1 24 44 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b73a7e5f993aa23580f5d974ee4dfca1.pdf 56d02c3fe2370c51d1564ed980d476e3 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Arlene Akker Interviewers: Kelly Gorajec, L. Bailey, B. Harter, and Z. Huyser Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/22/2012 Biography and Description Arlene Akker is a teacher at Muskegon High school. She was born and raised in Muskegon Heights. She discusses racism and diversity growing up in Muskegon. Transcript Kelly Gorajec (GORAJEC): I’m here today with Arlene Akker, my name is Kelly Gorajec, its February 22nd, at 3:03 PM at Muskegon High School in Muskegon, Michigan. We’re here today to talk about your experiences with civil rights in west Michigan. So, can you give me some basic information about yourself? Arlene Akker (AKKER): Well, my name is Arlene Akker; I’m a teacher at Muskegon High School. I was born and raised in Muskegon Heights, Muskegon. I have lived on Amity Avenue by Steele Middle School. I went through Angel and Steele, and then because my mother taught at Muskegon High School, I had to go through a private high school, but I took classes here. And, I have a degree in History and English and I have lived in Muskegon for a long time. GORAJEC: do you have any children? AKKER: I have two children, they are both adults. GORAJEC: Can you tell me about where you went to school? AKKER: Well I went to Angel and Steele school, which as you know, an elementary or at least it was an elementary school and middle school to Muskegon public schools. I had, when I was at Angel school, the very first African American teacher in the Muskegon Public Schools. She was my fifth grade teacher (that’s interesting) she was also my teacher at the time that Kennedy was assassinated so there’s a lot of history there. And she’s still very active in the school and I am so glad when I see her. I went to Steele during the civil rights movement and I was also a student at Steele school at the time Martin Luther King was assassinated. So I lived through riots down Amity Avenue where our windows were broken in our homes, and I didn’t really feel safe all the time walking home, but that did pass. GORAJEC: Yeah. So, since you have always lived in west Michigan, can you tell me why you didn’t decide to leave, or can you elaborate why you’re still here? Page 1 �AKKER: Well it’s my home. It’s where my husband grew up, and my *immediate+ family is here and, actually my *extended+ family is not here any longer they’ve moved away. I did live for a year in Holland or two years when I went to Hope College, and I lived one year in Florida, very glad I don’t live there anymore. , I have always felt the Muskegon had a certain diversity that I appreciated. Living in Florida in a city called Altarnonte Springs, I taught in a city called Sanford in an all-white school where they were very segregated and would not allow students of color into their school, which drove me nuts, that was not my life. So I was very glad to get back here. GORAJEC: Did race like, play a big role in your growing up? AKKER: I think racial tensions when I was little were very covert in Muskegon. I didn’t realize that we had any racial tensions. Angel school was, at the time, probably a very diverse school, but it would look very “white” today, but I had friends of all colors, friends of all ethnicities. I had two best friends, one was Jewish, one was black and that just never occurred to me that there was any problem, not in elementary school. When our neighbor, my first neighbors, sold their house to a black family, I found out what racism was because my parents were racist. They were extremely upset. GORAJEC: Can you tell me about your experience with that, like, were you surprised? AKKER: I was shocked. It’s like “what’s going on?” you know? It was not something that I really felt was a problem cause I had not felt any racial tensions, but, my parents continued to live there several years later. But it was something that I was aware of and as that house sold, many houses in our neighborhood went up for sale and that was probably my first real experience of understanding what racism was. I also had a very good friend who was black in elementary school and we went through sixth grade. So sixth grade went to, we got taken out to lunch with our teachers if we won the math quiz and my friend and I went out to lunch without teacher and we were not served because my friend was black. That was at Walgreen’s downtown, and no one realizes that Walgreen’s had a restaurant back then, before we had a mall, before the mall was torn down, so yeah, we were served, but much later than we had planned. Much later than when everyone else was served. GORAJEC: Have you, you said that you’ve traveled outside of west Michigan, has that affected your view of the world and where you come from in a way? Like how has that compared to here in west Michigan? AKKER: Hmm I’ve traveled through the United States, Mexico, Canada, and seven European countries and the world outside of Muskegon is much larger than people realize. I think that going to Europe really opened my eyes because Americans at the time that I was in Europe were not really appreciated. It was after Vietnam, but it was before some of the tensions that we have in the Middle East at this point, so we had that tension between the Cold War, I mean it was kind of??? and being in Europe and being in America after, even though I was in Western Europe and they were not a part of the so called “Iron Curtain” countries or the Soviet Union, there was still a certain amount of tension. the United States, just traveling around you see all types of people and it doesn’t matter what color they are. There are some very wealthy, very impoverished, and that’s what I see when I travel and I see different pockets of the country much different from Muskegon is or west Michigan. I have a very close friend in Kentucky who was taught in high school that slavery was necessary to run the tobacco fields in Kentucky, because that’s how they made their money, they didn’t have to learn economics. It was an industry that they had that they felt it was necessary. It wasn’t right but it was necessary. When she told me that I about died, I was like “whoa, this is not something I’m familiar with”. Page 2 �GORAJEC: You mentioned some of the major changes you’ve lived through; can you tell me about some that you had a personal connection with? AKKER: Well I have several things that I have personal connection with. First of all I have the first African American teacher at Angel school when Kennedy was assassinated, and Kennedy was a person that we have really no idea what kind of president he would have become had he served out two terms, but he was the kind of president that people worshipped. He was young and vibrant and he was definitely a person who wanted to see much more civil rights within our country. That being said, having an African American teacher kind of enhanced that, and we all got into watching his presidency and being so excited that we was president. And she really didn’t swear political beliefs, just wanted to present to us what was going on nationally in our government and being in fifth grade that was a lot to take in and then, being there on November 22 in school when it was announce he had been assassinated and having her as a teacher, going through that with her helped me understand just the kind of connection she had and it brought me into a connection with the Kennedys that has always been there. I have always been an infatuated person with the Kennedys. GORAJEC: Is there anything else? AKKER: yeah, several years ago, probably two or three, there was a movie made in west Michigan, in Muskegon actually, called “Up From the Bottoms.” It was about the influx of black people from the south to work in the north work in Muskegon in the factories as cheap labor during World War II, and they were actually housed in an area that was substandard from where most of the ordinary people in Muskegon lived. Well, my uncle was one of the people in the movie, he has since passed away, but he was one that was instrental in bringing them into Muskegon working for some of the labor factories. He was a personal director for a factory, but he was also one who had a personal transformation when he realized the living conditions and the ignorance that people in Muskegon had toward our “immigrants” you might say, coming in to work in our city, and he actually helped them find jobs or find homes that were suitable. But if you look at the makeup of Muskegon, you can see how Muskegon is laid out. If you go up Russell Road, in the North Muskegon area, you can see a congregation or, inhabitants of black in nature. You’ll see them in Muskegon Heights, and then they have immigrated and migrated into Muskegon. But that’s where the pockets were: Russell Road and Muskegon Heights. GORAJEC: Okay, have you seen any significant progress regarding quality in west Michigan throughout the years? AKKER: Oh yeah. When I talk about my growing up for years thinking that most racism was very covert, I have seen a tremendous change in the school’s makeup, our society’s makeup, how we view people. As I got older and I saw much more racism, I realized that we we’re supposed to all be created equal, so what’s going on with this little pocket of racism? So, I saw a transformation in people. Especially working in the position I do, in the school district I do. I’ve seen it evolve into an acceptance; not that you don’t see color, but an acceptance of everybody. It doesn’t matter what the color of a person’s skin is, it’s a matter of “Hey, you’re a kid and I’m going to go teach you!”, and so, that’s how I’ve seen a change. GORAJEC: Have you seen any areas where not much progress has been made? AKKER: In our court system. Page 3 �GORAJEC: Can you tell me more about that? AKKER: I still see a very large amount of people who are tried and being found, being tried for crimes, being jailed for crimes. And I can’t say that they aren’t guilty, but it just seems to me that there’s many more black people in our prison system than there is white. There’s also more Hispanic in our system than there is white, and that’s where I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it on advertisements on TV, there’s still an inequality. Oh, and probably in our law enforcement. There’s still inequality there, I still believe that people are targeted for their race in our law enforcement. GORAJEC: Do you feel that a lot of the progress is unjust like in the courts system or does it feel wrong to you at all? AKKER: Mhmm GORAJEC: Is there any specific reason? AKKER: I don’t have an answer for it yet, okay, it feels wrong. I can’t say people aren’t guilty that are being tried I just feel that more people are arrested that are black than of white skin color. GORAJEC: Okay, was there any point in your life that you felt discriminated by others or felt that you didn’t fit in for some reasons? AKKER: I’m a woman, and I’ve been alive for fifty plus years. I’ve seen discrimination because I am a woman. , I have lost out on jobs. Not necessarily in teaching, but other jobs because I am a woman. As I started my career, I worked in management at a hospital and I lost out on a couple of the higher management positions because I am female. I have evolved into not seeing that anymore, maybe because in teaching I don’t think there is a discrimination between male and female, but there certainly was as I was growing into an adult, going into school, wanting to take certain classes being told “Eh, you know, you’re a female, you probably shouldn’t have goals to do that. You should be a secretary, or a nurse. That was the things I was told rather than ‘be anything you want’.” GORAJEC: Okay, have there been any moments in your life that you faced adversity in a memorable way? AKKER: Hmm well this has nothing to do with diversity. But, as a young child I was teased because I had a wart, so I mean, students teased me. I was teased as a youngster, because I was not terribly athletic, but I became athletic as I grew older. , I was fearful of....well, I don’t know what I was fearful as a youngster, but I became more athletic so I faced adversity as I was teased, but I think that as I’ve grown older I haven’t faced a lot of adversity. Gee, that’s terrible I should think about that. Maybe I’ve blocked some of it out! I don’t know, I was never as smart as I wanted to be, even though I was very smart. , but adversity is within the person, but not society. GORAJEC: you’ve already talked a little about your relationship with the civil rights movement, but have you or somebody you know ever been personally affected by the time period as a whole? AKKER: During the early seventies, when we had some real racial tensions, it was after the Civil Rights Movement, after Martin Luther King was assassinated, we still had some real racial tensions here in Muskegon. My brother in law was driving home from a place on Wood Street where he worked, and he Page 4 �had his window open, and he drove down Jackson Avenue, and at the time it was a stereotypical area where people of my race would fear because there were a lot of uprisings against whites. But, his car window was open and somebody threw a pop bottle at him, and cut his face all the way down where he had to have stitches, and to this day my, brother in law can’t even talk to me without having some type of racial slur, even though I’ve talked and talked and talked to him that that was an isolated incident. Things have changed, we have all changed, no matter what race we are, but that has continuously stayed with him. And other than that, the riots I have countered growing up, I was actually in Chicago in April 1968 when King was assassinated, and there were riots all over the streets, and we were shocked. We didn’t know what to do. We were actually escorted out of Chicago to get safely on the highway because of total chaos going on in the city. And that was a scary thing for somebody who was 14 years old. GORAJEC: Do you personally have any civil rights heroes? AKKER: Martin Luther King. , Civil Rights in America, or the world? Because Nelson Mandela is one of my heroes and will always be one for standing up and going to jail. I mean, Martin Luther King went to jail too, but not for 27 years. , to stand up against a party, to stand up against your government and become president of your government is just something that is amazing to me. , a person like a Malcolm X, who takes the “X” as his last name because he has a “slave name”, you know, he has a “name of his master”, as you want to say or speak about it, and even though he was militant, even though he really reacted militantly against so many governmental programs and people, he came to terms with himself. He did convert to Islam, he did become a peaceful person who on his pilgrimage really realized what his heart needed to be, and that really caused his death and caused his people to t against him. John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, you know, there are people all through my growing up years that I’m going to say are probably heroes of mine, because they all had something to do. Even President Johnson people don’t realize how impassioned he was upon civil rights. GORAJEC: Is there any reason why they are significant to you personally or do you just admire them? AKKER: They’re significant because I lived it, and because I saw and followed what they did all throughout my life. My parents, even though there were racial tensions within my family, my parents were very politically in tune with things, and made sure we knew what was going on in the world. I sometimes think that people had distorted images or thoughts or understanding of what was going on, and I think that because my parents were the way they were, I had more of an insight. GORAJEC: Okay, well moving on to your career as a teacher, can you tell me about the predominate background of your students at Muskegon High School? AKKER: Muskegon is an intercity, urban school, and we do say “intercity, urban” because we do include Lakeside and do include Glenside, and those are areas that wealthier (whether that’s good or bad), and that includes outlying areas: the “intercity” of Muskegon. Muskegon has changed drastically since I was a child. There’s a tremendous amount of poverty and, people who aren’t in poverty don’t understand how poverty works, and so the values of my “poverished students” are different from the people in my class, middle class lower middle class, whatever. That being said, the backgrounds of my students fall into several different categories with poverished, to the people whose parents work, to the people who might have a lawyer, doctor, or teacher or professor as a parent. That’s the vast difference when you look at the breakdown of test scores for our school. We are still considered an urban school, and that works against us for testing, unfortunately. Page 5 �GORAJEC: Do you think that.., because the background of the students is so diverse, do you think that has any effect on the school as a whole? AKKER: I think it makes it better. I think it makes everyone understand each other. I mean, I do see pockets of racism. I can’t help it. I can go down to the cafeteria and see an all white table, and an all African American table, and all Hispanic table. But, then I also see an all football team player table, and an all baseball team player table. I would like to see more mix in that. Then, in my classes I don’t, and maybe I’m blind to it, but I don’t see a lot of racism. I see a lot of people working together. GORAJEC: Do you that because students are more willing to mix together in the classroom does that make you feel better? AKKER: It makes me feel better about the fact that my school is probably one of all the schools in the Muskegon country area, my school is most diverse, and I say that because we do have a percentage of African American, a percentage of Hispanic, and a percentage of white. The percentage of African American is higher than white or Hispanic, but it’s not as high as it is in our other schools, and the white population is not as high as it is in other schools. Which, I think helps us become little more diverse, and have more understating of the world around us. GORAJEC: In your career as a teacher have you ever had any memorable instance where one of your students has been discrimination against or faced adversity? AKKER: Yeah, probably too many to come up with right at this moment, and I can’t even think of one specific reason or adverse condition. I’ve had students who are homeless, I’ve had students come to me and say “I don’t have a clean pair of clothes, and people are going to laugh at me cause I’m going to start to smell”. I’ve had students whose parents have just up and left, and they’ve stayed there behind, and that to me is the ultimate in adversity because you’re trying to handle school, and trying to handle whatever extracurricular activities you have, as well as trying to find a home. GORAJEC: Do you think that because you have seen adversity in that way you feel more connected with your students? AKKER: Oh yeah. I’ve heard from people who have been with other teachers from other school districts who look at us and say “How do you do what you do? You go to school, you stay all day, you give kids your phone numbers, you give kids rides home, you do this, you do that. How can you have that kind of connection?” Well, because they don’t have that connection. GORAJEC: So as teacher, do you think that it is important to have that relationship with your student? AKKER: Absolutely, I want my students to trust me. I want my students, if they have any problems, to feel comfortable enough to come talk to me. Whether they tell me their problem or they say “I need help”. I need to know that so that I can point them in the right direction. I think it’s the function of any teacher, but you find it more with urban sprawl. GORAJEC: Have you ever seen the diversity in Muskegon affect the education of the students in any way? Page 6 �AKKER: Ah, yeah. I don’t see that it affects the students in what we teach them, I mean, at this point. What it does, what we’re affected by now is our government interceding and saying “Oh, by the way, your test scores are low; you are going to be evaluated lower. If your test scores are low we are not going to give you as much money,” and everything is dealing with test scores, and no one is looking at the family makeup, no one is looking at the support that our students have, besides the teachers or in school. They’re only looking at “This is the makeup of your test scores,” and instead of dealing with the real problem, which is probably the breakdown of the family, maybe no parental supervision because mom is working five jobs or dad is maybe out of the picture or in prison. I mean, those things happen. And our government just looks at what the teachers do based on test scores. Then I see, as racism or something that is radically wrong with our system, because if you look at the test scores of a suburban school, and I use Mona Shores because my children graduated from Mona Shores, (like that nor not), if you look at the test scores at Mona Shores they’re higher compared to a little bit of a more diverse school. But, many of those kids come from families where their parents are college-educated and employed. Our students are not necessarily from parents like that, or houses like that or homes, you name it. And so because my children, and I can only speak for my children alone, came from a home with two college graduates, they were made to do their homework, they were . . .they traveled everywhere, they saw everything. They had more of a connection to the world than maybe my students have, who have maybe not even seen the shores of Lake Michigan and they live in Muskegon. GORAJEC: Do you think that limits the students in a way? AKKER: I think it limits, our ability to teach the students the best we can because we continually teach to the test because we have to get our students up to the levels that will pass the test in order to become proficient with anything. We are judged by the progress, and if we do not make that a priority, we will not get the funding that we need. And this is happening at Muskegon Heights, which is just a total travesty for the kids there. GORAJEC: Can you tell me a little bit about what’s happening at Muskegon Heights? I haven’t heard anything about that. AKKER: Muskegon Heights has been taken over. , it’s very much in debt and that isn’t necessarily the government’s fault. , but test scores are low. The teachers are doing the best they can. But they have some major problems with funding. They can’t pay teachers and possibly, well intermediate has taken over as far as a superintendent and they are looking at other options. So they do not know what is going on right now. GORAJEC: Do you think that, as a whole, the STMRS community gained a lot from the civil rights struggle, regarding the community makeup and the students and parents? AKKER: That’s a hard one because I think that there has been a major amount of progress in some areas, and in other areas there wasn’t progress at all. , just judging by the people that I’ve known all my life, that may be who I went to school with or who I go to church with, and they are not necessarily as whole on understanding diversity as I am because of whatever they do in this world. They’re not necessarily teachers. And they have some real prejudices set up, and I think that that affects the diversity in the community. GORAJEC: Do you think that, currently, there are issues in Muskegon that need civil rights advocacy? Page 7 �AKKER: Well, yeah because civil rights expand to so much more than things just based on race. There’s gender, there’s disabilities, there’s employment. Who will get the best job? Who will go into a restaurant? Who will be hired first at a job? You know, would it be a white person or would it be a person that is African American or Hispanic? I still can’t solve our problems within our society. But I also think that the knowledge that people need is lacking, because knowledge gives us power. And if we don’t understand and have knowledge of people in general and how they work, they’ll never be fixed. GORAJEC: Is there anything else that you would like to add? AKKER: You know, it’s really funny because you are asking pointed questions that I am all of a sudden going “Huh! I don’t know”. , through all my life I’ve seen definite change. I don’t think that I’ve really emphasized how much change that I’ve seen in Muskegon and in Muskegon High School. When I was a student coming to classes here at Muskegon High School, my mother taught here. The classes were tracked. And so, when you have tracked classes you have people who said quote, unquote “These are the smarter kids.” And well, those classes were predominantly white. “And these are the kids that are struggling,” and those classes were predominantly made up of minorities, at the time mostly African American and possibly some Hispanic. My mother had that impression. When I first started teaching here, she would say “Do you have any honors classes, or all of your classes black?” And I’d look at her and go (makes face) “Ahhh, my classes have all colors in them.” Because my mother was still of that mindset. She was a great teacher, but she was still of that mindset that’s how you are tracking classes. And that doesn’t say to me that all white kids are going to be successful, and all classes with kids of different ethnicities, or minorities, aren’t. Because that’s not true. But I still think that people have that little bit of mindset, and so we don’t track classes other than International Baccalaureate or obviously AP. GORAJEC: Is there anything else about Muskegon as a whole that you’d like to mention? AKKER: Well, it’s changed. The demographics of Muskegon have changed drastically. First of all, you have a downtown section that has stores that people that live in Muskegon can go to, and then you tear it down and you put the mall out in Fruitport. Which is ridiculous. I mean, we all go to the mall, we all love the mall, but then the people who live in poverty in the center of Muskegon have no place to go. So what do we do? We have the city founders coming in, or the city government come in, and say ‘let’s build up Muskegon!’ So you put all these expensive shops in downtown Muskegon, bordering on the demographics of the impoverished of Muskegon, so the poor still can’t go buy anything. And then the couple places that you have that may be inviting to people who are of maybe a lower class, those are (post dp?). And so, that’s what I see with the change in Muskegon. When I grew up we had a downtown. I grew up and I walked right down to Apple Avenue down to stores downtown. I think driving in downtown Muskegon is beautiful, but it does not lend itself to helping those, who surround that area, who have no place to go. GORAJEC: Is there anything else? AKKER: You know, it’s really hard for me to talk about because there’s been so much change and I don’t know where to begin to have a timeline of the change. Great, from the time I was a little girl to the time I live now, I have been involved with Muskegon Public Schools in one way or another. My parents graduated from here in 1935. So I have seen the change, not that I was alive in 1935, but I’ve seen the change in my lifetime. Yet, it has been a gradual change and I don’t see it as drastically as some of the other teachers would say ‘Well, I remember 15 or so years ago when my classes weren’t like they are Page 8 �today,” and they probably weren’t, but it’s been a gradual change for me. And so, I don’t see that as a negative. I see that as part of my job. GORAJEC: Is there anything else that you would like to add? AKKER: You know, I am a child of the civil rights age. I am a child of watching changes, going through the Cold War; I am a Cold War child. I’ve seen ideologies that include the fear of communism. I’ve seen drills that we had in school because we were going to be bombed. And I think that all played into almost making, at least in the sixties, making civil rights more of a minor problem. And it was really a major problem. And I think that we have already seen politicians correct that in some ways. I mean my goodness, in 2008 we elected an African American as president. Never, in my lifetime, did I think that I’d ever see that GORAJEC: Okay, well, thank you so much for your time! AKKER: Thanks END OF INTERVIEW Page 9 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4cad70488270817fd77546c5afc1a551.mp3 a73af457cd5adfa9fb8ccbba13db29ce Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Akker_Arlene Title A name given to the resource Arlene Akker audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Akker, Arlene Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gorajec, Kelly Bailey, L. Harter, B. Huyser, Z. Description An account of the resource Arlene Akker is a teacher at Muskegon High school. She was born and raised in Muskegon Heights. She discusses racism and diversity growing up in Muskegon Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Racism Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f28159584cc73be7011c640549a7ebcc.pdf f66a31314adabbfe77a21d198578a238 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Bryce Kyle Interviewers: Melanie Shell-Weiss Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/11/2011 Runtime: 00:06:26 Biography and Description Bryce Kyle sings a song entitled “The Mankind of Struggle.” He is accompanied by guitar. Transcript 1910 to 1930 Two million black men moved to the city Red yellow black and white, that there’s a difference is histories great plight Ida Mae Brandon’s great fight, which man to pick, man their all alright Robert Joseph Pershing, served his country, yeah alright -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me The orchard fields boxed up all nice and tight, they too will go on the great flight Page 1 �Give me a hog and give me some land sir, I’d ask for dignity but looks like you got none to spare Simmons girl tell me what do you see, the price for freedom, I hear it’s a high fee Butler girl damn you have quite the voice, take it to Washington, let them hear you rejoice -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me A man with a dream speaks out into the crowd, shots fired I suppose he was to proud They know what to do when we get out of place, there’s no room for us in their idea of grace Malcolm X I hear you my good sir, scream loudly and you might get some to care Speak boldly and then you’ll see, they’ll take a shotgun to end your cry and plea -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me Page 2 �LORD you are my shepherd and you lead me right Restoreth my soul LORD in you I take flight Give me your righteousness O’ I know you care I pray your equity sets us in all that’s fair Restore the innocent God I know your love Let your power come, Lord Jesus I need you now Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. END OF INTERVIEW Page 3 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6cc09ad654c6086a5016f34007113070.mp3 d30bda494e61e0258988cee8ec15ecea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Kyle_Bryce Title A name given to the resource Mankind of Struggle, The Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bryce Kyle Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melanie Shell-Weiss Description An account of the resource Bryce Kyle sings a song entitled "The Mankind of Struggle." He is accompanied by guitar. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/882edba04cf82be7861f8dc2046c7293.pdf fb332636d8bcdc25170e1ad5e7d8f3da PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Steeve Buckridge Interviewers: Kevin Fraser, Erica Judd and Travis Pemberton Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/27/2011 Biography and Description Steeve Buckridge was born in Kingston, Jamaica. He became a professor at Grand Valley State University several years ago. He is an Associate Professor of African and Caribbean History and Associate Faculty in African and African American Studies. Also this year he became GVSU’s Director of Area Studies. In 2004, he published his first novel, The Language of Dress: Resistance and Accommodation in Jamaica, 1780-1890. This book discusses how freed and enslaved women used their fashion and style of dress as a symbol of resistance to slavery and accommodation to white culture in pre- and post- emancipation society. He discusses the differences between discrimination in Jamaica and discrimination in Grand Rapids and some of his experiences with it. Transcript JUDD: To start out, just want some basic information like, just something about yourself; where you were born, what your life was like growing up BUCKRIDGE: Hmm, alright so JUDD: Full name and everything BUCKRIDGE: (Heavy accent) My name is Steeve Buckridge, I never reveal my middle name so sorry JUDD: (slight laughter) That’s alright BUCKRIDGE: And I was born in Kingston, Jamaica. Andgrew up in Jamaica. At age eleven I went to boarding school in the center of the island in a place called Mandeval up in the mountains. It was a very beautiful school; an old English school and I liked it there and I would go home on holidays and weekends. And my childhood in Jamaica was idealic it was fun it was great.holidays, travelling, visiting family; hmmm I was not from a poor home so Iwas very fortunate that my parents provided for us. And I did well in school, I was an A student and enjoyed my school years and then studying in Jamaica is, we follow the British system at least in those days, so education was and still is very very rigid, very hierarchical,its very competitive and then I find that European people tend to take education for granted JUDD: (supportive) Right Page 1 �BUCKRIDGE: It’s not like that in all the places, so to get into high school you had to pass an exam, it was a government exam. When you get into high school then they streamline you, the brightest students and in the brightest are given a different set of courses then those who are not too bright. and then I did all of that and then up to fifth form, did my O levels, passed my O levels; in high school these are government exams.and O levels are important because they determine if you can get a job or not. If you fail your O levels you can’t get a job you have to do them over. It’s not like here where you just get a diploma from school it doesn’t work like that JUDD: (laughter) Right BUCKRIDGE: For us you must pass certain subjects for you to get a job, math and English is usually required and after you pass those then you can apply for a job and if you want to go on to university then you have to apply for A levels, which is like thirteenth and fourteenth grade which you guys don’t have in this country JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: Or twelfth and thirteenth grade something like that. So in that level you’re doing pre university courses and you spend two years in that program in high school and so when I was in, it’s called six form, so when I was in six form I did very well I was head of student government, I was also head boy. Head boy is this British concept defined in British schools where there is a head boy and a head girl that’s in charge of the prefects, prefects are those who maintain discipline JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: And so the head boy islike the most, it is considered to be the I don’t know how to describe this because it’s so different then what you have in America JUDD: (laughter) Right BUCKRIDGE: Is the most,ugh, the head boys influential the head boy is important the head boy is someone who’s chosen because of his academic excellence and performance JUDD: So were you chosen? Or nominated? BUCKRIDGE: No you are chosen by the faculty JUDD: Wow BUCKRIDGE: By the student by the faculty by the student, not the student, by the by the school faculty JUDD: (supportive) Okay BUCKRIDGE: So it’s an honor to be a head boy JUDD: (Supportive) Yeah BUCKRIDGE: And so every year there’s a head boy there’s a head girl, and then you have prefects and then you havethe prefects are in charge of discipline within the school and they work closely with the Page 2 �teachers to maintain discipline.and so then in six form you do pre university courses so for us in the British system when you go on to university you only spend three years in university, because you have already done JUDD: Right, your others, got it BUCKRIDGE: Right, in high school, yep. I don’t know what else to tell you; I mean I dabbled a lot as a youngster, my parents believed in taking us travellingI don’t know what else to tell you. JUDD: No that’s okay that’s a lot of good information, so how would you describe your personal identity? It’s kind of a tough question BUCKRIDGE: My personal identity in terms of my race? JUDD: Well just how you would personally describe yourself, like what is, how are you different, yeah I guess your diversity I guess BUCKRIDGE: Well race is structured differently for us so, but in Jamaica most Jamaicans are dark skin or black, and then you have a small percentage which are my color which you would call, in the Caribbean they would call it just brown skin or light skin, or Mulattos. I consider myself first and foremost to be a Jamaican JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: Because for us nationality is more important, race is secondary JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: So I’m Jamaican, I’m preferred to be Jamaicanmy father was English, my mother is Jamaican mixed with dark skin. And as a child growing up diversity was an integral part of my life I mean as a child I was surrounded by Indians from India, my father’s best friend was from India, his family was from India so as a child I was already familiar with Hindu rituals and Hindu holidays. For instance right now it’s Diwali, the festival of lights has been celebrated by Indians and that’s a major festival, it’s the whole notion of when good triumphs over evil. my grandmother’s first husband was Chinese; there is a Chinese community in Jamaica like an Indian community. So my grandmother’s first husband was Chinese and he died while on a journey back to Hong Kong. So after he died she had her first set of kids with him and sent them to Hong Kong to grow up, so they were raised in China. So again as a youngster; and then she met my grandfather Buckridge and then got married a second time, so as a child I had Chinese uncles who spoke Chinese their marriages were pre-arranged JUDD: Is your grandmother Jamaican then? BUCKRIDGE: My grandmother is of English descent JUDD: Oh okay yeah BUCKRIDGE: Jamaican but of English descent Page 3 �JUDD: Okay, okay so you kind of grew up in a diverse area okay well, so was there any time in your life growing up or in adulthood where you could of felt mistreated because of BUCKRIDGE: My race? JUDD: Yeah BUCKRIDGE: No JUDD: No? Hmm BUCKRIDGE: In fact, in the Jamaican context racial lines also follow class lines, so you find that people who are lighter in complexion like I am would be considered as upper class so I never had those issues. I did not understand racism until I came into this country JUDD: When did you come to America? BUCKRIDGE: Officially I don’t know, well I used to travel back and forth as a youngster but officially moved here in the early eighty’s JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: Eighty six I think somewhere in there. Now that doesn’t mean we don’t have racism in Jamaica and the Caribbean we do but it’s, as I said race is defined as differently for us JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: But again, you see in the Caribbean contextfor instance in Jamaica we only have very few numbers, very few numbers of white Jamaicans so the numbers too small to have an economic impact JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: So the society overall is dominated by people who are light skinned or brown skinned and they make up about I don’t know maybe twelve percent of the population, maybe less. The vast majority of Jamaicans are black or dark skinned. JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: So in my country I would not be classified as black JUDD: Oh okay, so when you moved here did it feel, did people treat you differently, did it feel harder? BUCKRIDGE: No not really because they see me more as I don’t know JUDD: Did you come here as a professor? BUCKRIDGE: Mmn, I came here I studied here I did some of my studies here. But no I it was more out of curiosity JUDD: Mhmm Page 4 �BUCKRIDGE: Because I had an accent, foreigner, I didn’t have the kinds of experiences that African Americans had in this country and what they endured, that’s not a part of my reality, I didn’t come from a family where I saw that sort of thing. Now maybe my mother’s generation they would of encountered racism in the colonial days JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: But in terms of my generation, no I didn’t have those problems. But when I came to the US I clearly saw racism, not necessarily happening to me but to my friends, colleagues. I have been racially profiled; in airports I have been harassed JUDD: Oh right BUCKRIDGE: Because people assume that I’m Middle Eastern which doesn’t make sense to me but that has happened to me yes. JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And that has happened to me right here in Grand Rapids where I have been harassed because they thought I was from Egypt or somewhere. But in my country, no I never had that, it was never an issue for me. JUDD: Okay, so I know I does kind of seem as you grew up as the higher or more comfortable or more acceptable over there which is good so it feels like kind of were more racially more just judge people a lot over here. And I kind of see that a lot from people who have moved from like where you’ve come from and like I know I have actually met a professor who is from South Africa and he came here and he said he was treated a lot differently now. Okay so when you have seen people who are discriminated because of the difference, how does that affect you? BUCKRIDGE: Of course, because I think it’s wrong, it’s wrong and if there’s a situation that I can step in to correct the wrong I will I see it with my students its wrong and I believe that someone should stand up for their rights and if you see other people being abused you should step up to the plate and do something about it JUDD: Is there an actual experience you can remember that you’re comfortable sharing? BUCKRIDGE:mmm JUDD: Put you on the spot BUCKRIDGE: No, I just can’t think of anything off the top of my head why yes I have had friends who have applied for jobs who were African American who were denied, or try to rent a place and were denied. JUDD: Yeah BUCKRIDGE: With the opportunity to rent but then I would go there and ask and I would be offered the place. Page 5 �JUDD: Okay, so it’s not so much for you as it is for the people you’ve seen BUCKRIDGE: Right, because right yeah so JUDD: Do you think it’s because they have darker skin then? BUCKRIDGE: In some cases I think so and some cases it’s because they’re African American JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: I am sort of this exotic person from Jamaica JUDD: (laughter) They are interested in you! BUCKRIDGE: Yes, from Jamaica I don’t have the same history and the same baggage some would say. JUDD: Right, right well that’s good,have you ever seen any violent treatment to people who have you ever witnessed or been a part of or something like that BUCKRIDGE: (negative response) Nmmnn Nmmnnn well not in this country, yeah but no, no JUDD: In your country have you? BUCKRIDGE: Well no I have seen violent situations in terms of civil unresting and political elections, and Jamaica has a history of having political turmoil. So I’ve seen people attacked but that’s because of their views or their ideological stands yeahnot because of their skin color. But we do have racism in the Caribbean, in fact it is badh it is bad because you have you see in my culture there is this belief that, that that if you want to make it in society you have to have brown complexion. So now you find these dark skinned people who are bleaching, bleaching has become popular with the youngsters and women, and you can tell if you go to public setting you can see that they have been bleaching because from here down its light and from the neck down it’s much darker. so bleaching has become a problemin many areas in the Caribbean in terms of people being attacked because of their race no. What you do find in Jamaica is that my culture is very, very homophobic. And people will be murdered for being gay and I have lost three friends who were murdered because they were homosexuals. So Jamaican society is very, very homophobic and that’s because of theh the hate rhetoric that’s spoken in the churches because in Jamaica, Jamaica is considered to be one of the most homophobic places in the Caribbean. So what you find happening is that the church, we do not have the separation of church and state, so you find that there is the Christianity is the official religion and Church of England is the official church. But the Evangelical Churches are the ones that are very dominant and so they are the ones that are sort of a hate speech about homosexuality and so forth and so there you will find people who have been murdered or have been killed for just being gay JUDD: Well, and that’s a I mean a big diversity issue here too, I mean everywhere really I feel like BUCKRIDGE: Yeah but here, yeah that’s right I mean there are people, Mathew Shepard was murdered for being gay. So people in this country have been murdered but we must also remember why that’s the case, you gay people in this country do have a public space Page 6 �JUDD: Yeah definitely BUCKRIDGE: In the Caribbean it’s not like that I mean in Jamaica its illegal, it’s ten years in prison met with hard labor JUDD: Oh my goodness BUCKRIDGE: Right, and normally the laws are not tested because if they catch you, nine out of the ten times they try to kill you, you have street justice. Homosexuality is viewed as an abomination and it is not socially accepted in Jamaican society. Now if you are elite and are gay then you can easily get away and always pay your way through the system but for poor young men it is horrifying because they are the ones who usually get beaten up sometimes they are killed. And once in a while you have some elite person who is killed for either for their activism or they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. And then young women who are alleged to be gay they’re usually raped alright because there is this notion that if they are raped then that will get them to JUDD: To forget it or kind of change back? BUCKRIDGE: Right, to change to dating men or to being with men, so Jamaican society is very homophobic, and you have for instance Jamaica, the Bahamas, St Vincent, the Guanines (unclear), all the English speaking Caribbean countries are very homophobic because they have those old British codes on their law books which decrees that homosexuality is illegal. And after homosexuality was made legal in England Britain tried to pressure their former colonies in the Caribbean to do the same, some of them eased up on the restrictions but Jamaica has refused, Jamaica is an independent nation so England can no longer tell us what to do, even though the Queen of England is head of statebut yeah but that is one of the major, major problems in terms of diversity issues JUDD: Well that’s a big discriminant issue too and how is that like, obviously its affected you personally because you said you lost three friends, so I mean that’s a big issue BUCKRIDGE: Right JUDD: It’s not just race BUCKRIDGE: Right but the whole though is that you’ll find that people will cover it up with a mass or the church and religion, and you have ministers who are preaching, there is a minister in Jamaica his name is Blair he’s advocating for public floggings of homosexualsso there is so in many quarters there’s no sympathy because it’s seen as immoral, as wrong, because of the strong religious flavor JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: Because again we do not have the separation of church and state and the biros association of Jamaica and the Jamaican government has made it very clear that they will never amend the constitution to make gay marriage legal or homosexuality legal in Jamaica JUDD: So growing up, where you familiar with that? Or was it more when you got older that you kind of understood Page 7 �BUCKRIDGE: When I was a child I knew people that were gay but I never really understood what it meant until as I got older JUDD: And you started to see it more? BUCKRIDGE: Well no, when I left Jamaica I started to pertuanate and started to wonder oh so that’s why so and so wasn’t married and why all the women and people would gossip and say things JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: But no it is bad, tourists going to Jamaica usually are warned and there is a travel ban for gay people travelling to Jamaica like Jamaica is a beautiful place but it’s not a friendly place for gay people, if your white and you’re going as a gay couple you are okay as long as you don’t show public affection being kissy kissy lovey dovey in public JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: That’s a no no JUDD: Well and still you’re not able to express how you really are feeling so it’s still its discriminative BUCKRIDGE: Right of course, but Jamaicans would consider it offensive they would see it as an insult to the culture JUDD: Right, so your personal views are different then the way that the views of the religion in Jamaica BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: So have you always, was your family always, is your family religious? BUCKRIDGE: Many of them yes, yeah, but again going back to what I said earlier I grew up with a lot of diversity JUDD: Right, true BUCKRIDGE: My upbringing was very different JUDD: Mhm BUCKRIDGE: So I was always surrounded by people in different cultures and so forth, and my family was in the fashion business so I knew people in the art world and in the art community, so I knew gay people from an early age JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: But my parents always taught us to be accepting of everyone, to be appreciative, to be open, to be tolerant, to be welcoming. And so that was the home I grew up in but that’s not the large Jamaican society JUDD: Right, Page 8 �BUCKRIDGE: You weren’t expecting that were you JUDD: (laughter) No, honestly I didn’t even know what to expect coming here I’ve never done one of these before BUCKRIDGE: And now you have a lot of information JUDD: Well, I do and that’s I mean, an oral history really though all she wants is just kind of basic information BUCKRIDGE: Yeahh JUDD: Which is good I’m glad that I didn’t know what to expect,okay well we kind of covered some of that. So actually, I heard you wrote a book BUCKRIDGE: Yes JUDD: The guy next door was telling me, he showed me your book too BUCKRIDGE: Oh okay JUDD: Do you want to tell me about that? BUCKRIDGE: Sure, the next one is coming out soon, what do you want to know about it? JUDD: Anything, tell me about it, I’ve never heard anything about it I just found out today you’ve wrote a book BUCKRIDGE: Oh that book is titled the Language Address and it’s about the African cultural characteristics in clothing that were brought to the Caribbean by African slaves. And so I basically analyzed slave clothing, and I try to figure out why they dress the way they did and the policy surrounding clothing during the days of slavery. and I got involved in it becauseI’ve always loved clothing and fashion, my father was a tailor, and my father studied at FIT in New York. And my mother was a dress maker and she sewed as a hobby, she’s a nurse by profession and so clothing was what I JUDD: Kind of what you were used to BUCKRIDGE: Right I grew up with it as a child, so I worked inin the fashion business for a while; I had my first modeling gig when I was sixteen JUDD: Oh you modeled? BUCKRIDGE: here, this photograph was, this is a newspaper article that they did on me, so this is when oh this says seventeen, I think it was maybe sixteen, I did photo shoots for the Jamaica Tourist Board. Then then I gave up modeling because I didn’t really like it JUDD: No? Page 9 �BUCKRIDGE: No I didn’t like it and then much, years later I got into the fashion business and started to work as an illustrator. So I would illustrate, draw, and then I left the industrywhile I was illustrating I worked for several fashion houses and thenI let’s see I had, I would design clothes for friends and so forth. Had some famous people wear some of my outfits because (unclear) Miss World, 1987 wore a gown that I designed,Miss Venezuela, 1989 also wore one of my outfits. But it was a long time ago I mean ages ago JUDD: Woww BUCKRIDGE: And then I gave that up, and then I decided to pursue academia but before that I was also working, I worked in hospitality I worked in hotels while I was going to school. And then I decided I wanted to do my doctorate and when I decided on that I wanted to combine my love of fashion with my PHD. So my studies, my doctorate is actually in, it’s in African history but my research is on fashion it’s on clothing JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: So even though I’m no longer in the industry I am still its still part of me in a way JUDD: Still associated with it, which I kind of cool because you’re kind of keeping a grip on your past which is cool BUCKRIDGE: And so my interest in diversity and cultures and clothing from around the world, this is one of the things that propelled me to travel a lot and to write and to be fascinated with diversity, I think diversity is so important to me I think its diversity that keeps the world going. I think diversity is essential for us to learn about each other, I think diversity is key to understanding who we areI would not want to live in a world where everyone thinks the same, looks the same, has the same beliefs, dresses the same can you imagine how boring that world would be JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: If you and I had the same Ideas, we think the same way JUDD: We wouldn’t need to do this interview BUCKRIDGE: Your parents think the same way, everybody felt and thought and looked the same, wouldn’t that be crazy JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: I wouldn’t want to be in that world JUDD: No I agree, is that kind of why you were interested in fashion you think? Because of, or maybe it was fashion that kind of shaped the way you think because it’s so unique BUCKRIDGE: I think fashion shaped the way I think and carry myself but also it’s an intrigal part of my culture, Jamaicans are fascinated with clothing and so as a child I saw that, we have rituals surrounding Page 10 �clothing, rituals about certain ways that you should dress all of those things are taken seriously in my culture JUDD: Woww BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: When was this book published? BUCKRIDGE: I don’t know 2005 I guess, somewhere in there and then the next one will be out shortly JUDD: What’s the next one, is it about the same kind of things? BUCKRIDGE: It’s about clothing but it’s a different, it’s looking at bark cloth or textiles made from the barks of trees and how how it would, these bark textiles are used to make sophisticated outfits JUDD: And do what you’re naming it or the title of your books going to be BUCKRIDGE: the next one, it’s titledthe making of African bark cloth, the making of African bark cloth in the Caribbean JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And I look at three countries, Jamaica, Cuba, and Haiti JUDD: Good thing nobody has to read my hand writing but me because I don’t know if that would be possible, okay,well that’s really cool. So have you always like wanted to write I guess is that kind of, have you always been interested in it, did you know that you were going to end up writing a book or is this kind of just BUCKRIDGE: Hmm I think at some point, in time I’m hoping to do some short stories and I’m thinking of writing some other things yeah JUDD: All to do with clothing and stuff BUCKRIDGE: Maybe yeah, or other things, we’ll see I haven’t decided yet JUDD: Yeah well that’s cool BUCKRIDGE: I’m working on a memoir JUDD: Really? BUCKRIDGE: Yeah, so we’ll see how that goes. It’s about more of my travels in Africa, that’s what it’s about JUDD: Okay, how many times have you been, or is it too many to South Africa BUCKRIDGE: No, I’ve been to about twenty five countries in Africa JUDD: Ohh Page 11 �BUCKRIDGE: And worldwide about seventy two countries JUDD: Wow, did you always travel to different countries when you were growing up; you said your parents liked to travel BUCKRIDGE: As a youngster yes, by the time I was what, eighteen, somewhere in there I had seen most of the Caribbean but a lot of my travelling was done after because I’ve always had this desire to see what’s beyond the ocean you’re looking out at the horizon and saying what is out there JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: And so the moment I could travel on my own I did, I mean as a child I would come for holidays to the US and other places but travelling is my passion it’s how you learn it’s how you learn about cultures and I try never to travel as a tourist I try to travel as an adventurer who tries to immerse oneself in the local cultures. Because when you travel as a tourist you’ll always be an outsider JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: You’ll always be on the periphery JUDD: Okay from growing up has there been any, sorry were kind of jumping backwards now but has there been any changes in like, I guess I’m not going to go with diverse race wise but like with homosexuality, has that changed at all over time has that become more lenient as you were living there or less lenient or, in Jamaica with diversity or discrimination against homosexuality because that’s kind of a big thing BUCKRIDGE: Okay no people in, Jamaicans celebrate diversity JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And they love diversity, we have Chinese in Jamaica, we have Indians JUDD: With race, so they are very racially diverse BUCKRIDGE: Right, diverse, our motto is out of many one people JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: Which reflects the blending and the mixture and we had people, we have Syrians who were brought in we have Lebanese we have Chinese we have Indians but the bulk of Jamaicans are of African descent. We also have people of English descent of Irish descent and Scottish descent but most Jamaicans are black, of African descent. and then you haveh, and then you have this group of people who are brown skin or browning as that’s what they’re calling it’s a term now in popular culture. But when it comes on to sexuality it’s a different thing JUDD: Okay so is it just because of the church or BUCKRIDGE: Yes Page 12 �JUDD: Okay so it’s the religion, so that’s never changed over time it’s always just been BUCKRIDGE: Some of it has gotten worse JUDD: Oh it has gotten worse BUCKRIDGE: But racial diversity is not, is something that’s celebrated; there has never been that problem in Jamaica where so well maybe in the colonial days but not now. Jamaica when it comes to racial diversity is very welcoming and tolerant, sexual diversity, that’s not the case JUDD: Mkay, so what colleges did you attend to, here and there BUCKRIDGE: in terms of studying or teaching at? JUDD: Both BUCKRIDGE: Okay,I did my undergrad and master’s degree in Miami, University of Miami. My doctorate, I spent a year in England at Oxford and then I did my PHD at the Ohio State University in Ohio, Columbus Ohio. THE Ohio State JUDD: (laughter) Oh no BUCKRIDGE: I know you’re a Michigan fan ehh JUDD: (laughter) I am Michigan fan BUCKRIDGE: Sorry JUDD: (laughter) That’s alright, I have Ohio State friends so I’m neutral BUCKRIDGE: Good JUDD: and then how did you end up here? BUCKRIDGE: My job, I’ve, people always ask me that because I’ve lived in so many places and travelled a lot I lived in several countries. But my job, the university recruited me to come hereI love my job I love my students I love being at Grand Valley, I have problems with Grand Rapids JUDD: With? BUCKRIDGE: The city, I haven’t quite connected with it so I leave regularly JUDD: How often? BUCKRIDGE: Of often as I can JUDD: For breaks and BUCKRIDGE: Yeah holidays, summers, long weekends JUDD: What is it about Grand Rapids that Page 13 �BUCKRIDGE: I don’t know, there’s just no sense of belonging JUDD: Oh yeah? BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: Well I’m not used to this city, so it’s been kind of a new step for me too but I mean I guess you’ve been everywhere so BUCKRIDGE: Yeah there’s no sense of belonging for me, I still feel as an outsider, I haven’t been here all these years, so I don’t have a house here I refuse to buy anything here JUDD: Really? Where do you stay? BUCKRIDGE: Well I have an apartment here but my place is in Miami JUDD: Ohh BUCKRIDGE: This is not my home, this is where I work, home is Miami and Jamaica is home home. So if I say I’m going home it means I’m going home to Miami, my place is in Miami JUDD: Do you go back to Miami a lot? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm JUDD: Do you go like weekends and stuff? BUCKRIDGE: Sometimes JUDD: Mostly over breaks? BUCKRIDGE: But breaks, and then between like summers I’m in Africa moving around then if I say I’m going home home that’s to Jamaica, like I’m going to Jamaica the end of November JUDD: What’s the occasion? BUCKRIDGE: Just need to get away JUDD: I gotcha BUCKRIDGE: Yeah, I think I’m going for three days JUDD: Wow, that’s a short trip BUCKRIDGE: I know, yeah JUDD: Do your parents still live there then? BUCKRIDGE: My father died when I was sixteen JUDD: Oh I’m sorry Page 14 �BUCKRIDGE: My mother, that’s fine thanks, my mother she lives in Miami, she travels a lot JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And my family is scattered JUDD: Do you have any brothers and sisters? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm, there’s seven of us and they’re all in different countries JUDD: Really? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm JUDD: Where are they? BUCKRIDGE: England, Canada, one just came back from Japan he’s currently in in what is it Atlanta. I forget, they’re always on the go, Jamaica I don’t have much family left in Jamaica we still have property there but not JUDD: Okay so do you go back to your property or do you stay with friends or BUCKRIDGE: When I’m in Jamaica? JUDD: When you go to Jamaica BUCKRIDGE: No I stay with family JUDD: Oh okay BUCKRIDGE: The few family I have left, I have an aunt there and some cousins, that’s about it JUDD: So tell me about your siblings BUCKRIDGE: In terms of what they’re doing? JUDD: Yeah, or what your home life was like growing up with them, were you close with them BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm, were a close knit family, we were very very close, extremely close, we all get along well we try to get together as often as we can, doesn’t always work. My niece got married recently and we were all at her wedding, see that photograph over there the young lady in the green to the right JUDD: Oh yeahhh BUCKRIDGE: She just got married, she married to a Nigerian and that was the wedding and she just changed over into African dress, she lives in London. My brother is in England so that was the first in a long time that we all got together because we were all at the wedding JUDD: When was that? BUCKRIDGE: This was this summer,in June, June 25thso I don’t know what to tell you um Page 15 �JUDD: Well how many sisters and brothers? BUCKRIDGE: Okay, four boys including myself, and three girls JUDD: Where do you stand in that? BUCKRIDGE: I’m in the middle JUDD: Okay, number? What number are you BUCKRIDGE:h fourth JUDD: Okay fourth, do you admire your brothers? Were they big role models? Are they older then how does it go? BUCKRIDGE: One younger and then the others are older JUDD: Brother? BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: And then are the girls mostly younger then? BUCKRIDGE: One younger the others are older JUDD: Ohhh okay I guess you are fourth so that makes sense,I don’t know, what did you guys do? BUCKRIDGE: Oh okay,h what do they do? JUDD: Mhm BUCKRIDGE: Career wise? JUDD: Yeah sure BUCKRIDGE: One is a lawyer, he’s a barrister our family has several lawyers. he’s a barrister in England, one is an accountant, a financial accountant he has his own firmhe lives in Palm Beach, I sort of forgot about him JUDD: (laughter) BUCKRIDGE: He lives in Palm Beach but he moves around a lot JUDD: Do you not see him that often? BUCKRIDGE: When I go to Miami he’ll come down,who else, one, two. Oh one I have a brother who’s an air traffic controller but he was in the military with Special Forces JUDD: Is he the only one who was in the military in your family? BUCKRIDGE: My grandfather was in the military Page 16 �JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: He fought in World War 1 JUDD: Oh wow BUCKRIDGE: But beyond that no, no one else. and let’s see, my sisters, I have one who’s a paralegal who’s contemplating law school I have another sister who’s a stay at home wife, she gave up her career when she got married, she got married to a diplomat and so they, she gave up her job to be a diplomat’s wife JUDD: Do they have children? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm, and then I have another sisterh who also gave up her career when she got married. So two sisters are stay at home moms, but they travel a lot. So anyway, one of the things I will share with you isthis past summer my family by my fathers side, they go way back and it’s an old English family in Jamaica and I found out that they had, talking about diversity, that they had slaves through the days of slavery JUDD: Ohh they owned slaves? BUCKRIDGE: Yes, so I come from a family that owns slaves and some members are probably slaves too but it was challenging for me because as a child I heard the stories and I knew the stories, but last summer I actually got the chance to look at the slave registry and so I looked at it, Buckridge, Buckridge, Buckridge all over the place and it really bothered me JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: so that was something I had to deal with in terms of diversity and what does it mean JUDD: What was the race of the slaves that they BUCKRIDGE: Theses were African slaves JUDD: Oh okay so African slaves, and so it bothered you? BUCKRIDGE: Mhm JUDD: Did the rest of your family kind of feel that way? How did your father feel about that too was he BUCKRIDGE: My father was dead by then but I mean these were things that they just all knew but nobody talked about it JUDD: Was he alive when, did he own slaves as a child, was it his family or what BUCKRIDGE: No no no slavery was abolished in 1838 JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: So it’s the history of my family, going way back Page 17 �JUDD: On your dad’s side? BUCKRIDGE: Yes, am I giving you too much? JUDD: (laughter) No no this is a lot of good info! Well is there anything else like about your family life you want to talk about or your personal life, or personal achievements or anything your super proud of or not so proud of? BUCKRIDGE: Super proud of? JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: I don’t know, my travels, my, I don’t know JUDD: (laughter) BUCKRIDGE: What am I proud of? I don’t know JUDD: Well look at your wall BUCKRIDGE: My family, my friends, what’s other things that I’m proud of? My family JUDD: Your very proud of your family BUCKRIDGE: Yes I’m very proud of my family, yeah I don’t know, that’s an interesting question, I’m proud of my family, my travels, the things that I’ve accomplished, my degrees I guess, that I’ve gotten to this far JUDD: Going back toschooling when you were younger, so was it more of a privilege for you to kind of go on and advance farther with your going on to college and stuff was that kind of harder to do for people your age? Was it harder to get into or was it just you are basically judged on how smart you are or how much you apply yourself BUCKRIDGE: Yeah I think so yeah, but again its very competitive, in this country education is seen as kind of a variety people take it for granted, it’s not like that for us and so not everyone goes to college or university. I would like it to be that way but JUDD: So do you like the system here then that it’s better a right BUCKRIDGE: I think both systems have merits and demerits it depends, this system allows you togo at your own pace there are mechanisms in place to help you. When I was growing up that was not the case and in my system that’s not the case, maybe now they do but back then they didn’t have things like writing centers and skills clinics and stuff JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: A few of those things did not exist Page 18 �JUDD: Do you feel like if you grew up here that you would of taken advantage of it more or do you feel like you kind of have that drive BUCKRIDGE: Maybe, maybe not, but that’s hard to tell I think a lot too depends on how you were raised and your upbringing your parentswhere you come fromso I think it all depends and I don’t know if I’m answering your question JUDD: No you are that’s just a vague question BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: So were you close with your mother at all? BUCKRIDGE: Mhm yeah very close JUDD: Very close with all of your family BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm very close, we talk almost, my mother, we talk almost every other day JUDD: Really, aww that’s good, how often, who do you see most out of your family now would you say BUCKRIDGE: I’m here by myself so I don’t see any of them regularly JUDD: Regularly yeah, do they come to see you though BUCKRIDGE: No, they don’t like it here JUDD: (Laughter) BUCKRIDGE: They would rather me come to them JUDD: And I feel that you would rather go to them too wouldn’t you BUCKRIDGE: Yeah, look at the weather it’s too cold JUDD: I know BUCKRIDGE: Jamaica and Miami are so much warmer JUDD: (Laughter) BUCKRIDGE: Wouldn’t you want to go there with a beach and hangout on the beach JUDD: Yeah oh my gosh, the winter I just can’t handle it here BUCKRIDGE: I know it’s gonna be cold, they’re saying it might be worse this year, it’s gonna be a brutal winter I hope not JUDD: Well being here anyways its right next to a lake so it’s already that much worse BUCKRIDGE: Yeah that’s true Page 19 �JUDD: I’m not a huge fan of winter and I’ve been in Michigan my whole life so BUCKRIDGE: There you go JUDD: Yeah so I should be used to it by now, but not my things, usually we actually, growing up we used to take a trip every year in the winter to like some place in the south either Florida or Texas BUCKRIDGE: Well sorry yeah JUDD: I’ve actually never been out of the country, exception Canada but I’ve been to a lot of states BUCKRIDGE: But Canada is good if you’ve been to Canada JUDD: Yeah BUCKRIDGE: Where at Toronto? JUDD: I’ve just I mean I’ve been through it but I’ve been not really too into it so I haven’t really even experienced being out of the country BUCKRIDGE: Oh okay, you just went to the border? JUDD: Well we went through it on our way to Maine from Michigan we were heading up to Maine BUCKRIDGE: Oh that’s the way you go? JUDD: Well we did it was shorter I guess, we drive we never fly I’ve actually never flown so BUCKRIDGE: Are you scared of flying? JUDD: My mother is (Laughter) and we travel together so, actually my first time flying will be this spring break I’m flying to North Carolina so yeah, I’m excited BUCKRIDGE: Are you going by yourself? JUDD: Mhmm my best friend lives in, he goes to school in North Carolina now so I’m gonna go visit him BUCKRIDGE: Good good JUDD: And I’m gonna fly (laughter) BUCKRIDGE: Good for you! JUDD: First time, I know I’m excited though, anyway this is not about me so BUCKRIDGE: (laughter) Well how much longer because I have to get these gradings finished JUDD: Well that’s 45 minutes so that’s close enough right BUCKRIDGE: You tell me! END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bafe4005967eaa4d085cf982174764bf.mp3 b6a27b210042090f37b99ef5181b7dcb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Buckridge_Steeve Title A name given to the resource Steeve Buckridge audio interview and transcription Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Buckridge, Steeve Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fraser, Kevin Judd, Erica Pemberton, Travis Description An account of the resource Steeve Buckridge was born in Kingston, Jamaica. He became a professor at Grand Valley State University several years ago. He is an Associate Professor of African and Caribbean History and Associate Faculty in African and African American Studies. Also this year he became GVSU's Director of Area Studies. In 2004, he published his first novel, The Language of Dress: Resistance and Accommodation in Jamaica, 1780-1890. This book discusses how freed and enslaved women used their fashion and style of dress as a symbol of resistance to slavery and accommodation to white culture in pre- and post- emancipation society. He discusses the differences between discrimination in Jamaica and discrimination in Grand Rapids and some of his experiences with it. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f97d56532bbfd21221c3bad56363ab1.pdf 2265684e24c24e93d72fcd10122331e0 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Judith Claytor Interviewers: Paige Goote Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/22/2011 Biography and Description Judith Claytor was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She graduated from Western Michigan University with a degree in sociology/social work. She discusses the racial and religious differences between living in Grand Rapids and Washington D.C. and attending Western Michigan University. Transcript Paige Goote (GOOTE): My name is Paige Goote and I'm here today interviewing Judith Claytor and its November 22 about 3 o’clock in the afternoon and we are in Grand Rapids Michigan. So today we are here to interview you about your experience with civil rights, in Western Michigan specifically. So I guess we can start with, we can start with some basic information about you. So how old are you? Judith Claytor (CLAYTOR): I am 64. Where do you want me to go with this? GOOTE: What I have here is full name, place and date of birth. CLAYTOR: I am Judith Claytor, I was born in Grand Rapids, in fact was brought home from the hospital to this very house and I... grew up here in Grand Rapids. Went through elementary through high school here. And then went to Western Michigan University and then as an adult moved away and then came back to take care of my...very elderly mother. And have remained here since her death, in 2005. GOOTE: Okay, so you've always been in West Michigan. CLAYTOR: No, I was in Washington D.C. for 30 years. GOOTE: Okay so we went from here to Washington D.C. What did you do in Washington D.C.? CLAYTOR: And I lived in Peru for a couple of years. I married a foreign services officer right out of Western Michigan University and so I was a diplomats wife in Peru for two years, and then we got posted back to D.C. and then... I decided our marriage was not... working out. And I fired him. That’s what I did, I fired him. He was using me as a punching bag and I didn't feel like being such. But be that as it is, that is over and done and I stayed in D.C. my original degree from Western was in sociology/social work, they didn't, they were just developing a social work major as I was leaving and they had a minor in social work and that’s what I did. And so after I got back to D.C. I started doing work that was social service related not necessarily pure social work. I worked for the District of Columbia government as an Page 1 �assistant in the, for the city council. And that was a very unusual experience because the District of Columbia is like no place else, basically in the world, because it's not a state and at the time when I first got there, we could not even vote for the President of the United States. Much less have any representation in Congress. And it’s still that there is no voting representation in Congress, we can vote if you are a District of Columbia resident, you can vote for the President of the United States but as far as being represented that’s it. And the District of Columbia budget has to be approved by Congress even though, even all the amount of money raised in the district. And Congress does supplement some because of all the federal buildings that are part of the district but it is not as generous a compensation as would happen if there was a military installation in a particular state or in a particular region because there are local representatives that would make sure the reimbursement to that area would be far more generous. And so the District of Columbia has to operate in a really peculiar fashion and so you learn a whole lot about government in funny ways and you learn about both the federal and the local government in funny ways because they are so intertwined. GOOTE: I never thought about any of that CLAYTOR: Oh and nobody does, and there is no reason to unless you're right nearby. And so in the job I had I had to sometimes write testimony for my bosses to defend our budget at Congressional hearings. So it was part of my job, on Capitol Hill, defending the District of Columbia’s budget, it was local government but it was odd. So, that was one of the things. GOOTE: Wow. Do you feel like there was a difference between how you were treated in Washington D.C. and West Michigan? CLAYTOR: Oh absolutely. I mean Western Michigan is a place unto itself and I obviously didn't understand nearly how unique it was until I was in the District of Columbia. I remember one of the most startling things that came to my attention was I joined an Episcopal church whose pastor or rector was the son of an RCA pastor. And when growing up here in Grand Rapids I had no idea that there was a different between the Reformed Church of America and the Christian Reformed Church. I just figured they were all Dutch people and they all went to the Reformed Church of some sort and that was it. There wasn't much more to know particularly. But after I met this uh upstanding clergy person, who was also somewhat of a snob, he kind of was... speaking kind of disparagingly of the CRC folks and I thought, "Oh what’s that all about and then began to be more kind of interested in how that developed. The differences between the two denominations and how they came to be two different denominations and one thing and another. And there is another telling piece of how that happened. When I went to, for some reason or another, I don't remember why I was there, but I was in the office of the Roman Catholic bishop’s council or whatever it's called but the organization of the national bishops of the Roman Catholic Church. And they had a map, and it was color coded by region or county or something that would tell you what the predominate denominational affiliation was for the county, for the region, whatever. And there were different colors assigned to main line denominations and there was this bright blue color for "other". And all of Utah was "other" and we could kind of understand that, those of us looking at the map, and all of w Michigan was other and by that point I was the only one who had a clue as to what that "other" meant, but the fact a whole group of people migrated from the Netherlands to the united states to practice a more conservative form of their religion, and it was a whole group of people men women children, the whole shebang that set up here and they set up the whole support system to practice the religion as they wanted too, it ended up having a much greater impact on the community than you would imagine. Really. Page 2 �GOOTE: So did you grow up religious? CLAYTOR: Yeah, I've always been an Episcopalian. My mother was an Episcopalian, and her mother before her was an Episcopalian. But being an Episcopalian here in GR was kind of rare. People looked at you like what in the world is that? And I got to DC and I didn't see any CRC or Reformed churches. RCA types and then later on I found one RCA church and when I got back here I looked up on the computer and there was one CRC church in the whole of the District of Columbia and I thought oh is that interesting. And of course there were Episcopal churches all over the place and so it was a whole different dynamic both religiously and then I began to realize culturally. Because the the way of doing things culturally I think because of a lot of them, at least in the earlier days, the people who relocated here, kind of had a closed group of socialization or what not. And if you were outside that, you were just kind of outside of it. And it created a much more conservative environment and so even now I find that there is much less just plain 'old socialization. Socializing among different groups of people I imagine with young people it's getting better. But Grand Rapids and Western Michigan is so overwhelmingly dominated by couples, if you're not part of a couple, you can hang it up. And in Washington, if you lived and breathed and were friendly with somebody there were gatherings of people who would get together. And there would be married folks and single folks and people of this or that ethic group you know what I mean it was just kind of a mixture and I find that to be much more, it just doesn't occur much here. GOOTE: So would you say that you felt more excluded on the basis of religion and didn't deal as much with being discriminated by your race? CLAYTOR: uh nuh. Race and Religion were kind of all, it was a both and. I mean when my parents bought this house, or my father did cause he married a widow with a child, and, actually a mother. He had set up his medical practice here and had a difficult time as an African American physician setting up a practice. And he had decided he wasn't going to marry until he could support a family. That was just how he saw it. And he actually lived in a rooming house until he married Momma and bought this house. And he couldn't get any of the real estate agents to show him any houses outside the ghetto. And if you look at that portrait up there he doesn't look particularly African American, he kind of could be a lot of different things but the real estate people knew his ethnicity and just wouldn’t show him places and so he meandered around and bought this house from the owner. And he went and got a mortgage from the bank where he had his accounts. Mostly I understand from him, he did that to open the doors so that other African Americans could get mortgages. 'Cause he had been saving so long for his life that he could have bought the house straight out if he wanted to, and ultimately did, when the banker kind of said, "oh well you were late with a payment and he said will you look at the accounts I have with your bank?" and the guy did and he said, "will you transfer some money and pay this mortgage off?" 'Cause ya know, this nonsense, cause, he felt it was total nonsense to be aggravated that way. And then when I came along as his first natural child I went to school and the kids I guess were told there was going to be a black kid in their class and I didn't particularly stand out in a way that would be meaningful to another kindergartener and so they apparently went home and said well no we didn't see one. So then they came back with my name and then said are you colored or are you white and so when I said I was colored they started calling me nigger. And I could tell even though I didn't know about that word, I could tell that it was negative and that they weren’t playing with me. So I believe the story is that I came home and told my mother since they couldn't figure out if I was colored or white I was going to tell them I was a medi. And I don't know if I ever did that but that's how I felt. There was always this exclusion, and since I was the only medi or colored kid or whatever in the school there was always that cloud saying that maybe you're not quite the same as everybody else. And that there is something Page 3 �wrong with you. And then by the time I hit Junior High, we didn't have middle schools then, we had a Junior High which was a newfangled idea, and , then , I, then I had ultimately become part of the fabric of the elementary school. And was invited to birthday parties and what not, and that was alright, but then when they started having parties where they would invite boys I was all the sudden no longer welcome. And so the whole group of friends that I had known before just plain dropped me. Period. Ya know, end of story. And so I was able to make new friends and these were the girls that were not interacting with boys and so forth and they were wonderful friends, but it was just the fact there was this immediate shift, just, ya know, for no apparent reason. That that was kind of uncomfortable and then ya know I'd come home and my parents would begin to explain to me what was going on. And then we did, momma did have us going to an Episcopal church that was a historically African American church and that was on the other side of town. But it was hard to be hooked in to the group of kids that went to that church because most everybody went to school across town. And I didn't know anybody and I was kind of shy and so from what I was told, or I figured it out and had it confirmed by some of my classmates when I got to college at Western, that they all decided that because I was shy and quiet that I was stuck up because not only was I an African American living outside the normal neighborhood ghetto, whatever you want to call it, where most of the black people lived at the time. They decided since I was the daughter of a physician that I must be stuck up. And I wasn't, but I was just feeling out of place, I didn't seem to fit anywhere, and it was a pretty bleak kind of experience. GOOTE: Did that continue through high school? CLAYTOR: Oh yeah. GOOTE: So was it any different when you went to Western? CLAYTOR: Yeah it was because there wasn't as much, I mean; Western didn't just have folks from Grand Rapids. I was able to go ahead and just be me. And I did join a predominately African American sorority because, just, ya know, just to make it clear that my personal orientation was on target, because now with your generation kids who, young people who come up with .. Various complexions and looking different can easily discuss both sides of their family "well I've got a white mom I've got a black dad," but for us in my age group the mixing of races so to speak, if you want to call it that was involuntary. My father's parents were slaves. And the...matralinical line was often ... you know... abused by the masters and bore children. Ya know because no matter if you want to go in to the Sally Hemmings sort of mentality and think of that as being a love affair of some sort, the female didn’t have any choice in it particularly. If she was chosen by the master there might have been some benefits to it, there might not, but it was not an equal kind of relationship. And so all of us up until...maybe...the generation after me was kind of ashamed of this history. , just didn't want to talk about it and my mother decided that I should have an opportunity to read some books and learn about the caste and class system that developed in the African American community after slavery was ended. And what happened with the delineation among the people who had been, more closely aligned with the master of the house, or of the plantation or of the farm or whatever it was. Because often times it was the progeny of those relationships that were treated with greater deference or at least those folks had a better opportunity to see how the white folks did things and survive. 'Cause the system in actual slavery was when the people were first brought over from Africa they were separated from any of the people of their tribes or anything so you did not have the cultural cohesion that other immigrant groups get when they come. They come and they set up their churches, their this's thats and the others and there is a certain cultural bond. But if you are deliberated separated from people that speak your same languages and have your same cultural practices, it gets diluted and then the culture that developed among the slaves in general Page 4 �was something that they had to cobble together from what little they could remember from before. And then it would be from a lot of different regions and so it wasn't... it was all new. And there was no way of saying, then for those that were products of these illicit relationships, there was no way to say, "well I can trace my history back through, on my momma's side it was this and on my father's side it was that." Because the father’s side was just rendered to being something you couldn't claim. Although in the South there is a funny way people do sort of know and claim some of it. But in terms of inheritance and that sort of thing. No GOOTE: So just for dates, when did you start college? CLAYTOR: 1965 GOOTE: Okay and when, your dad started his practice here, where did he come from? He moved to Western Michigan from? CLAYTOR: Roanoke, VA GOOTE: When was that approximately? CLAYTOR: Early 30's GOOTE: And your mother? CLAYTOR: She came in the early 40's (She’s eating lunch) CLAYTOR: Yeah, my father grew up on a farm... that his father had established after he was emancipated, and from my father tells me, is that granddad left the plantation and did not look back. Did not want 40 acres or a mule or anything else from the plantation owner. Now arguable, he looked just, the familiar relationship, resemblance is what I'm looking for not relationship, resemblance, was very strong. You could almost not from appearance tell the difference between legitimate and illegitimate children. But at any rate Grandpa, according to Daddy was just was sick of it all and he went and established a prosperous farm. In Floyd County VA which is outside Roanoke somewhere. I haven't looked carefully at the map to get a sense of that. But, and, I do believe it is still in family hands and he and my Grandma Judith, after who I'm named, set up this farm and had 13 kids. And I believe I am the second to the last of 50, I know I'm the second to the last, but I think there were 56 of us in the generation. And my father was the youngest of 13 children and didn’t start producing anybody until he was 50 which are how I get back to having my actual grandparents being slaves. Because they were pretty old when daddy was born, and he was pretty old when he started produced children of his own. So most people my age would not be able to say that their grandparents were, had been slaves. GOOTE: And what was your dad’s full name? CLAYTOR: Robert Claytor. Robert W. He didn't like to use his middle name so I ain't gonna do it. GOOTE: So he came here and started his practice, did he ever talk about how that was difficult? Did he know anybody here? He just chose Grand Rapids off the map and wanted to come up here? Page 5 �CLAYTOR: Something that like that. He went to Meherry Medical College and he had gone. Well he waited until 21 to leave the farm. Because he was the youngest he felt that he owed his parents, waiting until he was 21 to help on the farm before he left. But they only had a one room school that went only through the 8th grade. And actually the older ones would go to a normal school and learn how to teach, and then go back and teach in the one room school. And so that level of education was pretty solid, but it wasn't a high school education. So then he had to spend some time to earn some tuition, to go to a high school. But it was a boarding school since they didn't have a high school black people could go to in Floyd County so he went to Petersburg, Virginia where I think (I can't remember the current name because it has become a college) and got his high school done. He was in his early twenties by that time. Then he went onto the University of Pennsylvania to the Wharton school. He was going on along in that field. The professors there told him in order to succeed in business he would have to start passing as a white because there wouldn't be much of a future for him if he claimed his African American identity. He was taking no part in that nonsense so he completed his bachelors at Northwestern with a pre-med zoology major. At Northwestern they told him if he wanted to go to medical school there he could as long as he didn't touch anybody. He couldn't even watch a white woman give birth, and could only watch an African American woman give birth, but he couldn't touch anybody. And he didn't think that was such a fine was to learn to be a physician. So he went to Meherry Medical College which was one of the historical African American medical colleges. And he graduated from there and while he was at Northwestern he met some wealthy person from Evanston who offered him a job and he went up to North Port Point outside of Traverse City to work during this summer. She just paid him what was tuition. From what he tells me, he had a brother who had become a pharmacist, his next oldest brother because there was one in between him and that brother who had died after World War I, I think he was exposed to nerve gas or something. At any rate, he had approached his brother and said why don't we go to medical school together? My uncle said "okay, fine," but I think, as I recall, I don't keep these dates in my head, but that was around the depression. My father, in his frugle ways, had socked away under his mattress or something so he had tuition to go to the medical school for his brother. What I understand from my father, this lady had decided she was going to pay for tuition for the both of them to go to medical school because my uncle was already married I believe when the notion of going to medical school had occurred. And others of his brothers had gone to Meherry I think one had become a Physician and one a dentist so there was a family tradition there. SO they finished medical school and I think ended up back in Chicago doing a residency. So daddy had a sense of Michigan from being up north with his family that he had worked for. There seemed to be a need for an African American physician here and one in Saginaw. Apparently there was a practice (in Saginaw) my uncle could buy or just ask, and since he had a family, my daddy said okay you go there here and I'll stay in Grand Rapids since there where there needs to be more ground work done, because I can do that. So that's how he ended up here. So he was doing whatever he was doing, living in this rooming house and so forth. And my mom, who was a widow, she had gone to the University from Minnesota. She had graduated from there and was there with her high school or childhood sweet-heart and so it was almost a foregone conclusion that they were going to marry. But ma had promised her parents that she would wait until she finished college. Her mother pushed her to wait a year after finishing college and go work some place. So mama went to work some place, and it took her 6 months to learn the job, and to leave after only 6 months of doing, she didn't like that idea. And her fiancé I guess we called him was getting annoyed for keepin coming up with these excuses, because from what I gather my grandma, my mother's mother wanted my mother not to get married at all but to do things and just get famous with her maiden name. So mama says she went off to New York where her sisters were living, and she was working in Trenton. So she secretly married her beloved and went back to work, but the secret marriage made him happier that she was making the commitment and was trying to assuage (?) her mother's notions of what to do. And so after she finished the second year working at the job with the YWCA in Page 6 �Trenton she married her beloved. He was working in Kansas City as a journalist working on the African American Newspaper in Kansas City. I believe his brother was also out there doing something but I can't get all those particulars together. But at any rate, they were out there and setting up their life, and had a little baby boy, my brother Roger. Shortly after Roger was born, his father Earl got Tuberculosis, and was in a Sanitari. And so mama had to become the principle bread-winner. This was also the depression times so it was a complicated situation and Grandma had to move in to help take care of Roger while mama worked. And then, Earl got out of the sanitari and was working at home, but could only work part-time. They had, I think, disabled one of his lungs. I don't believe it was removed but it didn't work. He was weak and couldn't work full time. Mama ultimately took a job after consulting with the whole family including her husband, and her mother and her brother in law and my God-mother, ya know a confab (?). I found all this out from my God-Mother. And they agreed that Mama should take a job with the national YWCA but it would require a lot of traveling and it was actually based in New York City. And so her husband was still recuperating in Kansas City with her mother and my brother, I mean her mother taking care of both Earl and my brother. while Mama was traveling around a lot and while she was traveling she was doing interracial studies of YWCA's throughout the country. And she came to Grand Rapids to make a speech on said topic, and ran in to one bachelor physician named Claytor. And she had been in Roanoke, where lots of his relatives were living. And in the South, black people couldn't stay in hotels. So mama, the YWCA arranged for them, the black women who were traveling, to stay with families that had space. And my Uncle John, who was also a physician, had space in his house. He had a huge, well, huge by Mamas and Daddy's standards, he had 8 children. And some of them were already grown and gone and already physicians and what not, and so when Mama met Daddy and he looked just like his brother, she said, "Oh, are you one of Dr. Claytor's sons form Roanoke?" And Daddy said, "No, I'm his brother." But he was intrigued she knew the Roanoke people so he invited her out to dinner. And, as I gather, the rest is history. And so they developed a communication and then they developed a relationship, and they settled here. And so then Daddy came and bought this house for us to live in. And the neighbors were not pleased when he bought it. HE tells me the guy who owned it, when he found out Daddy was black; he tried to buy it back. And the neighbors, some of them, were not happy. And then there were a few neighbors who said, "Let's wait a bit, and give 'em a chance and see if they are okay." And it's kind of funny when you figure that clearly my parents, I believe, were the only people in the whole neighborhood who had a college education. Duh. But somehow they were going to drop the property values. It was sort of dopey. But there it was. And so that’s that kind of ancient history. GOOTE: Did your parents ever tell you any particular stories of like, them being discriminated against besides the housing? Did any stories stick out in your childhood? CLAYTOR: Oh I don’t know. They are so common as part of the fabric of... GOOTE: Or for you for that instance, growing up does anything stick out? CLAYTOR: Well, there was one thing that did stick out, does stick out. , kind of, profoundly I guess. Is that I was, yah know I made the best of my days in high school ya know and fashioned a pretty comfortable situation. And I sang in the choir at Creston high school and had lots, some friends from the choir and one thing and another. I had a pretty happy existence and I was a member of the NAACP Youth Council. And that was mostly black kids. And yet one of the guys from Creston decided to join it. And he was in the class ahead and was sort of a big man on campus kind of guy and was sort of interested in a lot of different things. We were going to have a dance, and so he invited me to go to the dance. And I was kind of dbfounded because no one asked me on a date for anything given this odd situation. And there was like one other African American in that guy’s class, which was the class ahead of me, and he was the son Page 7 �of friends of the family, but his parents were often trying to push him to be involved with me which sort of drove him away. When we could have banded together and just survived high school together for the social stuff it sometimes didn't happen. I did go out with him a couple of different times. At any rate, for this thing this guy invited me, and oh I believe the day or so before the event was supposed to happen, he came to the door, he came in, I don't even think he sat down, but he told me that his mother didn’t want him to take me to this dance. You know, because it was going to be interracial dating. And I was smart enough at the time, when he invited me, to know he wasn't really trying to push for me being his girlfriend but it was to go to the dance with someone he'd seen or heard of before. But still for me it was like, a date. Ya know. My god, someone actually asked me on a date. Ya know, and so it was really disappointing. And my family had been worried about something like this happening. Anyway and so when it came time for the dance, we decided that I was still going to go. And my Father actually dressed up and escorted me in to the, ya know, it was at some hotel downtown. And so he escorted me up the elevator and in to the space where the dance was held. Not that he was going to stay and be a chaperone but he didn't want me to feel like I had to stroll in there all by myself. And then there were some other girls there who didn’t have dates. But going from the position of thinking I was going to have a date to not having one that really was hurtful. And there were other things that were hurtful but just not as quite as in your face. GOOTE: So would you say it was more of the insidious backhanded things versus an outright comment or nothing ever got violent? CLAYTOR: No, it wasn't violence or anything like that. It was more of the insidious type stuff. Where people, were all the sudden I would be ostracized from something where I had been involved before. And when it got to be the boy girl thing, I was no longer part of that group of people or it was it was just this quiet kind of ostracism and it was ostracism on both sides of the fence so to speak because I didn't have that much interest coming from the black community either. I was just kind of left out there in the wind. And I had learned from the stuff Mama had me reading and so forth about sociology and what not and I began to understand why it happened. But I couldn't really do much until I got to college and was able to begin to function outside of that whole... GOOTE: Would you say that it would have been the same if West Michigan didn't have that predominant religious, Dutch aspect? Do you think that was a big part of it or... CLAYTOR: It was part of it, but not, it was more a product of the times. , 'cause the religious stuff just has made this community more conservative. And kind of, for a long time, adhering to some of the social norms that were more common in that community. But that interracial stuff wasn't common anywhere. GOOTE: Would you say there was a big difference from when you left to go to Washington D.C. and came back 30 years later? CLAYTOR: Yup, I mean yeah, there was a difference to a certain extent. And yet to another extent no. Because this whole business about the couples thing. , I came back and started going back to the same church I'd gone to as a kid. And people I'd known and stuff would never say, "well, we're having an open house at Christmas time, come." It just wasn't something that happened. And this had been common in D.C. among the people I knew from church. We became kind of a community that did things socially and one thing and anything and it didn't require that we had a mate in order to do the things. And there would be gatherings and everyone would sit down and running their mouths about whatever and, it was just an easier interplay among people but in Grand Rapids with all this conversation about healing Page 8 �racism and one thing and another. I wasn't seeing terribly much of a difference in that kind of interaction from when I was a kid. Going around and talking about race relations. 'Cause I did set up a group of teenagers that were doing this because my parents were prominent in the community and as the Civil Rights Movement, the Modern Civil Rights Movement was taking hold. People were trying to explore the feelings of prejudice and segregation and this that and the other. And so there was group called the Panel of Americans that adults were doing where they would go around and have representatives of racial and ethnic groups. And so there might be a Jew, and a Catholic, and an African American, and a WASP. Ya know, a group. So I rbled around and found my friends who were of various and sundry backgrounds and said, "ok" 'cause there were people that were asking me to do it, go around and talk about what it was like to be black and I'd be sitting up in some classroom someplace talking to a bunch of folks and that just began to feel stupid. And so we set up a Panel of Americans and we were doing the same things the adults were doing. And we actually got one of the leaders of that group there was a priest in town, a Roman Catholic priest who was really can't...****PHONE RINGS*** Excuse me. (She asked for the tape recorder to be turned off. I was coughing so I went to get a drink and paused the recording.) GOOTE: Okay and we are going again. CLAYTOR: Okay, at any rate. We had a meeting of the people that got recruited to be in this group. And, and we would go around and talk about ya know, how much the same we were. Rather than difference in terms of aspirations and one thing or anything. And it didn't matter whether we were Jewish or Christian or Black or White or anything. And that was pretty interesting but I find when I came back these 30 or 40 years later, 'cause you have to figure that I was in college for a while and all that but when I'm coming back and they are having all these institutes for healing racism and what not I'm finding that in the community there is still a lot of this separation. That people aren't just comfortably socializing with each other. And at some point I've talked with younger people who are coming in to the community and they find some of that same kind of stuff going on. I have a feeling now with the increased influx of people to be working at Van Andel Institute and going to the Medical College and Grand Valley's programs growing up and one thing and another that some of this maybe will get to be less so, but I was just kind of amazed that the community was having all of these very out in your face community efforts to talk about eliminating racism and it didn't look like much progress had been made. And yeah, so I noticed, I went into nursing as a second career in Washington and I came back here and I had opportunities to look at the nursing field and I wasn't seeing any African Americans in leadership roles in nursing here in Grand Rapids. And some of the other kinds of professions, ya know, I wasn't seeing that kind of advancement that would indicate things were equalizing out in the way it should. GOOTE: You did see those things in Washington D.C.? CLAYTOR: Yeah, to a greater extent. Of course, DC by itself for a while was called the Chocolate City. Ya know, there were more black people there and there were a lot of educated black people. Now what happened here is a lot of the families ya know who produced kids who went on to higher education the kids just didn't come back here to settle. And I think that's been the case with a lot of families no matter what their ethnicity is. And then you have kind of the retention of some of those more tradition old ways of doing things among any part of the community that returns because I've noticed, I am just a rare thing as an African American adult to come back to Grand Rapids after being gone as long as I've been gone. Obviously there have been a few but it is not a large number. And, I threw a conniption one Page 9 �time, not long ago like five years ago. Mom died in May of 2005, and I had a car accident on Christmas day of 2005. And in January we discovered that I had a slow brain bleed as a result of that accident and so had to have brain surgery and haven't been back to work in other than volunteer kinds of things since. And so just before Mom died I was still on the advisory committee for the health department. And we had a meeting and the rate of infant mortality in Grand Rapids among African Americans at that particular point in time was the second highest in the state. Wayne County was even better than Kent. Oakland County was the highest and Kent was the second highest for infant mortality among African Americans. And so the people were sitting up in this meeting saying, "Oh my goodness, what is this all about?" and they were having reports from like four different program groups that were allegedly working on this problem. And as I looked around this room, when somebody said, "How can this be, we have such fine medical facilities here," and I looked around the room and I said, "Ya know, this a really bizarre situation because I don't talk about my mother often but 60 years ago when she came here to Grand Rapids she would sit on committees and she would be the only African American on the committee. And they were working on problems related to poor health outcomes or poor outcomes of any variety among African Americans and I'm sitting in this room today, her daughter, and the picture is still the same. I am the only African American in the room. And you’re having presentations from four groups. That are supposed to be working on this topic with infant mortality among African Americans and you don't have one African American professional working in those programs. That’s what's wrong." And they looked at me like "Oh my goodness, wants this all about." Because I hadn't been all that vocal. Furthermore they didn't know who I was talking about when I talked about my mother. Well, Mama died before the next meeting and because she was fairly prominent in the community her obit was on the front page of the Press. Which kind of blew me away myself but at any rate it was there. So they had an opportunity to know who I was talking about and what this was all about and so when I went back to the next meeting the woman who was administrating the Health Department told me she they had been granted another chunk of money to work on this problem and I said, "how is this money being administered?" And the woman went and told me that the same committee who had been working on the Healthy Kent 2010 Initiatives would be the same committee that would be working on this again. I said, "Are you telling me, the committee that had those poor outcomes, is going to be doing, I said this doesn't make any sense." And by this point everyone shut up and said, "What do you recommend?" And I said, "Maybe some focus groups that are in the African American community to discuss the problem and preferably being led by other African Americans. And so you can get some real feedback. And that you would have the Advisory Committee meeting at such a time that people from the community can attend if they are not are not health care professionals who can get off from work in the middle of the day to attend a meeting." Duh, I mean I sat on these committees in Washington and we had enough sense to have them in the evening when people could come. I could not believe it. And I sat there and kind of said this that and the other and it was like I speaking some new language. And I find when I talk about coming back here I find there is just a lot of this kind of thing where people think that oh well we'll just think of this program and do it and never ask the people who are to be served what might work." And that is part of what is a throwback to the Reformed community the CRC in particular. Because from what I gather, the missionary efforts on their part, and I've gathered this even from members of that group, is that, a lot of it is to go out and spread the word and invite people to come in and be just like them. But not to go out and work with incorporating people, respecting where their coming from. And so we'll go out and do something for you, and so a lot of the social outreach initiatives whether or not they have been undertaken specifically by the CRC or whether they are undertaken by somebody else. That way of doing things has become more of a common feature here in Grand Rapids and West Michigan than it seems to be in other areas. So you don't find as many peoples who have been in Grand Rapids forever that get to the planning tables for stuff. And so you have the people saying, "Oh well you should do something for my group." And they hear about getting grant money from some place. But Page 10 �nobody has ever kind of said, "Well when you get grant money, you have to account for it." And it's not just you get a check. I mean, there has just been this disconnect for how things work. So you have things kind of going belly up when they don’t' need to be going belly up. But it's just because the way of doing things has gone along a different path. And so it doesn't occur to people to say, "Well if we are going to be working with this community and in this community. And at this point there are professionals who are within the communities. Why don't we work with this group of people and do a program?" As opposed to just thinking of it on our own and it may not be hitting the particular spot, yeah it's just nuts. So at any rate yes, I mentioned that coming back this is why I think I find myself being frustrated because there is some stuff that is just, haven't you quite figured this out yet. And I'd find myself being misunderstood when I'd try and speak about how it might have been done somewhere else. And there are a lot of people I've learned who've come to Grand Rapids thinking that they've had a nice opportunity to do something and they leave. And go back to whenever they came from because they don't want to be bothered with it. And I can see why. And I talk with people the people who I get to know who are newer to Grand Rapids, African Americans who are newer to Grand Rapids and they will kind of look at it and say, "What is this?" It's just very peculiar. GOOTE: To finish up, you said your mom; you mentioned on the phone there was even a scholarship named after here and that she was involved a lot. But what sort of things were your parents involved in? Obviously she served on committees. Did she still work for the YMCA? CLAYTOR: YWCA. W's are different than M's. Woman as opposed to men. They, when she got here, after she had been doing this interracial study for the national YWCA after she married, they both sat down and he ran the numbers and said, "if you go back to work it really won't impact the family that much, because what you earn.." it was going to put him up in another tax bracket, but not enough into it to make much of a difference. So he encouraged her to pursue some very intense volunteer stuff. Such that she went to China for a world YWCA council meeting when I was 6 months old. And my Grandma took care of me but then after Grandma died he made sure there was household help and what not to make sure she could do the traveling she needed to do for the national YWCA efforts that she was involved in. And a lot of those were involved in equal rights and freedom and dignity for all people. And that was what she did. And daddy had been involved in the community chest, and community services here in Grand Rapids as a volunteer. And he help to found the Grand Rapids Chapter of the Urban League along with an Episcopal Bishop which was kind of interesting because daddy was a Baptist at the time. But he did a lot of community outreach work and what he decided to do, well when he and Mom got married, he put her in charge of all the family outreach volunteer stuff and he would pull back on doing that so he could spend his spare time with the family. And so as a family unit, the whole effort could be put forward. And so his efforts were often putting forward, treating people with equality and dignity. And in his practice it was always that way. And to make sure that people of all ethnic persuasions had equal access to jobs and things. And mom's efforts involved in the community, she was one of the people who set up the Han Relations Commission in Grand Rapids, it was the forerunner of the equal employment activities. There was just a lot she was involved with. When I was young there were very few if any African American teachers in the school system. And Mom pushed very hard for that to be changed. You would have African American people in the community who had been to college and had teacher certification and they wouldn't be hired in the system. They had to be out in retail establishments and doing things that were not compatible with the educational background they had, and that was real stupid, and mom did a lot of stuff about those kinds of things and sorts of local community stuff she did. And so she had an impact in a strong way. And I kind of was eh, a little astonished, not astonished but realized that they hadn't gone back enough in History because when they were opening up the new Han Services Building for the county they went to have a profile of Mama Page 11 �in the building and I tried to tell them, but no one asked me at the right time, that it would probably be more appropriate to have my father in that area because of the kinds of things he did with his medical practice. Ya know, he saw just an enormous number of patients without charging them, or would charge them way lower fees just because of what people could afford. And he did his thing so quietly that people didn’t know, the people who knew him knew, and they had a great deal of respect for him. And he was just a real significant figure, particularly in the African American community for just the kinds of things that he did to push for the dignity and uplifting of everybody. But because Mom ended up having the more public role she got a lot of attention and she was inducted in the Michigan Woman's Hall of Fame and all manner of things. And she had every right to be there but it was very much a team effort with them in terms of how they viewed their role in the community. (She points out a photo of her mother receiving the honor for the naming of the scholarship at GVSU) END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75933085f74177ee918736353cb6ebaf.mp3 6db5c85a76b6cfc9ffbfe8ea8cde07c1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Claytor_Judith Title A name given to the resource Judith Claytor audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Claytor, Judith Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Goote, Paige Description An account of the resource Judith Claytor was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She graduated from Western Michigan University with a degree in sociology/social work. She discusses the racial and religious differences between living in Grand Rapids and Washington D.C. and attending Western Michigan University. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Religious discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e39f44916cb267a4b197696c6996dcd5.pdf 21e356d985b46dc53b436cea0d00ae82 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Mark Connorton Interviewers: Brandon Gummere, Tyler Helinski, Joseph Rocco and Julio Ortega Vasquez Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/24/2012 Biography and Description Mark Connorton is a mathematics major at Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He discusses his alcohol and drug addiction issue and how it affected his relationship with his parents. Transcript GUMMERE: My name is Brandon, and I am here today, February 24th, 2012, with Mark at Grand Rapids Michigan. We are here today to talk about your experiences with civil rights in Western Michigan. Could you please some basic information about yourself? Your full name, date, and place of birth? CONNORTON: Okay, my name is Mark Connerton the date today, is that what’s part of it?, It’s the 24th right? GUMMERE: Yes. CONNORTON: And 24th of February, 2011, 2012 actually, and I was born in Ham Lake Minnesota. And I live here now at 16 Jefferson, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. GUMMERE: Okay, and how old are you? CONNORTON: I’m 22 GUMMERE: Alright do you, what are your parents names, and do you have siblings? CONNORTON: Yeah my parent’s names are John and Mary Connerton, respectively, and I have an older sister. She’s the oldest of the four of us she’s 27. I have an older brother, he’s 25. And I have a younger brother, he is, he’s now 20. So my little brother’s name is Pat, my older brother’s name is Tim, and my older sister’s name is Amber. GUMMERE: Okay, and do you have a girlfriend slash wife? CONNORTON: I have a girlfriend, her name’s Sarah Allen and she lives here in Grand Rapids GUMMERE: Alright do you attend college? Page 1 �CONNORTON: Yeah, I go to Aquinas College in Grand Rapids. That’s where I met my girlfriend Sarah. GUMMERE: Okay, do you have any religious affiliation? CONNORTON: I grew up, my parents, they’re Pentecostal, Protestant Christians. I guess I’d affiliate myself with the Episcopalian Church ‘cause that’s where my girlfriend and I go to church here in Grand Rapids. She’s Catholic, I’m not, but we both find kind of what we about religion in in the Episcopal Church. GUMMERE: Okay. when did you come to western Michigan? CONNORTON: Let’s see, I came here it was the fall of 2007 after I graduated from high school. I came here from from Pittsburg, where I spent the summer with my sister after graduation. so I came to Aquinas in the fall of ’07 to start college. GUMMERE: Okay, how would you describe your own identity? CONNORTON: My own identity. Okay so my name is Mark. I guess my identity would be how other people, see me. What I do, I’m a student. I’m average performance academically. I do really try to get the most out of my classes. I guess I’m pretty open minded, if you ask me to talk about something I care about what you think too. I try to keep that in daily conversations, even. I’m a musician, I love music. I have faith in God. I think that I am alive and that and because of his work in my life. And, I also I love my family. I consider them seriously , a part of my identity, and. I’m dedicated to my girlfriend too. So that’s basically my life. And I have a good work ethic, wherever I’m working, I try to work as hard as I can. GUMMERE: Okay. What are your, career aspirations, and, I guess what is your, what is your major now, what course study are you taking? CONNORTON: I’m a mathematics major at Aquinas. I’m gonna be graduating at the end of this semester, hopefully. (Chuckle) And, I, previously declared a math major just ‘cause I love the subject. I feel academically, it’s it’s really the most important thing to know just because it’s a basic form of knowledge that hasn’t changed throughout the years. When when there’s new math introduced, it doesn’t change the old stuff, it just adds onto it, and even in the hard sciences that’s not the case. Sometimes, they have to make modifications, but that’s still useful, so even though it’s academically right, I feel just because it’s been around, and it’s just solid knowledge. as far as marketability, it’s not there’s only so much you can do with just math. But you can teach it, and if you’re really good at math you can be an actuary, which I’ve looked into. And, I really, I really don’t think I for the amount of time I’d have to put into it, I wouldn’t enjoy it very much because I’m not naturally good at, math that involves heavy calculation. I’m more of a theoretical mathematician, I to work with theorems and proofs. GUMMERE: Okay CONNORTON: And so even with that, there’s kind of a limited there’s a limited market for that. So last semester I declared a, a computer networking minor. And, that’s what I plan to go into. and my background in math is gonna help me with, a lot of the the programming aspect of what goes into networking and developing and programming software for servers and stuff. but I think that’s what’s Page 2 �gonna make me marketable is my math major, not just my my knowledge of the of the field of computers and stuff. So I’m excited to go into that. GUMMERE: Okay to kind of switch gears a little bit, I know you personally, obviously. I met Mark through alcoholics anonymous slash our therapist. So we have some things in common there. But basically how would you, how would you describe your experiences with drugs and alcohol? CONNORTON: That’s it? GUMMERE: That’s the question. CONNORTON: Okay so, it’s a lot. I’ve had a lot of experiences with drugs and alcohol. But would you to me to historically, start from the beginning or just in general? GUMMERE: So I guess we’ll start out, when was your, when was your first experience with drugs and alcohol? CONNORTON: Okay so my first experience with drugs, is kind of typical American kid what their experience with drugs would be. now a days. I guess not so typical because I never I never wanted to do drugs to be cool the first time I did drugs was, I think I had smoked cigarettes once. You know? And that was with my friends just the kind of be cool and hang out. But, I didn’t really care for it, but the first time I actually did drugs, to feel good, was by myself, I remember I was mad at my parents, and my parents were kind of strict growing up. But, they wouldn’t let me go and do stuff sometimes, my friends, the wouldn’t let me hang out, it pissed me off, but. Sorry, I have to try to watch my language. (Laughs) GUMMERE: You’re fine. (Laughs) CONNORTON: But I remember one time, I I was hanging out with my friends, after school, and my parents called me and told me, that “you gotta come home now and you have to come home now!”, and I didn’t want to, I was hanging out with these girls, I was having a good time, and I wasn’t doing drugs or anything, so I didn’t want to but they made me come home, and it irritated me, really badly, ‘cause I didn’t have much, many friends in high school, but I wanted to. But, so it’s what I did, that was my way to kind of vent, I decided I’m gonna go find some pot, I’m gonna go smoke pot, and I didn’t know anything about drugs I didn’t have any close friends, who smoked pot, I didn’t have people who were all into it. So I just went to the kid in my neighborhood who I knew was the pot guy he was, he sold drugs, I just knew it. And very innocently I just walked up to his house and I was “hey man I wanna buy some pot”, and he was obviously very kind of intimidated a little bit taken back, because he knows I’m a good kid, and obviously he’s suspicious, so. But, he ended up telling me come back the next day or whatever, and, he started selling me pot, and I didn’t know this at the time but, I was actually getting a pretty good deal with these guys they were, they were pretty rich kids and they had a very good connection. And they had a house in Costa Rica, and the found a way to smuggle this pot back and they were making really good money. And because I was their neighbor, and I was kind of innocent, they gave me very good deals but they didn’t they never told me I would get, a quarter ounce, of really good pot, for 25 bucks. And, at the time this was in Minnesota where, what, where good marijuana was difficult to find, but I didn’t know that either. But when I first started using drugs, it was I was way into it Page 3 �because I didn’t have any friends who used drugs, I didn’t know what was moderate so, I basically, and this was just during the summer too, so I basically smoked pot, all day, and I, and it was mostly by myself and sometimes with my friends, because, it took a little while to be able to do it with my friends because none of my friends smoked. So I got them to do it, it would be “oh well Mark’s buying pot, if, I mean he’s pretty straight laced, so it must be okay”. So then I would start smoking it with my friends and stuff, but that how I was introduced to it, and I didn’t really realize until college. how, how drastic that change was from nothing, to a quarter ounce of pot, every day and a half, every two days. It was a lot, for personal consumption. But that’s, that’s, basically how it started, and then from, and, and, from using marijuana as almost a coping mechanism, not really for, for fun, just to kind of escape from reality, just “oh I don’t my parents” rather than talking to them about it, and telling them this is what I want to be doing. You know? I just “why don’t I just get high?” I’ll feel good, and that’s, that’s how it started, was with, with, mostly with just pot, and it eventually developed into other things. GUMMERE: Okay, and you would, you would consider yourself, an addict? CONNORTON: Yeah, yeah, in a sense that , right now, I’m not addicted to drugs. I have responsibilities I’m a college student, I have a girlfriend, my family cares about me. I can’t, I can’t be addicted to drugs right now, but I am an addict in a sense that, if I can’t control the extent to which I use substances. I can’t, it’s either that I don’t use anything at all, including alcohol, cigarettes, or, anything really, or I am extremely addicted. not that addicted, but I’ll just keep doing it until I die basically, that’s how it is with me. I can’t, I can’t just have one drink of alcohol. and this was a problem in college too, and that, and it was easy to kind of blow it off, but everybody drinks in college, come on I mean, it’s just it’s, it’s just accepted, it’s, it’s funny, and in our, in our culture that’s just, that’s just what happens. And so for me to be drinking with my friends, and and not stop until I pass out, it’s just normal, it would ne normally accepted, but if I’m 40 years old doing that. what I mean? Which would have probably happened had I not realized, that I have a problem. you’re an alcoholic when you’re doing that. You’re not you’re not having a party, you’re not having fun, you’re sitting there, you’re at home, you might be alone, you might have a family, you’re drinking, and you can’t stop, until until you pass out. And I, granted that not everybody’s that. some people, some people can have a couple beers, and be good, but the way that my body chemistry is, and this might be a result of my previous drug use, is that, I can’t, I can’t just have one drink, if I have one, it’s just “okay now let’s do some shots”. You know? And it, and then it turns into “let’s go get a fifth” and then it turns “okay, I need some smokes” and then it, and then it turns into “let’s get another fifth” and then it turns into “okay what else can we, let’s go find some blow, let’s go find some smoke.” You know? “Let’s go get some pills” whatever, that’s how, that’s hoe, that’s what happens in my nights, if I were to go, and that happened a lot in college, and it’s dangerous and it’s why I consider myself lucky to be alive. And that my life is kind of grace from God, and I’m still alive, and then able to not get back into that. And then, it will kind of build up, my resistance to drugs and alcohol. But, yeah I’m an addict in that sense, that I can’t control myself. GUMMERE: I’m right there with you, you don’t see a whole lot of 70 year old alcoholics, they pretty much die off earlier then that. (Chuckles) CONNORTON: Yeah, you basically die. (Laughs) So you have to make the choice. (Chuckles) Page 4 �GUMMERE: So I guess, in the regard, when did you first realize that you were, that you were and addict? CONNORTON: well I guess, I in a sense, I kind of, I kind of knew it, while I was going on. I guess my, junior year of college. I got to the point where I I decided that maybe, I should really focus on my academics, and my career, and my career goals, and stuff. And I could, I could control it, for a certain amount, it used to be, when I was, and I think I told you this, but when I was first starting doing drugs, it wasn’t “oh okay, when do I get to do drugs next,” what am I gonna, what am I gonna what do I, what am I gonna do “what do I have to get done first”? ? at the end of the day, when am I gonna be able to look forward to getting high. It was what do I have to do, what, what is there that, does not involve, getting high? I wanted to be high all the time, and I wanted to do the very minimal amount of things possible, to stay alive, and be a functional human being. So it eventually got to the point, where it was okay you need to get some of this stuff done, you don’t wanna end up in debt, from college, and flunk out, and be nowhere, and only do worrying about when you’re gonna get your next hit or whatever. ? So I eventually started focusing a little bit on my school work, that was when, going into my sophomore year. Then my junior year, I kind of picked it up a little, but, I, when I, when I was you kind of come to terms with it. when you really it, when you’re when you’re pleased by the lifestyle. you’re an addict, but you won’t realize it, you won’t tell yourself that. I guess when that happened, would have to have been ‘cause you know it in the back of your mind but you accept it. But I, eventually got a prescription for Adderall, because I do have A-D-D, but before I got this script, I abused Adderall too, I knew the addictive properties of it, but, I wanted the prescription just for that, purpose. So, I got the prescription for it, and I started taking, it as prescribed, but it was fun. But, I would still get stuff done, and I don’t know. I kind of realized, that, as in and out of the times where I would stop taking it, I would stop taking it over the weekend. Or when it, when it started to not get fun, that’s when I realized I was an addict. When it wasn’t fun anymore, when it wasn’t when it didn’t feel good. When it felt, (Sigh), I don’t know. It’s, it’s hard to explain. when it really felt crappy, when I was sober, and it really felt, I was just, miserable, that when I knew I was an addict. I knew that I needed drugs, at that point. I was ‘cause I remember, you’re supposed go off Adderall, you’re not supposed to supposedly you’re not supposed to take it all the time, every day, no matter what, it’s good to give yourself, I think they call them vacations, a vacation from Adderall, so that so you can think about it, not think about it, but just give your brain a break. GUMMERE: So your body can readjust to… CONNORTON: Yeah. And I remember, I remember, there’s periods of my life that are just entire years have gone by and I can’t, I can pick out individual events, but I can’t tell you when they happened, there’s a lot of my past, is just kind of blurred. But , I remember being on the Adderall and it would cause my, addictive tendencies to just flare up really bad, and sometimes, the doctors don’t tell you that which I think they really should “hey look if you have addictive tendencies at all, if you have alcoholism in your family, you shouldn’t be taking this,” because I would literally smoke a pack of Newport’s in a shift at work when I used to work at, Olga’s Kitchen, I was a cook there. and I would literally smoke, I would bust my butt I would get a lot done. In a day at work and and I was a really crappy cook before I got the adderall and then know I was much quicker the servers d me and stuff. But I smoked a pack of Newport’s and not in a day but in a shift a six hour shift so every chance I got I would be in and out but I Page 5 �wouldn’t do that if I wasn’t on the Adderall. So I would take these little vacations from Adderall and it would be it would be I was waking up from hibernation. I would try to try and remember everything that happened in the past month and I would be dough that was a month all of that all of that stuff had happened in a month that felt that was a week. everything was just whizzed just whizzing by and I remember I would just not take it for five days and I would just go back to it. It ok and when I was taking the adderall it also increases your tolerance ¬for alcohol and other certain, certain other drugs. a lotta, a lotta, a lot of college kids abuse it for that property. if you want to go out clubbing or if if you want to go out to bars whatever it it allows you to drink a lot and not actually feel intoxicated. So I guess even though I had a prescription for it and even though I did have ADD I remember, I shouldn’t have been taking it, but furthermore I new that I really shouldn’t have been. Because I used it before but I really new I was an addict during that period of my life. With the adderall coming off adderall every once and a while and thinking about dude your life is going by so fast. you can’t even remember everything that happened and granted yeah I might have been being really productive which is what you do when your, normal people what they do when their on adderall. But I didn’t I was a robot and I remember my girlfriend telling me . She thought it was a good idea originally for me to get on it because I had a hard time focusing. But she would tell me your a zombie I don’t, I don’t, you have no personality and I was okay with that I get all my stuff done all my homework done and work and I still get to party at night. it’s it works its fine but really if that’s if your not you what’s the point of you being a live. if you don’t have your own identity if if the substance makes up your identity and that’s how you get everything done you have to depend on it. that’s that’s called being an addict and that’s what I realized. GUMMERE: When did you say describe your kind of the beginning of your use when would you say your use picked up to the point where started to know you needed to make a change? CONNORTON: Oh yeah GUMMERE: When did your use really start to escalade was there a point where you kind of you know? CONNORTON: Yeah. Well I think there was a lot of low points in my life that I should have realized it but I didn’t none of them was strong enough so well one of them was but none of them were strong enough to get me to really say alright your not nothing you really can’t, you really can’t do this anymore. it’s not you’ll die you shouldn’t I’ve been arrested I used to steal stuff to get money for drugs and I was, I was I was charged, I was charged for that I’ve been I almost died a couple times. just from drugs but I mean I wouldn’t say almost died but I’ve been in very dangerous situations and I put my body in very in extreme conditions with substances. but really the main thing that, that made me stop with everything it happened a year ago last September so it happened about about a year and a half ago. GUMMERE: This would be considered your rock bottom, I guess? CONNORTON: Yeah. This I guess so I mean I guess so yeah I mean at this point in my life as far as as far as my drug use it really wasn’t the rock bottom. But but but just what happened to me and my, my lack of respect for the fact that I don’t have self control with chemicals lead to this and I’ve been, I’ve been, I had been at that time I had been worse with drugs I had been using marijuana every, every day all day, not every day, all day every day. that was the worse incentive sleeping and eating that was all I did. Page 6 �there have been times where that was my life. Or if that was pot or what ever at at night then you start drinking and then once I started drinking it was that opens it up to anything and when people ask how many drugs have you done. And I’m dude how why that’s the incorrect question ask me how many drugs I haven’t done. What types of drugs have I not done then I can actually count it. what I mean? But at this time in life this was this was Sept…September 2010. Right, yeah September 2010, I still have the police report here I can show it to you if you want it’s kind of embarrassing. But this was when I was on the adderall and I was really really allowed me to get a lot of stuff done with my studies. But my personal life was not there. I had no friends my relationship with my girlfriend was just that of I don’t know just daily productivity. what are doing today how can I help you get your things done? The weekends it was lets study I didn’t, or I’m going to go drink with my friends it’s either I wanted to do drugs or I wanted to I don’t be as productive as possible. It was weird it was extremes, but it was a Friday night and I hadn’t been taking the adderall and my girlfriend she said that her plans were to one of our friends she knows her through work. They were going to go over to my girlfriend’s house and hang out. with her parents or something that they had plans to do this and it was this girl thing. And I asked you want me to come over I can watch a movie later. Or whatever and then I think her parents ended up saying something about I don’t know it was a girl thing or something that. So I decided okay well I decide to go get fucked up what I mean. So I decided I was going to take some more adderall I went to go see her, I went to go see her at the on campus at the coffee shop first. And we talked for a little bit and she decided yeah go ahead do your thing, we’re gonna, we’re gonna hang out tonight so I’ll see you tomorrow or whatever. So I’m cool I’m I can do whatever I want I’m not gonna study tonight, so I decided I was gonna take another adderall which I had already taken one that day and this is a routine thing for me. sometimes I would take three or four of them and they were I forget how many milligrams they were that’s not important. Anyways so I took another one and I’m feeling freaking just, (deviated from interview) my cat you just gotta be rough with him. He’s used to that otherwise he’ll just do whatever he wants and stuff. You can hit him or whatever, he’s ridiculous. Ok anyways I decided I was gonna take another adderall because that would allow me to drink more and I called up my buddy I did have some friends whose existents in my life was solely for drug use not not some for the purchase of and some for the consumption with I would want to get intoxicated with them. And so I came over there at this point I was buzzed and it was a little at this point it was little bit difficult for me to get stoned from adderall just because my tolerance was so high. It was I had to take it no matter what right after I left campus and I was going to go and see what was, and I hadn’t this in a long time I was actually Pretty studious and with the quantities that I took. But so I went to go hang out with them any way’s this is taking to long. So I we went out we gotta liquor first we got a fifth of Jameson and I drank it with him in probably half and hour. just back to back and we took shots and then I decided I’m smoking habitually heavily at this time even though I had quit at that point I had quit for a long time I hadn’t smoked in three months, but I started smoking on this night. And then I decided I was going to find some drugs, I’m gonna find something. So I’m asking people around and somebody came over to his house and he had mushrooms, so I’m sweet yeah lets do some mushrooms and everyone’s all they didn’t really even want to do them. I was yeah I want to do some mushrooms so I bought a quarter from him. And a quarter ounce and I just, I just started eating them and the guy was dude you shouldn’t eat the whole thing that’s a lot and I actually I hadn’t had mushrooms probably since high school. I did them once in high school, I think I ate a whole bunch of them went to school and I we watched some video in class and I Page 7 �just had to leave. I left school I was just gone and that’s all I remember of mushrooms and I don’t really remember my trip or anything. So I decided I just kept eating them and I ate a whole bag of them. And I couldn’t I’m not gonna feel them right away they they take a while to kick in and I was drunk so I didn’t really care anyways it had to have been cocaine or something I would have used some self restraint. Because you feel that immediately but with mushrooms it’s whatever I’m just eating it’s eating pizza or whatever. you don’t really care so yeah I ate the mushrooms and then we we decided to go to this party I got another fifth and the other fifth that was for me nobody was and it was another fifth of Jameson. And I was just pulling the, pulling on the bottle and was swigging it. And I was I mean straight out of the bottle. So are we good is it. GUMMERE: I’m just making sure it’s recording your good CONNORTON: So then we’re at this party and after drinking almost finished the fifth, I started to feel the mushrooms and stuff. And I was I was wow I felt this was probably, this might have been one of the most one of the times I have been most intoxicated. Because it was pretty those of some weird, that’s a weird kind of combination. adderall, mushrooms, alcohol, nicotine and then at the party I had pot too. when we go there we started smoking a lot of pot. And, and I kind of remember kind of feeling really disorientated and feeling there was something else I should have been doing, I was walking around outside, these are the last, eventually I blacked out, but I’m trying to tell you the last things that I remember. And so I was walking around outside and their were people on the porch and we’re people were we were having a good time at this point. And I just felt I don’t know I felt I was having an out of body experience. I needed something to bring me back. So I decided I’m going to smoke a cigarette now. And that’s the last thing I remember that, that I did. I smoked a cigarette actually I took a couple drags, I took a couple drags and I was and blew it out and I don’t remember anything. I remember felling really weird the nicotine and then wow, it was just black. I passed out, but apparently what happened, what people tell me is that I just took off I took off running. I started running as fast as I could and I don’t know I don’t know where I could have been running to but I was, I was running really fast and I was freaking out. And I mean I have the police report you can look at it if you want it’s pretty embarrassing but that’s what happened I totaled lost it and I just, and instead of just passing out I went into excited delirium I just was screaming I was running all over the place running through people’s yards, hopped the fence and was running around in this outside in this retirement facility or something that. I was going through people’s yards and stuff and eventually somebody called the cops, the cops came and they they commanded me to stop, I wasn’t doing anything illegal I was just extremely intoxicated and I was running around and screaming a freaking crazy person. So and I don’t remember any of this by the way this I’m going off of what was on the police report. And the last thing I remember was the cigarette. And so there are some accounts in the police report about what people saw apparently I picked up a dumpster, a garbage dumpster and threw it on somebody’s car. I don’t remember any of this but so the cops came and so when the cops were trying to detain me you have to stop you can’t move and I wasn’t showing any sign of submissive behavior at all I was screaming I didn’t want to and I talked to the cop afterwards and he said this was days afterwards, but he said that I wasn’t trying to attack them but I would not go into custody. I wouldn’t, they had to use tasers he said that well actually he didn’t tell me this but this is in the report, they had to use tasers three times, they had to tase me three times to get me to actually be contained. have my hands around my back and everything. And they said that well Page 8 �this is what happened, but they, they were, there was three guys and they were struggling to get me into into custody. And when they finally got me in handcuffs I was trying to get out so hard, so badly I wanted to get out I dislocated my own shoulder. I popped it out while it was behind my back and they didn’t know this at the time, I guess. But and I think at that time, I passed out and that’s in the police report. Yeah I passed out loss conscious I was still breathing still had a pulse, but I was unconscious. And the cops said that they thought I was suffering from excited delirium which is were your body pressure keeps heating up and heating up and heating up until you die. Which I don’t know if that was happening, I don’t know if it was that, the drugs might of induced that. I don’t know probably maybe it wasn’t happening maybe I was just having a violent reaction to the mushrooms and all the other stuff in my body. But they took me to the hospital instead of taking me to jail because of that. So they took me to the hospital at the hospital, I was recovering, I don’t remember any of this either. Actually apparently, apparently one of, this is what some of the nursing staff said that when I came into the hospital, by the time I had came I had come to, I had regained consciousness. And I was violently trying to get out of this stretcher they had to put restraints on me and stuff and and I was being very violent and using obscenity’s and just being nuts psycho. And I don’t remember any of it, I don’t remember any of this. So and also my shoulder was dislocated which extremely painful and I was still going nuts. I couldn’t feel it and I can’t remember it. But when I was in the hospital I remember finally coming to and okay I’m in a hospital. Everything’s fine I was I thought was I’m alive and that’s okay. Because the vague memories that I do have of freaking out are utter hell it felt, if I were to imagine what hell would be that’s what that’s what it would be. it was, it was really bad. Was that a phone or was that the recorder. So I was just for it to be done. Basically and I came to and remember being in extreme pain they were giving me morphine and stuff. So I was feeling but when I wasn’t on the morphine I was just ahh, just ugh. whining and what I mean ugh and grunting and stuff. so they, they eventually realized that my shoulder was dislocated and put it back into place and everything. And then I guess after that event I realized that I should have been dead. I really should have been dead that day. And I realized I should probably, I should probably do something with my life. I shouldn't first of all I should not use drugs anymore first of all I won't take the adderall anymore and I won't ... ....when I tried; up to that point I tried to stop smoking pot it would be it would a.... a. It always every other day type of thing when I was in college at least that that much or if not every day or ..... in the beginning of college it was just as bad as it was in high school all day every day, but when I tried to quit smoking pot it was it was always I always wanted the last time smoking pot to be memorable or the last time the last time doing blow or whatever the last time on pills I always wanted to be memorable so that would be ohhh yeah have a positive memory or something or at least something to send me off do what I mean. But I never did it was always crappy the last time it was. I wanted to be and I always ended up come down and be ohhh man that wasn't enough I need to do it again that that was my thought was .... but after this event I just realized that....that I should of been died and that was enough I needed to do some my life I have been granted to me because I really really should of been died and another thing involve this even was that the same night not even kidding I got tased three times and I was I still having a violent reaction still violently aggressively not wanted to be detained and ahhh the same night in Indianapolis which is my home city a kid died he got tased and he died he was he was shot with a taser and he died the same night so it's kind of. Just a creepy thing for me and a realization that ...that that my way of living and my way of resp.... not respecting my limitations substances it's just just silly just not ahhh I don't know it was gonna lead to Page 9 �my death. I kind of realized that I was gonna die that's what it took that's what it took me avoiding death that was wakeup call and then I realized that it has to be a god up there somebody had, something or someone had been looking out for me, because there are so many things I could of been doing I remember car lights I could of. I don't know I could of been in a high way or something I don't know man but that was what it took mm it was a near death experience for me to realized that I needed I needed to turn it around if I didn't want to die. GUMMERE: Describe that feeling I mean I don't think a lot of people ever experience the feeling that, I could of realistically kill myself right there. Describe the feeling you get knowing that kind how push you to get sober I guess ...is that? CONNORTON: I don't know I guess I'm motivated by the people around me and the the the goals that I have in life because once you ....I haven't really talked about this before but once you have that experiences were you you could have died and really you should be died there is not much that can happen to you that you are not gonna be prepare for; what I mean, I I know what death feels when I was trippin and the stuff that I don't remember if I can try to explain it to you it would be everything. Not just my vision but everything was black everything and in my head everywhere was black and then and then there would be a tiny little spec of light a white dot that I would try with everything with every ounce with every measurable of whatever energy that I had in my body try of seek out that light and just just really try to get to it and then getting closer and closer and this is funny I was probably running my ass off (Laughs); trying to get to the light of whatever its sounds totally abstract and stupid but then I would finally get it and then get bigger and bigger and bigger and then everything would go white everything is white now but I still feel so lost and need to get back to where a a normal place is and then it would be a little black dot and then it would be the same thing over and over again just agonizing and it wasn't I need to the black dot it was . Not only would I be died but everything would just see to exists if I don't seek this thing out with everything I have and finally get to it and have everything normal again; but then once you finally get there it just something is also completely abstract and abnormal but the near dead experience is . Once you are alive after it, you just appreciate being alive more for the good things in life ... you really think about all the consequences of what you do and the benefits of what you do, you know why, you try to look back and think what I my motives for everything I do, why am I alive you think about live little more and I kind of look at it as a positive experience because first of all if it wouldn't happened in that way I'm sure down the road if some other crazy things would of happened and odds are that I would of died from a serious drug overdose. Because by the way my ahh my my drug alcohol level is it was point .22 something so, it was pass .25 so if I would gotten to. If I would being in the hospital, I probably would of died because I was running around randomly. I might not died from the alcohol poisoning but I mean it would of done some serious liver damage but I probably would of passed out somewhere in a ditch and I would of die ...... or any other things could of happened; hit by a car whatever start a fight with somebody or whatever, but I forgot where I was going with that. But but I don't know once you realized that your life is been spare you really start to look at all the aspects of your everyday life who are you helping. You know? what good are u doing for for greater human population or even just your family; who you have around you that that that cares about you that you would to see. ? prosper and then you want to take care of or something that just you need to look at your goals more. You know what I mean? it's not just I should of do this I better go to college I better get Page 10 �a job it's . Why? why am I here why. There has to be a purpose for my life now because I really should be died why am I not just died instead of being alive right now. I have to be doing something and you think about what it is that you should be doing and for me I found guidance through prayer and a read the bible I find a lot of wisdom in there specially in the words that Jesus actually said but that's that's just for me that's my thing I still respect other religions and what not but but I just kind of a desired to just be a good person to be good because otherwise you only serving yourself and that is just pointless I may as well be dead (Laughs) what I mean what what. If you are not helping people who are really in need or who are really suffering or want to live they are on such at risk of dying what's the point of what's the point of you being alive in access what I mean? So you tend to a ....think to think about that stuff a lot more and you. Also we were saying it prepared you for anything really. my girlfriend always tells me when bad things happened to us I'm always okay what do we do now; instead of ohh I can't believe this!! are you serious? this has just happened (Laughs). I'm always ohh that is terrible that is just bad okay. Now what is the course of action that we must take. Because, okay I'm not getting torture and I'm not dying so now just solve the problem (Laughs) that's . So it gives you a different perspective I'm not saying that it's necessary to I mean everybody is different what I mean everyone finds their purpose of life . for me it might be that. I'm not stupid that I really had to used this drugs for that long for me to realized that I need to respect my limitations with that and there is more to life just than self indulgence in control substances you know what I mean? So I guess that what it meant for me the near death experience. GUMMERE: Okay. Being 22 years old and been in recovery drug addict/ alcoholic. you don't see that too often unless you go to places AA what I guess specific challenges do you young addicts face; would you say somebody who older doesn't necessarily have to deal with certain specific challenges that you say? CONNORTON: Can you say the first part of the question again? GUMMERE: Basically just what unique parts are there to be young and being addicted than to be old and being addicted. Is there anything different that in it that makes it harder. I mean for me instance it's just the fact that people our age you said they party it's what they do so it's hard to kind isolate yourself from that. CONNORTON: Okay I just have to use the bathroom really quick and then I can answer that. GUMMERE: How do you pause this thing? CONNORTON: You don't have to pause it don't risk deleting it. (BATHROOM BREAK) GUMMERE: Dude, I'm sorry but when you were on the roughest part of it and your cat turn the sink on and off; I was amazed by that so I was smiling (Laughs). It wasn't the fact that you almost died (Laughs). CONNORTON: He wasn't turn in it on he drinks little bit out when he licks the area it pisses me off so bad; I hate him for it and every time he does it I make this psst don't do whatever you doing or else you gonna get hit and the he keeps doing it that's the one thing that he just keep doing its just worth it for him. Page 11 �GUMMERE: Alright, actually we will. We are gonna change the question. CONNORTON: Still recording it? GUMMERE: Yeah CONNORTON: Okay GUMMERE: Just regardless. Next question would be. Did you drug use cause your friends and family or people in general for that matter to treat you differently? CONNORTON: Yeah somewhat, I guess at first not; not at all because they didn't know because I was really really good at hiding it, there is precautions that you take. Specially if you smoke a lot pot. you heard at lot of teenagers talking about this, you need to get your visine, you got your gum, mouth mints, you got body spray, nobody would not known you are stone man; you are good, or you can still act high; you can. I can be looking someone and be yeah you are stone unless you are me when I was starting smoking I actually got developed to the point where ; my little brother he knew he knew I smoke. He was the only kid in my family that caught me couple times he knew I smoked pot he would. Honestly, he could not tell whether I was stone or high because I was stoned so much more often than I was sober. ridiculous somehow. So that was normal when I was stone that became my personality that was me. So at first it was a long time it was 2 years probably that this. Well maybe not that long maybe a year and half because I started smoking ahhh . This was late I started smoking my junior year, which is actually pretty late for Americans but my parents didn't really catch on to it until after I starting abusing alcohol and pills and stuff too. So once they figured it out they immediate attitude towards it was extremely ahhhhh; they were aggressively towards solving it they wanted it to not be happening to me anymore and any degree what so ever. Ohh and they were really strict about it because my cousin had ahhh fallen into drugs abuse patterns and die he was he would be I think he would be my older brother's age right now but he died when he was 20 years old so they it's in the family to be really protective about that kind of stuff, and their reaction to that to that forced me into more drug use because I was get off me I just want to be in my own world . My friends didn't act different towards me because they were the ones I was doing drugs with and they think they acted better around me if I was the one who came through you I was the best the coolest guy . Yeah actually I remember the time this is how pathetic drugs serious being drug addicted to drugs is, my friend and I had this falling out and ahh and I think it was over a it was either a quarter pound or just quarter ounce of pot that we end up adding up together and it was just gone we lost it we thought somebody stole it and we thought it was one of us. So we had this falling out and we didn't each other at all and then the other two of them two two of my friends they started hanging out again and it was ohh we just hate those guys we don't each other anymore we suppose to hate them or whatever but then one time I got hooked up really good with some ecstasy and I have ten of them and I got really good prices of them and I was yes! and . At first it was I'm going to be the one who consumes this, this are mine but my friends found out from somebody else that I have them and it was Mark is awesome now he is so cool we love him and it got reunited our friendship (Laughs). after that we started doing drugs together all the time and just hanging out that's what we did we didn't hangout we got together and got fucked up that was our life but my family got really concerned after awhile yeah they didn't act different towards me they didn't they didn't it Page 12 �completely changed their interaction with me it was a totally different setting. It was what are we gonna do to get you to come back to reality, and stop avoiding everybody and being so reclusive, and not caring about anything, ya know, there was no, they didn’t act differently to me it was completely changed. It just changed the whole game ya I guess so yes they did, but it was just, it wasn’t normal interaction it was they weren’t my family anymore they were just these people who were trying to get me to stop using drugs they weren’t my brothers they weren’t my brothers they were they were just people who were really concerned about me, we never just hung out for fun. It was what are you doing tonight, what are you gonna go do, are you gonna sneak out? Ya know so ya they were my family in that they cared a lot about me, but it, our interactions were not normal interactions anymore. Once they finally realized I had a serious problem which was a year and a half after I started using drugs. But if you want I can quickly answer that question that you had before. GUMMERE: Sure CONNORTON: I can’t really say how versus being an older person addicted because I’m not I don’t, I haven’t been there and I’m, I think younger people in a sense, if they are younger people who realize they have a problem and admit to it which is AA would tell you that that’s the first step towards defeating addiction is admitting you have a problem and really they view it as admitting defeat saying that you are helpless to help yourself you can’t do it, you need assistance, you know what I mean if you’re at that stage in your life and you’re a younger person that’s awesome, you are way advantaged compared to older people and we’ve seen this at AA going it’s look at all these guys the AA meeting does not become I’m sure they talk about a lot what’s going on in their lives and how they want to, what they want to pursue to avoid circumstances where they’re not drinking what do they want to do, but when younger guys are there, it’s about them. It’s what are you gonna do and it’s it’s a lot of the conversation is directed around the younger people because even when the older guys are talking about themselves it’s that’s knowledge that you can use to not make that mistake you know it’s not that I’m a better person because I realized when I was so younger that I am addicted, No. It’s that you’re lucky enough to have your life spared you should be dead and now you are also lucky enough to go and hear what these people have to say about their own problems and what their own addictions have led to ya know as a younger person yes you should be participating in that but also, and I would guess if your addicted to drugs and you’re an older person you have many more responsibilities it’s probably very agonizing to see your family, it’s not just your brothers and sisters, it could be your wife, and your kids and not only are they agonized to see you in the condition that you’re in a lot of the times but your agonized because they have to see that I can’t imagine, I can talk about it but I really probably should be because I haven’t experienced it but also I can say as far as being a younger person that’s addicted is that ya it’s so normalized in our culture and it’s almost shunned if you want to get help ya know because in the college culture drinking, partying it’s a normal thing and I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be but for some people me, and I think if this is hereditary thing, substance abuse, alcohol abuse is hereditary, but it’s not okay because when I start drinking ya binge drinking is accepted on college campuses because it’s the cool thing to do, but for me binge drinking is regular drinking every time, that’s just how I am, I can’t it’s not because everyone else is doing it and I want to be cool, it’s not because it’s fun. It’s because I started drinking. Binge drinking is because I had one shot, that’s just what happens next I am going to keep drinking until I pass out or until I feel so good that I can whatever I don’t even a lot of kids Page 13 �have their minds on getting laid I don’t even care I just want to keep getting intoxicated if it just so happens some girl wants to get high or something and then we end up having sex whatever that’s cool but I’m not going to go out of my way to go and find a girl, I just want to get intoxicated that’s what happens in the life of an addict ya know what I mean so but, but that’s a normal thing, you wouldn’t be able to tell somebody who’s addicted to drugs from someone who is just partying, you can’t there’s still just selling drugs, using drugs, drinking, whatever its normalized so you really, it’s difficult to get anywhere until your realized you have a problem, but also for younger people in my situation vie been in a lot of places where its accepted, it’s almost culturally normal you should be drinking right now its new year’s eve someone’s making a toast, but I don’t drink, I’m sober I haven’t had any alcohol for coming on two years so but I’m cool around my family but with people I don’t know it’s ya cheers with my water glass ya know and its weird. I’ve gotten over that and trust me it’s not, it’s not bad that is anything compared to being addicted to drugs that’s nothing, those awkward situations and then people might question you oh really, so you can’t control yourself? Ya know you can’t you don’t trust yourself, what kind of person are you well I’m an addict, that’s how it is, that’s in my genetics ya know you get to the point where if you have a problem with that I really don’t care because I know that I should be dead and I’m not gonna it’s not the person is trying to get you to use drugs, there just trying to, I don’t know some people just don’t understand ya know they just say lighten up, just have a drink, but you don’t understand if I have a drink either you or me is gonna be in the hospital tomorrow and were gonna wake up, ya know it’s not gonna be fun. It’ll be fun at first but at the end of the night it’s going to be ya so that’s what’s difficult about being young and being an addict. GUMMERE: We’ll prolly wrap up after this, but basically what would you tell a person that has this problem, and hasn’t sought help yet? CONNORTON: I guess I would say keep doing what you feel is right but I guess you’re not concerned with that but don’t wait, don’t wait for something terrible to happen because it’s bound to happen it will happen, it’s going to happen. Continue using drugs and watch all the bad shit happen to you your life will, it’s gonna suck, you’ll feel great, you’ll feel awesome all the time but in reality everything is terrible around you, everything is terrible because you’re not paying attention to anything you don’t care about anything but the way that your body feels, and the way that you perceive your body to be feeling the chemicals in your head, that’s all it is, when your high, when your stoned and everything is alright, it’s just a chemical in your head ya know your family could be dying and you wouldn’t care as long as you have your drugs eventually you will get there, eventually you will get there and I’ll say that addiction doesn’t always happen right away, it doesn’t always happen right away, sometimes addiction starts with self-control when I started smoking, when I started smoking pot no it was immediate it was right away, it was now this is what I’m gonna do for the whole summer this is my life now, this is awesome but with cigarettes I knew it was bad for you, cigarettes are bad I shouldn’t be smoking cigarettes but I would only smoke once every weekend or whatever, and I could control myself, for a year I only smoked on the weekends ya know it was a long time, but eventually you will get to the point where your tolerance will go up your desire to use it is gonna go up, it will you will want to use it and you will give in, youre a human being your just chemicals in skin. the laws of physics say that you are gonna want more of what you have that your body s, you’ll get addicted to it, (laughs) it eventually happens, and my little brother started smoking a little while ago, and he was the same thing, I basically just beat the crap out of him, Page 14 �(laughs) you can’t just don’t, I only smoke this, I only smoke this time. No. You’re gonna get addicted to it, and that’s the case with other drugs. if you start using any other type of harder drugs, and its fun, and you it. What do you think is going to happen? are you going to be using those drugs for the rest of your life is that what you want eventually you will have to stop using it. do you wanna, do you wanna be the person who has to quit pills when you’re thirty years old? And you have a family, or you’re thinking about starting a family. Can you imagine how addicted you will be at that point? And also this is especially important but what, name one benefit. What are the benefits to using drugs? Other than it feels really good. it feels really good. I’m not gonna lie, it feels really fucken good, drugs they feel really good, they will make you feel great, but that’s the one thing. Name one other benefit, anybody. Okay so it costs money, you will deplete your funds. If you’re really addicted, that’s all you will spend your money on, and eventually you’re gonna go broke. Okay, and number three, or wait this is only two things (laughs) See what it does to your brain, man? (laughs) Okay, so number two, ya it has physical effects on your body, you’re gonna, you’re gonna deplete, your body’s ability to sustain itself. It depends on what drug, but that’s widely accepted you’re gonna hurt your body. the people you surround yourself with, not just the dangers that substances does to your body, but the people who are surrounded with drugs, they’re bad people, people who make a living, not all people, but in general people who make a living surrounded on other peoples addictions are ad people, and you’re gonna put yourself in dangerous situations. And then number four is is this number three or number four? Okay, it doesn’t matter what number it is, but this is another thing. You’re addicted to drugs so you are subjecting yourself to your own desires. you don’t realize what you will do to get that substance. once you start using it recreationally. It’s fun, and you got money, you can go get it, it’s fun, I can go do it with my friends, but what are you gonna do five years from now when you’re broke because you spent all your money on drugs, and you need it, you will need it, your body will want it so bad. that’s your life; you’ll want it so bad. It’s the only things that is important. so what are you gonna do? What crime are you gonna commit? Who are you gonna hurt? Ya know? not just the effects on yourself. when you say who am I hurting by doing drugs? Okay well you’re hurting yourself, but that person might say “Okay fine let me do that to myself” who might you hurt though, who might you surround yourself with that has what you want? Ya know what I mean? Or is there other people around you who care about you? that would be invading someone else’s personal life. you’re hurting someone else by not giving a crap about them. if you have people in your life that are dependent on you, or people in your life that care about you, and you’re using drugs your putting your drugs, you love you love. if you’re addicted to drugs, you love drugs, you love them; you love them because you spend time with them. You would do anything for them, anything to get them, ya know? You love them more than you love people so if there are people that you love, you love drugs more I guarantee that you do, and then also if you’re addicted you’re putting other people at risk people you don’t even know because you don’t know what you’re gonna do when you’re on a bender. You don’t know what you’re gonna do when you’re coming down, and you really want something ya know? So you’re a danger to society ya know, I don’t know. Also I would say that other disadvantages there is a plan for your life there is things for you to accomplish. There are people who need your help. There are people dying right now, because they don’t have food, and you’re sitting there smoking a joint by yourself, or you’re hanging out with your friends and you’re rolling on ecstasy, or your sitting in an alley, and you’re shooting up heroin. there is people dying, and you’re killing yourself? how I don’t know man. how arrogant is that, ya know its selfish, it’s so selfish. Page 15 �don’t be, if you’re gonna kill yourself at least I don’t know join the army or something and go and run out and try to kill the enemy, and go on a suicide mission. if you’re gonna kill yourself, help people first, ya know? There are people that’s I don’t know there are people dying, there is good to be done ya know. when everything is great, when world hunger is over and, and there is world peace, there’s no poverty, I really can’t say anything to you, go ahead do drugs whatever (laughs) but still there are all the other disadvantages, you would be hurting the other people around you, you would be endangering society, you’d be killing yourself, ya know, but those are some serious reasons why you should just first of all you should not start doing drugs, I mean because it just leads to bad things, you will become addicted to it. If you think you’re not addicted to drugs, and you are using drugs, you will become addicted to drugs because you don’t respect drugs. You love them, but you don’t respect them so you need to do that. you need to stop using drugs, or at least realize it’s a dependency issue, and you can’t but, I don’t know as far as drinking and stuff, I guess some people can do it, some people can’t, some people can’t control themselves, if your one of those people who can’t control yourself, there is help out there, there is people out there that you can be accountable with, so that you don’t end up hurting yourself, or hurting other people around you, but ya that’s all the advice I got. GUMMERE: Do you guys have any other questions? It was good. CONNORTON: That’s a lot, sorry. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9abdc62b7f13b673e54440b03a8e6937.mp3 e70b17660969a2de92b385e8a546d9ac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Connorton_Mark Title A name given to the resource Mark Connorton audio interview and transcription Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Connorton, Mark Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gummere, Brandon Helinski, Tyler Rocco, Joseph Ortega Vasquez, Julio Description An account of the resource Mark Connorton is a mathematics major at Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He discusses his alcohol and drug addiction issue and how it affected his relationship with his parents. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5a1e3187ee672cd9df8570c647a4cbf.pdf ef83a9f06ac9d6f96a9c8c99a1bce1ac PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Joseph Cospito Interviewers: Justin Francis Cospito Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/9/2012 Biography and Description Joseph Cospito likes working on his house, playing with his children, being a stay at home dad, and listening to books on audio tape. He is a retired science professor who is married to an episcopal priest. He discusses growing up in the fifties in Bartonville, Illinois. Transcript JFC: My name is Justin Cospito and I am interviewing my father Joseph Cospito at three PM on March ninth and we are in our home of Northville Michigan and dad would you like to spell out your name? JAC: Sure, last name is c-o-s-p-i-t-o JFC: So tell us a little bit about your background, where’d you grow up? JAC: Well I was born in New Jersey, but I grew up in the Midwest, a little town called Bartonville, outside of Peoria, Illinois. It was an old coal mining town and we were the only Catholic family that moved into that area. We moved into an old coal miner’s house that didn’t have water, electricity, and an old outhouse out back. JFC: Alright, well did you have any siblings? JAC: Yea I had three siblings. I had two sisters and one brother. My brother John was the youngest and I was the oldest. JFC: And do you wanna just explain what your childhood life went through, and through high school? JAC: Yea it was challenging to live in a small town where everybody knew your business. I remember we had a phone line that had like five people on it and there was Mrs. McGullicutty would listen to everybody’s conversations. She would just be quiet. She knew when to get on the phone cause all the phones would ring. If a call was coming into that line and people were always saying “get off the phone get off the phone” but she’d listen quietly and you could hear her. That’s what a small community’s like. It was the fifties so just remember grade school as being like a prison it was a big old building, dark. Page 1 �Teachers seemed like they were ancient and they were mean. Back then you could get paddled or they could break yard sticks across your back, not the girls just the boys. And sometimes you just had to break some rules to have some kind of a life in that institution and I choose to break more rules than I probably should have. After grade school in Bartonville, Bartonville grade school I was sent to a catholic school and went to a catholic high school. All boys school, I liked that, I enjoyed that much much more cause I was heavy into athletics and I was a very religious person and actually was invited to join to enter into a pre-seminary they called it, to finish up high school, but I didn’t do that. My father blocked that idea. JFC: Well can you tell us a little bit just about your interpersonal relationships with your father and your siblings. JAC: Sure I was the oldest so I saw my duty to take care of and look after the children. My father, your grandfather was a veteran of world war two. He was in the army before World war two started. He was in Greenland and he told me stories about German bombers coming over and trying to bomb the base and that was before war was declared to the US then he was brought back to the states. He was a medic, he was trained to work with donkeys and then shipped around the world to India and then he was flown into southern China over the Himalayan Mountains with these donkeys and for two years he ran up and down hills being chased by the Japanese. He was with the Chang hi shek army they were, he showed me some pictures. They were absolutely brutal to their own people and he said they never stood and fought against the Japanese. He was with a small medical unit that was attached to the Chinese to care for their wounded and sick. Yea our relationship was not very good, with my father. He was. He had his own post-traumatic stress coming back from the war. His sister said he didn’t come back the same. He was a violent man, explosive, drank a lot. Later found out he was an alcoholic. He gambled a lot we grew up in poverty even though he had a decent job at Caterpillar Tractor Company. Where everybody in my family, I mean all the men in my family worked, At least at some point in their lives for Caterpillar Tractor Company. Oh we didn’t have the money that our neighbors had and other people at our school had and that was very difficult and shameful to live that way. That and his temper and his violence. So I tried to shelter my siblings as much as possible from his wrath taking his, taking his violence physically, but emotionally it was very, very difficult. I hated him for almost my entire life. And still to this day I can’t be at peace with it. My mother was weak, she just, when she tried to stand up to him he just over powered her and I saw him hit her once. Hmm she was afraid of him and she was afraid of what he would do to her parents who lived in the same town. He had threatened to hurt them if she left him. Oh that, it was a hard time. JFC: So why don’t you tell us what it was like growing up in the fifties and just continue on until you got into college and what you did in college. JAC: The fifties were certainly different than today’s world. It was actually a much more, it was a calmer life and not near as much drama and didn’t hear about all the violence that we have today. I think, I don’t know if it was less violence but I grew up without television up until high school and then it was just a black and white television. I would walk by this electronic store and I would look at some of the TV’s they had in the window and I remember watching “Hop Along Cassidy Show” and I started going Page 2 �there Saturday mornings at a certain time to watch some of the programs. But we would sit around at night and listen to the radio, especially ball games. Baseball was really big in our house, listening to it. There were kids would just hang out in high school, we would go to these hamburger or we called them tenderloin shops. They would make tenderloin or barbecue sandwiches and those were the hang outs on Friday and Saturday nights. Everybody would work on their cars, the guys would work on their cars on Saturdays, shine them all up, have a date, go out to the movies or something common there’d be groups. Then we’d go get something to eat, but we’d just drive around and around and around until we finally thought we found a cool spot to park and then we’d park and order. The waitresses were just, we called them car hops, they would roller skate out, take your order, put a tray on the side of your car, then roller skate back into the diner. They’d have your food and roller skate out with a tray full of food and drinks and then you would leave a tip for them, special on the tray. Some of our, they were women all young women, some of them were our friends, high school students. Music was real popular, we listened to a lot of music, but then it was forty five singles, and you’d get one good song on one side and you’d get some awful song on the back side that wasn’t very popular, but that’s the way they sold them. Back then you could go into record stores and you could ask for a record and you could go into a booth and listen to it to see if you wanted to buy it. Radio music stations were on all the time, whenever we were in our cars. The car was the single most important thing in our lives back in high school. It represented freedom, the area that I grew up in you would, it was surrounded by corn fields, going out for a drive on these gravel roads. We’d go to strip mines, which were mines, surface mining. They’d be filled up with water and we’d go swimming and it was very care free compared to today’s world. The classes were easy and it was just like grade school but just a little bit more difficult. But the teachers were laid back and everybody was kinda had their own rhythm and it wasn’t fast. Periodically we would have these air raid drills were we would all hide underneath our desk waiting for a nuclear bomb to drop, all the way through grade school and high school we’d be doing that and then you’d have tornado watch and if a tornado came by you’d have to go into the hall way away from glass, so it seems like we were always preparing for something. I remember helping my father build a bomb shelter down in the basement with sand bags. There was a period of time where everybody was building bomb shelters. The situation with the Soviet Union was very tense. I can remember in high school the news of the Talcon resolution where supposedly the Turner was attacked by north Vietnamese speed boats, later we found out in history that wasn’t true at all. But I remember the country gearing up for war and I remembering that all of us young men were senior year were just saying, “Yea” rooting the United States on “Yeah lets go over there, let’s make them pay.” I went on to college; it was a small number of friends. Most of the kids from that graduating class worked Keystone, Steel and Wire, Caterpillar, or local lumber yard or just local jobs or they’d go back and work on the family farm. They, they didn’t go off to college. And very very few women went off to college. They were supposed to just stay at home, get a job, and wait to be married. My parents and many parents back then wouldn’t put money into a girls education, because they figured she was just gonna get married, have babies, and start a family and her husband would take care of her. I remember Sputnik when that came out; going outside to watch it and the country had another wave of fear. I don’t know what of, but I think they were just afraid of the advanced technology of the Soviet Union. But I remember then the space race started. But more money was poured into the schools for science and math. There was a sudden interest in it and I rode that wave. I did very well in math and science and that’s what I majored in, in college and I got a scholarship that paid for my tuition. Page 3 �I had to get a part time job to pay for the rest of my room and board, but I also was able to get what they called “National Defense Loan.” They were education loans that they made available especially for science majors and I borrowed some money from that program. I was premedical, enjoyed the studies, but the war was heating up in 1966. A classmate of mine that we grew up as friends through grade school, through high school, and went off to college together, came into my dorm room late one evening and knocked on the door. I let him in, he was a bit drunk, and he said “let’s drop outta school and enlist before the war was over.” And it was just before exams so I said, “Good idea, okay and so we got, we drove into a train station and jumped on a train up to Chicago and enlisted, he enlisted into becoming a war officer flying helicopters, which made sense because he had dropped out of college that whole year and was spending the tuition money that his parents were giving him for flying lessons and he was just living in the dorm. They didn’t know… the school didn’t even know that he wasn’t registered for classes. Now I went to small college in southern Illinois, they called Eastern Illinois University, very beautiful area, very beautiful college and I liked it, but I felt like that the communists were killing Catholics, they were killing Christians and I had to go do something about that. So I enlisted into an army security agency, knowing I’d go into language training. That’s what they told me and indeed that’s what happened. Went off to basic training, didn’t see Gary for a long time, quite a few years. Had language training in North Vietnamese in Washington D.C. I was stationed at Arlington hall our buildings were at the south post of what’s Arlington Cemetery. And I’d go into town, D.C. every morning with a coat and tie and no military I.D. go into the basement of one of the large buildings on Connecticut Avenue and we’d start the day at nine o’clock for classes and only Vietnamese was spoken during the day, during class times. We’d have short break for lunch, where’d we go upstairs, go out somewhere get something to eat and come back down. And we were trained in vocabulary on conversational and on listening we had headphones, we’d have to listen to tapes. Try to translate them or at least get a gist of the conversation. We did that for, oh god, quite a few months until November and then I was pulled out and ordered to Vietnam and I remember I went by myself, the other class mates were scattered around. People were taking different languages at that time. There was a small group taking that dialect and I don’t know where the other guys went, but I wound up in Quan Trii. I remember getting off the airplane, I had a khaki uniform; I didn’t have my utilities then and just being hit by this massive hid heat and just all kinds of smells. Most distinguishing smell was diesel fuel burning, it was covering the field. Later found out that, that’s how, that was the sewage system emptying, emptying the trenches and then poor guys would have to stand there in diesel fuel. Oh that was sick. I turned over my orders, I was told I was gonna be listening to tapes that were collected from the Hociman trail and translating them, trying to distinguish between Chinese and different dialects of Vietnamese (JFC sneezes a couple times) but to my surprise I was signed to a platoon of south Vietnamese rangers and spent my time in Vietnam up in the mountains on the smaller areas of the Hociman trail JFC: Well do you wanna go into detail about what happened in Vietnam? JAC: Well I can just say being a very strong catholic boy to being hit with the immorality and the viciousness and just the insanity of war. It was very hard on me. It was very violent and it seemed senseless. And I went from a college student to being somebody that became nb and could kill other people. And it was a very fast transition. None of my training ever prepared me for that. And I was very Page 4 �isolated, I was with Vietnamese, there was an American officer and maybe a sergeant assigned to these ten man patrols. We’d go out for ten to twelve to fourteen days up in the mountains looking for the trails, looking for the North Vietnamese trails and setting up ambushes. And my task was to send up a, the Vietnamese would set up a long antenna for me on the side facing Lousts the plains and I’d do electronic intercept. That was basically my job, that and taking samples back of any ammunitions or rice or supplies to bring them back. JFC: Okay and how did your experience in Vietnam come to an end? And what was it like coming back? JAC: Yea... Well the world had certainly changed. JFC: Well how’d you come, what happened? JAC: We set up an ambush at night something we did every time we were out there, yea but this time it wasn’t just a bunch of young men and women pushing these heavily loaded bikes. They made these bicycles, the Chinese bicycles, they were real sturdy and they had petals but the petals were always strapped to the bike and there’d be hundreds of pounds saddled on to these bikes and these kids would just push this up and down the mountains. Not all the supplies were coming down through the plains down below which was being bombed all the time, but as the bombing got heavier they started pushing more supplies south through the mountains, through the jungle. Eh we set up an ambush, but we wound up tripping an ambush. They were regular North Vietnamese soldiers and they had RPG’s which you see on TV now you know the big head rocket. Well we’d never encountered them before they were anti-tank armor personal rockets not for infantry use, but they brought them down, they were very effective, they blew up the whole line we had. All they had to do was hit a tree. Hit some brush to set them off and then you just had, not just the metal shrapnel but you’d have just wood chips. Everything became a shrapnel. It blew up our whole line. a young guy from Wyoming was next to me and he just, he was eviscerated and everything was ripped out of him. I had a head wound and concussion and some wounding on my side, left side, but it was the concussion that I was just lost, I was just... I didn’t know where I was. I couldn’t see very well. Cause it’s just flashes of light then it’s dark then it’s flashes of light and I lost my shotgun, I was blown back quite a ways from where I was. And I remember just picking up... I can’t even remember his name now. Picking him up in a fireman’s carry and running out away down this kind of a hill area, gully. And stopping and found out he was dead and I just put him down and all I had left was my they called a K bar. Eh it’s a big knife. Bayonet. But that’s all I had. Wandering around and finally settling in under a tree and the greatest fear I had. I had two fears. One was being captured because they don’t keep prisoners up in the mountains unless you were a pilot or an officer. Nobody took prisoners there. You had no place to put them. So I didn’t want to be captured but the second fear I had and maybe that was the most and greatest fear was the tigers. Tigers always followed us. They knew that at some point they were gonna have a meal. And when they heard gun fire they would come running for dinner, it was like ringing the dinner bell. So they were there, I could hear them. And I must have stayed up all night, with my night out… knife out… wondering if I was gonna be eaten hehe. *Cough*. It was like living in a zoo, I mean there were just…the snakes were poisonous, h the ant bites would swell up. Leaches were everywhere, they weren’t just in the water, they were in the leaves, the trees, there was nothing comfortable about it. That’s where I got malaria. I Page 5 �just thought I had h an infection… I had chills… and most of the Vietnamese had it too, dysentery. h, we all had just a quarter, a small area of the map where the jp-off point was. They had different points where you were supposed to rendezvous if something were to happen. I had a compass, I found a trail that went down to the other side of the mountain range, I made it back. I was lucky to make it back. And there was, there was only five other people that were there and they were all wounded to some extent. And then we were able to…we were able to call in a pickup, but we had to hike another five or six miles, get down to a lower area, that was level enough, for the helicopters to come in. There wasn’t any way that we could rope up. Well, that’s how I h, how I wound up getting a ticket back home, not because of the severity of the wounds, but because of the concussion… my brain was just jumbled. I couldn’t speak or understand Vietnamese anymore, I couldn’t pick up the towns… it’s a tonal language. Every vowel has six tones that can be used, and any vowel within a word can change the meaning of the word. And just being a westerner was very hard to pick up on the language to begin with but after the head wound, h, it was impossible. I couldn’t make any sense of it. And when you’re in the field everyone is just yelling and cursing and everything come very fast… it’s not like learning Spanish listening to a slower conversation. Well I was of no use to them so they sent me back to be checked out at Walter Reed Army Hospital in D.C… and I did and they found out that I actually had malaria. That was… that was the worst of it, but they patched everything else up on me. The head wound now they had identified as tragic head injury, but back then it was just a head wound. Now I had headaches and I was confused for quite some time… I spent a year in and out of Walter Read. This was just being treated for the wounds and then for the h malaria but the malaria cause an autoimmune disease called black water fever where my immune system attacked my kidneys and I was losing my kidney function. In Walter Read I was put in a ward of guys that had renal problems, and there were actually quite a few malaria cases there. And Walter Reed had a long history of, of doing research on malaria. *yawn* yeah that was something to be in the hospital for such a long time. From that hospital I, I learned of Martin Luther King’s assassination, Bobby Kennedy’s assassination, the democratic convention that just went crazy… in Chicago. I was out on pass when that happened, I was at some guys house that I got to know cause I’d had, I wound up having a part time job that turned into a full time job as a bartender when I was out of the hospital. Which… I just couldn’t leave the area, cause I had to keep going back to the hospital. But they let me out longer and longer… but they wouldn’t cut me loose because obviously security wanted me back… hehe they had too much money invested in h… ability I no longer possessed. They claimed it was psychological, and they were just waiting for me to snap out of it which really never happened. I h, I remember a lieutenant, first lieutenant showing up at the clipboard, and just reaming me out; told me I needed to get back to my unit and that I had to sign all these papers that if I said anything to anybody about what I did even if I was in Vietnam, and anything I may have been doing or training I had received, I would end up at Fort Leavenworth making big rocks into small rocks. That was… I believed them… hehe cause they were the army, they could do anything…you could just disappear. See, my parents didn’t know I was in Vietnam. They had me write these letters, h, before I was shipped over, and they mailed them out periodically. And I never received any… well… I received a couple letters that were forwarded to me, but it was out of Arlington Hall, the mail had to be addressed to Arlington Hall. Arlington Hall was still the center of Army security in the States. That’s where all the spooks for the army work out of. Yup. I saw the democratic convention, I flew there, the next day after the first day of the rioting, and it was a police riot, I was there then standing in front of the hotel when a group of Afro- Page 6 �American kids had all these bottles and they started throwing them over the white middle class protesters at the police, and they were just laughing… they thought it was the greatest fun. And then they took off just as the police started charging, beating everybody up and throwing gas. They thought it was hilarious that all the white people were beating up the white people hehe. It was… it was… well I was still standing there, I was still for the war, I was still on active duty just standing there thinking, well, nothing is gonna happen to me. It was complete chaos… I was choking on gas and there was a phalanx of cops running my way and they were just beating everybody, they weren’t asking any questions. They were beating cameramen, h, so I kinda was standing there for a while thinking we could have a conversation but it became obvious that nobody was asking any questions… I took off running with everybody else. And there was a small group of us that split off, we didn’t go to the Lincoln Park, we ran over to the commuter trains, train tracks, and dropped down, I don’t know, it was like ten feet, I remember with this group just running down the tracks. What the heck am I doing this for, but I did it. And I was active; I went out every day for the rest of that week. I met Abby Hoffman, I met Alex Ginsburg, I met Tom Hayden, he was the only one wearing a white shirt and a skinny black tie. He was the only one that was really serious. h, these all became big names in some trials later, but Abby Hoffman was funny. I always quote the head of the Yippee movement, or one of the heads, which was funny because they had no heads, it was just pure energy. I remember being trained how to fall down and cover my nuts and my head when being beaten. And I actually ended up taking this seriously because I saw enough people being knocked around with nightsticks. I remember one day, Dick Gregory, the comedian, was there. And all these delegates from the convention showed up and there was gonna be a nice peaceful walk, south. Police had set it up, said just move away from the park, Lincoln Park, and walk south. They were gonna be on the streets. And so they had police cars in the front, clearing the way, so everyone was walking down the street, nice sunny day, Dick Gregory was just cracking jokes, I was up toward the front… listening to him. And we walked down a little further. And he said “well, we ought to get up on the sidewalk.” I said, “well, ok”. But when we started getting up on the sidewalk, we noticed that all the delegates had started disappearing, cause they wore a red ribbon to identify themselves as delegated on the floor. And Dick Gregory disappeared, just turned around and he was gone. You could see people were being hustled out of the crowd. So they took all the leadership, the delegates, and then there was just a crowd of people up on the sidewalk, like four abreast, going back about two miles for all I knew. And then the National Guard came in. They had the National Guard come in to take the streets all the way up. Or all the way towards the back of the line. And the National Guard running right in front, I was right in the front, blocking the front, with their rifles and gas masks on. I’m going “ohhh, this isn’t good.” And then the guys, the national guard troops got up on the trucks, standing on the hoods of the trucks, and they had these, well I thought they were flamethrowers, then I go “oh no, that’s CS gas.” We used that in Vietnam, ya know, and it was considered illegal, it’s a nerve gas, from the Geneva Convention. And that was it, I tried to get out, tried to burst out of this line and one of the guardsmen tried to, , butt me with his rifle and I flipped it around and hit him and butted him in the face and just took off. But I only got to a couple steps, and I got sprayed with the gas too, the stuff shots out like fifteen or twenty feet. And they sprayed the whole crowd. Then I remember running down the alley, , my eyes were going in different directions, I’d lost my mobility, I just got dizzy, and I dropped. I dropped down to the ground. Then I remember being hauled and thrown into a paddy wagon; it was filled with people, and the cops threw in a couple Page 7 �canisters of gas, closed it up, we were all… and I had been exposed to regular tear gas in the service. You have to go into a room and take off your mask and you gotta give your name and ID number and all this stuff it doesn’t take long for you to run out of air and you breathe it and you’re supposed to be in there for so long and it just burns and itches… burns your lungs. So… it was awful. I couldn’t believe they did that. Then I remember we came out at some parking structure, and I remember the wagon was going down, it was curving around going down, and we were in some parking structure, and it was all military, national guard, and police down there, and they were unloading these paddy wagons, and having everybody run out. But they had a little gauntlet of the police, with their sticks, and they were swinging, hitting everybody, as we ran out. Nobody read any rights haha, I remember, the Quakers kept saying “everybody tape a dime to your leg cause you get to make one phone call”. Well, we were in a parking structure, there was no phone, hahaha a dime wasn’t going to do you any good. So I was wounded on my left side where I got scars and this Chicago policeman just waylaid me and opened up my skin and rolled it back over my scalp. I was bleeding profusely and once again my head got knocked up, knocked around. And then we were put in a line and supposedly we were being processed and I’m bleeding like crazy but nobody helped. And I get up there and I show my military ID and I start cursing at them. I say, hahaha, I say “how did this happen to me? What’s going on?” It was like a goolaug(?). And I was very much for the war, you know, I was still in the service and I had just been on pass from Walter Read and I was gonna go back. And I called the digs now, the thug just looked up at me and said “get your ass on a plane out of here” and he threw the ID at me. God I had just gotten back from Vietnam, I was wounded, trying to heal, trying to understand what was going on in the country, and I was beaten and gassed and then told to get out of there, and I was from Illinois, and a Chicago cop is telling me to disappear. Well that pissed me off, so I went up, they had aid stations for the protestors, I got bandaged up, they just put tape to close the wound, they didn’t get sewed. And I stayed around. I met another group of Vietnam veterans that were there, and there was a group called “Vietnam Veterans Against the War”, and I still have one of the pins, and I joined. I joined. And from then on I became very active against the war, I became contentious of chapter counselor, oh what a time to be in the Midwest. When I went back to college at Bradley University, it had just looked like America had gone crazy. The Americans had been so pro the war, and if you were against the war, even if you were a veteran, you were communist. It was just surrealistic… moment where on college campuses, part of the citizenry didn’t like you as a veteran cause you went to an immoral war, and then you have all these American Legionnaires and World War Two veterans that just hated you because you were losing the war, and then demonstrating against it. For them it was like an act of treason. Nobody really liked you back then if you were a veteran. So… I just didn’t tell people I was a veteran anymore. Went on to graduate school, I didn’t tell anybody. I used my GI bill to go to college and then graduate school, but didn’t tell anybody I was a veteran. JFC: Ok, well m…how were your experiences at graduate school and what did you get a degree in? And after graduate school. JAC: Well, I wound up having, before I went to graduate school, I wound up having a kidney transplant; I had lost my kidneys from the malaria. I got a kidney from my father which wasn’t a good match but it kept me alive. I had been on renal dialysis for two years. I finished up undergraduate on a dialysis Page 8 �machine. They were just starting; it was a very crude technique back then. But after the transplant I felt better, and I started, h, well I was a pre-med major, I started in a MD, PhD program at CL University medical school, and wound up just getting the PhD, it was too hard to do both majors. God, once I got into clinicals it was just, my first rotation was obstetrics and this woman had a really hard birthing and it was just too much blood and screaming. I said “I’m out of here, I don’t need this.” So I went into medical research and got a PhD. I did research at the brain institute at UCLA and taught for three years. Then moved up to Seattle University and taught pre-med classes. I just had to get away from the pressure of doing research. I had a large research project that was funded, accepted and funded by NIH, and I was only about six months into it, when this whole Star Wars anti-missile defense theory was started by Regan, and Regan went in and stole all the money from NIH, he just took it. That was congress grant for biomedical research, he just took it. And he gave it over to the Star Wars program, and I had to stop my research program and I had to kill all my kittens and cats which was… well I was doing research on brain development. I remember just being so disgusted that I’d spent, not only going into the service, and it was really rejected by that service time, and then I suffer from it physically and emotionally. And I spend all this money and all these years of training to get to the point where I was just starting to be productive in my research, and once again, an idiot politician blocked me. It took all my research away; it took all my resources away. And I had to fire the veterinarian and the technician… I could have kept plugging along but I was just so furious, what’s the point? And I, h, I finished up my contract at UCLA and moved up to Seattle, Washington, taught undergraduate pre-med classes and I just loved it, it was a lot of fun. I didn’t have the pressure of a big university. JFC: Ok, well m, I guess we will keep going on to personal life. What happened and sort of what you did after, after your time being a professor. JAC: Yeah, well, *clears throat* I went back to an old colleague…I had a profound spiritual experience, I was with some Jesuits on the coast, I had this deep spiritual experience right in the middle of mass. I just got up and went out and was wondering in the woods somewhere on the Oregon coast… and my friend Andy Duffner, Jesuit Priest, who was a physicist, we got to know each other teaching at Seattle University came out and got me and said “It’s all gonna be ok, just rest”. I remember bubbling to myself “I’m not gonna be a priest, I’m not gonna be a priest” I entered the discernment program the Jesuits and I went in to get a Masters of Divinity. And I was just gonna enter the Bishop process when I met your mother on a backpacking trip, who happened to be an Episcopal priest, and still is. And she was cute… it’s just strange how that worked out too. We took this trip with two Catholic nuns… great women, up into the Canadian Cascades… up where the Rockies melt into some of that range, at a park called Cathedral Park. And it was high up in the range and you could stand up there, the upper part of the mountain, and you could see all the mountains in the Canadian Cascades going all the way down into the States. It was just beautiful. I brought my backpacking fishing fly rod and I had been fishing in the upper alpine lakes… there were little trout up there, and your mother would sit down with the book close to me and she would just watch me casting and then struck up a conversation. After a few days of that, of hiking, I would go fishing… we developed a relationship. I mean a social relationship. I went back down to the Oregon coast to get ready to the nunishipt(?). She would write me cards and letters. I would walk into town, pacific city, to look at them. I was looking forward to them. Then all of a sudden, Page 9 �they stopped. I’d walk in, there would be no mail and I just felt this great loneliness. So m, I went back to Seattle and we started dating. I put the Jesuits on hold, and they were fine by that, they really want you to know that this is what you want to do. And, jeez, after about a year, year and a half of dating we were engaged and we got married. And after two years you came along. That changed everything cause at that time I was the director of the “spiritual exercises of everyday life” which is a large retreat program throughout the Peugit Sound Area for the Jesuits. I was working as a layperson, and when Mom got pregnant with you I had to decide whether I was going to be Episcopalian or Roman Catholic. It was quite a shock to see a pregnant priest, for my generation. Your mom with her collar up on the alter rail being seven or eight months pregnant, it was just h… I had to make a decision. And so I entered into the Episcopal Church and that’s where you were raised, in that church, through your toddler years, until we moved down to Tacoma. So I taught part time and I was running this program and your mother and I raised you. JFC: Okay. This is the second half of the interview with Joseph Cospito, done on March 11, 2012, at 3:21 pm in our home of Northville, MI. and, I’m doing the interview. My name is Justin Cospito. , last thing we talked about was when I was born in Seattle, so let’s continue from there. JAC: *Cough+…the area that we live in in Seattle wasn’t very nice. But it was almost call the, would be called here in this area the inner city. It wasn’t very nice. We lived in a little valley, and your mother had bought a home. That was the original farm house in this valley. I spent a lot of time fixing it up, and did a lot of work. I had fixed up my house and I was living in... I kept it and rented it out to some friends. When I worked on your mother's house, and that's where you lived. ...we were making dilly beans. We liked to can together and late smer, and she was very, very pregnant. We were just waiting for the contractions to start when they called the water to break. And it did on this Labor Day weekend, so we went in, rushed mom into the hospital and they said oh no her contractions...she’s not ready yet. So then we left and we turned around and came right back. They admitted her, and she was in labor for 24 hours and was absolutely exhausted. She was 40 years old. It was pretty hard to get pregnant, and we just were so happy. I was there. And then the doctor called for an emergency C section. Your heart beat was slowing down, you got into some trouble, and your mother was just exhausted. So we went into the surgery room, and I’ve got pictures of the doctor make and incision and putting her left hand down on moms belly, and your butt popped out first. And I just pulled you out by your legs, and there you were. And, if I hadn’t been around the hospital so much I would have probably just dropped to the ground. And I thought it was just the most beautiful and interesting thing. And they cleaned you up and handed you to me, they finished working on your mother. And, you were unhappy, with quite a way to come into the world, being just dragged out immediately, but you were wrapped up and I held you, they had a little cap on you, and it was just an amazing event. Well, we got out, you...you, they said they did different tests and you were just fine, but you were hurt. And we didn’t realize how badly hurt you were. You were crying all the time. I’d stay up at night with you, holding you, and moving you until you fall asleep. I would just hold you and then try to get some sleep. And we would walk around the neighborhood late at night or 2, 3 in the morning to get you to go to sleep. That was the only time you slept, when there was movement, when you were being moved. Or I would put you in the car and drive all over for a good part of the night. I got tired, you mother had some complications to the surgery so Page 10 �she was in bed a long time. She got an infection. We worked part time, both your mother and I, and we took care of you part time. We were with you; sometimes I was with you all the time. We did things together, you and I had put a backpack on, and we hiked all over the place. We’d spend a good part of the day just hiking around. I got in good shape and you were happy. One thing you wouldn’t do was keep a hat on your head. I kept buying these hats; it took me awhile to figure out to safety pin it to a cord with your clothes. I would put it on and you would just take it off, and you would be angry. You didn’t want anything on your head, but I had to protect you from the sun. That part I remember, of going back a number of times looking for your hat. Those were good years. You’re a very exciting baby. We knew you were very bright, and eyes...your mother and I just went crazy about a bunch of things because your mother and I were so happy to have a baby being so old. We... [Laugh], our place was just filled with toys. But the one thing you played with that you loved was the Tupperware, and the pots and pans. So we had, so it was safe for you to take them out we had to put locks on all the doors except for that one, so you could take them out. When winter came, I bought this little play structure and put it together, they were usually outside but I had one room for you to play in, and I had all these Japanese big square pillows surrounding the play structure, so if you fell of you would just fall into a pillow. And you climbed on that oh… I guess, I’m not sure when you started walking; we’ve got in your baby book, but even before you were walking you would pull yourself up on it. And you identified with it very, very quick. And there was a little slide to it, so for a couple years that was your thing to goof around, crawl in and out of, and pull yourself up, go down the slide, sometimes you’d get up there and just let go and fall back on the pillows. We did many bus trips downtown with the science muse, to the zoo that was our favorite outings because it had big open areas where we could just run and you liked looking at the animals. And we'd stop and looking at the tiger. It was always scary, always scary for me. Well that was the life in Seattle, and then we moved to Coma, your mother was called to another church to be the director, called the Church of the Good Shepard. We found an older 1946 or 1942 house that was built by a very famous house builder in that area. It was all cedar, gold shake, and it was on two acres of land. That was not developed. It was full of brush, but we really liked it, I saw a lot of potential in it. but I’ve always done is to buy older houses and fix them up while I lived in them, and turn around and sell them and make a profit and I had to live free. And I did that for years in all the cities I lived in. so I bought the house the same way, wanting to fix it up. And I did over the years. Oh, we moved down in 1997. We left there in 2005, so that was 8 years. And 8 years I put a lot of hard work into it. I was still director of the, of the retreat for the spiritual exercises in everyday life. We had a training program, and did spiritual reaction, I saw quite a few people a week. And then I was a parent. Then, just because things got quiet, mom and I decided to adopt a sister. A Chinese sister, we went to china and we met [Lee-Joan?] And that was really a horrible, ugly, ugly American Time. We just felt so awful, Lee-Joan had lived with their biological mom for about a year, and she was left in a market, and then somebody found her and brought her to the police station. So she’s one year old and she’s in the orphanage system in china, which is really a very, not a very system. They put a couple kids per crib together; the poor babies don’t get much attention at all. But then she was in foster care and bonded to this other family, and they loved her. It was multi-generational, and they didn’t want to give her up. Of course we didn’t know all of this at the time. We were just wondering what happened to our baby because everyone else in the group had received their daughter, it was a couple days afterwards and we found out they, they went out to get her. And the foster mom had forced them, put them in a car and forced them to come to the Page 11 �hotel. I just received a knock on the door, and a baby was handed to me...it was Lee-Joan, and I hadn’t expected it that way. And the foster mom was just crying and crying. And we felt like the ugly American, who here are given a baby girl that was very, very happy. She wasn’t institutionalized, she was with a loving family and they wanted to adopt her, but the Chinese government wouldn’t let them. These foster parents still email us; I have a couple emails from them a couple times a year. And then we send pictures of Le Jone back to them. It was a year and half later when we went back and got Kaylee, your other sister... Now Kaylee, Kaylee was 18 months, and I forgot how old you were. And we...I went over with my sister, and mom stayed home to take care of you and Lee-Joan. First time we had left you we went to get Lee-Joan and left you with a couple and that really was very hard on you guys, and, the husband was. And especially trying to force you to eat food. I was not happy about that when we found this out...so we weren’t going to leave you with anybody this time. One of us was going to stay, and that was your mother. You and Lee-Joan were very, very close. She just ran to you the first time she saw you. And you just rolled around and were laughing and it was very, very warm and sweet. So Kaylee we picked up and we picked her up in a hall where all the other families had babies with 18 months old. I can tell that she was just different. That she were not like Lee-Joan, the sense that she wasn’t crying at all. The...the foster mother that she was with, the Chinese put them in foster care for...once they have match, they keep 'me with the foster mother for about 6 months before you come over and get all the paperwork...and finish the adoption. Then you stay in China for 2 weeks, just to acclimate. , that was very good. Kay was a character, she would just wave at people, shed just draw attention, they’d say she’s just so cute, and I’d draw attention cause were in a smaller town and there weren’t that many Americans. And most people in our party would leave the hotel, but Kaylee and I just went out all the time. This time I had her in a stroller 'cause I couldn’t carry her. On one trip we went to this Buddhist temple and she was on the bus and I was holding her. And she just started struggling to get away, she wanted to go outside and the bus was moving, and she just flipped forward and I threw out 2 vertebrae in my neck. It was so painful, I woke up the following morning, and my head was off to the side and couldn’t even stand up straight. Fortunately there as a chiropractor in our group and she kept putting it back and we flew the next day, flew out. It was a lot of pain and she was a handful. It was, long flight, like a 14 hour flight to come back to Seattle, but you met us with mom and Lee-Joan, as soon as we got off the gate and you guys just wrapped around Kaylee and holding her making her laugh and she was happy. She wasn’t happy on the trip over, but she was happy. And both of your sisters, cause the time is just the opposite. Both of your sisters for a month or so just didn’t sleep at night. They were awake. It took a while for them to get adjusted. Life was very good; it was a very nice place. You were going to a private school, and I had the girls, and worked on the house. I put a fence all the way around the property because I bought two donkeys at a school auction, thought it was a good idea at the time. But I put in a lot of work and a lot of money for those donkeys. Fenced in about an acre, big thick planks 'cause donkeys like to lean against the fence. And then I build ‘em a little barn. Around the house and our place there was a beautiful view, also we had 2 donkeys, we had chickens, what else did we have? Ducks, we had bunny rabbits, and a lot of slugs, about a herd of slugs. The only animal that would eat a slug was a duck. So we would laugh, you guys would just laugh watching duck trying to eat a giant slug, one of those banana slugs. Then we had little ducks running around, little chickens, little chicks running around. The chickens flew up in the tree. I had that sauna built, it was outside. It was built underneath these giant cedar trees. And the chickens went up in those trees, and those that couldn’t make it would Page 12 �not last into the season. The coyotes would get them. Then at night, we this big owl, and picked off a few of the chickens. One day, I remember hearing one of the chicks peeping really loud. And I kept looking around and couldn’t see him. And then I looked up and there was a crow flying with one of the chicks. And I chased after it, it went into the woods, and the woods were so thick I couldn’t follow it any further, but it was about a month after that that the chickens got even. A crow somehow got caught by the chickens, and the chickens killed it. All the chickens kept running in from all around the area, were pecking at it. And a large flock of crows starting coming. So there were the crows against the chickens, and the chickens won. Soon as the crow was more than dead, they just scratched and went back to their, the work of just eating bugs and laying eggs. That was a beautiful place. I just felt so peaceful there. We remodeled the kitchen; put a second floor on it. It got to be a huge project. I poured a lot of money into it. We were happy. Your aunt and uncle...uncle bonnie [Laughing] I mean Aunt Bonnie and Uncle Jim were close by and we had those two beaches just down the hill we could go to. There was a fishing pier; we had friends throughout the neighborhood. I remember all the kids would come by our little farm and just look at the animals and just watch them. In the morning some of the older people went for walks and would always bring carrots around for the donkeys, or apples. What do you remember the place? JFC: Just there was a lot of property. That just liked walking around. JAC: mm...yup. We had woods, we had pasture, had that big hill behind us. We made friends with our neighbors, Sam and Martha, and their daughter. Our girls got close to them. Sarah, Lee-Joan, and Kaylee just hung out all the time. They’d play in that hill between our two houses. Now they’re still close, they moved to Toronto and we still see each other, at least 3 or 4 times a year. And the girls are always talking on the phone, and now on the computer they do Skype. ... JFC: Well, I mean after that we moved to Michigan and we ... JAC: yup, we moved to Michigan. Your mother got a parish, it was, for me it was hard breaking because it was hard, I thought that was the house we were going to retire in. I poured so much of myself into it. Building a barn, a shed, a sauna, putting all the fences in. But, it seemed like it was time to go, so we moved to Michigan, were your mom’s the priest director at Saint John’s Church. And she’s pretty happy. She...she loves her work. You guys seemed to adjust pretty quick... you had the hardest time. It was middle school. You were starting 7th grade. You had an awful experience in 6th grade there at browns point. [Cough...] we never realized actually how horrible it was and ma was just tied up in her work so much, and I was tied up trying to save the Seabury school from going under financially. We just didn’t pick up on the...what was happening to you. You changed dramatically. JFC: well that’s alright. . Well, is there anything that , that you want to touch on. I don’t think...what...what ah, talk about, well you said you wanted to say some more about Bartonville. I don’t think I ever covered up what year you were born JAC: Oh yeah, I was born in 1946. Your grandpa was in china for a couple years and earned the point system. He was able to leave the theatre before the war was winding down. But they hadn’t dropped Page 13 �the bomb on japan at that time. But Germany, Europe, peace was over. They declared the war was needed in Europe. So the let him come home, where he had to fly in over the Himalayas. He was driven back. They made a road, a trail. So he was driving back on the road in a jeep. He got back, married your mother. He met my mother in a town called Bartonville, Illinois. That’s where she grew up. In a big 'ol farm house with two sisters. My father was stationed in Purea when he left Greenland. Where he went through training, working with these mules, he met the three sisters. And my grandfather and grandmother were old world hospitality. They would come on Sundays, 3 different men, and they would Sunday...Sunday... afternoon dinner together. And they did that for quite a few months. And all three sisters married the boys that they brought home for dinner. And throughout the war they wrote to each of them. So my father came back, got married, and took my mother to New Jersey where his family was, the Italian side of the family. Became pregnant, and that was me. I was born in in 1946 in October in jersey City, New Jersey. JFC: okay. . You good? JAC: yeah. JFC: Okay. END OF INTERVIEW Page 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7dc4b58386fee1ce5a7880e76ff87dcb.mp3 be051150223b91770862b4aba7835d39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Cospito_Joseph Title A name given to the resource Joseph Cospito audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cospito, Joseph Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cospito, Justin Description An account of the resource Joseph Cospito likes working on his house, playing with his children, being a stay at home dad, and listening to books on audio tape. He is a retired science professor who is married to an episcopal priest. He discusses growing up in the fifties in Bartonville, Illinois. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-09 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25a34507c1ce9da731c7419251690859.pdf 17248a8ef004197bc13074555b8a720f PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Ryan Cronk Interviewers: Kalle Tucker, Rachael Berkenpas, and Tyler Nowak Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/2/2011 Biography and Description Ryan Cronk is a student at Grand Valley State University, double majoring in Accounting and Economics. Ryan is an active member of the LGBT community as well as the Delta Upsilon fraternity. Ryan passionately works to educate others on LGBT issues within the Grand Valley community. He discusses religion and what it is like to be a gay male at Grand Valley State University. Transcript CRONK: Ok, so …we were talking about religion. Anyways, I was raised with a couple of religions. , I actually went to a Baptist church at one point. , I went to like a Christian church, and we went to…I don’t know what you would call it…it was Christian, but it was just off like, I don’t know. Maybe it was just a different style because it wasn’t like, go sit in pews, and get like, talked at, it was called …Resurrection Life Church. So it’s like, it’s more of a modern type church. I mean, they had an on-stage band that used like guitars and drums and all that. Yeah, I mean it was like Christian based but it wasn’t like what I would think of as a “traditional” church where we went to like a Baptist church then a traditional Christian church then we went to Resurrection Life. , so anyway, and we had it with those…we had some bad things happen like my mom, when she was going through a divorce with my biological dad was actually why we got kicked out of the Baptist church because they don’t believe, , in divorce. Or at least that particular church didn’t believe in divorce unless it was the man leaving the woman. They believed that the woman couldn’t leave the man. So anyway we got kicked out of that one. So anyway, overall as a kid I never really like religion, I never really got exposed to, you know, the good side of religion. , so then like, like growing up, you know, I started looking into for myself and I decided that I wanted to give it a try again and it was actually last ser that I started going to a church downtown called Saint Marks, and the reason I decided to try them out and like, just open myself up to that again was because they actually display a LGBT flag on the side of their church. , and they are open and completely welcoming to all people. It’s not like “you have to fit our, you know, particular view”, and even though they have , their roots specifically Page 1 �in Catholicism and all that, they think that religion is meant for everybody and it’s not like you have to fit perfectly in line with what this says in order to believe it. So, and I found that great because I’m one of the people where I can believe in something, even it’s not 100% what I am, type thing. Like for me, I have a lot of values that fall in line, like, with Christianity and Catholicism. So, I mean, like, sex before marriage, I really don’t like that idea so stuff like that. So I mean it was just nice for me to find a healthy outlet to be able to just go and see other people who thought that way too and then hear them say, “you know, we’re absolutely fine with that, we’re glad that you, you know, were able to find us and have a place to come and not feel discriminated against” or you know, like, having that feeling of really, that really awkward feeling I guess of like, when you go into a church and it’s like “oh I believe this, this, and this and that’s fine, but then they’re like, and we hate gays.” So then you’re like “oh, hey everybody…” type thing. So, you know, I just didn’t have that feeling, so yeah, I think I am on a really good level with religion right now. , unfortunately my step dad has used religion has a weapon against me because he is 7th Day Adventist and the way I classify them is they are kinda halfway between Judaism and Christianity, so they do a lot of things like oh you can’t eat pork and I’m like well…I eat ham so ok, not gonna work with this religion right away. , and they have really anti-gay views and stuff like that so he uses that, he is at this highest religious point when he tries to discriminate against people like, he’s willing to use any religious excuse to say that person is horrible, unless its him. Then everything is fine. So, if I had just been going off his example, I would have hated religion but since I found it for myself, and something I agree with, over all I am on a good level with religion. I respect people that have strong religious beliefs even if, you know, that they don’t like me because I am glad they have something to believe in. Unfortunately I wish they could see people for the…persons…that they are. Sorry, sometimes my English and grammar suck when I try to make up words, but I wish they would just see people’s sides of it that yes, you can have your beliefs about what I do is wrong, but you shouldn’t hate me as a person. , so, that’s one of the reasons I was so scared in high school because we have more churches than restaurants, so, it was kinda scary the idea that all my friends would be more on the religious side rather than the person side. So yeah. BERKENPAS: When you came to Grand Valley, what kinds of things did you get involved in? CRONK: Let’s see, freshman year I actually moved into one of the traditional dorms called Copeland Living Center. So, I actually, the first thing I got involved with was my Community Council because I was in Student Council in high school, and in middle school, so to me that was like, the most close thing so I just kinda wanted that safe feeling of something familiar, but I also get involved with the LGBT Center right away, my first week of classes actually, I went in and at that point, you were still able to just go in and sit and hang out in the Center but they changed their policy on that just because, , they wanted to become more a professional office where people could come with problems rather than just a ton of people hanging out in there. , Page 2 �so anyway, I started hanging out at the LGBT Center as much as possible because it was just nice to have that feeling of oh, I don’t have to care at all in here. , I also got involved with the group Out and About which is kinda like the GSA here and its open to LGBT students as well as its allies. It’s a social group, their actually the ones who put on the drag show like two weeks ago. , they also do the coming out event around the clock tower where you can like, sign the big door. So yeah, they do a lot of stuff like that, like social things on campus. They’re not really activist related; at least I didn’t think so. But, I mean, I had a lot of fun in there. It wasn’t exactly what I was looking for out of my college experience just because a lot of the people in there, not to say they were bad people but like I said earlier, a lot of them just have more bitter views towards the, you know, straight community or people who don’t accept the LGBT community. I’m not, I’m not looking to hate people about it, it’s like, you know, I find it unfortunate that they feel that way but I just want to do everything I can to just, be nice to them and accept them, where, some of them had views like it’s us against them. That’s the problem, it’s like we can’t have that on both sides. So anyways, I just kinda distanced myself from groups like that or people like that just because, you know, that not what I wanted, that s not how I felt. But I did end up getting involved with the Residence Housing Association, which, I worked with people from all housing areas on campus to put on events and then I, later got involved with Greek Life. I mean, I just found a lot of good outlets for the different things. I mean, through Greek Life I have kinda been able to help with LGBT things too because I mean, through my own fraternity, , I’m actually the one to give the LGBT speech or whatever because , our headquarters says we have to have a meeting based on LGBT civil rights or whatever. It’s not anything big or fancy; it’s just kinda like terminology and stuff like that. So yeah, anyway, Grand Valley just offered so many like new things for me to do and new ways for me to express myself that I tried to take as most advantage of that as possible, especially right away. TUCKER: So how was it joining a frat, because everybody has that stereotypical idea, even if Grand Valley isn’t like that at all? CRONK: Well first of all, I joined a fraternity. I did not join a frat. So that’s something that personally, I have really strong views on because frat is the stereotype. Unfortunately we do have a frat or two on campus but, I am part of a fraternity. But yeah, it was really weird because I believed a lot of the stereotypes going in and I was scared because I thought stuff like hazing and you know, paddling and abuse, and stuff like that, I was worried that was going to happen especially if they found out I was gay. So, when I actually started rushing freshman year, I didn’t bring out, I didn’t deny the fact I was gay, but I definitely didn’t bring out that fact that I was. So, I mean, clearly if someone asked me I would say yes, but if no one asked I didn’t say anything. , and then I found out that’s not what it’s like here at all. , I mean Grand Valley with their strong anti-hazing policies, I mean that clears up 50% of the stereotypes like you know, things that I was scared about right there. , I thought they were going to be very close-minded Page 3 �in the way that, you know, it’s a bunch of straight guys that are testosterone driven, you know, sports, that’s it…type thing. , that wasn’t it at all. I mean I found a place, like with the one I ended up joining, I found a place where it’s like I haven’t played a sport since I joined. I think I participated in one game of ultimate Frisbee before I was like ok that was fun, time to be done. , I mean, in my own fraternity there’s 3 other gay guys so there are a few of us. We’re not a huge number, but our brothers do accept us. When it comes to things like our formals, one of my brothers who is gay ended up bringing a guy as a date and I mean everyone was fine with that. I ended up bringing a guy as a date, and they all treated him just as fine. It’s not like, you know, do you see who he brought? They didn’t care. We were all there to have fun and it was, you know, a date event so they are all very accepting. I mean we, the way my fraternity formed, we actually started it here on campus, Delta Upsilon, wasn’t here until the first semester of my freshman year. So, we ended up, just kinda being thrown together. With some of the fraternities, they are so well established that, you know, they have a mold, and they only recruit people who fit that exact mold, where as for us we were so far out of a mold, like we had people who were at so completely different ends of the spectrum. Like we had really conservative people and some really liberal, so we all kinda got mashed together. We, actually had one brother, I won’t say his name, but he was very against like, you know, gays. He had that view of they are horrible people and they are going to hell, type thing and now just to see the progress he has made after getting to know us, it’s like he has really done a 180. Not that he is like, an ally in the sense that he like, loves gay people and wants to be surrounded by them, but when it comes to us he is not as anti-gay people. So yeah, a lot of things I think I was worried about joining a fraternity and I think things people, , kinda expect that fraternities are going to do like oh, they’re going to hate their gay members, they’re gonna single them out, they’re gonna haze them extra just because whatever, none of that happens. Especially here at Grand Valley, not that I have become aware of anyways and it’s definitely not what I went through. I was very glad to have that, I think I’ve had a great experience and with things like Greek Allies and Advocates that they started now, I mean, they’re just really proving that Grand Valley is a safe place, but also the Greek system is a great place to be yourself. So, I got really fortunate with that overall. [Long Pause] CRONK: I have a question for myself that might help you guys out, how’s that? [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Ok one of things I do get asked is, like when did you know? , like how early or whatever. And, my response to that usually is, because people get it in their mind that either you wake up one morning and all of the sudden it’s like oh my God, I’m gay, I’m gonna be gay now…or, like you’ve known forever and you’ve just been hiding it forever. I’m neither one of Page 4 �those. , like, when I was little, when I say little I mean like 6 or something like that…, is the first memory I have of any, anything to indicate my orientation at the time. It didn’t mean anything to me but looking back I’m like “Oh, well…I wish I had understood what they meant”, you know, way back when because I have an older sister that would let me play with her Barbie dolls. Well, I used to like her Barbie dolls more than she did…like completely, and I used to wanna play with the Barbie herself, and you know, dress her up and all that and my sister kinda didn’t care, like she used to wanna make them fight and stuff. She did a re-enactment of the Real World with Barbie and she made them smack each other and it was like oh, that’s weird but I always wanted to dress them up. , so I mean that didn’t mean anything at the time because you know, I was six and I could play with Barbies if I wanted to, it didn’t matter. But…then I used to just notice, like even at that age I would notice men and like, you know, males more than I would women. You know, at that age I never had any inclination towards women but like, maybe it was because I was a guy I just noticed, like you know, males more in terms of idols or, you know, the shows I watched, I don’t know. At that time again it’s almost like, you know, normal child whatever. , then when I got to the age of 10, maybe 11, …I hadn’t started developed feelings for girls yet. , you know, people at that time had started like dating and I just, wasn’t interested in that. I really didn’t understand why you’d wanna have a girlfriend or anything like that. So… I started to realize that just wasn’t normal because everyone would tell me it wasn’t normal like oh, you know, you’re not developing feelings for women. You know, 13, when my hormones were supposed to be raging and I was supposed to being going gaga over girls and trying to impress them, I just thought I really don’t care, I don’t see what the big deal is. It really wasn’t until I was about 13 or 14 I finally learned what gay was. For me, up until that boy me being more attracted to men was just a feeling but it didn’t have a term, or like a concept behind it…it was just something I felt. It wasn’t until…actually I think it was on TV and they were talking about, something like, gay rights and it was some kind of talking about marriage and you know, men marrying men, and I could relate the idea of marriage like “Oh, a man and a woman love each other they get married and that’s what you call a family.” Then I heard about marriage between two men and they called that gay, and I was like “Oh, well…I eventually want to get married to a man, so wait, what’s gay?” So, one day I went online and looked up gay and of course, Google or whatever search engine, brought up a ton of porn sites and I didn’t really know what that was so I went down and somehow I eventually found out, I think I ended up Webstering gay men and I still had, you know at 13, no idea what that meant. , but it just kinda attached a label to it…so, that was really my first exposure to what gay was. I went from being, you know, a normal kid that had feelings to who I was attracted to, to a kid that was gay and attracted to men, type thing. So, you know, that’s weird I kinda stopped being innocent on the idea of, you know, what LGBT is and all that and kinda of, moving into more 14/15 is when I was really getting ready to come out because it was really starting to build up like that’s who I really was, like I could identify my own feelings and I was starting to relate to Page 5 �them, finally. So that’s when I like, truly became a gay male more or less, because I had started to accept myself for that. [Ryan laughs] Ryan continues: And then I hit like, 16, when I came out. I actually came out as a bi-sexual. I talked to my mom like “Listen, I’m gay but I’m actually like, bi.” because I wanted to be at least bi, because it was like if I can’t be straight then at least let me be bi because, like, I can try to fit in by dating girls and stuff like that and…that was a complete like, kinda wish I had but then I realized I was gay. I didn’t like both, I just liked men so that was kinda like, that was kinda the transition I went through…”I’m not straight, maybe I’m bi, no I’m gay.” type thing. TUCKER: So how active are you? Like, with your rights and stuff, do you…I don’t know how to say what I’m thinking I guess… CRONK: Do I march in parades and wave rainbow flags? TUCKER: Yeah, well…you know what I mean, not to be stereotypical… CRONK: No, I know exactly what you mean. That’s …I’m really not, actually… to be honest, I’m just not an activist in general with like, anything. For me, the way I…promote my rights and the way I try to like, bridge that gap of inequality is by doing stuff like this. I try to sit down with people and just say “Listen, this is who I am, I’m really not any different from you…” well compared to you guys I guess I am… [Laughter from Group] Ryan continues: “I’m not really any different from you…I like men, I go to school, you know, I work, you know…” stuff like that, it’s like, I’m a normal person, I just happen to be a male that likes men. That’s a very small piece of who I am, but people like look at that like “Oh my God, that’s your entire life.” No, it’s not. So, …that’s really where I would consider myself an activist for gay rights is I try to break the stereotypes on a one-on-one basis with people and like, just because I’m gay doesn’t mean I have a lisp, doesn’t mean that I, you know, that I dress like a girl or really stylish, it’s like, I shop at Meijer, you know, I shop at American Eagle if I can afford it…which I can’t, so it’s like, you know, I’m not top of the line, I don’t ever see myself being a Lady Gaga…whatever, so you know, I like her music but I really prefer country so it’s like, all the things that people say “Oh you’re gay so you like…” I’m like “No, sorry.” [Laughter from Group] Ryan continues: So yeah, it’s like…I’m not really an activist but I try to, I try to just be real with people and hope that that will have the same affect because I think that “kill them with Page 6 �kindness” is way better than shoving my views in someone else’s face and saying “now change”. TUCKER: So maybe on like, the smallest scale…like, more individual level? CRONK: Yeah, I’m the smallest scale activist you’ll ever see. But I think I am one of the most effective, I would hope because like, I mean, I’ve seen with a lot of my friends, like, they think they don’t like gay people and they meet one and they’re like “Oh, you’re a real person…ok, I like gay people now.”. It’s like “There you go, see? That’s all it took.” So instead of like, the big parades…I mean, that’s great, I’m not against it, but I don’t need that to be proud of who I am, you know, my orientation and what I’ve been through, …but I’m sure some people do and if that’s how they find it best to, you know, try to make a change in the world, I want them to go for it, but you won’t see me doing that. [Ryan laughs] NOWAK: Do you think that like, the parades are effective in getting the point out? That’s it’s not really a bad thing? To be gay? [Ryan hesitates] Ryan he: I almost want to say no, and hopefully anyone that hears or reads this will not take offensive to that, just because …just like with any parade, you go out to a parade because you already believe in it or you already support it. You don’t really go out to a parade to have your mind changed politically, socially, whatever. So, I mean, it’s great that they’re making an appearance and saying, “Listen, this issue is very real, you know, you can’t say they are no gay people in Michigan because we’re here and there’s no gay people in the U.S., no, we’re here and you know, we are a thriving community and we are a culture.” However, I think some people over do it and I think some people try to use those as a tool to like, put their views on other people and that’s kinda, shooting itself in the foot just because if you’re forcing someone to think a way, they’re going to resist it. I mean, I went through it where people were trying to force the heterosexual lifestyle on me and I was like “No.” I was resistant to it and I didn’t want that and , I think that stuff like, you know, the gay pride parades, even some of just making people, you know, look at certain posters every day, I mean, to me that can be overstepping a boundary and like, putting your views on someone else. Why would we want to do that when we’re trying to fight it ourselves? So, I mean, I know they have a place and they are good, but sometimes to me they can get over the top. Like, what people try to do with them and what people try to show with them. I don’t know; personal view. [Ryan laughs] Page 7 �TUCKER: Do you ever see like, a changing coming? Because you said there is bias like both ways, like the gay community kinda resents the straight community for like, resenting them and it just sounds like a vicious cycle. Do you ever see a change? [Ryan sighs and pauses] CRONK: I would hope that there will be someday where like, the middle is just met by everyone and like, one day both sides will just… [Ryan sighs again] CRONK: I hate to say it this way so just completely understand what I’m about to say. It’s like, I think if one side, like the more hetero side in general would kinda lower their guard and be like, less outspoken, then I think the LGBT community could meet them by lowering theirs and then, you know. BUT, that’s not to say that, it’s…the heterosexual community’s fault that we resent them, have something against them, you know, because it’s not. There’s just as many accepting hetero people that get discriminated against by the LGBT community I’m sure, as there is the other way around. Just because, I mean…people are going to believe what they want to and they’re going to think what they want to based off from how they were raised. So, I think that, if everything works out perfect, I think someday compromise will be reached where everyone is going to realize that it’s like, we’re all just trying to live a life that’s fulfilling, you know, and whatever that means, I mean if that means getting married, I think that someday, you should be able to get married no matter who you are. But I also think that, you know, if you don’t want to, because like, that’s where the thing that bugs me too is that, people automatically assume that every gay person wants to get married and that’s our top issue. It’s like, I personally do want to get married someday, but that’s not the top thing I think about when I wake up is, “Oh, I’m gonna try to get gay marriage, you know, to be accepted because I want to get married someday.” It’s like, well it would be really nice, but I could live without it. At least right now I think I could live without it, …but anyway. I mean, I think someday there will be a compromise, and I think people will just realize that we’re all the same and we just need to accept that from now on. So, and maybe, who knows, you know a lot of the studies that we talked about in Milt’s class actually show that our generation is way more accepting than our parents were and they were way more accepting than their parents were, so it’s like, as long as that trend continues, I think that we’re all going to be happy in the future someday. So, I mean there will always be that small pocket that don’t, and there’s always going to be that small pocket of people who don’t like those people for that reason, but in general I think, you know, it’s gonna go down more and more, I mean it has been for generations. So, I hope at least. [Ryan laughs] Page 8 �NOWAK: I feel like you just keep answering my questions. I make a question in my head and then you answer it. [Laughter from Group] TUCKER: I know, I was so gonna ask like, “Oh, do you think it’s like, decreasing by generation?” [Ryan jokes] CRONK: Yeah, I’ve done this a time or two. [More laughter from Group] CRONK: How about another question for myself? Okay! [Group laughs again] CRONK: Like, just kinda, what are my plans for the future? Like, right now its fine that I’m doing all of this stuff in college but where do I see this taking me? Or how do I feel like I’m going to react once I’m out in the real world? Alright, well! To answer that question… [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Ok. Alright well Here’s what I think is. Well I’m really not sure at least this semester I’m trying to make it through college and really the rest of my life will happen but so far I want to go into the peace corp. because in my life I feel like I’ve been given a lot just like you know I’ve gotten a lot of opportunity in my life and I want to go give back as much as possible and through the peace corps. I can do that. It’s been something I’ve aspired to do since I was in high school and after that I either want to stay in a foreign country like I’ve always, It’s always kind of been my plan to move out of the United States because of the policy that you know is I can’t get married unless I stay and live in Massachusetts and you know a couple of other states, but it’s like when I can only be legally married in four states or something like that it’s not the right county for me type thing. I eventually want to move and live in a foreigner nation full time, not sure which one yet just because I kind of want to see where life take me. You know how I like things, and I may go into the Peace Corps and find out the United States is awesome and that I just want to stay here forever and if I were to stay in the US I’d probably wind up on the East Coast just because I mean I’ve been to Washington D.C. before. It’s like I haven’t really visited the West Coast too much and I don’t know much about the West Coast, But I love the like history of the East Coast with all the colonial you know heritage it has. I’d probably wind up there because I know that I could be happy there and there is a lot of things there that I could enjoy so yeah. That and I don’t ever intend on one day being a huge activist. I don’t plan on someday growing up and leading one of the parades or anything, but I just hope someday to always be someone others can come to like to find out more like in a business someday Page 9 �whether I run a business because I’m kind of considering into looking into that still or whether I just work for a business I want to be involved somehow in like the HR side where I could be I don’t know one of the people in the office that is open to work issues related to the LGBT community because at least here in Michigan there is not many I think Grand Valley is one of the few actually public universities that embraces LGBT community in the way of that they have the equal partner rights or partner benefits or whatever. , but it seems like Grand Rapids actually do have city things on the book that make it so businesses don’t necessarily have to keep LGBT people but overall it’s not a reason that they would necessarily fire you I mean not every single one, but there are a good number of them so that’s encouraging. So anyway I would want to be someone in a business like that. That just can help relate between maybe people who don’t understand why this is a problem in the workplace to those who are like going through it and kind of facing that. So I don’t plan on making a career out of being gay, but hopefully I could use it to help my future career so. NOWAK: Do you think that like Grand Valley and like Grand Rapids in general like accepts like in the workplace a lot of that stuff? Are they getting better? CRONK: I say Grand Valley is definitely like I am completely on the Grand Valley bandwagon when it comes to like equal rights for people of all gender and ethnicities stuff like that. There amazing. Grand Rapids I haven’t had much experience like I lived in the bubble of Coopersville so and then I’ve kind of lived in the bubble of Grand Valley, but when I lived in Grand Rapids this ser I did apply for jobs and I didn’t hide the fact that I was gay and I ended up not getting hired at them. So I mean, not to say the oh I applied for this job and I didn’t get it because I was gay but it’s like “Oh maybe that’s just you know not as good that I was willing to say that you know to them,” but if I don’t get a job because I am gay I am completely ok with that. I mean that’s not something that should determine like with fuel me being gay doesn’t affect how the sandwiches I make turn out. I mean it means nothing like maybe if I was working in, I don’t even know what that would affect. I can’t even think of a job that that would influence my performance. So anyway, so but I mean with the night life I mean with the couple of gay clubs in Grand Rapids and just the fact there aren’t a lot of bias incidents that I’ve heard that have happened in the Grand Rapids area where a homosexual person being beaten in the street or something like that. I mean, it makes me really comfortable with being gay you know even in the Grand Rapids area and with such the Hipster you know trend that’s coming out in Grand Rapids I means there’s more people that are not caring on a like community basis so I mean coffee shops, it doesn’t matter who goes to it, you’re going to have a good time. (Whispering) NOWAK: going back to like you wanting to go to the Peace Corps do you worry a lot about your mom like leaving or do you just feel like you just need to progress? Page 10 �CRONK: I do, this is actually the first year I have lived outside the home with from the family, I actually live in a house here in Allendale now, and it’s like yeah I worry she’s still- has medical problems that I found out like yesterday she had three seizures in one day and that was like 3 or 4 weeks ago and I am just finding out about it. So it’s like stuff like that worries me and I do spend time like thinking about whether I made the right decision leaving, but I completely believe in my independence because I want to take care of her but at the same time I have obligations to myself that I have to kind of fulfill. Because like living at home I would go to class and then I would go home, and then I might do a few of my fraternity activities, but that was mainly it, I wasn’t able to like spend, I wouldn’t be able to go out all weekend and stay with friends. It would be I’d have to come home because mommy and daddy are still you know checking on you and stuff like that wondering where you are. I didn’t have a car, so I would borrow my moms, so there was that and so kind of like yeah I believe that I know I have a lot of things that like between what- where I am now and where I want to go as a person, moving out was a major step but yeah I still have that worry what happens I’m not there and what should I be doing as a good son to like take care of that. Because I still believe in the old fashioned idea of like the children should take care of their parents. Just like in general like I don’t like the idea of retirement homes, like I wish that my family had been able to have like my grandma move in with us and like stay with us because she could have taken care of us while my parents were at work and stuff like that, but our society doesn’t necessarily believe that anymore so I’m kind of stuck in the old fashion idea of it, but so but I see that eventually I do want my mom to move in with me like when I’m older you know once a have an established job. I’ll probably be forty or something before any of that can happen, but I do eventually intend on like at least my mom moving back in with me when she gets older. It’s nice because I can go out and party and not worry about it anymore. I finally enjoyed spending time with friends all weekend and not worrying who I’m going home to at night because my roommates and all that are doing just as much like they’re gone just as much as I am… CRONK: Crazy roommates. [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Rachael, how has your stuff with relationships been working out? Rachel: My what, oh, what? CRONK: Dating. Rachel: Yeah, How has relationships been working out for you? CRONK: Well actually I have never had a gay relationship, and I’ve been out since junior year of high school and it’s my junior year of college. Yeah anyway, that’s another thing that when it comes to stereotypes is that “Oh, we’re whores” more or less like that’s one that I’ve heard Page 11 �from my family there like “Oh, are you just going to sleep around?” Now I’m like “No, I still have values.” , so yeah it’s like one of those stereotypes is that the LGBT community is just full of whores and you know we don’t really care about having long term relationships we just kind of want to have fun “Hit it and quit it” you know whole thing. That is not what I believe at all, and I always like- it kind of sickens me the idea of “hit it and quit it” it’s like sorry no that’s not what I want for myself and that’s not what we want in general. , I do want to be in a relationship like especially in college and that’s one of the things that has been challenging is even though I have taken this whole process of coming out and like being comfortable with myself and I still haven’t found that someone, and like everyone says “Oh yeah, first of all with high school is where you know can learn about dating for the real world.” Well then when I came to college everyone’s like “oh yeah, this is where you should be able to just you know date whatever and if you break up with someone well it really won’t matter that much because there’s plenty of other options.” And I’m like “Thanks. I love hearing that” because I haven’t dated anyone even though I’m willing to it’s not like I’m sitting there reading a book saying all the time “oh no I just don’t want to be in a relationship.” Like if I could get into a relationship right now I would. Unfortunately it’s one of the struggles I face even here at Grand Valley is just the idea of there’s still not a lot of opportunity. Like I came from a place where there was no opportunity for dating and no there’s opportunity I just don’t get that opportunity to. So , and that has played a big part in some of the struggles I’ve had a Grand Valley just because it kind of wears you down at least for me because I am very social. I’m very much very much like- I’m vested in other people and I just wish I had that one special person that was just kind of a relationship for me where all the relationships I have right now are like friends, business or my business fraternity like brothers, my social fraternity brothers, all that. It’s all things where I give 100% and I might get something back. And I just want that feeling of always getting you know always getting something back from someone else and not really having to try. So it’s like, that’s one of the struggles that I would say I still face is just that feeling of I still feel like it kind of like it wasn’t worth it coming out and all this because yeah I have good self-esteem now but I haven’t really gotten everything I want out of it, and even though to me it feels like it should be a really small thing to get back, it’s been a really big problem so I mean just that. I found here at Grand Valley this is personal experience I sure if you talk to a million- you know or if you talk to every gay person on campus it would be a different story, but for me it’s been because I didn’t date in high school like men at least that people- other gay men here on the campus aren’t really open to dating me just because I don’t have the experience or there’s the other half that because I’m not a whore they don’t want to date me because they want whores to date more or less. So it’s like it’s a really bad reflection on us because it’s like the people that do just sleep around perpetuate the stereotype that all we do is just sleep around but unfortunately I’ve found here you know that I fall in a really weird middle of, I haven’t really dated and slept around and because I haven’t dated and slept around that people just don’t want to date me, and I’m like Page 12 �“How does that work?” Like you would think somewhere there would be you know people that would say “Wow, that’s really great I’m really happy about that,” but so far I haven’t found any. TUCKER: So it’s not a matter of like meeting people like meeting other guys it’s just like more of like your morals don’t match sometimes? CRONK: Kind of. I guess I don’t know. I know a very small group of the gay community here at Grand Valley just because the ones I met through the center and those were pretty much all of those were the ones that were like angry more or less about what they’ve been through, and I was like “Ok, so that kind of disqualifies all those people right there.” And then the Greek men that I’ve met that are gay and yeah, there kind of the ones that are the whole they enjoy their freedom, let’s just put it that way, more than so it’s not like I’ve met every gay person here on campus, but the one’s I have, yeah, things just haven’t worked out. So , but with- I work technically five jobs and all that so it’s like I don’t really have time to go out and meet everybody, and the few sources I have found that kind of get my name out there are not exactly the most respectable ones. So , I wish I could just meet people that are more like myself in the way ones like you would never suspect are gay until you find out “Oh, they’re gay” type thing, and I don’t get to meet a lot of people like that. NOWAK: Do you think they are a lot of people who like struggle with that? Like just not like obviously there’s not that many at Grand Valley because you haven’t found… CRONK: Yeah, I would think there are. I mean I would to think there’s a lot of people kind of just like me except they’re not as vocal about you know about who they are. , where yeah, I mean they probably came from the same type of background, raised here whether in Michigan or another form of the Bible Belt where it’s like they never got to experience that before and even though they have the opportunity here I’m sure they have friends who are really supportive of them, but just in general they still kind of keep to the idea that it’s not accepted because everywhere but Grand Valley like Grand Valley is kind of a little dot in the middle of a lot of hate, a lot of backwards policies. , so anyway, I’m sure they are thinking long term like kept that to themselves, like self-preservation I would say, and that kind of makes me sad because I know some- I know one person in particular where they’re kind of in the denial phase that they’re still straight. Anyway, so high school, but. [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Sorry, but anyway. They , it’s like that person in particular I wish they would realize how ok it is to go through that process now because once they get out of here it’s going to be twenty times harder. Like if it’s challenging now, it’s going to be even harder once you get out there and you know you don’t have that small island that we have here of acceptance and freedom to try- like because you know even that group out and about, I mean I Page 13 �didn’t like it but I at least had the opportunity to try to be around like minded people, and you know so, , I’ll be really sad if people don’t get to take advantage of that before they leave here, and I mean I think it would be really hard to try to after seeing that even if they weren’t a part of it to try to go through the process in a group of- area that is not accepting you know like it is here. NOWAK: Do you think that it could be also that there are just like people who are like on the fence kind of who don’t really want to come out and are just kind of timid about it? Like CRONK: I’m sure there is a large population of that too. , I mean it’s a choice. For me it was a choice that was a no brainer to make, but I am sure it was- there is a struggle for a lot of people that, I mean you’re literally changing your life even though you’re not really changing anything about yourself, you’re changing how other people are going to see you. , and it’s something that I wish more people could relate to just the idea of, to a certain extent you have to give up everything you know, everything you’re comfortable with. , because you really do have to redefine everything you know when it comes to like, like how you act towards other people may completely change, like how you’re willing to act towards other people. , so I definitely remember and understand what it’s like to be one of those that- it’s just a struggle to say “is it worth it? Should I?” because there is so much good that could come from it, but there’s a lot of bad you have to acknowledge when making you know that choice of- because when I say choice I don’t think being gay is a choice it’s acknowledging on a like external basis that you’re gay is where the choice comes in. So, I was born gay or I was you know whatever. On a fundamental human level I was always gay, and the reason I chose to be gay was because I chose to let other people know. I didn’t choose to you know perpetuate the façade that I was straight, and like I think a lot of people haven’t got to that point yet. You know, they’re not comfortable enough; they don’t have enough incentive yet. I mean I know people who were raise in an area that was actually accepting of gays, some of them still haven’t come out. They have come out to a couple people, but they still haven’t come out in general. Just because there is no incentive, people already accept who they are, gay or not. So they’re like “Why should I come out when I’m not?” Where I felt like people weren’t accepting me for who I truly was so for me the incentive was to come out and say “Well listen, you can take me or leave me for who I actually am not who I’m pretending to be.” So I mean maybe some people just need more incentive and maybe that’s- someday they’ll want a relationship and it’s like well now I need to say you know “Oh, I’m gay. I’m going to date people now.” And when I say gay I kind of incorporate LGBT with that. I’m sorry I’ve been using that over and over, but that’s the one I relate to most, because I am. So, like yeah I’m kind of using gay as a blanket term for homosexual. So anyway, sorry. Page 14 �TUCKER: You kind of touched on this, but like let’s say a student twenty years from now. Is your biggest advice to get active and like not deny yourself like to get involved in groups so you can be a part of it? Or what would you say? I know it’s a big question. CRONK: No I, yeah that’s great. I mean, if someone is listening to this twenty years from now and having to decide whether to make that choice or not I would hope they’d just decide to do what’s best for them because that’s you know I that’s really vague and it’s like but it’s that’s the only way that we can do this. I’ve heard stories of people being forced to come out. Like they’ve confided in someone and then that person spread it to like their entire high school and so the person was forced, and that’s a horrible experience. I mean they were completely crushed. They had to go to counseling for stuff like that. So I would never want to be that way, but and I know some people wouldn’t be comfortable like me where it’s just like “Oh, if you ask me I’m going to tell you the truth.” So, I mean just do what’s right for you. I know at the beginning of my process I printed out pictures of men I found attractive and my way of getting it back is I had a folder of these pictures underneath my bed, and that was enough for a while for me because then I felt like “Oh, you know I can look at attractive men without being weird,” you know like people seeing or whatever. , and if that’s enough for people start with that, you know , start reading you know stories by gay authors with gay characters. Watch Modern Family you know that has a gay couple and the daughter Willy. I mean you know whatever, just small steps like that can make you feel better about yourself and help you decide you know if you’re like ready. If you’re you know, if this is how you want to go. Because I mean the gay lifestyle, I consider it- there to be a gay lifestyle. I know there’s controversy that saying “You know, no there’s a human lifestyle, part of it just happens to be gay.” To me there is a gay lifestyle; I mean we are our own culture. And I mean some people may find it’s just not for them, I mean there are things that I know I don’t agree with you know when it comes to like the practices of LGBT people and stuff like that. So it’s like maybe they’ll just find out in general that they don’t want to be associated with that at all. You know if that’s where their feelings are they may just find it’s easier and better for them like especially if they are really religious and their religion really doesn’t support it. You know, I just hope they would do what they feel is best because at the end of the day you have to make yourself happy. and this is one of those things that you definitely have to be comfortable with yourself in order to embrace it like in order to go through it because there is a lot of challenge that you have to get over ii and sometimes like I would lay in bed at night and the only thing that like made it all worth it was the thought that’s I’m finally doing what’s best for me, not for what’s necessarily better for everyone else. So , Hopefully that answered it. TUCKER: Yeah CRONK: I’m Sorry. Page 15 �TUCKER: No, it’s ok. CRONK: mind. Sometimes I feel like I talk in circles, but I swear it’s all irrelevant in my [Laughter from Group] TUCKER: Is there anything we haven’t talked about yet that you want us to know, want everyone to know I guess? CRONK: Not really, I mean I don’t know. It’s not like even though I’m gay and like obviously I have the normal human desires. I want to date someone and stuff like that. It’s not really something I think about on a daily basis anymore like when I was coming out it was. It used to be a really big point in my life, but I mean since I’ve gone through the process and since I consider myself growing up I mean I would hope I am always becoming more mature like every day. , it’s just another piece of who I am. It’s not the whole puzzle. So , I just hope that people get to see that. I hope more people get to understand that you know being gay is not a bad thing. I mean, it has depending on your religion, depending on your raising it may not be the best thing, but I don’t think I’m going to hell. You know, I think and if I am going to go to hell it’s because I have done a lot of other things that are going to put me there. This isn’t one of those things. , and hell, man if I go to hell for that I hope I get to date there I mean I won’t have a problem meeting people. So, got to look for the silver lining in it. So I mean, you know whatever , and I think I do enough good things on this earth, you know, to the god I know and the god I believe in see’s that and you know puts it on a scale you know. So , I can’t think of anything else. NOWAK: a half. I don’t know if we have anything else to add. We’ve got like a house and TUCKER: Do you feel good about it? CRONK: I love it. I am glad you guys are doing this. I’m glad your teacher is getting you guys involved because I mean I can’t speak from the heterosexual side, but I mean hopefully you guys are at least learning something, getting a new prospective. NOWAK: Yeah. TUCKER: Yeah, definitely. [Group discusses project technicalities] Page 16 �CRONK: Ok, cool. [Ryan laughs]. So no, I’m glad you guys are doing this it really makes me feel good to like see that maybe so- and I like the idea that maybe I’m making a difference for somebody someday somewhere, so. I like it, good ego boost for the day. [Laughter from Group] NOWAK: Well thanks for sharing everything. TUCKER: Yeah, thank you. CRONK: Absolutely, thank you guys for having me. END OF INTERVIEW Page 17 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9287ae8463ff36b9929ea3d942fd506e.mp3 f1d07e747adb87cca5749ae00abdd331 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Cronk_Ryan Title A name given to the resource Ryan Cronk audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cronk, Ryan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tucker, Kalle Berkenpas, Rachael Nowak, Tyler Description An account of the resource Ryan Cronk is a student at Grand Valley State University, double majoring in Accounting and Economics. Ryan is an active member of the LGBT community as well as the Delta Upsilon fraternity. Ryan passionately works to educate others on LGBT issues within the Grand Valley community. He discusses religion and what it is like to be a gay male at Grand Valley State University. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8bcddbc48ba0b9a88ed0ab81905850ca.pdf eb09fe4d2359e5506753cc80f15264d3 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Donald Cullen Interviewers: Ian Baert and Heather Taylor Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/26/2012 Biography and Description Donald Cullen grew up near Royal Oak, Michigan. After being in the 4th Marine division on Iwo Jima, he was stationed in Hawaii before returning to Michigan. Donald now lives in Whitehall, Michigan, near his daughters. His love for the game of golf is as great now as it was back in high school. He discusses war. Transcript CULLEN: Well compared to the, the P-8 that’s a big ship you know. BAERT: Um hm CULLEN: It’ll hold a couple thousand men. Well, you know you’re bobbin up and down like this, you know that it’s stationary, and (pauses) a guy gets crushed in there. BAERT: Oh Really BENEDICT: (Interrupts) after he comes… CULLEN: Next that sticks in my mind more than anything… (Daughter Interrupts again) BENEDICT: After he comes, after he comes home BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: Uh, makes it through everything over there, and then that’s what happened to him CULLEN: And then when we get aboard the P-8, and the guy says, “What do you, (stutters), what do you want to eat? Swiss steak or something else you know? (Daughter and narrator laugh). After eatin’ rations for a month (everyone laughs more), you know? He says, “I don’t care.” They even had ice cream with that meal, uh so, it was uh… (Interrupted) BENEDICT: Didn’t you want spam Dad? (Everyone laughs) CULLEN: You know I’ll tell you one thing, I never, (stutters), I never minded spam. BENEDICT: Uh hm CULLEN: I didn’t always, (stutter), I mean compare to some of the other things we had I think. But it was, I was in an outfit that has a lot of guys from Detroit. That’s where I was from, Detroit, and it was, I don’t Page 1 �know, about 50% guys from right, (stutters), right around the Detroit area. I went to one, (paused) reunion they had, like you know just the guys in our outfit that was from around Detroit there. BAERT: Um hm CULLEN: And I never went to anymore that was it. (Chuckles) BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Tell Ian when you went down to sign up dad. This is a good story. When you went down to sign up. CULLEN: I (stutters) I don’t know what you’re talking about. BENEDICT: Well, well… CULLEN: I know when I went down there BENEDICT: Yea, and you told me that you were gonna sign up for the army CULLEN: Oh, oh yea I wanted to go in the airborne, hmm, cause I had a, my brother was in the airborne, And, the guy says, “No.” he says, “We got our quota, we take the first 500 men.” that day for the army, and so he says, “We got Navy, Coast Guard, or Marine Core.” And I said, “Oh, I’ll take the Marine Core.” (Chuckles) And that was uh, (paused), the guys never thought nothing of it, it was, but uh I didn’t want that Navy, they was, (daughter chuckling in the background), I was reading about it in the paper all the time. Those ships were getting sunk right out of New York Harbor. I says, “I want, I want dry land.” (Everyone laughs). BENEDICT: And Charley. Bill’s dad, he went down and he wanted to be in the Navy, cause he loved that water. Oh no, no, he couldn’t, they put him in the infancy 2:35 – 2:40 BAERT: Oh, I never knew… (Interrupted) CULLEN: (interrupts) Well uh…… BENEDICT: They do? BAERT: So you grew up around Detroit CULLEN: Yep I was uh, in uh, I was uh drafted. BAERT: Uh hm CULLEN: and uh, I was a draft warden for 62 out of Plymouth, MI. That was just, not too far from here. (Waiter comes takes drink orders, etc.) BAERT: That’s where all of my roommates are at, right around from Detroit, like uh. CULLEN: You, (stutters), you are? BAERT: My roommates are right around from Detroit. Livonia… Page 2 �CULLEN: Yep, that’s where I was BAERT: Yep, and… CULLEN: Livonia BAERT: uh Royal Oak, they have that big theater there. CULLEN: That’s where I was born, Royal Oak BAERT: Oh really? Yep, that’s where one of my roommates is from and he lives two blocks from the theater down there, so its uh, that’s why I was just curious though. CULLEN: Royal Oak Township. BAERT: Yep, it’s uh, it’s a nice area. CULLEN: I, I don’t even know what it’s like. BAERT: Oh Really? CULLEN: I was move away from there when I was just a little 3:36 – 3:42???? BAERT: Um, so you were, so you were drafted, uh we were talking about um, your childhood, um like, did you have any, like dreams jobs when you were younger? CULLEN: No BAERT: No CULLEN: Uh I, I think uh why I went in uh engineer outfit is uh I’d worked as a carpenter’s helper, you know, roofing houses, and I think that’s why they, why I went in a engineers. BAERT: Uh hm But I never had no, I wasn’t a carpenter I was just a, haul the lumber and nail em’. BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Well wouldn’t you say caddying was a dream job for yea? CULLEN: (laughing) Oh, I, I caddied for a long time. BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: (laughing) Oh Yea BAERT: I was going to do that for a ser too. I (stuttered) looked into that, that would have been a fun job. I love golf so, that would have been nice, but… CULLEN: Wouldn’t it? I think uh, well the, the guys around, I ….4:38 – 4:40 With a fella, well we was in school all the time, and uh, boy we played every golf course around this time of the year. You know, when they was closed up, and we knew they would be open (laughing) BAERT: Yea (laughing) Page 3 �CULLEN: We’d go out to Birmingham, or Oakland Hills, (laughing) drive right up the club, There was no other cars around BENEDICT: Just like they were members (laughing) CULLEN: Yea with an old 36’ Ford (laughing) BAERT: Yea (laughing) CULLEN: Henry, this guy that hung around us all the time. He had uh, he worked at Cadillac’s BAERT: Yea? CULLEN: And he drove the cars off the assembly line out into the parking lot there, you know, wherever they need them. (Laughing) And there he had to get into that old 36’ Ford, he had to drive it (5:17 - 5:23) and they don’t have no brakes you know them old 36’ Fords, mechanical brakes, and they never worked (everyone laughs). It was (paused) Henry he went into uh, he went into the Army after the war, and maybe he was little younger than me, I don’t know, and he went over in Korea. He was playing polo all the time, riding horses. I guess he had a good time doing that (laughing). BAERT: Yea definitely CULLEN: He was uh, we caddied together and played golf together all the time. He was a nice buddy. I watched hockey, not watched it, I mean I listened to it. We’d play table tennis, you know, in a garage with a (laughing) a little (6:26-6:30) we was always bumping our head on that thing. Anyway, that’s when Detroit won the first 3 games against Toronto. What was it 1942? (Laughing) Well I thought maybe you knew the hockey… BENEDICT: Dad, I was still a star in heaven (laughing) CULLEN: Detroit wins the first 3 games just blowing Toronto out. They lose the next four. BAERT: Oh, wow CULLEN: I think 1942 BENEDICT: So we come to be Red Wing’s Fans from way back. BAERT: Do you have any Siblings? Did you have any brothers or sisters? CULLEN: Yea there was five of us, and my oldest sister, she’s gone, and so is my older brother. And my younger sister, she uh not doing good, her minds going, like mine is too. Donna told me to, 7:27 – 7:35 I, I drive over here I thought she told me to meet her over here. BENEDICT: I said, I see him at the casway and I said to Bill, well there goes dad, (laughter). Good thing it’s a small town. We can track him down (laughs). CULLEN: I pulled in over here this morning I thought it was at 9:00. Page 4 �BAERT: Ah CULLEN: The cop was across the street waiting, boy I had to be careful I didn’t do anything wrong. He was just waiting for someone to pull a boner, and he was going to nail them. I don’t mind the police being on alert like that cause I, I usually drive I think slow enough. I don’t, I don’t speed too much. But uh, you know most the time when I’m driving, every once in a while I’ll look and if I see a speed limit sign, I’ll look at the speedometer, you know the speedometer, I’m going exactly what that reads up there. Now is that just, I don’t BENEDICT: That’s talent, that’s skill (laughter) CULLEN: But honestly I’ll, if it says 25 I’ll be maybe doing 26 or 27, but right in there BAERT: Yea, that’s what I usually do too, so. BENEDICT: Dad has also a younger brother. BAERT: Oh ok CULLEN: Yep, Jack he’s a. Does he? Jack was a brickplayer. That longed for me to… BENEDICT: (interrupts) 8:59 CULLEN: He uh, we worked together for a while trimming trees for the city of Detroit, well that was, we enjoyed that I think both of us. We had nice foreman. I think having a good ser means a lot to a job. It makes the day go by so much faster. I gotta tell you this story with this foreman we had. He’s great big guy. Big teeth, just a big smile on his face all of the time. We’re trimming on this street you know, I knock down a branch or maybe about this big, and (estimates size) just about covered all the way across the road. And there’s, oh about this much snow I’d say (estimates again), fresh snow. This UPS guy he’s coming along, and he’s got a delivery, he’s pushing this branch along. This big ol’ foreman we got he said, “Can’t you read that sign, it says do not enter.” “Road closed.” And he’s getting pushed backwards and he’s got feet about like that (laughs). He’s a great big guy. He loses his temper, the first time I ever seen him lose his temper. He says. “Goddamn you!” He says, “Stop it!” (Laughs)I never seen Harvey, Harvey Brinks was a 10:27, never seen him get like that, but there he, he got pushed off edge by 15, 20 feet backwards. The guy couldn’t get across that, Harvey’s feet was there. He couldn’t get away. It ticked me, you know, I was, having a bird’s eye view I was up the tree watching it. Oh, that Harvey was a… Then we, we went over on another Street, Boston Blvd, maybe you know that. Well, that was the wealthiest street in Detroit, you know way back. Henry Ford lived there, and the whole haul of General Motor people. Everybody that had money lived on Boston Street. The trees hadn’t been trimmed in about 20 years, since the WPA had been there. They were way up there; they had trees up there about 80 feet somewhere, Elm trees, big ones. We’d be up there climbing around. Harvey was up and say, “Coffee!” (Laugh) He’d just like to see us come sailing down out of some trees. It was his way of having a good day. He was uh, really uh, good foreman. I liked him a lot. He had a, had a brother that was into racing. (Stammers a little) Page 5 �His brother in law bought this Lincoln, or (paused), I think it was Lincoln. And that was the fastest thing, you know for the track, riding on the track PAULINE: Oh ok CULLEN: Like what they’re doing today. I, I see that on television every once in a while. They had a big crack up yesterday. Did you happen to see that or anything? BAERT: I saw it on ESPN, yea CULLEN: I was watching that… BENEDICT: Oh is that a NASCAR or? CULLEN: Yea about 3 or 4 of them right together coming into, they only had about a half a, not even half a lap to go. BAERT: Yea the quarter turn, cause uh, the 11th place guy at, right before the crash ended up winning the race. CULLEN: (laughing) Yep! BAERT: Which is weird so (laughing) CULLEN: you know there was a car there I was watching, he was, I think he had the most speed. But boy they kept him pinned in back there. BENEDICT: Well I think they use that as a strategy don’t they? To kind of widdle people out. BAERT: What did your parents do? CULLEN: What? BAERT: What did you parents do for work? CULLEN: Oh I don’t know (laughter). My mother she was a worker, my dad was an outman. Then he had a pool hall over in Highland Park. I, I never, I think I, I didn’t spend I don’t think 3 hours in that pool hall. I, I never, I rather play table tennis more than pool. BAERT: Yea CULLEN: Look it there’s the dog tag I got. BENEDICT: Yea this is um, Dad’s dog tag. BAERT: Oh this is awesome! BENEDICT: Yep, isn’t that great that we found, we were, um looking for, uh the toy box um grandma, she had a toy box for all of us grandchildren you know, and um Jenna now that she has a child. She said, “Oh can you find grandma’s toy box?” So dad and I were down in the basement looking around. We found his (sea bag 14:02 – 14:05). BAERT: Oh Really? Wow. Page 6 �BENEDICT: And I said, “Look it dad.” And it was his I.D. and, um his dog tag was in it, and we had cleaned out a couple other boxes and I said, “And what’s this?” and I pulled this great big piece of metal out of his (sea bag) about this long (gestures), all the cleaning and looking was over when I found that, that uh gun barrel. (Laughing) CULLEN: Oh (laughing). My brother Jack had sent into the army, and he got an old rifle and uh then he bought an extra gun barrel, because they didn’t recommend that gun barrel that was on there. That it may not be useful, so then Jack bought an extra barrel, and he gave it to me. Well, it’s a, I don’t know if you know rifles or not, but there are some that have 3 grooves and some of them got 4. Well the 4 groove it shoots a little straighter, it puts a little more spin on it. BENEDICT: So he has me looking, and I’m not (stutters), I don’t know what I’m looking for. He says, “Hold it up to the light hunny. I can’t see it real good. Is that a 3 groove or a 4 groove?” Well what on Earth am I looking for? (Daughter laughs) So I have this barrel… (Interrupted) CULLEN: Riflemen’s the only ones that have any, uh knowledge of that. You know most people pick up a rifle and they don’t know… (Background noise, multiple people talking) BENEDICT: Dad knew he had it but didn’t know where it was, well they it laid at the bottom of the, of a (sea bag). CULLEN: Did you look at that close Donna? BENEDICT: Yea I looked at it close. CULLEN: No but there’s something on there I bet you didn’t notice. See that little “C” over there? BENEDICT: Uh hm CULLEN: That’s what denomination we are. See I was baptized Catholic BENEDICT: Oh, ok MR BENEDICT: Show Ian CULLEN: And type “O” blood. That’s when I went in 1943. PAULINE: That’s pretty nice. BENEDICT: Isn’t that something to put that on there? BAERT: It is. BENEDICT: Yea DAVE: See that was, when I went in, in the 80’s that was uh, you’re religion was a big (16:02 – 16:06 BENEDICT: Oh yes GUY 1: I bet you it isn’t anymore. PAULINE: It might be. Page 7 �BENEDICT: But you, but you look at, um the cemetery, um you know Arlington National they all have record if you are Christian, or whether you are Jewish or… CULLEN: What other questions you got? BAERT: Well I was just looking at, uh like, well we already talked about like, if you had any like, where you saw yourself in 10 years and stuff like that. Did you play any sports when you were younger, when you were a kid? You remember playing sports with your friends or anything like that? CULLEN: Well we played sports, uh all, like um when I got out of the service we went my brother; my brother took over my grandmother’s house right down pretty close to the ball park. BAERT: Oh ok CULLEN: On Balt and Temple. It was right on ….street 17:11. There was my older brother Gordon, and Jack and I and then there was Cullen family across the road (laughing). BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: No relation CULLEN: (Laughing) Yea no relation, two boys, and then Henry and Mrs. Lawrence would come over. That’s it. But uh I always ched around with Henry. He had blond hair and his brother had black hair, Chet. Anyways, we had almost a softball team right there, the three of us with two across the road, and Henry and Lawrence, they’d come. We’d play softball almost every night. BAERT: Oh right? CULLEN: At Naple Field, and we had a short right field fence and, well the street run there, the way the ball diamond was outlaid. I played short right field there. We was playing black guys. You know they, they loved to play ball. Anyways, there was one hit out there to me and I caught it, and I threw it into, Lawrence was catching. He tagged a guy out. The guy couldn’t make it from third base (laughter). Well it was a short right field wall and all; you know it never went out very far. You only got a single if you hit it over the fence; you know at a certain so many posts down. Then it was a double and then there was an entrance way down there and I think if you had it past that it was a homer. BAERT: Oh yea? (Laughs) CULLEN: Isn’t that something? BAERT: Yea CULLEN: The way we had it figured single, double, and then a homer (laughs). But uh, it was the bat boy for the tigers, well Lawrence our catcher he uh went with his sister who was Lawrence’s girlfriend, isn’t that something? (Laughs) BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Did it get you into the games? Page 8 �CULLEN: uh they never got me into the games. Lawrence’s did, but I mean they called him Tarzan, all the girls were on there, cause he had long black hair. The only one, you know, that had long hair. I don’t think I’ve ever had long hair in my lifetime except when I was a real little guy BENEDICT: How’d you like Stevie’s hair yesterday? Did that remind you of Christopher or what? (Laughs) CULLEN: I use to cut the boys hair but, then they got so big and they wanted long hair, so I hung up the clippers. BENEDICT: And my mom, Christopher had beautiful curly hair and he didn’t want to have his hair cut you know, and mom didn’t want him to get his hair cut. Here’s dad clipping the other boy’s hair and poor Christopher, you know he would run and hide (laughs). Well now he has a son and Stevie showed up, and it was the spitting image. I couldn’t believe it, it was my baby brother right there his child with long hair, and he’s a hockey player. I said… (Waitress comes and clears table) I said I didn’t know if I should call him Justin Bieber or not. He had the bangs all over. (laughs) but tell, yea, tell him, I want you to tell Ian the story about, um when you guys were cadian and the cadies could play on Mondays. CULLEN: Monday mornings. Henry 20:46 and I, we’d be the first ones out there. We’d play 18 holes before there’d be, uh footprints of anybody else on the course. BAERT: Wow CULLEN: We’d play 18 holes and there wouldn’t be no other caddies out there yet. Now, that’s going around a pretty good time. BENEDICT: What was the name of the course, um Forest… CULLEN: Forest Lake BENEDICT: Forest Lake, and um a friend of mine, son, was getting married and they would come down there. And so they were going to hold the reception at Forest Lake Country Club. So I said to dad, “Do you know where Forest Lake Country Club is?” I got to tell you a story about Forest Lake, but anyhow. Really, it’s very ritzy place now, but what did you say that the course was um private then went public? CULLEN: Yep, during the wartime cause people didn’t have gas to travel very far. Everybody had a ticket right on your windshield. You know, when you went into the gas station. You had service men in there, they’d come out. Well you had to show your card, and then they’d punch it too so you couldn’t get more gas then what you were allowed. You were only allowed so much gas a week. I don’t think this country really realized how much the United States dedicated to that war. I mean everybody it wasn’t just… BAERT: That’s what we were talking about the difference between, um like, a limited war and like a full war went. That entire economy, everything was dedicated to the war effort compared to like now where it’s hardly ever, hardly at all. Was there anything else besides gasoline that everyone struggled at, that was rationalized? 22:47-22:49 CULLEN: Oh I, I think, uh meat too, I think you had to have, uh food stamps. It was I think everything, but everybody was into it. I mean I don’t care, the whole family everybody would do certain things. Page 9 �BENEDICT: Uh hm, or gave up certain things, yep. CULLEN: My sister Joel, that’s, uh older then I am, she was, she worked in the factory. She worked on the B29’s and I didn’t even know they were making the B29’s. Isn’t that something? Marge she worked in the factory too. That was my oldest sister. She was 9 years older than I was. MR. BENEDICT: So did you get drafted Don? CULLEN: Yes MR. BENEDICT: where’d you go to base? CULLEN: San Diego MR. BENEDICT: Oh yea, Camp Pendleton? CULLEN: What? MR. BENEDICT: Camp Pendleton? CULLEN: No San Diego Base. MR. BENEDICT: Oh really? CULLEN: And then you, up north a ways was Camp Pendleton. I was at the rifle range, uh I think I was there for a week, or two week, I forget now. But uh, you had to go through the rifle range and that was, you know, when you were in boot camp. But that San Diego boot camp, that (24:19 – 24:22) I bet you is a mile. I never seen such a thing and the navy was down at the end of it. The Navy uh, I think they had a boot camp down there at the end of that; but sometimes well I don’t know how many platoons they had but… (Waitress comes to table gain bringing something) I don’t know how many platoons they had… MR. BENEDICT: You want to eat yet? CULLEN: What? MR. BENEDICT: Are you ready to eat? CULLEN: Well uh I was going to eat with Sherrill afterwards, but I don’t, I don’t turn away food very well. (Laughter) I don’t, I don’t eat a lot but whatever I take and put on my plate I eat. BENEDICT: Now how much did you weight when you entered the core? CULLEN: you’re asking questions I don’t know. BENEDICT: How much do you weigh now? CULLEN: well I’m losing weight now, but I was 157 pound for 30, 40 years. I didn’t have to get on the scale to know how much I weighed, I weighed the same. (Background noise, joking around, and laughter) Page 10 �[After returning from the buffet area] CULLEN: Are you familiar with Muskegon? PAULINE: A little, I have been here years ago. I haven’t been around here in a long time CULLEN: What do they call it? The steak and agger. PAULINE: Oh? CULLEN: We went there at 9 o’clock in the morning and honestly it’s all, I don’t know how much bigger it is than this here place, maybe two or three times bigger. Almost all the seats were taken. BAERT: Oh really? Wow. CULLEN: At 9 o’clock in the morning. For breakfast. PAULINE: It must be a good place then. CULLEN: Oh, you know what? I said Bill, I think, I said, in fact I must be a big man, big eater because everybody, everybody, honestly the biggest servings you have ever seen. Really I have never seen anything like that! [Chuckles from group in the background] CULLEN: but uh, I talked with a fella that he wants to know about when I caddied. He is with Michigan, what is it? I don’t know what Bobby is with. What is the topper? What does he have to do with? The Michigan golf association or something? BENEDICT: GAM? Golf? Yeah the golf association of Michigan CULLEN: He was down there at the steak and agger. BENEDICT: When? CULLEN: Yesterday Morning. But he left at 9 o’clock. We just missed him. BENEDICT: And he’s been um he’s been battling severe cancer. He has been at the U of M. CULLEN: he is getting where he can drive a car. But he called me up every once in a while [in laughter]. One time I told him lets go over and play Lincoln fields. He says where’s that Don? I say it’s like in golf cars. He said it reminds me of the fields around our house growing up as a young kid. I says it got the nickname Lincoln fields. Oh he laughed! He has never got over that. BENEDICT: And his other friend didn’t particularly care for that. CULLEN: oh no. the guy we played golf with all the time Ken, he didn’t think that was funny at all. [Laughter from others]. Bill: One time I asked him how his golf game was, and he said a lot better than his dad’s game was! Page 11 �BAERT: you said you used to play softball with African-Americans in the area? And stuff like that? Were they treated [cut off] CULLEN: we didn’t have any uniforms, we just played every night. In the ser time. Not on the weekends. And it was um, I think I enjoyed playing that softball more than any sport. I think I liked it more than golf. PAULINE: we played it all the time all day long when I was a kid. CULLEN: Softball? Oh it gets into you doesn’t it? PAULINE: I didn’t really have a mitt for the longest time, I finally asked for a mitt for my birthday. I had one with no pocket in it, the pocket was coming off, and it was the only thing I had to keep my hand protected. CULLEN: I had an old black mitt, and you know, I punched holes in it and sowed it and put a string, a shoe lace across there, to hold my fingers together. I think afterward I see others they put leather on and around that up there at the top you know? And sowed their fingers together. But I did before they did I think. But that old glove... we used to play the ford republic. Have you heard of the ford republic? BAERT: I think I have heard of it. CULLEN: well Henry Ford had a place for wayward kids and uh, they had a big, what is it, a big farm. They had all kinds of things there. We used to play them. We used to go and play the Ford republic there and in softball, or baseball. I was pitching one time, I threw, I was the pitcher, I threw nine curve balls and struck out three guys. In nine pitches, they never touched the ball. Against the ford republic. But somebody stole my glove down there. Yeah that black one I had the black lace around it. So I went down there the next day and told em, I told the coach I said somebody stole my glove yesterday. He said he thinks he knew who just gone done it. And he went and looked in these guys locker and it wasn’t there, went in the next one and there it was. He knew the guys that were stealers. [Laughter in the background] CULLEN: and the coach he, I said someone stole my glove and he said, I think I can find it. And I couldn’t believe it. BAERT: do you remember, like how, when you were a kid, how civil rights were coming up? Or not really? CULLEN: nope, there were no, blacks, it was something to see a black person. You just didn’t see em around our house. BAERT: that was just one thing that we talked about. Um did you notice how society was starting to change more technological more uh emphasis on education at all? Did you ever notice that when you were a kid? How things were changing? CULLEN: no, not too much. I was... I would play hard and go right home to bed. Page 12 �BAERT: yeah this ser I worked in a factory, that’s exactly what I did too. I would work a twelve hour shift, id workout then I was... CULLEN: you would wanna go to bed! BAERT: haha exactly! PAULINE: He may have seen a difference in vehicles over the years being from Detroit. BAERT: before the war, did you have any presumptions or did you have any feelings about the war before3 you entered? CULLEN: oh I don’t think so. BAERT: you don’t think so? Was it, well it was all around you, but was it, was your family really focused on it at all with stamps or anything like that? CULLEN: I remember hearing President Roosevelt when he declared war on Japan. BENEDICT: but your brother was already in the service before wasn’t he? CULLEN: no. BENEDICT: oh he wasn’t? CULLEN: oh, he went in before I did but not very long before I did. BENEDICT: oh ok. CULLEN: I think I got discharged before he did. Couple, maybe two or three weeks but our division was the first one to break up too when the war ended; of the Marine divisions. BAERT: um, how were you treated when you came back? CULLEN: um pretty good, pretty good id say. BAERT: Pretty good? That was the one difference between each war when people came back, and how they were treated. CULLEN: I think everyone was treated the same, I think you got three hundred dollars. BAERT: oh really? CULLEN: Must turn out payment. Uh, I don’t think people got any more or any less, it was three hundred dollars and everyone got the same. BENEDICT: yeah, but think how the Vietnam vets were treated dad. Think about the Vietnam vets were treated when they came back. BAERT: yeah they were harassed and different things like that for a long time. Page 13 �CULLEN: oh... I don’t think we had any of that. BAERT: Oh, did you earn any service medals or any ribbons or anything like that? CULLEN: no. BAERT: No? CULLEN: oh, I got some citation for the unit citation; you know the citation everyone in our outfit got one. BAERT: oh ok. Um well after the war what kinda like jobs did you have, and uh like where you decided to settle down? CULLEN: it was pretty hard for me, I’d take, one year I think I had 6 or 7 jobs. BAERT: On the west side of the state? Over here? CULLEN: around Michigan, around Detroit. [Chuckles] I think I worked for the city the longest; I worked there a couple years. About 3 years. BENEDICT: and then how did you come up here dad? CULLEN: How’d I come up here? Well my mother had, lived just out here, on silver crick road. And uh, I used to come up here. I seen and ended up playing golf at white lake, I used to play at white lake. MR. BENEDICT: That’s where he met his wife BAERT: oh ok CULLEN: I got to meet her, and next thing we got married. It was uh Nina was now Max peach, this is a story from Max peach she is an old timer out there. But Nina beat all the men down there one Sunday morning; her golf score was lower than any of the men [chuckles]. And Max, he never forgets a thing. He knows just how far he hit the ball on number 8! At white lake. [Laughter in the background] CULLEN: I even forgot that. BENEDICT: it was amazing that we are living out there and being out there. Having that be our golf course and that’s where they met. PAULINE: that’s pretty neat. BENEDICT: then Jenna, our daughter, met her husband there; he was the assistant pro at the golf course and met Eric at White lake. PAULINE: so how did the men take getting beat by a woman, did they handle it very well? [Laughter breaks out] Page 14 �CULLEN: Ma that tickled max peach more than anybody. BAERT: when you were raising your kids, you rose them on the west side right? CULLEN: they all went to Montigue. BAERT: how do you think that was different for them from you, growing up in Detroit? CULLEN: ohh I think they have way more to offer the kids this day, but uh I think like the, I told Donna the other day I took two hours of typing in ah, I never monkied with a type writer sense, and the key board, I still remembered it. BENEDICT: I showed him my cell phone, the texting, and he knows that they were the same way the type writer was? And I said yeah. And he rattled off the order of the keys. BAERT: oh yeah? CULLEN: and I haven’t picked up a type writer in… I have not been around one sense I was in school, in 9th grade. END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b3b4bd04e3de773a30524bc505bd2c3f.mp3 30d68b880445b5734a29f13467703995 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Cullen_Donald Title A name given to the resource Donald Cullen audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cullen, Donald Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Baert, Ian Taylor, Heather Description An account of the resource Donald Cullen grew up near Royal Oak, Michigan. After being in the 4th Marine division on Iwo Jima, he was stationed in Hawaii before returning to Michigan. Donald now lives in Whitehall, Michigan, near his daughters. His love for the game of golf is as great now as it was back in high school. He discusses war. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Veterans--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3c505f6863f004afd609f583bd32caa1.pdf 5bb9124d21c881e7eacf778241323098 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jacqueline Decker Interviewer(s): Emma Jack Supervising Faculty: Danielle Lake Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: October 26, 2011 Runtime: 01:08:05 Biography and Description Born March, 3rd 1959 to parents Richard and Eve Holland. Youngest of three children with brothers Gary and Terry. Grew up in Grand Rapids, graduating from Crestwood high school. She then continued her education at Central Michigan University with a major in English and a minor in psychology. Ran cross country and track and field on the varsity teams. Met her husband (now of 30 years), Steven Decker in the dorms on campus in her freshman year, his sophomore year. Was married at age 22 and moved to Fremont, Michigan following her husband’s job at Gerber, while being a sports journalist for the Grand Rapids press. After several years she felt a calling to return to school and become a teacher. On July 18th, 1989, her first [adopted] child Zachary Michael was born. She and her family then moved to Rockford to start her new job as a teacher. On July 22, 1991, her second [adopted] child Andrea Lin was born. On August 16th, 1992 her last [biological] child Samantha Louise was born. She has been an English teacher at Rockford High School for 20+ years. She has also provided a home for several pugs over the years, those now being Molly (8 years old) and Crissy (11 years old). Transcript JACK: Hi, my name is Emma Jack and I’m here today with: Brooke Davis, Brittany Renninger, Kevin, Samantha Decker; and we are going to be speaking with Jackie Dekker today at GVSU. We are here today to talk about your experiences with education in west Michigan. DECKER: How are you today? JACK: I’m great, how are you? DECKER: I’m great, thanks JACK: So tell us a little bit about yourself and your background. Page 1 �DECKER: My name is Jackie Decker I was born in Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids on 3/2/59. My parents were college sweethearts form Comstock park, I have two brothers one 9 years older, one 5 years older, from Comstock park and Byron center respectively. JACK: What was it like to grow up in west Michigan? DECKER: It was a typical 60’s lifestyle. Two parent homes and my elementary was just a neighborhood school until 4th grade and then a bunch of kids were bused in. 456 grade were an integrated school. Middle school was typical only two families that weren’t Caucasian. One family was black, and one family was Asian. I went to Creston high school, which was pretty much considered an inner city high school, which was 2/3 of the neighborhood. JACK:x What made you decide to stay in west Michigan? DECKER: I didn’t think I would because Grand Rapids was a dying town when growing up, and I wanted to move as far away as possible. But once your from west Michigan its hard to get away. I currently live in Rockford with surprisingly a lot of my classmates from Creston High school. I believe a lot of people like west Michigan not only for the lakes, which are great. It has changed a lot since the 50’s 60’s lifestyles but the same family values that I grew to appreciate are still intertwined in society. JACK:x How would you describe your own identity? If you were to describe yourself to someone else how would you describe yourself? DECKER: I grew up congregational, I now go to a Methodist church, but I could probably go to any Christian church and feel good about myself while doing so. I have strong family values, I like it when people get married and have children and family life. I wouldn’t discriminate against people who don’t live that way but I still have some of those same strong family values. Very strong work ethic put forth the very best effort I can. Its still surprising that some people can get away with what they can by doing so little work. JACK: How would you describe your identity in the school system? DECKER: Probably in the same way. I usually don’t leave the school until about 4:30 compared to some others who take off right after class, etc. They know that I participate in students’ athletic events, speaking at special events (fellowship Christian athletes). I have the gay/straight association in my classes. Most kids would say that I’m a very challenging teacher because I make them work hard but at the same time they would consider it a safe haven. JACK: What do you teach? DECKER: I teach honors English 10 and regular English 11. JACK: Can you explain a little more about the fellowship Christian athletes? DECKER: It’s not always athletes; we have a huge contingent of students in the school who really go to a Baptist church. A huge mega Baptist church, and a lot of them start and have gotten involved in that. They get together pray. We get together talk and ask how I got into teaching, and I felt led to go into Page 2 �teaching. They meet on wed and I have two groups of kids that meet in my room on Mondays. On Fridays about 20 kids come in and sing praise songs. JACK: So you really have open doors to any organization. DECKER: Absolutely. JACK: Would there be any kind of organization you’d keep your door closed to? DECKER: The anime club, because I don’t know how to draw hahaha just kidding JACK: Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adult hood where you felt you were treated differently because of your profession or your gender? DECKER: I would say even though there are more female teachers in our school system at Rockford it is a male dominated school system. The principal at my building is a female, and most buildings have female in some capacity in a leader figure. JACK: How would you describe the differences between men and women in the school system? DECKER: Men get away with so much more than women. If I swore at children or made a racist joke I would get in a lot more trouble than a guy would get in trouble for. JACK: Did your school system have a male superintendent or a higher up male personnel? DECKER: We never had a female in any of those higher positions, we have a superintendent and two assistant superintendents, both male. People are almost fearful to speak out a lot with these issues. JACK: So its something that has been noticed in your community? DECKER: Our school board is eclectic. But any time someone runs for the school board they all say they’re going to make changes, but they just ultimately do what the superintendents want them to do. JACK: Do you feel like that inhibits you from doing the things you want to do in your classroom? DECKER: It doesn’t inhibit me from doing things within my classroom for the most part. I’m not a buddybuddy with the principal. Him and the other teachers know what I stand for and they know I’m doing a good job so they leave me alone. I’m in a hallway with only one other teacher. JACK: I know your in a system where all the other English teachers are all male, do you feel like that inhibits you from doing the things that you wish you could do, do you feel intimidated? DECKER: No not really. They’re big sci-fi fans so they want to read all these sci-fi books, but I’m not afraid of them at all. This past year some of them honored me for teaching and said I really deserved it. In there own way they have there own little boys club too. JACK: But they respect you? DECKER: Absolutely, I don’t have that at all from any of the men in our department. Page 3 �JACK: Is it true that you did not start your career in education? DECKER: Nope I started my career as a sports reporter for the Grand Rapids press covering high school sports. JACK: What do you think led you to become a teacher from that? DECKER: I just got a feeling that god wanted me to be working with high school students in a different way. When I was in high school I didn’t like the other students because I had brothers that were much older and parents who were much older. I thought they were kind of stupid and did dumb things. I kind of grew up old. I felt that there was need there and this will be my 22nd year. JACK: Were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the treatment of diverse individuals in society? DECKER: I had an uncle who he really had a negative view of people that were diverse. He said a derogatory statement at the table, and I ended up standing up and leaving because I was really mad. He had a very negative view of blacks. I had a great 5th and 6th grade teacher, he really made an impact on me on how these people are just different than I am with really no difference. About 5 years after i moved onto high school he became a defense attorney in grand rapids and defended the people who couldn’t get anyone else to defend them, he really changed the way I look at people. JACK: Have you kept in contact with him? DECKER: I used to seem him at road races (we were both runners.) I haven’t seen him in a long while, but every now and then there’ll be case where nobody wants it and he’ll swoop in and take it on. He is a champion for the underdogs and different races. He really changed my life. JACK: Would you say he’s a big impact on how you treat students today? DECKER: I would say so. Just the way he looked at people, I look at people differently because of that. My parents had prejudices, but they didn’t have mean prejudices, they just had prejudices born on ignorance and I wouldn’t say that they were like my uncle. But they were prejudice. One young man asked me out on a date that happened to be black, and I said it wasn’t a very good idea because of the fact that neither of our parents were going to think that it was a good idea. But I would say that Mr. Dorian? Changed my view of things. JACK: Is it difficult for you now to come into a society where everything is so mixed and you have to be accepting? DECKER: No. Teaching has been a great place for me to be. I see all different types of students that really open my eyes to how diverse people can be. I have grown to be accepting of these students, because they’re great kids. I have a daughter (not Sam) that came home a month or so ago with a pierced eyebrow and now kids are piercing their ears, and various other facial parts. We are adoptive parents. Our son was adopted when he was 2 days old from Tacoma Washington. He’s Caucasian. Our daughter Andrea’s birth mom is 100% Vietnamese, and she was a student at Calvin college. She gave birth to Page 4 �Andrea and now she is a part of our family. My mom lost a brother, he was in a control tower on a naval vessel, and a kamikaze hit the control tower so she had a total distrust of people who were Asian. In 9th grade my dad had surgery and his doctor who saved his life was Asian. I think that was all healing and when our daughter Andrea was born we asked “are you going to be able to love an Asian child?” and she said this may be really good for me. Unfortunately she only lived to when Andrea was 2 and Sam was 1. She didn’t get a chance to really meet them. I’m very accepting to everyone. I’ll admit that some people who make decision like gauging out their ears I think to myself “woa, can you sew that back together?” But overall I have to be very accepting with the position that I’m in. (starting at minute 14)-----and Sam was one so…she didn’t get a chance but I am very accepting of—but, I ya know, people have big holes in their ears I admit and it’s like, woah, can you cut that thing off and sew it back together? (laughs) But I have to be very accepting in the position that I am in. JACK: Would you say that there are still some teachers today even in your school system that are not very accepting of those students? DECKER: Absolutely. And the kids know. The kids know who cares about them and who’s accepting and not and I would say one of the issues, one of the issues that is still fairly big, probably, is kids in Rockford who are gay. You know? And kids—most of them just try to fly under the radar. They just—I mean I, ya know, fly under the radar. And we have the Gay, Straight Association and stuff like that, but there’s only about seven kids who go to that. You know, not that many kids go but they find acceptance there—but, ya know, I—and I know that, you know, there are a lot of jokes made and things like that and I always feel for those kids. JACK: Do you feel that their studies suffer because--? DECKER: Oh yeah, I’m sure they—they’re always just trying very hard not to be gay—to show that they’re gay. JACK: So you think that there is a lot of stress there that is taking away from what they could be because they’re just trying not to be something that society doesn’t want them to be? DECKER: They don’t want to be noticed. They really don’t want to be noticed. So I would say yeah, absolutely that’s stressful. They don’t want to go to school—and, and these aren’t even the kids who have identifies themselves as gay. They are just, just trying to get out of there as quietly as possible. And then there are other kids that are really embraced—the king, they boy who was just nominated homecoming king is gay. And a couple years ago—a couple years was? Yeah. So it’s not like the student body is not accepting. The student body is fairly accepting—you know, overall—I think they’re even more worried about some of the teachers not being accepting. It’s still West Michigan, conservative West Michigan. So yeah—but the student body will vote for 12 guys [for homecoming court] and pick the guy who is gay for their king and he’s pretty accepting. JACK: Do, like, some of the teachers openly, like, make statements that are derogatory to them? --or so they know which—or is it making the student uncomfortable if they were in their class? Page 5 �DECKER: I—I think people will try to be very politically correct—I think they just let kids say things that, you know I would say, “hey, don’t say that.” Um…um and you know, I think that’s more—I think that kids, um, it’s not that teachers necessarily will say things, um, ‘cause they’ve been trained not to say anything that’s not politically correct. But I think they’ll let the kids get away with things. JACK: Do you feel that you are trying to stand up for the kids because some teachers won’t? Like you said, some teachers will allow students to say things or let students get away with things, but do you feel that you try to go out of your way to help these students because your faculty members don’t? DECKER: Probably—it’s funny that, you know, that I’m going to talk at an FCA, but then you’ve got GSA, and in—in some ways—and I’m—I’m thinking that I might talk to the FCA about—Fellowship of Christian athletes—about hey, love everybody. You know, don’t just love the kids who go to your church, and that’s easy to do, but to love everybody, you know. Really, how are you reaching out to the handicap kids in our building? We had a girl last year who was blind—and I don’t think there were very many people who even said hi to her and it’s like, you know she was a really really smart girl and very nice and I just think that, um, I just want—I just think—I guess I’ve always just kind of loved people and—and want them to feel safe. I think that’s the best way to put it. JACK: Have you experienced things that—where there has been, say, a specific situation where there has been discrimination against a student that you have been witness to? DECKER: Particularly, I don’t think so. I haven’t, like, seen anybody get beaten up. I haven’t seen anybody, um—we are a—at Rockford High School, I brought something with me that said that…we have 1881 white kids in nine through twelve. We have 40 Hispanic, 39 black or African American, 21 Asian, three American Indian-Alaskan, and then I think we have 2 Hawaiian or Pacific Island. So it’s really a white school and I—I haven’t seen, like, any of the white kids picking on the black kids or the Hispanic kids…but over the course of the years I think the kids have become more politically correct too—I haven’t seen that, haven’t necessarily seen anyone pick on anyone who is gay, or Asian, or anything else like that—haven’t seen anyone pick on anything like that but you know, I just—I want to make sure that my room is a pace where anyone can come in and feel safe. So I haven’t seen any particular incidents where kids were like, you know, I mean like I said, we have a king who is gay—people aren’t going to boo.—they’re not going to boo or anything they’re very polite…it’s a polite community. JACK: So would you say that’s changed over the years? We’ve become—that our society has become more tolerant towards them? DECKER: Oh yeah—you’re generation is so much more tolerant than ten years ago or twenty years ago when I first started teaching—I’m more tolerant. I would’ve let those jokes go twenty years ago, I admit it. And you know—and my family they used to make—there used to be, like, racial jokes or stuff like that and I would—I—it’s only as an adult and the more I’ve worked in the school system that I’ve become more open minded myself, you know? But I don’t know, your generation’s a whole lot different than my generation was—and I went to a school that was integrated…but there were fights sometimes and that—there wasn’t a lack of safety but it wasn’t—there was always a lack of ignorance. I don’t think you’re so ignorant of each other anymore. And I push not being ignorant of each other—okay so it’s like, Page 6 �so, so that person’s black? He’s got more pigment—we’re always trying to get tan (laughs) I mean really? Why does this matter? You know? So, I guess I think your generation is a ton more tolerant. I’ve seen a lot of change—Rockford when I first started was class size of about 350. And my *first+ daughter’s class was 680. I think this year we only have 600, but, you know, when you go from 350 who all grow up on farms around Rockford and the few people who live in downtown Rockford, um, and then all-asudden you start bringing in this diversity of economics …we have some really really rich people there and some really really poor people and we have a lot of people in the middle—we have school of choice—we just have to be very flexible. JACK: Do you think that a lot of the different racial or ethnic groups kind of clump together? Is there a lot of mixture with the students? DECKER: There’s a lot of mixture—they don’t have a choice. There are only 39 black students in the school? They can’t all just hang out with black kids. I mean, truly, they don’t—and Hispanic—I’m thinking really? We have 4000—you can’t tell! Everybody mixes. I mean my one daughter’s Asian—she really grew up white. You know it wasn’t like there was a bunch of Asian kids to hang out. So I think they have no choice—they have to—when—as I was telling my friend when we had dinner, kids who come in who are black, if they come in from outside the community, they may act like they’re inner-city for about a year and then they’re Rockford. Everybody just mixes…I don’t think that’s the big deal. It used to be a big deal but it’s not a big deal anymore. JACK: What kinds of organizations are available for kids at Rockford that really promote diversity within the student body? DECKER: We have a diversity club, but I don’t know if it’s met at all this year. Then I said, we have GSA, Gay-Straight Association?—or I think its Alliance—I think that’s what it is. Um…and then like I said, the anime club which sometimes will get, like, your skaters and people like that—but, um, I mean— they’re—and we have FCA and we have chess club and eco club and stuff like that so there are a lot of different clubs—but as far as diversity we just have the one diversity club. So…there isn’t a lot—what else is out there that’s available. JACK: Do you think it’s important for students to really, kind of up that? Or make it better? DECKER: You know, I think that would be probably helpful. I think—umm—the entire student body has been trained with guest speakers and things over the years to kind of look at each other as oh, yeah we’re just all equal. We do a good job of bringing in guest speakers. JACK: I have heard that at Rockford you have to be either really good at sports or really good-looking or really good in the arts or music or something to kind of… I guess, get along there and if you don’t have one of those, you’re going to have a tough time at Rockford. Would you say that that is true? Would you say that it was true and it’s changing now? Do you have any opinion on that subject? DECKER: I think it’s changing now…when you mention sports…or, like we have band…a lot of band kids hang with band kids and a lot of choir people hang with choir people. Um—I think it’s changed a lot though over the years…um I think if kids spend time doing those things in which they have to be good Page 7 �at—it’s just they spend so much time with those people that they become their friends but I think it—I think there’s a pretty decent mix—I don’t think people are necessarily prejudice. When I put groups together I always try to put people of different—you know, groups together but I don’t think it’s as…mmm…. Let’s see but I’m not in it, I’m not in a click, I don’t have to worry about “clicky-ness”. I don’t notice that so much…you may know more about that than I do JACK: How has your faith influenced the way you think about diversity and the way your present yourself in situations? DECKER: Um, you know, what I think that my faith has a lot to do with it because I just grew up when, you know, “Jesus love the little children” everybody, you know, we’re supposed to love each other and do unto others as you would have others do unto you and so i think my faith has a lot to do with it. Not to say that people who don’t have faith wouldn’t have the same attitudes towards people. I think sometimes if kids realize, you know, I’m a Christian, sometimes I think people might go, “oh, well she’s going to be like, judgmental” and things like that and I’m not and then it takes them by surprise and they’re glad about that. And so then I think we get along quite well. JACK: Can you tell us more about your schooling when you were younger and maybe about things that you came across with diversity? DECKER: Well, I went to Aberdine Elementary School …um which was three blocks from my house and as I said, it was just a neighborhood school until fourth grade they—um many kids were bused in—I’m not even sure where they were bused in from, but somewhere else in Grand Rapids. Um, and it was a mixture, it wasn’t just…um…busing in black kids, but it was to integrate the school system and the law said integrate the school system and um, so—you know when you’re a little kid? And kids are kids are kids, you know? You’re not even like, “oh my gosh” you know, it’s not that big of a deal, it’s more what your parents say that you start to notice things. But, um, you know, so I think growing up in that elementary and then—and I went to a junior high that was back to being a neighborhood school, you know, and there was the one Asian family and they were really smart, and there was the one black family. And then we went to the high school and that was very integrated. So, I think that I just realized—and I went on to college and was on teams, you know, I was on track in high school and in middle school and then in college I was on sport—I was on track and cross country and track was a very integrated sport. So, I think I just kind of grew up knowing that, you know—you know we’re all just athletes at that point. So—I don’t think I—but I, you know, there are still a lot of people who still have prejudices and things like that. JACK: Was there anything that stands out to you—I don’t know if you remember—in like, when you were growing up in like, elementary school, you said that you went to a, um, integrated school—was there any, um, like with the adults, like the teachers there, did they have any, like, that they were against it? Being—? DECKER: I think my fourth grade teacher she was – she did not have good control of the unique classroom that we had, she probably had decent control over, you know, when it was all just this whiteneighborhood kids and things like that. When you bring in a different culture, she did not have—she did Page 8 �not have good control over that. But then that fifth and sixth grade teacher that I had—he was a champion for the people—and I know our class was—had some integration in it and so I would say that his influence probably filtered down to some of the other teachers. But sure, there were some teachers who didn’t want to be teaching at an inner-city school. So, Aberdine was one of the farther north elementary schools, and so I think that was a big shock for them and hard to control. In high school, I don’t remember…I mean I do remember a couple fights between kids, but I don’t think the teachers…I don’t remember anything. And we had—we had more------------ non-Caucasian teachers when I graduated in 77 at Creston. We have, we don't have any non-white teachers at Rockford that I can think of in the whole system. We have a couple of security guards who are non-white and we have a pool manager who is non-white. And every teacher in the system, that I can think of is white. That says something. JACK: Is that including like the school board and superintendent and everybody? DECKER: Absolutely. JACK: Wow. Do you think that has an effect on the students? DECKER: Absolutely, I think, you know, if I was black and the only people I ever saw at the building were white I think that would make me have to be somewhat white because I don't have anyone from my culture. Although we bring in speaker and stuff we still don't understand each other's cultures so when people come into our school they have to basically become white. JACK: Do you think it would be good for you school system to bring in some diverse teachers? DECKER: Yeah, there's got to be someone who has applied for a position in Rockford, who isn't white, who maybe is in a wheelchair or something you know so that people can say that people who have handicaps are able to have positions and someone who is um Asian. I mean when I was in high school we had some foreign teachers who were in there who didn't quite speak English the same way we did. And I'm just amazed that there is not some rule that says you have to have some diversity. JACK: With who's running the school system now do you think that's going to change? DECKER: If somebody different was running it? JACK: With who you have now. DECKER: O, no, I don't think so. I don't think there will be a push for that. And right now there is a hiring freeze for the most part so no one is hiring anybody. I was hired in with about 30 people in 1991 and we were all white. and... JACK: So even your, I didn't mean to interrupt sorry, your foreign language teachers, they're not like, or your Spanish teachers, they're not like Hispanic or anything like that even? DECKER: No, we do have a Hispanic teacher at our building, Mrs. Shordsma, you know who she is? no, no, no, she teaches social studies. And she was the one who had started up the diversity club, and she is the only Hispanic in our building. Page 9 �JACK: Well we have a Japanese teacher DECKER: O yeah if forgot about her, she teaches English. She struggles but, she's not very good with English but she's a great Japanese teacher. I forgot about Meg. Yeah, other than that but, our German Teacher, he's not German, none of our Spanish teachers are Spanish, the French teachers, they're not French and they are very white. Women, for the most part. JACK: That's really interesting, like for me where I went to school we had at least two out of the three Spanish teachers were Hispanic, they knew the language very fluently. And not to say that your teachers don't know the language fluently. DECKER: Well they don't know it in the same way. JACK: Right, but and the culture. DECKER: Well they can talk about the culture but... JACK: They don't know it. DECKER: They don't know the culture. They've never lived the culture. JACK: Do you think that maybe the teachers and the faculty should kind of join together to bring more diversity, or do you think that it's kind of between a rock and a hard place in that situation? DECKER: We're always, you know, and often we've had meetings that we've had to go to that were about diversity. That's just, well look at us you know, we look around there, if we get the whole staff together from the district, there are probably about 500 teachers, and they're all for the most part like I said, a bunch of white people. Who, most of whom probably grew up in West Michigan. So, um, it would be nice to have diversity but probably, I mean truthfully nobody would push for that. JACK: That's very interesting. DECKER: uh huh JACK: Teaching for the past twenty years have you witnessed changes in diversity being the amount of it within the school and the amount of it becoming more prominent? DECKER: I think school of choice is going to continue to impact a lot of schools. I think Rockford will get more and more diverse, um, I don't want to say clientele which sounds kind of weird, um, but I don't think we will ever, I don't think our district will ever be diverse like Kentwood, or the Forest Hills Northern schools, when, when, people move in from foreign countries like Bosnia and things like that, they are not going to pick Rockford. We don't have the, um, we don't have the manpower to help them learn the language. We have a Spanish Immersion class that started in Kindergarten and now, I think, those kids are up to 8th grade. But those are still white kids learning Spanish. And there actually might be a couple of Hispanic teachers in there. But see I'm not in elementary school, so I haven't seen it. I, I think that school choice makes a difference, but I don't think that we are ever going to become diverse. Like even, my brother's at Comstock Park high school, they have become, that used to be just a middle Page 10 �class white school system. And with the influx of students who are living on Alpine like in York Creek or something like that said it's very diversified, I have a friend I met with tonight that teaches at Sacred Heart Elementary she says that her population went from mostly middle class white people to Hispanic, because the neighborhoods have changed. I don't see that happening at Rockford. I say, that if you talk to me 10 years from now and I'll say we have 59 black students, maybe more, but not, not, it will not become a diverse school system. So, not for a while, I'm not quite sure why maybe there is not jobs out there or something. JACK: Why would people choose Rockford as a school choice? DECKER: Great education. I mean, I talked to somebody last week and he said that you know, we ,we did not, my wife and I were not in private education, we were pretty eerie about putting our kids into a school system and he said I have no complaints with Rockford, the teachers all care about kids and they want them to have a good education so that's why people would want to move to Rockford so I'm just surprised that more people don't come North to Rockford, they just don't. JACK: Do you think it's, um, people aren't choosing that because education isn't as important to people as maybe other things as like sports and stuff like that? DECKER: Well it's a huge sports school though, I mean we have, you know, we joke about how many state championships we've won over the years and things like that. Um, I think that maybe people are afraid maybe that if they come to Rockford they won't be accepted. And I think that, you know, we don't have any choice I mean you're going to accept people because you do. That's just the way the world is, it's a, you know it's a very accepting world so I think maybe that's the reason, a lot of people at Rockford actually has a little bit of a bad reputation because we are so good in sports, kind of like Grand Valley, and um, know that our sports teams, you know everybody is successful and things like that. Um, but I think that people are afraid of the lack of acceptance, but, I don't think, It's harder I think for kids who are poorer and for kids who are of a different race. At Rockford. JACK: Do you think Rockford prepares like most of your seniors who are going off to college, do you think that your school prepares them for the amount of diversity that they are going to experience in college or do you think that? DECKER: I think we try but I don't think we can do that, I mean, my daughter when she left Rockford and went to Michigan State, she said all these Asian people were trying to say hi to her and make conversation with her. Well she couldn't do that because well, you know she speaks English. But she never said it was a shock for her, and Michigan State is a lot more diverse than Grand Valley is, Grand Valley's a lot like Rockford. Um, Michigan State is really diverse but I don't think she's ever said that she's had any problem with anybody of different race. So I don't think, I think she was prepared; we do the best that we can with what we have. JACK: Have there been any landmark events that have changed your opinion dealing with diversity? DECKER: You know, um, landmark as in my own classroom or landmark like something that happened in the nation? Page 11 �JACK: Basically anything that you, I know you discussed more of your family when you were younger but in the nation or... DECKER: You know, landmark events that kind of changed my opinions, really, um, would be the "I have a dream" speech by Dr. Martin Luther King I was probably 8 or 9 at the time, that made quite an impression on me, um, in my classroom I think just, you know, seeing, seeing that it doesn't matter what kids look like they're still kids, um, I think that's made a huge difference in my life. But, as far as like something, you know like, getting or having a black president or something like that will you know, I'm like, it's about time. You know, are you kidding me, you know, slavery ended in 1860s so you know, um, I guess that, you know, the big things for me would have been like my teacher and Dr. Martin Luther King's speech. JACK: Do you have any students that in particular stood out to you or I know over the years you said that your own children have changed your views on teaching, or, how you deal with students in the classroom, anything like that? DECKER: um not necessarily just... Just you know, like I can remember this one guy he had hair longer than I ever dreamed of having and there all the boys were wearing their hair short. I just remember thinking, I mean that changed my way of looking at people with long hair, guys with long hair. And having a student, you know say, you know my dreams for my future are this and knowing that this kid is one of those gay kids who's just trying to slide under the radar so he's making up what he thought I would want to hear, but you know that makes, that changes the way I feel about kids and I just think you know, just being with kids all the time. As I said, kids are kids are kids and I felt that way around the world; people are people are people nobody's my enemy necessarily, um, you know just because they come from a different country doesn't mean they're my enemy, their government might be an enemy of my government but people in Afghanistan are not my enemies. JACK: Would you say your views are constantly changing or your... DECKER: They're improving. JACK: Yeah. DECKER: Growing, yes, I have a lot of years left hopefully to grow but I'm getting better and better. Like I said, when I first started teaching I probably have some of those same prejudices and things like that and now I'm not afraid to say to kids, hey you know, why, you know that doesn't fly here. We don't talk like that, or you need to apologize or you're not going to act that way. And it's not o.k. that it's o.k. with you and him between you to say those kinds of things, it's not o.k. with me. You know, but I say it in a nice way. You know, instead of, I mean, maybe years ago I would have said it in a meaner way, but now I say it in a very nice way. JACK: You said that there were people in your family that used to be prejudice towards other people, have you seen them change at all? DECKER: Um, one of my brothers would probably fly a Confederate flag if he could. Um, but, you know and it's funny because my mother in law, I wouldn't say she's a prejudice person but she still refers to Page 12 �people that are black as colored. And you know she just never evolved with the times. I had a student last year though, her dad is black and her mom was white and this girl's quite, she's quite white actually and she said I would identify with black and would you want to be called African American and she said no, I'm not African American, I'm an American; a black American and I don't want to be called African American which has been really interesting. But as far as family members go I don't think really, I mean, besides this one brother of mine and I think he's had to evolve, um, he still will say things but not in the same way that he used to because he's had to become more politically correct. My other brother, he's a counselor and he's, he's, he's fairly open minded so, I think that um prejudices, there still are more prejudices toward gender identity and things like that, but I don't anybody would be so rude to in the family to say things. JACK: I know in education a lot of times teachers have to deal with parents, has there been any issues with parents or have you connected with any parents over diversity in school? DECKER: I, um, I think most parents know, I, I, I, a good thing. They know that um, it's a safe place to be, in my room and things like that. So I haven't had to deal with that, um, in a negative way. Just in a positive way. But mostly everybody's just like well thanks for making them work really hard and that type of thing. JACK: Have you had any students come to you and thank you for what you've done and opening your doors and things like that? DECKER: Oh yeah, this one girl gives me a hug like every single day. (Laughing) Oh hi Mrs. Decker. This one junior that I had last year, she is part of GSA, and I am like your fine its great your fine and I think that that group it’s kind of weird for me to connect with that group not because I’m prejudice or anything like that just because you know I am not the teacher in charge of that group but I think that group and the kids in that group have connected with me a lot, and it is like I said this one girl gives me a hug every day and hangs around my room and stuff like that. But I have kids who will come in my room and just eat at lunch. I mean because they don’t have anywhere else to go and I am like ok yeah know come on in my room and eat and sit there. And yeah know this year I don’t, but I have had like foreign exchange students who will just hang out until they got a group they could meet and things like that. So, I think that they just know I am a friend, and I am a teacher, and even though I work them really hard. Most kids I tell them they are not going to like me when they have me, but the year after they have me they will like me. But no, I think most kids know I am very safe. I guess the only prejudice I have is that they are not allowed to wear Western Michigan stuff in my classroom. It was college day today because it is our spirit week, and this one girl walks by and says Mrs. Decker I almost wore my Western Michigan shirt just to bug you. I went to Central and Grand Valley. But no, I think that you know I do have kids that come to me and kids feel comfortable with me. And I like I said I but a GSA sign up and I put and FCA sign up if I had to and a diversity club sign up, so I just think everyone feels pretty comfortable. But, I don’t know that that was true twenty years ago. So, I think I have changed. JACK: I know that you mentioned that you have adopted children. What led you to adoption? Page 13 �DECKER: Umm…You know even when I was little I think that in the back of my mind I thought I would do that. I thought I was going to grow up and be a missionary or something like that. But some of those countries have really big bugs. And that’s the truth. But you know when my husband and I weren’t able to have children we had no problem; we wanted to have children so we were willing to adopt. But I’ll have to say that before our son was born and he is twenty- two the doctor who had been my OBGYN person moved out to Wautoma, Washington and she called us with a possible adoption, and the child was going to be black. And I said we can’t do that. And she said I am so surprised I thought you could love any child. I said I could love any child but we were living in Newaygo we weren’t living in Grand Rapids. We were living in Newaygo, Michigan and I don’t think that child in Newaygo, Michigan in this day and age can be accepted. I said I will not do this to a child, and at this point in time we had no plans to move anywhere else. My husband worked at Gerber in Fremont and I was a sports reporter covering sports in that area and we had no plans to move. So, then I said no I won’t adopt that child just because it won’t be good for that child. Now living in Grand Rapids and Rockford it would not have been a problem at all. Then, when our daughter when she was going to be born and we were chosen to be her birth parents we went through Bethany Christian Services for Andrea. I said the only person who we need to call and say is this ok is my mom. I said can you love this Asian child or are you going to reject this Asian child. So we just wanted to have children and things like that. And race would not have made any difference, but location made a difference. We had a pretty honest feel for that situation; there were no black kids in Newaygo. So, being a black child at that time was not going to be well received. So, we just knew that. JACK: Have you felt any discrimination toward your adopted child Andrea? Is that… DECKER: You know I did not. I did not. And I had known about it till years later that a parent said did you know a student called her a derogatory term. And she never told me that. She was always very good at handling her things and things like that. And I said no. So then I asked her about that and I said well what happened with this; this like last year and what happened and she said yeah so and so called me a spic, and I said she didn’t even get her derogatory term correct you’re not Hispanic yeah know. That’s a derogatory term for someone who is Hispanic and that. So I said well what was your reaction and she said well I just decided that that person wasn’t really a friend. Then, a couple years later I found out that there was a little bit more to it than that because she wrote a paper when she was a senior and I said you never told me any of this. And so there was not necessarily that kind of terminology and it was some other things like that, but she was always good at handling that. But I think she pretty much grew up white. Yeah. And not because we didn’t like when the girls were little I put them in summer class for a week and they learned Vietnamese. Do you remember that at all? JACK: No DECKER: No. (Laughter) Andrea learned the Vietnamese, and she has connected in the last years with her birth mom. Who lives in um Texas and she a half sister and two half brothers, and she met the half sister this summer that is fifteen years old and things like that. But their white too because their birth mom was adopted straight out of Tycoon and was raised in the US by a white, English School teacher. So, she was raised pretty white too. Not like we tried to take her to Buddhist temples and things like Page 14 �that. Yeah know we never did anything like that. And our son is Caucasian. So, um but I don’t think she felt really prejudice against do you? You’d no better than I do. JACK: She said she feels like a white person. DECKER: Absolutely I am sure she feels like a white person; she grew up very white. JACK: And she went to Michigan State? DECKER: She is at Michigan State. JACK: She is. DECKER: And her dorm; her first dorm was totally integrated. People from everywhere. But I don’t think she met many people. I think pretty much her roommate was dad was white mom was black they got along great and things like that. I think she mixes well with various races. But she is still probably hanging out with white people because she is living with white people. So. Is there anything else? JACK: Where do you think the members of the diverse student body have made the most progress in the school system? DECKER: I would probably have to say acceptance. Right. It is interesting, we used to stereotype somebody, if you’re this color your good at this sport or that sport or something like that. And I just think that it’s a huge mix and everybody just mixes in at Rockford and I think just that just being accepted is where we have made the most progress. JACK: Where do you think the least amount of progress has been made? As far as you said that most gay kids still try to fly under the radar. DECKER: Yeah I think that is where the least progress has been made. For somebody who is a different gender identity. Racial isn’t a big deal, but genderism is a deal. JACK: So you would say this community has become a lot more tolerant. I don’t know if you would go as far as saying that don’t mind but they like a gay or lesbian population or something like that. So, why would you say that these students are still just trying to get out of there without being noticed? DECKER: I think it’s a societal thing. I think it’s still that society is not accepting or the different and I don’t think it is so much the students. We have had some kids that are openly gay, who were incredibly popular. So, I don’t think it’s the students so much, it’s a societal thing. I don’t think you are going to get beaten up in the bathroom because he’s gay or she is gay. And I would say it is probably the guys who are gayer that slide under the radar and the girls don’t really care. It is hard to know, girls are friendly with each other anyways, I mean it’s not just like you will see someone who is just best friends hanging out or putting their arm around each other. So I don’t think it is as noticeable with girls as it is with guys. Looking at it is a societal thing. JACK: Would you say that that is less in Michigan? You know compared to a different state like California, or Chicago. You don’t think that that would have much of an issue as in west Michigan? Page 15 �DECKER: I would say I think it is huge in west Michigan. It’s just a real conservative this side of the state. Which is good and which is bad. But it is changing, because we are forced to change. I would say your generation changes the most because of the media influence. With the media it is no big deal. The shows that are on today that you watch would have been unheard of when I was growing up. The people, the people you see living together and you see people who are actually gay or are pretending to be gay you see that a lot. And so I just think that your generation is changing things. JACK: In a good way? DECKER: I think it is a great way. Absolutely. People are People and People. Somewhere I learned along the line that judging is not good. I am not going to be judging someone because of who there are. I really don’t try to judge people because of their gender identity or something like that. I try not to. And yeah I still want people to have some of my same conservative views, but as far as…people are meant to be loved. JACK: So you don’t think bullying is a problem in Rockford or west Michigan at all? At some schools they bullying this huge thing; I never really saw it at my high school. DECKER: I don’t think so. I mean I have never had someone come to me and say I have been bullied or anything. I mean I don’t think so. I don’t even think when we have a three or four classrooms with special education kids and I don’t think those kids are bullied. They are just maybe left alone. But I don’t think they are bullied. I don’t think kids are mean to them. I think overall we are a pretty nice society. JACK: What kinds of changes do you hope to see in the future? DECKER: Well I would like to see more diversity as far as staff. Uh, I think that’d be great, you know, I would feel really uncomfortable if I like went to a school and everyone was not my race; you know it would be nice to have somebody, a secretary, somebody in the counseling office, somebody, you know, coaching; I think I think all the coaches are white, even, even all the football coaches, the basketball coaches, you know, you name it, whatever we have, everybody the custodians, nothing that’s all pretty homogenized. So, I think it would be nice to change; bring some people in that are qualified. See somebody, see a teacher in a wheelchair, you know, and um we had somebody apply one time, that’s all I remember, I don’t even think, I don’t think people even apply to Rockford sometimes; they probably think it’s a real white society. I would like to see that change. JACK: How do you see that change taking place? DECKER: Very slowly. The only way it’s going to change is if people just start, people who are more diverse than what we have just start applying and applying and applying and eventually, you know, you have got to say, “come on, these people are qualified.” I mean you can’t be turning those away. But, I think that maybe if we had somebody different in, um, the administration or something like that, um, but, I don’t know; it’s just going to change really slowly, because it’s just the way we are. I don’t think we are necessarily not hiring people who are diverse, but I think most diverse people would probably not apply at Rockford or they aren’t related to someone who is already in the system, to tell you the truth, I mean we have a lot of people – there is a lot of nepotism at Rockford, you know like an assistant Page 16 �superintendent whose son is a principal and whose wife does this and this and then they have family friends that they get in, I mean I’m not even sure how I got in… yeah, I know that I got in because the principal at one of the middle schools had gone to my high school and the principal at the high school was a teacher at my high school: they knew me and they knew me as a sports reporter. And they knew, well she was a decent sports reporter, we will get here in and it looks like a choux. So, I think that’s how I got in, I don’t know. Um I don’t know. I was one of the people hiring, or interviewing people for hiring and it was all white people. So, the only way it will change is if people start applying, and keep applying and keep applying. We had a student teacher last year, one student teacher, and I have had an assistant teacher one time that was a really nice girl. A gal who was black, and we had a student teacher last year; and I thought for sure that we would hire her. She was really great, but we are not hiring anybody. So that makes a difference too. JACK: Do you think that maybe Rockford doesn’t have the diversity in teachers and the staff at the school because the community isn’t diverse? DECKER: Probably, probably not even with school of choice we are getting a few people coming in, but the community is not very diverse either. No, I don’t think there is much diversity at all; do you? So, that’s probably it. It would be nice to see the community become a little bit more diverse; people move in. It’s a really nice small town. <pause> Do you want me to say something controversial? [Laughing] JACK: Do we want to talk about education a little bit too? Well, we discussed in class about the education system and some faults and some positives, but we were wondering maybe some of your views of the standards that you have to live up to as a teacher… and the government standards if they are different and the government influence on the system. Just elaborate. DECKER: First of all, I don’t think that some of the people in the government who are coming up with these standards really have any understanding of what it is like in the classroom. Now they have decided that the principal should evaluate each teacher twice a year. So, we have three principals in our building and we probably have about 130 teachers. So, if you look at that, and they are dividing it up, you know you get thirty, you get forty, you get forty, you get forty-five or whatever. So it means that they are trying to come into the classroom twice a year. And it sounds great, it really sounds like, woah, yeah those teachers should be evaluated twice a year; but they also have all of their other administrative positions too. And like last year I was evaluated and they are supposed to spread in out throughout the year. So, the assistant principal; I said to my husband with nine days to go, “He hasn’t been in yet, I bet he is not going to come in because he is going to be going over to an elementary and becoming a principal.” So I saw him on like a Thursday and I said, “Are you planning on coming in to my classroom at all?” and he said, “Yep, I’ll be in tomorrow. What are you doing?” And I said, “Okay, well we are going to be doing a quiz and we are going to have food because we had this one thing going on,” and then I said, “and I will be talking about Lord of the Flies with my tenth graders.” And he said, “Okay, great. I’ll come in.” So he came in and sat through the quiz, had a doughnut or something like that; and then he never stayed to see me teach. And so then, the next week; we are running out of time. We are basically to exam week. And I saw him again and said, “Are you coming back in?” and He said, “Yep, what are you Page 17 �doing tomorrow?” And I said, “Well I’m giving the test. We just finished The Things They Carried and we just finished Lord of the Flies, so I’m giving tests in those classes.” And um, he said, “Well, what about Monday?” And I said, “Well, we are going to watch the Lord of the Flies and we are going to be watching a movie on the Vietnam War because now we are at exam week. We are not going to teach two days before exams, you know. We are going to do something low key. And he goes, “Okay, well I will come in for the test.” Well, I’m not teaching during the test, I hand out the test and oh she did a great job like that (motions applause). So he evaluates me and I said, “You got this wrong.” I said, “You praised me on an area I’m not that strong at: contacting parents; because once we went an automated system where all the grades are online and the parents can see things, they basically told parents: the principal basically said, “If your kids are doing well in school, you don’t have to come to conferences.” So people quit coming, and now everybody can see everything online. The kids know, they come into class, I put grades in before school and they come into class second hour and say, “I saw my grades online.” So everybody knows everything. I am not great at connecting parents if their kids aren’t doing well. You know, if they’re failing yes, but if they are getting a D I don’t necessarily contact them because they can see it. Why do I? You know, if they are interested they can contact me, and I said “but you messed up in this one because I am very proficient on how I evaluate them in many different ways.” And I said, “So you messed up on that one.” He had the dates wrong and everything because I think he was trying to cover his tail because he was supposed to spread them out and he came in basically like five days apart. And I said that I am going to impend a letter to tell you those things that you do not have on this sheet that qualify me, you know, as a proficient teacher. And so now they are supposed to come in twice a year, one announced and one unannounced, and one of the math teachers said, “You know we are going to have to provide every one of the benchmarks that we’re meeting with the states says we are going to meet.” Rockford is an excellent system, but we don’t all have these benchmarks memorized that we are supposed to. So now, if he tells me that he is coming in on Thursday or if he doesn’t tell me, and he walks into my class and he says, “You’ll have those benchmarks on my desk by the end of the day.”, I can’t do that because I don’t- that is not how I do my lesson plans. I have these huge folders and there are things that I add every year or change every year, but I don’t necessarily qualify them by a bunch of benchmarks; but I know that when kids leave my classroom I am doing a good job because I’ve asked them: “Is there anything? What can I do differently?” I just had an email with a girl who is at Western. I said, “Mary, let me know what I could do differently to make you that much better of a student.” You know, she is a freshman, so I haven’t heard back from her; but I always ask kids, and I asked this one kid and I said, “Did I prepare you for college?” and he said “No, Mrs. Decker.” And I said, “What do you mean?” and he said, “College is so much easier than your class ever was.” So, it’s like why do, I know I am meeting those benchmarks. And there are ninety-two benchmarks where there used to be for English, and when I was at the Rockford Freshman Center, our principal told us we had to meet all ninety-two that year. We’re like, “You’re nuts!” We can’t do that. This one benchmark has like ten different areas of writing that you are supposed to cover. That would be a year’s worth of benchmarks. You know like: character analysis, autobiography and narrative, a research paper, you name it. One benchmark could take the year to cover. And there were ninety-two of them. And now they say, “Well, no. You cover those ninety-two in four years.” Well okay, but what qualifies, because my students are reading The Crucible aloud; so does that qualify as I am teaching them how to speak? Not really; but, they are learning intonation, things like that. So, I think it’s nuts. They just told us that all the M.E.A.P. Page 18 �qualifiers or the M.M.E. qualifiers: how Rockford did last year, how many of our kids were proficient last year; next year or this year when they take it because the standards have been raised this high, only 76% of them would be proficient versus 93% of them. Now if Rockford, which is a fairly consistent, stable society and community; if we can’t meet those benchmarks - how is inner-city Detroit going to meet those benchmarks? And plus, we have computers, and our teachers have computers in our classrooms; most my kids have, you know, cell phones and iPhones and stuff like that. I talked to my friend who is a teacher at Sacred Heart, and they do not even have computers in their classrooms for the teachers. And it is like if we have that and somebody up in Everett, Michigan doesn’t have that; how can they meet those benchmarks if we’re worried about them. Inner-city Grand Rapids-- You know; how can they meet those benchmarks? Yeah, it’s great, but you’re not changing the family structure; so how can you expect the teachers. We’re expected, our special ed. kids are expected to as well as our regular ed. kids on the ACT. Really? I had a girl last year with a seventy-four I.Q. She could read a paragraph and not remember a thing that she read at the end of it; and they are supposed to meet the ACT requirements or else our school is not proficient and if my special ed. students don’t get the same score that you would get on the ACT than I am going to be evaluated differently? You know like, you’re not a very good teacher. She has a seventy-four I.Q.! And I can’t help if people have lazy butts either. I have slums in my classroom that sit there and ask me to entertain them. So, I just think the state: good intentions, we lost our manufacturing so now we are going to be a smart state, gene pool hasn’t changed, you know, let’s be realistic here. So, I just think the government should be taking care of the economy and work on the bad schools and let the good schools continue to do a great job. JACK: Do you think that maybe, with the state having such high standards is, in a way, hurting us? DECKER: Yeah because I don’t think that we can meet those high standards. This is a manufacturing state. And, I think we have, years ago, a lot of people would go through school and kind of get through school and then go to manufacturing positions and things like that, and I think that nation-wide I think the standards are hurting us. We are competing against people; I think like Switzerland has some of the highest standards and they meet those, but they don’t ask their special ed. kids to take those. When you see those polls where the United States is way down here and those other countries are way up here, they usually take just the cream of the crop and give those kids the test. And I think the standards are hurting us. I just think it is making us look dumber and dumber and dumber. And in some ways society is getting dumber. JACK: So you’re saying that at Rockford they make all the special ed. students take the ACT, even the ones with like Down syndrome? DECKER: No we don’t have any, I think we have one student that might be slightly downs; um, other than that they have learning disabilities and some low I.Q.’s. We do have a couple self-contained classrooms. They get-- Somebody will like read it to them or something like that, but it’s still the remembering. If you would have to study a month’s worth of notes before any exam, you know how hard that is. Now we are asking them to read and just cognitively understand something that they might read the sentence and they don’t even understand it. So, I think the government is well meaning, but I don’t think it is necessarily realistic. Page 19 �JACK: One of our big focuses in class lately has been about textbooks and information being altered or changed or showing the positivesDECKER: Oh instead of showing some of the negative things JACK: And I know that you’re an English teacher, and you read a lot of books- do you notice that? DECKER: The books we read are fairly old books. JACK: Sadly, this is where our recording device died. The remaining part of the interview, we discussed how Jackie did not really see that the books her students read in English class were biased, but she did agree to the idea that all textbooks should relay all of the facts, not just a positive portrayal of history. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1e24581e1e75528d1ec66da24b68fab7.mp3 261bc57128a099ad8d34bb05bcad4d11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Decker_Jacqueline Title A name given to the resource Jacqueline Decker audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Decker, Jacqueline Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jack, Emma Description An account of the resource Born March, 3rd 1959 to parents Richard and Eve Holland. Youngest of three children with brothers Gary and Terry. Grew up in Grand Rapids, graduating from Crestwood high school. She then continued her education at Central Michigan University with a major in English and a minor in psychology. Ran cross country and track and field on the varsity teams. Met her husband (now of 30 years), Steven Decker in the dorms on campus in her freshman year, his sophomore year. Was married at age 22 and moved to Fremont, Michigan following her husband. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Age discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2c0af2a1c11063ed344b4255a34963e.pdf 0b82b6a3a6e5bc67320cc4eb5e509b40 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Kadi DeHaan Interviewers: Kelly Petrauskas, Andrew Felice, Fred Helms and Zachary Felice Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/14/2012 Biography and Description Kadi DeHaan was in a car accident when she was in high school. She lost feelings and use of her legs. She has been in rehabilitationand is learning muscle memory. She is in great progress toward her goal of walking again. She discusses her accident and how it has changed her life. Transcript PETRAUSKAS: Could you please give us some basic information about yourself? DEHAAN: Yes. first of all today is March 14th it’s a Wednesday evening at about 7PM. My name is Kadi DeHaan and I’m 23 years old. My birthday is April 22, 1988. I come from a family of four, and I have two older half sisters as well, and one younger sister and I have my parents still. we are in Byron Center Michigan. I was born in Grand Rapids and I grew up in Byron Center my whole life yeah. PETRAUSKAS: Airight, could you tell us a little bit about your childhood? DEHAAN: Yup. When I was a child I remember me and my sister were really close. We were really good friends. we always, my morn always tell us stories “You always had your sister sit there and you’d have her play teacher and have her listen” and I remember we’d always go to my grandpa’s. He had a pool, we went swimming there a lot. We’d have friends over there. in Kindergarten I had a best friend his name was Jeremy. I came home and said “Mom I met a cute boy on the bus today” and she thought that was pretty funny. I didn’t tell her what I learned, I just said I met a cute boy. And, him along with like four other friends lived right behind us. since I was little we went camping every summer, started out at the Yogi Bear camp grounds in Grand Haven and Silver Lake. LAJDZIAK: How old is your sister, is your sister pretty close to your age? DEHAAN: My younger sister is two years younger than me. We hang out a lot, yup. She’s my best friend. My two older half sisters are 35 and 31. They’re both married and have kids, but we still see one of them pretty often. LAJDZIAK: Alright, they still live in Michigan? DEHAAN: Yeah, one lives in Holland and one lives in Hudsonville. Page 1 �LAJDZIAK: How old’s your grandpa’s who you said you used to go swim at? DEHAAN: he passed away about ten years ago. LAJDZIAK: And he used to live...? DEHAAN: He used to live on 64th street which was right across the street from us. LAJDZIAK: Oh airight, so this isn’t your first place? DEHAAN: No, this isn’t my first house. We actually lived next door for 9 years and we’ve lived here for three. LAJDZIAK: Oh, alright. DEHAAN: But otherwise we grew up on 64th street and like Byron Avenue. LAJDZIAK: Airight. DEHAAN: Hrnhmm. LAJDZIAK: Want to go on to more of uh, middle school and..? DEHAAN: Yup, in middle school I pretty much had the same friends. I started playing volleyball which I really enjoyed. I was the setter. And I was just learning as I was starting but it was a lot of fun to me. still went camping in middle school I guess I’ve done that since I was a baby. I remember in middle school and the beginning of high school me and my friend Jill used to go roller skating every week at the Byron hot spot or fun spot or whatever it was called.other than that yeah we went roller skating. Oh, I remember we’d go to the mall like every Friday night too. We’d play at that Kahunaville. They had games there and stuff. LAJDZIAK: In Grand Rapids? DEHAAN: In, at Rivertown yeah, in Grandville, yeah. Actually I did that with my friend Kara. She started to become...her and Jill were my two best friends in Middle school. And then as I went on to highschool I still had the same friends then I started dating Mike Reading. Uh, we dated for about a year about a half, still played volleyball in high school. I went to the school dances. I enjoyed doing that. Really just to hang out with my friends, we’d do normal...hang out at each others houses whatever PETRAUSKAS: So how long have you played volleyball, when did you first start playing volleyball and when, how long and how late did you play volleyball. DEHAAN: I played volleyball from 7th grade until 10th grade. PETRAUSKAS: And was that the only sport you played throughout that period of time? DEHAAN: Yes. That was the only sport that I played. yeah. PETRAUSKAS: Did you play any recreational, like at home, with your friends at the beach? Page 2 �DEHAAN: I played at the beach and with my friends. Rollerblading was my favorite thing to do, I loved to rollerblade. PETRAUSKAS: Would you go certain places for rollerblading, would you go down any certain trails? DEHAAN: We’d go down the Kent trail and then I’d also go in Grand Haven just all over town. PETRAUSKAS: And so tell us about like your freshman and sophomore year in high school. Just kid of basically like you said you went to a bunch of dances and stuff, like how many dances did you guys have each year? DEHAAN: Ok. like each year we had homecoming, sweatheart dance and then prom was junior and senior year. I went to most of them ‘cause I was dating this guy and we had to go together. yeah. LAJDZIAK: You dated him through sophomore year then, 10th grade? DEHAAN: Yes. Actually up to 11th grade. LAJDZIAK: Up to 11th grade...and was he the one you were chasing. DEHAAN: Yes. LAJDZIAK: Airight. PETRAUSKAS: Hahaha. LAJDZIAK: I guess I shouldn’t move into that then haha. I was just wondering. PETRAUSKAS: So, you said you were dating for about three years or so? DEHAAN: We dated for like a year and a half. Like the last six months of the relationship wasn’t great so, like we were gonna break up soon anyways. LAJDZIAK: That was around junior year? DEHAAN: Yeah. LAJDZIAK: Junior year.. PETRAUSKAS: So what kind of music did you listen to back in the day? DEHAAN: Oh, I thought I was ganster back in the day so I listened to rap music, drover my car really fast, windows down. Yes, I thought I was pretty cool. PETRAUSKAS: And what kind of car did you drive? DEHAAN: I had a ‘97 Pontiac Bonneville. My mother gave it to me. PETRAUSKAS: That was very nice of her. DEHAAN: She got a new one. That was her old car. Page 3 �LAJDZIAK: Cool. DEHAAN: Mhmm. FELICE: So when you were driving really fast with the windows down and the music up were you being safe? DEHAAN: I would get on the highway, I was just telling my teacher this the other day, I would get on the highway and I would go like a hundred. So stupid. I think of it now like I was crazy. LAJDZIAK: Yeah.. DEHAAN: Mhmm. PETRAUSKAS: And had you ever been pulled over? DEHAAN: No. PETRAUSKAS: No? DEHAAN: Nope. LAJDZIAK: No tickets? DEHAAN: No tickets. PETRAUSKAS: That’s good for you. LAJDZIAK: Did you get your permit when you were 16...14 and 9 months? DEHAAN: Oh I got it probably the day I could get it, yeah ‘cause when I was..before I could drive I would mow the lawn and I would drive my moms car up and down our little cul de-sac here like, for hours. So I was very excited to get my license. LAJDZIAK: Yeah, kind of living out here, with all the space you could get on different things whether it’s a lawn mower or a four wheeler or.. DEHAAN: Yeah. We had a four wheeler too. (Whispering): So should I say that one day I was hanging out with my boyfriend and we got in an argument and tell that whole story? LAJDZIAK: Yeah, yeah. PETRAUSKAS: Ok, so tell us a little bit more about your junior year. What happened after you sophomore year? DEHAAN: Ok, my junior year I was just having so much fun in high school, I loved it. I hung out with my friends a lot. I wasn’t home much, I was always with my friends. a couple months into the school year on October 8, 2004, I was hanging out with my boyfriend at the time and we had gotten into an argument and he left his house and I followed, I was gonna go home. I was driving behind him, trying to catch up with him, and the road, the roads were not great. It was dark out, it was raining. I was driving, I Page 4 �remember I was driving over. I came over the hill and I saw the red light and thought “oh ,it’ll turn green soon, I can just go and speed around all these people and I can catch up to him. Well I thought wrong and I hydroplaned and went into oncoming traffic where a car hit me and I flew out of the windshield and my car blew up after that, which I didn’t have my seatbelt on which I was lucky for then So the ambulance came, I don’t remember much after this but I guess I was giving them everybody’s phone numbers like my moms, my boyfriends and I was like “you have to call them! Blah blah blah.” And so they brought me to the hospital and they got a hold of my parents...and they, my parents came down and when my parents got there, they wouldn’t tell them what happened to me. They said they had to go in this back room with somebody and my mom, she just knew I was dead. She, she just knew it because they always, they tell what’s wrong with whoever’s at the hospital unless like something really really bad has happened. So when the doctor finally came out and told my parents what happened, I broke my neck and I have a C5-C6 spinal cord injury which means, I couldn’t move my legs, my hands were affected uh, but I still had feeling. But I couldn’t move any thing. (Whispering): So do you want me to just go on, keep going into the care. PETRAUSKAS: So like how long...you had said you passed out blacked out after you came out of the car. was there a certain time you remember regaining, like, thought and knowing where you were? DEHAAN: Yeah, it was a couple days later. The first memory I have of being in the hospital is uh, one of the nurses washing my hair. LAJDZIAK: So you were in the hospital for a couple...? DEHAAN: I was in intensive care for three weeks and at first I couldn’t even breathe on my own. They had like a ventilator down my throat helping me breathe and they didn’t even know if I would get off that. LAJDZIAK: Wow. DEHAAN: Mhmrn. PETRAUSKAS: And have you talked to your parents about that first day and how they felt when they first received that call or anything along those lines? DEHAAN: Yes, I actually just talked about it to my mom yesterday actually and she said she was just numb. She doesn’t remember like the first two weeks, she wouldn’t come home from the hospital and finally when she did for a little bit to sleep she got a call from her friend and her friend was like “are you sitting down? Are you sitting down?” She’s like “what are you talking about?” And she’s like “I heard it on the news, Kadi died.” And my mom’s like “what?! I was just up there, no she didn’t.” And so my mom freaked out, hung up and called my dad and was like “is she ok?! Is she ok?!” And he’s like “Yes she’s fine, the news had it wrong. She’s perfectly fine, I’m sitting here right with her right now.” And my mom’s like “you’re lying to me, just because I’m not there!”and he’s like “no I’m not, she’s really ok.” So just, she doesn’t remember.. she didn’t even remember how to get home. She couldn’t’ even think. LAJDZIAK: How well, like other family like your sister that you’re close tO... Page 5 �DEHAAN: My sister was a mess too and I guess the first time I got to talk to her I said “Ally it’s ok, the doctor said I just might have to be in a wheelchair a little while.” And she just started bawling, but I just... LAJDZIAK: So they came to the hospital too? DEHAAN: Yeah, they were there that night, yeah. And I still had a sense of humor, I was, I told my mom I was like, before I was going in the surgery I was like “mom, will you check my nose for any boogers? Like there might be a cute doctor in there or something,” LAJDZIAK: How about like grandparents, family friends, long time family friends. How did they react? DEHAAN: Everyone was just shocked and my grandparents were up there I remember, well I don’t remember, I remember because I was told. A lot of my friends and people I hardly knew in high school tried coming to visit me, but they wouldn’t allow visitors while I was in intensive care. LAJDZIAK: And then when you got out of intensive care you came back here? Were you in the hospital for a while longer? DEHAAN: I went to Marry Free Bed for three months where, like when I went there I was still on the feeding tube, I kinda slowly got better. Like when I was in intensive care they finally, I like lean myself off the ventilator so I could breathe on my own. Otherwise I would have still been there I think. so they let me go to Marry Free Bed with just a feeding tube where that’s pretty much where I was going to live in my wheelchair. PETRAUSKAS: In intensive care I know you have a little bit of, you kind of found some humor in certain things like what exactly went through you head? What were you thinking when you kind of figured out what happened, and what you were doing now, where you were at? What were you thinking about the future? Anything along those lines. DEHAAN: I don’t think I did think about the future. I think I just thought of the moment and was just going to get through it. I didn’t think bad thoughts, like every time somebody was like “oh no!” I was like “it’ll be ok.” Like I was doing the best out of everybody so.. PETRAUSKAS: So you basically just tried to remain positive and use that to your advantage? DEHAAN: Yeah, exactly. LAJDZIAK: So basically when you came, finally came back home what...how did was, did that feel I guess? I mean obviously it had to be different but maybe you were like in bed like stuck for a while and couldn’t really move at all? DEHAAN: when I was at Marry Free Bed for a while I didn’t want to move because it was scary, like being in a wheelchair and I like couldn’t, like, do anything I thought I was going to fall out like, I had straps all over me and my mom was like “you can’t take those off it’ll look silly” and I was like “no!” Also, I forgot I had a halo for three months as well because I broke my neck and it was screwed into my skull in four Page 6 �places to hold my neck still. So that means I couldn’t take a shower for three months, I had to take a bath in bed everyday. And it was just, not fun. PETRAUSKAS: Were they feeding you through the tubes and everything? DEHAAN: Finally I remember, my dad, he would because I had to eat so many calories a day before they took the feeding tube out, so he would like pretend that I ate because he didn’t want me to be on it anymore but like even they would have me eat like a Kit Kat or something because I wasn’t, I just didn’t have an appetite. I think I lost like twenty pounds and I was, I wasn’t big to begin with so, yeah. Okay then you said after, oh yeah so coming home from the hospital was scary, like, there wasn’t gonna be all that help there was just gonna be my parents and my sister helping me, and I really thought it was, it was really scary but got through it and I just, I knew that I was just gonna just get out of this wheel chair. I wasn’t gonna live like they told me I was gonna, I was gonna do everything I could to walk again. Which I really think helped my positive attitude and helped me going because it just, just did. I remember... LAJDZIAK: Did you come back to, is this the house you were living in? Next door? DEHAAN: No, this is not the house. Yes, next door is where we lived. When I got in my car accident my dad was in the process of building this house, so he pretty much just stopped building because he was gonna have to make changes, so. PETRAUSKAS: Then what changes, and like I know your parents had to deal with the situation kind of as it came, uh and so what renovations and what things can they do to make uh, more suitable for you or for the family? DEHAAN: Mhmm..They had to widen the doors, It’s a pretty open floor plan so they didn’t have to do a ton. And then they also put an elevator in our house and some of our floors were sunken like that. Like the whole living room was supposed to be sunken so they raised that up. But, Other than that they didn’t do... They basically just widening the door ways and the elevator. FELICE: How did your daily activities change during this period? DEHAAN: During this period I couldn’t do anything by myself. Like, make meals, I could hardly eat by myself because my hands were not great at all. like, showering I needed help with that. I needed help getting dressed. Like everything changed. I totally lost my independency and I was so independent before the car accident. So it was, it was totally different but I mean I had so much support that it helped me so much. Like,my mom was there with me all the time, my sister was there all the time, my dad helped me with everything. Most people, they’ll get like a care-giving or something but its nicer with just my family helping me. LAJDZIAK: How about like you said you had a couple best friends, like are they still around? DEHAAN: Yes. Right after my car accident my best friend Jill, she visited me a lot. Like, I was able to go out on outings while I was at Mary Free Bed so she’d come up and we’d goout to dinner. My mom would come with, obviously. But we’d go to dinner, we’d go to the mall or we’d go to a movie or something. Uh, she stuck by me like, so much. We hung out like every single day. my other best friends Page 7 �were Tiffany and Kara and they came and visited a couple times but just, that was about it. I mean we still stayed friends but we weren’t like best friends like we were. Everybody was just kinda like in shock and didn’t really know how to treat me after the accident FELICE: Did you grow closer to your friends and family after the accident? DEHAAN: My family for sure, definitely. After about a year of me and Jill hanging out we kinda just went our separate ways. Like she got a job after the accident. And she went to beauty school and I was in, I was going to Davenport. (whispering) I guess this was still in high school wasn’t it? So through high school we were still really good friends but after that... LAJDZIAK: And then were you able to finish out high school.. (inaudible) DEHAAN: Yeah, I got out of the hospital in about January I think. And then I went back to school in February. Which my sister helped me a ton, like going to classes ‘cause I didn’t have like a wheelchair I could push, they just gave me one like that I was sent home with. So I needed a lot of help after the accident. LAJDZIAK: And your sister was a freshman? DEHAAN: Yeah she was fourteen. PETRAUSKAS: So she was taking care of you most of the time and was there by your side? DEHAAN: Yeah. She had to grow up fast. PETRAUSKAS: And then kind of back to more of your friends again. DEHAAN: Mhmm? PETRAUSKAS: That boyfriend you said to have been chasing that night. How did your relationship end up with him? DEHAAN: He came up to the hospital the night of and kept saying “it’s all my fault it’s all my fault” ‘cause he knew that he saw the car accident and he kept driving. So that’s why he thought it was all his fault. LAJDZIAK: But he didn’t know you were chasing him? Or just... DEHAAN: He knew it was me, he didn’t stop to help. LAJDZIAK: Really? DEHAAN: Yes. So he came up a couple more times. I still wanted to be with him but just, it was so smart that I am not with him any more. So smart. LAJDZIAK: ‘Cause it was kinda already... DEHAAN: It was kinda already going down hill anyways, so.. LAJDZIAK: And then you don’t keep in touch with him at all or anything? Page 8 �DEHAAN: No, no. Nope. LAJDZIAK: And then after...most, majority of people after high school kinda just moved on and... DEHAAN: Yeah, I kinda talked to one friends from high school but that’s about it. Made new friends in college and... LAJDZIAK: And how about them, are they coming over all the time? And do things with them? DEHAAN: Yep. Going over their house, coming over. They got to meet me after the car accident so it was nothing to them of the wheelchair. That was just how they knew me. they’re helpful. They help me in wherever I go. I have one friend John who will carry me anywhere. And then his fiancé Tara is one of my good friends. Stephanie I hang out with a lot. We go downtown, go shopping, watch our nightly shows together LAJDZIAK: Do you feel like your friends in high school treated you differently than your friends in college just because they knew you before the accident, during the accident? DEHAAN: I wouldn’t say so much treating me differently I would say we just grew apart and, yeah, it was bound to happen I think. Whether, if the car accident happened or not. LAJDZIAK: Yeah, once you leave high school you... DEHAAN: Yeah. PETRAUSKAS: And I know you kinda explained uh, that you were over here a lot and you went over there a lot. I know you guys made modifications here to suit your daily life, how difficult was it to go hang out at other places like their homes, that may not be as nearly accessible to your... DEHAAN: Well really when I get asked to a friends house I’m like, well can I get in? But if it was with John I didn’t really worry because he just carried me everywhere, then I just had to worry about if I could fit in the bathroom which is normally I can’t fit in the bathroom anywhere. So I didn’t really worry about it a lot but it was always in the back of my mind. “Is this gonna be ok? Am I gonna be able to get in the house?” so a iot of times I had friends over here but if they have people over there, I go over to their houses and it didn’t matter, he’ll carry me anywhere. So.. PETRAUSKAS: How about when you go out in public, like to stores or restaurants. How, how different is that? DEHAAN: I get stared at a lot. I get rude comments, I get really nice comments. the staring is everywhere I go. Like every time I go out I get starred at. So I’m just used to it now. My sister, she’s with me she will stand up for me. But half the time nobody sees anyone staring at me just ‘cause its be like seven years. But at first it was hard to deal with. Like I’m like “Why is everyone staring at me?” And my mom would always tell me “oh it’s just because you’re so pretty” and I’m like “yeah right mom.” Haha yeah... KADI’S DAD: Can I interject? LAJDZIAK: Yeah. Page 9 �KADI’S DAD: When we go on vacation, planned vacation, we go to Mexico or we go to Jamaica. We do have to take into account that we have to find the handicap accessible place down there so, we do look for things like that. LAJDZIAK: Would you say that in other countries its not as like access...as like...I feel like in the US I feel like most places are kinda required to have that be accessible and then when you go down to Mexico is that very different? KADI’S DAD: Well like I said, we had to look at several different resorts to find the one that was capable of handling her so. PETRAUSKAS: How about transportation like on the flights and stuff. I can only imagine how difficult that is. KADI’S DAD: I carry her on and off the busses down there, stuff like that. DEHAAN: They do have people to assist at airports to carry me on and off, but if my family’s with they’ll just carry me instead. that brings up another thing I’ve been to Russia 10 times for steam cells, that is a whole trip in itself, for not being accessible, where we go I mean its for people who cant walk and are in wheel chairs so the place is accessible. But its just a culture shock and people who are in accidents there and are in wheel chairs there they go to live in an institution because they don’t have houses there its all apartments so they don’t have elevators they just go upstairs so everybody who is in an accident is just taking away from their family and they live in an institution. Where they pretty much just don’t do anything. So yea but I been to Russia for stem cells they are embryonic..not embryonic they are my own stem cells they come from my bone maro.m we kinda check into this like a year after... 2 years after my accident. You want me to keep going on that. LAJDZIAK: Yeah DEHAAN: Two years after my accident it was my first trip there it was in june of 2006 my mom did a ton of research and I actually knew somebody who went there and was getting good results from this.. so I was like well heck yea lets give it a try, and since my injury was incomplete that means there is like a chance for me to recover. So that’s a good spinal cord injury if you could say there is a good one. That’s what it is incomplete. So yea the first time I went there they did a.. I got shots for 4 days which made the stem cells from my bone maro flow into my blood and then they did a blood transfusion to get then stem cells out. And then they put them into like 20 vials so that each time I went back I would get like 2 injections. after the first visit I was able to sweat again which sounds funny because you don’t think that because you have a spinal cord injury you cant sweat but yess, and the sun worshoper that I am it was nice to get back into the sun and not almost pass out. So after the first 3 timess.. LAJDZIAK: So you go back there every...? DEHAAN: I went every 3 months in the beginning, so it was almost like we got home and we went back again. I was also doing therapy here, in the United states. Detriot so almost 2 aand a half hours away from my house, so intense therapy 4 days a week, 3 hours a day. then they finally got one closer to my house in grand rapids. So I was doing that at the same time while getting these injections because if you Page 10 �don’t do therapy and get these injections it doesn’t help you. You have to be doing tharepy while getting them. LAJDZIAK: So I just promotes healing.. DEHAAN: It like.., how do I word this..it reconnects the nerves in the spinal cord so that the connection can go through again. LAJDZIAK: Yeah right. DEHAAN: What happened to my spinal cord it was like brusied not like cevered or anything. So I don’t know. FELICE: So does like the therapy like try to stimulate the nerves and try to get them to work DEHAAN: At therapy yes.. before when I wasn’t able to walk. like do anything with my legs. They would like walk them for me. and I would just do like core strengthening, hand therapy, all sorts of things to try to walk again. LAJDZIAK: So the stem cell what is it called PETRAUSKAS: Stem cells LAJDZIAK: So the stem cell in Russia helped your hands too DEHAAN: Yeah it held everything. LAJDZIAK: Alright DEHAAN: Yea the stem cells after about 3 trips going there. I was at therapy one day and they were walking my legs on the paralla bar like they always did and all of a suddenly I lifted up my right leg. They were like woah, do it again, so I did it again. So like my physical therapist was like try it with the other one. So I lifted up my left like and everybody was like holy crap.. am I aloud to say crap? LAJDZIAK: Yeah DEHAAN: They were just like shocked and it was like not controlled at all. But it was like I was still lifting up my leg. And moving it forward. So the walking definitely came from the stem cells. LAJDZIAK: Quickly DEHAAN: Yeah and obviously I had to go to therapy on top of the stem cells. Or the stem cell wouldn’t know what to do, so I continued that for probably like a year. With being able to lift my legs and little bit but still needing assistance. And then after so long I was able to control my legs on my own. Like I still couldn’t move them when I was sitting in my chair but when I would stand up. I was able to walk LAJDZIAK: Are you still going to Russia for stem cells? DEHAAN: I haven’t been to Russia in 2 years. Page 11 �LAJDZIAK: Instead of going to Russia your just continuing therapy DEHAAN: Yeah I’m continuing to do therapy, probably after the walking was going really good like no assistance just like walking canes. But no body had to stand behind me or anything thing. I got phenomena and it set me back a year which is crazy I never know phenomena could effect my walking but it did. And then after a year of being set back I was able to do it again I had to slowly, re learn pretty much.. my walking again. And then when I got doing really good again I hurt my back and have a herniated disk at L5 Si. I got hurt at therapy. I aslo have really bad spasms, like muscle spasms in my legs like my leg will kick straight and you cant hardly bend it those got worse when the herniated disk happened. Because my reaction to pain is more spasms, if that makes sense. LAJDZIAK: Where you at know like being able to walk... and ? DEHAAN: Ok the herniated disk happened two years ago I couldn’t do anything. For at least a year. Couldn’t even stand my left leg it was just stay straight up in the air. Like it wouldn’t stay down. I couldn’t drive...m last year... im trying to think., my years get so mixed up.. for probably a year now I have been back to being able to walk again. On Monday I walked 2 laps around the track, without stopping which is huge for me. Today I walked 1 and a half laps. Which is.. one lap is 542 feet. When I first started walking I would go 20 feet and have to sit down and then I would go more like a 100 feet and have to sit down. And then like 200 feet. LAJDZIAK: Do you get tired or is it like painful? DEHAAN: Its not painful at all. Tired I get fatigued.. more like my walking gets sloppy and ill sit down and rest and my walking will get better when I stand back up. LAJDZIAK: So you don’t use like anything to help you walk? DEHAAN: I use walking canes and my trainer does stand behind me just incase. LAJDZIAK: And you said you had a fractured disk like a L5 51 DEHAAN: I hurt it at therapy.. I don’t know how that happened.. I think I was walking at therapy and I went to fall and my trainer grabbed me by this belt I have so I was like hanging there by this belt and my back like twisted wrong.. and my parents both have back problems too so it hereditary. LAJDZIAK: But you don’t experience any pain like right now? Kadi right now no.. I did have pain I was like sweating all the time and just deprived me from walking. LAJDZIAK: how did you get phenomena if you don’t mind me asking. DEHAAN: I got sick and my lungs weren’t good I guess. LAJDZIAK: I have had phenomena too so I was just wondering. FELICE: It seems like your life has had a lot of turmoil have you offered you story to other people as like insperiation. Page 12 �DEHAAN: I feel like my story does inspire people even like where I work out these people see me for 6 years and they’ll come up to me and say like heyy your doing really good, and they notice me up there walking and when I’m not up there walking. So they say I do inspire a lot of people. Actually yesterday I went to talk a drivers training class. Talk to them about, driving in conditions either you emotions are different or the weather is effected. PETRAUSKAS: Explain a little bit about how driving ahs changed since the accident. So your able to do the old way what kind of new stuff did you have to learn to drive again. DEHAAN: I had to take drivers training all over again. I started driving like this huge bus van. Like it was ginormous and I took it in Detroit, where I was doing therapy. He said I would probably need like 20 or 30 hours of driving. I did like 10 and he said I was good because I caught onto it real fast. I have to drive with hand controls so I haveone hand on the steering wheel and one hand on my left hand does the gas and break you pull for the gas and push for the break. so that was a learning a whole new way of driving but it didn’t seem abnormal. PETRAUSKAS: And your able to drive by yourself? DEHAAN: Yeah I’m able to drive by myself. I have a van that has a ramp on it so I just hit the button door opens and the ramp comes down. LAJDZIAK: So you go right out the back then DEHAAN: No it’s the side. LAJDZIAK: So the whole driver side? DEHAAN: It’s the passenger side; you like wanna see it don’t you. LAJDZIAK: Yeah I wanna see what it looks like.. ohh the white one DEHAAN: Yea so the door opens and the ramp like its folded up and it flips down. LAJDZIAK: But you can drive right? DEHAAN: Yeah I drive from my chair. LAJDZIAK: Ohh alright so there is like no driver seat. DEHAAN: Yeah no driver seat. FELICE: How does your chair like lock in? DEHAAN: There’s a bolt that it locks in. PETRAUSKAS: And so your still able to cruse down the road with your windows down? DEHAAN: Yes haha but I don’t go as fast LAJDZIAK: How bout the rap music Page 13 �DEHAAN: Noo no rap music country all the way. LAJDZIAK: Thats what we had to listen to on the way over. PETRAUSKAS: Excuse me LAJDZIAK: Do they make a lot of cars like that? DEHAAN: They do make trucks I know. I didn’t want one of those because I hate the snow and you have to like transfer when you get in, and I like to be in and out. I know they make trucks, vans, and some people don’t have anything they just lift themselves in and they have hand controls. LAJDZIAK: Is that like a private company that did it or did Honda do it? DEHAAN: It’s a Toyota so. the Toyota van goes to its called clock conversions. They are on 68th street luckly they’re close., and they modify everything PETRAUSKAS: My question is how financially difficult this has been to get everything to par with where your at in life. DEHAAN: Yea that’s a good question. Since I was in an auto accident my insurance they pay for like everything that I would need which I am so fortunate for like there are so many expenses. They bought my van 70 thousand dollars. Like I would not be driving if I had to pay 70 thousand dollars there’s no way. luckily my parents were able to pay for every trip to Russia, which is also not cheap. So fortunately auto insurance pays for everything I need so that my parents are able to afford things like going to Russia. LAJDZIAK: When you like did the company like clock conversion did they recommend a certain car for you to get? DEHAAN: My first one was a dodge caravan and then the contract that was up and had to get me a new one. PETRAUSKAS: So of course, I think you already touched on it that you enjoy driving. DEHAAN: Yeah PETRAUSKAS: Do you like to drive? DEHAAN: mhmm, yup LAJDZIAK: And then...How about seatbelts? Do you feel like your keen on them or not? DEHAAN: Now I always wear my seat belt. LAJDZIAK: Do you tell other people to put on their seatbelts before you start the car? DEHAAN: Yes, I do. And my passenger seat has the beeper, so it doesn’t stop beeping until you put the seatbelt on so. Page 14 �FELICE: Do you think in the future you want to more stuff like talk to drivers ed classes about driver’s safety and stuff. DEHAAN: Yeah, I totally would. Yeah, I think that would be really good. Maybe that will teach them to slow down, and not think they are so cool, drive fast. PETRAUSKAS: When you driving, just knowing what has happened in the past. Do you ever think of that when you’re driving? Or do you think of anything bad possibly happening again? Or anything like that? DEHAAN: Sometimes I think of something bad happening again. Like if people try to get in my lane. I’m just like woo, what are you doing? It freaks me out. l would say my driving in the rain still does scare me still. l can’t see when its dark out and it’s raining. Everything just like blurs together. so that defiantly still scares me. But otherwise driving on nice days... LAJDZIAK: Do you try to avoid driving on days where... DEHAAN: I wouldn’t say I avoid, I’m just extra cautious. FELICE: Have you driven by the spot of the accident? DEHAAN: Yeah, and actually for a while there was a burn mark for years. They cover it up, finally they repaved a year ago...last summer maybe. Yeah. It didn’t bother me to drive over that spot. PETRAUSKAS: How often do you actually do it? Do you maybe make time out of your day and just go, every once and a while, and visit that spot? DEHAAN: No, I would say I visit that spot. But its right in town, it’s on my way in to Byron Center. So if I’m going into town, I’m going to pass it. Half the time I don’t think twice what happened there. LAJDZIAK: I got questions but he’s distracting me. how about the car? Did they junk the car or? DEHAAN: Yeah yup LAJDZIAK: How did you get hit during the accident? Was it a head on collision or? DEHAAN: I don’t know. I think it was from the back the way the picture looks. But I don’t remember. l think probably from the back which made me go through the windshield, and go forward. The side? FELICE: It looks like the explosion was from the gas tank. LAJDZIAK: What about the other driver of the car that hit you? DEHAAN: The other...it was a couple who are like my parents age, because my mom went to high school with them. They were completely fine. Except for the next day she had stomach pain. So she went to the hospital and they actually found cancer. So it was actually a good thing for them because otherwise she may not have thought anything was wrong. LAJDZIAK: Did they visit you at the hospital or anything? Page 15 �DEHAAN: You know what? I’m not sure if they did. I know they talked to my mom and they felt really bad and she was like it’s not your fault, it’s hers. So...l didn’t get ticketed for it or anything. PETRAUSKAS: have you met these people and have communicated with them since the accident? DEHAAN: No, Nope. I know of who they are because I graduate with their daughter. But I didn’t talk to them after or anything. LAJDZIAK: I would be like asking them, what did I look like? DEHAAN: No. I guess after the car accident, my face was just a mess. LAJDZIAK: Really? DEHAAN: Yeah. It was all bruised. This side of my face was all bruised. And I have a scare here from something. Maybe glass. I don’t know. This is my only other scare on my elbow. So it was almost like I flew out of my car, because I flew 40 feet. LAJDZIAK: And then on to the cement? DEHAAN: Yeah. But it was like I cover my face like this or something. I don’t know. Another weird thing about my car accident was my purse was in the front seat and my back pack was in the back seat, and the both ended up in the hospital room. Nobody knows how they got there. Nobody knows how they got out of the car. Yeah, that was kind of weird. LAJDZIAK: what about any eye witnesses or anything like that? Kind of embellish on what they saw. DEHAAN: I don’t remember eye witnesses of the car accident. I remember like my...l don’t know what he’s called at the high school...just superintendent maybe or something. He came out and he actually grabbed me off the road and pulled me into the grass. but...I know I told my mom this yesterday, you should have took a picture of my face. She’s like, Kadi I couldn’t even think. I was like, well I wanted to see what it looked like. LAJDZIAK: He kind of mentioned it, the news really blew up over this situation DEHAAN: Yeah LAJDZIAK: How did that affect you? DEHAAN: I dint know for a long time that I had died. My parents didn’t tell me. My sister didn’t tell me. One of my friends was like hey, I thought you died. I was like what? My sister was like shhh. So she didn’t want me to know. But...l think the news over reacts about a lot of things, and messes a lot of things up. So I don’t listen to them a lot. LAJDZIAK: Did they like interview you or anything like that? DEHAAN: After words...news 8 was the one the messed up and said I died. So when I started walking, I remember, the paper, the Grand Rapids press did articles about me. The news did one because for my Page 16 �21 5t birthday I walked into the bar. That was with help obviously. But...yeah that was big. So was on the news then. It actually made national news. LAJDZIAK: really? DEHAAN: yeah. Mhmm. LAJDZIAK: they really didn’t, I guess, approach your family or anything like that? DEHAAN: No. like they usually do? No. FELICE: Do you feel like your life has less privacy after the accident because of this? DEHAAN: yeah. Yeah. Especially seeing doctors. My modesty, I don’t have any anymore. LAJDZIAK: So when you see doctors? DEHAAN: Yeah, I did at first. I don’t now. But so that is nice after I could stop seeing doctors. It was like every week, I had to go to the doctor. It was so old. I just wanted to live my life and be normal. LAJDZIAK: how? l can’t think what I was going to say now. PETRAUSKAS: How about...l don’t know if we talked about this yet. your education. You dealt with the accident and you got yourself through high school. Where did you decide to go to college? What did you decide to go into? DEHAAN: I think before the accident I wanted to go to western with all my friends or something. Then after the accident I was like well I need to stay somewhere close to home because I can’t go far away. I can’t move out. So then I decided davenport. I got a full ride scholarship there, all because I wrote a letter. So that was exciting. where was I going with this? What did you ask? PETRAUSKAS: What did you decide to go into when you got to davenport? DEHAAN: Oh ok. I wanted to go into accounting. Then I took accounting 1 and it was a little harder than I thought, but I was still going to go into it. So then I tried to take accounting 2. I took it four times to pass. So I was like, after the second time of not passing, I was like I’m switching my major ASAP. So I went into sports marketing. Got a degree in that. LAJDZIAK: And then, you are now with a realtor. Did you try to look at any jobs when you graduated? DEHAAN: When I graduated I wasn’t really in to looking for a job then, because I was focused on my physical therapy. last fall I was like, ok, I have had my degree for a year; I need to do something with it or I’m never going to get anywhere. So I got an internship with a property management company. That lasted 3 months. I was doing their marketing for them. I made there brochure, I made flyers, all that sort of thing. Then he like said, “Hey, yeah, you’re probably going to get a job here.” So I was excited. He said probably just in a few months is when we will financially be able to give you a job. Well he just hired 4 more interns. So he did it that way, the free way. And I was actually on craigslist one day, just searching. I never still looked hard for a job because I needed who would be flexible with my schedule, to be able Page 17 �to do physical therapy still. So one day I was just looking on craigslist and found this part time job, make good money, doing marketing for a real estate company. So it was kind of similar to what I did for my internship, but still different. So I interviewed, and he gave me the job on the spot. And they too had to make modifications for me. Actually when I got the interview, I drove by the place and there was two big steps to get in. So I was bummed. Because now I’m not going to be able to get in, and I really wanted this job. So that is something too. If I get an interview, I have to be careful, like I have check out the place pretty much before I go. To see if someone needs to come with me or if I’m going to be able to go by myself. So I just called him and was like hey here is my story. I’m in a wheel chair, do you have a back door or anything? Can we meet somewhere different from the office? He’s like yeah, no problem. And most people would probably hang up or just say oh well I found someone else. Or forget it. Yeah. LAJDZIAK: SO you feel like, do people at your internship and your job now do you feel they treat you... DEHAAN: Oh they treat me totally fine. It just depends on the person. LAJDZIAK: Oh really. DEHAAN: Yeah, here is another story. I am looking for a new trainer to come to my house to work out. And I put an ad on craigslist. They will write me for it. I will write them my background and tell them my story, and hey, this is what I’m looking to do. And they won’t write back. So... PETRAUSKAS: How about like once you’re graduated and you were actually looking for a marketing job, did you get interview for multiple companies or anything like that? Have you ever been judged differently in an interview or anything along those lines? DEHAAN: Actually the two interviews I had, work out great. So I guess when I got judged was before an interview when they would email me back and I would tell them my situation. So I learned to just not tell people my situation before I go into an interview. And then it was totally fine. LAJDZIAK: Why do you think they would, where not replying? DEHAAN: People just don’t know how to approach somebody who’s different then you I’d guess I’d say. FELICE: When you’re out in public do you think people have prejudice against you? Judging you before they even get to know you. DEHAAN: Yes. Oh I totally...yeah. I totally get that a lot. A lot of people just don’t get to know me because they see the wheelchair. People don’t know how to act, and most of the time it comes off as rudeness to me. FELICE: What do you think they are thinking about you? DEHAAN: Well I just think that they, maybe, I don’t know what they think about me. I just... LAJDZIAK: Do you think majority of people like you said you have heard comments and people star, other than the staring and stuff like that, do you think the majority of people are just not use to the situation? Page 18 �DEHAAN: Yeah, I think so. I just think they are not use to it. And some people are, I don’t know, they like the way their friends look. They like convenience. Friends who aren’t in a wheelchair can get up and go wherever, whenever they want. I mean I can too but it takes me a little longer. And I have to think of things before I do them so... LAJDZIAK: In your job now, they don’t...medical expenses...I guess that doesn’t have anything to do with a job. DEHAAN: No. PETRAUSKAS: Or any type of benefits or anything along those lines? DEHAAN: Like what do you mean? PETRAUSKAS: Does your job offer any type of benefits? DEHAAN: No, because it is part time. So then I’m still covered under my...l will always be under my auto insurance and they will always have to pay until I am completely better. Yeah. LAJDZIAK: I have to have insurance. DEHAAN: it’s sad because if someone dives into a pooi, they don’t have auto insurance and nothing is paid for. PETRAUSKAS: So luckily this happened in a vehicle. DEHAAN: Yeah PETRAUSKAS: in that case, you were covered. DEHAAN: Yeah. Even those people in swimming accidents, go get in the car after you were in that accident because everything will be paid for. Like hospital bills, everything. My bill for intensive care was 300,000 dollars. LAJDZIAK: What’s your insurance? Do you know what auto insurance you have? DEHAAN: Grange PETRAUSKAS: Now that we are getting personal, how has this affected your personal life? DEHAAN: I guess I don’t let it. PETRAUSKAS: I know you said you friends and stuff, you kind of went your separate ways after a certain time periods or when you got to the college level, how has it affected you dealing with people every day, maybe finding, you talked about cute doctors and stuff, so how has it affected your dating life or just meeting the other sex basically? DEHAAN: It really just depends on the person like right after my car accident I met this guy; he saw a picture of me on my friend’s refrigerator. He was like she is really cute I want to date her, and they knew Page 19 �what just happened to me. They were like, we better tell him before they meet or whatever. So they told him and he was like I don’t care. We dated for like two years, it was great. some people we will date for a little bit and be like this is a little difficult, I’m not use to this. Like if they have to carry me somewhere or something. It just out of there way or something to do it. I just depends on the person. But dating for me hasn’t been more difficult. I hear people say it is, I try not to let it affect me. Go about living my life. PETRAUSKAS: So basically tell us basically where you are at now? I know your days are complex with working a new job, going through all you rehabilitation and stuff like that. How is your day structured? How do you find time for hobbies and friends? DEHAAN: My weeks are pretty much the same. Monday is the same. Tuesday is pretty much the same. Mondays I get a massage in the morning, have therapy in the afternoon. Tuesday I will be working all day. Wednesday I go to therapy, then from therapy to work until 5. Thursday is the same as that. Finally I will have my Fridays off again so... PETRAUSKAS: And with therapy, how much do you go to therapy per week or per month? DEHAAN: Yeah, I go to therapy, right now I’m going 3 days a week for 3 hours a day. It also takes a half hour to get there and back. So if I go in the afternoon it takes up my whole day pretty much. And when I am at home, I spend my nights relaxing, hanging out withfriends, or doing those type of things. In my free time and on my weekends I spend a lot of my free time doing therapy. I have a standing chair I’m constantly in because I don’t like sitting in this chair all the time, so I will stand at the counter there and sit on my lap top or watch tv or whatever. I have a bike downstairs that I ride every now and then. A lot of my time is doing therapy and relaxing and hanging out with my friends. FELICE: What are you looking to do with your future? DEHAAN: That’s a dumb question, I don’t know. My future...l’d like to travel all over, get married someday, and have kids. LAJDZIAK: So you enjoy going to Russia and like... DEHAAN: Yeah, I enjoy going there sometimes. LAJDZIAK: Did you feel that Russia was way different then here? DEHAAN: The first trip there I screamed bloody murder to come home. I was not going to stay there. No way. No way. Nobody spoke English, I was sick because they gave me a spinal tap, I couldn’t get out of bed for four days, I was so sick. I just wanted to come home. It was just crazy. LAJDZIAK: Was the food different there? DEHAAN: It was disgusting. And they yell at you if you don’t eat it so we would flushed it down the toilet. Page 20 �LAJDZIAK: I had class with him. We were talking about different free states and stuff. They were saying that Russia like not free also. Did you notice that among the people? DEHAAN: People are like strait faced, they do not smile. You could tell we were American because we smiled. They don’t like Americans. There was a McDonalds there, if was so nice for us because we would go there like every other day, because that was good to us and there food was so gross. We would pack a full suitcase full of food to eat because we didn’t eat any of theirs. LAJDZIAK: How about the people at the... DEHAAN: The clinic where we were so nice. Like you have to get to know them. After a couple times of me going there, the nurse would run up to me and give me a kiss on the cheek. They were excited to see you again. They really are caring people. LAJDZIAK: Does people from all over go there too? DEHAAN: Yeah. A lot of Greeks go there because their government pays for them to go there actually. PETRAUSKAS: So I know you were talking about what you enjoy eating. How has your diet changed and what kind of stuff do you have to do to regulate your diet? DEHAAN: If I were to gain a lot of weight, this would be a lot harder. Transferring and stuff, I probably wouldn’t be able to do it. lucky enough I can eat almost anything I want and not gain weight. Now, I don’t eat fast food or anything, I try to stay healthy. PETRAUSKAS: What kind of health foods do you eat? DEHAAN: Chicken. PETRAUSKAS: Would chicken be your favorite? DEHAAN: Probably one of my favorites yeah. I eat chicken every day, Pasta. Good protein foods. FELICE: Do you cook? DEHAAN: No. I microwave cook, that’s about it. PETRAUSKAS: So you’re an awesome cook then? DEHAAN: Yes. My mom is an awesome cook. Luckily I still live at home. LAJDZIAK: I miss home I’ll tell you that. Home cooked meals are nice. PETRAUSKAS: So I guess to try to wrap this up, maybe words of kind of wisdom or just basically kind of wrap it up give a sentence, a little blurb, what things you would like maybe changed to make things easier in your life, like stuff that is more handicap accessible or advice for someone in your situations to help better themselves and to take them to the next level to keep them... Page 21 �LAJDZIAK: Well inform people how you would like to be treated or how to approach you and things like that. DEHAAN: ok. That’s a lot, I’ll try to remember everything you said. thing that I would like changed is when going places, if they had a button to push and the door would open. Me and doors are not friends. I cannot open them half the time. So that is not fun. That’s my biggest thing. I’m always nervous to go places by myself like a restaurant or something. If I meeting someone, I will usually wait for them to get the door for me because I can’t get doors. So that would be wonderful if places had a button to push to make the door open everywhere. The way I want to be treated is just like everyone else. Don’t look at the wheelchair, like obviously you’re going to see the wheel chair, try to go past it. Get to know me for me, because I am still a normal person. I like to have fun and I’m outgoing. Yeah. My advice would be, try to stay positive. That is what has got me through everything. I never went through depression like most people do with a tragic injury or something. And what remind me to keep going every day is just somebody has it worse than me. I got to therapy with people who can’t move their arms and can only move their neck. One guy can’t even talk because his injury is so bad. People have it worse then you. For sure. PETRAUSKAS: Airight. We would like to thank you for giving us the chance to interview you. DEHAAN: You’re welcome. PETRAUSKAS: it was a pleasure for sure. LAJDZIAK: It was really nice meeting you. DEHAAN: Yeah, thanks. LAJDZIAK: I’m interested in that car. DEHAAN: We can go look at it if you want. END OF INTERVIEW Page 22 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a50ff8394af844c4ef4d83ff361c096.mp3 89ec3be9c33451f0047aa8260bc12152 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_DeHaan_Kadi Title A name given to the resource Kadi DeHaan audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource DeHaan, Kadi Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Petrauskas, Kelly Lajdziak, Andrew Helms, Fred Felice, Zachary Description An account of the resource Kadi DeHaan was in a car accident when she was in high school. She lost feelings and use of her legs. She has been in rehabilitationand is learning muscle memory. She is in great progress toward her goal of walking again. She discusses her accident and how it has changed her life. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5984733f3120b2a2d9bdf4c903a27c2a.pdf e72f147ff49acc8f3873f4c811d226c6 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Filiz Dogru Interviewers: Allison Kelleher, Ray Ramirez, Lukas Johnsen, and Jaci Cangealose Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/21/2012 Biography and Description Filiz Dogru was born in Turkey, came to the United States in 1990, and settled in West Michigan in August 2003. He is a professor at Grand Valley State University and an active member of the Niagara foundation and the Turkish American Michigan society. He discusses how he never felt different until moving to West Michigan, although the Grand Rapids area is improving on diversity. Transcript KELLEHER: So remember when I told you we were going to, the interview was going to be archived? DOGRU: Oh Boy, you are scaring me now. KELLEHER: I told you that for previous or for future research, if you want you, it can be used later on, or just for this project, it’s completely up to you. There is two of them you have to fill out, one of them is a copy for our teacher and one is a copy for Grand Valley’s records. DOGRU: Ok about this who will write, is it here in Michigan you are interested? Or in general in the world? CANCEALOSE: Let’s do both. KELLEHER: It’s for studies in west Michigan but it’s incorporating all different aspects. Yeah. DOGRU: Ok, Ahh. My previous interviews are not that serious, trust me. CANCEALOSE: Well we are required to do this. KELLEHER: Can I have your copy of the page… DOGRU: Ok final transcript like before you are presenting or before giving anybody, are you going to give it to me to read it? Because if there is any misunderstanding, I may say, oh, I didn’t mean this, is it? CANCEALOSE: I don’t think she went over that in class. KELLEHER: I don’t think she did either. Page 1 �CANCEALOSE: So we can ask her about it today. KELLEHER: We are presenting on Monday or Wednesday. DOGRU: Oh this coming Monday or Wednesday? CANCEALOSE: Yeah. DOGRU: Oh, so when I have time to see it? KELLEHER: We are gonna work on it this weekend, and we can give you…. DOGRU: This weekend I am not here (laughs). KELLEHER: Well we have… DOGRU: I am out of town. KELLEHER: We will do our best to get it done by like, when are you leaving? DOGRU: Saturday Morning. KELLEHER: Could we get it to you Friday if we work really hard and try to get this transcript done? It’s gonna be a lot but… DOGRU: If I can have it like Friday five o’clock or so. I can hopefully, I will check my e-mail, and get back to you by mid night or so, is that ok? KELLEHER: We will do our best to get it done by then. DOGRU: Ok, hopefully the questions are easier than this one. KELLEHER: Sorry. DOGRU: What do you want me to do? KELLEHER: You have to read it and give your initials. CANCEALOSE: Grand Valley makes us do this. KELLEHER: Both of these have to be done. DOGRU: Oh, this is my name right? KELLEHER: Yup. DOGRU: I wish you brought these. KELLEHER: Yeah I didn’t have them. DOGRU: Is that it? This one too? Page 2 �CANCEALOSE: Yup. KELLEHER: You can do it at the end if you want, since there is two of them and you had already done one of them. DOGRU: Ok. KELLEHER: If that’s what you like. DOGRU: I wish to do one of them. DOGRU: And today is 21st? KELLEHER: Yeah I didn’t have these with me yesterday. DOGRU: Oh, which one is me? KELLEHER: The printed name and then the signature. DOGRU: Yeah but both require my signature? KELLEHER: Is this supposed to be mine? CANCEALOSE: No you are the interviewer, you ask the questions. KELLEHER: We can get some white out. DOGRU: This is me? DOGRU: Alright guys let me see. KELLEHER: Sorry about that. DOGRU: You look so serious. KELLEHER: Sorry. DOGRU: It says could you please give me some information about yourself. DOGRU: Are you recording already? CANCEALOSE: Yes. DOGRU: You are serious? KELLEHER: We have to go back and listen to it. We just have to give it to her so she knows that we actually conducted the interview. DOGRU: Ok. KELLEHER: She is cool, she will let us. Page 3 �DOGRU: Full name is Filiz Dogru; do you want me to spell it? CANCEALOSE: Sure. DOGRU: D-o-g-r-u, I have one soft g in the Turkish alphabet, as opposed to the g in the English alphabet, that’s why it’s not Dog-ru but Dogru. And place of birth, is in Turkey, if I can have a paper? KELLEHER: Sure. DOGRU: In fact Turkey is called Turk-ey-ya, somehow in English they call it Turkey. And date is, oh that is a bad date, February 9, 1962. Ok I’m pretty old huh? Alright parents and siblings, parents are all passed away, siblings I have only one brother, ancestors, what would you want me to say on that? My grandparents, great grandparents, they are all passed away. KELLEHER: Where were they from? DOGRU: My mother’s side was the Balkan Turks, and my father’s side is from Anatolia, it is just regular Turkey, it is a long time they have been there. Life partner, I don’t have any. No marriage, nothing. No children. Education, I have three master’s degrees and one PHD. Religion is Islam. Community involvement, oh I am very actively involved in dialogue organizations, do you need particular names for that? Or just in general? KELLEHER: Yes please. DOGRU: I am an active member of the Niagara foundation, and I am an active member of Turkish American Michigan society. KELLEHER: Can you say that again? DOGRU: Turkish American Michigan Society. DOGRU: And professions, I am a mathematician, a university professor, political party, NOTHING. I hate politics; I don’t want to follow politics. This is my personal opinion anyway. DOGRU: When did you come to Western Michigan? August 2003, but I came to United States in 1990. DOGRU: How would you describe your own identity? I am a Muslim, Turkish American. DOGRU: Was there a particular moment in your adulthood or growing up when you were treated different because of your faith? Oh yea (laugh). Well first of all, growing up I was in Turkey, I came to the United States when I was 25 or 26 years old, and I didn’t felt anything until I came to western Michigan, it’s really funny isn’t it? Immediately after I come to western Michigan, I realize that I am different, not from the community, but I don’t know if that is related to my faith, or my dress code, or my accent maybe, or they realize my accent is from another country. I can’t pin point on that, but I definitely realized that I’m different. KELLEHER: What was it like in school? You said that you had three master’s degrees. Where did you get them from? Page 4 �DOGRU: I received a master’s degree at Brown University Providence, Rhode Island. It’s very diverse, and I didn’t feel anything was different because everyone was from somewhere. And then my second master is in Virginia Tech. That is also a huge research school too, so that is also very, very diverse. I didn’t feel anything, and also another thing is I didn’t live in the regular city. I also lived in the campus, at least you don’t feel you are different at the time, you just feel you are a student. It is all students there from different cultures and different ethics and things, and same thing; I got the third master degree from the University of Toledo. That is also very diverse school, I didn’t feel much. I earned my PhD at Penn State, in Pennsylvania. That is also a huge research school. Those schools, they are recruiting students from all over the world, you don’t feel some people are different and some are not, we are all, we do not feel anything. But immediately after I came to western Michigan, I wasn’t a student anymore; I wasn’t living in the campus. I had to find a regular apartment, I had to live in the community, and it’s a different approach with the community, you know? In that case yes, I felt it very much, in the mall, people are talking to you and it’s totally different than they were talking two seconds ago to someone else. And the cashier’s behavior, especially when I came here to the bank, I didn’t understand bank, cashier would be saying something about something and I would sorry I did not understand this and she would start raising her voice as if I don’t hear it. I told her ‘I am not deaf, please come down and tell me the term, what does that mean?’ And then they didn’t know how to deal with someone who looked a little different than them. That’s what I thought. KELLEHER: When you came from Turkey did you go immediately to college and live on the campus there or did you live in the community? DOGRU: No. The whole my life, I lived in always the college towns, always I was in the big schools, and always I was surrounded by those people. For example, at Virginia Tech, that is a small town, but the town is completely university. Penn State is like that too, the whole town is the university, you don’t see other people, everyone is faculty or for the university, or student, so even though it is a small town, you don’t feel it. Providence is a big city, but I lived since I was new at the time in the campus, I didn’t go around it that much, so I didn’t feel anything. And let’s see where else, here Grand Rapids was totally different because Grand Valley University, this university is separate from the city. It’s not the city is the university, so in that case you are some people know when I say I am working for Grand Valley they say ‘oh that’s great, my cousin’s daughter is going there.’ I mean it’s nothing close relation with the school. KELLEHER: So what made you choose Grand Valley? DOGRU: Job. So after I graduated I earned my PhD and I applied several places and got three jobs offer, I don’t know if you are family or how those work because every January we have mathematicians applying for jobs, we have a big meeting and in those meeting you can choose what jobs are good for you. Then you can apply. After you apply you and they like you, then they call for the interview. If they like you in the interview, then you get offered the job. I got offered several of them, I got three offers, and Grand Valley was the best of those three, so that’s why I came here. KELLEHER: You said that Grand Rapids was totally different because it was separate from the university. Can you talk about what your experience was like when you first came to Grand Valley and to the Grand Rapids area? Page 5 �DOGRU: Grand Valley was ok. I mean everyone somehow, someway went to graduate school. They know those kinds of environments; they came from outside the area to find a job, but outside the university is not very familiar. And still there are some, but it’s so different ten years ago and now, you can feel it, even Grand Valley did not have this much diversity. Now they are doing very good job to collect those students and faculty members. At that time, it was obvious, when you go into a meeting, or you go into some kind of gathering with the community, you are suddenly left alone there, you can see people looking at you a little differently, kind people, I’m not saying they are unkind, or bad. You can feel it, and that’s a very bad feeling, I had never felt that before. But it’s changing, I can definitely say that. There is a huge difference between ten years ago and now. KELLEHER: Did you ever feel different around your students or people that took your classes, things like that, how did your students react? DOGRU: Good question, very good question. I am a mathematician, I teach calculus, I teach geometry, whatever you can think of. In those classes, especially calculus’s, it’s not easy for the students, especially because some of the freshman are taking calculus. In the beginning, everything is interesting for them, I am interesting, different type of teacher, and especially the beginning because right this moment I think students taught students. They give the information about yourself, nobody knew me before, I was just there. They were staring at me, that fine, that’s okay, new teacher, they problem started, whenever they start getting bad grades. Good students usually don’t talk, if they like something in your class they don’t go around and say ‘oh it’s wonderful, it’s beautiful,’ but if one bad student in there doesn’t understand what you are saying, he immediately blames you have an accent, you are not talking English, this is coming up. In the first several years, the first three or four years, it was coming up. It came up very much. I was like ‘oh god, I have been here twenty years talking with these kids and they don’t understand.’ I have ninety students, five of them don’t understand, and those five student’s voices are out, but anyway, those kinds of things happen. I even remember once, one student went very well the whole semester, and suddenly he flunked the final. Everything was fine at the time, oh he was friendly coming in and out, and of course when you flunk in the final, your grade is automatically going down. It won’t fail it, but if it is A it becomes B, and B becomes C, and goes on. And after final he came and he said ‘you know I flunked because you know you are, you are…’ and I said ‘what? You know, what happened?’ He said ‘well you are not speaking well.’ I just looked at him, oh lady I am sorry. Whole semester, first exam, second exam, his quizzes, his homework, everything is done, but final is horrible and I’m not speaking very well? Ok that’s fine but I didn’t speak Turkish (laugh). You should have just told me, but anyways, those kinds of things happen. I am usually a very patient person, that is my personality. You remember several students from the beginning that they will blame immediately my English if they do not understand mathematics. I call them, come over, let’s look at it. One student I remember couldn’t do it, just couldn’t do it, he got mad and he slammed the door went. I just said okay, you learn more. KELLEHER: About how often does that happen? You have encounters with… DOGRU: No, I’m talking these things in about the first three years KELLEHER: The first three years. Page 6 �DOGRU: Yeah, the first three years. After that, as I said, the students are teaching, I mean talking to each other, and one generation to another generation. I think somehow, someway, before coming to my class, they have some information about me. KELLEHER: Okay. DOGRU: So that helps. KELLEHER: Yeah. DOGRU: So I’m talking about the first three years it was really bad. But went okay (laugh). KELLEHER: Did you ever encounter anything with other faculty? Not just other students, but with faculty? Any situations that were not quite right, where you, treated a certain way? By faculty, not just students. DOGRU: Mhmm. it is very unfortunate, but yes. I witness couple of things that even today I remember very well and it hurts. But the thing is, the good part is, forget about the negative. Good part is those people that hurt me in first couple of years, they already realize what they have done and they already apologized. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: So that is helpful. I mean, everybody can make mistakes. I can make mistakes too. But the good part is if you realize that mistake and you don’t repeat it, and at the same time, eh, make the other person think that you already know it. I did that mistake, but I regret it, and maybe not in clear words but actions helps a lot. So yes, it happened. KELLEHER: Would you mind telling us what happened? You don’t have to if you don’t want to. DOGRU: Right now the person who told this I really like and we’ve become very good friend, but without giving a name, that person, I don’t even say “he/she”, that person was kind of advising a new faculty members and we were two at that time and that person was advising the other new one and I was behind that person and I heard how advising, that person advising that new faculty member and then I approached and I let them know I was there and then same person turned back and said “oh, you know what, I’m advising that person, so let me give you similar advise to that, to you also, and then in her advice, telling me that standards was so high. Like, I don’t want to give into details, and it was so obvious. That person didn’t realize that I already heard what was telling to the other one, and then, for example if advice to that person is ‘do two of those, that’s enough,’ and then same thing, exactly the same thing and turn back to me and saying ‘do four of those, even four won’t be enough.’ That hit me very well but I didn’t do anything at that time. I like that person right now, and we are good friends. (Laughs). KELLEHER: That’s good. DOGRU: That’s good? Keep going? Page 7 �KELLEHER: Yes. DOGRU: Where are we? KELLEHER: We jumped around a bit. DOGRU: Oh we did? Okay, So are you going to ask? Or do you want me to go one by one? KELLEHER: We’re kind of skipping around. DOGRU: Oh okay then I’ll listen to you. KELLEHER: We got a little off track. I liked it. (Laughs from both) DOGRU: Well we can turn back if you want. I have time. KELLEHER: How did you… going back to your encounters in the classroom with other faculty… How did you deal with those kind of things in situations?” DOGRU: Okay, that’s a good question. Many, many times I sit down and think about it by myself. I was planning to be here for a long time. First of all, as a person I’m not a quitter. I don’t. ‘It is too hard, I quit! And go.’ No. I’m not that kind of person. At the same time, I don’t like the people step on me. I really don’t like it. And as I said just a second ago, about student, I’m a very, very patient person. First of all, I like talking. But the thing is I don’t do it immediately because when you confront people immediately, they usually get defensive and they don’t hear you, but they just try to defend themselves. So in that case, the first reaction from me is being quiet, and back off. And the, in the right moment, but I cannot forget, that’s the, that’s the thing. In the right moment, at the right time, I can bring it back and talk. Maybe some that person doesn’t except at that moment too, but at least I will let them know that I know these things. I’m aware of it. Because let me tell you one thing, , cultures are so different. I grew up in a Turkish culture, which you have to be very modest, very calm, and very… how can I say? Put the others first. But, honestly, I will say this - this culture, , translated here has a stupidity. If you put others before yourself, and if you act modestly, like for example in some of your success, here I can see people are really proud and say it. But, I grew up in a culture if you do big good things you don’t say it. Let other people say those things. So if you don’t say those things, people translate that one as if you don’t have a self-confidence, you don’t have , how can I say these things? Mean you are not sure about yourself. So they translate that way. It took some time for me to understand that. Because to be hble, to be modest, is my way of living. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: At the same time, you are humble and modest and suddenly people are thinking ‘Ha! You’re stupid. You don’t even say it! You don’t even proud of it!’ So this was a difficult thing for me. So I am trying to balance right now. I cannot just go around and say ‘Hey look I did this, I did that!’ I cannot do that because I couldn’t, I uh I wasn’t taught that way. I wasn’t grew up that way. But at the same time, right now I realize if you don’t say it, people are not taking it very well. So I’m trying to balance it a little Page 8 �bit. So this is the difficult thing. Oh, another thing. Forgiveness also really translates here stupidity. Yeah. If you are good, well for me it’s if you are good you forgive people if they make some mistakes. Maybe they can, maybe you can give a second chance. So in that case they really translate ‘Oh, she’s stupid and she doesn’t realize that.’ But it’s not. It’s totally different. , but I do I regret for that? No. Will I change it completely? No. Because there is a saying also in English the saying that ‘Killing with kindness.’ I think it works. I think it really, really works. If you go and start fighting, if you go and start confronting, people will make the problem bigger and bigger. Instead, just let the cool down a little bit in the environment and talk to people later on may effect more. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: My opinion, as I said. KELLEHER: Mhmm. That’s fine. , you mentioned that you noticed uh differences in the like reactions and and modesty and in forgiveness and in that kind of things. What was one of the first things that you noticed when you came from Turkey? DOGRU: Mhmm. KELLEHER: Like here, when you were first at school doing your master’s. What was one of the first things that you noticed culturally was a big difference for you that you had to come to terms with? DOGRU: For me, it’s diversity. I mean, not the feelings, but in Turkey, okay, when I came here first … let me put it together. In Turkey, we have different type of; we had to write nouns, I had been here more in fact. Uh we had over there so many different types of people because of the big Ottoman Empire. Its uh, we have European type, we have Asian type, we have Russian type, we have Russian type, we have Arabic type. I mean we have so many different features, different uh color hair color, eye color, and different types of people. And I never ever felt that. I mean, we didn’t know there was any difference until I came United States. And when I came to United States, I don’t know whether I should say this or not, but suddenly, still they were talking about ‘colored’ people. When I heard this term first I was shocked! Truly shocked! What does that mean? People is people. What does the ‘colored’ mean?! The first time I realized that there are still some differences do we have in Turkey? Oh yea. Right now we have tons of different people! But we never thought about it. We never think about it. And then later on after I came here they started some Turkish-Kurdish stuff in Turkey. I said ‘Uh, that’s not what I know!’ (Laughs) DOGRU: Because we live together, we don’t even know who is who. We just all same country people. Who cares where they from? That is the first thing shocked me here. I said, they immediately, they are still thinking about the, uh those days, and they are still thinking about the unfairness between it, and then I didn’t recognize it in the campus too much even though I heard it. But, when I came to Western Michigan, I felt it a little bit. They still have that kind of mindset. But as I said, in time, it’s going much better. Right now I can feel the difference. I hope that was the answer of… what was the question? I don’t know (laugh). Page 9 �KELLEHER: No, that was, that was perfect. Was there, you said you didn’t notice uh in Turkey everyone lives together and there a difference. You don’t notice a difference at all. DOGRU: Exactly. KELLEHER: Is there no… I just don’t understand because here, we treat people differently and it’s so unfortunate. , are no one’s treated differently there because of your ethnicity or your race… DOGRU: “No one. Because you didn’t know who was who.” KELLEHER: “Okay.” DOGRU: “Just just people. Your neighbor, your worker, your things. We never interested in where they come from. We never. I mean, we were interested in how good person is. How hard worker is. How, let’s see… how they are behaving to their neighbors and stuff. These are the more important thing for us. We never ever… well maybe I was young, so maybe that’s what. But even here, I mean young people know about those things. Sometimes even makes me think. If you guys don’t have, or if we don’t have here, just those celebrations like ‘Oh we have to celebrate that, we have to celebrate this,’ so even those emphasize. Or, so how can I say it? In school for example, uh, teachers sometimes give a talk. Saying that ‘Oh you have to behave same with this person, that person.’ I think that gives the students mind ‘Oh, we are not doing it? Or maybe it’s not supposed to be done that way that teacher is warning me?’ So this, I don’t know, I might be wrong as I, my observations is this one. We never thought about that person you have to behave good and that person you have to behave good. You have to behave everyone good! You don’t have to emphasize it so you are behaving good to that one so you have to behave good to this one too. No! Everything is same! You have to behave good to all. (Laugh) That’s it! KELLEHER: You’re not highlighting differences. DOGRU: Right, right, right! KELLEHER: Okay. DOGRU: This is a right word. Highlighting. They are highlighting here sometimes. KELLEHER: Mhmm, like with… DOGRU: Even, let me interrupt you, and this is a really interesting thing. I was hired here and many, many faculty members whose foreign origin comes from other country, they grew up here or they went to school here, maybe eh late ages and stuff. When they hired here, they didn’t ask ‘International Faculty,’ or more worse, ‘Foreign faculty.’ They never give any advertisement like that. I never applied for this ‘Foreign faculty’ advertisement. They look for ‘Faculty Members.’ But after I came here, I realize I’m already classified, separated, as ‘Foreign faculty members’ and this really bothers me and still bothers me. I still keep talking but nobody listens to me. (Laughs). I mean, yes, we may born in a different country but nobody hired me here, or offered me job anywhere saying ‘We are hiring you because you are a foreign faculty.’ Then I understand that. That means there’s a different class that they are hiring for that class. No! They didn’t give me anything separate. They are just saying ‘This is the job Page 10 �advertisement, this is the qualification’ and I applied for that. And then suddenly after I came to Grand Valley, not just me, they always call either ‘International Faculty,’ or worse, worse, worse is ‘Foreign faculty.’ Why am I foreign faculty?! I, I, I fight, I say it? Applied under the same conditions with everybody. There is no ‘foreign’ or ‘non-foreign.’ KELLEHER: Similar qualifications… DOGRU: Exactly! Qualifications is there, background is there, everything was there. They give me the same interview, uh… KELLEHER: Process. DOGRU: Yes, process, exactly. And then, they hired me! And why am I suddenly faculty member which is foreign?! That’s, that’s not good. (Laugh) KELLEHER: I just thought of… [Unclear] DOGRU: I think this helps you. KELLEHER: Oh, it does. This is great. We live, this building is two buildings down from the international housing. DOGRU: Uh-huh… KELLEHER: On campus, the Murray building, right next to Van Steeland is international housing so I just thought of that. DOGRU: So international students go there? KELLEHER: They have the option to apply to be, err, apply to live in international housing, and I just thought of… DOGRU: Why not just student housing? KELLEHER: Exactly. DOGRU: International? They already put you in a different chair. Done. And then they are saying ‘You are good to me; you should be good to that one too.’ That’s no. I’m sorry. (Laughs) KELLEHER: No, please keep going if… DOGRU: That’s, that’s it. CANCEALOSE: I have a question. You’re, you were born in Turkey. Do you have your U.S. citizenship? DOGRU: Yes I do. CANCEALOSE: When did you get that? Page 11 �DOGRU: it was a choice. It’s recently in fact because I worked more than nine years. After four, okay, let me tell you this process. After you become green card permanent resident after four years, you will be able to apply and have your citizenship. I waited like almost eight years. I didn’t apply immediately. So after eight years, I applied so I got that. CANCEALOSE: Was it a hard process? DOGRU: Not hard but long. CANCEALOSE: Yeah. DOGRU: Long, long process. Let me tell you another things, for example my brother and his family came to United States ten years ago, no twelve years ago and then they become a citizen after three, three and a half years I think. They become a long before then me. So its process is up to you I mean, when are you applying, when are you getting it. But I got recently, one or two years. CANCEALOSE: Oh, okay. DOGRU: I had green card though before. CANCEALOSE: Mhmm. KELLEHER: What made you change your mind? You said you waited. Most people wait after the four year process. What made you want to wait even longer? DOGRU: Well this, which is good, just time. I couldn’t find time to apply because as I said process is long. So you have to fill lots and lots and lots of forms and they sometimes send you for fingerprinting in somewhere. Sometimes Detroit. So you won’t have time to go there. So time was very difficult. At that time I wasn’t tenured also. I didn’t know whether I would be able to tenure or not. So I said ‘Well, just wait. Wait and see what will going, and how it goes the process.’ And then then I got tenured, I said ‘Oh, okay then let me get it.’ (Laughs) KELLEHER: Was there a time where you ever, or will there be a time you think where you want to go back to Turkey? And if... just don't want to be here anymore and you want to go back home? DOGRU: Was there a time? . Ph.D. is a very hard job, especially in mathematics, the reason I wanted to go back home and quit everything sometimes, whenever I get very, very stressed because of the work got too hard. But as I said I'm not quitting very quickly, that easy. Yes once in a while I said ‘Ok I'm leaving this things, I don't want to be doctor, I don't want anything anymore,’ that moment’s came but usually because of the work stressed. But that kind of moment never came after my PhD. I'm done with that, it’s ok. Yes work was hard from time to time but there's the expression or the saying in Turkish language, ‘I burned all my ships to go back.’ There's no way back now, I don't know does it make sense for you or not. I came with the ships but I burned them all so there's no way back. So this is my way home, that's it. KELLEHER: What made you decide math? Page 12 �DOGRU: Oh that's a long story, but this is a very classical I guess. From the childhood, (laugh), but it's true because I was really unique in my classes since from the elementary school. I was very enjoying mathematics and then my teachers usually picked me for mathematical competition, mathematical whatever we have some kind of program stuff. I was picked all the time, so that give me kind of proud and saying ‘ooh, I'm doing something good’ (laugh). And it continued, and mathematics opened me to go abroad. Opened the opportunity to give me opportunity to go abroad. So I came to United States. If I'm a chemistry major for example, or let's say biology. In those types of areas, not much foreign students can be able to find a job here. Mathematics is a little bit better, it's really interesting but when you have graduate school, every school has a different type of, let's say, math, biology, chemistry and those types of things. And especially the finance related schools, you won't be able to find a lot of foreigners in there, so you will just international, you will just go ahead and pick those schools and then people who are finding jobs from those schools, which originally from other countries is much less than people are finding jobs here, from other countries, in physics, mathematics, , engineering, those are more in here. I mean you can find a job better. KELLEHER: Why do you think that difference exists? You said it would be different if you were a chemistry major. It would be more difficult for you to find a position. DOGRU: That's right. I don't know. I think people who are here, especially in mathematics, American students, in other words are just born and raised in United States, they don't like mathematics. They say ‘We hate mathematics, we hate math!’ This is could be the reason, maybe it affects above levels, yes we have lots of American born faculty members and stuff but in big research universities, if you really go there. It's the foreign, ‘foreign faculties’ (laugh), are more over there. So that case, I think that education is from the bottom I think, from the elementary school, and especially in Asia and Balkan region and not recently but earlier in Russia. And those area are really strong in mathematics and physics and those kinds of things. I don't know, I mean I'm not education person in that subject, you know. KELLEHER: Do you think if you were still, if you were born here in the US would you still consider yourself Turkish, Muslim American, you claimed your ancestry, you still would have been able to get the same position? Or going off of when we were talking about the differences in being able to get the job and job opportunities, do you think you would have had the same opportunity to get this position or any of the other ones you were offered? DOGRU: You mean if I was born here, raised here, go to school here to prepare myself? KELLEHER: But you still practice your... DOGRU: My religion and my background and culture. KELLEHER: Right and you claimed your Turkish decent and you claimed that, just a hypothetical... DOGRU: I believe so. The reason is, I mean I don't know how good I would be at the time, my education would be where, I mean how much mathematics I would know or whether I would be able to do those PhD, asse that everything is done, I believe would the same qualification and the same time I would Page 13 �have the same job offers because those job offers or , those job posts, doesn't separate about the culture or the religion, about the what country you are from, about the you understand what I am saying? I mean whenever we search even right now I mean whenever we search some faculty position, for some faculty position, we just give the qualification and we put over there, what kind of things we are looking for in that person. And those things doesn't include their culture and their background and their religion. Those are totally different things, so it's a good thing in fact. So whether I born there whether I born here doesn't matter but all I need is match the qualification and you're what they are looking for. As long as they match I think they will be ok. KELLEHER: Will you tell us about your family? DOGRU: My family, as I said I'm not married and I don't have children, I don't have my own small family, but as a family I have my brother who is in Pennsylvania. He is the closest family right now I have. And he has two kids going to Penn state, so good. And then I have four cousins but we don't see each other much because they are in Turkey and I am here and travel is too expensive. Well you may say ‘well travel is not there but Skype is there,’ but everybody is so busy. So it's difficult. Once in a while yes in the holidays and here and there when some wedding ceremonies and stuff we call each other or something but other than that we don't want, we don't have, not want, but we don't have very close relations right now. KELLEHER: Do you get to see your brother often? DOGRU: Oh yeah, yes, almost every break, for example Christmas break and ser break. But he didn't have very demanding job before and he was coming and visiting me and I was going and visiting them but now he is working like 24/7 so it's hard for him to come but we talk on the phone. So yeah. KELLEHER: What made your brother, do you know what made your brother want to leave Turkey as well? DOGRU: yeah, I know very well because he, I don't know whether you guys remember or not, in 1999 there was a huge earthquake in Istanbul. Istanbul is the biggest city in Turkey, and in that earthquake my brother with two partners had a big shop that they were sewing and selling the coats, winter coats for man and woman. And they were sewing, it was very good business but unfortunately in that big earthquake everything is gone, because buildings are over and all the customers, the people who are buying from them and selling there are gone too, and the business is just pffff, disappeared. And then those three partners decided to separate, everybody, some of them went to other city, some of them stayed in Istanbul. At that time I was forcing him to apply for a green card. I don't know whether you are familiar with the green card or not. Green card is permanent residency in the United States. And he was applying and that year it was third year for him. There is a green card lottery every year in United States, they have some particular nber of people, for example they were saying 500 people from Turkey, 500 people from, I'm just throwing those countries names, Russia, 500 from Mexico, 500 this, 500 that. So they are making a lottery out of those applications and then they are choosing people. My brother in the third year had this situation, the losing everything. And they got the lottery. They got the green card. So he called me and he said ‘well what we going to do? Can we come?’ ‘Cause they didn't speak English, Page 14 �they didn't have money. That was little difficult at that moment. And I said ‘Well I'm here.’ I was a student but let's try. In the worst case you'll go back and start all over. And then they said ok and they came. At that time kids were very young. My nephew was 9 years old I believe, it's the third grade. And then my niece was the first grade student. They came and the third day we put them in school, without speaking one word of English, my goodness. So they came, they start with the very small thing, like my brother went and washed the dishes at one restaurant and my sister in law babysit for some people. That cased they slowly learned English, the kids of course they grabbed English very, very quick. They helped their parents, I helped a little bit and then they decided ok, we're going just fine, let's go on, let's keep going. Then they're going right now, they're still here. And my nephew right now is the third year college student. Can you believe that? And my niece just started this year, she’s a freshman. So yeah. They decided to be here too. KELLEHER: Do you know of if they've had any encounters, unfortunate encounters where they were treated differently, that you know of? DOGRU: I don't think so, no. The reason is that they live all their lives in Pennsylvania State College, I don't know if you're familiar with that town or not, that town is a very, very diverse place. So in that case there are lots of people that came from other countries. If you are in the environment, you don't feel it. You don't know that you are different because everybody is different in that case. If you call different. So everybody is han, here we go (laugh). Children of God. KELLEHER: Will you talk about the organizations you're involved in? DOGRU: Oh sure! my organizations is the Niagara Foundation. Niagarafoundation.org. I'm doing commercial right now (laugh). It's nonpolitical, nongovernmental, and nonprofit organization. Completely volunteer based and they are trying to promote the dialog and friendship, all the good things you know in the society. And they are doing these things on so many different levels. For example, this Niagara Foundation is best organization. In 11 states is included, Michigan is one of them. So what they are doing is they are having dialog dinners, annual. Almost every city. In those they are bringing all the community leaders together in that dinner. And then we have always three speakers and then we have always a topic, for example the last one was art of living together. So they give a speech on that and with the nice good Turkish food, so we just discuss those things and then we have annual again every city in Michigan. Abrahamic dinners, we put those in that case we invite religious leaders and religious communities to get together. For example the last one was in Alni house here and topic was altruism. And we invited one Jewish, one Christian and was Muslim speaker. They talked about that and we have seminars for example, on 24th, today is what? 21St, I believe it's the 24th at Ann Arbor. Yesterday was in Lansing. There are two seminars called “Heroes of Peace” so in every culture whoever worked very hard for peace, one person will talk about that person. For example Mother Teresa is one of them, Gandhi was one of the topic, and Goolen was another topic. And there are several of them right now but we can check. And then we have for example two weeks they go in Lansing we had for the woman's history month. We had woman panel perspective of all three woman leader from the community. One was senator, the other was medical doctor, and these are all from different communities and then one was dean. Those three ladies talk about their difficulties; the questions like you are asking me right now, it's very similar. So we asked those questions to them and then they gave Page 15 �beautiful presentation. So that helped for the society too. And then the Niagara Foundation, I can go on and on I don't know, you can stop me at any time. And then we can have visitation of the nursing homes, visitation of the young children stays without mom and dad. Foster care. Orphanages, yeah those kinds of places and then they help for the food banks and let me see what else. Oh, that's my favorite one which is the children's day. Last year we had it at Wayne State University and this year they are having it again. In that every single culture in the United States the children coming and performing their own dance, song, things, and so colorful and so beautiful. You can go to the website and see more. And see all the video tapes they have over there, it's so beautiful. And last year even though it was the first one, 17 different ethnic groups send their children for some performance. It was a beautiful one, that was my favorite, anyway. I can go on more, there are luncheons, fors, so many things, visitations and stuff but I'll cut if off. KELLEHER: What about the Turkish American society you mentioned? DOGRU: Very good, in fact this Niagara Foundation and Turkish American society are kind of sister organizations. Niagara Foundation more on the dialog among the societies, among the communities and Turkish American Society is more on cultural stuff. So it's going on the lots of, for example it will be soon, next week sometimes, I'd have to check the date. It will be henna night, do you know henna night? Henna night is the night before the marriage. Girl's friends get together in one house and have a big celebration. Only girls, only girls! Sorry (laugh). Big celebration and then they are culturally, represent those celebration in Ann Arbor, or Detroit, they are doing it this year. It is nice stuff is going on but not just one or two, I mean it's a lot. I cannot list them right now, it’s not possible. So they are yes they are sister organizations but their work is a little bit different. DOGRU: And then, Niagara Foundation… I can go on and on, I don’t know. You may stop me any time. And then we can have, uh, visitation of the nursing homes, visitation of the, uh, young children stays without mom and dad… KELLEHER: Foster care. Orphanages. DOGRU: Orphanages, yeah those kind of places. And then they help for the food banks and, let me see what else. Oh! That’s my favorite one which is the Children’s Day. Last year we had them at Wayne State University and this year they are doing it again and that, every single culture in United States, the children uh coming and performing their own dance, song, things. And so colorful and so beautiful. You can go to website and have more and see all those web videotapes they have over there. It’s so beautiful. And last year, even though it was the first one, 17 different ethnic groups and their children for some performance. It was a beautiful one. That was my favorite, well anyway. I can go on more. There are luncheons, fors, so many things, visitations, and stuff, but I’ll cut it off. KELLEHER: What about the Turkish-American… uh… Michigan Society that you mentioned? DOGRU: Very good. In fact, this Niagara Foundation and Turkish-American Society are kind of sister organizations. Niagara Foundation… eh… more on the dialog among the societies, among the communities. And Turkish-American Societies is more on cultural stuff. So it’s going on, lots of, for example, it will be soon, next week sometimes. I have to check the date. It will be Henna night. For Page 16 �example, do you know Henna night? So Henna night is a night before the marriage, eh, girl’s friends get together in one house and have a big celebration. Only girls, only girls, sorry! (Laughs) Big celebration and then they are culturally represent those, eh, celebration in Ann Arbor, or Detroit they are doing it this year. So, it is nice stuff is going on. But not just one, two, I mean it is a lot. I cannot list it right now. It is impossible. So they are, so they are yes, sister organizations but their work is a little bit different. DOGRU: Different targets. Okay. We, uh, for, as part of our class had to watch a video. … it was called, , 30 Days. I don’t know if you’re familiar with 30 Days. , they take, err. In this video we watched they took a practicing Christian and they challenged him to live 30 Days as, with a Muslim family. And he had to participate in the things they participated in, dress the way that they’re supposed to, eat the same food, go to, uh, , practice their faith, and it was a really interesting video to watch. And it, we have one of our questions for you was, Muslims are depicted differently on the television. And the media twists things around in almost all aspects of life. And I was wondering what your, , kind of take was on the way, uh, Muslims are viewed through the media’s eyes… if you have an opinion on that. DOGRU: Well, unfortunately you can hear right now it’s very little positive things about Islam or Muslims. Well, (sigh), it is really unfortunate but right now one good thing. I usually pick the good things. In fact, one good thing, uh, people, especially the young generation: eager to learn before decide. So, the older generation when I look or talk, whatever they hear from the media, they just have it. And unfortunately since media doesn’t talk very positive, then they have very negative view towards Islam and towards Muslims. But, as I said, young generation is little bit more curious before taking it in, maybe because of the technology. I don’t know. They know the internet, they know the Facebook. They can communicate much faster than older generation. Even me, I mean you are, you guys are much better than me. And then they are learning. And they are can reach the information easier, faster. And then they decide their own instead of uh, listening someone else’s opinion about something. Which is a very, very big plus for me. , how can we change the media? Can we do it? Mmm… not very soon. The reason is I’m saying this is a recently I learned that it was in the internet again. There is a special, uh, company. It’s really paid with the big budget and their job is create a bad media against Islam. And then the company beside this, uh, fear.inc. Fear dot I mean information is in here. So they give incorporations. So if you read that thing, they give who is donating that money, how much money, how they are working, what they are doing. And there is a huge things going on behind the scenes. So it’s very clear that there is a active, , work just, just, just to be bad publicizing Islam and, ah, Muslims. So in that case, that will be always there. It won’t go away. But, as I said, I mean, without learning, the young generation usually don’t fall into that… hole. So which is good. And about Muslims, , I cannot say all of them are nice. Muslims are, Muslims are also a han being. And there are bad ones too. There are the ones that I can’t even see and hear sometimes and I want to slap them! So, there are. Unfortunately, just looking at those people and then decide about their religion, that’s a wrong decision. In any religion. In Islam, in Christianity, on Judaism, or Buddhism, or whatever, or Hinduism, whatever you are approaching. You cannot judge a religion by looking at just one or two people. Could be those two people are not even practicing. So, but they call themselves Muslim, and they call themselves something else. And then so then the whole religion is getting the bad influence? No. That’s not right. If someone wants to learn about Islam, or Muslims, or Christianity, or Judaism, they supposed to learn from the right sources. And it is really hard, I can tell. I mean, how can you decide which is right, which is wrong? And for us, one Page 17 �good guidance is always there, as a Muslim, by myself. Sometimes some books even can confuse me. Uh, the Quran is my first guidance because that never ever changed; that’s the good part. From the beginning, ‘till now. Go to Malaysia, go to Indonesia, go to Arabia, go to Turkey, go anywhere! It’s still the same. I know sometimes it’s hard to understand. I know we have to read the translation not the real one. But still, that’s the best guidance in the moment that we cannot decide. We confused. That is, that is what I can say on that. But, of course. I mean if you, if, if you want to learn good sources and good references, you can see, I mean, if somebody who’s not practicing Islam. Somebody who’s, eh, not doing anything related to it and suddenly comes and talks about Islam. If you listen that one, how healthy is that? I mean it’s very obvious and logical. All you need to do is more, mean you can look at people’s life even you can decide, ‘Oh! That person is doing good in her or his religion.’ You know? And plus, that you said Christian lived in a Muslim family… this is a good gesture. It’s good. But to force people to live in somebody’s home and somebody’s culture, why? It’s not necessary. We supposed to celebrate our differences and our commonalities. Why do, he’s wonderful with his belief, Christian. And she or he is wonderful with his/her belief, Muslim. So why not put them common ground and let them practice that and let them practice that. We have to have a differences. We cannot put everybody in a same clothes. That’s impossible! We have to have the differences. That’s the beauty. The Niagara Foundation is in fact emphasizing this one a lot. One thing I forgot, can I go back and tell one more thing about it? Uh, when I say differences and stuff in them… we have every year, Noah’s Pudding celebration. I don’t know whether you’ve heard about it or not. Do you know? , Noah’s Pudding: everybody knows Noah, right? Is a prophet long time back, had flood, lots of animals and his, eh, ship. And then flood is gone and was everything was out and happens. Good! Very good. In that time, at the end of the flood, eh, the food inside the ship is almost finished. And they had little bit of this, little bit of that, of rice and nuts, and whatever you can think of, grains, and fruits, dried fruits and anything. But everything is little by little. But they have to have a big dish to eat; maybe the last dish but big dish. What they do is put altogether and cooked. Niagara Foundation makes it every year. Same dish. We call it Noah’s Pudding. So many different things at the same time! That dish is delicious, sweet dish. It’s delicious! So, we look at people like that! I am Muslim, somebody’s Christian, somebody’s Jewish, somebody is... uh… Hindu, somebody’s Buddhist, somebody is something else that I don’t remember right now. That’s okay. We come together and we can make a very good Noah’s Pudding. Trust me. (Laughs) Maybe I should bring Noah’s Pudding here to share with everyone. That, I should do that. You give me idea, okay! I’ll, I’ll try. KELLEHER: … going back to, uh, before the story about Noah’s Pudding, , you talked about the differences: let them practice this, let these people practice this. In the video, when you said you can’t uh, look at two people and get an idea for an entire culture, you can’t get an idea and an understanding. That’s the realization that , this man, this Christian man came to when he spent the 30 days with the Muslim family. And it was, he said almost the exact same thing, he said ‘you can’t blame (in reference to he heard a lot about 9/11 and the treatment of Muslims after that time.) He said you can’t blame a country or a religion or a group of people for the actions of five.’ And his time that he spent in, with, in the 30 days was really a way of educating himself about it because he didn’t know about it. And it was wonderful to see how his viewpoints turned and I just… DOGRU: He’s, he’s right. I mean, you cannot just go on and see a couple bad people and then say ‘oh, that religion is bad.’ But you don’t know the billions and billions of people following that religion maybe Page 18 �is good, you know? So it’s kind of very, very difficult things. , knowledge is important. If people know what is what, then they know better. In that case they won’t decide with the one or two people, obedient or behaviors. Definitely. But I don’t know how to increase the knowledge, well, that is my goal too. KELLEHER: As part of your organizations. DOGRU: Exactly yeah. Inviting people and trying to tell. , also I blame some Muslim people too. They were too closed before 9/11. They weren’t, integrated in the society. You understand what I’m saying? I mean, they were, they just lived in their own community. Which is not right. You have to know your neighbor. You have to help your neighbor. You have to say hi to your neighbor. This is Islam. But unfortunately, before 9/11, we had, well, somehow Muslim community here and they don’t mix up with others. So that was bad too. Right now, that’s what we’re trying to do. I mean because, han being is han being. If you have children, you love them. If you see something bad, you hate them. If you, if you are hungry, you love good food! Right? Han being is a han being. I mean, Mom, just think about this. Mom and their children. Do you think is any different than any other culture than Muslims? Muslims there, this country, or some other religion here in this country. Do you think mothers and children relation is different? No. Their love is exactly the same way. And everybody’s cry… One person told me that, it was really, (sigh) , I will just, I told him you are ignorant. He said ‘well I didn’t know that Muslims could sit and cry too.’ I said ‘what are you talking about!’ You are… because they are always fight? In their eyes they always fight. They always like fighters and they supposed to not cry at all. They are han idiot! I’m sorry. (Laughs) No! They laugh, they cry, they work, and they have friends, they have family. They are exactly the same. Because han feelings are the same. Doesn’t matter where you’re born, what kind of religion you belong to. Well… knowledge. KELLEHER: Do you think that goes back to how you are portrayed in the media? DOGRU: Probably, yeah. Probably. Right now is much better, as I said. Internet is much better. Because the years I came here, uh… 1990, there wasn’t much internet at that time. I mean we didn’t have, we had email and stuff but internet was totally different thing. I mean we didn’t have that kind of thing, information. At that time on TV there were special channel about the religion. Sometimes I remember in front of that channel, sit down and cry. Because of what they were saying about Islam. And I was thinking, not because they were saying, and I was thinking… people who doesn’t know listen this one and they are really thinking, Islam is this. It’s such a different knowledge. My goodness. How could they say it, but they were saying it. But right now I’m happy because, eh, generation like you, they found millions of them. And they can pick. They can decide. KELLEHER: There’s a TV show now on TLC, , called Muslims in America. Do you know that? I haven’t been able to watch it. DOGRU: How is it? I mean is it good? Negative or positive? KELLEHER: I think it’s… I think its main point; I read a synopsis about it is. DOGRU: I don’t have cable so… Page 19 �KELLEHER: I think its main point is to highlight, is education, to educate people. That they’re not, like they are hans, like you said. And at least this is what I’ve gained. Just from my little bit of reading I’ve done and watching the previews for it but… you know that they are people too and just living their lives. And that they’re treated differently just for living like all the rest of us. That’s my understanding. DOGRU: It is changing though. We have a lot of hope for you guys. Young generation and your kids. KELLEHER: Are you able to interact with, uh, other Muslims here in your community through the Foundation and through…? DOGRU: Through my Foundation. Most of my Foundation people are in Lansing. I keep Lansing very often to meet them in some kind of activities to join and everything. And at the same time there’s a very nice, uh, group of Muslims here. Uh, international from many, many different countries. They are Americans, they are Malaysians, there are Turkish, (laughs), there are some other ethnic groups but they come together sometimes. Yes I join them many, many times. Not very often because we are so busy and school. Whenever I have time. Let’s say that way. I go and join them. Especially in the holidays. We get together to celebrate the holidays. So in that case, yeah. I know them. But not every day, every night like, uh, not every week. Everybody’s working. KELLEHER: Well… I can’t think of any other questions, can you? Do you have any questions you can think of? CANCEALOSE: Nope. Not that I can think of. KELLEHER: Thank you so much! END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5e944f4f1f1de1fd0969b22f37c7dd2.mp3 b61b24e9b109f1a4d4b446dcd7cb873b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Dogru_Filiz Title A name given to the resource Filiz Dogru audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dogru, Filiz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kelleher, Allison Ramirez, Ray Johnsen, Lukas Cangealos, Jaci Description An account of the resource Filiz Dogru was born in Turkey, came to the United States in 1990, and settled in West Michigan in August 2003. He is a professor at Grand Valley State University and an active member of the Niagara foundation and the Turkish American Michigan society. He discusses how he never felt different until moving to West Michigan, although the Grand Rapids area is improving on diversity. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/219f62b64221bf0a5602606da6931317.pdf 698cdcb55628d91b7d24721eb0dd4f6f PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Doug van Doren Interviewers: Shae Johnson, Daniel Gotshall, Derek Wolff Supervising Faculty: Joel Wendland Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/13/2011 Runtime: 00:58:09 Biography and Description Doug van Doren is a pastor of Plymout United Church of Chrrist and he is involved with the community in a number of areas. In this interview he describes experiences of discretionary practices and prejudice toward people of color in the West Michigan area. Transcript Derek Wolff: My name is Derek Wolff. I’m here with Dan Gotshall. Today is December 13, 2011. We are here with the Reverand Doug Van Doren. (To Doug) We are here today to talk about your experiences within the Civil Rights Movement in West Michigan. DW: Before we can do that, we have to get to your basic information. For the record, could you please spell out your full name? Doug Van Doren: Douglas, D o u g l a s Van V a n Doren capital D o r e n. DW: Thank you. Could you give me the date of birth and the place that you were born in? DVD: I was born in Adrian, Michigan, July 13, 1952. DW: Thank you. Could you just tell me briefly about your parents and any sibling that you might have? DVD: Parents are deceased. I have two older brothers and an older sister and a younger sister, so there are five of us all together. DW: What are their names? DVD: Chuck, Carol, Steve and Pat. DW: Ok, thank you. Are you married? DVD: I am married to Colleen Mahone Van Doren, and we have a fourteen year old son, Aiden. DW: Ok, thank you. Your education, going back to high school and did you attend college at all? Page 1 �DVD: Graduated from high school in 1970, attended Eastern Michigan University, graduated with actually a bachelor’s of social work from there in 1975 and then went to grad school at the University of Chicago at the Chicago Theological Seminary. Graduated with a Master’s in Divinity from there in 1978. DW: Ok, your community involvement, professions and any political affiliation or preferred political party. I’d imagine, and I’m sorry to cut you off here, your community involvement and profession that a lot of that is going to revolve around the Plymouth United Church of Christ. DVD: Right, I’ve been a pastor of Plymouth United Church of Christ since 1978 and I’ve been involved with the community in a number of areas. I’ve been a board member and am currently still a board member of the Grand Rapids Urban League. I’ve been involved with the board of and chaired Planned Parenthood of West Michigan. I’ve was involved with Concerned Clergy here in West Michigan and over the years a number of other local organizations and issues. DW: Ok, thank you. I guess, when did you first come to the West Michigan area. I came in 1978. DVD: I was born on the south-east side of the state, came here in the fall of 1978. DW: Ok, and you’ve basically been around the area with regards to, well essentially all of your life except for time spent away at school, correct? DVD: I’ve been in Michigan for that time. The first part, until seminary, was south-east Michigan. DW: All right, thank you. That clears that stage of this process. I guess what I’d like to talk to you first about is just your personal history within the civil rights movement as well, so can you just go back to a time; do you remember the first instance or involvement that you had within a civil rights movement? DVD: First direct involvement, I was after the big civil rights movement in terms of racial justice. I was a child, or at least Junior High, when King was active, so probably my first organized involvements were in seminary working with a number of African-American students just dealing with what appeared to be discretionary practices and prejudice in relations to how people of color were treated in UFC and parts of the seminary community. DW: Ok, I guess, how have you relayed some of those experiences to discrimination of sorts within the Grand Rapids community? DVD: Well, the more you see, the more you learn. And so, having direct involvement with people of color and their perspective began to shape my understanding; as a dominant class person you can’t experience or know those things directly, but if you listen carefully and if you’re trusted by minority folks in these situations then you can get a glimpse of what it’s like, how they see the world and stuff that we dominant culture people miss. So, I think that was probably, that learning process that is still going on of course, at that point. That also branched out into, we were working very hard with divesture issues in South Africa and I was working with that in seminary, which has a lot of links to local discrimination, to discrimination of African Americans here (U.S.). So when I came here I also continued the work, trying to get corporations and so forth to divest from South Africa, which we were successful with the city with some of its funds. Page 2 �DW: Thank you. Dan Gotshall: I guess what it is you think that you think kind of influenced you to go into this kind of area? DVD: That’s a great question; it’s a tough question of course. It’s a basic culture. My parents are, my father especially, they were politically in a different place, politically more conservative but socially they were, for them it was all about fairness and equality. In that regard, they both had a great sensitivity to that. Probably my mother especially, and so even though I don’t remember specific lessons about people of color and where I grew up there were very few people of color. I grew up in rural Michigan; still, that culture of fairness was really, really important in my family and then, my Christian beliefs, as a clergy, for me that is basic to the gospel. Justice, all are God’s children and so discriminating against people and setting up systems that discriminate against people is just anti-biblical as well as far as I’m concerned. DW: Do you ever infuse any of these personal beliefs and also, when you talk about Christianity, it’s just doing the right thing, trying to send the right message; do you infuse any of these into your sermons when you preach? DVD: Oh sure. The church I pastor is very socially active and it understands Christianity to be a liberation kind of a perspective and that Jesus really is the liberator in many kinds of ways. So, it’s central to my understanding of the gospel, therefore to my preaching. Hopefully it goes that way at least. DW: Let’s see here. Let’s talk about your upbringing a little bit as well. You mentioned you have multiple siblings. When you were growing up, did any of your siblings; did any of your family members, any of your friends, really just go through any discrimination against them, or anything along those lines? DVD: I grew up on a dairy farm in a rural community, a sizeable dairy farm. My oldest brother and sister are adopted, which may be, you know, sort of right from there it was clear there was no difference in terms of how valued or loved they were as compared to us, so maybe right from the beginning there was that sense of, you know, it didn’t matter ones origin and so forth, we were equally valued. I don’t remember, and in my family, we were dominant culture people, you know, we’re white, we were rural people. but were dairy farmers and the hierarchy of farmers is just crazy, but there’s a hierarchy there to so the dairy farmers were, as I look back at it, probably at the top of the hierarchy in that community. But, interesting, and actually I went to a one room school house for the first four years of my life, and in the Adrian area there is a fairly large number of people who settled there having been migrant workers, so there’s a fairly large Hispanic, particularly Mexican, population there. There was a family that went to the same one room school house that were on the other side of the school a few miles away and they had a bunch of kids, and some of them were my age. We were allowed, as kids, their parents spoke no English, and I would, I remember going to stay with that family, I’d stay overnight with my friend there, they had chickens in their attic and so forth and culturally were very different from us. But my parents allowed us to do that. We didn’t think anything of it because I was pretty young. That was a really helpful early cultural experience and my parents had no qualms at all about going in to what was the Mexican community for restaurants and it wasn’t like I had a sense that some people stayed out of that Page 3 �community. I think those are just subtle ways, or I guess not so subtle ways that I didn’t understand at the time as a child, but that I took in. DW: Also, when you were growing up, was there anyone that you looked up to within the Civil Rights Movement, or going to college anyone along those same lines? DVD: Well, certainly as I got into later high school and college, certainly Dr. King because that was very vivid at that point, but also Malcom X. I think Malcom X is really underrated in relation to the whole Civil Rights Movement. I think his legacy, it wasn’t a challenge of Dr. King but is was expressing that that whole era of black power and so forth was a really important expression and Malcom X was really key. I still think his autobiography is very powerful and everybody ought to read it. It goes through his transformation and his early influences and Marcus Garvey, going back, certainly W. E. B. Dubois but also Howard Thurman. Howard Thurman is really kind of a mystic, very powerful figure who started the Church of All Nations in San Francisco. He did a number of writings and in fact he wrote Jesus and the Disinherited in 1947. It was really a precursor to the African American liberation theology, powerful, powerful stuff so he’s one that I very much admire. He doesn’t get any credit in terms of the whole justice struggle for African-Americans but he was really very key I think in that. DG: As your career moved on and as you moved into this area, how did your thinking about your identity change and grow? DVD: I guess it grew and solidified as an ally. That’s really because really early on, I was also involved with… even I was out of high school for a year after college, I was out a year before going to college and then that year I was involved with wider church things and got very involved in justice for gay and lesbian people. So I was a youth leader in our denomination state wide structure and so at that annual meeting I was really involved with that so I began to see the need for and the role of allies in a number of liberation studies. You know, that, that role and the identity, the need for that, but also the identity, clarity about the identity in terms of white privilege, because one can’t do this work without doing work on yourself, that’s where most of the work happens for dominant culture people so I think doing that work, understanding that work needed to be done and continues to need to be done is a big part of it. My identity as part of that white privilege class, that takes a lot of work. DW: I’m glad you brought up the concept of the ally, because one of the things I had planned on asking you, and this is one of the things I’m trying from Colette as well, is do you consider yourself to be an ally of the LGBT community? DVD: Oh definitely, definitely. That’s, for whatever reason, just early on it seemed to me that the way people are is the way people are and what threat is that to others. So being able to stand with LGBT people is really important. That’s certainly an area where the church that I pastor has been very strong in as well. We’ve influenced each other I think, and the church’s very, very early public stance of openness toward LGBT people. DW: And for you personally, has that always been a mantra that you’ve had, since a young age, or has that developed in time? Page 4 �DVD: Well it’s developed. You know, at a young age you don’t understand those kinds of things and I was at time when homophobia was rampant, especially amongst high school kids when you’re dealing with your own sexual identity and so forth. Then, even more than now still with many people misunderstanding what orientation is as opposed to same sex attraction from time to time, which everybody has along the way. All that confusion is rampant within adolescent kids; that was the case in the culture that I grew up in. But by late high school or certainly by early college in that year I was off, just came to understand and I guess got to know a few gay people, though I don’t think they were “out” gay at that point, but I just had a sense that that was the case. It was early 70’s, it was just beginning to be kind of an issue, at least amongst folks who were not gay or lesbian in that community, among straight folks, it was just beginning to be a justice issue. So from there on, it was important. In seminary, I went to a very progressive seminary with gay folks there, as well as people of color. It was really a heady mix. So, I think I just continued to grow, and as I grew in terms of my biblical understanding it also deepened, I think, that conviction for justice. DW: When you say that this is something you personally believe in, and that your church is behind this, how has that been received by your congregation? DVD: Well the congregation actually made it happen. In my church that I pastor and the denomination that I am in is pretty much structured from the bottom up, so there’s a great deal of local church autonomy so the church votes on everything. If it’s going to be a policy of the church, the congregation votes. So, really in the late 90s we had no openly out or gay people in the congregation at that point. We had parents and siblings and so forth of gay folks. We decided that this was an issue that we really needed to look at very carefully. So, we did a yearlong study on what we called then homosexuality in the church. Then, after that, we did another year of study on becoming an officially open and affirming congregation. Having done that, we went to the congregational meeting having a resolution to become open and affirming, and the congregation voted. There were two extensions of one “no” vote to become open and affirming, and that was in 1998. Part of that means that you are open , not just with LGBT people, but you’re clear with the community that that is your stance, the feeling being that, because the church has been and in many quarters is still a big part of the problem and the discrimination against gay-lesbian-transgender people, then it needs to be clear if it’s not. It needs to be open and affirming of them just as they are, just because we’re assumed to be against LGBT people if we don’t. So that was what happened and we continued to grow in that regard and with that understanding and even though, as I said, we started out without any “out” gay people in the congregation, 25-30% of our congregation now is LGBT. It’s become who we are; LGBT folks are part of the full life of the congregation, serve every place and there’s absolutely no discrimination about who serves where, including nursery and youth groups and all that kind of thing. DW: So now within the congregation itself and within the community, have you received any negative backlash because of it? DVD: Well, within the congregation when it happened a few people decided to leave, though actually more people decided to come, because that was what they hoped and expected out of a church. Yeah, we certainly, it’s amazing the kinds of negative stuff that comes from the community and people who claim to be , in this case, Christian, but just say all kinds of God-awful stuff in the tape machine and Page 5 �quote scripture to me like I’ve never read it. And, you know, a few threats, but it’s not a few threats toward everybody. I’ve had a few threats doing racial injustice work differently, that I have to work with LGBT issues, so yeah you get that and people who think you’re just crazy and can’t possibly be Christian, but truthfully, I’ve gotten much more support than negatives by folks, and they tend not to be church folks, some of them are, but a lot of them aren’t because they’ve given up on the church, but at least say “yeah, that’s what the church ought to be doing.” So, really probably overall more positive than negative. DW: Have you ever felt that your personal safety has been an issue with this at all? DVD: My general motto is, if people make the threat, they’re probably not going to follow through on it. Only one time with a threat and this is in terms of racial justice issues, I showed a copy of what I received to a fellow clergy, and made a copy of what I’d received just in case something happened. At that point I didn’t feel that it was appropriate to go to the police with it but I definitely wanted somebody else to know and I didn’t share it within the congregation because I didn’t figure that it was, you know, it gets everybody nuts and takes it off what the real issue is and that’s the justice part of it. If there would have been threats made against my family or anything like that, and we live a little ways away from the church in our own home, and it didn’t feel like I wanted to give it any more credence at all really. Fortunately, that turned out to be right. DG: Going with some of the past things you’ve said, what kinds of changes within the community have you seen throughout your involvement? DVD: Well in terms of racial justice issues, really early on part of some of the instances I was involved with were a school superintendent here who is African-American, and this was the early 80s, who is pushed out, and all those issues, there are a lot of issues going on in addition to perceptions caused by one’s race, but that highlighted some of the racism in the community. What I’ve seen is many, many people in the community becoming now really aware of what racism looks like, especially institutionalized racism, which is the definition of racism as far as I’m concerned, and doing a number of things to try and combat that. The business community really, Bob Woodrick was early on really involved with that. I chaired a committee, the Grand Rapids Urban League, which began to really look at racism in the community and out of that, David Bach was a part of that, and out of that came the Institute for Racial Justice, out of race the Grand Rapids Center for Humanism and they did a great deal of really, really fine work with the Racial Justice Institute. Bob Woodrick was working in terms of hiring and in terms of the number of businesses, and so now in the community there are a great number of businesses who are very involved in hiring in non-discriminative ways, putting their law firms, other kinds of firms, businesses of all kinds putting people through cultural sensitivity, all kinds of courses. So there’s a lot that has happened in that regard and I think many more people of color in leadership positions and in positions of more power, influence and responsibility in corporations within the community. Is it a thing in the past? Of course not. You look at economic issues-it’s alive and well .A lot of people’s perspectives, still the discrimination differences based on color is there, if you look at school system and the lack of support by the public school system of Grand Rapids by a number of people especially a number of folks with means. I think you still see lower expectations of people of color within the general public, which is still racist. Page 6 �DW: Going back for a sec, could you please give me the dates served with the Grand Rapids Urban League that you were a member of? DVD: Well, I probably began in the Urban League in about 1981. I’ve been on and off, more on that off most of the time since, including I’m on now. I chaired the Urban League two years, and that was probably…2003, 04 maybe, 2003-2005, somewhere around there. DW: Thank you. Let’s talk a little more about your church right now. Have there been things that you guys have done, to just, reduce discrimination within the surrounding area aside from just hunger drives or to fight social injustice as well? DVD: Well, we’re socially active in terms of mission, which we see in terms of helping individuals and social justice, which we see as trying to change systems. We have a just peace task force that continues to be very active, and the biggest thing that we’ve done, which was local in one way but was really opposing the involvement and the invasion of Iraq. We began with a whole wage peace initiative so we were very involved with that. Beginning with that and still we’ve been very involved with a number of groups and agencies that are involved with anti-discrimination and teaching peace. In addition we’ve used church property to build housing for people with chronic mental illness. Talk about a group discriminated against, in all kinds of ways, in terms of public perception, housing, just everything. So, (we’ve been) directly involved with that group in terms of finding housing and then advocacy on their behalf, or with them. I hate to talk about “on people’s behalf” because it makes them sound like they don’t have power. They do have power; it’s more a matter of standing with them. We also, it terms of more direct kinds of ways we’re also a host for Family Promise, which is a group that houses homeless families in churches on a rotating basis. That’s more of a direct service but it’s working directly with many people. Many people of color are caught up in the whole economic disparity that has been rampant, especially for people of color, for a long time. Other than that we try to be as a congregation very involved with local proposals, like when Grand Rapids included sexual orientation in terms of protected class, in terms of non-discrimination. When things come up in the community that are issues with racial injustice, we tend to be both as individuals in the congregation and as a community, we tend to be pretty involved with that. DW: Thank you. DVD: In terms of talking about the church, and this is an extension of the church, an extension of me, I was part of the group that organized Concerned Clergy, which organized in 1995, 96. There was a whole lot of discrimination at that point against gay folks, so a few of us got together and decided that as pastors, we really needed to take a stand and speak to our churches, to our church communities and to the community at large that LGBT people ought to be part of the full life and ministry of the churches and the community. Not as objects of mission, but as full particiapants. We began gathering clergy and had a sizeable group that did a letter to the community that was published on the front page of the Sunday issue in, it must have been spring of 96 or 97, and at that point, talk about shifts within community’s perception. Prior to our letter, which was signed by about 60 or 70 clergy in West Michigan, and people were amazed that there were that many clergy who were 1) supportive and 2) wanted to sign. Letters to the editor, prior to that, were very anti-gay and they acted like they were Page 7 �speaking on behalf of everybody, that their perspective was the community norm. People who were supportive of LGBT people were writing more defensively. After a year, after our letter to the community came out and we were doing much more support and a number of other things for people, letters to the editor written by people against LGBT people seemed to be defensive, they were no longer speaking on behalf of the whole community. If you weren’t looking for it maybe you didn’t see it, but it was a very clear shift in the community’s perspective, and right around that time is when I take that this community began to shift from just assuming that the Bible and everybody was against LGBT people to having to think about that differently and at least begin to question that that’s not the case. There are some times when you see community shifts and that one for me was pretty clear, that moment in time. DW: Have you ever taken, or thought about taken these beliefs that you’ve certainly infused within the community to sort of a national level? DVD: Well, we’ve been involved and I’ve been involved with, especially our denomination and other denominations in terms of our church’s experiences as well as being involved in advocacy levels on the national level both with our own denomination and with the welcoming movement. I’ve attended a couple times; it’s called Witness our Welcome which is a national gathering of welcoming individuals and welcoming churches. I’ve had a role of speaking there with strategizing and our experiences, so that’s an important thing to try to do this at whatever levels can be done. DW: Gotcha. Sort of just the fight against discrimination today is a lot different than the 1960s. Then it was more of a racial thing, today it’s more fighting for causes, more anti-war, as we’ve been talking a lot about the LGBT movement. Can you sort of compare the two at all or is it more of a different era. DVD: Well, it’s, discrimination and prejudice discrimination and how they’re institutionalized have many, many common threads. All of them at baseline are devaluing people, based on something that is a bias of the dominant culture and so in that they have a great deal in common. As a dominant culture person, I can say that they have a lot of things in common, but I can’t speak for, I can speak for differences I observe but I can’t speak authoritatively for the differences that people in those various groups that have been discriminated against can. A lot of folks sort of lively put the struggle for gay rights and the struggle for racial justice in the same place, and they are very different. There are allies in both of those communities. The dominant culture wants to either put them together as the same struggle or they want to pit them against each other, neither of which is appropriate. The bottom line is the dominant culture’s desire to keep things the way they are and it’s usually, or often an unexamined assumption on what’s most valuable, what’s most important, and then those have become institutionalized. Some of the best people and some of the most non-discriminative people I know are the heads of some of the most discriminative corporations I know, because that’s where racism is institutionalized. The call in all of these areas is to be anti-racist or anti-sexist or anti-orientation bias in that regard. Some of the people in cultures, some of the cultures that have been most discriminated against, like African-American cultures, say yeah, these issues of liberation and discrimination are much the same. There are also some big differences but we of all people ought to be sensitive to other people’s issues around those issues. For me, it’s an issue of justice overall and the step that’s further for me is well being for the whole community because the whole community, including the dominant community suffers when the gifts of various people and cultures are not included. So we need for the best of the whole culture overall, we Page 8 �need the gifts because hopefully there is a selfish part of it as well that really sees the value of those, from the gifts that people bring across the board. That’s what makes these issues and this movement partnerships rather than missions or “on behalf of”. Nobody wants to be, nor should they be, objects of missions. That’s a subtle but really powerful form of discrimination as well. It says, “We need to do this for you, or to you”, we need to do it for ourselves as well and we need to do it in partnerships so everybody gains. DG: So you feel like in the community as a whole you’ve seen a lot of progress? DVD: There has been, there has been a lot of progress. I don’t think can be denied. Certainly, overt racism is much less than it was. There’s still a lot of overt individual prejudice and prejudice that gets mouthed so that people of color certainly get called names or get turned against or turned away from, devalued in many settings, both institutionally and by individuals but not as much as has been the case in the past, so there’s progress being made but that’s not to say that it’s not happening. When it becomes ingrained economically as well, it’s really a component of economic issues and poverty but it’s hard to see where all those threads run and how exactly, clearly there’s that legacy of discrimination and its taken root in disparities, economically as well. In terms of the LGBT arena, certainly great progress made there as well. There are many, many people who are willing to stand up and say, “Discrimination against LGBT people is absolutely wrong”. There’s a lot more places where LGBT people can feel safe and welcome. A lot more church communities now. When we became open and affirming we were the only church outside of the gay-denomination church in town who was openly welcome to an affirming stance of the church. Now there are a number of them and there are more who are welcoming or at least gay friendly. So again, there’s a lot of change in that regard as well but you still get the backlash. Look at Holland. They weren’t willing to pass a, to include anti-gay in their protective class and state-wide, the referendum that made it clear that only between a man and a woman was an official marriage so there’s that backlash, there’s still a lot that still needs to be done. DW: This might be a difficult thing to answer but is it possible for you to measure success in terms of fighting against racial discrimination, social injustice and just the protests of anti-LGBT community? DVD: Well, it’s possible; it’s probably not advisable. It’s possible in the sense that yeah, you can look back and say, “Some things have changed, and some things have changed for the better.” There are times when unfortunately you look back and say, “Gee, things have not changed for the better,” but for me, and I suppose this comes out of my religious stance as well, you don’t do it because you’re certainly going to make a difference, you do it because it’s the right thing to do. There was a great interview, I think it was Daniel Berigen, who was very involved from early on pre-60s but 60s and 70s, all the way through with anti-war, justice of all types and as he was getting older, his years, and this was probably in the late 90s, he was asked, “So many other people who were involved with you early on have dropped out of the movement. They got discouraged. Why are you still involved?” And he said to them, “Well, it wasn’t because I thought I could make a difference, that was what I was called to do.” So for me, trying to work on behalf of, in my religious language, trying to work on behalf of the world you think God intends is what I was called to do. So it’s really nice if you can see progress because that keeps us going. Everybody wants to think they’re doing something worthwhile, but these are huge issues and there is urgency but they also can take a huge amount of time and so continuing that urgency that any more Page 9 �time of discrimination of victims is way too many-that was Dr. King’s point in The Grand Urgency of Now but one also has to realize that sometimes things change slowly. DG: Are there any works or any writing that you hold very highly and represent what you do very well? DVD: Oh boy, yeah but the titles always leave my head. For me, the liberation theologies are really important, the early African-American liberation theologies, the central-American ones, Gustavo Gutierrez, his writings. Women, minority women, This Bridge Called My Back I recall, that was in the early 80s was a really powerful book for me. Walking on Thorns by Ellen Busack was in the middle of the anti-apartheid movement. Further back, Paul Tillick’s Love, Power and Justice was really, really key for me. A number of more recent writings by gay and lesbian people, a number of them now that they’re particularly important. As I said, probably the first book that really began to shift perspective for me was, as I referenced before, Howard Thurman’s Jesus and The Disinherited and there’s a very early writing by Olive Schriener who was a white south-African woman, late 1800s early 1900s who did some writing on women and women at labor on African farms. They’re out of print now, but just amazing things, not as much by what they said, though that’s some of it, but also by who said it out of what era and so forth. Desmond Tutu’s book about hope, really another good one. I try to do a lot of reading in those areas and things that go together in relations between titles and authors, but yeah, there’s a lot of really powerful stuff out there. DW: Thank you. We have talked a lot about the progress that has been made both by you personally, by your church, by the community. Are there any areas that you feel are still lacking in progress or that the least progress has been made in terms of just fighting social injustice? DVD: Well, I think in schools. It’s an entrenched, devaluing of urban school and urban children and I just think that is an area, I think urban children are highly discriminated against. You don’t have to say that it’s intentional or that people are consciously against, but I think if you look at lack of support for, lack of valuation of urban school districts including Grand Rapids, that’s an area that you just can’t deny. Urban kids are devalued. That’s all one needs to know when you’re dealing with discrimination, that a certain group of folks is devalued. And so, that’s cause enough to try to deal with that devaluation, since there’s discrimination, prejudice there that is the root of that. So that’s an area that certainly needs to be. An area that’s beginning to get a little progress, but a huge amount more needs to be made in terms of understanding and non-discrimination is transgender people. There is a much, much larger transgender or what the dominant culture would call gender variant community out there than most folks, especially most straight folks, would understand. They’re in a particularly difficult place because they’re lumped by the dominant culture with gay and lesbian and bisexual folks, but that’s a very different reality. LGB folks aren’t transgender, don’t want to be identified as transgender, transgender folks have a whole different set of things so I think sophistication in that regard, both in understanding and non-discrimination for transgender folks really needs to be, more progress needs to be made. It’s just beginning to happen. DW: I guess to, how do you feel that society will in time, or do you feel that society in time will stop devaluing some of these groups of people? Page 10 �DVD: Well, in relation to LGBT folks, that’s moving very fast; that genie is out of the bottle. So, you see, one has to be careful historically, you see that cultures do go backwards sometimes and the backlash, you see how strong it is with groups like the American Family Association that focus on the family and so forth and even some well-moneyed people in West Michigan giving up a lot of money to those groups that want to turn the clock back on gay rights so you have to be careful and keep working and not assume that this is just going to go forward. But, that as I say, is not going back in the closet, so I think you can see how fast that is moving, surveys in relation to the people who are favor of legal marriage for LGBT people, those have moved up very fast. You see the places and states where that has happened. I think that your generation and people younger than you, so college kids, traditional aged college kids and younger are much, much more open to various people of color, culture, various cultural expressions, so I think that if we can keep the older generations from effecting them too much, and help both the older generation and that generation to see how this is perpetuated in systems that they need to combat, then we’ll continue to make progress on a racial justice scale as well. DW: Kind of the track a little bit, but have you seen the campaign video by Governor Rick Perry of Texas? DVD: I haven’t. DW: Basically, he has this, “Strong” is the title of the video I believe. It’s an advertisement where he goes off against the gay community, and it’s had a huge negative backlash for him personally, but what is your response when someone with political power like that, he’s running for President next year, what’s your response when there is still that sort of ignorance within society, at that kind of level? DVD: Well, it’s scary for one. It makes me angry for another. It’s used for political gain, it may well be his beliefs but it was clear when Bush won his second term that the issues that were put on the ballot had to do in many states, especially the states that were very important in his winning, were ones that dealt with homosexuality especially because they were trying to get out that right wing vote, and it worked. If you look at Ohio, Michigan I believe it was that year, but certainly it was Ohio and some of those key states, so it’s a political strategy as well. He probably believes that, but they’ve seen that they can get mileage out of it. It worries me about what do they perceive that they’re buying into or rather pulling out of the electorate and you know, they’re playing into those prejudices, those fear tactics that the US that we once had, which is probably a fantasy for most people, will come again if we just keep these bad people outside. It worries me on several levels that there are enough people to buy into it along with some other sort of ideological issues that can get somebody, hopefully not that extreme but still same kinds of people who would vote for him would vote for a person who is a little bit less extreme and have that power in the nation. I think you see that in the Michigan legislature. I think it is certainly not at all friendly to LGBT issues, so I find it scary. I would like to find it laughable but I think one needs to take it more seriously than that, but I hope it really does backfire on him. DW: It’s got several hundred thousand dislikes on YouTube now, I believe, compared to just hundreds of likes. DVD: Yeah, but who is sitting there who never gets on their computer who is going to vote for somebody who represents those kinds of views. But that just means that the people who aren’t, the Page 11 �people who think that that is just nonsense need to stand up, you can’t assume that others think that’s nonsense; you got to say that too. DW: Gotcha. That’s really all I’ve got. (To Dan) Is there anything else you’ve got? DG: Yeah, I think we’ve gone over pretty much everything? DW: Okay. (To Doug) Is there anything else personally you’d like to add for the project? DVD: Umm, no. I guess not. It’s been interesting to think of the sort of parallel tracks but not much intersection of the anti-discrimination issues in terms of civil rights for people of color and LGBT rights. I’ve been involved with both of those and people who know I’m involved with both of those, especially even in the black community, are supportive of me in that regard, but it would be, hopefully as we move along there will be less separateness to those two struggles than there is now, so that’s happening but the racial justice struggle really needs to continue, it can’t be overshadowed by anything else. It needs to continue with strong support and advocacy all the way through. It can’t be overshadowed but other ones need to be on parallel tracks so hopefully they will see themselves in concert with each other as well. DW: Gotcha. DVD: All right. DW: Thank you very much. DVD: Yeah, you’re very welcome. DW, DG: We really appreciate it. DVD: It was nice to meet you both. END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/12ec7e39525f1491b4913ec11a005e7a.mp3 54534662bdc4d92bc6821d60ca1717c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Van_Doren_Doug Title A name given to the resource Doug van Doren audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doren, Doug van Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Shae Gotshall, Daniel Wolff, Derek Description An account of the resource Doug van Doren is a pastor of Plymouth United Church of Christ and he is involved with the community in a number of areas. In this interview he describes experiences of discretionary practices and prejudice toward people of color in the West Michigan area. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e28d4aff3586abd9b1fbc9e1da2f0f1.pdf 4af474baea4c664bf04cfbfb71c38fdc PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Jeanne Englehart Interviewers: Tylenda, Evan, Connor Johnson, Jason, Send, and Philip Joslyn Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/22/2012 Biography and Description Jeanne was raised in Atlanta, Michigan. She is a successful business women in the West Michigan area. She discusses how she became the successful woman that she is today. Transcript TYLENDA: We are hoping you will open up and you can talk about what you want. ENGLEHART: You must have some type of prepared questions? GROUP: Oh yeah. ENGLEHART: Just curious, how did you get my name?” GROUP: We knew we wanted to interview a successful woman in business… in Grand Rapids and we came across your name. Basically because of US Diversity we learned how women historically and today are treated differently in business and what not. So we are coming to you to get your view point on that because I’m sure you’ve dealt with that. ENGLEHART: So the premise to really how women how women are treated differently? TYLENDA: Yeah and see maybe any obstacles you have overcome and maybe different viewpoints, if men have treated you differently because you are a women and what not. We will also want some background information and we can go from there. ENGLEHART: It’s probably easier if you just started asking me questions other than ….. GROUP: Give us a detail background not real detail but outline of how and where you grew up. Head into how and when you knew you wanted to start your own business and just kind of transition us into that, college maybe. ENGLEHART: Well actually I grew up in Atlanta, Michigan, which is up in northern Lower Michigan in a small town that graduated 52 kids. That shows you how big it was. A lot of them are Engleharts, so just a large family and very very poor family……. It was not… we had 5 kids and a father who was disabled so it wasn’t a family that was education was important and a family that had the means to provide education. At some point I think I just decided it was… I needed to get out of there. So……I …..How do I Page 1 �start? There’s a really good, should of brought it for you, There’s a really good article that was in the Grand Rapids press about my life. That will give you a wealth of detail that I will be repeating. That will probably be really helpful and would put a lot of things into context for you, but … I kind of ended up in Grand Rapids in 1980 -81. And I came to work at, there used to be a store called computer land over on 28th street and they sold computers, they sold apple they sold big old luggable Compacts. They decided they wanted to offer classes for the customers that bought computers and I happened to be standing in line with the general manager of the store; I didn’t know him at the time. It was an IBM meeting and told me they were looking for someone. At the time I was working up at Mt Pleasant at CMU and then for a company called MoBark Industries. I thought oh gee why not that would be kind of fun to try that. So we moved to Grand Rapids… Sorry I have really bad allergies at this time of the year; I take Zertec and get cotton mouth so I apologize if my I take sips of water. There is also a Cat here at the school and I am allergic to cats, so it’s a double whammy. GROUP: We saw that. ENGLEHART: Oh yeah, it’s a big ole ally cat that the kids adopted. Of course it knows I don’t like it so it comes and finds me… Anyway, I had taken a job at CMU and was working there and then took a different job working for this company called MoBark industries. They were offering me different positions as I learned more about computers. JOHNSON: So that’s how you got to learn about computers? ENGLEHART: Well it was a lot of word processing back then, so I was heading up to the word processing area. TYLENDA: That’s back when you had the punch cards? ENGLEHART: Yeah, oh yeah and the tapes that ran through it. Yeah long time ago. So I took the job and once I was at Computer Land and I was working there for a year or two I thought how it was interesting that people would think, since you were part of a retail store that we were trying to sell them something instead of just educate them. So I noticed this funny little niche for someone who doesn’t sell anything but really knows how to use computers for business applications. So it’s just like this little hybrid piece that I kept thinking I know how to use a computer to increase people’s business efficiencies but they sometimes didn’t believe it because you’re working at a retail store. So I thought, well, there might be a business here. So I went and decided that I would try and start my own business. So I borrowed 5000 on my credit card and started a business. I didn’t go to the bank because I knew I didn’t have anything that anybody would loan against. So I can’t say I was ever discriminated against when it came to banking because I don’t think they would of lent the money to a man either. It wasn’t a female issue at that point. You don’t have to collateral you don’t get the loan. So that’s the way it usually it works and that was 1985. TYLENDA: Did you maybe have anybody telling you it might not of been a good idea or persuading you to do something else in regards to opening the business? ENGLEHART: Well it was my decision, at the time I was still doing work for Computer Land and I was doing work for Grand Rapids Junior college. So I had 2 different income streams and I went to the president at the community college and said I really wanted to do this because again people wouldn’t come to the college to teach them business because they thought you were going to teach them academics. So there was this competing interest. Are you retail or academic? Well I was neither. I’m in Page 2 �the middle. And so I went to him and said I want to do this, I want a sabbatical. I wanted a fallback position if it didn’t work. So he gave me a year to come back. So in part people say you must have been a big risk taker. I guess I didn’t see it as a risk. It was in hindsight. I almost had something I could go back to if it didn’t work. And so I found through Grand Valley, they used to have a computer lab for over flow of obstruction that was down on Division and Fountain. That was a building down on the corner. I don’t think they even own it anymore. They had a computer lab down there and so I worked out an agreement with them that I could use that computer lab for my classes. I started my business and I had a little office right there next to the Grand Valley space and I shared the Grand Valley admin who was part of the lab there. They were gracious enough to let me have a year to pay the rent. In exchange for me helping them maintain their computer lab and helping them with some of the stuff they needed. So it allowed me to have some time to not have to pay rent…It was kind of a unique situation. TYLENDA: Was there a time when you thought your business would not be successful and when did you truly start seeing it grow? ENGLEHART: Well I truly think there are always points when you think it’s not going to work and what was I thinking. I probably, yeah at least one time when I took a project on and then after I got into it I realized the way I had quoted it was wrong. I was losing my shirt on it. But you have to do it. You have to do what you say you’re going to do. It’s a big small town and word gets out very quick and so people were coming to me because of my reputation and my name so it was really important. I mean the company was Englehart training so it wasn’t too hard to figure out who owned it. So that was just a nice way for me to be able to, had to be able to do what I said I was going to do. Grand Valley was nice enough to help me with that. So it was a nice Segway for me, were I really started seeing that it was really going to take off. I always thought it was going to be successful but thought it had limited potential. Because once people are trained then what do they need? I wasn’t seeing how many upgrades, how many upgrades in the software industry. This was before Microsoft, this was back when teaching people Vizocal and WordStar was the word processor. This was before office. So I was doing a lot of training on these products and every time they had an upgrade then people had to be trained. So there were a lot of companies that came to me to do their training for employees. So this wasn’t onesy twosy people coming in. I did have public classes that were published but the majority of my business was corporate work so. JOHNSON: How did you stay up on your training with the changes? ENGLEHART: I would go to the different software companies. I did spend a lot of time in Utah with WordPerfect doing stuff and with Novell spent a lot of time with Microsoft when it became more popular. We became Microsoft Certified. That was the only way to get training was to spend time with the manufacturer. So that was always part of what I had to do. If I didn’t have the expertise I found people who did have it and contract with them. Especially in the areas of networking and open systems architecture, those were beyond my capabilities so I found people I could hire on a contract basis and put together a plan where we could split the profits. He was happy I was happy. TYLENDA: So how long did that go for? How long were you…? ENGLEHART: Oh gosh, well I was in the grand valley building for only a year. The business I sold the business 13 years later. And by then I had owned and built my own building. I had 52 employees and it was part of a franchise and system that I helped start. IT kind of grew really fast. There were a couple interim offices in Detroit. If you go to the lake shore and you go past Fruitridge and 3 mile there’s a Page 3 �building with a pyramid…it’s all glass to the top, that’s the building I built. So I sold the building and the business and then the tech market tanked. ENGLEHART: That was db luck, totally db luck *Continues to laugh* so it grew I think because it just, people again trusted that you can’t be all things to all people but you find people who can. So I was really big on finding the right people and again bring that level of expertise in. Even though it might have been a cost that I couldn’t afford like with those being Novell and Microsoft certification for networks. That’s a totally different animal then teaching people word processing. I had an arrangement with the experts that we split the profits. People would come in for that name because they had all the certifications. It was a really good way to build the business. Those are the cash cows, 5 days and $3000 classes. Those are the systems that engineers need constant training….. And so I figured it was just time to sell. TYLENDA: So is part of that still around today? ENGLEHART: The company I sold to well at the time it was known as Productivity Point International. Which is a, it’s a… TYLENDA: Subserr... ENGLEHART: No. Well it’s actually started by, a group called Knowledge Universe, but anyway. They bought. There were a hundred and some franchises by the time… TYLENDA: Wow. ENGLEHART: I sold and there was 8 individuals who started that franchise. So I was one of the people that started it. So when we sold, it was Chicago, San Francisco, New York, Austin Texas, Me, little old Grand Rapids, and who were the other ones? I can’t remember. But, so those are the ones they bought and then they didn’t do a very good job managing them. TYLENDA: Yeah. ENGLEHART: So, then again the market, the tech market just tanked. So, it’s one of those things, it was the right time for me. I was ready to do something else. I think I’m a serial entrepreneur. ENGLEHART: I have to be doing something different. TYLENDA: So, what is it that made you want to sell the businesses? Then what did you move on to? ENGLEHART: Well what made me want to sell it was the right price. I mean… It’s pretty... the greatest thing. ENGLEHART: It’s pretty basic when someone says, “Here’s a check.” And so it was money. It was also the fact that I was kind of bored with it. I was just kind of tired of doing it. My kids were grown and I thought well maybe it’s time to do that. And, with any business that grows that fast, you’re highly leveraged. I mean you have a lot of debt. You can’t grow a business that fast without having a lot of debt. So some of it is the attraction of not only getting a check, your debts getting paid off. So, how tuff is that? I just thought, well I’ll just go play with my grandkids for a while. I had no intention of doing anything. I left and it was June ’97, I think June ’97, and I, people know, and , when you’re available. Page 4 �And, Congressman Ehlers called me and asked me if I would consider working as his District Director doing some work for him. And I said, I love you Vern, but I hate politics. Why would I do that? And what he really wanted was me to do relations person. Someone who knew the people and the community and had credibility that could represent him in meetings and could really be his eyes and ears on the ground and help him with that outreach that all congressmen have to have because he was in Washington. ENGLEHART:’s Phone Rings ENGLEHART: Sorry, I should turn my phone off. Group Laughter ENGLEHART: So I just said... Told him I would do it and I did it for… I loved it. It was actually a great job. Because I reported to, the chief of staff in Washington, but I was worked here in the federal building. And there was staff here in the federal building that did things like immigration and social security and lots of casework, but my job was really out in the community. So, I didn’t have casework in the same way. It was a great job; I loved it. And then I was there five and a have years. And , someone asked me to apply for the CEO of the chamber of Commerce position. And I thought, hmmm. Do I really want to work that hard or not? And it was the national search and I thought what the heck? So threw my hat in the ring because I just loved what the chamber did. And just, ? They got it down to 30 people, and then they had 10, and then they had 6. And I said I think better tell Vern because somehow, somehow somebody’s going to tell him. Even though they had kept it very quite. So and when they selected me for the position. So, I did that. I took that job in January of 2005. TYLENDA: Okay. ENGLEHART: And stayed seven and a half years. I retired this past April. A year ago April from the chamber. And I was retired for four months and they called and asked me if I would help with the school. TYLENDA: Sounds like you’re trying to get out. ENGLEHART: I am. TYLENDA: And they’re just trying, trying to come back to you. ENGLEHART: I’m done. I’m done. No, they bought this building. Educational everything, great teachers and principle, etc. They uh, but they purchased a building. They had a half million dollar building that all of the sudden they had to pay for. It was a different skill set they needed someone with some operations skills and someone that could help them really put all of the business practices in place so that they could be sustainable. So I gave them a six-month contract to do that. I’m in month seven and I am done. Next week is my last week. ENGLEHART: So, yeah. No, I did what they needed. So... Helped them launch a capital campaign so they can start getting some money. They, they want to build an early childhood center. So… TYLENDA: Okay. Page 5 �ENGLEHART: So. Just. Than I am officially retired. ENGLEHART: Truly. JOHNSON: So, I don’t mean to like back track, but during all of this, when, when did you have your children? And how was that? How was parenting and like owning a business? ENGLEHART: Not easy. JOHNSON: How did that work? ENGLEHART: Well I had my children, let’s see. They’re now, I’m trying to think. They were not... I’m trying to think if they... When I lived in Mt. Pleasant, they were with me, I was divorced at the time. And they were with me in Mt. Pleasant. So I didn’t have the kind of job that was real strenuous. I worked at the college and was a secretary for one of the departments. And I am one of those horrible examples of someone who does not have a college degree. Went a long way on street smarts, but probably one of my biggest regrets. But it just didn’t happen. It didn’t happen for lots of reasons. And so, I kind of… My kids were part of the equation. Then they went to live with their dad for a while. And then they came back to live with me. So they were sort of in and out of the picture. By the time I started my business the oldest one was living with me and the youngest one was living with his father. So I only had, I was only single parent to one at that time. But early on I was, had them both. So they were… It was a challenge. Very much a challenge. But… TYLENDA: So you went into the Chamber of Commerce. What did that, what was kind of your job description? What would you do for that? ENGLEHART: Well, the chamber has 3,000 business members. And so the job was really to, , have services and programs and, and keep the members happy, ? Very strong political aspect to it. We had an office in Lansing. So, I was registered lobbyist. I did a lot of lobbying, which wasn’t my favorite part of the job. I spent a lot of time meeting with the businesses to find out what they needed and how we could help them be more successful. This, the Grand Rapids chamber is one of the 25 largest chambers in the United States. It’s a very large chamber. So we had, there was a lot of programs. We had our, our diversity initiatives, which were very unique in the country. And so we did a lot of work with them. Business that had an interest in how can diversity help your bottom line. We did, started to do a lot of work with sustainability while I was there with Norm Christopher at Grand Valley, who worked with me. So we set up a whole sustainability program so that people could find out more about how they could, their triple bottom line could be affected by sustainability. So the chamber is just always moving target. The job is to meet the needs of the members. Whatever it might be. And they’ll call you when they’re upset with the city commissioner because their sewer problem, or they’ll call you when they’re mad at the governor. So, it’s just a very wide range and so we would advocate on their behalf and try to help them solve their problems. So it’s just, it was, I mean it’s a management job. I mean, that’s what you do. You’re managing people and you’re managing resources. But it’s also very much a public position. You go to a lot of events and represent the chamber. I said if I never have to go to another black tie event in my life, I would be perfectly happy. Perfectly happy. JOHNSON: So now you said you didn’t, you regret not going to college. But yet, you still made it this far. Like how… Do you think that was easy or it’s possible for anybody? Page 6 �ENGLEHART: No. No, not any more. I don’t think so. I think that was probably the time, the era. I think it’s also that as I built my reputation, it became less important to someone where I was education than it was the results they could see that were proven. So, one thing I’ve never been is, never been dishonest about it. I mean, from day, everybody that I would never apply for a job or say, without telling someone. if this is what you want, I don’t have that master’s degree you’re looking for on the piece of paper. So, don’t waste your time, if this is important. So I guess it’s one of those things, now I don’t think you could do that. I don’t think you’d even get your foot in the door. But because again I think it is such a big-small town and I had done so much and I think I could do it because I was so well known. And that’s the bottom line. I don’t think you could do that anymore because people wouldn’t even give you a chance. TYLENDA: Now do you think you had more opportunities than anybody else did back then? Do you think you kind of, or things just kind of fell in place and you almost got lucky? ENGLEHART: No, I made the opportunities. They didn’t fall in my lap. Nooo, no. I think I had a lot of opportunities, but I think it’s because I was always looking for opportunity. I was always saying, if I’m doing this right now, what’s next? What’s next? What’s next? What’s next? And so, , if you, if you can say, gee, well if, , if we’re, if we’re teaching, , Novel was the big, , for years was the big, , operating system for networks. Well, , once you saw Microsoft make a move in that market, it didn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that you better be getting Microsoft certified because Microsoft eventually was going to knock Novel out. You, you just kind of know that. So, say well then I can see six months from now, we need to be in this niche and we need to own it. Because if we don’t own it, someone else is going to. For me, it is very, it’s probably a very competitive thing. Is that, I would look for the opportunities and say, I know if I don’t do it, someone else is going to. And how do I get there? And then I would look for the resources that could help. TYLENDA: Mhmm. ENGLEHART: So, sometimes it was using my own money, and going further in debt. And sometimes it was finding people like this company I ended up working with that did all the training. But, yea… JOHNSON: So while you were doing this, what sort of role models did you have? Who did you like look up to or want to stride for? ENGLEHART: Well, I wish I could say I had a lot of them, but I really didn’t. I think… I mean from a personal standpoint, my grandmother. But it was such a different era. I hate to say it. It was very competitive and woman weren’t always women’s best friends. I mean women were more competitive than men. I found that it was easier for me to get advice and ask a man, not to be a mentor necessarily, but ask a man to ask than it was to have a woman. Because that’s just the way it was. Because there were so few opportunities. Everybody wanted to be the queen bee, and there could only be one. And so, if you were the queen bee, they had to knock you off in order to get there. ENGLEHART: …Because there are not a lot of opportunities for women. I mean in high level. In the very highest level. There is not a lot. You look around and you see it. You look at board of directors. I'm on a board. A corporate Board. That, a paid board for a bank. But, there are very few women on those types of boards. There is not very many, Page 7 �TYLENDA: So kind of like could you give us like an example of one of those. Something like a dog eat dog situation. ENGLEHART: Well for example. Now a days they have like Infor, which is a big group for women that has 700 or 800 members. it’s all about supporting each other and supporting women. Well, they didn't have anything that was organized back then. So your support group was really those that you made friends with. AND, your friends you hoped wouldn't try to cut you. But, there was a lot of other people out there that I think would just say, well why, it’s another award. Why is she getting one more award? I don’t know if it is a jealousy factor. I don’t know. But, I felt that a lot and I think it was pretty common. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don’t have the high visibility you are not successful. (laughter) So which do you do? Do you continue? At this point in my life I am low profile. I don’t apply to do anything. They just had the 50 most influential women. I've been on it every year. This year I didn't fill out the application. I said, there are other women coming along that should take place (laughter) not me. I was the past, the future is coming, and so, but I was surprised when I saw the list. There was still a n number of women that are women like myself that are way past 60 that were on that list that I thought, well, haven’t you had enough? Do you really need to have your name on one more thing? I mean I guess I'm at a different point. TYLENDA: So you're more humble ENGLEHART: I just don’t care, it’s not important to me anymore. It's really not. I think at some point I just said I need to have my own sense of worth and it can’t come from a plaque on the wall. (laugh) It has to come from spending time with my 6 grandkids. Being with my husband once and a while. The price you pay for some of the success I had is the... it’s tough on your family, it’s tough. And I remember when my oldest son was in high school and I had started my business and it wasn't too old at the time. He was in sports. I remember going to track meets in my heels to watch him race. All these mothers looking at me. I’m like, I had to run in there and watch him run then I had to go back to work. Because I didn't have the luxury to be on the PTA and to help with the school functions. I had to work. So, they paid the price. I said, it’s time for me to change that. TYLENDA: So do you think you really did miss out on some of the important times back then? Like with your kids. ENGLEHART: OH absolutely. There’s no doubt. I mean you can’t do it all. You think you can. At some point you think you can. back in the 60's we were told we could to it all. So we try to do it all. You sort of find out at some point, you can but at what price. TYLENDA: So is that why you transitioned to this job? Because you feel like it’s a lot more fulfilling? ENGLEHART: No. I am doing this for them. I gave them 6 months. I am really kind of doing it. I am getting paid but I am doing it as a favor to some of the people on the board that I knew. They called me and said would you help. I am not looking for, I wasn't looking for a job and I am not looking for one now. TYLENDA: Don’t worry we're not hiring. ENGLEHART: Well my husband is 69 and he is a retired math teacher so he is at an age too that we are kind of saying, if we are going to travel and do some things now is the time to do it if we don't do it Page 8 �now... and the grand kids are in lots of different states. SO, its time. Summer is coming. Can’t wait to be off for the summer right. JOHNSON: So, when you were working at the Chamber, what sort of atmosphere was it like. Because you said there weren’t a lot of opportunities for women. So did you deal mainly with men a lot? ENGLEHART: When I said there weren't opportunities for women I wasn't referring just to the chamber GROUP: right, right... ENGLEHART: I was referring to corporate America. There weren't a lot of women in those high, high leadership positions. So yeah, I mean. When I would go into a meeting of the "business leaders", Whatever that means , in west Michigan. It’s a bunch of white guys sitting around a table. I mean let’s face it. It is what it is. I don’t know that it is a whole lot different now. So yeah I had to deal with mostly, from a leadership standpoint mostly men. TYLENDA: So did you ever see that you were kind of discriminated against? In the sense that if you did speak up your word wasn't as valuable as a male counterparts to yours. Do you have one good example? ENGLEHART: I think from a political standpoint, , when you're sitting in meetings and there are let’s say 12 business leaders around the table and the governor is there. And you are talking about political issues; there is always a tendency, not saying with this governor, I’m just saying that there is always a tendency to look at the man for answers. Or, I won’t use the governor I think I would probably use a senator or someone from the state house. I wouldn't say the governor. You just see that there is always this tendency that when a question is asked they will turn and say, well what do you think? They will turn to men. And at some point I feel like I have to raise my hand, like a little kid and say, the chamber's opinion is... so I would have to insert myself. But I would say that it was mostly, I think it was mostly political. I can't think where it was a big issue otherwise. I just think it was, just the nature of politicians. It’s a good ole boys network. I mean, that’s what it is. I mean chambers are good ole boy networks. There aren't a lot of women that are CEO's of chambers this size. There are more now. I was the first female CEO they ever had at the chamber. I was the first one. So that tells you something, 120 years it took them to get a woman CEO and then they went back to a white man after me. (Laughter) it’s a good ole boys network. Big-time! So... ENGLEHART: And I think that you think differently and you make decisions differently as a woman. And sometimes Men, that was very difficult for them to understand why would I make this decision? I know one that comes to my mind was the decision that I had to make that had to do with (pause...UH) it was for small market reform which was an insurance issue. And I was. The majority of our members that would have benefited from our supporting this legislation. But I knew that spectr hospital was opposed This is where I probably should have remained anonymous - I knew they were very opposed. And I, the decision, finally. Somebody had to finally make the decision and I made the decision in the interest of our members. Which 80% of those 3,000 members are small businesses. . With less than 10 employees. This was important. Well, I mean, you can imagine the stuff rain down on me big time. That I didn't support, the big dog on the hill. So, to this day there’s, I mean, he would, he wanted my neck, he wanted my job. He was adamant I was going to be fired. But he didn't get me fired... But. . That’s the kind of thing I'm not sure, I’m not sure how. I don’t know how a man would have responded. I just, my sense would have been that they might have caved into the good ole boys pressure. Page 9 �TYLENDA: Especially what you see today too. ENGLEHART: That’s just my, that’s my guess. Not based on anything. Just based on my observation of how, mm, how much pressure these guys can put on people. It's relentless. And I think as a woman you kind of go (hmmm) OK. Been there done that. Had babies. Can’t put pressure on me. (laughter) TYLENDA: So a woman's intuitions... ENGLEHART: Well I think it’s having the interest in the bigger picture. Having an interest in. (trails off) This isn't about, my reputation or about whether I'm the one that’s going to get slammed for making this decision, this is really about what is best for everyone. That’s a tough, tough job to have. Because there is a lot of pressure. So yeah. JOHNSON: So now that you are like, past that you say (inaudible), who do you surround yourself with? What kind of people do you want in your life to... ENGLEHART: Hmmm well I have a group of women friend that are... we used to tap dance together many many years ago. And the tappers are probably from a women’s friend group there is still 10 of us that get together every couple of months and drink wine, eat and drink more wine. So that group I surround myself with those. I surround myself I think with family more. m I have a, my youngest son is disabled. He had a stroke at 29 and he is paralyzed on one side and he can’t speak so I spend time. He's not living with us but I spend a lot of time with those kinds of issues. My oldest grandson lives here in town. He'll be 16 (sigh) and he's driving. So, I just spend a lot of time with, the grandkids and stuff. Because that is positive energy. And I can still make an impact. I can still help them with what they're going through. I don’t know, so, it’s pretty simple these days. I don’t do anything too exciting (laughter). TYLENDA: So would you say... What are you r biggest regrets throughout your whole life? You talked about not spending enough time with your kids, or anything else. Name something you wish you would have done differently. Maybe pursued a different area... ENGLEHART: I mean I certainly regret that I didn’t finish college. That is an obvious one. But mm, I think probably, regret that I, my personality is such that I'm very mm, I'm very focused. And so there's a good aspect to that and there's a bad aspect to that. . The good thing is, is when I am focused on something it is going to get done. I am very good at compartmentalizing and getting it done. The bad news is, is that when I am that focused there are a lot of other things that are going on that I am not paying attention too. Whether that’s is personal friendship that I have lapsed because I haven’t spent enough time. It's a two way street if you want to have friends you have to reach out now and then. It can’t always be the other way. So there’s some of that I regret that I haven’t, I haven’t done a really good job of keeping up with my friends. JOHNSON: So if you were going to give advice to somebody that might be like living in a small-town or having a poor family that wants to become successful what would you tell them? ENGLEHART: Don’t do what I did. (Laughter) mm... (Thinking) I would just say don’t take no for an answer. part of what has gotten me here is, if someone said no, I just figured out another way to do it. . I'm very determined and so I’m also very stubborn. So if somebody would tell me no, it would just, I was just that much more determined to prove them wrong. , and so it’s like just because one person says no or puts up a road block doesn’t mean you can find another way to drive around it and you have to be Page 10 �creative sometimes to drive around it. But you also have to be honest, you have to be ethical, all those things that are really core values I think. If what your core values are and you stick with your core values you will be successful Its just determining I think saying how far you want to push the rock uphill. Some people don’t have the personality that, that they want to keep pushing. I mean I had a family of 5 and all my brothers and sisters still live up in northern Michigan. Not one of them ever left. One has at least gone on to college and came back. Bu they all live there and they are all happy in this little isolated world. Here I would go nuts. But, their kids. they had their kids and their kids went away to college and came back and lived there. I mean its nuts. It’s like O.K. (laughter) To me that wouldn’t be, something I would be very good at, but they're happy. So I guess it’s all in knowing what you want to do. I just knew that I wanted to be someplace else and that I wanted to be. I knew I wanted to be in a city. I didn’t want to be in a town. . And to me Grand Rapids was a huge city. It’s like WOW. And then you go to New York or Chicago and you come back to Grand Rapids and you go this really is a small town. ENGLEHART: But, their kids, they have their kids and their kids went away to college and came back and lived there. I mean its nuts. It’s like to me that would be something that I’d be very good at but their happy so I guess its knowing what are doing what you want to do. I mean I just knew I that I wanted to be someplace else and that I wanted to be, I knew I wanted to be in a city, I didn’t want to be in a town and to me Grand Rapids was a huge city : but wow then you, you go to New York or Chicago and you come back to Grand Rapids you go this really is a small town...but I think that I just knew that I wanted to do something different I did not want to be, I didn’t want to be in Atlanta, Michigan the rest of my life. I was absolutely sure of that. TYLENDA: So I mean do we have any other questions? JOHNSON: Yeah how, what’s time like? TYLENDA: We got about fifty minutes I’d say. Jason: 46...yeah. ENGLEHART: We can finish early...hahaha. TYLENDA: Yeah I mean that’s fine with us just hope our teacher doesn’t get mad at us. ENGLEHART: Oh I see, ok. GROUP: Laughter. TYLENDA: So I mean is there any, I guess if do you guys have any other questions...... Jason: Not really. TYLENDA: I mean if not is there anything else you’d kinda like to say...any last. ENGLEHART: Well I’d like to hear a little more about your project. TYLENDA: Oh ok perfect......do we have the, the consent mm. Page 11 �ENGLEHART: The consent mentions the… TYLENDA: What it, what it is JOHNSON: Its TYLENDA: The group were split up into say five groups total six, six groups total with about four in each group and what it was is we went to go look out someone in society who is kinda viewed as different and so instead of most people went to the African community, African American community maybe like a teacher professor they went to LGBT member and kind of asked ‘em their point. We kind of wanted to do something different. See how a women in business is viewed cause even today that’s still a big topic and pay… ENGLEHART: mhmm. TYLENDA: Pay differences and everything like that. So that’s where we did our research and we, we saw that the 50 influential most, most influential women in Grand Rapids and then we found your name so that’s kinda how we got here. ENGLEHART: Ok. The…the…the focus is though civil rights? TYLENDA: mmm ENGLEHART: Histories, is that western Michigan civil rights histories? TYLENDA: I mean she didn’t give us…she didn’t make it…she didn’t tie us down too much and we even asked her if this was ok and she loved the idea. ENGLEHART: hmmm k TYLENDA: of going out to you so it kind of just worked out and we just wanted to be different. ENGLEHART: Yeah...well… it is interesting when you say civil rights obviously that when I talked about the diversity initiatives, the chamber…… it brought to mind that our chamber was very abnormal. It was the only chamber in the United States that had full time staff dedicated to diversity problems, training and education programs, and it was interesting. At one point when I was very early on in my chamber tenure, there was a major company in town that came to the chamber and asked to have a meeting, so it’s… there are a couple of VP’s. He said they thought we were spending too much time on diversity. TYLENDA: Really? ENGLEHART: Initiatives and programs. TYLENDA: Geez ENGLEHART: and we should be spending more time and interest on political activities and that was what they paid their membership for and if we didn’t make some adjustments they would be cutting back on how much they donated to the chamber and they did. Page 12 �TYLENDA: Unless they changed ENGLEHART: Cause I didn’t change my mind. TYLENDA: Yeah JOHNSON: What sort of a impact did you see your diversity initiative ENGLEHART: Having? JOHNSON: Yeah ENGLEHART: Well they had this program called "Facing Racism" that is just a tremendous 12 week program and the impact I saw was that people that would say to me years after they had gone through it what a change it made in their life because it’s facilitated and it puts you...first of all the makeup of the classes are always intentional to be diverse and you learn a lot about yourself you learn a lot about other races but you learn how… you’re put in situations so how it… it’s a feeling you… TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: How someone feels and…and there’s… it’s hard to explain it…it’s a very experiential project. I’m trying to think of an example, something they do... TYLENDA: Kinda put people in that. ENGLEHART: We… they do different scenarios but then…but there’s like one they have… they’ll have extra questions like...it’s called packy or back pack. I don’t know, it’s been years since I’ve gone through it but they would a ask question and if you could answer yes then you… then you could step back or, or forward, whatever it was and then this one and they…they ask about when you go to the… if you were to walk into the office or yard you say I need a band aid I cut my finger I mean what color is the band aid? TYLENDA: Yeah...it’s true. ENGLEHART: Now they do have clear band aids and now they… TYLENDA: uh huh ENGLEHART: do have...but typically I mean it’s just those kinds of things and you think will…how would I feel if every time...ah...every…, its…it’s like one more time someone’s pointing out to me I’m different. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: I’m not the same I mean it’s those little tiny. TYLENDA: and they go Page 13 �ENGLEHART: examples TYLENDA: like some dolls stuff you look at. ENGLEHART: Exactly...exactly. TYLENDA: Cabbage Patch dolls. ENGLEHART: So, so I think that I saw that it made an impact because companies including Grand Valley have put a lot of people through these programs. I think they see it as a way to begin to educate. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: That begin to tell people that you need to be aware it’s creating that awareness. It’s creating just some of the words that you use and the phrases that you use. I mean one person said this guys in the white hat and this guys and the white hat black hat ...good guy bad guy. Well that wasn’t acceptable because if you think about it the black hat was always the negative and the black was always being associated as the negative piece. And so again those are small examples but you start to think about how you speak and you start to think the language you use and how someone else hears that and I spent a lot of time with the different groups getting to know them whether they were African American or… Bing is a good friend of me who owned Eastern Florrals so the Asian community and so just learning that other people’s viewpoint is ok its different but its ok. And then so then in the workplace the more you do that the more productive companies become because you’re more open to and more creative ideas. TYLENDA: Exactly. ENGLEHART: because if you look at the most successful companies, they are companies that have embraced diversity not just by saying we embrace diversity TYLENDA: they actually… ENGLEHART: but by actually doing it and incorporating it and having people in leadership positions that are different. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: Power and different backgrounds and whether it’s at the chamber…one of my VP’s was a lesbian woman and she was black. It’s like two strikes. TYLENDA: uh huh ENGLEHART: Haha TYLENDA: Haha ENGLEHART: Ok she’s qualified and she’s good. Page 14 �TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: but again that’s not always seen, you don’t see that very often. JOHNSON: So…so that’s like what you told the company that came to you and said that they think you shouldn’t be spending as much money on that and you’re like well its… ENGLEHART: It’s good for the community, it’s good for the bottom line of the chamber, and it’s good for Grand Rapids. JOHNSON: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: To see that not everybody’s homogeneous, not everybody is, I used to jokingly……not everybody is white, Dutch, Christian reformed TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: They’re not; look on the streets in Grand Rapids… a little different than it used to be. Now the leadership may still be… but I was a woman and I’m Jewish. I mean…so I didn’t fit in any of the categories. TYLENDA: ah huh. ENGLEHART: So TYLENDA: So did you find a lot of companies embracing it then from… ENGLEHART: They’re starting to more and more… TYLENDA: Do you? ENGLEHART: Just starting to TYLENDA: Do you see still a lot of… kinda do as we say not as we do? Where they do kind of... say there embracing it yet they still treat people ENGLEHART: I think there’s a lot of religious discrimination… TYLENDA: Really? ENGLEHART: Still. TYLENDA: mmhhmm JOHNSON: Do you think that that might be like a west Michigan thing or is that…is that everywhere? Page 15 �ENGLEHART: I think it’s more prevalent in west Michigan. I’m not…I don’t know that it’s just west Michigan but it’s certainly something that you go to a cocktail party and people always say well what church do you go to? TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: It’s just…that’s part of the vernacular. That’s part of what they say and so when people are talking and there having casual conversation that’s part of what they ask in west Michigan. It’s…what church do you go to? JOHNSON: huh ENGLEHART: And when you tell ‘em you don’t… TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: They don’t quite know what to say....well I go to Temple Emmanuelle and I’m Jewish and its down on Fulton and yeah…it…and you…and simple things like…eh , the Jewish holidays which are different than the Christian holidays. So for me I……one time there was huge meeting that was planned and nobody had asked about my calendar and it happened to be on a Passover… TYLENDA: Wow ENGLEHART: And I said I can’t be there and they said well why not and I said its Passover and I said there’s not very many days I miss but I’m go to Temple...it’s like you guys with Christmas and Easter I go. TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: A couple of ‘em I go to and tried to make light of it and they were really upset that I didn’t come. TYLENDA: hmm ENGLEHART: They didn’t understand it and I said well you didn’t ask me TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: You just assed that because I was blonde and that… that I was probably Christian well you didn’t ask so those kinds of things… I think that it’s harder for a woman…I think if a man had been in that situation… I think that they would have probably understood more. I think cause if a man said now it’s a religious holiday. TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: I have to go to the Temple I think that would have been ok because people respect that. I think with a woman it’s almost like well… you couldn’t. Page 16 �TYLENDA: Break a rule and… ENGLEHART: Yeah or I don’t know I just… it I definitely felt minimized. TYLENDA: Ok ENGLEHART: By that TYLENDA: And was that for the… was that the chamber you said? ENGLEHART: No it was a meeting that somebody had that I was supposed to go to and represent the chamber TYLENDA: Oh, ok. ENGLEHART: So it wasn’t a chamber meeting. We would have never have scheduled something on a holiday. JOHNSON: I’m curious more hearing about this Jewish church that you go to and that community. ENGLEHART: Well there’s the Jewish community in Grand Rapids. There’s actually…three...really two major temples. One is Temple Emmanuelle on Fulton right by Aquinas College TYLENDA: Oh, ok. ENGLEHART: And then there is a Ahavas Israel which is on Michigan St. which is over almost by Michigan at the beltline that far over and then there’s another one that’s called the Chabad house. And the difference is that there is reformed Jews and there’s conservative Jews… and then there’s the Chabadnics which are the ones that are the black hats and they only walk and so. TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: There is a very small group of them in Grand Rapids, but the temple I belong to is a reformed temple so people who are in the reformed Jewish community are sometimes ......intermarriages…not both…maybe not both Jewish and… its more liberal… Ahavas Israel is very conservative… on Michigan all of their services are in Hebrew. TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: A lot of the services are in Hebrew at temple Emmanuelle as well but it is much more liberal and habab and some of the more conservative temples women aren’t even allowed to sit with the men TYLENDA: Wow. ENGLEHART: It’s that it’s still very divided…so…but there’s… I don’t know…I’d say maybe…it’s really small. There’s less than a thousand families in… Page 17 �TYLENDA: Right. ENGLEHART: In west Michigan…really in Grand Rapids. TYLENDA: ah huh. ENGLEHART: So not a very big…not a very big community. TYLENDA: I mean… yeah cause I live back home, right by West Bloomfield. My cousins are Jewish so I’m really familiar. ENGLEHART: Yeah. TYLENDA: That’s a really big area. ENGLEHART: A big area. TYLENDA: yeah ENGLEHART: Yeah…here your definitely a minority... to be Jewish... its…I think there’s a lot of……again a lot of stereotypes that people have that are not accurate and… TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: So it’s also a good opportunity as visible as I have been to also educate people. TYLENDA: You’re certainly in the position to do that…that’s good. ENGLEHART: Yeah it’s been interesting...deep breath...no I don’t want a Christmas present thank you… JOHNSON: You get Christmas cards and stuff? ENGLEHART: Oh yeah, all the time. TYLENDA: aagghh ENGLEHART: Yeah I mean I’m not easily offended I just think it’s interesting because people … TYLENDA: Assess so much ENGLEHART: Well and they just…even if they know they still send your Christmas card. TYLENDA: Man. ENGLEHART: It’s like ok, whatever, hahaha. I’m on your list. Ok. JOHNSON: Alright. Well thank you so much. Page 18 �ENGLEHART: I hope you have some information and if there is anything else…I can’t think what else I could tell you my gosh. TYLENDA: That was perfect. ENGLEHART: My life is kind of like an open book. TYLENDA: We’ll certainly reference that article too you have online ENGLEHART: Yeah, I think that’s a good article to really like…aagghh...I sign here it looked like you guys are supposed to sign down here, is that right? JOHNSON: I mean I can fill that out but yeah…I just need your signature. ENGLEHART: Oh JOHNSON: And then you can keep this one ENGLEHART: oh ok JOHNSON: Is that right? TYLENDA: Yeah one of them is for her, I think. ENGLEHART: oh ok the interviewer’s name. You want my address here? TYLENDA: Ah you can just put the school if you want. ENGLEHART: No I… cause Grand Valley…I know… I get all of their… are you kidding once you give money to Grand Valley TYLENDA: You can’t get away. ENGLEHART: I’m on every one of their lists. Kind of hard to get away from Grand Valley. There the best at fundraising there is. JOHNSON: Should we now do the introduction that we kind of skipped over in the beginning? ENGLEHART: Oh JOHNSON: That we’re TYLENDA: What do you mean? JOHNSON: That we’re meeting here with… ENGLEHART: oh ha. Page 19 �JOHNSON: Jeanne Englehart at the Grand Rapids Child Discovery Center TYLENDA: And I’m Evan Tylenda. Jason: I’m Jason Send. Phil: I’m Phil Joslyn. JOHNSON: I’m Connor Johnson. TYLENDA: And that concludes our interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b4d04bd9ddba33dfe3b5cc287342370.mp3 4159a964c2d604688e02418cbd4965e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Englehart_Jeanne Title A name given to the resource Jean Englehart audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Englehart, Jean Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Evan, Tylenda Johnson, Connor Send, Jason Joslyn, Philip Description An account of the resource Jeanne was raised in Atlanta, Michigan. She is a successful business women in the West Michigan area. She discusses how she became the successful woman that she is today. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9e6f2978002bff3baeb2ae9312e1a46b.pdf 617dba204c4c1ee3672ff755b1994aec PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Robby Fischer Interviewers: Jordan Sayfie Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/10/2011 Biography and Description Robby Fischer is a Grand Valley State University Alumni. He talks about his experiences with activism in West Michigan. Transcript SAYFIE: K. My name is Jordan Sayfie and I am here today October 10, at noon, with Rob Fischer at Grand Valley downtown campus we are here to talk about your experiences with activism in West Michigan could you start by telling me a little bit about yourself, where you come from? FISCHER: Yea, I’m originally from outside of the Flint area that’s called flushing Michigan. I was raised there and I came over to Grand Valley in 2007 to start my 4 year degree. I studied liberal studies at Grand Valley. Yea and so I just finished up that degree this past spring and then over the summer I was just living in Ann Arbor, playing music and packing vegetables for a living but yea that was what the summer was and since the beginning of fall I’ve been doing a lot of work with Occupy Wall Street stuff. Starting in September I went out there. For a week and a half and upon returning from that I just moved with a lot of great people over in Muskegon and... Yeah and that’s where I’m at now. SAYFIE: Very cool. I gotta ask you a little bit more about picking vegetables, what was that? Where were you doing that? FISCHER: It was an organization, or I don’t know if it was a business or an organization or one of those in between type deals. But it’s called (inaudible) what their mission is to make local vegetables produced in the winter time. We get local vegetables and local produce from around the Ann Arbor area. .. I think most of all of it is within a 50 mile radius and we process it and by process it I don’t mean we add chemicals. I mean we cut it up and make it edible and we put it into small packages and we freeze it. It’s essentially a CSA for winter time. A CSA, being a community support of agriculture. Where people come and basically get a subscription to (inaudible) and once a month they come pick up their boxes of produce and then they have lots of frozen produce to get through the month. SAYFIE: Very cool, that’s sweet. How did you get into that? Page 1 �FISCHER: I think I found the job on craigslist actually. Yea and... It was cool because it’s all about local food and I was yea and if I’m going to be doing something to make money I might as well be doing something that kinda supports local farmers. .. And it turned out being a really fun job. I was ... yeah.. I really d the people I worked with and it was really, really repetitive stuff picking stems off of broccolis for 3 hours a day. And then spending the rest of the day shucking corn or something. It was still really fun just to get to know some people around there. SAYFIE: And that was just kind of a summer thing? FISCHER: Yeah that was just a summer thing yup. SAYFIE: Alright. How would you describe your own identity? FISCHER: Oh jeez, yeah that’s kinda a big question. I think that there are some things that play into it so go over some of the huge parts of my idea I guess. One huge part is music. I’ve been a musician for a really really long time now. Since I was a kid and I think that yeah sometimes it can be hard for me to explain it exactly where I stand on politics where I stand on activism or just try to figure out those things philosophically. And what not but I think for me, music is the way to express myself even with the uncertainties express myself in a way and say “this is me” I’m this is exactly who I am. And not have to worry about being so particulate about it and have to worry about messing it up because yeah if you’re just making music you can really mess up. Yeah so that’s always been whats really closest to me another big thing that’s always been a part of me is spirituality. I was raised in the Christian faith and all through growing up that was something that was a part of me. .. And it still is and it’s ... the way that... that faith looks with it itʼs the way that I describe it and its my doctrinal thinking or my theology has changed a whole, whole, whole lot. And it’s way different then it was when I was just a you know, in junior high or whatever. But yeah that’s something that’s still very (inaudible) it’s yeah just an acknowledgement of the spiritual realm and its importance on my life and the importance of who I am. Yeah and I think another big part of my identity is... is that I’m Paraguayan. I am from South America. .. I was adopted. This is something that growing up it didn’t mean all that much to me I kinda just didn’t think too much of it. But I guess growing up and realizing that that’s a part of who I am and that’s something that I really want to be proud of and not try and hide is the fact that I am a person of color. And the fact, the different... the different things that that means to me. For instance coming over here .. I heard about Colbus day stuff on the radio and it was .. Colbus day stuff was something I would have never thought about in grade school or whatever. But I think now that Iʼve really started to mesh and realize that the Paraguayan part is really part of who I am south American is really part of who I am. and its Colbus day and things that take on a whole different meaning where yeah I could kind of identify more with these people my ancestors who have been oppressed for hundreds and hundreds of years by colonialism and that type of thing. And yeah and just kinda being able to acknowledge that my alliances are with those people, are with my ancestors in that way. It really just brings a whole new meaning a whole new urgency to any sort of justice work that I do. And yeah so. SAYFIE: Did you, being adopted did you ever feel a disconnect from your cultural background? Page 2 �FISCHER: Yeah I think kind of subliminally I did. I think it was more just something.. where it was never really talked about so I never really, I never really was, never really thought to be identified as a person of color. I was raised by white parents; I was raised in a white culture basically. So I, I have dark skin and dark hair but I can pass as white, and so I just kinda learn to assimilate into that. It was never really discussed but I guess now what Iʼm learning recently in the last few years the importance of thinking about that and yeah holding that as a part of who I am and being proud about that. SAYFIE: Very cool, was there any particular moment growing up or now that you felt you were treated differently because of your beliefs? FISCHER: Yeah I think that.. yeah.. growing up as a Christian I kind of had a lot of Christian beliefs growing up where very main stream. Didnʼt really divert that much from mainstream Christianity but more lately more in the last 10 years or whatever Iʼve definitely had a lot of revamping of what I believe in that area. And .. yeah that can definitely start to get kind of hairy when you start to realize at least for me I see Jesus as someone whoʼs, heʼs always talking about my message is to bring the good news to the poor and he was always talking about the poor, always talking about the oppressed. .. and .. yeah just bring justice to those people and equality. And I think that once I started to realize really what that meant .. once I really started to kind of believe or kind of just started to see the social part of the Gospel a lot of Christians didnʼt to hear that. yeah it can be hard because I guess a lot of Christians Iʼve had interactions with have been “yeah yeah we should try and do stuff or whatever but we shouldnʼt question systems as they are.” We shouldn’t question things capitalism, we shouldnʼt question things global trade that’s just how it is and yea and thatʼs definitely not something that I believe. I definitely think part of my duty as a Christian or just a person is to question large systematic justices that and a lot of people really donʼt to hear that. and its also kinda hard because on the other end, my willingness to question systematic injustices and capitalism or anything has put me under a lot of people who are really counter- cultural so a lot of times around those people they donʼt really to hear about the Christian side of it. So it’s kind of a weird conundr where a lot of the time I’m around people who are “what? Youʼre not a capitalist? What are you a sinner?” and the other times Iʼm around people who are “of course capitalism sucks but youʼre a Christian what are you some sort of sell out?” so itʼs a weird thing. SAYFIE: Yeah kind of a clash of Ideas. FISCHER: Yeah sort of a clash but to me its something that winds up and Its all just one of the same things. Yeah so thatʼs kind of how my beliefs go. Thatʼs where Iʼve felt a lot of that sort of attention. Racially I haven't felt it as much because I said I was raised in a very privileged, white upbringing. Yeah.. very upper middle class, I went to a really really nice school and .. I was raised in Flushing which is a suburb of flint so a lot of times I was really isolated from the realities of Flint and so and in a lot of ways I was given many of the privileges that are associated with being white. And so, yeah so I havenʼt had to come into contact with that as much. SAYFIE: Racially?
 Page 3 �FISCHER: Racially, yeah.
 SAYFIE: So tell me a little bit more about your music. What do you play? th FISCHER: I play guitar and I, when did I start playing? I think 6 grade I got a bass guitar and yeah just kinda went from there. And at first it was just something I picked up sometimes and would kinda get bored of but then I donʼt know I started playing in bands with my friends when I was, in junior high or whatever, and then by high school thatʼs who I was and thatʼs what I cared about... Yeah and it was the type of thing where thatʼs who my type of friends ended up being, most of my friends were musicians and that was definitely something that was really a bonding force between us all, which was great. and its awesome because those are still my best friends. My friends that I made in high school Iʼm still best friends with because of that bond whenever we get together we just play music and we can .. yeah and its always that type of passion, that shared passion, there’s just.. it builds in each other because I donʼt know whenever I see my friends really putting hard work into something a music project and really an awesome CD or something that makes me want to want to push myself further and then that in turn makes my other friends want to push themselves so its something where we all are building on each other’s passion. And so yeah even if I wanted to stop playing music I couldnʼt. So.. SAYFIE: Have you been in any festivals? FISCHER: To see music?
 SAYFIE: Yeah or… FISCHER: Yeah I want to, thatʼs actually something I havenʼt really gotten to do but I really want to ... Bonaroo looked really awesome SAYFIE: I hear its really hot down there. FISCHER: Yeah yeah, or warp tour and stuff, yeah I imagine all those things are pretty hot. Thatʼs why people kept getting really dehydrated and stuff. It sounds fun. SAYFIE: Yeah so youʼve been outside of Michigan, you mentioned New York earlier. Tell me about that, what was that for? FISCHER: New York? SAYFIE: Yeah FISCHER: Ok so, new york was I went out there for occupy wall street. Which is something that I, actually my lib professor Melissa, she was one of my favorite professors in my my whole career at Grand Valley. she sent me an email of this, of this protest that was going on and she was “I think this would be right up your alley.” and its its it was a protest that was kind of being advertised by the magazine Add Busters, which is kind of a counter- cultural magazine thatʼs pretty mainstream. You can Page 4 �find it in Barnes & Noble and they just talk about a lot of really cool activism stuff thatʼs going on. anyways , they were talking about this protest September 17 to just get thousands and thousands of people into into the financial district of Wall Street and occupy the Wall Street area. And just because yeah there are so many people who are so intimately aware into how Wall Street has done terrible things to the majority of our country, while making a small minority of people really really really rich. yeah and so the idea was to kind of , capture all this passion and really vague ambition and get those people who are passionate about it to get together and have them have general assemblies areas where they can talk and discuss what what tactically would be wise and what should be demanded, what should be.. how we should go about doing that. And so, yeah so that was the idea and the date was September 17. And when I first saw that I was “oh that would be really sweet and really really fun, and Iʼm sure id meet a lot of people.” But its in New York so I probably cant or whatever and it was just one of those things where it was “I wish I could but whatever.” And then I got to thinking about it more and I was , because one of the reasons I decided I probably couldnʼt was because my job was technically going into October .. and I was man “I wish I could have been out of this job at this time because I would maybe be able to go.” SAYFIE: This was the...
 FISCHER: The vegetable job, yup. FISCHER: I was you what if I could get out of this job earlier. Or what if, because at the time , over the smer I was in Ann Arbor for music to play with my friend my friend who is a drmer. But he was going to be out of there in September anyways and so then there wasnʼt really anything tying me to Ann Arbor. I was why do I have to stay in Ann Arbor if I want to be in New York? And so then after a few days I realized it kind of hit me .. its kind of plausible that I could quit my job and go to this New York thing. So I put in a months notice of yeah Iʼm not, this is a great job but, its not plausible for me to stay here. and yeah and then a month later I was on my way to New York. me and my friend, Kat from Muskegon went out there and yeah.. that was just a really really awesome trip. We left from Friday night and I didnʼt sleep, I just drove all the way through the night and I was gunna switch up driving but I was, I have a manual car, I have a stick shift and my friend didnʼt know how to drive a stick shift so I just ended up driving all through the night and there was just so much adrenaline that I didnʼt really even think about it. And so we got there at noon on Saturday which is actually right when it started, we timed it perfectly .. and yeah and it was , when we got there, there was a few hundred people and , yeah that day it grew into a thousand or maybe two thousand people on the first day. And it was cool because it was people from all over the country. People from California, Missouri, from Idaho wherever, Washington or Oregon. Yeah and they were just all these really passionate people and so yeah the first day I was marching around the streets it was just so awesome to have all that really raw passion and then yeah we got to we got to this park which was , maybe a block away from Wall Street and we all just kind of gathered into this park and we started having this general assembly to figure out yeah to figure out who we were, what we were doing, how we were gunna go about things. and that was a hot mess it was just out of control Page 5 �SAYFIE: kind of spur of the moment. FISCHER: yeah there was just so many people that had so many things to say trying to make something orderly or comprehensible out of it which was so not gunna happen that night. .. but yeah it was really chaotic .. but we I guess we decided that we were gunna stay over night there at that park and thatʼs what we ended up doing. And yeah the first few days it was just a lot of a lot of that kind of a lot of chaos but also we started to get things done a food committee up, and we started a medics and started to get an idea on how this occupation would start to look and , yeah and we started to become more organized in our marches and stuff .. yeah and there was so many lessons to learn about how to interact with a group that size. and how to make something productive come out of a meeting with hundreds of people who are all really really passionate yeah and yeah and so .. So on Monday there was just so much to happen where do you go? On Monday we had another really big march for the opening bell and .. yeah and it was pretty crazy because this was the first time they actually let us into Wall Street and whatever because over the weekend they wouldnʼt let anyone in. but yeah since it was the opening bell on Monday they let , there were people working so they had to let people in and so we just marched right through and it was crazy! Yeah and that was the first day people had gotten arrested, or was this Sunday or Monday? I donʼt know it was one of those two days that people had actually got arrested and it was .. it was starting to get real woah this is actually something. And my friend got arrested that day, my friend Kat .. just because she was calling out for badge nbers from the police to hold them accountable so that so we could take down badge nbers to see where these cops were doing this so in court that could be brought up in our testament. It is completely legal to call out badge nbers and say what is your badge nber, who are you, blah blah blah. But the cops didnʼt that, NYPD was pointing to her saying “arrest her too.” so yeah they got her so that was kind of scary coming back from the march and being “ok, whereʼs Kat?” and then yeah and then figuring out she had gotten picked up and I had to go down to the the first precinct to get her and there was maybe five other people that had gotten arrested that day too. Just for little things most of them that day were for wearing masks. And theres a weird, weird ordinance thatʼs super outdated in NYC where you can have more than 2 people wearing masks so even a bandana over your nose if theres more than 2 people wearing that, they can get arrested for it. SAYFIE: thatʼs got to be from mafia days. FISCHER: I think it is from mafia days or its something that or something having to do with Native Americans I think it might have been a weird obscure law to keep native Americans from the city Iʼm not exactly sure what its from but its really messed up and outdated but they were using it. They were using anything that they could because we were peaceful protestors we werenʼt knocking out windows or punching anyone we were just chanting and exercising our first amendment rights and yeah they just didnʼt that so they were trying to pick us up for anything they could. .. yeah and throughout the week I just , it just kept growing. We lost a few people after the first day. Because yeah people who flew in, or people who drove long ways had to go back for work. .. so they , the first week after the nbers had died off it started kind of gradually growing again. And then the second Saturday, a week from the day that it started, was a really really crazy march where we marched 2 miles to union square in the city. Page 6 �And that day people were by that time people were saying that we were holding ground and we were getting a lot of support and we were getting bus loads of people in from Wisconsin or Michigan so that Saturday we had between a thousand or two thousand people on this march again. And that was just insane because people were so loud and riled up. We were just taking the streets yeah there was just a mass of people going down Broadway in New York. Its one of the biggest streets there is and and yeah completely stopping traffic and whatnot. And and yeah I guess we had shut down the city for the two hours we were marching and people couldnʼt really go anywhere. .. which was so awesome and was one of the most inspiring moments maybe of my life to look behind me or jp up or stand on my tip toes and see people as far as I could see, just in the streets yelling and chanting and the cops would try and set up blockades and we would just go around them or just go through them they couldnʼt stop us. it was so cool. yeah and we got to Union Square and .. there was this huge huge huge mass of people and yeah as we started to go to go back, theres just more and more, the police violence was building this entire time .. they were especially going for people with cameras cause they didnʼt want this stuff to get docented. Because if theres nobody docenting it then they can really do whatever the hell they want. yeah and so on the way back from Union Square it started to get really crazy they started to bring a lot of the orange nets to try and coral us and yeah and there was points where we were all running and it just turned into a pretty chaotic thing there was cops running with those orange nets trying to out run us and get in front of us, it was crazy. And it was actually pretty funny I want to make a note, the cop running with the orange nets was hilarious because when it got broken down and kind of disorganized, the cops kind of got really disorganized too and they didnʼt know what was going on. And so one cop would be trying to run this way with the net and the cop on the other side would be trying to run the other way with the net and it was the three stooges or something. It was so funny to see. Because you think that protestors are the only ones that get disorganized or whatever but cops definitely were too. Our march was turning a corner once and and so as our march was turning a corner they the cops were able to put one of the nets in front of, in front of the intersection. And so I was in front of the people to got blocked off and so I was standing up against this net just shouting over to our.. to the other half of our march, the march that made it through and and yeah the people that made it through were shouting back “let them through!” and yeah and we were just trying to get the cops to let us through or whatever. but they obviously werenʼt happy about that. And so this went on for a really long time and then .. and .. and eventually the cops brought in another orange barrier from the back and they enclosed 30 of us who were trying to get through. and then they were “ok, if you all arenʼt going to turn around and disperse, were just gunna arrest all of you. And were gunna start with you two.” And he pointed at me and this girl next to me because we were at the front of the orange barricade. and so yeah the cops took this girl next to me and turned her around and they were cuffing her and stuff and and they and.. as our process or our .. what we do when people get arrested is we tell our first and last name and our date of birth. So that we can be found when were in the jail. and so we can have a record on who all gets arrested and whatnot. So as they were turning this girl around in front of me I was “ok whatʼs your name?” and she was “Caitlin Banner October 20th 1988.” And they cuffed her up and hauled her away. And then they they grabbed me and spun me around and I was “Michael Fischer, 12/9/88.” Or whatever. And as I was saying that they pulled me back into the group of cops and they started going for all of the other protestors and and in this , it was pretty chaotic because as they were Page 7 �trying to arrest me, they were also, most of the cops were trying to get in and get all 30 of the people and so it was just another one of those really chaotic times and in that chaos, none of the cops really took the initiative to grab me personally so I just kind of kept my arms really close to my body and shimmied my way backwards and before I knew it I was just in a group of people, our protestors again. And so I just ran into the protestors and found some dude to switch shirts with really quick and took off my bandana and tried to make it I wasnʼt noticeable anymore. And yeah and so that was really probably one of the craziest moments for me basically getting away but I was really happy about that. SAYFIE: you werenʼt wearing handcuffs at this point? FISCHER: No, I didnʼt get cuffed, I didnʼt get cuffed yeah. But yeah then they arrested all the rest of the thirty of them. SAYFIE: Jeez. FISCHER: Yeah so anyways, that march, my friend got arrested for the second time and they held her overnight. And yeah so I, the rest of my day and most of the next day were spent trying to figure out where she was. Trying to figure out, yeah how to be support for her and yeah and they let her out the next day and we were there, and oh yeah that Saturday march I was telling you about, there was over one hundred arrests. Yeah and so after we got her out, we decided, it was Sunday when she got out and she decided it wasnʼt a good idea to risk being at the park again because around that time thereʼs a lot of buzz are the police going to raid this camp, are they not .. it was just anybodyʼs guess and so we stayed at our friends in Brooklyn that night and then we came home the next Monday we started on our way home. And yeah and its such, it was such an amazing, incredible experience because just being around such positive, inspiring people who really want, who are really passionate about making a change, even if its kind of I donʼt know, its kind of hard to know what to do. And I feel that question of what do I do? what is effective, is such a huge overwhelming question for anyone who who has any knowledge about whats going on, cause the problems are so big but its what do you do about it. And I feel the beauty of this Occupy Wall Street movement is its people who are deciding to take the first step even though they donʼt know exactly what to do, even though that is such a huge, enormous question, you can still , you donʼt have to let that question prevent you from letting you do anything. theyʼre getting together and at least trying to address it together in a productive way and in while doing that theyʼre making, theyʼre making all the right people really angry. Because I guess JP Morgan, chase bank, they just donated a huge s of money to the NYPD because theyʼre scared; they are shaking in their boots millions of dollars SAYFIE: really? And is that almost paying off the police? You know that could seem a bribe. FISCHER: Exactly, yeah I kind of reminds you of what the police are there for at least for me it tells me maybe the police arenʼt there to protect everyday citizens maybe the police are there to protect the status quo, even if its just a really unjust status quo. yeah and yeah so, it was just inspiring to see all those people weathering it out through , they wouldnʼt let us put up tents and they arrested some people for hanging up tarps and so whenever it was raining and stuff there was just people sleeping Page 8 �under tarps, using it as a big blanket. And it was so uncomfortable and a lot of sleepless nights because of stuff that. Yeah people were out there enduring it. yeah it was just really inspiring, and now, oh yeah its even more inspiring since , even since Iʼve left it hasnʼt shrunk, its grown and grown exponentially. And yeah just a week ago there was 700 people that got arrested trying to cross the Brooklyn bridge. the cops just kind of mislead them into the traffic and once they were in the traffic part, they blocked off 700 of them and arrested them. Yeah and yeah these things the cops think these are going to tear down our nbers but where as they think that thatʼs the strategy to try and break up this movement is to just try and arrest everybody. But it seems for every arrest, theres 5 more people that are “wow thatʼs insane, I need to get involved.” And so yeah thereʼs just more people now out there than there were even when I was out there. And its 3 weeks later. And now its because thereʼs all these different occupy grand rapids sprouting up or occupy lansing, these different things sprouting up all over the country. and all over the world too thereʼs things going on in Greece or Paris in sequence with stuff that is going on here. And its the Grand Rapids one just started up, this last Saturday. So that was really, really inspiring too. Because I went over to that, do you want to here something about that now? SAYFIE: Yeah, absolutely. FISCHER: Ok cool. Yeah I went over to that and , me and Kat did, and we just kind of got drug into being facilitators in the discussion because we were familiar with the process, we were familiar with how the consensus process that was used and on Wall Street which is basically a process whereby its not just a majority voting , its not just a proposal and whatever side has 51% goes with it, itʼs a consensus process so we try and get everybody to get on the same page and and so it makes it a lot harder at times. but I think that itʼs a much better process because itʼs a way to keep group cohesion. because if yeah because if 49% of the people are having to go along with something that they are really against, then youʼre gunna lose a lot of people at every decision, youʼre going to create a lot of division. But with consensus itʼs a lot different because I guess because if there are concerns, those concerns are always heard. and if there are serious concerns, those concerns are seriously addressed. So you never feel your voice is not being heard. Or you never have to feel that. And a lot of times it isnʼt a perfect process and we are all learning so a lot of times there are a ton of problems with it and but yeah they are learning experiences and it teaches you a lot about how to communicate and how to listen. And how to move through things in a non- hectically way. You have to be a leader and say this is what were going to do and itʼs figuring out whether they want to or not. Yeah so anyways, consensus is good but it can be really, really hard and so at Grand Rapids it was kind of the same thing as New York, where thereʼs just so many people, with so much passion, that trying to make something coherent out of that, was super hard. Because it was even worse because in New York I was kind of just watching and in Grand Rapids I was one of the facilitators. So if things started to get out of hand, I kind of felt it was my fault. I had to try bringing everybody back and bringing everyone back on track. And it was so hard because we would just open it up for agenda items. I made it clear, this isnʼt a rant, this isnʼt your opinion, this isnʼt what the best demand would be. This is something that you think needs to be talked about on the agenda today. and so everybody opened up and we got one, maybe two good agenda items how, where and when we should do this. And yes of course we have to talk about that. But then we started getting people that are , “Chase bank is the worst, we need to all boycott Chase bank. We need to all go over Page 9 �there and take out our funds right now. And you know what else we need to do, is our carbon footprints,” and blah blah blah. And just these huge long rants and Iʼm just what do you do with this. and so yeah just trying to make something productive out of that was just really, really hard. but there was a lot of really good passion, a lot of really good energy. And there were people, it took us so long to figure out , ʻcuz the meeting on Saturday was technically just a general assembly just to figure out when and how we would occupy. Or where we would occupy at. it took us so long to figure out those questions. But yeah and it , people stuck through it, people were really enduring it. which was awesome. It was kind of just a testament to how much people care about it. They are willing to sit through literally four, five hour long meetings in the hot sun, in Calder Plaza, with no shade. and yeah just dealing with it when it seems not productive at all, just working through it. And yeah we just ended up deciding that we were just gunna occupy now and people started to march over to the park, which is just off of Pearl St. by the river. And yeah when we finally came to consensus about the park, everyone was just screaming, so happy that we made a really productive decision. And then we had a huge long march; it wasnʼt that long really, it was just a huge, really intense march. from Calder plaza, over to the park and yeah people were just going crazy, I lost my voice totally. Which was, I got there and was “hey I canʼt talk.” Which was kind of cool now because someone else has to present it I didnʼt want to do it. SAYFIE: Yeah it must be tough organizing. FISCHER: yeah but luckily one of my good friends started facilitating after that and sheʼs a way better facilitator than I am. so I was really happy to see that. And yeah its still going to this day, thereʼs still people over there at the park. I went over last night and they have a ton of food, a ton of water and it worked totally. There was maybe thirty people when I went that were staying the night, which is really good for just Grand Rapids because there were some nights in New York where we only got down to maybe 30 to 50 people. So just to have already that many in Grand Rapids, its great so hopefully it will keep going and maybe keep getting more organized and more efficient. yeah. SAYFIE: So New York was the start of this occupy? FISCHER: New York was the start then things started to kind of branch off and build off of the moment from New York. SAYFIE: So was this the start of your involvement in this type of activism type stuff? FISCHER: No I have been doing it for a really long time before that Iʼve been, yeah kinda been interested in it ever since high school and then started doing actual kind of work regarding it mostly in college, I learned a lot about it. SAYFIE: Ok
 FISCHER: Can we pause and get something to drink? SAYFIE: Absolutely. Page 10 �[Pause] SAYFIE: Okay, tell me about, your involvement in college and the groups you were involved in... FISCHER: So it started... when I, I remember when I came to college my freshman year, I was really excited to get into Amnesty International. I was I didnʼt really even know exactly who they were, but I just kind of had a vague idea that they did stuff that I wanted to do. Yeah, so I got involved with them. And... yeah, and so I was pretty much involved with them freshman and sophomore year. Yeah, they do, they do cool stuff. It wasnʼt really my type of... it got me involved with a lot of really cool people on campus. But as far as a group goes, and what I wanted to do, it wasnʼt really exactly what I wanted to do. But they do, they still do awesome stuff. And, yeah, from those connections, I kind of I got to meet a lot of other cool people. I think one of the big, one of the big, kind of shaping factors about what I, about what I ended up doing in college was when I decided, when I found out that you could be a Liberal Studies major; which is basically create your own major. Yeah I found that out my sophomore year, and yeah and I was originally just gonna just be a religion [major], that was gonna be my emphasis, was just religion. And so yeah, I had to take LIB100 that winter semester of my fresh... of my sophomore year. I had an awesome professor named Melissa Baker- Boersma. And sheʼs actually the one that I said emailed me about the Wall Street thing and told me about that. Yeah and anyways, yeah so I got to be really good friends with Melissa. And that semester I also had a Martin Luther King Jr. class; which is definitely the most, one of the most life-changing classes that I took, too, because he was just such a conspiring figure to me. And yeah, that was definitely one of the places where I really realized the connection between my faith and social justice, and the connections between , yeah, the Christian faith and addressing systematic social problems. [pause] Yeah and just the way that he did it was such an awesome inspiring thing for me. Yeah and then the next, yeah the next year... the next year I was involved in sustainability and practice... practic with Melissa Baker-Boersma, and that was really, really awesome. That was probably one of the most shaping moments of my life, the shaping times, periods of my life because yeah that was yeah when I was really putting all the, connecting all the dots between yeah environmentalism and stuff, and also systematic injustices in capitalism, and kind of seeing how those things were really, whatʼs it called, really related. And yeah, and I got to see that on , on a theoretical level because we had been reading a lot of really awesome books, and I got to see it on a practical level because I was working with this organization called, “Our Kitchen Table,” who does a lot of works with community gardens in, and around, Grand Rapids. And yeah it was just really, it was really cool to see , in the, in theory, how power works - through books and what not – and, but also, to see how practically, what those... how power works on the ground in, in Grand Rapids; and how , and how those large, overarching injustices are perpetuated, you know, right outside our doors. And yeah ... yeah a lot of the work that “Our Kitchen Table” did is trying to get food gardens in lower income areas – places where... places where [coughing in background] there arenʼt a lot of places, a lot of grocery stores that you can necessarily just go to. [fumbles with words] so a lot of people end up getting their food from a corner store, or a liquor store. Yeah and just trying to bring healthy food systems to these , to these areas, yeah and itʼs, it was such a good experience to see how the obstacles that are, that are put in place, and the way in which, yeah the way in which businesses or [short pause] elected officials can put up barriers to these , to these achievements that we are trying to work for. [pause] [fingers Page 11 �tapping on desk] Yeah, and I think that semester I met most of the people who... I, who kind of I hung out with the rest of my college life. People over at the Bloom Collective, [cough] which is a, a radical info shop in Grand Rapids, and just kind of a, an alternative library... SAYFIE: Okay... FISCHER: ...where you get a lot of, kind of alternative media, alternative books and docentaries that are, kind of counter-cultural [JS agrees] and that are... that you wouldnʼt find in a mainstream library; because they really, theyʼre really a radical challenge to the status quo. Yeah and they, the people at the Bloom Collective do a lot of really awesome stuff. just one of the things they do is a really, really free market sometimes where you just bring stuff; people bring stuff that they... that is valuable - that they donʼt need - and can give it away for free. SAYFIE: Mhmm... FISCHER: And, so, if you want something, you can get it for free; but if you have something that somebody else would need, you can give it to them for free. So itʼs called the really, really free market. And they do a lot of really awesome classes about... ... “The History of Social Movements” is one of the classes I took there a class Iʼm taking right now is called “Radical Sustainability”, ... which is basically looking at sustainability... in a way thatʼs... more than more than just driving less, or more than just using recycled goods itʼs really looking at what are the systematic ways in which we must address , we must address , power structures... now in order to , in order to fight for a more sustainable world, and , and to demand one, rather than just kind of hoping that it will come if we do these personal lifestyle things. [phone bings in the background] , yeah, and [pause] ... yeah, so I still do a lot of work with them. SAYFIE: Very cool. FISCHER: Yeah, and then my senior year, another class that I took which was really important to me was ... [thinking] ah, it was called “Dialogue”, and there was a subtitle to it, but I forgot, I forgot what the subtitle was. Anyways, whatʼs important is it was called “Dialogue”, and the professor was Azfar Hussain, and Azfarʼs another one of the guys whoʼs just a really, really good friend of me to this day and we still chat and hang out and stuff. [voices in background] But, anyways, he was, that was just one more step in really realizing the systematic nature of a lot of these problems yeah... and... [pause] Yeah so thatʼs, those were kind of a lot of the really shaping classes that I took, or the shaping people that kind of came into my life, throughout Grand Valley. Yeah and just helped me to realize the connection between different things that I was doing on the ground because Iʼd- Iʼve, Iʼve been doing a lot of work with homeless, homeless populations over on Division [Avenue], and ... and what not, and... yeah, and working with community gardens and stuff. And I can think that these were all kind of things I was doing a lot throughout my college experience, but, as I was, as I went through, and I learned more about it, I could really learn that there was, there was a real connection between homelessness and ecological destruction. SAYFIE: Mhmm... Page 12 �FISCHER: A lot of the same forces behind the destruction of rain forests were the same forces behind the destruction of peopleʼs lives yeah, and the same forces that were causing a lot of foreclosures, and ... yeah, ... just the way that... Yeah and even [pause] itʼs also related to the prison the prison build-up how thereʼs so many people being incarcerated and the vast majority of these are people of color and itʼs just ... Yeah all these, learning that all these things are really related in in a way thatʼs, thatʼs used to perpetuate a global capitalist system, and perpetuate a system where a very small minority of people can own the vast majority of the wealth. Where yeah , the top... the richest 20-percent of the population can own 85-percent of the nationʼs wealth. And itʼs just crazy because that means 80percent of the people, the vast majority of this countryʼs population, is forced to split , basically oneand-a-half pieces of the, of the pie. And itʼs , that just doesnʼt work of course youʼre gonna get, [pause] of course youʼre going to get people living in poverty and yeah yeah, and so I guess Iʼve just really realized that a lot of the work I do is to kind of... yeah, work to take that... take down a lot of institutions take down a lot of things that are very destructive but also to create a lot of alternative systems… create a lot of alternative food systems, where... which is kind of what we are trying to do with “Our Kitchen Table.” Alternative food systems where you donʼt have to be rich in order to get healthy food; where you can just have healthy food growing behind your house creating alternative education systems, ... education systems where you are taught how to communicate, and how to relate with, not only with the people around you, but with the nature around you and thatʼs pretty diametrically opposed to our current education system, which is basically educating you how to get a job in industrial capitalism… SAYFIE: [laughs] Right... FISCHER: ...And which is basically I think the goal in which if you look around, I think a lot of people here, if you ask them why are they in college, itʼd be to get a job [Jordan agrees] yeah and so [pause] thereʼs.. yeah, everywhere you look thereʼs to do... everywhere you look thereʼs potential to create alternatives, and more, .. yeah, just beautiful opportunities to create a lot of great things yeah. Oh, and I think, one more thing that I... if Iʼm going to talk about college, one thing that I have to talk about is my senior year I took a class called “Community Working Classics,” where I basically I taught in a jail, I taught in a prison, for for a semester, and that was definitely one of the most life changing experiences, as well. just to kind of see the reality that [phone bings] the people are made to live in, in the prison. And yeah... and to, and to discuss with - what I taught was a sociology class – and, yeah, just to... to hear their, their point of views, and to realize how... to realize how much different their, their world is than than just what Iʼve seen growing up in a pretty sheltered, pretty privileged life of growing up in a suburban life coming to a college where you can really – , being around life prisoners, being around people whoʼve gone through really some of the hardest places in life – you can realize how sheltered how sheltered you can be in the suburbs, [Jordan agrees] how sheltered you can be if you have money and yeah, just to kind of broaden your horizons in that way is, itʼs the most, one of the most valuable experiences of my life [pause] yeah, so that was really important. SAYFIE: When you were teaching at the prison, did you... Page 13 �FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: I mean, did you get the sense that these people wanted to learn, or were they... FISCHER: Oh my gosh, yeah, of course yeah, I think youʼre... I think just the way that this culture treats prison is kind of out of sight, out of mind, and, [pause] and youʼre not youʼre never explicitly taught in school that prisoners are evil people, and prisoners are just unmotivated and donʼt want to learn, but these are kind of the ideas that are slowly engrained in you ... and, so, yeah a ton of people have this, have this misconception of prisoners as these mean, ugly people, who, ... who, yeah are just kind of nonmotivated or whatever, but that couldnʼt be farther from the truth. ... yeah, and ... theyʼre, yeah, just as motivated, if not more, than anyone at college. ... very, and just so knowledgeable, and so many very valuable experiences and insights that you donʼt get, and you donʼt realize if you grow up in a suburb they just have so many valuable insights to these things that Iʼve never that Iʼve never really even considered because I was never exposed to it in the way that they were especially dealing with oppression they have so many, I- I was exposed... during that time when I was having so many conversations with inmates, I was exposed to so many realities and insights regarding oppression that that were so spot on, but I never would have realized them if I hadnʼt talked to somebody who actually went through it firsthand and experienced it so, ... yeah, so presently. SAYFIE: Yeah, thatʼs incredible. FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: Back to...what was the name of the alternative library? FISCHER: Bloom Collective. SAYFIE: Bloom Collective? FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: And thatʼs in Grand Rapids? FISCHER: Yeah, and thatʼs Fourth and Davis... SAYFIE: Okay...
 FISCHER: ...I think.
 SAYFIE: Okay.
 FISCHER: I think itʼs... yeah.
 SAYFIE: What, what sort of... books or movies... Page 14 �FISCHER: They have a lot of... SAYFIE: ...Inspired you, that... FISCHER: Oh, inspired me? Sorry. SAYFIE: Yeah, yeah... FISCHER: , okay, yeah this is a good question. ... okay. One book – Iʼll, Iʼll just kind of name a few of the books – well, one of them was obviously Martin Luther King Jr.ʼs autobiography... was one of the first that was really super inspirational. ... thereʼs a book called, a book by David Edwards called “Burning All Illusions” which is kind of... it kind of just came to me at the right time when I was, ... kind of starting to, ... Itʼs kind of a hard book to explain, but this book was kind of about... yeah, burning up, burning the illusion that, that things arise out of individuals... Itʼs kind of burning an individualistʼs paradigm or losing an individualist paradigm. Because a lot of times you can think, you can get into the paradigm of oh if I, if I buy this “fair trade” coffee then thatʼs, you know, thatʼs my, thatʼs my duty to if I want to fight for social justice, then Iʼd buy “fair trade” coffee or if I want to, yeah, if I want to fight for for the environment, then Iʼd buy a, you know eco-friendly Windex, or whatever [Jordan snickers] and yeah, and itʼs so easy to be, to get trapped into this individualistʼs paradigm but yeah, I think that that book is really about realizing that these things arenʼt, these things come as a result of, of certain systems that are in place yeah, Iʼm going to talk about international capitalism, these things result in that invariably, and itʼs not, and itʼs not something that, that can be fought by just everybody individually buying their own deal it has to be, yeah, kind of addressed at a, at a more root level thereʼs an awesome quote by Henry David Thoreau, which is “There are thousands of people chopping at the branches of injustice, but only one chopping at the root.” And I think thatʼs something that, yeah, theyʼre just having to see more and more, and itʼs adjusting things at the roots yeah, because, people doing the Montgomery bus, or people during the Civil Rights era, they didnʼt they didnʼt just try and change peopleʼs individual consciousness’s and try and overturn Jim Crow that way. They, they, they knew that the institution of racism and the way that it was instituted in these laws had to be changed, and then that would result in peopleʼs consciousness’s changing. And I think that the same is really applicable today, where thereʼs a lot of people thinking that “oh, once everybodyʼs consciousness’s changes, then these laws, and these systems, will change.” But I see it, I see it the other way, where once these system change, once these systems change, once these laws and whatever changes then thatʼs, then thatʼs what changes peopleʼs consciousness’s. And Iʼm, of course, itʼs important to raise consciousness, and raise awareness, but thatʼs not the only thing. SAYFIE: Right. FISCHER: Yeah yeah because... yeah, so that was, thatʼs one, that was one book another author that was really, really influential to me was Derek Jensen he is... Derek Jensen is super, super radical, yeah, , environmental guy. And at first I started reading him because Melissa gave us this one article by him, and I was ʻThis dude is crazy.ʼ [Jordan laughs] ʻ off of his record crazy.ʼ and I was , ʻyeah, I should read Page 15 �him just because because I reading seeing what really crazy, different points of view are.ʼ , [Jordan sniffles] and then the more I read him, I was ʻwell, maybe, heʼs actually kind of rightʼ [both laugh] , because I think that yeah. Heʼs... yeah his, just really talking about addressing the the realities of the environmental situation that we face. Which theyʼre just so, so hard, and, yeah 200 species going extinct every day, and , just really terrifying, depletion of water aquifers and just the fact that our basically, most of Western civilization is built on oil, and , not only for transportation, but just for our food system to work and for our energy system to work, and this is a resource thatʼs going to run out, [Jordan laughs and softly says “I know”] really, really dang soon. And just if, if weʼre get- putting more faith in it, and it just dries up, and thatʼs really, really disastrous and yeah I think that he made me really acknowledge the problem for what it is, and yeah, and just kind of reconsider how you go about addressing it accordingly yeah, and... thereʼs a lot of really good movies that I... that, thereʼs a movie called “The Corporation”. Thereʼs a movie thatʼs called “Food, Inc.”, which is this brilliant movie. SAYFIE: Yeah... FISCHER: Itʼs all about our food system yeah Iʼm just trying to think of other good movies that I d.. thereʼs one, thereʼs one called “Blue Gold,” which is about water yeah, just about the depletion of water aquifers and whatnot, and, yeah, just how we think about how we handle our fresh water resources yeah... they have just a, just a ton of really good stuff about that. SAYFIE: Yeah, itʼs interesting.
 FISCHER: Mhmm...
 SAYFIE: Did you you ever see “The Motorcycle Diaries”? FISCHER: No, what is that? Oh, is that Che Guevara?
 SAYFIE: Yeah, yup...
 FISCHER: Nice.
 SAYFIE: Yeah itʼs, yeah itʼs very good.
 FISCHER: Yeah, thatʼs one that I did want to see, I should watch it. SAYFIE: ... [pause] so as far as “Occupy Grand Rapids” goes... FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: ...no, no arrests in Grand Rapids? FISCHER: No arrests yet. That I, not that I know of. Unless when happened maybe yesterday night, I... but yeah, no arrests. this is... Itʼs crazy. Thereʼs a small police presence thereʼs no police presence in Page 16 �Grand Rapids. SAYFIE: [laughing] Yeah... FISCHER: Because in Wall Street that was the first thing I saw before I even saw protestors, I just saw lines of cops. SAYFIE: Right, yeah, theyʼre everywhere. FISCHER: It’s in Wall Street itʼs nuts you would swear that one-in-three New Yorkers was a cop for an occupation. [Jordan laughs] , thatʼs what they did for a living. Because thereʼs so many of them; I donʼt know how they get so many [Jordan continues to laugh]. But, ... but yeah, in Grand Rapids I saw three cops on the first day... SAYFIE: Mhmm. FISCHER: The whole day so it was a really different feel. [fingers tapping on desk] SAYFIE: So what, what would you say is the overall, transpiring goal of the ʻOccupyʼ movement? FISCHER: Thatʼs... I have a... they have, theyʼve, they have come out with a statement in in New York about what their , who they are. And I wish I had it on me right now. ...[Robbieʼs phone rings] Oops. But yeah they Iʼll just kind of try to say it from what I know itʼs kind of, thatʼs kind of a hard question that weʼve been asked a lot because itʼs not something anyone, individually, can say until the whole group has consents and says, ʻyeah, this is what our goal isʼ. SAYFIE: Right, right. FISCHER: But, yeah, they did release a statement thatʼs saying, yeah that theyʼre essentially anticorporate. Theyʼre very out, people who are very outraged at just the, just the glaring injustices that are obvious and right in the face of all these people who are just suffering yeah, just the, the very vast inequality between the rich and the poor, and between the amount that the rich have and the amount that the poor donʼt have [Jordan laughs] yeah... and so, yeah, the, I think that the kind of , that part of it, the ʻwho we areʼ part has kind of been, or is the process of, being decided the goals, or the demands, I guess you could say, are still definitely in the works because yeah, there are, there is such a vastly diverse group of people who are there there are there are union people. There are teachers. There are socialists. There are anarchists there are people with all these different goals or ideas of what should happen, and and yeah I think that this is a really good idea for them, or a really good chance for them to yeah, to try and... I donʼt know, work together despite those they might have a difference about where the exact end point is, but they can take at least the first few steps together and use collective moment to get something going. SAYFIE: Right.
 Page 17 �FISCHER: Yeah, so thatʼs that. SAYFIE: How would... I know you said itʼs hard to describe your po... your political... FISCHER: Yeah...
 SAYFIE: ...ideals, but what would, I mean, what would you...
 FISCHER: Personal goals? SAYFIE: Yeah. FISCHER: I could, yeah, I could say personal goals okay, I think that... One: I think that industrial civilization that is the industrial way of life, a way of life based on oil, based on extracting resources, ... and not putting them back, is inherently unsustainable. I believe that that yeah industrial, the industrial way of life as we, as we have it right now ..with fast super highways and .. yeah.. basically where people can live in buildings and really never even have to be in nature, and where.. yeah where our food system is .. based on 1500 mile supply lines. That, I believe, is unsustainable and it will not last .. and I believe that its important that we acknowledge that it wonʼt not last, and acknowledge that .. that thatʼs not a bad thing entirely .. thereʼs a lot of pain that will come, .. when .. yeah because a lot of people are very dependent on the system the way it is .. but..... but at the same time .. yeah I guess just.. when I picture a.. a future, I picture a future in which more people are able to connect with the people around them, and the places around them, and .. and rather than .. rather than being isolated in a room watching a TV, they can be, .. yeah in a group of people because , the reality is ..community is a necessary part of survival , .. and I think that .. our.. for the last however many years.. weʼve had the.. we’ve been able to be deceived into.. into thinking that .. into thinking that you can live completely isolated, and I think that .. Things oil... have been able to create this kind of false idea of what the world is ... yeah, and I think that we just really need to... to imagine worlds... that are vastly different than that, imagine worlds where ... that are more in line with the natural processes of the seasons .. More in line with the natural processes that are around us... yeah, because in reality ... its not natural to be so isolated from... from the outside world. It’s not natural to be so... So isolated that you can basically do the same thing every day of the year, regardless of what season it is... Yeah, I was thinkinʼ about that when I was ... I don’t know... there are people who have the same job or who... who get to their job the same way every day of the year, .. And if it’s... the only difference that they notice might be , “oh I have to shovel out my driveway... for a couple days of the Year." but .. yeah a hundred years ago , you notice the season change. You notice whatʼs going on around you. You notice when its .. you notice when its a full moon. You notice when its yeah, you notice when the grasshoppers stop .. singing. You notice when the different bird calls happen. And thats just a hundred years ago.. .. if you go thousands of years ago .. thatʼs all that you notice, thats where you get your knowledge, and thats where you get .. thats where you .. thats where you live. .. and I think industry and.. oil and all of these things have allowed people to kind of .. live in a place thats not really Earth.. you can live in an internet world or a TV world .. that's completely divorced from the actual real world reality outside of your.. outside of your door. .. and its just .. an example is.. on a.. there's.. there was an .. there was a.. imagine that there was an .. an insect Page 18 �or something that came through and wiped out the ash trees .. the ash boar, a couple years ago, it d wiped out ash trees all behind my house.. and , I donʼt know, I didnʼt really notice.. but the first time that Facebook went through a format change .. people are frickinʼ up in arms about that, theyʼre “change it back right now!” And so thats just another.. thats a testament to what world people live in. they.. people are just beginning to live in this world where what matters is the format of Facebook, what matters isnʼt the 200 species that are going extinct in the actual real world.. .. and I think that yeah.. that yeah.. so i guess to s it up I think that.. that yeah we are.. we are going to be forced to live according to the laws of the real natural world, and I think the sooner we can realize that, and the sooner we can work towards that, the better. .. yeah and so thats what Iʼm trying to do with my life is to work towards.. work towards that type of living, work towards ways of living that arenʼt dependent on industrial civilization, because industrial civilization canʼt and wonʼt be .. sustainable, and it wonʼt be permanent. .. and I think that yeah..the sooner we recognize that the easier the transition will be. SAYFIE: Do you think, because it almost seems if you were to say, yaʼ know.. just let everybody conse as much, say oil, as they can until it ran out then theyʼd have this epic collapse and revert back to this.. if people didnʼt develop alternative .. Sources of transportation, and that kind of thing, then they would kind of be forced back into [a natural way of living].. FISCHER: Yeah.. yeah .. yeah so I think that.. yeah that’s definitely a good point .. which is why I donʼt put a lot of energy into looking for alternative ways to power cars.. or.. because I donʼt want there to be cars. .. .. yeah.. and I think that a lot of these things that are done in the name of sustainability, and theyʼre done with literally all the best intentions, they can really .. a lot of times be served to just distract people, and to make them think that this.. this way of life can be redeemed, and that the industrial life can be salvaged when, I believe, the reality is that it canʼt. And so I try and do in the work that I do I try and .. do things that .. that arenʼt reliant on industrial civilization, which is putting a lot of work into community gardens, .. things getting people to re-learn .... skills that have been long lost, or skills that are being overlooked by things industrial.. industrial agriculture. yeah.. because yeah its just.. I think its great when people can learn how to be.. self sufficient in that way, where they can grow food for their own family, and the families around them. .. and kind of yeah.. learn how to preserve their own food, and learn how to.. yeah how to purify water from rivers, how to.. how to do these things which, yaʼ know, hundreds of years ago, or even a hundred years ago everybody knew how to do them. .. yeah.. I just think its so valuable to re-learn those types of skills. SAYFIE: Alright, is there anything else that you want to mention? FISCHER: I think Iʼm pretty good.
 SAYFIE: Well, yeah me too. Thank you for doing this, its been very eye opening. FISCHER: Definitely. END OF INTERVIEW Page 19 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0738af0ff908e16e94063584bcc99421.mp3 b97c6c85ad181da6c97189a98b78c160 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Fischer_Robby Title A name given to the resource Robby Fischer audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fischer, Robby Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sayfie, Jordan Description An account of the resource Robby Fischer is a Grand Valley State University Alumni. He talks about his experiences with activism in West Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/089e648bc2e9e83f40c1204617b390f2.pdf 8c7a9f6075cb78ab00d822fd63e9cbde PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Anna Fisk Interviewers: Zak Johnson, Andrew Guerkink, and Peter Braseth Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/26/2012 Biography and Description Anna Fisk was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She is an advocate and activist. She discusses growing up being lesbian in a Christian household. Transcript JOHNSON: We are currently recording. GUERKINK: We are on the books. JOHNSON: Cool, forever. GUERKINK: Ok, so there are just a few things we have to get through. A little spew I have to say. So, My name is Andrew and I am here today with Anna Fisk it is February 16 the year 2012 ah and we are in grand valley's Kirkhof center here in Allendale Michigan. And we are going to talk about here experience here in West Michigan. so, could you, please, give us your full name. FISK: Ah, Anna Fisk. Anna Marie Fisk GUERKINK: And where and when were you born? FISK: I was born in Grand Rapids at Butterworth Hospital October 20th 1981. GUERKINK: And your parents, siblings, family? FISK: Names or? GUERKINK: Names, or whatever you like. FISK: My mother is Lou Ellen Fisk. My dad is Gene Fisk. Ah siblings, oldest is Kelly Fisk uh then Jeremy Fisk and then Elijah Fisk. We all have the same last name cuz of marriage and divorce reasons but [Laughter]. We're all Fisks. [Laughter] GUERKINK: And so we want to talk broadly about your experience in West Michigan, you were born here in Butterworth; I was born in St. Mary's so in West Michigan how do you define yourself? What is Page 1 �your identity? FISK: In West Michigan well, I am and advocate and activist firstly...at this point in my life anyway. I'm a lesbian. I am white I am privileged, I am working class. GUERKINK: Do you feel like, the things you described those are the things you see yourself as, in this area when people look at you do they see the same things? Do you believe that? FISK: I think they do, actually. Maybe because my hair, I like to do fun things with my hair I always have. I used to dye it all different colors when I was younger. I can't tell you how many times I’ve been called sir. Which I'm like? But throughout my life except when I had long hair but I cut it short when I was 16. And mostly it happens from people who are highly intoxicated and probably living on the street. I correct them or they see my face and they say sorry. so I think that it's kind of obvious and people are like, "she must be a lesbian." I present more masculine than feminine probably, and it’s obvious that I white and therefore privileged. I don't know if working class is all written on me, but maybe my values or something. GUERKINK: So you talk about your phase of doing things with your hair when you first cut it off. Sort of when, you are seen by other people, they say, "oh she's a different girl" cuz you like to different things with your hair. Was there a point in your life when you were like, "hey I'm totally different from others around me because I wanna cut all of my hair off and go something crazy?" FISK: Absolutely, especially coming from a rural place. I went to Tri-Counties Schools, quite rural, literally surrounded by corn fields. It's on the borders of Malcolm, Newaygo, and Kent counties so it's... I mean there were so many dirt roads when I was going to high school. so let's see, I came out when I was 16. It was during the next years or so that I cut off my hair. It was reflecting my inner feelings of feeling different. My clothing style didn't really change much. I guess you could say very tomboy. I was always athletic looking. I did start dying it really like platinum. I even shaved it a couples times when I was 17/18/19. JOHNSON: Demi Moore FISK: And that was cool back then, and I did not look cute. GUERKINK: It’s just so funny, I don't wanna get too personal but my sister did the same things, she had her phase of platinum and cut really short and its just funny because you do have those feeling inside and you wanna get them out and so i wanna stay on topic with you and go with when you were going through those phases. Were there people in your life around you who encouraged you to develop who you are and your identity and embrace the outward expression of what’s inside? FISK: No. [Laughter]. My family was and still is, I mean a little background. JOHNSON: Yeah, please I'd like to hear about it. FISK: They I grew up in the best way to describe it is Pentecostal tradition. Christian. a lot of shouting raising your hand in church a lot of worship and literally people doing like things that outsiders would come in and say, "what the hell are you doing?" right. Like, "what are you doing right now?" When I was Page 2 �little, I would sit and draw during church cuz it was like 3-4 hours long. so that was my religious upbringing. And I was actually quite involved in church. I mean we went to Pentecostal church when I was growing up and then we started going to Free Methodist Church because my mom's family went there so we wanted to be close to them or something. She also played piano also at all the churches we went to so they need pianists and so she went to the Free Methodist Church which was quite mundane compared to the Pentecostal churches. And I became quite active in the youth group there I was like a pre-teen and I was like a teenager it was very religious and I say religious because I really bought into the religion part of it. And I kinda developed by own spirituality from that also and started going to a different church called, Bella vista church by Rockford. I started going there when I was like 16. Anyway back to the original question. My family, I don't know. They didn't condone it, they said, or anything but they're very, very loving people. and my mom is very like very emotional and, (of her mother) "I'm very emotionally connected to my children, let's have a heart to heart talk and be honest with each other." And my dad actually worked 3rd shift most of my life so he was kinda absent honestly throughout most of my life I did really spend a lot of time with him he would uh work all night and then sleep all day, get up, have dinner, watch TV, take a nap, and go to work. That was it. And the weekends he was in the garage. I mean, the most he ever said to me when I first came out was, "ah, I kinda noticed you were a lesbian" I was like ok cool. "ah, ok I m gonna go work on some cars." [Laughter] and I was having my own internalized homophobia feelings and really just strugglin' and they didn't really offer to like help, necessarily, but "oh maybe you should go to therapy" because that was the only way, "go to therapy." So I could be like fixed or I could fight the desire and still have a "normal" heterosexual life. So, I mean, they weren't like were kicking me out. For a lot of teenager the coming out process you may as well, its almost better, if your parents or guardians are like, "well just leave then" because then you're leaving this place where they aren't accepting you and they're thinking things about you. GUERKINK: You know where you stand. FISK: Right. It's almost like so many things are unspoken and they're thinking so many things and there talking to each other about things. And my mom has a large family and I know she's calling every one, "Oh feel bad for me because my daughter is gay." So they were really, I mean, they knew that I was like this wacky teenager before I came out and I was always like the crazy teen out spoken and did weird things. So one time, when I did shave my head and I was a little bit older and I had actually kinda moved out but not really I was 17 it didn't really work out that well, I had shaved my head and moved back home and my dad was like, "look please don't shave you head again." [Laughter] and so I was like, "cool, ok I won't shave my head again." I mean there was really no encouragement. GUERKINK: So, no encouragement from home, but no one really discouraging you from being yourself it wasn't as if someone was telling you, "look you have to completely change who you are or else we are not going to love you." Was that, you don't paint that out to be particularity positive, but was that positive for you? At least you knew people still loved you, even if people didn't talk about it? FISK: I don't know, I mean I've struggled with it for some years. I've been out for like 14 years now and I don't know if it's like I don't know if it's worse to live with that and like almost like I condone because I am still participating and active in their lives i don't know its about love ta that point people use live as a masking of hate. to cover it up is like the white elephant. Even in general when people are commenting, "I don't care what you don you in the bedroom i still love you." Well it does matter because its not about sex it's about loving someone. It's likes saying racist doesn't exist because we love each other. And the fact that they never really did their own research or got books-and I could suggest books about being gay and being Christian and how to deal with having a gay son or daughter- when ur a Christian or Page 3 �something. Go to a PFLAG meeting or something like that, they never, no. JOHNSON: So what is your relationship like with your mom after coming out? FISK: Well m, I mean my mom and I have always been really close. I guess, we always had a lot of fun together. We'd laugh and go shopping. I was the only kid who would love to go shopping so we did that all the time. And just crack up about things and just laugh for hours on end. And that part continued, we still kinda but, there was always this tension after i came out. there still kind of is there's been some pretty good breakthroughs in the past couple of years only I think we kinda didn't talk about it much. I would try to talk about who I was dating or something and she would kinda like not really respond so it definitely strained it quit a bit. I went through so many years where I struggle with, if i should talk to my parents because maybe they're not saying, "screw you don't bring your partner home" m, I don't know it did change. GUERKINK: You talk about your deep spirituality and you talk about suggesting books to read for your parents to sort of balance your faith and your identity was that a struggle to get to get to a good place and was it a struggle to get to that point? FISK: I am in a fantastic point. GUERKINK: You seemed like it. FISK: It took me a long time and i struggle tremendously and I struggled for many years with it. Initially after I came out other than my family or she needs therapy. I, myself, put a lot of pressure to change. I did not really know what being gay meant. I was 16 I had like boyfriends but they were not sexually active. It's all for show then usually or it was when i was a teenager. Just, having my first girlfriend we were very much in love and it was about loving each other and then of course sexual discovery and we would back and forth, breaking up, getting back together, and then we have to fight our urges and still be best friends. Of course it doesn't work out like that. GUERKINK: How long was the back and forth? FISK: It was at least a year. It was quite a bit of time. And then she went to the same church that I had started going to, Bella Vista. I told her, "why are you following me? we're supposed to be separate and not do this." And then [Laughter] I got involved with the youth group there and made some friends. Disclosed to my small group that i was struggling, "my struggle" we'd pray about it and things and then I had like this, its' so weird to think about it know being so far removed from it part of myself and that community but, I went with the youth group leader and this other women and this interpreter and she went through this booklet called, "Breaking the Bondage" it like a 12 step literal; I used to have it before I-I think I burned it. You walk through this steps where you disclose stuff and it's kinda weird, they have get rid of the demonic spirits living inside of you. After I did that, it was supposed to be cured and obviously it didn't work so I kind of stopped being as active and became really angry with my first girlfriend and she was following me there, so I was like, "well I'm m not going to go there." So I started getting involved in other things teenagers do. Started to party and began to ignore my spiritual part. I remember one night, and that was when I moved out, I lived in what we called the, "drug house" in Cedar with my older friend. He got married and then his wife left him after that. We know now that he had schizophrenia, we didn't' know that at the time. So we had this little house and a bunch of us lived there and it wasn't terrible but it was bad. Everyone was like always smoking weed and I didn't really Page 4 �smoke... Andrew/JOHNSON: You did not have to, you probably had a contact high. FISK: That what I liked about it, just watch Pokeman and get super high or like, "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas." so I was living there and like a bunch of people and partying going on and I was like I don't wanna be here. So it was Thursday night and I was like, "oh, I'll go check out the youth group." It was kind of a large crowd there and you could stand in the back and blend in-or so I thought. I was standing in the back hanging out just, "strugglin'" and the youth leader, what was her name? Denise, oh by the way she works, I believe, at Mar's hill last time I checked, just an FYI. I like to call people out when I can cuz she a pretty horrible person. So, she pulls me aside, randomly found me, I was there for like 3 minutes and she taps me and starts to talk to me. So, she pulls me in this room and sits me down. All of the sudden my small group leader's there and someone else and her were like sitting around the table and I'm like, "what is going on" and she was like basically, "the pain you made us go through and all of this stuff and you put us through this stuff and your not changing and you obliviously don't have the desire to change and your negatively impacting the youth group." I was like, "First of all, I haven't been here for a while and second I'm not that important like not many people know me because I've not been there for a while." She says, "I'm not welcomed to any youth group events." I could still go to the big people church, and I was like, well, now way because no kid wants to go to that. And I was like so floored. Totally unexpected, caught off guard. I came there for refuse seeking refuge and they literally kicked me out. I mean I had to leave, they watched me leave. I got in my car and that was like as close I've ever come to just like killing myself quite frankly. It was, it highly impacted my emotional state. obviously I didn't. Andrew/Zak/BRASETH: Thankfully FISK: I just went back and to the party house and just sat there and whatever. So ya that was pivotal and then after that i didn't go to church anymore. I didn't seek fellowship with other Christians or anything kind of started to really--and I'm almost thankful for that moment because it really made me seek my own answers. JOHNSON: I'm sure you're really mad at God at this point. FISK: I was very much so like why? JOHNSON: Exactly you went back to this church to find refuge and find support and the one place you thought you'd go you saw the opposite. FISK: Yah, I was rejected and at that point I still believed in a Christian God and Jesus Christ, he's my Savior and all the principles I grew up with. But I was like I need to start doing this myself and really find the answers and forget what everyone else says... ANDREW, JOHNSON: Mhhm right FISK: But I’m like wow I need to start doing this myself and really finding these answers for myself and stop just listening to what everyone else says because that is quite ramped in the Pentecostal church to just listen to what the pastor says, and just go along with that. So I just started reading books, I found a book by Mel white, he used to write speeches and ghost write for people like Jerry Fawell actually, and Page 5 �pat Robertson and even- he’s a gay man, even after he came out he did write a couple of things for not jerry but I think maybe pat after he was out as a gay man, he's a reverend, he started a group called Soulforce, and they actually came to west Michigan a while ago, they are a non violent, direct action against spiritual violence against the LGBT community, he was like my hero for a very long time I read his book but I can’t remember the name, but it was very inspirational, and it sort of helped me to kind of look at things differently, what is this interpretation, what does this mean, obviously levitical code is all outdated it’s all old testament, so I going through the new testament, what does Paul mean, Corinthians, Romans I think people are surprised when people find out that I have a lot of knowledge about the bible and things JOHNSON: right FISK: because I don’t just readily go talking about it, so I kind of went through that phase, and then I started to get very angry with my parents and that’s when I was like I didn’t know if could talk to them, they are not listening to me they are totally rejecting me, even though they say they love me, and I can come over when ever I want, or hang out, it’s the principal of it JOHNSON: right FISK: so I went through that for quite some time, I tried not be gay a couple of times. During that time also, JOHNSON: what do you mean by that FISK: well, I tried – I know try not to be gay – [Laughter] GUERKINK: so far FISK: I was quite gay still [Laughter] but uh, trying to have a boyfriend and seeing if I could lead heterosexual life with a man. Zak right FISK: that didn’t JOHNSON: how did that make you feel when you tried to fight these – FISK: it, (exhales) it causes so much turmoil, having internalized homophobia is like talk about having a demon inside you, like having this turmoil GUERKINK: you need that 12 step program FISK: all the time, yeah, I mean just constant axiety, and rejection of your true self and covering it up, and playing roles because what they tell you, men and women have these roles, so you sort of try to be this role JOHNSON: try to make yourself fit in FISK: right, and just maybe dress more feminine, the shit the American family association tells you to do. Page 6 �JOHNSON: nuclear family, 2.3 children GUERKINK: yeah, the “bob” and a dress FISK: yeah and that lasted about 2 seconds and I was like JOHNSON: no way FISK: First of all this guy who was trying to like date was a complete asshole All: [Laughing] FISK: So and I actually knew him from Bellavista, and we like met somewhere at like Mars Hill or something. Cause I went to Mars hill for like 2.2 seconds. JOHNSON: A hot second GUERKINK: [Laughing] FISK: And actually I believe they are moving towards being an affirming church anyway, even though the Devo’s go there, or did, anyway, that’s a side note JOHNSON: Yeah, I read the Time article about Rob Bliss, he is very interesting FISK: Yeah, yeah he is, anyway I went there for like a hot second and I saw this guy and I was was like “oh this must be like divine intervention” [Laughter]. And so we like, we went to this Joyce Meyer conference together. And GUERKINK: Sighs JOHNSON: Who is Joyce Meyers? FISK: She a televangelist, basically, huge, huge, like worldwide following, and she’s a pretty funny lady, she’s southern, she has an accent, she has funny stories, and she’s really like quirky and people like her. She talks about abuse a lot so a lot of people can relate to her or something, or like overcoming an obstacle. And there was and I still really liked worship music, just because I still like music in general JOHNSON: Its good music FISK: Ah, the group from Australia, ah, can’t think of it know, anyway this woman Darlene Check, who wrote “Shout to The Lord” big in the 90’s, her group, her worship group was there and that was the only reason I wanted to go. So I was like oh sweet concert. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: [Laughs] FISK: Anyway and him and I went and by the end of that trip I was like “eff you, you suck”. JOHNSON: [Laughing] Wow Page 7 �GUERKINK: [Laughing] FISK: It was my birthday too. And he was just a complete asshole GUERKINK: Oh, awesome. JOHNSON: Sweet FISK: And then we had a conversation in my living room and he, well somehow we were kind of talking about sex, and he was like “oh yeah, well if you didn’t want to I would expect something else ya know”. And I was like well that ain’t happening. So see ya JOHNSON: Hooooo! sounds like a nice fellow FISK: Yeah he’s a great guy, great Christian guy GUERKINK: Yeah he sounds solid, not to judge your character. All: [Laughing] FISK: Anyway I didn’t have sex with him, he didn’t get what he was going for. Eventually I found out that [sex] was basically his motive. GUERKINK: Wow FISK: And after all that happened, I was like ok, I’m seriously super gay here All:[Laughing] FISK: Let’s just like get on with it, then I really started to go into the acceptance process I think JOHNSON: How long did that take, you came out when you were 16? FISK: Right JOHNSON: And you went through out these pretty formative years that were like, “maybe I’m not gay, maybe I can try and not be gay, but well no I am gay”. So what type of span in years are we talking to you finally saying “I’m gay, I love it, and I’m gonna go with it”? FISK: Let’s see (long pause), probably until maybe I was 23? I think JOHNSON: Took a while FISK: So quite a while, of back and forth JOHNSON: So 7 years GUERKINK: It’s not that long. Page 8 �FISK: Yeah it’s, yeah, having dysfunctional relationships because of it and that after I started really having meaningful, functional, long lasting relationships after that as well. JOHNSON: Great BRASETH: Could you tell me a little bit more about your childhood, just not specifically anything, but just general things you would like to talk about. FISK: Yeah, let’s see, well I grew up in a rural area, I loved where I lived it was a small town in the 80’s and you could run up to the party store, I would just run over there. You could run around without having fearing that something is going to happen to you. Ride your bikes all over town and go places. I really enjoyed my childhood and my friends. And then we moved to Grand Rapids for about a year and a half when I was in like third grade and fourth grade? I did not do well at all. JOHNSON: No? Big change FISK: Not at all, I became like severely depressed, missed like tons of school, they couldn’t figure out what was wrong with me, like my stomach hurt all the time. And eventually they took me to a psychiatrist or something and tried to give me medication but I would, I didn’t really eat that much so I would just like throw it up because it would upset my stomach. Apparently I found out later that my parents were having a really rough time as well, in their marriage. So like all this horrible shit happened when we moved to Grand Rapids so promptly moved back GUERKINK: [Laughing] JOHNSON: [Laughing] FISK: But we moved like out in the country as opposed to moving in town and I was like “oh this is great I’m going to be better here this is a great place”. And so, I had a fantastic time at that house it was a like an old school house JOHNSON: Cool FISK: We had friends that had horses JOHNSON: Nice FISK: It was a really good experience; I think my childhood for the most part. BRASETH: Could you tell me more about your family, not necessarily your parents but siblings anyone else you were close to. FISK: Yeah, I’m the youngest of 4. GUERKINK: hmph (sigh) FISK: My sister is like 11 or 12 years older than I am and then my brother Jeremy is a year younger than her. And then my brother Elijah and I are 3 years apart. so the dynamics were kind of weird. JOHNSON: Two and two Page 9 �FISK: My sister got stuck babysitting us a lot which she apparently resented JOHNSON: Mhmm FISK: Which she hated, she, she was quite rebellious, and got pregnant when she was 15 and had her first child when she was 16 and I was like 5 so my niece and I are like 5 years apart which kind of cool JOHNSON: That’s crazy FISK: Because I never had a younger sibling JOHNSON: Yeah that’s awesome FISK: Yeah well she ended up marrying the man of that child and he was extremely abusive to her so, they had another child, a few years later or something and she basically lived through hell and finally when he nearly choked her to death she finally left him JOHNSON: Thank God! FISK: Yeah and she came to live with us after that, her and this kids which was great, I loved it I loved having my niece and nephew around and I would babysit them, I was babysitting them when I was like 9 JOHNSON: Wow your grew up fast FISK: We were all very close, so they lived with us and that was great, especially because my dad worked third shift and my mom was always quite lonely so she, we just loved it. So it was my sister her to children, myself and my brother Elijah who was in high school at the time and my parents that lived in the house. My brother was signed up to go to the all night like basketball thing at the youth group JOHNSON: Like a lock in FISK: Yeah, a lock in and my sister volunteered to take him, it was like 10 or 11 at night, to go meet up with his friends and it was around Christmas time, she was going to bring him and come back and then we were all going to wrap like presents so my mom and I were getting the little kids in bed and are like popping popcorn. And all the sudden we get a phone call. Apparently on their way, they drove, or like a truck with those big headlights on top of it GUERKINK: Mhmm FISK: Had the headlights on and she was like messing with the radio and when she looked up she was blinded and spun off into the ditch and hit a tree. Luckily she like flew out of the door. It was a sweet car, it was beautiful 89 Monte Carlo, it was burgundy it was beautiful, and so like the big door flew open, and like some how she flew out. My brother like braced himself by doing this (acted out how her brother had braced for impact) and it impacted a tree on her side and it was completely crushed in. and he was like somehow safe, except he was like cut up really bad and his shoes came off for some reason All: [Laughs] FISK: He always remembers that he’s like “I didn’t have any shoes on and it was like winter” Page 10 �All:[Laughs] FISK: And they were in this swamp area, and so got out of the car and he could hear her like moaning and he’s like “oh, stay here” he was all bloody and he said “stay here I’ll go and get help” and the nearest house was probably a quarter mile away. JOHNSON: Oh my gosh FISK: So all this is going on, somebody, I don’t know, he eventually found some a woman’s house and knocked on her door and they called my mom and called the ambulance and everything and so my mom was just like “oh my god oh my god” and I was like what’s happening? JOHNSON: Right FISK: And I was in like 5th grade or something and she just like threw some clothes on and got in my older brothers, his, one of his cars was there for some reason even though he didn’t live there she didn’t really know how to drive it, but she like was smashing gears All: [Laughs] FISK: Like got to the site around the same time the volunteer fire people, because the nearest ambulance is like forever away JOHNSON: Right FISK: And some I’m just like there with the children and she like “I’ll call you or whatever” and there were no cell phones. My sister had broken her neck completely; it was like side by side and thankfully my brother didn’t touch her or move her when she was on the ground because that probably would have killed her. So she was in critical care for some time they had to like put her head in traction, bring it up set back on her neck JOHNSON: Like the halo FISK: Fuse it, yeah, and her spine was swollen but there was on spinal damage. GUERKINK: That’s good. FISK: Like I don’t know how she survived that. JOHNSON: Yeah, grace of god. FISK: Yeah and her lungs, her lung was punctured and stuff, she was on the verge of dying for quite some time. So that was pretty traatic for everyone. And I admire her so much now, and she went through another horrible relationship and divorce it wasn’t physical abuse but it was every other kind. JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: And she got out of that relationship and has been single ever since, we’ve actually grown quite close we would go to her son’s, my nephew’s football games together, we are pretty close now, and I’m close with both her children they are like my siblings. That is her story Page 11 �JOHNSON: She can walk and everything. FISK: Oh yeah, she is fine. JOHNSON: Oh my gosh FISK: She just has like a big scar, and she kind of turns like her whole body [Laughing] JOHNSON: Right FISK: We kind of make fun of her for it. JOHNSON: That’s unbelievable. FISK: Yeah she’s amazing, the fact that she is still living without having had any counseling or anything you know what I mean, and has just gotten through life in general so yeah, she’s, I admire her a lot, and then my other siblings, Jeremy married his high school sweet heart, and they have a two kids, he’s a mechanic. And Elijah got married when he was younger they have like 4 kids, they all actually live by each other GUERKINK: That’s cute FISK: Yeah like in a cul-de-sac, Jeremy lives a few miles away but both Kelly and Elijah and my parents live in like a cul-de-sac GUERKINK: [Laughing] JOHNSON: [Laughing] FISK: We call it the Fisk commune. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: [Laughs] That’s awesome! FISK: Yeah, Elijah, I don’t have anything big about Jeremy he’s cool, he’s whatever. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: Right FISK: Elijah has had the most trouble with, and has been the most vocal about my being gay. GUERKINK: Uh huh JOHNSON: Okay FISK: And he has condemned me, he has said he has felt uncomfortable with me around his children which I promptly said a big “eff you” and Page 12 �JOHNSON: Right FISK: You better not say that to me every again, like you… JOHNSON: Like you’re going to turn them gay or something? FISK: Right yeah, I don’t know what I’m like, what do you even mean JOHNSON: Sigh FISK: That doesn’t even make any sense. JOHNSON: No it doesn’t, there is nothing there FISK: And my dad was even like “what do you mean, what the hell are you talking about” GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: Right FISK: Him and I don’t really speak, we haven’t for quite some years JOHNSON: Really? FISK: Even since he said that basically which was, man I don’t know, maybe 5 years ago JOHNSON: Really, so 5 years? FISK: We just say “hi” and “bye” GUERKINK: The only one in your family that’s like that FISK: Yeah nobody well, most of us can’t stand him too much, because he has a big mouth JOHNSON: Ah, I know the feeling FISK: He just says things without thinking JOHNSON: Yeah that one too FISK: He is very self righteous JOHNSON: Yeah I know the type FISK: Yeah, you can’t even do anything with him JOHNSON: You can’t crack the shell at all, not, there is nothing FISK: You can’t reason with him Page 13 �JOHNSON: No FISK: You can’t, they just like to get a rise out of you JOHNSON: yeah, it’s difficult I’m sure, because he is your brother. FISK: Right JOHNSON: Your closest sibling too so… FISK: Right, he always hated me growing up though JOHNSON: Yeah? FISK: He really despised me [Laughs] I really never knew why. JOHNSON: Because you’re the baby, that’s why, because you’re the youngest. FISK: Yeah JOHNSON: You got everything FISK: Well he did though JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: That’s why I’m so confused, my mom seriously, he is the baby. JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: My mom babied the shit out of him. JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: Serious, my mom still does so… JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: He’s just odd, he pisses my sister off on a regular basis so… GUERKINK: Hmm, great FISK: Yeah Page 14 �GUERKINK: Was it just always like that though, all throughout your childhood, just back and forth back and forth FISK: He was always like beating up on me, and I was like a really small kid and we would kind of play together when we were younger, or whatever and then he started to just like not ever want to do anything with me and the most interaction we had when I was a teenager is he would like drive us to school, and he was always crashing cars JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: We were in an accident together once, he’s had a lot of accidents. JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: Yeah we didn’t really interact, I tried to live with him, because it was closer to where I was working, him and his wife and their first child, and that lasted about 2 months. GUERKINK: Super successful there FISK: Yeah, yeah, that’s when he was still drinking, like he is not allowed to drink per his wife because he turns into even more of an asshole GUERKINK: If you can imagine FISK: So yeah, yeah he, he JOHNSON: A lot working there, a lot working there FISK: Yeah I remember one time he said, he was drinking and I don’t know we were playing games or something and he’s like “yeah, well I know how lesbians have sex, I figured it out”. I’m like “oh did you? You’re a creep shut up.” JOHNSON: Sighs, right GUERKINK: Sighs FISK: I’m like “why are you thinking about that” JOHNSON: Yeah. FISK: “Your sister is a lesbian that’s a little weird.” JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah GUERKINK: That’s a little messed up, kind of gross FISK: And don’t say that to me and don’t ask me questions Page 15 �JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah, right, right GUERKINK: So you guys, I forget how old, older is he from you? FISK: 3 years. GUERKINK: 3 years, so you guys didn’t really go to high school much with him, I’m assuming? FISK: No, actually he, we were both born in October, he started school when he was 4 and I started when I was 5, so I was in 8th grade when he was a senior. GUERKINK: Okay. FISK: So he graduated when he was like 17. GUERKINK: So in high school you were just all by yourself no siblings? FISK: I was, yeah well I dropped out the beginning for my junior year. GUERKINK: Ok FISK: I was very active in softball and basketball most of my life, I very much excelled at softball and probably could have gotten a… JOHNSON: Scholarship FISK: Like a full ride scholarship had I completed high school, our teams always went to like district regional’s and all that. GUERKINK: Sneezes ZAK/FISK: Bless you! FISK: So, but that still, that alone wasn’t enough incentive for me to stay especially after I came out. JOHNSON: Did you go back to get your… FISK: Yeah I went back and got my GED when I was like 19, (burps) excuse me, then started at [GR] CC for several years, then I came to Grand Valley and finished up. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bc6b402cfe8fffdb9cc146da00bd4013.mp3 7d39dfa444bb5e664e7282a445b76403 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Fisk_Anna Title A name given to the resource Anna Fisk audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fisk, Anna Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Zak Guerkink, Andrew Braseth, Peter Description An account of the resource Anna Fisk was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She is an advocate and activist. She discusses growing up being lesbian in a Christian household. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Lesbians--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/06daf1c677eb3e3a4938ded815fb5fdf.pdf bd37c91983eff174cd80762af392dc3e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Gamal Gasim Interviewers: Gagan Singh Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/23/2012 Biography and Description Gamal Gasim, assistant professor of Middle East Studies and Political Science, earned his PhD in political science from Texas Tech. He teaches Introduction to Middle East Studies, Middle East politics, and comparative politics. Before Grand Valley, he taught at Texas Tech, University of Wisconsin-Madison during the summers of 2006 and 2007, and at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Beloit College during the summers of 2008 and 2009 respectively. He discusses how people who do not know anything about Islam or Muslims discriminate against them, and how the media plays a negative role in society in America. Transcript GAGAN: So. Well first of all I would like to know some basic information about you. Like, where you’re from... GASIM: Yemen, I’m from Yemen. But, I was born and raised in Sudan. GAGAN: Ok. GASIM: Then I moved back to Yemen. I spend all of my vacations in Sudan. And then, when I finished my undergraduate and ....Do you want to close the door so...(A LOT OF BACKGROUND NOISE) So, I was raised in Sudan I received all of my education until I finished my undergraduate at the University of Hartford (??), went back to Yemen and then I went to Malaysia and did my first Master’s degree there in Malaysia. I went back to Yemen and I work- I worked two years, then I came back, I came, to the U.S. I did my second Master’s degree and my Doctorate and I joined Grand Valley almost three years ago. GAGAN: Oh, so right after you finished yourGASIM: Yes, yes. Actually before I finished, one year before I finished. GAGAN: Oh okay. GASIM: I finished in 2010, and I joined Grand Valley in 2009. Page 1 �GAGAN: Okay. GASIM: As assistant professor (LISTEN TO AGAIN @ 1:10) Silence GAGAN: So, where did you say you did your doctorate? GASIM: Texas. Texas Tech. GAGAN: Texas? Oh, okay. So then you moved to Michigan right after? GASIM: My Master’s was in Kansas and then I moved to Texas and then I came to Michigan. GAGAN: Oh, yes. You’ve been travelling all over. GASIM: Yeah, and I also work in Wisconsin and I work in Illinois during the summer. University of Wisconsin- Madison, University of (???) College of (??) in Wisconsin and University of Illinois- UrbanaChampaign. I taught two years here and two years there and during the summers. GAGAN: What do you do at the Madison, the school of Madison? Kansas? School of Madison? GASIM: Kansas University has a school of (Medicine/Madison??). Kansas State, Kansas State University, they don’t have a School of Medicine GAGAN: Oh okay. Pause So I’d like to know, like, since this is a diversity class and our interview is based on that, my topic I chose is like, after 9/11, and actually even before, like the differences. I’ve noticed. But, I would like to know, like, what you have noticed. GASIM: Since I came here after September 11, immediately. In, I think, 2002. On a personal level, all my life in America on academic campuses and universities. Dealing with highly educated people. So, I don’t see it really that much personal. I...maybe sometimes a few things outside, but not that much. In the beginning, I see tight security screaming for us in the airports and stuff like that. Now, in the last 3 or 4 years, I don’t know if they removed me from the list or not but I don’t see it that much. I don’t see it that much. So. Personal. But yes, of course. ...especially in Arabian/Muslim American communities they feel that now that they became, they moved from what we call, they were like...before September 11 they were invisible. Like many other minorities. Okay? ...American eyes and very invisible in the public discourse. They were invisible in discussions and suddenly they moved from this invisibility to hypervisibility. And they came to be regarded as the ‘other’. GAGAN: They stuck out, like right after that. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: They started noticing- Page 2 �GASIM: Yes, yes. GAGAN: “Oh they’re brown. They’re not Americans”. GASIM: (Not sure what he’s saying) And other groups too. Like Muslims, being considered to be..(Can’t figure this part out) GAGAN: Yeah, like seek(??)...yeah, seeks(??). Yeah, that’s who I am. And I’ve noticed, like we don’t wear turbans, but my dad’s friends wear turbans. So, because they wear turbans they thought they were Muslims. GASIM: Some of them think that, unfortunately. Because... GAGAN: Yeah, but it isn’t right, even if they were Muslims. GASIM: Yes, yes. GAGAN: Wearing, they… GASIM: But, I think this is like guilded by far association, like, because of the resemblance of the Taliban’s, or something like that. And it’s just also the ignorance of people sometimes. GAGAN: Yeah. Silence And I’ve noticed that, too, myself. That sometimes, if you-if people know about you, if you have close friends, they know about you. They’re more, what? Educated. GASIM: Yes! GAGAN: But, if there’s people who don’t have like Muslim friends, Indian friends, seek (?) friends...they won’t know the difference. GASIM: Absolutely. And studies showed that those who are Muslim have more federal views about Salam (?) and Muslim GAGAN: Yeah. GASIM: (…) than those who don’t have friends, yes. (...) GAGAN: Yeah, I was reading, or it was a, news? Or a show on-in PR, and they were talking about after 9/11 how Muslims were being treated. But, people that had friends, like white people who had friMuslim friends, they favorited them. They thought they were the nicest people. But, people that didn’t know anything about Islam or Muslim people, they basically hated them. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: They thought they were ‘bad’. Page 3 �GASIM: Yes. Absolutely. GAGAN: So, they’re not educated about… GASIM: Yes. Silence GAGAN: What else do you feel like could change, should be changed or how can people be educated more? GASIM: America has this long tradition of isolationism. Ok? And I think it’s so deep rooted in the culture. For example, I teach classes about issues in political politics. And the first of the semester what I do, I always show pictures or photos of Kim Kardashian and I let the class talk about her. They know almost everything about her. And then another picture of Lindsay Lohan, and then a, Snooki, and I let the class talk like 15 minutes about these 3 people. they know almost who their husbands, boyfriends, what they do, when they went to jail, all this kind of information. And then I will show a picture of the British Prime Minister. GAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: And nobody knows anything about him. GAGAN: Yeah. GASIM: So, basically, America’s for a long time been isolated here, even until of course September 11 happened and all (…) like, Bill Harper or like that, then they think that, okay well what happened in maybe Afghanistan or the Middle East might affect them here, too. So, that’s a big issue. Hopefully, education might help a little bit. This is why schools like Grand Valley requires you to take courses like yours. Diversity, global diversity, in order to educate the students about understanding diversity and other cultures. So, that is, that is, helpfulness of education. building more programs like this would help. the media, I’m not sure. I’m not sure that that could help. But, the U.S in general, moves toward more, I mean after…the demographic make-up in the country is going to be- change in the coming 50 years or 40 years. So that might force people to basically stand out and come to close contact with different ethnic groups. I mean in the long run. Maybe I’m optimistic. Brief silence GAGAN: But do you like, you mentioned, the media. You said that won’t help much. Why do you feel that? GASIM: the medi—the role of the media, I mean what they, I mean. Deep sigh I don’t know. I mean, of course, sometimes the media can play a role in what you call the normalization of certain ideologies, or the acceptance of a specific minorities life. For example, now many shows about gay couples, for example, okay? Trying to let the public at least, accept that reunion. In that area, that works very nice. (?) But, that impact would take a very long time and I don’t know if there is really, if the Page 4 �media is playing a very significant, constructive roles in this areas. I’m not sure about that. I’m not an expert in media, but this course sometimes shows the news and media outlets that focus on news and important news sometimes is not healthy. like Fox news or others and some do, some do a decent job. But, in general, (…………………) GAGAN: Have you noticed the difference between media here and media from different countries? GAGAN: Like, in the U.S, it’s just what they kind of want you to know, information. But, if you listen to BBC, they actually tell you a little more information about what’s going on in the U.S. and outside. Which sometimes, I feel that they kind of hide some stuff here. GASIM: Yeah that comes by us by omission. U.S. of course, has a long tradition of reporting about different countries and BBC has what I would consider, so far, a credible source for information for many countries. Like there is of course differences between reporting and commenting on the news ? so the BBC is doing a good job at reporting on what happened and, and, and reaching out to many people. And what they report, I don’t think they report from the British point of view. But American media tends to report from American prospective and, and basically what, what helps sometimes a political and (…..). And most of the (…) newspapers and media are controlled by conservative and reporters tend to be liberal. And like for example, some newspapers owned by conservatives, on current issues and they tend to be sometimes conservative, but in social issues they tend to be liberal because that is what most reporters are liberal. But, yes, I mean, they don’t have that, of course that long tradition like the BBC, for example. And sometimes people here like, to the right wing are so upset about, they’re disappointed about what you call the, the BBC, the PBS, for example. They think that they worry (……). So, I think that is, could be dangerous because the PBS to some extent, in my understanding is, similar to the BBC. public funded type of media. But, the BBC of course has that tradition and that respecting differences in Africa and the Middle East. And now of course we see new media coming from developing countries reversing the flow of information from North to South. Like in (...) which is challenging the Western dominance of media. Of information. GAGAN: So like, you mentioned earlier like at the airport security was a little more strict/is more strict for us, like, do you, when you go there or when you’re at the airport, do you feel like upset or angry? GASIM: No, I tend to be relaxed and smiling. Because otherwise I, I will, I fly a lot. I fly a lot when I came here for conferences. That’s like 3 or 4 times a year, at least. And, and I decided always to be smiling. These people are doing their job powerfully. And, and, and after all it’s for my safety. But, I remember that in 2002 they used to have microphones and this loud speaker. And they would always, they normally have this phrase, like they are going to select some people randomly. GAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: And always I was selected randomly. [Laughs] GASIM: So, so that was then. I think from 2002 to 2004...Things changed I think when Bush was reelected. So then before his election you see all this kind of media, terrorist alerts. And Americans were constant attack of fear, there was like another September 11 coming and this. But suddenly after he was elected again... Page 5 �GAGAN: it slowed. (??) GASIM: Yeah I mean you hear that these colors and this . And, and I remember until 2004 all this abundance...used to talk about how they are safe and no major attack...and I was wondering if Obama would say the same thing. Like now, since now 4 years since Obama is now and no major attack in the U.S. So, it is interesting to see the things. GAGAN: Yep, [haha]. So do you feel like discriminated a--at all? At that? Like... GASIM: I mean I am not sure. I, of course, it is difficult to, basically, know the intent, ? GAGAN: If they are doing their job, but the way they treat you? The way they talk sometimes? Do you feelGASIM: of course they are not like, I mean at that time. Now, it is different from 2005 to now I don’t, I don’t really see that. many times they pass out additional screening. Many times. Rarely I was stopped actually. I see sometimes worried people being chased (laughs) and-and which is, I feel sorry for them, but at the same time I’m happy that it’s not me, ? So that has changed a lot. From 2002 to 2004 and 5, it was...One time I remember in particularGAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: I miss a flight and then I have-I had a connection and I was going to a conference in New York. GAGAN: Mhmm GASIM: And in Kansas City, I remember I pass security and I was waiting and waiting because I missed my flight. And Kansas International Airport, Kansas City International Airport is not that big. So not so many people around and I think I was sitting for like 2-3 hours and suddenly a security agent came to me and asked me “Sir, I want to check your documents”. Even though I was just waiting for my flight. And if it were someone else he or she might be upset “Why?” “I’m not passing security, I already did that and I’m here waiting for my-” . And he asked me questions about where is my flight and how-why I’m waiting longer here. GAGAN: Suspecting you. GASIM: Yeah, so basically I show her my documents and I was fine. That happened to me in Kansas--the three incidents happened in Kansas City. One also, one--one time I was going from Kansas City to Manhattan where, Kansas, taking a small flight, where I did my second master. And there was a woman, American-Indian woman, from India. And she was selected and I was selected. The only, we are on a small flight, like maybe, 12 people? GAGAN: Oh and two brown people? [Laughs] GASIM: Yeah, so, she was selected and even though we came, we had already been screened from New York and we went through this process of, this screening. And we had our connection just in Kansas City, going to Manhattan. I mean there is no reason for us to, there is no security reason...it is just a Page 6 �connection! And actually in the gate there is security agents and they said from TSA and the man said, “I’m going to select people from random”. They used to test them like that. And then they choose her and they choose me. And she was extremely angry. And she threw the bag to them, like that, “You wanna take this? This is here for you”. And I was really surprised by her behavior. She’s American so she knows her rights. And I’m not American I’m (...) Anything can happen, anything can happen to me. Even though I was (...). So she was extremely angry, but I decided for a long time, by that time, not to let that affect me, as much. If I be angry. And actually, I remember the man, the security agent, he was very calm with this woman. he did not react angrily. Maybe they know that they are wrong, that what they do is wrong, but the woman has a right because there is no harm...and no need for this. GAGAN: Yeah, they shouldn’t. No need for violence. GASIM: Yeah. No need for her to be subject to screening. Cause she already passed it, she came from New York and just, in the waiting area going--taking another flight you don’t do that. That’s unheard of. GAGAN: Well, it’s kind of like you feel--don’t you feel a little weird when there’s other people already watching you and it’s only you or the Indian lady? GASIM: No, no. I mean myself—myself I...because usually if someone has a problem with me it is not my problem, it’s his problem. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: And that doesn’t make me feel bad. Ok? I mean if someone is racist to me, or makes a racist comment--I remember one time I was, during having my, when I was doing my doctorate degree at University of Texas I was going (........) my meal, my meal there. And then a homeless white woman stopped me and asked me for money. I think she was maybe drunk, alcohol or something. I don’t have cash so I say can I buy a meal for them, but I don’t have cash. And I say to her, I don’t have money for you, I’m sorry. And she asks me if I’m a terrorist. [Pauses] And I was laughing because look at she. I was a doctorate student here (laughs) I’m paying my bills, I’m contributing, I’m teaching my own classes and you are a homeless woman here and not only begging for money to use it for drugs but begging me and thinking you are better than me and you call me a terrorist. And she followed me actually, I almost feel like this woman is going to cause some trouble. And-and I wasn’t rewarded because how people can take any kind of racket. So I went there and she followed me into the Burger King and I think they are used to her because they let us in and I told the cashier, I said, just to be like, “This woman is following me”. And the woman, because I did not respond negatively to her and the way she took that like out of weakness or something because I’m so (…) I don’t want to create unnecessary problems for myself. Not because I’m afraid of her . I just told the woman that this and she really, the cashier, she was African-American and she threatened her and she said “You either leave this property or I will call the police for you”. And the woman left. Another friend of mine, we used to work in Yemen together and he came, an exchange student like me from (…) student. And he came to Missouri. And his first two days in the U.S in Missouri (laughs) and he stayed in a motel looking for apartment, the school is starting next week and then he found an address and being near an area so he was just walking looking for this place to rent and he felt like he got lost because like sometimes you are disorientated after long flights. So he asked, like in our country, you ask anybody about directions. Page 7 �So he asked a man like do this street or where this is and the man said “You just wait here and I’ll show you, just wait”. And the man went and called the cops for him. [Pauses] So the man was waiting for this guy to help him. He wasn’t (…). And the police were nearby, they came, dispatch. And when they say, they ask him and they had all his documents with him, his passport and everything. And when they realized that he was an exchange student they felt very sorry, they told him that there are some people who they are not really that smart and they were all nice to him. The man wasn’t really shocked that he was just asking about an address and then they told him the man suspected that you are a terrorist or something. So, so things like this could happen. There are many, many examples of this happening. I remember one of the very funniest and saddest examples. I was told by someone I trust very much, he told me. There was a young Muslim couple, the woman had a scarf. And one time the neighbor came, an old lady, to visit them. The man was not there, the woman welcomed that old lady. And, she asked her a very strange question, she said, “Can I check your rooms? Can I see your rooms?” Usually as a guest you don’t do that. (laughs) GAGAN: Yeah, you don’t do that. GASIM: Yeah, so she—she lets her. Which indicates a nice woman; she lets her see the rooms. And after she checks all of the rooms, the kids’ rooms, and everything, the kitchen, everything, and she said, “Actually to be honest with you, I had a vision that you and your husband hijack an airplane and crash into my house. [Pause] And I called the FBI about that”. [Laughs] GAGAN: She really called the FBI?? GASIM: Yeah, yeah. So she was so concerned about that dream and because she saw this neighbor, this Muslim couple, and the police I think or the FBI, they told her, “We don’t act on people’s dreams”. So basically and she told him she’s really worried. She’s really thinking these people are preparing something like that in their homes, building something in her dream and that they hijack an airplane and . Attack and destroy her home. So they advise her why don’t you go visit them by yourself and see? (laughs) Gamal and Gagan talking at same time, laughing GASIM: And she followed their basically advice and she came to see for herself. If, fortunately that her dream did not come true. [Laughs] GAGAN: That’s weird though. GASIM: Yes, I was told this. So, things can be to that extreme where it’s easy to label people terrorist. Page 8 �GAGAN: Yeah, people usually…My dad owns a store and once in a while we get one customer who’s, if we refuse him, refuse to sell, like if they’re already a little drunk or something, we refuse to sell. And then they actually start getting all racist, mean. And one guy was like, “You terrorists and this that”. I feel real angry. GASIM: Yes, but your father I’m sure is calm. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: Yeah, cause if you feel angry every time then you are not helping yourself. You are helping them, yes. GAGAN: Yeah, I mean. I really understand how everyone feels. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: Then I also noticed, like like most of the students, like we look at younger kids, like my age, Indian kids, Arab kids, or any other foreign kids they don’t really get in trouble here. They’ll be like, the good kids. GASIM: Yes and many (….). They—they’re from hard-working families, they came, they built their lives from scratch. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: And life, life in America for immigrants even if you are the kid because Americans don’t accept degrees from other countries. So it is very hard to see all of them, they have very impressive stories to tell about how they struggled to pay their bills and how they struggled to send their kids to college and, and their kids are hard-working kids and loyal to their families and they have these family values. So, this of course, yes. This America was built by these immigrants who are hardworking people. Yes. GAGAN: That’s what I was getting at but still that, by the color they think, oh their bad even though. the while kids are getting into trouble here, more fights and stuff but still its because they are brown, they are bad. GASIM: Yes of course we don't want to be like white kids are bad GAGAN: But we do GASIM: But I see your point that most of the immigrant kids are hard working, their parents motivate them to do well to go to better school and be a engineer and you want to be a doctor, right? GAGAN: Yeah GASIM: Do you want to be a doctor? GAGAN: Hmm yeah, I want. yeah I want to, yea that’s what I'm doing. GASIM: All my international students, all my like students coming from international background, like they want to be doctors. Some want to be in medical science, nothing them wants to be go for political Page 9 �science for media because that’s very important. If you go to hospitals, most of them are basically doctors are either foreign born or came from families, where their parents are also foreign born. GAGAN: Yup, and I have noticed that… GASIM: Yes yes, let me just check, if you don’t mind, the because I have class at three, if you don’t mind? GAGAN: No problem GASIM: If you don’t mind? (Prof. Gasim logins into his computer to check his schedule and his emails before class, as he says this the start sound of the computer could be heard also). GASIM: Oh OK. (here he says something which was very clear to hear). GAGAN: We still got some time? GASIM: I just, my class is jus like ten minutes, and I need just like aaaahhh aaahhh. GAGAN: Ten minutes? GASIM: How many questions do you have left? GAGAN: Just question about like, changes in the community you in. hmmmm GASIM: Actually I’m not in community, just fine. GAGAN: I mean.. GASIM: Not like American, living alone [hahahaha] GAGAN: Even here GASIM: Yeah hmmm GAGAN: You probably notice everyone working with you but like if you go to a grocery store or something like you were talking about the airport situation, like person infront of you is, im gonna use a White person again, and they are really nice talking to them but when its your turn, they just say ok its this much( talking about the cashier, not talking to him and just asking him to pay the total amount) GASIM: Hmmm, to be honest with you, no, its me personal. Sometimes it’s a, in some cases aaa, one time I went to the bank and I had unfortunate incident in a bank, just recently, jus a small bank I have an account, and I felt the lady there was lied to me. It is a long story, so I went out and I was really angry. Then I call, I called the a the bank and she answered, she told me she was manager. I know she wasn’t the manager, so I insisted the then I talk to the higher level headquarters nationally u know. It’s a national bank, a bank that has many branches nationwide and I told them what I need is two things, basically needed a apology from that branch because basically I feel there is discrimination and number two, I don’t want this to be happen to other persons. I know my rights and I can fight my rights but I don’t someone whos just know not much communication or have the time to follow up these things. And they really apologized, the manager of that bank called me the morning and apologized, the director of that region called me and apologized and I get a formal letter of an apology. Page 10 �GAGAN: That’s good GASIM: That is one thing sometimes here even like, one time here in department, I was here a faculty, there was a student, basically I was had to talk to her supervisor because of my accent or something I don’t know I’m the fucklty( sorry that’s how he pronounced it)I keeping let that happen. I keeping her( I did not understand what he said at this moment but it was only a sentence). I told her, I was very angry and I talk to her like I was very firm and wanted to make sure that there was nothing. Then she and another man I talk to him, he try to defend her, on a different lecture and left a message, message to the supervisor; I wanna talk to the head otherwise I going to rise this to the highest level in the school. Next morning, six o’clock in the morning, I check my voice message from home here and I found a message from da, the man in the beginning was defense about the girl, I told him look, if you still want to be defensive here, what I need is you to realize that this is wrong and to ask, to apologize for it. GAGAN: Yea GASIM: That’s what I want, I’m not hmmm if he feels that hmmm there is nothing wrong here, there is no point to continue the conversation. I’m go to fear until he realizes which side is wrong and after I said that he immediately apologized, more than once. So, you need to, because once they apologized they are wrong. GAGAN: They realized, yeah. GASIM: If they were not wrong, they would never apologize. So, that is I think, I mean this happened very few that I can tell but I feel sorry for people who were in… GAGAN: People that don’t English, cant explain or argue their side. GASIM: Yes yes, it doesn’t mean if you don’t speak English, it doesn’t me that you are not intelligent person. Sometimes, unfortunately people think that because you don’t speak their language, you are not smart or intelligent. GAGAN: Yeah yup. GASIM: And if your not cautions if you don’t speak the language, you like. Even they can make fun of you, those who don’t speak their language enough. And my life I spent my life, international student all my life. GAGAN: Yeah, you been traveling everywhere. GASIM: And always as a minority. So, I never lived as a majority [hahaha] in a place. So, that is, then you get a strong sense of what is justice, what is right and what is important. GAGAN: that’s how you become stronger. GASIM: Yes and you educate people about it, you get people like because they take us sometimes for granted. GAGAN: So, basically to end like most of this, some of discrimination is by educating everyone because lot of people that are racist, they are not educated about other people. Page 11 �GASIM: Sometimes with education, sometimes people know but they still insisted to act racist because of selfish economic interest, selfish political rights. So education is yes but you need to let people know they are wrong, you need to stand up for what is right and not just wait until it to happen to us. GAGAN: Yup GASIM: So if it happens to someone else, GAGAN: Yea we need to take a stand GASIM: Yes, I remember jus two weeks ago, I was in McDonalds. I was getting grading my papers and had my coffee. There was a homeless man, he was very nice and friendly and sometimes I talk to him. I saw him and I asked him if he if he if he wants me to buy him a lunch. And he said yea I can buy, then I went and ordered and then I left. Then they put the order in my table, they thought it was my order, so when I came he was not there, so I moved all the order in his place. Then I walk, like to have a break and I came back again. And then the manager came, she was a very nice young woman, asked me if I got my order, maybe they realized that there is not. I said, oh yeah and then to clarify things to her, I assumed that maybe the man took my order, so I’m saying no I bought this for him. Because she say me pay for it. GAGAN: Then she saw that the plate or tray with the other guy. GASIM: Yes, I mean he was not there when she came and asked me. I told her no, I bought this for him I just. I thought I clarified enough for her and then she left. Then also I walk again, the man came, finishing was eating. Then there was another woman, friend of his wife, his ex-wife, she saw him and she also bought him a salad like a lunch. I think the man was well before he became homeless. This homeless people also came from good background. Doesn’t mean they were born homeless. GAGAN: Yeah, yup. Some people go bank, bankrupt, so they don’t have any other choice. GASIM: Absolutely, this can happen to any of us in this country. So, anyways, the man came back. The man was little bit upset and so I ask him why, he ask can I talk to you? Because I was busy working. I said yes. He told me the manage came and insulted him basically talking why you beg people for food. (he says something here which wasn’t very clear, just one sentence not much). I was really offended by that, I tell him that no you never ask me for food, I never saw, you never bother anybody, you never beg for food. And he was dressed nicely and I said that is all, I’m going to talk to her. GAGAN: Hmm GASIM: So I went and I call her. I said, look I told her what happened, I told you, you asked me if I bought him this meal. This man never asked me for, I I said I think you really hurt his feelings. Yes, hes homeless but he is a decent human being, he has feelings and I think you owe him an apology. You need to go apologize to him. And she said she will do it but she was busy. After few minutes she came there, I was sitting, she came very nicely, she sat with him and said, I want to tell you something that I’m really sorry. The man moved by this, then she told him something, she made him laugh, I don’t know what they both talk about. Then the man look at me and said you talk to her and I said yes. But, my point here is so even the man was white, we need to stand up for justice. GAGAN: There is other kinds of discrimination not just because your from a different country, there is also like poor and rich.. Page 12 �GASIM: Economic bases, religious bases, ethnic basses, there is also based on color, based on linguistics, based on ethnic, color also comes into this gender bases, sexual orientation. I mean we might not approve peoples way of life but that is in this country at least. Everyone should have his dignity as a human being. Whatever background they came from and we need to stand up for that. GAGAN: Yup, definitely, we just did a 24 hour no judging exercise. It didn’t go so well for most people I think. I tried so hard not to judge anyone, so I think it’s a good exercise. I think more people should be involved in this, its hard. You start thinking why am I doing this, why is it so hard for me to not like judge someone. GASIM: I learned my lesson a lot not to judge people. Sometimes things can happen to us like, and when you live in different countries you see, you live that. i really have just, I need to do a few things. You can stop me if you need anything, another time we can continue our discussion anytime. GAGAN: Okay, that’s fine, no problem, thank you. GASIM: I hope this was helpful for what you’re doing? GAGAN: Yes this was, thank you very much. END OF INTERVIEW Page 13 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05ac84ef3aa33330f9bea130eacd3932.mp3 d121eb090b52d5436a419548de1c3aa1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Gasim_Gamal Title A name given to the resource Gamal Gasim audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gasim, Gamal Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Singh, Gagan Description An account of the resource Gamal Gasim, assistant professor of Middle East Studies and Political Science, earned his PhD in political science from Texas Tech. He teaches Introduction to Middle East Studies, Middle East politics, and comparative politics. Before Grand Valley, he taught at Texas Tech, University of Wisconsin-Madison during the summers of 2006 and 2007, and at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Beloit College during the summers of 2008 and 2009 respectively. He discusses how people who do not know anything about Islam or Muslims discriminate against them, and how the media plays a negative role in society in America. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9d38a8694eadcfdd3a71956170a72db6.pdf 069d503a407a6097aadcd49cce868c95 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Helen Grahuis Interviewers: Alissa Cohen, Hannah Frazer, Bryce Byker and Eli Bale Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/16/2012 Biography and Description Helen Grahius was born and raised in Haren, Groningen, Netherlands. Later in life, she moved to West Michigan to be with her siblings. She discusses her life in the Netherlands and in the United States. Transcript INTERVIEWER: Okay, so we’re recording it now the first thing I gotta do is read you this oral release form. So it’s “I, Helen Grashuis. hereby agree to participate in aninterview in connection with the oral history project known as “Speaking Out: WesternMichigan’s Civil Rights Histories” at Grand Valley State University. I understand thatthe purpose of this project is to collect audio-recorded oral histories, as well as selectedrelated documentary materials such as photographs and manuscripts, from thoseknowledgeable about civil rights and civil rights activism in Western Michigan with thegoal of preserving these materials and making them available for teaching and research.This may include publication in print, multimedia programs such as radio or television. and the WWW, among others.” So, basically we can use the interview you’re giving us. We can like write a paper about it and we can maybe put some of it on the The internet and ... which we probably won’t because it’s just a small thing, but that would be pretty cool (Everyone laughs) GRAHUIS: Now, do I have to have experience? INTERVIEWER: No. You don’t have to have experience! GRAHUIS: Okay! ‘Cause I don’t! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: (Laughing) Neither do we! Okay number two: I understand that I may be identified by name, subject to my consent. I may also be identified by name in any transcript (whether verbatim or edited) of such interview, subject to my consent. If I choose to remain anonymous, which you can, I know that audio-recordings of my interview will be closed to use, and my name will not appear in the transcript or reference to any material contained in the interview. I know that in the case of choosing to remain anonymous, my interview will only be identified by an internal ‘Speaking Out” project tracking number. So, you’ll just have a number. Page 1 �GRAHUIS: Oh. INTERVIEWER: And you won’t have a name I understand that the interview will take approximately two hours ... or one hour — GRAHUIS: Yeah! ‘Cause I have to go to bible study! INTERVIEWER: ... yeah, (oral release form continued) and that I can withdraw from the project without prejudice prior to the execution and delivery of this release form. So you can still back out at any time. In the event — GRAHUIS: Oh! Let’s go Monique! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: In the event that I withdraw from the interview, any recordings make of the interview will be either given to me or destroyed, and no transcript will be made of the interview. I understand that a photograph of me may be taken or borrowed for duplication, and that if I withdraw from the project, the photograph will be given to me and any copies made by the project destroyed. Number four: I understand that, upon completion of the interview, and subject to all the other terms and conditions of this agreement, GVSU shall own the copyright to this work and will be able to use it in any manner it chooses including but not limited to use by researchers and students in presentations and publications, but that I shall be given a perpetual permissive license to use my contribution in any manner or any medium as long as I notify GVSU prior to such use. Wow. Number five, there’s only a few more GRAHUIS: Oh, okay. INTERVIEWER: I understand that any restrictions as to use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. So, you can tell us to leave parts out if you want number six: I understand that upon the completion of this interview and signing this release, the recordings, photographs, and one copy of the transcript will be kept in Grand Valley State University Libraries’ Special Collections in Allendale, Michigan. So, all of these interviews, we’re keeping them all in one place. So, all the students in our class and other classes are interviewing people also like professors and other people they know and it will all be kept in one place — all those different interviews. GRAHUIS: Oh! INTERVIEWER: Number seven: If I have questions about the research project or procedures, I know that I can contact Dr. Melanie Shell-Weiss in the Department of Liberal Studies, and it tells all her contact information. Okay, so now — do you guys have a pen? — we need you to sign this... are you okay with us identifying you? Is that okay? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Awesome. So ... you just need to sign right here. Page 2 �GRAHUIS: My name? INTERVIEWER: Your name, the address and the date, and your phone number. GRAHUIS: The date today is 16, right? INTERVIEWER: Yup, march 16. GRAHUIS: 3, 16. INTERVIEWER: 12. Monique (Helen’s daughter): Yes, my dad really did wear these. (She pulls out a pair of old wooden shoes) INTERVIEWER: Oh my goodness, that’s so cool. Can I see this? What size are these? (Trying the shoes on) GRAHUIS: I don’t know... BALE: You’ll probably fit into them INTERVIEWER: I don’t know... BALE: Actually, they may be a little to big — small, I mean to big. INTERVIEWER: To big? BALE: Yeah, your feet are way to big. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Ouch. Aw man, I would have to get used to these. I bought a pair when I went there... what size shoe do you wear? 13’s. And those are to big for you? BALE: Do they fit you? INTERVIEWER: No. Not even close. What, they’re way to big? Yeah. BALE: Yeah, they’re to big. INTERVIEWER: I wear 10’s. BALE: Oh wow. GRAHUIS: The interviewee’s me. INTERVIEWER: Do you agree to be identified by name? Oh, and, you don’t wish to remain anonymous. And Helen”... BALE: These are speculaas (pulling out a box of cookies). Have you ever had these? INTERVIEWER: Ooh! GRAHUIS: (signing her name) Grashuis. Page 3 �BALE: They’re like ginger cookies. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Help yourself. Do you want one, mom? GRAHUIS: No thanks. INTERVIEWER: Alright. I’m just going to write my name for the thing. GRAHUIS: Speculaas. INTERVIEWER: Thank you. BALE: (Pulling out a picture frame) Oh, and this is my dad wearing his wooden shoes. INTERVIEWER: Oh! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: Wow, that’s awesome. GRAHUIS: Yup. That’s my husband. He died three years ago. INTERVIEWER: Oh really. Okay, so. Did you guys know how we want to start this? Or do we just want to wing it? Well, we have to introduce ourselves. Okay. No that’s not me. (Looking at a picture) I’m not that cute. (Everyone laughs) GRAHUIS: You are! You’ve changed since I’ve last seen you! INTERVIEWER: Look at that... (looking at pictures). GRAHUIS: For the better! INTERVIEWER: Thank you! So we need to introduce ourselves. And say who we’re interviewing. Oh yeah, that’s right! It’s in the sample question packet, I think you’ve got it. That’s right here. This is kind ofjust an outline... BALE: Here I’ll take that. INTERVIEWER: Okay, sweet. I’ve got what we have to say right in here. So, I’m just going to follow what this says may name is Eli Bale. And we have Bryce Byker, Hannah Frazier. Allisa Cohen. We are here on Friday, March the third, at 3:16 — the 16th GRAHUIS: 16 honey. INTERVIEWER: At quarter after 3 pm with Mrs. Helen Grashuis in Kirkhoff on Grand Valley State University’s campus in Allendale, Michigan. We are here about to talk about Mrs. Grashuis’s memories of her childhood and anything else she can remember about her life in western Michigan. Okay. And we also have Monique Bale, who’s here to help us conduct the interview. Page 4 �BALE: Helen’s daughter. GRAHUIS: Oldest daughter. INTERVIEWER: Okay, so, how’d you guys want to start this? Okay, so where were you born exactly? GRAHUIS: I was born in Haren, Groningen. Groningen is the northern part of Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. Very cool. GRAHUIS: And my husband was born in Amsterdam. INTERVIEWER: Oh. How do you spell Groningen? GRAHUIS: Groningen G-r-o-n-i-n-g-e-n. Groningen. INTERVIEWER: Okay, very good. Thank you. Okay, so tell us a little about your family. GRAHUIS: My family — my mom and dad there were nine children in my family. . five boys and four girls. So yeah. Wonderful family. INTERVIEWER: Wait a second for this to go by. GRAHUIS: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And how was that experience growing up with such a large family? GRAHUIS: Real wonderful. INTERVIEWER: You liked it? GRAHUIS: Yeah, we had wonderful parents. INTERVIEWER: Are you close — were you close with your siblings? GRAHUIS: Yes. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Was it typical in that area or time to have that amount of people in a family? GRAHUIS: Yes, yeah. My dad had four brothers and they all had big families. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: We had nine kids. The other ones had, the other one had six girls — INTERVIEWER: Oh my goodness. GRAHUIS: (chucklesj and there were, was another one who had six boys. And so — INTERVIEWER: Jeez. GRAHUIS: Big! Yeah! Those — those times they all had big families. Page 5 �INTERVIEWER: Yeah, wow. It sounds like it. GRAHUIS: Yeah, yeah. We got along real well. INTERVIEWER: What did your parents do for work? What did your dad do for work? GRAHUIS: My dad had his own company, and he, with his brothers, and he selled cement and all that building materials. Yeah, it went real well. INTERVIEWER: What about your mother? Was she just a stay at home mom? GRAHUIS: My mom, ach! Yeah, my mom was a stay at home mom. INTERVIEWER: With that may kids! GRAHUIS: Washing clothes and ... yup. INTERVIEWER: What did a typical day look like for you guys? Like, in like the school year. Like, was it all different grades? Like, in the Netherlands did they have, like, a middle school and a high school where you guys were all separated up into? GRAHUIS: the school I went to the distances were so small. So we walked to school there was one road that go into, from where we were to the, the schools, the Christian school. INTERVIEWER: So it was a pretty small town? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Quite small, and *ahem*, excuse me. a lot of Dutch people. In that, time, there were a lot of people that came from different countries. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And do you remember anything about your school. GRAHUIS: Well, we had to work hard! (Laughter) INTERVIEWER: Yuuuup, I can relate to that. You said there were people from a lot of different countries so, would you say that everyone was excepting of all the different types of people that were there? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Yeah, uh-huh. And I think mostly they came from the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Yeah. So,— BALE: But mom, you said too, that your community was really tight-nit. You knew all the families. GRAHUIS: Yes. Page 6 �BALE: You had a milkman who came down the street with his horse-cart. those families. The Bucker the Baker’s man. GRAHUIS: He would go through the street with his little red INTERVIEWER: - like cart? GRAHUIS: Cart! Yup, that he pushed. Yeah, it was wonderful time we had, a wonderful time. BALE: And because your family was so big, you didn’t have a whole lot of money. GRAHUIS: Nope. BALE: And it was a home — you slept with your sisters right? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Two sisters. GRAHUIS: Yup. BALE: And it was very, and in the winter time it was very cold. I remember you telling stories of when you would wake up in the morning and ice would be on your sheets. That’s how cold it was. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: Wow! BALE: And you slept together to keep warm. GRAHUIS: To keep warm. BALE: And you didn’t have very many clothes. GRAHUIS: That’s right. BALE: And, I was just asking her on the way over here. Did you wear wooden shoes when you were growing up? And she did. She wore wooden shoes all through elementary school. She said, I said, so how do your feet keep warm. She said they had leather slippers that they would put inside their wooden shoes and they would walk. GRAHUIS: Socks of course. BALE: And they would walk through the snow and snow would accumulate on their wooden shoes. INTERVIEWER: Oh my gosh, wow. Kind of like ice skating. Exactly. BALE: And she said when she got to be about, what? Maybe ten. You got your first pair of leather shoes. That was a big deal. Page 7 �GRAHUIS: Oh yeah! We were so proud! We could go to church with our leather shoes we would just walk in the neighborhood and just look at it. Just look at it! INTERVIEWER: Ah, that’s great. Yeah, what about — GRAHUIS: I have such wonderful memories of my youth. INTERVIEWER: Tell us some of those memories. GRAHUIS: Huh? INTERVIEWER: Tell us some of your favorite memories. If you have any. GRAHUIS: (chuckles) Favorite — favorite memories! There was a lot of— there was a lot of land there. So, grass and ditches and we would have a long pole and jump across those ditches and guess what? We would fall in! So beautiful. BALE: So when the canals froze over — INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. Skating! BALE: Yeah, skating for miles and miles. GRAHUIS: Oh yes, we skated for miles — INTERVIEWER: So fun GRAHUIS: That’s, oh that was wonderful. Wonderful. And we had, we had lanterns and we lived, my family lived on, the haven ... haven ... how do you say haven? BALE: Like a little lake. Like a little pond or a little lake. GRAHUIS: Where the boats would come in. INTERVIEWER: Okay, did you live — BALE: Like a harbor! GRAHUIS: Harbor. INTERVIEWER: Did you live — BALE: Like a harbor. INTERVIEWER: - near the ocean? GRAHUIS: Huh? INTERVIEWER: Did you live near the ocean? GRAHUIS: No, no. Page 8 �INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Opa did. Opa is grandpa. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: And I’m oma. INTERVIEWER: (chuckles) Yup, my oma. I’ve heard you call her that a couple times. Yeah, they were confused when I said that the first time! They were like, What does that mean?” (Laughter) GRAHUIS: (laughing) Yeah! BALE: Yeah, so you lived on the harbor. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Yeah. GRAHUIS: And then my dad, my dad would, put us on his back, and we would tie our skates on then we could go on his back and he would drop us off on the harbor. There was ice — well, of course there was ice, otherwise he wouldn’t throw us in! And then at night they would put the lights on these... we call it. INTERVIEWER: Like the lamps? GRAHUIS: Yeah! Yes, yes. Otherwise we would break our neck. But then we would skate from the harbor to the canal. We would have to go under bridges. INTERVIEWER: Did you ever have races? GRAHUIS: What? INTERVIEWER: Did you ever have races on the canals? Like skating races? GRAHUIS: Not that much on the canals. But there were also lakes and that is where they mostly had the races INTERVIEWER: Now I know Opa was quite a big sailor. Did you sail at all when you were growing up? Like, did you go out on the water in boats? GRAHUIS: My husband? INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I know Opa was a big sailor but did you do any sailing or fishing out on the water? GRAHUIS: Fishing! Oh we did a lot of fishing. INTERVIEWER: When did you meet your husband? GRAHUIS: I met my husband in the sixties? No fifties Page 9 �INTERVIEWER: Ok so quite a bit after your childhood. And did you meet him there or when you came to the United States? GRAHUIS: No I met him here. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow! GRAHUIS: Yeah, I met him in church. He saw me sitting in church. Because I had and aunt and uncle that were in Kalamazoo, they immigrated to Kalamazoo, and they had ten kids. So I would go to church with them. And then Hank, my husbands name is Hank, his, let me see, where am I? Oh Yes, they were members of the same church. It was a Christian reformed church in Kalamazoo. I was living in the YWCA. So he found that out and then that sunday night after church, I was in my room and somebody said,” Somebody is here for you”. So I said “Okay”. I had no idea that it was him. So there was Hank INTERVIEWER: Wow, was it love at first sight? GRAHUIS: Yeah, so that is how we met. BALE: But to put a big picture on it, my dad had a family often right? GRAHUIS: Eight. BALE: Yeah, eight kids. But ten all together. They immigrated when he was sixteen. He was sixteen. GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: So they came over on a big boat, when he was sixteen. And then my mom immigrated when she was twenty five and she came with her brother here to America. GRAHUIS: Yes, my brother was a year younger than I am. BALE: Right. So dad was here already in kalamazoo. GRAHUIS: Yes but I also had uncle John, my brother John, was living here already. And my sister Evelin. They were living here. So we came here from the Netherlands, visiting them. We could stay with them in their home. It was quite something. I was a little homesick at first but thats it. INTERVIEWER: What made up your mind about moving here? What was your motivation for moving here? GRAHUIS: I wanted to see what the United States was like. INTERVIEWER: How old were you when you moved? GRAHUIS: Twenty two. INTERVIEWER: Twenty two? GRAHUIS: I was twenty two years old when I came here. Page 10 �INTERVIEWER: What did you imagine it would be like? GRAHUIS: . INTERVIEWER: Better than It actually was? GRAHUIS: Yeah, I love this country. I am so glad I came here. Of coarse I met my husband here. INTERVIEWER: Did you come over on a boat? GRAHUIS: I flew. INTERVIEWER: Okay cool. GRAHUIS: And my dad paid for the ticket. INTERVIEWER: Oh so You didn’t go with your family? GRAHUIS: Yes my brother. I was twenty two. BALE: Was that Clause? GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: And John was here already. GRAHUIS: Yes, John was here. John was married. And Eveline was here. BALE: Okay, so two siblings were here and you came over with another brother. GRAHUIS: Yep. BALE: So thats four of the nine kids came over to the states. GRAHUIS: And my mom was very sad that so many came to the united states. BALE: Are the other five still there? GRAHUIS: Yeah they have been here but they would rather stay in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Okay, so what else do you remember from the time you were ten years old to the time you were twenty two? Like when exactly was the nazi occupation? GRAHUIS: Oh I was afraid you were going to say something about that. It was in the forties. INTERVIEWER: How old were you when that happened? GRAHUIS: I was In my thirties. I was thirty eight when it was over. BALE: No, how old where you when the war was going on? You were young. GRAHUIS: Well I was born in 1937. Page 11 �BALE: Ok so you were young. You were six. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember anything about that? Do you remember your lifestyle changing? GRAHUIS: Yes, yes. Because we were living in a home and right next to us was a garage where all the germans were in. And so when all the Americans or the English came over, they would shoot at that garage. But also, we were also bombarded because our home was so close to that garage. So if my brother had stayed that night, we were eating supper, my dad was in church work and so he was not home, my mom was only there with all the kids, and if he would have stayed in that chair he would have been killed. Because the bullet went right through the seat. BALE: So did you here the sirens or did you hear the plans come in? GRAHUIS: We heard the plans come in. BALE: So what they did is they went down into the cellar. Everybody left the table and went into the cellar. GRAHUIS: Yes, I fell into the potato salad. Thats why I have such a potato head. INTERVIEWER: So it seems that you were living in fear for a while then, right? GRAHUIS: Yes, we were. INTERVIEWER: And how long did that go on? GRAHUIS: I think it started in forty two and in forty five it was over. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember your diet changing or your lifestyle changing because you didn’t have enough money? GRAHUIS: Well food was hard to get. INTERVIEWER: I remember you saying something about rations. Did you guys have to do that at all? GRAHUIS: Oh yes, definitely. And we had a big family so would have a lot of sugar and there were some families that could not get it. So we would exchange sugar for what they had. Potatoes or whatever. So that was quite a life. INTERVIEWER: But it sounds like money wasn’t, I mean its a struggle without money, but it sounds like it wasn’t really an issue. Like you say you still loved your memories of growing up and everything. GRAHUIS: Yes, I did. INTERVIEWER: So you still had fun even though the Nazis were around. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and I heard how with the bikes they would take the tires. Did that happen to you guys? Page 12 �GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. INTERVIEWER: Why did they do that? GRAHUIS: because they could use the rubber. They were rubber tires and they could use it. INTERVIEWER: So they took it right off your bikes to use it? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Wow. So you had to clatter around on metal wheels for a while? GRAHUIS: Yeah exactly. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember, I mean obviously there was a war going on, but were there any tragedies that hit close to home or to you with friends or anything? GRAHUIS: Yes. Friends, their fathers were transported someplace else. I had a friend and her father was a doctor and he was killed. And of coarse the jews, we had jews in our town. They were picked up. INTERVIEWER: Did you know anyone that was helping them at all? GRAHUIS: Yes, Hanks father was a police man so he hid a lot ofjewish people. INTERVIEWER: That’s really cool. Did he ever get caught? GRAHUIS: No, he did not get caught. And Hank would, on his bike, go to the farmers and pick up milk for the family. INTERVIEWER: What were the nazi soldiers like? Where they mean or did they trouble you guys at all? GRAHUIS: I can not remember much of that. INTERVIEWER: Okay, what did you do for fun around that time? In your free time with your friends and stuff? I know you had a tight knit community and stuff, what did you guys do for fun? GRAHUIS: A lot of things. A lot of little things. INTERVIEWER: Did you guys have any sports you liked to play? I know Opa enjoyed playing soccer. GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Did you guys have anything like that or did you guys just do little hangouts and stuff? GRAHUIS: Bicycling, and of coarse in the winter skating. INTERVIEWER: And did you guys, I don not know if this is like an American thing but did you guys have like snowball fights and build snowmen? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. Page 13 �INTERVIEWER: Okay, I guess a worldwide thing. GRAHUIS: Yep when you have snow you make a snowman. INTERVIEWER: What about Christmas time? Did you have any traditions you used to do? Like, I know you used to put shoes by the door or something like that? GRAHUIS: Yeah I put something in it. Yep we sure did. INTERVIEWER: Now around Christmas time did you have your relatives come over or was it just your family? BALE: What was Christmas like? Christmas day. GRAHUIS: Oh we would decorate the whole room and it was nice. BALE: Did you exchange presents? GRAHUIS: Yes we did. Little gifts. very little gifts because we did not have much money as kids because we did not work. INTERVIEWER: No ipods? GRAHUIS: Nope. INTERVIEWER: Where there any traditions you brought from to the United States from back in the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: Our Dutch cooking. Stumput. INTERVIEWER: What is that? I have never heard of it. GRAHUIS: You put potatoes, you cook potatoes and carrots and you mash them all up. The kids love it. BALE: Potatoes, carrots, onions. GRAHUIS: And onions. INTERVIEWER: Where did that meal come from? Do you remember how it originated into the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: No, i think its more a dutch meal. Interviewer. Okay, because I remember someone, i do not remember who it was, told me that, when they did not have a lot of ingredients and stuff during the war and they had just potatoes, onions and carrots, they were like lets just throw it all into a pot, mash it up and see what come out. And that was stumpot. And Tm glad they did. Its really good. BALE: So your diet was mainly potatoes. very little meat because meat was expensive. GRAHUIS: Oh yeah, we did not eat much meat at all. It as very expensive. BALE: And then the fish. Page 14 �GRAHUIS: fish yeah. BALE: Yes, and dutch cheese. INTERVIEWER: Now did you ever go on to college? Helen: No I did not go to college. I went to high school. INTERVIEWER: Okay, do you have any specific memories from your hight school? GRAHUIS: Yeah we had some things that we did together as a class. We did everything on bicycles. We would go swimming and it was quite a ways away. And we did a lot of biking. So one those days you did not see very many people. INTERVIEWER: And what about jobs? Did you get ajob when you graduated high school? GRAHUIS: No. I did not work. BALE: But you did say you had ajob in Haden that you had to bike to. And that was after hight school. You were in your twenties. Didm’t you have a secretarial job? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. When I was older. BALE: Before you immigrated over. What was that job? GRAHUIS: Ill have to think, what did I do? I worked at an office. INTERVIEWER: Okay BALE: You worked there everyday. Haden was how far from Cronighan? INTERVIEWER: What is that? GRAHUIS: Stumput. INTERVIEWER: I’ve never heard of that. INTERVIEWER: Me Either. GRAHUIS: You have potatoes. You cook potatoes, and carrots, and-uh then you mash them all up. INTERVIEWER: Ooo INTERVIEWER: That sounds good. GRAHUIS: And- the kids love it. BALE: And onions. Potatoes, carrots and onions. GRAHUIS: And onions. Page 15 �INTERVIEWER: And where did that meal come from, like, where did that meal come from? Do you remember, like, how it originated in the Netherlands? (Pause) INTERVIEWER: Okay GRAHUIS: I think its more Dutch. The DutchINTERVIEWER: Okay because I remember someone, I don’t remember who it was, told me that they didn’t, when they didn’t have, like a lot of ingredients and stuff during the war, like and they had just potatoes, onions, and carrots, they were like lets throw it all into a pot, mash it up, and see what comes out. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Uh-huh INTERVIEWER: So they had stumput, GRAHUIS: Uh-huh BALE: Yeah INTERVIEWER: And I’m glad they did. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: It’s really good! GRAHUIS: Uh-huh BALE: So your diet was mainly potatoes, very little meat because meat was expensive. GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. We didn’t eat much meat at all. (Pause) It was very expensive. INTERVIEWER: Um-hm BALE: And the fish. GRAHUIS: Fish. Yeah. BALE: And cheese. GRAHUIS: And cheese. That’s cheese. INTERVIEWER: Um-hm. (Pause) Now did you go to college? GRAHUIS: No. I did not go to college. I went to high school. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-.huh. INTERVIEWER: Do you have any specific memories from your high school? GRAHUIS: Yeah. We had some things that we did together as a class. Page 16 �INTERVIEWER: Mmm GRAHUIS: we would We did everything on bicycles. INTERVIEWER: Mmmmmm GRAHUIS: . We would go to go swimming, andINTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: . It was quite a ways away, and, yeah. We did a lot of a lot of biking, biking. INTERVIEWER: Mm GRAHUIS: Yeah. So in those days you didn’t see very many big people. BALE: (Laugh) INTERVIEWER: Yeah! (Laugh) And what about jobs? Did you get a job when you graduated high school? GRAHUIS: No. I did not work. BALE: But you did say you had a job. In, GRAHUIS: Holland. BALE: that you had to bike to. When, that was after high school though. When you were in your twenties. (Pause) Didn’t you have a secretarial job or ajob that you, I remember you saying that you GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. When I was older. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Yeah. Before you immigrated over. INTERVIEWER: Before you immigrated. Yeah. That’s, yeah. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: What was that job? GRAHUIS: let me think what did I do? (Pause) I worked at an office. INTERVIEWER: Okay BALE: Yup. You’d bike there everyday. GRAHUIS: Um-hm BALE: Howden was how far from Kronian (32:14)? GRAHUIS: five kilometers. Page 17 �BALE: Okay. INTERVIEWER: Hm, Okay. GRAHUIS: And I would go there in the morning, and then for lunch I would come home, and then at one o’clock I would go back. INTERVIEWER: Oh, wow. GRAHUIS: So, it’s a lot of biking. INTERVIEWER: That is a lot. Yeah. A couple miles in everyday. BALE: And you lived at home? GRAHUIS: I lived at home. Yeah. BALE: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And your family got along pretty well together, all of you kids? GRAHUIS: Eh, yeah. Hey, when you’re kids you have to fight once and a while. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I know what that’s like. BALE: I remember GRAHUIS: We’re not perfect. BALE: Yeah. I remember you recently telling me this too that your grandfather lived with you. Your grandfather lived with you. INTERVIEWER: Oh. GRAHUIS: My Mom’s father. BALE: Right, and he didn’t have his own room cuz there were no rooms left over. He would sleep in the, on the couch. GRAHUIS: Yeah on the couch. BALE: On the couch in the dinning room, living room. GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: Okay, and that just, he was part of the family. GRAHUIS: Yeah. That’s where he died. BALE: And that’s where he died. GRAHUIS: Yup. Page 18 �BALE: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yup. Um-hm. That’s right. (Pause) Yup. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember anything about the churches in the Netherlands, like the church you went to? GRAHUIS: Well they’re not like here. Um, in those days we didn’t have our groups INTERVIEWER: Like bible study and? GRAHUIS: Yes. Exactly. Um-hm. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: So it was more for the older people. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Do they have an organ in the church? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. Beautiful organ. BALE: Beautiful organ. GRAHUIS: Um-hm. BALE: Yup. INTERVIEWER: That’s cool. Now about your immigration, do you guys have any other questions about Holland? INTERVIEWER: No. I think we’ve heard a lot. INTERVIEWER: Okay was it uncommon for people to rnove to the United States in the Netherlands, or was it pretty common for people to just head over here? GRAHUIS: It was, yeah. There was a certain time period where a lot of people came to the United States. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Or Canada. INTERVIEWER: Or Canada. INTERVIEWER: And was it just because they wanted to, or was there a reason they were leaving the Netherlands? Page 19 �GRAHUIS: it was, (Pause) it was well, we have big families. You know? Like my aunt and uncle. They immigrated because it wasn’t (Pause) they could feed them here. INTERVIEWER: So a better life? GRAHUIS: Yeah. A better life. INTERVIEWER: Opportunities. GRAHUIS: A much better life especially also going to school. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. GRAHUIS: . They would go to college here or- . So, (Pause) yup. A lot of big families immigrated. Yup. This is a great country. INTERVIEWER: Now, when you came to the U.S. so you boarded a plane from the Netherlands, and where did you... GRAHUIS: Amsterdam. Yup. INTERVIEWER: From Amsterdam. Where did you arrive? Where was your destination in the U.S.? Did you land in like New York or (Pause) where did you land on the flight? GRAHUIS: I think we landed where did we go to? BALE: Probably Chicago. GRAHUIS: Oh! Oh no. Detroit yeah, Detroit. INTERVIEWER: Was your intention always to come to Michigan? GRAHUIS: Yeah because I had a sister and a brother here. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. GRAHUIS: Um-hm. INTERVIEWER: So where did you go? Where did you start living When you got to the U.S.? GRAHUIS: Michigan. INTERVIEWER: Michigan. Like where INTERVIEWER: What city? INTERVIEWER: Like Kalamazoo or? GRAHUIS: Kalamazoo. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and that was, you lived with your brother then? Page 20 �GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: John and Ida. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What was that like? GRAHUIS: John was my oldest brother. INTERVIEWER: Like did you find ajob right away or did you just? GRAHUIS: I also worked here in an office. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-huh, and when did I start driving school bus? BALE: That was way later. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah that was way later. BALE: Didn’t you work at a department store? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: In like, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Didn’t you even model some cloths? Did you model some cloths or? GRAHUIS: Yeah I did. I did. BALE: We should have brought a picture of it. INTERVIEWER: Yeah! I would have loved to see those! BALE: You were very nice looking. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Yeah BALE: Oh well. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: We don’t need to talk about that. (Laugh) Stop. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: So then, was it quite recent after you moved to the U.S. that you met Opa? Page 21 �GRAHUIS: Yes. Uh-huh. Yup. INTERVIEWER: Okay. So was that like a few years after afterwards or? GRAHUIS: He was, oh gosh, he was in, he was in the military? (Pause) Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: I was, let’s see now. Opa was twenty-five when I, when we married, and I was twenty-four. No. He was twenty-four; I was twenty-five. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: So INTERVIEWER: Oh. So you met each other and you got married quite soon after that then. GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-huh. INTERVIEWER: So love at first sight kind of thing? GRAHUIS: Yup. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Right when you walked up to the door? (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: so after you got married what did you guys do after that, like did you move somewhere, or did you get a house. GRAHUIS: Yeah. We got a house, and we had a house full of kids. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Okay. Tell us about that. INTERVIEWER: How many kids do you have? GRAHUIS: Three daughters. INTERVIEWER: Three daughters? GRAHUIS: -him. Monique is the oldest, and then we have Michelle, a year later, and then we have Melissa. BALE: A year later. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Wow! GRAHUIS: So Melissa lives in Australia. Page 22 �INTERVIEWER: Wow. GRAHUIS: And she’s coming here with her husband and their two children in a couple weeks. Right? INTERVIEWER: Mrnm. Yup. I’m looking forward to that. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: To visit or to move? GRAHUIS: To visit. INTERVIEWER: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And what about that family experience? How did that differ from your family experience in the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: I don’t know. What do you mean with that? INTERVIEWER: Well, I mean just, what was your family experience like here I guess? Did you INTERVIEWER: With your husband and your children. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: How did it differ from how you grew up in the Netherlands? INTERVIEWER: Did you have a better lifestyle here would you say or? BALE: Did you have a better lifestyle here? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Definitely. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Oh definitely. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS:huh. Yeah. Yup. INTERVIEWER: And was it ever, I mean, hard with money and anything or? GRAHUIS: No. My husband had a very good job. He went to the Kalamazoo college there. INTERVIEWER: Oh. Yeah. BALE: It’s Western Michigan. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. Page 23 �GRAHUIS: Yeah, and then he got his masters degree in Illinois, Northern Illinois University, and yeah. He had a good job. We had a good life. Yeah, and then Melissa went to Calvin right? INTERVIEWER: Calvin. Oh Yeah. BALE: Um-hrn. GRAHUIS: And you went to Calvin. BALE: Um-hm. GRAHUIS: And Michelle went to Farry, Farris. Farris! BALE: Um-hm. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: So, did you, so you got married, and you lived in Kalamazoo GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: For a few years. Did you live there, now how long did you live in Kalamazoo? GRAHUIS: How long did we live in Kalamazoo INTERVIEWER: Like was it a long time, like did you have all three of your daughters in Kalamazoo? GRAHUIS: No. They were born in Chicago. INTERVIEWER: Okay. INTERVIEWER: Oh really? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Oh we moved all over the place. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. INTERVIEWER: Tell us a little bit about that, like where did you guys, what were the different places you guys lived? GRAHUIS: Okay. That’s up to her. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: She knows better. BALE: So you lived in Michigan for a little bit after you were married. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: And then you moved down to Chicago, where Dad got his masters, and then you started having us. We lived in Chicago for, I remember, about five years ‘cuz when I was kindergarten age we moved back up to Grand Haven, Michigan. Page 24 �INTERVIEWER: Oh. Okay. BALE: And that’s where we settled for, probably until I was in junior high, high school. GRAHUIS: -him BALE: So that’s where we started school, all three of us, and lived in Grand Haven. Yeah, and then we we lived in Grand Haven, and-uh we lived not too far from your sister, Evelyn, and another brother, Klaus, and another brother, John. So all three of the families, all four of the families were in Grand Haven. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: And we were very close with the families. We all grew up together. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Lots of cousins. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: And that was good. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: That was a very good, good growing up. INTERVIEWER: A good few years? BALE: Yup, and when we got together we... everybody would be speaking Dutch. It was all, everything was in Dutch, and our INTERVIEWER: You too Mom? INTERVIEWER: So yeah. You know Dutch as well? BALE: Well I can understand it. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. I didn’t know that. BALE: Yeah we can understand it. GRAHUIS: Melissa’s good at it. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: We didn’t necessarily converse or speak, but it was all Dutch, and Dutch food. during the holidays, our Christrnas especially, we would always look forward to... they make like a specialty. Yeah a Dutch specialty is oliebollen. So it’s INTERVIEWER: Oliebollen, mmrnmm. Page 25 �BALE: Kind of a daylong process of making the dough and rising the the yeast rising it GRAHUIS: Yup. BALE: And it was all made out in the garage. It was GRAHUIS: So you don’t get all that smell in your home. BALE: Yup, and this is very traditional. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: So we would have oliebollen. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. So you guys took home some traditions from back there? BALE: Oh yeah! GRAHUIS: You Dutch. You know that. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I know a lot about the food and stuff, but, and I love the food, but I haven’t heard of that before. I’ve never heard of that before, so. BALE: Oh oliebollen? INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I’ve never heard of that. BALE: Oh very traditional. INTERVIEWER: It’s good. It’s good too. GRAHUIS: Yeah. You fry them in oil. You have a pan full of oil, and you dump the stuff INTERVIEWER: The dough. GRAHUIS: Yeah, the dough. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Now did you, is that when you had your school bus job? GRAHUIS: When did I start INTERVIEWER: In Grand Haven. BALE: You started driving school oh boy. That wasn’t in Georgia. I would say GRAHUIS: No that was in Kalama, in- that was in Grand Haven. BALE: In Grand Haven. Page 26 �GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: Okay. GRAHUIS:huh. INTERVIEWER: When was GRAHUIS: And I was the best bus driver. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: In Grand Haven. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Yeah. The kids loved you. INTERVIEWER: I’m sure. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. GRAHUIS: Although, I could also be INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I heard you had to like, I remember you telling us storied about some of the kids on your bus, like some of them were very unruly, and GRAHUIS: Oh yah. They can be. INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah. So GRAHUIS: Children are children. INTERVIEWER: What age group did you, was it elementary, middle school? GRAHUIS: All age. INTERVIEWER: Oh all? GRAHUIS: Yup. Kindergarteners I had a kindergarten run in the afternoon, at noon, so I liked it, and now I get a little pension. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: So where did you, you said you moved to Georgia? INTERVIEWER: Yeah where does Georgia fall into this? BALE: -hrn. INTERVIEWER: What other places did you move? BALE: We were very sad about that. INTERVIEWER: After Grand Haven? Okay. Page 27 �BALE: We lived in Grand Haven for, after Chicago, five years, we lived in Grand Haven for up until I was about, I would say, tenth grade, and Michelle ninth, and Melissa eighth, and then we, so it was very hard to leave a tight nit family group. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: . INTERVIEWER: That’s a tough time to leave. BALE: Um-hm. I was pretty devastated. So Dad got ajob down in near Atlanta, which is Roswell, Georgia. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. BALE: And so we left the family up in Grand Haven. We moved down to Georgia where Dad worked for a company. We were there for two years living in the south. INTERVIEWER: Oh gees. BALE: Yeah, and then INTERVIEWER: So you graduated there. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: No. I didn’t. INTERVIEWER: Oh no? BALE: Two years later, actually a year... two years later. We lived down there for two years I think. INTERVIEWER: -hm. BALE: And then we moved up to New York. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. You guys have been all over. BALE: And we moved up to New York, and we lived there on Long Island for a year. GRAHUIS: Yup. Long Island. That’s right. INTERVIEWER: Wow. INTERVIEWER: Was this all for his work? BALE: So back up. I think GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Georgia was my ninth grade. I moved in ninth grade to Georgia. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Page 28 �BALE: Ninth and tenth. GRAHUIS: Okay. BALE: Moved up to Long Island for a year, and that was very different ‘cuz we were blonde Dutch people. INTERVIEWER: Yeah! BALE: Living in GRAHUIS: She had boyfriends all over. (Laughs) BALE: We lived in an Italian; I mean it was all Italian. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: And, so those were our friends. INTERVIEWER: Just for the interviews sake, did you guys appreciate all the diversity that was around you or did you ever feel, or was there any sense of segregation ever? Like that’s just one of the questions we were just wondering about with the interviews we’re doing. GRAHUIS: No, no. INTERVIEWER: No sense of segregation? Okay. BALE: I don’t think so. GRAHUIS: No, not at all. INTERVIEWER: Because the U.S. was a very diverse time, very diverse time back then. GRAHUIS: No, I never felt that. INTERVIEWER: And your family, you’ve always been accepting of other races and stuff? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Yeah, I mean we grew up in a very, I mean it was a very Dutch, Western Michigan, so I don’t think. INTERVIEWER: Still is. BALE: We were among our own people. There was not much in Western Michigan diverse wise. In Grand Haven, Kalamazoo, it was mainly Dutch. INTERVIEWER: What about Chicago? BALE: Chicago was a little different. I don’t, I was young so I don’t really remember. in the apartment complex, I don’t remember a whole lot of diversity there. No. Page 29 �INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: But now like Monique, for instance, adopted an American, BALE: African American. GRAHUIS: African American boy. INTERVIEWER: Sean. GRAHUIS: Sean. Sean is our, Eli’s brother. INTERVIEWER: He’s my bro. GRAHUIS: And now she’s adopting two children of Congo. And she’s getting those two children, they are sisters. And she’s getting them in May. INTERVIEWER: That’s great, that’s awesome. That’s really cool. That’s’ really exciting. BALE: So here’s 100% Dutch, 100% Dutch. GRAHUIS: The blondies and the blackies. BALE: Lots of color, lots of color in our family. So yeah, we’ve never felt segregated. INTERVIEWER: So is there any specific memories that either of you have in those three, those five places that you lived? Like because you just told us about the history, Chicago, Georgia, New York, Netherlands, and Grand Haven. Do you have any specific memories of just like, a story or anything? Can you wrap your brain around? GRAHUIS: You probably do being in school. BALE: Specific stories? GRAHUIS: Didn’t you have a little problem in the Netherlands in school? BALE: yeah, I think some of my best memories were in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Some of my best memories were there because we were in a completely different culture. I mean the Netherlands, but we were actually living in Holland. And we were old enough to travel around, so, because I was eighteen we traveled, when you’re in the Netherlands and there’s countries all around you, it’s like traveling to the next state or the next town, because I mean Belgium was, Germany was a few hours, right across the way. We would vacation, we vacationed in Italy and we went to Germany with our youth group. And for a class trip we went to London. And then GRAHUIS: So you would, oh excuse me. Then you would live with other families, didn’t you? BALE: No, not in the Netherlands, not in my high school years. Page 30 �GRAHUIS: Oh okay, oh. BALE: Yeah, so we had the freedom of travelling so it was wonderful, it was wonderful experiencing different culture in my high school years. But yeah, I think those are some of the best memories. And for a specific story, I don’t remember Eli, I’m sorry. INTERVIEWER: Maybe later you can tell me. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay so, you said you moved back to Grand Haven? BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: and then you went off to college and then I’m assuming Aunt Mitchie and Aunt Lizzie went off to college several years after that. So then when then they all left, it was just you and Opa? Now, is that about the time you got a bus driving job? Like I remember BALE: I think during our college years you were bus driving. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Mhm. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And you must have drove buses for a while then because I can still remember when you GRAHUIS: I did, I did. I drove bus for twenty years. INTERVIEWER: Oh my gosh. Wow, that’s a long time. GRAHUIS: Get up at five o’clock in the morning and I pick all those kids up at home. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. GRAHUIS: Oh, especially in the winter time. INTERVIEWER: Was it a fun job though? GRAHUIS: Oh, huh? INTERVIEWER: Was it fun? GRAHUIS: Yeah, I liked it, I enjoyed it. BALE: I think that an important thing for this interview is I a very big thing about being Dutch, and a very big thing that has, from the Dutch culture, I think ingrained in each one of the kids is being hard working and being thrifty. I think both you and dad were very hard working and you instilled that in us. And also spending wisely, being thrifty. This is all from the Dutch culture, because there was not much when you were growing up, there was not much to go around. You just made do with what you had. And you also, Page 31 �you all pulled together, you all had your chores. I remember you each having your chores. Because you had to rely on each other to do the work that had to be done. So that kind of passes on to the generations. Passing on down now to Eli. Your very hard working, aren’t you Eli? INTERVIEWER: Of course I am. So now you live in Grand Haven? GRAHUIS: I live in Grand Haven, yeah. INTERVIEWER: So what do you do now in Grand Haven, how do you spend your days? GRAHUIS: I lay on the couch. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Do you live by yourself? GRAHUIS: I live by myself, yeah. Yeah, my husband died in November ‘08. So yeah. I have, of course, I have three daughters and they moved away she lives in the U.P., Michelle lives in Saginaw, and Melissa lives in Australia. And so I don’t have very much, I have a brother John that was the first one to come here, and he lives in Kalamazoo. Then I have a brother Peter who lives in South Bend. And I have some brothers, two sisters. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And down in Kalamazoo there’s a little community of, that’s branched out from there, right? GRAHUIS: Lot’s of Dutch. INTERVIEWER: Lot’s of our family live down there still? GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: And also, when we were growing up, we took two trips; we took two family trips to the Netherlands. So we were, I think my first trip over to the Netherlands to visit Opa and Oma. which is her folks, was when I was seven, eight? So we would, we would spend, I don’t know how many weeks we were there, three weeks maybe, we would live in, we would vacation over in _____? and we would bike around in Holland and we would get to know the Dutch cousins and get to know the Dutch aunts and uncles. And it was only during those trips that we got to know our Dutch side. because otherwise we didn’t grow know them at all. INTERVIEWER: Except for the few Dutch family you had in Grand Haven? BALE: Over here, right. But our other part of the family was over in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: That was a major part of your family. You really got to experience a major part of your roots. BALE: Right, right. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. Page 32 �BALE: And our second trip, we took another trip, we took two trips, anyways those were wonderful, precious memories. INTERVIEWER: That’s really cool that you got to do that. GRAHUIS: And I took her and my middle daughter, I took them to Australia. INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah, that was recent. GRAHUIS: Last year, January, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah I can remember, just more recent years just all the times we would come to your house, like especially when the Yates were living in Cincinnati. I remember going to your house for Christmas and stuff and the whole family would be there. Go out to Penn Hill, camp in Big Rapids. Go there and yeah, I just remember going to Thanksgiving at your house and just coming down and visiting, going to church with you guys. GRAHUIS: See, those are all wonderful memories, yeah. INTERVIEWER: I remember mom, well I don’t remember you, I remember the video of you guys getting married in the backyard. That’s really fun. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What about big events like, in the news and stuff when you were in, after you moved to the U.S.. Do you remember, like, the Martin Luther King Jr. “I had a Dream” or do you remember all that stuff? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: Do you remember Kennedy being shot? GRAHUIS: Oh yes. Yes. I remember that one, because you were a baby, I was feeding you. And the radio, it said that the president had been killed. BALE: Any other big events? INTERVIEWER: Vietnam War, or? GRAHUIS: No I don’t remember much about that. BALE: Do you remember much about civil rights, mom? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: What was going on in Detroit? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: African Americans? Page 33 �GRAHUIS: I don’t, I’d have to think about it first. BALE: What music? GRAHUIS: Music? BALE: What kind of music were you INTERVIEWER: You love the organ music. BALE: Yeah, Opa was big into organ music. That was also another thing. GRAHUIS: Yeah, I love guitar music. INTERVIEWER: That’s good. GRAHUIS: That’s how he learned. INTERVIEWER: That’s one of the reasons. GRAHUIS: I have two guitars. BALE: We had an old, and this is another part of growing up Dutch, is Dad played the organ, and we had an old pump organ in our house, and he would, all the family would come over, he would pump the organ and we would all sing hymns around the organ. And that’s what we would do when we would all get together. Youd have coffee, or another big Dutch thing is drinks. INTERVIEWER: Wine. GRAHUIS: Glass of wine. BALE: Little glass of wine. GRAHUIS: Like we had last night. We don’t overdo it. Oh no, just a little bit. BALE: We would play the pump organ and we would all sing around the pump organ. People don’t do that anymore. INTERVIEWER: It’s kind of like the American the American idea of singing around the campfire with a guitar and stuff. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah GRAHUIS: Where’s my purse. I need to take my medication. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, my grandma really likes to do that, get around the piano or something and sing songs and stuff. BALE: Oh really? Page 34 �INTERVIEWER: Is your grandma Dutch? Yeah she is. Yeah. BALE: I think that was a big thing with the Dutch is that, and that’s what you did growing up, is that after church, you would go to either your uncles or your aunts and you would all get together for coffee. GRAHUIS: Yeah, we did. BALE: And we’d always have we’d always talk and you’d have cookies and yeah, just gathering and hanging out. INTERVIEWER: Exactly. BALE: And no computers. GRAHUIS: No, no computers. BALE: And the cousins would play together. GRAHUIS: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, good times. INTERVIEWER: Good food and good company. I said good food and good company. That’s great. GRAHUIS: Yeah. So, we should not forget that I have to go to my bible study. BALE: Yeah, she has a gathering to get to. INTERVIEWER: What time? It’s okay. BALE: Six o’clock I have to be at a restaurant. INTERVIEWER: Okay. We’ll make sure, we’ll make sure. Is there anything else you remember from, anything else, anything you want to share, about anything? Anything you want to be written about? Like we’re going to be writing a paper on this. Is there anything you want us to acknowledge? GRAHUIS: . BALE: Can I say something? I remember a very important event which I was able to go with you, was when I was at Calvin, I think it was at Calvin. or I was living in Grand Rapids going to school and you wanted to become a U.S. citizen. So I went down to, down to the courthouse, or I don’t remember, it was in Grand Rapids somewhere, and we went into a big room with many other folks from all different countries. We sat there, we went, we sat through an entire ceremony, and all the flags were represented, and then you receive your American citizenship. That was a really cool time. And you had to say the Pledge of Allegiance. It was really awesome. INTERVIEWER: Did your dad do that too? BALE: He did, but earlier. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Page 35 �BALE: I wasn’t around when dad became a citizen. GRAHUIS: No, dad went into the military. That’s, automatically how you become a citizen. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay, that makes sense. BALE: I also remember you did not graduate from, you never received your diploma from the Netherlands from high school. GRAHUIS: I got it when I came here. BALE: She went into America, you got your GED, you had to study, you had to take a test to get your high school diploma. I don’t know why you never graduated. INTERVIEWER: When did you get your diploma in high school? Were you alive, Mom? BALE: Oh yeah. Oh, I remember mom, I was in, I think I was in junior high or high school. I was in, yeah, you were studying for your GED because you wanted to graduate. INTERVIEWER: But you still had jobs and everything, you know? The difference between now and then. Now you have to go to college to get a job. It’s crazy. How was learning English? Was that difficult? GRAHUIS: Yeah, well I learned that in high school. We take, we learned. BALE: In the Netherlands. GRAHUIS: Yeah, we take German, French, English. All those. BALE: Italian? GRAHUIS: No, not Italian. BALE: Oh I thought you did. INTERVIEWER: So you know them all? GRAHUIS: Well French I don’t, I never kept up. I know German. I know of course English and Dutch. All those languages I studied. INTERVIEWER: That makes sense. So by the time you came to America, you were fluent in English? GRAHUIS: Well, I can’t say fluent. I did my best. INTERVIEWER: You could understand, Okay. Well that’s cool. GRAHUIS: When I came to this country I was living with my sister, and they would they would listen to the radio orthings I didn’t understand, hut you learn. INTERVIEWER: You put yourself in the environment and you kind of learn how it is. GRAHUIS: Yeah, yeah. Page 36 �INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. I think that’s good. Is there anything else you want to share? GRAHUIS: Not that I know of. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: We’ll have another meeting sometime. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. That’s the interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 37 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b10abc3d867c92b3a07cd428e0fe1569.mp3 2dd12b6b79bfc5f986c60c3971c2204d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Grahuis_Helen Title A name given to the resource Helen Grahuis audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grahuis, Helen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cohen, Alissa Frazer, Hannah Byker, Bryce Bale, Eli Description An account of the resource Helen Grahius was born and raised in Haren, Groningen, Netherlands. Later in life, she moved to West Michigan to be with her siblings. She discusses her life in the Netherlands and in the United States. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a1bda66d14e6843e00210a641a2191b2.pdf 7da93ae59ade883956fd2b01e582b03b PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Terrence Harris Interviewers: David Bauer, Eric Pete, Stephanie Homan and Victoria VanDragt Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/23/2012 Biography and Description Terrence is African American and Atheist. He grew up in a neighborhood that is predominately White, Christian. He discusses religion. Transcript The person were interviewing today is Terrence Harris from Grandville, Michigan. We’re going to start by having Terrence tell him about himself. Let’s see. I grew up in Wyoming. shoot. I was born in Grand Rapids. I lived there for about three years, then came to Wyoming which is like a bio-center. Then, I lived there for about eleven years, then moved to good ole Grandville. that was probably when I would say I became the person who I am now because of moving to Grandville. Did you participate in any activities in Grandville, extracurriculars, sports? Yep! I played basketball. I actually got cut from the 7th grade team in Wyoming when I was in Newhaugh. Which is pretty sucked, (Laughter). But, actually I liked Grandville after I made the team in eighth grade. So, I played basketball in high school for all four years, and I played track in high school for two years. How was the atmosphere for sports in Grandville? The atmosphere for sports? Well, pretty good. Not too bad. I would say as far as during the games or during the practices. Like what do you mean? Sure. Now lets just jump right in here. We’re interviewing you because you may have been discriminated. Can you tell us why you may have discriminated in a community like Grandville? Ah. (Laughter). It’s a funny thing and its ironic at the same time. Because when I went to Grandville I was instantly like because I was black which is very, very weird. (Laughter). It’s like “oh, you’re black you’re cool”, and I was like what’s up. (Laughter). I don’t know if it was more discrimination than just an annoying stereotype. I would probably say that was the biggest thing in Grandville. Was stereotypes and, then once certain people get close to you, like a lot of my white friends, when they get to a certain Page 1 �comfort level, then they’ll start to say certain discriminatory things that does not sound so hurtful since I know them. I guess they were just testing the waters to see how I’d react., eighth grade I was very immature. Ninth grade, I was very immature. Tenth grade, ehh. Eleventh grade, I just didn’t give a fuck anymore (Laughter). Twelfth grade, is the person I have become now. Did you ever call your friends out on things they said that may have seemed discriminatory? Let’s see. I would say I have a few times. I will try to not let it get to me. I wanna keep my composure and let them know that I’m not gonna flip out based on something like that. But, you know, after doing a lot of research, a lot of Africans will explode on a situation because of a lost identification of themselves. So, when they’re being branded, you know, something negative, they’ll reject it of course in an ignorant type of way. Like, so I saw this film and this black chick was tripping on a professor because he cannot prove why evolution kills black people. Did you see it? I heard. I actually was gonna watch it but my video player wasn’t working. I saw that and I was like oh my God are you serious and this is why people think all black people are the same because chicks like this. Just put her in jail (Laughter). So, even though some of the way treated had positive connotation did it bother you that you were treated differently at all? Oh yeah! Even though it appeared to be positive? Oh yeah! Yep! There is always gonna be that like üh why is it me type factor. Kinda playing the victims card. it was kind of more of a them getting under skin but I won’t let them get under my skin type of thing. I’m not gonna show that it’s bothering me. So, I’m just gonna keep it cool, keep calm, collective; you know, stuff like that. What were some things that your friends said that may have offended you without them knowing it. Oh man! Just the typical things. Fried chicken, big kool-aid, watermelon. I don’t like watermelon. A lot of people get surprised when I tell them that. Like people say, “why don’t you sag your pants?”. I don’t wanna sag my pants! (Laughter). And that’s why! Does every black person have to sag their pants (Laughter) in order to be black? It seems like there is a certain level of ignorance you have to be in order to earn the title of being black which I was like I’m not gonna snoop down to that level, because I plan on being successful. One of the biggest things that drove me to where I am now, is I told myself when I was twelve years old I would not be another black statistic. You know, going to jail, selling drugs, ain’t got nothing, hardly ain’t got a job. I said flick that! Why would I want to choose that way. So it sounds like you’re almost using your race as a motivating factor for you? Oh yeah. If I were to grow up in Wyoming, if I were to stay there I wouldn’t be the same. I probably would be just like another person that went to Wyoming Park. Not saying that there is not successful Page 2 �people or successful Africans that come or have came from Park, but Grandville was a huge motivator for me. What prompted the move for your family? My mom wanted a better educational system. Wyoming Park did not provide it and my mom saw that and said I guess we’ll go to Grandville, and I was like I don’t want to and she said too bad! Let’s go! (Laughter). All of my friends were in Wyoming, so I didn’t want to do a complete new start, but my mom saw the opportunity and she went out and decided for my sister and myself, and I’m very grateful that she did. Because I don’t know, to be honest I’d probably just be in jail if I would have stayed in Park. A lot of my friends in Park are in jail, selling drugs, ain’t doing much with shit to put it in blatancy terms. I’m a very blunt person. I tell it like it is. I don’t hold back. If you see my Facebook statuses, I don’t hold back. You know Eric. Very true! I don’t play. I’m gonna tell it like it is. Because I don’t believe in holding stuff back. Tm not gonna get to the core issue if, you know, I’m softening it up a bit. We’ll touch on Facebook later (Laughter). Now staying on the subject of education, have teachers ever treated you differently or made assumptions about you. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I would say even a little bit in Wyoming too actually. The thing is, with the teachers I didn’t like, it was kind of like I’m gonna try to work with you, but if you be disruptive a few times I’m gonna brand you, point you out every time, and get you nowhere! (Laughter). And I was a hard headed little boy. Oh my gosh. I feel sorry for the teachers that dealt with me. I’m not even gonna lie. I was a hard headed, knuckle-headed, bad...whatever. I didn’t care and then it carried on to seventh grade when I left, came to Grandville, and there were a few teachers. I’m not sure, I don’t know. Have you ever had Ms. Badgearna? No I don’t know. It was very I think she just hated us all. I mean she hated everyone equally. You guys can blank that one out (Laughter). No, Ms. Badgeama was really cool teacher. I saw her a few years ago and all smiles, nothing bad. High School, wasn’t that bad. I think,, they treat everybody just like it was a college course. Do your work or you’re not gonna get shit. Just plain and simple. High School wasn’t too bad. I think probably Elementary was worst. Would you like to go into Elementary at all? Elementary. Oh man! I remember one memory I have is; a friend of mine, Erika reminded me of this story the other day. I was in class, her name was Ms. Norman, and I just saw her at my job last week. Funny that that happened. Erika, a friend of mine, last week Wednesday told me about that story and reminded. The very next day, I went to my job and I went to get some tea because I love getting tea, free tea, you know come on! And I go to my job and saw her and said holy shit, we were just talking about you last night. And what ended up happening is she, I don’t remember much, like I said I was Page 3 �immature. You know, I had discipline but I chose not to show that I had that discipline. I wanted to act out. I was a little kid. I was a little black kid. Not too many little black kids, you know, stick out, can’t blend in. You’re already not gonna blend it when you’re black (Laughter). I remember I told her, I was like, ‘Man, screaming, you’re just doing this because I’m black”! And I was screaming and I was like crying and shit, but I don’t remember too much but I probably did that. Let’s see, we actually had a black principal in seventh grade, which wasn’t too bad. I think that was one of the only incidents that I’ve had. There were a few others of course, but I don’t remember it too much. Any incidents with coaches? Coaches. Or assumptions? Ahh, no. Fifth grade; there was actually like six black people on the team my fifth grade year. First time I played basketball. seventh grade, nope. I just didn’t make the team seventh grade because I missed the first day of practice. Eight grade I made the team so no prejudice remarks there. Then ninth grade throughout senior year, I performed. So, I don’t think there was much of any prejudice or....I was gonna say prejudice and racism at the same time (Laughter). Pracism! (Group Laughter) Going outside the walls of Grandville high school, in the city of Grandville itself, going to stores, gas stations, anything like that? (Laughter). Was it different for you or tough for you? Oh! I love it! I love when I went to stores in Grandville man! Those mother flickers always think I’m about to steal something. (Laughter). I come up in the store, and I carry my backpack with me everywhere because I’m a huge reader. I read anytime. You never know when you’re gonna get a book. You can be in the store when someone’s you know robbing it and I’ll just kickback and read a book; your ass is going to jail (Laughter). You know I carry bags with me everywhere... .or books in my bag. Oh man, and Grandville’s horrible. It’s horrible. It’s extremely prejudice. God! (Laughter). I can tell you stories of my brothers man, all throughout. It’s,, you gotta watch the eyes, and you can watch it if you’re by any African American; watch like other people’s eyes and you’ll start to see them, or use your peripheral vision, if you’re really good at that, and you’ll see them tend to look maybe do it again, look again and they’ll just do a little of it a few times. I think it’s subconscious. I don’t think they try to do it, but when Africans are portrayed on T.V. as nothing but thugs, gangsters, criminals, drugdealers, thieves, you know, of course they’re gonna think that then. That’s how they portray us in the media. So, that’s the first thing that they think. Any particular stories that you would wanna share? That stands out? Page 4 �Oh, that stands out?, I wouldn’t say Walmart. They pretty much hate everybody. It’s so depressing there. My sister used to work there. It was so depressing! She’d come home with stories and stories. I would say, probably like the local stores. Not too much the local stores. They have to have, or I think they have to have diversity there. So, they just deal with it. Oh! Jenison, good old Jenison. Oh yeah! Everything in Jenison. I ain’t even gonna label something. Everything in Jenison! A little bit in Hudsonville; not too bad. Not that I’ve seen so far because I’m hardily ever out there. I would say those three areas, and my house is right dabbed in the middle too. Did your family experience any of the discrimination or prejudice like right when you moved in to like the neighborhood for example? Not when I moved to when I first moved in, oh man those were probably the worst places I’ve ever lived actually. Not because of prejudice but the landlord was just awful, horrible. In Grandville? Yeah, Grandville! That was the first place we stayed there. I don’t think I’ve ever seen my mom that mad before. My mom is a black Christian lady. (Laughter). They’re supposed to be happy, you know, according to what you see on T.V. of course, and (Laughter). Man, it was horrible. My mom. I was like, “Mom, if you want, I will find somebody, get some drugs, put them in his mailbox and call the cops on him so he can go to jail. But that was just because he was such a shitty landlord. I would say, I don’t think I had any problem with like prejudice. It was more the stereotypes. Of course, you know, we had a few ladies my neighbor downstairs, she used stereotypes. She was like, she said she was trying to hook me up with her daughters, and she was like my daughters real cute and she likes black men. I was like, ok! Cool! I’m ironically black. Did you say that because I am black? How about, she likes an intelligent man. A man who knows how to handle his business; that’s mature; that can handle his own. Nahh, she just would like a black a man. (Laughter). Stuff like that. Like I said, it would just get under my skin, or not anymore. But, I would just brush stuff like that off. Not so much at the place I live now. Oh my gosh! There was this guy who was Hispanic that made the best steak though! Oh my gosh! His name was Robbie too. His steaks were so good! He got deported, but I was so mad, I was so mad. (Laughter). Where do you live now? I live right down the street from where I used to live; Brook Meadow. It’s not too bad. yeah actually that place is not too bad at all actually; it’s a pretty nice place. I don’t think I’ve dealt with anything dramatic there. Now, we met up and our group met up and talked a little bit before this interview, and you told us about a story about what happened in East Grand Rapids. Oh yeth! East Grand Rapids. Yes! Can you tell us about that? (Laughter). Oh man! We came. It was my brother and I. Will, and another guy named Will whom I met for the first time that day; a mutual friend of ours, Sky, and we’re in East Town, you know, just chilling at Page 5 �2 o’clock in the morning. And then all of a sudden, you see like one cop roll by. No big deal. You know, they’re just chilling. They’re always watching the area. Then, another one comes. It’s like 2:01. Another comes. A few more, wow! Something’s going on tonight. (Laughter). So we, you know are just joking around, stating the obvious, but joking about it. And,, they’re just there! They’re not bothering us, they’re just there, and that was the most annoying part. I hate when like cops try to be, like they know that you know that they’re watching, but they’re like you can’t do anything about it. Watch me not do something about it! (Laughter). Man, if I knew my rights back then I would’ve been like excuse me officer is there a problem? No? Pardon me for saying this but get your ass up out of here, or something like that. Man, I think someone probably called the cops on us. We were just chilling though. No, nothing. Weren’t making any trouble, just two in the morning; nothing! But they feel the need for four PT Cruisers or bring like the SWAT team or something. Mr. President, Mr. President! (Laughter). On the subject of that, have you ever had any run-ins with the law, or have you ever had to deal with police officers? Oh my gosh! Look at Grandville man! Of course! Of course! I hate Grandville cops! I’ll get that on the record. I hate Grandville cops. They are the most prejudice mother fuckers I’ve ever met. I got, I say that and when I say that it bs me so much because that gets under my skin. They take their power for abuse so much, and all the one’s I’ve met so far are complete pricks, assholes, and they’ve probably crash their cars a few times from being pricks. I remember let’s see, my brother Carlos was with me when this happened. We were just crossing a bridge and this guy in a PT Cruiser pulls us over and tells us that someone called the cops on us for throwing a rock over the highway. I said, none of us threw a rock over the highway. Backup comes. You know, of course they’ll come for a few black people. Check this out too. Side-note, when you see someone get pulled over, check to see if they’re black. More than likely, you’ll see another cop with them, but if they’re white, only one car. I’ve never seen that happen. I’ve never been around for that so far, anytime. Just watch, Just watch! But, so, the guy pulls up and they’re trying to t us against each other saying all these lies and stuff, saying he said this and he said that. They were trying to get us to commit to something that we did not do., something that I am not a fan of at all, you know, good ole divide and conquer technique. That was one experience. Another one was when it was the whole fam. Me, my brother Carlos, Will, Mo, other Carlos, my cousin, my sister, a few other people, and we were pretending. Now we went to Steak and Shake. We always go to Steak and Shake. They know us there. We practically pay the bills. We went there that often. We pretended to jump our friend Will because you know that’s how we do; we always play around. We actually went to Steak and Shake that night because all of our hearts were broken. My ex cheated on me. My boy, my brother Mo, his ex cheated on him. Will, he, well he was just happy. He was always the happy one! He’s always happy! Never gets anything bad happen to him. I hate that. Well I guess I don’t hate it, but fuck him! (Laughter). But so we were there for that reason, and later on that night, like 3 PT Cruisers, I’m talking about spotlights, flashlights, yelling. Like, dude that’s not necessary! They,, I guess someone in Steak and Shake called saying that we jumped someone and ran, but I was like no! They know us. They know us. We tipped pretty good there too We stopped tipping that night. (Laughter). But yeah they were a bunch of complete pricks. I got pulled over No! This actually happened a month ago. I was walking home from work. I saw a PT Cruiser drive down and then t around and drive back. Page 6 �I’ve seen them six times by the time I walked over the highway. Then, I saw another one because I was taking a note of the number behind the truck, and it was a different one. They went by another three times. Then, when was just getting across the street from where I lived, I saw another one come by and I was like really. I called my mom and I was like, if you don’t see my tonight that’s because I’m in jail about to beat some cops ass! Like that is not even necessary to go back and forth almost ten times. hat’s just, that’s just, I don’t know! Makes abrother wanna really do something! That, that, can you imagine how enraged I felt? To be you know kind of pointed out that strongly. Fuck the Grandville cops! So how many times, have you counted having any problems with police total? Psht, 8 that I can say off the top of my head. How many times have you guys actually done anything wrong? Once And what was that? smokin and drivin. Only time. What happen, would you say you were treated (Yeah) worse because... Actually no that was the nicest cop I have ever met from Grandville. He said he was going to let me go, until his prick boss showed up. And I know when he who he was too, he was the other one, he was the guy that pulled me over that night at Steak and Shake. He was the one that was yelling at us. I remember because of his mustache. (snicker) Yeah that was him, wow, I just now realized that. Buth yea it is, it is besides Grand Rapids cops, Grandville has to be the worst. What about Grand Rapids police makes them worse? I would say because their downtown, were a lot of the Africans are. And they, I feel like they have such a mindset that whenever you see a black dude in the hood, they say ‘get him, he is up to no good’. Grandville give at least one percent of the downtown, at least, Er,, Grand Rapids cops none. Yeah. When I actually went to jail,h, last year forh smoking and drivin, heh, one of the guys that I was with in my holding cell he said that we wasn’t doin nothing. He just got,h, for jay walkin. Jay walkin, Two in the morning. Two in the morning! Jay walking! For real? Take him to jail for that? WOAH! I didn’t know that you get pulled over for that. Haha I thought the most that they could give you was like a ticket. Like a fine. I think he didn’t know his rights, I think that what it was. I think heh,h, did a little selfincriminating himself, maybe he had a pass, maybe he had a warrant or something. But,h, but for jay walking. What is that? So go to jail, I was like dang man. When did you start paying attention to your rights and like your experiences with the cops and being able to stick up for yourself? Page 7 �Umm it was, man, it was like last year, soh, I would say after the judge after he told me aft... I would say, NO! it was my first probation check-up. I just got off probation yesterday actually Wooh! Congratulations. Thank you very much, never wanna do that system again.I would say right after probation because you know in my mind, Yeah. I should say in my mind I chose to justify what I did. You know that I shouldn’t happen driving while I was high but still don’t let, don’t even let me get started on why it should be illegal. Don’t let me get started. I will run, I will run every single fact. You know to Chad, who was my probation officer, why marijuana should not be legal. Or Illegal or at least decriminalized because it is just a herb. It will beat out the pharmacy industry (Snap) just like that, because you can grow it. Boom. There goes all these pharisaical industries that making millions of dollars off that. You know to keep us sick constantly. Now how many deaths has marijuana had, Zero. How many from overdosing on pills? I can’t count on my hands because I don’t have that much. What they say like ten people, or at least like 10 people die every hour from overdosing on pills? That’s a fucked up statistic right there. NowI started paying attention to after that, that mindset. And I was like, h something’s not right. Why are we, why am I kind of in this bondage right here. This is a system set up to fail. Not just for Africans, but for minorities. Or I wouldn’t say minorities because the people who concerned this land was minorities themselves. So I would say the natives. System set up to enslave the natives once more. Because Christopher Columbus he came here and how many Native Americans did he kill? Whoo. And then they want to label them the illegal immigrants. For real. Haha. So after that, after that I was like I need to learn my rights because the constitutional, or well our constitutional rights that we have or so called constitutional rights, I need to know those. Because I have no idea that I could have told the officer, no do you have a warrant to search my car officer. If I would have said that I would have been good. Constitutional rights. Did not know that at all. So I was like I need to start educating myself on the land that I live. If this is, if this is really a system set up to fail for myself I need to know, I need to learn the rules, I need to learn how to play the game. So at least learn how the game works and thankfully a manager at Art Van thath, that helped me understand that. I was like, yeah learn my rights, I learned a whole bunch. flaha. I learned a lot and that is what, now that I am off probation,I know my rights. And I know what I can and cannot do. And I cannot say, and I will exercise every single rights that I have. Haha That’s so good because I cannot say that I, that I know my rights, to where if! was pulled over or something like that. I kinda wondered the same thing like I didn’t know any of my rights at all. Until I would say some time last year me and a couple buddies were just drinking in the dorms and we didn’t even have to let the cops in. And like they were saying all this stuff like oo you have to let us in like making us like rethink like what we were doing like you have to let us in. Like if you don’t right now we will break down the door. We were like shit. You know they came in there we were being completely cooperative and gave them all the alcohol we had. And they still gave us all MIPs and shit. Mhm. So I mean form like that moment on we were all like shit we need to learn like all the stuff about underage drinking and all that. Just so that like all that stuff doesn’t happen again.uu. I mean I agree with you, I mean like it is almost like not just for minorities but the system sets up to fail you just... Page 8 �Anyone who is ignorant, anyone. I would say defiantly to that to, that was like abE. Like when you go to parties, you know people are freaking out. Oh my god cops are here! Cops are here! Everybody runnin, just dippin out. Yea and what they don’t know is unless they have a warrant they can’t do anything. Exactly. Yeah you give them permission to come in. That’s a whole different topic right there. Haha right. Shifting gears, you originally, yeah we are just going to forget Segway’s. You when back to Grandville High School recently and an interesting observation you told us about a few weeks ago, about the stair case. Oh yea man, we had, we called it the cool, it was where all the cool cats went. You know. Wasn’t even discriminating against no blacks whites man. You know blacks are supposed to skip because they don’t like to go to class. Minorities come and so we are all just chillin back over there probably abouthh two and a half months ago they sealed it up. And I know that I was because it was all a bunch of minorities there you know blacks whites also. and everybody was just chilling there. I would say it was race motivated but covered up very well. You know just like they always do with everything. Haha. It is very, you know it is a distraction. Well why is it a distraction? Because you just a talking too loud about standing there. Some people have KCDC they get out of class and they would just go and chill you know like right below the stairs. You know it’s not that much of a distraction, kind of like when I I think that they were afraid. Actually I think that some of the people on the staff were afraid of a littleethnicity. I have like when I have a keffiyeh I don’t know if you ever saw it but I have like a keffiyeh wrapped around just like this you know it is cold. Seven in the morning ya’ll got, ya’ll told me I had to be here at seven in the morning. I am going to wear something to keep myself warm. I’m sorry, I don’t wanna come here in the first place. Hah. Who wants to go to high school at seven in the morning. I remember Mr. Vanderslice started chasing me down because I was like no I’m not taking it off. NO! It was a shirt, it was a shirt on top of my head. That’s what it was. I had a shirt on top of my head. That’s stupid! That’s what I am saying! I had a shirt on my head, and one of the ambassadors, chased me all the way to my class just to yell at me. And you best believe that I did not just step back. I was yelling right back. Thankfully my mind, the thought in my mind was to check out the rules. You know, understand everysingle rule, and use that against him. I was like naw there aint nothing against that code book. Your wrong, it does not say that I cannot wear something on my head that’s not seven. Lets see school starts at 7:15 and it aint 7:15 yet. So I don’t have to take the shirt off. Couldn’t do nothing about it. School started at 7:50 7:50 yeah. Couldn’t do nothing about it, I was like ppht, what are you going to do? Violate it I dare you! Page 9 �So was the anything about the shirt, or was it just a regular shirt? Plain old white t-shirt man. I just wearin it on my head, just wearin it on my head. Now moving on to the keffiyeh. Which is? Which is Middle Eastern, soyou know automatic I am Muslim. So people think automatically he is a terrorist. You know lets get, it out of the way. Anytime anyone is wrapping a keffiyeh around their head, in fast the wrap it around their heads because there’s deserts snow storms, So in order to keep the snow, ornot snow Sand storms Stand storms yeah, so they want to keep the sand out of their face. Well its Michigan, it snows I wanna keep the snow out of my face. So I used to water that tornm, when I walked in, everybody’s lookin at me. Whats he doin? Muslim. He is a terrorist. Because that all the, that’s all the media labels them. So we see Muslim terrorist, let’s be honest, let’s be real. Hahah. That’s all they see. They made a big deal about that. I was like yo, it’s not 7:50 yet. I’m not taking it off. You know this is a, I’m not Muslim or Islam, buth I do respect their culture. It is part of my history because remorse. So as part of my history, I embrace all of my culture, not just a little bit of it. So, they couldn’t do nothing about that either. Fight the power. Yeah you mentioned like the media, and how minorities seem to be misrepresented in it.do you have any thoughts about how that could change or, if it can change? Oh man was have to go to the core then because how that started was actually a break off from the Crow laws. That is how they got that in there. They intertwined Jim Crows laws with the media so that whenever someone sees a black person the automatically, you know subconsciously he is up to no good. Yeah like stereotypes Yeah exactly. He is automaticallyh, you know a grand banger. He is automatically high as hell right now. He is black, he is supposed to smoke weed. Dark lips, big dark lips you know. Lie Obama, what is it with Obama, they said that he had weed lips or something like that. I don’t remember, but they they put that, they attached that stereotype to him as well. In order to beat something like that you gotta take down the media because they have control of the mass. Everybody watches TV, everybody watches TV. So if everyone is tuned in on this psychological brainwash machine. Of course everybody is going to think that black person, he aint up to no good, no good at all. So I would say yeah, to, I like to get to the very core of everything I don’t like to,racism isn’t here you know it is 2012 we all matured (In a sarcastic voice). Really? Did you just tune into the Zimmerman case? Why aint he in jail? He shot and killed a 17 year-old who had a bag of skittles. For one the dude was 28 years-old. He shot him dead in a gated community, which was predominantly white in Florida, And why isn’t he in jail. This kid was 17 years-old and he is dead, isn’t that murder? Supposedly he is the head watchman of the, you know the supervising, you know that watch ting. So to say that racism isn’t still here in the United States, that is Page 10 �ridiculous. Racism is still here. It is just in a different way. It is just like energy. Energy was never created of destroyed, it was transformed. Racism was BOOM right in your face, now it’s you know transformed into this thing called the media and I lables every single race, not just blacks, Latinos, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, even American, everything! They have got a label for everyone. And why are we trying to be labels, im not trying to be labeled. I wanna created my own identity. That’s the problem, nobody has their own identity. On the subject of identity, earlier you said you talked about stuff that was part of your heritage. You are obviously very proud of you African American heritage. And one way you show it is through your Facebook name. It is very unique. Would you like to tell us what it is? Oh yea that’s why I tell people anytime they wanna find me on Facebook, you will not find me. I will find you. Hahah. My name on Facebook is Brotha Taffiti Savo Hakeema Jafarr . And the reason why I chose that name was it is the name Hakeema is Swahili for wisdom, and I have that tattooed on my back from shoulder blade to shoulder blade. I believe in that so heavily because without wisdom, or the name Taffiti means knowledge seeker and Savo means order and Hakeema is wisdom so you know with the right knowledge and wisdom comes order, creating your identity basically. And that propelled me into what I want to do. It gave me a new foundation for myself. how to give like a new label for myself. And not even a label but to just know who I am period. You know, growing up as a child where are all of the black figures. There are hardly and African doll figures. Identity crisis right there. You know you want to get your niece a doll, but there’s only white ones. Not saying there is anything wrong with white ones, but why give a white one to a black one who is constantly seeing all this propaganda against blacks. You know, she has no idea who she is, she is getting this false identification of herself. So just right away that shows the importance of a diverse. You know be a little diverse. Why have too much ofjust one thing? Spread it out, shave to love. You know? Share the wealth, or at least get another black baby doll damn. Put that on the store shelves jeeze (laughing). Just change it up a little you know, that all a brotha can ask. There is one other thing about you that makes you unique. Especially for Grandville is that you are Atheist.and Facebook is the biggest, most notable way that you talk about it. Have you, has anyone ever called you out on it? Oh man we have a different idea that goes against the traditional or mainstream way, no everybody believes this, but that one idea that is controversial to everyone else. It was like what’s up with this guy. What’s wrong with him?I wasespecially, I wouldn’t say. Well I learned actually that there are different forms of Atheism. There is an Atheism that does not believe in a god at all, or super natural things. And there isthe atheism that does not believe in the three main traditional religions, the Abrahamic religions, Islamic, Christianity and Judaism. That came for a lost identification of myself. I grew up as a Christian, you know my mom told me that I was going to church, I was going to like it, no if ands or buts. As a little kid I was like I have to, and ah I went not because I wanted to but because I had to. And it never gave me a change tochose what I wanted to believe in. and the problem with a lot of religions, the problem I would say is just based on my research, a lot of people do not do research on religions or what they believe. A lot of people go to history. People don’t wanna research the dark things, the positive and Page 11 �negative. Everybody is looking as the positive, which is great cool, but if you’re not looking at the negative... Well remember if you do not know you history, then you are going to repeat it. People repeating history because of their lack of knowledge, with is also the Facebook thing. Every time a see Taffiti is motivates me. Knowledge seeker you know, that’s what I am. Keep studying, keep reading, keep bringing books everywhere. Nothing is going to stop me. And that was one of the biggest thing I ever had to do. Was let go of my belief of Christianity because it was a grips of fear if you do not believe in a doctrine, you are going to hell. Who wants to go to hell? Somebody raise they hands if they wanna go to hell. (nobody moves) Exactly! That was the biggest thing for me, I had to let go of the fear of risking my sole that is eternal in an eternal place where you die even though you are already dead. You di even more I guess. So I did a lot of research of the translations of hell You know all the translations of Hebrew of actually Arabic to Hebrew to Latin to English; you know studying all those words because I am a big studier. I study every single word, I don’t do broad things. If I am going to check Genesis 101 I will check every single word in every single translation. I will get the idea, I am not just going to go skating by. That’s what most people do, well I have the King James version so. Well did you know King James was a really wicked dude. He performed bestiality, he was extremely in to.. I forgot what it was. But the dude rewrote the bible to keep his throne in power. Now anybody that reuses, or rewrite something against his or against his people or against his power, not going to be like woah what did he change so he could keep his power? A lot of people change things, I like to get to the source, like I said to the core. And I found my identity you know the furthest that I have researched so far, which is Egypt, also the Comets. The traveled for Ethiopia to Sudan, followed the Nile River and the landed in Egypt, or Comet at the time. And that is the my belief system because that is the very core that I have seen so far and it may change. I love when my, what I believe in is challeneged, because that gives me the chance to learn because I get to see another area. So that yeah especially going to Grandville to, you know there morals are all white and Christian. But my joey spiritually has not started since last year. No it was probably about a year and a half. So I would say if I want to Grandville High School with the knowledge that I have now shit would be completely different. I would probably be in college right now. Well I would be in college actually right now if I didn’t break my wrist. Was there a certain like factor that like caused you to start studying and following Atheism? Umm I would say that, I would say that I am very passionate about the black community If there is somebody that doesn’t know this I love who I am. I love being black. I love being who I am not say that being not black isn’t cool. That is just who I am and I would say that I was I questioned what is wrong with the black community today. We are not educated, we do not know our own history, I cannot even find or think of any history class that taught me that starting civilizations in Africa. I had to figure that out on my own. They didn’t tell me that my ancestors where ancient Egyptians were astrology came forum, and mathematics, and a lot of the Greeks got their information from Ancient Egypt. Where Plato always referred to Ancient Egypt. I was not told that a lot of the three religions are deep rooted in African traditions. So I questioned that. And I didn’t really have a bone to pick with Christianity so I was really upset that no one ever told me what was really going on. Because my mom didn’t know, she didn’t ask those questions. My mom actually grew up on Rockford, Oh my god my whole family actually grew up in Rockford. Now they are my age, the grew up in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s so I don’t think that they Page 12 �had time to think about that, They were having a hard enough time just getting through the day in Rockford. So I questioned my community, and the thing is they were mentally brainwashed through generations and generations and generations of slavery. A lot of Africans don’t know that their ancestors were already here before Columbus was here. I’m not talking about the Native American. I’m talking about the Africans that traveled from Africa to America and was here before Christopher Columbus came here and slaughtered them all. There’s a Holocaust that’s worst then the Jewish Holocaust. They didn’t teach me that. I can’t even tell you how many of millions of millions Columbus killed. This mother fucker got his own national day! What is going on? I’m celebrating Christopher Columbus in elementary school and I ain’t learn that this dude killed how many of my people? Did that go over your head America? (Laughter). Oh yeah by the way you know. After that I was just like wow this is bullshit I wanna learn a lot. That’s what did it. That’s what sparked that into me and I was like I gotta make my brother and sisters, I have taken it on my own personal mission to educate as many Africans, brothers and sisters, as we can. Not limited to Africans but that’s my field of study right now. So that’s what I have to focus because if one particular group is lacking you know in success and everything then that creates an off balance you know? If I can be the foundation or the starting black for that to happen then cool you know. That’s very interesting that you say that you wanna try to educate as many African Americans as you can. What means or steps are you taking to do that? Right now? Learning. Only thing I can do. I can’t teach them if I don’t know them yet. So I have to learn every single thing or as much as I can at least. The history, all the contradictions, even what I believe I have to study the contradictions against that so I can make sure that’s the right information. If Tm learning you know everything started in Africa you know blah blah blah, and Tm being hard headed for that then if Tm not having any information to go against that, then I’m just blindly following this just because I’m solely for it but if I have you know a pro and a con, you know and I can make a wise or intelligent decision based on that fact you know then I’m pretty good for it. You know ask me anything that might contradict and I’ll probably know the answer to it and I can probably overcome that projection because that’s what I study. Have any of your friends that you have shared some of your knowledge with, what is their reaction to it? Are they interested in it? Do the believe it? Man, let’s see. I would say who? More specifically my brothers and sisters or like white friends I have? Yeah Let’s start with family I guess Oh I’m always educating my mom and sister constantly. That’s kind of why they’re upset that I’m moving because I have studied a lot I think and there hasn’t been a day in the past two years that I have not been studying. I am a hard core studier. I have a fiery passion to learn and a lot people don’t do that. Especially in the black community it is considered geeky or nerdy, or they will call you one of them smart niggers. What does that mean? I’m a smart what? So it’s not cool to know you shit but it’s cool to be in jail acting all stupid, shooting you own brothers and sisters, calling your sisters hoes, bitch. Calling them Page 13 �all these names that aren’t necessary, but yet that’s cool? For real? Dog you’ve been brain washed so good and I’ve been teaching my whole family and my mom and sister. Every time I have family come home from Georgia I always give a little bit more knowledge you know. Even going out to my brothers, my brother Carlos I’m always teaching him. Sharing stuff that I’ve learned. Even if it contradicts that he’s learned but that’s the best part you know? Not forcing stuff that I know in his head, but going check this information, what have you learned about this? Does it seem right? Does it contradict? Let’s get an answer for this. My brother Will, smartest mother fucker I know so far. I think it’s because he’s half black and half white. I think that’s what it is. He has the perfect balance. (Laughter). He’s very crucial, fucking hard headed, he has facts. He’s been home schooled actually. He’s been reading since he was ten years old. I’ve only been reading, legitimately reading, for like two years now. So I have an eight year gap to catch up to him. Motivation. Pure motivation right there. What about when you tell your friends of what you know? Black or white. Leave that to Facebook my friend. Facebook, like I said I don’t hold back. I say it like it is. Why hold back you know? I’m not gonna put like a band aid solution on things I’m just gonna tell it raw. In my past I’ve been very stupid and ignorant, and one-sided with my posts just because I was in that mind where I was rebellious or I was rebellious to you know Christianity just point blank, but that’s because I’ve always known you know? I’ve only met you know certain Christians that are like love Jesus, stop saying blah, stop smoking blah. devil is real blah, you’re going to hell you know? Well fuck you. Some were my family. Some were my friends. So it was a really tough time for me. So after that, I was like hmm let me re-think this? You know, I’m acting just like the people that I do not like. So i completely re-switched the way I come out with information and it’s actually helping out. People are actually seeing it from my point of view now. Questioning. Why? Why is everything like this? That’s the big thing, questioning. You don’t question, you won’t get answers, and when you question everything until you can’t question why no more. There you go. That’s the core. When you tell a religious person that you’re Atheist what’s the typical response from them? Oh, you know I don’t even tell people I’m Atheist. Actually, it’s so funny I was on the bus before and there was this white dude and I don’t what put, what, I don’t know. It was just out of nowhere. I’m just on the bus listening to my music. You know, jamming. Out of nowhere he goes are you Christian? Im like no. Why? And this is in my time when I’m like completely anti- Christian and I’m like blah blah I don’t wanna hear it. Stop forcing this shit. Get out of my face. Stop! Stop! You know, he was just like talking about Jesus stuff like that. I was like cool, cool. Stop forcing it down. Stop. I’m gonna tell you a little bit something about yourself or about your religion and you’re not gonna like it so chill, and he got off the bus. See, I said it nicely, you know, but that kinds of like what I was giving him. I dropped a little bit of knowledge and he couldn’t even understand what I was talking about. A lot of people don’t know about Jesus. What is Jesus? Jesus comes from, if you look at the history of words, Jesus comes from the Greek god Zeus and Jahova, the Hebrew word for god. They put Jahova and Zeus together and it’s Jesus. That wasn’t his name because he spoke in Arabic at that time. Arabic is basically Hebrew. The Hebrew word that they translated from Christ which was Greek for one who’s anointed his real name was Oshua. There’s no J in the Hebrew Bible so how can his name be Jesus if there was no J in the Hebrew Bible? Oshua was his name and he didn’t even know that. So I was like people don’t research their own history. They don’t look in those dark corners. Page 14 �Going back a little, back into the family issue, you talked about earlier how your mom is a dedicated Christian. More specifically, how did she deal with you converting to Atheism? I told her gently, slowly, very calmly. Me and my mom are extremely close. She is the only female who has not broken my heart. So I’m like big ups to you Mom. Single parent you know? My dad’s out doing his own shit. He was not a big factor in my life except for buying me a lot of shoes. Go dad! Thanks for the shoes. Like I said, my mom and I are really close so wow, that was tough. I was like, I don’t know how to tell you this Mom, but I don’t believe in what you believe in anymore, but I still love you, but I’m not going to hell because I know this. Don’t judge. But, you know, it was not tough, it was really hard actually. That was the probably the toughest three months I’ve ever had, was constantly thinking, how can I tell her without being extremely upset. My mom cried because Kia got a tattoo. Now, she is definitely not gonna like when I tell her I don’t believe in Christianity. I was like holy shit. So you know Kia has a daughter. Beautiful, beautiful daughter. So how many times, have you counted having any problems with police total? Psht, 8 that I can say off the top of my head How many times have you guys actually done anything wrong? Once And what was that? smokin and drivin. Only time What happen, would you say you were treated (Yeah) worse because... Actually no that was the nicest cop I have ever met from Grandville. He said he was going to let me go, until his prick boss showed up. And I know when he who he was too, he was the other one, he was the guy that pulled me over that night at Steak and Shake. He was the one that was yelling at us. I remember because of his mustache. (snicker) Yeah that was him, wow, I just now realized that. Buth yea it is, it is besides Grand Rapids cops, Grandville has to be the worst. What about Grand Rapids police makes them worse? I would say because their downtown, were a lot of the Africans are. And they, I feel like they have such a mindset that whenever you see a black dude in the hood, they say ‘get him, he is up to no good’. Grandville give at least one percent of the downtown, at least, Er,, Grand Rapids cops none. Yeah. When I actually went to jail,h, last year forh smoking and drivin, heh, one of the guys that I was with in my holding cell he said that we wasn’t doin nothing. He just got,h. for jay walkin. Jay walkin, Two in the morning. Two in the morning! Jay walking! For real? Take him to jail for that? WOAH! I didn’t know that you get pulled over for that. Haha I thought the most that they could give you was like a ticket. Like a fine. I think he didn’t know his rights, I think that what it was. I think heh,h, did a little self incriminating himself, maybe he had a pass, maybe he had a warrant or something. But,h, but for jay walking. What is that? So go to jail, I was like dang man. Page 15 �When did you start paying attention to your rights and like your experiences with the cops and being able to stick up for yourself? Umm it was, man, it was like last year, soh, I would say after the judge after he told me aft... I would say, NO! it was my first probation check-up. I just got off probation yesterday actually Wooh! Congratulations. Thank you very much, never wanna do that system again. Umm I would say right after probation because you know in my mind, Yeah. I should say in my mind I chose to justify what I did. You know that I shouldn’t happen driving while I was high but still don’t let, don’t even let me get started on why it should be illegal. Don’t let me get started. I will run, I will run every single fact. You know to Chad, who was my probation officer, why marijuana should not be legal. Or Illegal or at least decriminalized because it is just a herb. It will beat out the pharmacy industry (Snap) just like that, because you can grow it. Boom. There goes all these pharisaical industries that making millions of dollars off that. You know to keep us sick constantly. Now how many deaths has marijuana had, Zero. How many from overdosing on pills? I can’t count on my hands because I don’t have that much. What they say like ten people, or at least like 10 people die every hour from overdosing on pills? That’s a flicked up statistic right there. NowI started paying attention to after that, that mindset. And I was like, h something’s not right. Why are we, why am I kind of in this bondage right here. This is a system set up to fail. Not just for Africans, but for minorities. Or I wouldn’t say minorities because the people who concerned this land was minorities themselves. So I would say the natives. System set up to enslave the natives once more. Because Christopher Columbus he came here and how many Native Americans did he kill? Whoo. And then they want to label them the illegal immigrants. For real. Haha. So after that, after that I was like I need to learn my rights because the constitutional, or well our constitutional rights that we have or so called constitutional rights, I need to know those. Because I have no idea that I could have told the officer, no do you have a warrant to search my car officer. If I would have said that I would have been good. Constitutional rights. Did not know that at all. So I was like I need to start educating myself on the land that I live. If this is, if this is really a system set up to fail for myself, I need to know, I need to learn the rules, I need to learn how to play the game. So at least learn how the game works and thankfully a manager at Art Van thath, that helped me understand that. I was like, yeah learn my rights, I learned a whole bunch. 1-laha. I learned a lot and that is what, now that I am off probation,I know my rights. And I know what I can and cannot do. And I cannot say, and I will exercise every single rights that I have. Haha That’s so good because I cannot say that I, that I know my rights, to where if! was pulled over or something like that. I kinda wondered the same thing like I didn’t know any of my rights at all. Until I would say some time last year me and a couple buddies were just drinking in the dorms and we didn’t even have to let the cops in. And like they were saying all this stuff like oo you have to let us in like making us like rethink like what we were doing like you have to let us in. Like if you don’t right now we will break down the door. We were like shit. You know they came in there we were being completely cooperative and gave them all the alcohol we had. And they still gave us all MIPs and shit. Mhm. So I mean form like that moment on we were all like shit we need to learn like all the stuff about underage drinking and all that. Just so that Page 16 �like all that stuff doesn’t happen again.uu. I mean I agree with you, I mean like it is almost like not just for minorities but the system sets up to fail you just... Anyone who is ignorant, anyone. I would say defiantly to that to, that was like ahh. Like when you go to parties, you know people are freaking out. Oh my god cops are here! Cops are here! Everybody runnin, just dippin out. Yea and what they don’t know is unless they have a warrant they can’t do anything. Exactly. Yeah you give them permission to come in. That’s a whole different topic right there. Haha right. Shifting gears, you originally, yeah we are just going to forget Segway’s. You when back to Grandville High School recently and an interesting observation you told us about a few weeks ago, about the stair case. Oh yea man, we had, we called it the cool, it was where all the cool cats went. You know. Wasn’t even discriminating against no blacks whites man. You know blacks are supposed to skip because they don’t like to go to class. Minorities come and so we are all just chillin back over there probably abouthh two and a half months ago they sealed it up. And I know that I was because it was all a bunch of minorities there you know blacks whites also. and everybody was just chilling there. I would say it was race motivated but covered up very well. You know just like they always do with everything. Haha. It is very, you know it is a distraction. Well why is it a distraction? Because you just a talking too loud about standing there. Some people have KCDC they get out of class and they would just go and chill you know like right below the stairs. You know it’s not that much of a distraction, kind of like when I I think that they were afraid. Actually I think that some of the people on the staff were afraid of a littleethnicity. I have like when I have a keffiyeh I don’t know if you ever saw it but I have like a keffiyeh wrapped around just like this you know it is cold. Seven in the morning ya’ll got, ya’ll told me I had to be here at seven in the morning. I am going to wear something to keep myself warm. I’m sorry, I don’t wanna come here in the first place. Hah. Who wants to go to high school at seven in the morning. I remember Mr. Vanderslice started chasing me down because I was like no I’m not taking it off. NO! It was a shirt, it was a shirt on top of my head. That’s what it was. I had a shirt on top of my head. That’s stupid! That’s what I am saying! I had a shirt on my head, and one of the ambassadors, chased me all the way to my class just to yell at me. And you best believe that I did not just step back. I was yelling right back. Thankfully my mind, the thought in my mind was to check out the rules. You know, understand everysingle rule, and use that against him. I was like naw there aint nothing against that code book. Your wrong, it does not say that I cannot wear something on my head that’s not seven. Lets see school starts at 7:15 and it aint 7:15 yet. So I don’t have to take the shirt off. Couldn’t do nothing about it. School started at 7:50 7:50 yeah. Couldn’t do nothing about it, I was like ppht, what are you going to do? Violate it I dare you! Page 17 �So was the anything about the shirt, or was it just a regular shirt? Plain old white t-shirt man. I just wearin it on my head, just wearin it on my head. Now moving on to the keffiyeh. Which is? Which is Middle Eastern, soyou know automatic I am Muslim. So people think automatically he is a terrorist. You know lets get, it out of the way. Anytime anyone is wrapping a keffiyeh around their head, in fast the wrap it around their heads because there’s deserts snow storms. So in order to keep the snow, ornot snow Sand storms Stand storms yeah, so they want to keep the sand out of their face. Well its Michigan, it snows I wanna keep the snow out of my face. So I used to water that to when I walked in, everybody’s lookin at me. Whats he doin? Muslim. He is a terrorist. Because that all the, that’s all the media labels them. So we see Muslim terrorist, let’s be honest, let’s be real. Hahah. That’s all they see. They made a big deal about that. I was like yo, it’s not 7:50 yet. I’m not taking it off. You know this is a, I’m not Muslim or Islam, buth I do respect their culture. It is part of my history because remorse. So as part of my history, I embrace all of my culture, not just a little bit of it. So, they couldn’t do nothing about that either. Fight the power. Yeah you mentioned like the media, and how minorities seem to be misrepresented in it.do you have any thoughts about how that could change or, if it can change? Oh man was have to go to the core then because how that started was actually a break off from the Crow laws. That is how they got that in there. They intertwined Jim Crows laws with the media so that whenever someone sees a black person the automatically, you know subconsciously he is up to no good. Yeah like stereotypes Yeah exactly. He is automaticallyh, you know a grand banger. He is automatically high as hell right now. He is black, he is supposed to smoke weed. Dark lips, big dark lips you know. Lie Obama, what is it with Obama, they said that he had weed lips or something like that. I don’t remember, but they they put that, they attached that stereotype to him as well. In order to beat something like that you gotta take down the media because they have control of the mass. Everybody watches TV, everybody watches TV. So if everyone is tuned in on this psychological brainwash machine. Of course everybody is going to think that black person, he aint up to no good, no good at all. So I would say yeah, to, I like to get to the very core of everything I don’t like to,racism isn’t here you know it is 2012 we all matured (In a sarcastic voice). Really? Did you just tune into the Zimmerman case? Why aint he in jail? He shot and killed a 17 year-old who had a bag of skittles. For one the dude was 28 years-old. He shot him dead in a gated community, which was predominantly white in Florida, And why isn’t he in jail. This kid was 17 years-old and he is dead, isn’t that murder? Supposedly he is the head watchman of the, you know the supervising, you know that watch ting. So to say that racism isn’t still here in the United States, that is ridiculous. Racism is still here. It is just in a different way. It is just like energy. Energy was never created of destroyed, it was transformed. Racism was BOOM right in your face, now it’s you know transformed into this thing called the media and I lables every single race, not just blacks, Latinos, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, even American, everything! They have got a label for everyone. And why are we trying to be labels, im Page 18 �not trying to be labeled. I wanna created my own identity. That’s the problem, nobody has their own identity. On the subject of identity, earlier you said you talked about stuff that was part of your heritage. You are obviously very proud of you African American heritage. And one way you show it is through your Facebook name. It is very unique. Would you like to tell us what it is? Oh yea that’s why I tell people anytime they wanna find me on Facebook, you will not find me. I will find you. Hahah. My name on Facebook is Brotha Taffiti Savo Hakeema Jafarr . And the reason why I chose that name was it is the name Hakeema is Swahili for wisdom, and I have that tattooed on my back from shoulder blade to shoulder blade. I believe in that so heavily because without wisdom, or the name Taffiti means knowledge seeker and Savo means order and Hakeema is wisdom so you know with the right knowledge and wisdom comes order, creating your identity basically. And that propelled me into what I want to do. It gave me a new foundation for myself, .n how to give like a new label for myself. And not even a label but to just know who I am period. You know, growing up as a child where are all of the black figures. There are hardly and African doll figures. Identity crisis right there. You know you want to get your niece a doll, but there’s only white ones. Not saying there is anything wrong with white ones, but why give a white one to a black one who is constantly seeing all this propaganda against blacks. You know, she has no idea who she is, she is getting this false identification of herself So just right away that shows the importance of a diverse. You know be a little diverse. Why have too much ofjust one thing? Spread it out, shave to love. You know? Share the wealth, or at least get another black baby doll damn. Put that on the store shelves jeeze (laughing). Just change it up a little you know, that all a brotha can ask. There is one other thing about you that makes you unique. Especially for Grandville is that you are Atheist.and Facebook is the biggest, most notable way that you talk about it. Have you, has anyone ever called you out on it? Oh man we have a different idea that goes against the traditional or mainstream way, no everybody believes this, but that one idea that is controversial to everyone else. It was like what’s up with this guy. What’s wrong with him?rn I wasespecially, I wouldn’t say. Well I learned actually that there are different forms of Atheism. There is an Atheism that does not believe in a god at all, or super natural things. And there isthe atheism that does not believe in the three main traditional religions, the Abrahamic religions, Islamic, Christianity and Judaism. That came for a lost identification of myself I grew up as a Christian, you know my mom told me that I was going to church, I was going to like it, no if ands or buts. As a little kid I was like I have to, and ah I went not because I wanted to but because I had to. And it never gave me a change torn chose what I wanted to believe in. and the problem with a lot of religions, the problem I would say is just based on my research, a lot of people do not do research on religions or what they believe. A lot of people go to history. People don’t wanna research the dark things, the positive and negative. Everybody is looking as the positive, which is great cool, but if you’re not looking at the negative... Well remember if you do not know you history, then you are going to repeat it. People repeating history because of their lack of knowledge, with is also the Facebook thing. Every time a see Taffiti is motivates me. Knowledge seeker you know, that’s what I am. Keep studying, keep reading, keep bringing books everywhere. Nothing is going to stop me. And that was one of the biggest thing I ever had to do. Was let go of my belief of Christianity because it was a grips of fear if you do not believe in a doctrine, you are going to hell. Who wants to go to hell? Somebody raise they hands if they wanna go to hell. (nobody moves) Exactly! That was the biggest thing for me, I had to let go of the fear of risking my Page 19 �sole that is eternal in an eternal place where you die even though you are already dead. You di even more I guess. So I did a lot of research of the translations of hell You know all the translations of Hebrew of actually Arabic to Hebrew to Latin to English; you know studying all those words because I am a big studier. I study every single word, I don’t do broad things. If I am going to check Genesis 1011 will check every single word in every single translation. I will get the idea, I am not just going to go skating by. That’s what most people do, well I have the King James version so. Well did you know King James was a really wicked dude. He performed bestiality, he was extremely in to.. I forgot what it was. But the dude rewrote the bible to keep his throne in power. Now anybody that reuses, or rewrite something against his or against his people or against his power, not going to be like woah what did he change so he could keep his power? A lot of people change things, I like to get to the source, like I said to the core. And I found my identity you know the furthest that I have researched so far, which is Egypt, also the Comets. The traveled for Ethiopia to Sudan, followed the Nile River and the landed in Egypt, or Comet at the time. And that is the my belief system because that is the very core that I have seen so far and it may change. I love when my, what I believe in is challeneged, because that gives me the chance to learn because I get to see another area. So that yeah wxpecially going to Grandville to, you know there morals are all white and Christian. But my joey spiritually has not started since last year. No it was probably about a year and a half. So I would say if I want to Grandville High School with the knowledge that I have now shit would be completely different. I would probably be in college right now. Well I would be in college actually right now if I didn’t break my wrist. Was there a certain like factor that like caused you to start studying and following Atheism? Umm I would say that, I would say that I am very passionate about the black community If there is somebody that doesn’t know this I love who I am. I love being black. I love being who I am not say that being not black isn’t cool. That is just who I am and I would say that I was I questioned what is wrong with the black community today. We are not educated, we do not know our own history, I cannot even find or think of any history class that taught me that starting civilizations in Africa. I had to figure that out on my own. They didn’t tell me that my ancestors where ancient Egyptians were astrology came forum, and mathematics, and a lot of the Greeks got their information from Ancient Egypt. Where Plato always referred to Ancient Egypt. I was not told that a lot of the three religions are deep rooted in African traditions. So I questioned that. And I didn’t really have a bone to pick with Christianity so I was really upset that no one ever told me what was really going on. Because my mom didn’t know, she didn’t ask those questions. My mom actually grew up on Rockford, Oh my god my whole family actually grew up in Rockford. Now they are my age, the grew up in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s so I don’t think that they had time to think about that, They were having a hard enough time just getting through the day in Rockford. So I questioned my community, and the thing is they were mentally brainwashed through generations and generations and generations of slavery. Yeah and she has a daughter named Zira. My first niece. Yeah uncle over here. Kia is pregnant and she gets pregnant again. So, not to mention that Zi is here and she’s pregnant again by the same piece of shit. So, I’m already talking to Mom. I’m actually talking to Kia before. She told me and I was like oh but don’t tell Morn today because I’m talking to her right now. Having a little somewhat, excuse me, somewhat of a religious argument but kind of toned down because I’m trying to have that respect level and Kia, she didn’t tell her yet, but just as were getting done Kia goes, she’s like I don’t if I should tell you this, I’m kind of nervous you know and I laughed so hard. My face was priceless. I was like Kia no! Page 20 �No! You should have waited thirty minutes. No! She flipped out when you had a tattoo. She slammed a door on your face when she found out you were pregnant with Zi. I just told her I’m not a Christian anymore in the nicest way. Now you’re about to tell her you’re pregnant again. I left the house. I was scared. I left. Kia told Mom. Silence. Dead silence. What’d I do? Get my bag, headphones, going for a walk. I’m not coming back into the house for another three hours. She did not say anything for the entire night. I was like holy shit, but that’s kind of the thing. That’s the biggest bone that I have with religion. Religion is of course can be a very good thing, I’m not dogging it, but it has that fear factor. If you do not follow this doctrine then, as I told my mom several times, Mom you know if a Christian says that an Islamic person is going to hell or a Muslim person is going to hell because he does not believe that Jesus is his savior. That means that an entire population is going to hell. Also Judaism and also people who believe in... .what were the other ones. Fuck I forgot their names. You know the one’s from Eastern China. Buddhism Yeah Buddhism. Stuff like that. So I was like they were all going to hell just because they don’t believe in a certain doctrine.That’s pretty fucked up. You know I had a heart to heart talk with her and I was like dude I’m not going to hell. I’m doing research. Mom sorry to say but I know a lot more than you do about the own Bible. So don’t tell me that type of stuff with still having that respect level, but it was very frustrating. Mom Ijust wanna tell you all this stuff that I learned, but it contradicts with everything that we grew up on especially Africans because mind you that slave masters said hey did you want to believe in this? No they forced Christianity down their throats. Broke them. Told them that they were gonna accept the white Jesus for you know Michael Angelo’s picture of Jesus you know for a kind of psychological domination type of thing. Having blacks think that if their God is white then that means automatically white people are closer to God then they are. That type of thing. I mean hey look it up thats what they did. I’m not saying that one race is better than they other. I believe in unity I just love being black you know. (Laughter). Ask all my brothers. It’s ironic. I love being black. I love my brothers and sisters. I’ve never dated a black chick. I’ve only dated white chicks. I love red heads. I love white chicks. What can I say, but that does not make me any less black since I know my history you know? Some type of people will attach that to you also. I’m a very unorthodox type of person. The more I talk, the more I’m like damn I’m fucking weird. That’s what’s up because I’m not trying to be normal. (Laughter). Alright, one last question and we’ll get you out of here. We did a project on what causes prejudice and we had a whole presentation. In your opinion, what do you think causes prejudice? Oh man. Ignorance. Ignorance is not labeled or is not limited to race, gender, color, nothing. It is pure. If you do not know your history, or if you do not know your shit then you’re gonna be ignorant and you’re just gonna accept anything you know. If you don’t have a strong foundation or a set of beliefs than you’re gonna easily be like oh this makes and oh this makes sense too. I’ll follow that. A lot of people, a lot misconceptions on what ignorance is and like I said I’ve done a lot of research. Part of my name on Facebook is Enjur and a lot of people think the word nigger or negro comes from the word ignorant. That’s completely untrue because in ancient Kemit because, you gotta remember there were gods and goddesses, you know. Technically it was not the monotheistic you know religion. Their kings, remember even Egypt. Egypt was Greek and that shows you that’s not even the real name of that body of area. The name was Kemit and the names that the pharaohs, which is Greek for like upper house or something like that. The name for the pharaohs was Enjur and they didn’t have vowels and Enjur or negro is what they Page 21 �called gods and goddesses. So nigger and negro has a connection in that word. When they got invaded by the Greeks and the Romans they twisted and manipulated that word to attach a negative vibe to that word so when they’re calling nigger, negro like slave masters are like get out of here nigger and all that shit, they’re attaching a negative you know situation or vibe on that. So, they’re gonna t away from that name. That’s why you don’t hear people go what’s up nigger? It may make people feel uncomfortable but that word all it is Enjur with a few other letters in that you know. If I went around calling other black people what’s up my Enjur they’d be like what the fuck are you saying. That’s the core word for negro and nigger and where it came from, but most people don’t know that. They just think think it means ignorance so everybody is just you know yeah blacks are saying stop saying that word. It’s got such a bad history to it. It means ignorant. It’s so negative. Then you have dumb niggers who are using it like what up my nigger, what up making a fool out of themselves. Then you actually have the intelligent ones who know, which are a very selective few, that knows the meaning of the word and they use it proudly. You know? I even have white friends that say nigga and nigger. You know, it doesn’t bother me because I know who I am. I have a pretty solid identity of myself so you know it doesn’t bother me. If someone was to say that to me in eight grade, man, I would have whooped their ass so bad. I’m not saying it’s acceptable because today especially with society now if a white person says nigger, they’re about to get their ass whooped. But that’s just because of the black community doesn’t have identification of themselves. They don’t know that. They don’t know the history of the word so they accept it as something negative so they flip out. Does anyone else have any other questions? I guess just one thing, don’t have to get too much into it. Overall, how was your experience in the conservative West Michigan like communities been with you being an Atheist? Like have people called you out on it much or has it been pretty normal? Nahh. I usually keep it to myself. i usually keep my beliefs to myself. If someone asks me then yo I’ll tell them. I’ll tell them with a smile. I love life now. I don’t hate life. So, I’ll gladly tell anyone what I believe in because I believe in unity. Were all one. Were all one consciousness. I don’t believe in religion and sadly that’s what religion does. Divide and conquer. The best technique every because even with the whole black and white thing, you’re white you’re black. So what! Cool. I drive a blue car. Are you gonna call that out to homey. (Laughter). Like, people get so attached to names and labels and stuff like that. They have to hold themselves up to a higher degree. Like yo I’m just here living, what’s up. That type of thing. That’s kind of what I believe in just like yo. I live in the now. I don’t do that prejudice shit no more. I’m glad that I’ve matured. It was a long road. Long road. through trial and error. That’s one thing I’m most interested to see is how it’s gonna be in Texas. Texas is a little different than Michigan. Actually, the job that I’m at right now my boss has traveled all across the world and he told me that Michigan is the most racist place he’s ever been to. That blew my mind. He’s been to Mississippi, Florida, he’s been to China, Australia. Africa. You know, he said that out of all the places he’s been to Michigan is the most racist place he’s ever been to. Wow! I do not know what to expect in Texas. Thank you for your time Terrence for this interview. Thank you, it’s always a pleasure. Page 22 �END OF INTERVIEW Page 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc37d171c51cabff623d9246613b1b4a.mp3 3f335172564596d90f0ad44c593a1863 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Harris_Terrence Title A name given to the resource Terrence Harris audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harris, Terrence Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bauer, David Pete, Eric Homan, Stephanie VanDraggt, Victoria Description An account of the resource Terrence is African American and Atheist. He discusses growing up in a neighborhood that is predominately White, Christian. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History African Americans--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e9a07b39a329f3df5b77542164950cd.pdf eef6390183fd8d95441cb33ba8580f0e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Fabiola Jimenez Interviewers: Lucas Mosher, Kelsie Overhuel, Kyle Richard and Karly Stanislovaitis Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/14/2012 Biography and Description Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman who has been living in East Michigan since 1994. She discusses how she feels as though she was never discriminated against because of her race. Transcript MOSHER: This is Lucas Mosher, Kyle Richard, Kelsie Overhuel, and Karly Stanslovaitis. We are at Mackinac hall, on the grand valley state university Allendale campus, and it is February 24th at 4:30 pm. We are interviewing Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman from East Michigan. So, Tell us your story. Let’s start from when you moved from Colombia to Texas. JIMENEZ: Yes, I came to the United States in 1971, and I was 12 years old. My parents sent me here to live with my uncle and aunt, they stayed back home. And I went to school, to middle school, I started the 7th grade. I did not go to the special school where there was bilingual education, I went to the regular school in a separate school district, where there were no Hispanic children there, but there were cousins, that live in that neighborhood. And so when I went to that school, they were pretty much the few people who spoke Spanish were my cousins, but they were all obviously in other classes. I took special classes, I guess, with the counselor, who taught me words in English from flash cards, but I also attended regular classes with the other children in science, and math. Math was taught in a progressive mode, where you worked on worksheets, and you advanced at your own pace, it wasn’t like a classroom lead math class, unless there happened to be a group of kids working on the same subject. Through that method, I was able to advance quickly through algebra, so I moved on to take algebra in the 8th grade. By the time I went to the 9th grade, I was ready for geometry, and that didn’t seem to be an obstacle that I didn’t speak English that well. I feel that having to be immersed along with the other English speaking children, and not having a bilingual education helped me learn English very fast. And so I didn’t need special bilingual education classes to be able to catch up, or move a long with the other 8th graders and high school. So that’s how I finished high school in Texas. I got married in ’81, and we moved to Michigan in ’94. Lucas was a year old. And at that time, I was already a nurse, I had gone back to school and taken a nursing degree, a bachelors in nursing, and I worked in nursing all my life. And I feel that it has never been an obstacle to have been Hispanic. I have never felt discriminated upon by my employer because of my background. I have always obtained a job with my nursing credentials. Page 1 �RICHARD: When you had first moved to Texas, did you find it difficult to learn English at first, or did you catch on quickly? JIMENEZ: I feel that I caught on rather quickly. I had help, I would bring my homework home, and of course my uncle and aunt would help me with understanding what they wanted me to learn. The Spanish teacher at school would translate the homework for me, and so I went home with some idea of what I needed to do. I in particular remember my English teacher giving me almost special attention with flash cards, and film strips, which I’m sure you don’t know what those are, but they were special films that I could progress at my own pace that would show me words and pronunciations, and would tell me little stories to help me read. I feel that it was maybe special to me, because I was one of the few kids that did not speak English along with the other people. But when my uncle chose which middle school to send me to, he didn’t send me to the neighborhood school where I went, which was predominantly Hispanic, he wanted me to learn English right away, and so he sent me to the school where there were fewer Spanish speaking kids, so I feel that I quickly made friends that spoke English, and who helped me along. In particular, a funny story that I think that sticks in my mind is at the cafeteria. You know the little milk cartons? They showed me how to open the milk carton; because of course I did not know what “push up” meant. The combination where you open it like this (gestures) and you push it up, so they showed me, that’s how you open a milk carton. Well it only took once for me to learn the milk carton, but after that I knew what “push up” was. And so I had very kind people everywhere I’ve been, in the states. With all the different communities and people I have found them to be generous towards me, and they have taught me lots of things. I’ve never felt that they would withhold knowledge or information or acceptance. So I have to say that I don’t feel that I have been discriminated upon during my time here. MOSHER: At what point in Columbia did your family decide to send you to Texas? JIMENEZ: When you’re growing up in a 3rd world country, you don’t have the opportunity to go to school, mostly for financial reasons, because school is not free. Especially your elementary school, and your high school, and college is very expensive. In the states you are guaranteed that you’ll go through high school, and your parents don’t have to pay for your school, they pay from taxes, and yet you’re guaranteed that you’re going to be provided the education that you need, and if you’re smart enough, and dedicated enough, you’ll be able to go to college if your parents have the money, they’ll be able to pay for college for you, or you can get school loans and help from the government for whatever circumstances. My parents felt that I would have better opportunities here, to go to school, and advance further. My uncle and aunt lived here, and they did not have any children, so they asked if they would be allowed to bring me with them, and so they were my guardians, my uncle and aunt, and they lived in Texas. So I feel sometimes that maybe my parents; I used to think that they didn’t love me, or they abandoned me, or whatever, but you pretty quickly grow up from those thoughts when you realize of all the riches and wealth, that we live here in the United States, You know what I mean? There’s no war, there’s jobs, there’s healthcare, there’s the opportunity to work, to go to school, and you can say what you want and go do it. While in a 3rd world country, a developing country, you don’t have those opportunities, you don’t. If your parents have money, and you are smart, and you work hard, you might be able to maintain that level, but it doesn’t come easily for you independently to do it. You sometimes Page 2 �have to know somebody, to give you the favor of having a job. You got the job because you know that person. Or they are your friends. There’s a lot of… It’s who you know that gives you the job. Not because you got it because you saw an offering in the newspaper, and you applied, and they go for the best candidate. It doesn’t happen that way. And to get into school, is tough competition, because there are limited resources. Here, if you didn’t get into a 4 year college, well you can go to a 2 year college, and maybe bring up your grades so that next year you can go to a 4 year college. And you can go to college all your life. Here I am, as old as I am, and I was able to go back to school, and right now I’m in school to get my masters. In south America, if you don’t go to school when you’re young, weather you had the skills, the knowledge, and the money, to pay for school, in your later years, you probably won’t have the opportunity to go back to school. If you don’t have that opportunity when you are young, and take advantage of it, it’s probably gone for you, the opportunity to go back to school. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that you had to pay for school, unlike you do here, before you go to college, so are you aware of how much that was? Or how much it would have been? JIMENEZ: Well it depends, because there are private schools, like kids that go to private schools here in the states, and they are very expensive. And there are also other schools, like the Montessori schools have a different fee, and pretty much it’s what your parents are willing to pay. There are public schools, but there’s a lot of kids in those schools that they probably don’t have the best resources to provide the best education. So if you can go to a catholic school, where the nuns will teach you, you’re probably considered very well educated, by having been given the best opportunity to succeed. MOSHER: What point growing up did your opinion of your parents sending you to America change from resentment to sadness, to like, “oh, thanks for sending me.”? JIMENEZ: When I went back home after high school, I went for a couple of years, and I realized that what I had learned in the states was applicable in south America, but it wasn’t what I wanted, because for a woman in a 3rd world country, when she becomes of marriage age, it is expected of her to marry and have kids. And I didn’t think I was ready. To me, I still had school to go to. Because I wanted to go to college, and I probably couldn’t have gone to college down there. So at the time I realized what they really wanted for me was to have a better lifestyle, more opportunity that other people don’t have. STANISLOVAITIS: Did they ever talk to you about that, or was it just something that you came to realize on your own? JIMENEZ: A little bit of both. We talked about it, especially after you grow up and you realize that your sisters’ lives are not that much better, and that they probably would have been better, or different if they had had the opportunities that we as women have here. That other girls don’t have in a 3rd world country. We can make the decision not just of career, but weather we want to marry or not, weather we want to have children or not. In other countries, you are told what you’re going to be doing. (Laughs) Over here, we don’t, we can do many things, when we want. We can decide even who to marry, we don’t have to wait for our parents to make the match, or for a man to come asking, we go look for one. It is just different culturally, and expectations for women are different. STANISLOVAITIS: How many sisters do you have? Page 3 �JIMENEZ: I have lots of sisters, one of them had 3 kids, and another younger sister than me has 2 children. But they have also travelled abroad, for better opportunities. I have a sister that lives in London, and of course she left Colombia, because of jobs, the economic situation is better for jobs and financially. We don’t have that many resources that everybody can be guaranteed a job. RICHARD: So when you finally decided that you were going to move to Michigan, what played into your decision to move from Texas to a place like Michigan? JIMENEZ: That was marriage. School, for my husband, dictated that we would move to Michigan, for job reasons. At that time I already had my nursing degree, and it was very easy for me to get a job almost through Internet and the mail, through a travelling nurse agency. I came to William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, as a travelling nurse, until we settled in Michigan, and figured out where we wanted to look for a house. When we settled in Milford, Michigan, then it was easier for me to see what hospitals were in the area, and I have worked in the area ever since we moved here. And it’s going to be 19 years, 18 years for sure. So it wasn’t like my decision, it was just like a family situational thing, that it was time to move for job reasons, and so we did. MOSHER: Would Michigan have been your first choice if you had just and option to go anywhere? JIMENEZ: Um, you know up to the time we moved to Michigan we had the luxury, I guess, to travel throughout the United States with being, you know, we’ve been in many states and every states has special situations that I don’t think I would have been unhappy practically anywhere. You know what I mean? I think that I would have found contentment, or satisfaction wherever I lived as long as it was in the United States. You know what I mean? It just doesn’t matter, I mean the highway system makes sense, we speak a common language, you know? We expect certain things so I don’t think I would have preferred living in California or Florida or move back to Texas. Now I do have to admit that it took me a while to accept living in Michigan. Right. Because you have a certain vision of things that you want your life to be and it didn’t seem that at the beginning that it was going the way I wanted, I expected it. Ok? Because we all have expectations. But after a while you realize it’s not bad at all. We have a job, we have a house, we’re healthy. Lucas is going to school. You know and that kind of thing. You kinda settle into the acceptance mode. That this is okay and now the weather doesn’t bother me. It was like yay snow! It was time to get some snow. So it will be gone here, it’s gone actually and the tulips are going to bloom soon so…I like it, I appreciate it now. I appreciate the fall and the summer, the apples and the cherries. All those things I appreciate them more now. But it takes time for me to I guess mature and settle down in the environment that you live. MOSHER: So I guess it’s safe to say that you wouldn’t choose to live in any area other than the United States? JIMENEZ: Oh absolutely, Yeah, cause we’ve lived, I have had the opportunity to live in a third world country and when we were younger we had the opportunity to travel to Europe and live in Europe for nine months and it was not a good experience. There I felt discriminated. MOSHER: Can you describe some of those instances of discrimination? Page 4 �JIMENEZ: Overseas? Yes. Um, we lived in Belgium and they are a French speaking country and we lived in the French speaking area of Belgium and we would go to the bakery and I would want a loaf of bread and of course my French is not very good and I couldn’t make myself understood so I would notice they would serve the customer who had walked in the door behind me first before they would attend to me. So I assumed it was loyalty to the customer, that’s a regular well we had just gotten there. But no it seemed to be a persistent pattern that I had to wait for the girl in the back to come and help me. Not necessarily in English either. While here I feel that, in America if you go to the Japanese store or the Korean store you can walk in and pick whatever you want. You got money and you are going to spend it in my store so yay come in. Exactly? No they are not going to discriminate against you; you’re coming to give the business so I felt somewhat discriminated. MOSHER: Do you feel that that was in part to your Columbian upbringing or your language barriers? JIMENEZ: I think it was in part language barrier and a little bit signaphobia. MOSHER: So they just didn’t like outsiders? JIMENEZ: They just didn’t like outsiders because I think they felt that there were quite an influx of foreign students into the community that we were living in. STANISLOVAITIS: Do you in general people there were maybe more hostile or maybe not as accepting as people in America? JIMENEZ: Yes, Yes I feel that they were not accepting and I feel that they were annoyed that we were butchering their French roots and not speaking properly. MOSHER: This is kinda funny because earlier in class we watched a video called “Black Boy” and it’s about Richard Wright, the author and in that video he was talking about how he moved to France and actually really liked it because he didn’t feel discriminated against there. So it was kinda funny hearing you saying that you felt discriminated there and he saying he actually enjoying it more. JIMENEZ: I don’t know people have different experiences and different perceptions. I know personally that I wouldn’t want to live in Europe. For sure, I don’t want to live in Europe. I like my car, I like my mobility, I’m comfortable anywhere but, so I don’t know. We all have different perceptions so I would not move overseas. I don’t even want to travel overseas. I’ve been there so I don’t want to go. I mean I don’t want to discourage you from going. I mean Paris is beautiful, London is beautiful and it’s definitely an experience to behold, to be involved in it but I wouldn’t want to go. Brush that old city in Belgium is beautiful and I appreciate their history but I don’t want to live there. STANISLOVAITIS: Did you say that you valued having the experience knowing that that wasn’t what you wanted and did it make you appreciate being an American even more? JIMENEZ: Absolutely, absolutely because I can see what influences have made America what it is now. So yes, I appreciate it very much. I like it here. I love it here. I don’t want to go anywhere. So but no you as young people I encourage you to travel and see the world and experience it and formulate your own Page 5 �opinion; don’t let anybody discourage you from going to Mexico. Mexico is beautiful. Columbia is beautiful. They have their things to offer, experiences to offer. STANISLOVAITIS: I feel like in America we are a little bit spoiled and we think that everyone has what we have, but they don’t. JIMENEZ: Yeah, they don’t have it and sometimes I feel that young people are like ingrates. They are not thankful for the things that they have and they don’t appreciate it. So yeah do go, go and see how the rest of the world lives and you’ll soon realize that you are very unique in your own self. Just because you are in America because it makes you who you are and you are very unique and they’re the ones that are “weird”. I didn’t say that. No but do travel if you get the opportunity to go on an exchange program or go for the summer somewhere. Do go, absolutely. Don’t be afraid of it. RICHARD: Earlier you had mentioned that you were a nurse; do you think you can tell us a little bit about your nursing career and how you got into nursing? JIMENEZ: Absolutely, it’s a great question. The thought of nursing was put into me by a teacher I met in High School. She taught a class called Health Education and because I was a foreign student, Health Occupations Education it was the class, and because I was a foreign student I was not able to work and have a job and get paid cause I did not have a Social Security number. A little card with social security number, I had a student visa. So my job was to be her assistant. She gave me the job to be her assistant and I could take both classes, the first period and the second period and for work I would be her assistant. Because the kids were able to work in doctors’ offices, dentals, at the hospital, clinic that kind of thing but I couldn’t cause I didn’t have the proper documentation I guess for work permit. So she guided me and told me that I should consider being a nurse and influenced me a lot in making that my career so I always knew that that’s what I wanted to do or that’s what I should do. And to tell you the truth I never imagined myself not being a nurse either, from her influences, and so that’s what I’m did. I was not able to go to school right away after finishing high school but once I was able to return to the United States I started taking classes at the community college, one class at a time, two classes at a time because I had to work and pay for school at the same time. My parents did not have the financial resources to say yeah go to Grand Valley, live in the dorm and we’ll pay your tuition. It wasn’t that way, I had to pay for myself. And so I could only work a little bit and take a class here and there. Once I got married it afforded me a little bit of financial freedom because of my husband’s job and income and I was able then to pay for school and go full time and so I got my bachelors in science and nursing and I worked as a critical care nurse for eighteen years. And I am now going back to school to get my masters and I hope to get my nurse practitioner’s degree with an education certificate by 2014, so I hope to be done soon. As in soon, in two years’ time goes by fast. So I hope that I’ll be able to accomplish that. But yeah, I was influenced by a lady that I call mother, I call her mother. Her name was Evelyn and she influenced me to go stay in a health career path. So I’ve been a nurse all this time. Never a day unemployed for sure. I always had a job. MOSHER: Before you met her what were your ideas of what to do in life? Page 6 �JIMENEZ: What to do? I probably didn’t have any ideas. Just winging it. Yeah, I was probably was just winging it. You go to school and you study and what not but I had taken a Child Development class and through that class we had to have practicum hours and I went to an elementary school, a kindergarten and pre-kinder and I was the teacher assistant with the kids and that seemed like fun so I thought maybe I want to be a teacher but because this health occupations Education was also an elective class that you could sign up for during High School. I did that and in that would discuss what a dentist does, what a doctor does, nurses, pathology, lab tech and all the different careers in the health care and so I knew that one of those would be fine for me. That I would like it, I enjoyed the Anatomy Physiology component of the class. Talking about diseases and stuff like that so I think I would’ve chosen something in medicine but nursing seemed acceptable. So that’s what I’ve done all this time. MOSHER: Earlier off the record we talked about some people not understanding your accent over the phone… JIMENEZ: Mhm, I have to do some phone interviews for the patients are coming for procedures and stuff and give them instructions prior to their procedures and at times I have to speak to people and it hasn’t been often and occasionally I’ll bump into someone who is less patient and maybe my accent comes a lot stronger or louder over the phone and they say I have a hard time understanding you. I think it’s your accent or something and I say well I’ll have someone else call you, no problem there. It’s kinda like did you not understand me or were you just not willing to talk to me? But what can you do? STANISLOVAITIS: I know if you would’ve you decided you still wanted to live in Columbia and still wanted to do in nursing do you feel that since you would’ve not really had that opportunity to get the education that the quality of care that you would’ve given would be lower? JIMENEZ: Since I was in South America when I was little I did not even consider even studying nursing. But I did do, I took a certificate as a bilingual secretary and I started working as a bilingual secretary because I had learned English in high school so that gave me a leg up instead into perhaps a business degree or a business career in secretarial at work or maybe a hotel, tourism or something I probably would’ve done that because of my bilingual ability. So I wouldn’t have considered nursing but if I had considered nursing the quality would be according to their resources. And I know that many people in South America they do have access to medication but they are not free. Is that like when you go to the public health department? Have you ever been to the public health department? In South America you have to pay for your…for everything, when you come to the hospital here women give you a bucket with tooth brush tooth paste soap a towel…right, a bucket to puck in if you need to…right. When you go to the hospital in South America you better bring those things with you or have someone bring them for you including the sheets. And if preferably bring someone to stay with you to help you with your stay in the hospital because there are few health care people who are skilled to take care of patents there’s fewer medications right. And there is fewer resources. So it’s not as available as it is here. So I don’t think that if I had stayed in South America in Columbia that I would be a nurse right now. More than likely not. And probably…I would have had more than one child. (Laughs) I would probably have twenty of them. (Laughs) I don’t know what the deal is but it would have been my choice definitely it be only Page 7 �what I wanted. You know what I mean? My life would have been a little bit different. In a more male dominated environment. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that your sisters, they still live in Columbia so like do you feel like they because of all of the opportunities that you have gotten in America. Do you feel like they have any desire to have the same opportunities? JIMENEZ: Mhmm well yeah I am sure they have. I mean they’re not lacking. I mean they have a nice house, a nice home they have families and everything. But like what I was telling you we all settle in to what our fortune is and you accept it. You know what I mean? So I think they have been content, you know my oldest sister you know she has her husband, her kids, they’re in their thirties their grown. You know, she’s a grandma. You know I am sure she loves her grand children and stuff. You just kind of settle in to you lifestyle, and make the best of it. You know? And make the best opportunity that you have, she had a good job and her husband had a good job and it provided for their families. You know? They took advantage of the opportunity that was offered to them at the time, but I don’t think that they had the same choices I had. *Pause* JIMENEZ: So I encourage you to travel overseas or even in the United States. I encourage you to stay in school and if your parents are paying for it take all that you can. (Laughs) And take advantage of it because once you start paying for it yourself it is hard, it is hard to part with that money that you are paying for by yourself. And it is difficult to work and go to school at the same time, it’s hard I mean I am sure you have friends who work and go to school at the same time or who would like to be at Grand Valley but they have to go to the community college because they can’t afford it or didn’t get student loans. Or if they got the student loans [they are] already in debt to pay for the student loans. You know what I mean? If you have a scholarship definitely take advantage of it. Stay in School. You know prepare yourself because knowledge is something that nobody and take away from you. I mean that goes where you where ever you go, it will follow you. You know? And you never know when you are going to us it; you never know when it will become valuable for you. So…the opportunity presented itself for me to go back to school right now so I want to go I want to do it so I always wanted to get my masters. I am working on my masters right now. Very busy. The house isn’t clean, the kitchen isn’t washed the dishes aren’t washed, but Lucas is not home so it can stay that way. You know so I like it though I’m happy…I’m happy to be going to school now. It will be over April 15th so…just keep my calendar of how many more days. I know you do too right? (Laughs) You know, so stay in school and travel if you can now that your young, and you can see the world. RICHARD: Could you tell us a bit about because you said you graduated high school and you went back to Columbia JIMENEZ: I went back to Columbia for two…two years maybe RICHARD: Could you tell us what it was like when you finally came back to the United States? Page 8 �JIMENEZ: Oh, it was wonderful. When I came back to the United States I lived with my brother who was also living in Texas and after a couple of months I didn’t like living in his house because I needed to go to school and what not so I called the teacher I told you about and told her I needed a place to stay and she allowed me in her house. She was single, no children elderly obviously she was my high school teacher. And so I lived in the house with her. And so while I worked and continued to go to the community college I lived with her for a couple of years. And than shortly after that I got married. And I have been married ever since. And that changed you know my life quite differently it became a different dynamic. Where I still can go to school full time but I was able to go to school part time and work and start you know the next step. You get married have children except the child didn’t come until thirteen years later you know. (Laughs) It just happened that way but it was my choice it was a decision for me to make you know what I mean it wasn’t my parent’s decision to make. So… STANISLOVAITIS: I sound like you have always sort of valued being independent and to have. JIMENEZ: Ahh your very smart, you are so smart. Yes and that is something that this this is funny. You’re going to make me laugh because yes a thing a child would experience. I was raised. most Hispanics are catholic. And for my elementary school I did go to a Catholic school. I was raised by the Catholic Church in school. But when it came to Sundays my grandfather would take me to a Presbyterian church. Which is a protestant faith. So during the weekend…during the week I was catholic but on the weekend I was protestant. Right because I was going to the catholic school it came the time where the girls had to do their first communion. Who any kind of Catholics? Are you Catholic? No, Okay but you know what a first communion is they have the ceremony and it’s like an induction in to somewhat older girlhood or adulthood almost. So I did my first communion and I did that without my parents consent. Because as far as I was concerned they could go to hell but I not. So I did my first communion and how my parents found out I found me a dress, the Vail, the shoes and somebody to take me up there to do my first communion, because that is what we were learning in school. It is time to do your first communion and this is why it is important to do it and dedicate your life you know say that you know are catholic. Now profess your faith. Yeah I think I am I’m not going to hell. So I did my first communion and how my parents found out was because the photographer brought pictures to the house to see if they wanted to buy the pictures of the beautiful girl doing her first communion. So yes I have been very independent so that’s an example right there. The other example I can give you about independence I can give you about independence is my…piercing of your ears. You know some Hispanic countries they do believe for children to have their ears pierced if they are girls the day they are born. You know? Mom already has earrings in the girls ears, my mom didn’t do that to me she wanted me to wait until you know I was fourteen or fifteen to get my ears pierced. No I didn’t wait I was probably seven or so my friend was getting her ears pierced by her grandmother and I went and had my ears pierced without my mothers consent. So yes you are very…very observant. Very smart. But yes I have been very independent sometimes gets me in trouble too. So yes I have been very independent in doing my own thing and that’s something you don’t…a luxury almost that most girls don’t have in third world countries to choose you know, what classes they are going to take next semester. You know someone is always telling you what to do whether it is your parents or your husband or somebody else. Yeah Page 9 �MOSHER: What were your parent’s reactions to you going off and doing those things with out their consent? JIMENEZ: Well (Laughs) my mom bought the pictures so whatcha’ going to do you know. (Laughs) I have a couple of them. She could not afford all of them but she did buy a couple of pictures and the other pictures I remember the man being upset when my mom told him that she couldn’t buy all the pictures and he tossed them in the street. You know she only bought two of them you know what I mean. I have…I have…I have those pictures. And for my earrings I had to hear the lecture I told you so, I told you so, I told you so, because they got infected. And so I had to do that, washing with soup and water and put alcohol in that little thread in there so that … MOSHER: to floss the little thing JIMENEZ: Yeah yeah to keep the hole open. Yeah you know if I hadn’t done that it would have just sealed back up but of course it got infected because I am sure the old lady that poked my ear probably didn’t disinfect the needle. It’s probably old and dirty. You know she did my friends ears and than she did my ears. So it’s like oh my gosh. So totally not clean technique, she probably didn’t even wash her hands you know. But my mom was very prompt to remind me “I told you so”. But what not they healed I got earrings (Laughs) So but anyway besides being annoyed and upset I think that she was also supportive you know you can only control your children so much that’s the other thing as a parent I have learned now. I can only offer my children the opportunity and than they have to make their own decisions as to what they are going to do with their lives. So that’s it. MOSHER: On a different not I know you met your husband Mark in high school, how did you do the two years when you were in Columbia after high school? JIMENEZ: Oh very good question. …letters. Mark would send me letters. Well Mark didn’t right me…I don’t know maybe six months almost a year until he sent me the first letter in high school. And I think it was because he bumped in to my cousin or something so he …got my address from one of them or I don’t remember what happened but I started getting letters in the mail and because the mail was so slow many times I would get two, three letters at a time. And I would try to send him a letter back. And I have a stack of letters and so I started telling him to please number the letters that way I would know that there was another letter coming. Because sometimes I think he spent his time in class writing the letter to me rather than studying. Because many times it would be written in the notebook and on notebook paper and than I feel that he would just finish fold it up put in an envelope and put it in the mail. If he was not finished with the letter he would continue on another page, and so he would send that one the next day and the mail…one would not catch up with the other and they would arrive out of order. So he started numbering the letters. And you know I would try to keep them in order. So I have a little stack of letters that Mark sent from the states, cards and that kind of thing. And the calling of the phone was expensive. We didn’t have Skype there was no email no instant messaging. You know none of those things that we take for granted now. I mean right now I could get on the internet with Skype connection and call my sister you know and see her you know it’s kinda cool. We didn’t have that and you know the phone it was expensive. And he had to tell me in a letter “ I’m going to try to call you on this day at this time” and than I would have to wait and think, “Is he going to call is he not going to call” Page 10 �you know I can’t leave. You know what I mean it was just a lot of hassle a lot of difficulty but…but that’s how it was done. No instant messaging, no texting, no emails, no phone messages either. No answering machines, did we have answering machines? I don’t think so. None of the convince. STANISLOVAITIS: That must have been really hard. JIMENEZ: It’s really hard. I know it’s really hard. It’s even hard now when he says “oh I can’t talk to you I have phone fatigue”. It’s like really? Phone fatigue. But anyway yeah it’s it’s really hard. It was really hard, it’s almost like a joke you know “no text messaging” (Laughs) I still don’t have text messaging but I know it’s available. You know what I mean. I mean if I don’t have it it’s because I’m delayed in moving in to the 21st technological advances. 21st century technological advances but not because I don’t want them you know I haven’t found a need for it. But you know it’s there. STANISLOVAITIS: Can you blame anyone that doesn’t want to be connected to everything all of the time? JIMENEZ: I know exactly. I do panic if I can’t find my cell phone. So yes I am one of those that has developed I think they came out on the Internet with a new phobia of being separated from your computer or I don’t know what they call it…eh phobia. So yeah I don need my cell phone. JIMENEZ: I think they came out with a new phobia of being separated from your computer or your…I don’t know what they call it. So yeah, I do need my cell phone. I’m always in the wrong place of town. I’m always like, I’m lost look at the internet, how do I get outta here, you know, and I’m on my way home or had a flat tire {and} ran out of gas, whatever I’m gonna be late, so I do need a cell phone. MOSHER: Earlier you talked about how you think young people they’re ungrateful for what they have. Do you think that’s in part due to the satisfaction of things like text messaging and Skype? JIMENEZ: I just think that, and I think we all, have a little bit of {a} lack of gratitude at one time or another, because it wasn’t until much later that I understood, and felt very grateful, that my parents sent me here. As hard as it was to be away from my parents during my early adolescent years and early adulthood, you know when I wish to be maybe mothered more than what my aunt was willing to do for me- because she wasn’t my mother, she was my aunt, after all. So I felt a little bit ingrateful {sic} not grateful enough, I feel. But later on I understood it was because she really wanted me to have better opportunities, and so I appreciated that highly. And I think with kids now all they have to do is tell the Easter Bunny what they want to bring ‘em and they kinda get it, ya know what I mean? I want a new swimsuit I want a new car, ya know, some kids get it, they just get it. Their parents are there. And so they don’t see that even though their parents go to work everyday, have to punch a card everyday, make sure that they don’t go on vacations, that they follow their finances and expenditures and purchases and stuff like that it still affects them. I think if their parents had a choice they’d wanna stay home, they don’t wanna go to work, ya know, unless they really love their job so much ya know, but at one time or another everybody has had to make even the sacrifice of getting up early in the morning to get in the car to drive to work. You may not always feel…you may like your work, but you may not always feel like you’re ready to go. You wanna sleep late on Monday morning sometimes, ya know? Page 11 �So you take for granted that at one time or another your parents have had to make do to provide for their children. Even if it is a different extra expenditure of the cell phone, the instant messaging, ya know the calls, the extra hours of points so you don’t go over your minutes or whatnot, you know what I mean? New clothes. And you wanna give your kids, too, ya know? So I think that kids just have it easy now. I mean there’s no more child labor, ya know what I mean? And you’re not gonna go hungry, most parents would provide for their kids, unless there are other circumstances, ya know, I’m not saying that all parents have the ability to provide for their children, ya know there is other issues whether it is drug dependency, or mental illness or unemployment like what’s going on right now, but I think for the most part parents, at one time or another, have always made a little compromise for their children. Ya know, diapers are expensive, especially when you’re just starting out and you’re working for a little bit more than minimum wage and you have a baby. And all of a sudden it’s like, it’s not that you don’t want the baby, but another side of you that money’s gonna be not for your haircut or your nails, it’s gonna go for diapers or a bigger Onesie ‘cause he’s growing too fast, ya know, so…and I don’t know that kids understand that, but I think you all will. At one time or another you’ll be parents yourselves and you will understand that a little bit better. MOSHER: Earlier we were talking about how you hadn’t seen much discrimination in America; do you think that’s true for almost everyone or do you think America’s just a really friendly place? JIMENEZ: I don’t know, I don’t wanna say that there isn’t discrimination, I just, from my personal experience, I have to say I have not ever felt it being directed ya know? But I mean I know that, , some African American individuals feel that they have been discriminated. Ya know I have never felt that, ya know. Some of ‘em may say that they need to be ‘paid back’ for slavery after all this time, I never can say that I’ve been a slave so I don’t know their experiences so I don’t have a shared experience with that, but I was like you, learned in school. I don’t deny it- yes, there was slavery- ya know, but I don’t know how to put it. I’m sure there’s discrimination. I can’t say that I have experienced it. STANISLOVAITIS: Well it seems like there’s a really big perception among other countries that Americans are spoiled and entitled, and like you said earlier, kids especially are not grateful for what they have because we have so many opportunities. Since you have been back to Columbia a few times, were you old enough, did you feel that way when you came back to America, did it make you look at Americans differently? JIMENEZ: No, because it’s just the environment that we live in; you just don’t know any better, you just don’t know any different. Until you experience that yourself you’re not gonna realize that it’s any different, right? I think that’s how I see it. But yeah, I could say that most kids are spoiled, but that’s what we want, as parents, we want ‘em to have what we didn’t have, you know what I mean? Like, I never had a beautiful bicycle when I grew up; I learned to ride a bicycle when I was fifteen. So needless to say I’m not very agile in turning wheelies and all this stuff, right, but when Lucas became of age, five or six, to have a bicycle, I got him the most beautiful bicycle I could find, because it was the bicycle I would’ve loved to have had as a kid. And granted it wasn’t purple and it didn’t have little flutteries, but it was a very beautiful red bicycle, right, Lucas? Page 12 �And I think as parents you will learn that it doesn’t matter, you’re gonna try to give your kids the very best you can. So I think that’s just being a parents ‘flaw’ or fault; we wanna give the kids the best. We don’t want them to have an trouble like our parents had or like I had, even though I don’t feel like I’ve had any trouble. We always wanna make it best for them, which may not be the best parenting thing to have done. We still wanna teach them to work hard, to study hard, to achieve, to progress, to motivate. But we don’t accomplish that test by providing things for them. MOSHER: The distaste…from other countries about America, do you think that stems from jealousy, or do they have other motives for disliking us as a country? JIMENEZ: I feel in part it’s jealousy, but also in part it’s their cultural influences, their own cultural influences. Because many people have had a background of being raised in a socialist mentality, that your computer is my computer, too, right? While, in America, it’s like, no, I have my computer, you have your computer, and you have your computer. And you get the computer you can afford, I get the computer I can afford, and you get the computer you can afford, but we all have computers, right? Over there I feel like it comes from the mentality that we’re gonna have to share and I don’t care how much money you have, you’re gonna pay more taxes and that kinda stuff. So it’s partly their social upbringing, their political influences, and their cultural as well. While here in America I feel that if I get two jobs, I might be able to get an Apple {computer} like that. It may take me a little bit longer saving it, but nobody’s gonna tell me I can’t have it. If I want it you betcha I’m gonna work for it and I’m gonna get it, even it means I’m not gonna go to McDonald’s’ for the next two months. Nobody’s telling me I cannot have it; nobody’s regulating whether I can go to the Apple store, or Walmart or Kmart or Meijer’s to get it, ya know what I mean? While over there they may only have one computer for sale; they may not have computers for everybody anyway, whether you have the money or not. Does that make sense? Does that make sense or am I just rambling? MOSHER: Do you think there’s anywhere else in the world that functions on that same ‘if you want it you can have it’ kinda thing, or is America the only place to get that? JIMENEZ: I think, another place might be, I’m assuming, I don’t know for a fact, but I think maybe England might work under those premises. That if you have the money, and you want it, and you have a job, you can get it. While in Mexico, for example, they may not be able to find that second job to buy what they want because their first job isn’t providing for them. Even if they wanted to get a second job, there isn’t one. Even here, with the extent of unemployment, and I don’t know if your parents are employed or unemployed with the economical circumstances we have now, we can still go mow the yards, there are still signs that say ‘help wanted.’ OK, maybe not with the skills that you went to school for or whatever, but you can find a job. I don’t know, I don’t think there’s another place in the world like the United States, I don’t think so. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that you have done a lot of traveling…do you feel like that has given you a bigger appreciation for not only for where you came from and where you are, but from a global view? Page 13 �JIMENEZ: Yeah, because I learned to appreciate other people’s cultures. For example, in my house I like to celebrate the Chinese New Year in January, so we have Chinese food. I love Chinese food, I wouldn’t wanna be without it. I wanna know that it’s available and I like it. I like to go to the Vietnamese kitchen; I like to go to the Italian restaurants, so defiantly I can appreciate the foods. My Pączki’s didn’t go unnoticed from the Polish community, I knew that they were available for when I wanted to get it, so I can appreciate that. I can appreciate the music, and I can appreciate the contributions that they have done not just to the United States, but culturally, and through literature and all that stuff. So yes, it broadens your prospective, and I appreciate that. But I don’t wanna live there; I’m happy right here. I wanna know that I can go just about any city in the United States and find a Chinese restaurant, an Italian restaurant, Greek, ya know. Whatever, I just want it here, I wanna go. STANISLOVAITIS: I think it’s kinda interested you mentioned restaurants and food and general things like that. When people think of things that they don’t have they don’t think of things like that. ‘Cause we’re always taught big things like education, and being independent and being able to provide for yourself. I feel like we don’t realize if we didn’t have those opportunities we wouldn’t have any of that. JIMENEZ: Absolutely. The little things do matter. And pretty soon you’ll realize it’s not the big picture, but it’s things that you do everyday that matter the most. MOSHER: So I guess to wrap things up here it’s safe to say that you think America’s a pretty diverse place? {Inaudible} JIMENEZ: Absolutely. I feel that it’s very diverse, and I feel that people are realizing that they need to fight for the opportunities and to keep it, for the opportunity to continue to be on their level. For the mentality that hard work would provide things for you, not wait for somebody to give them to you, OK. Don’t expect the government to provide for you health care, safety or security, or anything like that. You need to be able to provide those things for yourself, and in return provide it for your family, your community, and your. {Inaudible}. Whether it is the freedom of choice, the freedom of religion, the freedom to go to school and study whatever you want. And to shop for the things you want to shop for, and work as many jobs as you want to. MOSHER: Well, thank you for coming in Group: Thank you END OF INTERVIEW Page 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a2588214a018331d7231e2e49e2ef579.mp3 a35c6475300f6ff561200cdd0bcca1a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Jimenez_Fabiola Title A name given to the resource Fabiola Jimenez audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimenez, Fabiola Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mosher, Lucas Overhuel, Kelsie Richard, Kyle Karly Stanislovaitis Description An account of the resource Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman who has been living in East Michigan since 1994. She discusses how she feels as though she was never discriminated against because of her race. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a439aced87ed7185d2660dff223507f2.pdf 9675f36ea32682280c9efbd63811f95e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Jose Jimenez Interviewers: Timothy Robertson, Ashlie Hood and Angelica Perez Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/24/2012 Biography and Description Jose Jimenez was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico and lived in Chicago. He discusses his experiences as the leader of the Young Lords and an activist for Latin Americans. Transcript JIMENEZ: So the name of the class is what? HOOD: US diversity, diversity in the US JIMENEZ: Oh diversity, ok ROBERTSON: So we will essentially be conducting an oral history which I’m sure you have way more with experience than we do JIMENEZ: No I don’t have any experience this is my first time that I’m doing the history, the oral history ROBERTSON: Oh nice, right on JIMENEZ: Yeah I don’t have any experience ROBERTSON: Then it will be a new experience for the both of us; essentially we will be running through basic history about you JIMENEZ: Ok ROBERTSON: Integrating a few points of what kind of built you personally and then like your opinion of home JIMENEZ: Ok where do you want to start, what’s your name again? HOOD: Ashlie JIMENEZ: Ashlie? Ok I’m José, ok ROBERTSON: To start actually if we can get some basic information about you Page 1 �JIMENEZ: You do have a lot of questions? Or is that ROBERTSON: Well these are… JIMENEZ: Background stuff ROBERTSON: Yeah, they JIMENEZ: Ok ROBERTSON: Just some basic questions JIMENEZ: (laughing) ROBERTSON: We kind of developed our own from this so JIMENEZ: Ok so you want some basic personal questions first or ROBERTSON: Yup. Yeah the first, if you could introduce yourself JIMENEZ: Ok, I’m José Jimenez, the nickname I’ve had for most of my life is cha cha, C-H-A C-H-A (spelling out cha cha) and I got that, it was more like a people in the neighborhoods usually get nicknames in a negative way so they were kind of little racial in nature because this guy used to call another black person sambo and he called me a cha cha cha, and so as more, I was just a little kid, but as more Latinos came into the neighborhood. I, I kind of liked the name cha cha so I just kept it, some people get called frog face or whatever, (Ha-ha) I just kind of liked the name cha cha ROBERTSON: If you could tell us date of birth and location JIMENEZ: Ok, I was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico. My family is from the country but of course I was born in the city, in the town because my older sister had died and my mother was worried because there was no medical treatment in the country so she moved to the town of Caguas but us when I went back to Puerto Rico when I was fifteen years old, all I knew was the country. I came straight from Chicago back to the country there. It was actually a good experience because I spent a lot of time with my grandfather, Egragrorio Jimenez, and I mean I had to use the two bulls to turn ground and… ROBERTSON: Oh wow JIMENEZ: And coming from Chicago there was real whole awakening for me. The whole country, the whole culture, the music of the people that they had there so I was able to catch a lot to really appreciate the country life of Puerto Rico there ROBERTSON: Kind of to bounce off that, what kind of ancestry did you have? JIMENEZ: I had, well my great grandfather and my great grandfather, they’re all Puerto Rican so. On my mother’s side there’s a lady that comes directly from Spain but basically we’ve been Puerto Ricans for generations. We came when I was two years old, my father did not own his own property, he did not own his own farm so he worked on other peoples farms. At the time they called them agregaros, so Page 2 �aggregated or connected because they were able to get some space for their house in somebody else’s land and that’s how you make a living, you work for the farmer and so there was a large farmer named Jimenez which is my last name and he worked for him, a lot of people worked for him at that time. Later on my grandfather was able to purchase a lot a large a lot where his sons and daughters were able to work because there were about 13 or 14 of them, brothers and sisters so siblings. So they were able each of them to have their own section, and so things improved later, after this large land owner Jimenez left the area. Ah, well that was just the way of life. People were not angry with him, it wasn’t like slavery or anything like that it’s just that he had money and he was able to provide for other people at that time, it was his business. from my father, because he worked at the farm it was easy for him to, when the united states was having trouble with Mexican workers because of their documentation and their papers and that Puerto Ricans were citizens of the united states so the united states, the US companies went to Puerto Rico to bring Puerto Ricans here to work in the fields, so my father came and he worked by concord Massachusetts when there was still farm land at that time and he did that since 1945-46 and then he moved up and they let him drive a tractor because he spoke a little English and so he went back and brought other people to, to near Boston to the Andy voy farms. Andy voy farms were connected, they were the farms providing vegetables to Campbell’s Soup Company because I tried to do some research on them and that’s what I found out. But so he was bringing in people so, but the conditions were not that well because they would come and they would have to work from early in the morning to late at night and they had nothing else to do to socialize, I mean a lot of them started drinking alcohol became their way to relax on the weekends because on the weekdays they had no time to relax and they and they didn’t know anybody. ROBERTSON: It certainly becomes a social conflict JIMENEZ: Yeah yeah, so he did that for a few years and then he brought my mother and myself to concord and then my sister Juana was born there and from me moved, after he brought us here. I guess even though we had our own little cottage life, I guess he didn’t like that environment for us, for the family environment. It was mostly just men working there. Although my mother, she started making money ironing clothes, and she was making more money that he was. Because she was ironing clothes for the men and the place ROBERTSON: Mmhmmmm JIMENEZ: But there were more family in Chicago so his sisters and brothers were I Chicago so he decided to move to Chicago in 1950 and that’s when we lived in a, what they called a new barrio, a neighborhood a new community because it was developing in Chicago at that time. So everybody kind of knew each other, I would say there was maybe ten thousand Puerto Ricans at that time in the city and they were kind of spread out like Clark, around Chicago avenue, Clark was a neighborhood developing, it was a Puerto Rican neighborhood, it actually was it actually was a skit row area because there was a lot of hotels that they were converting into apartments and rooms and stuff like that it was a little rent. They were ready to tear down the buildings and so there was low rent and that was where Puerto Ricans can go. I mean most of them were migrant workers anyways so they were just coming Page 3 �there to work for a few years and to go back, the same as my father was doing in concord Massachusetts ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: But this time it was in a city and factories and they were trying to make enough money to go back but the plane fair was very expensive and then it wasn’t just the plane fair but when you went back to Puerto Rico, you had to put a fassad, like you had money. So you go there and everybody’s expecting you to buy drinks and everybody’s expecting you to wear the best clothing and everybody’s expecting you to act like your upper class because you have money and you’re an Americano, you’ve been to the united states and so those things were hampered with the travel back and forth because people had to put their fassad to pretend that they were something that they weren’t. ROBERTSON: That’s an interesting condition though, I mean to me essentially what you’re saying is that the condition I Puerto Rico was just a lack of employment and that’s what drove you to the states JINENEZ: Exactly that was very you k know when there is employment here at 90% you’re looking at even at right now 30% in Puerto Rico so it’s definitely by triple the amount that it is here so those were bad times there in the early 50’s, late 40’s and people were looking, there was a big migration at that time of Puerto Ricans coming not only to Chicago but to the Midwest and the steel mills and to the hotels they had a, my uncles had a favorite quote that they used to talk, if you asked them what kind of work they were in they would say that they were gravando discos making records. What they meant by that they were spinning records, what they meant by that they were washing dishes (Tim and Ashlie begin to laugh) because there were so many of them that were living in the well they were working in the hotels in Chicago we lived like six blocks away from the downtown so I mean that was and that kind of created a bad problem later because it was prime real estate so the few Puerto Ricans that were able to buy some houses cheap resold them cheap then there was a whole land grabbed in that area of downtown which is where we came in later, we were, cause we kept moving, we didn’t know, I mean we were not connected to the city at all, we were not connected to the politicians or anything like that or we didn’t pay attention, our parents didn’t pay attention to the news or anything like that because they didn’t speak English ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: And we were young we didn’t care about it and we were like disconnected from the city. Like Mexicans are today, a lot of Mexican people immigrants, are today they are kind of in their own world they’re disconnected and that went like that for a while through generation until we started to go to school and making our own little connections and that but, so we kept moving from one place, we lived there for a few years then we got pushed out of there and moved to another place and so you read in some of the books today that Latinos or Puerto Ricans moved a lot but what they didn’t say was that it would be renewed and being pushed out from on, I mean because we didn’t know that they were trying to re develop the whole lake front ROBERTSON: Okay Page 4 �JIMENEZ: So we just kept moving north along the lake front and so we kept on being pushed out ROBERTSON: So that that berry field then pushed you farther away from downtown JIMENEZ: Right and then they were trying to develop the downtown and the lake front so we were always near downtown I mean because of our jobs because we were with the dishwashers, the women with the hotel, with the maids, with the rich people, they cleaned people’s houses and companies were recruiting women from Puerto Rico to do that and they I can’t think of the name right now of one of the companies but they actually they companies and it was cheap labor they were looking for that and you’re dealing with citizens, you’re not dealing with someone that is not a citizen. Puerto Ricans were born citizens. In 1966 we were getting were for our first world war, and so we were made citizens of the united states, there was no vote or anything like that, they just said you we’re giving you this right to be a citizen and the next day you got to go to war ROBERTSON: Of course JIMENEZ: But it’s true, why would you become a citizen in 1917, what was going on was the war you k now ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: So anyway we were citizens and it gave us some benefits it’s not, so yeah there were some benefits that came with that those benefits made us more independent but you’re talking about food stamp benefits, that we didn’t have before so those benefits were good. We have a lot of companies in Puerto Rico but the owners are over here I mean if you own a business and you’re over here, you’re the one that’s making the main money I mean you’re giving jobs to some people, but you’re the one that’s making the profit so it was like that but, I’m saying that because the whole fight that happened with the young lords later was about self-determination of like Puerto Rico. We believed that Puerto Rico should determine their own destiny and it nothing against the United States believes the same thing I mean they fought their war against England so I mean we believed the same thing. We don’t disrespect the American flag we can’t because we want to respect our flag; we want to fly our own. Right now you have to fly both flags, there was a time in the 30’s when Puerto Ricans were made, they were forced to speak only English in school, that’s crazy. Somebody’s not going to go to Germany and tell everybody ok, you got to speak English now (laughing). ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: What I am saying, no more German allowed that’s what they did to Puerto Rico not everybody but the people in charge. We definitely don’t blame the American people, just the people in charge and I grew up over here so but anyways I got off on in a tangent here ROBERTSON: It’s all right JIMENEZ: So we came to Puerto Rico to la Clark, was the neighborhood we called it and then there was another community called la Madison which was right around down town on the other side, on the western part of it but they actually were together except there was an express way that divides or the Page 5 �Kennedy, that divides up the two neighborhoods so basically we lived downtown and we lived near the lake front, basically we lived in that community. But there was two barrios, there was two neighborhoods that were being built at that time, one was la Clark and one was la Madison. Now people from both la Clark and la Madison moved into Lincoln Park or Wicker Park. And that is where my generation grew up, in either wicker park or Lincoln park and so that’s all knew of Puerto Rico again I can’t remember I was only two years old and most of us came when we were young so we didn’t know anything about Puerto Rico but in our neighborhood here in Chicago and so to us that was our Puerto Rico and all of sudden after were there for like 15, 20 years, here comes the bull dozers again and here comes the urban renewal program and they wanted to evict us again, except this time they’re not evicting our parents, they’re evicting us and we grew up here ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: And so were saying we can’t go for this anymore, we have to do something and that’s kind of how the young lords started. We were just hanging out on the corner I mean we didn’t care about anything, we wanted to listen to music, smoke a little weed, drink a little wine, and have a good time and some of us were soldiers, we went to the service and once in a while we got a little mischief. We would cut the hippies hair (Tim and Ashlie laughing) or jump on the sailors. Some of us probably, I remember going to the dances and there was about eight of us with different stoning cars that we got to just go to the party, if wanted a new car, we couldn’t afford it so we just took it. So we weren’t even taken it to, some people would take it to get the hop cats and sell them or whatever. We would just take it to go to the parties. We weren’t the only ones getting into trouble. I mean we had our fights; we won some we lost some. So I mean that’s all we were about. We weren’t political, our parents were sure not political, they came from the farms from the field of Puerto Rico where there were farm workers. They didn’t have any education, we didn’t have any education, most of us dropped out at eighth grade or ninth grade of high school so we definitely didn’t have no education, our parents had no education. My father was on welfare and my mother worked in a transformer place where she got minimum wage almost and then my father had to say that he didn’t live with us so got welfare, first he got unemployment I guess then he got welfare but he did work for about 13 or 14 years for Oscar Meyer it was a meat factory, he worked in a meat packing factory but then they fired him, they moved the company and so he lost his job and he didn’t want to work again he started hanging out at the bar, became a pool shark and that’s how he made his money I guess but then he sold the numbers, that was another way of making money and the neighborhood was to, now its legal, the lottery is legal but at that time there was no lottery ROBERTSON: Okay JIMENEZ: But in Puerto Rico they did have a lottery that was legal and so they just thought it was okay to sell the numbers but it was not legal because there was no taxes being paid ROBERTSON: Right, right JIMENEZ: But today they didn’t distinguish it too much so I wouldn’t say that my father was a gangster, he did belong to a little club like the old hatchets, it was a name that they chose, but they would get into Page 6 �bar fights, bar brawls but it wasn’t really as gang if you compared to gang stuff its nothing like that. And I think he went to jail twice because I went with my mom to bond him out for fights and he was definitely afraid of jail, he didn’t want to go. Not like me I went a lot of times but he, so he was just more of a family person. In fact Jackie glease, the honeymooners was his favorite show ROBERTSON: Yeah, so you would say that one of the biggest draws for Chicago was your own people there JIMENEZ: The draw, you mean for myself? ROBERTSON: Right, well with you and your family even I mean you were saying that there were more job opportunities JIMENEZ: Right and our families were there we were closer to our family versus being in some farm, in a field farm in the fields and stuff like that but yeah so one of the draws with living in Lincoln park was that there was families growing up together and it became a tight knit neighborhood, just like any other neighborhood ROBERTSON: So would you say it helped maintain a sense of your culture? JIMENEZ: Right and maintain the culture, that’s what I’m saying because it maintained our culture and it made, that was my Puerto Rico, that’s what I knew of Puerto Rico. I loved Puerto Rico today but I never, I didn’t live in it that much what I’m saying. My sisters were all born here and they lived there for several years they loved it there. And I loved it there too but I can’t find any work but their husbands were raised there so they’re kind of used to their economy, their culture and I’m not. I was raised here so I’m used to here more. Even though I love Puerto Rico and defend it I had to me my Puerto Rico was Lincoln Park and that neighborhood and that community and then because we did the bad thing and we did the good things. Think of the new immigrants moving there, like pilgrims ROBERTSON: Mmhmmm JIMENEZ: Because they came in there and actually acted like pilgrims cause they came with a religious fervor from Puerto Rico and when they saw that a lot of the older people, the man would get into gangs and start selling drugs they used religion, they used Catholicism to preach when they saw that the youth could not afford to go a catholic school, my mother had her own catechism in her own house, she had an altar in the house but basically, she would have our living room was about 30 chairs, and the kids would come in there and she would, they would have to memorize the book because she wasn’t a good teacher, she never went to school and she only went to, I don’t think she even went to the 1st grade because she was raised in an orphanage but her mother got ill land so she was raised in an orphanage near san Juan until she was like 15 or 16 then she got connected with my father and they got married but she had catechism classes and they would graduate and she worked it out with the local priest and they would go and do it there. She would have catechism classed and they would have to recite word from word yes ma’am god raised on the third day no mam, yes mama. That’s the way they had to answer that was the way she trained them and she was excited when the priest would come and ask them questions because they would graduating at that time and the families were excited, they would Page 7 �go them like a little suit and fine dresses and that and they would go and receive their first communion and I saw that, I was going to catholic school at that time and it was like one of those where your mother is the minister and you don’t want to be connected to the class, you’re always on the sideline. But I appreciated what my mom was doing and I learned her organizing skills and how she had to talk to the parents and stuff like that. And she did that for, she had a few classes that graduated (Jose’s phone starts ringing) I should have turned this off, sorry ROBERTSON: It’s alright; do you need to take that? JIMENEZ: No, (Jose is trying to turn his phone off) and Tim is trying to help him JIMENEZ: Where were we? ROBERTSON: You were just describing your appreciation with what your mom was doing JIMENEZ: Well I need to also say, because I said we had a little altar, she my mother also, in Puerto Rico there is different customs, so even though 99% are catholic, there’s still old customs from the Indians and from the Africans, so you have their religions also a part of the thing. And my mother had, today she is what you call a charismatic Catholic so that means that they pray to the saints and she’s very into, well the Africans have the santaria, which is what we say is more like voodoo but it’s just a religion from Africa but it’s in the music you here songs like changu, and all that so my mother wasn’t into that, she was more into Indian, she said I’m an Indian. But even though she was catholic she doesn’t say it because she would get criticized even with the community. But I know that she believe, she says I believe in the tongues and the holy spirit, which is catholic but I know for her is was little bit more. But I don’t think she understand the whole religion part of it, she’s just like, you go to any Puerto Rican neighborhood and they have what they call botanicas, so you can go in there and buy candles and different things and that a regular store and they make good money because there’s a lot of people that buy that stuff. So m my mother was just kind of picking from that, she’s like one of those people that would pick a candle. Right, so she did believe and that so I wanted to say it, because it is part of our culture I mean it’s not just a religion, its apart of our culture, it’s a part of the fact that Puerto Ricans are Indian, African and European Spanish, so I have my light features because from the European Spanish. But even within our own family for 500 years we’re mix. So there’s also a saying in Puerto Rico that says y tu abuela donde esta? And your grandmother where is she? Meaning that all our grand mothers were from Africa. I mean that’s what they’re trying to day by this saying. Even though they weren’t all, what they mean is that we’re all mix; we cannot be prejudice against anybody, because we’re, we’re all, we’re all mixed people. So we’re mixed for 500 years, so talking about diversity… ROBERTSON: You were ahead of the game? JIMENEZ: We were ahead of the game a little bit, I think. But the problem also—it says that in the United States we don’t get our history. And, and so we’re, we’re not being taught that, although that’s common knowledge among Puerto Ricans that, that went to school in Puerto Rico. So, the Puerto Ricans that grew up here don’t [pause] don’t have that knowledge. We were, what the Young Lords were doing [pause] was to try to teach people about their history and, that’s one of the things that we, we promoted that we still promote. Page 8 �ROBERTSON: Say, I’m kind of curious moving onto that point… what was it like actually organizing and assembling the Young Lords? JIMENEZ: Well, that’s [pause] it wasn’t easy. I mean it’s still not easy today, I mean, ROBERTSON: Certainly. JIMENEZ: You kind of have to keep one step ahead of yourself, even today. [Pause] I mean, part of the reason I’m in Michigan has to, has to do with some of that, too. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But [pause] I got in, in, I went to jail, I got from the gang we went, we, there were different stages in the gang. We were first starting out; we’re just kind of just drinking and having a good time… ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then we started organizing ourselves and then we started trying to get a name for ourselves so we go to [pause] to other neighborhoods, to challenge them right in their own neighborhoods. to, to let ‘em know we can kick their butt in their own neighborhood. At that time it wasn’t like today where you just are shooting, but some of us had, some weapons, but just some of us. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Well we were going to another neighborhood. I remember going with Orlando one day and, and we went, and we used to have to walk around this one neighborhood because The Corps used to hang around there and The Corps was a [pause] was a grouping of a lot of Italian, Irish, Polish gangs, and they all… ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: They used to be the Saint Michael’s Drum and Bugle Corps but they [pause] they changed into a gang. They, they, they started The Corps themselves became a gang. so we used to have to, to go to… we had a branch in Old Town it was like ten blocks away from our other branch, so me and Orlando, Orlando was the founder of the gang—Orlando Davila—was the founder of the street gang. I was the founder of I was one of the original founders with him. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But I was the founder of the political group the Young Lords. So I transformed the gang into, into the Young Lords as a political movement. So anyway, we, we walk, one day we’re walking and we would always have to go around the churches. Orlando said, “what, I got my pistol from my father, we’re gonna walk—me and you are gonna walk right through there. And I’m going…[all laugh a bit] And I’m going to let you; you better protect me because I don’t have nothing. ROBERTSON: Right. Page 9 �JIMENEZ: I had like a little knife and that was it, but, we’re talking about like eighty people that we’re going right… ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: Going through eighty people on the playground, so we’re, we’re walking in there [pause] and, I mean, there was like a big pride in us because I knew he had that, that, that weapon. I knew that he had that, and, and at that time there weren’t that many people carrying guns like they do today. ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And today that wouldn’t work. [Chuckles] ROBERTSON: Yeah, I bet. JIMENEZ: But so usually they would have bats and sticks and stuff like that; throw rocks, whatever—or, cut you up or something like that. So anyway, we’re walking through the middle and I can see these, these, these guys are, you can hear them. “Whoa, look at these Puerto Ricans here, they think they’re bad. Look, they’re walking through our neighborhood,” that kind of stuff; ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And I’m just glowing, like I know they’re not gonna... No, but they’re kind of afraid; they don’t know what we got. They don’t know what we got, but finally they kind of surround us and that, and they go, “Whoa, you guys are bad,” and, I don’t know what Orlando told them. He just said something, but, all of a sudden, “We should kick your butt,” and that, something like that. Orlando said, “Well, come on!” and that… [Fumbling over words] when they took out the pistol he started shooting, like in the air, and it just emptied out—the whole playground emptied out. [Sounds of shock/amazement] JIMENEZ: But, I mean after that, [pause] after that we would walk through there; it was like, everything was okay. I mean, we, ‘cause we went to school with some of these people, so the next day I got to the school and then after that there was no more, like we couldn’t walk through there. Now, to, to some people they would say that that’s prejudice that we can’t walk through there, ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But we were looking at it more like from a gang point, point of view; but you can, today you can kind of look at it and say—well, what Puerto Ricans… ‘Cause we had the same problem at the beach; we couldn’t, Puerto Ricans couldn’t go to the beach, so it wasn’t just the youth, it was the adults. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We couldn’t go to North Avenue Beach in Chicago, and that was in our neighborhood, so we had to go to Fullerton Beach, and, so the beaches were segregated. Chicago was a, was a segregated town at that time. It’s still somewhat segregated—where you have different, Puerto Ricans in one area; Mexicans in another; Page 10 �ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Italians in another; Irish in another;, Polish in, in another; so, so there in Lincoln Park it was like that, but, and, and blacks. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So these three blocks would be Polish. These three blocks German; like that, and we couldn’t, like African Americans couldn’t move north of North Avenue. In Chicago, there’s a street called North Avenue; and you would hear that, I mean, I would hear that as a kid going to the barber shop I heard [pause] because I was light-skinned, they didn’t know I was Puerto Rican [laughs], ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So I’m sitting there getting my hair cut, I’m just a little kid, and I’m hearing these adults talking about, “Mayor Daley, he’s not gonna let no blacks move past North Avenue. We don’t have to worry about that,” So, this was during the time of Urban Renewal, but I didn’t know that. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So there, so, so Urban Renewal to us was it was like a master plan for that city for—a fifty year master plan to clean up the lakefront and the downtown area. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And we were just caught up in the middle of that—the Lincoln Park neighborhood and Wicker Park later. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Because now Wicker Park no longer exists as we knew it then. That was also a Puerto Rican community, and it was wiped off the map. and I’m saying, you’re talking about thirty or forty thousand people to sixty thousand people in a neighborhood. ROBERTSON: They just had to up and relocate. JIMENEZ: Right, I mean they were like sixty thousand people, but let’s say a good thirty percent of that were, were Puerto Rican. That’s a good percentage, and we were all centered in the central part of the area. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: The rest were, were the lakefront that was always the same way. They called it the Gold Coast, so there was no urban renewal there. but in our neighborhood it was completely wiped out and just robbed; it was a land grab. I mean, they took they tra… they bought—they did it— legally, it was legal, a legal land grab. so, [fumbles over words] everything was done legally, if you, if you think that out of, out of a city council with fifty elder men and forty-nine of them are democrats, so if that’s legal to you [all laugh] Page 11 �JIMENEZ: Forty-nine out of fifty are voting one way, with Mayor Daley. So, if that’s le… if that’s called laws, making laws, I don’t know where to… [Laughing] I don’t know where it’s democracy; it’s definitely not the Americas. And they call themselves democrats; that’s the other thing, see. Here, it’s, it was strange for me to come to Michigan because everybody’s Republican, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And I’m going like, “I can’t tell the difference.” It’s, [all laugh], we’re still in the same boat. But, [pause] but anyway, I got off track again, I, I don’t know maybe we’ve got another question. ROBERTSON: Let’s see… yeah just I mean that process of organizing… JIMENEZ: Oh, organizing; okay, yeah. Okay, so we were in the gang—we’re gang banging, we’re doing all this stuff—I come out of jail, I’m in jail and I start reading, I got put in the hole, ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And they said, we go to jail and, and all the Puerto Ricans hang out together, that’s just common. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so there was some, some gangs there and they said “Those guys are a gang and they, and they want to attack us,” so they’re telling the guards; and then they’re talking about escaping because this one guy, we were joking and he’s, he’s putting his head through the window. So they say, “If you can put your head through the window, you’re gonna put your whole body,” So he’s, but he’s just joking; we’re not talking about escaping. He’s just, playing games. We’re just passing the time away; ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And so anyway that night they, they took us all downstairs, strip-searched us, and, took us to the hole; and that was a, a, a city jail so, so it was a, the house of correction? ROBERTSON: Mmh. JIMENEZ: So the most you do there is a year, and but, and I was doing sixty days and everybody else was doing like ten days, or something like that. So I had the most time; I had just come in, and now I’m like, they’re saying that I’m trying to escape so they’re putting me in maximum security, which is the hole, which means I don’t get out of my cell but once a week for a shower, and that’s it, and that’s with a guard. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So, you’ve got a lot of time to read; there’s not, no, nobody else there but you. I mean, it’s an old Civil War, Civil War cell house, so the catwalk, instead of being steel, it was wooden; and they had, they had big cats to get the rats, ‘cause there were rats, and there were roaches. ROBERTSON: Wow. Page 12 �JIMENEZ: I mean can you imagine going to jail [all laugh] and you gotta deal with roaches in jail. [Laughs] Oh, man; but, and then it was real cramped up cells and stuff like that. So I mean, you had nothing else, you’re spent most of the day in your underwear and, and, and you listen to the radio which is on a loud, those loud speakers like on M.A.S.H. that t.v. program. They had like loud speakers that you would hear the radio all day; and [pause] so you had a lot of time to, to, to, to think there. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so, I’m coming with my family—my mother being religious and that, and, and she had tried to convince me to become a priest anyways, at one time, before I got into the gang thing. I started trying to reflect and, and I wanted to go to confession—, as a Catholic you want to go to confession— and confess my sins and, and then I was using. I went from the gang to the drugs. That’s what, what you lead to; it goes from the gang to the, to the hard drugs. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so I said, “I don’t want,” “I don’t want the hard drugs,” I want to get away from that. a little beer and that, that’s fine. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: [Pause] But I don’t, I didn’t want to be involved with the, with the drugs, with the hard drugs. So, I went to confession and then they, I wanted to go to confession and the guard says, “Well, what you’re trying to do is just get out of your cell;” so, “we can’t let… you can’t go to confession.” I said, “What do you…” so I start trying to get legal on him, “You’re trying to,” you’re trying to well, I mean not legal, I just tried to tell him, “All I want to do is go to confession. Can I have the priest come here?” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: He said, “I don’t know if we can do that.” So I said, “Well, I’m asking,” . So he told me, “Put a note, and we’ll do that;” so that’s what I did, and then all of a sudden the priest came and, —, I it took a little bit because I had, you’re in a p-prison-like environment, [pause] and, you’re gonna go to confession, that’s like drinking [laughing] cookies and milk, what I’m saying? ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: It’s like, “Are you trying to be a Cub Scout in here? You can’t be a Cub Scout. You gotta… you’re not going along with the program.” But anyway I didn’t care; what I’m saying? I was, I was, … it was… when I believe in something that’s the way I, I was ? I, I didn’t care. That’s what I learned from my, from my mother and from her religion and stuff like that and so I said, “I don’t care. We’ll go to confession right here,” and, you feel like an-anybody when they go to confession. You feel pretty good afterwards and, and so I start… so now I’m hearing all this stuff about the Black Panthers, and I’m going to confession and then I hear the Black Panthers are on the radio and they’re taking over a courthouse in Alameda, California and they’re going with guns and everything to take over, and I’m going like, “Wow,” “this is great! This is what we need to do.” [all laugh] So I’m gonna change my life. I’m gonna stop gang banging and I want to become a revolutionary; what I’m saying? I don’t want to, … so then, Page 13 �then at the same time they’re bringing Martin Luther King… is, is, is killed, and so they’re bringing in the people that are riding, they’re bringing them into our cell house. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: So we’re looking at them from the top of, our cells. We’re looking down as they’re being [pause] shaken down, to see if they’ve got that… anything in there. Then they’re being asked questions diagnostic… questions, when they come in. So they’re bringing in riders and all of a sudden they’re also they’re doing raids on, on Mexican undocumented workers. So they’re bringing them in, and now there’s black guards--there’s not that many Spanish guards—but there’s black and white guards mainly. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But I’m looking at the black guards and they’re pushing the, the Latinos, and even though they’re Mexican or Puerto Rican—but they’re still Latinos, just like me; and so I’m going like, “Why don’t you leave those people alone? You don’t, you don’t,” I’m yelling; we’re yelling—the few Latinos that are up in the jail. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We’re yelling out, “Why don’t you leave them people alone? They’re not messing with you. They don’t understand what you’re talking about.” So, they would start asking a couple of qu- they would ask, the couple of black guys that were pretty good they would ask us a couple questions so we could help them translate. So then, I asked them, I said, “ what, I’ll translate,” “there’s not a problem. I’ll…” “Oh, you want to get out of your cell again.” I said, “No, no, no, no; I’ll do it from here.” [laughter] So I started yelling the questions and answers, back and forth and, that kind of helped me, also. I was like, I’m, I’m, I’m kind of serving my people or something like that, or in a way. so, so the riders and the Mexican, undocumented workers that were coming through there… and then I’m reading about Martin Luther King. The first book I read, though, was Thomas Merton, and I found out later he, he, he was a Trappist Monk, and I felt like a Trappist Monk [all laugh] in the cell, so he was, like, going through the same kind of stuff. So then, [pause] so I read that first, so that’s why I went to confession. I mean, that made me go to confession, the fact that he was religious and all that. But then I started reading Martin Luther King, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then I read Malcom X also. so that was two different philosophies: one was for peace, and one was for by any means necessary. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: [interviewee coughs] Excuse me, and then I’m, I’m hearing about the, the Panthers on, on the radio at the same time, and then... Anyway, I get out, I said, “What I need to do, what we need to do is to, to do the same thing for Puerto Ricans, ; ‘Cause we don’t have nothing like the Panthers. This is what we need to do.” Page 14 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So I came out with that idea, I’m gonna come out and I’m gonna try to ‘cause I was still the leader of the Young Lords at that time. So, I’m gonna try to do something with the Young Lords and do that, because I knew every time you go to jail they, the, the gang kind of breaks up a little bit and… ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: They don’t break up but they don’t, they don’t meet. There’s no meetings in there, … ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: That wasn’t to meet; and so, I came out but I had to deal with other stuff. I had to deal with— [laughing] I didn’t have a job, ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: What I’m saying, and so I, I got into this, program at the Argonne National Laboratory where half of the day I would be a janitor and the other half I would study for my GED. ROBERTSON: Nice. JIMENEZ: So, [pause] that was a riot, too. [laughing] But I mean, that, that, … we used to hide out and everything like that [all laughing] from our work, but we did, but we did… Anyway, they took us on a [pause] on a field trip to the Democratic convention and we saw the hippies getting beaten up; and before that, like I said, we used to cut the hippies’ hair. I mean, we just, just… they were there in Old Town, so they were there with us. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: It… Many of them were our friends, but we would do it just, just as, as a prank. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And like I said, we fought with the sailors and that so it wasn’t no big thing, but [pause] but anyway, we went to the Democratic convention and now they’re… we’re all former gang members or, or, or we’re still gang member’s but we’re studying for GED. So in there we’re getting along, everybody gets along because we’re all for the same thing. We’re trying to, get our GED. So we go to the Democratic convention and the police are running to get the hippies and they’re beating them up, but they’re beating up reporters, and we’re saying to ourselves, “If they come to us,” everybody’s saying, “Is everybody going to stand for themselves?” and everybody said, “Yeah, we’re ready.” so I mean you could tell that we were, we, we were going to fight. Our thing was not peace. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We were [laughing] we were gang bangers and we don’t know anything about what’s going on, we just came on, on a trip, a high school trip here. Page 15 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: They’re not going to beat us up, so… So anyway, when they came, we just kept walking straight. I remember about five or six of us, and the, and the professor—the teacher—and the police ran around us. They did… they, they could, I mean the way we were dressed, they could tell that we were not part of that, that crowd. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So it wasn’t that we put fear in them, [laughter] it’s just that these guys are not any part of this. They kind of let us go, but that kind of stuck [pause] seeing people getting beat up, that kind of stuck in my, in my head ‘cause we would get beat up by the police, too. that kind of stuff, and all this kind of stuff that I was reading. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So, anyway I had, I… On a different day, I met this lady, Pat Devine, and she was with some— two other people from the Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park, and I’m talking to Benny, who was a Young Lord, and he was in his uniform and he’s proud that he just… he’s on leave from Vietnam, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And this lady comes in, and I’m looking at the neighborhood since I got out—I was only gone sixty days ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And I could see the changes ROBERTSON: Wow. JIMENEZ: and this lady, I mean, they would… I mean, one-way streets, two-way streets, or one-way streets, you could see people getting thrown out by the sheriff and, and I’m talking to Benny, my friend, my best friend. He’s a Young Lord and he’s in a uniform and he’s proud. He’s a, a Vietnam veteran and all this stuff, —the Vietnam War because we were the ones who were put in the front lines. our, our people, … and this nice lady is telling him, “You’re killing the, the, the [pause] Vietnamese people,” and all this other stuff. I’m going like… so I go to his defense. To Benny’s defense and I used… I don’t mean any disrespect—I go, “Look, you [laughs] white bitch,” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: “who the heck do you think you are? You’re kicking us out of our neighborhood, and this man is fighting for our, for our people; and you’re kicking us out of our neighborhood against…”, “You’re a Communist,” and she goes, “I’m proud to be a Communist.” I go, “Oh no! [laughter] This lady’s crazy. This lady’s way out there; this lady’s crazy.” So, … so, anyway she, she hit me hard; harder than another guy would hit me—I mean she knocked me down with the way she, the way she could express herself and stuff like that; Page 16 �ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And, so it made me stop to think, and then, then I was a-already thinking about urban renewal and she says, “, we’re f… we’re… our organization is trying to fight to help people stay here,” . So, I mean, it started making sense to me. You get what I’m saying? So anyway, that night the, the other guys that were trying to rap to her and to her other friend and, and trying to, they were just trying to just rap to her but I was interested more in what she was saying; ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And, anyway, she invited me and Benny and, and everybody else to go to her house. just to relax and stuff like that—have a, have a few beers, stuff like that. So we did that, and we… I remember we were just talking all night, I mean we were sitting there talking and, and, and I’m asking her questions about it and stuff like that; and so she invited me and … me to, to, to come to a meeting. She said, “Well, can you bring any people to come to the urban renewal meeting,” ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And I’m going, “I can bring a thousand people. I’m the leader,” [laughter] that kind of stuff. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So she said, “Well it’s going to be in about three weeks,” “just, whatever you can come… whatever, as many people as you can get just bring them,” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: “Because it’s an important meeting about the neighborhood.” it was the Department of Urban Renewal was coming in. So that’s… this is a long story, but it’s… that’s when I started organizing and then I found out that, that to get people to come to a gang fight was a lot easier than to get ‘em to come to a meeting. [all laugh] what I’m saying? I mean, I, I went, I, I… people are supposed to organize like in the houses and stuff like that—well I didn’t know—I organized on street corners and in the bars. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: That’s all I knew. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: The street corners and the bar. So I, I remember going to the bar of, of another gang ‘cause I’m trying to reach out to everybody, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: All the different gangs, and I remember going into the bar and they go, “Oh, here comes that nut again, Cha Cha,” [all laugh] and, and, and even the bartender didn’t want me in there. ROBERTSON: Wow. Page 17 �JIMENEZ: And I’m talking and I said, “man, they’re kicking us out of our neighborhood,” and, real basic stuff. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: I… “You see these one-way signs,” and all this, real basic stuff. “Oh, you’re a Communist,” and I go, “I’m a Communist? Come on out and tell me that.” [laughter] So I would go out and get beat up [laughs] and then they would buy me a drink and, it went like that. like I said, I got beat up a lot of times and put down and, and and, basically they didn’t want you there. The bartender didn’t want you there, you’re messing with his customers. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: The guys didn’t want to hear, they don’t want to talk about that. they… politics, they don’t want to… and they thought I was crazy and stuff like that. So it was like a, … but I learned that from my mom. I mean, I learned that you had to be, you had to be committed. You had to stay, stay with it; that it takes time to, to organize something. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: I mean, it wasn’t easy. Those kids come into the house, for catechism, wasn’t just they did a lot of stuff; they did the catechism, and then they did, rosaries like because what their goal was to get Spanish mass… ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: In the churches. There was no Spanish mass. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And, their goal was also to get them… they would have, they finally got some Spanish masses, but then they put—they did the mass in the hall instead of the regular church because it was offensive to the, to the regular parishioners; and there was, there was not enough Puerto Ricans to, to, to… They felt that there was not enough Puerto Ricans, but actually the hall was getting more filled up than the church. [laughing] what I’m saying? ROBERTSON: Right, right. JIMENEZ: but they did a lot of good stuff; and then they worked with the gangs. I mean, the, I mean they, the… It became a community, because when there was a big gang epidemic, when we started fighting and stuff like that, they started organizing dances—weekly, weekly dances. So they were smart; they made money [pause] and they work, they work with their kids. They were, they could see their kids, so I mean… and they could promote, proselytizing, that’s what you call it. they could promote their, their church, also. out of that community, Lincoln Park came the first Puerto Rican parade of Chicago; out of this, this group called, the Knights of St. John, which was equivalent to the Knights of Columbus; ROBERTSON: Okay. Page 18 �JIMENEZ: And the Damas de María, Hijas de María, “Daughters of Mary”, in Spanish… [pause] But out of that they’re organized; my parents became that, and then we did our own organizing as youths, the Young Lords; because we didn’t just… When we, when, when we started to grow as Young Lords we didn’t just organize the Young Lords, we organized all the other youth in the area, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: All the other youth groups and stuff like that. But yet, the, the organizing part was, … I took you on a whole trip [laughing] to tell you that I was getting beat up every day... [all laugh] that it wasn’t that easy, that, the organizing; and, and, and then we got beat up by the cops later, so that’s, so that’s a different story. I mean, after we get organized we’re thinking that we’re doing good, good things, right. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: ‘Cause we’re, we’re not fighting. We’re refusing to fight any, anybody. we’re not, we’re trying to stay away from drugs; we don’t, we don’t want… we’re opposed to drugs. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We are for discipline; we want people to give more discipline. we want people to go to school; I mean, we thought we were doing everything the right way, but we begin to get attacked, by the police. for doing the… now they hate us more than when we were in, in a gang. They literally hate us more; I mean, they’re… anybody that’s wearing our button, they’re putting them against the wall and shaking them down, and these are community people who are wearing our buttons. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: They had a car parked twenty-four hours a day in front of our, our, our church; we did take over the church, but it became our headquarters and we had a daycare center there. We had a free breakfast for children program; we had a free health clinic; and we had cultural educational classes that were taught in the church. So, before it was empty. So we did take it over, and then, but right away the next day after we took it over… because the pastor had been working with us, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: It was the congregation that was opposed to us. We told them it’s not really a take-over, we just want to work together with, with the church for the community; and that pastor was later killed about six months later because it’s a cold case. It hasn’t been, [pause] proven who killed him or why. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But we know that, during that time he was killed, another pastor was killed, and Fred Hampton from the Panthers were killed. So we knew that it was some kind of pattern going on there at the time but we, but we can’t prove it. I mean we, we know that; and, and out of respect for the family we, we didn’t promote it at that time. we didn’t talk about it that, that, that much. just out of respect for them, but by not talking about them people thought that we had something to do with it; because they used knives and all Puerto Ricans are supposed to carry knives. I mean they, but, it was a, … Page 19 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: People that, that, that read about it they could tell that it was something related to passion [fumbling over words] because of the way he was stabbed; he was stabbed seventeen times and his wife nine times. so it was, that was passion that tells you… it had to do with passion. ROBERTSON: Certainly. JIMENEZ: Now, when we took over the church we put Che Guevara as a mural; we put out Lisa Compos, which is another, Puerto Rican—nationalist from Puerto Rico; we put Lolita Lebrón, another Puerto Rican nationalist woman; we put Adelita, a woman from Mexico; and we put Emiliano Zapata on the wall. We put, like I said Che Guevara was on, was on the wall; so that could make somebody in the congregation… because the congregation was mostly Cuban exiles, so that could make Cuban exiles angry. We didn’t think about it because, we were thinking, “We’re Puerto Ricans,” and the community was mainly Puerto Rican; ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But, I could see why that would make them very angry that they’re first to put a mural of Che Guevara on their church wall. I mean, today I wouldn’t do that, I mean, … ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But we, we didn’t … We didn’t mean any harm by that, but I mean, … but I’m saying that could be one of the reasons. Now another, another thing was that we protested against the local mafia because he had put a sub-machine gun on a Puerto Rican business owner, because he, the business owner owned a restaurant and couldn’t afford the rent at that time. So the, the, the real estate office, who was, who was also the local mafia guy—and the reason I know he was the local mafia guy was my father. He used to sell the, bring the money for the numbers to him. So I knew, [laughing] so I knew that personally. Yeah, he was the local mafia; but any… but we still picketed in front of his place and, and I went with some, with some people that had a local tabloid newspaper, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And, and they took pictures while this guy put his sub-machine gun on me. All I did was put my finger in my pocket, I didn’t [ROBERTSON: Wow.] have a weapon. So I put my finger in my pocket because I didn’t know what else to do when he put the sub-machine gun… and he ran into the back office that had a window and started calling the police. The police comes in, he comes out with his submachine gun and the police is there, and they’re frisking me [ROBERTSON: What?!] while this guy’s holding a sub-machine gun, but we’re taking pictures. So we took pictures and we, and we put those on the newspaper tabloid—about twenty pictures all around the front page; ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then we, we, we split about twenty thousand copies of them, we spread through the neighborhood; Page 20 �ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And so, after that we didn’t, we didn’t break his windows, [laughs] but the adults were breaking them. Every Friday night they would break his window. He started with a big picture window and then… little, little, little blocks of windows; but, so it could have been, it could have been them too. I mean, it could have been the local mafia that we had to deal with, because the local mafia was the one pushing real estate with the city. It could have Lee Alderman, because Lee Alderman had an organization called United People to Inform Good-Doers and they were going through our garbage cans and stuff like that trying to find any information that they could to use against us. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And that they could publicize to the… they thought we were getting funding from the Methodist churches in the suburbs, so they, they publicized a few things in the suburbs, Lee Alderman did. Now, we also broke into Lee Alderman’s press conference and, and exposed them because he had gotten caught with a prostitute in the neighborhood, so we exposed him right in front of the media. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So he wasn’t too happy with that, either; [laughter] so we were making enemies, I mean is what I’m saying, and, and they, they were, our target was, was the pastor who was allowing us to… Oh, and they were also trying to, … there’s letters at DePaul University where they, they were sending letters to the bishop, trying to get the bishop to kick us out of the church; ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And he was saying no, that he was not, going to kick us out and the bishop was with us. he’s saying, “No, no,” “that’s his ministry and, and, and we’re gonna let him work with the youth. He’s working with the youth, so that’s his ministry.” So, so Lee Alderman and the committee, the uptight United People to Inform Good-Doers was definitely… had a campaign to try and get us out of there; and they were connected with the local mafia and the police and everybody else, so, so I don’t know… but then we also had the fact that we were part of a a rainbow coalition with the Black Panther Party and the Young Patriots, which was, an Appalachian white group that, that was, that we were working together with, and, so they… the Black Panther Party was being investigated by COINTELPRO, the Counter-Intelligence Program. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So anybody that was connected to them—and we definitely were—I mean, I was going to speaking engagements with, Fred Hampton many, many times and many days. We spent a whole day with him because he was helping train, train us also. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: We were learning from… so the- we had a lot of enemies at that time. We were in cir- what you call in circles, they were circling… we were the wagon and they were circling us. and we didn’t… and Page 21 �all we were trying to do was just, like to save our community; I mean, that’s all we were trying to do. We were probably saying too many things we didn’t need to say, but, other things, but I mean that was the main reason that, that we started was to save, to save the neighborhood;, save our ‘hood, save our neighborhood… but, [pause] but anyway, that’s how… That was a long one, right? [all laugh] JIMENEZ: I mean we did not understand how at that time I was well liked by a lot of people at that time and I know I should be liked more because I went through a program substance abuse programs and everything to change my negativity right. ROBERTSON: Mhmm JIMENEZ: I should be liked more, but I am hatted more ROBERTSON: Hmm? JIMENEZ: So that was we are saying was a concerted effort. To discredit me and what we were doing to people and that was one of the reasons that I ran for alderman and in nineteen seventy five it was more so that we could stay alive. As a movement and so that I ran in the neighborhood north of Lincoln Park which was lake view uptown because there were no more Puerto Ricans left in Lincoln park and in uptown they were starting to kick the Puerto Ricans out of there as well as like I said we kept moving north and west. So the aldermanic campaign I remember because we had to go underground and I went underground because I got arrested eighteen times in a six week period and for all felonies and so they were it was clear that they were trying to destroy the group in that way so I got a year and asked for a little time to straighten things out with my family and I took off and just went underground that meant that like today I could say that I am underground but because I am not in Chicago I am not in public or anything. But so we did that for like two and a half years which was I would have liked to looking back at it today I would have rather done two and a half years in jail then to be underground for two and a half years because at least in jail you have communication but I could not even communicate with my own family for two and a half years so that that’s why it was more difficult in that way but next time I would just take the jail time but anyway the while I was underground we organized a couple of movements a few more chapters of the young lords like in Los Angeles and San Diego and Hayward and Boston we worked with a group there so we were keeping a little busy while we were underground then what I decided was we needed like a training school for the leadership because I found out that Chicago was kinda falling apart a little bit m and they were starting to put drugs back in to the neighborhood so when I heard a lot of that stuff I said let’s get a group of people and we will rent a farm in Tomah Wisconsin I considered that because no one is there but we rented a farm in Tomah Wisconsin and about twenty three of use lived together like a commune but not really we had structure we would wake up in the morning and every one would have chores it was like a program and then people had to read. Like my mother I was not a teacher so I would tell them to read the book and discuss it I want I didn’t really have a plan you just have to read this book so we read it so read books like Frantz Fanon and books like that and some Lennon books but m we were mainly concerned with what they call the national question so that was the whole question of Puerto Rico, self-determination and how to organize that and in other words it was a two-step process because people were saying that we have to talk about the class struggle the poor vs. the rich and we were saying that we also have to talk about Puerto Rico we have a Page 22 �nation called Puerto Rico so it is ok to be a little nationalistic as long as you are also internationalist as long as it is not racist because we were against nationalism because that was racist but we said its ok to talk about that and be proud of that as long as you are still an internationalist and you respect everyone else and so that was to us the national question so said that before you can talk about class struggle m it is all collectivism or whatever but it’s all the same thing it’s all mixed up anyway but before we could even get to that point, but at that point everyone was talking about the class struggle or organize the workers and stuff like that and I’m going we can’t even get in to the job you want us to organize the job but we can’t even get in the plant so we are going to organize with in the community so that was what we decided that we needed not in the factory but in the community but I am not saying not to organize as an effect but our goal as an organization is to organize the values(27:55) to organize the communities and to look at it geographically to go door to door and that what we learned latter on with the aldermanice campaine and the mayoral campaine of mayor Washington was to go door to door that that was the best form of organizing we had programs but if you go door to door you don’t miss anybody and so our goal then became clear what our job had to be it was to go to each latino balto and try to organize door to door and stuff like that but we were never able to because of funding and other stuff we were never able to accomplish that goal completely, but it did spread and it did spread to other cities like that like creating base areas we called it but that was the kind of stuff that we started at the training school and that we did that for about two years and then from there we started doing target practice because we though that the revelution was going to be the next day and this guy blew his thumb off (Ha-ha) so we had to close down the place we had to get out of there because I was wanted by the law and so every one could have gone to jail but I had to so we moved from there to millwalky and we put out a newspaper and then whent back to Chicago and got appartments and people lived togeather and today when I am doing these interviews today there are still living togeather in the same apartment you go to one apartment house and everone in the building is an organizer that works togeather but they are not all young lords they are in different group but they learned from us because that is what we did so we went back to Chicago and we I actualy was livng a couple of blocks from the police station were I turned myself in laterbut we planed the turning of myself back in, turning my self in. but it is like they are not going to do this for us we have to do it aurselfs so passed out flyers all over the neighborhood and we sent them to peole in the media to make sure that they would be there and stuff like that and then we had about five hundered people when it was like four below zero(25:36) and there was like five hundered people marching when I turned myself in and basecly I wwnt downtown and took a cab and drove up to the police station and the marchers are on this side and I am paying the cab driver and I start to walk in to the crowd and I start shaking hands with every body and the loyers were there and the police grabed me right away but I was able to shack hands with a few people and then because of the layers they let me talk through a loud speaker to the crowed and stuff like that and so that was good I mean it was a good event but the fact that we had five hundered people show up at four below zero was pretty amazing that was pretty good and then right away they took me and I started my year in jail and wial I was doing the year in jail we were planning the alderman campaign and so when I can outit was easy because people know that I had just came out of jail and I am running for alderman(24:35) so I mean that brought news but we did a good campaine we had 39 percent of the vote for the first time and all you need is 51 percent to win and usualy the first time people get like one percent but I mean we did pretty good. And the second time it was not me running but the major and Page 23 �we helped him win the election so it was a different feeling from picket signes to, I think two hours are up, right (Ha-ha) from picket signes we went to a victory we won a majors we won a majors race and it was a different fealing because I could wallk in to city hall and see the major when I want just callhim up and say that I am on my way I did not have anything important to talk to him about it was just to say hello (Ha-ha) but it was a great fealing. I remember that night when we won because see our office was the fullerton office and it was mixed it was divers and latino were atomaticly going to go vote for herald not attomaticly I mean that we had to do our work but we were winning eighty to ninty present for herald Washington major the first African American major and in the purto rican area and in the anglo community in the white community they did not do that well but still with out them getting any vote we would have not have won and so I remember how hapy they were too I mean it was like hay we won like yea we did it. So it was a good fealing I am telling you I i remember my cousin I had submitted his name for the some liberary board and and I walk in to city hall and there was a couple of other people there with me and I see him and I great him an I go hay how are you doing Carmelo and he goes hay cha cha how are you and I says if you cant he says that if you came to see that major he is out of town you will not be able to see him and I’m going like I’m thinking that he is out of town I just talked to him but I did not tell him that so I said ok he said that I have been here a couple of hours and I am going to see the cheaf of staff because they are going to put me on the library board and I am going I know because I put your name (Ha-ha)ha but anyway so I’m going in there and this guy herald safical the security guard he is a cop major safle but he is a progressive cop he was with the he was for the panthers and things like that. And he goes hay cha cha so I say ok and I go in to the back and sure enough halrald Washington in in the back (Ha-ha)ha he was not out of town we was in the backbut I had gone to see him because I had went with some bills to his office and I sayed who is paying for this because I don’t have no money (Haha)so that was pretty pretty amazing times at that time and then he won again the second time but I did not work on that I was in Michigan during the second time but that was a victory for us because what happened is because we were the first group, latino group in the city to indorce him we did not ask for money you see our thing was more poklitical and we did not ask we were conserned about the community we were we vote we worked on his campaine because he rep… in fact it was called neighberhoods vs. downtown so that is why it fit in with what we were in to (20:37) so we were for his campaine and we know he had that he was very progressive person and we wanted anyone to defeat the daily machine so he was against that so so when he won he he organized he we did we and the office of special events for Chicago organized an event in the purto rican neighborhood of humble park and there were a hundered thousand Puerto Ricans in that park I mean wall to wall Puerto Ricans in that park and I was the only one on stage introducing the major at that time and he and he we were able to be able to choose that band that played it was willy colone and when he came to town people would pay like 40 50 dollars to see him and so they were seing him for free so that loded it up plus we did media on the radio and stuff like that that was payed from the budget of the office of special events so we were kind of directing it but they were kinds supling the money and the expertise to quordinate it because he had invited all of the community leaders to sit in a band shell or what ever but I was the only one on stagewith introducing the major but that is that whole speech in in the wikipidia article it’s a hole little two minite speech that I gave. Introducing him cus there that to use represented the victory we had went from a gang or what ever from an…to to becoming the young lords picketing protesting to taking over occupy they use the word occupy to day but we were calling it takeovers then and and our Page 24 �takovers we won we did not leave till our demands were met and and we were so unpredictabale that they wanted to give us the demands so what ever you want you can have (Ha-ha) because they did not know were we were going to come from so there was a few of us running around with guns (Ha-ha) and we are not leaving so I mean but and the families but we would have got killed but the families that were in side wial we took over micormic seminary for example we were there for a whole week the demands were $605,000 for them to invest in to low income housing, $25,000 for the health clinic for two health clinics so that was $50,000 and then another $25,000 to open up a peoples law center. (17:57) because the loyers were helping us negosheate we were there for a whole week we took it over the young lords and the next day and we did not even plan for food for provitions so today they would havewiped us out that is what they do today they some body took over some other place the other day in Chicago and they would not allow any food in. but you see what happened with us the community came and brought food the net day and then we let them come in so the next day we had three hundred and fifty people and and what happened is that when the police were wanting to attack us they decided to bring in the kids not us we did not want the kids to come in side but they said no no we are going to bring the kids so that that way they wont attack they wont come in and then the students were in the front of the building the students were our security in front so it was a seminary it was a complex like this it was a big complex we are talking about depaul university and it is today at that time it was called micormic theological seminary so it was a big complex like this and we took over the administration building a three level three story administration building and we were there we lived in there for a week in fact we won all of the demands and I told everybody that ok we can leave now and they went I am not leaving I have an office and no we got to leave (Ha-ha) we got to leave we did not leave but we had fun doing that they had music they had a lot of descution groups nothing but talk everyone was just talking all day and so every one came close by talking and became close and then we won all of the demands and we thretone to burn down the liberary because they were thretining to come in so we said we are going to go take over the liberary and then we are going to burn it down if we have to burn it down we don’t care that night is when they called us for the meeting “cough excuse me” that night is when they called us for the meeting but about two oclock in the morning and they said what what ever demands you wantwe will sign we will agree to your demands they had a little we had just read your demands and if thoughs are your demands then we will give you all of the demands you ask and I sayed ok so than the next day we were but I remember having press conferenses every day on top (Ha-ha) of the thing they had a little window sill that we would have press conferences out of there is a picture of that some were there is a picture but I have it some were but anyway so that is I don’t remember were we were at there a tangent I guess. ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) Yea its like your saying coming from that level of street corner talk to political standing. JIMENEZ: How much time do we have left. ROBERTSON: Well we have as much time as we need. JIMENEZ: Ok Page 25 �ROBERTSON: As far as the questions. I was curious, I mean like you were saying, born in Puerto Rico, never really knowing it to much coming hear like you said when you were two years old and just moving around as much as you have like what are essential elements for you to consider some place home? JIMENEZ: Well my home is been Chicago that has been my home but my home is also but it does not exist any more I mean linken Park does not exist anymore I really don’t know when I was fifteen years old I went and stayed for about a year in Puerto Rico and and that was I was put on the plan in handcuffs and sent to Puerto Rico they were trying to deport me because I was the leader of the young lords and I had got some kind of case were we broke in to a house or something at the time and and I was not even good at that but that was something from the gang days and anyway I was still a juvenile and we will either put you hear and I was fourteen or something we will put you in a sharaten and shareten was a juvenile prison until your twenty one like juveniles htat have commited murders or something would go there or dangerous criminals they thought that I was a dangerous criminal or I don’t know I was never the fighter Orlando was the fighter in the group I was more always the organizer but Orlando never wanted to lead so I was the leader of the group. (12:48) but anyway so my mother said that I don’t want my son to go to jail till he was twenty one years old I will send him to Puerto Rico but I was balling I was crying I did not want to go but they took us in a pady wagon from the jail to the airport and at the airport they watched us from up above ant they let me talk to my parents and they walked me to the door and I I was that was when I started crying cuz I could not control myself cuz I did not know were I was going I’m like cheradin I knew were I was going and I will find friends who are there in jail I mean it is a life of jail so people but in Puerto Rico I didn’t know anybody or I thought I didn’t know anybody once I got there my uncle who met me he had come back and forth to Chicago several times so I did know him and other uncles and ants that had come back and fourth because we are like a shudle culture so we travel back and fourth all the time but I did not know that at first so but I went there at first and right away they said gangster from Chicago alcapone (Ha-ha) right away that was what everyone was thinking so but I remember hanging out with the priest because he was the only guy that I could talk to in English and I remember smiling because my grandmother would ask me stuff and I would just smile because I did not know the heck what she was saying and my grandfather woud get mad he would say he knows he knows he is just pretending that kind of thing but he was the backwards guy my father was bad he was wors but he was the one who tought me about the country and stuff like that I would hang out with him and go up to him on the mountain because the farm was a mountain the farm was not flat land it was on a mountain all of Puerto Rico is like that it is all hilly so the farms are all hlly and stuff like that so you have to climb and it is good because you climb to the top and there is fresh airy cool fresh air (10:37) when you go to the bottom it is all hot and but I got to know slowly I even went with one pare of shoes and had to save them for like Sunday so I walked around like what do you call it huckel berry fin is that with out shoes I mean I walked around that is what we did at that time we could not people could not afford shoes and that so they would save there shoes for like Sunday and that but I hung around witht the prist and I remembered I did not get in to any real big truble all though I did steal his hourse (Ha-ha) and his jeep one time because I fell in love with this girl in another bouyo another part of Puerto Rico and I was hanging out with and I was not trying to steel it I was just trying to barrow it (Ha-ha) butthat is what guys do when they are young and in love. So I I took his hourse one day and the jeep and then every one in the hole the thing is that every one goes to church on suday so if you do Page 26 �not go to church on Sunday you have to hide you don’t let anyone know that you are not at church cuz its like a country and its just one church and every body for miles away you can see form all the hils so we would go I remember cause he made me go to confection in front of everybody and that kind of stuff and that but he became like a friend of mine he got me a job in a in a hard wear store a ferreta they call it and I remember I met a guy from New York that was helping me because I would just sit there and stand in the front counter and people would come there and ask me something like a nail or something and I would not know but hten they ask me for something like a fouset and I right away I would have to go to my friend from new york whats this mean calesa what is he saying but I learned Spanish I had to learn Spanish that way and I even learned the song and stuff like that and in Christmas time that’s a big holiday in Puerto Rico the the three kings but it because of the American culture it starts like on crismas eve and then it last till January six which is the day of the three kings and everyone goes house to house and there like trubidors so they like sing and they improvise and so all my uncles and stuff like that they know how to improvise and before they had radio that was the way that they that was there music after they work in the fields all day they would come back and at night time and I learned it from my mom from researching her and at knighting like that my brothers and that we would just hang out on the purch and the vatey the yard ike hear like the yard hear they were not that big but they would there was a clearance because the rest was jungle you are talking about a tropical place so there was a little clearing in the front called the batay and they would sing there music there that was there radio that was how they relaxed at night and stuff like that but today it is only used mainly at Christmas time but before it was used for any holiday if you die you get a batranda they call it if you a birthday you get a bathranda wedding baptism whatever you get a bathranda but now it is just mainly done for Christmas for Christmas time and stuff like that but it is they are really celebrating the the three kings verses santa clouse and in fact they have an improvisation were one guy( 6:52) would say well I believe in Santa clause and the other would say no I am Puerto Rican I believe in the Three Kings but they are both Puerto Ricans but because we believe in both because of the influences but that type of music my uncles that I grew up with hear even though I did not grow up in Puerto Rico I grew up with that kind of music here for Christmas we would get together the family and we would sing thoughs songs and then and believe me I have some uncles that are pretty good at improvising and they would I remember one time we went to this house one of our ants house and they had just finished painting the house I mean you could smell the paint and so they come to the door and they start with whatever and they would start singing and they would say what a beautiful house it has such nice furniture and stuff like that and the walls must have been painted by the brush of pecaso (Ha-ha) so then it so then everyone had to rhyme with that at the end they would be they would sing a song and the last vers was it was done with the brush of Picasso so I mean they that was how it works that music that kind of music but it was great music I mean its also n the web there is a bunch of websites and stuff on there on the YouTube and stuff like that but yea we grew up with so I learned a little bit about the culture and I came back and I remember the young lords sweter cause I came back before around the year o yea I came back around the year that my father comes and the first thing he does is that the tetarus the tetarus are the riffraff’s of the neighborhood and I was one of them and he was one of them everyone from there in that section growing up became one of them so its like a gang but it’s a community gang so everyone knows them nobody worried about them (Ha-ha) but they are always stealing the eggs or something but no one pays attention to them they all talk and they all scape goat them like they scape goat gangs here but they Page 27 �scape goat them but they are all kids so they cant really hate them and every single one of them would snake out there so there really all really part all the men are apart of the thing (Ha-ha) ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) JIMENEZ: And they would hang out in front of the store and look at the women and look at every one but anyway I remember but they would do serves to because my because the people that would come and visiting they would take there suit case and carry them to make them feel important for a tip and I remember my father he is over here coming to pick me up(3:57) and to visit and he hadn’t visited me all year but here he is coming to visit me but at least he’s I’m happy because he is going to take me back to Chicago so then I remember right away the titas they would carry his suit case and yea no problem and he is showing off and I am going I don’t know pops you got to slow down on the money because he starts buying everyone drinks and you got to slow down the money and I’m looking at his pants pocket like he is half way drunk he’s got his pants on and there is food stamps so the next day I tell him what are you doing showing off and you got food stamps (Ha-ha) so I said and he did not even have a job at that time my mother was the one that was working and he was getting well fair so that was the vasod that Puerto Ricans hear that was a contradiction that I was seeing how our people were acting and how it was not real how our people were playing the lottery but telling me that I cant do certain things that are not legal I said you’re not legal you are selling the numbers and what I am saying you’re your selling the numbers you’re playing the Spanish bingo which is not legal now I don’t know why that shouldn’t be legal but because they play it at the churches they play bingo at the churches so I mean that is another contradiction right but the Spanish bingo was illegal I don’t know why I mean they just they just did it for a quarter or a dime or whatever not a big thing but there were so many contradictions that you see and stuff like that then you go to school and then they are teaching you one thing and how even coming here to grand valley so and one class were they show us pictures and they say what does this person look like and everyone goes all right they had a picture of a hippy and they got a migrant worker and something like that and they go well he is a losser and this is in one of our classes and I’m going like I did not say nothing but I’m thinking to myself that guy looks like my dad how are you going to call my dad a losser he is not a loser I mean he did not have any money but he was a good parent I mean he what I am saying I mean ROBERTSON: Yea they were generalizing JIMENEZ: Yea he was a little macho and stuff like that but then(1:27) my mom had a little thing for the macho (Ha-ha) she says that a macho is a guy who can raise a family (Ha-ha) be a man he’s not he is not a macho he is not a man when he would get smart she would put him down ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) JIMENEZ: I mean it was a part of the culture thing because they also labeled macho to to mean for Spanish people and it is in all cultures and stuff like that so he was a little macho by culture he thought he was the big shot but he did not works she would put him down like I am the bread winner you don’t work you are on well fair (Ha-ha) so I mean there were so many contradictions and and that came in to play when we got in to the young lords and stuff like that and but we got in to the young lords we like I Page 28 �said we were learning from the panthers and stuff like that and we needed the whole question of selfdetermination and the whole the whole the main reason that we started was the displacement of our community we were being kicked out but then we related that to is this thing going out are we recording? ROBERTSON: I am kind of queries yea JIMENEZ: Oh ok actually the other stuff you can probable get out of the Wikipedia thing (Ha-ha) I gave you stuff that is not on there END OF INTERVIEW Page 29 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a554612e6ea23035344655137db3604.mp3 fa9084f027e31f5aac64e45563d48a7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Jimenez_Jose Title A name given to the resource Jose Jimenez audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimenez, Jose Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robertson, Timothy Hood, Ashlie Perez, Angelica Description An account of the resource Jose Jimenez was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico and lived in Chicago. He discusses his experiences as the leader of the Young Lords and an activist for Latin Americans. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9aa2d6441443b4c771e133be82fbf84c.pdf 439e624e384f0d104825ff4bdc473c0d PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jeff Lichon Interviewers: Grace Faoro, Cody Holtrop, Eli Rytlewski and Michael Vallentine Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/3/2012 Biography and Description Jeff Lichon was born and raised in West Michigan. He discusses his struggles with disability after being in a car accident at age 15. Transcript FAORO: All right to get started. Jeff how old is you and where are you from originally? LICHON: I am 33 years old and I am originally from Saginaw. FAORO: Okay so from around here. LICHON: Yes, I’m a local. FAORO: Now, what was it like growing up in Saginaw, and this area? LICHON: I personally, Michigan I think is the greatest place in the world. I love it. We got the if this is about diversity Michigan is a perfect example of that only in a different way, I think its we have the change of the seasons and we’ve got fresh water that you don’t have to worry about getting eaten by sharks. But honestly it was, its home. I mean I’m comfortable here and I think I’ll always come back here or relocate back here. if I move away or anything like that for a period of time or whatever. There is a lot out there to see but in the big little world, this is still home and I grew up with mom dad and an older sister. she did the normal sibling rivalry and everything and I always tried being the peacemaker and stuff in the family. FAORO: Was she much older than you? LICHON: Two and half years. FAORO: Okay so you guys were pretty close in age. LICHON: Yeah and we are very close still. She’s lives in Grand Rapids as a matter of fact, and has been there for close to 10 years. So yeah. FAORO: Have you ever lived anywhere else but this area or have you always lived kind of stuck around? Page 1 �LICHON: I’ve lived in right out of my undergrad I lived in the Metro Detroit area for a total of 5 years. Two different companies and then eventually I started at Dow in the rotational program and my second rotation was in Washington D.C and I spend 6 months out there. FAORO: Now what is a rotational program just out of curiosity? I don’t really know. LICHON: It’s a where I started at Dow, its kind of an entry level position I’m Public affairs its called Public Affairs Developmental Program and Mike’s dad hired me into Dow actually. So but at any rate you do typically you do three 4-6 month rotations. And each one is kind of you typically you stick with the one project area like my first one I worked on sustainability communications and when I was out in D.C I handled the Government Affairs Communication in PR and what not so and then I ended up actually coming out of rotation because a position became available and it was a good fit. FAORO: Now where did you go to school and what did you study? LICHON: My undergrad was at Central Michigan University and I double majored in logistics and marketing and a Journalism minor. I did two years at Delta College too actually. I got my associates in Business. It took me while, starting out I didn’t know what I wanted to do . FAORO: That’s pretty common. LICHON: Well yeah like anybody, what do you want to do the rest of your life? well okay, that’s easy… not its not. FAORO: You’re 19 choose now. LICHON: Exactly, no pressure so I started out in psychology and when my dad asked me what I wanted to do with that, I said that was a good question. I think teaching would be natural for me and somewhere down the road maybe I could retire I’ll teach or something. I have actually been a substitute teacher, taught for a little while in local high schools in Saginaw. and So then between my first and second years at Delta I went from within a two week period I changed my mind starting with Psychology to Pre-Med to Pre-Law to Business. So I got my associates in Business at CMU and did the Marketing Logistics, I knew I wanted to do something to take advantage of my creative side and what not, so Marketing was kind of an -natural fit. I joined the co-ed Business Fraternity there so I wanted to do something social but also help be a good rese builder too. FAORO: Right connections and working. LICHON: Exactly. So everybody in the business Fraternity, not everybody, but several people were doing this double major logistics and marketing and I was like what the heck is logistics? So I looked into it and it seemed like a growing field a lot of opportunity and what not and its funny I get to maybe a little bit about what I’m doing with Dow actually. I kind of came full circle with the logistics thing, it actually helped me further down the road and I wouldn’t even know about it back then. so at any rate, I ended up, the 5 years I spend in Detroit were in international logistics operations and like the first company was CH Robinson. If I’m getting too much detail or something stop me. Page 2 �FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: No! You’re good. LICHON: Okay, it was a little over two years with CH Robinson shipping Scott’s fertilizer via the ocean and airfreight around the world. by the container load, the big ocean containers in the large ocean vessels. and it was good experience but it was not I didn’t really see myself doing, and I didn’t feel it was a great use of my talent and all of that. so I left CH Robinson and got a job at Chrysler and was a contractor there with eagle global logistics. I was doing a similar thing only, Chrysler vehicles around air and ocean freight it was, it was, special operations. It wasn’t high vole, getting the production company. like thousands of cars around the world and stuff like that. But, there were cars used in commercials when the Jeep Commander came out with the little roller, frozen in a block of ice? That was actually filmed at the southern hemisphere proving ground in New Zealand; I shipped that vehicle there. FAORO: Wow LICHON: Yeah, so it was kind of cool. it was a step up from, it was kind of moving in the right direction. Its still not exactly what I wanted to do. I spent three years there. While I was there I got my MBA from Michigan State. I did the weekend MBA program and felt that that would help me, go that next level. FAORO: Get you where you wanted. LICHON: Exactly. And I would’ve come to find out that it did. I was able to; I interviewed with Dow and it. I was not only able to switch companies but to switch fields. because I wanted to get into circling back to my undergrad, the journalism minor that I got. I also, do some freelance outdoor travel and like disability writing and for various magazines. You just send inquiries in; my dad has also done on the side as a kind of hobby. And I always enjoy writing, and enjoy the outdoors, and traveling and what not, so it was a natural fit, and so I’m like I wanted that I could behind me to give me some more credibility for my writing. So I go the Journalism minor. I could come to find out that it helped me get into Dow. I didn’t have any communications experience per say, besides the minor, I have done some public speaking, to various groups nationally, local and what not, for my injury. so all of those things kind of came together and helped me, along with the MBA, to get into Dow, to change fields from logistics to communications, which are pretty, you can imagine, there are many difference between the two. FAORO: I’m really interested in the writing you do for the outdoors, and the public speaking you do. Can you elaborate on that a little? LICHON: Gosh when did that start? FAORO: Like how did you get into it, like the opportunities kind of thing? LICHON: I’ll start with the writing. That’s easier. As I mentioned my dad always did that on the side. we always used to go hunting together, pheasant hunting, duck hunting, go out on the Saginaw Bay and he did this boats and blinds column for Wild Flower Magazine. He did this for 15-17 years and wrote for other Magazines. So I said I wanted to do that. The contact, connections and I said hey I’m interested in writing, and I submitted an inquiry. My first article was in the Michigan Outdoors on how to preserve Page 3 �your game after you shoot a deer or a duck or something. If you want to get it mounted. So pretty basic, but helpful right. And I just started from there; it was easy for me because it’s like what do you like to do? And write about it. So so I just started from there. I did my own LLC access outdoors (Limited Liability Company). And what else? I have written for some national publications now. I’m still kind of in the name building thing because over the years I have had gaps where I haven’t consistently kept my name out there so I have written for regional reports for Great Lake Fishing and Hunting News, on the Saginaw Bay Region, I did that for about a year or so. what’s going on in fishing and hunting and stuff, and where the hot spots, things like that. It was interesting, and then I would find when I would go on a trip somewhere, it would line up different activities adventures and stuff like that because I’m an adventurous guy I like those things. Every year I would try to do an in state and out of state trip and do different things. I mentioned I’m going down to Florida tomorrow. I work on lining up a fishing trip for Goliath grouper. They can get up to 600 pounds. So something like that. I am also trying, disabled water skiing for my first time down there. A week from today I’ll be on some inland lake. Hopefully no alligators are out there and I’ll be water skiing. So that will be fun, I hope. Hopefully not to overly adventurous. FAORO: How do you do disabled water skiing? I just like… LICHON: I down hill ski too, so I’m guessing that the fall in the water isn’t as hard but. Your basically, I’ve seen different ones. I mean there are some that are narrower skis and they have a bucket seat on it and your legs are secured in, your feet are strapped in. VALLENTINE: Pulls you up? LICHON: It pulls you up. Yeah. VALLENTINE: So that’s essentially the same thing as snow skiing too, right? LICHON: Yeah. VALLENTINE: Cause I’ve seen that. LICHON: I love it. It’s a good time. So I’m trying to get back to what I was leading into here. Hum, so… so always try and do in state out of state trips. I find a couple things to do that are non-typical for someone with a disability and then write about it. And maybe open up people with other disability, whether it’s physical or mental, open up their perspectives and hopefully their options and actually get out and do the things they want to do. So, I went to the National Cherry Festival in Traverse City and Mackinaw Island. Okay, and you just write about different things and how easy it is to get around and things you can do. In Traverse City I went to, I went on the tall ship Manitou out in West Grand Traverse Bay and went Parasailing. So, I wrote about those and I tried getting up with the Blue Angels that year but it didn’t pan out. They take up members of the media every year, I can guarantee you, just about guarantee that I will have been the first person with a spinal cord injury to ride in a fighter jet. That would have been cool. That would’ve been good publicity for them, wouldn’t it? Page 4 �FAORO: Now when you write, do you find that like any people in the disabled community are like really inspired or have you heard from anyone about your writings or anything? LICHON: No. Well the thing is people, I mean sports and spokes and paraplegic news are sister publications from the paralyzed veterans of America and I’ve written for both of them. FAORO: Are you a Veteran? LICHON: No. I wish it was that honorable. No, car accident. And s I can talk about that too if you’d like? FAORO: Are you comfortable? LICHON: Yeah, absolutely. … losing track of what I was saying. RYTLEWSKI: You were talking about writing for the association… LICHON: Oh yeah. The PBA and stuff. So they’re a national publication so they have good reader ship and if it helps one person or 2 people, whatever, I think that’s making a difference there. But I always look to, for meaning in things I do. What’s going to make an impact on lives of people? Not just people with disabilities but anybody. FAORO: Open the eyes of people who aren’t disabled maybe… LICHON: Yea, yea. The perspective of people with disabilities now has changed a lot since, I mean there was a huge movement back in the 60s and 70s and following Vietnam. With people coming back with these injuries and from war and having these types of injuries. Whether its post-dramatic stress, spinal injuries, head injuries and stuff like that. There was a big movement because they were coming back and even though; the country was very anti-war and anti-veteran and treated everyone bad, it was probably that much worse for those who were coming back with these catastrophic injuries. These life changing things that could actually, probably do more good for society and helping facilitate better back in the normal word, sort of speak. But it didn’t. There were big fights through those years. early in the 90s we ended up getting the American Disabilities Act from President Bush. that has been a hug step and has really opened up opportunities and the ability of people with, probably in a lot more respect of physical disabilities than mental. To get out because more things are accessible. Well new buildings are instructed; they now have to incorporate burrier free design and things like that. All public buildings have to be accessible. Anytime an old building is modified in anyway it has to be retrofitted with accessible designs as well and things like that. So, coming back to the present I think that the awareness of people with a disability has increased significantly and just over the things that have been leading over the years but there is still a ways to go. I mean no one thinks of himself or herself of wanting to have a disability; I was thrown into it when I was fifteen. It was something that happened to me, I spent 15 years walking and all of a sudden… You are either born with one, you sustain one somewhere. As people age different things come up, whether it’s dementia or whatever. So, no one ever think of themselves as having a disability. There are a lot of challenges of raising the awareness and I think now with the war and Iraq, the technology we have today there is going to be more people surviving their injuries at war cause of technology and these soldiers are going to come back and they are going to Page 5 �want to work and live a normal life and so you are going to see a lot more people in society with different types of injuries and disabilities, mental or physical or whatever. So, that’s definitely going to, I mean that’s unfortunate that it happens, but it is what it is and I think it is definitely going to help increase that awareness level and you’ll see just more; I think what that ultimately leads to is people have a different perspective on life. They see things differently right? FAORO: Yeah. LICHON: So, case in point, myself. I played football, baseball, basketball, soccer, skied, track, everything. It was April 26 of 1994, which will be 18 years next month since my accident and I got home from baseball practice and instead of doing my homework, like I probably should have, I ended up walking over to my buddies house to play basketball with another buddy. It was a few blocks from my house and I got there and I remember playing horribly and I don’t know, it’s just something you remember. So, was playing horribly and I had just gotten the first Rage Against the Machine CD and I wanted to play it on my buddy’s stereo because he had these big speakers. These box speakers. I remember getting ready to leave and that was it. What happened beyond that was a kid in my class had just got his drivers license, we weren’t close friends but we were friends of friends. We didn’t hang out all the time. So, he had just gotten a new truck and my buddy and me were about to walk home. The kid said hop in the bed of the truck and ill give you a ride home. So, we’re 15 years old, so of course. We were invincible then. FAORO: Yea, free ride. LICHON: Yea why not. Might be cool, whatever. So, there were 3 guys in the cab so we hopped in the bed and when we took off, I laid down in the bed cause I didn’t want to get thrown out and so that’s what I was told. So, the driver was messing around, lost control and went up a curb. On the same street that the kid’s house was that we were playing basketball at. And he hit a tree going about 50 and the driver had a concussion, the kid in the middle seat had 15 stitches across his knees, the kid in the passenger seat had a few stitches across his lip. Had we hit on the passenger side instead of the driver side, the kid in the passenger seat would have been killed because the hood came up through the wind so far it would have sliced his head open. It was bad. When I first saw the truck post-injury it was surreal. I called it the eight wonder of the world cause I was amazed anyone survived it. So, my buddy was in the bed of the truck with me and ended up getting 2 stitches in his finger cause he was holding on when we hit. I had a broken back. Which your spine has your cervical, which is in your neck, Your thorax, which I think has 7 vertebrate there. So they measure it like C1,C2,C3. So you have 12 thoracic, which are all your, which is the bulk of your back, your spine. there are 12 of those. Then you got your lumbar, which is your lower back, your sacru, and your praxis. I broke 3 vertebrate, T5,T6,T7. Which is just chest level here. had I broke my spinal cord one or two higher I probably would have lost some function in my arms and hands and stuff. I am very fortunate for as severe as it was and that I didn’t get some sort of head injury from bouncing around the bed of the truck. excuse me. So I had a broken back, a bruised heart, collapsed lung, and 3 broken ribs. Short term memory loss for 2-3 days pretty mild fortunately. I guess it was good that I didn’t get a head injury, though I guess some of my friends would argue against that, sometimes I may have one. (Laughing) Joking, ok. so I spent 3 weeks in St. Marys Page 6 �Hospital in Saginaw. had surgery where they put titani rods in my back to stabilize the spine. they took a bone chip out of my hip and fused the 3 veribrate together. They pulled bone chips out of my spinal cord, which caused that and the swelling from the traa caused the injury. So basically your spinal cord is about the diameter of your pinky and if theres, think about the diameter of a internet cable or something like that, or wifi; how intricate is some of the cables if you just break one of those it breaks the signal so that’s how the nerves are going through, they are just so tight together and any type of damage or shifting of the spine, swelling, can cause permanent disability. And if ya just tweak it. I hope I am not making anyone quezy if you are gonna be eating after this or anything (Laughes) FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: (laughing) No we are alright LICHON: I spend three weeks, they fused 3 vertibrate together and pulled bone chips out of the spine. After that I went to grand rapids and spent 2 months in rehab for at Mary Free Bed by the hospital there, right on Wealthy St. FAORO: Oh I have seen stuff for that. LICHON: Kinda near the gaslight district? Or something? VALLENTINE: Something like that LICHON:I don’t think it’s a redlight district (Laughes) LICHON: Anyways, well I spent 2 months there and I had to relearn pretty much everything we take for granted. I had to relearn how to reach down and tie my shoes, I could not reach my feet right after my injury to put on shoes and socks, to get dressed, I had to relearn all that. But like I said, I had to relearn to transfer from the wheelchair to a real chair or a vehicle. Initially I was using what was called a sliding board. It’s just a very thin, solid board, about this long. That you slide under one hip then ya put it into the vehicle or onto the chair or something like that. I never thought I was never going to not have to depend on that just because it was that difficult to do. I had to relearn getting around the house, taking a shower, , bladder/ bowel considerations come into play. I mean everything was different. and so. After my, after I spent two months there, I came home, started my junior year in high school, no sports. Looked into getting back into hunting and fishing, because those we like my nber one passions. worked with my family and friends into getting back into doing the things I used to do as much as possible. yeah it was hard, it was an adjustment. Especially, as you can imagine for a 15 year old, it’s such a critical time in your life, in high school, in your development. Emotionally and all that. But I had awesome friends and family who were very supportive. I got right back that fall into hunting. there were some things I was kinda resistant to like, like I didn’t wanna be identified by my injury, by the disability or anything like that. I still wanted to be jeff FAORO: Right LICHON: ? And i think that was one personal battle that anyone who goes through anything like that would have. That you ultimately find out that you are only fighting yourself (laughs) and everyone still Page 7 �sees you for who you are in the end. but still it’s such a significant change. Going back to now, the idea that people with disabilities have a different perspective on life, because of a significant life challenge. I think. (bing noise) (laughing) RYTLEWSKI: Is it dying on me? (laughing) LICHON: See everyone has a different outlook on life and everything because of the challenges that you have gone through. So, that all ties into your work ethic, ties into your outlook on life. My motto is you only live once doesn’t mean that you have to be wild and reckless, it just means life’s short. It’s very short, I can’t believe I am 33 now; it’s hard to believe that 18 years have gone by since my accident, since that accident. But it’s just been an incredible 18 years. The opportunities I have had with people I have met, who knows where I would be today? Maybe the injury, I believe things happen for a reason. Maybe had the injury not happened, something would have happened where I would have died? You never know right? So I take every moment, I try to live in the moment. Do what it, what I feel is going to be a positive impact to people and doing the things also that I wanna do. Where when I get 50 60 years old whatever, and i look back and say man I wish I did that. I think regrets are hard for anybody. But now I think I have that perspective where people think about that and go, they think that they don’t like regrets and they think that they don’t wanna miss out on a opportunity in life. So I am actually going one step further and actually trying to do those things that I wanna do. traveling, and whatever down the road, getting married, having a family. Whatever is important to you, its personal to everybody. What they wanna do in life and stuff. So, my ultimate goal is to achieve greatness. (laughing) FAORO: I like it (laughing) LICHON: Yeahh RYTLEWSKI: You’re on your way there LICHON: Yeah! A long way there, I don’t ever think I’ll reach like dali llama status or anything like that (laughing) LICHON: Which is fine FAORO: Hey, don’t knock yourself down, you never know (laughing) FAORO: Dalli llama might be right here in midland Page 8 �LICHON: Yeah right! (laughing) LICHON: I’d rather be in the mountains (laughing) LICHON: So do you have any questions? FAORO: Maybe wrapping it back to Dow and now, with your disability are you involved in Dow in any way? RYTLEWSKI: DEN right? It’s called den? LICHON: Yeah right, RYTLEWSKI: Talk about that a little bit, my dad told me about it LICHON: Yes, ok so when I started at Dow I was in the rotational program, I had god what was the, trying to think of the timeline of everything cause it happened so quickly. Your dad gave me a lot of opportunity real fast. (Laughing). And so, yeah, DEN is the Disability Employ Network and I am the global chair no pun intended (Laughing). All right. OK. And Rob, Mike’s dad of course who hired me in, got me involved with the network, when I started. within like 2 or 3 months I was co-chair with Brenda Keeler, who at the time was the chair. And so then, that was with the understanding that eventually I would become chair. I was like ok, a year down the road or something, I’m at a new job and a new company. Nope, 2 months later I’m the chair. That opened up a lot of doors for me, but through that I’ve gone and spoke to, the, what was it? Allegiance of State Employees with disabilities, which is State of Michigan employees, that have disabilities. I have gone to national conferences for students with disabilities, I have had speaking opportunities, I’ve gotten to travel around a little bit and meet a lot of people, it was an awesome networking opportunity just for me for a personal standpoint. that wasn’t the only thing like, I a lot of people think, its kinda like the jeep syndrome, you drive a jeep everyone thinks everyone who has a jeep waves to everybody who has a jeep. OK, you’re in a wheelchair people think so and so, you work at Dow, do so and so? Well, there’s like 2 or 3 thousand people I’ve met with. You never know it’s a small town. So, people think because you have some sort of disability people think everything about every disability. Which is, isn’t further from the couldn’t be further from the truth. I was able to meet a lot of different people who have different disabilities, who who’s children have disabilities, or who know someone with a disability. And I have been able to go and speak to people with new disabilities injuries and stuff like that. Spinal injuries around the area, stuff like that. So it was a huge learning for me to be involved with them. I mean it opened up my eyes a lot ? I was able to I’m kind of a focal point for corporate center accessibility. So anytime, our facilities, is looking to put in automatic doors, or whatever I work with them. in doing that. Well I have to take in consideration for other disabilities, people who are blind, people who are deaf, things like that. So, again its my scope was just spinal cord injury, physical disabilities, using a wheelchair right. So that kind of helped me open up my perspective more and see a broader, aspect of disabilities I guess scope. Page 9 �Excuse me, and it was also and this is one of my favorite parts because, I like to give back to, people or anyone or anything that gives me an opportunity, so the opportunities I’ve had a Dow and with Den and with my career, with my growth and the people I’ve been able to work with, and meet through the company and through Den, have been awesome. And I naturally want to give back. So, by being visible around the company and having trying to fill the high profile and whatnot, I think opens up other people’s eyes, right . And helps them to learn, and maybe and however way in everyone is personal but a source of inspiration for them in some way. and everything whether I’m going on a business trip seeing what I do on a daily basis to get around and do the things I do, I think people have a greater appreciation for what they have. I hope so, ? because it’s a workout everyday, both physical and mental. And yeah I’m in pretty good shape (laughing) upper body ? (Laughing) So, you’re transcribing this right? FAORO: Yeah (laughing) LICHON: And but I mean getting up in the morning, is a lot more work than falling out of bed I could actually hurt myself. Falling in bed for you is probably just because your really tired or something, (Laughing) I have to really, I have to take care of myself that much more, to be able to go on to the things I want to do in life. so its it takes longer in the morning to get ready, somewhat. And especially like, however busy the last day or several days were, my upper body, I mean my arms are my legs ? Arms are not built to do the work that legs are built to do. So, if I’m going the halls in Dow are ridiculous in length. they have even though its not 70’s shag carpet, they have a carpet down through the halls and stuff, and that adds to the drag, I mean just little things like that make it a little more difficult to get around. But, I’ve conditioned myself to do that, but still, over the course of a day a busy day, your doing meeting after meeting, and your not only exercising yourself mentally your taxing from that perspective. But, you’ve got the physical aspect in there too. how many times a day I think man, I’m exhausted mentally or something you just had a busy day of classes, or its hot. You get tired right? Your ready to cash out, so being physically and mentally exhausted, when you get up in the morning the last thing you want to do is get up. Even though my mind isn’t mentally exhausted, my arms might and my shoulders and stuff. So, I still have to take care of myself, I mean, if I sprain a wrist, or tear a rotator cuff or something like that. I mean that will have a massive effect on my ability to do things, ? Just I go to physical therapy still, 18 years later I’m going twice a week, as a maintenance program, because of my injury I get muscle spasms. If I have a stressful day my legs are going to be like super tight, I’m always trying to stretch them out and move them around, and stay active just to keep them limber, things like that. So, I’m going to physical therapy, weekly massage which I always feel kind of snooty saying that but it’s important because it helps the skin integrity because you can get skin break down with spinal cord injury because your sitting down all the time, ? That’s another consideration I’ve taken account, if I get a pressure sore, where your sit bones are, because I have muscle atrophy your not using your legs like you used to. I mean just think if you stopped working out, or having your hockey practice and things like that, your probably not going to be in serious shape, if you not using them. LICHON: So at any rate, there’s a lot of different considerations, that I have to take into account, and but, where I tie this all back to, or I always try to tie this my injury my disability back to is that, every Page 10 �single person people with disabilities don’t want to be seen as, as different as being identified by their disability. FAORO: Like you said you don’t want to be defined by it. LICHON: Right, right, yeah, and so how I tie it back I say that everybody is the same well (laugh) there not, ok. I mean you two are as different from each other as you two are everybody does things in their own way. so, no people don’t want to say ok, your disabled, they don’t want to hear that. Or that you have a disability or anything, so so, we want to identify that we have an injury. I don’t think of myself as having a disability, I do things differently because I have to, because I have what I call an injury, right. It’s classified as a disability right? so is I think addiction to coffee or something, I don’t know, some weird things like, in the American medical association. So, people may be born with, who end up being like multiple sclerosis or muscular dystrophy or things like that, that’s a genetic thing, and fortunately with spinal cord injury, its not debilitating like some of those conditions or what not. its with spinal cord injuries its like something you acquire throughout the course of you life, so I identify it as my injury, I know its classified as a disability, and I’m not saying that people can’t say it’s a disability or anything like that, because it doesn’t bother me right. And so, when people ask like “Well aren’t you mad?” or “Aren’t people with disabilities mad, angry at life and this and that?” I’m like “Alright buddy,” people think that, they think they were dealt an unfair hand in life. I say it was such a po, I mean, if I had the choice being on my feet or not, yeah I’d be walking, just the opportunities I’ve been given, and the people I’ve met that I’ve mentioned have been just so incredible over the past 18 years. How can you say its been disabled? So, when people say are you mad, or aren’t people with disabilities angry at life, if you were an angry person before an injury or disability than you will probably be the same after. You are who you are right? And, yeah I’ve had my challenges of trying to figure out, especially when all of my friends were going away to college I was going to Delta. I had a challenging time of trying to figure out like “Man this Is kind of scary now, its getting real,” Your so busy in high school and everything that its you don’t really pay attention, I mean you just always go, go, go. And then when things maybe start to slow down, and you have to kind of choose a direction, what’s that direction you want to choose? I didn’t like the alternatives not going forward, and people are like, “Have you ever thought, considered a thought of committing suicide?” No, frankly it scares me, so no, I’m like, “That’s not in me,” what I mean? and so, the people who think that or, or, think its OK to go go shoot up a school, you see it in many different aspects of life not just disabilities, people’s attitudes are, I know this might sound cliché, but peoples attitudes are the biggest disabilities ? What people choose to do with their life is their choice, people don’t take enough accountability for themselves, responsibility for themselves, and its your own fault if you don’t make of yourself what you want to do in life. With me, I have this opportunity in my injury to get out and make something of it, and to go, achieve greatness (laughing). I mean kind of tongue and cheek, but there is a lot of seriousness to that ? And so, again it goes back to when I, when I get old and grey, or older and grey, then I don’t want to look back and say “ man I wish I did that, or gosh I’m ticked I didn’t do that, or make something of myself,” because its fun being here (laughing) ? And having life we don’t know what comes after. But, your still why not have fun while you’re here and take the most to seize every opportunity that you can, and and when you get to the end of say, “alright I did my best.” Page 11 �FAORO: I have a question more about like, now I know you said about your physical rehabilitation and your very obviously comfortable, but was it always that way? Or was there like a mental rehabilitation you kind of had to go through first? Like to get comfortable and get acceptance? LICHON: Yeah, absolutely, the same magazines that I said I wrote for, “paraplegic news and spokes in sports” I didn’t want anything to do with them when I got home from rehab in Grand Rapids, I thought they were the same thing I didn’t want to identify with, and now I end up writing for them and I have subscriptions to them for years. FAORO: Do you think it had to do with maturity to? as you got older, or just kind of you were young and it was just kind of a different mindset then. LICHON: Sure, yeah absolutely, yeah your 15 years old how mature are you really? We think we are but its just like so and I’ve always, I guess been told that I have a higher maturity level which I guess is maybe contributed to handling it the way I did when I was at Mary Freebed in Grand Rapids I had to see a social worker like starting out for a few weeks once or a couple of times. And she said to me, “Don’t you think that your taking this a little too well?” And that was the last appointment I had with her, because it ticked me off that she would ask such a thing, I’m like, “How could you take this too well?” There’s a difference between being what’s the word? like between oblivious to something or ignorance is one thing, I mean you could, ignorance you could learn and correct that. but denial I think is another thing, and I wasn’t denying because in the story I tell people and I’ll get to my struggle here in a minute but the story I tell people that I’ve kind of kept as my attitude throughout is that the next morning following my accident I woke up, tubes coming out of me everywhere, monitors up keeping track of my heartbeat, my mom and my dad and a nurse. And I’ve just gotten contact lenses and was having a heck of a time getting used to them and putting them in and everything. So, I woke up and there were like a lot of friends out in the lobby and my sister was out there and stuff. But there was just the 4 of us in the room and I started looking around and I felt that I could see clearly and I’m like looking at the monitors and like “this is kind of weird ” I was conscious throughout the entire night but I don’t remember it, they did all sorts of tests throughout the night to figure out what happened and stuff. but, so I knew what had happened, I kind of knew, OK, this sucks or something pretty serious had happened. That’s about all I needed to know at that particular point. To figure out that some things are going to have to start to change. So I’m looking around and its clear and I’m like, I’m looking at everybody my mom and dad, I just woke up and there just like, “Oh hey Jeff,” and I’m like, “Hey, are my contacts still in?” And they all just looked at each other like I was nuts. Whats this kid worrying about his contacts for? (Laughing) FAORO: My contacts (Laughing) LICHON: Yeah, because that, at 15 those are some of the things your, your worried about I guess right? so I always say to people, “My first thought was OK, what’s next? Life goes on and what’s next, what do I have to do here? There’s still things that I have to worry about besides figuring out what the next step is.” I didn’t know what would come next, I didn’t know I would have to start learning again how to get into a car and get dressed, and shower and all that stuff, but I guess I was going to find out . But at any Page 12 �rate, I mentioned earlier that at out of high school some of my friends stuck around and also went to Delta or FSU and some of my friends went away, and then after like the first year some of my other friends went away and I started figuring out I was going to have to make some choices . Be a big boy, get grown up and determine what the next however many years of my life were going to be. Or even the next day sort of thing. So, started kind of freaking me out, I’m like, “I’m not quite feeling myself here,” it’s a little scary I mean that’s intimidating for anybody to figure out what they want do, let alone someone at 15, 16, 17 or 18 who just has an injury like I had or some sort of disclosure. So, at that point I’m like, “OK I think I need to start maybe talking to somebody, and sorting through these things,” so I started going to counseling for, I don’t know a year and a half maybe, it started out once or twice a week or so, and basically all that amounted to or people say, “ Oh your seeing a shrink,” Ok that’s there perspective or attitude. But the thing was I needed to figure things out, and what that allowed me to do was to unravel what I had wound myself up into, through my 15, 16 years of life, and actually disconnect myself from qualities that I felt were not gonna be beneficial to me not just from a personal perspective but from my injury perspective, what I mean? so, I mean there were a lot of things I found like the more negative I am the more tone I get in my legs the more stress I feel, and the more toll it takes and so the more I can figure out how to work around those moments or situations the better off I’m going to be in the long run. The more longevity I’ll be able to have because I think, a small part of me I think I have a self destructive personality in some (laughing), I like to have fun and party, get a little wild skiing or whatever stuff like that. Well but, at the same time your those things are going to be that much more detrimental to me if I were to get injured like I mentioned earlier, like if I injured my arms or my shoulder or whatever. And so, same thing mentally is that I had to kind of deconstruct myself a bit and not only did I relearn physical things like getting dressed and showering etc. but I also started to have to relearn myself, and why do I behave certain ways? maybe I’m upset or angry about my parents being divorced when I was in the 8th grade ? Well, OK, let go of that. Or maybe I’m angry because my friend didn’t let me sit shotgun (Laughing). Honestly, we store so much of that in our selves that we don’t even realize and I mean I literally no, I guess its not literally, but I pick myself apart to figure out what was going to be in my best interest to be as a person going forward, and so that was one of the most helpful and transformational periods in my life . I didn’t like start going to the top of the hill screaming hallelujah or anything like that or become like, I was born and raised Catholic and stuff I have very deep values and faith and what not and definitely there’s the aspect I feel that God helped me through a lot of the stuff but it wasn’t that fanatical. FAORO: You didn’t like see the light; you kind of had to way your way through it. LICHON: Yeah, I think we all have to help ourselves here and still like I mentioned have that accountability and responsibility for yourself, and I just wish that a lot more people could go through, go through that who maybe were heading or are heading in a direction that they may not want to see themselves going things like that, so yeah so it was definitely that was the most challenging mentally, but it was the best I think thing for me to go through because I was able to, it was like a rebirth in a lot of ways, and yeah so now as they say “the rest is history,” I mean I still now have, I mean I’m still the same person I was then, I just like I said I changed a lot of things about the way I act, react or how I Page 13 �respond to things or different situations and stuff like that. Which, I still get ticked off if I have a hard day at work (Laughing). FAORO: Yeah, like anyone. LICHON: Yeah my boss is so, getting on my case and stuff (Laughing). Sorry Eli (Laughing), no I challenge back (Laughing) but I choose my battles more now than I probably would have what I mean? So, yeah, I think a lot of where I am now is just kind of a testament to that period that I went through ? so, RYTLEWSKI: It really seems like with this injury it really hasn’t limited you at all, I mean not at all, I mean you still do things, your kind of like proving to people that look you has a disability. LICHON: I do things the way I have to do them, which are different from the way Mike does them, or you do them, or you do them, I mean I play hockey sled hockey. RYTLEWSKI: I want to play that sometime. LICHON: Dude, you have to come out its awesome, I’m trying to get a team together. RYTLEWSKI: I gotta do it sometime, you told me about it. LICHON: Yeah, they have a sled there so, I have my own hockey sled I have my own hand cycle, so I still go biking, I’m working on getting my own down hill sit ski for snow, and like I mentioned I’m going water skiing in a week, in a week from today because I want to get my own water ski, so I’ll have my own equipment so that when I go up with friends I don’t have to depend on an adaptive sports association, which is who I learned to ski with Michigan Adaptive Sports, I won’t have to depend on the weekends and the places that they go, I can go with friends now, skiing places, I can go water skiing when my friends get boats (Laughing). Or when I get one but things like that and I guess the hunting and fishing thing there’s still like my nber one passion there, and with hunting its water, and that’s kind of the hardest thing to do your going out in the marsh, your going out in a cut corn field, or your taking boats with lots of equipment, your setting decoys you’ve got your retriever with you, not your buddy your dog (Laughing) and things like that so I mean your pulling the canoe off your truck or off your trailer. I had a jet ski and I managed that completely by myself independently while I had it. loved it (Laughing) I miss it so much! I want it back (Laughing) and things like that so but I think when I get a house I’ll be able to get everything set up. Right now I have a condo, and its difficult like I want a dog so bad, we grew up with female black labs and that’s exactly what I’m going to get, but I’m not going to get it at a condo. Why did I get a condo? Well I came back from D.C. and I was starting a new position, I wanted I’ve been renting for ten and I wanted to not have to worry about exterior and keeping up with the lawn and stuff because I’m pretty meticulous like, I guess I’m anal about that stuff ? Its like, so I didn’t want to necessarily want to focus on that stuff, I had enough challenges but I want to get a house eventually. get my female black lab and then I’ll start acculating more stuff and all my hunting and fishing trust me I’ve thought through a lot of it already too. I need a pulley system to store boats up canoes and stuff like that up in the ceiling of the pull barn or in the garage, tie it to the wall and lower it down things like that. So, I’ve thought through a lot and now a lot more equipment is Page 14 �coming like I want to get an Argo, which is a six or eight wheel all-terrain but they are completely hand controlled. The thing is though the one I’m looking at is like $23,000 (Laughing) outfitted. RYTLEWSKI: Oh boy. LICHON: But, somewhere down the road but then like a lot more equipment like lawn mowers, riding lawn mowers are hand controlled now. I cut my dads grass with his Exmark, hop on that and go buzz around. It’s a feeling of freedom still being on a four-wheeler; I’ve had that since ‘97. I keep it up at my dads because he has a pull barn and lives out on the base so I can go out riding around there and stuff. But, I’ll have to figure all of that out myself eventually. (Ring) FAORO: Well we hit the hour mark at least. LICHON: So who do you have to turn this into now? RYTLEWSKI: Well we have to type it up and give it to our teacher. LICHON: Good luck with that, I was all over the place. FAORO: We do 20 minutes each, so we will break it up. RYTLEWSKI: We get to talk about you to the entire class. FAORO: Yeah LICHON: Sweet FAORO: Well we will be nice LICHON: Should I come in at the end with like a superman cape on or something (Laughing) Your gonna blow me up that big or something or Dahli Llama outfit or something (Laughing). RYTLEWSKI: You hungry? VALLENTINE: Some food LICHON: You want to eat, grab some grub, yeah I mean anymore questions or anything that comes up just I’ll give you my cell if you need to clarify or something. FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: Thank you for doing all of this LICHON: No problem RYTLEWSKI: I’m going to come play hockey with you sometime, all right? LICHON: Yeah, there you go. END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/61583fa63500093ada3dbcd8f2d47c3a.mp3 a0f7107fd8c92cd698c24a5631501254 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Lichon_Jeff Title A name given to the resource Jeff Lichon audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lichon, Jeff Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Faoro, Grace Holtrop, Cody Rytlewski, Eli Vallentine, Michael Description An account of the resource Jeff Lichon was born and raised in West Michigan. He discusses his struggles with disability after being in a car accident at age 15. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History People with disabilities--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-03 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/563c4b04a27394be1f977baf81163178.pdf 1075825fe6b17e1be43d5a4bd40be3f7 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Cynthia Mader Interviewers: Kailey Rosema, Stephen Pratt and Erica Immekus Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/13/2012 Runtime: 00:49:36 Biography and Description Cynthia Mader is an outstanding woman who is an advocate for the advancement of civil rights for the LGBTQ community in the West Michigan area, as well as a professor in Grand Valley State University‟s College of Education. Recently, Cynthia was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Women's Commission, March 13th, 2012. Cynthia‟s involvement for social justice led her to be the First Board of Directors within the Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated, in which she organized Grand Rapids‟ first pride celebration, and fought with local public administration offices for the passing of laws that banned sexual orientation discrimination Transcript Kailey Rosema: Okay my name is Kailey Rosema and I‟m here with Erica Immekus and Stephen Pratt. We are interviewing Cynthia Mader downtown Grand Rapids at Grand Valley‟s Pew campus in the Eberhard building. It is Tuesday, March 15, 2012 at 11:30 A.M. So Cynthia if you don‟t mind starting off maybe telling us a little bit about your family, your background, childhood, growing up life... Cynthia Mader: It was pretty ordinary, umm nothing, nothing out of the ordinary. Umm I was raised on the other side of the state. I was born in 1942, umm so I‟m nearing retirement here at Grand Valley. So as I said, I was born on the other side of the state in Bay City, Michigan. Small family, mother, father, one sister. Umm, Catholic family. I went to Catholic schools, Catholic grade school, Catholic high school. And then I went to Aquinas College here in town, I moved to Grand Rapids, which of course is a Catholic College. And then, for 23 years I taught in a Catholic high school here in town, Catholic Central and West Catholic. So umm, as far as childhood, it was I‟m sure as ordinary and, umm, there was nothing uncommon about it. My parents were married, stayed married. They were middle class, maybe a little bit more comfortable than just middle class, but certainly not wealthy. I had good friends, got along in school. I wish I could tell you some horror stories and I don‟t have a single one to Page 1 �tell you! So, I don‟t know, are there other things that you would like to know about childhood and growing up? I did all the things that kids do. You know, and in high school, student council and all those Girl Scout kinds of things. Umm, I dated, the usual. KR: When you moved to Western Michigan, was that specifically for school? CM: Yes, that‟s what brought me here, was Aquinas College. And I never moved out again, I mean I never moved back to my hometown. I did go back there a lot, but I‟ve lived in Grand Rapids ever since. I love Grand Rapids, I think it‟s just a perfect town, perfect town for me anyway. Umm, but yes, I‟ve lived here all my life, and worked here all my life in the Grand Rapids area, but that‟s what brought me here. KR: Okay, good. Umm, so can you tell us a little bit about your education? CM: My education... Well, I‟ve had the good luck of being able to go to school a lot, I like to go to school. And I‟ve been able to because I‟m single, have been single. No family, no children. I don‟t know how people do it. I really don‟t know how, especially women, I don‟t know they do it, when they‟re working and have a family and try to get advanced degrees. But at any rate, I got my undergrad degree from Aquinas in English and education, and French and social studies too. Although I‟m certified to teach those, but it would be just a travesty if I ever tried to teach French! That was my undergrad. After that, again as I said I had the time and interest, I went on and earned three Masters degrees after that. A Masters in English, a Masters in library science, and a Masters in counseling. All of which helped with a teaching certificate because you can do all of those things in schools. And then, umm, I was teaching high school at the time during all of that, and then I began my PhD and finished that in 1994 I think it was. I had already come to Grand Valley to work by that time, but right around that time I finished that degree and I haven‟t stepped foot into a classroom as a student since then. Stephen Pratt: So was all of your college classes, Undergrad and Graduate, all at Aquinas? CM: No, umm, no, the undergrad was all there. Graduate was at Michigan State and U of M. SP: So you did bump around from Grand Rapids a little bit. CM: Oh yeah, yeah. And if I weren‟t working full time I probably would have gone further afield, but its pretty hard to do that and work full time. And for some reason it never occurred to me to take off time, you know as many many people do now, just go to the school that you want to go to and get a graduate assistantship and go full time, but that never occurred to me. I was always on a commuter basis. KR: Alright, so how did you start becoming involved in the LGBTQ community? CM: Well, I was relatively old before I became involved in the community. I always knew I was gay, I mean, as early as anyone knows anything like that. And I certainly had individual relationships during my adult life. Very stable, very good relationships. But I wasn‟t involved Page 2 �in the community at all. Teaching in a Catholic school, [CM chuckles] kind of, well, militates against that. You just don‟t. So it wasn‟t until I left K-12 teaching and went into higher ed that I had began to be involved in the gay community in town, and began to realize what a huge community it is. I think most people would be surprised how many men and women there are and how many close friendships and groups and activities... and well close friendships I guess is really...and long standing relationships. So at any rate, I became involved during a time when, lets see, it would have been... hmm, the 80‟s or early 90‟s, when the gay movement, it was a movement by then. It had not been a movement, there was just people, individual people. But by then it was becoming a rights of a gay movement for civil rights. And I happened to become involved around the time, of I don‟t know if you‟re aware of the Gay March on Washington? SP, KR, & EI: Yes [All nod and answer in agreement] CM: Are you? Okay good for you. Yes, so it was right...well you tell me the year, „87 perhaps? I can‟t remember. But that was exactly the time when I became involved. I was not on the march or anything, but people came back to this area absolutely fired up, having been on that march. And decided „Hey, we can put something together in this community!‟ Something that is formalized, something that is visible, something that is political and social, but something that gives a face to the community because there had been nothing of course as I said, just individual people. And so, at that point, many people joined together, coalesced around two men who had recently moved here from San Diego and were much more involved and politically savvy [CM laughs] than we were in Grand Rapids. But they were kind of the center of this. And from that grew the, umm, Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated. I don‟t know if you‟re aware of that organization. Most organizations like that, that are small and grassroots, they just don‟t last; I think two or three years is the average life, but that is still going strong, about 20 years I think it‟s been in Grand Rapids. It serves as kind of an umbrella organization, and a political organization, a political wing to meet with politicians, to meet with city officials, with schools, and just all sorts of things- It‟s an outreach kind of organization. So that‟s when I became involved and that‟s how I became involved. I was on the first Board of Directors for the first couple years- the first couple of terms I guess for about six years or so. I have not been as involved in it, aside from being a member since that time, but it is flourishing, it‟s very very active. It met with a lot of resistance at first, umm, as you can imagine Grand Rapids in 1989 or whatever that was, 1990 was not particularly hospitable to any organization like that- let alone one that had a building, had a face, had people out interviewing with the news and things like that. So that‟s the involvement. From that point on, I became less directly involved with that, and more personally involved with friends- large large groups of friends. And probably more politically involved with women‟s issues, which is often the course I think that women in the movement take. For some reason, who knows why, it seems to happen that in these local movements, umm, they tend to be gender balanced at the beginning, but then I don‟t know whether the women kind of drop out, or the men step in [CM laughs]. I‟m not sure what it is, but they tend to be pretty male, I Page 3 �don‟t want to say dominated because that‟s kind of a negative connotation, but male-led after that. Umm, I think it‟s probably because women are maybe more interested in women‟s issues: Family care, child care, things that the YWCA would be doing, rather than the gay movement. I think that men are more tuned, boy talk about stereotypes [Subtle laughter from everyone], men are more tuned to political edge. And certainly women want rights too, I‟m not in any way denying that. But I think I‟m a little far off topic too [Everyone laughs]. So that‟s how I got involved. KR: Okay, when you were, umm you said you were the First Chair of Directors. What kind of stuff did you do for the... CM: For the network? KR: Yeah. CM: Oh yeah, First Board of Directors. Oh my Lord, well first of all just to get an outfit like that up and running is just an enormous volunteer task. We worked night and day, night and day to, you know, I mean it‟s just stuff like bylaws, mission statements, vision statements- All of which is kind of peripheral, but the first main activity was the pride celebration. Now it‟s an annual celebration in June downtown. I think now it‟s around the Ford Museum, I think, although it might be elsewhere. I haven‟t gone in a while. But to have a pride celebration in Grand Rapids, a gay pride celebration in Grand Rapids at that time, Oh my Lord, umm gay people were being shot at ya know, for organizing and being visible. That of course didn‟t happen, it was down at the Calder. Music, crafts, food, it was truly a celebration. And people kind of, [CM pauses], it was a real risk. You thought you were taking a risk to go down there. And it turned out to be very calm, entertaining. There were a lot of protesters around, but they didn‟t bother the group too much. It was, [CM pauses], It‟s almost like a test of whether those fears were accurate or not. And they were accurate, people were getting killed elsewhere, but I think in the gay community a lot of people didn‟t want to be visible because they were afraid of being discriminated against, losing their job, losing their family, whatever. So it kind of became an inner test of “Is anything bad really going to happen?”. And for the most part, no! For the most part it was a nice news story. And it has continued on ever since, that particular celebration. That was the first visible event that the network decided to do. Beyond that, oh gosh, we did a lot of organizing around a city ordinance with sexual orientation as a protected class. And that took several years with a lot of debate in the newspapers everywhere. A lot of debate, a lot of talking to city officials, umm, it just went on and on and on. And finally the city commission did indeed put in the sexual orientation ordinance that says it‟s illegal in Grand Rapids to discriminate in housing and employment, so that was a huge step. Beyond that it was ongoing activities. Umm, service projects, speaker groups, education, you name it, the network was there, and still is. Page 4 �SP: Was there any point where there was just a large amount of protesters or a large push back towards the gay community? CM: Over the ordinance there was. Yes a lot of businesses got together sending out, well you could call it hate literature if you wanted to, so there was that. But by the time the network began, the worst had happened in Grand Rapids. Again, it‟s hard to say the worst had happened because it was such an invisible group. Prior to that nobody came out, it was just, I mean you simply didn‟t. There were a few gay bars, and I, I was just kind of at the edge of that, in the sense of I was too young to have been in that particular era, but I certainly know many people who talk about raids on the gay bars, and fear and arrests and things like that. As I say I was a little too young and just missed that period. By the time I got involved, the sixties had happened, the black civil rights movement was well underway, the women‟s movement was well underway, so there was a little bit more awareness. So I can‟t say that there was ever violence by any means, there was a lot of hatred though, at the visibility. And of course, ya know, West Michigan is a very nice area, and the feeling in West Michigan has always been: “I don‟t care what you do, I just don‟t want to see it, I don‟t want to see it”. Well, that‟s not the best message to send a human being [CM chuckles]. So anyway... SP: What did, uhh, what did your family and friends think and what did, uhh.. were you still Catholic at this point? CM: ..mhmm.. Still am, uh huh. In kind of a cultural sense… SP: So what kind of feedback did you get back from… CM: ... None from my family. I never spoke about it to them…[SP says an understanding “no”] never spoke it about it to them… Um, I lived 150 miles away so it was easy not to talk about it. Um, they would visit here, and, you know, for a week and a half you can… you can live any way you want and not have your friends around or anything like that. Um, my friends by then… friends were friends… there was… [CM stutters while thinking of what to say] I‟ve never had a bad experience. I really have to say that. And I wish I could give you something juicy for your, for your tape here [group laughter] but I‟ve personally never had a bad experience. Maybe I‟ve protected myself, I don‟t know, maybe I‟ve isolated myself and not put myself out there, I don‟t think that‟s the case though. I think I‟ve had extraordinarily good friends and extraordinarily um, oh, well informed friends. So for me, that hasn‟t been much of an issue, however, there‟s something, I…I… I can‟t quite explain it and you‟re young enough so you might not get this but there‟s something just weird about saying I am gay, because all it talks about is who you fall in love with, that‟s all it talks about. And yet it becomes for some people, such an identifying trait and, you know that, “that‟s my gay friend” [CM laughs] um, rather than that‟s my friend. So, its, its just, it was a weird feeling all of that time and still is to a certain extent. I, um, I happen to teach grad classes that have a lot to do with social justice issues just like your U.S. diversity. And when we get to um, sexuality, I articulate the fact that I‟m a lesbian. [CM chuckles] It‟s kind of interesting, over the years, because I‟ve taught the class a long time, over the years, the Page 5 �reaction is different. It‟s much calmer, there‟s not, “Oh my God!”, you know, which it used to be. Um, people are much less, you know on the discussion board, much less vitriolic and I uh… gay people… [CM mocks former anti-gays views on keeping their sexuality out of the public‟s eye] “I don‟t care what they do, just keep it out of my face.” There‟s much, much less of that. So, um, the times have changed, really, times have moved forward. It‟s not there yet by any means, I don‟t know if it ever will be, but, but it‟s improving. KR: Um, when you were growing up, was there anything that further influenced you or your involvement or your identity like people, articles, news? CM: It was so oblivious. I mean I knew I wasn‟t experiencing the same things my friends were. I knew I wasn‟t falling in love with that boy in geometry [CM chuckles]. But, that was about as close as I came to, to realizing anything. I don‟t think it was until, I don‟t know, maybe late college, early… excuse me, late high school, early college, that I even put a name to what that difference was. All I knew was that, I knew enough not to talk about it. I guess I knew something, didn‟t I? I knew enough not to talk about it. Um, but mostly I just knew that I was not experiencing the same feelings that they were experiencing and talking about. And so, as far as influences, that too is hard to say. Um, there was nothing… the subject was never spoken of. Neither plus nor minus in my hometown which was a small hometown, catholic school, um, so it wasn‟t spoken about… I knew, I knew something was wrong, I thought I‟d outgrow it [CM chuckles]. Uh, so I can‟t name in influence at all. I can name good influences on, on, on the way that I grew to think about things. And the fact that I‟ve never really experienced that so called catholic guilt. I think my catholic upbringing was a little bit different then many people. It was quite enlightened, it was quite forward thinking, and so I… I kind of experienced social discomfort. Worrying about what people would think, but I never experienced that guilt, that religious guilt. So… and then beyond that, college… of course, after… by that time you know, you start to read, you start to talk, you start to inform yourself, and so yeah, those were influences on me. But, beyond that, I don‟t think… I just read widely and have followed the movement for, even before it was a movement and evolved with it. And, um… that‟s, that‟s it as far as influences. My own reading has been the biggest influence… and then um… But not growing up, there, I can‟t say one way or another at all. [CM shakes her head in disbelief of having any influences] KR: When you were working in the network, was there anyone, or anything, or an event that empowered you to become more involved or take more actions? CM: I think it was the whole series of events of just being out there. Because what it does is it tells you, nothing‟s going to happen. [Cynthia chuckles due to her ironic realization]. And not only does nothing happen, it, I think the biggest thing that happens internally. Because to go through, you know I look back to when I was teaching high school 23 years, 23 years of not being, of not identifying, not articulating who I really was, not talking about any of my outside work friends or anything like that; I think it sends a terrible message to yourself that there‟s Page 6 �something about you that can‟t be spoken about, that can see the light of day. So my involvement with the network and with that growing community of friends [Stephen Pratt coughs] allowed me to, to just abandon that way of life, I never, never ever repeat that again. KR: Um, let‟s see. Was there um, before you became involved you said there wasn‟t much, um, going on for civil rights… [in the LGBTQ community] CM: Not in the LGBT community, right, yeah. Definitely the, uh, the black community and I was very involved with that. And if you want an influence, probably that was, the whole civil rights, black civil rights movement influenced me deeply and, and made me realize, um, the political possibilities, um, how, how you could make change, how things have happened, how, how sometimes power is so subtle that people don‟t even realize that they‟re being subordinated, all of those things. The civil rights movement had a huge influence on me. The women‟s movement after that had a big influence on me also. In many ways, in many ways they‟re parallel, in many ways they‟re not, but in many ways they‟re parallel. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] SP: So between the two movements, there was, you had, did you have a lot of involvement in both at the time? CM: Yes I did, yes I did. It gave me a way of thinking. So that, but even then, you know, I thought well, but, but being gay is different; that‟s not, that‟s not civil, that‟s not African American, that‟s not women‟s movement, that‟s something different that‟s off to the side, don‟t, there‟s nothing to be involved there because that‟s quiet, silent, invisible. But it began to give me a way of thinking, mhmm, it allowed me then to pursue that. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] KR: How are you involved in the African American communities, like you were saying? CM: Yeah, well, bear in mind that that didn‟t really flourish until, well, it flourished, but it didn‟t come to the general public‟s attention until in the late fifties and sixties. At that time I was in college and I was at Aquinas [college] and Aquinas [college] is a very, very, um, good institution when it comes to social justice issues. So, uh, we marched, we sang, we licked envelopes, we did all sorts of things in that, uh, in that period of time. And then, after that I was teaching high school and so there were involvements there also, with, you know, African American student groups and, and, oh gosh, there were workshops, there was, oh it was the Vietnam war. I mean you talk about a time that was exciting, and, and just “wow” something going on all the time regarding civil rights. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] KR: Um, going back to your work in the LGBTQ community, [CM says “mhmm”] um, did you ever do any work outside of Grand Rapids at all? CM: No. Um, I don‟t know if you‟d like to get into this, but Grand Valley, would you like to talk about work at Grand Valley? Page 7 �KR: Yeah. SP: Of course. CM: Okay, um [CM clears her throat], well, hmm hmm. When I came to Grand Valley… I knew a lot of people here already because I lived in the area so I already had a lot of gay and lesbian friends here at Grand Valley already. But, again, a very invisible community, very invisible. And, and now, things like domestic partner benefits are a given. Things like um, protection, sexual orientation, and the affirmative action and equal protection clause, absolutely a given. But at that time, I don‟t think anyone breathed the word, um, it was just circles of friends, obviously. But as far as the university, there was nothing. And you may be familiar with some of the climate studies that have been done here at Grand Valley. I don‟t know that within your time here but about every, I don‟t know, every five to ten years, Grand Valley has done a, a so called climate study. Mostly to kind of gauge the temperature on women‟s issues and, uh, race issues and things like that. Well the first one was done shortly after I was here. And through that study, it became obvious that there was a fair population of, of gay and lesbian people, staff and faculty, who were not particularly, who didn‟t really feel like the, the… [CM chuckles] Grand Valley family, that, that we all talk about, you know, we really kind of felt second class. Because there were no benefits, none of that for families and things like that. So, as many of these things happen, it happened with a few people. I and… I‟m not going to name names because, just because, um, I don‟t know if they‟re interested in being online with this. But I and about four other women started to approach the president, uh, President Lubbers at that time. And bless his heart, President Lubbers is a good man but I think he was… pardon me President Lubbers if you listen to this [EI chuckles] but I think he was a little bit clueless uh, that there were even people on his campus… [CM laughs] And, and I think he wanted to do the right thing but of course, politically, it would be very, very difficult for him to back any kind of gay/ lesbian stuff in this town. Not with the donors that donated to Grand Valley which were very, very conservative group. And so, he encouraged us, but, I can‟t say it was out-front. We then began to expand into a more formal organization which has now become the Faculty Staff Association of Gay and Lesbian faculty and staff and we started to get together and talk about can we do as a group, not anymore as individuals, but what can we do as a group. One of the things we wanted, because every other institution had it, is domestic partner benefits. I don‟t know if you‟re aware, aware of what domestic partner benefits are just as in, um, um, straight couples. The spouse or partner, spouse, um, can get health benefits and all the other health benefits that the university affords. Um, we of course couldn‟t. And so we really began lobbying for that. We started talking to board members, we started talking to the various organizations on campus; the faculty senate, the AP association, um, women‟s commission. Every possible, conceivable organization and got their backing. And finally, after about two years of talking and saying “here we are, we‟re decent people, ya know, we‟re okay” uh, and there are about fifty of us, finally President Lubbers decided he that would back it, he would back the request for domestic partner benefits. The only thing is he wanted it to be kept fairly quiet so that the newspapers didn‟t jump on it before it was done and just ruin the whole thing. So he was, um, all set to put it for a word to the Page 8 �board of trustees and somewhere in that week in between, the newspaper did get a hold of it and there was a front page story saying Grand Valley is going to start to give domestic partner benefits. And I guess, from what I understand, he was inundated by donors. Saying, “uh uhh, [CM laughs in disbelief] our money is out of here, if you, if you do that, we will not allow that. If you go ahead and do domestic partner benefits, we‟re out of here, you will get no more money from us”. And they were big names, and you can imagine who some of those big names were. Many of our buildings are named after them. And he backed down, and it was a very difficult time, I‟m sure for him, because he had to back down publicly. After being quoted in the Grand Rapids Press as saying it was the right thing to do, six days later, he had to be quoted in the Grand Rapids Press as saying, well, perhaps I was hasty. And it was a very sad time, I‟m sure for him, and it certainly was for us. Then, there was a new president, and this goes on forever… There was a new president, new change in administration and they were no more willing, no more. That was President Murray‟s administration. He was only here for two years. He was very in tuned with the business community and just did not see it as a very wise thing to do. So… Um, we kept talking and talking and talking and finally about five years ago, the board, with very little fan fair instituted domestic benefits for LGBT in faculty and staff. And that was a huge victory. [It] sounds like such a little thing but we were; I think Grand Valley was the last in the state to do it. It might‟ve been second from last in the higher education institution. So that‟s one example here at Grand Valley. And things have just done a complete turnaround! I‟m not saying that it‟s perfect here for, um, especially here for students, it might be tough. But for faculty and staff, it‟s light years different from what it used to be. There‟s no, there‟s no negative feelings, there‟s no need to be invisible, there just isn‟t. It‟s a totally different environment. Some people may choose to for whatever reason, but totally different environment with a very active association. Uh, there‟s the LGBT center; that in itself took, uh, five years I think to convince them to get. Uh, yeah, they agreed to it in principle… [CM mocks the former Grand Valley politics] “yes yes yes yes, it‟s needed in principle…” But for the… We joke, for the first two or three years, the center, the center bear in mind, was a bookshelf [CM laughs in disbelief] over in, over in Kirkoff, or over in student services, I can‟t remember. And then, as you probably know, Professor Milt Ford really took it in hand and became the director; he was appointed director and then it became a center. Colette Beighley is the director now… It‟s a wonderful, wonderful resource. Sometimes I look at their programming; the movies and the speakers they‟re bringing in and I think, my gosh, ya know, it‟s like U of M, we‟re big time! Really fascinating programming and kind of, um, kind of, some of it‟s on the edge, ya know, they do a wonderful job. KR: Are you involved with them at all right now, currently? CM: Uhm, oh I certainly uh support. I am a member. I uhm, Being here in uhm, Grand Rapids makes it a little tough to be as involved on campus as I used to be and as I wanted to be. I, we used to be on campus, and you know you were a short walk away from everybody, it‟s a little bit different here now but, so no I am not as involved no. But I am certainly, not as directly involved, but very involved supportively. Mhmm. Page 9 �KR: Awesome, uhm, do you know what kind of projects they are currently working on at all or... CM: No, I think it‟s mostly to improve to, to just do more of the same... oh by the way are you familiar with the film, the LGBT history of West Michigan? SP: Ya, that‟s what we watched in class CM: Oh you did watch that SP: Actually we watched… [All talking at once] CM: Okay..I was, I don‟t know if you recognize.. people come up to me on the street and they say “those glasses, where have I met you before?” and we finally realized it was in that documentary! I‟m serious it has happened more than once! Which shows you how often I get glasses, get new glasses. [laughs] But yes, yeah that uhm.. but oh, what a wonderful documentary that was and the center was part of that. SP: I know that that video kinda touched on uhm, a lot of, a lot of people in the gay community that were involved with… CM: Oh, yes! SP: AIDS and STDS and… CM: Oh, yes! SP: Things of that sort, what kind of impact did that have on the Grand Rapids community? And especially personally? CM: Well, I certainly lost of gay male friends. A LOT. I can‟t tell you how many, [sighs] uhm memorial services and funerals that I might speak at or attend. A lot.. Uhm.. This might sound odd because I‟m on the one hand, AIDS was oh, in some ways it convinced the bigoted community that, this was God‟s punishment on gay people. That there you would see bumper stickers uhh, “AIDS IS GOD‟S PUNISHMENT” you‟d see bumper stickers saying that! [Explained in astonished voice] So anyway, on the one hand it had that just devastating affect politically in the community on the other hand I don‟t want in any way to at all call it a blessing but it gave a human face [pauses] to the gay community. Once people started realizing, oh my gosh. The guy I used to work with, just died of AIDS. Oh my god, I loved him. [mocking demeanor of such surprised individuals] And that of course happened, over and over and over again. I think people began to realize its not some fringe group, these are people that are integrated in my life, these are people I know. So, I would never say AIDS was a blessing on the gay community but it sure had some good results, I think. Mhmm. Uhm, and and its another group here in town as you have said, in the documentary, that the AIDS resource center was mmm, the work that they did at that time, that nobody else would, nobody would even visit those Page 10 �men. Who were sick and dying in their homes, uhm, AIDS resource center was just a magnificent work. KR: Were you involved with the AIDS resource center? CM: No, I‟m sorry to say that I wasn‟t, no. I mean as part of the network we have supported all of that, publicized all of it. But, no as far as directly working with it I didn‟t. KR: Uhm, how do you think the movie or documentary impacted people, [CM placed coffee cup on desk] not only at Grand Valley, but within our community. CM: Well you know, I, I would almost ask you that question. When I first saw it I was at the premiere showing of it, here on campus. It was over at Lucemore, it was just this fall. And it was I don‟t know if you have been told this but there was 700 people. It was uh, uh not a sellout, it was free had nothing to sell but it was an overflow audience, 200 had to watch it from another room or something like that. It was of course beautifully received there because a lot of the people who were there are knowing that it was going to be shown for the first time were people who had been involved historically for all of those years. I happened that night, to be sitting next to a student I had taught in high school. Uhm, she was a person who has been quite active in the Grand Rap… She was a straight woman, uhm but very active in the Grand Rapids community within theatre and things like that. Well I happened to be sitting next to her I mean we had [stammers] knew I mean we had seen each other through the years [breath] uh and she had probably knew that uh that I was gay, uh but her reaction was more interesting to me than the reaction of all the other people, they loved it. But after, she said I had no idea to think that when you would come in and teach us Shakespeare, [CM chuckles] that that night you were out there doing all these political things and meeting with the mayor and signing city ordinances and things like that. She said she had no idea that any of that was going on at that time, she just found that fascinating. [breathe] so uh, the time that I saw it it was very well received, I haven‟t I have shown portions in my class uh, oh the portion I show is the Jerry Crane portion. The teacher, the teacher in Byron Center that was fired and who subsequently died, I showed that and the minister who was talking uh, I knew Jerry Crane, not well, but I knew him a little bit, and his partner Randy. Uhm, so. What was the reaction when you saw it in class? KR: Uhm, I enjoyed it personally. I just thought that it was cool that people in the community at Grand Valley were spreading awareness and… CM: yeah, yeah. I was just delighted that Grand Valley had a part in it. And that‟s, that‟s the LGBT center, that‟s Collete Bagley, Bigley. Who is responsible for getting this out there, all the time. She‟s really, she‟s a dynamicist really. SP: It was definitely an eye opener, that‟s for sure. CM: Ah SP: I‟m sure it was to a lot of people Page 11 �CM: Really!? SP: Especially in our class CM: Huh..In the sense that?... SP: In the sense that, I was just unaware and that I had no idea CM: Uh huh, of all that had been going on SP: Right, yeah especially how far it had gone back into the history of Grand Rapids… CM: Oh, yeah SP: .. and community CM: and..and of course the people, that you may not recall, but the very first person talking, uh, she was just sitting alone in her room, and she had shorts on, and I can‟t remember…she was talking about the gay bar scene for women, uhm, very good friend of mine, and she had been involved during that period. Pre-dating me, she she‟s the same age as me, but as I say I kind of got involved in the community later. I wish that somebody could do a documentary on that scene, that prehistory of Grand Rapids where everybody was closeted. Uhm, and the only place that you could meet, was in the, in gay bars, and homes of course. Jeff Smith the person who did the documentary says he is thinking of doing that, probably would need to do it fairly soon because that that‟s an older population, older even than even I am, or older than even she is you know. For the most part, those women would now be in their 80s maybe, most of them, late 70s and 80s.. [pause] so, well I‟m glad that you like the documentary. KR: Mhmm.. uhm, lets see. How do you think that, like throughout the years of being an activist, uhm.. how do you think your views, did they change at all or… CM: No, I think they just became more uhm deep rooted, deep seeded, yeah. And in class when we talk about it, students often ask me if I would change, if I could. Uhm, uhh [breathes out in awe], No the answer is absolutely not. I said uh well ya know, it would be a whole lot easier for you if you did, or it would have been a lot. I think it had, I think it has given me, again I don‟t want to say that it‟s a blessing but in a way it is, I think it‟s given me kind of uh, uh a double vision. Uh, when I was growing up and younger people would say things about African Americans they would say things about, in my home town, Mexicans, they would say things about uh, single mothers, illegitimate children [laughs] and they would say things about gay people. And I, I can remember thinking, hmmm I know that‟s not true what they are saying, I know that‟s not true about me, and I know that‟s not true about what they are saying about my friends, maybe it‟s not true what they are saying about black people, or Mexican people or illegitimate children, which is what they were called, or single mothers uhm. Or welfare, maybe its not true about them either. So it has kind of given me uh, uhm like a second lense almost, to Page 12 �look through. So, no. My my answer feelings haven‟t changed, or my thoughts, they‟ve just grown more convinced. SP: Whenever students would ask you if you could change would you, did you ever, has there ever been like uh, a jealousy of not having a family like a like the normal [sarcasm], the American family CM: The American dream? [Chuckles] SP: Yeah, the American dream type of deal CM: [laughs] it really has never bothered me, I think it might some people, although with things developing as they are now that‟s gonna be possible, it already is many, many people are already living lives made it possible. But no, it‟s never been uh, a regret of mine or anything. Uh, uh. Sometimes, as I get older I wonder, hmmm who‟s gonna take care of me when I‟m in the hollowed home [sarcasm and laughs] things will work out. KR: Uhm, let‟s see. [pause] Is there uhm EI: I know you talked about how you said that you can like see changes occurring, uhm what within the community can you like truly like see a difference in like in especially like within Grand Valley if you have seen anything CM: Oh, just the openness EI: Just the openness? CM: Oh my Lord Yes. [With enthusiasm] Yeah. Just the openness. Uh, there is no other way to say it. It‟s, uh a non-issue now. And, and, and its not that its not supported I mean it it‟s an issue at the LGBT center and its an issue whenever there is harassment and stuff like that, its… it it its [stammers] just like its different era we‟re breathing. In uh, in society in general, I think that to me the biggest difference, I never [emphasized] would have in million years dream that we would talk about gay marriage. Ever! [laughs] uhm, I don‟t it will happen, it will certainly happen in our lifetimes, but ah, who would ever have thought that when you consider 25, 30 years ago, and even today some people are afraid to self-identify and now we are talking about the possibility of gay marriage, woah! Its, its remarkable and when you get discouraged, it‟s helpful to look back at at things. Doesn‟t mean there‟s any less resentment and hate out there, because there is a lot of it, but it‟ll change. Mhmm. KR: Where do you see uhm, the civil rights of the LGBTQ community going in the future. Like what topics may be.. CM: I think gay marriage is the ultimate KR: Mhmm Page 13 �CM: Mhmm, [breathes] in fact [laughs] those of us who came up through the harder times, ya know when you come up through hard times you kind of develop a sense of comradeship and we‟re all in this together against the world some, of us have said oh, when we‟re like everybody else [chuckles] maybe we‟re gonna miss that, that comradeship but ya know for African Americans it was known as black pride at that time uhm, gay pride, maybe we‟re going to miss kind of fighting against the world. Just us against them. But if so, it‟s worth it for civil rights. I mean it it it it [stammers] if we did miss that, that‟s a small thing to miss, yeah.. it‟s a good trade off to have civil rights, SP: So I know that you said that it throughout, that you‟ve seen a change throughout the straight community where they have become more accepting… CM: Mhmmm SP: ...is that, what is your reaction to the west Michigan lifestyle, if you will, that that community has become more accepting of the gay community CM: [stutters] change in them or change in? SP: A change in them, a change in... CM: In them? SP: ...how do you think, how do you feel that they, that you‟ve gotten the western Michigan people to become more accepting CM: Uhm, it was never overt hatred before, so its hard ya know its hard to say SP: Mhmm CM: Now that there is, because it was never overt before all I can say is, it it theres not the tension. Uhm, nope. Uh, you you might think twice before you self-identify, or or or are open, you might think twice, but..but by the time you think the third time you think, who cares. [laughs] they‟ll, ya know like what are they gonna do. Now that‟s not everybody. There are a lot of people who have a whole lot at stake and who, simply can‟t, I mean I‟m not in a perfect position for heaven‟s sakes, I‟m tenured faculty, you can‟t get much more safe than that. I really mean that I‟ve never had to worry about employment. Employment is a huge issue, uh in some cases uh, custody battle. Huge issue with some parents worry „I have to give up my children‟ if I‟m open. So, mhmm. KR: Uhm. So, do you have anything else you would like to share with us, any of your stories or…? CM: [laughs] Uhm, [pause] I was saying to my my partner we‟ve been together about 23 years now. She says „what are you going to say this morning, when they interview? [laughs] You‟re not going to say anything you‟re not supposed to are you, what are you gonna talk about?‟ uhm, Page 14 �actually we‟ve covered a whole lot of ground. Uhm. Nothing comes to my mind, although I am more than happy to share anything else that you can think of. KR: Uhm, do you guys have any more questions? SP: I‟m out of questions. CM: out of questions? KR: Alrighty, well uhm thank you so much. CM: Absolutely! KR: This concludes the oral history. CM: Absolutely! KR: Yep, Thank you, for your time and also thanks to Grand Valley for putting on this program. CM: Yes. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely that also. Should I be…should I sign this as far as a release form… END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b16f9b03fcbc64efb7da5844ef188e4c.mp3 bfe1209a2739b884102ec073862bb5dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Mader_Cynthia Title A name given to the resource Cynthia Mader audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mader, Cynthia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rosema, Kailey Pratt, Stephen Immekus, Erica Description An account of the resource Cynthia Mader is an outstanding woman who is an advocate for the advancement of civil rights for the LGBTQ community in the West Michigan area, as well as a professor in Grand Valley State University's College of Education. Recently, Cynthia was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Women's Commission, March 13th, 2012. Cynthia's involvement for social justice led her to be the First Board of Directors within the Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated, in which she organized Grand Rapids' first pride celebration, and fought with local public administration offices for the passing of laws that banned sexual orientation discrimination Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Homophobia Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6b6c94223593ef444dd1fbb5c600040f.pdf 86b056b10ddabb5a21be8d09deca3497 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Christina McAllister Interviewers: Philip Matro, Douglas Brunner and Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/7/2011 Biography and Description Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Transcript VANBIESBROUCK: My name is Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck and we are here today on November 7, 2011 and I am Interviewing Dennis Jones and Christina McAllister about their experience of diversity in West Michigan. Okay, Christina if you would give me some basic information about yourself like where you grew up, your siblings, what’s your family like. MCALLISTER: Okay, I grew up in Lowell, Michigan. It was kind of a farm town. I have six sisters. Both of my parents came from...were married previously, had children, and then had me and my younger sister. So lots of kids, all girls. I was raised in a Christian home, so church and religion and all that was part of my upbringing. My parents were very conservative. VANBIESBROUCK: And what ethnicity are you? MCALLISTER: I am white. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, and when is your birthday? MCALLISTER: May 29, 1989 and what else do you want to know? VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good for now. Okay, Dennis, where did you grow up, what’s your family like? JONES: I grew up in Waukegan, Illinois. It’s pretty much 45 minutes dead north of Chicago. I actually was closer to the Wisconsin border. But I grew up. I am the youngest of four siblings and my older sister, that is my half sister. My mom, she was in a previous relationship, marriage, and that’s where my oldest sister came from and then me and my brother and my other sister are all from my mom and my dad. Waukegan is kind of an interesting place. I lived on the border of two cities, Waukegan and Beach Park. Beach Park is more of a richer area and Waukegan is like, I guess, the poorer side of the city and so I got to see a lot of both areas, but I also grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor from the time I Page 1 �could remember, so he’s been doing that. And my mom grew up in a Christian home. Her dad was a pastor. My dad didn’t grow up in a Christian home. He was kind of in and out of church and kind of doing his own thing and then he was in the Army for awhile and then he got hurt and that is when he came to know Christ. So he hasn’t always been a Christ-follower, but all my life I have known him as one. So I ended up, I mean, I am black if you wanted to know that. VANBIESBROUCK: Thank you. JONES: No problem. So it’s been kind of funny. I have grown up around all different types of ethnicity with being on the border of two cities with Waukegan and Beach Park. And then also being in the public school system for awhile there from kindergarten til sixth grade and then I started going to a public school from sixth grade on and then I was predominantly around Caucasians. And so it’s never been anything new. Huh? MCALLISTER: You went to a private school. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Oh, you said public. JONES: Yeah, public from kindergarten to fifth grade. MCALLISTER: And then private after that. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Okay. JONES: I love you, too. This is my part of the interview. So, yeah, for the most part I have always been around all different types of races so I have never been the type to kind of shy away from any type of race or just somebody else because of skin color. And I grew up, I have mixed cousins. I had a white cousin there for awhile before they got divorced, if that makes sense. Cousin-in-law. So, yeah that’s kind of a little bit of my story. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, what about you Christina? Have you always been around Caucasians cause you’ve been in West Michigan? MCALLISTER: Primarily, yes. I went to a Christian high school that was close to Muskegon, which is a lot of black people. And so we had a few black students there. I was not really good friends with any of them. They weren’t the coolest people to hang out with. But my parents always raised me to never look at color when you’re meeting someone, that you get to know their personality and who they are and it’s their morals and qualities and characteristics that count. So even though I was not exposed to a lot of different races, that was something very important to my parents because it was. VANBIESBROUCK: So growing up, did you guys, like, what did you want your boyfriend or your girlfriend, like what qualities did you want them to have and did you think about dating someone from a different Page 2 �ethnicity? Was that part of what you considered or did you not even think about that when you were younger? MCALLISTER: Well when I was younger I never thought about that. I never expected to be with a black guy because I didn’t really know any black people and I certainly was not attracted to any of the ones that I did know. So, my ideal man was tall, dark and handsome which I ended up getting in a little different form. Just kidding. So I guess the most important thing to me was someone who was hardworking and who was going to love me, who loves Jesus, and those are pretty much the most important things to me. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis? JONES: For me, I think it’s funny because just the way, ever since I grew up I was kind of the more different one out of my family. “You’re so proper, you’re so this, you’re so that” which I thought was funny. And they always would say, “Yeah, you’re not going to marry a black girl, or you’re never going to be with a black girl.” And I was like, “Yeah I probably won’t.” So I always grew up knowing that I probably wouldn’t date someone within my race or, I guess not knowing, but I always just. I never really always looked at other cultures or other ethnicities before a black person or a black girl if that makes sense. And it’s not like I had anything against them, it was just, I don’t know, being wired that way as a kid and always interested in other cultures and other different looking girls. I remember like in fourth grade, I really liked this Asian girl. That was kind of funny. So that’s never really been an issue for me, like race or anything like that. But, like one of the main things I really grew up wanting out of a girl was a Christian-based faith and grounded foundations in that cause that’s where my family came from, very strong Christians, and just good morals and values about herself and someone that wasn’t, my mom said, “Loose.” I never knew what that meant, but she always said it and I guess I know what it means now that I’m older. So, that’s kind of my story of choosing a woman. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, Christina, could you tell me how you guys met? MCALLISTER: Yes. We met at Cornerstone University, which is where we both went to college. Dennis was a year ahead of me. It was my Freshman year, his Sophomore year. In the winter time, Dennis was coaching...not coaching...he was helping out with intramural volleyball. He was reffing. And we had seen each other around and stuff and I guess I thought he was cute for a black guy but I was not really interested in black guys, so I never really thought about dating him but we ended up kind of hanging out one night after or during the volleyball games and we had a lot of fun, we really connected. We just kind of like, our personalities like immediately, like it was just so easy to hang out with him and have fun with him and stuff. I guess that was the first time I was like, “Oh, I actually kind of like you.” VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. JONES: I guess my version is a little different. I remember the first time I met her. We both played sports at Cornerstone and it was near the training room and she was in there and I was getting my ankles taped for practice and she was... I don’t know what she was doing. And I knew her friend Hellen before I knew her and I saw Hellen and I was like, “Oh Hellen, how you doing?” And then in the hallway I met her and she was like, “Oh yeah this is Christina.” And I was like, “Oh hey Christina, how you doing?” And the next Page 3 �day I saw her and I actually forgot her name and I was like, “Oh hey, you. How are you doing?” And then she was like, “My name’s Christina.” And I was like, “Yeah.” And from there I always thought she was a cute girl and stuff like that but at the time she was kind of dating someone else and I was like, “Yeah, whatever.” So I did not really think anything of it and it was a couple weeks later, a month later or something. I don’t know, it was awhile after that and I was just doing the intramural stuff and I was just hyper that night for some reason and then she ended up being around and she ended up falling to my wrath of someone I started talking to. I talked to a lot of people and she ended up being that person that night. I guess it was a blessing? I’m just kidding, it was a good thing. VANBIESBROUCK: So like once you two started getting serious, were either one of you kind of intimidated or scared or nervous about the fact that one of you is white and one of you is black? Or did it just not even cross your mind? JONES: Well for me it didn’t cross mine initially I thought this thing was never going to work out after we had our first couple dates. We both thought we were just like “Alright this isn’t going to work out.” We were really.., the night we met we really had a lot of fun and stuff like that and then when we went on a couple dates it was just like, “Ooo, so..” and that kind of that awkward funk in the air. But as far as being intimidated or anything like that with like race or color, it never crossed my mind initially at all until I guess when I met her family. But that didn’t really bother me. Instead I always, even in high school, I was always the minority so I was always around people of different color and so for me it was easy to just bond and talk to other people and their families. Especially playing sports through high school, always like around my friends’ families, like with my dad being a pastor, it was hard for my mom and him to get out to games and stuff like that or make the long road trips cause they were always involved with church and stuff like that so I always spent a lot of time with my friends’ families or would go over there before practice and hang out with them and their family. So it was always easy for me to get along with a friend’s family, so to speak cause it was just like, “Oh yeah.” It kind of reminds me of high school, so even watching a lot of my friend’s family, like same thing in college with sports and stuff, my family never got the chance to come out a lot, especially being away from home and playing sports. It was always easier to connect with other families cause that was my family at the time, so me meeting her family and being around her never really intimidated me. VANBIESBROUCK: Same for you? MCALLISTER: No, it was very different for me. Dennis was the first black friend I’d ever had and, really, like a genuine friend and so it was really all I actually thought about really was that probably for the first couple months. And I mean I really like Dennis as a person and it obviously didn’t stop me from dating him but it was something I was very like unsure about. I don’t know, I was just curious, because, something I really hadn’t hardly been exposed to at all. So, I stuck with Dennis for the first couple dates cause I wanted to kiss a black guy. JONES: That is exactly what she told me. MCALLISTER: It’s really true. I’ve come this far, I might as well, get to the date where we kiss and... JONES: She told me that after we had been together for awhile. It must have been a good kiss. Page 4 �MCALLISTER: I had a lot of encouragement from my friends and people who knew Dennis that, “Oh, it’s a good thing and it doesn’t matter about color, and all those things will work out.” So all the concerns I guess that I had initially I had a chance to work through and process on my own. And then on my own and kind of with my friends and people who knew Dennis. So by thetime a couple months in when I was really...it was starting to get serious, I knew that I wanted to do it and was committed and that color and stuff doesn’t really matter and those things that could be problems or something in the future, even if they ended up being a problem, I was willing to, I guess, sacrifice or work through it or whatever. . JONES: For me it was just like “Hey, let’s do this thing.” I didn’t like.., nothing crossed my mind about like how people perceived me or if we got looks or anything like that cause it was just normal to be for some reason. Just cause of the way I grew up, the people I was around, the school I went to when I was in high school, being a private school, being primarily around white people and a few other races. But, I mean for me, I guess it was normalized for me at a young age so it just never really bothered me. VANBIESBROUCK: So what was your family’s response to each other or to you? Or their attitude? JONES: My family didn’t care. They were like, “Oh, nice. Bring her around.” “Alright, if I can. Kind of busy.” I don’t know. It didn’t... my family, it wasn’t an issue, it wasn’t a big issue at all. VANBIESBROUCK: Was that partially because you already had people in your family who had already been with white people before? JONES: Yeah, that too. Plus our family background, it’s just always been, “It doesn’t matter,” especially my mom’s side of the family. My dad, a little bit different, because he’s from down south. But with him it was no big deal. It doesn’t matter, so I guess with my immediate family it was like, “Oh, that’s cool. Make sure she’s the right one, make sure you’re looking for all the right things and not just dating her to date her.” They were more worried about the person than the color. VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. Christina? MCALLISTER: My family’s response was a little bit different. Actually it was really surprising to me because of the way my parents had raised me and taught me to be so open-minded to color and to culture and that kind of thing. I waited awhile before I really brought Dennis home. We kind of don’t bring a guy home unless you are serious about him. It is kind of the family rule. So I brought him home and told some of my family I was serious about him. My mom especially definitely had some concerns about us and our relationship. And that was probably the biggest hurdle as far as this stuff goes, with the whole black-white thing that we had to get through. she...this was before she really got to know Dennis, just kind of going off the whole color thing, basically. VANBIESBROUCK: So like a stereotype? MCALLISTER: Yeah, the biggest thing that tripped her up. JONES: Always fighting the stereotype. I’ll tell ya. Page 5 �MCALLISTER: Well it wasn’t really...it wasn’t really concerns like, “I don’t like a black guy.” It was mostly the cultural differences and marriage is tough already and relationships are tough. And you are going to have to think about your kids and what they are going to have to go through. And you have to think about how it is going to put a lot more pressure on your relationship with something that is already tough. And different...just adjustments between coming together and being married and we had only been dating for a few months, so it was like we were jumping to marriage. But that is what we think about long-term. Anyways, so... but she was just if we are coming from two different cultures to try to bring that together and form a family that has a lot more stresses added to just coming t gether and being a family. So those were their concerns initially. And that was really hard because at that time I was preset on dating Dennis and I really loved him and I wanted that to happen. And my mother’s a very stubborn woman, so my dad being the practical one, they both talked to me and said, “Well these are our concerns about it.” And I told them, “I understand that. I think that things are changing. I don’t think things are going to be as tough as you think it’s going to be. Dennis’s background is probably not as different as you think it is.” So just kind of like I guess setting at ease some of their concerns. And then I continued to date Dennis and do that relationship and that was...my mom has the My Way or the Highway policy, so that didn’t really go over well for her, at first. She really thought the longer we were together, the more it was kind of eating at her that this was a bad thing and she was so concerned about all these things. So that was really tough for us because it got to this point where she was just like, “well we don’t approve of this relationship,” and blah blah blah. So we had to get through that. And my response was, “just get to know Dennis because I think you might change your mind.” And that is how my dad responded, of course, because he is the practical one and the other side of it was Dennis. I think it was hard for you to kind of go through that, but Dennis’s attitude was just that he was gonna just show him who he was and try to win them over, I guess. And he did that. And now, my family absolutely loves Dennis and can’t imagine him not being a part of the family. VANBIESBROUCK: So, Dennis, how did you respond or did Christina tell you what her parents were kind of feeling or did you kind of assume? JONES: At first, I didn’t assume at all but then she told me. I was guess I was taken back by it because I had never been in a situation like this. And for me it was like there was not much we could do. It is what it is. And I think I remember telling her... she was...l remember one night she came to me and she was crying, talking about how she was really upset with her mom and I said, “well, it’s okay. I will just prove them wrong.” I think those were pretty much my words. And I said, “it doesn’t matter.” And I said “from what I can see, your family’s great, but it was probably something they never had to deal with before.” And I was like, my family this is not an issue at all. I reassured her that it’s... we don’t really care about color. And my mission was to kill them with kindness and love and be myself. Like me her dad, we got along really well initially and I think him, the way he acted around me and that way he accepted me was kind of the biggest one, always the boyfriend4ather acceptance thing. And that was huge for me. And then for her mom, it was just like it is gonna be a tough one but we can do it. So that one was just a lot of work and I remember... now thinking back to it, I can see that there was times when she was a little more kind of cautious and stuff like that. But now, it doesn’t even matter. MCALLISTER: Now he’s the family favorite. Page 6 �JONES: I am the family favorite which is pretty sweet. Usually they go through a ranking like, “oh, Pat, Dan, Dennis.” And I mean, it’s usually, I’m at the top, so I take the cake. MCALLISTER: The boys have a ranking system. JONES: Yeah, usually as a family. Usually your youngest sister, her boyfriend always comes in last, but we won’t talk about that. But usually I finish at the top. The only reason I am in second right now is because the oldest daughter had kids. MCALLISTER: Can’t compete with the grandkids. JONES: I can’t compete with the grandkids. But I am a damn close second. We usually talk about it sometimes too, me and Pat. MCALLISTER: That is ridiculous. JONES: Pats really fighting hard for the first place but I can’t do anything about the grandkids. Just give it a while til we have our kids, we’ll be in first. VANBIESBROUCK: So for a while it was kinda like they just didn’t know you so they were hesitant, but once they got to know you. JONES: Yeah I think that was the big thing. MCALLISTER: Yes. My dad grew up in West Michigan where there wasn’t a lot of diversity back in the day. And my mom grew up in California where there was a lot of diversity but moved to Michigan when she was probably late twenties early thirties so this a long time ago and things were really different then. So the diversity she got exposed to was kind of more, I mean times were different back then a lot more people were racists and had those kind of thoughts and didn’t accept people and were segregated. So I think that their background and not being exposed to that was the biggest thing that freaked them out. It wasn’t even necessarily because of the way they raised us they were definitely always you shouldn’t think about people’s color it was definitely something that they were always adament about but I think it was when it actually like happened and came to be that they were like whoah, now what. So it just took a while but I think once they kind of got used to the idea and yeah get to know dennis so. VANBIESBROUCK: Were your friends kind of the same way? MCALLISTER: I think our friends were.. VANBIESBROUCK: Well I mean most of our friends knew Dennis before from school. MCALLISTER: Yeah most of my friends did know Dennis before JONES: I think I knew most of your friends before I knew you. Page 7 �MCALLISTER: Yeah. I mean everyone was really accepting, as far as friends. I don’t feel like anyone like in our age group has ever been weird about it or concerned or anything it’s always like “oh yeah we love you guys!”. So that was good, lots of support that way which is good. VANBIESBROUCK: And your grandparents were the same way? JONES: Well my grandma was the biggest one, she didn’t care who she was. My grandma was like as long as she knows Christ, your fine with her. If you didn’t get out of there so my grandma never really, she was the biggest one, she never saw color ever since I have known her she never cared. Her biggest thing was, like I was saying we have a huge Christian background, it was Christ your good in her book or even if you didn’t it’s not like she hated you but she definitely let know Jesus was the way type of deal. She would sit out on her porch and talk to any and everybody that came by, like all the kids in the neighborhood loved her, she was that type of lady. So color was never an issue she I mean she worked for a white lady for a while if I’m not mistaken, like cleaning her house and stuff like that. So it was not like slave labor or anything like that it was definitely like they were good friends and she just helped her out like that. One of her best friends I can remember was a white lady. VANBIESBROUCK: So like your parents and grandparents are they like the main reason why your so open to different ethnicities or is that just how you are as a person? JONES: I think it’s a little bit of both. I mean, my family has always told me I was different when I was younger ha and they still tell me I’m different like they don’t understand me. Just because I’m a lot of off the wall stuff but just personality stuff they don’t understand, like if you put me in the middle of a forest with a bunch of Indians and ask I could probably start talking to them about a bunch of stuff haha that’s just the way I am. So they don’t understand where I got that from because my dad is a fairly quiet man and my morn is I don’t know she is kind of shy when she meets new people and stuff like that but for me its just like whatever. I don’t know it’s a combination of the way I was raised and developing into a new person. MCALLISTER: My dad’s grandma is really quiet, she doesn’t say much but she has always liked you. JONES: Yeah she has always been nice to me, she never really said anything. I don’t know I’ve always been, unless she hates me and I don’t know about it. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she is really quiet, she doesn’t really say a lot but she has always been nice to Dennis. JONES: She gives me hugs. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she likes Dennis. You’ve never met my grandpa. JONES: No I’ve never met your mom’s dad. MCALLISTER: He married a very southern woman, remarried. My grandma died and then he remarried this lady and I know she doesn’t approve of our relationship. She has never met Dennis and neither has he but she likes to speak her southern piece about it. She’s kind of crazy. But um we had a family Page 8 �reunion this last summer and Dennis met my great uncles and aunts, so my grandpa’s brothers and sisters, were all there and then my uncles and aunts. Everybody like loved Dennis so, even my great uncles and aunts, we talked about it like they are from anothergeneration they are all in their gosh sixties seventies, no they have to be older than that now. JONES: yeah seventies. MCALLISTER: At least seventies some of them are in their eighties I think. So totally different generation and we talked about it like it might be a little weird. JONES: And my response was yeah I don’t care haha. MCALLISTER: Yeah. but they loved him, he was there for the first like day or two and then first two days and then he left because he had his own family reunion and the next day when Dennis was gone they were all like Dennis is so great we really like him blah blah blah. My great aunt invited the two of us up to her house in Canada so ha were gonna go up there sometime. But yeah, I was actually really surprised with how accepting they were. Not that I would expect them to be different but just that generations are different and sometimes you never know, people have these strange opinions. VANBIESBROUCK: So like when you two were talking to your parents about each other what was the first thing you told them like Christina did you tell your parents like the first thing you told them was it Dennis is black or was that like the last thing? MCALLISTER: No I actually didn’t really say that at all. I kind of thought that they would just be like that they wouldn’t care at all. And that’s probably me being a little bit naive because of the fact that I never had any black friends and here I am bringing home this black guy, yeah I really like I want to date him haha. They of course are probably going to be like wait at minute. so no obviously I don’t even think I told them that at all and then when I brought him home, they were like oh he’s black ha ha. JONES: Yeah my family just assumed she was a different race. MCALLISTER: Hahaha JONES: They were just like, they knew like ah she’s white huh, and I was like yeah type of deal. But it wasn’t a big thing it was kind of like family joking and fun but it wasn’t a big thing. They were happy, they were pretty happy. They have never said anything about race or anything like that. But yeah, they literally just assumed. “Hey morn I’m dating somebody”, “Oh alright she’s white huh”, “Yup” haha. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it frustrating for either one of you, or Dennis for your family that Christina’s family kind of had reservations about it? JONES: umm VANBIESBROUCK: Or about you two? Page 9 �JONES: I actually, it was kind of one of those things I decided to keep to myself. I didn’t want my family to pre-judge her family. Unless they asked I said something, my morn asked and I think that was one of my biggest, or my mom’s biggest concerns, was them being accepting of me. And she was kind of like, well my mom is kind of one of those conspiracy theorists I like to think. My dad was just like alright make the right choices, see you later. My mom she will talk to me for 15 hours about the same thing. I think her biggest thing was well how those things can go. Something happens with you and her and they will blame it on you and try and go after you and I’m like mom it’s not like that at all haha, oh my gosh she formulates all of these crazy things, its kind of funny but ridiculous at the same time. And that was just her biggest concern, if anything big ever happened like what would they do, would they kind of hold a grudge against me not only because I did something to their daughter their baby but it was a black man that did it. So that was my mom’s biggest concern and I was like ahh it’s not that big of deal. I’m not stupid I’m not gonna do anything crazy. If anyone breaks up she will be the one who breaks up with me. I don’t know why I thought that haha but that’s just the way I thought of it. VANBIESBROUCK: So like in the beginning of your relationship would you guys say you, was like harder because her family was kind of hesitant or was it just one of those things where its something they thought it might be hard whereas a Christian family might think it’s hard to dat a Catholic but you get over it. Was it the same thing? JONES: In a way. I think it was mainly for me, her parents. I wanted to make sure her parents were ok with me and winning her parents over. Her sisters were, they just didn’t care. They were like oh yeah he’s great type of deal, and so for me it was just her parents. I just wanted acceptance of the parents. MCALLISTER: I mean it was hard for a while. But they did get over it and pretty quickly. And my family really does love Dennis now. VANBIESBROUCK: So is it weird going to a white household for a while, have you learned any new traditions or like weird things that your family doesn’t do? JONES: Haha yeah there are a few, I can’t name them, but there was one thing I don’t know. Like just, I guess Thanksgiving we call it “soul food” haha. We call it dressing, what you guys call stuffing. And I remember my mom, like parents told me “your like a chameleon you can take on the attitude and shape of anybody your around. If your around Mexicans you will somehow try and speak Spanish. Or if your around white people how to talk like a white person and be like a white person. If you’re around black people, you may not know how to talk like a black person but how to sound like, bionics, be around them and how to hold a conversation”. VANBIESBROUCK: Like fit in. JONES: Yeah. And then so I don’t know I went home and like unconsciously I was like yeah I’ll get some stuffing and my mom goes “what did you just say”, I was like “ah I meant dressing sorry”. Haha like I know it’s a taboo but just simple things like that with food and stuff. I don’t think like cultural things. I think this is funny, like, face towels-we use face towels all the time at home to wash up and take showers and stuff like that and every time I’m like you don’t use face towel? No I don’t need a face towel why would I need a face towel to wash up, a face towel is for your face. That’s kind of one Page 10 �different thing, and they are like you picked that up off those white people. I’m like no I didn’t I’ve always been that way! Anyway. I think that for me is just kind of the funny things. VANBIESBROUCK: Any for you? MCALLISTER: Yeah. The first time I went to Dennis’s house it was really crazy. I couldn’t understand what anyone was saying like the whole time I was there. Well his dad has a really deep, southern accent so he is like impossible to understand, well he was at first. JONES: I’m like the only one that can understand my dad. Most people, like my brothers and sisters, after he comes back from being down south they can’t even understand him. But for me it’s like oh yeah I’ll go get that for you and they are like what did he say? So I knew my dad would be a tough person for her to understand in the first place anyway. MCALLISTER: Yeah but , it was definitely like a lot more of a culture shock than what I thought it was going to be because like spending time with Dennis I knew his habits and things like that about him but he is like a white black man and I didn’t really realize his family is not that way haha. VANBIESBROUCK: How long had you been dating Dennis before you met his family? MCALLISTER: Four months. So, gosh I can’t remember. Yeah it was hard to understand them, they always liked to talk about past experiences and like family stuff. They have all these like family stories and secrets, not like secrets but jokes or whatever. And so I like didn’t say very much at all the first time I was there and um, and then we went to let’s see, we went to their church and that was really crazy haha. Um I had never been to a black church before and it was very interesting. It was really loud, everyone was singing and dancing. Lots of amen’s and thank you Jesus, lots of that kind of thing. I had never seen his dad talk like that before. JONES: Yeah my dad is super quiet at home, doesn’t say much, but when he talks its like very profound and so wisdom filled and your like man! And then when he gets in front of the pulpit he will talk for hours and hours upon end and your like shut up I want to go home and watch the bears game. Sometimes by brother and I will sit in the back and kind of give him the cut throat like you need to stop. MCALLISTER: Ha well it’s not just talking he like goes on rants. JONES: Yeah he takes a lot of rabbit trails when he’s preaching so she was like I didn’t understand a word or I didn’t understand the message at all. MCALLISTER: Yeah it was very different. I was used to like teaching out of scripture he was just going on. VANBIESBROUCK: Or like an outline to follow? MCALLISTER: Yeah, which I later learned that’s what they do in their bible study. They do that before but the service we went to, I don’t know, was like a praise and worship service. That’s what it seemed like to me. Page 11 �JONES: A lot of church in my family growing up, they have so many different services I can’t even remember them all its crazy. MCALLISTER: So that was probably the craziest thing that I experienced first. JONES: That was my biggest fear, was taking her to church with my family. I still am like I don’t want you going to church with my family) don’t want you to like run away haha. Seriously. MCALLISTER: (didn’t’ run away, I was clapping and singing and I got really into it! JONES: I still am afraid to take her home, to church and we’ve been dating three and a half four years. VANBIESBROUCK: So that’s not the type of church that you would want to go to as a couple? Or Dennis you just like white people’s church better? JONES: For me, it doesn’t bother me I just want her to be comfortable because I’ve seen everything being in a black church. So I think for her (just want to see her comfortable and I can pretty much fit in with any scene. I like the church that we go to now. MCALLISTER: We go to my family’s church now. JONES: That was funny, I was terrified to bring her home. I was like man I don’t know what my family’s going to do, they are going to embarrass me. (think that was my biggest thing rather than race I was like I hope they don’t say anything stupid. VANBIESBROUCK: Did they make jokes about Christina being pale or anything? JONES: My mom made a couple of jokes. MCALLISTER: Yeah actually the first time I was there they did. It was funny. JONES: My family is very like joking, like we make fun of each other all the time. I think that’s typical with a lot of black families. That’s kind of how we express our love. We just make fun of each other haha. Like me and my brother, we never really tell each other I love you but it’s kind of one of those things . Me and him always grew up making fun of each other, my sister too. Like I’ll call her and be like “hey what’s up ugly how you doing”, she’s like “oh hey stupid” its just like oh ok like understood that we love each other. Even bringing in the way I grew up, that was kind of one of the tougher things because my family doesn’t really express a lot of love and we’re not like super touchy feely. And that was actually kind of the way I was raised and seeing my dad express his love for my mom and that was tough because that’s what I grew up around and thought it was normal, apparently it’s not. I mean not that it’s not normal but a different way of, like I would show her my love through just acts and stuff like that. MCALLISTER: Slapping me on the shoulder ha. JONES: Yeah and uh for her it was like “why don’t you tell me you love me, why don’t you do this for me, or take care of that for me”? And I’m like what I thought I was showing you I loved you. So I think it was, Page 12 �just being around that too growing up, was kind of one of our tougher hurdles. Learning the love language. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it, I mean is Christina like anybody else you’ve dated before? JONES: No actually. I don’t think I ever really haha. MCALLISTER: Normally he is really into chubby blonde girls haha. JONES: That’s not true at all! Couple blunders in my dating career but I got a couple lookers in there. I’ve had some good-looking girls, maybe not dated them but hahah but it’s not a big deal. You haven’t had quite the greatest dating career in your path either have you. MCALLISTER: I’ve had lots of great guys. JONES: A lot of questionable decisions there huh. No but I forgot the question haha. VANBIESBROUCK: Ha, if she is like anyone you’ve dated. JONES: Ah no she’s not. Totally different from any other girl I’ve dated. VANBIESBROUCK: Personality-wise? JONES: Yup, personality-wise, yeah real different. And I think that’s what drew me to her. I was like oh she might be a keeper. And then haha, also the also her faith and everything. That was something that really kind of got me. My mom was like “if you find a girl that believes in God and trusts in God that’s really rare in this world now a days and she’s like if you find a girl that, you need to keep her”. And I remember those words. And I remember one time I was home for a holiday and my uncle who, which I thought was kind of funny, was kind of a ladies man and like kind of a player/dog. And he was just a dog, dirty dog, but I love him. He was like “well son I’ll tell you one thing, if you find a girl that can make you change then that’s a girl you need to keep” and I remember those were two big things that made me really search in her to make to be like is this someone I want to keep in my life and marry. And I still can say I hold true to those words and she has definitely lived up to those. MCALLISTER: Aww JONES: Oh geez now I’m getting mushy haha. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis is nothing like a guy you’ve dated before? MCALLISTER: no not really. He is a lot different I guess, there are certain traits that are similar to certain guys but I guess overall in general he is pretty unique. obviously I’ve never dated a black guy before so that was new haha. I guess the things that I liked about hirn was that he was always really friendly, outgoing, really easygoing, really easy to get along with. Probably, the guys I dated before were a lot rnore emotional and like crabby. JONES: She liked pretty boys and skinny Jean type guys Page 13 �MCALLISTER: No I didn’t JONES: Yes you did. You liked the emo kids. MCALLISTER: That’s not ever true. I never even dated an erno guy. I dated a country bumpkin, and an athlete. That’s pretty much it. JONES: doesn’t count as an athlete. Hahahaha. MCALLISTER: He doesn’t count as an athlete. He doesn’t count as anything. I didn’t even put his narne on this recording. JONES: She can ‘X” it out. Hahahaha MCALLISTER: anyways, yeah I forgot the question. VANBIESBROUCK: So I guess like, you guys’ personalities kind of trump the fact that, that you are different ethnically? JONES: Yup MCALLISTER: Yup definitely. JONES: for me yup. MCALLISTER: yeah. JONES: I would have to say, that is definitely the biggest part for me that was the biggest one. MCALLISTER: Our families met this summer. JONES: Yeah thats wierd that our families actually met for the first time after, well being so far away and, being 4hrs. away is always tough to try and coordinate something, yeah. MCALLISTER: Both busy. JONES: Yeah are families met for the first time this summer it was, I though it went pretty well. MCALLISTER: Yeah it went great. My ah, JONES: My mom was kind of quiet, kind of I thought. My Brother does, he always talks. He did a lot of talking. I kind of wanted him to shut up, but thats fine. You’ve met my brother before. Like before you met my whole family, you met my brother. Cuz he was running track and we went to one of his track meets in Grand Rapids. It was me, you, ted and Hilary. It was, never mind I won’t put that on tape. I was going to say it was the first time I farted in front of you. Hahahahaha. MCALLISTER: oh yeah, umm. JONES: It prolly caught it. Hahahaha Page 14 �VANBIESBROUCK: Probably. MCALLISTER: No it went, it went really good. I think we both were a little bit nervous for. I mean my side of the family with our history and then. Even, even with Dennis’ family, like his mom is pretty quiet and can be kind of, I don’t know, introverted I guess. VANBIESBROUCK: Like she knew how your family felt about it? MCALLISTER: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know that that was really a concern at that point. JONES: I don’t know, My mom is kind of, I, I don’t know. MCALLISTER: maybe. JONES: It could have been. I don’t know. I can say that my mom kind of does have a tendency not to forget things. That could have been it. But my dad he’s just naturally quiet so he wasn’t going to talk anyway, unless. MCALLISTER: He, he was talking. JONES: but yeah, yeah he was talking. I think he is more worried about if, His biggest thing is if people can understand him. He, He’s got a little bit of a slur. When he grew up, he had a slight speech impediment, and his brothers kind of had to translate for him alot. So he, he is very conscious of the way he talks and stuff like that. So my dad is a little more quiet unless he is over the pulpit which it should be reversed. Um and then my mom she is usually very outgoing. But she is very shy when she meets new people or is in a new setting and she is. First of all she is deathly terrified because she thought we were going to go out on a boat and she hates the water. And she was terrified that they had dogs, and she hates dogs. And I’m like you are ridiculous. Like my dad he doesn’t care about dogs, but my mom is “Oh my gosh they got dogs can you ask them to put them away”. I was like mom, you’re going to visit over to someone’s house are you going, Luckly, I know them well enough to where they would do this for us and I was like I’ll ask ‘em. And so for me I was like you have all these reservations and questions, ugh. I think they briefly met at my graduation, but it wasn’t like for an extended period of time. Everybody was kind of out in their own worlds. So. But. VANBIESBROUCK: Didn’t your mom say something that was.. MCALLISTER: oh yeah (Laughter) First of all, what did she get, yeah she got orange pop, I told her, she was asking what, well do they like to eat? What do they like to do? And I told them like, Dennis’ mom don’t do a lot of water sports, she’s afraid of the water. She doesn’t like dogs also, so we put the dogs away and all that stuff. And then she’s like what do they like to eat? Well, they eat a lot and they like just about anything but, I was saying a few things that I knew that they liked that we had before, and I was like they like grape drink. I know it’s a stereotype but they really do like it. So she went out and bought orange pop, she didn’t even buy the right thing. And then at dinner she was giving drinks to everybody she’s like “Christina told me that you guys like orange pop”. And I was so embarrassed... JONES: She said “you guys”. I was like aahh. Page 15 �MCALLISTER: I mean, no one was offended but it was funny. JONES: She is very hospitable and nice. And her mom just has a tendency just to say things, and that was just one of those things. That was pretty funny. I was just like “ooohh..’ (laughter) MCALLISTER: My niece and nephew loved Dennis’ mom. They were snuggled up to her for most of the night. JONES: Yeah, Cameron, he was just sleeping. Maddie had a ton and ton of stories for my mom. My mom didn’t understand a word she was saying probably. But... and then she was like “ooh this is the little baby you always talk about.” And I was like yeah, she’s adorable. My mom used to run a daycare so she really loves kids. VANBIESBROUCK: So after they met, did either one of your parents tell you “Oh, I was expecting it to go this way, but it was really great, or...” JONES: To tell you the truth I haven’t really talked to my parents. Or, I’ve talked to them since then, just haven’t asked my parents what they thought. My brother and my sister were like “Oh it was really great I loved it, it was really good to sit down and talk to them and get to know them a little better.” So my brother and my sister were excited and happy about it. I guess I should probably talk to my parents. I think it went good, in my opinion. I don’t know, maybe I’m overlooking stuff. But I thought it was good. Sounds like a business meeting. (laughter) MCALLISTER: Um, no, my parents were good. I think my mom was nervous about... She was nervous about having people over anyways... And I think she was nervous aboutJONES: “My house is a mess, oh my gosh!” MCALLISTER: -Yeah, I mean, impressing them, well not impressing them, but making them feel comfortable and welcome. like a hostess I guess. She’s like that with everybody. But I think because it was Dennis’ family she felt a little more pressure. So, I don’t know. I think it went really well though. My mom said “Oh Dennis’ family is so nice and it was so nice to spend time with them.” That’s pretty much what everyone in my family said. So she invited them back up for another time. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: -For more orange drink... (Laughter) MCALLISTER: Yeah for more orange drink, and for a ride on the lake. Page 16 �JONES: My dad would go, but my mom would just freak out. She’s like “we’re not going on the boat right?” I was like I told you three weeks ago that we’re not going on the boat. I don’t need to tell you again, If do i might take you on the boat just to scare the crap out of you. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So have you guys noticed that whenever you go out on a date or you go hang out with people have you noticed that people treat you different? Or do the people that you see in restaurants and stuff, they just don’t care? JONES: To me, in my perspective, I don’t know about Christina, but to me the people in west michigan... I don’t know, I guess it depends on the area, where you’re at. But most people it doesn’t seem like they really care. I don’t know we’ve never really received any snide remarks, I guess a couple of whoops from black girls. Like “what is he doing with her?” (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: They’re just jealous. JONES: I don’t know but when we’re out, I guess I never really pay attention to people. This is just who I am, I always keep my head down when i walk and i’ll put my head up when i see someone, kind of make eye contact. But, I don’t know. I always keep my head down or look at her when we’re out and walking and stuff like that. And then I think with society and the way we were raised and our generation, it’s normal. So I don’t think a lot of people care. VANBIESBROUCK: Yeah, so you expect it more from older people. JONES: But yeah now i think that even more older people are starting to say “Ahh, what the heck it’s no big deal.” I mean if I went down south I’d probably get lynched... (Laughter) No I’m just kidding, I’m kidding. That was a joke, totally too far, I know. VANBIESBROUCK: What about you Christina? Have you noticed... MCALLISTER: No, I don’t notice those things at all anyways. But , I definitely haven’t noticed anything like that. JONES: I don’t think we’ve ever received like a... VANBIESBROUCK: We’ve had a lot of people like, well, in church, Dennis is the only black guy in our church (laughs). And I was actually kind of nervous about that. Because. Not nervous that it would go badly but nervous that he would feel uncomfortable or awkward. But we had so many people come up to us and like “Hi, so nice to meet you” and whatever. And people who know Dennis now love him. We’re helping out in the youth group now. The leaders are all about him and the kids all love him, I think it’s cool he’s black. JONES: I think it’s funny, the youth retreat we went out on it this weekend. And I think just like being out towards Grand Haven/Spring Lake area there’s not a lot of black people. But all the kids were kinda Page 17 �telling jokes and I tell a black joke and they’re all like (gasp) and I’m like “no it’s okay, you can laugh!” And they’re like “okay!” (laughs) To me honestly I think it’s hilarious when people are really cautious about saying black or african american... I could really care less. I remember like for me, I don’t know why they see it as a challenge and they’re like “Oh yeah, let me go talk to him” (laughter). Like we were just at a wedding and the guy goes “yeah my grandma, she’s kind of racist.” And I go “really? Can I meet her? Like I want to talk to her.” And he’s like “sure but I don’t know...” I was like “I don’t care, I want to talk to her and just see what happens.” Like that’s just really, I guess I kind of see it as a challenge. And (laughs) I don’t know, that’s just kind of my attitude toward everything. Like I mean, to me it’s like I don’t see any reason to put skin color above a person. So, I don’t know. Ever since I’ve been growing up between me and my group of friends we’ve always got racial jokes and stuff like that. Not just about black people and stuff like that but about other races obviously it’s joking amongst friends and stuff like that (laughs). VANBIESBROUCK: So Christina you mentioned how your mom was saying how it would possibly affect your kids. Have you guys talked about that? Or do you think it would even be an issue in the years to come? MCALLISTER: Um, I mean we’ve talked about it, But I don’t think it will be a big issue. I think that the longer we’re together, the less that I see color in Dennis and the more I see just us in our relationship. And those fears just kind of fade away as we’re kind of bringing our lives together and as we’re deciding how we’re going to, as a couple, raise our kids. And i think that’s kind of everyone’s concern is just making sure that we raise them how we wanna raise them and not really worrying about race. Because if we bring them up right then it’s not even going to be an issue. So I guess that’s kind of... We make jokes about, “well what if they marry black kids? Or what if they marry white kids?” (laughs) But , I don’t think it would matter either way for us. JONES: No. I guess to me i kind of see that it is, nowadays, you always see mixed kids. I mean when I was growing up in public school I was always around a ton of mixed kids. you get the looks like “man why are your eyes green and your hair is kinda course like a black person?” (Laughter) Or like, those types of things you wonder. But growing up around it and , seeing it more prevalent, in Hollywood and more now around our age, and once we’re starting to recognize the differences in people... It doesn’t really dawn on me what will my kids think. To me, they’ll fit in just fine. MCALLISTER: People have talked about as mixed kids, do you identify with the black culture or the white culture? I think the cultures are mixing in together a little bit more. And I think our focus is just going to be on raising them in I guess a culoture that we feel is healthy and right and appropriate. And hopefully they won’t identify with... Hopefully they’ll be chameleons like Dennis. That they’ll feel comfortable around anyone and everyone. that they won’t see that. They will just see people. JONES: I think more or less, once you stop focusing on skin color you kind of forget. “Oh yeah I forgot you were black. Or I forgot you were Mexican.” (Laughs) I remember in high school our coach was black but he is married to a white woman and one day we had this huge team sleep over, kind of like a team building thing. And we were going through their house and we were like “Oh yeah,” Like we saw a picture of our coach, our coach was black, and we saw a Page 18 �picture of him and his family and they were all like “Oh, yeah” It was one of those things that dawns on me like it’s one of those things where you really see a person for a person, and not skin color. You really do forget, to me I forget, and I’m like “oh yeah that is right, they really are different than I am.” Skin color-wise. MCALLISTER: I’m a little worried about our kids’ hair. JONES: Yeah she’s always like “You’re gonna have to do their hair, ‘cause I don’t know how to do it.” Like if it’s a boy it’s alright ‘cause I know how to cut hair. I’ll cut his hair right off. MCALLISTER: That’s our biggest concern right now. VANBIESBROUCK: Is hair? (Laughter) JONES: Yeah, I’ll have to teach her the ropes if they come out with coarse hair like black people. I’ll show her how to do it. If they come out with white people hair that’s totally up her alley. MCALLISTER: The poor girls are gonnna be hopeless. JONES: Ah no, my cousins came out with good hair, with white people hair. I don’t know why we say white people or black people hair. fine hair. Non-coarse hair. There ain’t nothing wrong with my hair! (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So do you guys have anything that you would want to say to someone who was against interracial relationships? Or is it kind of like you have to be in one to really understand? JONES: Hmm.. Give it a try. No I’m just kidding. (Laughter) No I guess coming from, I mean I’ve had my times were skin color is an issue and I’ve seen both sides where people accept you and people reject you. And I think my biggest thing is , it may sound kind of cliché, but it was so long ago. like give it up. If all you see is color then you’re just, in my book, just kind of lost. Of course that’s how society is raised, that’s how society sees people, as their skin color. It’s stereotypes. But if you don’t get to know the person then you’re doing yourself a big disservice basically by judging a book by it’s cover. If Christina had never talked to me, she’s never been around black people, she’s probably just like he’s another one of those ghetto people just trying to chase basketball dreams (laughs). But not me! I was ready to give up basketball for crying aloud. But , it’s just one of those things where I think to me, this is how I see it. You’re not doing anything to me, you’re just doing more harm to yourself by harboring that hatred and harboring those feelings. To me, I’m fine. You can look at me all day and say “Oh my gosh blah blah” it’s not doing anything to me. It’s hurting you more than me. MCALLISTER: I don’t know, I guess with me it’s the same kind of thing. I haven’t had to deal with any of that kind of stuff my whole life so I guess it’s not something I’ve been real passionate about. Haven’t had a lot of personal experience, just in this relationship and with our families a little bit. I can say that when my parents were having a hard time with it I told them that they just need to get to know Dennis. I said Page 19 �“to me, this is worth whatever problems we might have because of this. This relationship is worth it. that’s all. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44cabebbd26511771c337b16da8e3465.mp3 c0c1ce94fa97fa75a004fc24da4c4e7e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McAllister_Christina Title A name given to the resource Christina McAllister audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McAllister, Christina Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Matro, Philip Brunner, Douglas Vanbiesbrouck Description An account of the resource Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/738c229cd7fe58605a44c020a60a18b7.pdf 94b51d5bdaa6bce0360e7a27754c9c44 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Mirta McGee Interviewers: Christina McGee Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/22/2011 Biography and Description Mirta McGee was born in Cuba and raised in the United States. She is currently an elementary school Spanish teacher. She discusses balancing Cuban culture with American culture, discrimination based on language barriers, and the differences between when she was growing up and her students now. Transcript CHRISTINA: Could you please introduce yourself and tell me a little about yourself? MIRTA: My name is Mirta Maria McGee. I was born on February 9th, 1960 in Cienfuegos, Cuba. My parents were Eduardo and Mirta Irueta and I have one sister, Concepcion Irueta and goes by the name of Connie. I am married and have three children. My oldest is Christina at nineteen years old, Nicholas at seventeen years old, and Caitlin who is fourteen years old. CHRISTINA: And where did you do all your schooling? MIRTA: I graduated from the University of Michigan with a BA in education and then I went back to get my Masters in Education at U of M. I also vent to the University of New Rochelle in New York to get my Montessori training for six to nine year olds, and that’s kind of like first, second and third grade, you teach all three grades in the same classroom. And currently I’m getting my Spanish endorsement from Wayne State for grades 12 through... I mean I’m sorry kindergarten through 8th grade CHRISTINA: And what are you doing now? MIRTA: Right now i’m teaching Spanish to grades third, fourth and fifth. CHRISTINA: Explain coming from Cuba to America. Or if you don’t really remember that how was it from living in Florida to Detroit, how was the transitions? MIRTA: Well I left Cuba when I was 2, and we lived in Florida for about nine months so I turned three in Miami and then we moved to Detroit. So I don’t really remember anything from Miami or Cuba because I was too young. But 1 do remember the different houses we lived in when we moved to Detroit. We lived in one neighborhood that was near All Saints. My sister who is seven years older than me went to Page 1 �AU Saints. And then we moved to another neighborhood where we were closer to Saint Gabes and that’s where I went to school. All my schooling from first through to high school was catholic schools, they were private. So one school was first through eighth and then 1 went to Holy Redeemer for ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth grade. CHRISTINA: And how were the Catholic schools, how was that compared to what you see now in the public schools? MIRTA: Well it was more disciplined, they were stricter. We... I loved the uniform. I wish more schools had uniform. But it was more restrictive, you had certain things you had to do or you couldn’t do. We had religion every day. There was more of a sense I think sometimes of family than there is now. There were the priests involved in your training. All the Nuns that we had, because being a parochial school a lot of nuns did the teaching, now a day you hardly see nuns. There are so few of them around. My neighborhood was very diverse so we had lots of nationalities living together, learning about each other’s nationalities. CHRISTINA: Were they mostly catholic or was it all different types of religions? MIRTA: No all different types of religions. A lot of the kids I hung out with where Catholic only because we all went to the same school so you usually stick to the friends you go to school with but when we were in middle school and high school and a lot of us worked in the neighborhood tasty freeze. And there, there were all kinds of people. Kids who went to the public school, as well as kids who went to the parochial schools so there were a lot of different religions we were hanging out with at the time. CHRISTINA: So I know you described what it was like growing up but do you have any distinct memories? How was it growing up in the sense that you weren’t necessarily born in this country? And of course people would hear about that and... MIRTA: Well. . we... My parents still followed all the Cuban traditions but then we tried to follow along some of the newer American traditions. We as Cubans don’t celebrate Christmas Day we celebrate Christmas Eve. We still stuck to the Christmas Eve going to church on Christmas Eve and celebrating it after that. Then St. Valentine’s day that wasn’t really a big holiday for us. Halloween wasn’t a really big holiday but because all my friends were doing the Halloween and the trick or treating but so it was a meshing of cultures. Of our culture that we didn’t want to lose sight of and the new host culture of the country we were now living in. CHRISTINA: So did your parents feel that because you were in a new country but obviously you guys stuck to what your customs were but did they change it more because of you or just to fit in? MIRTA: I think it was a little bit of both, to fit in and to make me feel like I was a part of it. And more comfortable if all my friends were doing something and I won’t have been doing it then maybe I would’ve been more left out. More than anything it was more in stuff like holidays or stuff like that. There were still stuff that they... I wasn’t allowed to say like sleepover at friend’s house because my parents didn’t know; they basically didn’t know other parents. And since they didn’t know them, they didn’t feel comfortable with me spending the night over there. I mean I could still go over to friend’s Page 2 �houses, they could come to my house but we didn’t do that whole sleeping over routine and things like that. CHRISTINA: I see, and can you ever remember when you were in school or a time when you had difficulty or you were made fun of or you personally or your sister personally discriminated against? How did you respond to that? MIRTA: Well there were kids that would tease you and call you... . all they knew about Cuba was Castro so they would call you mini Castro or stuff like that. We would get the, since our culture we kinda as babies get our ear pierced. So we had our ear’s pierced and our earrings, and we would kinda get... it was kind of a new thing that Americans were not used to seeing. So we were made fun of for that saying we were barbarians because we had holes in our ears. And being a prochial school we always had a uniform but once a month we had a free day let’s say that you could wear whatever you wanted like a causal day. So naturally all the kids would wear jeans but Cubans don’t wear jeans because Cuba’s a hot tropical island and jeans would only make you hotter. So we wore cotton dresses, cotton skirts, linen, and things like that. So if we wore something like that for casual day then that was also another way for us to be standing out and being made fun of saying that we were freakish because we weren’t dressing like the norm. MIRTA: So how did that make you guys feel? Did it make you guys feel like you weren’t fitting in or was it just like kids will be kids. Or was it different because you were not... CHRISTINA: Well I guess it was a little bit of both. I’m sure there was sometimes when you thought about kids just being kids but other times it kind of upset us because... I guess we felt like we weren’t, our feelings weren’t being taken into consideration, because it was almost like as long as there was something different about you then its ok to make fun of. I guess we were used to other cultures, it wasn’t,.. I mean we didn’t feelthe same way. And our high school there was a huge melting pot of different nationalities. We had the Muslims, we had a big group of Hispanics because there were Mexicans and the Puerto Ricans so there was that big community. And Holy Redeemer is in a Hispanic neighborhood so there was that group and we had a huge group of Arabic people. So they were all doing their thing but I think that on the whole that everyone got along. Everyone kinda realized there were different religions and then at our high school we also had to take religion courses which were world religion that kind of gave you the, taught you all different kind of religions. We looked into the Muslims, the Jewish andwe had field trips where we visited the synagogue and different churches. So I think that also gave us an awareness of other people, their beliefs and their customs so I didn’t feel that, at least during my high school years that people kinda made fun of you. I think by the time we go there, there was so many different cultures all trying to get along that it was a lot easier. I think that in elementary school we kind of stuck out as being different. So it was a little more difficult plus we were new to this country so it was getting used to all that and being made fun of But as we got older and you’re kind of thrown in with a lot more different groups that then you kind of learn to get along better. CHRISTINA: So you feel like once you guys all grew up and you went to school generally with the same people? Page 3 �MIRTA: Yes for like 12 years. CHRISTINA: You all got to know each other and it was bad at first but then it slowly just everyone understood each other got along. And you were more open to cause usually the grades are smaller when you are in elementary and middle school and once you get into high school everything opens up and everything opens up and they realize that its different MIRTA: Yeah and I guess that would probably be, in my case that it probably helped a lot that Holy Redeen er is in or close to Mexican town. So there was a lot of Spanish speaking people, there were a lot of Spanish speaking shops around, bakeries so it kinda it made it easier I would say. Holy Redeemer had a Spanish mass; it had a huge group of Spanish speaking members so… CHRISTINA: It made it easier MIRTA: It made it a lot easier, but even so with any fights that ever broke out in our high school was never between different racial groups. it was always like you know just over silly dumb things but between friends and between groups but it was never raciall motivated. CHRISTINA: Ok, so was there ever like family, how did your parents respond? Because they had been living in Cuba obviously for a long period of time, so the transition would’ve been probably a culture shock, a lot different coming from Cuba to America. MIRTA: Yes I will have to say I always felt that I had to give my parents a lot of credit that leaving when they were... My dad was in his 40’s when he left Cuba to start in a new country, a new job, basically a new language because they took English in Cuba but as anything when you learn the language and then you are immersed in it, to speak it it’s a bit different. When they first came here they had to get used to the language because everybody, in any language they speak faster than when you learn it. When you learn a language everything is ‘how are you”, and no one speaks like that. So a lot of the slang and stuff they had, they didn’t know, and they had to pick up and so it was difficult for them. Beside that, also picking up and starting in a country whose culture is completely different, The climate is completely different. Michigan with its cold and its snow is a drastic change from Cuba which is tropical and warm all year round. And so that was a big transition for them. They left all their family, their friends and all heir possessions. All their keepsakes and pictures and photo albums, everything, to start all over and try to make a better live for themselves. So I think they would’ve had a harder time because my mom had been a teacher in Cuba but her degree was recognized to a point but she had to go back to school to get an endorsement so she could teach Spanish and she almost had to get another degree so she could be able to teach here. So that was also an adjustment, having to go back to school and start all over as well as learn every CHRISTINA: Everything that about America MIRTA: Right CHRISTINA: Where they discriminated against? Did they ever get the rude comments and the... Page 4 �MIRTA: I do remember every once and a while. I remember one day we had just come back from church and we were on our way back home and we stopped at one of those corner mom and pop type stores to get some milk and bread or something like that, to pick up something. We were leaving the store talking amongst ourselves in Spanish and a little old lady stopped us and started yelling at my dad, saying that now that we were in America we should speak English and not any other language. And I remember my dad getting mad and it was a little polish lady. I remember my dad telling her “I’m sure when you go home you speak in polish and nobody is telling you what to do.” My dad felt strongly that just because we were here didn’t mean that we didn’t have to our culture and our language. And the only way we would kept that is if we kept speaking it, and he didn’t want my sister and I to forget the language to forget our nationality and all our traditions. So we still spoke in Spanish, that’s not to say that we didn’t speak in English too but he didn’t want us to forget that. So we did that at home, and that’s how he would make sure I spoke in Spanish so I won’t lose it. So that kinda upset me because I guess, I would hear Arabic being spoken by this family, I would hear Italian by this one, Polish by this one. And to me that never really bothered me, I always thought that it was neat that other people and their language and their customs and their traditions. So I guess I never really understood why somebody would be offended by that but I guess it’s their own I think that when people hear you speak in another language it’s that narcissistic tendency to think that they think you are talking about them. The whole world revolves around them, no we are not always talking about you. It isn’t about them. We are talking about whatever we want to talk about but since they don’t know what you’re saying they assume that you are saying something about them. CHRISTINA: So they didn’t have as much as a problem you would say because you were immersed in the schooling and you were... MIRTA: We still had, I do recall my mom maybe because she spoke more English because she was teaching and she still had an accent, but my dad’s accent was stronger than my moms, and basically it’s because if he didn’t always have to speak it he spoke more of the Spanish. My, not that he didn’t understand you, he understood the English and he spoke it but he didn’t speak it as often as my mom. So I remember going into Sears, and we were buying some kind of appliance, I don’t remember what, but I remember my dad going in there and right off the bat saying excuse me, something about a strong accent or his English was not as good. 1 remember the salesman gushing all over ahhh no you speak perfect English. Which you kinda knew it was a big lie because it wasn’t perfect English you know it wasn’t bad English but it wasn’t perfect English. So he was just buttering him up so he could get his commission and his sale, And he would just go on and ooze about how wonderful my dad’s English was and blah b!ah blah. And then I remember we purchased something and it was a big ticket item and we brought it home. Something happened and it wasn’t working and we had to have a repair or something. I remember going back with my dad and the salesman going “what? I don’t understand you. What do you want? I don’t understand a thing you are saying.” I remember my dad looking at him saying “funny when I came in here to purchase it my English couldn’t have been better but now that there is a problem with something you claim to not understand me.” So I did notice the instances like that, where there would be, their nationality or their English would come into play and then they were treated differently. Also because my dad had the thicker accent people would always assume, because you had the have an accent for some reason you are lacking in intelligence. Or that you’re deaf, so they scream Page 5 �when they talk to you. I’m not deaf I have an accent. I always look at it as no I would think that if you know two or three languages you are a heck of a lot more intelligent than one who only speaks one. So instead of talking down you should try to listen to what they are saying and not treat them like they are ignorant. That I always found to be pretty annoying hut then I think I when I.,. The first job I ever had was working at the Tasty Freeze and the couple who ran it were German. So I was always exposed to them talking to each other in German and I got used to listening to accents. Like my parents had their accent, they had their accent, my best friend was Maltese and I always went over there and I would always like to listen to her mom and dad talking Maltese and so there was all different languages that I was exposed too growing up. CHRISTINA: I see. Now you live in a predominantly white community, would you say that it’s been different than where you grew up, where you were surrounded by so many Hispanics? I mean now you are older and it’s different and times have changed do you think there is a difference? MIRTA: Yes I would, because I think this community (as wonderful as I like where I live) I see where, umm, people are not used to anyone who is different than them. I see how they look kind of differently on the Asians, Indians, Hispanic, and I don’t think they quite know how to deal with them because they haven’t had to. This is a really small community with one high school, two elementary schools, and one middle school, and they really haven’t had to deal with a lot of diversity and I don’t think they know how to deal with it. You hear the adults, you hear the kids becauseobviously they’ve been exposed to it with there parents how they don’t go into the city, because of the crime, they’re afraid to go into the museum, and its really kind of sad because they separate themselves like that. It’s like they’re only comfortablebeing with there “own kind” and frankly I kind of think my childhood was better being exposed to all kinds of people, because there you learn from each other, you learn from their traditions and culture. You learn how to get along as opposed to being strictly with all, lets say white Anglo Saxons and then its like there not used to dealing with anybody else, and if anyone’s just a little bit different they don’t know what to make of it CHRISTINA: Right and I know going to school in the community, if there was one black kid everyone knew who he was and everyone know everything about him just because he was the only one. I mean I never really experienced anyone being discriminated against or racially profiled. You have your Middle Eastern kids that would make jokes about themselves. They would call themselves “the brown kids.” They would joke and talk about themselves. You being a teacher have you seen any bullying or comments being made or anything in the younger grades? MIRTA: No. I would have to think about that but I haven’t really umm what I do whenteach, I mean I, I not only teach them the language, I try to teach them about the culture, because unfortunately when they hear, ok where going to learn Spanish and we talk about Spanish, they unfortunately think the only other country that speaks Spanish is Mexico and they don’t have a clue that there are tons, there is Puerto Rico, South America, Central America, there is the Caribbean, and so I try to open their eyes so they are more culturally aware. So maybe each month we do a country. One month we do Spain, and we learn about what life is like in Spain. What is there music like, what is there dance like? So I show them the flamingo, and what that music is and how it came about and the dancing and how it’s similar. And we do Mexico, and we learn about the mariachi and how it came about. Then we can go and learn about Page 6 �Argentina and the tango, and their culture because you want them to be culturally aware and know that there is a whole world out there and there are different traditions. You know we talk about the DIa de los Muertos and how did that came about. And typically, a lot of our traditions, are Hispanic traditions, come from Roman Catholic faith, because the majority are catholic. I’m not saying every Hispanic is, but the major religion in Spain is Catholicism, the major religion in Cuba is Catholicism and in Mexico. So a lot of these traditions where based on the church. So El DIa de los Muertos was to honor the dead, we didn’t do Halloween, we did that. So during Christmas we do the Posadas, which is the re-enactment of Christ going from inn to inn, not Christ, I should say Mary and Joseph looking for a place to stay and finally finding it at the stable. So all of these are religious holidays. So I try to tell them, this is how this culture celebrates these things because they are all religion based. CHRISTINA: So you’re saying kids now a day are more sheltered than they were in the past. How you were raised and everything, you are culturally aware. You had all the different ethnicities and languages around you. I know you had some white friends, and obviously they were more culturally aware. You see kids now a day and they’re telling you they only think Spanish comes from Mexico, would you say kids are more sheltered now than they were before and they don’t know what’s going on and they are more ignorant if you will, and the parents are to blame because they don’t want their kids to be? MIRTA: I don’t know if they don’t want or if they don’t feel comfortable with or they don’t know enough about. Which is surprising when you think about all the technology out there; you’ve got YouTube and all the different things in the computer, you would think the world opens up more for you now because of all that. I guess to a degree, with the music, they can be more aware. You have your different Hispanic groups and they are opening up and crossing over to the American scene and are more pop. So that kind of teaches them. We had Gloria Estefan and theMiami Sound Machine, which really opened up the Cuban music and brought it to the American scene, and now we have Pitbull doing his rap and that kind of also makes them more aware. So I guess in a way that helps a little bit but otherwise people kind of didn’t know what was going on, so I guess it depends. If you haveparents that are making these kids more aware and are teaching them about thisand are taking them places, if they only stay in their little community and only go to the same kind of places then they aren’t going to know any better. We have a family in my school, they go to Coasta Rica every year for spring break. And so now the kids just love it and they say “we can practice our Spanish there” and they have come back with so many souvenirs that I told the mom who is always bringing me stuff, and I said great because one of my months we are doing a unit on Coasta Rica. And so that also gives them another sense of what’s out there, how people live and what they do. CHRISTINA: And do you think that class has anything do with it? Like social class and the income that people make. Is higher class or lower class more or less aware? MIRTA: Well I suppose class will have something to do with it. If you are better off and you have the funds to be able to travel and you do travel. I mean you may have the money to travel but you never leave and never go anywhere and then of course that doesn’t help. But these people that are traveling and seeing the world that opens up their horizons and opens up their ideas so that they are able to communicate with people and see the differences and if you never leave your back yard then you don’t know what’s out there and you can’t really relate to people because it only what you know and a lot of Page 7 �times what you don’t know and what people don’t know scares them and therefore they shy away from it or sometimes people make fun of what they don’t understand or don’t know. CHRISTINA: Do you see any changes being made in your community in regards to the minority groups that are here? Or are they accommodating them better? MIRTA: Well I think, you made that reference to them calling themselves “the brown group”. I think as the kids have become more outspoken, which is a good thing, they feel more comfortable about themselves that they can be outspoken. That kind of brings the attention to themselves but in a humorous way. They are talking about themselves... CHRISTINA: But not taking themselves to seriously? MIRTA: Yeah, and so that other people can see them. Instead of them fading into the wood work because they don’t want any attention brought to them because they don’t want to be made fun off or they don’t want to be whatever the reason may be. By them pushing themselves in the fore front, they’re trying to make a stand that, “Yeah we are different in these ways, but in other ways we are the same as you”. I do think though that sometimes people mistake when you say something, I don’t want to say criticism, but people get offended if you say something that you do not like about this country or something in that f... as soon as they know that your not from this country they take offense. When really every body has their opinion. I mean, no country, no place that you live can be totally perfect. So there is always something, o this is great but you if you could improve this it would be even better. Its healthy criticism. And I think sometimes people take offense when you say something like that, because right away they want to say “well you don’t have a right to criticize, you shouldn’t say anything.” They might have thought the same thing but they don’t want to hear you say it. I remember when I was in school my sister was in high school and they had a civic project. The class project was that they had to write about/find something that they did not like about Detroit. What problem Detroit had and what they could do to fix it, and Connie wrote about the pollution in Detroit, meaning pollution of the garbage and how the streets were littered and what they should do and how they should clean them up etc. I remember it was an evening andthe principal and the pastor of our school knocked on the door and the principal basically told my sister if she was so unhappy with Detroit and if she thought it was so dirty or had so many problems then maybe we should go back to where we came from. Because if we were criticizing it, then clearly that meant we weren’t happy here and we shouldn’t be here. And first of all I found that to be really rude andoffensive because my dad said to the principal “and are you going to everyone’s house that wrote that paper because that was the class assignment, to find a problem and talk about it and how you would correct it.” And surely they didn’t go to everyone’s house they only went to our house because we were Cuban and not America so we had no right, according to them, to criticize this country. And I just found that to be first of all, in bad taste. You were supposed to be religious people, and that was intolerant and it showed their intolerance. And second of all, if you didn’t want anyone criticizing you country, you shouldn’t have made that assignment, that what the assignment was, so in that case I thought that was a definite case of discrimination, they didn’t like what we had said so they came. CHRISTINA: And they personally picked you out? Page 8 �MIRTA: Yeah CHRISTINA: Is America what you would expect it to be? I know you don’t remember when you came here, but is the image of America, you know, you’re told the melting pot, everyone is mixed together, it is the land of the free, home of the brave, there is opportunity and jobs. Is that what you see it to be? What they tell foreigners is the image of America that what you see it to be? MIRTA: Yes. I believe that you can come to this country and make something of yourself. There is people that leave for religious persecution, people that leave because of the government, which was the case for us. We left a year after Castro took over, because my dad had already been following closely enough to know that he was steering toward communism and he knew it would only get worse. It was bad when we left but it only went down hill from there and he didn’t want his children raised in that environment so he chose to leave and try to make a better home and a better life in a new country and that’s what he in turn did. I do think that other nationalities and other groups of people can be very successful. For instance, there’s different kinds of communities that have come up and have become very successful. If I talk about the Cuban community, the Cubans made Miami what it is today. Miami was a little city no one knew anything about. Older people went there to retire and that was the extent of that. Cubans are the third highest minority in education and social economic status. Turning Miami into a Little Havana and opening up all of their little shops and businesses. They have a Cuban mayor and a Cuban governor. That pushed the city to become famous in all the things that it did. You had Miami Beach that was just strictly a beach that people went to and then what did they do? They turned it into a little jazz area, with little shops, and different Cuban establishments, so yeah, they became very successful and to them that was the American dream. They became successful and they still had part of their culture and they also became Americanized and used part of the American culture but they made that successful and made it there own and they started that whole Calle Ocho, which is 8th street, their little festival. And it started out as a little festival, and as it got bigger and bigger the recruited big names in the jazz community, in the rock and roll community. The Cuban stars as well as other stars and made a name for themselves and kind of opened it up to the world to say “hey, this is who we are and this is what we are about, to learn about it.” It’s a free concert, yeah people go around and buy food and souvenirs, but you got all these big time musicians that they would bring in that were, whether they were jazz or singers, whatever they were that were big names kind of taught a little bit about there culture to the rest of the world. CHRISTINA: So you would say that the American dream is obtainable to those that are not American. It is a possibility; it’s not just something that the Americans just throw out there to get you to come over? MIRTA: No it takes a lot of hard work and it takes dedication and you can’t have the mentality of “you owe me this” and getting free handouts. You know a lot of these people started out small with low paying jobs and they just kept working and earning trying to get to the next best job and just kept working at it until they made it a success. I’m sure it was a lot of hard work, but it was like anything a lot of them went to school and just new that the more education they got the better it would be for them. Page 9 �CHRISTINA: Would you say that when immigrants come to America they take on a new identity, new cultural beliefs, just the way they do things? I know you mixed you Cuban tradition with the American tradition, but do you think that they try to change or do they want to preserve their culture? MIRTA: I guess it depends when they came over and what their feelings are. Depending on the generation, there was the generation of the Italians who came here and were given a lot of problems and so they didn’t speak Italian. I had a lot of friends, depending on when they came; their parents wouldn’t speak to them in Italian so therefore they never learned the language. The parents spoke the Italian but they didn’t want there kids to learn it because now they were in America they had to learn English and they wanted to blend in and didn’t want to stand out because they were made fun of and given a lot of grief because they were a different nationality. And while I understand that and sympathize with that, I think that is really sad because then you are losing a vital part of who you are and those traditions and those beliefs and that language is what your made of. It forms your basis, and to deny that and to forget about that your kind of inhibiting your future, and your children because their losing that richness. They’re not being exposed to the language. They’re not being exposed to that wealth of tradition and culture that there parents where, and it’s wonderful to have these traditions to be passed down form the grandparent, and great grandparent, and this is what we do and believe. Kids love that kind of stuff. Kids love to know the kind of things you did when you were a kid. I think your short changing you children if you just think that because you’re here, you have to be so Americanized. When you think about it, there really is no true American. The only true American is the Native American Indian because everyone from this country came from a different country, like Ireland and Germany. So there are all these different cultures and nationalities here that are blending and I think it makes it richer when you can learn about all these different cultures. “0 wow this is what we did when we were growing up. What did you do?” I just think it makes you a more well-rounded person. CHRISTINA: Would you say minority groups are becoming more outspoken, and they are not just going to conform to what everyone’s doing? They aren’t going to be forcing it down people’s throats but in general, they want to preserve their culture. MIRTA: I would say so because I think now we have so many and there are so many cultures and so many different churches and have festivals, and downtown they still have festivals, like in Hart Plaza they would have different festivals. People go down there and see the Polish festival and Arabic festivals, and I think you learn about their food you learn about their beliefs. I think that opens up a whole new world and I think therefore because of that, I do believe people are more outspoken. Of course we have our times that there were some difficulties like after the terrorist attacks. I felt bad because Arabic people were being singled out because they were suspicious because they could be a terrorist which is not fair for them as a whole because you have a few bad apples that are ruining it for the rest and so anytime there was anybody that looked Arabic then “oh my god lets look at them closely because they might be a terrorist.” And it’s a shame that its come to that, but as well as I understand it, sometimes that’s when people are scared, and we had the same things when there was the bombing of Hiroshima and all of that. We were leery of the Japanese, depending on what happens we have those times that I guess a certain minority group does gets singled out for being untrustworthy and suspicious and I guess to an extent that will always happen I guess, depending on the circumstances. Page 10 �CHRISTINA: So if there is one thing that you could change about how people view you or just minority groups in general, what would you like to see happen? MIRTA: I guess people should be more open minded, be willing to learn new things, be exposed top new ideas. I remember when I was in 8th grade, and we were learning the metric system, one of the 8tI grade students, was complaining, “why do we have to learn the metric system why don’t they learn our system”, and I remember telling him “the majority of the world knows the metric system, we are one of the only countries that doesn’t” and why do we have to learn a new language why don’t they just learn English. When you think about it, most countries, besides aside from the United States, they know their language and they know sometimes two and 3 others. They learn English and sometimes a third and fourth language. I found that to be a really close minded mentality, that the world revolves around me. We are super power therefore why should we have to do that? But as a super power, then we should be able to know more languages, be more tolerant, and sometimes I think we are less tolerant. So I think that if they could learn from that that then it would make them stronger and better, and because of that they would be more well rounded and more tolerant and they would be able to get along better with others. END OF INTERVIEW Page 11 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/99419e270d9df04fa39e80fa539e2b85.mp3 3ab50447ba16bfb65313ee95303a4f16 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McGee_Mirta Title A name given to the resource Mirta McGee audio interview and Transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McGee, Mirta Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGee, Christina Description An account of the resource Mirta McGee was born in Cuba and raised in the United States. She is currently an elementary school Spanish teacher. She discusses balancing Cuban culture with American culture, discrimination based on language barriers, and the differences between when she was growing up and her students now. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives