember there? Because you said it was a slum. AS: Well, I have very fond memories of La Pileta. JJ: What are some, what are some of the memories? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: Well, there was a big, there was a water running through and because (laughs) once then you grow older and so on. But we thought it was really neat and (laughs) wonderful. Other people thought it was not nice at all. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? AS: That you had water running in front of the house because this was open like in the, in the water that running through the town would come through La Pileta. JJ: The sewer system or the river? AS: [00:35:00] Was like a river but it was -- JJ: Okay, like a river. AS: -- it was not protected. JJ: Okay. AS: Yes. So from La Pileta -- JJ: You said you had fond memories. What kind? AS: Fine memories -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- 23 �AS: A lot of bondage with the kids and so on and it was very open and you could walk. JJ: You went to school there, you went to school there. AS: No because I was still four or five years old. JJ: Four -- okay. Okay, so now you said -- AS: But I have these very fond memories, very romantic memories of La Pileta because there was always a lot of rhythm and singing and sound, very wonderful sounds of La Pileta. JJ: The people were singing all the time or --? AS: All the time, yes. Uh-huh. JJ: What type of music? AS: Oh, musica romantica, boleros. JJ: [00:36:00] Boleros. AS: Uh-huh, yes. Bomba, plena, because there has always been an argument among the bomba and plena. Which is was it born in Ponce or la plena was born in Mayagüez? The Cabo Rojo and Mayagüez people are very regional and they say no, it was born in Mayagüez. So it was that big -- JJ: Okay, so there was a little -- AS: -- that little -- JJ: -- competition (inaudible) -- AS: -- that little competition, yes. JJ: And that bomba y plena. AS: Where was the bomba and plena born? So obviously, here, in, when I moved 24 �into this neighborhood which is, it was a very, very upscale neighborhood -- so I had a, I had a -JJ: So what, how was the, how was the, how was the -- AS: Yes. JJ: -- because you were more living in a slum in Cabo Rojo and then now, you moved to an upscale neighborhood. [00:37:00] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: Well, I move -- there was an intermediary because I move in Cabo Rojo in another, in another [barriada?], in another barrio which is a little upscale than the La Pileta. JJ: So in Cabo Rojo, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) a little upscale neighborhood in -- okay. AS: A little in regard to La Pileta. JJ: (inaudible) AS: Don’t get confused. (laughs) JJ: No, I’m not trying to get confused -- AS: It’s a little, a little upscale than La Pileta. JJ: I’m only, I was just, I’m just trying to understand the differences. AS: Yes, right. JJ: (inaudible) AS: Yeah. JJ: I’m not trying to -- AS: Yeah, so there, from there, I had a, I had a pet. I mention this because this 25 �brought me a lot of difficulties into this neighborhood because my pet was a goat. JJ: (laughs) AS: So it was not becoming at all to have a -- JJ: A goat in a city. AS: -- a goat as a pet. [00:38:00] Then we were close to the farmers market and the goat loved the farmers market. I would have to run up to Pepa to bring her in from, in from the market. JJ: Oh, you did bring the goat there. AS: Yeah, I brought her in, yeah. No, my parents let me have a goat. There is no way that as a pet, she can have her pet. And so but later on, the neighbors really understood and they embrace and they all loved the Pepa. JJ: Pepa is the name. AS: Yes. So here we are in Santurce and I say that -- JJ: What year was this? Do you know? What year? AS: This was from 1944 to 1948 was a period of Pepa. JJ: What was that like, ’44 to ’48? Because a lot of people [00:39:00] came to the United States around that time. That was right after the war. AS: Yes. JJ: So what was it like here in Puerto Rico at that time? AS: Here. Well, very, very difficult times economically and that’s why my father introduce a law in which the monies from the salt industry, salinas from Cabo Rojo, so that it sent would be used for educational purposes and so on. Because really, the economic situation was very, very difficult. 26 �JJ: Was it a big area? A big town at that time in Santurce or was it a big section or -? AS: Santurce? Yeah, it was, yeah, it was beginning, it was beginning to the sprawl of the urban development [00:40:00] was the beginning of taking place in this because this street was very traditional. They didn’t have any of these buildings. JJ: It was still country like. AS: It was country like, like this house. They had a lot of big yards and so on. They built this building over here and all these buildings and they were just houses and so on. JJ: Wooden houses or --? AS: Wooden with sink and so on. This was -- JJ: You (inaudible) fast. You got a sink -- AS: Yes. This was one of the most modern houses that were built in the area, uhhuh. As a matter of fact, the number eight that is in front of the house, it was the old Spanish demarcation of the house. [00:41:00] That’s why I still have the eight over there. And the new demarcation is 264. JJ: Okay, and what about the policies? I mean, how was it at that time, I mean, in the late ‘40s and that here considering or in Puerto Rico? AS: Yes. Well, here the Popular Democratic Party was really making a -- organizing and making an appeal to the poor conditions of Puerto Ricans. The Popular Democratic Party adopted the slogan of Pan, Tierra y Libertad. JJ: Mm-hmm. Libertad, what was that? AS: Bread, land, and liberty. 27 �JJ: What was liberty? AS: Well, because the Popular Democratic Party [00:42:00] ran with the, with its founder, Luis Muñoz Marín, promising the liberty for Puerto Rico, you see? The Popular Democratic Party was going to be a transition -- JJ: So when they say liberty -- AS: -- was going to be a party that would bring in the liberty for Puerto Rico independence party. JJ: Independence, so they actually were for independence. AS: They were for independence, yes. JJ: The Popular Democratic Party. AS: Yeah, the Popular Democratic Party. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) AS: That’s why Pan, Tierra, and Libertad. So it had a tremendous appeal on the political forces then had the Puerto Rican Independence Party. It was a very -- it was a strong, a strong force. JJ: At that time. AS: [00:43:00] At that time, yes, uh-huh. Which was under the leadership of Concepción de Gracia, Gilberto Concepción de Gracia which founded the Puerto Rican Independence Party that still exist and still is an electoral party. And still is inscribe and so on, (Spanish) [00:43:24]. Mm-hmm. So the -- JJ: So they didn’t depend on -- this is before there -- AS: I think -- JJ: -- was a governor, though. This was before there was a governor. 28 �AS: Before they was a Puerto Rican governor. JJ: And so who were the governors before? I mean -- AS: Piñero. JJ: Piñero. That was like the first -- was he the first elected or first appointed? AS: The first appointed. JJ: Puerto Rican. AS: Yes, Puerto Rican but before we got Piñero. JJ: So before that, who do we have? Who do we have? AS: Oh, we had a lot of other governors appointed by the Congress [00:44:00] and the president of the United States. JJ: But none of them were Puerto Rican. AS: None of them -- they were -- yeah. JJ: In fact, we had some generals. AS: Generals, yes. Since the 1898 and so on, we had General Miles, Tugwell, and so on. But the Popular Democratic Party really had a, had many laws that would appeal and they were really, they were really very avant-garde laws because for example, one of the laws was that there was no child without a father. In other words, that was that men had to recognize their offspring, give them names and so on, because there were a lot of rich people that [00:45:00] would procreate. Would have children, so on, and would not, would not leave their names to the children. So this was (laughs) very -- at that time, it was a very advanced law which would force the father to give the name to the children. JJ: And support -- 29 �AS: And family name, family name. JJ: Oh, family name. AS: Yes. Because they would support them but would not give the-- JJ: Wouldn’t give them their -- AS: -- their family name because the family name was very, very guarded by the fathers. JJ: By the rich, by the rich -- okay. AS: Yeah, yes. So that was one of the law. The other one was the 500 acres law which [00:46:00] is that the law would penalize if you would apply on more than 500 acres. If you would buy more than 500 acres of land and so on in order to protect the agriculture. And to also abolish the tradition in Puerto Rico of having hired help in which they would leave a new land and you have that hired help by paying very meager salaries. Because you would provide, you would provide them housing and so on. So it’s that kind of arrangement of the plantation arrangement [00:47:00] as in dollars, plantain [sic] arrangement. There was a lot of opposition to that, to the law of the quinientos acres, of the 500 acres of land, the ownership of land and so on. JJ: Mm-hmm. So let me understand it. So people were -- there was a law that you could not have more than 500 acres? AS: The Popular Democratic Party ran with that -- JJ: Oh. AS: -- those advanced laws to abolish -- JJ: To abolish that. 30 �AS: -- to abolish that, yes. Then they would also offer the land which was the parcelas to the campesinos, to the, or to the rural dwellers and so on. JJ: Whose land was this? The government has owned it? AS: Well, it was going to be [00:48:00] taken away by the law of the 500 acres. JJ: (phone rings) Okay. Hold on a second. (break in audio) [00:48:03] JJ: So you said I made it out of the 500 acres. AS: Sí. JJ: Okay. AS: (Spanish) [00:48:10]? JJ: (Spanish) [00:48:13]. AS: Uh-huh. JJ: (Spanish) [00:48:15] the (inaudible), the time, the people (inaudible). AS: Sí, mm-hmm. JJ: Okay, (Spanish) [00:48:21 - 00:48:25]? AS: (Spanish) [00:48:26] this was -- we were on that, on the development of the platform of the Popular Democratic Party. Why it really, it really grew and so on. Remember that my father was in the Socialist Party and the Socialist Party wanted, was for statehood, wanted Puerto Rico to be a state of the United States. But we didn’t [00:49:00] -- the concept of a really, of a workers’, of a workers’ state and so on. And my father initiated and with the labor movement and so on, and the federation of labor and so on, had relationships, had relationships with the United States. And the Popular Democratic Party felt that it 31 �had to -- there was no possibilities. That the Constitution of the United States would allow a socialist state. That it was a really uphill battle in order to, in order to make it. To make [00:50:00] it the proposal that the Congress of the United States would embrace. So the Popular Democratic Party called for the, for Puerto Rican election of a Puerto Rican governor with a platform of to end the plantation system, for ownership of you land, for home ownership of the land in which it developed the program of parcelas, which is very well-known in Puerto Rico. Parcelas was a very small plot of land given to the rural communities and so on. It is then franchised the (inaudible). JJ: So you’re related to the peasants, what they call peasants, los jibaros, the campos. AS: Yes, los jibaros, the campos, yes. That [00:51:00] was the strongest base of the Popular Democratic Pary was the rural areas -- JJ: Okay. AS: -- of Puerto Rico, los jibaros. So the recognition of the, of abolition all the (inaudible) benefits of a patriarchal, of a patriarchal heritage and so on in which the father had to recognize other children. So all this, all this -- JJ: So you’re taking the land, you’re taking the land with about 100 acres land law. You would take the land from the rich? AS: No, because there were landowners with huge, huge amounts of land. JJ: So the government didn’t take their land. AS: The [00:52:00] government decided this was not possible in an island was, which was 100 by 35. 32 �JJ: But then there was protests -- AS: For very few, for very few owners to own basically, own the land in Puerto Rico. So -- JJ: And at that time, they were owning a lot of land. It was very, very -- AS: Yes. Very, yes. Uh-huh. JJ: So they didn’t (inaudible) resistance or --? AS: Oh yes, yes. It took the Popular Democratic Party a lot of organizing and to develop, to develop the base. And so much so that really, they knocked out all the other oppositions. The Popular Democratic Party became the predominant force, the electoral politics. JJ: This was in the late ‘40s, it was in the late ‘40s. AS: [00:53:00] Yes, in the late ‘40s. Then in 1952, the Constitution, the Constitution of the Puerto Rican Constitution is developed and so on. JJ: So why do you think that people were -- a lot of -- (Spanish) [00:37:16], from the country, were moving then to Chicago and the Midwest and this was like that in the late ‘40s. Was it after or before? AS: Yes. JJ: So some were being exposed to those areas but they were getting land here. Why wouldn’t they stay? AS: Because they -- these were the laws. They weren’t being implemented because they are not being passed yet. There still was opposition even by mention it. They was not, it was not yet -- had not taken hold because there was [00:54:00] the 500 acres law. But then they would, they would go around the law and then 33 �another relative and so on would buy another 500 acres and so on. So it wasn’t a very straightforward victory because the ruling class of Puerto Rico, there is such a thing which is an infamous because there is really not such a thing. Because not only do we have ruling class, you have to have the political power to make -JJ: To control the (inaudible) -- AS: -- self-determination for your own. But so within that concept of being intermediaries of the capital from the United States and in Puerto Rico. [00:55:00] Still, those forces were against the 500-acre law. So we have the constitution of Puerto Rico which was under law 600 which still was opposed by the independence forces, okay? So you have developing the what we now know and identify as statehood forces, the estado libre asociado de -- JJ: So you’re identifying them as statehood forces? AS: Status quo traditional forces -- JJ: Okay. AS: -- which is the estado libre asociado [00:56:00] of the independent forces. Different concepts but within the independence. JJ: So they were really part of the independence movement but they were -- had a different concept is what you’re saying or --? AS: They were the Popular Democratic Party at the beginning runs for independence. Yeah. But they change, they change and they say -- remember, this is when Pedro Albizu Campos was struggling for the independence of Puerto Rico. And he calls on the, on Puerto Ricans to arm themselves if the [00:57:00] -- your right 34 �to become free is opposed. So this was a very confrontation, a big confrontation. And Muñoz Marín which was the first elected governor of Puerto Rico, he won by at least -- tu sabes. JJ: Landslide, landslide, slam dunk. It was a slam dunk. AS: (Spanish) [00:57:27 - 00:57:32] so because he ran with a platform of everything. Independence, freedom, social justice, you name it. So and he did a lot of work and so on. But somehow, somewhere along [00:58:00] the line, he changes and he says that that’s, that he doesn’t see it’s possible, that independence in Puerto Rico. That we should put that aside and take care of the social justice issues. And this is a very famous phrase that says que, “El estatus politico no es dying issue,” you know? The political status is not an issue in his reasoning. JJ: Oh, okay. And his reasoning? What was his reasoning? AS: That we really have to take care first about our economic development and so on and that the relationship with the United States could develop and then the estado libre asociado which is the political status of Puerto Rico. Which by the name itself is problematic because you cannot be three things at the same [00:59:00] time (laughs) to be a state libre. JJ: And libre. AS: And free and then associated so estado libre asociado is the actual recognized political status of Puerto Rico. But he promised his party, the Popular Democratic Party, he promised that the estado libre asociado would be enhanced. There would be more, that the Congress of the United States would give more powers to Puerto Rico because right now, Puerto Rico is under the Congress of the 35 �United States and it’s a special clause. So that is called [01:00:00] is a territorial clause so that Puerto Rico is not part of the United States. It’s a special clause. You can -JJ: Territory. AS: You can check it in the Congress of the United States, Puerto Rico territorial clause which is that Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States. JJ: That it’s part of (inaudible) -- AS: So that is because at the international, at the United Nations -- JJ: It’s like (inaudible) or something. (laughter) Embassy. AS: No. What happens is that at international law, Puerto Rico instead of saying it’s a colony because at international level, all colonies should have been abolished. So 19- [01:01:00] -- the United States in 1963 decides then that Puerto Rico is a territory so as not to be labeled is a colony. Because if you have a colonial status, you have to submit to the United Nations a yearly improvement of the economic status. JJ: Of the colony. AS: Of the colony. In order to abolish that, the United States said and won that international let’s say struggle until later on, we were able to publish all the independent forces. I forgot to tell you that I support independence for Puerto Rico. I forgot to tell you that; I am so sorry. JJ: Oh, we know. We know it. We know it. AS: You notice it, (laughs) yes. JJ: (laughs) (inaudible) But okay, that’ll be the expression. 36 �AS: So, we -- right. [01:02:00] But I think is the solution for Puerto Rico. JJ: And did you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) like the decolonization, for example. AS: The decolonization of Puerto Rico. Well -- JJ: I mean, in terms of the United Nations. AS: The United Nations. Well, because I was just telling you the electoral forces you were talking about because there were other non-electoral forces. The Movimiento para Independencia and the Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico who didn’t agree with the electoral process then. JJ: Yeah, what was the Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico doing then in (inaudible)? AS: Yes. JJ: When -- during the election. AS: During this, right. When all this is going on with the Popular Democratic Party, the, [01:03:00] remember Albizu Campos was studying at Harvard University. When he comes from Harvard University -- anyway, Albizu Campos, let me tell you who was the first president of the Irish Student Movement to declare -- JJ: I heard that they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). AS: -- to vote for the Irish, for the Irish, for the Irish, for one Ireland struggles. JJ: So he was president. He was president of the movement? AS: And the students name an honorary president because he really struggled for the, for the freedom of the Irish and this was at Harvard University. JJ: Albizu Campos was a leader of the Nationalist Party then at the time. AS: He was not the president, no. Because [01:04:00] he finish his study. He was 37 �studying law at Harvard University. So when he comes back to Puerto Rico, the Nationalist Party was participating in the electorate process in Puerto Rico. Yes. (break in audio) [01:04:23] JJ: -- hold onto the Albizu Campos. M2: (inaudible) AS: Albizu Campos, right. Yes. So he becomes aware that although the Nationalist Party was trying to deal with the whole electoral process in Puerto Rico. So when he comes to Puerto Rico, he says that it was [01:05:00] impossible to be able to gain in the public trust under the colonial educational system in which we had to use the textbooks from the United States and everything that would be free democratic elections. Therefore, he calls for abstention. He calls to counteract that there was not possible and a democratic election process in Puerto Rico without supervision of the United Nations and so on so -- JJ: Now, how did, how does it do this? He comes from the United States and university to Puerto Rico and then -- AS: He comes -- JJ: -- does he have a press conference in -- AS: -- and he militates [sic], he militates [01:06:00] in the Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico. JJ: So he’s -- AS: And then he is elected president. JJ: So he militates, he -- all right. He is saying this at the rallies and the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- 38 �AS: And rallies and meetings and so on and he calls -- JJ: And then they’re, are they having public meetings but I mean -- AS: Public meetings, yes. JJ: -- the Nationalist Party, where they’re with him in media all the time or --? AS: Yes and they have the following and so on, a strong following and -- JJ: They have a strong following. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). So they were on the news all the time. AS: Excuse me? JJ: They were on the news, in the news all the time. AS: Oh, yes. Of course, yes. Uh-huh, right. Because he is -- first, he -- JJ: But he’s been in public places now. AS: First, he wasn’t really very prominent and even when he came to study at the, at Harvard University, I remember that he graduated magna cum laude from Harvard. And he also had several [01:07:00] titles. He not only of law, of international law and so on. But he really studied; He was a brilliant student in chemistry and so on. He was very (inaudible). So he had a lot of respect among many different sectors. Even popularism and people in the Popular Democratic Part were Albizuistas. JJ: Albizuistas? AS: Albizuistas meaning they were for Albizu. JJ: They were for Albizu. AS: That they really supported -- JJ: So there was a (inaudible) -- 39 �AS: Yes, that there was -- JJ: Then the Popular Democratic (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: Oh yes, and there were Albizuistas and so on. And Albizuistas would really [01:08:00] -- people even from the Puerto Rican Independence Party would call themselves Albizuistas. Meaning that -- JJ: So you had him in all the parties. He was the well organizer. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: Yes. Well-organize as though he was also in the Nationalist Party. But he had a following also among many other organized sectors and within those organized sectors, there were caucuses and so on. It was really very widespread the sentiment of Albizu and calling yourself Albizuista meant that you really supported and you self-determination for the Puerto Rican people. That’s really the source of it. And he was able to, he was able to come through [01:09:00] with this sentiment and for people to wear buttons and so on with Albizu. So -- JJ: He was very dangerous to their government at that time. (inaudible) United States and (inaudible) independence and -- AS: Well, what happens is that he’s called by all means necessary was misunderstood because he was following the liberation movement of all the world. You see that you had the right, that this was the right, and that you had to defend that right by all means. Well, what happens is that it’s not the same thing to believe that when you are dealing with the United [01:10:00] States because the United States is a very, very powerful country. So you might not think so (laughs) but it’s so powerful that even though you are saying that you believe in 40 �self-determination meaning by all means necessary meaning that it’s a matter of principle, then the United States takes it literally as if you are going to immediately take a gun and start shooting. So what happens is that when Lolita Lebrón goes to the Congress of the United States, since the American people -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: -- don’t have the information of what’s going on in Puerto Rico, they think this is something where [01:11:00] did it come from? It’s like now even the presidential electoral process going on now in the United States, they don’t mention that the United States has a colony or what is a colony or why are there has, there is a need for a plebiscite because if you are organizing a plebiscite, it’s because it’s a colony. But then they don’t want to accept it’s a colony. Do you see what I mean? But then the American people don’t know nothing about this. So the same thing with law 600 in Puerto Rico. Now, what is law 600? You could say, “Well, Meca, why take time to explain the law 600?” But it’s important because this explains that the United [01:12:00] States wanted to present to the United Nations that it had abolished the colony, that it had been, it had been successful with the economic development model of the estado libre asociado. And that this was so successful that it became a law which is law 600 which is what allows the status of Puerto Rico to be recognized by the United Nations according to the United States. You see what I mean? So -- JJ: Okay. So then now, it’s -- AS: -- what happens is the Nationalist Party figures that we had to -- JJ: So the United Nations is okay with that. It’s okay with it is what you’re saying, the 41 �law 600. AS: [01:13:00] According to the United States. JJ: According to the United States. AS: Right. So then the Nationalist Party feels it was, felt it was really a, had to do something dramatic to bring to the people of the world that this was not so. JJ: So what did they do? What did they do? So (inaudible) -- AS: People inspired by the Albizu like I was telling you that there were many Albizuistas so in the Nationalist Party and other sectors. So Lolita Lebrón, Cancel Miranda, and so on, they went to the Congress of the United States and well, the United States do not accept that delegation because they themselves went [01:14:00] over there to bring about, to bring about the case of Puerto Rico to the world. And they did it with guns and shooting -- JJ: So they went inside the warehouse? Was it the warehouse or the --? AS: They went to the Congress of the United States. JJ: To the Congress and they started shooting. AS: And they started shooting. JJ: Did anyone get injured or --? AS: There was one American -- JJ: Congressmen (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: -- Congress people injured and so on. JJ: I understand that Lolita Lebrón was a threat or so? AS: And Lolita Lebrón ruptured herself in the -- first, they bought only one-way ticket because they figure they would die over there. 42 �JJ: So they knew that they would probably die. AS: Die over there. JJ: But they wanted -- it was a dramatic thing that -- AS: It was a dramatic thing to -- JJ: -- against this law 600. AS: -- against this law 600. JJ: Because they wanted to show they wanted independence? AS: That the United States [01:15:00] had not really solved the problem of the political status of Puerto Rico and that still, Puerto Rico was a colony of the United States. And that the Congress was on the jurisdiction of the Congress of the United States because all the federal laws applied to Puerto Rico. In other words, in other words, the coin, the migration, the Federal Communications Commission. Everything, you see. Even the TV in Puerto Rico have to play the American [indonacional Americano?]. JJ: (inaudible) AS: The American hymn and the Puerto Rican hymn and all the Federal Communications Commissions, all the federal laws. We also have to use the [01:16:00] United States marine trade and so on. We cannot do international trade and so on although we are in terms of -- JJ: You can only trade, you can only trade with the United States is what you’re saying. AS: -- we are the seventh-largest market of US-produced goods because that’s what we can, we have to, we buy. So it was a problem because when they do this 43 �shooting, since the American people didn’t have all the information, although there were Americans that were members of the Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico because Ruth Reynolds also was one of the pacifist, an American pacifist who understood the struggle and so on. [01:17:00] And defended the Albizu -JJ: So there were many Americans. AS: Yeah, Albizu Campos. JJ: Right there in the Puerto Rican Nationalist Party. What were you doing there? Where were you at? AS: I hadn’t been born yet. JJ: Oh, you weren’t born yet. AS: Nineteen thirty-seven because I was born in 1977. Yes. JJ: No but when they went to Washington, it was in the ‘50s. AS: Oh, in the ‘50s. JJ: Yeah, so what were you doing then? I mean, how did you feel about it then? How old were you then about? AS: I was like 9 years old, 9 or 10 years, yes. JJ: Okay, so you weren’t thinking (inaudible). AS: Yeah. Well, all I know is that we had to, we -- our father told us we have to hide. JJ: Your father said you have to hide? AS: Yeah, because he understood repression, first of all. (laughs) He knew what repression was and so on. JJ: And there was a conflict so he understood it. [01:18:00] So you talked to him about repression. 44 �AS: Oh yes. He talked about repression and -- JJ: What did he say? What did he say? AS: -- then he said, now, we are again going to have the Turbas like I told you before so this was going on, the Turbas. And he said that we have to protect ourselves and so on. Because you didn’t know how this was going to play in Puerto Rico and so on and our friends that were arrested and so on in Puerto Rico and -- JJ: They were your fathers’ friends? AS: My fathers’ friends die everywhere. You think -- you could not -- JJ: So they were arresting people all throughout (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: Yes. Also out. Also out. You didn’t -- JJ: Were there a lot of them? AS: You didn’t know who would, they would get arrested because the Nationalist Party, for example, if you be wearing black and white [01:19:00] which was the color of the Nationalist Party, you could get harassed and so on by the police and given tickets and all that kind of stuff. A lot of big, huge harassment and so forth. JJ: So did that cause you to move? Or you stayed here, you stayed in this house right here? AS: No, it didn’t cause us to move. JJ: Okay, but okay. They weren’t impacting (inaudible) your father’s side? AS: That’s right. Yes. (laughs) JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Okay, so we’re looking in the ‘50s. You’re like nine years old and you’re living in Santurce? AS: In the ‘50s, I was already now like 13. 45 �JJ: Thirteen. AS: Thirteen. Thirteen, 14. JJ: Okay, you were in school and that? AS: So uh-huh. JJ: Is your consciousness being [01:20:00] raised? Now you began to think more like your father or --? AS: Dramatically. Yes, yes. JJ: (overlapping dialogue) [01:20:04] so you were close to your father or --? AS: Yes, thinking that I was agreeing more with my siblings because they understood that statehood and socialist was not possible. And this was -- JJ: That’s right. AS: -- including the American within the United States Constitution, this was not going to be an easy struggle to accept. To accept a state that would be Spanishspeaking and then socialist. JJ: And for the workers. AS: This was really uphill and that this was not possible. JJ: So your sib- AS: And [01:21:00] my siblings were -- JJ: -- were older than you? Were older? AS: -- were older, much older. And they were for the, they decided for independence and this was and then when the most -- JJ: How many siblings did you have? We won’t even go into that. AS: The older ones were two. Two older siblings I had to make the decision of -- 46 �JJ: Boys? Girls? Hombre. AS: Uh-huh. Male and female, hombre y mujer, yeah. JJ: Male and female. Okay. And they were already with your father, or against your father, changing (inaudible) -- AS: They were for independence. They figured that that would be the best for Puerto Rico were to become independent. JJ: Were they members? Were they members of the -- AS: Of the Puerto Rican Independence Party, yes. JJ: Oh, so you were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). AS: Yes, uh-huh. Right. But when Muñoz Marín who was embracing independence and calls for this [01:22:00] social justice platform and independence, then they went with the Popular Democratic Party. And then I was forming my own opinion and so on and I was leaning toward the movimiento para independencia forces, the 1959 with Juan Mari Brás -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Juan Mari Brás. AS: Yes, developed. JJ: And were you at school at that time? Is that why you were doing -- were they in school? What was their base? AS: All over Puerto Rico. Yes, yes, uh-huh. JJ: So they were all over Puerto Rico. Okay, okay. AS: Although he initiated in Mayagüez. JJ: In Mayagüez. AS: Mayagüez. 47 �JJ: Oh, that’s where (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? AS: Uh-huh, with Eugenio María de Hostos and so on. Yes, in Mayagüez. JJ: Eugenio María de Hostos. AS: de Hostos, de Hostos. JJ: Oh, they all went at the same time? AS: Hostos, it’s a patriotic [01:23:00] feel or in Puerto Rico but -- JJ: But he was alive at that time, he was alive at that time. AS: No, he was not alive. JJ: Oh no, but he -- he inspired. AS: But he was an inspire -- they were inspired by him, by yeah. JJ: (Spanish) [01:23:14]. AS: Yeah, Betances, Hostos. JJ: Okay. AS: Yeah. And so the movimiento para -- JJ: So what did you, what did you find out about it? I mean, you know. AS: Through everywhere you would come in because they, because they -- JJ: So were okay with the movement. AS: -- they were, that they figure that what Puerto Rico needed was a movement instead of a party. That was the (Spanish) [01:23:47 - 01:23:51]. JJ: Why was that? Because were kind of -- the Young Lords went over the same side of the movimiento [01:24:00] para independencia pero -- AS: Yes. JJ: So why did, was did they look at it as more of a movement instead of a party at 48 �that time? AS: Yes, because the repressive forces, the contention of the MPI, of the movimiento para independencia, was that you would gain strength by not being disciplined to one specific party platform. And so the Nationalist Party of Puerto Rico was, had a very specific platform and also was anti-electorate who called for the abstention of the elector, elections. The movimiento para independencia said that it would embrace all forms of struggle, [01:25:00] even elections. And I’m struggle too. So the fact that it had in its platform all forms of struggle as legitimate for Puerto Ri-, for the liberation movement. That gave them a lot of broadness and it captivated a lot of young forces. The FUPI, the Federacion Universitaria para Independencia, the FUPI, it also embraced the movimiento para independencia. So -- JJ: It became a pretty broad base. AS: Very, very, very. JJ: Very all over the island, you said. AS: Yes, 1959. JJ: In the news all the time, in the media all the time. AS: In the media, uh-huh, in 1959 [01:26:00] and so on. Then it also organized in the United States. Then -- JJ: That’s right (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: -- the 1970s, right, yes. JJ: The stadium in New York and -- AS: Yes. But remember that since I was, I -- in 1964, I leave Puerto Rico and I got to 49 �different countries in the Caribbean. So in 1966, I moved to Worcester, Massachusetts, and there I (audio cuts out)) and I embrace, and I embrace the organizing model of your people. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) AS: Yeah. JJ: But so now, you joined the movimiento para independencia when? When did you join? AS: Well, [01:27:00] movimiento para independencia was 1960s. JJ: Wait is that -- did you join there? AS: It was at the -- because I was at the University of Puerto Rico which was the FUPI. JJ: Right, so you were a member of FUPI first. AS: I was involved with the FUPI. JJ: Okay. And so this automatically (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) into them. AS: No, not automatically. Not automatically because after the FUPI, I graduate in 1950-, I graduate in 1959. JJ: No, but I mean you joined FUPI automatically when you got in there so because I mean of your father’s background. AS: Not because of my father’s background because this was very controversial, my father’s background was very controversial. Wherever I was, I had to explain it over and over and over again. How would he think that United State, what was he thinking? (laughs) JJ: Yeah, exactly. [01:28:00] The people you hung around with, you had to explain 50 �about your father. AS: Yes, uh-huh. JJ: How can you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? AS: But even though it was in the books and all, they say, “What was he thinking? How could he believe -- JJ: Absolutely. AS: -- that the United States would allow this?” JJ: I understand, yeah. AS: You know, what was in the -- what was -- were -- they pick that inspiration of the federal, of the federate labor movement inspired them to think that the United States would embrace Puerto Rico as a state, as a socialist state. So this was a big, huge controversy because there are very -- JJ: So he was one of those -- AS: -- prominent figures like Santiago Iglesias, Santiago Iglesias Pantín and so on. Other people [01:29:00] who really thought that the, that the, that the movement, that the labor movement from the United States was moving toward embracing more of a social democrat and from a social democrat to a socialist state that they thought it was, it was feasible. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: But I had to, I had to really -- JJ: Explain it. AS: -- really explain it and so on. But it was, it was positive because this was, we were young, we were young idealist who wanted to embrace also the American, 51 �the American youth movement of equality [01:30:00] in the United States. JJ: For civil rights. AS: And we were for the civil rights. JJ: The civil rights movement at the time. AS: All of these positive -- JJ: This is the civil rights era, this is the civil rights era. AS: Yeah, you see, all these positive things going on in the United States, we did embrace it and we thought it was very heroic of the American people although -- JJ: So against the war. This was about the time against the war in Vietnam and that sort of -- AS: Yes. So it was like two different, like conflicting messages of a movement and of the American people making very vanguard statements and abolishing really backward like slavery and all aspects, negative aspects [01:31:00] of slavery and discrimination and rectifying historical blunders. We thought this was very, very positive and we wanted to embrace and be part of that movement in the United States. JJ: So the university was at, was the civil rights era, the Vietnam war, protesting. AS: Yes. JJ: So the university was having protests almost every day or --? Would you say that or I mean, were there a lot --? AS: Protests? This was open confrontation. This was shooting. JJ: There were shooting. AS: Oh my God, these were -- yes. This was because the National Guard of Puerto 52 �Rico which is called National Guard of Puerto Rico but it follows [01:32:00] all the structures of the -JJ: United States. AS: -- United States military. They had recruiting and huge recruiting offices right inside the university of Puerto Rico. Remember, this was, how you say, forced? Forced recruitment. JJ: Right it was the beginning -- AS: It was the time when there was -- JJ: It was -- yeah, mandatory military. Mandatory military service. AS: (Spanish) [01:32:30]. JJ: Yeah. AS: So we were against that. So there were real big, huge confrontations and really open shootings and so on -- JJ: At the university. AS: -- at the university and students -- [01:33:00] yes. JJ: Anybody got killed because of this? AS: Yes, yes. Students got killed and so on. So that on the early 1960s, I was going to Santo Domingo and to Venezuela. I was doing some research about -- JJ: For the university? Or for -- AS: We were attached to a diplomatic core to the United Nations in which they were studying the fertility of the nun and we were doing this research on a project in the Dominican Republic [01:34:00] and in Venezuela in Guyana for the Agriculture Department of the United Nations. So this was very interesting in 53 �order to, for those countries to develop their own agriculture. Because you have to prove that your land is very fertile and so on and that it should be protected. So since my husband was an expert on soils so we went to those countries for that. JJ: And your husband’s name at that time was what? AS: James Blaut. JJ: James Blaut. AS: James Blaut. He did research. And then in, then in, later on, we went to Venezuela because we [01:35:00] were involved with the project because he was, he develop, with some grants, develop a project in which we would counteract the Piaget [-lo?] of development, of child development. Because Piaget says that there are developmental stages of children and that children cannot be introduced to aerial photography until they are seven and eight years old and so on. We got involved and very excited with that kind of research of perception that children at that very age can read maps and when they are three years old and so on. Since I was trained as a psychologist, I did the research and so on to provide that the children can read maps at a very early age. [01:36:00] So that took me to 19- -- we were at the College of the Virgin Islands [sic] in 1964, 1960-, until 1966. Then I got to Worcester, Massachusetts. JJ: Did you go through work or right, straight to the Worcester? AS: Worcester. JJ: Worcester? AS: Worcester from the Virgin Islands. 54 �JJ: And so that was a university, too, there or you went to the --? AS: From the -- excuse me? JJ: From the Virgin Islands you go to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: From the Virgin Islands to Clark University -- JJ: Clark University? AS: -- because they ask my husband, yeah. Then I, we decided to go to Worcester. JJ: Okay. And he was -- was he teach, was he teaching there or --? AS: He was a director of the research at the -- he was a professor. He was a director of Caribbean research, yes. We have some encounters there with Rockefeller. And [01:37:00] whenever you have encounters with Rockefeller, you basically lose. (laughs) JJ: Okay, so which Rockefeller is it? AS: Nelson. JJ: Nelson Rockefeller. Okay, the direct confrontation. AS: Yes because he had a concept of conservation different than ours. He owns a lot of land in the Virgin Islands and his concept of conservation, we didn’t agree with it. JJ: What was his? What was yours? AS: His concept of conservation is you acquire the title of the property and then you do the conservation. And we thought that it’s, it doesn’t work with us. The land has to be owned by the people, it has to be public owned and the -- JJ: Public domain, public land. AS: Yeah. Then [01:38:00] that -- 55 �JJ: I see, so he wants to make money (inaudible). AS: That public, the fact that you own the land, you should conserve it. It’s your land, it’s your resources. But it’s a different concept of private ownership. It’s a very difficult although he had some wonderful, beautiful ideas for the conservation, for all the, for everything. But these are gigantic people have a lot of money and resources. It was -- JJ: So anyway, you said that when you were faced with Rockefeller, you’d lose. AS: Well, because you have to publish reports and then they force, they want your reports to be private. My husband would not allow that. JJ: To gain way. AS: Because if you are an academic and you [01:39:00] do some research, let’s say you do this and then you go to the university and they say that belongs to us, that’s it. If you agree with it, you give it to them. But if you have the concept that -- JJ: Right. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: -- no, no, no, this is my copyright, this is mine. And the people gave me this information because they trusted me. It is the same thing. So then the report, you make it public -- JJ: Right, it should be public. AS: -- because you owe it to the public that gave you the information. It’s a different concept. They figure that since they believe that the whole thing is private but then you are like a slave to them -- JJ: So we’re going to make sure that Grand Valley is not a Rockefeller. (laughs) 56 �Grand Valley State University, [01:40:00] technical university. (laughter) AS: It’s true, it becomes, it’s everywhere. JJ: We got to make sure, we got to make sure -- AS: Some places, the more sophisticated than others and so on. JJ: That’s a good point. AS: So when I signed this, I signed it to Cha Cha because I’m giving this, all this effort and information because Cha Cha has sacrificed himself and has given everything to the people so I am giving it back. The little I have contributed, I’m giving it back to you. So -- JJ: That’s right, I got to make sure I keep it with the people. AS: (laughs) JJ: I appreciate it. AS: Right? It’s very humble but it’s all we can do. JJ: No, I appreciate that it’s your neck, it’s your neck. It’s your right. AS: Yes, right, so -- JJ: I appreciate that. Making it clear. AS: (laughs) Just in case, right. So when you [01:41:00] have difficulties with them, we ended up, we said, “Well, this is as far as -- we are taking the report. We are publishing.” JJ: And I appreciate it because this is my first research project so I got to learn how it goes. (inaudible) AS: Yes. Well, that’s how it really works and it really -- we had problems in the Dominican Republic because they, the same thing. They wanted the reports to 57 �be private and we said no way, no way. Because you are using us to get information from the people to trust us and the confidentiality and they are trusting you something that you don’t know what is the use of that. Then later on, we found out that we were doing this and that [01:42:00] the Heinz company that produces, that they were producing the tomatoes, ketchup -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: -- it’s wonderful. These are wonderful people, okay, but they have their own agenda. Therefore, you have to from the beginning, you have to be honest about it and straightforward. It’s public domain. It belongs to the people. Therefore, you are an academician, you are this and you are that but hey. I’m the property of the intellectual production of the people. JJ: Okay. Now, you said you went, you were looking into the Young Lords. AS: Right, Worcester. JJ: What got you into the Young Lords? I mean, how did you start? AS: Yes. Well, I [01:43:00] started organizing in Worcester. The Puerto Rican community was very close to the Clark University and Clark University like most urban American universities, they outgrow their main buildings and they outgrow and they keep on growing and then they displace the neighborhood around them. Usually, it’s poor people. And in this case, were Puerto Ricans they were displacing at Clark University. I organized the Puerto Rican community. It didn’t go well with Clark University (laughs) but I started organizing the Puerto Rican community. JJ: Was it a housing question at that time? Well, [01:44:00] it was displacement at 58 �that time. AS: Well, the university wanted to acquire some buildings and so on and -- JJ: And the community was fighting it? AS: -- and then the community was struggling to say not fighting it but struggling with the university to with a new concept of interaction because we feel that if you’re going to be talking about sociology, you don’t have to displace the people that you are teaching your students to study. I mean, this is ridiculous. We think. We think that if they, if Puerto Ricans were living among them, then the students can learn why are Puerto Ricans coming here? I mean this is migration, this is international law, this is all kinds and this is something that the students should be interested. Why are there Puerto Ricans still coming here and they get from the bus [01:45:00] and they can’t vote? The university should teach them and say something is going on because these are people who speak a different language and all that and they come in right away from the airport and they can’t vote. Hey, something going on, right? So I organized the Puerto Rican community and over there, I found some very wonderful organizers, women organizers. JJ: Who were some of the women organizers? AS: Lydia, Lydia Reyes. She and her husband, Edwin Reyes, Edwin Reyes. Edwin Reyes was, he still is, he is still organizing. He is the brother of Edwin Reyes and Edwin Reyes, there is a documentary [01:46:00] about him, a tremendous poet and organizer. He organized the people of Loíza. He was very, very well-known organizing effort in Loíza because the government went with tractors and really 59 �wiped out the whole community and their houses and everything because these were the, these were the -- oh, it was a, it was a village they built on the wrong how do you call that? JJ: You mean a company village? AS: Like a little (Spanish) [01:46:50] they organized. JJ: A (Spanish) [01:46:51]. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) AS: They rescued the land and everything. JJ: Oh, yeah. [01:47:00] AS: Rescatadores they call it. JJ: Is that kind of set in -- AS: Settlers? You say? Settlers? JJ: Settlers, yeah. Homestead or something. Homestead. AS: Settlers? Yes. JJ: They settled that area. They took it from the people. AS: These were settlers of land that hadn’t been used for 50 or 60 years and there was a little community who settled there. JJ: They reclaimed the land, basically. AS: Yes. JJ: Okay. (inaudible) AS: They bulldozed, they bulldozed that area and so on so and Reyes was very famous of that area, yeah. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) AS: So Edwin Reyes -- 60 �JJ: Squatters, they were squatters. AS: Oh. JJ: They were squatters in the land and then they came and bulldozed it and took them out. AS: We call it rescatadores. JJ: Rescatadores. AS: Which is better. (laughs) JJ: Rescatadores is better? It’s got a little ring to it. AS: Yeah, rescatadores, uh-huh. And so -- JJ: So Edwin Reyes was part of it and he -- AS: Yes. JJ: -- and he comes from -- AS: -- from [01:48:00] Worcester. Yes. And the children of Lydia were, eran Lords. JJ: Oh, they were? AS: Lords, eran Lords, Young Lords. JJ: Young Lords. So then (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: They were, uh-huh, Young Lords. And -- JJ: And we got in and then we were connected or husband and wife? AS: Yes. They were husband and wife. JJ: Okay, so this was the Young Lords. AS: Then we were, we were then organizing and they were, when they came in, they really look like you, Cha Cha. JJ: Yeah. 61 �AS: These kids. (laughs) JJ: Like me? Yeah, no, (inaudible. AS: Yeah, and everything. JJ: (laughs) AS: They said, “Well,” in a meeting, they said -- JJ: (Spanish) [01:48:42] -- AS: They said, they said, “Well,” in the meeting, they said -- JJ: (Spanish) [01:48:42] -- AS: They said, in the first meeting we were having, I am there. I am really from the old school. [break in audio] And then when they see me and they see me, [01:49:00] “Is this your organizer?” (laughter) They see me with blue eyes and blond and all that and then they come here. But they were really, they were really about to take the whole world. And then I come over there and then they say, “Is that it? Is that it? Is she the one we’re going to talk to?” Yeah. (Spanish) [01:49:32]. Yeah. It’s, “Well --” “Well, I recommend the first thing we’re going to do is that we’re going to take over the building where your husband work. You want to do it?” “Let’s do it.” And he says, “Not so bad at all,” (laughs) and he said, “But we’re going to do it the way I say.” (laughs) So we started there the story, [01:50:00] the Young Lords. JJ: Did you take over the building? Did you take over -- AS: Oh, we took it over. Yes. JJ: This was a school building. AS: A school building. 62 �JJ: Oh, so you took over a school building? Okay. AS: Yeah. But -- JJ: You were taking the spirit of the Young Lords. AS: Oh, yes. JJ: (laughs) AS: We said, “Hey.” JJ: They were from Worcester, Worcester, Massachusetts. AS: Worcester, Massachusetts. You won’t believe the influence you had, you see? Because when one is in the struggle, one doesn’t, one cannot figure out one, how far -- JJ: But we were getting, we were getting influenced by the movimiento para independencia. AS: Para independencia, right. JJ: So we were getting influenced by each other. AS: By each other, right. JJ: So it was good. AS: But the tactics were very good because here in Puerto Rico, there are certain big no-nos that you don’t do. But Young Lords had no no-nos. (laughter) You see what I mean? They said no, no, no, no. And I said, “Well,” and I said, “Well, [01:51:00] we go halfway, okay?” Said, “We go halfway.” First, we’re going to do it this way. I love my husband. And nothing can happen to him. Do you understand? We understand each other. But he can take care of himself. He is 6’-something. I said, “No, no, no. I don’t want anything to happen to him, but I 63 �don’t want anything to happen to anybody here. That’s impossible.” He said, “No. We won’t go any farther unless we (inaudible).” And they say, “Whatever, we are -- nothing happens to anybody.” I’ll tell you what, and then they would come out. We have these, we have this structure and so on. And that’s how I learn -JJ: And that’s the spirit of the Young Lords. We’ve always done that. AS: That’s right. JJ: We never jumped on people. AS: That’s right. But you see, I will challenge them in public because if I don’t do that, then the other people won’t come with me. Then they would listen [01:52:00] to them, to the -- JJ: So you were doing an insider job. AS: Yes. JJ: (laughs) AS: Because this was very young kids, very young. But they had been trampled, they knew what discrimination was, they have been spitted up. They really knew what repression was about, you see? They really knew how the American system worked and they had the skills and hey had the know-how and they had the special, the special flavor for the other youngsters. For the other Puerto Rican youngsters that were coming. They were like the rich because I was very formal. (inaudible) Cha Cha, [01:53:00] you see? (laughs) And my husband was professor over there. I would come and tell him. I said, “Hey, we have to -- we’ll go up to here.” But I’m going to do that make them believe. You do the rest. 64 �Okay. But who knows? You never see my embrace, all of us. And then they would tell me, “You poor thing. You don’t know. I’ll teach you.” That these people do not really believe that all people are really equal. I would say, “These people are principled. These people in academia are principled. I’m going to prove it to you.” They would tell me, “I will prove it to you that they are not.” JJ: At the university? AS: This [01:54:00] struggle, this struggle, and it took over the building. It was like they said because we knew better, right? But it was like they said. But we still gave the universities a space to correct themselves, to rectify. Correct, I don’t know. That’s not the right word. To rectify. Because they said they didn’t discriminated against Black or Latinos but then they didn’t want to make any allowances in order to bring in and to open the enrollment. We call, it says, “Well, we have to have open enrollment. No way.” So each issue, they proved they were right. So and the [01:55:00] people, hey, the people said they know what they’re talking about. The university, they took over the building and the people were still inside and we would take food. Inside and all that and we put in the demands that they had to take more Latinos and Blacks and so on and we were against the Vietnam War and the right we had to protest. Everything. But what happens? They called the police, the whole thing, the whole bit. What happened? Even though my husband was the one that had published the most, an academically outstanding scholar and all that, they finish his contract. He had no tender. Then we would discuss this in the community and then the people, [01:56:00] the Young Lords would say, “(Spanish) [01:56:02 - 01:56:06].” 65 �(laughter) Say yeah, he’s going to be kicked out. Did we say so? Did we say that the university was so arrogant that they won’t allow for, they won’t allow for the enrollment to change it? They would have a, they didn’t change the admissions? It had to be straightforward by test? They didn’t even accept that test were biased against gender and poor. They didn’t accept that. They didn’t accept none [01:57:00] of those things. So this was, this was a real schooling about what really academia is about. And that this was a very wonderful experience for all of us. Still, we opened the university among the artists and so on. The university open and embrace the community but this were sectors within the university. The administration and all that -JJ: Remained the same. AS: -- bureaucracy, they remained the same. JJ: They did open some sectors, right? AS: We did open. The theater open to the and we made the, we organized the presentations and everything and the student really loved it and so on. So in Worcester, then we came to, we came to [01:58:00] the University of Illinois because my husband really think like Ivy school universities. Although he taught in Yale and he did like it. He did like the Ivy school -- JJ: The Ivy League, right. AS: -- the Ivy League schooling. JJ: Right. AS: So -- JJ: And you went to the University of Illinois. 66 �AS: We went to the University -- uh-huh, state university. JJ: Circle campus. AS: Circle campus. JJ: But you didn’t, you weren’t aware that that university had a, the Italian community and the Mexican community. AS: We were. JJ: You were aware? AS: We were aware, yes. JJ: Oh, okay. All right. AS: Yes, we were aware and we immediately started organizing the minute we went over there. JJ: So you hit the floor running -- AS: Yeah. (laughter) JJ: -- like they say about it. AS: Yes. JJ: So you were aware. That’s pretty great. (inaudible) AS: Uh-huh, right. JJ: A lot of people there, we were trying to make people aware of that -- AS: Yes. JJ: -- [01:59:00] and so that they learn, recognize. AS: Yes. JJ: But so he was teaching there? And what, he was teaching research studies or -? 67 �AS: He was geography and anthropology. JJ: Geography and -- AS: He had a PhD in geography and anthropology from Louisianna State University. JJ: But then you started working in the community, too, there, right? AS: Right, yes. JJ: As a Puerto Rican Socialist Party or no? AS: Well, we -- I found, yeah, I was one of the founding members -- JJ: In Chicago. AS: -- in Chicago. JJ: Connected to Puerto Rico? AS: Yes. Uh-huh, yes. JJ: Okay. Were you a member in Puerto Rico? Well, that’s -- AS: No because I was in Worcester. I was organizing in Worcester. JJ: But you decided to do the Socialist Party but this time, it wasn’t like your father’s or --? AS: Puerto Rican Socialist Party is -- JJ: Is different? AS: -- pro-independence. JJ: Is pro-independence. AS: Independence, yes. JJ: But was it similar to your father’s or no? AS: In terms of social justice, yes. JJ: Okay, but it wasn’t the same party, it wasn’t the same -- 68 �AS: No, no, not at all. JJ: So it was another party. AS: Yes. Uh-huh. JJ: Because I remember you had -- AS: The Puerto Rican Socialist Party [02:00:00] is a, the movimiento para independencia -- JJ: Oh, turn -- AS: -- decides, decides that it should become a -- JJ: A smaller bank area. AS: -- a Marxist/Leninist party. JJ: Right, at that time. At that time. AS: Then in 1970s, in 1971, it’s the Puerto Rican Socialist Party adopts -- JJ: So okay, so it wasn’t the movimiento para independencia first and then -- AS: Yes. JJ: -- in 1971. AS: Yes. Then the movimiento para independencia keeps on organizing. In 1959 in Puerto Rico. Then in the ‘70s, they start a -- they got influenced by the internationalist movement and then -- JJ: They become more Marxist/Leninist? AS: -- then yes. JJ: [02:01:00] Publicly, publicly. AS: Yes. That was -- JJ: Everyone was kind of reading those things at the same time. 69 �AS: Yes. (laughs) JJ: But publicly, they didn’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: But publicly then they, yes, it becomes with the whole structure of the Marxist/Leninist party. And then -- JJ: But not, not, all of a sudden, but it was a little different because it was -- AS: Independent, we had independent -- JJ: The Young Lords came, the Young Lords looked at Mao Zedong or -- AS: Yes. JJ: -- and you were a little bit more what? AS: An independent. We had an independent -- JJ: An independent -- AS: -- international line. JJ: Independence (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: Independent and not (inaudible), not Maoist and so on. JJ: I don’t remember the independent. Okay, so it was more, more -- AS: Yes, because the Cold Wars that in a colonial -- JJ: And actually, we became (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: -- that in a colonial -- JJ: But we didn’t go that deep into it. AS: Yeah. JJ: Except our leaders. Some leaders that belonged to it. AS: Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, no, the movimiento para independencia studied, [02:02:00] studied the -- 70 �JJ: We were more, we were more -- AS: -- movement and so on and MPI really visited the China and Vietnam and many other places as someone who was -- JJ: So they were more abroad than -- AS: It was studied and so on and that. Then on the ‘70s, and then it’s founded that -- JJ: Because everybody kind of divided in different ways and it was better to. Because MPI was better at (inaudible). Because it was abroad. It didn’t go everywhere. AS: Everywhere, yes. JJ: Whereas (inaudible) every time. AS: Because in Puerto Rico, it was decided it was the best because it was also an anti-colonial movement. Because we had to gain the independence of Puerto Rico. JJ: Well, that’s what we have now, it’s anti-colonial. AS: Yes. JJ: It’s anti-colonial (inaudible). AS: Yes, uh-huh and we are -- JJ: Not that I’m a (inaudible), I’m not (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). AS: Yeah. JJ: (laughs) AS: Yeah, [02:03:00] we got involved with the American Left because the American Left had, was influenced highly by a traditional Marxist/Leninist party and -- JJ: It was from the ‘30s kind of. It was like a fight against the ‘30s, wasn’t it, in some 71 �way. AS: Well, because they followed the line that liberation movement was anti-worker and that it was more important the workers’ movement versus the liberation movement. We thought that it was wrong first to put it that way that there was no such thing as one thing or the other because we did research and we did publish why [02:04:00] you would be in the best interest of workers, of Puerto Rican workers, to gain the political status first. JJ: Because what I remember is there was a lot of flags and stuff I remember. Red flags. Was it red flags or --? AS: Yeah. JJ: But they had a lot of rallies in Chicago at that time and that’s when we started working together. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) to be closer to that because we just felt that anybody that was for independence was (inaudible) so we wanted to work with them there. AS: Well, what happened is because I came from the Young Lords -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: -- in Worcester how -- JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: -- it helped us a lot to understand what we were going through. JJ: Chicago was a new area for the Puerto Ricans. AS: Right. JJ: It was a new -- we weren’t -- we weren’t active as a people. That was the first -[02:05:00] we were in a gang before. You know what I mean? So we were just 72 �becoming activists and so the movement was small. We made less compared to the West Coast and East Coast. It grew, it grew -AS: But it’s important, it’s important because what you did in Chicago, you really had tremendous repercussions in Chicago. What happens is that the anti-liberation forces in the United States was always bringing in the wrong information because you don’t control the news communication system. So although there were many, there [02:06:00] were a lot of Americans who would support the anticolonial movement of Puerto Rico as a matter of principle, the news media was never able to project that. But the fact that you put in the, in your demands independence for Puerto Rico and you tie it in with the social justice for Puerto Ricans in the United States and the liberation of the Puerto Rican political prisoners, believe me, this was very, very important. It was so important that the Congress of the United States, Congress of the United States allotted 37 different lines in the budget to counteract it. [02:07:00] Imagine if it was important. JJ: Thirty-seven different lines. I didn’t look into that. That’s pretty good. AS: Yes, it’s pretty good, you see what I mean? JJ: (laughs) AS: Why is that? Why is that? Because this is very powerful. For Puerto Ricans in the United States to adopt the fact that part of their civil rights struggle is the liberation of their homeland, this is powerful and the United States government knows that. (laughs) So at any cost, they had to eliminate -- JJ: I don’t know if I should be content or worried (laughs) that they had 37 pieces of 73 �their budget. I don’t know if I should be happy or worried by that -AS: You should be happy and worried. JJ: (laughs) At the same time. [02:08:00] (laughter) AS: Happy and worried. But not worried but concerned, the fact that it’s -- you have to figure out that something is going on where there is so much struggle going on in Puerto Rico and nothing is mentioned. As a matter of fact -- JJ: I think it was because we were hanging out with Meca and we were -- AS: (laughter) Obama, as a matter of fact, even Obama, he let in all those people come over here. And the electoral process in the United States doesn’t get mentioned at all basically, you know? So it’s amazing. So this powerful formula when you people call for that, there were a lot of forces trying to interfere so [02:09:00] that you and our forces would not get together at all cost, Cha Cha, at all cost. They placed agents in, at the PSP headquarters, they placed agents, you name it. I mean, this was amazing. They killed one of our comrades, Cintrón, Cintrón Ortiz. Not only knew how but he -- JJ: What year was this? AS: -- was a professor at the University of Illinois, Rafael Cintrón Ortiz. What did the political forces and the police say when he was killed? They said, “Oh, this is a faction between the PSP. One that support struggles and the other one that doesn’t support struggles within the PSP.” Imagine how. [02:10:00] The American students don’t have an idea, Cha Cha. They don’t have idea that this things are going on. They just go to school and they go along with the books they assign to them and reading. But they don’t have, they don’t have access 74 �and these are public documents. You can read them. They can access it. They can go to the internet and access all these intelligence community politics. You’ll see those intelligence, the intelligence police other things. You read and they tell you this day is a Puerto Rican commemoration day. Everybody on the lookout, “Hey, you’re a student. You’re brilliant. You know what that means, right?” [02:11:00] (laughs) If you give to all the police departments a memo and they say Puerto Rican [break in audio] pro-independence holidays, “Hey, what’s that? Is that love? What’s that?” That has a meaning, you see what I mean? So Rafael Cintrón Ortiz was a very unitary figure and was giving on a volunteer basis and through the university and independent courses about the Puerto Rican family and importance of the Puerto Rican family to be able to decide the political status of Puerto Rico. He was finishing writing the thesis for New York University. I mean, and he was found [02:12:00] bound with an electric cable on his apartment. The director of the Latin American Studies program, when he didn’t show up, he went over there and found him with another colleague of his, found him dead there. The police, what was the police, Chicago police, saying? You perhaps are not aware of the Chicago police. Are you aware of how the Chicago police works? I’m going to tell you. JJ: A little bit, a little understanding. (laughs) AS: A little bit? I’ll tell you. We, Cha Cha, had to, we had to hide ourselves. We have to what it’s called sumergirse, how would you say that? We had to submerge? JJ: You went underground. 75 �AS: I mean, we had to because this was a guy who had been killed and then the police was saying -- JJ: You went underground in Chicago. You were not with the group. AS: Everywhere we went. JJ: I mean [02:13:00] you went underground. AS: We, yes. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- AS: We have to sumergirno, we had to submerge, yes. JJ: The Young Lords went underground, too. AS: Yes, because it was impossible. We didn’t know what was going on and with this, with this announcement, radio announcements, of a sector of the PSP being for arms struggle and this was -- JJ: That they were treating you, asking people. AS: It was an inside, it was an inside job. The one was killing the other, you know? JJ: Yeah, right. Yeah, they were asking people with (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), yeah. AS: So this was -- JJ: So they were creating divisions (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) also like -- AS: Sure, claro. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) between the Chicago Young Lords and the New York Young Lords. AS: Right, and they were successful. JJ: And the Panthers, the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- 76 �AS: And the Panthers. JJ: -- Panthers and the New York Panthers. AS: Same tactic. JJ: Same tactic. AS: Same tactic. JJ: SDS was divided -- AS: Divided. JJ: The Yippies were divided. The Yippies were divided. AS: Divided, right. JJ: So they’d infiltrate [02:14:00] the housing. That was their tool. AS: Yeah. What happened then to us here? The same thing so -- JJ: So it wasn’t their intent to -- AS: Yes, right. Now, of course, one can always keep on organizing. What we did is we said, “Hey, we are going to,” when we found out what was happening, then we came and gave our statements and so on. But what happens is that the parents, Puerto Rican parents are very traditional. If something happens to you, they go to your mother. Your poor mother, what is she going to say? The mother of Rafael Cintrón Ortiz, they went to her and the poor, then they told her that he was homosexual. That then, that’s what happened. Then they changed. JJ: And (inaudible), and [02:15:00] that was a part of the discreditation campaign anyway. And that they were trying -- and that homosexuality is a -- it sounds like they’re being more concerned that they’re straight but they’re trying to find out ways to discredit and then gay was used. 77 �AS: Right. First it was like announced like a struggle between -- JJ: Two forces. AS: -- two forces between the PSP. But then -- JJ: But now they’re homosexual and maybe he’s into drugs or something else. AS: Then is that the, he was hanging around with the wrong crowd and this were a passion, a passion crime. Then the poor, the -- she accepted that she wasn’t going to do anything. She wasn’t going to do research. You know, let’s say that you haven’t done your papers and say, let’s say you haven’t written anything in your papers, all right? Well, then if your legal wife is the [02:16:00] one that decides for you. That’s why you should write down what, if anything happens to you, what you should do. You should give it to somebody that you trust and you should leave it in writing what to do. What happened with her? Since he didn’t write that down, he didn’t write anything down. So when the mother comes, she decided. She decided not to have any investigation because she was suffering so much and she accepted the version of the police. JJ: Right. We’re having the same, we had the same problem with Reverend I think it was Johnson, when he was murdered. The family, they respected the family. They didn’t want to do anything about it. They just wanted to forget about it and that was it. AS: That was it. JJ: Here, he was stabbed 17 times and his wife 9 times. He’s the [02:17:00] reverend of the United Methodist Church and so it’s a similar situation. AS: Similar, yes. 78 �JJ: Because other people were not political and don’t understand the repression, that’s what happened. AS: Do you have your written statement? JJ: (laughs) AS: Huh? JJ: (inaudible) I’m going to have to write it down. AS: Write it down because one has to write it down. I always say because -- JJ: We’ll we’re writing it down now. AS: -- with this experience, with this experience, believe me. Then later on, the police, they apprehended two kids: one adult and then a youngster. The adult, they said he was crazy and the youngster was a youngster. He could not testify. That’s how they dealt with a crime. You know Chicago police, right? That’s how they dealt with a crime. So it’s the repression [02:18:00] is there. JJ: So they still haven’t found out what happened to him. AS: No. Nothing but then -- JJ: They said they would throw sentences -- AS: -- with the adult, with the adult, he was crazy. JJ: They were saying he was crazy. AS: And the youngster were, he couldn’t testify. He was young and so -- JJ: What other forms of repression were they using at that time with movimiento para independencia of Puerto Rico? You said that they infiltrated, they infiltrated the -- AS: All kinds. Shootings through the Claridad, they went to Claridad, they bomb the newspaper Claridad and they went, the director Figeroa, Domingo Figeroa, who 79 �was there, he even had to defend himself and he was shooting at them and they put bombs under his car. I mean, all kinds of repression. They killed [02:19:00] other the leadership in the labor movement that were the, for independence. They bombed the, a little school, Montessori school we had for kids. I mean, they really went all out on a very, on a repression at all levels. They visited the work, workplace of militants of the movimiento para independencia y, and PSP and -JJ: Puerto Rican Socialist Party. AS: Sí, Puerto Rican Socialist Party and so on. We then embrace, the Puerto Rican Socialist Party [02:20:00] embraces the electoral and participates in the electoral process. We registered the top leadership that Juan Mari Brás will run as governor and so on. We did that in order to open up another, another space. It was really very confrontational and so but we were able to move to register the party and all that. It was a very, it was a very good experience and so on. But like the organizations, we had a lot of Cubans anti-revolutionary forces. Cuba said their name because the Department of [02:21:00] State that moves in Puerto Rico. The United States Department of State decides who gets visas, who comes in Puerto Rico. (laughs) JJ: They’re using immigration now as a tool. AS: So they have always used it. Then they, and then there were all of a sudden, in Puerto Rico were thousands and thousands and thousands of anti-revolutionary forces. At the same time that we were the organizing the MRCCS party and this was, it was a big confrontation. They had the, the Cuban forces had here very 80 �well organized, very well organized people. [02:22:00] With right wing to the -- I mean, they were the Alpha here, the Omega. I mean, they were here planting bombs and everything so it was a big, huge, big, big, big confrontation so -JJ: Bombs against the independence movement? AS: Well, they said there were, they were against communist takeover of Puerto Rico you could say. JJ: Even though they were Cuban and this was a Puerto Rican movement. AS: Yes, uh-huh. That they have come a long way here to embrace the American system and they weren’t going [02:23:00] to allow this to be independent. (laughs) So it’s, so they had to struggle a lot to come to a place where they would have United States citizenship. JJ: It’s interesting. The government is using displacement and they’re using manipulation and they’re using a lot of these things to destroy aggressive movement. Is that what they’re saying? Or -- AS: What happens is -- JJ: -- I don’t want to put words in your mouth. (laughs) AS: Yes. Uh-huh. No, you have a way of phrasing things very simple, straightforward and I go around, right. (laughter) Well, these are well-organized, right-wing Cuban forces who anyway really came here because they wanted the American dream and they wanted [02:24:00] the American citizenship. This is a country that has US citizenship and speaks Spanish. It allows them a privilege status which is the status Cubans have which is political. So the fact that they have this status of a people, a people looking for political freedom, they have a 81 �special status. That special status allows them to get welfare and work at the same time. That political status allows them to get scholarships and work at the same time. That political status brings a lot of benefits. That’s why they still want it. [02:25:00] They don’t want the economic status like other immigrants have; They want the -- then they are escaping a dictatorial regime that their life is at stake. Therefore, they’re given that privilege of political status but that privilege means a lot of money because if you are getting welfare, let’s say, for six years, a decent time. You’re taking (inaudible) aid and all those benefits at the same time, you can also work making a lot, making incomes and monies. It’s really very beneficial for that community so that’s why there are other communities fighting for that status, too. They [02:26:00] haven’t got it but they are still struggling to be. The American student is really up in the air. They don’t understand what’s going on. They think they are being very nice. Do you see what I mean? They feel that wow, we have all these Cubans still in here, we have all these Latinos except they don’t differentiate. (laughs) Do you see what I mean? They say, “Oh, wow, we have these Latinos who are living in all these scholarships. Wow.” They figure they are doing the right thing. But they don’t on the other hand what it is that they are doing. JJ: I just want to finish it up more or less but I want to make sure that we get this because you did some work with the Young Lords in Chicago [02:27:00] and you also, I didn’t go into Lincoln Park camp. But you also, before that, that did you go to some of the demonstrations? And also if you can talk a little bit about Westtown Concerned Citizens, the work that you told me earlier. Then which of it 82 �is ours? AS: Well, in Chicago, Chicago is a very, very, very exciting city in the United States and it’s really has brought about changes all over the world starting from the Haymarket. So that we admire Chicago long before we (laughs) went over there and we really celebrate the heroic stand of the eight hours. I don’t know why isn’t [02:28:00] studied more in Chicago because this was truly heroic stand and that the workers all over the world commemorate May 1st, Dia de Trabajador, and the United States have a way of putting things. I don’t understand it. El Dia de Trabajador, Workers’ Day, and then they come in and put Labor Day. JJ: Labor Day is the workers’ day, yeah. It changes. It changes. AS: It changes from workers’ day to Labor Day. (Spanish) [02:28:34], I said oh my God, this is amazing but they managed to do it. So when we went there, we organized the community. The first thing I did was to counteract the census [02:29:00] terminology. The United States Census classified Puerto Ricans as stock and when I saw that -- JJ: Stock? AS: Stock. In other words, when you would choose the denominations and then for Puerto Ricans, they had Puerto Rican stock and you could -- JJ: Oh, we’re stock? AS: Stock. JJ: Okay. AS: You can check this through the US Census and different forms they have and so on. So this was the first thing that stuck (laughter) when I went over there. 83 �Because we always studied the census because it gives you an idea, right? Of the census, what the population is and so on. So I got the form and immediately that I got this form, I said, “What? Jesus.” I thought Worcester [02:30:00] was backwards (laughs) but Chicago, that was -JJ: It was very bad. (inaudible) (laughs) -- AS: That was something else. So we developed there with other Puerto Ricans a first census, a first census. Yeah, I got involved with that and so on. From there, when we, we decided that we had to develop our own grassroots, communitybased grassroots organization of empowerment and we created the Westtown Concerned Citizens Coalition. Other organizations reach out which is for housing and so on. I founded many other organizations like the freedom [02:31:00] of the Nicaraguan people and El Salvador and solidarity with other Latin Americans. JJ: So you were part of that development or --? AS: Yes, uh-huh. We organize with the Chicanos, the Casa, la El Mandal General de Trabajadores with the undocumented workers. With Casa, with Julio Sano and so on. JJ: Julio Sano. AS: Yes, yes. So it was very, it was, it was very, very good organizing but we were not able to bring in the Young Lords as an organization. We didn’t understand what was happening. We were never able to understand it. There was (inaudible) and there was the uptown people’s clinic and law center and [02:32:00] obviously (inaudible) and so on. So we made the decision, perhaps it was the wrong decision, that we would, we only had resources for Westtown. 84 �We said, “Well, maybe we can just be effective here in Westtown and we should not organize.” All the other ones, we would give solidarity and so on. But it was so overwhelming in Chicago. It was so, and it was so difficult to organize in Chicago because it’s so segregated, Chicago. It was amazing. We had to fight the federal laws of housing. We were [02:33:00] involved in laws right and left, Cha Cha. This is something that community organizing, well, I think it’s a tactic also of sectors, of the right wing because they always [break in audio] us. Then they want to impose their federal guidelines so this was the problem for Puerto Ricans. Because they wanted to, they wanted to impose the laws that say, that might work for team. See? Then they want to approach those laws to us and they said, “You have to have Blacks.” Then there is me with blue eyes and then you know, next to me is [Landor?] who is more Black than Obama and he’s a Puerto Rican. Then [02:34:00] so these federal guidelines were very difficult for implementation. But it took a lot of energy for us to counteract and with the public housing. We charged them and they would discriminate and they would not take Puerto Ricans into public housing. It was a real big, huge mess to drain us out of a lot of energy. But we did march in your marches and in the whole thing, I was taking the park. We really said, “Well, we’re going to do something here. I want to do something.” But what happens is that we had a base that was a little bit more bourgeoisie would you say, [02:35:00] Cha Cha? JJ: A little more bourgeoisie? AS: Yeah. JJ: You got a page? 85 �AS: A base, our base. JJ: Our base was a little -- AS: We adopted some tactic (Spanish) [02:35:11] how we said. JJ: You’re saying Westtown Coalition or is it another coalition? AS: Westtown Coalition. JJ: Okay. AS: It said. JJ: It was a different, it was a different role. You did play a different role than me. AS: See, the -- yeah. This is good. So that space, they have it, they want it, let’s leave it out there. We’re going to do something else. JJ: No, that -- AS: That’s from me and we would complement each other. And that’s, we talked about it and we said what is the way we are going to do it? Do you see the building? I want to take it over. We are going to go with the proposal already how to rehab the building. You see, right? JJ: [02:36:00] Oh, I see what you’re saying. AS: You see? Then there was this building, it has like 40 units right there on Potomac and we took over this. We got architects, engineers, the whole bit, and thing and we got the people to do the planning. Then we said, then we went too far, he said. “This building we’re taking over. Will you give it to us or this going to be bloody?” “It’s going to be bloody.” He said, “Well, wow, give me a second.” I will use the word, Cha Cha, like you won’t believe it. I said, “Well, I just talked to Cha Cha,” and I hadn’t talked to you in years. (laughter) 86 �JJ: Threatening, threatening. AS: Just [02:37:00] talked to the Cha Cha people because I’m careful about that. I talked to the Cha Cha people and they said that the best way to really have this building is for us to own it. For us to own it, you cannot own it so that’s it. Then we will get the thing running and he took the building so that was -- JJ: That was [Antwon’s?], that was [Antwon’s?]. AS: It was -- no, it was this a question of force, of force. JJ: Okay. So it was a united front. AS: Of course. This environment, said hey -- JJ: It’s a united front. AS: So we agree in the same thing, we offer the same. They have to go in this extreme because in this neighborhood, the right is at this level. We’re going to try this. We cannot. [02:38:00] If we can get the building by just doing this minimum, that’s what we’ll do. But if we have to go to the extreme, we will do it, too. But if not, we’ll go up to this level. JJ: (inaudible) AS: And that’s it. JJ: (inaudible) if that was wrong, you know, got some skills from (inaudible). AS: Yeah, sure. JJ: So that was good, it was (inaudible) -- AS: Sure. Mm-hmm. That’s how we were able to get the Harold Washington and base and all that. JJ: Right, you’re a Harold Washington campaign, you’re, you guys wanted an office, 87 �the members had another office and we would main Puerto Rican culture and were organizing for Harold Washington at that time. Then we did the rally in Humboldt Park at that time. There were a bunch of others. We were right here in our focus together. AS: Yes, we do it. Right. JJ: In fact, our (inaudible), they would give out at Humboldt Park at breaking the chains which was probably PSP and the Young Lords together. So it was part of it -- AS: They change -- JJ: -- was Young Lords and part of it was PSP. [02:39:00] AS: PSP, that’s right. JJ: So that was great. We gave 45, 30,000 buttons. AS: It was -- JJ: There was 100,000 people. AS: Yes. It was very, very good. Very. JJ: Then we opened a lot of doors because of the fall. AS: That’s right. Yes, uh-huh. JJ: We (inaudible) Rudy Lozano was killed two days later. AS: Right. JJ: I won’t forget that. He was murdered two days later. AS: Cha Cha, it was, it was so powerful. JJ: (overlapping dialogue) two days later -- AS: Unity is very powerful. You can see how this, how these things are so powerful 88 �that when one is involved in it, one doesn’t notice it but it is powerful. This gave the base for the Obama because these are the same forces that were -JJ: They elected Obama later. AS: -- that was elected Obama later. JJ: They just (inaudible). Any final thoughts? [02:40:00] Any final thoughts? AS: I hope that the independentistas and the Puerto Rican Liberation Movement is able to embrace Puerto Ricans in the United States as one movement and that the American people would really join in solidarity and consider the independence of Puerto Rico is also a responsibility they have. Because when they invaded Puerto Rico in 1898, they came here with guns. They didn’t come. They didn’t come here with ballots. They came here [02:41:00] with guns. That has consequences. You have to correct your mistakes. I think this is an opportunity for the American people to embrace the Puerto Rican liberation forces in a movement that will benefit both the Puerto Ricans but also the American people because the American people are subsidizing their -- I’m trying to say this in the nicest way possible. The fraud, the corruption of Puerto Rican governments, [02:42:00] they are subsidizing with the taxes all those, all those frauds that are occurring in Puerto Rico because they are embracing the forces of the negative forces that want to continue dependency instead of an independent Puerto Rico. So I hope we are joined together in this beautiful movement of people to people for freedom. Thank you. JJ: Thank you. AS: Thank you, Cha Cha. 89 �JJ: No, no, thank you. AS: Muchas gracias. JJ: (Spanish) [02:42:45 - 02:42:49] -- (b-roll; no dialogue) [02:42:49 - 02:44:56] END OF VIDEO FILE 90 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/66065eb46de59a730b2c0d3fbeb611d5.mp4 95fff37b9575a9056f642f47c724314a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry America Sorrentini vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Puerto Rico--Política y gobierno Puertorriqueños--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Sorrentini_America Title A name given to the resource America “Mecca” Sorrentini interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sorrentini, America Description An account of the resource America Sorrentini was born in Puerto Rico. She moved first to Boston and then to Chicago, arriving in the 1970s. Ms. Sorentini's parents were prominent organizers and activists in the struggle for Puerto Rican self-determination, working primarily in and around Santurce, Puerto Rico. Ms. Sorrentini, or “Mecca” as she is known, began her own community activism in Boston working on a variety of issues including housing. By the time Ms. Sorrentini arrived in Chicago she was already aware of the work of the Young Lords and remained in solid contact with the Young Lords. She, and the Chicago Puerto Rican Socialist Party, assisted with the Jiménez aldermanic campaign and later the Harold Washington campaign. When the Young Lords celebrated their official founding date, which is September 23rd the same day as the Grito de Lares or Puerto Rican Independence Day, they selected Ms. Sorrentini to be their keynote speaker. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Puerto Rico--Politics and government Puerto Ricans--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bf91a6b553164f6e7087133151e22a88.pdf a1e0c8a5b6c53d174f08f911a3eb9faa PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Lacey Smith Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/14/2012 Runtime: 01:55:40 Biography and Description Oral history of Lacey Smith, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on December 14, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript P1: Right. LACEY SMITH: You know? And the other thing, also, the city has been cuttin’ down right now? They are takin’ -(break in audio) JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, Lacey. Give me your name, full name, date of birth. LS: My name is -- JJ: Where you were born. LS: Okay. My name is Lacey Smith. I was born here in the city of Chicago, and my birthday is in December 28 of nineteen hundred and -- JJ: Which is coming up, so -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- happy birthday. I won’t be here. LS: I know you were gonna tell me that anyway. Yeah. ’48. And I’ve been residing here in the city of Chicago my entire life. JJ: Your entire life? LS: Yeah. JJ: So, how do you feel about that? I mean, feeling -- LS: About living in Chicago? JJ: Yeah. LS: Well, you know, Chicago is a very unique city in all aspects. We have a [00:01:00] great mixture of people. Politicians, education, environment, living 1 �conditions, and I feel a small part of some of all of those. Coming from a poor environment -- I pretty much still do live in a poor environment, but a middle-class poor environment, I suppose you would say. Education. JJ: Middle-class poor environment? That’s what you said? LS: Sure. JJ: Okay. What do you mean? What do you mean by that? LS: I was pretty much raised in the projects, and, gradually -- JJ: 16th and what? LS: 13th and Loomis. JJ: 13th and Loomis. LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay. LS: That’s Robert Taylor. JJ: Robert Taylor, okay. LS: Yeah. You know, came out of there, and, from there, we went to Catholic school, and then went to public school also, and, from there, back to another Catholic school. JJ: But you mentioned the Catholic school you went to was what? LS: St. Joseph, which was right across the street from our house there, like a minute and [00:02:00] a half across the street. JJ: St. Joseph LaSalle, by (inaudible)? LS: No. No, no. No, St. Joseph on 13th and Ashland -- I mean 13th and -- JJ: Right by the projects, right by -- 2 �LS: Yeah. Yeah. Right across the street from our house right there. JJ: So, that was Catholic school, and then you went to the public school? LS: Well, we had gone to the public school prior to that, which was about two and a half blocks south. It was Medill Elementary School. JJ: All around there. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, what kind of neighborhood was that while you were going? LS: Well, as we grew up back in the ’50s there, it wasn’t that much of a mixture, but predominantly Black. JJ: Predominantly Black? LS: Yeah, there was Anglos there, and there were Latinos there and stuff in the project area. JJ: But, as you went to Roosevelt and Taylor Street, what was that --? LS: Oh, that was like pretty much a dividing line, somewhat, although there were the Jane Addams housing there, on the Roosevelt Road there. You get to Taylor Street, that was Italian. JJ: So, by the Jane Addams House, over -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- by -- where Circle Campus is now. LS: No. We’re still west of that. JJ: You’re still west of that? 3 �LS: Yeah, we’re on 13th, [00:03:00] and Circle Campus started pretty much by the other side of Morgan, Blue Island, stuff like that. So, we’re still a little ways away from there. JJ: Okay, a little ways away -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- from there. But, so, you didn’t cross into that area ’cause that was the Italian neighborhood? LS: Well, once we were in high school, I had to go there every day to go to school. I caught the Number 37 bus, and, prior to that, we had -- JJ: How was that? No discrimination, none of that stuff? LS: Well, that depends on what you were doing because I had friends already over there, Taylor Street and stuff like that, you know, playing sports. When you’re involved in sports, you meet lots and lots of people, and other kids, who, like myself -- there’s no such thing as a boundary line. You go where the sport is, you know, and your peers and stuff of that nature, but, eventually, you will find there is a boundary, but whether you honor it or not, that’s your choice, pretty much. JJ: So, how did you get around to Lincoln Park? How did you get there? What was that situation? LS: Oh, that was -- JJ: You know, when we say Lincoln Park, the Armitage -- LS: Well, no, [00:04:00] that was a thing of -- after not bein’ able to survive educationwise in St. Ignatius because they had the grades and stuff, (inaudible) fund also, 4 �I wanted to try something different rather than to go to the Crane, or Cregier, or whatever schools there were down in that area there, so, you know, St. Michael’s was on the list. And so, chose St. Michael, and I’m always thirsty and hungry for something new. I like challenges all the time. So -JJ: So, you went from the (inaudible) homes to St. Michael’s every day? LS: Yeah. Sometimes six, seven days a week because I loved basketball. JJ: Oh, okay. (inaudible) basketball there. LS: Yeah, and, in basketball -- was a door to me to do lots and lots of things. Our relationship -- (inaudible) other people ’cause I’d been a part of the North Side for the past 55, 60 years, I guess. JJ: On the North Side. LS: Yeah. JJ: Yeah, the North Side. LS: [00:05:00] So, this is my (inaudible), wives, kids, education, employment. Everything I have has pretty much been coming from the North Side. Basketball, baseball, school, degrees and all. You name it. I’ve acquired all that from bein’ on the North Side, and -- JJ: So, you’re a North Sider. (inaudible) North Sider. LS: Yeah, I’m a North Sider. JJ: If I tell the West Side people, they -- LS: I’m a North Sider. (inaudible). Yeah. Yeah. So, I’ve acquired everything over there, school, and (inaudible) came from, you know -- as a young kid, didn’t know much about prejudice and stuff like that, and gang was a word that really wasn’t 5 �for me other than it being a word that I wasn’t really involved in it, and come to the North Side -JJ: So, gang was not a word, you’re saying. LS: It was a word. I never was affiliated, involved [00:06:00] in it. And, even as a young man on the North Side, quote-unquote that word gang was not something I was a part of. It was a thing that was labeled, that was given to us, pretty much, because we were all about athletes, athletics and stuff. Each block had their own boys in the clubs and stuff. We called ourselves clubs. (inaudible) boys, Armitage boys, North Park boys, Sedgwick boy -- we were all about sports and stuff. JJ: Okay. So, you’re talking about the Lincoln Park neighborhood. LS: Lincoln Park neighborhood, Near North, anything up in that area there, which is all Near North. JJ: It was all sports. It was all sports. LS: With us, as far as us, sports and stuff. The Young Lords there, on the other side there -- we weren’t gangs and stuff like that, Continentals, and Rebels, and stuff. We weren’t gangs. We were block clubs. We used to be about the sports. JJ: But we were being called gangs. LS: We’re always being called gangs by the system because that’s what they label us, but I can’t ever, until this very day, recall any of us rebelling against one another. [00:07:00] You know, (inaudible) baseball, basketball field, but it wasn’t called a gang thing. Nobody came out with guns, and knives, and bats, and stuff like that. 6 �JJ: So, nobody was fighting each other in that area. LS: No. We never did nothing like that with the Aces and Paragons. You know, we never fought one another -- with the dance contests and stuff, the picnics and so on. JJ: So, it was more like fighting at the dances? LS: Well, that’s because the young ladies (inaudible). JJ: It was competition. LS: Yeah. Competitions for dancing, yeah. You know how that used to be, the twist and so on and so forth, and -- JJ: The twist and all that. LS: The bop, the two-steps and stuff, yeah. You know? “You’re dancing with my girl.” Something like that. JJ: The Continentals? The Continentals and all that. LS: Yeah. (inaudible) this very day. The Continentals, we were still the coolest. JJ: Twine Time. LS: Twine Time, yeah, with “The Twist,” Chubby Checker, and stuff like that, you know? JJ: So, that was that age at that -- LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: There was competition on the dance floor. LS: Competition on the dance floor [always?]. JJ: But no fighting each other. LS: [00:08:00] (inaudible) stuff like that. 7 �JJ: Straight-up dancers. LS: Yeah, you know. JJ: Lovers. LS: Yeah. We were still the best at that also. We were still the best at that too, you know? And the neighborhood labeled us like that. That was nothin’ like -- we were not shooting and fighting each other down the streets and stuff. JJ: So, we weren’t fighting each other, but did we fight others? LS: Well, it wasn’t a thing that we had set up, we were rivals against Eagles, anything like that. You had those little rough bumps and stuff like that, but it wasn’t enough that we went shootin’ and stuff like that, or you’re gunning for this person. If someone from another area came, you know, just put your sweater over your arm, you know, and come through the neighborhood. There was nothin’ like we’re fighting -- (inaudible) Belmont and catch the Lords maybe like that. That stuff didn’t exist. We were labeled like that, you know? JJ: So, you mentioned put the sweaters over your arm. What was -- LS: That was respect. JJ: What was that? LS: [00:09:00] That was respect. JJ: You had sweaters? Was that --? LS: We all had sweaters and stuff like those jackets. JJ: What kind of sweater? LS: Like the high school sweaters, stuff like that. JJ: High school sweaters? 8 �LS: Yeah. We’re carryin’ our colors. JJ: Okay. High school sweaters, and you carry your colors. LS: That was the club we were -- the type of wool sweaters we had of the colors. Blue and white we were, red -- whatever, may have been brown. The same as the high school (inaudible), pretty much, you know? And those were our representation of our club. Everyone know, pretty much, who you were by the colors, but it was nothing like -- you were not feudin’, fightin’, and shootin’ with one another still. JJ: Everybody’s just proud to wear your colors. LS: Yes, proud to wear their sweaters. Yeah. JJ: Your sweaters. LS: Yeah. JJ: Everybody had their sweaters, and -- LS: And that’s where they had them. (inaudible) with the emblem and everything on it. JJ: So, it was more like sharp-dressed, (inaudible) sweater. LS: Yeah. Yeah. We’re sharp. JJ: Instead, it was sports (inaudible). LS: There was sports, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And there’s a mixture of people. We grew up, I think, in one of the most diversified areas there were, and Lincoln Park was -- we lived in there, between -- what was that? Division [00:10:00] and perhaps all the way, maybe, up to Diversey, perhaps, over there, and Lincoln Park, Triangle, and stuff like that. To school, though. 9 �JJ: Okay, there were still a couple fights, right? LS: Pardon me? JJ: There were still, like, a couple fights, but this was outside -- LS: Fights were minor scraps, I would say. There weren’t things like someone shooting somebody or -- JJ: No, but I’m not talking about with each other. I’m talking about other -- LS: Other areas? Yeah. JJ: Like the Romas. Were they angry with us? LS: Of course, because we’re Latinos. JJ: Okay. And what about -- there was that pizzeria, Benny’s pizzeria and all that. LS: Well, Benny’s Pizza wasn’t that much of a thing because that also -- at that time, I had moved pretty much up -- even with the sports and my affiliation with sports - JJ: We’re uniting -- LS: I lived there, yeah. JJ: We’re uniting like the Paragons. Is that what the group did? LS: Yeah, Paragons and Black Eagles up in there. JJ: So, you were in the Black Eagles and the Paragons? LS: No. We moved out there with Aces. The Imperial Aces. JJ: Imperial Aces. LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the Paragons -- JJ: Tell me [00:11:00] about the Imperial Aces. Who was the leaders? Who was --? 10 �LS: I can’t remember exactly who everyone was at that time, but, once again, still, I’m a sportster. You know? So, I represent -- as -- JJ: Well, they threw dances at the church, didn’t they? LS: Yeah, at -- JJ: (inaudible) -- LS: -- Armitage (inaudible), yeah. JJ: -- before it was Peoples Church. LS: Right. Yeah. Right. But, you know -- JJ: That was their hangout before it was Peoples Church. LS: That was their hangout there, and even the Paragons and Aces -- JJ: ’Cause the Imperial Aces and the -- LS: And the Paragons and -- JJ: The Paragons too. LS: Yeah. Yeah. And there was a hot dog stand. But, you know -- JJ: The hot dog stand? Where was that at? LS: Halsted and Dickens. JJ: Halsted and Dickens was the hot dog stand. LS: Yeah. Right. Right. JJ: George’s Hot Dog Stand? LS: George’s Hot Dog Stand better known as, yes. And -- JJ: Now, this is your interview. Why am I telling you this? LS: You’re asking me, and I’m answering your questions once again. Well, the things I learned about bein’ in the North Side was bein’ a people’s person. I 11 �always did enjoy bein’ with people, like I enjoy sports, and I guess -- and attending St. Michael’s High School gave me a new grip on [00:12:00] people in themself because, oh, there was some prejudism there in the school with teachers, which wasn’t surprising, being a Catholic school. There also was a teacher such as Brother Johnson, who was the first Black teacher (inaudible). He reinforced on us loving everyone. All right? He was very supportive to us and also gave me that new onlook about caring about people. People of color, people of no color, whatever they be, you know? So, that was growth in itself. But, also, I was learnin’ education was the number one thing. He was rough about that, making sure that we succeeded in education, which I did. It was rough sometimes because we were a new breed in the school, and -JJ: What do you mean, a new breed? LS: People of color. And -- JJ: You’re including there people of color -- LS: There’s been Latinos and Black -- JJ: African American, Black -- LS: Yeah. Yeah. You know, because Anglos were gonna make it one way or the [00:13:00] other ’cause, at first, it was a white school, a white community, and so on and so forth. JJ: So, now, these Latinos and Black are going to St. Michael’s? LS: Going to St. Michael’s High School, yeah, payin’ the tuition. JJ: And some of the teachers are prejudiced? 12 �LS: Well, no. It was not exactly a place I found out to be where you were there and it’s accepted. There were people callin’ on you about the prejudism. I found one of the nuns tell a young lady, “It’s not nice to talk with them, hang with them. A white girl like you’d be hanging (inaudible).” And it came back to I was a basketball player, you know? People of color don’t care about who the fans are. I mean, you care about the person who plays a sport. And this was told to us by several people, and I also heard it face to face because this young lady was talking to us. I thought we were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Teacher told us just like that, face to face. But -- JJ: Were you worried about it? LS: No. Didn’t lose [00:14:00] no sleep over it. I kept on livin’ life like I live life this very day. Accept people as they accept you. Do for those that you can help, and hopefully they can do for you if you’re in need of help. And I went through school, and I got my education, and, along with my education, I still played sports. JJ: You graduated from St. Michael’s? LS: Yeah. I graduated from St. Michael’s also. Which led me out to the streets, and, at that time, being older, you know, you got into street activity and stuff, but still playing sports. Basketball, boxing, baseball, stuff like that, with the group of other streets. Not -- JJ: Was the neighborhood changing? What year was that? LS: Mid-’60s. JJ: Mid-’60s? 13 �LS: Yeah, mid-’60s and stuff. JJ: Okay. So, I think it started changing with late ’50s, right? LS: Well, late ’50s, I wasn’t up there at that time, late ’50s. JJ: You weren’t up there. LS: No. No. JJ: But mid-’60s, you were up there. LS: Yeah, early ’60s. JJ: Early ’60s. LS: Early -- yeah. JJ: Did you notice any changing? LS: Well, you know, housing, especially with the rents and stuff like that. We were pretty much from 40, 50 dollars a month for rent, jumped up to [00:15:00] 100, 120 dollars, and people couldn’t really afford it. JJ: The rent was 40 and 50 dollars a month? LS: Forty, fifty dollars for some apartments, yeah. JJ: And then it went up to what? LS: And it doubled in some places. They wanted the people out because the whites were movin’ in, you know? Converting apartment and stuff, and, all of a sudden, there was no place for us there. So, that was part of that migration to Humboldt Park. They pushed us out, far west and stuff like that, which was a racial problem at some time, but, then again, it kinda was changing. They was just getting rid of us totally, and that’s why we started coming west. JJ: You’re saying it was a racial part at some times? 14 �LS: Yeah, it was a racial -- because some of those buildings there were full of Latinos, Latin and, say, white, but everyone in the building -- rent didn’t go up. They just wanted their property, and they want to do what they want to do with it, which cleared us out, the Latinos and Blacks, and, in that part of the area, there weren’t that many Blacks there, and I, at that time, didn’t really reside there because I always went back down to my mom’s house. JJ: So, I thought it was just about money, so -- LS: Well, if they’re [00:16:00] gettin’ you out of the apartment and raisin’ the rent, it is about money. JJ: Right. So, it was about money, but you’re saying it’s also about race? LS: Sure. The whites there weren’t moving to Humboldt Park. It was the minorities, people of color, always the ones that were bein’ thrown out and came to Humboldt Park, although, at the time, Humboldt Park was Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, as it is somewhat today, but we outnumber ’em probably about seven, eight, nine, ten to one some places, you know? So, that was where the migration from there came, west. JJ: Oh, so, you’re saying it was there first. LS: We were all in the north -- a very good mixture. They cleaned us pretty much out of there. You couldn’t afford or own property there, you had to move out because you couldn’t afford the rent, you know? And those who didn’t go to public school had to find those places to go to altogether too, and that was a lot of movement. A lot of movement, you know? That was pretty much the [00:17:00] mid-’60s, and that brought a lot of problems. Lot of problem. 15 �JJ: How did people see it? I mean, did they notice it -- LS: Well -- JJ: -- or did they notice -- I know they notice it today, but, when we were living there, did we notice that we were being kicked out? LS: Sure. There was rebellion against that. I was part of the picketing and stuff you guys did, walks back and forth, protesting. JJ: The Young Lords? LS: Yeah. JJ: The Young Lords protests? LS: Exactly. Yeah, picketing, protesting the rent, people being evicted. It was a big thing there. It was all about money, and the politics was changing, pretty much, and the Republicans were taking over. You know, we didn’t have that much of a democratic voice there because, once again, it was all Anglo there, and -- JJ: But, when we were doing it, a lot of people were against what we were doing. LS: Sure. JJ: Why do you think that was going? LS: Because there’s ways of doing things to some people, and there are ways of doing things right. What’s good for this hand doesn’t mean this hand has to agree with it. Okay? And -- JJ: So, people felt that we weren’t doing -- you felt that we [00:18:00] weren’t doing it right? LS: Well, with my situation, you know, I -- JJ: That’s okay. I just want to know how -- 16 �LS: Yeah. JJ: -- you felt at that time. I know -- LS: I -- JJ: -- today is different. LS: We didn’t see eye to eye about things (inaudible). I found out, in doin’ the things I did for the community and the kids of the community, working with the YMCA and social agency -- I worked for BUILD and things like that, and DHS, you know -- were a different approach than you did, and, with the format you know, we followed by it, and we had funding through the city or through private agencies, and that’s what we followed pretty much by, you know? JJ: But your approach more -- ’cause you said you’re into sports, and you were helping the youth. LS: Oh, yeah. That -- JJ: We saw you helping the youth, and we saw that was okay. LS: Well, it’s always -- JJ: (inaudible) too. LS: Yeah, but, before, you know -- and, working with BUILD -- let’s go ahead a little bit. In working with BUILD, BUILD has been the most healthiest thing I think I’ve ever done my life. Okay? Because BUILD introduced me to people, Near North, Cabrini-Green, which I was assigned to in the early [00:19:00] part of the ’80s, and I worked there -- JJ: BUILD as in Broader Urban Involvement for -- LS: Broader Urban -- 17 �JJ: Involvement for -- LS: Leadership Development. Okay? JJ: So, they worked with gangs, gang prevention. LS: We pretty much worked with the street gangs. We worked with elementary schools, and we continued with the sports and education. If you aren’t knowledgeable about things going on -- JJ: And, before that, it was the YMCA. LS: Well, we came out of the YMCA. JJ: Detached working? LS: Yeah, (inaudible) detached workers program, you know? JJ: Okay. So, you were working on the street there. So, it was you guys (inaudible). And then, you had -- I know Mingo had the other group. LS: CPRY? JJ: CPRY. LS: Yeah. JJ: We saw you as doing good. You were working with youth. LS: Yeah, working with youth. JJ: But you weren’t concerned about the housing at the time. LS: Well, at the time, that wasn’t an issue that we were involved with, although, you know, as years went on, found out it was a thing that we should be a part of also because -- JJ: It was later, [00:20:00] years later -- LS: Yeah. Years later. 18 �JJ: You realized -- LS: Well, we felt that was a thing that we should be a part of also. You know, it doesn’t help to be a part of all sports and no education. JJ: But, at that time, how did you feel about what the Young Lords were --? LS: The Young Lords were doing their thing. We were doing our thing, pretty much, just with different ways of approaching ’em. JJ: So, you didn’t see us as enemies. We had grown up together. LS: We’re not enemies. Just didn’t see eye to eye. JJ: We didn’t see eye to eye? LS: Yeah. JJ: They’re doing our thing, we’re doing ours. LS: They’re doing their thing, and the thing was -- JJ: We’re not attacking each other. LS: No, not physically. You know, verbal and stuff like that, of that nature, but the thing was to do for the people. JJ: But, I mean, so, you were disagreeing. My point is we weren’t attacking each other, but you guys were -- among each other, you were talking, right? LS: You were doing things with the housing. We’re doing things with the sports and education. JJ: That was it? LS: For the time, that’s what it was. You know, we were leading kids -- well, education -- JJ: You didn’t give us no mind. Is that what you’re saying? 19 �LS: Well, no. You were doing [00:21:00] things, as I said, your way. JJ: Yeah. I mean -- LS: All right? And -- JJ: -- you didn’t see us as trying to be terrorists or something? LS: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The word “terrorist” wasn’t a thing even (inaudible) those days. Militant. Militant’s the word to use. But yeah. JJ: The militants. LS: But that didn’t stop us from doing our thing. JJ: So, them guys are trying to be militants. Is that what you’re saying? LS: No. That’s (inaudible). I didn’t think we put that label on you or anything. You were doin’ just as you were doin’. JJ: Your thing, and we were doing our thing. LS: And we were doing the thing with sports and education. JJ: Okay. So, you saw that we were doing something. It just -- you didn’t agree with it. LS: You were doing something for the community. No question about that. JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah. Yeah. You’re doing something for the community, and -- JJ: You gave us that respect. LS: Sure. I mean, I’ve always respected you. JJ: No, no, I know we always-- LS: But I pushed -- coming from a house that I -- my mother, lived with my mother and father most of my life, everything. I always found out, you know, dealing with 20 �kids, you have to be a model to them, and we’re a model to the kids in sports. The father was in prison. The mother was in prison right there. JJ: [00:22:00] So, you had -- LS: I tell a child about sports. Without education, you’re not gonna advance. Education is something everyone should be gotten into, whether they’re good at it or not. If they need assistance at doin’ it, you know -- it’s not an option to be without. Okay? But those of us who did take education and move on with it, it was a thing that -- everyone with a high school diploma or degree progressed. There were some that didn’t, but a whole lot of us did, and they show in society that being people of color is a very good thing. Judges, policemen, military. We have a whole lot of Latino judges and stuff now, you know? Corporate leaders, nurses, so on and so forth. JJ: Because you’re working with youth, so you have to work with judges, and probation officers, and all the, you know -- LS: Well, over the years, that has become a factor because, through [00:23:00] BUILD, working with the kids -- JJ: And the police, you had to have ’cause I remember BUILD, once a year, played sports with the police. LS: Well, yeah. We used to have the annual softball and basketball game with the local districts, and the (inaudible), and stuff. JJ: To build relations. We were trying to -- LS: To keep the relationship -- JJ: You’re building good relations, and we were attacking the police. 21 �LS: Well, see, but our relationship at the time wasn’t in the 13th District -- I mean 18th District. You were in 18th District. We were the 13th and 14th at that time. Okay? JJ: So, you were -- LS: So -- JJ: -- in a different district. LS: You know, we had not expanded back that way until I came back in ’82. I guess it was around that time. JJ: Well, I guess my question is what did you think? Because the Young Lords used the word “pig” for the police. What did you think? LS: Well, you know, I felt, respectfully, their name is officers. Police, all right? All right. Respectfully, you know. But, nevertheless, there were times then, and there are times now -- JJ: We’re not using that -- LS: -- the policemen did not do -- JJ: We’re not using that term right now, but I’m saying -- LS: Yeah. But they [00:24:00] were not just doin’ what they should have been doin’ as law enforcers. JJ: Oh, so you agree that there was some abuse there. LS: Some? There’s always been some. There’s always some now today. The guys (inaudible) years in jail for some murders they didn’t do. JJ: So -- LS: DNA’s freed people who’d been in jail for 20, 30 years, you know? So, people have always been framed. Just, nowadays, there are ways of provin’ that they 22 �weren’t the one who raped that person, or killed that person, or that one commander who coerced a confession out of this young man -- some things he didn’t do. There’s always -JJ: Oh, so, times have changed, where, now, abuse is more known. For example, like, a policeman coerced a confession out of somebody? LS: Sure. They did then, and they’ll probably do it in the future also. It’s just, they have to be more -- JJ: But, now -- so, that has changed your thinking in that little way. LS: I knew it then, but there are state attorneys who [00:25:00] knew from the jumpstreet and policemen who knew people were innocent, but, once again, that’s a political thing about jobs and stuff. (inaudible) conviction. JJ: But your main concern was to help the youth at that time. LS: Help the youth at that time and -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: And it still is today. JJ: It is, okay. LS: Education -- this is America. You can do and be anything you want to be with education. Always will be. Okay? You can always succeed. The sky is the limit. You know, with the man upstairs lookin’ over you, you cannot fail. You shouldn’t fail. JJ: What are some of the things, going back to Lincoln Park a little bit ’cause we’re trying to get a picture of what Lincoln Park was like at that time -- what are some 23 �of the things that you did or that you remember that maybe the Imperial Aces were doing, and Imperial Queens, [00:26:00] to live daily life? What did they do? LS: Well, I guess we all thrive -- we look forward to that Friday night, though. That was the dance contest at the Y, or you had Immaculate Conception, you know, the YMCA and stuff like that. On Tuesdays, going swimming at the (inaudible) YMCA. We all had, pretty much, part-time jobs. I recall having a job in a car wash. I also remember having a job at Zenith, washing dishes in the kitchen and stuff like that. JJ: What place? LS: Zenith. You remember used to be on Armitage there? All right? No, Zenith was [on Halsted?], and (inaudible) was on Armitage, and Hamlin, all right? Because (inaudible) those little threads and stuff. You know, our parents supported us in household and stuff like that, especially those of us who came from large families, you know, and we went to school. So, we pretty much all had part-time jobs besides school, and -- JJ: You had part-time jobs, [00:27:00] and you waited for Friday. LS: Waited for Friday and Saturday night. That’s when -- JJ: Friday and Saturday. LS: Yeah, ’cause that was when we go out, and we’d do the twist, and we did the bop, and you name it. We danced Northwest Hall, what was it, Swedish Hall. JJ: Northwest Hall? LS: Yeah. We used to go in and dance. JJ: Over on Western and North Avenue? 24 �LS: Webster. The one on Sheffield and Belmont. JJ: Oh, the Webster one. I remember the Webster one. LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right? JJ: What was the name of that hall? LS: Swiss Hall. JJ: Oh, that was Swiss Hall. That was Swiss Hall. LS: Yeah. You know, that was showtime, and during the week was -- we -- JJ: What do you mean, showtime? LS: That’s when you get on the floor. You made that (inaudible) with your feet, man, you know? JJ: You weren’t doing twirls or whatever. LS: No, but we did a whole lot of splits. JJ: Splits. LS: Yeah. JJ: Did a lot of splits. LS: Did a lot of splits and stuff, you know? Yeah, I remember Saxton and myself and -- JJ: Saxton? LS: Yeah. JJ: Saxton -- LS: Edna. JJ: Oh, yeah. LS: Yeah, (inaudible) stuff like that. Yeah. I think -- 25 �JJ: Now, Edna was a Young [00:28:00] Lordette. What were you doing with a Young Lordette? LS: It’s because I was a Continental, you know? The Continentals were sharp. We always had your girls. But never no conflict behind that stuff, you know? And we all went to school. JJ: So, all the different -- LS: We came together. JJ: Different groups, they came together -- LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: -- (inaudible). LS: No problem. JJ: No problem. No conflict. No fighting. LS: No conflicts. Yeah, that’s because we weren’t gangs. It’s ’cause we were not gangs. JJ: Okay. There -- LS: Okay? JJ: -- was no gangs. LS: There were not gangs. All right? Wherever we went to, we always met on Friday or Saturday night. Eagles, Panther -- I mean, Paragons, Continentals. The Rebels didn’t hang that much with us and stuff like that, but we all went, and the contest was threads and dancin’. JJ: So, it was two contests, to see how bad you dressed -- 26 �LS: Yeah. And you get on the dance floor. Then, we took that trophy every weekend, Saxton or I. JJ: And what about cars? Did that play anything? LS: Well, all of us didn’t have cars. Some of the guys had cars. Chino, may he rest in peace also, (inaudible) had cars [00:29:00] and stuff like that. JJ: He was a Young Lord. LS: Chino was Paragons. Chino was Chino. JJ: The one that committed suicide? LS: Yeah. JJ: He was a Young Lord too. LS: Yeah? Okay. JJ: Yeah, he became a Young Lord. LS: Okay. But -- JJ: That’s right, he was a Paragon too, and a Young Lord. LS: He was the president of the Paragons. JJ: Right, he was the president of the Paragons for a while. LS: Yeah. Right. JJ: Then, he became a Young Lord. LS: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. LS: And, you know, I think we were all really positive. Going negative was fightin’ for our survival in the community, pretty much, and that was necessity, and a lot of us -- we kept pushing, pushing. We became -- 27 �JJ: You’re talking about Chino, the one that committed suicide. LS: Yeah. Eva and -- JJ: What was that about? What was that about? LS: Russian roulette. JJ: That’s all it was? Playing Russian roulette? LS: Mm-hmm. JJ: So, it wasn’t really a suicide. It was a -- LS: Russian roulette, yes. You play, and you expect it to happen, yeah. JJ: But he did that in his house. LS: In his house. I just left the house. JJ: In front of his mom and dad. LS: We were sittin’ at the table in the kitchen. JJ: What do you mean, “We were sitting?” LS: I was there. [00:30:00] I just left. JJ: Oh, you had just left. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, you had just left. Who else was there? Who was there when it happened? LS: Eva, his sister. JJ: Eva? LS: Yeah. And Sonia. Yeah, Sonia. That’s his mother’s name. Remember? And -see, I’m not sure if Pete was here yet or if he was still in New York, but there were a whole bunch who was there, you know? (inaudible) George’s Hot Dog Stand. We were over at the house, in the basement, sittin’ there. 28 �JJ: And then, he was just playing Russian roulette? LS: I just left. It was my curfew time, and -- JJ: So, you don’t know, but -- you heard the next day -- LS: I heard the next day. JJ: -- that he committed suicide. LS: Yeah, blew his head off. Yeah. JJ: So, that went all over the neighborhood. Everybody -- LS: Sure. JJ: Any time something happened -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- it was a big -- LS: Yeah. Yeah. I came back (inaudible) next day. The first I heard. Very first I heard, you know, which was a very, very sad thing. Yeah, it really was. JJ: And there were other things that happened in the neighborhood. Didn’t Ito get shot or something? What was that about? What was that about? LS: That was -- JJ: This is Ito -- What was Ito’s name? LS: Barrella. Barrella. JJ: Barrella? LS: [00:31:00] Yeah. JJ: Barrella? LS: B-A-R-R. JJ: Oh, Barrella. 29 �LS: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. JJ: And wasn’t that Elvis, his name? LS: Yeah. That was (inaudible). JJ: So, when I say, “Wasn’t that Elvis,” why are you laughing? LS: Well, ’cause Ito was the thing. He loved to sing and stuff, and doin’ Elvis steps and things of that nature, you know? JJ: So, what do you mean, he loved to sing? You mean at the dances? LS: No, he would do it on the street corner, wherever it may be. He would always imitate Elvis. JJ: Did he dress like Elvis? LS: Don’t really remember too much about that. He dressed -- JJ: ’Cause he had hair. He had the -- LS: Yeah, he also wore his hair a little bit long and stuff. Yeah. JJ: Like Elvis. LS: Yeah. JJ: He looked like -- but he would sing in the street corner like Elvis used to? LS: You know, we all used to do -- how do you call it? (inaudible), baritones, and stuff on the corner, you know? “What’s your name?” Yeah, remember that? And stuff like that, and we all used to do that stuff. JJ: What do you call it? Bebop [00:32:00] music? What kind of -- what is it? Bebop music? LS: Rock and roll. JJ: No, rock and roll -- 30 �LS: Rock and roll and bebop. JJ: But that singing. The singing that they -- LS: I can’ think of the phrase right now (inaudible). JJ: But everybody used to sit around and sing -- LS: Right. JJ: -- on those different corners. LS: Yeah, the bottle of wine in our hand and stuff like that. JJ: Bottle of wine. LS: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) that wine (inaudible). LS: (inaudible). Yeah, I remember those days too. Yeah. But, back to the thing I was sayin’ about -- JJ: And he was good. Wasn’t --? LS: Yeah, he was good. As a matter of fact, at some of the dances, he’d get up on stage there. They’d bring him up, and he’d sing -- JJ: So, they would bring him up to the stage -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- and he would sing -- LS: Yeah. Right. JJ: -- at our dances. LS: Yeah. Right. JJ: And everybody would go (inaudible). LS: Yeah. That was all good. 31 �JJ: Like if he was Elvis, right? LS: Well, you know, he -- JJ: Now, did the girls like that, or --? LS: Oh, yeah. Sure. The girls -- they all loved it. Any of us guys, that time, who had entertaining skills other than basketball, you know, the girls went crazy. JJ: So, the basketball thing was because the girls liked that, and -- LS: Well, the girls, they were our cheerleaders, you know, in basketball [00:33:00] and baseball. JJ: What did the girls do? What did the girls o? LS: Well, the girls had their little thing too, but I don’t think we were supportive to them as much as they were to us. JJ: So, we didn’t support them, but -- LS: Well, not as much as, you know, because, as time went on, I recall -- JJ: But they had their own groups (inaudible). LS: They had their own little group and stuff like that, yeah. They were mostly -- JJ: Now, did they fight in their groups? Were they gangbangers? LS: I don’t recall ever any fights like that and stuff like that. No. JJ: So, they weren’t gangbangers. LS: No. Not even at the beach and stuff like that, when they were at the beach, hanging out and stuff. I don’t recall the girls (inaudible). No, I really don’t. JJ: The girls did not fight. LS: I know we used to go to the beach -- JJ: Were the girls -- I mean, were they, like, street girls, or were they --? 32 �LS: They were all -- you can’t really say street girls. Street-wise, yes. JJ: Street-wise. LS: Okay? Because they went to school. Quite a few of them are nurses, and we have one or two that are attorneys, two attorneys and one judge. Others are business secretaries, and I think a couple even own companies, if I recall this correctly. They were very, [00:34:00] very progressive also, and -- JJ: Professional? LS: Professional. Progressive. Professional. JJ: Progressive. Oh, they were progressive. LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: When you say progressive, what does that mean? LS: They’re ambitious to become something besides what people thought they should have been by amounting to nothin’, hangin’ on the street corner, and just getting pregnant right out of high school, and becomin’ nothing. They had goals, and -- JJ: They had goals. So, they weren’t street people. LS: Street-minded, once again. JJ: They were street-minded. LS: Street-minded, but not -- JJ: But they had goals. LS: They had goals, yeah. JJ: That’s what you’re saying. LS: Yeah. 33 �JJ: That’s what you’re saying? LS: Right. Right. JJ: I don’t wanna -- LS: And -- JJ: -- put something in your mouth. LS: They were -- JJ: This is what they were saying. That’s what you’re saying. LS: Yeah. No, they had goals, and they acquired them. Of course -- JJ: You think of girl gangs, or girl clubs, or whatever -- LS: Girl gangs. Not in that time and age. JJ: So, they weren’t girl gangs. LS: No. Not in our time and age. JJ: Not at our time. LS: No, not that I can recall. JJ: So, these were just groups of -- they just went by their names? LS: Yeah, they were support to us as the group we had, that block group we had. I don’t ever recall -- JJ: You had the Young Lords, and you had the Young Lordettes. LS: Young Lordettes. Okay? JJ: [00:35:00] And you had the Imperial Aces, and you had the Imperial Queens. LS: (inaudible). JJ: What about the Paragons? They had -- LS: Paragons -- 34 �JJ: Just Paragons? LS: Their group was back and forth, the girls. They were pretty much at the hot dog stand, you know? So, it wasn’t like -- I mean, there was like -- JJ: The Miranda girls were Paragons. LS: Yeah, but, you know, they -- JJ: And they had other friends. LS: They had other friends that came over and stuff. JJ: And the Black Eagles had women with them all the time. LS: Yeah, which was -- the girls with them would share the same corner. JJ: They shared the same -- LS: Corner, yeah. Halsted and Dickens. JJ: Halsted -- everybody shared? All the different groups shared? LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Halsted and Dickens was downtown, basically. LS: Uptown. JJ: It was uptown. It was uptown. Not downtown. LS: Uptown, yeah. Good times and stuff like that. JJ: So, everybody went there. But then, other people had their own restaurants, didn’t they? Well, who was in A and A? LS: That was on Larrabee and Armitage? JJ: Yeah. Who was there? What groups went there? LS: That was Aces and Paragons also. Yeah. JJ: [00:36:00] Aces (inaudible). 35 �LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: So, that was everybody too. LS: Yeah. No problem. JJ: And what about the White Front? Who was there? LS: The White Front -- I’m trying to think of it now, White Front. JJ: What was the restaurant --? LS: That was the restaurant on Halsted and Armitage there. JJ: Right. LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that too. JJ: So, the building was (inaudible). LS: Yeah. Yeah. I remember that too. JJ: And who went in there? That was what? LS: We were all mixed there also. JJ: Oh, we were there, mixed? LS: Yeah, we were mixed there also, you know? I know about that. JJ: I thought it was more Eagles and Paragons there. LS: No, no. JJ: It was all mixed. LS: Mixed, if I recall. I mean, I didn’t go there that often because I went to St. Michael’s, and that was quite a ways away. JJ: Okay. You said there were sports, there was, like, softball. Did they play 16-inch ball? LS: Oh, yeah, 16-inch. Yeah, we played that. 36 �JJ: So, where did they play? LS: And then, on Saturday, we played 12-inch at Lincoln Park. JJ: In Lincoln Park? LS: Yeah, we played slow pitch, hardball, and stuff over there in Lincoln Park, and we had hardball also. JJ: Oh, we play hardball. LS: Yeah. JJ: And what about -- so, you only played in Lincoln Park, or did you play in neighborhood parks? LS: [00:37:00] Well, we played up there softball up on Webster and Sheffield there. We also played up on Addison, behind the police station there. We would play ball up there also. JJ: That was with the Latin Eagles. That was another group. LS: Yeah, with the Latin Eagles and stuff like that. JJ: So, you played against them. So, even -- we’re playing against them. We’re not fighting. LS: No. We had an altercation a time or two, but it wasn’t because of gang. It was over a game. JJ: And that was one or two individuals -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- usually. So, the gang -- LS: It would be a fair thing. JJ: It would be a fair thing? Just these two, let ’em fight, and that’s --? 37 �LS: Yeah. That’s fair. Yeah. That’s fair. JJ: So, there was a few of those things, right? Fair fights. LS: Well, you know, it wasn’t anything were someone got killed, or stomped, or beat with a baseball bat, or shot with a zip gun. Okay? We didn’t -- JJ: It wasn’t that. LS: No. JJ: So, it was just a fair fight. LS: Yeah. Even -- JJ: And everybody made sure that it was -- LS: It was a fair fight. That’s for sure. JJ: Nobody’s gonna get -- LS: Nobody (inaudible), and it stayed fair. JJ: [00:38:00] Okay. So, that was (inaudible). LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So, there was really no gangbanging in Lincoln Park. Is that what you’re saying? LS: Not with us, it wasn’t. Not among ourselves. It’s not that it didn’t exist thereafter because St. Michael’s Drum and Bugle Corps -- JJ: Later on, it existed. LS: Yeah, because (inaudible). JJ: St. Michael’s Drug and Bugle Corps. LS: Bugle Corps. From bein’ a band came into a gang. JJ: From a band, they became a gang. 38 �LS: There you go. JJ: So, why do you think that happened? LS: They were whites against us. JJ: They were whites? LS: They’re whites against us. JJ: So, it was mostly a white -- LS: They were a white -- JJ: A white drum and bugle corps. LS: -- drum -- bugle -- they were startin’ to be a band from St. Michael’s. JJ: So, it was a racial thing. LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: So, is that (inaudible)? LS: That’s just what is says. They were a band who came out of St. Michael’s -- JJ: And they were all white. LS: -- High School, and they were all white -- couple Mexican kids there, I remember -- and they were [00:39:00] totally against us. As you may remember, the police used to pick us up in that area and drop us off to make us walk back in their neighborhood, just to make sure that we got jumped one way or the other. JJ: The white police? LS: Would pick us up. JJ: And put us -- drop us off -- LS: And drop us off in that neighborhood, yeah. JJ: To get beat up. 39 �LS: That’s right. That’s right. JJ: So, they looked at us as a gang -- LS: Well -- JJ: -- but it was more racial. Is that what you’re saying? LS: It was racial. You know, why would you take -- if someone in my area was Latino, or, myself, Black, or whomever the other people in there -- you know, there weren’t very many people dark as me, were there? Carlos, a few other people. But deliberately pick us up, and take us for a ride, and drop us off on Cleveland and Armitage? JJ: So, most of the Spanish people in the Chicago -- ’cause, in New York, a lot of the Spanish people are darker-skinned. So, actually, the most of the Spanish people in Chicago and Lincoln Park were more light-skinned? Is that what you’re saying? There was a mixture. LS: We’ve always had a mixture because Latinos -- JJ: I mean, they weren’t light as [00:40:00] me. LS: And they were dark as me, some of ’em. But, bein’ Latino, you know, we aren’t promised any color of pigment. JJ: We got what? LS: (inaudible). Look at my kids. My grandkids. (inaudible). It’s not promised, you know? But, like the cop told me that time, “Why are you with these spics?” JJ: You said problems. We didn’t have problems. LS: We’re not promised color of pigment. JJ: We’re not promised. 40 �LS: Yeah. You know? Like the cops used to say, “What are you with these spics for?” Spics, you know. I am one. And so, therefore, I walk back from (inaudible). But it was a little bit different for me. I went to St. Michael’s. But, nevertheless, I’ve been chased as the same group in the summertime. I remember the old Gas 4 Less gas station there. I’ve had to fight in the middle of there for my life and run. JJ: What was that like? Gas 4 Less was where? What corner? What corner was that? LS: That’s where the drummers -- St. Michael’s. Cleveland and Armitage. JJ: Cleveland and Armitage. There was a Gas 4 Less station. LS: Yeah. JJ: And what was goin’ on there? LS: That’s where that gang [00:41:00] hung out at. JJ: There was a gang? LS: Yeah, up there. Yes. JJ: What do you mean? The Drum and Bugle Corps? LS: You better believe it. Just like Roman’s Pizzeria, Sheffield and Webster. JJ: So, the Drum and Bugle Corps hung out there too? Oh, yeah, because St. Michael’s is on Cleveland. LS: Three blocks down. JJ: So, all they did was just walk a few more blocks down -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- to Armitage. 41 �LS: Yeah. JJ: So, they would catch people there when they went to the gas station? LS: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was the only gas station, as a matter of fact. JJ: So, when we wanted to get gas, we had a problem. LS: We got beat up there, or the cops called and dropped us off there. JJ: Oh, that’s where they would drop us off. LS: That’s where they dropped -- in that area, right around there. JJ: Right around there. LS: The other side, by LaSalle. We got to come back that way one way or the other, and they were a large bunch of -- group. (inaudible), we’re bound to get caught one way or the other, you know, so there was really no escaping that part. JJ: So, here’s all these Puerto Rican gangs. LS: Groups. JJ: Groups. Groups. I’m sorry. Let me take that word back, say -- I get tricked myself. LS: Okay. I’m gonna trick you, all right. JJ: So, all these Puerto Rican [00:42:00] groups are not fighting each other. LS: No, we’re never -- JJ: But then, they get dropped off in a white -- LS: In a white community -- JJ: White community. LS: -- where they knew there were gangs, you know, who have (inaudible) pop bottles, and beer bottles, and (inaudible) can really recall or care to remember 42 �because of bein’ taken down to that bar our men in blue and dropped us off. Bein’ taken to jail, having to walk back and stuff (inaudible) 18th District. “Oh, we’re gonna let you guys go. We had to walk back. Yeah. JJ: Now, did these Drum and Bugle Corps -- were they a gang? LS: Yes. I think we already established that they were. For the most part, they had already graduated from high school. So, that was their hangout spot, and they’d sit there, and they juiced up, everything like that, and we had to come back through there. So, like I said, I was lucky sometimes because I played ball. JJ: So, they had graduated from high [00:43:00] school, and they were not playing ball. LS: That was the clique of the neighborhood. Like we would hang at the hot dog stand, all right? That was their -- JJ: That was their place. LS: That was the hangout, yeah. JJ: That was their hangout. Okay. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, we did have a hangout, but it was -- LS: Well, some of us did. JJ: But it was racial. LS: It was pretty much racial. JJ: Most of the Puerto Ricans were over by Halsted and Dickens. LS: Well, Halsted and Dickens, North Avenue, Whealan, stuff like that, (inaudible) and stuff. But, as you said -- 43 �JJ: At a playground. LS: Yeah. JJ: We were in different sections. LS: Yeah, but, as you said, the only way to get gasoline -- that’s where we had to go. JJ: That’s where you go to get gasoline, you get your but whupped. LS: Yeah, that was the only place. That was the place we had to go for gas, yeah. JJ: Right, go up there. LS: About there. Yeah. JJ: But, by the same token, when they came and got [Polish sausages?] -- LS: Yeah, but, see, that time, though -- I guess, you know, I better say they was a gang, or should I say that? Because that was revenge, because it wasn’t so much they were identified Drum and Bugle. It was just, once again, reverse racialism. They were there, and that was where [00:44:00] they turn out, and we did the jumping. Yeah, I do remember those days also. JJ: So, we did some jumping there. LS: Yeah. Yeah. I do remember. JJ: And you said that was revenge? LS: Sure. JJ: Why would it be revenge? LS: It had been done to us on the other side. JJ: So, it had been done to us first, or no? LS: As far as I can remember, yeah. I would say yes to that. JJ: ’Cause revenge, that sounds -- is that what you mean by revenge? 44 �LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That, I can actually say yes to. JJ: Are you sure it was done to us first? LS: Sure. I had been dumped over there. JJ: Okay, you got dumped over there. LS: I got dumped over there. And, before that, I don’t ever recall anything, like, it was a thing where somebody white or Anglo came through there, and we just jumped on ’em prior to us bein’ dumped in that neighborhood. People used to come to the hot dog stand (inaudible) used to be long, people of multicolors. Korean, Japanese. JJ: So, it used to be multicolor. LS: People standing there and buyin’ that Polish -- JJ: [00:45:00] But, then, it became -- LS: Then, it got to the point anyone was white there, you had to get jumped for a while. JJ: So, then, if whites came, then they get jumped. LS: Yeah. Yeah. I have seen that also. JJ: So, we did a racial thing. LS: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. JJ: ’Cause you said it was for revenge. LS: Yeah. I’ve seen that also, yeah. JJ: Okay. LS: And that was not while I was in school. That was afterwards, so, I mean, once again, that was the older group. 45 �JJ: Oh, that was later. LS: Yeah, that was the older group. JJ: So, in the beginning -- but you weren’t there in ’59. LS: No. I was there from ’63, ’64 and up, though. JJ: ’63, ’64. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, you were there when it was really all Puerto Rican, mostly Puerto Rican. LS: So-so. Yeah, pretty much. JJ: Well, ’63, ’64, that was changing a little bit, no? LS: Well, yeah. That was, pretty much, but even -- JJ: Were there a lot of Puerto Ricans? But, I mean, what was the boundary? Where were the Puerto Ricans? Where were the Drum and Bugle Corps? LS: Well, they were the other side of Larrabee. JJ: They were the other side? LS: Other side of Larrabee, yeah. We’re in between Halsted and Racine. JJ: [00:46:00] Okay. Okay, so, we were between Halsted and Racine, and they were on the other side of Larrabee. LS: Yeah. They were Larrabee back to the lake. JJ: In between Halsted and Larrabee, what was there? LS: In between Halsted and Larrabee? That was pretty much us because you had -- JJ: That was us too. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, we were the other side of Larrabee. 46 �LS: Yeah. JJ: Larrabee was (inaudible). LS: Yeah, we were west of Larrabee. They were east of Larrabee. Yeah. That way, you know. JJ: And you went straight up, from North Avenue up. LS: Yeah. And then, once again, go back to -- this is where BUILD gave us the opportunity to teach kids sports, basketball, baseball, education, and I found also -- even with the court system. You know, goin’ to represent the youth in court, providing programs for them after school. We had a program ran by the (inaudible), where we were the last chance for some kids before they became incarcerated, and that was a very successful program because, when I was an advocate there, I used to make a curfew call [00:47:00] at nighttime, go to court with them in the morning, and provide programs for the youth throughout the day, male and female. (inaudible) also. And, in working in the Near North and Cabrini-Green area, you know, it was a challenging job because you’re dealing with kids who maybe, perhaps, no one really loves, and we were the last chance before they become incarcerated. In most cases, we were the ones, especially in our program -- I ran the street program. We were the ones who (inaudible) the racial (inaudible) in the Latin community or a mixture and were going, “Oh, man, I don’t wanna go over there.” And, finally, even some of ’em got married. BUILD got new friends, especially (inaudible) and stuff like that at the time. So, they grew (inaudible) blood can’t mix, and that’s another thing, you know? BUILD provided lots of things for kids, and I’m glad to say I was a part of that, building 47 �the structure in the [00:48:00] community and helped me in my own life, meeting people and stuff like that, and helped me also -- even more so broadened my education, broadened education and stuff like that. You put people in situations where they ordinarily would not have become, and they grew from that, and that’s what happened with me as BUILD, you know? And, as you go through the BUILD program, you find out -- you know when your time is up to spin off. It’s time for new blood to move in, and that was one thing that BUILD was very, very good at doin’ and they’re still doing today, and, if you don’t mind me sayin’ so, they’re located at 5100 West on Harrison, and they’re still working with children with gang background. JJ: They’re on Harrison? LS: Yeah. Moved as of July 1. JJ: As of July 1? LS: Yeah, of this year. Yeah. JJ: And you’re still working with BUILD? LS: I go occasionally. They’re a little farther than they were before. Before, (inaudible) go there pretty much every day up until now. But BUILD [00:49:00] program was one healthy program for our community, Lakeview, Near North, Uptown, Cabrini-Green, West Town. They were a healthy program. JJ: ’Cause didn’t they have, like, a thing where they -- you can go in, and they have every neighborhood? LS: We were selected by -- JJ: Like, they had a field office, right? 48 �LS: I mean, office was always Ashland and Milwaukee. JJ: No, but I’m saying they had field workers. LS: Oh, yeah. I started out -- yeah -- JJ: How did that work? LS: Yeah, I started out with BUILD, makin’ 10 dollars a month as a field assistant. You gradually grew. JJ: How does that work? LS: Well, that’s the person who has a contact with the group, and you would get your peers and stuff involved, and -- JJ: So, that means you were assigned to a corner. LS: I was assigned to a group. JJ: To a group, okay. LS: All right? I’m a member of that group at the time, though, you know? All right? Or you could have been assigned depending on how neutral was the group because there, at that time, [00:50:00] and I guess the ’80s and stuff like that, there were conflicts with the Vice Lords and stuff of that nature, the Gents, these Deuces, and so on and so forth. So, either you found someone of that group that infiltrated the group and helped them out with education -- JJ: Infiltrated the group, or you’re a member of the group? LS: You can be a Young Blood there and still help (inaudible). JJ: And it was 10 dollars a month. LS: Ten dollars a month. There was a stipend. JJ: What kind of work do you do? 49 �LS: That was just more or less an incentive if you come to that one meeting a month and get the money, and, in the same token, you still hung with the group. You’re a member. JJ: What’s the meeting? You come at the meeting? LS: You come to that meeting there, and you can talk about things that happened within your group or people you’d like to see helped, you know, education, or someone may need a job. Someone may need a GED. You know, and you grew pretty rapid?. JJ: So, it’s like a counseling session. You say, “Okay, this is what we can do for these people?” LS: “This is what I’d like to see [00:51:00] happen within my group.” JJ: Okay, within my group. Okay. LS: Yeah. JJ: “This is what I would like to see happen within my group.” LS: Yeah. This person, this person, you know. JJ: You shared that with everybody. LS: You shared that. Then, you had your -- JJ: And then, they might help you. They might -- LS: Well, no “might” about it. We made an effort to always do it. Always made an effort to do it, you know? (inaudible) to the field worker, and then supervisor, and then coordinators and things of that nature. All right? And we made the effort. Get those groups (inaudible) in sports. Help one group (inaudible) job in the same location. It was makin’ people meet one another, (inaudible) one another. 50 �JJ: Building -- LS: BUILD. BUILD. JJ: (inaudible) -- LS: BUILD -- JJ: -- everybody trying to -- LS: Yeah, that’s what BUILD’s about. JJ: Like building unity. LS: Yeah. And, that way, you know, you can erase some of those lines and those boundaries. JJ: Building networks, yeah. LS: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That’s what BUILD program’s about, and it is now, and they’re [00:52:00] still doin’ the same thing. The emphasis is now on gangs more because foundations and funding is not that much available for gangs, but there are other ways that they have found to get money to work with the youth. JJ: So, what kind of -- how did they get money? I mean, what -- LS: The United Way was a supporter. You’ve got private corporations and personal and private donors who would donate. JJ: They had a lot of personal donors, or --? LS: Oh, yeah. We’ve had over the years, yes. Some of them. JJ: From where? From factories? From --? LS: Corporations. JJ: Corporations? 51 �LS: Yeah. Corporations. And we have very, very few government dollars because you don’t know -- in election year, you can be cut 100, 200,000 thousand dollars, and that was our budget, and we never, that time, invested into brick and mortar. [00:53:00] And so, therefore, we were sure the dollars we had would be there another year, five years, ten years from now down the line, so they -- JJ: You were sure? How were you sure? LS: Well, if you are not -- JJ: Connected. You got to get connected. LS: Well, you’re not into, say, city dollars. Say, next year, (inaudible) loses the election, there goes, possibly, your funding. You know? JJ: Okay, so you got city dollars too. LS: Well, we didn’t have a great deal. We weren’t depending upon them a great deal, no. JJ: You got some. So, I mean -- LS: Yeah. Well, private donations and corporate -- JJ: Private donations. LS: Yeah, and corporations. Yeah. That was the backbone of everything. JJ: Okay. So, private donations and stuff like that? LS: Yeah. JJ: What else? LS: You spoiled it already. JJ: I spoiled it? Oh. I’m sorry about that. LS: No. Doesn’t he always say that? 52 �JJ: Hold on one sec. Hold on. (break in audio) LS: You know how hard those stairs were comin’ up? Watch how easy they be goin’ down. JJ: [00:54:00] Okay, so, what are you doing now? What kind of work are you doing now? LS: I work for the circuit court for county. JJ: Circuit court of Cook County? LS: Yeah, presently, and I -- JJ: How did you get in there? What was that? LS: How did I come about it? JJ: If it’s not personal. If it’s not personal. LS: I applied for the job. It took me a great number of years to get the job, and the requirements of getting the job was you have a college degree, and I have several of those, and I work with -- JJ: You have several college degrees? LS: I have several. JJ: I didn’t know. Where did you go to college? Tell me which school. LS: School? I went to U of I, University Without Walls, and that was gettin’ your education from protecting the job we did, once again through BUILD. JJ: Through BUILD. LS: So, yeah. JJ: So, you got BUILD to pay for it?. 53 �LS: Yeah. You know, so, you project what you can accomplish. That was how you-- JJ: (inaudible) school, yeah. LS: And the only other thing was my love for law enforcement. [00:55:00] JJ: Okay, you went for law enforcement? LS: Well, my love for, pretty much. You know, there are a lot of things that you can get credit for. JJ: Oh, that’s right. You know what? There was -- LS: University Without Walls. JJ: -- corrections. Oh, you went to University Without Walls. LS: Well, University Without Walls -- JJ: You used University Without Walls (inaudible) law enforcement degree? LS: Yeah. They have that, and so does -- JJ: ’Cause I know there were some correctional classes ’cause I took a couple with BUILD when I was there. LS: And all the years and experience I had on the street, that was -- JJ: ’Cause that’s what BUILD did. BUILD wanted to build relations with the police and with the youth, I mean, to bring people together. LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: They were trying to bring people together. LS: That’s what the all-star games were about (inaudible). JJ: So, how did that work? How did that work? LS: Well, that’s always had a positive aspect. JJ: What was that? What was the all-star game (inaudible)? 54 �LS: That was with the police department, the same as at Clemente. Basketball at Clemente and baseball at (inaudible), and that’s still an annual thing that goes on. JJ: So, what were the teams? LS: The teams were a mixture of all [00:56:00] the street gangs versus the police department. JJ: Versus the police department. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, all the street gangs against the police department. LS: Well, you know, you would use the senior -- JJ: Seniors. LS: -- yeah, representing us. You have two or three guys each group like this to form one senior team, and the police department, they would recruit from either the district or several districts, and they would play against the street gang. JJ: So, one of the good things about that was that all the street gangs would have a way to get together and that they would not fight. LS: Sure. Well, you know -- JJ: (inaudible), I mean, which is good. LS: Yeah, well, actually -- JJ: (inaudible) that’s good. LS: -- that’s giving -- with street cops, that very good rapport. That doesn’t mean all cops are bad because they aren’t, you know? And they aren’t all cops that drop you in the wrong neighborhood. Okay? And, for the most part, most of the 55 �police officers who the groups participated against, they knew them on the street already ’cause they’re already (inaudible) cop, and these same kids are the groups, you know. So, that just gave us a stronger hand, more rapport, and good PR. JJ: Okay, that was good PR for [00:57:00] BUILD, and, at the same time -- LS: For the street gang and the police department. JJ: Building rapport with some of the -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- street members. LS: Yeah. Right. So -- JJ: And the street members are doing something together for a change. LS: They were doing something together because, in addition to that, their groups were there also, and that -- you got eight, nine, ten, twelve different groups there. No conflicts. JJ: Right. So, in the audience, there’s also members of the different groups. LS: That’s right, yeah. JJ: Street groups and all that. LS: Yeah. JJ: And police. LS: Yeah, and there’s no conflict. JJ: And there’s no conflict. LS: That’s right. JJ: So, it was a way for them to come together without conflict. 56 �LS: Yeah. JJ: ’Cause I remember the YMCA Detached Program did that with camp. Did you ever go to any of those camps? LS: Well, we also had -- with BUILD, we had the training things up in Saginaw, Michigan. JJ: Oh, Saginaw, Michigan. LS: Yeah, Whitehall. Whitehall, Michigan (inaudible). Yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: (inaudible). So, Saginaw Michigan is where it was? LS: Yeah. Whitehall, Michigan, then we were in Saginaw another time for seminars. JJ: No, but wasn’t there one in Kalamazoo or something? LS: Kalamazoo? JJ: [00:58:00] Or was Saginaw? Was that the part up there? LS: I remember Whitehall, Michigan. We drove right past it one time [in ’73?]. JJ: Whitehall, Michigan? LS: Whitehall, Michigan, it was. Yeah. And that was an annual thing. It was for staff also. (inaudible). JJ: This was at Whitehall? LS: If I remember correctly, it was in Whitehall, Michigan. And we’d go up there once, twice a year. It was a staff thing there, (inaudible) staff, and perhaps your field assistant, your field worker. JJ: Was it Flint, then? Maybe it was Flint. I remember we took over a town. We went there for camp. LS: No, that wasn’t BUILD. We didn’t took over no town. 57 �JJ: No, not with BUILD. That was with the YMCA Detached Program. LS: Okay. Yeah. JJ: And we went there, and, you know, it was a camp. It was a nice camp, but then, at nighttime, we had nothing else to do, so we went to the town. LS: (inaudible). JJ: And we just took over. LS: No. JJ: I don’t mean we took over a town. I mean we -- LS: Well, you know -- JJ: We hung out at the town. LS: You know, the Y has several different Y -- JJ: It was a small town. LS: There’s Camp Bierk, Camp [Chen?]. There’s another camp also. So, we always went to -- I think it was [00:59:00] Camp Sears. JJ: These were all owned by the Y. LS: Yeah. But, also, at BUILD, we went to Camp Chen and Camp Sears also for these seminars, so they may have all been in a different town or something, but we never were taking over a town. JJ: No, I don’t mean take -- I mean we were hanging out downtown. LS: Okay. JJ: It was like we’re the only ones downtown. LS: Yeah. JJ: Not like that. I don’t mean like that. 58 �LS: Okay. JJ: So, right now, you’re working in the -- LS: Circuit court for Cook County. JJ: -- circuit court of Cook County, and what type of work do you do there? LS: Documents. JJ: Okay. What do you mean, documents? LS: Divorce. Civil. (inaudible). Eviction. (inaudible). You name it. We handle all the court documents. Criminal. Juvenile. You name it. It’s a document, it goes through the court system, we have it. We have records we keep on file. Juvenile records -- for over 20 years, we keep. All right? And I work for one of the -- my chief’s name, Dr. Bloomberg, and she’s in charge of the [01:00:00] civil division, and I work underneath her. JJ: Okay. And so, any record, whether it’s a criminal offense or (inaudible) -- LS: Anything you do. JJ: Anything we do is in there? LS: Yeah. JJ: So, my record is in there. Don’t look at my record. LS: Already saw it. We keep records on everything. Divorce, the whole shebang. Any type of violence and stuff, we have it. We have records on Al Capone. Everything. JJ: (inaudible)? LS: Yeah. (inaudible). Everything. We have every single thing. JJ: I got a couple traffic tickets. Can I get ’em cleared? 59 �LS: Sure, soon as you pay ’em. JJ: Okay. So, how long have you been there? LS: Ten years. JJ: Ten years? LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So, you’re planning to kinda retire from there, or --? LS: Well, I think I’m old enough. I should do something. That’s a thing that -- JJ: So, I mean, what are your plans? I mean, what are --? LS: Oh, yeah. Well, in the near future, [01:01:00] I hopefully maybe put another couple more years in and try retiring again, as I have in the past, but this time with different goals in mind. You know, maybe I can spend more time fishing, campin’ with my grandkids, my son and his kids, and stuff like that. We’ll see what happens. But I’ll like to also -- possible -- start my own business again, and I’m not sure just what I wanna do at this point, but I go into communications or (inaudible). JJ: You had a business before? LS: I founded several companies over there. JJ: What kind of business? LS: Janitorial. JJ: Janitorial (inaudible)? LS: Yeah,[and all that stuff, you know. Entertainment and stuff like that. Bars and stuff like that. JJ: That’s right. Didn’t you do -- not janitorial. It was termite -- not termite. 60 �LS: Pesticide. JJ: What is it? LS: Pesticide. I own [a serving?] company. JJ: (inaudible) pesticide for a while. You had-- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- your own company when we were at BUILD. LS: Mm-hmm. And I’m about to go do it again, perhaps. We’ll see what happens. (inaudible) I got a whole bunch of stuff there. JJ: Okay, so you’re (inaudible). LS: [01:02:00] Yeah. I paid for the test twice last year and didn’t go. JJ: But what about customers? Where do you get customers? LS: No problem. JJ: Word of mouth? LS: That won’t be a problem. JJ: Word of mouth, or --? LS: Bids on certain things and word of mouth about the rest of ’em. JJ: Oh, so you bid to companies. LS: Yeah. Sure. You bid for stuff at bakeries, hospitals, and stuff like that. JJ: How do you bid? Do you just go to them, or --? LS: Well, you go, and find out what the requirements are, and you see what the needs are, and you put a competitive bid in, and you have to be licensed also, and bonded. JJ: Okay. Licensed and bond. So, you have to (inaudible) do that. 61 �LS: Yeah. JJ: That’s pretty expensive. LS: Money makes money. JJ: Okay. So, that’s part of the thing. LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Part of the procedure. Okay. I think, last time, we talked about -- I just wanna -we talked about how you felt about Lincoln Park changing. We talked about that, so I don’t wanna ask you that again, but I’m just trying to [01:03:00] continue to describe Lincoln Park that you remember, what you remember of Lincoln Park, so I’m trying to -- LS: As to where it is today, I think it’s changed a whole lot. It, once again, is a rich area of the city of Chicago, and, if you’re not in that bracket of dollars, you can’t afford to live there still. Even if you look to the south of the Lincoln Park area, Cabrini-Green really doesn’t exist anymore. The project houses are not there, and you got to be in the upper-middle class or over in order to live in the Near North area, period. JJ: Who do you think did that? I mean, it’s a beautiful thing, right? For some people. LS: Sure, it’s beautiful, but it also pushes people out of the areas they’ve put blood and sweat into, and their last penny. And then, once again, once you start driving them out, you drive them into an area where you can put projects up again. JJ: Okay. Well, let me ask you this other question, okay? You work at [01:04:00] Cook County. 62 �LS: For Cook County. JJ: For Cook County. There’s a lot of other people that came from our neighborhood that work for the city and Cook County and that, right? LS: Yes. JJ: They were able to get some jobs, which is fine. There’s nothing -- you know, we need jobs (inaudible). LS: We have good Latino representation and Black representation in both governments. JJ: So, (inaudible) -- LS: City, state, and government. JJ: -- we were able to get some jobs. LS: Well, we have a whole lot more than some. We just don’t have a heck of a lot. We could use a lot more. JJ: We could use a lot more. LS: But education, once again, is the key to the door. JJ: But it wasn’t only education. I mean, it was also that -- LS: Political. JJ: It was political. I mean, would you agree to that, or no? LS: Sure. JJ: Okay. So, it was political. I mean, some of it had to do with knocking on doors and stuff like that. LS: Well, knocking on doors is political. 63 �JJ: Right. That’s what I mean. That’s political. So, some of that. Some of the people from our neighborhood did that on [01:05:00] different sides. LS: Mm-hmm. JJ: Some worked for Washington. Some worked for Daley. Some -- whatever they did on different sides. Because it’s part of the democratic system in Chicago, right? LS: It’s part of the political system everywhere. JJ: Everywhere. It’s part of the political system everywhere. Okay. So, as an insider, how do other people, insiders, look at the whole question of -- LS: Patronism? JJ: -- being kicked out of Lincoln Park, and Wicker Park, and Humboldt Park? How do they look at it? LS: Well, I guess it’s go with the flow for some, for most parts. Either you’re part of or you’re not gonna be there at all, and we have enough homeless people as there is, for one thing, homeless and starving people, right here in Humboldt Park, right here in Ukrainian Village. We are having a very, very large epidemic of homeless people, and they’re Black, white, yellow, you name it. [01:06:00] But, nevertheless, we still got these high-rises going up, you know, and people losin’ their homes. Can’t afford -- and also homes bein’ foreclosed upon. I don’t have a solution for that, but, again, all the new houses and townhouses that are being built are -- JJ: No, but I’m -- LS: -- empty. 64 �JJ: I’m not asking you for a solution. I’m just saying, how do people in there look at it? You know, the Young Lords at one point were disagreeing with the mayor, Mayor Daley and that, because we thought his plan was not helping us. I mean, how did you look at it from the inside? ’Cause you were -- people had to support Mayor Daley, right? At that time. I mean, and, like you said, you have to go with the flow. LS: You should, yes. JJ: You should go with the flow. (inaudible). LS: Not necessarily meaning that you have to. JJ: No, no, but you’re saying that, sometimes, you got to go with -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- the flow. LS: Well, when it comes to the housing situation, I believe -- you know, I think that we should start [01:07:00] providing alternative housing for those people who are evicted. Okay? And, whether it be senior citizen homes, or (inaudible) housing, or whatever it may be, we, sooner or later, are going to start putting up a whole lot of alternative housing, and that -- ’cause they all have to be CHA houses because, instead of putting people on top of one another sixteen stories high, now, they’re doing three or four stories high. Okay? And that isn’t any better than doing -- JJ: But do they talk about that in there? That’s what I’m saying, the insiders. LS: I couldn’t say. I don’t have any ins and outs of the city council, and our present alderman, you know, I don’t see enough of or have any bond with him, but I do 65 �know we do have a whole lot of scattered housing in our community, and a good thing about that is people do have a place to live. A bad thing about that -JJ: Scattered housing? LS: Yes. JJ: That’s what they’re trying -- LS: Yeah. JJ: So, that serves -- LS: And the bad thing about that, though, is people who were in those tall [01:08:00] high-rises who were trouble-makers, so on and so forth, thieves and whatever it may be, they’re spread all over the place. A little bit of ’em in every community, you know? JJ: So, that’s the bad part. LS: That’s the bad part because, once again, I think that they have to -- you can’t just keep piling us on top of one another ’cause, the more you do of that -- you take the problem, and you spread it more and more out. You can’t just have scattered housing every place either because that’s not a solution. JJ: So, you can’t pile people on top of each other. LS: And you just can’t take that pile down and start spreading it from here to there because I don’t think that’s really a solution. And then, those people who are not a part of those scattered housing are homeless, and, once again, with homeless people goes crime also, and we are not workin’ enough on our crime situation, you know? Penitentiaries and institution, they’re going in, coming out. They go in criminal. They come out bigger criminals. They all don’t have jobs. [01:09:00] 66 �Our young girls are coming out still. They go on the street, and they’ll be hookers. They’re babies havin’ babies. The counseling is not being very effective. We have very, very few things that are effective to the middle class, you know? (inaudible). That’s not saving anybody. That’s not giving any additional education to mothers on pre-parent of that nature. All right? We don’t have enough schooling for our young men who can’t sing and can’t become rockstars. You know, everyone can’t be Mr. Z and the rest of these guys. We have to have alternative things for these people, and that’s a serious problem right now -- I see as being serious. I see it all -JJ: Do other people see it like that? There at the job or other jobs? LS: At that job, [01:10:00] people go to work, do their job, and come home. JJ: Okay. So -- LS: Yeah. JJ: That’s what I mean. LS: Yeah. JJ: They’re not even talking about it. LS: No. No. I mean, that’s not their job. And, therefore, they don’t see how far they have to go to do what they’re doing. They (inaudible), get the check, go home. There aren’t people out there who care any more about their community more than getting (inaudible) back out. JJ: So, do they pay any attention to -- for example, if I got a job there, I got to work for this alderman that got me in there? LS: You don’t got to. 67 �JJ: You don’t have to? Okay, but, I mean, you think -- you feel you -- they did you a favor. They got you a job. You want to help ’em out. But do they pay attention to what that alderman is saying? LS: You know, patronism is against the law. JJ: Oh, no. It is against the law now. LS: Okay? JJ: It is against the law. LS: Okay? (inaudible). JJ: But I mean at that time. I should have said “at that time.” LS: That time. Any time. It’s against the law. JJ: Okay. That time, it was against the law too? LS: It is now. JJ: But they were doin’ it then. LS: You can always have -- [01:11:00] rules are made to be broken. JJ: Okay, so, against the law, but rules are being broken. I got you. I got you. So, it’s against the law, but it still exists. LS: Rules are made to be broken. JJ: Okay. So, okay. So, those people that are in there, whatever way they got in there -- I don’t care. That’s not important. What I’m saying is I just wanna know, does it affect them? Because they know people that got kicked out of Lincoln Park, and Wicker Park, and all these other people. Do they care? LS: I think your average person cares about he and his family, she and her family. If you are a person who care about other people and can lend a helping hand, I’m 68 �quite sure 90 percent of them would, and, for the other 10 percent, they wouldn’t care one way or the other. But, then again, you also find people who are comfortable in just what they are, and where they are, and what they’re doing. [01:12:00] If they don’t make that first step to help themselves, why should the next person? You know, (inaudible). If you don’t make that effort to go on that paper route so you can get a shirt for next week, so, why should I go with the paper route for you and give you the money? That’s welfare and all the rest of that stuff, you know? And then, the system also spend that money (inaudible) for me. JJ: But are you saying that all those people that got moved out of Lincoln Park, it was their fault? LS: No. Once again, as I told you earlier, that was all about money. Real estate. Real estate, you know? You see it right now, real estate. I mean, it’s a prime thing. Real estate doesn’t depreciate. Time is -- it doesn’t depreciate, but, you know, a lot of people’s hearts, and souls, and things they put their blood and sweat into, sure does -- it hurts to lose what you’ve established. Foreclosures, [01:13:00] banking. People commit suicide. I know many people who lost their houses and stuff. I seen people in our community at home. Taxes just killed them. They pay for a house for 10, 15, 20, 30 years. Their kids have grown up, graduated, and got married. They got the house to themselves, and, all of a sudden, they lose their house because they cannot afford taxes, to pay the taxes. That’s another thing that’s killing us, and that really, really hurts, you know? I pay for a house -- 69 �JJ: The taxes? LS: The house I paid for for 30 years, and the city’s moved me out, or the bank is pulling a foreclosure, and I got my heart, and soul, and sweat into that property. All of a sudden, now, I got to sell and move. JJ: Now, you have to sell or move? LS: Sell and move. I mean, they’re takin’ my property away from me. My blood and sweat for 30 years. People kill themselves. They don’t know where to go. JJ: So, you’re losing your property right now. LS: No, not me. This is my property. All right? This is -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: [01:14:00] Yeah, this is [the equation?] I’m talking about, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) you’re talking about it as an example. LS: Yeah. JJ: You know people that that has happened to? LS: Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, (inaudible) we got hundreds of thousands of people that comes through every day like that. JJ: Oh, ’cause you deal with it evictions. LS: Paperwork. JJ: The paperwork eviction. LS: Yeah. JJ: Are there a lot of --? LS: Sure. JJ: Are there a lot of evictions? 70 �LS: Sure. Hundred thousands. JJ: Hundred thousand. LS: Hundreds of thousands. JJ: Evictions. LS: Evictions, foreclosures. They’re not one and the same. One, you be evicted by your landlord ’cause you didn’t pay. Other one, the mortgage company’s takin’ back your property. But once again, you’re in the street. JJ: So, what do you think about that? LS: I think it’s a shame. I think because the bank system knew prior to you losing your property that you bought today, in four, five years, (inaudible). It’s a shame. It is. JJ: But on the other side of the coin is that people [01:15:00] have to work. They got to survive, right? LS: People should work if you’re able to. I think you should. Everything cannot be given to you on a silver platter. JJ: What I’m saying is there’s a system set up already that’s creating that mess with the 100,000 -- LS: Yes. JJ: -- people losing their -- LS: Yes. Yes. JJ: -- houses, but -- LS: They didn’t care that -- JJ: -- the people that work within that system -- 71 �LS: Didn’t care about the people on the outside. They cared about themselves. JJ: They only care about themselves. LS: Right. JJ: Okay. And they have families, so it’s understandable. Would you say, then, that they justify it? They’re saying that it’s these people’s fault. LS: To justify a thing within our political system -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: -- there has to be a very, very strong adjustment. JJ: You have to do what? LS: Within our political system, there has to be a very, very strong adjustment made. JJ: Meaning what? What do you mean? LS: That means, in Congress, people who go out and they [01:16:00] make the laws, the banks, you know, they have to look at other alternative ways of not takin’ people’s property, and their homes, and stuff, man. There has to be somethin’ -you can’t just go and take a person’s life away from them like that. You really shouldn’t. I know people who committed suicide ’cause they lost their property. It’s a shameful thing to be done. It really is. JJ: You know personally people that have done that? LS: Yeah. Commit suicide. JJ: You’re not commit suicide, right? LS: You can’t foreclose on this. JJ: (inaudible). 72 �LS: But it’s really a shame, you know? But it’s got to get better before it gets worse off. Fingers crossed and pray [01:17:00] it’ll get better for people. JJ: It’s getting better? LS: It should get better. JJ: It should get better. LS: No, ’cause homeless is not a pretty thing. I see it around all the time. Imagine seein’ or imagine bein’ the person who hasn’t had a bath in two or three weeks, or people you see walking down the street, eating out of trash cans, or people who are so depressed, they just don’t give (inaudible). JJ: Have you seen anybody that we grew up with that is homeless? LS: I’ve seen it personally, so yeah. I live down little far from (inaudible) neighborhood there, so I don’t get around there as much as I used to or anything. Yeah, but I’ve seen people, and it’s because they do not want to do. JJ: That grew up when we grew up? LS: Mm-hmm. It’s ’cause they’re in a valley of bein’ content. They aren’t trying. I guess they are burnt out. They gave up, and they just don’t want to be. JJ: They want to stay homeless? LS: Well, that’s their choice. That’s their [01:18:00] choice. You know -- JJ: So, someone that wants to stay homeless -- do you think they have a problem, or no? I mean, maybe -- LS: I’ve been homeless. Okay? And I didn’t stop goin’ back and forth, knocking on doors, ’til I got another job, and I’ve seen people. If you’re determined to succeed or not be homeless, sky’s the limit. There is a way. All right? If you are 73 �in that valley of comfortability and you want to stay there, your choice. If you want to do better for yourself, you can. Once again, this is America. Education is a thing that one needs, and I think we’ve all been educated to the point we know that we can do better each and every day of our lives if we want to. JJ: Okay. So, you said you’ve been homeless. [01:19:00] What made you homeless? LS: System. JJ: The system? LS: And I used the system to fight back. Fight back at the system. JJ: What do you mean, the system made you homeless? LS: I have bad health, and, with that time period, I became homeless. JJ: Because of the health? LS: Because my health made me, at the time, not be able to work, and I was evicted. JJ: So, you lost your job, and then you got evicted. LS: Yeah. I lost my job with 9/11 also. JJ: What is it? LS: 9/11. JJ: During 9/11? LS: Yeah. JJ: You lost your job. LS: Yeah. I’m an electrician at the time, and God blessed me once again. You want to do better? You can. (inaudible). JJ: [01:20:00] How long were you homeless? 74 �LS: For quite some time. JJ: A few months? Years? LS: No, no. Not years. About maybe four, six months, perhaps. JJ: So, I mean, what does that mean, you were homeless? LS: That means I didn’t have a place to go and lay my head at nighttime. I had to go to someone’s house every day to shower. I had to stand in soup lines to eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That means, at nighttime, I slept on blankets and air bags on the floor. I slept in Lincoln Park. I had no income. JJ: With air bags and stuff on the floor in Lincoln Park? LS: I had slept on air bags in churches, floors. JJ: In church, okay. LS: Yeah. I slept on the ground in Lincoln Park. Smelly ground. Piss. Yes. JJ: With a blanket or without a blanket? LS: Whatever I had. (inaudible). JJ: But you ate at soup kitchens? LS: Yeah. If I can get up, come back, next person can too. JJ: [01:21:00] How’d you get out of that? LS: I never wanted to be in to start with, so, therefore, from the time it happened to me, the next day, I started pushin’ to get back on my feet. JJ: So, the very next day, you said, “I’m gonna get out of this.” LS: Never felt I really should have been there, bro, got to say. You can’t -- JJ: So, you said, “This is not me. I’m gonna (inaudible).” 75 �LS: No. It’s not. It wasn’t me. It wasn’t me. All right? And I wasn’t about to stay that way. That was not my zone of comfortability. JJ: So, the very next day, what’d you do? LS: Knock on doors. Knock on doors of those politicians, people that I felt -- knocked on doors, factories, passed out resumes, goin’ different places, lookin’ for jobs. JJ: So, you’re sleeping in Lincoln Park or in the homeless shelters. LS: Mm-hmm. JJ: But then, you’re going out to knock on doors of the politicians -- LS: The politicians, the factories, submitting resumes, and, once again, still, volunteered a little bit of time -- I felt, still, you know, I had something to offer other people. JJ: Well, that’s good. I mean, you [01:22:00] kept going. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, that definitely -- LS: Yeah. Wasn’t about to kill myself, man. (inaudible). JJ: Somebody else has to (inaudible). LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Okay. That’s good. That’s good. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, it’s rough times. So, then, you feel you understand what other people go through, then? LS: Oh, yeah. ’Cause you have to be a fightin’ man to survive. You got to survive. You give up, man? You’re a loser, and I never thought of seeing myself as being 76 �a loser. All right? You can lose the (inaudible) battle, but you’re gonna win the war. JJ: But you’re the winner, so you (inaudible). LS: I’m gonna win the war, bro. JJ: You believe in the war. LS: The war. You got the battle here, but the war is here. So, I lost this little bit here, but I’m gonna win (inaudible). I’m back on my feet. I have education. Education opens doors for you. JJ: But what kind of issues would get somebody to even think, homeless? I mean, were you going through a divorce or something, or --? LS: [01:23:00] No, I told you. I have a -- JJ: You were going through the health -- LS: The system that we pay into all the time deceived me, among other things. It wasn’t -- JJ: You lost your job. Your health -- LS: Well, look at it like this. 9/11 came. (inaudible) lost my job, amongst other things. JJ: I don’t understand what the connections were with 9/11. LS: Here. 9/11 came. Being electrician, a whole bunch of us got laid off, and there was not job. There was no place to go for a job. There were -- JJ: Oh, you were a electrician then. LS: Yes. JJ: And there was no jobs because of 9/11. 77 �LS: Yeah. Hundreds thousands lost their jobs. JJ: Okay. So, that’s when you lost your job. LS: That was a time of being homeless. Other than that, happened to me once-- JJ: But, being an electrician, couldn’t you get jobs at the neighborhood? LS: No. It’s not that easy. I’m a union electrician. Okay? Side jobs just don’t do it. You got to have skills for that stuff also, [01:24:00] and I have a card in my pocket still to this very day. Okay? But that’s a skilled profession. So, therefore, if you use your skills to your advantages, yeah, you’re gonna survive somewhat. You’re not back making 30, 40, 50 dollars an hour, but, you know, 10 dollars is just as good as that. We got nothing. There’s always ways to survive. JJ: Okay. So, now, you understand the homeless issue. LS: Been there. Yes. JJ: Okay. You’ve been there. So, you know, people were getting kicked out of Lincoln Park, and Wicker Park, and all these places. That created -- LS: Some homeless -- JJ: And the houses were real expensive, and, you know, somebody gets sick, they can’t pay for that. LS: Well, you know, I think, in the days that we’re speaking of, back in the ’60s, it wasn’t as horrifying then because welfare wasn’t all that bad like it is now. You can always go to a hospital, Cook County or whatever it may have been, and you would [01:25:00] survive somewhat. Homelessness today -- man, there’s about hundreds of thousands, I would say, bro. They got little groups now. They got nicknames, and they hang together and stuff. I don’t ever remember anyone -- 78 �JJ: What do you mean, they got nicknames? LS: The LB, the Latin Bombs. JJ: What, the homeless have nicknames? LS: Oh, yeah. Little groups, yeah. JJ: They, themselves, put the names, or --? LS: I wouldn’t know. JJ: So, they call themselves the Latin Bombs? LS: The Latin Bombs, you know. You got -- JJ: So, they got clubs of homeless people. LS: Yes. JJ: That’s what you’re saying. They got -- LS: Yeah. JJ: -- gang members -- LS: Groups. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: -- that are -- LS: And they will fight in the soup line. They’ll push you. I mean, I’ve seen this. I’ve been in that line. JJ: Oh, I see what you’re saying. The gangs -- LS: They have a little gang within themselves. They protect themselves, and they go to the churches, and then the churches -- those people (inaudible). They go there every other day or every day. They’re living there. They get their showers, or they help them -- they [01:26:00] got breakfast in the morning, 6:30, seven o’clock, and they have to be thrown on the streets. They look for a job or 79 �whatever they’re gonna do. They come into the Salvation Army, other places, and they get lunch, and they’re in there 6:30, seven o’clock at nighttime to get a shower and a warm meal. Been there. And those who have substance abuse problems, they have programs for them also if you want to be a part of those things. If you do not want to be a part of those things, well, then, you’re on the outskirt again (inaudible). JJ: Okay. You said you’ve been there. So, I mean, you saw that. LS: I was part of it. JJ: You were part of it. LS: Yeah. JJ: But you were able to use it to the advantage of getting the heck out of there. LS: Sure. I took advantage of everything there was that I felt that helped me, benefit me, and -- JJ: What were some of the things that you did to your advantage? LS: Use my [01:27:00] skills. JJ: Use your skills. Okay. What are your skills LS: People skills. Help other people. JJ: (inaudible). LS: People skills. JJ: People skills. LS: Help other people do things. All right? Knock on doors, you know? There was a time I used to go to the daily workers things, and you get your daily pay, and you 80 �saved up every day. DHS gave me 120 days to have a job and apartment. Did that. I stayed also YMCA, the Central Park YMCA there. JJ: Okay, so, they got you -- LS: I went and asked for help. I wasn’t too ashamed to ask for help. JJ: Okay. You weren’t ashamed to help -- LS: No, not ashamed to ask for help. JJ: So, you’re saying some people were ashamed to ask for help? LS: There are agencies who will provide help for you if you seek. It’s not like saying - JJ: But some people are ashamed to? LS: I don’t know if they’re ashamed or not, but I’m not used to sleepin’ in the street either. JJ: Okay, so, it’s either -- LS: I [01:28:00] still -- JJ: -- sleep on the street or ask for help. LS: I feel, with the skills I have, I can find a job, and I went and asked for help, and they sent me to a place that would give me help, and, through my time, from seven in the morning ’til (inaudible) at nighttime, I knocked on doors. I went places. I took resumes, seeking jobs. All right? I did little side things that I had to that were my skills. If there was a carpenter that needed help that day, I go out, whatever it may have been, and I saved my little money, and, within that 120 days they gave me to get myself settled, I was out of that place in 90 days. 81 �JJ: Okay. So, you got out of there in 90 days. By the fourth month, you were doing better. LS: I asked for the extra month to save money so I can get a car. JJ: Okay, so -- LS: And they tell me (inaudible), and they allowed me that month. JJ: Okay, so that was good. LS: (inaudible). JJ: So, you had some skills. LS: Everyone has skills. It’s a matter of using them to your advantage. JJ: Everyone has skills? LS: Everybody has skills. JJ: Some people -- I mean, everyone [01:29:00] has skills? Okay. That’s what you’re saying? I’m not arguing. LS: Everybody has skills. JJ: Okay. So, what do you mean? So, why are some people still there? LS: They don’t want to utilize them. You know, by having skills, we all can listen. We talk. Use the hammer. (inaudible) skills. (inaudible). Skills. JJ: Everybody has skills, but some people can see them, and some people can’t? LS: Some people don’t want to use their skills, and some people -- JJ: Oh, some people don’t want to use them. LS: Don’t want to use them, and others who are content with freeloading the system. JJ: Okay. So, that’s good. So, I think that’s -- but, I mean, I still see some -- you know, for example, there’s some people -- in Michigan, they cut welfare, right? 82 �And then, I knew some people that didn’t -- they had [01:30:00] skills, good skills, but they didn’t -- their English wasn’t that well. I mean, so, that hampered them. That got them in -- and I felt very sorry for them because they were on welfare, and, now, they got cut off overnight. LS: You know -- JJ: Which means that they were gonna be homeless. LS: It didn’t just happen overnight, though. JJ: No, no, (inaudible) -- LS: They knew it was comin’. They knew it was comin’. JJ: Well, no. They talked about it, said it was coming, but what could they do? Did that happen here, or no? LS: Well, no. Welfare still exists here, but it’s a matter of time. I know people who say, “Oh, yeah, go ahead and (inaudible). Welfare’ll take care of you.” And I’m like, that’s my tax money. Person freeloads, you know? I’m very conscious of stuff like that. I support anybody who work. We support lots and lots of thousands of peoples on social security and on welfare. Now, I was sick. (inaudible) give me nothin’ while I’m out from my surgery. [01:31:00] When I have a problem, I’m over-educated or I make too much money. That’s my own money, you know? But, for a person who doesn’t really need or don’t -- they get it just like that. I think that’s unfair also. JJ: So, you’re saying everybody’s the same. Everybody has skills. LS: Everyone has some type of a skill. JJ: Everybody can make it if they want to. 83 �LS: Everyone has some type of -- [not?] everyone can make it, but -- JJ: You don’t see that, sometimes, they just cut people off? LS: Sure. JJ: Okay. Like, when they -- LS: Sure. There are people who get cut off ’cause you didn’t dot the i or cross the t. Yeah, I think I’ve seen that too. JJ: Okay. So, they got cut off, but it’s their fault? LS: Not always, no. JJ: Okay. I’m just -- LS: Not always. No, no, no, no, no. And, you know, the system’s made to help you, and the system’s also made to put a cork in your screw. That’s what you -[01:32:00] the guidelines. Check ’em good, you know? Cross those i’s and dot those t’s. That person -- “I got my job. (inaudible).” Seen that happen lots of times. Go to church. Get educated. Help somebody else out. (inaudible). This is America, man. This is America. There’s no other country in the world like this one. I think we all know that. And still, yet, education is the key, and, for those of us or them who can’t get a good education and who have problems speaking our language (inaudible), don’t sit down on the corner and say, “Yeah, I got to make something here.” Use it. Grow. Be hungry for knowledge. You can’t lose. And, if you slip, get back up and go again. That’s my belief. JJ: Okay. [01:33:00] Any final thoughts? LS: Yeah. God bless us all, man. JJ: What is it? 84 �LS: May God bless us all. JJ: May God bless us all? LS: Yeah. JJ: That’s it? LS: You ain’t gonna change. I ain’t gonna change. (laughter) JJ: Okay. All right. Thanks. END OF AUDIO FILE 85 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d42b8ef7025ca77c6d3d8df30d4cc5a.mp4 1dfb4f3e4ce481f0b2188182d1d411f6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Lacey Smith vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Lacey Smith, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 12/14/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Smith_Lacey_2 Title A name given to the resource Lacey Smith video interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Lacey Description An account of the resource Oral history of Lacey Smith, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 12/14/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ca91692cd343045d1ac3ff1bb7765e2.pdf 7f5d56a5f52107db4c2137c69a5e74b0 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Lacey Smith Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/19/2012 Runtime: 01:37:30 Biography and Description Oral history of Lacey Smith, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on October 19, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript LACEY SMITH: I wasn’t a brother or something. I was a cuz. I was a cuz, all right? I was a cuz. I don’t know how it grew out the way it did, but, I mean, we’re cousins and I guess that’s pretty much because of the groups that they -(break in audio) JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Okay, Lacey. Where were we at? Where were we at? We were talking about -LS: About how -- JJ: Oh, we’re still in (inaudible). LS: Developing a coalition and stuff. Yeah, you know, like different approaches to -- JJ: Yeah, we had different approaches. LS: -- the problem, and we never argue and fight. Sometimes (inaudible) one another, but, you know, the cause was still for people in the community, and that’s, I think -- JJ: Yeah, you guys were doing your own thing with the youth. LS: Well, you know -- JJ: We were trying to do our thing. LS: You were doing your thing as far as what you were doing, but -- JJ: What did you think when the People’s Park was taken over? LS: No problem. I went to the festivals and stuff you know what I’m saying? You had the carnival and stuff there, you know, for a whole week and everything. No, I mean, you’re in our corner. (inaudible) on the corner, remember? 1 �JJ: (inaudible). LS: No, there was no problem. [00:01:00] It’s about doin’ things that are positive for the community. I doesn’t have to be down with a particular ethnic group. The community as a whole because, when there’s a mixture, things go good. It’s when you don’t have a mixture, and you don’t want this colored skin there or this particular person there, that’s always a problem because there’s somebody else - “I wanna be with them.” The same as when I came to St. Michael’s. There were people who you can go to their house and feel comfortable ’cause they’ll take you in?, and there were people like, I don’t know how to explain it, “Get that nigger out of my house,” or, “I don’t want my kids hanging out with them, Puerto Ricans, and spics, and stuff like that.” And the first person their daughter married was a boy -- “I don’t want that kid” -- they fell in love with them. And, at one time, now, Halsted was a lot of hillbillies and stuff like that, you know? And they, once again, also -- they may be white in skin, but they’re black as far as their culture and the way they’re raised, and they hung out with us and stuff like that. The same -- they [00:02:00] ate rice and beans, and their daughter married a Puerto Rican or vice versa. Once again -- JJ: So, there was that kind of stuff going on in the neighborhood, or --? LS: Yes, it was goin’ -- I mean, everyone is not prejudiced, and everyone wasn’t. JJ: So, “Get him out of here.” LS: Hey, I ain’t gonna fight ’em. Might as well join ’em. (inaudible). No, and there were other things that united us, drag racing especially. JJ: Oh, yeah, talk about the -- 2 �LS: (inaudible) drag racin’. I had been in a whole bunch of different things, which has made me a better person, once again. JJ: What was the drag racing? Where was that --? LS: Clybourn. JJ: Okay, and how was that? How was that? LS: It was good. You know, we raced the cars (inaudible) Wooly Bully. JJ: Wooly Bully, yeah. LS: Yeah, and we had the car with the -- JJ: Who was the other one? LS: The other car we had? Chances Are, that was us. JJ: Chances Are? LS: Chances Are. That was Wilson’s car, Louie, (inaudible) -- JJ: Okay, so everybody had a car -- different names? LS: Oh, of course. JJ: And then, we went on Clybourn, but how do you -- LS: When we challenge -- JJ: -- (inaudible) it’s against the law? How did you [00:03:00] do that? LS: So, it was crossing the street against the light. All right? Been goin’ drag racing in those -- JJ: Sometimes, there were cops there. LS: And sometimes there weren’t. Okay? And that -- JJ: So, was that --? LS: And that was a sport. That was a good sport. 3 �JJ: So, we had Chances Are, and who else (inaudible)? LS: Well, Wooly Bully was Tucson’s car and everything. People used to come from all around Chicago to show their car. I mean, that was a sport. You know, the best car wins, and next -- JJ: Why did they come to Clybourn? LS: Because Clybourn was a street that went straight down without interference. JJ: It was the factories -- LS: Factories was closed at nighttime, and so was Elston Avenue, and that’s what -excuse me. During the week, you work on the car. You go to work every day, and you check the -- put the new transmission in there or buy the hits for the carburetor and stuff like that. You know, (inaudible). That, once again, was little cliques also. So, we had another community. We had an awful lot of -- JJ: Right, ’cause that was a clique -- wasn’t that mainly [00:04:00] Paragons? LS: No. We had around -- JJ: Imperial Aces too. LS: Well, Louie, myself, Wilson, and Mike, Carmello and stuff like -- I mean, Carmello was (inaudible) -- Angelo. We were all part of that little clique there with Wilson and stuff like that. Then, you had Tucson there, and he had a whole bunch of the guys from the South End, which, at the time, was (inaudible) station on North Clybourn and Halsted. And then, that was a good way of unitin’ people because you got everybody, any color there, had their money and their blood and sweat in their car, and you want to perform, and the place to perform was on Clybourn Avenue on Friday night or Saturday night, and who give a doggone about the 4 �pigment of your skin with that car performing? Unity. You know? And, unfortunately, yeah, it was against the law. It’s against the law in any state, but it still happens. JJ: Yeah, but, I mean, but, usually, it wasn’t bothered. Nobody got [00:05:00] bothered. LS: Well, for a long time, it wasn’t bothered. On Sundays, we took the car out to the track because we had tested it already the night before. But, no, we’ve had some weird thing that have happened to us. No, we’ve had some people that were killed there on the strip there, you know, car rolled or some idiot stood up in front of a car and the car came by, chewed them up. Those things happen, but, as far as the safety aspect of it, it was US 30 or the Grove, you know. But, no, we ran the streets. JJ: In fact, people went to the -- LS: Oh, you know -- JJ: -- drag races. LS: You got hundreds of people, man. It was on Fullerton too, right there, off of Ogden. Yeah, hundreds and hundreds of people. JJ: Hundreds of people out there. LS: Yeah, you know, and people out there -- you run startin’, like, midnight until five, six o’clock in the morning, runnin’ from here down to 51st Street. I mean, it was a thing. JJ: You mean they would drive through the neighborhood with the cars and (inaudible)? 5 �LS: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. JJ: (inaudible). LS: No, you could tell who’s workin’ on a car?. They start it up. “Oh, someone’s workin’ [00:06:00] in the garage.” But, you know, a street machine pretty much -unless you had an exhaust on that where you can drop the headers?, was pretty much for the track-- JJ: What year was this? What year was this? LS: I don’t know. ’66, ’69, something like that. No, when I met up with Tucson, and the guys -- they were already into that, you know? I was just a follower, which also taught me those skills. All mechanics. JJ: Okay, so, you had a car too? LS: No. No. JJ: Did you just kinda work with them? LS: I hung out with the guys there. I learned about cars and so on and so forth like that, and (inaudible). I mean -- JJ: Where did you guys hang out at? LS: By the garages. JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah, right there, off Kenmore and (inaudible). Tucson’s there, you know. Then, we had the one -- Wilson. We were right there on Dayton and Armitage. No, no. Fremont and Armitage. Yeah, Fremont and stuff like that, you know. It’s a little skill, all mechanics and people from the neighborhood came by. They were cheering for you to get the car right. When you get it running, [00:07:00] they 6 �follow you around. (inaudible) some people and stuff. Other kids, you know, they admire you already from bein’ -- once again, leadership, keeping kids positive. And, before you know it, some kid’s graduating out of eight grade, high school, and he’s saved his money up, and he bought himself a car. Okay? So, I mean, everything snowball, but the thing is -- there were people, you know, always try to keep our race, our people, from growing, and that was a way of growing also. Some things you just couldn’t stop. JJ: St. Teresa’s used to throw dances too. LS: Used to throw dances, a few dances at St. Teresa’s also, yeah. Yeah. JJ: ’Cause I remember we used to go there with our cars. LS: Yeah. I mean, those were Model Ts, stuff like that, you know, in those little (inaudible). JJ: Brand new cars. LS: Yeah. Okay. See, that’s when you stay away from ’em. That was the time you stay away from ’em. JJ: (inaudible). LS: [00:08:00] But, you know, that was another learning experience, and -- JJ: But didn’t we do that? It wasn’t there? LS: I don’t think about the stuff like that. I never get involved with stuff like that. But being in the Near North, Lincoln Park area from the time I started there up until the time I married and moved out, which I was -- everybody from the community would then leave. They always would still come back. Come back to hang or you come back to visit, and, for the most part, you’ll find a lot of people that’s 7 �never grew out of the neighborhood. You know, they’re still in the same corner, and they envy you for havin’ a job. JJ: They would move out, but they came back. LS: They move out. They still come back. That’s the hangout. And there were some people -- “Oh, man, you got a job. You think you’re better than us now, huh?” Well, no, you got a family to support. Of course you’re not gonna hang on the corner drinkin’ with your money and roll dice and stuff, you know? And lot of us - I would say a very large percent of us progressed to pick a job in the city. I [00:09:00] think (inaudible), may he rest in peace also. Lot of us grew. We got families and stuff like that, you know? JJ: So, there were jobs in the city that were -- LS: Some people got jobs in the city. Some people got job with corporations and stuff like that. Can’t remember exactly -- [Nestor?], you know, he grew, and he went -- he works in Washington right now for -- I’m not gonna say which government he was with. He works for the government also. JJ: There’s a -- LS: We all grew. JJ: We got a couple governments? LS: Well, you know, there are different -- JJ: You mean different parties. LS: Different departments -- JJ: Different parties. LS: -- of the government, yeah, of the -- and -- 8 �JJ: Homeland security, you’re talking about. LS: No, not home security. I’m not gonna mention the department, okay? But everyone grew out to do things positive, and there are some who weren’t so successful, you know? And either you go with the flow or you don’t, and you can’t sit in the corner, drinkin’ wine your entire life. If you’re in the corner drinkin’ wine from the time you’re 15 years old ’til the time you’re [00:10:00] 50something, it’s definitely wrong. Okay? If you’re living in your mother’s house and you’re 50, something is definitely wrong. Okay? And we find out those people who settle down, you know, marry and have a few kids and stuff, you know, succeeded. All right? And, of course, there are some that didn’t succeed. Like you and I, two or three wives, all right? But no. But, nevertheless, though -- JJ: [Hey, you can’t put that in?]. LS: -- the drive was always there. The drive was always there to keep rollin’. Got you. All right? The drive was always there to do better, and, you know, the thing that also [still would unite?] was still about people. Okay? Although I’m not in the field of social work anymore, you know, if I was going through Cabrini-Green this very moment and I see some of my old kids, which -- I run into them all the time in the neighborhood in Lincoln Square. I’m still called Mr. Smith or Mr. BUILD, or see someone with a kid. They say, “Oh, this is the guy who [00:11:00] helped us when we were doin’ this and that,” you know? “If you were around, you wouldn’t be doin’ like this and stuff.” I told you there were -- I knew this type of person, and be a neighbor and help people. They don’t forget it. Family, individuals that you know, the guys in jail and stuff like this, going to court to 9 �represent them. “You’re in jail again? Okay, here’s my last 20 dollars.” Things like this, you know? Especially with some programs that I was involved in when I worked with youth as an advocate. You know, you represent them along with the parent in court. They don’t forget those type of things. Walter Washington, I seen not long ago. “Oh, man, Mr. Smith,” all this stuff. Joy Smith at the CabriniGreen. (inaudible). He’s now a state trooper, and, I mean, these kids have gone on to be successes, and I feel good, and I see them, and especially if they’re -oh, yeah. I remember -- yeah, used to go play football [00:12:00] at DePaul out on the side. Used to play tag football. Flag football on Saturdays and Sundays. Janice, I see every now and then in Logan Square by the eagle there. She’s still call me, “Mr. Smith.” She hugs me, you know? We call her Peanut Head now, jokin’ around and stuff, and she tells -- I met one of her kids about a month or so ago. JJ: But is that people you worked with when you were working with -- LS: BUILD. JJ: BUILD, okay. LS: Yeah, but, I mean, the Near North community also there at the time. JJ: And BUILD was a program that works with youth, the gang prevention. LS: Gang prevention, street work. All right? JJ: Street work. Street work. LS: And these same kids would know -- like, I remember I used to take kids [at 12:30, 11:50?], something like that, bring ’em up this end of town. “Oh, man. (inaudible) those people, all the --” Stuff like that. And I said, “No, (inaudible). 10 �That’s what a sport is. You go, and you do your best.” And come out, the whole bunch of them turned around in the marriage. They became good friends and stuff like [00:13:00] that. So, sports also do it for almost anything, and it eliminates boundaries. All right? So, therefore, instead of bein’ afraid to come out from Division Street (inaudible) Armitage and Fullerton. I mean, there was no problem because, all of a sudden, they know someone. You have no fear. You’re gonna come here (inaudible), would you? Because you go over there for the purpose of sports. You go there for a seminar. JJ: So, have you seen people change through that sport? LS: Oh, yes. I’ve seen many people -- some of those I mentioned to you. They’ve changed. Maybe in their heart, they may be (inaudible) or whatever it may have been, or the (inaudible), but they grew up to be a man, and me, I’m a man first. What you did 20, 30 years ago, all right? Fine. It’s in your heart, maybe, but you’re not walkin’ around, carrying that pistol. Your purpose is not to go out there and find another Puerto Rican. See what I’m sayin’? Puerto Ricans are not going out, sayin’, “I’m gonna blow me away a white boy,” ’cause a man he has become. “Oh, man, I don’t want my kids with no Black --” You know, as a matter of fact, I can’t [00:14:00] think of too many Puerto Rican families that ain’t got Blacks in ’em, and it’s not so much from the islands that deal with slavery. It’s because, right now, there’s no prejudice that I’ve ever seen, and the mixing was never a problem. So, therefore, you can find a Puerto Rican -- I’m not gonna say Latino overall, okay? I know some Latinos, they got that little thing, but Puerto Ricans, you know, you’re gonna say, “Don’t bring that Black kid home,” or, “I’m 11 �not gonna do this.” You know, they accept. I can’t think of anyone, actually, (inaudible) with their kid. “Don’t do this and that.” I never seen it. We’re a colorful race. Mixing’s no problem. He or she who has a problem with mixing really has a problem because you’re not gonna survive anyplace else outside of where we grew up here. JJ: Growing up in Lincoln Park, what other activities? We mentioned the car races. What other --? LS: Well, car racing was a sport on itself. Boxing. All right? I got boxing, the YMCA. [00:15:00] Saxton and I represent the neighborhood, and we were the neighborhood champions, you know. JJ: Saxton was there? LS: Saxton (inaudible), yeah. Saxton. (inaudible) JJ: (inaudible) who else? Who else boxed? LS: Well, Saxon and myself, pretty much. No one else held the classes well. All right? We held it at -- JJ: What about the women? What did they do? LS: Women? Well, you know, even all my work I did, I dealt with males pretty much. The women come along with the sports and stuff. I never really had too many programs for women other than the GED and typing. Okay? Better housing and stuff like that, you know, I never went into anything of that nature. JJ: No, no, I don’t mean that. What I’m trying to say on this is, like, what were some of the women involved in? LS: They were -- 12 �JJ: Not the ones you worked with but I mean just in general -- LS: Well -- JJ: -- in Lincoln Park. LS: -- as far as I can remember goin’ back, you know, I can’t recall women bein’ [involved in?] prostitution. I can’t remember that, or I have no knowledge of 00:16:00 it. Okay? Few drug dealer (inaudible) like that, you know. JJ: Drug dealing? LS: Drug dealing. (inaudible) and so on and so forth like that, but, for the most -- JJ: But not using. Just holding? LS: You know, if you’re doin’ one, you’re pretty much doin’ the other. JJ: So a few -- LS: All right? JJ: But not prostitution. LS: I don’t ever recall that. Now, I’m not gonna say they did not exist, but if it was a low profile, that’s the way it should stay in, okay? But -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Pretty much, you know, just bein’ mothers, I can think of. JJ: Okay. Mothers. LS: Yeah. I’ve seen some women (inaudible), and I could. I seen them (inaudible) and stuff, and sociables. “Look at my man,” you know? But there wasn’t a hell of a lot of that. They were -- 13 �JJ: ’Cause, I mean, they had these women groups like the Imperial Queens, and the Young Lordettes, and what other groups did they have? The Paragons had women always with ’em. LS: Yeah, Lucy and the rest of them, and even some people like that, but you know what? [00:17:00] I don’t recall them being active as far as throwin’ down, you know. They were ladies. JJ: Throwing down. No -- LS: They were just ladies, you know, like no -- JJ: They were just ladies. LS: You know, the identification with them was like we dance ’cause, you know -- and then, the rest of them girls -- remember that? They can get down. And, thanks to them Saxton and I, we were kings of the dance floor also. But as far as doing things other than just bein’ the followers with us, mothers, some became. Others who just the way became lawyers, you know, moved to other states and stuff like that. That’s the role, pretty much, I remember them as bein’. JJ: What do you mean lawyers? They became lawyers? LS: Oh, we have several ladies from the groups that are lawyers or work for -- like, I think -- I’m not sure. I think Lucy Santos. I’m not sure. JJ: Lucy Santos? LS: I’m not sure, but I think so. There’s one other person I can’t think of tip of my head, but I’ve heard that. Okay? [00:18:00] Couple -- my wife Ida, my daughter Judy, her -- JJ: Which Ida are you talking? Not Ida Miranda? 14 �LS: No, no. Ida Miranda -- no, no, no, no. JJ: Did I meet your wife? LS: You probably knew her. Judy? Judy (inaudible)’s wife? JJ: Yeah. LS: Okay, this is her little sister. JJ: Oh, her sister. Okay. LS: Yeah. All right? Her godmother is a policewoman. She’s from the neighborhood, and, excuse me, I don’t remember her name exactly right now. But, you know, we went all directions. I mean, where the grass was green is open field. Our people went there, and apply, and we conquered, which is good. That’s the way it’s supposed to be. Educated people own business and stuff. I think Juan owns a computer company, Juan [Cologne?], which was a Continental also. JJ: Oh, is he still around? LS: Yes, (inaudible). His sister Margaret with the CTA just retired. [00:19:00] Louie Laboy CTA, who just retired also. Luis Ayes, he retired. He’s in Puerto Rico. His -- JJ: Retired as a police? LS: Yeah. Pete Rivera. JJ: What happened with Pete? What does Pete do? LS: Pete -- he’s either in Florida or Puerto Rico. One of the two. I see him -- every now and then, he comes back, and he works with the Board of Election. Okay? 15 �JJ: Beau was a police, and who else? Beau, and who was that other guy, the heavyset one? They were pretty good, the -- LS: Beau just retired from the police department also. JJ: Yeah, he didn’t really bother people, but some other people that were police, and they thought they could just -- LS: I think I know who you’re speaking of. He was thrown off the force. I can’t think of his name right now, but, you know, like I said, doors are open, and we were in [with him?], and we got those jobs, whether it’s for the city, state, private, or whatever. Celso Rivera owns his own security company. Celso, once again, was a Continental also. JJ: Oh, Celso Rivera. LS: Yes. JJ: (inaudible). LS: [00:20:00] Exactly. JJ: I’m supposed to interview him. Do you see him? LS: No, I haven’t seen him in many, many years. JJ: So, he owns his own security --? LS: He owns his own security company, from what I understand. Okay? You know, we are positive people. JJ: And you said doors open up. How did doors open up? LS: Well, doors opened up -- JJ: When did that --? LS: -- because of education, one thing. Common sense is another. 16 �JJ: (inaudible). LS: Right? And the thrive, the thrive to succeed. There’s no such thing as you cannot do or, because you are that, you ain’t supposed to. Well, I think you are supposed to do, but, you know, you try it, and if it’s somethin’ where you can become a lawyer, go to school. JJ: Okay -- LS: All right? JJ: -- so, you’re saying doors open just in general. You don’t -- LS: Doors are there. JJ: You don’t mean that somebody opened the door. LS: Sometimes, someone open the door for you, take the chance of goin’ through, and there are people -- a lot of people don’t want -- everybody can’t be a cook, you know? Why should I be a cook when I can be an attorney? Why should I stay an attorney when I can become a judge? [00:21:00] Okay? And, once you’re in that school thing, you know, there’s a charm to keep going. You got your associate’s, your BA, so on and so forth. I mean, the hunger, and it turns out to be, you know, we got judges on TV. We got councilors. We have (inaudible), people in government. We can always succeed. I mean, it’s because of the individual. It’s not ’cause of the race if people won’t succeed who happen to be of that particular race. All right? And that’s what I mean by doors open, okay? Anyone who just sit back and is comfortable with being whatever is not gonna go very far. You don’t have to be Oscar -- what’s his name? The boxer. I mean, like, the name goes with the person. The person is trying to 17 �advance, and us. Name comes, and their surname is Latino, you know? And that’s a good thing. We should all -- [00:22:00] once again, the mixture. JJ: Okay. Where did you learn all these --? LS: ’Cause I felt then as I do now. Education. Learn it. JJ: I mean through the education. LS: Learn it, and go back, and use it. JJ: (inaudible) or what? I mean -- LS: Well, BUILD was the thing that helped me get that high school and that college education because, you know, like Jim used to tell us, “You can’t show me a certificate and no raise.” And that, in itself, was incentive, you know? So, come show my grades. Okay, fine. It wasn’t he was trying to choke us. He was trying to make a better person of us, and you grow, and the model of that BUILD was, as you progress, there’s young blood -- you know when it’s time to walk and the younger blood come in, and I don’t think of anyone who’s ever come through those doors and left hurting [00:23:00] or happy someone else came through. That was the purpose of bein’ (inaudible), so, when it’s time, you (inaudible) walk, you found something better than 10 dollars a month, as an example, you know, you can go in that direction. Jimmy Concilio, salesman, international, you know. Christie Maduro owns her own company. She’s promoting things. All these people are doin’ their thing, and the sky’s the limit. It’s a matter of what you want. JJ: Where did a lot of the people move to? I mean, I know that some moved to the suburbs or something like that. 18 �LS: I can’t tell you who moved to the suburbs. JJ: And how did you feel that we don’t -- that that place don’t exist no more? LS: What do you mean by that place? JJ: Armitage. LS: I don’t travel through very many times. I don’t drive anymore, and, as far as us being moved out -- JJ: That’s what I’m saying. LS: Okay. Well, you know, [00:24:00] we’ve been moved out a lot of places. Lincoln Park, Humboldt Park. As long as we don’t put into that mortar, we can always move it out ’cause, when you rent, got to go sooner or later. You got to own to be a part of, you know? You have to invest in your community. JJ: Yeah, but, I mean, we did invest. LS: But, still, when people came by, gave you the offer, you ran. How many --? JJ: No, no. I’m saying -- LS: How many from all of us in the groups that we knew bought a house? JJ: Okay -- LS: Or bought a building? JJ: No, no, but you were with the Concerned Puerto Rican Youth. That’s a good point about buying a building, but you were a Concerned Puerto Rican Youth. We were with the Young Lords. People were driving cars. I mean, you said some were lawyers, some were -- LS: They invested in someplace else. JJ: Yeah, but that neighborhood’s not there. You’re saying it was our fault? 19 �LS: Well, I’ll tell you what. Yes and no. JJ: Okay. That’s what -- LS: We didn’t have the knowledge that we should invest [00:25:00] there or we wanted to get the heck out, invest someplace else for a better future. Okay? And that’s what people pretty much did. Now -- JJ: You don’t think they pushed us out? LS: Well, yeah. We were pushed, no. We were always bein’ pushed. JJ: I mean, I don’t want to put words in your mouth. LS: You’re not putting words in my mouth. We were always bein’ pushed all the time, but you know what? Some people are tired of bein’ pushed, and, you know, “I’m not gonna pay this high rent, so I’m gonna pay rent to something that’s mine,” and they went to the suburbs. That’s sensible, in a sense. And so, people, you know, they just want to live a peaceful life, have their kids grow up a peaceful area. Now -- they had to walk on the street and, “My kid got shot,” a drive-by. I mean -- JJ: Was it like that in Lincoln Park? LS: No, but it’s nowadays. JJ: Okay, nowadays, but I’m saying -- LS: Okay? But it’s not in our community. JJ: But, when we were getting pushed out, was it like that? LS: Like, Willy Core’s brother. JJ: Core? 20 �LS: Yeah. Remember? He was shot. They stabbed him to death on [00:26:00] Fremont and Armitage. JJ: What’s his name? LS: Core. Core. Remember? They stabbed him. JJ: Oh, Core. LS: Yeah. All right? No, that was all part of us not bein’ part of the community if you may recall back. Okay? But, I mean, there were all this kind of -- JJ: That’s one death. That’s one death. LS: Yeah, I mean, but that one was one too many. Okay? That was a force away because the comments they made afterwards was (inaudible) you know. JJ: Who made the --? LS: The gentleman killed him. I don’t remember the gentleman’s name. I wasn’t there when it even happened. Came up afterwards, but, you know, that was a thing against Puerto Ricans exactly where it was? okay? No -- JJ: You mean he got killed because of -- LS: It was something he did wrong. The guy ran. The guy caught him, and he stabbed him to death. I think it was behind the building over there or something. I don’t remember the whole thing. Let’s just go on, okay? JJ: That’s Core. That’s Core, okay. LS: I don’t remember the whole story. JJ: I wasn’t sure. LS: All right? But, you know, we are [00:27:00] a race not always to be challenged, but it has to be challenged because the sky’s the limit, and we should always try 21 �to reach it. You know? And there’s nothin’ wrong with that, and the way to that, once again, is education and being educated, but, as you’re being educated, teach. JJ: So, we had one death, Core. LS: Well, we’ve had -- JJ: And you’re saying the neighborhood was gang-infested because of that, or --? LS: Well, at that time, there was identification with belonging to so-called gang. Okay? But that particular instance there, I wasn’t there for it, and I don’t wanna go any farther because I’m not gonna blow it -- proportion. JJ: Okay, what I’m asking is do you still feel that, because of the gang and all that, that’s why we left? LS: I don’t think it’s because of the gang. I think of the person that’s being prejudiced. I don’t remember anyone tell me about gang. He was just a comment [00:28:00] racist cop. He made it after he killed him. All right? And -- JJ: Oh, you’re talking about that one incident. LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay. LS: Okay? And, no, we -- JJ: A white person did that? LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay. And he was from Lincoln Park. LS: He was right there, from the bar across the street on the corner. JJ: Oh, that happened in a bar. Is this a bar fight? 22 �LS: No. Something he had done, and the guy chased him out of the bar. JJ: Okay. He did something, but it was at the bar -- LS: Yeah, but he didn’t have to kill him. JJ: Okay, but I’m talking about the neighborhood. LS: The neighborhood itself at that time was -- JJ: They kicked us out of the neighborhood. LS: Oh, yeah. JJ: I’m saying that, but what are you saying? LS: Look at it this way. Actually -- JJ: I’m putting words in your -- LS: Yeah. When I settled down my wife, I didn’t put roots there because I couldn’t afford it. We went a long ways from 50 to 75 dollars a month in rent. The rent jumped big. That’s why, if you didn’t own somethin’ and kept it up, you’re gonna lose it one way or the other. Taxes or the city, [00:29:00] or your house was bein’ fixed, you know. I mean, one way or the other. So, it didn’t really hurt for us so much to move some people, all right? But, you know, a lot of us who moved from this neighborhood went to Humboldt Park, and there are people who went beyond Humboldt Park, and that’s understandable as far as I’m concerned ’cause you want to better yourself, your family, (inaudible). Each person should want their kids growing up to be better (inaudible), and that’s why I think it still should be for those who decide to stay there, rent there, stay right there if you can afford to. And it’s hard to afford to stay in this community, and education will only help so far there. You got to have (inaudible), you know? And lot of people 23 �don’t have it. You got to remember, we are poor people. We are a poor race. Okay? I don’t think many of us are born with spoons in our mouths. Can’t think of any of us, [00:30:00] as a matter of fact, you know? And it’s a changing community, just like other communities are changing, and he or she who is not financially stable or that so-called middle class they (inaudible) ’cause they’re middle class, man, or they had those dollars for the middle class -- I didn’t make that kind of money either. But they don’t talk about lower. They talk about middle. Okay? And I’ve had it rough pretty much my whole life. (inaudible) and stuff. People will think you’re rich. Well, you know what? I am rich. I got this. I’m rich. I can think. Rationalize things. And God gave me this to use, and my parents put me through school to have that. I am rich. I’m not rich like that, though. And that can’t be taken away from you, man, really. Money come and go. This is memories. (inaudible). [00:31:00] I got the big ones up there, like the next person does, that you retain. JJ: Memories. What kind of memories? I mean, you know what I’m saying? LS: I remember all kinds of -- I remember a lot of good things, and I remember a whole lot -- probably more -- bad times, and I have been -- JJ: Which one do you want to start with? The good or the bad? LS: Well, we’ve talked about that, pretty much, though, and I don’t wanna repeat it because -- JJ: Okay. LS: All right? I want to move on. JJ: Okay. What are you moving on to? 24 �LS: This is Friday, may I remind you? JJ: You’re using up my brain. LS: Done that already. All right? But no, I’ve talked about pretty much the good and the bad as far as that goes, you know? JJ: Yeah, what --? LS: I have covered a lot of this, you know? JJ: We’re gonna need a few more minutes (inaudible). LS: We? When did we become friends? I thought we’re Puerto Rican. (laughter) JJ: [00:32:00] So, give me some final thoughts. LS: Final thoughts is -- JJ: What’s the most important thing we got to -- to let the future -- you know, just to get an idea-- LS: The future should be love your brother and love your sister. In other words, live and let live, but be a part of that livin’, and, when it comes to heritage, stick as close by home as you possibly can so your kids can see you’re there for them. When a kid does not feel he has a family at home, the next step is the street, and we know that for a true fact. JJ: All right. Let me ask you -- we went different directions. I mean, we basically were always together, but some of us went different directions. LS: You went to the bar on this corner, I went to the bar on that corner? JJ: (inaudible), but I’m talking about -- some of us fought it, the thing with the city hall, and some didn’t, and whatever, that kind of stuff, but we [00:33:00] were all from the same neighborhood. 25 �LS: Sure. JJ: And so -- LS: It was progress to us one way or the other. JJ: We cared for our neighborhood. We were proud of our neighborhood. Would you agree, or no? LS: No. I cared for the neighborhood. I came back to teach once again. I came back to help bring more kids up. All right? And there were some people that just didn’t give a doggone one way or the other, and they’re (inaudible) of sucking things out the community with them. If I was able to help provide them with something or assistance, yes, but as far as me owing them anything, I think they had the same opportunity in life as I had. Maybe not everything with education to go to a private school and stuff, but, as far -- if you’re street-wise, you’re supposed to be smart enough to know, get off the corner. Don’t be shootin’ up dope. Don’t be trying to sell dope. Don’t look for the fast lane out. Make something of yourself to represent your race. Simple. [00:34:00] That’s it. JJ: That’s it? LS: Yes, sir. JJ: Okay. LS: That’s it. JJ: That’s it? All right, that’s it. (inaudible). All right. (break in audio) P1: On completion of the interview, recording (inaudible) the recording belongs both to Grand Valley State University -- 26 �(break in audio) JJ: Say something. Testing, one, two, three, whatever. LS: Testing, one, two, three. The day is October 19, 2012. JJ: Okay, that’s -- (break in audio) JJ: Okay, Lacey, if you can give me your name and -- LS: A little background? JJ: -- where you were born or what you were -- LS: Okay. My name is Lacey Smith. My early youth years is from the Southwest Side, I guess you would say. (inaudible) Taylor Street there, the Jewtown area. And I -- JJ: Maxwell Street, Jewtown area. And, okay, when were you born, about? What year? LS: I’m born in the mid-’40s. JJ: Oh, the mid-’40s? Okay. LS: Yeah. Okay? JJ: And you were born here in Chicago? LS: Yeah, and I found out, you know, like -- JJ: So, you said you were from [00:35:00] -- you call it Jewtown? LS: Well, Jewtown was not that far away from us, okay? I lived off the Loomis area, south of Roosevelt Road, then the projects. JJ: Oh, Loomis. Oh, by the projects. LS: Yeah. And we moved over there, and -- 27 �JJ: So, in the projects, and what -- you said Loomis, but what other the street? Was it Jackson, or --? LS: No, no. The migration of Puerto Ricans first coming to Chicago were pretty much around Jackson and Loomis, around that area. Okay? JJ: Okay, Jackson and Loomis. Okay. LS: You know, and our family, we lived south of Roosevelt Road there. As a matter of fact, 13th and Loomis is where our family lived in the projects there, and we went there in the late ’50s. All right? And transferring from the school I came from on the Far West Side, I went to Medill Elementary School, which, after a while -- went from there to St. Joseph’s. St. Joseph’s -- JJ: Oh, you went to St. Joseph’s? LS: Yeah. St. Joseph’s [00:36:00] closed after my first year or so there, and we went to Holy Family, and, attending Holy Family, we found out a little bit more about more about prejudism, prejudism, prejudism. As a youth -- JJ: What do you mean, prejudism? Prejudism, what do you mean? LS: Well, Holy Family was a primarily -- a white school. Okay? JJ: This is St. Joseph’s? LS: No, St. Joseph was right in the middle of the projects there, and, whether being Puerto Rican or being Mexican, only way you knew what that meant was you was white as a sheet. Otherwise, everyone was the same. All right? But, nevertheless, you would see the Blacks pickin’ on a couple of Mexican kids who were in school, and, you know, as far as Puerto Rican, they knew of, like, the 28 �Laboy family and stuff like that, myself. We were all from the same area. Louie Laboy, his brother José, and the rest of them. (inaudible). JJ: Oh, Louie Laboy? LS: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. JJ: He was from Loomis? LS: Yeah. They lived on 14th, right there off of Hastings in the projects, right across from the school. That’s how we met. JJ: ’Cause they later lived in Lincoln Park, right? LS: [00:37:00] They moved from there up to the North Side, and I think they lived on the lower part of Sedgwick. I’m not really sure. JJ: They’re right around Sedgwick? LS: All right? I remember, though, before he went to the service, he did live right there, behind the old bank there, off Ogden there, and they put the townhouses through that. JJ: Right, I remember Ogden. Yeah, that was a big -- LS: Yeah. Okay. You know, and -- JJ: So, Ogden, and that’s by Madison, isn’t it? LS: No. Ogden -- right here by North Avenue, down the street from the -- JJ: Oh, by North --? LS: Yeah, by the YMCA there, the Ogden YMCA. JJ: Oh, that’s where they lived? LS: They lived not too far away from that, yeah, you know, and that’s how I -(inaudible) the boys, I met them in the projects there. We’re third, fourth, fifth 29 �grade and so on like that, so that’s back -- even probably like ’55 or so. So, we migrated to the North Side. The rest of the Puerto Ricans (inaudible), and I say, after Puerto Ricans left, I live, work, and survive for the Latin and Puerto Rican cause. Okay? So, therefore, (inaudible) identification of me, I am always gonna say I’m Puerto [00:38:00] Rican, and I always will. Wife, kids, environment, jobs, everything that way. Okay? And -JJ: What was your mom and dad’s name? LS: My mom’s name is Lucille. JJ: Lucille? LS: Yeah. My father’s name is Lacey, which I’m after. JJ: Lacey? LS: Yeah. JJ: Okay, but were they born in Chicago too, or no? LS: My mother’s from Mississippi, and my father, of course, is from Puerto Rico. Okay? So, I go, you know, on the lower side of, as they say, you go with your father’s -- JJ: So, your father was Puerto Rican? LS: My father’s Puerto Rican. Okay? But there’s this long story behind that, and also as far as my last name, okay? But, in the interim of growing up on the North Side, I found there was more prejudice up there than there was on the Lower Side, while living in projects because -- JJ: Now, did you learn Spanish from your father? LS: Spanish is something you had to pick up as you went along -- 30 �JJ: As you went along. LS: Because, in the household, that wasn’t a main language as far as having it mixed and stuff like that. No, it was pretty much Black always and everything, you know? And, for the few family members that -- they’d come to our house and stuff -- either [00:39:00] were afraid to come to the projects or, you know, they were on the outside. So -- JJ: Well, your father spoke Spanish in the house. LS: Not very, very -- no. To whom? All right? So, my interest of knowing the other side -- I grew up thirsty for finding out cultures, language. JJ: Right, ’cause you grew up with Puerto Ricans all your life, right? LS: All my life, pretty much, but the mixture in the projects -- there was pretty much Black, okay? And the only time -- JJ: You got the same problem I got (inaudible). LS: Well, my biggest problem was, like, when crossin’ Taylor Street, I would get my tail kicked by Italians for being Black, and, going back across Roosevelt Road, going to the projects, I got my butt kicked for being Latin, you know? And the most time there we were really blending in with the Blacks there was because it was sports. And, as a matter of fact, Mingo was from the same area, and so was Joe [Ramos?] also. JJ: Oh, Mingo’s from there too? LS: Down from the project area also. JJ: From the projects over there by Taylor? 31 �LS: No, south of it. In the middle of South Roosevelt Road there, [00:40:00] between Roosevelt and 15th Street. JJ: Right, okay. Those (inaudible). LS: Okay? And -- JJ: That’s where Mingo came from? LS: (inaudible), yeah. And -- JJ: So, the Laboys were from there? LS: The Laboys were from the [doghouses?] there. We’re in the row houses there, and Joe [Ramos?] was on my street. (inaudible) was there, but we all met up coming to the school. JJ: Were there a lot of Puerto Ricans there at that time? LS: Oh, yeah, you because, in the ’50s and ’60s, low-income -- JJ: This was early ’50s? LS: Mid-’50s, something -- yeah. Low-income housing always. Rent was like 45, 55 dollars a month, and they put -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah. I think Mingo was on 15, 10, something he lived in. I’m not sure. So, he was in the high rise, and we’re from the lower part of the projects. Anyway, we really didn’t unite until after we were up in the North Side. Okay? And -- JJ: So, you didn’t know each other then. LS: We knew each other, but we weren’t tight. JJ: You weren’t united. 32 �LS: Yeah. You know, we went to school together. Once in a while, we’d play in the schoolyards at lunchtime and stuff like that, but, as far as hangin’, no, we didn’t do. Okay? Our hangin’ became -- JJ: Now, was that the only place you grew up at when you were [00:41:00] younger? LS: Pretty much, as I can remember. That’s where my independency, some would call, came after four, fifth grade. You know, you can go places, and the parents wouldn’t all that worry about you except for, being in the projects, there was always a problem because you had the tall houses, the flat houses, the doll houses, and that created a problem within itself. There were times you can’t turn that corner. You can’t leave the block, and that’s the way we were, so, therefore, seeing some of your friends after school was almost impossible. School was the place that you met one another. All right? But, for those of us or them who moved away, we saw each other in another neighborhood, community. We were glad to see one another, and, therefore, that gave us that unity. All right? And that occur -- JJ: Was this before the university was there? LS: Oh, the university was part of the thing that took a lot of the people out of the community ’cause they were starting to build it [00:42:00] by that time, so it displaced a whole lot of people. JJ: So, what do you mean? LS: The expressway came through, first of all, to take people’s houses, and the university came through, took houses. JJ: What do you mean? 94? 33 �LS: Hmm? JJ: 94? That expressway? LS: 94 came through, yeah. JJ: So, where did people drive before? LS: There was no expressways coming through there. There weren’t any expressways at all coming -- 94, none of that stuff was there. Expressways were a new thing coming through Chicago. JJ: You’re talking about 1950, then. LS: I’m talking about in the mid-’50s. There was no so-called named -- Eisenhower was being built -- JJ: Oh, the Eisenhower -- LS: -- (inaudible) -- JJ: Oh, the Eisenhower. LS: -- was being built, and the Dan Ryan thereafter was connected with it. JJ: Okay, but it was the Eisenhower that wasn’t built. LS: Eisenhower, I believe, was pretty much in place, and I could be wrong about this, but I remember the most about the Dan Ryan going through. JJ: Okay, the Dan Ryan, the 94. LS: Yeah. I remember the most about that because -- JJ: So, that was being built. LS: Yeah, that was being built, you know, [00:43:00] and, at the same time that was going through, U of I also had the campus bein’ built there also. JJ: So, did that divide the neighborhood? 34 �LS: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It sure did, no, because, for those Latins who live east of Halsted had no place to go, so they had to relocate, and, for the Blacks -- JJ: Oh, so, the expressway -- there were Latins living there. LS: Oh, yeah. There was Latins in there, all the way -- going up by -- I would say as far as Jackson, going up pretty much there. All right? On that side. We still have some family homes and stuff over there. JJ: So, they lived east of Halsted. LS: They live east of Halsted. They live west of Halsted. They live right there on Taylor Street. They live on Morgan -- JJ: On Halsted? Right around Halsted? LS: It was scattered. Everyone was pretty much scattered. JJ: Okay, so -- LS: But, you know, the main location was pretty much down Jackson. JJ: Jackson was the main street? LS: Yeah, pretty much. Latinos were there and everything. All right? JJ: ’Cause they used to go down Madison, though, [00:44:00] so Madison was -- LS: Madison area, as a matter of fact -- speaking of Madison stuff -- JJ: You said down Madison, but they meant Jackson too. LS: Madison, Jackson, all that same area. Adams and stuff. That was a real, strong, pretty much, Black and -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah. You know, as a matter of fact, I can still think -- JJ: This was in the mid-’50s. 35 �LS: This was the ’50s, yeah. That was -- JJ: So, that was Black and Latino. LS: Yeah. There were those -- JJ: And there was no expressway at the time. LS: There was no expressway. The expressway was comin’ through, and this -- JJ: And that divided up and displaced people. LS: That displaced people altogether, you know? It wasn’t so much divided us because that area was predominantly Black, as it was, the Italian side was still pretty much as it was. JJ: Where was the Italian side? What area? LS: Well, Taylor Street there. Flournoy. Harrison was pretty much mixed, and Lexington and stuff like that. That’s where, pretty much, the Italians were. All right? They really didn’t go across Roosevelt Road. They stayed in that little area right there, goin’ by Morgan, Aberdeen, back to Halsted. In between the Blue Island Street there, [00:45:00] which no longer really runs that far. Racine. In that area right there, you know, and the Pompeii School, which is no longer in existence, but that was the area, and, pretty much still, now, somewhat is. All right? Although they pretty much moved out much farther west. And, as I said, you know, goin’ -- JJ: Where were the Mexicans? LS: Mexicans were pretty much goin’ farther southwest, 18th Street. JJ: Oh, they were 18th. LS: 18th Street, and they went down to Halsted, and they went -- 36 �JJ: You said they were on Taylor too. LS: There were some, but there weren’t a whole, whole lot. JJ: But there was Puerto Ricans then. LS: There was a mixture on Taylor Street one time, pretty much, you know, and -- JJ: ’Cause I know they had a Spanish Mass at St. Francis. LS: St. Francis of Assisi’s Church still stands today. That was always Mexican church. All right? You had your Spanish -- yeah, right. Holy Family had -- I guess you would say the majority of [00:46:00] Anglo. When we started to go there, that was a little bit of a problem ’cause there was the bleedover, pretty much. And then, the Latinos were kicked to the curb, pretty much, especially for Puerto Ricans, for sure. Okay? Mexicans were already pretty much accepted, but, being Puerto Rican, it was like saying, like, this was poison in your drink. Okay? And we were treated different. In other words, you know, we have different cultures. Okay? And that was something that divided us also. So, you pick and choose who you’re gonna be, pretty much, with, you know? JJ: Okay, so that’s important. The neighborhoods were segregated by culture. You know, divided -- LS: By force. JJ: Divided by culture. LS: By force. Culture -- Latinos -- still in the mix with Latinos and stuff, but, in between there, before Puerto Ricans were becoming so-called Mexicans, which a lot of people -- and even now -- don’t know the difference between a Mexican 37 �and a Puerto Rican or Cuban, [00:47:00] and, listenin’ to ’em arguing, I would know by dialect, pretty much. Everybody was called Mexican, okay? JJ: Okay, at that time. LS: And you could never differentiate who or what. Okay? Blacks would call you all Puerto Rican. We were kinda using spics. JJ: Okay, so they meant there were a lot of Mexicans, but it was mixed, you’re saying. LS: Mexicans were the majority, just like 18th Street is today. Okay? Anything going the other side of the (inaudible), which meant from 15th Street going down back to 26th, was Mexican. Okay? JJ: Okay. From 15th Street down? LS: Yeah, because 14th Street was dividing where the Blacks would go, all right? So, comin’ back from Jewtown, back to Ashland, section was all Black. The projects were there, which were just being built in the late ’50s. Okay? The schools -- JJ: So, the other side of the project was Mexican. LS: South. JJ: So, actually, 18th Street, there was still -- basically, that was there -- LS: [00:48:00] From the beginning. JJ: -- for a long time. From the beginning. LS: From the beginning pretty much, as far as I know. Okay? And, as I said, after St. Joseph’s School was closed, well, those of us who went to that Catholic school were automatically going to Holy Family. JJ: What year did you go to St. Joseph’s? 38 �LS: I don’t actually recall exactly, tell you the truth. Exactly, no. Late ’50s. JJ: Oh, late ’50s. LS: Late ’50s, yeah. Late ’50s, it was, all right? And -- JJ: Now, there was Puerto Ricans living around there. LS: Yeah. As I said, (inaudible) -- JJ: In the projects. LS: In the projects. (inaudible) family from there -- I mean, (inaudible). I mean, they lived in the projects. JJ: Okay, but they came from Roosevelt too. LS: What do you mean by “came from Roosevelt?” JJ: I thought they came from Roosevelt. LS: They lived in the projects from day one. JJ: Oh, those projects. LS: The projects I lived in, the same -- I lived in the Robert Taylor. JJ: Oh, you’re talking about Robert Taylor. LS: Robert Taylor. Okay? Robert Taylor, which was [00:49:00] called ABLA Homes. You had the seven stories, you had the fifteen stories, and they’re row houses, so that was the projects in between Ashland and Halsted and from Roosevelt -well, after they put the ABLA Homes there, you would pretty much say from Taylor Street back to 15. JJ: ABLA Homes? LS: Yeah, that was for three or four story houses. All right? That’s where Jane Addams, I think they call them. 39 �JJ: Oh, Jane Addams. LS: Jane Addams, yeah, and then, on the other side, south of Taylor there, Racine, they’re called the Cabrini, all right? Projects. Okay? Not the Cabrini-Green, but the Cabrini. Mother Cabrini, after the saint. So, that was pretty much, you know, where we were. We didn’t hang out as groups or any things like that. We was pretty much scattered, but we were young. Really, I don’t think I really knew much more about being called Puerto Rican and spic and stuff until we actually -probably might be [00:50:00] my eighth grade or so, perhaps, but one thing I would never forget -- JJ: And what school were you -- then? LS: I was in Holy Family. JJ: Holy Family? LS: Yeah. JJ: Now, Holy Family’s on the West Side? LS: Holy Family’s right next door to St. Ignatius. JJ: I don’t know where St. Ignatius is. LS: Okay. Main Street. Roosevelt. JJ: Main Street, okay. Roosevelt. LS: Okay? And goin’ to Blue Island, there. Okay? To this very day, I can never forget how hard they made things for -- JJ: That community was there for a while there. That’s the community they said was there from the ’40s, the Puerto Rican community there. 40 �LS: The Puerto Rican community was Jackson. All right? They went across in the area right there. All right? But, when the university came, anything that was Latino there lost out. Lookin’ from -- JJ: So, from Jackson south. LS: Jackson is pretty much south. JJ: Right, but Jackson goes east and west. LS: Jackson goes east and west, but you have Monroe, Adams -- JJ: But then you had the highway. You didn’t have the highway. LS: The highway is what [00:51:00] dispersed everyone, pretty much. JJ: So, where the highway is, the Eisenhower, that was Puerto Rican? That’s what you’re saying? LS: There was Latinos there. It was a very good mixture. Very good mixture. All poor. Okay? No one there was really, really rich. All the poor. Blacks, Latin, and a few whites. Okay? But the thing I will never forget is from leaving from St. Joseph, going into Holy Family there, I had a very, very hard time. You know, I’m not a real big smiler. Never have been. Okay? But I recall how prejudiced the nuns were, and it’s hard to believe somewhat, you know, people of the robe being prejudiced. They do exist. High school, preschool. JJ: But, I mean, did they say something to you, or --? LS: Say something -- you were treated horrible. I remember how I was kept after school, how, on the weekends, I was given a thing called JUG. [00:52:00] That was where they made you write 500 times a sentence on the board, so you left school Friday night until you returned Monday morning, that was a whole lot of 41 �work you had to do. All right? But I would never forget the time -- I don’t recall just what was said, how it was, but a nun smacked me with the old desk in the floor, and I flew a couple rows down. Okay? And I went home and told my parents. My parents came back. The nun was very upset. You know, “He doesn’t smile enough. He doesn’t do this enough.” But my work was always done. I was never a problem child. My sister got the same treatment, and several other families, the Bluestars, the Mazes, a whole bunch of us who went to St. Joseph’s, you know? And prejudism, I mean, is somethin’ that you learn automatically because there was a thing about Blacks and white. Even my friends, Raviolas. Raviolas. They lived on Racine there and Roosevelt, up top on the third [00:53:00] floor there. JJ: Raviolas? LS: Raviola, yeah, which I still see, the friends of mine. They were a Mexican family, and, you know, how they used to treat them -- it just seemed that those of us who went from St. Joseph over there, who weren’t accepted, (inaudible), like -- JJ: Now, you went to St. Joseph’s from -- LS: I went from St. Joseph’s to Holy Family. JJ: Okay. So, this must have been a different St. Joseph’s ’cause there’s a St. Joseph over by Orleans. LS: Yes, that’s totally different. JJ: That’s a different -- okay. LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: So, this St. Joseph was on what street? 42 �LS: 13th and Loomis. JJ: 13th and Loomis. LS: Right across the street from my house. JJ: I got you. That’s where I was -- LS: Okay. Yeah. And they closed that down, you know, so there -- JJ: Was there a mixed school? LS: We had somewhat of a mixture. We had Puerto Ricans there. We had a few Mexicans and stuff who live in the community and the projects. That’s a very poor area. So, when [00:54:00] they gave you places in the projects, you know, they gave the Latins there, and the Puerto Ricans and the Mexicans there, or poor, and you’re in a Black community. So, therefore, those parents who wanted so-called have their kids have a better education went to St. Joseph’s, and, after leaving Medill, and my family (inaudible) to pay the tuition for us to attend there, that’s where we ended up goin’. From far as I can remember, I liked it. I wanted to become an altar boy. JJ: You were an altar boy? LS: I wanted to become an altar boy. I never became an altar boy. You know, and you would stay after school, and (inaudible) races and stuff like that (inaudible) and stuff. It was very nice, but the difference came when we went to Holy Family. Holy Family -- it was like pick on me day every day. I still recall in the fifth grade, when they flunked me, you know? [00:55:00] And my test grades were good. Lot of things were good, but what was real, real strange about it was like when they had built a new school and took us out of the old school there, and 43 �I’m in class, trying to look at my other peers and classmates in the next grade up, and myself and two other families stayed right there, but the real, real strange thing -- and this (inaudible) to my parents and to the school. Why were they held back when, each time a question’s asked, they’re the ones that raise their hands? And the answer they came up with -- you know, it was our attitudes. Okay? With me, was because I never really smiled, and my parents went against it. JJ: So, they beat you up because -- LS: Oh, beat me. I got smacked around, stand in the corner, stay after school. On the weekends, I used to get the JUG work, myself, the Maze family [00:56:00] kids. I can’t think of every other -- Michael Perchon, some other kids right there, and one other family. I can’t really recall the name, but, you know, there were certain people that you can just see our names were just as popular as bein’ bad as the name of the school was for bein’ popular, you know? And that’s the way things went pretty much up until I graduated from that school. JJ: And what year did you graduate about? LS: ’62, ’63. Yeah. And, after leavin’ that school, I was trying to get into Ignatius on hardship, but we just couldn’t afford the tuition. Ignatius was a very expensive school. Okay? So, from there, after the first semester or so, I ended up going to St. Michael’s, which was a -- JJ: So, you moved to Old Town? LS: No. I went to school. My family still stayed there. JJ: Your family still stayed there? 44 �LS: Yeah. JJ: All right, by Loomis? LS: Yeah. My mom stayed there almost up until she died 15, 20 years ago. [00:57:00] But St. Mike -- JJ: Did she own the house? LS: No. You don’t own the house in the projects. You know better than that. JJ: Oh, that’s right. It was the projects. The projects. LS: No. When we moved there, it was like 55 dollars a month for rent, and, when my mom finally moved out to a senior citizen home much farther south, and she had the grandkids and stuff there, they charged her like 400-something bucks a month for rent. That’s a long ways from 55 dollars. JJ: But when the university came, you know, a lot of people moved out then. LS: Well, yeah. They were displaced because of the university, so, therefore, they went farther north, south -- JJ: But you stayed living there. LS: They didn’t take us out of the projects. The projects didn’t change. JJ: Right, the projects stayed there. LS: Yeah, the projects -- they didn’t move anybody out of the projects. I mean, the projects were there (inaudible) housing and stuff like that. JJ: Are they still there, the projects? LS: They’re still there with the exception of -- I guess, a decade or so back, they rebuilt them. Okay? But they’re still projects. JJ: Oh, they’re still projects. 45 �LS: They’re still projects. Okay? JJ: Okay. They’re still low-income? LS: I don’t know that for sure. Okay? You know what? I’m gonna say no, and the reason I’m gonna say no is because my baby sister is [00:58:00] in one of those - right across from Hill Street, where the Hill Street Blues -- there’s Maxwell Street Station just across there, and her rent is humungous, okay? But, like I said, we moved there in the projects in the ’50s. I think our rent was like 45 dollars a month. My sister pays (inaudible). My mom, once she had the grandkids, and then the apartment where my sister and I were raised there, the rent was like 400-something bucks. JJ: So, you went to St. Michael’s. Did you know Carmen Trinidad? LS: Well -- JJ: Carmen Rivera? LS: All your family and stuff pretty much knows (inaudible) we hung out and stuff. JJ: Did you know Carmen? LS: We all hung out. All your family (inaudible) over there and stuff. You know, and even -- and I became a Continental. You guys had your thing with the Young Lords, Continentals, the Rebels, the Imperial Aces, the Paragons, so on and so forth. JJ: What group were you in? ’Cause everybody was in a group, right? LS: Yeah, yeah. Continentals. JJ: You [00:59:00] were in the Continentals? LS: Yeah, and Danny, José, Jimmy, stuff like that, (inaudible), yeah. 46 �JJ: (inaudible). LS: You know, we were all -- JJ: So, did you move in that area at all, or you were just --? LS: No, I was still livin’ at my mother’s house. JJ: You just hung around there? LS: Yeah. No, I -- JJ: So, you would take the bus every day? LS: Every day, I take the Number 37 bus from Taylor and Loomis all the way to the North Side, every single day. JJ: To Halsted? LS: Hmm? JJ: Taylor and Loomis? LS: Taylor and Loomis. I wait -- JJ: At that turn? LS: Well, that turn was at Polk Street (inaudible) you’re thinkin’ of. The Taylor bus went down to Polk and turned. They came out again. They took (inaudible) by Chicago, and then they turn -- they get off Orleans, and then turn again (inaudible), and they went -- drop us at North Avenue. Okay? And the thing was -- JJ: So, you went to St. Michael’s. LS: Yeah. JJ: So, what years were you there? LS: I went all four years to St. Michael’s. 47 �JJ: All four years there? LS: Yeah. You know -- JJ: Did you graduate? LS: Yes, sir. My parents wanted me to have a -- JJ: So, what was the population then at St. Michael’s? LS: [01:00:00] Well, at St. Michael’s, the population started out to be -- just prior to us goin’ there was pretty much predominantly all white. And so, when the Latinos and Blacks went there, it’s a big change, and I still remember [Brother Dunne?] -my parents came to interview, and they told us, you know, that too many Blacks aren’t attending school, and they hadn’t graduated from there, and they hoped to see me graduate. A good selling point. JJ: Okay. So, what year was this? LS: ’62, ’63. JJ: ’62, ’63. In the school itself, you didn’t have that many Latins? LS: Oh, no. JJ: But, at Sunday Mass, you had Latins there. LS: Well, I couldn’t tell you that because, on Sunday Mass, it wasn’t mandatory for us to attend. High school, things changed. Okay? It wasn’t like grade school, (inaudible). High school’s different. You didn’t have to show up, period. You know, you went to your own parish, pretty much, even if you’re with the church, but -- JJ: But I’m talking about, like, the Caballeros de San Juan. You didn’t see them? None of those? 48 �LS: [01:01:00] No. No, no. Them (inaudible) Knights of Saint John, you know, we met them -- JJ: ’Cause they were on the weekends. They would come on weekends. LS: Yeah. Come across (inaudible) and social events and stuff throughout the neighborhood, which I became a part of later on in years, you know? And, while I attended St. Michael’s, the thing that I think that got me goin’ was what really -overall really made me as a person in the community and a job in my life, pretty much, was basketball. So, I put a lot of time into basketball. You know -- JJ: For St. Michael’s? You played for St. Michael’s? LS: I played for St. Michael’s, I think, for (inaudible). We had things to do that kept us positive. Okay? You know, the socials at the Y on -- what was it? Tuesday? To the YMCA there on Ogden, and we entered ourselves into different basketball tournaments around Waller High School. We used to play after school in Lasalle schoolyard. We would play in the back in St. Michael’s [01:02:00] parking lot, the courtyard and stuff like that, and thanks to Louie, (inaudible), José, and Danny, you know, few of the other guys -- Winston and stuff like that -- that’s what we lived and died for, pretty much. But we also -- JJ: Now, you did play basketball at the Corner House? LS: Yeah. We used to whup you guys all the time. JJ: Oh, yeah. (inaudible). LS: I remember Thurman too, yeah. Yeah, Thurman married Carmen Laboy. JJ: Thurman was pretty good, now. 49 �LS: Well, Thurman, as a matter of fact -- when we were playing at the Arnold League there, Thurman did play with us for a little while. JJ: We played dodgeball. You remember playing dodgeball? LS: No. JJ: You didn’t play dodgeball? LS: No. No, no, no. You got to show (inaudible) for that. But, you know, being a member of the Continentals, we had the basketball team, and that was the other thing about having -- quote -- clubs. We weren’t gangs. Okay? JJ: So, at that time, it was clubs, right? LS: [01:03:00] We were all clubs, and our interaction was basketball, baseball, things of that nature. We weren’t out among ourselves, shootin’ and stuff like that. Rebels, never fight and stuff. They went to school together. The Young Lords, the Imperial Ace -- I mean we weren’t fighting among ourselves. We’re at the socials at the Y. We’re at the socials at the church, so on and so forth, and Paragons, Aces, the Latin Eagles and stuff like that, you know? We didn’t fight among ourselves. We were clubs, and our competition was on the baseball field, on the basketball court and stuff like that. We weren’t gangs. The community labeled us as that, but, also, as the community labeled us, there were people in the community who (inaudible). The Corps. That’s why there were conflicts, you know? And, as we all know, pretty much, the St. Michael’s Drum and Bugle Corps was a choir, which turned into a gang. JJ: They turned into a gang. 50 �LS: Okay? And, [01:04:00] seeing they were the big white group of the community, they challenged, you know], and we had a union among ourselves, but, therefore -- Drummer Boys. We defend ourselves, so, you wanna call us a gang, we defend ourselves. It was Latinos, and we didn’t fight among ourselves. They came against us. We stood together. Okay? But that was the biggest challenge, and the police department, of course. JJ: So, they had a gang, and then they attack, and that’s the only reason -- LS: Well, that’s why we were labeled -- JJ: -- the Latinos attacked back. LS: Yeah, we fought. You had to defend yourself. In those time and ages, us bein’ the underdog at all times -- JJ: So, you’re sayin’ the Latinos didn’t have a gang. LS: In the clubs I just mentioned to you, we weren’t gangs. Continentals certainly weren’t gangs. Our biggest thing was dressing. Double pleat pants, Stacey Adams shoes, the brim hats and -- you know, we dressed, and that’s our competition (inaudible). They’re clubs for us. There was nothing like, “Hey, man, you’re crossin’ our territory.” [01:05:00] You walk down North Avenue all you want to. You come to Orchard, never no problem. As you passed over through North Park, Rebels never jumped you. All right? We went by you guys. None of that stuff never occurred. We were unity as far as respect in our own community. We didn’t go out brickin’ people in the community and stuff. We didn’t rob people going down (inaudible) Street like that and everything. I think we were a positive thing more than we ever really were negative -- excuse me -- and the negative 51 �aspect came because people challenging us or try to keep us displaced or disorganized. Housing for the white people, 50, 60 dollars a month. For us, 175, 200 dollars. All right, move, you know? JJ: So, what do you mean? It was divided like that, or --? LS: They helped divide us like that. They -- JJ: So, was there prejudice in housing? Is that what you’re saying? LS: Yes. You know there was prejudice in housing. (inaudible). JJ: I’m just asking how you saw it, how you saw it. LS: Yeah. I saw it like that, and me [01:06:00] bein’ -- I will say a visitor because I came there pretty much to go to school, but, I mean, after bein’ involved in basketball, and softball, and things of that nature, and having all my friends pretty much there, well, I’m there seven days a week. There was always something to do, and it was never fight, or rob, or shoot nobody. As I recall still, (inaudible) guns. It was TV and stuff like that. We didn’t have any guns (inaudible). There was a brawl. I still remember, you know, in front of the Waller High School there, Oscar Mayer -- no, not Oscar Mayer. I can’t think of the name of the school. It’s the tip of my tongue. But, you know, one time, we were (inaudible) groups. Everybody stood back inside the fence right there, and they knuckled it out. JJ: That was within the group. LS: Within two groups. That’s -- JJ: Within two groups. They were just fighting it out. LS: Yeah. No, everybody stood back and watched. JJ: So, the clubs were just -- 52 �LS: We were clubs, and we still weren’t gang -- it just -- you and I had a disagreement -- JJ: So -- LS: -- and that’s the way we settled it, [01:07:00] and nobody interfered. Nobody brought baseball bats. There was no zip guns. None of that stuff. And the best man won. Everybody went the same way -- their separate ways. JJ: And did you say this was at Arnold or --? LS: It was in the Arnold yard, right there on Orchard, yeah. JJ: Around Burling. LS: Yeah. So, you know, like -- JJ: So, you’re talking about Burling and Armitage, right? There’s a little playground. LS: Well, just as you go to the entrance to the school ’cause, at nighttime, the school is closed. It was the park -- JJ: Okay. So, Arnold, and across the street was the Waller entrance. LS: Across from the Waller entrance, yes. Everybody’s there -- JJ: This was on Orchard. On Orchard. LS: Yeah, on Orchard. Two guys got in there, and they fought it out. Best man won. No retaliation, comeback, nobody shooting or 50 guys in there, you know, and stuff of that nature. We never did that among ourselves. But the thing that I really remember the most is, like, they used to pass the hot dog stand there, police come by over there, pick us up and tell us, “All you frickin’ spics,” you know, (inaudible). JJ: The hot dog stand by Halsted and Armitage? 53 �LS: Halsted and Dickens. JJ: Halsted and Dickens. LS: [01:08:00] Yeah. You know I hung there a long, long time ago. I hung in -- JJ: So, people used to hang around on Halsted and Dickens. LS: Oh, yeah. That was the Paragons, the Latin Eagles, (inaudible). JJ: And there was a hot dog stand. LS: There was a hot dog stand called George’s. Okay? JJ: George’s Hot Dog Stand. LS: Yeah. (inaudible). JJ: And everybody had credit, right? LS: Huh? JJ: Everybody had credit? LS: Well, you know, we had a bad reputation for bein’ a group there, but, then again, at that time, we would defend our turf, and that was the time (inaudible) -- JJ: So, by that time, we were going into the gang. LS: Well, we were a little more sophisticated, and we stood strong. Okay? We stood strong. All right? And I still remember, you know, to this very day, how, even hanging out (inaudible), cops come by, and grab us, and take us down to 18th District. We had to walk back past Cabrini. Even Halsted and Dickens, you know, Dickens down there, or far right (inaudible), we had to come back past the Drummer Bugle Corps right there. That, in itself, man, like, that’s prejudism. JJ: So, what were [01:09:00] some of the sections where the youth groups were? LS: Was my group from? 54 �JJ: No, what were different hangouts where the youth groups were in Lincoln Park? LS: Well, there was the Young Lords on the East Side there, north end of Weiland. Okay? JJ: (inaudible) Young Lords. LS: Yeah. Next block over or so were the Rebels. JJ: The Rebels were in North Park and -- LS: North Park. In between there, there was pretty much nothin’ until you got down to Orchard. That was us, the Continentals. JJ: On Orchard and -- LS: And North Avenue, yeah. JJ: Was the Continentals. LS: Yeah. And, as you went -- JJ: I thought the Gypsies were there. LS: Gypsies lived right there in the area too, but that’s where we pretty much were. All right? And we also, you know -- seein’ nobody owned anything, we would visit each other. For the most part, (inaudible), all of our family. Family. Cousins and everything, brothers here. So, therefore -- JJ: They really (inaudible). LS: -- there was no friction, you know? JJ: Oh, so there was families in between -- LS: Well, each group had -- JJ: A family member there. LS: Yeah. With your clique, with the cliques in there. 55 �JJ: [01:10:00] My cousin -- LS: Cousin. JJ: My cousin was a Rebel, was the president of the Rebels. LS: All right, and -- JJ: And another cousin was the president of -- LS: Of the Continentals. So, therefore, where was there friction between us? There was always a peace, you know? And, if there was a misunderstanding, it had to be on the basketball court or the softball field, and there was no baseball bats (inaudible) anyone. So, we did like that for years, and -- JJ: Right, and, later on, I remember playing baseball, and, if somebody come out and say, “Hey, somebody got beat up,” everybody -- LS: Joined together, and -- JJ: -- left the game. LS: We used to play softball there, up around Waller. We used to play -- JJ: In Lincoln Park. LS: -- in Lincoln Park and IC. JJ: What’s IC? LS: Immaculate Conception, remember? JJ: Oh, yeah. Immaculate Conception. LS: Down North Park, you know? And we never fought one another still. But I think, man, for the most part, that prejudism always -- JJ: What about women? 56 �LS: Well, the women so much -- we didn’t have women with us. We would’ve played cool (inaudible). [01:11:00] You know, we all dressed with our club sweaters and stuff like that. JJ: So, there was always women around. LS: Of course there’s always women. They went to school with us. JJ: ’Cause you were players. LS: Yes, there you go. JJ: (inaudible) heartbreakers. LS: We weren’t about that fighting stuff, you know? We were about just being [glamorous?] as we were, and the girls like that stuff, and we went to play sports. The girls were out there with us, rooting for us, of course. I’m not even sure of all the girls (inaudible) label anyone, but they were part of our clique, and we had one hell of a good time, you know? And then, with the socials at Ogden Y -- JJ: So, the Ogden YMCA -- (inaudible) YMCA. LS: (inaudible) YMCA right there. We had socials -- JJ: What kind of socials? What do you mean? LS: Well, we were dancin’, you know? Like (inaudible). You guys had one week, and we had another week and stuff like that. JJ: So, all the different groups were organizing events? LS: We could always go, yeah, and always -- JJ: Everybody would go to each [01:12:00] other’s. LS: We had support there for one another. JJ: So, they were all in different neighborhoods, so that neighborhood was big. 57 �LS: We crossed boundaries. There was no fear of crossing boundary -- we went (inaudible) you guys at the dances. We (inaudible) girls, you know, with the twist and stuff like that and everything, and -- JJ: I’m saying that whole area was Spanish there. LS: Well, no, no. We weren’t all Spanish, pretty much, because, you know, Old Town Triangle -- JJ: Oh, not Old Town. Not Old Town. LS: -- they didn’t let that happen. JJ: Right, not Old Town. LS: And -- JJ: But I mean, like, when you get more into Lincoln Park, like Armitage and -- LS: Well, we had problems, but anything we did, really, our way up there -- and I’m sayin’ our way at that time because, after, pretty much, the Continentals were dissolved, still, I was up Armitage and Halsted with the Paragons, and the Imperial Aces, and stuff like that. JJ: Okay. So, then, you got into the Paragons? LS: Ace. Still slick. JJ: Imperial Aces. You got into the Imperial Aces. LS: Imperial Aces and stuff, you know? And -- JJ: So, who was the leaders? Who was the leaders in the Imperial Aces and Queens? LS: I remember [01:13:00] Louis Miranda and, yeah, Michael (inaudible), godfather of my daughter. 58 �JJ: But that’s the Paragons, Louis Miranda. LS: Yeah. JJ: But I mean the Imperial Aces. Do you remember them? LS: That one, I can’t remember if it was Bob, or Louie, or what. I’m not sure. I don’t remember. Okay? And, once again, still, we’re not challenging each other to hurt one another. We’re challenging others to the dance floor. We hung at the same hot dog stand. JJ: I think the Lugos -- weren’t they Imperial Aces? LS: Ralphie Lugo and his brother, I don’t really recall because, see, originally, I’m not from them originally. I’m still Continental. All right? But, no, as we dispersed, we went -- and then, again -- JJ: ’Cause they had the church. Weren’t they --? LS: They were at the church -- well, we had the church afterwards. All right? All right. We used to be there on Sundays and stuff like that with Wilson, Louie, and myself, and Michael (inaudible), may he rest in peace, and Victor and stuff like that, and we went there. The attraction was still, once again, basketball. [01:14:00] Softball, you know. Marvin, may he rest in peace also, was a -- JJ: Marvin passed away? LS: Yeah, Marvin passed away a few years ago. JJ: What about Wilfredo? LS: Wilfredo? JJ: Does he still have a store? LS: No. Wilfredo -- he’s -- lives around -- 59 �JJ: (inaudible) Village. LS: He lives in a senior citizen home over off Damen there, by Sheila, I believe. I see him all the time on Division Street. JJ: You see him? LS: Yeah, all the time. Very frequently. JJ: So, he doesn’t have a store? I’m talking about Wilfredo Ramírez. LS: Yeah. (inaudible). No, he doesn’t. He’s had his ups and downs in life, you know, and I see him occasionally. You’ll see him in the park. If you were in Chicago a little more, you’d run into him. Just go on Division Street. You hear him -- probably, he’s over by the old (inaudible). He’s playin’ dominoes or checkers on the sidewalk there. You know, as I said, for the most part, we still weren’t trying to be gangs and stuff. Sports were the thing. But, [01:15:00] you know, as I went through that phase in life, I met a young lady, which made my life change real, real good, and I married her and had a couple kids with her, and -- JJ: Who is this? Who is this? LS: Hmm? JJ: Who is this? LS: It was Rina. JJ: Rina. LS: My first wife, yeah. And that put me up more on a positive basis. When the same time as, roughly, I married her, I went even more positive because things that I had done in the community, I became able to spread myself out and do 60 �more positive things, and, thanks to Mingo, all right? Who also (inaudible) the YMCA -JJ: Mingo Ayala? LS: Yeah. You know, brought me on as part of BUILD when it started in 1969. All right? And -- JJ: What was BUILD? I mean -- LS: BUILD. Broader -- JJ: Did you work at the YMCA (inaudible)? LS: I started out there with him, yeah, as a part-time worker. JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah, 10 bucks a month. JJ: Ten bucks a month. LS: Yeah, 10 bucks a month as a field assistant. And that was the same philosophy we took with BUILD, [01:16:00] all right? And -- JJ: So, what did they do? LS: Okay. Well, BUILD -- JJ: ’Cause I don’t want people to say, “I got paid 10 bucks (inaudible).” LS: Well, the 10 bucks a month was an incentive. It was like stipend fund. JJ: And that was for the leader, right? LS: It was for -- well, the person who best identified with the group to go back and get the guys involved in sports, education. (inaudible). JJ: So, it was like a gang prevention program. 61 �LS: Gang prevention. You can call it also that. You know, and we did a lot of prevention as far as -- with BUILD. JJ: So, whoever could identify the most with the youth group. LS: Well, the person who was so-called leader or the most influence, all right? And I was good in sports, and I was a person -- he and me each had a meeting, and he got his little stipend of 10 dollars. Okay? But, for the years we were there, from ’62, when they had the Detached Program with the YMCA, we pretty much took the same philosophy in BUILD, which we started in March in 1969, and I’m still, to this day, very glad and proud to have been a part of them. [01:17:00] All right? Because, at that time, when I was given the area to work, which was Near North, Cabrini-Green, I went right back to peers in the area that I grew out of, and I was able to help them much more positive and better. All right? Organizer -- I have never been a real great organizer, but I can organize people, and, as we all know, my strength is people. All right? And, once again, from bein’ the basketball player -- and I keep thinkin’ about the boxer. That’s what made you real strong. JJ: Oh, you boxed too? LS: I boxed. Yeah, me and Saxton. We were the neighborhood champs. JJ: Was that the time that we boxed? Everybody boxed? LS: Yeah, we always boxed there. We challenged you guys. That was part of the YMCA. It grew -- JJ: I boxed one year too. LS: Yeah, you can’t remember that. Was that a knockout? 62 �JJ: Was that the one that I hit the guy? LS: Oh, you know what, now? I remember that. Yeah. (inaudible) -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: We were in a league of YMCA. League of YMCA. [01:18:00] This is the tournament. Cha-Cha gets into a fight, and then he bites the guy. I do recall that, yeah. Yeah, that was really funny. JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah. Okay. Cha-Cha was pullin’ -- what’s his name? A Tyson. A Tyson. JJ: I didn’t practice. LS: Yeah, you were practicing all right, man. JJ: (inaudible). LS: But I would know, in the future, to feed you first, okay? But, you know, yeah, that was the type of programs that the Y had offered. We offered the same thing, but we were keyed in on certain communities, but that also was given by the community for us to come and work those areas. We were private. We weren’t owned by the city or state. We’re all private. Our dollars were given to us private by donations. And we were assigned to various communities who put the money up for us. JJ: So, wait a minute. So, you were getting 10 dollars a month. LS: No, no, no, no, no. I grew way past that. JJ: You went past that later. LS: Yeah. Yeah. No -- JJ: Oh, that was BUILD when you started -- 63 �LS: With BUILD, yeah. I came from the field assistant to the -- I think it was director. This was all part-time, [01:19:00] and then I became a full-time worker, which I left my job at the time. I used to drive a truck for an art supply company, so I left that, and I came on board with BUILD full-time, which gave me lots of time. I’m a street worker. That’s my title. So, therefore, between working the gangs in Cabrini and up to the Near North, you know, I guess it was probably a very good move for me because of sports is how I made any and everything because I’m known in Cabrini-Green -- basketball, little bit of boxing. I went to St. Michael’s. We had a lot of (inaudible) with basketball there, you know, Waller High School and stuff like that. I knew multiple people, and, that way, it was easy to [relate?] - JJ: But you didn’t go to Waller School. LS: Pardon me? JJ: ’Cause you went to St. Michael’s. LS: I went to St. Michael’s. JJ: But you hung around with Waller? LS: Well, you know, in my deals with sports, I got to meet people from all the schools in the area there. Even with DePaul [01:20:00], even, you know? JJ: DePaul? Okay. LS: Even with -- yeah. I can’t think of Booker’s first name, but, you know, played with and stuff. I happened to be in a team from the Continentals. Louie, myself, José, Danny, we played with lots of teams. They recruited us. And, especially when tournaments came by, you know, whoever had us had the trophy. And 64 �that’s another thing about playing those tournaments. Trophies were offered. It was the park district, or the schools. They offered trophies, and that was a thing that we played for. JJ: That was with BUILD. BUILD was more organized. LS: Well, with the YMCA, they had given us the same opportunity, but, after 1969, when we started BUILD, we concentrated a little more heavier into that, and their funding was for the groups that worked with me (inaudible) assigned to. JJ: What about Sebastian? Did you know Sebastian? LS: Sebastian, yeah. Sebastian -- I still see little man. JJ: [01:21:00] You still see him? LS: Yeah, I still see him. Yeah. JJ: Didn’t he win a -- LS: He was boxin’. He’s boxin’, yeah, for lightweight, and we talk about that each time we meet. His son worked there, over by Wilfredo, Saxton’s brother. JJ: Saxton’s -- oh, yeah. LS: Yeah. Okay? He -- JJ: That’s the one I thought had the store. Is that the one you’re saying? LS: He had the store. JJ: He’s in Humboldt Park now? LS: No. No, no. This is Black Wilfredo I thought you were speaking of. JJ: No, no. I’m talking about Wilfredo, Saxton’s brother. LS: Okay. Yeah. He had (inaudible) men’s clothing. JJ: Yeah, where’s he -- is that still there? 65 �LS: No. He sold out a couple years ago, and he -- I think he’s in Florida still. JJ: Okay. It was a business deal. LS: Yeah. Yeah, we -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah. (inaudible). JJ: Was it (inaudible)? LS: No, no. Luis Ayes. Well, Luis Ayes, he retired from the police department. He lives in Puerto Rico. JJ: Oh, lives in [01:22:00] Puerto Rico? LS: Yeah. His son works with me -- is, as a matter of fact, from my department. He’s a clerk (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible) leader of the Black Eagles. LS: He was? JJ: For a while. LS: I remember he was there. Yeah, I remember Louie. I met Louie just as he left high school and went to the police department. JJ: [He was in a movie. He was in a video?]. LS: I don’t recall that, but I remember I met him afterwards, and he went to the service also. All right? And I met him just prior to that, and after he came out and stuff like that, you know -- same with Miguel. Both Miguels, and Miguel -- I can’t think of it now. Pantoja. JJ: Oh, Pantoja. 66 �LS: Yeah. And then, the other Miguel -- can’t think of the name right now, but I met them just as they had made their move. JJ: The Pantojas were -- weren’t they Imperial Aces? LS: Pardon me? JJ: Were they Imperial Aces, Pantoja, or Black Eagles? LS: [01:23:00] One Pantoja -- JJ: Just, again, these are all social clubs we’re talking about. LS: Yeah, we’re still social clubs as far as -- we are -- as a matter of fact, we’re not 15, 18 years old. We are -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: You better believe it, bro. You know, we are, at this time -- we were adults. We had families and stuff like that, and it wasn’t so much -- for some of us, even though we didn’t hang at the hot dog stand anymore every day, you know, because -- (inaudible). You guys were already low-profile, and you’re into different things far as the movement with the Young Lords. We had resolved our -- JJ: So, what did you think when we were doing that, when we were doing the Young Lords? What did you think? LS: I was still trying to pretty much do the thing with social work. I got involved in that (inaudible). JJ: Did you think we were doing something wrong? LS: Well, you know, we weren’t always on the same page, but, as far as bein’ positive, I guess visibly, what people saw us doing -- 67 �JJ: What was it that you didn’t like about us? LS: Well, I’m not gonna go into what I didn’t like about it. It’s just that we probably had the same goal somewhat, [01:24:00] same intentions. We [went about?] different ways of doing it, and -- because I wasn’t a member of the Young Lords - JJ: [I know?]. LS: People -- they thought I should be [riding that way?], but, still, today, you know, I’m not gonna follow a group. I’m gonna do what I think is right, and that’s the direction I’m goin’ to. JJ: What were the other guys thinking? I mean, did they get mad or something? LS: Well, not (inaudible). As long as I got six, ten, twenty-two other kids behind me and I’m goin’ to the softball field, I’m playin’ flag football -- JJ: So, they just didn’t pay attention. LS: Well, no. It’s not they didn’t pay attention. They did pay attention because, at the time, they said you’re not trustworthy, so they had to watch you, but, watching what we did, you see we were people doing things positive. We were -education. All right? And, no -- JJ: So, we weren’t positive. That’s what you’re saying? LS: No, I’m not saying you’re not positive, brother. By no means at all. Okay? JJ: I just wanna -- LS: From what I did with BUILD, okay? And what you -- JJ: BUILD was positive. LS: Okay. That [01:25:00] (inaudible). 68 �JJ: But you were -- LS: But, even prior to that -- JJ: We weren’t on the same page, you’re saying. LS: Even prior to that, we used to hang out on Dayton Street like that and everything. Of course, I didn’t march, carrying the flag and stuff like that and preaching to people. (inaudible). I don’t have to follow anyone. I have my own thing. That’s what you were doin’. Did you ever see me go the other way against you? Didn’t. The same when we were different clubs. Didn’t go against you. I don’t have to be on the side of the fence to say, “I recognize what you guys are doing.” You had more guts than most people that stand up to other people. All right? I'm not trying to go out and start a picket (inaudible) anything like that. That’s not what we’re doing things that time, and it’s still to now, and I also recognize, pretty much, to win a battle is education. Learn the game. Bring the game back. You win the game that way. You don’t always have to pull up something and fight. [01:26:00] Okay? And (inaudible) my parents and stuff from Catholic school, to learn something. Okay? In the community, you can always learn the negative side about the fighting and stuff, but, like me, I learned to fight in the ring. Okay? And that was (inaudible) lot of people because the the record Saxon and I had as the heavyweight champions is still strong. It’s myself, Ray Ramos, Luis Peña, and some of the other guys had basketball. We were models right there. That, in itself, speaks for itself, and that bring followers because you’re doing something positive, and all kids like sports figures, and we are the sports figures of that community. Okay? 69 �JJ: You guys were the sports -- LS: All right? And, therefore, when a parent allowed a kid to come with us or to join the -- JJ: Luis Ayes and -- LS: Luis Ayes became a policeman. JJ: -- [Dan?] were more like policemen. LS: Luis Ayes -- JJ: You guys were more, like, into sports. LS: Well, even when -- JJ: We were political. We were political. LS: You were political, and [01:27:00] I wasn’t politically involved, but Luis Ayes at the time -- as I said, I met Luis and Juan Pantoja -- they had either come out of the service or gone in. Juan went out, and Luis (inaudible). JJ: But then, they got involved -- see, they got jobs with the city, though. LS: I don’t recall that. JJ: You don’t recall that? LS: No, ’cause Pantoja -- I know he didn’t get a job in the city. Not that I remember. [Toothpick?] did. JJ: Oh, Toothpick got a job in the city. LS: Toothpick, yeah, may he rest in peace also. (inaudible) -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah, Toothpick’s been -- like Marvin. Probably a decade or so, almost. Yeah. JJ: But his brother was involved in the -- 70 �LS: I can’t remember his brother’s name, but I also remember he had a brother, you know? But Toothpick was -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: Yeah, but (inaudible), you know? JJ: I know, but -- okay. What I’m saying is some people -- because, when I talked to [Edie?] -- you know, Edie was in the Young Lordettes. LS: Oh, yeah. JJ: And they were going -- what’s his name? In the 31st Ward. LS: 31st Ward? JJ: Ray [01:28:00] Suarez. Ray Suarez. LS: Yeah, Suarez. Yeah. JJ: So, they were part of that organization. (inaudible). LS: You know, I have worked against Ray Suarez, and I don’t remember seeing you there. JJ: I don’t understand how that works. LS: But either -- JJ: How could you guys be in the same room but work against each other? LS: Different times. Edie -- you’re talking about Saxton’s -- JJ: Yeah, wife. LS: Saxton’s brother’s wife? JJ: Saxton’s brother’s wife. LS: Yeah, Ruben. JJ: Ruben. 71 �LS: (inaudible), yeah. JJ: They were both Young Lords. They were -- LS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: But they were working the other way? LS: We may have worked at different times, supporting our candidates. JJ: ’Cause they were more with Daley and stuff like that. We were workin’ against Daley. So, what was that? LS: I’ve been on that tree, up and down it also. Okay? Daley -- JJ: Why did you work with Daley? LS: Well, I was never really, at that time, fully aware about the political movements and stuff. JJ: We’re talking about everybody. We’re not just talking about -- LS: Lot of us were. JJ: -- Young Lords. We’re talking about the neighborhood of Lincoln Park. LS: Yeah, lot of us [01:29:00] were -- JJ: Doesn’t matter which side you’re on. LS: -- because, as a matter of fact -- JJ: I’m just asking-- LS: Okay. ’Cause, if you recall correctly, when politics are brought around (inaudible) [Jimmy?] -- (inaudible) last name right now. They’re Republicans. Okay? And we weren’t really aware that much about voting and stuff?. Jimmy (inaudible) people were doing that. After we became a little more knowledgeable and learned that, us being minorities, our strength was not with the Republicans. Our 72 �strength was with the Democrats, and, therefore, we had to make that conversion. And, in doing so, some people went that way visibly, and other people didn’t go visibly, and I’m still glad today, my time I did (inaudible), it wasn’t for the politics. It was because (inaudible) organization, and we never took a political stance, you know? And I’m still democrat. All right? And -JJ: (inaudible) democrat too. LS: But -- JJ: [But then], Daley, (inaudible) -- LS: -- Jimmy -- JJ: Whenever -- LS: That was Jimmy Miranda, you know? He was goin’ out, gettin’ all the [01:30:00] votes and everything from the people and everything, and not realizing until way some time afterward, we were supporting Republicans who kicked us in the butt. You know, helped us lose our homes and stuff like that. And I learned a little bit about that. As a matter of fact, the thing with Jesse and stuff -- I didn’t know much about politics at that time either, and -- JJ: Jesse Jackson? LS: Jesse Jackson and them movement -- Martin Luther King -- I mean, I wasn’t abreast about of all that stuff, and they were really working things out for us and stuff like that. I wasn’t all that smart about politics. I learned the hard way. Not so much that it hurt me, but I learned, if I’m gonna take a stand, where I really should be standing. Okay? And, in that community, you know, we stand Latino, and we weren’t (inaudible). All right? So, therefore, there were times you had to 73 �request -- they gave you the crumb, and they had the cake, you know? And there were other times -- like, yeah. Okay, yeah. They threw us a little bit more and stuff like that. But, up until -JJ: So, what [01:31:00] you’re trying to say is that you didn’t just join for the heck of it. They had to throw something. LS: That’s the way the game is, right? That’s what it’s about, isn’t it? Isn’t that what it’s about? It’s about jobs. JJ: I don’t know. I mean -- LS: It’s about jobs. A lot of the people went for the job -- I never had a job in the city. I never (inaudible). Didn’t really knock on doors either because, at the time, I wasn’t politically involved. Okay? But, like I said, to get followers in what we’re doing that matter to us and our community right then and there. Okay? That’s the important thing. When this -- Rentes had a problem with housing. Okay? We can go right there to Miguel. I think it was called -- it wasn’t DHS at the time. Can’t think of the name of the project, but, you know, we could go right there to Carmello, and Carmello would help us out. Okay? JJ: So, when you say Carmello, and Rentes, and all this, all these are people from the neighborhood? LS: [01:32:00] Those are people from the community, but, at this time, though -- JJ: But they got some connections. LS: Well, the connection was they had put -- I can’t think of Carmello’s real name right now and the department they had before they called it DHS. Tip of my tongue. 74 �JJ: Oh, DHS over by -- LS: Before that. Before that. JJ: When they were on Dayton? LS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: DHS? LS: Yeah, but it wasn’t DHS. JJ: Manchigo? LS: Manchigo, there we go. All right? As a matter of fact, helped us see that goal in Puerto Rico. JJ: Oh, yeah, because he worked for the city. LS: There you go. That was our representative JJ: So, he controlled the jobs. He was a representative. LS: Well, we don’t know about control the job. He was our input to the city as far as I know because there was a problem. That’s what the DHS office was there for. JJ: He was just doing DHS. LS: He was -- JJ: Did he have something to do with the --? LS: He was a director. You know how many times Manchigo -- JJ: The director of -- LS: -- got us out of jail and borrow money out of his pocket and stuff like that for various things, you know? He was our spokesperson, and I think, to this very day, his brother, and his wife, and (inaudible) used to chip in and get us out (inaudible) little bit, stuff that really [01:33:00] wasn’t (inaudible). 75 �JJ: (inaudible). LS: Well, you know, there’s always a change. When you’re into that politics thing right there, you’re standing here today, and, tomorrow, you’re over there, but, nevertheless -- so, he was our representative at that time, and I went along with that, and, you know, they had the city side, and they had you guys fightin’ what you fought for, and, at the time, it wasn’t even about housing either. I’m still about moving kids, and recreation, and education. JJ: So, you were into recreation. LS: Okay? And one thing led to another into a agency, went to the Aspect of Life, knowing n our community and Near North there that was a very important thing. JJ: Concerned Puerto Rican Youth. LS: CPRY. Ernesto Hernández. JJ: Ernesto? That was Ernesto? LS: Yeah. JJ: Ernesto Hernández. LS: Ernesto, yeah, and Mingo was there also. JJ: And Mingo. And Mingo. LS: And Mingo, at that time, was with YMCA. Yeah. JJ: So, what was that about? How did that start? LS: That was also for, as it says, concerned Puerto Rican youth, and with the little storefront there, [01:34:00] (inaudible) Armitage, and we built ourselves a little office there, and there were funds freed up somehow, I’m assumin’, okay? Well, as a matter of fact, I’m not gonna assume ’cause I know (inaudible) Bissel 76 �hardware, and some of the other businessmen along Armitage put money and stuff up, so we had a secretary. JJ: So, you guys got the money from the store owners? LS: We had the businesspeople support. Okay? JJ: So, you guys went out and raised money. LS: They went out. JJ: And just depended -- LS: They went out, you know? So, we were able to -- JJ: And you guys are working with youth, trying to stop the -- LS: Working with youth and stuff like that, and, you know, at the time, we had the Latin Kings up there and that kind of thing and stuff like that, fighting, and we had, coming from the North Side -- can’t recall the other group. It’ll come to me sooner or later. All right? JJ: Latin Eagles? Were they Latin? LS: No, no, no, no. Latin Eagles -- once again, that’s family. We don’t fight. We didn’t have no fight there, you know? But there were rival groups at that time, which came -- JJ: You mean rival with the Latin Kings? LS: The Latin Kings, yeah. And [01:35:00] even with the Gents, they didn’t have no problem. We didn’t have no problem. Even the Gents were being in the middle of all of us there, going out on Orchard and stuff, and -- I can’t think of the name of the other street right now. 77 �JJ: But, I mean, the Concerned Puerto Rican Youth -- didn’t they get money at all from the city, or (inaudible)? LS: I can’t speak to that. I think they did, but I can’t say yes, for sure, because, as I say, I wasn’t a part of that. JJ: They were trying to build something like BUILD, right? LS: They were building a neighborhood thing centrally located in our community for Puerto Ricans, which also -- CPRY influenced Black, white, Latin, whatever. People from our community were there, you know? JJ: People from the community. LS: And people donated books. We had people come in and teach classes, volunteers, (inaudible) right there. JJ: ’Cause we got along real good with Ernesto. LS: Pardon me? JJ: We got along real good with Ernesto. LS: But, see, once again, that’s why we were not -- JJ: (inaudible). LS: That’s why we were never gangs, because we were offering the same things, [01:36:00] just come at different angles, and we’re -- support of our community. JJ: They were just trying to -- LS: Okay? It was those who didn’t want to survive or spark up too many sparks, you know, to stop them from allowing us to be part of our community or with our cultures. 78 �JJ: So, you guys were organizing that youth group, the Concerned Puerto Rican Youth. Now, it was the same thing that we were trying to organize the Young Lords. LS: You already organized, and you had People’s Park already. JJ: [You were?] -- LS: You already had People’s Park, and you took the church over and stuff. All right? All right? JJ: So, were you guys jealous of us, or were we just --? LS: (inaudible) jealous of you? I still dress better than you. (inaudible). The thing (inaudible), you know, you weren’t a competition, and we didn’t try to compete against you. The purpose was to educate -- JJ: We were just different. You were more into sports and stuff like that. LS: Yeah. The thing is to educate our people. JJ: I say we’re both trying to educate our people. LS: Yeah. All right? Educate the people. And those people with the housing problems, help out. [01:37:00] We all have resources, but we all have the same resource, so, therefore, you could be help comin’ from left field, and help is comin’ from right field. Okay? And the field that should be helping both sides, you know, we could attack it or (inaudible) -- JJ: I got to change this. One second. LS: Okay. What time is it? JJ: What do I care about time? LS: If I say, “I quit,” you do. 79 �JJ: Okay. Just a few more minutes. LS: We fight and wrestle all the time. END OF AUDIO FILE 80 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/572823d836a231e614de32653114b3cd.mp4 735ce88af9f67ac58b43f860d6a713d6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Lacey Smith vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Lacey Smith, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 10/19/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Smith_Lacey_1 Title A name given to the resource Lacey Smith video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Smith, Lacey Description An account of the resource Oral history of Lacey Smith, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 10/19/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-10-19 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/88de78877aec361b80719fbf3c7afd24.pdf ba195740afd6b306c94331dbd4219a08 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Paul Siegel Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/7/2012 Biography and Description Paul Siegel was a precinct captain in the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign (1973-1975). He was also a member of the Inter Communal Survival Committees that moved to Chicago to concentrate their forces and work in Uptown organizing the poor at the grassroots level. Paul’s precincts bordered Young Lord areas, so he spent many hours near the Young Lords office on Wilton and Grace Streets in Lakeview. Mr. Siegel was determined to cover and win the precincts and made many friends by providing referral services and following them up. He also talked and listened to local residents for hours, learning a great deal about what was on the minds of Latinos and poor people. His office was the street of his precincts and he knew everybody’s children and pets by name. Mr. Siegel was also especially gifted at identifying and enlisting community leaders to help him get out the vote. After the Jiménez campaign, Mr. Siegel also ran for alderman of the 46th ward and nearly won. Like the Jiménez campaign, his run helped to lay important groundwork in the ward for the victory that arrived with Helen Shiller’s election in 1987. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, go ahead and start, Paul, just give your name in that and your, kinda, connection to the -- how you came from Wisconsin to here, and your connection to the Young Lords and that -PAUL SIEGEL: Okay, my name is Paul Siegel, and how I came to have a connection with the Young Lords, well, it was, I guess you could say, via the route of Wisconsin in part. So I was in Madison, part of the student movement there, and was among the people that left the campus to do community-based organizing. And I was part of a group of people that really drew their main inspiration from the example bein’ set by the Black Panther Party and by [00:01:00] the challenge that started with SNCC and then continued with the Panthers to White people who wanted to change society. That our job was to organize White people who were oppressed to realize that they were part of the same struggle as the Black Panther Party. So from Madison, I joined up with a group in Racine, Wisconsin, which was called the Revolutionary Youth Movement, a name of which grew out of a group within SDS that came to be called Revolutionary -- RYM II. RYM I having been the Weatherman group, and RYM II being more, we wanna be based in the community, in communities of people, poor and working-class people struggling for change and less the idea of, [00:02:00] kind of, a small elite that, sort of, knew what to do and was out, you know, kind of, a bit isolated, I think, from the struggles of poor and working people. So in Racine, Wisconsin, we had direct contact with a group that was 1 �called the People’s Information Center in Chicago, which had the same connection to SDS that we did. And we also had contact with the Black Panther Party chapter in Rockford, Illinois, which wasn’t that far from Racine, and the leaders there, you know, particularly, a guy named Harold Bell. But the People’s Information Center, which became the Intercommunal Survival Committee, had a direct tie with the [00:03:00] Black Panther Party nationally and in Chicago. And we increasingly began to work together with them while we were still in Racine, and we were organizing things like a free breakfast for children program. We were distributing the Black Panther Party newspaper to poor, White people in Racine and, kind of, modeling on the Survival Pending Revolution idea of the Black Panther Party. This would be, like, the beginning of the 1970s, and as time went on, the people from what became the Intercommunal Survival Committee in Chicago proposed to us that we, kinda, join up with them. And so that people who were goin’ in this direction of community-based organizing, in which the goal was to directly [00:04:00] relate the struggles of poor and oppressed White people to the struggles of Black people and peoples of color. That people who were of that kind of approach and who saw the Black Panther Party as the most important force working for social change in the country at the time. That we should consolidate and build a base in Chicago that could be an example of that kind of work. So we agreed to do that, and we gradually, kind of -- we didn’t just up and leave Racine ’cause there were people we were workin’ with, and some of those people who were from Racine came with us to Chicago, in fact. And so there was a gradual folding into the operation in Chicago, which also drew people 2 �from an Intercommunal Survival Committee that had started in St. Louis. So you had this, kind of, convergence of organizers that were inspired [00:05:00] by that approach that I just, kind of, talked about generally, a convergence in Chicago. Now at the time, I came to Chicago in the summer of 1972, and I think it would be accurate to say -- and the person who’s interviewing me is the real expert on this, so he could correct me. But I think it would be accurate to say that by 1972, a struggle that had happened in Lincoln Park led by the Young Lords against displacement by urban renewal, had, kind of, gone as far as it could go. And, I guess in essence, you could say, had been defeated to rise again, but had defeated by the powers that be. And so I arrived when the Intercommunal Survival Committee in Chicago was [00:06:00] still based in Lincoln Park, and Lincoln Park was a real interesting community ’cause you had this mix of people. Like I remember when -- I’m jumping ahead, but when Cha-Cha ran for alderman, he drew upon Bob Gibson to write us a campaign anthem, which was a great song, and Bob Gibson, you knew him out of Lincoln Park. So Lincoln Park was this mix of people. You know, you had this, kind of, folk song scene, and that whole thing, had probably every left group around, you know, had somethin’ goin’ in Lincoln Park in those days. And it was before they turned it into a really exclusive, gentrified community. And the struggle that Cha-Cha and the Young Lords led in Lincoln Park was the struggle against the plans to do that. So the impact of the struggle of the Young Lords in Lincoln Park against urban renewal [00:07:00] upon the organizers that were already in Chicago, the Intercommunal Survival Committee in Chicago, I think you can’t overestimate it. 3 �Because this is where folks that had come out of the Civil Rights Movement, come out of the student movement were following that mandate that I talked about, which is we don’t need you to be runnin’ Black organizations or Puerto Rican organizations, we need you to be bringin’ White people into the struggle. So this was where that concrete connection was made. You had poor, White people in Lincoln Park, you had a, kinda, contingent of White people from Appalachia, kind of, a group of families really that were living in Lincoln Park, and other poor, [00:08:00] White people in Lincoln Park. And the Intercommunal Survival Committee in Chicago began working with those people in the same way that we had been doing in Racine, organizing survival programs. But comes this Young Lords organization, which I don’t think I need to even try to recite that history because I assume that’s comin’ from elsewhere for this collection of interviews. Comes this Young Lords organization that grew out of a Puerto Rican street gang, absorbed the anti-colonial struggles that were goin’ on in the ’60s, hooked up with the Black Panther Party, hooked up with the Young Patriots, which was an Appalachian-based youth group in Uptown. And Cha-Cha Jiménez as the leader of that transformation [00:09:00] of a street gang into a fighting political organization, community-based, led this battle against urban renewal in Lincoln Park. To my understanding, I arrive, again, just as it’s, kind of, at the end, and Cha-Cha’s, at that point, in hiding because of a whole series of trumped-up -- right? In 1972, Cha-Cha is in hiding because of a whole bunch of trumped-up charges that are connected with all the repression in Chicago that culminated in the murder of Fred Hampton at the end of 1969. So Cha-Cha 4 �Jiménez is driven into hiding, and that movement, kind of, in defeat in ’72, but the example that it gave of large numbers of people fighting against urban renewal, fighting against displacement, saying, “We gotta have a viable community to live in, in which we can [00:10:00] thrive and in which we can reach out to other people so that we can change this country.” The impact of that upon those White organizers in Uptown, who were part of the Intercommunal Survival Committee, was just huge. When I arrived in 1972, it was clear that where we needed to go, the Intercommunal Survival Committee, was to Uptown, which was one of the nation’s largest urban concentrations of poor and working-class White people that you could find anywhere, so... And Uptown already had had struggle at the same time, which was the fight against Truman College, at the same time that the Young Lords were leading the battle in Lincoln Park, which was deliberately built by the city right in the heart of the Appalachian, White community in Chicago. [00:11:00] And it was never just Appalachian Whites, there was always a mixture, but the biggest single group was Appalachian Whites. There were other poor Whites from the South, there were poor Whites from the North, and already, there were African Americans and large numbers of Native Americans in Uptown, so you already had this mixture, so... And there already had been some struggle against urban renewal. So the Intercommunal Survival Committee in Chicago, strengthened by bringing organizers from Racine and St. Louis, you know, strengthening its ranks in terms of a core of committed people, began to move into Uptown to build a base in Uptown. That’s where I came in, and what we did was to -- well, we did many things, but we had that direct link with the 5 �Black Panther Party. [00:12:00] And one of the first things we did in Uptown was organize what the Panthers were doin’ at the time, which was a massive distribution of groceries called the Survival Program. And it was around the theme of community control of police, which at the time, the Black Panther Party was leading a fight to try to bring about a citywide referendum for community control of police in Chicago. Of course, you know, the problem of the police and repression and the way they acted in four communities in Chicago was more than scandalous. And, of course, this was an issue that appealed to a lot of people in Uptown who had had terrible experiences with the police. So that was one of the first things we did. And Bobby Rush, who, at that time, was head of the Black Panther Party chapter in Illinois, spoke [00:13:00] at that program where we distributed 3,000 bags of groceries. But what came off of that was a whole lotta names, a whole lot of context because 3,000 people were there, and that plus our just goin’ out and canvassing, knocking on doors, sometimes seven days a week in the community. We were building this network of contacts, and we built it around distribution of the Black Panther Party newspaper. This was really an important move in terms of building a base in Uptown. We were challenging -- you know, as I say, there’s a mix of people, so we’re hittin’ doors and we’re talkin’ to Native Americans who came from the reservations, and we’re talkin’ to Puerto Ricans who were beginning to find their way up into Uptown having been displaced from Lincoln Park. [00:14:00] And some Puerto Ricans are migrating one step ahead of the wrecking ball. Every place they go, it’s gettin’ urban renewed, and they’re gettin’ displaced, and they’re migrating 6 �sometimes a block at a time up into Uptown and west out to Humboldt Park, really I think in two directions from that Lincoln Park base. That was just, you know, in essence, largely destroyed when they -- through repression and other things, they defeated that movement. So we’re knockin’ on doors, we’re meetin’ all kinds of people, focusing as much as we can upon challenging the poor, White people we met to take the Black Panther newspaper where we would deliver it once a week. Well, if you think about it, you know, the housing conditions are crowded, everybody’s livin’ on top of each other in this community. Everybody that was in Uptown, I know -- [00:15:00] I’m, sorta, jumpin’ around, but everybody that was livin’ in Uptown had been displaced from somewhere else. Appalachians had been displaced from the coal mines by technological unemployment when they brought in new machinery. They carry the coal dust in their lungs, and the black lung disease, and not much else, but what was on their back, and a lot of them came to Chicago and many, many came to Uptown. Puerto Ricans were displaced from the island by Operation Bootstrap and then displaced through neighborhood after neighborhood in Chicago, rapid-fire displacement. African Americans were displaced from enclaves they had on the North Side, and then many decided that they wanted to check out a multiracial community where they had lived on the South Side or the West Side and had been displaced often from viable neighborhoods on the South Side into public housing. So [00:16:00] you had this phenomenon of this neighborhood that had a cross-section of everybody who couldn’t fit into Chicago’s post-World War II order of urban renewal, gentrification, and putting all the resources into the Loop. 7 �And Uptown is this cross-section of everybody who’s thrown out because of what was makin’ some people a lot of money in Chicago, and that was, sort of, the basis of the whole political, social order in Chicago. And so Uptown becomes the place where people start to say, “Are we gonna be displaced, just be displaced again, or we’re gonna fight? And are we going to fight each other because we’re of these different colors and different races and we’ve been taught all this crap against each other, or are we gonna pull together in order to fight to say this time, [00:17:00] this community’s got to be ours, we don’t wanna to be pushed out again?” So steppin’ backward again to the beginnings of that and what I was saying about -- so lots of people are coming into Uptown ’cause they’ve got no place else to go. The housing supply is limited, so people are crowded together. So if you’re a White person from the South or a poor, White person, and you take the Black Panther Party newspaper in that situation of so many people concentrated, you’re really makin’ a statement. People know that you’re takin’ the Black Panther Party newspaper. You’re sayin’, “Yeah, yeah, I know what I’ve heard about the Black Panthers, and I know what I’ve heard about Black people, and I know what I’ve heard about these agitators that -- comin’ around. But they seem to be the people that give a damn about what’s gonna to happen to me and my family, [00:18:00] and they seem to be sayin’ they’re part of this community, and so I think I’ll take that paper.” So you start to identify who in the community is progressive enough to identify with that. And then you’re deliverin’ that paper every week, and you’re in the person’s house, they invite you in. You’re findin’ out about them, about their life, about their family. You might meet their neighbor 8 �who comes to see them when you’re in there, sayin’, “Well, check out this article that’s in the paper this week,” or what have you. You’re learnin’ about the community, and you’re beginning to really build a base. So around that home, it was amazing what the home distribution of the Black Panther Party newspaper did. And then you gotta to look at that and say, “Well, it’s amazing the fact that there was a Black Panther Party that was producing that newspaper based on the practice that they were involved [00:19:00] in that was creating that example that we could project to people.” So it was a rare, historical moment of opportunity for organizing. Because you had this community where so many people were pushed out and displaced that was now gonna face displacement again because the establishment wakes up and says, “My goodness, this is one mile from the lake, this land is worth its weight in gold, double its weight in gold. We can’t leave these poor Whites, and Black people, and Native Americans, and Puerto Ricans, and Mexicans, and then later on other people are comin’ in, immigrants, we can’t leave that for them. There’s too much money to be made here, and besides, it’s too dangerous. We don’t let too many people get concentrated in one area, and there’s too much potential power in numbers in that concentration.” So it was a rare moment of opportunity [00:20:00] to organize people around the potential to make change. And I think that we seized upon it, and did everything we could with it, and made whatever mistakes we made. And it’s a legacy that I think the current generation of young people that’s Occupy Wall Street and whatnot, they need to know about this as one part of their history because in America, there’s this tendency towards amnesia. In 9 �other countries, there’s political parties that are working-class based that have an institutional memory, and that, kind of, carry that history from one generation to the next. Maybe they also get a little bureaucratized, and they twist it around a little, so maybe there’s a disadvantage, but there’s an institutional [00:21:00] memory. In America, each organization seems to get destroyed, and sometimes in some crazy way, induced to self-destruct. And we see it again and again, generation after generation, and then the new generation that always winds up resisting the oppression has to, sort of, try to reinvent the wheel each time. So I think it’s tremendously important that those of us that are still alive that live through some of this struggle get the story out, get that legacy out, so that young people can take it and do what they want with it. They could say, “Well, this part was bullshit, and this part was right, or it was all bull crap, but this is what we learned from it.” I’ll let the young people figure out what to do with it, but I want the young people to know about it. So, you know, I’m really jumpin’ around, and if it’s a little incoherent, I’m sorry [00:22:00] but -JJ: That’s all right. PS: -- the... So, how does the tie in -- (break in audio) PS: -- with the Young Lords? Well, let’s say that, first of all, it became very clear that resistance to displacement was gonna be the issue that was gonna pull together people in Uptown. That became clear, and it wasn’t out of a textbook. And, you know, one of the things that I feel really happened, and this -- again, it goes back to what the Young Lords got started in Lincoln Park. You can’t overestimate the 10 �importance of it. One of the things that happened was really because of the displacement process. It’s like they’re takin’-- that people are seeds that are getting spread around, and scattered about, and then the wind concentrates them again in [00:23:00] Uptown. And people are bringin’ these experiences of the oppression that’s involved in being displaced, and the examples that they had, whatever examples they bring with them of resistance to it. And you’ve got this cauldron where those experiences are comin’ together. And what I’m sayin’ is that the organizers from the Intercommunal Survival Committee, who were so inspired and learned so much from the struggle of the Young Lords, in a lot of ways, they become part of this sea, this ocean, this wave of people that’s gettin’ displaced through one neighborhood after another and comin’ together in Uptown. So that it’s not somethin’ out of a textbook, it’s somethin’ that’s alive, and the organizers themselves are actually part of the same [00:24:00] phenomenon that they’re tryin’ to figure out how to organize, you know, how to move. They’ve made a commitment, they’ve made a full-time commitment, how are we gonna move this struggle, but they’re really part of that historical experience. And the thing that happened in Lincoln Park and the mass struggle that was led by the Young Lords was key to it. So Uptown becomes, I think, really the place in the city where what I sometimes call the submerged tradition of opposition to displacement. It’s Like Cha-Cha was sayin’ to me today, “Well, are people in Uptown and in Chicago still movin’ on displacement?” and I said, “Well, it’s always there, you know, it’s under the surface. And you never know when the 11 �conditions are gonna be created for it to, you know, come up with an explosion and become a defining [00:25:00] issue again. JJ: Finish up what you’re sayin’, but can you, kind of, elaborate a little bit on some of the mechanics, some of the experiences in terms of the campaign, and -- PS: Right -- JJ: -- as well -- PS: -- that’s what -- JJ: -- in terms of when you started working in the Intercommunal Survival Community, started workin’ together with the Young Lords and -- PS: Right. JJ: -- vice versa and --? PS: And so, you know, without gettin’ into the details of the work with the Young Lords in Lincoln Park, which I think can be covered by other people who were there. JJ: Right, okay. PS: It’s about 19-- you might help me out with this, it was -- JJ: Seventy-two probably? PS: Yeah, but -- and ’70, when you came out of -- JJ: In ’72. PS: -- you came back in the open, as I remember, it was probably ’73. JJ: Nineteen seventy, December fourth, for Fred Hampton’s -- PS: Which year? JJ: Of 1972. [00:26:00] 12 �PS: Okay, very end of ’72. So we’ve been in Uptown, and we’re startin’ to organize these Survival Programs, and maybe I won’t go into all that much detail. There’s another interview where I go into more detail on that, and, you know -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) PS: -- that could be used. But, you know, we’re organizing all kind. At the same time that we’re in people’s homes showing ’em the Black Panther Party paper, we’re sayin’, “Oh.” And they’re telling you about that, of the hassle they’re havin’ with the welfare department or the police or the landlord. And you write it down, and you say, “Oh well, we got this legal defense program,” and, “Oh, you can’t find a decent doctor, well, we got this people’s health program, and we got somebody that can come and help you find a better doctor and go with you to that doctor.” And then that starts to move into community-based mass movements [00:27:00] for preventive health care dealin’ with lead poisoning, dealing with black lung disease in the case of the poor Whites where there were all these folks that came from the coal mines and had black lung disease. And where we wound up, you know, really creating some models in terms of diagnosis and treatment of black lung disease out of Chicago where people, in the end, started comin’ from the coalfields to Chicago where we organized with doctors from Cook County Hospital who specialized in occupational disease. So we’re dealin’ with all the survival needs from that base of goin’ to the people’s houses with the Black Panther Party newspaper, and those survival programs are beginning to grow into more and more organized kinds of demands for change. And durin’ this process, Cha-Cha Jiménez comes out [00:28:00] of hiding, deciding the time is 13 �right to do that, and moves to Wilton and Grace area, which is interesting because Wilton and Grace is like two blocks south of what they would call the southern border of Uptown. It’s two blocks south of Irving Park, so it’s right there. It’s directly adjacent to Uptown and happens to be in the same ward that most of Uptown is in. Just a quick footnote to the political history is, in 1970, I believe in part because of the fight against Truman College and that there’s a movement startin’ to grow in Uptown, they took -- where Uptown used to historically be in one ward that was called the 48th Ward, they, kind of, chopped it up, mostly at Lawrence, from Lawrence to Foster, put that in the 48th, put the bigger chunk [00:29:00] in the 46th, and figured they’d split up the vote, right, and that they could keep down the political insurgency that they were afraid was bubblin’ up. But they didn’t, kinda, take into account that a lot of Puerto Ricans were comin’ northward and gatherin’ some in Uptown, a whole bunch in Uptown, but also a whole bunch just south of Uptown or in that Wilton and Grace area. So Cha-Cha refounds the Young Lord organization and sets up an office at Wilton and Grace, which is in the 46th Ward. And that is the beginning of what became a coalition between the Intercommunal Survival Committee and what eventually became a big, massive organization called the Heart of Uptown Coalition, which was, in a sense, almost like a community union of several thousand families, all of whom signed up to be members and that [00:30:00] fought harder and harder in this struggle against displacement. Well, Cha-Cha Jiménez refounds the Young Lords and sets up an office at Wilton and Grace, and we build this coalition. And I remember, you know, havin’ them -- really what, to me, was a great honor of 14 �taking Cha-Cha around on that home distribution route with the Black Panther Party newspaper, with a shopping bag full of Black Panther Party newspapers to deliver the Panther paper. And that was how Cha-Cha could meet a large number of families in Uptown that we were workin’ with ’cause he went around on that route with me. And so Cha-Cha starts to get known in Uptown, and he’s got the bases that the Young Lords that have been refounded are building around Wilton and Grace, and then in 1974 [00:31:00] declares his candidacy for alderman of the 46th Ward. There’s gonna be an election in February of ’75. He declared a good year prior to the election because we knew we needed time to build. And I’ll always remember the button, which was a picture of Cha-Cha Jiménez and the slogan, “The dawning of a new day,” and what’s in Spanish, “Un nuevo dia, nuevo --” JJ: El amanecer -- PS: -- El amanecer JJ: -- un nuevo dia. PS: -- un nuevo dia. And it was a big button, and we’d sell ’em for a dollar to raise money, and more and more people who were meeting Cha-Cha Jiménez, hearin’ about him were buyin’ that button, and the button was startin’ to, like, grow wings and fly or somethin’. One of the things I remember in particular was a woman named Irene Jamison who died just a few years back in Uptown -- she was very [00:32:00] old by then -- who was really the matriarch of a large, extended family of Whites from West Virginia. She was the widow of somebody who died of black lung disease, couldn’t get her benefits, was a founder of the Chicago Area 15 �Black -- in fact, the Chicago Area Black Lung Association, which ultimately came to have about 900 members, ex-coal miners from all around the Chicago area. Because we found out they were displaced coal miners just scattered out everywhere with this base that we had in Uptown. She was the founder. When she put on that Cha-Cha Jiménez button, that served notice on a whole extended family and network of people that somethin’ was changing. And there were people in her extended family who had real problems with racism. You know, they didn’t use [00:33:00] the word Black people, they used another word, and those people start to get pulled in because you gotta realize, conditions in Uptown, this was no picnic. Conditions in Uptown were really getting rough. Uptown had always been very rough. I remember when I interviewed David Hernandez for a project I was doin’ a few years ago, Puerto Rican poet, and a close friend of Cha-Cha Jiménez, and someone who was very much part of the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign for alderman, saying that he remembered. He lived on Clifton Avenue, I found out, when it was burning down to build the college. He, through process of displacement and everything else, just that sea of people, he came in there, and he saw the Young Patriots [00:34:00] and was impressed by the fact that these poor, White people from the South were starting to see a class-based fight and not a fight of White against Black or White against Puerto Rican. And he said, “You know, I remember a few years before thinkin’ we’re all gonna wind up in Uptown, and that what Uptown was, compared to the other neighborhoods, it was a cauldron of oppression.” Let’s not romanticize it. What you had was these huge buildings that existed for all kinds of historical reason, 16 �goin’ back to the ’20s with a different social function in mind at the time. And so you had huge, multi-unit apartment buildings and [courtways?] that had all been turned into rental units. In many cases, six flats chopped up into much smaller apartments. Sometimes a six-flat would [00:35:00] survive as a six flat, but you had competition for the available housing because so many people from the housing crisis in Chicago, due to displacement by urban renewal, came to Uptown. So you had competition for the housing that’s gonna exacerbate the racial tensions, right, and the racial conflicts because people are in that conflict for housing. And that’s the root of some of the gang violence between young people that really started to happen. And then you had the city coming up with plans for urban renewal that were gonna transform, and it was known that the plan was for people not to be there anymore, so what does that do to landlords, what kind of landlord is now attracted, right, to come in, and what kind of landlord leaves? Because people who own the buildings see, okay, the plan is for these folks not to be there. [00:36:00] So I’m gonna make a killin’ here, I’m gonna bleed this building, which is already overcrowded and already rundown, and I’m gonna bleed it, right? And then eventually I can burn it down, collect some insurance, and then somebody else gonna come in and buy it, and I’ll make a pile of money. So what is this? So that’s this slow, agonizing process in which arson for profit begins to increase. And arson for profit wasn’t just that some hustler wanted to burn down a building, it was who was putting the people up to it. It was because there was a plan at the highest levels to displace a community and remake it for a different class of people. So that’s the Uptown that I’m talkin’ 17 �about. And, you know, I remember actually, there was a professor who said, “Well, you know, it sounds like [00:37:00] not fertile ground for a great movement because the problems are so oppressive, right?” And I said, “Yeah, but a movement happened because the will was there and because of the other things that I said, different people comin’ together.” So what I’m sayin’ is that when people made that commitment to the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign for alderman, which made displacement the key issue... When people made that commitment and reached into community across racial lines, right, to say, “I’m a hillbilly from West Virginia and I’m gonna support this Puerto Rican, ex-street gang leader, right, whose cousin I might have been, you know, fightin’ with, with a knife last year, right? [00:38:00] I’m gonna reach across these lines in order to make this alliance.” And I guess what I’m saying is it’s not a simple, kind of, easy thing. This is happening under conditions of crisis, of a community in crisis, a community that’s experiencing worse and worse arson, people are dyin’ in these fires, a community that’s experiencing worse and worse lead poisoning, a community where the war on poverty kinds of programs that had been put in are bein’ pulled out and where industry is leaving the city, and there’s fewer and fewer jobs, a community in crisis. And the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign, once again, and I say you cannot overestimate the importance of the struggle of the Young Lords in Lincoln Park in terms of [00:39:00] beginning to define this tradition of political struggle against displacement. And where it makes -- you know, because Puerto Ricans had been displaced as part of their history as colonized people, you know, there’s these profound connections. Just as you 18 �can’t underestimate the importance of the Young Lords in Lincoln Park as an inspiration to people who then carry this on. Now, you can’t underestimate the importance of the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign to defining a situation in which the most oppressed people in Uptown were gonna be the defining opposition. Remember Uptown is not by itself in the 46th Ward, so you’ve got Lake Shore Drive on the east, and you’ve got a community to the west, you know, that’s, kind of, homeowners, [00:40:00] and then you got the huge population of Uptown. There was, kind of, a Lakefront liberal independence set and had good people. And I remember you got the -- when Cha-Cha got the endorsement of IPO, which was the Independent Precinct Organization, which existed -- okay, we don’t need to. You know, kind of middle class, White, liberal, independent, precinct organization. Well, that wasn’t a foregone conclusion that he was gonna get that endorsement. That took a lotta work because there were independent, Lakefront liberals who were accustomed to being the opposition, and, you know, it’s not the disparaging one. You had Bill Singer in Lincoln Park, and Dick Simpson in the 44th, and [Mike Kriloff?] in the 49th, and then later David Orr. So there’s a certain tradition, [00:41:00] and the 46th Ward’s supposed to fall in, right? But what happened here was -- and the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign was the first major step in doing that -- a movement of poor people’s coalition came to define what the opposition was gonna be in the 46th Ward. The Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign, I personally will never forget, one of the things that I remember about the Cha-Cha Jiménez for alderman campaign was that it was the partying-est campaign I have ever seen. I think it was a profound understanding of exactly 19 �where we’re at the time and what we needed to do. You had to get people socializing with each other. It wasn’t a foregone conclusion that you were gonna be able to bring African Americans, and Puerto Ricans, and poor Whites, and Native Americans [00:42:00] together in a coalition. So I remember the assignment was every Friday night, we are goin’ to have a party at the Young Lord’s office, and we did that for weeks and weeks. And if you were tired, you were goin’ to that party all right, every Friday night, and there would be a lot of Puerto Rican music at that party, right? And we would cajole, and coax, and get people to overcome whatever fear they had, bring poor Whites from Uptown, especially those gettin’ involved in the campaign, right, to the party at the Young Lords. But every Saturday night, there was another party. Every Saturday night, you organized the party in the precinct in one of the precincts you were working in at the home of one of the people. And so we had a party every Friday and every Saturday night for many weeks running, and it was really, sort of, our main recruiting tool to get [00:43:00] people recruited to be workers in the campaign and to get ’em to stay because they started lookin’ forward to this. So that was one of the things I remember about the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign, that and many, many, many hours of canvasing. And Irene Jamison putting on that button and what that did in terms of a large, extended network. It’s significant enough without creating myths, you know, without a basis in truth. The place where the poor, White support for Cha-Cha Jiménez was strongest was the part of Uptown that was from Montrose, South, and it took in that huge stretch on Kenmore from Irving to Montrose, which is now pretty well gentrified and is not the Kenmore it 20 �used to be. [00:44:00] But it was almost like a world unto itself because you had the L tracks to the west, and then you had instead of an eighth of a mile and then an intersec-(break in audio) PS: -- a quarter of a mile from Irving to Buena, and then that circle, Buena circle, and then a quarter of a mile from Buena to Montrose. And it’s all solid housing, and it’s, kind of, enclosed in a way because you got the L tracks on one side. So it’s almost a neighborhood unto itself in some ways, and it’s a huge concentration of poor people, including many poor Whites. What I’m sayin’ is that though, so south of Montrose, that’s where you’re right in proximity with the Puerto Ricans that have moved partly into those Uptown blocks, and partly into the Wilton and Grace area. That’s also where you have all the African American people in the Courtyards on Broadway, just two short blocks over [00:45:00] and directly parallel to Kenmore Street, all right, which was public housing. And in the really brutal and sudden displacement of the African American families from that public housing became the subject of the Avery suit that was a major challenge to the urban renewal plans in Uptown. What I’m saying is this is the area, the southern part of Uptown where you have the mixing, where you have people just rubbin’ shoulders with each other. And I was workin’ down there every day and knew, kind of, every crack in the sidewalk. And I remember sayin’ to myself early on, “Man, we ain’t gonna be able to do this, people using these racist terms, and they livin’ right on top of each other practically, and there’s tensions. This is gonna be the place where we’re not gonna be able to do it.” [00:46:00] It turned out it was 21 �just the opposite. For all the tension, for all the little day-to-day conflicts, once a standard was created with the Black Panther Party newspaper, with a coalition led by a Puerto Rican revolutionary nationalist leader, Cha-Cha Jiménez. Once a standard was created, and that education was created, and all those survival programs were created, that became the place where people could grasp natural political allies. People of color are our natural allies. They could grasp that message even if they were fightin’ half their lives, you know, because of some kind of silly conflict, right? That was the place, in other words, where the political support grew the fastest, and that was where Cha-Cha got the most votes. So there was an area, I remember after the election, [00:47:00] from Gray Street to about Sunnyside and from Clifton to about Clarendon. You could use it, you could come up with a map for whatever archive this is goin’ into. And so it goes a little bit north of Montrose, but it’s mostly that south of Montrose area, Cha-Cha Jiménez was the alderman of that, about seven precinct area. Cha-Cha Jiménez won the total vote in that area, and he then got, you know, somewhere towards 4,000 votes, I can’t remember the exact total. And Chris Cohen, who was the regular democratic alderman, got many more votes because there wasn’t time to build. We got the IPO endorsement, but to go get massive support on Lake Shore Drive, that was not gonna to be any easy task, and it’s not like we had infinite [00:48:00] personnel and resources to do it. And then north of Montrose, which is the place where stereotypically it got called really Hillbilly Heaven, right, Broadway and Wilson, right, and Magnolia Street and Malden where we’re at right now, that was less. Now, there were some people who took a stand up 22 �there, and did some work, and got some votes, but there was less votes there. To have a chance to win, we would’ve had to massively get all those precincts too and get the ones in the south more massively than we did. And, you know, remember, we’re fightin’ again -- people are gettin’ displaced all the time, that means they’re losin’ their voter registration. And we still had that totally oppressive voter registration system where, you know, you had to wait until they did in-precinct registration twice a year [00:49:00] to get registered to vote. And then you’d get evicted and lose your registration and don’t know how to change your address, and the precinct, meanwhile, got his control vote in the poor community, the oppressed community. That’s maybe 10 percent of the total people that are eligible to vote, but he’s got the connections to keep them registered. And he’s got them under control for whatever reason he’s got them under control, so we’re up against a lot. So we couldn’t landslide in those precincts that we won, but still, that base was established. And there was no question from that point goin’ forward that the poor people’s movement in Uptown was gonna define the opposition. And I just think you can’t overestimate the importance of that in terms of what became... I don’t remember if I finished a sentence a few things back -- [00:50:00] where Uptown became the main place where that submerged tradition of opposition to displacement, that starts as soon as urban renewal starts right after World War II in Black communities saying there’s a master plan. People are saying there’s a master plan, and we’re not in it, urban renewal is Negro removal, and then the Puerto Ricans become such an important part of that that history. And that submerged tradition comes up for 23 �some air in Lincoln Park, and comes above ground, and becomes a massive movement for a short time, and is brutally repressed, and then into Uptown. And then Uptown I think became the place where that submerged tradition of opposition and resistance to displacement most crystallized into a massorganized, political movement against displacement. In terms of the fighting against racism, [00:51:00] in terms of having a reference point relating to selfdetermination, the fact that the Young Lords led that first salvo, that Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign, that first major political campaign in the 46th Ward in Uptown. That stamped on that movement a certain character that might not have been there otherwise. So just thinkin’ about, you could almost say, the ethic of makin’ contact with the people in their homes, right, and hookin’ ’em up with Survival Programs, and out of that, will come any number of spin-offs in organizing efforts. I always remember, I think it was Slim, he went to a political education at the Young Lords office, [00:52:00] and I believe it was after the campaign. And he came back, and he said, “Well, Paul, here’s what Cha-Cha said about you. He said he was telling people about goin’ to folks’ houses and keepin’ at it, knockin’ on doors, bringin’ ’em information.” And he said, “Yeah, yeah, it’s kind of like Paul, when he goes to the house, even the dog knows him.” (laughter) That’s my favorite compliment I think that was ever paid to me as an organizer, and it was quoted to me. But that went on with the Young Lords at Wilton and Grace. One of the things that happened, one of the pledges that Cha-Cha made, one of his campaign promises was, “Win or lose, we’re gonna have a nonpartisan, righteous [00:53:00] community service office come about as 24 �a result of this campaign.” This was a promise that Cha-Cha made as part of his campaign, and we then founded that. It started out at 4048 North Sheridan, so it’s right there, right there in that territory where both Wilton and Grace and Uptown from the north can feed into it, and people can use it. And Jim Chapman, who’s a lawyer who actually came out of that Lakefront independent movement, that Lakefront independent liberal movement, progressive, and who himself knew Cha-Cha as -- if I got it right, if I’m remembering right, himself knew Cha-Cha and the Young Lords from the Lincoln Park struggle and had, sort of, gotten organized and excited by it. [00:54:00] Jim Chapman committed to this service center, which started out as the Uptown People’s Law Center in a major way. It was the good officers of the law center that made the Black Lung Association possible, so it became... And the idea of the pledge for a nonpartisan service office put that in the context of a democratic machine that’s frontin’ for urban renewal and for gentrification and for the developers. And that considers itself to be the owner, all poor people, “Hey, ain’t you a Democrat, what are you, a Republican? Of course, you’re gonna vote for the -- you know, you’re gonna vote for the Democrat, you don’t know who this-so called independent --” That’s the line, so, but it’s such oppression because the Democratic Party machine has totally sold out to the developers, and to urban renewal, and to this unjust social order. So they’ve got their 46th [00:55:00] Ward regular democratic service office and to get anything from them, you have to be owned by them. You have to be like a serf paying, you know, homage to the to the boss, right? And if you go against them politically, you can’t get any help. We said, “Whether 25 �you vote for us or against us, this office is gonna be there for the people in the community. It’s gonna serve the people in the community,” and we did it, we started this office. That was a promise that came -- that’s something else that really came out of the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign. And in the early years after the campaign, something called the Coalition Against the Chicago 21 Plan came about, which was -- the 21 Plan was the extension starting in the early ’70s of the master plans in the ’60s [00:56:00] to take the area from -- and you can look at it and see how it’s carried out now from Cabrini Green, you know, from the Near North Side and the projects down to Pilsen and protect the Loop, your investments in the Loop by making it affluent. It’s all pretty much come to pass. Cha-Cha was part of and the Young Lords were part of building that initial Coalition Against the 21 Plan. You know, I guess the one last -- reminiscing about the campaign, I just gotta mention David Hernandez because, again, there was this cultural side to it, like the parties that I was talkin’ about. He had this poem called [“We Pack,”?] you know, and when I think of that poem, to me, he’s the Puerto Rican Allen Ginsberg. [00:57:00] To me, it’s like an epic, long poem about a people’s experience. It’s we pack our rice and beans, and it’s best done orally. He would deliver that poem orally at events for Cha-Cha’s campaign and at these parties, and everybody loved it. And it was about we pack as we’re bein’ forced to move again and again and again. So, you know, it was just this culture that was coming up, this culture really of resistance to displacement and what displacement does to people. You know, you finally keep goin’ back and forth to the school, and you get to where maybe the teachers will respect your kid a little 26 �bit. You finally find a doctor who’s not just a pill pusher. You’re working to stitch together a life. You find a store where you can get some credit [00:58:00] and where they won’t rip you off, right? You’re stitchin’ together a life and then bang, no, no, no, we’re gonna fix this place up real nice, but you can’t live here. Then you’re scattered out again, and you gotta start all over again. It’s out of this that this resistance comes and that -- then that Coalition Against the 21 Plan and other coalitions that were coming about from the early to the late ’70s, coalitions against the city’s plans, you know, really, were making anti-displacement the basis of demands. That the resources of the city be reorganized, you know, to create jobs, to create decent housing, to create a situation where people could have a future. It was the opposition and resistance [00:59:00] to displacement that was the basis for those kind of nascent, you know, coming about kind of coalitions. What happens, I think, is that it then all really gets channeled into the movement to take the fifth floor, and that’s the movement that elected Harold Washington. Okay. JJ: Before that, you also ran for alderman later or -- ? PS: Well, that was in connection with -- yeah, in conjunction with the Harold Washington campaign, right? It was when Harold ran. JJ: So if you want to -- PS: Right. JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) about your campaign there. PS: Right, you know, I guess we should say briefly that in terms of 46th Ward politics, after the Cha-Cha’s campaign in ’75, Helen Shiller ran in a special election in ’78, 27 �one of the old-line machine. I think, in essence, booted Chris Cohen, who they could never quite accept [01:00:00] because he came from the outside, from the New Frontier and the Great Society, and was sort of foisted on them, and they in turn were foisted on Uptown. They were Jewish machine Democrats who had to leave the West Side when it became Black, so there was always a certain weakness of the democratic machine here. But anyway, there was a special election because Cohen was finally induced to quit, and Helen ran in that, and then the regular election was just a year later in ’79. And it was an incredible campaign that massively involved a lot of people, that she undoubtedly really won. There was more time to win support, we’d been around longer, won a lot of support on Lake Shore Drive and all over the ward, the support in Uptown was just massive, there’s no doubt... She went into a runoff 800 votes ahead of [01:01:00] Axelrod, who was running for alderman for the machine and had been board committeeman for the Democrats for years. JJ: Now, this is the same Axelrod that’s --? PS: No, no, and not in the same family, I don’t think. Ralph Axelrod, but I think he’s a distant relative of the Elrod group, right? I think so, I was never terribly clear on that. But, kind of, yeah, that, sort of, or the hardcore machine Democrats from the Jewish side of it, really. So she goes to the runoff 800 votes ahead, it was unbelievable, nobody thought that would happen. I mean, people were just stunned, you know, and they brought in -- what’s -- oh, Victor De Grazia, right, that was the guy, a very expensive consultant who had run all kinds of governor campaigns and whatnot. [01:02:00] I think he ran Governor Walker’s campaign, 28 �and he came in and took that thing over, you know, and threw out anybody that -you know. He ran it, and it was the most vicious, there was violence, there was slander. One day somebody took black spray paint and sprayed it all over Helen’s face on every Helen Shiller poster, and it was the idea of black, Black Panthers, right? And, I mean, all the stops were pulled out, and he supposedly won with 50.5 percent of the vote or something to 49 point-some percent of the vote for Helen, but there’s no question that it was stolen, you know, just the fraud that we knew of. So, okay, so that was another step in [01:03:00] establishing this coalition led by poor people as the voice of opposition in the 46th Ward. A state senator named Harold Washington from the first congressional district made contact with us at the time of the Helen Shiller campaign. He had run for mayor when Daley Senior died, and they pulled off -- well, it’s gettin’ into so much details. They pulled off this racist move where Wilson Frost legally should have been the acting mayor, and they wouldn’t even let him be acting mayor for a day. I mean, the plantation politics of the city of Chicago in that era, it was so thick, it was so heavy. This guy could not even be allowed, even though he was supposed to, because of his position in the city council, be acting mayor for one day. They locked [01:04:00] the office; he couldn’t get in. And then they got Bilandic elected mayor, but Harold Washington, in his anger at this racism, who had come up through the democratic machine, ran for mayor in the special election that elected Bilandic, and made a surprising good showing. And Harold Washington, even at that right, he made contact with the Heart of Uptown 29 �Coalition and did a walk in Uptown with all kinds of -- the whole ragtag army of all the different races. Were you there then? JJ: Yeah. PS: Yeah, and he led us on a walk around Uptown, and he’s talkin’ to everyone, “Hey, vote for me, vote for me.” So then he came and did coffees. JJ: Yeah, in ’76, you’re not talkin’ about ’76? PS: I think ’77. JJ: Okay. PS: In ’77, the special election for mayor, right, right, ’77 would be the year. So then Helen runs in ’78, ’79, and Harold [01:05:00] came and hosted a bunch of coffees for her. So he started to build his bridges, and one of the main places he built his bridges as an African American South Side-based powerful politician who’s now defying the democratic machine is the movement in Uptown. So this movement in Uptown is starting to become part of a developing opposition in the city. And so then Harold -- you know, it’s a long -- you know, I don’t know that we -- I mean we couldn’t possibly tell the whole story tonight about the deci-- you know, the part that this grassroots coalition played in persuading Harold Washington to run for mayor. I guess what I wanna say is that, look, the primary thing is that it was an uprising of large numbers, huge numbers [01:06:00] of Black people in the city, African American people, against the racist democratic machine. It’s primarily that, but there’s this related and not totally the same phenomenon that is doing so much -- (break in audio) 30 �PS: -- contribute to the nature and the real content of this campaign, right? Who know -- an African American, the time was right for African American candidate to challenge the racist machine. But it wasn’t a foregone conclusion that somebody -- that Harold Washington, who I think really represented the most progressive, the most interested in coalitions across race lines of the leaders in the Black community, it wasn’t a foregone conclusion he was gonna be the candidate. That coalition, that poor people’s [01:07:00] coalition had a lot to do with what the nature of the Harold Washington campaign became, see, so I don’t wanna overstate that. Because above all, it’s an African American-led uprising, massive from the South Side and the West Side, but this is an important piece of it. And Harold was conscious in reaching out and building a coalition with that movement, so, you know, he decided to do it. There was a coalition called POWER, People Organized for Welfare and Employment Rights, which consisted of that -- I’m sure by that time, you were startin’ to get involved. M1: Yeah, I came in si-- I’ve been in Uptown since about ’58, but I worked on ChaCha’s campaign for a week on Dylan Avenue. PS: Right, right. M1: But I came in in ’79, we were getting ready [01:08:00] to keep Bernard Carey as state attorney, yeah, against Daley -- PS: Yeah, yeah. JJ: -- [another?] Daley, and that’s when we started -- PS: I definitely -- JJ: -- hangin’ out in Wilson Avenue again. 31 �PS: Yeah, I hear what you’re sayin’. So around that time comes about this People Organized for Welfare and Employment Rights coalition, which are people from Uptown and all kinds of places. We’re makin’ contact with communities we didn’t have contact before, Far South Side and all kinds of places, and we’re startin’ to talk about the key here is voter registration. Remember what I said, they’ve got the city locked up because they’ve got a voter registration system that’s closed. Where you got two times a year that you can register in your own precinct 30 days before the election, and otherwise, you’re not registered, and the precinct captain will control, [01:09:00] will have various ways to disenfranchise people and control who’s gonna be registered to vote. And masses and masses of poor people never even vote because they’re not registered. So, you know, we came about with this idea, let’s pressure the board of elections and make them send registrars to the welfare and unemployment offices. That’s where our people are. Somebody, just a grassroots person from the community thought of this idea at a meeting, “Hey, why don’t we get people registered to vote? They got their ID on ’em, they gotta have that because they’re goin’ to do their business with the welfare department or unemployment office. Make ’em send registrars there, and we’ll be out there runnin’ around and gettin’ people to go out, [01:10:00] you know, I guess outside to a van where they’d be set up and register to vote.” And we were able to pressure them to do it because there’s a movement gathering and there’s political pressure. So through that and other means, tens of thousands of new voters are put on the rolls. Harold said, “You want me to run?” Harold meanwhile had defied the democratic machine, ran against a handpicked 32 �machine candidate for congressman of the first district, and won. So now, he’s got a seat in the Congress, and Harold’s got a seat in the Congress -(break in audio) JJ: Okay, go ahead. PS: So Harold Washington has a seat in the Congress, a growing reputation. Why does he wanna run in some, you know, tiltin’ at the windmills mayoral campaign, you know, against this entrenched [01:11:00] big-city machine, when he can be a progressive congressman and the machine doesn’t -- they don’t care what you say in Washington, you know? JJ: Yeah. PS: You can stand for anything you want to in Washington. He says, “You want me to do this, eh? Well, you register me, whatever it was, I think 50,000 people to vote.” Well, we did it. That oppressed people’s coalition was key to that. And ultimately, I mean, we had posed that issue in Uptown from the start. As a civil rights issue, they denied people the right to vote in Mississippi, they’re denying our right to vote here. They have all kinds of ways that they disenfranchise us. We have to get registered to vote; we have to demand that the registration process become opened up to people. In Uptown, we started out... I’m only gonna backtrack for a second ’cause I could get into 10 million things about the old days [01:12:00] in Uptown. We started out every Saturday morning, we’d hustle up some old beaters, and we’d line up some people, and we would drive four carloads of people to city hall early Saturday morning, wakin’ ’em up. They were out partying the night before, “Get up, you promised me you’d go, get out of 33 �bed,” and we started registering people to vote that way. And then gradually, we would demand things like a special day where the registrars from the board of election would be set up at the firehouse or the library, and we’d bring people. Around Harold Washington, that movement around voter registration grows and grows, and that’s what made possible his election because then the voters were there. People were enfranchised, and people started really grasping, “Hey, [01:13:00] we could change this city.” And just like Cha-Cha was the right candidate in 1975 in the 46th Ward, this guy was the right candidate for a movement like that in Chicago. So it’s 1982, and Harold Washington’s runnin’ for mayor, and we got this movement in Uptown, and now, we gotta figure out what we’re gonna do. So the fact that he’s African American for some White people, poor, White people, that might be even more problematic for some of ’em than somebody who’s Puerto Rican, right. And he’s from the South Side -- well, the South Side. Helen wasn’t gonna run that year, and we, at the last second [01:14:00] said, “Well, we’ve gotta have a standard bearer for Harold Washington, we may not be able to win, it’s --” You know, meanwhile, there’s a Lakefront liberal, a very good woman, let me not disparage her at all, Charlotte Newfeld, who really a good, solid, progressive person, and more and more so over the years, and she’s, you know, happily still with us. Charlotte Newfeld had been runnin’ for a year, but the nature of the politics, she wasn’t gonna be a standard bearer for Harold Washington in the 46th Ward. There was not one of these White independents that held office that endorsed Harold Washington in the primary. People that now remember about the Washington 21, and that there 34 �were White aldermen and this White person, not in that primary when the racism was being stoked up by the democratic machine because [01:15:00] that was what they were scared shitless and that was what they had, right? That was what they had, and they stoked up the racism, Vrdolyak and whatnot with everything they had. And so what are we gonna do, she’s not gonna endorse Harold Washington in the primary? She’s worried about, you know, havin’ the support of her base on the Lakefront and whatnot. We know she’s pretty good on housing, you know, we’re in this battle over housing in Uptown, we’ve gotta force a situation where the fight for affordable housing in Uptown, by that time we were in a battle to try to win a people’s plan and see if we could get 1100 units of low-cost housing to just begin to replace all the stuff that had been burned down and demolished [01:16:00] so that we could have a future in the community. We’ve gotta have some kind of standard bearer, even if we don’t win the election, to keep that issue in front, so... We were, kind of, behind because we were also taking people, full-time organizers in Uptown, and putting them all over the city to deal with this citywide campaign and try to get White support, White votes for Harold in other communities. We’ve diluted some of our strength in terms of that core of full-time, real cadre, kind of, organizers, based in Uptown who were elsewhere. So one night, we had already done our Christmas program, it was the tail end of December. You know, we did this Christmas program every year where people in the community get together [01:17:00] and hustle everything they can, hustle up, and then we got gifts and bags of groceries for thousands of people in the community. We’d already done that, that was over. It was the very 35 �end of December, and Slim Coleman says to me, “Paul, we gotta have a candidate, we gotta have an Uptown favorite son candidate, and you’re the one we want.” And I said, “No, I’m busy with the Black Lung Association, no, no, no, no, no,” and he says to me, “[Ison Cox?] says --” He’s a White brother who had come in with Helen’s campaign. Do you remember, you’d know if you saw him. Ison was just a tremendous guy, but he said, “Paul, do you realize that Ison Cox, this White guy from Missouri somewhere is telling me that he needs a candidate [01:18:00] that will support a White candidate that will be supporting Harold Washington, so he can get people on Kenmore to vote for Harold Washington? Are you telling me that you’re goin’ to deny Ison Cox his White candidate?” “Well, man, I guess not.” So we put together this campaign at the absolute last second, and we had a whole bunch of people that were out there scattered out, and, you know, I had to stop what I was doin’ with the Black Lung Association and then do all these endless series of candidates’ nights. There were like four candidates. There was Orbach, the guy who did win, who had, in mafia-like fashion, nonviolently stabbed Axelrod in the back. Axelrod, who had won as alderman, had brought Orbach up through the ranks, and then [01:19:00] after Axelrod almost lost, Orbach cut deals with Vrdolyak, who then told Axelrod, who was absolutely intending to run for reelection, “You’re not runnin’, Jerry Orbach’s runnin’.” So then a guy that really liked Ralph, Ralph Axelrod named Art Smith, a police, a Chicago police officer ran, and he had this little base among seniors, and Charlotte Newfeld ran, you know, standard bearer, that kind of Lakefront independent movement, and Orbach, and then I’m in there. So there were these 36 �endless series of candidates nights, and I was havin’ more and more fun, and we were gradually kinda... Charlotte who figured she was absolutely entitled to this ’cause she had been workin’ at it for a year, linin’ up all the ducks and talkin’ to all kinds of people, was startin’ to worry. And I pledged from the start if I’m not in the runoff and Charlotte is, I’m endorsing her, [01:20:00] but we want Charlotte to endorse Harold Washington if she gets in that runoff. And we’ve gotta have someone in the primary that’s endorsing him, and we gotta have somebody who’s gonna speak strong for the poor people’s movement in Uptown and for housing. So that was the deal, and I wound up getting 4,000 votes, Harold almost -- and that brought -- you know, in that way, above all, I was able to mobilize a lot of poor White votes for Harold Washington. So that, sort of, preserved the honor of the coalition in Uptown, where there was massive support for Harold Washington, and there was a need for an automatic standard bearer to organize that. Charlotte got about 4,600 votes, and Orbach had what it was, the front runner, and then was a -- and Art Smith had somewhat less although not a totally insignificant number of votes. [01:21:00] So then it’s Orbach against Newfeld in the runoff, I endorsed Charlotte, I worked hard for her. A lot of people in the community couldn’t quite bring themselves to go all the way, but she did very well in Uptown, and she lost by even fewer votes than Helen. She lost by some 60 votes I think it was. No, that’s six votes, that was when Orbach beat Axelrod for ward committeeman, and I think so anyway. Anyway, it was incredibly close, and it was probably stolen from her also, but she just didn’t quite make it, which is unfortunate, ’cause that would’ve been one more vote for 37 �Harold in the city council. But she endorsed Harold, and she strongly endorsed our program in the heart of Uptown. So that’s what my candidacy accomplished, and then I went back to what I always went back to and never ran for office again. [01:22:00] So that’s the story of my political career, so... And Harold, as we know, won and had to stand up against the most vicious kind of racist campaign that was run against him, won the primary, and then won the general against the Republican Epton, who had all kinds of machine Democrats defecting to him. Their slogan was “Epton before it’s too late.” Cha-Cha Jiménez, when I was in that whirlwind campaign for alderman came to -- he wasn’t living in the 46th Ward at that time, and he came there and spent the day goin’ around with me, talkin’ to especially Latino voters about my candidacy, kind of, returning the compliment of all the work I did for him when he was running for alderman. So Harold Washington [01:23:00] did win that election and that gave us a lot of breathing space in Uptown. It’s a long story what then happened with Harold Washington and what happened with Uptown, and maybe that’s best left for another time. Because I think we wanted to, sort of, key in on the relationship of the struggle in Uptown with the Young Lords, and how it plays into Harold Washington in my campaign for alderman. JJ: Okay, I think that’s good. PS: Okay. JJ: What do you think...? So we think, we’ll leave that for another time, but, what, anything else related to the process of goin’ to Harold? We also worked in the Logan Square area in the office over there, you know, was it a continuation of the 38 �struggle? I mean, did you see it as a continuation of your campaign, Helen’s campaign, how did you see that? [01:24:00] PS: Yeah, absolutely, and I guess what -- you know, the one thing that I would say -- JJ: I mean, the Lincoln Park -- PS: Yeah, yeah, oh, well, yeah, absolutely. In other words, from Lincoln Park, the migration into Uptown, and -- JJ: I mean what did you see? I’m just saying -- you know? PS: Right, and Uptown as the place that’s fightin’ this -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the same. PS: -- right, displacement. And then the Uptown support for Harold Washington, which, again, has this little-known role in terms of the character of the movement that elected him, right? JJ: Yeah. PS: All that comes out of that massive sea of humanity displaced every step of the way and then into Uptown -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) PS: -- and resisting displacement. JJ: Right, resisting it. PS: That’s, no, no, absolutely Helen’s campaign, [01:25:00] my campaign, the election of Harold Washington, you know, the support that Harold got in Uptown and in the 46th Ward. You know, I guess the one thing that I would say, and I said it in that other interview, and maybe it’s something for young people comin’ up to think about. As I look back on it, and I, sort of, wanna make sure I don’t get 39 �misunderstood. Unreservedly, it was a great victory to take the fifth floor, to elect Harold Washington, and it was a great defeat for racism in the city. And at the same time, there’s an extent to which, remember I was talkin’ about, that you had this, the beginnings of a city-wide coalition taking on [01:26:00] displacement and destabilization of our lives by displacement, and urban renewal, and challenging, you know, and tryin’ to fundamentally challenge how the city is structured. You know, you can’t ever do it in one city, it would have to be something that would catch on elsewhere, but you can do what you can, you do what you can in one city. I guess what I’m saying is that the Harold Washington election was this massive thing in which that was one piece, that was a piece. And we had a newspaper called the All Chicago City News, which was a great vehicle and which did so much to help define the most progressive positions that came out of the Harold Washington campaign and give voice to different communities that were supporting Harold Washington. [01:27:00] What the All Chicago City News did was supply this tremendous amount of information that supported what Harold was saying around neighborhoods first. And the problem is that the resources are all goin’ to the Loop, and Chicago, you know, it’s the neighborhoods where Chicago’s people are. It’s the small neighborhood-based businesses that are actually employing more people, and we are going to redress this imbalance of resources, and then Harold, you know, did everything he could to deliver. You know, instead of playin’ favorites with his political base, he evenly divided the capital funds and fixed streets in every ward and said to these rotten machine aldermen who were trying to sabotage him at every point, “You can 40 �decide which streets, right, in your ward, just make sure it’s done [01:28:00] for the neighborhoods in your ward, right?” Here’s what I still have to say. Neighborhoods first, redress the imbalance between the Loops and the neighborhoods. The movement of that is in tandem with and in harmony with that movement against displacement. Is it the same thing? Not exactly. So I guess what I’m sayin’ is that our energies, once you win a victory, like winnin’ the fifth floor, and these powerful forces are trying to destroy that, the Harold Washington government, right? The most energetic people are the most radical people who come out of that coalition, and their energies are increasingly absorbed into defending the fifth floor, [01:29:00] and defending the Washington government, and sending people all over the place in these special elections to get alderman elected, and it’s all great. But that barely being born citywide coalition that, in a way, had a more radical program, you could say, a deeper challenge. In the end, Harold Washington dies, and it’s not there, and, whoops, we lost that. The organizational form isn’t there anymore, and there’s a whole new set of circumstances around the whole, sort of, counterrevolution you could say that’s being carried out by Daley and all kinds of things have happened in the world from the end of the Cold War to, you know, republican-dominated era. And, oh, it’s not -- [01:30:00] you know, some of that we had that starts in so many ways in Lincoln Park, right? You know, of course, it’s the Panther Party, and it’s Fred Hampton, and it’s the struggle in Lincoln Park, and the struggle in Uptown, and in Pilsen. In some ways, we neglected to continue to develop, and Harold himself, to continue to develop that totally independent grassroots, the 41 �organizational forms that would’ve been there when things started to get reversed. And Harold was known to have said in internal kinds of meetings and things, “Don’t let me co-opt you, I can’t help it. I gotta be the mayor of the third largest city in the country. This is a world major city, right, in this capitalist country, and I gotta be the mayor of it, and you can’t let me co-opt [01:31:00] you,” but there’s an extent to which it happened. It’s not Harold’s fault, I think Harold did what he was supposed to do, and whose fault is it? We had to defend his government. You got only so many resources, you got so many hours in the day, you’re workin’ day in and day out, and I think something was lost though. So I think that as people in the next generation consider the grassroots movements we’re talking about, and how they feed in Chicago, feed into this massive victory of electing of a progressive African American mayor who’s so good in so many ways, you gotta [01:32:00] figure out now, you know, how do you keep certain thing, not get totally absorbed into defending a government. And I suspect that problem has existed in plenty of places in the world but, okay. JJ: Okay, what do you think? PS: I think maybe that’s... I see, this is -- well, so when you come back in May, you wanna do -- (break in audio) M1: Just call me Uncle Junior from now on. PS: Uncle Junior? M1: Nah, everybody still does. You know, when you get older, you only got a half a dozen friends, and they all call you Junior. 42 �PS: (laughs) Makes you feel young, man. M1: Yeah, (inaudible). JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) M1: It’s unique. This is [01:33:00] my girlfriend’s son -- PS: Yeah. JJ: And -- (break in audio) PS: (inaudible) JJ: (inaudible) M1: Yeah, once it settles (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) PS: I’m thinking, if I had gotten that to you in advance, then you could’ve keyed in. JJ: I [keyed?] -- PS: Knowin’ what else you’re doin’ with this -- JJ: Right. PS: -- you know well -- JJ: What I’m tryin’ to [define?] is, we’re tryin’ to describe the history of the origins of the Young Lords. We want to include as much as we can about that, but what we’re trying -- you know, (inaudible) tell the different parts of the story. PS: Right, yeah, ’cause I wasn’t on the scene, so everything I say about that is secondhand. JJ: Right. PS: It’s what I learned from you. (laughter) 43 �JJ: That’s (inaudible) [01:34:00] the good part is more, I’ll ask you to -- I’ll start with what is the connection to the Young Lords in that. PS: Right. JJ: And then you’ll probably start talking about the -- PS: Uptown. JJ: -- when you lived in Lincoln Park and then -- PS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: -- when you came to Uptown and how you got, you know, the Intercommunal Survival Committees and -- PS: Are you gonna be able to interview Slim for this? END OF VIDEO FILE 44 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d3cd1d7c00cc51843ba3bf4573e5c18.mp4 afd1db511d66f6c60911e3c6e138d7b7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Paul Siegel vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Pobreza--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Siegel_Paul Title A name given to the resource Paul Siegel video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Siegel, Paul Description An account of the resource Paul Siegel was a precinct captain in the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign (1973-1975). He was also a member of the Inter Communal Survival Committees that moved to Chicago to concentrate their forces and work in uptown organizing the poor at the grassroots level. Mr. Siegel also ran for alderman of the 46th ward and nearly won. Like the Jiménez campaign, his run helped to lay important groundwork in the ward for the victory that arrived with Helen Shiller’s election in 1987. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Poverty--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ce0168d961bc0bb41880d703e207897.pdf 01c87c76c276c326585a696beb82ded9 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Helen Shiller Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/10/2012 Biography and Description Helen Shiller, a Jewish American born in 1947 in Long Island, New York. Her father had immigrated to the United States from Latvia and her mother from Belarus. She moved to Chicago’s Uptown neighborhood in 1972, living on N. Malden Street. Initially she drove a cab and worked as a waitress. At an early age, she became active in the anti-Vietnam War movement while attending college at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. In Chicago, she helped to organize the Intercommunal Survival Committee with Rev. Walter “Slim” Coleman. The organization functioned as a sort of white support arm of the Black Panther Party and later evolved into the Heart of Uptown Coalition, a group dedicated to providing essential services to the poor. She also edited Keep Strong magazine.In 1978 Ms. Shiller ran for Alderman of Chicago’s 46th ward, building on the organizing work done by the Jiménez for Aldermanic Campaign 1973-1975, and making fair housing and stopping the displacement of Latinos and the poor a centerpiece of her campaign. She was defeated, largely as a result of welldocumented corruption and unfair campaign practices by the opposition. In 1979, she ran again. This time she won the primary but did not have the mandatory 51% minimum of the vote. In a run-off election, she lost by a mere 200 votes to the regular machine candidate. �Again, intimidation, racist threats, and a major fire in her campaign headquarters just three weeks before the election made her campaign especially difficult. Ms. Shiller also worked on the Harold Washington Campaign for mayor of Chicago, operating the print shop, Justice Graphics, and publishing a bilingual newspaper, the All-Chicago City News with Mr. Coleman. In 1987, she again ran for Alderman of the 46th ward. This time she won and served six terms, holding the office until 2011 when she retired. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. HELEN SHILLER: Okay. JJ: Just, if you want to (inaudible), or if you want to give me your name and your date of birth and where you were born. HS: Okay. So, my name is Hellen Shiller. I was born on November 24, 1947, and I was born in Brooklyn, New York. JJ: Oh, you’re from Brooklyn, New York? HS: Yeah. Came to Chicago in June of 1972. I was living in Racine and came here a couple of times before then, once the winter before, the Christmas of 1971, I think. It was either ’70, ’71 or ’71, ’72. I actually can’t remember. It would have had to have been ’70, ’71. I couldn’t have come here that next year. JJ: How did you get to Racine? [00:01:00] HS: I went there from Madison, Wisconsin where I went to college. JJ: So, you grew up -- HS: I grew up in -- JJ: What part of the Brooklyn? HS: I was born in Brooklyn. We lived in Queens. Then we lived in Long Island. When I was 14, there were some family issues. My parents decided the best way to deal with that was to get me away from them. They didn’t tell me that. (Laughs) So, they sent me away thinking -- me thinking, “Oh, okay. I really screwed up somewhere here.” But they sent me away to school to Vermont. 1 �JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: So, they sent me away to school, and I was there for three years. And I graduated. It was a very small school, a hundred students, in Vermont. And I wanted to go to a college that was as far away as I could get, at least far enough away that to visit you had to take a plane from the East Coast -- it was harder to travel in those days -- with enough [00:02:00] people that I could get lost and where I could study history and with a very short application. Those were my four requirements. So, the counselor gave me two schools to apply to. I applied to some smaller schools. Didn’t like it. But then, gave me two schools to apply to. One was Madison, and the other was University of Michigan Ann Arbor. And I got the response from Madison first, so I went there. JJ: Okay, so, you mentioned history there. So, what was the --first of all, are there any other brothers and sisters? Are there siblings -- HS: I’ve got -- I grew up with -- JJ: -- and what are their names? HS: I grew up with three brothers. But I have several others running around, brothers and sisters. But I grew up with three brothers. JJ: What are their names? What are some of their names? HS: Bob, Ed, and Larry. They’re five and six years older than me and six years younger than me. So, I was like right in the middle. [00:03:00] JJ: And what do they do now and where (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: The oldest is no longer with us. The other one has been -- was a journalist for years, and then, he did public relations. He lives in Canada and still does that. 2 �And the youngest one is a math whiz who does something with computers that I don’t quite understand. (Laughter) He’s a consultant apparently. JJ: And no sisters at all? HS: I have two sisters that are Brandon’s age, my son, who is now 41 actually. One of them -- JJ: He’s 41 now? HS: Yeah. So, I had two sisters. I was the only one in the family who actually literally, in either family, other than their parents who knew that they were our siblings until the youngest one was about 17 or 18. [00:04:00] And she figured it out and asked me, and I said yeah. We look pretty much alike. And she, the youngest one, died in childbirth, died a few -- she died a few years ago. The doctor -- she was nine months pregnant. And she lived in rural Pennsylvania. They were a half hour away from the hospital. And the doctor put her on bed rest to do a cesarian because he didn’t want to do it sooner. He gave her a week. The night before she was supposed to -- because she had some issues. The night before she was supposed to go have the cesarean, she stood up and went over to the couch to watch a movie with her husband. And when she stood up, when the movie was over, she had a blood clot. She had an embolism. It went into her lungs and killed her instantly. And by the time they got her to the hospital, the baby couldn’t survive either. So, we lost them both. That was really, really bad. [00:05:00] And then, she had another sister. She was the youngest. Then the next oldest was a girl who -- another sister who just couldn’t deal with the family dynamics. So, I see her very rarely. 3 �JJ: But you didn’t -- so, you didn’t grow up all together? HS: No, I only grew up with -- JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Plus I had another brother and another -- I had an older brother that I never met, but I found out about him even though my mother knew and had told -- my older brother who survived knew. But I never knew that we had any older siblings. But it turns out that we did have an older brother who is 20 years older than me. And his sons, who I guess are my nephews and are just maybe 10 years younger than me, found me a few years back. And that’s how I found out about them. And then, everyone acknowledged it. It’s like weird. I mean, I don’t understand the reason for these family secrets, honestly. So, big deal? (Laughs) I mean, what is the secret that’s someone’s there? So anyway, I discovered all sorts of family members over the years. [00:06:00] And then, I have a younger brother who is California who rides motorcycles. (Laughs) I mean, he does -- he works. He does IT stuff. JJ: He does another job, but (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: That’s his thing. You see him all the time on a motorcycle. He’s about seven years older than -- six or seven years older than Brandon. JJ: So, you grew up with both parents? HS: I grew up with both parents and three brothers. JJ: And what kind of work did they do (inaudible)? HS: My mother was a nurse, and then, she taught health in schools. Actually, her pension was from the state teacher’s pension fund in New York. And my father 4 �was a chemist who made paint [inaudible] and lacquers in the ’40s. He couldn’t - they wouldn’t accept him into the Army because he had lied on his age to come here because he came from Latvia when he was 12 years old alone. He had to pretend he was 16. [00:07:00] And so, he lied about his age. And so, everything had him four years old. JJ: So, he came here in (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: So, here’s my dad’s story. This is actually a very cool story, sort of deep story. He was born in 1908. And sometime -- WWI started in Latvia, in Europe around 1914. I don’t know the exact dates. His father was a tailor in a town called Liepāja, which is on the coast of the Baltic Sea. The capital of Latvia is Riga, which is 240 kilometers -- I don’t know how many miles that is -- northwest of Liepāja. So, it’s sort of like that or the other way around if you’re looking from your direction. (Laughs) And Riga is the capital. They’re both port cities. But Riga is the capital. Liepāja is where they lived. And then, father east, obviously, [00:08:00] is the Russia. This is before the Soviet Union. His father used to go to St. Petersburg in Russia every now and then to get textiles for the tailor shop. In around 1914 -- so, my dad would have been around six -- he went there to get -- five or six, actually -- he went there to get his textiles and on the way back got stuck in Riga because Germany had invaded, and they had occupied most of Latvia, everything to the west. But they were stopped right outside Riga by the Latvian Guard. So, his dad was stuck in Riga and he was in Liepāja with his family. So, in order for the family to survive, my dad, who was the oldest of four, would take things from the tailor shop and sell them on the street. So, he -- that’s 5 �how they survived until the war was over. His dad returned. And an uncle -[00:09:00] after his dad returned -- an uncle from the States sent them some money for one person to come to the states. And usually, that was the father, and then, they’d bring everyone else later. But because his father had been gone for four years, they decided -JJ: His father went -- what? HS: Had been gone for four years. Apparently -- we pieced this together, my brother and I. And it turns out I have a cousin who survived the war, which we didn’t think we had. So, we rediscovered our family there. And between my brother and my cousin -- this is what we figured out. That his family thought they were giving him a reward. They were rewarding him for coming. He thought he was being punished, which is why I went to school -- it resonated with me when I heard this story how people think one thing when actually the reason for it is entirely different, the opposite. And so, he came to the U.S. thinking he had been really sort of disowned by his family and at a time when it was very hard to communicate. This was 1920. [00:10:00] So, he came here. He always talked about going to Chicago and then from Chicago coming back to New York. But I’ve checked the manifests, and his cousin -- his family member who vouched for him was from New York. So, I’m not sure about all that. But I know he was in New York, stayed there, was self-educated, came over on the boat knowing five languages. None of them were English. He was very shy, was embarrassed that he didn’t know English. He started studying it, learned that English is a phonetic language, could not figure out how to spell his name, which was Shimyacha, was 6 �really, really embarrassed by it. So, he picked the name Shiller because he knew that was a poet. That meant that must be someone important. He knew he was famous. JJ: So, what was the last name? HS: Shimyacha. And he -- and they don’t know how to spell it either. I have a census from 1940 from Liepāja where it’s spelled twice two different ways. (Laughs) So, he [00:11:00] took the name Shiller, and he intentionally took the “C” out of the name Shiller because he had learned that English was a phonetic language and he was going to be proper about it. He was coming to America. So, that’s how we got the name. And so, I kept it. I gave it to my son. We’ve kept that name. It’s been our thing. So anyway, he came here. He didn’t communicate with anyone in his family. And then, when the war came to Europe, the Second World War, he knew that they were going to have a problem, and he knew that when the news started coming out about Jews being rounded up, et cetera, he just assumed everyone was killed. At the same time, he tried to sign up to fight in the war because he really wanted to fight fascism. Fascism was a thing for him, always. And they wouldn’t let him because he was too old. But he wasn’t, and he couldn’t tell him because he then would have been totally illegal. So, [00:12:00] he ended up starting his own business. (Laughs) It was a long way around. But the only chemical companies at the time were companies that were supporting the Nazis in Germany, Dow Chemical, DuPont. At least, that’s what he thought. I actually don’t have any facts to that, to back that up. And 7 �consequently, he said, “I can’t work for any of them.” So, he started his own business. JJ: So, he came right out and -- you discussed that? I mean, you brought that out or -- HS: Yeah, he talked about this stuff. JJ: “I can’t support (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).” HS: Well, this was -- I wasn’t born yet. But later on, that’s what he told me. He said he couldn’t work for them. Now, I doubt he could have worked for anyone. (Laughter) I think he liked to work for himself. So, he started his own business. And he made paint [inaudible] and lacquers for adhesive -- I mean, for -- I’m sorry -- for textiles, which I think is -- JJ: Was it a big company? Did it (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: No, it was very small. JJ: Very small? HS: It always was small and made a living. Half the time he was going bankrupt. When they sent me away to school, after I was there for six months, he went bankrupt. [00:13:00] The treasurer was friends with my mom and they gave me a de facto scholarship. They couldn’t pay. The school that I had gone to was -- the high school I went to was -- it was an alternative school sort of, I mean, I guess. The founder was a guy named David Bailey who had married a woman, a white woman from South Africa who was the senior English teacher and the epitome of a witch from my own point of view. (Laughter) But he was very -- by the time I knew him, he was already suffering from cancer. He died about a year after I 8 �graduated, I think a year or two. But he was beloved. He was unique, and he created the school that -- he was like a kid when I knew. [00:14:00] But he created a school that -- I mean, without any accreditation -- that had the ability to get students into virtually any school they wanted to go to, from Harvard on down. It was pretty remarkable. And he had -- it was really the school that, if you were from the East Coast, you were one of the Brahmin class, you know, one of those guys, and your family expectation was that you were going to go to all the best schools and blah, blah, blah, but you’ve been kicked out of every one of the rest of the prep schools that existed, Woodstock was the place you ended up. Or if you were from a progressive family who had been otherwise was blackballed or what have you or had a reputation, you would end up there too. So, when I was at school there, Pete Seeger’s daughter was there, Thorsen Horton -- I mean, Myles Horton’s son Thorsten was there [00:15:00] from Highlander School. Paul Sweezy -- I think it was Sweezy -- who was the editor of Monthly Review -- his son was there. So, there were people that were extremely -- were intellectuals or who were greatly involved in movements of the left at the time that had their children there as well. So, this was this really interesting sort of mix or sort of rebellious -JJ: So, was this the first time that you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: No, no. My parents were involved in leftwing politics their whole lives. But they weren’t -- they’re different than a lot of the people I know who that was the case with. I mean, they didn’t send their kids to any of those camps or -- you know, there were all these different sort of -- they didn’t necessarily participate in that 9 �social life. Although my mother often in the ’30s and ’40s, [00:16:00] went to -- I know this because I’ve seen the results of it. They used to have coffees, like they used to do for the elections (laughs) but among the left. So, they did it mostly for artists. So, they would do it for artists, and what’s how the artist survive. So, I have that print up there, for instance, from Diego Rivera, that’s signed by him -- it’s a print, but it’s signed by him in pencil -- that she bought from him at one of those coffees when he was in New York in the ’30s just trying to survive. So, he would come to New York, and he did murals and stuff. But he would come to New York with his stuff, and he’d go around to different people, and they’d talk about politics. And then, they’d sell their stuff. We have three -JJ: Did your parents organize it, or did they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: No, no, no, no. My father rarely went, I think, because he wasn’t much of a sociable guy. JJ: So they’d paint (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- HS: This was my mother, my mother would just -- yeah. She had at one point -- but I don’t know what happened to it -- a 78 from Paul Robeson, which is how I found out about these things. She said, “Oh, he just came to one of those things I was at. We were both at the same place at the same time.” But I thought this was really interesting because it’s really how they survived. [00:17:00] Alice Neel, who was a remarkable artist who died in 1986, I think, did portraits for a living. And she’d get $200 a portrait. They now sell for 10 times that, if not more. And she -- my mother was looking to give my father a birthday present. In 1958, he had a heart attack. She wanted to give him a present or something. Anyway, 10 �someone suggested -- reminded her that they’d met Alice and she threw these same things, same sort of events. And so, my mother had her do a picture of my dad, and they became really close friends. She had her do one of my mom and one of each of -- my three brothers and I together and then one of my younger brother after he was born. But they became really, really close friends. So, it was -- I don’t know how to describe it. [00:18:00] My dad got kicked out of the Communist Party because he argued with everyone all the time. And I -JJ: So, he was actually a member of the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: He was. And I think that I know he was kicked out now in retrospect because he had this conversation with me -- we had a conversation when I was 17 or 18. I think it was 18. We actually had an argument about what I was doing, and I wasn’t doing enough. This might be two conversations, or it was one that had two parts. But he was really upset with me because I wasn’t doing enough with the war in Vietnam. That was part of the conversation. But the other part of the conversation was about what communism was. And his point of view about that was communism doesn’t exist. The notion that anyone is living in communism is crazy. These people are out of their minds. Communism will only exist because communism is the pure notion that people actually have what they need and can enjoy the life and don’t have to worry about whether they have their needs met. [00:19:00] Then they can realize their full potential. So, you can’t do that unless everyone is practicing socialism. So, it’s about socialism. It’s not about communism. (Laughs) But his point was even then, unless you’re really doing it in a manner that allows for people to be able to have what they need in order to 11 �be able to realize their fullest potential and have that kind of energy and excitement in the world everywhere, everywhere, then you could never reach any ideal of that anywhere. And so, that was very impactful to me. That had a huge impact on just -- on everything because it was contradictory to the way everyone always talked about stuff on the left and all the intellectuals to make everything difficult. And it was something that I really -- that I actually could relate to. JJ: And you were about how old in this conversation? HS: I was 17 or 18. JJ: About 17 or 18. So, you were still in that school or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: No, no, no. It was definitely after. It was definitely [00:20:00] when I was already in college. I went to college when I was 17. But I think it was probably the summer that I was 18. But I’m not really 100 percent sure. JJ: But in the alternative school, you were not exposed to other (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: At Woodstock? Well, yeah, totally Woodstock. I mean, it was a common thing for -- JJ: It was Woodstock? HS: Woodstock Country School in South Woodstock, Vermont. It started out as a cow barn. It’s now a horse barn. It’s all gone. What was I going to tell you? You asked me about -- oh, okay. So, Myles Horton ran the Highlander School, and it was pretty traditional, for at least some of us, every summer, some students every summer, to go for a month, either August or July. And I decided in ’68 that 12 �I was going to go by hook or by crook in August, and I started working on my parents. That’s just what it’s like. [00:21:00] They were very protective of me, (laughter) even though they kept sending me away. They thought they were protecting me. But in -- I think it was -- before the summer even began, the school was burned down by the Klan. So, I never got there. But that whole series of things was very impactful on me. So, I was -- that would have meant that that was -- I’m trying to think if it was before or after Kennedy was killed. I was there when Kennedy was killed. I was there -- my first year there -- I went there for three years -- was during the missile crisis because I remember that. I remember being -- I remember I was up there. I was with students, not with my parents. It was in October, I think, the Cuban Missile Crisis. And so, we -- that ended up being our conversations. And there were [00:22:00] -- I mean, they were extraordinary teachers. They were people that just really believed in education and giving you the -- they believed we (break in audio) so we had these conversations that were pretty remarkable and we were encouraged to have them between ourselves. And the school had a hundred students, but it also had -- well, when I was there, I think there were five of us that were either Jewish or African American. But I think by the time -- when I got there. By the time I left there were five -- I think there were five African American students and five Jewish students. But I can’t actually identify them anymore. So, maybe it was still five and five. But they always -- so, for that time -- this was the ’60s; I graduated in ’65 -- that was pretty extraordinary. And so, it was part of the conversation. I mean, I don’t know what to do. But [00:23:00] there was like any 13 �other high school teenagers -- I mean, they made cruel jokes (laughter) about me because I had this really thick Long Island accent, which I worked really hard to get rid over time because I was so embarrassed by their constant taunts against me. I mean, it was a really elite -- the people who were there came from an elitist environment. And it was -- some of the people there came from an elitist environment, and other people there -JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible) HS: Well, they were from the eastern, north eastern elite, really. They had money. They expected to succeed. At least this was my impression. Although as I think of individuals that I knew, I don’t know that that’s so true. I mean, I had one friend who grew up with the Rockefellers. But he wasn’t a Rockefeller, (laughs) on the other hand. So, I’m not really sure. [00:24:00] And maybe my impression of that and therefore my characterization over the years hasn’t been entirely accurate. But there were people that knew that they had a future across the board. I don’t mean this -- so, forget all of my assumptions or even sort of negative connotations. And these were just kids. But as I’m thinking, I always assumed that their parents were either very progressive or very reactionary, and somehow we all ended up there. But I’m not so sure now because I have no idea. But a couple of my friends, who I was really close to, surprised me when I left. And one of them was the person who grew up with the Rockefellers. The other one was someone from Woodstock, New York, whose parents just turned out to be -- or who himself turned out to be not very progressive. But I don’t 14 �understand -- I don’t actually -- I never actually knew the parents. So, I just made assumptions. JJ: So, they surprised you because you thought they were progressive? HS: No, I’m just thinking now. It’s surprising me now because I’m not [00:25:00] really -- yeah, the two? Well, when I was 17 or 18 or 19 or even 20 and knew all these -- I mean, when you’re in high school -- when I was in high school, my friends were -- there were only a hundred of us. You had your friends. Everyone was an acquaintance. But if you had a friend, that was a real friend, you’d expect that they stick you with you forever and ever. And so, three, four, five years later, as we grew and led our lives and became whoever we began the journey of becoming whoever we were going to become and we’d talk to each other, I never in my wildest imaginations had ever thought that if you disagreed with what someone was doing, you’d never talk to them again. But two of them disowned me when I decided to go to Cuba. It’s like, “Oh, you’re kidding, right?” (Laughter) And especially because the reason I went, I thought, was really appropriate. There had been -- I’m jumping ahead a minute. But there had been [00:26:00] a trip to Cuba in 1968, early ’68, that five members of the Black Panther Party had taken. And two of them had come from one coast and three of them had come from the other. I don’t know which. And they had gone through Mexico. But when they go to Mexico City, they were kidnapped by some American intelligence agency and sent back to the opposite coast from which they came. So, SDS decided they were going to challenge that, and they decided that they were going to have a trip of 30 students, which ended up being 29 white students 15 �and one Puerto Rican, college students. So, we -- people applied, blah, blah, blah. JJ: What college was this? HS: Pardon? JJ: What college? HS: It was from all over the country. So, everyone from all over the country applied. [00:27:00] JJ: And you were a member of SDS? HS: Actually, no, at that point, in Madison, SDS and -- JJ: You were in Madison. HS: I was in Madison, and we had created -- friends of mine actually had formed the Draft Resistance Union. And there was tension between SDS and the Draft Resistance Union. But SDS -- we built the -- I mean, I came back and spoke for SDS when I ended up on the trip. But I didn’t -- so, it was a fraternal relationship though with the Draft Resistance Union. So, it was friends of mine who recommended that they send me. At that point, I wasn’t really -- I was never one for being that -- I wasn’t into organizational structures. I wasn’t into doing organizational work. I was into being there. So, when we had the first civil disobedience in Madison, I was there. I was one of the people that voted to do it, to sit down as opposed to picket. When the Black students went on strike, I was one of the students who went in teams into classrooms to explain the strike [00:28:00] to other students. But I didn’t sit back and organize stuff. I just did 16 �stuff. Do you know what I mean? I mean, sometimes I did because you had to. But what wasn’t my thing. JJ: But tell me about the trip, and I’ll come back to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: So, we -- the trip to Cuba? JJ: Yeah. HS: So, they ended up picking 30 students from around the country. There’s a lot of back stories, but I’m not going to go into them. I mean, I could, but this is going - this is not going to be an hour conversation. (Laughter) We’re nowhere near Chicago. So, we can have those -- you can go back if you want. But anyway, we ended up being in Cuba for about eight or nine weeks. It was quite remarkable. It was August of 1968. JJ: What did you do there? HS: We did everything there, I mean, literally. We went all over the country. We talked to people everywhere. We had our tourism. [00:29:00] We went through factories, and they showed us all the development stuff they were doing in every field, I mean, from art to construction. We saw the movies that were being made. We went to different theaters. We literally probably -- we went all over the whole island. I mean, it’s not that big an island, and we were literally there for eight weeks, I think, at least eight weeks because we didn’t come back until October, and we went in the beginning of August. So, it was -- and we did go to (laughs) -we did go to one speech in Havana in the big square, which is either called Revolution Square or Independence Square -- I can’t remember. And Fidel spoke, and he spoke, and he spoke, and he spoke, and he spoke. (Laughter) 17 �Fortunately -- my Spanish isn’t great. But Yvette, who was the only nonwhite [00:30:00] student on the tour, and I became really good friends. And I picked up immediately that her problem was that everybody expected her to translate for them. So, I never asked her to translate for me. So, I had to figure out what people were saying. So, occasionally, she would tell me of her own volition. But it was the only time I get even close to being fluent in Spanish, which of course I thereby immediately lost by not using it when I came back. So, I did understand about 50 percent of what he was saying. JJ: But what was the atmosphere? HS: It was unbelievable. I mean, it was extraordinary. The whole place was full. It was the first time I saw -- I mean, people were engaged back and forth. It was the first time -- I mean, we saw more of that later on during Harold’s election. We saw a little of that -- it was reflective of some -- I mean, I saw it on TV; I wasn’t there -- at the March on Washington, the civil rights march a few years earlier. That was, I guess, four years earlier. [00:31:00] But it was -- yeah, it was very dynamic to me at that point. I don’t know before or after or whatever. This was pre Venceremos Brigade. The Venceremos Brigade came out of that visit. So, anyway -- JJ: And the Venceremos Brigade was -- HS: The Venceremos Brigade was organized the following year. And it was students going to apply to go and work for a month or so in the cane fields in Cuba because cane was their primary economic engine. 18 �JJ: Okay. So now, you came back. You’re in Madison. And now you’re working with the draft resistors (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: The draft resistors were actually my friends. It was formed in ’67. And they were doing their thing. And then, SDS -- I came back -- I was a senior -- I came back and I did some speeches and [00:32:00] stuff for SDS. It was that same year was the year the Black student strike. But the prior year, the summer that I went to Cuba, there were a group of students from -- this was the Draft Resistance Union that organized this. And they organized teams to go to different communities all over Wisconsin. And then, during the -- maybe they started that in ’67. But they were definitely doing it by ’68 over the summer. And then, sometime during that year or at the end of that summer, there were people who -it must have been after that because Dan Sweeney was one of them, and he was there in ’68 -- decided that they were going to go to -- by mid ’69, these communities existed. They decided they were going to go to three different communities and start doing organizing work. So, one was Milwaukee. One was Waukegan, Illinois. And the other was Racine, Wisconsin. So, there were [00:33:00] two people in Racine, and then [Mark Zukin?] joined them. And then, he recruited me later at the end of the year to go there after I recruited him to run around and take people to hospital during miscellaneous activities. JJ: So, you recruited each other? HS: Yeah, he did more recruiting than I did. (Laughter) And that’s what he was very good at. And so, there were people in Racine, and there were people in 19 �Milwaukee, and there were people -- by ’69, when I left Madison, there were people in Racine, Waukegan or north Chicago, and Milwaukee. JJ: You never went back to New York (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: No, no. My plan was actually to go to Sweden and weave. (Laughs) JJ: And weave? HS: Weave. I was a weaver. I use to weave literally. I had a loom. I had a huge loom. I had to get an apartment as a student off campus to house my loom. (Laughs) [00:34:00] This is true. I used to weave things. Susan Rosenbloom still has something I wove. JJ: Has a what? HS: She’s the only person. Susan Rosenbloom still has something I wove. JJ: Oh, really? HS: Yeah. It’s the only thing I wove that still exists. Anyway, I went -- no, so, I ended up -- I chose instead -- then I thought for a minute maybe I should go to Mexico and do weaving. And then, I said, “Oh, come on, this is a joke.” I went to Racine. (Laughs) So, we went to Racine. Mark recruited me, and Steve Gold, who also was at Madison, graduating when I did. JJ: Steve Cole? HS: Gold, not Cole. Steve Gold. Steve Cole went to Milwaukee. JJ: So, you knew him then? HS: Yes. And we recruited him from Milwaukee to come -- JJ: You say “we,” it’s still the draft -- HS: Well, okay -- so, no, no, no, no, no. They’re -- I’m not -- 20 �JJ: Okay, you move on. HS: When I saw “we” at this point, it’s the three of us. It’s me and Steve Gold and Mark -- go to Racine. [00:35:00] And we -- I’m actually not sure when Steve went. He might have come at the end of the summer. I don’t remember him at the beginning of the summer. But we went there and the idea was (inaudible) take these guys (inaudible) [have to work or nothing?] because it was really influenced by Dan Sweeney who still -- the means of production. Now, he’s created a whole school actually today in Chicago that deals with making sure that people are educated to be able to continue to work in manufacturing by having a proper education deal with new technologies. But anyway, this was back then. So, the idea was everybody was supposed to get a factory job. So, we go get factory jobs which lasts maybe three months before we’re all blacklisted. But while it lasted, Mark and I had two different -- we were on two opposite shifts, so we never saw each other. But [00:36:00] I discovered that the way he got through his shifts was literally drinking a pint of gin every day. So, by the end of the summer, I started kind of worrying about him because clearly it was having an impact on his health. And in retrospect, what I learned -- what I know now or I knew several -- 10, 15 years later, which we didn’t know then was that he was working in a foundry where the temperatures were 100, 150 degrees, lifting 100 pound pieces of car parts, doing piecework with someone else who became good friends of ours, Nate, who was bigger and stronger than Mark (laughs) and sort of carried him along. But I am sure that was the trigger for his MS. JJ: Oh, his MS? 21 �HS: I am sure. Yeah, it’s how he died. He died in ’98, and I’m sure that was the trigger. About a year after that, he had -- the first time he collapsed -- and [00:37:00] you know, I didn’t -- it didn’t make any sense when you thought about it later because he never had pain. He would just collapse and he could not move. His back would go out. And that happened twice -- once or twice in Racine. One time I remembered -- I’m sure it was twice, but I can only remember one time. But it was horrible. I mean, I had to call a friend of ours, who was big, to come pick him up because he collapsed on our porch stairs midway outside. So, that was a year and a half after that -- or maybe not even that much. Anyway, the point is we were in the factories at the end of the summer. And we’re like, “This is crazy. You’re drinking every day. We never see each other. We’re not doing any work. I mean, we’re working. We don’t have time to even think of doing any organizing. And this is what we really want to do. And shouldn’t we really be finding the young people?” So, we decided that we wanted to talk to young people [00:38:00] and start working in the high schools. And two people that we were there with, Suzie and Jodie, said, “Oh, no.” Whatever, whatever. So, they decided to move to Detroit and work with workers, and we stayed there. And I think that’s when Steve came, Gold, not Cole. So, we’re doing our thing. We go in -- we do stuff that I think today we’d be arrested for -- but which was -- we would -- I mean, I don’t think you could do it today. We took a group -- we started hanging around the high schools and talking to students and talking about who knows what. And I actually have some -- I do have some of our old -- I think I have some of our literature from Racine. 22 �JJ: (inaudible) HS: So, we took a car full of students who walked out of school, got in our car, and drove with us to Chicago to hear Fred Hampton speak outside the Chicago 7 Trial in September, [00:39:00] that one that we -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) HS: Yeah. I’m sure I saw you there, just didn’t know it. So, we did that a few times without anyone’s permission or anything, which is why I think it was probably -whatever. But we were organizing among students. We had a little student newspaper. JJ: These are students from (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: High school, public school in Racine. JJ: In Racine? HS: It was mostly, I think, probably about the war and about -- and we were selling Black Panther papers too. JJ: Because we were organizing with the Panther people here to come -- HS: Here, yeah. JJ: -- to the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Yeah, I’m sure we did. (Laughs) So, we sold Black Panther papers. So, Mark and I sort of gravitated towards doing more of that stuff and less of being in the factories. JJ: Now, is this part of the survival committee? Was it all -- HS: Not yet, not yet. So, the summer [00:40:00] that I moved to Racine, the Black Panther Party had in California, National Conference to Combat Fascism, the 23 �first one. The ISCs came out of that. And that was in July, I think. And Mark and I had had a huge fight, and some of my best friends from college were living in San Francisco, my roommates. And I said, “Well, screw all of you guys. I’m going to California for a couple weeks.” (Laughs) So -- no, this wasn’t ’68. This was -- I’m sorry (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I was actually wrong. No, it wasn’t. JJ: It was before then? HS: Oh, wait a minute. Now I’m confusing two different events. But I know I went out there when I was pregnant. JJ: Well, it could have been ’68 (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: There was something in ’68, and I went out there. But then, I went -- JJ: And we went (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Yeah. But when I went out there, it was ’70. The second time I went out there, it was ’70. So, I went there again in ’70. But ’68 was the first one. And I remember -- and we had had an argument or something. [00:41:00] And I said, “I’m just -- I’ve got to get away, and I want to go to this conference. So, I’m going to California.” But the second time was -- I know I was just a few months pregnant with Brandon. Maybe it wasn’t the summer. It might have been the fall. But I went out there again. I know there was stuff that I did both times. But in -this was ’68. And then, when we came back, we hooked up with -- there was a chapter of the Black Panther Party in Rockford when I -- because I went alone. When I came back, there was a chapter of the Black Panther Party in Rockford, and there was a something -- branch -- they didn’t call it chapters; t wasn’t quite a 24 �chapter -- let’s for the sake of the conversation call them branches, but I think they had another name -- in Milwaukee. Loretta X was in Milwaukee and Harold Bell and Ray Lewis were in Rockford. And we hooked up with the folks at Milwaukee first because it felt -- they actually -- I’m not sure if they were closer or not, but it felt closer since they were in the same state. I think they might have been closer actually. And we used to go back and forth. [00:42:00] We did -- we just did literature. I don’t know why it sort of came to us, both Mark and I, naturally. And him, the writing, me the laying out. And so, we would do stuff with them, and then, we would do our own stuff and bring it up there and print or something. I think they had the equipment to print and we were able to do layout. And so, we went back and forth. They had a mimeograph. But we were back and forth to Milwaukee all the time and we’d get our papers from them. So, we went up there once a week. And then -JJ: And you weren’t working with SDS. You were working more with the Panthers? HS: In ’68, when I left -- ’69 -- it was ’69 that I went out there because ’69 was when I graduated. In ’69 when I left -- so, ’69 when the National Congress to Combat Fascism was. And then, the next -- yeah, so, I went up ’69 and ’70. In ’69, then I [00:43:00] left -- when I’d first come to Racine -- when I’d graduated and first come to Racine, there was a big SDS conference in Chicago. And that was when there was the split between the Weathermen and the Revolutionary Youth Movement. And I remember that because the folks -- I told Mark, “I feel like we’re just going from one bar mitzvah to another.” Especially -- we went to Lincoln Avenue to the old -- oh, what was that film place called? No, Newsweb -- 25 �no, it wasn’t Newsweb. Anyway, we went place on the second floor on Lincoln Avenue. And there was a -JJ: [Newsroom?]? HS: Yes. And we were invited to some party they were having. And it turned out it was a Weathermen Party. And [Mark Rudd?] was there from Columbia. And he was greeting everybody like just what you do at bar mitzvah. I literally -- when I left I said, “I just feel like I just left a bar mitzvah. So, between him and Travis -what was his name -- and a number of other people, we were really being courted, individually [00:44:00] and collectively. And meanwhile, there was [SLM?] and then on the other side who were sort of talking about the stuff -- JJ: [Walter Collin?]? HS: Yes, Walter Collin -- who were talking about the things that we really -- talking about survival programs and other stuff. So, we were organizing (break in audio). So, we ended up hooking up with the Revolutionary Youth Movement folks, RYM II, as I recall it was called. So, we had -- we did -- JJ: So, the Weathermen Underground was RYM I? HS: No. I don’t know what the -- no, I don’t know what RYM I was. I just remember (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) this was called RYM II. And I can’t remember why. I think it was sort of a second generation. It wasn’t in conflict with RYM I. I think the Revolutionary Youth Movement was something everybody talked about. And then, there was the split. Not really sure. I have some of the stuff. I mean, I could probably figure it out if I went back and read some of the stuff I have. I do have some of these old things. [00:45:00] 26 �JJ: You were RYM II (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: But we were Racine, and we did -- I know we did different things at different times. But basically what we were doing there was -- Mark was organizing the lawyers to do a legal clinic. There were -- the lawyers were all either Jewish -- for the most part, at least the ones we knew were either Jewish or Italian. And we got along just fine with (inaudible) them all and got them all to agree to do something pro bono. And I started hanging out with folks doing welfare defense and decided that we should -- and got into it with them and started talking about, “Well, let’s do some advocacy. Let’s do some welfare defense. Let’s look at it as a defense, not just as advocacy. Let’s look at it as a way to help people understand their rights so they can get what they need.” So, we started doing that more. Because -- and the hardcore folks were really just doing agitation, [00:46:00] which was very helpful. But then, let’s get something for it. So, we were doing that. And later on, when we came to Chicago, it became really models for other stuff we did here. But that’s pretty much what we were doing there except things would come up. So, for instance, I discovered that the way they were dealing with the outbreak of rubella among pregnant women was the public -- Department of Public Health in Racine decided, in their wisdom, that the best way to deal with this would be to inoculate -- require that all women who were pregnant get inoculated for German measles. (Laughs) So, let’s give them the measles in order to prevent them from having it. It was insane. And so, we couldn’t -- we told them, “You’re crazy,” and we tried to bring them some medical evidence and they wouldn’t change. So, we picketed for about week downtown 27 �Racine, which I don’t think they’d ever seen before. And after we did that, they actually changed the policy. [00:47:00] They also passed a law that said that more than two people on the street in downtown -- on Main Street in downtown Racine was loitering. And one day -- we had a book store. We started a book store to theoretically survive. It was a joke. But it was a very progressive book store, great books. And it was Steve and Mark and I were the owners of the book store. And we were standing outside the store one day talking because it was really hot. And we got arrested for loitering. And by the time -- I was like, “You’re kidding, right?” But I was really happy because we were really broke, and we hadn’t eaten all day. And we got to have bologna sandwiches, and I got a nap, which I rarely do. And we got out and they had to change the law because they realized they couldn’t prosecute us (laughs) for being in front of our own store. But they passed that law after we did the demonstrations. So, we did stuff like that. And Mark led -- I remember doing one march he organized that was really based on stuff they were doing [00:48:00] here. It was (inaudible) and big and it was -- it expressed his conflicting -JJ: Based on stuff that who was doing? The (inaudible)? HS: People both -- everybody was doing, everyone. Because in the fall, there was -the Days of Rage came out of a demonstration that was organized around the event. I don’t remember if that was what the event was. Do you? JJ: They were (inaudible) the year before the (inaudible) beaten up in the park and they wanted to show that -- the (inaudible) underground. HS: No, but there was something that both the Weather Underground and -- 28 �JJ: Well, we did (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: -- SDS across the -- no, I remember that, and I went on that march. I remember that march. And we went on that. JJ: So, you were with us on (inaudible)? HS: Yes, I remember that. But there was -- or maybe that’s what I’m thinking of. But I think that there was another march that SDS was doing. [00:49:00] It was an SDS march, but the Weathermen went off and broke a bunch of windows and things. And everybody got blamed for it. JJ: I believe that was at that same time. HS: Okay. JJ: Because we went downtown and -- HS: Yeah, yeah. JJ: -- we marched to Humboldt Park. HS: Okay. And I was -- yeah. So, back in Racine, at some point -- I don’t know if it was related to that or not because we were there actually. I don’t know if it was related to that or not. But there was a march that Mark organized, which I always felt was -- expressed his -- he was torn between the two because he had friends in both. He was just torn between the two because he was so frustrated and angry. He wanted to do stuff, and that’s really where a lot of the Weathermen stuff came from that we knew. But it also came from a sense that -- when is the point where you think you can’t have an impact? Because that was it as well. JJ: What do you mean? [00:50:00] HS: Well, I think that if you better -- 29 �JJ: Because that was the discussion at that time. HS: Yeah, that was -- well, I mean, I think the better example of it really is South Africa. But at some point, you take action. You know, there was a whole discussion because there was what was going on in Ireland, what was going on in South Africa, and then people relating it back here. And some people interpreting the fact that there was no legal recourse. And we hadn’t gone as far as they had gone in terms of legal recourse. But sort of jumping from A to Z instead of going through all the steps. And in the process of going through all the steps, I think it became apparent to some -- I mean, some of us felt that going through those steps meant that you weren’t getting -- didn’t jump ahead, that that was really -- that had to be -- circumstances had to be ripe to be able to do stuff that took on a violent aura to it. It really had to be necessary. It really had to be necessary. [00:51:00] It was really a question of necessity. And was it really necessary yet? And that was the debate, I think, that we were all having. And people made different choices. But for students, it was -- I don’t think we had -honestly, I don’t think we had enough life experience. The energy that we had -- I mean, I think about this all the time, and I’ve often thought about it as an alderman, thinking about what other people were doing and saying, in the end, it’s about where is the material impact. I mean, in my eyes for today, in the end, it’s about the material impact. And are the actions you’re taking going to have a better material impact on people’s lives or a worse material impact on people’s lives? What is the best path to actually have the best outcome? Not in the short or long term, but overall, in the real world. I mean, obviously, sometimes in life 30 �and in history, people have had to -- people have been heroes. I mean, the word -- hero is attached -- the notion of a hero is attached to someone who does what has to be done in order for [00:52:00] other people to have things better. So, yeah, that’s right. But you still have to -- you still have to do your best to make sure that it has the best outcome materially. In other words, in terms of people’s lives, in terms of their ability to grow and develop and realize their most potentially -JJ: In terms of people’s lives? HS: I think. So, it’s -- for me, it’s an ongoing conundrum. I think that the energy of youth is irreplaceable and irrepressible in a very good way. On the other hand, I think -- that doesn’t mean that they always know what’s right, that you always know when you’re that young what’s right because you don’t necessarily have the life experiences necessary or the time to have reflected on what that life experience really means. And the whole point is you’re in a process of growth and development and you’re -- being in the middle of the boiling pot is probably great from the long term [00:53:00] perspective because it’s going to give you so much to be able to figure that out and be more impactful later. But in the process, you’re being impactful and hopefully -- and you’re making choices. And so, what does it take for us to give our youth the foundation they need to make the best choices possible and the ones that will lead us in the most humane direction. JJ: So, what made you decide to move to Chicago as a group? Why’d you move? 31 �HS: Well, we were in Racine for three years. I was in Racine for three years. And personally -- and we were doing a lot of stuff. We had a huge clothing program and food giveaway program. We took very seriously building the lifeline for survival. That was really a concept of the Black Panther Party pending revolution. JJ: So, it was connected -- HS: We really did think there was going to be a revolution. JJ: You were connected with the Black Panther Party at the time? HS: All the time we were in Racine, yeah. Okay, wait. I forgot the most important thing. So, we’re in 1969. I’ve left. I’ve gone out to California. I’m back. Mark and I decide we’re going to leave the factory. We start organizing with students. We come to Chicago. We meet Fred Hampton. I mean, I must -- JJ: Where did you meet Fred Hampton? HS: We must have hooked up with [Slim?] at some point because I remember going over to the west side office with him. JJ: Okay. HS: It was me and Mark and I -- and he was -- JJ: And your impression for him? HS: Well, Fred was just -- oh, I also saw him at a speech in Racine -- I mean, in Madison when I was still at school there actually. He came out there to speak. Fred was just incredibly dynamic and very clear. He was well spoken and cursed a lot, but he really made sense. And he had -- I think -- the only thing I can tell you -- it sounds kind of corny, but his humanity just shone through [00:55:00] in a 32 �way that you rarely experience. You knew he was for real. You knew that he was sincere about what he was talking about, and he had a vision. He saw things pretty clearly in a way that was very attractive. That’s what my impression was. JJ: What was attractive? HS: Well, his clarity and his sense of humanity. You actually thought this could be a better world and you could do something about helping being a part of that. That’s how he made you feel. JJ: So, you saw -- you didn’t see it as a Black nationalist type of philosophy? HS: No. JJ: How did you see that? HS: I -- JJ: And I’m putting words (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: No, no, no, I understand. I was -- the first time I saw Fred I was a student. And he spoke at an assembly hall. It was across the street from where we did our first sit in. Shortly after that, maybe a year after that. [00:56:00] And at that point, I had -- there was a lot of -- there was -- it was a campus. So, it was students. They were mostly middle class. So, it’s not comparable to the real world. But in the context of the campus, there was a lot of repression that people who had organized -- a lot of pressure came down on people who had been organizers (inaudible) some of whom were really good friends of mine. And I had seen them really break or were breaking under that. And -- JJ: Pressure from whom? 33 �HS: The administration of the school. And we were struggling. It was obviously. This was -- I think he -- I don’t remember if he spoke the year [00:57:00] of the Black student strikes. But the Black students were organizing most of the time that I was there, at least the last couple years. And their demands were not unreasonable. They were demanding things I wanted to know about. I was a history major. I wanted to know about history. One of the first books that I actually read as a kid, chapter books, as they called -- was Freedom Road by Howard Fast. And it’s about Reconstruction and the carpetbaggers and the whole deconstruction of Reconstruction (laughs) basically in the South. And so, I wanted that history. I thought we should all know that. I thought that the lack of even history that we have, that we don’t learn the same things -- we don’t learn the history of all of us, and we don’t all learn it makes it really hard for people to understand and live together and be able to [00:58:00] respect each other. So, for me, all of that was just part of the real world. I guess the other story that I didn’t tell you is that my dad always talked about fascism. He always talked about how you have to fight it, no matter what. He said, “I don’t care what you do with your life.” Well, he did. But I mean, in the end. He said, “I do care what you do. Just don’t ever get arrested.” But he said, “I don’t care about a lot of things. But I want you to be able to recognize fascism when you see it and do something about it.” That was so important to him. And I just attributed it to his own history. But it was really embedded in everything from the day I was born. I mean, it was just -- it took me a while to understand that fascism is more than Nazism and to begin to see how it related to racism [00:59:00] and other things. But I was very 34 �aware of that by different things that happened, both in terms of things that my parents did that I thought were racist and/or just -- or were objectively expressing the racism of the society, the inequalities between people and the attitudes that people have about each other. So, all of that was part of what I brought -- more with questions and answers, but what I brought to those years of my life. And so, when Fred Hampton was coming, I was really excited. And I took what he said -you know, I never -- I always -- you know, people yell and they argue and they say stuff. But the real issue is what are they saying. And I was prepared to hear what everybody was saying. And so, he was very respectful. He was a respectful person who was also demanding respect, and I appreciated that. I can relate to that. [01:00:00] JJ: And you were also -- I mean, you had a group that was working directly with the Panthers. HS: Later. This was -- JJ: But this was later. HS: The first time I saw him was when I was in college. When I came to -- that was in ’68 I think, around them. It couldn’t have been ’67 because he was -- I think he came -- he started the party in ’68. So, it was ’68 or ’69. It might have been ’69 because the Black student strike was in ’69. It was January ’69, January or February, at least my calendar -- my internal calendar says so. When I came to Chicago, obviously it would have been in ’69 too. I saw him that one time at the rally when we brought the students. I was here and Slim gave us -- with Mark -- 35 �and Slim gave us a tour. We were doing something with him. And he probably started recruiting us in ’69. I’m sure. He was already trying to recruit us. JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible) come to Chicago or were brought here or -[01:01:00] from different -- HS: Branches of? JJ: I mean, of the (inaudible) coming in? HS: Oh, yeah. Well, in 1972 -- JJ: Oh, it was ’72. HS: In 1972, I moved to Chicago in January. I came here just with Brandon, my son. He was 15 months old. And we stayed with Linda Turner. And I worked on the clothing program. We were doing a clothing program. And then immediately switched over to beginning to work on the rally we were going to have in October, which was a rally to end police brutality and establish community control. And we were doing that at the Aragon in uptown. And we were going to and did serve -give our 3,000 bags of groceries. And Bobby Rush, who was then the minister of defense of the Chicago chapter of the Black Panther Party, was going to speak [01:02:00] and did speak. And we were going door to door. So, starting in maybe August or September -- it must have been August -- we started going door to door in uptown. Well, maybe we did that for the clothing (inaudible) maybe we had already started. I came here -- it was the end of December though. And so, for that event, Slim recruited the rest of -- recruited everyone who was in Racine and everyone who was in St. Louis to come here and to work on that. And of those folks, ultimately everybody ended up coming here. A few people from 36 �Racine didn’t come until January, but they came down to help us -- or some of them came down to help us. But some of them stayed. Some of those folks stayed after October. But by January, everybody was here. That was really the catalyst (inaudible). And then, the next -JJ: By January of ’73 or ’72? HS: Oh, January of ’73, yeah. [01:03:00] October of ’73 was the big event. And then, in ’73, we started working with the Black Panter Party here on the conference at U of I, conference on police brutality and establishing community control. Fannie Lou Hamer came and spoke and a few other people. So, that’s all I did for the next six months (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) yeah. And then, in January of ’74, we started working on their campaign. And the first thing I did was the -- I worked with [Angie Lynn?] on the press stuff and then I did all your literature. JJ: Angie Lynn from the Young Lords? HS: Yes. So, in January -- and I have these original -- as well as -- I have the original -- in some cases, layouts -- but the layouts, I think, are mostly (inaudible). I have the [01:04:00] original press release that we did, which of course was done on a typewriter. Remember there was -- someone was being evicted on Wilton Street and that was the first thing we did. Anyway, I think that’s what it was. But I actually have it in my box over there. It’s one of the things I want to give you. And almost immediately, shortly thereafter, you had the announcement that you were running. And I almost immediately then for the next year spent 22 hours a day doing literature, either following you around to take pictures, calling the press, working (inaudible) on the media, or putting together your literature, which 37 �is how I learned how to do typesetting and everything. I mean, I used to -- it was how I learned to do a print shop, which we later started, because I’d get the copy from Slim or you or through [01:05:00] Slim from you or whatever. I would then copy fit it to figure out -- no, I would then go by -- I’d learn what it was that we were trying to do. Then I’d go to the paper place and see what ends they had and how much paper I could get for the -- based on how many I needed that would be appropriate to fit that. And usually they were odd, shaped things that they cut oddly. So, I’d get these weird, shaped pieces of paper that would be appropriate for whatever the purpose was. And then, I would copy fit to that size. (Laughs) And then, I would go to the typesetter, who would then type out -- I don’t know how they did it. It was like they typed in one line at a time. But then, you’d get the copy back and you’d have to fit it, and then, you’d have to figure out the mistakes and go back and either fixed or can they give you lines. So, I had to fit everything in. And anyway, this literally took me [01:06:00] -- and then, I would take it to someone else to have a negative shot and then to somebody else to have the plate made and then someone else to have it printed and then someone else to have it cut or bound. And so, in the -- I mean, literally. And most of the time I was asking people to do it for nothing. One of the things that I found here is your campaign disclosure statements that we submitted. And we didn’t spend any money. And that was me. Really didn’t. I got people to do stuff. I mean, in those days you didn’t have to report the stuff you got for nothing, the (break in audio) oh my gosh. I was just like -- everybody was just -- that’s what I did. But the side effect of that was I learned every aspect of doing printing, which is how 38 �we ended up starting a printing company. And that led us to be able to do fliers later. JJ: You said you did some work with Angie Lynn? HS: Yeah, we did the media stuff. JJ: A lot of work or -- HS: Media stuff, yeah. JJ: So, what do you -- HS: We spent a lot of time that year -- JJ: -- remember about Angie? HS: Oh, Angie was great. Well, she was just very smart. She got along -- she was really good with people. And she [01:07:00] could get the media folks to do almost anything. She got them out there. And we -- it was pretty remarkable actually what we did that year, what you did that year, because -- the whole campaign, because you had a significant showing. And I think -- I looked at the figures -- we spent under 10 grand. I mean, that’s just ridiculous. I don’t even think you spent that much. We just did -- it was just a lot of people just working their butts off and really talking to people. It was pretty remarkable actually, the whole thing.= JJ: And during this time, you were still working with the Panthers (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: Well, this was the -- we were the intercommunal survival committee, which we’ve sort of jumped ahead to -- JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 39 �HS: -- the ’70 -- okay. So, when I came to Chicago -- JJ: Just trying to (inaudible) connection. Just trying to -- HS: I know. JJ: -- show that there was a connection. HS: When I came to Chicago in ’72, I came to work with what had been -- [01:08:00] people who had that people’s -- what was that? I just lost the name. Information center -- it was the People’s Information Center. And that was Slim and Kathy, Roy O’Dell. We then -- JJ: Because that started in Lincoln Park. HS: Yes. JJ: The People’s Information Center. HS: That’s right. And during the course of time, short time or even maybe at that time, it became (inaudible) they established a relationship with the Black Panther Party to become an Intercommunal Survival Committee, otherwise known as ISC. And that’s pretty much what we were until -- pretty much what we were for a long time. We started to create community institutions in the ’70s. So, there was the People’s Community Service Center and the [01:09:00] Uptown People’s Community Learning Center and the Uptown People’s Law Center and the Chicago Area Black Lung Association and then ultimately the Heart of Uptown Coalition which was a really huge mass organization. But these were all organizations that did very specific concrete things, that dealt with people’s survival every day. But the people who put the time into doing it were people who were members of the Intercommunal Survival Committee. That’s sort of the 40 �tie for all this. And we had a relationship with the Black Panther Party, which -we sold their papers. But we also did things. Our goal was always to create an intercommunal society, to create the opportunity for this to be really basically a place where everybody could realize their fullest potential. And to do that, we had to deal with these issues that we have in our real world. JJ: So, an intercommunal survival society said [01:10:00] everybody was able to meet their potential? HS: In my view. (Laughs) JJ: But I mean, this is what -- this was the goal. HS: Well, yeah. The template for the Black Panther Party, I think, laid it all out pretty well and I think, from my perspective, reflected for us as well the -- what was true there would be true for everyone. JJ: Now, who would you be working with? Because at that time there was no Panther folks after Fred Hampton. HS: No, there was. JJ: There was? HS: Bobby Rush became the chairman of the Black Panther Party in Illinois. JJ: After Fred? HS: Yeah, yeah. And was until -- I mean, the party had a life on and off. Bobby got into politics in ’73, I think, or so. But he was in and out. I know he ran for -- JJ: So, he ran for office in -- HS: -- something in ’73. JJ: -- what? In ’73? 41 �HS: The first time he ran for state rep he didn’t win. [01:11:00] JJ: Oh, so, when I was -- HS: It was ’73. JJ: -- running he was also running? HS: Well, that was ’75. So, by then, he -- I mean, I remember we had -- he was still in the party. I remember -- JJ: So, he was running before that. HS: I remember Tom Lindsay who used to do a lot of layout with me, did a mock front page of one of the major city papers, I think one that doesn’t exist anymore, maybe Sun-Times -- I don’t know -- of headlines of Bobby Rush winning for mayor in 1975. So, this was in ’72 or ’73. We were just playing around one day. It was interesting. Something historic, actually when you think about it. I might not have been Bobby. But we never expected a Black man in those days though, right? So, the party really pretty much existed in Chicago, although not in any way, shape, or form in the same level because the health center. I don’t know when the health center closed. [01:12:00] When -- I never finished telling you the most important thing. So, we’re back to ’69. So, it’s Thanksgiving of 1969, and Mark and I are going east to visit our families, his father in New Jersey and my parents in Long Island. And I remember he had a huge fight (laughs) so we ended up disappearing and going our own ways and then coming back on the -came back on the same plane. We were flying back to Milwaukee because everybody was reevaluating -- no, actually, this is what happened. Everybody came to Milwaukee in October for -- I mean, in November -- sometime in 42 �November, for a conference. We were -- the people that were doing this external work who had left Madison and were in one of these three communities and trying to figure out what to do or wanted to go to one of them. So, we had a meeting. And [01:13:00] it was a conference. And it was -- we just -- it was obnoxious. So, we said, “We’re leaving, and we’re going home for Thanksgiving. We’ll be back.” (Laughs) We get back on the evening of December 3rd. And we’ve had this huge blow out. We’re not talking to each other. We go to sleep. We're woken up a six o’clock in the morning. Someone tells us Fred Hampton’s been killed. So, Steve is there, Steve Gold. I think that’s when Steve came. Steve wasn’t in Racine until then. He was there as part of the people that come to the conference. So, Mark and I look at each other and we say, “Well, we have to go back.” Suzie and Jody have already said they’re not going to return. And we said, “Now, we have to work together. We don’t care. We’re not going to live together. We don’t like each other. We don’t care. We’re going to go back. And who wants to come with us?” And Steve said he didn’t. And we’re going to go. We’re going to work under Black leadership. And we’re going to be serious about what we do [01:14:00] because we can’t just walk away from this. And so, we went back to Racine. We were like (inaudible) we hook up with this guy who turns out to be an FBI provocateur, which we don’t find out for six months, which is why then our relationship directly -- because we were going to do that on our own. After that, we hook up more directly with people in Milwaukee and people in Rockford. But that’s how we made those connections because we realize we’d really blown it. And we went to -- we knew the people in Milwaukee. But 43 �we went to Slim and asked him -- when we figured out what was going on, which was at least five or six months later. And he put us in touch with the Rockford folks. So, that’s how he hooked up with them, with all those people. JJ: With the Rockford Panthers? HS: And with Milwaukee. Oh, Milwaukee, we did on our own because we met them during that time. We went to whatever memorials and met people there. JJ: So, that was in ’69 you were with the Rockford Panthers? HS: Yeah, yeah. And then, we went to -- well, after Fred was killed. JJ: And Rockford was a branch of Chicago (inaudible)? HS: Rockford was a branch [01:15:00] of -- JJ: Of (inaudible). HS: Yeah, yeah. And Harold Bell, who was the head of the Rockford chapter, was in the -- and Mark Clock was from the Rockford chapter. JJ: (inaudible) HS: And he and Harold Bell were in the apartment when Fred was killed as was Doc Satchel. And Doc Satchel was -- Ron “Doc” Satchel. Ron was his name. Who was the member of the -- very young member of the Black Panther Party who had ran the free clinic that they had on the west side. And it was a pretty extraordinary place. And they recruited all these doctors and were doing great work. And Doc was his nickname, obviously. Doc was also in that apartment and was one of the people that received quite -- he was shot up pretty badly, never -- I don’t think -- [01:16:00] completely healed. I mean, he was really messed up physically, and obviously that affects your life. I remember -- I got 44 �there because I was trying to remember when the clinic shut down after Fred was killed. And I think it survived for a while. So, he was killed, but the programs continued on some level over a period of time. JJ: Okay, so, now you’re -- we have the (inaudible) campaign (inaudible). HS: Before we get -- maybe it was afterwards. I’m sorry. That was later. JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: So, we did the (inaudible) campaign, your campaign. The next year I actually spent -- ’75 -- what did we do in ’75? We stayed in uptown. I’m trying to think of what -- I don’t know. So, the ’70s are [01:17:00] -- there’s the ’70s -- JJ: I went to jail during that time. HS: What’s going on in the ’70s? JJ: There was some negative thing where -- that was going on during that time. So, how did you respond to that? How did the group respond to that? You had done all this work. And all of the sudden -- HS: You mean how did we respond to -- explain to other people or among ourselves? JJ: Among yourselves and then other people. But among yourselves. HS: Well, it is what it is. (Laughter) You know. We are who we are. Shit happens. And it doesn’t change the overall dynamic, which is what everything was about. So, there’s pressures on people that cause different reactions. It’s just part of life. But it’s not about any one of us individually. It’s about what [01:18:00] needs to be done. So, the issue was what needed to be done. And that didn’t change. I mean, when you ran for alderman Lake View -- no, when I first came here which was two years before you ran for alderman, Lake View was 75 percent Puerto 45 �Rican. By the time I ran and won in 1987, Lake View was maybe 15 percent Puerto Rican, maybe. That is a difference of 14 years, 15 -- what, ’73 to ’87, 14 years. That’s huge. And going back to Lincoln Park for a minute, similarly Lincoln Park changed similarly as dramatically, even more so over a longer period of time, a little longer period of time. The interesting thing [01:19:00] and I think what always struck me about Lincoln Park was that even in the ’80s -- and Lincoln Park stuff happened really late ’60s, early ’70s -- in the ’80s, there were people still hanging out there. So, just because people had moved out doesn’t mean they move on. And that’s what I learned from Lincoln Park, and it was repeated in Lake View. And it’s always -- and to a certain extent, repeated in uptown. The difference is that there’s -- because of AIDS and because of the imprisonments -- I mean, the change in drug laws and because of (inaudible) there’s fewer people to hang around. But it hasn’t changed the fact that there’s people hanging around. It’s just not the same people. So, the dynamic is -- and it’s interesting because I think it leads to some of the -- this is actually really interesting. I think -- [01:20:00] and this is anecdotal obviously. But I remember going back and seeing people in Lincoln Park that I knew from Lincoln Park. I remember going back to Lake View and seeing people that I knew from Lake View. Here, people say, “Oh, there are all these people hanging around,” that they don’t like, and they blame me for it because I found them places to stay or whatever. And they say that’s because -- but they’re not necessarily from here. The people who hang around here, the people who come -- and they weren’t necessarily doing anything. They might have been doing some drugs and stuff, 46 �but I don’t think so necessarily. That might have been a side thing, but that wasn’t the main reason they were there. Today what you find people hanging out on the corners is because they’re here to do business and they’ve come from other communities to do the business. So, it’s a totally different dynamic that creates a much higher level of violence. It’s interesting. Now, they connect and know people here and meet them, so it’s not altogether quite as simple as I said. But it’s sort of interesting. It’s a whole other area of study people could do about gentrification. (Laughs) But [01:21:00] the real point is that when you do gentrification, the thing that you go at the heart of -- and this has been true any -it’s even true when they built Robert Taylor and tore down a neighborhood. What was the -- they built something new. What was the neighborhood they tore down? It was a stable Black working class community of people who owned their homes. And they created a future that everybody thought was going to be this great future, new housing. And it was built so poorly and it was organized and designed so poorly and then managed so poorly that it was made -- it became an impossible place for people to live. That was going in one direction. But it’s always -- if you want to do what you want to do with land, it’s always about destabilizing the people who are there. And that’s an acceptable -- sometimes it’s almost Machiavellian. I think it was more Machiavellian when Robert Taylor -because it sounds to me like it was intentional or more intentional or so clearly [01:22:00] out of a total blind spot of racism. The rest of the gentrification comes out of more greed where it’s acceptable that you can profit from the bad acts of someone else that does act to undermine and destroy people’s lives and maybe 47 �equally as Machiavellian but from a greed point of view as opposed from a racially motivated point of view. But it ends up always taking advantage of race because that takes advantage of people who are a disadvantage. And whether you’re poor white or you’re Black or you’re Latino, you’re still reeling from the dynamic of race. JJ: Now you mentioned poor white, poor Black, poor Latino. So, we’re looking at these campaigns during that time and the type of people that were involved in the campaigns. I know there were students and that. [01:23:00] But I mean, the -for example, the Young Lords and -- how did you see the type of people? Were they students? How did you see them? HS: I’m not -- JJ: In other words, what type of -- how did you see the activism? How was -- you’re coming from -- HS: You know, I have to say that we were so focused on what we were doing. We were intentional about not getting engaged in the politics of the organizations, of anyone. And we stayed away from the left too. People sort of thought we were standoffish. But we worked throughout the ’70s and really up until the time -- the early ’80s. Our focus was really just doing the work. It was quantitative change leads to qualitative change. Every day you talk to people. [01:24:00] Every day you educate people. Every day you provide services. Every day you learn what is that is needed, the people need, societally speaking, that people really need. What needs are in their lives? Do they have enough food? Do they have enough clothing? Do they have the medical treatment that they need in order to 48 �be able to grow? Are they receiving a proper education? Do they have access to education? Do they have jobs and access to them? Are they being prepared to be able to actually be full human beings? We realize who they can be. And every day we were doing something that related to that or that we interpreted to do that. And we all did different things. And sometimes someone else told us what to do and sometimes we told someone else what to do. And sometimes we collectively figured -- always we had some sort of a collective discussion about where we were going or what we needed to do. And almost every day, at least for me, had to remind myself [01:25:00] what the context was, what the reason was. So, it was a constant reevaluation of what we were doing and why we were doing it. But we worked so hard. I don’t think (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: The Young Lords -- because you had an -- HS: Well, I’m talking -- JJ: -- independent (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Well, what I just said related really to the ISC but also pretty much to anyone that I knew in the Young Lords at the time, pretty much anyone I knew in the Black Panther Party at that time. I mean, where people were committed, that’s what they did. And so, that was always gravitated to. If you were serious, then I would sit and do stuff with you I would do it for -- and this is true to this day, I suppose. But if you’re serious -- if you’ve got a problem that you’re trying to solve and you’re serious about it and it’s something that’s really going to be a positive, not a negative, in terms of humanity or humankind, whatever, then I’m there. If I can 49 �help, I’m there. [01:26:00] You got me. You got me until I can’t help you anymore. JJ: And that was going on with all the groups (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: I think that’s -- I mean, that was my perspective. JJ: That was year. That was year. HS: If George was sitting here, George Atkins, he would say, “Yeah, right, Helen,” (laughter) or, “Maybe you or not all of us or sometimes,” and put a grain of reality to it. But that was always my -- I’m sort of crazy and passionate and don’t know when to stop. (Laughs) JJ: And so, now, we go -- the campaign is over. We did very well. We got about 38 percent, 39 percent of the vote. And now, what’s the plan? But we lost. I mean, we lost -- HS: The election. JJ: -- the election, but not the -- HS: Yes, so, we launched the Heart of Uptown Coalition. We start doing country music Sundays and we’re full-fledged in uptown now. We start doing country music Sundays at the Hull-House. JJ: Because there’s no Latino (inaudible). HS: They still are there, but people are moving. Some people coming uptown. [01:27:00] This is process, so it doesn’t happen overnight. And we’re in uptown and we realize and we’re very clear that in uptown at that point, there are the largest concentration of Native Americans outside of a reservation, an Indian reservation in the U.S., in the country, largest concentration of poor white people 50 �in the country, the only census track in the city where you can actually live and be an integrated couple, some of which you can live more easily than others, one of the few integrated census tracks in the city, the place where [01:28:00] a significant number of Japanese families came to after their internment from the camps in California during the war. And now, they were all the aging population. They were all seniors. But they had some real institutions and cultures here. And we learned that just by canvassing. It was like everybody lived together. But clearly, uptown had been a port of entry. And because there had been some -- the location where they had built during the ’60s -- so, it was still relatively new -- late ’60s and early ’70s -- the -- some of the (break in audio) HUD buildings, which were buildings that were built with low interest rates. That was -- during that period of time, the interest rates were double digit. And so, these were very - two and three percent, I think. And so, they were building -- [01:29:00] they built 10,000 of them in the city. And almost a third of those were built in uptown in Lake View. So, we had -- and who lived in them were people -- they each had their own character. But the ones in Lake View had -- but they were really -- I mean, one building had a lot of people who worked for the state of Illinois and were young professionals, largely African American, but not entirely. There was a building that had a lot of -- there were buildings that had Africans and Asians and Latin Americans. Everybody lived in these buildings. Some of them had more Section 8, some had less. Some had 100 percent, some had 20 percent. Some had in between. All of them had below market rents which meant that they could -- it was the only rent control that existed in the city. They couldn’t raise the rents 51 �without approval of the federal government because in return, they’d given the developers very low interest rates. A few of the developers ended up -- turned out to have been decent managers. Most of them were terrible. [01:30:00] And ultimately, fast forward 20 years later, nationally a significant number of those units that were built with these fines -- this program, actually ended up going back into the -- were foreclosed on by HUD and ended up back into their inventory. But in uptown, in Lake View, it was 50/50 in terms of good and bad management. But there was a huge diversity of people that lived in these buildings as well, which added to the diverse nature of the community. But we started to -- but there were real struggles. The tenants wanted to have a say, and they had a legal right to have a say. So, there were issues everywhere. We were having, in uptown, during that time -- there was -JJ: So, you were looking at neighborhood diversity as a good thing? HS: Yeah, yeah, it was an objective reality too. So, this is ’75, and we have [01:31:00] -- so, that’s sort of a description, a little bit, of the community. Now, there was -- there had been prior -- six years or seven years prior to that, the city had decided to build a college in uptown, which was taken as a very cynical gesture by many people because they initially said where they wanted to put the college would have displaced about 5,000 people. So, it was like, “Okay, so, you want to build a college for people who live in the community. But to build the college, you want to move all the people out of the community. How does that add up?” (Laughter) So, there was a huge deal about that. This was before I came to Chicago. But there were people -- I think the Young Lords might have 52 �been involved a little bit. But that was when the Young Patriots were up here and [01:32:00] the original Rainbow Coalition. At any rate, there was a compromise, which -JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible) HS: Yeah, that’s exactly right. And so, there was a compromise that wasn’t a very good one. JJ: But Patriots were (inaudible). HS: That’s right. And the compromise was sort of the liberals negotiated a compromise. The reason I said it wasn’t very good was because they didn’t displace 5,000 but they did ultimately displace about 3,600. But the compromise was to build one building initially, to initially build one building and displace 1,200 people. The problem is that the college clearly had an intention of continuing to take land and to build more and more. And so, while they broke ground in ’74 or ’75 on the college, they were still moving on the rest of the housing [01:33:00] and had already destabilized -- you saw it. I mean, I saw all this happening. When I got here, where the main building of the college was completely vacant. But across the street was not on other side. So, there was Sunnyside and there was Racine. And there were people living and flourishing everywhere. And every day there was a fire or somebody no longer had their heat because all of the pipes had been taken out of the building or whatever or there was a new contract buyer in the building or whatever. But one of those things was happening to everyone in the buildings almost every day. And until we got to the point where they had -- people started to have to find ways to resist. And 53 �ultimately, because of the resistance that people had to the college expanding, they had to -- they did get a few of the buildings on Sunnyside, but they stopped. We really finally stopped them when they got to [01:34:00] like one layer of buildings in. And so, if you look at a map today versus a map 30 years ago, what you see is that Sunnyside jogs a little bit because we stopped them. And so, Sunnyside just was remade a little bit farther south. But they did take the other side of Racine. JJ: How were you able to stop them? HS: Well, it was lots of demonstrations. We went down to the college board all the time. In fact, I think that the first speech I ever gave when I was -- I was really shy. I can’t even believe you remember anything from those days. I mean, I was terrified to speak or say anything to anybody except if I was on a mission and I could do it and if it was one on one. But the first time I had to speak in public was at one of their meetings. The city college board was meeting at Truman College. And oh my gosh. Somebody -- I think it was Slim. And somebody stood behind me and literally pushed me to the podium because I was like in shock. [01:35:00] Anyway, stage fright. But we did all of that. But that was later. Continued to always -- then we wanted -- when they finally built it, we wanted them to actually educate somebody. JJ: Because there were several -- HS: But there were a number of public projects that were designed to be built where people lived allegedly for them. So, we had built in uptown, and the same thing happened where building by building by building was speculated on by people 54 �who made money off of the market in different ways, either by doing contract buys over and over and over again -- definitely milking the building. JJ: It was (inaudible). HS: You buy -- you sell your building to somebody else on a contract. You let them collect the -- you still have the insurance on it. You let them collect -- they collect the rents, and they have to pay you your money every month. So, you’re getting money every month. They get whatever they get -- what’s different from that. It’s probably not very much. And that goes on. But that’s how you make sure you get your money. [01:36:00] But it’s not legally your responsibility anymore. But then, when the building finally burns, which it inevitably does, either at your hand or someone else’s, you get the insurance money. And it was a scam that went on until the late ’70s, early ’80s when we -- JJ: What was the scam? I mean -- HS: Oh, there was a ton of people involved in it. And we tried to get 20/20 involved a few times. They finally did get involved. They just blew it. I mean -- what’s his name? Geraldo Rivera. JJ: He did that arson (inaudible). HS: Yeah, but we originally tried to get him out of here a year earlier. He would have saved some lives. And we set him up in an apartment and everything and said, “This is what’s going on. We know. We canvas every single day. We’ve been putting (inaudible) patrols. We know what’s going on. We know they’re going to hit this building. And we’re going to try and stop it. But we’re out there. We don’t think we can stop it. But we can protect people. But we’re there. But you need 55 �to tell the story so we don’t have to keep doing it.” [01:37:00] He said, “Well, I have to tell the bomb and arson squad.” I said, “Well then,” we said, “If you tell the bomb” -- Mark said, “If you tell the bomb and arson squad, then they’re going to be told. They’re clearly in collusion.” They said, “No, no, we have to do it, blah, blah, blah.” So, they did. So, of course, it didn’t happen. JJ: So, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) collusion with the city (inaudible)? HS: Well, this was -- well, somebody in -- I mean, I wouldn’t say the city. I would say city policy was to encourage building -- city policy created the conditions for opportunists to successfully operate. That’s what I think. JJ: But it was individuals that were doing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Took advantage of it. Individual opportunists. But because of the city’s policy. JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Yeah, yeah. No, exactly. But if you’re really looking at solving the problem, from my point of view later on as an alderman, that’s exactly right. And it was really an interesting conversation. [01:38:00] Then you’ve got to look at it from the point of view of the material impact. If you’re looking at it saying, “This stuff is crazy. This is impossible. We’ve got to shake it up.” You’re going to polarize and do whatever you have to do that. For me, the line comes when you do that from the perspective of having a real -- making a policy change that impacts people’s lives for real versus when you do that for egotistical reasons. And as the alderman, it was so clear to me when people were doing one versus the other. And that’s what drove me nuts. And then, when people were doing -- honest people were doing their organizing -- we had the situation in my last term that really -- 56 �JJ: How many terms did you have? HS: Six. JJ: Six terms (inaudible)? HS: Yes. In my last term, there was an organizing effort to [01:39:00] -- around housing, which was a great organizing effort. And the stated goal was to create - this was not the stated goal. In my view, any goal that had to do with housing would create additional resources for affordable housings. That had to be -- that was the reason you do anything. So, the coalition of folks dealing with this came in and said, “We are going to demand that there be a requirement in the city that the city must spend 20 percent of all its resources it gets from TIF funds on affordable housing.” On the face of that, that sounds great, except that’s not how TIF works. And it was impossible, and they could never meet it because most of the TIFs -- not most, but a significant number of the TIFs don’t even have housing included in their purpose. So, you can’t spend money on housing in those TIFs. [01:40:00] And so, you have to create a way -- JJ: But they play it in the media is -- HS: Yes. JJ: -- that it’s geared towards (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Oh, no one understands it. It’s like so -- and this is in the context of people attacking -- like up here it was in the same time I was doing [Wilson Yard?]. And the folks up here that were opposed to TIFs were opposed to TIFs because they didn’t want it to include affordable housing. So, you have this bizarre dynamic. And they wanted it to be taken down state and have them change the law, not 57 �the way the advocates wanted, but the opposite. But everybody, I thought -- it seemed to me anyway -- was misreading everyone else. So, I said, “Look, let me” -- first of all, they did a study on the TIFs. So, I said, “Let me look at your TIF stuff.” I mean, I have some credibility here because this has been my thing. So, I looked at it, and I got about half way through. And I’m telling Cha-cha, the stuff that I looked at, everybody had access to. It was online. I did it all online. But you had to know how to have access to it. So, I said, “Look.” But it was on the city’s website. [01:41:00] So, I said, “Anyone can do this, and I’ve done half of for you.” I spent 12 hours straight just doing this. I dropped everything else because I want -- but I ran out of time. We had a schedule plan for a meeting. I said, “We’re halfway done. This is what I’ve come up with. If you guys give me some help or do it, we can get the rest of it done. I just can’t do the rest of it because I have a few other things I have to do.” I mean, I was the alderman, right? And they said, “No, we’ve already done our study. We don’t want to redo it. We don’t care. The horse is already out of the barn, and we’re having a rally next week. So, we’re not going to change anything.” And I’m like, “But what you’re talking about doesn’t fit with reality. At least let’s get something that we can really negotiate around material impact with them.” We had a disconnect there somewhere along the decided that everything I was saying I was doing to protect the administration because I had made a deal to get Wilson Yard done. And it was not true. JJ: This is what they were saying? 58 �HS: Yeah. Now, I understand where they felt that way. And it was true that [01:42:00] I was definitely working with the administration to get Wilson Yard done. I think that we influenced each other. And you could argue who had more influence over the other, but I know I had huge influence on this city and on the past administration on affordable housing. But what I really felt was critical of this moment of time was that there were policies that the city had about how you could use TIF money where it could be spent on affordable housing that needed to be changed. And by changing that, you could actually do a lot more with it, because we were limiting what we were allowing people to do with that money, one, and two, there were various areas outside of the TIFs that required change in city policy that would also create a lot more resources for affordable housing. And I was trying to get them on that page to do it. And because of my relationship with the administration, I was able to get everybody in the same room. And we got to an -- [01:43:00] this was over three years -- got to an agreement that had a real material impact, back to the material impact notion. But there were people in the room that had gotten so far out on what this 20 percent requirement that they felt -- I think they felt like it was their personal credibility that was at stake. And my point was that is never going to be agreed to because you’re basically asking them to set the city up -- the city to set itself up to be sued and then we’re going to send money to defend the suit that we should be spending on affordable housing. So, why is that even in your interest to do that? We shouldn’t even be going there. That’s the give because the take is so much bigger. And here's the take. And I listed about 10 things that really 59 �would have materially increased the resources we had for affordable housing. And they wouldn’t go for it. So, six months [01:44:00] later, after the election, the primary election and everyone is shocked at Rahm Emanuel won outright, then they take the original deal, which didn’t include any of improvements and I no longer get them to do it because they laughed at me and said, “Why do we have to do it? We don’t need to do it anymore.” And they voted for something that was a compromise that these guys agreed to. They got nothing and they declared it a victory. And it’s like okay, that’s not good organizing. You did this extraordinary -- I mean, that’s great. You did an incredible job of organizing. You brought all these people together. You brought the city to the table. And instead of taking something that had a material impact on a symbolic thing, you gave it up and you came away with no power. JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: It’s a coalition of people all over the city. And they were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) well, the coalition of groups. It was a coalition of organizations. JJ: Are they still doing that? [01:45:00] HS: Well, the core group is still doing what it does every day because it is sincere on what it does every day, I think, and it deals with people who are homeless. But it does a lot of stuff that does have a material impact incrementally with people’s lives. But ultimately, you’ve got to really create the bricks and mortar. And if you don’t create the bricks and mortar, we’re not going to have the choices. If you don’t have the housing, you’re not going to be able to put people into the housing. 60 �JJ: And your way of -- and you see the (inaudible) what way? I mean, how do you see that? HS: Well, what I’m saying is that they had this extraordinary campaign. They gave us an opportunity -- organizing campaign (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) they gave us the opportunity to actually create the issue that forced some creative thinking and some give and some change in the way stuff was being done that would have created more dollars for bricks and mortar and at a moment in time that it would have been really important because it would have been before a change of administration that would have [01:46:00] meant that the new administration came in looking at the status quo, which would have been a different status quo and moving from that so that you would have only had to have talked to them about maintaining that status quo or improving it. But instead, you’re back here. You’ve gone two steps back instead of two steps forward. Am I clear? No. (Laughter) Okay, so look -- JJ: So, do you think they were going back because they already had a position of strength (inaudible)? HS: Well, no. I think they had a position of strength that could have been used to have a material impact on the issue that they were raising. And instead, they shot for the -- they went for the symbolism instead of the material impact. JJ: Okay. That’s (inaudible). And you were trying to get some kind of -- HS: Yeah, and ironically in this instance -- JJ: -- victory. You were trying to get a (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 61 �HS: Yeah. And in this instance, the symbolism ended up being interpreted by the mass media as just being anti-TIF. Now, we could argue with TIFs until we’re blue in the face. But the objective reality is that for the last [01:47:00] 15 years at least -- well, last 24 years, since Harold Washington was first elected -- since Reagan was elected actually -- federal dollars in housing, in HUD, have been diminishing either for community development (inaudible) grant funds or for housing. They’ve been diminishing. Direct funds for that have been diminishing over that period of time incrementally. Andin the last 15 years the primary area of growth for resources in the city that’s been available for any kind of affordable housing on any level, from 80 percent of median income all the way down to zero percent of median income, has been through TIF dollars. Fact. And so, to attack TIF dollars without figuring out how to make that continue to be the case or how to improve that is [01:48:00] cutting off your nose to spite your face, I think. JJ: But you were saying though that the TIF dollars -- they were saying one thing, but they really were not -- it wasn’t providing affordable housing. HS: No. JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible) what I’m saying. HS: Well -- JJ: So, when -- HS: No, no, no. What I’m saying is that TIF was -- JJ: I mean, I don’t want to attack any money (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: No, no, no. Here’s what I’m trying to say though. TIF became the primary tool that the Daley administration had for economic development. And that economic 62 �development subject includes among that affordable housing. The city has some other resources and gifts for affordable housing, primarily access to tax credits, which don’t actually come through HUD, I don’t think. Anyway, tax credits come through the state and the city gets some and the state gets some. And they allow a developer to sell [01:49:00] -- to syndicate the tax credits they have to people who are willing to pay for them up front so they can get their taxes off the IRS later. And so, that money can be used for development. And there are still some -- what they call home dollars, which comes from HUD, which is free cash, which can be used for things under construction of low income housing, and vouchers now -- not Section 8, but not really -- they’re not on -- those really are what CHA has. And although there are some available through CHA for the general market -- but nothing like in the ’70s or ’80s. And there’s still some CDBG, community development, block grant funds, much less than there used to be. And only a small amount of that gets spent on housing. So, we’re much more restricted. There are some loan programs and other things. But it’s much more restricted than it used to be. [01:50:00] So, if there is a funding mechanism that the city has created that is under attack but which also is a funding mechanism that your area of interested, i.e. in this case housing, has been able to benefit from, then I think that you should be careful about how you polarize the situation. And we’ve experienced in the last -- well, we always have experienced a backlash to people -- there’s always been the “not in my backyard” dynamic in Chicago. It's why when Dorothy Gautreaux filed her lawsuit and there was a consent decree in 1968 that said the city could not build a single unit of a public 63 �housing without building a scattered site unit of public housing, that all public housing (break in audio) because nobody would let them build a scattered site housing in their [01:51:00] community. And the scattered site housing couldn’t be built in the Black community, it had to be built into integrated census tracks, of which there are very in the city, or non-Black -- mostly Black, I guess Latinos in there too but it’s -- I don’t know. That got litigated separately. But you couldn’t have more than -- the minority, I think, was both Black and Latino -- more than 40 percent of living in a census track be in that minority -- be a minority. So, that was a response was not in your backyard. So, everything stopped. So, you have dynamic that’s ongoing of not in your backyard. A lot of the people that -when the newspapers or whoever did an expose on the TIFs and said, “Look at all this money that’s sitting there. No one’s using it. It should go back to taxpayers.” The teachers, who had a legitimate issue, [01:52:00] and the housing advocates who had a legitimate issues, i.e., we want education, we want money on housing, said, “Oh, then let’s take all of that and give it to us, and then we can do it.” Only the money -- it was more complicated than that. A, most of the money that the newspapers said was there wasn’t really there because it was committed or hadn’t been collected yet. B, the money that was there was there and each was in an individual district. And you can only spend TIF money in the district or in an adjacent one by the district. C, a lot of that money was already committed to education and the board of ed because they were building new schools. So, it’s a more complicated conversation. The only reason -- the only people that benefit from making it all seem like one thing are people who just 64 �want to get rid of all the stuff that it does. And everybody can jump on a bandwagon and say, “We don’t like this, that, or the other.” But sometimes when you do that, you’re actually benefiting someone who doesn’t like what you like. They might be in that same coalition. [01:53:00] You just don’t know each other. Everybody’s just out there. It’s, I think, part of the dynamic of our day where there’s so much information. It’s too much to get through. You don’t really get it. And it’s part of what’s happening all over the world. And then, things get sorted out. JJ: I see what you’re saying. I see your point of it. What would you -- looking at it -trying to look at your side, which I -- I’m in that kind of a situation too because -you have Latinos that were displaced, for example, and not only Latinos, but poor whites and African Americans from the lakefront and the downtown area. How do we correct it? There’s clear discrimination there. How does that -- but you can’t pinpoint it because of the various TIF and all these other programs that the city council has come up with. So, I mean, how can [01:54:00] we correct that there’s clear discrimination but legal discrimination. What would be your -- since you -- because I know that you’ve been able to do that in uptown. You’ve been able to help poor people stay in uptown. HS: It’s not a simple question. And the core -- JJ: And this is off the top (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: No, I understand. JJ: I’m just trying to get your expertise in that. 65 �HS: I’ve had this conversation a lot with different people, especially in reviewing what we’ve done, the whole story in uptown. And I have to tell you -- this has come up. No one would -- there isn’t an alderman who would ever want -- they might say they’d like to be like me. I’ve heard people say that. There’s no one who ever wants to do what I did. I worked too hard. I didn’t even want to do what I did. [01:55:00] I couldn’t do it anymore. I mean, I couldn’t do it anymore because conditions changed also. But I’ve been going back and looking at the stuff and all the things that we did, especially in my first three or four terms and -I mean, then my next -- last two terms were really different because they were about making sure that stuff actually happened, (laughs) that the results of things happened. And you only have so much control over the world around you. But I had a core commitment when I became alderman. And I think I stuck to that. That core commitment was that at least -- I was going to do the best that I could do to ensure that resources that were available in the city and in the ward for people as a result of there being people with fewer resources were going to spent to the benefit of [01:56:00] people with fewer resources so that if you had money that was coming into a community for a college, you would make sure that the people who needed to go to that college when the money came in were still going to be there when the college was built or for a health center or for a school, all of which were our story up here. And my first year as alderman, I went to -- I started going to the U.S. League of Cities conferences. That is an organization of municipalities all over the country. They are mostly small, but there are also some larger ones. And we all go to it. So, I would go to those. 66 �And they had these workshops for days. So, I’d always go to the development workshops, and I’d always ask the same question because there would always be presenters who would tell you their success stories. So, I was always asking, “Okay, so you did that. Were the same people there [01:57:00] at the end of the development who were there at the beginning of the development? Did they get a chance to benefit from it?” And usually the answer was complete and total silence. You could hear a pin drop in the room. I suppose I asked the question too directly and they knew the answer -- but really, I never got an answer other than no -- sometimes people were honest -- or really mostly it was silence. And I realized that I was probably going to -- that this was like a -- raising the question was -- there were two things I could do that had value. One was raising the question, and the other was doing my best to protect in uptown and my ward, whatever the boundaries were -- mostly uptown, the existing affordable housing and grabbing every possible opportunity that I had to create additional housing. So, the next thing was [01:58:00] -- okay, so how do I make sure I’m able to do that and stay honest? So, I then -- it was my practice to be dealing with survival issues. So, people said always they look at their alderman for services. So, my next thing was -- and I started this actually when Harold was mayor. I’d been doing it since ’83, these workshops in the community about all the different city departments. So, I knew a lot about sewers, and I knew the condition of our sewers. They were in really bad shape. I got into sewers because I figured let’s go where no one else is looking. So, I went underground. So, I got really detailed. We built -- when Harold was here, I was able to take advantage of him, 67 �and I figured sewers are a big deal. I had him set up for me to meet with the city’s chief engineer. I had her teach me about sewers. And then, I proceeded to go about the business of finding out [01:59:00] what was the status of everything that we had and then getting that rebuilt. We had, when I got elected, two collapsed sewers. So, it wasn’t -- I mean, I had an opportunity -- I had to fix them, and they were big, so that was huge. So, I was sort of a step ahead of everybody. But then, over the course of the next three years after Harold died, I had to deal with the fact that I was in the minority. And I just did my work, and I never dealt with the commissioner except at budget time. So, I took the budget, which I considered the most important thing that the city did because -- that the aldermen did because that was the one thing we were elected to actually do, the one legislative responsibility we always had. And it was the one way you would know how the money was spent. And if you wanted to get stuff done, you had to know where the money was. So, I would study the budget every year, and I would study it by asking questions because they don’t really tell you unless you ask. And then, I learned how to ask questions. But I’d get really frustrated and pretty irritated when people didn’t give me answers, and I was still an alderman. So, over the course of time -- [02:00:00] I mean, it took me 20 years to get all my questions answered. But I did get them answered up until the last day I was there. And nobody wanted to not have their questions when I came there. And they also didn’t want to have any outstanding service requests because it became well known -- I mean, I would ask them that in front of everyone else. And there’s ears on the city council during budget. Everybody’s hearing it. And 68 �the one thing that Daley didn’t like was ever any bad stuff in the press. And oh my gosh. Everything I said was going to go to the press if it was negative. And I was not gratuitous with that. You really had to be doing something wrong. I mean, I didn’t just go off. I mean, I think if you do that, then you become a joke and no one pays attention to you. So, I was not -- I didn’t do that. JJ: It just (inaudible) you had to work with him. HS: No, I’m talking about the first 10 years. JJ: And I’m only saying that because we of course opposed the law (inaudible). HS: Yeah. [02:01:00] I’m talking about -- JJ: But symbolic, not (inaudible) personally, but symbolic. HS: Right, right, right. So, I am very critical of the administration, but I need to get stuff done. So, I am studying the budget, and I am asking questions, and I’m developing relationships with all of the secondary level of -- the people who actually do the work in the departments. They don’t make a lot of the policy, but they make enough of the policy that they get the work done. They can decide if they’re going here or going there. They’re the ones that are going to get them done if something doesn’t get done. So, they don’t me complaining about anything. They don’t really want my praise either. So, it’s great. But they really actually end up liking working with me because -- except if you’re in [02:02:00] CDAT, in which case I just have to intimidate people, unless you’re in one of the departments that just was too macho, and then, I’d find other ways to deal with it, but ultimately to get them to deal with my staff, most of whom often were women. So, that was -- so, we’d do a two-step on them. But we learned how to deal with 69 �all of that. But I really developed relationships. And I was pretty -- we were easy to work with. I mean, around budget time I might have gotten a little bit whatever, but if I had to deal with stuff with the commissioner. But we were -- I was very careful -JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: I never fronted off anybody. I just needed to get the work done. And that’s how I always did it. It was more instinctive than anything else. It wasn’t like I had a plan. I just knew I had to get the work done. I know how to get stuff done. I know that if you want -- that if I’m the person you’re talking to and I don’t have anything to say about getting it done, then I’m the wrong person you should be talking to. So, if I know that’s true for me, [02:03:00] then I can’t help you if I don’t get to make the policy. I’m just passing it on. So, if I’m talking to somebody and I’m not getting the answer I want, then my first question is, “Who makes this decision? Let me talk to the person who’s actually telling me what you have to tell me?” And I get to someone who can make a policy decision, and then, I would deal with that person. But that would mean that next person who I didn’t yell at who everyone else is yelling at but I was really nice to would then help me out the next time because why get -- you don’t kill the messenger. You don’t need to kill the messenger. You really don’t. Actually, if you don’t, then they can become your messenger too. So, we just worked our butts off. And I had a crew, and we worked. And my staff -- and we worked our butts off and really with the goal of, on a day to day basis, we were going to have a material impact. And then, I would go downtown and ask all these questions and force the issue. Now, 70 �Daley’s point of view, I think, [02:04:00] politically was that -- he took over in a very polarized situation. And he had initially around him this very tightknit group of people who were whatever they were -- I mean, I’m not going to get into that. But really, until they were gone, it was impossible to deal with them. I mean, Yules, Degnan -- Degnan was different. Yules and Degnan were different actually. Yules -- I have nothing good to say about him, so I won’t say anything. But he was -- I’m glad he was forced out of the city. Made a huge difference for everyone. Degnan was really interesting because in 1984 when Harold was mayor, there was a heatwave like we just had and there was a real -- and several people in a nursing home in the west side died. And he immediately -- his whole -- I think [02:05:00] Lonnie Edwards was the commissioner of health. Anyway, we immediately put together a plan to deal with heat that then was used every year after that. We had a few other heat things. And it was a really good plan and it worked. Never had been one before. In 1995, we had another heatwave. And the Daley administration -- it was ironic because it’s all very connected. On Friday had been 90 degrees, over 90 degrees for two days at that point or three days. It was Friday afternoon. So, I called at quarter to five because I wanted to leave a note on my office door. I called the Department of Human Services and said, “Where are your cooling centers,” just assuming they’d have them. They said, “Oh, we’re not opening any cooling centers this weekend.” And I went ballistic on them. I said, “People are going to die. You have to.” They said, “Well, whatever.” The next day at noon, I was at an event called by the Jane Addams Senior Caucus where -- in a church [02:06:00] on Belmont. There were 71 �500 people. The place was packed. And the mayor was there as well. He came to speak to them. And they demanded to know from him -- and I was there too as one of their alderman, and Bernie Hanson was there as alderman on the ward. They wanted to know -- they demanded and got from him at that meeting a commitment to build a senior building. And we ultimately built it. We had (inaudible) when we couldn’t a library there. And I saw him there, and I said, “You know, you really need cooling centers.” And as we left there, the news reports started coming out about all the people that were dying. And on Monday, I met with Degnan and Yules and Victor Reyes and George was with me. And I said, “It is not [02:07:00] in my nature to take advantage of people’s deaths. I’m not going to do it. But you guys have a heat plan that you won’t use because it was Harold Washington’s. And shame on you. And these are the elements.” I gave them 15 points of a heat plan. “And all 15 of these things need to be done by Friday or I will go to the press and I will talk about how you didn’t open up any of the cooling centers and how you did absolutely nothing until people had already died and yet you had the plan you could have used and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if you do that, that’s it. I won’t make a big deal about it because the issue here is people are dying and we have to stop it. And I will work with you on this. And I will stay in the background. But if you don’t do it, I will blast you.” I saw Degnan on Friday morning. He said, “We did every” -- I’ve never seen the man smile before. He said, very solemn, “We’ve done everything on your list, everything.” [02:08:00] And then, he gave me a smile. “So, I suppose you won’t be going to the press.” And I said, “If you did everything, we’re cool.” 72 �JJ: (Laughs) (inaudible). HS: But I appreciated that because he took me seriously and he did it, maybe because he took me seriously. I guess it’s always good to be taken seriously. And I would have. I mean, I just -- but I would have been in tears because people were dying left and right. It didn’t make any sense. And it was so simple, the stuff they did. And I look now -- I mean, one of the things was that we made them go get those sprinkler caps and put them on the fire hydrants. And so, when they were talking this week about the heat wave last week and the heat wave and how dangerous that was, I’m like -- I debated whether I should call and say, “Dammit, just go get those things out of storage somewhere? They are really okay, and you can go out there with -- use your caps” -- well, we don’t even have caps anymore -- “Use -- you can do that.” [02:09:00] Because that is -heat’s a real thing. That was just one of my (inaudible) things. But the point, I think, about this notion of -- how do you do what you do and how do you get that done? So, I was really focused on housing. And during the ’90s we had a huge problem getting some of the housing stuff done. We really -- I had -- there was property on Winthrop. In the ’90 census, I inherited the 4800 block of Winthrop. And I had engaged the entire block and the entire building of 4848 in a discussion about what to do with that housing and had -- what to do across the street with the empty land and how to create something that would allow for really a mixed income. Now, when I talk about mixed income, I mean -- what really is anywhere from zero to 80 percent of median income in the city, right? I mean, really it’s sort of -- 73 �JJ: But they don’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: How do you create stability? JJ: Right. [02:10:00] HS: And that means being able to have people come and live their lives, which is if today you work, tomorrow you don’t or you really do well but then something happens in your family, whatever -- you have to allow for all of that stuff -- or you’re really doing poorly but you’re working every day. Whatever. JJ: So, that’s the -- the mission is try to create stability is what you’re saying (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: Well, yeah, and in the real world so that anybody, regardless of their income, has what they need to be able to have a roof over their head. JJ: But you get into -- how does that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: Here’s the point. The market takes care of anyone who can afford it. And if the market takes care of everyone really, then I don’t care. I don’t need to mess with the market. The problem with the market is that people aren’t able to interact with it, for one reason or another, or the market is destroying their own stability, which is -- depending on where you are with the cycle of speculation. [02:11:00] People in uptown or in Lincoln Park during periods of gentrification often are destabilized and to no fault of their own because that’s what the market is doing. That’s what the government -- JJ: There was some racism involved in it -- HS: Totally. JJ: -- in Lincoln Park (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 74 �HS: There’s always -- I mean, that’s part of the dynamic of the status quo. JJ: Whether it was economic or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: I think that race plays in and out of all of it. I don’t think there’s any question about that. Race is the cutting line in our society. It’s the core of our existence. It’s the core of our foundations as a country. Our constitution, exhibits, in some measure, the history of correcting, improving on the limits of its own founding. And one of those improvements has been, in my view, outlawing discrimination, dealing with issues of racism [02:12:00] objectively in the law. The fact that there’s people today talking about during that back is enough to actually make me catatonic at some moments in time. That’s really a setback that is unimaginable to me but really quite extraordinary. So, it’s an ongoing process because it is part of who we are as a people and is aggravated by any effort or any stronghold individually collectively that we may have that diminishes one group for another’s benefit and then takes advantage of that and has [color of law?] to do so, both personally and economically or in any form of power. I mean, it is what will destroy the country, if it’s not dealt with. I mean, it is what would destroy any society or any culture, whether it’s a small culture -- you’re talking about a small community or one that you’re [02:13:00] talking about a whole government or one that you’re talking about internationally. JJ: Yeah. But I’m saying is that the bottom line is that that’s what happens in those areas (inaudible). HS: Totally. Well, all of them. Well, it’s racism (break in audio) reiterate what I said earlier. I think that -- 75 �JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: No, but I think it’s racism that allows a situation (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) it’s racism that allows the situation to occur when it negatively impacts poor people as well, whether they’re -- or any people as well, whether they’re white, Black, or Latino because it is that dynamic, which the core of dehumanization that undermines our growth as people. Sorry. I just think that that’s true. So, yeah, of course. And it’s important to understand and acknowledge the specifics of it at different times, especially when there’s a possibility of changing it or changing [02:14:00] what’s allows. But there’s the legal aspect, and then there’s the practical aspect. JJ: So, is there a possibility of changing that, or is that just going to remain the -- HS: Oh, I think that. JJ: -- the same? HS: Oh, you mean do you think the people are inherently racist? No, I don’t. JJ: No, I’m saying -- I mean, clearly that’s what happened in those areas. I mean, do you agree? HS: I think that there has been historically structural racism in the city of Chicago. JJ: Okay. And then, so what -- I’m just trying to -- I’m -- HS: Okay, so, let me go back to -- JJ: -- have you thought about it? Have you thought about (inaudible)? HS: I always think about the things. I think the -- one of the -- there are two things that Harold did when he became mayor that I think were very insightful. He said that we -- well, there was one thing he said that had two parts to it. He said that 76 �if we’re going to change a city so that it serves everybody, then we’re going to have to deal with institutional racism and institutional corruption. It’s not about individuals. It’s about the institutions that allow people to act in a certain manner and actually encourage them to do so. That’s why changing law is actually important. [02:15:00] Changing laws are all the same thing, different (inaudible). And he said honestly, that takes a long time. And he gave himself 20 years to do it. He didn’t have 20 years. But he put in motion a series of things that really have had a huge impact on the city. And what I was getting to about Daley was that, as a practical politician, he came to a conclusion, which I think was more clear after these guys left, the ones that I was just talking about. But he came to -- or at least he was able to open up his immediate circle to be able to -- whether he thought this before or not, I don’t know -- but clearly a decision he made was that he needed to out-Harold Harold. So, there was a bar [02:16:00] that Harold had set at a moment in time. I think if Harold had been here with us longer, the bar would have continued to rise. But Daley took the bar. He may not have risen it higher, but over the course of the next 15 years, he met that. He actually -maybe even 10 years, no 15. He actually met that. He did a series of things that Harold was very clear about. So, he made sure that we -- he did the affordable housing stuff. I mean, he actually established certain rules and guidelines that the city had to follow. He created -- he worked with the aldermen and make sure we had an ordinance that dealt with minority contracting and did things to protect it and successfully defended it in court. He -- whatever. I mean, there’s a whole list of things. So, that was a smart political move [02:17:00] because he needed 77 �the Black community in order -- he wanted to have the Black community. He wanted to also change his image of who he was. He was doing all those different kinds of stuff. That’s not to say that there’s not a lot of criticism -- I’m just talking about this thing you raised here -- or even that there wasn’t a lot of racism that carries on. But the institutional racism that those things attacked changed, in some measure, the city. The corruptions, it’s clear that -- and everybody protects their situation because they’re protecting themselves, especially when you’re talking about corruption (inaudible) going to jail. If you talk about racism, then you’re just talking about whether -- it might affect someone’s job. But they’re not really -- it’s a little bit -- unless they kill someone. So, the -- plus it’s more -- [02:18:00] I don’t know -- they’re both accepted. That’s the problem. So, with corruption though there’s -- I mean, there’s been so many changes. And the problem with corruption is it’s not just in public life. It’s not just in the city. I mean, it's true with racism as well. But with corruption somehow everyone denies -- people acknowledge racism generally. They may say, “It’s not me,” but they acknowledge it generally. Corruption -- they really like to put it just on the politicians. But the truth is corruption thrives in the political world because it is rampant in the corporate world (laughs) because who else takes advantage of it? I mean, really, who’s always benefiting? So, it gets a little bit more complicated. And to me, the cynicism which is -- what do what we were earlier talking about, about this disconnected or about how viewing things from different perspectives -- which I really liked that conversation. To me, what I was trying to say was -- there’s a line -- and I talked about it as individual versus [02:19:00] 78 �collective. But I think another way to talk about it is cynical versus intentional. So, I don’t have any problem being skeptical. And I certainly have (inaudible) times in my life being paranoid because sometimes there’s a reason to be. If you are assigned an FBI agent, there’s a good reason to be concerned about the FBI. And I’ve had that experience. So, I mean, I know that they’re there. That’s not paranoia. That’s just an actual fact. Whether it makes me be -JJ: Who (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: In Racine we had our own personal FBI agent. We did. We used to talk to him. (Laughs) It was -- I wish (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) remembered his name. I do remember what we looked like. But cynicism is really -- undermines us because there’s nothing positive about cynicism. It saps your energy, and it makes everything bad. And often [02:20:00] when there’s a polarization, which is done for organizing reasons. It’s positive when it’s done in a manner that really has an objective that will create the opportunity for material impact. But then, you have to take that. You’ve got to take the victory and run with it. Do something with it. I think. But if it’s really just about proving something is bad, then it’s just about cynicism, and it does not help make anything better. That’s my problem. All it does is foster anger. And honestly, in the world we live in today, we don’t need any more anger. We’ve got enough of it. JJ: I see. I agree with that. I agree with that. But then, I still see the (laughs) other point. The point is that they’re frustrated too because there’s no -- HS: I totally get that. JJ: -- nothing that -- 79 �HS: Well, and part of why -- JJ: -- has changed in all these years. HS: And part of why we -- well, there have been some changes because I mean -- JJ: No, significant changes because you [02:21:00] have the lakefront that’s really white -- HS: Except in uptown. JJ: Except in uptown? No, like -- that’s (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: But listen, but that’s what’s so frustrating about this. I mean, there’s been a lot of gentrification up here. But we still have been able to make sure -- JJ: Even the word “gentrification” is like -- it’s a nice term to put on what effect on these people’s lives including the youth and the gang and the violence that came from an unstable environment that was created. So, how do we correct it? That’s what I’m saying. HS: And what I was trying to say is that we have -- I have a lot of -- JJ: And I don’t (inaudible). (Laughs) HS: We’ve had a lot of gentrification up here, and we’ve also had a lot of intentional actions to ensure that there continues to be at least some affordability and people [02:22:00] who have fewer resources are able to stay in this community and to be able to -- JJ: I think this is (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Well, yeah. But I think that’s important to stress that even though we’ve done that, we still have had a lot of gentrification. And we have not -- I don’t think -and one of the side effects of that is you have this hugely volatile group of people 80 �who are so meanspirited and react -- my opposition became incredibly vicious. And they find excuses for the current alderman, because he’s their guy, for the same things they would crucify me for. I mean, the violence hasn’t dissipated up here. It’s worse. It’s not anywhere near other parts of the city, but it’s still here. And they like to blame it on poor people. And when they blame it -- and they like to blame is the point. [02:23:00] They don’t really have anyone to blame it on now so they come up with really crazy things like -- now they’re blaming it on (inaudible) but the point isn’t blame. The point is -- what do we do about solving problems in our world so that we can all do that? And when there’s anyone -- I think this is sort of the bully mentality -- who is a bully in the sense of saying, “No, I know better, and I’m not going to participate with you.” And it’s happening all over. It's happening in politics all over the country. It happens in communities all the same. And the bully gets the most to say. And yet, if you ever had an election, the bully would never get the votes. I mean, even in a closet ballot in a room, forget a big election. But people are intimidated by the bully and therefore either walk away because they don’t want to have anything to do with it or just shut up. And the bully is screaming and yelling and saying, “All this is about these people that I don’t like in my community because they’re there,” and pointing the finger at someone who made [0:24:00] them be there. And that was the dynamic we had here and continue to have here on some level and I think have citywide. And I don’t know the answer. I mean, right now, I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to that. I think that what we did was the right thing to do in terms of the housing. I was going to talk -- I started to talk about what happened 81 �in the ’90s. And unfortunately, I think we lost some opportunities to really -- well, I mean, in ’87 I did and then again in the ’90s. But there were two different times when I tried to create, on multiple properties, owner occupied three flats where we would market the three flats to people who lived at -- basically on teacher salaries -- we were really gearing them toward teachers -- who lived in the community [02:25:00] or wanted to live in the community and who either lived in the community or taught in the community. We were trying to get people who knew the community. If they would own or occupy the three flats and agree to rent the other two units at below market rent -- so, it didn’t have to be low income, but that they would moderate the rents. And they could take in Section 8 or they would moderate the rents. And they would live there and do that. And by doing so, we would create a sort of -- you are orchestrating this. But we would plant that seeds to create opportunities to be the glue between very rich and very poor, which is what we were end up having at some point, and build this kind of sort of -- in building each of these pieces of property, the opportunity for [01:26:00] different levels of people to be living there and different ways for people to be able to organize their lives. And we were focused on teachers because we knew then that they would be focused on their students and on their students’ families. But you didn’t have to go there, but that was the idea that we kind of developed in ’87. We had a whole plan for it, and it was actually killed intentionally during the course of Harold’s funeral. It was the last thing -- the last time I met with him was on the last city council meeting before he died, which was a Wednesday two weeks or three weeks before he died, on the podium. 82 �And he was arranging to meet -- two things we were working on, lights at Wrigley Field and the protection for the neighbors, which is what I wanted, and this housing thing I had, which we were going to go on 17 tax delinquent properties. And to do that, he needed to Dunne to agree. JJ: How was that (inaudible)? HS: We were going to get a hold off 17 properties that had delinquent taxes through a tax reactivation program that the county board had to approve. And he was talking to George Dunn about doing it. And it was supposed to have been a week earlier. And Dunne had -- they had deferred it, and I went ballistic. And he said, “This is all politics. It’s about the city wide politics. It’s about the dream ticket for the February primaries. And give me a few weeks, and I’ll deal with it.” And so, he got me that day and he said, “I’m still working on it. I’ll get back to you. Come in and meet with me. I’ll call you shortly to come in and meet with me.” And then, he called over Rob Meer, and he said, “Meet with Helen. Schedule it now about the protection -- I want you to do all the -- [02:28:00] put in the ordinance for light. We can’t do lights unless we do every protection she wants. Put it in there. Tuesday morning before Thanksgiving -- so, Rob and I agreed to meet Friday after Thanksgiving. Tuesday morning I get a phone call -I’m sorry, Tuesday night -- I get a -- Tuesday -- did he die on Tuesday or Wednesday? The night before he died, I get a phone call, “Come in and meet me tomorrow,” I think it was Tuesday, “Come in and meet,” it was my birthday -- it was Tuesday. “Come in and meet me” -- no, I get a call Monday. “Come in and meet me” -- I don’t know. “Come in and meet me tomorrow at eleven o’clock, 83 �and I got it all worked out.” I said, “Great, fantastic.” So, I get to the office. And I’m on my way upstairs and right on time to walk in at eleven. And Rob Meer jumps in the elevator and is freaking out because he thinks I’m going to go talk to him about his stuff, and we haven’t met yet. And I said, “No, no, no, no, no. Don’t worry about. I’m meeting about the other thing. We’re cool,” get off the elevator. It’s two minutes [02:29:00] after eleven and Harold was dying in his office. First city council meeting we had, Cathy Osterman, who was the alderman of 48th ward, stands up and defers and publishes -- my ordinance to do all this had been passed through finance and was just sitting to go through to city council. It never -- it had been deferred and published to city council, which means you’re going to vote on it. But any two alderman say postpone the vote until after the next city council meeting when the journal is published. So, it had been deferred and published, and we were supposed to vote on it. And she -- no one’s ever done this ever, to my knowledge, before or since. And she puts in a motion to kill my ordinance. Usually they just don’t call it up. But she called it up to defeat it, and they defeated it. [02:30:00] And that was because I voted for Evans instead of Sawyer. So, we lost that opportunity. Then in the ’90s, I brought it back, and I wanted it -- we were going to try and do something similar, new version based on what the city was doing. And the housing commissioner refused to even talk to me about it. Meanwhile, I went and got all the properties assembled. I got a developer to assemble all the properties. And because of something that happened in another part of the city, he then decided he wasn’t going to deal with me. It was taking too long. And he turned around -- even 84 �though I did all the work. But he bought the properties. But I did all the work to make it possible. JJ: Who was this? Who was this? HS: It was Thrush. He turned around and sold all the properties to -- JJ: [Russ?] was the name? HS: Thrush, T-H-R-U-S-H. He turned around and sold -- [02:31:00] we was upset with me about something else in another part of the city. He sold the properties to individual developers for lots of money. So, he made big time money off of it. I mean, I gave him the context that made it possible to acquire it. It was a nursing home and something else. But it was a huge tract of land. So, ultimately what we ended up doing by swapping some city property over the course of time was that I was able to get a developer to build two buildings there. I basically -- I leveraged some city owned property. And he agreed to use two CPAN units, which was a program that I got the city to do which allowed for affordable home ownership. So, we basically built 16 units that sold for $145,000 including parking, to 16 families. And they were all -- there were two -- four of those 16 units were [02:32:00] two bedroom apartments, and the rest were three. So, that was what we got instead of our 17 lots of owner occupied three flats. It took me a long time to do that. And that didn’t happen until this century in 2003 or 2004. But we lost that opportunity in the ’90s. We had a horrible time in the ’90s getting anything done. It was horrible up here. And meanwhile -- just with housing. But I was able to protect the housing we had and get some stuff redone. And then, 85 �we had a little bit done, a few buildings here and there. But mostly -- and then, really protected the health clinic and some of the other infrastructures that -JJ: (Overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HS: -- poor people used. Yeah. Well, I focused on the entire health system. My goal was to make sure that we continued to have a board of health that [02:33:00] provided service and/or a broader public delivery system, which we had some steps forwards and backwards. When the city was trying to close down Lawndale -- no, not Lawndale -- oh, what’s the community right on the hospital, the University of Chicago Hospital, with a W? JJ: Woodlawn? HS: Woodlawn. Gosh. Woodlawn. I went -- Ruth Rothheimer was at the county. And the alderman was Linda Troutman. And I went to Linda. I said, “Don’t let them close it down. Why don’t you talk to Ruth and see if we can’t just do a partnership with the county.” So, she called Ruth, and Ruth said sure. So, we were able to get that done. But later on, the county gave up the Woodlawn site, so then, I started to get nervous [02:34:00] about it. And so, we started to look at -- because this was -- since the Republicans have been basically withdrawing all public resources, it’s been really a problem to -- you get money like specialized stuff like -- JJ: The Republicans? Where from? HS: Well, nationally -- JJ: Oh, national. 86 �HS: -- the national move to eliminate any funds for local -- so, health wise, the only resources that we -- so, all cities in the whole country in the last couple of years. I mean, I call it a -- we may have a Democratic administration, but we have a Republican shutdown of government. So, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) over the last years as all of the cities and states have had to come to terms with the loss of federal revenues, which is really the biggest crisis we’ve had -- JJ: Okay, so you’re saying we might have a Democratic administration but the Republicans -- HS: Republicans are shut down -- JJ: -- are shutting down -- HS: Nationally we have a Republican shutdown -- JJ: Oh, okay. HS: Because nothing is happening. [02:35:00] I mean, they’ve shut down Congress. So, one of the impacts (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) so, you have an economic crisis. You have a Republican shutdown. You have private industry beginning to come back. But governments all over the entire country on every level having to lay people off, which is the real source of the (break in audio) in the country actually. And it impacts what people get, which -- service wise, which makes people angry. And it’s all done in the guise of dealing with excess money people are spending, which is crazy. I mean, sure, there’s corruption because there’s corruption everywhere, and we can do things better and some stuff we should have done. But oh my gosh. It actually costs money to do this stuff. And now, the only way they’re really dealing with it is by taking away people’s 87 �pensions. So, it's really kind of freaky, if you ask me. But anyway, that’s not what I was going to talk about. [02:37:00] So, there’s been a loss of a great deal of resources on every level of government, including the city. And when it’s on the state, that’s even additional stuff. Because we got stuff from the feds. We also used to get stuff from the state. So, health is one of the areas that’s affected. And the county has the legal responsibility by the state constitution to do (inaudible) healthcare. And the city for many years, since old man Daley was the mayor and wanted to compete for federal dollars for healthcare, has been doing some health delivery. And we have an infrastructure for public health delivery in the city but only through clinics. But the other area where there are federal dollars that are still there and go into healthcare is in clinics, in federally subsidized health clinics. And those are all not for profits, and they provide public health [02:37:00] essentially. And so, my thought was that there were some people thinking in the health department and others that maybe we should do some partnerships. The city can’t get those federal funds. They’re specific to that entity. So, we can’t use them for our clinics, which operate just like their clinics. So, maybe we should do a partnership, and then, we could take advantage of additional federal funds. So, we did an experiment with that in uptown, and they’re doing that with more clinics now. And I’m ambivalent about it. But my bottom line is that the city keep the infrastructure -- we own the infrastructure that we own -- and that it’s a partnership so, that we’re infusing more resources. It’s medical. You need a medical director no matter what. It’s not a bureaucracy. It’s a medical director. So, that’s a good thing. (Laughs) And 88 �you have a qualified medical director, and then, you have qualified doctors. And you do what you have to do. So, they’re doing [02:38:00] some more of that, and then, they’re going this other stuff with the county. But health is really something to be -- now, who knows what’s going to happen with -- there are some of the health laws -- the new healthcare laws are going to be implemented. And then, we’ll see what happens with the election, whether the rest of it is. So, there are changes, and all those things work with them. But at risk in my view consistently is the public infrastructure. And we’ve gotten used to talking about privatization and characterizing it either as bad or as good, depending on what side of that argument you’re on. But the definition needs some -- I think that what I’ve come to believe is that we need to update the definition because when we talked about the clinics, that was the debate. Are you privatizing them? So, from the point of view of asking me how the staff did -- they said, “They were privatizing it. We’re going to lose our jobs. Therefore, it’s privatized.” And when we did the thing in uptown, my bottom line was [02:39:00] no one can lose their job. You can transfer them to another -- two things, no one can lose their job, one, unless they were already planning on leaving and, two, any extra resources that the city realizes as a result of this needs to stay in the public health department and go into other clinics in the city. So, they agreed to that. I think two jobs were eliminated, but nobody was working in them. And that work is being done because it’s structured differently, and that’s okay in my view. But that’s -- you do that anyway. But apparently in the last year -- and I know this only from reading newspapers -- but it sounds like what happened was that a lot of people did lose 89 �their jobs, when I looked at the stuff from the budget last year. Now, some of that changes. I didn’t know what happened in the final budget. I just know when they were done with the articles. But I have to admit to you that when the city budget came out last year I actually read it -- (Laughs) I couldn’t help myself -- and compared it. But I didn’t keep up with -- I didn’t go [02:40:00] to the hearings, so I don’t know what they changed. So, if they in fact are then just saying, “We’re going to just go have someone else do our delivery,” then you really are -- then I think you’re on the verge of that. And so, I thought we had a really good model. And I guess the best I can say that I did all the time is create models. And I don’t think they’re using that same model. And that’s the kind of demand. But if you just says it’s privatization, then you’re just polarized. “I’m for, I’m against it.” Is you say, “Wait, let’s just talk about what needs to happen and how you can make that happen,” then you have a chance. And I think that’s the problem currently out of the box that happened with the teacher’s union -- I mean, you’re dealing with a mayor whose nature is to polarize, really. He also wants to solve problems. I think that -JJ: This is the new mayor? HS: Yeah. I think he does honestly actually want to solve problems. But it is in his nature to go -- you start a fight, he’ll fight back. [02:41:00] And he usually won’t listen. He won’t let up until he wins. Unfortunately, I think that’s overkill in this situation. And I think that the dynamic could have been entirely different. And I would hope that it would change because I don’t think it’s healthy for anyone, whether you’re talking about education or any of these other areas that really 90 �provide service to people around things that are necessary to survive. I mean, that’s the bottom line for me. That’s where government’s role is, whether it’s in the market, not taking care of people, housing market, medical market, whatever. People need to be able to know that they have the ability to survive. And this new categorization of any of that is socialism -- which who cares if it is or it isn’t -therefore as something that no one should want, which Romney does left and right and drives me absolutely nuts because it’s all rhetoric about what’s at risk [02:42:00] and something that he will never understand because he’s never wanted for anything in his life and never really known anyone who wanted for anything in his life is that the world in which he has governed has -- because of the things that he is so much a part of -- has created and perpetuated these -- so many inequalities and so many negative aspects to it that just don’t take into consideration the real needs that so many people have. And if you’re doing that just to even one person, there’s a problem with what you’re talking about. But when you do it to so many, it’s just -- so, I was reading all these little -- people now through Facebook always are sending out all these factoids. So, I don’t know if this is true. But one of the factoids that came out, which if it’s true -- I have to believe might be -- is really -- actually had me sort of discouraged for at least a day is this -- if you take all the money that was spent [02:43:00] this year alone on -- just on all of the Republican primaries, you could probably improve by 10 fold the quality of living of virtually everybody in the world. JJ: If you take all the money (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 91 �HS: Well, maybe it wasn’t that. Maybe it was that everybody wouldn’t have to be hungry. JJ: Of the Republican what? HS: Just the money spent on the Republican -- JJ: Primary. HS: -- primaries. You’d have enough money to make it possible -- I think everyone have a place to live, something like that. It’s like, “Oh my god.” And you know (inaudible) socialist or communist. And I just don’t get it. Maryanne Stamps used to say -- she used to demand that -- JJ: Maryanne Stamps was the organizer of the Cabrini-Green (inaudible)? HS: Yeah, tranquility. Her point was -- start off with welfare rights -- her point was if everybody -- if you had a flat amount of income that everybody had to have which was equal to what you needed to have a place to live [02:44:00] and food on your table, healthcare -- of course, in any other country you’d already have healthcare -- if everyone just had that -- you know, if you had a medical card -- if everyone just had that -- and when she was talking about, that was maybe $8,000 or $9,000 a year, and today it might be $20,000. But then you started from that. Then you would actually -- then all things being equal, people would actually have a chance to be able to do something (inaudible) or go to school. They could work and go to school. I mean, they could do stuff that they just can’t do now because they don’t have the time to spend doing it. And when you say, “Well, they’re lazy. They’ll sit around. They’ll do all that,” it’s all self-fulfilling 92 �prophesies because if you don’t actually make a change and redefine the context, then no one is going to act differently. Are we done? JJ: Any final thoughts? [02:45:00] HS: (Laughs) I think I’ve given you quite a few. JJ: And (inaudible) have another (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: Yeah, I saw her. I told you we weren’t going to get done in an hour (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. HS: We actually got to quite a bit. JJ: Any final thoughts (inaudible)? HS: I think that I never have a final thought. (Laughs) JJ: Okay, well, I appreciate that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HS: It’s not over -- END OF AUDIO FILE 93 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ffe25a1e564a65cc26a6beb55620f3cc.mp4 dbe0498c53ed7a5e5974825263760158 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Helen Schiller vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Shiller_Helen Title A name given to the resource Helen Shiller video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shiller, Helen Description An account of the resource Helen Shiller, a Jewish American born in 1947 in Long Island, New York. Her father had immigrated to the United States from Latvia and her mother from Belarus. She moved to Chicago’s Uptown neighborhood in 1972, living on N. Malden Street. Initially she drove a cab and worked as a waitress. At an early age, she became active in the anti-Vietnam War movement while attending college at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. In Chicago, she helped to organize the Intercommunal Survival Committee with Rev. Walter “Slim” Coleman. The organization functioned as a sort of white support arm of the Black Panther Party and later evolved into the Heart of Uptown Coalition, a group dedicated to providing essential services to the poor. She also edited Keep Strong magazine. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a9449b751a8d8ac753732a30fee1bd86.pdf 100e9de2b1c0dee2ec46663d4b19a2c1 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Steven Sapp Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/8/2012 Biography and Description Steven Sapp was born and raised in South Bronx, New York City. He earned his B.A. degree at Bard College and is married to Mildred Ruiz-Sapp of the Universes Theatre Ensemble. Together, Mr. Sapp and Ms. Ruiz-Sapp co-founded THE POINT, a community development corporation (Hunts Point) in 1993 and Universes, a New York-based theatre group that fuses poetry, jazz, hip hop, politics, blues and Spanish boleros to create its own productions which are performed on and off Broadway, nationally and internationally. Mr. Sapp has received numerous awards for his acting and has written, acted in, and directed scores of productions. One of his most recent productions is “Party People” (2012) which is primarily about the Black Panther Party and the Young Lords. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. If you can give me your name, Steven, and your birth date, and where you were born. STEVEN SAPP: My name is Steven Sapp. Birthday is May 12, 1966, and I was born and raised in the South Bronx, New York City. JJ: The South Bronx. And what was the date again? I’m sorry. I didn’t [hear?]. SS: Steven Sapp. JJ: But the date? SS: May 12, 1966. JJ: Okay. SS: Yeah. JJ: [Seems pretty young?]. Okay. Any brothers and sisters, or --? SS: I got one sister. She’s five years younger than me? Five years younger than me. It’s just the two of us. JJ: [And your?] parents’ names? SS: Same. [Patricia?] Sapp. Steven Sapp. JJ: [The same?]? SS: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Okay. These are more, like, oral history, so -- SS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: -- (inaudible). SS: Yeah. 1 �JJ: So, [00:01:00] what was it like -- just a little, brief background of what it was like growing up in the Bronx and that ’cause I’m not familiar with the Bronx. SS: Yeah. Well, the Bronx in particular that I remember was -- and I’m from the projects of the Bronx, and I remember -- JJ: What projects? SS: Forest projects, the Bronx. And I just really remember there being bombed-out -well, what looked like bombed-out buildings. You can go for blocks, and blocks, and block, and blocks. A lot of the tenement buildings were burnt out, and I’m old enough to remember the ’70s, where landlords, mostly the Jewish landlords, would burn out apartment buildings. They would pretty much come on a Tuesday, and say, “Everyone has to move out of the building by Friday,” for insurance, and burn it. And so, there was stretches of time where you could go for blocks, and it was nothing there. JJ: But, I mean, did they own the projects? SS: No. The projects were different. The projects were separate, but everything around the projects was burnt out, so, when [00:02:00] you left the project, you literally walked through what looked like war. JJ: So, this was around the ’70s? SS: I was born in ’66, and what I remember is, when I’m being four and five, so, like, 1970, ’71, ’72. JJ: So -- 2 �SS: So, I remember when the Panthers, especially in New York, were around, and when the Young Lords, the New York chapter of the Young Lords with the Garbage Offensive -- that’s what we were looking at. JJ: Oh, you saw that? SS: Yeah. JJ: I mean, literally -- SS: I literally saw mounds and mounds of garbage. I remember that that was kinda like -- and then you had rats running through the garbage. So, when we were little kids, playing, and if you were playing near the street, where the garbage was, that’s what you saw. And the projects were the projects. Everybody was stacked on top of each other, and this is before crack, so it wasn’t all crazy in terms of -- but it’s still a project living. You know, we had free cheese. The government’s giving out free cheese, so you stood in line. JJ: [Yeah, I remember that was?] (inaudible). SS: Yup, and you got your block of free cheese. So, my life was pretty much consisted of project living and the tenement buildings. JJ: Okay, so, free cheese -- that meant, you were a family [00:03:00] [on welfare?] -- SS: Yes. JJ: -- at the time? SS: We were on welfare. JJ: That was part of the welfare program. SS: That was part of the -- yeah. And so, that’s -- for me -- JJ: Was it everybody like that on welfare in the projects, or --? 3 �SS: Yeah. It seemed like everybody was on -- and, [literally?], that’s just what it was, and I learned really early on it was -- for me, I figured out that it just seemed like it was just a cycle. Everybody was caught in the same thing and that there was no way out. Like, I saw my aunts, and my uncles, and my father, and everyone was just working-class people, but it was like a ceiling, and nobody was breakin’ out of it. The best thing you could do was get into the projects. You know what I mean? And I remember being young, going, “I don’t want to die here without seeing what’s outside of the projects,” and I was very conscious of that. I got to get out of here just to see something else. I don’t want to die here. JJ: Did you have other relatives that had gotten out of the projects? SS: No. Everybody was kind of -- it was that. So, I was the first person in my entire family [00:04:00] -- family -- to go to college, to go. And nobody knew how to explain it to me. In terms of how to fill out a college application, all that stuff, my guidance counselor did that with me ’cause my -- JJ: (inaudible) get to that point where you’re thinking (inaudible)? What [was it?] growing up, and grammar school, and all that? SS: Well, I will tell you this. I had a teacher in the second grade. His name is [Gary Simon?], and he created the [ABC Schools?], which is like a better change, and it was like they would take inner city kids and bring them to these prep schools, and it was like a -- yeah, it was like in junior high school. You would go to these prep schools. And he signaled out a couple of kids early, like in the first and second grade, to -- he thought that we were smart, and we were in classes that had 35 kids in the class, and he wanted to make sure that these particular kids 4 �who he thought were really smart [00:05:00] can make it. So, I got picked by him in the second grade, and he went to our parents, and it was eight of us, nine of us, and we stayed after school to work. So, we did our regular day in school, and then, at three o’clock, you went to Mr. Simon, and you’re with him to five, six o’clock, and he gave us extra stuff to do, and it was that guy who really put into our heads that -JJ: Mr. Simon. SS: Mr. Simon, that there was something else out -- JJ: Now, was he African American? SS: No, he’s straight white dude. JJ: Straight white dude? SS: And really serious about education and really serious about teaching us. Those who he had, it was serious. So, our reading scores were two years above what the average was. If I was in the sixth grade, my reading score was eighth grade level because of this guy. It was the first person I heard really talk about how to get into college. It was him. Like, you can actually go ’cause you thought, well, you can’t either afford or you’re not smart enough, but Mr. Simon was like, “Uhuh. You guys are just as smart or [00:06:00] smarter than them white kids ’cause you come from here.” JJ: What was his angle? Was he just liberal-minded, or --? SS: He’s just a liberal dude. JJ: So -- 5 �SS: He was a liberal dude who was stuck in a public school as a elementary school teacher, but he had bigger visions, and we were kinda like his guinea pigs in a lot of ways. And, out of the nine of us who got picked, I think seven of us are doing really well. Seven, eight of us. JJ: Now, he picked you into his own program? SS: It was his own program in the school. JJ: He just made it up. SS: He made it up. He gave us extra books to read. He gave us extra assignments to read, who he felt could handle it because the way that the curriculum was in the school, you did what everybody else did, and he was like, “Uh-uh. These kids -- you could do something else.” So, it made you, when I was in the second, third grade, think about life in a bigger way. You know what I mean? Yeah. That’s what I remember [00:07:00] about the Bronx and just loving it ’cause it was communal, and it’s your family. JJ: [You went home?]. I mean, what about the -- any violence or anything? SS: In my house or just in the neighborhood? JJ: In the neighborhood. SS: Oh, yeah. I mean, the regular bang, bang, shoot ’em up. Regular stuff, and you learned -- JJ: Drugs? SS: Yeah. Violence, drugs. And you get desensitized to it, and maybe I think it’s like -- JJ: What do you mean, desensitized? 6 �SS: You think that that’s normal. So, if they’re shooting, you don’t even blink twice ’cause you think that’s normal. If somebody gets shot, you don’t blink twice because you -- I remember being -- think it was, like, eight or nine. I was coming out of a movies. It was a local movie theater, and we were coming out of the theater, and I distinctly remember this. There was a woman walkin’, coming this way, and we got out the movie, and a car pulled up alongside real slow, which you kinda noticed, and the window rolled down, and I saw the shotgun come out. Boom. [00:08:00] In the side of her head. And I saw it -- and drove off -- and I remember being in shock of seeing something like that, and then not being in shock, that it was like that’s where we’re at. Now, if you think logically, you know, this woman just got shot down, gunned down in the street. And so, you became almost desensitized to it, where you learn to accept it, or this is what our natural existence is. This is how we live. And you learn how to navigate your way through it. You know what I mean? You don’t go here. You go here. You don’t talk to So-and-so. You talk to So-and-so. You need to know all the drug dealers and the drugs so nobody messes with you. I learned that quick, to not speak to people. They don’t know you. If you’re not in a gang or rollin’ with them, if they don’t at least know you, they’re gonna get you, so I made sure I spoke to everybody. [00:09:00] “What’s up? What’s up? What’s up?” Everybody knew me. I knew everybody. They don’t bother you. If you got to fight somebody, you hurt ’em so nobody’ll -- ’cause I didn’t want to fight, so I was like, if I got to do it, I got to hurt you so you don’t have to come near me no more. So, it was -- again, it’s normal violence. I mean, [I don’t wanna?] say normal violence. It’s what you 7 �thought as normal. Somebody gettin’ arrested, or somebody gettin’ shot, or somebody gettin’ thrown off the roof, or somebody OD’ing, that’s what it was. JJ: But you, yourself, never got arrested or --? SS: Nah, ’cause my father grew up in Harlem, and he was a take-no-shit type of dude. He still is. So, he told me -- he said, “Let me tell you something. All you got to do is go to school.” He said, “I’ll clothe you. I’ll feed you. You ain’t got to worry about nothin’.” He said, “All you got to do is go to school.” He said, “Now, you don’t go to school me and you [00:10:00] got a problem.” He said, “If I don’t take care of you, if I don’t do this,” he said, “People do stuff because they don’t have no money or whatever, and, you know -- so, I’ll make sure that you won’t need, but if you --” He said, “If you go to jail or you get strung out on drugs, me and you gonna have a problem.” And I was young. I was, like, eight, and I didn’t know what he was talkin’ about, but he -- JJ: [He was serious?]. SS: He was serious about that. So, the only time me and him had any run-in was school because he’s like, “You’re not stupid. You’re smart, so you can do this backwards and frontwards, so, if you don’t do it, me and you gonna have a problem.” And that’s when -- any time I didn’t do well in school. So, in terms of gettin’ in trouble -- JJ: So, he was [verbal, mostly?]? SS: I mean, yeah. He didn’t really -- I mean, if I got hit, I got hit because of school, but he was a serious dude. It wasn’t like, “Oh, let me see.” No, no, no, no, no, no, no. If he said it -- he’s like, “If I got to come out there with you --” So, I 8 �stayed -- [00:11:00] I mean, I knew everybody, and I had friends of mine who did stuff, but, when it got deep, I was like, “I’m not going with y’all ’cause my father’s [not gonna understand?].” I’m like, “I’m not goin’.” And I didn’t. You know what I mean? I would hang out just enough. You hang out. You drink your wine. You smoke your weed. You hang out with -- but, when it was like, “Oh, we’re gonna go do this,” “See y’all. I’m going home ’cause my father’s not gonna have it.” And my mother was there. My mother was in the house, and she was a housewife. JJ: Is it Patricia? SS: Patricia, yeah. She was a housewife. So, I came home from school. My mother was there. She’d help you with your homework. She’d make sure we would look nice, clothes. Even if we didn’t have nothing ’cause I’m old enough now to -- JJ: [It’s just two?]? SS: And it’s just me and my sister. So, she, the everyday -- JJ: Is she older or younger? SS: She’s younger. So, I was the older one. She made sure we always -- so, we didn’t need anything, and, now that I’m older, I realize that we were poor, but you’d have never known it. Neither one of ’em had any addiction, so it was like [00:12:00] the money my father made, he gave it to my mother, and it was in the house, so we had nice furniture. We had nice clothes, but we were poor. I never went to bed hungry ever. So, all those things that people -- and I have cousins who have done jail time [and that?] ’cause their home life wasn’t stable. My home life was. Like, my father would have his moments where he would be very 9 �aloof, or very distant, or angry at the world and didn’t talk very much, but, in terms of him being in the house, he was there, so I had both of them in there, so I never felt like I had to drift off and do something. They allowed me to be my age. I didn’t have to grow up faster than I needed to grow up. JJ: What kind of work did he do? SS: He did a little bit of everything. He was a cook for Nedick’s for a long time, and then he worked for the railroad, just cleaning out the pipes, and the heating, and ventilation in the train stations for Amtrak. He did that for a long [00:13:00] time, and, now, he’s a security guard. Carried a gun and, you know. JJ: Your mom was -- SS: Nothing. She never worked. She never worked. She stayed home, and my father -- JJ: Was that a religious thing, or --? SS: No. I think we’re more old-fashioned. Not that she couldn’t work. JJ: Okay, so more cultural. SS: Yeah. She just stayed home and raised -- you know what? She was a mother. She was like, “I’m a mother. This is my job.” And she went (makes sound) and zoomed in on us, and, to this day, to even my nephews, my sister’s kids, she is that matriarch. “My job is to be home, make sure the house is right.” JJ: But your father was not into the church or anything like that? SS: He is now. He got saved maybe about 10 years ago, he got saved because he got to a point personally where he just -- he was low. You know, he’s a old street dude from Harlem who had [00:14:00] kids when he was 22 but still kinda wanted 10 �to hang out, and he was a good father, but you can always see he was kinda tortured. Like, he would sit in the living room in my house, and he used to drink. So, I would come home, and, if you heard music playin’, I knew he was sitting in the living room. I’d come to the door, and I hear music. I’d be like, “Oh.” And I opened up the door, and he would be sittin’ there. He’d have his vodka, and he’d be drinking, and he’d see me walk by. “Come in.” I’m like, “Oh.” “Sit down.” And then, he’d start talking, and he would talk about -- he would just talk, and, at that -- I don’t know what he was talking about, but he would just talk, and he would just tell me things and then send me away. And so, that’s how I got to know him in terms of what a tortured man working, trying to make it in the world, living in the projects, and raising a family -- he would say it to me, but, at 15, didn’t know what he was talkin’ about. [00:15:00] But he gave that to me. Like, I completely understand it. I completely know exactly what that is. You know what I mean? So, as I got older and became a man, all these things I began to feel, and experience, and not quite understanding, and being angry about, I can equate it with my father, like, oh, I get it. This is what I’m feeling as a Black man, trying to -JJ: Now, you’re (inaudible) you’re not into a church or anything. SS: I’m not. I’m more spiritual than going to church. I’m just like, you be a good person. You have some sense of spirituality. You know, goin’ back and forth to the church thing, it’s nice, and it’s very admirable, I think, but then you start gettin’ around people -- 11 �JJ: Now, was he in the service, your father, or anything? Where did he get his discipline? SS: Himself. He used to sing when he was a kid, like, 13, 14. He was in a little singing group, but I think he was always that type of dude. JJ: [It was a?] singing group? Singing group? SS: Yeah. He didn’t go to the service. [00:16:00] He’s a really strong dude. You know what I mean? And I think he’s so proud now of me and my sister, how we turned out, ’cause we turned out -- you know, we’re good kids. JJ: What was your sister’s name? [Did we get that?]? SS: Her name is [Patria?]. JJ: Patria? SS: Patria, yeah. And she’s an accountant. JJ: You’re Junior. You’re Junior. SS: I’m Steve Jr., yeah. And we turned out good. We didn’t get in trouble. We were almost, in one sense, boring considering some of my cousins were wild. My cousins were just wild, and always in trouble, and getting arrested, and da, da, da. Me and my sister, you know -- not that we were raised middle class ’cause we were far from it, but the way my mother and father -- mostly my mother -- had the house, the feeling of it, it felt middle class in that apartment in the projects, but we was poor as shit. You know what I mean? But you would have never known it. My cousins used to come to my house for Christmas because we used to get so much -- my mother and father used to save [00:17:00] money all year to 12 �buy us Christmas presents. That’s how those two were disciplined in terms of having a family, so that’s how I grew up, so I didn’t -JJ: So, your parents, in order to keep you in line, had to also attack ghetto life. So, did they do that? SS: My mother never acknowledged -- she would always tell me, “Why you always talk about it like this? This is community. You got your friends.” We weren’t living in the ghetto to her. This is where we live, and this is beautiful. We have family, and there’s a community center, and there’s this, and there’s a movie theater. And my father was out there, you know? He was out. But they didn’t bring it home. My father never brought that element into the house. My mother wouldn’t allow that element into the house, so we didn’t grow up -- JJ: So, he was street-savvy (inaudible). SS: He was street, and he [00:18:00] did his dirt -- JJ: But that was outside [the house?]. SS: It was outside. He didn’t bring it into the house. Only thing he would bring in, he would drink. He would be drunk in the house, but he didn’t bring [dumbness?] into -- he wouldn’t have it. The house was almost his sanctuary. And I appreciated that, that we didn’t have to deal with -- there’s a lot of stuff I know people deal with. I didn’t deal with it in my house. When you go outside, you deal with stuff, but, in terms of when I went home as a kid -- JJ: Now, did you ever see it outside? SS: Oh, yeah. JJ: (inaudible). 13 �SS: My friends. My family. My cousins. They grew up hard. JJ: So, you never saw your father in a negative -- SS: One time, maybe nine or ten, he used to always go to Harlem ’cause he grew up in Harlem, so he would hang out in Harlem, and I was in the barbershop. JJ: You don’t have to answer. I was just -- SS: No, no, no. If it, you know -- and I’m sitting in a barber chair, and I was watching television, and everybody from the barbershop was runnin’ outside. “Where’s everybody runnin’?” [00:19:00] So, I kinda went outside, and there was a big circle, and he was beatin’ this guy half to death in the street, and I remember being so shocked at the violence of it, of where, mentally, he was and how violent it was. It really surprised me. Like, oh -- and how aggressive it was. You know, as a kid, you’re enamored, but I was also very, like, I don’t even know who that is, and it still sticks to me to this day. I don’t know who that was. And I think it bothered him that I saw him like that ’cause I remember him turning and seeing me standing there, and then him -- “I got to go home.” And his hand was, like, this big. It swole up. And he had to take me home, and my mother asked him, “What happened to you?” And him like, “I go into a fight.” “Oh, my God. You got into a fight? [00:20:00] (inaudible).” But he tried to keep that stuff from us, which I appreciate. He never went to jail. None of that stuff. [He’d?] go to the bar, and hang out, and get drunk, and stay out all night long. That’s him. JJ: Okay, so, you got into the -- [what is?] your political thinking (inaudible)? SS: It’s funny you say that. Some cop shot somebody, and it was on the news, and it was in the Bronx, and everybody was up in arms, and this guy stood up, and he 14 �had dreadlocks, and I remember going -- he just looked different, and it said his name. I don’t remember what his name was, but, underneath it, it said “Activist” on it, and the way he spoke -- I was like, “I want to be that.” JJ: Some guy got shot --? SS: Some guy got shot, and [00:21:00] people were protesting, and this guy got on the news, and had the camera in his face, and it had his name, and he had dread-- and it said “Activist,” and I was like, “I don’t know what job that is, but I want to do that,” because he was with the people, and I was just really paying attention to that guy ’cause he wasn’t -- it was something I didn’t know what it was. You know what a teacher is. You know what a cop is. But what’s an activist? ’Cause that’s what it said on the news. And I remember that distinctly, and then I remember paying attention to what was -- I knew shit around where we lived wasn’t right, and that the cops [kept rollin’ us?] wrong, and how we were livin’ was wrong, and rats and roaches is wrong. It’s like I knew it. And so, I would pay attention to the rallies, and I would -- I didn’t necessarily always go, but I would pay attention to -- listening to people talk. My father had this Louis Farrakhan record, and I don’t even know where he got it from, [00:22:00] and I used to play it over and over and just really kind of -- listening to this fervor of people fighting against injustice. And my mother and father wasn’t into it at all, but, to me, I was looking around, going, “If I have to live here or people that I know and love have to live here, it don’t need to be like this.” And you look at TV. It’s like that neighborhood doesn’t look like this, and [how?] -- JJ: And your friends were also political. [I mean?] (inaudible) -- 15 �SS: No. None of them was. That’s just with me. It was just in my head. They really weren’t. I just felt it. I mean, it’s like I grew up, and it was Blacks and Puerto Ricans. That’s what’s in the neighborhood. So, to me, it’s like we’re all in this together, and why is it not -- why are we struggling in here together? And I’m very conscious that there’s only Black and Puerto Ricans here. There’s no white people here. [00:23:00] You know, it’s just Black and Puerto Rican, and we’re smashed on top of each other, and the elevator’s broken, and you got to walk up 14 flights of stairs, and So-and-so got robbed, or somebody got shot, and the ambulance -- takes them five hours to show up. I just knew that shit wasn’t right. JJ: [So, people were?] talking about that. SS: Mm-hmm. I didn’t know how to get involved. JJ: But you were hearing it. SS: Yeah. You were around. I mean, you did see Panther papers. You did see Young L-- you did see it. And we were young, so you would go and look, but, since my mother and father wasn’t into it, I didn’t have enough guts to just -- I’m gonna go by myself and go to this thing. I didn’t do that, but it stuck that there’s something wrong, and there’s people fighting for justice of these conditions that we’re in, and then trying to learn, how do you change it? You know what I mean? There’s congressmen, and [00:24:00] the aldermans, and everybody that you saw around, but it’s like, they’re not really kinda changing things. But that guy who I saw on television, who was an activist -- JJ: You were in high school or grammar school? 16 �SS: Maybe junior high school going into high school when that -- so, when I went into college, it really was real evident. They’re distant, the two different worlds that existed. JJ: As you got into college, are you getting more nationalistic also, or no? (inaudible)? SS: No, no, no. What happened with college was I realized I was a minority. I didn’t realize that when I was in -- when you grow up in the hood, you’re around your folk. You don’t feel like a minority. You hear the word, but it’s like, we’re the majority here. The second I sat in college, it was five black men in the entire campus. I knew what the word was, and it scared me because your first [00:25:00] instinct’s, “I don’t want to be here. I don’t want to be around people don’t want me around.” I’m talking to people that -- they’ve never been around person of color before. They don’t know how to act, but I also know I’m supposed to be here, and I got to figure this out, and I got real angry because I can see the two worlds. I can be in college, Upstate New York, and trees, and da, da, da, da, da, and then get on a train, and ride down two hours, and instantly be back in the projects. In the same day, your world would be like, [flip?]. I’ll tell you something. It was one time I came home from college, and a friend of mine was sittin’ outside who I hung out with, Puerto Rican guy. And he was like, “Yo, come on. Hang out with --” You know, I’m like, “Aw, man, I just got home.” He’s like, “No, come on. Come on. Come on.” So, I’m like, “All right.” Go upstairs. Literally go, “Mom.” I put my bags down. “I’m goin’ out.” She’s like, “Oh.” So, he takes me to Spanish Harlem, where we used to hang out, and [there?] was 17 �this guy named [Mikey?]. Now, [00:26:00] Mikey used to run a lot of cocaine, all that stuff, for all of Spanish Harlem, and he owned this tenement building, and he had an apartment on the top, and all the other apartments -- you can rent a room for a girl while you smoke or -- so, we’d kinda go, and smoke, and hang out, and drink wine. And so, this particular time, everyone was hangin’ out in Mikey’s house, which you really didn’t do. So, I come, [and I sit down, and?] he knew me. Like, “What’s up? What’s up?” We’re drinking. We’re smoking. And he comes in the room, and he’s like, “Well, you know --” Looks at me. He goes, “The shipment’s comin’ in. You cool with that?” And I’m like, yeah, cool. I’m trying to be like, “Yeah.” And they’re bringing -- so, I’m sitting there, going, “Oh, shit.” ’Cause, two hours ago, I was just in Upstate New York. So, I’m sittin’ there, and I’m watchin’ all this kinda go on. I’m trying to be cool. So, about halfway through the night, I can see Mikey [00:27:00] lookin’ at me from across the room, not really sayin’ nothing, and I’m like, “Uh.” So, finally, after about an hour of him literally staring at me, I said, “What’s up, man?” He goes, “Come here for a second.” He’s like, “What you doin’ in here?” I’m like, “What? I’m hangin’ out.” He’s like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The fuck are you doin’ in here?” I’m like, “Mikey, what’s the matter? I’m just hangin’ out.” He goes, “Don’t you go to college?” I’m like, “Yeah.” He’s like, “You in college?” I’m like, “Yeah.” He goes, “I’m not sayin’ you better than us, but you ain’t got no business in here. Real shit happens in here. You understand?” I’m like, “Yeah.” He goes, “I don’t want to see you in here no more. Don’t come in here no more.” I’m like, “What? I’m hanging out.” He’s like, “Don’t come here no more. You come up in here, if 18 �you come in my building, we’re gonna have problems.” Like, “Okay.” And I always respected that. I got it, [00:28:00] what he meant. And then -JJ: He was (inaudible). SS: I mean, he was a older dude, and we didn’t -- that’s the first time he ever talked to me directly, and I got it, and, for some reason, it bothered him that -- he knew I was in college, and that -- my friend who took me there, had to cut him off, and it hurt me to my heart, and, to this day, my mother’s like, “I can’t believe you’re not friends with him.” Because he was my good friend, and he was slidin’ into that world, and, you know, when you got your friend, you gonna be slidin’ right there with him. If he’d got into some trouble and something would have happened, he would have called me, and I would have went, and I was like, “I can’t. I can’t roll like that. I can’t do it.” I got in college as a chance to do something else. I can’t roll with you. He’s -- “Come on, man. We --” And crack had just came out, and I was like, “I can’t. I can’t.” He offered me a chance. He goes, “You could be the runner. All you [00:29:00] do is just pick up the money. That’s all you got to do. We’ll pay you.” For a second, I was like, “Well, you know, I’m in college. I could use the extra money.” He goes, “Yeah, but you got to carry this nine millimeter ’cause, you know.” I was like, “(inaudible).” He said, “Why won’t you carry it?” I said, “Because I will shoot somebody.” You know what I mean? It’s like you’re gonna shoot somebody. So, I had to leave all them alone and really focus on -got a opportunity. I’m in school, you know? I don’t know what the hell I’m gonna do with myself, but I’m in school. It’s a chance to do somethin’, and I’m gonna do that. 19 �JJ: (inaudible) your studies, and you’re in theatre, or --? SS: Yeah. I studied theatre and writing, yeah. JJ: Why did you get into that? SS: Writing was -- I always did it when I was a kid, and I was in college, and they asked me -- [the dean was?] like, “Why don’t you take a acting class?” All right. And I liked it, and I wanted perform, but you just don’t -- that doesn’t relate to where we’re from. [00:30:00] So, in one sense, I was doing it because I enjoyed it, thinking I’ll eventually have to stop and figure somethin’ else out so I can get a job, and I just never stopped, you know? And my mother would tell people that I was studying journalism to be a writer for the newspaper ’cause she didn’t want to tell people that, “My son’s studying to be a writer, and he’s doing theatre.” You can’t get a job doing that, but that’s what I liked. JJ: So, she didn’t want you in theatre? SS: No, ’cause where are you gonna work? Where are you gonna work? Who do you know that does theatre? Nobody. How you gonna make a living? Her whole big thing was, “You need to come home, and you’re gonna get a city job.” They had all these jobs opening up for the railroad, for transit. She said, “When you get out of college, you’re gonna take the transit test. You’re in college, so you’re gonna have a college degree. You can be runnin’ the trains. You can be a supervisor ’cause you have a college degree, and you’ll be set.” [00:31:00] And she had already had that picked in her mind for me, that that’s what I was gonna do, and I was like, “I can’t do that.” So, I didn’t come back. I stayed Upstate. 20 �JJ: Now, you were meeting other people like meeting Mildred at that time? SS: I met Mildred in college. She auditioned for a play of mine. JJ: Oh, she auditioned for a play of yours? SS: Mm-hmm. I was a director, and she -- JJ: So, how did you get to that point? SS: Of what? JJ: To do plays. SS: Well, you know, when you become a senior, they let you create your own -- JJ: Senior? SS: Yeah, when I became a senior in college. Because, since I was one of the only Black men in the theatre department, when they gave me a play to do, I was usually running from something ’cause all the roles for Black people were racist. So, I told them, whatever play y’all pick, I don’t want to do it because I don’t want to be a runnin’ slave. I don’t want to do it. Can I create my own thing? And they were like, well, yeah. You can do whatever you want. So, they left me [00:32:00] alone. So, the play I wrote was about a kid -- JJ: What college was this? SS: Bard College. JJ: Bard, right. SS: Upstate New York. And I wrote a piece about pretty much a character that was myself, who was from the inner city, who goes to a predominantly white school, and the two worlds he has to bounce in between to survive, and I called it Purgatory. You didn’t know which place was heaven, which place was hell. And 21 �Mildred walked in the room. She was a freshman, and I was sittin’ there, and she walked in the room, and I was like, “Okay.” And I leaned over to the guy who was my assistant, and I said, “That girl can [stand?] anything right now, and I’m gonna put her in the show,” and I kinda sat back, and she started singing. I was like, “Okay, cool. Good. She can sing.” But we related to each other ’cause we both came from -- she come from the Lower East Side. I was from the Bronx. We were in a predominantly white school. Both our parents are working class people, and here we are, two people trying to figure it out, and we just gravitated toward each other, and we had a sense of community. We had a sense of [00:33:00] family. Like I said, I grew up with Black and Puerto Ricans, so, you know, she’s Puerto Rican. It was like -- my father speaks Spanish. He learned Spanish on the street, so he speaks Spanish. So, when I met Mildred’s family, it felt like family. You know what I mean? My best friend who was taking me around in Spanish Harlem was Puerto Rican, and I was always at his house. So, my connection to Puerto Rican culture is -- it’s part of me. You know what I mean? JJ: So, [was your best friend in theatre also, or?] --? SS: No. He’s the one that stayed. He stayed back, and -- JJ: Stayed back. SS: And got caught up into drugs, sellin’ stuff, got arrested, and went in and out of jail, and I stayed in college. JJ: [So, now, you have?] all these other friends that are in theatre. 22 �SS: You start to meet people up in college. You’re meetin’ different type of people, and it was kinda, like, who you actually like, and they come from different worlds, and they come from different financial brackets. I mean, I had a friend of mine whose [00:34:00] father was Arthur Rankin, who used to make the claymation cartoons like Frosty the Snowman, and it says “Rankin and Bass.” His stepfather was Rankin. So, he had -- it was like money, money, money, money, money, money, money. It was just a different group of people you’re around, and, once I started meetin’ different people, it’s like, okay. Having access to other worlds is like -- how do you get access to that and still stay true to yourself without changing? You grow up, but I was like, “I’m still Steve from the Bronx, but I want to be Steve from the Bronx --” JJ: So, you always thought about that. [You wanted] to remain true to yourself. SS: Mm-hmm. I was very -- JJ: Not changing -- what didn’t you want to change? SS: I didn’t want to deny the fact that I was from the Bronx. I didn’t want to deny the fact that there was elements of my childhood which was rough, hard, and raw. I didn’t want to deny the fact that -- but I [00:35:00] also learned how to be able to go in a classroom, and talk this way, and be around this, and can go home, and hang out, and be cool with everybody else. How do you take this, the rhythms, the essence of where we’re from, or community, our culture, and bring that with you? You don’t have to leave it there, and go to college, and -- you bring that with you. So, even the work that we do, theatre, I wanted to bring who we were, the people who I know, Ray Barretto and Marvin Gaye, with me to college, not 23 �leave it there. So, I would always say, “I’m Steve from the Bronx,” and whatever your interpretation of the Bronx was, that’s how you took me. If you thought that people from the Bronx were gangsters and them -- all right. Then that’s what you think I am. ’Cause, you know, they would think that. “Oh, have you ever been in a gang before?” They would ask me that in college. “Have you ever been shot?” I was like, “Is that what you think? You watch TV?” It’s like, yeah. I know some people who been in gangs. I’ve seen people get shot. [00:36:00] And? Does that make any difference while we’re both sitting in this college together? You know. JJ: You got your degree in theatre. What was the first play that you [performed?]? (inaudible) [your character?]? SS: Yeah. I mean, I did that in college -- JJ: And after that. SS: And then, after that, I didn’t do theatre for five years. Got a job, but we were workin’ in the community, teachin’ reading and math at this community center, Mildred and I together. And then -- JJ: Now, were you married then? SS: No, we weren’t married. We were living together. We weren’t married. JJ: (inaudible). SS: And that was our job, and -- JJ: So, you had a community center, so -- SS: We didn’t have it. We worked at one. JJ: Oh, you worked at one. 24 �SS: And then, what happened -- JJ: (inaudible) [like an activist?]. SS: Yeah. It wasn’t really -- it was social service. It wasn’t active -- it was more social service. And then, our funding cycle was ending, and it wasn’t being refunded, so we were about to all get laid off, and this other guy [00:37:00] we knew said, “Why don’t we start our own center?” And I was like, “What?” “Start our own center, man.” And I was like, “And get paid how? Like, how we gonna eat?” “We can do this. We can do this. You do theatre. Why don’t we, like, have a theater?” I was like, “In the South Bronx, we gonna have a theater?” He’s like, “Yeah.” So, we were like, “All right.” So, we found this abandoned bagel factory in the Bronx, and the landlord who owned that bagel factory, abandoned bagel factory, owned the same building that we were in, working, so we kinda knew him, so we went to him and was like, “Look. [We want?] to start this theater slash center-type thing.” And he was like, “Uh-huh.” He’s like, “Could you give us, like, a year’s free rent? And we will renovate your space, and, if we don’t get this place up and running in a year, you can have a renovated space.” And he said, “All right. Deal.” So, he gave us a year free rent, and we proceeded to go in that building. We cleaned it all out. People from the community [00:38:00] started giving us screws, and we literally renovated that building in a year. Put a theater in there. We had businesses. We had a restaurant, a barbershop, dance studio, record store, all owned by people from the community. And then, we put in -- it was a social service agency called [Unitas?], and they were the big sort of tenants that we had. They paid the bulk 25 �of the rent, and we ran that building, and, out of that, I started doing theatre again because I had a theater that we built, and we did that for -- we opened in ’93. And it’s funny. Yomo Toro just died. The opening night of the theater, we had all these people come over, and Mildred started singing a song, and Yomo Toro was there, and he walked up on stage and started -- Mildred was singing “[Preciosa?],” and he started playing with her, and I’ll never forget that moment of her turning around and seeing Yomo Toro standing in the South Bronx, [00:39:00] in this building we had just built, playing cuatro behind -- and he was so nice and so cool, and he hung out all night long, and it felt so special because we created our love, which was theatre and art, and brought this back to Bronx, basically, and it was a beautiful thing we had there. It was really beautiful, amazing. We had poetry nights, and Latin jazz nights, and gay men in the Bronx rented a space, and the Ñetas, the Kings, and Zulu Nation came to me to ask me, could they have their meetings in the building? And I was like, “Oh, Jesus Christ.” So, I said, “Well, we got to talk about it.” So, Bam says, “Okay.” So, Bam sets up a meeting, and I go in the theater, and it’s Bam -- it wasn’t King Tone, but it was somebody from the Kings, someone from the Ñetas, all in the building at the same time, talking, discussing whether [00:40:00] Zulu was gonna come to [their?] section of the Bronx, and I walk in the room, and they’re like, “Steve, talk about this.” And there’s like 200 brothers in the room from all different sides, and I just kinda got up and was like, “Look. This is my building. This is our building here. I’m willing to give y’all space, but y’all can’t be up in here acting crazy. I can’t have it. Kids come here during the day. Like, I really 26 �can’t have it.” So, we had that type of environment, and it was amazing. It was a really beautiful thing, to see that mixture of me turning into an activist, which I always remembered, and doing theatre with it in the Bronx, you know. JJ: And who was paying the bills? SS: The first year, we were on unemployment, and I was teachin’, like, poetry classes on the side, but, once it was really up and running, yeah, that was our life. JJ: For a few years, or --? SS: It was our life for seven years, and then it got -- our relationship with [00:41:00] our two partners got real funky, and it’s a longer story, but we left, and we were -the only thing we had was Universes. JJ: So, you had started Universes [in that?] --? SS: We started, and that became a issue to the building. Like, “Oh, you guys are making money on the side.” Like, “We ain’t makin’ no money on the side. We’re doing Universes ’cause it’s fun.” And, to them, it got -- ’cause we started to get a little name for ourselves, but you don’t make any money. Somebody paid us 100 dollars. I was like, it was five of us. We split 100 dollars. But they got really threatened, and it became this whole, big thing. And so -- JJ: So, what was the play that you did then? SS: We did something called The Ride, and it was in this downtown, funky, New York -- JJ: The Rise? SS: The Ride. JJ: The Ride, okay. 27 �SS: R-I-D-E. Some funky play we did. You know, just us kinda just putting stuff together. But what happened was there was a space called PS 122, Performance Space 122, which is really known in the New York Downtown performance scene. The guy who runned it saw us [00:42:00] and booked us. He came up to the POINT, and he saw us -- which is the name of our center, and he saw us before we left and booked Universes that night, and he took us to this performance space. JJ: The center was on what streets? SS: My or --? JJ: This POINT. SS: The POINT was in Hunts Point, Barretto and Manida Street. Hunts Point and Manida. JJ: Hunts Point, okay. SS: And -- JJ: And this is the Bronx. SS: This is the Bronx. And then, this guy came up from Manhattan, saw us, and took us to his space, and that’s how we started getting a bigger name for ourselves, because this guy saw us and thought we were really interesting. And so, when we left the POINT, we just focused all of our energies on making Universes work. JJ: So, you did The Ride, and what other --? SS: We did The Ride, and then our first big hit -- we did this play called Slanguage, which -- that was in 2001. JJ: And what was that about? 28 �SS: That was about the evolution of language in our communities is what it was about. So, how you go from slang to how Puerto Rican and Spanish people learn English -- [00:43:00] it was a sort of just thing -- poetry and music, but it was all about how we learn language, how we use language, how we flip language, how you don’t say autobus. You say guagua. You know, it’s like the way people from the hood take language and flip it, and it was a big hit. The New York Times came, and reviewed our show, and was like, “This is an amazing theatre company,” and, instantly, like that, since the New York Times said it, we became this theatre company. JJ: So, that was, like, your first promotional -- SS: Yeah, and we got a lot of -- JJ: -- [thing was?] the New York Times? SS: Yeah, and we toured for eight years with that show. JJ: Slanguage? SS: Like, we were colleges, performance spaces. We were just everywhere, and we weren’t makin’ a ton of money, but we were touring, and that’s all we did. We didn’t take a job. We did Universes. JJ: Now, did you look up to other groups? I mean, did you have [00:44:00] some -- SS: Well, there’s a group -- JJ: -- [type of?] role models? SS: There’s a group called Culture Clash. JJ: Culture Clash? 29 �SS: Culture Clash. They’re out of LA. They’re Chicano, but they are -- I can’t even -they’re like vaudevillian actors from the neighborhood. You know what I mean? And they were so talented, and we just, like, “Those dudes are it.” But, really, for us, it was like musicians we looked up to, poets, Amiri Baraka, Pedro Pietri out of New York, (inaudible) movement. We came out o’ that. So, that’s like Miguel Algarín, all of those people downtown. Mikey Piñero. That’s where we come from. We were, like, the next generation right after them. So, all of our early stuff [Universes working?], we’re in the poetry scene. We weren’t really doing theatre. We were all in the poetry scene and open mikes. So, that’s where our heroes were. Sandra María Esteves, Willie Perdomo. They really shaped us, criticized [00:45:00] us, pushed us, and we got our -- what we do, our swagger, at the Nuyorican. JJ: And what about before (inaudible)? Were there some other plays? SS: No. It was Slanguage, and then Mildred and I did another play called Eyewitness Blues about a trumpet player, and then we did Ameriville. JJ: And how did that [come about?]? SS: Ameriville came about -- we were tryin’ to write something about the history of fear in America. We were tryin’ to write a play. And, in the middle of trying to write about the history of fear in America, Katrina happened, and, sitting there, looking at how the country responded, just the whole thing around it, it was just like -- so, we wrote this piece, the opening 10-minute piece of Ameriville, about that, and that’s all we were gonna write. And then, our director who we were working with at the time heard that piece and said, “This is your show. You 30 �should write it about what happened in New Orleans and then [00:46:00] open it out to the whole country.” So, we were like, all right. Whatever. We didn’t want to do it, but we opened it out, and it turned into something. He was right. Something really, we thought, smart. So, we did that, and that became a big hit. JJ: Now, what about Party People, (inaudible) that you performed today? SS: Party People was -- Oregon Shakespeare Festival here has a separate slot that they call the American Revolutions cycle, where they commissioned 22 writers to write about moments of change in American history. When we first premiered Ameriville in Louisville, Kentucky, the people who were in charge of American Revolutions came to Kentucky, and saw us, and said, “We want you guys to write one.” So, we were like, “Okay, cool. What do you --?” And he was like, “Could you write about the Bill of Rights? Could you write about the Declaration of Independence?” And we were like, “That’s not really interesting.” They said, “Well, you guys can write about whatever you want.” So, we went, and we [00:47:00] sat and thought about -- if you think about American revolution, what’s American revolution to us? And we were gonna keep it real. We were like, really, the Black Panther and the Young Lords, really. JJ: And that comes from your Bronx -- SS: That comes from my Bronx upbringing, Mildred being in the Lower East Side. We were always around it. JJ: The Young Lords and the Black Panthers. SS: The Young Lords and the Black -- so, we felt like that’s -- JJ: Seeing it personally. 31 �SS: Seeing it personally and being recipients of the programs, of free breakfast -- we saw it -- of the garbage pick-ups, in New York, at least, and Lincoln Hospital. I grew up really close to Lincoln Hospital, so it was like I know -- I saw it. I remember what Lincoln Hospital [was before?], and then I remember it afterwards. So, we were like, “If we’re really gonna write about somethin’, we should do --” And we were gonna be honest to ourselves. [It’s that?]. And we don’t know how we’re gonna do it, but that’s what we should write about, and, when we told them, they were like, “Okay. Go ahead.” And then, that’s when we started trying to find people. That’s how we found you, [00:48:00] ’cause we were like, “Well, we’re just gonna start --” ’Cause we knew that we had access to the New York chapter of the Young Lords, so we were like, “We’re not gonna call them. We need to go to the source.” So, we were like, “We got to go to Chicago, and we have to find Cha-Cha.” That was our main -- was like, “Well, who do we know who knows him?” “I don’t know,” you know. And so, Mildred literally looked and called you, but we knew we had to go -- we went to you, and then we went to Oakland. We didn’t talk to anybody [to?] New York ’til, like, last, really. We said, “We have to go to the sources of both, not here. That’s too easy. We have to know exactly where it comes from.” And you just happened to pick up the phone, and that started that process, and what we learned from that process, hangin’ out with you that first time, and then going to Oakland and getting that -you know what I mean? And then bringin’ that here and then working it into a play. JJ: [00:49:00] So, the play’s about what? Can you kind of describe it a little bit? 32 �SS: It’s about two young -- I will call them -- one is a cub, Panther cub, and the other one is the nephew of a Young Lord who grew up in New York -- and them trying to decipher all of the history and make sense out of it but in their way now. So, it’s a little misguided, and they’re trying to put an event together and invite some Panthers and Lords together for this thing. Now, us doing our research, we’ve discovered -- which I kinda knew -- is certain people can’t be in a room together. There’s history there. So, we were like, “Well, what happens is we put people in a room together?” We saw footage one day when we were doing research -- we were lookin’ online, and we found -- I think it was the fortieth anniversary of the New York chapter, and they were all in this back room, and they said, “And, now, Young Lords.” And the door opened, and [00:50:00] you can see people coming out of the back, but people’s faces -- some people were smiling. Some people weren’t smiling. You can see that something went on in the back, and I remember thinking, what went on in the back? I want to know what that conversation was. And so, when we started to talk to people and see the complexity of what relationships are, and how some shit that got said 25 years ago, people didn’t get over it, or people got history, or were COINTELPRO, and you just don’t know who is who, [to be like?], well, what happens if you throw some people back in the mix together who haven’t seen each other in a while? What comes out in the conversations? Being orchestrated by these two kids who know and totally have no idea what they’re doing, but they’re trying to figure it out. And so, they’re taking what they learned, and they flip it to the elders, and the elders respond, or they get taken to different places, and different things 33 �[flash?]. That’s what the play’s about, but [00:51:00] it’s -- for me, I wanted to show -- I didn’t want to romanticize the ’60s, and what I mean by that is I wanted to talk to or see characters who [comprise the?] Young Lords and Panthers now. Like, I remember when we met you and just what it was like talking to an older gentleman. We weren’t talking to the Cha-Cha in the papers. We were talking to a man who’s already lived a long life and what your perspective was on that life. So, it was like, that’s interesting to me. That’s who the American public needs to know, what they went through, what their sacrifice was for this life. If you romanticize the ’60s in this -- you know, you see Black, and white, and people with berets on, and it looks very sexy, but it’s like, no, you see somebody who’s gone through this, and they’ve had this happen, and this happen, and this happen, and they’re still here, and they’re trying to make sense of all the stuff they’ve gone through. So, you’ve got that complexity with these two kids, trying to figure out [00:52:00] what it is smashed together. That’s what this play’s about. JJ: Okay. And it’s gonna play here for -- SS: It’s gonna play here ’til November 3, and then we’ll see what happens. There’s a lot of theaters comin’ to check it out. New York, Chicago, Berkeley, LA, you know, they’re all coming down, so you hope they like it. So -- JJ: Okay. Any concluding thoughts? SS: I am proud of the work that Universes does as a company. I’m proud of the fact that we’re very honest with ourself about what we wanted to tell in this type of story. I’m proud of the research that we did, that we actually went and talked to 34 �folk, and that we had the guts to bring it to an American stage, and it’s very complicated. It’s not an easy thing to sit and watch. It’s not very celebratory all the time. [00:53:00] Everybody gets sort of exposed in their own way. It’s a very complicated issue, but I’m very proud of the fact that we went for it. You know what I mean? And I hope for the world to see this, to learn who you guys are the way we do as human being that are very complex and very interesting. And what you guys did is a part of American history, period. You know what I mean? American history is not just reserved for -- like, this is a part of American history, an important part of American history that, if you remove it, there’s a lot of things that would not be here if this did not happen, and we laid claim to that, and I’m proud that we did it. JJ: [I’m?] very grateful (inaudible). SS: Thank you. Thank you. END OF AUDIO FILE 35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4bf6da83ee69a2bbe9d28dbcbdea55a.mp4 1ed832e4c6e6f3bd1d06f984a8d71aae Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Steven Sapp vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Partido Pantera Negra Artes, Afro-Americanos--Nueva York (N.Y.) Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Sapp_Steven Title A name given to the resource Steven Sapp video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sapp, Steven Description An account of the resource Steven Sapp was born and raised in South Bronx, New York City. He earned his BA degree at Bard College and is married to Mildred Ruiz-Sapp of the Universes Theatre Ensemble. Together, Mr. Sapp and Ms. Ruiz-Sapp co-founded THE POINT, a community development corporation (Hunts Point) in 1993 and Universes, a New York-based theatre group that fuses poetry, jazz, hip hop, politics, blues and Spanish boleros to create its own productions which are performed on and off Broadway, nationally and internationally. Mr. Sapp has received numerous awards for his acting and has written, acted in, and directed scores of productions. One of his most recent productions is “Party People” (2012) which is primarily about the Black Panther Party and the Young Lords. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Black Panther Party Arts, African American--New York (N.Y.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-08 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d466a6fb7980690e39bb60bc6004ee3c.pdf bff996b217d648f2b5fafd80ad8bf82d PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: William Ruiz Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/7/2012 Biography and Description William “Ninja” Ruiz is the brother of Mildred Ruiz-Sapp of Universes and they grew up in New York City on the Lower East Side. He earned his B.A. in Theatre at Bard College where he also studied poetry. Today he makes his home in Santurce, Puerto Rico and is a leading member of the Universes Theatre Ensemble. Universes is a New York-based theatre group that fuses poetry, jazz, hip hop, politics, blues and Spanish boleros to create its own productions which are performed on and off Broadway, nationally and internationally. One of their most recent productions is “Party People” (2012) which is primarily about the Black Panther Party and the Young Lords. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Can you give me your name, (inaudible) --? WILLIAM RUIZ: My name is William Ruiz, a.k.a. Ninja. March 24, 1979. I was born in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. JJ: Okay. (break in audio) JJ: Okay, Ninja. If you can give me your name, where you were born, and what year. WR: All right. My name is William Ruiz, a.k.a. Ninja. I was born on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, March 24, 1979, Bellevue Hospital, and I was raised in the Jacob Riis Projects on FDR Drive and 10th Street, and my father was a janitor at Bellevue Hospital, where I was born, and my mother was a home attendant at Pedro Albizu Campos Plaza. JJ: What’s that? Home attendant, what is that? WR: She’s a home attendant. She used to take care [00:01:00] of an old lady and help her with her daily life. She used to feed her in the morning, make sure she was bathed. She would take her to her doctor’s appointments and all that and just make sure that, you know, the lady was taken care of. I went through the whole public school system. I dropped out in ninth grade and then got back into high school very next semester, so I dropped out for a summer, but I didn’t get a high school diploma. I got a high school equivalency diploma from Satellite Academy on Forsyth Street. And then after I finished that, I graduated and I went 1 �to college at Bard College, which is Upstate New York, and, there, I studied theatre. And then, the year after I graduated, I joined up with the theatre ensemble known as Universes, [00:02:00] and I’ve been touring with them -JJ: What year was that? WR: That was 2005. I got with them and I ran with them on that first show called Slanguage, which was about the evolution of slang in the hood and the way that we speak. Even though it wasn’t an accepted language by society, we accepted it as our way of communicating with each other. To us, it was the accepted language, was to use words that are metaphorically linked to ideas. And then, in 2008, we - Universes, the crew that I joined - were sent out as ambassadors of culture for the United States by the US State Department and Jazz at Lincoln Center, and they sent us to Morocco, Tunisia, Romania, Turkey, Amsterdam, and London, and we [00:03:00] basically went out and performed for predominantly Muslim communities in each of those countries. And then, in 2009, we premiered a play called Ameriville in Louisville, Kentucky, which was about the way America and Americans reacted to Hurricane Katrina, you know, and everybody had mixed reactions to that, and that’s what we documented in that play. And, just today, July 7 -- what is today? 2012, we premiered our new show called Party People, which is about the effects on today’s communities by the Young Lords and the Black Panther Party and the Rainbow Coalition. So, that premiered today, and we’re gonna have a good, long run of it here in Ashland, Oregon, and then, hopefully, it’ll tour [00:04:00] around the country ’cause it’s a message that everybody needs to hear. This is history that’s quickly falling by 2 �the wayside, and not much has changed in our society, so it’s stuff that we need to always know about where we’ve been. That way, we can know where we’re trying to go in the future. JJ: How many brothers and sisters did you have? WR: I grew up in a apartment with three siblings. I had my younger brother, [Emanuel?], my sister, [Jeanie?] -- both of my sisters are older than me. Jeanie and [Mildred?], and both of our parents who worked, and worked, and worked, and finally, two years ago, retired, and they moved back to Puerto Rico. JJ: What town were they from? WR: They were from Lares, Puerto Rico, right? Both of them were from the same barrios. My father was from Callejones. [00:05:00] I’m not really sure where my mother was, but close by, and they didn’t meet each other until -- you know, when their families moved to the Lower East Side. My mother was 12, or 13, or something like that. My father was 15, I think. And then, the Lower East Side, they met at Pitt Pool on Houston Street and Pitt, and they met there, and fell in love, and they’ve been together ever since. And then, they just retired. My father just retired and moved right back to his old town in Callejones, and that’s -we’re all real proud of that, you know, that we made it back. And then, I moved -- JJ: Where was -- I’m sorry. [Go ahead?]. WR: I moved back to Puerto Rico four years ago as a result of gentrification in the Lower East Side. I could no longer afford to live there because NYU is expanding, and Columbia is expanding, [00:06:00] so all those slums that we come from, which wasn’t a good way to live, but that was our home, that kinda 3 �got all -- it all got bought up by NYU, so, now, that’s, like, student housing and places for them to hang out, and it’s all gettin’ renovated so that they could have a place to be, but we are gettin’ pushed out farther and farther. So, I wound up, after I graduated from college, renting a tenement apartment in Brooklyn for 1,050 a month when, four years before that, they was goin’ for, like, 200, 600 dollars a month. Nothing changed. They’re still the slums. They just cost more now. So, I did that for a year. JJ: Now, was this area Spanish, or --? WR: That was Bed-Stuy. JJ: Okay. I’m not -- WR: Bedford-Stuyvesant. JJ: I’m not familiar with (inaudible). WR: Yeah. It’s mixed. It’s Black, Puerto Rican, Dominican, Mexican, and Black is general ’cause there’s Black Puerto Ricans, Black [00:07:00] Dominicans, and Black Mexicans, so, you know, it’s everybody that is fighting for a crumb from the pot but ain’t gettin’ nothin’. That’s what was living there. But we were paying top dollar to live in the slums, and I couldn’t do that anymore, so I moved to Puerto Rico, where I had heard all these stories from my parents while I was growing up, how great it was, how you never starve there. If you’re hungry, you just pick fruits from the trees. We got chickens and everything, and I went there with that mentality of Puerto Rico back in the ’50s, basically, and that’s not what I found there. What I found was hood that was worse than the hood I was from. It was more kill or be killed -- 4 �JJ: [This is where in?] Puerto Rico? WR: Santurce. JJ: Santurce. WR: I live in Santurce, home of the Cangrejeros. JJ: [Oh, the?] Cangrejeros. [Was it a crab?] -- WR: It was a crabbing community way back in the day. Now, you know, you can still eat crabs there, but that’s now what they’re known for. [00:08:00] Now, they’re known for their access to the tourism that goes on in Old San Juan. All the people who work in Old San Juan, can’t afford to live in Old San Juan, live in Santurce or surrounding areas. So, that’s where I’m living now, and life is actually a lot harder. Even though people think of Puerto Rico, they think of a paradise, that’s not necessarily the case for everybody. The income is much smaller than the income earned in the United States. You can get by on less. The apartment that I live in in Puerto Rico is twice the size of any apartment I’ve ever seen in New York. I live four blocks from the beach. It’s beautiful. There’s always foliage on the trees. It’s never winter, but, you know, it’s -- JJ: Why did you choose? What was the reason -- you said because of what your parents were telling you [00:09:00] about Puerto Rico? WR: Yeah. It’s every Nuyorican kid’s dream to go back to Puerto Rico, and the reason it’s our dream is because of the way that our parents talk about it, with the nostalgia, you know, remembering the good old days. They were children back in those days. Anybody who was a kid remembers their childhood days, no matter where you’re from, with nostalgia. My son was born in Puerto Rico, and, 5 �one day, he’s gonna want to move to New York, thinking of the New York that I left behind, and, if he does that, he’s gonna realize it’s not his home, and that’s how I’ve come to realize Puerto Rico is not my home. Even though I live there now, I’ve lived there for the past four years, it’s like growing a cactus in the jungle, man. It’s not right. There’s something not right about it. I don’t click. I don’t -JJ: So, your home -- WR: -- fit in there. JJ: Your home is New York? WR: Nah, man. New York is not my home no more. New York is not the place I [00:10:00] left behind. New York belongs to other people now. I am a vagabond. JJ: That’s because of gentrification? WR: I live all over the place now. JJ: [You mean?] gentrification? WR: It was gentrification. That’s what forced me to move out, and now, when I go back and I visit my old neighborhood, it’s not the same neighborhood I left behind. It’s a lot cleaner, and there’s a lot less of us there. JJ: Okay. Now, you got into play, and acting, and all that, and drama school, and all that -- WR: Well -- JJ: What was shaping your mind to get into that? WR: I didn’t know I was gonna wind up being a actor. I was always a poet and a rapper, but then, when I got to college, I realized -- 6 �JJ: How did you get into that? WR: Well, when I got to college, I realized that I didn’t have enough education to succeed in any of the departments, but I was always a class clown when I was in public school. So, when I got to college, the only way I could use that skill was in the theatre department. To be a class clown was acceptable in the [00:11:00] theatre department. It meant that I wasn’t afraid of gettin’ up, and voicing my opinions, and actin’ a fool in front of everybody. So, I did pretty good in the theatre department. And then, after I graduated, Mildred, and Steve, and Flaco, and Lemon, and Jamal had this thing going with Universes, where they were blending poetry, and theatre, and music and making shows out of that. And so, they asked me to audition, so I did, and they let me run with them, and it was -you know, I do theatre because it is what I’m capable of doing, not because it’s the path that I’ve chosen. JJ: So, you’re a clown in school, and then -- WR: And I couldn’t read. I couldn’t read. JJ: [You couldn’t read?]. WR: I couldn’t do math, and I got accepted into this college because I did a great interview. I impressed them. I was smart. Just because I couldn’t read and I couldn’t do math didn’t mean [00:12:00] I wasn’t smart. I could watch a nature show, and I absorbed it all quickly. I could hear stories and absorb things really fast, so I was able to contribute in conversations. But then, when I realized that I couldn’t do well in my tests in college, I couldn’t read analytically, I couldn’t break down a book -- you know, I would read a book and get stuck on, like, three words 7 �and wouldn’t be able to finish the book. So, then, the next day, when I would get to the class, and the class is discussing the book, I’ll hear what a student is saying, and I jump off of that, off of my own experience, like I had read the book. So, I was -JJ: (inaudible). WR: -- talkin’ like I knew, but I was -- JJ: But what was the reason? I mean, was it something internally, or -- I mean, [or was it?] --? WR: I was doing well in college not because of what I was reading and learning there. I was doing well in college because I had [00:13:00] absorbed so much growing up in New York, and I related that to my professors and to my peers. Peers is a funny word ’cause they weren’t my peers. They were just the same age as me. JJ: Tell me a little bit about New York. I know [you kinda stopped, and we’re gonna get back?]. WR: All right. JJ: What I’m trying to find out is what was it like? I mean, you said you were absorbing stuff. What was it like growing up there? WR: All right. In New York, what I noticed all the way from kindergarten to high school, all my teachers were Jewish. All the students were either Puerto Rican, Dominican, or Black of some sort, so the teachers never related to us and looked down on us. I never had a teacher that could speak Spanish. I never had a teacher that knew what -- JJ: You say they looked down on you. How? 8 �WR: They [00:14:00] didn’t expect us to do well. You know, it was a factory. School was a student factory. That’s what it was. They were just crankin’ us out, givin’ us whatever grades. It didn’t matter. They were just putting us through, saying, ”Okay. We’ve got this many students coming in this year. Get ’em all through.” So, I didn’t learn much. The way the public school system in New York was run wasn’t -- they weren’t trying to ensure that we learned everything we could learn. They were trying to make sure that the numbers were right. Test scores were, on an average, 65 to 75. That’s fine. And the teachers had 30 students. Twenty-five of them made it to the next grade, that’s fine. That’s all that mattered. The teachers weren’t connecting with us. They weren’t teaching us things that were useful to us. They weren’t teaching us how to use our money wisely. They weren’t teaching us how to start a career for ourselves. What they were teaching us [00:15:00] instead was how to work for people. They weren’t teaching us about credit cards, about how to not get into debt, or how to use a credit card and maintain a balanced budget. They weren’t teaching us things that were useful to us. They were teaching us things that kept us as a cog in a machine. You know, they were teaching us how to find a job. Oh, they encouraged us to get jobs in McDonald’s, which makes sense, right? Get a job in McDonald’s. JJ: [Literally, they told you?] -- WR: No. Why not teach a kid how to create something when they’re open --? JJ: They told you to get a job at McDonald’s? WR: Yeah. They told us to start with jobs at McDonald’s. Apply -- 9 �JJ: What was their reasoning? WR: The rationale is that you’re probably gonna get it. You’re probably gonna get the job. Basically, in doing that, they taught us not to aim too high, and that’s what I got out of the public school system. And then, when [00:16:00] you get out of the public school system, what you’re faced with are -- you know, there’s the gangs that you either click with or you don’t. The thing is -- JJ: (inaudible) [schools?]? WR: They were in the schools. They were the people that were all around us. The gangs were made of us. See, the Lower East Side was split into sections, then, depending on what projects you were in. There was the Jacob Riis Projects. Then was Lillian Wald. No, Lillian Wald was up in the hill. There was the Baruch -- I went to PS 34, which is in Jacob Riis Projects. So, that was my elementary school, and, while I was in elementary school, I wasn’t in a gang, but that was my neighborhood. That was from 13th Street to 6th Street, was Jacob Riis projects, and -- JJ: And what was the name of the gang? WR: Dime Street Mobsters -- JJ: (inaudible). WR: -- was 10th Street. That was DSM. JJ: What were some of the other gangs? WR: Well, [00:17:00] there was that gang. There were others all in throughout there, but there were so many gangs. There wasn’t big mob gangs, you know? The gangs consisted of, like, 30 to 50 people, and it was just kids, and it wasn’t even - 10 �- there wasn’t a job to do. It was just your friends. That’s all it was. And then, when I went to junior high school, I went to Junior High School 22, which was in the Baruch Projects, or Baruch, and, there, I clicked with my cousin’s gang, the Delancey Street Boys, and that was all from the seventh grade to the ninth grade. That’s the gang I was with. And then, I went to high school in Seward Park, which was in the hills -JJ: So, what did they do? Delancey Street Boys, what --? WR: What did we do? We smoked weed, and we hung out with our girlfriends, and we listened to music. And then, there was a new wave of a Dominican [00:18:00] migration into the Lower East Side, so the Delancey Street Boys was mostly Puerto Rican and Black, so we started having beef with the Dominicans. JJ: About what year was this? WR: 1993, ’94. Any fights that we was having was with Dominicans at that time because we didn’t understand each other. You know, they had a Caribbean lifestyle, and the Puerto Ricans from New York at that time had a New York lifestyle. We thought that the Dominicans dressed funny because they wore shorts and shoes with no socks, and they had Caribbean-style haircuts. They didn’t speak English. So, we discriminated on them for that, and we abused them. JJ: What do you mean? WR: We fought. You know? They were in the ESL program, which was the English as a second language, [00:19:00] so the school was divided. There was the regular Junior High School 22. Then, there was Vanguard High School, which 11 �was also in our school. It was, like, 15 students were in that high school. And then, there was the English as a second language, which was mostly the Dominicans or kids from the Caribbean. They could have been Puerto Ricans too, but, to us, they were Dominicans, and we didn’t relate. We were very different, and I felt like my neighborhood was being taken over by them, so that’s why I felt like I had to stand guard. I had to fight them. So, whenever Delancey Street Boys would get out into the back of the schoolyard, and then the English as a second language students, they would come out, we would bully them and make fun of them, and I remember, one time, this kid -- we were messin’ around with this kid’s little brother, and then he came out and defended his little brother, and then, [00:20:00] you know, he got hit, and then all the Dominican kids came out to his defense, and then we brawled. And, now, today, I feel bad about that, feel like it was stupid, but we didn’t know any better. We didn’t know to think, like, we should be united. I didn’t think like that back then. I thought of what made sense, and what made sense to me, what everybody was thinking, was we should be fighting them and make them scared enough that they got to leave our neighborhood ’cause we thought it was our neighborhood, when -JJ: (inaudible). WR: -- in fact, it wasn’t our neighborhood. It’s never been our neighborhood. It was just the place where we were. JJ: But, I mean, it was a Puerto Rican neighborhood [before, right?]? 12 �WR: Yeah, but, even before that, it wasn’t a Puerto Rican neighborhood. It was a Jewish neighborhood. You know, it’s never been anybody’s. It belongs to whoever owns it, and we never owned it. JJ: So, before that, the Jews had problems with the Puerto Ricans (inaudible)? WR: [00:21:00] I don’t know. I wasn’t around back then. That was way before my time. JJ: But you definitely had problems with the Dominicans trying to take over your neighborhood. WR: During the early ’90s, yeah. That’s what the beef was, was with the Dominican kids. JJ: Okay. So, it wasn’t, like, urban renewal or anything like that? [They just?] -- WR: We didn’t know about it. JJ: This was a natural -- WR: We didn’t know about it. I think it was 1988 -- JJ: [I don’t wanna put words?] -- WR: Yeah, no, no. I don’t know. I’m not sure, but I think it was 1988 when the police came into Tompkins Square Park and took out all the homeless people. Before, my understanding of the village was that Tompkins Square Park was the village ’cause people had tents set up in there. That’s where all the homeless people were. So, that’s why I understood it to be called the village. I don’t know that that’s right. That was my understanding of it, and, sometime around there, the cops came in and beat everybody out of the [00:22:00] park, and that should have represented the beginning of gentrification right there, but I didn’t know it at 13 �the time. None of us knew it. We just thought they were cleaning up the neighborhood, and cleaning up the neighborhood meant great things. It meant that, now, we could use the park for a couple of years, until all the artists start (inaudible) college students start moving in, and then college students who don’t have to pay the rent, but their parents pay the rent no matter what it costs, so the slum lords are like, ”Oh, so I could charge you 900 dollars for the rent, and you still gonna pay it?” So, they started charging 900, then 1,000, then up to 3,000 dollars. JJ: So, the process, if I’m understanding what you’re saying, is, first, there was a Puerto Rican community. Then, artists came in? WR: Yeah. It was a Puerto Rican community. Then, a bohemian community started getting built -- JJ: Bohemian [meaning?] (inaudible). WR: -- in the gaps. Right. And then, after that, you know, this arts culture gets built, and from that, what happens is scholarly people start coming in and saying, ”I wanna be [00:23:00] part of this artist community. It’s beautiful.” So, they start moving in, and they can afford more than the artists ’cause a artist is broke by nature. If you got money, I don’t know, really, what business you got being a artist. Art comes out of struggle. Art comes out of pain. Anyway, that ain’t gonna make sense to somebody, but it makes sense to me. JJ: Right. So, the rents were a little lower [then?]. WR: Before that Tompkins Square Park riot happened, the rent was low. It was the slums. It was a hard time. Nobody had any money. Then, the cops came in, 14 �and cleaned up Tompkins Square Park, and started beautification of the neighborhood. JJ: The cops started this? WR: No. The cops cleaned it up, and then, from somewhere, somebody decided they were gonna invest money in cleaning up this park, obviously with the goal of raising [00:24:00] the value of the land, which, yeah, that’s great, but can you raise the value of the land for us, who live there? That wasn’t the intention. When they started cleanin’ up the parks in my neighborhood in the projects, we should have seen what was coming next, was that they would clean up the neighborhood and then move us out so they could move a different breed of people in. They didn’t clean it for us. At first, we thought they were cleaning it for us to give us a better place to live in. That was not the plan. JJ: So, you believed that they were fixing it up for the Puerto Rican community at that time? WR: We did. We believed that they were fixing up our neighborhood for us. JJ: Did they say that in meetings, or --? WR: I didn’t go to meetings. I didn’t know -- JJ: Newspapers? WR: I was not an active participant in civics at all. I didn’t think like that. JJ: But you felt that they were [changing the neighborhood?]. WR: I thought they were really changing the neighborhood and fixing [00:25:00] it up for us. I thought it was a new time and things were gonna get better for us. It was during Clinton years, when I started being awake to it. We had so much 15 �money. America was rich, you know? And they were fixing, so I thought they were fixing it because we had this surplus of money. So, it just made sense. Yeah, of course. We got all this money now. Let’s fix everything. Great. Let’s get better education and everything. It wasn’t for us, though. They fixed it so that the land value would go up so that the rent could go up, and, as a result of the rent going up, we could no longer afford to live there anymore. JJ: Now, this was your community. How did you feel about that, that they were doing that, they were making these changes and --? WR: When I realized it, I was in college. It was my first year of college, and I went away, and I was away for three months, and then I came back, and I saw. If I had stayed there, I wouldn’t have seen it ’cause the change is so gradual, [00:26:00] but I was gone for three months, and I came back, and, all of a sudden, there were white kids that looked like football players walkin’ around in my projects, and that was unheard of, and I was really confused. I was like, where’s the crew? Where is everybody? Everybody was in jail because they had built a new precinct on 9th Street, right in front of the projects, and anybody that was hangin’ out, they would find a reason to arrest you. So, basically, our guards weren’t there anymore. Our guards were all in jail, you know, people who would guard against these football jocks walkin’ around in our neighborhood. I know that doesn’t sound like a bad thing to a lot of people, but, to us, it represented a change that we couldn’t fight against. So -- JJ: So, what was your response to that? 16 �WR: My response was I got some of my friends together, and, you know, the response was [00:27:00] violence. If we saw people walking around in our neighborhood that weren’t from our neighborhood, we would harass them to let them know that this was the Lower East Side. You don’t come in here without permission. You don’t come down here without having family in here. And vandalism. We would watch, like, if somebody that wasn’t from the projects would park their car in the projects, we would wait for them to leave and puncture their tires or smash a window. You know, let ’em know that this is not the place to park. JJ: Where did you get this idea to fight ’em? WR: I don’t know that we got the idea to fight them. It was just a instinct, you know? Even though those people weren’t united as a gang, we saw them as the other, so they were the obvious enemy to us. They were the new [00:28:00] Dominicans. White Americans. We were defending our neighborhood. It’s natural. It’s tribal. It’s an instinct to defend your territory, and I thought that was my territory, so I was defending it the best way I knew how. No need for confrontation. I’ll just let you park your car there. Go ahead. Park your car, and then walk away, and then try to drive out at night. Good luck. And then, vandalism was another thing. I felt like they were cleaning it up, and that’s when I started realizing they weren’t cleaning it up for us. They were cleaning it up so that those people could come through here, and that’s when I started really vandalizing and doing a lot of graffiti, which I thought was art anyway. I thought it was great, so to put it up was kind of cool, and I knew it would keep them out 17 �’cause they were scared of it. And, you know, breaking new things that they had put up in the park, or they would plant a tree, and I would break it, and I felt like that was the only [00:29:00] way we could keep our neighborhood, was if I destroyed it, which sucks, you know, that the only way we could keep our things if we kept it dirty, and here they are, trying to fix it, and the older folks don’t understand why we’re destroying everything, but that was the logic to me at the time, was, if you wanna stay here, you got to destroy the good things that they’re bringing in. We didn’t bring those good things in. They brought it in. They’re buying us out, basically, with trash, stuff that we don’t need, really, ’cause -JJ: So, you had this logic, but (inaudible) -- WR: It was confused logic. It wasn’t logic. JJ: I don’t understand where it comes from because, I mean, (inaudible) -- WR: It was rage. JJ: [Why you just didn’t?] let it go? Just let it go like everybody else [that didn’t?] do anything? Why was it so [deep?] with you is what I’m saying. WR: ’Cause -- JJ: [Other people just let it go?]. WR: -- I was -- I couldn’t just let it go. [00:30:00] JJ: Had you read about gentrification [in other areas?]? WR: No, I didn’t know how to read. I didn’t know how to read -- I just knew it was something wrong. I knew that it was our neighborhood, and all these friends that I had growing up with wasn’t around anymore, and I just linked it. It has to be because of them. It has to be because of these people who are here now that 18 �my friends are not here no more, and I had rage, and we didn’t have a leader to direct us and say, ”No, the right thing to do is this.” We didn’t have that. We didn’t have a smart person in my neighborhood. There was nobody telling us how to do it the right way. We were just the crazy kids on the corner who couldn’t be told what to do. We didn’t have respect for our elders. [00:31:00] There was no real reason to. Nobody had ever stood out to us as, you know, a community leader. If there was one -- there probably was one in the Lower East Side. I never knew who he was or she was. They never presented themselves to us. So, me and my boys, we did the opposite of what those people wanted us to do. Those people wanted us to leave all the stuff nice, but they weren’t down with us, so why were we gonna do what they wanted us to do? So, we were like, no. Fuck it. You’re gonna go plant trees in our neighborhood without askin’ us permission? We gonna take ’em out. You know, or you gonna park your nice cars here? Go ahead. You got to buy new tires, though. Don’t ever park here again. JJ: What were your parents thinking? WR: My parents didn’t know I was doing that. JJ: [00:32:00] And did they say anything about (inaudible)? WR: My parents thought I was going to church all the time. My parents were not revolutionary at all. My father was very, you know, just keep your head down. Just do your job. Do your job. He worked as a janitor in Bellevue Hospital, and he went to work almost every day. He did overtime hours. He busted his ass working so that he could keep us fed, and keep the rent paid, and lead us by 19 �being a good example. My mother was in church all the time. She was a Pentecostal, and she believed very much that God was gonna solve our problems, so just pray. When things are wrong, just pray. Don’t get up and do things out of anger. Just pray, and God’ll make a way, and I believed that for a long time, but then I stopped believing that God was gonna make a way, and I stopped believing that keeping your head down and going with the stream was a good idea, [00:33:00] but they didn’t know I was doing that. My mom thought I was going to church all the time. My father thought I was in school all the time, but, really, I was being a teenager. JJ: And this was during high school. WR: During high school, mm-hmm. And then, when I got to college, you know, it was different. I lived Upstate. I was with a bunch of white kids. JJ: You said you dropped out (inaudible). WR: I dropped out of high school for a semester. Actually, I didn’t drop out of high school. I didn’t go to high school, but I was still registered, and then I got left back, so they were gonna make me do the ninth grade again for a third time, so I was like, ”Nah, forget that.” So, that’s when I enrolled in a second chance high school. It was a magnet school called Satellite Academy on Forsyth Street, and that was the first time I had any teachers of color, and that was when I started [00:34:00] learning for the first time, was my -- JJ: Before that, it was all -- WR: -- tenth and eleventh grade. JJ: -- Jewish teachers, or --? 20 �WR: Before, they were people who didn’t understand us. You know, they weren’t from our culture. JJ: You didn’t like them? WR: It wasn’t that I didn’t like them. I mean, I thought it was normal, but they didn’t even know how to speak to us. They couldn’t relate to the students. They couldn’t help us. They weren’t trying to help us. That wasn’t the goal. JJ: You could feel that [there wasn’t?] (inaudible)? WR: Right. No, they weren’t teaching us how to do great things. JJ: Were they angry? Were they --? WR: No, they weren’t angry. They were very nice and passive, but they also didn’t care if we didn’t care. But that was different in high school. In high school, I noticed that those teachers of color, they did care. If we didn’t care, they cared [00:35:00] that we didn’t care, and they went out of their way to make us care, and, you know, they told us why it’s important. That was when I first learned about Taínos. Before that, none of my Jewish teachers could have ever told me about a Taíno. They didn’t know what that was. I don’t know that they could have found Puerto Rico on a map. There was no way they could teach us about ourselves. They didn’t come from us, and it wasn’t until high school, and that was when my rebellious phase was really taking over. That’s when I was all about hanging with the clique, and smashing things, and taggin’ my name up all over places, and seeing where I could climb up higher than anybody else and get my name up higher, you know. JJ: So, (inaudible), [you mean more?] like a gang type of -- 21 �WR: Yeah. JJ: Or just (inaudible). WR: Right. Right. That’s what I mean by rebellious, is just [00:36:00] doing what people didn’t want me to do, you know, doing bad. JJ: And this was in high school. WR: It started in junior high school, when I really liked fighting. JJ: But this was before the teachers, the new teachers. WR: Right. Right. When I got those new teachers in the Satellite Academy, that’s when I started changing, and I think that’s when I started becoming aware of the gentrification, but it was because of those teachers. If we had had teachers from the beginning that could tell us what we were coming from, what we were going through, I think my mind would have developed in a whole different way. I would have been alert to that all, and it wasn’t until my tenth, and eleventh, and twelfth grade that I started finding out about Taínos, finding [00:37:00] about gentrification, about when Puerto Ricans got to New York. You know, stuff that I cared about or stuff that I realized then I cared about. I didn’t know I cared about that. I didn’t know it existed. I didn’t know to think about that, and that would make a big difference if we were actually taught by people from our own culture. That would make a big difference. JJ: So, this is when you begin thinking about the theatre? All of a sudden, you think theatre, or --? WR: No, no. I was afraid to perform, but I was a performer. JJ: Was this high school? 22 �WR: No, it was in college when I started doing theatre. JJ: And you were studying what? What was your major? WR: My first major was photography, but then, in order to be a photography student, you had to be able to afford film. You had to be able to afford a camera. You had to be able to afford all the chemicals to develop your pictures and all that, and that’s when I realized, oh, you can’t be [00:38:00] poor and be a photography major. JJ: Photography why? Why photography? WR: Because my sister and my brother-in-law -- Mildred and Steve started a community center in the Bronx called The POINT, and, in there, they had a program from International Center of Photography, and that’s where I started learning photography. This was while I was still in high school, but I was going to this community center, and I started learning photography, and I used to go around the neighborhood and take pictures about things in the neighborhood, and I liked that, and people from the neighborhood liked to see themselves in pictures. So, you know, I’ll take a picture of some people hangin’ out on the corner, and then, the next day, I develop it and bring it to them, be like, ”Yo, this is y’all,” and they’d like that, and that made people happy and made ’em smile, and I liked that. So, then, when I got to college, I was like, ”I wanna be a photographer, and I wanna go back and take pictures of the neighborhood,” and that’s when I found out that Jacob Riis, whom our projects were named after, was this famous Jewish guy who got famous because he photographed the slum conditions that the Jewish [00:39:00] people were being forced to live in, and I 23 �was like, ”Oh, man, I could be like the next Jacob Riis for Puerto Ricans.” So, that was my dream, but then I realized that you can’t be poor and be a photography major. That was for kids who could afford that or who got grants for that, and I didn’t know how to get a grant. And then, I couldn’t do anything in any other department because I couldn’t read well. I couldn’t do math, but -JJ: What was your problem with reading? (inaudible). WR: The first book I had read was in college, was during my freshman seminar, was this book, Why Elephants Weep. It was about anthropomorphism and how humans give human traits to animals. Like, ”Oh, that dog is happy, or that dog is sad.” We don’t know how a dog feels. We don’t know if a dog feels happy or sadness. I’m sure they do, but [00:40:00] that’s what it was about. So, that was the first book I read, and that was in college. Why hadn’t I read a book before that? I could read ’cause I read comic books, and I read subtitles on movies and stuff like that. JJ: So, you were able to read. You just (inaudible). WR: I could read a little bit, yeah. JJ: [You just didn’t like the other books that?] -- WR: I just couldn’t understand. You give me a book with chapters in it and, like, I wasn’t accustomed to reading a book for a long time. JJ: Right. But comic books was fine? WR: Yeah. It’s short. You read 15 pages, and you’re done, and it’s adventure, and it’s only a few words here and there. It’s pictures. So, yeah, I didn’t -- JJ: Those hard books made you think that you couldn’t do something. 24 �WR: I didn’t think I could read. And then, I started reading plays, and I read this Oscar Wilde play, and it had masks and stuff, and I was like, ”Oh, masks are cool.” JJ: One day, you just took on to reading a play, or --? WR: [00:41:00] Yeah. My boy, [Juan Carlos?], he was in the theatre department. He was Dominican, and he was like, ”Yo, you should come and audition for this play,” and I was like, ”All right.” So, I went and auditioned, and I got the role, and, now, I was like, oh, shit. I got to read? So, I had to read this script, and I read it, and I played the role, and I did well, and I was like, ”I could do this. I could do this.” And I could read. I just had never challenged myself like that. So, I started reading, and then I read Beckett’s Waiting for Godot, and I loved Beckett. I loved absurdists, crazy theatre. I liked that, and then I got really into it, and I was like, ”Oh, this is --” JJ: What do you mean, crazy theatre? ’Cause I’m not -- WR: Like, things that don’t make sense. In this play, I got this character, Primo, right? Who’s basically -- JJ: This is Party People? In Party People? WR: In Party People. I wrote this [00:42:00] character named Primo, who’s basically a warped revolutionary, but you don’t know what side he stands on. You don’t know what he’s fighting for, what’s his cause, and, to me, that’s absurd, is somebody who devotes theirselves 100 percent entirely to something, but you can’t quite tell what that thing is. He fights for this side and that side, and, in doing so, he makes both sides fight against each other. I like writing stuff like that, stuff that confuses the audience and makes them agree with me and 25 �disagree with me at the same time. And I noticed that Beckett was really good at that. And then, you know, I did a couple of plays. I got through my four years. I struggled through it. I had to get by on charisma, but I made it through, and I graduated, and I got a bachelor’s degree, and [00:43:00] 25,000 dollars of debt. JJ: But a bachelor’s degree in what --? WR: In theatre. JJ: In theatre. WR: In theatre, and I minored in archaeology. This was a big thing for me. I wasn’t a good reader, and my archeology professor knew that, but I had a great understanding for timespan and human characteristics in tribal situations. Because of comin’ up in a gang, I understood how the Lenape tribes in New York, which, today, we call the Delawares -- how they related to each other in small groups. So, I had this great understanding for how deep the layers of earth -- what they represented by color change, what timespan each strata represented. So, when I would dig, I understood the wall that I was looking at, but I couldn’t understand the book that explained what I was looking at when I was looking at the wall, and my professor [00:44:00] noticed that in me. He noticed that I could look -- I could dig down and dig a straight wall down into the ground and show the different stratigraphy, and where there used to be rivers, and where somebody threw a bunch of clam and oyster shells -- this is where they were sitting -- or where there was a fire hearth, where they might have sat and made camp for the night while they (inaudible). I understood how to read to ground, and my professor saw that in me, and he made me the crew chief. I was 26 �his crew chief from the time I graduated for four more years after college, and I led his digs, and, you know, there were some students who were great readers, and he had them analyze things in a different way, but me, he would sit me inside of a pit and have me look at a wall and explain to him what happened there for the last 8,000 years, and I could do that by [00:45:00] looking at the layers of dirt, and the angles, and what the dirt was made out of, the [acidity?]. It was all this stuff that went into play, and I could read a wall of dirt, but I couldn’t read a book. It was sad but really cool at the same time. So, I did that, and I don’t know. I think my brain just works in a different way from most people. JJ: Tell me about Party People. I mean, what is it about? [I mean, you did it today?]. WR: All right. Party People -- that’s a deep question. What is Party People about? JJ: And, you know, you can start with how you guys began thinking about it, (inaudible). WR: I think Party People is about -- JJ: And why. WR: It’s about aging, and it’s about passing the baton to the next generation. Nobody ever passed the baton to me or anybody that I knew in my [00:46:00] generation. Nobody that had been through what we were going through in the Lower East Side had passed the baton to us. None of our elders in the Lower East Side told us, ”Oh, yeah, we went through that 10 years ago or 20 years ago. We know what you’re going through right now. You just got to do this and this.” We didn’t get advice from nobody. Nobody ever passed us the baton. And then, they got 27 �older, and older, and older, and either disgruntled, or felt like they failed, or felt sad about the choices that they made, but they never led us. You know, they could have had a giant army of people if they had just stuck with it, and let shit go, and taught us, but there was never anybody from them ever around to teach us, so we had to learn it just the same way they had to learn it, so we never got anywhere. We got about as far as they did, and I think Party People is a reflective [00:47:00] look at what happened to everybody 40 years later. Where are their minds today? Where are their children, and where are their children’s children? What is everybody going through today as a result of all that war that went on back then, the post-traumatic stress that everybody got, the -- you know, some people feel like they failed. Some people feel like they succeeded. Some people gave up, and left it behind, and never turned back towards it again, and some people are still struggling today with it, and still fighting for people’s rights, and fighting for justice, and I think that the main thing that my character is talking about in the play is a feeling of having been left behind to fend for ourselves instead of having been taken under the wing of all those people that fought for us and trained to continue the fight [00:48:00] for the next generations that are coming behind us. I think that’s what my character’s trying to talk about, is that we kinda got left behind instead of fostered. You know, we didn’t have mentors. JJ: But that’s the character Primo. WR: That’s the Primo character. JJ: Okay. And what about the rest of the play, Party People? [What’s that?] --? 28 �WR: The thing is that the play touches on a lot of topics. It depends on who you are, the viewer, when you come into the room. Each person that sees the show is gonna leave with a different message. Some people are gonna leave with the message of, damn, we did give up. Some people are gonna leave with the message of that’s right, we are still fighting. Some people are gonna leave with the message of, you know, this wasn’t all based on hate. The whole revolution was not based on hate. It was based on love for people’s communities. Some people are gonna leave with [00:49:00] all those people just had guns. They were scary. You know, it depends on who you are and what frame of mind you’re in when you come see the show. That is gonna dictate what you leave the show with ’cause we touch on so many different topics, and it was written by three people -- JJ: Like what kind of -- WR: -- but we had so many collaborators. JJ: What kind of topics (inaudible)? What kind of topics? WR: Our topics range from historical events that happened in the ’60s, and ’70s, and ’80s to concepts that were going on in people’s minds at those times, what revolution meant to different people. Not everybody had the same definition of revolution. There’s an FBI character in our play. To him, obviously, revolution is a whole different thing. His concept of revolution [00:50:00] is quelling the people’s struggle, and that restores a safe America to him. Other people see a safe America by feeding the children and making sure that they go to school with a full belly and the vitamins that they need so that they can learn. For some 29 �people, the revolution was about making sure old people were safe and got escorted to cash their social security checks and made sure that they didn’t get robbed on the way back home. For some people, the revolution was about fighting police brutality and making sure that we weren’t being abused by an oppressive system of outsiders that were in our community. For some people, the revolution was about education. For some people, the revolution was about living standards. For some people, the revolution was about working standards. Everybody fought for a different thing, but we all fought together, and that went away at some point. You know, that [00:51:00] wasn’t around when I was a kid. Nobody was fighting for anything when I was a kid. We were fighting for territory. We were fighting for control of drug sales. We weren’t united when I was growing up. We were at war with ourselves, and we didn’t know that, in the ’60s, there were people fighting together for something. We didn’t know about all that history. I didn’t learn about the Black Panthers ’til I got to college. I didn’t learn about the Young Lords ’til about the end of my college. You know, I didn’t know about that stuff. I didn’t know about what y’all did. Nobody ever taught us that. That legend, that cultural history didn’t exist for us. Maybe for some people, but not for me. I didn’t know about any of that. Nobody taught me that. JJ: So, you go to college, and you hear about these groups, the Young Lords -- WR: [00:52:00] Yeah. When I went to college -- JJ: Black Panthers. WR: -- Bobby Seale came and spoke at my college, and I went because all the revolutionary cool kids went to that talk. I didn’t know who Bobby Seale was. I 30 �just thought it was a cool name. One of the Wu-Tang members, one of the members of Wu-Tang Clan, that was his nickname. I was like, ”Oh, that’s hot. Who’s this dude?” Talkin’ about the Black Panthers. ”Oh, I heard about the Black Panthers. What’s that about?” And then, I went, and I heard him talk, and the stuff that he was talkin’ about was about -- you know, it wasn’t about what I thought it was. I thought it was about fighting, and shooting cops, and stuff like that, and it wasn’t about that. It was about making life better for the people who didn’t have that, people who weren’t born with healthcare from their parents, people who had to worry about where their next meal was gonna come from, [00:53:00] people whose houses were deteriorating, who lived in conditions where asbestos was everywhere. I remember we got taken out of our school my eighth grade. All the kids basically got evacuated out of my school for two months because they had to clean out the asbestos, and that was in the eighth grade, so I’m like, ”Damn, how many years of asbestos have I been breathing in?” It was just a little too late, and I think, once I realized that there were people that were fighting for our people at one point, I felt abandoned. I felt like my generation got abandoned, and we didn’t have anybody fightin’ for us, and we were left to fight against each other ’cause we didn’t see that there was a real enemy, and, still, we don’t really know who that real enemy is, but [00:54:00] it just doesn’t make sense that we’re subjected to the conditions of living that we’re subjected to. And I think a lot of my life was just blind fury. I didn’t know why I was fighting. I didn’t know what I was fighting for, but I knew I had to fight because I felt like a sucker if I didn’t. It was blind fury all the way until I got to 31 �college, and then I kind of just gave up. It was too late at that point. I wasn’t even in my community anymore. I was living in the suburbs, you know. It was too late already. JJ: Now, your sister Mildred and -- you said Jamal? WR: It was Mildred, Steve, Jamal, yeah. JJ: So, they were already together at Universes. WR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Were they already in theatre? WR: Yes. They were already doin’ it. JJ: So, did they shape your decision also, or --? WR: [00:55:00] No. No. That’s not why I -- not at all. Not at all. I think I was acting up since I was a little kid. You know, I did church plays here and there, but that was -- JJ: Does it run in your family, or were you the first generation? WR: I don’t know. I mean, no. Nobody in my family was theatre. Mildred wasn’t in theatre. She was a lit major, a literature major. JJ: [Literature, okay?]. WR: My mother sang to us. JJ: [She sang professionally?]? WR: But she -- no, she didn’t sing professionally. She was a home attendant. She didn’t have dreams of grandeur. My father was a janitor. JJ: You guys started theatre at the same time, [basically?]? WR: No. Mildred went to Bard in 1988, and she didn’t start doin’ theatre -- 32 �JJ: Bard is a -- WR: Bard College. Bard, Annandale, New York. Dutchess County. [00:56:00] And she didn’t start doing theatre until she got there, and then Steve -- I don’t know. I don’t know when he started. I think he started there, but I was a poet since I was in junior high school. I was a rapper. You know, that was my thing. I loved rapping. I loved telling stories for my neighborhood in the form of rap, and that was my performance. I used to go to the Nuyorican Poets Café, and go down there, and battle. And then, when I got to college, I was like, ”Oh, I can use this.” Oh, matter of fact, in college, my poetry professor was Bob Holman, who was one of the founders of the Nuyorican Poets Café, and he was who made me realize that I was a poet ’cause I didn’t realize I was a poet. I went to his class, and I was like, ”Yeah, nah, I’m actually -- I’m a rapper. I don’t do poems.” And I read him one of my raps, and he was like, ”Oh, yeah, that’s poetry.” And then, he started gettin’ that into my head, that my rhymes were actually poems, [00:57:00] and that’s when I learned how to write poetry. Basically just turn my rhymes into poems. JJ: Okay. So, I guess we’ll kinda wrap it up [if you can?] explain some of the other plays that Universes [has done?]. WR: All right. So, I mean, Steve can tell you this better than I can. JJ: (inaudible). WR: But, yeah, there was -- yeah, I think I’ll let Steve talk to you about the history of Universes. JJ: Okay. 33 �END OF AUDIO FILE 34 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f49ab8638d30786a01569e04f1fe96a.mp4 bf2d141cf48d595562fafbe88c53af06 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry William Ruiz vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Nueva York (N.Y.) Artes, Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Partido Pantera Negra Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Ruiz_William Title A name given to the resource William Ruiz video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ruiz, William Description An account of the resource William “Ninja” Ruiz is the brother of Mildred Ruiz-Sapp of Universes and they grew up in New York City on the Lower East Side. He earned his BA in Theatre at Bard College where he also studied poetry. Today he makes his home in Santurce, Puerto Rico and is a leading member of the Universes Theatre Ensemble. Universes is a New York-based theatre group that fuses poetry, jazz, hip hop, politics, blues and Spanish boleros to create its own productions which are performed on and off Broadway, nationally and internationally. One of their most recent productions is “Party People” (2012) which is primarily about the Black Panther Party and the Young Lords. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--New York (N.Y.) Arts, Puerto Rican--New York (N.Y.) Black Panther Party Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b100aab37d44120657caadbcdb4f7c7a.pdf 18796c961d4eb166653aacc40e68d660 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ross, Wanda Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/24/2012 Biography and Description Wanda Ross grew up in Chicago, the granddaughter of migrants from the southern United States. Shortly after she began college, she started attending political education classes taught by “Teach” of the Black Panther Party for Self Defense (BPP). She joined the BPP shortly thereafter. She was chief developer of the BPP’s Breakfast for Children Program. Ms. Ross describes how she started the Chicago program, including how she identified donors who would be willing to give food to the program, picked up those supplies, and organized teams to cook and serve the children who participated in the program. The BPP Breakfast Program was used as a model by other organizations, including the Young Lords and Young Patriots. The program also served as a model for the free breakfast programs currently offered through public schools. Ms. Ross talks about working with representatives of those other groups. She also describes the regular abuse, harassment, and vandalism she experienced from police and other law enforcement operatives while she was working on the Breakfast Program. This includes her experiences with Bill O’Neil, the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s COINTELPRO operative who arranged for BPP Chairman Fred Hampton’s assassination in 1971. Ms. Ross remains a community activist in Chicago, putting into practice her reminder that “saving the world” is a lifetime commitment. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Wanda, if you can give me your full name, date of birth, and where you were born. WANDA ROSS: My name is Wanda Ross. I was born, Cook County Hospital, Chicago, Illinois. 9/28/50. JJ: 9/28/50? And your parents, were they born here, too? In Chicago? WR: It’s my understanding, I was adopted by people within my family line. And they were born here in Chicago, my auntie and my cousin. JJ: Your auntie and your cousin? WR: Right. My -- JJ: Okay. So, they raised you, then? WR: Yes. Yes. JJ: And what’s their name? WR: That would be [Bernice?] Ross, who was my cousin, and my great-aunt would be [Jessie Circe?] -- Jessie Circe probably was born in Alabama. Bernice Ross was born in Cook County Hospital. JJ: Okay. You have any other siblings, or --? [00:01:00] And their names. WR: There’s three different sets of kids. I happened to be with the second set, but like I said, I was adopted, so I was raised away from them. JJ: From all of them? WR: Right. Well, we have connected over time, but not as a child. JJ: Okay. What about other aunts and uncles, were they around, or --? 1 �WR: I didn’t really interact with a lot of other people, except the folks that raised me. They were old folks. JJ: They were old folks? WR: Right, so I was an old folks’ child. JJ: Okay. So, what’s so different between that and the traditional parents, or? WR: I guess, you know -- Everybody in the household was over 40 but me, so they put me in a lot of activities. I did Girl Scouts, I did whatever activity they could find for me. I did not interact with my brothers and sisters growing up, because I didn’t know ’em that [00:02:00] well. And basically it was a small family, it was a small family unit. JJ: Okay. So, you didn’t -- Did you stay at home, also, or, I mean, sheltered, like, somewhat, or were you outgoing, or were able to -- I know you didn’t interact with other children. WR: Well, I didn’t say “not interact with other children”. But, at the old folks’ home, you have a certain approach to things. I mean, I took dancing, I took -- They had me in activities to keep me from bouncing off the walls. And I went to a Catholic grammar school, Catholic high school. So-- JJ: Okay. What school? What Catholic school? WR: I went to St. Dorothy. JJ: Okay, where was that located? WR: Grammar school, that’s at -- 77th and Vernon, it’s on the South Side of Chicago. JJ: On the South Side, on the South Side. 2 �WR: And then I went to a Catholic high school, which was within walking distance. That was Mercy, I don’t think it’s [00:03:00] there anymore. JJ: So how was the grammar school, any unique things that you did there, or --? WR: I’m not sure what you’re looking for, the uniqueness of a childhood. JJ: Yeah, I’m just trying to find out, you know, growing up, how it was growing up, basically, I’m just trying to describe for people that are not from Chicago or have no concept about that. So that’s basically (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Well, it’s like a snapshot demographic, everybody’s childhood is different. I went back and forth until I was finally adopted. So, I did stay with my mom, I think up until I was maybe three or four. But I was sickly. I had tuberculosis and had been in a tuberculosis sanatorium for a year. [00:04:00] It just so happened that my cousin and my aunt were more committed, because I was presenting a lot of health issues that my mom didn’t want to deal with. So, I went back and forth for a while. So, for a while I was a sickly kid. Then, when I finally came to live with them at seven, I just stayed -- JJ: Back and forth to where? WR: Huh? JJ: Back and forth to where? I didn’t get -- WR: I lost my train of thought. JJ: I’m sorry. WR: I don’t know where I was. JJ: You were describing about (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 3 �WR: I stayed with my mom for a minute. Then I was back with my auntie and cousin - JJ: But your mom lives here? WR: Then I went back with my mom. And I got sick again, and I went back with them, and then they kept me. JJ: Okay, (inaudible). WR: So, I mean, you know, as a sickly kid, I guess I didn’t, you know -- Then, when I stayed there, I think I came to stay with them at 7, and at 10, they adopted me. So. JJ: [00:05:00] Okay. But was your mom here, or in Alabama? WR: She was here. But, I think, somewhere in the late ’60s, but I was pretty much an adult, or close to being an adult, she moved down to southern Illinois. Right, so I think she lives around Carbondale, Murphysboro, that kind of stuff. JJ: How would you describe your neighborhood in the South Side, at that time? WR: My neighborhood was one that -- I grew up in Chatham. White folks were just leaving the neighborhood, and Black folks were moving in. And I remember, the only reason I went to Catholic school was ’cause it was down the street. But I think that the nuns were caught up in having to deal with Black children, and it [00:06:00] wasn’t what they were trying to do. Because we had -- We didn’t have big issues, but we still had some racial issues, because, I don’t think they were prepared for the neighborhood to change. Eh. JJ: So, kind of racial issues, are you [talking about?]? 4 �WR: Well, always nuns, with, you know, “you people”. You know, there’s a demeanor. Of, dealing with -- you could tell that they got caught in a changing neighborhood. And there was nothing that they could do about it. You know, they were sisters of Mercy, they had to do what they needed to do. And the younger ones were a lot better, the older ones, they had issues. We didn’t have issues. [Phone rings] JJ: So, you’re describing that your neighborhood was changing at the -- WR: Yeah, I mean, Black folks were moving in, I mean, I’m still a kid. So, you know, there’s a lot of things that I can assess looking back. But when you’re in the middle of it -- [00:07:00] Because I remember the three or four white folks that were left on the block. There was an old couple that was next to us, and my mom used to make me go over there and be nice to them, which was just -- JJ: Didn’t wanna be nice to ’em? WR: Not at all. (laughter) Not at all. They were old folks, they were white -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but you were young. WR: -- and they smelled like pee, which is what old folks smell like. So, you know we made up stories. Somebody was Dracula, somebody was the wife of Dracula, you know, just stuff, and, you know, it took me getting older to be able to see them as just people. Because they were still kind of, you know, when people are outside of your regular, everyday, thing, like I said, they were old folks, they were white, and they smelled like pee. You know? This would never fly. You know? JJ: Yeah. (inaudible) WR: But -- 5 �JJ: But then your mom, or, [00:08:00] I mean (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Who I called my mom, would’ve been my cousin. There’s just things that I think the neighborhood was more of a neighborhood, like, I think that people across the street were an old married couple, didn’t have kids; she made me go over there to visit with them, so there are just certain things in place, that sense of neighborhood, that -- And there was an old white German guy that was left, he didn’t speak English well. But see, now, he would come out with a pistol and just scare everybody away. You know, if we ran through his yard, or that -- You know, so, I mean, you get bits and pieces of some white folks that were left behind. JJ: So, there were -- WR: -- because they didn’t have resources to move. And then you get other pieces of just, the sense of neighborhood, because we all knew each other. And I think we played within a two- or three-block [00:09:00] radius, something like that. So, you know, on the neighborhood, you had, on the block, you had a teacher, a doctor, a funeral director. I think there was somebody at the end of the block that might have might have dealt drugs. But it was a sense of, professional people plus other people, that all lived together in one situation. So, there was a lot more, maybe, respect, from kids, you know. From kids to old folks. A lot more Black people owned things. Because I don’t remember having to go out of the neighborhood for too many things that I needed. The grocery store was down the street, so-and-so was across the street, you know. So, it was self-sufficient, [00:10:00] in some ways. And, in other ways, I guess I didn’t see the lack until I 6 �got older. You know, as a kid, I’m cool. School was down the street. Mom is here. Somebody else is across the street that’s going to tell anybody if I do something wrong. You know, it’s that sense of neighborhood. But the interesting thing is that we didn’t go east. We didn’t go past Stony Island. I remember getting -- because the neighborhood was still white in a lot of areas. I’m at King Drive, so King Drive is, like, about 400 East. Stony Island is 1600 East. Okay, so you still have a large white clientele that you, you just didn’t go there. You know. I can reme-JJ: Were you afraid to go there, or -- WR: Huh? JJ: Were you afraid to go there, [00:11:00] or --? WR: You know what, I’m not sure if I was afraid. I was just told, “You just don’t go there.” JJ: Okay, just told. WR: You know and I can remember my mom taking me somewhere to get a Brownie outfit at Evergreen Plaza. But they wouldn’t sell to Black folks, and that was at 95th and Western. I mean, you know, there’s little things that you remember as you grow up. I don’t remember anything other than just dirty looks, I mean, you know, nobody -- JJ: So, there were dirty looks (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Right. Nobody picked me up and threw me down, you know. But -- JJ: Were there, like, gangs or anything like that? Or white gangs, or no? WR: Not that I was familiar with. Not at all. I think the -- 7 �JJ: In Lincoln Park, we’d face white gangs. WR: Right, no, we did. We did. But then again, as a girl, my experience would be different than some of the young men. Because, [00:12:00] I mean, we were still of the age, all the way through high school, if we went to parties, you know, somebody’s mom had to take us there and pick us up. But the guys, a lot of the guys came home on the bus, so there’s certain territories that they might not have crossed. And I’m not sure if it was -- I’m pretty sure it wasn’t white gangs, it was just gang territory. But we pretty much got dropped off and picked up to anything that we did outside of the neighborhood, ’cause, we just thought it was parenting. That’s not to say -- and I’m not sure how deep, you know, the gang situation, I think, was just becoming. You know, it wasn’t at the point that it was unsafe, it was more “beware” than being in an unsafe environment. But just be very wary of the environment that you’re in. JJ: ’Cause I know now there’s a large problem on the South Side, I don’t know if that’s the same [00:13:00] area or-- is that where a lot of the gang activity is now? I hear just bits and pieces in Michigan, so. WR: Well, I think in my lifetime, because I’m probably about the same age as Jeff Fort, or he might be a little older. I’m saying that those gangs were developing. But they were still further -- JJ: Was that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? WR: No. That was still much further away from me, ’cause I’m in Chatham. JJ: Right, you’re in Chatham. WR: When you start talking about Jeff Fort, the, what were they, Blackstone Rangers- 8 �JJ: Yeah, the Blackstone Rangers. WR: And the Disciples. The Disciples were west of the expressway. And Blackstone Rangers were basically down in what we called the low end, like, around 63rd. So, it was still not an environment. It’s like, we were aware of them, but they were just beginning to form. And most of the time, a lot of the gang interaction was with each [00:14:00] other. You know, they weren’t necessarily picking on people they didn’t know. Now, that developed, and it changed. But, not as I was growing up, no, I wasn’t that aware of it. Not at all. JJ: So, you didn’t experience none of that? WR: I didn’t experience gang stuff until considerably later. JJ: Okay. You experienced looks that you were getting from (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- WR: Just white folks, you know, like, “Why are you here?” Or, some people refusing to serve us. You know, but most of the time, you know, our parents would interpret that and just push us out of the way. ’Cause we’re kids. You know, we don’t have to do any business interaction. So -- I took dancing at Mayfair Academy. And the guy there, Tommy [00:15:00] Sutton, he used to take us places for us to dance. We did tap. I remember we were on a Ted Mack hour. And I remember when we went downtown, that it was a big deal about him being able to park in a certain parking lot. But most of the time, grown folks always pushed us out of those issues. And I remember that we were at the studio, we were around all day, just to tape two or three minutes. And whenever anything felt uncomfortable, he always just moved us out of the way, so, you know. We 9 �were always around grown folks that were protecting us from certain things, and this had to have been -- I was 10, so it had to have been 1960. JJ: What got you into dancing? I think you sang also, or no, or --? WR: I do now, but I didn’t then. JJ: You didn’t do it then? But what got you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- WR: Being at an old folks’ house. [00:16:00] I mean, you know, it’s kind of like, “We’re gonna have some activ--” ‘cause everybody worked. So, if everybody gets up and go to work, the last thing they need is me sitting at home unattended. My great-auntie, she did day work. Which meant that she went and cleaned white folks’ houses, that’s what she did. I remember, she had a family, they were leaving, and they stopped by the house to say goodbye, and I remember the little girl saying, “Well, they don’t need you!” And they called her by her first name, and I didn’t even know she had a first name! (laughs) She was my auntie, she was a old lady. How does a little-bitty girl say Jessie? I’m like, “Ooh, who are you?” You know? But, so she did day work. Everybody in the household worked. Because we were moving to a better neighborhood, and everybody had to contribute to this, so that also meant that [00:17:00] I needed to be in some activities. They’re not gonna leave a little kid unattended. You know, shoot. I’d be out just doing mayhem and havoc. JJ: Okay. So now, you’re going to school -- WR: Catholic school. JJ: Catholic school, how was that? Was this high school, or no? WR: Catholic grammar school and high school. 10 �JJ: And high school, okay. What school was that? WR: The grammar school was St. Dorothy. JJ: St. Dorothy? WR: And actually, I was there at the time that there was this big dispute. Father Clements -- JJ: He was [working there?]? WR: -- came there. JJ: Oh, he just came there. WR: Right, but there was a Father Lambert already there, who was the first Black priest ordained in [00:18:00] Chicago. And there was this big fight over whether or not -- the white pastor had died, who was going to be the pastor, and it was supposedly between the two Black guys. Father Lambert, since, I think he went on to -- He ended up being over at University of Chicago. And Father Clements was there at St. Dorothy. JJ: So, Father Clements came there. He was there for a few years, or? WR: He was there for a few years, yeah. JJ: Okay. So, he was pretty -- a little progressive, no, Father Clements, or no? WR: I guess you could say he was progressive. JJ: You don’t agree? (laughs) WR: Well, actually, I liked Father Lambert. But the thing about Father Clements [00:19:00] was I think he was a lot more outgoing. There were more things going on. Civil Rights Movement was actually just picking up then. And you had a lot of people coming and trying to raise money. I remember hearing ministers from 11 �SCLC speak that maybe would not have happened under Father Lambert. But I thought Father Clements wanted to just be in the news, that was just my opinion. But I was a kid. You know, I mean, you make assessments of things, because, you know, I’ve grown up with Father Lambert, and here came Father Clements. But he was pastor there for a while. And I do think -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Father Clements in there, you know, because I know of his name. So, what was Father [00:20:00] Lambert, [then?]? WR: Father Lambert eventually ended up being my treasurer when I was with the Panthers. We formed -- I formed a corporation. And I ended up making him the treasurer, so that he had to sign off on stuff. I think I pushed him further than he was willing to go. But he was a good guy. He’s kind of like, “The Panthers?” (laughter) I was sure that I pushed him further than he was willing to go. JJ: But he did it, though. WR: But he did it. But he did it. Matter of fact, when I was in the party, when we had the office raided for the food and I had to find some other place for food -- JJ: ’Cause how many times was it raided, the Panther office? WR: Actually, I only remember two. There were more times than that, but these were the times that [00:21:00] the food was destroyed. So-- JJ: Okay, so, what’d you do then? WR: So, I mean, I can only say about the aftermath. I came in, and all I saw was eggs and meat spread all over the floor. And I think, the roof, there was a slight fire there. So, I had made a deal with the people at St. Dorothy’s, which, there was a white person there by then, that I used to keep the food there. Because they had 12 �coolers. And then just pick it up and drop it off at the breakfast programs until I could find some other place. But I used to store food at St. Dorothy’s, because of that. JJ: Okay. So, I wanna get into how you got the food there, but there was a raid. Was anybody hurt at it, how did that come about? WR: I’m not totally sure -- JJ: The first one (inaudible). WR: The raid that I can [00:22:00] talk about was the one that -- [Terry?] was in. I’m trying to think -- Terry [Mason?]. And actually, Terry Mason went to the same grammar school that I did. I remember it was eight of them, and I don’t remember -- I remember Terry was there, I remember [Shea?] was there. [Big Moody?], I think was there, and I don’t remember who the rest were. My understanding is that the police gained entry, and I’m still not clear about how they gained entry. I can assume that there was no OD on the door at the time. JJ: Now, we’re talking about a second story -- WR: We’re talking about on the second floor. JJ: On the second floor, sorry. And then we’re talking about a steel door (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) so they gained entry -- WR: And I’m not sure whether they gained entry from the door in the front or the door in the back. I don’t know if the door in the back was quite as strong as the door in the front. You know, there’s another [00:23:00] reality that you have to look at from the Panthers, and that is that we didn’t have everything to back up what we said. And, like I said, I don’t think the door in the back was as strong as the door 13 �in the front. Because I’m not sure how they gained entry. But once they did, they decimated the office. They arrested the young men, and they beat them up. Okay, now, we said a lot of things that should be, but we didn’t instigate. So, a lot of times, we ended up being on the tail-end of violence, because we did not instigate it. The point of the matter was, we were there to do the right thing, be the right thing, and show people what the right thing should [00:24:00] be. But we did not instigate a lot of what happened. And in many ways, we were not even in a position to protect ourselves. But that’s a whole nother situation. JJ: Okay. So, they came in and they beat up everybody? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Took ’em to jail. Right. Terry was actually in a coma for more than two or three weeks. I’m not even sure how long, because, when he came out of it, we didn’t have any more contact. And I remember Terry from -- we were in the same grade in grammar school. But I think Terry was trying to show everybody else that he wasn’t scared. And they beat him senseless. He was a little guy, a really little guy. [00:25:00] And I think his father was a doctor, or something, a dentist. JJ: So, what did they say, did they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) fight with him or something, or --? WR: I have no idea if they fought back. That’s something you need to talk to Shea about. Because I wasn’t there, I mean, this is secondhand information. And everybody told me a different story, because Terry was the one beat senseless. I remember Big Moody said, “Everybody just shut up, take it, we will be out of jail 14 �in a little while.” Terry wanted to be Superman, and he was beat senseless. I don’t think I interacted much with him after that. JJ: Okay. That was the first raid. The other one that you were -- WR: That might have been the second raid. JJ: It might have been the second? WR: Right. The first one -- JJ: And you said there were eight of them, these are the two that you -- WR: Oh, I didn’t say there [00:26:00] were eight, I said there were two that I knew of. JJ: Two of them that you knew of. WR: Right, right, I cannot count -- JJ: I stand corrected. (laughter) WR: Please, please, I don’t even know where you got that number from. JJ: I thought I had heard it somewhere. WR: Right, that’s like a rumor. JJ: Okay. (laughter) WR: Right, right, right. And I remember there was another raid that everybody was preparing for that didn’t happen. I remember seeing the movie with one or two people that I knew that are, you know, “We packing up for the raid,” you know, “we getting ready,” you know, everybody’s loading up, I don’t even know if that even happened. But there was another raid. I think that raid was -- I don’t think it did as much damage to the office as the one that I’m talking about. They just took some guys to jail. A lot of times, the situation was [00:27:00] to stop, harass, and jail. As many times as we had Panthers going to jail, it depleted 15 �resources. You know? So, it was more or less, you know, if you see yourself in a situation, best thing to do is shut up. So that it doesn’t become more serious than need be. But a lot of it depleted our resources because those people that were making contributions, they were used to get people out of jail. So that meant that there’s less money that I could do for the breakfasts. Which is another reason that we set the breakfasts up as a corporation, so that there would be other people involved other than Panthers. Although I let everybody know, it was Free Services Incorporated, we had the priest, we had a lawyer, Lucy Montgomery was on the board. JJ: [I remember Lucy, yeah?]. WR: Those are the ones that I can [00:28:00] remember. Jeffrey Haas, the lawyer, -- JJ: -- was on the board? WR: He was on the board, right. Those are the ones that I remember. But most of my interaction with the board people was probably me and the treasurer. Because we got checks made up, set up a bank account so that people could write checks to Free Services. It was incorporated and nonprofit. I didn’t understand the 501 process, and we never got to that, but we were still a nonprofit. Because, as I approached grocery stores, and people that had resources, the first thing they said is, “Who can I write a check to?” Well, you can’t say “The Black Panther Party.” I’m not even sure that we had a bank account at the time. So -- that was why the breakfast was incorp-- JJ: You mean the Panthers? WR: Right, that was why the breakfast was incorporated. 16 �JJ: -- [you were never incorporated?], were there (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? [00:29:00] WR: Huh? I’m not totally sure, [when I talked to Russ?], they very well might have been. JJ: Oh, they could’ve been, yeah. ’Cause (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). WR: Right, they very well could have been. JJ: [Definitely?] well-structured, yeah. MELANIE SHELL-WEISS: I’m going to ask you a question, how did you join the Panthers? Just to back up a bit. WR: I was at Circle. It was my first year at Circle. And, actually it was a perfect storm. 1968. There was a guy running Socialist Party ticket. Young Patriots used to hang out, there in the peer room. Plus, it was right after King had gotten killed in April. So, a lot of the stuff that was going on ’66, ’67, ’68, I was too young to be a part of. [00:30:00] So, when I got to the campus, and saw that there was another step, you know, it’s kind of like, “Okay.” And [Chuckles?] was at Circle. Chuckles was [Christine Amett?]. She was at Circle. Chuckles and I became friends. But the other thing is, while I was at Circle, I also had a dance group. And we had done two or three events. We were asked to do an event -We were on stage with some Panthers, and the other folks that were dancing backed out. And it ended up being me. So, originally -- let me back up, get the continuity straight. The dance kind of got us involved in doing some [00:31:00] more Black stuff. Also, Chuckles is at Circle. And she kind of challenged us to all come by the office, and at least come to one political education class. Once 17 �we came to one political education class, the other folks from the dance group were kind of backing off, but it was so mind-boggling to me, because it was kind of like the next step after [King?]. Because I still have that image in my mind, it would have been my last year in high school, it was ’68 when King got killed and the National Guard were lined straight down Cottage Grove. They were all standing there, weapons at the ready. And the whole image of this, I think riots probably broke out on the [00:32:00] west side. It didn’t on the South Side. But the image of the National Guard standing here with weapons ready to protect property never left me. So, here we are in September. I’m at Circle. I used to be a good student. I wasn’t that great a student at Circle. I had a French class and the instructor didn’t even speak English. And I was getting involved in more extracurricular activity, beside the dancing. There were some Black and white issues, but, actually, at Circle, there were more political issues. Because there was so many political issues being discussed. And I think the perfect storm is, everywhere you went, [00:33:00] everybody was asking you, “What are you doing to save the world?” You know? “Are you just going to school, are you just doing this, are you just doing that?” Until it was the climate. Then, like I said, with Christine Amett, with Chuckles being there, she looked like a little [gem?]. You know, she had the boots and the fatigues and, it’s like, “Oh, okay.” Go to one political education class. I went to a political education class, and the guy teaching it was, his name, we called him “Teach”. I’d never heard anybody so profound. It’s kind of like, “Oh, okay.” So, between Teach, and Chuckles, and disenchantment with -- there was also a priest. A priest on the South Side that 18 �was trying to make Ashland the division line to stop Black [00:34:00] folks from moving past a certain point, because of the white flight from Black neighborhoods. And, there was also an issue with contract buyers, which was actually in my neighborhood, just a little further down. Several Black folks had bought homes on a contract buyers-type thing, where, if you got behind two or three months, they put you out. They take your house. So, you’ve got all of these things, you know, operating, kind of percolating. It’s kind of a perfect storm. Then you have the Vietnam War. I was actually dating a guy at the time that was in -- He used to call me. I can’t think of the name of the co-- He was in Vietnam, but it was a city [00:35:00] in Vietnam, because he used to call me every Sunday. And there were guys that were coming back, that had a lot to say about the issues of Vietnam. Why were they there? And they couldn’t go downtown and eat a hamburger or go to, like, [Ronny’s Steakhouse?]. If you were downtown after a certain time, it’s kind of like, okay, nobody beating you up. But they’re basically letting you know that you’re not welcome. Because Vietnam was my era. So there was a lot of people that we knew between ’66 and ’68 that were going to Vietnam and were coming back thoroughly dissatisfied. Some were coming back drug addicts. Many were coming back missing limbs. And the whole issue was, “What are we fighting for?” So I think all of that [00:36:00] together is kind of like, it comes back to, “Okay, now what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing?” And Teach put a lot of things in perspective. As we started to read about colonialism and international racism. So, it just seemed like, “My goodness, we can’t even live in this world unless we 19 �change it!” So that was my introduction to the Panthers, and I just kept getting further and further. Does that answer your question? Yeah. JJ: Okay, so -- Teach is doing PE classes, huh? How were they done? I mean, I remember -- was this at the church on the west side, or -- WR: No, this was at the office. JJ: [00:37:00] Oh, this was at the office. So how -- WR: This was at the office. JJ: How was that being done? I mean, what -- WR: Well, if you didn’t do your homework, it wasn’t being done. I mean, he’s kind of like, he’s teaching -- JJ: Okay. So he gave homework, is that what -- WR: Frantz Fanon, it’s like, you’re reading literature to put you up on. It was, Frantz Fanon, [it was?] The Wretched of the Earth, and -- JJ: You had to read it and you’d come back and report, or --? WR: We had to discuss it, we had to listen to him break it down. I would say that he was probably an actual teacher. You know? He was profound in a lot of the conclusions he drew. Talking about the struggle of Shea, talking about Frantz Fanon, talking about Marx and Lenin. Some issues I have with Marx and Lenin, but a lot of the other stuff, it was the reality when you, you know, began to define [00:38:00] classes and how people separate themselves. It was so much more history, and assessment, of world politics, than I’d ever heard. And I was a student. I was studious, I wanted to know. So I think that’s what piqued my interest, so -- And then, even studying the difference between a Marcus Garvey 20 �and a W. E. B. Du Bois. I mean, there’s so, so many struggles, and infighting, which, until you actually focus and become aware, it’s kind of like, you can look at the world and just pass through it, or you can look at the world and see the landscape. And it was kind of like, suddenly there’s a landscape [00:39:00] that I didn’t know existed, and an interpretation of the landscape, because you’re watching all of the other things happen. I don’t know if -- Of course as you get older, you see more in the landscape than you did. Okay? But that’s also looking back. You can always see more looking back. But, to even realize that, you know, you just don’t go through life bumping into stuff, sometimes you have to step back and look at how things are constructed. And see if there’s a way to deconstruct something, because racism -- Racism was so deep that it was a reality in a lot of people’s lives. You know? It’s the same thing as me going for an interview, and, you know, little white lady just putting my resume to the side. Or putting it in the [00:40:00] garbage. She didn’t beat me up. Nobody hung me. But all she did was to stop me from having an opportunity. And it goes down, just that small, to even larger things, but it’s a way of thinking, it’s a way of looking at things, it’s a way of interpreting things, and it’s a way of doing that people don’t even realize that they do. And, it’s like, I guess that’s institutionalized or internalized. And it’s looking at that, saying, “Well, how do you change that?” You’re gonna have to attack institutions, because they’re the ones that are teaching certain things. But it also goes deeper than that. And I guess after looking at all of that, it’s like, “Okay, there’s more. [00:41:00] There’s more to the iceberg than the tip.” So, are you gonna help change it? Are you just 21 �gonna be a part of it? And actually, the way I was raised, I pretty much didn’t have to pay attention to it. Because I think adults try their best to put you in situations where they will take the brunt of it. But at a certain point, everybody needs to step up. That’s just my opinion. JJ: Okay. So, you had all these things for the breakfast program, [where you said?], the office. All these things for the breakfast program, [they were?] -- WR: Used to be. In the office. JJ: Used to be in the office. WR: Uh-huh. JJ: Did you set up the Panther breakfast program? WR: Yes I did. JJ: Okay. And can you explain how you [started?] doing that? WR: It was really all by accident. Actually, [00:42:00] I sang in church. I think that summer, I sang at someone’s funeral. Someone I didn’t know. But she was close to my age. When I joined the Panthers, there was someone else that, we were supposed to be doing it together, [Barbara Sankey?] and I. Barbara wasn’t really that into it, but she could drive and I couldn’t. So, the first person that I met, I went to [AMP?]. It’s like, “Well, we may as well go to somebody that has food,” you know, “we’re not really sure what we should do,” what the approach was. I remember talking to Fred, like, “What am I supposed to do?” You know, “Do we call [the coast?], do they have a manual? I mean, how does this --” Anyway, we didn’t really get any instructions, but I went [00:43:00] to AMP. And, at this time, PUSH had made a big issue about there being -- 22 �JJ: Operation (inaudible) PUSH? WR: Operation P-- JJ: Jesse Jackson. WR: Wait, it wouldn’t have been Operation PUSH, it would’ve been Operation Breadbasket. JJ: Okay, Operation Breadbasket. WR: Had made a big issue about having middle management and corporate America. So, a lot of, like, Sears, and places like that, had community people. People that were supposed to deal with the community. So, the community person that I’d met for AMP, said he wanted to meet me in my office. He was the only person that ever came to the Black Panther office, you know. It turned out that I sang at his daughter’s funeral. I had no idea. You know? So, some things are by happenstance. But it was his daughter that had drowned, and I had sung at [00:44:00] her funeral. So he remembered me, I had no idea who he was. So, we started talking and he was the first one that I had talked to that even took me serious. And we went on his list. And he introduced me to other people. He introduced me to Daryl Grisham at Parker House Sausage. He introduced me to somebody over Pepsi-Cola, that we got him to pay another Sausage person, so that I could just pick up the food. We tried to arrange stuff so that -- I preferred not to take money directly, I would prefer to take the food, so, “You pay for this, let me go pick it up.” And it was [Hyman Johnson?], it was this guy, that actually introduced me to four or five other people that were [00:45:00] peers, and his situation, that actually got me started on, “These are the people I need to 23 �approach, this is what I need to do.” You know, writing a letter, doing whatever I needed to do, it was actually him that put me on to that, so that -- Let me see. The barbecue guy, [he used to even?] call if I was late -- Argia B. Argia B Bar-BQ. Parker House Sausage, Metropolitan Sausage. There was a Star grocery store over on the west side that -- They were just people that he introduced me to, and then I followed up, and just kept doing what I was doing till I got to the point, we were probably picking up, maybe, 4 or 500 dollars a week, worth of food, and then just dropping it off at the breakfast program. You know, [00:46:00] one or two of ’em, we could store it there. Others, like I said, I would pick up, I’d leave it at St. Dorothy’s and then drop it off there. This was the first place we had a breakfast program. JJ: At St. Dorothy’s? WR: No. Here. St. Dorothy’s, I’m saying, we had the stuff. JJ: Here? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: 1512 South Pulaski, Better Boys Foundation. JJ: Oh, Better Boys Foundation. This (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: This was the first place we had a breakfast program. Yes. JJ: And so, are they doing this every week, they’re doing a donation every week, or how is that -- WR: Every week. I’m begging every week. JJ: You’re begging every week? But is it the same storeowners, or --? WR: Many of them, it was a matter of just managing it, at a certain point. Okay, maybe some every other week, maybe some every week. Later on, there was a 24 �guy that -- [Sauk?]. Mortgage banking. I don’t even remember [00:47:00] where he came from. I remember having a conversation with him, and then going down to his office. I tried not to take money. I took money when money needed to be taken, but he had arranged for me, I’d pick up 90 dozen eggs. And he sent me somewhere to pick up 200 pounds of hamburger. That would be once a month. So it depends on what the donation was -JJ: So you had, like, a schedule from different people. WR: I had a schedule, and I just tried to work it that way, and keep extending it. But I begged everybody. The real reality, that it took me a minute to process, was when I approached Clement Stone. And I never even knew that I was talking to Clement Stone. JJ: Clement Stone? Okay. WR: We had set up a meeting at [00:48:00] [Stone and Brandale?]. I was talking to his guy -- JJ: Who was Clement Stone? Briefly. WR: Clement Stone was a multimillionaire. Little short white guy with a real strange mustache. JJ: McCormick Seminary was named after him, too. So, that seminary we took over. But ahead, (inaudible). WR: I don’t know how he made his money. But I know that it was Stone and [Brale?] - JJ: But you met with him. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: I met -- well, yeah. Yeah. He was in the room. 25 �JJ: For the -- okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: He was in the room, I was actually talking to his guy (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). And, I think they deepened my commitment to do something for Black folks. Because, when I met with them, I had, you know, I put the corporation together. It was Free Services. And whoever I talked to always said, “This is an arm of the Black Panther Party,” but, you know, blah blah blah blah. And, [00:49:00] we were at a conference table, Clement Stone was sitting at one end, he never said anything. I didn’t even realize it was him, until later, when I saw him on an interview. And I’m like, “He was sitting there that whole time!” Anyway, [Woodward?] said, “Now, we can see funding your program. The problem here is that you are much too political.” Now, we’d been assisting youth groups like the Vice Lords, over on the west side. We gave them 100,000 dollars. JJ: But you were too political. (laughs) WR: We gave them 100,000 dollars. And, at that time, the Vice Lords actually had set up an office and were trying to do some stuff. He said, “Now, if --” JJ: (inaudible) WR: “Now, if you were into more gang activity, [00:50:00] extortion, or things like that, that we could justify rehabilitating, we can fund your program from year to year.” They offered 14 grand to fund the program, and I’m sitting here, like, just dumbfounded. I don’t believe that this white guy just told me that if we go out and extort or kill some Black folks, we can come back and get paid. Because this is, you know, I’m just sitting here, and I said, “Would you say that again?” 26 �You know, and I went and sat out, couldn’t sit in the car ’cause I couldn’t drive, I didn’t have a driver’s license. You know, I’m just dumbfounded, so -- “So, in essence, you will fund my program if we get involved in some illegal activities.” He said, “Yeah!” I was like -- (laughter) And I was just dumbfounded. I was really dumbfounded, because it was such a, you know -- [00:51:00] A lot of times, you know, you get folks blaming everybody for the condition, and, well, you know, “If I had the opportunity,” or, “This guy is stopping me from this, this guy is stopping me from that,” you’re kind of like, “Well, damn!” There’s a certain point where everybody needs to take responsibility for certain things they need to do. But then, you know, you sit back and, okay, he’s creating situations where you got Blackstone Rangers, and then you have the Gangster Disciples. South Side, southwest side. Then you got west side, Vice Lords. Okay, now, when they kill each other, the last man standing gets the money. So now, you have gangs that are fighting over white money. In order to be rehabilitated, [00:52:00] you got to be the baddest gang, you got to be the last one standing. But for him to overtly just say, “You know, if you were involved in more illegal activities --” I’m just sitting here, like, “I don’t believe you just made this offer.” And I think it really pushed me, if I had any doubt. JJ: So he wasn’t being facetious, he -- WR: He wasn’t being facetious. He was being for real. And, for a minute, it almost went over my head. Because that’s the other thing, too, is that, you know, this is my first time being an adult. Okay, I’m out in the world. I’m not that far away from -- I’m only 18! I’m not that far away from, you know, and I still have to go 27 �home and ask my mama for something, or else I won’t have nothing to eat. So this is the real world, this is the real world of how we make money, how we keep money, how we keep money away from other people, [00:53:00] or how we do business. This is the real world that I’ve never experienced. And, to listen to someone just say, you know, “This is our plan. We’ll rehabilitate you, but you got to kill s-- you got to do some bad stuff.” And I’m sitting here like, “You know, you never could have told me.” As other people had said, well, you realize that sometimes white institutions set up situations where Black people can destroy each other. And I went, “Y’all crazy.” But he’s telling me, you know, “You want the money, this what you got to do.” And it brought some things into vision. To see, not only that, but also I understood more with global economics, because there’s some stuff that Teach was saying that was [00:54:00] over my head, about how the British were playing the Indians against each other. And I understood how the British and the Dutch were playing tribal wars against each other. I didn’t understand that before, because nobody had ever said, “Here’s tribal wars, do it.” And, you know, “We’ll pay you off.” So it gave me a whole different perspective of what capitalism is, or, how it survives. Because it has to survive by division. But somebody has to be making money. And I never thought of people seeding money in order to create conflict. So, I mean, that gave me a whole different perspective. All of a sudden, it’s like, you know, it’s one of those moments of epiphany. It’s like, “Oh, okay. This is what the world is fighting over.” Because even, [00:55:00] you know, with so many regimes in Africa, that, even when you threw the Dutch out, or the French, or the English, 28 �you were still fighting over Western concepts. Because now, everybody got a color TV, and a Cadillac. They don’t want to go back to the huts. So now, you’ve got a people that are fighting over keeping this from, you know, and you have natural tribal wars, that, you know, “This my land, this your land, and we’re gonna fight over it till it can be --” But now, you’re fighting over Western values. And the division that has been created, you know, to even think about something like Rwanda. You know, with the Tutsis and the -- To even think about how long that division had been planted. [00:56:00] How many years it took to develop something like that. To think about how vicious the Dutch were. I guess, like I said, it almost went over my head until I just had this epiphany, and I’m sitting here, saying, “This man really said this.” So it created more vision, politically, to even see the politics at work. And what it takes in order to maintain the stability of capitalism, is to create unstability in many other spaces, so. That was my epiphany. JJ: Okay, now -- My understanding -- but you didn’t write any proposals, to get [money?]. WR: No. No. JJ: Did you do that on purpose, or --? I mean, it would’ve been easier just to write some [00:57:00] proposals -- WR: Well, first off, I didn’t know about proposals. Okay, so I didn’t know. I think these were the first people that presented a proposal to me. Now, I did write beg letters. That’s different. I wrote beg letters. “We’re doing this, we’re doing this, this is what we need, tell me where to pick it up.” Proposals, no. 29 �JJ: Okay, the reason I say that, I thought that I -- you know, we had a breakfast program, too, but we were trying to get as many businesses as possible to build a base, also, there. Were you also -- I mean, we were learning from you, so, I mean -- WR: Well, you know, by the time you all came for information, I had more. Because, when I first started, I didn’t even have a concept of what a proposal was. I could’ve written one, but I didn’t know. You know, I just thought you had to do a beg letter, show up, and somebody’d give you food. [00:58:00] So, it was a bitby-bit process, but I’d never got to the proposal stage. JJ: I mean, we didn’t write any proposals either. It was working very well, just going from store to store. Ma-and-pa store to ma-and-pa store, yeah. WR: More community-based. And I guess, like, the other thing was to have a bank account, and to have -- JJ: But you weren’t thinking ma-and-pa stores, you were thinking -- WR: Well, only because of my first introduction, which would have been back to Hyman at AMP. You know, that was an accident in and of itself, that he would be a kind of big shot at AMP and take me to other places like that. That was purely by accident. It wasn’t something that I would have figured out. That I had figured out. I might have figured it out later, but I didn’t figure it out then. So that was basically at his behest, [00:59:00] and the other thing that he would do is that we would go to AMPs in the city. He would go to the back, and just tear some labels off stuff, and say, “This damaged. You need to give this to them. This damaged.” So, how he set me up might have been to get merchandise that was 30 �damaged, or that was beyond its sell date, initially. And then after that, now with the guy at Pepsi-Cola -- and because I never really took money-money, if at all possible, I had them reinforce each other. There was another Black sausage company called Metropolitan. Well, I had the guy at Pepsi-Cola pay them, so that I could go there and pick up food. When we picked up food at any other place, [01:00:00] if the opportunity presents itself, don’t give me anything, give it to them, just let me go get the food. So, how they talked to each other, I don’t know. But I found that it was easier and appeared more legitimate to them for me not to -- I handled money, but I handled as little as possible. As little as possible. Most of the time I was just going to pick up food. There’s a lot that we did not get from neighborhood stores, because they were neighborhood stores, and they were only gonna do so much. And we were picking up [centers?], but, like I said, if it had not been for the very first guy that I talked to, I don’t think I could have gotten on that road so quick. MS: Why did you not want to handle the money? WR: Well, first place, I didn’t want anybody asking me for money. Which would have been folks in the [priory?]. And second off, my imagery is, if you see how far 50 [01:01:00] dollars can go, maybe you need to give up 100. Just let me have product. Product is the most important thing that I can have. And, 50 dollars, God, I remember somebody offered me 50 dollars, like, that’s not gonna do anything, why don’t you give that guy 50 dollars and see how much product I can get from that. Normally I could get more if I let them pay for it. That’s why. Plus, it was easier for nobody to ask me for any money, you know, because 31 �sometimes when I came back to the office, you know, everybody, “You get anything extra?” “I ain’t got no money.” So, we don’t have that issue, and then it made accountability a lot easier, because the priest that I had that was the treasurer, he was always nervous. Like I said, I pushed him beyond where he wanted to be, but he was still a good guy. He was a good guy. JJ: When you were setting up, did you only have [01:02:00] the breakfast program in one location, or --? WR: It started here. 1512 South Pulaski, and then we had one right down the street from the office, at a church. I cannot remember the name of the church. Then we had another one on the North Side, St. Dominic’s. Then we had one on the South Side, that the [Old Troop?] -- there was a group of fellas called the Old Troop, [Oba?], [Ade?], [Little Ide?], [Big Ide?], [Ogum?], and they were from the projects, Ida B. Wells. They set up something at the fieldhouse, where we had a breakfast program there. And then there was a breakfast program at a church, which, I’m not the one that initiated where they were. People from the Party would [01:03:00] go out and talk to folks. There was a church at 64th and Harvard. We had a breakfast program there. And we had a breakfast program -I think the name of the other church might’ve been St. Andrews, I can’t remember. I think there were two more that I can’t remember right this minute, but, at the point that I was backing away because I had gotten pregnant and I was about seven months pregnant, and they said I needed to sit down. I think I was doing about five or six. And it was still just, picking up stuff, dropping ’em off. 32 �JJ: So you [supplied it all?], basically. So that’s why you were trying to get more donations, where -- we just had one main program. Can you describe how the programs ran? WR: [01:04:00] Well, let me see. Get there at five o’clock. Make sure pots and pans are clean. We always had somebody on grits, somebody on meat, somebody on eggs. Drop the stuff off. Spark the kitchen up, by seven o’clock, at that point, the kids are coming in. Generally, the most important thing -- I guess it was two things. The food and the cook. Generally, there was always one person at each site that would actually be in charge of who’s gonna do what. And the kids came, the kids came slowly, but bit by bit. There was one person at each site. I remember [Ace?] was the one at the site over on the South Side. Because this was the first, [01:05:00] we were all there. The duties just got split up of what you had to do. Because, mostly, the men would be the one that would be serving and greeting the kids. And we would be back in the kitchen. Normally, at least three, four people in the kitchen. I still remember, we would get a ride from the South Side. And it was O’Neil. O’Neil would pick up me, and -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the police -- the informant, the informant. WR: Right. Me and [Sam?] -- JJ: The informant that set up the whole thing where -- WR: Fred’s murder. JJ: Fred’s murder, yeah. WR: Right, right. But O’Neil was the one that would pick us up, because we were south, pick us up and take us to one of the breakfast programs. And then I would 33 �be at the breakfast program, and from there, I would go to the office. Find someone to drive me. And then be out in the street the rest of the day. [01:06:00] Picking up, calling, doing whatever I needed to do. I had a South Side place I would call from, and that would be at Sammy Rayner’s office. At the time, he was an alderman. And his office would pretty much be the one I would work from. Making calls, either there or else at the Panther office. JJ: Oh, he let you use your office, Sammy Rayner? WR: Yes. Sammy was a good guy. JJ: Okay. What about the kids? I know in ours, we had songs and [that?]. Did you do any type of education with them, or? (inaudible) [the staff doing that?]? WR: I didn’t interact with the kids a lot. JJ: [Okay. What else?]? WR: But the kids, we didn’t do political education classes with kids. We did sing songs. Okay, we would do like, “The revolution has come,” [01:07:00] you know, they would do that and there was -- JJ: “Time to pick up the gun,” that’s -- WR: There you go. JJ: That’s political. WR: There you go. JJ: Isn’t that political? That’s -- WR: Well -- JJ: (inaudible) our nation, isn’t it? 34 �WR: I think it could be all of the above, but when I say “no political education classes,” the information wasn’t there yet. JJ: Okay. WR: You know, now, we would get, sometimes, the kids’ parents coming to political education class, where you can get information. You know, just doing, singing songs, I mean -- JJ: So the parents were aware that their kids were singing [songs?] WR: Parents were aware. Some parents would walk their kids there. JJ: So they wanted (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Right. ’Cause I didn’t look at that song any different than I did Motown. You know? It’s kind of like, it’s just a song. (laughter) Okay? Now, at some point, you need some depth. Because most of the kids that came were young kids. I rarely saw big kids. I saw more kids, I’d say, from fourth grade and under. Doesn’t mean that there were [01:08:00] no big kids, but most of the time, they would be young kids. ’Cause, I think a lot of the big kids didn’t want to admit that they didn’t have breakfast at home. And we were in the projects. We were in poor neighborhoods. And also, for the west side, if I had an overflow of product that we didn’t want to sit over the weekend, we would go into Rockwell Gardens and give it away. Like, I remember one time, you know, some donations I didn’t know what to do with. You know, if you get 200 loaves of bread, you just can’t sit on it, for, you know, four or five days. So, whatever overflow we had, we would give that away. 35 �JJ: In some of the projects, I know we did that too. Okay so, there was some song, the parents got involved -- WR: Some parents walked their kids -- there’s a lot of parents that at least came to see who we were and what we did. [01:09:00] Okay? And, for some parents, it made them come because we had a South Side office, who would come and sit in on some classes. The political education classes were, in many ways, particularly if Teach was teaching, they were over a lot of people’s heads. Because I had a lot of people say, “I could care less about who Frantz Fanon is. Or who Marx and Lenin is. But if y’all are doing this to help us out, we want to be a part of it.” So, in some ways, you know, some of the intellectual classes kind of turned people away, because everybody wasn’t there yet. But the actual doing what you do, is entirely different, and I think the party had to move beyond [01:10:00] Teach, and some other folks started teaching classes, maybe, that could relate more to the community, because I remember several people, you know, writing stuff down, some people, “What kind of shit is this? What does this mean? What is lumpenproletariat?” You know, and I’m like, “You don’t know?” (laughter) You know. But that was a profundity to Teach. But he was a true intellectual, and he was a committed intellectual. A lot of the stuff, we ended up getting in our own way, and realizing that we needed to break it down, because we were not a lumpenproletariat. We were the ghetto. It’s the same thing, but nonetheless, somebody needs to understand what you’re saying. I know I had to correct a lot of that. And talk to folks -- JJ: So you called lumpenproletariat the ghetto. 36 �WR: Pretty much. It’s poor folks. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Poor folks. WR: [01:11:00] Right, right. JJ: And so -- WR: You know, when you talk about “class struggle,” you know, what is class struggle? Well, in many ways, this is intellectual, but you have an elite that’s trying to be sure that they maintain being an elite. You have working-class. Well, what is working-class? What is middle-class? The things that we considered middle-class really were not in the [realm?]. Making 30,000 dollars a year does not make you middle-class. Making 50,000 dollars a year does not put you in the elite. You know? It’s kind of like you need to define what owning the means of production really means. Do we have factories? Are we producing this? Is this within our grasp? Are we making decisions about embargoes and taxes? I mean, let’s get real with exactly who we are. And it’s interesting, when people call folk petite bourgeoisie, [01:12:00] what does that mean? Why, ’cause you got something at Carson’s? So, there’s terminology that we needed to put in the language of the neighbors. JJ: So why are we discussing this, then? The class struggle and all that, what was the purpose of that? WR: Well, I think that was actually the whole basis of the Party. The Party was still steeped in a Marxist-Leninist type of credo. But I think the basis was -- The basis was racism. But we’re still talking about class. And I think -- JJ: You guys were talking about power, too. You mentioned power. 37 �WR: Well, but that’s what class is. JJ: Was that what -- okay. What do you -- WR: There’s always somebody at the top. JJ: What do you mean, that’s what I’m trying to say. WR: [01:13:00] I guess, I’m thinking of a Spike Lee movie. School Daze. And in the Spike Lee movie, you had the good-hair people, the bad-hair people, the fraternities, the people that were not in the fraternities, you had -- this is all in a college milieu. You had the people from the town, and the people from the college, and all of these people separated themselves. Because the good-hair people thought they were the shit. The bad-hair people thought they were the shit. The light-skinned people, the dark-skinned people. The town people thought that the college people were not speaking to them. The Kappa people [01:14:00] thought the other people had no sense. So here you are, people separating themselves into specific classes. And not looking at the bigger issue, that there is a bigger issue. And there’s a lot of times that Black folks, in and of themselves, create class. Part of it is color. Light skin versus dark skin versus in the middle. Part of it money. You know, when we moved into Chatham, we moved out of a certain neighborhood that was still struggling. But what people didn’t see is those living in Chatham, everybody in my household was working. Two people at the post office, one person doing day work. You know, everybody’s scufflin’. But we are viewing class as in, but we’re not in the projects. We’re one step up. And then the next step up, [01:15:00] maybe a business owner. And then the next step up. But the creation of class, which is 38 �something that Marx talks about, creates the divisions, so that an elite can maintain power. Because by us being divided or suspicious of each other, we never look at, but all the money’s going up. That’s what I look at as class. Everybody always said, “Power to the people,” but I always think it’s more “People to the power”. But that’s what socialism is. JJ: More people to the power? What do you mean? WR: Right. JJ: What do you mean? WR: More people that control those things that define your livelihood. JJ: The power, okay. WR: Right. Okay? Power’s not always money. It’s ownership, it’s [01:16:00] producing goods. Distributing goods. Power is synonymous with being able to control the resources. That basically is what it is, is resources. JJ: So, who controls the resources? WR: You’re asking me? JJ: No, I’m asking you, is that what you’re saying, it’s about who controls the resources? WR: Yes. Yes. JJ: Okay. WR: Yes. JJ: And so, now getting back to the ghetto, and the lumpen, why didn’t you mention ghetto and lumpen before? 39 �WR: I don’t know, it just hadn’t come up. Conversation has to flow. (laughter) I mean, the conversation has to flow! JJ: [I’m starting with the ghetto?] -- WR: Right, it needs to flow, and it just hadn’t come to that point in the river. Maybe it was something that was understood. JJ: Okay. But you did mention that with pride, the ghetto, or something. WR: Yeah. I ain’t got a problem with it, I live in the ghetto. Right. Every day. JJ: [01:17:00] Okay. So you were talking about power to the ghetto, instead of power -- I don’t know what you were saying. (laughter) WR: Now you’re confusing me. JJ: Okay, I’m confused. WR: Yes, sir. JJ: Okay. What are some of the community issues? What did you look at as community issues? That the Panthers in Chicago were working on. Any specific issues, or did you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? WR: I think the medical clinic is probably one of the most industrious things that the Party ever could’ve done. You know, to take the issue of healthcare out of insurance, and out of those that make money, and just say, “Healthcare should be a right.” The fact that they even brought sickle cell anemia [01:18:00] to the forefront. To say, “This is not just something that happens here, this is something that is worldwide. This is something that is -- and it’s obviously racerelated.” Just the whole issue of healthcare, because, I mean, now, 40, 50 years later, when you look at the issue of healthcare being, you have people that have 40 �lost their homes on being sick. Because they can’t afford to pay. You have insurance companies that are -- I mean, the rate of healthcare is unreal. Healthcare should be a right. That’s my opinion. The thing about the breakfast program, I think, wasn’t quite as up-front as the health clinic, but I think it’s a point to say, [01:19:00] “Why should anybody be starving, in a country that has plenty? Why can’t those resources be allocated so that there is no one that goes hungry, and no one that goes without healthcare?” You know, these things should be rights. The things that public aid instituted just with food stamps, and that kind of stuff, why can’t people just walk in and get something to eat? Why should anyone be hungry, with all of the resources that are available? And that goes not -- you know, see, we can only address the urban issues. But when you go, Appalachia, when you go down to some places in southern Illinois, when you go to small towns, you know, we’re addressing an urban issue that is really a people issue of [01:20:00] not allocating resources to assist those that need them. Or, when you do assist those in need, then you make them feel like they’re a drain on you. When it shouldn’t be. You know, when you go downtown, you go behind restaurants, you see people throwing out food that somebody could have been eating. And it was really -- The first time I went to New York, this is much later, I was working on a paper for school. It was the first time, and that had to have been close to 30 years ago, the first time that I had ever seen homeless people waiting for public buildings to open up. ’Cause I had to go to a library or something, and it was this whole line of homeless folks, which, bit by bit, it’s started to become a reality in a lot of the urban situations, 41 �where they’re waiting for public [01:21:00] facilities to open up, so that they can go in, and wash up, and sit around in the heat, and be there all day. Because they had nothing else to do. And I don’t think anybody can tell me that homeless people prefer to be homeless. You know? I don’t understand, in a land of plenty, why resources are not allocated to say that nobody needs to live on the street. Nobody needs to sub-exist. Nobody needs to not have medical attention if that’s what’s required. So, I think that was one thing. The issue of the Party -JJ: Was it on a national level, or local, too? WR: What? JJ: The health issue. WR: I would say that -- JJ: Were you speaking nationally, or? WR: I would say nationally. JJ: Nationally, okay. WR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: So at that time, the Panthers were already [01:22:00] talking about a health issue. WR: Well -- JJ: Today, [though?], it’s a big thing. With the presidential campaign and that. But this was [done?] at that time, it was being discussed at that time. WR: Right. JJ: All right, what were you gonna say? [I didn’t?] -- WR: I don’t know. We need to move on. I get old, I forget. 42 �JJ: Okay, so what was the office like, I mean, you went to the Panther office on the west side, or? There was one on the South Side, too, right? WR: Right. Now, I can’t go into depth on the office, because I was out on the street more. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) MS: Where were the offices? I don’t think we have that on the record yet, so if you could [tell me?] -- WR: 2350 West Madison. I only came in the office to drop off stuff or to make phone calls. JJ: What was the purpose of the office, I mean --? WR: Purpose of the office is, it’s a distribution point of people. Okay? You have political education classes going on, I mean, [01:23:00] it’s where people are meeting, calling, doing whatever they need to do. You have to have a focal point of, where do you meet? Where do you get your marching orders? I mean, the office was the office. You know, for me, all I needed to do was to make phone calls, and then go out and beg some more. The office on the South Side was on 35th Street. It was about, either 223 or 225 East 35th Street. But the office was a focal point to meet, to have classes, to have discussions, to have your marching orders of what you needed to do, central place where the papers came, another reason I didn’t go to the office, stay at the office, is because if they caught me, I’d have to sell newspapers. (laughter) And I’d rather be -- and, you know, when they caught me, I sold newspapers. If you didn’t, you know. [01:24:00] But newspapers was also our only way of survival, ’cause I think you 43 �got a nickel off of each newspaper. So, I mean, it’s still a central point, you know, everybody needs to have a central point to coalesce and define the business of what you needed to do. JJ: What do you mean, “the only way of survival”? Now, you’re still a student, no? WR: No. JJ: Oh, you had dropped out, or you [had?] completed -- WR: Oh, you talking about when I was in the Party? JJ: Yeah, when you were in the Party. WR: When I was in the Party, I dropped out. Right, I think I got through two semesters of Circle, and I dropped out. I went back to school later. But, as far as Circle was concerned, I flunked out. JJ: Did you [finish it?] later, or no? WR: Yes, I did. I went to Loyola. I went to school at night. So I ended up with a master’s from Loyola. But I had a lot of issues there. Nothing like being an exPanther. JJ: What do you mean? WR: When I started working at Loyola, the [01:25:00] FBI came on campus, came to the dean’s office, “Do you know who you have here?” But I put it on my application. I don’t [need that lying on mine?]. JJ: You put, what, Panther, in your -- WR: No, it said, “Have you been involved -- What was your last job?” I was a Black Panther, that’s what I did! (laughter) That’s what I did. JJ: So, [no wonder you’re?] -- 44 �MS: And what year was that? WR: It had to have been 1971, or ’72. It was one of those years. JJ: Yeah, that would make the FBI come. (laughs) WR: Well, I think they were coming anyway, I don’t know. But it’s like, because I was working in a minority program, an EOP program, which, you know, that was something else. It was EAP and EOP programs almost on every college campus right after King got killed. JJ: Briefly, what is [that?]? WR: Educational Opportunity Program. At Circle, it was Educational Assistance Program. JJ: What did that do? WR: It was supposed to take in [01:26:00] inner-city kids that perhaps would not have been able to come through regular admissions, and give them an opportunity to go to school. JJ: Okay, so, you were working doing that? WR: That was my first job, with an EOP program. And the dean’s office was mostly white, but the guy that I was working with was Black. And, the thing about the EOP program was it was supposed to -- we would have classes. I had classes teaching people how to take notes. We’re taking Black kids out of high schools, that all they had was general math. Maybe they don’t know how to write. We had some that even were at a reading level below fifth grade. I have no idea how they got through high school. I have no idea why they aspired to go to college. But it’s not that they’re dumb, they just [01:27:00] have not had all of the 45 �educational tools that’s gonna put them in a situation, “Here we are at Loyola.” I remember showing somebody how to take notes, they didn’t even have a concept, that I’m supposed to listen to somebody and write down what they saying? Why? It wasn’t that important. So, that’s another disaster at many levels, and that is the educational system of moving some kids along that actually could have done more, if they had [ever?] been challenged to be more. There’s a lot of kids that we helped, there’s a lot of kids that we couldn’t save. Because just being on a college campus, at a college level, with other college students, and not being prepared. [01:28:00] You know. Like I said, we had some kids that weren’t even past fifth grade reading level. Which, even if they didn’t get the math, if you can read, you can pretty much get through anything. If you can’t read, you’re at a disadvantage immediately. So, that was an EAP program at Circle, which I was aware of it, and tried to help some of the folks there. Which was another thing that, you know, you’re looking at kids that don’t have a clue. They only have a dream. And there was no supportive stuff in place to help them get through. So, in ’68, there was, like -- (audio cuts) The EAP program there took over 1,000 kids, [01:29:00] because all of the colleges were doing this. King got killed, our kids aren’t getting educated, blah blah blah blah. Within three semesters, there were only 120 left. I flunked out too. And I could have done the work. I can imagine how difficult it was for somebody not to have had enough exposure to be able to do the work. And this was happening in many situations until, by the time I started working at Loyola, I think they had more supplemental classes in place. That they would start assisting and walking the kids through 46 �what they needed to do to survive in school. Because, it wasn’t no joke. You know, you can’t write a paper, saying, “I agree with you. [01:30:00] What else do I need to say?” That’s not a paper. So. JJ: So, some lessons are, the supplemental, I mean, for those kids. You’re saying that the more supplemental programs, they’d assist them, or? WR: Right, right. JJ: [That?] assisted them? WR: This is beyond the Panthers. I mean, this is my life after the Panth-- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Right. Supplemental programs, like teaching them how to take notes, vocabulary, reading, that’s basically all that I worked with. Teaching them how to read, teaching them vocabulary, teaching them how to take notes. Like I said, if you get through those, you can almost do anything. If you can’t read, it’s a moot issue. And a lot of the reading issues was vocabulary. JJ: Okay, so what were you studying there? WR: Poli sci and history. JJ: What is that? [01:31:00] Poli -- WR: Political science and history. JJ: Oh, [sorry?], political science and history. And that’s what you got your master’s in? I don’t know. WR: I got a master’s in urban studies. Like, public administration. MS: And what year did you get your master’s? 47 �WR: It’s either ’77 or ’78, I don’t remember what -- I graduated in ’75, so I got the master’s in ’77. JJ: Do you have any more follow-up on that? ’Cause I’m not even familiar with that. (laughs) MS: With urban studies [and public?] administration? JJ: With the master’s, I don’t know what that -- But -- WR: It’s just school. I mean, I liked school, so it was not a bad environment to be in. You know, I liked school. Everybody has some things that, you know, I was good at school. That’s all. [01:32:00] And, I guess in every situation that you’re in, you began to see the politics of it. The elitism of it. You know, those that are here, those that are here. Actually, David Protess was one of my instructors. He’s the one that was at Northwestern with the wrongful conviction. I think it was his class that actually did some, you know -- I had some good instructors, and then, you know, you just have the regular, you know, white guy with a doctorate, just doing what he does. Trying not to go too far out the box. These are the things we teach, and if you don’t know it, it’s not my fault. JJ: Now, you mentioned that the FBI [01:33:00] came to the campus. That’s what they call “repression,” right? So, what kind of repression was the Panthers in Chicago under? Could you describe that a little more? WR: It’s hard to describe it, because it became a natural way that we were functioning. But we were harassed, we were stopped, we were searched. We were constantly being arrested for very simple things. I remember, there was a 48 �guy that was running for alderman on the Gold Coast. His name was John -Can’t think of his last name. MS: Sorry, I’m gonna pause for one se-- (audio cuts) WR: He was running for alderman, and this had to have been the first part of [01:34:00] 1969. It must have been around January or February or something like that. I’ll think of his last name, I just can’t think of it. Anyway, he’s running for alderman on the North Side, which encompasses Cabrini, but also the Gold Coast. John Stevens, that was his name. JJ: Oh, John Stevens, yeah. WR: And he came to us to ask us to be poll watchers. So, you know, everybody put on their, you know, little black beret and our combat boots, and we’d go -- I’d never seen anything like this before. And I’d never really been a part of the socalled “political system,” ’cause I’d just gotten old enough to vote. We were pollwatching. And, here we are in Cabrini. We saw big white guys, Irish guys, getting out [01:35:00] of limousines, coming into the polls, going behind the curtain, telling people how to vote. They actually had a list. I’d never seen anything like this before. I’ve never seen it since. They had a list where they actually had those people that were on welfare, where, you know, “If you don’t vote this way, we don’t know when your check is going to come.” You know, “Blah blah blah blah blah, let me help you vote.” Any protest that was happening, we got arrested, I got arrested twice. They took us out of the poll for interfering with the process of voting. But these guys were coming in, I’m like, “I can’t believe this! They are coming into the polls, going behind the curtain, showing 49 �people how to vote.” And the unfortunate thing is that you had so many people in Cabrini, and this is after the fact, this is 10 or 15 years after the fact, that I actually was reading some anthropology, [01:36:00] some history, and that kind of stuff, where they were actually talking about the next Great Migration of a lot of Black folks from the South into urban areas. Which probably would have picked up a lot of folks from Robert Taylor, from Cabrini, and that kind of stuff. You have a lot of people coming into the city, in an urban environment for the first time. They were told, you know, “You don’t have a job, you need to go get on welfare,” that kind of stuff. So you’ve got this going on, and then you’ve got guys that they actually have a welfare list. And they’re telling these folks, who don’t have any skills, you know, who are coming here trying to figure out, “How am I gonna live, how am I gonna do --” We have you on our list. This is how you need to vote. You couldn’t have told me that this would’ve happened in the city. I thought maybe something like that, you know, maybe King went through that, [01:37:00] maybe that happened in Montgomery. But, to actually, in 1969, to be in Chicago and to see people come in and just say, “You are on the welfare list, you vote wrong, we’re gonna put you off.” And then, when the police came, they took us. Now, there was a big issue over at the church, which I had to -JJ: Were you, like, kind of protesting them directly at that time? WR: We were poll watchers. JJ: Oh, you were poll wa-- WR: We were supposed to say that, “This is inappropriate, you were doing blah blah blah blah blah, we gonna call the police,” we call the police, and the police come 50 �and take us. Okay, we gonna call the Board of Elections. The Board of Elections called the police, and the police come and take us. Over at St. Dominic’s Church, my understanding, is that Fred was over there, and he got in an argument with one of these big guys. And the guy pulled out a pistol. JJ: On Fred Hampton? WR: On Fred. This was the [01:38:00] voting process. And the police came and took Fred away. You know, “You are impeding in the voting process,” you know, what do you call it when you’re creating a ruckus? And -- JJ: Mob action, or something? MS: Disturbing the peace. JJ: Disturbing the peace, yeah. WR: Disturbing the peace, and something else. You know, they might have held Fred long, they didn’t hold us long, they just took us to the police station to take us out of that situation. And then when we came back, it was the same thing, and I, you know, I’m saying I saw limousines drive up! They blocked the street, got out of limousines, came into the voting place, and said, called off names, “You are here, you are here, you are here. If you want to keep your, then you better vote this way.” And I’m like -- JJ: I mean, they said this out loud --? WR: Yes! Yes! JJ: They didn’t say it quietly to them, they said (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: No, ain’t no whispers. Ain’t no whispers. I’d never seen anything like that before. JJ: And then -- 51 �WR: [01:39:00] I’m not sure if it could function -- Well, I guess, you know, like, for the projects, it probably functions well, because you got people in a contained environment, and you can go right there and they just call names down. JJ: And then they can lose their house, their apartment, at the projects. I mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Well, mostly what I heard was, they might lose their welfare check. Now, I don’t know, that could have been a threat too. That’s not what I heard. What I heard is, “You are on the list and you could lose your welfare check.” JJ: And you got arrested, do you remember what you were charged with, or? WR: We were never charged with anything, we were just pulled out of the situation, taken to the police station, and we have to sit around until somebody said, “Okay, you can go.” And then we went back, and we got arrested again. Until the end of the day, when the voting process was over, and this was the voting process. I’m like, “Oh my goodness!” JJ: Who was the other [01:40:00] candidate, do you remember, or? WR: I do not remember. Obviously, he’s the one who won. JJ: Yeah. (laughter) He’s -- WR: Obviously. JJ: He was with the machine. WR: He’s the one that won, and this was with the old Daley. But it was John Stevens who was running. JJ: Oh, the old Daley. WR: Yeah. 52 �JJ: Yeah. [Old American?]. WR: It was John Stevens that was running. And I think he probably maintained a livelihood as an activist, pretty much, so. But that left an indelible mark, too, about racism, just how deep it goes. And then about classism, and that is what people do to maintain power. And it’s scary. It’s scary that [almost is?], you know, that’s an instance of repression, but I think that we thought, if we were in enough situations where [01:41:00] people would see the contradictions, and the realness of not only what they don’t have, but what they should have, that it would make a difference. At the same time, I think youth got in the way. Because, in many ways, I don’t think we were showing people something they hadn’t seen. Because I think about the many things that my parents might have protected me from. It’s not like -- Racism wasn’t a secret. You know, you live with it. And in many ways, parents would put themselves in front of you as often as possible. So, you know, there’s a thing of youth, that we’re saying, “Well, we just wanna show you how bad it is.” It’s kind of like, “Wait a minute, there’s a lot of folks out here that know how bad it is.” But the next point is, can you stand [01:42:00] up to it? And push it back. And that was the reality, is that we just kept standing. So, at that point, you know, the police had to push back. They had more firepower. They had to push back, because we didn’t step back, as a lot of our parents might have stepped back, we weren’t stepping back. But we weren’t meeting them in firepower, we’re meeting them in moral power. And, you know, the reality is, like I said, I don’t think that we exposed things that our parents were not aware of. I think that that was what they were trying to keep us 53 �from. So. But yes, you know, there was unfairness, there was repression, there was -JJ: What other sorts of repression? [That was a?] -- WR: [01:43:00] I’m not sure we’re getting that, [either?], I mean, repression is to bleed your resources. JJ: Okay. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Or to physically abuse you. I don’t know any other type of repression. You know, and -- JJ: I think I missed that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: And bleeding our resources is what they were doing. JJ: [And they’re?] misusing their [word, obviously, or?]? WR: [What?]? JJ: (coughing, inaudible) I mean, you know, what I meant was arrest. What other reasons (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: Right, well, and see, arrest, to me, is bleeding your resources. Because -- JJ: Okay. [That’s what you’re?] (inaudible)? WR: Right. That’s what I mean by constantly arresting people. Here we are, calling for money to get out of jail. Okay, they bleed your resources that you could have done something else with. And then, the physical abuse. Although they didn’t beat everybody up, you didn’t have to. You know, a lot of it is just bleeding [your?] resources. JJ: I meant harassment, [I got?] harassment in between [the two?]. So (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 54 �WR: Yeah. There’s harassment, you know, there’s, “I know who you are, I know what you do, I’m watching you.” I was -- JJ: [01:44:00] That’s what I mean, more like harassment. WR: Right. I was picking up a bunch of food with somebody from the Young Patriots, because Fred told me I needed to ride around with them and show them what I do. We had stuff that we had left in the car. We were on South Chicago. We got out the car to go across the street, we were on our way to Rayner’s office for me to make more calls, [and I get?] pickups. When we came out of the office, they had broken into the car and taken the food out. And, you know, two white guys with their little funny, funny hats on, waved at us as they passed, as we were coming across the street. They’d just busted in the car and taken the food out, and they just waved at us. But those things, we expected, so it was hard to really, it’s like -- [01:45:00] It’s repression, but it was an expectation. Because like I said, we had put ourselves in a situation where we would not back down. And I think in many ways the police were trying to create a situation for us to back down. And the other thing is that, you know, we’re still kids. So, I don’t think that we were realizing that we shouldn’t have been arguing with the police. We were supposed to be arguing with the president of the United States. Not the police. Because they’re only tools. You know, most of them didn’t have the education we had. They didn’t even know what, they were just doing marching orders. And the unfortunate thing is that we didn’t get past that. Because they were the frontline of the ruling class. So, the police began to make it personal when it wasn’t personal, it was political. You know, it’s [01:46:00] the way the 55 �country is run, it’s the system of capitalism. It’s the whole thing of racism, it’s all of these things. But they’re the frontline that are pushing us back. And they weren’t really the enemy. It was so many more things that were the enemy, and somehow we got caught out, so that some police were taking it personal. And some Panthers were taking it personal, and it’s kind of like, you know, these guys are gonna go home to a family and scuffle the same way that we are. But you’ve got somebody that owns a corporation that’s going to cut off 5,000 jobs tomorrow. That’s who the enemy is. You’ve got somebody that owns a corporation, McDonald’s, that is gonna push the issue for the war to continue in Vietnam. [01:47:00] You’ve got somebody that owns a corporation that is global. They’re trying to set up, that’s who the enemy is, and it’s trying -- but the thing about it is that we can’t get to the real deal, because of the little deal. So, you know -JJ: This is your personal opinion, or has that been discussed among some of the Panthers after that? WR: This was a discussion. I mean, this was a discussion, this is all part of colonialism. This is all part of classism. This is all part of the lumpenproletariat versus the elite. This is all part of that picture. But I’m saying it was reaching the point that where it was becoming personal between police and Panthers. And that was not it. What the guy said is, “We were too political.” You know, this is educating ourselves to see [01:48:00] the whole big picture instead of just looking at the bush. But, that’s not to say the police weren’t repressive. And the interesting thing is that the Afro-American Police League. 56 �JJ: Patrolmen’s League, yeah? WR: Huh? JJ: Patrolmen’s League, or Police League, [whatever?]. WR: Right, right. And I have since done a lot of things with Howard Saffold. I didn’t know [Reggie?], Renault, that well, but I’ve since done a lot of things with Howard Saffold over the years. And he was saying that even during the days of the Panthers, that they were trying to refuse being put in situations to run tail on the Panthers. He said, “These are just young brothers meeting trying to figure out, how can we do it better? What else can I say?” Which was part of their [01:49:00] issue too. But the other thing in talking about policemen was that, we were not always defining them by color, we were defining them by mindset. You know, when there’s those that they bought into it, you know, “These are bad people, they are talking against the government, they are talking about socialism.” Or somebody else said, “Well, you know, if socialism means reorganizing the resources, what’s wrong with that?” So. The police were having a lot of internal struggles. Which was interesting, like I said, that time period was a perfect storm of so many other things that were going on at the same time. That it was kind of hard not to be about something. I’m kind of tired of talking. JJ: Just, one more thing. (laughs) And then we’ll do some final thoughts. Just, ’cause you mentioned the Young Patriots, [01:50:00] and Fred, asking you to take ’em along, to show ’em how you do the breakfast program because, is that what you were trying to do, or? 57 �WR: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so, how was the Rainbow Coalition received? WR: I think we all looked at it -- I can’t say “we all”. I looked at it as, “This is the way the world should be.” I was a little tepid about -- JJ: Was it a big thing, or, I mean, how was it? WR: It wasn’t a big thing. It was just the next step. Because, it’s really what all of the stuff at PE classes, that’s all that it was pointing toward. You know, everything was pointing toward, “We’re not looking at color, we’re looking at mindset. We’re not looking at color, we're looking at capitalism. We’re not looking at color, we’re looking at socialism.” So, it was all moving toward that to begin with. So it [01:51:00] really wasn’t a big deal, it was kind of an expectation. I was a little tepid at first, although I only had one or two interactions with the Young Patriots, because I saw the Young Patriots on campus at Circle. And I don’t remember them embracing Black folks. They were young, poor, white kids, Appalachian whites, off the North Side, which I had never even been to the North Side. You know, there’s a lot of times when you grow up that you’re kind of stuck in the neighborhood that you’re in, ’cause that’s all you know. And at Circle, I think -but then I think everybody is kind of clannish, until they get in a situation that they need to interact. So I had remembered seeing them at Circle. But I didn’t meet any until I was in the Party. And then, when we talked, it’s like, “Oh, okay.” You know, it’s that whole thing of, “Okay, [01:52:00] he’s human.” You know. JJ: [Did you see?] any Young Lords or anything, either? WR: Hmm? 58 �JJ: Did you see any Young Lords or anything? WR: I’m saying, when I met them -- JJ: Did you see any Young Lords? WR: I saw you all coming and going, I didn’t interact. I always remember the red [tams?]. JJ: They were purple. Purple, see, you didn’t remember -- WR: I just remember the red tams. JJ: The purple tams. WR: Purple tams, I’m sorry. JJ: Oh, sorry. The red was the Blackstone Rangers, but, eh -- WR: They were purple, okay. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) purple. WR: I saw you coming and going. Most of the time, you all were meeting, like with central staff, with Fred, with that kind of stuff. I didn’t have any personal interaction, ’cause I was still -- JJ: [But we?] weren’t at the office, we would just come to the office, I mean -- WR: Right. ’Cause I was still getting in and out of the office, I’m trying not to sell no newspapers, if at all possible. (laughter) And that’s the truth, if at all possible. JJ: Okay, but you knew that we had existed with the Rainbow Coalition and that. WR: I knew about that. We discussed it in PE classes. [01:53:00] Fred always talked about the coalitions that he was building. I interacted a few times with Poison and Bob Lee. Okay. And I knew that that was their particular function, was 59 �going out and seeing like-minded people, trying to bring folks together. Bob Lee -JJ: So that was their assignment, [that?] --? WR: That was what they did. That was what they did. You know who I’m talking about. JJ: Oh, yeah, no -- WR: Bob Lee? JJ: -- Poison and Bob Lee, yeah. So, okay, that was their assignment, but -- WR: They were field marshals. JJ: Field marshals, right. Okay. (inaudible) But was that discussed in the Party -- WR: It wasn’t discussed -- JJ: -- the establishing of the Rainbow Coalition, or? WR: It wasn’t discussed blow-by-blow, it was discussed as a natural evolution of, “This is what we need to [01:54:00] do in order to continue doing what we do.” So, like I’m saying, it wasn’t anything unusual, it was a natural progression. That we need to align ourselves with like-minded white folks, with like-minded Puerto Ricans, with like-minded -- Because I didn’t even realize the issue of Puerto Rico, I think, until later. That the issue of them not being a United States territory. But we were aligning ourselves with like-minded people, mostly folks dealing with the socialist platform. Because the whole thing was, we have to move beyond racism and see that the economic system feeds racism in order to maintain divisiveness. So, there we were. It wasn’t a big deal, it was what it should be. 60 �JJ: So there was no -- [01:55:00] ’cause some people said, some people didn’t want it to happen, or something like that, or -- WR: I wasn’t aware of that. JJ: You weren’t aware of it, okay. WR: Right. And that’s not to say that it wasn’t, but it was not the marching order of how we should act. That doesn’t mean, I mean, you know, somebody might have seen you and said, “He’s ugly, I don’t like him.” Okay. That would have been personal. But in regards to the politics, this is where we should be. This is the natural place to be. JJ: Okay, all right. Any final thoughts? [And then we’re gonna?] -- WR: No, I’ve been thinking a lot. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Okay, I appreciate it. Very much, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WR: I’ve been thinking a lot. JJ: I appreciate it -- WR: I’m cool. END OF VIDEO FILE 61 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/34d54297ae0c7dbe6820fc6b67c7a868.mp4 f868a4f5e3df252390d0bcd91c11356b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Wanda Ross vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Ross_Wanda Title A name given to the resource Wanda Ross video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ross, Wanda Description An account of the resource Wanda Ross grew up in Chicago, the granddaughter of migrants from the southern United States. Shortly after she began college, she started attending political education classes taught by “Teach” of the Black Panther Party for Self Defense (BPP). She joined the BPP shortly thereafter. She was chief developer of the BPP’s Breakfast for Children Program. The BPP Breakfast Program was used as a model by other organizations, including the Young Lords and Young Patriots. Ms. Ross remains a community activist in Chicago, putting into practice her reminder that “saving the world” is a lifetime commitment. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Shell-Weiss, Melanie Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/191aaa67419ba89a997e5c95608d4f4b.pdf 9eb6194ae8b0402d79d36c0fe77ad3c0 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Gloria Rosario Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/28/2012 Biography and Description Gloria Rosario grew up in Lincoln Park and Wicker Park during the 1960s, as those communities were becoming unstable, and the forced dislocations had already pushed many of the areas Latino pioneers from their homes. Ms. Rosario describes spending time with a neighborhood branch of the Latin Kings, many of whom were the younger brothers and sisters of Young Lords. Like the Lords, they wore Young Lords buttons and supported the community. Ms. Rosario remembers helping out with the Young Lords’ Breakfast for Children Program and the Emeterio Betances Free Health Clinic. She also recalls the proliferation of drugs that were allowed to flow into Lincoln and Wicker Park during the 1960s and 1970s, undermining the activism and well-being of many of the young Puerto Rican men and women who remained in those neighborhoods. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Your name, your birthday, and where -- GLORIA ROSARIO: Okay. My name is Gloria Rosario. I was born August 18, 1955. My family arrived in Chicago -- I think my dad came in ’49, my mom in ’51. Within those two years, they established -JJ: What town? Where are you from again? GR: They were in Guayama, in Puerto Rico. JJ: In Guayama, Puerto Rico? GR: Puerto Rico, yeah. JJ: Okay. In el barrio in Guayama or -- GR: La Barriada Marin. Yeah. That’s what I remember. JJ: And did you have more family here? Is that why they came here? GR: Yeah. I think this is where my mother’s brother came, her older brother. And my grandmother was here, her mom. And so, that’s where they came from when they came [00:01:00] from Puerto Rico. JJ: And what was the reason that they said that they came? GR: I have no idea. I’m the smallest of the bunch. (laughs) JJ: And you say the bunch. How many siblings? GR: There was supposed to be 15. Nine were passed away. So, six of us were left, my oldest brother Victor, my sister Peggy, [Manci?], [Serreda?], and my smallest brother Frank. JJ: And you said nine -- the reason that they passed away? 1 �GR: They passed on, miscarriages through childbirth, newborn birth. SIDS, most likely. They passed away in their sleep. JJ: So then, your father came here to Chicago, and you were born in Chicago? [00:02:00] GR: I was and my smallest brother. We were the last two out of the bunch. (laughs) JJ: And so, you said Henrotin Hospital, right? GR: At Henrotin. I was born there. JJ: So, where did they first live at when they came here? GR: I believe it was LaSalle Street. What I’ve been told was on LaSalle Street by North Avenue. JJ: LaSalle by North Avenue? And this was back in 1949? GR: Fifty-one, ’52, yeah. JJ: Fifty-one, around ’52. Okay, and when did you start remembering? What was the first memory that you have of Chicago? GR: When I was like maybe a year and a half. (laughs) I remember way back then. Being taken from my house to my grandmother’s where I was babysitted. [00:03:00] I remember going to my mother’s aunt’s house all the time. She was old. She was bedridden. Going to church with my mom to St. Michael’s. JJ: Did you just go to church, or did you attend school there at all? GR: No, I didn’t go to school there. The school I went to was Manierre. JJ: Manierre. Do you know where that -- GR: It’s on Blackhawk and Cleveland. JJ: And so, you went to church. Was it Spanish mass or was it -- 2 �GR: I don’t remember. I really don’t. I just remember going. JJ: But it was at St. Michael’s? GR: It was at St. Michael’s. JJ: And you were going to Manierre school. What was Manierre like? What kind of kids -- what population? GR: Well, I was the only [00:04:00] white (makes quotation gesture) (laughs) in the school in my room. There was two of us, a guy named Michael -- he was a white boy. I remember that because he sent me a real big card for Valentine’s Day. And this was kindergarten and first grade. So, the teacher said she was jealous. I remember her saying that because I got the biggest card. (laughs) But that’s about what I remember from Manierre school. JJ: So, most of the other kids were Black, African American? GR: The majority. JJ: And that was because -- GR: They were African American. I guess the area. JJ: What do you mean the area? What was the area like? GR: Blackhawk and Cleveland, Mohawk and the back of [00:05:00] -- by Blackhawk, North Avenue. At that time there were a lot of Black people living in that area. JJ: Okay, because also you had the Cabrini-Green projects there. GR: They weren’t built, I guess, at the time. That’s why. I don’t think they were built because I had never heard of Cabrini-Green in the ‘60s, late ‘60s, early ‘60s. Never heard of it. JJ: So, you go there at Manierre or you were there for a few years? 3 �GR: At Manierre, I just went to my first grade, and then, we moved from there. Then I went to Newberry. JJ: Where did you move to there? GR: To Orchard, between North Avenue and Willow. JJ: To the Lincoln Park neighborhood, basically. Because the other neighborhood was more like Old Town. Right? Am I correct? GR: The south? Yeah. JJ: Yeah, the south, La Clark, (inaudible) La Clark. [00:06:00] GR: Yeah. JJ: Do you remember them calling it La Clark or no? No? Okay. GR: I have no -- JJ: Recollection. GR: -- recollection of that. JJ: So now, you’re in -- well, they didn’t call it Lincoln Park either. You were just on Orchard and -- GR: Orchard and -- yeah. JJ: Yeah, they didn’t call it by that either. Okay so, now -- are you still going to Manierre, or what’s -- GR: No, I’m going to Newberry School. JJ: To Newberry? GR: Yeah. JJ: And so, you went to Newberry your first grade. Right? GR: Second grade. 4 �JJ: Second grade. Okay. So, how was that, Newberry? What was the difference between that and Manierre? GR: It was different. There was a Boys Club across the street. I can’t remember the name of the Boys Club. JJ: On Orchard? Right on Orchard? (inaudible) GR: Right on Orchard and Willow, yeah, right across the street from the school. JJ: So, [00:07:00] right down the street from your house basically? GR: Yeah, half a block. JJ: So, did you go to the Boys Club? GR: Every day. JJ: Every day? GR: That was what I -- JJ: But I thought it was a Boys Club. GR: -- swimming -- well, it was for boys and girls. So, it wasn’t just boys. JJ: So, there was swimming there? Were you -- anything else that they did there? GR: The arts and crafts after school. They had a small library for books. They had arts and crafts, and they would teach you how to make little things there. They had games, a lot of games. Just regular kid stuff. JJ: But the population, the neighborhood -- how was that? GR: It was more -- it was a mixture there. There was a lot of Hispanics in that area. White, I remember a lot of gypsies living in the neighborhood too. JJ: So, there was a gypsy community there or [00:08:00] -- 5 �GR: Well, not the whole community. But there were some people that were gypsies. More than what I saw before. A lot of white people in that area before that I went to school with. There was a lot of white kids. JJ: Now, at that time, they didn’t have any gangs through, right? Or did they have gangs? Did they have white gangs? GR: They had gangs. But I didn’t see what I see today. You have to have a 38 or a 357 to be in a gang today. (laughs) Before all you needed was two fists. JJ: So, it was just neighborhood? Before it was just like a neighborhood? GR: Yeah. JJ: But did they have white gangs too or just Hispanic gangs? GR: Well, I know they had white gangs because my brother used to talk about them. [00:09:00] JJ: What did he say? GR: How bad they were, their little motorcycles. They used to fight a lot. (break in audio) GR: The only thing that I would see a lot of was the gypsies yelling at their kids not to be talking to us, not to be talking to the other person, not to be -- to me, discrimination was a big word before. Now, it’s so different. That I didn’t take it as that -- I just take it as people that were bad. (laughs) That was it to me. JJ: So, the only other people that you saw at that time when you were young were the gypsies and the Hispanics and the -- GR: The white people. 6 �JJ: -- few whites? And but before [00:10:00] it was a Black community, and now you’re in a different type -- GR: In a mixed, yeah. JJ: -- mixed community in Lincoln Park. So, did you -- how far did you go into Newberry? GR: I think it was the third, fourth grade. Then from there -- no, I went through the sixth grade because the seventh and eighth was the Arnold Upper Grade Center. JJ: Oh, so you went up to the sixth grade and then Arnold as -- GR: Right. JJ: -- like the upper grade center? GR: But I had to change between schools. So, I had left Newberry and I had gone -we had moved. JJ: Where did you move to from there? GR: I think we were on Seminary by St. Theresa Church, right behind there. JJ: Okay. So, you moved up there. GR: And then -- JJ: Over by Armitage and [00:11:00] Seminary up there? GR: Yeah, Clifton. They were across the street from Oscar Mayer School. (laughs) Never went to Oscar Mayer though. I was already out of grade school. JJ: And so, you were already in Arnold and you were going -- GR: No, no, no, Waller. JJ: That was a long walk. Did you walk or take the bus? GR: I used to walk. I walked everywhere. 7 �JJ: So, you’re walking down Armitage or -- GR: Down Armitage -- JJ: And at that time -- GR: -- cutting the streets, Dickens. JJ: -- what kind of people lived on Armitage at that time? GR: There was a big mixture. There was a lot of Polish people living that way. JJ: What year was this about? GR: Sixty-six, ’67, ’68. JJ: Okay. So, there were a lot of Polish people still living there -- GR: Yeah. JJ: -- at Armitage? GR: There still were a lot of -- and we lived on Burling, I remember, in ’61, ’62. That’s where my grandmother died. JJ: Burling and Willow or Burling and Armitage? GR: By Burling and -- in between, right in the middle of the block. [00:12:00] (laughs) Everything’s the middle of the block. JJ: And so, that was on the other side. So, that was still by Orchard. GR: Yeah, it was just two blocks away. JJ: So, who lived there? What type of people lived there? Just trying to get -- GR: Hispanics, yeah. JJ: Mostly Hispanics on Burling at that time? GR: It was a lot of Hispanics. JJ: But that was -- 8 �GR: It was family, put it that way, because all my family lived on the block. JJ: Oh, the whole family? GR: My uncles, my aunts. JJ: So, when you came from Puerto Rico, they started moving in too? GR: They were -- some of them were here already. That’s why my mother came. I think my mother was the only one left in Puerto Rico at the time. JJ: So, would you say when Puerto Ricans came here they came with their families or -- GR: Oh yeah. Just like the other people that migrate. There’s always a family member here already and talks good about the place or that they like it or that there’s work. And they follow. That’s what I believe happened [00:13:00] with my family also. JJ: And they all lived together there on Burling? GR: Just about, if not close to it. JJ: So, otro Guayama? GR: Just about another (inaudible). (laughs) JJ: Okay. So, now you’re going to Arnold School. What was that like? What was Arnold like? GR: I used to have a lot of fun at Arnold. I mean, that’s where I found the other gangs. (laughs) Because I used to associate with everybody. I was never in a gang though personally. JJ: What other gangs did you see? 9 �GR: The Latin Kings and the Latin Queens. The ones they would argue with here the Harrison Gents and stuff like that. JJ: So, what year was this? This had to be later, no? GR: Sixty-seven, ’68. JJ: Sixty-seven, ’68? So, Latin Kings were there and the Harrison Gents. And who did you hang around mostly with at that time? GR: With the Kings. JJ: With the Kings? GR: Because I used to chase my cousins because they were in [00:14:00] gangs, and I used to chase them. (laughs) We were always fighting with them, I was. JJ: With the Kings? GR: I was fighting always with my cousins because of the gangs and stuff that they weren’t supposed to be in those things. JJ: But your cousins were in more gangs? GR: They were in the Kings. JJ: They were in the Kings. But you were fighting with them. So, you were going with the (Spanish) [00:14:18], I guess. GR: Yeah, just about. (laughter) JJ: So, you were like their mom basically (inaudible). GR: Yeah, yeah, I was their favorite cousin, but I was still the one to watch out for at that time. JJ: So, you weren’t in a gang, but you were hanging out with them? GR: No, I would hang out with everybody. 10 �JJ: So, were you afraid of them or -- GR: I just didn’t like the fighting stuff, and I didn’t like anything that had to be negative. I wasn’t a negative person. JJ: And who were they fighting with? GR: Gents or somebody that would come down the avenue or Blacks or whites or whoever. [00:15:00] It would be a motorcycle gang. (laughs) It would anybody that was drunk, anybody that was -- it was just anybody. JJ: It was just fighting with anybody? GR: Yeah. JJ: And you said you were having a lot of fun. What kind of fun? GR: Well, I always had a curfew. And if I would go anywhere, it would be to St. Theresa’s Church. They used to have a lot of quarter parties. The Queens used to rent this club and -- it’s at Belmont and Sheffield. I don’t remember the name of the place. But where -- JJ: You mean a hall? GR: The hall. JJ: Viking Hall? GR: That was Viking Hall? JJ: Viking Hall, yeah. GR: Okay. That was on the next block over. Okay, that was it. Yeah. JJ: So, the Queens used to rent that? GR: Yeah, to have parties there. So, either that, or [00:16:00] I would go down there. JJ: So, the women were the organizers of the dance? 11 �GR: It was this one lady that was -- she was a white lady. She was way older. I mean, she was like a grandma already. So, she was old. They used to organize the girls with the -- and I guess she used to be a Queen or something. That’s where the Latin Queens -- JJ: So, her purpose of organizing the dance was for -- GR: It was really just to keep trouble out of the neighborhoods, just to keep something going. JJ: So, she didn’t get paid by the city or anything? GR: No, no, no, no. She didn’t. She just did it on her own because I guess her daughter was a gang member. (laughs) So, I guess she wanted to keep her on her toes. JJ: So, because up there too where the Viking Hall, the Eagles and the Aristocrats -[00:17:00] they used to use that hall too. GR: Yeah, a lot of people used that hall. I guess it was one of the cheapest in that area. (laughs) JJ: The cheapest to rent. So, a lot of the gangs too used it, rented it. GR: I’m pretty sure they didn’t tell them they were in a gang but -- JJ: But they would -- GR: -- used to use their names or whatever. JJ: Were they usually safe? The dances? GR: Yeah, most likely unless somebody brough alcohol in. Then they got drunk and they got stupid. But other than that, they were just good old parties. JJ: Now, did the Queens and Kings come from other parts of the city? 12 �GR: I think so. I think they’re from Belmont and Sheffield and from Armitage and Sheffield. But they were all associated. Everywhere they would have a party, they would all get together. They would come down to [00:18:00] St. Theresa or they would go over to Viking Hall. JJ: Okay. So now, St. Theresa -- did they organize any dances there? GR: Yeah. The basement that they had over there on Fremont. JJ: You said the Queens did that too, right? GR: Yeah. JJ: But what about the other -- the adults. Do you remember them having any parties? GR: Just the people that would rent the hall to use it for a Friday or Saturday. JJ: They would rent it. But there was always a dance there? GR: Yeah. JJ: You said quarter parties. How does that work? GR: Well, you pay a quarter to get in because a lot of people used to go to that because it was cheap. And then, they just would dance all night there. JJ: So, when you say a lot of people, about how many people would be there? GR: At least three hundred. JJ: At least three hundred? GR: At least. JJ: And these were people from different groups? GR: If they were, they weren’t saying, (laughs) that’s for sure. JJ: Thy wouldn’t say what group? 13 �GR: No. [00:19:00] But it used to be mostly the Kings. JJ: Mostly the Kings when they had their dances? GR: Yeah. The Concerned Puerto Rican Youth Center was across the street. JJ: Because there was a youth center across the street. But I thought that was being run by the Paragons at one time. GR: The old Paragons -- JJ: Mingo -- GR: Mingo Ayala. JJ: -- and those people. Is that the one you’re talking about? GR: Yeah. JJ: So, you’re talking about the Concerned Puerto Rican Youth -- GR: Youth Center, yeah. JJ: -- Youth Center. So, they were throwing parties and that. So, they were raising money for their group too, for their organization or -- GR: Well, I don’t know how that went about. I was on the staff, and I would go to the meetings and stuff. I was the youngest one on the staff. But I never knew -- JJ: So, what kind of things would they discuss at the meetings, I mean (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? GR: As far as discussion, the problems that they were having, what things they had to change, [00:20:00] the attitude of some people that were working there -- JJ: Working at the -- GR: -- at the center. JJ: So, it mostly like to keep their orders? 14 �GR: To keep the -- yeah -- and just to keep it established and try and keep it clean and out of trouble in the neighborhood. JJ: Now, there was a lot of changes going on in the neighborhood, people moving out, and did they deal with those things, or they’d talk about -- GR: Not that I remember. They were trying to keep the kids out of -- after school to stay in one place and not be running around the neighborhoods causing trouble and stuff. JJ: So, it was like an after school -- GR: Yeah. JJ: -- gang prevention program, something like that -- GR: Yeah. JJ: -- except they weren’t preventing any gang, but they were preventing the violence. GR: The violence, yeah. They were trying to do things that -- they would take us camping. Projects -- we went to the Chicago Olympics, which was really great because I was the only one out of the bunch [00:21:00] with a medal. (laughs) JJ: What kind of medal? GR: I got a bronze medal for high jumping, four feet, 10 and a half inches. JJ: Okay, alright. Congratulations. GR: Thank you. That was the old -- and my cousin took it from me, and then, he gave it to my aunt and she’s screaming that it was his. So now, it’s gone. (laughter) And she holds tight to that metal like a life. As long as it’s still there -- JJ: Now, what were some of the other staff? Do you recall any of them? 15 �GR: [Ayla Miranda?], Mingo Ayala. Do you know, I can’t even remember the names right now? I just had a stroke, so that’s got to be the reason why I don’t remember names. I remember the faces. I see them. JJ: Nestor Hernandez? Do you remember him? GR: Nestor, yeah. [00:22:00] (inaudible) Mingo, Nestor, I think Wilson or his brother and -- JJ: Now, see, some of these were in the Paragons before -- GR: They -- yeah. JJ: And they also worked at the YMCA before -- because I worked with some of them. That’s why I know them. So, you’re at Arnold school, and you’re going at the dances too at the same time while you’re at Arnold school? GR: Yeah. JJ: No, anything else that you remember about Arnold school? What about Arnold school? GR: I was a joker at Arnold School. JJ: What do you mean? GR: They only passed me because I had (laughs) honor roll grades in my eighth grade because I had missed 86 days of school. JJ: Why were you missing those -- schools? GR: I was going to school every day, and the teachers would call me from the windows. That’s how it was. And I would tell them, “Wait a minute. I’ve got to watch this. They’re going to fight,” [00:23:00] or something like that. And the 16 �whole class would bust out laughing, things like that. But I wasn’t a bad student. I had really -JJ: Were there a lot of fights at Arnold? GR: Just the regular. (laughs) JJ: Every day? The regular every day? GR: Every other day. JJ: Every single day there was a fight? GR: Well, I mean, before, I guess, the Blacks were also against Puerto Rican people. And there was a lot of that fighting. I mean, when Martin Luther King died, I know my sister got beat up because they thought she was a white. JJ: I remember they were chasing people down the street -- GR: All over, yeah. JJ: -- when Martin Luther King died. GR: In front of the school, yeah. My sister came out of the school. She was a senior or junior. And boom, she got beat up bad because they thought she was a white person. JJ: Okay. [00:24:00] GR: And she kept telling them, “No, no, no,” but she looks white. (laughs) Can’t help that. JJ: But she was going to Waller though? GR: Yeah, yeah. JJ: So, you went from -- Arnold was across the street from Waller. GR: Yeah. 17 �JJ: So, you went from Arnold to Waller? And did you finish Waller? GR: No. From there, I went to Wells, and from Wells, I went to Tuley. JJ: What do you remember of Waller, and what was your experience there besides the -- GR: I used to love the music class because I had all honor roll classes, which I didn’t like because there was nobody there I knew. (laughs) JJ: Because they weren’t interested in studying like you were at that time? GR: I guess. They didn’t have the grade qualifications. [00:25:00] JJ: What made you want to study? GR: I wanted to be a doctor since I was real little. At the age of four or five, I was taking doctor books at the library. (laughs) That’s what I wanted to be a doctor? JJ: I just love medicine. I love helping people. I mean, I help people to this day now, as much as I can. If you need a favor, if you’re sick, I’m there, even if I don’t know you, I’m there. (laughs) But that’s how I’ve always been since I was little. I would walk down the street with my mother. You know, sometimes these old men that drink, fall out, and they’re just out unconscious in the street. I used to tell my mother, “Let my hand go,” so that I can go and see if that person was okay. (laughs) She would get so mad at me. “What if that man jumps up and hits you or hurts you or grabs you?” [00:26:00] “Mom, we’ve got to see if he’s alive. That’s the important thing.” That was my concept of telling her to stay still. JJ: So, did you and your mom walk a lot in Lincoln Park? GR: Yeah. Walking was my thing. I used to play baseball at Lincoln Park. I used to walk to Lincoln Park every day. 18 �JJ: Where you on a team or -- GR: A baseball team. JJ: For what school? GR: It wasn’t school. It was for Francisco Marcano. JJ: A league? GR: Yeah, baseball league. JJ: Francisco Marcano? GR: I played for four years. JJ: Did they have women on the team? GR: That was when they started the women’s teams. And most of the girls from there -- JJ: And these were being done in Lincoln Park? GR: Yeah. JJ: Any other parks? GR: Humboldt Park. They had them all over the parks. I guess it was the Chicago Park District that was going to start these leagues. JJ: So, most of these were Spanish people that were coming. GR: Yeah. [00:27:00] There was Blacks on our team though. There was white, Mexicans, all kind of races. JJ: So, you remember going to the park itself, Lincoln Park. And the lake -- where did you go? Where did the Latinos go to? GR: It was across the street from the bridge where you go to North Avenue Beach. 19 �JJ: Okay, the North Avenue Beach used to be -- it’s Spanish or a lot of Spanish speaking used to go? GR: Yeah, it was a lot of Spanish people. There was a lot of whites too at that time. JJ: It was a mix? GR: Yeah. JJ: A mix at that time? GR: There was all kind of races by then that I would see. JJ: Is it like that now? GR: I think it’s a lot more white people going to the beaches now because I don’t go, that’s for sure. (laughs) JJ: Oh, you’re afraid of that? (laughter) (Spanish) [00:27:50] GR: Not at all. No, I’m not scared of anybody or anything. I had that thing that, in life, [00:28:00] since I was little, if something’s going to happen to you, it’s going to happen to you because. JJ: Because of -- what do you mean? GR: Whatever. (laughter) Either you’re in the way or you caused the trouble or something. JJ: But you had good times at the beach. GR: Oh yeah. JJ: You went to the beach. GR: A lot. JJ: Would you go to the beach a lot? 20 �GR: My aunt has a lot of pictures when we were little. And that’s one of my favorite things of doing when I go to her house is to see the pictures. I was a little Shirley Temple. I had the worst curls in life. (laughs) JJ: Shirly Temple was a role model at that time -- GR: Yeah. JJ: -- I mean, for girls or for women? GR: Well, the curls -- I mean, my hair was so curly it wasn’t funny anymore. And from curly to nappy to worse until I put an afro on my head because I couldn’t tolerate it. JJ: So, you’re in [00:29:00] -- you went from Waller to Wells, you said? Why did you do that? GR: I went to where my dad was at because he had been getting sick. So, my mom and dad lived separately. So, I went to his house. JJ: And he lived where? GR: On Chicago Avenue and Throop Street, Elizabeth, Throop. Over there by -what’s the name of that -- JJ: Chicano Noble, that -- GR: Yeah. JJ: -- ho house over there? GR: Eckhart Park. JJ: So, over by Eckhart Park. So now, did he move from the south to Eckhart Park or no? 21 �GR: No, from Mohawk or Burling, one of the two. He was always over there causing a scene. (laughs) JJ: By Eckhart Park, that area? GR: No, by Burling -- JJ: Oh, by Burling. He was causing a scene. GR: -- and Orchard and stuff. JJ: You mean from drink? GR: He was always causing a scene. But he didn’t sleep [00:30:00] there. (laughs) JJ: What causing a scene -- what do you mean? GR: I mean, drinking and just trying to be a tough man that he wasn’t. (laughs) That’s my father. JJ: But now, he’s sick and he’s over by Eckhart Park? GR: He lost his eyesight there. He worked every day of his life. JJ: How did he lose his eyesight? GR: Waiting for the bus one morning on his way to work. He was diabetic, never took care of it. And it will blind you. Diabetes will blind you. JJ: Was it education, the reason that he didn’t want to take care of it or he didn’t have insurance? GR: I think it was out of laziness. JJ: His laziness? GR: Yeah. Just because he had everything he needed. He had his insulin. He had his injections. He had everything he needed to take care of it. So, at one time, I guess, when it started, he was taking care of it. [00:31:00] But then, alky came 22 �by and it’s all messed up. (laughs) I think it was his alcoholism that got him where he -JJ: So, you moved over with him to take care of things? GR: Well then, my brother decided that when he graduated from high school that he was going straight into the military. He didn’t tell my father. JJ: He graduated from Waller? GR: Wells. JJ: Oh, he went to Wells. GR: Yeah, he was a top cadet. JJ: So, he went from Waller to Wells too. GR: No (break in audio) to Wells. JJ: Okay, so he was in with your pop. GR: He stayed with my father, so he was -- basically he went to carpenter school all his life. And then, from there, he went straight to Wells and graduated from Wells. That’s what he did. He was the top cadet for the ROTC. JJ: At Wells? GR: He was the one that got the big sword [00:32:00] at the end of the fourth year. JJ: What was his name? GR: Frank Rosario?. Suez is his real name, like the Suez Canal, a name he hated all his life, so he changed it to Frank. (laughs) JJ: Frank Rosario? Okay. GR: I think it’s a beautiful name, I mean, Suez. JJ: Oh yeah. It’s a beautiful name. 23 �GR: It’s really every bit as -- not everybody has it, period. (laughs) So, it’s an individual -- I like the name. I don’t know why he didn’t like it, but I like it a lot. JJ: So, what do you remember of Wells? I mean, what’s a memory? GR: I remember the lunchroom real well (laughs) to be honest because I went to [00:33:00] a few classes, but I was in the lunchroom. JJ: What was happening at the lunchroom that you’re laughing? GR: Just the food and just to sit there and watch people. I should have been a cop since I was little (laughs) because I was always into that. JJ: Into watching? GR: Watching, learning, why did they do this, why did they do that. JJ: (Spanish) [00:33:23] You were talking about them, everybody that came by? GR: Not talking anything about them. But if they would do something wrong or if they did something out of line or disrespectful or things like that, I would -- JJ: You would correct them, or you would tell them? GR: I would tell them. And if they started to fight with me, (laughs) I would tell the people that needed to hear it. JJ: Okay, okay. So, you keep them in line basically? GR: Tried, at least. JJ: Now, what was the population there, in Wells? [00:34:00] because that came -that was -- GR: It was so different. JJ: It was so different, you said? 24 �GR: Yeah, it was different at Wells, I guess too because I didn’t know too many people there. So, I used to be alone a lot, just observing everybody and everything. Then I went to Tuley. JJ: Okay, so you went from Wells to Tuley? GR: Yeah. I had to leave. JJ: Now, where is Tuley at from Wells? How far is it? GR: Tuley is where Roberto Clemente -- Tuley was the old Roberto Clemente. They changed the name. JJ: Oh, okay. I got it. GR: Roberto Clemente is on Division, and Western right now? JJ: And Wells was on Ashland. GR: And Wells was on Ashland, and Oakley and Hirsch is Tuley. [00:35:00] JJ: So, you went to Tuley. GR: So, I’m in that neighborhood right now. (laughs) JJ: You’re in the Tuley neighborhood. So, that’s the Wicker Park neighborhood, I mean, according to the city name. That’s Wicker Park. But you call it the Tuley neighborhood because everybody used to go by the high school? GR: Yeah, it was Tuley High School. JJ: Now, they go by the name -- GR: By the names and -- JJ: -- of the neighborhood. GR: Yeah. 25 �JJ: But they used to go by -- if you were from Waller, if you were from Tuley, if you were from Wells. So, the high schools -- GR: The schools were the -- JJ: -- were the center. GR: -- basic neighborhood names. (laughs) JJ: They were the center. So now, you’re at Tuley. And what was Tuley like? What type of population -- GR: I used to love going there. JJ: What type of -- GR: It’s a lot of Latinos, a lot of Blacks. JJ: About what percentage of Latino, what percentage of Black? GR: About -- I think it was like an 80 percent Latino at the time, maybe 10 percent Black and 10 percent white. JJ: So, this is Wicker Park neighborhood, and you live here today. GR: I’m staying [00:36:00] here. JJ: And what is it today? Is it 80 percent Latino or -- GR: No, it’s about -- it’s backwards now. It’s 80 percent white. (laughs) JJ: Oh, it’s 80 percent white. GR: And I guess it’s because of the rents around here. They’re so expensive. And because of the -- just a change in the neighborhood. I mean, they were trying to change it period. So, when Mayor Daley started with these urbanization projects that he was doing, he started pushing people out of their neighborhoods into other neighborhoods. You needed money to live. 26 �JJ: But when that was going on, did you notice that it was happening or -- GR: Oh yeah. I noticed that early in life, that they would -- so that they can better a neighborhood, they would just take everybody out and clean it up and rent and sell and do whatever they had to do. [00:37:00] JJ: So, they could better our neighborhood? GR: To better a neighborhood so that other people with money and -- JJ: So now, it’s better, our neighborhood or -- GR: I don’t see it any different. I don’t. I mean, maybe three percent (laughs) from a hundred. JJ: So, when you say you don’t see it any different -- but I mean, there’s a lot of condominiums and everything. GR: Oh yeah. But then, you have to have the money to live it. JJ: So, you’re saying in terms of your neighborhood, you don’t see it much different, in terms of the people from your neighborhood. GR: From where -- JJ: Latinos, the Latinos. GR: -- how I used to live, yeah. JJ: But the rest of the neighborhood is condominiums. GR: Yeah. JJ: So, nothing changed in terms of the Latinos or the Black or -- GR: No. JJ: -- the poor, whatever. GR: No. I mean, there’s less -- 27 �JJ: I’m putting words in your mouth (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). GR: Yeah, I know. Spanish -- there’s a lot less Hispanics living in the neighborhood now because of the rent of course unless they’re living under housing or [00:38:00] Section IIX or something like that, which a lot of people are. JJ: Are you living in Section IIX, or where are you living? GR: No, we pay rent. JJ: Regular rent? Okay. GR: Yeah. I mean, this is a Chicago housing building. But it’s not -- JJ: But you pay rent. GR: They pay rent. Yeah. JJ: They’re not Section IIX. GR: It’s not Section IIX or whatever. JJ: So, how do you feel about that, that they kind of changed the neighborhood around you? GR: Well, it is sad because you’re used to seeing other people. I mean, it’s good because it needed to change in a lot of ways. But then, it’s sad because you don’t see nobody around anymore that you used to see. You don’t know who’s alive or who’s dead or what’s going on with anybody anymore. So, it’s sad in that sense. JJ: Do you think that [00:39:00] affected anybody or -- GR: It affected a lot of people that wanted to stay. A lot of people had to get rid of their houses, a lot of people that bought houses that time -- JJ: They rented their houses? What do you mean? 28 �GR: Some people bought their houses. And then, with the inflation and everything else and -- the change in the neighborhood will inflate everything about your house and everything else. A lot of people had to give their houses up because they couldn’t afford -- (break in audio) GR: When I was growing up, North Avenue was the big avenue. They had the stores there to go shopping, the grocery stores. As far as I can tell you, everybody would walk around like -- there was not the fear that there is in this life today, that everybody’s scared to walk or carry a purse or anything like that. Before, they just -- everybody had their bags, hanging purses and their bands and their big dos and whatever. (laughs) [00:40:00] JJ: So, people were not afraid like today? GR: No, no, no. JJ: Even though it was -- GR: There was no fear before even though it was a Black neighborhood because we always fought back. I mean, I was five, but I remember my sister got into a fight at school because she won the basketball tournament and they wanted her trophies. So six girls jumped on her, the six girls that were playing basketball that day. And she got them all, (laughs) and they all went to jail. That was Peggy. JJ: So, people kind of lived comfortable because, I mean, if they had to fight, they fought. GR: You used to sleep with your doors open before. I mean, it was just -- that’s God’s honest truth. There were a lot of times we didn’t even bother locking the doors at 29 �night because it was that -- until then we started having trouble with my sister, the oldest one, Peggy at school because of the girls that -- she was very athletic. [00:41:00] So, they jumped her from sixth grade to Wells High School, from sixth grade to high school. JJ: From sixth grade to high school? GR: Yeah. JJ: To Wells High School? GR: Yeah. They had to get out of the neighborhood because it was bad for her. (break in audio) JJ: Okay. You were seven? GR: Coming out of second grade. I used to stay 10 minutes after school every day to help my teacher out because she was a very old lady. And I asked for permission to my mom to teach her. And since I lived only half a block down, on the other side of Orchard Street, right in the middle of the block between Willow and North Avenue. I lived right in the middle of the block. JJ: Oh, this was in Lincoln Park then? GR: Yeah. JJ: At the time. GR: The Lincoln Park area. JJ: By Willow and Orchard right there? And so, that was by Newberry School. GR: Right. Coming out of Newberry School. JJ: Oh, coming out of Newberry School? 30 �GR: Yeah. My sister saw me, and that’s what -- and we got some photogenic memories. [00:42:00] I mean, we’ve got some photographic memories and some photogenic memories. We remember everything, I mean, from head to toe. And that’s what caught them the next day. JJ: So, they did catch them? GR: Yes, his car. I was able to identify everything that I remembered in his car, and that’s what got his car picked up. And he had taken out a little Tweety Bird he had on his -- and I said, “The bird’s missing.” I told the officer, “The bird’s missing.” So, they opened up the glove compartment. “There it is.” (laughs) The bird was in there. JJ: So, you were seven years old, you said? GR: Yeah. JJ: So, what year would that be about? GR: Sixty-one, ’62. JJ: Sixty-one, ’62? GR: Sixty, ’61. JJ: Sixty, ’61. So, you had moved at ’60, ’61 to Willow and -- GR: From North Avenue and Mohawk to Orchard. JJ: So, you basically were just following North Avenue or -- GR: Yeah, just about. It was just about -- JJ: And that was the street that people were following -- GR: Because when we went up to Campbell. Yeah. [00:43:00] 31 �JJ: Then you went to Campbell later? Okay. So, you stayed near Willow. You didn’t go up to Armitage? GR: No, I was always up by Armitage because my sisters were in school there, and I would walk with them sometimes that way. But I was small, so I usually -- I was in the house all the time watching my dad because I had to watch him over my mom. (laughs) He used to drink a lot. So, when he would say something to her, “Oh no, you’re not. You get out of here right now.” (laughs) JJ: And he would listen to you? GR: I wouldn’t let him come near my mother. JJ: (Spanish) [00:43:37] GR: (Spanish) [00:43:38] He didn’t know that. But I would pop out and tell him, “No, my mom is always so good to you. Why are you treating her like that? She didn’t saying nothing wrong to you. She hasn’t even talked to you and you’re [00:44:00] already telling her that you’re going to do this and you’re going to do that. That’s not right. That’s not what I’m learning in this house is to be a good person, and you’re not teaching me that.” JJ: Was he hanging around with other people or -- GR: My dad was a loner. My dad used to be alone all the time. But he was always there when my mom and dad were separated. And even then, when he got sick and lost his eyesight for not taking care of his diabetes -- he went blind waiting at a bus stop to go to work, on his way to work. And he lost his eyesight right there waiting for the bus. So, somebody walked him back to the house. And then, 32 �when we called doctors and everything -- but that’s because he never took care of his diabetes. JJ: You mean he never took insulin or -- GR: He was a Type I diabetic, so -- JJ: He needed insulin. GR: Brandy or a little whiskey -- that was his diet, not insulin -- [00:45:00] or cold beer. That was his insulin. JJ: More sugar? GR: Yeah. JJ: So, what was -- can you describe the neighborhood at that time, in 1968, right around that time? What do you remember? You were seven. GR: Yeah, I was seven. But I was always in the Boys Club. I was always -- since the age of three, I used to go to that big pool on Ogden and Larrabee, North Avenue. JJ: The [Aishan?]? GR: The Aishan YMCA, exactly. That’s where I learned how to swim at the age of three. So, I was just -- water was for me all the time, swimming. JJ: What kind of people lived there? GR: A lot of Hispanics. And that was 90 percent Black at that time. JJ: That Aishan YMCA? GR: Yeah. My sisters used to take me because they couldn’t go if they wouldn’t take me. (laughs) And their high school friends -- JJ: There was Spanish and Black? GR: -- Hispanics, yeah, all the old guys [00:46:00] from -- 33 �JJ: And 90 percent Black because they were from Cabrini-Green? GR: They all lived there on North Avenue. JJ: North Avenue. GR: Yeah. On North Avenue, Larrabee, Mohawk, Sedgwick. (break in audio) JJ: So, why did they pass away, your siblings? GR: Some of them were before birth, miscarriages. And some of them were -- I know the oldest one died from SIDS, which was -- she died in her sleep. That’s just when they don’t have an undetermined cause of death and they don’t find no foul play. JJ: What did your mother say? You said that they were miscarriages? What did you mother say they were miscarriages from? GR: She was having a baby every year, so you could imagine that’s why. (laughs) JJ: So, that’s why? GR: Yeah. JJ: So, you came here, and you lived by Mohawk. You remember -- GR: Yeah, definitely. JJ: -- that area? What do you remember about that area? GR: I remember Blackhawk Street. I went to Cleveland. [00:47:00] I remember my grandmother basically. JJ: What was her name? GR: Florence. And I remember her because I used to stay with her when I was two. She used to babysit me during the day while my mom worked because my 34 �brother was smaller, so my other aunt used to take care of him during the day. And I remember her because she had an attic where she would wash her clothes with a little -- what do you call it -- that tin bathtub (laughs) and the (Spanish) [00:47:31]. That’s what it sounded like. So, I used to sit there, and I always used to be mesmerized at how she would sit there. And she’s have her legs like this and washing clothes. And one day I said, “What’s” -- she says, “That’s a spider.” (laughs) You know where I’m going with that. She had her legs open, and she didn’t have no underwear. So, that was so funny. [00:48:00] That was so funny to me that she said she had a spider. (laughs) And I got so scared because I was only two. So, I really didn’t know -- when she said a spider, I didn’t know she was talking about herself. But she was just a beautiful person. She was a loving and caring person. And I lost her when I was five, six. She passed away when I was in first grade. JJ: What happened? GR: Well basically they’ve all died from high blood pressure, heart trouble, thrombosis. JJ: Thrombosis? GR: Yeah. So, everybody in my mom’s side of the family has died at the age of 62 or less, including my father, and he didn’t belong on that side. (laughs) But they were 62. That was the number, 62, in my house. JJ: That’s when they passed away? GR: All of them. [00:49:00] JJ: Now, the other ones that grew up -- they grew up in Chicago too? 35 �GR: Yeah, we were all raised here. JJ: What school -- GR: My sisters. JJ: -- did you go to? GR: I went to Manierre, LaSalle School. I went to Newberry. That’s where I got kidnapped from. And I went to Arnold, Waller. Then I went to Wells, and then, I went to Tuley. JJ: You said you got kidnapped from Manierre? GR: Second grade, coming out of school. JJ: What do you mean, kidnapped? GR: I was kidnapped from a man, a Hispanic man. I was seven years old, and he put me in his car. And he had a big knife next to him. And he let me go two hours later, the same spot. And when I was going to the house -- and since he left me right off at Newberry again, right there on Willow and Orchard, he came back and he said he’d pick me up the next day. He was taking me to the zoo. [00:50:00] That’s what he told me. (laughs) So, when I’m walking home, I see all these policemen, detectives. I said, “Oh, something happened.” I’m all excited because I want to know what -- and it was me, the excitement -- “Oh, there she is?” I said, “Oh my gosh.” Then I got scared. So, it was something I’d never forget. (break in audio) 36 �GR: Hi. I’m Gloria Rosario. I am from Chicago, was born and raised here in Chicago, August 18, 1955. My family is originally from Puerto Rico in the town of Guayama, town of the witches. JJ: And so, what year did they come from Puerto Rico? GR: I think my dad came in ’49 and my mom in ’51. JJ: Do you remember what neighborhood they lived in? GR: On LaSalle Street. That’s where there was a lot of Spanish speaking people when they came from Puerto Rico. [00:51:00] cause I was born here. So, I wasn’t even thought of. (laughs) JJ: And where were you born, what hospital? GR: Henrotin Hospital, which no longer stands. JJ: That was on Oak and LaSalle? GR: On Oak and LaSalle. JJ: They used to call that neighborhood -- GR: Chestnut and Oak. JJ: -- La Clark. That was La Clark. They used to call it -- because the Clark Street was the big street. GR: Yeah, the Clark Street was behind it. Right. JJ: So, your parents were living there. And what neighborhood did you first remember (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? GR: Mohawk Street, that’s where we moved from LaSalle Street. I was still a baby then. But I remember when I was like one and three months, a year and three months old. That’s how far back I can tell you about my life because I had my 37 �first dance with my father, and I’ll never forget that day. It was October 12th, my brother’s birthday. And we had our first dance, and he’s a year older. So, I was two years and two and a half months old. And I had my first dance with my father. JJ: With your dad? [00:52:00] GR: And I’d never forget that. JJ: What was the -- GR: It was on Mohawk Street. JJ: Mohawk and -- GR: Mohawk and North Avenue. JJ: -- and North Avenue right there? GR: Right by the L track, first house by the L track. JJ: So, that’s basically like old town. GR: That’s like old town, yeah. JJ: That’s the old town neighborhood now? So, you lived there? So, you came from LaSalle and that area to old town? GR: Right, from LaSalle, North Avenue area to Mohawk and North Avenue. JJ: And you remember the dance. And then -- GR: That was my brother’s birthday, first birthday. So, I’m a year older. JJ: How many brothers and sisters do you have? GR: There’s six of us. There was 15. Nine died, during birth or before birth. So, there were six of us. JJ: All in Chicago? 38 �GR: My oldest brother died. They were all born in Puerto Rico. I was the only on born in Chicago, plus my little brother. JJ: So, why do you think the other ones died? GR: Well, the first one died -- [00:53:00] I know she had what they called -- that thing - not bed -- what do you call that? I forgot the name of it. (break in audio) JJ: So, 1968, 1969, 1970, the Young Lords were at Dayton and Armitage, at the People’s Church. GR: Right. JJ: Do you remember them changing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? GR: I always remember them there. That’s the first thing. JJ: Did you know them when they were a gang? GR: Yeah. JJ: And how were they at that time? GR: Well, I didn’t hang out with them a lot, but I used to go through the neighborhood all the time because I had friends living right there on Dayton across the street from the church, from the People’s Church. [00:54:00] And I used to pick my friends up to go to school in the mornings. So, I know they used to have parties there. They used to have a lot of -- what do you call those -- protest type -- JJ: Oh, that was later. That was when they were political. But I’m talking about when they were just a street gang. Just hanging out and -- GR: See, to me -- JJ: -- Halsted and Dickens. Do you remember that area? 39 �GR: Yes, of course. I used to work there at the hot dog stand. (laughs) JJ: Oh, you used to work at the hot dog stand? GR: Both of them. JJ: With George? GR: With George and then across the street. JJ: Well, tell me something about George. What do you know about George if you worked with him? GR: He was a good guy. JJ: I mean, where was he from? GR: He had a good heart. JJ: What country was he from? GR: I don’t -- I think he was Italian or Greek, one or the other. I don’t remember. (laughs) JJ: And you said -- GR: But he was a good person. He had a good heart. Didn’t let nobody mess with nobody in his place [00:55:00] or would just throw them out if they were really nasty people, wouldn’t serve them. Gave free food out to people that were hungry that didn’t have money. I know I saw that with my own eyes. George was a real good person. JJ: You don’t know his last name, do you? GR: [Kowiski?], [Kopinski?], or [Wiski?] (inaudible). (laughs) JJ: So, he was Polish. He was Polish then. GR: I don’t remember. But I know he was -- they moved and -- 40 �JJ: He was there before that neighborhood was Spanish. GR: Right. JJ: And then, the Spanish came in. And then, it was completely Spanish going to that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). GR: To that area, yeah. JJ: But he would keep the peace? GR: From there, we moved to Halsted and Wrightwood. They opened a new -- and I was the only one asked to go work over there other than the family that was working with him. But I was one of the only people that he asked if I could go work that. [00:56:00] JJ: But you were there when all the gangs used to come after -- GR: After school. JJ: -- school and to the parties. GR: Waller. JJ: Oh, after school they had the rioting and all that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). GR: Yeah, it was for the Martin Luther King era. JJ: That was kind of a little later, but that’s fine. But you were there then. You were working with George. GR: Yeah, sure was. JJ: And you said he was a nice person? Was he married or did he have any kids? GR: Yeah, he had a family. Who his wife -- I don’t remember none of that right. JJ: But they live in the community? 41 �GR: I know his brother used to work there with him. I don’t even know where they lived. I never asked questions like that. Him being my boss and stuff. JJ: Well, were there like almost 24 hours a day. GR: Yeah, they were there from real early to late at night. JJ: And everybody used to come and hang out at the parking lot. GR: In the parking lot, inside when he changed it because he had that -- just the front to serve people. Then he changed it to an L shape so they could come through the side [00:57:00] and through the front. From there, he moved to Wrightwood and Halsted, in between Wrightwood -- JJ: So, do you remember some of the groups that used to hang out there? GR: Basically just the people from the school. The Kings would be there. The Young Lords. Not the Harrison Gents, but the Paragons. JJ: Flaming Arrows, all these different groups? GR: Yeah. JJ: Imperial Aces, all of the (inaudible). GR: I don’t remember anybody from the Imperial Aces or anything like that. JJ: Well, the Imperial Aces and Queens used to be on Dayton and Armitage before we were -- GR: Before the people -- JJ: -- before the Latin Kings were in. GR: I remember those. JJ: So, George was there for many years. He was -- GR: Oh yeah, because I remember being small and coming to that hot dog stand. 42 �JJ: And then, that whole [00:58:00] side of that street was wiped out. Right? GR: Yeah. JJ: Now, do you remember who used to live on that side of the street, or no? GR: Across the street from George was St. Joseph’s Hospital before they moved it to [Diversica?], to -- what do we call that street now? [Lakeshore Drive?]. JJ: Oh, on the other side, across the street on Dickens. GR: Yeah, on Halsted and Dickens, right across the street from George. JJ: Was St. Joseph’s hospital. Okay. GR: Was St. Joseph’s because that’s where my nephew and my niece were born. And ’61 and ’62 -- that was where the hospital was. So then, they tore down that building after St. Joseph left. It was a big empty lot there. JJ: Some of the women would join the Paragons. There would be women that hung around with them. And the Kings had the Queens that [00:59:00] hung around with them. What was it like for the other women? They still went to the dances, but they -- GR: Yeah. They were like me, “Hey, hey, Queen love and whatever,” just associate. (laughs) JJ: I mean, were they sheltered by their parents? Did the parents try to keep you away? They didn’t shelter you. GR: I was pretty sheltered. JJ: What do you mean? GR: I had a curfew, and if I was a minute late, I wasn’t going out next week, that’s for sure. 43 �JJ: So, you were sheltered. GR: I would call my mom and tell her I was going to be five or 10 minutes. I lived right across the street behind the church, so I didn’t have too far to go. (laughs) JJ: So, you were lucky because you were by the church so you could stay out. GR: I guess basically wherever I would go, I would always make sure that I had a watch or somebody with a watch next to me. (laughs) I mean, it was important [01:00:00] to me to follow my mother’s rules. JJ: So, it was important. So, you did it not out of fear. You did it because of -- GR: More out of respect. I knew she was a hard worker, that she was taking care of us alone, and that she could need me at any moment for anything. JJ: So, it was more out of respect, meaning that you knew it would hurt your mother if you -- GR: Exactly. I would do nothing to try and hurt her. I just loved her that much that it would hurt me -- I didn’t like the way they look at her mean. Some men just were ugly and mean, and they would whistle. And I would tell them, “Don’t be looking at my mother like that.” (laughs) I didn’t know it was just that they were trying to throw a whistle or whatever. JJ: Could that have been because you kind of were more aware of the streets [01:01:00] than she was? GR: I was aware of them. JJ: Or was your mom more aware of the streets? GR: No, I was definitely. 44 �JJ: So, you saw her more like someone that came over from Puerto Rico that didn’t really -- GR: Wasn’t street smart. JJ: -- wasn’t street smart. GR: Right. JJ: And so, you had to protect her? GR: It was basically -- that’s the word. It was more out of protection, just watching her, that nothing would happen to her. I mean, she was my life. JJ: So, were other women doing the same thing, other girls at that time? GR: I don’t know. I don’t because when I used to be with my mom, we would hang out together, whatever, go anywhere together. It was just her and I. But as far as if other girls did whatever they did with their parents, I don’t know. JJ: So, you weren’t a Queen, but you were hanging around the Kings and the Queens? GR: Be with them most of the time, yeah. [01:02:00] JJ: And so, you must have gotten involved in some of the same things they did. GR: I never got into the fights. I didn’t -- JJ: I mean, was any weed smoked or anything like that? GR: I was always away from that lifestyle. I didn’t like it. I knew people that did it, that was their business. I didn’t care for it. I didn’t do drugs at that time. I did use them after a while in life, but I stopped also. JJ: And not during that time? GR: I used to love to drink. 45 �JJ: So, that time was the drinking time (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? GR: Yeah. For me. And I stopped drinking when I was 21. Instead of starting then, I stopped (laughs) on my birthday. Two days after my birthday I stopped drinking. JJ: Okay. So, you started at what age, I mean, drinking? GR: Maybe nine, 10, just trying it out. JJ: And at 21 you stopped? You went backwards? GR: I stopped. Yeah. I was backwards. (laughter) JJ: You were kind of backwards. GR: But thank God I did that because my liver’s still alive (overlapping dialogue). [01:03:00] JJ: Because I know in the neighborhood they got into deep drugs. I got into deep drugs. But not at that time. But later you said? GR: Yeah, later in life, I was -- JJ: So, you were living where, in Wicker Park at the time when it happened? GR: By Humboldt Park. JJ: By Humboldt Park? So, this is after Wicker Park was gone and Lincoln Park. GR: Up until I was 19. JJ: Lincoln Park was gone? GR: Yeah. JJ: Do you think that could have contributed to anything? GR: No, what contributed to it was family. (laughs) They were into it heavily. I didn’t know. And I used to have migraines and they supposedly crushed Tylenol until I 46 �found myself sick one day. I didn’t know. I thought I had the flu. And I was in the big bad habit of heroin, which was supposed to be Tylenol. (laughs) [01:04:00] JJ: So, it wasn’t Tylenol. It was heroin. GR: It wasn’t Tylenol. It was heroin. JJ: They were crushing the heroin. GR: Yeah. JJ: So, what year was that? GR: They would tell me it works faster for the headaches. Seventy, ’71, ’72. JJ: Nineteen seventy-two. And that was over here. That was in the Humboldt Park area? GR: Yeah. Then I went to an intervention. I went to 21 day treatment, cold turkey, and came out and tried to get my sisters in there, one of them. JJ: So, your sisters had the same experience? GR: Yeah. That’s what I was taught. JJ: From your sisters? (laughter) Okay, so your -- GR: From one of them, which I won’t say names -- JJ: Oh, no, no. That’s fine. GR: -- out of disrespect to them. JJ: No, no, no. But I mean, it was happening with family. GR: My oldest brother, yeah. JJ: Now, could it be that it just kind of multiplied all at once like a fad or something? [01:05:00] GR: Well, you know, I -- 47 �JJ: I mean, first people are using that -- GR: -- was really upset because I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to go into medicine. And that just killed it, crushed it because I was a drug addict. (laughs) I couldn’t be a doctor like that to help another person. Are you kidding me? JJ: Now, how did -- GR: That affected me real bad. I think that’s where my depression came from. JJ: From there? GR: Yeah. JJ: What about your mom? Were you worried about her, protecting her? GR: She didn’t know. She knew that my brother used, but she didn’t know about us until later. I mean, she knew I tried some drugs because I would tell her myself. I wouldn’t wait for nobody to come and tell her. (laughs) I would come and tell her myself, “I tried this out, and no good.” JJ: So, why would you tell your mom? Why would you tell her if you didn’t want her to -- [01:06:00] GR: Well, I wanted her to know what I was doing. If anything were to happen to me that she wouldn’t be shocked that this came out in my blood system or that would come out of my blood system and stuff like that. JJ: So, you were trying to break it down to her. GR: Down to her, exactly. JJ: Because she wouldn’t be affected later? GR: Exactly. I didn’t want her to just found out all of the sudden and say, “How the heck did I not notice that my daughter was doing all these things or all those 48 �things or whatever?” So, I would sit and tell her, “Mom, I tried this and that.” I said, “You know how that is. People are in the street and they offer it and you don’t know. And they continue to offer it up until, “Hey, but try it. You’ll like it.” And then, you take it and you throw up and you vomit all your guts out and you say, “No thank you.” (laughs) So, that’s how I broke it down to her. JJ: Now, [01:07:00] you had children? You got married? Or what happened then? GR: No, I had a boyfriend and I got pregnant. I didn’t even know I was pregnant. My boss told me. He said he found me a little bigger. It was my breasts. That’s what he was talking about. JJ: That’s your boyfriend? GR: No, my boss at work. Yeah. He said, “Are you pregnant?” I said, “Pregnant? Why would I be pregnant?” He says, “Because I’ve seen you gain breasts in the last few weeks.” (laughter) JJ: He was checking. GR: He told me just like that. I said, “Oh, so that’s what you’ve been looking at?” JJ: He was evaluating. GR: Yeah. And I went and took a test and sure enough, I was. And that was my daughter. I let her dad know. And I think he got married about four or five months after that to someone else. JJ: Okay. But was he married to you then? GR: No, we weren’t married. JJ: Oh, you weren’t married. GR: Never been married. [01:08:00] 49 �JJ: And then, you have a son too, right? GR: Yeah, Denny. That’s my son, the one that passed away. JJ: Oh, he recently passed away? I’m sorry to hear that. GR: When he was 21, 10 years ago, July 25th. JJ: How did he pass away? GR: A log truck hit him or he hit the log truck. Something happened. And the man was trying to tell him to stop, stop, stop. And he had just left his girlfriend’s house. And he had been telling her that he took his life insurance out on her name. I guess he was in love, and then he was out of it (laughs) or whatever happened. The thing was that she was so mad at him. And I always said that she had something to do with his death. Because my son was a Christian. And he preached since the age of three. And never, never would he fall asleep like the way that they said he was out of it, totally out of it on his [01:09:00] way to the barracks, driving on his way to the barracks. He had left a note on the computer to a friend of mine here telling her, “I’m on my way to the barracks now. I was by so-and-so’s house, and we had a good time and blah, blah, blah.” After so many weeks or months or something, she had invited him over there. And that was it. Before he left, she gave him something to drink, and that’s all I know. JJ: And so, what branch of the service was he in? GR: He was in the Air Force in Montana. And he was burned beyond recognition because his car blew up when he got hit with the log truck. So, what I got was his bones basically. Well, his body was intact, but you couldn’t see anything. He was in cellophane wrap. [01:10:00] Then they put the uniform over the -- I 50 �wouldn’t let nobody see him, not even his father. I didn’t want nobody to go through what I was going through. So, I just remember him like that. JJ: So, you wanted your sisters and that to see this and that. What’s the most important thing you feel that they should know that maybe we’ve forgotten that we haven’t discussed? What sort of things that we haven’t touched upon yet? GR: Whatever we’ve been through in life, we’re sisters. Forgiven and forgotten and we’ve still got to love each other and help each other out. [01:11:00] JJ: So, you relationship with your family is pretty (inaudible)? GR: It is, it is. I mean, I still get yelled at like I was 10 by one of them. But she needs to open her eyes up and see what’s wrong with her. I can’t do that for her. JJ: You’re putting this on the tape. You might want to -- GR: That’s okay. JJ: -- let her know that she needs to open her eyes. GR: That’s okay. I love the hell out of her. That’s all I can say. JJ: Well, I think we’ll finish it up with that, if that’s okay. I appreciate it. GR: I thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 51 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5cb85f759a0726c422c671dfd3beaa8.mp4 0c99d7b727a1ba0f0a3e57e1ddabf1e8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Gloria Rosario vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Latin Kings--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rosario_Gloria Title A name given to the resource Gloria Rosario video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rosario, Gloria Description An account of the resource Gloria Rosario grew up in Lincoln Park and Wicker Park during the 1960s, as those communities were becoming unstable, and the forced dislocations had already pushed many of the areas Latino pioneers from their homes. Ms. Rosario describes spending time with a neighborhood branch of the Latin Kings, many of whom were the younger brothers and sisters of Young Lords. Like the Lords, they wore Young Lords buttons and supported the community. Ms. Rosario remembers helping out with the Young Lords Breakfast for Children Program and the Emeterio Betances Free Health Clinic. She also recalls the proliferation of drugs that were allowed to flow into Lincoln and Wicker Park during the 1960s and 1970s, undermining the activism and well-being of many of the young Puerto Rican men and women who remained in those neighborhoods. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Latin Kings--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4d181bff49d65c6fe7f5c1b8765b5b28.pdf 4e8a50195754655b1ad1aef4c76799e4 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: María Romero Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/2/2012 Biography and Description María Romero first joined the Young Lords on Wilton and Grace Streets. She was recruited by then Angie Lind-Rizzo (later Angie Adorno) and the other Young Lord women members. It was 1973 and the Young Lords were emerging from two long years of being completely underground, or inoperative publicly as a human rights organization. There were no longer remnants of the Young Lords Movement left in the Lincoln Park neighborhood that gave birth to them in 1968. The Lincoln Park neighborhood had been cleaned out of Puerto Ricans and the poor, in just a few years, by city hall and the Lincoln Park Neighborhood Association. A directive was given by the leadership for the Young Lords members to move and to establish themselves as a base of operations in the Lakeview Neighborhood, at Wilton and Grace Streets. Many Young Lords moved there with their families. Prior to that, a group of about 25 Young Lords had moved to a rural, rented farm near Tomah, Wisconsin. The farm camp was called a “Training School,” and their sole purpose for their camp was to train new Young Lord’s leaders who would step in and lead the Young Lords. Repression had hit extremely hard within the Lincoln Park Movement, splitting it in several directions. This was aided by pending trials of several Young Lords leaders and the still unsolved murders of United Methodist Rev. Bruce Johnson and his wife Eugenia, of the Young Lords People’s Church. Rainbow Coalition leader of the Black Panther Party, Fred Hampton, and Mark Clark were also assassinated in a raid organized by the States Attorney. The Lincoln Park �Movement had seized to exist. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, who was then in hiding from the police after being sentenced to one year in Cook County Jail and who had 17 more felony indictments still pending, called for the organizing of a training school in a secluded farm near Tomah, Wisconsin. After members received their training in the farm camp for one and a half years, it was decided that Mr. Jiménez would voluntarily turn himself in, begin serving the year and start to fight the remaining cases which included bond jumping and many trumped up charges of mob actions for demonstrations. The Young Lords would raise his bond, hire attorneys, and then switch their organizing in Lakeview and Uptown where many of the Puerto Ricans of Lincoln Park had moved. They had also moved to Wicker Park and Humboldt Park but the Young Lords wanted to concentrate their forces. If this move was not done, the movement started in Lincoln Park would completely collapse. After serving the year, Mr. Jiménez announced his Aldermanic Campaign for the 46th Ward, as an Independent Democrat. He would use the election not as an electoral revolution but, “as an organizing vehicle for change.” Among other things the campaign would focus on Mayor Daley’s forced displacement of the Puerto Rican Community from the near lakefront and near downtown areas of the city. It not only boldly opposed the banks, the developers, the neighborhood associations but implicated Mayor Richard J. Daley in urban renewal plans that clearly were racist, being utilized to cleanse these areas of lower income minorities. Because of this, María Romero volunteered to serve as Young Lords Office Coordinator. It was Ms. Romero’s job to pass out assignments and to provide support and referrals for services for residents of that Lakeview area of Wilton and Grace. She herself had lived in Lincoln Park but had grown up in Lakeview. There most of the Puerto Ricans knew her family, as her father was a businessman, who for years had owned several Latino botanicas, or stores that sell religious potions and candles of saints, and provide consultation services. Ms. Romero was instrumental in getting a large amount of persons registered to vote. The Jiménez Aldermanic Campaign received 39% of the vote on the first attempt. It was not the 51% needed, but it was still victorious in uniting the community and beginning to expose the prejudice behind displacement. It also opened wide the doors for future Latino political candidates. As Ms. Romero moved west to Humboldt Park she was hired as a community organizer for Bickerdike, a non profit development corporation. She used her Young Lords organizing skills and passion to promote their mission of being, deeply dedicated to preserving the ethnic and cultural character of their neighborhoods, providing quality affordable housing, preserving jobs, advocating for resources and struggling against gentrification and displacement. One of the main issues that Ms. Romero advocated for was the “Chicago Affordable Set Aside.” �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Let me see if we can start doing. I think so. Okay. María, to start, just give me your full name, date of birth, and where you were born. MARIA ROMERO: My full name is Cruz María Romero and I was born in Río Piedras, Puerto Rico on May 1st, a wonderful day to be born because it’s a very actionfilled and political day, I learned later. There may be a reason for that. JJ: Oh, May 1st, yes. Okay. But Cruz is your first name? MR: Cruz is my first name. JJ: Okay. MR: I just don’t use it because as I was in school, they confused it with a last name, or they can’t, for some reason. Cruz is an easy name to pronounce, but for some reason, they decided to call me María. It must have been easier for the anglos. JJ: So they confused it? What school was that? MR: The first school I went to was McLaren School. JJ: Okay. Where is that at? MR: I don’t know [00:01:00] where it was. That’s where I was in kindergarten. Then after that, I went to Skinner School. I’m thinking both on the West Side because that’s when we lived on Van Buren, I believe. Yes, that’s when we lived on Van Buren Street. JJ: Do you know what address in Van Buren? MR: Thirteen thirty-four Van Buren, West Van Buren. JJ: West Van Buren? Okay. 1 �MR: Yeah, right before the bridge. My dad had a botánica up that way. JJ: Oh, what’s a botánica, (inaudible)? MR: Una botánica is where they sell -- usually the person in charge of it is a santero, and they use natural healing. They also deal with spiritism and things like that. My father was into that. JJ: So your father was into that. MR: Yes, he was. He used to have (Spanish) [00:01:54], I guess they call them, and right before [00:02:00] he went into the nursing home, he used to give classes. Like, toward the end of his life, he would give people classes for that. JJ: So what do you mean, a class? MR: He would teach them what he did, how to mix all the stuff. I really didn’t get into it, and now I wish I had because of the medicinal side of it because they used a lot of natural medicine. But I felt it was the occult and I’m a Christian and scripture says not to mess with that. It doesn’t say it doesn’t exist. It says don’t mess with it. So I would leave it alone. I think my dad was disappointed that none of us followed in his footsteps, but he prepared other people to do it. JJ: Well, let me ask you this. Let me. Okay, your father’s name? Did we get his name? What’s your father -- MR: [Cayetano?]. JJ: Cayetano. MR: Romero. JJ: Romero, okay. And what town is [00:03:00] he from in Puerto Rico? You said you were born here, though, right? 2 �MR: I was born in Río Piedras. JJ: In Río Piedras, okay. MR: My dad’s family is from Carolina and my mother’s family is from Río Piedras. JJ: And your mother’s name? MR: Ana Maria. Ana Maria Santiago Romero. JJ: Santiago Romero, okay. And (Spanish) [00:03:19] your father, Cayetano, (Spanish) [00:03:24], and how about your mother? Did she believe in that? MR: I don’t know. I have an aunt who did who was very involved. My mom was a housewife and she took care of the kids and whoever came by and all of that. But I don’t remember her actively participating. JJ: What about your father’s brothers and sisters? MR: I think they all believed. My dad was one of the oldest brothers and they had a lot of respect for him. They would go to him whenever they needed counseling [00:04:00] or something, yeah. JJ: Okay. And had you seen any of why he was praying or anything like that? How did he do it? MR: No, I was never allowed. JJ: Did he have an altar in the house or no? MR: Yes, he did. That, he did, and he always taught us to pray, and every week we would go in what we called the cuartito, and there he had all his santos and a picture of Jesus, and he taught us all -- JJ: What kind of stuff? What kind of santos? MR: His botánica was always named San Judas, so he always had that santo. 3 �JJ: San Judas Tadeo. MR: Yes. Yes, and I remember the picture of faith, hope, and charity. I remember that. But I remember he always taught us to pray to Jesus. He always taught me to pray to Jesus. JJ: Okay, so he always taught you to pray to Jesus. So it was connected in a way with the Catholic church, but it was also part of the -- MR: Yeah, when we went to church when we were kids, [00:05:00] we went to a Catholic church. JJ: Where did you go? MR: We went to Notre Dame. JJ: Notre Dame in Puerto Rico? MR: No, here, here, on the West Side. JJ: Oh, Notre Dame on the West Side. Okay. MR: And from school, they used to take us to St. Patrick’s. JJ: So you came when you were -- MR: I was a baby. I was nine months old when we came from Puerto Rico. JJ: And what year was that? MR: Fifty-five, 1955, when they came with us. My mother had been in New York. She had lived in New York and worked for a woman as a maid. She brought her from Puerto Rico -- that wasn’t too nice to her, apparently. And her and my father were communicating. He was in Chicago, so they went back to Puerto Rico, met there, and I believe that that’s when they went to Indiana. They owned a restaurant there by the steel mills. Then after that, for whatever reason, they 4 �decided to go back to [00:06:00] Puerto Rico, and that’s when my brother was born and I was born, and then they came to Chicago to the hotel we were talking about. The Water Something Hotel. JJ: The Water Hotel. F1: Water Hotel. JJ: The Water Hotel, okay. Somebody here knows about that. MR: I was a kid. I remember sitting in the window and I remember the trucks with the fruit and the guy yelling, “Watermelon.” And we’d run to the window and my dad would get baskets of tomatoes and fruit and stuff like that. Then I remember that our uncles, his cousins and people like that little by little came. They would come there and then move somewhere else. JJ: So that was like a stopping point for everybody? MR: Yeah. JJ: Was it because the rent was cheap or something? MR: Probably. They had small rooms. I remember the apartment we lived in. I remember it seemed like a really big room [00:07:00] and the kitchen was over to the side. There was the dining table, and then here was the windows and I guess the living area. JJ: Then there was a bedroom? MR: And then there was a bedroom. I don’t know exactly how many bedrooms there were, but there were a lot of apartments. I remember big, giant doors. My sister and a cousin of mine -- my sister, Yolanda -- were playing by one of those doors and it smashed her finger. To this day, one of her thumbs, the nail doesn’t grow 5 �right because of that accident. The door smashed her finger. My brother George was born in that apartment. JJ: It was Chinatown? MR: Yeah. Yeah, they put him in a drawer. The nurses from County Hospital came. When he was born, they put him in a drawer ’cause I guess there wasn’t a crib, and he was cold. JJ: The drawer of a dresser? A dresser drawer? MR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: The nurses did that? MR: Yeah, the nurses. JJ: Well, was he born in the house? MR: Yeah, he was born in the house. JJ: [00:08:00] At the Water Hotel? MR: Yes. JJ: This is Chinatown? MR: Yes. JJ: Okay. You said he was born in the house. MR: Yes. JJ: I had a sister born in Chinatown. MR: I think he might’ve been the only one. JJ: So what year was that about? MR: Oh, I don’t know. JJ: But he’s younger than you. 6 �MR: Yes. He’s like a year younger than me. JJ: Oh, okay. MR: Fifty-six. JJ: So around ’56, he was born there. MR: Yeah, and I remember they turned on the oven to keep him warm and put him by the oven. JJ: (Spanish) [00:08:28] came? MR: Yeah, midwives, I think they were. JJ: They had them all over. You said they turned, what, the water? MR: The stove. They turned the stove on to warm him when he was born because whatever issues he was having. I believe my youngest sister may have been born in the house too. I’m not sure about that. JJ: But at that time, they had a (Spanish) [00:08:48]. They had that at that time. MR: Yes. JJ: At that time. Okay. So (Spanish) [00:09:00] you were going to school. Did you go to school there? MR: No. JJ: Where did you go to -- MR: I started -- JJ: Church. You said you went to the Catholic church. MR: Yeah, Notre Dame Church, we went to. JJ: Notre Dame. But I mean, do you remember going to church there with your mother or anything? 7 �MR: I remember us going to church. They had a basement that they had the Spanish church, and we would go there or we would go to service with my parents. I had a cousin that was very devoted. I remember one Easter, it was really, really cold. We were supposed to go to church, and it snowed. So my mom didn’t send us, and I was looking through the window, and my poor little cousin was in her Easter outfit, walking across the bridge. So that’s when we lived on Van Buren. And it seemed like you’d move into one place -- and that happened with me too. I’d move into a building and then the rest of my family would end up moving into the same building. But that happened a lot [00:10:00] with our family. JJ: So the family just followed you. MR: Yeah. Yeah. And the Van Buren building was a big courtway building. JJ: What address on Van Buren? MR: Thirteen thirty-four West Van Buren. JJ: You said there was a big building too, like the Water Hotel? MR: It was a big courtway building, something like this. JJ: So a courtway building, okay. MR: And the whole family practically lived in all the courtways. And I’ve met other people throughout. JJ: The Romero family? MR: Yeah, and cousins, and you know. What is the other? [Trejes?]. JJ: Oh, Trejes were also there. That’s [your family?], the Trejes? 8 �MR: That’s one of the last names. But I believe that’s part of the family that lived in New York. There’s a whole group of them which are now in Florida that lived in New York. I have an aunt who raised her kids, like five, six kids there. JJ: Okay. So you were about how old [00:11:00] at Van Buren? How old were you then? MR: I wasn’t in school yet, so maybe four, I’m guessing, ’cause I’m just guessing that’s how far back I can remember. JJ: But you remember that courtway pretty well. MR: Yes. The courtway building, I remember well ’cause that’s when we were in Skinner School. JJ: So what do you remember about the things that (inaudible)? MR: That wasn’t Skinner School. JJ: It wasn’t? MR: Mm-mm. Now I’m not remembering well. It was so long ago. Memory’s foggy. JJ: I’m just trying to figure out what kind of memories do you have of that time when you were at Van Buren. The neighborhood, were there a lot of Puerto Ricans? MR: Yes, there were, and my family had rented a hall -- JJ: In the courtway building? In the courtway building? MR: Yes, there were a lot of Puerto Ricans. The area was mostly Afro American, and I guess there were groups of Puerto Ricans. JJ: Different sections. And your father rented a home, you said? MR: My uncles, [00:12:00] my dad, had a hall, and that’s where we would celebrate because the family was really big. All the cousins and everyone lived in the 9 �building. They would play domino and things like that on the weekend. Then I remember Christmas holidays. JJ: Where were they playing dominoes at? MR: At the hall. Yeah, my father was pretty good at it. He had all kinds of trophies. I think one of my sisters has his trophies still from playing domino. JJ: So he would rent a hall and people would pay? MR: They rented the hall, yeah. JJ: Together, they would rent the hall. MR: Yeah. JJ: So did he have a social club? MR: Yeah. I guess that’s what it was. I don’t remember the name of it. They didn’t have a specific name. But neighbors would always be there, and on the weekend, they’d drink and they’d sell liquor, and that’s probably how they paid the rent. Then on holidays, the kids would put on performances. JJ: Was this a big hall or a storefront? MR: No, I remember just, like, something like Casa Puertorriqueña. It looked [00:13:00] something like that. And they had a little bar and my uncles would mix drinks. JJ: So it was like a social -- MR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Okay. But you don’t remember who was (inaudible) after the Río Piedras, or --? MR: No, I don’t remember what it was named. JJ: Okay. So you used to go to that home? 10 �MR: Yeah, on holidays, we’d go. JJ: And your family and stuff like that? MR: Yeah. Whenever there was a party, the ladies would all cook. My mother would cook and the food would go there. Everyone would celebrate holidays there. And it was on Van Buren because it was right next to the building. JJ: Okay. And then what else do you remember on Van Buren, that area? Because I know there was a street called Madison nearby. MR: Yeah. I know we lived on Harrison. JJ: You lived on Harrison? MR: Yes. And when we were in Skinner School, it was on Throop, so I guess that was when we lived on Van Buren because I remember the back was a big -[00:14:00] I remember getting robbed on my way to school with my cousins because we all used to go to school in a pack. When we got older, they let us go by ourselves, and I remember a couple of tall Black guys stopped us and they took my purse. My brothers weren’t with us. I remember one time that my brother had a fight and I was coming out of school. Then I got into it and I got in trouble because I got into the fight. I got in to help my brother and tore this guy’s shirt. The mother came to our house and she was making stuff up about what I had done. So I spoke up to defend myself and my mother smacked me because I yelled at an adult. But then she told the lady, “No, I’m not paying for your shirt. This is my daughter and that was your son.” She defended me, but she taught me that you don’t raise your voice to elders. [00:15:00] I remember that real clearly. 11 �JJ: Okay. What other things did your mom teach you? MR: How to be a mom. JJ: What do you mean by that? MR: How to treat my kids, how to -- JJ: How did she tell you to treat your kids? MR: Well -- JJ: I’m trying to find out what moms used to teach the women at that time. MR: Well, my mom taught me how to cook. I’m a great cook. It’s hard for me because I still miss her. She’s been gone almost three years and she just showed me what unconditional love was. You know, regardless to what mistakes we made, she still loved us, and she still accepted us. She taught us that. She taught us to be like that with our children. JJ: Want me to stop this for a little bit? MR: Yeah. (break in audio) JJ: Okay. Can you tell me something about Van Buren? MR: Okay. I remember the summers there. I remember playing in the courtway with the other kids [00:16:00] in the building. The majority of the people that lived there were Puerto Rican. I had an aunt who sold bolita, and I remember taking the numbers to her. JJ: What is bolita? MR: Numbers. The numbers. It was like lottery, illegal lottery. JJ: It was illegal? 12 �MR: Yeah. JJ: Why was it illegal? MR: I don’t know why it was illegal. I just know it was illegal. JJ: (inaudible) Your aunt, you said? MR: Yeah, I had an aunt. JJ: And she sold it? MR: Yeah. JJ: So the women and the men were selling that. MR: Yeah, in our family. JJ: Now, that one wasn’t from [lo chino?], right? There was a bolita they called [los chinos?]. MR: I don’t know. I think there were two. I think that there was another one. JJ: There was another one too? MR: I’m not sure, but I used to love going to her house because she had a real pretty house and real pretty apartment. JJ: This is on Van Buren? MR: Yes, in one of the courtway buildings. I remember taking the numbers to her. I also remember my dad. He had a [00:17:00] botánica then, and he got caught. JJ: What do you mean? MR: He got caught selling numbers and they had him handcuffed to one of his vitrinas. What’s a vitrina in English? JJ: Vitrina? I don’t know. 13 �MR: Display thing or whatever. I remember us being all upset because my father had gotten arrested and my uncles didn’t seem worried about it. They went and got him out of jail. As far as we knew, it was over with. But I remember that pretty clearly. I remember playing in the fire hydrant, or watching -- JJ: Was that the first time he got arrested for that, or no? MR: As far as I knew. That’s one time that I knew. Who knows? Because they didn’t tell you too much when you were a kid. JJ: But your uncles were not worried about it? MR: They didn’t seem worried about it. They just went and got him. JJ: Had they sold bolita too? MR: Huh? JJ: Did some of them sell bolita or no? MR: I don’t think so. JJ: It was just your father. MR: My father and then my aunt. My aunt, [00:18:00] she was the -- JJ: What was the botánica called? MR: San Judas. His botánica was always called San Judas wherever. He had one on Halsted too, on Halsted and Broadway. JJ: So it’s a business. I mean, from (inaudible). MR: Yeah, because he worked -- JJ: Halsted and what? MR: Broadway. On the North Side, he had it. Wherever we lived, he had a botánica. It was always named San Judas. That was his patron saint. 14 �JJ: So he sold different -- he must’ve had good business, then. MR: Yeah, he did. JJ: A lot of people in the community went over there. MR: He had people coming from out of Chicago from Indiana. JJ: What do people buy? From Indiana? MR: They bought statues. He used to mix stuff, powders and things like that for them. They would buy that. He used to do trabajos for them, you know, spiritual things. JJ: What’s a trabajo? MR: Like a spell. JJ: So you make a spell on somebody. An evil spell? MR: I don’t know. He always said it wasn’t. He always said it wasn’t, and a lot of times, and I don’t know if I should [00:19:00] say this on tape because I don’t know who’s gonna see it. But a lot of times when people would go and ask him to do evil things, he would take their money and say, “Yeah, I’m gonna do it.” And he’d do that so they wouldn’t go to somebody else and get it done. JJ: Right, but he wouldn’t do it. MR: He wouldn’t do things that he felt were evil. JJ: He only did the good things. He would do the good things. MR: Yeah. JJ: Well, okay. MR: My father’s funeral was enormous. His wake here was really packed, so a lot of people knew him through that and other stuff, I guess. Then he had a wake in Puerto Rico and a lot of people came to that. He had two wakes. 15 �JJ: He had a wake here. MR: And then they took his body to Puerto Rico and he had a huge wake there. JJ: So he was well known in Puerto Rico and here for that. That must’ve come down -- you said it might’ve come down from his father too? MR: Maybe. I don’t know. I don’t know [00:20:00] a lot about my grandparents since we grew up here and didn’t go back a lot. I knew my grandfather from pictures. He’s very dark. His name was Simplicio. JJ: Simplicio what? MR: Romero. JJ: Romero. And from the same town and everything? MR: Yes. Yes. JJ: But you don’t know anything about him? MR: Not too much, no. JJ: What did you know about him? MR: All I knew was that he lived to be very old, and this is because my father would complain about the food here. He would say that his father ate whatever he wanted and however he wanted and never got sick with diabetes or anything, and that from coming here, everyone got sick, you know. Him, his brothers, [00:21:00] and all of that. He used to say (Spanish) [00:21:02] in Puerto Rico. And over here, they change his diet completely and he still was diabetic and sick and stuff, even though I don’t think my father followed his diet. And he was a good granddad. JJ: So (inaudible) kind of runs in the culture. 16 �MR: It does, yeah. Yeah. I’m trying to fight it with diet because I don’t wanna take pills. I’m really against taking pills. And I guess I get it from him, and because I know he used to make medicines, so I’m trying to look into -- JJ: Trying to get some of that medicine? MR: Yeah, trying to be able to put that -- without the occult part, because it’s all natural medicine and natural healing. Like for instance, I was diagnosed with arthritis about nine years ago and I had been drinking apple cider vinegar [00:22:00] to help with my appetite. And I researched it further, and if you take organic apple cider vinegar every morning, it helps you with your arthritis. I don’t take any pain medication and it’s been, what, nine years? That’s what I take in the morning. I drink apple cider vinegar in water and I don’t have to take all those medications, and those medications messed up my mom. You know, I saw my parents deteriorate and a lot of it, I think it was because of the medication that they were given here, the pills, because they may fix your pain, but they mess up your stomach. They give you medicine for fungus and it messes up your liver. JJ: Right, right, that’s right. You’ve got to take one pill for another thing. MR: Yeah. Recently I went to the doctor and I -- JJ: It’s business. It’s a big business. MR: Yeah. They’ve been telling me for years that I’m borderline diabetic, so I’ve been trying to control it with diet. [00:23:00] Then the last time I went to the doctor, he tells me that they’ve changed the way they measure it, so now instead of being borderline diabetic, I’m diabetic. I asked him what new medication came out that you need patients for. I’m not taking it. I’m gonna continue with diet and talk to a 17 �nutritionist and see what happens. So we’re there. But my son was diagnosed diabetic and he takes medication every day. I just fight it. JJ: Yeah, take pills, yeah. The diet does work pretty good. And the medicine, I mean, like, people in China, there’s like a billion people. That’s all they use is natural -- MR: Herbal medicines? JJ: Herbal medicines. So that’s a billion people. They must know what they’re talking about. MR: Right. JJ: And it is part of [us?]. So it looks like in later years, you’re kind of [00:24:00] looking into what your father was doing, but at that time, you didn’t believe in it because you were a Catholic? MR: Well, when I started helping him in his botánica, I was older, and by then I had become a Christian. I didn’t believe in the idolatry. I didn’t believe in praying to saints, including the Catholic church. And from when I was little, my father always taught me to pray to Jesus. That may have influenced how I felt. JJ: So you can pray to Jesus, but not to saints. MR: Right. Right. JJ: So you believe that. Okay. MR: Jesus and God, one and the same to me. But you don’t need intermediary to pray to God. JJ: Okay. I see what you’re saying. So the saint would be like a -- MR: Yeah. 18 �JJ: There’s somebody in between. MR: Yeah. Why go through the middle man when you could go straight to the big guy, so to speak? JJ: [00:25:00] Okay. Why go to a retail when you can go -- MR: Exactly. Exactly. JJ: Okay. Van Buren, how long did you live there about? MR: We were there till I was in, like, sixth grade, the beginning of sixth grade. That’s when we moved north. That’s when my brothers and sisters went to Newberry. JJ: Oh, they went to Newberry School in Lincoln Park. MR: Yes, that’s when we moved to Lincoln Park. JJ: About what year was that? MR: Let’s see, sixth grade. Maybe around ’67. JJ: In ’55, you came, right? Oh, sixth grade. MR: But I was in sixth grade. We moved north. JJ: So you lived a lot of years on Van Buren. MR: On Van Buren, on Harrison. It wasn’t just [00:26:00] Van Buren. I remember Van Buren more because we lived there the longest. But we lived on Harrison Street and I don’t know what other places we lived at, but I know that the last school I remember was Skinner School. In kindergarten, I went to McLaren School. I don’t remember where that was. But it’s West Side. I believe it was the West Side of Chicago, all of those. JJ: Okay, so you went to sixth grade in Newberry. 19 �MR: No, I went to Arnold. My brothers and sisters went to Newberry. Then since I was in sixth grade, Arnold was the upper grade center. JJ: Oh, the upper grade center, you have sixth, seventh, and eighth. MR: Right, and then I graduated from there. My brother graduated from there from grade school. We went to Waller. JJ: Okay. When you went to Arnold and your brothers and sisters went to Newberry, where did you live? MR: On Halsted Street. JJ: Halsted and what? Do you remember the address? MR: Eighteen forty-one North Halsted. So it was [00:27:00] almost to the -- what was the Del Farm, almost to North Avenue. Isn’t that where the Del Farm was? JJ: Del Farm was the supermarket? MR: Mm-hmm, or maybe it was an A&P. JJ: Yeah, it was on North Avenue. North Avenue and Halsted, there was one. MR: Exactly. JJ: We lived right behind there. MR: Oh. JJ: We were on North Avenue and Halsted, because then there was (inaudible) and transformers, a factory next to it. That was by the L tracks. Right by the L tracks. Okay. Now, that’s like 1600. That’s not 1800, that’s 1600. North Avenue is 1600. MR: Yeah, but we were a few blocks before that. JJ: Going towards Armitage? 20 �MR: Mm-hmm. JJ: Oh, so you were in 1800 like you said. You said 18 what? MR: Eighteen forty-one. JJ: Eighteen forty-one Halsted. MR: Yeah. JJ: So then you were closer to Wisconsin [00:28:00] and Halsted, I think. MR: Maybe. JJ: I’m not sure. Wisconsin started at 1900, I believe. So you were there just before you get to Wisconsin, between Willow and Wisconsin. MR: Yeah, I remember Willow. JJ: Okay, you remember Willow, okay. Because there was a store there on the corner. MR: Yeah. What was the name of that store? JJ: El Campo. [Remember when we asked for?]. El Campo Foods. MR: I remember that. JJ: Yeah. What do you remember about that? MR: I remember my father used to shop there. I remember my father always used to make the compra, but my mom stopped him because he used to buy a lot of junk. He used to buy a lot of sweets, and then in the middle of the week, there was no meat. JJ: Yeah, (Spanish) [00:28:44] Mario, and he used to -- you know, Clark Street before he was there. So you went from Van Buren to there. How was Arnold? What do you remember about Arnold? 21 �MR: [00:29:00] That’s where I first heard about the Young Lords, in that area. JJ: What did you hear about the Young Lords? MR: I used to get their pamphlets. JJ: So the Young Lords were political. So this was ’69. MR: Yes, that’s the year I graduated from the eighth grade. JJ: Okay. MR: I remember I used to bring there -- JJ: Sixty-nine, you graduated from -- MR: Yes. JJ: So you heard about the Young Lords. So was that a big thing there? MR: It was a big deal to me. It was a big deal to all our family. JJ: To the family? MR: Well, yeah. JJ: People were talking about them? MR: They did. The parents didn’t talk about them real good. I used to have to hide the pamphlets, bring them home and hide them because I’d get in trouble. JJ: Oh, so the parents were against the Young Lords. MR: Yeah. Yeah. It politicized me. I was like, you know, the things they’re talking about, they’re true. JJ: What did the parents say? MR: That they were gangueros. JJ: Okay, gangueros. They were gang members? 22 �MR: I remember, [00:30:00] (Spanish). I remember that. I’d be like, okay, you know. I remember I had a friend, a Native American friend that I knew from school, and she had been at some event and came to my house to visit me, and my parents got really upset. They wanted me to ask her to leave, and so she left. JJ: Because she was Native American? MR: No, because she was involved in that. JJ: With the Young Lords? MR: Yes. And I think she had just been at an event that the Young Lords had had or something like that and was talking to me about it. I was getting really excited and my parents were like, “No, you’re not gonna be involved in this.” JJ: So there was talk in the neighborhood about the Young Lords. MR: Yeah. JJ: Some were for, some were against, but they were talking. Everybody was talking about them. MR: Yeah, because that’s when I first heard about urban renewal. JJ: Because (inaudible) for it. MR: That’s where I heard about urban renewal. I think I learned about Plan 21 [00:31:00] later on. JJ: Okay. How were you feeling? Your parents were against it. MR: It excited me and it attracted me, but my parents were very strict. JJ: What excited you about it? 23 �MR: That they were going against things that were wrong or that I was seeing, that things were really wrong, like the racism and all of that was really true, that it wasn’t imagined. JJ: Okay. How did you see that? I mean, how did you see the racism? MR: Just like how some of the teachers would treat you. The area we lived in were mostly Latinos. We had issues with the Blacks, and sometimes I felt racism like that. But, yeah, a feeling that just things weren’t right. I didn’t understand why we always had to move. [00:32:00] Our landlords were always white fat old men, you know? It just started. Not really, but started to make things clear to me. I saw the Black movement. It gave me pride that we were dealing with things that were wrong as well. It wasn’t all about Black power all the time, even though that was good too. But we were doing something and that gave me pride. JJ: They said, “Well, let us get some of that too,” right? MR: That’s right. That’s right. I remember when they took over the church. I saw it on TV and I was like, yeah, you know? The programs that they were starting and things like that, it gave me a sense of pride and of relief that we weren’t just standing by and taking it, that we were doing something about it. JJ: So now at that time, did you [00:33:00] ever come by the church at all? MR: No, they didn’t let me. JJ: Oh, your parents wouldn’t let you go. MR: Uh-uh. All I could do was get the pamphlets. JJ: Were they worried that you would go there? MR: Yeah. Yeah, they were. 24 �JJ: So they were trying to keep their daughters in the house. Did they say anything to the guys, to the boys, or no? Was it just a daughter thing? MR: My father was strict with all of us. But, yeah, whenever anything happened, the boys always got to go and we were always in the house. I always tried. “Can I go?” “No.” And no, like, you’re crazy, why are you even asking? But that was the issue between my dad and I. JJ: So what were the kids saying, the youth? What were they saying -- MR: In school? JJ: -- at Arnold, yeah. MR: It was mostly going to and coming from school that we’d get pamphlets, that we’d get -- JJ: [00:34:00] What do you mean? The Young Lords were passing pamphlets? MR: Yeah, or whoever. I don’t remember if it was there that I got Pa’lante. I don’t remember real clear. But I know there was when I began to get politically educated, I guess. Then we moved north after that. My uncles moved and their families moved to the West Side, what we called the West Side, which was around here. We moved north. We lived on Elaine Street. JJ: Okay. So some of your family came west and some went north. Was this when they started moving people out? MR: Yeah. JJ: Or was this just because you wanted to move? MR: Well, rent was too high in the area, so they found another neighborhood to move into. That’s when we moved north. 25 �JJ: [00:35:00] Okay. So this was around ’70, something like that? MR: Probably. JJ: Okay. So you moved to? MR: Yes, it was around ’70. I went to Waller for my freshman year. JJ: Okay, so that would’ve been 1970. MR: Then we moved and I was still at Waller. JJ: What was Waller like in 1970? MR: It was fine with me. I remember I participated in the -- remember girls could only wear skirts to school? In my freshman year, we would go to our classes and wear pants and then get kicked out and then go to our next class. I think that was my first experience with organizing and doing any kind of direct action, although I didn’t know about it then. JJ: So they were organizing at Waller at that time in the 1970s, and probably a result of some of the work that the Young Lords and the other groups were doing in the neighborhood. MR: Probably. JJ: Because they were organizing. MR: Mm-hmm. JJ: [00:36:00] Okay. I mean, I don’t wanna put words in your mouth. How did that start, wearing the pants? Who did that? Who was organizing that? MR: I don’t remember. I don’t remember who was organizing it, but I got wind of it and I said, “Oh, yeah.” I remember I didn’t have a lot of pants because they didn’t let me wear pants a lot. I had like maybe two pairs. And just to make sure 26 �that I wore pants every day, I would wash them and dry them at night, then finish ironing them dry just to make sure that I wore pants. I’d tell my mother, “No, we have to wear pants today.” Of course, they believed us, which is why my kids didn’t get away with anything because I knew what I used to tell my parents. So they weren’t able to tell me the same things. I’d be like, yeah, right, I used to do that. But, yeah, and a lot of the teachers supported it and they would just mark us, that we came to class, and kick us out because they had to kick us out. JJ: Oh, so the teachers were supporting the -- MR: A lot of the teachers [00:37:00] were. Some weren’t, but a lot of the teachers supported, yeah. JJ: At Waller High School. MR: Mm-hmm. And then I went to Lakeview for a little bit. JJ: Okay. Now, before we get to Lakeview, at Halsted and Dickens was a restaurant. Were you familiar with that? You weren’t there during that time. MR: Halsted and Dickens? JJ: It’s before the Young Lords got political. There was a hot dog stand there at Halsted and Dickens. Or you didn’t go there? MR: Yes, real good fries. Real good french fries, right? JJ: Right. Puerto Ricans used to hang around there too. MR: Yes. JJ: Okay, so that was from before. MR: I remember that. 27 �JJ: But it still was there for a while. But I think at that time, it was on the other side. I think they moved to the other side. You said Lakeview? Then you went to Lakeview? MR: Yes, I went to Lakeview for the end of my freshman year and part of my sophomore year. Then I left high school. JJ: Then you left high school. So where were you living at when you went to Lakeview? MR: Started at Lakeview, [00:38:00] we lived on Elaine. JJ: So Elaine Place is where. Elaine and what other street? What’s the address? Do you know the address? MR: I don’t remember the address. JJ: Okay, Elaine Place, it was called. MR: And we lived on Roscoe and Clark around that time. JJ: So was Elaine around Roscoe? MR: Yeah, it was near. It was close by. JJ: What do you remember there? Who do you remember there? MR: I remember Latin Kings on Roscoe. On Roscoe and Halsted, I remember. Yeah, and the guys playing football in front. A Puerto Rican community there. There was a restaurant on Clark and Roscoe that was, like, real old school, and they sold fountain drinks and hot dogs the way they used to make them before. We used to go there a lot because it was close to the house. Still, my family was real strict, and that’s when we [00:39:00] used to sneak out of the house. My brothers started sneaking out of the house, and I remember my dad would come 28 �home and sit in the kitchen with his beer. I would stand in his view so that my brother would go out the door, and then I’d go open the window so that he’d come back at night. After a while, I was like, “Yeah, I wanna do that too, so you’ve gotta do it for me.” So we had to switch over. All I would do is go walking around with my friend, looking at the guys or whatever. Then I’d come home, or I’d go to the library a lot. I never made it to the library. I don’t think I knew where the library was. But that’s where I said I’d be going, or to the store. But my parents were real strict. My father particularly was real strict and I guess the way to protect us was to keep us in the house. We weren’t having it, or I Wasn’t having it. JJ: That’s for the guys and the girls. MR: Yeah. Yeah. My older brother [00:40:00] started working, and he worked at Jewel part-time. To get out, he would just always say he was working and they believed him. But he actually wasn’t. He got very involved in the African American movement and was talking a lot about Black power and wore dashikis. JJ: Which? MR: Carmelo. JJ: Carmelo, okay. MR: Yeah. JJ: So he was talking about Black power. MR: Most of his friends were Black, so he was all into that. JJ: But did he keep the closeness to the Puerto Rican community too or no? MR: Not during that time. Not during that time. 29 �JJ: At that time, it was more the Black Americans. MR: Yeah. JJ: Okay, Afro Americans, okay. So he would bring that home. He would try to teach people about that? MR: He would talk about it. JJ: Did he talk about Malcolm X or anybody? MR: Yes. JJ: So he talked about Malcolm X. Okay. MR: Yeah. JJ: Because [00:41:00] there was no Latino movement, Puerto Rican movement. MR: I guess not. JJ: Okay, that he could relate to. MR: Right. JJ: He didn’t relate to the Young Lords. MR: I don’t think so. JJ: Okay. Okay. So now the other brothers, though, Chinatown, there was the other one that used to sneak through the window. MR: Uh-huh. JJ: Was he a member of a youth group? MR: During that time, he may have been. I don’t know who he was affiliated when we lived on Roscoe. It wasn’t until we moved. JJ: But he wasn’t with the Kings. 30 �MR: No. No. When we moved to what they call Wrigleyville now, that’s when he became involved with the Latin Eagles. JJ: With the Latin Eagles. Affiliated with them. Okay, because I know he was pretty well known in the Latin Eagles, one of the main people. MR: And that’s where we met Pops and [00:42:00] [Kooks?] and all the Jiménez and all the other people in the area that we finished growing up with. JJ: Did you live on Sheffield? Is that where you lived? Where did you live? MR: Let me think. I lived on Sheffield when I lived on my own. JJ: Not when you lived alone, but with your family. MR: With my family, we lived on Elaine. Then we lived on Roscoe. Then I believe it was Fremont. JJ: Oh, Fremont. Okay. Fremont. MR: And Grace. JJ: Oh, Fremont and Grace, okay. MR: Close to LeMoyne School. JJ: Okay. MR: My brothers and sisters, I was out of school. We lived on Halsted as well, on Halsted and Broadway in the building where my dad’s botánica was. But during that time, I was in Job Corps. JJ: Halsted, [Bowling?], Grace. MR: Yes. JJ: There was the botánica. So you lived there, okay. 31 �MR: [00:43:00] During that time, I was in Job Corps, so I wasn’t at home. My family lived on Halsted. Then they moved to Fremont and I came back home. Then I moved out, and that’s when I lived on Sheffield. That’s when I got the apartment on Sheffield. [Danny?] was born. JJ: You have one child, Danny. MR: Yeah. Well, I have two more now. JJ: Who are your children now? MR: [Ana?]. She’s in her room. Yeah, she’s in her room. Then I have an older daughter, [Jasmine?]. She’s married. Danny’s between apartments, so he’s here with me now for a few days, hopefully. Yeah, I’m trying to empty my nest. My youngest one still lives with me. She’s at Northeastern. She’s finishing up there. My older daughter went to Kentucky [00:44:00] and studied in a Bible college, and then she got married out there to un güero. Nice guy, though. Now she’s finishing up early childhood development as she works as a nanny. JJ: Okay. So you did some work with Job Corps, you said. MR: I was a -- JJ: Participant. MR: Yes. Yes. They would pay us -- I remember it was 14.22 every two weeks. But I liked Job Corps. I enjoyed it. We led a protest there too. JJ: Fourteen twenty-two, what do you mean? MR: Fourteen dollars and twenty-two cents was our spending money. JJ: Oh, that was your spending money. And they paid for everything? MR: Yeah, they (inaudible). 32 �JJ: What city was this? MR: This was here in Chicago on 15th and Indiana. The building became a work release after that. JJ: Fifteenth and Indiana? MR: Fifteen hundred South Indiana. I was there two years. I studied Allied Health, nurse’s aide medical [00:45:00] assisting. Not medical assisting, dental assisting. I became a medical assistant much later on. But it was a training program. We finished high school there because I got caught cutting while I was at Lakeview. I used to go to all the Cubs games and I’d go Ladies Day on Fridays, and Wednesdays I’d go and be with the [bleacher bums?]. JJ: Ladies Day was free. Ladies Day was free. MR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. MR: And Wednesdays, the bleachers were a dollar, so a friend of mine and I used to cut school and go there. One day my sister, Julie, was home from school, watching, of course, the Cubs game, and she saw me on TV. I came home and - JJ: They [got it?]. MR: Yeah. So then at the same time, I guess it was just the time for me to get caught out. My mother had received a phone call from school about all my cuts because I didn’t like Lakeview. [00:46:00] It was like a culture shock. We were the minority. Blacks and Latinos were basically the minority at Lakeview when I went there. All the teachers were. 33 �JJ: What years did you say? MR: Seventy-one, ’72. There was a handful of African Americans there. That’s what I was accustomed to going to school with, and that’s the people I sought out. Then I discovered how easily I could go to a Cubs game and they didn’t let me go out at home, so I would go out while I was in school. I’d go to Piper’s Alley. JJ: What, in Oldtown, Piper’s Alley? MR: Yes. Yes, and just walking around. I remember we used to walk everywhere downtown because we never had any money, so everywhere we went, we walked. Whatever money we had, we’d use it to eat. But that day. I got caught up [00:47:00] and then my father said I had to quit school and I had to get a job. So we went to the Urban Progress Center. JJ: Where was that at? MR: On Montrose in Newtown. In Newtown? What is it? Is that what we called it? JJ: Yeah, I know which one you’re talking about. It was on Broadway. MR: Broadway and Montrose. JJ: Yeah, around there somewhere. MR: Around Wilson. JJ: Oh, that’s a different one I’m thinking. But on Wilson and around Montrose. MR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: They both run the same way, but it’s between there on Broadway. MR: Yeah. So he took me there to see if they could help me get a job. A gentleman there talked to me about Job Corps and they said, “Leave home. You would leave home.” I was like, yeah. Then I brought all the paperwork home and I 34 �begged my mother to convince my father [00:48:00] to sign it, so he did. Then I would come home on weekends. That was a good experience. JJ: A good experience? MR: I think so. JJ: Okay. You learned a few things there? MR: Yeah. Then they had a passage the parents had to sign for, and I forged my parents’ names, so I was able to go out. I wasn’t the greatest kid, you know. JJ: I mean, did you graduate from there? MR: Yes, I did. I got a nurse’s aide certificate there and I got a certificate for innovation therapy. I was on the -- what did we call it? It wasn’t student council. It was some kind of supposedly governing body that we had there. Of course, when we started holding teachers and the [00:49:00] the officials accountable, they weren’t real happy with that. JJ: At the Job Corps? MR: At Job Corps. JJ: What do you mean, you held them accountable? MR: Well, they had fired the director of education. Apparently he and a woman, another woman there had an affair, and they fired him for it but didn’t fire her. So we led a protest. They didn’t hire him back. JJ: So you led a protest, meaning what? MR: With the -- uh-uh, Ashley, go -- we led a protest and we wanted him hired back, but what happened was they ended up firing her. (laughter) I remember we led a hunger strike and we had organized some of the teachers. We would go and 35 �leave the food there after they had prepared it. We’d just put it back on the tray [00:50:00] full. Then we’d go back to our rooms and we had people that had brought us sandwiches and soda and things like that. JJ: So they snuck it? MR: Yeah. They would get food to us so we were eating, but we weren’t eating their food. JJ: And they thought you had the hunger strike. MR: Yeah. Yeah. I remember meeting with a group from the Black Panther Party with the gentleman that we were fighting for. At first he told us not to, and then when we saw that we were determined to do something, then we used to go -sometimes we wouldn’t go home. We’d go home with some of the teachers, and one of the teachers supposedly took us home and we went to a meeting. This is where they taught us how to do the hunger strike and who was gonna be giving us food and how to organize. JJ: Oh, so they were like teaching, the Panthers? At that time, they were teaching you how to do the hunger strike? MR: Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing [00:51:00] to me. I enjoyed it, you know. We were successful in getting her out of there too because we just settled for that. If they weren’t gonna hire him back, she had to go as well, and she did. JJ: So this was the Job Corps. Now, also you said you lived on Fremont and Grace. MR: Grace. When I came back from Job Corps, that’s where my family was living. I was in Job Corps two years. JJ: So you came back from Job Corps around ’73. 36 �MR: Yes. JJ: And ’73, that’s when the Young Lords moved in, basically? MR: Seventy-four because I had my son by then. JJ: Seventy-four, 1974. MR: I think Danny was three or four months. JJ: From ’73 to ’74, what did you do? MR: I was with my son’s father. I left home and I had my son and we were together. Then we broke up, and right around that time when we broke up, I was looking for work. I passed by the office and that’s where I met Angie. JJ: [00:52:00] The Young Lords’s office? MR: Uh-huh. JJ: On Wilton and Grace? MR: On Wilton and Grace. JJ: Was it nicely painted? MR: I don’t remember. JJ: What color was the paint? MR: I don’t remember. JJ: You don’t know? There was [a weird opinion?]. Was it purple? MR: Something like that. I don’t remember. I know it was different because it attracted my attention. It was right across the street from Figaro. You remember Figaro, right? The grocery store? JJ: Oh, Figaro was a grocery store on the corner? MR: Right across from the office with [Milta?], the wife and the two daughters. 37 �JJ: No, no, okay. So tell me about them because I’ve seen a picture of them. So his name was Figaro? MR: I don’t think that was his real name. JJ: No, but that’s what they called him, Figaro and his [wife?]. MR: Yeah, and he owned a lot of property. He stayed. JJ: But his wife was Milta and he had two children? MR: Milta, and he had two daughters. JJ: And he had been there for a while? MR: Yes. And I remember that they were trying to get him to move out. They were trying to get him to sell and [00:53:00] he owned several buildings in the area. JJ: What do you mean, they were trying to get him to move out and sell? MR: They were trying to gentrify him, however it was that they were making people sell their housing or whatever. He sold everything in the area but that store and he ended up staying quite a while after that, keeping the store there. Then he moved up this way. But they set his store on fire. They offered him money. He said no, he said he was staying. (Spanish) [00:53:29]. F1: (Spanish) [00:53:32]. MR: Oh, okay. Okay, (Spanish) [00:53:35]. They harassed him quite a bit and he was just a stubborn person. He says, “I ain’t going. I know what they’re doing.” Probably it was through education -- JJ: From the Young Lords. MR: -- from the Young Lords. JJ: Because he was right there. 38 �MR: Exactly. JJ: So he decided he was gonna fight. MR: And he did for a long time. He stayed until he wanted to. But he could afford it, you know. But [00:54:00] they set his store on fire. They did a lot of stuff to him, harassed him quite a bit. JJ: You know that it had to do with trying to get him out of there. And he knew that too? MR: Yeah. He knew it then. I didn’t realize it until I saw it happen in this area. JJ: In this community on the West Side. MR: In this community. I saw people that had paid, like, 45,000 dollars for their homes being pushed out. Aldermen, one in particular, that a person would go to his office to ask for a permit to do some remodeling and he’d say, “No, I’m not gonna give you the permit. I’ll give you 300 grand for your house.” Some people would sell. The ones that didn’t wanna sell all of the sudden would get all kind of building inspectors coming and all kind of fines levied on them and just all different kind of harassment. [00:55:00] So I know. I understand better what they did to people back then, just seeing it happen here. JJ: Because that was a community, right? MR: Exactly. JJ: Where you lived at, I mean. It wasn’t just you that lived. There were other Puerto Ricans that lived there. MR: Right, other Puerto Rican families. It was the Jiménez. It was the Colones. It was all the artists. Camandiera was in that area too. He had been in that area 39 �since Roscoe and Halsted as well, though I didn’t know him then. I got to know him when I was working with the Young Lords and my brother’s relationship to him and their art and when they did the mural. JJ: So it became clear what was going on at that time. MR: Right, I understood it better when I saw it happen here, when I worked on issues here and spoke to -- because here it wasn’t so much rental. It was more homeowners, and still they were pushed out. I remember speaking to people before in this area [00:56:00] and they would say, “No, that’s not gonna happen here.” My uncles would say, “That’s not gonna happen here. We own our property.” And it did. It did. All of Wicker Park, all that area is gone now. JJ: The whole community. Wicker Park as a community. MR: Exactly. JJ: It was primarily Puerto Rican. MR: Exactly. Now the only what you would call -- JJ: Your uncles were living there in Wicker Park? MR: My uncles lived in Humboldt Park. JJ: Okay. But they owned homes and they were -- MR: They owned homes and they were pushed out. JJ: How were they pushed out? MR: I’m really not sure. Not able to get permits to remodel. JJ: And (inaudible) remodel. They had to remodel but they couldn’t get the permits. MR: Right, but they couldn’t get the permits. Some felt they did all right because they sold their homes, and that’s what some of my uncles did. They sold and they 40 �moved to Puerto Rico. Property [00:57:00] taxes are ridiculous in this area, and your home would be paid for, but you couldn’t afford your property taxes. Like I said, there was this one particular alderman which I’m really happy to say that the last I heard of him, he was a used car salesman a few years ago. But Alderman Jesse Grenado. JJ: Jesse Grenado. MR: Yeah, and he just was a jerk. (laughs) That’s the nicest way I could put it. I could say other stuff, but I’m on tape. He was crooked. I have my issues with politicians anyway, but this was a very evil man, and whatever happened to him, he deserved. JJ: Just going back a little bit, so you went through a divorce and then you were on Sheffield, in that area. Then you walked by the Young Lords office. MR: I was looking for work and that was an office that [00:58:00] was just open, so I figured they may need somebody. I walked in there, and that’s when I met Angie. JJ: Angie? MR: Angie Lind. JJ: Lind at that time. She was Angie Lind. MR: Yes. That’s when I met her and I met Faith. JJ: You met Faith. Who else? Faith Schumaker. MR: Yes. JJ: Okay. Who else? MR: And [Cosmo?. JJ: Jose Cosmo Torres. 41 �MR: Yes. And you and Yoli. JJ: Okay, and Yolanda Lucas. MR: That’s when I started -- JJ: Which was my wife then at that time. MR: Yes, and that’s when I began going to the meetings. JJ: What kind of meetings? I mean, what do you mean, you went to the meetings? MR: I had meetings with Angie. I started talking with Faith. Faith, I talked a lot to. JJ: Because Angie kind of ran the office at that time. MR: Yes. I found out it was volunteer, so I had my reservations because I felt I needed to make some money. JJ: But you volunteered a lot, didn’t you? MR: Yeah. And then [00:59:00] I ended up just working at the office every day all the time. JJ: You were volunteering all day, not getting paid or anything like that. MR: No. Even now I’ve learned to respect how the Young Lords worked because we, having dealt with different organizations and seeing how they work and how they owe a certain politician, you know, because they’ve gotten money from this group of people so they can’t step on toes, whereas the Young Lords would get their money -- I remember collecting food stamps from people. People would do pledges, and that’s how they supported themselves so they didn’t owe big politicians any money. They could step on whoever’s toes they wanted because they didn’t owe anybody anything, which was something that was really hard to deal -- which I didn’t get for a long time, working with all these other 42 �organizations (Spanish) [00:59:51] and you don’t step on their toes. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you. [01:00:00] And I learned to appreciate that better, like this, you know, where you couldn’t really organize. You had to organize on what they wanted you to organize on. JJ: Because it wasn’t really a job. With the Young Lords. MR: Right, with the Young Lords, it was something I believed in. That’s when I learned more detailed about Plan 21 and urban renewal and people being pushed out and how we’re being pushed to the suburbs. JJ: So there was an education component. MR: Yes, politically educated, and understanding what a monster our wonderful mayor was. Yes, the Daddy, right? It was still the Daddy, yeah. And consecutive mayors, we’ve had till this day. JJ: Right, (inaudible). MR: And I understood too, I learned that when you saw changes in the community, like when I lived in Logan [01:01:00] Square, by then I knew that when you start seeing -- when a library comes, when a new church comes, when there’s a bank -- not a library, a bank -- a new church -- I educated my kids. I’d see these new little gardens and I’d be like, “Oh, the yuppies are coming. We’re gonna have to move. This is what happened.” And my kids understood it. As a matter of fact, my kids, if my kids have to move, we can pack up a house in an evening. We can take all this and pack it in an evening as long as we have all the supplies, because we moved so much. In Logan Square, on one street, we lived on every block from Kedzie and Albany to Albany and Belden. I can count about maybe 43 �eight buildings that we lived in until we moved here. [01:02:00] This is an affordable housing development, and that’s one of the only ways that people have been able to stay in this community. It’s been fought. We had to fight hard to get this building from people, the homeowners that are I guess brainwashed, that they don’t understand because they always say that Bickerdike is gonna bring prostitutes and drug dealers and all kind of unsavory characters to the neighborhood when to begin with, this is our neighborhood anyway. We were here. JJ: And Bickerdike is the organization that gets -- MR: A housing organization, and they do affordable housing. They have Section 8 project-based housing, which are the townhouses. They have a couple in Wicker Park. They’ve had to attend -- like a tenant organizer would have to attend the CAPS meetings just to keep people [01:03:00] from making our tenants the villains, you know. If we weren’t there, then after a while -- JJ: Have they ever made the tenants the villains? MR: Yeah, because developers would tell people when they move in, “Oh, don’t worry about them.” “What about that housing over there?” “Don’t worry about them. They’ll be gone.” And that’s not true. Bickerdike owns their housing and they’re not going anywhere, and it’s gonna be for low-income families always. Of course, they don’t like that. They want to turn the neighborhood white and, you know, people of color -- any color except white -- is not acceptable to them, even though they’re not from here. These people were here before they were. 44 �JJ: But it is mostly white people that are moving in. But what I’m saying, do you think they also wanna get rid of the poor? MR: Of course. It’s rich white, I should say, or whites with money. JJ: You can say it any way you want. MR: Or whites [01:04:00] that think they got money. Some of them are part of the 99 percent anyway but they don’t know that. They may be realizing that now. But at that time, some of them are living off their parents’ credit cards and just got out of college or whatever. I think a lot of them have had rude awakenings, you know, and a lot of these developers too because I see a lot of the condos that they built are still empty four or five years. JJ: You did some work also with Bickerdike, right? MR: A lot of work with Bickerdike. A lot of tenant organizing. JJ: Okay, so tell me about what kind of work did you do? How was your work? MR: I started with Bickerdike as a VISTA volunteer. I worked with the Chicago Alliance for Neighborhood Safety and I worked on dealing with issues of safety in the community. JJ: Meaning what, issues of safety? [01:05:00] What do you mean? MR: Concerns that tenants at Bickerdike had, particularly. JJ: Like stoplights? MR: Yes. Quality of life things, like putting in stoplights, but also attending the CAPS meetings, having -- JJ: So attending a CAPS meeting, what does that mean? 45 �MR: Generally I would attend with leaders, with people from the community, so they could participate more because as a community was gentrifying, we were trying to show that our people were not the enemy. We worked together with cops sometimes successfully. JJ: Is that what they told you to say, that our people are not the enemy? I mean, is that the goal? Was that the goal? MR: The goal was to get people to live together more harmoniously and to show that we were [01:06:00] not the prostitutes, gang bangers, or whatever that they said we were, that decent people did live in public housing or -- JJ: So the city and these developers were scaring people, or telling them that we wanna get rid of the drug dealers, the gang members, and all that. And that was just a tool they were using. MR: Exactly. JJ: Am I putting words in your mouth? MR: No. No, but you’re saying it exactly as I would say it. Yeah, it was a tool to further gentrify the community, and because our tenants were there and they were there to stay, they would try to find reasons to move people out. True, everyone who lives at Bickerdike -- JJ: So how would you change it? How would you explain to people? MR: By showing them by participating in safety events or having safety events. By participating in CAPS meetings. By building block clubs [01:07:00] and including people that, newcomers -- is what we used to call them -- and people from the community -- 46 �JJ: Together. MR: Yes. I had two block clubs, and they were pretty successful. JJ: So how did you start the block club? How did you get it organized? MR: I’d go door knocking. I’d talk to people about whatever safety issues they had. JJ: You would ask them? You would do like a survey or something? MR: Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. A lot of times, you have to get to know people first, and they tell you what’s going on. JJ: You knock on the door. MR: Say, “Hi, I’m María. I work with Bickerdike, and can I speak to you for a little while?” Then I’d ask them about their safety concerns in the area. Sometimes it would be something that property management would fix. Sometimes it would be police harassment because they’d assume -- well, the cops, [01:08:00] somebody would call the police, and then they’d come and knock on the door and say, “Did you call the police?” That would make them a target, so it would discourage people from calling the police if something was going -- if there was a lot of drug dealing or people hanging out in front of our building, because they weren’t supposed to. You ask them to leave, they don’t listen. Then you call the cops. I always think of calling the cops as a last resort, but others didn’t. But anyway, I’d ask them what particular safety issues they were worried about. Sometimes it’d be -- JJ: I mean, they’d pay taxes. They got a right to protection from the police. 47 �MR: Sometimes they’d want a stoplight by the school or more police presence in the area and things like that. I also led or facilitated a garden committee. Bickerdike has two gardens. I had a committee, really [01:09:00] diverse -- JJ: What does the garden do? MR: We grew vegetables and flowers and things like that. But it was in areas that were kind of hot, and while we were there, because we were occupying public space, they wouldn’t come around. I think we got -- JJ: So these were hot areas, meaning for drugs and all that? MR: For drugs and gang banging. JJ: Because you were there all the time, they kinda stopped that. MR: Yeah. JJ: The gangs and the drugs stopped. In fact, didn’t that happen one time with the Young Lords on Wilton and Grace? Didn’t they clean up that area? MR: Yes, we did. JJ: Okay. I mean, at Wilton, just kind of go back there a little bit. So that used to be a drug corner, Wilton and Grace. MR: Oh, yeah, definitely, it was big time. JJ: Big time, until the Young Lords got there. MR: That’s true. JJ: And it got cleaned up. MR: And that corner got cleaned up, that’s true. JJ: So the Young Lords were able to clean up a drug hot spot, and what did they do? How did they do that? 48 �MR: [01:10:00] Just by being there. JJ: Just by being there, talking to the people. MR: Exactly. JJ: You were doing it with Bickerdike, (inaudible). MR: Yes, and a friend of mine, a coworker of mine and I had a block club on Rockwell and LeMoyne, between Rockwell and LeMoyne, Rockwell and North Avenue. We decided to have a big block party, so we went and we spoke to the guys in the area because regardless to what, they have a lot of control in the community. The gangs do have a lot of control in the community. They’re one of the powers that you have to deal with a lot of times, one of the first. So we went and we spoke to them and we asked them -- JJ: The gang members. MR: Yeah, we met with them, and -- JJ: So like the same work you were doing with the Young Lords. MR: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Yeah, ’cause we had block parties too. MR: Oh, I remember. I remember. [01:11:00] So we had a big block party on the weekend of the Puerto Rican parade. The guys even cooked. I mean, you know, I was happy to get them not to -- we asked no violence, no dealing on that day, and this guy tells me, “Yeah, well, people are bringing food. I’ll make some macaroni and cheese.” And I said, “You don’t know how to make macaroni and cheese.” Dude brought a pan like this and said, “Here.” I tasted it. It was good. Kids played and rode their bikes. We had organizations with information there 49 �about community resources and it was a really nice block party. We heard about it even from the cops for months, for years. JJ: What was the name of this gang? Do you remember? MR: The Ds. The Disciples. JJ: These were the Disciples? Okay. Okay. So the Disciples were doing macaroni and cheese and everything? They were pretty good? MR: Yeah, and they were all out there with their kids and their family. It was just a great [01:12:00] time. Years later, still even the cops talked about it at the CAPS meeting. JJ: Meaning it was good? MR: Yeah. Yeah. There were no problems and no issues. Whatever happened the next couple of days -- JJ: And so that was just kind of showing a little respect for them because they lived in that neighborhood. MR: Exactly. JJ: So that was another factor you had to deal with. You didn’t call it a factor. You called it something else, another component, or something. MR: Yeah. One of the powers in the community. JJ: One of the powers of the community. MR: Yeah, we went to them first, and then we went -- we even had -- JJ: So you went to the gangs first. MR: And the people that lived in the area. Everything else was a lot easier. 50 �JJ: Because they were really controlling that area anyway, so it was like going to another country and saying, “Here. You’re the leaders. We’re gonna respect you.” MR: Right. JJ: And that’s some of the stuff that the Young Lords -- met with the Eagles, the Latin Eagles. MR: And I believe that’s where I learned that, you know. JJ: From the Young [01:13:00] Lords? Okay. MR: That that’s what you had to do. I knew where to go first, and they were the first ones we had to talk to. JJ: Okay. All right. MR: Then we did a lot on housing. I think this one has a lot of the actions. This was our first action. JJ: Okay, you wanna show that to the camera? Show the camera. MR: Okay. JJ: Show that. I want to make copies of the pictures. MR: Yeah. This was our first action when I worked with the -- JJ: I think you have to lift it up. MR: Maybe I’ll just show you the pictures. JJ: Just show one. MR: Yeah. This was my first action when I worked with the Affordable Housing Committee on Bickerdike. JJ: Hold on, hold on, hold on. Okay, no leave it right there. 51 �MR: Okay. And my oldest daughter came on this action with me. She’s in some of the pictures, Jasmine. JJ: Okay. All right. MR: And then -- [01:14:00] good to see some of my leaders here. I have pictures -- JJ: We’ll show more. MR: Okay, of this? Okay, I’ll show you my daughter, and then you’ll get copies of it. JJ: Okay. Hold on, hold on, hold on. MR: My daughter’s the one on the bottom. JJ: On the right? Okay. MR: Right here, yeah. JJ: Right here. That’s your daughter? MR: Uh-huh, that’s my oldest daughter. JJ: Okay. All right. MR: I also did a fundraiser. We had a group that is called the Residents Council and we had a family holiday dinner, an event called a family holiday dinner. I have pictures of that as well. To raise funds for the holiday dinner or for family day, we would have a Mother’s Day [Dusty?] Dance. JJ: A Mother’s Day Dusty? MR: Yes. JJ: We don’t call that oldies but goodies. We call them dusties. MR: No, dusty dance. Rusty dusty sometimes. I was able to get this [01:15:00] guy that I knew from the North Side. [Nando?] is his name. He was a DJ. And since he started DJing, he DJed most of the events for Bickerdike after that. So I 52 �thought that was a good thing, at least for him. But we would dress up, and of course, we’d say ’60s, ’70s, and ’80s, but people come in anything, really crazy outfits. One time we had a bachelor auction and that was fun, interesting. What happened afterwards too, but I won’t go into that. (laughter) Some interesting -JJ: I mean, you can say generally. MR: Oh, no, I can’t say generally. JJ: You’ve got me (inaudible). MR: Yeah, when we turn off the camera. But, yeah, that was a lot of fun and pretty successful. JJ: What, you raised a lot of money? [01:16:00] Like a dollar each or two dollars? MR: No, tickets were maybe like five dollars, so we’d sell the tickets cheap. We were able to have an agreement with the liquor store, so we got high-end liquor, and the drinks were cheap. You had to pay for everything but it was really cheap. So we made a lot of money because people knew [we were here?]. JJ: And then you were able to return the bottles you didn’t use or something? MR: Yeah, we did that, and we just got deals on the liquor. JJ: And in the halls. MR: And donations. We had it at that hall that’s on Belmont and California. It’s not there anymore. I think they closed. Michelle’s Ballroom. We had several there. Really nice place. We had some at a couple other places, this place on North Avenue. JJ: No fights, none of that? MR: Huh? 53 �JJ: No fights? MR: No, never on any of our Dusty Dance, never. Nope, everyone came in peace to have a good time. They’d leave wasted, and after a few [01:17:00] of them, we’d have coffee to try and wake them up because we were concerned about people who were driving home and couldn’t even walk. So some people, we kept keys or drove them home. We’d stop selling liquor at a certain time so they could sober up, but a lot of fun. Mother’s Day Dusty Dance was a lot of fun. JJ: And are you working with Bickerdike now? MR: No, no, I’m not. But I had 10 years with them. It was good work. A lot of leaders. I still have relationships with a lot of leaders in some organizations that I worked with. It was for the most part a very good experience. I learned a lot there. JJ: The only thing I haven’t asked you was the alderman campaign. Were you involved with that at all? MR: With yours? JJ: The Manny alderman campaign? MR: Yes. JJ: What do you remember about that? Because one of the offices was a Young Lords office, right? MR: Yeah. Yeah. I remember that’s when we worked with Slim with the Campaign for Community [01:18:00] Control. JJ: Walter Slim Coleman? 54 �MR: Yes. He’s a minister now, and he’s married to Emma Lozano. He works on immigration issues mostly now. JJ: Right, immigrants rights issue, right. MR: Their church is on Division, I believe. JJ: (inaudible). MR: Exactly, yeah. JJ: The church is there, United Methodist church, yeah. MR: Yes. JJ: Actually he was one of the best men at my wedding. MR: Oh, yeah? (laughter) JJ: So [that was back then?]. Emma came later. MR: Yes. That’s where I learned to work on campaigns. I learned a lot. JJ: With the Young Lords? MR: Yes. Yes, and, you know, canvassing and talking to people about -- JJ: Door to door? MR: Exactly. So when I started working in Bickerdike, that was not a problem with me. I knocked on the door and talking to people. JJ: You weren’t afraid to knock on doors. MR: No. And I remember [01:19:00] some of the places we went to on that campaign. I remember one place in particular that we opened the entrance door and there were bugs falling on us. So this stuff over here was nothing. JJ: Roaches. 55 �MR: Yes. Yes. But we got in and we talked to people. I remember a lot of doorknocking. I remember this group that used to yell at us, Chris Cohen’s people. JJ: Chris Cohen, yeah, the guy we were running against. MR: Yeah, and they would yell at us, and sometimes we’d yell back. We’d try to be good. JJ: Yeah, they used to come with a police squad or something. Do you remember that? MR: No, I don’t remember that. I remember, though, police harassment a lot around the office. I remember they’d come and they’d put handcuffs on some of the guys. Not the Latin Eagles or the gang bangers, but the guys that [01:20:00] were doing the work, I remember that they’d handcuff them and they’d be yelling at them. JJ: So they didn’t go to the Latin Eagles. MR: Mm-mm, no, they were after the organizers, the people who were doing the work. JJ: Working on my campaign. MR: Yes. JJ: So they were putting handcuffs and that? MR: Yeah. I remember one time, they tried to arrest Cosmo, but the community was united at that time, people yelling from buildings. “Let him go,” and all other kind of stuff. I remember my mom yelling at cops during that time. We had a lot of community support. Everybody would come out when the cops would come. JJ: [So you got it from the store?], everybody? MR: Everybody would come out. 56 �JJ: The businessmen, the parents, the neighbors, the residents -- MR: Little kids. JJ: -- anytime they would harass the Young Lords, they would come out, or campaign workers. They were Young Lords and campaign workers. MR: I remember one time, they made a raid on one of the apartments in the building [01:21:00] and I remember -- JJ: Because everybody in the apartments were Young Lords. We had a tenant union because everybody was a Young Lord. MR: Yeah. (laughter) JJ: So the owner was our friend too. MR: I remember the crowd that went to the police station and -- JJ: So what happened? What happened that day? You said that they came. MR: They raided an apartment and they arrested -- I think some of the kids in the neighborhood were at a party. I remember Eddie lived upstairs. JJ: Eddie Ramirez. MR: And he came downstairs and they arrested him, yes. JJ: That’s (inaudible) brother, (inaudible) Ramirez’s brother, Eddie. MR: And they arrested him for no reason. So everyone went to the police station. Everybody’s parents. The place was packed. Everybody’s parents, everybody’s wife, brother, and sister. I learned this with Faith, that you walk into a place like you work there, and people don’t stop you. So I just [01:22:00] walked up the stairs, and from the corner of my eyes, I see this cop hitting my brother and I busted in, screaming and yelling. They just (inaudible). 57 �JJ: (inaudible) was Joyce. MR: I know. I know. I learned a lot about Jews. JJ: You just walk in there like you work here. So that was it. MR: I learned that from her. I learned a lot from Faith, a lot. A lot about Jewish people, but a lot about organizing. Yeah, she taught me a lot. JJ: So she was (inaudible) was a Young Lord?. MR: Yes, she was, and very dedicated. Very dedicated, yeah, she was. JJ: So there was Angie and Faith. MR: Yoli, Yolanda. JJ: [Nona?]. MR: I remember Nona, yeah. JJ: [Hank Jazinsky?]. MR: Yes, I remember them. JJ: Of the woman, and Cosmo, and some of the other guys. MR: Cosmo, Eddie, Gamayell, Lucky. I remember Lucky. JJ: [01:23:00] Chavez, Luis Chavez was there. MR: Yes, I remember him too. I remember working with the immigrant farmers. No grapes or lettuce, remember, and the rally. JJ: The farm workers were working with us, yeah. MR: And the rally, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) farm worker union, yeah. The rally where? MR: What was that? 58 �JJ: The Plaza Theatre, that one? We had another rally on Anderson. There was one too. MR: It was in a theater. JJ: Oh, in a theater. I think it was the Plaza Theatre at that time, up north. MR: I remember I met a gentleman, Chavez. JJ: Plaza International or something like that. MR: I remember telling people, “Don’t buy grapes or lettuce.” And they’re not buying lettuce and grapes, and I didn’t buy lettuce and grapes for a long time. I think just a few years ago, I started. JJ: Yeah, we did some work when we would go to the stores on Saturday mornings and take them out, [01:24:00] based on the store. They would take them out because we would put (inaudible) with the farm workers. So they worked with us. MR: Sesa Chavez. JJ: Sesa Chavez’s group, yeah. That was his group. MR: Yes. But I learned a lot. I believe that’s part of the reason I was hired at Bickerdike when they heard. Well, through [cans?], when I was hired as a VISTA volunteer. They had a lot of respect for the work of the Young Lords. JJ: Bickerdike also worked with the West Town Concerned Citizens Coalition, and we worked with them too. MR: Yeah, I know, before -- JJ: So they learned a lot of stuff from us. We learned from them, back and forth. Back and forth. So that was good. That’s good that you worked with them then. 59 �Okay, to finish it up a little bit, let me just say this. What do you think the most important thing you want people to -- in terms of remembering that you feel is important, remembering [01:25:00] your work. MR: My work? I think people need to realize that they have a voice, that public officials are accountable to us because we put them in office and we should make them do what we need them to do. That’s about it. END OF VIDEO FILE 60 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/edc3e851e94354f81b4fdd0ee3074a76.mp4 20089aaf20ae56ca2e2599a0cd535326 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry María Romero vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Romero_Maria Title A name given to the resource María Romero video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Romero, María Description An account of the resource María Romero first joined the Young Lords on Wilton and Grace Streets. She was recruited by then Angie Lind-Rizzo (later Angie Adorno) and the other Young Lord women members. It was 1973 and the Young Lords were emerging from two long years of being completely underground, or inoperative publicly as a human rights organization. There were no longer remnants of the Young Lords Movement left in the Lincoln Park neighborhood that gave birth to them in 1968. The Lincoln Park neighborhood had been cleaned out of Puerto Ricans and the poor, in just a few years, by city hall and the Lincoln Park Neighborhood Association. A directive was given by the leadership for the Young Lords members to move and to establish themselves as a base of operations in the Lakeview Neighborhood, at Wilton and Grace Streets. Many Young Lords moved there with their families. Prior to that, a group of about 25 Young Lords had moved to a rural, rented farm near Tomah, Wisconsin. The farm camp was called a “Training School,” and their sole purpose for their camp was to train new Young Lord’s leaders who would step in and lead the Young Lords. Repression had hit extremely hard within the Lincoln Park Movement, splitting it in several directions. This was aided by pending trials of several Young Lords leaders and the still unsolved murders of United Methodist Rev. Bruce Johnson and his wife Eugenia, of the Young Lords People’s Church. Rainbow Coalition leader of the Black Panther Party, Fred Hampton, and Mark Clark were also assassinated in a raid organized by the States Attorney. The Lincoln Park Movement had seized to exist. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, who was then in hiding from the police after being sentenced to one year in Cook County Jail and who had 17 more felony indictments still pending, called for the organizing of a training school in a secluded farm near Tomah, Wisconsin. After members received their training in the farm camp for one and a half years, it was decided that Mr. Jiménez would voluntarily turn himself in, begin serving the year and start to fight the remaining cases which included bond jumping and many trumped up charges of mob actions for demonstrations. The Young Lords would raise his bond, hire attorneys, and then switch their organizing in Lakeview and Uptown where many of the Puerto Ricans of Lincoln Park had moved. They had also moved to Wicker Park and Humboldt Park but the Young Lords wanted to concentrate their forces. If this move was not done, the movement started in Lincoln Park would completely collapse. After serving the year, Mr. Jiménez announced his Aldermanic Campaign for the 46th Ward, as an Independent Democrat. He would use the election not as an electoral revolution but, “as an organizing vehicle for change.” Among other things the campaign would focus on Mayor Daley’s forced displacement of the Puerto Rican Community from the near lakefront and near downtown areas of the city. It not only boldly opposed the banks, the developers, the neighborhood associations but implicated Mayor Richard J. Daley in urban renewal plans that clearly were racist, being utilized to cleanse these areas of lower income minorities. Because of this, María Romero volunteered to serve as Young Lords Office Coordinator. It was Ms. Romero’s job to pass out assignments and to provide support and referrals for services for residents of that Lakeview area of Wilton and Grace. She herself had lived in Lincoln Park but had grown up in Lakeview. There most of the Puerto Ricans knew her family, as her father was a businessman, who for years had owned several Latino botanicas, or stores that sell religious potions and candles of saints, and provide consultation services. Ms. Romero was instrumental in getting a large amount of persons registered to vote. The Jiménez Aldermanic Campaign received 39% of the vote on the first attempt. It was not the 51% needed, but it was still victorious in uniting the community and beginning to expose the prejudice behind displacement. It also opened wide the doors for future Latino political candidates. As Ms. Romero moved west to Humboldt Park she was hired as a community organizer for Bickerdike, a non - profit development corporation. She used her Young Lords organizing skills and passion to promote their mission of being, deeply dedicated to preserving the ethnic and cultural character of their neighborhoods, providing quality affordable housing, preserving jobs, advocating for resources and struggling against gentrification and displacement. One of the main issues that Ms. Romero advocated for was the “Chicago Affordable Set Aside.” Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cefbedaec8c20f4a1634c00d44aab4fa.pdf 8d236e146bb661f3492d87eb64aabbc9 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carmelo Romero Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/23/2012 Biography and Description Carmelo Romero grew up in Lakeview and today lives in Logan Square. His family also lived in the Lincoln Park neighborhood and knew of the Young Lords. But it was not until the Young Lords set up their neighborhood storefront office that Mr. Romero took notice of them. He holds a Master Degree and appreciates the contributions to civil and human rights of Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcom X, and loves to study African history, especially the Moors who took over Spain for 800 years and influenced Latino nations in many ways. Mr. Romero explains how the Moors even contributed to jibaro music in their sounds and song chants. Maria Romero, his sister, remains a full-fledged member of the Young Lords in her heart. In the 1970s she ran the office at Wilton and Grace Streets. Mr. Romero would often stop by and, as the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign took hold, he volunteered to help. But he was more involved with school then. Today, Mr. Romero is a promising writer and has published several short stories. He also works for a housing development organization that is providing affordable housing in Logan Square. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, Carmelo, if you can give me -- and we’re rolling now. There’s no trick questions or nothing. Just relax. It’s not a (inaudible). But if you can give me your full name and your date of birth and where you were born. CARMELO ROMERO: Okay. Full name, Carmelo Romero. I was born in Río Piedras, Puerto Rico, and I was born March 5, 1954. JJ: Okay, Río Piedras. And your parents, who were they? CR: Well, Ana Maria Santiago Coto and Cayetamo Romero. JJ: Cayetamo Romero. Okay, what about your brothers and sisters? CR: Brothers, George, Julie -- I think her full name is Julietta -- and Yolanda [00:01:00] and Maria, Cruz Maria. JJ: Okay. And what type of work did your parents do? CR: Well, my mom basically took care of us and nannied children, you know? And my father worked at Northwestern Hospital in the maintenance department, and then he also had his own business. He was a trained masseuse. JJ: He was a trained masseuse? CR: Yeah, and he also through reading and everything like that trained himself in Eastern arts of healing. So he had often two or three botánicas. JJ: Okay. Oh, botánicas, huh? CR: Right. He also was, like many people are just natural herbalists. My sister Maria is like that. And that’s what he was, so [00:02:00] he knew plants by the feel. He knew what could heal and what could hurt and all that. So he was able to put 1 �things together like that and treat people, help people. Basically, you know what’s incredible about it is that I could put a store like that over on Damen and North Avenue, and man, I’m making money because it’s like everybody that comes in there, they have the money to spend (laughs) on these types of selfcures. JJ: And they’re into that, I mean. CR: Oh, yeah, that’s become -- JJ: -- part of the culture. CR: Yeah. Yeah, and that’s something that, again, reaches back to -- JJ: Actually, my mother’s into that. I mean, she didn’t have a botánica, but she’s into spiritualism. CR: Yeah, and so many people -- JJ: And (inaudible) a little bit. She says she [00:03:00] doesn’t, but she (inaudible). CR: Well, some of it is natural. JJ: But he had businesses. He had a couple businesses. CR: Yeah. And his whole thing was, you know, he was very politically aware and everything like that. JJ: What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? CR: Well, he was a very proud -- JJ: I mean, was he Republican, Democrat? CR: Oh, no, definitely Democrat. He’s as far left of a Democrat as you could make. JJ: Oh, he was far-left? 2 �CR: Yeah. You know, that was his whole reasoning and everything like that. The weird thing about it is that he would make a great occupier. JJ: Okay, you mean the occupy movement? CR: Yeah, that would be his -- JJ: Well, did he talk to you about that? CR: He talked about it. He wouldn’t [00:04:00] talk to us about it, but he would just -like, guys would come into the store and he’d discuss things with them and I had big ears. I would hear all this stuff, and Maria too. Even as young kids, we realized there’s just something out there that deals with this politics stuff that controls things, you know? He was very much aware of all of that. He was very much aware of how the game is played and all that. JJ: The game’s played, what do you mean? CR: Well, you know, a politician comes to you and he says, “You’re a store owner, all right? I want you to do this, I want you to do that. Can you put this --” “What are you going to do for me?” You know, and the politician would say [00:05:00] this and that. But at that time, all these store owners would also say, “Well, you know, I’ve got this friend here and I’ve got this friend there, and I’ve got a cousin here, and they all need help too.” Which I think is missing in people today, that it’s what’s the largest amount -- and I don’t blame people for this -- what’s the largest amount you can offer me? And there’s no mention of the other people, you know, no mention of the cousin, the familia there, and all that. It’s just, “What can you do for me?” And then it goes on from there. That’s one thing that’s missing from us, that we don’t think like that anymore, you know? It’s like 3 �[00:06:00] at that time, people were still coming over, all right, and we knew people that were still coming over. JJ: Were still coming over from Puerto Rico? CR: Yeah. Right now, nobody knows anybody that’s coming over. They just know people that go back and forth. Everybody’s just entrenched here. There’s another difference. It’s like I said, everybody’s just entrenched here, but they’re not a part of the culture, you know? I spent a few months in New York, and God, I love that city. Everything, every ethnic group in New York is entrenched in New York. It’s like you will never see [00:07:00] a Polish guy drive by and say, “Oh, yeah, Mami,” all right? But you would see that in New York because Puerto Rican culture is a deep part of New York. All these fascinating things in New York -- it was just like part of the thing, you know? It’s like salsa dancing was (inaudible) yeah, all right, we do that at the bar. What’s the big deal, you know? But then here, that just wasn’t the case. It was like we’re just so separate from all of that. Then as I studied further, I came to the realization that’s all Chicago, all right? Yeah, I dated an Italian girl who lived on Taylor Street, and you would swear -- JJ: She lived on Taylor or you lived on Taylor? CR: She lived on Taylor. I lived [00:08:00] around, you know, Wilton and Grace, there around Sheffield, I think it was, or Fremont, one of those two streets. And it was like that area, which I used to call Little Italy, that’s where it was, you know? Then I had friends who lived in Bridgeport, and that’s where that was. It’s like nobody in this city -- and I couldn’t understand it because it’s hell getting around 4 �in New York. But here, it was so easy back then. You could get anywhere you wanted to all the way from where the Baháʼí Temple is, from Wilmette all the way down to Blue Island, and damn close to Gary in this city. It doesn’t take more than 45 minutes. [00:09:00] I used to do that, get on that train and do that, and though my feelings were deeply Pan-African, I still love -JJ: What is that? What is Pan-African? CR: That so many people of color in North America who are here now, particularly people in the islands and here, have root ties to Africa because of the slavery. But then later on, I learned we also have deep root ties to the Mediterranean, you know? That was the coolest thing when I went. I was working for this photo agency like around 1989 and they sent me to Europe, and particularly the Mediterranean. I was doing fashion photography there and I was going from -- I lived a quarter of the year in Barcelona, [00:10:00] a quarter of the year in SaintAntoine in France, and then I spent time in Turkey and Morocco, and damn, the Mediterranean is like -- and then I come back here and I’m like, we’re so much closer to each other. Why can’t we have that here, you know? As I say, it’s not always gonna be harmonious, of course. You have conflict within families. Just go to a Puerto Rican or an Italian wedding. They all end the same, all right? Puerto Rican and Italian weddings, the girls outside pulling their hairs out and guys just drinking beer, watching them. JJ: Fights, you mean? CR: Hmm? JJ: You mean like fights? 5 �CR: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t know what it is that weddings bring out in all of us, but [00:11:00] that’s like a connection. I would say to people, “Well, yeah, that’s that connection. That’s because the historical blood line connection from the island Puerto Rico to the Mediterranean,” you know? JJ: So you’re saying there’s some historic line there? CR: Oh, yeah, it’s a historic genetic line, especially from Puerto Rico to Spain, France, and Morocco, all right? There’s folk music from Morocco that you would swear, if you heard it, jibaros in Puerto Rico would be singing. But that’s the connection because, see, the Spanish and the Portuguese were unlike the Northern Europeans. They brought everybody over. JJ: I know that Spain, [00:12:00] Arab countries who ruled Spain for 800 years. So you’re saying in Morocco, they do jibaro music? CR: Yeah. It’s got the same -- well, they have a different type of stringed instrument, but it’s like the same way. A little bongos, someone playing the stringed instrument, and this chanting back and forth, and with a constant “Lo-le-lo-li.” JJ: Lo-le-lo-li? CR: Right. Then later on, you hear that in Spanish flamenco. What’s called French Apache dance, you can hear that in there too. JJ: Now, you said you got into the Pan-Africanism. What got you into that? CR: I used to read a lot and read weird stuff, right? And I found this guy [00:13:00] named Frantz Fanon. I read his two books. JJ: Actually, the Young Lords met Frantz Fanon. 6 �CR: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, that’s where I got -- there was a poet who worked with the Young Lords, Felipe Luciano. JJ: Oh, that’s right, yeah. CR: I met him at this party somewhere and he mentioned Frantz Fanon. JJ: In New York? He’s from New York. CR: Right. But he was here in Chicago. JJ: Okay, at that time. CR: It was somewhere in Hyde Park, something like that. It’s probably on the University of Chicago campus. So he mentioned that, so I dug them out and read them. Well, it was a weird concept to me because like everybody else at that time, I just thought about this country, the United States. [00:14:00] Yeah, I know they brought slaves over. But then his thought process was that there’s an African diaspora out there, you know? And the thing about it is that later on, like practically everything in the world, it became corrupted for political purposes. But the idea behind it, that you don’t have to go out of your way to be African or anything like that, but just enjoy that it’s there. Then later on when I got a chance to go to Spain and the Mediterranean, I realized that it’s everywhere, you know, because it sprung from the Moors culture, mixing in [00:15:00] with the Roman culture. JJ: That’s what I was thinking of, the Moors. They were in Spain for 800 years. Now, the Moors, I don’t understand, are they Morocco? CR: Yeah, they came out of Morocco. Morocco was their center of operations. They came out of Morocco and their whole thing was to spread Islam, you know, 7 �throughout Eastern Europe. Well, they got as far as the British Isles and really dominated for a long time. JJ: I really like jibaro music. I mean, my family played that and all that. So you mentioned that and I (inaudible). So we might’ve gotten it from the Moors, then. CR: Oh, but, see, everything over here, we got from somewhere else because even [00:16:00] what they call the Native Americans, well, there was once a land bridge on the Siberian Strait and they came, basically immigrated from that part of Siberia to here. So everything here came from the Old World, and then, you know, there was also the theory of supercontinent where all the continents at one time were one. Of course, that stuff splashes all over the place. JJ: Now, that, I had heard of that in some college class that I took. So where did you go to school? CR: I started out at Malcolm X College. JJ: In grammar school. CR: Oh, grammar school, wow. The ones I can remember were King School when I was a little kid, McLaren School later. JJ: On the North Side by Lakeview? CR: No, these were on the West Side. JJ: [00:17:00] West Side where? CR: In the area which is pretty much now the medical center, the University of Illinois Medical Center. JJ: Oh, okay. Around Van Buren? CR: Yeah, we lived on Van Buren. 8 �JJ: We used to call that La Madison. CR: Right. JJ: Do you remember that? CR: Yeah, I remember that. I remember them calling it -- now, Sundays right now, I have a booth over at Maxwell Street Market. You know, we sell stuff. But I remember back then, Maxwell Street being [La Halsted?]. You would go to Terry’s and go through there. I remember -- this is the greatest memory, because I needed a suit for my eighth grade graduation -- my mom taking me to this place called Morry’s. JJ: Right, yeah, I went there. CR: Yeah, and she’s just the [bickering?] [00:18:00] and went back and forth between her and the guy. He’s like, “Lady, I’ve gotta have lunch. I haven’t had lunch and (inaudible).” And finally I’m getting the suit. The smell of the fabric, you know? It was so cool. Then you go out and then from there, we went straight over to the Polish places, you know, and got a Polish -- the weird thing about that is, like I said, I’m working on Maxwell Street now, and the morning job that I have, we service basically those restaurants, Maxwell Street restaurants and stuff like that. JJ: So Maxwell Street, can you describe what it was, I mean, at that time? CR: Well, back at that time, it was like this whole market of all kinds of stuff. Whatever you [00:19:00] wanted, you could find at Maxwell Street. In addition to that, you had musicians, you had artists, you had entertainment. Sometimes some guy would get caught trying to steal from somebody and all the vendors in 9 �that area would just beat the crap out of him. They don’t call the police or anything like that. It’s just get him out. Get out. Don’t come back. JJ: It was like an open market? CR: Oh, yeah, yeah, open. You had guys selling fruits. JJ: You can barter. CR: That was the whole thing. It’s like people bartering back and forth. What sticks in my mind about that, again, the center relationship, it’s like when I was in Morocco, I saw markets like that. That was the whole thing is bartering. This guy was explaining it to me, “Well, no price here is set.” JJ: [00:20:00] You negotiate, whatever. CR: Right, so you have to know how to negotiate, barter, but you have to be entertaining. You can’t be rude or the seller will just cut you off. If you’re rude, cuts you off. JJ: But a lot of Puerto Rican families used to go there? CR: Puerto Rican, Mexican, Black. Most vendors were Jewish. JJ: You’re talking about Pan-Africanism. Did you feel Puerto Rican or African? Or maybe I’m saying that in a wrong -- CR: No, no, no, you’re saying it pretty much the right way. I felt that nationalities didn’t count. Back during that time, I didn’t call myself Puerto Rican. I didn’t call myself American. What counted was what you, the individual, were made of. I looked at myself as someone who is deeply African with [00:21:00] sprinkles of Spain and France in there because whenever I would see that -- I just knew that was in there, you know? But I didn’t know exactly how it was in there until I went 10 �there. So back then, anyone would tell you, who knew me back then, I’d just never call myself Puerto Rican. I also never called myself American, despite the fact that when I was in high school, I was in ROTC. But most guys, that’s so you don’t have to swim naked in gym. That’s the reason why guys get into ROTC. Well, back in those days. JJ: What high school was that? CR: Waller. Robert A. Waller. Now it’s Lincoln -- JJ: You went to Waller High School? [I went there?]. CR: Whom? JJ: So how did you go to Waller High School? You were living up north. CR: We moved out here. When we moved -- JJ: You [00:22:00] lived on Van Buren. CR: Right. Then from Van Buren, we moved to (inaudible). Back then? To me, it was cool. JJ: Okay, what do you mean? CR: I just mean I was in contact with Black kids, white kids, or what every other Puerto Rican called [los hilbilos?]. JJ: [Los hilbilos?]? CR: Yeah, there were a lot of kids, a lot of families in that area -- JJ: Hillbillies? Los hilbilos, los hilbilos. CR: Yeah, right. But Southern -- JJ: (inaudible). CR: Yeah, a lot of Southern immigrants there -- 11 �JJ: At Van Buren (inaudible). CR: Yeah, and there were Puerto Ricans, there were Mexicans, there were Blacks. So my feeling was, you know, this is kind of cool. Everybody seemed to get along, so as I grew older, [00:23:00] I was always fascinated by the news and stuff like that on television. JJ: So now you’ve moved from Van Buren. You guys move into the Lincoln Park neighborhood. CR: Not yet. We moved, but still on the West Side. The weirdest place, all right? I can’t even tell you where it was. All I can remember of it is, like, overgrowth. That’s all I could ever see was overgrowth. It was dank and dark. JJ: What do you mean, overgrowth? Grass? CR: Grass, plants. An incredible amount of grasshoppers and crickets, just like they were everywhere. You could smell that tobacco. That was our backyard. I could tell that my mother absolutely hated it, you know, and we were there, like, two months, and she never unpacked [00:24:00] and we were gone from there. Then we ended up in the Lakeview area. JJ: In Lincoln Park. CR: Right, right, Lincoln Park. JJ: Because it had Waller and all that. CR: Right. We were on Halsted and Orchard. JJ: Okay, they run the same, so you mean -- 12 �CR: No, no, Halsted -- actually, Armitage, because I would go -- yeah, Armitage was the street where Waller was on, Orchard and Armitage. Right. So we were on Fremont and Armitage, and between Armitage and -- you know, that area now. JJ: And Wisconsin, yeah. CR: Yeah. No, and North Avenue. JJ: And North Avenue, okay. But then (inaudible). CR: Dickens -- no, not Dickens, but another English author street. Willow. Willow and then North Avenue, okay. And that area back [00:25:00] then was -- JJ: So you moved a couple places in there? CR: No, no, no, we were always on Fremont. JJ: Fremont between Willow and North Avenue? CR: Right. JJ: I got you. CR: No, between Willow and Armitage. JJ: Okay, all right. And what year was that? Because I lived on Fremont. CR: Around ’69. Yeah, around ’69 because it was the year that the Cubs were doing good. JJ: Okay. In ’69, we had the church, the Young Lords church there. You didn’t notice that? CR: No, so that must’ve been -- JJ: Sixty-eight. It must’ve been ’68. CR: Sixty-eight or ’67, yeah. So, you know, we moved around there. You know what? It was around the time of Martin Luther King’s assassination. 13 �JJ: That was ’68. CR: Right, so that’s when it was, because that’s what I remember most about that is that [00:26:00] when we moved there, there was still that mixture that I enjoyed. But then King was assassinated and it just all blew up, you know? It all went to hell. Nobody wanted to associate. And Waller, the weird thing about Waller is that it encompassed -- the Cabrini-Green, but also the Gold Coast where you had bastards that’re just too cheap to send kids to Parker or Latin. They said, “Oh, well, let them go to Waller. It’s free.” So there were a bunch of rich kids there who detested their parents, rich white kids who detested their parents and associated with us. My particular group there was, like, we all wanted [00:27:00] to be artists in one way or another. I wanted to be a writer and a trumpet player, and there was another. There was two other guys that did get to -- man, they actually did get their dreams because they worked with Spike Lee. JJ: [Who were these?]. CR: Yeah, Rob and Gus. JJ: Rob and Gus. Friends of yours? CR: Yeah. And they got to work -- well, hell, they’re in Amsterdam now, you know, just sitting back. JJ: You don’t remember their last names or anything? CR: Rob was Smith and Gus was Stone. JJ: Okay. And these are close friends of yours? CR: Well, they were. JJ: Yeah, but they made it. 14 �CR: Well, they made it, yeah. They made it the way we all said -- because we all wanted to be basically -- you know what’s weird? Because that was, what, 1968. But if you were a person who loved classical music [00:28:00] and jazz, for some reason, there was a gas link to the late ’50s. Real cool jazz, real jazz, inventive jazz was, like, it. You actually heard it on the radio. And it’s all artists, whether you were painters, actors, whatever, gravitated towards that because the improvisation and everything like that. That, Pablo Picasso paintings, you know, Chagall, and all that. You gravitate towards that because of the improvisation. This is creative. This is what I wanna do is create, you know? And before King’s assassination. You really had [00:29:00] that. Then after the assassination, it’s like everybody splintered off, even the Blacks. JJ: There were riots at Waller. I remember those. CR: You’ll have to tell me that. I was standing there watching. I was like, well, I’ve gotta help me. But then that’s what bugged me the most, was there was this one Puerto Rican girl who was, like, the sweetest girl in the world and everybody got along with her. Then there was this Black kid who’s the same way, and on the day of the riots -- I remember them all -- they were good friends, and they’re walking up. He’s walking her home and a bunch of Black kids attack them. [00:30:00] And what I remember about that is -- JJ: Why did they attack them? CR: Because everybody was running around rioting. It was after King had been assassinated. I remember our teacher standing us by the window. Are you parked all right out there? 15 �JJ: Yeah, I’m parked. CR: Okay. They’re saying that the school was closed and all that, and I remember going down and standing around and looking around. I remember a bunch of Black kids pushing a bunch of Latin Kings, chasing down these white kids, and beating the crap out of them. I was wondering, what does this mean? I understand people are mad that this man was dead. I had already started studying politics [00:31:00] back then, so I pretty much knew about that. But, you know, why is this necessary? And it just blew my mind. It sort of led me to wanna find out, all right, these people, why don’t we act like that? I’ve gotta find out about myself, all right? And in trying to find out myself -- JJ: (inaudible) Martin Luther King’s death, you wanted to find out about yourself. CR: Yeah, you know, because it seemed important back then to know where you stand. I didn’t understand. What the hell are you talking about? Is this a cowboy movie? You know, because I used to watch a lot of the old -- well, I still do. All my DVDs are old movies. JJ: Oh, cowboy movies? CR: All old movies. Anything made before [00:32:00] the ’50s was just outstanding. Anything made during the ’50s is really cool, you know, because it’s so camp and dumb. Then you had the ’60s where nothing really happened. Then later on in the ’70s, you had the slasher films appearing, and that’s really cool because there are artistic films where the director and writers are actually trying to say something and there’s just films that go straight to DVD. Trying to figure out which is which is pretty cool. 16 �JJ: Now, you were in Waller. How many years did you go there? CR: Well, I went there five years, all right? I failed one year, but I did it on purpose because there was a girl there [00:33:00] that I was going with that wouldn’t graduate until after I did. So I figured, well, you know -- this is the way my mind works -- I figured, well, when I was in grade school, I went from fifth to seventh grade, so I owe them a year. What the hell? Actually hell is not the word. So I said, I love this girl. I wanna be around her and everything. So, yeah, I’ll just blow a year of high school. JJ: So you went from what year to what year? CR: Now, see, that’s all confused. About ’69 to ’72. JJ: Oh, ’69 to ’72, you went? CR: Yeah, about somewhere around there. JJ: Okay, ’69 to ’72. So you didn’t become familiar with the Young Lords then. CR: Actually, well, yeah, I had heard about everything because I was a student [00:34:00] of politics. I was studying personally. At Waller, this was the thing at Waller. I would present that to my teachers and I had a couple of teachers -- for some reason, the history teachers there were just very, very conservative. “This is garbage.” Then I would present it to my English teachers, the literature teachers, the music teachers, and they said, “Wow, this is cool.” Not exactly that, but you know. I would say, “Okay, I don’t know what’s going on here, but I don’t care.” (laughs) So I hung around for that last year, and then didn’t turn out so good because her father ended up -- well, her mother died, [00:35:00] and then her father turned her into his wife. She ended up committing suicide. 17 �JJ: (inaudible). CR: Yeah. So it was like, wow. I mean, I didn’t think about losing the year. I just thought about, this is nuts. This shouldn’t be happening. This is something I should be writing, not something that should -- JJ: Was this a Puerto Rican girl or no? CR: No, she was Black. JJ: She was Black, okay. CR: Yeah, they lived in Cabrini-Green, and her father was like this storefront minister, you know. I didn’t know the weirdness that was going on there. But, see, that’s the way it is. In a way, that’s why I can’t stand these reality shows, you know? Because all the weirdness is there, [00:36:00] all right? That makes it harder for writers because what the hell? How can we go beyond this? We can’t astonish people anymore. Everything is just out there. But back in those days, all these secrets that were running around -- as a matter of fact, that’s part of a novel that I wrote about a private detective working around that period and the things he -well, you know, that’s basically what a lot of private detective fiction is. You start here and then it gets dirtier and dirtier and dirtier and wealthier and wealthier and wealthier. JJ: Now, you said you’ve had some things published already, right? CR: Yeah, short stories, poems in weird, defunct [00:37:00] magazines. I tend to follow the line of pulp writers, although I consider them the greatest writers ever. JJ: Consider them what? CR: Excuse me? 18 �JJ: The greatest writer what? CR: Ever. I mean, that period of fiction that started with Dickens and then Conan Doyle. And around that same period, even though it didn’t deal with crime, you had Dostoevsky, the Russian writers. There’s just fiction that came out of that that’s here forever because the feelings are there forever. Then as you got into the ’30s, pulp writers were writing these detective stories. Dashiell Hammett. See, that was my thing. [00:38:00] I always wanted to be a combination of Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler and Ernest Hemingway. Their writing, you know, it brought you into these worlds. I think that’s very difficult to do now because those worlds are for you to see on cable and even on regular television now. JJ: So what was Waller like, though, I mean, during the time you were there? CR: See, that was weird because, again, before the riots, it seemed like everybody, despite whether you liked each other or not, you got along, all right? Then after the riots, everybody was just mean except for, like, kids who had their little groups and cliques, which we were considered [00:39:00] the uncool, the dorks. But nobody messed with us because we learned [harmony?]. JJ: Uncool, the dorks, because you didn’t belong to a group? CR: Because we weren’t hating each other. It’s like all of these two or three little groups, you had the Puerto Rican kid. With our group, I was the Puerto Rican. Then there were three Black guys. Then there was a Japanese kid and there was a Puerto Rican girl, then I always dated someone Black. We were all interested in art and jazz, so we would end up in places we weren’t supposed to 19 �be while all the other kids [00:40:00] were at sock hops and things like that, you know? Then there was other kids who were in the chess club and things. JJ: Sock hops? You mean -- CR: Dances, stuff like that. JJ: So a lot of dances going on in the neighborhood? CR: Oh, yeah, when I was in ROTC, we ushered for this group that became real, real popular called -- and now I forgot their name. But I remember that they were real, real popular, and we ushered for them at a show. They had all kinds of stuff going on around there. JJ: What about the neighborhood at that time, ’69, ’70? What type of population? CR: Again, it was everything depending on -- every block seemed to change. You would have a block that seemed to be mostly Puerto Rican. Then you would come across a block that was mostly Mexican. [00:41:00] Then there would be really right across the street, the building across the street would have a bunch of white folks in it. Then you would have a business, and whoever the kid was, the business -- there was this -- I think it’s still there on Armitage and Sheffield -there was this cleaners. There was this Japanese kid whose family owned the cleaner. He was the coolest kid in the world. He hung out and everything like that, you know. That’s what you had from block to block to block. Then you would get to North Avenue and then the projects would start, and it was weird because the projects, the white buildings that were on Halsted and North Avenue -- or, no, Halsted and Division [00:42:00] were mostly Puerto Rican. Then you had some whites -- 20 �JJ: You’re talking about the Cabrini-Green. CR: Right. JJ: The white projects there. CR: Right. Then you had some whites there too and it was predominantly -- JJ: Did you know people from there? CR: Oh, yeah, my best friends were from there. My girlfriend was there. JJ: In the white projects? CR: No, no, no, no, at the red projects on Cleveland where they used to -- the beginning of Good Times? JJ: Right. CR: Yeah, right. They would show those, and that’s where most of my friends were. Like I said, we really wanted to be bohemians, you know? I mean, kids would look at us because we’d come to school with black turtlenecks and black berets, and the girls would be wearing the black leotards and black leather skirts with flat [00:43:00] shoes. The kids then would look at us the way they look at the goth kids, you know. It was the same reaction. But there was no violent anything until after the riots. Then after the riots, for a couple of years, it was like nobody wanted to like each other. We hated that because we wanted to like everybody. It was like wherever we went, if we went back home, there were gangs around. They would, you know, they says, “Nah, you’ve gotta represent something. It’s either us or them.” So all of us, especially in Cabrini-Green, because there were like three gangs around there, recruiting -- what they used to call recruiting, you know? And it was weird. [00:44:00] I sort of thought about this last year when I 21 �was watching a film on King, that it’s so weird that so many things just ended after he was assassinated. They haven’t come back yet. I mean, this whole thing that’s going on now, the current election, that’s all about what was going on back then. It’s all hatred. They’re just people in this country, can’t stand to have a Black president, want people of Hispanic descent -- despite the fact we’ve been here longer than them, if you count the fact that Spain was here 600 years ago -they want us out and want to destroy whatever women have gained. I don’t understand [00:45:00] that. It drives me nuts because it’s the same crap I used to hear back then. How could we have not evolved in anything but sports? Back then, I loved soccer and I would never admit I was in the United States because we had a crappy soccer team. Now we’ve got one of the best teams in the world. How come everything else hasn’t evolved like that? Why do we have people running around this country, wanting to turn it into a Christian Iran, you know? And nothing against -- I love Persian people. My girlfriend is Persian. But I’m talking about the theocracy and the government that just takes the life out of people. Why do people in this country wanna do that to this country? I don’t understand it. It drives me nuts. [00:46:00] And more than that, it’s the same crap that was happening then. Why haven’t we advanced? See? This is the potential for a wonderful, beautiful country, you know? Europeans wanna copy it in the Euro zone. They’ll never do it because you’ll never get the Greeks and Italians to agree on anything. I’ve been there, I know. But here, we’re just right here right next to each other. It’s like we could sit down and watch football, but we can’t communicate over our kid’s school. Doesn’t make any sense to me. 22 �JJ: Did you go to college? CR: Yeah, I went to Malcolm X College, and then University of Illinois in [00:47:00] Chicago, which is now Circle Campus. JJ: So Malcolm X College, you went to the first two years? CR: Right. JJ: Then you transferred to the University of Illinois Circle Campus? CR: Right. JJ: And you graduated? CR: Well, not technically. I haven’t paid my bills. JJ: You haven’t paid your bills? CR: Yeah, so I don’t have a degree. But eventually I’ll take care of that. JJ: Only when you pay your bills? CR: Well, no, it’s like, I mean, if somebody clicks in on it, you also get that tag that there’s a problem with it or not accredited. It’s like you’ve got the degree but it hasn’t been accredited. That’s the problem that a lot of college -- well, not all college. JJ: Is that you or is that all the students? CR: Naw, that’s been around forever. JJ: So you pay your bill or you don’t get your -- CR: You’ve got your degree, but if someone called us up, they’d say, “Wow, it’s not accredited. [00:48:00] It was this problem. It was that.” I don’t think that happens anymore because now -- JJ: But you have your diploma, right? 23 �CR: Yeah. JJ: So you can prove that you graduated. CR: Yeah, but, you know, nowadays with online and everything like that, everybody double checks everything. JJ: Okay, and when they double check, they say it’s not accredited? CR: Right. JJ: Okay, so it works. CR: Right, because I still haven’t paid that old bill. But it doesn’t really matter, you know, because the degrees -- see, I made the mistake of getting the degrees in things that eventually just were all right, like in culture. My BA was in what was called communications. That was journalism and all that. It was basically journalism. But [00:49:00] now, a degree in journalism -- JJ: So you have a BA in journalism. CR: Right. JJ: Okay. CR: Then later on, it was in cultural education. JJ: Oh, you have two degrees. CR: Yeah, a BA and a masters, and my masters was in cultural education. Then it just got -- you know, who cares about that? We all know about culture. Even then, though, I don’t know why I wanted degrees in that. Oh, I know why, because they all got me involved with the jazz programs at the school. That’s what I was after. Like I said, my whole thing was to either become a jazz musician or one of those three writers because my mind was just like all in the 24 �’30s, ’40s, ’50s film noir. They call it film noir, [00:50:00] the private detective, the black and white, the fedoras, and all that. Even though it’s contemporary, that’s what most of my writing goes back to. They called it the hardboiled school of writing. And I was fascinated by that. But, see, what I also wanted to do -- and I was able to do this -- I wrote this story and it was published -- damn. I don’t remember where it was published. I believe it was Playboy or whatever. And if you remember, during that time, there was a lot of gang fighting, and there was particularly a big rivalry between the Latin Eagles and the Harrison Gents, all right? So I wrote a story in the ’30s style of writing where there was [00:51:00] the Harrison Gents did something to -- it was very West Side Story. They did something. He raped one of the sisters of one of the Eagles, and then the Eagles just rained down violence and vengeance on them all. My purpose of the story was to show how stupid all of this was, all right? For once in my lifetime, I became a folk hero in that neighborhood because somebody got a hold of this story and they looked at it from the point that, man, we killed off so-and-so. JJ: Wait, I think a family was killed. CR: Yeah, that was back then. JJ: Because I was incarcerated when one of the Harrison Gents -- and then the Eagles were my cousins. So I knew both sides. It was bad because he told me it was his family. They got burnt. [00:52:00] They burned that down. You wrote about it. You wrote about it. CR: Right. But, see -- JJ: Small worlds. 25 �CR: The weird thing about it, again, is, well, you know -- I can’t remember the magazine it was published in, but my whole perception was these folks can’t read. It’ll never end up with them. And somehow, someone showed it to them, and I became a folk hero, you know? They loved the story. I was afraid I was gonna get my ass kicked, but they loved the story and everything. Then I felt cool because, see, that’s what a writer wants to do. One way or the other -- who was it? The writer of one of those gothic novels. Jane Eyre. Whoever wrote Jane Eyre said that you [00:53:00] know what a writer wants to do is for you -maybe she didn’t say this -- but anyway, for the reader to embrace them or give them a good boot in the [beer?]. Either way, you want a reaction. That’s when I felt, wow, I had done that. JJ: Let me ask you, because your writing, you also lived on Wilton and Grace. CR: Right. JJ: Right. Was it right after you graduated that you moved up there? CR: It was just before graduation. JJ: That you moved the family? CR: Yeah, that the family moved around there. JJ: (inaudible) by Sheffield near Grace. CR: Right. JJ: So a lot of families [followed Sheffield up?] from Halsted. CR: Yeah, we went west. You know, go west. That’s what [00:54:00] ended up happening to us. JJ: Was there a reason why you moved? 26 �CR: Yeah, because, you know, rent. That’s always the reason why us or anyone else moved was rent. JJ: What do you mean, the rent? CR: The rent got too high, so you moved to an area where the rent wasn’t as high. JJ: Okay. You mean the neighborhood was changing? The rent was getting high? CR: Yeah, I guess so. JJ: You guess so. But you know that the rent was high. CR: Yeah. Well, I knew when we got ready to move, it was because the rent was too high, you know? JJ: You raise that rent, we’re moving. CR: Right, that was it. JJ: [From here to you?] (inaudible). CR: Right. That’s why we moved where we moved. JJ: So you moved by Wrigley Field, by that neighborhood, the Lakeview neighborhood, from Lincoln Park to Lakeview. CR: No, that is the Lakeview was called the Lakeview. JJ: [00:55:00] It goes up to -- CR: See, I always thought of it as New Town. JJ: New Town is -- CR: The gay part of the North Side. JJ: Yeah, it’s connected to Lakeview. CR: Yeah, because I used to live on Wellington. I had an apartment on Wellington and Broadway. 27 �JJ: Oh, Wellington and Broadway is New Town. CR: Yeah, right. JJ: You didn’t move in with your parents? CR: No, that was after I was out of college. First I was married, and we were married about nine years. Then after we broke up, I moved back to that area, and I had a place around there. JJ: In New Town near Broadway and Clark, in those areas? CR: Yeah, around there. JJ: Then [00:56:00] Lakeview is north of Diversey. CR: Okay. And I guess west of Clark Street. JJ: Yeah. CR: Yeah. Okay, I get that now. Now, see, at that time, there was no Wrigleyville, though. JJ: Right. They didn’t call it Wrigleyville? CR: Yeah. Well, you know that area that’s around the ballpark is basically Wrigleyville. JJ: So you lived right by the [ball park?]. CR: Mm-hmm. JJ: You moved, what, around 1972 or something? CR: Yeah, ’72, because my last year. It was my last year in high school. JJ: So by ’72, Lincoln Park was (inaudible). CR: Oh, no. Yeah, by ’72, Lincoln Park was gone. JJ: It was gone. There were no more Puerto Rican families, poor families. 28 �CR: No. [00:57:00] There are two families living on Orchard, between Armitage. You know, there’s this little hot dog stand right across the street from [one of them?]. JJ: Right now? CR: Right. And right there on Armitage, between Armitage and the next street over -which it’s Willow or whatever it is -- there are two Puerto Rican families who own the buildings who still live there. JJ: Recently you’ve seen? CR: They’re there. I don’t know them personally, but I just know that they’re Puerto Rican. JJ: I mean, how do you know they’re there? CR: Because I see them. JJ: When you go there? CR: I run seven miles in the morning, you know. That’s my workout. Well, yoga first, and then I run seven miles. [00:58:00] Once a week, I run down Armitage, and the grandmothers -- JJ: Is there a reason why you picked Armitage? CR: Habit. Yeah, you know, it’s just a habit, just going over the bridge and then going down towards Armitage, under that underpass where that big factory is. You know, it’s just something about it that’s just -- it’s like an odyssey. I also think, like, for me it’s personal. It’s the only familiar thing that I know. So I do it once a week. JJ: Okay, all the way from [here?], pretty far west. 29 �CR: Yeah, but if you’ve been running all your life, if you’ve gotta run all your life, that doesn’t mean anything. JJ: [00:59:00] Okay. CR: Yeah, you can do it in an hour. JJ: Okay. CR: So it’s like nothing. Well, maybe in the winter. JJ: It might take me three days. CR: Maybe in the winter, a little longer. JJ: Yeah, for me, it might take me three days (inaudible). (laughter) CR: Well, you know, some people aren’t made to. JJ: Okay, so now you’re on Wilton and Grace, and this is ’72. CR: Yeah, around that time. JJ: And what type of neighborhood is it now? CR: See, here’s where the problem comes with me. I didn’t spend a lot of time in the neighborhood. I was off trying to (inaudible). I was going to college and also our main hangout was jazz clubs on Clark Street and thereabout, the Happy Medium and all that. They don’t exist anymore. The only one [01:00:00] left I think is the Jazz Showcase, and he moves from one place to another. You know, but there was the Sardine Club and all of that, and for some reason, I looked old enough for them not to bother me to come in. I was a photographer. I was doing photo [arts?] and all that. So it was like I was so involved in everything, and I was involved in soccer. I love soccer. I just wasn’t around the neighborhood that 30 �much. The most time I spent around the neighborhood, it was like I got involved with the art group [El Taller?]. JJ: Oh, [El Taller?]. With (inaudible). CR: Yeah, (inaudible). We would have meetings a couple of times. But then even -- JJ: Did you draw? CR: No, no, no, no, I was a photographer, photographer and a poet. JJ: Okay, that’s right. CR: [01:01:00] We would have meetings. That was cool. But then I would go home and then I wouldn’t spend that much time. The most time I spent in that neighborhood was when my sister got me involved with your campaign. JJ: The alderman campaign? CR: Right. But you know what? It was kind of pleasant because you did have -again, what I like, people of all kinds all over the place. It started to change after we left. JJ: In what way? CR: Well, now it’s just strictly a yuppie area. JJ: Okay. So all the families moved out? CR: Yeah, there’s basically no families. JJ: But for a little period, what? CR: Yeah, there were families. There were people all over. The coolest thing that I used to love to do is go take pictures of people [01:02:00] in the summer in the swimming pool because that was at Arnold Park, right? They had the swimming 31 �pool there, and everyone from the neighborhood would be there. I took some really great pictures. JJ: Of Arnold Park? CR: Yeah, and the people, and you could see all the colors. I only shot in black and white back then, which I still prefer, you know. But you could still see all the shades, all the colors, all the differences in people’s physique. I remember showing some pictures to some friends of mine who were like, “Aw, she’s Egyptian.” I said, “No, she’s not.” They would all look at this. “Wow, look at this kid here. He’s got no skin tone, but he’s got curly hair, nappy hair.” That was the coolest thing about that area. [01:03:00] Then you know the other thing, there was a lot of weed around back in that area, and there were also musicians around. I used to live west of there. A couple of the guys from Chicago used to hang out. There was a recording studio somewhere on Willow, there around. JJ: At Willow, you mean back in Lincoln Park, right? CR: You know where that DePaul Campus is now, okay, and the seminary? Well, just a little north -- north or south -- just a little south of there, there were like these old turn of the century houses, the wooden houses, and all of them were inhabited by recording artists. Like all these guys, most of them were white, but they didn’t care who came up to their place to mess around with this and that. [01:04:00] There was that community around there now. I don’t know if it exists. I haven’t hung around DePaul in years. But that’s the way that area used to be. You know, now everybody tells me it’s all retail. I know the Goodman Theatre 32 �has a theater there, and I used to go to a Borders over on North Avenue and Halsted. I don’t think it’s there anymore. JJ: What do you remember of the campaign? Anything? CR: Yeah. I remember there was, like, a lot of hard work. I don’t know about anybody else. I didn’t care about winning or losing, just the fact that there was a Puerto Rican out there doing this. That’s the only thing that mattered to me. That was cool. Oh, we might win, we might lose. What the hell? [01:05:00] Just a Puerto Rican out there trying to do this, and that meant a lot to me because, you know, I was a Puerto Rican out there trying to write, trying to play trumpet. So just to see -- because it just seems like with us, man, we just don’t wanna try sometimes. It’s just, uh, I dunno. We say, no, you’ve just gotta try, and just trying, it leads to other things. We do have some cool guys -- well, you know, I don’t think much of politicians, but we do have some guys out there doing stuff. JJ: So that wasn’t like a traditional campaign anyway, though, was it? CR: No. No. There were all these young people. You know, [01:06:00] traditionally a couple of older guys would round guys up, tell them, “All right, you’re voting for David. Get in there.” This was like young people, and young people putting out the word and everything. Our parents, our neighbors looking at us like we were crazy, you know, but there was always this feeling in me that there was a little bit of pride in them for what we were doing. JJ: The adults, you mean? CR: Yeah, because, you know, they’d say, “No, don’t do that. [Soy comunista?].” And all that. 33 �JJ: So they were using it. The machine would spread rumors too, so they were saying [es un comunista?]. CR: Well, yeah, but everybody said that. But, see, [01:07:00] again, all that -- JJ: How was our office? How did that look? Do you remember seeing the office? CR: Yeah, you had, like, you know, the person at the desk and then a couple of classrooms or something. JJ: No, I mean outside. How was it painted? CR: I don’t remember the painting. JJ: You don’t remember the purple? There was a purple. CR: All right, now I do. Now I do. JJ: A weird color. CR: The weird thing about that is that later on when that rock singer Prince became popular, and that purple -- I said, “The hell? There’s this guy -- like, is his father a Young Lord or something?” That was all I could ever think about Prince, other than the fact I saw his first concert ever. Well, I think it was his first concert. [01:08:00] It was at I believe Northern Illinois University, football stadium. It was the Rolling Stones tour and he was opening up for them, right? So his band started up. They did something. Wow, these guys are like Devo. Then he comes out and he’s got this long trenchcoat. He’s dancing around. That sounds cool. Then he takes the trenchcoat off and he’s wearing a g-string and we’re like -- (laughter) My girlfriend at this time, [Iona?] -- this white girl Iona -- she said, “Get that faggot off the stage.” And it might be on YouTube with this can of beer hitting the pianist from Prince’s band. That was my girlfriend throwing that beer, 34 �you know. And people were going nuts. “Get him off,” and everything like that. After about 20 minutes, the Stones [01:09:00] came out and everybody rocked it and everything. But now as an older, more civilized, mature person, I’m thinking, okay, we ran Prince off to bring Mick on, who’s been having affairs with his [basic?]. Again, well, I mean, at that time, it was insanity fueled by reefer, Johnny Walker, and -- what were we snorting? Coke, I guess it was. No, it wasn’t. Hash. We all wanted to be Jim Morrison back then. But, see, then that’s another thing that I think the music was so much better back then, all right? I’m glad to see Hispanic artists from Mexico, Ecuador, South America becoming mainstream because that means money for them. But damn, [01:10:00] they’re losing the music. I liked it better when there was a separation between art and what’s popular. But I feel good for them because they’re making money. JJ: So what do you think about -- you were in Lincoln Park, and you also were in Wilton and Grace. Both these communities had Puerto Ricans in it and other minorities. CR: Right, right. JJ: But they left. Did they leave or were they pushed out? CR: Everybody left. JJ: Okay. They just wanna leave? CR: No, again, the rent was too high. And so everybody got moved west, and I mean everybody. That was a big immigrant area, even [01:11:00] immigrants from the South. There were a lot of people there from Kentucky, New Orleans, well, Louisiana. You know, everybody got moved west. 35 �JJ: They [get moved?]. CR: Oh, no, no, it was got moved. I’m convinced there’s no way in the world this could’ve happened accidentally, that there was a plan to just move people out and take advantage -- JJ: What convinced us? CR: Because it doesn’t make any other sense otherwise, and because I’ve gained -- I love golf, you know, and I go to trade shows where I find deals and I sell deals to people. What I found is that these types of things in cities, businesses like a Walmart [01:12:00] or something like that, they target an area. Then they get political, and through the politician, they get zones changed or whatever, and rent becomes a little higher. Then people, friends of the investors, brothers and sisters and all that, they go in there and buy. That’s how Wrigley Field became Wrigleyville. Before it was all Puerto Ricans, Greeks, poor people, and a lot of bohemian artists who were also poor people. JJ: Wrigleyville by the Cubs, right? CR: Right. That’s like one guy said to another guy -- JJ: This was Puerto Ricans and poor people. CR: No, I’m talking about primarily restaurant and bar guys, the restaurant industry. JJ: No, no, but I’m saying before that. CR: Oh, yeah, before that. They said, [01:13:00] “All right, the Cubs are there. You got that ballpark there. It draws. All right, let’s clean it up. Let’s clean up the area.” JJ: Let’s clean it up? 36 �CR: Yeah, let’s clean it. Let’s clean up -- JJ: So cleaning it up means getting rid of -- CR: Right, because you can buy the buildings -- JJ: Am I putting words in your mouth? CR: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You buy the buildings cheap, you get rid of the people that are there, you renovate ’em, and you sell them high. That’s how Wrigleyville became Wrigleyville because that’s what they did in that whole area. You know, bought the buildings cheap, they got rid of the people. I don’t know if there was a westward move then. People just scattered. Some people went to the South Side. Some people came back here to the West Side. [01:14:00] Then other people -- wow, I know of Puerto Ricans who went back to the island and are doing very well, you know. But people just disappeared. You know what? You’ve got me interested now. In some way or another, in one of my runs, I’m gonna stop and talk to those two women, you know, find out how they were able to hold on, because it’s fascinating to me. I once ran by there on Thanksgiving and their whole families on either side were there with the traditional foods and everything. I bring them up because that area now, you know what the rent is? The ownership tax, just owning property in that area right now, is incredible because of the tax that you have to pay, because that to me shows [01:15:00] a certain amount of success and survival. Well, that’s what it is, success and survival. JJ: What do you mean? 37 �CR: Everybody else got beaten out. They rode everything through to the point that now when that area is at its most valuable, they’re still there, you know? They weren’t beaten out. And that’s something that -- JJ: Who wasn’t beaten out? CR: Those two Puerto Rican families. JJ: Okay, those Puerto Rican families on Orchard. CR: Yeah, because as you go down, you no longer have Cabrini-Green there anymore, so it’s like, wow, if you wanna get poetic, those buildings were destroyed. But these two families still thrive, you know, because when I went by there last year, I could see someone coming in with a baby. I was like, wow, that’s awfully cool. [01:16:00] So one of these days, I’m gonna stop off and say, “Man, I’d like to write about you people.” You know what I mean. JJ: It’s getting late. Any final thoughts? CR: Well, the only final thoughts I have is that, you know, the ugliest thing in me is this whole election. I want it over and done with. I respect the president. I think he and his family have gone through this with the greatest grace, and so have we. I think ethnic people, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Black, we’ve gone through this with just the greatest restraint and calm because [01:17:00] I’m sure most of us -- well, I don’t know. I won’t say most. I feel that his four years have been an assault on me, all right? JJ: What do you mean? He assaulted you, you mean? CR: No, not him. JJ: But his four years? 38 �CR: His four years have been an assault on him. JJ: Everybody has assaulted him. CR: Right. All right, in particular, Tea Party, all right? I just got into a thing with someone earlier today. It’s like, stop with all the crap. That’s what I say to Tea Party. Well, maybe that’s what I should say. Tea Party people, stop with all the crap, all right? Because none of this is about the Constitution or anything like that. When you’re young, running around young about give us our country [01:18:00] back and all this -- you’ve heard of the gorilla in the living room, right? The gorilla in the room, all right? Well, there are three right here that these people just can’t stand. Number one, they can’t stand a Black president. Number two, they can’t stand hearing what the Tribune published not too long ago, that we Hispanics are gonna become the number one ethnic group in this country. It’s driving them insane. Last but not least, they wanna destroy all the rights that individual women have accumulated. And all that thing about anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, it’s all about those three things. I don’t wanna hear it anymore. You know, when people say that Romney’s an idiot because -- and I’m like, he’s a politician. Politicians are not idiots. [01:19:00] They just know that when they’re talking to idiots, they have to talk like an idiot, you know? That’s why that guy said that incredibly stupid, anti-biological stuff last week about rape. Well, I’m not quitting -- yeah, I’m not quitting the race. Why should he? He’s five points ahead even after having said that stuff. What does that tell you? He’s talking to the stupid, you know? And we intelligent people have to realize that there are a lot of stupid out there, and we’re never gonna educate them. So we 39 �just have to just go out there and occupy. Occupy the voting booth. I know who I’m gonna vote for. You vote for who you want to, but do it because you really feel that’s [01:20:00] the right person. JJ: What fascinates you about the Occupy movement? CR: That there’s no leader. It’s like something Mozart wrote, you know? There’s a movement. It moves to something else. There’s a crescendo. There’s a long -but there’s no leadership in it. Someone hears about it and they go there. We’re occupying this building. The cops may come out and kick our asses. Yeah, but I like what you’re saying. I’m gonna occupy. There’s no leader to it. Now, the Tea Party claims the same thing, but that’s crap, all right? They do have a leader. It’s Ronald Reagan. That’s their whole philosophy, and by the way, [01:21:00] the original political Tea Party was founded like in 1962, dedicated to make sure that John F. Kennedy did not get voted in. JJ: In 1962? CR: Yeah. They’re not even original. There was a Tea Party in 1962. It was in Dallas, Texas, right? And they didn’t want John F. Kennedy president, and that was their whole thing. What are you people talking -- you copied from that. There’s nothing original about this. And it’s totally organized, you know. And that’s different from the Occupy, which isn’t organized. It’s like someone will beep you on your phone and they’re saying, “We’re occupying here, we’re occupying there for this, for that. Are you in?” If you’re in, you go there. [01:22:00] You take time off from work or whatever. That’s what I love about the Occupy movement, that it’s of the people. Now, the problem with it is that 40 �because it is of the people, and the people have made their statements, it can’t be co-opted because -- no, man, I’ve gotta get to work. (laughs) You know? JJ: I appreciate it. END OF VIDEO FILE 41 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b60d40e121ffe3ba96035fd98d4e96c8.mp4 a91132c3410f57b6d1ba73c98a7a8cbb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carmelo Romero vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Romero_Carmelo Title A name given to the resource Carmelo Romero interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Romero, Carmelo Description An account of the resource Carmelo Romero grew up in Lakeview and today lives in the Logan Square neighborhood of Chicago. His family lived in Lincoln Park and knew of the Young Lords. Mr. Romero volunteered to help with the Jiménez campaign for Alderman. Maria Romero, his sister, remains a full-fledged member of the Young Lords; in the 1970s she ran the office at Wilton and Grace Streets. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0b310ba23a098d97783c4112a49cc19e.pdf 782c4c3ef5938949032674a6c5406c1d PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Román Rodríguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/12/2012 Biography and Description Román Rodríguez served in the U.S. army during World War II and moved to Chicago’s La Clark neighborhood in 1953. For many years, his wife, Clautilde Jiménez, taught in the Chicago public school system. They also lived in Lincoln Park and were both active members in the Damas de María and Caballeros de San Juan of Council Number Three. A powerful and eloquent orator, Mr. Rodríguez has been a frequent speaker at Caballeros de San Juan functions across a variety of parishes. He also became a deacon and participated in the mass at St. Silvesters in Humbolt Park/Logan Square, where he helped to solidify the growing community of Puerto Ricans who were being forced out of Lincoln Park.In his oral history, Mr. Rodríguez reflects on the changes he has seen over the years in Chicago and the displacement of Puerto Rican families from Lincoln Park. He expresses his inability to understand why Puerto Ricans were experiencing discrimination especially after they had served in the U.S. military and given their lives for United States. He describes in rich detail, a community of hard working and religious people, dedicated to their families and their faith. In Puerto Rico in the 1940s, Mr. Rodríguez would entertain his siblings by improvising jibaro music after working a hard day in the fields. Like other Puerto Rican pioneers in Chicago, he brought his love of music with him to the city and continued this tradition there. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d687c00e29080f03f4b376faa9c732f.mp4 0c08c94a94bc2d0f5709ab8ec5381fb8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Román Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Roman Title A name given to the resource Román Rodríguez inerview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Román Description An account of the resource Román Rodríguez served in the U.S. army during World War II and moved to Chicago’s La Clark neighborhood in 1953. For many years, his wife, Clautilde Jiménez, taught in the Chicago public school system. They also lived in Lincoln Park and were both active members in the Damas de María and Caballeros de San Juan of Council Number Three. A powerful and eloquent orator, Mr. Rodríguez has been a frequent speaker at Caballeros de San Juan functions across a variety of parishes. He also became a deacon and participated in the mass at St. Silvesters in Humbolt Park/Logan Square, where he helped to solidify the growing community of Puerto Ricans who were being forced out of Lincoln Park. In his oral history, Mr. Rodríguez reflects on the changes he has seen over the years in Chicago and the displacement of Puerto Rican families from Lincoln Park. He expresses his inability to understand why Puerto Ricans were experiencing discrimination especially after they had served in the U.S. military and given their lives for United States. He describes in rich detail, a community of hard working and religious people, dedicated to their families and their faith. In Puerto Rico in the 1940s, Mr. Rodríguez would entertain his siblings by improvising jibaro music after working a hard day in the fields. Like other Puerto Rican pioneers in Chicago, he brought his love of music with him to the city and continued this tradition there. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives