1 24 44 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/089e648bc2e9e83f40c1204617b390f2.pdf 8c7a9f6075cb78ab00d822fd63e9cbde PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Anna Fisk Interviewers: Zak Johnson, Andrew Guerkink, and Peter Braseth Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/26/2012 Biography and Description Anna Fisk was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She is an advocate and activist. She discusses growing up being lesbian in a Christian household. Transcript JOHNSON: We are currently recording. GUERKINK: We are on the books. JOHNSON: Cool, forever. GUERKINK: Ok, so there are just a few things we have to get through. A little spew I have to say. So, My name is Andrew and I am here today with Anna Fisk it is February 16 the year 2012 ah and we are in grand valley's Kirkhof center here in Allendale Michigan. And we are going to talk about here experience here in West Michigan. so, could you, please, give us your full name. FISK: Ah, Anna Fisk. Anna Marie Fisk GUERKINK: And where and when were you born? FISK: I was born in Grand Rapids at Butterworth Hospital October 20th 1981. GUERKINK: And your parents, siblings, family? FISK: Names or? GUERKINK: Names, or whatever you like. FISK: My mother is Lou Ellen Fisk. My dad is Gene Fisk. Ah siblings, oldest is Kelly Fisk uh then Jeremy Fisk and then Elijah Fisk. We all have the same last name cuz of marriage and divorce reasons but [Laughter]. We're all Fisks. [Laughter] GUERKINK: And so we want to talk broadly about your experience in West Michigan, you were born here in Butterworth; I was born in St. Mary's so in West Michigan how do you define yourself? What is Page 1 �your identity? FISK: In West Michigan well, I am and advocate and activist firstly...at this point in my life anyway. I'm a lesbian. I am white I am privileged, I am working class. GUERKINK: Do you feel like, the things you described those are the things you see yourself as, in this area when people look at you do they see the same things? Do you believe that? FISK: I think they do, actually. Maybe because my hair, I like to do fun things with my hair I always have. I used to dye it all different colors when I was younger. I can't tell you how many times I’ve been called sir. Which I'm like? But throughout my life except when I had long hair but I cut it short when I was 16. And mostly it happens from people who are highly intoxicated and probably living on the street. I correct them or they see my face and they say sorry. so I think that it's kind of obvious and people are like, "she must be a lesbian." I present more masculine than feminine probably, and it’s obvious that I white and therefore privileged. I don't know if working class is all written on me, but maybe my values or something. GUERKINK: So you talk about your phase of doing things with your hair when you first cut it off. Sort of when, you are seen by other people, they say, "oh she's a different girl" cuz you like to different things with your hair. Was there a point in your life when you were like, "hey I'm totally different from others around me because I wanna cut all of my hair off and go something crazy?" FISK: Absolutely, especially coming from a rural place. I went to Tri-Counties Schools, quite rural, literally surrounded by corn fields. It's on the borders of Malcolm, Newaygo, and Kent counties so it's... I mean there were so many dirt roads when I was going to high school. so let's see, I came out when I was 16. It was during the next years or so that I cut off my hair. It was reflecting my inner feelings of feeling different. My clothing style didn't really change much. I guess you could say very tomboy. I was always athletic looking. I did start dying it really like platinum. I even shaved it a couples times when I was 17/18/19. JOHNSON: Demi Moore FISK: And that was cool back then, and I did not look cute. GUERKINK: It’s just so funny, I don't wanna get too personal but my sister did the same things, she had her phase of platinum and cut really short and its just funny because you do have those feeling inside and you wanna get them out and so i wanna stay on topic with you and go with when you were going through those phases. Were there people in your life around you who encouraged you to develop who you are and your identity and embrace the outward expression of what’s inside? FISK: No. [Laughter]. My family was and still is, I mean a little background. JOHNSON: Yeah, please I'd like to hear about it. FISK: They I grew up in the best way to describe it is Pentecostal tradition. Christian. a lot of shouting raising your hand in church a lot of worship and literally people doing like things that outsiders would come in and say, "what the hell are you doing?" right. Like, "what are you doing right now?" When I was Page 2 �little, I would sit and draw during church cuz it was like 3-4 hours long. so that was my religious upbringing. And I was actually quite involved in church. I mean we went to Pentecostal church when I was growing up and then we started going to Free Methodist Church because my mom's family went there so we wanted to be close to them or something. She also played piano also at all the churches we went to so they need pianists and so she went to the Free Methodist Church which was quite mundane compared to the Pentecostal churches. And I became quite active in the youth group there I was like a pre-teen and I was like a teenager it was very religious and I say religious because I really bought into the religion part of it. And I kinda developed by own spirituality from that also and started going to a different church called, Bella vista church by Rockford. I started going there when I was like 16. Anyway back to the original question. My family, I don't know. They didn't condone it, they said, or anything but they're very, very loving people. and my mom is very like very emotional and, (of her mother) "I'm very emotionally connected to my children, let's have a heart to heart talk and be honest with each other." And my dad actually worked 3rd shift most of my life so he was kinda absent honestly throughout most of my life I did really spend a lot of time with him he would uh work all night and then sleep all day, get up, have dinner, watch TV, take a nap, and go to work. That was it. And the weekends he was in the garage. I mean, the most he ever said to me when I first came out was, "ah, I kinda noticed you were a lesbian" I was like ok cool. "ah, ok I m gonna go work on some cars." [Laughter] and I was having my own internalized homophobia feelings and really just strugglin' and they didn't really offer to like help, necessarily, but "oh maybe you should go to therapy" because that was the only way, "go to therapy." So I could be like fixed or I could fight the desire and still have a "normal" heterosexual life. So, I mean, they weren't like were kicking me out. For a lot of teenager the coming out process you may as well, its almost better, if your parents or guardians are like, "well just leave then" because then you're leaving this place where they aren't accepting you and they're thinking things about you. GUERKINK: You know where you stand. FISK: Right. It's almost like so many things are unspoken and they're thinking so many things and there talking to each other about things. And my mom has a large family and I know she's calling every one, "Oh feel bad for me because my daughter is gay." So they were really, I mean, they knew that I was like this wacky teenager before I came out and I was always like the crazy teen out spoken and did weird things. So one time, when I did shave my head and I was a little bit older and I had actually kinda moved out but not really I was 17 it didn't really work out that well, I had shaved my head and moved back home and my dad was like, "look please don't shave you head again." [Laughter] and so I was like, "cool, ok I won't shave my head again." I mean there was really no encouragement. GUERKINK: So, no encouragement from home, but no one really discouraging you from being yourself it wasn't as if someone was telling you, "look you have to completely change who you are or else we are not going to love you." Was that, you don't paint that out to be particularity positive, but was that positive for you? At least you knew people still loved you, even if people didn't talk about it? FISK: I don't know, I mean I've struggled with it for some years. I've been out for like 14 years now and I don't know if it's like I don't know if it's worse to live with that and like almost like I condone because I am still participating and active in their lives i don't know its about love ta that point people use live as a masking of hate. to cover it up is like the white elephant. Even in general when people are commenting, "I don't care what you don you in the bedroom i still love you." Well it does matter because its not about sex it's about loving someone. It's likes saying racist doesn't exist because we love each other. And the fact that they never really did their own research or got books-and I could suggest books about being gay and being Christian and how to deal with having a gay son or daughter- when ur a Christian or Page 3 �something. Go to a PFLAG meeting or something like that, they never, no. JOHNSON: So what is your relationship like with your mom after coming out? FISK: Well m, I mean my mom and I have always been really close. I guess, we always had a lot of fun together. We'd laugh and go shopping. I was the only kid who would love to go shopping so we did that all the time. And just crack up about things and just laugh for hours on end. And that part continued, we still kinda but, there was always this tension after i came out. there still kind of is there's been some pretty good breakthroughs in the past couple of years only I think we kinda didn't talk about it much. I would try to talk about who I was dating or something and she would kinda like not really respond so it definitely strained it quit a bit. I went through so many years where I struggle with, if i should talk to my parents because maybe they're not saying, "screw you don't bring your partner home" m, I don't know it did change. GUERKINK: You talk about your deep spirituality and you talk about suggesting books to read for your parents to sort of balance your faith and your identity was that a struggle to get to get to a good place and was it a struggle to get to that point? FISK: I am in a fantastic point. GUERKINK: You seemed like it. FISK: It took me a long time and i struggle tremendously and I struggled for many years with it. Initially after I came out other than my family or she needs therapy. I, myself, put a lot of pressure to change. I did not really know what being gay meant. I was 16 I had like boyfriends but they were not sexually active. It's all for show then usually or it was when i was a teenager. Just, having my first girlfriend we were very much in love and it was about loving each other and then of course sexual discovery and we would back and forth, breaking up, getting back together, and then we have to fight our urges and still be best friends. Of course it doesn't work out like that. GUERKINK: How long was the back and forth? FISK: It was at least a year. It was quite a bit of time. And then she went to the same church that I had started going to, Bella Vista. I told her, "why are you following me? we're supposed to be separate and not do this." And then [Laughter] I got involved with the youth group there and made some friends. Disclosed to my small group that i was struggling, "my struggle" we'd pray about it and things and then I had like this, its' so weird to think about it know being so far removed from it part of myself and that community but, I went with the youth group leader and this other women and this interpreter and she went through this booklet called, "Breaking the Bondage" it like a 12 step literal; I used to have it before I-I think I burned it. You walk through this steps where you disclose stuff and it's kinda weird, they have get rid of the demonic spirits living inside of you. After I did that, it was supposed to be cured and obviously it didn't work so I kind of stopped being as active and became really angry with my first girlfriend and she was following me there, so I was like, "well I'm m not going to go there." So I started getting involved in other things teenagers do. Started to party and began to ignore my spiritual part. I remember one night, and that was when I moved out, I lived in what we called the, "drug house" in Cedar with my older friend. He got married and then his wife left him after that. We know now that he had schizophrenia, we didn't' know that at the time. So we had this little house and a bunch of us lived there and it wasn't terrible but it was bad. Everyone was like always smoking weed and I didn't really Page 4 �smoke... Andrew/JOHNSON: You did not have to, you probably had a contact high. FISK: That what I liked about it, just watch Pokeman and get super high or like, "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas." so I was living there and like a bunch of people and partying going on and I was like I don't wanna be here. So it was Thursday night and I was like, "oh, I'll go check out the youth group." It was kind of a large crowd there and you could stand in the back and blend in-or so I thought. I was standing in the back hanging out just, "strugglin'" and the youth leader, what was her name? Denise, oh by the way she works, I believe, at Mar's hill last time I checked, just an FYI. I like to call people out when I can cuz she a pretty horrible person. So, she pulls me aside, randomly found me, I was there for like 3 minutes and she taps me and starts to talk to me. So, she pulls me in this room and sits me down. All of the sudden my small group leader's there and someone else and her were like sitting around the table and I'm like, "what is going on" and she was like basically, "the pain you made us go through and all of this stuff and you put us through this stuff and your not changing and you obliviously don't have the desire to change and your negatively impacting the youth group." I was like, "First of all, I haven't been here for a while and second I'm not that important like not many people know me because I've not been there for a while." She says, "I'm not welcomed to any youth group events." I could still go to the big people church, and I was like, well, now way because no kid wants to go to that. And I was like so floored. Totally unexpected, caught off guard. I came there for refuse seeking refuge and they literally kicked me out. I mean I had to leave, they watched me leave. I got in my car and that was like as close I've ever come to just like killing myself quite frankly. It was, it highly impacted my emotional state. obviously I didn't. Andrew/Zak/BRASETH: Thankfully FISK: I just went back and to the party house and just sat there and whatever. So ya that was pivotal and then after that i didn't go to church anymore. I didn't seek fellowship with other Christians or anything kind of started to really--and I'm almost thankful for that moment because it really made me seek my own answers. JOHNSON: I'm sure you're really mad at God at this point. FISK: I was very much so like why? JOHNSON: Exactly you went back to this church to find refuge and find support and the one place you thought you'd go you saw the opposite. FISK: Yah, I was rejected and at that point I still believed in a Christian God and Jesus Christ, he's my Savior and all the principles I grew up with. But I was like I need to start doing this myself and really find the answers and forget what everyone else says... ANDREW, JOHNSON: Mhhm right FISK: But I’m like wow I need to start doing this myself and really finding these answers for myself and stop just listening to what everyone else says because that is quite ramped in the Pentecostal church to just listen to what the pastor says, and just go along with that. So I just started reading books, I found a book by Mel white, he used to write speeches and ghost write for people like Jerry Fawell actually, and Page 5 �pat Robertson and even- he’s a gay man, even after he came out he did write a couple of things for not jerry but I think maybe pat after he was out as a gay man, he's a reverend, he started a group called Soulforce, and they actually came to west Michigan a while ago, they are a non violent, direct action against spiritual violence against the LGBT community, he was like my hero for a very long time I read his book but I can’t remember the name, but it was very inspirational, and it sort of helped me to kind of look at things differently, what is this interpretation, what does this mean, obviously levitical code is all outdated it’s all old testament, so I going through the new testament, what does Paul mean, Corinthians, Romans I think people are surprised when people find out that I have a lot of knowledge about the bible and things JOHNSON: right FISK: because I don’t just readily go talking about it, so I kind of went through that phase, and then I started to get very angry with my parents and that’s when I was like I didn’t know if could talk to them, they are not listening to me they are totally rejecting me, even though they say they love me, and I can come over when ever I want, or hang out, it’s the principal of it JOHNSON: right FISK: so I went through that for quite some time, I tried not be gay a couple of times. During that time also, JOHNSON: what do you mean by that FISK: well, I tried – I know try not to be gay – [Laughter] GUERKINK: so far FISK: I was quite gay still [Laughter] but uh, trying to have a boyfriend and seeing if I could lead heterosexual life with a man. Zak right FISK: that didn’t JOHNSON: how did that make you feel when you tried to fight these – FISK: it, (exhales) it causes so much turmoil, having internalized homophobia is like talk about having a demon inside you, like having this turmoil GUERKINK: you need that 12 step program FISK: all the time, yeah, I mean just constant axiety, and rejection of your true self and covering it up, and playing roles because what they tell you, men and women have these roles, so you sort of try to be this role JOHNSON: try to make yourself fit in FISK: right, and just maybe dress more feminine, the shit the American family association tells you to do. Page 6 �JOHNSON: nuclear family, 2.3 children GUERKINK: yeah, the “bob” and a dress FISK: yeah and that lasted about 2 seconds and I was like JOHNSON: no way FISK: First of all this guy who was trying to like date was a complete asshole All: [Laughing] FISK: So and I actually knew him from Bellavista, and we like met somewhere at like Mars Hill or something. Cause I went to Mars hill for like 2.2 seconds. JOHNSON: A hot second GUERKINK: [Laughing] FISK: And actually I believe they are moving towards being an affirming church anyway, even though the Devo’s go there, or did, anyway, that’s a side note JOHNSON: Yeah, I read the Time article about Rob Bliss, he is very interesting FISK: Yeah, yeah he is, anyway I went there for like a hot second and I saw this guy and I was was like “oh this must be like divine intervention” [Laughter]. And so we like, we went to this Joyce Meyer conference together. And GUERKINK: Sighs JOHNSON: Who is Joyce Meyers? FISK: She a televangelist, basically, huge, huge, like worldwide following, and she’s a pretty funny lady, she’s southern, she has an accent, she has funny stories, and she’s really like quirky and people like her. She talks about abuse a lot so a lot of people can relate to her or something, or like overcoming an obstacle. And there was and I still really liked worship music, just because I still like music in general JOHNSON: Its good music FISK: Ah, the group from Australia, ah, can’t think of it know, anyway this woman Darlene Check, who wrote “Shout to The Lord” big in the 90’s, her group, her worship group was there and that was the only reason I wanted to go. So I was like oh sweet concert. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: [Laughs] FISK: Anyway and him and I went and by the end of that trip I was like “eff you, you suck”. JOHNSON: [Laughing] Wow Page 7 �GUERKINK: [Laughing] FISK: It was my birthday too. And he was just a complete asshole GUERKINK: Oh, awesome. JOHNSON: Sweet FISK: And then we had a conversation in my living room and he, well somehow we were kind of talking about sex, and he was like “oh yeah, well if you didn’t want to I would expect something else ya know”. And I was like well that ain’t happening. So see ya JOHNSON: Hooooo! sounds like a nice fellow FISK: Yeah he’s a great guy, great Christian guy GUERKINK: Yeah he sounds solid, not to judge your character. All: [Laughing] FISK: Anyway I didn’t have sex with him, he didn’t get what he was going for. Eventually I found out that [sex] was basically his motive. GUERKINK: Wow FISK: And after all that happened, I was like ok, I’m seriously super gay here All:[Laughing] FISK: Let’s just like get on with it, then I really started to go into the acceptance process I think JOHNSON: How long did that take, you came out when you were 16? FISK: Right JOHNSON: And you went through out these pretty formative years that were like, “maybe I’m not gay, maybe I can try and not be gay, but well no I am gay”. So what type of span in years are we talking to you finally saying “I’m gay, I love it, and I’m gonna go with it”? FISK: Let’s see (long pause), probably until maybe I was 23? I think JOHNSON: Took a while FISK: So quite a while, of back and forth JOHNSON: So 7 years GUERKINK: It’s not that long. Page 8 �FISK: Yeah it’s, yeah, having dysfunctional relationships because of it and that after I started really having meaningful, functional, long lasting relationships after that as well. JOHNSON: Great BRASETH: Could you tell me a little bit more about your childhood, just not specifically anything, but just general things you would like to talk about. FISK: Yeah, let’s see, well I grew up in a rural area, I loved where I lived it was a small town in the 80’s and you could run up to the party store, I would just run over there. You could run around without having fearing that something is going to happen to you. Ride your bikes all over town and go places. I really enjoyed my childhood and my friends. And then we moved to Grand Rapids for about a year and a half when I was in like third grade and fourth grade? I did not do well at all. JOHNSON: No? Big change FISK: Not at all, I became like severely depressed, missed like tons of school, they couldn’t figure out what was wrong with me, like my stomach hurt all the time. And eventually they took me to a psychiatrist or something and tried to give me medication but I would, I didn’t really eat that much so I would just like throw it up because it would upset my stomach. Apparently I found out later that my parents were having a really rough time as well, in their marriage. So like all this horrible shit happened when we moved to Grand Rapids so promptly moved back GUERKINK: [Laughing] JOHNSON: [Laughing] FISK: But we moved like out in the country as opposed to moving in town and I was like “oh this is great I’m going to be better here this is a great place”. And so, I had a fantastic time at that house it was a like an old school house JOHNSON: Cool FISK: We had friends that had horses JOHNSON: Nice FISK: It was a really good experience; I think my childhood for the most part. BRASETH: Could you tell me more about your family, not necessarily your parents but siblings anyone else you were close to. FISK: Yeah, I’m the youngest of 4. GUERKINK: hmph (sigh) FISK: My sister is like 11 or 12 years older than I am and then my brother Jeremy is a year younger than her. And then my brother Elijah and I are 3 years apart. so the dynamics were kind of weird. JOHNSON: Two and two Page 9 �FISK: My sister got stuck babysitting us a lot which she apparently resented JOHNSON: Mhmm FISK: Which she hated, she, she was quite rebellious, and got pregnant when she was 15 and had her first child when she was 16 and I was like 5 so my niece and I are like 5 years apart which kind of cool JOHNSON: That’s crazy FISK: Because I never had a younger sibling JOHNSON: Yeah that’s awesome FISK: Yeah well she ended up marrying the man of that child and he was extremely abusive to her so, they had another child, a few years later or something and she basically lived through hell and finally when he nearly choked her to death she finally left him JOHNSON: Thank God! FISK: Yeah and she came to live with us after that, her and this kids which was great, I loved it I loved having my niece and nephew around and I would babysit them, I was babysitting them when I was like 9 JOHNSON: Wow your grew up fast FISK: We were all very close, so they lived with us and that was great, especially because my dad worked third shift and my mom was always quite lonely so she, we just loved it. So it was my sister her to children, myself and my brother Elijah who was in high school at the time and my parents that lived in the house. My brother was signed up to go to the all night like basketball thing at the youth group JOHNSON: Like a lock in FISK: Yeah, a lock in and my sister volunteered to take him, it was like 10 or 11 at night, to go meet up with his friends and it was around Christmas time, she was going to bring him and come back and then we were all going to wrap like presents so my mom and I were getting the little kids in bed and are like popping popcorn. And all the sudden we get a phone call. Apparently on their way, they drove, or like a truck with those big headlights on top of it GUERKINK: Mhmm FISK: Had the headlights on and she was like messing with the radio and when she looked up she was blinded and spun off into the ditch and hit a tree. Luckily she like flew out of the door. It was a sweet car, it was beautiful 89 Monte Carlo, it was burgundy it was beautiful, and so like the big door flew open, and like some how she flew out. My brother like braced himself by doing this (acted out how her brother had braced for impact) and it impacted a tree on her side and it was completely crushed in. and he was like somehow safe, except he was like cut up really bad and his shoes came off for some reason All: [Laughs] FISK: He always remembers that he’s like “I didn’t have any shoes on and it was like winter” Page 10 �All:[Laughs] FISK: And they were in this swamp area, and so got out of the car and he could hear her like moaning and he’s like “oh, stay here” he was all bloody and he said “stay here I’ll go and get help” and the nearest house was probably a quarter mile away. JOHNSON: Oh my gosh FISK: So all this is going on, somebody, I don’t know, he eventually found some a woman’s house and knocked on her door and they called my mom and called the ambulance and everything and so my mom was just like “oh my god oh my god” and I was like what’s happening? JOHNSON: Right FISK: And I was in like 5th grade or something and she just like threw some clothes on and got in my older brothers, his, one of his cars was there for some reason even though he didn’t live there she didn’t really know how to drive it, but she like was smashing gears All: [Laughs] FISK: Like got to the site around the same time the volunteer fire people, because the nearest ambulance is like forever away JOHNSON: Right FISK: And some I’m just like there with the children and she like “I’ll call you or whatever” and there were no cell phones. My sister had broken her neck completely; it was like side by side and thankfully my brother didn’t touch her or move her when she was on the ground because that probably would have killed her. So she was in critical care for some time they had to like put her head in traction, bring it up set back on her neck JOHNSON: Like the halo FISK: Fuse it, yeah, and her spine was swollen but there was on spinal damage. GUERKINK: That’s good. FISK: Like I don’t know how she survived that. JOHNSON: Yeah, grace of god. FISK: Yeah and her lungs, her lung was punctured and stuff, she was on the verge of dying for quite some time. So that was pretty traatic for everyone. And I admire her so much now, and she went through another horrible relationship and divorce it wasn’t physical abuse but it was every other kind. JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: And she got out of that relationship and has been single ever since, we’ve actually grown quite close we would go to her son’s, my nephew’s football games together, we are pretty close now, and I’m close with both her children they are like my siblings. That is her story Page 11 �JOHNSON: She can walk and everything. FISK: Oh yeah, she is fine. JOHNSON: Oh my gosh FISK: She just has like a big scar, and she kind of turns like her whole body [Laughing] JOHNSON: Right FISK: We kind of make fun of her for it. JOHNSON: That’s unbelievable. FISK: Yeah she’s amazing, the fact that she is still living without having had any counseling or anything you know what I mean, and has just gotten through life in general so yeah, she’s, I admire her a lot, and then my other siblings, Jeremy married his high school sweet heart, and they have a two kids, he’s a mechanic. And Elijah got married when he was younger they have like 4 kids, they all actually live by each other GUERKINK: That’s cute FISK: Yeah like in a cul-de-sac, Jeremy lives a few miles away but both Kelly and Elijah and my parents live in like a cul-de-sac GUERKINK: [Laughing] JOHNSON: [Laughing] FISK: We call it the Fisk commune. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: [Laughs] That’s awesome! FISK: Yeah, Elijah, I don’t have anything big about Jeremy he’s cool, he’s whatever. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: Right FISK: Elijah has had the most trouble with, and has been the most vocal about my being gay. GUERKINK: Uh huh JOHNSON: Okay FISK: And he has condemned me, he has said he has felt uncomfortable with me around his children which I promptly said a big “eff you” and Page 12 �JOHNSON: Right FISK: You better not say that to me every again, like you… JOHNSON: Like you’re going to turn them gay or something? FISK: Right yeah, I don’t know what I’m like, what do you even mean JOHNSON: Sigh FISK: That doesn’t even make any sense. JOHNSON: No it doesn’t, there is nothing there FISK: And my dad was even like “what do you mean, what the hell are you talking about” GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: Right FISK: Him and I don’t really speak, we haven’t for quite some years JOHNSON: Really? FISK: Even since he said that basically which was, man I don’t know, maybe 5 years ago JOHNSON: Really, so 5 years? FISK: We just say “hi” and “bye” GUERKINK: The only one in your family that’s like that FISK: Yeah nobody well, most of us can’t stand him too much, because he has a big mouth JOHNSON: Ah, I know the feeling FISK: He just says things without thinking JOHNSON: Yeah that one too FISK: He is very self righteous JOHNSON: Yeah I know the type FISK: Yeah, you can’t even do anything with him JOHNSON: You can’t crack the shell at all, not, there is nothing FISK: You can’t reason with him Page 13 �JOHNSON: No FISK: You can’t, they just like to get a rise out of you JOHNSON: yeah, it’s difficult I’m sure, because he is your brother. FISK: Right JOHNSON: Your closest sibling too so… FISK: Right, he always hated me growing up though JOHNSON: Yeah? FISK: He really despised me [Laughs] I really never knew why. JOHNSON: Because you’re the baby, that’s why, because you’re the youngest. FISK: Yeah JOHNSON: You got everything FISK: Well he did though JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: That’s why I’m so confused, my mom seriously, he is the baby. JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: My mom babied the shit out of him. JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: Serious, my mom still does so… JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: He’s just odd, he pisses my sister off on a regular basis so… GUERKINK: Hmm, great FISK: Yeah Page 14 �GUERKINK: Was it just always like that though, all throughout your childhood, just back and forth back and forth FISK: He was always like beating up on me, and I was like a really small kid and we would kind of play together when we were younger, or whatever and then he started to just like not ever want to do anything with me and the most interaction we had when I was a teenager is he would like drive us to school, and he was always crashing cars JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: We were in an accident together once, he’s had a lot of accidents. JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: Yeah we didn’t really interact, I tried to live with him, because it was closer to where I was working, him and his wife and their first child, and that lasted about 2 months. GUERKINK: Super successful there FISK: Yeah, yeah, that’s when he was still drinking, like he is not allowed to drink per his wife because he turns into even more of an asshole GUERKINK: If you can imagine FISK: So yeah, yeah he, he JOHNSON: A lot working there, a lot working there FISK: Yeah I remember one time he said, he was drinking and I don’t know we were playing games or something and he’s like “yeah, well I know how lesbians have sex, I figured it out”. I’m like “oh did you? You’re a creep shut up.” JOHNSON: Sighs, right GUERKINK: Sighs FISK: I’m like “why are you thinking about that” JOHNSON: Yeah. FISK: “Your sister is a lesbian that’s a little weird.” JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah GUERKINK: That’s a little messed up, kind of gross FISK: And don’t say that to me and don’t ask me questions Page 15 �JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah, right, right GUERKINK: So you guys, I forget how old, older is he from you? FISK: 3 years. GUERKINK: 3 years, so you guys didn’t really go to high school much with him, I’m assuming? FISK: No, actually he, we were both born in October, he started school when he was 4 and I started when I was 5, so I was in 8th grade when he was a senior. GUERKINK: Okay. FISK: So he graduated when he was like 17. GUERKINK: So in high school you were just all by yourself no siblings? FISK: I was, yeah well I dropped out the beginning for my junior year. GUERKINK: Ok FISK: I was very active in softball and basketball most of my life, I very much excelled at softball and probably could have gotten a… JOHNSON: Scholarship FISK: Like a full ride scholarship had I completed high school, our teams always went to like district regional’s and all that. GUERKINK: Sneezes ZAK/FISK: Bless you! FISK: So, but that still, that alone wasn’t enough incentive for me to stay especially after I came out. JOHNSON: Did you go back to get your… FISK: Yeah I went back and got my GED when I was like 19, (burps) excuse me, then started at [GR] CC for several years, then I came to Grand Valley and finished up. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bc6b402cfe8fffdb9cc146da00bd4013.mp3 7d39dfa444bb5e664e7282a445b76403 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Fisk_Anna Title A name given to the resource Anna Fisk audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fisk, Anna Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Zak Guerkink, Andrew Braseth, Peter Description An account of the resource Anna Fisk was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She is an advocate and activist. She discusses growing up being lesbian in a Christian household. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Lesbians--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/723b9814a67b9b5c7f2bb1cc4b242621.pdf 003e1e835200ba03ec77bfc7bdf8b7be PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Anthony Moore Interviewer(s): Brandon Golden Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: October 19, 2011 Runtime: 01:03:04 Biography and Description This is an interview conducted to evaluate the successes, failures, and impact of the civil rights movement at home and abroad; as well as the prospect of how one man wishes to make an impact while serving his community as a future law enforcement office. Transcript BG (Brandon Golden): So first just tell me who you are and just a little bit about yourself. And we will start with that AM (Anthony Moore): My name is Anthony Allen Moore, I’m 36 years old and I am married. I’ve been married for 16 years and have a 12 year old son . I’ve been a resident of Michigan for most of my life and a resident of Grand Rapids, MI for a good portion of my life. I also go by the nicknames Tony, Antonio and some other names that we will get into later. BG: Alright, some conversations that we have had before you have mentioned some of your experiences in Benton Harbor and Chicago could you elaborate on those just a bit? AM: I was born in 1975 in Benton Harbor/Saint Joe area to my mother and father. From there I moved and grew up in Chicago, Benton Harbor, then Grand Rapids. Most of my time spent when I was younger in Benton Harbor then in Chicago. My Dad’s side of the family is from Chicago and my mother’s side is from Benton Harbor. Both me and my twin brother, oh I should say I have a twin, me and my twin brother stayed with our grandparents off and on for most of the years. BG: Ok. Growing up in Benton harbor and Chicago, could you elaborate on some of your experiences with the education system? AM: I didn’t go to any schools in Benton Harbor. I did start my early educational history in Chicago, spent a little time in Chicago. The school system there… we went to school in the same area that we went to projects, we lived in the projects, Alden Gardens in Chicago, and there was a school there. I can’t remember the school name, and I think that is where me and my twin brother started our education. The educational system in Chicago at the time was not a great educational system for African Page 1 �Americans, or inner city, or poverty level people. It was not geared towards that it seemed like, I remember not getting a good educational background there. There is an incident that I remember, when it came to counting, counting from 1 to 100, and we did it with Trix the cereal, and we would, every time you count you would fill the bowel up with a Trix and I could never get up to 100. It was always everyone else would have a full bowel, I would always maybe get up to 30 or 40 or something like that and couldn’t go any further. Um and then not being able to read well, not really doing anything quite well. I remember everyone being able to read if they were, especially if they were not black they usually seemed to have a better education than myself or other folks from the same area that I grew up in. We never got the help that other kids got. Even though the school itself was in or near the Projects, it was a public school so everyone went there, but it just seemed that if you came from the projects or were African American, you never really got the same attention that the other people did. I never got the one on one attention that I saw other students get. I remember kids coming in with backpacks and good school clothes especially again if they were not black or didn’t come from the projects that I came from. You know they had lunch boxes I didn’t have a lunchbox I always had the paper bag. We didn’t have backpacks you know, we just kind of carried you know whatever we had, then we had the same backpack for a couple years or whatever. We didn’t get new clothes every time school year came around or even different seasons we’d start off in the spring and usually you know, I remember having the same pair of the pants all the way through to the end of the school year. You had you know your pants you had during the week and then you had your shoes and your one pair of boots. You had to make them last, you didn’t get that. Me and my twin brother, my mom had to do two of us and she really uh didn’t have money to spare. And actually at that time we were living with my father’s mother during that time and she was not a wealthy woman by any means. So she did what she could, she made pretty much a lot of our clothes, I remember her making our own coats she made some of our shirts. She tried, she did a lot, actually some of our, she would try to help us with our studying. For me, it was not a good time because I didn’t learn, I don’t remember too much anything that I learned then I remember always asking for help and acting out because I never really got that help. I remember my mother was always talking to me about my behavior, or why I wasn’t doing what I supposed to be doing in class. Then I remember my mother always trying to uh find some means of getting me more help, and that really just wasn’t a good fit for me. I have told this to several people as I’m older now, I’ve said that I would never ever go back to Chicago for education nor would I put any of my children in that system. I do admit now that they have some of the best programs in the nation, but so far as their education goes especially high school and some of their academies their specialty schools and private schools and their universities, admittedly they do have some of the best programs, but when I was coming up they just did not have that and it seemed like it was just not geared for us especially if you came from the projects, black and uh you didn’t have money. It seems like whether you were affiliated with certain groups, gangs or whatnot you really wanted… it didn’t seem like you were expected to do much. I didn’t get the attention that every other kid did, especially if they were not black and from the project or especially from the area I grew up in. BG: Gong back a little bit, growing up you had mentioned gang activity could you elaborate on that and some of those experiences Page 2 �AM: Pretty much since I can remember, I’ve been affiliated or had experience with gangs. My family on both sides, my mother and fathers side had experience with gangs in both Chicago and Benton Harbor. Benton Harbor was more of a country, kind of a throw back from the south, where it was a small community and the gangs mostly developed based on family orientation and where you grew up. And we were in the kind of on the country side of Benton Harbor, more of the farm side of Benton Harbor so not a lot of industry going on at the time and they were going downhill losing a lot of industries and a lot of factories so we kind of grew up in the… matter of fact we lived on Main street in Benton Harbor, the main artery into Benton Harbor from the highway and that’s how we was known as far as the gang goes. In that respect my family were known for being in that area, and we had a lot of family members in that gang there a lot of cousins, young young young Uncles and they were all known for being in that area. And we really kind a took care of our own there. And really other than the exception of every now and then getting into it with other folks we really stayed to our own and usually made a living selling some type of narcotic or marijuana. But in Chicago it was more of your typical large scale crimes when it came to gangs. My father was in a gang, he started off before I was born, started in a gang with his brothers in the same projects where I grew up. He belonged to The Black Stone Rangers, who came originally from a mixture of The Bloods and The Black Panthers, they kind of, people who kind of came from both of those two groups and formed their own gang that also did, were involved in some motorcycle clubs as well. Through The Black Stone Rangers, I and my twin brother and I grew up knowing my father’s friends and other gang members and we just kind of grew and up and were automatically were accepted into that life style. Again because a great many of our family were in the gang on my father’s side and we just kind of followed the same path and we really didn’t know any other way. Where we were living was kind of segregated from the rest of society, the way most people were accepted to live so being in the gang made us feel like we had a sense of belonging. We were all poverty stricken, if you will call it, and we felt like being in the gang made us have strength in numbers. So far as the ability to survive when you don’t have a lot of money or a great education. We didn’t rely on those things. We didn’t rely on a job because we weren’t able to get those jobs and our parents weren’t able to get those jobs. That was the way of life. We fought for what we had. At a young age, we learned that where we were was what we had and we had to fight for it. We didn’t have money or jobs or think about moving out of the area that we lived in. To white upper class Americans, we were known to only be the poor Black youth because we had a lot of young mothers, I remember that, we had a lot of single parents and mothers. We did what came easy and that was learning to make a hustle. We learned to make money off out what we had. We did a lot of stealing and drug distribution. Being runners, as we called it. Making sure those other gangs or other groups didn’t harass our neighborhoods or that other gangs didn’t bring drugs into our neighborhood that we weren’t bring in. In the gang world, you are not allowed to bring drugs into another gang’s neighborhood because that violates certain codes within that gang life. You didn’t go to another hood because that would mess with that gang’s ability to live and to make money, the ability to survive so sometimes that would spark off some tensions between gangs in different neighborhoods. You definitely learned that way of life, almost like a hierarchy system, in some cases a militant type attitude you had your generals, your infantry, your foot soldiers. You had your O.G.’s , what you would call infantry, the guys that did what the O.G.’s told them to do. They were the ones that went in and dealt with anyone you had issues with. Then you had your drug runners or scouts for that matter, guys who would just check and see what was going on in the neighborhood. They wouldn’t necessarily get Page 3 �involved in anything. They would tell us if someone was doing something they weren’t supposed to be doing or if someone from another sect was in our neighborhood. We learned a lot of rules growing up especially at an early age. We learned how to negotiate the law and how to get around that and how to keep the law from getting involved in every day dealings. Sometimes it only meant if we got the Cops involved that it would only be harder to conduct business and make money. It was almost more of a danger than the other gangs we had to deal with. It was just a way of life, set in and something you learned at a young age, you know, how to conduct yourself in a gang and your ability to survive. You wanted to out age the statistic of dying before you got to adulthood. It was tough, to say the least, but you either adapted, or you died. BG: How about race relations and segregation. Any personal experiences, experiencing any of that? AM: Yeah. I grew up in three different cities, well one town two cities. In all those areas, there were different levels of segregation. In Benton Harbor, you know, Saint Joe and Benton Harbor are buttoned up right next together they are split by the Grand River right there, I mean Lake Michigan, I’m sorry and they have a, you know, a bridge that goes over one of the quarries and that’s pretty much the separation between the two. And everybody knows if you are from Benton Harbor, you are usually are a poor black African American. There were whites and Hispanics, but mostly poor African Americans. Again, a throw back from the south. There are a lot of southern people in Benton Harbor for some reason, I don’t know the reason, but everybody knows if you are from Benton Harbor you are black and poor. You usually worked in a factory of some sort or you had a farm. You know, you were on the low of the totem pole .If you were from the factory you were usually maintenance or janitorial or something like that. If you lived in Saint Joe, across the river, you, or right across the bridge, you were higher education white, higher income you also would have worked in the factory but as higher production, management, corporate banking, those type of deals. It was understood that not a lot of black people lived in Saint Joe. We were looked at as tourists. A lot of times, we didn’t even go over to that side unless they had a parade that went from Benton Harbor to Saint Joe and went back. Or if you were going to the beach you would go to Saint Joe. That’s pretty much the only time we would go to Saint Joe. It was literally down the street from my grandparent’s house, you go down the street and cross the bridge, but we didn’t go there. You knew, you automatically knew as soon as you crossed the bridge you had the Benton harbor police, right there. They usually made sure you stayed separated. You definitely made sure that you stayed in your own area and I had trouble with that. BG: So what about Chicago then? AM: Chicago, Chicago is interesting as far as segregation goes. It was different. It was within, Chicago being a big city, it was segregated more so not really rather you are black or white or class it had more, if you were Black, everyone was on this side of Chicago. If everyone was Italian they lived on this side of Chicago. If everyone was Irish they lived on this side of Chicago. There was a lot of different social groups in Chicago. If you were to ask anyone where the highest crime area was, they would naturally say the black area. I remember lots of time, where if we went to downtown Chicago in the entertainment district or business district even navy pier we were assumed to cause trouble. WE were assumed to have drugs on us. We were assumed to be looking for a rival gang to be getting into trouble with. As long as we stuck to our own side or our own area and we followed this kind of unwritten rule, especially when it Page 4 �came to law enforcement, if we outside of where we were supposed to be we ran into a lot of opposition whether it was law enforcement or other groups. For instance, Chicago has one of the biggest China town or Asian Americans places in the nation which was not too far from where I lived, but we were not allowed to visit there. If we did it was automatic trouble which involved a lot of fights. To give you an example, I had a martial arts instructor, my father brought me to this school to learn from this Asian American and I was going to learn Karate and I can remember where the school was it was not in Chinatown but close to it and it was also was not in our area of the projects or the gardens. My father took me to the school to train and you could just feel the tension in the room where it wasn’t accepted yet for the two groups to be together it was a monetary thing. It was ok for us to spend money but it wasn’t ok for us to be there without any reason or to socialize in that area. It was very,very interesting. It caused a lot of stress between the two, a lot of tension between the two. You would work or train with an Asian American right next to you and you would spar, but you wouldn’t talk. You would, you know, do all these exercises together but you didn’t say anything to that person and you didn’t say anything before or after. It was very far down the line from what was expected. Even though you had the two groups there you would stick to your own and there was no mingling, there was no hanging out. When we done we went back to our neighborhoods. I didn’t have Asian friends, as a matter of fact, I didn’t have any friends outside of my own race when I was a kid growing up at that time in Chicago. In my area even though there were white individuals in the Projects I grew up in in, it was highly unlikely if there were going to hang out with us. I do know that I had a few, but not many what so ever, very few white and Asian friends. There were not any Hispanics, they kind of just, stayed to themselves. Unless you are accepted as an individual there were no mingling of cultures not like there is now. The society of Chicago was much different when I was growing up there. BG: How about your experiences with law enforcement? AM: My experience with law enforcement, umm, well if there was any experience with law enforcement at the time, it wasn’t good. My experience was very negative. Very, very negative. I did not have a good relationship with them. Because of the fact that I grew up in the gang, the way that I viewed life was based off of, take everything and don’t give anything. Everything in my life was, I was taught to, fear the law, oppose the law, and the law is not my friends and they are not there to support me. Do everything you can to outsmart the law, run faster, be stronger. The law was the boogyman to all of us in Chicago and Benton harbor. They weren’t the protect and serve of law enforcement today. They didn’t care what happened to you, where you came from, how much money you made, your parents. Your life meant nothing to the law, the law, I never once in Chicago or Benton harbor just stop and instead of, just pulling me out of the car and putting me against the wall or always saying hands up first gun out second or excuse me, gun out first and hands up second. I never had a cop once say hey how are you doing today. To this day in Chicago and Benton harbor, never have I walked in the street and they just say Hi and they politely give me a nod. I never grew up asking for help from a cop. I have never once asked for help from a cop. I’ve been thrown on the ground, put up against walls. And knowing what my history was then, some of the choices I made were self- inflicted, but I always wondered why we were always told, why cops were made out to be such a bad guy. Growing up, I never saw that they were good or what they could do for me. My earliest memories of a cop is my mother, I was running the streets at the time, at that point I had good reason to stay away from the cops, my mother her car broke Page 5 �down in the middle of the street and my mother asked a cop if he could help stop traffic or do something to assist her to get the car into the driveway. I remember exactly what the cop had said “No I’m not going to help you, you need to get this out of the road before I write you a citation.” This cop was going to write us a ticket even though we were right by our house. I didn’t see any good come out of that situation with the cop. When I was growing up, the only time the cops came is when they were looking for you. And there have been many times when someone needed help for some reason or another and they never helped or got that. A lot of people were afraid of the cops and were afraid to report crimes they just weren’t there to help. When you only get one idea of what a cop is, especially when you aren’t doing all the right things, it helps to see a cop help. I know that I have done enough running from a cop to understand how to get a cop to chase you and how to get a cop’s attention, but never in a good way. A lot of times in Chicago, Benton Harbor and Grand Rapids you never, I never felt safe. I never felt the cop had my best interest at heart. A lot of times I’ve been walking on my own going to the store, a lot of times, especially in Chicago if I was in an area that was not my own I’ve been pulled over or walked over to and patted down and wasn’t even asked one question. They didn’t ask me one question before they patted me down and that was my experience a lot of the time growing up. In Benton Harbor, you were told by not only your peers, but even my elders, my parents, aunts and uncles, they would always tell you, don’t get pulled over by a cop. If you get pulled over by a cop, you better have money on you. There was a joke in Benton Harbor, if you get pulled over by the cops, you better hope that you go to jail. A lot of times you didn’t make it there. And in Chicago, kind of the same thing went and to this day there are a lot of unsolved crimes where cops have been suspected of abusing, and or and, doing crimes against people that they detained or arrested. And just let go. They would arrest them, drive somewhere and we would see those guys a few days later and they would be all beat up and you would ask them what happened and they would just say “Don’t get pulled over. I’ve gotten pulled over and any time I did something, I had a bad feeling, but you never wanted to get caught by a cop. I’ve crossed highways, ran away, hid in abandoned houses, I did anything not to get caught by a cop. That’s my young life. There’s still things I worry about now as an adult when it comes to the law. It’s abundantly clear that certain things haven’t changed. BG: Now you’re going into law enforcement yourself, you’re going to school for it. How do you hope to effect that? Do you want to make an impact on today’s youth? AM: I really do want to make an impact on today’s youth, I really do. I want law enforcement in general, to be viewed in a different way. I don’t want law enforcement to be viewed the way I viewed it when I was growing up. I have a better understanding of the way things work now than I did when I was younger. I believe, I truly believe, the only thing that keeps our society working is a couple of things. First of all, our parents, I believe they have a great impact or a huge impact on how our society works. Second, is your own beliefs. Third is law enforcement and then the government. I think law enforcement has a huge impact on the way society works. Usually they are our first defense when it comes to crime. I believe they play a bigger role than just crime prevention that they play a huge role in just keeping society safe and serving as a public servant and really just helping society in its day to day life and procedures. What I think could help with that is if law enforcement in itself, can learn to view people as more than just a demographic or an area of society. There are so many different kinds of people out there with different beliefs, religions, colors, etc. and law enforcement just needs to adjust to these Page 6 �different types of groups in today’s society. I see myself getting into law enforcement to change how people view law enforcement and how law enforcement views people. I go into this knowing that I still have a certain judgment of law enforcement and I still have a certain uneasy feeling or distrust of law enforcement, more so a distrust toward law enforcement, it’s not like it just went away. I still have things happen to me on an everyday basis based on my color that makes me, in some ways, still fear law enforcement. I still tell my son, to this day, to fear law enforcement first. Not because they deserve that fear, it’s because there are certain individuals in law enforcement who are not there for the betterment of the individual. I tell him, I teach him how to deal with law enforcement in a way that gives him the best chance of a positive outcome. Not because law enforcement is there to help us in every instance, but because I want him to survive and get himself out of what could become a worse case scenario. I think if we as a people, a lot of African Americans need to get into law enforcement represent us, law enforcement to this day still doesn’t have a good amount of African Americans to represent the community that their in. We don’t have very many black officers, female officers, or black female officers. None of these groups are very available in our communities and we need them in order to help law enforcement understand the background, understand the mindset, understand the cultural differences, the pre conceptions, the notions that African Americans have about law enforcement. I think we can break that and find a way around this gap between trust and fear and not only from the black community to law enforcement, but from law enforcement to the black community. There are a lot of law enforcement officers who assume that every time they pull and African American over, they are going to find drugs. Or when they stop us we are going to have a weapon that’s unregistered or when they get called to a domestic there will always be a case where a black male is beating on either a black female or a black female which is more common now, the white female, who is a target of domestic abuse in the community because there are so many interracial couples in the community. A black male, in my opinion, just based off of experience is still one of the most dangerously viewed encounters that a white officer is going to have, that is the biggest fear. I’ve talked to many white officers, since I’ve been working in this industry, that their biggest fear is the black male. I’ve been a target of that many times. We need to change the theory that if you go into an inner city and run into a black male who stands over 5 foot 7 and happens to be over 200 pounds that you are going to have to do something to them instead of talking things over first. I think the media has played a big role in making that easy. For me, it has made it somewhat harder for law enforcement and the black community to get along. For any positive outcome that has ever come from race relations between African Americans and law enforcement, and there’s some black guy running away from the cops for some reason or it is just assumed that every time there’s a robbery or something bad has happened there is a black guy who is being hunted down. It seems like every time you turn on the television all these crime shows, they are usually after black male. In the movies that come out, the villain is usually a black male. Who plays the pimp? Who plays the thug? Who plays the prostitute? I think the media to this day, still has not done enough and has sometimes helped to instill this notion in these officers about black males that by the time they graduate, they think they already know what they are going to have to deal with as far as African Americans. I know this from experience because as to this day, I’ve been that guy who’s been pulled over and law enforcement assumes that something bad is going to happen. I believe that law enforcement learns, they’ve been taught that, basically to come in with an idea of how to deal with racial tensions and I don’t think their taught well enough yet to think of the individual or to Page 7 �treat people as an individual. Not as a black male or a black female who doesn’t care for themselves enough to get out of an abusive relationship or you know, all these things. I think there has to be more reflection of what the true situation is in the black community. That’s why I think we need more black officers out there, not just of the African American creed, but just white officers who understand the situations being faced by the black community. Not that I believe that all white officers have the same ideas, but I think if we get more people from different backgrounds, we can help to broaden the idea of how to treat the members of the black community. We need to do that. I think that is why I have been so interested in law enforcement for the longest time because we need a different system of safety and enforcement and some sort of service that is there to protect us as a community. Despite my own hesitations or my own judgments on law enforcement, there is no way to make changes without joining the ranks of law enforcement. BG: Looking back, you know, on the way you grew up and the way things were then do you think we’re heading in the right direction or were stagnant or they are improving? AM: I think we are heading in a couple of different directions .I think America in itself has a selfcontained idea of how society works in America. I think that there have been many improvements in relations, but there have also been many setbacks as well. I think that certain individuals with the media, you have to remember the media is so big now, it shapes our ideas of life. The news, television, the internet, all of things have a huge impact on the way people think. In general, there are many people who made changes and improvements on how race relations go. We don’t have Martin Luther Kings, we don’t have, uh, many people. The Kennedys and other people. We don’t have the leadership or people who are willing to say the world needs to change like we had, you know, a couple of generations ago. But I think we do have a new group of people who are willing to step up, some of the younger ones, a new group of people who want to step up to the rest of society and say, you know, enough is enough. We need to get beyond this idea of separation and beyond this idea of who is better than who, uh, religious backgrounds, even based on if people are gay or lesbian. I think the world is trying to say, you know, for all of our differences, that’s what makes us the same. I think, through the media, unfortunately, that when something bad happens it is often publicized way more than all of the good that has been done. There are still many people who believe in that old system who are not willing to take part in change. There are many people who believe they have the power to change or to not make change, based on their beliefs. I think those are the people we have to worry about. I think there are people that are in power now and if they had more, we could go back, we could end in the same situation that we were in during all of the riots and the mass killings and bombings or church burnings or all of those things that made things happen. We could go back. I was just the other night, told a statistic, that is kind of scary where I think it was like 46% of all Mississippi Republicans think that interracial marriages should be banned. That’s a scary thought that, that many people think that race is so much of an issue that they need to put a stop to it. And I think there are many people who still believe things like that. I believe that in this country we still have this internal identity crisis or this internal struggle to identify who we really are as a people. I think it is very evident in race as far as race relationships and sexual orientation. We, as a country, believe in freedom of speech and freedom of how we should live , but we don’t understand that what we believe is our choice to believe and that we cannot contain it to ourselves. We think we need to press that belief onto others and we haven’t gotten beyond this idea of, Page 8 �you know, we are individuals first. We can’t put our beliefs on anyone or force that. That is what this whole country was founded on or was supposed to be founded on. The fact wanted to not be controlled and not be pressed by someone else’s or one individual’s idea. So we come to a different country and you know, we can say that we conquered this country, but in a way we left one country to come to another country to find our own identities and be free of someone else’s. I think we still struggle with that. I think internally we still struggle with that. On a broader scale, on a national scale, I think every other country has looked at us as, because we’re a young country yet, especially given the fact that other countries have been around and their societies have been around longer than America as a fully functional country. The rest of the countries look at us as we are immature, still young and how we perceive our way of life, our culture. We’re not identified as a single culture as other countries are. We’re looked at as many different cultures trying to co-exist. I think we have a long way to go to respect it, to truly respect it not as a military or industrial superpower and we’re not even that really anymore, but as a culture. America has not been defined as a culture yet and I think that’s unfortunate because we do have so many different cultures here and so many possibilities, because of that that we truly haven’t embraced yet. BG: is there anything like last thoughts that you want to add AM: Yeah I think that just for anyone it doesn’t matter what color they are, I think what it boils down to, we talked about race relations as a separate entity as a relationship just between people. I think one of the biggest problems we’ve had in this country is to identify that our culture and our history is based off one of same. We have had an identity crisis for way too long, and I think that we should not still be held up by what religion you are, what color you are, what sex you are, what orientation you are, um… we have to coexist. This country, as well as this world in fact, are not going to improve as making things better or making our lives more fulfilled unless we understand that it takes each other to do that. I want a world where my son, and his children, are going to prosper because everyone wants the same thing. Everyone wants to be prosperous, everyone wants to be fulfilled and healthy in every aspect. I think we are so far behind, we allow money, we allow greed, we allow control, we allow fear to dictate how we treat others. We need to go back to the beginning and understand that the only reason that we are a higher intelligence, on this planet, to this date is because we had to rely on each other. There is no separation when it comes down to it. There is no who’s better than who, there is no cultural difference. We are, in fact, a human species, so therefore there is only one culture in that. We are not a separate species, black, white, red, brown, yellow, we are still a human species. You know, uh, we look at the animal kingdom, we are so fascinated on how all these different types of animals within the same species, we look at cats and there is everything from a cat to a lion. We are amazed by the fact that, you know, there is so many different kinds out there we are amazed by, a parrot to a hawk. And we are fascinated by the fact that they are so diverse in every way. There are so many different kinds of everything out there, so many different colors, so many different sizes, so many different shapes, and we are amazed by the fact that this plant has so much to offer us in variety and we can’t see that same thing in ourselves. And I think once we can understand that there is so much we can gain by allowing ourselves to be one culture. And understand that there are so many gifts out there; there are so many things to learn about ourselves, by learning about each other. That once we get beyond those short comings of why we are different that we will truly then be able to embrace ourselves as a human Page 9 �species and be able to move forward from this point. I think we are stuck, I think we are, for so many different reasons we have not gone forward. Since the invention of the wheel we haven’t found anything other than … the wheel. The wheel is still one of our biggest successes. We haven’t gone beyond that, and medicine, for all these things we’ve done with medicine we still can’t cure the common cold. What’s stopping us from being a better people? What’s stopping us from saying, you know waking up one morning and saying, you know, “I’m not going to let anything stop me from being a better person.” When is the last time we went outside our front door and saw someone of a different color and say, I’m just like that person? That person has the right to live, right to breath, the right to be who he wants to be, he, she, who they want to be. When’s the last time someone has stand next to someone of a different background and said, “That’s ok”. I often wonder at times what we would do if we were all the same, if we were all the cookie cutter copy of one another. Would it be ok? Would we not have war? Would we not have class differences? If we all had the same job what would we do? If everything was a white sheet of paper what would we use as paper? Why do we have pencils and crayons and paints if it wasn’t meant to have an abundance of color? Why have trees that turn color? Why go to a forest, if not to look at all the different things out there? Why do we go to the museum if not to see what’s different? I think we need to understand that we have so many examples of why different is good, we don’t see our own success. We are so afraid of what comes after that. We’re so afraid of what happens if we are willing to give instead of take. I just hope that one day that we can finally come to a plan, and just embrace the fact that we are different, that we are going to be different and enjoy what comes next and not be afraid of it. And that’s pretty much all I have to say about that. BG: Alright well thank you and it was good. Page 10 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d2f8e3b61be44bd940da241d487c5b71.mp3 46a4e8cc387c7a9e64bc411b0331a481 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Moore_Anthony Title A name given to the resource Anthony Moore audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore, Anthony Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Golden, Brandon Description An account of the resource This is an interview conducted to evaluate the successes, failures, and impact of the civil rights movement at home and abroad; as well as the prospect of how one man wishes to make an impact while serving his community as a future law enforcement office. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-19 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b73a7e5f993aa23580f5d974ee4dfca1.pdf 56d02c3fe2370c51d1564ed980d476e3 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Arlene Akker Interviewers: Kelly Gorajec, L. Bailey, B. Harter, and Z. Huyser Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/22/2012 Biography and Description Arlene Akker is a teacher at Muskegon High school. She was born and raised in Muskegon Heights. She discusses racism and diversity growing up in Muskegon. Transcript Kelly Gorajec (GORAJEC): I’m here today with Arlene Akker, my name is Kelly Gorajec, its February 22nd, at 3:03 PM at Muskegon High School in Muskegon, Michigan. We’re here today to talk about your experiences with civil rights in west Michigan. So, can you give me some basic information about yourself? Arlene Akker (AKKER): Well, my name is Arlene Akker; I’m a teacher at Muskegon High School. I was born and raised in Muskegon Heights, Muskegon. I have lived on Amity Avenue by Steele Middle School. I went through Angel and Steele, and then because my mother taught at Muskegon High School, I had to go through a private high school, but I took classes here. And, I have a degree in History and English and I have lived in Muskegon for a long time. GORAJEC: do you have any children? AKKER: I have two children, they are both adults. GORAJEC: Can you tell me about where you went to school? AKKER: Well I went to Angel and Steele school, which as you know, an elementary or at least it was an elementary school and middle school to Muskegon public schools. I had, when I was at Angel school, the very first African American teacher in the Muskegon Public Schools. She was my fifth grade teacher (that’s interesting) she was also my teacher at the time that Kennedy was assassinated so there’s a lot of history there. And she’s still very active in the school and I am so glad when I see her. I went to Steele during the civil rights movement and I was also a student at Steele school at the time Martin Luther King was assassinated. So I lived through riots down Amity Avenue where our windows were broken in our homes, and I didn’t really feel safe all the time walking home, but that did pass. GORAJEC: Yeah. So, since you have always lived in west Michigan, can you tell me why you didn’t decide to leave, or can you elaborate why you’re still here? Page 1 �AKKER: Well it’s my home. It’s where my husband grew up, and my *immediate+ family is here and, actually my *extended+ family is not here any longer they’ve moved away. I did live for a year in Holland or two years when I went to Hope College, and I lived one year in Florida, very glad I don’t live there anymore. , I have always felt the Muskegon had a certain diversity that I appreciated. Living in Florida in a city called Altarnonte Springs, I taught in a city called Sanford in an all-white school where they were very segregated and would not allow students of color into their school, which drove me nuts, that was not my life. So I was very glad to get back here. GORAJEC: Did race like, play a big role in your growing up? AKKER: I think racial tensions when I was little were very covert in Muskegon. I didn’t realize that we had any racial tensions. Angel school was, at the time, probably a very diverse school, but it would look very “white” today, but I had friends of all colors, friends of all ethnicities. I had two best friends, one was Jewish, one was black and that just never occurred to me that there was any problem, not in elementary school. When our neighbor, my first neighbors, sold their house to a black family, I found out what racism was because my parents were racist. They were extremely upset. GORAJEC: Can you tell me about your experience with that, like, were you surprised? AKKER: I was shocked. It’s like “what’s going on?” you know? It was not something that I really felt was a problem cause I had not felt any racial tensions, but, my parents continued to live there several years later. But it was something that I was aware of and as that house sold, many houses in our neighborhood went up for sale and that was probably my first real experience of understanding what racism was. I also had a very good friend who was black in elementary school and we went through sixth grade. So sixth grade went to, we got taken out to lunch with our teachers if we won the math quiz and my friend and I went out to lunch without teacher and we were not served because my friend was black. That was at Walgreen’s downtown, and no one realizes that Walgreen’s had a restaurant back then, before we had a mall, before the mall was torn down, so yeah, we were served, but much later than we had planned. Much later than when everyone else was served. GORAJEC: Have you, you said that you’ve traveled outside of west Michigan, has that affected your view of the world and where you come from in a way? Like how has that compared to here in west Michigan? AKKER: Hmm I’ve traveled through the United States, Mexico, Canada, and seven European countries and the world outside of Muskegon is much larger than people realize. I think that going to Europe really opened my eyes because Americans at the time that I was in Europe were not really appreciated. It was after Vietnam, but it was before some of the tensions that we have in the Middle East at this point, so we had that tension between the Cold War, I mean it was kind of??? and being in Europe and being in America after, even though I was in Western Europe and they were not a part of the so called “Iron Curtain” countries or the Soviet Union, there was still a certain amount of tension. the United States, just traveling around you see all types of people and it doesn’t matter what color they are. There are some very wealthy, very impoverished, and that’s what I see when I travel and I see different pockets of the country much different from Muskegon is or west Michigan. I have a very close friend in Kentucky who was taught in high school that slavery was necessary to run the tobacco fields in Kentucky, because that’s how they made their money, they didn’t have to learn economics. It was an industry that they had that they felt it was necessary. It wasn’t right but it was necessary. When she told me that I about died, I was like “whoa, this is not something I’m familiar with”. Page 2 �GORAJEC: You mentioned some of the major changes you’ve lived through; can you tell me about some that you had a personal connection with? AKKER: Well I have several things that I have personal connection with. First of all I have the first African American teacher at Angel school when Kennedy was assassinated, and Kennedy was a person that we have really no idea what kind of president he would have become had he served out two terms, but he was the kind of president that people worshipped. He was young and vibrant and he was definitely a person who wanted to see much more civil rights within our country. That being said, having an African American teacher kind of enhanced that, and we all got into watching his presidency and being so excited that we was president. And she really didn’t swear political beliefs, just wanted to present to us what was going on nationally in our government and being in fifth grade that was a lot to take in and then, being there on November 22 in school when it was announce he had been assassinated and having her as a teacher, going through that with her helped me understand just the kind of connection she had and it brought me into a connection with the Kennedys that has always been there. I have always been an infatuated person with the Kennedys. GORAJEC: Is there anything else? AKKER: yeah, several years ago, probably two or three, there was a movie made in west Michigan, in Muskegon actually, called “Up From the Bottoms.” It was about the influx of black people from the south to work in the north work in Muskegon in the factories as cheap labor during World War II, and they were actually housed in an area that was substandard from where most of the ordinary people in Muskegon lived. Well, my uncle was one of the people in the movie, he has since passed away, but he was one that was instrental in bringing them into Muskegon working for some of the labor factories. He was a personal director for a factory, but he was also one who had a personal transformation when he realized the living conditions and the ignorance that people in Muskegon had toward our “immigrants” you might say, coming in to work in our city, and he actually helped them find jobs or find homes that were suitable. But if you look at the makeup of Muskegon, you can see how Muskegon is laid out. If you go up Russell Road, in the North Muskegon area, you can see a congregation or, inhabitants of black in nature. You’ll see them in Muskegon Heights, and then they have immigrated and migrated into Muskegon. But that’s where the pockets were: Russell Road and Muskegon Heights. GORAJEC: Okay, have you seen any significant progress regarding quality in west Michigan throughout the years? AKKER: Oh yeah. When I talk about my growing up for years thinking that most racism was very covert, I have seen a tremendous change in the school’s makeup, our society’s makeup, how we view people. As I got older and I saw much more racism, I realized that we we’re supposed to all be created equal, so what’s going on with this little pocket of racism? So, I saw a transformation in people. Especially working in the position I do, in the school district I do. I’ve seen it evolve into an acceptance; not that you don’t see color, but an acceptance of everybody. It doesn’t matter what the color of a person’s skin is, it’s a matter of “Hey, you’re a kid and I’m going to go teach you!”, and so, that’s how I’ve seen a change. GORAJEC: Have you seen any areas where not much progress has been made? AKKER: In our court system. Page 3 �GORAJEC: Can you tell me more about that? AKKER: I still see a very large amount of people who are tried and being found, being tried for crimes, being jailed for crimes. And I can’t say that they aren’t guilty, but it just seems to me that there’s many more black people in our prison system than there is white. There’s also more Hispanic in our system than there is white, and that’s where I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it on advertisements on TV, there’s still an inequality. Oh, and probably in our law enforcement. There’s still inequality there, I still believe that people are targeted for their race in our law enforcement. GORAJEC: Do you feel that a lot of the progress is unjust like in the courts system or does it feel wrong to you at all? AKKER: Mhmm GORAJEC: Is there any specific reason? AKKER: I don’t have an answer for it yet, okay, it feels wrong. I can’t say people aren’t guilty that are being tried I just feel that more people are arrested that are black than of white skin color. GORAJEC: Okay, was there any point in your life that you felt discriminated by others or felt that you didn’t fit in for some reasons? AKKER: I’m a woman, and I’ve been alive for fifty plus years. I’ve seen discrimination because I am a woman. , I have lost out on jobs. Not necessarily in teaching, but other jobs because I am a woman. As I started my career, I worked in management at a hospital and I lost out on a couple of the higher management positions because I am female. I have evolved into not seeing that anymore, maybe because in teaching I don’t think there is a discrimination between male and female, but there certainly was as I was growing into an adult, going into school, wanting to take certain classes being told “Eh, you know, you’re a female, you probably shouldn’t have goals to do that. You should be a secretary, or a nurse. That was the things I was told rather than ‘be anything you want’.” GORAJEC: Okay, have there been any moments in your life that you faced adversity in a memorable way? AKKER: Hmm well this has nothing to do with diversity. But, as a young child I was teased because I had a wart, so I mean, students teased me. I was teased as a youngster, because I was not terribly athletic, but I became athletic as I grew older. , I was fearful of....well, I don’t know what I was fearful as a youngster, but I became more athletic so I faced adversity as I was teased, but I think that as I’ve grown older I haven’t faced a lot of adversity. Gee, that’s terrible I should think about that. Maybe I’ve blocked some of it out! I don’t know, I was never as smart as I wanted to be, even though I was very smart. , but adversity is within the person, but not society. GORAJEC: you’ve already talked a little about your relationship with the civil rights movement, but have you or somebody you know ever been personally affected by the time period as a whole? AKKER: During the early seventies, when we had some real racial tensions, it was after the Civil Rights Movement, after Martin Luther King was assassinated, we still had some real racial tensions here in Muskegon. My brother in law was driving home from a place on Wood Street where he worked, and he Page 4 �had his window open, and he drove down Jackson Avenue, and at the time it was a stereotypical area where people of my race would fear because there were a lot of uprisings against whites. But, his car window was open and somebody threw a pop bottle at him, and cut his face all the way down where he had to have stitches, and to this day my, brother in law can’t even talk to me without having some type of racial slur, even though I’ve talked and talked and talked to him that that was an isolated incident. Things have changed, we have all changed, no matter what race we are, but that has continuously stayed with him. And other than that, the riots I have countered growing up, I was actually in Chicago in April 1968 when King was assassinated, and there were riots all over the streets, and we were shocked. We didn’t know what to do. We were actually escorted out of Chicago to get safely on the highway because of total chaos going on in the city. And that was a scary thing for somebody who was 14 years old. GORAJEC: Do you personally have any civil rights heroes? AKKER: Martin Luther King. , Civil Rights in America, or the world? Because Nelson Mandela is one of my heroes and will always be one for standing up and going to jail. I mean, Martin Luther King went to jail too, but not for 27 years. , to stand up against a party, to stand up against your government and become president of your government is just something that is amazing to me. , a person like a Malcolm X, who takes the “X” as his last name because he has a “slave name”, you know, he has a “name of his master”, as you want to say or speak about it, and even though he was militant, even though he really reacted militantly against so many governmental programs and people, he came to terms with himself. He did convert to Islam, he did become a peaceful person who on his pilgrimage really realized what his heart needed to be, and that really caused his death and caused his people to t against him. John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, you know, there are people all through my growing up years that I’m going to say are probably heroes of mine, because they all had something to do. Even President Johnson people don’t realize how impassioned he was upon civil rights. GORAJEC: Is there any reason why they are significant to you personally or do you just admire them? AKKER: They’re significant because I lived it, and because I saw and followed what they did all throughout my life. My parents, even though there were racial tensions within my family, my parents were very politically in tune with things, and made sure we knew what was going on in the world. I sometimes think that people had distorted images or thoughts or understanding of what was going on, and I think that because my parents were the way they were, I had more of an insight. GORAJEC: Okay, well moving on to your career as a teacher, can you tell me about the predominate background of your students at Muskegon High School? AKKER: Muskegon is an intercity, urban school, and we do say “intercity, urban” because we do include Lakeside and do include Glenside, and those are areas that wealthier (whether that’s good or bad), and that includes outlying areas: the “intercity” of Muskegon. Muskegon has changed drastically since I was a child. There’s a tremendous amount of poverty and, people who aren’t in poverty don’t understand how poverty works, and so the values of my “poverished students” are different from the people in my class, middle class lower middle class, whatever. That being said, the backgrounds of my students fall into several different categories with poverished, to the people whose parents work, to the people who might have a lawyer, doctor, or teacher or professor as a parent. That’s the vast difference when you look at the breakdown of test scores for our school. We are still considered an urban school, and that works against us for testing, unfortunately. Page 5 �GORAJEC: Do you think that.., because the background of the students is so diverse, do you think that has any effect on the school as a whole? AKKER: I think it makes it better. I think it makes everyone understand each other. I mean, I do see pockets of racism. I can’t help it. I can go down to the cafeteria and see an all white table, and an all African American table, and all Hispanic table. But, then I also see an all football team player table, and an all baseball team player table. I would like to see more mix in that. Then, in my classes I don’t, and maybe I’m blind to it, but I don’t see a lot of racism. I see a lot of people working together. GORAJEC: Do you that because students are more willing to mix together in the classroom does that make you feel better? AKKER: It makes me feel better about the fact that my school is probably one of all the schools in the Muskegon country area, my school is most diverse, and I say that because we do have a percentage of African American, a percentage of Hispanic, and a percentage of white. The percentage of African American is higher than white or Hispanic, but it’s not as high as it is in our other schools, and the white population is not as high as it is in other schools. Which, I think helps us become little more diverse, and have more understating of the world around us. GORAJEC: In your career as a teacher have you ever had any memorable instance where one of your students has been discrimination against or faced adversity? AKKER: Yeah, probably too many to come up with right at this moment, and I can’t even think of one specific reason or adverse condition. I’ve had students who are homeless, I’ve had students come to me and say “I don’t have a clean pair of clothes, and people are going to laugh at me cause I’m going to start to smell”. I’ve had students whose parents have just up and left, and they’ve stayed there behind, and that to me is the ultimate in adversity because you’re trying to handle school, and trying to handle whatever extracurricular activities you have, as well as trying to find a home. GORAJEC: Do you think that because you have seen adversity in that way you feel more connected with your students? AKKER: Oh yeah. I’ve heard from people who have been with other teachers from other school districts who look at us and say “How do you do what you do? You go to school, you stay all day, you give kids your phone numbers, you give kids rides home, you do this, you do that. How can you have that kind of connection?” Well, because they don’t have that connection. GORAJEC: So as teacher, do you think that it is important to have that relationship with your student? AKKER: Absolutely, I want my students to trust me. I want my students, if they have any problems, to feel comfortable enough to come talk to me. Whether they tell me their problem or they say “I need help”. I need to know that so that I can point them in the right direction. I think it’s the function of any teacher, but you find it more with urban sprawl. GORAJEC: Have you ever seen the diversity in Muskegon affect the education of the students in any way? Page 6 �AKKER: Ah, yeah. I don’t see that it affects the students in what we teach them, I mean, at this point. What it does, what we’re affected by now is our government interceding and saying “Oh, by the way, your test scores are low; you are going to be evaluated lower. If your test scores are low we are not going to give you as much money,” and everything is dealing with test scores, and no one is looking at the family makeup, no one is looking at the support that our students have, besides the teachers or in school. They’re only looking at “This is the makeup of your test scores,” and instead of dealing with the real problem, which is probably the breakdown of the family, maybe no parental supervision because mom is working five jobs or dad is maybe out of the picture or in prison. I mean, those things happen. And our government just looks at what the teachers do based on test scores. Then I see, as racism or something that is radically wrong with our system, because if you look at the test scores of a suburban school, and I use Mona Shores because my children graduated from Mona Shores, (like that nor not), if you look at the test scores at Mona Shores they’re higher compared to a little bit of a more diverse school. But, many of those kids come from families where their parents are college-educated and employed. Our students are not necessarily from parents like that, or houses like that or homes, you name it. And so because my children, and I can only speak for my children alone, came from a home with two college graduates, they were made to do their homework, they were . . .they traveled everywhere, they saw everything. They had more of a connection to the world than maybe my students have, who have maybe not even seen the shores of Lake Michigan and they live in Muskegon. GORAJEC: Do you think that limits the students in a way? AKKER: I think it limits, our ability to teach the students the best we can because we continually teach to the test because we have to get our students up to the levels that will pass the test in order to become proficient with anything. We are judged by the progress, and if we do not make that a priority, we will not get the funding that we need. And this is happening at Muskegon Heights, which is just a total travesty for the kids there. GORAJEC: Can you tell me a little bit about what’s happening at Muskegon Heights? I haven’t heard anything about that. AKKER: Muskegon Heights has been taken over. , it’s very much in debt and that isn’t necessarily the government’s fault. , but test scores are low. The teachers are doing the best they can. But they have some major problems with funding. They can’t pay teachers and possibly, well intermediate has taken over as far as a superintendent and they are looking at other options. So they do not know what is going on right now. GORAJEC: Do you think that, as a whole, the STMRS community gained a lot from the civil rights struggle, regarding the community makeup and the students and parents? AKKER: That’s a hard one because I think that there has been a major amount of progress in some areas, and in other areas there wasn’t progress at all. , just judging by the people that I’ve known all my life, that may be who I went to school with or who I go to church with, and they are not necessarily as whole on understanding diversity as I am because of whatever they do in this world. They’re not necessarily teachers. And they have some real prejudices set up, and I think that that affects the diversity in the community. GORAJEC: Do you think that, currently, there are issues in Muskegon that need civil rights advocacy? Page 7 �AKKER: Well, yeah because civil rights expand to so much more than things just based on race. There’s gender, there’s disabilities, there’s employment. Who will get the best job? Who will go into a restaurant? Who will be hired first at a job? You know, would it be a white person or would it be a person that is African American or Hispanic? I still can’t solve our problems within our society. But I also think that the knowledge that people need is lacking, because knowledge gives us power. And if we don’t understand and have knowledge of people in general and how they work, they’ll never be fixed. GORAJEC: Is there anything else that you would like to add? AKKER: You know, it’s really funny because you are asking pointed questions that I am all of a sudden going “Huh! I don’t know”. , through all my life I’ve seen definite change. I don’t think that I’ve really emphasized how much change that I’ve seen in Muskegon and in Muskegon High School. When I was a student coming to classes here at Muskegon High School, my mother taught here. The classes were tracked. And so, when you have tracked classes you have people who said quote, unquote “These are the smarter kids.” And well, those classes were predominantly white. “And these are the kids that are struggling,” and those classes were predominantly made up of minorities, at the time mostly African American and possibly some Hispanic. My mother had that impression. When I first started teaching here, she would say “Do you have any honors classes, or all of your classes black?” And I’d look at her and go (makes face) “Ahhh, my classes have all colors in them.” Because my mother was still of that mindset. She was a great teacher, but she was still of that mindset that’s how you are tracking classes. And that doesn’t say to me that all white kids are going to be successful, and all classes with kids of different ethnicities, or minorities, aren’t. Because that’s not true. But I still think that people have that little bit of mindset, and so we don’t track classes other than International Baccalaureate or obviously AP. GORAJEC: Is there anything else about Muskegon as a whole that you’d like to mention? AKKER: Well, it’s changed. The demographics of Muskegon have changed drastically. First of all, you have a downtown section that has stores that people that live in Muskegon can go to, and then you tear it down and you put the mall out in Fruitport. Which is ridiculous. I mean, we all go to the mall, we all love the mall, but then the people who live in poverty in the center of Muskegon have no place to go. So what do we do? We have the city founders coming in, or the city government come in, and say ‘let’s build up Muskegon!’ So you put all these expensive shops in downtown Muskegon, bordering on the demographics of the impoverished of Muskegon, so the poor still can’t go buy anything. And then the couple places that you have that may be inviting to people who are of maybe a lower class, those are (post dp?). And so, that’s what I see with the change in Muskegon. When I grew up we had a downtown. I grew up and I walked right down to Apple Avenue down to stores downtown. I think driving in downtown Muskegon is beautiful, but it does not lend itself to helping those, who surround that area, who have no place to go. GORAJEC: Is there anything else? AKKER: You know, it’s really hard for me to talk about because there’s been so much change and I don’t know where to begin to have a timeline of the change. Great, from the time I was a little girl to the time I live now, I have been involved with Muskegon Public Schools in one way or another. My parents graduated from here in 1935. So I have seen the change, not that I was alive in 1935, but I’ve seen the change in my lifetime. Yet, it has been a gradual change and I don’t see it as drastically as some of the other teachers would say ‘Well, I remember 15 or so years ago when my classes weren’t like they are Page 8 �today,” and they probably weren’t, but it’s been a gradual change for me. And so, I don’t see that as a negative. I see that as part of my job. GORAJEC: Is there anything else that you would like to add? AKKER: You know, I am a child of the civil rights age. I am a child of watching changes, going through the Cold War; I am a Cold War child. I’ve seen ideologies that include the fear of communism. I’ve seen drills that we had in school because we were going to be bombed. And I think that all played into almost making, at least in the sixties, making civil rights more of a minor problem. And it was really a major problem. And I think that we have already seen politicians correct that in some ways. I mean my goodness, in 2008 we elected an African American as president. Never, in my lifetime, did I think that I’d ever see that GORAJEC: Okay, well, thank you so much for your time! AKKER: Thanks END OF INTERVIEW Page 9 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4cad70488270817fd77546c5afc1a551.mp3 a73af457cd5adfa9fb8ccbba13db29ce Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Akker_Arlene Title A name given to the resource Arlene Akker audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Akker, Arlene Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gorajec, Kelly Bailey, L. Harter, B. Huyser, Z. Description An account of the resource Arlene Akker is a teacher at Muskegon High school. She was born and raised in Muskegon Heights. She discusses racism and diversity growing up in Muskegon Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Racism Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a69a5d94a46ffd04f2920a49b1e235c2.pdf 26c4e3c298a0ce8558ad2c2f1cb23c8d PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Christian Vannier Interviewers: Spencer and Tom Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Deparment Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/15/2011 Runtime: 00:56:24 Biography and Description Christian Vannier discusses the civil rights differences between western and eastern Michigan. In particular, he draws on his experiences at Wayne State University and Grand Valley State University. Transcript Spencer: Could you start out by giving us some basic information about yourself? For example your name, date and place of birth, family, education, etc. Professor Vannier: I was born August 16, 1985. I was actually born in San Jose, California because my parents were living out there at the time. My brother was born there too but then we moved back to Michigan and my father went to work in the auto industry. My father was born and raised and he started in Detroit then moved out to the suburbs with the wave of migration when everybody moved out to the suburbs. Born and raised in Southfield, my grandfather worked on the line for ford. My father eventually got a job there too. My father went to Michigan State, my mother went to Michigan State and so they met. So they are both educated and both got bachelor degrees. And afterwards they lived in Texas and California where I was born, eventually moved back and my father become a white collar worker and eventually rose in the ranks to become the head of international marketing with Ford. And he worked at that for a long time and in high school I barely saw him because he was always in Saudi Arabia or China or Columbia. You know all these different places where he was doing all this stuff. He would always bring me sweet stuff. He’s got piello head scars from Palestine from when he worked in Palestine. He always had awesome stories, which got me interested in anthropology. Like when working in Palestine he would talk about when you go over to Palestine the Palestinian border guards would be like “Hey Detroit! Detroit Pistons!” They want to know about basketball and stuff like that. And everybody would have fun and whatnot. Now going over to the Israel side, they would pull the trick where one guy would come up and ask for your passport and he would leave and another guy would come up and ask for your passport. “That guy just took it.” “No he didn’t.” Just to get you nervous and search your car if you speak out of turn just to give you a hard time. It was awful. But I would go over to the Palestinian side and everybody high fives you and off you go. It was great. But yeah, I got piello head scars, an old Yemini’s dagger Page 1 �made out of rhinoceros horn. But that’s what really got me into anthropology, is doing that kind of international stuff. Eventually my dad quit working for Ford and opened up his own company to do this stuff. Where he worked he was the head of the American branch of an English company. So he had to go to and from England all of the time and I would go with him at 18, 19 years old and hang out in London all day. It was fun. But eventually with the recession and everything collapses so it did to. It went the way of everything else. But he actually paid for my entire undergraduate education. He paid for my brother to go to Western, I went to Michigan, my youngest sister went to Bowling Green, and my other sister went to Purdue. It was never a question in our family; you were going to a university. You grow up under that assumption. That’s what you do. You don’t ever question that you’re going to a university. So we did, and like a lot of ways I told in class is like Miles violinists, we followed that pattern. And that is such a Detroit path. That is what Detroit gave America. Where the first persons in total poverty and works on the line, builds up an economic base. The second person gets educated because of that economic base and really builds an economic base. The third generation, you don’t have to worry about money so you can become an anthropologist. I have a geologist, anthropologist, businesswoman, and artist. That’s the four siblings. My brother is finishing up his PhD at Michigan State in Geology. That’s basically the story and I did my undergrad at Michigan. After that I just tooled around. I didn’t want to go right back to graduate school so I went to work for, like I said, an American branch of and English company. So I moved to London for six months then the German branch for six months where I lived in Cologne. Came back didn’t know what to do with myself so I moved, joined AmeriCore went out to Washington State and lasted about six months to doing that before coming all the way back to Ann Arbor where I eventually decided to go back to graduate school. I chose Wayne State a lot of it because it was local and a lot of it because they had somebody I wanted to work with. I wanted to work in the Caribbean. There was a professor at Wayne State that I wanted to go work with because he was an old Haitian man that did anthropology the old school way. You know, go out there on your own in some village hut. Hindsight maybe gave me the wrong idea because that’s not the way the field went these days but that’s what I did. Eventually I graduated, got a job in the honors college at Wayne State. Did that for four years then I came over here. Where I got my first visiting assistant professorship because the job market in higher academics sucks. All of the universities are getting cut. When they cut they do hiring freezes and they do all sorts of stuff so there’s just no jobs available. People keep graduating and it is just a flooded job market. So I’m pretty lucky to get this job and I am so lucky to get something in Grand Valley because I got family in Freemont. It’s about 45 or 50 minutes north of here. That’s where my mother is originally from so I got my grandmother and aunts and uncles up there so I’m really lucky to be on this side of the state. Because there was always a big fear in higher academics, it was always a big joke that you were going to end up at Arkansas agricultural and mineral college. Or moving to Miami of Ohio. It’s a nice place but there are cornfields for hours. It is in rural Ohio. It’s a big joke and that’s where you would end up or something like that. I knew a guy that took a job at the University of Alabama and he said it’s awesome until you step foot off campus and realize you’re in Alabama. He just lives on campus, that’s all. He barely leaves. He’s from New York City though so it’s a huge difference. So yeah that’s basically short life history. But really I think the experience that really made me was growing up in Detroit because Detroit is a very different place, very different place and it’s not like people think it is. Especially right now, it’s really happening in Detroit. We focus on the inner city of Detroit, which is super poor, now it’s changing. But it was super poor and all of the white flight came in. In the rankings of white flight I think were fifth. St. Louis had more white flight, Milwaukee had more white flight, and Buffalo had the most white flight. Were Detroit, were known for riots. We barely riot; we’ve had a couple. But the last one was Page 2 �in 1967. Why isn’t LA known for riots? They burned down their city like clockwork every about 25 years. And there not know for rioting. Were know for racial segregation but New York is more racial segregation than we are, Milwaukee is more racial segregation then we are. But I think what it is that Detroit built itself up to the top. Were the number one city in America like in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s. Were known as the Paris of the western hemisphere and when you’re that high you have so far to fall and that’s why everyone focused on Detroit. But especially when it comes to civil rights. Spencer: Are there any differences between civil rights in Detroit and Grand Rapids? Professor Vannier: Civil rights in Detroit is really, really different because it’s kind of but not really the birth place of civil rights but “I Have A Dream” was given in Detroit first before Washington D.C. Malcolm X was from Detroit and Louis Farrakhan founded the first black mosque in America in Detroit. Malcolm X used to preach there. And a big reason is that it’s the end of the Underground Railroad; it’s the end of the line in Detroit. You go all the way from the South up into Detroit where you would have to hide out in all these old churches in Detroit and have all these secret passageways where they would keep slaves. And the big Mason Lodge, one of the biggest Mason Lodges in the country has all these underground secret passages. You can tour them and they say it’s where they keep slaves running away. But they would also have the slave hunter stay there too. And there’s nothing wrong with slaves eater dinner, slave hunters eating dinner and wall in between them. Because the loop hole is you swim across the river to Canada your free. And because of that Detroit has always had this strong background. One of our riots, I think the 1943 riot, we always had a strong black middle class in Detroit and we had all these southerners coming up to join the auto industry and southerners were coming up thinking they could treat blacks like they treated them in the South. And that’s what started the riot. Young guys versus young guys and these black middle class kids aren’t going to deal with that attitude and it started the whole thing. You have always seen that in Detroit and its very different. Moving out here was really different from moving from Detroit. Like just the way we organize ourselves between classes and stuff like that in Grand Rapids is super different than Detroit. I’ve never been to Grand Rapids before I came here. And my first day, I got this job and I had to find a place to live, and the first day I stepped a foot in Grand Rapids was that day that guy went crazy and shot eight people. That was that day. I was driving down the street tank fast. And I always thought it was badass to live in Detroit. Grand Rapids is tough. And I would ask people where to live, because I always thought it was nice town, and I would ask where to live and people would tell me don’t live south of Wealthy. What the hell is south of Wealthy? It’s very different than Detroit. In Detroit it’s suburb based. Ferndale is nice, anywhere in Ferndale is pretty nice but every place has it’s bad areas. Royal Oak, everywhere in Royal Oak is very nice. Birmingham, you can live anywhere in Birmingham and it’s very nice. Highland Park, don’t live there it’s not so nice. River Rouge not so nice. Then you get into the blue-collar suburbs of Taylor, Westland we call wasteland, Garden City we call garbage city. That’s just blue collar, super blue collar. Here it was different. You go three streets over and you’re in a bad neighborhood all of a sudden. How did this happen? It’s a lot more of what you would see in Brooklyn. Where super nice street, two streets over and it’s super bad. It’s way more like that here where it’s not in Detroit. Where I lived in Burkley you could walk miles and be in nice suburban land; miles and it just doesn’t change. Here it changes and it can change really quickly. I don’t know the history of Grand Rapids and I don’t know why we organize ourselves like that. Like in Detroit it’s a lot of Page 3 �racism where suburbs would guard themselves from anybody moving from Detroit in there. Dearborn is famous for it. They are famous for it for putting up rules and restrictions and all sorts of stuff that prevent black people moving in to the neighborhood. It’s not like that anymore but still to this day there are color lines and dividing lines. Like the difference from Grosse Pointe right across the street from Detroit, and it’s like $500,000 and then a crack house. But Jefferson road is that dividing line. That’s why 8 Mile is such that line. And when you look at population maps, that line is just firm. Instead now a days 8 Mile goes through the suburb of Southfield, which has become the vast gem of the black middle and upper classes. Because they have acknowledged becoming a class thing where middle class flee Detroit. It’s not really race based anymore. But Detroit is changing because it’s now the fasting growing population in Detroit. It was throughout the 80’s, 90’s and 2000’s it was the Mexican population because of Mexican town. That was the fastest growing population in Detroit. Now its young 20 something year old white people. All moving in. And you see it changing everything. All moving in. Hipsters. That’s essentially what it is. Hipsters are moving in to Detroit. And they are bringing with them hip bars and hip restaurants and you see this under-current of change happening in Detroit. Like downtown is getting nicer and nicer and mid-town now is getting nicer and nicer. Tom: But the thing about Detroit is like when you drive there I see so many abandoned buildings and the thing is if they actually want to make the city look nicer they have to do something about those. Professor Vannier: Yeah and that’s one of the great things about Detroit, they can’t. Because those abandoned buildings are owned and you just can’t. We don’t have eminent domain laws, I mean we do but they are super strong eminent domain laws. Where if the city wanted that abandoned building the city would take that abandoned building. The train station is owned by Matty Maroon. And he will not sell it so there it is. Have you ever been to Hockey Town Café? Us: Yeah. Professor Vannier: You know across 75 those tall abandoned buildings, those are owned by Mike Ilitch and he won’t sell them, that’s the end of it. Magic Johnson tried to buy them and he was going to install this huge mega complex theatre shopping mall. Nope. So it would be there and we would all be like wow Detroit is looking so nice but it’s not because Mike Ilitch refuses to sell those buildings. Tom: And that’s weird because Mike Ilitch is seen as like the guy who is saving Detroit. Professor Vannier: Yeah he does a lot but in the other hand he owns a ton of Detroit and he refuses to do anything with it. Like right by the Detroit Medical Center is the biggest medical complex in the world and Page 4 �right in front is this abandoned building. You guy anywhere across the street from the biggest medical complex in the world how much is that property worth? Us: Oh for sure a lot. Professor Vannier: But you know in Detroit whoever happens to own that won’t sell it. It’s a creepy thing. Because typically what it is its called absently landlords. Whoever owns that lives in California, hasn’t been to Detroit in thirty years and refuses to sell it. It’s a tax write off. So yeah, it’s a huge problem in Detroit but it gets that perception where you see Detroit isn’t doing anything. No, people are trying but it’s owned. Finally they sold the Madison building. The owner of Quicken Loans bought it and he is going to turn it into a luxury hotel and apartments and all this different stuff. It’s going to look really nice. Some of those buildings look gorgeous because they are all built in the teens and that old gothic architecture. It looks straight out of a Batman film or something like that. Those gold plated elevators and all that. It’s going to look super neat. He’s going to redo it all and keep that old look. But it’s different. Tyler: Could you describe your experiences coming to Western Michigan? What was it like coming from Wayne State to Grand Valley? Professor Vannier: Coming from Wayne State to Grand Valley is really different. Grand Valley sees itself as a more liberal arts institution where as Wayne State is a research one. They are one of fifty universities that are research one. It’s a huge medical school, huge engineering school and all sorts of research goes on out there. But because nobody is moving out here is that in some of the departments, even the anthropology department you get high-powered anthropology professors. The number one grant getter in anthropology is there, one of the big journals Medical Anthropology Quarterly is published right out of Wayne State. But what you see because of that is hierarchy. Like at Wayne State, even in the Anthropology department, hierarchy. Where there’s people at the top and there’s people at the bottom and I would be a person at the bottom. As in teaching, you teach when you’re told, what you’re told and how you’re told. I come here and it’s all open. Meetings are run by consensus. The chair of the department is the first among equals and that’s all he is. And he sees it that way and everyone sees it that way. They even asked me for my first semester for next fall and the scheduler down the hall came to me and was like all right when do you want to teach? And I’m not used to that question. So I’m like when do you want me to teach? And she says when do you want to teach? And I’m not used to that question. I’m used to being told what classes to teach and when to teach. So it’s really neat because it’s just so much more open and they emphasize liberal arts so much and it’s so nice. At Wayne State I have to explain to students who want to be medical doctors why knowing just what ethnicity means makes a difference. Like why am I taking an anthropology class? This is not biology, this is not chemistry. This serves me no useful function whatsoever. And it’s just hard to deal with. Here everyone gets it, here its way more open here. At Wayne State there’s that different hierarchy where there is a lot of money. The guy that used to own Arbor Drugs and now became CBS sold his company for 4 billion dollars. He is building up Wayne States pharmacy school and it’s going to be the number one pharmacy in the Midwest. It’s going to be better than Ferris. Page 5 �But they got all money. Pharmacy won’t share that, physics won’t share that. Here wealth gets spread around which makes things work. Things are new. It’s just so different and so much nicer. So a lot more goes on at Wayne State but it’s worse in a way. They hire so much more nicer and better faculty here. And how all universities work it’s not up to them, it’s up to the dean. And the dean is looking at the big picture. Spencer: Yeah, here they are really big on student evaluations I know. Like they are huge on that. Professor Vannier: Oh yeah, U of M is the worse but Wayne State they don’t do anything. It doesn’t matter how good of a teacher you are, nobody cares. It’s what research have you done and what grants have you got. That’s everything. Spencer: Yeah that’s what I heard U of M is like too. Professor Vannier: At U of M you will have the worse teacher and you will wonder how is this person teaching class? It’s because they are probably a huge grant getter. They bring that money so you don’t have to. Here they emphasize that. How good of a teacher are you? Which puts me as a visiting professor in a funky position because if I have to leave and I want to go to U of M for example, U of M is going to look at my research where as here they emphasize your teaching. There are only so many hours of the day, what are you focusing on? It’s hard. You have to have a balancing act. Professor Vannier : I’ve got to keep doing research because that’s what other universities are going to look for. But Grand Valley looks for teaching experience. I m in a weird position, its hard. Spencer: I’m sure you looked at your evaluations, I m sure they were all good. Professor Vannier: Oh yea I m not too worried about it. Its ok I did pretty good. But still you need to maintain it because the better they are the better you look. Yeah but other universities they will look at your teaching like third or fourth thing they will look at, which seems kind of weird that they would look at your research, grants, publications, whatever you have done. So that’s why I have moved towards ethnographic films. Producing films. Spencer: Oh really? Page 6 �Professor Vannier : Yeah its whole anthropological thing its one of my, the big film company that does this stuff rejected us. Its one of those things specialist of Africa. Those that aren’t specialist of Africa hate it. Its one of those things its very African. Collective: Yeah Professor Vannier: African’s themselves love it. They think like… It was just screened in Paris by another professor and all these Africans in Paris from French Africa came and she said people were crying and it reminds them of their homeland. People see it here and its like, I don’t get it. You know what I mean? Because we did the film in such a way that it was so African… So we are submitting it to one Afrocentric film company and were working on another one. But that’s the way I differentiate myself…. So when I do have to enter the job market, if I do, I got something that separates myself. We will see what happens…. So yeah it’s really different, professors, students are just very different. Obviously the diversity thing is a little whacky… My classes at Wayne State were United Nations and teaching anthropology was fun, reading a book on Islamic culture essentially, and at Wayne State, 25% of my students would be from the Middle East, if not like 30 to 35% would be Muslims. Spencer: It’s not like that here at all. Professor Vannier: yeah, so these people would know more about that I would and they would talk about it, we would watch a film on India and 15% of my students would be Indian. And you could talk about it but these guys would know more than me. There( Wayne State) you’ve got every damn ethnic group, because you have the auto industry… What is it, they uh what is that little tiny suburb that lives inside Detroit, Hamtramck!.. Is the most diverse square two miles in all of America. There are 142 ethnic groups that live in that area. I have a friend that lives there, and you look at his house, and next-door is a Ukrainian family, next-door is a Bangladeshi family. It’s different. It’s just different. Wayne State is so diverse and here not so much. Tom: Yeah definitely not Professor Vannier: Here you got the Dutch. Spencer: Yeah it doesn’t get much worse. Page 7 �Prof: It is kind of, Vie heard of professors teaching in rural Minnesota, where it just kills them because it is just so damn white. Just rural Minnesotans. So here its not so bad… but it’s a little bit different. But on the west side of the state I keep telling myself I cannot wait for summertime. Because I moved here in like fall.. I got settled in, in October. Spencer: It’s nice here in the summer. Professor Vannier: Yeah that what everyone tells me because you got the beach etc. I want to do M 22, which I see, and I never saw stickers until I got here. I saw stickers on cars that said M22 and I actually had to look it up because I was like what the hell is m22. It’s the road that goes all around the peninsula. That going to be my big thing this summer I’m actually going to do it. But I was looking at this, have you ever seen anyone discriminated in public. Oh anybody else.. yeah not really. Spencer: Yeah she had a lot of different questions that she wanted us to ask, like um , a lot of them were really easy like segregation and stuff but I was like that’s a very select group that we would have to ask that to like do you remember being involved in segregation. Tyler: It was more for like those older people who some people might be interviewing, not your age. Professor Vannier : Segregation but even in Detroit. Its , I remember growing up , a black family moved into my neighborhood, and the older neighbors were pissed. Because they didn’t do anything, but they would grumble.. there goes a nigger.. and even as a kid I thought that was kind of mean and they were just a normal family living there you know, but yeah you saw all these little changes. But you see in Detroit, its still segregated, even in Berkeley there was one black guy on my street that I know of in the neighborhood, and around the corner there was one Latino family. And the only reason I knew they were Latino was because I heard them speaking Latin.. ha not Latin , Spanish. But that’s it , its pretty white. If you go to other areas its very black, if you go to Southfield and you get other areas, I lived near uh…. Its fun to look at, Dearborn is all the Arabs, Hazel Park and Oak Park is all orthodox Jews. And its fun driving through on Saturday because they are not allowed to drive on Saturday, and you see them all walking, so yeah that’s where all the orthodox Jews are. West Bloomfield, Rochester, Rochester hills is the Indian community, all live there . North Novi is where the Japanese community lives. Which is awesome. Yeah, north Novi, you know Novi I96 and Haggerty road. Spencer: Yeah Page 8 �Professor Vannier : well you go to like 15 mile and haggerty and all you see is these Japanese restaurants. One day I was eating in a Japanese restaurant that was connected to a Karaoke bar, and I said I’m going to go check it out, and I opened the door and it was all Japanese men in business suits. And they all stop and look at me. Haha and so I closed the door, and I know when I’m not wanted. Yeah but I was eating and it was funny, there was a bunch of Japanese men, and they brought out that sakei and were just getting plastered. It was just so funny to sit there and watch. They were just feeding them alcohol and all these guy were getting drunk, it was really funny. But, you see it and you see these different ethnic restaurants, its really cool. One thing I miss moving out to uh Grand Rapids is middle-eastern food. Where I was , every gas station had middle-eastern food and there were some really good places, but out here you just can’t get it. Spencer: No not at all. Prof: I miss it so much. That nice middle-eastern kabobs and stuff like that. Tom: It’s so good. Professor Vannier: Holy crap its like 3 bucks a sandwich. Yeah and so you just don’t have it so you miss that diversity but you still see that segregation. its black and white but its going downhill now. Its going downhill , its becoming more class segregation. Where, even then its getting hard to say because people are so mixed now, like in Detroit , your seeing gentrification like where the upper class starts moving into lower class neighborhoods because we are so seeing it. Because these like young white people are moving in, and young white professionals are moving in. And its becoming hip to live down there. If I wasn’t married when I was studying in the honors college, I would have moved down there, but my wife said no way. I would have. I realize as a woman it might be different you know especially at night. And Detroit is still Detroit and you got uh like in the suburbs if you need to go to CVS at midnight, you go to CVS at midnight, but in Detroit you need to be careful about that. But it’s interesting to see how it changes because you see these different neighborhoods. There was one house sold , there is neighborhood called the Boston Edison district, in the olden days it was where all the, like Henry Ford moved there. You know. Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: the dodge brothers lived there, just huge mansions, but it’s in the middle of its in north Detroit. So it’s a sketchy area. There was one house that was built in like 1920 and the garage had a carwash where you park your car, get out, go in your house , hit the button , and wash your car. The ballroom, the entire floor of the ballroom was built on springs so when you dance it makes you feel like Page 9 �you are floating. Fountains, through a system was connected through the entire house so you had all these rooms that had fountains that you just turn on a button. Guess how much it sold for? Spencer: I don’t know Prof: 250 grand. Tom: Ha I was going to say a couple mil Tyler: That’s crazy Professor Vannier : Oh I Know who you see buying these houses, usually now its more like black artist, like recording artist and some sports players have moved in. John sally it was the bishop of Detroit’s house, but John Sally from the pistons you know that old 90’s , he won the championship with the bad boys? He bought it and it just turned around, now I think one of the other pistons, Ben Wallace, I think Ben Wallace owns it now. Spencer: Does he really? Professor Vannier : yeah , its something like that , where you see its just like you have the black elite and the white elite lives in West Bloomfield, like Eminem lives in West Bloomfield. Grant Hill lives in Northville where I grew up. Where I grew up I started out as like a strong white-collar auto industry suburb, but middle management, but you could really see the economy, like who’s who in the auto industry, and where they live. It started out middle management, where if you went west of our house it was dirt roads. Now its so built up its like the elite of the auto industry. Ford and GM elite high ranking people. The neighborhood just went up and up and up. Oh but yeah you really see its based more on economy and who’s who and that’s kind of the suburb you live in. The blue-collar auto industry workers are out in Westland and Grand Rapids, not Grand Rapids, Garden City and Taylor. White collar is Northville and Novi, Birmingham. The Doctors and professionals typically live in Rochester and West Bloomfield. Yeah it’s all rally weird. And Grand Rapids, it’s no like that. Not like that at all. So its very different moving out here. Ah I don’t know how I got on that topic. But this kind of thing with discrimination, one thing, I don’t even want to say it because a lot of people disagree but I have had a lot of young male professors talk about it. Not in this department at all, here its very open, very nice, nobody cares. But anthropology as a total as a whole you to like these national meetings and stuff, and Anthropology has gone feminized. At these meetings maybe its 2 to 1 female to male. You’ll go to these talks and I will be the only guy. Its all women and it really hasn’t affected me but I’ve know other young Page 10 �men who I’ve talked to amongst the young male professors. Little bit of what’s called masonry has slipped in. Where you know misogyny is hating women, masonry it hating men. Where it has just become so feminized. But you see this little masonry, male hating, moving in. And its never been me because I have been careful about what I say. But it is hyper liberal, politically. To the point where its annoying me. Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: But if you start saying stuff that doesn’t fit that liberalism and liberalist, you get gunned down, I mean you can get gunned down hard. And you see a little bit of discrimination, I mean its pretty funny. When people talk about that in academics, but the counter argument is, you go to one of these conferences and everyone is a liberal, you go to a conference among hedge fund managers and they’re all conservative. You know what I mean. It’s the same damn thing it just depends what field you work in. But yeah there is , I can see discrimination against, politically discrimination against like more conservative to the point where you don’t even hear of conservative anthropologist. Spencer: No Professor Vannier: very pro-capitalist anthropologist is kind of a no, no. you know what I mean? And its really weird, really different. I was at this one talk, where it was on Haiti, that’s why I was there. And this one woman was talking about how, she wasn’t saying it but it was exactly what she was talking about. These people, she was working in urban Haiti and under Duvalier the totalitarian dictator, there was a political hierarchy. And if you were like a poor person working and you needed something done and you would go to one of duvale’s lower ranking military guys and you would talk to him and you would try to get this done. If he was going to help you he would go to the next higher up, which would go to the next higher up in the chain. And they would eventually get it done if they decided to do that. Now there’s no Duvalier, it’s a perfect free democracy so there is none of that. So if you need something done what do you do? You don’t get it done and that’s the end of it. So these people are bitching like we want our dictator back. We could get things done with the dictator. And this lady was saying this at this conference, and holy crap, people were pissed. I didn’t raise my hand or say anything. After the talk I went up to her and talked to her and said I know exactly what you are talking about. But when I was there violence was bad. Well the guy that changed my money, right when I left, someone else came up and said give me all your money and just boom hit him right in the head. That never would have happened under Duvalier. Under the high point of Duvalier in like the 60s there was no crime and no crime is everywhere. if you walk down the street you can get shot. If you go walking down the street you can get kidnapped. And people would talk about under Duvalier that you follow the rules. Follow the rules and you have a perfectly peaceful happy life. Now we have all these civil rights and freedoms and you can’t even walk down the street. But still the point is that the women at the conference started saying that and it didn’t fit in that liberal you know and it was really rough. It was pretty funny. Yeah but being a young man a young male conservative in anthropology. Like I said not at the department level not here. Page 11 �Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: but you know these big conferences that engage the discipline, those people are for real. And even anthropology there are people studying around the world. I don’t know the exact figures what percentage at these big conferences is white people but its probably like 80 percent maybe 85 percent. So you have all these white people still talking about the poor black Africans. You know what I mean. And there’s something weird about that but anthropology knows that and we recognize it but don’t do anything about it. So its different, its been really different. And I think a lot of it comes from me growing up in Detroit where you got a lot of different ethnic families. Growing up in Detroit I think that influenced me heavily. you also have the strong class antagonisms. Where you got the union working shop people versus the might collar management people you know what I mean? And you got these strong notions, my grandfather till the day he died only went to full service gas stations Tyler: Really? Professor Vannier: Yeah because it gives a man a job that how he referred to it, it gives a man a job. You know you’re influenced by that and now its just different. Yeah but moving out here I expected it to be super conservative but its really not that I’ve seen. People say, well maybe I’m not in the right place but like Holland and Zeeland. Tom: Yeah my roommate is form Zeeland he says its like the most conservative place he has ever been. Professor Vannier: Yeah I think its like the most conservative place in Zeeland. I think McDonalds just won the right to open on Sunday like six years ago. I know because of that strong church . but yeah I haven’t really seen it, Grand Rapids has been good but I think Grand Rapids has changed with the healthcare industry. But you still see the conservatives like the Devos’s are very conservative. They give a lot of money to conservative causes. Yeah I just haven’t noticed it around here at all. But civil rights, yeah I don’t really knows how it works in Grand Rapids and Grand valley is so different because it’s no universe. Like at Wayne State you get MLK day off. It’s a big holiday there’s speeches and parades, it’s a big deal because its got that deep history in Detroit for being that end of the line for the Underground Railroad. It’s a big deal, but here not so much. There’s just not that history here you know what I mean? Tom: Yeah. Page 12 �Professor Vannier: There no connection to it. And its very recent people start moving out here but with Detroit they have had people coming in since the 1700s you know different groups and waves and migrants. That how the Arab Americans got here you know we were known for our Arab Americans running the gas stations. In Seattle it’s the Vietnamese in New York I think it’s the Indians. I don’t know. Somebody broke it down to me why that is but I don’t remember what they said, but they were distinct reasons for that. Anyways what else do you want to know? I just rambled on and on off topic. Especially since its being recorded. Spencer: No its all-good stuff, she just. We told we wanted to interview you, you know something that was moving from Detroit you know coming here but um, she wanted someone who knew the history of Grand Rapids and I’m like well that kind of hard because there are so few people that really know the history of grand rapids. Tom: Especially since you just moved here you obviously don’t have a lot of knowledge on that. Professor Vannier: Yeah I know people tell like 15 years ago it was a hellhole that’s what people have told me, but that a shock to me because in Detroit we always think Grand Rapids is a sunny and beautiful city. And I was shocked because I never knew that. I was when I came here and people said “oh god 15 years ago this place was horrible” just like people say you can’t move south of Wealthy. These different neighborhoods you don’t go to, and don’t move to. Because I didn’t know where I was going I mean I needed to find somewhere. I stuck with what they told me like north of wealthy south of 196 east of downtown and they told these specific spots you know. Like that where you want to live and don’t go anywhere else. I started checking around other areas and boy there are some rough areas out there in Grand Rapids. Some rough areas. Tyler: Yeah once you pass this one spot in downtown Grand Rapids its just straight do not go there. Professor Vannier: Yeah, over the river and south I was going through this neighborhood to look at this house we might buy and I turned around. Because it was like hills have eyes because these people were just sitting on porches giving you the look. Like outsider you are not welcome down this street. I was just like okay ill turn around I’m out of here. But yeah I don’t know how different it is in Allendale because you just have students out here. Tyler: Yeah pretty much just straight suburb. Page 13 �Professor Vannier: Yeah I was too wary like what if I rented out a house in the middle of a student neighborhood that would be kind of weird. To see my students in the morning. We could all commute together. But yeah definitely not a good idea. This kids having a huge house party next door and he invites me over, ha no I don’t think that’s really a good idea. So I live more mid town now, that’s where I found my house. We are in walking distance of downtown, its kind of nice. Right by Martha’s Vineyard. When I first moved here everyone was like Martha’s Vineyard, and it’s a party store. I was like what’s the big deal? You know there not many grocery stores where I live. It’s a different spot , Grand Rapids is very different from Detroit . Very, very different from Detroit. In Detroit anywhere is, like everything is near you but everything is far away. Takes you half an hour to get anywhere because Detroit is so huge. Here you know everything is so close together because you are right here. You know what I mean? It just a smaller city. Professor Vannier: Buts it’s nice I can’t wait for summer time; see how it works. Are there any books, articles, films, speeches, newspapers, performances that influence your thinking about race and ethnicity? Spencer: Yeah that was the question from her. Professor Vannier: Yeah in Detroit. The only thing I can tell you, what happened, when was this it? About two years ago, it really gave me such pride in the city of Detroit. Basically, you know the big thing with the Muslim community and in Detroit that’s not a big deal. No body cares in Detroit if you’re Muslim nobody cares, nobody cares, Orthodox Jew, nobody cares, you know, black white, nobody cares. As long as your working you know it’s more of a class thing you know its, nobody cares. Elsewhere in America people really care about this stuff. That woman running for senate in Nevada, we have to stop Dearborn. And all of Dearborn looked up and was like what the hell did we do? Where we come from? She was worried about Sharia Law being implemented in Dearborn so the Mayor of Dearborn, Jock O’ Riley this Irish guy, I don’t think Sharia laws going on hear lady you have to figure out. But, we always get these groups coming up here from, outsiders, coming up to Detroit and trying to cause trouble. And this one group, like that guy from Florida, you’ve ever seen that pastor with the big bushy mustache? He’s always up in Detroit, we hate so much. Because the attitude of, we can kill each other, that’s fine, no outsiders. You can’t come here and cause trouble because then we all ban together, against the outsiders. Everybody hates that pastor, you’re not going to change and he’s going to whip up the people of Detroit you know to realize that Sharia, no, no your not. We hate you. Professor Vannier: But, this one group, it was like two years ago. I m thinking of an incident that made me think about ethnicity and race and how it works in Detroit. Because of the cars, were more based on class than anything else and where you are in the industry. Blue collar, white, middle management, upper white collar. That’s more important. But, um there’s this group from Tennessee, they’re going to come up here, you know southern Tennessee, they’re going to protest Sharia law and the Muslims and shit like Page 14 �that. Um they came up, it was about two years ago, and it was on the news. They came up here and they were going to set up, they had hotels for three weeks. The first morning they were going to protest a mosque, you know and you know what their thinking, there going to intimidate you know little Muslim kids and Muslim women. But, they didn’t realize, when they got here, was that mosque, that they were going to protest at five in the morning, because the call to prayer, five in the morning, was next door to the mosque founded by, Louis Fericon, Black Muslims, who are a completely different group of people than Arab Muslims. So you had this, you know Black Muslim, you know Malcolm X, Black Muslim, its still a, the first mosque ever and that group of people I knew one of them, I knew a Black Muslim who was an archeologist and she was super cool. Her name was Allison, but um her Black Muslim name was Sultana X because they’re all X. You can just see how it works, you know Malcolm X, she was Sultana X. You give your name an X because your not taking your slave masters name, you this strong thing. The Mosque that they were protesting, you know all these white people from Tennessee show up at five in the morning while all these little Arab kids trying to get into this mosque and next door was the Black Muslim mosque. Do you think that, O my goodness, it was awesome, that these just huge, huge black dudes just come pouring out of there. Know that there was no violence, but they just got all up in their face. I remember distinctly this black Muslim woman where this one Tennessee guy like aren’t you concerned about Sharia law, right in front of one of the huge black dudes, I m going to Sharia law up your ass if you don’t get out of here. They were suppose to be here for three weeks, they lasted forty-five minutes. They went running back with their tails between their legs. And I was so happy with Detroit, do they give a crap that you are Arab and that they were black, no. And it was, it was in Hamtramck, so diverse. Where you got this Ukrainian family that was furious cause they were woken up over the whole thing at five in the morning you know I don’t know who these people are from Tennessee, go away. But it just yeah that race, that ethnicity really just didn’t matter when outsiders are involved. It matters inside where you get trouble, but it doesn’t matter outside. When outsiders come in, we all ban together, were like go away, we don’t want you here we can kill each other. Professor Vannier: Well know that I m thinking about it, I learned this while I was at Wayne State. In like the Arab-American community, ethnicity matters, there’s a hierocracy of ethnicity. I know Yeminis’ are at the bottom and their considered kind of poor backwards. In Detroit they’re considered the white trash, if I may, of the Arab community. Where you got the, there’s no Saudi, but you got the Lebanese, the Iraqi Chaldeans a more at the top, followed by the Jordanians, then the Syrians. We don’t have a lot of Iranians I don’t know how exactly it breaks down, but you have a lot of Lebanese. I knew a lot of Lebanese they’d tell me, yeah were at the bottom, and I was like how does that work. I never knew that. You know in America we like lump them all together, where they see themselves as very, very low. That ethnicity really, really matters. I go, God that’s weird, but if one of them came out here you know you wouldn’t look at them as Lebanese, their Arab-American. You know, no one would care, they belong in that big group where they get along where there’s that strong ethnic rankings, ethnic rankings. I bet if you’re from Africa it would be the same way. Where you are form Africa would matter in that population, you know what I mean. We’re all looking at them like, their African you know, but to them it’s a big deal. So it’s different, very different in Detroit. Page 15 �Professor Vannier: Detroit’s got really different race relations than other places in uh in America. It’s all the auto industry, and the factories and everyone coming over here to work in the auto industry. It’s all the auto industry. It’s more class based. Out here I don’t know how it works. Professor Vannier: I don’t know how Grand Rapids does it. I think it’s too new, like the health care industries too new. I know since I’ve been here they’ve opened up Davenport University, opened up downtown, Buffalo Wild Wings opens up this Friday, like holy crap. The Grand Rapids art fair or that art prize is a huge event. I’ve never been, being in Detroit we hear all about it you know you got to go to the art prize, what’s going on at the art prize, you got to go to the art prize, what’s going on at the art prize, you know what I mean cause it’s a huge event. And everybody’s so like you’re so lucky to move to some place like Grand Rapids, I thought God it must be a beautiful place. And I got here, a guy kills lots of people you know, its like O my God are you serious. And it was a joke when we were looking around for house, my wife and I were like were not aloud to go south of wealthy, lets go check it out. We went like two blocks in, and at one corner there was three cop cars. Maybe we shouldn’t be here and forever its burned in my mind, like don’t go south of wealthy. So it’s so weird, so weird, and just very different. Professor Vannier: Where you can go like a mile and it changes, where in Detroit you can go miles and miles and miles and it won’t change. Just suburbs’ as far as the eye can see, you know just single-family homes as far as the eye can see. It’s just suburban America, metro Detroit. But, it’s different because the auto industry, Oakland county, it was before the recession, Oakland county was the third richest county in America, behind Orange, the OC, and uh a county in Connecticut where all the hyper rich New Yorkers’ live. Boom, boom, Oakland County, and it is how we support four sports teams. You know what I mean. Where other cities can’t, we can because we have so much money. The suburbs have all the money, you know what I mean and they can support four different teams in four different buildings, the only city to do that. Four winning teams, think about it. Or if the pistons got good, where we got the Red Wings, the Tigers could go for it all this year, the Lions are starting to emerge, and we support all four teams. How do you do that? Not in New York doesn’t do that, LA has what, they don’t have football, two basketball teams, two baseball teams. And yeah we sell out our games. And its really weird, people, people don’t consider that when they look at Detroit, people don’t consider that. And its all that wealth created by the auto industry. That’s why Mitt Romney’s screwed, people are still pissed and he’s trying to twist the message, good luck dude, good luck. There still pissed at him over that. But, yeah I don’t know the history of Grand Rapids enough to know how it works. Spencer: Yeah I think that’s fine because we told her we wanted to get your side from Detroit and kind of a little bit, we knew that it wasn’t going to be like, you know how she wanted it, but she said that’s fine. Professor Vannier: You know you can always look up Grand Rapids yourself, too. But, yeah you know Detroit its all the auto industry, all the auto industry. I don’t know if I m going to get into it, but how the ghetto was created in Detroit. How Detroit became that, the way that the inner city, hard core, super big black populations. Were the blackest city in America, it’s changing, slowly, but we are. And you know Page 16 �it’s everyone coming to work in the auto industry, but you know by the time they got here the auto industry had already left. So they go down to the suburbs. There’s no jobs, no nothing, auto industry went to the suburbs because there’s more land available to build factories. All the people already working in the auto industry followed, the people coming in, were stuck. And that’s boom, where you get like that inner city poverty. And know it’s all moving back in, all coming back in. Led by again Mike Ilitch, Quicken Loans guy, Dan Gilbert that’s his name, is leading the charge. Yeah all moving back into the city, because all the suburbs are all too built up, too expensive now. It’s like a life cycle, you know it’s like a city life cycle. See the suburbs will be bad, probably within twenty years and the city will be where it’s at. Yeah so it’s all based on that and those race relations, you know where you sit in that hierarchy of the factory and stuff like that. It’s different, very, very different look. But how it’s going to change in Grand Rapids, I have no idea. Spencer: Well uh I think that’s good. Professor Vannier: Is that good? Tyler: Yeah. Professor Vannier: Did I say enough? Spencer: If we come up with anything else we’ll let you know. But, yeah I think that’s definitely good. Professor Vannier: Yeah if you come up with any other questions let me know. I love talking about this stuff. I taught a class on it. That’s why I know so much about it. I know enough there and it just drives me nuts when people just hate on Detroit. And it’s just like do you realize we invented the middle class. We invented unions, we invented all of that. First, stop light, first paved roads. You know first sold foundation, black middle class was in Detroit. All so much came out of Detroit that people just don’t recognize. I mean it all started here. And you see so many people from Detroit, Malcolm X, Madonna, The White Stripes have moved back. Who just moved in that they were talking about on the news, you ever heard of the band Flocking Molly? Why the hell they came to Detroit I have no idea, but the two main members just moved into Detroit. Moved into those neighborhoods, they moved into Palmer Woods, which is a different area. But, those super hyper rich houses in the middle of kind of a bad area, they just moved there. Why, have no idea, but that’s where they live know. I think its because theirs such an emerging uh artist community in Detroit. Where you got artist film makers know, you got all sorts of stuff going on and its all underground. Super underground, but it’ll emerge, it’ll emerge, where know you got like big, like right now the Detroit Fashion Show. It’s not very big, but a lot of fashion designers are starting to get involved because they’re seeing in like ten years Detroit Fashion Show might be where it’s Page 17 �at. So you see that like people are trying to get in now, you know what I mean. Cause they just see, New York will always be king, always be king, but Detroit’s going to matter in a little bit. We got all these different things happening. So it’s cool. You should go there sometime. Check out the different restaurants. Tom: Yeah I mean I’ve been to Detroit a few times, several times, but sporting events mostly. Professor Vannier: Yeah and it’s weird amongst the older generations you still see the segregation were uh you see uh people that were born and raised two miles from the city have never stepped foot in it because its just an evil awful place, you know what I mean. You got though, because you know we still were one of the most racially segregated places and we went through a lot of battles and how to you know keeping people out from moving into the suburbs. But, know it’s much, much less now. But, those older generations still see it, still just hate Detroit, you know you grew up in like Royal Oak, you know what I mean, you live three miles from the city even though will never come back, never ever, ever go back because they see it’s that culture of terror. Your going to get shot the second you step foot, no your not, there’s nobody there. You know not enough people to shoot you. So yeah you still see it, so still I don’t want to make it sound like it’s all class based theirs still a lot of racism, but it’s usually mostly older generations. Amongst the younger generations that grew up there go to Detroit all the time. That’s who is moving in. Yeah so you see it changing amongst generations, but interesting stuff. You can check it out. Tom: Like I’ve been to like uh, Greek town I have dinner there, go to a Red Wings game and then. Professor Vannier: Go to Slows Barbeque down Michigan Avenue. Best restaurant in all of Detroit. Best restaurant there. They just opened another one by Wayne State. Right now its mid town is really happening now where Mo cat is, the DIA is there, Wayne State’s there, because they just built dorms for the first time. So now you got students living there and once you have students living there businesses are going to follow. And they are, your starting to see bars opening up you know. More stuff just geared towards like young twenty something people. Starting to open up and what’s that going to cause. More twenty something’s to move in there, which cause what, more businesses to start and that’s where the whole thing goes. Whole thing heads that direction, you’re seeing it starting to go that direction. Yeah I wonder where they’re going to build the new Joe Louis Arena? They still won’t say and it just might be rumors. Either across from hockey town that’s why he owns those buildings, tear them down, build the new Joe Louis Arena there or where Tiger Stadium used to stand. Tom: The thing is I love where Joe Louis is right now right on the river there. I think it’s awesome. Page 18 �Professor Vannier: Yeah, yeah it makes perfect sense for him. It doesn’t make sense for Detroit cause that river front property is solid property. You could build condos there, overlooking the river. Restaurants and bars overlooking the river, that money, right now we got this stadium sitting right there, you know what I mean. It makes perfect sense for Mike, doesn’t make sense for the city. And what, what he probably will do, he’s not saying I imagine he will do it himself. Where he’ll move Joe Louis somewhere else, tear down the original Joe Louis Arena and build his own, high rise condos, you know what I mean. He’ll make a fortune, he’ll make a fortune off of that and it’s good for him, I mean it’ll be good for Detroit too good for him. But, I know a lot of people that live in Detroit that hate Mike Ilitch, hate Mike Ilitch. But, the big evil guys mad in the room, he owns the bridge, too. He’s the antichrist of Detroit, people hate his guts, owns the train station won’t do anything with it. We threatened him with eminent domain so he said he’s going to fix it up so he took like one side of it and fixed the windows. I fixed it up. There you go. That’s the game we play with Mattie. He lives in Texas, multi-billionaire, lives in Texas. Evil, evil, person and he’s blocking the bridge, the new bridge. Rick Snyder wants the new bridge, all the auto companies want the new bridge, what seems to be the problem here you know. Nope, nope, but O well its good stuff. If you got anymore questions just email me or stop in. END OF INTERVIEW Page 19 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2a1f2341cf08036b1f4efb4f666bd326.mp3 43c028502c40c77ee9b41e3399f2b211 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Vannier_Christian Title A name given to the resource Christian Vannier audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vannier, Christian Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Spencer Tom Description An account of the resource Christian Vannier discusses the civil rights differences between western and eastern Michigan. In particular, he draws on his experiences at Wayne State University and Grand Valley State University. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6b6c94223593ef444dd1fbb5c600040f.pdf 86b056b10ddabb5a21be8d09deca3497 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Christina McAllister Interviewers: Philip Matro, Douglas Brunner and Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/7/2011 Biography and Description Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Transcript VANBIESBROUCK: My name is Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck and we are here today on November 7, 2011 and I am Interviewing Dennis Jones and Christina McAllister about their experience of diversity in West Michigan. Okay, Christina if you would give me some basic information about yourself like where you grew up, your siblings, what’s your family like. MCALLISTER: Okay, I grew up in Lowell, Michigan. It was kind of a farm town. I have six sisters. Both of my parents came from...were married previously, had children, and then had me and my younger sister. So lots of kids, all girls. I was raised in a Christian home, so church and religion and all that was part of my upbringing. My parents were very conservative. VANBIESBROUCK: And what ethnicity are you? MCALLISTER: I am white. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, and when is your birthday? MCALLISTER: May 29, 1989 and what else do you want to know? VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good for now. Okay, Dennis, where did you grow up, what’s your family like? JONES: I grew up in Waukegan, Illinois. It’s pretty much 45 minutes dead north of Chicago. I actually was closer to the Wisconsin border. But I grew up. I am the youngest of four siblings and my older sister, that is my half sister. My mom, she was in a previous relationship, marriage, and that’s where my oldest sister came from and then me and my brother and my other sister are all from my mom and my dad. Waukegan is kind of an interesting place. I lived on the border of two cities, Waukegan and Beach Park. Beach Park is more of a richer area and Waukegan is like, I guess, the poorer side of the city and so I got to see a lot of both areas, but I also grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor from the time I Page 1 �could remember, so he’s been doing that. And my mom grew up in a Christian home. Her dad was a pastor. My dad didn’t grow up in a Christian home. He was kind of in and out of church and kind of doing his own thing and then he was in the Army for awhile and then he got hurt and that is when he came to know Christ. So he hasn’t always been a Christ-follower, but all my life I have known him as one. So I ended up, I mean, I am black if you wanted to know that. VANBIESBROUCK: Thank you. JONES: No problem. So it’s been kind of funny. I have grown up around all different types of ethnicity with being on the border of two cities with Waukegan and Beach Park. And then also being in the public school system for awhile there from kindergarten til sixth grade and then I started going to a public school from sixth grade on and then I was predominantly around Caucasians. And so it’s never been anything new. Huh? MCALLISTER: You went to a private school. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Oh, you said public. JONES: Yeah, public from kindergarten to fifth grade. MCALLISTER: And then private after that. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Okay. JONES: I love you, too. This is my part of the interview. So, yeah, for the most part I have always been around all different types of races so I have never been the type to kind of shy away from any type of race or just somebody else because of skin color. And I grew up, I have mixed cousins. I had a white cousin there for awhile before they got divorced, if that makes sense. Cousin-in-law. So, yeah that’s kind of a little bit of my story. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, what about you Christina? Have you always been around Caucasians cause you’ve been in West Michigan? MCALLISTER: Primarily, yes. I went to a Christian high school that was close to Muskegon, which is a lot of black people. And so we had a few black students there. I was not really good friends with any of them. They weren’t the coolest people to hang out with. But my parents always raised me to never look at color when you’re meeting someone, that you get to know their personality and who they are and it’s their morals and qualities and characteristics that count. So even though I was not exposed to a lot of different races, that was something very important to my parents because it was. VANBIESBROUCK: So growing up, did you guys, like, what did you want your boyfriend or your girlfriend, like what qualities did you want them to have and did you think about dating someone from a different Page 2 �ethnicity? Was that part of what you considered or did you not even think about that when you were younger? MCALLISTER: Well when I was younger I never thought about that. I never expected to be with a black guy because I didn’t really know any black people and I certainly was not attracted to any of the ones that I did know. So, my ideal man was tall, dark and handsome which I ended up getting in a little different form. Just kidding. So I guess the most important thing to me was someone who was hardworking and who was going to love me, who loves Jesus, and those are pretty much the most important things to me. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis? JONES: For me, I think it’s funny because just the way, ever since I grew up I was kind of the more different one out of my family. “You’re so proper, you’re so this, you’re so that” which I thought was funny. And they always would say, “Yeah, you’re not going to marry a black girl, or you’re never going to be with a black girl.” And I was like, “Yeah I probably won’t.” So I always grew up knowing that I probably wouldn’t date someone within my race or, I guess not knowing, but I always just. I never really always looked at other cultures or other ethnicities before a black person or a black girl if that makes sense. And it’s not like I had anything against them, it was just, I don’t know, being wired that way as a kid and always interested in other cultures and other different looking girls. I remember like in fourth grade, I really liked this Asian girl. That was kind of funny. So that’s never really been an issue for me, like race or anything like that. But, like one of the main things I really grew up wanting out of a girl was a Christian-based faith and grounded foundations in that cause that’s where my family came from, very strong Christians, and just good morals and values about herself and someone that wasn’t, my mom said, “Loose.” I never knew what that meant, but she always said it and I guess I know what it means now that I’m older. So, that’s kind of my story of choosing a woman. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, Christina, could you tell me how you guys met? MCALLISTER: Yes. We met at Cornerstone University, which is where we both went to college. Dennis was a year ahead of me. It was my Freshman year, his Sophomore year. In the winter time, Dennis was coaching...not coaching...he was helping out with intramural volleyball. He was reffing. And we had seen each other around and stuff and I guess I thought he was cute for a black guy but I was not really interested in black guys, so I never really thought about dating him but we ended up kind of hanging out one night after or during the volleyball games and we had a lot of fun, we really connected. We just kind of like, our personalities like immediately, like it was just so easy to hang out with him and have fun with him and stuff. I guess that was the first time I was like, “Oh, I actually kind of like you.” VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. JONES: I guess my version is a little different. I remember the first time I met her. We both played sports at Cornerstone and it was near the training room and she was in there and I was getting my ankles taped for practice and she was... I don’t know what she was doing. And I knew her friend Hellen before I knew her and I saw Hellen and I was like, “Oh Hellen, how you doing?” And then in the hallway I met her and she was like, “Oh yeah this is Christina.” And I was like, “Oh hey Christina, how you doing?” And the next Page 3 �day I saw her and I actually forgot her name and I was like, “Oh hey, you. How are you doing?” And then she was like, “My name’s Christina.” And I was like, “Yeah.” And from there I always thought she was a cute girl and stuff like that but at the time she was kind of dating someone else and I was like, “Yeah, whatever.” So I did not really think anything of it and it was a couple weeks later, a month later or something. I don’t know, it was awhile after that and I was just doing the intramural stuff and I was just hyper that night for some reason and then she ended up being around and she ended up falling to my wrath of someone I started talking to. I talked to a lot of people and she ended up being that person that night. I guess it was a blessing? I’m just kidding, it was a good thing. VANBIESBROUCK: So like once you two started getting serious, were either one of you kind of intimidated or scared or nervous about the fact that one of you is white and one of you is black? Or did it just not even cross your mind? JONES: Well for me it didn’t cross mine initially I thought this thing was never going to work out after we had our first couple dates. We both thought we were just like “Alright this isn’t going to work out.” We were really.., the night we met we really had a lot of fun and stuff like that and then when we went on a couple dates it was just like, “Ooo, so..” and that kind of that awkward funk in the air. But as far as being intimidated or anything like that with like race or color, it never crossed my mind initially at all until I guess when I met her family. But that didn’t really bother me. Instead I always, even in high school, I was always the minority so I was always around people of different color and so for me it was easy to just bond and talk to other people and their families. Especially playing sports through high school, always like around my friends’ families, like with my dad being a pastor, it was hard for my mom and him to get out to games and stuff like that or make the long road trips cause they were always involved with church and stuff like that so I always spent a lot of time with my friends’ families or would go over there before practice and hang out with them and their family. So it was always easy for me to get along with a friend’s family, so to speak cause it was just like, “Oh yeah.” It kind of reminds me of high school, so even watching a lot of my friend’s family, like same thing in college with sports and stuff, my family never got the chance to come out a lot, especially being away from home and playing sports. It was always easier to connect with other families cause that was my family at the time, so me meeting her family and being around her never really intimidated me. VANBIESBROUCK: Same for you? MCALLISTER: No, it was very different for me. Dennis was the first black friend I’d ever had and, really, like a genuine friend and so it was really all I actually thought about really was that probably for the first couple months. And I mean I really like Dennis as a person and it obviously didn’t stop me from dating him but it was something I was very like unsure about. I don’t know, I was just curious, because, something I really hadn’t hardly been exposed to at all. So, I stuck with Dennis for the first couple dates cause I wanted to kiss a black guy. JONES: That is exactly what she told me. MCALLISTER: It’s really true. I’ve come this far, I might as well, get to the date where we kiss and... JONES: She told me that after we had been together for awhile. It must have been a good kiss. Page 4 �MCALLISTER: I had a lot of encouragement from my friends and people who knew Dennis that, “Oh, it’s a good thing and it doesn’t matter about color, and all those things will work out.” So all the concerns I guess that I had initially I had a chance to work through and process on my own. And then on my own and kind of with my friends and people who knew Dennis. So by thetime a couple months in when I was really...it was starting to get serious, I knew that I wanted to do it and was committed and that color and stuff doesn’t really matter and those things that could be problems or something in the future, even if they ended up being a problem, I was willing to, I guess, sacrifice or work through it or whatever. . JONES: For me it was just like “Hey, let’s do this thing.” I didn’t like.., nothing crossed my mind about like how people perceived me or if we got looks or anything like that cause it was just normal to be for some reason. Just cause of the way I grew up, the people I was around, the school I went to when I was in high school, being a private school, being primarily around white people and a few other races. But, I mean for me, I guess it was normalized for me at a young age so it just never really bothered me. VANBIESBROUCK: So what was your family’s response to each other or to you? Or their attitude? JONES: My family didn’t care. They were like, “Oh, nice. Bring her around.” “Alright, if I can. Kind of busy.” I don’t know. It didn’t... my family, it wasn’t an issue, it wasn’t a big issue at all. VANBIESBROUCK: Was that partially because you already had people in your family who had already been with white people before? JONES: Yeah, that too. Plus our family background, it’s just always been, “It doesn’t matter,” especially my mom’s side of the family. My dad, a little bit different, because he’s from down south. But with him it was no big deal. It doesn’t matter, so I guess with my immediate family it was like, “Oh, that’s cool. Make sure she’s the right one, make sure you’re looking for all the right things and not just dating her to date her.” They were more worried about the person than the color. VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. Christina? MCALLISTER: My family’s response was a little bit different. Actually it was really surprising to me because of the way my parents had raised me and taught me to be so open-minded to color and to culture and that kind of thing. I waited awhile before I really brought Dennis home. We kind of don’t bring a guy home unless you are serious about him. It is kind of the family rule. So I brought him home and told some of my family I was serious about him. My mom especially definitely had some concerns about us and our relationship. And that was probably the biggest hurdle as far as this stuff goes, with the whole black-white thing that we had to get through. she...this was before she really got to know Dennis, just kind of going off the whole color thing, basically. VANBIESBROUCK: So like a stereotype? MCALLISTER: Yeah, the biggest thing that tripped her up. JONES: Always fighting the stereotype. I’ll tell ya. Page 5 �MCALLISTER: Well it wasn’t really...it wasn’t really concerns like, “I don’t like a black guy.” It was mostly the cultural differences and marriage is tough already and relationships are tough. And you are going to have to think about your kids and what they are going to have to go through. And you have to think about how it is going to put a lot more pressure on your relationship with something that is already tough. And different...just adjustments between coming together and being married and we had only been dating for a few months, so it was like we were jumping to marriage. But that is what we think about long-term. Anyways, so... but she was just if we are coming from two different cultures to try to bring that together and form a family that has a lot more stresses added to just coming t gether and being a family. So those were their concerns initially. And that was really hard because at that time I was preset on dating Dennis and I really loved him and I wanted that to happen. And my mother’s a very stubborn woman, so my dad being the practical one, they both talked to me and said, “Well these are our concerns about it.” And I told them, “I understand that. I think that things are changing. I don’t think things are going to be as tough as you think it’s going to be. Dennis’s background is probably not as different as you think it is.” So just kind of like I guess setting at ease some of their concerns. And then I continued to date Dennis and do that relationship and that was...my mom has the My Way or the Highway policy, so that didn’t really go over well for her, at first. She really thought the longer we were together, the more it was kind of eating at her that this was a bad thing and she was so concerned about all these things. So that was really tough for us because it got to this point where she was just like, “well we don’t approve of this relationship,” and blah blah blah. So we had to get through that. And my response was, “just get to know Dennis because I think you might change your mind.” And that is how my dad responded, of course, because he is the practical one and the other side of it was Dennis. I think it was hard for you to kind of go through that, but Dennis’s attitude was just that he was gonna just show him who he was and try to win them over, I guess. And he did that. And now, my family absolutely loves Dennis and can’t imagine him not being a part of the family. VANBIESBROUCK: So, Dennis, how did you respond or did Christina tell you what her parents were kind of feeling or did you kind of assume? JONES: At first, I didn’t assume at all but then she told me. I was guess I was taken back by it because I had never been in a situation like this. And for me it was like there was not much we could do. It is what it is. And I think I remember telling her... she was...l remember one night she came to me and she was crying, talking about how she was really upset with her mom and I said, “well, it’s okay. I will just prove them wrong.” I think those were pretty much my words. And I said, “it doesn’t matter.” And I said “from what I can see, your family’s great, but it was probably something they never had to deal with before.” And I was like, my family this is not an issue at all. I reassured her that it’s... we don’t really care about color. And my mission was to kill them with kindness and love and be myself. Like me her dad, we got along really well initially and I think him, the way he acted around me and that way he accepted me was kind of the biggest one, always the boyfriend4ather acceptance thing. And that was huge for me. And then for her mom, it was just like it is gonna be a tough one but we can do it. So that one was just a lot of work and I remember... now thinking back to it, I can see that there was times when she was a little more kind of cautious and stuff like that. But now, it doesn’t even matter. MCALLISTER: Now he’s the family favorite. Page 6 �JONES: I am the family favorite which is pretty sweet. Usually they go through a ranking like, “oh, Pat, Dan, Dennis.” And I mean, it’s usually, I’m at the top, so I take the cake. MCALLISTER: The boys have a ranking system. JONES: Yeah, usually as a family. Usually your youngest sister, her boyfriend always comes in last, but we won’t talk about that. But usually I finish at the top. The only reason I am in second right now is because the oldest daughter had kids. MCALLISTER: Can’t compete with the grandkids. JONES: I can’t compete with the grandkids. But I am a damn close second. We usually talk about it sometimes too, me and Pat. MCALLISTER: That is ridiculous. JONES: Pats really fighting hard for the first place but I can’t do anything about the grandkids. Just give it a while til we have our kids, we’ll be in first. VANBIESBROUCK: So for a while it was kinda like they just didn’t know you so they were hesitant, but once they got to know you. JONES: Yeah I think that was the big thing. MCALLISTER: Yes. My dad grew up in West Michigan where there wasn’t a lot of diversity back in the day. And my mom grew up in California where there was a lot of diversity but moved to Michigan when she was probably late twenties early thirties so this a long time ago and things were really different then. So the diversity she got exposed to was kind of more, I mean times were different back then a lot more people were racists and had those kind of thoughts and didn’t accept people and were segregated. So I think that their background and not being exposed to that was the biggest thing that freaked them out. It wasn’t even necessarily because of the way they raised us they were definitely always you shouldn’t think about people’s color it was definitely something that they were always adament about but I think it was when it actually like happened and came to be that they were like whoah, now what. So it just took a while but I think once they kind of got used to the idea and yeah get to know dennis so. VANBIESBROUCK: Were your friends kind of the same way? MCALLISTER: I think our friends were.. VANBIESBROUCK: Well I mean most of our friends knew Dennis before from school. MCALLISTER: Yeah most of my friends did know Dennis before JONES: I think I knew most of your friends before I knew you. Page 7 �MCALLISTER: Yeah. I mean everyone was really accepting, as far as friends. I don’t feel like anyone like in our age group has ever been weird about it or concerned or anything it’s always like “oh yeah we love you guys!”. So that was good, lots of support that way which is good. VANBIESBROUCK: And your grandparents were the same way? JONES: Well my grandma was the biggest one, she didn’t care who she was. My grandma was like as long as she knows Christ, your fine with her. If you didn’t get out of there so my grandma never really, she was the biggest one, she never saw color ever since I have known her she never cared. Her biggest thing was, like I was saying we have a huge Christian background, it was Christ your good in her book or even if you didn’t it’s not like she hated you but she definitely let know Jesus was the way type of deal. She would sit out on her porch and talk to any and everybody that came by, like all the kids in the neighborhood loved her, she was that type of lady. So color was never an issue she I mean she worked for a white lady for a while if I’m not mistaken, like cleaning her house and stuff like that. So it was not like slave labor or anything like that it was definitely like they were good friends and she just helped her out like that. One of her best friends I can remember was a white lady. VANBIESBROUCK: So like your parents and grandparents are they like the main reason why your so open to different ethnicities or is that just how you are as a person? JONES: I think it’s a little bit of both. I mean, my family has always told me I was different when I was younger ha and they still tell me I’m different like they don’t understand me. Just because I’m a lot of off the wall stuff but just personality stuff they don’t understand, like if you put me in the middle of a forest with a bunch of Indians and ask I could probably start talking to them about a bunch of stuff haha that’s just the way I am. So they don’t understand where I got that from because my dad is a fairly quiet man and my morn is I don’t know she is kind of shy when she meets new people and stuff like that but for me its just like whatever. I don’t know it’s a combination of the way I was raised and developing into a new person. MCALLISTER: My dad’s grandma is really quiet, she doesn’t say much but she has always liked you. JONES: Yeah she has always been nice to me, she never really said anything. I don’t know I’ve always been, unless she hates me and I don’t know about it. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she is really quiet, she doesn’t really say a lot but she has always been nice to Dennis. JONES: She gives me hugs. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she likes Dennis. You’ve never met my grandpa. JONES: No I’ve never met your mom’s dad. MCALLISTER: He married a very southern woman, remarried. My grandma died and then he remarried this lady and I know she doesn’t approve of our relationship. She has never met Dennis and neither has he but she likes to speak her southern piece about it. She’s kind of crazy. But um we had a family Page 8 �reunion this last summer and Dennis met my great uncles and aunts, so my grandpa’s brothers and sisters, were all there and then my uncles and aunts. Everybody like loved Dennis so, even my great uncles and aunts, we talked about it like they are from anothergeneration they are all in their gosh sixties seventies, no they have to be older than that now. JONES: yeah seventies. MCALLISTER: At least seventies some of them are in their eighties I think. So totally different generation and we talked about it like it might be a little weird. JONES: And my response was yeah I don’t care haha. MCALLISTER: Yeah. but they loved him, he was there for the first like day or two and then first two days and then he left because he had his own family reunion and the next day when Dennis was gone they were all like Dennis is so great we really like him blah blah blah. My great aunt invited the two of us up to her house in Canada so ha were gonna go up there sometime. But yeah, I was actually really surprised with how accepting they were. Not that I would expect them to be different but just that generations are different and sometimes you never know, people have these strange opinions. VANBIESBROUCK: So like when you two were talking to your parents about each other what was the first thing you told them like Christina did you tell your parents like the first thing you told them was it Dennis is black or was that like the last thing? MCALLISTER: No I actually didn’t really say that at all. I kind of thought that they would just be like that they wouldn’t care at all. And that’s probably me being a little bit naive because of the fact that I never had any black friends and here I am bringing home this black guy, yeah I really like I want to date him haha. They of course are probably going to be like wait at minute. so no obviously I don’t even think I told them that at all and then when I brought him home, they were like oh he’s black ha ha. JONES: Yeah my family just assumed she was a different race. MCALLISTER: Hahaha JONES: They were just like, they knew like ah she’s white huh, and I was like yeah type of deal. But it wasn’t a big thing it was kind of like family joking and fun but it wasn’t a big thing. They were happy, they were pretty happy. They have never said anything about race or anything like that. But yeah, they literally just assumed. “Hey morn I’m dating somebody”, “Oh alright she’s white huh”, “Yup” haha. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it frustrating for either one of you, or Dennis for your family that Christina’s family kind of had reservations about it? JONES: umm VANBIESBROUCK: Or about you two? Page 9 �JONES: I actually, it was kind of one of those things I decided to keep to myself. I didn’t want my family to pre-judge her family. Unless they asked I said something, my morn asked and I think that was one of my biggest, or my mom’s biggest concerns, was them being accepting of me. And she was kind of like, well my mom is kind of one of those conspiracy theorists I like to think. My dad was just like alright make the right choices, see you later. My mom she will talk to me for 15 hours about the same thing. I think her biggest thing was well how those things can go. Something happens with you and her and they will blame it on you and try and go after you and I’m like mom it’s not like that at all haha, oh my gosh she formulates all of these crazy things, its kind of funny but ridiculous at the same time. And that was just her biggest concern, if anything big ever happened like what would they do, would they kind of hold a grudge against me not only because I did something to their daughter their baby but it was a black man that did it. So that was my mom’s biggest concern and I was like ahh it’s not that big of deal. I’m not stupid I’m not gonna do anything crazy. If anyone breaks up she will be the one who breaks up with me. I don’t know why I thought that haha but that’s just the way I thought of it. VANBIESBROUCK: So like in the beginning of your relationship would you guys say you, was like harder because her family was kind of hesitant or was it just one of those things where its something they thought it might be hard whereas a Christian family might think it’s hard to dat a Catholic but you get over it. Was it the same thing? JONES: In a way. I think it was mainly for me, her parents. I wanted to make sure her parents were ok with me and winning her parents over. Her sisters were, they just didn’t care. They were like oh yeah he’s great type of deal, and so for me it was just her parents. I just wanted acceptance of the parents. MCALLISTER: I mean it was hard for a while. But they did get over it and pretty quickly. And my family really does love Dennis now. VANBIESBROUCK: So is it weird going to a white household for a while, have you learned any new traditions or like weird things that your family doesn’t do? JONES: Haha yeah there are a few, I can’t name them, but there was one thing I don’t know. Like just, I guess Thanksgiving we call it “soul food” haha. We call it dressing, what you guys call stuffing. And I remember my mom, like parents told me “your like a chameleon you can take on the attitude and shape of anybody your around. If your around Mexicans you will somehow try and speak Spanish. Or if your around white people how to talk like a white person and be like a white person. If you’re around black people, you may not know how to talk like a black person but how to sound like, bionics, be around them and how to hold a conversation”. VANBIESBROUCK: Like fit in. JONES: Yeah. And then so I don’t know I went home and like unconsciously I was like yeah I’ll get some stuffing and my mom goes “what did you just say”, I was like “ah I meant dressing sorry”. Haha like I know it’s a taboo but just simple things like that with food and stuff. I don’t think like cultural things. I think this is funny, like, face towels-we use face towels all the time at home to wash up and take showers and stuff like that and every time I’m like you don’t use face towel? No I don’t need a face towel why would I need a face towel to wash up, a face towel is for your face. That’s kind of one Page 10 �different thing, and they are like you picked that up off those white people. I’m like no I didn’t I’ve always been that way! Anyway. I think that for me is just kind of the funny things. VANBIESBROUCK: Any for you? MCALLISTER: Yeah. The first time I went to Dennis’s house it was really crazy. I couldn’t understand what anyone was saying like the whole time I was there. Well his dad has a really deep, southern accent so he is like impossible to understand, well he was at first. JONES: I’m like the only one that can understand my dad. Most people, like my brothers and sisters, after he comes back from being down south they can’t even understand him. But for me it’s like oh yeah I’ll go get that for you and they are like what did he say? So I knew my dad would be a tough person for her to understand in the first place anyway. MCALLISTER: Yeah but , it was definitely like a lot more of a culture shock than what I thought it was going to be because like spending time with Dennis I knew his habits and things like that about him but he is like a white black man and I didn’t really realize his family is not that way haha. VANBIESBROUCK: How long had you been dating Dennis before you met his family? MCALLISTER: Four months. So, gosh I can’t remember. Yeah it was hard to understand them, they always liked to talk about past experiences and like family stuff. They have all these like family stories and secrets, not like secrets but jokes or whatever. And so I like didn’t say very much at all the first time I was there and um, and then we went to let’s see, we went to their church and that was really crazy haha. Um I had never been to a black church before and it was very interesting. It was really loud, everyone was singing and dancing. Lots of amen’s and thank you Jesus, lots of that kind of thing. I had never seen his dad talk like that before. JONES: Yeah my dad is super quiet at home, doesn’t say much, but when he talks its like very profound and so wisdom filled and your like man! And then when he gets in front of the pulpit he will talk for hours and hours upon end and your like shut up I want to go home and watch the bears game. Sometimes by brother and I will sit in the back and kind of give him the cut throat like you need to stop. MCALLISTER: Ha well it’s not just talking he like goes on rants. JONES: Yeah he takes a lot of rabbit trails when he’s preaching so she was like I didn’t understand a word or I didn’t understand the message at all. MCALLISTER: Yeah it was very different. I was used to like teaching out of scripture he was just going on. VANBIESBROUCK: Or like an outline to follow? MCALLISTER: Yeah, which I later learned that’s what they do in their bible study. They do that before but the service we went to, I don’t know, was like a praise and worship service. That’s what it seemed like to me. Page 11 �JONES: A lot of church in my family growing up, they have so many different services I can’t even remember them all its crazy. MCALLISTER: So that was probably the craziest thing that I experienced first. JONES: That was my biggest fear, was taking her to church with my family. I still am like I don’t want you going to church with my family) don’t want you to like run away haha. Seriously. MCALLISTER: (didn’t’ run away, I was clapping and singing and I got really into it! JONES: I still am afraid to take her home, to church and we’ve been dating three and a half four years. VANBIESBROUCK: So that’s not the type of church that you would want to go to as a couple? Or Dennis you just like white people’s church better? JONES: For me, it doesn’t bother me I just want her to be comfortable because I’ve seen everything being in a black church. So I think for her (just want to see her comfortable and I can pretty much fit in with any scene. I like the church that we go to now. MCALLISTER: We go to my family’s church now. JONES: That was funny, I was terrified to bring her home. I was like man I don’t know what my family’s going to do, they are going to embarrass me. (think that was my biggest thing rather than race I was like I hope they don’t say anything stupid. VANBIESBROUCK: Did they make jokes about Christina being pale or anything? JONES: My mom made a couple of jokes. MCALLISTER: Yeah actually the first time I was there they did. It was funny. JONES: My family is very like joking, like we make fun of each other all the time. I think that’s typical with a lot of black families. That’s kind of how we express our love. We just make fun of each other haha. Like me and my brother, we never really tell each other I love you but it’s kind of one of those things . Me and him always grew up making fun of each other, my sister too. Like I’ll call her and be like “hey what’s up ugly how you doing”, she’s like “oh hey stupid” its just like oh ok like understood that we love each other. Even bringing in the way I grew up, that was kind of one of the tougher things because my family doesn’t really express a lot of love and we’re not like super touchy feely. And that was actually kind of the way I was raised and seeing my dad express his love for my mom and that was tough because that’s what I grew up around and thought it was normal, apparently it’s not. I mean not that it’s not normal but a different way of, like I would show her my love through just acts and stuff like that. MCALLISTER: Slapping me on the shoulder ha. JONES: Yeah and uh for her it was like “why don’t you tell me you love me, why don’t you do this for me, or take care of that for me”? And I’m like what I thought I was showing you I loved you. So I think it was, Page 12 �just being around that too growing up, was kind of one of our tougher hurdles. Learning the love language. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it, I mean is Christina like anybody else you’ve dated before? JONES: No actually. I don’t think I ever really haha. MCALLISTER: Normally he is really into chubby blonde girls haha. JONES: That’s not true at all! Couple blunders in my dating career but I got a couple lookers in there. I’ve had some good-looking girls, maybe not dated them but hahah but it’s not a big deal. You haven’t had quite the greatest dating career in your path either have you. MCALLISTER: I’ve had lots of great guys. JONES: A lot of questionable decisions there huh. No but I forgot the question haha. VANBIESBROUCK: Ha, if she is like anyone you’ve dated. JONES: Ah no she’s not. Totally different from any other girl I’ve dated. VANBIESBROUCK: Personality-wise? JONES: Yup, personality-wise, yeah real different. And I think that’s what drew me to her. I was like oh she might be a keeper. And then haha, also the also her faith and everything. That was something that really kind of got me. My mom was like “if you find a girl that believes in God and trusts in God that’s really rare in this world now a days and she’s like if you find a girl that, you need to keep her”. And I remember those words. And I remember one time I was home for a holiday and my uncle who, which I thought was kind of funny, was kind of a ladies man and like kind of a player/dog. And he was just a dog, dirty dog, but I love him. He was like “well son I’ll tell you one thing, if you find a girl that can make you change then that’s a girl you need to keep” and I remember those were two big things that made me really search in her to make to be like is this someone I want to keep in my life and marry. And I still can say I hold true to those words and she has definitely lived up to those. MCALLISTER: Aww JONES: Oh geez now I’m getting mushy haha. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis is nothing like a guy you’ve dated before? MCALLISTER: no not really. He is a lot different I guess, there are certain traits that are similar to certain guys but I guess overall in general he is pretty unique. obviously I’ve never dated a black guy before so that was new haha. I guess the things that I liked about hirn was that he was always really friendly, outgoing, really easygoing, really easy to get along with. Probably, the guys I dated before were a lot rnore emotional and like crabby. JONES: She liked pretty boys and skinny Jean type guys Page 13 �MCALLISTER: No I didn’t JONES: Yes you did. You liked the emo kids. MCALLISTER: That’s not ever true. I never even dated an erno guy. I dated a country bumpkin, and an athlete. That’s pretty much it. JONES: doesn’t count as an athlete. Hahahaha. MCALLISTER: He doesn’t count as an athlete. He doesn’t count as anything. I didn’t even put his narne on this recording. JONES: She can ‘X” it out. Hahahaha MCALLISTER: anyways, yeah I forgot the question. VANBIESBROUCK: So I guess like, you guys’ personalities kind of trump the fact that, that you are different ethnically? JONES: Yup MCALLISTER: Yup definitely. JONES: for me yup. MCALLISTER: yeah. JONES: I would have to say, that is definitely the biggest part for me that was the biggest one. MCALLISTER: Our families met this summer. JONES: Yeah thats wierd that our families actually met for the first time after, well being so far away and, being 4hrs. away is always tough to try and coordinate something, yeah. MCALLISTER: Both busy. JONES: Yeah are families met for the first time this summer it was, I though it went pretty well. MCALLISTER: Yeah it went great. My ah, JONES: My mom was kind of quiet, kind of I thought. My Brother does, he always talks. He did a lot of talking. I kind of wanted him to shut up, but thats fine. You’ve met my brother before. Like before you met my whole family, you met my brother. Cuz he was running track and we went to one of his track meets in Grand Rapids. It was me, you, ted and Hilary. It was, never mind I won’t put that on tape. I was going to say it was the first time I farted in front of you. Hahahahaha. MCALLISTER: oh yeah, umm. JONES: It prolly caught it. Hahahaha Page 14 �VANBIESBROUCK: Probably. MCALLISTER: No it went, it went really good. I think we both were a little bit nervous for. I mean my side of the family with our history and then. Even, even with Dennis’ family, like his mom is pretty quiet and can be kind of, I don’t know, introverted I guess. VANBIESBROUCK: Like she knew how your family felt about it? MCALLISTER: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know that that was really a concern at that point. JONES: I don’t know, My mom is kind of, I, I don’t know. MCALLISTER: maybe. JONES: It could have been. I don’t know. I can say that my mom kind of does have a tendency not to forget things. That could have been it. But my dad he’s just naturally quiet so he wasn’t going to talk anyway, unless. MCALLISTER: He, he was talking. JONES: but yeah, yeah he was talking. I think he is more worried about if, His biggest thing is if people can understand him. He, He’s got a little bit of a slur. When he grew up, he had a slight speech impediment, and his brothers kind of had to translate for him alot. So he, he is very conscious of the way he talks and stuff like that. So my dad is a little more quiet unless he is over the pulpit which it should be reversed. Um and then my mom she is usually very outgoing. But she is very shy when she meets new people or is in a new setting and she is. First of all she is deathly terrified because she thought we were going to go out on a boat and she hates the water. And she was terrified that they had dogs, and she hates dogs. And I’m like you are ridiculous. Like my dad he doesn’t care about dogs, but my mom is “Oh my gosh they got dogs can you ask them to put them away”. I was like mom, you’re going to visit over to someone’s house are you going, Luckly, I know them well enough to where they would do this for us and I was like I’ll ask ‘em. And so for me I was like you have all these reservations and questions, ugh. I think they briefly met at my graduation, but it wasn’t like for an extended period of time. Everybody was kind of out in their own worlds. So. But. VANBIESBROUCK: Didn’t your mom say something that was.. MCALLISTER: oh yeah (Laughter) First of all, what did she get, yeah she got orange pop, I told her, she was asking what, well do they like to eat? What do they like to do? And I told them like, Dennis’ mom don’t do a lot of water sports, she’s afraid of the water. She doesn’t like dogs also, so we put the dogs away and all that stuff. And then she’s like what do they like to eat? Well, they eat a lot and they like just about anything but, I was saying a few things that I knew that they liked that we had before, and I was like they like grape drink. I know it’s a stereotype but they really do like it. So she went out and bought orange pop, she didn’t even buy the right thing. And then at dinner she was giving drinks to everybody she’s like “Christina told me that you guys like orange pop”. And I was so embarrassed... JONES: She said “you guys”. I was like aahh. Page 15 �MCALLISTER: I mean, no one was offended but it was funny. JONES: She is very hospitable and nice. And her mom just has a tendency just to say things, and that was just one of those things. That was pretty funny. I was just like “ooohh..’ (laughter) MCALLISTER: My niece and nephew loved Dennis’ mom. They were snuggled up to her for most of the night. JONES: Yeah, Cameron, he was just sleeping. Maddie had a ton and ton of stories for my mom. My mom didn’t understand a word she was saying probably. But... and then she was like “ooh this is the little baby you always talk about.” And I was like yeah, she’s adorable. My mom used to run a daycare so she really loves kids. VANBIESBROUCK: So after they met, did either one of your parents tell you “Oh, I was expecting it to go this way, but it was really great, or...” JONES: To tell you the truth I haven’t really talked to my parents. Or, I’ve talked to them since then, just haven’t asked my parents what they thought. My brother and my sister were like “Oh it was really great I loved it, it was really good to sit down and talk to them and get to know them a little better.” So my brother and my sister were excited and happy about it. I guess I should probably talk to my parents. I think it went good, in my opinion. I don’t know, maybe I’m overlooking stuff. But I thought it was good. Sounds like a business meeting. (laughter) MCALLISTER: Um, no, my parents were good. I think my mom was nervous about... She was nervous about having people over anyways... And I think she was nervous aboutJONES: “My house is a mess, oh my gosh!” MCALLISTER: -Yeah, I mean, impressing them, well not impressing them, but making them feel comfortable and welcome. like a hostess I guess. She’s like that with everybody. But I think because it was Dennis’ family she felt a little more pressure. So, I don’t know. I think it went really well though. My mom said “Oh Dennis’ family is so nice and it was so nice to spend time with them.” That’s pretty much what everyone in my family said. So she invited them back up for another time. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: -For more orange drink... (Laughter) MCALLISTER: Yeah for more orange drink, and for a ride on the lake. Page 16 �JONES: My dad would go, but my mom would just freak out. She’s like “we’re not going on the boat right?” I was like I told you three weeks ago that we’re not going on the boat. I don’t need to tell you again, If do i might take you on the boat just to scare the crap out of you. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So have you guys noticed that whenever you go out on a date or you go hang out with people have you noticed that people treat you different? Or do the people that you see in restaurants and stuff, they just don’t care? JONES: To me, in my perspective, I don’t know about Christina, but to me the people in west michigan... I don’t know, I guess it depends on the area, where you’re at. But most people it doesn’t seem like they really care. I don’t know we’ve never really received any snide remarks, I guess a couple of whoops from black girls. Like “what is he doing with her?” (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: They’re just jealous. JONES: I don’t know but when we’re out, I guess I never really pay attention to people. This is just who I am, I always keep my head down when i walk and i’ll put my head up when i see someone, kind of make eye contact. But, I don’t know. I always keep my head down or look at her when we’re out and walking and stuff like that. And then I think with society and the way we were raised and our generation, it’s normal. So I don’t think a lot of people care. VANBIESBROUCK: Yeah, so you expect it more from older people. JONES: But yeah now i think that even more older people are starting to say “Ahh, what the heck it’s no big deal.” I mean if I went down south I’d probably get lynched... (Laughter) No I’m just kidding, I’m kidding. That was a joke, totally too far, I know. VANBIESBROUCK: What about you Christina? Have you noticed... MCALLISTER: No, I don’t notice those things at all anyways. But , I definitely haven’t noticed anything like that. JONES: I don’t think we’ve ever received like a... VANBIESBROUCK: We’ve had a lot of people like, well, in church, Dennis is the only black guy in our church (laughs). And I was actually kind of nervous about that. Because. Not nervous that it would go badly but nervous that he would feel uncomfortable or awkward. But we had so many people come up to us and like “Hi, so nice to meet you” and whatever. And people who know Dennis now love him. We’re helping out in the youth group now. The leaders are all about him and the kids all love him, I think it’s cool he’s black. JONES: I think it’s funny, the youth retreat we went out on it this weekend. And I think just like being out towards Grand Haven/Spring Lake area there’s not a lot of black people. But all the kids were kinda Page 17 �telling jokes and I tell a black joke and they’re all like (gasp) and I’m like “no it’s okay, you can laugh!” And they’re like “okay!” (laughs) To me honestly I think it’s hilarious when people are really cautious about saying black or african american... I could really care less. I remember like for me, I don’t know why they see it as a challenge and they’re like “Oh yeah, let me go talk to him” (laughter). Like we were just at a wedding and the guy goes “yeah my grandma, she’s kind of racist.” And I go “really? Can I meet her? Like I want to talk to her.” And he’s like “sure but I don’t know...” I was like “I don’t care, I want to talk to her and just see what happens.” Like that’s just really, I guess I kind of see it as a challenge. And (laughs) I don’t know, that’s just kind of my attitude toward everything. Like I mean, to me it’s like I don’t see any reason to put skin color above a person. So, I don’t know. Ever since I’ve been growing up between me and my group of friends we’ve always got racial jokes and stuff like that. Not just about black people and stuff like that but about other races obviously it’s joking amongst friends and stuff like that (laughs). VANBIESBROUCK: So Christina you mentioned how your mom was saying how it would possibly affect your kids. Have you guys talked about that? Or do you think it would even be an issue in the years to come? MCALLISTER: Um, I mean we’ve talked about it, But I don’t think it will be a big issue. I think that the longer we’re together, the less that I see color in Dennis and the more I see just us in our relationship. And those fears just kind of fade away as we’re kind of bringing our lives together and as we’re deciding how we’re going to, as a couple, raise our kids. And i think that’s kind of everyone’s concern is just making sure that we raise them how we wanna raise them and not really worrying about race. Because if we bring them up right then it’s not even going to be an issue. So I guess that’s kind of... We make jokes about, “well what if they marry black kids? Or what if they marry white kids?” (laughs) But , I don’t think it would matter either way for us. JONES: No. I guess to me i kind of see that it is, nowadays, you always see mixed kids. I mean when I was growing up in public school I was always around a ton of mixed kids. you get the looks like “man why are your eyes green and your hair is kinda course like a black person?” (Laughter) Or like, those types of things you wonder. But growing up around it and , seeing it more prevalent, in Hollywood and more now around our age, and once we’re starting to recognize the differences in people... It doesn’t really dawn on me what will my kids think. To me, they’ll fit in just fine. MCALLISTER: People have talked about as mixed kids, do you identify with the black culture or the white culture? I think the cultures are mixing in together a little bit more. And I think our focus is just going to be on raising them in I guess a culoture that we feel is healthy and right and appropriate. And hopefully they won’t identify with... Hopefully they’ll be chameleons like Dennis. That they’ll feel comfortable around anyone and everyone. that they won’t see that. They will just see people. JONES: I think more or less, once you stop focusing on skin color you kind of forget. “Oh yeah I forgot you were black. Or I forgot you were Mexican.” (Laughs) I remember in high school our coach was black but he is married to a white woman and one day we had this huge team sleep over, kind of like a team building thing. And we were going through their house and we were like “Oh yeah,” Like we saw a picture of our coach, our coach was black, and we saw a Page 18 �picture of him and his family and they were all like “Oh, yeah” It was one of those things that dawns on me like it’s one of those things where you really see a person for a person, and not skin color. You really do forget, to me I forget, and I’m like “oh yeah that is right, they really are different than I am.” Skin color-wise. MCALLISTER: I’m a little worried about our kids’ hair. JONES: Yeah she’s always like “You’re gonna have to do their hair, ‘cause I don’t know how to do it.” Like if it’s a boy it’s alright ‘cause I know how to cut hair. I’ll cut his hair right off. MCALLISTER: That’s our biggest concern right now. VANBIESBROUCK: Is hair? (Laughter) JONES: Yeah, I’ll have to teach her the ropes if they come out with coarse hair like black people. I’ll show her how to do it. If they come out with white people hair that’s totally up her alley. MCALLISTER: The poor girls are gonnna be hopeless. JONES: Ah no, my cousins came out with good hair, with white people hair. I don’t know why we say white people or black people hair. fine hair. Non-coarse hair. There ain’t nothing wrong with my hair! (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So do you guys have anything that you would want to say to someone who was against interracial relationships? Or is it kind of like you have to be in one to really understand? JONES: Hmm.. Give it a try. No I’m just kidding. (Laughter) No I guess coming from, I mean I’ve had my times were skin color is an issue and I’ve seen both sides where people accept you and people reject you. And I think my biggest thing is , it may sound kind of cliché, but it was so long ago. like give it up. If all you see is color then you’re just, in my book, just kind of lost. Of course that’s how society is raised, that’s how society sees people, as their skin color. It’s stereotypes. But if you don’t get to know the person then you’re doing yourself a big disservice basically by judging a book by it’s cover. If Christina had never talked to me, she’s never been around black people, she’s probably just like he’s another one of those ghetto people just trying to chase basketball dreams (laughs). But not me! I was ready to give up basketball for crying aloud. But , it’s just one of those things where I think to me, this is how I see it. You’re not doing anything to me, you’re just doing more harm to yourself by harboring that hatred and harboring those feelings. To me, I’m fine. You can look at me all day and say “Oh my gosh blah blah” it’s not doing anything to me. It’s hurting you more than me. MCALLISTER: I don’t know, I guess with me it’s the same kind of thing. I haven’t had to deal with any of that kind of stuff my whole life so I guess it’s not something I’ve been real passionate about. Haven’t had a lot of personal experience, just in this relationship and with our families a little bit. I can say that when my parents were having a hard time with it I told them that they just need to get to know Dennis. I said Page 19 �“to me, this is worth whatever problems we might have because of this. This relationship is worth it. that’s all. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44cabebbd26511771c337b16da8e3465.mp3 c0c1ce94fa97fa75a004fc24da4c4e7e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McAllister_Christina Title A name given to the resource Christina McAllister audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McAllister, Christina Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Matro, Philip Brunner, Douglas Vanbiesbrouck Description An account of the resource Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/94599a5c1500f05223ff9ddca2dc4845.pdf c7a8e305c0b04edab163e0a90eca2014 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Colette Seguin Beighley Interviewers: John Deork, Kaylee Niemiec, Justin Vanportfliet and Leah Anderson. Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/16/2012 Biography and Description Colette Seguin Beighley was born in Oakland, California. She attended California State University, Haworth. She is a liscensed counsoler in California and Michigan. She discusses her activism with the Grand Valley State University LGBT Resource Center. Transcript VANPORTFLIET: Ok, why don’t we go around and say our names of the group first. I’m John Deork, Kaylee Niemiec, Justin Vanportfliet, and Leah Anderson. Ok so the date today is March 16th its 12 o’clock noon, at Grand Valley State University, in Allendale, in Michigan. were here today to talk about the subject of Civil rights here in West Michigan. Can you please state your name for the recorder? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Colette Seguin Beighley VANPORTFLIET: Thank you, Ok so where you born? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I was born in Oakland, California. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, and then so what was life like, Life growing up in California. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well let’s see, I was born in the projects, which people are usually surprised about. I think that when you’re in such a privileged spot like the university people always think that you come from that type of space, but I did not. I had the great opportunity of being in the bay area during a time in which there was so much civil rights work going on. It started with the free speech movement at Berkley, and then it went to the Civil rights movement, the women’s movement, Indians of all tribes, occupy Alcatraz, the gay rights movement, all that was happening in that space that I grew up in, so that was very influential. VANPORTFLIET: O yea I bet, so did you go to college? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes, Page 1 �VANPORTFLIET: Ok where did you go? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I went to California State University, Haworth. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, so what was life like there? Like what was the kind of atmosphere at the college because you already referenced some of the big civil rights movements going on there, so what kind of atmosphere like with a bunch of that kinda going on? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yea there was a lot happening in Central America, and there was a lot happening with apartheid in South Africa during that time, so a lot of that stuff was really on the radar, but that particular campus was not as much of an activist campus as Berkley was. but still we had education around those issues and they were on the radar. VANPORTFLIET: Did you have any personal involvement during your college years? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: In college? VANPORTFLIET: Yeah. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No not really, when I was in high school I was involved in a few things against nuclear power plants, but that was about it. VANPORTFLIET: Ok and after college, what was your life kinda like, just a quick background? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I got a masters degree in counseling and I am a licensed marriage and family therapist in both California and Michigan. So I had 25 years of private practice experience before I started this new chapter of my life, so that was very much what I did. I did a lot of advocating for youth in particular; I worked with beyond control youth, run away youth, homeless youth. And so I had some experience with that and those were all great experiences that lead me to this point. And I think that having a degree in counseling is really great preparation for doing student services work. VANPORTFLIET: Right, so you already referenced your daughter, who I know, but what is your family like? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: What is my family like? Hahaha well I have some great kids, I have 2 stepsons from my former marriage, and they both live in Grand Haven. One of them is married to my daughter in law of course, who is a very good friend of mine. The other one just got engaged, and then I have a biological son Ari who is currently living in Amherst, Massachusetts, and then my daughter Chloe who is a junior here and is just a Princess after three boys. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, so does anyone else have any questions before I keep going? NIEMIEC: I was just wondering, when you were growing up like with your family, what was your family like when you were a child, were you very religious, were your parents strict at all? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well let’s see, my mom had been married before so there were two siblings but they didn’t grow up with me they lived with their dad, so I was really an only child. I remember when we were living in the projects and it was really rough, what’s always below the surface is your safety. We Page 2 �moved out of there when I was eight years old, but that’s definitely that way that I learned to navigate the world. And I remember being really afraid, like terrified, you know a couple of bad things happened so that was kinda a rough way to enter the world. But my mom was super, super, super loving and supportive and my dad was fairly absent, alcoholic. That’s probably too much information hahaha. Then when I was eight we moved to a suburb of the east bay, Dublin. And it was, it went from a very diverse living situation to really an all white neighborhood. And I went to elementary, middle school, and high school in that environment. It was fine but you know as I really appreciate diversity, so I was kind of sad that I lost that but my family valued diversity and always looked at people who were different them ourselves as an opportunity to step back and learn more about the world. I think they did some things wrong, I can remember some things that were probably pretty offensive to especially African American people, but it was not, it was just out of their own ignorance. But we weren’t even talking about things like White privilege at the time so people would step all over their whiteness without even knowing it. But we had friends who were from the deaf community; we had friends that were from the gay and lesbian community. And every time my parent would prepare me for ‘were going to meet this family and this is what their like, you may have questions and we will talk about it afterwards’, really open in that way. And I was raised catholic, but I won’t say that it was a very religious family, my parents, because my mom was divorced before my mom could never really become catholic but they had this idea that, that is what they should raise me as. I went to church with a lot of different family, and did first communion and catechism and all that. It provides a sort of structure well your growing up so I appreciated that. VANPORTFLIET: So what kind of drew you to initially counseling, you said you graduated with a masters in family counseling, what initially drew you to that? Was it your diversity in your childhood? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No, no my family is very crazy hahaha and I just wanted to figure out, what the heck happened here? And how can I possibly go on and create a healthy family. And I cant do that unless I know, how do you do a healthy family and what the hell happened here? And that was really it, in fact I even went on to a year of my PHD program and then I sort of came to terms, actually trough my work there that I was kinda done. I just wanted to figure out a few things and I had figured it out. Now I wished I had finished hahaha just my desire to get into counseling was just to figure out the world, to get some of what I didn’t get growing up. A skill set to go out. VANPORTFLIET: So how long did you do the counseling? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: For about 25 years. VANPORTFLIET: Wow, so was that in California? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No I was in California for only about 3 years, the rest was in Michigan. VANPORTFLIET: So you moved to Michigan for your Job? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Nope, I moved to Michigan because my then husband’s family was from Michigan and we thought it would be a good environment to raise kids because the cousins were here. And it is a good place to raise kids, unless one of your kids turns out to be gay then maybe not so much, which we found out. Page 3 �VANPORTFLIET: So you said Ari, who is gay, who I know. He is actually a good friend, I am sad he moved away, but what was it like raising Ari or maybe you can broaden the spectrum a little bit like raising a gay or lesbian son in west Michigan? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Ari was really set apart from all the other kids because he was profoundly gifted. He got into a Johns Hoppkins program when he was in 8th grade that was reserved for students in the United States for students who scored the top half of one percent in the nation. So that was really a challenge, it was always a challenge for him. To keep him stimulated, to have his needs meet, to keep him grounded. And that always made him different, from any of the other kids, different in the way he related; but he was always different from the other kids. He was extremely demonstrative and that worked till he was about 6 then his male relatives wanted him to man up a bit. He never really did, he’s just who he is. And I didn’t raise him thinking that he was gay, I raised him thinking that he was a unique individual who didn’t really fit, kinda a square peg in a round hole. But I do remember when he was maybe 2 and a half. I was sitting on his bedroom floor he was playing, playing dress up and he dressed up and he was like spinning around and he was working it. And I remember thinking, ‘oh this kid might be gay, I wonder if I’m going to be returning to this conversation in 10 years or so’ and then I put it out of my head. Until he was about 13 or 14. By the time he was about 14, he was really questioning and I was really questioning him too. Then he eventually came out when he was 16. VANPORTFLIET: From your perspective, what was that like for him? You said he was always so different, always set apart what was that like for him, like at school? Because at 16 that is such a rough time for everyone, having that kind of revelation and kind of life change. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I think it was incredible rough, he was not getting along with his sister, and his sister is his best friend in the whole world! He was just irascible and when he did come out, we ended up doing this retreat together as a family. Six of us got on a plane and went to Santé Fe and did this. The experience coming out powerfully, and at this retreat like all retreats, you have to write a letter. And then they make you read the letter. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: It lame but whatever. He read the letter and he read it to his dad and I. And he said, you know, mom and dad you are such good parents. And I’m thinking, okay there’s something; let’s cut to the chase here. . And then he said but there’s something I have to tell you. And then it was so tremendous moment. My adrenaline just shot to my head. And I remember just going through the rolodex like in split seconds of how did I screw up? How did I not protect him from getting hurt? And then he talked about how when he was in middle school, he had been……well a few boys had thought he was gay. And they targeted him. And they would wait for him in the stairwell of the school and beat him up every day. But they wouldn’t beat him on his face or on his arms, only on the lower body. But they would beat him until the point that he would vomit blood. And I hyperventilated when he said that. I never hyperventilated in my life, but it was just so awful. It was so awful to know that he had been going through that and we had no idea. And you know, two therapists as parents you’d think we would have a clue, but we didn’t have any idea. So I just felt so awful that he had to go through that alone. And it Page 4 �really it explained so much about how he was irascible during those years and just so difficult to live with. and also how he was so much freer and comfortable with himself after he came out. VANPORTFLIET: Right. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah. VANPORTFLIET: Do you guys have anything questions? (Looking at group) DEORK: Have you always had a good relationship with him? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes. Not that I don’t drive him crazy. I do of course. But yes. (Laughter) ANDERSON: Do you think that has helped him in this experience with this? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: . I don’t know. I would think so but I’m the last person to…you should talk to him. Call him up. (Laughter) SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: ask him what he thinks. I’m sure at times it’s been annoying as how to have a mom that is so out there. You know. (Laughter) SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: It’s like, can you please tone it down a bit? You know. But he’s never said that. He’s always a big cheerleader too, so. VANPORTFLIET: . So, what is your title here at the college? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I am director of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender resource center. LGBT resource center. VANPORTFLIET: Right. and then kind of take us through like what is your job description. Like, what kind of things do you do as the director of the LGBT center? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Okay well, let me tell you about the LGBT resource center then ill break it down. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah of course. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: So, our mission is to empower students to lead …if I didn’t have a cold. (Laughter) (Pause) Okay, to empower students to lead authentic lives to challenge gender and sexuality stereotypes and to work for social justice. So, we look to our center as serving 25,000 members of the community, not just the LGBTQ community. Because all of our students live in a world with gross inequality and part of their education needs to be coming to terms with their place in that world. Understanding what’s happening Page 5 �with marginalized communities. And then what, how does that fit with their lives and with what they are going to do. so we, we serve the entire student body and then specifically we serve LGBTQ students. So we have our Freshmen Queer Alliance which is for first year students and it really is to operate a safety net for them. A place to connect, many students don’t come out until they get to college when they can finally separate from their families of origin and trying a new identity. it’s a social group but we also take them on bus trips so that they can learn the bus system and go downtown a bit, and learn where the food places are on campus, and where resources are if they need help with writing or something like that. and then they do fun things like bowling and watch movies and that sort of things. So our Freshmen Queer Alliance is really to just give them a place to be here on campus. And then we also have our Pipeline Leadership Group which is for second year students and above. And that’s a yearlong leadership program that really focuses on advocacy and activism. And it is also open to our allies as well. This year we have our first ally student in the leadership group and it really has been a lot of fun. And then we have our LGBT ambassadors. And they help us out in many ways; whether it is at a social event, our ice cream social at the beginning of the year. They come in their rainbow, GVSU shirts. And look for those students who may be sitting alone or may be trying to find out, find a way to get connected. And they also go into classrooms and do presentations. For our allies and advocate training they tell their stories of coming out, and just wherever we need help our LGBT ambassadors are right there. We also have our monthly on-going LGBT conference, which looks at LGBT and leadership, gender, culture, race, spirituality, and one other thing. (Laughter) And that’s a monthly event that’s LIB100 approved and US201 approved. That really introduces LGBT issues and ideas on campus. We have our lavender graduation; this will be our sixth year. For lavender graduation, it is actually older than the center. This is the fourth year for the center. And it is a time to celebrate the scholastic achievements of our LBGT and ally students. And it is a lot of fun. It’s a big deal. So, we really, really put a lot of effort into lavender graduation. We also have open door discussions where students can come up with their own topic and do their own program in the center. And that is really fascinating to see what kind of things students come up with. We just had one on gay stereotypes. and what else do we do? Oh we have our change and training for social justice, which is semester long program that’s grant funded. And it looks at systems, intersecting systems, of oppression, racism sexism, homophobia, and how they are interdependent and need one another to survive. And we have a 1.0 and a 2.0. And so our students learn the framework in the 1.0 and then they really dig into strategies and tactics for activism in the second one. So, that’s really a very dynamic program. So just to give you, and then our allies and advocate training we do that for the Greek community and then we do it for the general community as well. So I’m not sure if I hit all of our programs but that the smorgasbord of what we do. VANPORTFLIET: That is a lot of involvement. ANDERSON: Yeah, that’s a lot. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes. So then my role is to work with the students to develop that program that meets their needs. To really help cast a vision for the center. And to be involved in the greater LGBT Page 6 �community, to keep us tied to current events. So I’m on the board of our state wide Antiviolence and Advocacy Organization Equality Michigan. And I work with the national consourcion of LGBT resource professionals in higher education. And I go to the national gay and lesbian test force conference on creating change every year. And I present at conferences on specifically of expanding the circle which is LGBTQ’s studies and services in higher education. So it’s the only conference that’s really devoted specifically to the issues that we serve. And I’m presenting at two workshops this summer at that conference. So all of that helps me to have a broad sense of the movement. And being able to connect our students to what’s happening in the community and understand nationally. I just like the first week I was here when I was assistant director, I remember a student getting fired. And I remember him saying, “You can’t fire me. I have my rights.” That’s what he said, he was going to say it to the person who fired him. And no you can be fired for being gay in Michigan. There are no protections; there are absolutely no protections in Michigan. Sexual orientation and gender identity is not included in Elliot Larson’s Civil Rights Act. It’s not included in our hate crimes on law. We don’t have second parent adoption. We just recently, after ten years of work, finally passed an anti-bullying bill. But it’s completely toothless and ineffective. There were only two states in the nation left who hadn’t passed an anti-bullying bill and Michigan was one of them. We did it because we were ashamed into it, but it is completely not powerful. And then, our constitution rewritten inequality into our constitution by saying that marriage is between one man and one woman. So it’s rough here. And our students need to understand, yet I don’t want to paint a black picture of their future for them. But I really want to help them to build allies and collisions to go out and change the inequity that excess; not only for the LGBT community, but the immigrant community as a target. A huge islamophobia around the country now. So, all those issues are important and they all impact LGBT lives as well, because our community goes throughout. We have Muslim LGBT people; we have LGBT people who are immigrants. So all those issues are our issues as well. So back to being director. I do all those things and help the programming move forward, to cast division for the center, to keep connected with local state and national movement s. And then also to work within the university to move us forward in being more equitable. In the summer of 2008, we added gender identity and expression to our antidiscrimination policy. But yet, four years later, we do not have policies in place for a staff or faculty member who is looking to transition. So if somebody is identifying as transgender and wants to start transitioning, they want to see a policy in place. They don’t want to have to go into human resources and be the first person to do that. So the vice president of inclusion and equity, Gene Arnold, has formed the Gender Identity and Expression Committee. And I serve on that committee. And we are looking at policies throughout the university, whether it’s developing gender neutral locker room space. Creating health, or adding healthcare coverage that is trans inclusive. Working with banner, we’re going to be an experimental university to work with banner so that they can, students, can choose a preferred name, and not, if somebody is transitioning and they are going by Jane, but their banner says John and their professor outs them in class it’s public safety issue to them. You know? And it’s also so difficult for them to go to every single professor before class begins and tell the story and see if they can get you know they can get by in, and most of the time the professors want to do the right thing but certainly there have been professors who have refused to call them by their preferred name. So then when that happens we get involved, and also I’m on the university’s team against bias, so I’ve worked with bias incidents on campus along with other members of the team, so working with policy and our campus climate is really an important piece of the work we Page 7 �do cause we want all students to feel safe and we want to retain our students once they come here, all students, not just LGBT students but all students. That’s a very long answer. VANPORTFLIET: Aw, that’s okay. so how do you feel that Grand Valley is compared to other schools maybe in Michigan, cause it’s here in West Michigan thats traditionally very religious a religious part of the state, very conservative, so but my opinion I feel like with this center we’re making good steps toward being very proactive, but what’s your opinion? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I think compared to other public universities we’re doing really well. We have a 4.5 out of 5 star rating on the campus LGBT friendly campus climate index, and that’s the highest any school has. At one point the University of Michigan had a 5, but they have moved down to a 4.5 because they have raised the bar a bit to meet the needs of transgender students – VANPORTFLIET: Mmhm SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: More thoroughly, and lets see there are 4 universities, one, two, three, four, five, lets see, maybe not, theres University of Michigan, MSU, Eastern, Tech, Grand Valley, all have 4.5 ratings, so we feel good about that but University of Michigan had the first LGBT resource center in the country but it was four decades before we got ours at Grand Valley. And that said only 7% of campuses in the United States have LGBT resource centers. So we are still ahead of the curve there. And with our implementation of gender neutral housing this past fall we’ve moved even further ahead because I think that after the loss of Tyler Clementi at Rutgers last fall, universities are understanding that they need to listen to the housing needs of their LGBT students more closely. And right after that tragedy Rutgers implemented gender neutral housing. So other universities want to be pro-active so that they are not responding to a negative event, but really doing you know, being ahead of that. so I think that Grand Valley has a long way to go, there are lots of ways we do not meet the needs of our LGBTQ students, faculty, and staff. But we have also come a long way, and we have a tremendous amount of support here, so, I give us high marks. VANPORTFLIET: So, what is, what is maybe the biggest thing here at Grand Valley that we could do to improve, like the, whats the next step that would be like huge in your opinion? For the LGBT center or for the women’s center anything like that? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: So like a wish list? VANPORTFLIET: Yeah! SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well a big wish list would be if I could wish away, I would say that I wish we would have a social justice center and our other centers were under it, including disabilities support services which is not under the brella right now, there, in a different unit, but, the purpose of the social justice center would be to not look at just one ‘ism’,not just look at racism, but look at sexism and to see, to educate our students about the dependency of these dynamics on one another to move forward. And also to, we have students who are mostly white and mostly come from at least a middle class background, so they come with lots of privilege and I would really love to educate the entire student body about that privilege so that they can look at other people more realistically. And also understand Page 8 �that with privilege comes responsibility. so that would be my big view. But then specifically for our center, bigger budget, more staff, *laughing* that’s my Christmas wish list. so that we could do all the things that we want to do. VANPORTFLIET: okay, so we talked about proposition 8 in our class, so how, it was passed and then overturned, and brought back, so how do you think Michigan did on that, I think, I think you already touched on, it just wasn’t there, it kinda dropped the ball, and what do you think, can happen to kind of help push that along, you know? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Mmhm, Well marriage equality certainly is, at the top of the list of items that the LGBT, what we call Gay Inc. which is the human rights campaign, and the national gay and lesbian task force what they are moving forward, and I have some problems with that, so I’ll say that and then I’ll go back to it, but as far as marriage, yes, Michigan was an epic fail. It passed, we passed a constitutional amendment to ban marriage equality in our state. I’m happy to say I didn’t vote for it even before I was so out. and I think there are over 30 states that have those kinds of constitutional amendments, but we are seeing state by state, it’s flipping, so that’s helpful. There are 8 states and the District Colombia right now that marriage equality, I just can’t wait for 2 more flip and I can say 20% of the states in the nation have marriage equality, so, and that doesn’t count states that allow civil unions, so and let me just clarify that that’s still separate but not equal because even our own household member benefits on our university, our unmarried partners get the same health coverage, but they don’t pay the same for it, because they have to pay for their coverage with post-tax dollars. Where as married couples pay with pre-tax dollars so they actually end up spending about 25% less if you’re married. So if Michigan were to flip marriage equality it would still be inequitable for gay and lesbian couples because at the federal level we have the defensive marriage act, which Obama currently is not enforcing, but it’s, thats a federal mandate, it’s not something that Grand Valley can control at all. The 1,138 benefits that come with marriage still do not, are not enjoyed by the LGBTQ community. Even in states where marriage equality has passed. VANPORTFLIET: Do you think that, that marriage equality, is like the nber one thing that we should be pushing for, like or, theres another issue we kind of touched on in class, with gays being able to adopt and having that two parent adoption, and that was, especially powerful for me because one of my friends has two lesbian Moms, and so I’m kinda close to that and we watched a video on it and the person who was kind of thrown into that situation, was totally against it and was very close-minded I thought. and they, they even showed her with different situations with kids and adoption centers and rundown with really no place to go and then they showed this happy family with two dads, and she was still like no, that’s not right. And so I was just wondering which is that the nber one, er like what’s the nber one thing that if you again had like a wish, that you would pass. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well, I mean realistically, as we did strategic planning for the state wide organization we did focus groups all around the state to see what constitutions wanted and they all wanted marriage equality. But that can’t be the first thing that you go for, especially in this state so getting the antibullying bill passed had to be the first thing, so we got that passed, and it was not as we liked it but, but we got it passed. and part of the reason that it did pass was because it served Michigan well not to be the leftover state that is not passing it. So, right now we’re working on our Elliot Larson civil rights act to Page 9 �see if we can expand that. And that will give immediate relief to families, and that will directly translate to the lived experience of LGBT people to have protections and housing and on the job. And for straight people as well because you can be fired for being perceived as being gay, right. So, so working on that so as far as second parent adoption will probably be next after that, because those are some of the things that people can relate to, research shows that the happiest healthiest kids grow up with two Moms. You know, what can you say, you have two Moms your doing pretty well, and research backs it up, so I think that on the road to marriage equality there are these other markers that can really impact quality of life for LGBT people are also more obtainable and that’s how we are working it in the state. Justin to group: Okay, and questions? NIEMIEC: Not really, it was more focused on like your son but I mean, we were talking about something different. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well, I am happy to go back to that. Do you have anything in particular. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah, go ahead and ask it! NIEMIEC: Okay I was just wondering when you said that he was bullied in school and like when he came out to you, did you feel you guys got closer or did he like kind of back away, or like went kind of went on with that, did your relationship grow? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah, I really feel, I don’t feel like we got closer, because he’s also you know 16 years old and a guy and was needing to be like separating from his Mom a bit too. I think we’ve always been close certainly he became closer with his sister and his sister-in-law who’s like a sister to him, yeah, but it didn’t impact our relationship negatively in any way. NIEMIEC: Okay, and like did your other, like your parents or like any other family members, did, how did they react, or did they see it all along, like, like how you did, did they see the signs, or, you know? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: That was a disaster... NIEMIEC: It was? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well my Mom had passed away a few years earlier, which was for me sort of a cosmic crisis like, like why isn’t she here? Because she would have just not missed a beat and she and Ari were just like this. but on the paternal side that family is very, very, very religious and so that’s their lens of seeing the world and they did not have any space for Ari being gay…Period. So, it was a difficult time. We actually wrote them a letter so that they could sort of process, not in the moment with us, but just sort of like reorganize and then come to us and have a conversation, and try to like do damage control a bit. And, we said we know you have this way of understanding it, but there is other information too, we really want to go on this journey with you duh-duh-duh-duh-dah. And I thought for sure that you know I was keeping the living room clean thinking that they were gonna be showing up to have the conversation. 8 months of silence. And then at the end of 8 months, Ari’s grandpa sent a letter that was so scathing. Saying that Ari’s being gay was the biggest disappointment of his entire life. And he copied everyone in the family. And so that just gave, opened the flood gates for the other people to Page 10 �send their own letters, and I got 7 page, single spaced, margin-less typed letters from the family saying that we had turned our children over to Satan, and that, you know all of this really extreme, extreme stuff. So, its pretty hard to heal from that. You know, it’s pretty hard to move forward from that. I feel like, and this is a mom genetic coding thing, I feel like I can never get passed that. That that was so hurtful and so unnecessary. That I just really can’t get passed that. But Ari is more generous, and he has a relationship with those family members now. you know he could not bring his partner to their house but I think some of them have even started asking him if he has a boyfriend. I know that his grandma has started asking him. His grandfather never will. So, you know it has been, 7 years now, so. VANPORTFLIET: It’s a work in progress… SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah. NIEMIEC: Is there still tension between you and the… SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I am divorced now (laughter). But you know between my in-laws, no. (She paused) I know that they still love Ari. And I know that in their worldview they were doing the best they can. I still think that it was unnecessary and hearts that will never heal so I just have a really hard time understanding why someone would put that thing in writing and then send it to everybody else. But I know also that they feel the same way about the work that I have done. That my being public about Ari’s coming out has injured them in the same ways. That they have felt like I have publicly shamed the family in doing that. So it depends on which lens you work through. There were times when I felt like I was losing my mind, that I would actually drive to Detroit to Triangle Foundation which was a State-wide organization at the time now it’s Equality Michigan. And just say, I know I am doing the right thing, but I’ve got nothing here. I’ve got no support. I just need to hear that I’m doing the right thing. Supporting my son, you know, how crazy is that. But yeah, I think I’m hopeful that the cousins, some of the cousins, some of the cousins that my children will be able to have relationships with them. Some of them they won’t I know because they also are really pulling this hard line. VANPORTFLIET: What do you think the big problem is between the religious community, and the LGBT center? Because, I am religious but I don’t see it so cut and dry as some other like obviously some of those people who wrote those letters. I don’t believe that at all. So what do you think? Do you think that they are exclusive? Like in some parts or like I believe that they don’t have to be, but what’s kinda your take on that. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I left out the part where my ex-husband was a minister and he lost his minister license because he supported Ari. But you know, I have spent a lot of time thinking about it. And I think that people build their self-esteem based on their religious beliefs that for a lot of people it’s a journey, like I said my journey out of a difficult situation was really education. To try to figure out, oh my, gosh, how does this work? But for some people its finding religion and building a whole identity around that. And that’s how they are okay in the world. So when you start to mess with that, it becomes a situation where there’s a lot at stake. And if you pull this brick out of the wall, that’s a big brick. Because if they are feeling that homosexuality is a sin, which is their bi-line you know. Then if you pull that brick out of the wall and they change that, what else do they have to question? That’s a lot of work and that’s scary. Page 11 �So I came to understand, this is my way that I made sense of it, is that Ari’s coming out, and then my being so vocal about inequality, created a lot on anxiety in people especially in who held these fundamental beliefs. And they wanted me to not make them anxious. And if I did not stop making them anxious, then there was a consequence to that. So I understand the anxiety and the organization of a personality. In that kind of way where there’s just a lot at stake, in their being okay. And I’m sure other people see it differently and disagree with me on that. VANPORTFLIET: Well we are almost done with the hour so is there one thing you wanna leave with, it could be about the LGBT community or something you think is a big problem that we still need to overcome, maybe something we haven’t touched on yet? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I talked about how I would love for all students to be able to have a chance to examine their own privilege and to be able to come to terms with that. So that they could understand how they could leverage that in the future to create change. And so, and that just reminds me of this quote by Anias Nin and it says, we see the world not as it is, but as we are. We see people not as they are but as we are. I think I probably just butchered that but the point being that we, unless we do work to make it explicit, we only see through our own lens. And it takes some discomfort and some really being intentional to be able to see things from a point of view from a marginalized community. Or from the very complex identities that some of our students carry, like being black, disabled, and lesbian. Being able to see through that lens. And I would hope that we would focus on giving students an opportunity to challenge themselves in that way. VANPORTFLIET: Well thank you very much. I know for me it’s been very enlightening and it’s been very nice to talk to you. END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a049e8e9144046e155a8d3276b6dc17e.mp3 bfa891d04f60aacf97e21248be6169d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Seguin-Beighley_Colette Title A name given to the resource Colette Seguin Beighley audio interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seguin Beighley, Colette Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Deork, John Niemiec, Kaylee Vanportfliet, Justin Anderson, Leah Description An account of the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley was born in Oakland, California. She attended California State University, Haworth. She is a liscensed counsoler in California and Michigan. She discusses her activism with the Grand Valley State University LGBT Resource Center. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b46579ea044f2e0b721591fee6c367e9.pdf 862b72d3d1660f926977ac83efe112fe PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Sequin-Beighley, Colette Interviewers: James Smith, martin Feenstra and Jacob Bouwman Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/12/2011 Runtime: 00:32:29 Biography and Description Colette Seguin-Beighley is director of the LGBT resource center at Grand Valley State University. She compares her experiences growing up in San Francisco during the civil rights movement with her experiences in West Michigan. Transcript J: My name is Jacob Bouwman, and I’m here today, Tuesday the 29th at 2 p.m. with Colette at the LGBT center in Allendale Michigan, and we are here today to talk about her experience with civil rights in West Michigan. Could you give some basic information about yourself, like your name, date of birth, religion, life partner, child, children? C: (Laughter), wow, date of birth! All right, (Laughter). Colette Seguin Beighley, April 10th 1957, long before you guys were even thought of! I currently do not have a life partner, although that’s up for debate, that could be conversation, negotiating that, I have two biological children, two stepchildren and a daughter-in law, and my oldest biological child is my son Arie, and he is gay. J: And then where did you grow up? C: I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area, Berkeley, in the 60’s, so that was a very tumultuous time when lots of civil rights movements were being born, beginning with the free speech movement on the Campus of UC Berkley and going onto the civil rights movement, the black panther party in Oakland was developed and very much in the forefront during that time, and then Indians of all tribes, which is how they wanted to be named, occupied Alcatraz and demanded civil rights federally and then also during that time there was the gay rights movement in San Francisco and the women’s movement happened during that time as well, and then in my early adulthood I was living in the San Francisco bay area when AIDS hit so there was a lot going on during my growing up years. J: Yeah, that’s pretty much a discussion of what it was like growing up, but obviously it was pretty crazy. Page 1 �C: Yeah, I feel like I have that, those civil rights movements are really sort of imprinted in my DNA, and looking at the world through the lens of marginalized communities as well, questioning the status quo, and making sure not to be a guardian of the status quo is also part of what I was left with. J: Then how did you get to West Michigan, what brought you to West Michigan? C: Let’s see, when I was married to Arie and Chloe’s dad, he was from Muskegon, and so we thought this would be a great place to raise a family, and it probably is, unless you have a gay kid, then not so much. J: Then how did that make you feel about being in West Michigan? C: I was really in culture shock; obviously I didn’t do my homework to know that there were places that were so different from the San Francisco Bay area. The first thing that I noticed was that I felt as though the women’s movement had never come here. So I moved in 1989 and the way that men talked about their partners was just so patriarchal, so misogynistic, and also I saw a lot of bigotry and just tremendous homophobia, so it was a really difficult move for me and I handled that by sort of going underground, and my friends, we would always say, “we’re not from around here,” and it was people like from a different country or a different state, who had also relocated to West Michigan who brought through difference, and a different world view and I just sort of was under the radar until Arie came out and that was really a turning point for me, and I felt like I had to give voice, I couldn’t be silent anymore. Ji: Do you have any specific experiences, or like crazy examples of how you found out that this area was really homophobic and stuff like that, do you have an examples? C: Well, I remember some friends of ours who were really our best friends, we thought lets go to Saugatuck for the weekend, you know, lets just go hang out, a great little town on the lake, fun little cottagey sort of town, and they were like, noooooo! We cannot go down there; there are queers down there! And then I was like *incredulous face*. At that point I had, had many dear friends whom I loved so much die of AIDS, so that was not only so offensive, it was just shocking, it was really like water being thrown in my face, and then also, I had seen probably three or four families have family members who had come out, and they were never integrated into the family, it was always problematic, and they were ejected, they never stayed around in the area. This was on the lakeshore now, I was living in the Spring Lake, Grand Haven area, so that was my experience before Arie came out. I knew that was the culture that I was living in. And plus, this is very personal, but my ex-husband was also a minister in the Wesleyan Church, and he has a PhD in marriage and family therapy, so he had a private practice, but he worked within that denomination, so I’m not really a church person, I wasn’t, I didn’t grow up in that world but you know, I would go, and until the homophobia from the pulpit became so much that I would blow out of there, and I think we landed in 3 different churches and I remember one time him saying to me you make it very hard for me to be a pastor. I am like this so it is very hard for me to hear this kind of hate I can’t sit there through that! So yeah, there was a lot of dissonance. J: And then you said that was your husband? C: Yes Page 2 �J: Were there any books or films or speeches or newspapers that influenced your thinking about gender relations at all? C: Well, gender relations, that’s an interesting way of to put it. Ok, so let me go down that very sort of generic gender relations thing. So in the early 80’s when I met my soon to be husband, I was coming from a place where the world, in the world that I lived in, people didn’t really feel the need to get married, they were really challenging that institution and saying that it was based on patriarchy and was institutionally oppressive, so I knew lots of families where the kids had two last names, and they were never married but they were happy families who were growing up together, so then I began a relationship with someone from the Midwest who had a very traditional upbringing, very church-based as well and that was not something he could really tolerate, so what he could tolerate was getting married and so I went down that road, so that challenged me in lots of ways, you know I think that initially I did not believe in the institution, then I bought into the institution, and not in any way to villainify my ex-husband because I have a great relationship with him, but the institution I think, is founded on a wrong premise and I just don’t see that its necessary, it’s the state valuing some relationships over other relationships and we get lots of benefits if we buy into that right? We get 1138 federal benefits that come with marriage, that unmarried partners do not have so why does the state get to say which relationships are valid and which aren’t? J: And then, you answered the next question kind of, but it was do you remember any family friends or individuals in the community that were discriminated against either formally or informally, but were there any examples in education or in employment, and you said socially, made one, but like in education or employment at all, did you see any discrimination at all? C: In California when I was growing up or here? J: Either one. C: Ok, well, I moved to, I grew up in the projects, and then when I was in 2nd grade we moved to a suburban neighborhood, a low income neighborhood, but it was a suburban neighborhood out of the projects and the first kid I met his name was Bruce, so im in 2nd grade at this point, and we grew up together, and he was sort of small in stature and he had the misfortune of the fact that his mom had remarried. He was a child from her previous marriage so his stepdad was also a retired marine and Bruce was not his biological child so Bruce was fairly effeminate and there was tremendous gender policing that went on with his dad and his dad would beat him. It was so traumatizing. He would just yank him out of the room and just start beating him. So I’d maybe be 10 feet away, just a wall separating us and I can still just hear blood-curdling screams in my head. It was so awful. It was so awful. So then my relationship with Bruce of course continued and we would walk to school together and he was often the victim of bullies, and I was like painfully shy when I was growing up so I wasn’t someone who would like jump in and break things up because I was just overwhelmed by the whole experience, and I remember one time he actually even had a broken leg, and just always being bullied, but just him looking up from the ground at me and saying Colette go for help. And there is something about that that has become sort of a life mission for me like I’m still trying to go for help for Bruce and then to bring that to your question of education, the principal would always blame Bruce for the fact Page 3 �that he was getting bullied. “Well if you’d just man up, if you would just you know act more like you’re supposed to then this wouldn’t be happening to you” so Bruce dropped out of school when we were, before our junior year in high school and he was the very first, and he lived on the street, totally on the street in San Francisco, just you know how survival, just trying to survive, he was the first person I ever knew who died of AIDS, it was at a time when the disease was very, very new and we were actually whispering it, you would not even talk about it, you’d just whisper it, it was so scary and so much shame was around it, just a horrible horrible, horrible time, so I feel like that really was my experience of knowing Bruce has impacted me in many ways. Ji: And then, what about like education and your employment here? I assume that it’s not as bad obviously, but are there any examples that influenced you more? C: Discrimination at Grand Valley specifically you’re talking about? Yeah, there are certainly examples of discrimination at Grand Valley that are part of Grand Valley’s history. Grand Valley has quite a history, I’m going to give you a DVD of the history, there’s one chapter in there about Grand Valley, I think we have finally come to a place where we are on the road to being great allies to the LGBT community, but still trying to figure out what that means. But the university has had a lot of bumps along the way and a lot of people have been hurt. It’s been a long process. Now the university is very committed to the community and we’re always trying to figure out more what that means. J: I definitely feel like if anybody here like talked about saying queer or saying anything bad like automatically I know a lot of people from Grand Valley are against like they view that they’re against them like it’s so out of the ordinary not to be ok with it, like I’m kind of happy that Grand Valley’s that ways now, like I don’t know it’s just like in high school, you saw, I always saw like bullying and stuff like that, but here if anybody were to say something, it would be like you can’t say that here. That’s why I’m kind of happy to be at a place like this, because people know that it’s not right and like they’re the ones that are shunned, not the ones that are coming out that are gay or bi or anything. C: That’s good to hear. You’re a member of the Greek community right? J: Yeah. C: Yeah, my daughter Chloe, she’s… J: Oh yeah! C: Are you a member of the Greek community? Ji: No I am not. C: Well a couple years ago the Greek community came to us and asked if we would do Greek ally training, so we’ve been doing Greek allies and advocates now, and we have nearly 300 Greeks who are trained to be allies and that’s so different from other college campuses where the Greek community is not friendly to the LGBT communities so I think that’s a wonderful thing about Grand Valley. Page 4 �J: I mean, I can’t get too involved just because of like rowing and everything, but I mean, I know a lot of Greeks are trying to work toward that too. But anyways, who are your civil rights heroes locally? C: Locally? You know, ok, I do have a hero locally. Doug VanDoren, who is the pastor of Plymouth Congregational United Church of Christ, is a wonderful civil rights leader in our area. He is a great champion of marginalized communities whether its refugees whether its women and he was one of the first people to come out for the LGBT community and that’s in this DVD that I just gave you as well. He’s in there. But he talks about how there was a Byron Center teacher who was outed. There’s a whole chapter about Jerry Crane, and that’s the name of the instructor, the Byron Center teacher, he was outed, and it created this firestorm throughout Byron Center, there was a school board meeting where 800 people attended and pretty much Jerry Crane was on trial, he’d had a commitment ceremony, and his students got wind of it, and then it got to the parents, and then the American Family Society stepped in, and started handing out letters and videos to every mailbox of parents and they were just really sensationalized videos of like gay pride parades and they take the most extreme pictures and it was really horrible experience so they did not fire Jerry because the risk of litigation was too high, but he did quit at the end of the year. That next year he died of a stress related heart attack at 32 years old. So during that time when there was this pastor who you’ll see in this video because that story made 20-20 so there’s a clip of the 20-20 story on this DVD. This pastor from Byron Center was just so hateful toward the gay community, so Doug VanDoren stepped up and stood in solidarity with Jerry Crane’s pastor who was supportive of him and got other pastors on board so they had like, I don’t know, 50 or 100 pastors who had signed on in support of Jerry Crane and his church so you know Doug just came out of nowhere and did this organizing, and then around prop 2 which said, which is our anti-marriage equality constitutional amendment here in Michigan, he also organized a group called the “Concerned Clergy” which is, you know, local pastors who did not want discrimination written into our constitution. So he’s a great organizer, he’s a wonderful speaker, he’s very very very articulate and just has this great heart, and his congregation is extremely welcoming and affirming of the LGBT community. J: What about nationally? C: Nationally, well let’s see. I’m going to try to think of one that isn’t just the basic one. Hmmm. Currently I just really admire the work of Incite! Its women of color who are doing organizing work around police brutality and they’re doing it outside of the non-profit world. They’re doing grassroots organizing that isn’t tied to professionalizing their work by becoming non-profit. It’s not tied to funders in any way. They can speak their truth and not worry about losing funding and they’re really amazing heroes. I’ve recently this year been reading feminist literature by women of color so Angela Davis, Belle Hookes, reading those works, and I think they’re amazing heroes of mine. It’s the women’s movement was erroneously framed from a white perspective. White middle class perspective and it left out women of color, women of lower socio-economic classes and so these women developed their own voices and that’s been really instructional for me this year. Of course all the basics, you know, MLK, but I’m trying to talk about some other voices as well. J: You kind of talked about how, like how did your thinking about your identity change growing up? You said your son was a big factor, but was there anything else? Was there any other major factors or experiences or anything? Page 5 �C: *pause* hmmm…Interesting question. I’m a first generation college student from my family and as I said, grew up in the projects, so come from a background where going to college was just frowned upon because it would make you snooty, and so then I went on the get an advanced degree which is even more sort of an act of betrayal actually and I think that growing up in those roots has been impactful because I don’t have an elite upbringing. People never think I grew up in the projects. They always think I had a privileged upbringing. I don’t know why but that’s what they think and so I’m happy that I have had that experience even though at times it was harrowing, it just widens my view of the world a little bit more. J: What kind of work do you do now? C: Well I’m the director of the LGBT Resource Center. I also sit on the board for Equality Michigan, which is our state anti-violence and advocacy organization serving the LGBT community. I also am involved with the National Consortium of Higher Education Resource Center Professionals. Way to long in name, I know *laughs* but it’s all the LGBT campus resource centers and a regional representative with that, and what else? Read the question again. J: It was just what do you do? What is your work that you do? C: So now my work changes every day. The mission of the LGBT resource center is to educate and empower students to lead authentic lives, to challenge gender and sexuality stereotypes and to work for social justice, so all our work is framed around that, and I always think of that in terms of pushing out a space to create the greater visibility for the LGBT community, but also to mainstream their issues. I think of our office as serving 25,000 students on campus, not just the LGBT community because these students who are from the dominant group live in a society where a whole group of people don’t have their rights so that is their issue as well, this is not just an LGBT issue, this is everybody’s issue. So we work with students and help them along their developmental journey. We work with faculty and staff as well, we support them, we work with the institution to make sure our policies and practices are supportive of the community, we work in the community, probably more so than other offices, because our students, faculty, staff, alums all go out into the community to work and live and that’s a community where they don’t have their rights so our work expands in that direction as well. J: And then, it asks if you could tell like a story, about how like, one of the specific ways the organizations that you’re part of, is there a story you can just tell about one of them, just anything like that? C: Well I’ll tell you a couple different student experiences, I don’t know if these are going to fit, but we had one student bounce into campus at 9 o’clock move-in morning, and he had moved in at 8 o’clock and then had made a beeline for the LGBT resource center, and he walked in and was just like exploding, so happy, and I went “Hi, I’m Colette” and he goes “I know, I know all of your names because I’ve been studying the website, I’m just so happy to be here” and I was just like “wow this is so great, you know”. The next day I get into work, and Carrie tells me that student is here, he’s very, very, very distressed, he’s out in Kirkhof somewhere, and I’m like oh my gosh did something happen to him. I find him and he says “I’ve made a terrible mistake, I should never have come here, this is not a safe place, and I just need Page 6 �to leave.” I go “Oh my gosh did something happen?” “No I just know this is not a safe place. Inside your office is safe, but not out here” I go “So nothing happened?” “No.” “I don’t think you’ve had any experience of being safe in different places. Why don’t you just come into the center and hang out with us today and do some work for us?” So he happily stuffed envelopes for faculty members with our programming in it and was happy as a clam, but it was interesting because at that time we had our little barrier up here to create a cubby space and it felt like we just placed him inside a cocoon for about 4 hours and he just stuffed his envelopes and we were chatting and doing our stuff and students were coming in and out and he was a part of that too. After 4 hours the student that I met the first day, came to my door and just said “I’m completely over it, I don’t know what happened. I have my feet back on the ground; I’m ready to go out again, thank you for letting me stay here.” I think that’s a good example of the resource center, you know, from that perspective of being a safety net for students who have high risk, we’ve had students walk into our center who’ve had bandaged wrists from attempted suicide. We have students who have to walk over to the counseling center because they’re in such distress. Another story is, we had a freshmen come in. On our balcony there’s a big 16 foot banner during the first weeks of school that says “The LGBT resource center welcomes you to campus.” Then it says “Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender” because so many students don’t know what LGBT is. So he came in and said “I saw the banner and I stopped and I took a picture of it, and I couldn’t believe that I was in a place that had that kind of banner” So it was very sweet. And then we had a straight student come in at the beginning of the school year and she said “I came here because of this center, and I don’t identify as being a member of the community, but when I came on my campus tour, and I saw that Grand Valley had an LGBT resource center, I thought this is the kind of place I want to go to school at. It was just really a sweet story, also again of how our presence is educational to all the student body not just, it sends a clear message, that no matter where straight students are on their journey of being an ally or not being an ally, the message is clear that Grand Valley supports this community. There are a few stories. Ji: Can you describe exactly what an ally is when you describe that? I’m not really sure what that is. C: An ally is someone who is supportive of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer community and that is on the continuum, right, so it’s not just, you’ve passed over the threshold, now you’re an ally. It’s a developmental journey, that you’re really always on, so it could be that the journey started like this: You used to tell homophobic jokes, but now you don’t tell homophobic jokes anymore, because you’re moving along the journey, so now, you don’t say anything though when the homophobic jokes go on, so then you’re moving along in the journey, and now maybe you feel like, I’m just not ok with that anymore, I’m going to say something, and then maybe you move along farther and you start to incorporate friendships with people from the community. Then move along a little farther, and you include language that does not exclude the community in the way you live your life, like maybe you start saying partner instead of husband or wife because you’re aware that not everybody is heterosexual, but we live in a heterosexist society, so we’re taught to think that way, and then just to being an all-out radical ally at the other end of the continuum who is advocating for LGBT rights on campus, off campus, you know, making the commitment to the community as really part of your life. Make sense? Ji: Yeah, that makes sense Page 7 �C: So it’s not just like… and then as, I think that as you’re going on, you can’t ever say that you’ve really arrived, because you’re always becoming more and more aware of the ways that people are oppressed, you know once you’re an ally to one community it opens your eyes to the ways that other communities experience discrimination. J: What, are there any specific ways that you think Grand Valley needs to improve? C: You’re going to make me say it on tape huh? *laughs* J: *laughs* Have they improved? C: I think Grand Valley has improved tremendously, and I think Grand Valley wants to continue to improve and the intent is to make the needs of students, not just LGBT students, but straight students in educating them to be critical thinkers who can address injustice and create change and I think that is what a liberal education is about, so I think that Grand Valley is very committed to the process, it doesn’t mean that we’re perfect, it doesn’t mean that we’re there. There’s always, always more work to be done. J: Yeah. Were you involved… you said you went to college and further than that. Were you involved in any organizations in college at all? I don’t remember if you ever said. C: No, I really didn’t become an advocate until after college. I had lots of friends who were involved in Central American politics. Lots of friends who were involved in pro-choice efforts, but I think my son coming out and learning about the violence that he suffered before he came out really radicalized me. Ji: I think we learned a lot. Thank you so much. END OF INTERVIEW Page 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/59d568b21439bc197183beab094f0fdb.mp3 fd5212fe749809ca0e65f17d61748bb6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Seguin-Beighley_Colette_1 Title A name given to the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley audio interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seguin-Beighley, Colette Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, James Feenstra, Martin Bouwman, Jacob Description An account of the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley is director of the LGBT resource center at Grand Valley State University. She compares her experiences growing up in San Francisco during the civil rights movement with her experiences in West Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/563c4b04a27394be1f977baf81163178.pdf 1075825fe6b17e1be43d5a4bd40be3f7 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Cynthia Mader Interviewers: Kailey Rosema, Stephen Pratt and Erica Immekus Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/13/2012 Runtime: 00:49:36 Biography and Description Cynthia Mader is an outstanding woman who is an advocate for the advancement of civil rights for the LGBTQ community in the West Michigan area, as well as a professor in Grand Valley State University‟s College of Education. Recently, Cynthia was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Women's Commission, March 13th, 2012. Cynthia‟s involvement for social justice led her to be the First Board of Directors within the Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated, in which she organized Grand Rapids‟ first pride celebration, and fought with local public administration offices for the passing of laws that banned sexual orientation discrimination Transcript Kailey Rosema: Okay my name is Kailey Rosema and I‟m here with Erica Immekus and Stephen Pratt. We are interviewing Cynthia Mader downtown Grand Rapids at Grand Valley‟s Pew campus in the Eberhard building. It is Tuesday, March 15, 2012 at 11:30 A.M. So Cynthia if you don‟t mind starting off maybe telling us a little bit about your family, your background, childhood, growing up life... Cynthia Mader: It was pretty ordinary, umm nothing, nothing out of the ordinary. Umm I was raised on the other side of the state. I was born in 1942, umm so I‟m nearing retirement here at Grand Valley. So as I said, I was born on the other side of the state in Bay City, Michigan. Small family, mother, father, one sister. Umm, Catholic family. I went to Catholic schools, Catholic grade school, Catholic high school. And then I went to Aquinas College here in town, I moved to Grand Rapids, which of course is a Catholic College. And then, for 23 years I taught in a Catholic high school here in town, Catholic Central and West Catholic. So umm, as far as childhood, it was I‟m sure as ordinary and, umm, there was nothing uncommon about it. My parents were married, stayed married. They were middle class, maybe a little bit more comfortable than just middle class, but certainly not wealthy. I had good friends, got along in school. I wish I could tell you some horror stories and I don‟t have a single one to Page 1 �tell you! So, I don‟t know, are there other things that you would like to know about childhood and growing up? I did all the things that kids do. You know, and in high school, student council and all those Girl Scout kinds of things. Umm, I dated, the usual. KR: When you moved to Western Michigan, was that specifically for school? CM: Yes, that‟s what brought me here, was Aquinas College. And I never moved out again, I mean I never moved back to my hometown. I did go back there a lot, but I‟ve lived in Grand Rapids ever since. I love Grand Rapids, I think it‟s just a perfect town, perfect town for me anyway. Umm, but yes, I‟ve lived here all my life, and worked here all my life in the Grand Rapids area, but that‟s what brought me here. KR: Okay, good. Umm, so can you tell us a little bit about your education? CM: My education... Well, I‟ve had the good luck of being able to go to school a lot, I like to go to school. And I‟ve been able to because I‟m single, have been single. No family, no children. I don‟t know how people do it. I really don‟t know how, especially women, I don‟t know they do it, when they‟re working and have a family and try to get advanced degrees. But at any rate, I got my undergrad degree from Aquinas in English and education, and French and social studies too. Although I‟m certified to teach those, but it would be just a travesty if I ever tried to teach French! That was my undergrad. After that, again as I said I had the time and interest, I went on and earned three Masters degrees after that. A Masters in English, a Masters in library science, and a Masters in counseling. All of which helped with a teaching certificate because you can do all of those things in schools. And then, umm, I was teaching high school at the time during all of that, and then I began my PhD and finished that in 1994 I think it was. I had already come to Grand Valley to work by that time, but right around that time I finished that degree and I haven‟t stepped foot into a classroom as a student since then. Stephen Pratt: So was all of your college classes, Undergrad and Graduate, all at Aquinas? CM: No, umm, no, the undergrad was all there. Graduate was at Michigan State and U of M. SP: So you did bump around from Grand Rapids a little bit. CM: Oh yeah, yeah. And if I weren‟t working full time I probably would have gone further afield, but its pretty hard to do that and work full time. And for some reason it never occurred to me to take off time, you know as many many people do now, just go to the school that you want to go to and get a graduate assistantship and go full time, but that never occurred to me. I was always on a commuter basis. KR: Alright, so how did you start becoming involved in the LGBTQ community? CM: Well, I was relatively old before I became involved in the community. I always knew I was gay, I mean, as early as anyone knows anything like that. And I certainly had individual relationships during my adult life. Very stable, very good relationships. But I wasn‟t involved Page 2 �in the community at all. Teaching in a Catholic school, [CM chuckles] kind of, well, militates against that. You just don‟t. So it wasn‟t until I left K-12 teaching and went into higher ed that I had began to be involved in the gay community in town, and began to realize what a huge community it is. I think most people would be surprised how many men and women there are and how many close friendships and groups and activities... and well close friendships I guess is really...and long standing relationships. So at any rate, I became involved during a time when, lets see, it would have been... hmm, the 80‟s or early 90‟s, when the gay movement, it was a movement by then. It had not been a movement, there was just people, individual people. But by then it was becoming a rights of a gay movement for civil rights. And I happened to become involved around the time, of I don‟t know if you‟re aware of the Gay March on Washington? SP, KR, & EI: Yes [All nod and answer in agreement] CM: Are you? Okay good for you. Yes, so it was right...well you tell me the year, „87 perhaps? I can‟t remember. But that was exactly the time when I became involved. I was not on the march or anything, but people came back to this area absolutely fired up, having been on that march. And decided „Hey, we can put something together in this community!‟ Something that is formalized, something that is visible, something that is political and social, but something that gives a face to the community because there had been nothing of course as I said, just individual people. And so, at that point, many people joined together, coalesced around two men who had recently moved here from San Diego and were much more involved and politically savvy [CM laughs] than we were in Grand Rapids. But they were kind of the center of this. And from that grew the, umm, Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated. I don‟t know if you‟re aware of that organization. Most organizations like that, that are small and grassroots, they just don‟t last; I think two or three years is the average life, but that is still going strong, about 20 years I think it‟s been in Grand Rapids. It serves as kind of an umbrella organization, and a political organization, a political wing to meet with politicians, to meet with city officials, with schools, and just all sorts of things- It‟s an outreach kind of organization. So that‟s when I became involved and that‟s how I became involved. I was on the first Board of Directors for the first couple years- the first couple of terms I guess for about six years or so. I have not been as involved in it, aside from being a member since that time, but it is flourishing, it‟s very very active. It met with a lot of resistance at first, umm, as you can imagine Grand Rapids in 1989 or whatever that was, 1990 was not particularly hospitable to any organization like that- let alone one that had a building, had a face, had people out interviewing with the news and things like that. So that‟s the involvement. From that point on, I became less directly involved with that, and more personally involved with friends- large large groups of friends. And probably more politically involved with women‟s issues, which is often the course I think that women in the movement take. For some reason, who knows why, it seems to happen that in these local movements, umm, they tend to be gender balanced at the beginning, but then I don‟t know whether the women kind of drop out, or the men step in [CM laughs]. I‟m not sure what it is, but they tend to be pretty male, I Page 3 �don‟t want to say dominated because that‟s kind of a negative connotation, but male-led after that. Umm, I think it‟s probably because women are maybe more interested in women‟s issues: Family care, child care, things that the YWCA would be doing, rather than the gay movement. I think that men are more tuned, boy talk about stereotypes [Subtle laughter from everyone], men are more tuned to political edge. And certainly women want rights too, I‟m not in any way denying that. But I think I‟m a little far off topic too [Everyone laughs]. So that‟s how I got involved. KR: Okay, when you were, umm you said you were the First Chair of Directors. What kind of stuff did you do for the... CM: For the network? KR: Yeah. CM: Oh yeah, First Board of Directors. Oh my Lord, well first of all just to get an outfit like that up and running is just an enormous volunteer task. We worked night and day, night and day to, you know, I mean it‟s just stuff like bylaws, mission statements, vision statements- All of which is kind of peripheral, but the first main activity was the pride celebration. Now it‟s an annual celebration in June downtown. I think now it‟s around the Ford Museum, I think, although it might be elsewhere. I haven‟t gone in a while. But to have a pride celebration in Grand Rapids, a gay pride celebration in Grand Rapids at that time, Oh my Lord, umm gay people were being shot at ya know, for organizing and being visible. That of course didn‟t happen, it was down at the Calder. Music, crafts, food, it was truly a celebration. And people kind of, [CM pauses], it was a real risk. You thought you were taking a risk to go down there. And it turned out to be very calm, entertaining. There were a lot of protesters around, but they didn‟t bother the group too much. It was, [CM pauses], It‟s almost like a test of whether those fears were accurate or not. And they were accurate, people were getting killed elsewhere, but I think in the gay community a lot of people didn‟t want to be visible because they were afraid of being discriminated against, losing their job, losing their family, whatever. So it kind of became an inner test of “Is anything bad really going to happen?”. And for the most part, no! For the most part it was a nice news story. And it has continued on ever since, that particular celebration. That was the first visible event that the network decided to do. Beyond that, oh gosh, we did a lot of organizing around a city ordinance with sexual orientation as a protected class. And that took several years with a lot of debate in the newspapers everywhere. A lot of debate, a lot of talking to city officials, umm, it just went on and on and on. And finally the city commission did indeed put in the sexual orientation ordinance that says it‟s illegal in Grand Rapids to discriminate in housing and employment, so that was a huge step. Beyond that it was ongoing activities. Umm, service projects, speaker groups, education, you name it, the network was there, and still is. Page 4 �SP: Was there any point where there was just a large amount of protesters or a large push back towards the gay community? CM: Over the ordinance there was. Yes a lot of businesses got together sending out, well you could call it hate literature if you wanted to, so there was that. But by the time the network began, the worst had happened in Grand Rapids. Again, it‟s hard to say the worst had happened because it was such an invisible group. Prior to that nobody came out, it was just, I mean you simply didn‟t. There were a few gay bars, and I, I was just kind of at the edge of that, in the sense of I was too young to have been in that particular era, but I certainly know many people who talk about raids on the gay bars, and fear and arrests and things like that. As I say I was a little too young and just missed that period. By the time I got involved, the sixties had happened, the black civil rights movement was well underway, the women‟s movement was well underway, so there was a little bit more awareness. So I can‟t say that there was ever violence by any means, there was a lot of hatred though, at the visibility. And of course, ya know, West Michigan is a very nice area, and the feeling in West Michigan has always been: “I don‟t care what you do, I just don‟t want to see it, I don‟t want to see it”. Well, that‟s not the best message to send a human being [CM chuckles]. So anyway... SP: What did, uhh, what did your family and friends think and what did, uhh.. were you still Catholic at this point? CM: ..mhmm.. Still am, uh huh. In kind of a cultural sense… SP: So what kind of feedback did you get back from… CM: ... None from my family. I never spoke about it to them…[SP says an understanding “no”] never spoke it about it to them… Um, I lived 150 miles away so it was easy not to talk about it. Um, they would visit here, and, you know, for a week and a half you can… you can live any way you want and not have your friends around or anything like that. Um, my friends by then… friends were friends… there was… [CM stutters while thinking of what to say] I‟ve never had a bad experience. I really have to say that. And I wish I could give you something juicy for your, for your tape here [group laughter] but I‟ve personally never had a bad experience. Maybe I‟ve protected myself, I don‟t know, maybe I‟ve isolated myself and not put myself out there, I don‟t think that‟s the case though. I think I‟ve had extraordinarily good friends and extraordinarily um, oh, well informed friends. So for me, that hasn‟t been much of an issue, however, there‟s something, I…I… I can‟t quite explain it and you‟re young enough so you might not get this but there‟s something just weird about saying I am gay, because all it talks about is who you fall in love with, that‟s all it talks about. And yet it becomes for some people, such an identifying trait and, you know that, “that‟s my gay friend” [CM laughs] um, rather than that‟s my friend. So, its, its just, it was a weird feeling all of that time and still is to a certain extent. I, um, I happen to teach grad classes that have a lot to do with social justice issues just like your U.S. diversity. And when we get to um, sexuality, I articulate the fact that I‟m a lesbian. [CM chuckles] It‟s kind of interesting, over the years, because I‟ve taught the class a long time, over the years, the Page 5 �reaction is different. It‟s much calmer, there‟s not, “Oh my God!”, you know, which it used to be. Um, people are much less, you know on the discussion board, much less vitriolic and I uh… gay people… [CM mocks former anti-gays views on keeping their sexuality out of the public‟s eye] “I don‟t care what they do, just keep it out of my face.” There‟s much, much less of that. So, um, the times have changed, really, times have moved forward. It‟s not there yet by any means, I don‟t know if it ever will be, but, but it‟s improving. KR: Um, when you were growing up, was there anything that further influenced you or your involvement or your identity like people, articles, news? CM: It was so oblivious. I mean I knew I wasn‟t experiencing the same things my friends were. I knew I wasn‟t falling in love with that boy in geometry [CM chuckles]. But, that was about as close as I came to, to realizing anything. I don‟t think it was until, I don‟t know, maybe late college, early… excuse me, late high school, early college, that I even put a name to what that difference was. All I knew was that, I knew enough not to talk about it. I guess I knew something, didn‟t I? I knew enough not to talk about it. Um, but mostly I just knew that I was not experiencing the same feelings that they were experiencing and talking about. And so, as far as influences, that too is hard to say. Um, there was nothing… the subject was never spoken of. Neither plus nor minus in my hometown which was a small hometown, catholic school, um, so it wasn‟t spoken about… I knew, I knew something was wrong, I thought I‟d outgrow it [CM chuckles]. Uh, so I can‟t name in influence at all. I can name good influences on, on, on the way that I grew to think about things. And the fact that I‟ve never really experienced that so called catholic guilt. I think my catholic upbringing was a little bit different then many people. It was quite enlightened, it was quite forward thinking, and so I… I kind of experienced social discomfort. Worrying about what people would think, but I never experienced that guilt, that religious guilt. So… and then beyond that, college… of course, after… by that time you know, you start to read, you start to talk, you start to inform yourself, and so yeah, those were influences on me. But, beyond that, I don‟t think… I just read widely and have followed the movement for, even before it was a movement and evolved with it. And, um… that‟s, that‟s it as far as influences. My own reading has been the biggest influence… and then um… But not growing up, there, I can‟t say one way or another at all. [CM shakes her head in disbelief of having any influences] KR: When you were working in the network, was there anyone, or anything, or an event that empowered you to become more involved or take more actions? CM: I think it was the whole series of events of just being out there. Because what it does is it tells you, nothing‟s going to happen. [Cynthia chuckles due to her ironic realization]. And not only does nothing happen, it, I think the biggest thing that happens internally. Because to go through, you know I look back to when I was teaching high school 23 years, 23 years of not being, of not identifying, not articulating who I really was, not talking about any of my outside work friends or anything like that; I think it sends a terrible message to yourself that there‟s Page 6 �something about you that can‟t be spoken about, that can see the light of day. So my involvement with the network and with that growing community of friends [Stephen Pratt coughs] allowed me to, to just abandon that way of life, I never, never ever repeat that again. KR: Um, let‟s see. Was there um, before you became involved you said there wasn‟t much, um, going on for civil rights… [in the LGBTQ community] CM: Not in the LGBT community, right, yeah. Definitely the, uh, the black community and I was very involved with that. And if you want an influence, probably that was, the whole civil rights, black civil rights movement influenced me deeply and, and made me realize, um, the political possibilities, um, how, how you could make change, how things have happened, how, how sometimes power is so subtle that people don‟t even realize that they‟re being subordinated, all of those things. The civil rights movement had a huge influence on me. The women‟s movement after that had a big influence on me also. In many ways, in many ways they‟re parallel, in many ways they‟re not, but in many ways they‟re parallel. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] SP: So between the two movements, there was, you had, did you have a lot of involvement in both at the time? CM: Yes I did, yes I did. It gave me a way of thinking. So that, but even then, you know, I thought well, but, but being gay is different; that‟s not, that‟s not civil, that‟s not African American, that‟s not women‟s movement, that‟s something different that‟s off to the side, don‟t, there‟s nothing to be involved there because that‟s quiet, silent, invisible. But it began to give me a way of thinking, mhmm, it allowed me then to pursue that. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] KR: How are you involved in the African American communities, like you were saying? CM: Yeah, well, bear in mind that that didn‟t really flourish until, well, it flourished, but it didn‟t come to the general public‟s attention until in the late fifties and sixties. At that time I was in college and I was at Aquinas [college] and Aquinas [college] is a very, very, um, good institution when it comes to social justice issues. So, uh, we marched, we sang, we licked envelopes, we did all sorts of things in that, uh, in that period of time. And then, after that I was teaching high school and so there were involvements there also, with, you know, African American student groups and, and, oh gosh, there were workshops, there was, oh it was the Vietnam war. I mean you talk about a time that was exciting, and, and just “wow” something going on all the time regarding civil rights. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] KR: Um, going back to your work in the LGBTQ community, [CM says “mhmm”] um, did you ever do any work outside of Grand Rapids at all? CM: No. Um, I don‟t know if you‟d like to get into this, but Grand Valley, would you like to talk about work at Grand Valley? Page 7 �KR: Yeah. SP: Of course. CM: Okay, um [CM clears her throat], well, hmm hmm. When I came to Grand Valley… I knew a lot of people here already because I lived in the area so I already had a lot of gay and lesbian friends here at Grand Valley already. But, again, a very invisible community, very invisible. And, and now, things like domestic partner benefits are a given. Things like um, protection, sexual orientation, and the affirmative action and equal protection clause, absolutely a given. But at that time, I don‟t think anyone breathed the word, um, it was just circles of friends, obviously. But as far as the university, there was nothing. And you may be familiar with some of the climate studies that have been done here at Grand Valley. I don‟t know that within your time here but about every, I don‟t know, every five to ten years, Grand Valley has done a, a so called climate study. Mostly to kind of gauge the temperature on women‟s issues and, uh, race issues and things like that. Well the first one was done shortly after I was here. And through that study, it became obvious that there was a fair population of, of gay and lesbian people, staff and faculty, who were not particularly, who didn‟t really feel like the, the… [CM chuckles] Grand Valley family, that, that we all talk about, you know, we really kind of felt second class. Because there were no benefits, none of that for families and things like that. So, as many of these things happen, it happened with a few people. I and… I‟m not going to name names because, just because, um, I don‟t know if they‟re interested in being online with this. But I and about four other women started to approach the president, uh, President Lubbers at that time. And bless his heart, President Lubbers is a good man but I think he was… pardon me President Lubbers if you listen to this [EI chuckles] but I think he was a little bit clueless uh, that there were even people on his campus… [CM laughs] And, and I think he wanted to do the right thing but of course, politically, it would be very, very difficult for him to back any kind of gay/ lesbian stuff in this town. Not with the donors that donated to Grand Valley which were very, very conservative group. And so, he encouraged us, but, I can‟t say it was out-front. We then began to expand into a more formal organization which has now become the Faculty Staff Association of Gay and Lesbian faculty and staff and we started to get together and talk about can we do as a group, not anymore as individuals, but what can we do as a group. One of the things we wanted, because every other institution had it, is domestic partner benefits. I don‟t know if you‟re aware, aware of what domestic partner benefits are just as in, um, um, straight couples. The spouse or partner, spouse, um, can get health benefits and all the other health benefits that the university affords. Um, we of course couldn‟t. And so we really began lobbying for that. We started talking to board members, we started talking to the various organizations on campus; the faculty senate, the AP association, um, women‟s commission. Every possible, conceivable organization and got their backing. And finally, after about two years of talking and saying “here we are, we‟re decent people, ya know, we‟re okay” uh, and there are about fifty of us, finally President Lubbers decided he that would back it, he would back the request for domestic partner benefits. The only thing is he wanted it to be kept fairly quiet so that the newspapers didn‟t jump on it before it was done and just ruin the whole thing. So he was, um, all set to put it for a word to the Page 8 �board of trustees and somewhere in that week in between, the newspaper did get a hold of it and there was a front page story saying Grand Valley is going to start to give domestic partner benefits. And I guess, from what I understand, he was inundated by donors. Saying, “uh uhh, [CM laughs in disbelief] our money is out of here, if you, if you do that, we will not allow that. If you go ahead and do domestic partner benefits, we‟re out of here, you will get no more money from us”. And they were big names, and you can imagine who some of those big names were. Many of our buildings are named after them. And he backed down, and it was a very difficult time, I‟m sure for him, because he had to back down publicly. After being quoted in the Grand Rapids Press as saying it was the right thing to do, six days later, he had to be quoted in the Grand Rapids Press as saying, well, perhaps I was hasty. And it was a very sad time, I‟m sure for him, and it certainly was for us. Then, there was a new president, and this goes on forever… There was a new president, new change in administration and they were no more willing, no more. That was President Murray‟s administration. He was only here for two years. He was very in tuned with the business community and just did not see it as a very wise thing to do. So… Um, we kept talking and talking and talking and finally about five years ago, the board, with very little fan fair instituted domestic benefits for LGBT in faculty and staff. And that was a huge victory. [It] sounds like such a little thing but we were; I think Grand Valley was the last in the state to do it. It might‟ve been second from last in the higher education institution. So that‟s one example here at Grand Valley. And things have just done a complete turnaround! I‟m not saying that it‟s perfect here for, um, especially here for students, it might be tough. But for faculty and staff, it‟s light years different from what it used to be. There‟s no, there‟s no negative feelings, there‟s no need to be invisible, there just isn‟t. It‟s a totally different environment. Some people may choose to for whatever reason, but totally different environment with a very active association. Uh, there‟s the LGBT center; that in itself took, uh, five years I think to convince them to get. Uh, yeah, they agreed to it in principle… [CM mocks the former Grand Valley politics] “yes yes yes yes, it‟s needed in principle…” But for the… We joke, for the first two or three years, the center, the center bear in mind, was a bookshelf [CM laughs in disbelief] over in, over in Kirkoff, or over in student services, I can‟t remember. And then, as you probably know, Professor Milt Ford really took it in hand and became the director; he was appointed director and then it became a center. Colette Beighley is the director now… It‟s a wonderful, wonderful resource. Sometimes I look at their programming; the movies and the speakers they‟re bringing in and I think, my gosh, ya know, it‟s like U of M, we‟re big time! Really fascinating programming and kind of, um, kind of, some of it‟s on the edge, ya know, they do a wonderful job. KR: Are you involved with them at all right now, currently? CM: Uhm, oh I certainly uh support. I am a member. I uhm, Being here in uhm, Grand Rapids makes it a little tough to be as involved on campus as I used to be and as I wanted to be. I, we used to be on campus, and you know you were a short walk away from everybody, it‟s a little bit different here now but, so no I am not as involved no. But I am certainly, not as directly involved, but very involved supportively. Mhmm. Page 9 �KR: Awesome, uhm, do you know what kind of projects they are currently working on at all or... CM: No, I think it‟s mostly to improve to, to just do more of the same... oh by the way are you familiar with the film, the LGBT history of West Michigan? SP: Ya, that‟s what we watched in class CM: Oh you did watch that SP: Actually we watched… [All talking at once] CM: Okay..I was, I don‟t know if you recognize.. people come up to me on the street and they say “those glasses, where have I met you before?” and we finally realized it was in that documentary! I‟m serious it has happened more than once! Which shows you how often I get glasses, get new glasses. [laughs] But yes, yeah that uhm.. but oh, what a wonderful documentary that was and the center was part of that. SP: I know that that video kinda touched on uhm, a lot of, a lot of people in the gay community that were involved with… CM: Oh, yes! SP: AIDS and STDS and… CM: Oh, yes! SP: Things of that sort, what kind of impact did that have on the Grand Rapids community? And especially personally? CM: Well, I certainly lost of gay male friends. A LOT. I can‟t tell you how many, [sighs] uhm memorial services and funerals that I might speak at or attend. A lot.. Uhm.. This might sound odd because I‟m on the one hand, AIDS was oh, in some ways it convinced the bigoted community that, this was God‟s punishment on gay people. That there you would see bumper stickers uhh, “AIDS IS GOD‟S PUNISHMENT” you‟d see bumper stickers saying that! [Explained in astonished voice] So anyway, on the one hand it had that just devastating affect politically in the community on the other hand I don‟t want in any way to at all call it a blessing but it gave a human face [pauses] to the gay community. Once people started realizing, oh my gosh. The guy I used to work with, just died of AIDS. Oh my god, I loved him. [mocking demeanor of such surprised individuals] And that of course happened, over and over and over again. I think people began to realize its not some fringe group, these are people that are integrated in my life, these are people I know. So, I would never say AIDS was a blessing on the gay community but it sure had some good results, I think. Mhmm. Uhm, and and its another group here in town as you have said, in the documentary, that the AIDS resource center was mmm, the work that they did at that time, that nobody else would, nobody would even visit those Page 10 �men. Who were sick and dying in their homes, uhm, AIDS resource center was just a magnificent work. KR: Were you involved with the AIDS resource center? CM: No, I‟m sorry to say that I wasn‟t, no. I mean as part of the network we have supported all of that, publicized all of it. But, no as far as directly working with it I didn‟t. KR: Uhm, how do you think the movie or documentary impacted people, [CM placed coffee cup on desk] not only at Grand Valley, but within our community. CM: Well you know, I, I would almost ask you that question. When I first saw it I was at the premiere showing of it, here on campus. It was over at Lucemore, it was just this fall. And it was I don‟t know if you have been told this but there was 700 people. It was uh, uh not a sellout, it was free had nothing to sell but it was an overflow audience, 200 had to watch it from another room or something like that. It was of course beautifully received there because a lot of the people who were there are knowing that it was going to be shown for the first time were people who had been involved historically for all of those years. I happened that night, to be sitting next to a student I had taught in high school. Uhm, she was a person who has been quite active in the Grand Rap… She was a straight woman, uhm but very active in the Grand Rapids community within theatre and things like that. Well I happened to be sitting next to her I mean we had [stammers] knew I mean we had seen each other through the years [breath] uh and she had probably knew that uh that I was gay, uh but her reaction was more interesting to me than the reaction of all the other people, they loved it. But after, she said I had no idea to think that when you would come in and teach us Shakespeare, [CM chuckles] that that night you were out there doing all these political things and meeting with the mayor and signing city ordinances and things like that. She said she had no idea that any of that was going on at that time, she just found that fascinating. [breathe] so uh, the time that I saw it it was very well received, I haven‟t I have shown portions in my class uh, oh the portion I show is the Jerry Crane portion. The teacher, the teacher in Byron Center that was fired and who subsequently died, I showed that and the minister who was talking uh, I knew Jerry Crane, not well, but I knew him a little bit, and his partner Randy. Uhm, so. What was the reaction when you saw it in class? KR: Uhm, I enjoyed it personally. I just thought that it was cool that people in the community at Grand Valley were spreading awareness and… CM: yeah, yeah. I was just delighted that Grand Valley had a part in it. And that‟s, that‟s the LGBT center, that‟s Collete Bagley, Bigley. Who is responsible for getting this out there, all the time. She‟s really, she‟s a dynamicist really. SP: It was definitely an eye opener, that‟s for sure. CM: Ah SP: I‟m sure it was to a lot of people Page 11 �CM: Really!? SP: Especially in our class CM: Huh..In the sense that?... SP: In the sense that, I was just unaware and that I had no idea CM: Uh huh, of all that had been going on SP: Right, yeah especially how far it had gone back into the history of Grand Rapids… CM: Oh, yeah SP: .. and community CM: and..and of course the people, that you may not recall, but the very first person talking, uh, she was just sitting alone in her room, and she had shorts on, and I can‟t remember…she was talking about the gay bar scene for women, uhm, very good friend of mine, and she had been involved during that period. Pre-dating me, she she‟s the same age as me, but as I say I kind of got involved in the community later. I wish that somebody could do a documentary on that scene, that prehistory of Grand Rapids where everybody was closeted. Uhm, and the only place that you could meet, was in the, in gay bars, and homes of course. Jeff Smith the person who did the documentary says he is thinking of doing that, probably would need to do it fairly soon because that that‟s an older population, older even than even I am, or older than even she is you know. For the most part, those women would now be in their 80s maybe, most of them, late 70s and 80s.. [pause] so, well I‟m glad that you like the documentary. KR: Mhmm.. uhm, lets see. How do you think that, like throughout the years of being an activist, uhm.. how do you think your views, did they change at all or… CM: No, I think they just became more uhm deep rooted, deep seeded, yeah. And in class when we talk about it, students often ask me if I would change, if I could. Uhm, uhh [breathes out in awe], No the answer is absolutely not. I said uh well ya know, it would be a whole lot easier for you if you did, or it would have been a lot. I think it had, I think it has given me, again I don‟t want to say that it‟s a blessing but in a way it is, I think it‟s given me kind of uh, uh a double vision. Uh, when I was growing up and younger people would say things about African Americans they would say things about, in my home town, Mexicans, they would say things about uh, single mothers, illegitimate children [laughs] and they would say things about gay people. And I, I can remember thinking, hmmm I know that‟s not true what they are saying, I know that‟s not true about me, and I know that‟s not true about what they are saying about my friends, maybe it‟s not true what they are saying about black people, or Mexican people or illegitimate children, which is what they were called, or single mothers uhm. Or welfare, maybe its not true about them either. So it has kind of given me uh, uhm like a second lense almost, to Page 12 �look through. So, no. My my answer feelings haven‟t changed, or my thoughts, they‟ve just grown more convinced. SP: Whenever students would ask you if you could change would you, did you ever, has there ever been like uh, a jealousy of not having a family like a like the normal [sarcasm], the American family CM: The American dream? [Chuckles] SP: Yeah, the American dream type of deal CM: [laughs] it really has never bothered me, I think it might some people, although with things developing as they are now that‟s gonna be possible, it already is many, many people are already living lives made it possible. But no, it‟s never been uh, a regret of mine or anything. Uh, uh. Sometimes, as I get older I wonder, hmmm who‟s gonna take care of me when I‟m in the hollowed home [sarcasm and laughs] things will work out. KR: Uhm, let‟s see. [pause] Is there uhm EI: I know you talked about how you said that you can like see changes occurring, uhm what within the community can you like truly like see a difference in like in especially like within Grand Valley if you have seen anything CM: Oh, just the openness EI: Just the openness? CM: Oh my Lord Yes. [With enthusiasm] Yeah. Just the openness. Uh, there is no other way to say it. It‟s, uh a non-issue now. And, and, and its not that its not supported I mean it it‟s an issue at the LGBT center and its an issue whenever there is harassment and stuff like that, its… it it its [stammers] just like its different era we‟re breathing. In uh, in society in general, I think that to me the biggest difference, I never [emphasized] would have in million years dream that we would talk about gay marriage. Ever! [laughs] uhm, I don‟t it will happen, it will certainly happen in our lifetimes, but ah, who would ever have thought that when you consider 25, 30 years ago, and even today some people are afraid to self-identify and now we are talking about the possibility of gay marriage, woah! Its, its remarkable and when you get discouraged, it‟s helpful to look back at at things. Doesn‟t mean there‟s any less resentment and hate out there, because there is a lot of it, but it‟ll change. Mhmm. KR: Where do you see uhm, the civil rights of the LGBTQ community going in the future. Like what topics may be.. CM: I think gay marriage is the ultimate KR: Mhmm Page 13 �CM: Mhmm, [breathes] in fact [laughs] those of us who came up through the harder times, ya know when you come up through hard times you kind of develop a sense of comradeship and we‟re all in this together against the world some, of us have said oh, when we‟re like everybody else [chuckles] maybe we‟re gonna miss that, that comradeship but ya know for African Americans it was known as black pride at that time uhm, gay pride, maybe we‟re going to miss kind of fighting against the world. Just us against them. But if so, it‟s worth it for civil rights. I mean it it it it [stammers] if we did miss that, that‟s a small thing to miss, yeah.. it‟s a good trade off to have civil rights, SP: So I know that you said that it throughout, that you‟ve seen a change throughout the straight community where they have become more accepting… CM: Mhmmm SP: ...is that, what is your reaction to the west Michigan lifestyle, if you will, that that community has become more accepting of the gay community CM: [stutters] change in them or change in? SP: A change in them, a change in... CM: In them? SP: ...how do you think, how do you feel that they, that you‟ve gotten the western Michigan people to become more accepting CM: Uhm, it was never overt hatred before, so its hard ya know its hard to say SP: Mhmm CM: Now that there is, because it was never overt before all I can say is, it it theres not the tension. Uhm, nope. Uh, you you might think twice before you self-identify, or or or are open, you might think twice, but..but by the time you think the third time you think, who cares. [laughs] they‟ll, ya know like what are they gonna do. Now that‟s not everybody. There are a lot of people who have a whole lot at stake and who, simply can‟t, I mean I‟m not in a perfect position for heaven‟s sakes, I‟m tenured faculty, you can‟t get much more safe than that. I really mean that I‟ve never had to worry about employment. Employment is a huge issue, uh in some cases uh, custody battle. Huge issue with some parents worry „I have to give up my children‟ if I‟m open. So, mhmm. KR: Uhm. So, do you have anything else you would like to share with us, any of your stories or…? CM: [laughs] Uhm, [pause] I was saying to my my partner we‟ve been together about 23 years now. She says „what are you going to say this morning, when they interview? [laughs] You‟re not going to say anything you‟re not supposed to are you, what are you gonna talk about?‟ uhm, Page 14 �actually we‟ve covered a whole lot of ground. Uhm. Nothing comes to my mind, although I am more than happy to share anything else that you can think of. KR: Uhm, do you guys have any more questions? SP: I‟m out of questions. CM: out of questions? KR: Alrighty, well uhm thank you so much. CM: Absolutely! KR: This concludes the oral history. CM: Absolutely! KR: Yep, Thank you, for your time and also thanks to Grand Valley for putting on this program. CM: Yes. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely that also. Should I be…should I sign this as far as a release form… END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b16f9b03fcbc64efb7da5844ef188e4c.mp3 bfe1209a2739b884102ec073862bb5dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Mader_Cynthia Title A name given to the resource Cynthia Mader audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mader, Cynthia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rosema, Kailey Pratt, Stephen Immekus, Erica Description An account of the resource Cynthia Mader is an outstanding woman who is an advocate for the advancement of civil rights for the LGBTQ community in the West Michigan area, as well as a professor in Grand Valley State University's College of Education. Recently, Cynthia was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Women's Commission, March 13th, 2012. Cynthia's involvement for social justice led her to be the First Board of Directors within the Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated, in which she organized Grand Rapids' first pride celebration, and fought with local public administration offices for the passing of laws that banned sexual orientation discrimination Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Homophobia Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/94d79f02423858a8258b19408d9aa3a0.pdf 7da630bdf7af9b47c15fb2e7ae3c1f3b PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Debra Sawinski Interviewers: Brian Schreur, Laura Sawinski, Marcus Bell and Robin Moening Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/28/2011 Biography and Description Debra Sawinski discusses how she started the first all girls track team at her high school and the struggles that came along with in. Transcript LAURA: Oral history project. We are here on November 28, 2011. I am Laura Sawinski and I am here with Debra Bussing Sawinski to talk about her involvement in the formation of the track team at Fruitport High School in Fruitport, Michigan. First I need you to sign our consent form. This states that you agree to participate in the interview and that you agree to have your name published and if not you can state that now. DEBRA: I agree. LAURA: It also says that you understand the interview will take approximately 2 hours and that you can withdrawal from the project whenever you feel necessary without any prejudice. You also agree that upon completion of the interview the recording and consent of that recorded belongs to Grand Valley State University. You understand that any restrictions to use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. You understand that upon completion of this interview and signing this release the recordings, photographs and one copy of the transcript will be kept in Grand Valley State University library special collections in Allendale, Michigan. So here you can wish to remain anonymous or to be identified by name. DEBRA: Identified by name. My initials? LAURA: Yes. To start this interview and to find out your experiences with starting the track team and how you got to that point.. .11 you could tell us about your childhood, what it was like growing up, and just the background of you as a child. DEBRA: Well I grew up in the country and our neighborhood was kind of unique. My grandfather had owned all the land and he divided it up so all ofmy neighbors were also related, my aunts and uncles, cousins and I.. .wejust did everything together and maybe that’s where I got.. .to the point where I liked running because we had to run in between each other’s houses all the time to- - because we had no Page 1 �tel—in our house we had no telephone so in order to use the telephone we ran to somebody else’s house. LAURA: And explain your family, how many siblings you had or what it was like growing up being so close to your family or extended family. DEBRA: I have four sisters, two of them are older two of them are younger. Probably the two older ones we did more things together because we’re closer in age. And I. ..being that close to our relatives we had a shared feel that we did a lot of different things, activities. It was just a good neighborhood. Everybody watched out for everybody else and we did lots of things together, we-- that’s who we played with, had baseball fields set up, did all kinds of things together. So it was a really—just a really neat experience growing up. LAURA: And how long did you guys live in the same proximity was it until you graduated high school or did some move along the way? DEBRA: Well some ofmy older cousins moved away but we all basically lived here and all of us went to the same high school and graduated from the same high school. LAURA: And where did you attend school throughout your whole year, where did you start with your first year until the year you graduated? DEBRA: Went to Fruitport Elementary, Fruitport Middle School, and Fruitport High School. LAURA: And what was your experience in general? Did you like school, did you enjoy going and what part did you enjoy the most? DEBRA: For the most part I liked school; it was a good experience all the way through. Of course there are parts that you don’t like more than others.. .let’s see. I didn’t like Spanish very well but I did really well in social studies. I took every history class, every geography class that there was available so, I liked English classes. I have—I was accepted into honors lit which was a really fun class and had a really good time with that and... For the most part I did very well in school and liked it. LAURA: What kind of treatment did you receive during your school years? Did you feel that you were treated fairly well or were some kids treated better than others? Or with you being a female did that ever effect how you were treated or did you feel like it was pretty equal across the board? DEBRA: I think some kids were treated better than others, just their personalities or whatever it may have been. I know that I had to ride the bus and I know even our bus driver had her favorites and— LAURA: Were you one of them? DEBRA: No. I was not. Usually it was the boys that were a favorite, only certain ones. And. . .but for the most part I feel I was treated fairly. I don’t remember ever being.. .not.. .because I was a girl not being treated fairly. I think that across the board it was pretty equal. Page 2 �LAURA: And what year were you when you decided or thought that you would want to start a girl’s track team? DEBRA: Senior year of high school. LAURA: And why did you decide that you wanted to start that track team even though in Fruitport there hadn’t been a girl’s track team? DEBRA: There were about four of us seniors who all liked some portion of track whether it was running or shot-put or whatever it may have been. We all liked that part. In gym class we did very well in those areas. And when we were seniors, and especially one of the girls was--had a boyfriend who was on the guy’s track team and we thought it would be fun to have a girl’s track team and a good experience for us. LAURA: Do you have a main motivation for starting the team or just was it something you guys enjoyed and thought why not? DEBRA: We thought it was time that the girls had a track team. Other schools had girl’s track teams and Fruitport had never had one. So we thought it was time that they had one and if we were going to have anything to do with it we had to do it quickly because we were all seniors and.. .so we just started to move forward in that just kind of talking about it among ourselves and then figuring out what to do to get one going. LAURA: So is there a reason why you waited until you were a senior to start the formation of n a track team? DEBRA: I think we just didn’t, we didn’t think that we could do it, that most the sports werem started by either a faculty member or the need to have it and I don’t think that any of us thought that we would— could or would be able to do what we did in starting the team. LAURA: Who was the most influential you think in helping you start the team. Like you said there was faculty that normally had started it was there a faculty member that had helped you? Or anyone in particular? Or did you feel like you as a collective group kind of had to head it up and convince others that you guys needed a track team? DEBRA: I think that there were the four of us and we went to the athletic director at that time was Dale Levondowski and he told us that there was no way that we were going to have a girl’s track team that year. So at that point we went to the guys coach, the boy’s track team coach, and we asked him ifwe could run with the boy’s team and he said yes. LAURA: Were there other girls sports at that time or what options did girls have? DEBRA: There were I believe girls softball, and cheerleading, and I. . . girls basketballLAURA: So why— DEBRA: Oh swimming and gymnastics. Page 3 �LAURA: So why did the athletic director say no way to a track team for girls? DEBRA: First of all he said that we wouldn’t be able to get a coach, we didn’t have the schedule set up, there was no money for uniforms, there.. . it would be a problem with bus transportation. He gave us all the--all the things that involved mostly I believe it was money. That all the things were rooted in that, beside the fact that. . .1 think it would have been more work for him and he just didn’t feel like that-that he didn’t want to do that at that time. LAURA: So with the guys track coach was his idea that yea just come run with us or was he influential or did he try to help you form a team of your own or did he just figure you can just join us? DEBRA: Well he said that if we couldn’t have a team of our own that we could run with the guys and because it was a non-contact sport that would have been allowed. LAURA: So when you went to high school you couldn’t play, like a girl couldn’t play football? DEBRA: No. LAURA: Or wrestling? DEBRA: No, because it was a—it could only be a non-contact sport. And so he said we could run at— come and run with the guys and—and he didn’t cut us any slack for being girls. LAURA: Should he have? DEBRA: No, but I mean we—we had started out a little later with practice than the guys, and I just remember our first—our first practice with the guys it was a five and a half mile run, and some of us made it. So—and it was really interesting because the coach, the coaches, there were two of them, Mike Thompson was the head coach, they drove the car and followed us, we ran on the roads in Fruitport. No, he was, I believe the guys coaches were very, very supportive of us having a girls team. Thought we deserved one, should have one, and that’s why they said that they would go along with us joining the team and supporting us in any way that they could so that we would be able to get a team eventually if it wasn’t that year then hopefully the next year. LAURA: And so you were allowed to practice with them. Were you allowed to run in meets with them, or did you get a team before the meets occurred? DEBRA: We ran with them in practice and worked with them and—and I have to say all the guys were very supportive of us and gave us helpful hints and different things. They were still telling us that we could not have a girl’s track team. So this meet came up, it was an invitational, actually it was held at Grand Valley, the indoor track, and we rode with the guys on the bus and we got to the—the track and there happened to be a few other schools that had girls track teams that came too. And I remember that we had to wait outside the locker rooms until the boys were all done in the locker rooms before they’d let us go in and get changed for the meet. And then we ran in the meet with the guys. They did have separate heats for the girls but we were able to run in the meet and it was after that, that the Page 4 �administration of the school and especially Mr. Levondowski, figured that we were serious about having a girls track team. LAURA: So at that invitational how many guys would you say were there? DEBRA: Overall.., all the schools? LAURA: Yes. DEBRA: Hundreds.. .hundreds. LAURA: And how many girls? DEBRA: Oh less than a hundred, maybe fifty. Of all the teams together because we went into one locker room but there were hun—there were multiple schools and so there were hundreds of boys there to run. LAURA: And at that particular invitational did you feel like there was one school who had way more girls than others or was it kind of a few on each team? DEBRA: There were a couple of schools that fielded a whole team just about for girls. A few others had a pretty good amount. Our school we probably at that one, we—there were, at that point probably five or six from Fruitport that went. LAURA: So as you guys came up with this idea, how did you, the group of you so there was five of you? DEBRA: There was four of us that started out. LAURA: Four of you. Were you friends prior or how did you kind of come together to say hey wouldn’t it be cool to have a track team? DEBRA: We were all friends and we were in this one class together and we sat together—we had to go the library a lot and we ended up always at the same table and talking amongst ourselves I think that that’s really where the formation really started to take place just because we were talking hey we would like to be able to do the—we would like to be able to run and to have a team. LAURA: With the administration did the athletic director ever say hey we have a few sports for girls can’t you just join one of them? Why do you have to make your own team? DEBRA: No. I don’t remember him ever saying that and we found out later that actually there was an equal rights amendment or something along that line that legally they couldn’t tell us no you can’t have—we won’t give you a team but it was the consensus that they would do everything for us not to have a team. Telling us there was no money, there was nothing but ifwe would have taken it to court and even though we didn’t know about it we didn’t know that there was that—that equal rights thing. We had no idea at that time because it had just passed and now of course they even have more rights, the girls do to play sports. Back then it was something new and I think they used the fact of the financial part of it to—to stop us from having a team. Page 5 �LAURA: And do you think for him or others who opposed you that was the main thing? Not that they thought girls shouldn’t or couldn’t run but just the money? DEBRA: I think money was the main thing and then trying to put it all together in a short amount of time would have been—was more work. LAURA: And how long did you have? What was your time frame? Just your senior year? DEBRA: Yes. We—well we started early spring asking for a team and of course it’s a spring sport so had to be done fast. LAURA: So what was your first step in forming the team? Was your first step going to the athletic director? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: And did you have anything prepared for him or did you just go in there with these ideas you had talked about? DEBRA: I think we just went in with our ideas and asking ifwe could get a team. LAURA: And his first response was? DEBRA: No way. It wasn’t going to happen this year. And that’s when we said—actually the words were used ok we’ll run with the guys. LAURA: And what did he say? DEBRA: He goes—he shook his shoulders and said ok. But I don’t think that he thought that we were going to stick it out and I think that that’s—he wasn’t going to go to all the work when he didn’t think that we would—we would stick it out for the season. LAURA: So he didn’t feel like you were actually committed to this. DEBRA: Yea. LAURA: So how did you feel when you couldn’t have a team when he told you no and you had to run with the guys? Did that anger you or were you like well, we’ll just do this for now? Or did that motivate you more? DEBRA: Yes. We were more determined than ever to prove that we were going to run with the guys and that we were going to make it work, that Fruitport was going to have a girl’s track team. And at that point I think that’s when we enlisted more girls we had a. . . like a little petition so to speak ofhow many—we went up and asked girls if they would like to run, if there was a team would they be interested in running and we did that. LAURA: Was there a number that you had to get to form a team? Page 6 �DEBRA: No, but the more we had the better because there were a lot of events and that we knew that ten of us it would be hard to have a team and be able to even have enough people for the events so we knew we had to get more than that. LAURA: So at your first meet how many did you have? DEBRA: The invitational when we went to Grand Valley? Or at the first— LAURA: When you had a girl’s team. DEBRA: We probably had, well I want to say around twenty. We ended up for the season having 22 all together that stuck it out. We doubled up and made sure that we had somebody in every event. LAURA: So you were able to cover every event? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: When you first started running with the guys were any of the girls better than the guys? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: Any how did the guys feel about that? DEBRA: They ma—they would tease us. Saying that we were fast or whatever and back then that, that meant that you weren’t always a nice girl but they, they, though they were really good. They really pushed us and wanted us to excel and so I don’t think any of them were very.. .oh down us or anything and if we beat them they thought that was pretty good. LAURA: So you ran in the invitational at Grand Valley with the guys but in separate heats. Were there any other meets that you ran with the guys? Were you ever combined like for relays or were they always separate even though you were at the same meet? DEBRA: It was always separate. We never run a combined guy run one leg and a girl we never did that, no they were completely separate. LAURA: How did you do that with only five girls then? DEBRA: Because by the time the first meet, dual meet, came we—we had a team. LAURA: But at Grand Valley you just ran...? DEBRA: We ran what we could. There was a—a relay team and then a couple of other events that we were able to run in. LAURA: So you just weren’t able to run in everything? DEBRA: Right. Page 7 �LAURA: And how would you say your support from your family was kind of from the beginning of the first formation of the idea and then when the team actually formed and after that. What would you say the progression of support from your family and other friends who weren’t on the track team? DEBRA: I would say our support from our friends was good and they came out to cheer us on. Me personally I did not have much support from my family. I had to go to someone else—actually to get to a practice a lot of times if the practice wasn’t right after school if it was a day when school wasn’t on because we did often have Saturday practices, I would have to run to my friends house that lived on the next road over and hitch a ride with her into school with her because I wasn’t able to use my parents car. The only one from my family who ever saw me run in the—in track was my youngest—younger sister Penny. Neither my mom nor my dad ever saw me run. My mom wasn’t very supportive of it at all. She thought it was foolish and didn’t know why a girl would want to run track. My dad was a little bit better about it. He—he worked at night so he couldn’t come to the meets because he had, was either at work or going to sleep. But he did ask me about it and so each time we had a meet I would tell him about my race and how well I did and that and but as far as the rest of it—my one older sister Denise probably would have done very well if there had been a track team when she was in school because she could always beat me no matter how much I practiced or anything in track, she was, she was very very good and would have done well and I always have wished there had been a team for her because I think that that would have been a very neat thing for her so other than that I don’t—a lot ofmy other friends especially Barb Vennema who was one of the main ones in starting the team, her—her mom was really supportive of us and she was at most of the meets and really encouraged us on, and like I said a lot ofmy friends were really supportive of it. LAURA: And you said that your mom wasn’t necessarily supportive or thought it was foolish. Can you describe kind of her thoughts on a girl and what her role should be? DEBRA: We should go to school and do the work that we need to do and come home and do the chores that she gave us to do. And I still had to all ofmy work at home after I got done with practice whether— and part of that was cleaning up the supper work or whatever even if I hadn’t eaten even if I had missed the meal. It was my job to do the dishes and clean up the supper table and that’s what I had to do no matter if I had just come from a meet and were later or whatever it was. I just had to get all ofmy work done and—and that’s how it was. I mean she just didn’t— she just thought it was all foolishness and couldn’t understand why anyone would want to run around a track. So, she—she did not grow up with the idea that girls should be involved in sports or any of that so she just couldn’t figure out why one of her daughters would want to be interested in that. LAURA: Did your older sisters play any sports? DEBRA: No. LAURA: So you were the first to be in a sport? DEBRA: Yes. I was rebellious. Page 8 �LAURA: Airight. And do you feel like your dad would have possibly gone to more if he wasn’t working at night? Or do you think that he kind of distanced himself as well thinking that it’s not necessary? DEBRA: No, I think he would have come because he always asked me about them and always had me run through—it was like running my race for the second time and telling him how we did and all ofthat. He made sure that he always asked me and I felt that he would have come if he would have been able to. My one sister did play the clarinet in the band and he always went to her concerts when he could, so I knew that he would have come if he would have been able to. LAURA: And what did your dad do for a job? DEBRA: He drove a truck. LAURA: So he was gone at night? DEBRA: Yes. He—he—actually he was gone a lot and so sometimes he would work until late in the evening—and then he would. . .he would get up, he’d have to sleep a few hours and then he got up and would have to be on the road again by midnight or a little bit before. So it was at that point, it was impossible for him to go to a meet. LAURA: And did your mom have a job? DEBRA: No, she was the housewife. LAURA: So do think that in any way that disappointed you or how did you just feel like this is what you wanted to do so you would do it or—were you wishing for more support from your family or how did you feel that that experience with your family not being 100% supportive, how do you feel like that affected you, if any? DEBRA: Well it didn’t change my mind I still wanted to be on the track team, to have a track team. So it didn’t change my mind at all. It would have made me feel probably better to know that there was more support and that they were behind me 100% in doing it but it didn’t change my mind I still wanted to do it. LAURA: And with your friends you mentioned one in particular, Barb, who was close with you and helped start the team with you. Do you feel like you guys had a special bond or you guys created a bigger and better friendship because of being involved in something like this? DEBRA: Yes and—and the fact that we were together every day in practice and running and had a common goal together especially those that were seniors and that were on the team. There were four of us that started it, Barb Vennema, Beth Cummings, and Pam Straight and each of us did a different event we didn’t even run the same events or anything. And—but yet there was always that common goal and we were always there to help each other and I think that that made our friendship stronger, and especially for Barb and I. We just, it was just one of the best experiences that we had that we could—and, and making a difference and starting something new and knowing that maybe the next year they would even do better the girls track team, than what we were—we were able to do. Page 9 �LAURA: With you four was it a coincidence that you did not run the same thing? DEBRA: I think... No. LAURA: Or based on different abifities it just kind of happened that you were not all milers DEBRA: Right I think it was our different abilities and also we started with guys and figuring out the events we were going to have, barb was the miler, and Beth ran shot put or did shot put and ran a couple of long distance events, Ann ran hurdles why we don’t know she just liked them, and I did middle distance the 880 and 440 which today is the 800 meter and 400 meter so it was just what we thought we were good at and what we like of course it helped that barbs boyfriend was a miler on the guys track team so she trained a lot with him so maybe that’s why she chose that one. LAURA: Did any of you hold any records in the races that you ran in the short time you were there? DEBRA: Well we all set records and they were all broken the next year but no for mine in the 880 I held the record for two years and I think that there was one other one but I’m not sure but I know that one but the goal was to have somebody break our record because in all actuality we were not very good and so the goal was to each year to improve and that is what happened. LAURA: And in forming this team and you necessarily did not have the support from the administration because they didn’t want to put the time and money into it how did you go about organizing the meets once you had a team established with different schools was that something that you were responsible for? DEBRA: No what happened is that when, I believe that when the administration the athletic director in particular saw that we were serious and that we were going to run with the guys team whether we had a girls team or not things started to take place I remember being called into his office and being told that because they saw that we were going to run with the guys that they had found somebody who would coach and actually it was going to be a team they did the girls swim team it was Linda and Roger Harriman.. . linda would be the head coach for the girls track team and roger would assist her and we thought it was funny because we knew that they were interested in it from the very beginning but the administration kept saying no we couldn’t have one so it was within a matter of a couple of weeks we had a coach we had new uniforms the schedule was set up busses were arranged and for the rest of the season it wasn’t like we had to set up the meets ourselves or anything Mr. Lovendowski had to go ahead and do that and we just always marveled that they were adamant that we weren’t going to have a team and then that was put together within a couple of weeks and I mean all of the things that needed to be done the meets he called other schools and got the meets because almost all of the other schools that the guys ran against had girl track teams so it was just the matter of us having another bus maybe to go to that meet there were a couple of meets that we went to that the guys didn’t go to that they set up separately so that we would feel enough events to if it was at all possible to qualify for states or conference but for the most part it was all done by Mr. Lovendowski once I think they saw the we were really serious and there were girls that were going to come out for the team. Page 10 �LAURA: So did you feel that he wasn’t against you personally he just didn’t want to put time and effort into something that wasn’t going to happen? DEBRA: Right I don’t think he was ever against us personally he just said it wasn’t it wouldn’t happen because of the timing the fmancial reasons and just the work that had to go into it Ijust don’t think he thought it was going to be worth it. LAURA: So you didn’t get uniforms until the track team was officially started correct? DEBRA: Correct. LAURA: So what did you wear before you had an official girl’s team? DEBRA: We wore some old basketball girls basketball teams uniforms which if anything about sports they are completely different from track uniforms so they were a little awkward but we were happy to have them we used them. LAURA: So you felt since other schools had already had a girls team there was no opposition from other schools and it was fairly easy to collaborate with them to get a team going and do you feel they were supportive of you guys getting a team as well? DEBRA: Yes some of the schools were really glad because they had girls teams and it made it a lot easier if they could run it in conjunction at the same day with the boys teams because they would run one race for the guys and then we would run a race as girls or whatever it was and then in the 2 mile and the mile they would run together and just have different timers but it worked out well and a lot of the schools were glad that we had started the team. LAURA: What were some of the schools that you ran against? DEBRA: Spring Lake, Muskegon, Mona shores, kellogsville, I can’t even think of all of them that we ran against. LAURA: Are they fairly the same conference that Fruitport is still currently in? DEBRA: Yes well a lot of it has changed since then because they have changed the boundaries and the rules and all of that but for the most part it would be the same o we ran against orchard view Fremont Fremont is where we held the conference was held that year at Fremont Reese puffer LAURA: And the other girls track teams did they have uniforms at first did you ever feel inadequate when you would go against established teams or were you just ready to run? DEBRA: I don’t know if the word inadequate would be the word we felt kind of a little bit awkward because they weren’t track teams but we were so excited to be running that we really didn’t care if we had to wear are own shirts t-shirts or whatever we would of done that but at least we looked like a team because we were all in a uniform even though they weren’t the correct ones. LAURA: In terms of running shoes what did you wear for shoes just regular tennis shoes? Page 11 �DEBRA: I did there were a couple of girls that we had that were sprinters that got a hold of some cleats but I ran with tennis shoes just regular tennis shoes because that’s all I had at the time a lot of us did we ran with tennis shoes but because we knew that our shoes weighed differently what we would do is run with weights at practice and then they felt lighter when we got to the meets. LAURA: And how did you figure that out was that something you guys came up with or did the guys help? DEBRA: The guys helped because they all had a lot of them had their track cleats and things and we knew that there were other shoes out there because we were interested in track so we learned things and read things and got information so we knew there were other things out there but a lot of us didn’t have extra money for that and of course the school didn’t provide for any of that either. LAURA: So when you started the team you had 4 girls and when you had an official girls team how many did you have? DEBRA: About 22. LAURA: And how long did that take you to get or did you find that it was hard to or were girls eager to join the track team? DEBRA: I think they were eager to join the track team there were a couple we would of liked to of had but their fathers said no that they couldn’t run track was not for girls so we had but for the most part we had ones that were really interested and really committed to it we got juniors and sophomores on the team so that we knew it would carry through to the next year we had a couple in fact our one sprinter actually qualified for conference and regional’s that year even and she was very good and the next year went on to win other things but we just went around asking as many as we could plus others had different commitments so the next year it was even bigger but that’s what we ended up with was 22 for the year. LAURA: Do you know approximately how many today run at Fruitport? DEBRA: No I don’t know for sure the team is a lot bigger they fill a couple 2 to 3 for each event and so the team is a lot bigger and has done a lot better in fact a couple of years after I was there they had quite a few that even qualified for conference and states and that so it’s grown over the years. LAURA: Did either one of your younger sisters run in the track team? DEBRA: No they didn’t my next younger sister probably would of but I don’t know that she really liked running she did powder puff football and that kind of thing and then my youngest sister had rheumatoid arthritis and was never able to run very well so she did not run on the track team either. LAURA: Is that something you would of liked for them to do or were you just happy to do it yourself? DEBRA: Well I was happy to do it myself but I would of liked to have see one of them do it I tried to encourage my sister penny to go out for the team but it just didn’t work out for her to do that. Page 12 �MOM: In our year on the track team was a harder year to the coach they had set up Linda Herrmann on our sports we had a sports banquet with the team and that night her daughter hit her head and had a brain aneurysm and she died so our last couple of regular meets plus the conference regional’s were with a different coach just one of the teachers he was math teacher Mr. Carison just stepped in and also one of the counselors Mr. Broderick stepped in to help the team going with us as a coach and that so it made the season a little bit more difficult and we were very determined after that because we wanted to not only do well for ourselves but to honor Linda and the effort that she had put out as our coach and losing her daughter and not being able to finish the season with us. LAURA: Was she ever the coach again? DEBRA: No her daughter’s death hit her pretty hard and so she didn’t come back as the swim coach or the track coach. LAURA: Do you know who then took over? DEBRA: Nope I don’t. LAURA: Do you feel like after you guys had your season that the rest of the school body and the administration were behind you and backed you? DEBRA: Yea I think that they did we got a lot of good comments from people staff members other students who think it was something that students saw that even though they were told no that things could still happen and I think that they were all very supportive and very glad that we did that and proud that there were some students that took action on their own we had a number of guys later that kept saying that there should be a plaque put up in the school for us because we went against the opposition and even though at the time we didn’t think it was any big deal but I guess other people thought it was and girls that ran afterwards were glad that we did that because even though the school would eventually I believe had a girls track team because that would have been what they did for sports I don’t know how many years it would of been before they would of done that. LAURA: So how do you think your impact on others was or what do you think your impact was in terms of those who ran track as well as those who did not do you feel like you guys had an impact on them? DEBRA: You mean on other students. LAURA: Yes. DEBRA: Yes I think we had an impact girls saw that they could have a sport even though if it wasn’t established at that time since then of course there is volleyball and all kinds of sports for girls and fruit port girls have done very well I think that it made a difference and kids believing that they could have a voice in the school even though they were told at first no and that if they showed detennination and stuck with something things could change. LAURA: Overall do you feel like you were satisfied with the outcome of what you four started? Page 13 �DEBRA: Yes overall we were glad the next year our records were broken and the next year more records were broken and as we could see that girls became more interested in track and ones that could excel at it because track is a team sport but also its an individual sport so girls that maybe weren’t really good in a gymnastic setting or even swim team were able to go out on the track and run around and they could do really well or they could high jump or even shot put or whatever it was it was a whole different kind of sport then gymnastics or swim team and so they could do something that maybe they could excel at. LAURA: So even though you were satisfied with the outcome what would you say were some of the greatest obstacles that you faced in developing the track team? DEBRA: Probably the greatest obstacle was just proving to those in leadership that we were going to stick with it and fmancially the opposition there being told that there was no money and we never were told where the money came from when they finally decided to let us have the team we all of a sudden the money was there so I think all along the money was there they just didn’t want to use it for that because they didn’t think that we were going to stick with it and so I think that was our greatest opposition was the administration it wasn’t the boys on the team it wasn’t the coaches themselves the guys coaches were great about it and so it wasn’t them I think it was the administration was our greatest opposition and using the funds for that. LAURA: In terms of the community or media did you get any media coverage or how do you feel the community felt what you guys were doing was right or wrong did you feel that you got support from them? DEBRA: I think for the most part we did get support from the community I know that there were a couple articles in the local newspaper in Fruitport and then also in the school newspaper of course you are going to have opposition from those who weren’t supportive of girls sports in the first place and like I said there were a couple girls their dads wouldn’t let them run and that kind of thing but overall the community support was good and I know that in the next years that followed there was a lot of support for the girls track team. LAURA: Did you feel like the team had a following if you went to different meets were people there to watch and support you? DEBRA: There were a few parents that did come regularly to the meets there were some of our friends who came and usually were there to support us but for the mostp it was if there were people at the meets they were there to watch the guys and even though they supported the girls we knew they weren’t there just to see us there were a couple on the guys team that were very good and they had a lot of fans you could say but I don’t think we really even thought about it or even cared who was there to watch us we were there to run and that’s what we wanted to do. LAURA: Were you involved in any other extracurricular at Fruitport or did track take up most of your time? Page 14 �DEBRA: I worked on the school newspaper and then also the yearbook although at that time the school newspaper was a class so I did that during the class time yearbook took up so time for me once I became involved in track that took up a lot ofmy time. LAURA: And in track or the other activities that you did, did you feel like that helped you as a person or in leadership roles do you think that did it take you out of your comfort zone or were you very comfortable in taking the role of a leader? DEBRA: Before that track team I didn’t know that I could lead I think it did take me out of my comfort zone for the most part I was pretty quiet in school until I had to go to the athletic director and talk to him about the track team and I remember that I somehow became the spokesman and when he needed something or wanted to talk to somebody I got called to his office about the team and how that happened I’m not even sure but I believe that the experience with the track team gave me a lot more confidence as an individual and helped me in going off to school and thinldng that I could take on things that I hadn’t taken on before and after school and working at a public school I was able to coach assistant coach for one year and coach the next year the girls track team which was a new venture for Comstock Park also at that time the girls track team was a new thing for them and that was pretty neat to get to see these girls trying to make the team work in their school to and working with them so I think the experience of starting a girls track team at Fruitport was life changing for me. LAURA: As the coach at Comstock Park did you share with them what you had done and did you feel they were more inspired by what you had done to inspire them? DEBRA: I think so I was able to talk with a lot of girls and say you got to keep trying you got to keep pushing and even though they were new and actually for being a new team they had quite a few girls that came out for the team and then of course talking to them because unless you have a vast amount of talent in the school the first year as a team in any sport will be a struggle and just fmding out where you fit in and different things like that so I think I was able to talk to the girls at Comstock Park because there team was new and encouraging them that it wasn’t always going to be like that they would have each year improve and more girls would be interested and more girls would come out and so then you can specialize in your events and you don’t have to run or fill in so that you have enough to fill the events and that’s what I think our first year at Fruitport because we didn’t have as many and we had to fill in and maybe we couldn’t focus on just one event like some of the schools that you run against girls would only run one event I remember I would have to run against girls in the 440 that were fresh coming out to run the 440 and I’d already run an 880 and so I never came out on my 440 fresh and not already used up a lot of energy for that so I had to and that makes a difference and that part I could encourage others and that say keep working at it and it will happen. LAURA: Are you glad that you were in the place you were at Fruitport to start the team or does a part of you wish that you could have specialized in an event.. .had it already been established? DEBRA: Sometimes I wish I would have been able to specialize, I would have liked to have seen what I could have done. But yet, as I said, the whole experience of starting a team, working administration, Page 15 �standing up for something I really thought should be was life changing and I wouldn’t have wanted to change that even if I could have focused on one event. LAURA: Although it was life changing for you did you think about the impact that it would have on future generations of girls pretty much forever? DEBRA: Not a whole lot. We knew that, the next year the girls were going to be able to have a team and it would be kind of neat to see. And it wasn’t until I was coaching and we went to a regional meet, where I saw girls from Fruitport running and it was kind of neat to see girls from Fruitport in Fruitport uniforms.. .by that time they had new uniforms.. .and just be able to see them run and win events and stuff and think “I was part of that, I had a part in letting them run.” LAURA: Do you think that they knew what you guys had done for them? Do you think that necessarily girls think about that? DEBRA: I think the couple years after we graduated I think they thought about it. But after that, no. Because the stories die down and they don’t know you as much. I think those that were freshmen when we were seniors in running, they still remembered it when they got to be seniors. But after that no. Even though there were, like I said, those guys kept saying that a plaque needed to be put up. LAURA: Is there? DEBRA: No. That was never done. LAURA: So there’s nothing a Fruitport High School to show that you guys started the team? DEBRA: No, just in the archives that will say when the team started and the records that go back. And I guess the athletic director will have the archives or the yearbooks are in the libraries. And that’s pretty all that, except for our memories. (laughs) LAURA: Do you have any advice that you would give to others that face adversity? DEBRA: I guess my advice would be, first determine is what you’re doing or what your faith, is it worth standing up for. And if you believe that it is worth standing up for that, and that it will make an impact later than, to stay with it. And eventually things will change. They may not always change to the way you want them to or exactly the way you pictured it. But things will change and to just stay with it. LAURA: What do you think the key factors were for you personally to keep with it? What drove you to stick with it and what determined you to start this team? DEBRA: Well I always liked running. I thought I was good at it. And I wanted to win a first place (laughs), I guess that motivated me a lot to want to do that. But also for the fact that I guess.. .because we wanted a team... guys had team, and why couldn’t girls have a track team in school. And just that they told us “No, we couldn’t have one”, and that we just wanted to show people that we could. And that kept us going and when the guys coach told us we could run with them and the fact that when we ran with guys they were very supportive of us and kept us along with that. Page 16 �LAURA: So do you think without the support of the guys it would have been a lot harder? DEBRA: Yes! Yes. Because there was...I mean just little things that they would tell us. How to keep hydrated. How to.. .you know something, if we had pains, how to stretch. How to do just things that they were always.. .that they got told by the coaches and had been working at it. They had already had a team for years. And just little things that they did. I’ll never forget.. .a funny thing. They told us to have orange slices but oranges go fast. And so one kid told us have a grapefruit. He always brought a grapefruit and that’s what we started doing (laughs). And grapefruits lasted through the whole track meet. LAURA: Do you think that the difference in the community and how close knit some people were, do you think that affected their support or did they just want to see you succeed regardless whether you were a close knit community? DEBRA: I think they just wanted us to succeed. I don’t think at that time we were really.. .1 don’t know if close knitted community Fruitport is.. .buy yet I think there would be support for the team. It was just the right time. LAURA: So after you graduated where did you.. .you coached at Comstock Park and where did you go after that? DEBRA: Well I went to school to Grand Rapids School of the Bible in New Zeek. And there I ran.. .which was interesting they had a cross country team for the guys but did not for the girls. And there was a couple of us that did run with the guys at a couple of the cross country meets. To me that was just a usual thing at the point. And we didn’t get a whole lot of support there but we still did it. One of the girls happened to be from the Ludington area Scotville, who came from the school with a tremendously big girls school track team. And she was this All-State champion. And her and I hooked up together and we ran cross country with the guys there and ran with the school of Bible Music. And it was after that the.. .1 was working at Comstock Park Public School. After that, got married and moved away. Continued to run for a number of years and finally let it go. But always been supportive of track teams. Had a daughter, have a daughter who ran track and was always real proud of that. Felt that in some ways it was just cool to watch my daughter get to run on a team and not have to question whether she would be able to or not, it’s an accepted thing now for girls. And that’s a cool thing to watch. LAURA: Do you think even if it wasn’t socially acceptable with your experience would you be supportive of your daughter even though your mom wasn’t fully supportive of you? DEBRA: I think so I... We all have our individual taste and even though it might be something that I might not be fully liking but that she would like it I think that I would be supportive for her. LAURA: Did your mom ever later have more support for you or after you started the team, did she show more support or was she still distant? DEBRA: I would say no she’s never been supportive of it. In fact I talked to her not too long ago about it. She just always brushes it off as, well she has other things to do. And she flatly told me that she didn’t think girls should have been involved in that. So that’s the way it stands and probably always will be. Page 17 �LAURA: Do you think with that experience that you were more supportive of your children or did you try to attend more activities they did? DEBRA: Yes, I never wanted one ofmy children to ever say that my parents never saw me do something. So I made the determination at that point that I would go to what my children were involved in and watch them, whether it was something I really liked or not. I don’t always understand some of the games but I was there to support them no matter what because I did not ever want them to look up in the stands and wonder what it would be like to have mom and dad there. I never wanted them to wonder that. I wanted them to know that I was supportive of them and I would be there for them. LAURA: So, although track was a big part of your life, you said that you think that it gave you the confidence to do things that helped you in other areas of like and if so, what? DEBRA: I think it did give me help in other areas of my life, it gave me confidence that I didn’t know that I had. Because I could stand up for what I believed in and for what I wanted. I could voice my opinion. And in what areas.. .1 just think an overall in life. I mean even just going to job interviews later on, and just meeting different people and talking to different people. It gave me the confidence to know that I was capable of doing things I hadn’t tried before. And it helped me want to try to do other things that I hadn’t before. LAURA: With your children did you ever share your story of starting the track team in hopes that they would have the confidence to stand up what they believed in? DEBRA: I did share it, I don’t know if they ever did something with it (laughs). But yeah I did share it in hoping that they would try something new, to go out there and maybe it’s not always easy, life isn’t always easy. And just to, to try it. Even though there is opposition sometimes that it’s not the norm thing. LAURA: Have you been back to Fruitport since you graduated? DEBRA: I have not. Oh, I take that back. I did come back to Fruitport, there was one meet that I did go to while I was still in the Grand Rapids area and after that I moved away. So I haven’t been back since then. But I did come back and try to keep track of it. Especially when my sister was in school, my sister Penny and my sister Jennifer, I tried to keep track of what was going on and how the track meet was or how the track team was doing. But to come back for a track team after that for a track meet, I haven’t. LAURA: Did you ever think that you would stay in Fruitport and coach the track team or wasn’t that some that you necessarily wanted to do? DEBRA: Never thought about it, never thought about coming back and coaching there or even.. .1 left shortly after I graduated from high school and really have not lived in the area since. So I really never thought about coming back. LAURA: Do you have any ties to the Fruitport area still? Page 18 �DEBRA: Yes I have my sister. In fact now that you.. .my sister’s youngest daughter is running track and did last year in middle school. And she has another year in middle school and hopefully she’ll stick with track and go on to run for the high school. That would be pretty neat to see? LAURA: Does she know that you started the track team? DEBRA: I told her! (laughs). I said “Kelsey”. I told her that little story and hopefully she’ll remember that. And I know that my sister Penny remembers it, she was the one who came and watched the few times when she could. Staying after school, she had to stay after school and come over to the track meet. So hopefully, Kelsey will continue to run and maybe I’ll get to see her run in a high school meet. LAURA: Did you feel that because of what you accomplished that people or your sister in particular looked up to you? DEBRA: Penny, to a certain extent, looked up to me and that always make you feel good when someone looks up to you. But I think that the one thing that made a difference for me in thinking about it, is because my sister who, next oldest to me Denise, was always very good at running and everything. And I remember her always saying, “I wish there would have been a team for me, I wish I could have done what you did.” And that was always kind of neat because a lot of times when you’re the younger, you don’t hear that for the older siblings very much. And it was neat to have Penny, one of the younger ones look up to me, but it was kind of neat to have an older sister say that. LAURA: Did you feel the impact of people being inspired by you or were you just happy with yourself and not really worried what others thought, positively or negatively? DEBRA: I don’t think I really thought about how other people were going to see it. I was just happy that I could run and participate in the meets. I really didn’t think about what other people were thinking about it. LAURA: And in terms of accomplishments did you receive any varsity letters or medals? DEBRA: I received a varsity letter and numerals also. Did not receive any medals. I never was able to place first in any of the events that I ran. I was close, I was only a tenth of a second against Muskegon. So even though that would have been nice, it was just the fact I was able to run and 4. come that close. So yeah got my varsity letter and numerals. And I hadn’t been able to do that in any other thing because I wasn’t involved in any other sport so it was kind of neat to be able to accomplish that. LAURA: And was there a specific leader or.. • was there one person that was the point person or the.. .kind of the head of the track team besides the coach or did the four starters kind of take the role? DEBRA: I think it was mostly Barb, Venimu, and I that were the leaders. Pam was kind of a quiet girl, so she didn’t really take that much. And Beth, she was kind of crazy (laughs) and she just wasn’t very organized or anything. So I think it was mostly Barb and myself that became the point people or the spokespeople when there was an issue or something that needed to be handled, the athletic director would ask for one of us. Or when Linda.. .the Haremans, when her daughter died. It was Mr. Carlson and Mr. Broderick who would ask us for information, or who was running what or whatever it was. So that Page 19 �we helped a lot of that. We even ran... one of the meets was on Senior Skip Day and we were told that the seniors didn’t have to show up. But every one of the seniors showed up to run. And that kind of cool because they didn’t have to, but they did anyway. LAURA: Did you receive any special recognition for being one of the two main leaders? DEBRA: Not really.. .1 got larger numerals (laughs) from the athletic director because he said we had helped out with the team so much. But other than that, no. Just at the sports banquet. It was mentioned it was the first year for the team for those who had started it. LAURA: And... DEBRA: I don’t think. LAURA: Are you still close or are you still friends with any of the girls that you first ran with on the track team? DEBRA: With Barb. Pam I haven’t seen since high school. Beth Cummings I saw at our 20th class reunion, she is now a doctor out east at one of the big hospital back there, so she doesn’t come back much. And the fact that I moved away and really have not lived around here since high school made a big factor, (inaudible). There are a couple, Sherry Lenard ran on the team and I still have contact with her. I think that’s about it. I’ve seen a couple of them, but not to have stayed real close in touch with any of them. LAURA: And do you feel that girls today are treated equally in terms of sports? DEBRA: No, I don’t think girls are treated equally. I think boys sports will always get, to a certain extent more recognition, more money, more support. Especially football and boys basketball. Even though girls a lot of times excel at that their sports, I don’t think it’s equal. And I don’t know why that is. But, in any school system that I’ve been involved with or that my kids have been in, I’ve never felt that girls sports are equal to the boys sports, in any way, financially or supportive by the parents or any of that. So I just think it, no I don’t think it’s equal. LAURA: And how many... do you have sons? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: How many? DEBRA: Two... and one daughter. LAURA: And when watching them did you, felt the same that girls’ sports didn’t get as much recognition as boys and as a parent, does that bother you? DEBRA: I don’t think girls’ sports get as much recognition, even if they win state championships in their division, in their sports. I don’t think their recognized as much as the guys are. I don’t think the attention is focused on girls’ sports. I don’t think that financially the money goes towards girls sports. One school we were in they setup a whole weight room and everything. They told us it was for the football team, even though it had been used for a lot of different sports. It was mainly put there for the boys’ football Page 20 �team. Which was a lot of money and yes, football team players could use it. But I thought it was very unequal to the girls because so much money is put in the boys’ sports and not into girls. I just wonder what it would be like if more money was put into girls sports. The coaches were scrutinized like they are for the boys, especially for football and basketball and that kind of thing. LAURA: So even though you have come so far. ..help Fruitport come far and girls sports as a whole, are you at all disappointed where girls sports are versus boys or do you feel that girls are in a better place than what they used to be? DEBRA: They’ve made a whole lot progress. They’re in a better place than they used to be. Could they be in a better place? Yeah, I think so. Fruitport has a fantastic girls’ volleyball team now. The girls track is better and bigger than it ever was. But I think it could do better, but it doesn’t have the financial backing that boys’ sports does. LAURA: And in closing and further advice or any comments you would like to share? DEBRA: I don’t think so. Just that be supportive of those sports, and if you see something that’s being unfairly done, speak up. Let’s see ifwe can make them equal. LAURA: Airight, thank you. And that concludes our oral history with Debra Bussing Sawinski on November 28th, 2011. END OF INTERVIEW Page 21 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e21dfc76d2c673cc683308457c6476cd.mp3 ce760d719b0e6dd83eb853d19bd1b14d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Sawinski_Debra Title A name given to the resource Debra Sawinski audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sawinski, Debra Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schreur, Brian Sawinski, Laura Bell, Marcus Moeing, Robin Description An account of the resource Debra Sawinski discusses how she started the first all girls track team at her high school and the struggles that came along with in. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Sex discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8bcddbc48ba0b9a88ed0ab81905850ca.pdf eb09fe4d2359e5506753cc80f15264d3 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Donald Cullen Interviewers: Ian Baert and Heather Taylor Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/26/2012 Biography and Description Donald Cullen grew up near Royal Oak, Michigan. After being in the 4th Marine division on Iwo Jima, he was stationed in Hawaii before returning to Michigan. Donald now lives in Whitehall, Michigan, near his daughters. His love for the game of golf is as great now as it was back in high school. He discusses war. Transcript CULLEN: Well compared to the, the P-8 that’s a big ship you know. BAERT: Um hm CULLEN: It’ll hold a couple thousand men. Well, you know you’re bobbin up and down like this, you know that it’s stationary, and (pauses) a guy gets crushed in there. BAERT: Oh Really BENEDICT: (Interrupts) after he comes… CULLEN: Next that sticks in my mind more than anything… (Daughter Interrupts again) BENEDICT: After he comes, after he comes home BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: Uh, makes it through everything over there, and then that’s what happened to him CULLEN: And then when we get aboard the P-8, and the guy says, “What do you, (stutters), what do you want to eat? Swiss steak or something else you know? (Daughter and narrator laugh). After eatin’ rations for a month (everyone laughs more), you know? He says, “I don’t care.” They even had ice cream with that meal, uh so, it was uh… (Interrupted) BENEDICT: Didn’t you want spam Dad? (Everyone laughs) CULLEN: You know I’ll tell you one thing, I never, (stutters), I never minded spam. BENEDICT: Uh hm CULLEN: I didn’t always, (stutter), I mean compare to some of the other things we had I think. But it was, I was in an outfit that has a lot of guys from Detroit. That’s where I was from, Detroit, and it was, I don’t Page 1 �know, about 50% guys from right, (stutters), right around the Detroit area. I went to one, (paused) reunion they had, like you know just the guys in our outfit that was from around Detroit there. BAERT: Um hm CULLEN: And I never went to anymore that was it. (Chuckles) BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Tell Ian when you went down to sign up dad. This is a good story. When you went down to sign up. CULLEN: I (stutters) I don’t know what you’re talking about. BENEDICT: Well, well… CULLEN: I know when I went down there BENEDICT: Yea, and you told me that you were gonna sign up for the army CULLEN: Oh, oh yea I wanted to go in the airborne, hmm, cause I had a, my brother was in the airborne, And, the guy says, “No.” he says, “We got our quota, we take the first 500 men.” that day for the army, and so he says, “We got Navy, Coast Guard, or Marine Core.” And I said, “Oh, I’ll take the Marine Core.” (Chuckles) And that was uh, (paused), the guys never thought nothing of it, it was, but uh I didn’t want that Navy, they was, (daughter chuckling in the background), I was reading about it in the paper all the time. Those ships were getting sunk right out of New York Harbor. I says, “I want, I want dry land.” (Everyone laughs). BENEDICT: And Charley. Bill’s dad, he went down and he wanted to be in the Navy, cause he loved that water. Oh no, no, he couldn’t, they put him in the infancy 2:35 – 2:40 BAERT: Oh, I never knew… (Interrupted) CULLEN: (interrupts) Well uh…… BENEDICT: They do? BAERT: So you grew up around Detroit CULLEN: Yep I was uh, in uh, I was uh drafted. BAERT: Uh hm CULLEN: and uh, I was a draft warden for 62 out of Plymouth, MI. That was just, not too far from here. (Waiter comes takes drink orders, etc.) BAERT: That’s where all of my roommates are at, right around from Detroit, like uh. CULLEN: You, (stutters), you are? BAERT: My roommates are right around from Detroit. Livonia… Page 2 �CULLEN: Yep, that’s where I was BAERT: Yep, and… CULLEN: Livonia BAERT: uh Royal Oak, they have that big theater there. CULLEN: That’s where I was born, Royal Oak BAERT: Oh really? Yep, that’s where one of my roommates is from and he lives two blocks from the theater down there, so its uh, that’s why I was just curious though. CULLEN: Royal Oak Township. BAERT: Yep, it’s uh, it’s a nice area. CULLEN: I, I don’t even know what it’s like. BAERT: Oh Really? CULLEN: I was move away from there when I was just a little 3:36 – 3:42???? BAERT: Um, so you were, so you were drafted, uh we were talking about um, your childhood, um like, did you have any, like dreams jobs when you were younger? CULLEN: No BAERT: No CULLEN: Uh I, I think uh why I went in uh engineer outfit is uh I’d worked as a carpenter’s helper, you know, roofing houses, and I think that’s why they, why I went in a engineers. BAERT: Uh hm But I never had no, I wasn’t a carpenter I was just a, haul the lumber and nail em’. BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Well wouldn’t you say caddying was a dream job for yea? CULLEN: (laughing) Oh, I, I caddied for a long time. BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: (laughing) Oh Yea BAERT: I was going to do that for a ser too. I (stuttered) looked into that, that would have been a fun job. I love golf so, that would have been nice, but… CULLEN: Wouldn’t it? I think uh, well the, the guys around, I ….4:38 – 4:40 With a fella, well we was in school all the time, and uh, boy we played every golf course around this time of the year. You know, when they was closed up, and we knew they would be open (laughing) BAERT: Yea (laughing) Page 3 �CULLEN: We’d go out to Birmingham, or Oakland Hills, (laughing) drive right up the club, There was no other cars around BENEDICT: Just like they were members (laughing) CULLEN: Yea with an old 36’ Ford (laughing) BAERT: Yea (laughing) CULLEN: Henry, this guy that hung around us all the time. He had uh, he worked at Cadillac’s BAERT: Yea? CULLEN: And he drove the cars off the assembly line out into the parking lot there, you know, wherever they need them. (Laughing) And there he had to get into that old 36’ Ford, he had to drive it (5:17 - 5:23) and they don’t have no brakes you know them old 36’ Fords, mechanical brakes, and they never worked (everyone laughs). It was (paused) Henry he went into uh, he went into the Army after the war, and maybe he was little younger than me, I don’t know, and he went over in Korea. He was playing polo all the time, riding horses. I guess he had a good time doing that (laughing). BAERT: Yea definitely CULLEN: He was uh, we caddied together and played golf together all the time. He was a nice buddy. I watched hockey, not watched it, I mean I listened to it. We’d play table tennis, you know, in a garage with a (laughing) a little (6:26-6:30) we was always bumping our head on that thing. Anyway, that’s when Detroit won the first 3 games against Toronto. What was it 1942? (Laughing) Well I thought maybe you knew the hockey… BENEDICT: Dad, I was still a star in heaven (laughing) CULLEN: Detroit wins the first 3 games just blowing Toronto out. They lose the next four. BAERT: Oh, wow CULLEN: I think 1942 BENEDICT: So we come to be Red Wing’s Fans from way back. BAERT: Do you have any Siblings? Did you have any brothers or sisters? CULLEN: Yea there was five of us, and my oldest sister, she’s gone, and so is my older brother. And my younger sister, she uh not doing good, her minds going, like mine is too. Donna told me to, 7:27 – 7:35 I, I drive over here I thought she told me to meet her over here. BENEDICT: I said, I see him at the casway and I said to Bill, well there goes dad, (laughter). Good thing it’s a small town. We can track him down (laughs). CULLEN: I pulled in over here this morning I thought it was at 9:00. Page 4 �BAERT: Ah CULLEN: The cop was across the street waiting, boy I had to be careful I didn’t do anything wrong. He was just waiting for someone to pull a boner, and he was going to nail them. I don’t mind the police being on alert like that cause I, I usually drive I think slow enough. I don’t, I don’t speed too much. But uh, you know most the time when I’m driving, every once in a while I’ll look and if I see a speed limit sign, I’ll look at the speedometer, you know the speedometer, I’m going exactly what that reads up there. Now is that just, I don’t BENEDICT: That’s talent, that’s skill (laughter) CULLEN: But honestly I’ll, if it says 25 I’ll be maybe doing 26 or 27, but right in there BAERT: Yea, that’s what I usually do too, so. BENEDICT: Dad has also a younger brother. BAERT: Oh ok CULLEN: Yep, Jack he’s a. Does he? Jack was a brickplayer. That longed for me to… BENEDICT: (interrupts) 8:59 CULLEN: He uh, we worked together for a while trimming trees for the city of Detroit, well that was, we enjoyed that I think both of us. We had nice foreman. I think having a good ser means a lot to a job. It makes the day go by so much faster. I gotta tell you this story with this foreman we had. He’s great big guy. Big teeth, just a big smile on his face all of the time. We’re trimming on this street you know, I knock down a branch or maybe about this big, and (estimates size) just about covered all the way across the road. And there’s, oh about this much snow I’d say (estimates again), fresh snow. This UPS guy he’s coming along, and he’s got a delivery, he’s pushing this branch along. This big ol’ foreman we got he said, “Can’t you read that sign, it says do not enter.” “Road closed.” And he’s getting pushed backwards and he’s got feet about like that (laughs). He’s a great big guy. He loses his temper, the first time I ever seen him lose his temper. He says. “Goddamn you!” He says, “Stop it!” (Laughs)I never seen Harvey, Harvey Brinks was a 10:27, never seen him get like that, but there he, he got pushed off edge by 15, 20 feet backwards. The guy couldn’t get across that, Harvey’s feet was there. He couldn’t get away. It ticked me, you know, I was, having a bird’s eye view I was up the tree watching it. Oh, that Harvey was a… Then we, we went over on another Street, Boston Blvd, maybe you know that. Well, that was the wealthiest street in Detroit, you know way back. Henry Ford lived there, and the whole haul of General Motor people. Everybody that had money lived on Boston Street. The trees hadn’t been trimmed in about 20 years, since the WPA had been there. They were way up there; they had trees up there about 80 feet somewhere, Elm trees, big ones. We’d be up there climbing around. Harvey was up and say, “Coffee!” (Laugh) He’d just like to see us come sailing down out of some trees. It was his way of having a good day. He was uh, really uh, good foreman. I liked him a lot. He had a, had a brother that was into racing. (Stammers a little) Page 5 �His brother in law bought this Lincoln, or (paused), I think it was Lincoln. And that was the fastest thing, you know for the track, riding on the track PAULINE: Oh ok CULLEN: Like what they’re doing today. I, I see that on television every once in a while. They had a big crack up yesterday. Did you happen to see that or anything? BAERT: I saw it on ESPN, yea CULLEN: I was watching that… BENEDICT: Oh is that a NASCAR or? CULLEN: Yea about 3 or 4 of them right together coming into, they only had about a half a, not even half a lap to go. BAERT: Yea the quarter turn, cause uh, the 11th place guy at, right before the crash ended up winning the race. CULLEN: (laughing) Yep! BAERT: Which is weird so (laughing) CULLEN: you know there was a car there I was watching, he was, I think he had the most speed. But boy they kept him pinned in back there. BENEDICT: Well I think they use that as a strategy don’t they? To kind of widdle people out. BAERT: What did your parents do? CULLEN: What? BAERT: What did you parents do for work? CULLEN: Oh I don’t know (laughter). My mother she was a worker, my dad was an outman. Then he had a pool hall over in Highland Park. I, I never, I think I, I didn’t spend I don’t think 3 hours in that pool hall. I, I never, I rather play table tennis more than pool. BAERT: Yea CULLEN: Look it there’s the dog tag I got. BENEDICT: Yea this is um, Dad’s dog tag. BAERT: Oh this is awesome! BENEDICT: Yep, isn’t that great that we found, we were, um looking for, uh the toy box um grandma, she had a toy box for all of us grandchildren you know, and um Jenna now that she has a child. She said, “Oh can you find grandma’s toy box?” So dad and I were down in the basement looking around. We found his (sea bag 14:02 – 14:05). BAERT: Oh Really? Wow. Page 6 �BENEDICT: And I said, “Look it dad.” And it was his I.D. and, um his dog tag was in it, and we had cleaned out a couple other boxes and I said, “And what’s this?” and I pulled this great big piece of metal out of his (sea bag) about this long (gestures), all the cleaning and looking was over when I found that, that uh gun barrel. (Laughing) CULLEN: Oh (laughing). My brother Jack had sent into the army, and he got an old rifle and uh then he bought an extra gun barrel, because they didn’t recommend that gun barrel that was on there. That it may not be useful, so then Jack bought an extra barrel, and he gave it to me. Well, it’s a, I don’t know if you know rifles or not, but there are some that have 3 grooves and some of them got 4. Well the 4 groove it shoots a little straighter, it puts a little more spin on it. BENEDICT: So he has me looking, and I’m not (stutters), I don’t know what I’m looking for. He says, “Hold it up to the light hunny. I can’t see it real good. Is that a 3 groove or a 4 groove?” Well what on Earth am I looking for? (Daughter laughs) So I have this barrel… (Interrupted) CULLEN: Riflemen’s the only ones that have any, uh knowledge of that. You know most people pick up a rifle and they don’t know… (Background noise, multiple people talking) BENEDICT: Dad knew he had it but didn’t know where it was, well they it laid at the bottom of the, of a (sea bag). CULLEN: Did you look at that close Donna? BENEDICT: Yea I looked at it close. CULLEN: No but there’s something on there I bet you didn’t notice. See that little “C” over there? BENEDICT: Uh hm CULLEN: That’s what denomination we are. See I was baptized Catholic BENEDICT: Oh, ok MR BENEDICT: Show Ian CULLEN: And type “O” blood. That’s when I went in 1943. PAULINE: That’s pretty nice. BENEDICT: Isn’t that something to put that on there? BAERT: It is. BENEDICT: Yea DAVE: See that was, when I went in, in the 80’s that was uh, you’re religion was a big (16:02 – 16:06 BENEDICT: Oh yes GUY 1: I bet you it isn’t anymore. PAULINE: It might be. Page 7 �BENEDICT: But you, but you look at, um the cemetery, um you know Arlington National they all have record if you are Christian, or whether you are Jewish or… CULLEN: What other questions you got? BAERT: Well I was just looking at, uh like, well we already talked about like, if you had any like, where you saw yourself in 10 years and stuff like that. Did you play any sports when you were younger, when you were a kid? You remember playing sports with your friends or anything like that? CULLEN: Well we played sports, uh all, like um when I got out of the service we went my brother; my brother took over my grandmother’s house right down pretty close to the ball park. BAERT: Oh ok CULLEN: On Balt and Temple. It was right on ….street 17:11. There was my older brother Gordon, and Jack and I and then there was Cullen family across the road (laughing). BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: No relation CULLEN: (Laughing) Yea no relation, two boys, and then Henry and Mrs. Lawrence would come over. That’s it. But uh I always ched around with Henry. He had blond hair and his brother had black hair, Chet. Anyways, we had almost a softball team right there, the three of us with two across the road, and Henry and Lawrence, they’d come. We’d play softball almost every night. BAERT: Oh right? CULLEN: At Naple Field, and we had a short right field fence and, well the street run there, the way the ball diamond was outlaid. I played short right field there. We was playing black guys. You know they, they loved to play ball. Anyways, there was one hit out there to me and I caught it, and I threw it into, Lawrence was catching. He tagged a guy out. The guy couldn’t make it from third base (laughter). Well it was a short right field wall and all; you know it never went out very far. You only got a single if you hit it over the fence; you know at a certain so many posts down. Then it was a double and then there was an entrance way down there and I think if you had it past that it was a homer. BAERT: Oh yea? (Laughs) CULLEN: Isn’t that something? BAERT: Yea CULLEN: The way we had it figured single, double, and then a homer (laughs). But uh, it was the bat boy for the tigers, well Lawrence our catcher he uh went with his sister who was Lawrence’s girlfriend, isn’t that something? (Laughs) BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Did it get you into the games? Page 8 �CULLEN: uh they never got me into the games. Lawrence’s did, but I mean they called him Tarzan, all the girls were on there, cause he had long black hair. The only one, you know, that had long hair. I don’t think I’ve ever had long hair in my lifetime except when I was a real little guy BENEDICT: How’d you like Stevie’s hair yesterday? Did that remind you of Christopher or what? (Laughs) CULLEN: I use to cut the boys hair but, then they got so big and they wanted long hair, so I hung up the clippers. BENEDICT: And my mom, Christopher had beautiful curly hair and he didn’t want to have his hair cut you know, and mom didn’t want him to get his hair cut. Here’s dad clipping the other boy’s hair and poor Christopher, you know he would run and hide (laughs). Well now he has a son and Stevie showed up, and it was the spitting image. I couldn’t believe it, it was my baby brother right there his child with long hair, and he’s a hockey player. I said… (Waitress comes and clears table) I said I didn’t know if I should call him Justin Bieber or not. He had the bangs all over. (laughs) but tell, yea, tell him, I want you to tell Ian the story about, um when you guys were cadian and the cadies could play on Mondays. CULLEN: Monday mornings. Henry 20:46 and I, we’d be the first ones out there. We’d play 18 holes before there’d be, uh footprints of anybody else on the course. BAERT: Wow CULLEN: We’d play 18 holes and there wouldn’t be no other caddies out there yet. Now, that’s going around a pretty good time. BENEDICT: What was the name of the course, um Forest… CULLEN: Forest Lake BENEDICT: Forest Lake, and um a friend of mine, son, was getting married and they would come down there. And so they were going to hold the reception at Forest Lake Country Club. So I said to dad, “Do you know where Forest Lake Country Club is?” I got to tell you a story about Forest Lake, but anyhow. Really, it’s very ritzy place now, but what did you say that the course was um private then went public? CULLEN: Yep, during the wartime cause people didn’t have gas to travel very far. Everybody had a ticket right on your windshield. You know, when you went into the gas station. You had service men in there, they’d come out. Well you had to show your card, and then they’d punch it too so you couldn’t get more gas then what you were allowed. You were only allowed so much gas a week. I don’t think this country really realized how much the United States dedicated to that war. I mean everybody it wasn’t just… BAERT: That’s what we were talking about the difference between, um like, a limited war and like a full war went. That entire economy, everything was dedicated to the war effort compared to like now where it’s hardly ever, hardly at all. Was there anything else besides gasoline that everyone struggled at, that was rationalized? 22:47-22:49 CULLEN: Oh I, I think, uh meat too, I think you had to have, uh food stamps. It was I think everything, but everybody was into it. I mean I don’t care, the whole family everybody would do certain things. Page 9 �BENEDICT: Uh hm, or gave up certain things, yep. CULLEN: My sister Joel, that’s, uh older then I am, she was, she worked in the factory. She worked on the B29’s and I didn’t even know they were making the B29’s. Isn’t that something? Marge she worked in the factory too. That was my oldest sister. She was 9 years older than I was. MR. BENEDICT: So did you get drafted Don? CULLEN: Yes MR. BENEDICT: where’d you go to base? CULLEN: San Diego MR. BENEDICT: Oh yea, Camp Pendleton? CULLEN: What? MR. BENEDICT: Camp Pendleton? CULLEN: No San Diego Base. MR. BENEDICT: Oh really? CULLEN: And then you, up north a ways was Camp Pendleton. I was at the rifle range, uh I think I was there for a week, or two week, I forget now. But uh, you had to go through the rifle range and that was, you know, when you were in boot camp. But that San Diego boot camp, that (24:19 – 24:22) I bet you is a mile. I never seen such a thing and the navy was down at the end of it. The Navy uh, I think they had a boot camp down there at the end of that; but sometimes well I don’t know how many platoons they had but… (Waitress comes to table gain bringing something) I don’t know how many platoons they had… MR. BENEDICT: You want to eat yet? CULLEN: What? MR. BENEDICT: Are you ready to eat? CULLEN: Well uh I was going to eat with Sherrill afterwards, but I don’t, I don’t turn away food very well. (Laughter) I don’t, I don’t eat a lot but whatever I take and put on my plate I eat. BENEDICT: Now how much did you weight when you entered the core? CULLEN: you’re asking questions I don’t know. BENEDICT: How much do you weigh now? CULLEN: well I’m losing weight now, but I was 157 pound for 30, 40 years. I didn’t have to get on the scale to know how much I weighed, I weighed the same. (Background noise, joking around, and laughter) Page 10 �[After returning from the buffet area] CULLEN: Are you familiar with Muskegon? PAULINE: A little, I have been here years ago. I haven’t been around here in a long time CULLEN: What do they call it? The steak and agger. PAULINE: Oh? CULLEN: We went there at 9 o’clock in the morning and honestly it’s all, I don’t know how much bigger it is than this here place, maybe two or three times bigger. Almost all the seats were taken. BAERT: Oh really? Wow. CULLEN: At 9 o’clock in the morning. For breakfast. PAULINE: It must be a good place then. CULLEN: Oh, you know what? I said Bill, I think, I said, in fact I must be a big man, big eater because everybody, everybody, honestly the biggest servings you have ever seen. Really I have never seen anything like that! [Chuckles from group in the background] CULLEN: but uh, I talked with a fella that he wants to know about when I caddied. He is with Michigan, what is it? I don’t know what Bobby is with. What is the topper? What does he have to do with? The Michigan golf association or something? BENEDICT: GAM? Golf? Yeah the golf association of Michigan CULLEN: He was down there at the steak and agger. BENEDICT: When? CULLEN: Yesterday Morning. But he left at 9 o’clock. We just missed him. BENEDICT: And he’s been um he’s been battling severe cancer. He has been at the U of M. CULLEN: he is getting where he can drive a car. But he called me up every once in a while [in laughter]. One time I told him lets go over and play Lincoln fields. He says where’s that Don? I say it’s like in golf cars. He said it reminds me of the fields around our house growing up as a young kid. I says it got the nickname Lincoln fields. Oh he laughed! He has never got over that. BENEDICT: And his other friend didn’t particularly care for that. CULLEN: oh no. the guy we played golf with all the time Ken, he didn’t think that was funny at all. [Laughter from others]. Bill: One time I asked him how his golf game was, and he said a lot better than his dad’s game was! Page 11 �BAERT: you said you used to play softball with African-Americans in the area? And stuff like that? Were they treated [cut off] CULLEN: we didn’t have any uniforms, we just played every night. In the ser time. Not on the weekends. And it was um, I think I enjoyed playing that softball more than any sport. I think I liked it more than golf. PAULINE: we played it all the time all day long when I was a kid. CULLEN: Softball? Oh it gets into you doesn’t it? PAULINE: I didn’t really have a mitt for the longest time, I finally asked for a mitt for my birthday. I had one with no pocket in it, the pocket was coming off, and it was the only thing I had to keep my hand protected. CULLEN: I had an old black mitt, and you know, I punched holes in it and sowed it and put a string, a shoe lace across there, to hold my fingers together. I think afterward I see others they put leather on and around that up there at the top you know? And sowed their fingers together. But I did before they did I think. But that old glove... we used to play the ford republic. Have you heard of the ford republic? BAERT: I think I have heard of it. CULLEN: well Henry Ford had a place for wayward kids and uh, they had a big, what is it, a big farm. They had all kinds of things there. We used to play them. We used to go and play the Ford republic there and in softball, or baseball. I was pitching one time, I threw, I was the pitcher, I threw nine curve balls and struck out three guys. In nine pitches, they never touched the ball. Against the ford republic. But somebody stole my glove down there. Yeah that black one I had the black lace around it. So I went down there the next day and told em, I told the coach I said somebody stole my glove yesterday. He said he thinks he knew who just gone done it. And he went and looked in these guys locker and it wasn’t there, went in the next one and there it was. He knew the guys that were stealers. [Laughter in the background] CULLEN: and the coach he, I said someone stole my glove and he said, I think I can find it. And I couldn’t believe it. BAERT: do you remember, like how, when you were a kid, how civil rights were coming up? Or not really? CULLEN: nope, there were no, blacks, it was something to see a black person. You just didn’t see em around our house. BAERT: that was just one thing that we talked about. Um did you notice how society was starting to change more technological more uh emphasis on education at all? Did you ever notice that when you were a kid? How things were changing? CULLEN: no, not too much. I was... I would play hard and go right home to bed. Page 12 �BAERT: yeah this ser I worked in a factory, that’s exactly what I did too. I would work a twelve hour shift, id workout then I was... CULLEN: you would wanna go to bed! BAERT: haha exactly! PAULINE: He may have seen a difference in vehicles over the years being from Detroit. BAERT: before the war, did you have any presumptions or did you have any feelings about the war before3 you entered? CULLEN: oh I don’t think so. BAERT: you don’t think so? Was it, well it was all around you, but was it, was your family really focused on it at all with stamps or anything like that? CULLEN: I remember hearing President Roosevelt when he declared war on Japan. BENEDICT: but your brother was already in the service before wasn’t he? CULLEN: no. BENEDICT: oh he wasn’t? CULLEN: oh, he went in before I did but not very long before I did. BENEDICT: oh ok. CULLEN: I think I got discharged before he did. Couple, maybe two or three weeks but our division was the first one to break up too when the war ended; of the Marine divisions. BAERT: um, how were you treated when you came back? CULLEN: um pretty good, pretty good id say. BAERT: Pretty good? That was the one difference between each war when people came back, and how they were treated. CULLEN: I think everyone was treated the same, I think you got three hundred dollars. BAERT: oh really? CULLEN: Must turn out payment. Uh, I don’t think people got any more or any less, it was three hundred dollars and everyone got the same. BENEDICT: yeah, but think how the Vietnam vets were treated dad. Think about the Vietnam vets were treated when they came back. BAERT: yeah they were harassed and different things like that for a long time. Page 13 �CULLEN: oh... I don’t think we had any of that. BAERT: Oh, did you earn any service medals or any ribbons or anything like that? CULLEN: no. BAERT: No? CULLEN: oh, I got some citation for the unit citation; you know the citation everyone in our outfit got one. BAERT: oh ok. Um well after the war what kinda like jobs did you have, and uh like where you decided to settle down? CULLEN: it was pretty hard for me, I’d take, one year I think I had 6 or 7 jobs. BAERT: On the west side of the state? Over here? CULLEN: around Michigan, around Detroit. [Chuckles] I think I worked for the city the longest; I worked there a couple years. About 3 years. BENEDICT: and then how did you come up here dad? CULLEN: How’d I come up here? Well my mother had, lived just out here, on silver crick road. And uh, I used to come up here. I seen and ended up playing golf at white lake, I used to play at white lake. MR. BENEDICT: That’s where he met his wife BAERT: oh ok CULLEN: I got to meet her, and next thing we got married. It was uh Nina was now Max peach, this is a story from Max peach she is an old timer out there. But Nina beat all the men down there one Sunday morning; her golf score was lower than any of the men [chuckles]. And Max, he never forgets a thing. He knows just how far he hit the ball on number 8! At white lake. [Laughter in the background] CULLEN: I even forgot that. BENEDICT: it was amazing that we are living out there and being out there. Having that be our golf course and that’s where they met. PAULINE: that’s pretty neat. BENEDICT: then Jenna, our daughter, met her husband there; he was the assistant pro at the golf course and met Eric at White lake. PAULINE: so how did the men take getting beat by a woman, did they handle it very well? [Laughter breaks out] Page 14 �CULLEN: Ma that tickled max peach more than anybody. BAERT: when you were raising your kids, you rose them on the west side right? CULLEN: they all went to Montigue. BAERT: how do you think that was different for them from you, growing up in Detroit? CULLEN: ohh I think they have way more to offer the kids this day, but uh I think like the, I told Donna the other day I took two hours of typing in ah, I never monkied with a type writer sense, and the key board, I still remembered it. BENEDICT: I showed him my cell phone, the texting, and he knows that they were the same way the type writer was? And I said yeah. And he rattled off the order of the keys. BAERT: oh yeah? CULLEN: and I haven’t picked up a type writer in… I have not been around one sense I was in school, in 9th grade. END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b3b4bd04e3de773a30524bc505bd2c3f.mp3 30d68b880445b5734a29f13467703995 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Cullen_Donald Title A name given to the resource Donald Cullen audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cullen, Donald Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Baert, Ian Taylor, Heather Description An account of the resource Donald Cullen grew up near Royal Oak, Michigan. After being in the 4th Marine division on Iwo Jima, he was stationed in Hawaii before returning to Michigan. Donald now lives in Whitehall, Michigan, near his daughters. His love for the game of golf is as great now as it was back in high school. He discusses war. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Veterans--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/219f62b64221bf0a5602606da6931317.pdf 698cdcb55628d91b7d24721eb0dd4f6f PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Doug van Doren Interviewers: Shae Johnson, Daniel Gotshall, Derek Wolff Supervising Faculty: Joel Wendland Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/13/2011 Runtime: 00:58:09 Biography and Description Doug van Doren is a pastor of Plymout United Church of Chrrist and he is involved with the community in a number of areas. In this interview he describes experiences of discretionary practices and prejudice toward people of color in the West Michigan area. Transcript Derek Wolff: My name is Derek Wolff. I’m here with Dan Gotshall. Today is December 13, 2011. We are here with the Reverand Doug Van Doren. (To Doug) We are here today to talk about your experiences within the Civil Rights Movement in West Michigan. DW: Before we can do that, we have to get to your basic information. For the record, could you please spell out your full name? Doug Van Doren: Douglas, D o u g l a s Van V a n Doren capital D o r e n. DW: Thank you. Could you give me the date of birth and the place that you were born in? DVD: I was born in Adrian, Michigan, July 13, 1952. DW: Thank you. Could you just tell me briefly about your parents and any sibling that you might have? DVD: Parents are deceased. I have two older brothers and an older sister and a younger sister, so there are five of us all together. DW: What are their names? DVD: Chuck, Carol, Steve and Pat. DW: Ok, thank you. Are you married? DVD: I am married to Colleen Mahone Van Doren, and we have a fourteen year old son, Aiden. DW: Ok, thank you. Your education, going back to high school and did you attend college at all? Page 1 �DVD: Graduated from high school in 1970, attended Eastern Michigan University, graduated with actually a bachelor’s of social work from there in 1975 and then went to grad school at the University of Chicago at the Chicago Theological Seminary. Graduated with a Master’s in Divinity from there in 1978. DW: Ok, your community involvement, professions and any political affiliation or preferred political party. I’d imagine, and I’m sorry to cut you off here, your community involvement and profession that a lot of that is going to revolve around the Plymouth United Church of Christ. DVD: Right, I’ve been a pastor of Plymouth United Church of Christ since 1978 and I’ve been involved with the community in a number of areas. I’ve been a board member and am currently still a board member of the Grand Rapids Urban League. I’ve been involved with the board of and chaired Planned Parenthood of West Michigan. I’ve was involved with Concerned Clergy here in West Michigan and over the years a number of other local organizations and issues. DW: Ok, thank you. I guess, when did you first come to the West Michigan area. I came in 1978. DVD: I was born on the south-east side of the state, came here in the fall of 1978. DW: Ok, and you’ve basically been around the area with regards to, well essentially all of your life except for time spent away at school, correct? DVD: I’ve been in Michigan for that time. The first part, until seminary, was south-east Michigan. DW: All right, thank you. That clears that stage of this process. I guess what I’d like to talk to you first about is just your personal history within the civil rights movement as well, so can you just go back to a time; do you remember the first instance or involvement that you had within a civil rights movement? DVD: First direct involvement, I was after the big civil rights movement in terms of racial justice. I was a child, or at least Junior High, when King was active, so probably my first organized involvements were in seminary working with a number of African-American students just dealing with what appeared to be discretionary practices and prejudice in relations to how people of color were treated in UFC and parts of the seminary community. DW: Ok, I guess, how have you relayed some of those experiences to discrimination of sorts within the Grand Rapids community? DVD: Well, the more you see, the more you learn. And so, having direct involvement with people of color and their perspective began to shape my understanding; as a dominant class person you can’t experience or know those things directly, but if you listen carefully and if you’re trusted by minority folks in these situations then you can get a glimpse of what it’s like, how they see the world and stuff that we dominant culture people miss. So, I think that was probably, that learning process that is still going on of course, at that point. That also branched out into, we were working very hard with divesture issues in South Africa and I was working with that in seminary, which has a lot of links to local discrimination, to discrimination of African Americans here (U.S.). So when I came here I also continued the work, trying to get corporations and so forth to divest from South Africa, which we were successful with the city with some of its funds. Page 2 �DW: Thank you. Dan Gotshall: I guess what it is you think that you think kind of influenced you to go into this kind of area? DVD: That’s a great question; it’s a tough question of course. It’s a basic culture. My parents are, my father especially, they were politically in a different place, politically more conservative but socially they were, for them it was all about fairness and equality. In that regard, they both had a great sensitivity to that. Probably my mother especially, and so even though I don’t remember specific lessons about people of color and where I grew up there were very few people of color. I grew up in rural Michigan; still, that culture of fairness was really, really important in my family and then, my Christian beliefs, as a clergy, for me that is basic to the gospel. Justice, all are God’s children and so discriminating against people and setting up systems that discriminate against people is just anti-biblical as well as far as I’m concerned. DW: Do you ever infuse any of these personal beliefs and also, when you talk about Christianity, it’s just doing the right thing, trying to send the right message; do you infuse any of these into your sermons when you preach? DVD: Oh sure. The church I pastor is very socially active and it understands Christianity to be a liberation kind of a perspective and that Jesus really is the liberator in many kinds of ways. So, it’s central to my understanding of the gospel, therefore to my preaching. Hopefully it goes that way at least. DW: Let’s see here. Let’s talk about your upbringing a little bit as well. You mentioned you have multiple siblings. When you were growing up, did any of your siblings; did any of your family members, any of your friends, really just go through any discrimination against them, or anything along those lines? DVD: I grew up on a dairy farm in a rural community, a sizeable dairy farm. My oldest brother and sister are adopted, which may be, you know, sort of right from there it was clear there was no difference in terms of how valued or loved they were as compared to us, so maybe right from the beginning there was that sense of, you know, it didn’t matter ones origin and so forth, we were equally valued. I don’t remember, and in my family, we were dominant culture people, you know, we’re white, we were rural people. but were dairy farmers and the hierarchy of farmers is just crazy, but there’s a hierarchy there to so the dairy farmers were, as I look back at it, probably at the top of the hierarchy in that community. But, interesting, and actually I went to a one room school house for the first four years of my life, and in the Adrian area there is a fairly large number of people who settled there having been migrant workers, so there’s a fairly large Hispanic, particularly Mexican, population there. There was a family that went to the same one room school house that were on the other side of the school a few miles away and they had a bunch of kids, and some of them were my age. We were allowed, as kids, their parents spoke no English, and I would, I remember going to stay with that family, I’d stay overnight with my friend there, they had chickens in their attic and so forth and culturally were very different from us. But my parents allowed us to do that. We didn’t think anything of it because I was pretty young. That was a really helpful early cultural experience and my parents had no qualms at all about going in to what was the Mexican community for restaurants and it wasn’t like I had a sense that some people stayed out of that Page 3 �community. I think those are just subtle ways, or I guess not so subtle ways that I didn’t understand at the time as a child, but that I took in. DW: Also, when you were growing up, was there anyone that you looked up to within the Civil Rights Movement, or going to college anyone along those same lines? DVD: Well, certainly as I got into later high school and college, certainly Dr. King because that was very vivid at that point, but also Malcom X. I think Malcom X is really underrated in relation to the whole Civil Rights Movement. I think his legacy, it wasn’t a challenge of Dr. King but is was expressing that that whole era of black power and so forth was a really important expression and Malcom X was really key. I still think his autobiography is very powerful and everybody ought to read it. It goes through his transformation and his early influences and Marcus Garvey, going back, certainly W. E. B. Dubois but also Howard Thurman. Howard Thurman is really kind of a mystic, very powerful figure who started the Church of All Nations in San Francisco. He did a number of writings and in fact he wrote Jesus and the Disinherited in 1947. It was really a precursor to the African American liberation theology, powerful, powerful stuff so he’s one that I very much admire. He doesn’t get any credit in terms of the whole justice struggle for African-Americans but he was really very key I think in that. DG: As your career moved on and as you moved into this area, how did your thinking about your identity change and grow? DVD: I guess it grew and solidified as an ally. That’s really because really early on, I was also involved with… even I was out of high school for a year after college, I was out a year before going to college and then that year I was involved with wider church things and got very involved in justice for gay and lesbian people. So I was a youth leader in our denomination state wide structure and so at that annual meeting I was really involved with that so I began to see the need for and the role of allies in a number of liberation studies. You know, that, that role and the identity, the need for that, but also the identity, clarity about the identity in terms of white privilege, because one can’t do this work without doing work on yourself, that’s where most of the work happens for dominant culture people so I think doing that work, understanding that work needed to be done and continues to need to be done is a big part of it. My identity as part of that white privilege class, that takes a lot of work. DW: I’m glad you brought up the concept of the ally, because one of the things I had planned on asking you, and this is one of the things I’m trying from Colette as well, is do you consider yourself to be an ally of the LGBT community? DVD: Oh definitely, definitely. That’s, for whatever reason, just early on it seemed to me that the way people are is the way people are and what threat is that to others. So being able to stand with LGBT people is really important. That’s certainly an area where the church that I pastor has been very strong in as well. We’ve influenced each other I think, and the church’s very, very early public stance of openness toward LGBT people. DW: And for you personally, has that always been a mantra that you’ve had, since a young age, or has that developed in time? Page 4 �DVD: Well it’s developed. You know, at a young age you don’t understand those kinds of things and I was at time when homophobia was rampant, especially amongst high school kids when you’re dealing with your own sexual identity and so forth. Then, even more than now still with many people misunderstanding what orientation is as opposed to same sex attraction from time to time, which everybody has along the way. All that confusion is rampant within adolescent kids; that was the case in the culture that I grew up in. But by late high school or certainly by early college in that year I was off, just came to understand and I guess got to know a few gay people, though I don’t think they were “out” gay at that point, but I just had a sense that that was the case. It was early 70’s, it was just beginning to be kind of an issue, at least amongst folks who were not gay or lesbian in that community, among straight folks, it was just beginning to be a justice issue. So from there on, it was important. In seminary, I went to a very progressive seminary with gay folks there, as well as people of color. It was really a heady mix. So, I think I just continued to grow, and as I grew in terms of my biblical understanding it also deepened, I think, that conviction for justice. DW: When you say that this is something you personally believe in, and that your church is behind this, how has that been received by your congregation? DVD: Well the congregation actually made it happen. In my church that I pastor and the denomination that I am in is pretty much structured from the bottom up, so there’s a great deal of local church autonomy so the church votes on everything. If it’s going to be a policy of the church, the congregation votes. So, really in the late 90s we had no openly out or gay people in the congregation at that point. We had parents and siblings and so forth of gay folks. We decided that this was an issue that we really needed to look at very carefully. So, we did a yearlong study on what we called then homosexuality in the church. Then, after that, we did another year of study on becoming an officially open and affirming congregation. Having done that, we went to the congregational meeting having a resolution to become open and affirming, and the congregation voted. There were two extensions of one “no” vote to become open and affirming, and that was in 1998. Part of that means that you are open , not just with LGBT people, but you’re clear with the community that that is your stance, the feeling being that, because the church has been and in many quarters is still a big part of the problem and the discrimination against gay-lesbian-transgender people, then it needs to be clear if it’s not. It needs to be open and affirming of them just as they are, just because we’re assumed to be against LGBT people if we don’t. So that was what happened and we continued to grow in that regard and with that understanding and even though, as I said, we started out without any “out” gay people in the congregation, 25-30% of our congregation now is LGBT. It’s become who we are; LGBT folks are part of the full life of the congregation, serve every place and there’s absolutely no discrimination about who serves where, including nursery and youth groups and all that kind of thing. DW: So now within the congregation itself and within the community, have you received any negative backlash because of it? DVD: Well, within the congregation when it happened a few people decided to leave, though actually more people decided to come, because that was what they hoped and expected out of a church. Yeah, we certainly, it’s amazing the kinds of negative stuff that comes from the community and people who claim to be , in this case, Christian, but just say all kinds of God-awful stuff in the tape machine and Page 5 �quote scripture to me like I’ve never read it. And, you know, a few threats, but it’s not a few threats toward everybody. I’ve had a few threats doing racial injustice work differently, that I have to work with LGBT issues, so yeah you get that and people who think you’re just crazy and can’t possibly be Christian, but truthfully, I’ve gotten much more support than negatives by folks, and they tend not to be church folks, some of them are, but a lot of them aren’t because they’ve given up on the church, but at least say “yeah, that’s what the church ought to be doing.” So, really probably overall more positive than negative. DW: Have you ever felt that your personal safety has been an issue with this at all? DVD: My general motto is, if people make the threat, they’re probably not going to follow through on it. Only one time with a threat and this is in terms of racial justice issues, I showed a copy of what I received to a fellow clergy, and made a copy of what I’d received just in case something happened. At that point I didn’t feel that it was appropriate to go to the police with it but I definitely wanted somebody else to know and I didn’t share it within the congregation because I didn’t figure that it was, you know, it gets everybody nuts and takes it off what the real issue is and that’s the justice part of it. If there would have been threats made against my family or anything like that, and we live a little ways away from the church in our own home, and it didn’t feel like I wanted to give it any more credence at all really. Fortunately, that turned out to be right. DG: Going with some of the past things you’ve said, what kinds of changes within the community have you seen throughout your involvement? DVD: Well in terms of racial justice issues, really early on part of some of the instances I was involved with were a school superintendent here who is African-American, and this was the early 80s, who is pushed out, and all those issues, there are a lot of issues going on in addition to perceptions caused by one’s race, but that highlighted some of the racism in the community. What I’ve seen is many, many people in the community becoming now really aware of what racism looks like, especially institutionalized racism, which is the definition of racism as far as I’m concerned, and doing a number of things to try and combat that. The business community really, Bob Woodrick was early on really involved with that. I chaired a committee, the Grand Rapids Urban League, which began to really look at racism in the community and out of that, David Bach was a part of that, and out of that came the Institute for Racial Justice, out of race the Grand Rapids Center for Humanism and they did a great deal of really, really fine work with the Racial Justice Institute. Bob Woodrick was working in terms of hiring and in terms of the number of businesses, and so now in the community there are a great number of businesses who are very involved in hiring in non-discriminative ways, putting their law firms, other kinds of firms, businesses of all kinds putting people through cultural sensitivity, all kinds of courses. So there’s a lot that has happened in that regard and I think many more people of color in leadership positions and in positions of more power, influence and responsibility in corporations within the community. Is it a thing in the past? Of course not. You look at economic issues-it’s alive and well .A lot of people’s perspectives, still the discrimination differences based on color is there, if you look at school system and the lack of support by the public school system of Grand Rapids by a number of people especially a number of folks with means. I think you still see lower expectations of people of color within the general public, which is still racist. Page 6 �DW: Going back for a sec, could you please give me the dates served with the Grand Rapids Urban League that you were a member of? DVD: Well, I probably began in the Urban League in about 1981. I’ve been on and off, more on that off most of the time since, including I’m on now. I chaired the Urban League two years, and that was probably…2003, 04 maybe, 2003-2005, somewhere around there. DW: Thank you. Let’s talk a little more about your church right now. Have there been things that you guys have done, to just, reduce discrimination within the surrounding area aside from just hunger drives or to fight social injustice as well? DVD: Well, we’re socially active in terms of mission, which we see in terms of helping individuals and social justice, which we see as trying to change systems. We have a just peace task force that continues to be very active, and the biggest thing that we’ve done, which was local in one way but was really opposing the involvement and the invasion of Iraq. We began with a whole wage peace initiative so we were very involved with that. Beginning with that and still we’ve been very involved with a number of groups and agencies that are involved with anti-discrimination and teaching peace. In addition we’ve used church property to build housing for people with chronic mental illness. Talk about a group discriminated against, in all kinds of ways, in terms of public perception, housing, just everything. So, (we’ve been) directly involved with that group in terms of finding housing and then advocacy on their behalf, or with them. I hate to talk about “on people’s behalf” because it makes them sound like they don’t have power. They do have power; it’s more a matter of standing with them. We also, it terms of more direct kinds of ways we’re also a host for Family Promise, which is a group that houses homeless families in churches on a rotating basis. That’s more of a direct service but it’s working directly with many people. Many people of color are caught up in the whole economic disparity that has been rampant, especially for people of color, for a long time. Other than that we try to be as a congregation very involved with local proposals, like when Grand Rapids included sexual orientation in terms of protected class, in terms of non-discrimination. When things come up in the community that are issues with racial injustice, we tend to be both as individuals in the congregation and as a community, we tend to be pretty involved with that. DW: Thank you. DVD: In terms of talking about the church, and this is an extension of the church, an extension of me, I was part of the group that organized Concerned Clergy, which organized in 1995, 96. There was a whole lot of discrimination at that point against gay folks, so a few of us got together and decided that as pastors, we really needed to take a stand and speak to our churches, to our church communities and to the community at large that LGBT people ought to be part of the full life and ministry of the churches and the community. Not as objects of mission, but as full particiapants. We began gathering clergy and had a sizeable group that did a letter to the community that was published on the front page of the Sunday issue in, it must have been spring of 96 or 97, and at that point, talk about shifts within community’s perception. Prior to our letter, which was signed by about 60 or 70 clergy in West Michigan, and people were amazed that there were that many clergy who were 1) supportive and 2) wanted to sign. Letters to the editor, prior to that, were very anti-gay and they acted like they were Page 7 �speaking on behalf of everybody, that their perspective was the community norm. People who were supportive of LGBT people were writing more defensively. After a year, after our letter to the community came out and we were doing much more support and a number of other things for people, letters to the editor written by people against LGBT people seemed to be defensive, they were no longer speaking on behalf of the whole community. If you weren’t looking for it maybe you didn’t see it, but it was a very clear shift in the community’s perspective, and right around that time is when I take that this community began to shift from just assuming that the Bible and everybody was against LGBT people to having to think about that differently and at least begin to question that that’s not the case. There are some times when you see community shifts and that one for me was pretty clear, that moment in time. DW: Have you ever taken, or thought about taken these beliefs that you’ve certainly infused within the community to sort of a national level? DVD: Well, we’ve been involved and I’ve been involved with, especially our denomination and other denominations in terms of our church’s experiences as well as being involved in advocacy levels on the national level both with our own denomination and with the welcoming movement. I’ve attended a couple times; it’s called Witness our Welcome which is a national gathering of welcoming individuals and welcoming churches. I’ve had a role of speaking there with strategizing and our experiences, so that’s an important thing to try to do this at whatever levels can be done. DW: Gotcha. Sort of just the fight against discrimination today is a lot different than the 1960s. Then it was more of a racial thing, today it’s more fighting for causes, more anti-war, as we’ve been talking a lot about the LGBT movement. Can you sort of compare the two at all or is it more of a different era. DVD: Well, it’s, discrimination and prejudice discrimination and how they’re institutionalized have many, many common threads. All of them at baseline are devaluing people, based on something that is a bias of the dominant culture and so in that they have a great deal in common. As a dominant culture person, I can say that they have a lot of things in common, but I can’t speak for, I can speak for differences I observe but I can’t speak authoritatively for the differences that people in those various groups that have been discriminated against can. A lot of folks sort of lively put the struggle for gay rights and the struggle for racial justice in the same place, and they are very different. There are allies in both of those communities. The dominant culture wants to either put them together as the same struggle or they want to pit them against each other, neither of which is appropriate. The bottom line is the dominant culture’s desire to keep things the way they are and it’s usually, or often an unexamined assumption on what’s most valuable, what’s most important, and then those have become institutionalized. Some of the best people and some of the most non-discriminative people I know are the heads of some of the most discriminative corporations I know, because that’s where racism is institutionalized. The call in all of these areas is to be anti-racist or anti-sexist or anti-orientation bias in that regard. Some of the people in cultures, some of the cultures that have been most discriminated against, like African-American cultures, say yeah, these issues of liberation and discrimination are much the same. There are also some big differences but we of all people ought to be sensitive to other people’s issues around those issues. For me, it’s an issue of justice overall and the step that’s further for me is well being for the whole community because the whole community, including the dominant community suffers when the gifts of various people and cultures are not included. So we need for the best of the whole culture overall, we Page 8 �need the gifts because hopefully there is a selfish part of it as well that really sees the value of those, from the gifts that people bring across the board. That’s what makes these issues and this movement partnerships rather than missions or “on behalf of”. Nobody wants to be, nor should they be, objects of missions. That’s a subtle but really powerful form of discrimination as well. It says, “We need to do this for you, or to you”, we need to do it for ourselves as well and we need to do it in partnerships so everybody gains. DG: So you feel like in the community as a whole you’ve seen a lot of progress? DVD: There has been, there has been a lot of progress. I don’t think can be denied. Certainly, overt racism is much less than it was. There’s still a lot of overt individual prejudice and prejudice that gets mouthed so that people of color certainly get called names or get turned against or turned away from, devalued in many settings, both institutionally and by individuals but not as much as has been the case in the past, so there’s progress being made but that’s not to say that it’s not happening. When it becomes ingrained economically as well, it’s really a component of economic issues and poverty but it’s hard to see where all those threads run and how exactly, clearly there’s that legacy of discrimination and its taken root in disparities, economically as well. In terms of the LGBT arena, certainly great progress made there as well. There are many, many people who are willing to stand up and say, “Discrimination against LGBT people is absolutely wrong”. There’s a lot more places where LGBT people can feel safe and welcome. A lot more church communities now. When we became open and affirming we were the only church outside of the gay-denomination church in town who was openly welcome to an affirming stance of the church. Now there are a number of them and there are more who are welcoming or at least gay friendly. So again, there’s a lot of change in that regard as well but you still get the backlash. Look at Holland. They weren’t willing to pass a, to include anti-gay in their protective class and state-wide, the referendum that made it clear that only between a man and a woman was an official marriage so there’s that backlash, there’s still a lot that still needs to be done. DW: This might be a difficult thing to answer but is it possible for you to measure success in terms of fighting against racial discrimination, social injustice and just the protests of anti-LGBT community? DVD: Well, it’s possible; it’s probably not advisable. It’s possible in the sense that yeah, you can look back and say, “Some things have changed, and some things have changed for the better.” There are times when unfortunately you look back and say, “Gee, things have not changed for the better,” but for me, and I suppose this comes out of my religious stance as well, you don’t do it because you’re certainly going to make a difference, you do it because it’s the right thing to do. There was a great interview, I think it was Daniel Berigen, who was very involved from early on pre-60s but 60s and 70s, all the way through with anti-war, justice of all types and as he was getting older, his years, and this was probably in the late 90s, he was asked, “So many other people who were involved with you early on have dropped out of the movement. They got discouraged. Why are you still involved?” And he said to them, “Well, it wasn’t because I thought I could make a difference, that was what I was called to do.” So for me, trying to work on behalf of, in my religious language, trying to work on behalf of the world you think God intends is what I was called to do. So it’s really nice if you can see progress because that keeps us going. Everybody wants to think they’re doing something worthwhile, but these are huge issues and there is urgency but they also can take a huge amount of time and so continuing that urgency that any more Page 9 �time of discrimination of victims is way too many-that was Dr. King’s point in The Grand Urgency of Now but one also has to realize that sometimes things change slowly. DG: Are there any works or any writing that you hold very highly and represent what you do very well? DVD: Oh boy, yeah but the titles always leave my head. For me, the liberation theologies are really important, the early African-American liberation theologies, the central-American ones, Gustavo Gutierrez, his writings. Women, minority women, This Bridge Called My Back I recall, that was in the early 80s was a really powerful book for me. Walking on Thorns by Ellen Busack was in the middle of the anti-apartheid movement. Further back, Paul Tillick’s Love, Power and Justice was really, really key for me. A number of more recent writings by gay and lesbian people, a number of them now that they’re particularly important. As I said, probably the first book that really began to shift perspective for me was, as I referenced before, Howard Thurman’s Jesus and The Disinherited and there’s a very early writing by Olive Schriener who was a white south-African woman, late 1800s early 1900s who did some writing on women and women at labor on African farms. They’re out of print now, but just amazing things, not as much by what they said, though that’s some of it, but also by who said it out of what era and so forth. Desmond Tutu’s book about hope, really another good one. I try to do a lot of reading in those areas and things that go together in relations between titles and authors, but yeah, there’s a lot of really powerful stuff out there. DW: Thank you. We have talked a lot about the progress that has been made both by you personally, by your church, by the community. Are there any areas that you feel are still lacking in progress or that the least progress has been made in terms of just fighting social injustice? DVD: Well, I think in schools. It’s an entrenched, devaluing of urban school and urban children and I just think that is an area, I think urban children are highly discriminated against. You don’t have to say that it’s intentional or that people are consciously against, but I think if you look at lack of support for, lack of valuation of urban school districts including Grand Rapids, that’s an area that you just can’t deny. Urban kids are devalued. That’s all one needs to know when you’re dealing with discrimination, that a certain group of folks is devalued. And so, that’s cause enough to try to deal with that devaluation, since there’s discrimination, prejudice there that is the root of that. So that’s an area that certainly needs to be. An area that’s beginning to get a little progress, but a huge amount more needs to be made in terms of understanding and non-discrimination is transgender people. There is a much, much larger transgender or what the dominant culture would call gender variant community out there than most folks, especially most straight folks, would understand. They’re in a particularly difficult place because they’re lumped by the dominant culture with gay and lesbian and bisexual folks, but that’s a very different reality. LGB folks aren’t transgender, don’t want to be identified as transgender, transgender folks have a whole different set of things so I think sophistication in that regard, both in understanding and non-discrimination for transgender folks really needs to be, more progress needs to be made. It’s just beginning to happen. DW: I guess to, how do you feel that society will in time, or do you feel that society in time will stop devaluing some of these groups of people? Page 10 �DVD: Well, in relation to LGBT folks, that’s moving very fast; that genie is out of the bottle. So, you see, one has to be careful historically, you see that cultures do go backwards sometimes and the backlash, you see how strong it is with groups like the American Family Association that focus on the family and so forth and even some well-moneyed people in West Michigan giving up a lot of money to those groups that want to turn the clock back on gay rights so you have to be careful and keep working and not assume that this is just going to go forward. But, that as I say, is not going back in the closet, so I think you can see how fast that is moving, surveys in relation to the people who are favor of legal marriage for LGBT people, those have moved up very fast. You see the places and states where that has happened. I think that your generation and people younger than you, so college kids, traditional aged college kids and younger are much, much more open to various people of color, culture, various cultural expressions, so I think that if we can keep the older generations from effecting them too much, and help both the older generation and that generation to see how this is perpetuated in systems that they need to combat, then we’ll continue to make progress on a racial justice scale as well. DW: Kind of the track a little bit, but have you seen the campaign video by Governor Rick Perry of Texas? DVD: I haven’t. DW: Basically, he has this, “Strong” is the title of the video I believe. It’s an advertisement where he goes off against the gay community, and it’s had a huge negative backlash for him personally, but what is your response when someone with political power like that, he’s running for President next year, what’s your response when there is still that sort of ignorance within society, at that kind of level? DVD: Well, it’s scary for one. It makes me angry for another. It’s used for political gain, it may well be his beliefs but it was clear when Bush won his second term that the issues that were put on the ballot had to do in many states, especially the states that were very important in his winning, were ones that dealt with homosexuality especially because they were trying to get out that right wing vote, and it worked. If you look at Ohio, Michigan I believe it was that year, but certainly it was Ohio and some of those key states, so it’s a political strategy as well. He probably believes that, but they’ve seen that they can get mileage out of it. It worries me about what do they perceive that they’re buying into or rather pulling out of the electorate and you know, they’re playing into those prejudices, those fear tactics that the US that we once had, which is probably a fantasy for most people, will come again if we just keep these bad people outside. It worries me on several levels that there are enough people to buy into it along with some other sort of ideological issues that can get somebody, hopefully not that extreme but still same kinds of people who would vote for him would vote for a person who is a little bit less extreme and have that power in the nation. I think you see that in the Michigan legislature. I think it is certainly not at all friendly to LGBT issues, so I find it scary. I would like to find it laughable but I think one needs to take it more seriously than that, but I hope it really does backfire on him. DW: It’s got several hundred thousand dislikes on YouTube now, I believe, compared to just hundreds of likes. DVD: Yeah, but who is sitting there who never gets on their computer who is going to vote for somebody who represents those kinds of views. But that just means that the people who aren’t, the Page 11 �people who think that that is just nonsense need to stand up, you can’t assume that others think that’s nonsense; you got to say that too. DW: Gotcha. That’s really all I’ve got. (To Dan) Is there anything else you’ve got? DG: Yeah, I think we’ve gone over pretty much everything? DW: Okay. (To Doug) Is there anything else personally you’d like to add for the project? DVD: Umm, no. I guess not. It’s been interesting to think of the sort of parallel tracks but not much intersection of the anti-discrimination issues in terms of civil rights for people of color and LGBT rights. I’ve been involved with both of those and people who know I’m involved with both of those, especially even in the black community, are supportive of me in that regard, but it would be, hopefully as we move along there will be less separateness to those two struggles than there is now, so that’s happening but the racial justice struggle really needs to continue, it can’t be overshadowed by anything else. It needs to continue with strong support and advocacy all the way through. It can’t be overshadowed but other ones need to be on parallel tracks so hopefully they will see themselves in concert with each other as well. DW: Gotcha. DVD: All right. DW: Thank you very much. DVD: Yeah, you’re very welcome. DW, DG: We really appreciate it. DVD: It was nice to meet you both. END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/12ec7e39525f1491b4913ec11a005e7a.mp3 54534662bdc4d92bc6821d60ca1717c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Van_Doren_Doug Title A name given to the resource Doug van Doren audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doren, Doug van Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Shae Gotshall, Daniel Wolff, Derek Description An account of the resource Doug van Doren is a pastor of Plymouth United Church of Christ and he is involved with the community in a number of areas. In this interview he describes experiences of discretionary practices and prejudice toward people of color in the West Michigan area. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca178fb931566331b28f89a05db3d655.pdf 8771be6ce4360bf82edf83fc8a54ac2e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections IntervieweOMOH: Esiloza Omoh Interviewers: Briana Burke Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections DatOMOH: 9/30/2011 Biography and Description Esiloza Omoh was born in Legos, Nigeria, raised in Chicago, Illinois, and attended Grand Valley State University. She graduated with a degree in Biomedical Science. She discusses her experiences with discrimination because of the color of her skin. Transcript BURKE: We are here today, Friday September 30th, with Esiloza Omoh at Allendale, Michigan and here to talk about your experiences with civil rights in western Michigan. To start off could you please give us some basic information about yourself; where you are from and your family and some background? OMOH: Well, my name is Esiloza but I usually go by Esi. I am twenty-three years old and I recently graduated from Grand Valley with a Biomedical Science major. I was originally born in Legos Nigeria, and my family immigrated to the United States about thirteen years ago. And we lived in Chicago for about eight or nine years before I moved to Grand Rapids to go to school. BURKE: OK. So what about your family? Tell us about your family, your parents, siblings... OMOH: I have two brothers and two sisters and my mom was in Nigeria and my father recently passed away in February, so he’s no longer with us but he was also living in Nigeria. I have two older sisters, one older brother and one little brother. I have family, they live, I have two siblings that live in Chicago, one in Memphis, Tennessee and another one in Dekaib, Illinois. And they’re pretty much done with school except for my little brother who’s in college in Northern Illinois. So I’m the only one in Grand Rapids Michigan. BURKE: OK. So what about your ancestors and your community involvement? OMOH: Would you like me to talk about the ancestors first? BURKE: Sure. Yeah. OMOH: Oh, well I don’t really know too much about my ancestors. I do know that I have a lot of aunts and uncles. My father’s, my paternal grandfather married four wives... Page 1 �BURKE: Wow. OMOH: And my maternal grandfather married five wives? So I have a lot of extended family... (laughs)... yea BURKE: (laughs) Wow. OMOH: And we’re all related through my grandfather so yea BURKE: OK. OMOH: I don’t think we would call his wives step-mothers because they really weren’t step mothers they were just other wives. BURKE: Right. OMOH: So, yea. My maternal grandparents died before I was born and my father’s father died when I was about two and my father’s mother passed away when I was about six or seven. So, I don’t really know a lot about my grandparents or extended family and then at a young age I moved to America so I was removed from them I have no family in this country except for my siblings. So, I’m further away from them. But it was a good chance to meet them like I said in February. My father passed away and I had to go back to Nigeria for the burial and I was meeting cousins and aunts and uncles that I have never meet in my entire live before and I believe I have about eighty or ninety uncles and aunts and I’m not even gonna’ talk about the cousins .. . (laughs)... I don’t even know and its crazy cuz’ we all look alike (laughs) and its weird because it’s like I’ve never seen you before in my life and I’ve never heard about you and this big large group of people are family... BURKE: Oh, wow! OMOH: So... gotten’ used to that I don’t remember half of their names but we still keep in touch with the Facebook ... (laughs) ... it’s a good social media type of tool to use. BURKE: Right, Yea. (laughs) OMOH: But, yeah, apart from like my immediate history like I knew where I grew up... my father was the first child to go to school period. BURKE: Wow. OMOH: In his family, so he grew up in the village and um his father and mother were slightly, not slightly, but mostly illiterate. So he said that he was also the first child of all of the wives. So he was kind of like a father when his father passed away. So he had to go to school, he had to move, he left the village to go to the city to go to school because you have a better education there. And he went on to go get his college degree, his masters, his doctorate everything, he has so many different degrees in law and finance and everything. And um, since he became the father because Nigeria back in the day and still kind of right now is mostly male dominated BURKE: OK.. Page 2 �OMOH: So... when his father passed away he became the “husband” to the wives, so if anything they had that needed to get done they had to ask his permission. So he became in charge of sending his brothers and sisters to schools and his immediate brothers and sisters sent his half brothers and sisters to schools and be sure that they didn’t get into trouble and try and support them in what they wanting. So it was kind of... kind of weird because he came, he had his own kids which me and my siblings but then had twenty or thirty other kids also. BURKE: Right OMOH: Actually, I met an aunt that’s younger than me (laugh) OMOH: (laugh) So I was like.., interesting! So he, he has been taking care of a lot of stuff. So. BURKE: Wow. OMOH: Don’t really know too much more about his side of the family, I know more about my mom’s side of the family because they were more active in my life. And I have a lot of cousins and aunts there on her side also that I met more of when I went to Nigeria in February. It’s kind of over welcoming because it’s not like the customary “Oh, I have five six cousins or maybe ten cousins...” Just on both sides it’s like there’s sixty cousins here and then one-hundred and fifty here. Cuz’ each, each wife like say has like five or six kids, BURKE: Right. OMOH: And my mom was telling me back in the day that they tried to have a lot of kids so that they have more kids working and helping you around the house or the farm or whatever. So each, imagine, each child having six kids and then one of those six going to make six more... BURKE: Mhm OMOH: It’s a lot. Actually we only have, my mom only has five kids and that’s kind of small compared to her other brothers and sisters (laugh) So BURKE: (Laugh) wow OMOH: Not to many Nigerians these days have big nuclear family. Most of them keep like two three, maybe four kids. But kind of like I was learning the history here, down south mostly like it wasn’t uncommon for someone to have twelve, thirteen kids. I was like wow that’s a lot because usually because of lack of health care back in the day it wasn’t uncommon for a child to day in child birth or maybe three, four years old it would die because of some sickness... BURKE: Right. OMOH: So, everyone’s just poppin’ out kids (laugh) helped them out. So, just trying to keep my answers straight here, what was the other question you asked? Page 3 �BURKE: About the community involvement OMOH: You mean like my volunteer experience? BURKE: Yeah, anything! OMOH: Well, I try to stay, whatever community I’m in, I try to stay very involved. Like for example, I currently tutor math to kids at the Gerald Ford Job Court. BURKE: OK. OMOH: I don’t know if you’re familiar with that... its a center for at risk youth between ages of sixteen to twenty-four, where they usually go there basically if they’ve dropped out of school or they’re trying to reorganize their lives. So we help them get their GED or get their H.S. credits. Usually these kids are, like I said dropped out, or been gang related activity or been bused for drugs or something and it is kind of like a fresh start for them to get to live on the facilities so they don’t have to worry about housing because some of them might have been homeless or been in some situations where they don’t want to go back. So which actually made them go in the streets in the first place, so they don’t have to worry about food or housing. They don’t have to worry about paying for GED, pre-testing, or ACT classes so they get their GED, high school credit and also help them apply for college and also get ajob. So we also have training modules, like training to get a CNA positions or different trades. We also have a trade’s school. So I volunteer there, and I also work at Cross Roads High School, which is an alternative high school where kids also similar to the kids at Gerald Ford Job Court. Except these kids haven’t been kicked out of high school they’ve just been kicked out of their community high school because they got into trouble, violations, got into fight or were at risk or injuring themselves or other students. So they are trying to get back the credits so they can graduate on time or just graduate period, because some of them they’re still attached to getting a GED versus a high school degree. So we’re helping them with that and the after school program is from 2:30 to 5:45, I’d say 5:45, so that after they get from school we provide them with another snack because some kids don’t have food at home. So we give them that, and then we have some kind of activity to make them involved and show them that you can still have fun without any violence or illegal activities. hat word am I looking for? Incorporate to their activities that they do. And then we give them free time from them to either play basketball or we bring out the wii system or something so that we can also reinforce so that the healthy living aspect to where you have to have some healthy physical activity so you have a healthy youth. Excuse me, so after that we also give them a school bus system to get back home so they don’t have to get on the city bus where they might meet somebody that they might get into a fight with. Again because these kids, we try to get them out of their atmosphere of violence and from that community of people they might know of people that might make them go back to their habits. And what else do I do... I used to do a lot more when I was at Grand Valley because I had a lot more time but now I try to be limiting my volunteer activities to a minimum so I can actually get a job. So apart from that, that’s basically what I do... Oh Yea! I have one more thing actually, I might become affiliated with west Michigan non-profit something.. .collation for a non-racist environment. Where we are basically going to be pushing different initiatives for students and community members to become familiar with the effects of racism, poverty, homelessness and all of that and seeing how we can come together as a community strengthening Page 4 �ourselves and help the less fortunate. So... there’s a lot of words in the title, I’m gonna get it right one day. But that’s what I’m looking into becoming involved with, actually I had an interview for that today so, I try to stay involved in my community. BURKE: Very cool, so now do you want to tell us about your actually move to the United States? Like what was that like for you and your family? OMOH: Oh, yea I could do that. I can’t even explain it, we went from being overwhelmed, and to culture shocked to a whole different sensations it smelt different here. I grew up around a lot of trees so we had fresh air and then coming into Chicago you could smell the congestion. We have European people in Nigeria so I didn’t really come across someone who wasn’t black. So either most people were black or brown or some variation of that skin tone. So coming here where I saw white, I saw Asian I saw Hispanic and a whole bunch I was like ‘oh my gosh people look so different!” I used to go like, I came here in the fifth grade, so I used to touch peoples hair a lot which in America I learned there is personal space (laugh) OMOH: You can’t just touch people hair! Cuz I’ve never touched anyone else’s hair that wasn’t like mine. I thought it was amazing when I first saw somebody with green eyes. It was kind of scary because I couldn’t believe somebody had colored eyes! (laugh) But I mean in Nigeria we have cable we weren’t like back woods people. I’ve seen on TV that people have blonde hair but I’ve never in real life seen the green and blue eyes except for like brown eyes. So that was amazing! And then I finally got to eat pizza! So when I was younger we had cartoon network in Nigeria and I used to wish I had this magic ring (giggle) where, cuz you have the Chucky Cheese commercials, I would just rub and pizza would appear! (laugh) So (lots of laughing!) OMOH: So my first experience with American food, when we got off the plane my Uncle picked us up, and we went to McDonalds. And my brother had chicken nuggets, which he thought, was like foods from the Gods (laugh) and then I had pizza! It took me awhile to get used to it, I wasn’t expecting it to be as wet, with the sauce! BURKE: Right! OMOH: Because on TV I saw like oh yea pizza cheesy but I didn’t expect the sauce! So I got used to that, but the food its, well for a lot of time I wouldn’t eat chicken here because I don’t know if you guys grew up on a farm or seen what an actual chicken looks like and a farm not like genetically enhanced, a chicken is very smaller than the chicken in Mejier! So I was just thinking this chicken is nasty like on drugs! Cuz it wasn’t like chicken in Nigeria! (laughter from both) And then eggs are like white! I grew up eating brown eggs! So I was like “oh my gosh!” The chicken and the eggs are different in America! So I didn’t wanna’ eat that. The water tasted so different, because in Nigeria we can’t just drink water out of the faucet. Ya know, like we have to get water from the tap, boil it and let it cool down then scoop the top because all the sediments sink to the bottom so you don’t get sick. So you take the scoop from top and put it in the refrigerator. So I had a ball drinking water from the tap! (laughter) Page 5 �It’s just the little things people take for granted. And then we came like around August, and then two months later it started snowing. I had never seen snow in my entire life! So (laughter) grown adults, me, my mom, my dad, brothers and sisters we just went outside and stood in the snow and had like our tongues out, the snows dripping and people are walking outside Chicago and was like what’s wrong with these people? Little did they know we had never seen snow before! So that’s one of the experiences I had in America, one of the few things that I do cherish. what else shocked me? Before coming to America I had never been on a plane before. BURKE: Really? OMOH: So we had one of the longest flights ever so I boarded and the plane’s flight was like sixteen hours. And so we finally came here and potato chips, never had potato chips before. when we talk about chips, at least in my family; we refer to potato’s that have been cut up, like homemade fries. But never had potato chips so experiencing the whole cookies and all those junk food because we weren’t really big on junk food. Especially not in my village at least, we had candy but the candy we had was like one hundred times less sugary (laughter) then the candy here. Like one jolly rancher is like three packs of candy in the ones I grew up with. So getting sugar, my first ever sugar rush was amazing! (laughter) What else did I go through? like I said the culture shock , in reference to culture shock they always talk about like for an example stereotypical white person teaching them to deal with the black person . So you might go to college, you might see more Native Americans or Hispanics but they never really talk about the reverse. like they always take for granted just because you’re a minority you’re “diversified.” And that’s not true at all! Because I went through a culture shock, the biggest culture shock of my life when I came to America! Seeing so many different languages, so many different cultures, so many people that look so different! Because I feel that and culture is not about race; it’s about who you are what you have to bring, it’s about music, it’s about culture, it’s about your perspective and I had a very ignorant perspective on life. I knew based on TV that there was American’s, there were Europeans that looked different but based on TV I had never been to America before. I always saw, I always thought that everybody in America was rich, everybody was white, mostly, and that everybody was happy. And then my reference to black American’s was that they were always fighting amongst each other, only wanted to do rap and didn’t want anything to do with good things. And I came from that by watching TV! because we got CNN in Nigeria and we get cable so I see all these movies and a typical movie black people are in usually for a while they had all those movies in the nineties that came out about that it was always, always the black high school student and here comes the white teacher in to save the horrible kids and so they can go to school and try to help them read, that’s all the movies that we had! And on TV we saw that black people was always wanting to shoot and blood related movies and then you turned on MTV and always saw black people rapping so that’s what our view was. And it was very ignorant. I never knew the first black person that I met, the first black American that I met I asked him. It was very ignorant and I offended a lot of people. But I mean, I tried to apologize like I’m sorry I just came to America I don’t know what’s going on. And then the reverse thing happened. I used to feel really bad for being ignorant but then I stopped because (laughter) America is ignorant too. I had people tell me, not ask, tell me that, (I think I’ve told you this before) that I was a savage and that all my people lived in caves and we walk around naked and we hunt our own food. And I said regardless, I don’t know what part of Africa does that, I’m sure there’s some people who hunt their own foods but in Nigeria we Page 6 �have supermarkets (laughter) and we have forks and knifes and we also live in houses. There some people who don’t live under a house or an attached roofs, they might be poor they might live in an area where they are using their resources. Like in the village our house was made from clay. the red sand and then you mold that into brick and everything and used that. Why would you spend thousands, our currency is not that, but why would you spend thousands or Nira to ship cement from the city or buy cement blocks when you could just use your resources. BURKE: Right. OMOH: But, from an outsider looking in, because it’s not cement or plaster or whatever we are poor. So I was told that and it was very, well really shocke me was my experience with black American and white American’s. And I hate to always say black and white, I know there’s Hispanics and Asian decent but my experience mostly is with black and white. And I was really shocked when my white friends, I had to keep saying white, um do you prefer Caucasian? BURKE: No you’re fine OMOH: (laughter) Sorry, I don’t wanna offend anybody! (laughter) My experience with white people is so much more better than my experience with black people. It was not until I attending college here that I saw black people were “not as friendly.” I started learning about America’s history, black history, the black on black crime, the hatred, and all the things going up to the typical black male the typical black woman. And I had a lot of black people tell me to go back to Africa. That, they hated me because they thought that I didn’t know their heritage so they hated me based on relationships with other Africans who previously had said they weren’t real “blacks” because they didn’t know their mother land or something like that. So, growing up in American I gravitated more towards the Hispanics, the Whites, people from Asian descent, and really stayed away from black people until I came to high school. I had no choice I grew up in an all-black neighborhood, and I was referred to as “African booty scratcher.” I don’t even know what that means! Like you have to be African to scratch you’re booty!? BURKE: (laughter) I don’t know! (laughter) OMOH: I don’t understand! (laughter) So, I was referred to as “African booty scratcher” and other derogatory words and they would hate me on site. BURKE: (sorrowful) wow. OMOH: Not just I don’t like you. This is hate, hatred. And they always say when you think about racism, what do you think of? Do you think of white racist against blacks? They don’t really talk about black racists against white or black racist against black. And its racism, it’s not a dislike when an African doesn’t like an African American or vice versa. So, I never dealt with racism my entire life growing up in Nigeria. And I’m sure, there’s there is rivalries between each clan or the most I ever dealt with in Nigeria was like how the Christians and Muslims and the religious wars but at far as race it can’t really be racism because we are all the same race! We just have different ethnicities. BURKE: Right, OK. Page 7 �OMOH: Coming to America, I’d never hear of anybody hating on site just based on your skin color. And I had more racism from the black American’s and til this day I’ve still had more racism on black Americans ever then on white Americans! And, I can’t understand that because reading in the textbooks or I have a lot of African American classes and a lot of African American professors they talked to be about their struggles and I learned that I’m very appreciative to learn about the history. But they never really touch on it and what I would like to know more about is why black people might see African’s as a threat? But yea that would be my experience with culture shock. I don’t know I kind of rambled on a little bit (laughter) BURKE: (polite) That’s OK. So do you… off of what you said do you ever remember family members or any other friends being like specifically being discriminated against, like in your education, or employment or socially? Something like that have an effect on you? OMOH: Yeah. I mean I grew up in an all-black neighborhood and I saw, I saw it all. Especially, like, I grew up on the south side of Chicago so I don’t think I sound like I’m from Chicago; I’ve adopted this generic accent, American accent. I learned early on and also my family members did that if you do not speak correct American English it can be seen as a weakness, as a form of you as a dark tally against your intelligence. So, our family incorporated this accent, so that we could blend it sort of like a chameleon so that we could blend in with the citizens so that we don’t stand out. And in an all-black neighborhood, if you wanna pick up an accent it’s kind of like survival. If you sound like you’re not from around here they are like whatch’ you doing over here? And then you get picked on and stuff like that and probably robbed or whatever, just not to fit into stereotypes. So I picked up this accent, being like a black person I was able to I don’t know the word, filterate, is it filterate? I don’t know it’s a word that sounds like that. I’m trying to use big words (laughter). Into the black society around my neighborhood and if we go in groups like for example the Gerinoso which is like a version of Meijer here kind of. If we go to a store or like clothing store nobody would ask us for help. And if they did ask us if we actually needed help it was very cut down like this is what it is and then leave us alone versus if a white person came in they’d be like “oh are you ok are you ok” and everything. And then I had a white friend who thought it was funny to play these jokes where she would walk in and she would get helped and I would walk in and I wouldn’t get helped. And we both applied for ajob and I was more qualified than her and she get it and I didn’t. And she’ll go into these interviews and not even dress up! Like don’t even have a suit on and I would be like suited up and everything! Smelling good and everything! (laughter) Wouldn’t get the job. And she thought it was funny and least to say we are not friends anymore (laughter). But I was, I’ve experienced it, but it was kind of like experiencing what my friends were experiencing but it was like an out of body experience because we somebody was being racist or having racial slurs thrown out, it was like I knew it was bad but it didn’t hurt me because I didn’t grow up here! Versus my black friends would get upset. So, like going to the supermarket and then the owners trail you around trying to make sure you’re not stealing anything. I’ve been through all of that but I didn’t know what the meaning of it was, as far as my friends getting mad and saying oh because I’m its because I’m black. I didn’t grow up feeling like I had to prove myself in a white community. So, I don’t know I don’t think I am the best one to answer that question because when I think about racism I only know racism in learning about it and experiencing it, but not growing up in it. Does that make sense? Page 8 �BURKE: Mhm. OMOH: Yea. I don’t have like family or my grandparents tell me what they went through in the civil rights movement I’m just for it and learning about it. So, sorry (laughter) Sorry I don’t know what else to say. BURKE: (laughter). It’s OK. So, how would you describe your own identity? OMOH: Hmm. As what? As an American as a women? As a Nigerian? BURKE: Anything. How you perceive yourself. OMOH: Hmm. I perceive myself as (sigh) I would like to say strong black women. And when I say black I don’t mean African, Jamaican, or black American, just black because that’s my race. I used to always say that I was, I went from identifring as Nigerian, to African, to Black and vice versa, like it depends on how I feel. I do wear, my personality on me so, I do, you’ll always see me with some African jewelry on or my family we always grow up with bright colors so I’ll always have bright colors on me. Or something with flowers! Something just like that’s how I express myself! But since I’ve been in American, I’ve felt like the more years I spend in America, the less I can identified as being from African descent. I don’t really have a lot of “African” friends, I didn’t; so I feel like I’m losing myself which is why I pressingly cut my hair so that I can get back to my roots, and even that I felt was kind of like was making me a laughing stock because why would I have to cut my hair off to feel Africa-, I should always feel African. So, being born in one country and then growing up in another, messes with your head. And then I have another friend I don’t think she’d prefer, I’m not even gonna’ say her name... BURKE: That’s OK. OMOH: But she was born in Ethiopia but she grew up here. And I’ve had multiple talks with her and I highly respect her and so far she’s the only one that can understand me when I say that I identify as being African feeling kind of loss. Because there is core values that you learn in your ancestry, who you are that, you learn at a certain age. And I moved from Nigeria where I could attain that. So the only thing that I know, the only thing that I can identify as African is my name, how I look cuz’ we do have a look (laughter). It’s stereotypical! Nigerians you can’t really tell if they’re African because we can blend in with the normal American blacks, but some Africans you can just look and they’re African! And I am so jealous about that, because I want to be able to walk down the street and somebody look at me and say look she’s African. I don’t, I look like a black American. So, growing up in another country, I just feel like I’ve lost my roots, So, I don’t know yet how to identify. I identify as an adjective as strong, motivated, and independent. But as far as my cultural definition, that is something I am striving to complete, within myself. So (laughter) You’re laughing at me! BURKE: (polite laughter) I am not laughing. OMOH: So yea I don’t identify with that yet. BURKE: OK. Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adulthood where you felt you were treated differently because of your identity? Page 9 �OMOH: (long sigh) Yea... I don’t wanna talk about them (laugh) ... BURKE: If you don’t want to that’s OK. OMOH: I mean I could... it’s just... growing up in American has been rough. So rough. It’s like I don’t fit in with anywhere. I feel like I’m just this zombie... and to give you a heads up, it’s like to Americans, Americans see me as black. They don’t say that in Nigeria. Black Americans see me as being African they would never claim me as being a black American. But Nigerian, and most of my African friends don’t see me as African because I’ve been here for thirteen years and I can turn off my accent, turn on and off; but the strong edge of my accent has been lost because it’s been dulled down by the )American accent. So, I am neither American, black American or African, to them. I will always know what I am but speaking in my “accent” to like my Nigerian or African friends, they’ve said that multiple times they don’t even consider me Nigerian or African because once you come to America, apparently you lose that. And speaking in my accent I actually had a friend, a couple of friends tell me they couldn’t take me seriously because they thought that I was faking my accent. I had to prove with birth records, to a couple of other African friends that I was African. So just imagine that it’s like you aren’t American because you aren’t born here, other people see you as black American, the black American’s or African Americans, I don’t know which one to say because sometimes I’ve had friends who prefer to black and prefer to be African American so I say black American, kind of in the middle (laugh). So the black Americans don’t see me as being black and would never claim me as being black, and my African people don’t claim me as being African. So in a situation where you say based on my identity, there’s a lot. But to sum it up it has just been a learning experience and I feel that I would never want my child to go through what I’m going through. I mean I’m very grateful for what the sacrifices my parents made so that I can have a very good education and bright future. But sometimes I don’t know if it’s worth it, identifying as being African. I remember one day, high school they have say culture day and you get to wear your countries clothing or if you’re Irish you wear your Irish clothing or if your Hispanic, I know a lot of my Hispanic friends they always wore their favorite soccer team jersey or Africans or the Asians we always wear our culture guard. And I remember I was just so happy to finally wear that and be in a safe environment. Because when I first came to America, in Nigeria we have what you call English clothes which is what you wear like T-shirt and jeans and then you have your culture clothes wear BURKE: Mhm. OMOH: and I always like wearing my cultural clothes and when you wanna’ impress somebody you put on your culture clothes, what I’m saying. So I wanted to impress my classmates! And I walked in full on we call it Bubira above my head tied and I was like woo I’m about to do it looking good! And the silence that met when I first came to class was like deafening. It was heartbreaking because I was so excited to share my culture and it was like animosity. Somebody told me that I looked like I had stolen a tablecloth and wrapped it around myself. (sigh) it was just rough. And then at such a young age being so proud of who you are and then that kids in high school and elementary school they’re rough they’re mean but that’s all so you think that everybody else is like that at such a young age being met with such a negative response for showing who you are kind of just makes you not want to show the world who you are anymore. So, I don’t know still trying to working on who I am (laughter). But I feel like I’m getting better. I just wish that I didn’t have to go through that. I hope I answered your question (laughter). Page 10 �BURKE: Yeah, yep! Were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the discrimination in society? OMOH: Oh yeah! Especially like my teachers, my professors, church members they always encourage me especially when they knew that I wasn’t from America. They always believe that knowledge is power and empowering yourself like even though I didn’t I don’t identify as being black in America I am going to be judged as being black American because of my skin tone. So I need to know quick, very quickly the history of black Americans. I remember I took a gen-ed course here, perspectives on African American gender males, and they were talking about all these famous black people and the struggles of the civil rights movement and I’m just like asking questions. And then they’re like yeah such and such and I’m like. Everybody like and the professors picking on people like yeah what did this person do and I’m like studied the book (laughter). And he got so upset with me! And oh, he made me cry. BURKE: Awh. OMOH: And he was like you should know you’re history, you’re in college and he was like, oh who’s that guy, George Washington or somebody with the black panthers? I don’t know who these people are! This is not my country this is not my history. And he was like you should know your history! Basically saying I was a failure to the black people and I was just like I got so upset. One of my friends in the class she had to stop me because I started crying because I was so upset! I was like this is not my culture! And he was like what do you mean, you are a black American? No! I am Nigerian! I might not look like the stereotypically African. But I took this class so that I could learn more about black Americans. And he was just like, he was stunned. And I was like you have a doctorate degree but you are very ignorant. You just assumed because I was black in this black American class I had to be an African American. So, that’s only one of the few negative responses. But after he knew that he came around and he was very patient with me and it was kind of, kind of embarrassing to only know that there was these people that helped free some slaves. They really don’t tell you a lot in high school about civil rights movements and all that slavery and expeditions and all that . So, he taught me and he was like , I’m sorry, well he never said I’m sorry I take that back. (laughter) Well, I felt like he was sorry for judging that and I think the way he apologized was to be patient with me and challenge me throughout the whole semester about like learning about black history. Knowing about what racism is and that there’s not just white on black there is black on white, there’s black on black there is Hispanic on white, Hispanic on black, racism is racism! You define it to the very minimum; I didn’t know there were so many different definitions for racism. Like racism it’s just not hating another race, it’s that feeling your race is superior to another one. I never knew all that. So I learned about that and I had a lot of church members sit around and say back in my day we couldn’t ride in the front of the bus and now ya’ll just don’t wanna’ sit in front of the bus . Stuff like that so, I had a lot of people influential in my life and know about such things. BURKE: Were there any articles or books films or speeches or anything that influenced your thinking about race or ethnic issues? OMOH: I wouldn’t say films or books would tribute to the way I look at race, more to my upbringing. I didn’t grow up in a house of hate. I know people always say I didn’t grow up in a house of hate, my people my parents are very tolerant. I just didn’t grow up like that, and I don’t even think people realize Page 11 �off the bat what they are saying is racist. But derogatory because their parents are saying it to them and that it’s OK. My parents brought me up to see people as individuals regardless of their skin color. BURKE: Mhrn. OMOH: So, I don’t know. I just feel like everybody is equal and I am going to dislike you if you give me a reason to dislike you. I’m a very fun-loving person; it takes a lot for me not to like you. So I don’t know, a lot of people, especially in America, which I don’t understand because I could understand were in a country everybody looked alike for you to be racist against other people, but in American where nobody looks alike and we have so many middle and in between races, why people hate you on site based on your skin tone. I mean I’ve read a lot of books that , especially working as a resident assistant having those conferences and seminars about equality and diversity and all that stuff, I’m sorry I don’t really. Some people do need diversity training and nobody is above that (sigh) I don’t know I feel like it is a problem where in a country you have to teach people to like each other. Why don’t we just like each other? Are you telling me that if you first saw me and I had the stereotypically blond hair and blue eyes you would like me versus brown hair, brown eyes? I don’t understand. So, I don’t know I don’t like reading about race because you never find anything good about race. Like you always saw oh the culture but if you Google racism or race you always see articles about whathappened in 60s 70s 80s or before that and its really bad and I don’t really read books about racism. I’m sorry, this is very depressing. So the way I feel about my communication with different races with how I grew up and how I was raised I respect every person despite whichever age ethnicity or race they are. BURKE: Has this changed since you moved to western Michigan specifically? OMOH: No. But what has changed is um my tolerance level (laughter) BURKE: OK. OMOH: goodness. I’ve gone up and down in my tolerance level in dealing with people who are not as open-minded. I still don’t understand why people refer to as like oh west Michigan. Apparently west Michigan is like not as open-minded as east Michigan? I don’t know the difference; I grew up in Chicago so I just do the Michigan thing that people usually do. I do know that something simple as even going to Meijer and walking across the street I get looked at! Especially since I cut back up my hair. It’s not just like oh there’s people walking across the street I’m bored so I’ll look. No I get stares of death! Especially, from the older generation. And I still can’t get used to it I’ve had professors, you can always tell how professors are going to react to you based on their age. And the ones that are mostly in their 40s or 50s are like oh yea equal opportunity and like yea all equal opportunity! And once you start getting into the57, 58 and 60s you start seeing, cuz if they’re like 60 or 70 they were probably around during the civil rights movement and all that and those kind of ideals don’t just leave. And I’ve actually had to report one professor! BURKE: Really? OMOH: Yea and he got investigated and found out that it wasn’t just me that he was being racist to. Because I had a lot of professor and teachers in high school that I know didn’t like me and treated me Page 12 �differently because of my race but that’s just character building. And I always felt like if I reported it. nobody would do anything about it. But this one like I just couldn’t let go. Its one thing if you humiliate me in private and down my intelligence but if you do it in front of a class of 70, 80 people, like biology and science classes are huge! And it’s like only three black people in there and you pick on them and make us look like fools and feel insignificant. I knew I had to say something when my friend she was also in that class, she was black and the black people always sat in the front cuz we try and give the professor no reason that we’re not smart by sitting in the back. We’d sit in the front and she came to me almost in tears because she couldn’t look her professor in the eye. It was the same professor that I had. Every time that he would look at her she would turn her face away because he made her that scared. All three of us were scared to say anything to anybody because we didn’t want our grades to suffer. BURKE: Mhm OMOH: So... Gosh I think I might cry... I’m going to relax; it’s okay, sorry. Alright BURKE: I finally worked up the nerve to go and report how we were being treated and nothing came of it. BURKE: Nothing? OMOH: Nothing. He was investigated, they found out and said that he has some social disability because he is always doing research and he hasn’t come in contact with minority students and that so he doesn’t know how to deal with that. So basically what you’re telling me is schools like Grand Valley promote racism as long as you’re over sixty years old. And what really got me so jaded and upset was the fact that the supervisor told me that she cannot guarantee my safety. BURKE: Wow OMOH: I don’t have words, almost she said she couldn’t guarantee if I could be safe if I made it public, cause they were investigating underneath the radar. And if I actually put my name on paper, she couldn’t guarantee my safety, and she couldn’t guarantee that my grades would not suffer. She told me that it would be in my best interest to wait until I graduate, wait until I left the class to make a formal complaint. BURKE: Wow OMOH: This is at Grand Valley in this day in age. So I went home crying and I was just so upset, and finally after the class, I went back and said okay I’m ready, I’d like to make a complaint. Ohhhhhhhhh we can’t make a complaint they gave me some silly run around about how he had some social disability and they investigated and blah blah blah and it was ok. Found out from other sources that because I had said something, other students started to say things, other black students. Still wouldn’t say anything. I had other students in my class that I didn’t know, white students, who would raise their hand and ask a question, and he will answer. And then I would ask a question and he would say, “I’m not answering that right now”. And I had another student, we weren’t really close but she knew me, I asked a question and he said he wouldn’t answer and would have nothing to do with this, and I tell you I’m not lying, said the same exact question flow verbatim and he answered it and she was so upset that he answered, that in Page 13 �front ofthe whole class called him out. And said, “When Esi asked you this question youwouldn’t answer it, why would you answer it for me right now? And what he said? “I don’t want to talk about that right now.” And turned around and went back to theboard. She was so upset; she went and reported to the same person that you report to, the advisor. And it wasn’t until she and some other students from like my lab class, I also had him for lab. BURKE: Mhrn OMOH: Revolted, and were like “we aren’t going to stand for this!” and it kind of warmed my heart because I didn’t know half of these people and made a formal complaint that they finally said they were going to do something about it, this was like a semester later and I was like no, no, I don’t want to do anything about it. This is the reason why, I don’t know if you heard anything about this, but a lot of black people don’t have any faith in the police, they feel like if something goes wrong and they report it, they are either not going to do anything about it or believe them, and nothing is going to come of it. Like if you call the police in a black neighborhood no one is going to come versus, an hour later, versus if they call in a rich neighborhood they will be there in like five minutes. So they just reinforced the whole idea that me and my other friends in the class that were black were like well you should of known better, they wouldn’t have done anything and it took people from another race to say something for you to come back and say okay now we will pursue it, and I was like no, out of your own words you could not guarantee my safety. So, my experiences in America as far as race, coming to west Michigan, have been different. There has always been racism everywhere, , but there’s never, I’ve never dealt with it as much as I came here. Living here. More ignorance than racism though, I’ll say that. But me being an R.A. actually put me in that position where I could serve as a resource to teach people. I know a lot of programs, a lot of students didn’t want to come because they’re like oh its race, all they are going to talk about is white and black racism, but I’m like no, I’m just trying to let how to recognize the signs of racism. Like if you see a peer being picked on by a professor from another race, that doesn’t mean you have to think “Oh racism”, but you have to be aware to see the signs, like if that person is constantly being put down by that professor of another race, you need to be able to see that and a lot of students I find out that they never saw it like that. In Michigan, especially west Michigan people, that live in Holland or Hudsonville, those are the people that I struggle more with because they’re just like I cannot know that, why can’t I just say that the professor doesn’t like the student? BURKE: Mhm OMOH: Just teaching them that and my tolerance is high for ignorance. BURKE: Were there any other times that you confronted any discrimination? OMOH: Yeah.... Ha-ha, yeah .... Ha-ha I’ve confronted a lot. The most stressful ones were when I was an R.A. between residents. The N-word, I’ve never liked it, I’ve never said it, and I don’t know why people say it to each other. But the N-word being tossed around a lot, the derogatory remarks based on race, not just race too, sexual preference and all of that. But the one that happened to me that really hurt the most was my junior year of college and it was back then when Obarna was running for president, and , it was like when the decision finally came out that he was going to win the election, it was a whole bunch Page 14 �of people at Kleiner, like , watching on big screens on the T.V. and you could just see right when they said it, the black people were like EEEEEEEEE and then I’m not going to say all the white people but they were like in race caps, like the blacks were over here and the whites were over there and I’m telling it was no joke, I don’t even know why you had to be black against white but it was like that here at Grand Valley, and you could just see their faces, it was just like “oh wow...” the racial slurs started to be thrown around, I think they closed Kleiner early that night, because people were just crazy and people were sitting there saying that they were going to move to Canada, which I don’t know why they were saying they were going to move to Canada, I don’t understand the significance of that, something about they don’t have a black president, I don’t what they were saying, but I walking and how far Pickard is from Kleiner, and I’m walking back and three girls from Kistler opened up their window and just started throwing racial slurs at me, as I was walking, and it was kind of dark, and how those lamps illuminate you. So they were like “her you black girl blah blah blah, n-word, f-you, blah blah blah, Obama should’ve never won, I’m gonna come get you, blah blah blah”. I was like, I was so upset because for like 5 seconds I forget I was an R.A. and my instinct was to go up to that room and beat the mess out of every last one of those females. But the voice of reason came in and I went to my other co-worker and this was before your time, she was a multicultural assistant to my resident assistant, she was like the race issue person, and talked to her about it. And then they called Dewyon, and he was upset and was like “I’m really sorry that you had to go through all that.” He knew that as an R.A. I couldn’t respond the way I should’ve responded so they had this big investigation and they tried to find the people, and they never could. how those windows are, and you could never place a room to a window, and it was dark, oh am I going too much? BURKE: Nope OMOH: Okay, so they never placed a room so they could never find the people but I just felt targeted and singled out, and just because Obama was president. I never have voted in my life, and one of the reasons that I have never voted is because, well there are two reasons. One is because I don’t really feel like I’m an American, I don’t feel like I should have a say in what goes on even though I am a citizen and applied for that citizenship, I wasn’t born here and I don’t feel like I’m invested here. I feel that I am invested in my community but I don’t feel like I should have a say in the American Government. And secondly, I don’t vote for people that I don’t know anything about. I feel like I should be able to do research, and if I like your views then I will vote. But I’m not just going to vote because you’re a democrat or you’re a republican, or you like schools or you want to give woman health care, I want to be able to do research and I don’t know how to do research and either way I’m always like I like what you’re saying, I like what you’re saying, I like what you’re saying, but I can’t just pick. I don’t like what you’re saying sometimes, or I don’t like what you’re saying sometimes, it just never makes a difference so I don’t vote. And me being targeted, I didn’t even vote for the man! I felt like I was targeted because apparently every black person voted for Obama, so the people were against Obama, or targeting, the whole week there were targets on peoples white boards, people getting into fights, I think there was like a gun incident too. BURKE: Wow Page 15 �OMOH: A lot of stuff happens at Grand Valley but they are very hush-hush. I think they surrounded a black guy and it was like three white people confronted the black guy and told him, something that had to do with the election and were calling him the n-word, and said they were going to letch him. BURKE: This was at Grand Valley? OMOH: Grand Valley girl. BURKE: Wow OMOH: So, haha I try to put it in the back of my mind so I don’t think about it but you’re questions are very deep haha. BURKE: haha I’m sorry! OMOH: It’s okay, it’s okay! I think we should go to the next question! BURKE: Will you describe any personal hero’s that have had an influence on your life? OMOH: Heros 9 hhh... I don’t think I have any hero’s. I think I have people that I greatly admire. BURKE: Okay OMOH: And um, I admire, can I say names? BURKE: Yeah! OMOH: Okay, Dewyon White? The purposes living center director of Grand Valley housing, I admire him a lot because I was I became an RA my junior year, my freshman and sophomore year I was very angry, not as angry as I was in high school, but I was a very angry woman about all the same things, especially about racial stuff happening, I was very angry about how things were turning out to be in this world, and he took me and groomed me basically he was one of the people that, also Tacara Lyn, she was his supervisor, they basically groomed me to the woman that I am today and being more tolerant and understanding of people. Yeah, pastor, couple of co-workers, family, they’ve all played an instrumental role but my hero, I don’t like that term just for the fact that hero can be sin ominous worship sometimes, I don’t really have a hero, because it’s like put this person on a pedestal and I don’t think it’s fair to put anyone on a pedestal because then when they can’t meet those standards their world comes crashing down and I always hear people who have hero’s and for example they say this man who has a wife, but then he cheats on her, now that affects you because you felt this man was on this pedestal and that backlashes and that’s just a way I protect myself. I have a lot of people I admire who play an instrumental role in my life but I don’t have any hero’s. Sorry! BURKE: No that’s fine! Were you involved in any civil rights organizations or anything like that while at Grand Valley? OMOH: No, the most ethnic thing I ever did was got involved in the ethnic council, quite honestly the last thing you could say but I really don’t like black history month for the simple fact that, well I wouldn’t Page 16 �mind celebrating black history every month it’s just to have that one month, February, like I told you I don’t really like learning about what the slaves went through, I’m just a very emotional person and when I hear about all of that, it’s just like wow! In this country, are you serious? And then the same thing is happening in my country and it’s not more of a slavery thing but it’s more of genocide, up north in Nigeria the Muslims are killing Christians because they see Christians as not worthy. I’m not saying all Muslims but the terrorist groups, they always say Muslims but terrorist are only like 1%, and you never hear about the God loving Muslims, you only hear about the terrorist. Actually, in one of the villages that my mom grew up in, they actually went there and killed everyone in the village, it wasn’t just shootings, they took a machete and chopped people up. Babies, headless babies. So I don’t like black history month because when it’s on TV. They always want to show something about hangings and I understand that you need to recognize that but I try to stay away from civil rights because that whole inequality stuff is too emotional for me to deal with. I support it from the outskirts like the civil rights walk but as far as actively involved I stay away from it. BURKE: Okay, can you describe the involvement in your church and how that has had an influence on your life? OMOH: I grew up Roman Catholic but a couple of years ago I started going to this church named Grace of the Nation’s Church and it’s a Cogic church which means “Church of God in Christ,” I’ve worked there in an organization where they help international students and international members, because it’s an international church. We have people from Jamaica, people from Nigeria, , people from South America, Mexico and even Korea. So we have a ministry that deals with international people and also we have different ministries where we raise money and donations for a little ministry that we have in Benisala, in Haiti, and in Iraq and in South Africa. We actually have one of our South African pastors that we support coming up to grace, so me being directly involved in that kind of keeps me grounded in trying to get back into my roots of helping international students and everything, and I also do hospitality which I really like because I am in front of the house greater so I’m the first person they see before they enter to the church, which is kind of cool because you can always the newcomers they are kind of nervous and I’m like “Hi welcome to Grace!” and then they totally get into the grooves of things and get welcomed. So me having involvement in my church gives me another avenue to get involved within my community and also it will keep me grounded with people who are international and who might have went through the same things I did and try to let them know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and that not all Americans have you haha. And I’m like , don’t listen to everybody. When I first came here I had a lot of black people say, “don’t trust white people!” “They’ve got it in for you” “They are all racist!” so I’m letting them know to make their own decisions about people. BURKE: Have you ever experienced any discrimination towards your religion? OMOH: Yeah, it’s kind of sad though because I understand why, I have a lot of friends that do a lot of things and the one that I clash the most with is my gay or lesbian friends nine times out often I’d say all of them totally dislike Christians, most of them have had really bad experiences with Christians and I feel like because of that there is going to be a part of intimacy within my friends that I can never reach because they have this preconceived notions about Christianity. And I don’t blame them, not at all because I’ve also had Christian friends who are very unchristian who don’t accept people for who they Page 17 �are, so I’ve had a lot of friends, for example, like I said I am very active in my church and I like to invite people to come to my church, and when your friends are not church goers, they don’t really want to go and always say some kind of religious slurs, like “that’s too Christianity for me”, and it hurts. They might feel that they have problems in their gay or lesbian relationship and feel like they can’t talk to me about it because of my Christianity. But as far as people who hate me because I’m a Christian, no I haven’t had that happen. But once they find out they are bias towards me. Yeah, I have a lot of Muslim friends too, my closest friend, she is Saudi Arabian; I have a lot of friends that are different. Some of them might think that their religion is superior to mine. I just let them keep thinking that, whatever floats your boat because I’m secure in my religion. But as far as discrimination as in I don’t want to talk to you or be around you because you’re a Christian, no I haven’t had to deal with that. BURKE: How was it different going to high school in Chicago versus your school in Nigeria? OMOH: First of all, a lot more of racial diversity in America than in Nigeria. School here is a lot easier, which is good for me. We start school at a very early age and its education, education, education, I don’t ever remember relaxing. But it wasn’t bad and I didn’t complain because it was what everyone did, they went to school at 7:30am and it was over at 4:30pm and had tutoring, which was basically another school from 5:00pm to 8:30pm and then do homework and chores and start it all over again. I don’t think I ever relaxed and I didn’t have weekends, it’s been a long time, but I didn’t have to go to school on Saturdays but I had home school on that day, and Sundays I went to church, eat and then study because I had homework from regular day school and from tutoring also. But everyone else did it, so it wasn’t like I was the only one so I never complained. It was a social norm. The difference here is that I learn about different cultures such as European history, American history, but in Nigeria our history was focused on Britain, because we were colonized by the British, so we learn more about that. Difference that I don’t like here that I liked there is the option of learning of learning my own language, I feel that I would be a lot more fluent in it, so that’s another thing that I need to work on. Not being able to practice your language doesn’t necessary mean you’re going to lose it but you start thinking in a language, such as English. For example my parents used to ask me questions in my own language, but I would respond in English. I was never really 100% fluent, but I was speaking the equivalent of Spanglish, half Spanish half English, but now I can’t even do that! I just respond back in English. I wish they had more variety, instead of options for European but African. I’m happy they have Japanese, which isn’t very common, Chinese is more common than Japanese, but just a variety of languages is something that I miss. BURKE: Based on the different schooling systems that you have been a part of, can you describe any differences in the structure of learning? Such as critical thinking skills? OMOH: In Nigeria we push math and science. BURKE: Why is that? OMOH: Both of my parents were educators, and their theory on this, which I believe, is that they pushed math and science because we are a developing country. So we push and start school early, you graduate high school when you are 16, and you go on to college where you learn math and science, stereotypical Page 18 �but most Africans are either doctors or engineers, something math or science related. You go and get these good degrees and then give back to the community. So the high school college generation is the future of the country, what they specialize in will be what our country will develop in. The reason why the United States developed is because they have all this technology and resources, well it took someone to go into a higher level in college for them to invent all of these things. So we hope that one day, when we give back to our community that most of these people who went to other countries to get their degree in other things will one day rule our country, but they never end up coming back. If they came back with all of their education, and with enough people doing that, we would eventually rise as a nation. But people never do, so the solution is to focus more on math and science so one day we will do something very successful. BURKE: So how is that compared to finishing school here? OMOH: here is total opposite. In American they focus more on English literature, how you speak, more of life skills then technical skills. You always know your hard math and science, but they always stress and say oh if this math and science is not for you, then that’s okay! You can be a professor in psychology or English or something like that. In Nigeria you don’t have an option. Especially from your parents, you have to do well and success is only measured on whether or not you do something in the math or science field. I’m sure there are very success English professors, but for Nigeria success is only if you become a doctor or engineer or business. You don’t really hear people who are happy that have other careers, even if they are giving back to the community, they only want people who are successful. So there’s a lot more stress on you getting good grades in Nigeria than there is here. If you’re not getting good grades, than you’re not making the best of what you’re given. If you are a C average student, you better be the best C average student that you are. In Nigeria, if you get a B or B+, that’s just as bad as an F. I’m so serious. I went to sleep so many times crying, I remember I had my first B that I got in college, cried for days. My mom and dad yelled at me, you could have sworn that I got an F on my report card or something. They said “are those other people better than you? Why can’t you get an A?” I was crying because it’s not bad getting a B on your transcript, but when your parents see that B, they are going to be very upset with you. So I like America better, it’s a lot more stress free. BURKE: So we know that you went to Grand Valley for school, but is there anything else you would like to talk about within your experience? Such as the environment, we talked about student organizations already, but are there any other networks that you did? OMOH: Give me an example BURKE: Was the student body interested in civil rights, or did you ever network or attend meetings with students who share your identity from other colleges? OMOH: From other colleges no I’ve never really met with other Universities, but the African student council; we do a lot of events and people from Michigan State University or Western University, people from other major universities. But as far as building relationships with people that identif with the way that I do from other universities, not so much. I could barely even do that here! Like I told you, African student council. It is a very good part of my life here at Grand Valley but I also felt that I was very limited Page 19 �there. It was nice to have a group of people; we had whites, Africans, Hispanics and even Korean! But identity is such a fragile thing and I thought I finally got over it, airight I’m me, I’m part of the African student council so that’s like got to be African, and then having to work through stereotypes within your own people is so rough. So I think that inhibited me from seeking deeper relationships. And then, I was really upset because I was going to get more familiar with the African refugee center, this year since I no longer have school and I could really dedicate working with individuals who first come under a refugee status and I found out a couple weeks ago that they had to close down because there wasn’t enough interest. As far as I know that was the only one in West Michigan. Hopefully one of these days I will have enough guts to start one in Grand Rapids, but I don’t plan on staying in Grand Rapids, I don’t know. BURKE: Where do you plan on going? OMOH: Somewhere down south, I like to travel. Obviously I came to America, and then I came to Michigan by myself, I want to go down south, I’ve never really experienced anywhere in down south before. I’ve been to the east coast; I haven’t been to the west coast. I think I’m more southern than I am western. I don’t think I have the personality to move to California, I want to find a nice little town down south with just the right amount of people. Not too big, not too small. Happy people. I heard there are a lot of happy people down south and I’m very big on hospitality. I know it’s kind of a silly reason to move but I like people that smile, ? I’m the kind of person that gets my energy from happy people, if you’re sad I’m sad and if you’re angry, I’m angry. I don’t become physically angry but I become tense. And I’m young and I want to work with refugees. I’m also going into the peace core. I was supposed to be going to Kenya for 27 months for the peace core in October, but they did the budget cuts and postponed it until March. And then I found out that they picked 7 people out of thousands and I was one of the people that they picked, but now they don’t have money for 7 people, only 3 or 4. So now I’m back to square one, trying to re-interview since I made the cut the first time. But I might not be doing it anymore because it takes a lot of emotional investment and they already took it away from me once, I was really depressed and don’t want to go through that again. My dream is to go back and open up a dentist for single mothers, less fortunate people that cannot afford health care. So within the peace core I was going to teach math and science in Kenya, and having that under my belt would give me essential life building skills to move on. But the government is jerking my chain so I think I will just go work in a refugee center, it’s the next best thing. BURKE: What made you decide to come to Michigan by yourself? OMOH: I think I’ve also told you this before, but it was the grass! BURKE: The grass? OMOH: ha-ha yes the grass! I played soccer in high school, and I mean I was good but I wasn’t that good so I was surprised when I got full scholarships to schools. I had a full ride soccer scholarship, and then two academic based scholarships. So I went to the schools and said okay I don’t have to pay for anything, but on the other hand I didn’t want to be stuck playing soccer for my whole college experience, and I was going into sciences and it would have been really hard to juggle all of them, and it was a private school. So then it was Grand Valley State University, University of Toledo, University of Page 20 �Illinois, I went to Champaign and it was too big for me, and Toledo was in the hood, it was good but it was surrounded by hood areas. And I grew up in the hood in Chicago and I’m trying to leave all of that. I want to go to an academic community! I had a vision and I came in the summertime, where it was so pretty with the grass. I guess the grass in Michigan is different from the grass in Illinois. Our grass doesn’t green like this, this is like good earth. My parents were just blown away by the grass, the trees and the flowers. I would rather come here with a class of only 30 people and I need to be able to have a teacher that knows my name, that when I go to their office hours, you recognize me and I’m not just another face. That was one of the reasons; the biggest one is still the grass though. BURKE: So what were your expectations for your education, did your parents have an influence? OMOH: My parents influenced me a lot on my decision, I always knew I wanted to do something in science, but my father wanted me to be a lawyer and my mother wanted me to be a medical doctor. It wasn’t until my sophomore year when I said I’m not being a doctor or a lawyer! I am going to be a dentist! That’s when I was getting my braces off and said I want to do something with the dentist now. Still to this day organic chemistry is my favorite chemistry in the whole wide world, you’re going to love it. I’ve always been interested in organic structures, but my senior year I realized that I get my energy from human interaction and even though I would be interacting with my patients, I want to be interacting with them on a personal level. So I still want to do something with my degree but I realized that dentist school isn’t for me. It’s not enough to just make people smile and happy, I’m not going to get enough interaction. iVy parents were very disappointed, my mom threatened to disown me. She is still upset with me for not going straight to dentist school; it was a big family argument. I’m not sure if it is like that in other African societies but I know that in Nigeria, from my experience, your parents set your role. They push you towards the math and sciences. I also lucked out that I liked it; if I didn’t like it then it would be a problem. BURKE: How did that vary within your siblings? Like with their college degrees? OMOH: No variation, but I will be the only science. My older sister has her masters in finance, my older brother is a computer engineer and my other sister is an industrial engineer and it’s me and my little brother who are going into business. I would be the variation within the social service job because obviously there’s no money in that, and if there’s no money than there’s no success. But I don’t see it like that. BURKE: Can you describe any historic events either in western Michigan or Nigeria that had an impact on you or your family, which you remember? OMOH: 9/11, I was in the 8 grade when it happened. It didn’t really impact me because I didn’t have any family there but it impacted me by the way the country as grieving, andhow to this day when 9/Il passes here and people are still recovering and crying. Like Isaid I don’t like stuff like that because I’m very motivated by my emotions, so seeing how the country all came together to get through that was very inspirational for me. Everyone was grieving, it didn’t matter what race, color or disability, everyone was grieving and it showed that even though we’re all different in some ways, it showed that as humans we Page 21 �support each other. I thought that was pretty cool. Actually one of my friends decided to be a firefighter because of that. BURKE: How has your perception of your identity changed as you grew older? OMOH: Like I said it’s changed, every couple of years I change how I identify myself. When I think of identity I think of race, I never think gender or sex, I always think race because that is such a big thing for me. My identity is always going to be from high school student, college student, grown adult, middle class to hopefully comfortable class. As far as status, single American. I never think that, I always think race. Right now I just consider myself black. If people ask me to tell them a little bit more, I say I actually have roots in Nigeria. But for now Ijust consider myself black. That might eventually change because I go through stages where I am like full on African! I wear all my African gear and tell the world. But right now I am just black. BURKE: So you think it will change? OMOH: Oh yeah most definitely. My identity changes with my maturity. When I first came to America I was like “I’m African, I need to separate and be an individual!” so I wore my Africanism quote on quote as a cloak for security to separate myself from people so I could be an individual. in high school, you don’t want to be the individual; you want to be the one with the coolest hair and a certain kind of style. So that was my token of individuality. In college I was Nigerian, not just African. Nigerian-American, I set myself as somebody who could be between African and African American. Now I just consider myself someone from an African descent, which is black. I can talk to Africans comfortably, I can talk to blackAmericans comfortably, I can talk to whites, and I can talk to anyone. I am just a woman from African descent. BURKE: Do you feel that members of your community have struggled from any civil rights in western Michigan? OMOH: Seeing as how I just moved to Grand Rapids, I don’t really know too many people in my community. Most of friends didn’t grow up in west Michigan; most of them grew up in Detroit or flint. So I don’t know, I can’t answer that question. BURKE: What issues do you feel still need civil rights advocacy? OMOH: Civil rights in reference to what? BURKE: Anything. OMOH: Gender discrimination, I am a little controversial in my definition of civil rights but I think everyone should be equal. Within race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference. I think that at the very basis of it that we are humans and the bible teaches us to love thy neighbor as thyself, so I feel that we need more work. I think there’s been a lot of work gone towards racial civil rights, and I know a lot of my friends think that it needs more work and I agree. But I think that sometimes civil rights only eclipses racial issues instead of conflicts with gender, sex, and sexual preference, to things like woman in Page 22 �different work fields. I’m always about equal opportunity. When I hear civil rights I think about race, I think that when people think of civil rights they shouldn’t only think of things that are racial related. BURKE: Is there anything else that you would like to add or comment on? OMOH: No not really, I think we summed it all up. I appreciate you interviewing me; it makes me feel that you value my opinion. BURKE: We do! Thank you very much. This concludes our interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca85e264db454a02aaa0faeb3a3be379.mp3 d4def79b0b0387a626b47f90ac928f50 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Omoh_Esiloza Title A name given to the resource Esiloza Omoh audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Omoh, Esiloza Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Burke, Briana Description An account of the resource Esiloza Omoh was born in Legos, Nigeria, raised in Chicago, Illinois, and attended Grand Valley State University. She graduated with a degree in Biomedical Science. She discusses her experiences with discrimination because of the color of her skin. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-09-30 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e9a07b39a329f3df5b77542164950cd.pdf eef6390183fd8d95441cb33ba8580f0e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Fabiola Jimenez Interviewers: Lucas Mosher, Kelsie Overhuel, Kyle Richard and Karly Stanislovaitis Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/14/2012 Biography and Description Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman who has been living in East Michigan since 1994. She discusses how she feels as though she was never discriminated against because of her race. Transcript MOSHER: This is Lucas Mosher, Kyle Richard, Kelsie Overhuel, and Karly Stanslovaitis. We are at Mackinac hall, on the grand valley state university Allendale campus, and it is February 24th at 4:30 pm. We are interviewing Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman from East Michigan. So, Tell us your story. Let’s start from when you moved from Colombia to Texas. JIMENEZ: Yes, I came to the United States in 1971, and I was 12 years old. My parents sent me here to live with my uncle and aunt, they stayed back home. And I went to school, to middle school, I started the 7th grade. I did not go to the special school where there was bilingual education, I went to the regular school in a separate school district, where there were no Hispanic children there, but there were cousins, that live in that neighborhood. And so when I went to that school, they were pretty much the few people who spoke Spanish were my cousins, but they were all obviously in other classes. I took special classes, I guess, with the counselor, who taught me words in English from flash cards, but I also attended regular classes with the other children in science, and math. Math was taught in a progressive mode, where you worked on worksheets, and you advanced at your own pace, it wasn’t like a classroom lead math class, unless there happened to be a group of kids working on the same subject. Through that method, I was able to advance quickly through algebra, so I moved on to take algebra in the 8th grade. By the time I went to the 9th grade, I was ready for geometry, and that didn’t seem to be an obstacle that I didn’t speak English that well. I feel that having to be immersed along with the other English speaking children, and not having a bilingual education helped me learn English very fast. And so I didn’t need special bilingual education classes to be able to catch up, or move a long with the other 8th graders and high school. So that’s how I finished high school in Texas. I got married in ’81, and we moved to Michigan in ’94. Lucas was a year old. And at that time, I was already a nurse, I had gone back to school and taken a nursing degree, a bachelors in nursing, and I worked in nursing all my life. And I feel that it has never been an obstacle to have been Hispanic. I have never felt discriminated upon by my employer because of my background. I have always obtained a job with my nursing credentials. Page 1 �RICHARD: When you had first moved to Texas, did you find it difficult to learn English at first, or did you catch on quickly? JIMENEZ: I feel that I caught on rather quickly. I had help, I would bring my homework home, and of course my uncle and aunt would help me with understanding what they wanted me to learn. The Spanish teacher at school would translate the homework for me, and so I went home with some idea of what I needed to do. I in particular remember my English teacher giving me almost special attention with flash cards, and film strips, which I’m sure you don’t know what those are, but they were special films that I could progress at my own pace that would show me words and pronunciations, and would tell me little stories to help me read. I feel that it was maybe special to me, because I was one of the few kids that did not speak English along with the other people. But when my uncle chose which middle school to send me to, he didn’t send me to the neighborhood school where I went, which was predominantly Hispanic, he wanted me to learn English right away, and so he sent me to the school where there were fewer Spanish speaking kids, so I feel that I quickly made friends that spoke English, and who helped me along. In particular, a funny story that I think that sticks in my mind is at the cafeteria. You know the little milk cartons? They showed me how to open the milk carton; because of course I did not know what “push up” meant. The combination where you open it like this (gestures) and you push it up, so they showed me, that’s how you open a milk carton. Well it only took once for me to learn the milk carton, but after that I knew what “push up” was. And so I had very kind people everywhere I’ve been, in the states. With all the different communities and people I have found them to be generous towards me, and they have taught me lots of things. I’ve never felt that they would withhold knowledge or information or acceptance. So I have to say that I don’t feel that I have been discriminated upon during my time here. MOSHER: At what point in Columbia did your family decide to send you to Texas? JIMENEZ: When you’re growing up in a 3rd world country, you don’t have the opportunity to go to school, mostly for financial reasons, because school is not free. Especially your elementary school, and your high school, and college is very expensive. In the states you are guaranteed that you’ll go through high school, and your parents don’t have to pay for your school, they pay from taxes, and yet you’re guaranteed that you’re going to be provided the education that you need, and if you’re smart enough, and dedicated enough, you’ll be able to go to college if your parents have the money, they’ll be able to pay for college for you, or you can get school loans and help from the government for whatever circumstances. My parents felt that I would have better opportunities here, to go to school, and advance further. My uncle and aunt lived here, and they did not have any children, so they asked if they would be allowed to bring me with them, and so they were my guardians, my uncle and aunt, and they lived in Texas. So I feel sometimes that maybe my parents; I used to think that they didn’t love me, or they abandoned me, or whatever, but you pretty quickly grow up from those thoughts when you realize of all the riches and wealth, that we live here in the United States, You know what I mean? There’s no war, there’s jobs, there’s healthcare, there’s the opportunity to work, to go to school, and you can say what you want and go do it. While in a 3rd world country, a developing country, you don’t have those opportunities, you don’t. If your parents have money, and you are smart, and you work hard, you might be able to maintain that level, but it doesn’t come easily for you independently to do it. You sometimes Page 2 �have to know somebody, to give you the favor of having a job. You got the job because you know that person. Or they are your friends. There’s a lot of… It’s who you know that gives you the job. Not because you got it because you saw an offering in the newspaper, and you applied, and they go for the best candidate. It doesn’t happen that way. And to get into school, is tough competition, because there are limited resources. Here, if you didn’t get into a 4 year college, well you can go to a 2 year college, and maybe bring up your grades so that next year you can go to a 4 year college. And you can go to college all your life. Here I am, as old as I am, and I was able to go back to school, and right now I’m in school to get my masters. In south America, if you don’t go to school when you’re young, weather you had the skills, the knowledge, and the money, to pay for school, in your later years, you probably won’t have the opportunity to go back to school. If you don’t have that opportunity when you are young, and take advantage of it, it’s probably gone for you, the opportunity to go back to school. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that you had to pay for school, unlike you do here, before you go to college, so are you aware of how much that was? Or how much it would have been? JIMENEZ: Well it depends, because there are private schools, like kids that go to private schools here in the states, and they are very expensive. And there are also other schools, like the Montessori schools have a different fee, and pretty much it’s what your parents are willing to pay. There are public schools, but there’s a lot of kids in those schools that they probably don’t have the best resources to provide the best education. So if you can go to a catholic school, where the nuns will teach you, you’re probably considered very well educated, by having been given the best opportunity to succeed. MOSHER: What point growing up did your opinion of your parents sending you to America change from resentment to sadness, to like, “oh, thanks for sending me.”? JIMENEZ: When I went back home after high school, I went for a couple of years, and I realized that what I had learned in the states was applicable in south America, but it wasn’t what I wanted, because for a woman in a 3rd world country, when she becomes of marriage age, it is expected of her to marry and have kids. And I didn’t think I was ready. To me, I still had school to go to. Because I wanted to go to college, and I probably couldn’t have gone to college down there. So at the time I realized what they really wanted for me was to have a better lifestyle, more opportunity that other people don’t have. STANISLOVAITIS: Did they ever talk to you about that, or was it just something that you came to realize on your own? JIMENEZ: A little bit of both. We talked about it, especially after you grow up and you realize that your sisters’ lives are not that much better, and that they probably would have been better, or different if they had had the opportunities that we as women have here. That other girls don’t have in a 3rd world country. We can make the decision not just of career, but weather we want to marry or not, weather we want to have children or not. In other countries, you are told what you’re going to be doing. (Laughs) Over here, we don’t, we can do many things, when we want. We can decide even who to marry, we don’t have to wait for our parents to make the match, or for a man to come asking, we go look for one. It is just different culturally, and expectations for women are different. STANISLOVAITIS: How many sisters do you have? Page 3 �JIMENEZ: I have lots of sisters, one of them had 3 kids, and another younger sister than me has 2 children. But they have also travelled abroad, for better opportunities. I have a sister that lives in London, and of course she left Colombia, because of jobs, the economic situation is better for jobs and financially. We don’t have that many resources that everybody can be guaranteed a job. RICHARD: So when you finally decided that you were going to move to Michigan, what played into your decision to move from Texas to a place like Michigan? JIMENEZ: That was marriage. School, for my husband, dictated that we would move to Michigan, for job reasons. At that time I already had my nursing degree, and it was very easy for me to get a job almost through Internet and the mail, through a travelling nurse agency. I came to William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, as a travelling nurse, until we settled in Michigan, and figured out where we wanted to look for a house. When we settled in Milford, Michigan, then it was easier for me to see what hospitals were in the area, and I have worked in the area ever since we moved here. And it’s going to be 19 years, 18 years for sure. So it wasn’t like my decision, it was just like a family situational thing, that it was time to move for job reasons, and so we did. MOSHER: Would Michigan have been your first choice if you had just and option to go anywhere? JIMENEZ: Um, you know up to the time we moved to Michigan we had the luxury, I guess, to travel throughout the United States with being, you know, we’ve been in many states and every states has special situations that I don’t think I would have been unhappy practically anywhere. You know what I mean? I think that I would have found contentment, or satisfaction wherever I lived as long as it was in the United States. You know what I mean? It just doesn’t matter, I mean the highway system makes sense, we speak a common language, you know? We expect certain things so I don’t think I would have preferred living in California or Florida or move back to Texas. Now I do have to admit that it took me a while to accept living in Michigan. Right. Because you have a certain vision of things that you want your life to be and it didn’t seem that at the beginning that it was going the way I wanted, I expected it. Ok? Because we all have expectations. But after a while you realize it’s not bad at all. We have a job, we have a house, we’re healthy. Lucas is going to school. You know and that kind of thing. You kinda settle into the acceptance mode. That this is okay and now the weather doesn’t bother me. It was like yay snow! It was time to get some snow. So it will be gone here, it’s gone actually and the tulips are going to bloom soon so…I like it, I appreciate it now. I appreciate the fall and the summer, the apples and the cherries. All those things I appreciate them more now. But it takes time for me to I guess mature and settle down in the environment that you live. MOSHER: So I guess it’s safe to say that you wouldn’t choose to live in any area other than the United States? JIMENEZ: Oh absolutely, Yeah, cause we’ve lived, I have had the opportunity to live in a third world country and when we were younger we had the opportunity to travel to Europe and live in Europe for nine months and it was not a good experience. There I felt discriminated. MOSHER: Can you describe some of those instances of discrimination? Page 4 �JIMENEZ: Overseas? Yes. Um, we lived in Belgium and they are a French speaking country and we lived in the French speaking area of Belgium and we would go to the bakery and I would want a loaf of bread and of course my French is not very good and I couldn’t make myself understood so I would notice they would serve the customer who had walked in the door behind me first before they would attend to me. So I assumed it was loyalty to the customer, that’s a regular well we had just gotten there. But no it seemed to be a persistent pattern that I had to wait for the girl in the back to come and help me. Not necessarily in English either. While here I feel that, in America if you go to the Japanese store or the Korean store you can walk in and pick whatever you want. You got money and you are going to spend it in my store so yay come in. Exactly? No they are not going to discriminate against you; you’re coming to give the business so I felt somewhat discriminated. MOSHER: Do you feel that that was in part to your Columbian upbringing or your language barriers? JIMENEZ: I think it was in part language barrier and a little bit signaphobia. MOSHER: So they just didn’t like outsiders? JIMENEZ: They just didn’t like outsiders because I think they felt that there were quite an influx of foreign students into the community that we were living in. STANISLOVAITIS: Do you in general people there were maybe more hostile or maybe not as accepting as people in America? JIMENEZ: Yes, Yes I feel that they were not accepting and I feel that they were annoyed that we were butchering their French roots and not speaking properly. MOSHER: This is kinda funny because earlier in class we watched a video called “Black Boy” and it’s about Richard Wright, the author and in that video he was talking about how he moved to France and actually really liked it because he didn’t feel discriminated against there. So it was kinda funny hearing you saying that you felt discriminated there and he saying he actually enjoying it more. JIMENEZ: I don’t know people have different experiences and different perceptions. I know personally that I wouldn’t want to live in Europe. For sure, I don’t want to live in Europe. I like my car, I like my mobility, I’m comfortable anywhere but, so I don’t know. We all have different perceptions so I would not move overseas. I don’t even want to travel overseas. I’ve been there so I don’t want to go. I mean I don’t want to discourage you from going. I mean Paris is beautiful, London is beautiful and it’s definitely an experience to behold, to be involved in it but I wouldn’t want to go. Brush that old city in Belgium is beautiful and I appreciate their history but I don’t want to live there. STANISLOVAITIS: Did you say that you valued having the experience knowing that that wasn’t what you wanted and did it make you appreciate being an American even more? JIMENEZ: Absolutely, absolutely because I can see what influences have made America what it is now. So yes, I appreciate it very much. I like it here. I love it here. I don’t want to go anywhere. So but no you as young people I encourage you to travel and see the world and experience it and formulate your own Page 5 �opinion; don’t let anybody discourage you from going to Mexico. Mexico is beautiful. Columbia is beautiful. They have their things to offer, experiences to offer. STANISLOVAITIS: I feel like in America we are a little bit spoiled and we think that everyone has what we have, but they don’t. JIMENEZ: Yeah, they don’t have it and sometimes I feel that young people are like ingrates. They are not thankful for the things that they have and they don’t appreciate it. So yeah do go, go and see how the rest of the world lives and you’ll soon realize that you are very unique in your own self. Just because you are in America because it makes you who you are and you are very unique and they’re the ones that are “weird”. I didn’t say that. No but do travel if you get the opportunity to go on an exchange program or go for the summer somewhere. Do go, absolutely. Don’t be afraid of it. RICHARD: Earlier you had mentioned that you were a nurse; do you think you can tell us a little bit about your nursing career and how you got into nursing? JIMENEZ: Absolutely, it’s a great question. The thought of nursing was put into me by a teacher I met in High School. She taught a class called Health Education and because I was a foreign student, Health Occupations Education it was the class, and because I was a foreign student I was not able to work and have a job and get paid cause I did not have a Social Security number. A little card with social security number, I had a student visa. So my job was to be her assistant. She gave me the job to be her assistant and I could take both classes, the first period and the second period and for work I would be her assistant. Because the kids were able to work in doctors’ offices, dentals, at the hospital, clinic that kind of thing but I couldn’t cause I didn’t have the proper documentation I guess for work permit. So she guided me and told me that I should consider being a nurse and influenced me a lot in making that my career so I always knew that that’s what I wanted to do or that’s what I should do. And to tell you the truth I never imagined myself not being a nurse either, from her influences, and so that’s what I’m did. I was not able to go to school right away after finishing high school but once I was able to return to the United States I started taking classes at the community college, one class at a time, two classes at a time because I had to work and pay for school at the same time. My parents did not have the financial resources to say yeah go to Grand Valley, live in the dorm and we’ll pay your tuition. It wasn’t that way, I had to pay for myself. And so I could only work a little bit and take a class here and there. Once I got married it afforded me a little bit of financial freedom because of my husband’s job and income and I was able then to pay for school and go full time and so I got my bachelors in science and nursing and I worked as a critical care nurse for eighteen years. And I am now going back to school to get my masters and I hope to get my nurse practitioner’s degree with an education certificate by 2014, so I hope to be done soon. As in soon, in two years’ time goes by fast. So I hope that I’ll be able to accomplish that. But yeah, I was influenced by a lady that I call mother, I call her mother. Her name was Evelyn and she influenced me to go stay in a health career path. So I’ve been a nurse all this time. Never a day unemployed for sure. I always had a job. MOSHER: Before you met her what were your ideas of what to do in life? Page 6 �JIMENEZ: What to do? I probably didn’t have any ideas. Just winging it. Yeah, I was probably was just winging it. You go to school and you study and what not but I had taken a Child Development class and through that class we had to have practicum hours and I went to an elementary school, a kindergarten and pre-kinder and I was the teacher assistant with the kids and that seemed like fun so I thought maybe I want to be a teacher but because this health occupations Education was also an elective class that you could sign up for during High School. I did that and in that would discuss what a dentist does, what a doctor does, nurses, pathology, lab tech and all the different careers in the health care and so I knew that one of those would be fine for me. That I would like it, I enjoyed the Anatomy Physiology component of the class. Talking about diseases and stuff like that so I think I would’ve chosen something in medicine but nursing seemed acceptable. So that’s what I’ve done all this time. MOSHER: Earlier off the record we talked about some people not understanding your accent over the phone… JIMENEZ: Mhm, I have to do some phone interviews for the patients are coming for procedures and stuff and give them instructions prior to their procedures and at times I have to speak to people and it hasn’t been often and occasionally I’ll bump into someone who is less patient and maybe my accent comes a lot stronger or louder over the phone and they say I have a hard time understanding you. I think it’s your accent or something and I say well I’ll have someone else call you, no problem there. It’s kinda like did you not understand me or were you just not willing to talk to me? But what can you do? STANISLOVAITIS: I know if you would’ve you decided you still wanted to live in Columbia and still wanted to do in nursing do you feel that since you would’ve not really had that opportunity to get the education that the quality of care that you would’ve given would be lower? JIMENEZ: Since I was in South America when I was little I did not even consider even studying nursing. But I did do, I took a certificate as a bilingual secretary and I started working as a bilingual secretary because I had learned English in high school so that gave me a leg up instead into perhaps a business degree or a business career in secretarial at work or maybe a hotel, tourism or something I probably would’ve done that because of my bilingual ability. So I wouldn’t have considered nursing but if I had considered nursing the quality would be according to their resources. And I know that many people in South America they do have access to medication but they are not free. Is that like when you go to the public health department? Have you ever been to the public health department? In South America you have to pay for your…for everything, when you come to the hospital here women give you a bucket with tooth brush tooth paste soap a towel…right, a bucket to puck in if you need to…right. When you go to the hospital in South America you better bring those things with you or have someone bring them for you including the sheets. And if preferably bring someone to stay with you to help you with your stay in the hospital because there are few health care people who are skilled to take care of patents there’s fewer medications right. And there is fewer resources. So it’s not as available as it is here. So I don’t think that if I had stayed in South America in Columbia that I would be a nurse right now. More than likely not. And probably…I would have had more than one child. (Laughs) I would probably have twenty of them. (Laughs) I don’t know what the deal is but it would have been my choice definitely it be only Page 7 �what I wanted. You know what I mean? My life would have been a little bit different. In a more male dominated environment. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that your sisters, they still live in Columbia so like do you feel like they because of all of the opportunities that you have gotten in America. Do you feel like they have any desire to have the same opportunities? JIMENEZ: Mhmm well yeah I am sure they have. I mean they’re not lacking. I mean they have a nice house, a nice home they have families and everything. But like what I was telling you we all settle in to what our fortune is and you accept it. You know what I mean? So I think they have been content, you know my oldest sister you know she has her husband, her kids, they’re in their thirties their grown. You know, she’s a grandma. You know I am sure she loves her grand children and stuff. You just kind of settle in to you lifestyle, and make the best of it. You know? And make the best opportunity that you have, she had a good job and her husband had a good job and it provided for their families. You know? They took advantage of the opportunity that was offered to them at the time, but I don’t think that they had the same choices I had. *Pause* JIMENEZ: So I encourage you to travel overseas or even in the United States. I encourage you to stay in school and if your parents are paying for it take all that you can. (Laughs) And take advantage of it because once you start paying for it yourself it is hard, it is hard to part with that money that you are paying for by yourself. And it is difficult to work and go to school at the same time, it’s hard I mean I am sure you have friends who work and go to school at the same time or who would like to be at Grand Valley but they have to go to the community college because they can’t afford it or didn’t get student loans. Or if they got the student loans [they are] already in debt to pay for the student loans. You know what I mean? If you have a scholarship definitely take advantage of it. Stay in School. You know prepare yourself because knowledge is something that nobody and take away from you. I mean that goes where you where ever you go, it will follow you. You know? And you never know when you are going to us it; you never know when it will become valuable for you. So…the opportunity presented itself for me to go back to school right now so I want to go I want to do it so I always wanted to get my masters. I am working on my masters right now. Very busy. The house isn’t clean, the kitchen isn’t washed the dishes aren’t washed, but Lucas is not home so it can stay that way. You know so I like it though I’m happy…I’m happy to be going to school now. It will be over April 15th so…just keep my calendar of how many more days. I know you do too right? (Laughs) You know, so stay in school and travel if you can now that your young, and you can see the world. RICHARD: Could you tell us a bit about because you said you graduated high school and you went back to Columbia JIMENEZ: I went back to Columbia for two…two years maybe RICHARD: Could you tell us what it was like when you finally came back to the United States? Page 8 �JIMENEZ: Oh, it was wonderful. When I came back to the United States I lived with my brother who was also living in Texas and after a couple of months I didn’t like living in his house because I needed to go to school and what not so I called the teacher I told you about and told her I needed a place to stay and she allowed me in her house. She was single, no children elderly obviously she was my high school teacher. And so I lived in the house with her. And so while I worked and continued to go to the community college I lived with her for a couple of years. And than shortly after that I got married. And I have been married ever since. And that changed you know my life quite differently it became a different dynamic. Where I still can go to school full time but I was able to go to school part time and work and start you know the next step. You get married have children except the child didn’t come until thirteen years later you know. (Laughs) It just happened that way but it was my choice it was a decision for me to make you know what I mean it wasn’t my parent’s decision to make. So… STANISLOVAITIS: I sound like you have always sort of valued being independent and to have. JIMENEZ: Ahh your very smart, you are so smart. Yes and that is something that this this is funny. You’re going to make me laugh because yes a thing a child would experience. I was raised. most Hispanics are catholic. And for my elementary school I did go to a Catholic school. I was raised by the Catholic Church in school. But when it came to Sundays my grandfather would take me to a Presbyterian church. Which is a protestant faith. So during the weekend…during the week I was catholic but on the weekend I was protestant. Right because I was going to the catholic school it came the time where the girls had to do their first communion. Who any kind of Catholics? Are you Catholic? No, Okay but you know what a first communion is they have the ceremony and it’s like an induction in to somewhat older girlhood or adulthood almost. So I did my first communion and I did that without my parents consent. Because as far as I was concerned they could go to hell but I not. So I did my first communion and how my parents found out I found me a dress, the Vail, the shoes and somebody to take me up there to do my first communion, because that is what we were learning in school. It is time to do your first communion and this is why it is important to do it and dedicate your life you know say that you know are catholic. Now profess your faith. Yeah I think I am I’m not going to hell. So I did my first communion and how my parents found out was because the photographer brought pictures to the house to see if they wanted to buy the pictures of the beautiful girl doing her first communion. So yes I have been very independent so that’s an example right there. The other example I can give you about independence I can give you about independence is my…piercing of your ears. You know some Hispanic countries they do believe for children to have their ears pierced if they are girls the day they are born. You know? Mom already has earrings in the girls ears, my mom didn’t do that to me she wanted me to wait until you know I was fourteen or fifteen to get my ears pierced. No I didn’t wait I was probably seven or so my friend was getting her ears pierced by her grandmother and I went and had my ears pierced without my mothers consent. So yes you are very…very observant. Very smart. But yes I have been very independent sometimes gets me in trouble too. So yes I have been very independent in doing my own thing and that’s something you don’t…a luxury almost that most girls don’t have in third world countries to choose you know, what classes they are going to take next semester. You know someone is always telling you what to do whether it is your parents or your husband or somebody else. Yeah Page 9 �MOSHER: What were your parent’s reactions to you going off and doing those things with out their consent? JIMENEZ: Well (Laughs) my mom bought the pictures so whatcha’ going to do you know. (Laughs) I have a couple of them. She could not afford all of them but she did buy a couple of pictures and the other pictures I remember the man being upset when my mom told him that she couldn’t buy all the pictures and he tossed them in the street. You know she only bought two of them you know what I mean. I have…I have…I have those pictures. And for my earrings I had to hear the lecture I told you so, I told you so, I told you so, because they got infected. And so I had to do that, washing with soup and water and put alcohol in that little thread in there so that … MOSHER: to floss the little thing JIMENEZ: Yeah yeah to keep the hole open. Yeah you know if I hadn’t done that it would have just sealed back up but of course it got infected because I am sure the old lady that poked my ear probably didn’t disinfect the needle. It’s probably old and dirty. You know she did my friends ears and than she did my ears. So it’s like oh my gosh. So totally not clean technique, she probably didn’t even wash her hands you know. But my mom was very prompt to remind me “I told you so”. But what not they healed I got earrings (Laughs) So but anyway besides being annoyed and upset I think that she was also supportive you know you can only control your children so much that’s the other thing as a parent I have learned now. I can only offer my children the opportunity and than they have to make their own decisions as to what they are going to do with their lives. So that’s it. MOSHER: On a different not I know you met your husband Mark in high school, how did you do the two years when you were in Columbia after high school? JIMENEZ: Oh very good question. …letters. Mark would send me letters. Well Mark didn’t right me…I don’t know maybe six months almost a year until he sent me the first letter in high school. And I think it was because he bumped in to my cousin or something so he …got my address from one of them or I don’t remember what happened but I started getting letters in the mail and because the mail was so slow many times I would get two, three letters at a time. And I would try to send him a letter back. And I have a stack of letters and so I started telling him to please number the letters that way I would know that there was another letter coming. Because sometimes I think he spent his time in class writing the letter to me rather than studying. Because many times it would be written in the notebook and on notebook paper and than I feel that he would just finish fold it up put in an envelope and put it in the mail. If he was not finished with the letter he would continue on another page, and so he would send that one the next day and the mail…one would not catch up with the other and they would arrive out of order. So he started numbering the letters. And you know I would try to keep them in order. So I have a little stack of letters that Mark sent from the states, cards and that kind of thing. And the calling of the phone was expensive. We didn’t have Skype there was no email no instant messaging. You know none of those things that we take for granted now. I mean right now I could get on the internet with Skype connection and call my sister you know and see her you know it’s kinda cool. We didn’t have that and you know the phone it was expensive. And he had to tell me in a letter “ I’m going to try to call you on this day at this time” and than I would have to wait and think, “Is he going to call is he not going to call” Page 10 �you know I can’t leave. You know what I mean it was just a lot of hassle a lot of difficulty but…but that’s how it was done. No instant messaging, no texting, no emails, no phone messages either. No answering machines, did we have answering machines? I don’t think so. None of the convince. STANISLOVAITIS: That must have been really hard. JIMENEZ: It’s really hard. I know it’s really hard. It’s even hard now when he says “oh I can’t talk to you I have phone fatigue”. It’s like really? Phone fatigue. But anyway yeah it’s it’s really hard. It was really hard, it’s almost like a joke you know “no text messaging” (Laughs) I still don’t have text messaging but I know it’s available. You know what I mean. I mean if I don’t have it it’s because I’m delayed in moving in to the 21st technological advances. 21st century technological advances but not because I don’t want them you know I haven’t found a need for it. But you know it’s there. STANISLOVAITIS: Can you blame anyone that doesn’t want to be connected to everything all of the time? JIMENEZ: I know exactly. I do panic if I can’t find my cell phone. So yes I am one of those that has developed I think they came out on the Internet with a new phobia of being separated from your computer or I don’t know what they call it…eh phobia. So yeah I don need my cell phone. JIMENEZ: I think they came out with a new phobia of being separated from your computer or your…I don’t know what they call it. So yeah, I do need my cell phone. I’m always in the wrong place of town. I’m always like, I’m lost look at the internet, how do I get outta here, you know, and I’m on my way home or had a flat tire {and} ran out of gas, whatever I’m gonna be late, so I do need a cell phone. MOSHER: Earlier you talked about how you think young people they’re ungrateful for what they have. Do you think that’s in part due to the satisfaction of things like text messaging and Skype? JIMENEZ: I just think that, and I think we all, have a little bit of {a} lack of gratitude at one time or another, because it wasn’t until much later that I understood, and felt very grateful, that my parents sent me here. As hard as it was to be away from my parents during my early adolescent years and early adulthood, you know when I wish to be maybe mothered more than what my aunt was willing to do for me- because she wasn’t my mother, she was my aunt, after all. So I felt a little bit ingrateful {sic} not grateful enough, I feel. But later on I understood it was because she really wanted me to have better opportunities, and so I appreciated that highly. And I think with kids now all they have to do is tell the Easter Bunny what they want to bring ‘em and they kinda get it, ya know what I mean? I want a new swimsuit I want a new car, ya know, some kids get it, they just get it. Their parents are there. And so they don’t see that even though their parents go to work everyday, have to punch a card everyday, make sure that they don’t go on vacations, that they follow their finances and expenditures and purchases and stuff like that it still affects them. I think if their parents had a choice they’d wanna stay home, they don’t wanna go to work, ya know, unless they really love their job so much ya know, but at one time or another everybody has had to make even the sacrifice of getting up early in the morning to get in the car to drive to work. You may not always feel…you may like your work, but you may not always feel like you’re ready to go. You wanna sleep late on Monday morning sometimes, ya know? Page 11 �So you take for granted that at one time or another your parents have had to make do to provide for their children. Even if it is a different extra expenditure of the cell phone, the instant messaging, ya know the calls, the extra hours of points so you don’t go over your minutes or whatnot, you know what I mean? New clothes. And you wanna give your kids, too, ya know? So I think that kids just have it easy now. I mean there’s no more child labor, ya know what I mean? And you’re not gonna go hungry, most parents would provide for their kids, unless there are other circumstances, ya know, I’m not saying that all parents have the ability to provide for their children, ya know there is other issues whether it is drug dependency, or mental illness or unemployment like what’s going on right now, but I think for the most part parents, at one time or another, have always made a little compromise for their children. Ya know, diapers are expensive, especially when you’re just starting out and you’re working for a little bit more than minimum wage and you have a baby. And all of a sudden it’s like, it’s not that you don’t want the baby, but another side of you that money’s gonna be not for your haircut or your nails, it’s gonna go for diapers or a bigger Onesie ‘cause he’s growing too fast, ya know, so…and I don’t know that kids understand that, but I think you all will. At one time or another you’ll be parents yourselves and you will understand that a little bit better. MOSHER: Earlier we were talking about how you hadn’t seen much discrimination in America; do you think that’s true for almost everyone or do you think America’s just a really friendly place? JIMENEZ: I don’t know, I don’t wanna say that there isn’t discrimination, I just, from my personal experience, I have to say I have not ever felt it being directed ya know? But I mean I know that, , some African American individuals feel that they have been discriminated. Ya know I have never felt that, ya know. Some of ‘em may say that they need to be ‘paid back’ for slavery after all this time, I never can say that I’ve been a slave so I don’t know their experiences so I don’t have a shared experience with that, but I was like you, learned in school. I don’t deny it- yes, there was slavery- ya know, but I don’t know how to put it. I’m sure there’s discrimination. I can’t say that I have experienced it. STANISLOVAITIS: Well it seems like there’s a really big perception among other countries that Americans are spoiled and entitled, and like you said earlier, kids especially are not grateful for what they have because we have so many opportunities. Since you have been back to Columbia a few times, were you old enough, did you feel that way when you came back to America, did it make you look at Americans differently? JIMENEZ: No, because it’s just the environment that we live in; you just don’t know any better, you just don’t know any different. Until you experience that yourself you’re not gonna realize that it’s any different, right? I think that’s how I see it. But yeah, I could say that most kids are spoiled, but that’s what we want, as parents, we want ‘em to have what we didn’t have, you know what I mean? Like, I never had a beautiful bicycle when I grew up; I learned to ride a bicycle when I was fifteen. So needless to say I’m not very agile in turning wheelies and all this stuff, right, but when Lucas became of age, five or six, to have a bicycle, I got him the most beautiful bicycle I could find, because it was the bicycle I would’ve loved to have had as a kid. And granted it wasn’t purple and it didn’t have little flutteries, but it was a very beautiful red bicycle, right, Lucas? Page 12 �And I think as parents you will learn that it doesn’t matter, you’re gonna try to give your kids the very best you can. So I think that’s just being a parents ‘flaw’ or fault; we wanna give the kids the best. We don’t want them to have an trouble like our parents had or like I had, even though I don’t feel like I’ve had any trouble. We always wanna make it best for them, which may not be the best parenting thing to have done. We still wanna teach them to work hard, to study hard, to achieve, to progress, to motivate. But we don’t accomplish that test by providing things for them. MOSHER: The distaste…from other countries about America, do you think that stems from jealousy, or do they have other motives for disliking us as a country? JIMENEZ: I feel in part it’s jealousy, but also in part it’s their cultural influences, their own cultural influences. Because many people have had a background of being raised in a socialist mentality, that your computer is my computer, too, right? While, in America, it’s like, no, I have my computer, you have your computer, and you have your computer. And you get the computer you can afford, I get the computer I can afford, and you get the computer you can afford, but we all have computers, right? Over there I feel like it comes from the mentality that we’re gonna have to share and I don’t care how much money you have, you’re gonna pay more taxes and that kinda stuff. So it’s partly their social upbringing, their political influences, and their cultural as well. While here in America I feel that if I get two jobs, I might be able to get an Apple {computer} like that. It may take me a little bit longer saving it, but nobody’s gonna tell me I can’t have it. If I want it you betcha I’m gonna work for it and I’m gonna get it, even it means I’m not gonna go to McDonald’s’ for the next two months. Nobody’s telling me I cannot have it; nobody’s regulating whether I can go to the Apple store, or Walmart or Kmart or Meijer’s to get it, ya know what I mean? While over there they may only have one computer for sale; they may not have computers for everybody anyway, whether you have the money or not. Does that make sense? Does that make sense or am I just rambling? MOSHER: Do you think there’s anywhere else in the world that functions on that same ‘if you want it you can have it’ kinda thing, or is America the only place to get that? JIMENEZ: I think, another place might be, I’m assuming, I don’t know for a fact, but I think maybe England might work under those premises. That if you have the money, and you want it, and you have a job, you can get it. While in Mexico, for example, they may not be able to find that second job to buy what they want because their first job isn’t providing for them. Even if they wanted to get a second job, there isn’t one. Even here, with the extent of unemployment, and I don’t know if your parents are employed or unemployed with the economical circumstances we have now, we can still go mow the yards, there are still signs that say ‘help wanted.’ OK, maybe not with the skills that you went to school for or whatever, but you can find a job. I don’t know, I don’t think there’s another place in the world like the United States, I don’t think so. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that you have done a lot of traveling…do you feel like that has given you a bigger appreciation for not only for where you came from and where you are, but from a global view? Page 13 �JIMENEZ: Yeah, because I learned to appreciate other people’s cultures. For example, in my house I like to celebrate the Chinese New Year in January, so we have Chinese food. I love Chinese food, I wouldn’t wanna be without it. I wanna know that it’s available and I like it. I like to go to the Vietnamese kitchen; I like to go to the Italian restaurants, so defiantly I can appreciate the foods. My Pączki’s didn’t go unnoticed from the Polish community, I knew that they were available for when I wanted to get it, so I can appreciate that. I can appreciate the music, and I can appreciate the contributions that they have done not just to the United States, but culturally, and through literature and all that stuff. So yes, it broadens your prospective, and I appreciate that. But I don’t wanna live there; I’m happy right here. I wanna know that I can go just about any city in the United States and find a Chinese restaurant, an Italian restaurant, Greek, ya know. Whatever, I just want it here, I wanna go. STANISLOVAITIS: I think it’s kinda interested you mentioned restaurants and food and general things like that. When people think of things that they don’t have they don’t think of things like that. ‘Cause we’re always taught big things like education, and being independent and being able to provide for yourself. I feel like we don’t realize if we didn’t have those opportunities we wouldn’t have any of that. JIMENEZ: Absolutely. The little things do matter. And pretty soon you’ll realize it’s not the big picture, but it’s things that you do everyday that matter the most. MOSHER: So I guess to wrap things up here it’s safe to say that you think America’s a pretty diverse place? {Inaudible} JIMENEZ: Absolutely. I feel that it’s very diverse, and I feel that people are realizing that they need to fight for the opportunities and to keep it, for the opportunity to continue to be on their level. For the mentality that hard work would provide things for you, not wait for somebody to give them to you, OK. Don’t expect the government to provide for you health care, safety or security, or anything like that. You need to be able to provide those things for yourself, and in return provide it for your family, your community, and your. {Inaudible}. Whether it is the freedom of choice, the freedom of religion, the freedom to go to school and study whatever you want. And to shop for the things you want to shop for, and work as many jobs as you want to. MOSHER: Well, thank you for coming in Group: Thank you END OF INTERVIEW Page 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a2588214a018331d7231e2e49e2ef579.mp3 a35c6475300f6ff561200cdd0bcca1a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Jimenez_Fabiola Title A name given to the resource Fabiola Jimenez audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimenez, Fabiola Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mosher, Lucas Overhuel, Kelsie Richard, Kyle Karly Stanislovaitis Description An account of the resource Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman who has been living in East Michigan since 1994. She discusses how she feels as though she was never discriminated against because of her race. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5984733f3120b2a2d9bdf4c903a27c2a.pdf e72f147ff49acc8f3873f4c811d226c6 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Filiz Dogru Interviewers: Allison Kelleher, Ray Ramirez, Lukas Johnsen, and Jaci Cangealose Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/21/2012 Biography and Description Filiz Dogru was born in Turkey, came to the United States in 1990, and settled in West Michigan in August 2003. He is a professor at Grand Valley State University and an active member of the Niagara foundation and the Turkish American Michigan society. He discusses how he never felt different until moving to West Michigan, although the Grand Rapids area is improving on diversity. Transcript KELLEHER: So remember when I told you we were going to, the interview was going to be archived? DOGRU: Oh Boy, you are scaring me now. KELLEHER: I told you that for previous or for future research, if you want you, it can be used later on, or just for this project, it’s completely up to you. There is two of them you have to fill out, one of them is a copy for our teacher and one is a copy for Grand Valley’s records. DOGRU: Ok about this who will write, is it here in Michigan you are interested? Or in general in the world? CANCEALOSE: Let’s do both. KELLEHER: It’s for studies in west Michigan but it’s incorporating all different aspects. Yeah. DOGRU: Ok, Ahh. My previous interviews are not that serious, trust me. CANCEALOSE: Well we are required to do this. KELLEHER: Can I have your copy of the page… DOGRU: Ok final transcript like before you are presenting or before giving anybody, are you going to give it to me to read it? Because if there is any misunderstanding, I may say, oh, I didn’t mean this, is it? CANCEALOSE: I don’t think she went over that in class. KELLEHER: I don’t think she did either. Page 1 �CANCEALOSE: So we can ask her about it today. KELLEHER: We are presenting on Monday or Wednesday. DOGRU: Oh this coming Monday or Wednesday? CANCEALOSE: Yeah. DOGRU: Oh, so when I have time to see it? KELLEHER: We are gonna work on it this weekend, and we can give you…. DOGRU: This weekend I am not here (laughs). KELLEHER: Well we have… DOGRU: I am out of town. KELLEHER: We will do our best to get it done by like, when are you leaving? DOGRU: Saturday Morning. KELLEHER: Could we get it to you Friday if we work really hard and try to get this transcript done? It’s gonna be a lot but… DOGRU: If I can have it like Friday five o’clock or so. I can hopefully, I will check my e-mail, and get back to you by mid night or so, is that ok? KELLEHER: We will do our best to get it done by then. DOGRU: Ok, hopefully the questions are easier than this one. KELLEHER: Sorry. DOGRU: What do you want me to do? KELLEHER: You have to read it and give your initials. CANCEALOSE: Grand Valley makes us do this. KELLEHER: Both of these have to be done. DOGRU: Oh, this is my name right? KELLEHER: Yup. DOGRU: I wish you brought these. KELLEHER: Yeah I didn’t have them. DOGRU: Is that it? This one too? Page 2 �CANCEALOSE: Yup. KELLEHER: You can do it at the end if you want, since there is two of them and you had already done one of them. DOGRU: Ok. KELLEHER: If that’s what you like. DOGRU: I wish to do one of them. DOGRU: And today is 21st? KELLEHER: Yeah I didn’t have these with me yesterday. DOGRU: Oh, which one is me? KELLEHER: The printed name and then the signature. DOGRU: Yeah but both require my signature? KELLEHER: Is this supposed to be mine? CANCEALOSE: No you are the interviewer, you ask the questions. KELLEHER: We can get some white out. DOGRU: This is me? DOGRU: Alright guys let me see. KELLEHER: Sorry about that. DOGRU: You look so serious. KELLEHER: Sorry. DOGRU: It says could you please give me some information about yourself. DOGRU: Are you recording already? CANCEALOSE: Yes. DOGRU: You are serious? KELLEHER: We have to go back and listen to it. We just have to give it to her so she knows that we actually conducted the interview. DOGRU: Ok. KELLEHER: She is cool, she will let us. Page 3 �DOGRU: Full name is Filiz Dogru; do you want me to spell it? CANCEALOSE: Sure. DOGRU: D-o-g-r-u, I have one soft g in the Turkish alphabet, as opposed to the g in the English alphabet, that’s why it’s not Dog-ru but Dogru. And place of birth, is in Turkey, if I can have a paper? KELLEHER: Sure. DOGRU: In fact Turkey is called Turk-ey-ya, somehow in English they call it Turkey. And date is, oh that is a bad date, February 9, 1962. Ok I’m pretty old huh? Alright parents and siblings, parents are all passed away, siblings I have only one brother, ancestors, what would you want me to say on that? My grandparents, great grandparents, they are all passed away. KELLEHER: Where were they from? DOGRU: My mother’s side was the Balkan Turks, and my father’s side is from Anatolia, it is just regular Turkey, it is a long time they have been there. Life partner, I don’t have any. No marriage, nothing. No children. Education, I have three master’s degrees and one PHD. Religion is Islam. Community involvement, oh I am very actively involved in dialogue organizations, do you need particular names for that? Or just in general? KELLEHER: Yes please. DOGRU: I am an active member of the Niagara foundation, and I am an active member of Turkish American Michigan society. KELLEHER: Can you say that again? DOGRU: Turkish American Michigan Society. DOGRU: And professions, I am a mathematician, a university professor, political party, NOTHING. I hate politics; I don’t want to follow politics. This is my personal opinion anyway. DOGRU: When did you come to Western Michigan? August 2003, but I came to United States in 1990. DOGRU: How would you describe your own identity? I am a Muslim, Turkish American. DOGRU: Was there a particular moment in your adulthood or growing up when you were treated different because of your faith? Oh yea (laugh). Well first of all, growing up I was in Turkey, I came to the United States when I was 25 or 26 years old, and I didn’t felt anything until I came to western Michigan, it’s really funny isn’t it? Immediately after I come to western Michigan, I realize that I am different, not from the community, but I don’t know if that is related to my faith, or my dress code, or my accent maybe, or they realize my accent is from another country. I can’t pin point on that, but I definitely realized that I’m different. KELLEHER: What was it like in school? You said that you had three master’s degrees. Where did you get them from? Page 4 �DOGRU: I received a master’s degree at Brown University Providence, Rhode Island. It’s very diverse, and I didn’t feel anything was different because everyone was from somewhere. And then my second master is in Virginia Tech. That is also a huge research school too, so that is also very, very diverse. I didn’t feel anything, and also another thing is I didn’t live in the regular city. I also lived in the campus, at least you don’t feel you are different at the time, you just feel you are a student. It is all students there from different cultures and different ethics and things, and same thing; I got the third master degree from the University of Toledo. That is also very diverse school, I didn’t feel much. I earned my PhD at Penn State, in Pennsylvania. That is also a huge research school. Those schools, they are recruiting students from all over the world, you don’t feel some people are different and some are not, we are all, we do not feel anything. But immediately after I came to western Michigan, I wasn’t a student anymore; I wasn’t living in the campus. I had to find a regular apartment, I had to live in the community, and it’s a different approach with the community, you know? In that case yes, I felt it very much, in the mall, people are talking to you and it’s totally different than they were talking two seconds ago to someone else. And the cashier’s behavior, especially when I came here to the bank, I didn’t understand bank, cashier would be saying something about something and I would sorry I did not understand this and she would start raising her voice as if I don’t hear it. I told her ‘I am not deaf, please come down and tell me the term, what does that mean?’ And then they didn’t know how to deal with someone who looked a little different than them. That’s what I thought. KELLEHER: When you came from Turkey did you go immediately to college and live on the campus there or did you live in the community? DOGRU: No. The whole my life, I lived in always the college towns, always I was in the big schools, and always I was surrounded by those people. For example, at Virginia Tech, that is a small town, but the town is completely university. Penn State is like that too, the whole town is the university, you don’t see other people, everyone is faculty or for the university, or student, so even though it is a small town, you don’t feel it. Providence is a big city, but I lived since I was new at the time in the campus, I didn’t go around it that much, so I didn’t feel anything. And let’s see where else, here Grand Rapids was totally different because Grand Valley University, this university is separate from the city. It’s not the city is the university, so in that case you are some people know when I say I am working for Grand Valley they say ‘oh that’s great, my cousin’s daughter is going there.’ I mean it’s nothing close relation with the school. KELLEHER: So what made you choose Grand Valley? DOGRU: Job. So after I graduated I earned my PhD and I applied several places and got three jobs offer, I don’t know if you are family or how those work because every January we have mathematicians applying for jobs, we have a big meeting and in those meeting you can choose what jobs are good for you. Then you can apply. After you apply you and they like you, then they call for the interview. If they like you in the interview, then you get offered the job. I got offered several of them, I got three offers, and Grand Valley was the best of those three, so that’s why I came here. KELLEHER: You said that Grand Rapids was totally different because it was separate from the university. Can you talk about what your experience was like when you first came to Grand Valley and to the Grand Rapids area? Page 5 �DOGRU: Grand Valley was ok. I mean everyone somehow, someway went to graduate school. They know those kinds of environments; they came from outside the area to find a job, but outside the university is not very familiar. And still there are some, but it’s so different ten years ago and now, you can feel it, even Grand Valley did not have this much diversity. Now they are doing very good job to collect those students and faculty members. At that time, it was obvious, when you go into a meeting, or you go into some kind of gathering with the community, you are suddenly left alone there, you can see people looking at you a little differently, kind people, I’m not saying they are unkind, or bad. You can feel it, and that’s a very bad feeling, I had never felt that before. But it’s changing, I can definitely say that. There is a huge difference between ten years ago and now. KELLEHER: Did you ever feel different around your students or people that took your classes, things like that, how did your students react? DOGRU: Good question, very good question. I am a mathematician, I teach calculus, I teach geometry, whatever you can think of. In those classes, especially calculus’s, it’s not easy for the students, especially because some of the freshman are taking calculus. In the beginning, everything is interesting for them, I am interesting, different type of teacher, and especially the beginning because right this moment I think students taught students. They give the information about yourself, nobody knew me before, I was just there. They were staring at me, that fine, that’s okay, new teacher, they problem started, whenever they start getting bad grades. Good students usually don’t talk, if they like something in your class they don’t go around and say ‘oh it’s wonderful, it’s beautiful,’ but if one bad student in there doesn’t understand what you are saying, he immediately blames you have an accent, you are not talking English, this is coming up. In the first several years, the first three or four years, it was coming up. It came up very much. I was like ‘oh god, I have been here twenty years talking with these kids and they don’t understand.’ I have ninety students, five of them don’t understand, and those five student’s voices are out, but anyway, those kinds of things happen. I even remember once, one student went very well the whole semester, and suddenly he flunked the final. Everything was fine at the time, oh he was friendly coming in and out, and of course when you flunk in the final, your grade is automatically going down. It won’t fail it, but if it is A it becomes B, and B becomes C, and goes on. And after final he came and he said ‘you know I flunked because you know you are, you are…’ and I said ‘what? You know, what happened?’ He said ‘well you are not speaking well.’ I just looked at him, oh lady I am sorry. Whole semester, first exam, second exam, his quizzes, his homework, everything is done, but final is horrible and I’m not speaking very well? Ok that’s fine but I didn’t speak Turkish (laugh). You should have just told me, but anyways, those kinds of things happen. I am usually a very patient person, that is my personality. You remember several students from the beginning that they will blame immediately my English if they do not understand mathematics. I call them, come over, let’s look at it. One student I remember couldn’t do it, just couldn’t do it, he got mad and he slammed the door went. I just said okay, you learn more. KELLEHER: About how often does that happen? You have encounters with… DOGRU: No, I’m talking these things in about the first three years KELLEHER: The first three years. Page 6 �DOGRU: Yeah, the first three years. After that, as I said, the students are teaching, I mean talking to each other, and one generation to another generation. I think somehow, someway, before coming to my class, they have some information about me. KELLEHER: Okay. DOGRU: So that helps. KELLEHER: Yeah. DOGRU: So I’m talking about the first three years it was really bad. But went okay (laugh). KELLEHER: Did you ever encounter anything with other faculty? Not just other students, but with faculty? Any situations that were not quite right, where you, treated a certain way? By faculty, not just students. DOGRU: Mhmm. it is very unfortunate, but yes. I witness couple of things that even today I remember very well and it hurts. But the thing is, the good part is, forget about the negative. Good part is those people that hurt me in first couple of years, they already realize what they have done and they already apologized. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: So that is helpful. I mean, everybody can make mistakes. I can make mistakes too. But the good part is if you realize that mistake and you don’t repeat it, and at the same time, eh, make the other person think that you already know it. I did that mistake, but I regret it, and maybe not in clear words but actions helps a lot. So yes, it happened. KELLEHER: Would you mind telling us what happened? You don’t have to if you don’t want to. DOGRU: Right now the person who told this I really like and we’ve become very good friend, but without giving a name, that person, I don’t even say “he/she”, that person was kind of advising a new faculty members and we were two at that time and that person was advising the other new one and I was behind that person and I heard how advising, that person advising that new faculty member and then I approached and I let them know I was there and then same person turned back and said “oh, you know what, I’m advising that person, so let me give you similar advise to that, to you also, and then in her advice, telling me that standards was so high. Like, I don’t want to give into details, and it was so obvious. That person didn’t realize that I already heard what was telling to the other one, and then, for example if advice to that person is ‘do two of those, that’s enough,’ and then same thing, exactly the same thing and turn back to me and saying ‘do four of those, even four won’t be enough.’ That hit me very well but I didn’t do anything at that time. I like that person right now, and we are good friends. (Laughs). KELLEHER: That’s good. DOGRU: That’s good? Keep going? Page 7 �KELLEHER: Yes. DOGRU: Where are we? KELLEHER: We jumped around a bit. DOGRU: Oh we did? Okay, So are you going to ask? Or do you want me to go one by one? KELLEHER: We’re kind of skipping around. DOGRU: Oh okay then I’ll listen to you. KELLEHER: We got a little off track. I liked it. (Laughs from both) DOGRU: Well we can turn back if you want. I have time. KELLEHER: How did you… going back to your encounters in the classroom with other faculty… How did you deal with those kind of things in situations?” DOGRU: Okay, that’s a good question. Many, many times I sit down and think about it by myself. I was planning to be here for a long time. First of all, as a person I’m not a quitter. I don’t. ‘It is too hard, I quit! And go.’ No. I’m not that kind of person. At the same time, I don’t like the people step on me. I really don’t like it. And as I said just a second ago, about student, I’m a very, very patient person. First of all, I like talking. But the thing is I don’t do it immediately because when you confront people immediately, they usually get defensive and they don’t hear you, but they just try to defend themselves. So in that case, the first reaction from me is being quiet, and back off. And the, in the right moment, but I cannot forget, that’s the, that’s the thing. In the right moment, at the right time, I can bring it back and talk. Maybe some that person doesn’t except at that moment too, but at least I will let them know that I know these things. I’m aware of it. Because let me tell you one thing, , cultures are so different. I grew up in a Turkish culture, which you have to be very modest, very calm, and very… how can I say? Put the others first. But, honestly, I will say this - this culture, , translated here has a stupidity. If you put others before yourself, and if you act modestly, like for example in some of your success, here I can see people are really proud and say it. But, I grew up in a culture if you do big good things you don’t say it. Let other people say those things. So if you don’t say those things, people translate that one as if you don’t have a self-confidence, you don’t have , how can I say these things? Mean you are not sure about yourself. So they translate that way. It took some time for me to understand that. Because to be hble, to be modest, is my way of living. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: At the same time, you are humble and modest and suddenly people are thinking ‘Ha! You’re stupid. You don’t even say it! You don’t even proud of it!’ So this was a difficult thing for me. So I am trying to balance right now. I cannot just go around and say ‘Hey look I did this, I did that!’ I cannot do that because I couldn’t, I uh I wasn’t taught that way. I wasn’t grew up that way. But at the same time, right now I realize if you don’t say it, people are not taking it very well. So I’m trying to balance it a little Page 8 �bit. So this is the difficult thing. Oh, another thing. Forgiveness also really translates here stupidity. Yeah. If you are good, well for me it’s if you are good you forgive people if they make some mistakes. Maybe they can, maybe you can give a second chance. So in that case they really translate ‘Oh, she’s stupid and she doesn’t realize that.’ But it’s not. It’s totally different. , but I do I regret for that? No. Will I change it completely? No. Because there is a saying also in English the saying that ‘Killing with kindness.’ I think it works. I think it really, really works. If you go and start fighting, if you go and start confronting, people will make the problem bigger and bigger. Instead, just let the cool down a little bit in the environment and talk to people later on may effect more. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: My opinion, as I said. KELLEHER: Mhmm. That’s fine. , you mentioned that you noticed uh differences in the like reactions and and modesty and in forgiveness and in that kind of things. What was one of the first things that you noticed when you came from Turkey? DOGRU: Mhmm. KELLEHER: Like here, when you were first at school doing your master’s. What was one of the first things that you noticed culturally was a big difference for you that you had to come to terms with? DOGRU: For me, it’s diversity. I mean, not the feelings, but in Turkey, okay, when I came here first … let me put it together. In Turkey, we have different type of; we had to write nouns, I had been here more in fact. Uh we had over there so many different types of people because of the big Ottoman Empire. Its uh, we have European type, we have Asian type, we have Russian type, we have Russian type, we have Arabic type. I mean we have so many different features, different uh color hair color, eye color, and different types of people. And I never ever felt that. I mean, we didn’t know there was any difference until I came United States. And when I came to United States, I don’t know whether I should say this or not, but suddenly, still they were talking about ‘colored’ people. When I heard this term first I was shocked! Truly shocked! What does that mean? People is people. What does the ‘colored’ mean?! The first time I realized that there are still some differences do we have in Turkey? Oh yea. Right now we have tons of different people! But we never thought about it. We never think about it. And then later on after I came here they started some Turkish-Kurdish stuff in Turkey. I said ‘Uh, that’s not what I know!’ (Laughs) DOGRU: Because we live together, we don’t even know who is who. We just all same country people. Who cares where they from? That is the first thing shocked me here. I said, they immediately, they are still thinking about the, uh those days, and they are still thinking about the unfairness between it, and then I didn’t recognize it in the campus too much even though I heard it. But, when I came to Western Michigan, I felt it a little bit. They still have that kind of mindset. But as I said, in time, it’s going much better. Right now I can feel the difference. I hope that was the answer of… what was the question? I don’t know (laugh). Page 9 �KELLEHER: No, that was, that was perfect. Was there, you said you didn’t notice uh in Turkey everyone lives together and there a difference. You don’t notice a difference at all. DOGRU: Exactly. KELLEHER: Is there no… I just don’t understand because here, we treat people differently and it’s so unfortunate. , are no one’s treated differently there because of your ethnicity or your race… DOGRU: “No one. Because you didn’t know who was who.” KELLEHER: “Okay.” DOGRU: “Just just people. Your neighbor, your worker, your things. We never interested in where they come from. We never. I mean, we were interested in how good person is. How hard worker is. How, let’s see… how they are behaving to their neighbors and stuff. These are the more important thing for us. We never ever… well maybe I was young, so maybe that’s what. But even here, I mean young people know about those things. Sometimes even makes me think. If you guys don’t have, or if we don’t have here, just those celebrations like ‘Oh we have to celebrate that, we have to celebrate this,’ so even those emphasize. Or, so how can I say it? In school for example, uh, teachers sometimes give a talk. Saying that ‘Oh you have to behave same with this person, that person.’ I think that gives the students mind ‘Oh, we are not doing it? Or maybe it’s not supposed to be done that way that teacher is warning me?’ So this, I don’t know, I might be wrong as I, my observations is this one. We never thought about that person you have to behave good and that person you have to behave good. You have to behave everyone good! You don’t have to emphasize it so you are behaving good to that one so you have to behave good to this one too. No! Everything is same! You have to behave good to all. (Laugh) That’s it! KELLEHER: You’re not highlighting differences. DOGRU: Right, right, right! KELLEHER: Okay. DOGRU: This is a right word. Highlighting. They are highlighting here sometimes. KELLEHER: Mhmm, like with… DOGRU: Even, let me interrupt you, and this is a really interesting thing. I was hired here and many, many faculty members whose foreign origin comes from other country, they grew up here or they went to school here, maybe eh late ages and stuff. When they hired here, they didn’t ask ‘International Faculty,’ or more worse, ‘Foreign faculty.’ They never give any advertisement like that. I never applied for this ‘Foreign faculty’ advertisement. They look for ‘Faculty Members.’ But after I came here, I realize I’m already classified, separated, as ‘Foreign faculty members’ and this really bothers me and still bothers me. I still keep talking but nobody listens to me. (Laughs). I mean, yes, we may born in a different country but nobody hired me here, or offered me job anywhere saying ‘We are hiring you because you are a foreign faculty.’ Then I understand that. That means there’s a different class that they are hiring for that class. No! They didn’t give me anything separate. They are just saying ‘This is the job Page 10 �advertisement, this is the qualification’ and I applied for that. And then suddenly after I came to Grand Valley, not just me, they always call either ‘International Faculty,’ or worse, worse, worse is ‘Foreign faculty.’ Why am I foreign faculty?! I, I, I fight, I say it? Applied under the same conditions with everybody. There is no ‘foreign’ or ‘non-foreign.’ KELLEHER: Similar qualifications… DOGRU: Exactly! Qualifications is there, background is there, everything was there. They give me the same interview, uh… KELLEHER: Process. DOGRU: Yes, process, exactly. And then, they hired me! And why am I suddenly faculty member which is foreign?! That’s, that’s not good. (Laugh) KELLEHER: I just thought of… [Unclear] DOGRU: I think this helps you. KELLEHER: Oh, it does. This is great. We live, this building is two buildings down from the international housing. DOGRU: Uh-huh… KELLEHER: On campus, the Murray building, right next to Van Steeland is international housing so I just thought of that. DOGRU: So international students go there? KELLEHER: They have the option to apply to be, err, apply to live in international housing, and I just thought of… DOGRU: Why not just student housing? KELLEHER: Exactly. DOGRU: International? They already put you in a different chair. Done. And then they are saying ‘You are good to me; you should be good to that one too.’ That’s no. I’m sorry. (Laughs) KELLEHER: No, please keep going if… DOGRU: That’s, that’s it. CANCEALOSE: I have a question. You’re, you were born in Turkey. Do you have your U.S. citizenship? DOGRU: Yes I do. CANCEALOSE: When did you get that? Page 11 �DOGRU: it was a choice. It’s recently in fact because I worked more than nine years. After four, okay, let me tell you this process. After you become green card permanent resident after four years, you will be able to apply and have your citizenship. I waited like almost eight years. I didn’t apply immediately. So after eight years, I applied so I got that. CANCEALOSE: Was it a hard process? DOGRU: Not hard but long. CANCEALOSE: Yeah. DOGRU: Long, long process. Let me tell you another things, for example my brother and his family came to United States ten years ago, no twelve years ago and then they become a citizen after three, three and a half years I think. They become a long before then me. So its process is up to you I mean, when are you applying, when are you getting it. But I got recently, one or two years. CANCEALOSE: Oh, okay. DOGRU: I had green card though before. CANCEALOSE: Mhmm. KELLEHER: What made you change your mind? You said you waited. Most people wait after the four year process. What made you want to wait even longer? DOGRU: Well this, which is good, just time. I couldn’t find time to apply because as I said process is long. So you have to fill lots and lots and lots of forms and they sometimes send you for fingerprinting in somewhere. Sometimes Detroit. So you won’t have time to go there. So time was very difficult. At that time I wasn’t tenured also. I didn’t know whether I would be able to tenure or not. So I said ‘Well, just wait. Wait and see what will going, and how it goes the process.’ And then then I got tenured, I said ‘Oh, okay then let me get it.’ (Laughs) KELLEHER: Was there a time where you ever, or will there be a time you think where you want to go back to Turkey? And if... just don't want to be here anymore and you want to go back home? DOGRU: Was there a time? . Ph.D. is a very hard job, especially in mathematics, the reason I wanted to go back home and quit everything sometimes, whenever I get very, very stressed because of the work got too hard. But as I said I'm not quitting very quickly, that easy. Yes once in a while I said ‘Ok I'm leaving this things, I don't want to be doctor, I don't want anything anymore,’ that moment’s came but usually because of the work stressed. But that kind of moment never came after my PhD. I'm done with that, it’s ok. Yes work was hard from time to time but there's the expression or the saying in Turkish language, ‘I burned all my ships to go back.’ There's no way back now, I don't know does it make sense for you or not. I came with the ships but I burned them all so there's no way back. So this is my way home, that's it. KELLEHER: What made you decide math? Page 12 �DOGRU: Oh that's a long story, but this is a very classical I guess. From the childhood, (laugh), but it's true because I was really unique in my classes since from the elementary school. I was very enjoying mathematics and then my teachers usually picked me for mathematical competition, mathematical whatever we have some kind of program stuff. I was picked all the time, so that give me kind of proud and saying ‘ooh, I'm doing something good’ (laugh). And it continued, and mathematics opened me to go abroad. Opened the opportunity to give me opportunity to go abroad. So I came to United States. If I'm a chemistry major for example, or let's say biology. In those types of areas, not much foreign students can be able to find a job here. Mathematics is a little bit better, it's really interesting but when you have graduate school, every school has a different type of, let's say, math, biology, chemistry and those types of things. And especially the finance related schools, you won't be able to find a lot of foreigners in there, so you will just international, you will just go ahead and pick those schools and then people who are finding jobs from those schools, which originally from other countries is much less than people are finding jobs here, from other countries, in physics, mathematics, , engineering, those are more in here. I mean you can find a job better. KELLEHER: Why do you think that difference exists? You said it would be different if you were a chemistry major. It would be more difficult for you to find a position. DOGRU: That's right. I don't know. I think people who are here, especially in mathematics, American students, in other words are just born and raised in United States, they don't like mathematics. They say ‘We hate mathematics, we hate math!’ This is could be the reason, maybe it affects above levels, yes we have lots of American born faculty members and stuff but in big research universities, if you really go there. It's the foreign, ‘foreign faculties’ (laugh), are more over there. So that case, I think that education is from the bottom I think, from the elementary school, and especially in Asia and Balkan region and not recently but earlier in Russia. And those area are really strong in mathematics and physics and those kinds of things. I don't know, I mean I'm not education person in that subject, you know. KELLEHER: Do you think if you were still, if you were born here in the US would you still consider yourself Turkish, Muslim American, you claimed your ancestry, you still would have been able to get the same position? Or going off of when we were talking about the differences in being able to get the job and job opportunities, do you think you would have had the same opportunity to get this position or any of the other ones you were offered? DOGRU: You mean if I was born here, raised here, go to school here to prepare myself? KELLEHER: But you still practice your... DOGRU: My religion and my background and culture. KELLEHER: Right and you claimed your Turkish decent and you claimed that, just a hypothetical... DOGRU: I believe so. The reason is, I mean I don't know how good I would be at the time, my education would be where, I mean how much mathematics I would know or whether I would be able to do those PhD, asse that everything is done, I believe would the same qualification and the same time I would Page 13 �have the same job offers because those job offers or , those job posts, doesn't separate about the culture or the religion, about the what country you are from, about the you understand what I am saying? I mean whenever we search even right now I mean whenever we search some faculty position, for some faculty position, we just give the qualification and we put over there, what kind of things we are looking for in that person. And those things doesn't include their culture and their background and their religion. Those are totally different things, so it's a good thing in fact. So whether I born there whether I born here doesn't matter but all I need is match the qualification and you're what they are looking for. As long as they match I think they will be ok. KELLEHER: Will you tell us about your family? DOGRU: My family, as I said I'm not married and I don't have children, I don't have my own small family, but as a family I have my brother who is in Pennsylvania. He is the closest family right now I have. And he has two kids going to Penn state, so good. And then I have four cousins but we don't see each other much because they are in Turkey and I am here and travel is too expensive. Well you may say ‘well travel is not there but Skype is there,’ but everybody is so busy. So it's difficult. Once in a while yes in the holidays and here and there when some wedding ceremonies and stuff we call each other or something but other than that we don't want, we don't have, not want, but we don't have very close relations right now. KELLEHER: Do you get to see your brother often? DOGRU: Oh yeah, yes, almost every break, for example Christmas break and ser break. But he didn't have very demanding job before and he was coming and visiting me and I was going and visiting them but now he is working like 24/7 so it's hard for him to come but we talk on the phone. So yeah. KELLEHER: What made your brother, do you know what made your brother want to leave Turkey as well? DOGRU: yeah, I know very well because he, I don't know whether you guys remember or not, in 1999 there was a huge earthquake in Istanbul. Istanbul is the biggest city in Turkey, and in that earthquake my brother with two partners had a big shop that they were sewing and selling the coats, winter coats for man and woman. And they were sewing, it was very good business but unfortunately in that big earthquake everything is gone, because buildings are over and all the customers, the people who are buying from them and selling there are gone too, and the business is just pffff, disappeared. And then those three partners decided to separate, everybody, some of them went to other city, some of them stayed in Istanbul. At that time I was forcing him to apply for a green card. I don't know whether you are familiar with the green card or not. Green card is permanent residency in the United States. And he was applying and that year it was third year for him. There is a green card lottery every year in United States, they have some particular nber of people, for example they were saying 500 people from Turkey, 500 people from, I'm just throwing those countries names, Russia, 500 from Mexico, 500 this, 500 that. So they are making a lottery out of those applications and then they are choosing people. My brother in the third year had this situation, the losing everything. And they got the lottery. They got the green card. So he called me and he said ‘well what we going to do? Can we come?’ ‘Cause they didn't speak English, Page 14 �they didn't have money. That was little difficult at that moment. And I said ‘Well I'm here.’ I was a student but let's try. In the worst case you'll go back and start all over. And then they said ok and they came. At that time kids were very young. My nephew was 9 years old I believe, it's the third grade. And then my niece was the first grade student. They came and the third day we put them in school, without speaking one word of English, my goodness. So they came, they start with the very small thing, like my brother went and washed the dishes at one restaurant and my sister in law babysit for some people. That cased they slowly learned English, the kids of course they grabbed English very, very quick. They helped their parents, I helped a little bit and then they decided ok, we're going just fine, let's go on, let's keep going. Then they're going right now, they're still here. And my nephew right now is the third year college student. Can you believe that? And my niece just started this year, she’s a freshman. So yeah. They decided to be here too. KELLEHER: Do you know of if they've had any encounters, unfortunate encounters where they were treated differently, that you know of? DOGRU: I don't think so, no. The reason is that they live all their lives in Pennsylvania State College, I don't know if you're familiar with that town or not, that town is a very, very diverse place. So in that case there are lots of people that came from other countries. If you are in the environment, you don't feel it. You don't know that you are different because everybody is different in that case. If you call different. So everybody is han, here we go (laugh). Children of God. KELLEHER: Will you talk about the organizations you're involved in? DOGRU: Oh sure! my organizations is the Niagara Foundation. Niagarafoundation.org. I'm doing commercial right now (laugh). It's nonpolitical, nongovernmental, and nonprofit organization. Completely volunteer based and they are trying to promote the dialog and friendship, all the good things you know in the society. And they are doing these things on so many different levels. For example, this Niagara Foundation is best organization. In 11 states is included, Michigan is one of them. So what they are doing is they are having dialog dinners, annual. Almost every city. In those they are bringing all the community leaders together in that dinner. And then we have always three speakers and then we have always a topic, for example the last one was art of living together. So they give a speech on that and with the nice good Turkish food, so we just discuss those things and then we have annual again every city in Michigan. Abrahamic dinners, we put those in that case we invite religious leaders and religious communities to get together. For example the last one was in Alni house here and topic was altruism. And we invited one Jewish, one Christian and was Muslim speaker. They talked about that and we have seminars for example, on 24th, today is what? 21St, I believe it's the 24th at Ann Arbor. Yesterday was in Lansing. There are two seminars called “Heroes of Peace” so in every culture whoever worked very hard for peace, one person will talk about that person. For example Mother Teresa is one of them, Gandhi was one of the topic, and Goolen was another topic. And there are several of them right now but we can check. And then we have for example two weeks they go in Lansing we had for the woman's history month. We had woman panel perspective of all three woman leader from the community. One was senator, the other was medical doctor, and these are all from different communities and then one was dean. Those three ladies talk about their difficulties; the questions like you are asking me right now, it's very similar. So we asked those questions to them and then they gave Page 15 �beautiful presentation. So that helped for the society too. And then the Niagara Foundation, I can go on and on I don't know, you can stop me at any time. And then we can have visitation of the nursing homes, visitation of the young children stays without mom and dad. Foster care. Orphanages, yeah those kinds of places and then they help for the food banks and let me see what else. Oh, that's my favorite one which is the children's day. Last year we had it at Wayne State University and this year they are having it again. In that every single culture in the United States the children coming and performing their own dance, song, things, and so colorful and so beautiful. You can go to the website and see more. And see all the video tapes they have over there, it's so beautiful. And last year even though it was the first one, 17 different ethnic groups send their children for some performance. It was a beautiful one, that was my favorite, anyway. I can go on more, there are luncheons, fors, so many things, visitations and stuff but I'll cut if off. KELLEHER: What about the Turkish American society you mentioned? DOGRU: Very good, in fact this Niagara Foundation and Turkish American society are kind of sister organizations. Niagara Foundation more on the dialog among the societies, among the communities and Turkish American Society is more on cultural stuff. So it's going on the lots of, for example it will be soon, next week sometimes, I'd have to check the date. It will be henna night, do you know henna night? Henna night is the night before the marriage. Girl's friends get together in one house and have a big celebration. Only girls, only girls! Sorry (laugh). Big celebration and then they are culturally, represent those celebration in Ann Arbor, or Detroit, they are doing it this year. It is nice stuff is going on but not just one or two, I mean it's a lot. I cannot list them right now, it’s not possible. So they are yes they are sister organizations but their work is a little bit different. DOGRU: And then, Niagara Foundation… I can go on and on, I don’t know. You may stop me any time. And then we can have, uh, visitation of the nursing homes, visitation of the, uh, young children stays without mom and dad… KELLEHER: Foster care. Orphanages. DOGRU: Orphanages, yeah those kind of places. And then they help for the food banks and, let me see what else. Oh! That’s my favorite one which is the Children’s Day. Last year we had them at Wayne State University and this year they are doing it again and that, every single culture in United States, the children uh coming and performing their own dance, song, things. And so colorful and so beautiful. You can go to website and have more and see all those web videotapes they have over there. It’s so beautiful. And last year, even though it was the first one, 17 different ethnic groups and their children for some performance. It was a beautiful one. That was my favorite, well anyway. I can go on more. There are luncheons, fors, so many things, visitations, and stuff, but I’ll cut it off. KELLEHER: What about the Turkish-American… uh… Michigan Society that you mentioned? DOGRU: Very good. In fact, this Niagara Foundation and Turkish-American Society are kind of sister organizations. Niagara Foundation… eh… more on the dialog among the societies, among the communities. And Turkish-American Societies is more on cultural stuff. So it’s going on, lots of, for example, it will be soon, next week sometimes. I have to check the date. It will be Henna night. For Page 16 �example, do you know Henna night? So Henna night is a night before the marriage, eh, girl’s friends get together in one house and have a big celebration. Only girls, only girls, sorry! (Laughs) Big celebration and then they are culturally represent those, eh, celebration in Ann Arbor, or Detroit they are doing it this year. So, it is nice stuff is going on. But not just one, two, I mean it is a lot. I cannot list it right now. It is impossible. So they are, so they are yes, sister organizations but their work is a little bit different. DOGRU: Different targets. Okay. We, uh, for, as part of our class had to watch a video. … it was called, , 30 Days. I don’t know if you’re familiar with 30 Days. , they take, err. In this video we watched they took a practicing Christian and they challenged him to live 30 Days as, with a Muslim family. And he had to participate in the things they participated in, dress the way that they’re supposed to, eat the same food, go to, uh, , practice their faith, and it was a really interesting video to watch. And it, we have one of our questions for you was, Muslims are depicted differently on the television. And the media twists things around in almost all aspects of life. And I was wondering what your, , kind of take was on the way, uh, Muslims are viewed through the media’s eyes… if you have an opinion on that. DOGRU: Well, unfortunately you can hear right now it’s very little positive things about Islam or Muslims. Well, (sigh), it is really unfortunate but right now one good thing. I usually pick the good things. In fact, one good thing, uh, people, especially the young generation: eager to learn before decide. So, the older generation when I look or talk, whatever they hear from the media, they just have it. And unfortunately since media doesn’t talk very positive, then they have very negative view towards Islam and towards Muslims. But, as I said, young generation is little bit more curious before taking it in, maybe because of the technology. I don’t know. They know the internet, they know the Facebook. They can communicate much faster than older generation. Even me, I mean you are, you guys are much better than me. And then they are learning. And they are can reach the information easier, faster. And then they decide their own instead of uh, listening someone else’s opinion about something. Which is a very, very big plus for me. , how can we change the media? Can we do it? Mmm… not very soon. The reason is I’m saying this is a recently I learned that it was in the internet again. There is a special, uh, company. It’s really paid with the big budget and their job is create a bad media against Islam. And then the company beside this, uh, fear.inc. Fear dot I mean information is in here. So they give incorporations. So if you read that thing, they give who is donating that money, how much money, how they are working, what they are doing. And there is a huge things going on behind the scenes. So it’s very clear that there is a active, , work just, just, just to be bad publicizing Islam and, ah, Muslims. So in that case, that will be always there. It won’t go away. But, as I said, I mean, without learning, the young generation usually don’t fall into that… hole. So which is good. And about Muslims, , I cannot say all of them are nice. Muslims are, Muslims are also a han being. And there are bad ones too. There are the ones that I can’t even see and hear sometimes and I want to slap them! So, there are. Unfortunately, just looking at those people and then decide about their religion, that’s a wrong decision. In any religion. In Islam, in Christianity, on Judaism, or Buddhism, or whatever, or Hinduism, whatever you are approaching. You cannot judge a religion by looking at just one or two people. Could be those two people are not even practicing. So, but they call themselves Muslim, and they call themselves something else. And then so then the whole religion is getting the bad influence? No. That’s not right. If someone wants to learn about Islam, or Muslims, or Christianity, or Judaism, they supposed to learn from the right sources. And it is really hard, I can tell. I mean, how can you decide which is right, which is wrong? And for us, one Page 17 �good guidance is always there, as a Muslim, by myself. Sometimes some books even can confuse me. Uh, the Quran is my first guidance because that never ever changed; that’s the good part. From the beginning, ‘till now. Go to Malaysia, go to Indonesia, go to Arabia, go to Turkey, go anywhere! It’s still the same. I know sometimes it’s hard to understand. I know we have to read the translation not the real one. But still, that’s the best guidance in the moment that we cannot decide. We confused. That is, that is what I can say on that. But, of course. I mean if you, if, if you want to learn good sources and good references, you can see, I mean, if somebody who’s not practicing Islam. Somebody who’s, eh, not doing anything related to it and suddenly comes and talks about Islam. If you listen that one, how healthy is that? I mean it’s very obvious and logical. All you need to do is more, mean you can look at people’s life even you can decide, ‘Oh! That person is doing good in her or his religion.’ You know? And plus, that you said Christian lived in a Muslim family… this is a good gesture. It’s good. But to force people to live in somebody’s home and somebody’s culture, why? It’s not necessary. We supposed to celebrate our differences and our commonalities. Why do, he’s wonderful with his belief, Christian. And she or he is wonderful with his/her belief, Muslim. So why not put them common ground and let them practice that and let them practice that. We have to have a differences. We cannot put everybody in a same clothes. That’s impossible! We have to have the differences. That’s the beauty. The Niagara Foundation is in fact emphasizing this one a lot. One thing I forgot, can I go back and tell one more thing about it? Uh, when I say differences and stuff in them… we have every year, Noah’s Pudding celebration. I don’t know whether you’ve heard about it or not. Do you know? , Noah’s Pudding: everybody knows Noah, right? Is a prophet long time back, had flood, lots of animals and his, eh, ship. And then flood is gone and was everything was out and happens. Good! Very good. In that time, at the end of the flood, eh, the food inside the ship is almost finished. And they had little bit of this, little bit of that, of rice and nuts, and whatever you can think of, grains, and fruits, dried fruits and anything. But everything is little by little. But they have to have a big dish to eat; maybe the last dish but big dish. What they do is put altogether and cooked. Niagara Foundation makes it every year. Same dish. We call it Noah’s Pudding. So many different things at the same time! That dish is delicious, sweet dish. It’s delicious! So, we look at people like that! I am Muslim, somebody’s Christian, somebody’s Jewish, somebody is... uh… Hindu, somebody’s Buddhist, somebody is something else that I don’t remember right now. That’s okay. We come together and we can make a very good Noah’s Pudding. Trust me. (Laughs) Maybe I should bring Noah’s Pudding here to share with everyone. That, I should do that. You give me idea, okay! I’ll, I’ll try. KELLEHER: … going back to, uh, before the story about Noah’s Pudding, , you talked about the differences: let them practice this, let these people practice this. In the video, when you said you can’t uh, look at two people and get an idea for an entire culture, you can’t get an idea and an understanding. That’s the realization that , this man, this Christian man came to when he spent the 30 days with the Muslim family. And it was, he said almost the exact same thing, he said ‘you can’t blame (in reference to he heard a lot about 9/11 and the treatment of Muslims after that time.) He said you can’t blame a country or a religion or a group of people for the actions of five.’ And his time that he spent in, with, in the 30 days was really a way of educating himself about it because he didn’t know about it. And it was wonderful to see how his viewpoints turned and I just… DOGRU: He’s, he’s right. I mean, you cannot just go on and see a couple bad people and then say ‘oh, that religion is bad.’ But you don’t know the billions and billions of people following that religion maybe Page 18 �is good, you know? So it’s kind of very, very difficult things. , knowledge is important. If people know what is what, then they know better. In that case they won’t decide with the one or two people, obedient or behaviors. Definitely. But I don’t know how to increase the knowledge, well, that is my goal too. KELLEHER: As part of your organizations. DOGRU: Exactly yeah. Inviting people and trying to tell. , also I blame some Muslim people too. They were too closed before 9/11. They weren’t, integrated in the society. You understand what I’m saying? I mean, they were, they just lived in their own community. Which is not right. You have to know your neighbor. You have to help your neighbor. You have to say hi to your neighbor. This is Islam. But unfortunately, before 9/11, we had, well, somehow Muslim community here and they don’t mix up with others. So that was bad too. Right now, that’s what we’re trying to do. I mean because, han being is han being. If you have children, you love them. If you see something bad, you hate them. If you, if you are hungry, you love good food! Right? Han being is a han being. I mean, Mom, just think about this. Mom and their children. Do you think is any different than any other culture than Muslims? Muslims there, this country, or some other religion here in this country. Do you think mothers and children relation is different? No. Their love is exactly the same way. And everybody’s cry… One person told me that, it was really, (sigh) , I will just, I told him you are ignorant. He said ‘well I didn’t know that Muslims could sit and cry too.’ I said ‘what are you talking about!’ You are… because they are always fight? In their eyes they always fight. They always like fighters and they supposed to not cry at all. They are han idiot! I’m sorry. (Laughs) No! They laugh, they cry, they work, and they have friends, they have family. They are exactly the same. Because han feelings are the same. Doesn’t matter where you’re born, what kind of religion you belong to. Well… knowledge. KELLEHER: Do you think that goes back to how you are portrayed in the media? DOGRU: Probably, yeah. Probably. Right now is much better, as I said. Internet is much better. Because the years I came here, uh… 1990, there wasn’t much internet at that time. I mean we didn’t have, we had email and stuff but internet was totally different thing. I mean we didn’t have that kind of thing, information. At that time on TV there were special channel about the religion. Sometimes I remember in front of that channel, sit down and cry. Because of what they were saying about Islam. And I was thinking, not because they were saying, and I was thinking… people who doesn’t know listen this one and they are really thinking, Islam is this. It’s such a different knowledge. My goodness. How could they say it, but they were saying it. But right now I’m happy because, eh, generation like you, they found millions of them. And they can pick. They can decide. KELLEHER: There’s a TV show now on TLC, , called Muslims in America. Do you know that? I haven’t been able to watch it. DOGRU: How is it? I mean is it good? Negative or positive? KELLEHER: I think it’s… I think its main point; I read a synopsis about it is. DOGRU: I don’t have cable so… Page 19 �KELLEHER: I think its main point is to highlight, is education, to educate people. That they’re not, like they are hans, like you said. And at least this is what I’ve gained. Just from my little bit of reading I’ve done and watching the previews for it but… you know that they are people too and just living their lives. And that they’re treated differently just for living like all the rest of us. That’s my understanding. DOGRU: It is changing though. We have a lot of hope for you guys. Young generation and your kids. KELLEHER: Are you able to interact with, uh, other Muslims here in your community through the Foundation and through…? DOGRU: Through my Foundation. Most of my Foundation people are in Lansing. I keep Lansing very often to meet them in some kind of activities to join and everything. And at the same time there’s a very nice, uh, group of Muslims here. Uh, international from many, many different countries. They are Americans, they are Malaysians, there are Turkish, (laughs), there are some other ethnic groups but they come together sometimes. Yes I join them many, many times. Not very often because we are so busy and school. Whenever I have time. Let’s say that way. I go and join them. Especially in the holidays. We get together to celebrate the holidays. So in that case, yeah. I know them. But not every day, every night like, uh, not every week. Everybody’s working. KELLEHER: Well… I can’t think of any other questions, can you? Do you have any questions you can think of? CANCEALOSE: Nope. Not that I can think of. KELLEHER: Thank you so much! END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5e944f4f1f1de1fd0969b22f37c7dd2.mp3 b61b24e9b109f1a4d4b446dcd7cb873b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Dogru_Filiz Title A name given to the resource Filiz Dogru audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dogru, Filiz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kelleher, Allison Ramirez, Ray Johnsen, Lukas Cangealos, Jaci Description An account of the resource Filiz Dogru was born in Turkey, came to the United States in 1990, and settled in West Michigan in August 2003. He is a professor at Grand Valley State University and an active member of the Niagara foundation and the Turkish American Michigan society. He discusses how he never felt different until moving to West Michigan, although the Grand Rapids area is improving on diversity. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/06daf1c677eb3e3a4938ded815fb5fdf.pdf bd37c91983eff174cd80762af392dc3e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Gamal Gasim Interviewers: Gagan Singh Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/23/2012 Biography and Description Gamal Gasim, assistant professor of Middle East Studies and Political Science, earned his PhD in political science from Texas Tech. He teaches Introduction to Middle East Studies, Middle East politics, and comparative politics. Before Grand Valley, he taught at Texas Tech, University of Wisconsin-Madison during the summers of 2006 and 2007, and at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Beloit College during the summers of 2008 and 2009 respectively. He discusses how people who do not know anything about Islam or Muslims discriminate against them, and how the media plays a negative role in society in America. Transcript GAGAN: So. Well first of all I would like to know some basic information about you. Like, where you’re from... GASIM: Yemen, I’m from Yemen. But, I was born and raised in Sudan. GAGAN: Ok. GASIM: Then I moved back to Yemen. I spend all of my vacations in Sudan. And then, when I finished my undergraduate and ....Do you want to close the door so...(A LOT OF BACKGROUND NOISE) So, I was raised in Sudan I received all of my education until I finished my undergraduate at the University of Hartford (??), went back to Yemen and then I went to Malaysia and did my first Master’s degree there in Malaysia. I went back to Yemen and I work- I worked two years, then I came back, I came, to the U.S. I did my second Master’s degree and my Doctorate and I joined Grand Valley almost three years ago. GAGAN: Oh, so right after you finished yourGASIM: Yes, yes. Actually before I finished, one year before I finished. GAGAN: Oh okay. GASIM: I finished in 2010, and I joined Grand Valley in 2009. Page 1 �GAGAN: Okay. GASIM: As assistant professor (LISTEN TO AGAIN @ 1:10) Silence GAGAN: So, where did you say you did your doctorate? GASIM: Texas. Texas Tech. GAGAN: Texas? Oh, okay. So then you moved to Michigan right after? GASIM: My Master’s was in Kansas and then I moved to Texas and then I came to Michigan. GAGAN: Oh, yes. You’ve been travelling all over. GASIM: Yeah, and I also work in Wisconsin and I work in Illinois during the summer. University of Wisconsin- Madison, University of (???) College of (??) in Wisconsin and University of Illinois- UrbanaChampaign. I taught two years here and two years there and during the summers. GAGAN: What do you do at the Madison, the school of Madison? Kansas? School of Madison? GASIM: Kansas University has a school of (Medicine/Madison??). Kansas State, Kansas State University, they don’t have a School of Medicine GAGAN: Oh okay. Pause So I’d like to know, like, since this is a diversity class and our interview is based on that, my topic I chose is like, after 9/11, and actually even before, like the differences. I’ve noticed. But, I would like to know, like, what you have noticed. GASIM: Since I came here after September 11, immediately. In, I think, 2002. On a personal level, all my life in America on academic campuses and universities. Dealing with highly educated people. So, I don’t see it really that much personal. I...maybe sometimes a few things outside, but not that much. In the beginning, I see tight security screaming for us in the airports and stuff like that. Now, in the last 3 or 4 years, I don’t know if they removed me from the list or not but I don’t see it that much. I don’t see it that much. So. Personal. But yes, of course. ...especially in Arabian/Muslim American communities they feel that now that they became, they moved from what we call, they were like...before September 11 they were invisible. Like many other minorities. Okay? ...American eyes and very invisible in the public discourse. They were invisible in discussions and suddenly they moved from this invisibility to hypervisibility. And they came to be regarded as the ‘other’. GAGAN: They stuck out, like right after that. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: They started noticing- Page 2 �GASIM: Yes, yes. GAGAN: “Oh they’re brown. They’re not Americans”. GASIM: (Not sure what he’s saying) And other groups too. Like Muslims, being considered to be..(Can’t figure this part out) GAGAN: Yeah, like seek(??)...yeah, seeks(??). Yeah, that’s who I am. And I’ve noticed, like we don’t wear turbans, but my dad’s friends wear turbans. So, because they wear turbans they thought they were Muslims. GASIM: Some of them think that, unfortunately. Because... GAGAN: Yeah, but it isn’t right, even if they were Muslims. GASIM: Yes, yes. GAGAN: Wearing, they… GASIM: But, I think this is like guilded by far association, like, because of the resemblance of the Taliban’s, or something like that. And it’s just also the ignorance of people sometimes. GAGAN: Yeah. Silence And I’ve noticed that, too, myself. That sometimes, if you-if people know about you, if you have close friends, they know about you. They’re more, what? Educated. GASIM: Yes! GAGAN: But, if there’s people who don’t have like Muslim friends, Indian friends, seek (?) friends...they won’t know the difference. GASIM: Absolutely. And studies showed that those who are Muslim have more federal views about Salam (?) and Muslim GAGAN: Yeah. GASIM: (…) than those who don’t have friends, yes. (...) GAGAN: Yeah, I was reading, or it was a, news? Or a show on-in PR, and they were talking about after 9/11 how Muslims were being treated. But, people that had friends, like white people who had friMuslim friends, they favorited them. They thought they were the nicest people. But, people that didn’t know anything about Islam or Muslim people, they basically hated them. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: They thought they were ‘bad’. Page 3 �GASIM: Yes. Absolutely. GAGAN: So, they’re not educated about… GASIM: Yes. Silence GAGAN: What else do you feel like could change, should be changed or how can people be educated more? GASIM: America has this long tradition of isolationism. Ok? And I think it’s so deep rooted in the culture. For example, I teach classes about issues in political politics. And the first of the semester what I do, I always show pictures or photos of Kim Kardashian and I let the class talk about her. They know almost everything about her. And then another picture of Lindsay Lohan, and then a, Snooki, and I let the class talk like 15 minutes about these 3 people. they know almost who their husbands, boyfriends, what they do, when they went to jail, all this kind of information. And then I will show a picture of the British Prime Minister. GAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: And nobody knows anything about him. GAGAN: Yeah. GASIM: So, basically, America’s for a long time been isolated here, even until of course September 11 happened and all (…) like, Bill Harper or like that, then they think that, okay well what happened in maybe Afghanistan or the Middle East might affect them here, too. So, that’s a big issue. Hopefully, education might help a little bit. This is why schools like Grand Valley requires you to take courses like yours. Diversity, global diversity, in order to educate the students about understanding diversity and other cultures. So, that is, that is, helpfulness of education. building more programs like this would help. the media, I’m not sure. I’m not sure that that could help. But, the U.S in general, moves toward more, I mean after…the demographic make-up in the country is going to be- change in the coming 50 years or 40 years. So that might force people to basically stand out and come to close contact with different ethnic groups. I mean in the long run. Maybe I’m optimistic. Brief silence GAGAN: But do you like, you mentioned, the media. You said that won’t help much. Why do you feel that? GASIM: the medi—the role of the media, I mean what they, I mean. Deep sigh I don’t know. I mean, of course, sometimes the media can play a role in what you call the normalization of certain ideologies, or the acceptance of a specific minorities life. For example, now many shows about gay couples, for example, okay? Trying to let the public at least, accept that reunion. In that area, that works very nice. (?) But, that impact would take a very long time and I don’t know if there is really, if the Page 4 �media is playing a very significant, constructive roles in this areas. I’m not sure about that. I’m not an expert in media, but this course sometimes shows the news and media outlets that focus on news and important news sometimes is not healthy. like Fox news or others and some do, some do a decent job. But, in general, (…………………) GAGAN: Have you noticed the difference between media here and media from different countries? GAGAN: Like, in the U.S, it’s just what they kind of want you to know, information. But, if you listen to BBC, they actually tell you a little more information about what’s going on in the U.S. and outside. Which sometimes, I feel that they kind of hide some stuff here. GASIM: Yeah that comes by us by omission. U.S. of course, has a long tradition of reporting about different countries and BBC has what I would consider, so far, a credible source for information for many countries. Like there is of course differences between reporting and commenting on the news ? so the BBC is doing a good job at reporting on what happened and, and, and reaching out to many people. And what they report, I don’t think they report from the British point of view. But American media tends to report from American prospective and, and basically what, what helps sometimes a political and (…..). And most of the (…) newspapers and media are controlled by conservative and reporters tend to be liberal. And like for example, some newspapers owned by conservatives, on current issues and they tend to be sometimes conservative, but in social issues they tend to be liberal because that is what most reporters are liberal. But, yes, I mean, they don’t have that, of course that long tradition like the BBC, for example. And sometimes people here like, to the right wing are so upset about, they’re disappointed about what you call the, the BBC, the PBS, for example. They think that they worry (……). So, I think that is, could be dangerous because the PBS to some extent, in my understanding is, similar to the BBC. public funded type of media. But, the BBC of course has that tradition and that respecting differences in Africa and the Middle East. And now of course we see new media coming from developing countries reversing the flow of information from North to South. Like in (...) which is challenging the Western dominance of media. Of information. GAGAN: So like, you mentioned earlier like at the airport security was a little more strict/is more strict for us, like, do you, when you go there or when you’re at the airport, do you feel like upset or angry? GASIM: No, I tend to be relaxed and smiling. Because otherwise I, I will, I fly a lot. I fly a lot when I came here for conferences. That’s like 3 or 4 times a year, at least. And, and I decided always to be smiling. These people are doing their job powerfully. And, and, and after all it’s for my safety. But, I remember that in 2002 they used to have microphones and this loud speaker. And they would always, they normally have this phrase, like they are going to select some people randomly. GAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: And always I was selected randomly. [Laughs] GASIM: So, so that was then. I think from 2002 to 2004...Things changed I think when Bush was reelected. So then before his election you see all this kind of media, terrorist alerts. And Americans were constant attack of fear, there was like another September 11 coming and this. But suddenly after he was elected again... Page 5 �GAGAN: it slowed. (??) GASIM: Yeah I mean you hear that these colors and this . And, and I remember until 2004 all this abundance...used to talk about how they are safe and no major attack...and I was wondering if Obama would say the same thing. Like now, since now 4 years since Obama is now and no major attack in the U.S. So, it is interesting to see the things. GAGAN: Yep, [haha]. So do you feel like discriminated a--at all? At that? Like... GASIM: I mean I am not sure. I, of course, it is difficult to, basically, know the intent, ? GAGAN: If they are doing their job, but the way they treat you? The way they talk sometimes? Do you feelGASIM: of course they are not like, I mean at that time. Now, it is different from 2005 to now I don’t, I don’t really see that. many times they pass out additional screening. Many times. Rarely I was stopped actually. I see sometimes worried people being chased (laughs) and-and which is, I feel sorry for them, but at the same time I’m happy that it’s not me, ? So that has changed a lot. From 2002 to 2004 and 5, it was...One time I remember in particularGAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: I miss a flight and then I have-I had a connection and I was going to a conference in New York. GAGAN: Mhmm GASIM: And in Kansas City, I remember I pass security and I was waiting and waiting because I missed my flight. And Kansas International Airport, Kansas City International Airport is not that big. So not so many people around and I think I was sitting for like 2-3 hours and suddenly a security agent came to me and asked me “Sir, I want to check your documents”. Even though I was just waiting for my flight. And if it were someone else he or she might be upset “Why?” “I’m not passing security, I already did that and I’m here waiting for my-” . And he asked me questions about where is my flight and how-why I’m waiting longer here. GAGAN: Suspecting you. GASIM: Yeah, so basically I show her my documents and I was fine. That happened to me in Kansas--the three incidents happened in Kansas City. One also, one--one time I was going from Kansas City to Manhattan where, Kansas, taking a small flight, where I did my second master. And there was a woman, American-Indian woman, from India. And she was selected and I was selected. The only, we are on a small flight, like maybe, 12 people? GAGAN: Oh and two brown people? [Laughs] GASIM: Yeah, so, she was selected and even though we came, we had already been screened from New York and we went through this process of, this screening. And we had our connection just in Kansas City, going to Manhattan. I mean there is no reason for us to, there is no security reason...it is just a Page 6 �connection! And actually in the gate there is security agents and they said from TSA and the man said, “I’m going to select people from random”. They used to test them like that. And then they choose her and they choose me. And she was extremely angry. And she threw the bag to them, like that, “You wanna take this? This is here for you”. And I was really surprised by her behavior. She’s American so she knows her rights. And I’m not American I’m (...) Anything can happen, anything can happen to me. Even though I was (...). So she was extremely angry, but I decided for a long time, by that time, not to let that affect me, as much. If I be angry. And actually, I remember the man, the security agent, he was very calm with this woman. he did not react angrily. Maybe they know that they are wrong, that what they do is wrong, but the woman has a right because there is no harm...and no need for this. GAGAN: Yeah, they shouldn’t. No need for violence. GASIM: Yeah. No need for her to be subject to screening. Cause she already passed it, she came from New York and just, in the waiting area going--taking another flight you don’t do that. That’s unheard of. GAGAN: Well, it’s kind of like you feel--don’t you feel a little weird when there’s other people already watching you and it’s only you or the Indian lady? GASIM: No, no. I mean myself—myself I...because usually if someone has a problem with me it is not my problem, it’s his problem. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: And that doesn’t make me feel bad. Ok? I mean if someone is racist to me, or makes a racist comment--I remember one time I was, during having my, when I was doing my doctorate degree at University of Texas I was going (........) my meal, my meal there. And then a homeless white woman stopped me and asked me for money. I think she was maybe drunk, alcohol or something. I don’t have cash so I say can I buy a meal for them, but I don’t have cash. And I say to her, I don’t have money for you, I’m sorry. And she asks me if I’m a terrorist. [Pauses] And I was laughing because look at she. I was a doctorate student here (laughs) I’m paying my bills, I’m contributing, I’m teaching my own classes and you are a homeless woman here and not only begging for money to use it for drugs but begging me and thinking you are better than me and you call me a terrorist. And she followed me actually, I almost feel like this woman is going to cause some trouble. And-and I wasn’t rewarded because how people can take any kind of racket. So I went there and she followed me into the Burger King and I think they are used to her because they let us in and I told the cashier, I said, just to be like, “This woman is following me”. And the woman, because I did not respond negatively to her and the way she took that like out of weakness or something because I’m so (…) I don’t want to create unnecessary problems for myself. Not because I’m afraid of her . I just told the woman that this and she really, the cashier, she was African-American and she threatened her and she said “You either leave this property or I will call the police for you”. And the woman left. Another friend of mine, we used to work in Yemen together and he came, an exchange student like me from (…) student. And he came to Missouri. And his first two days in the U.S in Missouri (laughs) and he stayed in a motel looking for apartment, the school is starting next week and then he found an address and being near an area so he was just walking looking for this place to rent and he felt like he got lost because like sometimes you are disorientated after long flights. So he asked, like in our country, you ask anybody about directions. Page 7 �So he asked a man like do this street or where this is and the man said “You just wait here and I’ll show you, just wait”. And the man went and called the cops for him. [Pauses] So the man was waiting for this guy to help him. He wasn’t (…). And the police were nearby, they came, dispatch. And when they say, they ask him and they had all his documents with him, his passport and everything. And when they realized that he was an exchange student they felt very sorry, they told him that there are some people who they are not really that smart and they were all nice to him. The man wasn’t really shocked that he was just asking about an address and then they told him the man suspected that you are a terrorist or something. So, so things like this could happen. There are many, many examples of this happening. I remember one of the very funniest and saddest examples. I was told by someone I trust very much, he told me. There was a young Muslim couple, the woman had a scarf. And one time the neighbor came, an old lady, to visit them. The man was not there, the woman welcomed that old lady. And, she asked her a very strange question, she said, “Can I check your rooms? Can I see your rooms?” Usually as a guest you don’t do that. (laughs) GAGAN: Yeah, you don’t do that. GASIM: Yeah, so she—she lets her. Which indicates a nice woman; she lets her see the rooms. And after she checks all of the rooms, the kids’ rooms, and everything, the kitchen, everything, and she said, “Actually to be honest with you, I had a vision that you and your husband hijack an airplane and crash into my house. [Pause] And I called the FBI about that”. [Laughs] GAGAN: She really called the FBI?? GASIM: Yeah, yeah. So she was so concerned about that dream and because she saw this neighbor, this Muslim couple, and the police I think or the FBI, they told her, “We don’t act on people’s dreams”. So basically and she told him she’s really worried. She’s really thinking these people are preparing something like that in their homes, building something in her dream and that they hijack an airplane and . Attack and destroy her home. So they advise her why don’t you go visit them by yourself and see? (laughs) Gamal and Gagan talking at same time, laughing GASIM: And she followed their basically advice and she came to see for herself. If, fortunately that her dream did not come true. [Laughs] GAGAN: That’s weird though. GASIM: Yes, I was told this. So, things can be to that extreme where it’s easy to label people terrorist. Page 8 �GAGAN: Yeah, people usually…My dad owns a store and once in a while we get one customer who’s, if we refuse him, refuse to sell, like if they’re already a little drunk or something, we refuse to sell. And then they actually start getting all racist, mean. And one guy was like, “You terrorists and this that”. I feel real angry. GASIM: Yes, but your father I’m sure is calm. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: Yeah, cause if you feel angry every time then you are not helping yourself. You are helping them, yes. GAGAN: Yeah, I mean. I really understand how everyone feels. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: Then I also noticed, like like most of the students, like we look at younger kids, like my age, Indian kids, Arab kids, or any other foreign kids they don’t really get in trouble here. They’ll be like, the good kids. GASIM: Yes and many (….). They—they’re from hard-working families, they came, they built their lives from scratch. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: And life, life in America for immigrants even if you are the kid because Americans don’t accept degrees from other countries. So it is very hard to see all of them, they have very impressive stories to tell about how they struggled to pay their bills and how they struggled to send their kids to college and, and their kids are hard-working kids and loyal to their families and they have these family values. So, this of course, yes. This America was built by these immigrants who are hardworking people. Yes. GAGAN: That’s what I was getting at but still that, by the color they think, oh their bad even though. the while kids are getting into trouble here, more fights and stuff but still its because they are brown, they are bad. GASIM: Yes of course we don't want to be like white kids are bad GAGAN: But we do GASIM: But I see your point that most of the immigrant kids are hard working, their parents motivate them to do well to go to better school and be a engineer and you want to be a doctor, right? GAGAN: Yeah GASIM: Do you want to be a doctor? GAGAN: Hmm yeah, I want. yeah I want to, yea that’s what I'm doing. GASIM: All my international students, all my like students coming from international background, like they want to be doctors. Some want to be in medical science, nothing them wants to be go for political Page 9 �science for media because that’s very important. If you go to hospitals, most of them are basically doctors are either foreign born or came from families, where their parents are also foreign born. GAGAN: Yup, and I have noticed that… GASIM: Yes yes, let me just check, if you don’t mind, the because I have class at three, if you don’t mind? GAGAN: No problem GASIM: If you don’t mind? (Prof. Gasim logins into his computer to check his schedule and his emails before class, as he says this the start sound of the computer could be heard also). GASIM: Oh OK. (here he says something which was very clear to hear). GAGAN: We still got some time? GASIM: I just, my class is jus like ten minutes, and I need just like aaaahhh aaahhh. GAGAN: Ten minutes? GASIM: How many questions do you have left? GAGAN: Just question about like, changes in the community you in. hmmmm GASIM: Actually I’m not in community, just fine. GAGAN: I mean.. GASIM: Not like American, living alone [hahahaha] GAGAN: Even here GASIM: Yeah hmmm GAGAN: You probably notice everyone working with you but like if you go to a grocery store or something like you were talking about the airport situation, like person infront of you is, im gonna use a White person again, and they are really nice talking to them but when its your turn, they just say ok its this much( talking about the cashier, not talking to him and just asking him to pay the total amount) GASIM: Hmmm, to be honest with you, no, its me personal. Sometimes it’s a, in some cases aaa, one time I went to the bank and I had unfortunate incident in a bank, just recently, jus a small bank I have an account, and I felt the lady there was lied to me. It is a long story, so I went out and I was really angry. Then I call, I called the a the bank and she answered, she told me she was manager. I know she wasn’t the manager, so I insisted the then I talk to the higher level headquarters nationally u know. It’s a national bank, a bank that has many branches nationwide and I told them what I need is two things, basically needed a apology from that branch because basically I feel there is discrimination and number two, I don’t want this to be happen to other persons. I know my rights and I can fight my rights but I don’t someone whos just know not much communication or have the time to follow up these things. And they really apologized, the manager of that bank called me the morning and apologized, the director of that region called me and apologized and I get a formal letter of an apology. Page 10 �GAGAN: That’s good GASIM: That is one thing sometimes here even like, one time here in department, I was here a faculty, there was a student, basically I was had to talk to her supervisor because of my accent or something I don’t know I’m the fucklty( sorry that’s how he pronounced it)I keeping let that happen. I keeping her( I did not understand what he said at this moment but it was only a sentence). I told her, I was very angry and I talk to her like I was very firm and wanted to make sure that there was nothing. Then she and another man I talk to him, he try to defend her, on a different lecture and left a message, message to the supervisor; I wanna talk to the head otherwise I going to rise this to the highest level in the school. Next morning, six o’clock in the morning, I check my voice message from home here and I found a message from da, the man in the beginning was defense about the girl, I told him look, if you still want to be defensive here, what I need is you to realize that this is wrong and to ask, to apologize for it. GAGAN: Yea GASIM: That’s what I want, I’m not hmmm if he feels that hmmm there is nothing wrong here, there is no point to continue the conversation. I’m go to fear until he realizes which side is wrong and after I said that he immediately apologized, more than once. So, you need to, because once they apologized they are wrong. GAGAN: They realized, yeah. GASIM: If they were not wrong, they would never apologize. So, that is I think, I mean this happened very few that I can tell but I feel sorry for people who were in… GAGAN: People that don’t English, cant explain or argue their side. GASIM: Yes yes, it doesn’t mean if you don’t speak English, it doesn’t me that you are not intelligent person. Sometimes, unfortunately people think that because you don’t speak their language, you are not smart or intelligent. GAGAN: Yeah yup. GASIM: And if your not cautions if you don’t speak the language, you like. Even they can make fun of you, those who don’t speak their language enough. And my life I spent my life, international student all my life. GAGAN: Yeah, you been traveling everywhere. GASIM: And always as a minority. So, I never lived as a majority [hahaha] in a place. So, that is, then you get a strong sense of what is justice, what is right and what is important. GAGAN: that’s how you become stronger. GASIM: Yes and you educate people about it, you get people like because they take us sometimes for granted. GAGAN: So, basically to end like most of this, some of discrimination is by educating everyone because lot of people that are racist, they are not educated about other people. Page 11 �GASIM: Sometimes with education, sometimes people know but they still insisted to act racist because of selfish economic interest, selfish political rights. So education is yes but you need to let people know they are wrong, you need to stand up for what is right and not just wait until it to happen to us. GAGAN: Yup GASIM: So if it happens to someone else, GAGAN: Yea we need to take a stand GASIM: Yes, I remember jus two weeks ago, I was in McDonalds. I was getting grading my papers and had my coffee. There was a homeless man, he was very nice and friendly and sometimes I talk to him. I saw him and I asked him if he if he if he wants me to buy him a lunch. And he said yea I can buy, then I went and ordered and then I left. Then they put the order in my table, they thought it was my order, so when I came he was not there, so I moved all the order in his place. Then I walk, like to have a break and I came back again. And then the manager came, she was a very nice young woman, asked me if I got my order, maybe they realized that there is not. I said, oh yeah and then to clarify things to her, I assumed that maybe the man took my order, so I’m saying no I bought this for him. Because she say me pay for it. GAGAN: Then she saw that the plate or tray with the other guy. GASIM: Yes, I mean he was not there when she came and asked me. I told her no, I bought this for him I just. I thought I clarified enough for her and then she left. Then also I walk again, the man came, finishing was eating. Then there was another woman, friend of his wife, his ex-wife, she saw him and she also bought him a salad like a lunch. I think the man was well before he became homeless. This homeless people also came from good background. Doesn’t mean they were born homeless. GAGAN: Yeah, yup. Some people go bank, bankrupt, so they don’t have any other choice. GASIM: Absolutely, this can happen to any of us in this country. So, anyways, the man came back. The man was little bit upset and so I ask him why, he ask can I talk to you? Because I was busy working. I said yes. He told me the manage came and insulted him basically talking why you beg people for food. (he says something here which wasn’t very clear, just one sentence not much). I was really offended by that, I tell him that no you never ask me for food, I never saw, you never bother anybody, you never beg for food. And he was dressed nicely and I said that is all, I’m going to talk to her. GAGAN: Hmm GASIM: So I went and I call her. I said, look I told her what happened, I told you, you asked me if I bought him this meal. This man never asked me for, I I said I think you really hurt his feelings. Yes, hes homeless but he is a decent human being, he has feelings and I think you owe him an apology. You need to go apologize to him. And she said she will do it but she was busy. After few minutes she came there, I was sitting, she came very nicely, she sat with him and said, I want to tell you something that I’m really sorry. The man moved by this, then she told him something, she made him laugh, I don’t know what they both talk about. Then the man look at me and said you talk to her and I said yes. But, my point here is so even the man was white, we need to stand up for justice. GAGAN: There is other kinds of discrimination not just because your from a different country, there is also like poor and rich.. Page 12 �GASIM: Economic bases, religious bases, ethnic basses, there is also based on color, based on linguistics, based on ethnic, color also comes into this gender bases, sexual orientation. I mean we might not approve peoples way of life but that is in this country at least. Everyone should have his dignity as a human being. Whatever background they came from and we need to stand up for that. GAGAN: Yup, definitely, we just did a 24 hour no judging exercise. It didn’t go so well for most people I think. I tried so hard not to judge anyone, so I think it’s a good exercise. I think more people should be involved in this, its hard. You start thinking why am I doing this, why is it so hard for me to not like judge someone. GASIM: I learned my lesson a lot not to judge people. Sometimes things can happen to us like, and when you live in different countries you see, you live that. i really have just, I need to do a few things. You can stop me if you need anything, another time we can continue our discussion anytime. GAGAN: Okay, that’s fine, no problem, thank you. GASIM: I hope this was helpful for what you’re doing? GAGAN: Yes this was, thank you very much. END OF INTERVIEW Page 13 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05ac84ef3aa33330f9bea130eacd3932.mp3 d121eb090b52d5436a419548de1c3aa1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Gasim_Gamal Title A name given to the resource Gamal Gasim audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gasim, Gamal Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Singh, Gagan Description An account of the resource Gamal Gasim, assistant professor of Middle East Studies and Political Science, earned his PhD in political science from Texas Tech. He teaches Introduction to Middle East Studies, Middle East politics, and comparative politics. Before Grand Valley, he taught at Texas Tech, University of Wisconsin-Madison during the summers of 2006 and 2007, and at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Beloit College during the summers of 2008 and 2009 respectively. He discusses how people who do not know anything about Islam or Muslims discriminate against them, and how the media plays a negative role in society in America. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9d38a8694eadcfdd3a71956170a72db6.pdf 069d503a407a6097aadcd49cce868c95 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Helen Grahuis Interviewers: Alissa Cohen, Hannah Frazer, Bryce Byker and Eli Bale Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/16/2012 Biography and Description Helen Grahius was born and raised in Haren, Groningen, Netherlands. Later in life, she moved to West Michigan to be with her siblings. She discusses her life in the Netherlands and in the United States. Transcript INTERVIEWER: Okay, so we’re recording it now the first thing I gotta do is read you this oral release form. So it’s “I, Helen Grashuis. hereby agree to participate in aninterview in connection with the oral history project known as “Speaking Out: WesternMichigan’s Civil Rights Histories” at Grand Valley State University. I understand thatthe purpose of this project is to collect audio-recorded oral histories, as well as selectedrelated documentary materials such as photographs and manuscripts, from thoseknowledgeable about civil rights and civil rights activism in Western Michigan with thegoal of preserving these materials and making them available for teaching and research.This may include publication in print, multimedia programs such as radio or television. and the WWW, among others.” So, basically we can use the interview you’re giving us. We can like write a paper about it and we can maybe put some of it on the The internet and ... which we probably won’t because it’s just a small thing, but that would be pretty cool (Everyone laughs) GRAHUIS: Now, do I have to have experience? INTERVIEWER: No. You don’t have to have experience! GRAHUIS: Okay! ‘Cause I don’t! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: (Laughing) Neither do we! Okay number two: I understand that I may be identified by name, subject to my consent. I may also be identified by name in any transcript (whether verbatim or edited) of such interview, subject to my consent. If I choose to remain anonymous, which you can, I know that audio-recordings of my interview will be closed to use, and my name will not appear in the transcript or reference to any material contained in the interview. I know that in the case of choosing to remain anonymous, my interview will only be identified by an internal ‘Speaking Out” project tracking number. So, you’ll just have a number. Page 1 �GRAHUIS: Oh. INTERVIEWER: And you won’t have a name I understand that the interview will take approximately two hours ... or one hour — GRAHUIS: Yeah! ‘Cause I have to go to bible study! INTERVIEWER: ... yeah, (oral release form continued) and that I can withdraw from the project without prejudice prior to the execution and delivery of this release form. So you can still back out at any time. In the event — GRAHUIS: Oh! Let’s go Monique! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: In the event that I withdraw from the interview, any recordings make of the interview will be either given to me or destroyed, and no transcript will be made of the interview. I understand that a photograph of me may be taken or borrowed for duplication, and that if I withdraw from the project, the photograph will be given to me and any copies made by the project destroyed. Number four: I understand that, upon completion of the interview, and subject to all the other terms and conditions of this agreement, GVSU shall own the copyright to this work and will be able to use it in any manner it chooses including but not limited to use by researchers and students in presentations and publications, but that I shall be given a perpetual permissive license to use my contribution in any manner or any medium as long as I notify GVSU prior to such use. Wow. Number five, there’s only a few more GRAHUIS: Oh, okay. INTERVIEWER: I understand that any restrictions as to use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. So, you can tell us to leave parts out if you want number six: I understand that upon the completion of this interview and signing this release, the recordings, photographs, and one copy of the transcript will be kept in Grand Valley State University Libraries’ Special Collections in Allendale, Michigan. So, all of these interviews, we’re keeping them all in one place. So, all the students in our class and other classes are interviewing people also like professors and other people they know and it will all be kept in one place — all those different interviews. GRAHUIS: Oh! INTERVIEWER: Number seven: If I have questions about the research project or procedures, I know that I can contact Dr. Melanie Shell-Weiss in the Department of Liberal Studies, and it tells all her contact information. Okay, so now — do you guys have a pen? — we need you to sign this... are you okay with us identifying you? Is that okay? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Awesome. So ... you just need to sign right here. Page 2 �GRAHUIS: My name? INTERVIEWER: Your name, the address and the date, and your phone number. GRAHUIS: The date today is 16, right? INTERVIEWER: Yup, march 16. GRAHUIS: 3, 16. INTERVIEWER: 12. Monique (Helen’s daughter): Yes, my dad really did wear these. (She pulls out a pair of old wooden shoes) INTERVIEWER: Oh my goodness, that’s so cool. Can I see this? What size are these? (Trying the shoes on) GRAHUIS: I don’t know... BALE: You’ll probably fit into them INTERVIEWER: I don’t know... BALE: Actually, they may be a little to big — small, I mean to big. INTERVIEWER: To big? BALE: Yeah, your feet are way to big. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Ouch. Aw man, I would have to get used to these. I bought a pair when I went there... what size shoe do you wear? 13’s. And those are to big for you? BALE: Do they fit you? INTERVIEWER: No. Not even close. What, they’re way to big? Yeah. BALE: Yeah, they’re to big. INTERVIEWER: I wear 10’s. BALE: Oh wow. GRAHUIS: The interviewee’s me. INTERVIEWER: Do you agree to be identified by name? Oh, and, you don’t wish to remain anonymous. And Helen”... BALE: These are speculaas (pulling out a box of cookies). Have you ever had these? INTERVIEWER: Ooh! GRAHUIS: (signing her name) Grashuis. Page 3 �BALE: They’re like ginger cookies. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Help yourself. Do you want one, mom? GRAHUIS: No thanks. INTERVIEWER: Alright. I’m just going to write my name for the thing. GRAHUIS: Speculaas. INTERVIEWER: Thank you. BALE: (Pulling out a picture frame) Oh, and this is my dad wearing his wooden shoes. INTERVIEWER: Oh! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: Wow, that’s awesome. GRAHUIS: Yup. That’s my husband. He died three years ago. INTERVIEWER: Oh really. Okay, so. Did you guys know how we want to start this? Or do we just want to wing it? Well, we have to introduce ourselves. Okay. No that’s not me. (Looking at a picture) I’m not that cute. (Everyone laughs) GRAHUIS: You are! You’ve changed since I’ve last seen you! INTERVIEWER: Look at that... (looking at pictures). GRAHUIS: For the better! INTERVIEWER: Thank you! So we need to introduce ourselves. And say who we’re interviewing. Oh yeah, that’s right! It’s in the sample question packet, I think you’ve got it. That’s right here. This is kind ofjust an outline... BALE: Here I’ll take that. INTERVIEWER: Okay, sweet. I’ve got what we have to say right in here. So, I’m just going to follow what this says may name is Eli Bale. And we have Bryce Byker, Hannah Frazier. Allisa Cohen. We are here on Friday, March the third, at 3:16 — the 16th GRAHUIS: 16 honey. INTERVIEWER: At quarter after 3 pm with Mrs. Helen Grashuis in Kirkhoff on Grand Valley State University’s campus in Allendale, Michigan. We are here about to talk about Mrs. Grashuis’s memories of her childhood and anything else she can remember about her life in western Michigan. Okay. And we also have Monique Bale, who’s here to help us conduct the interview. Page 4 �BALE: Helen’s daughter. GRAHUIS: Oldest daughter. INTERVIEWER: Okay, so, how’d you guys want to start this? Okay, so where were you born exactly? GRAHUIS: I was born in Haren, Groningen. Groningen is the northern part of Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. Very cool. GRAHUIS: And my husband was born in Amsterdam. INTERVIEWER: Oh. How do you spell Groningen? GRAHUIS: Groningen G-r-o-n-i-n-g-e-n. Groningen. INTERVIEWER: Okay, very good. Thank you. Okay, so tell us a little about your family. GRAHUIS: My family — my mom and dad there were nine children in my family. . five boys and four girls. So yeah. Wonderful family. INTERVIEWER: Wait a second for this to go by. GRAHUIS: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And how was that experience growing up with such a large family? GRAHUIS: Real wonderful. INTERVIEWER: You liked it? GRAHUIS: Yeah, we had wonderful parents. INTERVIEWER: Are you close — were you close with your siblings? GRAHUIS: Yes. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Was it typical in that area or time to have that amount of people in a family? GRAHUIS: Yes, yeah. My dad had four brothers and they all had big families. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: We had nine kids. The other ones had, the other one had six girls — INTERVIEWER: Oh my goodness. GRAHUIS: (chucklesj and there were, was another one who had six boys. And so — INTERVIEWER: Jeez. GRAHUIS: Big! Yeah! Those — those times they all had big families. Page 5 �INTERVIEWER: Yeah, wow. It sounds like it. GRAHUIS: Yeah, yeah. We got along real well. INTERVIEWER: What did your parents do for work? What did your dad do for work? GRAHUIS: My dad had his own company, and he, with his brothers, and he selled cement and all that building materials. Yeah, it went real well. INTERVIEWER: What about your mother? Was she just a stay at home mom? GRAHUIS: My mom, ach! Yeah, my mom was a stay at home mom. INTERVIEWER: With that may kids! GRAHUIS: Washing clothes and ... yup. INTERVIEWER: What did a typical day look like for you guys? Like, in like the school year. Like, was it all different grades? Like, in the Netherlands did they have, like, a middle school and a high school where you guys were all separated up into? GRAHUIS: the school I went to the distances were so small. So we walked to school there was one road that go into, from where we were to the, the schools, the Christian school. INTERVIEWER: So it was a pretty small town? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Quite small, and *ahem*, excuse me. a lot of Dutch people. In that, time, there were a lot of people that came from different countries. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And do you remember anything about your school. GRAHUIS: Well, we had to work hard! (Laughter) INTERVIEWER: Yuuuup, I can relate to that. You said there were people from a lot of different countries so, would you say that everyone was excepting of all the different types of people that were there? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Yeah, uh-huh. And I think mostly they came from the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Yeah. So,— BALE: But mom, you said too, that your community was really tight-nit. You knew all the families. GRAHUIS: Yes. Page 6 �BALE: You had a milkman who came down the street with his horse-cart. those families. The Bucker the Baker’s man. GRAHUIS: He would go through the street with his little red INTERVIEWER: - like cart? GRAHUIS: Cart! Yup, that he pushed. Yeah, it was wonderful time we had, a wonderful time. BALE: And because your family was so big, you didn’t have a whole lot of money. GRAHUIS: Nope. BALE: And it was a home — you slept with your sisters right? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Two sisters. GRAHUIS: Yup. BALE: And it was very, and in the winter time it was very cold. I remember you telling stories of when you would wake up in the morning and ice would be on your sheets. That’s how cold it was. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: Wow! BALE: And you slept together to keep warm. GRAHUIS: To keep warm. BALE: And you didn’t have very many clothes. GRAHUIS: That’s right. BALE: And, I was just asking her on the way over here. Did you wear wooden shoes when you were growing up? And she did. She wore wooden shoes all through elementary school. She said, I said, so how do your feet keep warm. She said they had leather slippers that they would put inside their wooden shoes and they would walk. GRAHUIS: Socks of course. BALE: And they would walk through the snow and snow would accumulate on their wooden shoes. INTERVIEWER: Oh my gosh, wow. Kind of like ice skating. Exactly. BALE: And she said when she got to be about, what? Maybe ten. You got your first pair of leather shoes. That was a big deal. Page 7 �GRAHUIS: Oh yeah! We were so proud! We could go to church with our leather shoes we would just walk in the neighborhood and just look at it. Just look at it! INTERVIEWER: Ah, that’s great. Yeah, what about — GRAHUIS: I have such wonderful memories of my youth. INTERVIEWER: Tell us some of those memories. GRAHUIS: Huh? INTERVIEWER: Tell us some of your favorite memories. If you have any. GRAHUIS: (chuckles) Favorite — favorite memories! There was a lot of— there was a lot of land there. So, grass and ditches and we would have a long pole and jump across those ditches and guess what? We would fall in! So beautiful. BALE: So when the canals froze over — INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. Skating! BALE: Yeah, skating for miles and miles. GRAHUIS: Oh yes, we skated for miles — INTERVIEWER: So fun GRAHUIS: That’s, oh that was wonderful. Wonderful. And we had, we had lanterns and we lived, my family lived on, the haven ... haven ... how do you say haven? BALE: Like a little lake. Like a little pond or a little lake. GRAHUIS: Where the boats would come in. INTERVIEWER: Okay, did you live — BALE: Like a harbor! GRAHUIS: Harbor. INTERVIEWER: Did you live — BALE: Like a harbor. INTERVIEWER: - near the ocean? GRAHUIS: Huh? INTERVIEWER: Did you live near the ocean? GRAHUIS: No, no. Page 8 �INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Opa did. Opa is grandpa. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: And I’m oma. INTERVIEWER: (chuckles) Yup, my oma. I’ve heard you call her that a couple times. Yeah, they were confused when I said that the first time! They were like, What does that mean?” (Laughter) GRAHUIS: (laughing) Yeah! BALE: Yeah, so you lived on the harbor. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Yeah. GRAHUIS: And then my dad, my dad would, put us on his back, and we would tie our skates on then we could go on his back and he would drop us off on the harbor. There was ice — well, of course there was ice, otherwise he wouldn’t throw us in! And then at night they would put the lights on these... we call it. INTERVIEWER: Like the lamps? GRAHUIS: Yeah! Yes, yes. Otherwise we would break our neck. But then we would skate from the harbor to the canal. We would have to go under bridges. INTERVIEWER: Did you ever have races? GRAHUIS: What? INTERVIEWER: Did you ever have races on the canals? Like skating races? GRAHUIS: Not that much on the canals. But there were also lakes and that is where they mostly had the races INTERVIEWER: Now I know Opa was quite a big sailor. Did you sail at all when you were growing up? Like, did you go out on the water in boats? GRAHUIS: My husband? INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I know Opa was a big sailor but did you do any sailing or fishing out on the water? GRAHUIS: Fishing! Oh we did a lot of fishing. INTERVIEWER: When did you meet your husband? GRAHUIS: I met my husband in the sixties? No fifties Page 9 �INTERVIEWER: Ok so quite a bit after your childhood. And did you meet him there or when you came to the United States? GRAHUIS: No I met him here. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow! GRAHUIS: Yeah, I met him in church. He saw me sitting in church. Because I had and aunt and uncle that were in Kalamazoo, they immigrated to Kalamazoo, and they had ten kids. So I would go to church with them. And then Hank, my husbands name is Hank, his, let me see, where am I? Oh Yes, they were members of the same church. It was a Christian reformed church in Kalamazoo. I was living in the YWCA. So he found that out and then that sunday night after church, I was in my room and somebody said,” Somebody is here for you”. So I said “Okay”. I had no idea that it was him. So there was Hank INTERVIEWER: Wow, was it love at first sight? GRAHUIS: Yeah, so that is how we met. BALE: But to put a big picture on it, my dad had a family often right? GRAHUIS: Eight. BALE: Yeah, eight kids. But ten all together. They immigrated when he was sixteen. He was sixteen. GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: So they came over on a big boat, when he was sixteen. And then my mom immigrated when she was twenty five and she came with her brother here to America. GRAHUIS: Yes, my brother was a year younger than I am. BALE: Right. So dad was here already in kalamazoo. GRAHUIS: Yes but I also had uncle John, my brother John, was living here already. And my sister Evelin. They were living here. So we came here from the Netherlands, visiting them. We could stay with them in their home. It was quite something. I was a little homesick at first but thats it. INTERVIEWER: What made up your mind about moving here? What was your motivation for moving here? GRAHUIS: I wanted to see what the United States was like. INTERVIEWER: How old were you when you moved? GRAHUIS: Twenty two. INTERVIEWER: Twenty two? GRAHUIS: I was twenty two years old when I came here. Page 10 �INTERVIEWER: What did you imagine it would be like? GRAHUIS: . INTERVIEWER: Better than It actually was? GRAHUIS: Yeah, I love this country. I am so glad I came here. Of coarse I met my husband here. INTERVIEWER: Did you come over on a boat? GRAHUIS: I flew. INTERVIEWER: Okay cool. GRAHUIS: And my dad paid for the ticket. INTERVIEWER: Oh so You didn’t go with your family? GRAHUIS: Yes my brother. I was twenty two. BALE: Was that Clause? GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: And John was here already. GRAHUIS: Yes, John was here. John was married. And Eveline was here. BALE: Okay, so two siblings were here and you came over with another brother. GRAHUIS: Yep. BALE: So thats four of the nine kids came over to the states. GRAHUIS: And my mom was very sad that so many came to the united states. BALE: Are the other five still there? GRAHUIS: Yeah they have been here but they would rather stay in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Okay, so what else do you remember from the time you were ten years old to the time you were twenty two? Like when exactly was the nazi occupation? GRAHUIS: Oh I was afraid you were going to say something about that. It was in the forties. INTERVIEWER: How old were you when that happened? GRAHUIS: I was In my thirties. I was thirty eight when it was over. BALE: No, how old where you when the war was going on? You were young. GRAHUIS: Well I was born in 1937. Page 11 �BALE: Ok so you were young. You were six. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember anything about that? Do you remember your lifestyle changing? GRAHUIS: Yes, yes. Because we were living in a home and right next to us was a garage where all the germans were in. And so when all the Americans or the English came over, they would shoot at that garage. But also, we were also bombarded because our home was so close to that garage. So if my brother had stayed that night, we were eating supper, my dad was in church work and so he was not home, my mom was only there with all the kids, and if he would have stayed in that chair he would have been killed. Because the bullet went right through the seat. BALE: So did you here the sirens or did you hear the plans come in? GRAHUIS: We heard the plans come in. BALE: So what they did is they went down into the cellar. Everybody left the table and went into the cellar. GRAHUIS: Yes, I fell into the potato salad. Thats why I have such a potato head. INTERVIEWER: So it seems that you were living in fear for a while then, right? GRAHUIS: Yes, we were. INTERVIEWER: And how long did that go on? GRAHUIS: I think it started in forty two and in forty five it was over. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember your diet changing or your lifestyle changing because you didn’t have enough money? GRAHUIS: Well food was hard to get. INTERVIEWER: I remember you saying something about rations. Did you guys have to do that at all? GRAHUIS: Oh yes, definitely. And we had a big family so would have a lot of sugar and there were some families that could not get it. So we would exchange sugar for what they had. Potatoes or whatever. So that was quite a life. INTERVIEWER: But it sounds like money wasn’t, I mean its a struggle without money, but it sounds like it wasn’t really an issue. Like you say you still loved your memories of growing up and everything. GRAHUIS: Yes, I did. INTERVIEWER: So you still had fun even though the Nazis were around. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and I heard how with the bikes they would take the tires. Did that happen to you guys? Page 12 �GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. INTERVIEWER: Why did they do that? GRAHUIS: because they could use the rubber. They were rubber tires and they could use it. INTERVIEWER: So they took it right off your bikes to use it? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Wow. So you had to clatter around on metal wheels for a while? GRAHUIS: Yeah exactly. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember, I mean obviously there was a war going on, but were there any tragedies that hit close to home or to you with friends or anything? GRAHUIS: Yes. Friends, their fathers were transported someplace else. I had a friend and her father was a doctor and he was killed. And of coarse the jews, we had jews in our town. They were picked up. INTERVIEWER: Did you know anyone that was helping them at all? GRAHUIS: Yes, Hanks father was a police man so he hid a lot ofjewish people. INTERVIEWER: That’s really cool. Did he ever get caught? GRAHUIS: No, he did not get caught. And Hank would, on his bike, go to the farmers and pick up milk for the family. INTERVIEWER: What were the nazi soldiers like? Where they mean or did they trouble you guys at all? GRAHUIS: I can not remember much of that. INTERVIEWER: Okay, what did you do for fun around that time? In your free time with your friends and stuff? I know you had a tight knit community and stuff, what did you guys do for fun? GRAHUIS: A lot of things. A lot of little things. INTERVIEWER: Did you guys have any sports you liked to play? I know Opa enjoyed playing soccer. GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Did you guys have anything like that or did you guys just do little hangouts and stuff? GRAHUIS: Bicycling, and of coarse in the winter skating. INTERVIEWER: And did you guys, I don not know if this is like an American thing but did you guys have like snowball fights and build snowmen? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. Page 13 �INTERVIEWER: Okay, I guess a worldwide thing. GRAHUIS: Yep when you have snow you make a snowman. INTERVIEWER: What about Christmas time? Did you have any traditions you used to do? Like, I know you used to put shoes by the door or something like that? GRAHUIS: Yeah I put something in it. Yep we sure did. INTERVIEWER: Now around Christmas time did you have your relatives come over or was it just your family? BALE: What was Christmas like? Christmas day. GRAHUIS: Oh we would decorate the whole room and it was nice. BALE: Did you exchange presents? GRAHUIS: Yes we did. Little gifts. very little gifts because we did not have much money as kids because we did not work. INTERVIEWER: No ipods? GRAHUIS: Nope. INTERVIEWER: Where there any traditions you brought from to the United States from back in the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: Our Dutch cooking. Stumput. INTERVIEWER: What is that? I have never heard of it. GRAHUIS: You put potatoes, you cook potatoes and carrots and you mash them all up. The kids love it. BALE: Potatoes, carrots, onions. GRAHUIS: And onions. INTERVIEWER: Where did that meal come from? Do you remember how it originated into the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: No, i think its more a dutch meal. Interviewer. Okay, because I remember someone, i do not remember who it was, told me that, when they did not have a lot of ingredients and stuff during the war and they had just potatoes, onions and carrots, they were like lets just throw it all into a pot, mash it up and see what come out. And that was stumpot. And Tm glad they did. Its really good. BALE: So your diet was mainly potatoes. very little meat because meat was expensive. GRAHUIS: Oh yeah, we did not eat much meat at all. It as very expensive. BALE: And then the fish. Page 14 �GRAHUIS: fish yeah. BALE: Yes, and dutch cheese. INTERVIEWER: Now did you ever go on to college? Helen: No I did not go to college. I went to high school. INTERVIEWER: Okay, do you have any specific memories from your hight school? GRAHUIS: Yeah we had some things that we did together as a class. We did everything on bicycles. We would go swimming and it was quite a ways away. And we did a lot of biking. So one those days you did not see very many people. INTERVIEWER: And what about jobs? Did you get ajob when you graduated high school? GRAHUIS: No. I did not work. BALE: But you did say you had ajob in Haden that you had to bike to. And that was after hight school. You were in your twenties. Didm’t you have a secretarial job? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. When I was older. BALE: Before you immigrated over. What was that job? GRAHUIS: Ill have to think, what did I do? I worked at an office. INTERVIEWER: Okay BALE: You worked there everyday. Haden was how far from Cronighan? INTERVIEWER: What is that? GRAHUIS: Stumput. INTERVIEWER: I’ve never heard of that. INTERVIEWER: Me Either. GRAHUIS: You have potatoes. You cook potatoes, and carrots, and-uh then you mash them all up. INTERVIEWER: Ooo INTERVIEWER: That sounds good. GRAHUIS: And- the kids love it. BALE: And onions. Potatoes, carrots and onions. GRAHUIS: And onions. Page 15 �INTERVIEWER: And where did that meal come from, like, where did that meal come from? Do you remember, like, how it originated in the Netherlands? (Pause) INTERVIEWER: Okay GRAHUIS: I think its more Dutch. The DutchINTERVIEWER: Okay because I remember someone, I don’t remember who it was, told me that they didn’t, when they didn’t have, like a lot of ingredients and stuff during the war, like and they had just potatoes, onions, and carrots, they were like lets throw it all into a pot, mash it up, and see what comes out. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Uh-huh INTERVIEWER: So they had stumput, GRAHUIS: Uh-huh BALE: Yeah INTERVIEWER: And I’m glad they did. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: It’s really good! GRAHUIS: Uh-huh BALE: So your diet was mainly potatoes, very little meat because meat was expensive. GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. We didn’t eat much meat at all. (Pause) It was very expensive. INTERVIEWER: Um-hm BALE: And the fish. GRAHUIS: Fish. Yeah. BALE: And cheese. GRAHUIS: And cheese. That’s cheese. INTERVIEWER: Um-hm. (Pause) Now did you go to college? GRAHUIS: No. I did not go to college. I went to high school. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-.huh. INTERVIEWER: Do you have any specific memories from your high school? GRAHUIS: Yeah. We had some things that we did together as a class. Page 16 �INTERVIEWER: Mmm GRAHUIS: we would We did everything on bicycles. INTERVIEWER: Mmmmmm GRAHUIS: . We would go to go swimming, andINTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: . It was quite a ways away, and, yeah. We did a lot of a lot of biking, biking. INTERVIEWER: Mm GRAHUIS: Yeah. So in those days you didn’t see very many big people. BALE: (Laugh) INTERVIEWER: Yeah! (Laugh) And what about jobs? Did you get a job when you graduated high school? GRAHUIS: No. I did not work. BALE: But you did say you had a job. In, GRAHUIS: Holland. BALE: that you had to bike to. When, that was after high school though. When you were in your twenties. (Pause) Didn’t you have a secretarial job or ajob that you, I remember you saying that you GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. When I was older. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Yeah. Before you immigrated over. INTERVIEWER: Before you immigrated. Yeah. That’s, yeah. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: What was that job? GRAHUIS: let me think what did I do? (Pause) I worked at an office. INTERVIEWER: Okay BALE: Yup. You’d bike there everyday. GRAHUIS: Um-hm BALE: Howden was how far from Kronian (32:14)? GRAHUIS: five kilometers. Page 17 �BALE: Okay. INTERVIEWER: Hm, Okay. GRAHUIS: And I would go there in the morning, and then for lunch I would come home, and then at one o’clock I would go back. INTERVIEWER: Oh, wow. GRAHUIS: So, it’s a lot of biking. INTERVIEWER: That is a lot. Yeah. A couple miles in everyday. BALE: And you lived at home? GRAHUIS: I lived at home. Yeah. BALE: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And your family got along pretty well together, all of you kids? GRAHUIS: Eh, yeah. Hey, when you’re kids you have to fight once and a while. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I know what that’s like. BALE: I remember GRAHUIS: We’re not perfect. BALE: Yeah. I remember you recently telling me this too that your grandfather lived with you. Your grandfather lived with you. INTERVIEWER: Oh. GRAHUIS: My Mom’s father. BALE: Right, and he didn’t have his own room cuz there were no rooms left over. He would sleep in the, on the couch. GRAHUIS: Yeah on the couch. BALE: On the couch in the dinning room, living room. GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: Okay, and that just, he was part of the family. GRAHUIS: Yeah. That’s where he died. BALE: And that’s where he died. GRAHUIS: Yup. Page 18 �BALE: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yup. Um-hm. That’s right. (Pause) Yup. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember anything about the churches in the Netherlands, like the church you went to? GRAHUIS: Well they’re not like here. Um, in those days we didn’t have our groups INTERVIEWER: Like bible study and? GRAHUIS: Yes. Exactly. Um-hm. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: So it was more for the older people. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Do they have an organ in the church? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. Beautiful organ. BALE: Beautiful organ. GRAHUIS: Um-hm. BALE: Yup. INTERVIEWER: That’s cool. Now about your immigration, do you guys have any other questions about Holland? INTERVIEWER: No. I think we’ve heard a lot. INTERVIEWER: Okay was it uncommon for people to rnove to the United States in the Netherlands, or was it pretty common for people to just head over here? GRAHUIS: It was, yeah. There was a certain time period where a lot of people came to the United States. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Or Canada. INTERVIEWER: Or Canada. INTERVIEWER: And was it just because they wanted to, or was there a reason they were leaving the Netherlands? Page 19 �GRAHUIS: it was, (Pause) it was well, we have big families. You know? Like my aunt and uncle. They immigrated because it wasn’t (Pause) they could feed them here. INTERVIEWER: So a better life? GRAHUIS: Yeah. A better life. INTERVIEWER: Opportunities. GRAHUIS: A much better life especially also going to school. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. GRAHUIS: . They would go to college here or- . So, (Pause) yup. A lot of big families immigrated. Yup. This is a great country. INTERVIEWER: Now, when you came to the U.S. so you boarded a plane from the Netherlands, and where did you... GRAHUIS: Amsterdam. Yup. INTERVIEWER: From Amsterdam. Where did you arrive? Where was your destination in the U.S.? Did you land in like New York or (Pause) where did you land on the flight? GRAHUIS: I think we landed where did we go to? BALE: Probably Chicago. GRAHUIS: Oh! Oh no. Detroit yeah, Detroit. INTERVIEWER: Was your intention always to come to Michigan? GRAHUIS: Yeah because I had a sister and a brother here. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. GRAHUIS: Um-hm. INTERVIEWER: So where did you go? Where did you start living When you got to the U.S.? GRAHUIS: Michigan. INTERVIEWER: Michigan. Like where INTERVIEWER: What city? INTERVIEWER: Like Kalamazoo or? GRAHUIS: Kalamazoo. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and that was, you lived with your brother then? Page 20 �GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: John and Ida. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What was that like? GRAHUIS: John was my oldest brother. INTERVIEWER: Like did you find ajob right away or did you just? GRAHUIS: I also worked here in an office. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-huh, and when did I start driving school bus? BALE: That was way later. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah that was way later. BALE: Didn’t you work at a department store? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: In like, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Didn’t you even model some cloths? Did you model some cloths or? GRAHUIS: Yeah I did. I did. BALE: We should have brought a picture of it. INTERVIEWER: Yeah! I would have loved to see those! BALE: You were very nice looking. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Yeah BALE: Oh well. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: We don’t need to talk about that. (Laugh) Stop. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: So then, was it quite recent after you moved to the U.S. that you met Opa? Page 21 �GRAHUIS: Yes. Uh-huh. Yup. INTERVIEWER: Okay. So was that like a few years after afterwards or? GRAHUIS: He was, oh gosh, he was in, he was in the military? (Pause) Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: I was, let’s see now. Opa was twenty-five when I, when we married, and I was twenty-four. No. He was twenty-four; I was twenty-five. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: So INTERVIEWER: Oh. So you met each other and you got married quite soon after that then. GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-huh. INTERVIEWER: So love at first sight kind of thing? GRAHUIS: Yup. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Right when you walked up to the door? (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: so after you got married what did you guys do after that, like did you move somewhere, or did you get a house. GRAHUIS: Yeah. We got a house, and we had a house full of kids. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Okay. Tell us about that. INTERVIEWER: How many kids do you have? GRAHUIS: Three daughters. INTERVIEWER: Three daughters? GRAHUIS: -him. Monique is the oldest, and then we have Michelle, a year later, and then we have Melissa. BALE: A year later. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Wow! GRAHUIS: So Melissa lives in Australia. Page 22 �INTERVIEWER: Wow. GRAHUIS: And she’s coming here with her husband and their two children in a couple weeks. Right? INTERVIEWER: Mrnm. Yup. I’m looking forward to that. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: To visit or to move? GRAHUIS: To visit. INTERVIEWER: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And what about that family experience? How did that differ from your family experience in the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: I don’t know. What do you mean with that? INTERVIEWER: Well, I mean just, what was your family experience like here I guess? Did you INTERVIEWER: With your husband and your children. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: How did it differ from how you grew up in the Netherlands? INTERVIEWER: Did you have a better lifestyle here would you say or? BALE: Did you have a better lifestyle here? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Definitely. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Oh definitely. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS:huh. Yeah. Yup. INTERVIEWER: And was it ever, I mean, hard with money and anything or? GRAHUIS: No. My husband had a very good job. He went to the Kalamazoo college there. INTERVIEWER: Oh. Yeah. BALE: It’s Western Michigan. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. Page 23 �GRAHUIS: Yeah, and then he got his masters degree in Illinois, Northern Illinois University, and yeah. He had a good job. We had a good life. Yeah, and then Melissa went to Calvin right? INTERVIEWER: Calvin. Oh Yeah. BALE: Um-hrn. GRAHUIS: And you went to Calvin. BALE: Um-hm. GRAHUIS: And Michelle went to Farry, Farris. Farris! BALE: Um-hm. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: So, did you, so you got married, and you lived in Kalamazoo GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: For a few years. Did you live there, now how long did you live in Kalamazoo? GRAHUIS: How long did we live in Kalamazoo INTERVIEWER: Like was it a long time, like did you have all three of your daughters in Kalamazoo? GRAHUIS: No. They were born in Chicago. INTERVIEWER: Okay. INTERVIEWER: Oh really? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Oh we moved all over the place. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. INTERVIEWER: Tell us a little bit about that, like where did you guys, what were the different places you guys lived? GRAHUIS: Okay. That’s up to her. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: She knows better. BALE: So you lived in Michigan for a little bit after you were married. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: And then you moved down to Chicago, where Dad got his masters, and then you started having us. We lived in Chicago for, I remember, about five years ‘cuz when I was kindergarten age we moved back up to Grand Haven, Michigan. Page 24 �INTERVIEWER: Oh. Okay. BALE: And that’s where we settled for, probably until I was in junior high, high school. GRAHUIS: -him BALE: So that’s where we started school, all three of us, and lived in Grand Haven. Yeah, and then we we lived in Grand Haven, and-uh we lived not too far from your sister, Evelyn, and another brother, Klaus, and another brother, John. So all three of the families, all four of the families were in Grand Haven. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: And we were very close with the families. We all grew up together. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Lots of cousins. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: And that was good. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: That was a very good, good growing up. INTERVIEWER: A good few years? BALE: Yup, and when we got together we... everybody would be speaking Dutch. It was all, everything was in Dutch, and our INTERVIEWER: You too Mom? INTERVIEWER: So yeah. You know Dutch as well? BALE: Well I can understand it. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. I didn’t know that. BALE: Yeah we can understand it. GRAHUIS: Melissa’s good at it. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: We didn’t necessarily converse or speak, but it was all Dutch, and Dutch food. during the holidays, our Christrnas especially, we would always look forward to... they make like a specialty. Yeah a Dutch specialty is oliebollen. So it’s INTERVIEWER: Oliebollen, mmrnmm. Page 25 �BALE: Kind of a daylong process of making the dough and rising the the yeast rising it GRAHUIS: Yup. BALE: And it was all made out in the garage. It was GRAHUIS: So you don’t get all that smell in your home. BALE: Yup, and this is very traditional. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: So we would have oliebollen. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. So you guys took home some traditions from back there? BALE: Oh yeah! GRAHUIS: You Dutch. You know that. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I know a lot about the food and stuff, but, and I love the food, but I haven’t heard of that before. I’ve never heard of that before, so. BALE: Oh oliebollen? INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I’ve never heard of that. BALE: Oh very traditional. INTERVIEWER: It’s good. It’s good too. GRAHUIS: Yeah. You fry them in oil. You have a pan full of oil, and you dump the stuff INTERVIEWER: The dough. GRAHUIS: Yeah, the dough. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Now did you, is that when you had your school bus job? GRAHUIS: When did I start INTERVIEWER: In Grand Haven. BALE: You started driving school oh boy. That wasn’t in Georgia. I would say GRAHUIS: No that was in Kalama, in- that was in Grand Haven. BALE: In Grand Haven. Page 26 �GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: Okay. GRAHUIS:huh. INTERVIEWER: When was GRAHUIS: And I was the best bus driver. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: In Grand Haven. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Yeah. The kids loved you. INTERVIEWER: I’m sure. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. GRAHUIS: Although, I could also be INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I heard you had to like, I remember you telling us storied about some of the kids on your bus, like some of them were very unruly, and GRAHUIS: Oh yah. They can be. INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah. So GRAHUIS: Children are children. INTERVIEWER: What age group did you, was it elementary, middle school? GRAHUIS: All age. INTERVIEWER: Oh all? GRAHUIS: Yup. Kindergarteners I had a kindergarten run in the afternoon, at noon, so I liked it, and now I get a little pension. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: So where did you, you said you moved to Georgia? INTERVIEWER: Yeah where does Georgia fall into this? BALE: -hrn. INTERVIEWER: What other places did you move? BALE: We were very sad about that. INTERVIEWER: After Grand Haven? Okay. Page 27 �BALE: We lived in Grand Haven for, after Chicago, five years, we lived in Grand Haven for up until I was about, I would say, tenth grade, and Michelle ninth, and Melissa eighth, and then we, so it was very hard to leave a tight nit family group. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: . INTERVIEWER: That’s a tough time to leave. BALE: Um-hm. I was pretty devastated. So Dad got ajob down in near Atlanta, which is Roswell, Georgia. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. BALE: And so we left the family up in Grand Haven. We moved down to Georgia where Dad worked for a company. We were there for two years living in the south. INTERVIEWER: Oh gees. BALE: Yeah, and then INTERVIEWER: So you graduated there. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: No. I didn’t. INTERVIEWER: Oh no? BALE: Two years later, actually a year... two years later. We lived down there for two years I think. INTERVIEWER: -hm. BALE: And then we moved up to New York. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. You guys have been all over. BALE: And we moved up to New York, and we lived there on Long Island for a year. GRAHUIS: Yup. Long Island. That’s right. INTERVIEWER: Wow. INTERVIEWER: Was this all for his work? BALE: So back up. I think GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Georgia was my ninth grade. I moved in ninth grade to Georgia. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Page 28 �BALE: Ninth and tenth. GRAHUIS: Okay. BALE: Moved up to Long Island for a year, and that was very different ‘cuz we were blonde Dutch people. INTERVIEWER: Yeah! BALE: Living in GRAHUIS: She had boyfriends all over. (Laughs) BALE: We lived in an Italian; I mean it was all Italian. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: And, so those were our friends. INTERVIEWER: Just for the interviews sake, did you guys appreciate all the diversity that was around you or did you ever feel, or was there any sense of segregation ever? Like that’s just one of the questions we were just wondering about with the interviews we’re doing. GRAHUIS: No, no. INTERVIEWER: No sense of segregation? Okay. BALE: I don’t think so. GRAHUIS: No, not at all. INTERVIEWER: Because the U.S. was a very diverse time, very diverse time back then. GRAHUIS: No, I never felt that. INTERVIEWER: And your family, you’ve always been accepting of other races and stuff? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Yeah, I mean we grew up in a very, I mean it was a very Dutch, Western Michigan, so I don’t think. INTERVIEWER: Still is. BALE: We were among our own people. There was not much in Western Michigan diverse wise. In Grand Haven, Kalamazoo, it was mainly Dutch. INTERVIEWER: What about Chicago? BALE: Chicago was a little different. I don’t, I was young so I don’t really remember. in the apartment complex, I don’t remember a whole lot of diversity there. No. Page 29 �INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: But now like Monique, for instance, adopted an American, BALE: African American. GRAHUIS: African American boy. INTERVIEWER: Sean. GRAHUIS: Sean. Sean is our, Eli’s brother. INTERVIEWER: He’s my bro. GRAHUIS: And now she’s adopting two children of Congo. And she’s getting those two children, they are sisters. And she’s getting them in May. INTERVIEWER: That’s great, that’s awesome. That’s really cool. That’s’ really exciting. BALE: So here’s 100% Dutch, 100% Dutch. GRAHUIS: The blondies and the blackies. BALE: Lots of color, lots of color in our family. So yeah, we’ve never felt segregated. INTERVIEWER: So is there any specific memories that either of you have in those three, those five places that you lived? Like because you just told us about the history, Chicago, Georgia, New York, Netherlands, and Grand Haven. Do you have any specific memories of just like, a story or anything? Can you wrap your brain around? GRAHUIS: You probably do being in school. BALE: Specific stories? GRAHUIS: Didn’t you have a little problem in the Netherlands in school? BALE: yeah, I think some of my best memories were in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Some of my best memories were there because we were in a completely different culture. I mean the Netherlands, but we were actually living in Holland. And we were old enough to travel around, so, because I was eighteen we traveled, when you’re in the Netherlands and there’s countries all around you, it’s like traveling to the next state or the next town, because I mean Belgium was, Germany was a few hours, right across the way. We would vacation, we vacationed in Italy and we went to Germany with our youth group. And for a class trip we went to London. And then GRAHUIS: So you would, oh excuse me. Then you would live with other families, didn’t you? BALE: No, not in the Netherlands, not in my high school years. Page 30 �GRAHUIS: Oh okay, oh. BALE: Yeah, so we had the freedom of travelling so it was wonderful, it was wonderful experiencing different culture in my high school years. But yeah, I think those are some of the best memories. And for a specific story, I don’t remember Eli, I’m sorry. INTERVIEWER: Maybe later you can tell me. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay so, you said you moved back to Grand Haven? BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: and then you went off to college and then I’m assuming Aunt Mitchie and Aunt Lizzie went off to college several years after that. So then when then they all left, it was just you and Opa? Now, is that about the time you got a bus driving job? Like I remember BALE: I think during our college years you were bus driving. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Mhm. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And you must have drove buses for a while then because I can still remember when you GRAHUIS: I did, I did. I drove bus for twenty years. INTERVIEWER: Oh my gosh. Wow, that’s a long time. GRAHUIS: Get up at five o’clock in the morning and I pick all those kids up at home. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. GRAHUIS: Oh, especially in the winter time. INTERVIEWER: Was it a fun job though? GRAHUIS: Oh, huh? INTERVIEWER: Was it fun? GRAHUIS: Yeah, I liked it, I enjoyed it. BALE: I think that an important thing for this interview is I a very big thing about being Dutch, and a very big thing that has, from the Dutch culture, I think ingrained in each one of the kids is being hard working and being thrifty. I think both you and dad were very hard working and you instilled that in us. And also spending wisely, being thrifty. This is all from the Dutch culture, because there was not much when you were growing up, there was not much to go around. You just made do with what you had. And you also, Page 31 �you all pulled together, you all had your chores. I remember you each having your chores. Because you had to rely on each other to do the work that had to be done. So that kind of passes on to the generations. Passing on down now to Eli. Your very hard working, aren’t you Eli? INTERVIEWER: Of course I am. So now you live in Grand Haven? GRAHUIS: I live in Grand Haven, yeah. INTERVIEWER: So what do you do now in Grand Haven, how do you spend your days? GRAHUIS: I lay on the couch. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Do you live by yourself? GRAHUIS: I live by myself, yeah. Yeah, my husband died in November ‘08. So yeah. I have, of course, I have three daughters and they moved away she lives in the U.P., Michelle lives in Saginaw, and Melissa lives in Australia. And so I don’t have very much, I have a brother John that was the first one to come here, and he lives in Kalamazoo. Then I have a brother Peter who lives in South Bend. And I have some brothers, two sisters. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And down in Kalamazoo there’s a little community of, that’s branched out from there, right? GRAHUIS: Lot’s of Dutch. INTERVIEWER: Lot’s of our family live down there still? GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: And also, when we were growing up, we took two trips; we took two family trips to the Netherlands. So we were, I think my first trip over to the Netherlands to visit Opa and Oma. which is her folks, was when I was seven, eight? So we would, we would spend, I don’t know how many weeks we were there, three weeks maybe, we would live in, we would vacation over in _____? and we would bike around in Holland and we would get to know the Dutch cousins and get to know the Dutch aunts and uncles. And it was only during those trips that we got to know our Dutch side. because otherwise we didn’t grow know them at all. INTERVIEWER: Except for the few Dutch family you had in Grand Haven? BALE: Over here, right. But our other part of the family was over in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: That was a major part of your family. You really got to experience a major part of your roots. BALE: Right, right. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. Page 32 �BALE: And our second trip, we took another trip, we took two trips, anyways those were wonderful, precious memories. INTERVIEWER: That’s really cool that you got to do that. GRAHUIS: And I took her and my middle daughter, I took them to Australia. INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah, that was recent. GRAHUIS: Last year, January, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah I can remember, just more recent years just all the times we would come to your house, like especially when the Yates were living in Cincinnati. I remember going to your house for Christmas and stuff and the whole family would be there. Go out to Penn Hill, camp in Big Rapids. Go there and yeah, I just remember going to Thanksgiving at your house and just coming down and visiting, going to church with you guys. GRAHUIS: See, those are all wonderful memories, yeah. INTERVIEWER: I remember mom, well I don’t remember you, I remember the video of you guys getting married in the backyard. That’s really fun. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What about big events like, in the news and stuff when you were in, after you moved to the U.S.. Do you remember, like, the Martin Luther King Jr. “I had a Dream” or do you remember all that stuff? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: Do you remember Kennedy being shot? GRAHUIS: Oh yes. Yes. I remember that one, because you were a baby, I was feeding you. And the radio, it said that the president had been killed. BALE: Any other big events? INTERVIEWER: Vietnam War, or? GRAHUIS: No I don’t remember much about that. BALE: Do you remember much about civil rights, mom? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: What was going on in Detroit? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: African Americans? Page 33 �GRAHUIS: I don’t, I’d have to think about it first. BALE: What music? GRAHUIS: Music? BALE: What kind of music were you INTERVIEWER: You love the organ music. BALE: Yeah, Opa was big into organ music. That was also another thing. GRAHUIS: Yeah, I love guitar music. INTERVIEWER: That’s good. GRAHUIS: That’s how he learned. INTERVIEWER: That’s one of the reasons. GRAHUIS: I have two guitars. BALE: We had an old, and this is another part of growing up Dutch, is Dad played the organ, and we had an old pump organ in our house, and he would, all the family would come over, he would pump the organ and we would all sing hymns around the organ. And that’s what we would do when we would all get together. Youd have coffee, or another big Dutch thing is drinks. INTERVIEWER: Wine. GRAHUIS: Glass of wine. BALE: Little glass of wine. GRAHUIS: Like we had last night. We don’t overdo it. Oh no, just a little bit. BALE: We would play the pump organ and we would all sing around the pump organ. People don’t do that anymore. INTERVIEWER: It’s kind of like the American the American idea of singing around the campfire with a guitar and stuff. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah GRAHUIS: Where’s my purse. I need to take my medication. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, my grandma really likes to do that, get around the piano or something and sing songs and stuff. BALE: Oh really? Page 34 �INTERVIEWER: Is your grandma Dutch? Yeah she is. Yeah. BALE: I think that was a big thing with the Dutch is that, and that’s what you did growing up, is that after church, you would go to either your uncles or your aunts and you would all get together for coffee. GRAHUIS: Yeah, we did. BALE: And we’d always have we’d always talk and you’d have cookies and yeah, just gathering and hanging out. INTERVIEWER: Exactly. BALE: And no computers. GRAHUIS: No, no computers. BALE: And the cousins would play together. GRAHUIS: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, good times. INTERVIEWER: Good food and good company. I said good food and good company. That’s great. GRAHUIS: Yeah. So, we should not forget that I have to go to my bible study. BALE: Yeah, she has a gathering to get to. INTERVIEWER: What time? It’s okay. BALE: Six o’clock I have to be at a restaurant. INTERVIEWER: Okay. We’ll make sure, we’ll make sure. Is there anything else you remember from, anything else, anything you want to share, about anything? Anything you want to be written about? Like we’re going to be writing a paper on this. Is there anything you want us to acknowledge? GRAHUIS: . BALE: Can I say something? I remember a very important event which I was able to go with you, was when I was at Calvin, I think it was at Calvin. or I was living in Grand Rapids going to school and you wanted to become a U.S. citizen. So I went down to, down to the courthouse, or I don’t remember, it was in Grand Rapids somewhere, and we went into a big room with many other folks from all different countries. We sat there, we went, we sat through an entire ceremony, and all the flags were represented, and then you receive your American citizenship. That was a really cool time. And you had to say the Pledge of Allegiance. It was really awesome. INTERVIEWER: Did your dad do that too? BALE: He did, but earlier. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Page 35 �BALE: I wasn’t around when dad became a citizen. GRAHUIS: No, dad went into the military. That’s, automatically how you become a citizen. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay, that makes sense. BALE: I also remember you did not graduate from, you never received your diploma from the Netherlands from high school. GRAHUIS: I got it when I came here. BALE: She went into America, you got your GED, you had to study, you had to take a test to get your high school diploma. I don’t know why you never graduated. INTERVIEWER: When did you get your diploma in high school? Were you alive, Mom? BALE: Oh yeah. Oh, I remember mom, I was in, I think I was in junior high or high school. I was in, yeah, you were studying for your GED because you wanted to graduate. INTERVIEWER: But you still had jobs and everything, you know? The difference between now and then. Now you have to go to college to get a job. It’s crazy. How was learning English? Was that difficult? GRAHUIS: Yeah, well I learned that in high school. We take, we learned. BALE: In the Netherlands. GRAHUIS: Yeah, we take German, French, English. All those. BALE: Italian? GRAHUIS: No, not Italian. BALE: Oh I thought you did. INTERVIEWER: So you know them all? GRAHUIS: Well French I don’t, I never kept up. I know German. I know of course English and Dutch. All those languages I studied. INTERVIEWER: That makes sense. So by the time you came to America, you were fluent in English? GRAHUIS: Well, I can’t say fluent. I did my best. INTERVIEWER: You could understand, Okay. Well that’s cool. GRAHUIS: When I came to this country I was living with my sister, and they would they would listen to the radio orthings I didn’t understand, hut you learn. INTERVIEWER: You put yourself in the environment and you kind of learn how it is. GRAHUIS: Yeah, yeah. Page 36 �INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. I think that’s good. Is there anything else you want to share? GRAHUIS: Not that I know of. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: We’ll have another meeting sometime. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. That’s the interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 37 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b10abc3d867c92b3a07cd428e0fe1569.mp3 2dd12b6b79bfc5f986c60c3971c2204d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Grahuis_Helen Title A name given to the resource Helen Grahuis audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grahuis, Helen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cohen, Alissa Frazer, Hannah Byker, Bryce Bale, Eli Description An account of the resource Helen Grahius was born and raised in Haren, Groningen, Netherlands. Later in life, she moved to West Michigan to be with her siblings. She discusses her life in the Netherlands and in the United States. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f21ace56fb55b08f2f26289e7195ff7.pdf f1f6379686ea07710856d139ff23c536 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Ivo Soljan Interviewers: Logan Knoper, Alyssa Hall, Tim O’Neil and Tierra Jackson Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/23/2012 Biography and Description Ivo Soljan compares and contrasts the different countries that he has lived in. Transcript O’NEIL: Ok, we just need you to say what your name is. It’s lvo Sol SOLJAN: Ivo (EE-VO). That’s how you pronounce that. O’NEIL: Oh, I’m sorry SOLJAN: That’s ok. That’s Ok. Some call me even “Evil”. Don’t do that. Ivo Soljan. O’NEIL: Ok, could you say that just once so we have a SOLJAN: Ivo Soljan O’NEIL: Alright. SOLJAN: OK. O’NEIL: So, could you give us, like, a basic biography; where you are from, how you got to West Michigan? SOLJAN: Yeah. Born about 85 years ago.{laughter} No. Born about sixty four, right now, an old guy. Came here to Grand Valley in 1991. So it’s been twenty years now. But I was in connection with Grand Valley even earlier than that because my university in Europe where I taught, and Grand Valley used to have a very fruitful exchange program. It was the University of Sarajevo in former Yugoslavia, in Bosnia. And it was established as one, probably the first exchange program between Grand Valley and some other university overseas. And in ‘75, 1975. So I participated in a number of activities the symposia every second year, either at Grand Valley or over there in Europe, and also there was an exchange of students here. So I was really quite engaged in that, so when there was a war which was kind of a serious war I needed a place to continue my life, and applied, and was invited to come here, and to be interviewed. {Iaughs} Page 1 �O’NEIL: {laughs} Yes. You mentioned overseas. Could you give us, like, a country? SOLJAN: The country, as I mentioned, the country is formerly Yugoslavia, which doesn’t exist any longer. It fell apart during that war because it was it was an artificially created country. Like Czechoslovakia, or a number of- or even the Soviet Union if you ward. it consisted of six republics, like six states in the United States. And, so it was a unified country, but it didn’t really function quite well. and there were very strong movements within the country to kind of, coming from different sides, to get independent and kind of break that united kind of somewhat like the American CMI War, and perhaps even in terms of if you compare that in terms of the number of the dead and the victims it’s pretty comparable. In Yugoslavia, about 200,000 people died and in America, about 600,000, but, if you compare the populations, it would be pretty much the same ratio. So that’s the country. And the city, as, I mentioned the city that I lived in, I wasn’t born there, but I taught there for 20 years, is the city of Sarajevo, which is often it often used to be mentioned at least when you were all toddlers because when the war was there the city was besieged for three and half years. It was really in very, very bad shape. A lot of people died. — O’NEIL: Logan, do you want toKNOPER: Well I mean we can just start little bit about the city you were born in and about your childhood over there, growing up. What was that like? SOLJAN: Mm-hm. Yeah. I was- I’m sorry I have a lot of stuff upstairs, but I couldn’t really prepare- The city I was born in is, it’s kind of a funny name in English, it’s called “Split”. but it’s not really Split, though I occasionally joke that I’m a Split personality. {laughs} But the thing is that it’s a Mediterranean city on the coast of thethe sea that is part of the Mediterranean and that sea is known as the Adriatic, Adriatic Sea. That’s the sea which is probably somewhat bigger than Lake Michigan. And that’s the sea where Venice is so that particular part. I was born there, virtually with my feet, you might say, in the sea. My father was a marine biologist. He led a significant marine biology institute there. So my first ten years of my life were really just- kind of swimming if you want. KNOPER: Yeah. SOLJAN: Yeah. For some reason, we moved to Sarajevo, which is inland, but it’s not very far inland. It’s probably about three hours drive. O’NEIL: Okone of the big buzzwords of the assignment: Identity. Is there any, like, specific things that you can think of about how moving to West Michigan has shaped your identity? SOLJAN: Yeah O’NEIL: I mean, your sense of humor seems very- relatable. {laughs} SOLJAN: {laughs} Thank you. Well, things, any change is a change, and initially it wasn’t easy because we, in that kind of panic, and it wasn’t just panic, it was actually well calculated. We went to holidays, basically, trying, hoping that that war would finally be stopped by the European powers in America, but it wasn’t completely for four years. So that, we basically left everything. All of our possessions, our Page 2 �assets- home, just name it. Our library, all our investments in the retirement funds and so on, just was wiped away. So, west Michigan, or rather Grand Valley I should say, has always been a nice place to us. Before coming here permenantly as a (?) scholar I spent a year in California, then a year here, and I was always very friendly with a lot of people around here among the administration and the professors. I taught english, in fact, in ‘89 and ‘90. I was very friendly with President Lubbers. I don’t know whether the name at all, but he used to be- he was our first president- oh, actually the second, but I mean the first, in that he was 32 years on the helm of Grand Valley. So it’s- in many ways it’s been a soft landing and it’s been a soft landing also becauseboth my wife and I are in English studies, so english really wasn’t a problem for us. it’s not like you find yourself suddenly on Mars Something wenot only we could – I mean, because of our qualifications would could actually teach (laughs) American students how to speak proper english. ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: So our english- our english used to be prominently British english. And some of that is still probably noticeable in my pronunciation, but I’ve been teaching for twenty years, so it’s been lost. Our children also spoke english and they liked it immediately It was fine. We knew- it was it wasn’t like falling from the moon. We lived in California one year before that and then Grand Valley another year. Then we went back home for just one and a half year. there were significant political things that were happening there we wanted to participate in that, and, it was realized that it was going to be much more painful than we expected. So we came here and Grand Valley, - from our first, we lived in Grand Haven. And it’s a great place too. It’s a small city, or rather “tn-city” as they call it. And found plenty of friends, very manageable. We lived- all our lives we’ve lived in big cities. I mean, Sarajevo is half a million or more than that and in other in London, in- just name it- but we like the- especially now when the children have gone. they got married and have families, so it’s easier. It’s kind of nice to live a rather simple life. If we need entertainment, it’s mostly in terms of music, opera, stuff like that. Or lectures. This area offers you plenty. It’s just amazing how much you have here. The colleges, there’s Aquinas and there’s Calvin and there’s Hope and there’s Grand Valley, you just, - plenty. So we don’t miss that, I mean that is something that is plentiful here and we enjoy that. There are plenty of opportunities. KNOPER: You mentioned you were, your dad was a marine biologist and you loved the water and stuff, so Grand Haven do you—? SOLJAN: -Oh yeah! Oh yeah! We often actually refer to the lake as “the sea.” “Oh, look at the sea today.” It’s kind of automatic. Oh yeah, it’s lovely actually We just like it, the- well, what we miss in fact is thekind of this smell of the salty sea. Otherwise it’s just lovely. Yeah, we enjoyed it. O’NEIL: You mentioned a couple kids? maybe — SOLJAN: Yeah. There are a couple kids, in fact well, they will be kids forever. (laughs) But the son isthirty, thirty one, and my daughter is thirty six. he lives in New York and he completed his studies here. It was half price. So why not? (laughs) ALL: (laugh) Page 3 �SOLJAN: He studied- he studied English and Spanish and ended up in film industry. he is really a smart guy and he elbowed his way into the film world. He is a producer in New York and kind of makes a big buck. He enjoys- his wife is fine. They have a little kid, little Allegra, who is a year and a llttle bit more now. Now the daughter is in the Hague and she is a very smart woman. She is a lawyer by profession. And she works for this international court for war crimes, in the Hague in the Netherlands. Her husband is Dutch too. And so, they have one kid, they have a little- little girl, little Nora and they are expecting a second one in May. So things are- they are well placed. They seem to be happy in their lives. But of course, kids are kids, as all too well. (laughs) O’NEIL: Just little details: were they born here or—? SOLJAN: No, no. No, we came here- I was nearly, I was forty three, four, something like that. They werethe son was eleven when we came here to stay. Although they were, as I mentioned, we were here before so when he first visited he was eight. But he was eleven when we came to stay and the and the daughter--. They had five years difference, so she was, well, sixteen. So she completed the final year of the senior year of high school here then went and did her studies at Massachusetts at a rather small college and went to NYU, New York University, to complete her legal studies. O’NEIL: Ok, so we’re going to bounce around a bit here SOLJAN: By the way I’ve never been on drugs. ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: -for the record. KNOPER: Oh well that question came later- (laughs) SOLJAN: I’m very healthy. O’NEIL: Have you lived anywhere else in the United States? I’m sorry if I missed that detail earlier. SOLJAN: Well I did mention it earlier- We lived in Irvine, California, which is kind of a broader, metropolitan L.A. and we lived there for a year. I was a Fuibright scholar doing my post-doctoral work. that was about twenty two years ago. I enjoyed that very much, that was very nice. But otherwise, no, no, we didn’t really. We kind of stuck here. I was traveling a lot all over America because I worked. I used to work during the summers for the US State Department and they- the assignment would usually be to take the European delegations for three week visits to America. So in that capacity, I was contracted by the State department probably for about, at least thirty five states. I was going all over America. I haven’t seen Hawaii. I haven’t seen Alaska, but otherwise, — O’NEIL: Is there anything you noticed about the people in those areas of the country? Like, the way they treat you or other people around them? SOLJAN: Mmhm. Oh well Americans are very, very hospitable I must say that Well, I must in other parts of the world too We often hear about the English being cold and reserved We lived in England for four years all together, off and on. the English can be {hospitable} also— it’s just a question of they don’t hug Page 4 �so much, like we in America. They tend to be kind of private and they have a little suspicion if you hug them too much. ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: But otherwise, no. we know other nationalities. We also spent time in Italy, and we have friends in France and so on. So, people are- you find good people and friendly people everywhere. And you find also, I don’t know, I wouldn’t call them “bad” people but, the people you wouldn’t gladly spend time with. You find them everywhere. O’NEIL: The less nice. SOLJAN: Mmhm. O’NEIL: Ok, continuing with the civil rights topic, like how people treat each other- has anyone, like you or your family been — SOLJAN: Mmhm. — Welt, no. We’ve never really— As a matter of fact we’ve been treated always as if we were special. The one thing was the compassion, the fact that they knew that we lost everything and were the victims of the war in that sense. So they extended help, “Whatever you need..” and so on. Always only positive. But then of course, I think it’s always mutual. We’ve always treated people very very nicely. And I think it’s, it’s a very simple rule it’s kind of the “the rule of thumb” as they call it. “You treat me well, I’ll treat you well.” There are of course, there are segments of any population and you see, we had this civil war which was- terrible, where some of my— very close friends ted out to be war criminals. Kind of— participating in—slaughters and what not. So you never know. Things happen in life. But to us, it’s been a— a very good experience. I might even say blessing. our children had a- stable place to continue their life. We enjoyed- our life back home was very good. I had very good- I worked at the university and taught there for about twenty years and was highly respected. My wife, she was a high school teacher and then editor later on in a publishing house. So, it was a good life. But then suddenly, everything just caved in. So you change everything. You adapt. The most important thing is to be able to adapt. Accept what life brings you. O’NEIL: Were there any people in particular that affected your thinking about- particularly ethnicities or genders or religions? SOLJAN: I wouldn’t say so. we as a family are catholics and of course in America the church life is - in contrast to many, MOST, of the rest of the world. It is one of the hubs where people, I mean very often you have the impression that it’s more of a- club. You cannot feel that so much because you live here but if you go to other countries, there’s much more indifference, Americans on the whole are very religious. At least they say, or at least they think they are. But for those who go regularly and attend churches it’s often really—companionship, more- I don’t know. I don’t want to be nasty, but sometimes it’s not really something profoundly spiritual at it is just getting together, having donuts and coffee. Well, there’s nothing wrong with that! After all, the relationship, the companionship is religion. get together and be together and help each other. So no. I must say-well, I’ve come across bigotry, there’s no doubt. Not against me, but I’ve heard where people are speaking about the blacks very very, - in a Page 5 �way that you don’t like to hear. Or others it’s not just blacks, it’s- but then, these are the people that, you normally wouldn’t associate yourself with anyway. And you’ll keep them at arm’s distance. So there is, sadly there is still- you know and that’s part of my— You asked me, or whoever did, in my Anthropology class—, I have a pretty big political experience. I participated in a number of political events here in America, and back home. One of them was peace negotiations in Dayton, Ohio. You weren’t born, or were little kids so you don’t remember that. It was November of ‘95, which actually ended that war in the Balkans. It was a very exciting thing to see all these, kind of, dignitaries . And I was invited by President Clinton actually to go and accompany him to go to Bosnia on Air Force One to visit the troops So then, you find wonderful people and of course you find people who would definitely need some— re education. Especially in the sense of the feelings of superiority, but you have that in other countries too. The thing that particularly hurts me, because I’m an American, we got American, nationality in 2001 so it’s been ten years now, is that especially now the treatment of the people of the middle east. The Muslims and the— there is this rather unjustified sense of superiority “These are the primitive guys that have to give us our oil, because that’s our oil. If not we’ll kick some butts.” ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: So, this whole ideal - and that’s very often actually articulated as “ugly American” or “arrogant American”. There is that. You find that also that some people I’ve met that belong to the militia the Michigan Militia. There is a lot of bigotry there. I won’t say that, at least publicly they’re not Ku Klux Klan, but a lot of their thinking is along these lines. KNOPER: So what would you say in the big scope the “American view” of other cultures or other countries versus your country’s, or Yugoslavia’s view, or the world view? How would you compare their views? SOLJAN: Well, again I must say, sadly, because America is such a huge country, and such a huge potential economic and whatnot, Americans are very ignorant. That’s one thing that, well, you are privileged because you come to college and suddenly your eyes open. But it’s just —what’s Jay Leno’s—, there’s a part of the program he does every several weeks where he—”Jaywalking” or something like that, where he confronts these youngsters and asks them “What is the capital of America?” “Puerto Rico!”, these guys know nothing! No history. Sadly, it’s the consequence that these subjects are being removed. “Oh, do we need that? We’re a big country. We’re so important.”, but it really, —it closes your horizons, and that’s not good. I just, right now, an hour ago, or two hours ago— there was a lecture in Kirkhof center. There was a guy from one of the universities in Pennsylvania talking about American politics and policies in the Middle East. And it’s defeating to see that most Americans don’t even know, after ten years of the war in Iraq, “Where’s Iraq?”, and stuff like that. Not interested!, American population, like so many others, and I see that actually being spread all over the world, that’s the very strong, American consumerism. People are primarily consumers. Buy, buy, buy. And in a number of homes you don’t have books at all. A book is a rarity. There are televisions perhaps in every—there’s a plasma in every room, and then there are eight hundred channels but seven hundred ninety-nine are nothing something like that. So there’s a huge offer on the market, but very little- very little selectivity. That should be and that could be. I know that from the education of my kids and I Assume you are in the same thing. If you try and you get good direction from your professors and the surroundings where you are, America can Page 6 �easily produce brilliant kids, brilliant experts. But a lot of that is basically just buy your car, buy your home, go and spend some time—a lot of time in casinos and go to Las Vegas, that kind of stuff. In order, politically speaking, in order actually to keep social unrest controlled—because there is a lot of reason for unrest—there is a huge difference in income that’s a problem right now, so huge it’s just unbelievable. In order to keep people peaceful, give them things to buy! That’s exactly what President Bush after 9/11 just said, “Oh,”, “go out and buy! Go out! Shop!” (pause) SOLJAN: Anything else guys? O’NEIL: I have one little thing SOLJAN: A couple of jokes from Bosnia? ALL: (laugh) O’NEIL: If you want, go ahead! (laughs) You’re clearly very well-read, being an english professor and knowing Shakespeare and everything, is there any particular work of literature or art or a book or a movie that influenced your perception of people? SOLJAN: Yeah, well all literature is about people, so there’s no doubt about that, even when you cannot project it and very often that (?) it’s always about people. And even if they have these horns, different (?) on their heads and what not, three heads and what not, they’re people, because human psyche is the same otherwise we wouldn’t understand. these creatures that are just a blob of energy, even they love or hate or something. but literature in general is just a—wonderful tool of understanding, learning and learning about your life and the life of those around you, but Hamlet is of course one of my favorites but there are so many others. The list is just huge. O’NEIL: This is just my personal curiosity, but you said you were on Air Force One? SOLJAN: No, I was invited to go there; I had to miss it, because I had separate problems here at Grand Valley at that time so I was really engaged deeply in resolving that first. But it was I got the White House invitation that said will you go with the President and work and be his interpreter over there, which is kind of a very, very wonderful I just said that after “How stupid of me. I should have done that, and remain in the White house! No, but, I’m here in Grand Valley. O’NEIL: Well I’m glad you stayed. (Laughs) Another little curiosity—how many languages do you speak? SOLJAN: Well, my native tongue is known as—its a Slav language like Polish or like Russian. It’s called Croatian. O’NEIL: Okay! SOLJAN: —l can tell you a little bit here, so you have that there for curiosity. . (Speaking in Croatian) “What would you like me to tell you? If you want I can tell you all sorts of things.” Thats what I said. Now, that’s Croatian. Then English—English of course—English is not my mother tongue, but I’m pretty Page 7 �fluent in English. And I speak Italian. Can read Spanish--I can pretty much atone with French. it’s pretty much a common thing with intellectuals in Europe. They speak— they’re small countries, so you need -it’s not like it is in America where you travel two days and you’re still in America. Ya, or three days even, if you go by car. Over there you can—there you can go through three or four countries and with different languages. That’s what I mean. KNOPER: Yeah I know, like my friend from—he’s in Czech Republic, and I mean all in Europe they like teach English. They have English along with their other stuff. SOLJAN: Oh I know. Absolutely. When I started, it was pretty new there at that time, because it was not so long after the second world war, but we started when I was like ten years old—and it was full eight years there. So after that—well even so some of them would never—, it just depends on how attentive you are, and you must pay attention or otherwise it doesn’t go into your head by itself. But yeah, that’s it. And then normally you just pick up a couple of others at least so much that you can make yourself understood and can read popular things and so on. O’NEIL: do we have most of our—at least all of— KNOPER: Yeah we pretty much got through everything. I mean we covered the views—we can talk about the past I guess, but — SOLJAN: I got something of my past; I never killed anyone—but I might! (All laughs) KNOPER: oh. (Laughs) Hopefully no one in this room! O’NEIL: Yeah! (Laughs) KNOPER: So like what about your—you mentioned you came over here at age forty-something— SOLJAN: Forty-three, yes. KNOPER: Forty-three. What kind of like—in your teens—what kind of things were you like going— were you interested in. Did you go to school at Grand Valley also? SOLJAN: No. You mean myself? KNOPER: Yeah, like in college and all that stuff. SOLJAN: Oh no! No, no. I got my education in Europe. So I completed my—I got my higher degrees in England. So I lived in England. And in a sense—and of course England is quite different from America, but America is much more unified so to speak—i mean McDonald’s everywhere Taco Bell everywhere, and four kinds of gasoline everywhere. But no I came here, as I say after being really rather thoroughly familiar with American way of life and American culture and American history, that’s another thing that I often find frustrating here when I ask my students about American history. O’NEIL: A bunch of blank stares— Page 8 �SOLJAN: Yeah. My usual joke is “Was it before Vietnam or after Vietnam?” Something that happened like three-hundred years ago. So as I say, the only psychological shock was the feeling that you lost your country, that you’ve lost all the things you’ve been building through through twenty-five, thirty years— and that you have to start from—even though we’ve been many places in the world, it’s kind of tough initially. You have to accommodate yourself and say well that’s it now so it’s being here. And we didn’t come, —typically people come to America for economic reasons. It’s kind of immigrants who--as they like to say here, dream their American dream or something—fulfilling their American dream. No it wasn’t our case, our case was to—as we couldn’t ret—I mean the war was just raging over there. We couldn’t go back. It was basically starting life somewhere you could start it. It wasn’t economic stuff. KNOPER: Was there ever—did you ever like think of going somewhere in Europe at that time? SOLJAN: Well, that was a possibility. We had some good friends, American diplomats. And before thinking of going here, he said there is a possibility you can actually—he worked as an American diplomat in Northern Germany; he said their American base is here—he said you can just kind of start from. But, I contacted Grand Valley, and they just said pack up and come here immediately —and that’s it. O’NEIL: Was the fact that Grand Valley offered you a position something that influenced you to become a professor— SOLJAN: Well no, as I said I was a professor for twenty years before that back home, so I’ve been teaching for forty years—more than forty years. I had this—I was primarily thinking, because I have a major in violin too and music—and I was thinking to myself as a music performer and violinist, at certain point there are these branching roads, and you have to choose, you cannot take both—and there was this good opportunity, and even someone from the university of Sarajevo told me, Why don’t you complete your graduate studies and join us?”, it’s a chance like so many things in life—you start—that’s one good thing with studies- -you said you were still undecided, it doesn’t matter. You can always change as I told you. My son completed English and Spanish and you could say that doesn’t really lead him to a producer in film industry, but that’s where he ended up and he’s extremely happy. that’s what he considers—you can learn all the time. That’s the point. And if you’re willing to learn the roads are open. KNOPER: Would you say Americans have more opportunity than maybe you had early in your life like college? Or is it just like now a days— SOLJAN: Yes and no. In the sense that even here—I don’t know we call something here complaints that not enough American youth go to—, many of them are dropouts even in high school, and many of them don’t complete their studies. So I’m wondering--there’s no doubt that the American facilities or the American universities—the huge difference between the American universities and European universities—generally speaking European universities- -that you pay here. It used to be—I don’t know whether it’s going to change under American influence, but in other words, universities here are business proposition. You pay—what you call that? KNOPER: Tuition. Page 9 �SOLJAN: Tuition, right. and it grows and grows and grows and without tuition the univeisities wouldn’t exist. And over there, in most countries it used to be free university—you wouldn’t have to pay. Now whether that’s good or not, I don’t know. I got very good education there, but I must say the high school also, I think, was much more concentrated on important things—that’s what I say the sense of history and geography is also something we immediately recognize and know about that. Now whether that’s the ultimate thing in your life, I don’t know it doesn’t have to be. There are differences, and again, I’m not someone who—back home I also had a very developed cultural life, intellectual life, so I had no problems, moving anywhere. For someone who actually came here—and I think that’s the majority of people who come from other countries—they usually move to America in order to make some money and to start a new life, economic life. And of course for them it’s difficult. Number one, the language barrier, number two all these customs they don’t really know and they have to get used to them. It’s difficult to say I never really systematically thought about that. (Pause) KNOPER: Anything else? SOLJAN: You fed up with me? O’NEIL: No, I could just ask you questions for hours, but in terms of the assignment I think we— SOLJAN: Good, wonderful. Well if you want to add something I haven’t said, please do. No problem. Only let it not be dangerous. The Italians have a nice saying, they say, “(speaking in Italian). If it is not true it’s well found.” KNOPER: Exactly! SOLJAN: Okay guys! Thank you very much. All the best. And have A’s. Four A’s! KNOPER: Hopefully. END OF INTERVIEW Page 10 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a68ce5b8a81d860dc370e1cab3e2318.mp3 b2b05271d1182746fb7b82022eff8eb3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Soljan_Ivo Title A name given to the resource Ivo Soljan audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Soljan, Ivo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Knoper, Logan Hall, Alyssa O'Neil, Tim Jackson, Tierra Description An account of the resource Ivo Soljan compares and contrasts the different countries that he has lived in. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3c505f6863f004afd609f583bd32caa1.pdf 5bb9124d21c881e7eacf778241323098 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jacqueline Decker Interviewer(s): Emma Jack Supervising Faculty: Danielle Lake Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: October 26, 2011 Runtime: 01:08:05 Biography and Description Born March, 3rd 1959 to parents Richard and Eve Holland. Youngest of three children with brothers Gary and Terry. Grew up in Grand Rapids, graduating from Crestwood high school. She then continued her education at Central Michigan University with a major in English and a minor in psychology. Ran cross country and track and field on the varsity teams. Met her husband (now of 30 years), Steven Decker in the dorms on campus in her freshman year, his sophomore year. Was married at age 22 and moved to Fremont, Michigan following her husband’s job at Gerber, while being a sports journalist for the Grand Rapids press. After several years she felt a calling to return to school and become a teacher. On July 18th, 1989, her first [adopted] child Zachary Michael was born. She and her family then moved to Rockford to start her new job as a teacher. On July 22, 1991, her second [adopted] child Andrea Lin was born. On August 16th, 1992 her last [biological] child Samantha Louise was born. She has been an English teacher at Rockford High School for 20+ years. She has also provided a home for several pugs over the years, those now being Molly (8 years old) and Crissy (11 years old). Transcript JACK: Hi, my name is Emma Jack and I’m here today with: Brooke Davis, Brittany Renninger, Kevin, Samantha Decker; and we are going to be speaking with Jackie Dekker today at GVSU. We are here today to talk about your experiences with education in west Michigan. DECKER: How are you today? JACK: I’m great, how are you? DECKER: I’m great, thanks JACK: So tell us a little bit about yourself and your background. Page 1 �DECKER: My name is Jackie Decker I was born in Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids on 3/2/59. My parents were college sweethearts form Comstock park, I have two brothers one 9 years older, one 5 years older, from Comstock park and Byron center respectively. JACK: What was it like to grow up in west Michigan? DECKER: It was a typical 60’s lifestyle. Two parent homes and my elementary was just a neighborhood school until 4th grade and then a bunch of kids were bused in. 456 grade were an integrated school. Middle school was typical only two families that weren’t Caucasian. One family was black, and one family was Asian. I went to Creston high school, which was pretty much considered an inner city high school, which was 2/3 of the neighborhood. JACK:x What made you decide to stay in west Michigan? DECKER: I didn’t think I would because Grand Rapids was a dying town when growing up, and I wanted to move as far away as possible. But once your from west Michigan its hard to get away. I currently live in Rockford with surprisingly a lot of my classmates from Creston High school. I believe a lot of people like west Michigan not only for the lakes, which are great. It has changed a lot since the 50’s 60’s lifestyles but the same family values that I grew to appreciate are still intertwined in society. JACK:x How would you describe your own identity? If you were to describe yourself to someone else how would you describe yourself? DECKER: I grew up congregational, I now go to a Methodist church, but I could probably go to any Christian church and feel good about myself while doing so. I have strong family values, I like it when people get married and have children and family life. I wouldn’t discriminate against people who don’t live that way but I still have some of those same strong family values. Very strong work ethic put forth the very best effort I can. Its still surprising that some people can get away with what they can by doing so little work. JACK: How would you describe your identity in the school system? DECKER: Probably in the same way. I usually don’t leave the school until about 4:30 compared to some others who take off right after class, etc. They know that I participate in students’ athletic events, speaking at special events (fellowship Christian athletes). I have the gay/straight association in my classes. Most kids would say that I’m a very challenging teacher because I make them work hard but at the same time they would consider it a safe haven. JACK: What do you teach? DECKER: I teach honors English 10 and regular English 11. JACK: Can you explain a little more about the fellowship Christian athletes? DECKER: It’s not always athletes; we have a huge contingent of students in the school who really go to a Baptist church. A huge mega Baptist church, and a lot of them start and have gotten involved in that. They get together pray. We get together talk and ask how I got into teaching, and I felt led to go into Page 2 �teaching. They meet on wed and I have two groups of kids that meet in my room on Mondays. On Fridays about 20 kids come in and sing praise songs. JACK: So you really have open doors to any organization. DECKER: Absolutely. JACK: Would there be any kind of organization you’d keep your door closed to? DECKER: The anime club, because I don’t know how to draw hahaha just kidding JACK: Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adult hood where you felt you were treated differently because of your profession or your gender? DECKER: I would say even though there are more female teachers in our school system at Rockford it is a male dominated school system. The principal at my building is a female, and most buildings have female in some capacity in a leader figure. JACK: How would you describe the differences between men and women in the school system? DECKER: Men get away with so much more than women. If I swore at children or made a racist joke I would get in a lot more trouble than a guy would get in trouble for. JACK: Did your school system have a male superintendent or a higher up male personnel? DECKER: We never had a female in any of those higher positions, we have a superintendent and two assistant superintendents, both male. People are almost fearful to speak out a lot with these issues. JACK: So its something that has been noticed in your community? DECKER: Our school board is eclectic. But any time someone runs for the school board they all say they’re going to make changes, but they just ultimately do what the superintendents want them to do. JACK: Do you feel like that inhibits you from doing the things you want to do in your classroom? DECKER: It doesn’t inhibit me from doing things within my classroom for the most part. I’m not a buddybuddy with the principal. Him and the other teachers know what I stand for and they know I’m doing a good job so they leave me alone. I’m in a hallway with only one other teacher. JACK: I know your in a system where all the other English teachers are all male, do you feel like that inhibits you from doing the things that you wish you could do, do you feel intimidated? DECKER: No not really. They’re big sci-fi fans so they want to read all these sci-fi books, but I’m not afraid of them at all. This past year some of them honored me for teaching and said I really deserved it. In there own way they have there own little boys club too. JACK: But they respect you? DECKER: Absolutely, I don’t have that at all from any of the men in our department. Page 3 �JACK: Is it true that you did not start your career in education? DECKER: Nope I started my career as a sports reporter for the Grand Rapids press covering high school sports. JACK: What do you think led you to become a teacher from that? DECKER: I just got a feeling that god wanted me to be working with high school students in a different way. When I was in high school I didn’t like the other students because I had brothers that were much older and parents who were much older. I thought they were kind of stupid and did dumb things. I kind of grew up old. I felt that there was need there and this will be my 22nd year. JACK: Were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the treatment of diverse individuals in society? DECKER: I had an uncle who he really had a negative view of people that were diverse. He said a derogatory statement at the table, and I ended up standing up and leaving because I was really mad. He had a very negative view of blacks. I had a great 5th and 6th grade teacher, he really made an impact on me on how these people are just different than I am with really no difference. About 5 years after i moved onto high school he became a defense attorney in grand rapids and defended the people who couldn’t get anyone else to defend them, he really changed the way I look at people. JACK: Have you kept in contact with him? DECKER: I used to seem him at road races (we were both runners.) I haven’t seen him in a long while, but every now and then there’ll be case where nobody wants it and he’ll swoop in and take it on. He is a champion for the underdogs and different races. He really changed my life. JACK: Would you say he’s a big impact on how you treat students today? DECKER: I would say so. Just the way he looked at people, I look at people differently because of that. My parents had prejudices, but they didn’t have mean prejudices, they just had prejudices born on ignorance and I wouldn’t say that they were like my uncle. But they were prejudice. One young man asked me out on a date that happened to be black, and I said it wasn’t a very good idea because of the fact that neither of our parents were going to think that it was a good idea. But I would say that Mr. Dorian? Changed my view of things. JACK: Is it difficult for you now to come into a society where everything is so mixed and you have to be accepting? DECKER: No. Teaching has been a great place for me to be. I see all different types of students that really open my eyes to how diverse people can be. I have grown to be accepting of these students, because they’re great kids. I have a daughter (not Sam) that came home a month or so ago with a pierced eyebrow and now kids are piercing their ears, and various other facial parts. We are adoptive parents. Our son was adopted when he was 2 days old from Tacoma Washington. He’s Caucasian. Our daughter Andrea’s birth mom is 100% Vietnamese, and she was a student at Calvin college. She gave birth to Page 4 �Andrea and now she is a part of our family. My mom lost a brother, he was in a control tower on a naval vessel, and a kamikaze hit the control tower so she had a total distrust of people who were Asian. In 9th grade my dad had surgery and his doctor who saved his life was Asian. I think that was all healing and when our daughter Andrea was born we asked “are you going to be able to love an Asian child?” and she said this may be really good for me. Unfortunately she only lived to when Andrea was 2 and Sam was 1. She didn’t get a chance to really meet them. I’m very accepting to everyone. I’ll admit that some people who make decision like gauging out their ears I think to myself “woa, can you sew that back together?” But overall I have to be very accepting with the position that I’m in. (starting at minute 14)-----and Sam was one so…she didn’t get a chance but I am very accepting of—but, I ya know, people have big holes in their ears I admit and it’s like, woah, can you cut that thing off and sew it back together? (laughs) But I have to be very accepting in the position that I am in. JACK: Would you say that there are still some teachers today even in your school system that are not very accepting of those students? DECKER: Absolutely. And the kids know. The kids know who cares about them and who’s accepting and not and I would say one of the issues, one of the issues that is still fairly big, probably, is kids in Rockford who are gay. You know? And kids—most of them just try to fly under the radar. They just—I mean I, ya know, fly under the radar. And we have the Gay, Straight Association and stuff like that, but there’s only about seven kids who go to that. You know, not that many kids go but they find acceptance there—but, ya know, I—and I know that, you know, there are a lot of jokes made and things like that and I always feel for those kids. JACK: Do you feel that their studies suffer because--? DECKER: Oh yeah, I’m sure they—they’re always just trying very hard not to be gay—to show that they’re gay. JACK: So you think that there is a lot of stress there that is taking away from what they could be because they’re just trying not to be something that society doesn’t want them to be? DECKER: They don’t want to be noticed. They really don’t want to be noticed. So I would say yeah, absolutely that’s stressful. They don’t want to go to school—and, and these aren’t even the kids who have identifies themselves as gay. They are just, just trying to get out of there as quietly as possible. And then there are other kids that are really embraced—the king, they boy who was just nominated homecoming king is gay. And a couple years ago—a couple years was? Yeah. So it’s not like the student body is not accepting. The student body is fairly accepting—you know, overall—I think they’re even more worried about some of the teachers not being accepting. It’s still West Michigan, conservative West Michigan. So yeah—but the student body will vote for 12 guys [for homecoming court] and pick the guy who is gay for their king and he’s pretty accepting. JACK: Do, like, some of the teachers openly, like, make statements that are derogatory to them? --or so they know which—or is it making the student uncomfortable if they were in their class? Page 5 �DECKER: I—I think people will try to be very politically correct—I think they just let kids say things that, you know I would say, “hey, don’t say that.” Um…um and you know, I think that’s more—I think that kids, um, it’s not that teachers necessarily will say things, um, ‘cause they’ve been trained not to say anything that’s not politically correct. But I think they’ll let the kids get away with things. JACK: Do you feel that you are trying to stand up for the kids because some teachers won’t? Like you said, some teachers will allow students to say things or let students get away with things, but do you feel that you try to go out of your way to help these students because your faculty members don’t? DECKER: Probably—it’s funny that, you know, that I’m going to talk at an FCA, but then you’ve got GSA, and in—in some ways—and I’m—I’m thinking that I might talk to the FCA about—Fellowship of Christian athletes—about hey, love everybody. You know, don’t just love the kids who go to your church, and that’s easy to do, but to love everybody, you know. Really, how are you reaching out to the handicap kids in our building? We had a girl last year who was blind—and I don’t think there were very many people who even said hi to her and it’s like, you know she was a really really smart girl and very nice and I just think that, um, I just want—I just think—I guess I’ve always just kind of loved people and—and want them to feel safe. I think that’s the best way to put it. JACK: Have you experienced things that—where there has been, say, a specific situation where there has been discrimination against a student that you have been witness to? DECKER: Particularly, I don’t think so. I haven’t, like, seen anybody get beaten up. I haven’t seen anybody, um—we are a—at Rockford High School, I brought something with me that said that…we have 1881 white kids in nine through twelve. We have 40 Hispanic, 39 black or African American, 21 Asian, three American Indian-Alaskan, and then I think we have 2 Hawaiian or Pacific Island. So it’s really a white school and I—I haven’t seen, like, any of the white kids picking on the black kids or the Hispanic kids…but over the course of the years I think the kids have become more politically correct too—I haven’t seen that, haven’t necessarily seen anyone pick on anyone who is gay, or Asian, or anything else like that—haven’t seen anyone pick on anything like that but you know, I just—I want to make sure that my room is a pace where anyone can come in and feel safe. So I haven’t seen any particular incidents where kids were like, you know, I mean like I said, we have a king who is gay—people aren’t going to boo.—they’re not going to boo or anything they’re very polite…it’s a polite community. JACK: So would you say that’s changed over the years? We’ve become—that our society has become more tolerant towards them? DECKER: Oh yeah—you’re generation is so much more tolerant than ten years ago or twenty years ago when I first started teaching—I’m more tolerant. I would’ve let those jokes go twenty years ago, I admit it. And you know—and my family they used to make—there used to be, like, racial jokes or stuff like that and I would—I—it’s only as an adult and the more I’ve worked in the school system that I’ve become more open minded myself, you know? But I don’t know, your generation’s a whole lot different than my generation was—and I went to a school that was integrated…but there were fights sometimes and that—there wasn’t a lack of safety but it wasn’t—there was always a lack of ignorance. I don’t think you’re so ignorant of each other anymore. And I push not being ignorant of each other—okay so it’s like, Page 6 �so, so that person’s black? He’s got more pigment—we’re always trying to get tan (laughs) I mean really? Why does this matter? You know? So, I guess I think your generation is a ton more tolerant. I’ve seen a lot of change—Rockford when I first started was class size of about 350. And my *first+ daughter’s class was 680. I think this year we only have 600, but, you know, when you go from 350 who all grow up on farms around Rockford and the few people who live in downtown Rockford, um, and then all-asudden you start bringing in this diversity of economics …we have some really really rich people there and some really really poor people and we have a lot of people in the middle—we have school of choice—we just have to be very flexible. JACK: Do you think that a lot of the different racial or ethnic groups kind of clump together? Is there a lot of mixture with the students? DECKER: There’s a lot of mixture—they don’t have a choice. There are only 39 black students in the school? They can’t all just hang out with black kids. I mean, truly, they don’t—and Hispanic—I’m thinking really? We have 4000—you can’t tell! Everybody mixes. I mean my one daughter’s Asian—she really grew up white. You know it wasn’t like there was a bunch of Asian kids to hang out. So I think they have no choice—they have to—when—as I was telling my friend when we had dinner, kids who come in who are black, if they come in from outside the community, they may act like they’re inner-city for about a year and then they’re Rockford. Everybody just mixes…I don’t think that’s the big deal. It used to be a big deal but it’s not a big deal anymore. JACK: What kinds of organizations are available for kids at Rockford that really promote diversity within the student body? DECKER: We have a diversity club, but I don’t know if it’s met at all this year. Then I said, we have GSA, Gay-Straight Association?—or I think its Alliance—I think that’s what it is. Um…and then like I said, the anime club which sometimes will get, like, your skaters and people like that—but, um, I mean— they’re—and we have FCA and we have chess club and eco club and stuff like that so there are a lot of different clubs—but as far as diversity we just have the one diversity club. So…there isn’t a lot—what else is out there that’s available. JACK: Do you think it’s important for students to really, kind of up that? Or make it better? DECKER: You know, I think that would be probably helpful. I think—umm—the entire student body has been trained with guest speakers and things over the years to kind of look at each other as oh, yeah we’re just all equal. We do a good job of bringing in guest speakers. JACK: I have heard that at Rockford you have to be either really good at sports or really good-looking or really good in the arts or music or something to kind of… I guess, get along there and if you don’t have one of those, you’re going to have a tough time at Rockford. Would you say that that is true? Would you say that it was true and it’s changing now? Do you have any opinion on that subject? DECKER: I think it’s changing now…when you mention sports…or, like we have band…a lot of band kids hang with band kids and a lot of choir people hang with choir people. Um—I think it’s changed a lot though over the years…um I think if kids spend time doing those things in which they have to be good Page 7 �at—it’s just they spend so much time with those people that they become their friends but I think it—I think there’s a pretty decent mix—I don’t think people are necessarily prejudice. When I put groups together I always try to put people of different—you know, groups together but I don’t think it’s as…mmm…. Let’s see but I’m not in it, I’m not in a click, I don’t have to worry about “clicky-ness”. I don’t notice that so much…you may know more about that than I do JACK: How has your faith influenced the way you think about diversity and the way your present yourself in situations? DECKER: Um, you know, what I think that my faith has a lot to do with it because I just grew up when, you know, “Jesus love the little children” everybody, you know, we’re supposed to love each other and do unto others as you would have others do unto you and so i think my faith has a lot to do with it. Not to say that people who don’t have faith wouldn’t have the same attitudes towards people. I think sometimes if kids realize, you know, I’m a Christian, sometimes I think people might go, “oh, well she’s going to be like, judgmental” and things like that and I’m not and then it takes them by surprise and they’re glad about that. And so then I think we get along quite well. JACK: Can you tell us more about your schooling when you were younger and maybe about things that you came across with diversity? DECKER: Well, I went to Aberdine Elementary School …um which was three blocks from my house and as I said, it was just a neighborhood school until fourth grade they—um many kids were bused in—I’m not even sure where they were bused in from, but somewhere else in Grand Rapids. Um, and it was a mixture, it wasn’t just…um…busing in black kids, but it was to integrate the school system and the law said integrate the school system and um, so—you know when you’re a little kid? And kids are kids are kids, you know? You’re not even like, “oh my gosh” you know, it’s not that big of a deal, it’s more what your parents say that you start to notice things. But, um, you know, so I think growing up in that elementary and then—and I went to a junior high that was back to being a neighborhood school, you know, and there was the one Asian family and they were really smart, and there was the one black family. And then we went to the high school and that was very integrated. So, I think that I just realized—and I went on to college and was on teams, you know, I was on track in high school and in middle school and then in college I was on sport—I was on track and cross country and track was a very integrated sport. So, I think I just kind of grew up knowing that, you know—you know we’re all just athletes at that point. So—I don’t think I—but I, you know, there are still a lot of people who still have prejudices and things like that. JACK: Was there anything that stands out to you—I don’t know if you remember—in like, when you were growing up in like, elementary school, you said that you went to a, um, integrated school—was there any, um, like with the adults, like the teachers there, did they have any, like, that they were against it? Being—? DECKER: I think my fourth grade teacher she was – she did not have good control of the unique classroom that we had, she probably had decent control over, you know, when it was all just this whiteneighborhood kids and things like that. When you bring in a different culture, she did not have—she did Page 8 �not have good control over that. But then that fifth and sixth grade teacher that I had—he was a champion for the people—and I know our class was—had some integration in it and so I would say that his influence probably filtered down to some of the other teachers. But sure, there were some teachers who didn’t want to be teaching at an inner-city school. So, Aberdine was one of the farther north elementary schools, and so I think that was a big shock for them and hard to control. In high school, I don’t remember…I mean I do remember a couple fights between kids, but I don’t think the teachers…I don’t remember anything. And we had—we had more------------ non-Caucasian teachers when I graduated in 77 at Creston. We have, we don't have any non-white teachers at Rockford that I can think of in the whole system. We have a couple of security guards who are non-white and we have a pool manager who is non-white. And every teacher in the system, that I can think of is white. That says something. JACK: Is that including like the school board and superintendent and everybody? DECKER: Absolutely. JACK: Wow. Do you think that has an effect on the students? DECKER: Absolutely, I think, you know, if I was black and the only people I ever saw at the building were white I think that would make me have to be somewhat white because I don't have anyone from my culture. Although we bring in speaker and stuff we still don't understand each other's cultures so when people come into our school they have to basically become white. JACK: Do you think it would be good for you school system to bring in some diverse teachers? DECKER: Yeah, there's got to be someone who has applied for a position in Rockford, who isn't white, who maybe is in a wheelchair or something you know so that people can say that people who have handicaps are able to have positions and someone who is um Asian. I mean when I was in high school we had some foreign teachers who were in there who didn't quite speak English the same way we did. And I'm just amazed that there is not some rule that says you have to have some diversity. JACK: With who's running the school system now do you think that's going to change? DECKER: If somebody different was running it? JACK: With who you have now. DECKER: O, no, I don't think so. I don't think there will be a push for that. And right now there is a hiring freeze for the most part so no one is hiring anybody. I was hired in with about 30 people in 1991 and we were all white. and... JACK: So even your, I didn't mean to interrupt sorry, your foreign language teachers, they're not like, or your Spanish teachers, they're not like Hispanic or anything like that even? DECKER: No, we do have a Hispanic teacher at our building, Mrs. Shordsma, you know who she is? no, no, no, she teaches social studies. And she was the one who had started up the diversity club, and she is the only Hispanic in our building. Page 9 �JACK: Well we have a Japanese teacher DECKER: O yeah if forgot about her, she teaches English. She struggles but, she's not very good with English but she's a great Japanese teacher. I forgot about Meg. Yeah, other than that but, our German Teacher, he's not German, none of our Spanish teachers are Spanish, the French teachers, they're not French and they are very white. Women, for the most part. JACK: That's really interesting, like for me where I went to school we had at least two out of the three Spanish teachers were Hispanic, they knew the language very fluently. And not to say that your teachers don't know the language fluently. DECKER: Well they don't know it in the same way. JACK: Right, but and the culture. DECKER: Well they can talk about the culture but... JACK: They don't know it. DECKER: They don't know the culture. They've never lived the culture. JACK: Do you think that maybe the teachers and the faculty should kind of join together to bring more diversity, or do you think that it's kind of between a rock and a hard place in that situation? DECKER: We're always, you know, and often we've had meetings that we've had to go to that were about diversity. That's just, well look at us you know, we look around there, if we get the whole staff together from the district, there are probably about 500 teachers, and they're all for the most part like I said, a bunch of white people. Who, most of whom probably grew up in West Michigan. So, um, it would be nice to have diversity but probably, I mean truthfully nobody would push for that. JACK: That's very interesting. DECKER: uh huh JACK: Teaching for the past twenty years have you witnessed changes in diversity being the amount of it within the school and the amount of it becoming more prominent? DECKER: I think school of choice is going to continue to impact a lot of schools. I think Rockford will get more and more diverse, um, I don't want to say clientele which sounds kind of weird, um, but I don't think we will ever, I don't think our district will ever be diverse like Kentwood, or the Forest Hills Northern schools, when, when, people move in from foreign countries like Bosnia and things like that, they are not going to pick Rockford. We don't have the, um, we don't have the manpower to help them learn the language. We have a Spanish Immersion class that started in Kindergarten and now, I think, those kids are up to 8th grade. But those are still white kids learning Spanish. And there actually might be a couple of Hispanic teachers in there. But see I'm not in elementary school, so I haven't seen it. I, I think that school choice makes a difference, but I don't think that we are ever going to become diverse. Like even, my brother's at Comstock Park high school, they have become, that used to be just a middle Page 10 �class white school system. And with the influx of students who are living on Alpine like in York Creek or something like that said it's very diversified, I have a friend I met with tonight that teaches at Sacred Heart Elementary she says that her population went from mostly middle class white people to Hispanic, because the neighborhoods have changed. I don't see that happening at Rockford. I say, that if you talk to me 10 years from now and I'll say we have 59 black students, maybe more, but not, not, it will not become a diverse school system. So, not for a while, I'm not quite sure why maybe there is not jobs out there or something. JACK: Why would people choose Rockford as a school choice? DECKER: Great education. I mean, I talked to somebody last week and he said that you know, we ,we did not, my wife and I were not in private education, we were pretty eerie about putting our kids into a school system and he said I have no complaints with Rockford, the teachers all care about kids and they want them to have a good education so that's why people would want to move to Rockford so I'm just surprised that more people don't come North to Rockford, they just don't. JACK: Do you think it's, um, people aren't choosing that because education isn't as important to people as maybe other things as like sports and stuff like that? DECKER: Well it's a huge sports school though, I mean we have, you know, we joke about how many state championships we've won over the years and things like that. Um, I think that maybe people are afraid maybe that if they come to Rockford they won't be accepted. And I think that, you know, we don't have any choice I mean you're going to accept people because you do. That's just the way the world is, it's a, you know it's a very accepting world so I think maybe that's the reason, a lot of people at Rockford actually has a little bit of a bad reputation because we are so good in sports, kind of like Grand Valley, and um, know that our sports teams, you know everybody is successful and things like that. Um, but I think that people are afraid of the lack of acceptance, but, I don't think, It's harder I think for kids who are poorer and for kids who are of a different race. At Rockford. JACK: Do you think Rockford prepares like most of your seniors who are going off to college, do you think that your school prepares them for the amount of diversity that they are going to experience in college or do you think that? DECKER: I think we try but I don't think we can do that, I mean, my daughter when she left Rockford and went to Michigan State, she said all these Asian people were trying to say hi to her and make conversation with her. Well she couldn't do that because well, you know she speaks English. But she never said it was a shock for her, and Michigan State is a lot more diverse than Grand Valley is, Grand Valley's a lot like Rockford. Um, Michigan State is really diverse but I don't think she's ever said that she's had any problem with anybody of different race. So I don't think, I think she was prepared; we do the best that we can with what we have. JACK: Have there been any landmark events that have changed your opinion dealing with diversity? DECKER: You know, um, landmark as in my own classroom or landmark like something that happened in the nation? Page 11 �JACK: Basically anything that you, I know you discussed more of your family when you were younger but in the nation or... DECKER: You know, landmark events that kind of changed my opinions, really, um, would be the "I have a dream" speech by Dr. Martin Luther King I was probably 8 or 9 at the time, that made quite an impression on me, um, in my classroom I think just, you know, seeing, seeing that it doesn't matter what kids look like they're still kids, um, I think that's made a huge difference in my life. But, as far as like something, you know like, getting or having a black president or something like that will you know, I'm like, it's about time. You know, are you kidding me, you know, slavery ended in 1860s so you know, um, I guess that, you know, the big things for me would have been like my teacher and Dr. Martin Luther King's speech. JACK: Do you have any students that in particular stood out to you or I know over the years you said that your own children have changed your views on teaching, or, how you deal with students in the classroom, anything like that? DECKER: um not necessarily just... Just you know, like I can remember this one guy he had hair longer than I ever dreamed of having and there all the boys were wearing their hair short. I just remember thinking, I mean that changed my way of looking at people with long hair, guys with long hair. And having a student, you know say, you know my dreams for my future are this and knowing that this kid is one of those gay kids who's just trying to slide under the radar so he's making up what he thought I would want to hear, but you know that makes, that changes the way I feel about kids and I just think you know, just being with kids all the time. As I said, kids are kids are kids and I felt that way around the world; people are people are people nobody's my enemy necessarily, um, you know just because they come from a different country doesn't mean they're my enemy, their government might be an enemy of my government but people in Afghanistan are not my enemies. JACK: Would you say your views are constantly changing or your... DECKER: They're improving. JACK: Yeah. DECKER: Growing, yes, I have a lot of years left hopefully to grow but I'm getting better and better. Like I said, when I first started teaching I probably have some of those same prejudices and things like that and now I'm not afraid to say to kids, hey you know, why, you know that doesn't fly here. We don't talk like that, or you need to apologize or you're not going to act that way. And it's not o.k. that it's o.k. with you and him between you to say those kinds of things, it's not o.k. with me. You know, but I say it in a nice way. You know, instead of, I mean, maybe years ago I would have said it in a meaner way, but now I say it in a very nice way. JACK: You said that there were people in your family that used to be prejudice towards other people, have you seen them change at all? DECKER: Um, one of my brothers would probably fly a Confederate flag if he could. Um, but, you know and it's funny because my mother in law, I wouldn't say she's a prejudice person but she still refers to Page 12 �people that are black as colored. And you know she just never evolved with the times. I had a student last year though, her dad is black and her mom was white and this girl's quite, she's quite white actually and she said I would identify with black and would you want to be called African American and she said no, I'm not African American, I'm an American; a black American and I don't want to be called African American which has been really interesting. But as far as family members go I don't think really, I mean, besides this one brother of mine and I think he's had to evolve, um, he still will say things but not in the same way that he used to because he's had to become more politically correct. My other brother, he's a counselor and he's, he's, he's fairly open minded so, I think that um prejudices, there still are more prejudices toward gender identity and things like that, but I don't anybody would be so rude to in the family to say things. JACK: I know in education a lot of times teachers have to deal with parents, has there been any issues with parents or have you connected with any parents over diversity in school? DECKER: I, um, I think most parents know, I, I, I, a good thing. They know that um, it's a safe place to be, in my room and things like that. So I haven't had to deal with that, um, in a negative way. Just in a positive way. But mostly everybody's just like well thanks for making them work really hard and that type of thing. JACK: Have you had any students come to you and thank you for what you've done and opening your doors and things like that? DECKER: Oh yeah, this one girl gives me a hug like every single day. (Laughing) Oh hi Mrs. Decker. This one junior that I had last year, she is part of GSA, and I am like your fine its great your fine and I think that that group it’s kind of weird for me to connect with that group not because I’m prejudice or anything like that just because you know I am not the teacher in charge of that group but I think that group and the kids in that group have connected with me a lot, and it is like I said this one girl gives me a hug every day and hangs around my room and stuff like that. But I have kids who will come in my room and just eat at lunch. I mean because they don’t have anywhere else to go and I am like ok yeah know come on in my room and eat and sit there. And yeah know this year I don’t, but I have had like foreign exchange students who will just hang out until they got a group they could meet and things like that. So, I think that they just know I am a friend, and I am a teacher, and even though I work them really hard. Most kids I tell them they are not going to like me when they have me, but the year after they have me they will like me. But no, I think most kids know I am very safe. I guess the only prejudice I have is that they are not allowed to wear Western Michigan stuff in my classroom. It was college day today because it is our spirit week, and this one girl walks by and says Mrs. Decker I almost wore my Western Michigan shirt just to bug you. I went to Central and Grand Valley. But no, I think that you know I do have kids that come to me and kids feel comfortable with me. And I like I said I but a GSA sign up and I put and FCA sign up if I had to and a diversity club sign up, so I just think everyone feels pretty comfortable. But, I don’t know that that was true twenty years ago. So, I think I have changed. JACK: I know that you mentioned that you have adopted children. What led you to adoption? Page 13 �DECKER: Umm…You know even when I was little I think that in the back of my mind I thought I would do that. I thought I was going to grow up and be a missionary or something like that. But some of those countries have really big bugs. And that’s the truth. But you know when my husband and I weren’t able to have children we had no problem; we wanted to have children so we were willing to adopt. But I’ll have to say that before our son was born and he is twenty- two the doctor who had been my OBGYN person moved out to Wautoma, Washington and she called us with a possible adoption, and the child was going to be black. And I said we can’t do that. And she said I am so surprised I thought you could love any child. I said I could love any child but we were living in Newaygo we weren’t living in Grand Rapids. We were living in Newaygo, Michigan and I don’t think that child in Newaygo, Michigan in this day and age can be accepted. I said I will not do this to a child, and at this point in time we had no plans to move anywhere else. My husband worked at Gerber in Fremont and I was a sports reporter covering sports in that area and we had no plans to move. So, then I said no I won’t adopt that child just because it won’t be good for that child. Now living in Grand Rapids and Rockford it would not have been a problem at all. Then, when our daughter when she was going to be born and we were chosen to be her birth parents we went through Bethany Christian Services for Andrea. I said the only person who we need to call and say is this ok is my mom. I said can you love this Asian child or are you going to reject this Asian child. So we just wanted to have children and things like that. And race would not have made any difference, but location made a difference. We had a pretty honest feel for that situation; there were no black kids in Newaygo. So, being a black child at that time was not going to be well received. So, we just knew that. JACK: Have you felt any discrimination toward your adopted child Andrea? Is that… DECKER: You know I did not. I did not. And I had known about it till years later that a parent said did you know a student called her a derogatory term. And she never told me that. She was always very good at handling her things and things like that. And I said no. So then I asked her about that and I said well what happened with this; this like last year and what happened and she said yeah so and so called me a spic, and I said she didn’t even get her derogatory term correct you’re not Hispanic yeah know. That’s a derogatory term for someone who is Hispanic and that. So I said well what was your reaction and she said well I just decided that that person wasn’t really a friend. Then, a couple years later I found out that there was a little bit more to it than that because she wrote a paper when she was a senior and I said you never told me any of this. And so there was not necessarily that kind of terminology and it was some other things like that, but she was always good at handling that. But I think she pretty much grew up white. Yeah. And not because we didn’t like when the girls were little I put them in summer class for a week and they learned Vietnamese. Do you remember that at all? JACK: No DECKER: No. (Laughter) Andrea learned the Vietnamese, and she has connected in the last years with her birth mom. Who lives in um Texas and she a half sister and two half brothers, and she met the half sister this summer that is fifteen years old and things like that. But their white too because their birth mom was adopted straight out of Tycoon and was raised in the US by a white, English School teacher. So, she was raised pretty white too. Not like we tried to take her to Buddhist temples and things like Page 14 �that. Yeah know we never did anything like that. And our son is Caucasian. So, um but I don’t think she felt really prejudice against do you? You’d no better than I do. JACK: She said she feels like a white person. DECKER: Absolutely I am sure she feels like a white person; she grew up very white. JACK: And she went to Michigan State? DECKER: She is at Michigan State. JACK: She is. DECKER: And her dorm; her first dorm was totally integrated. People from everywhere. But I don’t think she met many people. I think pretty much her roommate was dad was white mom was black they got along great and things like that. I think she mixes well with various races. But she is still probably hanging out with white people because she is living with white people. So. Is there anything else? JACK: Where do you think the members of the diverse student body have made the most progress in the school system? DECKER: I would probably have to say acceptance. Right. It is interesting, we used to stereotype somebody, if you’re this color your good at this sport or that sport or something like that. And I just think that it’s a huge mix and everybody just mixes in at Rockford and I think just that just being accepted is where we have made the most progress. JACK: Where do you think the least amount of progress has been made? As far as you said that most gay kids still try to fly under the radar. DECKER: Yeah I think that is where the least progress has been made. For somebody who is a different gender identity. Racial isn’t a big deal, but genderism is a deal. JACK: So you would say this community has become a lot more tolerant. I don’t know if you would go as far as saying that don’t mind but they like a gay or lesbian population or something like that. So, why would you say that these students are still just trying to get out of there without being noticed? DECKER: I think it’s a societal thing. I think it’s still that society is not accepting or the different and I don’t think it is so much the students. We have had some kids that are openly gay, who were incredibly popular. So, I don’t think it’s the students so much, it’s a societal thing. I don’t think you are going to get beaten up in the bathroom because he’s gay or she is gay. And I would say it is probably the guys who are gayer that slide under the radar and the girls don’t really care. It is hard to know, girls are friendly with each other anyways, I mean it’s not just like you will see someone who is just best friends hanging out or putting their arm around each other. So I don’t think it is as noticeable with girls as it is with guys. Looking at it is a societal thing. JACK: Would you say that that is less in Michigan? You know compared to a different state like California, or Chicago. You don’t think that that would have much of an issue as in west Michigan? Page 15 �DECKER: I would say I think it is huge in west Michigan. It’s just a real conservative this side of the state. Which is good and which is bad. But it is changing, because we are forced to change. I would say your generation changes the most because of the media influence. With the media it is no big deal. The shows that are on today that you watch would have been unheard of when I was growing up. The people, the people you see living together and you see people who are actually gay or are pretending to be gay you see that a lot. And so I just think that your generation is changing things. JACK: In a good way? DECKER: I think it is a great way. Absolutely. People are People and People. Somewhere I learned along the line that judging is not good. I am not going to be judging someone because of who there are. I really don’t try to judge people because of their gender identity or something like that. I try not to. And yeah I still want people to have some of my same conservative views, but as far as…people are meant to be loved. JACK: So you don’t think bullying is a problem in Rockford or west Michigan at all? At some schools they bullying this huge thing; I never really saw it at my high school. DECKER: I don’t think so. I mean I have never had someone come to me and say I have been bullied or anything. I mean I don’t think so. I don’t even think when we have a three or four classrooms with special education kids and I don’t think those kids are bullied. They are just maybe left alone. But I don’t think they are bullied. I don’t think kids are mean to them. I think overall we are a pretty nice society. JACK: What kinds of changes do you hope to see in the future? DECKER: Well I would like to see more diversity as far as staff. Uh, I think that’d be great, you know, I would feel really uncomfortable if I like went to a school and everyone was not my race; you know it would be nice to have somebody, a secretary, somebody in the counseling office, somebody, you know, coaching; I think I think all the coaches are white, even, even all the football coaches, the basketball coaches, you know, you name it, whatever we have, everybody the custodians, nothing that’s all pretty homogenized. So, I think it would be nice to change; bring some people in that are qualified. See somebody, see a teacher in a wheelchair, you know, and um we had somebody apply one time, that’s all I remember, I don’t even think, I don’t think people even apply to Rockford sometimes; they probably think it’s a real white society. I would like to see that change. JACK: How do you see that change taking place? DECKER: Very slowly. The only way it’s going to change is if people just start, people who are more diverse than what we have just start applying and applying and applying and eventually, you know, you have got to say, “come on, these people are qualified.” I mean you can’t be turning those away. But, I think that maybe if we had somebody different in, um, the administration or something like that, um, but, I don’t know; it’s just going to change really slowly, because it’s just the way we are. I don’t think we are necessarily not hiring people who are diverse, but I think most diverse people would probably not apply at Rockford or they aren’t related to someone who is already in the system, to tell you the truth, I mean we have a lot of people – there is a lot of nepotism at Rockford, you know like an assistant Page 16 �superintendent whose son is a principal and whose wife does this and this and then they have family friends that they get in, I mean I’m not even sure how I got in… yeah, I know that I got in because the principal at one of the middle schools had gone to my high school and the principal at the high school was a teacher at my high school: they knew me and they knew me as a sports reporter. And they knew, well she was a decent sports reporter, we will get here in and it looks like a choux. So, I think that’s how I got in, I don’t know. Um I don’t know. I was one of the people hiring, or interviewing people for hiring and it was all white people. So, the only way it will change is if people start applying, and keep applying and keep applying. We had a student teacher last year, one student teacher, and I have had an assistant teacher one time that was a really nice girl. A gal who was black, and we had a student teacher last year; and I thought for sure that we would hire her. She was really great, but we are not hiring anybody. So that makes a difference too. JACK: Do you think that maybe Rockford doesn’t have the diversity in teachers and the staff at the school because the community isn’t diverse? DECKER: Probably, probably not even with school of choice we are getting a few people coming in, but the community is not very diverse either. No, I don’t think there is much diversity at all; do you? So, that’s probably it. It would be nice to see the community become a little bit more diverse; people move in. It’s a really nice small town. <pause> Do you want me to say something controversial? [Laughing] JACK: Do we want to talk about education a little bit too? Well, we discussed in class about the education system and some faults and some positives, but we were wondering maybe some of your views of the standards that you have to live up to as a teacher… and the government standards if they are different and the government influence on the system. Just elaborate. DECKER: First of all, I don’t think that some of the people in the government who are coming up with these standards really have any understanding of what it is like in the classroom. Now they have decided that the principal should evaluate each teacher twice a year. So, we have three principals in our building and we probably have about 130 teachers. So, if you look at that, and they are dividing it up, you know you get thirty, you get forty, you get forty, you get forty-five or whatever. So it means that they are trying to come into the classroom twice a year. And it sounds great, it really sounds like, woah, yeah those teachers should be evaluated twice a year; but they also have all of their other administrative positions too. And like last year I was evaluated and they are supposed to spread in out throughout the year. So, the assistant principal; I said to my husband with nine days to go, “He hasn’t been in yet, I bet he is not going to come in because he is going to be going over to an elementary and becoming a principal.” So I saw him on like a Thursday and I said, “Are you planning on coming in to my classroom at all?” and he said, “Yep, I’ll be in tomorrow. What are you doing?” And I said, “Okay, well we are going to be doing a quiz and we are going to have food because we had this one thing going on,” and then I said, “and I will be talking about Lord of the Flies with my tenth graders.” And he said, “Okay, great. I’ll come in.” So he came in and sat through the quiz, had a doughnut or something like that; and then he never stayed to see me teach. And so then, the next week; we are running out of time. We are basically to exam week. And I saw him again and said, “Are you coming back in?” and He said, “Yep, what are you Page 17 �doing tomorrow?” And I said, “Well I’m giving the test. We just finished The Things They Carried and we just finished Lord of the Flies, so I’m giving tests in those classes.” And um, he said, “Well, what about Monday?” And I said, “Well, we are going to watch the Lord of the Flies and we are going to be watching a movie on the Vietnam War because now we are at exam week. We are not going to teach two days before exams, you know. We are going to do something low key. And he goes, “Okay, well I will come in for the test.” Well, I’m not teaching during the test, I hand out the test and oh she did a great job like that (motions applause). So he evaluates me and I said, “You got this wrong.” I said, “You praised me on an area I’m not that strong at: contacting parents; because once we went an automated system where all the grades are online and the parents can see things, they basically told parents: the principal basically said, “If your kids are doing well in school, you don’t have to come to conferences.” So people quit coming, and now everybody can see everything online. The kids know, they come into class, I put grades in before school and they come into class second hour and say, “I saw my grades online.” So everybody knows everything. I am not great at connecting parents if their kids aren’t doing well. You know, if they’re failing yes, but if they are getting a D I don’t necessarily contact them because they can see it. Why do I? You know, if they are interested they can contact me, and I said “but you messed up in this one because I am very proficient on how I evaluate them in many different ways.” And I said, “So you messed up on that one.” He had the dates wrong and everything because I think he was trying to cover his tail because he was supposed to spread them out and he came in basically like five days apart. And I said that I am going to impend a letter to tell you those things that you do not have on this sheet that qualify me, you know, as a proficient teacher. And so now they are supposed to come in twice a year, one announced and one unannounced, and one of the math teachers said, “You know we are going to have to provide every one of the benchmarks that we’re meeting with the states says we are going to meet.” Rockford is an excellent system, but we don’t all have these benchmarks memorized that we are supposed to. So now, if he tells me that he is coming in on Thursday or if he doesn’t tell me, and he walks into my class and he says, “You’ll have those benchmarks on my desk by the end of the day.”, I can’t do that because I don’t- that is not how I do my lesson plans. I have these huge folders and there are things that I add every year or change every year, but I don’t necessarily qualify them by a bunch of benchmarks; but I know that when kids leave my classroom I am doing a good job because I’ve asked them: “Is there anything? What can I do differently?” I just had an email with a girl who is at Western. I said, “Mary, let me know what I could do differently to make you that much better of a student.” You know, she is a freshman, so I haven’t heard back from her; but I always ask kids, and I asked this one kid and I said, “Did I prepare you for college?” and he said “No, Mrs. Decker.” And I said, “What do you mean?” and he said, “College is so much easier than your class ever was.” So, it’s like why do, I know I am meeting those benchmarks. And there are ninety-two benchmarks where there used to be for English, and when I was at the Rockford Freshman Center, our principal told us we had to meet all ninety-two that year. We’re like, “You’re nuts!” We can’t do that. This one benchmark has like ten different areas of writing that you are supposed to cover. That would be a year’s worth of benchmarks. You know like: character analysis, autobiography and narrative, a research paper, you name it. One benchmark could take the year to cover. And there were ninety-two of them. And now they say, “Well, no. You cover those ninety-two in four years.” Well okay, but what qualifies, because my students are reading The Crucible aloud; so does that qualify as I am teaching them how to speak? Not really; but, they are learning intonation, things like that. So, I think it’s nuts. They just told us that all the M.E.A.P. Page 18 �qualifiers or the M.M.E. qualifiers: how Rockford did last year, how many of our kids were proficient last year; next year or this year when they take it because the standards have been raised this high, only 76% of them would be proficient versus 93% of them. Now if Rockford, which is a fairly consistent, stable society and community; if we can’t meet those benchmarks - how is inner-city Detroit going to meet those benchmarks? And plus, we have computers, and our teachers have computers in our classrooms; most my kids have, you know, cell phones and iPhones and stuff like that. I talked to my friend who is a teacher at Sacred Heart, and they do not even have computers in their classrooms for the teachers. And it is like if we have that and somebody up in Everett, Michigan doesn’t have that; how can they meet those benchmarks if we’re worried about them. Inner-city Grand Rapids-- You know; how can they meet those benchmarks? Yeah, it’s great, but you’re not changing the family structure; so how can you expect the teachers. We’re expected, our special ed. kids are expected to as well as our regular ed. kids on the ACT. Really? I had a girl last year with a seventy-four I.Q. She could read a paragraph and not remember a thing that she read at the end of it; and they are supposed to meet the ACT requirements or else our school is not proficient and if my special ed. students don’t get the same score that you would get on the ACT than I am going to be evaluated differently? You know like, you’re not a very good teacher. She has a seventy-four I.Q.! And I can’t help if people have lazy butts either. I have slums in my classroom that sit there and ask me to entertain them. So, I just think the state: good intentions, we lost our manufacturing so now we are going to be a smart state, gene pool hasn’t changed, you know, let’s be realistic here. So, I just think the government should be taking care of the economy and work on the bad schools and let the good schools continue to do a great job. JACK: Do you think that maybe, with the state having such high standards is, in a way, hurting us? DECKER: Yeah because I don’t think that we can meet those high standards. This is a manufacturing state. And, I think we have, years ago, a lot of people would go through school and kind of get through school and then go to manufacturing positions and things like that, and I think that nation-wide I think the standards are hurting us. We are competing against people; I think like Switzerland has some of the highest standards and they meet those, but they don’t ask their special ed. kids to take those. When you see those polls where the United States is way down here and those other countries are way up here, they usually take just the cream of the crop and give those kids the test. And I think the standards are hurting us. I just think it is making us look dumber and dumber and dumber. And in some ways society is getting dumber. JACK: So you’re saying that at Rockford they make all the special ed. students take the ACT, even the ones with like Down syndrome? DECKER: No we don’t have any, I think we have one student that might be slightly downs; um, other than that they have learning disabilities and some low I.Q.’s. We do have a couple self-contained classrooms. They get-- Somebody will like read it to them or something like that, but it’s still the remembering. If you would have to study a month’s worth of notes before any exam, you know how hard that is. Now we are asking them to read and just cognitively understand something that they might read the sentence and they don’t even understand it. So, I think the government is well meaning, but I don’t think it is necessarily realistic. Page 19 �JACK: One of our big focuses in class lately has been about textbooks and information being altered or changed or showing the positivesDECKER: Oh instead of showing some of the negative things JACK: And I know that you’re an English teacher, and you read a lot of books- do you notice that? DECKER: The books we read are fairly old books. JACK: Sadly, this is where our recording device died. The remaining part of the interview, we discussed how Jackie did not really see that the books her students read in English class were biased, but she did agree to the idea that all textbooks should relay all of the facts, not just a positive portrayal of history. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1e24581e1e75528d1ec66da24b68fab7.mp3 261bc57128a099ad8d34bb05bcad4d11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Decker_Jacqueline Title A name given to the resource Jacqueline Decker audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Decker, Jacqueline Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jack, Emma Description An account of the resource Born March, 3rd 1959 to parents Richard and Eve Holland. Youngest of three children with brothers Gary and Terry. Grew up in Grand Rapids, graduating from Crestwood high school. She then continued her education at Central Michigan University with a major in English and a minor in psychology. Ran cross country and track and field on the varsity teams. Met her husband (now of 30 years), Steven Decker in the dorms on campus in her freshman year, his sophomore year. Was married at age 22 and moved to Fremont, Michigan following her husband. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Age discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1c0b68ede4de520b37a6a69daa6608a.pdf d8d9bddd88c90ede36718c3e84dfeae4 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: James Morton Interviewers: Seph Morkes Supervising Faculty: Kim Buechek Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/16/2012 Runtime: 00:41:58 Biography and Description James Morton talks about his family’s experience immigrating to the United States during the big flight of Puerto Ricans of the 1950s. He also discusses his experiences with discrimination in both Queens, New York and West Michigan. Transcript Seph: I am Joe Morkes. I am interviewing James Morton. James, would you, uh, be so kind as to tell me about yourself? James: How much do you want to know? Seph: Well, I’ll probably go through it, but um, any, anywhere you want to start. Because I’m going to ask you where you were born, family life, stuff like that. So you could just take it from the beginning. James: Well, I was born November 11, 1986, uh, in Saint John’s Hospital in Queens, New York. But I was raised from the very next moment in Manhattan. I stayed in Manhattan until I left for college at the University of Buffalo in New York. And then I currently live in Allendale, Michigan pursuing my Masters Degree at Grand Valley State University. I am the son of James Edward Morton, Sr. and Carmen ***. Uh, my mom is of Puerto Rican background born in, um, Guadal, Puerto Rico. And my father is of African American descent and was born in Brooklyn, New York. My parents split when I’m.. Must have been around 2 or 3. So I was raised in a primarily single parent household however my dad was still around, so.. Weekends and that kind of thing. Uh, raised predominately by women. Ah, my mom, my older half sister, and my grandmother, and an assortment of cousins and aunts. Seph: Ok. Um, now you said, uh, your mom was of Puerto Rican descent? James: Uh huh, yep. Page 1 �Seph: Now, is she a first generation, um, Puerto Rican? Um, how was that, like how? James: I guess I would be technically first generation, born here. Seph: Ok. James: I guess I don’t really know how the first and second, um, works. I guess I would be first generation, American born, Puerto Rican. But she was born there, again, in Guadal, Puerto Rico, and I think she moved here, I think she moved to New York when she was 8 years old. Seph: Ok. James: So, during the 50s, during that big flight of Puerto Ricans… Seph: Gotcha. James: … to the United States. Seph: Ok. Um, now, um, are you bilingual, then? James: Naaa, not officially, I wouldn’t say I’m fluent in Spanish but I know when it’s being yelled at me. Seph: Ok. James: No, I mean I’ve obviously picked up some given that half of my family speaks it but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t claim that I’m bilingual but as far as Spanish, that’s the closest other language that I know. Seph: Mmm hmm. Ok. Um. Now I guess, um. Do you know where, um, your parents met? Um. James: Yea, um, they actually worked, um, I think it was landlord and tenant court for Manhattan. Um. My dad, actually, I believe substituted for her supervisor one day, something like that, and that’s how they initially met. And then, um, they met, um, in the criminal court system. The United Courts of New York. Seph: Ok. Very cool. Um. James: Oh, the Unified Court System of New York. I think that’s what it’s officially called. **** Umbrella companies. **** Seph: Now how about, um, childhood, like as far as schools? Um. Did you go to a public private school? How about telling me a little about that? Page 2 �James: I guess for my first bout with schooling, I went to this program that they had started because my mom worked for the court system so they had this program called “Fed Kids” which was essentially a day care program for employees of both New York State and the Federal Government, uh, essentially day care for civil servants. And, uh, I must have started that, I mean, I may have been, two or three I guess, it’s at whatever age you start interacting with people. And, uh, I mean, that was obviously finger painting and toys. But then I started going to Catholic school in pre-kindergarten. And I assume that must have been, maybe, that might have been three, maybe three into four, because I have a late birthday in November, so. I was always the youngest kid in my class for the most part. And um, did pre-K and Kindergarten at Immaculate Conception School, which was very old school Catholic, and complained about it pretty much every day. I used to stage escapes. I was once found, uh, trying to push open the door at the front of the school. Meanwhile my class was on the 2nd floor, so, no one knows how I got away. Um, and then went to public school for 2 years. That’s where I learned how to fight and to curse and how to be a terrible human being. So I actually volunteered to go back to Catholic school because I realized I was pretty much on the fast track to hell at that point. And, uh, in 3rd grade returned to Immaculate Conception School. It was a K through 12, no a K through 8, and stayed there until I graduated in 8th grade. Then I went to LaSalle Academy, which was a Catholic High School, um, run by the Christian Brothers, which were started by, uh Saint Jean Baptiste de LaSalle and, um, I really enjoyed it. Um, my four years it was one of those, it was, it was very tough obviously, it was a very particular years in a person’s life. Definitely grow and learn a lot. Um, girls were introduced into the mix sorta, but it was an all boy’s school, so, uh. Actually, it’s in hindsight, I actually appreciate that because I feel like it actually kept me focused. And um school wasn’t so bad. Then after that, I went to the University of Buffalo for 5 years. Now I’m at Grand Valley for grad school. Seph: Ok. Um. Then, uh, I’ll probably get a little bit more specific with that, um, as, I might, I might jump back to, um before college, but uh, as far as University of Buffalo, uh, what made you decide on that? What made you decide to go to the University? Was it something that was expected? Was it something that you… *** James: Essentially, uh, I feel that universities and colleges, at least from, I guess the New York perspective.. From like a city like New York where there’s a high demand for higher education, um, and is such a financial center of the world that going to college, it was expected. I mean, I uh, I would have to say that I went to school with a lot of people at, um, at Buffalo that probably were not cut out for college but you weren’t really given too many other options. I remember even for my graduating class I think there were only two or three guys that were just going straight into the work-force, you know, like obviously, I feel it is generally less common, um, but I feel just like in a Metropolitan area like that that Page 3 �it’s, even, you know less so. And um, I actually chose Buffalo kind of, it sounds terrible, but um we have the State University of New York application, but um, because we have our state schools, and you’re supposed to choose 4 schools. I had Stonybrook University was my number one. Um, the University at Albany was my number two. And, uh, SUNY Gennesea *** which was in the middle of nowhere but is a fantastic school was my third. Those were the solid three, like, those were the ones I really wanted to go for and then I was all like, I need a fourth one and I heard Buffalo was alright. So I put down Buffalo and um I get in. They’re interested. They think, um, they think I’m doing um, I could do well. And I got into, um, well I got into all of them actually and just decided… I feel like Buffalo would be a nice change, that it would be different and um, and it’s also the second largest city in New York and I felt um it would be less drastic of a change from home to Buffalo. Uh, that was entirely incorrect. Um, the difference in population, I think… New York City was somewhere around 9 million and Buffalo was about 2 or 3. Seph: Right. James: Which is sounds foolish, but. But uh, it made a huge difference. Also it was an entirely different walk of life. But um, I mean, it was interesting and I’m glad I ended up there. I mean it obviously had its ups and its downs, but. I would say generally it was a nice second home, you know, I’d say for the time being. Seph: Um. When you were in high school, did you play any sports? Or even before? James: No. I guess, um, as far as through the high school, um, theater club, um like drama club was actually my big thing. But, if I had a say a sport throughout high school, um, martial arts I guess would be my sport. Um, I wasn’t really into it for the competitive purpose. I was more into it, I guess, I mean obviously for self-defense. Not that I had really any, any issues with that. It wasn’t like I had the uh hard knock life upbringing, but, um, I really respected the idea and the culture that kind of came along with it, so. It became a really big part of my life. I kept up a little bit during um, my undergraduate at Buffalo, but, just through all the other stuff that I had to do, it kind of died down a little bit. Seph: Was that, um, something you did outside of school? James: Yea. I, uh, I took Kung Fu at a school. It was, um, it was called **** Kung Fu, it was out of Chinatown. And um, I think their system is like the Black Tiger system or something like that. That was like their specialty. But, um, almost every Kung Fu school does like the, they almost have like the geneds of, you know, like Kung Fu, and then I, um, actually started taking up this martial art called ******** from Indonesia. And um, I learned that. One of my sister’s really good friends, he was a uh, a teacher from the Warrior System. Which is this international group of martial artists that, basically take a Page 4 �little bit from different forms of martial arts and put them together because they feel that all martial arts systems for the most part are pretty incomplete. So, put the strengths of all of them together and put a little bit from here and there and you’d make one martial artist that is better rounded than someone who is married to one system. And uh, eventually got exposed to ****** and it’s such an, it’s such a little known system here that he uh basically started hand-picking students to kinda just start working sort of like out of his house was like the original studio. And um, that’s, uh, that was the last system that I learned from. And I really enjoyed it. I still like, remember some stuff, but um. Yea. So that was my sport, I guess. No football. Unlike everyone, uh, every other guy in Michigan. Seph: And that, um, last system… That was when you were in college? James: No, no, no, that was, uh, I’d say junior and senior year of high school. Seph: Ok. Um, now theater… Is that something that uh, you did all throughout high school? James: Yea, for the, for the most part, uh, I was pretty heavily involved from the get-go. I heard it’s where you met girls, so… Kinda jumped at that. But acting had always been something that I liked doing. I did it a few times, actually, before high school. Um, and I don’t know. I guess it just drew me in and I felt like I was actually pretty good at it so. It was something to do. Seph: Ok. Very cool. And now you said a way to meet girls was a, but you were at an all boy’s school.. James: Right. We had girls come from the other, come from the all girls’ schools. ****** girl spots because…Yea, we didn’t want any guys in dresses. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Seph: Um. Ok. Let’s uh, I might be back to some of that stuff in a little bit. James: Ok. Yea, that’s fine. Seph: Um, but, as far as Western Michigan goes, how did you end up coming to Michigan? How did you end up figuring on Grand Valley? And just tell me about that. James: Uh. I guess I would have to say, uh, embarrassingly enough, my biggest motivation was, I saw Grand Valley compete at a cheerleading Nationals in Daytona. Uh I guess it was what? 3… Yea, about three years ago, I guess. And um, I just saw them and kind of thought cheerleading was a sport that I got into really late in college. Um, I played rugby before that, as you know, and, um, I just thought, well I mean I had thought about obviously school after college, especially because I was a history undergrad, so… There’s not much that you can do with that by itself and I decided that well, maybe I can get this cheerleading thing to start paying for some of my education and I looked into Grand Valley and found Page 5 �that they actually had a Masters of education program for adult and higher ed. It was basically half education, half history. I thought “Wow, that’s actually pretty perfect.” Because I think that I should have some sort of education background as well as history. And, um, I basically, I had a talk with one of my old teammates. I was just looking for something new. I mean at that point I had pretty much outgrown Buffalo. And I wasn’t ready to go back home yet. Not out of an I don’t want to move back in with, you know, my mom, but more of a, I felt like I still had some growing to do and I didn’t think, I didn’t think I was going to get, um, I was going to get back home, so… I had even contemplated just moving somewhere, like maybe like Nebraska, or you know, like one of those white states that we don’t know much about. And then Michigan came up with Grand Valley, so I thought “Grand Rapids? Michigan? Never heard of it. Maybe I should.” ***** should do it. I wanted to see if I could transplant myself to some place and um, you know, make it work. Work around it and see how the rest of the country was and get out of my New York state of mind, so… That’s essentially how I kind of ended up out here. Seph: Ok, and uh… I don’t mean to take a step back, but you mentioned that you cheer. James: Yea. Seph: You mentioned rugby. Um, and a little bit about outgrowing Buffalo… But um, taking a step back to Buffalo, um, how was your experience there? Um, your undergrad experience. Uh, you know, can you tell me any funny stories or anything you want? James: Right. Seph: About how you got into dabbling with rugby and how’d you get into cheer? James: Well, I guess I’ll tell the rugby and cheer stories first because those are, I feel like, the easiest ones. Um, rugby had been one of those sports, growing up in New York City, we had field sports, but not to the same degree as like, I guess, places with space for them. So, rugby had been um that sport that I would randomly catch on tv, you know, like, other like random cable, you know, ESPN like channels that show, those kind of, those kind of channels. And um, I saw rugby and every time I saw it, it was just so exciting. You know, I instantly was just instantly enthralled, just completely, just, it would, all my attention would be invested in rugby and I thought it was the most amazing sport. But, I guess in a sense, coming from the United States, it’s not around the corner, you have to kind of look for rugby. It’s a little more difficult to track down. And um, I would have to say a big downside to places like New York City is because of how, I guess, urban they are. It’s so expensive to do quote unquote like special sports. Like hockey, um, I think to just to join a league is like $3,000 a year or something like that. And that’s just, Page 6 �that’s just hockey, which is something people around here just do for fun. So, um, so rugby had always been something that interested me and then I ended up in Buffalo. Found out that they had a rugby team. And um, one of my fraternity brothers was on it. And so, talked to him and he was just like “Oh, you could come out to a practice.” And that’s how, you know, I got involved. Uh, really loved it. Had nothing, nothing negative about it at all. Like I mean, obviously, there’s like that rowdiness that comes along with rugby but, I didn’t mind it with them so much because they were rowdy, but they were good. So, it was nice to, it was, it was almost like cheating to instantly like walk onto a good team. And, um, obviously, I wasn’t on the A team, like you know, initially, just, you know, kind of went on and the coaches just said to go out there and figure it out. So… I mean it was fun. Um. It was a good season. And then, I, uh, dabbled in um, stand-up comedy, actually, for a while. And the president of our University of Buffalo Stand-Up Comic Society, the acronym UB SUCS, which they never caught on, um, he shows up to one of our meetings one day and he’s telling us, he’s like “Oh, I’m gonna go out for cheerleading tomorrow.” So we’re just like “Wait, what are you talking about?” and apparently his roommate had gotten approached by a girl in the gym. She said that she was a cheerleader and he should come out. So he goes home, and he’s like “This girl asked me to try out for cheerleading so this kid Andrew is all “I’m gonna go out and do it, you know, tell me the time.” So I hear about it, and I’m just like “That’d be brilliant for material. Like I should go to, like I should have a story about cheerleading tryouts that’s like ridiculous, obviously.” So I went there totally for the wrong reasons. Went there entirely to just drudge the hell out of them and make jokes about it and like, actually, you know, just try to push this, like, comedy career, um, off of it. And, um, from day one, it was one of those, like wow, this is actually pretty cool *** and, um, eventually and I didn’t know *** These are teammates that I still value their friendship, like amazingly, today. They’re just, um, some of, I would say, the best friends I ever made in my life and it’s probably how I got pulled into cheerleading. It was basically on a, not even on a, not a dare, just like on a joke, essentially. It was a joke and then I stuck with it. Um, but as far as my experience in Buffalo, I mean, I feel like, for the most part, it was definitely a generic experience, you know, you get like exposed to drinking and stuff, you know, very early. And everyone is like “Oh my God, this is awesome!” But I was part of that, um, small number of people that, I would say after a little bit, I was all like “I’ve had enough of this and I think there’s more to life than getting drunk every night.” And um, it definitely put a lot of weight on me to better myself. Um. Not like I was going down a bad path, but just, um, it definitely gave me the realization that if there was something out there that I wanted, I just had to go out and take it. And I had to work at it. And, if you put the work in or you put, or if you have the drive enough, like anything is possible. Um, I would have to say Buffalo, the University of Buffalo, was a fairly diverse school. Um, majority white, as, I would say that Buffalo is almost like a mid-west colony. So it kind of reminds me of schools around here. But, um, very diverse. Even Page 7 �internationally. Um, my freshman year, I lived on the international floor of my dorm which was because they ran out of rooms for normal people, so.. I ended up there and my roommates- one was from Turkey and one was from Hong Kong. And that was sweaty, so… ** laughter ** So I mean, it was, it was a little rough- the transition in the beginning. It was, I would have to say, one of those first nights in college. Just wasn’t awesome, but, um… I remember, actually, the 2nd night of my college career, um, my roommate had gotten invited to a party at the German house, um, on campus, well, not on, like right off campus and that was, I guess, if anything, that was essentially, like my first party of my freshman year, and everyone was from a different country and like it was, but it was cool. You know what I mean? It was just very different, um, and obviously I thought that I was going to meet like different people at college. Had no idea that it would be like that different so quickly. And, um, then, once I started getting into the swing of things, I started meeting everyone, made stupid freshman mistakes that I will spare from this interview, but, uh… I mean it was, it was good. There was no, um, I didn’t have any I guess, terrible situations, um… I tried the fraternity thing my first semester. You weren’t supposed to because first semester freshman aren’t supposed to pledge at UB. Um, so I thought I was such a bad ass, and… But then I mean, it was weird though, because I remember being in it, and I was in there for maybe 2 or 3 weeks, and I mean, we’re talking about like sleepless nights, just up late doing stupid shit the entire time and um, I like went to, uh, … the fraternity I was pledging had a party and they were just um, ripping on these girls like for no reason. Just ripping on these girls going just like *** our pledge master actually came down and he was like super drunk and he was talking about like these girls that he just, like, “Oh, I got her to blow me, you know, and I just tossed to her the side and like whatever…” And I realized, and I was like “I think the fraternity thing is really cool and all but *** misconstrued notions on how awesome it is.” Um, but I just thought, um, what means more to me? Getting letters on a shirt or being associated with these guys and I told *** “No disrespect, but I don’t think this is for me.” I mean, it was primarily because I thought that they were just terrible people and I figured, like, a fraternity is, like, it, it runs deep. It’s like the closest thing to a family that you have. I don’t want to be “your” family. It’s just not, I don’t, I don’t stand for the same things “you” stand for. So, um, I quit them. Obviously, I was like blacklisted from them the rest of my college career. And uh, then I ended up joining a business fraternity the next year. Um, the next fall, actually. And that was Alpha Kappa Psi (sp??) and I finished through that one. Um, it was co-ed so it was a little bit different. A lot cattier. And um, I mean I liked it because it was a fraternity and I still got that sense of brotherhood and had hilarious stories. I mean I, I feel like I have like classic fraternity stories with um AK Psi (sp??). Um, but I felt like it was a fraternity with purpose. You know, I mean, it wasn’t just a matter of, it wasn’t just a social group, it was a uh, it was a coming together of like-minded people for, I guess, to ah, pursue like personal passions and personal like motivations and um… I really enjoyed it and… Yea, I mean Buffalo was interesting because it wasn’t New York. It Page 8 �wasn’t like New York City at all. Um, it was an entirely different walk of people. Um, one of the girls, actually, from AK Psi (sp?), she told stories, joked around, but she wasn’t joking about how I was her first black friend. And um, actually, um, I dated one girl while I was up there and she was saying that I was pretty much like her third black friend or something like that. Like it always came up. *** Yea, exactly. And um, you know? It was, it was, it was the time, I mean, it was one of those… Yea, I guess class happened, um, for the most part, I was just figuring out who I was and stuff. And um, I guess ironically, um, I kinda became who I was while I was there but I didn’t realize it until I got here. Because, if anything, Michigan has been like the final exam and it’s… I would have to say it’s tough to go somewhere new and not… I guess, and not assimilate completely because, I guess I’ve reached a point in my life where I know certain things about myself that I like or at least I, that I value in my head as good. And… Those are things I just won’t let go of, you know what I mean? I mean it’s… on some degree it could be considered stubborn but I feel… I guess because I’ve been transplanted a couple of times now… You start to grab onto the things you feel identify yourself. You know what I mean? Um, I mean… My skin’s brown, so that’s always a *** for the identity issue but there are certain ideals and certain things I hold, I guess, I guess, I would say I hold dear to my heart that I feel um, you know, define me as a person regardless of like I guess the obvious stuff or you know, like, where I’m from. There’s just like the characteristics or the, uh, principles I hold… that um, I guess you don’t find everywhere. I didn’t realize that was one of those, I thought, I just assumed everyone learned the same set of values— some people just choose to ignore them. But, I have also learned that’s not always the case. And there are other values, you know, there are other values out there that, I mean work for some people, and there are others things that I’ve seen that are good, but, you know, aren’t for me necessarily, so… Seph: Um, actually that leads *** into, um, I mean, how would you, how would you uh, describe your own identity? James: In what respect? Seph: I mean, um, well you were just talking about how there’s things you hold onto and uh make you, I guess, the person that you see yourself as… James: Ok, yea… Seph: And I mean honestly, that could be whatever you want to do with that question. James: Well, I mean, I guess, uh, I’d have to say, I guess there’s, there’s two identities I feel we all have. We all have our American identity and then our universal identity in my opinion, um… As far as identifying myself, I’m… African American, Hispanic American, American American. And uh, I mean, Page 9 �but I would have to say, universally I’m I guess, in a sense it was like hard to accept, but like at the end of the day, um, as far as like upbringing goes, it was very ordinary, um, you know, I feel like I, I could be wrong but I feel like I had an upbringing just like anybody else, um… You know, forced to go to church every Sunday. You know, hating on it every Sunday. Um, you know, learning about all these traditions and all these, I guess, um, traits of gentlemanly conduct that were like infused into my brain and the thing I didn’t get was I didn’t see it anywhere else and I didn’t know what was like going on. And um… Oh, I forgot to mention this before… My dad is, um, my dad is 88 years old, so.. my dad’s up there. And um, I mean, truth be told, it was like one of those things that, when I was younger, you don’t notice the difference but I realize, now that I’m older, THAT definitely was like a huge thing because like my dad’s coming from like literally the old school. He’s coming from a very, like, almost structured gentlemanly uh code of conduct, you know, that we don’t have anymore and you know, I mean it really is.. um… And now we do the whole “We know what you meant.” Or you know, just get to the point… Like we almost have less patience for this almost societal dance, I guess that *** you know like being a gentleman is. And um, a lot of it communicates in the way that I dress and a lot of it communicates in um, like formal attire and stuff. Like I don’t *** all the weird little rules and stuff, and I don’t mean this in a condescending way at all, most people my age don’t know that they would even have to look for rules, you know, regarding this. Um even uh, even I would have to say, uh, like dating… There are certain things I just um, won’t do.. One thing that apparently blows the mind of everyone around here is um, I guess I come from a background where, let’s say I have a friend and he’s in pursuit of Girl X, or something like that. No matter how beautiful, or how amazing Girl X is, my friend has made it clear that is the girl for him and he’s chasing after her… I’ll, I’ll help him… I won’t pursue that. I feel like it’s ungentlemanly to go for another man’s girl, in a sense. And I don’t mean that in an ownership way at all. But I feel that it is more like a respect from one individual to another. Um, also, um in treatment of women… I feel like there’s, I’d have to say I’m an owner of like a modified chivalry. Um, I feel that women should be respected. Uh, and as far as, uh, female roles in society, I’m entirely against subservient women, um, I mean, I came from an all women’s household so, um, I obviously have a different view of the abilities and strengths of women and um… I truly feel that there, um, biologically obviously there’s a lot of difference, but, as far as ability goes, I mean if you’re thinking about sports, yes there’s a few hurdles that girls have to get past that, um, men don’t, but… um, for the most part I feel, you know, they’re, I guess almost to an extent *** should almost treat women better than men because I’m coming from a different, I’m almost educated from that old school on how to treat women. Um, but even in, um, the way you approach people, um, like not gender specific at all, uh, one thing I notice I do is, if I’m wearing a baseball cap or like that… When I talk to someone, like, let’s say at a store and I need to ask someone a question, I always take off my hat. And it’s a very weird thing. I mean even I noticed it Page 10 �like once in a Subway, you know, like restaurant. I take my hat off and ask someone a question, or like I tell them my order type of thing. I just feel there are certain little, there are certain little like, quirks to me that I um attribute to my upbringing and stuff. I mean it’s one of those, at first I thought it was weird, but I guess now, I guess now that I don’t see it so much I kind of value it as being a part of me. Um, little stuff like that. I’m sure there’s thousands of more little instances but, I mean I guess I’d have to identify myself as a generally good and moral person. Obviously not perfect at all. Um, but I feel that generally my motivation is the betterment of myself on the, you know, universal scale- like, so, morally, academically, professionally, etc. Um, and, I mean, as far as cutthroat nature, especially in the business world today, I’m just not about that. I, I’m.. I guess I’m more, I guess I’m more focused on like harmony and peace… Not in a hippie way, but, obviously I accept that, you know, things can’t always be happy… Things can’t, no, everyone can’t always win. But, you know, there’s no excuse for mistreating other people. I mean, even if they deserve it sometimes, I mean, essentially there’s, you know, there’s some occasions where there, *** essentially but, um, like just little stuff like being rude.. I just feel life’s too short to treat anyone less than anyone else in a sense, you know. Don’t just talk to people when you want something from them. Don’t just talk to people when you want their money. You know, just talk to people. In a sense, just enrich your human experience. That’s kind of, I guess, how I identify myself as just being a, I guess, in a sense, almost like a humanist romantic kind of thing, like… Everything is beautiful. Everything is terrible but you just have to make it work and get along, you know, make things keep going. Essentially. Seph: Ok. That’s awesome. Um. And then, I mean, I guess, I’m going to ask you a few more things. I don’t mean to pigeon hole you but, it’s just uh. Um. That was great. Um. But I guess, um, you mentioned a little bit um, on sort of religious upbringing. Do you… uh… how do you feel about your religion? How would you say *** ? James: Religious upbringing was uh, it was a little, it was a little awkward, I guess, because I was born and baptized Catholic. My mom was Puerto Rican, so… Obviously any place in the world that is Spanish influenced is Catholic for the most part. They were very good on selling Jesus and Company. But, um, when I was about, I must have been 5, my uh, one of my mom’s good friends invited her to her church and it was a, uh, nondenominational church. Um, however, I believe it had more of a Pentacostal style so, Protestant, and um… My mom went to it. And my mom is very, very religious. Very, she was very strict Catholic but she played it by the book, you know, she was very structured, you know, everything had to go along with uh what the Bible said. Once she got this experience of this more, in a sense organic, religious experience to her, she converted to Protestantism and um, I was caught in the middle because I was going to Catholic school. So I’m going to Catholic school 5 days a week and then I’m going to Bible Page 11 �school at this new place one day a week trying to relearn everything that I just learned over the last week essentially. And um, obviously when you’re 5, you get dragged into whatever your parents get dragged into, so… I, uh, became, uh, Pentacostal eventually I was baptized in the Pentacostal church. And, um, I would say up until high school is about when my mom was a little, I guess, less adamant about me going to church. Made it more about oh, if you want to go. And um, it would be one of those things where once in a while I’d like go, um… Actually just had a flashback to the one night, there was a very special like teen focus thing, um, I must have been 16 and I think that was the first night I ever got drunk. So I didn’t go and I felt really terrible cuz when my mom asked me how it was and I said “Ya had to be there,” and… Which is the most, uh, appropriate lie, but… *** (laughter) But it was um, I guess it’s one of those things where, um… Went to Buffalo *** obviously more churchy things. I eventually just kind of just lost the taste for um my mom’s church. I, I didn’t really like the people that were there. At least the more obvious people that were there and I, um, kind of resting in a school of thought where, I mean, I went to Catholic school my whole life. I, um, I know all of the moves, um you know all of the ideas, I know all of the principles and… I always, I guess, I always refer to myself as a freelance Christian, where if anyone were to ask me what am I, I would say a Christian. I wouldn’t deny it or anything like that. It’s like, nothing ever changed but I am less vocal about it because, for me personally, it’s kind of just my personal guide. It’s just how, it’s, if anything, it’s a system of morals that I choose as, um, as like my, um, moral structure but… um, I just, I guess I never mix with a group that I’m like that very big into and… Church always gets too religious. It becomes, just, um, it becomes just very routine and very perfunctory. Part of me thinks that’s not really the idea. You know what I mean? I mean I feel like we’re supposed to believe in a living deity doing the same thing at the same time every week may not be exactly what he’s into. And I mean, uh, it could be. I guess that’s like obviously the idea that most people like have. But I feel, if you live your life and, I guess, I, let’s say, let’s take a week out of your life and you can reflect and you see that every interaction you had with someone, a stranger or someone from *** and look at how you dealt with the situation. Look at how you deal with situations placed upon you. What did you act.. I feel if you act kind of with that, um, Christian background, that kind of like moral push behind you, I feel in a sense you’re always at church in a sense. You know what I mean? Like, you don’t just have to just be good because you’re singing songs and you know, doing all the prayers in front of other people. Like if you kind of have that, um, that Christianity in your life and in your normal actions, I feel essentially that’s like the main point, you know what I mean? So… Seph: Awesome. Um. How about, uh, politically? James: Politically what? Seph: Which way do you swing? Page 12 �James: Oh. I mean, it’s weird, actually. I guess if I had to choose for myself, I would have to, probably claim moderate. Which is weird because I’m black. But, um, I feel as far as liberalism goes, I’m definitely more into *** well, I once took a class that was divided into liberalism and conservatism *** Being a conservative is like being a father. You’re not as forgiving as the mother. You want people to kind of like toughen up and get themselves like out of their situations. And then liberalism is more like the mother, the nurturer, the one, oh you know, you fell down, let me help you up… That kind of thing. So obviously programs like welfare, that kind of thing would be under the Liberal umbrella. But, personally I feel there’s a mix. I mean with every dichotomy you can’t ever truly pick one side. I mean, even, I mean even between things like good and bad. I mean yea, you can try to be good all the time, but there’s some situations where you have to be a little rough. You know, you don’t necessarily have to do the nice thing. Well, nice and mean, I guess, would be a little more appropriate than good and bad. But, um, so I would say moderate. I agree that some people, well, I guess that all people should be given the opportunity to have some sort of assistance, uh, especially, I mean economically, like obviously it happens, you know, I mean as far as programs like *** what welfare used to be and like um, obviously are very good in my opinion. I do feel that while given assistance, people should not necessarily be held unaccountable. So, and more of like, I guess like a Republican or a Conservative view… You still have to get yourself out of it, but we’re willing to help you. It’s almost like… It’s like I am a fan of helping those that will help themselves kind of thing. So… I’m kind of right in the middle where, especially, um… Like, uh, I guess, uh, I guess since we’re in Michigan, the whole auto industry situation. Um, I understood and didn’t understand the whole bail out thing. However, I guess, in the long run, I guess I appreciate that it happened because… On the one hand, you can’t, you can’t disregard the well-being of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people based on the wrong-doings of certain corporate head men, you know. But, um, by helping them out, things have actually kind of turned around, so… Like you can’t punish them because of them, but you have to give them the money in order for it to get to them. So there’s almost like a catch-22 type of situation where the people that mishandled the money are the ones that are getting the money again, which, you know, doesn’t make sense, but, um… It sounds as though the federal government held them a lot, um, very accountable for everything that’s going on. I heard that, um, GM is now, um, back to number one car producer, um, brand in the world again. So, I mean, it’s one of those… It worked out, though, I would say it was more of a Liberalist idea. Um, and, I mean as far as the whole, I mean like the big Republican thing is like picking yourself up from the boot straps. Like, oh my family was poor, my grandfather worked really hard, so that’s how we got our money. That kind of thing. I mean that’s like the generic, like, you know, Conservative, like background story. And, um, I guess it’s like one of those things where I’m *** I’ve been in a lot of situations like where uh, you know, I’ve been blessed with a lot of assistance, like, from my family and just like a lot of support, but… when Page 13 �it comes down to actually doing things, like nothing was like handed, you know, to me. Like you have to actually work at it, you actually have to put the effort in. And, um, I guess… Seph: Well…I heard you were a vegetarian… James: well a pescetarian; I had the unfortunate duty of cleaning out a meat locker filled with rotten meat. Back in August my mom got our apartment painted and the painters forgot to re-plug the freezer and I am the one who discovered it and so obviously as a service to my mom, I cleaned it up and it was terrible. So ever since then I chose not to eat meat; just one of those…I was kind of traumatized and just thought: I don’t feel comfortable eating anything that could become what I saw so…I am a pescetarian, and I guess I realized that in a weird way, I kind of justified being a pescetarian after the fact of becoming one, just to see if there were any good enough reasons to return back to it; to meat eating rather, and I actually realized it sounds dumb...but I guess…you always hear about all the hormones and additives that they add to...rather that they put into beef and chicken and um I’d have to say in my daily life I feel: I guess I feel better, its easier to wake up in the morning; you don’t feel so crappy or lousy the next day and I mean its one of those where it could be a placebo effect or I guess I like to think that its not given that I wasn’t expecting it and then after a while I just kind of felt: ohh I feel a little better, um I don’t feel as lousy, I mean not that I woke up every morning feeling achy, but I just didn’t really feel…I guess as held down as I had previously and uh I like to attribute that to the… I guess lack of all the other stuff in my diet and being a pescetarian had an inadvertent advantage where as far as going to McDonald’s and stuff there is nothing for me there…so you kind of just cut out your crappy eating just by getting that. And I mean again, that just comes down to food and regulations and that kind of stuff but I mean I guess if I had to have a view on it: I understand that obviously preserving food but I guess I disagree with the effects on my body, that I assume are occurring…so I am not an obnoxious vegetarian. I don’t bash people that eat meat; I don’t try to talk people out of it at all. If I have people ask me, I’ll tell them but I mean I try to keep it pretty flexible; its easy to eat around stuff…I mean every restaurant has salads luckily and usually does have fish, so its pretty easy. Seph: Uh…well I guess last question on identity and this can be background or economically…how was growing up? What kind of…I guess…you know, rich? Poor? James: well, I guess from what my mom used to hint, we were the middle-middle class; we were at that point in the middle class where I mean obviously I guess that upper-middle class is not even a bad place to be now a days; like upper-middle class you’re doing really well, living comfortably, you know…you can afford to do things you like to do, but I guess in a sense you still have that discipline where you know…you obviously cannot spend frivolously. Then there’s lower-middle class, where it’s like yay! We Page 14 �live in a good neighborhood but we still live paycheck to pay check. Then there’s middle-middle class, where everyone neglects you; you are not comfortable enough to live like the upper-middle class but your not poor enough to get any help like the lower-middle class, and so it was definitely a struggle…I mean on my mom’s part…like it wasn’t like one of those things where I’ve been working in a store since I was eight years old or anything like that. Um…my mom was very big on providing for my sister and myself…I mean I guess I would have to say as far as how I was raised…I don’t know if it was a product of my upbringing but I guess I never really grew up wanting more but I also didn’t ask for stuff all the time…you know what I mean? Seph: yeah James: So…I guess there’s really nothing else that could have been added to my childhood that I thought would have made it so much better. But I guess I wasn’t the kid who was asking for a playstation…playstation 2, at every holiday when one came out…you know what I mean?...so I would say I was happy; like I said there was never a time when I was just wanting anything just because…I guess it was instilled in me to appreciate what you have…so it was easy like as far as eating and stuff; like there was always food on the table…you know…always family around, so it wasn’t a bad cake to be born into. Seph: Okay, were gonna take a slight change in pace…I want to know about how much you’ve traveled…and if traveling has basically affected your identity or just uh…affected your life…? James: well, I guess as far as far as the obvious travels: moving from New York to Buffalo and Buffalo to here; uh they were different. I guess as far as moving here particularly, it added to my identity because it in a sense identified my identity; it really gave it shape because I was able to contrast it with what was around me. In my life I’ve traveled…I guess I’ve traveled a bit. I have family in California, went over there. I have family in Atlanta…around Atlanta, so I’ve been down there. I’ve been to Philadelphia a few times, went to Texas a couple of years ago, just went to Hawaii last year. I mean I guess as far as the United States goes I still have a lot of sight seeing to do…but uh I’m interested in it, I feel when you…its one of those…traveling is one of those interesting things where yeah there’s people everywhere but its kind of different when you see them everywhere. You know what I mean…and its weird to think that were all human beings, were all built the same way but were not the same in any way, shape, or form. When I was 10 years old I went to London, actually I went to England for the first time, I haven’t been back there since but that was the first time out of the country…and obviously been to Canada a few times. And Canada was a good time; in Canada we had some good family friends and met some people up there and uh, London the same thing; actually London was a weird situation because my dad and his uh Page 15 �girlfriend took me and every…I was 10…so as far as eating goes all I ate was pizza and chicken nuggets…you know what I mean…like you’re a picky eater, even though you don’t really know what you like and you think you hate everything. I found uh…there was a pizzeria at the base of our hotel that served…well in England I guess the rest of Europe…what we know as a plain slice, is a margarita of pizza. Has nothing to do with margaritas but…you know…so I was like oh margarita! Cause I look at it…and I look at the description and I'm like this is normal pizza…and I uh ate every night that we were in London, by myself, at this one place because they had pizza. And like my dad and I went the first night, and my dads like “I’m not gonna come to London and eat at the same place every night”, so he sends his 10 year old son into the world by himself to do this. And, I remember…I don’t know if it was my first taste of…what do you call it…I don’t know…maybe socializing with the opposite gender. But I remember I had this one waitress every night, then like the day before I left I was like I’m leaving soon, and decided to start talking and um I guess that was one of the first times I was out of my element, had sort of gotten a little bit comfortable, and decided…what’s the worst that could happen if you just talk to people. And I mean your 10 so its not like I’m trying to sleep with her…you know what I mean…you can just talk to people. Uh…and I guess the next big trip. I used to go to Puerto Rico as well…I forgot to mention that; I used to go to Puerto Rico almost every summer and spend some time with my grandma for about 2 or 3 months every summer. How I don’t know Spanish is embarrassing but it kind of happens…so uh what do you call it…well I guess my next big trip was when I was 14...no I was…yeah I must have been 14; I went to Australia and New Zealand, which was really exciting and also with the rugby thing it was a little bit more prevalent over there so it was exciting to watch that and soccer. And I…uh well I mean Australia was a blast, but one experience that’s always been with me is…I went to stay with the Mayoree people when I was in New Zealand, and we stayed there for 2 nights and it was actually really interesting; we had a big group, I think there was maybe 20 of us or something like that. And we all slept in one room on the floor, I mean it was a big room…but we were just like on the floor, just like a communal hall type of thing and um the Mayoree people that we stayed with were just …it was the strangest thing…I have never had such a familiar feeling with people…like I met them and they kind of felt like family type of thing; like very easy to talk to, very friendly, just like very caring. And in my head I'm just like wow I am meeting you for the first time and we are getting along; like it is going both ways and it was I guess in a weird sociological way I'm just like wow people are pretty awesome you know what I mean…you can go all over the world and people are just people…you know…I don’t know anything about them and they don’t know anything about me, but we can get along and realize that we have things in common; like meanwhile our backgrounds are entirely different and I guess in a sense that was a part of…that may have been one of the things that I started emphasizing who am I, what am I offering the world in a sense, and also I guess as more as a support it kind of makes me think and reaffirm Page 16 �the fact that alright maybe I am doing something right, like I am meeting these people for the first time and their like alright with me type of thing…you know…I wasn’t trying to like kiss ass cause I was 14…you know…but yeah like I would have to say traveling has definitely added a lot to my identity because it reinforced the need for an identity as well as maybe even pushed me a little bit to be more concerned about what my identity was as far as what other people were seeing. Seph: very cool, and then going on the subject of identity…I guess growing up or in adulthood did you ever feel like you were treated differently? James: oh absolutely! I mean, I would have to say the story of my life is: I was never black enough and I was never Hispanic enough…like definitely a huge thing and then obviously I wasn’t white so I couldn’t play with them…but I mean…whoa…uh..but I mean its not like I grew up in Jim Crow south or anything like that. But it was one of those things were I guess when I was really young, you were…I was always the black kid playing with white kids; it wasn’t like a kids playing with kids type thing. But my neighborhood was actually very diverse, which I appreciated; id have to say the 2 most prominent nationalities…not nationalities…I’d say ethnicities were um…Irish and Pilipino actually. Which were obviously different ends of the spectrum, but I feel like if anything that definitely eased me into everything a lot easier. Hanging out with my dad on the weekends, I guess my weekends were a little more ethnic for me, but then my Puerto Rican side of my family has always been very involved. And it’s a very big family as well so; I mean that was always awesome. I would have to say I would have to identify more with my Puerto Rican roots then my black roots but, that’s also because my Puerto Rican roots are a little bit fresher because my mom is from Puerto Rico, so it’s a little bit easier to connect to that. And as far as growing up in high school, yeah, like it was one of those: oh, you’re black but you’re like not that black, like you act white you know that kind of thing, or like oh!, you’re Puerto Rican but you’re kind of black so, eh, you know what I mean. So like basically because I didn’t speak in the same, I guess, tonovenacular as everybody else, so that off the bat was a little bit weird. But, my mom; its almost like her mission in life was to make sure that I spoke properly, and I guess I feel like coming from where she’s coming from type of thing; to have someone speak properly and if anything, kind of like assimilate socially as far as like having tools to succeed, I mean like I would have to say in a messed up way, I think it has given me an advantage because lets say I have the same requirements as someone who is ethnically exactly like me but they talk with a little bit more of a, like you know, they have like a, they act like you know I’ve got a little bit more swagger, I have a little bit more, like you know…attitude in their speech but I can speak the language and speech properly. Eh I’m gonna have that little bit of that like, off the bat, like kind of like a push and personally I guess I really admire language and I think that language is very important and I also feel when you learn enough about language, you…like, I don’t know…language in Page 17 �itself is its own art form. And I feel that you can continuously learn more about a language which is in a sense I feel like my bastardized justification for why I don’t speak any other languages; is because I’m not done learning English is how I guess I kind of face it, you know what I mean so uh…its just one of those weird things where just growing up; I guess I’ve always been different and just because, like I said, I wasn’t black enough and wasn’t Puerto Rican enough, but I wasn’t trying to be anything else either so…for I guess a long part of my identity, I just thought that I was like by myself, you know what I mean and its kind of…but its like I worked with other people but I was never really part or anything else. I mean I guess its one of those: something that’s kind of carried on with me a little bit more, you know, my entire life, but I mean I guess its one of those that used to bother me a lot but now not so much. I guess I just figure there…like I said it is part of my identity; its part of who I am, and I can obviously mix with other people but there are going to be some things that are just for me, which I guess isn’t a bad thing… Seph: Going kind of on that same line, not to kill that subject, but uh…moving to West Michigan, was there a shift? Did you notice maybe a different sort of treatment? James: I noticed, well I would have to say one of the things I noticed right off the bat was that I felt that well generally the population is much whiter over here which…um…I mean, its like I’ve been to white towns before and stuff like that so it wasn’t even a matter of like oh, I don’t feel comfortable here, its just like oh, I happen to notice everyone here is white, that kind of thing. And one thing I noticed when I started coming here though, is I felt that everyone that saw me at a public place like a supermarket or something like that was… (door creaks open) Seph: what’s up? Ha, of course I'm doing an interview. James:…everyone that saw me, I felt was like very nice, so I felt that like especially, with me rolling in: my car has New York plates, I don’t look like I’m from around here or anything like that so I guess in a sense I stuck out, but people were…like overly nice to maybe compensate for it, which I don’t know if they were maybe other motivations for it but it was just like one of those: oh, everyone here is like really nice, I guess, you know its kind of how it worked. And I guess there were just simple traditionalist and ideological differences I noticed when I came to west Michigan, such as I mean, well I guess its like really religious based around here, which is cool, I mean whatever works, and um…everyone gets married when they are like 17 which is kind of different, I mean…kind of weird but um…I mean if anything I guess I was like walking in…it was almost like…okay it sounds dumb: its like whenever you see a sci-fi movie; I felt like I was the guy, who like came from the past or from the future, you know, I’m the guy who’s here so everyone has to explain what’s going on. I’m a straight man so that everyone can Page 18 �explain, oh this is how things work around here and have them explain to me. And it um, baffled my mind; I'm just like what is happening? What is this place? …It was very strange, I mean especially learning different things; one thing that blew my mind was the amount of confederate flags in this union state you’ve got here. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Its one of those hahaha, Michigan…you’re in the union…kind of. In fact, my roommate my first year…he had a big confederate flag over our couch and it said “redneck” on the bottom and I realized this is home but not really. It was just like one of those: this is really happening; it’s a little strange but you know.... alright I guess, and I mean at the very least I…my yearning to be open-minded I guess was very tested here and I mean its like one of those like...obviously I have no negative views of white people in general, but I realized that there are some pretty trashy confederate white people around here, and which is…well that’ll happen. And then on the other side too, which I feel like Grand Rapids is particularly guilty of …I feel like with the black and Hispanic population I mean, I feel like everyone wants to blame the media but I…every time I see a hood part of town in like Grand Rapids, it seems like a scene out of a movie and I’m just thinking: are you like this? Or are you acting like this, because it’s how you’re supposed to act? Cause Grand Rapids you’re not hood! I’m sorry; you know what I mean? Like Grand Rapids does not know struggle the same way that like places like Detroit know struggle, you know what I mean? And it’s one of those; oh we’re from Michigan, Detroit’s hard, so let’s be hard too. No that’s not they way it works; if you’re happy smile, you know what I mean, like if you’re having a good life you don’t have to pretend you’re not, kind of thing. Its one of those things; like I came over here and I feel like everyone kind of has their roles that they feel are…they are dealt in a sense, and I mean I’m kind of learning it, and learning to get along with it and work around it, but I mean its been different, it’s been very strange. I’d have to say; like I’ve been to Australia, New Zeeland, and Michigan is definitely the weirdest place I’ve been to yet, and its baffling, but I truly feel like its um…it’s definitely…what’s emerged at the other end of everything is a little bit more of who I am, and like I said I realized which principles I’m not willing to give up, you know? And it’s been a little bit difficult but um…I mean looking back at it now; it’s just like, I’m glad, you know; I could’ve just changed and been like everyone expected me too, or you know…done what I needed too to fit in. But I don’t fit in, so I pretend that I do. Seph: All right, well you got a couple more minutes? James: yeah. Seph: okay. I guess I’m going to just to civil rights, cause were dealing with that a lot in class right now…so were gonna move into that real quick to finish. But, I guess when it comes to thinking about race or ethnicity, are there any articles, books, films, features, performances…that stand out or maybe influenced you? Page 19 �James: ewh..uh… Seph: well…I mean you mentioned media and how it’s like how were supposed to act in Grand Rapids, but I mean is there like anything that was ever uh… James: ehhh Seph: we can come back to that. James: well I guess…well no. I’ll stick to it, I won’t pass, I’m not a pussy. No I guess…it sounds dumb…but…I guess I’ve avoided letting other ideas or I guess other influences define who I am. Um...growing up I’ve I always been like lone wolf status; always into things that other people weren’t, always just interested in different areas. And I mean; I guess if I had to say…I couldn’t pick a particular art form or piece of work that maybe helped me with my identity, but uh…I guess I would have to say; things that interested me were unlike what everyone else was into, not necessarily weird different, just not…I mean I didn’t meet too many other people for instance when I was younger…I guess its like I just cant close on a genre or a type but I guess the fact that I was always a little bit of a nonconformist and a little bit…uh well walked to the beat of a different drum, that, helped define me. But I could say that there was any piece of work that pushed me to better myself; in an identity point of view, you know. Seph: a couple more, bear with me. James: that fine. Seph: About discrimination…did you ever face any kind of discrimination growing up? Or even more recent? James: Eh, not to my face I guess, I mean I’m sure it was there; it’s always lurking in the shadows. But…uh…one time…my old teammate and I…his name was Wiccub (not sure if that is really what he says..?); I don’t know if you can use that so we’ll call him Joe, so me and Joe were in the car going from New York City back to Buffalo and we got pulled over by a cop and it was…we had been speeding…but it was one of those things where it was early in the morning, and I didn’t realize I was speeding and I was kinda just like keeping up with traffic and it was just one of those; ohhh in my head and he was like oh you were speeding so I’m thinking oh wow that sucks but what can you do…I got caught speeding; you know what I mean; like I wasn’t trying to be…you know shifty about it at all and um…so the cop checks my i.d. but then checks Wiccub’s i.d. and its just you know…which is weird cause… Seph: cause he’s a passenger… Page 20 �James: yeah as a passenger; you know checks his i.d. as well. So he runs us through the system. He comes back and then he uh…he says…well he basically asked me to get out of the car and I’m like okay fine, its not a big deal; all my papers and stuff were up to date and he just goes…uh…can you come to the back of the car; so I’m in the back of my car, I mean like behind the car…um which I thought was alright because of like the dash-cam thing so I’m not going to do anything; and the video will show that I’m not going to do anything and um…he’s like “I couldn’t help but notice that when you rolled down the window I was hit by the overwhelming odor of marijuana” and so…and I didn’t smoke, like I didn’t and so I was just like ohhh that’s weird cause I don’t smoke…and I guess the cop was like trying to…I assume the cop was trying to trick me into giving him permission to search my car cause he says “oh so if I were to look through your car I wouldn’t find anything” and I go “officer there is nothing in my car” and he’s like “but if I were to look through it, I wouldn’t find anything?” and I go “sir there is nothing illegal in my car” and so he’s like ohhh okay. It’s just like one of those why are you asking that over and over. I feel like he probably just wanted me to be like “fine go look through my car”, you know what I mean, but I know my rights a little bit better than that and um we weren’t giving him any time of reasonable cause or anything so…uh…yeah he gave us like a really hard time and um…were sitting in there car just like; what is going on? As cars are going like 90 past us; we’re just like, you know what I mean; like what is happening right now?! So we’re just sitting there and I’m like wow I’m actually kinda pissed off about this; cause it’s one of those; I never actually play the race card, cause I think it’s dumb, but I was like actually just seemed really fucked up, you know. And so I would have to say if there was one situation; that was…that was the one what was pretty…I guess black and white as far as…you know whether or not there was any discrimination…like I said I guess if anything its been more interracial versus interracial; as far as oh not black enough or not Hispanic enough, you know what I mean; you’re like ohh…you’re not really down with us; so in a sense I’ve been discriminated on all fronts, which is exciting, not many people can say that; usually you have one race to run back to, I had none, so… Seph: any discrimination for being a cheerleader? James: usually well um…I was a bouncer at Raggs to Riches, in down town Grand Rapids and I actually found out when they saw my resume, they saw cheerleader, and they initially were just like, NO! hahaha until one guy goes wait a minute these guys are usually kinda big; they’re usually kinda strong cause they have to like toss these girls; so then they’re like alright we’ll go check him out and I walk in and they’re like “big guyyy!” and then they’re like that’s who we’re hiring and I’m like and I have martial arts experience and they’re like alright that’s cool…um but that’s really the only instance that I know of particularly. But people usually look at me and are like ohh you look athletic, its not like ra-ra-shish-kebah like everyone assumes I do… Page 21 �Seph: okay, how about family? Did your family ever experience discrimination? Mom or dad? James: oh yeah. Um my mom when she first moved here she didn’t speak any English; so I mean like kids find any reason to make fun of other kids…so she was pretty much…she was screwed over when she showed up, she was made fun of; she spoke Spanish, broken English, you know, she like really didn’t know anything but um…however I guess on the inverse of everything there was a girl in her class that was like “Carmen, I’ll teach you how to…like after school let’s hang out for like an hour or whatever and she was like teaching her how to speak and stuff like that…so um yeah…my mom had good and bad experiences as far as like getting to school without any type of you know I guess formal instruction for speaking but I mean just imagine going anywhere and living there you know…and not knowing the language…like that’s one of those things were you can sort of think about it…but if you really think about it in an instance you think like oh that would be annoying but then you got to think about it as like a lifestyle; that’s entirely different, like its…baffling so…I’m sure that’d suck but you can’t really explain it any other way. Seph: All right, and final question: what comes to mind when you think of civil rights? And do you have any civil rights heroes? Local or national? James: well, I mean I would have to say when it comes to civil rights; civil rights are right up there with common sense; like I guess in a sense my problem with civil rights is I feel like when you start making a legislation that is assigned to a certain type of population while it does grant them certain powers it also alienates them because when you write and law and it says like “all men are created equal” type of thing just like very simple like tenants of American society; that should mean all men, are all mankind, you know what I mean, like some type of language use for everyone, but when you start specifying: alright this is for African Americans or this is for you know homosexuals and marriage now, its one of those: well yay! to do the right what everyone else could but you’re also writing a law that’s naming them as a type of person which I feel like that’s kind of…it’s one of those two steps forward, and one step back kind of thing, you know what I mean so uh…as far as civil rights I guess legislation wise, I would hope it was unnecessary but since it is necessary, I’m all for it but I don’t understand…I guess I don’t understand putting any type of human being down; like that’s just a concept that doesn’t register to me at all. As far as civil rights heroes...so stereotypical, I guess I don’t have to pick a celebrity, but whatever, one activist that stands out to me is Malcolm X. Solely on the fact that a lot of people are into Malcolm X because of how powerful of a speaker he was, how adamant he was with his beliefs; which obviously are very good points but he was able to, I don’t know how familiar you are with Malcolm X but his…the first, I would say…the fist major portion of his career he was very militant, very aggressive, and thought; he truly thought that blacks and whites could no co-exist; he felt there should be a black America and a white Page 22 �America, and you know kind of figure out the paperwork later, you know, and he wouldn’t deal with white people, he wouldn’t even mix with the population and he went on the Hajj to Mecca and while he was there was with Muslims from all over the world and he realized there were some darker than me, some my completion, and some white with blonde hair blue eyes and he’s like you know white people were Muslims; and he’s like their faith was at his level, you know what I mean; like at his level or more, so it wasn’t just like oh they’re tourists, they’re not just like checking it out, they are thoroughly invested in a belief system that he is thoroughly invested in. and I guess I admire him because he came out and was basically kind of like “I was wrong”, you know what I mean…and changed his views on everything and went about making those views more public, as far as what should be done. So I guess I admire him for being such a prominent figure in pretty much saying I was incorrect, you know, which no one does that; no one ever says that they’re wrong. So I guess as far as what’s been dug up and exposed about him: he was always what he said he was…you know what I mean…it’s not here’s the Malcolm X we thought we knew, here’s random exposé, you know that kind of thing. No, like he changed who he was but he stayed who whomever he said he was, that’s who he was at the time; you know and especially a man of his stature and position that’s very difficult to do; to say that, I mean essentially he lost his life as kind of a result of it. So, I guess if I had to pick one I would say him, and then obviously I guess another example would be Gandhi, who I guess would be a very general one. He’s another one who is a very generic answer and I mean obviously Martin Luther King was a big fan of him as well, but…he…I mean I guess in a similar light to Malcolm X, he was another one where; he was born and raised in India, educated in England, its when he moved to South Africa that he became invested in civil rights. He didn’t realize there was a difference in a sense, of the way people were treated because in India; Britain may have pulled the biggest, fastest trick on every body by convincing Indians that they had equal stake in their own country. And so Brittan realized there are so many Indians here, we have to get them on our side and working for us, versus a partite where it was very segregated and very like militarized on how they separate everything; they had to kind of work a little bit of a different system, and his experience was he went to South Africa because he was of Indian decent; I mean he was pure blooded Indian, and he was mistreated because he was brown, he was not a white person. So you have whites and non-whites essentially was how South Africa worked during the partite and he basically, once presented with the situation in seeing it; things literally black and white changed his views on everything and made it very, very vocal about it. It was almost like an over night change; where he goes “people should not be getting treated this way” and I mean, it’s one of those, he wasn’t as vocal about civil rights prior to this situation but once it happened that’s when he became I little bit more…he became louder and publically changed his views and really…you know…started his quest in and again eventually lost his life again because of it. Page 23 �Seph: All right sweet. Thank you, that is all the questions I have. And James, thanks for doing this and letting me get to know you better. James: No problem. END OF INTERVIEW Page 24 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78289888f09488506831e83e45151990.mp3 8a63606f7a06519687c6130861b35702 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Morton_James Title A name given to the resource James Morton audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Morton, James Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Morkes, Seph Description An account of the resource James Morton talks about his family" Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Discrimination against Hispanic Americans Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e28d4aff3586abd9b1fbc9e1da2f0f1.pdf 4af474baea4c664bf04cfbfb71c38fdc PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Jeanne Englehart Interviewers: Tylenda, Evan, Connor Johnson, Jason, Send, and Philip Joslyn Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/22/2012 Biography and Description Jeanne was raised in Atlanta, Michigan. She is a successful business women in the West Michigan area. She discusses how she became the successful woman that she is today. Transcript TYLENDA: We are hoping you will open up and you can talk about what you want. ENGLEHART: You must have some type of prepared questions? GROUP: Oh yeah. ENGLEHART: Just curious, how did you get my name?” GROUP: We knew we wanted to interview a successful woman in business… in Grand Rapids and we came across your name. Basically because of US Diversity we learned how women historically and today are treated differently in business and what not. So we are coming to you to get your view point on that because I’m sure you’ve dealt with that. ENGLEHART: So the premise to really how women how women are treated differently? TYLENDA: Yeah and see maybe any obstacles you have overcome and maybe different viewpoints, if men have treated you differently because you are a women and what not. We will also want some background information and we can go from there. ENGLEHART: It’s probably easier if you just started asking me questions other than ….. GROUP: Give us a detail background not real detail but outline of how and where you grew up. Head into how and when you knew you wanted to start your own business and just kind of transition us into that, college maybe. ENGLEHART: Well actually I grew up in Atlanta, Michigan, which is up in northern Lower Michigan in a small town that graduated 52 kids. That shows you how big it was. A lot of them are Engleharts, so just a large family and very very poor family……. It was not… we had 5 kids and a father who was disabled so it wasn’t a family that was education was important and a family that had the means to provide education. At some point I think I just decided it was… I needed to get out of there. So……I …..How do I Page 1 �start? There’s a really good, should of brought it for you, There’s a really good article that was in the Grand Rapids press about my life. That will give you a wealth of detail that I will be repeating. That will probably be really helpful and would put a lot of things into context for you, but … I kind of ended up in Grand Rapids in 1980 -81. And I came to work at, there used to be a store called computer land over on 28th street and they sold computers, they sold apple they sold big old luggable Compacts. They decided they wanted to offer classes for the customers that bought computers and I happened to be standing in line with the general manager of the store; I didn’t know him at the time. It was an IBM meeting and told me they were looking for someone. At the time I was working up at Mt Pleasant at CMU and then for a company called MoBark Industries. I thought oh gee why not that would be kind of fun to try that. So we moved to Grand Rapids… Sorry I have really bad allergies at this time of the year; I take Zertec and get cotton mouth so I apologize if my I take sips of water. There is also a Cat here at the school and I am allergic to cats, so it’s a double whammy. GROUP: We saw that. ENGLEHART: Oh yeah, it’s a big ole ally cat that the kids adopted. Of course it knows I don’t like it so it comes and finds me… Anyway, I had taken a job at CMU and was working there and then took a different job working for this company called MoBark industries. They were offering me different positions as I learned more about computers. JOHNSON: So that’s how you got to learn about computers? ENGLEHART: Well it was a lot of word processing back then, so I was heading up to the word processing area. TYLENDA: That’s back when you had the punch cards? ENGLEHART: Yeah, oh yeah and the tapes that ran through it. Yeah long time ago. So I took the job and once I was at Computer Land and I was working there for a year or two I thought how it was interesting that people would think, since you were part of a retail store that we were trying to sell them something instead of just educate them. So I noticed this funny little niche for someone who doesn’t sell anything but really knows how to use computers for business applications. So it’s just like this little hybrid piece that I kept thinking I know how to use a computer to increase people’s business efficiencies but they sometimes didn’t believe it because you’re working at a retail store. So I thought, well, there might be a business here. So I went and decided that I would try and start my own business. So I borrowed 5000 on my credit card and started a business. I didn’t go to the bank because I knew I didn’t have anything that anybody would loan against. So I can’t say I was ever discriminated against when it came to banking because I don’t think they would of lent the money to a man either. It wasn’t a female issue at that point. You don’t have to collateral you don’t get the loan. So that’s the way it usually it works and that was 1985. TYLENDA: Did you maybe have anybody telling you it might not of been a good idea or persuading you to do something else in regards to opening the business? ENGLEHART: Well it was my decision, at the time I was still doing work for Computer Land and I was doing work for Grand Rapids Junior college. So I had 2 different income streams and I went to the president at the community college and said I really wanted to do this because again people wouldn’t come to the college to teach them business because they thought you were going to teach them academics. So there was this competing interest. Are you retail or academic? Well I was neither. I’m in Page 2 �the middle. And so I went to him and said I want to do this, I want a sabbatical. I wanted a fallback position if it didn’t work. So he gave me a year to come back. So in part people say you must have been a big risk taker. I guess I didn’t see it as a risk. It was in hindsight. I almost had something I could go back to if it didn’t work. And so I found through Grand Valley, they used to have a computer lab for over flow of obstruction that was down on Division and Fountain. That was a building down on the corner. I don’t think they even own it anymore. They had a computer lab down there and so I worked out an agreement with them that I could use that computer lab for my classes. I started my business and I had a little office right there next to the Grand Valley space and I shared the Grand Valley admin who was part of the lab there. They were gracious enough to let me have a year to pay the rent. In exchange for me helping them maintain their computer lab and helping them with some of the stuff they needed. So it allowed me to have some time to not have to pay rent…It was kind of a unique situation. TYLENDA: Was there a time when you thought your business would not be successful and when did you truly start seeing it grow? ENGLEHART: Well I truly think there are always points when you think it’s not going to work and what was I thinking. I probably, yeah at least one time when I took a project on and then after I got into it I realized the way I had quoted it was wrong. I was losing my shirt on it. But you have to do it. You have to do what you say you’re going to do. It’s a big small town and word gets out very quick and so people were coming to me because of my reputation and my name so it was really important. I mean the company was Englehart training so it wasn’t too hard to figure out who owned it. So that was just a nice way for me to be able to, had to be able to do what I said I was going to do. Grand Valley was nice enough to help me with that. So it was a nice Segway for me, were I really started seeing that it was really going to take off. I always thought it was going to be successful but thought it had limited potential. Because once people are trained then what do they need? I wasn’t seeing how many upgrades, how many upgrades in the software industry. This was before Microsoft, this was back when teaching people Vizocal and WordStar was the word processor. This was before office. So I was doing a lot of training on these products and every time they had an upgrade then people had to be trained. So there were a lot of companies that came to me to do their training for employees. So this wasn’t onesy twosy people coming in. I did have public classes that were published but the majority of my business was corporate work so. JOHNSON: How did you stay up on your training with the changes? ENGLEHART: I would go to the different software companies. I did spend a lot of time in Utah with WordPerfect doing stuff and with Novell spent a lot of time with Microsoft when it became more popular. We became Microsoft Certified. That was the only way to get training was to spend time with the manufacturer. So that was always part of what I had to do. If I didn’t have the expertise I found people who did have it and contract with them. Especially in the areas of networking and open systems architecture, those were beyond my capabilities so I found people I could hire on a contract basis and put together a plan where we could split the profits. He was happy I was happy. TYLENDA: So how long did that go for? How long were you…? ENGLEHART: Oh gosh, well I was in the grand valley building for only a year. The business I sold the business 13 years later. And by then I had owned and built my own building. I had 52 employees and it was part of a franchise and system that I helped start. IT kind of grew really fast. There were a couple interim offices in Detroit. If you go to the lake shore and you go past Fruitridge and 3 mile there’s a Page 3 �building with a pyramid…it’s all glass to the top, that’s the building I built. So I sold the building and the business and then the tech market tanked. ENGLEHART: That was db luck, totally db luck *Continues to laugh* so it grew I think because it just, people again trusted that you can’t be all things to all people but you find people who can. So I was really big on finding the right people and again bring that level of expertise in. Even though it might have been a cost that I couldn’t afford like with those being Novell and Microsoft certification for networks. That’s a totally different animal then teaching people word processing. I had an arrangement with the experts that we split the profits. People would come in for that name because they had all the certifications. It was a really good way to build the business. Those are the cash cows, 5 days and $3000 classes. Those are the systems that engineers need constant training….. And so I figured it was just time to sell. TYLENDA: So is part of that still around today? ENGLEHART: The company I sold to well at the time it was known as Productivity Point International. Which is a, it’s a… TYLENDA: Subserr... ENGLEHART: No. Well it’s actually started by, a group called Knowledge Universe, but anyway. They bought. There were a hundred and some franchises by the time… TYLENDA: Wow. ENGLEHART: I sold and there was 8 individuals who started that franchise. So I was one of the people that started it. So when we sold, it was Chicago, San Francisco, New York, Austin Texas, Me, little old Grand Rapids, and who were the other ones? I can’t remember. But, so those are the ones they bought and then they didn’t do a very good job managing them. TYLENDA: Yeah. ENGLEHART: So, then again the market, the tech market just tanked. So, it’s one of those things, it was the right time for me. I was ready to do something else. I think I’m a serial entrepreneur. ENGLEHART: I have to be doing something different. TYLENDA: So, what is it that made you want to sell the businesses? Then what did you move on to? ENGLEHART: Well what made me want to sell it was the right price. I mean… It’s pretty... the greatest thing. ENGLEHART: It’s pretty basic when someone says, “Here’s a check.” And so it was money. It was also the fact that I was kind of bored with it. I was just kind of tired of doing it. My kids were grown and I thought well maybe it’s time to do that. And, with any business that grows that fast, you’re highly leveraged. I mean you have a lot of debt. You can’t grow a business that fast without having a lot of debt. So some of it is the attraction of not only getting a check, your debts getting paid off. So, how tuff is that? I just thought, well I’ll just go play with my grandkids for a while. I had no intention of doing anything. I left and it was June ’97, I think June ’97, and I, people know, and , when you’re available. Page 4 �And, Congressman Ehlers called me and asked me if I would consider working as his District Director doing some work for him. And I said, I love you Vern, but I hate politics. Why would I do that? And what he really wanted was me to do relations person. Someone who knew the people and the community and had credibility that could represent him in meetings and could really be his eyes and ears on the ground and help him with that outreach that all congressmen have to have because he was in Washington. ENGLEHART:’s Phone Rings ENGLEHART: Sorry, I should turn my phone off. Group Laughter ENGLEHART: So I just said... Told him I would do it and I did it for… I loved it. It was actually a great job. Because I reported to, the chief of staff in Washington, but I was worked here in the federal building. And there was staff here in the federal building that did things like immigration and social security and lots of casework, but my job was really out in the community. So, I didn’t have casework in the same way. It was a great job; I loved it. And then I was there five and a have years. And , someone asked me to apply for the CEO of the chamber of Commerce position. And I thought, hmmm. Do I really want to work that hard or not? And it was the national search and I thought what the heck? So threw my hat in the ring because I just loved what the chamber did. And just, ? They got it down to 30 people, and then they had 10, and then they had 6. And I said I think better tell Vern because somehow, somehow somebody’s going to tell him. Even though they had kept it very quite. So and when they selected me for the position. So, I did that. I took that job in January of 2005. TYLENDA: Okay. ENGLEHART: And stayed seven and a half years. I retired this past April. A year ago April from the chamber. And I was retired for four months and they called and asked me if I would help with the school. TYLENDA: Sounds like you’re trying to get out. ENGLEHART: I am. TYLENDA: And they’re just trying, trying to come back to you. ENGLEHART: I’m done. I’m done. No, they bought this building. Educational everything, great teachers and principle, etc. They uh, but they purchased a building. They had a half million dollar building that all of the sudden they had to pay for. It was a different skill set they needed someone with some operations skills and someone that could help them really put all of the business practices in place so that they could be sustainable. So I gave them a six-month contract to do that. I’m in month seven and I am done. Next week is my last week. ENGLEHART: So, yeah. No, I did what they needed. So... Helped them launch a capital campaign so they can start getting some money. They, they want to build an early childhood center. So… TYLENDA: Okay. Page 5 �ENGLEHART: So. Just. Than I am officially retired. ENGLEHART: Truly. JOHNSON: So, I don’t mean to like back track, but during all of this, when, when did you have your children? And how was that? How was parenting and like owning a business? ENGLEHART: Not easy. JOHNSON: How did that work? ENGLEHART: Well I had my children, let’s see. They’re now, I’m trying to think. They were not... I’m trying to think if they... When I lived in Mt. Pleasant, they were with me, I was divorced at the time. And they were with me in Mt. Pleasant. So I didn’t have the kind of job that was real strenuous. I worked at the college and was a secretary for one of the departments. And I am one of those horrible examples of someone who does not have a college degree. Went a long way on street smarts, but probably one of my biggest regrets. But it just didn’t happen. It didn’t happen for lots of reasons. And so, I kind of… My kids were part of the equation. Then they went to live with their dad for a while. And then they came back to live with me. So they were sort of in and out of the picture. By the time I started my business the oldest one was living with me and the youngest one was living with his father. So I only had, I was only single parent to one at that time. But early on I was, had them both. So they were… It was a challenge. Very much a challenge. But… TYLENDA: So you went into the Chamber of Commerce. What did that, what was kind of your job description? What would you do for that? ENGLEHART: Well, the chamber has 3,000 business members. And so the job was really to, , have services and programs and, and keep the members happy, ? Very strong political aspect to it. We had an office in Lansing. So, I was registered lobbyist. I did a lot of lobbying, which wasn’t my favorite part of the job. I spent a lot of time meeting with the businesses to find out what they needed and how we could help them be more successful. This, the Grand Rapids chamber is one of the 25 largest chambers in the United States. It’s a very large chamber. So we had, there was a lot of programs. We had our, our diversity initiatives, which were very unique in the country. And so we did a lot of work with them. Business that had an interest in how can diversity help your bottom line. We did, started to do a lot of work with sustainability while I was there with Norm Christopher at Grand Valley, who worked with me. So we set up a whole sustainability program so that people could find out more about how they could, their triple bottom line could be affected by sustainability. So the chamber is just always moving target. The job is to meet the needs of the members. Whatever it might be. And they’ll call you when they’re upset with the city commissioner because their sewer problem, or they’ll call you when they’re mad at the governor. So, it’s just a very wide range and so we would advocate on their behalf and try to help them solve their problems. So it’s just, it was, I mean it’s a management job. I mean, that’s what you do. You’re managing people and you’re managing resources. But it’s also very much a public position. You go to a lot of events and represent the chamber. I said if I never have to go to another black tie event in my life, I would be perfectly happy. Perfectly happy. JOHNSON: So now you said you didn’t, you regret not going to college. But yet, you still made it this far. Like how… Do you think that was easy or it’s possible for anybody? Page 6 �ENGLEHART: No. No, not any more. I don’t think so. I think that was probably the time, the era. I think it’s also that as I built my reputation, it became less important to someone where I was education than it was the results they could see that were proven. So, one thing I’ve never been is, never been dishonest about it. I mean, from day, everybody that I would never apply for a job or say, without telling someone. if this is what you want, I don’t have that master’s degree you’re looking for on the piece of paper. So, don’t waste your time, if this is important. So I guess it’s one of those things, now I don’t think you could do that. I don’t think you’d even get your foot in the door. But because again I think it is such a big-small town and I had done so much and I think I could do it because I was so well known. And that’s the bottom line. I don’t think you could do that anymore because people wouldn’t even give you a chance. TYLENDA: Now do you think you had more opportunities than anybody else did back then? Do you think you kind of, or things just kind of fell in place and you almost got lucky? ENGLEHART: No, I made the opportunities. They didn’t fall in my lap. Nooo, no. I think I had a lot of opportunities, but I think it’s because I was always looking for opportunity. I was always saying, if I’m doing this right now, what’s next? What’s next? What’s next? What’s next? And so, , if you, if you can say, gee, well if, , if we’re, if we’re teaching, , Novel was the big, , for years was the big, , operating system for networks. Well, , once you saw Microsoft make a move in that market, it didn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that you better be getting Microsoft certified because Microsoft eventually was going to knock Novel out. You, you just kind of know that. So, say well then I can see six months from now, we need to be in this niche and we need to own it. Because if we don’t own it, someone else is going to. For me, it is very, it’s probably a very competitive thing. Is that, I would look for the opportunities and say, I know if I don’t do it, someone else is going to. And how do I get there? And then I would look for the resources that could help. TYLENDA: Mhmm. ENGLEHART: So, sometimes it was using my own money, and going further in debt. And sometimes it was finding people like this company I ended up working with that did all the training. But, yea… JOHNSON: So while you were doing this, what sort of role models did you have? Who did you like look up to or want to stride for? ENGLEHART: Well, I wish I could say I had a lot of them, but I really didn’t. I think… I mean from a personal standpoint, my grandmother. But it was such a different era. I hate to say it. It was very competitive and woman weren’t always women’s best friends. I mean women were more competitive than men. I found that it was easier for me to get advice and ask a man, not to be a mentor necessarily, but ask a man to ask than it was to have a woman. Because that’s just the way it was. Because there were so few opportunities. Everybody wanted to be the queen bee, and there could only be one. And so, if you were the queen bee, they had to knock you off in order to get there. ENGLEHART: …Because there are not a lot of opportunities for women. I mean in high level. In the very highest level. There is not a lot. You look around and you see it. You look at board of directors. I'm on a board. A corporate Board. That, a paid board for a bank. But, there are very few women on those types of boards. There is not very many, Page 7 �TYLENDA: So kind of like could you give us like an example of one of those. Something like a dog eat dog situation. ENGLEHART: Well for example. Now a days they have like Infor, which is a big group for women that has 700 or 800 members. it’s all about supporting each other and supporting women. Well, they didn't have anything that was organized back then. So your support group was really those that you made friends with. AND, your friends you hoped wouldn't try to cut you. But, there was a lot of other people out there that I think would just say, well why, it’s another award. Why is she getting one more award? I don’t know if it is a jealousy factor. I don’t know. But, I felt that a lot and I think it was pretty common. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don’t have the high visibility you are not successful. (laughter) So which do you do? Do you continue? At this point in my life I am low profile. I don’t apply to do anything. They just had the 50 most influential women. I've been on it every year. This year I didn't fill out the application. I said, there are other women coming along that should take place (laughter) not me. I was the past, the future is coming, and so, but I was surprised when I saw the list. There was still a n number of women that are women like myself that are way past 60 that were on that list that I thought, well, haven’t you had enough? Do you really need to have your name on one more thing? I mean I guess I'm at a different point. TYLENDA: So you're more humble ENGLEHART: I just don’t care, it’s not important to me anymore. It's really not. I think at some point I just said I need to have my own sense of worth and it can’t come from a plaque on the wall. (laugh) It has to come from spending time with my 6 grandkids. Being with my husband once and a while. The price you pay for some of the success I had is the... it’s tough on your family, it’s tough. And I remember when my oldest son was in high school and I had started my business and it wasn't too old at the time. He was in sports. I remember going to track meets in my heels to watch him race. All these mothers looking at me. I’m like, I had to run in there and watch him run then I had to go back to work. Because I didn't have the luxury to be on the PTA and to help with the school functions. I had to work. So, they paid the price. I said, it’s time for me to change that. TYLENDA: So do you think you really did miss out on some of the important times back then? Like with your kids. ENGLEHART: OH absolutely. There’s no doubt. I mean you can’t do it all. You think you can. At some point you think you can. back in the 60's we were told we could to it all. So we try to do it all. You sort of find out at some point, you can but at what price. TYLENDA: So is that why you transitioned to this job? Because you feel like it’s a lot more fulfilling? ENGLEHART: No. I am doing this for them. I gave them 6 months. I am really kind of doing it. I am getting paid but I am doing it as a favor to some of the people on the board that I knew. They called me and said would you help. I am not looking for, I wasn't looking for a job and I am not looking for one now. TYLENDA: Don’t worry we're not hiring. ENGLEHART: Well my husband is 69 and he is a retired math teacher so he is at an age too that we are kind of saying, if we are going to travel and do some things now is the time to do it if we don't do it Page 8 �now... and the grand kids are in lots of different states. SO, its time. Summer is coming. Can’t wait to be off for the summer right. JOHNSON: So, when you were working at the Chamber, what sort of atmosphere was it like. Because you said there weren’t a lot of opportunities for women. So did you deal mainly with men a lot? ENGLEHART: When I said there weren't opportunities for women I wasn't referring just to the chamber GROUP: right, right... ENGLEHART: I was referring to corporate America. There weren't a lot of women in those high, high leadership positions. So yeah, I mean. When I would go into a meeting of the "business leaders", Whatever that means , in west Michigan. It’s a bunch of white guys sitting around a table. I mean let’s face it. It is what it is. I don’t know that it is a whole lot different now. So yeah I had to deal with mostly, from a leadership standpoint mostly men. TYLENDA: So did you ever see that you were kind of discriminated against? In the sense that if you did speak up your word wasn't as valuable as a male counterparts to yours. Do you have one good example? ENGLEHART: I think from a political standpoint, , when you're sitting in meetings and there are let’s say 12 business leaders around the table and the governor is there. And you are talking about political issues; there is always a tendency, not saying with this governor, I’m just saying that there is always a tendency to look at the man for answers. Or, I won’t use the governor I think I would probably use a senator or someone from the state house. I wouldn't say the governor. You just see that there is always this tendency that when a question is asked they will turn and say, well what do you think? They will turn to men. And at some point I feel like I have to raise my hand, like a little kid and say, the chamber's opinion is... so I would have to insert myself. But I would say that it was mostly, I think it was mostly political. I can't think where it was a big issue otherwise. I just think it was, just the nature of politicians. It’s a good ole boys network. I mean, that’s what it is. I mean chambers are good ole boy networks. There aren't a lot of women that are CEO's of chambers this size. There are more now. I was the first female CEO they ever had at the chamber. I was the first one. So that tells you something, 120 years it took them to get a woman CEO and then they went back to a white man after me. (Laughter) it’s a good ole boys network. Big-time! So... ENGLEHART: And I think that you think differently and you make decisions differently as a woman. And sometimes Men, that was very difficult for them to understand why would I make this decision? I know one that comes to my mind was the decision that I had to make that had to do with (pause...UH) it was for small market reform which was an insurance issue. And I was. The majority of our members that would have benefited from our supporting this legislation. But I knew that spectr hospital was opposed This is where I probably should have remained anonymous - I knew they were very opposed. And I, the decision, finally. Somebody had to finally make the decision and I made the decision in the interest of our members. Which 80% of those 3,000 members are small businesses. . With less than 10 employees. This was important. Well, I mean, you can imagine the stuff rain down on me big time. That I didn't support, the big dog on the hill. So, to this day there’s, I mean, he would, he wanted my neck, he wanted my job. He was adamant I was going to be fired. But he didn't get me fired... But. . That’s the kind of thing I'm not sure, I’m not sure how. I don’t know how a man would have responded. I just, my sense would have been that they might have caved into the good ole boys pressure. Page 9 �TYLENDA: Especially what you see today too. ENGLEHART: That’s just my, that’s my guess. Not based on anything. Just based on my observation of how, mm, how much pressure these guys can put on people. It's relentless. And I think as a woman you kind of go (hmmm) OK. Been there done that. Had babies. Can’t put pressure on me. (laughter) TYLENDA: So a woman's intuitions... ENGLEHART: Well I think it’s having the interest in the bigger picture. Having an interest in. (trails off) This isn't about, my reputation or about whether I'm the one that’s going to get slammed for making this decision, this is really about what is best for everyone. That’s a tough, tough job to have. Because there is a lot of pressure. So yeah. JOHNSON: So now that you are like, past that you say (inaudible), who do you surround yourself with? What kind of people do you want in your life to... ENGLEHART: Hmmm well I have a group of women friend that are... we used to tap dance together many many years ago. And the tappers are probably from a women’s friend group there is still 10 of us that get together every couple of months and drink wine, eat and drink more wine. So that group I surround myself with those. I surround myself I think with family more. m I have a, my youngest son is disabled. He had a stroke at 29 and he is paralyzed on one side and he can’t speak so I spend time. He's not living with us but I spend a lot of time with those kinds of issues. My oldest grandson lives here in town. He'll be 16 (sigh) and he's driving. So, I just spend a lot of time with, the grandkids and stuff. Because that is positive energy. And I can still make an impact. I can still help them with what they're going through. I don’t know, so, it’s pretty simple these days. I don’t do anything too exciting (laughter). TYLENDA: So would you say... What are you r biggest regrets throughout your whole life? You talked about not spending enough time with your kids, or anything else. Name something you wish you would have done differently. Maybe pursued a different area... ENGLEHART: I mean I certainly regret that I didn’t finish college. That is an obvious one. But mm, I think probably, regret that I, my personality is such that I'm very mm, I'm very focused. And so there's a good aspect to that and there's a bad aspect to that. . The good thing is, is when I am focused on something it is going to get done. I am very good at compartmentalizing and getting it done. The bad news is, is that when I am that focused there are a lot of other things that are going on that I am not paying attention too. Whether that’s is personal friendship that I have lapsed because I haven’t spent enough time. It's a two way street if you want to have friends you have to reach out now and then. It can’t always be the other way. So there’s some of that I regret that I haven’t, I haven’t done a really good job of keeping up with my friends. JOHNSON: So if you were going to give advice to somebody that might be like living in a small-town or having a poor family that wants to become successful what would you tell them? ENGLEHART: Don’t do what I did. (Laughter) mm... (Thinking) I would just say don’t take no for an answer. part of what has gotten me here is, if someone said no, I just figured out another way to do it. . I'm very determined and so I’m also very stubborn. So if somebody would tell me no, it would just, I was just that much more determined to prove them wrong. , and so it’s like just because one person says no or puts up a road block doesn’t mean you can find another way to drive around it and you have to be Page 10 �creative sometimes to drive around it. But you also have to be honest, you have to be ethical, all those things that are really core values I think. If what your core values are and you stick with your core values you will be successful Its just determining I think saying how far you want to push the rock uphill. Some people don’t have the personality that, that they want to keep pushing. I mean I had a family of 5 and all my brothers and sisters still live up in northern Michigan. Not one of them ever left. One has at least gone on to college and came back. Bu they all live there and they are all happy in this little isolated world. Here I would go nuts. But, their kids. they had their kids and their kids went away to college and came back and lived there. I mean its nuts. It’s like O.K. (laughter) To me that wouldn’t be, something I would be very good at, but they're happy. So I guess it’s all in knowing what you want to do. I just knew that I wanted to be someplace else and that I wanted to be. I knew I wanted to be in a city. I didn’t want to be in a town. . And to me Grand Rapids was a huge city. It’s like WOW. And then you go to New York or Chicago and you come back to Grand Rapids and you go this really is a small town. ENGLEHART: But, their kids, they have their kids and their kids went away to college and came back and lived there. I mean its nuts. It’s like to me that would be something that I’d be very good at but their happy so I guess its knowing what are doing what you want to do. I mean I just knew I that I wanted to be someplace else and that I wanted to be, I knew I wanted to be in a city, I didn’t want to be in a town and to me Grand Rapids was a huge city : but wow then you, you go to New York or Chicago and you come back to Grand Rapids you go this really is a small town...but I think that I just knew that I wanted to do something different I did not want to be, I didn’t want to be in Atlanta, Michigan the rest of my life. I was absolutely sure of that. TYLENDA: So I mean do we have any other questions? JOHNSON: Yeah how, what’s time like? TYLENDA: We got about fifty minutes I’d say. Jason: 46...yeah. ENGLEHART: We can finish early...hahaha. TYLENDA: Yeah I mean that’s fine with us just hope our teacher doesn’t get mad at us. ENGLEHART: Oh I see, ok. GROUP: Laughter. TYLENDA: So I mean is there any, I guess if do you guys have any other questions...... Jason: Not really. TYLENDA: I mean if not is there anything else you’d kinda like to say...any last. ENGLEHART: Well I’d like to hear a little more about your project. TYLENDA: Oh ok perfect......do we have the, the consent mm. Page 11 �ENGLEHART: The consent mentions the… TYLENDA: What it, what it is JOHNSON: Its TYLENDA: The group were split up into say five groups total six, six groups total with about four in each group and what it was is we went to go look out someone in society who is kinda viewed as different and so instead of most people went to the African community, African American community maybe like a teacher professor they went to LGBT member and kind of asked ‘em their point. We kind of wanted to do something different. See how a women in business is viewed cause even today that’s still a big topic and pay… ENGLEHART: mhmm. TYLENDA: Pay differences and everything like that. So that’s where we did our research and we, we saw that the 50 influential most, most influential women in Grand Rapids and then we found your name so that’s kinda how we got here. ENGLEHART: Ok. The…the…the focus is though civil rights? TYLENDA: mmm ENGLEHART: Histories, is that western Michigan civil rights histories? TYLENDA: I mean she didn’t give us…she didn’t make it…she didn’t tie us down too much and we even asked her if this was ok and she loved the idea. ENGLEHART: hmmm k TYLENDA: of going out to you so it kind of just worked out and we just wanted to be different. ENGLEHART: Yeah...well… it is interesting when you say civil rights obviously that when I talked about the diversity initiatives, the chamber…… it brought to mind that our chamber was very abnormal. It was the only chamber in the United States that had full time staff dedicated to diversity problems, training and education programs, and it was interesting. At one point when I was very early on in my chamber tenure, there was a major company in town that came to the chamber and asked to have a meeting, so it’s… there are a couple of VP’s. He said they thought we were spending too much time on diversity. TYLENDA: Really? ENGLEHART: Initiatives and programs. TYLENDA: Geez ENGLEHART: and we should be spending more time and interest on political activities and that was what they paid their membership for and if we didn’t make some adjustments they would be cutting back on how much they donated to the chamber and they did. Page 12 �TYLENDA: Unless they changed ENGLEHART: Cause I didn’t change my mind. TYLENDA: Yeah JOHNSON: What sort of a impact did you see your diversity initiative ENGLEHART: Having? JOHNSON: Yeah ENGLEHART: Well they had this program called "Facing Racism" that is just a tremendous 12 week program and the impact I saw was that people that would say to me years after they had gone through it what a change it made in their life because it’s facilitated and it puts you...first of all the makeup of the classes are always intentional to be diverse and you learn a lot about yourself you learn a lot about other races but you learn how… you’re put in situations so how it… it’s a feeling you… TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: How someone feels and…and there’s… it’s hard to explain it…it’s a very experiential project. I’m trying to think of an example, something they do... TYLENDA: Kinda put people in that. ENGLEHART: We… they do different scenarios but then…but there’s like one they have… they’ll have extra questions like...it’s called packy or back pack. I don’t know, it’s been years since I’ve gone through it but they would a ask question and if you could answer yes then you… then you could step back or, or forward, whatever it was and then this one and they…they ask about when you go to the… if you were to walk into the office or yard you say I need a band aid I cut my finger I mean what color is the band aid? TYLENDA: Yeah...it’s true. ENGLEHART: Now they do have clear band aids and now they… TYLENDA: uh huh ENGLEHART: do have...but typically I mean it’s just those kinds of things and you think will…how would I feel if every time...ah...every…, its…it’s like one more time someone’s pointing out to me I’m different. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: I’m not the same I mean it’s those little tiny. TYLENDA: and they go Page 13 �ENGLEHART: examples TYLENDA: like some dolls stuff you look at. ENGLEHART: Exactly...exactly. TYLENDA: Cabbage Patch dolls. ENGLEHART: So, so I think that I saw that it made an impact because companies including Grand Valley have put a lot of people through these programs. I think they see it as a way to begin to educate. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: That begin to tell people that you need to be aware it’s creating that awareness. It’s creating just some of the words that you use and the phrases that you use. I mean one person said this guys in the white hat and this guys and the white hat black hat ...good guy bad guy. Well that wasn’t acceptable because if you think about it the black hat was always the negative and the black was always being associated as the negative piece. And so again those are small examples but you start to think about how you speak and you start to think the language you use and how someone else hears that and I spent a lot of time with the different groups getting to know them whether they were African American or… Bing is a good friend of me who owned Eastern Florrals so the Asian community and so just learning that other people’s viewpoint is ok its different but its ok. And then so then in the workplace the more you do that the more productive companies become because you’re more open to and more creative ideas. TYLENDA: Exactly. ENGLEHART: because if you look at the most successful companies, they are companies that have embraced diversity not just by saying we embrace diversity TYLENDA: they actually… ENGLEHART: but by actually doing it and incorporating it and having people in leadership positions that are different. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: Power and different backgrounds and whether it’s at the chamber…one of my VP’s was a lesbian woman and she was black. It’s like two strikes. TYLENDA: uh huh ENGLEHART: Haha TYLENDA: Haha ENGLEHART: Ok she’s qualified and she’s good. Page 14 �TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: but again that’s not always seen, you don’t see that very often. JOHNSON: So…so that’s like what you told the company that came to you and said that they think you shouldn’t be spending as much money on that and you’re like well its… ENGLEHART: It’s good for the community, it’s good for the bottom line of the chamber, and it’s good for Grand Rapids. JOHNSON: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: To see that not everybody’s homogeneous, not everybody is, I used to jokingly……not everybody is white, Dutch, Christian reformed TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: They’re not; look on the streets in Grand Rapids… a little different than it used to be. Now the leadership may still be… but I was a woman and I’m Jewish. I mean…so I didn’t fit in any of the categories. TYLENDA: ah huh. ENGLEHART: So TYLENDA: So did you find a lot of companies embracing it then from… ENGLEHART: They’re starting to more and more… TYLENDA: Do you? ENGLEHART: Just starting to TYLENDA: Do you see still a lot of… kinda do as we say not as we do? Where they do kind of... say there embracing it yet they still treat people ENGLEHART: I think there’s a lot of religious discrimination… TYLENDA: Really? ENGLEHART: Still. TYLENDA: mmhhmm JOHNSON: Do you think that that might be like a west Michigan thing or is that…is that everywhere? Page 15 �ENGLEHART: I think it’s more prevalent in west Michigan. I’m not…I don’t know that it’s just west Michigan but it’s certainly something that you go to a cocktail party and people always say well what church do you go to? TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: It’s just…that’s part of the vernacular. That’s part of what they say and so when people are talking and there having casual conversation that’s part of what they ask in west Michigan. It’s…what church do you go to? JOHNSON: huh ENGLEHART: And when you tell ‘em you don’t… TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: They don’t quite know what to say....well I go to Temple Emmanuelle and I’m Jewish and its down on Fulton and yeah…it…and you…and simple things like…eh , the Jewish holidays which are different than the Christian holidays. So for me I……one time there was huge meeting that was planned and nobody had asked about my calendar and it happened to be on a Passover… TYLENDA: Wow ENGLEHART: And I said I can’t be there and they said well why not and I said its Passover and I said there’s not very many days I miss but I’m go to Temple...it’s like you guys with Christmas and Easter I go. TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: A couple of ‘em I go to and tried to make light of it and they were really upset that I didn’t come. TYLENDA: hmm ENGLEHART: They didn’t understand it and I said well you didn’t ask me TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: You just assed that because I was blonde and that… that I was probably Christian well you didn’t ask so those kinds of things… I think that it’s harder for a woman…I think if a man had been in that situation… I think that they would have probably understood more. I think cause if a man said now it’s a religious holiday. TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: I have to go to the Temple I think that would have been ok because people respect that. I think with a woman it’s almost like well… you couldn’t. Page 16 �TYLENDA: Break a rule and… ENGLEHART: Yeah or I don’t know I just… it I definitely felt minimized. TYLENDA: Ok ENGLEHART: By that TYLENDA: And was that for the… was that the chamber you said? ENGLEHART: No it was a meeting that somebody had that I was supposed to go to and represent the chamber TYLENDA: Oh, ok. ENGLEHART: So it wasn’t a chamber meeting. We would have never have scheduled something on a holiday. JOHNSON: I’m curious more hearing about this Jewish church that you go to and that community. ENGLEHART: Well there’s the Jewish community in Grand Rapids. There’s actually…three...really two major temples. One is Temple Emmanuelle on Fulton right by Aquinas College TYLENDA: Oh, ok. ENGLEHART: And then there is a Ahavas Israel which is on Michigan St. which is over almost by Michigan at the beltline that far over and then there’s another one that’s called the Chabad house. And the difference is that there is reformed Jews and there’s conservative Jews… and then there’s the Chabadnics which are the ones that are the black hats and they only walk and so. TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: There is a very small group of them in Grand Rapids, but the temple I belong to is a reformed temple so people who are in the reformed Jewish community are sometimes ......intermarriages…not both…maybe not both Jewish and… its more liberal… Ahavas Israel is very conservative… on Michigan all of their services are in Hebrew. TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: A lot of the services are in Hebrew at temple Emmanuelle as well but it is much more liberal and habab and some of the more conservative temples women aren’t even allowed to sit with the men TYLENDA: Wow. ENGLEHART: It’s that it’s still very divided…so…but there’s… I don’t know…I’d say maybe…it’s really small. There’s less than a thousand families in… Page 17 �TYLENDA: Right. ENGLEHART: In west Michigan…really in Grand Rapids. TYLENDA: ah huh. ENGLEHART: So not a very big…not a very big community. TYLENDA: I mean… yeah cause I live back home, right by West Bloomfield. My cousins are Jewish so I’m really familiar. ENGLEHART: Yeah. TYLENDA: That’s a really big area. ENGLEHART: A big area. TYLENDA: yeah ENGLEHART: Yeah…here your definitely a minority... to be Jewish... its…I think there’s a lot of……again a lot of stereotypes that people have that are not accurate and… TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: So it’s also a good opportunity as visible as I have been to also educate people. TYLENDA: You’re certainly in the position to do that…that’s good. ENGLEHART: Yeah it’s been interesting...deep breath...no I don’t want a Christmas present thank you… JOHNSON: You get Christmas cards and stuff? ENGLEHART: Oh yeah, all the time. TYLENDA: aagghh ENGLEHART: Yeah I mean I’m not easily offended I just think it’s interesting because people … TYLENDA: Assess so much ENGLEHART: Well and they just…even if they know they still send your Christmas card. TYLENDA: Man. ENGLEHART: It’s like ok, whatever, hahaha. I’m on your list. Ok. JOHNSON: Alright. Well thank you so much. Page 18 �ENGLEHART: I hope you have some information and if there is anything else…I can’t think what else I could tell you my gosh. TYLENDA: That was perfect. ENGLEHART: My life is kind of like an open book. TYLENDA: We’ll certainly reference that article too you have online ENGLEHART: Yeah, I think that’s a good article to really like…aagghh...I sign here it looked like you guys are supposed to sign down here, is that right? JOHNSON: I mean I can fill that out but yeah…I just need your signature. ENGLEHART: Oh JOHNSON: And then you can keep this one ENGLEHART: oh ok JOHNSON: Is that right? TYLENDA: Yeah one of them is for her, I think. ENGLEHART: oh ok the interviewer’s name. You want my address here? TYLENDA: Ah you can just put the school if you want. ENGLEHART: No I… cause Grand Valley…I know… I get all of their… are you kidding once you give money to Grand Valley TYLENDA: You can’t get away. ENGLEHART: I’m on every one of their lists. Kind of hard to get away from Grand Valley. There the best at fundraising there is. JOHNSON: Should we now do the introduction that we kind of skipped over in the beginning? ENGLEHART: Oh JOHNSON: That we’re TYLENDA: What do you mean? JOHNSON: That we’re meeting here with… ENGLEHART: oh ha. Page 19 �JOHNSON: Jeanne Englehart at the Grand Rapids Child Discovery Center TYLENDA: And I’m Evan Tylenda. Jason: I’m Jason Send. Phil: I’m Phil Joslyn. JOHNSON: I’m Connor Johnson. TYLENDA: And that concludes our interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b4d04bd9ddba33dfe3b5cc287342370.mp3 4159a964c2d604688e02418cbd4965e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Englehart_Jeanne Title A name given to the resource Jean Englehart audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Englehart, Jean Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Evan, Tylenda Johnson, Connor Send, Jason Joslyn, Philip Description An account of the resource Jeanne was raised in Atlanta, Michigan. She is a successful business women in the West Michigan area. She discusses how she became the successful woman that she is today. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9aa2d6441443b4c771e133be82fbf84c.pdf 439e624e384f0d104825ff4bdc473c0d PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jeff Lichon Interviewers: Grace Faoro, Cody Holtrop, Eli Rytlewski and Michael Vallentine Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/3/2012 Biography and Description Jeff Lichon was born and raised in West Michigan. He discusses his struggles with disability after being in a car accident at age 15. Transcript FAORO: All right to get started. Jeff how old is you and where are you from originally? LICHON: I am 33 years old and I am originally from Saginaw. FAORO: Okay so from around here. LICHON: Yes, I’m a local. FAORO: Now, what was it like growing up in Saginaw, and this area? LICHON: I personally, Michigan I think is the greatest place in the world. I love it. We got the if this is about diversity Michigan is a perfect example of that only in a different way, I think its we have the change of the seasons and we’ve got fresh water that you don’t have to worry about getting eaten by sharks. But honestly it was, its home. I mean I’m comfortable here and I think I’ll always come back here or relocate back here. if I move away or anything like that for a period of time or whatever. There is a lot out there to see but in the big little world, this is still home and I grew up with mom dad and an older sister. she did the normal sibling rivalry and everything and I always tried being the peacemaker and stuff in the family. FAORO: Was she much older than you? LICHON: Two and half years. FAORO: Okay so you guys were pretty close in age. LICHON: Yeah and we are very close still. She’s lives in Grand Rapids as a matter of fact, and has been there for close to 10 years. So yeah. FAORO: Have you ever lived anywhere else but this area or have you always lived kind of stuck around? Page 1 �LICHON: I’ve lived in right out of my undergrad I lived in the Metro Detroit area for a total of 5 years. Two different companies and then eventually I started at Dow in the rotational program and my second rotation was in Washington D.C and I spend 6 months out there. FAORO: Now what is a rotational program just out of curiosity? I don’t really know. LICHON: It’s a where I started at Dow, its kind of an entry level position I’m Public affairs its called Public Affairs Developmental Program and Mike’s dad hired me into Dow actually. So but at any rate you do typically you do three 4-6 month rotations. And each one is kind of you typically you stick with the one project area like my first one I worked on sustainability communications and when I was out in D.C I handled the Government Affairs Communication in PR and what not so and then I ended up actually coming out of rotation because a position became available and it was a good fit. FAORO: Now where did you go to school and what did you study? LICHON: My undergrad was at Central Michigan University and I double majored in logistics and marketing and a Journalism minor. I did two years at Delta College too actually. I got my associates in Business. It took me while, starting out I didn’t know what I wanted to do . FAORO: That’s pretty common. LICHON: Well yeah like anybody, what do you want to do the rest of your life? well okay, that’s easy… not its not. FAORO: You’re 19 choose now. LICHON: Exactly, no pressure so I started out in psychology and when my dad asked me what I wanted to do with that, I said that was a good question. I think teaching would be natural for me and somewhere down the road maybe I could retire I’ll teach or something. I have actually been a substitute teacher, taught for a little while in local high schools in Saginaw. and So then between my first and second years at Delta I went from within a two week period I changed my mind starting with Psychology to Pre-Med to Pre-Law to Business. So I got my associates in Business at CMU and did the Marketing Logistics, I knew I wanted to do something to take advantage of my creative side and what not, so Marketing was kind of an -natural fit. I joined the co-ed Business Fraternity there so I wanted to do something social but also help be a good rese builder too. FAORO: Right connections and working. LICHON: Exactly. So everybody in the business Fraternity, not everybody, but several people were doing this double major logistics and marketing and I was like what the heck is logistics? So I looked into it and it seemed like a growing field a lot of opportunity and what not and its funny I get to maybe a little bit about what I’m doing with Dow actually. I kind of came full circle with the logistics thing, it actually helped me further down the road and I wouldn’t even know about it back then. so at any rate, I ended up, the 5 years I spend in Detroit were in international logistics operations and like the first company was CH Robinson. If I’m getting too much detail or something stop me. Page 2 �FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: No! You’re good. LICHON: Okay, it was a little over two years with CH Robinson shipping Scott’s fertilizer via the ocean and airfreight around the world. by the container load, the big ocean containers in the large ocean vessels. and it was good experience but it was not I didn’t really see myself doing, and I didn’t feel it was a great use of my talent and all of that. so I left CH Robinson and got a job at Chrysler and was a contractor there with eagle global logistics. I was doing a similar thing only, Chrysler vehicles around air and ocean freight it was, it was, special operations. It wasn’t high vole, getting the production company. like thousands of cars around the world and stuff like that. But, there were cars used in commercials when the Jeep Commander came out with the little roller, frozen in a block of ice? That was actually filmed at the southern hemisphere proving ground in New Zealand; I shipped that vehicle there. FAORO: Wow LICHON: Yeah, so it was kind of cool. it was a step up from, it was kind of moving in the right direction. Its still not exactly what I wanted to do. I spent three years there. While I was there I got my MBA from Michigan State. I did the weekend MBA program and felt that that would help me, go that next level. FAORO: Get you where you wanted. LICHON: Exactly. And I would’ve come to find out that it did. I was able to; I interviewed with Dow and it. I was not only able to switch companies but to switch fields. because I wanted to get into circling back to my undergrad, the journalism minor that I got. I also, do some freelance outdoor travel and like disability writing and for various magazines. You just send inquiries in; my dad has also done on the side as a kind of hobby. And I always enjoy writing, and enjoy the outdoors, and traveling and what not, so it was a natural fit, and so I’m like I wanted that I could behind me to give me some more credibility for my writing. So I go the Journalism minor. I could come to find out that it helped me get into Dow. I didn’t have any communications experience per say, besides the minor, I have done some public speaking, to various groups nationally, local and what not, for my injury. so all of those things kind of came together and helped me, along with the MBA, to get into Dow, to change fields from logistics to communications, which are pretty, you can imagine, there are many difference between the two. FAORO: I’m really interested in the writing you do for the outdoors, and the public speaking you do. Can you elaborate on that a little? LICHON: Gosh when did that start? FAORO: Like how did you get into it, like the opportunities kind of thing? LICHON: I’ll start with the writing. That’s easier. As I mentioned my dad always did that on the side. we always used to go hunting together, pheasant hunting, duck hunting, go out on the Saginaw Bay and he did this boats and blinds column for Wild Flower Magazine. He did this for 15-17 years and wrote for other Magazines. So I said I wanted to do that. The contact, connections and I said hey I’m interested in writing, and I submitted an inquiry. My first article was in the Michigan Outdoors on how to preserve Page 3 �your game after you shoot a deer or a duck or something. If you want to get it mounted. So pretty basic, but helpful right. And I just started from there; it was easy for me because it’s like what do you like to do? And write about it. So so I just started from there. I did my own LLC access outdoors (Limited Liability Company). And what else? I have written for some national publications now. I’m still kind of in the name building thing because over the years I have had gaps where I haven’t consistently kept my name out there so I have written for regional reports for Great Lake Fishing and Hunting News, on the Saginaw Bay Region, I did that for about a year or so. what’s going on in fishing and hunting and stuff, and where the hot spots, things like that. It was interesting, and then I would find when I would go on a trip somewhere, it would line up different activities adventures and stuff like that because I’m an adventurous guy I like those things. Every year I would try to do an in state and out of state trip and do different things. I mentioned I’m going down to Florida tomorrow. I work on lining up a fishing trip for Goliath grouper. They can get up to 600 pounds. So something like that. I am also trying, disabled water skiing for my first time down there. A week from today I’ll be on some inland lake. Hopefully no alligators are out there and I’ll be water skiing. So that will be fun, I hope. Hopefully not to overly adventurous. FAORO: How do you do disabled water skiing? I just like… LICHON: I down hill ski too, so I’m guessing that the fall in the water isn’t as hard but. Your basically, I’ve seen different ones. I mean there are some that are narrower skis and they have a bucket seat on it and your legs are secured in, your feet are strapped in. VALLENTINE: Pulls you up? LICHON: It pulls you up. Yeah. VALLENTINE: So that’s essentially the same thing as snow skiing too, right? LICHON: Yeah. VALLENTINE: Cause I’ve seen that. LICHON: I love it. It’s a good time. So I’m trying to get back to what I was leading into here. Hum, so… so always try and do in state out of state trips. I find a couple things to do that are non-typical for someone with a disability and then write about it. And maybe open up people with other disability, whether it’s physical or mental, open up their perspectives and hopefully their options and actually get out and do the things they want to do. So, I went to the National Cherry Festival in Traverse City and Mackinaw Island. Okay, and you just write about different things and how easy it is to get around and things you can do. In Traverse City I went to, I went on the tall ship Manitou out in West Grand Traverse Bay and went Parasailing. So, I wrote about those and I tried getting up with the Blue Angels that year but it didn’t pan out. They take up members of the media every year, I can guarantee you, just about guarantee that I will have been the first person with a spinal cord injury to ride in a fighter jet. That would have been cool. That would’ve been good publicity for them, wouldn’t it? Page 4 �FAORO: Now when you write, do you find that like any people in the disabled community are like really inspired or have you heard from anyone about your writings or anything? LICHON: No. Well the thing is people, I mean sports and spokes and paraplegic news are sister publications from the paralyzed veterans of America and I’ve written for both of them. FAORO: Are you a Veteran? LICHON: No. I wish it was that honorable. No, car accident. And s I can talk about that too if you’d like? FAORO: Are you comfortable? LICHON: Yeah, absolutely. … losing track of what I was saying. RYTLEWSKI: You were talking about writing for the association… LICHON: Oh yeah. The PBA and stuff. So they’re a national publication so they have good reader ship and if it helps one person or 2 people, whatever, I think that’s making a difference there. But I always look to, for meaning in things I do. What’s going to make an impact on lives of people? Not just people with disabilities but anybody. FAORO: Open the eyes of people who aren’t disabled maybe… LICHON: Yea, yea. The perspective of people with disabilities now has changed a lot since, I mean there was a huge movement back in the 60s and 70s and following Vietnam. With people coming back with these injuries and from war and having these types of injuries. Whether its post-dramatic stress, spinal injuries, head injuries and stuff like that. There was a big movement because they were coming back and even though; the country was very anti-war and anti-veteran and treated everyone bad, it was probably that much worse for those who were coming back with these catastrophic injuries. These life changing things that could actually, probably do more good for society and helping facilitate better back in the normal word, sort of speak. But it didn’t. There were big fights through those years. early in the 90s we ended up getting the American Disabilities Act from President Bush. that has been a hug step and has really opened up opportunities and the ability of people with, probably in a lot more respect of physical disabilities than mental. To get out because more things are accessible. Well new buildings are instructed; they now have to incorporate burrier free design and things like that. All public buildings have to be accessible. Anytime an old building is modified in anyway it has to be retrofitted with accessible designs as well and things like that. So, coming back to the present I think that the awareness of people with a disability has increased significantly and just over the things that have been leading over the years but there is still a ways to go. I mean no one thinks of himself or herself of wanting to have a disability; I was thrown into it when I was fifteen. It was something that happened to me, I spent 15 years walking and all of a sudden… You are either born with one, you sustain one somewhere. As people age different things come up, whether it’s dementia or whatever. So, no one ever think of themselves as having a disability. There are a lot of challenges of raising the awareness and I think now with the war and Iraq, the technology we have today there is going to be more people surviving their injuries at war cause of technology and these soldiers are going to come back and they are going to Page 5 �want to work and live a normal life and so you are going to see a lot more people in society with different types of injuries and disabilities, mental or physical or whatever. So, that’s definitely going to, I mean that’s unfortunate that it happens, but it is what it is and I think it is definitely going to help increase that awareness level and you’ll see just more; I think what that ultimately leads to is people have a different perspective on life. They see things differently right? FAORO: Yeah. LICHON: So, case in point, myself. I played football, baseball, basketball, soccer, skied, track, everything. It was April 26 of 1994, which will be 18 years next month since my accident and I got home from baseball practice and instead of doing my homework, like I probably should have, I ended up walking over to my buddies house to play basketball with another buddy. It was a few blocks from my house and I got there and I remember playing horribly and I don’t know, it’s just something you remember. So, was playing horribly and I had just gotten the first Rage Against the Machine CD and I wanted to play it on my buddy’s stereo because he had these big speakers. These box speakers. I remember getting ready to leave and that was it. What happened beyond that was a kid in my class had just got his drivers license, we weren’t close friends but we were friends of friends. We didn’t hang out all the time. So, he had just gotten a new truck and my buddy and me were about to walk home. The kid said hop in the bed of the truck and ill give you a ride home. So, we’re 15 years old, so of course. We were invincible then. FAORO: Yea, free ride. LICHON: Yea why not. Might be cool, whatever. So, there were 3 guys in the cab so we hopped in the bed and when we took off, I laid down in the bed cause I didn’t want to get thrown out and so that’s what I was told. So, the driver was messing around, lost control and went up a curb. On the same street that the kid’s house was that we were playing basketball at. And he hit a tree going about 50 and the driver had a concussion, the kid in the middle seat had 15 stitches across his knees, the kid in the passenger seat had a few stitches across his lip. Had we hit on the passenger side instead of the driver side, the kid in the passenger seat would have been killed because the hood came up through the wind so far it would have sliced his head open. It was bad. When I first saw the truck post-injury it was surreal. I called it the eight wonder of the world cause I was amazed anyone survived it. So, my buddy was in the bed of the truck with me and ended up getting 2 stitches in his finger cause he was holding on when we hit. I had a broken back. Which your spine has your cervical, which is in your neck, Your thorax, which I think has 7 vertebrate there. So they measure it like C1,C2,C3. So you have 12 thoracic, which are all your, which is the bulk of your back, your spine. there are 12 of those. Then you got your lumbar, which is your lower back, your sacru, and your praxis. I broke 3 vertebrate, T5,T6,T7. Which is just chest level here. had I broke my spinal cord one or two higher I probably would have lost some function in my arms and hands and stuff. I am very fortunate for as severe as it was and that I didn’t get some sort of head injury from bouncing around the bed of the truck. excuse me. So I had a broken back, a bruised heart, collapsed lung, and 3 broken ribs. Short term memory loss for 2-3 days pretty mild fortunately. I guess it was good that I didn’t get a head injury, though I guess some of my friends would argue against that, sometimes I may have one. (Laughing) Joking, ok. so I spent 3 weeks in St. Marys Page 6 �Hospital in Saginaw. had surgery where they put titani rods in my back to stabilize the spine. they took a bone chip out of my hip and fused the 3 veribrate together. They pulled bone chips out of my spinal cord, which caused that and the swelling from the traa caused the injury. So basically your spinal cord is about the diameter of your pinky and if theres, think about the diameter of a internet cable or something like that, or wifi; how intricate is some of the cables if you just break one of those it breaks the signal so that’s how the nerves are going through, they are just so tight together and any type of damage or shifting of the spine, swelling, can cause permanent disability. And if ya just tweak it. I hope I am not making anyone quezy if you are gonna be eating after this or anything (Laughes) FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: (laughing) No we are alright LICHON: I spend three weeks, they fused 3 vertibrate together and pulled bone chips out of the spine. After that I went to grand rapids and spent 2 months in rehab for at Mary Free Bed by the hospital there, right on Wealthy St. FAORO: Oh I have seen stuff for that. LICHON: Kinda near the gaslight district? Or something? VALLENTINE: Something like that LICHON:I don’t think it’s a redlight district (Laughes) LICHON: Anyways, well I spent 2 months there and I had to relearn pretty much everything we take for granted. I had to relearn how to reach down and tie my shoes, I could not reach my feet right after my injury to put on shoes and socks, to get dressed, I had to relearn all that. But like I said, I had to relearn to transfer from the wheelchair to a real chair or a vehicle. Initially I was using what was called a sliding board. It’s just a very thin, solid board, about this long. That you slide under one hip then ya put it into the vehicle or onto the chair or something like that. I never thought I was never going to not have to depend on that just because it was that difficult to do. I had to relearn getting around the house, taking a shower, , bladder/ bowel considerations come into play. I mean everything was different. and so. After my, after I spent two months there, I came home, started my junior year in high school, no sports. Looked into getting back into hunting and fishing, because those we like my nber one passions. worked with my family and friends into getting back into doing the things I used to do as much as possible. yeah it was hard, it was an adjustment. Especially, as you can imagine for a 15 year old, it’s such a critical time in your life, in high school, in your development. Emotionally and all that. But I had awesome friends and family who were very supportive. I got right back that fall into hunting. there were some things I was kinda resistant to like, like I didn’t wanna be identified by my injury, by the disability or anything like that. I still wanted to be jeff FAORO: Right LICHON: ? And i think that was one personal battle that anyone who goes through anything like that would have. That you ultimately find out that you are only fighting yourself (laughs) and everyone still Page 7 �sees you for who you are in the end. but still it’s such a significant change. Going back to now, the idea that people with disabilities have a different perspective on life, because of a significant life challenge. I think. (bing noise) (laughing) RYTLEWSKI: Is it dying on me? (laughing) LICHON: See everyone has a different outlook on life and everything because of the challenges that you have gone through. So, that all ties into your work ethic, ties into your outlook on life. My motto is you only live once doesn’t mean that you have to be wild and reckless, it just means life’s short. It’s very short, I can’t believe I am 33 now; it’s hard to believe that 18 years have gone by since my accident, since that accident. But it’s just been an incredible 18 years. The opportunities I have had with people I have met, who knows where I would be today? Maybe the injury, I believe things happen for a reason. Maybe had the injury not happened, something would have happened where I would have died? You never know right? So I take every moment, I try to live in the moment. Do what it, what I feel is going to be a positive impact to people and doing the things also that I wanna do. Where when I get 50 60 years old whatever, and i look back and say man I wish I did that. I think regrets are hard for anybody. But now I think I have that perspective where people think about that and go, they think that they don’t like regrets and they think that they don’t wanna miss out on a opportunity in life. So I am actually going one step further and actually trying to do those things that I wanna do. traveling, and whatever down the road, getting married, having a family. Whatever is important to you, its personal to everybody. What they wanna do in life and stuff. So, my ultimate goal is to achieve greatness. (laughing) FAORO: I like it (laughing) LICHON: Yeahh RYTLEWSKI: You’re on your way there LICHON: Yeah! A long way there, I don’t ever think I’ll reach like dali llama status or anything like that (laughing) LICHON: Which is fine FAORO: Hey, don’t knock yourself down, you never know (laughing) FAORO: Dalli llama might be right here in midland Page 8 �LICHON: Yeah right! (laughing) LICHON: I’d rather be in the mountains (laughing) LICHON: So do you have any questions? FAORO: Maybe wrapping it back to Dow and now, with your disability are you involved in Dow in any way? RYTLEWSKI: DEN right? It’s called den? LICHON: Yeah right, RYTLEWSKI: Talk about that a little bit, my dad told me about it LICHON: Yes, ok so when I started at Dow I was in the rotational program, I had god what was the, trying to think of the timeline of everything cause it happened so quickly. Your dad gave me a lot of opportunity real fast. (Laughing). And so, yeah, DEN is the Disability Employ Network and I am the global chair no pun intended (Laughing). All right. OK. And Rob, Mike’s dad of course who hired me in, got me involved with the network, when I started. within like 2 or 3 months I was co-chair with Brenda Keeler, who at the time was the chair. And so then, that was with the understanding that eventually I would become chair. I was like ok, a year down the road or something, I’m at a new job and a new company. Nope, 2 months later I’m the chair. That opened up a lot of doors for me, but through that I’ve gone and spoke to, the, what was it? Allegiance of State Employees with disabilities, which is State of Michigan employees, that have disabilities. I have gone to national conferences for students with disabilities, I have had speaking opportunities, I’ve gotten to travel around a little bit and meet a lot of people, it was an awesome networking opportunity just for me for a personal standpoint. that wasn’t the only thing like, I a lot of people think, its kinda like the jeep syndrome, you drive a jeep everyone thinks everyone who has a jeep waves to everybody who has a jeep. OK, you’re in a wheelchair people think so and so, you work at Dow, do so and so? Well, there’s like 2 or 3 thousand people I’ve met with. You never know it’s a small town. So, people think because you have some sort of disability people think everything about every disability. Which is, isn’t further from the couldn’t be further from the truth. I was able to meet a lot of different people who have different disabilities, who who’s children have disabilities, or who know someone with a disability. And I have been able to go and speak to people with new disabilities injuries and stuff like that. Spinal injuries around the area, stuff like that. So it was a huge learning for me to be involved with them. I mean it opened up my eyes a lot ? I was able to I’m kind of a focal point for corporate center accessibility. So anytime, our facilities, is looking to put in automatic doors, or whatever I work with them. in doing that. Well I have to take in consideration for other disabilities, people who are blind, people who are deaf, things like that. So, again its my scope was just spinal cord injury, physical disabilities, using a wheelchair right. So that kind of helped me open up my perspective more and see a broader, aspect of disabilities I guess scope. Page 9 �Excuse me, and it was also and this is one of my favorite parts because, I like to give back to, people or anyone or anything that gives me an opportunity, so the opportunities I’ve had a Dow and with Den and with my career, with my growth and the people I’ve been able to work with, and meet through the company and through Den, have been awesome. And I naturally want to give back. So, by being visible around the company and having trying to fill the high profile and whatnot, I think opens up other people’s eyes, right . And helps them to learn, and maybe and however way in everyone is personal but a source of inspiration for them in some way. and everything whether I’m going on a business trip seeing what I do on a daily basis to get around and do the things I do, I think people have a greater appreciation for what they have. I hope so, ? because it’s a workout everyday, both physical and mental. And yeah I’m in pretty good shape (laughing) upper body ? (Laughing) So, you’re transcribing this right? FAORO: Yeah (laughing) LICHON: And but I mean getting up in the morning, is a lot more work than falling out of bed I could actually hurt myself. Falling in bed for you is probably just because your really tired or something, (Laughing) I have to really, I have to take care of myself that much more, to be able to go on to the things I want to do in life. so its it takes longer in the morning to get ready, somewhat. And especially like, however busy the last day or several days were, my upper body, I mean my arms are my legs ? Arms are not built to do the work that legs are built to do. So, if I’m going the halls in Dow are ridiculous in length. they have even though its not 70’s shag carpet, they have a carpet down through the halls and stuff, and that adds to the drag, I mean just little things like that make it a little more difficult to get around. But, I’ve conditioned myself to do that, but still, over the course of a day a busy day, your doing meeting after meeting, and your not only exercising yourself mentally your taxing from that perspective. But, you’ve got the physical aspect in there too. how many times a day I think man, I’m exhausted mentally or something you just had a busy day of classes, or its hot. You get tired right? Your ready to cash out, so being physically and mentally exhausted, when you get up in the morning the last thing you want to do is get up. Even though my mind isn’t mentally exhausted, my arms might and my shoulders and stuff. So, I still have to take care of myself, I mean, if I sprain a wrist, or tear a rotator cuff or something like that. I mean that will have a massive effect on my ability to do things, ? Just I go to physical therapy still, 18 years later I’m going twice a week, as a maintenance program, because of my injury I get muscle spasms. If I have a stressful day my legs are going to be like super tight, I’m always trying to stretch them out and move them around, and stay active just to keep them limber, things like that. So, I’m going to physical therapy, weekly massage which I always feel kind of snooty saying that but it’s important because it helps the skin integrity because you can get skin break down with spinal cord injury because your sitting down all the time, ? That’s another consideration I’ve taken account, if I get a pressure sore, where your sit bones are, because I have muscle atrophy your not using your legs like you used to. I mean just think if you stopped working out, or having your hockey practice and things like that, your probably not going to be in serious shape, if you not using them. LICHON: So at any rate, there’s a lot of different considerations, that I have to take into account, and but, where I tie this all back to, or I always try to tie this my injury my disability back to is that, every Page 10 �single person people with disabilities don’t want to be seen as, as different as being identified by their disability. FAORO: Like you said you don’t want to be defined by it. LICHON: Right, right, yeah, and so how I tie it back I say that everybody is the same well (laugh) there not, ok. I mean you two are as different from each other as you two are everybody does things in their own way. so, no people don’t want to say ok, your disabled, they don’t want to hear that. Or that you have a disability or anything, so so, we want to identify that we have an injury. I don’t think of myself as having a disability, I do things differently because I have to, because I have what I call an injury, right. It’s classified as a disability right? so is I think addiction to coffee or something, I don’t know, some weird things like, in the American medical association. So, people may be born with, who end up being like multiple sclerosis or muscular dystrophy or things like that, that’s a genetic thing, and fortunately with spinal cord injury, its not debilitating like some of those conditions or what not. its with spinal cord injuries its like something you acquire throughout the course of you life, so I identify it as my injury, I know its classified as a disability, and I’m not saying that people can’t say it’s a disability or anything like that, because it doesn’t bother me right. And so, when people ask like “Well aren’t you mad?” or “Aren’t people with disabilities mad, angry at life and this and that?” I’m like “Alright buddy,” people think that, they think they were dealt an unfair hand in life. I say it was such a po, I mean, if I had the choice being on my feet or not, yeah I’d be walking, just the opportunities I’ve been given, and the people I’ve met that I’ve mentioned have been just so incredible over the past 18 years. How can you say its been disabled? So, when people say are you mad, or aren’t people with disabilities angry at life, if you were an angry person before an injury or disability than you will probably be the same after. You are who you are right? And, yeah I’ve had my challenges of trying to figure out, especially when all of my friends were going away to college I was going to Delta. I had a challenging time of trying to figure out like “Man this Is kind of scary now, its getting real,” Your so busy in high school and everything that its you don’t really pay attention, I mean you just always go, go, go. And then when things maybe start to slow down, and you have to kind of choose a direction, what’s that direction you want to choose? I didn’t like the alternatives not going forward, and people are like, “Have you ever thought, considered a thought of committing suicide?” No, frankly it scares me, so no, I’m like, “That’s not in me,” what I mean? and so, the people who think that or, or, think its OK to go go shoot up a school, you see it in many different aspects of life not just disabilities, people’s attitudes are, I know this might sound cliché, but peoples attitudes are the biggest disabilities ? What people choose to do with their life is their choice, people don’t take enough accountability for themselves, responsibility for themselves, and its your own fault if you don’t make of yourself what you want to do in life. With me, I have this opportunity in my injury to get out and make something of it, and to go, achieve greatness (laughing). I mean kind of tongue and cheek, but there is a lot of seriousness to that ? And so, again it goes back to when I, when I get old and grey, or older and grey, then I don’t want to look back and say “ man I wish I did that, or gosh I’m ticked I didn’t do that, or make something of myself,” because its fun being here (laughing) ? And having life we don’t know what comes after. But, your still why not have fun while you’re here and take the most to seize every opportunity that you can, and and when you get to the end of say, “alright I did my best.” Page 11 �FAORO: I have a question more about like, now I know you said about your physical rehabilitation and your very obviously comfortable, but was it always that way? Or was there like a mental rehabilitation you kind of had to go through first? Like to get comfortable and get acceptance? LICHON: Yeah, absolutely, the same magazines that I said I wrote for, “paraplegic news and spokes in sports” I didn’t want anything to do with them when I got home from rehab in Grand Rapids, I thought they were the same thing I didn’t want to identify with, and now I end up writing for them and I have subscriptions to them for years. FAORO: Do you think it had to do with maturity to? as you got older, or just kind of you were young and it was just kind of a different mindset then. LICHON: Sure, yeah absolutely, yeah your 15 years old how mature are you really? We think we are but its just like so and I’ve always, I guess been told that I have a higher maturity level which I guess is maybe contributed to handling it the way I did when I was at Mary Freebed in Grand Rapids I had to see a social worker like starting out for a few weeks once or a couple of times. And she said to me, “Don’t you think that your taking this a little too well?” And that was the last appointment I had with her, because it ticked me off that she would ask such a thing, I’m like, “How could you take this too well?” There’s a difference between being what’s the word? like between oblivious to something or ignorance is one thing, I mean you could, ignorance you could learn and correct that. but denial I think is another thing, and I wasn’t denying because in the story I tell people and I’ll get to my struggle here in a minute but the story I tell people that I’ve kind of kept as my attitude throughout is that the next morning following my accident I woke up, tubes coming out of me everywhere, monitors up keeping track of my heartbeat, my mom and my dad and a nurse. And I’ve just gotten contact lenses and was having a heck of a time getting used to them and putting them in and everything. So, I woke up and there were like a lot of friends out in the lobby and my sister was out there and stuff. But there was just the 4 of us in the room and I started looking around and I felt that I could see clearly and I’m like looking at the monitors and like “this is kind of weird ” I was conscious throughout the entire night but I don’t remember it, they did all sorts of tests throughout the night to figure out what happened and stuff. but, so I knew what had happened, I kind of knew, OK, this sucks or something pretty serious had happened. That’s about all I needed to know at that particular point. To figure out that some things are going to have to start to change. So I’m looking around and its clear and I’m like, I’m looking at everybody my mom and dad, I just woke up and there just like, “Oh hey Jeff,” and I’m like, “Hey, are my contacts still in?” And they all just looked at each other like I was nuts. Whats this kid worrying about his contacts for? (Laughing) FAORO: My contacts (Laughing) LICHON: Yeah, because that, at 15 those are some of the things your, your worried about I guess right? so I always say to people, “My first thought was OK, what’s next? Life goes on and what’s next, what do I have to do here? There’s still things that I have to worry about besides figuring out what the next step is.” I didn’t know what would come next, I didn’t know I would have to start learning again how to get into a car and get dressed, and shower and all that stuff, but I guess I was going to find out . But at any Page 12 �rate, I mentioned earlier that at out of high school some of my friends stuck around and also went to Delta or FSU and some of my friends went away, and then after like the first year some of my other friends went away and I started figuring out I was going to have to make some choices . Be a big boy, get grown up and determine what the next however many years of my life were going to be. Or even the next day sort of thing. So, started kind of freaking me out, I’m like, “I’m not quite feeling myself here,” it’s a little scary I mean that’s intimidating for anybody to figure out what they want do, let alone someone at 15, 16, 17 or 18 who just has an injury like I had or some sort of disclosure. So, at that point I’m like, “OK I think I need to start maybe talking to somebody, and sorting through these things,” so I started going to counseling for, I don’t know a year and a half maybe, it started out once or twice a week or so, and basically all that amounted to or people say, “ Oh your seeing a shrink,” Ok that’s there perspective or attitude. But the thing was I needed to figure things out, and what that allowed me to do was to unravel what I had wound myself up into, through my 15, 16 years of life, and actually disconnect myself from qualities that I felt were not gonna be beneficial to me not just from a personal perspective but from my injury perspective, what I mean? so, I mean there were a lot of things I found like the more negative I am the more tone I get in my legs the more stress I feel, and the more toll it takes and so the more I can figure out how to work around those moments or situations the better off I’m going to be in the long run. The more longevity I’ll be able to have because I think, a small part of me I think I have a self destructive personality in some (laughing), I like to have fun and party, get a little wild skiing or whatever stuff like that. Well but, at the same time your those things are going to be that much more detrimental to me if I were to get injured like I mentioned earlier, like if I injured my arms or my shoulder or whatever. And so, same thing mentally is that I had to kind of deconstruct myself a bit and not only did I relearn physical things like getting dressed and showering etc. but I also started to have to relearn myself, and why do I behave certain ways? maybe I’m upset or angry about my parents being divorced when I was in the 8th grade ? Well, OK, let go of that. Or maybe I’m angry because my friend didn’t let me sit shotgun (Laughing). Honestly, we store so much of that in our selves that we don’t even realize and I mean I literally no, I guess its not literally, but I pick myself apart to figure out what was going to be in my best interest to be as a person going forward, and so that was one of the most helpful and transformational periods in my life . I didn’t like start going to the top of the hill screaming hallelujah or anything like that or become like, I was born and raised Catholic and stuff I have very deep values and faith and what not and definitely there’s the aspect I feel that God helped me through a lot of the stuff but it wasn’t that fanatical. FAORO: You didn’t like see the light; you kind of had to way your way through it. LICHON: Yeah, I think we all have to help ourselves here and still like I mentioned have that accountability and responsibility for yourself, and I just wish that a lot more people could go through, go through that who maybe were heading or are heading in a direction that they may not want to see themselves going things like that, so yeah so it was definitely that was the most challenging mentally, but it was the best I think thing for me to go through because I was able to, it was like a rebirth in a lot of ways, and yeah so now as they say “the rest is history,” I mean I still now have, I mean I’m still the same person I was then, I just like I said I changed a lot of things about the way I act, react or how I Page 13 �respond to things or different situations and stuff like that. Which, I still get ticked off if I have a hard day at work (Laughing). FAORO: Yeah, like anyone. LICHON: Yeah my boss is so, getting on my case and stuff (Laughing). Sorry Eli (Laughing), no I challenge back (Laughing) but I choose my battles more now than I probably would have what I mean? So, yeah, I think a lot of where I am now is just kind of a testament to that period that I went through ? so, RYTLEWSKI: It really seems like with this injury it really hasn’t limited you at all, I mean not at all, I mean you still do things, your kind of like proving to people that look you has a disability. LICHON: I do things the way I have to do them, which are different from the way Mike does them, or you do them, or you do them, I mean I play hockey sled hockey. RYTLEWSKI: I want to play that sometime. LICHON: Dude, you have to come out its awesome, I’m trying to get a team together. RYTLEWSKI: I gotta do it sometime, you told me about it. LICHON: Yeah, they have a sled there so, I have my own hockey sled I have my own hand cycle, so I still go biking, I’m working on getting my own down hill sit ski for snow, and like I mentioned I’m going water skiing in a week, in a week from today because I want to get my own water ski, so I’ll have my own equipment so that when I go up with friends I don’t have to depend on an adaptive sports association, which is who I learned to ski with Michigan Adaptive Sports, I won’t have to depend on the weekends and the places that they go, I can go with friends now, skiing places, I can go water skiing when my friends get boats (Laughing). Or when I get one but things like that and I guess the hunting and fishing thing there’s still like my nber one passion there, and with hunting its water, and that’s kind of the hardest thing to do your going out in the marsh, your going out in a cut corn field, or your taking boats with lots of equipment, your setting decoys you’ve got your retriever with you, not your buddy your dog (Laughing) and things like that so I mean your pulling the canoe off your truck or off your trailer. I had a jet ski and I managed that completely by myself independently while I had it. loved it (Laughing) I miss it so much! I want it back (Laughing) and things like that so but I think when I get a house I’ll be able to get everything set up. Right now I have a condo, and its difficult like I want a dog so bad, we grew up with female black labs and that’s exactly what I’m going to get, but I’m not going to get it at a condo. Why did I get a condo? Well I came back from D.C. and I was starting a new position, I wanted I’ve been renting for ten and I wanted to not have to worry about exterior and keeping up with the lawn and stuff because I’m pretty meticulous like, I guess I’m anal about that stuff ? Its like, so I didn’t want to necessarily want to focus on that stuff, I had enough challenges but I want to get a house eventually. get my female black lab and then I’ll start acculating more stuff and all my hunting and fishing trust me I’ve thought through a lot of it already too. I need a pulley system to store boats up canoes and stuff like that up in the ceiling of the pull barn or in the garage, tie it to the wall and lower it down things like that. So, I’ve thought through a lot and now a lot more equipment is Page 14 �coming like I want to get an Argo, which is a six or eight wheel all-terrain but they are completely hand controlled. The thing is though the one I’m looking at is like $23,000 (Laughing) outfitted. RYTLEWSKI: Oh boy. LICHON: But, somewhere down the road but then like a lot more equipment like lawn mowers, riding lawn mowers are hand controlled now. I cut my dads grass with his Exmark, hop on that and go buzz around. It’s a feeling of freedom still being on a four-wheeler; I’ve had that since ‘97. I keep it up at my dads because he has a pull barn and lives out on the base so I can go out riding around there and stuff. But, I’ll have to figure all of that out myself eventually. (Ring) FAORO: Well we hit the hour mark at least. LICHON: So who do you have to turn this into now? RYTLEWSKI: Well we have to type it up and give it to our teacher. LICHON: Good luck with that, I was all over the place. FAORO: We do 20 minutes each, so we will break it up. RYTLEWSKI: We get to talk about you to the entire class. FAORO: Yeah LICHON: Sweet FAORO: Well we will be nice LICHON: Should I come in at the end with like a superman cape on or something (Laughing) Your gonna blow me up that big or something or Dahli Llama outfit or something (Laughing). RYTLEWSKI: You hungry? VALLENTINE: Some food LICHON: You want to eat, grab some grub, yeah I mean anymore questions or anything that comes up just I’ll give you my cell if you need to clarify or something. FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: Thank you for doing all of this LICHON: No problem RYTLEWSKI: I’m going to come play hockey with you sometime, all right? LICHON: Yeah, there you go. END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/61583fa63500093ada3dbcd8f2d47c3a.mp3 a0f7107fd8c92cd698c24a5631501254 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Lichon_Jeff Title A name given to the resource Jeff Lichon audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lichon, Jeff Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Faoro, Grace Holtrop, Cody Rytlewski, Eli Vallentine, Michael Description An account of the resource Jeff Lichon was born and raised in West Michigan. He discusses his struggles with disability after being in a car accident at age 15. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History People with disabilities--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-03 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3953bc0fd4b3d533816b1fa3288f438a.pdf 55641b228202b60773a5bdd25bd47956 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jeffrey Sorensen Interviewers: Christina Ober, Anthony Weinke, Michael Doak and Max Sadler Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/4/2011 Runtime: 01:06:51 Biography and Description Jeffrey Sorensen grew up in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan. He discusses the stereotypes and misconceptions of “yoopers.” Transcript Christina: Describe your childhood growing up in the UP. How was it a normal childhood, and/or was it abnormal? Jeffrey: I’d say growing up in the UP, it was mostly normal. I mean, the UP’s a little bit, not as advanced as other places, but like compared to like other people growing up I didn’t have any big differences really. Except for the fact that I didn’t go hunting. Christina: How do people generally perceive ‘yoopers’ the stereotypes or misconceptions? Jeffrey: They all go hunting they all wear camo, we don’t have running water, yeah that’s about it. Christina: Do you think your family had any of those stereotypes that you didn’t? Jeffrey: Well, my brothers both always go hunting, and I don’t. My brothers own camo, and I don’t. All of the male members of my family own guns, and I don’t. Christina: Did your family ever try to influence you to do any of those stereotypes? Page 1 �Jeffrey: Not really, my brothers originally kinda tried to get me to go hunting, but they didn’t really care that I didn’t. I mean, I like shooting guns, so that isn’t a big thing, I just never bought one. Christina: Did you just not want to do it, or did you have other things going on? Jeffrey: It was a combination of I didn’t want to do it really, like it wasn’t my thing, and I was just busy with other stuff going on in school or other things like boy scouts or band or track or anything like that. Christina: How do you think masculinity played a role when you played sports throughout High school? Jeffrey: I don’t think it really was an issue, like I was the head captain of my track team, and everyone listened to me just like they would listen to anyone else, actually probably more than they would listen to them, I never really had any issues with people trying to be more masculine in track, so like trying to dominate my authority or anything like that. Christina: What experience with masculinity or imasculinity did you have during your high school career? Jeffrey: I was always a band geek, so that’s considered less masculine. But then I was also in track, so being in sports is supposed to be more masculine. I don’t know. There wasn’t really too much of a big distinguishment [sic] between masculinity and imasculinity other than when it came to sports. Christina: Do you have any clubs or groups at your school that support gaysor talk about gays at all? Jeffrey: When I was there, we didn’t. The year I left, they made one. Christina: Did you wish there were any? Page 2 �Jeffrey: At one point I tried to start one up, myself, and two other people were trying to start a GSA, a Gay Straight Alliance, but it just didn’t work out, we couldn’t find a teacher that was willing to be the advisor for it. Christina: Do you think that in your high school there were gays that came out, or did you mostly think they hid it, since there was nothing that helped them? Jeffrey: Well, there was, when I was there only one other guy was openly gay. But I know there was other people who were friends of mine that I knew were gay, but they weren’t open to everyone else. Christina: How do you think the idea of masculinity changed when going from High School to college, or do you think it doesn’t? Jeffrey: Well, in college, even less people care. For me, in High School, it wasn’t that big of a deal, but in college, it’s just not a deal, or not a big deal, at all. Nobody really cares. I would say there’s a greater variation of masculinity and imasculinity, but it’s not something that people really care about. Christina: Do you think they have a lot more clubs and things that you can talk to other people like you than your high school? Jeffrey: Yeah, there’s definitely a lot more. I mean, I think of three different groups right off the top of my head, where my high school had nothing. Christina: What experience have you had in college with masculinity or imasculinity? Jeffrey: Um… Christina: Do you partake in any of the groups at Grand Valley? Page 3 �Jeffrey: Well, I’m not involved in any of the LGBT groups at Grand Valley, it’s not really something I care to be a part of, but I’m involved in other groups, like I’m a founding father of a fraternity, which generally you would think a fraternity is this really masculine type organization, but yet I’m still a founding father. Christina: What do you think is the role masculinity plays in a fraternity? Jeffrey: Masculine role in a fraternity? Even the guys in our fraternity who are straight, there’s a lot fo them who really aren’t masculine. Some of them are, some of them aren’t, some of them are kind of in between, so I really don’t think it plays a role. Christina: What kind of stereotype do you think a fraternity has and do you think yours follows in any of those stereotypes? Jeffrey: A lot of those stereotypes are just like that frats like to party, like to drink, that to join you have to go through a huge ordeal, that there’s a lot of hazing, basically just guys that are really macho and a lot of people describe them as tools, but my fraternity, and a lot of fraternities on campus, we don’t really fit those stereotypes, we try not to be tools, which that depends on your definition of tools. But we try not to act like we own the place, like a lot of fraternities do, we’re kind of trying to change that stereotype, especially at Grand Valley. We want to be different, we want to be a diverse group, not a group that’s like a bunch of guys who are all the same. We’ve got a wide range of guys from gay, bi, straight, and then we have a few different races within our fraternity too. Christina: Have you ever had any problems with your fraternity, being gay? Jeffrey: Well, I’m totally open to my fraternity. Everyone knows I’m gay, I have openly talked about going on dates with guys, and nobody’s really cared that I talk about it. We’re all brothers, we support each other, even if someone doesn’t necessarily agree with it, because we’re brothers, they’re going to support it. Christina: Do you think being in a fraternity at grand valley is different than if you were in a fraternity at a bigger school, like Michigan or State? Do you think that you’d be perceived differently as gay? Page 4 �Jeffrey: I think being gay wouldn’t necessarily effect it. It could. The bigger schools tend to have fraternities that have more hazing and stuff like that, and I think that being gay might effect how much I would be hazed. I would assume that a gay person would be hazed more than a straight person. But I would say once they’re in the fraternity it wouldn’t be any different than it is here. Christina: So, if you went to one of those schools, you wouldn’t have thought different about joining a fraternity? Jeffrey: I would’ve thought differently because of the hazing part of it and me being gay, I would expect to be hazed more, so for that reason I probably wouldn’t have gone Greek. Christina: Going back to your childhood, when do you first think you found out you were gay, and describe the process. Jeffrey: I would say I’ve known most of my life. I started getting a pretty good idea of it when I was in 5th grade though. Even before that, looking back, I can kind of see the signs of “oh yeah, I wasn’t the same.” Fifth grade was about the time I was figuring out that I liked guys, and the after a couple more years I was trying to figure out if I just liked guys and liked girls or if I just liked guys, or whatever. After seventh grade I figured out that I’m not attracted to girls at all, and that I’m only attracted to guys. I’d say by eighth grade I knew for sure that I was just gay, not bi. But I’ve showed the signs that I was different since second grade probably. At recess I would play with the girl friends instead of go play sports with the guys, I didn’t like a lot of the same things that the guys liked. I wasn’t into a lot of sports. I mean, I wasn’t into girly things, I just wasn’t into sports so I hung out with girls more often. Christina: You told me before that you dated girls while in High School. Do you think that was a way of you showing masculinity and following in the footsteps of the male figures around you? Jeffrey: I didn’t date girls in high school, but I did in middle school. But I don’t think that was me trying to prove anything to anyone, it was more I wasn’t sure at that point whether I liked girls or if I just liked guys. During middle school, I dated girls to try to figure out if I did like girls or not. At that point I knew that I liked guys, but I needed to figure out whether I liked girls, or if I was just gay. Christina: Describe the event of coming out to your parents. Page 5 �Jeffrey: I told my mom. I never told my dad, but I’m pretty sure my mom told her, him. When I came out to my mom, it was because I was telling her about one of my friends who happened to be gay, and I mentioned that part and she said “well why are you friends with him?” And then eventually she said “If he’s gay, why are you friends with him?” and my response was “because I am too.” And she didn’t take it very well. At first she didn’t really know what to think, she didn’t really believe me I guess. She didn’t know if I knew for sure that I was gay, but at that point I was a junior in High School, and I had known for many years. She even told me I shouldn’t tell my dad. She didn’t want me to really openly pursue a gay relationship, and she wanted me to kinda just for the most part keep it to myself, which to me wasn’t something I could do, and at that point I was pretty much completely open in school, all my friends knew, most of the other people in the school knew, it was just my family that didn’t know at that point. Christina: How did you come out to your brothers, and based on the stereotype of brothers in a family competing to be the best and giving each other a hard time, did that happen? Jeffrey: Well, when I came out to my brothers, both of them had already moved out. I was the only one living at home, and actually at that point I wasn’t really living at home anymore, I was off getting ready for college and I was living with one of my brothers. But, when we were younger we had that concept of brothers always competing, but now that we’re older, we’re just that; we are brothers, and we are family. So, I told my brothers one night, my oldest brother threw a party, and first I told my oldest brother’s fiancé, and then she kinda helped me because she already knew about it, but was trying to get me to tell her on my own time, so once I told her she kinda had me practice, because the goal was to tell my brother by the end of the night. So she had me practice by telling her brother and her best friend, and one of her cousins, and some of the other people at the party, and finally the last person I told was my brother. So we kinda pulled him aside, and she said “your brother has something to tell you.” And she said “it’s something you’ve kinda had suspicions on for a while, but never really knew for sure.” So I just said that I’m gay, and his response was “yeah, and?” My other brother I didn’t tell, but I told his girlfriend, and I gave her permission to tell him, and he already knew too, she told me he already knew, but didn’t want to assume. She just confirmed it for him. With both of my brothers I can openly talk about being gay. If I’m in a relationship with someone, my middle brother I can talk to, he’s okay with me sharing stuff about that. He’s not good at giving any advice, but he’s willing to listen. My oldest brother is a little uncomfortable with the relationships, but that’s mostly just because he’s my brother, and a lot of the time you don’t want to hear about your sibling’s relationships, so it’s just the same concept. But, if I really needed to talk to him, he would be willing to. Like I said, we are brothers, and we outgrew that competing stage and now we’re just completely supportive of each other. Christina: Do you think it helped a lot that your brothers accepted you since your parents technically didn’t? Page 6 �Jeffrey: I would say with my parents being how they were, they didn’t really want me to be open about it, but my brothers are very supportive and they know how my parents reacted so when I officially came out to them they told me like if I can’t go to Mom and Dad for something then I can go to them. They basically wanted to make sure that I knew that just because they’re my brothers and I don’t have sisters they wanted me to know even though they’re guys I can still go to them. They might not know necessarily how to deal with something but because they’re my brothers they will try to help me if I ever need them. Christina: How did you come out to your friends and did you do this before or after you did to your family? Jeffrey: I came out to my friends first, and just like my brothers they already knew, it was just a matter of me telling them, so during my junior year I kind of slowly told my closer friends and the general response was yeah what’s new. Everyone knew, it wasn’t a surprise to anyone it was more a surprise that I was finally telling them. I would say by the end of my junior year I was out to everyone. Of course all of my friends knew and before I even came out everyone pretty much knew I was gay, there wasn’t much surprise there. My closest friends were supportive of it and I kind of left after junior year unsure of how senior year was going to be because I came out to the rest of the school right at the end of the year. Then senior year came around and basically I just walked in the door and flaunted it, but not really flaunted it, but owned it. I was myself. I wasn’t trying to hide anything anymore. I kind of had a hint of what it was like to be myself and for everyone to know who I am and be supportive of that so senior year I didn’t try to hide anything and I was just myself from that point on. Christina: You said that your friends pretty much already knew, do you think your parents had any idea prior to you coming out? Jeffrey: I think they kind of had an idea but a lot of parents aren’t too thrilled to hear if their son is gay so I think they probably kind of had the idea but they were more denying it than anything to the point that they didn’t really believe it. I know my mom was kind of shocked by it but part of that is before that I would come home and say like I heard this rumor about me and it has to do with me being gay and my mom would never ask me if the rumor was true but because I was upset about rumors like that like she just assumed that they weren’t true and I think she assumed that that was kind of my way of saying they weren’t true but because I was her son she was getting the wrong message I guess. Christina: Your relationship with your parents now do you not feel as comfortable now as you did before? Do you think they think differently of you? Jeffrey: I would actually say I’m more comfortable now because like before I was just the oddball son I didn’t do the same thing as my brothers, I didn’t go hunting and stuff like that. I was the one that was always involved in band and other organizations and stuff but never like the big sports but I did track but that’s not considered one of the big sports but like my parents I think before I came out to them they didn’t really have an excuse for me to be Page 7 �different it was just I was the oddball son they never had a problem with it but I kind of did. But then after I came out now they know why I’m a little bit different from my brothers they know that the reason I’m little bit more flamboyant is because I’m gay and a lot of those gay stereotypes that they didn’t have an excuse for before they now have an excuse for. Christina: Have you ever actually sat down with your Dad and talked about being gay or is it basically just your mom? Jeffrey: So far it’s been just my mom and I haven’t even talked to her enough to know what all he knows I just know that he knows I’m gay and that might be the extent of it but between my dad and I it’s just like a unspoken thing. I don’t know if he’s really comfortable with talking about it. He doesn’t treat me any differently he treats me now just like he did when I was a kid so nothings changed there. I know he knows, and he knows that I know he knows and that’s the extent of it. We don’t talk about it, he never brings it up. We’ve actually never talked about it at all. Christina: How does religion play a role and how has it throughout your life? Jeffrey: Most of my life I wasn’t religious at all but then during high school a lot of my friends were really religious, they went to church every sunday they went to the local bible camp and basically the entire summer was filled with different events at the bible camp. I had a lot of friends that did different mission trips and were involved in different ministries all around but I wasn’t involved in that stuff so being friends with those people I started getting more and more involved and I became really religious I was probably one of the most religious of my friends for a while. I went to church every sunday I ended up controlling some of the audio visual stuff at the church and then I was working at the bible camp as a high ropes instructor and when I wasn’t scheduled to instruct there I would help out around there. If they didn’t need any extra help there I would go to another part of the camp and volunteer and help out. I was involved in a worship band that traveled around to all the churches in the area and we did different performances and lead worship and stuff all over the place. We had our own ministry stuff going on throughout the week so on an average week I was doing stuff for different weeks but religion based probably four days a week and then at one point my church kind of caught wind that I was gay and the leaders of the church pulled me aside and asked me about it but I wasn’t really telling them anything and eventually kind of figured out I wasn’t denying it but I wasn’t confirming it either so they figured out what they heard was true so they decided first I couldn’t control the audio visual stuff anymore and they said that was a leadership position and they couldn’t have someone that was gay doing a leadership position. I told them if I wasn’t doing that I wasn’t going to go to their church anymore. I quit going but they basically pulled me back in and said that they didn’t want me to leave it was just because it was a leadership position and they don’t want people to get the wrong idea which I didn’t agree with at all but some of my best friends went to that church so I didn’t want to stop going so I decided to keep going. I eventually stopped going to church though. I slowly stopped attending their services every week. First I would go every other week, then every three weeks, and eventually I quit going altogether. I kept going to the youth group at one point one of the Page 8 �leaders pulled me aside and kept asking me about being gay and asking if I was going to change. I told him I wasn’t going to change, I wasn’t willing to change, and it wasn’t possible for me to change. At that point his daughter was my best friend and he told me he didn’t want me ever talking to her again. I quit going to the youth group then. The only reason he became a leader of that youth group was to watch me and make sure I wasn’t going to influence anyone. So I quit going, and I kinda, at that point like, it was the winter so I kind of silently quit working there, cuz it was the off-season so I wouldn’t be working anyway so I just didn’t show up the next summer. Um, and with the worship band at that point they were the only ones that I felt comfortable talking to. Um, so I told the woman who was in charge of the ministry that the worship band was for, and well I told her and her son, and he was becoming one of my best friends. Um, he was the lead in the worship band, and like we hung out quite a bit. Um, so I told the two of them and, they didn’t try to kick me out right away, but they told me they can’t have me like openly gay in the worship band. Um, they said if it just stayed between them they wouldn’t try to kick me out or anything, they just couldn’t have like that image, I guess. Um, mainly because it was nondenominational, um so we were going around to different churches, they didn’t want to do anything that would take away from what a certain church was trying to enforce. So I kept going to the worship band stuff for a while, but they kept trying to kinda say like “have you thought about changing?” like “Are you willing to change?” and I started getting less comfortable with hanging around them so I slowly stopped going to that. So that was like my last religious like organization that I quit going to and like since then I haven’t gone to church, um, when I came to Grand Valley I didn’t start going to church again. Um, I pretty much just like, quit religion. Um, at this point I’m not religious in any way; um I don’t really have any kind of belief system. I’m not agnostic, I’m not atheist, like I just don’t have a belief system, and I don’t really care to develop some kind of belief system, but um, it’s one of those things where I’m open to the idea, but because of my past I’m not going to actively try to develop some kind of new religious beliefs. Christina: Do you think if your church would have been accepting to you in the very beginning that it would be completely different now? Jeffrey: I don’t think that it would be completely different, because I’m sure most of the people at the church knew, maybe not some of the older ones who weren’t used to seeing gay people, but for the most part, all the younger people in the church I’m pretty sure knew, especially the one that went to my school, or even their parents. Like, they all knew so I don’t think it would have been hugely different, and about when I stopped going to the church isn’t really that long before I moved out of the house and moved in with my brother, um downstate just before coming to Grand Valley. So I don’t think it would be that different, but I don’t think I would have like a negative, um, I don’t think I would have some kind of like negative feeling towards religion, if they were accepting right away, but other than how I feel about religion, I don’t think that it would be much different. Page 9 �Christina: Yea, if they, when you came out, if they were completely acceptable of it and said we want you to stay here and we accept that you’re gay, do you think you would have kept going and then when you came to Grand Valley would occasionally think more religiously than you do now or do you think you still would have straight away? Jeffrey: I think if that was the case I probably would have kept going to church, um, while I was there I would have kept going to that church, and then when I came to Grand Valley I probably would have found a church to go to, um, and I might have actually been involved in like a worship band here or something along those lines. Christina: Do you kind of wish that had happened or do you think that it happened for a reason? Jeffrey: I’m for the most part a believer in that everything happens for a reason, and I feel like if the church and the worship band and the bible camp and everything wasn’t or if they were more accepting maybe I would have ended up staying in the U.P., but part of the reason why I came down to Grand Valley was because, the U.P. isn’t as accepting of like gay people. There’s really not that many. So it might have influenced where I ended up now, but like like I said, I am a firm believer in everything happens for a reason, so I feel like part of it was kind of I was meant to maybe not necessarily be non religious, but at least meant to come here. And that was one of the things that kind of pushed me away from the U.P. to come here. Christina: Do you think the religious groups on campus think of gays differently than your church back home do? Jeffrey: Um, I think some of them do, but some of them don’t. Christina: Based on now where you are in your life, do you think everyone is accepting of your orientation? Jeffrey: I think anyone who I associate with like on a regular basis, like anyone who is a friend of mine or involved with any organizations with me, um I would say like they are all completely accepting. Obviously, if they weren’t accepting, they wouldn’t be my friend. Um, I never really hear anything about anyone not being accepting of me specifically, um, I mean obviously I am gonna hear like about people Page 10 �being not accepting of gay people in general, but I never hear it specifically towards me because of me being gay. Christina: Do you find it different in class or anything with the way you look and the way you talk, and how you like perceive yourself, do you find any problems with the peers in your classes or around campus? Jeffrey: Not really, um, Grand Valley has a lot of gay people so it’s something everyone is used to, and like, I mean a lot of people dress really well here, but then at the same there’s gay people here that don’t dress very well at all. So I would say like how I dress isn’t a big issue, because there’s a lot of gay people who dress really well, and there a lot of straight people who dress really well. Um, I would say how I talk is more feminine so like straight guys for the most part like their voice isn’t gonna be as feminine as mine, but like nobody really cares. Um, like everyone is their own person, and I think everyone here like realizes that, so the way different people dress or talk or act like doesn’t really phase anyone. Christina: Do you feel a lot more comfortable through expressing yourself at Grand Valley than you did at home and places away from Grand Valley? Jeffrey: Well, like, when I’m at school at Grand Valley, like I’m completely open I can be myself. There’s no one here that I feel like I need to hide anything from. But then like if I go home, because my parents aren’t comfortable with me being gay, they know about it, but because they‘re not comfortable with it I try to give them that little bit of comfortablility, where like I’m not going to be totally flamboyant in front of them. Um, a lot of my extended family doesn’t know, so I’m not going to act really gay in front of them, um, so when I go home I kind feel like I’m confined to how I acted before I was open, so I don’t really like to go home, but I think as I’m getting older my parents are kind of getting more used to me being more flamboyant because just as I grew up I became more and more flamboyant, because I was kind of becoming more comfortable with myself. It’s just not to the point where I’m comfortable with my parents, but the older I get the more comfortable I get with it and, and the more I kind of act more like gay in front of my parents. Um, I care about what they think and don’t want to make them uncomfortable, but at the same time I need to kind of put them out of their comfort zone a little bit, because I’m their son so they kind of have to get used to it, because it’s not changing. Christina: Do you think you’re ever going to be completely yourself around them? How long do you think that might take? Page 11 �Jeffrey: Um, well eventually I would like to be. I would like to be open to like my entire extended family. Um, I don’t know if that will actually ever happen or how long it will take. Um, I would say if I did I wanted to start coming out to more people it would probably start with some of my cousins because they are like my age level or somewhere close. So, like they are the ones that because they are younger and I’m sure they have been exposed to more like gay people they would be the ones who would already pretty much know. Just like my friends knew or my brothers knew and a lot of the people in the church knew. So it wouldn’t be a big deal. Um, my like extended family like my aunts, and grandparents, and uncles, um, they might be a lot harder to tell. I think when it gets to that point I might just kind of be myself and let them think whatever they want to think. Um, I don’t really feel like it’s necessary that I go and tell everyone, because if I just be myself they’re gonna know, and if they don’t know, either way they’re family, and knowing my family, like they won’t disown me, like they’ll accept me for who I am. So, I’d say eventually I’ll be out to my whole family, and at that point like, the more out I am to the rest of my family, the more my parents are gonna be exposed to. So the more they’re gonna have to get more comfortable with it. Christina: How do you feel about the laws surrounding being gay? Such as gay marriage. Jeffrey: Well, at some point I would like to be married, so obviously I want the laws to say that gay people can get married. And I prefer to not have to move to different state in order to be married or go to a different state to be married and then come back to my own state and not be recognized. Like if I'm living in Michigan I want to be able to be married and live in Michigan and have that marriage be recognized, or wherever I end up. And then, along those same lines, like most states don't allow for a gay couple to adopt, even if they're allowed to be married, a lot of states don't allow for them to adopt a child and being like two men or two women it's hard to have a child of your own so along those same lines I think it shouldn't be harder for gay people to be able to adopt a kid because they can be just as good parents as a strait couple. Christina: What do you think its going to take for these laws to actually change? Jeffrey: I think its just a matter of time. Slowly more and more states get added to the list of the ones that allow gay marriage and the ones that don't allow gay marriage a lot of theme are allowing civil unions and domestic partnerships, which aren't the same but at least its a step towards allowing gay marriage. Eventually the other states are going to keep adding more and more to what they allow. As a whole, society is becoming more accepting of people who are different in any way. So it's really just a matter of time until enough people are accepting of it that when it comes to a vote people will vote for gay marriage to be legalized and for gay adoption to be legalized. And eventually it will be pretty much as easy to live a gay life as to live a strait life. There's still going to be some hardships for gay people but I Page 12 �think its just a matter of time until it evens out as much as it's going to. Christina: Going back to stereotypes, what do you feel and how do you think the stereotypes for a strait man differ from a gay man? Jeffrey: Stereotypes for a strait man is usually more masculine, plays sports, maybe more muscular guys. And then even like a lot of times one stereotype is what they drink. More masculine men might drink beer, where a gay person may drink a fruity drink. But then the stereotypes with gay people are usually more flamboyant, they dress better. Strait people might wear clothing that doesn't look the greatest or maybe a lot of athletic wear and gay people tend to wear the name brands like Express or BKE and stuff like that, where as strait men don't want to spend the money like that. Even like kind of with the way we act, strait men usually are more macho, try to be like the alpha male. Gay men can be kind of like the same way, but we still want to be like in charge but we kind of have our own way of doing it. We don't just try to just look intimidating and get our way by being big and muscular. But, I would say gay people are generally thought to be more, maybe not smart, but conniving. We kind of know how people think because obviously we are guys so we know how guys think for the most part but we relate to girls so we kind of know how they think too, so we kind of have an edge on things and we tend to have a better understanding of both groups, males and females. Christina: How do you think our society stresses these stereotypes through the media and television and movies? Jeffrey: Well in a lot of TV shows and movies if there's a gay person in it they're usually pretty flamboyant, they don't usually have the strait acting gay people because then you wouldn't really know that they're gay. So generally when you see a gay person on the a TV or movie they're really gay and flamboyant and they probably have a higher voice so I would say with strait people in the media theres a lot of variation there, but when it comes to gay people they don't have a very big variation they mostly just they're all flamboyant. Christina: Do you think the media over exaggerates these qualities in gays and straights? Jeffrey: I would say for the most part with strait people they don't over exaggerate because there's enough variation and they show the variations with different strait people, but with gay people, like I said they tend to show mostly the really flamboyant guys so there really isn't enough of a variation to go away from enforcing the stereotype. Page 13 �Christina: Do you think the media is slowing changing into showing more of these gays that are in sports and gays who are in fraternities over how they use to show gays? Jeffrey: I would say in general gay people are showing up in the media a little bit more so that kind of overflows into showing more gay people in fraternities or gay people in sports, but I would say that overall because they're showing more its just overflowing to all areas where its considered a more masculine thing. Christina: Okay, those are all of my question, do you guys have any? Michael: I'm kind of curious because you reference masculinity a few times, and I know its a hard question to kind of deal with it but how would you describe masculinity? Jeffrey: I would say to me masculinity is more like the macho, involved in the things that are considered more manly, like sports and being muscular. Where as femininity is when someone is more girly, flamboyant, cares about their looks a little bit more, and dresses well. Anthony: Was track the only sport you did in high school? Jeffrey: Track was the only sport I did just because I was also involved in the band so during the other seasons I would be doing stuff with the band so track was the only season I was available for. Anthony: Is there any reasons besides track that you didn't do the other sports, I know like football and basketball are stereotyped as more masculine or macho thing to do? Did that play a role? Jeffrey: Well I didn't really like football so I don't really know if me being gay was the reason or not. I just didn't like football. So thats why I wasn't in that. But then when it came to basketball season the jazz band played during basketball games so thats why I wouldn't be involved in it so I actually like basketball so I think if I wasn't so involved in the band I would probably have tried out for the basketball team. I wouldn't have been that great but I would have at least tried out for the JV team. Page 14 �Anthony: Did you say you were also in boy scouts? Jeffrey: Yea, I was involved in boy scouts between like fifth grade and senior year. Anthony: How far did you go with that? Did you stay with it pretty actively? Jeffrey: For the most part as long as I was in it I was pretty active. Kind of the last couple years I was involved in so much other stuff that it was hard for me to be really active in boy scouts but I went to as much as I could. Anthony: Did you, in boy scouts, were you like openly gay with them and the other scouts in the group or with the adult leaders? Jeffrey: Not with the adult leaders. Some of the scouts that were right around my age that were right within a few grades of me knew, but by the time I was a junior or senior we had scouts who were in the seventh or eight grade and I didn't feel like it was appropriate for me to be completely open in front of them so they didn't know and then the leaders didn't know. Michael: I'm kind of curious, you said that in, I think it was middle school you weren't really interested in sports at all, or more in general in elementary school you weren't that interested in sports and you considered that sort of a sign that you were gay. What changed your mind I guess because I'm kind of curious what the evolution was between that and then high school wanting to possibly play basketball and being in track? Jeffrey: I would say in elementary school the big sport was football, no one really played basketball at recess. People just went out to the field and played football and I wasn't a big contact sport type of person so I would say it wasn't so much I wasn't interested in sports in general, but more I wasn't interested in the sports being played at that time. So then in middle school, I had always been a good runner, mostly because I was always running away from my brother but because I was such I good runner I really began to enjoy running so therefore I enjoyed track and I became one of the fastest runners so I was one of the people becoming in charge of the group so that’s why I was involved in track an why I enjoyed it so much. And then with basketball, I'm not sure what really attracted me to Page 15 �basketball but its not like a big contact sport so I think that was a big reason why I like basketball verses football. Anthony: I have one more, you said there are a lot of like adult leaders in your troop and your parents, do you think that’s a generational thing where they're not as okay with it and do you think as America as a whole becomes more okay with it is it older adults becoming okay with it or do you think it's just a lot of younger people? Jeffrey: I would say some adults are becoming more okay with it. The big thing is they didn't grow up with it so it something that they have to adjust to after already kind of knowing how society works, it's like its changing so they have to adjust to it. Which not everyone is totally okay with doing, But our generation is growing up with gay people being in the media, and just knowing gay people, and seeing gay people in public. So I think, and this might sound a little bit morbid, but as the older generations die off and what’s left is the younger generations it will become more accepted as a whole. Christina: Alright, thank you. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0b9bda8f76e0e8703267045019bdd6ae.mp3 ff89646dd1ee3686fc17287e221f769f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Sorensen_Jeffrey Title A name given to the resource Jeffrey Sorensen audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sorensen, Jeffrey Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ober, Christina Weinke, Anthony Doak, Michael Sadler, Max Description An account of the resource Jeffrey Sorensen grew up in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan. He discusses the stereotypes and misconceptions of "yoopers." Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-04 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c3759c082fb95b408f14ad4377331109.pdf b8a72c2bf8092f2d6e9d67d7b58432a9 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jordan Serla Interviewers: Julie Doescher, DeVonte Jones and Krysten Velderman Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/15/2011 Runtime: 01:05:44 Biography and Description Jordan Serla discusses growing up gay in a small town. Transcript Julie: How old are you? Jordan: I’m 18 Julie: And, what is your gender? Jordan: Uhm… male (laughs loudly). Julie: What is your sexual orientation? Jordan: I’m gay (laughs). Julie: If you could describe yourself, uhm, how would you like, identify yourself? Using anything you can think of by using 3 or 4 words. Jordan: Definitely diva, uh, I can be a bitch (everyone laughs). Uhm, I’m a riot. I’ve never had someone hang out with me that didn’t want to hang out with me afterwards (laughs). Uh, you can ask Rachel I’m a riot (laughs). And, I’m crazy. Julie:(laughs) Okay. (all laugh). Julie: Tell me a little about your childhood, what it was like growing up. Jordan: Uhm, I grew up like, like, if you saw me now, you would not even dare to think that I grew up the way that I did. Uhm, I grew up in, well I started out in Saginaw Township, which was a nice little town, I mean if you get to the wrong side of Saginaw it’s a little bit iffy there, but (laughs) I grew up in the Township area, I went to school there blah, blah, blah. Had an awesome childhood in, for the most part, but I mean uhm, and then I moved to Decatur, do you want all of the childhood details? (laughs) Page 1 �Julie: Yeah, definitely! Jordan: Okay (laughs). Because uhm, I mean, when I was little I, in probably 2nd grade, I filed child abuse on my dad, my step dad because he was very, very like, aggressive. Julie: It was your step dad? Jordan: Yeah Julie: Okay Jordan: Like, I mean there were lots of times, where he would just like. I remember one time I left my coat on the floor downstairs, and he just picked me up and whipped me down the stairs and I smacked my head on the back, on the table that was down there. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Yeah, it was bad. Like, any time he came around me, like one time he chased me down the stairs and picked me up, and I just pissed my pants because I was so scared (he laughs). Julie: All gasp, oh my gosh. Jordan: I was pissed cause I loved those jeans (laughs) (Everyone laughs loudly.) Jordan: But uhm. Julie: And was your mom and real dad present or? Jordan: Uhm, my mom and real dad separated when I was one. So, my step dad came into my life when I was 3, married my mom when I was 5, uhm, around 6 is when he started getting like, aggressive, and violent towards me and my brother. And uhm, like uh, it was just… I knew it was wrong and my brother just like, never did anything about it. Like, any time child protective services would try to help, he would deny it and then like, my mom would go in and tell them I was crazy. (laughs) Julie: Is your brother older or younger? Jordan: Yeah, he’s 21. Julie: Okay Jordan: Yup Julie: But, uh. Julie: So your mom didn’t do anything or? Jordan: Nope, she denies it to this day. Julie: And your dad, does he know anything? Page 2 �Jordan: Yep, yep he knew about a lot of it, he tried to do what he could, but uhm, I mean when you’re, he’s a cop, so you can’t really do anything. Julie: Yeah.. okay. Jordan: And uhm, so that’s how that went. Uhm, it continued for a long time until I started getting older and he started calming down. Stopped doing it as much, like, stopped all that. Uhm, like, it happened a few times when I was in, like 7th and 8th grade. That kind of stuff, that was after we moved to Decatur. Julie: Okay Jordan: I went from like, a normal suburb life to like, hick town in the country (groans) (All laugh quietly) (He laughs.) (We all laugh.) Jordan: Uhm, that was kind of an interesting place. It just, like I think that’s the place that made me strong. Uhm, Julie: And why is that? Jordan: Uhm, just because like, being the way I was, like I mean, I wasn’t open. But, I still, you could kinda tell. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I wore fashionable clothes, and, like, my hair was always done up and stuff like that, you could tell but I still reached my way to the top of the popularity pyramid at a hick town. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, high school. Like, if I can do that, then what can’t I do. Julie: Is your, do you talk to your step dad? Jordan: Uhm, Julie: Like, right now or? Jordan: Uhm, if I go over there I’ll say high and that’s it. I don’t talk to him unless I need him. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: For various cop stuff, (laughs) Julie: And, would you say that your family is close? Or your you know, with your brother, you only have one brother? Page 3 �Jordan: I have 6 siblings. Julie: Oh wow. Okay Jordan: Eh, yeah. Jordan: And the thing is, my dad, uhm, he had my older sister. She’s 26. She’s heavily into meth (laughs). Julie: Okay. Jordan: Everyone’s got their problems. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: Uhm, she, she does, yeah we don’t really talk to her right now, because of all that, but yeah, uhm. And then I have two half brothers from there I have a step brother that’s from my dad’s new wife, uhm, and then I have two little sisters that my mom and step dad had, uhm, like, when I was 7. My little sister was born when I was 7, yeah. And then the other one when I was 10. Julie: Okay. And then are you close with them, or Jordan: Not really. Julie: Okay Jordan: I mean I was really close to my sister, she was my idol, and like, growing up it was like Shawna… she was there. She was the coolest sister ever, but now it’s like… Julie: Oh. The one that Jordan: Yeah… that one. Uhm, yeah now it’s like, I can’t believe what you turned into because you had so much potential. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And that kind of thing, but uhm, my brother is the one that I’m closest with. Julie: Okay Jordan: Uhm, he’s actually, like, cause we grew up every day together. Like, he was my only, he’s my only full blood brother. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like all my other siblings are half siblings, and uhm, well… yeah so that’s the ones I’m close with. As far as my other family goes, I’m not really a family person. I’ve always felt closer with my friends than I ever have with my family. Uhm, my mom even though all the stuff with my childhood I try to move on with it because, when no one else was around, me and my mom had a bond that was like no other. Page 4 �Like, we just get each other we have the same sense of humor, like, just do the same things. Like, both hard core bitches (all laugh). Julie: And your dad? Jordan: Uhm, my dad. I got a pretty good relationship with my dad. Uhm, I just saw him a couple of days ago. Like I mean, I’ve been around my dad, when I was… uhm sophomore year, my whole life, ever since, probably like 8th grade I’ve gone down to Saint Joe, and, uhm, stayed with my aunt and uncle, like all summer, and like the weekends and stuff like that. Like the weekends after I got my car and I could drive down there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: But, I would go and stay the whole summers, and they gave me a job so I could make money, uhm, they put me in a good environment, uhm around kids where I could learn and like, they just taught me a bunch of stuff that, you know, like your parents, my parents didn’t give a shit enough to tell me, and my dad couldn’t be there for me, so, Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Uhm, there was that. So that’s how I ended up in Saint Joe. Uhm, how I moved, I moved junior year to Plainwell, and that was pretty much the breaking point of that was going to Saint Joe and seeing my uncle and living with them for the summers and weekends was like what kept me going in life. It was just, it kept me motivated. And uhm, let me know what I wanted in life. And, uhm, my step dad uhm, didn’t like that, and we were seeing a therapist, a family therapist at the time. Because… they thought I was crazy (laughs nervously). But, uhm, and then the therapist said that he needs to spend more time with his family, and that’s the last thing I wanted to because I hated them. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, so, I told my dad that they weren’t going to let me go over to my aunt’s house anymore, and, he’s like, well that’s it and he told my step mom, and my step mom’s like okay, you can move in with us next year. Start school over here, and uhm, that’s what I did. I moved to Plainwell, bigger school. More opportunities, loved it. Graduated early, I haven’t been in school (gasps) for like 9 months now, (laughs). (All laugh) Jordan: It’s been awesome. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: I start school in December though, but it’s a school that I actually like. Julie: Okay. And, uhm, what would you say your hobbies are, what do you like to do? Jordan: I like to draw (quietly laughs) Looks around because there are paintings up on his walls of his artwork. Page 5 �(All quietly laugh). Jordan: I like to paint. Julie: Uh-huh (laughs) Obviously. Jordan: I love to shop, and I love to spend money. (All laugh again). Julie: that be something… painting… that be something that maybe would be a possible career choice? Jordan: Uhm, the arts is a career that I’m going into. Julie: Okay Jordan: If, like, you look at the artistic point of view, I’m going into cosmetology. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, my dad’s best friends daughter is a runway model out in L.A. Julie: Wow. Jordan: So, as soon as I finish school, I’m gonna go to Chicago next year, get some experience, like learn how to do what I need to do, and then I’m goin straight out to L.A. and work my way to the top.. A-List, here I come! Julie: (All laugh) Awesome, so what would you want to do as your career, like, be a hair stylist in L.A.? Jordan: Yeah, for celebrities. I’m gonna be a platform artist I never wanna work in a salon, after I get my experience because I’ve worked in a salon as a receptionist and I’ve seen how evil those bitches are. And I do not want to live a life where I have to go to that every day, and deal with that, and just, the petty, stupidity. So I’m gonna be a platform artist, and do my own stuff. I’m gonna do hair shows, celebrities, that kind of thing. Runways, all that stuff. Julie: Okay, awesome. Jordan: That’s the stuff that I like. I don’t want to be tied down (half laughs). Julie: Uhm, so you said that, uhm you were really close with a lot of your friends, as oppose to family, uhm, so what kind of people did you hang out with? Has it changed from who you hang out with now in high school, or? Jordan: Uhm, I’ve always been really good at finding like, legit friends. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 6 �Jordan: Like, uhm, I’ve had the same, I’ve always like, because I am gay, I’ve always needed a guy best friend and a girl best friend. My guy best friend I found when I was in 6th grade. We’re still friends to this day, like, talk to him all the time. Julie: Wow Jordan: Uhm… so, it’s been a long time (laughs) Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: So, but I’ve always switched girl best friends because I’ve never found the right fit. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, but when I do pick em, I pick them really good. Like, all my best friends that I have had, I still talk to em. Like, I still talk to them and I’m still close with them it’s just there not.. there. Right now I’ve I’ve found the one. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, it’s Tara (laughs). She’s my best friend. Like I could talk to that girl about anything, so comfortable around her. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, we do the most stupid shit ever (all laugh). We just sit there and laugh. (Laugh again). Jordan: Uhm, so like as far as friends go, like, I mean, the kind of friends that I hang out, have all varied, uhm, I’ve figured out that, although I listen to pop music, and I love country, and like, all that bubbly like, like (laughs) dancin music, uhm.. I love all that. And all, my two closest friends are all like into die hard death metal screamo, like nasty like I feel like Satan’s gonna come out of my radio (all laugh again). Uhm, so there like, there kinda rocker-ish. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: So they’re different from you? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: You like that? Jordan: Yeah, they’re like opposite of me. Uhm. Like I don’t get how I can become such good friends with people like that. But, it just happens (laughs). Julie: Yeah Page 7 �Jordan: Love it Julie: Uhm, are you religious? Jordan: Uhm, I’m not really religious. Julie: Okay, have you ever been or are your parents? Jordan: Parents, definitely. My mom always told me that gayness was devil spirits in your brain possessing you. Which now, just sounds crazy to me. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Uhm, I don’t believe in the Bible. I believe that uhm, if you look it up; the opposite of godly is religion. And uhm, so I’ve just I kind of believe what I believe. I believe that there’s a greater thing up there. Cause, like I mean, when I’ve been in shitty situations I pray, and, everything gets resolved so, it makes me feel like there’s something up there, and just the thought of it makes me feel more comfortable. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Knowing that, there is something. But as far as like, the Bible goes, and sinning. I don’t believe in sinning, that’s crazy. How can, how could you just be put on this earth, and, then given, how is a man supposed to die for your sins and, like, now like, you can sin and be forgiven? Like, I don’t believe there are sins, I believe that there is choices that you make, and there’s right and wrong choices, of course, but as far as sins go, and there’s something wrong, and like, God’s just frowning down on you for doing that, like, that’s just crazy. (Laughs). I just don’t believe in that, and if you do, that’s fine. But, that’s just not something I believe in. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I mean, I believe Jesus is there. I believe God ‘s there, but, as far as like, God doesn’t like that, that you did that, like, I don’t like that. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: I mean I do believe in karma, what goes around comes around. And, I mean I’ve definitely had my fair share of bad karma, and I’ve had my fair share of good karma (a horn beeping goes off from his cell phone) and I’m at that point in my life where I realize, doing stupid things like stealing from people, like that (points to a gnome he stole) brings bad karma. Like, I mean, that’s not something I want in my life, and you know, I’ve gotten a couple doses of good karma in my life and I like it too much to give it up (we laugh) (he laughs), so ha. Julie: And when your mom did tell you that uhm, she didn’t, you know, uh, did you believe that at the time? Were you young? Or, like does she still think that, tell you that? Or has she changed? Jordan: (Laughs) Uhm, she won’t tell me that now because I’m pretty sure she has an idea (we laugh). She’s always asking my brother, and my brother’s like “Uh I don’t know ha ha” Page 8 �(We laugh). Jordan: He’s like, it’s not my decision to tell her. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Cause it’s not, but uhm. (Laughs). Well, uhm… like I mean it was always in the back of my mind growing up. Like, just like, uhm. I was actually home schooled for two years. I missed that part in my schooling debate that I was telling you about. (All laugh). Jordan: Uhm, 7th and 8th grade I was home schooled which I look back, and am so thankful I was because that’s like your awkward stage where you have time to grow, and I was like, the, I was the, really big like loser, like dirty kid, like uhm. I just, like, the bad kid that’s always gettin into trouble at school. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, like, 5th and 6th grade, and then 7th and 8th grade I had time to grow and like find myself without all these other kids around me judging me all the time, ya know, that kind of thing, I got a chance to kind of like, figure it out, and what I was doing, and like, stuff like that, so. When I went back to high school my freshman year, I was, uhm, it was like my year of adjustment like getting back into everything, and ya know, I was, I made a lot of other friends, and like, some of the people I grew up in 5th and 6th grade like, like, they were a lot different towards me now, and somehow I worked my way up from the chain, and everybody loved me now. Like I can still go back, like I can go to a football game, and they’ll all be there. And I’ll walk through, and they’ll be like AHHHH, (laughs), like they’ll still be all like crazy towards me. Julie: (All laugh). That’s awesome. Jordan: Like they’ll still be all crazy towards me. Julie: Uhm, when did you first know, was there a point? Jordan: I’ve always known. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Always. Julie: So like, really young? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: And what, why happened? Was there any significant moment, or no? Jordan: Uhm, I don’t know you know you can tell that I’m really girly. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 9 �Jordan: Like, I’ve just always been that way. Like when I was little, I used to dress up like a girl. Like I mean I know that’s really weird, but yeah I totally did. And all the time so. My whole family just thought it was weird, but they thought maybe we just have a weird kid. Like, so I’ve always known. Uhm, I don’t know I remember watching tv and like, stuff was getting more sexual and there were guys on the tv that were shirtless and I was like, damnn (laughs). (All laugh loudly). Jordan: So, like I mean I just kind of, like girls, like when you, when you start liking boys you don’t like boys when you’re little, you know, you just don’t. But I remember being little and like being in love with Nick Carter from Backstreet Boys. (All laugh). Julie: Uhm, so, do…have you told your, have you, you’ve told your parents? Or no? Or do they just have some kind of clue? Have you told your brothers and sisters? Jordan: My mom is on to me (laughs). My brother, he, I have like, when I was 15, well since I was 15 I’ve had like an iPod Touch, and I always have these gay apps where I was able to talk to people, and stuff like that, so one time, and I always kept my iPod locked, and then one time I let my brother into it, and he found it, and like with my friend Holly, who lives with me right now, (laughs), so, well she doesn’t live with me right now but she lives like over there in the same apartment complex, but, uhm, but, uhm… oh snap what was I saying. I hate that I get sidetracked, stoner mind. Julie: About Holly, and… Jordan: Oh, well they found that, and like two years went by. And never, never said anything to my brother, even though I knew he knew, because Holly told me of course, and uhm like, him and Holly dated for a while, and like had a little thing, but never really dated, but that’s how I know her and now we’re like tight. She comes over here every night after work and we have girl talk. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, she’ll come over here tonight. Uhm, but… my brother and me, I don’t even remember exactly how it went down. I think he said something and I was just like whatever, because my junior year of high school, I moved to a new school. The way I looked at it is, like Decatur, I already ran that school. Like I already know what it’s like to be the most popular kid in school. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And like, I knew what it was like to be that, you know when I moved to Plainwell, I just wanted real friends. You know? Like, I didn’t, I didn’t want all the showboaty every time I walked down the hallway. Like, I didn’t care about that anymore. I just wanted to have a good high school experience for the time that was left there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 10 �Jordan: Uhm, so when I got there, I didn’t like seek anything out. I still became pretty popular there just on my own, but I didn’t like, I didn’t like go to all the parties that they went to or stuff like that. Uhm, I didn’t like go to the football games or anything, I just hung out with my friends. And like, I had a really close group of friends. Like, one of my closest friends that I used to sit with at lunch every day, every time like, we had trimesters, and we’d always switch lunches and stuff like that, and somehow he always ended up in my lunch, but Drake Black goes to uhm GVSU, and we went to high school together. Uhm, but yeah, he was one of my close friends. I just had this close circle, like, if we hung out after school we’d all hang out, like a bunch of stoners. (All laugh). Jordan: But, like we’d just hang out and do our thing, and uhm, but it was a lot of fun. I found a lot more enjoyment with life by just enjoying it, instead of seeking it out and throughout my high school years when I was living with my mom I was so angry all the time, like, I was such a bitch. That’s how I got to popular, because there were like these girls that would like, think they were all that, and I would just go up and say it to their face, you’re fat and you’re nasty and you’re a piece of shit get the heck out of here. Ya know, I’d just like, I would just give it to them and everyone loved that. Like, they loved having that person who would just say it to their face because no one else would. Ya know, you’d be like “Oh my god I hate that girl, she’s so stupid. I wish someone would just go up and tell her”, and I would be like, I’ll do it. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: It was just all my anger, and I’ve always been ruthless like that. (Laughter again). Julie: And did your friends, and your friends knew. Did you ever talk to them about it? Or they just knew? Jordan: Uhm, my friends at Decatur didn’t know. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Like, I mean I’m sure they had their suspicions. Julie: And you never talked about it? Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Now they know. I mean, if you saw the outfit that I showed up in for graduation there, like I went back and watched all my friends walk, of course. Uhm, but if you saw what I wore, it was pretty obvious. And like, I just, once I moved to Plainwell I stopped caring what people thought, and so I just kinda like, if people asked if I was gay I would be like, yeah (laughs) I am. Julie: But, before uhm, you moved there, you said you would say no? Or would you deny it? Jordan: Yeah, I would totally deny it. Page 11 �Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: I wasn’t comfortable there. And plus it was like a total hick town, but, the thing is like I’ve gone back totally openly gay, and like, when I wear shorts, I wear short shorts. Like, ya know and like, in the summer, I’m totally dressed like a slut, but. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: Like I went back there, and like, they all still like, treat me the same. Which just goes to show ya, like the people that lived there. They were good people. Julie: Yeah, definitely. Julie: Uhm, so, who was the hardest person to tell in your life, or, Jordan: Is going to be? Julie: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Jordan: Uhm, probably my dad because he is so oblivious. Julie: Really? Jordan: Yes, like. I, I’m the biggest girl in the world. He likes to hunt, and like do all this stuff. Like don’t get me wrong, I can shoot a gun like no other. I was down, I went shooting down with Greg at the shooting range, like when you shoot the clay pigeons, well, I went down there and there’s just like all these manly men with their guns and I’m like walkin up in some tight ass jeans with Ugg boots and my hair and a scarf. And like, they’re just looking at me like, what the fuck is this kid doing here? (Laughter) Jordan: I get out there with my gun, just, bam bam bam! (Laughter again) Jordan: And they’re just like, (mouth open). Cause I shot better than like most of them. Like my dad’s always taken me shooting and stuff like that. He tried to get me into hunting but, my first time deer hunting I swear to God I just sat there, I was just like (crosses his legs and looks up in the air and sighs many times). Jordan: (All laugh). Really? I’m goin back, I’m gonna eat (he laughs). Sat out there for maybe an hour (we laugh). And then I was like, this is stupid. Julie: But you don’t think that your dad knows? Jordan: Umm, like, my, my step mom has like said things to my siblings, and my siblings have said things to me about her saying things to them about it, and like, my dad is just so oblivious to it. And it’s like so weird, like because, any time he wants to do something. Like, he likes to garden and I’m like ew dad, no. I don’t like dirt; it gets underneath my fingernails (we laugh). It dries out my hands, and it’s disgusting! Page 12 �(All laugh again). Jordan: And, uh, it’s just so bad because he’s seriously like, sooo straight. It’s ridiculous. Like my dad’s a whore. Well, like not right now but he was. (Laughter). He’s just like, pussy pussy pussy. And he’s always talking about it still, still to this day. And I’m just like, ew. (All laugh again loudly). Julie: Uhm, who would be the easiest person to tell and why? Jordan: Like, that I haven’t already told? Julie: Yeah. Julie: Or who was the easiest person, that you just knew from the minute that you were gonna tell them, it was gonna be okay? Jordan: The easiest person to tell was probably my best friend in Plainwell High School. Her name was Kelly. Have you met Kelly? (Looks over at his friend). Ginger, long hair. Red hair, she’s like the prettiest ginger you’ll ever see, because a pretty one doesn’t come around that often. Uhm, but yeah, she’s probably the easiest just because like, as I said, when I moved to Plainwell I just didn’t care anymore. Like I just wanted to be liked for me. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like.. Julie: And what happened, how did she react? Jordan: She loved it. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, have you ever met a girl who doesn’t want a girl best friend? Julie: (Everyone shakes head, agrees) I know, what? (Everyone laughs) Jordan: Like I.. Julie: So true. Jordan: Like, when I was in high school I’d get all these girls that would like, wanted to go shopping with me, blah blah blah, and stuff like that, and to me, like, that’s not what makes a friend. Like my best friend Kelly, like that, we were best friends through high school, we were still just talking today, she texted me but I ignored it today because I was out, but, uhm, like we still talk all the time that’s where I got the cat from. And like, we’ve been shopping together once. And it didn’t happen until two years after we were best friends. (All laugh). Page 13 �Jordan: Like, that just goes to show you all these girls come up and go, let’s go shopping blah blah blah, it’s just like, I’m lookin for real friends, not these girls that just want me to go shopping with them just because they think I have good taste. Like, you can just tell, everyone wants a best gay friend. Julie: Okay, uhm, are you involved in anything like, community outreach, or something like that? Or were you in high school? Jordan: Uhm, I did not do anything in high school. Extra curricular was not my thing. I hated high school with a passion that burned like the sun. I loved friends, I loved going in there every day like and, seriously throughout entire high school I didn’t care where I was, never wore sweatpants to school. Always in jeans, always dressed up, always did my hair, like a bad hair day happened.. twice in my entire 4 years. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Yeah, like I never just put it up in a clip or something. Like I always, I always did it. So it was just like always perfect there. And like, uhm, I just, I went for the friends. I hated high school and I didn’t want to help out my school at all. I didn’t do any of that. Depending on the job that I get when I’m up here, because of what I’m looking into, uhm (chuckles), it will determine. Because I thought, maybe getting into some charities, for uhm, people who have had siblings or something that are involved in meth, or helping a little bit in the gay community, but I believe that the gays are fine they’re just big drama queens. (All laugh). Julie: Uhm, how did you feel after you told people, uh, did you think it was a mistake? Do you have any doubts, or? Jordan: Uhm, the first person I ever told was my best friend Matt. Julie: And, how old were you? Jordan: I was, in 7th grade. Wait no, probably 8th grade. Because we were friends all throughout 6th, and like what not, and like we were just best friends so I mean, I knew I had to tell him. So basically I just started toying around with him, because I was always, always very “toyative” with people. Uhm, I don’t even know if that’s a real world. (We all laugh). Jordan: But it described and uhm. Like that’s what, I uh, kind of toyed around with the idea. He thought I was just joking at first, and then I told him and he took it really well so eventually he kinda just found out that for, legit I was and he took it just fine, so after that, I mean I still went through high school with an indicator like, trying to like, just keep my rep the way it was. Keep myself at the top, cause in a school like that you don’t want to fall down to the bottom. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 14 �Jordan: And uhm, (laughs), yeah. Julie: Uhm, have you dated anyone, like, for a long time, or recently? Jordan: It’s funny that you, brought that up because, 3 days ago was my anniversary for being single for 3 years. (Laughs) So way to bring that up! Julie: (All laugh), sorry! Jordan: No, the way I look at it is, the only thing that I’ve ever had is a one night stand, which, I mean, that’s just the kind of person I am. Julie: And, do you like that? Is that, would you want a relationship? Jordan: Eventually. But where I’m going in life, I don’t want anything gettin in the way of that. Like I see all my girlfriends that like, go out and they date these guys and then they feel like shit afterwards and then like, they fuck with them and it’s just so much boy drama… I don’t want any of that. Like, right now Julie: You just want to have fun. Jordan: I just want to have fun. Honestly there’s nothin wrong with me being the way that I am I don’t think. Like, I’ve never really felt the urge to, like I mean I went on a date today, but, like, just out to lunch, but. Julie: But you do date people? Jordan: I mean, it depends. Like, I’m waitin for the right one. I’m very picky. I mean I’ve gone out with people, but I’ve never dated them dated them. Like, this is my boyfriend. (Ha). Like I’ve never had that, I mean, basically when I get a little bit tipsy I get a little slutty, and one thing leads to another, and I have a night of fun and that’s it. And then I’m content for awhile. Krysten: How do you meet these people? Jordan: I’ll meet them at a party, online, whatever. Like, don’t worry, online I’m very careful. (He laughs). I’m not like, okay let’s meet right now! You can come over no one’s here. (All laugh). Jordan: No, it’s like, I’m very careful. I make them send me like multiple pictures, and if any of them look photo edited, or like, like, like, you just went to Google and googled someone hot, and like put them on there. Hell no, you’re not comin anywhere near me. Like I’m very careful about it, but cause like I might be a blonde, and I might be a little bit ditzy, and I mean, but I got a brain on me. (Laughs) Krysten: That’s good. Jordan: Not gonna lie about it (he laughs). Julie: Uhm, what is your definition of discrimination? Page 15 �Jordan: Like, what do you mean? Julie: Just, whatever you feel like, if… if anyone’s ever discriminated against you, and what you think? Jordan: I’ve never been offended by much. As I said, I feel like the gay community’s just a bunch of drama queens and they just need to chill out. Like, I went to hick town high school and I was just fine there. Like, if I can make it through that then.. they can make it through crap. I mean, the word “faggot” pisses me off, only if it’s said multiple times. Like, but that’s a fightin word. If someone called you a faggot wouldn’t you like, get ready to beat their ass? (We laugh). Jordan: Yeah, if someone came up and was just like, faggot, like, no one likes that word. But, that’s probably the only word like, gay discriminative that I don’t like. But if like someone just says it to me when I’m walking past them, then I’m just like, whatever. But, no one has ever really discriminated against me in a way that’s really upset me. Julie: Okay. DeVonte: Have you ever been mistreated, like after you came out? Jordan: Uhm, I mean, like when I went, in high school at Plainwell, I had this like, class, and it was just like, oh my God it was wretched. It was a math class, and of course I got stuck with, and it was the only class that I’ve ever had to take for an entire year at Plainwell. Uhm, because we run on trimesters so every twelve weeks we get new classes, new schedules, new teachers, new everything. Which I loved that about it, because it was more collegy. Like, less prisoney. (Laughs). Jordan: And uhm, these, this class of people was the one that I got stuck with for 3 trimesters because it was, uhm, a 1.5 credit class and uhm, which is just awesome that I got an extra credit for doing stuff that people would only get one credit from, but, like, there was me, and then there was this weird girl that sat above me, in front of me, or no it was this kid, and then this weird girl, and then there was just weird people. Ya know, like just those nerdy kids that no one talks to. (Laughs). Well they all sat around me and I kind of sat in the back of them, and there was like the punk ass kids that thought they were too cool, in a little L, and there was probably 4 of them. And then on the other side they would all move their desks to the other side, it was like, oh my god, it was like, the trailer park, like, nasty, like redneck hillbillies, oh my god, they were completely wretched (laughter). And they would sit there and make derogatory comments about everything and about everybody, and the stuff that came out of their mouth, you could tell they were just so uneducated, and like, like, half of them failed the class. It was just really, really dumb. Like, I mean, and, they’d sit there and some of them would bash on me, and like, I’d just smile, and be like “stupid idiots”. Because I got the highest grade in the class. I passed Algebra II with a fucking 98, beat that (laughs). Page 16 �Jordan: Uhm, like I’d always wear Uggs, and they used to like say, “girl boots”, and like, like, just like, say something, like, crap what would they say. Something about I’ll whoop your ass in your girl boots, or whatever, but then I just think to myself and say, why the fuck do you even care? Julie: Mhm-hm. Julie: And what did people around you say, like what did they think or did they do anything or did they just like? Jordan: I have like, like Tara, when she sees people look at me bad, like she goes full force, like bitch on them. Like we were sittin at Cedar Point, and there were these two little girls and they were (laughs) 9 or 10, (all laugh) and they like look back at me, and the one goes up to the other one and goes, “he’s gay”. Tara’s like, “YES, he is”. (Everyone laughs loudly). Jordan: And then they’d like, keep looking back, and then Tara would just be like “What bitch”? Her parents are right there and they kind of look back, and I’d like look at them like, “what, do something bitch”? Like, she fires me up about it. I don’t usually notice anymore, cause like I just live my life and focus on what I’m doing, and like, that’s just how I am but she’ll point it out to me and be like, “that bitch over there just gave you a dirty look” and then I’ll be like (covers his mouth) Oh my god (all laugh). And just stare her down, and make them feel so comfortable that they have to leave. You’re pathetic (laughs). I win. (we all laugh). DeVonte: Do you think you have like, influenced other people to come out? Jordan: No. Julie: Do you have any friends..? Jordan: Uhm, my friend Drake that I was telling you about that goes to GVSU, he’s probably my only gay friend. Uhm, the thing is, like, have you noticed that girls hang out with girls, and guys hang out with guys. Well, I’ve always been like a girl so, I’ve always hung out with the girls, so when it comes to gay friends, it’s like I don’t really have any because I don’t really hang out with boys. And like, the, extremely flamboyant like, gay people, like I just don’t like them very much because I feel like, I feel like they’re kind of annoying, (laughs) just a little bit. And I know I’m annoying to some people, because they can’t, they don’t like seeing that, but ya know, I feel like they’re always out for drama and like, always out to see who did this, who did that, and like, they’re attention seekers like no other, and it annoys me. So, I don’t have a lot of gay friends. Julie: Is your friend Drake, uhm, did he come out before you, after you? Jordan: Before I think? Julie: Okay, so you knew him. Jordan: But, I give him props for that because he was at that school his entire life and he did it. Page 17 �Julie: Wow. Jordan: Where, I moved schools, and then did it. Which, moving schools is scary, but, the people you grew up with, having to tell them that, like after, like hiding it for so long. And he’s not the kind of gay kid that you can tell is gay. Like, he’d have to tell you. Like, and those are the kind I like. I just like real people. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: You do what you do. DeVonte: So, when you came out, how was it? Were you relieved, or like? Jordan: It kind of just happened (laughs). Julie: It’s just kind of new still? Jordan: No, it’s just a part of who I am, I mean like, you don’t go up to someone and like, I would never go up to someone and say, “Hi I’m Jordan, I’m gay”. (All agree). Jordan: Just like you wouldn’t go up to someone and say “Hi I’m Rachel, I’m straight”. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, you just don’t do it. Like, it’s just a part of who I am. Like I mean, if you want to know, I’ll tell ya. Like, it didn’t really change a lot in my life, other than the fact that I didn’t feel like I had to hide it anymore. I was able to become more myself than I ever was. And like, my friend Holly, she knew me before and after. And like, she sees me after, and she’s like, “I’m so glad, cause it’s not like you weren’t fun before, but you’re like ten times more fun now just because you let go, you let loose”. Uhm, so I’ve always been kind of like a loose canyon, just letting it go, and doing what I want to do. I don’t care what people think. Uhm, except old people. I don’t like to be around old people. (Laughter) Jordan: Like, I feel like there always lookin at me. (Laughter again). There always sittin there and watchin me, and those are the kind of people that I mind being judged by (he laughs). It’s like oh god! So, I, will never work at nursing home, or like Julie: You would never do their hair? Jordan: No! I just don’t like old people. Like, and that’s another reason why I would never wanna work in a salon. Like, old people come get their hair permed, and stuff like that. And then like, the last when I was working reception at Rivé, I got Connie’s client Wilma come in there, and she was tryin to convert me to born again Christian, and I was like, lady I’ve been through all of that (laughs), and she was like “Well you just give me a call when you go to church” and I’m all like well I’m gonna be busy the next couple of weeks. (All laugh). And she’s like, “well the Lord is, you don’t make time for the Lord he’s Page 18 �gonna come get chu”. Or something like that, and then like, like, it was just crazy and I never called her. And then like, last time I went into Rivé I brought my friend Haley lunch cause we were really tight when we worked there; she does hair there and uhm I brought her lunch, and I like call her and I’m like, fuck it’s Thursday, is Wilma comin in? (All laugh). Cause I mean, I still remember like, the, weeklys, like the people who come in and I’m like, oh crap it’s Thursday. Aww, she comes in to get her hair done on Thursday and I just had to call and make sure she wasn’t comin in cause I didn’t wanna run into her. “You never called me, the Lord shouldn’t have to wait for you”. (All laugh again). And like, it was just too much, it’s just like, I live my life the way I wanna live it. That’s another example of my, religious beliefs (laughs), so. DeVonte: Do you think your parents would like, accept the fact that you are a homosexual? Jordan: Yeah, I just don’t want to deal with it right now. Like it’s just not something that I want to do right now. Right now I’m very content keeping them out of my life, like I don’t expect them to like, like if one day I get married, I don’t want them there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, that kind of thing. It’s just weird I don’t want them there. Julie: Why though? Jordan: I don’t know, like, I shouldn’t really care because, I mean I don’t care what people think, but I believe that gayness is passed down, uhm. I believe it’s genetic. I don’t know how it started spreading so fast lately, I think it’s because everyone’s just like not scared anymore, but I feel like it’s always been there. Uhm, because my grandpa, who is dead (laughs) now, he was gay. And uhm, he grew up back when that wasn’t okay, so, he married my grandma and everything like that and they were married their whole lives cause they were very strict Catholics. Uhm, but, she used to own a store in Grosse Point, where they sold baskets, flowers, and stuff like that. I don’t know, they just did it cause they liked it they were already like multi-millionaires and like, lost it all because they were stupid. (All laugh). Jordan: It’s cause they were selfish, they gave us like 15 bucks for Christmas every year, I was like fuck you bastards. You have a $20 million dollar house and you’re giving us 15 bucks for Christmas. (Laughter). Jordan: But uhm, Julie: And when did he come out? Did you know? Jordan: He didn’t. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, my grandma caught him with a man. At Grosse Point, made him pick everything up and that’s how they ended up in Harbor Springs. Page 19 �Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Which is where my grandma still is. Julie: And they didn’t stay, they stayed together? Jordan: Yep, Catholics… crazy. Julie: Did you know him? Jordan: Yeah, oh yeah. He just died last year. Julie: Okay. Jordan: But (laughs), sorry his funeral was hilarious. (All laugh and are confused). Jordan: I know that’s like sick sounding, but, oh my god it was just funny. Like I was sittin there just holding the coffin, and like, the priest or whatever comes up and there are like little boys in white robes and he like rubs his face and sprinkles the holy water at my grandfather’s coffin, and he turns over and rubs the other little boy’s face and sprinkles more on their with his little thing and I’m just like sitting there holding my dead grandpa’s coffin, and I’m like (starts cracking up). I had soars on the inside of my mouth that day from holding my laughter in. (All laugh). Cause like, and they would change like, “bless the father, bless the mother” all together and I was like, what the hell? Then they’d be talking some jibberish and it was like, scary, it was like what the hell is going on? I’m like, I had my nails painted and everything for that one, so I’m goin up to take communion and I like took the bread, and I’m like this bread is gonna be like dry as fuck I’m gonna wait until I get to the wine to eat it. And then he like stops me and is like “No! You eat it here!” And he looked right at my nails and he was like, like, I should’ve just been like, yep that’s right! (laughs). It was just like, that thing. But my Uncle, uhm, which is my dad’s brother. He lives over in Detroit, he’s also gay. So far it’s hit every generation for the last 3, so I told my brother, you’re gettin gay kids (laughs). Ha Ha! Julie: Are you close with your Uncle? Jordan: No, no he’s, he kind of lives in his own little world. Which is what I want someday. Like, I mean they get together for thanksgiving and Christmas, and his partner comes with him. He’s got a partner, and his partner’s kind of a bitch, but he’s really funny. But uhm, like that’s just what they do. They show up for important events. And that’s what I’ll plan on doing some day. But, as far as having my family live next door and see them all the time, and have them come play with the grandkids, like that kind of stuff, like that’s not happening. That is not happening; I’m livin my own life and I don’t want you guys all over in it (laughs). Julie: Do you want to get married? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: So you see yourself getting married and having kids? Page 20 �Jordan: Yeah, I have my fantasy planned out like every teenage girl does. Julie: Would you mind sharing? (All laugh). Jordan: Uhm, I, I mean, when, when I am where I fully wanna be, uhm. Actually I had a dream the other day, and it was really scary because I ended up getting killed in it. But it was like everything I’ve ever wanted and then my husband tried to kill me and then he eventually did but. And then for some reason I, okay no I can’t get into the details of everything (All laugh again). Jordan: But uhm, not sexually (laughter), but it goes on forever there’s so many details. But uhm… uhm.. what I want someday is, like.. just like the perfect family for me. Like, I want two kids, boys cause I hate little girls. Like I mean if I could just skip like, if they could start out as a baby, and then like, skip like 4-14 with a girl, I’d take a daughter but like you can’t skip those ages and I absolutely hate them through those ages, like, I mean I didn’t even like Charlie (looks to his friend). Like I really didn’t like Charlie and the only reason I could tolerate Morgan was cause she was so dumb (everyone laughs). But uhm, yeah, so I want two sons that’s it. Uhm, I already have them named. But uhm, and then I wanna wake up in the morning, and just, get up, get my kids ready, take them to school, go do some celebrities hair, like go work out and run some errands, go pick up my kids, and then just spend the rest of the day with them. Like, cook dinner, wait for the hubby to get home, like that kind of thing. Julie: But you want like, a kind of more traditional, it sounds like you want more of a traditional, like go cook dinner for your husband, take care of the kids.. Jordan: Yeah, I mean, that’s how I feel it should be. Julie: Okay, is that how your family was or? Jordan: In a way yeah. I mean my mom and step mom have always cooked for my dad and stuff like that, but I mean I want to be able, like my mom was very neglecting. Like I don’t think she liked to be around very much, especially when I was home schooled she was never really around. Which was weird because she was supposed to be home schooling me (laughs). Uhm, like she was never around and like, I mean I feel like that’s, that’s why I was so, like fucked up for awhile. And like seriously, I, I had a drug addiction when I was like 16 that I got myself out of. Like I was snortin adderal up the nose, every day, all day, 3 times a day, never slept, never ate, and then in between adderals I was taking vicadin up the nose. I was just, totally crazy and people would see it, and like, eventually someone told me, but I don’t want my kids to ever have to do that and like, I’ve hidden my whole life from my parents. Like what they see is just, my bedroom and like, and what I go out in, which sometimes I would have to change in the car because I was not going to dress like that when I went out, and like that kind of thing so, like I mean I know, like I started wearing short shorts around my dad, which is kind of weird but I keep them at a decent length. Like up here (points to the middle of his thigh) instead of like right there (moves his hand slightly up). I have changed in my car, like after I left my house so they didn’t ask or anything, and like, say something about what I was wearing. That kind of thing. Uhm, but I have had to hide my life Page 21 �from them and I don’t want to do that with my kids. Like I want them to tell me everything if they’re going to go drop acid with their friends I want them to tell me. Like, (laughs), like I mean… and I just want that, that, nice bond. Like that’s more of my traditional views on that. DeVonte: Uhm, would you ever consider getting an operation done? Jordan: No. Julie: Why? Jordan: When I was in my mom’s stomach she got an ultrasound done. Sorry, I’m gonna open a window I’m hot. (Opens window and talks about it locking). Jordan: But uhm, I would never get that done cause I feel like I was made this way. When I was in my mom’s stomach she got an ultrasound done and I was supposed to be a girl and I came out a boy, like, Julie: Oh really? Jordan: Yeah.. that goes to tell you something. And, I feel like I mean if you’re gonna go get an operation that’s your business, but I feel like you were put on the earth the way you are for a reason, to fit someone’s puzzle. Ya know? Like I mean I feel like everyone’s a puzzle piece just waiting to fill up someone’s puzzle. Like ya know? And that’s what I’m waiting for that’s why I don’t really date. (Laughs). Cause I haven’t found the right one. Julie: Mhm-hm. DeVonte: Do you think it was more of a friendly environment in Plainwell than it was in Decatur? Jordan: Uhm…. Yes and no. I felt like in high school there were more assholes at Plainwell, but uhm, I just did my own thing. So I didn’t pay attention to them. Like, I mean I just, like I got bothered less, just because I didn’t pay attention to them, but. I mean after my brother’s class, my brother was in high school, he was a senior when I was a freshman and we were in the same school and after he graduated, like all those like assholes left, and then I was fine. So, I mean… they were, they were probably equal, like I never really got bothered that much. My dad’s a cop, everyone knew it. You don’t fuck with the cop’s kid. (Everyone laughs). DeVonte: Do you currently have a job right now? Jordan: Uhm, I don’t. I’m really workin on it. What I’m getting into is, webcaming. Uhm, I know that sounds like, bad, but like, for the money I’m gonna be making from it, it’s not that bad and uhm, basically what’s gonna happen is I’ll sit there and talk to people, and if they want to take me into private they’ll have to pay $8 a minute. Like 8 something a minute, and basically they can see what they want, but. And then they can call me anytime, uhm, they just call an 800 number and uhm, it’ll be directed towards my phone number so it’s kept completely private. Page 22 �Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And it’s 3-4 dollars a minute for every minute that they talk to me on the phone. So, uhm. Julie: Wow. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: Where did you think of this idea? Jordan: Dr. Phil (everyone laughs). Julie: And are you like, gonna start it up soon or have you been thinking about it for awhile? Jordan: Well, I just sent in my papers yesterday. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, for them to prove that I’m 18. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: So I can start doing that. Checks come in the mail every Tuesday. And, like, seriously you work whenever you want, you just go into your bedroom, turn on the webcam, and at the end of it you walk away with $300 and some bucks. I, I mean, there’s people that sit on that for 3 hours, and they make just under a grand. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Could you imagine working for 3 hours and making that much money? Julie: That’s crazy. Jordan: That’s why I’m gettin into it. I mean, I knew I was gonna end up doin something dirty. I’ve checked out stripping, but, I mean it’s just I’d rather have the privacy of my own home. And, choose who gets to come into my sanctuary (he laughs). (We all laugh). Jordan: Uhm, even though stripping is something that like sounds really fun, the thing about me is that, like, I was a die hard partier. Like I was 16, just got my car, ya know, just escaped my mom. I was die hard partier. Partying every night. Like, just, that was when I had my problem (laughs). Uhm, so like I’ve always been a partier, I’ve always been a little bit crazy. Uhm, I have one-night stands so, it’s like, I’m clearly not that conservative about those kind of things. Like, I feel like that does come a little bit with the gayness, but at the same time, not everybody’s like that. So I don’t know, I think it’s just my personality, I mean, I, I don’t think of myself any less for it. Jordan: (He laughs). You all shook your head at the same time, that was really funny. Jordan: Haha yeah that was weird. Page 23 �Krysten: How did you move up to Grand Rapids? Jordan: Uhm, I moved up here for school. Uhm, Aveda Institute is right downtown it’s where I’m going. Krysten: Oh, I’ve been there it’s nice. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: It’s so nice. Jordan: Yeah when I saw it, I fell in love with it. Uhm, come get your hair done by me. (He laughs). Jordan: Cause then, when I become famous you can be like, “he did my hair”. (We all laugh). Krysten: It’s pricey. Jordan: Yeah, it will be pricey someday; it won’t be when I’m in school. Krysten: Well, for me to go in and get it done it’s still pretty pricey. Jordan: Oh, yeah, (laughs). I mean, I’ve got a bunch of fake hair glued to my head so, yeah (laughs). My salon bill’s not very nice either. (We all laugh). DeVonte: Are there any books or movies that you feel are most connected with? Jordan: Uhm, (looks confused), no Brokeback Mountain! Just kidding. (We all laugh). Jordan: As far as movies go… I’d have to say my favorite is Easy A. (The girls agree). Julie and Krysten: That is a good movie. Jordan: She is so like.. like I feel like that sums up a little bit of who I am. Like, minus the fact that of like, like, how conservative she actually was. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I’m the kind of person who could do that. Like, I mean, I just don’t have that emotion. Like that, that, guilt factor. Ya know? I just loved her in that movie, like I felt like, that was just, wow! (Laughs). As far as books go, I don’t read. Ever (laughs again). No, scratch that. I have read a series it’s called Pen Dragon but it didn’t really relate to me at all. It was just really cool ha. Like it put Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings to shame (we all laugh again). Page 24 �DeVonte: Uhm, when you go to the restroom do you go to the male or female? Jordan: I do go to the girls, and that is strictly for comfort reasons. I am ten times more comfortable peeing in a woman’s bathroom than a men’s. Uhm, depending on my level of intoxication, is whether or not I stand up or sit down. (Everyone laughs). And, what I feel like, it’s basically what I feel like. If I go in there, and it’s a bunch of girls in there I’ll sit down so they don’t question because… ya know if you see the feet pointing the other way you’re gonna be like, what the hell? Julie: Yeah. Jordan: But uhm, yeah, so that’s basically that. Just out of comfort. Julie: Do you ever go into the men’s, or did you ever? Jordan: When I’m with my dad I’ll go into the men’s. DeVonte: And does it feel awkward going into the men’s? Jordan: Oh yeah. I see urinals and I’m like what the hell? Julie: Do people look at you differently or? Jordan: No, but when I’m with my dad I usually tone it down. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Yeah (laughs). Julie: By the way you dress, and so on. Jordan: Yep. Julie: Okay. Julie: So, what do you hope, or what do you feel like politics, and gay marriage and everything that’s going on right now. Do you ever watch the news? Do you think it interests you? Jordan: I feel like the news to me is one of the biggest wastes of time. Because me being the single person that I am, there’s nothing I can do. Like I’ve watched my whole entire life my dad, and my step mom, and everybody watch the news, and get pissed off as hell. Like, just pissed, and like, stressed out over it, but you know what? At the end of the day you can’t do anything, so why worry yourself with it. So like, I don’t watch the news. I don’t pay attention to politics. As far as gay marriage goes, uhm, I feel like, there needs to be something. I mean, maybe if you think that marriage is between a man and a woman, it’s that. Maybe you should come up with something new for the gays, I don’t know. I don’t care. It’s just when it comes down to it I want something like.. like that, says, listen this is my man, and if he leaves me I’m gettin half his shit. (All laugh and agree). Page 25 �Jordan: If you cheat on me I’m gettin it all. (Laughter again). Jordan: I also have a very unique cheating possibility if you want to hear that. Julie: Yeah, definitely. Krysten: Sure. Jordan: Okay. Uhm, when it comes to that, I feel like, like after awhile human beings are very sexual beings, considering that humans and dolphins are the only like, things that have sex for pleasure. Krysten: I’ve heard that. Jordan: Yeah, so I feel like humans are really sexual beings, and I feel like your first five years of marriage should be completely special and you should be completely loyal to your partner, uhm, but after that, if you feel the need to cheat, or like go sleep with someone else, like you just can’t get it out of your head and it’s all you think about, stuff like that. Uhm, I feel like, you should be able to do it. But, rule 1, you’re not gonna spend the night over there. You’re not gonna sleep in their bed with them. It’s gonna be sex strictly and you’re gonna come home and look me in the eyes and you’re gonna tell me exactly what happened and if you can’t do that, then it’s obviously not that important to you. Like you know.. like that’s just how I feel about it cause like I’d rather have someone, like, tell me it’s gonna happen and like, I need to do this, I need to do this to get over it, and if you can look me in the eye and do it, then obviously it was at that point, but I don’t feel, I feel like the divorce rate is so high because of that. Because people can’t realize how much of a sexual being humans are and the needs that they have. The needs, the desires, like, civilizations have fallen from peoples desires and wants. Like, I mean, just give them a little space, give them a little wiggle room (laughs). Julie: Uhm, but, so, do you, you don’t really care if there was gay marriage legalized nationwide? Jordan: Everywhere where I wanna live it’s legal (laughs). Julie: Yeah. Jordan: New York, L.A. Jordan: Like, I mean I’m good with that. If they wanna call it something else, go for it and make the little Christian people happy, but, Jordan: As you’re wearing a what would Jesus do bracelet (he laughs). (We all laugh). Jordan: Yeah, it’s no big deal I’m just messin with you. (Laughter again). Page 26 �Jordan: I’m sorry, but uhm, I mean I think that’s the biggest thing, with the gays right now. Like I mean, marriage. Like, I don’t think it’s a big deal. Like I mean, and as I said, gays are drama queens. Like, just get over it. I mean, I do think they need to fight for the right to be bound together, but, I mean call it somethin else, make it somethin else, cause, initially marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. And I do, believe that. But I mean, will I get married someday? Hell yeah. But. Julie: What advice do you have to anyone, for someone, that is coming out? If you have any? Jordan: Just do it. Do it on your own terms, do what feels right. Suck it up and just do it. Like, cause honestly it’s who you are and if you can’t live as who you are you’re not livin. Julie: Yup. Julie: Uhm, do you have any regrets about coming out, or telling people, or what their reactions or anything like that or no? Jordan: No, I’ve never had any regrets. I mean, I am who I am. And like I’ve gotten to that point where uhm, just the way I grew up, with the childhood, moving around, like all that stuff that I’ve grown into. That’s a lot. That’s a lot than what most like people, go through, as like, growing up. Uhm, like, just the way that my life has been set up, I’ve lived a lot more than most people would. So I’ve had more experience, I have that knowledge so I know that I just don’t live with regrets. Like I’m completely happy, living like this. I don’t know, I think I got kind of sidetracked in this. Julie: (Laughs). No that’s good. Jordan: Okay. Julie: Do you have any other comments that you want to say? Jordan: What’s it like to be straight? No (everyone laughs). Julie: I know now you’re going to ask us questions. (Laughter continues). Jordan: No, I’m just kidding I know what it’s like to be that. Uhm…. Julie: Have you ever been with a girl? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: And, did enjoy it or? Jordan: I mean.. Rachel: (Jordan's friend) Do you remember how you told me? Jordan: About what? Page 27 �Rachel: Like when you were with a female rather than a male, ya know like the feeling or whatever. Like that feeling you get. Jordan: Yeah, I mean it still feels good, it’s a vagina. Rachel: No, I mean remember you told me, like you said like, you know how like, when you’re with someone, and you get like, not like the feeling of like, sex, or whatever, but like that connection or whatever? How you said that you didn’t get with a girl. Jordan: No, yeah you just don’t get it. Like when I see a hot guy I’m like holy shit. Like you know when you go out with someone for the first time and you’re like really into him, and like, you get those butterflies and you feel crazy, stuff like that. You don’t get that. You don’t get that sexual build-up, the sexual tension, just being like, just, ah. Basically, you don’t get that. And that just goes to show that it’s not a choice because like I mean I’ve tried. Like, who hasn’t tried? Honestly? And, you know what, that’s probably the one thing that I regret… is hiding myself for so long. Julie: And trying to feel, were you trying to like the person that you were with or something? Jordan: Yeah, I mean like I liked them, and then like there were times when I like, I was like, I want to date this person. But the more I thought about it, is like, I mean, after about a month I’m gonna lose interest in them and not want to go any farther with this person and it’s not fair to them, so yeah. That’s another reason why I haven’t dated because after awhile I’ll just lose interest and not even want too. END OF INTERVIEW Page 28 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b0f462f9fa755005c9fdebd71401a7fd.mp3 3addb888916f0006ef1c95fe22975e35 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Serla_Jordan Title A name given to the resource Jordan Serla audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Serla, Jordan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Doescher, Julie Jones, DeVonte Velderman, Krysten Description An account of the resource Jordan Serla discusses growing up gay in a small town. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Homophobia Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a439aced87ed7185d2660dff223507f2.pdf 9675f36ea32682280c9efbd63811f95e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Jose Jimenez Interviewers: Timothy Robertson, Ashlie Hood and Angelica Perez Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/24/2012 Biography and Description Jose Jimenez was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico and lived in Chicago. He discusses his experiences as the leader of the Young Lords and an activist for Latin Americans. Transcript JIMENEZ: So the name of the class is what? HOOD: US diversity, diversity in the US JIMENEZ: Oh diversity, ok ROBERTSON: So we will essentially be conducting an oral history which I’m sure you have way more with experience than we do JIMENEZ: No I don’t have any experience this is my first time that I’m doing the history, the oral history ROBERTSON: Oh nice, right on JIMENEZ: Yeah I don’t have any experience ROBERTSON: Then it will be a new experience for the both of us; essentially we will be running through basic history about you JIMENEZ: Ok ROBERTSON: Integrating a few points of what kind of built you personally and then like your opinion of home JIMENEZ: Ok where do you want to start, what’s your name again? HOOD: Ashlie JIMENEZ: Ashlie? Ok I’m José, ok ROBERTSON: To start actually if we can get some basic information about you Page 1 �JIMENEZ: You do have a lot of questions? Or is that ROBERTSON: Well these are… JIMENEZ: Background stuff ROBERTSON: Yeah, they JIMENEZ: Ok ROBERTSON: Just some basic questions JIMENEZ: (laughing) ROBERTSON: We kind of developed our own from this so JIMENEZ: Ok so you want some basic personal questions first or ROBERTSON: Yup. Yeah the first, if you could introduce yourself JIMENEZ: Ok, I’m José Jimenez, the nickname I’ve had for most of my life is cha cha, C-H-A C-H-A (spelling out cha cha) and I got that, it was more like a people in the neighborhoods usually get nicknames in a negative way so they were kind of little racial in nature because this guy used to call another black person sambo and he called me a cha cha cha, and so as more, I was just a little kid, but as more Latinos came into the neighborhood. I, I kind of liked the name cha cha so I just kept it, some people get called frog face or whatever, (Ha-ha) I just kind of liked the name cha cha ROBERTSON: If you could tell us date of birth and location JIMENEZ: Ok, I was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico. My family is from the country but of course I was born in the city, in the town because my older sister had died and my mother was worried because there was no medical treatment in the country so she moved to the town of Caguas but us when I went back to Puerto Rico when I was fifteen years old, all I knew was the country. I came straight from Chicago back to the country there. It was actually a good experience because I spent a lot of time with my grandfather, Egragrorio Jimenez, and I mean I had to use the two bulls to turn ground and… ROBERTSON: Oh wow JIMENEZ: And coming from Chicago there was real whole awakening for me. The whole country, the whole culture, the music of the people that they had there so I was able to catch a lot to really appreciate the country life of Puerto Rico there ROBERTSON: Kind of to bounce off that, what kind of ancestry did you have? JIMENEZ: I had, well my great grandfather and my great grandfather, they’re all Puerto Rican so. On my mother’s side there’s a lady that comes directly from Spain but basically we’ve been Puerto Ricans for generations. We came when I was two years old, my father did not own his own property, he did not own his own farm so he worked on other peoples farms. At the time they called them agregaros, so Page 2 �aggregated or connected because they were able to get some space for their house in somebody else’s land and that’s how you make a living, you work for the farmer and so there was a large farmer named Jimenez which is my last name and he worked for him, a lot of people worked for him at that time. Later on my grandfather was able to purchase a lot a large a lot where his sons and daughters were able to work because there were about 13 or 14 of them, brothers and sisters so siblings. So they were able each of them to have their own section, and so things improved later, after this large land owner Jimenez left the area. Ah, well that was just the way of life. People were not angry with him, it wasn’t like slavery or anything like that it’s just that he had money and he was able to provide for other people at that time, it was his business. from my father, because he worked at the farm it was easy for him to, when the united states was having trouble with Mexican workers because of their documentation and their papers and that Puerto Ricans were citizens of the united states so the united states, the US companies went to Puerto Rico to bring Puerto Ricans here to work in the fields, so my father came and he worked by concord Massachusetts when there was still farm land at that time and he did that since 1945-46 and then he moved up and they let him drive a tractor because he spoke a little English and so he went back and brought other people to, to near Boston to the Andy voy farms. Andy voy farms were connected, they were the farms providing vegetables to Campbell’s Soup Company because I tried to do some research on them and that’s what I found out. But so he was bringing in people so, but the conditions were not that well because they would come and they would have to work from early in the morning to late at night and they had nothing else to do to socialize, I mean a lot of them started drinking alcohol became their way to relax on the weekends because on the weekdays they had no time to relax and they and they didn’t know anybody. ROBERTSON: It certainly becomes a social conflict JIMENEZ: Yeah yeah, so he did that for a few years and then he brought my mother and myself to concord and then my sister Juana was born there and from me moved, after he brought us here. I guess even though we had our own little cottage life, I guess he didn’t like that environment for us, for the family environment. It was mostly just men working there. Although my mother, she started making money ironing clothes, and she was making more money that he was. Because she was ironing clothes for the men and the place ROBERTSON: Mmhmmmm JIMENEZ: But there were more family in Chicago so his sisters and brothers were I Chicago so he decided to move to Chicago in 1950 and that’s when we lived in a, what they called a new barrio, a neighborhood a new community because it was developing in Chicago at that time. So everybody kind of knew each other, I would say there was maybe ten thousand Puerto Ricans at that time in the city and they were kind of spread out like Clark, around Chicago avenue, Clark was a neighborhood developing, it was a Puerto Rican neighborhood, it actually was it actually was a skit row area because there was a lot of hotels that they were converting into apartments and rooms and stuff like that it was a little rent. They were ready to tear down the buildings and so there was low rent and that was where Puerto Ricans can go. I mean most of them were migrant workers anyways so they were just coming Page 3 �there to work for a few years and to go back, the same as my father was doing in concord Massachusetts ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: But this time it was in a city and factories and they were trying to make enough money to go back but the plane fair was very expensive and then it wasn’t just the plane fair but when you went back to Puerto Rico, you had to put a fassad, like you had money. So you go there and everybody’s expecting you to buy drinks and everybody’s expecting you to wear the best clothing and everybody’s expecting you to act like your upper class because you have money and you’re an Americano, you’ve been to the united states and so those things were hampered with the travel back and forth because people had to put their fassad to pretend that they were something that they weren’t. ROBERTSON: That’s an interesting condition though, I mean to me essentially what you’re saying is that the condition I Puerto Rico was just a lack of employment and that’s what drove you to the states JINENEZ: Exactly that was very you k know when there is employment here at 90% you’re looking at even at right now 30% in Puerto Rico so it’s definitely by triple the amount that it is here so those were bad times there in the early 50’s, late 40’s and people were looking, there was a big migration at that time of Puerto Ricans coming not only to Chicago but to the Midwest and the steel mills and to the hotels they had a, my uncles had a favorite quote that they used to talk, if you asked them what kind of work they were in they would say that they were gravando discos making records. What they meant by that they were spinning records, what they meant by that they were washing dishes (Tim and Ashlie begin to laugh) because there were so many of them that were living in the well they were working in the hotels in Chicago we lived like six blocks away from the downtown so I mean that was and that kind of created a bad problem later because it was prime real estate so the few Puerto Ricans that were able to buy some houses cheap resold them cheap then there was a whole land grabbed in that area of downtown which is where we came in later, we were, cause we kept moving, we didn’t know, I mean we were not connected to the city at all, we were not connected to the politicians or anything like that or we didn’t pay attention, our parents didn’t pay attention to the news or anything like that because they didn’t speak English ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: And we were young we didn’t care about it and we were like disconnected from the city. Like Mexicans are today, a lot of Mexican people immigrants, are today they are kind of in their own world they’re disconnected and that went like that for a while through generation until we started to go to school and making our own little connections and that but, so we kept moving from one place, we lived there for a few years then we got pushed out of there and moved to another place and so you read in some of the books today that Latinos or Puerto Ricans moved a lot but what they didn’t say was that it would be renewed and being pushed out from on, I mean because we didn’t know that they were trying to re develop the whole lake front ROBERTSON: Okay Page 4 �JIMENEZ: So we just kept moving north along the lake front and so we kept on being pushed out ROBERTSON: So that that berry field then pushed you farther away from downtown JIMENEZ: Right and then they were trying to develop the downtown and the lake front so we were always near downtown I mean because of our jobs because we were with the dishwashers, the women with the hotel, with the maids, with the rich people, they cleaned people’s houses and companies were recruiting women from Puerto Rico to do that and they I can’t think of the name right now of one of the companies but they actually they companies and it was cheap labor they were looking for that and you’re dealing with citizens, you’re not dealing with someone that is not a citizen. Puerto Ricans were born citizens. In 1966 we were getting were for our first world war, and so we were made citizens of the united states, there was no vote or anything like that, they just said you we’re giving you this right to be a citizen and the next day you got to go to war ROBERTSON: Of course JIMENEZ: But it’s true, why would you become a citizen in 1917, what was going on was the war you k now ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: So anyway we were citizens and it gave us some benefits it’s not, so yeah there were some benefits that came with that those benefits made us more independent but you’re talking about food stamp benefits, that we didn’t have before so those benefits were good. We have a lot of companies in Puerto Rico but the owners are over here I mean if you own a business and you’re over here, you’re the one that’s making the main money I mean you’re giving jobs to some people, but you’re the one that’s making the profit so it was like that but, I’m saying that because the whole fight that happened with the young lords later was about self-determination of like Puerto Rico. We believed that Puerto Rico should determine their own destiny and it nothing against the United States believes the same thing I mean they fought their war against England so I mean we believed the same thing. We don’t disrespect the American flag we can’t because we want to respect our flag; we want to fly our own. Right now you have to fly both flags, there was a time in the 30’s when Puerto Ricans were made, they were forced to speak only English in school, that’s crazy. Somebody’s not going to go to Germany and tell everybody ok, you got to speak English now (laughing). ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: What I am saying, no more German allowed that’s what they did to Puerto Rico not everybody but the people in charge. We definitely don’t blame the American people, just the people in charge and I grew up over here so but anyways I got off on in a tangent here ROBERTSON: It’s all right JIMENEZ: So we came to Puerto Rico to la Clark, was the neighborhood we called it and then there was another community called la Madison which was right around down town on the other side, on the western part of it but they actually were together except there was an express way that divides or the Page 5 �Kennedy, that divides up the two neighborhoods so basically we lived downtown and we lived near the lake front, basically we lived in that community. But there was two barrios, there was two neighborhoods that were being built at that time, one was la Clark and one was la Madison. Now people from both la Clark and la Madison moved into Lincoln Park or Wicker Park. And that is where my generation grew up, in either wicker park or Lincoln park and so that’s all knew of Puerto Rico again I can’t remember I was only two years old and most of us came when we were young so we didn’t know anything about Puerto Rico but in our neighborhood here in Chicago and so to us that was our Puerto Rico and all of sudden after were there for like 15, 20 years, here comes the bull dozers again and here comes the urban renewal program and they wanted to evict us again, except this time they’re not evicting our parents, they’re evicting us and we grew up here ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: And so were saying we can’t go for this anymore, we have to do something and that’s kind of how the young lords started. We were just hanging out on the corner I mean we didn’t care about anything, we wanted to listen to music, smoke a little weed, drink a little wine, and have a good time and some of us were soldiers, we went to the service and once in a while we got a little mischief. We would cut the hippies hair (Tim and Ashlie laughing) or jump on the sailors. Some of us probably, I remember going to the dances and there was about eight of us with different stoning cars that we got to just go to the party, if wanted a new car, we couldn’t afford it so we just took it. So we weren’t even taken it to, some people would take it to get the hop cats and sell them or whatever. We would just take it to go to the parties. We weren’t the only ones getting into trouble. I mean we had our fights; we won some we lost some. So I mean that’s all we were about. We weren’t political, our parents were sure not political, they came from the farms from the field of Puerto Rico where there were farm workers. They didn’t have any education, we didn’t have any education, most of us dropped out at eighth grade or ninth grade of high school so we definitely didn’t have no education, our parents had no education. My father was on welfare and my mother worked in a transformer place where she got minimum wage almost and then my father had to say that he didn’t live with us so got welfare, first he got unemployment I guess then he got welfare but he did work for about 13 or 14 years for Oscar Meyer it was a meat factory, he worked in a meat packing factory but then they fired him, they moved the company and so he lost his job and he didn’t want to work again he started hanging out at the bar, became a pool shark and that’s how he made his money I guess but then he sold the numbers, that was another way of making money and the neighborhood was to, now its legal, the lottery is legal but at that time there was no lottery ROBERTSON: Okay JIMENEZ: But in Puerto Rico they did have a lottery that was legal and so they just thought it was okay to sell the numbers but it was not legal because there was no taxes being paid ROBERTSON: Right, right JIMENEZ: But today they didn’t distinguish it too much so I wouldn’t say that my father was a gangster, he did belong to a little club like the old hatchets, it was a name that they chose, but they would get into Page 6 �bar fights, bar brawls but it wasn’t really as gang if you compared to gang stuff its nothing like that. And I think he went to jail twice because I went with my mom to bond him out for fights and he was definitely afraid of jail, he didn’t want to go. Not like me I went a lot of times but he, so he was just more of a family person. In fact Jackie glease, the honeymooners was his favorite show ROBERTSON: Yeah, so you would say that one of the biggest draws for Chicago was your own people there JIMENEZ: The draw, you mean for myself? ROBERTSON: Right, well with you and your family even I mean you were saying that there were more job opportunities JIMENEZ: Right and our families were there we were closer to our family versus being in some farm, in a field farm in the fields and stuff like that but yeah so one of the draws with living in Lincoln park was that there was families growing up together and it became a tight knit neighborhood, just like any other neighborhood ROBERTSON: So would you say it helped maintain a sense of your culture? JIMENEZ: Right and maintain the culture, that’s what I’m saying because it maintained our culture and it made, that was my Puerto Rico, that’s what I knew of Puerto Rico. I loved Puerto Rico today but I never, I didn’t live in it that much what I’m saying. My sisters were all born here and they lived there for several years they loved it there. And I loved it there too but I can’t find any work but their husbands were raised there so they’re kind of used to their economy, their culture and I’m not. I was raised here so I’m used to here more. Even though I love Puerto Rico and defend it I had to me my Puerto Rico was Lincoln Park and that neighborhood and that community and then because we did the bad thing and we did the good things. Think of the new immigrants moving there, like pilgrims ROBERTSON: Mmhmmm JIMENEZ: Because they came in there and actually acted like pilgrims cause they came with a religious fervor from Puerto Rico and when they saw that a lot of the older people, the man would get into gangs and start selling drugs they used religion, they used Catholicism to preach when they saw that the youth could not afford to go a catholic school, my mother had her own catechism in her own house, she had an altar in the house but basically, she would have our living room was about 30 chairs, and the kids would come in there and she would, they would have to memorize the book because she wasn’t a good teacher, she never went to school and she only went to, I don’t think she even went to the 1st grade because she was raised in an orphanage but her mother got ill land so she was raised in an orphanage near san Juan until she was like 15 or 16 then she got connected with my father and they got married but she had catechism classes and they would graduate and she worked it out with the local priest and they would go and do it there. She would have catechism classed and they would have to recite word from word yes ma’am god raised on the third day no mam, yes mama. That’s the way they had to answer that was the way she trained them and she was excited when the priest would come and ask them questions because they would graduating at that time and the families were excited, they would Page 7 �go them like a little suit and fine dresses and that and they would go and receive their first communion and I saw that, I was going to catholic school at that time and it was like one of those where your mother is the minister and you don’t want to be connected to the class, you’re always on the sideline. But I appreciated what my mom was doing and I learned her organizing skills and how she had to talk to the parents and stuff like that. And she did that for, she had a few classes that graduated (Jose’s phone starts ringing) I should have turned this off, sorry ROBERTSON: It’s alright; do you need to take that? JIMENEZ: No, (Jose is trying to turn his phone off) and Tim is trying to help him JIMENEZ: Where were we? ROBERTSON: You were just describing your appreciation with what your mom was doing JIMENEZ: Well I need to also say, because I said we had a little altar, she my mother also, in Puerto Rico there is different customs, so even though 99% are catholic, there’s still old customs from the Indians and from the Africans, so you have their religions also a part of the thing. And my mother had, today she is what you call a charismatic Catholic so that means that they pray to the saints and she’s very into, well the Africans have the santaria, which is what we say is more like voodoo but it’s just a religion from Africa but it’s in the music you here songs like changu, and all that so my mother wasn’t into that, she was more into Indian, she said I’m an Indian. But even though she was catholic she doesn’t say it because she would get criticized even with the community. But I know that she believe, she says I believe in the tongues and the holy spirit, which is catholic but I know for her is was little bit more. But I don’t think she understand the whole religion part of it, she’s just like, you go to any Puerto Rican neighborhood and they have what they call botanicas, so you can go in there and buy candles and different things and that a regular store and they make good money because there’s a lot of people that buy that stuff. So m my mother was just kind of picking from that, she’s like one of those people that would pick a candle. Right, so she did believe and that so I wanted to say it, because it is part of our culture I mean it’s not just a religion, its apart of our culture, it’s a part of the fact that Puerto Ricans are Indian, African and European Spanish, so I have my light features because from the European Spanish. But even within our own family for 500 years we’re mix. So there’s also a saying in Puerto Rico that says y tu abuela donde esta? And your grandmother where is she? Meaning that all our grand mothers were from Africa. I mean that’s what they’re trying to day by this saying. Even though they weren’t all, what they mean is that we’re all mix; we cannot be prejudice against anybody, because we’re, we’re all, we’re all mixed people. So we’re mixed for 500 years, so talking about diversity… ROBERTSON: You were ahead of the game? JIMENEZ: We were ahead of the game a little bit, I think. But the problem also—it says that in the United States we don’t get our history. And, and so we’re, we’re not being taught that, although that’s common knowledge among Puerto Ricans that, that went to school in Puerto Rico. So, the Puerto Ricans that grew up here don’t [pause] don’t have that knowledge. We were, what the Young Lords were doing [pause] was to try to teach people about their history and, that’s one of the things that we, we promoted that we still promote. Page 8 �ROBERTSON: Say, I’m kind of curious moving onto that point… what was it like actually organizing and assembling the Young Lords? JIMENEZ: Well, that’s [pause] it wasn’t easy. I mean it’s still not easy today, I mean, ROBERTSON: Certainly. JIMENEZ: You kind of have to keep one step ahead of yourself, even today. [Pause] I mean, part of the reason I’m in Michigan has to, has to do with some of that, too. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But [pause] I got in, in, I went to jail, I got from the gang we went, we, there were different stages in the gang. We were first starting out; we’re just kind of just drinking and having a good time… ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then we started organizing ourselves and then we started trying to get a name for ourselves so we go to [pause] to other neighborhoods, to challenge them right in their own neighborhoods. to, to let ‘em know we can kick their butt in their own neighborhood. At that time it wasn’t like today where you just are shooting, but some of us had, some weapons, but just some of us. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Well we were going to another neighborhood. I remember going with Orlando one day and, and we went, and we used to have to walk around this one neighborhood because The Corps used to hang around there and The Corps was a [pause] was a grouping of a lot of Italian, Irish, Polish gangs, and they all… ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: They used to be the Saint Michael’s Drum and Bugle Corps but they [pause] they changed into a gang. They, they, they started The Corps themselves became a gang. so we used to have to, to go to… we had a branch in Old Town it was like ten blocks away from our other branch, so me and Orlando, Orlando was the founder of the gang—Orlando Davila—was the founder of the street gang. I was the founder of I was one of the original founders with him. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But I was the founder of the political group the Young Lords. So I transformed the gang into, into the Young Lords as a political movement. So anyway, we, we walk, one day we’re walking and we would always have to go around the churches. Orlando said, “what, I got my pistol from my father, we’re gonna walk—me and you are gonna walk right through there. And I’m going…[all laugh a bit] And I’m going to let you; you better protect me because I don’t have nothing. ROBERTSON: Right. Page 9 �JIMENEZ: I had like a little knife and that was it, but, we’re talking about like eighty people that we’re going right… ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: Going through eighty people on the playground, so we’re, we’re walking in there [pause] and, I mean, there was like a big pride in us because I knew he had that, that, that weapon. I knew that he had that, and, and at that time there weren’t that many people carrying guns like they do today. ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And today that wouldn’t work. [Chuckles] ROBERTSON: Yeah, I bet. JIMENEZ: But so usually they would have bats and sticks and stuff like that; throw rocks, whatever—or, cut you up or something like that. So anyway, we’re walking through the middle and I can see these, these, these guys are, you can hear them. “Whoa, look at these Puerto Ricans here, they think they’re bad. Look, they’re walking through our neighborhood,” that kind of stuff; ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And I’m just glowing, like I know they’re not gonna... No, but they’re kind of afraid; they don’t know what we got. They don’t know what we got, but finally they kind of surround us and that, and they go, “Whoa, you guys are bad,” and, I don’t know what Orlando told them. He just said something, but, all of a sudden, “We should kick your butt,” and that, something like that. Orlando said, “Well, come on!” and that… [Fumbling over words] when they took out the pistol he started shooting, like in the air, and it just emptied out—the whole playground emptied out. [Sounds of shock/amazement] JIMENEZ: But, I mean after that, [pause] after that we would walk through there; it was like, everything was okay. I mean, we, ‘cause we went to school with some of these people, so the next day I got to the school and then after that there was no more, like we couldn’t walk through there. Now, to, to some people they would say that that’s prejudice that we can’t walk through there, ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But we were looking at it more like from a gang point, point of view; but you can, today you can kind of look at it and say—well, what Puerto Ricans… ‘Cause we had the same problem at the beach; we couldn’t, Puerto Ricans couldn’t go to the beach, so it wasn’t just the youth, it was the adults. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We couldn’t go to North Avenue Beach in Chicago, and that was in our neighborhood, so we had to go to Fullerton Beach, and, so the beaches were segregated. Chicago was a, was a segregated town at that time. It’s still somewhat segregated—where you have different, Puerto Ricans in one area; Mexicans in another; Page 10 �ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Italians in another; Irish in another;, Polish in, in another; so, so there in Lincoln Park it was like that, but, and, and blacks. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So these three blocks would be Polish. These three blocks German; like that, and we couldn’t, like African Americans couldn’t move north of North Avenue. In Chicago, there’s a street called North Avenue; and you would hear that, I mean, I would hear that as a kid going to the barber shop I heard [pause] because I was light-skinned, they didn’t know I was Puerto Rican [laughs], ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So I’m sitting there getting my hair cut, I’m just a little kid, and I’m hearing these adults talking about, “Mayor Daley, he’s not gonna let no blacks move past North Avenue. We don’t have to worry about that,” So, this was during the time of Urban Renewal, but I didn’t know that. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So there, so, so Urban Renewal to us was it was like a master plan for that city for—a fifty year master plan to clean up the lakefront and the downtown area. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And we were just caught up in the middle of that—the Lincoln Park neighborhood and Wicker Park later. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Because now Wicker Park no longer exists as we knew it then. That was also a Puerto Rican community, and it was wiped off the map. and I’m saying, you’re talking about thirty or forty thousand people to sixty thousand people in a neighborhood. ROBERTSON: They just had to up and relocate. JIMENEZ: Right, I mean they were like sixty thousand people, but let’s say a good thirty percent of that were, were Puerto Rican. That’s a good percentage, and we were all centered in the central part of the area. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: The rest were, were the lakefront that was always the same way. They called it the Gold Coast, so there was no urban renewal there. but in our neighborhood it was completely wiped out and just robbed; it was a land grab. I mean, they took they tra… they bought—they did it— legally, it was legal, a legal land grab. so, [fumbles over words] everything was done legally, if you, if you think that out of, out of a city council with fifty elder men and forty-nine of them are democrats, so if that’s legal to you [all laugh] Page 11 �JIMENEZ: Forty-nine out of fifty are voting one way, with Mayor Daley. So, if that’s le… if that’s called laws, making laws, I don’t know where to… [Laughing] I don’t know where it’s democracy; it’s definitely not the Americas. And they call themselves democrats; that’s the other thing, see. Here, it’s, it was strange for me to come to Michigan because everybody’s Republican, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And I’m going like, “I can’t tell the difference.” It’s, [all laugh], we’re still in the same boat. But, [pause] but anyway, I got off track again, I, I don’t know maybe we’ve got another question. ROBERTSON: Let’s see… yeah just I mean that process of organizing… JIMENEZ: Oh, organizing; okay, yeah. Okay, so we were in the gang—we’re gang banging, we’re doing all this stuff—I come out of jail, I’m in jail and I start reading, I got put in the hole, ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And they said, we go to jail and, and all the Puerto Ricans hang out together, that’s just common. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so there was some, some gangs there and they said “Those guys are a gang and they, and they want to attack us,” so they’re telling the guards; and then they’re talking about escaping because this one guy, we were joking and he’s, he’s putting his head through the window. So they say, “If you can put your head through the window, you’re gonna put your whole body,” So he’s, but he’s just joking; we’re not talking about escaping. He’s just, playing games. We’re just passing the time away; ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And so anyway that night they, they took us all downstairs, strip-searched us, and, took us to the hole; and that was a, a, a city jail so, so it was a, the house of correction? ROBERTSON: Mmh. JIMENEZ: So the most you do there is a year, and but, and I was doing sixty days and everybody else was doing like ten days, or something like that. So I had the most time; I had just come in, and now I’m like, they’re saying that I’m trying to escape so they’re putting me in maximum security, which is the hole, which means I don’t get out of my cell but once a week for a shower, and that’s it, and that’s with a guard. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So, you’ve got a lot of time to read; there’s not, no, nobody else there but you. I mean, it’s an old Civil War, Civil War cell house, so the catwalk, instead of being steel, it was wooden; and they had, they had big cats to get the rats, ‘cause there were rats, and there were roaches. ROBERTSON: Wow. Page 12 �JIMENEZ: I mean can you imagine going to jail [all laugh] and you gotta deal with roaches in jail. [Laughs] Oh, man; but, and then it was real cramped up cells and stuff like that. So I mean, you had nothing else, you’re spent most of the day in your underwear and, and, and you listen to the radio which is on a loud, those loud speakers like on M.A.S.H. that t.v. program. They had like loud speakers that you would hear the radio all day; and [pause] so you had a lot of time to, to, to, to think there. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so, I’m coming with my family—my mother being religious and that, and, and she had tried to convince me to become a priest anyways, at one time, before I got into the gang thing. I started trying to reflect and, and I wanted to go to confession—, as a Catholic you want to go to confession— and confess my sins and, and then I was using. I went from the gang to the drugs. That’s what, what you lead to; it goes from the gang to the, to the hard drugs. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so I said, “I don’t want,” “I don’t want the hard drugs,” I want to get away from that. a little beer and that, that’s fine. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: [Pause] But I don’t, I didn’t want to be involved with the, with the drugs, with the hard drugs. So, I went to confession and then they, I wanted to go to confession and the guard says, “Well, what you’re trying to do is just get out of your cell;” so, “we can’t let… you can’t go to confession.” I said, “What do you…” so I start trying to get legal on him, “You’re trying to,” you’re trying to well, I mean not legal, I just tried to tell him, “All I want to do is go to confession. Can I have the priest come here?” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: He said, “I don’t know if we can do that.” So I said, “Well, I’m asking,” . So he told me, “Put a note, and we’ll do that;” so that’s what I did, and then all of a sudden the priest came and, —, I it took a little bit because I had, you’re in a p-prison-like environment, [pause] and, you’re gonna go to confession, that’s like drinking [laughing] cookies and milk, what I’m saying? ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: It’s like, “Are you trying to be a Cub Scout in here? You can’t be a Cub Scout. You gotta… you’re not going along with the program.” But anyway I didn’t care; what I’m saying? I was, I was, … it was… when I believe in something that’s the way I, I was ? I, I didn’t care. That’s what I learned from my, from my mother and from her religion and stuff like that and so I said, “I don’t care. We’ll go to confession right here,” and, you feel like an-anybody when they go to confession. You feel pretty good afterwards and, and so I start… so now I’m hearing all this stuff about the Black Panthers, and I’m going to confession and then I hear the Black Panthers are on the radio and they’re taking over a courthouse in Alameda, California and they’re going with guns and everything to take over, and I’m going like, “Wow,” “this is great! This is what we need to do.” [all laugh] So I’m gonna change my life. I’m gonna stop gang banging and I want to become a revolutionary; what I’m saying? I don’t want to, … so then, Page 13 �then at the same time they’re bringing Martin Luther King… is, is, is killed, and so they’re bringing in the people that are riding, they’re bringing them into our cell house. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: So we’re looking at them from the top of, our cells. We’re looking down as they’re being [pause] shaken down, to see if they’ve got that… anything in there. Then they’re being asked questions diagnostic… questions, when they come in. So they’re bringing in riders and all of a sudden they’re also they’re doing raids on, on Mexican undocumented workers. So they’re bringing them in, and now there’s black guards--there’s not that many Spanish guards—but there’s black and white guards mainly. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But I’m looking at the black guards and they’re pushing the, the Latinos, and even though they’re Mexican or Puerto Rican—but they’re still Latinos, just like me; and so I’m going like, “Why don’t you leave those people alone? You don’t, you don’t,” I’m yelling; we’re yelling—the few Latinos that are up in the jail. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We’re yelling out, “Why don’t you leave them people alone? They’re not messing with you. They don’t understand what you’re talking about.” So, they would start asking a couple of qu- they would ask, the couple of black guys that were pretty good they would ask us a couple questions so we could help them translate. So then, I asked them, I said, “ what, I’ll translate,” “there’s not a problem. I’ll…” “Oh, you want to get out of your cell again.” I said, “No, no, no, no; I’ll do it from here.” [laughter] So I started yelling the questions and answers, back and forth and, that kind of helped me, also. I was like, I’m, I’m, I’m kind of serving my people or something like that, or in a way. so, so the riders and the Mexican, undocumented workers that were coming through there… and then I’m reading about Martin Luther King. The first book I read, though, was Thomas Merton, and I found out later he, he, he was a Trappist Monk, and I felt like a Trappist Monk [all laugh] in the cell, so he was, like, going through the same kind of stuff. So then, [pause] so I read that first, so that’s why I went to confession. I mean, that made me go to confession, the fact that he was religious and all that. But then I started reading Martin Luther King, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then I read Malcom X also. so that was two different philosophies: one was for peace, and one was for by any means necessary. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: [interviewee coughs] Excuse me, and then I’m, I’m hearing about the, the Panthers on, on the radio at the same time, and then... Anyway, I get out, I said, “What I need to do, what we need to do is to, to do the same thing for Puerto Ricans, ; ‘Cause we don’t have nothing like the Panthers. This is what we need to do.” Page 14 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So I came out with that idea, I’m gonna come out and I’m gonna try to ‘cause I was still the leader of the Young Lords at that time. So, I’m gonna try to do something with the Young Lords and do that, because I knew every time you go to jail they, the, the gang kind of breaks up a little bit and… ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: They don’t break up but they don’t, they don’t meet. There’s no meetings in there, … ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: That wasn’t to meet; and so, I came out but I had to deal with other stuff. I had to deal with— [laughing] I didn’t have a job, ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: What I’m saying, and so I, I got into this, program at the Argonne National Laboratory where half of the day I would be a janitor and the other half I would study for my GED. ROBERTSON: Nice. JIMENEZ: So, [pause] that was a riot, too. [laughing] But I mean, that, that, … we used to hide out and everything like that [all laughing] from our work, but we did, but we did… Anyway, they took us on a [pause] on a field trip to the Democratic convention and we saw the hippies getting beaten up; and before that, like I said, we used to cut the hippies’ hair. I mean, we just, just… they were there in Old Town, so they were there with us. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: It… Many of them were our friends, but we would do it just, just as, as a prank. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And like I said, we fought with the sailors and that so it wasn’t no big thing, but [pause] but anyway, we went to the Democratic convention and now they’re… we’re all former gang members or, or, or we’re still gang member’s but we’re studying for GED. So in there we’re getting along, everybody gets along because we’re all for the same thing. We’re trying to, get our GED. So we go to the Democratic convention and the police are running to get the hippies and they’re beating them up, but they’re beating up reporters, and we’re saying to ourselves, “If they come to us,” everybody’s saying, “Is everybody going to stand for themselves?” and everybody said, “Yeah, we’re ready.” so I mean you could tell that we were, we, we were going to fight. Our thing was not peace. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We were [laughing] we were gang bangers and we don’t know anything about what’s going on, we just came on, on a trip, a high school trip here. Page 15 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: They’re not going to beat us up, so… So anyway, when they came, we just kept walking straight. I remember about five or six of us, and the, and the professor—the teacher—and the police ran around us. They did… they, they could, I mean the way we were dressed, they could tell that we were not part of that, that crowd. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So it wasn’t that we put fear in them, [laughter] it’s just that these guys are not any part of this. They kind of let us go, but that kind of stuck [pause] seeing people getting beat up, that kind of stuck in my, in my head ‘cause we would get beat up by the police, too. that kind of stuff, and all this kind of stuff that I was reading. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So, anyway I had, I… On a different day, I met this lady, Pat Devine, and she was with some— two other people from the Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park, and I’m talking to Benny, who was a Young Lord, and he was in his uniform and he’s proud that he just… he’s on leave from Vietnam, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And this lady comes in, and I’m looking at the neighborhood since I got out—I was only gone sixty days ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And I could see the changes ROBERTSON: Wow. JIMENEZ: and this lady, I mean, they would… I mean, one-way streets, two-way streets, or one-way streets, you could see people getting thrown out by the sheriff and, and I’m talking to Benny, my friend, my best friend. He’s a Young Lord and he’s in a uniform and he’s proud. He’s a, a Vietnam veteran and all this stuff, —the Vietnam War because we were the ones who were put in the front lines. our, our people, … and this nice lady is telling him, “You’re killing the, the, the [pause] Vietnamese people,” and all this other stuff. I’m going like… so I go to his defense. To Benny’s defense and I used… I don’t mean any disrespect—I go, “Look, you [laughs] white bitch,” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: “who the heck do you think you are? You’re kicking us out of our neighborhood, and this man is fighting for our, for our people; and you’re kicking us out of our neighborhood against…”, “You’re a Communist,” and she goes, “I’m proud to be a Communist.” I go, “Oh no! [laughter] This lady’s crazy. This lady’s way out there; this lady’s crazy.” So, … so, anyway she, she hit me hard; harder than another guy would hit me—I mean she knocked me down with the way she, the way she could express herself and stuff like that; Page 16 �ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And, so it made me stop to think, and then, then I was a-already thinking about urban renewal and she says, “, we’re f… we’re… our organization is trying to fight to help people stay here,” . So, I mean, it started making sense to me. You get what I’m saying? So anyway, that night the, the other guys that were trying to rap to her and to her other friend and, and trying to, they were just trying to just rap to her but I was interested more in what she was saying; ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And, anyway, she invited me and Benny and, and everybody else to go to her house. just to relax and stuff like that—have a, have a few beers, stuff like that. So we did that, and we… I remember we were just talking all night, I mean we were sitting there talking and, and, and I’m asking her questions about it and stuff like that; and so she invited me and … me to, to, to come to a meeting. She said, “Well, can you bring any people to come to the urban renewal meeting,” ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And I’m going, “I can bring a thousand people. I’m the leader,” [laughter] that kind of stuff. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So she said, “Well it’s going to be in about three weeks,” “just, whatever you can come… whatever, as many people as you can get just bring them,” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: “Because it’s an important meeting about the neighborhood.” it was the Department of Urban Renewal was coming in. So that’s… this is a long story, but it’s… that’s when I started organizing and then I found out that, that to get people to come to a gang fight was a lot easier than to get ‘em to come to a meeting. [all laugh] what I’m saying? I mean, I, I went, I, I… people are supposed to organize like in the houses and stuff like that—well I didn’t know—I organized on street corners and in the bars. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: That’s all I knew. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: The street corners and the bar. So I, I remember going to the bar of, of another gang ‘cause I’m trying to reach out to everybody, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: All the different gangs, and I remember going into the bar and they go, “Oh, here comes that nut again, Cha Cha,” [all laugh] and, and, and even the bartender didn’t want me in there. ROBERTSON: Wow. Page 17 �JIMENEZ: And I’m talking and I said, “man, they’re kicking us out of our neighborhood,” and, real basic stuff. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: I… “You see these one-way signs,” and all this, real basic stuff. “Oh, you’re a Communist,” and I go, “I’m a Communist? Come on out and tell me that.” [laughter] So I would go out and get beat up [laughs] and then they would buy me a drink and, it went like that. like I said, I got beat up a lot of times and put down and, and and, basically they didn’t want you there. The bartender didn’t want you there, you’re messing with his customers. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: The guys didn’t want to hear, they don’t want to talk about that. they… politics, they don’t want to… and they thought I was crazy and stuff like that. So it was like a, … but I learned that from my mom. I mean, I learned that you had to be, you had to be committed. You had to stay, stay with it; that it takes time to, to organize something. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: I mean, it wasn’t easy. Those kids come into the house, for catechism, wasn’t just they did a lot of stuff; they did the catechism, and then they did, rosaries like because what their goal was to get Spanish mass… ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: In the churches. There was no Spanish mass. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And, their goal was also to get them… they would have, they finally got some Spanish masses, but then they put—they did the mass in the hall instead of the regular church because it was offensive to the, to the regular parishioners; and there was, there was not enough Puerto Ricans to, to, to… They felt that there was not enough Puerto Ricans, but actually the hall was getting more filled up than the church. [laughing] what I’m saying? ROBERTSON: Right, right. JIMENEZ: but they did a lot of good stuff; and then they worked with the gangs. I mean, the, I mean they, the… It became a community, because when there was a big gang epidemic, when we started fighting and stuff like that, they started organizing dances—weekly, weekly dances. So they were smart; they made money [pause] and they work, they work with their kids. They were, they could see their kids, so I mean… and they could promote, proselytizing, that’s what you call it. they could promote their, their church, also. out of that community, Lincoln Park came the first Puerto Rican parade of Chicago; out of this, this group called, the Knights of St. John, which was equivalent to the Knights of Columbus; ROBERTSON: Okay. Page 18 �JIMENEZ: And the Damas de María, Hijas de María, “Daughters of Mary”, in Spanish… [pause] But out of that they’re organized; my parents became that, and then we did our own organizing as youths, the Young Lords; because we didn’t just… When we, when, when we started to grow as Young Lords we didn’t just organize the Young Lords, we organized all the other youth in the area, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: All the other youth groups and stuff like that. But yet, the, the organizing part was, … I took you on a whole trip [laughing] to tell you that I was getting beat up every day... [all laugh] that it wasn’t that easy, that, the organizing; and, and, and then we got beat up by the cops later, so that’s, so that’s a different story. I mean, after we get organized we’re thinking that we’re doing good, good things, right. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: ‘Cause we’re, we’re not fighting. We’re refusing to fight any, anybody. we’re not, we’re trying to stay away from drugs; we don’t, we don’t want… we’re opposed to drugs. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We are for discipline; we want people to give more discipline. we want people to go to school; I mean, we thought we were doing everything the right way, but we begin to get attacked, by the police. for doing the… now they hate us more than when we were in, in a gang. They literally hate us more; I mean, they’re… anybody that’s wearing our button, they’re putting them against the wall and shaking them down, and these are community people who are wearing our buttons. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: They had a car parked twenty-four hours a day in front of our, our, our church; we did take over the church, but it became our headquarters and we had a daycare center there. We had a free breakfast for children program; we had a free health clinic; and we had cultural educational classes that were taught in the church. So, before it was empty. So we did take it over, and then, but right away the next day after we took it over… because the pastor had been working with us, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: It was the congregation that was opposed to us. We told them it’s not really a take-over, we just want to work together with, with the church for the community; and that pastor was later killed about six months later because it’s a cold case. It hasn’t been, [pause] proven who killed him or why. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But we know that, during that time he was killed, another pastor was killed, and Fred Hampton from the Panthers were killed. So we knew that it was some kind of pattern going on there at the time but we, but we can’t prove it. I mean we, we know that; and, and out of respect for the family we, we didn’t promote it at that time. we didn’t talk about it that, that, that much. just out of respect for them, but by not talking about them people thought that we had something to do with it; because they used knives and all Puerto Ricans are supposed to carry knives. I mean they, but, it was a, … Page 19 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: People that, that, that read about it they could tell that it was something related to passion [fumbling over words] because of the way he was stabbed; he was stabbed seventeen times and his wife nine times. so it was, that was passion that tells you… it had to do with passion. ROBERTSON: Certainly. JIMENEZ: Now, when we took over the church we put Che Guevara as a mural; we put out Lisa Compos, which is another, Puerto Rican—nationalist from Puerto Rico; we put Lolita Lebrón, another Puerto Rican nationalist woman; we put Adelita, a woman from Mexico; and we put Emiliano Zapata on the wall. We put, like I said Che Guevara was on, was on the wall; so that could make somebody in the congregation… because the congregation was mostly Cuban exiles, so that could make Cuban exiles angry. We didn’t think about it because, we were thinking, “We’re Puerto Ricans,” and the community was mainly Puerto Rican; ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But, I could see why that would make them very angry that they’re first to put a mural of Che Guevara on their church wall. I mean, today I wouldn’t do that, I mean, … ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But we, we didn’t … We didn’t mean any harm by that, but I mean, … but I’m saying that could be one of the reasons. Now another, another thing was that we protested against the local mafia because he had put a sub-machine gun on a Puerto Rican business owner, because he, the business owner owned a restaurant and couldn’t afford the rent at that time. So the, the, the real estate office, who was, who was also the local mafia guy—and the reason I know he was the local mafia guy was my father. He used to sell the, bring the money for the numbers to him. So I knew, [laughing] so I knew that personally. Yeah, he was the local mafia; but any… but we still picketed in front of his place and, and I went with some, with some people that had a local tabloid newspaper, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And, and they took pictures while this guy put his sub-machine gun on me. All I did was put my finger in my pocket, I didn’t [ROBERTSON: Wow.] have a weapon. So I put my finger in my pocket because I didn’t know what else to do when he put the sub-machine gun… and he ran into the back office that had a window and started calling the police. The police comes in, he comes out with his submachine gun and the police is there, and they’re frisking me [ROBERTSON: What?!] while this guy’s holding a sub-machine gun, but we’re taking pictures. So we took pictures and we, and we put those on the newspaper tabloid—about twenty pictures all around the front page; ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then we, we, we split about twenty thousand copies of them, we spread through the neighborhood; Page 20 �ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And so, after that we didn’t, we didn’t break his windows, [laughs] but the adults were breaking them. Every Friday night they would break his window. He started with a big picture window and then… little, little, little blocks of windows; but, so it could have been, it could have been them too. I mean, it could have been the local mafia that we had to deal with, because the local mafia was the one pushing real estate with the city. It could have Lee Alderman, because Lee Alderman had an organization called United People to Inform Good-Doers and they were going through our garbage cans and stuff like that trying to find any information that they could to use against us. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And that they could publicize to the… they thought we were getting funding from the Methodist churches in the suburbs, so they, they publicized a few things in the suburbs, Lee Alderman did. Now, we also broke into Lee Alderman’s press conference and, and exposed them because he had gotten caught with a prostitute in the neighborhood, so we exposed him right in front of the media. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So he wasn’t too happy with that, either; [laughter] so we were making enemies, I mean is what I’m saying, and, and they, they were, our target was, was the pastor who was allowing us to… Oh, and they were also trying to, … there’s letters at DePaul University where they, they were sending letters to the bishop, trying to get the bishop to kick us out of the church; ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And he was saying no, that he was not, going to kick us out and the bishop was with us. he’s saying, “No, no,” “that’s his ministry and, and, and we’re gonna let him work with the youth. He’s working with the youth, so that’s his ministry.” So, so Lee Alderman and the committee, the uptight United People to Inform Good-Doers was definitely… had a campaign to try and get us out of there; and they were connected with the local mafia and the police and everybody else, so, so I don’t know… but then we also had the fact that we were part of a a rainbow coalition with the Black Panther Party and the Young Patriots, which was, an Appalachian white group that, that was, that we were working together with, and, so they… the Black Panther Party was being investigated by COINTELPRO, the Counter-Intelligence Program. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So anybody that was connected to them—and we definitely were—I mean, I was going to speaking engagements with, Fred Hampton many, many times and many days. We spent a whole day with him because he was helping train, train us also. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: We were learning from… so the- we had a lot of enemies at that time. We were in cir- what you call in circles, they were circling… we were the wagon and they were circling us. and we didn’t… and Page 21 �all we were trying to do was just, like to save our community; I mean, that’s all we were trying to do. We were probably saying too many things we didn’t need to say, but, other things, but I mean that was the main reason that, that we started was to save, to save the neighborhood;, save our ‘hood, save our neighborhood… but, [pause] but anyway, that’s how… That was a long one, right? [all laugh] JIMENEZ: I mean we did not understand how at that time I was well liked by a lot of people at that time and I know I should be liked more because I went through a program substance abuse programs and everything to change my negativity right. ROBERTSON: Mhmm JIMENEZ: I should be liked more, but I am hatted more ROBERTSON: Hmm? JIMENEZ: So that was we are saying was a concerted effort. To discredit me and what we were doing to people and that was one of the reasons that I ran for alderman and in nineteen seventy five it was more so that we could stay alive. As a movement and so that I ran in the neighborhood north of Lincoln Park which was lake view uptown because there were no more Puerto Ricans left in Lincoln park and in uptown they were starting to kick the Puerto Ricans out of there as well as like I said we kept moving north and west. So the aldermanic campaign I remember because we had to go underground and I went underground because I got arrested eighteen times in a six week period and for all felonies and so they were it was clear that they were trying to destroy the group in that way so I got a year and asked for a little time to straighten things out with my family and I took off and just went underground that meant that like today I could say that I am underground but because I am not in Chicago I am not in public or anything. But so we did that for like two and a half years which was I would have liked to looking back at it today I would have rather done two and a half years in jail then to be underground for two and a half years because at least in jail you have communication but I could not even communicate with my own family for two and a half years so that that’s why it was more difficult in that way but next time I would just take the jail time but anyway the while I was underground we organized a couple of movements a few more chapters of the young lords like in Los Angeles and San Diego and Hayward and Boston we worked with a group there so we were keeping a little busy while we were underground then what I decided was we needed like a training school for the leadership because I found out that Chicago was kinda falling apart a little bit m and they were starting to put drugs back in to the neighborhood so when I heard a lot of that stuff I said let’s get a group of people and we will rent a farm in Tomah Wisconsin I considered that because no one is there but we rented a farm in Tomah Wisconsin and about twenty three of use lived together like a commune but not really we had structure we would wake up in the morning and every one would have chores it was like a program and then people had to read. Like my mother I was not a teacher so I would tell them to read the book and discuss it I want I didn’t really have a plan you just have to read this book so we read it so read books like Frantz Fanon and books like that and some Lennon books but m we were mainly concerned with what they call the national question so that was the whole question of Puerto Rico, self-determination and how to organize that and in other words it was a two-step process because people were saying that we have to talk about the class struggle the poor vs. the rich and we were saying that we also have to talk about Puerto Rico we have a Page 22 �nation called Puerto Rico so it is ok to be a little nationalistic as long as you are also internationalist as long as it is not racist because we were against nationalism because that was racist but we said its ok to talk about that and be proud of that as long as you are still an internationalist and you respect everyone else and so that was to us the national question so said that before you can talk about class struggle m it is all collectivism or whatever but it’s all the same thing it’s all mixed up anyway but before we could even get to that point, but at that point everyone was talking about the class struggle or organize the workers and stuff like that and I’m going we can’t even get in to the job you want us to organize the job but we can’t even get in the plant so we are going to organize with in the community so that was what we decided that we needed not in the factory but in the community but I am not saying not to organize as an effect but our goal as an organization is to organize the values(27:55) to organize the communities and to look at it geographically to go door to door and that what we learned latter on with the aldermanice campaine and the mayoral campaine of mayor Washington was to go door to door that that was the best form of organizing we had programs but if you go door to door you don’t miss anybody and so our goal then became clear what our job had to be it was to go to each latino balto and try to organize door to door and stuff like that but we were never able to because of funding and other stuff we were never able to accomplish that goal completely, but it did spread and it did spread to other cities like that like creating base areas we called it but that was the kind of stuff that we started at the training school and that we did that for about two years and then from there we started doing target practice because we though that the revelution was going to be the next day and this guy blew his thumb off (Ha-ha) so we had to close down the place we had to get out of there because I was wanted by the law and so every one could have gone to jail but I had to so we moved from there to millwalky and we put out a newspaper and then whent back to Chicago and got appartments and people lived togeather and today when I am doing these interviews today there are still living togeather in the same apartment you go to one apartment house and everone in the building is an organizer that works togeather but they are not all young lords they are in different group but they learned from us because that is what we did so we went back to Chicago and we I actualy was livng a couple of blocks from the police station were I turned myself in laterbut we planed the turning of myself back in, turning my self in. but it is like they are not going to do this for us we have to do it aurselfs so passed out flyers all over the neighborhood and we sent them to peole in the media to make sure that they would be there and stuff like that and then we had about five hundered people when it was like four below zero(25:36) and there was like five hundered people marching when I turned myself in and basecly I wwnt downtown and took a cab and drove up to the police station and the marchers are on this side and I am paying the cab driver and I start to walk in to the crowd and I start shaking hands with every body and the loyers were there and the police grabed me right away but I was able to shack hands with a few people and then because of the layers they let me talk through a loud speaker to the crowed and stuff like that and so that was good I mean it was a good event but the fact that we had five hundered people show up at four below zero was pretty amazing that was pretty good and then right away they took me and I started my year in jail and wial I was doing the year in jail we were planning the alderman campaign and so when I can outit was easy because people know that I had just came out of jail and I am running for alderman(24:35) so I mean that brought news but we did a good campaine we had 39 percent of the vote for the first time and all you need is 51 percent to win and usualy the first time people get like one percent but I mean we did pretty good. And the second time it was not me running but the major and Page 23 �we helped him win the election so it was a different feeling from picket signes to, I think two hours are up, right (Ha-ha) from picket signes we went to a victory we won a majors we won a majors race and it was a different fealing because I could wallk in to city hall and see the major when I want just callhim up and say that I am on my way I did not have anything important to talk to him about it was just to say hello (Ha-ha) but it was a great fealing. I remember that night when we won because see our office was the fullerton office and it was mixed it was divers and latino were atomaticly going to go vote for herald not attomaticly I mean that we had to do our work but we were winning eighty to ninty present for herald Washington major the first African American major and in the purto rican area and in the anglo community in the white community they did not do that well but still with out them getting any vote we would have not have won and so I remember how hapy they were too I mean it was like hay we won like yea we did it. So it was a good fealing I am telling you I i remember my cousin I had submitted his name for the some liberary board and and I walk in to city hall and there was a couple of other people there with me and I see him and I great him an I go hay how are you doing Carmelo and he goes hay cha cha how are you and I says if you cant he says that if you came to see that major he is out of town you will not be able to see him and I’m going like I’m thinking that he is out of town I just talked to him but I did not tell him that so I said ok he said that I have been here a couple of hours and I am going to see the cheaf of staff because they are going to put me on the library board and I am going I know because I put your name (Ha-ha)ha but anyway so I’m going in there and this guy herald safical the security guard he is a cop major safle but he is a progressive cop he was with the he was for the panthers and things like that. And he goes hay cha cha so I say ok and I go in to the back and sure enough halrald Washington in in the back (Ha-ha)ha he was not out of town we was in the backbut I had gone to see him because I had went with some bills to his office and I sayed who is paying for this because I don’t have no money (Haha)so that was pretty pretty amazing times at that time and then he won again the second time but I did not work on that I was in Michigan during the second time but that was a victory for us because what happened is because we were the first group, latino group in the city to indorce him we did not ask for money you see our thing was more poklitical and we did not ask we were conserned about the community we were we vote we worked on his campaine because he rep… in fact it was called neighberhoods vs. downtown so that is why it fit in with what we were in to (20:37) so we were for his campaine and we know he had that he was very progressive person and we wanted anyone to defeat the daily machine so he was against that so so when he won he he organized he we did we and the office of special events for Chicago organized an event in the purto rican neighborhood of humble park and there were a hundered thousand Puerto Ricans in that park I mean wall to wall Puerto Ricans in that park and I was the only one on stage introducing the major at that time and he and he we were able to be able to choose that band that played it was willy colone and when he came to town people would pay like 40 50 dollars to see him and so they were seing him for free so that loded it up plus we did media on the radio and stuff like that that was payed from the budget of the office of special events so we were kind of directing it but they were kinds supling the money and the expertise to quordinate it because he had invited all of the community leaders to sit in a band shell or what ever but I was the only one on stagewith introducing the major but that is that whole speech in in the wikipidia article it’s a hole little two minite speech that I gave. Introducing him cus there that to use represented the victory we had went from a gang or what ever from an…to to becoming the young lords picketing protesting to taking over occupy they use the word occupy to day but we were calling it takeovers then and and our Page 24 �takovers we won we did not leave till our demands were met and and we were so unpredictabale that they wanted to give us the demands so what ever you want you can have (Ha-ha) because they did not know were we were going to come from so there was a few of us running around with guns (Ha-ha) and we are not leaving so I mean but and the families but we would have got killed but the families that were in side wial we took over micormic seminary for example we were there for a whole week the demands were $605,000 for them to invest in to low income housing, $25,000 for the health clinic for two health clinics so that was $50,000 and then another $25,000 to open up a peoples law center. (17:57) because the loyers were helping us negosheate we were there for a whole week we took it over the young lords and the next day and we did not even plan for food for provitions so today they would havewiped us out that is what they do today they some body took over some other place the other day in Chicago and they would not allow any food in. but you see what happened with us the community came and brought food the net day and then we let them come in so the next day we had three hundred and fifty people and and what happened is that when the police were wanting to attack us they decided to bring in the kids not us we did not want the kids to come in side but they said no no we are going to bring the kids so that that way they wont attack they wont come in and then the students were in the front of the building the students were our security in front so it was a seminary it was a complex like this it was a big complex we are talking about depaul university and it is today at that time it was called micormic theological seminary so it was a big complex like this and we took over the administration building a three level three story administration building and we were there we lived in there for a week in fact we won all of the demands and I told everybody that ok we can leave now and they went I am not leaving I have an office and no we got to leave (Ha-ha) we got to leave we did not leave but we had fun doing that they had music they had a lot of descution groups nothing but talk everyone was just talking all day and so every one came close by talking and became close and then we won all of the demands and we thretone to burn down the liberary because they were thretining to come in so we said we are going to go take over the liberary and then we are going to burn it down if we have to burn it down we don’t care that night is when they called us for the meeting “cough excuse me” that night is when they called us for the meeting but about two oclock in the morning and they said what what ever demands you wantwe will sign we will agree to your demands they had a little we had just read your demands and if thoughs are your demands then we will give you all of the demands you ask and I sayed ok so than the next day we were but I remember having press conferenses every day on top (Ha-ha) of the thing they had a little window sill that we would have press conferences out of there is a picture of that some were there is a picture but I have it some were but anyway so that is I don’t remember were we were at there a tangent I guess. ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) Yea its like your saying coming from that level of street corner talk to political standing. JIMENEZ: How much time do we have left. ROBERTSON: Well we have as much time as we need. JIMENEZ: Ok Page 25 �ROBERTSON: As far as the questions. I was curious, I mean like you were saying, born in Puerto Rico, never really knowing it to much coming hear like you said when you were two years old and just moving around as much as you have like what are essential elements for you to consider some place home? JIMENEZ: Well my home is been Chicago that has been my home but my home is also but it does not exist any more I mean linken Park does not exist anymore I really don’t know when I was fifteen years old I went and stayed for about a year in Puerto Rico and and that was I was put on the plan in handcuffs and sent to Puerto Rico they were trying to deport me because I was the leader of the young lords and I had got some kind of case were we broke in to a house or something at the time and and I was not even good at that but that was something from the gang days and anyway I was still a juvenile and we will either put you hear and I was fourteen or something we will put you in a sharaten and shareten was a juvenile prison until your twenty one like juveniles htat have commited murders or something would go there or dangerous criminals they thought that I was a dangerous criminal or I don’t know I was never the fighter Orlando was the fighter in the group I was more always the organizer but Orlando never wanted to lead so I was the leader of the group. (12:48) but anyway so my mother said that I don’t want my son to go to jail till he was twenty one years old I will send him to Puerto Rico but I was balling I was crying I did not want to go but they took us in a pady wagon from the jail to the airport and at the airport they watched us from up above ant they let me talk to my parents and they walked me to the door and I I was that was when I started crying cuz I could not control myself cuz I did not know were I was going I’m like cheradin I knew were I was going and I will find friends who are there in jail I mean it is a life of jail so people but in Puerto Rico I didn’t know anybody or I thought I didn’t know anybody once I got there my uncle who met me he had come back and forth to Chicago several times so I did know him and other uncles and ants that had come back and fourth because we are like a shudle culture so we travel back and fourth all the time but I did not know that at first so but I went there at first and right away they said gangster from Chicago alcapone (Ha-ha) right away that was what everyone was thinking so but I remember hanging out with the priest because he was the only guy that I could talk to in English and I remember smiling because my grandmother would ask me stuff and I would just smile because I did not know the heck what she was saying and my grandfather woud get mad he would say he knows he knows he is just pretending that kind of thing but he was the backwards guy my father was bad he was wors but he was the one who tought me about the country and stuff like that I would hang out with him and go up to him on the mountain because the farm was a mountain the farm was not flat land it was on a mountain all of Puerto Rico is like that it is all hilly so the farms are all hlly and stuff like that so you have to climb and it is good because you climb to the top and there is fresh airy cool fresh air (10:37) when you go to the bottom it is all hot and but I got to know slowly I even went with one pare of shoes and had to save them for like Sunday so I walked around like what do you call it huckel berry fin is that with out shoes I mean I walked around that is what we did at that time we could not people could not afford shoes and that so they would save there shoes for like Sunday and that but I hung around witht the prist and I remembered I did not get in to any real big truble all though I did steal his hourse (Ha-ha) and his jeep one time because I fell in love with this girl in another bouyo another part of Puerto Rico and I was hanging out with and I was not trying to steel it I was just trying to barrow it (Ha-ha) butthat is what guys do when they are young and in love. So I I took his hourse one day and the jeep and then every one in the hole the thing is that every one goes to church on suday so if you do Page 26 �not go to church on Sunday you have to hide you don’t let anyone know that you are not at church cuz its like a country and its just one church and every body for miles away you can see form all the hils so we would go I remember cause he made me go to confection in front of everybody and that kind of stuff and that but he became like a friend of mine he got me a job in a in a hard wear store a ferreta they call it and I remember I met a guy from New York that was helping me because I would just sit there and stand in the front counter and people would come there and ask me something like a nail or something and I would not know but hten they ask me for something like a fouset and I right away I would have to go to my friend from new york whats this mean calesa what is he saying but I learned Spanish I had to learn Spanish that way and I even learned the song and stuff like that and in Christmas time that’s a big holiday in Puerto Rico the the three kings but it because of the American culture it starts like on crismas eve and then it last till January six which is the day of the three kings and everyone goes house to house and there like trubidors so they like sing and they improvise and so all my uncles and stuff like that they know how to improvise and before they had radio that was the way that they that was there music after they work in the fields all day they would come back and at night time and I learned it from my mom from researching her and at knighting like that my brothers and that we would just hang out on the purch and the vatey the yard ike hear like the yard hear they were not that big but they would there was a clearance because the rest was jungle you are talking about a tropical place so there was a little clearing in the front called the batay and they would sing there music there that was there radio that was how they relaxed at night and stuff like that but today it is only used mainly at Christmas time but before it was used for any holiday if you die you get a batranda they call it if you a birthday you get a bathranda wedding baptism whatever you get a bathranda but now it is just mainly done for Christmas for Christmas time and stuff like that but it is they are really celebrating the the three kings verses santa clouse and in fact they have an improvisation were one guy( 6:52) would say well I believe in Santa clause and the other would say no I am Puerto Rican I believe in the Three Kings but they are both Puerto Ricans but because we believe in both because of the influences but that type of music my uncles that I grew up with hear even though I did not grow up in Puerto Rico I grew up with that kind of music here for Christmas we would get together the family and we would sing thoughs songs and then and believe me I have some uncles that are pretty good at improvising and they would I remember one time we went to this house one of our ants house and they had just finished painting the house I mean you could smell the paint and so they come to the door and they start with whatever and they would start singing and they would say what a beautiful house it has such nice furniture and stuff like that and the walls must have been painted by the brush of pecaso (Ha-ha) so then it so then everyone had to rhyme with that at the end they would be they would sing a song and the last vers was it was done with the brush of Picasso so I mean they that was how it works that music that kind of music but it was great music I mean its also n the web there is a bunch of websites and stuff on there on the YouTube and stuff like that but yea we grew up with so I learned a little bit about the culture and I came back and I remember the young lords sweter cause I came back before around the year o yea I came back around the year that my father comes and the first thing he does is that the tetarus the tetarus are the riffraff’s of the neighborhood and I was one of them and he was one of them everyone from there in that section growing up became one of them so its like a gang but it’s a community gang so everyone knows them nobody worried about them (Ha-ha) but they are always stealing the eggs or something but no one pays attention to them they all talk and they all scape goat them like they scape goat gangs here but they Page 27 �scape goat them but they are all kids so they cant really hate them and every single one of them would snake out there so there really all really part all the men are apart of the thing (Ha-ha) ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) JIMENEZ: And they would hang out in front of the store and look at the women and look at every one but anyway I remember but they would do serves to because my because the people that would come and visiting they would take there suit case and carry them to make them feel important for a tip and I remember my father he is over here coming to pick me up(3:57) and to visit and he hadn’t visited me all year but here he is coming to visit me but at least he’s I’m happy because he is going to take me back to Chicago so then I remember right away the titas they would carry his suit case and yea no problem and he is showing off and I am going I don’t know pops you got to slow down on the money because he starts buying everyone drinks and you got to slow down the money and I’m looking at his pants pocket like he is half way drunk he’s got his pants on and there is food stamps so the next day I tell him what are you doing showing off and you got food stamps (Ha-ha) so I said and he did not even have a job at that time my mother was the one that was working and he was getting well fair so that was the vasod that Puerto Ricans hear that was a contradiction that I was seeing how our people were acting and how it was not real how our people were playing the lottery but telling me that I cant do certain things that are not legal I said you’re not legal you are selling the numbers and what I am saying you’re your selling the numbers you’re playing the Spanish bingo which is not legal now I don’t know why that shouldn’t be legal but because they play it at the churches they play bingo at the churches so I mean that is another contradiction right but the Spanish bingo was illegal I don’t know why I mean they just they just did it for a quarter or a dime or whatever not a big thing but there were so many contradictions that you see and stuff like that then you go to school and then they are teaching you one thing and how even coming here to grand valley so and one class were they show us pictures and they say what does this person look like and everyone goes all right they had a picture of a hippy and they got a migrant worker and something like that and they go well he is a losser and this is in one of our classes and I’m going like I did not say nothing but I’m thinking to myself that guy looks like my dad how are you going to call my dad a losser he is not a loser I mean he did not have any money but he was a good parent I mean he what I am saying I mean ROBERTSON: Yea they were generalizing JIMENEZ: Yea he was a little macho and stuff like that but then(1:27) my mom had a little thing for the macho (Ha-ha) she says that a macho is a guy who can raise a family (Ha-ha) be a man he’s not he is not a macho he is not a man when he would get smart she would put him down ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) JIMENEZ: I mean it was a part of the culture thing because they also labeled macho to to mean for Spanish people and it is in all cultures and stuff like that so he was a little macho by culture he thought he was the big shot but he did not works she would put him down like I am the bread winner you don’t work you are on well fair (Ha-ha) so I mean there were so many contradictions and and that came in to play when we got in to the young lords and stuff like that and but we got in to the young lords we like I Page 28 �said we were learning from the panthers and stuff like that and we needed the whole question of selfdetermination and the whole the whole the main reason that we started was the displacement of our community we were being kicked out but then we related that to is this thing going out are we recording? ROBERTSON: I am kind of queries yea JIMENEZ: Oh ok actually the other stuff you can probable get out of the Wikipedia thing (Ha-ha) I gave you stuff that is not on there END OF INTERVIEW Page 29 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a554612e6ea23035344655137db3604.mp3 fa9084f027e31f5aac64e45563d48a7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Jimenez_Jose Title A name given to the resource Jose Jimenez audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimenez, Jose Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robertson, Timothy Hood, Ashlie Perez, Angelica Description An account of the resource Jose Jimenez was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico and lived in Chicago. He discusses his experiences as the leader of the Young Lords and an activist for Latin Americans. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives