2 24 44 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e39f44916cb267a4b197696c6996dcd5.pdf 21e356d985b46dc53b436cea0d00ae82 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Mark Connorton Interviewers: Brandon Gummere, Tyler Helinski, Joseph Rocco and Julio Ortega Vasquez Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/24/2012 Biography and Description Mark Connorton is a mathematics major at Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He discusses his alcohol and drug addiction issue and how it affected his relationship with his parents. Transcript GUMMERE: My name is Brandon, and I am here today, February 24th, 2012, with Mark at Grand Rapids Michigan. We are here today to talk about your experiences with civil rights in Western Michigan. Could you please some basic information about yourself? Your full name, date, and place of birth? CONNORTON: Okay, my name is Mark Connerton the date today, is that what’s part of it?, It’s the 24th right? GUMMERE: Yes. CONNORTON: And 24th of February, 2011, 2012 actually, and I was born in Ham Lake Minnesota. And I live here now at 16 Jefferson, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. GUMMERE: Okay, and how old are you? CONNORTON: I’m 22 GUMMERE: Alright do you, what are your parents names, and do you have siblings? CONNORTON: Yeah my parent’s names are John and Mary Connerton, respectively, and I have an older sister. She’s the oldest of the four of us she’s 27. I have an older brother, he’s 25. And I have a younger brother, he is, he’s now 20. So my little brother’s name is Pat, my older brother’s name is Tim, and my older sister’s name is Amber. GUMMERE: Okay, and do you have a girlfriend slash wife? CONNORTON: I have a girlfriend, her name’s Sarah Allen and she lives here in Grand Rapids GUMMERE: Alright do you attend college? Page 1 �CONNORTON: Yeah, I go to Aquinas College in Grand Rapids. That’s where I met my girlfriend Sarah. GUMMERE: Okay, do you have any religious affiliation? CONNORTON: I grew up, my parents, they’re Pentecostal, Protestant Christians. I guess I’d affiliate myself with the Episcopalian Church ‘cause that’s where my girlfriend and I go to church here in Grand Rapids. She’s Catholic, I’m not, but we both find kind of what we about religion in in the Episcopal Church. GUMMERE: Okay. when did you come to western Michigan? CONNORTON: Let’s see, I came here it was the fall of 2007 after I graduated from high school. I came here from from Pittsburg, where I spent the summer with my sister after graduation. so I came to Aquinas in the fall of ’07 to start college. GUMMERE: Okay, how would you describe your own identity? CONNORTON: My own identity. Okay so my name is Mark. I guess my identity would be how other people, see me. What I do, I’m a student. I’m average performance academically. I do really try to get the most out of my classes. I guess I’m pretty open minded, if you ask me to talk about something I care about what you think too. I try to keep that in daily conversations, even. I’m a musician, I love music. I have faith in God. I think that I am alive and that and because of his work in my life. And, I also I love my family. I consider them seriously , a part of my identity, and. I’m dedicated to my girlfriend too. So that’s basically my life. And I have a good work ethic, wherever I’m working, I try to work as hard as I can. GUMMERE: Okay. What are your, career aspirations, and, I guess what is your, what is your major now, what course study are you taking? CONNORTON: I’m a mathematics major at Aquinas. I’m gonna be graduating at the end of this semester, hopefully. (Chuckle) And, I, previously declared a math major just ‘cause I love the subject. I feel academically, it’s it’s really the most important thing to know just because it’s a basic form of knowledge that hasn’t changed throughout the years. When when there’s new math introduced, it doesn’t change the old stuff, it just adds onto it, and even in the hard sciences that’s not the case. Sometimes, they have to make modifications, but that’s still useful, so even though it’s academically right, I feel just because it’s been around, and it’s just solid knowledge. as far as marketability, it’s not there’s only so much you can do with just math. But you can teach it, and if you’re really good at math you can be an actuary, which I’ve looked into. And, I really, I really don’t think I for the amount of time I’d have to put into it, I wouldn’t enjoy it very much because I’m not naturally good at, math that involves heavy calculation. I’m more of a theoretical mathematician, I to work with theorems and proofs. GUMMERE: Okay CONNORTON: And so even with that, there’s kind of a limited there’s a limited market for that. So last semester I declared a, a computer networking minor. And, that’s what I plan to go into. and my background in math is gonna help me with, a lot of the the programming aspect of what goes into networking and developing and programming software for servers and stuff. but I think that’s what’s Page 2 �gonna make me marketable is my math major, not just my my knowledge of the of the field of computers and stuff. So I’m excited to go into that. GUMMERE: Okay to kind of switch gears a little bit, I know you personally, obviously. I met Mark through alcoholics anonymous slash our therapist. So we have some things in common there. But basically how would you, how would you describe your experiences with drugs and alcohol? CONNORTON: That’s it? GUMMERE: That’s the question. CONNORTON: Okay so, it’s a lot. I’ve had a lot of experiences with drugs and alcohol. But would you to me to historically, start from the beginning or just in general? GUMMERE: So I guess we’ll start out, when was your, when was your first experience with drugs and alcohol? CONNORTON: Okay so my first experience with drugs, is kind of typical American kid what their experience with drugs would be. now a days. I guess not so typical because I never I never wanted to do drugs to be cool the first time I did drugs was, I think I had smoked cigarettes once. You know? And that was with my friends just the kind of be cool and hang out. But, I didn’t really care for it, but the first time I actually did drugs, to feel good, was by myself, I remember I was mad at my parents, and my parents were kind of strict growing up. But, they wouldn’t let me go and do stuff sometimes, my friends, the wouldn’t let me hang out, it pissed me off, but. Sorry, I have to try to watch my language. (Laughs) GUMMERE: You’re fine. (Laughs) CONNORTON: But I remember one time, I I was hanging out with my friends, after school, and my parents called me and told me, that “you gotta come home now and you have to come home now!”, and I didn’t want to, I was hanging out with these girls, I was having a good time, and I wasn’t doing drugs or anything, so I didn’t want to but they made me come home, and it irritated me, really badly, ‘cause I didn’t have much, many friends in high school, but I wanted to. But, so it’s what I did, that was my way to kind of vent, I decided I’m gonna go find some pot, I’m gonna go smoke pot, and I didn’t know anything about drugs I didn’t have any close friends, who smoked pot, I didn’t have people who were all into it. So I just went to the kid in my neighborhood who I knew was the pot guy he was, he sold drugs, I just knew it. And very innocently I just walked up to his house and I was “hey man I wanna buy some pot”, and he was obviously very kind of intimidated a little bit taken back, because he knows I’m a good kid, and obviously he’s suspicious, so. But, he ended up telling me come back the next day or whatever, and, he started selling me pot, and I didn’t know this at the time but, I was actually getting a pretty good deal with these guys they were, they were pretty rich kids and they had a very good connection. And they had a house in Costa Rica, and the found a way to smuggle this pot back and they were making really good money. And because I was their neighbor, and I was kind of innocent, they gave me very good deals but they didn’t they never told me I would get, a quarter ounce, of really good pot, for 25 bucks. And, at the time this was in Minnesota where, what, where good marijuana was difficult to find, but I didn’t know that either. But when I first started using drugs, it was I was way into it Page 3 �because I didn’t have any friends who used drugs, I didn’t know what was moderate so, I basically, and this was just during the summer too, so I basically smoked pot, all day, and I, and it was mostly by myself and sometimes with my friends, because, it took a little while to be able to do it with my friends because none of my friends smoked. So I got them to do it, it would be “oh well Mark’s buying pot, if, I mean he’s pretty straight laced, so it must be okay”. So then I would start smoking it with my friends and stuff, but that how I was introduced to it, and I didn’t really realize until college. how, how drastic that change was from nothing, to a quarter ounce of pot, every day and a half, every two days. It was a lot, for personal consumption. But that’s, that’s, basically how it started, and then from, and, and, from using marijuana as almost a coping mechanism, not really for, for fun, just to kind of escape from reality, just “oh I don’t my parents” rather than talking to them about it, and telling them this is what I want to be doing. You know? I just “why don’t I just get high?” I’ll feel good, and that’s, that’s how it started, was with, with, mostly with just pot, and it eventually developed into other things. GUMMERE: Okay, and you would, you would consider yourself, an addict? CONNORTON: Yeah, yeah, in a sense that , right now, I’m not addicted to drugs. I have responsibilities I’m a college student, I have a girlfriend, my family cares about me. I can’t, I can’t be addicted to drugs right now, but I am an addict in a sense that, if I can’t control the extent to which I use substances. I can’t, it’s either that I don’t use anything at all, including alcohol, cigarettes, or, anything really, or I am extremely addicted. not that addicted, but I’ll just keep doing it until I die basically, that’s how it is with me. I can’t, I can’t just have one drink of alcohol. and this was a problem in college too, and that, and it was easy to kind of blow it off, but everybody drinks in college, come on I mean, it’s just it’s, it’s just accepted, it’s, it’s funny, and in our, in our culture that’s just, that’s just what happens. And so for me to be drinking with my friends, and and not stop until I pass out, it’s just normal, it would ne normally accepted, but if I’m 40 years old doing that. what I mean? Which would have probably happened had I not realized, that I have a problem. you’re an alcoholic when you’re doing that. You’re not you’re not having a party, you’re not having fun, you’re sitting there, you’re at home, you might be alone, you might have a family, you’re drinking, and you can’t stop, until until you pass out. And I, granted that not everybody’s that. some people, some people can have a couple beers, and be good, but the way that my body chemistry is, and this might be a result of my previous drug use, is that, I can’t, I can’t just have one drink, if I have one, it’s just “okay now let’s do some shots”. You know? And it, and then it turns into “let’s go get a fifth” and then it turns “okay, I need some smokes” and then it, and then it turns into “let’s get another fifth” and then it turns into “okay what else can we, let’s go find some blow, let’s go find some smoke.” You know? “Let’s go get some pills” whatever, that’s how, that’s hoe, that’s what happens in my nights, if I were to go, and that happened a lot in college, and it’s dangerous and it’s why I consider myself lucky to be alive. And that my life is kind of grace from God, and I’m still alive, and then able to not get back into that. And then, it will kind of build up, my resistance to drugs and alcohol. But, yeah I’m an addict in that sense, that I can’t control myself. GUMMERE: I’m right there with you, you don’t see a whole lot of 70 year old alcoholics, they pretty much die off earlier then that. (Chuckles) CONNORTON: Yeah, you basically die. (Laughs) So you have to make the choice. (Chuckles) Page 4 �GUMMERE: So I guess, in the regard, when did you first realize that you were, that you were and addict? CONNORTON: well I guess, I in a sense, I kind of, I kind of knew it, while I was going on. I guess my, junior year of college. I got to the point where I I decided that maybe, I should really focus on my academics, and my career, and my career goals, and stuff. And I could, I could control it, for a certain amount, it used to be, when I was, and I think I told you this, but when I was first starting doing drugs, it wasn’t “oh okay, when do I get to do drugs next,” what am I gonna, what am I gonna what do I, what am I gonna do “what do I have to get done first”? ? at the end of the day, when am I gonna be able to look forward to getting high. It was what do I have to do, what, what is there that, does not involve, getting high? I wanted to be high all the time, and I wanted to do the very minimal amount of things possible, to stay alive, and be a functional human being. So it eventually got to the point, where it was okay you need to get some of this stuff done, you don’t wanna end up in debt, from college, and flunk out, and be nowhere, and only do worrying about when you’re gonna get your next hit or whatever. ? So I eventually started focusing a little bit on my school work, that was when, going into my sophomore year. Then my junior year, I kind of picked it up a little, but, I, when I, when I was you kind of come to terms with it. when you really it, when you’re when you’re pleased by the lifestyle. you’re an addict, but you won’t realize it, you won’t tell yourself that. I guess when that happened, would have to have been ‘cause you know it in the back of your mind but you accept it. But I, eventually got a prescription for Adderall, because I do have A-D-D, but before I got this script, I abused Adderall too, I knew the addictive properties of it, but, I wanted the prescription just for that, purpose. So, I got the prescription for it, and I started taking, it as prescribed, but it was fun. But, I would still get stuff done, and I don’t know. I kind of realized, that, as in and out of the times where I would stop taking it, I would stop taking it over the weekend. Or when it, when it started to not get fun, that’s when I realized I was an addict. When it wasn’t fun anymore, when it wasn’t when it didn’t feel good. When it felt, (Sigh), I don’t know. It’s, it’s hard to explain. when it really felt crappy, when I was sober, and it really felt, I was just, miserable, that when I knew I was an addict. I knew that I needed drugs, at that point. I was ‘cause I remember, you’re supposed go off Adderall, you’re not supposed to supposedly you’re not supposed to take it all the time, every day, no matter what, it’s good to give yourself, I think they call them vacations, a vacation from Adderall, so that so you can think about it, not think about it, but just give your brain a break. GUMMERE: So your body can readjust to… CONNORTON: Yeah. And I remember, I remember, there’s periods of my life that are just entire years have gone by and I can’t, I can pick out individual events, but I can’t tell you when they happened, there’s a lot of my past, is just kind of blurred. But , I remember being on the Adderall and it would cause my, addictive tendencies to just flare up really bad, and sometimes, the doctors don’t tell you that which I think they really should “hey look if you have addictive tendencies at all, if you have alcoholism in your family, you shouldn’t be taking this,” because I would literally smoke a pack of Newport’s in a shift at work when I used to work at, Olga’s Kitchen, I was a cook there. and I would literally smoke, I would bust my butt I would get a lot done. In a day at work and and I was a really crappy cook before I got the adderall and then know I was much quicker the servers d me and stuff. But I smoked a pack of Newport’s and not in a day but in a shift a six hour shift so every chance I got I would be in and out but I Page 5 �wouldn’t do that if I wasn’t on the Adderall. So I would take these little vacations from Adderall and it would be it would be I was waking up from hibernation. I would try to try and remember everything that happened in the past month and I would be dough that was a month all of that all of that stuff had happened in a month that felt that was a week. everything was just whizzed just whizzing by and I remember I would just not take it for five days and I would just go back to it. It ok and when I was taking the adderall it also increases your tolerance ¬for alcohol and other certain, certain other drugs. a lotta, a lotta, a lot of college kids abuse it for that property. if you want to go out clubbing or if if you want to go out to bars whatever it it allows you to drink a lot and not actually feel intoxicated. So I guess even though I had a prescription for it and even though I did have ADD I remember, I shouldn’t have been taking it, but furthermore I new that I really shouldn’t have been. Because I used it before but I really new I was an addict during that period of my life. With the adderall coming off adderall every once and a while and thinking about dude your life is going by so fast. you can’t even remember everything that happened and granted yeah I might have been being really productive which is what you do when your, normal people what they do when their on adderall. But I didn’t I was a robot and I remember my girlfriend telling me . She thought it was a good idea originally for me to get on it because I had a hard time focusing. But she would tell me your a zombie I don’t, I don’t, you have no personality and I was okay with that I get all my stuff done all my homework done and work and I still get to party at night. it’s it works its fine but really if that’s if your not you what’s the point of you being a live. if you don’t have your own identity if if the substance makes up your identity and that’s how you get everything done you have to depend on it. that’s that’s called being an addict and that’s what I realized. GUMMERE: When did you say describe your kind of the beginning of your use when would you say your use picked up to the point where started to know you needed to make a change? CONNORTON: Oh yeah GUMMERE: When did your use really start to escalade was there a point where you kind of you know? CONNORTON: Yeah. Well I think there was a lot of low points in my life that I should have realized it but I didn’t none of them was strong enough so well one of them was but none of them were strong enough to get me to really say alright your not nothing you really can’t, you really can’t do this anymore. it’s not you’ll die you shouldn’t I’ve been arrested I used to steal stuff to get money for drugs and I was, I was I was charged, I was charged for that I’ve been I almost died a couple times. just from drugs but I mean I wouldn’t say almost died but I’ve been in very dangerous situations and I put my body in very in extreme conditions with substances. but really the main thing that, that made me stop with everything it happened a year ago last September so it happened about about a year and a half ago. GUMMERE: This would be considered your rock bottom, I guess? CONNORTON: Yeah. This I guess so I mean I guess so yeah I mean at this point in my life as far as as far as my drug use it really wasn’t the rock bottom. But but but just what happened to me and my, my lack of respect for the fact that I don’t have self control with chemicals lead to this and I’ve been, I’ve been, I had been at that time I had been worse with drugs I had been using marijuana every, every day all day, not every day, all day every day. that was the worse incentive sleeping and eating that was all I did. Page 6 �there have been times where that was my life. Or if that was pot or what ever at at night then you start drinking and then once I started drinking it was that opens it up to anything and when people ask how many drugs have you done. And I’m dude how why that’s the incorrect question ask me how many drugs I haven’t done. What types of drugs have I not done then I can actually count it. what I mean? But at this time in life this was this was Sept…September 2010. Right, yeah September 2010, I still have the police report here I can show it to you if you want it’s kind of embarrassing. But this was when I was on the adderall and I was really really allowed me to get a lot of stuff done with my studies. But my personal life was not there. I had no friends my relationship with my girlfriend was just that of I don’t know just daily productivity. what are doing today how can I help you get your things done? The weekends it was lets study I didn’t, or I’m going to go drink with my friends it’s either I wanted to do drugs or I wanted to I don’t be as productive as possible. It was weird it was extremes, but it was a Friday night and I hadn’t been taking the adderall and my girlfriend she said that her plans were to one of our friends she knows her through work. They were going to go over to my girlfriend’s house and hang out. with her parents or something that they had plans to do this and it was this girl thing. And I asked you want me to come over I can watch a movie later. Or whatever and then I think her parents ended up saying something about I don’t know it was a girl thing or something that. So I decided okay well I decide to go get fucked up what I mean. So I decided I was going to take some more adderall I went to go see her, I went to go see her at the on campus at the coffee shop first. And we talked for a little bit and she decided yeah go ahead do your thing, we’re gonna, we’re gonna hang out tonight so I’ll see you tomorrow or whatever. So I’m cool I’m I can do whatever I want I’m not gonna study tonight, so I decided I was gonna take another adderall which I had already taken one that day and this is a routine thing for me. sometimes I would take three or four of them and they were I forget how many milligrams they were that’s not important. Anyways so I took another one and I’m feeling freaking just, (deviated from interview) my cat you just gotta be rough with him. He’s used to that otherwise he’ll just do whatever he wants and stuff. You can hit him or whatever, he’s ridiculous. Ok anyways I decided I was gonna take another adderall because that would allow me to drink more and I called up my buddy I did have some friends whose existents in my life was solely for drug use not not some for the purchase of and some for the consumption with I would want to get intoxicated with them. And so I came over there at this point I was buzzed and it was a little at this point it was little bit difficult for me to get stoned from adderall just because my tolerance was so high. It was I had to take it no matter what right after I left campus and I was going to go and see what was, and I hadn’t this in a long time I was actually Pretty studious and with the quantities that I took. But so I went to go hang out with them any way’s this is taking to long. So I we went out we gotta liquor first we got a fifth of Jameson and I drank it with him in probably half and hour. just back to back and we took shots and then I decided I’m smoking habitually heavily at this time even though I had quit at that point I had quit for a long time I hadn’t smoked in three months, but I started smoking on this night. And then I decided I was going to find some drugs, I’m gonna find something. So I’m asking people around and somebody came over to his house and he had mushrooms, so I’m sweet yeah lets do some mushrooms and everyone’s all they didn’t really even want to do them. I was yeah I want to do some mushrooms so I bought a quarter from him. And a quarter ounce and I just, I just started eating them and the guy was dude you shouldn’t eat the whole thing that’s a lot and I actually I hadn’t had mushrooms probably since high school. I did them once in high school, I think I ate a whole bunch of them went to school and I we watched some video in class and I Page 7 �just had to leave. I left school I was just gone and that’s all I remember of mushrooms and I don’t really remember my trip or anything. So I decided I just kept eating them and I ate a whole bag of them. And I couldn’t I’m not gonna feel them right away they they take a while to kick in and I was drunk so I didn’t really care anyways it had to have been cocaine or something I would have used some self restraint. Because you feel that immediately but with mushrooms it’s whatever I’m just eating it’s eating pizza or whatever. you don’t really care so yeah I ate the mushrooms and then we we decided to go to this party I got another fifth and the other fifth that was for me nobody was and it was another fifth of Jameson. And I was just pulling the, pulling on the bottle and was swigging it. And I was I mean straight out of the bottle. So are we good is it. GUMMERE: I’m just making sure it’s recording your good CONNORTON: So then we’re at this party and after drinking almost finished the fifth, I started to feel the mushrooms and stuff. And I was I was wow I felt this was probably, this might have been one of the most one of the times I have been most intoxicated. Because it was pretty those of some weird, that’s a weird kind of combination. adderall, mushrooms, alcohol, nicotine and then at the party I had pot too. when we go there we started smoking a lot of pot. And, and I kind of remember kind of feeling really disorientated and feeling there was something else I should have been doing, I was walking around outside, these are the last, eventually I blacked out, but I’m trying to tell you the last things that I remember. And so I was walking around outside and their were people on the porch and we’re people were we were having a good time at this point. And I just felt I don’t know I felt I was having an out of body experience. I needed something to bring me back. So I decided I’m going to smoke a cigarette now. And that’s the last thing I remember that, that I did. I smoked a cigarette actually I took a couple drags, I took a couple drags and I was and blew it out and I don’t remember anything. I remember felling really weird the nicotine and then wow, it was just black. I passed out, but apparently what happened, what people tell me is that I just took off I took off running. I started running as fast as I could and I don’t know I don’t know where I could have been running to but I was, I was running really fast and I was freaking out. And I mean I have the police report you can look at it if you want it’s pretty embarrassing but that’s what happened I totaled lost it and I just, and instead of just passing out I went into excited delirium I just was screaming I was running all over the place running through people’s yards, hopped the fence and was running around in this outside in this retirement facility or something that. I was going through people’s yards and stuff and eventually somebody called the cops, the cops came and they they commanded me to stop, I wasn’t doing anything illegal I was just extremely intoxicated and I was running around and screaming a freaking crazy person. So and I don’t remember any of this by the way this I’m going off of what was on the police report. And the last thing I remember was the cigarette. And so there are some accounts in the police report about what people saw apparently I picked up a dumpster, a garbage dumpster and threw it on somebody’s car. I don’t remember any of this but so the cops came and so when the cops were trying to detain me you have to stop you can’t move and I wasn’t showing any sign of submissive behavior at all I was screaming I didn’t want to and I talked to the cop afterwards and he said this was days afterwards, but he said that I wasn’t trying to attack them but I would not go into custody. I wouldn’t, they had to use tasers he said that well actually he didn’t tell me this but this is in the report, they had to use tasers three times, they had to tase me three times to get me to actually be contained. have my hands around my back and everything. And they said that well Page 8 �this is what happened, but they, they were, there was three guys and they were struggling to get me into into custody. And when they finally got me in handcuffs I was trying to get out so hard, so badly I wanted to get out I dislocated my own shoulder. I popped it out while it was behind my back and they didn’t know this at the time, I guess. But and I think at that time, I passed out and that’s in the police report. Yeah I passed out loss conscious I was still breathing still had a pulse, but I was unconscious. And the cops said that they thought I was suffering from excited delirium which is were your body pressure keeps heating up and heating up and heating up until you die. Which I don’t know if that was happening, I don’t know if it was that, the drugs might of induced that. I don’t know probably maybe it wasn’t happening maybe I was just having a violent reaction to the mushrooms and all the other stuff in my body. But they took me to the hospital instead of taking me to jail because of that. So they took me to the hospital at the hospital, I was recovering, I don’t remember any of this either. Actually apparently, apparently one of, this is what some of the nursing staff said that when I came into the hospital, by the time I had came I had come to, I had regained consciousness. And I was violently trying to get out of this stretcher they had to put restraints on me and stuff and and I was being very violent and using obscenity’s and just being nuts psycho. And I don’t remember any of it, I don’t remember any of this. So and also my shoulder was dislocated which extremely painful and I was still going nuts. I couldn’t feel it and I can’t remember it. But when I was in the hospital I remember finally coming to and okay I’m in a hospital. Everything’s fine I was I thought was I’m alive and that’s okay. Because the vague memories that I do have of freaking out are utter hell it felt, if I were to imagine what hell would be that’s what that’s what it would be. it was, it was really bad. Was that a phone or was that the recorder. So I was just for it to be done. Basically and I came to and remember being in extreme pain they were giving me morphine and stuff. So I was feeling but when I wasn’t on the morphine I was just ahh, just ugh. whining and what I mean ugh and grunting and stuff. so they, they eventually realized that my shoulder was dislocated and put it back into place and everything. And then I guess after that event I realized that I should have been dead. I really should have been dead that day. And I realized I should probably, I should probably do something with my life. I shouldn't first of all I should not use drugs anymore first of all I won't take the adderall anymore and I won't ... ....when I tried; up to that point I tried to stop smoking pot it would be it would a.... a. It always every other day type of thing when I was in college at least that that much or if not every day or ..... in the beginning of college it was just as bad as it was in high school all day every day, but when I tried to quit smoking pot it was it was always I always wanted the last time smoking pot to be memorable or the last time the last time doing blow or whatever the last time on pills I always wanted to be memorable so that would be ohhh yeah have a positive memory or something or at least something to send me off do what I mean. But I never did it was always crappy the last time it was. I wanted to be and I always ended up come down and be ohhh man that wasn't enough I need to do it again that that was my thought was .... but after this event I just realized that....that I should of been died and that was enough I needed to do some my life I have been granted to me because I really really should of been died and another thing involve this even was that the same night not even kidding I got tased three times and I was I still having a violent reaction still violently aggressively not wanted to be detained and ahhh the same night in Indianapolis which is my home city a kid died he got tased and he died he was he was shot with a taser and he died the same night so it's kind of. Just a creepy thing for me and a realization that ...that that my way of living and my way of resp.... not respecting my limitations substances it's just just silly just not ahhh I don't know it was gonna lead to Page 9 �my death. I kind of realized that I was gonna die that's what it took that's what it took me avoiding death that was wakeup call and then I realized that it has to be a god up there somebody had, something or someone had been looking out for me, because there are so many things I could of been doing I remember car lights I could of. I don't know I could of been in a high way or something I don't know man but that was what it took mm it was a near death experience for me to realized that I needed I needed to turn it around if I didn't want to die. GUMMERE: Describe that feeling I mean I don't think a lot of people ever experience the feeling that, I could of realistically kill myself right there. Describe the feeling you get knowing that kind how push you to get sober I guess ...is that? CONNORTON: I don't know I guess I'm motivated by the people around me and the the the goals that I have in life because once you ....I haven't really talked about this before but once you have that experiences were you you could have died and really you should be died there is not much that can happen to you that you are not gonna be prepare for; what I mean, I I know what death feels when I was trippin and the stuff that I don't remember if I can try to explain it to you it would be everything. Not just my vision but everything was black everything and in my head everywhere was black and then and then there would be a tiny little spec of light a white dot that I would try with everything with every ounce with every measurable of whatever energy that I had in my body try of seek out that light and just just really try to get to it and then getting closer and closer and this is funny I was probably running my ass off (Laughs); trying to get to the light of whatever its sounds totally abstract and stupid but then I would finally get it and then get bigger and bigger and bigger and then everything would go white everything is white now but I still feel so lost and need to get back to where a a normal place is and then it would be a little black dot and then it would be the same thing over and over again just agonizing and it wasn't I need to the black dot it was . Not only would I be died but everything would just see to exists if I don't seek this thing out with everything I have and finally get to it and have everything normal again; but then once you finally get there it just something is also completely abstract and abnormal but the near dead experience is . Once you are alive after it, you just appreciate being alive more for the good things in life ... you really think about all the consequences of what you do and the benefits of what you do, you know why, you try to look back and think what I my motives for everything I do, why am I alive you think about live little more and I kind of look at it as a positive experience because first of all if it wouldn't happened in that way I'm sure down the road if some other crazy things would of happened and odds are that I would of died from a serious drug overdose. Because by the way my ahh my my drug alcohol level is it was point .22 something so, it was pass .25 so if I would gotten to. If I would being in the hospital, I probably would of died because I was running around randomly. I might not died from the alcohol poisoning but I mean it would of done some serious liver damage but I probably would of passed out somewhere in a ditch and I would of die ...... or any other things could of happened; hit by a car whatever start a fight with somebody or whatever, but I forgot where I was going with that. But but I don't know once you realized that your life is been spare you really start to look at all the aspects of your everyday life who are you helping. You know? what good are u doing for for greater human population or even just your family; who you have around you that that that cares about you that you would to see. ? prosper and then you want to take care of or something that just you need to look at your goals more. You know what I mean? it's not just I should of do this I better go to college I better get Page 10 �a job it's . Why? why am I here why. There has to be a purpose for my life now because I really should be died why am I not just died instead of being alive right now. I have to be doing something and you think about what it is that you should be doing and for me I found guidance through prayer and a read the bible I find a lot of wisdom in there specially in the words that Jesus actually said but that's that's just for me that's my thing I still respect other religions and what not but but I just kind of a desired to just be a good person to be good because otherwise you only serving yourself and that is just pointless I may as well be dead (Laughs) what I mean what what. If you are not helping people who are really in need or who are really suffering or want to live they are on such at risk of dying what's the point of what's the point of you being alive in access what I mean? So you tend to a ....think to think about that stuff a lot more and you. Also we were saying it prepared you for anything really. my girlfriend always tells me when bad things happened to us I'm always okay what do we do now; instead of ohh I can't believe this!! are you serious? this has just happened (Laughs). I'm always ohh that is terrible that is just bad okay. Now what is the course of action that we must take. Because, okay I'm not getting torture and I'm not dying so now just solve the problem (Laughs) that's . So it gives you a different perspective I'm not saying that it's necessary to I mean everybody is different what I mean everyone finds their purpose of life . for me it might be that. I'm not stupid that I really had to used this drugs for that long for me to realized that I need to respect my limitations with that and there is more to life just than self indulgence in control substances you know what I mean? So I guess that what it meant for me the near death experience. GUMMERE: Okay. Being 22 years old and been in recovery drug addict/ alcoholic. you don't see that too often unless you go to places AA what I guess specific challenges do you young addicts face; would you say somebody who older doesn't necessarily have to deal with certain specific challenges that you say? CONNORTON: Can you say the first part of the question again? GUMMERE: Basically just what unique parts are there to be young and being addicted than to be old and being addicted. Is there anything different that in it that makes it harder. I mean for me instance it's just the fact that people our age you said they party it's what they do so it's hard to kind isolate yourself from that. CONNORTON: Okay I just have to use the bathroom really quick and then I can answer that. GUMMERE: How do you pause this thing? CONNORTON: You don't have to pause it don't risk deleting it. (BATHROOM BREAK) GUMMERE: Dude, I'm sorry but when you were on the roughest part of it and your cat turn the sink on and off; I was amazed by that so I was smiling (Laughs). It wasn't the fact that you almost died (Laughs). CONNORTON: He wasn't turn in it on he drinks little bit out when he licks the area it pisses me off so bad; I hate him for it and every time he does it I make this psst don't do whatever you doing or else you gonna get hit and the he keeps doing it that's the one thing that he just keep doing its just worth it for him. Page 11 �GUMMERE: Alright, actually we will. We are gonna change the question. CONNORTON: Still recording it? GUMMERE: Yeah CONNORTON: Okay GUMMERE: Just regardless. Next question would be. Did you drug use cause your friends and family or people in general for that matter to treat you differently? CONNORTON: Yeah somewhat, I guess at first not; not at all because they didn't know because I was really really good at hiding it, there is precautions that you take. Specially if you smoke a lot pot. you heard at lot of teenagers talking about this, you need to get your visine, you got your gum, mouth mints, you got body spray, nobody would not known you are stone man; you are good, or you can still act high; you can. I can be looking someone and be yeah you are stone unless you are me when I was starting smoking I actually got developed to the point where ; my little brother he knew he knew I smoke. He was the only kid in my family that caught me couple times he knew I smoked pot he would. Honestly, he could not tell whether I was stone or high because I was stoned so much more often than I was sober. ridiculous somehow. So that was normal when I was stone that became my personality that was me. So at first it was a long time it was 2 years probably that this. Well maybe not that long maybe a year and half because I started smoking ahhh . This was late I started smoking my junior year, which is actually pretty late for Americans but my parents didn't really catch on to it until after I starting abusing alcohol and pills and stuff too. So once they figured it out they immediate attitude towards it was extremely ahhhhh; they were aggressively towards solving it they wanted it to not be happening to me anymore and any degree what so ever. Ohh and they were really strict about it because my cousin had ahhh fallen into drugs abuse patterns and die he was he would be I think he would be my older brother's age right now but he died when he was 20 years old so they it's in the family to be really protective about that kind of stuff, and their reaction to that to that forced me into more drug use because I was get off me I just want to be in my own world . My friends didn't act different towards me because they were the ones I was doing drugs with and they think they acted better around me if I was the one who came through you I was the best the coolest guy . Yeah actually I remember the time this is how pathetic drugs serious being drug addicted to drugs is, my friend and I had this falling out and ahh and I think it was over a it was either a quarter pound or just quarter ounce of pot that we end up adding up together and it was just gone we lost it we thought somebody stole it and we thought it was one of us. So we had this falling out and we didn't each other at all and then the other two of them two two of my friends they started hanging out again and it was ohh we just hate those guys we don't each other anymore we suppose to hate them or whatever but then one time I got hooked up really good with some ecstasy and I have ten of them and I got really good prices of them and I was yes! and . At first it was I'm going to be the one who consumes this, this are mine but my friends found out from somebody else that I have them and it was Mark is awesome now he is so cool we love him and it got reunited our friendship (Laughs). after that we started doing drugs together all the time and just hanging out that's what we did we didn't hangout we got together and got fucked up that was our life but my family got really concerned after awhile yeah they didn't act different towards me they didn't they didn't it Page 12 �completely changed their interaction with me it was a totally different setting. It was what are we gonna do to get you to come back to reality, and stop avoiding everybody and being so reclusive, and not caring about anything, ya know, there was no, they didn’t act differently to me it was completely changed. It just changed the whole game ya I guess so yes they did, but it was just, it wasn’t normal interaction it was they weren’t my family anymore they were just these people who were trying to get me to stop using drugs they weren’t my brothers they weren’t my brothers they were they were just people who were really concerned about me, we never just hung out for fun. It was what are you doing tonight, what are you gonna go do, are you gonna sneak out? Ya know so ya they were my family in that they cared a lot about me, but it, our interactions were not normal interactions anymore. Once they finally realized I had a serious problem which was a year and a half after I started using drugs. But if you want I can quickly answer that question that you had before. GUMMERE: Sure CONNORTON: I can’t really say how versus being an older person addicted because I’m not I don’t, I haven’t been there and I’m, I think younger people in a sense, if they are younger people who realize they have a problem and admit to it which is AA would tell you that that’s the first step towards defeating addiction is admitting you have a problem and really they view it as admitting defeat saying that you are helpless to help yourself you can’t do it, you need assistance, you know what I mean if you’re at that stage in your life and you’re a younger person that’s awesome, you are way advantaged compared to older people and we’ve seen this at AA going it’s look at all these guys the AA meeting does not become I’m sure they talk about a lot what’s going on in their lives and how they want to, what they want to pursue to avoid circumstances where they’re not drinking what do they want to do, but when younger guys are there, it’s about them. It’s what are you gonna do and it’s it’s a lot of the conversation is directed around the younger people because even when the older guys are talking about themselves it’s that’s knowledge that you can use to not make that mistake you know it’s not that I’m a better person because I realized when I was so younger that I am addicted, No. It’s that you’re lucky enough to have your life spared you should be dead and now you are also lucky enough to go and hear what these people have to say about their own problems and what their own addictions have led to ya know as a younger person yes you should be participating in that but also, and I would guess if your addicted to drugs and you’re an older person you have many more responsibilities it’s probably very agonizing to see your family, it’s not just your brothers and sisters, it could be your wife, and your kids and not only are they agonized to see you in the condition that you’re in a lot of the times but your agonized because they have to see that I can’t imagine, I can talk about it but I really probably should be because I haven’t experienced it but also I can say as far as being a younger person that’s addicted is that ya it’s so normalized in our culture and it’s almost shunned if you want to get help ya know because in the college culture drinking, partying it’s a normal thing and I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be but for some people me, and I think if this is hereditary thing, substance abuse, alcohol abuse is hereditary, but it’s not okay because when I start drinking ya binge drinking is accepted on college campuses because it’s the cool thing to do, but for me binge drinking is regular drinking every time, that’s just how I am, I can’t it’s not because everyone else is doing it and I want to be cool, it’s not because it’s fun. It’s because I started drinking. Binge drinking is because I had one shot, that’s just what happens next I am going to keep drinking until I pass out or until I feel so good that I can whatever I don’t even a lot of kids Page 13 �have their minds on getting laid I don’t even care I just want to keep getting intoxicated if it just so happens some girl wants to get high or something and then we end up having sex whatever that’s cool but I’m not going to go out of my way to go and find a girl, I just want to get intoxicated that’s what happens in the life of an addict ya know what I mean so but, but that’s a normal thing, you wouldn’t be able to tell somebody who’s addicted to drugs from someone who is just partying, you can’t there’s still just selling drugs, using drugs, drinking, whatever its normalized so you really, it’s difficult to get anywhere until your realized you have a problem, but also for younger people in my situation vie been in a lot of places where its accepted, it’s almost culturally normal you should be drinking right now its new year’s eve someone’s making a toast, but I don’t drink, I’m sober I haven’t had any alcohol for coming on two years so but I’m cool around my family but with people I don’t know it’s ya cheers with my water glass ya know and its weird. I’ve gotten over that and trust me it’s not, it’s not bad that is anything compared to being addicted to drugs that’s nothing, those awkward situations and then people might question you oh really, so you can’t control yourself? Ya know you can’t you don’t trust yourself, what kind of person are you well I’m an addict, that’s how it is, that’s in my genetics ya know you get to the point where if you have a problem with that I really don’t care because I know that I should be dead and I’m not gonna it’s not the person is trying to get you to use drugs, there just trying to, I don’t know some people just don’t understand ya know they just say lighten up, just have a drink, but you don’t understand if I have a drink either you or me is gonna be in the hospital tomorrow and were gonna wake up, ya know it’s not gonna be fun. It’ll be fun at first but at the end of the night it’s going to be ya so that’s what’s difficult about being young and being an addict. GUMMERE: We’ll prolly wrap up after this, but basically what would you tell a person that has this problem, and hasn’t sought help yet? CONNORTON: I guess I would say keep doing what you feel is right but I guess you’re not concerned with that but don’t wait, don’t wait for something terrible to happen because it’s bound to happen it will happen, it’s going to happen. Continue using drugs and watch all the bad shit happen to you your life will, it’s gonna suck, you’ll feel great, you’ll feel awesome all the time but in reality everything is terrible around you, everything is terrible because you’re not paying attention to anything you don’t care about anything but the way that your body feels, and the way that you perceive your body to be feeling the chemicals in your head, that’s all it is, when your high, when your stoned and everything is alright, it’s just a chemical in your head ya know your family could be dying and you wouldn’t care as long as you have your drugs eventually you will get there, eventually you will get there and I’ll say that addiction doesn’t always happen right away, it doesn’t always happen right away, sometimes addiction starts with self-control when I started smoking, when I started smoking pot no it was immediate it was right away, it was now this is what I’m gonna do for the whole summer this is my life now, this is awesome but with cigarettes I knew it was bad for you, cigarettes are bad I shouldn’t be smoking cigarettes but I would only smoke once every weekend or whatever, and I could control myself, for a year I only smoked on the weekends ya know it was a long time, but eventually you will get to the point where your tolerance will go up your desire to use it is gonna go up, it will you will want to use it and you will give in, youre a human being your just chemicals in skin. the laws of physics say that you are gonna want more of what you have that your body s, you’ll get addicted to it, (laughs) it eventually happens, and my little brother started smoking a little while ago, and he was the same thing, I basically just beat the crap out of him, Page 14 �(laughs) you can’t just don’t, I only smoke this, I only smoke this time. No. You’re gonna get addicted to it, and that’s the case with other drugs. if you start using any other type of harder drugs, and its fun, and you it. What do you think is going to happen? are you going to be using those drugs for the rest of your life is that what you want eventually you will have to stop using it. do you wanna, do you wanna be the person who has to quit pills when you’re thirty years old? And you have a family, or you’re thinking about starting a family. Can you imagine how addicted you will be at that point? And also this is especially important but what, name one benefit. What are the benefits to using drugs? Other than it feels really good. it feels really good. I’m not gonna lie, it feels really fucken good, drugs they feel really good, they will make you feel great, but that’s the one thing. Name one other benefit, anybody. Okay so it costs money, you will deplete your funds. If you’re really addicted, that’s all you will spend your money on, and eventually you’re gonna go broke. Okay, and number three, or wait this is only two things (laughs) See what it does to your brain, man? (laughs) Okay, so number two, ya it has physical effects on your body, you’re gonna, you’re gonna deplete, your body’s ability to sustain itself. It depends on what drug, but that’s widely accepted you’re gonna hurt your body. the people you surround yourself with, not just the dangers that substances does to your body, but the people who are surrounded with drugs, they’re bad people, people who make a living, not all people, but in general people who make a living surrounded on other peoples addictions are ad people, and you’re gonna put yourself in dangerous situations. And then number four is is this number three or number four? Okay, it doesn’t matter what number it is, but this is another thing. You’re addicted to drugs so you are subjecting yourself to your own desires. you don’t realize what you will do to get that substance. once you start using it recreationally. It’s fun, and you got money, you can go get it, it’s fun, I can go do it with my friends, but what are you gonna do five years from now when you’re broke because you spent all your money on drugs, and you need it, you will need it, your body will want it so bad. that’s your life; you’ll want it so bad. It’s the only things that is important. so what are you gonna do? What crime are you gonna commit? Who are you gonna hurt? Ya know? not just the effects on yourself. when you say who am I hurting by doing drugs? Okay well you’re hurting yourself, but that person might say “Okay fine let me do that to myself” who might you hurt though, who might you surround yourself with that has what you want? Ya know what I mean? Or is there other people around you who care about you? that would be invading someone else’s personal life. you’re hurting someone else by not giving a crap about them. if you have people in your life that are dependent on you, or people in your life that care about you, and you’re using drugs your putting your drugs, you love you love. if you’re addicted to drugs, you love drugs, you love them; you love them because you spend time with them. You would do anything for them, anything to get them, ya know? You love them more than you love people so if there are people that you love, you love drugs more I guarantee that you do, and then also if you’re addicted you’re putting other people at risk people you don’t even know because you don’t know what you’re gonna do when you’re on a bender. You don’t know what you’re gonna do when you’re coming down, and you really want something ya know? So you’re a danger to society ya know, I don’t know. Also I would say that other disadvantages there is a plan for your life there is things for you to accomplish. There are people who need your help. There are people dying right now, because they don’t have food, and you’re sitting there smoking a joint by yourself, or you’re hanging out with your friends and you’re rolling on ecstasy, or your sitting in an alley, and you’re shooting up heroin. there is people dying, and you’re killing yourself? how I don’t know man. how arrogant is that, ya know its selfish, it’s so selfish. Page 15 �don’t be, if you’re gonna kill yourself at least I don’t know join the army or something and go and run out and try to kill the enemy, and go on a suicide mission. if you’re gonna kill yourself, help people first, ya know? There are people that’s I don’t know there are people dying, there is good to be done ya know. when everything is great, when world hunger is over and, and there is world peace, there’s no poverty, I really can’t say anything to you, go ahead do drugs whatever (laughs) but still there are all the other disadvantages, you would be hurting the other people around you, you would be endangering society, you’d be killing yourself, ya know, but those are some serious reasons why you should just first of all you should not start doing drugs, I mean because it just leads to bad things, you will become addicted to it. If you think you’re not addicted to drugs, and you are using drugs, you will become addicted to drugs because you don’t respect drugs. You love them, but you don’t respect them so you need to do that. you need to stop using drugs, or at least realize it’s a dependency issue, and you can’t but, I don’t know as far as drinking and stuff, I guess some people can do it, some people can’t, some people can’t control themselves, if your one of those people who can’t control yourself, there is help out there, there is people out there that you can be accountable with, so that you don’t end up hurting yourself, or hurting other people around you, but ya that’s all the advice I got. GUMMERE: Do you guys have any other questions? It was good. CONNORTON: That’s a lot, sorry. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9abdc62b7f13b673e54440b03a8e6937.mp3 e70b17660969a2de92b385e8a546d9ac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Connorton_Mark Title A name given to the resource Mark Connorton audio interview and transcription Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Connorton, Mark Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gummere, Brandon Helinski, Tyler Rocco, Joseph Ortega Vasquez, Julio Description An account of the resource Mark Connorton is a mathematics major at Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He discusses his alcohol and drug addiction issue and how it affected his relationship with his parents. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9aa2d6441443b4c771e133be82fbf84c.pdf 439e624e384f0d104825ff4bdc473c0d PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jeff Lichon Interviewers: Grace Faoro, Cody Holtrop, Eli Rytlewski and Michael Vallentine Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/3/2012 Biography and Description Jeff Lichon was born and raised in West Michigan. He discusses his struggles with disability after being in a car accident at age 15. Transcript FAORO: All right to get started. Jeff how old is you and where are you from originally? LICHON: I am 33 years old and I am originally from Saginaw. FAORO: Okay so from around here. LICHON: Yes, I’m a local. FAORO: Now, what was it like growing up in Saginaw, and this area? LICHON: I personally, Michigan I think is the greatest place in the world. I love it. We got the if this is about diversity Michigan is a perfect example of that only in a different way, I think its we have the change of the seasons and we’ve got fresh water that you don’t have to worry about getting eaten by sharks. But honestly it was, its home. I mean I’m comfortable here and I think I’ll always come back here or relocate back here. if I move away or anything like that for a period of time or whatever. There is a lot out there to see but in the big little world, this is still home and I grew up with mom dad and an older sister. she did the normal sibling rivalry and everything and I always tried being the peacemaker and stuff in the family. FAORO: Was she much older than you? LICHON: Two and half years. FAORO: Okay so you guys were pretty close in age. LICHON: Yeah and we are very close still. She’s lives in Grand Rapids as a matter of fact, and has been there for close to 10 years. So yeah. FAORO: Have you ever lived anywhere else but this area or have you always lived kind of stuck around? Page 1 �LICHON: I’ve lived in right out of my undergrad I lived in the Metro Detroit area for a total of 5 years. Two different companies and then eventually I started at Dow in the rotational program and my second rotation was in Washington D.C and I spend 6 months out there. FAORO: Now what is a rotational program just out of curiosity? I don’t really know. LICHON: It’s a where I started at Dow, its kind of an entry level position I’m Public affairs its called Public Affairs Developmental Program and Mike’s dad hired me into Dow actually. So but at any rate you do typically you do three 4-6 month rotations. And each one is kind of you typically you stick with the one project area like my first one I worked on sustainability communications and when I was out in D.C I handled the Government Affairs Communication in PR and what not so and then I ended up actually coming out of rotation because a position became available and it was a good fit. FAORO: Now where did you go to school and what did you study? LICHON: My undergrad was at Central Michigan University and I double majored in logistics and marketing and a Journalism minor. I did two years at Delta College too actually. I got my associates in Business. It took me while, starting out I didn’t know what I wanted to do . FAORO: That’s pretty common. LICHON: Well yeah like anybody, what do you want to do the rest of your life? well okay, that’s easy… not its not. FAORO: You’re 19 choose now. LICHON: Exactly, no pressure so I started out in psychology and when my dad asked me what I wanted to do with that, I said that was a good question. I think teaching would be natural for me and somewhere down the road maybe I could retire I’ll teach or something. I have actually been a substitute teacher, taught for a little while in local high schools in Saginaw. and So then between my first and second years at Delta I went from within a two week period I changed my mind starting with Psychology to Pre-Med to Pre-Law to Business. So I got my associates in Business at CMU and did the Marketing Logistics, I knew I wanted to do something to take advantage of my creative side and what not, so Marketing was kind of an -natural fit. I joined the co-ed Business Fraternity there so I wanted to do something social but also help be a good rese builder too. FAORO: Right connections and working. LICHON: Exactly. So everybody in the business Fraternity, not everybody, but several people were doing this double major logistics and marketing and I was like what the heck is logistics? So I looked into it and it seemed like a growing field a lot of opportunity and what not and its funny I get to maybe a little bit about what I’m doing with Dow actually. I kind of came full circle with the logistics thing, it actually helped me further down the road and I wouldn’t even know about it back then. so at any rate, I ended up, the 5 years I spend in Detroit were in international logistics operations and like the first company was CH Robinson. If I’m getting too much detail or something stop me. Page 2 �FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: No! You’re good. LICHON: Okay, it was a little over two years with CH Robinson shipping Scott’s fertilizer via the ocean and airfreight around the world. by the container load, the big ocean containers in the large ocean vessels. and it was good experience but it was not I didn’t really see myself doing, and I didn’t feel it was a great use of my talent and all of that. so I left CH Robinson and got a job at Chrysler and was a contractor there with eagle global logistics. I was doing a similar thing only, Chrysler vehicles around air and ocean freight it was, it was, special operations. It wasn’t high vole, getting the production company. like thousands of cars around the world and stuff like that. But, there were cars used in commercials when the Jeep Commander came out with the little roller, frozen in a block of ice? That was actually filmed at the southern hemisphere proving ground in New Zealand; I shipped that vehicle there. FAORO: Wow LICHON: Yeah, so it was kind of cool. it was a step up from, it was kind of moving in the right direction. Its still not exactly what I wanted to do. I spent three years there. While I was there I got my MBA from Michigan State. I did the weekend MBA program and felt that that would help me, go that next level. FAORO: Get you where you wanted. LICHON: Exactly. And I would’ve come to find out that it did. I was able to; I interviewed with Dow and it. I was not only able to switch companies but to switch fields. because I wanted to get into circling back to my undergrad, the journalism minor that I got. I also, do some freelance outdoor travel and like disability writing and for various magazines. You just send inquiries in; my dad has also done on the side as a kind of hobby. And I always enjoy writing, and enjoy the outdoors, and traveling and what not, so it was a natural fit, and so I’m like I wanted that I could behind me to give me some more credibility for my writing. So I go the Journalism minor. I could come to find out that it helped me get into Dow. I didn’t have any communications experience per say, besides the minor, I have done some public speaking, to various groups nationally, local and what not, for my injury. so all of those things kind of came together and helped me, along with the MBA, to get into Dow, to change fields from logistics to communications, which are pretty, you can imagine, there are many difference between the two. FAORO: I’m really interested in the writing you do for the outdoors, and the public speaking you do. Can you elaborate on that a little? LICHON: Gosh when did that start? FAORO: Like how did you get into it, like the opportunities kind of thing? LICHON: I’ll start with the writing. That’s easier. As I mentioned my dad always did that on the side. we always used to go hunting together, pheasant hunting, duck hunting, go out on the Saginaw Bay and he did this boats and blinds column for Wild Flower Magazine. He did this for 15-17 years and wrote for other Magazines. So I said I wanted to do that. The contact, connections and I said hey I’m interested in writing, and I submitted an inquiry. My first article was in the Michigan Outdoors on how to preserve Page 3 �your game after you shoot a deer or a duck or something. If you want to get it mounted. So pretty basic, but helpful right. And I just started from there; it was easy for me because it’s like what do you like to do? And write about it. So so I just started from there. I did my own LLC access outdoors (Limited Liability Company). And what else? I have written for some national publications now. I’m still kind of in the name building thing because over the years I have had gaps where I haven’t consistently kept my name out there so I have written for regional reports for Great Lake Fishing and Hunting News, on the Saginaw Bay Region, I did that for about a year or so. what’s going on in fishing and hunting and stuff, and where the hot spots, things like that. It was interesting, and then I would find when I would go on a trip somewhere, it would line up different activities adventures and stuff like that because I’m an adventurous guy I like those things. Every year I would try to do an in state and out of state trip and do different things. I mentioned I’m going down to Florida tomorrow. I work on lining up a fishing trip for Goliath grouper. They can get up to 600 pounds. So something like that. I am also trying, disabled water skiing for my first time down there. A week from today I’ll be on some inland lake. Hopefully no alligators are out there and I’ll be water skiing. So that will be fun, I hope. Hopefully not to overly adventurous. FAORO: How do you do disabled water skiing? I just like… LICHON: I down hill ski too, so I’m guessing that the fall in the water isn’t as hard but. Your basically, I’ve seen different ones. I mean there are some that are narrower skis and they have a bucket seat on it and your legs are secured in, your feet are strapped in. VALLENTINE: Pulls you up? LICHON: It pulls you up. Yeah. VALLENTINE: So that’s essentially the same thing as snow skiing too, right? LICHON: Yeah. VALLENTINE: Cause I’ve seen that. LICHON: I love it. It’s a good time. So I’m trying to get back to what I was leading into here. Hum, so… so always try and do in state out of state trips. I find a couple things to do that are non-typical for someone with a disability and then write about it. And maybe open up people with other disability, whether it’s physical or mental, open up their perspectives and hopefully their options and actually get out and do the things they want to do. So, I went to the National Cherry Festival in Traverse City and Mackinaw Island. Okay, and you just write about different things and how easy it is to get around and things you can do. In Traverse City I went to, I went on the tall ship Manitou out in West Grand Traverse Bay and went Parasailing. So, I wrote about those and I tried getting up with the Blue Angels that year but it didn’t pan out. They take up members of the media every year, I can guarantee you, just about guarantee that I will have been the first person with a spinal cord injury to ride in a fighter jet. That would have been cool. That would’ve been good publicity for them, wouldn’t it? Page 4 �FAORO: Now when you write, do you find that like any people in the disabled community are like really inspired or have you heard from anyone about your writings or anything? LICHON: No. Well the thing is people, I mean sports and spokes and paraplegic news are sister publications from the paralyzed veterans of America and I’ve written for both of them. FAORO: Are you a Veteran? LICHON: No. I wish it was that honorable. No, car accident. And s I can talk about that too if you’d like? FAORO: Are you comfortable? LICHON: Yeah, absolutely. … losing track of what I was saying. RYTLEWSKI: You were talking about writing for the association… LICHON: Oh yeah. The PBA and stuff. So they’re a national publication so they have good reader ship and if it helps one person or 2 people, whatever, I think that’s making a difference there. But I always look to, for meaning in things I do. What’s going to make an impact on lives of people? Not just people with disabilities but anybody. FAORO: Open the eyes of people who aren’t disabled maybe… LICHON: Yea, yea. The perspective of people with disabilities now has changed a lot since, I mean there was a huge movement back in the 60s and 70s and following Vietnam. With people coming back with these injuries and from war and having these types of injuries. Whether its post-dramatic stress, spinal injuries, head injuries and stuff like that. There was a big movement because they were coming back and even though; the country was very anti-war and anti-veteran and treated everyone bad, it was probably that much worse for those who were coming back with these catastrophic injuries. These life changing things that could actually, probably do more good for society and helping facilitate better back in the normal word, sort of speak. But it didn’t. There were big fights through those years. early in the 90s we ended up getting the American Disabilities Act from President Bush. that has been a hug step and has really opened up opportunities and the ability of people with, probably in a lot more respect of physical disabilities than mental. To get out because more things are accessible. Well new buildings are instructed; they now have to incorporate burrier free design and things like that. All public buildings have to be accessible. Anytime an old building is modified in anyway it has to be retrofitted with accessible designs as well and things like that. So, coming back to the present I think that the awareness of people with a disability has increased significantly and just over the things that have been leading over the years but there is still a ways to go. I mean no one thinks of himself or herself of wanting to have a disability; I was thrown into it when I was fifteen. It was something that happened to me, I spent 15 years walking and all of a sudden… You are either born with one, you sustain one somewhere. As people age different things come up, whether it’s dementia or whatever. So, no one ever think of themselves as having a disability. There are a lot of challenges of raising the awareness and I think now with the war and Iraq, the technology we have today there is going to be more people surviving their injuries at war cause of technology and these soldiers are going to come back and they are going to Page 5 �want to work and live a normal life and so you are going to see a lot more people in society with different types of injuries and disabilities, mental or physical or whatever. So, that’s definitely going to, I mean that’s unfortunate that it happens, but it is what it is and I think it is definitely going to help increase that awareness level and you’ll see just more; I think what that ultimately leads to is people have a different perspective on life. They see things differently right? FAORO: Yeah. LICHON: So, case in point, myself. I played football, baseball, basketball, soccer, skied, track, everything. It was April 26 of 1994, which will be 18 years next month since my accident and I got home from baseball practice and instead of doing my homework, like I probably should have, I ended up walking over to my buddies house to play basketball with another buddy. It was a few blocks from my house and I got there and I remember playing horribly and I don’t know, it’s just something you remember. So, was playing horribly and I had just gotten the first Rage Against the Machine CD and I wanted to play it on my buddy’s stereo because he had these big speakers. These box speakers. I remember getting ready to leave and that was it. What happened beyond that was a kid in my class had just got his drivers license, we weren’t close friends but we were friends of friends. We didn’t hang out all the time. So, he had just gotten a new truck and my buddy and me were about to walk home. The kid said hop in the bed of the truck and ill give you a ride home. So, we’re 15 years old, so of course. We were invincible then. FAORO: Yea, free ride. LICHON: Yea why not. Might be cool, whatever. So, there were 3 guys in the cab so we hopped in the bed and when we took off, I laid down in the bed cause I didn’t want to get thrown out and so that’s what I was told. So, the driver was messing around, lost control and went up a curb. On the same street that the kid’s house was that we were playing basketball at. And he hit a tree going about 50 and the driver had a concussion, the kid in the middle seat had 15 stitches across his knees, the kid in the passenger seat had a few stitches across his lip. Had we hit on the passenger side instead of the driver side, the kid in the passenger seat would have been killed because the hood came up through the wind so far it would have sliced his head open. It was bad. When I first saw the truck post-injury it was surreal. I called it the eight wonder of the world cause I was amazed anyone survived it. So, my buddy was in the bed of the truck with me and ended up getting 2 stitches in his finger cause he was holding on when we hit. I had a broken back. Which your spine has your cervical, which is in your neck, Your thorax, which I think has 7 vertebrate there. So they measure it like C1,C2,C3. So you have 12 thoracic, which are all your, which is the bulk of your back, your spine. there are 12 of those. Then you got your lumbar, which is your lower back, your sacru, and your praxis. I broke 3 vertebrate, T5,T6,T7. Which is just chest level here. had I broke my spinal cord one or two higher I probably would have lost some function in my arms and hands and stuff. I am very fortunate for as severe as it was and that I didn’t get some sort of head injury from bouncing around the bed of the truck. excuse me. So I had a broken back, a bruised heart, collapsed lung, and 3 broken ribs. Short term memory loss for 2-3 days pretty mild fortunately. I guess it was good that I didn’t get a head injury, though I guess some of my friends would argue against that, sometimes I may have one. (Laughing) Joking, ok. so I spent 3 weeks in St. Marys Page 6 �Hospital in Saginaw. had surgery where they put titani rods in my back to stabilize the spine. they took a bone chip out of my hip and fused the 3 veribrate together. They pulled bone chips out of my spinal cord, which caused that and the swelling from the traa caused the injury. So basically your spinal cord is about the diameter of your pinky and if theres, think about the diameter of a internet cable or something like that, or wifi; how intricate is some of the cables if you just break one of those it breaks the signal so that’s how the nerves are going through, they are just so tight together and any type of damage or shifting of the spine, swelling, can cause permanent disability. And if ya just tweak it. I hope I am not making anyone quezy if you are gonna be eating after this or anything (Laughes) FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: (laughing) No we are alright LICHON: I spend three weeks, they fused 3 vertibrate together and pulled bone chips out of the spine. After that I went to grand rapids and spent 2 months in rehab for at Mary Free Bed by the hospital there, right on Wealthy St. FAORO: Oh I have seen stuff for that. LICHON: Kinda near the gaslight district? Or something? VALLENTINE: Something like that LICHON:I don’t think it’s a redlight district (Laughes) LICHON: Anyways, well I spent 2 months there and I had to relearn pretty much everything we take for granted. I had to relearn how to reach down and tie my shoes, I could not reach my feet right after my injury to put on shoes and socks, to get dressed, I had to relearn all that. But like I said, I had to relearn to transfer from the wheelchair to a real chair or a vehicle. Initially I was using what was called a sliding board. It’s just a very thin, solid board, about this long. That you slide under one hip then ya put it into the vehicle or onto the chair or something like that. I never thought I was never going to not have to depend on that just because it was that difficult to do. I had to relearn getting around the house, taking a shower, , bladder/ bowel considerations come into play. I mean everything was different. and so. After my, after I spent two months there, I came home, started my junior year in high school, no sports. Looked into getting back into hunting and fishing, because those we like my nber one passions. worked with my family and friends into getting back into doing the things I used to do as much as possible. yeah it was hard, it was an adjustment. Especially, as you can imagine for a 15 year old, it’s such a critical time in your life, in high school, in your development. Emotionally and all that. But I had awesome friends and family who were very supportive. I got right back that fall into hunting. there were some things I was kinda resistant to like, like I didn’t wanna be identified by my injury, by the disability or anything like that. I still wanted to be jeff FAORO: Right LICHON: ? And i think that was one personal battle that anyone who goes through anything like that would have. That you ultimately find out that you are only fighting yourself (laughs) and everyone still Page 7 �sees you for who you are in the end. but still it’s such a significant change. Going back to now, the idea that people with disabilities have a different perspective on life, because of a significant life challenge. I think. (bing noise) (laughing) RYTLEWSKI: Is it dying on me? (laughing) LICHON: See everyone has a different outlook on life and everything because of the challenges that you have gone through. So, that all ties into your work ethic, ties into your outlook on life. My motto is you only live once doesn’t mean that you have to be wild and reckless, it just means life’s short. It’s very short, I can’t believe I am 33 now; it’s hard to believe that 18 years have gone by since my accident, since that accident. But it’s just been an incredible 18 years. The opportunities I have had with people I have met, who knows where I would be today? Maybe the injury, I believe things happen for a reason. Maybe had the injury not happened, something would have happened where I would have died? You never know right? So I take every moment, I try to live in the moment. Do what it, what I feel is going to be a positive impact to people and doing the things also that I wanna do. Where when I get 50 60 years old whatever, and i look back and say man I wish I did that. I think regrets are hard for anybody. But now I think I have that perspective where people think about that and go, they think that they don’t like regrets and they think that they don’t wanna miss out on a opportunity in life. So I am actually going one step further and actually trying to do those things that I wanna do. traveling, and whatever down the road, getting married, having a family. Whatever is important to you, its personal to everybody. What they wanna do in life and stuff. So, my ultimate goal is to achieve greatness. (laughing) FAORO: I like it (laughing) LICHON: Yeahh RYTLEWSKI: You’re on your way there LICHON: Yeah! A long way there, I don’t ever think I’ll reach like dali llama status or anything like that (laughing) LICHON: Which is fine FAORO: Hey, don’t knock yourself down, you never know (laughing) FAORO: Dalli llama might be right here in midland Page 8 �LICHON: Yeah right! (laughing) LICHON: I’d rather be in the mountains (laughing) LICHON: So do you have any questions? FAORO: Maybe wrapping it back to Dow and now, with your disability are you involved in Dow in any way? RYTLEWSKI: DEN right? It’s called den? LICHON: Yeah right, RYTLEWSKI: Talk about that a little bit, my dad told me about it LICHON: Yes, ok so when I started at Dow I was in the rotational program, I had god what was the, trying to think of the timeline of everything cause it happened so quickly. Your dad gave me a lot of opportunity real fast. (Laughing). And so, yeah, DEN is the Disability Employ Network and I am the global chair no pun intended (Laughing). All right. OK. And Rob, Mike’s dad of course who hired me in, got me involved with the network, when I started. within like 2 or 3 months I was co-chair with Brenda Keeler, who at the time was the chair. And so then, that was with the understanding that eventually I would become chair. I was like ok, a year down the road or something, I’m at a new job and a new company. Nope, 2 months later I’m the chair. That opened up a lot of doors for me, but through that I’ve gone and spoke to, the, what was it? Allegiance of State Employees with disabilities, which is State of Michigan employees, that have disabilities. I have gone to national conferences for students with disabilities, I have had speaking opportunities, I’ve gotten to travel around a little bit and meet a lot of people, it was an awesome networking opportunity just for me for a personal standpoint. that wasn’t the only thing like, I a lot of people think, its kinda like the jeep syndrome, you drive a jeep everyone thinks everyone who has a jeep waves to everybody who has a jeep. OK, you’re in a wheelchair people think so and so, you work at Dow, do so and so? Well, there’s like 2 or 3 thousand people I’ve met with. You never know it’s a small town. So, people think because you have some sort of disability people think everything about every disability. Which is, isn’t further from the couldn’t be further from the truth. I was able to meet a lot of different people who have different disabilities, who who’s children have disabilities, or who know someone with a disability. And I have been able to go and speak to people with new disabilities injuries and stuff like that. Spinal injuries around the area, stuff like that. So it was a huge learning for me to be involved with them. I mean it opened up my eyes a lot ? I was able to I’m kind of a focal point for corporate center accessibility. So anytime, our facilities, is looking to put in automatic doors, or whatever I work with them. in doing that. Well I have to take in consideration for other disabilities, people who are blind, people who are deaf, things like that. So, again its my scope was just spinal cord injury, physical disabilities, using a wheelchair right. So that kind of helped me open up my perspective more and see a broader, aspect of disabilities I guess scope. Page 9 �Excuse me, and it was also and this is one of my favorite parts because, I like to give back to, people or anyone or anything that gives me an opportunity, so the opportunities I’ve had a Dow and with Den and with my career, with my growth and the people I’ve been able to work with, and meet through the company and through Den, have been awesome. And I naturally want to give back. So, by being visible around the company and having trying to fill the high profile and whatnot, I think opens up other people’s eyes, right . And helps them to learn, and maybe and however way in everyone is personal but a source of inspiration for them in some way. and everything whether I’m going on a business trip seeing what I do on a daily basis to get around and do the things I do, I think people have a greater appreciation for what they have. I hope so, ? because it’s a workout everyday, both physical and mental. And yeah I’m in pretty good shape (laughing) upper body ? (Laughing) So, you’re transcribing this right? FAORO: Yeah (laughing) LICHON: And but I mean getting up in the morning, is a lot more work than falling out of bed I could actually hurt myself. Falling in bed for you is probably just because your really tired or something, (Laughing) I have to really, I have to take care of myself that much more, to be able to go on to the things I want to do in life. so its it takes longer in the morning to get ready, somewhat. And especially like, however busy the last day or several days were, my upper body, I mean my arms are my legs ? Arms are not built to do the work that legs are built to do. So, if I’m going the halls in Dow are ridiculous in length. they have even though its not 70’s shag carpet, they have a carpet down through the halls and stuff, and that adds to the drag, I mean just little things like that make it a little more difficult to get around. But, I’ve conditioned myself to do that, but still, over the course of a day a busy day, your doing meeting after meeting, and your not only exercising yourself mentally your taxing from that perspective. But, you’ve got the physical aspect in there too. how many times a day I think man, I’m exhausted mentally or something you just had a busy day of classes, or its hot. You get tired right? Your ready to cash out, so being physically and mentally exhausted, when you get up in the morning the last thing you want to do is get up. Even though my mind isn’t mentally exhausted, my arms might and my shoulders and stuff. So, I still have to take care of myself, I mean, if I sprain a wrist, or tear a rotator cuff or something like that. I mean that will have a massive effect on my ability to do things, ? Just I go to physical therapy still, 18 years later I’m going twice a week, as a maintenance program, because of my injury I get muscle spasms. If I have a stressful day my legs are going to be like super tight, I’m always trying to stretch them out and move them around, and stay active just to keep them limber, things like that. So, I’m going to physical therapy, weekly massage which I always feel kind of snooty saying that but it’s important because it helps the skin integrity because you can get skin break down with spinal cord injury because your sitting down all the time, ? That’s another consideration I’ve taken account, if I get a pressure sore, where your sit bones are, because I have muscle atrophy your not using your legs like you used to. I mean just think if you stopped working out, or having your hockey practice and things like that, your probably not going to be in serious shape, if you not using them. LICHON: So at any rate, there’s a lot of different considerations, that I have to take into account, and but, where I tie this all back to, or I always try to tie this my injury my disability back to is that, every Page 10 �single person people with disabilities don’t want to be seen as, as different as being identified by their disability. FAORO: Like you said you don’t want to be defined by it. LICHON: Right, right, yeah, and so how I tie it back I say that everybody is the same well (laugh) there not, ok. I mean you two are as different from each other as you two are everybody does things in their own way. so, no people don’t want to say ok, your disabled, they don’t want to hear that. Or that you have a disability or anything, so so, we want to identify that we have an injury. I don’t think of myself as having a disability, I do things differently because I have to, because I have what I call an injury, right. It’s classified as a disability right? so is I think addiction to coffee or something, I don’t know, some weird things like, in the American medical association. So, people may be born with, who end up being like multiple sclerosis or muscular dystrophy or things like that, that’s a genetic thing, and fortunately with spinal cord injury, its not debilitating like some of those conditions or what not. its with spinal cord injuries its like something you acquire throughout the course of you life, so I identify it as my injury, I know its classified as a disability, and I’m not saying that people can’t say it’s a disability or anything like that, because it doesn’t bother me right. And so, when people ask like “Well aren’t you mad?” or “Aren’t people with disabilities mad, angry at life and this and that?” I’m like “Alright buddy,” people think that, they think they were dealt an unfair hand in life. I say it was such a po, I mean, if I had the choice being on my feet or not, yeah I’d be walking, just the opportunities I’ve been given, and the people I’ve met that I’ve mentioned have been just so incredible over the past 18 years. How can you say its been disabled? So, when people say are you mad, or aren’t people with disabilities angry at life, if you were an angry person before an injury or disability than you will probably be the same after. You are who you are right? And, yeah I’ve had my challenges of trying to figure out, especially when all of my friends were going away to college I was going to Delta. I had a challenging time of trying to figure out like “Man this Is kind of scary now, its getting real,” Your so busy in high school and everything that its you don’t really pay attention, I mean you just always go, go, go. And then when things maybe start to slow down, and you have to kind of choose a direction, what’s that direction you want to choose? I didn’t like the alternatives not going forward, and people are like, “Have you ever thought, considered a thought of committing suicide?” No, frankly it scares me, so no, I’m like, “That’s not in me,” what I mean? and so, the people who think that or, or, think its OK to go go shoot up a school, you see it in many different aspects of life not just disabilities, people’s attitudes are, I know this might sound cliché, but peoples attitudes are the biggest disabilities ? What people choose to do with their life is their choice, people don’t take enough accountability for themselves, responsibility for themselves, and its your own fault if you don’t make of yourself what you want to do in life. With me, I have this opportunity in my injury to get out and make something of it, and to go, achieve greatness (laughing). I mean kind of tongue and cheek, but there is a lot of seriousness to that ? And so, again it goes back to when I, when I get old and grey, or older and grey, then I don’t want to look back and say “ man I wish I did that, or gosh I’m ticked I didn’t do that, or make something of myself,” because its fun being here (laughing) ? And having life we don’t know what comes after. But, your still why not have fun while you’re here and take the most to seize every opportunity that you can, and and when you get to the end of say, “alright I did my best.” Page 11 �FAORO: I have a question more about like, now I know you said about your physical rehabilitation and your very obviously comfortable, but was it always that way? Or was there like a mental rehabilitation you kind of had to go through first? Like to get comfortable and get acceptance? LICHON: Yeah, absolutely, the same magazines that I said I wrote for, “paraplegic news and spokes in sports” I didn’t want anything to do with them when I got home from rehab in Grand Rapids, I thought they were the same thing I didn’t want to identify with, and now I end up writing for them and I have subscriptions to them for years. FAORO: Do you think it had to do with maturity to? as you got older, or just kind of you were young and it was just kind of a different mindset then. LICHON: Sure, yeah absolutely, yeah your 15 years old how mature are you really? We think we are but its just like so and I’ve always, I guess been told that I have a higher maturity level which I guess is maybe contributed to handling it the way I did when I was at Mary Freebed in Grand Rapids I had to see a social worker like starting out for a few weeks once or a couple of times. And she said to me, “Don’t you think that your taking this a little too well?” And that was the last appointment I had with her, because it ticked me off that she would ask such a thing, I’m like, “How could you take this too well?” There’s a difference between being what’s the word? like between oblivious to something or ignorance is one thing, I mean you could, ignorance you could learn and correct that. but denial I think is another thing, and I wasn’t denying because in the story I tell people and I’ll get to my struggle here in a minute but the story I tell people that I’ve kind of kept as my attitude throughout is that the next morning following my accident I woke up, tubes coming out of me everywhere, monitors up keeping track of my heartbeat, my mom and my dad and a nurse. And I’ve just gotten contact lenses and was having a heck of a time getting used to them and putting them in and everything. So, I woke up and there were like a lot of friends out in the lobby and my sister was out there and stuff. But there was just the 4 of us in the room and I started looking around and I felt that I could see clearly and I’m like looking at the monitors and like “this is kind of weird ” I was conscious throughout the entire night but I don’t remember it, they did all sorts of tests throughout the night to figure out what happened and stuff. but, so I knew what had happened, I kind of knew, OK, this sucks or something pretty serious had happened. That’s about all I needed to know at that particular point. To figure out that some things are going to have to start to change. So I’m looking around and its clear and I’m like, I’m looking at everybody my mom and dad, I just woke up and there just like, “Oh hey Jeff,” and I’m like, “Hey, are my contacts still in?” And they all just looked at each other like I was nuts. Whats this kid worrying about his contacts for? (Laughing) FAORO: My contacts (Laughing) LICHON: Yeah, because that, at 15 those are some of the things your, your worried about I guess right? so I always say to people, “My first thought was OK, what’s next? Life goes on and what’s next, what do I have to do here? There’s still things that I have to worry about besides figuring out what the next step is.” I didn’t know what would come next, I didn’t know I would have to start learning again how to get into a car and get dressed, and shower and all that stuff, but I guess I was going to find out . But at any Page 12 �rate, I mentioned earlier that at out of high school some of my friends stuck around and also went to Delta or FSU and some of my friends went away, and then after like the first year some of my other friends went away and I started figuring out I was going to have to make some choices . Be a big boy, get grown up and determine what the next however many years of my life were going to be. Or even the next day sort of thing. So, started kind of freaking me out, I’m like, “I’m not quite feeling myself here,” it’s a little scary I mean that’s intimidating for anybody to figure out what they want do, let alone someone at 15, 16, 17 or 18 who just has an injury like I had or some sort of disclosure. So, at that point I’m like, “OK I think I need to start maybe talking to somebody, and sorting through these things,” so I started going to counseling for, I don’t know a year and a half maybe, it started out once or twice a week or so, and basically all that amounted to or people say, “ Oh your seeing a shrink,” Ok that’s there perspective or attitude. But the thing was I needed to figure things out, and what that allowed me to do was to unravel what I had wound myself up into, through my 15, 16 years of life, and actually disconnect myself from qualities that I felt were not gonna be beneficial to me not just from a personal perspective but from my injury perspective, what I mean? so, I mean there were a lot of things I found like the more negative I am the more tone I get in my legs the more stress I feel, and the more toll it takes and so the more I can figure out how to work around those moments or situations the better off I’m going to be in the long run. The more longevity I’ll be able to have because I think, a small part of me I think I have a self destructive personality in some (laughing), I like to have fun and party, get a little wild skiing or whatever stuff like that. Well but, at the same time your those things are going to be that much more detrimental to me if I were to get injured like I mentioned earlier, like if I injured my arms or my shoulder or whatever. And so, same thing mentally is that I had to kind of deconstruct myself a bit and not only did I relearn physical things like getting dressed and showering etc. but I also started to have to relearn myself, and why do I behave certain ways? maybe I’m upset or angry about my parents being divorced when I was in the 8th grade ? Well, OK, let go of that. Or maybe I’m angry because my friend didn’t let me sit shotgun (Laughing). Honestly, we store so much of that in our selves that we don’t even realize and I mean I literally no, I guess its not literally, but I pick myself apart to figure out what was going to be in my best interest to be as a person going forward, and so that was one of the most helpful and transformational periods in my life . I didn’t like start going to the top of the hill screaming hallelujah or anything like that or become like, I was born and raised Catholic and stuff I have very deep values and faith and what not and definitely there’s the aspect I feel that God helped me through a lot of the stuff but it wasn’t that fanatical. FAORO: You didn’t like see the light; you kind of had to way your way through it. LICHON: Yeah, I think we all have to help ourselves here and still like I mentioned have that accountability and responsibility for yourself, and I just wish that a lot more people could go through, go through that who maybe were heading or are heading in a direction that they may not want to see themselves going things like that, so yeah so it was definitely that was the most challenging mentally, but it was the best I think thing for me to go through because I was able to, it was like a rebirth in a lot of ways, and yeah so now as they say “the rest is history,” I mean I still now have, I mean I’m still the same person I was then, I just like I said I changed a lot of things about the way I act, react or how I Page 13 �respond to things or different situations and stuff like that. Which, I still get ticked off if I have a hard day at work (Laughing). FAORO: Yeah, like anyone. LICHON: Yeah my boss is so, getting on my case and stuff (Laughing). Sorry Eli (Laughing), no I challenge back (Laughing) but I choose my battles more now than I probably would have what I mean? So, yeah, I think a lot of where I am now is just kind of a testament to that period that I went through ? so, RYTLEWSKI: It really seems like with this injury it really hasn’t limited you at all, I mean not at all, I mean you still do things, your kind of like proving to people that look you has a disability. LICHON: I do things the way I have to do them, which are different from the way Mike does them, or you do them, or you do them, I mean I play hockey sled hockey. RYTLEWSKI: I want to play that sometime. LICHON: Dude, you have to come out its awesome, I’m trying to get a team together. RYTLEWSKI: I gotta do it sometime, you told me about it. LICHON: Yeah, they have a sled there so, I have my own hockey sled I have my own hand cycle, so I still go biking, I’m working on getting my own down hill sit ski for snow, and like I mentioned I’m going water skiing in a week, in a week from today because I want to get my own water ski, so I’ll have my own equipment so that when I go up with friends I don’t have to depend on an adaptive sports association, which is who I learned to ski with Michigan Adaptive Sports, I won’t have to depend on the weekends and the places that they go, I can go with friends now, skiing places, I can go water skiing when my friends get boats (Laughing). Or when I get one but things like that and I guess the hunting and fishing thing there’s still like my nber one passion there, and with hunting its water, and that’s kind of the hardest thing to do your going out in the marsh, your going out in a cut corn field, or your taking boats with lots of equipment, your setting decoys you’ve got your retriever with you, not your buddy your dog (Laughing) and things like that so I mean your pulling the canoe off your truck or off your trailer. I had a jet ski and I managed that completely by myself independently while I had it. loved it (Laughing) I miss it so much! I want it back (Laughing) and things like that so but I think when I get a house I’ll be able to get everything set up. Right now I have a condo, and its difficult like I want a dog so bad, we grew up with female black labs and that’s exactly what I’m going to get, but I’m not going to get it at a condo. Why did I get a condo? Well I came back from D.C. and I was starting a new position, I wanted I’ve been renting for ten and I wanted to not have to worry about exterior and keeping up with the lawn and stuff because I’m pretty meticulous like, I guess I’m anal about that stuff ? Its like, so I didn’t want to necessarily want to focus on that stuff, I had enough challenges but I want to get a house eventually. get my female black lab and then I’ll start acculating more stuff and all my hunting and fishing trust me I’ve thought through a lot of it already too. I need a pulley system to store boats up canoes and stuff like that up in the ceiling of the pull barn or in the garage, tie it to the wall and lower it down things like that. So, I’ve thought through a lot and now a lot more equipment is Page 14 �coming like I want to get an Argo, which is a six or eight wheel all-terrain but they are completely hand controlled. The thing is though the one I’m looking at is like $23,000 (Laughing) outfitted. RYTLEWSKI: Oh boy. LICHON: But, somewhere down the road but then like a lot more equipment like lawn mowers, riding lawn mowers are hand controlled now. I cut my dads grass with his Exmark, hop on that and go buzz around. It’s a feeling of freedom still being on a four-wheeler; I’ve had that since ‘97. I keep it up at my dads because he has a pull barn and lives out on the base so I can go out riding around there and stuff. But, I’ll have to figure all of that out myself eventually. (Ring) FAORO: Well we hit the hour mark at least. LICHON: So who do you have to turn this into now? RYTLEWSKI: Well we have to type it up and give it to our teacher. LICHON: Good luck with that, I was all over the place. FAORO: We do 20 minutes each, so we will break it up. RYTLEWSKI: We get to talk about you to the entire class. FAORO: Yeah LICHON: Sweet FAORO: Well we will be nice LICHON: Should I come in at the end with like a superman cape on or something (Laughing) Your gonna blow me up that big or something or Dahli Llama outfit or something (Laughing). RYTLEWSKI: You hungry? VALLENTINE: Some food LICHON: You want to eat, grab some grub, yeah I mean anymore questions or anything that comes up just I’ll give you my cell if you need to clarify or something. FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: Thank you for doing all of this LICHON: No problem RYTLEWSKI: I’m going to come play hockey with you sometime, all right? LICHON: Yeah, there you go. END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/61583fa63500093ada3dbcd8f2d47c3a.mp3 a0f7107fd8c92cd698c24a5631501254 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Lichon_Jeff Title A name given to the resource Jeff Lichon audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lichon, Jeff Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Faoro, Grace Holtrop, Cody Rytlewski, Eli Vallentine, Michael Description An account of the resource Jeff Lichon was born and raised in West Michigan. He discusses his struggles with disability after being in a car accident at age 15. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History People with disabilities--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-03 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a1bda66d14e6843e00210a641a2191b2.pdf 7da93ae59ade883956fd2b01e582b03b PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Terrence Harris Interviewers: David Bauer, Eric Pete, Stephanie Homan and Victoria VanDragt Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/23/2012 Biography and Description Terrence is African American and Atheist. He grew up in a neighborhood that is predominately White, Christian. He discusses religion. Transcript The person were interviewing today is Terrence Harris from Grandville, Michigan. We’re going to start by having Terrence tell him about himself. Let’s see. I grew up in Wyoming. shoot. I was born in Grand Rapids. I lived there for about three years, then came to Wyoming which is like a bio-center. Then, I lived there for about eleven years, then moved to good ole Grandville. that was probably when I would say I became the person who I am now because of moving to Grandville. Did you participate in any activities in Grandville, extracurriculars, sports? Yep! I played basketball. I actually got cut from the 7th grade team in Wyoming when I was in Newhaugh. Which is pretty sucked, (Laughter). But, actually I liked Grandville after I made the team in eighth grade. So, I played basketball in high school for all four years, and I played track in high school for two years. How was the atmosphere for sports in Grandville? The atmosphere for sports? Well, pretty good. Not too bad. I would say as far as during the games or during the practices. Like what do you mean? Sure. Now lets just jump right in here. We’re interviewing you because you may have been discriminated. Can you tell us why you may have discriminated in a community like Grandville? Ah. (Laughter). It’s a funny thing and its ironic at the same time. Because when I went to Grandville I was instantly like because I was black which is very, very weird. (Laughter). It’s like “oh, you’re black you’re cool”, and I was like what’s up. (Laughter). I don’t know if it was more discrimination than just an annoying stereotype. I would probably say that was the biggest thing in Grandville. Was stereotypes and, then once certain people get close to you, like a lot of my white friends, when they get to a certain Page 1 �comfort level, then they’ll start to say certain discriminatory things that does not sound so hurtful since I know them. I guess they were just testing the waters to see how I’d react., eighth grade I was very immature. Ninth grade, I was very immature. Tenth grade, ehh. Eleventh grade, I just didn’t give a fuck anymore (Laughter). Twelfth grade, is the person I have become now. Did you ever call your friends out on things they said that may have seemed discriminatory? Let’s see. I would say I have a few times. I will try to not let it get to me. I wanna keep my composure and let them know that I’m not gonna flip out based on something like that. But, you know, after doing a lot of research, a lot of Africans will explode on a situation because of a lost identification of themselves. So, when they’re being branded, you know, something negative, they’ll reject it of course in an ignorant type of way. Like, so I saw this film and this black chick was tripping on a professor because he cannot prove why evolution kills black people. Did you see it? I heard. I actually was gonna watch it but my video player wasn’t working. I saw that and I was like oh my God are you serious and this is why people think all black people are the same because chicks like this. Just put her in jail (Laughter). So, even though some of the way treated had positive connotation did it bother you that you were treated differently at all? Oh yeah! Even though it appeared to be positive? Oh yeah! Yep! There is always gonna be that like üh why is it me type factor. Kinda playing the victims card. it was kind of more of a them getting under skin but I won’t let them get under my skin type of thing. I’m not gonna show that it’s bothering me. So, I’m just gonna keep it cool, keep calm, collective; you know, stuff like that. What were some things that your friends said that may have offended you without them knowing it. Oh man! Just the typical things. Fried chicken, big kool-aid, watermelon. I don’t like watermelon. A lot of people get surprised when I tell them that. Like people say, “why don’t you sag your pants?”. I don’t wanna sag my pants! (Laughter). And that’s why! Does every black person have to sag their pants (Laughter) in order to be black? It seems like there is a certain level of ignorance you have to be in order to earn the title of being black which I was like I’m not gonna snoop down to that level, because I plan on being successful. One of the biggest things that drove me to where I am now, is I told myself when I was twelve years old I would not be another black statistic. You know, going to jail, selling drugs, ain’t got nothing, hardly ain’t got a job. I said flick that! Why would I want to choose that way. So it sounds like you’re almost using your race as a motivating factor for you? Oh yeah. If I were to grow up in Wyoming, if I were to stay there I wouldn’t be the same. I probably would be just like another person that went to Wyoming Park. Not saying that there is not successful Page 2 �people or successful Africans that come or have came from Park, but Grandville was a huge motivator for me. What prompted the move for your family? My mom wanted a better educational system. Wyoming Park did not provide it and my mom saw that and said I guess we’ll go to Grandville, and I was like I don’t want to and she said too bad! Let’s go! (Laughter). All of my friends were in Wyoming, so I didn’t want to do a complete new start, but my mom saw the opportunity and she went out and decided for my sister and myself, and I’m very grateful that she did. Because I don’t know, to be honest I’d probably just be in jail if I would have stayed in Park. A lot of my friends in Park are in jail, selling drugs, ain’t doing much with shit to put it in blatancy terms. I’m a very blunt person. I tell it like it is. I don’t hold back. If you see my Facebook statuses, I don’t hold back. You know Eric. Very true! I don’t play. I’m gonna tell it like it is. Because I don’t believe in holding stuff back. Tm not gonna get to the core issue if, you know, I’m softening it up a bit. We’ll touch on Facebook later (Laughter). Now staying on the subject of education, have teachers ever treated you differently or made assumptions about you. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I would say even a little bit in Wyoming too actually. The thing is, with the teachers I didn’t like, it was kind of like I’m gonna try to work with you, but if you be disruptive a few times I’m gonna brand you, point you out every time, and get you nowhere! (Laughter). And I was a hard headed little boy. Oh my gosh. I feel sorry for the teachers that dealt with me. I’m not even gonna lie. I was a hard headed, knuckle-headed, bad...whatever. I didn’t care and then it carried on to seventh grade when I left, came to Grandville, and there were a few teachers. I’m not sure, I don’t know. Have you ever had Ms. Badgearna? No I don’t know. It was very I think she just hated us all. I mean she hated everyone equally. You guys can blank that one out (Laughter). No, Ms. Badgeama was really cool teacher. I saw her a few years ago and all smiles, nothing bad. High School, wasn’t that bad. I think,, they treat everybody just like it was a college course. Do your work or you’re not gonna get shit. Just plain and simple. High School wasn’t too bad. I think probably Elementary was worst. Would you like to go into Elementary at all? Elementary. Oh man! I remember one memory I have is; a friend of mine, Erika reminded me of this story the other day. I was in class, her name was Ms. Norman, and I just saw her at my job last week. Funny that that happened. Erika, a friend of mine, last week Wednesday told me about that story and reminded. The very next day, I went to my job and I went to get some tea because I love getting tea, free tea, you know come on! And I go to my job and saw her and said holy shit, we were just talking about you last night. And what ended up happening is she, I don’t remember much, like I said I was Page 3 �immature. You know, I had discipline but I chose not to show that I had that discipline. I wanted to act out. I was a little kid. I was a little black kid. Not too many little black kids, you know, stick out, can’t blend in. You’re already not gonna blend it when you’re black (Laughter). I remember I told her, I was like, ‘Man, screaming, you’re just doing this because I’m black”! And I was screaming and I was like crying and shit, but I don’t remember too much but I probably did that. Let’s see, we actually had a black principal in seventh grade, which wasn’t too bad. I think that was one of the only incidents that I’ve had. There were a few others of course, but I don’t remember it too much. Any incidents with coaches? Coaches. Or assumptions? Ahh, no. Fifth grade; there was actually like six black people on the team my fifth grade year. First time I played basketball. seventh grade, nope. I just didn’t make the team seventh grade because I missed the first day of practice. Eight grade I made the team so no prejudice remarks there. Then ninth grade throughout senior year, I performed. So, I don’t think there was much of any prejudice or....I was gonna say prejudice and racism at the same time (Laughter). Pracism! (Group Laughter) Going outside the walls of Grandville high school, in the city of Grandville itself, going to stores, gas stations, anything like that? (Laughter). Was it different for you or tough for you? Oh! I love it! I love when I went to stores in Grandville man! Those mother flickers always think I’m about to steal something. (Laughter). I come up in the store, and I carry my backpack with me everywhere because I’m a huge reader. I read anytime. You never know when you’re gonna get a book. You can be in the store when someone’s you know robbing it and I’ll just kickback and read a book; your ass is going to jail (Laughter). You know I carry bags with me everywhere... .or books in my bag. Oh man, and Grandville’s horrible. It’s horrible. It’s extremely prejudice. God! (Laughter). I can tell you stories of my brothers man, all throughout. It’s,, you gotta watch the eyes, and you can watch it if you’re by any African American; watch like other people’s eyes and you’ll start to see them, or use your peripheral vision, if you’re really good at that, and you’ll see them tend to look maybe do it again, look again and they’ll just do a little of it a few times. I think it’s subconscious. I don’t think they try to do it, but when Africans are portrayed on T.V. as nothing but thugs, gangsters, criminals, drugdealers, thieves, you know, of course they’re gonna think that then. That’s how they portray us in the media. So, that’s the first thing that they think. Any particular stories that you would wanna share? That stands out? Page 4 �Oh, that stands out?, I wouldn’t say Walmart. They pretty much hate everybody. It’s so depressing there. My sister used to work there. It was so depressing! She’d come home with stories and stories. I would say, probably like the local stores. Not too much the local stores. They have to have, or I think they have to have diversity there. So, they just deal with it. Oh! Jenison, good old Jenison. Oh yeah! Everything in Jenison. I ain’t even gonna label something. Everything in Jenison! A little bit in Hudsonville; not too bad. Not that I’ve seen so far because I’m hardily ever out there. I would say those three areas, and my house is right dabbed in the middle too. Did your family experience any of the discrimination or prejudice like right when you moved in to like the neighborhood for example? Not when I moved to when I first moved in, oh man those were probably the worst places I’ve ever lived actually. Not because of prejudice but the landlord was just awful, horrible. In Grandville? Yeah, Grandville! That was the first place we stayed there. I don’t think I’ve ever seen my mom that mad before. My mom is a black Christian lady. (Laughter). They’re supposed to be happy, you know, according to what you see on T.V. of course, and (Laughter). Man, it was horrible. My mom. I was like, “Mom, if you want, I will find somebody, get some drugs, put them in his mailbox and call the cops on him so he can go to jail. But that was just because he was such a shitty landlord. I would say, I don’t think I had any problem with like prejudice. It was more the stereotypes. Of course, you know, we had a few ladies my neighbor downstairs, she used stereotypes. She was like, she said she was trying to hook me up with her daughters, and she was like my daughters real cute and she likes black men. I was like, ok! Cool! I’m ironically black. Did you say that because I am black? How about, she likes an intelligent man. A man who knows how to handle his business; that’s mature; that can handle his own. Nahh, she just would like a black a man. (Laughter). Stuff like that. Like I said, it would just get under my skin, or not anymore. But, I would just brush stuff like that off. Not so much at the place I live now. Oh my gosh! There was this guy who was Hispanic that made the best steak though! Oh my gosh! His name was Robbie too. His steaks were so good! He got deported, but I was so mad, I was so mad. (Laughter). Where do you live now? I live right down the street from where I used to live; Brook Meadow. It’s not too bad. yeah actually that place is not too bad at all actually; it’s a pretty nice place. I don’t think I’ve dealt with anything dramatic there. Now, we met up and our group met up and talked a little bit before this interview, and you told us about a story about what happened in East Grand Rapids. Oh yeth! East Grand Rapids. Yes! Can you tell us about that? (Laughter). Oh man! We came. It was my brother and I. Will, and another guy named Will whom I met for the first time that day; a mutual friend of ours, Sky, and we’re in East Town, you know, just chilling at Page 5 �2 o’clock in the morning. And then all of a sudden, you see like one cop roll by. No big deal. You know, they’re just chilling. They’re always watching the area. Then, another one comes. It’s like 2:01. Another comes. A few more, wow! Something’s going on tonight. (Laughter). So we, you know are just joking around, stating the obvious, but joking about it. And,, they’re just there! They’re not bothering us, they’re just there, and that was the most annoying part. I hate when like cops try to be, like they know that you know that they’re watching, but they’re like you can’t do anything about it. Watch me not do something about it! (Laughter). Man, if I knew my rights back then I would’ve been like excuse me officer is there a problem? No? Pardon me for saying this but get your ass up out of here, or something like that. Man, I think someone probably called the cops on us. We were just chilling though. No, nothing. Weren’t making any trouble, just two in the morning; nothing! But they feel the need for four PT Cruisers or bring like the SWAT team or something. Mr. President, Mr. President! (Laughter). On the subject of that, have you ever had any run-ins with the law, or have you ever had to deal with police officers? Oh my gosh! Look at Grandville man! Of course! Of course! I hate Grandville cops! I’ll get that on the record. I hate Grandville cops. They are the most prejudice mother fuckers I’ve ever met. I got, I say that and when I say that it bs me so much because that gets under my skin. They take their power for abuse so much, and all the one’s I’ve met so far are complete pricks, assholes, and they’ve probably crash their cars a few times from being pricks. I remember let’s see, my brother Carlos was with me when this happened. We were just crossing a bridge and this guy in a PT Cruiser pulls us over and tells us that someone called the cops on us for throwing a rock over the highway. I said, none of us threw a rock over the highway. Backup comes. You know, of course they’ll come for a few black people. Check this out too. Side-note, when you see someone get pulled over, check to see if they’re black. More than likely, you’ll see another cop with them, but if they’re white, only one car. I’ve never seen that happen. I’ve never been around for that so far, anytime. Just watch, Just watch! But, so, the guy pulls up and they’re trying to t us against each other saying all these lies and stuff, saying he said this and he said that. They were trying to get us to commit to something that we did not do., something that I am not a fan of at all, you know, good ole divide and conquer technique. That was one experience. Another one was when it was the whole fam. Me, my brother Carlos, Will, Mo, other Carlos, my cousin, my sister, a few other people, and we were pretending. Now we went to Steak and Shake. We always go to Steak and Shake. They know us there. We practically pay the bills. We went there that often. We pretended to jump our friend Will because you know that’s how we do; we always play around. We actually went to Steak and Shake that night because all of our hearts were broken. My ex cheated on me. My boy, my brother Mo, his ex cheated on him. Will, he, well he was just happy. He was always the happy one! He’s always happy! Never gets anything bad happen to him. I hate that. Well I guess I don’t hate it, but fuck him! (Laughter). But so we were there for that reason, and later on that night, like 3 PT Cruisers, I’m talking about spotlights, flashlights, yelling. Like, dude that’s not necessary! They,, I guess someone in Steak and Shake called saying that we jumped someone and ran, but I was like no! They know us. They know us. We tipped pretty good there too We stopped tipping that night. (Laughter). But yeah they were a bunch of complete pricks. I got pulled over No! This actually happened a month ago. I was walking home from work. I saw a PT Cruiser drive down and then t around and drive back. Page 6 �I’ve seen them six times by the time I walked over the highway. Then, I saw another one because I was taking a note of the number behind the truck, and it was a different one. They went by another three times. Then, when was just getting across the street from where I lived, I saw another one come by and I was like really. I called my mom and I was like, if you don’t see my tonight that’s because I’m in jail about to beat some cops ass! Like that is not even necessary to go back and forth almost ten times. hat’s just, that’s just, I don’t know! Makes abrother wanna really do something! That, that, can you imagine how enraged I felt? To be you know kind of pointed out that strongly. Fuck the Grandville cops! So how many times, have you counted having any problems with police total? Psht, 8 that I can say off the top of my head. How many times have you guys actually done anything wrong? Once And what was that? smokin and drivin. Only time. What happen, would you say you were treated (Yeah) worse because... Actually no that was the nicest cop I have ever met from Grandville. He said he was going to let me go, until his prick boss showed up. And I know when he who he was too, he was the other one, he was the guy that pulled me over that night at Steak and Shake. He was the one that was yelling at us. I remember because of his mustache. (snicker) Yeah that was him, wow, I just now realized that. Buth yea it is, it is besides Grand Rapids cops, Grandville has to be the worst. What about Grand Rapids police makes them worse? I would say because their downtown, were a lot of the Africans are. And they, I feel like they have such a mindset that whenever you see a black dude in the hood, they say ‘get him, he is up to no good’. Grandville give at least one percent of the downtown, at least, Er,, Grand Rapids cops none. Yeah. When I actually went to jail,h, last year forh smoking and drivin, heh, one of the guys that I was with in my holding cell he said that we wasn’t doin nothing. He just got,h, for jay walkin. Jay walkin, Two in the morning. Two in the morning! Jay walking! For real? Take him to jail for that? WOAH! I didn’t know that you get pulled over for that. Haha I thought the most that they could give you was like a ticket. Like a fine. I think he didn’t know his rights, I think that what it was. I think heh,h, did a little selfincriminating himself, maybe he had a pass, maybe he had a warrant or something. But,h, but for jay walking. What is that? So go to jail, I was like dang man. When did you start paying attention to your rights and like your experiences with the cops and being able to stick up for yourself? Page 7 �Umm it was, man, it was like last year, soh, I would say after the judge after he told me aft... I would say, NO! it was my first probation check-up. I just got off probation yesterday actually Wooh! Congratulations. Thank you very much, never wanna do that system again.I would say right after probation because you know in my mind, Yeah. I should say in my mind I chose to justify what I did. You know that I shouldn’t happen driving while I was high but still don’t let, don’t even let me get started on why it should be illegal. Don’t let me get started. I will run, I will run every single fact. You know to Chad, who was my probation officer, why marijuana should not be legal. Or Illegal or at least decriminalized because it is just a herb. It will beat out the pharmacy industry (Snap) just like that, because you can grow it. Boom. There goes all these pharisaical industries that making millions of dollars off that. You know to keep us sick constantly. Now how many deaths has marijuana had, Zero. How many from overdosing on pills? I can’t count on my hands because I don’t have that much. What they say like ten people, or at least like 10 people die every hour from overdosing on pills? That’s a fucked up statistic right there. NowI started paying attention to after that, that mindset. And I was like, h something’s not right. Why are we, why am I kind of in this bondage right here. This is a system set up to fail. Not just for Africans, but for minorities. Or I wouldn’t say minorities because the people who concerned this land was minorities themselves. So I would say the natives. System set up to enslave the natives once more. Because Christopher Columbus he came here and how many Native Americans did he kill? Whoo. And then they want to label them the illegal immigrants. For real. Haha. So after that, after that I was like I need to learn my rights because the constitutional, or well our constitutional rights that we have or so called constitutional rights, I need to know those. Because I have no idea that I could have told the officer, no do you have a warrant to search my car officer. If I would have said that I would have been good. Constitutional rights. Did not know that at all. So I was like I need to start educating myself on the land that I live. If this is, if this is really a system set up to fail for myself I need to know, I need to learn the rules, I need to learn how to play the game. So at least learn how the game works and thankfully a manager at Art Van thath, that helped me understand that. I was like, yeah learn my rights, I learned a whole bunch. flaha. I learned a lot and that is what, now that I am off probation,I know my rights. And I know what I can and cannot do. And I cannot say, and I will exercise every single rights that I have. Haha That’s so good because I cannot say that I, that I know my rights, to where if! was pulled over or something like that. I kinda wondered the same thing like I didn’t know any of my rights at all. Until I would say some time last year me and a couple buddies were just drinking in the dorms and we didn’t even have to let the cops in. And like they were saying all this stuff like oo you have to let us in like making us like rethink like what we were doing like you have to let us in. Like if you don’t right now we will break down the door. We were like shit. You know they came in there we were being completely cooperative and gave them all the alcohol we had. And they still gave us all MIPs and shit. Mhm. So I mean form like that moment on we were all like shit we need to learn like all the stuff about underage drinking and all that. Just so that like all that stuff doesn’t happen again.uu. I mean I agree with you, I mean like it is almost like not just for minorities but the system sets up to fail you just... Page 8 �Anyone who is ignorant, anyone. I would say defiantly to that to, that was like abE. Like when you go to parties, you know people are freaking out. Oh my god cops are here! Cops are here! Everybody runnin, just dippin out. Yea and what they don’t know is unless they have a warrant they can’t do anything. Exactly. Yeah you give them permission to come in. That’s a whole different topic right there. Haha right. Shifting gears, you originally, yeah we are just going to forget Segway’s. You when back to Grandville High School recently and an interesting observation you told us about a few weeks ago, about the stair case. Oh yea man, we had, we called it the cool, it was where all the cool cats went. You know. Wasn’t even discriminating against no blacks whites man. You know blacks are supposed to skip because they don’t like to go to class. Minorities come and so we are all just chillin back over there probably abouthh two and a half months ago they sealed it up. And I know that I was because it was all a bunch of minorities there you know blacks whites also. and everybody was just chilling there. I would say it was race motivated but covered up very well. You know just like they always do with everything. Haha. It is very, you know it is a distraction. Well why is it a distraction? Because you just a talking too loud about standing there. Some people have KCDC they get out of class and they would just go and chill you know like right below the stairs. You know it’s not that much of a distraction, kind of like when I I think that they were afraid. Actually I think that some of the people on the staff were afraid of a littleethnicity. I have like when I have a keffiyeh I don’t know if you ever saw it but I have like a keffiyeh wrapped around just like this you know it is cold. Seven in the morning ya’ll got, ya’ll told me I had to be here at seven in the morning. I am going to wear something to keep myself warm. I’m sorry, I don’t wanna come here in the first place. Hah. Who wants to go to high school at seven in the morning. I remember Mr. Vanderslice started chasing me down because I was like no I’m not taking it off. NO! It was a shirt, it was a shirt on top of my head. That’s what it was. I had a shirt on top of my head. That’s stupid! That’s what I am saying! I had a shirt on my head, and one of the ambassadors, chased me all the way to my class just to yell at me. And you best believe that I did not just step back. I was yelling right back. Thankfully my mind, the thought in my mind was to check out the rules. You know, understand everysingle rule, and use that against him. I was like naw there aint nothing against that code book. Your wrong, it does not say that I cannot wear something on my head that’s not seven. Lets see school starts at 7:15 and it aint 7:15 yet. So I don’t have to take the shirt off. Couldn’t do nothing about it. School started at 7:50 7:50 yeah. Couldn’t do nothing about it, I was like ppht, what are you going to do? Violate it I dare you! Page 9 �So was the anything about the shirt, or was it just a regular shirt? Plain old white t-shirt man. I just wearin it on my head, just wearin it on my head. Now moving on to the keffiyeh. Which is? Which is Middle Eastern, soyou know automatic I am Muslim. So people think automatically he is a terrorist. You know lets get, it out of the way. Anytime anyone is wrapping a keffiyeh around their head, in fast the wrap it around their heads because there’s deserts snow storms, So in order to keep the snow, ornot snow Sand storms Stand storms yeah, so they want to keep the sand out of their face. Well its Michigan, it snows I wanna keep the snow out of my face. So I used to water that tornm, when I walked in, everybody’s lookin at me. Whats he doin? Muslim. He is a terrorist. Because that all the, that’s all the media labels them. So we see Muslim terrorist, let’s be honest, let’s be real. Hahah. That’s all they see. They made a big deal about that. I was like yo, it’s not 7:50 yet. I’m not taking it off. You know this is a, I’m not Muslim or Islam, buth I do respect their culture. It is part of my history because remorse. So as part of my history, I embrace all of my culture, not just a little bit of it. So, they couldn’t do nothing about that either. Fight the power. Yeah you mentioned like the media, and how minorities seem to be misrepresented in it.do you have any thoughts about how that could change or, if it can change? Oh man was have to go to the core then because how that started was actually a break off from the Crow laws. That is how they got that in there. They intertwined Jim Crows laws with the media so that whenever someone sees a black person the automatically, you know subconsciously he is up to no good. Yeah like stereotypes Yeah exactly. He is automaticallyh, you know a grand banger. He is automatically high as hell right now. He is black, he is supposed to smoke weed. Dark lips, big dark lips you know. Lie Obama, what is it with Obama, they said that he had weed lips or something like that. I don’t remember, but they they put that, they attached that stereotype to him as well. In order to beat something like that you gotta take down the media because they have control of the mass. Everybody watches TV, everybody watches TV. So if everyone is tuned in on this psychological brainwash machine. Of course everybody is going to think that black person, he aint up to no good, no good at all. So I would say yeah, to, I like to get to the very core of everything I don’t like to,racism isn’t here you know it is 2012 we all matured (In a sarcastic voice). Really? Did you just tune into the Zimmerman case? Why aint he in jail? He shot and killed a 17 year-old who had a bag of skittles. For one the dude was 28 years-old. He shot him dead in a gated community, which was predominantly white in Florida, And why isn’t he in jail. This kid was 17 years-old and he is dead, isn’t that murder? Supposedly he is the head watchman of the, you know the supervising, you know that watch ting. So to say that racism isn’t still here in the United States, that is Page 10 �ridiculous. Racism is still here. It is just in a different way. It is just like energy. Energy was never created of destroyed, it was transformed. Racism was BOOM right in your face, now it’s you know transformed into this thing called the media and I lables every single race, not just blacks, Latinos, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, even American, everything! They have got a label for everyone. And why are we trying to be labels, im not trying to be labeled. I wanna created my own identity. That’s the problem, nobody has their own identity. On the subject of identity, earlier you said you talked about stuff that was part of your heritage. You are obviously very proud of you African American heritage. And one way you show it is through your Facebook name. It is very unique. Would you like to tell us what it is? Oh yea that’s why I tell people anytime they wanna find me on Facebook, you will not find me. I will find you. Hahah. My name on Facebook is Brotha Taffiti Savo Hakeema Jafarr . And the reason why I chose that name was it is the name Hakeema is Swahili for wisdom, and I have that tattooed on my back from shoulder blade to shoulder blade. I believe in that so heavily because without wisdom, or the name Taffiti means knowledge seeker and Savo means order and Hakeema is wisdom so you know with the right knowledge and wisdom comes order, creating your identity basically. And that propelled me into what I want to do. It gave me a new foundation for myself. how to give like a new label for myself. And not even a label but to just know who I am period. You know, growing up as a child where are all of the black figures. There are hardly and African doll figures. Identity crisis right there. You know you want to get your niece a doll, but there’s only white ones. Not saying there is anything wrong with white ones, but why give a white one to a black one who is constantly seeing all this propaganda against blacks. You know, she has no idea who she is, she is getting this false identification of herself. So just right away that shows the importance of a diverse. You know be a little diverse. Why have too much ofjust one thing? Spread it out, shave to love. You know? Share the wealth, or at least get another black baby doll damn. Put that on the store shelves jeeze (laughing). Just change it up a little you know, that all a brotha can ask. There is one other thing about you that makes you unique. Especially for Grandville is that you are Atheist.and Facebook is the biggest, most notable way that you talk about it. Have you, has anyone ever called you out on it? Oh man we have a different idea that goes against the traditional or mainstream way, no everybody believes this, but that one idea that is controversial to everyone else. It was like what’s up with this guy. What’s wrong with him?I wasespecially, I wouldn’t say. Well I learned actually that there are different forms of Atheism. There is an Atheism that does not believe in a god at all, or super natural things. And there isthe atheism that does not believe in the three main traditional religions, the Abrahamic religions, Islamic, Christianity and Judaism. That came for a lost identification of myself. I grew up as a Christian, you know my mom told me that I was going to church, I was going to like it, no if ands or buts. As a little kid I was like I have to, and ah I went not because I wanted to but because I had to. And it never gave me a change tochose what I wanted to believe in. and the problem with a lot of religions, the problem I would say is just based on my research, a lot of people do not do research on religions or what they believe. A lot of people go to history. People don’t wanna research the dark things, the positive and Page 11 �negative. Everybody is looking as the positive, which is great cool, but if you’re not looking at the negative... Well remember if you do not know you history, then you are going to repeat it. People repeating history because of their lack of knowledge, with is also the Facebook thing. Every time a see Taffiti is motivates me. Knowledge seeker you know, that’s what I am. Keep studying, keep reading, keep bringing books everywhere. Nothing is going to stop me. And that was one of the biggest thing I ever had to do. Was let go of my belief of Christianity because it was a grips of fear if you do not believe in a doctrine, you are going to hell. Who wants to go to hell? Somebody raise they hands if they wanna go to hell. (nobody moves) Exactly! That was the biggest thing for me, I had to let go of the fear of risking my sole that is eternal in an eternal place where you die even though you are already dead. You di even more I guess. So I did a lot of research of the translations of hell You know all the translations of Hebrew of actually Arabic to Hebrew to Latin to English; you know studying all those words because I am a big studier. I study every single word, I don’t do broad things. If I am going to check Genesis 101 I will check every single word in every single translation. I will get the idea, I am not just going to go skating by. That’s what most people do, well I have the King James version so. Well did you know King James was a really wicked dude. He performed bestiality, he was extremely in to.. I forgot what it was. But the dude rewrote the bible to keep his throne in power. Now anybody that reuses, or rewrite something against his or against his people or against his power, not going to be like woah what did he change so he could keep his power? A lot of people change things, I like to get to the source, like I said to the core. And I found my identity you know the furthest that I have researched so far, which is Egypt, also the Comets. The traveled for Ethiopia to Sudan, followed the Nile River and the landed in Egypt, or Comet at the time. And that is the my belief system because that is the very core that I have seen so far and it may change. I love when my, what I believe in is challeneged, because that gives me the chance to learn because I get to see another area. So that yeah especially going to Grandville to, you know there morals are all white and Christian. But my joey spiritually has not started since last year. No it was probably about a year and a half. So I would say if I want to Grandville High School with the knowledge that I have now shit would be completely different. I would probably be in college right now. Well I would be in college actually right now if I didn’t break my wrist. Was there a certain like factor that like caused you to start studying and following Atheism? Umm I would say that, I would say that I am very passionate about the black community If there is somebody that doesn’t know this I love who I am. I love being black. I love being who I am not say that being not black isn’t cool. That is just who I am and I would say that I was I questioned what is wrong with the black community today. We are not educated, we do not know our own history, I cannot even find or think of any history class that taught me that starting civilizations in Africa. I had to figure that out on my own. They didn’t tell me that my ancestors where ancient Egyptians were astrology came forum, and mathematics, and a lot of the Greeks got their information from Ancient Egypt. Where Plato always referred to Ancient Egypt. I was not told that a lot of the three religions are deep rooted in African traditions. So I questioned that. And I didn’t really have a bone to pick with Christianity so I was really upset that no one ever told me what was really going on. Because my mom didn’t know, she didn’t ask those questions. My mom actually grew up on Rockford, Oh my god my whole family actually grew up in Rockford. Now they are my age, the grew up in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s so I don’t think that they Page 12 �had time to think about that, They were having a hard enough time just getting through the day in Rockford. So I questioned my community, and the thing is they were mentally brainwashed through generations and generations and generations of slavery. A lot of Africans don’t know that their ancestors were already here before Columbus was here. I’m not talking about the Native American. I’m talking about the Africans that traveled from Africa to America and was here before Christopher Columbus came here and slaughtered them all. There’s a Holocaust that’s worst then the Jewish Holocaust. They didn’t teach me that. I can’t even tell you how many of millions of millions Columbus killed. This mother fucker got his own national day! What is going on? I’m celebrating Christopher Columbus in elementary school and I ain’t learn that this dude killed how many of my people? Did that go over your head America? (Laughter). Oh yeah by the way you know. After that I was just like wow this is bullshit I wanna learn a lot. That’s what did it. That’s what sparked that into me and I was like I gotta make my brother and sisters, I have taken it on my own personal mission to educate as many Africans, brothers and sisters, as we can. Not limited to Africans but that’s my field of study right now. So that’s what I have to focus because if one particular group is lacking you know in success and everything then that creates an off balance you know? If I can be the foundation or the starting black for that to happen then cool you know. That’s very interesting that you say that you wanna try to educate as many African Americans as you can. What means or steps are you taking to do that? Right now? Learning. Only thing I can do. I can’t teach them if I don’t know them yet. So I have to learn every single thing or as much as I can at least. The history, all the contradictions, even what I believe I have to study the contradictions against that so I can make sure that’s the right information. If Tm learning you know everything started in Africa you know blah blah blah, and Tm being hard headed for that then if Tm not having any information to go against that, then I’m just blindly following this just because I’m solely for it but if I have you know a pro and a con, you know and I can make a wise or intelligent decision based on that fact you know then I’m pretty good for it. You know ask me anything that might contradict and I’ll probably know the answer to it and I can probably overcome that projection because that’s what I study. Have any of your friends that you have shared some of your knowledge with, what is their reaction to it? Are they interested in it? Do the believe it? Man, let’s see. I would say who? More specifically my brothers and sisters or like white friends I have? Yeah Let’s start with family I guess Oh I’m always educating my mom and sister constantly. That’s kind of why they’re upset that I’m moving because I have studied a lot I think and there hasn’t been a day in the past two years that I have not been studying. I am a hard core studier. I have a fiery passion to learn and a lot people don’t do that. Especially in the black community it is considered geeky or nerdy, or they will call you one of them smart niggers. What does that mean? I’m a smart what? So it’s not cool to know you shit but it’s cool to be in jail acting all stupid, shooting you own brothers and sisters, calling your sisters hoes, bitch. Calling them Page 13 �all these names that aren’t necessary, but yet that’s cool? For real? Dog you’ve been brain washed so good and I’ve been teaching my whole family and my mom and sister. Every time I have family come home from Georgia I always give a little bit more knowledge you know. Even going out to my brothers, my brother Carlos I’m always teaching him. Sharing stuff that I’ve learned. Even if it contradicts that he’s learned but that’s the best part you know? Not forcing stuff that I know in his head, but going check this information, what have you learned about this? Does it seem right? Does it contradict? Let’s get an answer for this. My brother Will, smartest mother fucker I know so far. I think it’s because he’s half black and half white. I think that’s what it is. He has the perfect balance. (Laughter). He’s very crucial, fucking hard headed, he has facts. He’s been home schooled actually. He’s been reading since he was ten years old. I’ve only been reading, legitimately reading, for like two years now. So I have an eight year gap to catch up to him. Motivation. Pure motivation right there. What about when you tell your friends of what you know? Black or white. Leave that to Facebook my friend. Facebook, like I said I don’t hold back. I say it like it is. Why hold back you know? I’m not gonna put like a band aid solution on things I’m just gonna tell it raw. In my past I’ve been very stupid and ignorant, and one-sided with my posts just because I was in that mind where I was rebellious or I was rebellious to you know Christianity just point blank, but that’s because I’ve always known you know? I’ve only met you know certain Christians that are like love Jesus, stop saying blah, stop smoking blah. devil is real blah, you’re going to hell you know? Well fuck you. Some were my family. Some were my friends. So it was a really tough time for me. So after that, I was like hmm let me re-think this? You know, I’m acting just like the people that I do not like. So i completely re-switched the way I come out with information and it’s actually helping out. People are actually seeing it from my point of view now. Questioning. Why? Why is everything like this? That’s the big thing, questioning. You don’t question, you won’t get answers, and when you question everything until you can’t question why no more. There you go. That’s the core. When you tell a religious person that you’re Atheist what’s the typical response from them? Oh, you know I don’t even tell people I’m Atheist. Actually, it’s so funny I was on the bus before and there was this white dude and I don’t what put, what, I don’t know. It was just out of nowhere. I’m just on the bus listening to my music. You know, jamming. Out of nowhere he goes are you Christian? Im like no. Why? And this is in my time when I’m like completely anti- Christian and I’m like blah blah I don’t wanna hear it. Stop forcing this shit. Get out of my face. Stop! Stop! You know, he was just like talking about Jesus stuff like that. I was like cool, cool. Stop forcing it down. Stop. I’m gonna tell you a little bit something about yourself or about your religion and you’re not gonna like it so chill, and he got off the bus. See, I said it nicely, you know, but that kinds of like what I was giving him. I dropped a little bit of knowledge and he couldn’t even understand what I was talking about. A lot of people don’t know about Jesus. What is Jesus? Jesus comes from, if you look at the history of words, Jesus comes from the Greek god Zeus and Jahova, the Hebrew word for god. They put Jahova and Zeus together and it’s Jesus. That wasn’t his name because he spoke in Arabic at that time. Arabic is basically Hebrew. The Hebrew word that they translated from Christ which was Greek for one who’s anointed his real name was Oshua. There’s no J in the Hebrew Bible so how can his name be Jesus if there was no J in the Hebrew Bible? Oshua was his name and he didn’t even know that. So I was like people don’t research their own history. They don’t look in those dark corners. Page 14 �Going back a little, back into the family issue, you talked about earlier how your mom is a dedicated Christian. More specifically, how did she deal with you converting to Atheism? I told her gently, slowly, very calmly. Me and my mom are extremely close. She is the only female who has not broken my heart. So I’m like big ups to you Mom. Single parent you know? My dad’s out doing his own shit. He was not a big factor in my life except for buying me a lot of shoes. Go dad! Thanks for the shoes. Like I said, my mom and I are really close so wow, that was tough. I was like, I don’t know how to tell you this Mom, but I don’t believe in what you believe in anymore, but I still love you, but I’m not going to hell because I know this. Don’t judge. But, you know, it was not tough, it was really hard actually. That was the probably the toughest three months I’ve ever had, was constantly thinking, how can I tell her without being extremely upset. My mom cried because Kia got a tattoo. Now, she is definitely not gonna like when I tell her I don’t believe in Christianity. I was like holy shit. So you know Kia has a daughter. Beautiful, beautiful daughter. So how many times, have you counted having any problems with police total? Psht, 8 that I can say off the top of my head How many times have you guys actually done anything wrong? Once And what was that? smokin and drivin. Only time What happen, would you say you were treated (Yeah) worse because... Actually no that was the nicest cop I have ever met from Grandville. He said he was going to let me go, until his prick boss showed up. And I know when he who he was too, he was the other one, he was the guy that pulled me over that night at Steak and Shake. He was the one that was yelling at us. I remember because of his mustache. (snicker) Yeah that was him, wow, I just now realized that. Buth yea it is, it is besides Grand Rapids cops, Grandville has to be the worst. What about Grand Rapids police makes them worse? I would say because their downtown, were a lot of the Africans are. And they, I feel like they have such a mindset that whenever you see a black dude in the hood, they say ‘get him, he is up to no good’. Grandville give at least one percent of the downtown, at least, Er,, Grand Rapids cops none. Yeah. When I actually went to jail,h, last year forh smoking and drivin, heh, one of the guys that I was with in my holding cell he said that we wasn’t doin nothing. He just got,h. for jay walkin. Jay walkin, Two in the morning. Two in the morning! Jay walking! For real? Take him to jail for that? WOAH! I didn’t know that you get pulled over for that. Haha I thought the most that they could give you was like a ticket. Like a fine. I think he didn’t know his rights, I think that what it was. I think heh,h, did a little self incriminating himself, maybe he had a pass, maybe he had a warrant or something. But,h, but for jay walking. What is that? So go to jail, I was like dang man. Page 15 �When did you start paying attention to your rights and like your experiences with the cops and being able to stick up for yourself? Umm it was, man, it was like last year, soh, I would say after the judge after he told me aft... I would say, NO! it was my first probation check-up. I just got off probation yesterday actually Wooh! Congratulations. Thank you very much, never wanna do that system again. Umm I would say right after probation because you know in my mind, Yeah. I should say in my mind I chose to justify what I did. You know that I shouldn’t happen driving while I was high but still don’t let, don’t even let me get started on why it should be illegal. Don’t let me get started. I will run, I will run every single fact. You know to Chad, who was my probation officer, why marijuana should not be legal. Or Illegal or at least decriminalized because it is just a herb. It will beat out the pharmacy industry (Snap) just like that, because you can grow it. Boom. There goes all these pharisaical industries that making millions of dollars off that. You know to keep us sick constantly. Now how many deaths has marijuana had, Zero. How many from overdosing on pills? I can’t count on my hands because I don’t have that much. What they say like ten people, or at least like 10 people die every hour from overdosing on pills? That’s a flicked up statistic right there. NowI started paying attention to after that, that mindset. And I was like, h something’s not right. Why are we, why am I kind of in this bondage right here. This is a system set up to fail. Not just for Africans, but for minorities. Or I wouldn’t say minorities because the people who concerned this land was minorities themselves. So I would say the natives. System set up to enslave the natives once more. Because Christopher Columbus he came here and how many Native Americans did he kill? Whoo. And then they want to label them the illegal immigrants. For real. Haha. So after that, after that I was like I need to learn my rights because the constitutional, or well our constitutional rights that we have or so called constitutional rights, I need to know those. Because I have no idea that I could have told the officer, no do you have a warrant to search my car officer. If I would have said that I would have been good. Constitutional rights. Did not know that at all. So I was like I need to start educating myself on the land that I live. If this is, if this is really a system set up to fail for myself, I need to know, I need to learn the rules, I need to learn how to play the game. So at least learn how the game works and thankfully a manager at Art Van thath, that helped me understand that. I was like, yeah learn my rights, I learned a whole bunch. 1-laha. I learned a lot and that is what, now that I am off probation,I know my rights. And I know what I can and cannot do. And I cannot say, and I will exercise every single rights that I have. Haha That’s so good because I cannot say that I, that I know my rights, to where if! was pulled over or something like that. I kinda wondered the same thing like I didn’t know any of my rights at all. Until I would say some time last year me and a couple buddies were just drinking in the dorms and we didn’t even have to let the cops in. And like they were saying all this stuff like oo you have to let us in like making us like rethink like what we were doing like you have to let us in. Like if you don’t right now we will break down the door. We were like shit. You know they came in there we were being completely cooperative and gave them all the alcohol we had. And they still gave us all MIPs and shit. Mhm. So I mean form like that moment on we were all like shit we need to learn like all the stuff about underage drinking and all that. Just so that Page 16 �like all that stuff doesn’t happen again.uu. I mean I agree with you, I mean like it is almost like not just for minorities but the system sets up to fail you just... Anyone who is ignorant, anyone. I would say defiantly to that to, that was like ahh. Like when you go to parties, you know people are freaking out. Oh my god cops are here! Cops are here! Everybody runnin, just dippin out. Yea and what they don’t know is unless they have a warrant they can’t do anything. Exactly. Yeah you give them permission to come in. That’s a whole different topic right there. Haha right. Shifting gears, you originally, yeah we are just going to forget Segway’s. You when back to Grandville High School recently and an interesting observation you told us about a few weeks ago, about the stair case. Oh yea man, we had, we called it the cool, it was where all the cool cats went. You know. Wasn’t even discriminating against no blacks whites man. You know blacks are supposed to skip because they don’t like to go to class. Minorities come and so we are all just chillin back over there probably abouthh two and a half months ago they sealed it up. And I know that I was because it was all a bunch of minorities there you know blacks whites also. and everybody was just chilling there. I would say it was race motivated but covered up very well. You know just like they always do with everything. Haha. It is very, you know it is a distraction. Well why is it a distraction? Because you just a talking too loud about standing there. Some people have KCDC they get out of class and they would just go and chill you know like right below the stairs. You know it’s not that much of a distraction, kind of like when I I think that they were afraid. Actually I think that some of the people on the staff were afraid of a littleethnicity. I have like when I have a keffiyeh I don’t know if you ever saw it but I have like a keffiyeh wrapped around just like this you know it is cold. Seven in the morning ya’ll got, ya’ll told me I had to be here at seven in the morning. I am going to wear something to keep myself warm. I’m sorry, I don’t wanna come here in the first place. Hah. Who wants to go to high school at seven in the morning. I remember Mr. Vanderslice started chasing me down because I was like no I’m not taking it off. NO! It was a shirt, it was a shirt on top of my head. That’s what it was. I had a shirt on top of my head. That’s stupid! That’s what I am saying! I had a shirt on my head, and one of the ambassadors, chased me all the way to my class just to yell at me. And you best believe that I did not just step back. I was yelling right back. Thankfully my mind, the thought in my mind was to check out the rules. You know, understand everysingle rule, and use that against him. I was like naw there aint nothing against that code book. Your wrong, it does not say that I cannot wear something on my head that’s not seven. Lets see school starts at 7:15 and it aint 7:15 yet. So I don’t have to take the shirt off. Couldn’t do nothing about it. School started at 7:50 7:50 yeah. Couldn’t do nothing about it, I was like ppht, what are you going to do? Violate it I dare you! Page 17 �So was the anything about the shirt, or was it just a regular shirt? Plain old white t-shirt man. I just wearin it on my head, just wearin it on my head. Now moving on to the keffiyeh. Which is? Which is Middle Eastern, soyou know automatic I am Muslim. So people think automatically he is a terrorist. You know lets get, it out of the way. Anytime anyone is wrapping a keffiyeh around their head, in fast the wrap it around their heads because there’s deserts snow storms. So in order to keep the snow, ornot snow Sand storms Stand storms yeah, so they want to keep the sand out of their face. Well its Michigan, it snows I wanna keep the snow out of my face. So I used to water that to when I walked in, everybody’s lookin at me. Whats he doin? Muslim. He is a terrorist. Because that all the, that’s all the media labels them. So we see Muslim terrorist, let’s be honest, let’s be real. Hahah. That’s all they see. They made a big deal about that. I was like yo, it’s not 7:50 yet. I’m not taking it off. You know this is a, I’m not Muslim or Islam, buth I do respect their culture. It is part of my history because remorse. So as part of my history, I embrace all of my culture, not just a little bit of it. So, they couldn’t do nothing about that either. Fight the power. Yeah you mentioned like the media, and how minorities seem to be misrepresented in it.do you have any thoughts about how that could change or, if it can change? Oh man was have to go to the core then because how that started was actually a break off from the Crow laws. That is how they got that in there. They intertwined Jim Crows laws with the media so that whenever someone sees a black person the automatically, you know subconsciously he is up to no good. Yeah like stereotypes Yeah exactly. He is automaticallyh, you know a grand banger. He is automatically high as hell right now. He is black, he is supposed to smoke weed. Dark lips, big dark lips you know. Lie Obama, what is it with Obama, they said that he had weed lips or something like that. I don’t remember, but they they put that, they attached that stereotype to him as well. In order to beat something like that you gotta take down the media because they have control of the mass. Everybody watches TV, everybody watches TV. So if everyone is tuned in on this psychological brainwash machine. Of course everybody is going to think that black person, he aint up to no good, no good at all. So I would say yeah, to, I like to get to the very core of everything I don’t like to,racism isn’t here you know it is 2012 we all matured (In a sarcastic voice). Really? Did you just tune into the Zimmerman case? Why aint he in jail? He shot and killed a 17 year-old who had a bag of skittles. For one the dude was 28 years-old. He shot him dead in a gated community, which was predominantly white in Florida, And why isn’t he in jail. This kid was 17 years-old and he is dead, isn’t that murder? Supposedly he is the head watchman of the, you know the supervising, you know that watch ting. So to say that racism isn’t still here in the United States, that is ridiculous. Racism is still here. It is just in a different way. It is just like energy. Energy was never created of destroyed, it was transformed. Racism was BOOM right in your face, now it’s you know transformed into this thing called the media and I lables every single race, not just blacks, Latinos, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, even American, everything! They have got a label for everyone. And why are we trying to be labels, im Page 18 �not trying to be labeled. I wanna created my own identity. That’s the problem, nobody has their own identity. On the subject of identity, earlier you said you talked about stuff that was part of your heritage. You are obviously very proud of you African American heritage. And one way you show it is through your Facebook name. It is very unique. Would you like to tell us what it is? Oh yea that’s why I tell people anytime they wanna find me on Facebook, you will not find me. I will find you. Hahah. My name on Facebook is Brotha Taffiti Savo Hakeema Jafarr . And the reason why I chose that name was it is the name Hakeema is Swahili for wisdom, and I have that tattooed on my back from shoulder blade to shoulder blade. I believe in that so heavily because without wisdom, or the name Taffiti means knowledge seeker and Savo means order and Hakeema is wisdom so you know with the right knowledge and wisdom comes order, creating your identity basically. And that propelled me into what I want to do. It gave me a new foundation for myself, .n how to give like a new label for myself. And not even a label but to just know who I am period. You know, growing up as a child where are all of the black figures. There are hardly and African doll figures. Identity crisis right there. You know you want to get your niece a doll, but there’s only white ones. Not saying there is anything wrong with white ones, but why give a white one to a black one who is constantly seeing all this propaganda against blacks. You know, she has no idea who she is, she is getting this false identification of herself So just right away that shows the importance of a diverse. You know be a little diverse. Why have too much ofjust one thing? Spread it out, shave to love. You know? Share the wealth, or at least get another black baby doll damn. Put that on the store shelves jeeze (laughing). Just change it up a little you know, that all a brotha can ask. There is one other thing about you that makes you unique. Especially for Grandville is that you are Atheist.and Facebook is the biggest, most notable way that you talk about it. Have you, has anyone ever called you out on it? Oh man we have a different idea that goes against the traditional or mainstream way, no everybody believes this, but that one idea that is controversial to everyone else. It was like what’s up with this guy. What’s wrong with him?rn I wasespecially, I wouldn’t say. Well I learned actually that there are different forms of Atheism. There is an Atheism that does not believe in a god at all, or super natural things. And there isthe atheism that does not believe in the three main traditional religions, the Abrahamic religions, Islamic, Christianity and Judaism. That came for a lost identification of myself I grew up as a Christian, you know my mom told me that I was going to church, I was going to like it, no if ands or buts. As a little kid I was like I have to, and ah I went not because I wanted to but because I had to. And it never gave me a change torn chose what I wanted to believe in. and the problem with a lot of religions, the problem I would say is just based on my research, a lot of people do not do research on religions or what they believe. A lot of people go to history. People don’t wanna research the dark things, the positive and negative. Everybody is looking as the positive, which is great cool, but if you’re not looking at the negative... Well remember if you do not know you history, then you are going to repeat it. People repeating history because of their lack of knowledge, with is also the Facebook thing. Every time a see Taffiti is motivates me. Knowledge seeker you know, that’s what I am. Keep studying, keep reading, keep bringing books everywhere. Nothing is going to stop me. And that was one of the biggest thing I ever had to do. Was let go of my belief of Christianity because it was a grips of fear if you do not believe in a doctrine, you are going to hell. Who wants to go to hell? Somebody raise they hands if they wanna go to hell. (nobody moves) Exactly! That was the biggest thing for me, I had to let go of the fear of risking my Page 19 �sole that is eternal in an eternal place where you die even though you are already dead. You di even more I guess. So I did a lot of research of the translations of hell You know all the translations of Hebrew of actually Arabic to Hebrew to Latin to English; you know studying all those words because I am a big studier. I study every single word, I don’t do broad things. If I am going to check Genesis 1011 will check every single word in every single translation. I will get the idea, I am not just going to go skating by. That’s what most people do, well I have the King James version so. Well did you know King James was a really wicked dude. He performed bestiality, he was extremely in to.. I forgot what it was. But the dude rewrote the bible to keep his throne in power. Now anybody that reuses, or rewrite something against his or against his people or against his power, not going to be like woah what did he change so he could keep his power? A lot of people change things, I like to get to the source, like I said to the core. And I found my identity you know the furthest that I have researched so far, which is Egypt, also the Comets. The traveled for Ethiopia to Sudan, followed the Nile River and the landed in Egypt, or Comet at the time. And that is the my belief system because that is the very core that I have seen so far and it may change. I love when my, what I believe in is challeneged, because that gives me the chance to learn because I get to see another area. So that yeah wxpecially going to Grandville to, you know there morals are all white and Christian. But my joey spiritually has not started since last year. No it was probably about a year and a half. So I would say if I want to Grandville High School with the knowledge that I have now shit would be completely different. I would probably be in college right now. Well I would be in college actually right now if I didn’t break my wrist. Was there a certain like factor that like caused you to start studying and following Atheism? Umm I would say that, I would say that I am very passionate about the black community If there is somebody that doesn’t know this I love who I am. I love being black. I love being who I am not say that being not black isn’t cool. That is just who I am and I would say that I was I questioned what is wrong with the black community today. We are not educated, we do not know our own history, I cannot even find or think of any history class that taught me that starting civilizations in Africa. I had to figure that out on my own. They didn’t tell me that my ancestors where ancient Egyptians were astrology came forum, and mathematics, and a lot of the Greeks got their information from Ancient Egypt. Where Plato always referred to Ancient Egypt. I was not told that a lot of the three religions are deep rooted in African traditions. So I questioned that. And I didn’t really have a bone to pick with Christianity so I was really upset that no one ever told me what was really going on. Because my mom didn’t know, she didn’t ask those questions. My mom actually grew up on Rockford, Oh my god my whole family actually grew up in Rockford. Now they are my age, the grew up in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s so I don’t think that they had time to think about that, They were having a hard enough time just getting through the day in Rockford. So I questioned my community, and the thing is they were mentally brainwashed through generations and generations and generations of slavery. Yeah and she has a daughter named Zira. My first niece. Yeah uncle over here. Kia is pregnant and she gets pregnant again. So, not to mention that Zi is here and she’s pregnant again by the same piece of shit. So, I’m already talking to Mom. I’m actually talking to Kia before. She told me and I was like oh but don’t tell Morn today because I’m talking to her right now. Having a little somewhat, excuse me, somewhat of a religious argument but kind of toned down because I’m trying to have that respect level and Kia, she didn’t tell her yet, but just as were getting done Kia goes, she’s like I don’t if I should tell you this, I’m kind of nervous you know and I laughed so hard. My face was priceless. I was like Kia no! Page 20 �No! You should have waited thirty minutes. No! She flipped out when you had a tattoo. She slammed a door on your face when she found out you were pregnant with Zi. I just told her I’m not a Christian anymore in the nicest way. Now you’re about to tell her you’re pregnant again. I left the house. I was scared. I left. Kia told Mom. Silence. Dead silence. What’d I do? Get my bag, headphones, going for a walk. I’m not coming back into the house for another three hours. She did not say anything for the entire night. I was like holy shit, but that’s kind of the thing. That’s the biggest bone that I have with religion. Religion is of course can be a very good thing, I’m not dogging it, but it has that fear factor. If you do not follow this doctrine then, as I told my mom several times, Mom you know if a Christian says that an Islamic person is going to hell or a Muslim person is going to hell because he does not believe that Jesus is his savior. That means that an entire population is going to hell. Also Judaism and also people who believe in... .what were the other ones. Fuck I forgot their names. You know the one’s from Eastern China. Buddhism Yeah Buddhism. Stuff like that. So I was like they were all going to hell just because they don’t believe in a certain doctrine.That’s pretty fucked up. You know I had a heart to heart talk with her and I was like dude I’m not going to hell. I’m doing research. Mom sorry to say but I know a lot more than you do about the own Bible. So don’t tell me that type of stuff with still having that respect level, but it was very frustrating. Mom Ijust wanna tell you all this stuff that I learned, but it contradicts with everything that we grew up on especially Africans because mind you that slave masters said hey did you want to believe in this? No they forced Christianity down their throats. Broke them. Told them that they were gonna accept the white Jesus for you know Michael Angelo’s picture of Jesus you know for a kind of psychological domination type of thing. Having blacks think that if their God is white then that means automatically white people are closer to God then they are. That type of thing. I mean hey look it up thats what they did. I’m not saying that one race is better than they other. I believe in unity I just love being black you know. (Laughter). Ask all my brothers. It’s ironic. I love being black. I love my brothers and sisters. I’ve never dated a black chick. I’ve only dated white chicks. I love red heads. I love white chicks. What can I say, but that does not make me any less black since I know my history you know? Some type of people will attach that to you also. I’m a very unorthodox type of person. The more I talk, the more I’m like damn I’m fucking weird. That’s what’s up because I’m not trying to be normal. (Laughter). Alright, one last question and we’ll get you out of here. We did a project on what causes prejudice and we had a whole presentation. In your opinion, what do you think causes prejudice? Oh man. Ignorance. Ignorance is not labeled or is not limited to race, gender, color, nothing. It is pure. If you do not know your history, or if you do not know your shit then you’re gonna be ignorant and you’re just gonna accept anything you know. If you don’t have a strong foundation or a set of beliefs than you’re gonna easily be like oh this makes and oh this makes sense too. I’ll follow that. A lot of people, a lot misconceptions on what ignorance is and like I said I’ve done a lot of research. Part of my name on Facebook is Enjur and a lot of people think the word nigger or negro comes from the word ignorant. That’s completely untrue because in ancient Kemit because, you gotta remember there were gods and goddesses, you know. Technically it was not the monotheistic you know religion. Their kings, remember even Egypt. Egypt was Greek and that shows you that’s not even the real name of that body of area. The name was Kemit and the names that the pharaohs, which is Greek for like upper house or something like that. The name for the pharaohs was Enjur and they didn’t have vowels and Enjur or negro is what they Page 21 �called gods and goddesses. So nigger and negro has a connection in that word. When they got invaded by the Greeks and the Romans they twisted and manipulated that word to attach a negative vibe to that word so when they’re calling nigger, negro like slave masters are like get out of here nigger and all that shit, they’re attaching a negative you know situation or vibe on that. So, they’re gonna t away from that name. That’s why you don’t hear people go what’s up nigger? It may make people feel uncomfortable but that word all it is Enjur with a few other letters in that you know. If I went around calling other black people what’s up my Enjur they’d be like what the fuck are you saying. That’s the core word for negro and nigger and where it came from, but most people don’t know that. They just think think it means ignorance so everybody is just you know yeah blacks are saying stop saying that word. It’s got such a bad history to it. It means ignorant. It’s so negative. Then you have dumb niggers who are using it like what up my nigger, what up making a fool out of themselves. Then you actually have the intelligent ones who know, which are a very selective few, that knows the meaning of the word and they use it proudly. You know? I even have white friends that say nigga and nigger. You know, it doesn’t bother me because I know who I am. I have a pretty solid identity of myself so you know it doesn’t bother me. If someone was to say that to me in eight grade, man, I would have whooped their ass so bad. I’m not saying it’s acceptable because today especially with society now if a white person says nigger, they’re about to get their ass whooped. But that’s just because of the black community doesn’t have identification of themselves. They don’t know that. They don’t know the history of the word so they accept it as something negative so they flip out. Does anyone else have any other questions? I guess just one thing, don’t have to get too much into it. Overall, how was your experience in the conservative West Michigan like communities been with you being an Atheist? Like have people called you out on it much or has it been pretty normal? Nahh. I usually keep it to myself. i usually keep my beliefs to myself. If someone asks me then yo I’ll tell them. I’ll tell them with a smile. I love life now. I don’t hate life. So, I’ll gladly tell anyone what I believe in because I believe in unity. Were all one. Were all one consciousness. I don’t believe in religion and sadly that’s what religion does. Divide and conquer. The best technique every because even with the whole black and white thing, you’re white you’re black. So what! Cool. I drive a blue car. Are you gonna call that out to homey. (Laughter). Like, people get so attached to names and labels and stuff like that. They have to hold themselves up to a higher degree. Like yo I’m just here living, what’s up. That type of thing. That’s kind of what I believe in just like yo. I live in the now. I don’t do that prejudice shit no more. I’m glad that I’ve matured. It was a long road. Long road. through trial and error. That’s one thing I’m most interested to see is how it’s gonna be in Texas. Texas is a little different than Michigan. Actually, the job that I’m at right now my boss has traveled all across the world and he told me that Michigan is the most racist place he’s ever been to. That blew my mind. He’s been to Mississippi, Florida, he’s been to China, Australia. Africa. You know, he said that out of all the places he’s been to Michigan is the most racist place he’s ever been to. Wow! I do not know what to expect in Texas. Thank you for your time Terrence for this interview. Thank you, it’s always a pleasure. Page 22 �END OF INTERVIEW Page 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc37d171c51cabff623d9246613b1b4a.mp3 3f335172564596d90f0ad44c593a1863 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Harris_Terrence Title A name given to the resource Terrence Harris audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harris, Terrence Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bauer, David Pete, Eric Homan, Stephanie VanDraggt, Victoria Description An account of the resource Terrence is African American and Atheist. He discusses growing up in a neighborhood that is predominately White, Christian. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History African Americans--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9c18d86d2bd5891275f9c75faaebd1a4.pdf 2acecd5c33f2042ab84eff056e33f61f PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Susan Peeler Interviewers: Lauren Peeler Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/27/2011 Biography and Description Susan Peeler discusses her experiences growing up and how they have affected the way she prejudges people. Transcript LAUREN: My name is Lauren Peeler and I am here today Sunday November 27, 2011 at 11am with Mrs. Susan Peeler inside her home in Canton, Ml. We are here to discuss her upbringings in Chicago Illinois. So you grew up in Chicago? SUSAN: Yes I grew up in the Northern suburbs of Chicago. LAUREN: What was your family like? SUSAN: Well I had 3 brothers one sister for me and my older brothers it was a little bit harder growing up because I don’t know, my mom was real hard on us and when my younger sister and brother came along it was a piece of cake it was like she loved them and didn’t love us ya know. LAUREN: Why did you feel that? SUSAN: Because my mom always told me I was fat, I was ugly I got to put make up on to hide my skin, I had to do this I had to do that why don’t I smile I mean she was always putting me down. LAUREN: Your dad the same way? SUSAN: No, dad was a lot more loving but my mother would never do the stuff she was always doing when my dad was home or if he was in ear shot she wouldn’t have bothered. She just did it behind his back type thing. LAUREN: Did your siblings see this? SUSAN: Yeah no what I never thought anybody saw anything going on until a cuple of years ago when my second oldest brother told me he always saw what was going on but felt helpless and didn’t do anything about it and he felt bad about that. Page 1 �LAUREN: Did you go to school all throughout? SUSAN: Oh God I went to so many catholic colleges because those are the ones my mother picked out she lets see I went to harper junior college which is kind of like schoolcraft. And then I went to I think that’s when I went away to debuuuke iowa the college there in debuuuke and then Iwent to malakar college in lamet which is another catholic college then I finally graduated from mundalein which was another catholic college and basically those are schools that my mother picked and just to avoid any ya know aggravation and stuff I went along with it, ya know just to keep peace. LAUREN: Are you still pretty Catholic? SUSAN: Yeah I still believe in god and everything but I don’t go to church like I know I probably should. But I don’t think God ya know is going to be mad at you for not going to church. LAUREN: Do you think you being so Catholic growing up made you not go now? SUSAN: No I think its just that I always went when I was growing up even oh I don’t know I was just in the habit of going every Sunday and when I got married I kind of started doing it and it was just like I got lazy and just didn’t feel like getting dressed and going to church. LAUREN: So about violence against women physically and sexually? SUSAN: Oh yeah. LAUREN: How is this? SUSAN: When I was a senior in high school I was 18 years old I was working as a life guard at a swimming pool during the summer and in order to teach swimming lessons my mother you had to take this wsi class which was water safety instruction and it was something my mother was basically telling me I had to do. So im like fine Ill go and do it. And when it came time for the test I kind of panicked and I freaked out and I left. And so when I left it was this was actually at Northwestern in Evanston, Illinois and some guy stopped me on the sidewalk and put a knife to my neck so yeah I know. LAUREN: What else happened, anything else? SUSAN: He put me in his car and drove for a while and I kept thinking all I kept thinking was that I was going to end up in lake Michigan dead and ended up in an alley and he made me get in the back seat where he raped me. And then it was finally all over again all over so he drove me back to my car and I got into my car and im just kind of starting to freak out. Then he got back in my car and wanted to do it again so he did it to me twice. And I didn’t know well, obviously I knew I was a virgin but I didn’t know ya know. After I got home I was speeding down the street, my mother was standing there getting ready to yell and scream at me for speeding down the street and I told her what happened and I mean I knew I was a virgin but I didn’t know because I started bleeding and I didn’t know that when you’re a virgin and it happens the first time that’s what it was and I was freaking out about that and my mom went and blew it off. LAUREN: She blew it off? Page 2 �SUSAN: Yeah she was just like I said I don’t know what this is I said what’s going on and she didn’t answer me she didn’t say anything. LAUREN: How did that make you feel? SUSAN: Crap. Oh yeah big time. LAUREN: What happened afterward? SUSAN: Well mom and dad took me to the emergency room and my mom stayed in there with me while my dad was in the waiting room and I really wanted somebody to like hold me because I was so frightened and so scared and all my mother could talk about was how my bad my dad felt because he was pacing back and forth in the waiting room. And she basically blamed the whole thing on me, said it was my fault. LAUREN: Did he ever get caught? SUSAN: Oh yeah he got caught because while I was in the car I don’t know where I had heard it but I kept trying to pay attention to details in the car and everything else and he had a box of Kleenex and a statue of like the Blessed Virgin Mary or something in the front and the seats were covered with plastic and I knew I don’t know I just kept remembering all these little details and stuff. And, the only way he let me go was I told him I would meet him next week, cuz I had to go next week and then that’s why he let me go. And, the next day we went to the police department what I think actually the police came to our house because when I had gone to the emergency room in order for me not to get pregnant they gave me these pills which made me sick to my stomach so I couldn’t leave the house so the sketch artist and police came to our house and I told them everything that I could remember and they I had a sketch artist do a picture of him and I think, you want me to just keep...? Then I think it was, ohl The police then wanted to use me as a decoy ya know and he said that police would be scattered out all over the place. And I was really scared to do that and when the time came the police called and I kind of started freaking out and I gave the phone to my mother and what had happened was that they thought they caught the guy and they wanted me to come in for a police line up. So we had one of my dad’s cousin’s husband’s was a policeman and he met us at the Evanston police station and I told him I said what if I can’t ya know point him out and he said just kind of take your time and blah blah blah well I saw him the minute I walked in. ya know and they wanted to know if I wanted him to say something and I said have him say, “I want to see you again.” And that was it. The guy’s ass was nailed. Then after all that we went to court and it ted out there was about 5 or 6 other women there that he had done this to. One women was in the hospital for about two weeks because she was stabbed quite a few times. And he had this, his girlfriend was there and ya know she gives him a kiss and it was like all five of us are sitting there ready to throw-up just went blehh ya know. But they found him guilty and sentenced him to 25 years in prison in Joliet. LAUREN: Oh wow. SUSAN: And it was basically because all of the details that I was remembering. LAUREN: So you were the main reason he got caught? Page 3 �SUSAN: I think so. Because I had make of the car, the color of the car, plastic on the car, stuff that was in the window I mean I was memorizing all that and I think that had a lot to do with it. And it ted out that it was his girlfriend’s car too. LAUREN: His girlfriend was... SUSAN: ...She was there supporting him. LAUREN: Did she know what he was doing? She was okay with it? SUSAN: what I don’t know, I just think it was a thing of a woman standing behind her man. But I mean when there is five or six people there come on give me a break ya know? LAUREN: Did it make you feel better that you helped all these other women? SUSAN: It did. It made me feel a lot better knowing he was off the streets and couldn’t find me. Because I was always paranoid that he was going to find out where I was and kill me. LAUREN: Did he ever get out? SUSAN: He finally got out they kept sending, we had moved from this was in Glenview we had moved my parents moved to northbrook of course I got married and moved here and the people who lived in the house started getting these letters that were addressed to me from the circuit court or whatever court it was so they looked up all the kolbas in the phonebook and got a hold of my step grandmother who called me and said is it okay? And I said yeah most definitely. So they forwarded the mail to me and it was letters that he was coming up for parole and do I want him out. And im like, hell no, ya know. And so he that went about 4 or five years and then finally I didn’t get a phone call or anything I actually I didn’t get anything in the mail no phone calls, no nothing and I found out that he got released. And he was, so I called the prison, the courts or whoever it was and I said, “why wasn’t I told?” “Oh I don’t blah blah” they were kind of giving you the run around story. And I said where did he get parolled to and she said to Louisiana but we cant give you his address. I said what the hell do I want his address for? I mean for the longest time in maybe sometimes still I think about that he will find out what my new name is even though ive had it for almost 30 years, that he is going to find me and kill me or something. LAUREN: So you are still scared? SUSAN: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I was kind of ya know im always looking behind my back, I don’t like people walking behind me. Because it freaks me out. LAUREN: Is it because you think it’s him, or are you afraid of everyone? SUSAN: No I just im just afraid somebody’s going to come up behind me again and do what happened. do to me what happened before. And I don’t really I like to trust people but don’t really trust people very well anymore. im suspicious, I wont go out in the dark I really start panicking if I ya know especially with my oldest daughter who was forcing me to walk in the streets of Chicago after dark and it was upsetting me so much that I was crying but ya know what are you doing to do? Page 4 �LAUREN: She’s not very helpful with that? SUSAN: No. ya know basically I think she was I know she feels bad that it happened but she was kind of like on the wavelength that of my mom and dad and was like ya know get over it. LAUREN: How has your husband helped at all? SUSAN: I don’t know if he has really helped, he’s there if I need a shoulder to cry on or something like that but ive never had anybody that I never had anybody put their arm around me and tell me everything is going to be okay. Since it happened, not nobody. LAUREN: How did he deal with it when he found out? SUSAN: Well I actually was going with a guy when I was in high school and I told him what happened and then he dumped me. Yeah. he dumped me, didn’t want to go out with me anymore and I had told my now husband about it and he was very sympathetic which was very ya know, which was good. But you always want that arm around your shoulder saying things will be okay. LAUREN: Do you feel like men mostly you cannot trust? Are you afraid of them at all? SUSAN: I have to tell you I do look at people and I just by looking at them I feel like I can judge whether I can trust them or not. I unfortunately don’t trust black men very well because it was a black guy that raped me and I ya know I know I shouldn’t be feeling that way but, black guys scare the crap out of me. just because of what happened, and I know I shouldn’t be like that anymore but yeah there is at the same rate there are some white guys that scare the crap out of me that I will ya know if I see somebody ill go out of my way with walking across the Street or ya know going in a totally different direction or something like that so. LAUREN: Did you ever see a counselor or psychologist about this? SUSAN: Nope. Never did. LAUREN: Never thought about it? SUSAN: I always thought about it but my mother always told me I didn’t need it. there was once I think when I started getting the letters that he was coming up for parole I was good friends with one of my friends here in the neighborhood and she suggested this First Step. And I went there once and never went back. LAUREN: Why? SUSAN: I don’t know. LAUREN: You just didn’t like it? SUSAN: I don’t know I just I don’t know why I never went back. I thought it was something I could handle myself which is probably stupid ya know because I don’t think anybody can handle something like that on their own but. Page 5 �LAUREN: Did anyone else help you handle it? SUSAN: No. LAUREN: So you just did it all by yourself? SUSAN: I had to do it all by myself because I didn’t get any support from my mother at all. LAUREN: You said you moved to Michigan after? SUSAN: Yeah we moved to Michigan that made me feel safe. Knowing that I was out of state and far away but ya know every once in while ill be walking down the street or driving by in the car and ill see somebody that kind of looks like him and it kind of freaks me out a little bit but I try not to think about it. LAUREN: You still remember what he looks like? SUSAN: Not to the extent that I did before. all I know is that he was a short little guy and it was all I can remember now. LAUREN: Has this made you change anything you do in your life? SUSAN: I don’t like going out in the dark. ive gotten to the point that now I have pepper spray so that if I go anywhere in the dark and stuff like that. Like when I go to Chicago now or when I went to New York over the summer I brought it with me and it made me feel safe. Because I knew I cold spray it at anybody at anytime but yeah I don’t, and I get really nervous when im somewhere alone and not a whole lot of people are around I get really nervous about that but.. LAUREN: Have any other events in your life affected what happened to you positively or negatively, made you rethink about it? SUSAN: Well when I was. This is going to be hard, all I wanted was I guess someone to love me. And I think that’s why I guess that’s why I did what I did when I was growing up I had too many guys I guess. There was about four different guys that I guess slept with as they say. Because all I wanted was someone to love me and I didn’t think anybody did. LAUREN: Do you feel loved now? SUSAN: Yeah. From you especially, from dad for the most part but yeah sorta kinda. LAUREN: So afterwards you kind of looked to men for love by having sex with them? SUSAN: Yeah. LAUREN: How does that make you feel, do you regret it at all? SUSAN: Oh god yeah. Because right now I feel like I was like a tramp as they say. LAUREN: I don’t think so. Page 6 �SUSAN: Its not the kind of person, I mean I would never even think of doing that now but I think it was just I was too eager for someone to really like me or love me or something. I was desperate because I wasn’t getting it at home. LAUREN: I think a lot of girls are in your position and what would you want to tell somebody that is going through that? SUSAN: first of all to not put themselves down. Realize that it wasn’t their fault and definitely get help from somewhere, don’t think ya know its going to go away or think that you can ignore it and things will be hunky dory. you need help. LAUREN: Do you ever think about getting help now? SUSAN: Yeah once in a while I do. cuz this happened in 1973 almost forty years ago. and if I try not to think about it im pretty much okay but yeah there’s times when im thinking maybe ill go back even though it’s been almost forty years. And I don’t know I haven’t really decided. LAUREN: Yeah, you have to do it at your own pace. SUSAN: At forty years hahaha that’s a slow pace. LAUREN: So what has helped you deal with it? Has anything helped you deal with it? SUSAN: Nothing really just trying not to think about it. has helped. But I think it was one of those things that even talking about it right now it’s hard but maybe getting it all out in the open and talking about it or even writing it down is a big help, it helps a lot. LAUREN: So do you keep a joal or anything? SUSAN: No that’s something that im asking my kids for Christmas this year is joals because I started writing in a notebook at school when I find myself getting really tense about something I just a lot of it will be bIah blah blah blah, but it makes me feel a lot better. LAUREN: Do you ever re-read it later? SUSAN: Yeah LAUREN: It makes you feel better? SUSAN: Yeah, a lot better. LAUREN: Do you have any heroes that you look up to? Maybe somebody on tv that maybe you wish could have been around? SUSAN: Well actually believe it or not, my daughter got me hooked on watching Law and Order: SVU and I made the comment that I would love an Olivia on my side haha because she is so her character is so kind and so compassionate and I would have given my I teeth for somebody like her when I was attacked. I even am almost half thinking of writing her a letter hahah ya know. As a character but yeah I kind of what even though she is a tv character I kind of look up to her. Page 7 �LAUREN: She does in her regular life she has groups for women. SUSAN: Oh does she really? LLAUREN: Mmhm she is very involved in it and.., SUSAN: Maybe it might be worth while writing a letter she may never get it but LAUREN: I think she would SUSAN: Its worth a try. LAUREN: How did your perception of what happened to you change as you got older, if it changed at all? SUSAN: Oh boy, I don’t know if it has really changed anything because my mother my whole life always made me feel worthless and having that happen to me and she blamed me for it doesn’t make me feel better it still makes me feel worthless, so that’s why a lot of times I don’t think about it. LAUREN: You think not thinking about is unhealthy or not? SUSAN: It what it probably could be unhealthy because you keep all those feelings pent up inside and I think in order for somebody to get over something like that you need to let it out, speak to somebody, ya know even if you go ya know to like the First Step once or twice ya know just so you can hang out with other people that went through what you went through. LAUREN: Your let-out is writing though? SUSAN: Yeah, I mean it may not make a lot of sense but you get there and kind of ramble on and stuff and I don’t know it just makes you feel a lot better. LAUREN: So you have two children? SUSAN: Mmhm LAUREN: How did this affect the way you treated them as they grew up? SUSAN: as they started getting older I always wanted them to call when they got to where they were going basically just keep an eye out ya know just kind of keep looking all around, don’t go anywhere by yourself because I don’t, I just worried about the same thing happening to them. I don’t, I didn’t want them to ya know be caught somewhere alone they needed a ride, call. just, and I know I was kind of I don’t know not overbearing but probably too much when I kept saying well call me when you there, call me when you get here let me know where you’re at and stuff like that. And that was because I just was so paranoid about something happening to them. LAUREN: Were they receptive of that at all? SUSAN: Well I don’t think they know why I was acting like that. because I had never really talked about this before and I don’t even remember when I told them what had happened but crap I just forgot what Page 8 �I was saying. Oh they probably just thought I was I don’t know being like a nosey mom and stuff like that how parents can be and stuff and actually it was just my, me being paranoid. I think. LAUREN: You wouldn’t say that your eagerness to know where they are was a good thing at all? SUSAN: I do but I don’t think at the time they might not thought it was a its like its none of your business where im going or what im doing and stuff like that which is I understand they are entitled to there own life and to do what they want to do but I just always wanted to know where they were and what they were doing because I just kind of wanted to keep a track and if like when my youngest daughter, you, would go into Detroit, it would it scared the crap out of me. I was I was petrified. And that’s why I kept having you call me or I kept calling you and stuff and that’s why. LAUREN: I think that’s why I stopped telling you where I would go because I didn’t want you to worry. SUSAN: Yeah. LAUREN: They are both out of the house now, do you still worry about them? SUSAN: Oh yeah. My oldest daughter lives in Chicago I worry about her a lot but one thing she’s got going for her she did take like kung fu or something when she was in college I don’t know that jiu jit su stuff and she’s got a a scream that would be in the scariest horror movie. And my youngest one I probably worry about a little bit more but I think she is kind of cautious and aware of her surroundings and I don’t think she would put herself in a dangerous situation. LAUREN: Have you ever been treated violently by another man? SUSAN: Nope. LAUREN: Not at all? SUSAN: Well my dad hit me once because I back mouthed my mother or something like that but.. LAUREN: Have you faced any other discrimination with what happened to you? SUSAN: Its, oh against me? LAUREN: Or maybe other people that you have seen? SUSAN: what lye only talked told a couple people like when I told said that I was in high school and I told my boyfriend at the time what had happened and he dumped me and I once in a while I tell somebody I mean its not like common knowledge or anything but I notice how people kind of back away. LAUREN: Because they are uncomfortable? SUSAN: Yeah I think that’s exactly what it is. LAUREN: So you think the general public doesn’t know how to address this problem? SUSAN: I don’t think they know how cuz it didn’t happen to them I don’t think they know I think what to say. And how to say it. I don’t know I just I think that they they just need to be sympathetic I mean . Page 9 �LAUREN: That’s what you wish people would know? SUSAN: Oh yeah. Yeah. LAUREN: Not treat you like you have a disease or something SUSAN: Oh yeah. LAUREN: Do anyone else that this happened to? SUSAN: (shakes head) LAUREN: Must be hard because you don’t have anyone to sympathize with you. SUSAN: Yeah I have known of nobody that it’s ever happened to. LAUREN: There are more people though, don’t think that you are alone. SUSAN: Oh yeah I know there’s a ton, but I don’t know anybody personally You can go ahead and ask that question. LAUREN: Which one? SUSAN: The one about my sex life, hahaha. LAUREN: How has it affected your sexual life? SUSAN: I, you’re going to think this is really weird because im your mother. I don’t really enjoy it like I should. LAUREN: Yeah. SUSAN: because of course my first time ya know I was raped and it’s hard I mean its really really hard for me but l’ve...l do what I can to make my husband happy, I try hard. And I think he knows that too. Sometimes it’s very very difficult for me but for the ya know I do what lcan. Funny thing to be talking to your daughter about haha LAUREN: Oh its fine. Sometimes do you think of it? SUSAN: not during anymore. I mean I used to a long time ago but not anymore. LAUREN: Do you think the first time you did it after it happened, was it really hard for you? SUSAN: Yeah. LAUREN: Was the guy sympathetic at all? SUSAN: Oh I didn’t tell him. LAUREN: Do you think these people you were with kind of sensed that there was something? Page 10 �SUSAN: What they might have but I didn’t I didn’t come out and tell anybody. Because I thought that for sure if I told somebody they would run in the other direction. LAUREN: Because of that one guy did? SUSAN: Yeah. And it did take me a while to tell my now husband what happened because I loved him a lot and I was afraid he was going to leave me too. LAUREN: Did you tell him after you were married? SUSAN: No I told him before. LAUREN: How long after you were dating? SUSAN: what I think it was actually a couple of months maybe LAUREN: Did you tell him before you two became intimate? SUSAN: No. LAUREN: It was afterward? SUSAN: Yeah. LAUREN: So the police, they used you as a decoy to catch him? SUSAN: Yeah they wanted to use me as a decoy the following week because I told the guy I was going to come back a in a week and that’s why he let me go, because I promised to meet him. and I told the police that and they wanted to use me as a decoy and im like, “no” and they said well we would have policeman all around everywhere and I Was kind of scared about doing that but when they called me to be a decoy they said that they had captured him. LAUREN: So you didn’t have to be a decoy? SUSAN:No I didn’t have to be a decoy after all. So I was like really relieved. LAUREN: Do you think you would change what the police did? SUSAN: No, because actually the police were pretty good about it but they I Think were a lot more I don’t know I had first picked out the picture that wasn’t the guy. Ya know because I was starting to get flustered and he goes, “are you sure this is him?” and I said, “I don’t know I think so” and he said, “well this guy is six feet tall” so I guess that’s not him but no I wouldn’t change anything except I would have gotten some help a lot earlier. Because maybe I wouldn’t have done half of what I did. Well then I think that’s it’s a dumb excuse but I think that could have been why I started drinking a lot to. LAUREN: You started drinking? SUSAN: Yeah, a lot. LAUREN: When, after it happened? Page 11 �SUSAN: Yeah. Well not really so much after it happened it was I think it was about the time that I got the letter saying that he was being released. I started drinking allot and because it made the pain feel better. But it was really kind of stupid because I was trying to feel better about it but what I was actually doing was putting myself deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper into a hole that didn’t think I was going to be able to get out of. LAUREN: How did you get out of it? SUSAN: What I know my family really wanted me to quit really bad and I knew I would once I was ready but it was just one day like with smoking, one day I woke up and irn just like, “okay im done.” And I honestly didn’t think I would be able to because I was oh crap drinking at least a twelve pack a day. LAUREN: How did your family deal with that? SUSAN: They they weren’t very happy with me ya know and I knew it was upsetting them and it was I was getting scared because I didn’t know because I have a very addictive personality when I start doing something ljust keep doing it and I have a hard time stopping but I basically I wanted my family to be proud of me not ashamed of me and I think that was one big reason why I quit and on top of all that I lost 60 pounds too hahaha so that helps. but yeah it was a long haul but I think finally at my ripe old age im kind of coming to terms with stuff. LAUREN: Do you think your where you want to be? What else do you want to do? SUSAN: actually this is the happiest I’ve ever been in a really long time im trying to learn not to let things bother me anymore I do get really anxious especially just over thanksgiving weekend was a whole lot of fun. I mean I did have a good time seeing my brother and his family and stuff but my oldest daughter is not very not really tolerant of other people. And I was getting really tense with that. When I’m at home if im starting to feel really sad or im getting tense ill just start doing something that makes me happy. And my job I love it. I work with special needs kids and they’re terrific ya know. And I keep thinking boy I’ve got problems ya know and look at them they’re as happy as can be and I just don’t I think if my mother was alive today I would probably tell her to go fly a kite, or take a long walk off a short pier. because she always had me tied up in knots but im I life is too short to let things bug you and eat away at you it’s not worth it and that’s why I feel this asshole I hoping he’s dead or he drowned in hurricane Katrina because he was done there when hurricane Katrina hit so ive got my fingers crossed that he got drowned and floated away. But I figured life is too short he took a lot from me but I refuse for him to have anymore. I just won’t do it anymore. LAUREN: Do his name? SUSAN: Yep. LAUREN: Do you ever think about looking him up and seeing if he died? SUSAN: No I never thought about that, but that would that might be kind of nice it would make me feel a lot better knowing he was dead. LAUREN: How old was he when it happened? Page 12 �SUSAN: Im not really sure because im not really good at guessing ages but I Want to say he might have been in his 30’s. LAUREN: So he would be pretty old now. SUSAN: Yeah so hopefully he’s older and he’s farting dust now or something. I don’t know. But yeah ya know I don’t wish ill will on anybody but I hope he died in hurricane Katrina, haha. LAUREN: I think that’s okay. So you started drinking kind of to numb the pain so you wouldn’t think about it and it drove you in further.. SUSAN: It was driving me farther apart from my family and the way I was doing that I lost count how many years, quite a few years and it my husband kept telling me its only going to depress you moreand im like no im doing fine blah blah blah and yeah I did realize it wasn’t doing anything to help me at all and im just happy I quit. LAUREN: So you only realized you had a problem after your family said something? SUSAN: I knew I had a problem but I always thought I can quit whenever I feel like it but with the addictive personality I had I was so used to coming home from work and start drinking at like 3 o’clock and it was just a habit I got into. And finally after umpteen years I had to form a different kind of habit get used to doing something else instead of that every time I came home so know everytime Icome home I sit down with my diet coke and my popcorn and my needlepoint ha for about an hour. LAUREN: Did you ever t to any other drugs or? SUSAN: No I did start smoking. at a few days after this happened because he had offered me a cigarette and I said no I don’t smoke and then to be cool, calm, and collected I said oh gee can I borrow a cigarette and I think that’s when I started smoking. and I did that up til I was pregnant with my oldest child I was a couple months pregnant and I realized smoking was not going to do her any good and I just woke up one day and didn’t want it anymore. LAUREN: Do you think your family is grateful for that? SUSAN: Oh yeah I think so. Very much so. LAUREBN: Besides being worried about when your kids when out, how did this affect the way you were a mother and a wife? SUSAN: There’s so much more I wish I would have done, butl don’t think the rape itself had anything to do with it. Shoulda coulda woulda. I mean I always wished I don’t know there’s I just wish I would have been a different kind of morn. giving them more responsibility of doing things around the house and stuff like that and I never really pushed it because I didn’t want them to get angry with me and stuff so I just kind of kept it and did it myself. LAUREN: Why are you afraid of people getting angry with you? Page 13 �SUSAN: Oh just because my mother always yelled at me and stuff and I just I get really tense and upset if people’s voices start getting raised because it kind of goes back to when my mother and I just cant deal with the yelling and stuff like that. LAUREN: It seems like a lot of your problems stem from your mom and how she treated you. SUSAN: Yeah LAUREN: Is she still alive? SUSAN: No she died in may of 2001 from Alzheimer’s. And it sounds weird but she finally became the mother that I always wanted she was more I was talking oh we, I was down in Florida because my mother was sick and somebody had rented a video and my husband called me up from down in Florida and I go its not that big a deal, just ret it. But he doesn’t like things being late. And I said it wasn’t that big of a deal so I hung up and I was kind of crying and my mother actually came over to me and put her arm around me and I think that was the first time she ever did that and I don’t ever remember her telling me that she loved me. So that’s why I make a point every time I see my kids or talk to them on a phone I always tell them I love em. LAUREN: They love you too. SUSAN: Thankyou. LAUREN: You’re welcome. How did you feel when she passed? SUSAN: I was sad. But I mean I loved her because she was my mother but as a person I didn’t like her at all. so in a way it was kind of like a relief. Because even after I got married she kept sending me letters, like, “why can’t you smile more like your sister, why can’t you do this, why can’t you do that.” And when you have somebody nit picking at you like that 24/7 its like leave me the heck alone. LAUREN: Did she compare you with your sister? SUSAN: All the time. LAUREN: Did it make you kind of... hate her a little bit? Your sister SUSAN: My sister? Yeah. Because I know she and my brother were always my mom and dad’s favorite. LAUREN: How that effected your relationship with your brother? SUSAN: I’m not very close to them. I’d like to be closer. When I’m around them I feel like I have to watch what I’m saying. And I’m real careful how I work things. LAUREN: Are you close with your older brothers? SUSAN: My 2 older brothers are probably a little bit closer than my younger. I have this bad habit, I don’t keep in touch with anybody as good as I know I should. because we all live far away from each other, but I’m trying to make up for that. Let’s see.., one summer we went to go visit my brother in California and Page 14 �then 2 years after that I went to go visit him again, and then last year I went to visit my brother in Florida, because he lives alone, he divorced, and I just kind of wondered how he was doing. LAUREN: Did any your siblings ever come for you? SUSAN: No, not at all. LAUREN: Do you guys ever talked about it? SUSAN: No... I called my dad one day, and... I think it was when I first started to get the letters coming off for parole and... my dad said “ I thought you were over that by now”. And I said dad, how can be over something like that. So, my dad were a lot more caring and understanding than my mother, I didn’t even get what I needed from him. LAUREN: What would you tell him, if you could tell him anything right know? Or what do you wish you said? SUSAN: What, I wish I would have told my mother, “Why can’t you be a mother to me?”. Because when we had gone to the police station, and we were walking at the parking lot, I started crying, and my mother grabbed me and said “What the hell are you crying for?”. I mean, she was never sympathetic towards me when this happened, because she pointed that it was all my fault, so I knew I wasn’t get ever anything from her. LAUREN: Was she supportive during the trial? SUSAN: No, she never came, it was always my dad. My mum was kind of like pretended it never happened. LAUREN: But your dad was more helpful? SUSAN: Yeah, because he went to the courts with me, so he was pretty good. LAUREN: Was it hard going to the court, and seeing him again? SUSAN: Yeah, it was. It was really really hard, but I felt better knowing there was 5 or 6 other women there, who went through something similar, so I knew therewas other people there, so it maybe felt me a little bit better. LAUREN: Did you ever speak with them about it? SUSAN: Yeah, we were kind of sitting... I don’t remember what it was we talked about, I just remember we were sitting near each other in the courtroom, and that guy was up in front and his fiancée was behind him, and they stood up as the court session was over, and they kissed each other, and we all thought we’re gonna throw up and it’s disgusting. LAUREN: That was the jury who found him guilty? SUSAN: No, I think it was just the judge, it wasn’t the jury. LAUREN: So it was a quick trial? Page 15 �SUSAN: Yeah, pretty quick. We only had to go twice to court. LAUREN: If this happened to one of your children, how would you treat them differently than your mother treated you? SUSAN: Definetely not the way my mother did it. I would hug them and hold them, tell them I love them, let them know everything is gonna be okay, and I would be there with her every step on the way. I would never want one of my kids go through what I went through with my mom. I would never allow that. I’m just glad I didn’t end up like my mother . Because she said she never liked kids. LAUREN: Really? SUSAN: Yeah. That was my mother. And I found out from my aunt, my dad’s sister that... she said that, it was kind of funny... my grandfather said my step grandmother that don’t ever leave me alone with them... asshole. LAUREN: So did your dad’s family like your mom at all? SUSAN: Well, my dad’s mother was still alive.., and no, apparently they didn’t like each other. I think my gradpa was.., he didn’t really said he disliked her or\ anything like that. He put up her basically, that’s what he did, because she married his son. But I’ve got to visit my aunt this weekend and hoping to find out a lot of juicy stuff that was going on. But my aunt Carol did make a comment that... I was talking to her about this just about a week ago, and she said that she was very upset with her brother, who’s my dad at the way he was handling that, and the way I was treated, and she was really pissed off. LAUREN: It makes you feel better? SUSAN: Yeah. It would be nice if Carol was my mom. That’s the way my mother was. LAUREN: That’s how she has always been? SUSAN: Yeah. But I mean, she was 16 years old, she could go ahead whenever she wanted, but I... I’m hoping my kids don’t drink and smoke... I mean the occasional drinking is not a big deal but.. If I find out my kids are drinking, just promise me you never ever get behind the wheel. Because guys, you can make up you own mind and make your own decisions, and all I can do is to give you my input, from experience. LAUREN: Do you talked to them about it? SUSAN: No, because I never... I don’t know why I never have... Because I have a hard time of starting things that I want to talkedto them about. I don’t know how to bring it up and talk, because I don’t... My biggest fear is hurting their feelings, because my mother always hurt my feelings in my life, and made me sad. I was always sad with her 24/7, and I didn’t want to make that mistake to my kids. But then I didn’t want to make the mistake of not saying something and having something continue. I’m starting to be hopefully a little more vocal LAUREN: You weren’t very happy how your mother raised you. Do that you did a better job? Page 16 �SUSAN: I hope I did. Because my mother... I could never say the things to my kids that my mother said to me. I mean I tried to be more open to them, I waned them to feel that they could come to me for anything, and I loved it if they came to me for everything, but I realized I can’t do that, because they have their own little spot that’s their business, nobody else’s... something they talk to their friends about before they’re talking me about. LAUREN: So when you became mom, you tried not to do things how your mom did? SUSAN: Yeah. So, that’s why with my oldest daughter, I wish I would have been a little more strict with her, because she’s really kind of self centered, and feels that everything has to be circling around her and she’s got to realize life isn’t like that, and it’s not gonna happen. I mean I wish I was a little more strict with her and done stuff differently with her. And if I had grandchildren one day, they’re gonna be the most spoiled little brats because they would come over, visit grandma, and we would bake cookies and all the stuff that I think a grandma should do, instead of my mother, who basically thought that kids should be seen and not heard. My mother was not a grandma type mother. And the funny thing is we were back in Chicago for thanksgiving, we stopped by the cemetery and I didn’t realize till just now that... it’s a big family thing, my mom’s on one side, my dad’s on the other, and I noticed that I always stay over on the same side, that my dad is on, I don’t go over to the side that my mother is on. I see her name, but I don’t go over there, which is really weird, I never really thought about this till just now. LAUREN: Because you can’t let go the hurt that she gave you? SUSAN: Yeah. LAUREN: So anything else, you want to say? SUSAN: No, I think that pretty much covers it. END OF INTERVIEW Page 17 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d43514c01365cbb219358a534cc6f39.mp3 ca7350448e5dd2ecd16592fc539b7a6f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Peeler_Susan Title A name given to the resource Susan Peeler audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Peeler, Susan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Peeler, Lauren Description An account of the resource Susan Peeler discusses her experiences growing up and how they have affected the way she prejudges people. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Discrimination against African Americans Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d2e0ba2655ab32c69d8f52f7b5c87f14.pdf 8347a0fbb8196d101c8fdd7b88024087 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Maria Sutherland Interviewers: Kayla Burke, Jennifer Noth and Alex Suriano Supervising Faculty: Danielle Lake Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/31/2011 Runtime: 00:43:32 Biography and Description Maria Sutherland is from Cochabamba, Bolivia. She describes her experience as an immigrant to the United States. Transcript Alex: My name is Alex Suriano. Jennifer: And I‟m Jennifer Noth. Alex: And we are here today, at 4 o‟clock P.M. with Maria Sutherland at Grand Valley State University. We are here today to talk about your experiences. Could you please give us some basic information about yourself? Maria: As Alex stated, my name is Maria Sutherland. I‟m from Cochabamba, Bolivia. I was born there in the San Pedro Hospital. Um, my mom is also Bolivian, but her parents are both American. My dad‟s American, I have two other sisters. One was born in the United States and the other one was born in Bolivia. I lived my entire life there, except for my seventh grade year and last year, um, my freshman year of college. A: Alright, so you said you came in seventh grade to western Michigan and just the states in general, what was that like? M: Basically, it was almost like a vacation because we were only here for like a year. It was pretty difficult though because I wasn‟t used to the culture but because I was still younger it was easier to get involved in different things and fit in. A: And then you came back obviously for college as you‟re here right now, how was that? We‟ll just say, describe that experience. Page 1 �M: At the beginning I was really excited because I was like, oh it‟s going to be so much fun, the United States, it‟s a different culture a different place to be. It‟s going to be really fun and then what I didn‟t realize is it‟s a totally different world. Like, the culture is incredibly different, the pace of things, the people, um, it just like overwhelmed me and I didn‟t realize what I was getting myself into. A: Alright, so, how would you describe your own identity? Like, say, we were at an icebreaker or something and someone was like how-like just give us a basic description of yourself, how you identify yourself. M: I feel like for me that‟s really hard but, I would identify myself as Bolivian because even though I don‟t look Bolivian, I was still born there, I grew up with that culture and that‟s basically all I‟ve ever know except for like what my parents have taught me and living in the States for a little bit. A: Okay. Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adulthood where you felt different or were treated differently? Back in Bolivia, if you ever felt like you were different from the people there, like when you first kind of realized that. M: Um, I did feel different in Bolivia just because of my skin color. Some people would treat me differently because, well white people are always seen as, like they have the money, they have everything. So they either really suck up to you or they would just treat you like you don‟t belong here, what are you doing here? But, as soon as you get you know then, then all that first impression is gone, so. I kinda got used to that, at the beginning it being awkward and then once you get into the flow of things it was fine. A: Alright. So, you are from Bolivia. How did coming here effect your thinking of your identity? Like, did it change it at all or when were you really like, I identify as a Bolivian completely because I don‟t really know the culture here. M: If definitely broadened my overall thinking of my identity because before I just saw myself as I am Bolivian but at the same time I can speak english and both of my parents speak English too, they are America citizens. So, coming here actually made me realize, that there is a part of me Page 2 �that is also, I guess, American. But, in my, I don‟t know, always in my head I always thought more like a Bolivian so coming here made me realize that more so it‟s kind of like this constant battle of like am I Bolivian or am I trying to fit in America, like as an American or as like my own self. I don‟t know. It‟s kind of complicated. A: That makes sense, it is kind of a unique situation to be it. M: Yeah. A: Alright, were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the treatment of Bolivians or just Latinos in general in society. If so, can you name one, a couple, as many as you want? M: Well I think my parents, first of all, because growing up with Bolivians, I don‟t know, they‟ve always had a special place in my heart. I guess no one has ever really been like “You have to care for these people”, but in a way I guess it was kind of the opposite because of some of the people that I really looked up to that I hung out with, um, well it‟s kind of complicated because in Bolivia there‟s like a lower class and then there‟s a higher class and the people that I really looked up to in the higher class really looked down on the lower class. And through seeing like, the hatred that they had for the lower class, that made me feel like even more passionate about the lower class and like caring about them. So I guess it wasn‟t really a certain person, but just like my like overall perspective on everything. A: Okay. Do you remember family members, friends or people from your community being discriminated against? Either formally, informally. Just kind of like, in society, just people you know who were discriminated against or here people you know who are discriminated against. M: Um, my school was an international school but they strived to have like, 50% Bolivians and 50% international students. And then it changed, like the board changed and when I was in like eighth grade, they were really, extremely racist. They were against everything, like that the Bolivians, I don‟t know, they just didn‟t like Bolivians. It was just obvious and by twelfth grade, every single person in my class that was Bolivian left because of all the discrimination and that Page 3 �like really hurt and like most of the teachers didn‟t like me because I was such close friends with the Bolivians that they even like discriminated against the people that hung out with them. And then even like here some of the people that I talk to, it‟s really crazy, because at least in Bolivia I haven‟t really noticed between Bolivians like, racism. But here I just feel like there‟s so much, racism and discrimination and it‟s brought up so much, I don‟t know, it just shocked me. A: And you talk about racism here, like what group do you feel like is being-do you feel like all groups are being racist against all the other groups or is it like specific groups being racist against like other specific groups? Just kind of go into depth about that. M: I think that there‟s definitely racism between African Americans and white people and Latinos. But, like it‟s also crazy to see, I don‟t know, I feel like. I don‟t know how to explain it. I don‟t know-- because I haven‟t lived here long enough, but I don‟t know if, they‟re not exaggerating like to the extent of that they‟re being discriminated against but I just feel like they have-they feel so much like they feel they‟re being discriminated against so profoundly that it shocks me. Like one of my friends just told me, he‟s a Latino and was just telling me about how sometimes he hates just going to certain clubs because when he walks in he can feel like people just don‟t want him there. And that‟s just like weird for me, and it‟s sad. And sometimes you think like, is it true? Or do you think that he just has that vibe and it‟s not really there. You know what I mean? I don‟t know. A: Mhm, it makes sense. Alright now, do you have any civil rights heros nationally, or locally that like, people in history that have stood up for people and rights issues? Do you understand what I‟m saying? M: Yeah. Well, I don‟t know. I really like Jacque Wara. He, I don‟t know if you know who he is but he stood up-well he basically helped, um, Bolivia gain it‟s independence and everything and I don;t know, he really helped the poor community because they were being, like, obviously, the higher elites were totally, like, taking control over them and making them do stuff that they had no control over. What they, like, they‟re lives you know? So I thought he was really cool and Page 4 �just the fact that he didn‟t even start out to do that, like he, just ended up seeing it and realized that something was wrong and he needs to change it. A: So, you were talking about the international schools. Is there any-you said there were Bolivians to start off with, was it the higher class Bolivians or like, the lower class Bolivians, that were looked down upon, they just chose a select few to come to the schools or-just kind of go into more depth about the schooling. M: Um, because it was an international school, it was more expensive. So, the poor Bolivians couldn‟t really enter that, um, school. It‟s just really-I don‟t understand why they discriminate against them because the entire reason they were there was basically, they‟re in Bolivia obviously, there‟s going to be Bolivian people there. it was just that, I think that maybe one of the reasons was it was just a very strict Christian school and because most Bolivians are Catholic or because they‟re not-I think they were more liberal that maybe that‟s why they didn‟t like them. A: Alright, did you ever experience the lower class schools or just see what they were like as compared to your international school? M: Um, I have friends in like, other schools, like public schools, but I never really experienced them. A: Okay, did they ever make comments about the public schools. Like, just comparing them at all, did they ever talk about like, “Oh our school is so...” anything? Did they talk about their school? M: I think the school system probably was, well because there was more people, it was probably alot more disorganized but I‟m not really sure if there was a huge difference. A: Alright. J: Alright, um, so you went to one university, other than Grand Valley, last year, correct? Um, tell me a little bit about the diversity of it. M: It was actually really diverse, because, um, it was a Christian university so lots of missionary kids went there and they were like, from all different places. And they were also international kids and it was actually really cool because they had a group for missionary kids and a group for international kids and it was really interesting because I actually met one of my best friends there Page 5 �and he was from Bolivia too and I had never known him until I got to Taylor. So, it was really cool and there was also a guy from Ecuador that I got to know too and I think it was pretty diverse. J: Compared to Grand Valley, do you think it was more diverse? M: Um, I think that it‟s kind of hard to tell because Taylor was a lot smaller, so, it seemed like there was lots of people from lots of different places but I‟m also pretty sure that, um, Grand Valley has a lot of diversity, like, I‟m in the Latino Student Union and like, there‟s still a lot of diversity and different places people are from and that‟s just one organization. And there‟s so many organizations on campus that I think that Grand Valley actually does have a wide variety of diversity. J: Awesome. Um… Would you say that there are any landmark historic events that happened like within either Bolivian culture or your time in the States that you experienced? M: Um I think, I think that one even that appeared while I was in Bolivia that was like definitely changed Bolivia was I was there when they elected the first indigenous president, and he‟s actually still president right now, and that‟s just a huge deal because.. Like he was supposed to represent the indigenous people which is something Bolivia has lacked for so long. So that definitely, even though he still hasn‟t represented the indigenous people, at least now they still, are getting their voices out, and that‟s definitely changing the way Bolivia is today. J: Would you say that he‟s someone you look up to? M: I‟d say that .. it‟s really hard because he‟s done a lot of things that are not intelligent at all, but at the same time I really like the fact that he doesn‟t do like what everyone expects him to do, you know? He does something out of the norm, which is I like I think is something that Bolivia needs like in order to change so… J: Um… A: Okay. So I know we were talking a little before the interview a little bit, and you mentioned some things about protests. So do you want to go into more detail, like what they were about just? Page 6 �M: Usually there is a lot of protests and strike in Bolivia. Um a lot of this has to do with things like, they raise, All the sudden, they will raise the price of bread. They‟ll double it. Then all the stores will shut down, all the streets will get blocked, all the public transportation will stop. So basically everything shuts down until the people get their voices out and the government, er yea the government changes the policy. Um that also happens a lot with gas down there. They change the gas process a lot too. Right now they are actually trying to build a main high way through the amazon, the jungle, and like people have been protesting a lot about that. A: Do you think that is a good or bad thing? M: Definitely a bad thing because the only reason they, well I still haven‟t really researched it that much but, I think that the reason they are creating that is um basically they want to take the land resources, like the government wants to take it for themselves. So they are building that highway so that it will be easier for them to do that. Whereas there is this huge people group in that live in the jungle and are being exploited and they like don‟t even really know it. So I‟m definitely against it. A: Okay. And then just, I know in our class we have been talking about how history is taught in America and the problems with that. When you were in the international school, do they teach mainly world history, or like do they teach Bolivian history, or like American history? Like what did you basically learn about history? Like if you had to like.. You‟re teaching a.. If you like a… remember back in like 5th grade or whatever, What were you learning about in history? M: In 5th grade? A: Well just back like in your education, like early on, what kind of stuff were you learning? M: Yeah. Well I remember in 5th grade, actually I do remember because we played this game, and I was horrible at it, but I remember that we were each cast put into different groups and were like all different countries. So I think it was more like, we like learned more about the world than a specific place and also the only place where I like really learned about the Bolivian history was Spanish class. Like we would read Spanish history books and yeah stuff like that. Page 7 �A: And then did you learn like American history like at all? Or was it just kind of… M: I did learn American history. I don‟t really remember that much about it. A: That‟s okay. People in American really don‟t remember that much about American history… Um… Do you have any more questions Jenn? J: Um…Not that I can think of. A: Um maybe just going into more detail into history education, did you like learn about the World Wars, like Great World Wars one and two? M: I actually learn about um WWI and WWII, and that actually really is one reason that I want, I started to learn German because it expanded my horizon and made me realize, like how how like I don‟t know. I always that World War One and World War Two were really like impactful because it impacted like so many different countries and just like all the history that goes into like all really shocked me, and I really liked learning that stuff because it wasn‟t like about just one specific country. It was about so much… Diversity. A: So you‟ve lived in uh the starts for about two years now. So you have gotten to experience a lot of like the cultural differences. What were like some of the major major things that you see difference between like Bolivian culture and American Culture? M: One of the biggest differences, well there‟s a lot of differences, but the first one that hit me when I got to the States was the um punctuality of things here like… like for example when I first got there, there were a bunch of activities that freshman um would do and they would be like „ok we‟re meeting in 5 minutes in the hallway.‟ I‟d get there like 5 minutes late and everyone would be gone. And that is just like… first of all I was like ok I am only five minutes late, like in Bolivia if I was 30 minutes late everyone would still be there and would be waiting or like half of the people wouldn‟t be there yet and like secondly it was just, I don‟t know. In Bolivia there would always be someone waiting for you Like even if you were late. Like it was just the respectful thing to do, so…. That was really different for me. Yeah… A: Some other big differences? Like I remember you talked about like we kind of uptight. Like you cant cross, you have to cross the street here. You have to do this here. M: Yeah, there are so many rules in the States. The um that‟s why I kind of I feel like I ask a lot Page 8 �of questions here and I also just kind of instead of really being able to be myself in a way, like I kind of have to sit back and observe because I don‟t know what to do in certain situations or what the norm is so yeah it‟s a lot different learning. Yeah it um… Another thing that I realize is a huge difference was the fact that in the United States is a lot more fast paced. Go go go. And I just remember that my sisters would always come back, cause they came here for university too, they‟d come back to Bolivia for the summer or something and they would always be like „Oh I was so stressed out like over there.‟ I was like „Oh I‟m never going to be like that.‟ Cause in Bolivia I was never stressed out at all and then I came to the states and then like last year I was wahhh the entire time but no, I am getting used to it. I feel like I am a lot more laid back now and its weird because people would be like „You are so laid back‟ like when I would like still feel like uptight because I don‟t know of the society. I think, I just think that Bolivian society is a lot more relax, lay back and like people oriented and American society is more like um down to business, gotta get this done and then I will hang out with people. Yeah… A: Okay. Any other big differences you can think of? Or even like little things, like „Oh that‟s weird‟ we like, just things that like are every day to you and like here they are unheard of or like vice versa? M: Hmm… Well I guess one kind of weird thing is that down there I feel like is people are a lot more friendlier in the way that like you‟d go walking down the street and you wouldn‟t know anyone and you‟d just like „Hi‟ and they would just be like „Hi‟ blah blah blah blah. I don‟t know, it would just be like super friendly, whereas here, sometimes if you like say hi to a random person walking down the street they just like look at you like you are a weirdo or something. So I‟m always like ok I‟m not going to do that, and then it was really interesting because I was like on the bus one day and I started talking to this guy randomly and then he was just like „yeah I could tell you were a transfer because people here don‟t just randomly start talking to people. Page 9 �Like that‟s just not what you do.‟ And I was like „what like what‟s wrong with being friendly, you know?‟ I don‟t know. It was just weird for me. Um. A: Alright um. M: Another thing that I found that was really different, is like um I don‟t wanna like… I‟m not trying to say that like the United States is bad or anything. It‟s just totally like different culture but I feel like the people here spend a lot of time buying things. Whereas in Bolivia I would never really buy things… So it‟s just funny because like during this summer while I was working, like all of the girls that I worked with were like „Oh I can‟t wait until I get my paycheck so I can go out and shop and blah blah blah.‟ Like it was just weird to me to think that‟s the first thing they‟d spend their money on, is like clothes and accessories, I don‟t know yeah….and like another difference is, at least in Bolivia, in my city, there are poor people… everywhere like down the street, like there would be a poor person sleeping on the side of the street um whereas here you don‟t see that that much, and it‟s interesting because I um actually talked to some poor people here in Grand Rapids and it‟s just really interesting to see the difference between like the poor people here and the poor people in Bolivia cause the people here like.. I was talking to this one person and they were like telling me how there is different like soup kitchens and stuff and sometimes they don‟t go to this once place because it‟s nasty and they don‟t like that food, whereas like in Bolivia they don‟t have soup kitchens. They don‟t have homeless shelters. So like if you give them like the moldiest nastiest piece of bread they are going to eat it, you know? I don‟t know, it was just interesting to see the differences. A: Eh if you can think of any other differences, we can keep going on those. If not, we can move on. Its up to you. M: Um… Oh one huge difference. Well it‟s not a huge difference, but it was just something that I it got me mad because in Bolivia, there isn‟t that much diversity, and like... Well there is a bunch of diversity in like the fruit and like all the vegetables you get, but if you like go to the super Page 10 �market, like they have like one or two type of hot cocoa you know, for example. Whereas you go to a super market here and there is like an entire aisle of different like hot cocoas you know? I don‟t even know which one to pick and its crazy how much like they like have here in the states and yet like sometimes people are like „ugh I don‟t want this stuff. They should make a new kind of…‟ you know? When it‟s like there‟s so much of it. I don‟t know. It‟s crazy. A: Alright um. So I think that‟s about, you covered the main differences, I feel like. You said that your dad was American and your mom was Bolivian or her parents were American. What? M: Yeah, that‟s kind of difficult. My dad is from Michigan, and my mom, she was born in Cochabamba, the same place I was, but her parents were both American. So she has American citizenship and Bolivian citizenship like me, but… A: Okay. So um what kind of made your dad and your grandparents like decide to move from the states to Bolivia? Was there any like, big factors? M: Um I think that… well my grandparents were missionaries. M: And, I think they started off in Ecuador, and then they went to Bolivia. And then I think that the reason why my dad went down there was he actually, he started dating my mom and then my mom went down there for like the summer or something, and then she came back up, and then he, I just think that he was just intrigued with all the stuff she was telling him about it and stuff, so he decided to go down there for a year, and he just really liked it. Like they weren‟t even married or anything, but he just really liked it and then he came back to the States, and um, they also got into mission work too, and so they decided to go back. And I don‟t know, I‟m like really glad that I did grow up like in Bolivia, like I would never change that experience, ever. Like even when I struggle with like, who I am as a person, because of like am I Bolivian? But like when I‟m in Bolivia I don‟t really fit in that much because I am white. But when I‟m in the States, I don‟t really fit in either because even though I‟m white, like I have no idea like about the culture and stuff, you know? Like, it doesn‟t…I still, like still have that passion for Bolivia there, like I wouldn‟t change a thing. Page 11 �A: So, you said it was a very positive experience growing up in Bolivia? M: Yeah. I definitely…it also opened my eyes, like, I don‟t know, it helped me see that there‟s more to life than just myself. A: So, what would you say is your number one, all-time favorite thing about Bolivia, and the same thing for the United States? M: Ok, number one thing would probably be the people, just because, well they‟re warm, and they‟re easy going-ness. Like you go to Bolivia, you go to someone‟s house, they have no idea who you are, but they will just be the most caring person to you, and like, Bolivians are extremely hospitable. Like you will not leave their house unless you are like extremely full, and like anything they can do to make you happy they‟ll do it, like basically, yeah. And for the States, um, I don‟t know if I‟ve like found what I like best about it yet. A: Maybe like some top things? If you can‟t pick a favorite, not your all-time favorite, but just things that you really like about the States. Like didn‟t you say ketchup? M: Yeah, I just love American food cause it‟s so good. It‟s the best. They need to get that in Bolivia. M: Yeah, but like I guess like I really like the different opportunities. Like in Bolivia, if I had gone to an University in Bolivia, I would already have to know my major, there are only so many specific majors I can have, you can‟t have a minor, like it‟s very like, there are only, you don‟t get all this opportunity that you get here. Also, there‟s like tons of clubs, like on campus. Like, the Middle Eastern club, the fencing club, the, you know, there‟s a bunch of like a variety, like it opens up so many different paths for you to take. Which I think is really cool about the States. Yeah. …..I also like the four seasons. Not really I hate winter. A: I‟m guessing it never snows in Bolivia? M: It does, but not where I live. A: Like, up in the mountains? M: Yeah. A: Is it mostly like summer weather? Like what‟s the weather like in Bolivia would you say? Like just an average day. M: Well, in my city? A: Yeah. In your city. Page 12 �M: Ok, in my city, well I live in like a valley, so it‟s surrounded by mountains, um, so it‟s like spring weather year round. So it‟s like sunny the entire year and then like a certain time of year is when it‟s rainy season. And then that‟s it. But there‟s no humidity, so it‟s so nice. A: That sounds nice. M: I know. J: So um, going off cultural differences, and because of the fact that you don‟t know much about American culture, um, do you feel that people are ever really confused as to why you don‟t, if they don‟t know that you are from Bolivia? Like, are they ever like, „why don‟t you know this?‟ You know? Like if they bring up something about American culture, and you‟re like „wait what?‟ like are they ever confused like that? M: Yeah, and then I‟m just like, I just have to be like „I‟m from Bolivia.‟ And they‟ll be like „what? You live in Africa?‟…No I‟m kidding. But yeah, I get that a lot, a lot of people, like, almost everyone I‟ve met, doesn‟t think I‟m from a different country, just because, like I went to an International school, so I don‟t have an accent, I know English, I don‟t look like, like I‟m from Bolivia, so everyone just assumes that I‟m American. So, in a way, I don‟t know, it‟s kind of like, like I don‟t know, I‟m still debating on if I like the fact that I‟m white. But like obviously it‟s a good thing because like I‟m white so, there must be a reason for it, you know? But, no sometimes it‟s nice because no one really knows me until they actually want to. A: Ok and so also going off of culture difference, like is there any like culture shocks here? Like something you thought like „you guys really do that?‟ like, and Bolivia too, like things in Bolivia that like, you know would like be looked at weird here. ….do you need me to explain more? Like things that we do in America that you‟re like „what?‟ or like things that you do in Bolivia that people here would be like „what? You really do that Bolivia?‟ Like just like culture things like that. M: Well, I know that people, well like people here would see and think that what people eat in Bolivia is crazy. Because, because what we eat, what one of the best dishes that they have there is cow tongue, like it sounds disgusting, like to most Americans, but it‟s so good. And like, it Page 13 �makes sense, like If you‟re going to kill a cow, like you might as well eat every part of it. And to them it‟s tasty. So, yeah, um, I really, um think that people in the United States would think that‟s really weird. Something weird here…um, let me think…. J: I know you were talking about one day, since you are my roommate, um , you were talking about how you had to get used to the toilet paper issue? M: Oh yes! Ok, um, yeah like in Bolivia, you are not allowed to throw toilet paper into the toilet, because it will clog the drains, or the pipes. So, when I got to the States, it was the weirdest thing, because I‟d go to use the bathroom, and I would be looking for the trashcan. And there would be no trash can around the toilet, you know? So I‟d be like, where I am supposed to put this? So, yeah finally I got used to throwing it in the toilet. But that was just really weird for me. A: Do you ever forget when you‟re back in Bolivia and cause problems? M: Yeah, when I first get back, I always forget. And that‟s really bad. My dad gets so mad. …I guess like one other thing, even though Bolivia is modernizing in this way, but they usually use forks and knives for everything when they eat there, like even like a wrap or something, and like here they don‟t do that. Like, you like eat with your hands, you know? So I just thought that that was really weird. A: Yeah that is weird. M: Yeah….Oh! Another huge weird thing, well this is something my grandma told me a long time ago. But um, she told me that she went to a restaurant and they were ordering dessert and stuff right? And the girl asked oh, my grandma asked here if the brownies were like still in a package or like handmade, and the girl was like, um, she was like what do you mean handmade? Like she didn‟t know that there was another way to make brownies, like she thought they only came in a package, like for me like it was like exactly the opposite. Like in Bolivia, we make everything from scratch, so to like have a brownie like from like a package, I was like what? That was so weird for me, even though they‟re really good. A: Alright, well that‟s all of our questions, is there anything you would like just kind of like to Page 14 �add? Like to promote Bolivia, or just like… M: Yeah, everyone should go to Bolivia. It‟s amazing. No, I‟m serious, um, we have everything, we have mountains, we have jungle, we have beach, I mean we don‟t have a beach, but we used to. We have planes, we have the most dangerous, um, road on earth, that you can go biking on, which is so awesome. And I don‟t know, like people there are just awesome and their….everything is really cheap. That was another difference coming to the States is everything is so expensive here I can‟t use any money! But, oh yeah, and just the fact that like in Bolivia as a high schooler, it‟s really hard to get a job, like it‟s almost impossible. Whereas in the States, there‟s like so much opportunity, even though like right now they say that it‟s hard to get a job, compared to Bolivia, it‟s not hard to get a job at all. So, that was like a big difference too. And it‟s like actually fun being able to work here, I felt really independent. A: And where did you work? M: Um, I worked at the catering service at my University, I also worked at um, in the library of my University, and I also worked as a hostess during the summer. It‟s really cool that I like can like actually work in a restaurant because someday I want to open my own café. A: Alright, does anyone have anything else, like any more questions or anything else you would like to add? M: Um, I don‟t know, just like the fact that I think it‟s really cool, like I never realized how cool it was to realize people‟s differences, like even like the difference between the American culture and the Bolivian culture. Like at first I was like „oh, I don‟t know if I could really ever be really close to any of them because like they come from such a different, like background than me, you know? But I think now, like I see it as a different way that like they‟ve grown up, but it‟s like really cool because it‟s a totally different culture and it‟s like really cool to like learn like from them and they can also learn from you, you know, because you‟ve like grown up from a different culture and a different background too, so I just think it‟s really cool like diversity is like one of my favorite things because like it‟s awesome, you have no idea what German, like what it‟s like Page 15 �to be a German. You grow up in Germany your entire life, you know, so I want to promote diversity. A: Well, uh, thank you for your time. M: Yeah, you‟re welcome. A: It was a really great interview. M: Yeah, thanks for interviewing me. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5a99e39dff9a5659ae73c858d2115bb0.mp3 fecaa9873f4699f58577b92bddc3a25c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Sutherland_Maria Title A name given to the resource Maria Sutherland audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sutherland, Maria Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Burke, Kayla Noth, Jennifer Suriano, Alex Description An account of the resource Maria Sutherland is from Cochabamba, Bolivia. She describes her experience as an immigrant to the United States. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Discrimination against Hispanic Americans Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-31 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3953bc0fd4b3d533816b1fa3288f438a.pdf 55641b228202b60773a5bdd25bd47956 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jeffrey Sorensen Interviewers: Christina Ober, Anthony Weinke, Michael Doak and Max Sadler Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/4/2011 Runtime: 01:06:51 Biography and Description Jeffrey Sorensen grew up in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan. He discusses the stereotypes and misconceptions of “yoopers.” Transcript Christina: Describe your childhood growing up in the UP. How was it a normal childhood, and/or was it abnormal? Jeffrey: I’d say growing up in the UP, it was mostly normal. I mean, the UP’s a little bit, not as advanced as other places, but like compared to like other people growing up I didn’t have any big differences really. Except for the fact that I didn’t go hunting. Christina: How do people generally perceive ‘yoopers’ the stereotypes or misconceptions? Jeffrey: They all go hunting they all wear camo, we don’t have running water, yeah that’s about it. Christina: Do you think your family had any of those stereotypes that you didn’t? Jeffrey: Well, my brothers both always go hunting, and I don’t. My brothers own camo, and I don’t. All of the male members of my family own guns, and I don’t. Christina: Did your family ever try to influence you to do any of those stereotypes? Page 1 �Jeffrey: Not really, my brothers originally kinda tried to get me to go hunting, but they didn’t really care that I didn’t. I mean, I like shooting guns, so that isn’t a big thing, I just never bought one. Christina: Did you just not want to do it, or did you have other things going on? Jeffrey: It was a combination of I didn’t want to do it really, like it wasn’t my thing, and I was just busy with other stuff going on in school or other things like boy scouts or band or track or anything like that. Christina: How do you think masculinity played a role when you played sports throughout High school? Jeffrey: I don’t think it really was an issue, like I was the head captain of my track team, and everyone listened to me just like they would listen to anyone else, actually probably more than they would listen to them, I never really had any issues with people trying to be more masculine in track, so like trying to dominate my authority or anything like that. Christina: What experience with masculinity or imasculinity did you have during your high school career? Jeffrey: I was always a band geek, so that’s considered less masculine. But then I was also in track, so being in sports is supposed to be more masculine. I don’t know. There wasn’t really too much of a big distinguishment [sic] between masculinity and imasculinity other than when it came to sports. Christina: Do you have any clubs or groups at your school that support gaysor talk about gays at all? Jeffrey: When I was there, we didn’t. The year I left, they made one. Christina: Did you wish there were any? Page 2 �Jeffrey: At one point I tried to start one up, myself, and two other people were trying to start a GSA, a Gay Straight Alliance, but it just didn’t work out, we couldn’t find a teacher that was willing to be the advisor for it. Christina: Do you think that in your high school there were gays that came out, or did you mostly think they hid it, since there was nothing that helped them? Jeffrey: Well, there was, when I was there only one other guy was openly gay. But I know there was other people who were friends of mine that I knew were gay, but they weren’t open to everyone else. Christina: How do you think the idea of masculinity changed when going from High School to college, or do you think it doesn’t? Jeffrey: Well, in college, even less people care. For me, in High School, it wasn’t that big of a deal, but in college, it’s just not a deal, or not a big deal, at all. Nobody really cares. I would say there’s a greater variation of masculinity and imasculinity, but it’s not something that people really care about. Christina: Do you think they have a lot more clubs and things that you can talk to other people like you than your high school? Jeffrey: Yeah, there’s definitely a lot more. I mean, I think of three different groups right off the top of my head, where my high school had nothing. Christina: What experience have you had in college with masculinity or imasculinity? Jeffrey: Um… Christina: Do you partake in any of the groups at Grand Valley? Page 3 �Jeffrey: Well, I’m not involved in any of the LGBT groups at Grand Valley, it’s not really something I care to be a part of, but I’m involved in other groups, like I’m a founding father of a fraternity, which generally you would think a fraternity is this really masculine type organization, but yet I’m still a founding father. Christina: What do you think is the role masculinity plays in a fraternity? Jeffrey: Masculine role in a fraternity? Even the guys in our fraternity who are straight, there’s a lot fo them who really aren’t masculine. Some of them are, some of them aren’t, some of them are kind of in between, so I really don’t think it plays a role. Christina: What kind of stereotype do you think a fraternity has and do you think yours follows in any of those stereotypes? Jeffrey: A lot of those stereotypes are just like that frats like to party, like to drink, that to join you have to go through a huge ordeal, that there’s a lot of hazing, basically just guys that are really macho and a lot of people describe them as tools, but my fraternity, and a lot of fraternities on campus, we don’t really fit those stereotypes, we try not to be tools, which that depends on your definition of tools. But we try not to act like we own the place, like a lot of fraternities do, we’re kind of trying to change that stereotype, especially at Grand Valley. We want to be different, we want to be a diverse group, not a group that’s like a bunch of guys who are all the same. We’ve got a wide range of guys from gay, bi, straight, and then we have a few different races within our fraternity too. Christina: Have you ever had any problems with your fraternity, being gay? Jeffrey: Well, I’m totally open to my fraternity. Everyone knows I’m gay, I have openly talked about going on dates with guys, and nobody’s really cared that I talk about it. We’re all brothers, we support each other, even if someone doesn’t necessarily agree with it, because we’re brothers, they’re going to support it. Christina: Do you think being in a fraternity at grand valley is different than if you were in a fraternity at a bigger school, like Michigan or State? Do you think that you’d be perceived differently as gay? Page 4 �Jeffrey: I think being gay wouldn’t necessarily effect it. It could. The bigger schools tend to have fraternities that have more hazing and stuff like that, and I think that being gay might effect how much I would be hazed. I would assume that a gay person would be hazed more than a straight person. But I would say once they’re in the fraternity it wouldn’t be any different than it is here. Christina: So, if you went to one of those schools, you wouldn’t have thought different about joining a fraternity? Jeffrey: I would’ve thought differently because of the hazing part of it and me being gay, I would expect to be hazed more, so for that reason I probably wouldn’t have gone Greek. Christina: Going back to your childhood, when do you first think you found out you were gay, and describe the process. Jeffrey: I would say I’ve known most of my life. I started getting a pretty good idea of it when I was in 5th grade though. Even before that, looking back, I can kind of see the signs of “oh yeah, I wasn’t the same.” Fifth grade was about the time I was figuring out that I liked guys, and the after a couple more years I was trying to figure out if I just liked guys and liked girls or if I just liked guys, or whatever. After seventh grade I figured out that I’m not attracted to girls at all, and that I’m only attracted to guys. I’d say by eighth grade I knew for sure that I was just gay, not bi. But I’ve showed the signs that I was different since second grade probably. At recess I would play with the girl friends instead of go play sports with the guys, I didn’t like a lot of the same things that the guys liked. I wasn’t into a lot of sports. I mean, I wasn’t into girly things, I just wasn’t into sports so I hung out with girls more often. Christina: You told me before that you dated girls while in High School. Do you think that was a way of you showing masculinity and following in the footsteps of the male figures around you? Jeffrey: I didn’t date girls in high school, but I did in middle school. But I don’t think that was me trying to prove anything to anyone, it was more I wasn’t sure at that point whether I liked girls or if I just liked guys. During middle school, I dated girls to try to figure out if I did like girls or not. At that point I knew that I liked guys, but I needed to figure out whether I liked girls, or if I was just gay. Christina: Describe the event of coming out to your parents. Page 5 �Jeffrey: I told my mom. I never told my dad, but I’m pretty sure my mom told her, him. When I came out to my mom, it was because I was telling her about one of my friends who happened to be gay, and I mentioned that part and she said “well why are you friends with him?” And then eventually she said “If he’s gay, why are you friends with him?” and my response was “because I am too.” And she didn’t take it very well. At first she didn’t really know what to think, she didn’t really believe me I guess. She didn’t know if I knew for sure that I was gay, but at that point I was a junior in High School, and I had known for many years. She even told me I shouldn’t tell my dad. She didn’t want me to really openly pursue a gay relationship, and she wanted me to kinda just for the most part keep it to myself, which to me wasn’t something I could do, and at that point I was pretty much completely open in school, all my friends knew, most of the other people in the school knew, it was just my family that didn’t know at that point. Christina: How did you come out to your brothers, and based on the stereotype of brothers in a family competing to be the best and giving each other a hard time, did that happen? Jeffrey: Well, when I came out to my brothers, both of them had already moved out. I was the only one living at home, and actually at that point I wasn’t really living at home anymore, I was off getting ready for college and I was living with one of my brothers. But, when we were younger we had that concept of brothers always competing, but now that we’re older, we’re just that; we are brothers, and we are family. So, I told my brothers one night, my oldest brother threw a party, and first I told my oldest brother’s fiancé, and then she kinda helped me because she already knew about it, but was trying to get me to tell her on my own time, so once I told her she kinda had me practice, because the goal was to tell my brother by the end of the night. So she had me practice by telling her brother and her best friend, and one of her cousins, and some of the other people at the party, and finally the last person I told was my brother. So we kinda pulled him aside, and she said “your brother has something to tell you.” And she said “it’s something you’ve kinda had suspicions on for a while, but never really knew for sure.” So I just said that I’m gay, and his response was “yeah, and?” My other brother I didn’t tell, but I told his girlfriend, and I gave her permission to tell him, and he already knew too, she told me he already knew, but didn’t want to assume. She just confirmed it for him. With both of my brothers I can openly talk about being gay. If I’m in a relationship with someone, my middle brother I can talk to, he’s okay with me sharing stuff about that. He’s not good at giving any advice, but he’s willing to listen. My oldest brother is a little uncomfortable with the relationships, but that’s mostly just because he’s my brother, and a lot of the time you don’t want to hear about your sibling’s relationships, so it’s just the same concept. But, if I really needed to talk to him, he would be willing to. Like I said, we are brothers, and we outgrew that competing stage and now we’re just completely supportive of each other. Christina: Do you think it helped a lot that your brothers accepted you since your parents technically didn’t? Page 6 �Jeffrey: I would say with my parents being how they were, they didn’t really want me to be open about it, but my brothers are very supportive and they know how my parents reacted so when I officially came out to them they told me like if I can’t go to Mom and Dad for something then I can go to them. They basically wanted to make sure that I knew that just because they’re my brothers and I don’t have sisters they wanted me to know even though they’re guys I can still go to them. They might not know necessarily how to deal with something but because they’re my brothers they will try to help me if I ever need them. Christina: How did you come out to your friends and did you do this before or after you did to your family? Jeffrey: I came out to my friends first, and just like my brothers they already knew, it was just a matter of me telling them, so during my junior year I kind of slowly told my closer friends and the general response was yeah what’s new. Everyone knew, it wasn’t a surprise to anyone it was more a surprise that I was finally telling them. I would say by the end of my junior year I was out to everyone. Of course all of my friends knew and before I even came out everyone pretty much knew I was gay, there wasn’t much surprise there. My closest friends were supportive of it and I kind of left after junior year unsure of how senior year was going to be because I came out to the rest of the school right at the end of the year. Then senior year came around and basically I just walked in the door and flaunted it, but not really flaunted it, but owned it. I was myself. I wasn’t trying to hide anything anymore. I kind of had a hint of what it was like to be myself and for everyone to know who I am and be supportive of that so senior year I didn’t try to hide anything and I was just myself from that point on. Christina: You said that your friends pretty much already knew, do you think your parents had any idea prior to you coming out? Jeffrey: I think they kind of had an idea but a lot of parents aren’t too thrilled to hear if their son is gay so I think they probably kind of had the idea but they were more denying it than anything to the point that they didn’t really believe it. I know my mom was kind of shocked by it but part of that is before that I would come home and say like I heard this rumor about me and it has to do with me being gay and my mom would never ask me if the rumor was true but because I was upset about rumors like that like she just assumed that they weren’t true and I think she assumed that that was kind of my way of saying they weren’t true but because I was her son she was getting the wrong message I guess. Christina: Your relationship with your parents now do you not feel as comfortable now as you did before? Do you think they think differently of you? Jeffrey: I would actually say I’m more comfortable now because like before I was just the oddball son I didn’t do the same thing as my brothers, I didn’t go hunting and stuff like that. I was the one that was always involved in band and other organizations and stuff but never like the big sports but I did track but that’s not considered one of the big sports but like my parents I think before I came out to them they didn’t really have an excuse for me to be Page 7 �different it was just I was the oddball son they never had a problem with it but I kind of did. But then after I came out now they know why I’m a little bit different from my brothers they know that the reason I’m little bit more flamboyant is because I’m gay and a lot of those gay stereotypes that they didn’t have an excuse for before they now have an excuse for. Christina: Have you ever actually sat down with your Dad and talked about being gay or is it basically just your mom? Jeffrey: So far it’s been just my mom and I haven’t even talked to her enough to know what all he knows I just know that he knows I’m gay and that might be the extent of it but between my dad and I it’s just like a unspoken thing. I don’t know if he’s really comfortable with talking about it. He doesn’t treat me any differently he treats me now just like he did when I was a kid so nothings changed there. I know he knows, and he knows that I know he knows and that’s the extent of it. We don’t talk about it, he never brings it up. We’ve actually never talked about it at all. Christina: How does religion play a role and how has it throughout your life? Jeffrey: Most of my life I wasn’t religious at all but then during high school a lot of my friends were really religious, they went to church every sunday they went to the local bible camp and basically the entire summer was filled with different events at the bible camp. I had a lot of friends that did different mission trips and were involved in different ministries all around but I wasn’t involved in that stuff so being friends with those people I started getting more and more involved and I became really religious I was probably one of the most religious of my friends for a while. I went to church every sunday I ended up controlling some of the audio visual stuff at the church and then I was working at the bible camp as a high ropes instructor and when I wasn’t scheduled to instruct there I would help out around there. If they didn’t need any extra help there I would go to another part of the camp and volunteer and help out. I was involved in a worship band that traveled around to all the churches in the area and we did different performances and lead worship and stuff all over the place. We had our own ministry stuff going on throughout the week so on an average week I was doing stuff for different weeks but religion based probably four days a week and then at one point my church kind of caught wind that I was gay and the leaders of the church pulled me aside and asked me about it but I wasn’t really telling them anything and eventually kind of figured out I wasn’t denying it but I wasn’t confirming it either so they figured out what they heard was true so they decided first I couldn’t control the audio visual stuff anymore and they said that was a leadership position and they couldn’t have someone that was gay doing a leadership position. I told them if I wasn’t doing that I wasn’t going to go to their church anymore. I quit going but they basically pulled me back in and said that they didn’t want me to leave it was just because it was a leadership position and they don’t want people to get the wrong idea which I didn’t agree with at all but some of my best friends went to that church so I didn’t want to stop going so I decided to keep going. I eventually stopped going to church though. I slowly stopped attending their services every week. First I would go every other week, then every three weeks, and eventually I quit going altogether. I kept going to the youth group at one point one of the Page 8 �leaders pulled me aside and kept asking me about being gay and asking if I was going to change. I told him I wasn’t going to change, I wasn’t willing to change, and it wasn’t possible for me to change. At that point his daughter was my best friend and he told me he didn’t want me ever talking to her again. I quit going to the youth group then. The only reason he became a leader of that youth group was to watch me and make sure I wasn’t going to influence anyone. So I quit going, and I kinda, at that point like, it was the winter so I kind of silently quit working there, cuz it was the off-season so I wouldn’t be working anyway so I just didn’t show up the next summer. Um, and with the worship band at that point they were the only ones that I felt comfortable talking to. Um, so I told the woman who was in charge of the ministry that the worship band was for, and well I told her and her son, and he was becoming one of my best friends. Um, he was the lead in the worship band, and like we hung out quite a bit. Um, so I told the two of them and, they didn’t try to kick me out right away, but they told me they can’t have me like openly gay in the worship band. Um, they said if it just stayed between them they wouldn’t try to kick me out or anything, they just couldn’t have like that image, I guess. Um, mainly because it was nondenominational, um so we were going around to different churches, they didn’t want to do anything that would take away from what a certain church was trying to enforce. So I kept going to the worship band stuff for a while, but they kept trying to kinda say like “have you thought about changing?” like “Are you willing to change?” and I started getting less comfortable with hanging around them so I slowly stopped going to that. So that was like my last religious like organization that I quit going to and like since then I haven’t gone to church, um, when I came to Grand Valley I didn’t start going to church again. Um, I pretty much just like, quit religion. Um, at this point I’m not religious in any way; um I don’t really have any kind of belief system. I’m not agnostic, I’m not atheist, like I just don’t have a belief system, and I don’t really care to develop some kind of belief system, but um, it’s one of those things where I’m open to the idea, but because of my past I’m not going to actively try to develop some kind of new religious beliefs. Christina: Do you think if your church would have been accepting to you in the very beginning that it would be completely different now? Jeffrey: I don’t think that it would be completely different, because I’m sure most of the people at the church knew, maybe not some of the older ones who weren’t used to seeing gay people, but for the most part, all the younger people in the church I’m pretty sure knew, especially the one that went to my school, or even their parents. Like, they all knew so I don’t think it would have been hugely different, and about when I stopped going to the church isn’t really that long before I moved out of the house and moved in with my brother, um downstate just before coming to Grand Valley. So I don’t think it would be that different, but I don’t think I would have like a negative, um, I don’t think I would have some kind of like negative feeling towards religion, if they were accepting right away, but other than how I feel about religion, I don’t think that it would be much different. Page 9 �Christina: Yea, if they, when you came out, if they were completely acceptable of it and said we want you to stay here and we accept that you’re gay, do you think you would have kept going and then when you came to Grand Valley would occasionally think more religiously than you do now or do you think you still would have straight away? Jeffrey: I think if that was the case I probably would have kept going to church, um, while I was there I would have kept going to that church, and then when I came to Grand Valley I probably would have found a church to go to, um, and I might have actually been involved in like a worship band here or something along those lines. Christina: Do you kind of wish that had happened or do you think that it happened for a reason? Jeffrey: I’m for the most part a believer in that everything happens for a reason, and I feel like if the church and the worship band and the bible camp and everything wasn’t or if they were more accepting maybe I would have ended up staying in the U.P., but part of the reason why I came down to Grand Valley was because, the U.P. isn’t as accepting of like gay people. There’s really not that many. So it might have influenced where I ended up now, but like like I said, I am a firm believer in everything happens for a reason, so I feel like part of it was kind of I was meant to maybe not necessarily be non religious, but at least meant to come here. And that was one of the things that kind of pushed me away from the U.P. to come here. Christina: Do you think the religious groups on campus think of gays differently than your church back home do? Jeffrey: Um, I think some of them do, but some of them don’t. Christina: Based on now where you are in your life, do you think everyone is accepting of your orientation? Jeffrey: I think anyone who I associate with like on a regular basis, like anyone who is a friend of mine or involved with any organizations with me, um I would say like they are all completely accepting. Obviously, if they weren’t accepting, they wouldn’t be my friend. Um, I never really hear anything about anyone not being accepting of me specifically, um, I mean obviously I am gonna hear like about people Page 10 �being not accepting of gay people in general, but I never hear it specifically towards me because of me being gay. Christina: Do you find it different in class or anything with the way you look and the way you talk, and how you like perceive yourself, do you find any problems with the peers in your classes or around campus? Jeffrey: Not really, um, Grand Valley has a lot of gay people so it’s something everyone is used to, and like, I mean a lot of people dress really well here, but then at the same there’s gay people here that don’t dress very well at all. So I would say like how I dress isn’t a big issue, because there’s a lot of gay people who dress really well, and there a lot of straight people who dress really well. Um, I would say how I talk is more feminine so like straight guys for the most part like their voice isn’t gonna be as feminine as mine, but like nobody really cares. Um, like everyone is their own person, and I think everyone here like realizes that, so the way different people dress or talk or act like doesn’t really phase anyone. Christina: Do you feel a lot more comfortable through expressing yourself at Grand Valley than you did at home and places away from Grand Valley? Jeffrey: Well, like, when I’m at school at Grand Valley, like I’m completely open I can be myself. There’s no one here that I feel like I need to hide anything from. But then like if I go home, because my parents aren’t comfortable with me being gay, they know about it, but because they‘re not comfortable with it I try to give them that little bit of comfortablility, where like I’m not going to be totally flamboyant in front of them. Um, a lot of my extended family doesn’t know, so I’m not going to act really gay in front of them, um, so when I go home I kind feel like I’m confined to how I acted before I was open, so I don’t really like to go home, but I think as I’m getting older my parents are kind of getting more used to me being more flamboyant because just as I grew up I became more and more flamboyant, because I was kind of becoming more comfortable with myself. It’s just not to the point where I’m comfortable with my parents, but the older I get the more comfortable I get with it and, and the more I kind of act more like gay in front of my parents. Um, I care about what they think and don’t want to make them uncomfortable, but at the same time I need to kind of put them out of their comfort zone a little bit, because I’m their son so they kind of have to get used to it, because it’s not changing. Christina: Do you think you’re ever going to be completely yourself around them? How long do you think that might take? Page 11 �Jeffrey: Um, well eventually I would like to be. I would like to be open to like my entire extended family. Um, I don’t know if that will actually ever happen or how long it will take. Um, I would say if I did I wanted to start coming out to more people it would probably start with some of my cousins because they are like my age level or somewhere close. So, like they are the ones that because they are younger and I’m sure they have been exposed to more like gay people they would be the ones who would already pretty much know. Just like my friends knew or my brothers knew and a lot of the people in the church knew. So it wouldn’t be a big deal. Um, my like extended family like my aunts, and grandparents, and uncles, um, they might be a lot harder to tell. I think when it gets to that point I might just kind of be myself and let them think whatever they want to think. Um, I don’t really feel like it’s necessary that I go and tell everyone, because if I just be myself they’re gonna know, and if they don’t know, either way they’re family, and knowing my family, like they won’t disown me, like they’ll accept me for who I am. So, I’d say eventually I’ll be out to my whole family, and at that point like, the more out I am to the rest of my family, the more my parents are gonna be exposed to. So the more they’re gonna have to get more comfortable with it. Christina: How do you feel about the laws surrounding being gay? Such as gay marriage. Jeffrey: Well, at some point I would like to be married, so obviously I want the laws to say that gay people can get married. And I prefer to not have to move to different state in order to be married or go to a different state to be married and then come back to my own state and not be recognized. Like if I'm living in Michigan I want to be able to be married and live in Michigan and have that marriage be recognized, or wherever I end up. And then, along those same lines, like most states don't allow for a gay couple to adopt, even if they're allowed to be married, a lot of states don't allow for them to adopt a child and being like two men or two women it's hard to have a child of your own so along those same lines I think it shouldn't be harder for gay people to be able to adopt a kid because they can be just as good parents as a strait couple. Christina: What do you think its going to take for these laws to actually change? Jeffrey: I think its just a matter of time. Slowly more and more states get added to the list of the ones that allow gay marriage and the ones that don't allow gay marriage a lot of theme are allowing civil unions and domestic partnerships, which aren't the same but at least its a step towards allowing gay marriage. Eventually the other states are going to keep adding more and more to what they allow. As a whole, society is becoming more accepting of people who are different in any way. So it's really just a matter of time until enough people are accepting of it that when it comes to a vote people will vote for gay marriage to be legalized and for gay adoption to be legalized. And eventually it will be pretty much as easy to live a gay life as to live a strait life. There's still going to be some hardships for gay people but I Page 12 �think its just a matter of time until it evens out as much as it's going to. Christina: Going back to stereotypes, what do you feel and how do you think the stereotypes for a strait man differ from a gay man? Jeffrey: Stereotypes for a strait man is usually more masculine, plays sports, maybe more muscular guys. And then even like a lot of times one stereotype is what they drink. More masculine men might drink beer, where a gay person may drink a fruity drink. But then the stereotypes with gay people are usually more flamboyant, they dress better. Strait people might wear clothing that doesn't look the greatest or maybe a lot of athletic wear and gay people tend to wear the name brands like Express or BKE and stuff like that, where as strait men don't want to spend the money like that. Even like kind of with the way we act, strait men usually are more macho, try to be like the alpha male. Gay men can be kind of like the same way, but we still want to be like in charge but we kind of have our own way of doing it. We don't just try to just look intimidating and get our way by being big and muscular. But, I would say gay people are generally thought to be more, maybe not smart, but conniving. We kind of know how people think because obviously we are guys so we know how guys think for the most part but we relate to girls so we kind of know how they think too, so we kind of have an edge on things and we tend to have a better understanding of both groups, males and females. Christina: How do you think our society stresses these stereotypes through the media and television and movies? Jeffrey: Well in a lot of TV shows and movies if there's a gay person in it they're usually pretty flamboyant, they don't usually have the strait acting gay people because then you wouldn't really know that they're gay. So generally when you see a gay person on the a TV or movie they're really gay and flamboyant and they probably have a higher voice so I would say with strait people in the media theres a lot of variation there, but when it comes to gay people they don't have a very big variation they mostly just they're all flamboyant. Christina: Do you think the media over exaggerates these qualities in gays and straights? Jeffrey: I would say for the most part with strait people they don't over exaggerate because there's enough variation and they show the variations with different strait people, but with gay people, like I said they tend to show mostly the really flamboyant guys so there really isn't enough of a variation to go away from enforcing the stereotype. Page 13 �Christina: Do you think the media is slowing changing into showing more of these gays that are in sports and gays who are in fraternities over how they use to show gays? Jeffrey: I would say in general gay people are showing up in the media a little bit more so that kind of overflows into showing more gay people in fraternities or gay people in sports, but I would say that overall because they're showing more its just overflowing to all areas where its considered a more masculine thing. Christina: Okay, those are all of my question, do you guys have any? Michael: I'm kind of curious because you reference masculinity a few times, and I know its a hard question to kind of deal with it but how would you describe masculinity? Jeffrey: I would say to me masculinity is more like the macho, involved in the things that are considered more manly, like sports and being muscular. Where as femininity is when someone is more girly, flamboyant, cares about their looks a little bit more, and dresses well. Anthony: Was track the only sport you did in high school? Jeffrey: Track was the only sport I did just because I was also involved in the band so during the other seasons I would be doing stuff with the band so track was the only season I was available for. Anthony: Is there any reasons besides track that you didn't do the other sports, I know like football and basketball are stereotyped as more masculine or macho thing to do? Did that play a role? Jeffrey: Well I didn't really like football so I don't really know if me being gay was the reason or not. I just didn't like football. So thats why I wasn't in that. But then when it came to basketball season the jazz band played during basketball games so thats why I wouldn't be involved in it so I actually like basketball so I think if I wasn't so involved in the band I would probably have tried out for the basketball team. I wouldn't have been that great but I would have at least tried out for the JV team. Page 14 �Anthony: Did you say you were also in boy scouts? Jeffrey: Yea, I was involved in boy scouts between like fifth grade and senior year. Anthony: How far did you go with that? Did you stay with it pretty actively? Jeffrey: For the most part as long as I was in it I was pretty active. Kind of the last couple years I was involved in so much other stuff that it was hard for me to be really active in boy scouts but I went to as much as I could. Anthony: Did you, in boy scouts, were you like openly gay with them and the other scouts in the group or with the adult leaders? Jeffrey: Not with the adult leaders. Some of the scouts that were right around my age that were right within a few grades of me knew, but by the time I was a junior or senior we had scouts who were in the seventh or eight grade and I didn't feel like it was appropriate for me to be completely open in front of them so they didn't know and then the leaders didn't know. Michael: I'm kind of curious, you said that in, I think it was middle school you weren't really interested in sports at all, or more in general in elementary school you weren't that interested in sports and you considered that sort of a sign that you were gay. What changed your mind I guess because I'm kind of curious what the evolution was between that and then high school wanting to possibly play basketball and being in track? Jeffrey: I would say in elementary school the big sport was football, no one really played basketball at recess. People just went out to the field and played football and I wasn't a big contact sport type of person so I would say it wasn't so much I wasn't interested in sports in general, but more I wasn't interested in the sports being played at that time. So then in middle school, I had always been a good runner, mostly because I was always running away from my brother but because I was such I good runner I really began to enjoy running so therefore I enjoyed track and I became one of the fastest runners so I was one of the people becoming in charge of the group so that’s why I was involved in track an why I enjoyed it so much. And then with basketball, I'm not sure what really attracted me to Page 15 �basketball but its not like a big contact sport so I think that was a big reason why I like basketball verses football. Anthony: I have one more, you said there are a lot of like adult leaders in your troop and your parents, do you think that’s a generational thing where they're not as okay with it and do you think as America as a whole becomes more okay with it is it older adults becoming okay with it or do you think it's just a lot of younger people? Jeffrey: I would say some adults are becoming more okay with it. The big thing is they didn't grow up with it so it something that they have to adjust to after already kind of knowing how society works, it's like its changing so they have to adjust to it. Which not everyone is totally okay with doing, But our generation is growing up with gay people being in the media, and just knowing gay people, and seeing gay people in public. So I think, and this might sound a little bit morbid, but as the older generations die off and what’s left is the younger generations it will become more accepted as a whole. Christina: Alright, thank you. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0b9bda8f76e0e8703267045019bdd6ae.mp3 ff89646dd1ee3686fc17287e221f769f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Sorensen_Jeffrey Title A name given to the resource Jeffrey Sorensen audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sorensen, Jeffrey Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ober, Christina Weinke, Anthony Doak, Michael Sadler, Max Description An account of the resource Jeffrey Sorensen grew up in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan. He discusses the stereotypes and misconceptions of "yoopers." Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-04 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a69a5d94a46ffd04f2920a49b1e235c2.pdf 26c4e3c298a0ce8558ad2c2f1cb23c8d PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Christian Vannier Interviewers: Spencer and Tom Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Deparment Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/15/2011 Runtime: 00:56:24 Biography and Description Christian Vannier discusses the civil rights differences between western and eastern Michigan. In particular, he draws on his experiences at Wayne State University and Grand Valley State University. Transcript Spencer: Could you start out by giving us some basic information about yourself? For example your name, date and place of birth, family, education, etc. Professor Vannier: I was born August 16, 1985. I was actually born in San Jose, California because my parents were living out there at the time. My brother was born there too but then we moved back to Michigan and my father went to work in the auto industry. My father was born and raised and he started in Detroit then moved out to the suburbs with the wave of migration when everybody moved out to the suburbs. Born and raised in Southfield, my grandfather worked on the line for ford. My father eventually got a job there too. My father went to Michigan State, my mother went to Michigan State and so they met. So they are both educated and both got bachelor degrees. And afterwards they lived in Texas and California where I was born, eventually moved back and my father become a white collar worker and eventually rose in the ranks to become the head of international marketing with Ford. And he worked at that for a long time and in high school I barely saw him because he was always in Saudi Arabia or China or Columbia. You know all these different places where he was doing all this stuff. He would always bring me sweet stuff. He’s got piello head scars from Palestine from when he worked in Palestine. He always had awesome stories, which got me interested in anthropology. Like when working in Palestine he would talk about when you go over to Palestine the Palestinian border guards would be like “Hey Detroit! Detroit Pistons!” They want to know about basketball and stuff like that. And everybody would have fun and whatnot. Now going over to the Israel side, they would pull the trick where one guy would come up and ask for your passport and he would leave and another guy would come up and ask for your passport. “That guy just took it.” “No he didn’t.” Just to get you nervous and search your car if you speak out of turn just to give you a hard time. It was awful. But I would go over to the Palestinian side and everybody high fives you and off you go. It was great. But yeah, I got piello head scars, an old Yemini’s dagger Page 1 �made out of rhinoceros horn. But that’s what really got me into anthropology, is doing that kind of international stuff. Eventually my dad quit working for Ford and opened up his own company to do this stuff. Where he worked he was the head of the American branch of an English company. So he had to go to and from England all of the time and I would go with him at 18, 19 years old and hang out in London all day. It was fun. But eventually with the recession and everything collapses so it did to. It went the way of everything else. But he actually paid for my entire undergraduate education. He paid for my brother to go to Western, I went to Michigan, my youngest sister went to Bowling Green, and my other sister went to Purdue. It was never a question in our family; you were going to a university. You grow up under that assumption. That’s what you do. You don’t ever question that you’re going to a university. So we did, and like a lot of ways I told in class is like Miles violinists, we followed that pattern. And that is such a Detroit path. That is what Detroit gave America. Where the first persons in total poverty and works on the line, builds up an economic base. The second person gets educated because of that economic base and really builds an economic base. The third generation, you don’t have to worry about money so you can become an anthropologist. I have a geologist, anthropologist, businesswoman, and artist. That’s the four siblings. My brother is finishing up his PhD at Michigan State in Geology. That’s basically the story and I did my undergrad at Michigan. After that I just tooled around. I didn’t want to go right back to graduate school so I went to work for, like I said, an American branch of and English company. So I moved to London for six months then the German branch for six months where I lived in Cologne. Came back didn’t know what to do with myself so I moved, joined AmeriCore went out to Washington State and lasted about six months to doing that before coming all the way back to Ann Arbor where I eventually decided to go back to graduate school. I chose Wayne State a lot of it because it was local and a lot of it because they had somebody I wanted to work with. I wanted to work in the Caribbean. There was a professor at Wayne State that I wanted to go work with because he was an old Haitian man that did anthropology the old school way. You know, go out there on your own in some village hut. Hindsight maybe gave me the wrong idea because that’s not the way the field went these days but that’s what I did. Eventually I graduated, got a job in the honors college at Wayne State. Did that for four years then I came over here. Where I got my first visiting assistant professorship because the job market in higher academics sucks. All of the universities are getting cut. When they cut they do hiring freezes and they do all sorts of stuff so there’s just no jobs available. People keep graduating and it is just a flooded job market. So I’m pretty lucky to get this job and I am so lucky to get something in Grand Valley because I got family in Freemont. It’s about 45 or 50 minutes north of here. That’s where my mother is originally from so I got my grandmother and aunts and uncles up there so I’m really lucky to be on this side of the state. Because there was always a big fear in higher academics, it was always a big joke that you were going to end up at Arkansas agricultural and mineral college. Or moving to Miami of Ohio. It’s a nice place but there are cornfields for hours. It is in rural Ohio. It’s a big joke and that’s where you would end up or something like that. I knew a guy that took a job at the University of Alabama and he said it’s awesome until you step foot off campus and realize you’re in Alabama. He just lives on campus, that’s all. He barely leaves. He’s from New York City though so it’s a huge difference. So yeah that’s basically short life history. But really I think the experience that really made me was growing up in Detroit because Detroit is a very different place, very different place and it’s not like people think it is. Especially right now, it’s really happening in Detroit. We focus on the inner city of Detroit, which is super poor, now it’s changing. But it was super poor and all of the white flight came in. In the rankings of white flight I think were fifth. St. Louis had more white flight, Milwaukee had more white flight, and Buffalo had the most white flight. Were Detroit, were known for riots. We barely riot; we’ve had a couple. But the last one was Page 2 �in 1967. Why isn’t LA known for riots? They burned down their city like clockwork every about 25 years. And there not know for rioting. Were know for racial segregation but New York is more racial segregation than we are, Milwaukee is more racial segregation then we are. But I think what it is that Detroit built itself up to the top. Were the number one city in America like in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s. Were known as the Paris of the western hemisphere and when you’re that high you have so far to fall and that’s why everyone focused on Detroit. But especially when it comes to civil rights. Spencer: Are there any differences between civil rights in Detroit and Grand Rapids? Professor Vannier: Civil rights in Detroit is really, really different because it’s kind of but not really the birth place of civil rights but “I Have A Dream” was given in Detroit first before Washington D.C. Malcolm X was from Detroit and Louis Farrakhan founded the first black mosque in America in Detroit. Malcolm X used to preach there. And a big reason is that it’s the end of the Underground Railroad; it’s the end of the line in Detroit. You go all the way from the South up into Detroit where you would have to hide out in all these old churches in Detroit and have all these secret passageways where they would keep slaves. And the big Mason Lodge, one of the biggest Mason Lodges in the country has all these underground secret passages. You can tour them and they say it’s where they keep slaves running away. But they would also have the slave hunter stay there too. And there’s nothing wrong with slaves eater dinner, slave hunters eating dinner and wall in between them. Because the loop hole is you swim across the river to Canada your free. And because of that Detroit has always had this strong background. One of our riots, I think the 1943 riot, we always had a strong black middle class in Detroit and we had all these southerners coming up to join the auto industry and southerners were coming up thinking they could treat blacks like they treated them in the South. And that’s what started the riot. Young guys versus young guys and these black middle class kids aren’t going to deal with that attitude and it started the whole thing. You have always seen that in Detroit and its very different. Moving out here was really different from moving from Detroit. Like just the way we organize ourselves between classes and stuff like that in Grand Rapids is super different than Detroit. I’ve never been to Grand Rapids before I came here. And my first day, I got this job and I had to find a place to live, and the first day I stepped a foot in Grand Rapids was that day that guy went crazy and shot eight people. That was that day. I was driving down the street tank fast. And I always thought it was badass to live in Detroit. Grand Rapids is tough. And I would ask people where to live, because I always thought it was nice town, and I would ask where to live and people would tell me don’t live south of Wealthy. What the hell is south of Wealthy? It’s very different than Detroit. In Detroit it’s suburb based. Ferndale is nice, anywhere in Ferndale is pretty nice but every place has it’s bad areas. Royal Oak, everywhere in Royal Oak is very nice. Birmingham, you can live anywhere in Birmingham and it’s very nice. Highland Park, don’t live there it’s not so nice. River Rouge not so nice. Then you get into the blue-collar suburbs of Taylor, Westland we call wasteland, Garden City we call garbage city. That’s just blue collar, super blue collar. Here it was different. You go three streets over and you’re in a bad neighborhood all of a sudden. How did this happen? It’s a lot more of what you would see in Brooklyn. Where super nice street, two streets over and it’s super bad. It’s way more like that here where it’s not in Detroit. Where I lived in Burkley you could walk miles and be in nice suburban land; miles and it just doesn’t change. Here it changes and it can change really quickly. I don’t know the history of Grand Rapids and I don’t know why we organize ourselves like that. Like in Detroit it’s a lot of Page 3 �racism where suburbs would guard themselves from anybody moving from Detroit in there. Dearborn is famous for it. They are famous for it for putting up rules and restrictions and all sorts of stuff that prevent black people moving in to the neighborhood. It’s not like that anymore but still to this day there are color lines and dividing lines. Like the difference from Grosse Pointe right across the street from Detroit, and it’s like $500,000 and then a crack house. But Jefferson road is that dividing line. That’s why 8 Mile is such that line. And when you look at population maps, that line is just firm. Instead now a days 8 Mile goes through the suburb of Southfield, which has become the vast gem of the black middle and upper classes. Because they have acknowledged becoming a class thing where middle class flee Detroit. It’s not really race based anymore. But Detroit is changing because it’s now the fasting growing population in Detroit. It was throughout the 80’s, 90’s and 2000’s it was the Mexican population because of Mexican town. That was the fastest growing population in Detroit. Now its young 20 something year old white people. All moving in. And you see it changing everything. All moving in. Hipsters. That’s essentially what it is. Hipsters are moving in to Detroit. And they are bringing with them hip bars and hip restaurants and you see this under-current of change happening in Detroit. Like downtown is getting nicer and nicer and mid-town now is getting nicer and nicer. Tom: But the thing about Detroit is like when you drive there I see so many abandoned buildings and the thing is if they actually want to make the city look nicer they have to do something about those. Professor Vannier: Yeah and that’s one of the great things about Detroit, they can’t. Because those abandoned buildings are owned and you just can’t. We don’t have eminent domain laws, I mean we do but they are super strong eminent domain laws. Where if the city wanted that abandoned building the city would take that abandoned building. The train station is owned by Matty Maroon. And he will not sell it so there it is. Have you ever been to Hockey Town Café? Us: Yeah. Professor Vannier: You know across 75 those tall abandoned buildings, those are owned by Mike Ilitch and he won’t sell them, that’s the end of it. Magic Johnson tried to buy them and he was going to install this huge mega complex theatre shopping mall. Nope. So it would be there and we would all be like wow Detroit is looking so nice but it’s not because Mike Ilitch refuses to sell those buildings. Tom: And that’s weird because Mike Ilitch is seen as like the guy who is saving Detroit. Professor Vannier: Yeah he does a lot but in the other hand he owns a ton of Detroit and he refuses to do anything with it. Like right by the Detroit Medical Center is the biggest medical complex in the world and Page 4 �right in front is this abandoned building. You guy anywhere across the street from the biggest medical complex in the world how much is that property worth? Us: Oh for sure a lot. Professor Vannier: But you know in Detroit whoever happens to own that won’t sell it. It’s a creepy thing. Because typically what it is its called absently landlords. Whoever owns that lives in California, hasn’t been to Detroit in thirty years and refuses to sell it. It’s a tax write off. So yeah, it’s a huge problem in Detroit but it gets that perception where you see Detroit isn’t doing anything. No, people are trying but it’s owned. Finally they sold the Madison building. The owner of Quicken Loans bought it and he is going to turn it into a luxury hotel and apartments and all this different stuff. It’s going to look really nice. Some of those buildings look gorgeous because they are all built in the teens and that old gothic architecture. It looks straight out of a Batman film or something like that. Those gold plated elevators and all that. It’s going to look super neat. He’s going to redo it all and keep that old look. But it’s different. Tyler: Could you describe your experiences coming to Western Michigan? What was it like coming from Wayne State to Grand Valley? Professor Vannier: Coming from Wayne State to Grand Valley is really different. Grand Valley sees itself as a more liberal arts institution where as Wayne State is a research one. They are one of fifty universities that are research one. It’s a huge medical school, huge engineering school and all sorts of research goes on out there. But because nobody is moving out here is that in some of the departments, even the anthropology department you get high-powered anthropology professors. The number one grant getter in anthropology is there, one of the big journals Medical Anthropology Quarterly is published right out of Wayne State. But what you see because of that is hierarchy. Like at Wayne State, even in the Anthropology department, hierarchy. Where there’s people at the top and there’s people at the bottom and I would be a person at the bottom. As in teaching, you teach when you’re told, what you’re told and how you’re told. I come here and it’s all open. Meetings are run by consensus. The chair of the department is the first among equals and that’s all he is. And he sees it that way and everyone sees it that way. They even asked me for my first semester for next fall and the scheduler down the hall came to me and was like all right when do you want to teach? And I’m not used to that question. So I’m like when do you want me to teach? And she says when do you want to teach? And I’m not used to that question. I’m used to being told what classes to teach and when to teach. So it’s really neat because it’s just so much more open and they emphasize liberal arts so much and it’s so nice. At Wayne State I have to explain to students who want to be medical doctors why knowing just what ethnicity means makes a difference. Like why am I taking an anthropology class? This is not biology, this is not chemistry. This serves me no useful function whatsoever. And it’s just hard to deal with. Here everyone gets it, here its way more open here. At Wayne State there’s that different hierarchy where there is a lot of money. The guy that used to own Arbor Drugs and now became CBS sold his company for 4 billion dollars. He is building up Wayne States pharmacy school and it’s going to be the number one pharmacy in the Midwest. It’s going to be better than Ferris. Page 5 �But they got all money. Pharmacy won’t share that, physics won’t share that. Here wealth gets spread around which makes things work. Things are new. It’s just so different and so much nicer. So a lot more goes on at Wayne State but it’s worse in a way. They hire so much more nicer and better faculty here. And how all universities work it’s not up to them, it’s up to the dean. And the dean is looking at the big picture. Spencer: Yeah, here they are really big on student evaluations I know. Like they are huge on that. Professor Vannier: Oh yeah, U of M is the worse but Wayne State they don’t do anything. It doesn’t matter how good of a teacher you are, nobody cares. It’s what research have you done and what grants have you got. That’s everything. Spencer: Yeah that’s what I heard U of M is like too. Professor Vannier: At U of M you will have the worse teacher and you will wonder how is this person teaching class? It’s because they are probably a huge grant getter. They bring that money so you don’t have to. Here they emphasize that. How good of a teacher are you? Which puts me as a visiting professor in a funky position because if I have to leave and I want to go to U of M for example, U of M is going to look at my research where as here they emphasize your teaching. There are only so many hours of the day, what are you focusing on? It’s hard. You have to have a balancing act. Professor Vannier : I’ve got to keep doing research because that’s what other universities are going to look for. But Grand Valley looks for teaching experience. I m in a weird position, its hard. Spencer: I’m sure you looked at your evaluations, I m sure they were all good. Professor Vannier: Oh yea I m not too worried about it. Its ok I did pretty good. But still you need to maintain it because the better they are the better you look. Yeah but other universities they will look at your teaching like third or fourth thing they will look at, which seems kind of weird that they would look at your research, grants, publications, whatever you have done. So that’s why I have moved towards ethnographic films. Producing films. Spencer: Oh really? Page 6 �Professor Vannier : Yeah its whole anthropological thing its one of my, the big film company that does this stuff rejected us. Its one of those things specialist of Africa. Those that aren’t specialist of Africa hate it. Its one of those things its very African. Collective: Yeah Professor Vannier: African’s themselves love it. They think like… It was just screened in Paris by another professor and all these Africans in Paris from French Africa came and she said people were crying and it reminds them of their homeland. People see it here and its like, I don’t get it. You know what I mean? Because we did the film in such a way that it was so African… So we are submitting it to one Afrocentric film company and were working on another one. But that’s the way I differentiate myself…. So when I do have to enter the job market, if I do, I got something that separates myself. We will see what happens…. So yeah it’s really different, professors, students are just very different. Obviously the diversity thing is a little whacky… My classes at Wayne State were United Nations and teaching anthropology was fun, reading a book on Islamic culture essentially, and at Wayne State, 25% of my students would be from the Middle East, if not like 30 to 35% would be Muslims. Spencer: It’s not like that here at all. Professor Vannier: yeah, so these people would know more about that I would and they would talk about it, we would watch a film on India and 15% of my students would be Indian. And you could talk about it but these guys would know more than me. There( Wayne State) you’ve got every damn ethnic group, because you have the auto industry… What is it, they uh what is that little tiny suburb that lives inside Detroit, Hamtramck!.. Is the most diverse square two miles in all of America. There are 142 ethnic groups that live in that area. I have a friend that lives there, and you look at his house, and next-door is a Ukrainian family, next-door is a Bangladeshi family. It’s different. It’s just different. Wayne State is so diverse and here not so much. Tom: Yeah definitely not Professor Vannier: Here you got the Dutch. Spencer: Yeah it doesn’t get much worse. Page 7 �Prof: It is kind of, Vie heard of professors teaching in rural Minnesota, where it just kills them because it is just so damn white. Just rural Minnesotans. So here its not so bad… but it’s a little bit different. But on the west side of the state I keep telling myself I cannot wait for summertime. Because I moved here in like fall.. I got settled in, in October. Spencer: It’s nice here in the summer. Professor Vannier: Yeah that what everyone tells me because you got the beach etc. I want to do M 22, which I see, and I never saw stickers until I got here. I saw stickers on cars that said M22 and I actually had to look it up because I was like what the hell is m22. It’s the road that goes all around the peninsula. That going to be my big thing this summer I’m actually going to do it. But I was looking at this, have you ever seen anyone discriminated in public. Oh anybody else.. yeah not really. Spencer: Yeah she had a lot of different questions that she wanted us to ask, like um , a lot of them were really easy like segregation and stuff but I was like that’s a very select group that we would have to ask that to like do you remember being involved in segregation. Tyler: It was more for like those older people who some people might be interviewing, not your age. Professor Vannier : Segregation but even in Detroit. Its , I remember growing up , a black family moved into my neighborhood, and the older neighbors were pissed. Because they didn’t do anything, but they would grumble.. there goes a nigger.. and even as a kid I thought that was kind of mean and they were just a normal family living there you know, but yeah you saw all these little changes. But you see in Detroit, its still segregated, even in Berkeley there was one black guy on my street that I know of in the neighborhood, and around the corner there was one Latino family. And the only reason I knew they were Latino was because I heard them speaking Latin.. ha not Latin , Spanish. But that’s it , its pretty white. If you go to other areas its very black, if you go to Southfield and you get other areas, I lived near uh…. Its fun to look at, Dearborn is all the Arabs, Hazel Park and Oak Park is all orthodox Jews. And its fun driving through on Saturday because they are not allowed to drive on Saturday, and you see them all walking, so yeah that’s where all the orthodox Jews are. West Bloomfield, Rochester, Rochester hills is the Indian community, all live there . North Novi is where the Japanese community lives. Which is awesome. Yeah, north Novi, you know Novi I96 and Haggerty road. Spencer: Yeah Page 8 �Professor Vannier : well you go to like 15 mile and haggerty and all you see is these Japanese restaurants. One day I was eating in a Japanese restaurant that was connected to a Karaoke bar, and I said I’m going to go check it out, and I opened the door and it was all Japanese men in business suits. And they all stop and look at me. Haha and so I closed the door, and I know when I’m not wanted. Yeah but I was eating and it was funny, there was a bunch of Japanese men, and they brought out that sakei and were just getting plastered. It was just so funny to sit there and watch. They were just feeding them alcohol and all these guy were getting drunk, it was really funny. But, you see it and you see these different ethnic restaurants, its really cool. One thing I miss moving out to uh Grand Rapids is middle-eastern food. Where I was , every gas station had middle-eastern food and there were some really good places, but out here you just can’t get it. Spencer: No not at all. Prof: I miss it so much. That nice middle-eastern kabobs and stuff like that. Tom: It’s so good. Professor Vannier: Holy crap its like 3 bucks a sandwich. Yeah and so you just don’t have it so you miss that diversity but you still see that segregation. its black and white but its going downhill now. Its going downhill , its becoming more class segregation. Where, even then its getting hard to say because people are so mixed now, like in Detroit , your seeing gentrification like where the upper class starts moving into lower class neighborhoods because we are so seeing it. Because these like young white people are moving in, and young white professionals are moving in. And its becoming hip to live down there. If I wasn’t married when I was studying in the honors college, I would have moved down there, but my wife said no way. I would have. I realize as a woman it might be different you know especially at night. And Detroit is still Detroit and you got uh like in the suburbs if you need to go to CVS at midnight, you go to CVS at midnight, but in Detroit you need to be careful about that. But it’s interesting to see how it changes because you see these different neighborhoods. There was one house sold , there is neighborhood called the Boston Edison district, in the olden days it was where all the, like Henry Ford moved there. You know. Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: the dodge brothers lived there, just huge mansions, but it’s in the middle of its in north Detroit. So it’s a sketchy area. There was one house that was built in like 1920 and the garage had a carwash where you park your car, get out, go in your house , hit the button , and wash your car. The ballroom, the entire floor of the ballroom was built on springs so when you dance it makes you feel like Page 9 �you are floating. Fountains, through a system was connected through the entire house so you had all these rooms that had fountains that you just turn on a button. Guess how much it sold for? Spencer: I don’t know Prof: 250 grand. Tom: Ha I was going to say a couple mil Tyler: That’s crazy Professor Vannier : Oh I Know who you see buying these houses, usually now its more like black artist, like recording artist and some sports players have moved in. John sally it was the bishop of Detroit’s house, but John Sally from the pistons you know that old 90’s , he won the championship with the bad boys? He bought it and it just turned around, now I think one of the other pistons, Ben Wallace, I think Ben Wallace owns it now. Spencer: Does he really? Professor Vannier : yeah , its something like that , where you see its just like you have the black elite and the white elite lives in West Bloomfield, like Eminem lives in West Bloomfield. Grant Hill lives in Northville where I grew up. Where I grew up I started out as like a strong white-collar auto industry suburb, but middle management, but you could really see the economy, like who’s who in the auto industry, and where they live. It started out middle management, where if you went west of our house it was dirt roads. Now its so built up its like the elite of the auto industry. Ford and GM elite high ranking people. The neighborhood just went up and up and up. Oh but yeah you really see its based more on economy and who’s who and that’s kind of the suburb you live in. The blue-collar auto industry workers are out in Westland and Grand Rapids, not Grand Rapids, Garden City and Taylor. White collar is Northville and Novi, Birmingham. The Doctors and professionals typically live in Rochester and West Bloomfield. Yeah it’s all rally weird. And Grand Rapids, it’s no like that. Not like that at all. So its very different moving out here. Ah I don’t know how I got on that topic. But this kind of thing with discrimination, one thing, I don’t even want to say it because a lot of people disagree but I have had a lot of young male professors talk about it. Not in this department at all, here its very open, very nice, nobody cares. But anthropology as a total as a whole you to like these national meetings and stuff, and Anthropology has gone feminized. At these meetings maybe its 2 to 1 female to male. You’ll go to these talks and I will be the only guy. Its all women and it really hasn’t affected me but I’ve know other young Page 10 �men who I’ve talked to amongst the young male professors. Little bit of what’s called masonry has slipped in. Where you know misogyny is hating women, masonry it hating men. Where it has just become so feminized. But you see this little masonry, male hating, moving in. And its never been me because I have been careful about what I say. But it is hyper liberal, politically. To the point where its annoying me. Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: But if you start saying stuff that doesn’t fit that liberalism and liberalist, you get gunned down, I mean you can get gunned down hard. And you see a little bit of discrimination, I mean its pretty funny. When people talk about that in academics, but the counter argument is, you go to one of these conferences and everyone is a liberal, you go to a conference among hedge fund managers and they’re all conservative. You know what I mean. It’s the same damn thing it just depends what field you work in. But yeah there is , I can see discrimination against, politically discrimination against like more conservative to the point where you don’t even hear of conservative anthropologist. Spencer: No Professor Vannier: very pro-capitalist anthropologist is kind of a no, no. you know what I mean? And its really weird, really different. I was at this one talk, where it was on Haiti, that’s why I was there. And this one woman was talking about how, she wasn’t saying it but it was exactly what she was talking about. These people, she was working in urban Haiti and under Duvalier the totalitarian dictator, there was a political hierarchy. And if you were like a poor person working and you needed something done and you would go to one of duvale’s lower ranking military guys and you would talk to him and you would try to get this done. If he was going to help you he would go to the next higher up, which would go to the next higher up in the chain. And they would eventually get it done if they decided to do that. Now there’s no Duvalier, it’s a perfect free democracy so there is none of that. So if you need something done what do you do? You don’t get it done and that’s the end of it. So these people are bitching like we want our dictator back. We could get things done with the dictator. And this lady was saying this at this conference, and holy crap, people were pissed. I didn’t raise my hand or say anything. After the talk I went up to her and talked to her and said I know exactly what you are talking about. But when I was there violence was bad. Well the guy that changed my money, right when I left, someone else came up and said give me all your money and just boom hit him right in the head. That never would have happened under Duvalier. Under the high point of Duvalier in like the 60s there was no crime and no crime is everywhere. if you walk down the street you can get shot. If you go walking down the street you can get kidnapped. And people would talk about under Duvalier that you follow the rules. Follow the rules and you have a perfectly peaceful happy life. Now we have all these civil rights and freedoms and you can’t even walk down the street. But still the point is that the women at the conference started saying that and it didn’t fit in that liberal you know and it was really rough. It was pretty funny. Yeah but being a young man a young male conservative in anthropology. Like I said not at the department level not here. Page 11 �Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: but you know these big conferences that engage the discipline, those people are for real. And even anthropology there are people studying around the world. I don’t know the exact figures what percentage at these big conferences is white people but its probably like 80 percent maybe 85 percent. So you have all these white people still talking about the poor black Africans. You know what I mean. And there’s something weird about that but anthropology knows that and we recognize it but don’t do anything about it. So its different, its been really different. And I think a lot of it comes from me growing up in Detroit where you got a lot of different ethnic families. Growing up in Detroit I think that influenced me heavily. you also have the strong class antagonisms. Where you got the union working shop people versus the might collar management people you know what I mean? And you got these strong notions, my grandfather till the day he died only went to full service gas stations Tyler: Really? Professor Vannier: Yeah because it gives a man a job that how he referred to it, it gives a man a job. You know you’re influenced by that and now its just different. Yeah but moving out here I expected it to be super conservative but its really not that I’ve seen. People say, well maybe I’m not in the right place but like Holland and Zeeland. Tom: Yeah my roommate is form Zeeland he says its like the most conservative place he has ever been. Professor Vannier: Yeah I think its like the most conservative place in Zeeland. I think McDonalds just won the right to open on Sunday like six years ago. I know because of that strong church . but yeah I haven’t really seen it, Grand Rapids has been good but I think Grand Rapids has changed with the healthcare industry. But you still see the conservatives like the Devos’s are very conservative. They give a lot of money to conservative causes. Yeah I just haven’t noticed it around here at all. But civil rights, yeah I don’t really knows how it works in Grand Rapids and Grand valley is so different because it’s no universe. Like at Wayne State you get MLK day off. It’s a big holiday there’s speeches and parades, it’s a big deal because its got that deep history in Detroit for being that end of the line for the Underground Railroad. It’s a big deal, but here not so much. There’s just not that history here you know what I mean? Tom: Yeah. Page 12 �Professor Vannier: There no connection to it. And its very recent people start moving out here but with Detroit they have had people coming in since the 1700s you know different groups and waves and migrants. That how the Arab Americans got here you know we were known for our Arab Americans running the gas stations. In Seattle it’s the Vietnamese in New York I think it’s the Indians. I don’t know. Somebody broke it down to me why that is but I don’t remember what they said, but they were distinct reasons for that. Anyways what else do you want to know? I just rambled on and on off topic. Especially since its being recorded. Spencer: No its all-good stuff, she just. We told we wanted to interview you, you know something that was moving from Detroit you know coming here but um, she wanted someone who knew the history of Grand Rapids and I’m like well that kind of hard because there are so few people that really know the history of grand rapids. Tom: Especially since you just moved here you obviously don’t have a lot of knowledge on that. Professor Vannier: Yeah I know people tell like 15 years ago it was a hellhole that’s what people have told me, but that a shock to me because in Detroit we always think Grand Rapids is a sunny and beautiful city. And I was shocked because I never knew that. I was when I came here and people said “oh god 15 years ago this place was horrible” just like people say you can’t move south of Wealthy. These different neighborhoods you don’t go to, and don’t move to. Because I didn’t know where I was going I mean I needed to find somewhere. I stuck with what they told me like north of wealthy south of 196 east of downtown and they told these specific spots you know. Like that where you want to live and don’t go anywhere else. I started checking around other areas and boy there are some rough areas out there in Grand Rapids. Some rough areas. Tyler: Yeah once you pass this one spot in downtown Grand Rapids its just straight do not go there. Professor Vannier: Yeah, over the river and south I was going through this neighborhood to look at this house we might buy and I turned around. Because it was like hills have eyes because these people were just sitting on porches giving you the look. Like outsider you are not welcome down this street. I was just like okay ill turn around I’m out of here. But yeah I don’t know how different it is in Allendale because you just have students out here. Tyler: Yeah pretty much just straight suburb. Page 13 �Professor Vannier: Yeah I was too wary like what if I rented out a house in the middle of a student neighborhood that would be kind of weird. To see my students in the morning. We could all commute together. But yeah definitely not a good idea. This kids having a huge house party next door and he invites me over, ha no I don’t think that’s really a good idea. So I live more mid town now, that’s where I found my house. We are in walking distance of downtown, its kind of nice. Right by Martha’s Vineyard. When I first moved here everyone was like Martha’s Vineyard, and it’s a party store. I was like what’s the big deal? You know there not many grocery stores where I live. It’s a different spot , Grand Rapids is very different from Detroit . Very, very different from Detroit. In Detroit anywhere is, like everything is near you but everything is far away. Takes you half an hour to get anywhere because Detroit is so huge. Here you know everything is so close together because you are right here. You know what I mean? It just a smaller city. Professor Vannier: Buts it’s nice I can’t wait for summer time; see how it works. Are there any books, articles, films, speeches, newspapers, performances that influence your thinking about race and ethnicity? Spencer: Yeah that was the question from her. Professor Vannier: Yeah in Detroit. The only thing I can tell you, what happened, when was this it? About two years ago, it really gave me such pride in the city of Detroit. Basically, you know the big thing with the Muslim community and in Detroit that’s not a big deal. No body cares in Detroit if you’re Muslim nobody cares, nobody cares, Orthodox Jew, nobody cares, you know, black white, nobody cares. As long as your working you know it’s more of a class thing you know its, nobody cares. Elsewhere in America people really care about this stuff. That woman running for senate in Nevada, we have to stop Dearborn. And all of Dearborn looked up and was like what the hell did we do? Where we come from? She was worried about Sharia Law being implemented in Dearborn so the Mayor of Dearborn, Jock O’ Riley this Irish guy, I don’t think Sharia laws going on hear lady you have to figure out. But, we always get these groups coming up here from, outsiders, coming up to Detroit and trying to cause trouble. And this one group, like that guy from Florida, you’ve ever seen that pastor with the big bushy mustache? He’s always up in Detroit, we hate so much. Because the attitude of, we can kill each other, that’s fine, no outsiders. You can’t come here and cause trouble because then we all ban together, against the outsiders. Everybody hates that pastor, you’re not going to change and he’s going to whip up the people of Detroit you know to realize that Sharia, no, no your not. We hate you. Professor Vannier: But, this one group, it was like two years ago. I m thinking of an incident that made me think about ethnicity and race and how it works in Detroit. Because of the cars, were more based on class than anything else and where you are in the industry. Blue collar, white, middle management, upper white collar. That’s more important. But, um there’s this group from Tennessee, they’re going to come up here, you know southern Tennessee, they’re going to protest Sharia law and the Muslims and shit like Page 14 �that. Um they came up, it was about two years ago, and it was on the news. They came up here and they were going to set up, they had hotels for three weeks. The first morning they were going to protest a mosque, you know and you know what their thinking, there going to intimidate you know little Muslim kids and Muslim women. But, they didn’t realize, when they got here, was that mosque, that they were going to protest at five in the morning, because the call to prayer, five in the morning, was next door to the mosque founded by, Louis Fericon, Black Muslims, who are a completely different group of people than Arab Muslims. So you had this, you know Black Muslim, you know Malcolm X, Black Muslim, its still a, the first mosque ever and that group of people I knew one of them, I knew a Black Muslim who was an archeologist and she was super cool. Her name was Allison, but um her Black Muslim name was Sultana X because they’re all X. You can just see how it works, you know Malcolm X, she was Sultana X. You give your name an X because your not taking your slave masters name, you this strong thing. The Mosque that they were protesting, you know all these white people from Tennessee show up at five in the morning while all these little Arab kids trying to get into this mosque and next door was the Black Muslim mosque. Do you think that, O my goodness, it was awesome, that these just huge, huge black dudes just come pouring out of there. Know that there was no violence, but they just got all up in their face. I remember distinctly this black Muslim woman where this one Tennessee guy like aren’t you concerned about Sharia law, right in front of one of the huge black dudes, I m going to Sharia law up your ass if you don’t get out of here. They were suppose to be here for three weeks, they lasted forty-five minutes. They went running back with their tails between their legs. And I was so happy with Detroit, do they give a crap that you are Arab and that they were black, no. And it was, it was in Hamtramck, so diverse. Where you got this Ukrainian family that was furious cause they were woken up over the whole thing at five in the morning you know I don’t know who these people are from Tennessee, go away. But it just yeah that race, that ethnicity really just didn’t matter when outsiders are involved. It matters inside where you get trouble, but it doesn’t matter outside. When outsiders come in, we all ban together, were like go away, we don’t want you here we can kill each other. Professor Vannier: Well know that I m thinking about it, I learned this while I was at Wayne State. In like the Arab-American community, ethnicity matters, there’s a hierocracy of ethnicity. I know Yeminis’ are at the bottom and their considered kind of poor backwards. In Detroit they’re considered the white trash, if I may, of the Arab community. Where you got the, there’s no Saudi, but you got the Lebanese, the Iraqi Chaldeans a more at the top, followed by the Jordanians, then the Syrians. We don’t have a lot of Iranians I don’t know how exactly it breaks down, but you have a lot of Lebanese. I knew a lot of Lebanese they’d tell me, yeah were at the bottom, and I was like how does that work. I never knew that. You know in America we like lump them all together, where they see themselves as very, very low. That ethnicity really, really matters. I go, God that’s weird, but if one of them came out here you know you wouldn’t look at them as Lebanese, their Arab-American. You know, no one would care, they belong in that big group where they get along where there’s that strong ethnic rankings, ethnic rankings. I bet if you’re from Africa it would be the same way. Where you are form Africa would matter in that population, you know what I mean. We’re all looking at them like, their African you know, but to them it’s a big deal. So it’s different, very different in Detroit. Page 15 �Professor Vannier: Detroit’s got really different race relations than other places in uh in America. It’s all the auto industry, and the factories and everyone coming over here to work in the auto industry. It’s all the auto industry. It’s more class based. Out here I don’t know how it works. Professor Vannier: I don’t know how Grand Rapids does it. I think it’s too new, like the health care industries too new. I know since I’ve been here they’ve opened up Davenport University, opened up downtown, Buffalo Wild Wings opens up this Friday, like holy crap. The Grand Rapids art fair or that art prize is a huge event. I’ve never been, being in Detroit we hear all about it you know you got to go to the art prize, what’s going on at the art prize, you got to go to the art prize, what’s going on at the art prize, you know what I mean cause it’s a huge event. And everybody’s so like you’re so lucky to move to some place like Grand Rapids, I thought God it must be a beautiful place. And I got here, a guy kills lots of people you know, its like O my God are you serious. And it was a joke when we were looking around for house, my wife and I were like were not aloud to go south of wealthy, lets go check it out. We went like two blocks in, and at one corner there was three cop cars. Maybe we shouldn’t be here and forever its burned in my mind, like don’t go south of wealthy. So it’s so weird, so weird, and just very different. Professor Vannier: Where you can go like a mile and it changes, where in Detroit you can go miles and miles and miles and it won’t change. Just suburbs’ as far as the eye can see, you know just single-family homes as far as the eye can see. It’s just suburban America, metro Detroit. But, it’s different because the auto industry, Oakland county, it was before the recession, Oakland county was the third richest county in America, behind Orange, the OC, and uh a county in Connecticut where all the hyper rich New Yorkers’ live. Boom, boom, Oakland County, and it is how we support four sports teams. You know what I mean. Where other cities can’t, we can because we have so much money. The suburbs have all the money, you know what I mean and they can support four different teams in four different buildings, the only city to do that. Four winning teams, think about it. Or if the pistons got good, where we got the Red Wings, the Tigers could go for it all this year, the Lions are starting to emerge, and we support all four teams. How do you do that? Not in New York doesn’t do that, LA has what, they don’t have football, two basketball teams, two baseball teams. And yeah we sell out our games. And its really weird, people, people don’t consider that when they look at Detroit, people don’t consider that. And its all that wealth created by the auto industry. That’s why Mitt Romney’s screwed, people are still pissed and he’s trying to twist the message, good luck dude, good luck. There still pissed at him over that. But, yeah I don’t know the history of Grand Rapids enough to know how it works. Spencer: Yeah I think that’s fine because we told her we wanted to get your side from Detroit and kind of a little bit, we knew that it wasn’t going to be like, you know how she wanted it, but she said that’s fine. Professor Vannier: You know you can always look up Grand Rapids yourself, too. But, yeah you know Detroit its all the auto industry, all the auto industry. I don’t know if I m going to get into it, but how the ghetto was created in Detroit. How Detroit became that, the way that the inner city, hard core, super big black populations. Were the blackest city in America, it’s changing, slowly, but we are. And you know Page 16 �it’s everyone coming to work in the auto industry, but you know by the time they got here the auto industry had already left. So they go down to the suburbs. There’s no jobs, no nothing, auto industry went to the suburbs because there’s more land available to build factories. All the people already working in the auto industry followed, the people coming in, were stuck. And that’s boom, where you get like that inner city poverty. And know it’s all moving back in, all coming back in. Led by again Mike Ilitch, Quicken Loans guy, Dan Gilbert that’s his name, is leading the charge. Yeah all moving back into the city, because all the suburbs are all too built up, too expensive now. It’s like a life cycle, you know it’s like a city life cycle. See the suburbs will be bad, probably within twenty years and the city will be where it’s at. Yeah so it’s all based on that and those race relations, you know where you sit in that hierarchy of the factory and stuff like that. It’s different, very, very different look. But how it’s going to change in Grand Rapids, I have no idea. Spencer: Well uh I think that’s good. Professor Vannier: Is that good? Tyler: Yeah. Professor Vannier: Did I say enough? Spencer: If we come up with anything else we’ll let you know. But, yeah I think that’s definitely good. Professor Vannier: Yeah if you come up with any other questions let me know. I love talking about this stuff. I taught a class on it. That’s why I know so much about it. I know enough there and it just drives me nuts when people just hate on Detroit. And it’s just like do you realize we invented the middle class. We invented unions, we invented all of that. First, stop light, first paved roads. You know first sold foundation, black middle class was in Detroit. All so much came out of Detroit that people just don’t recognize. I mean it all started here. And you see so many people from Detroit, Malcolm X, Madonna, The White Stripes have moved back. Who just moved in that they were talking about on the news, you ever heard of the band Flocking Molly? Why the hell they came to Detroit I have no idea, but the two main members just moved into Detroit. Moved into those neighborhoods, they moved into Palmer Woods, which is a different area. But, those super hyper rich houses in the middle of kind of a bad area, they just moved there. Why, have no idea, but that’s where they live know. I think its because theirs such an emerging uh artist community in Detroit. Where you got artist film makers know, you got all sorts of stuff going on and its all underground. Super underground, but it’ll emerge, it’ll emerge, where know you got like big, like right now the Detroit Fashion Show. It’s not very big, but a lot of fashion designers are starting to get involved because they’re seeing in like ten years Detroit Fashion Show might be where it’s Page 17 �at. So you see that like people are trying to get in now, you know what I mean. Cause they just see, New York will always be king, always be king, but Detroit’s going to matter in a little bit. We got all these different things happening. So it’s cool. You should go there sometime. Check out the different restaurants. Tom: Yeah I mean I’ve been to Detroit a few times, several times, but sporting events mostly. Professor Vannier: Yeah and it’s weird amongst the older generations you still see the segregation were uh you see uh people that were born and raised two miles from the city have never stepped foot in it because its just an evil awful place, you know what I mean. You got though, because you know we still were one of the most racially segregated places and we went through a lot of battles and how to you know keeping people out from moving into the suburbs. But, know it’s much, much less now. But, those older generations still see it, still just hate Detroit, you know you grew up in like Royal Oak, you know what I mean, you live three miles from the city even though will never come back, never ever, ever go back because they see it’s that culture of terror. Your going to get shot the second you step foot, no your not, there’s nobody there. You know not enough people to shoot you. So yeah you still see it, so still I don’t want to make it sound like it’s all class based theirs still a lot of racism, but it’s usually mostly older generations. Amongst the younger generations that grew up there go to Detroit all the time. That’s who is moving in. Yeah so you see it changing amongst generations, but interesting stuff. You can check it out. Tom: Like I’ve been to like uh, Greek town I have dinner there, go to a Red Wings game and then. Professor Vannier: Go to Slows Barbeque down Michigan Avenue. Best restaurant in all of Detroit. Best restaurant there. They just opened another one by Wayne State. Right now its mid town is really happening now where Mo cat is, the DIA is there, Wayne State’s there, because they just built dorms for the first time. So now you got students living there and once you have students living there businesses are going to follow. And they are, your starting to see bars opening up you know. More stuff just geared towards like young twenty something people. Starting to open up and what’s that going to cause. More twenty something’s to move in there, which cause what, more businesses to start and that’s where the whole thing goes. Whole thing heads that direction, you’re seeing it starting to go that direction. Yeah I wonder where they’re going to build the new Joe Louis Arena? They still won’t say and it just might be rumors. Either across from hockey town that’s why he owns those buildings, tear them down, build the new Joe Louis Arena there or where Tiger Stadium used to stand. Tom: The thing is I love where Joe Louis is right now right on the river there. I think it’s awesome. Page 18 �Professor Vannier: Yeah, yeah it makes perfect sense for him. It doesn’t make sense for Detroit cause that river front property is solid property. You could build condos there, overlooking the river. Restaurants and bars overlooking the river, that money, right now we got this stadium sitting right there, you know what I mean. It makes perfect sense for Mike, doesn’t make sense for the city. And what, what he probably will do, he’s not saying I imagine he will do it himself. Where he’ll move Joe Louis somewhere else, tear down the original Joe Louis Arena and build his own, high rise condos, you know what I mean. He’ll make a fortune, he’ll make a fortune off of that and it’s good for him, I mean it’ll be good for Detroit too good for him. But, I know a lot of people that live in Detroit that hate Mike Ilitch, hate Mike Ilitch. But, the big evil guys mad in the room, he owns the bridge, too. He’s the antichrist of Detroit, people hate his guts, owns the train station won’t do anything with it. We threatened him with eminent domain so he said he’s going to fix it up so he took like one side of it and fixed the windows. I fixed it up. There you go. That’s the game we play with Mattie. He lives in Texas, multi-billionaire, lives in Texas. Evil, evil, person and he’s blocking the bridge, the new bridge. Rick Snyder wants the new bridge, all the auto companies want the new bridge, what seems to be the problem here you know. Nope, nope, but O well its good stuff. If you got anymore questions just email me or stop in. END OF INTERVIEW Page 19 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2a1f2341cf08036b1f4efb4f666bd326.mp3 43c028502c40c77ee9b41e3399f2b211 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Vannier_Christian Title A name given to the resource Christian Vannier audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vannier, Christian Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Spencer Tom Description An account of the resource Christian Vannier discusses the civil rights differences between western and eastern Michigan. In particular, he draws on his experiences at Wayne State University and Grand Valley State University. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fae970e8fd5f11c8d151c77c3e7c7d7a.pdf 3c777a99a839530b241ef1d468f7ab53 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Kristine Skippergosh Interviewers: Alyssa Rogers, Cailie Johnson, Stephanie Johnson and Lyndsay Rhenshaw Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/2/2012 Runtime: 01:04:51 Biography and Description Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties she faced regarding race in her early years. Transcript (Talking at beginning of interview between Kristy and interviewer) Kristy: We could always do it on my computer...I don’t know how...I have a mac and it has like the recorder program Interviewer: Oh right Interviewer: See but it’s got like the time thing... Kristy: But I don’t know how work it (laughing). Interviewer: I think we’ll just give this a go. I appreciate it though. So are we gonna get started here? Alright, well my name is Cailie Johnson. I am here today with Kristy...uh Skippergosh (laughing). Yes, uh... we’re here to talk about your experiences with civil rights in western Michigan. So, if you don’t mind we’re just gonna start broad, you know, what was your childhood like? Kristy: Umm, well I grew up in Grand Rapids. Umm I have 3 brothers, two older and one younger...grew up with both my parents. Umm, not too exciting I guess (laughing). Interviewer: Noooo? (laughing) Are there any like childhood memories, you would say, that you think fondly of? Kristy: Umm, I definitely love to play outside as a child. I was big into playing in the dirt and...wrestling around with my brothers outside (laughing). I was always hanging out with the boys, and doing that kind of stuff so... Interviewer: Alright, very good, if you don’t mind we are just going to jump right into, umm was there a particular moment either growing up or you know in your adulthood that you felt different or that you were treated different? If you don’t mind talking about you know who your Page 1 �identity, and that kind of thing. Kristy: Yep, umm...I think actually the biggest moment and I remember it so specifically was when I was in third grade, we were like learning about culture and like different ethnicities and things like that, and we had this big like, I guess it was throughout the entire third grade, a big project, where we had to choose our primary, umm...I guess...ethnicity or like orientation. And we would get a picture of someone like traditionally dressed from that country or wherever it was and you had to like decorate it and they were all hung in the hall. Well, I was the only Native American...out of all of the kids. I mean there were was three third grade classes of like almost 30 kids each so like probably around 90 kids and I was the only one that was like, I never really...thought about it before. Like I knew I was somewhat different but...I didn’t realize I was completely different from everyone else and it was kind of like a big deal I guess...so. Interviewer: How would you describe like the neighborhood where you grew up? You know like was there a lot of diversity? You said you were the only one in your class... Kristy: Umm...I would say it was primarily white, I mean a few, like a few Mexicans, or Hispanic families lived in the neighborhood and a couple of black families, but...as far as I know we were the only Native American family, so... Interviewer: Now did your parents bring you up in the traditions of Native Americans? Kristy: Umm...My dad like he doesn’t know a ton, but like what he knows we always talked about and he’s explained a lot of different things to me. Umm...he’s actually 100% Native American, my mom’s not at all. Umm...so like there have been little things we’ve always gone to powwows all my life. So that was always a big thing like in the summer, going to powwows and stuff like that...so Interviewer: Can you describe those powwows a little bit more? Kristy: Uh yea. Umm...it’s just kind of like a big gathering, umm anyone’s welcome. They have 2 here in Grand Rapids I believe. There is one the spring and one in the fall. Umm...and there’s like a big circle in the middle where there’s traditional dancing and traditional tribal music. Umm...and like it’s kind of...a cliché thing that people say, but they actually do it, they dance to the beat of the drum, Umm that’s like a big tradition and then set up all around it are...a bunch of like...I always call them trading stations, there are like people like make a bunch of homemade stuff and you just walk around to each of the little stands and you can buy whatever they’re selling so. There’s jewelry, and like picture frames, and shirts and all sorts of stuff so... Interviewer: Ok, now did your dad encourage you to learn more about your heritage would you say? Was he, you know, was he willing to teach you, that kind of thing, like share stories? Kristy: Umm...yea he’s always I guess...his stories aren’t exactly the happiest. But like he’s always told me stories about like of growing up. He grew up in northern Michigan umm...on tribal land. So...he’s always been more than willing to talk about that. Umm...like I said, we don’t practice too many traditions really...umm...like very few things, like at funerals, there are minor things that we do different or like on top of a regular funeral and at weddings, but that’s about it. Interviewer: Ok, are there a couple stories that stuck out to you that your dad’s told you over the years? Page 2 �Kristy: Umm...well I guess it was like a big part of his life when he was...either 8 or 9 years old, around then. Umm he’s one of the youngest of seven kids. Umm his mom died, and...she was in a car accident and ended up drowning in the lake. Umm all of the kids who were younger were put in foster care. And my oldest aunt at the time was I believe 20 and umm...the government had said that my dad, or my grandpa was unfit to take care of the kids by himself because he wouldn’t be able to provide enough income to feed them. But my grandma didn’t have a job, which was kind of interesting, so she never worked, so he was always the sole provider. Umm...and my aunt also offered to take care of the younger kids...and they said that that wasn’t allowed. So the ones who were young enough were put in foster care and the other ones were allowed to...go on their own...so Interviewer: Wow...now do you think there was any kind of discrimination in there at all? Kristy: Umm...yea definitely...umm.. at that time...it was in...the early 60’s. Umm...there were a lot of like civil rights movements with Native Americans all over the country. And...that was when our tribal police department was first like...making its stand I guess, up there, and they were making their post and...umm... tribal police are not under the jurisdiction of any other government officials. Umm...they have all say when it comes to tribal members...umm... so if you’re, if you’re a tribal member and you’re pulled over up there you can demand tribal police and...the state cops or whoever it is can do nothing more. So...no matter what the, unless it’s a felony that is committed, the tribal police have all the say...so.. Interviewer: Wow Kristy: Um huh, so that was kind of a really big deal, and there were a lot of...people mad about it I guess...so Interviewer: So what happened to your dad after this whole you know, rearrangement? Kristy: Umm...he was in foster care until he was 13...umm...all of the kids are about 2 years apart...so there’s one younger than him and then one older than him and they were for the most part together...all of the time. Umm...I believe at first they were split up for a while...until they could find a family that would take all three, but I guess it was hard to, which I believe it is still hard to find families who will take multiple children. Umm...most of the families that he stayed with were, umm on farms, and they had to do a lot of like the farm work and stuff, so that was always their chores and they couldn’t do anything until that was done and...things like that so... Interviewer: Right so did he eventually get placed into a permanent... Kristy: Umm...once he was 13 he was able to go back to live with my grandpa so, I’m not sure how long they stayed at the other homes. It, so it seems they kind of bounced around a lot so. Interviewer: Ok, and then he spent the rest of his...13 on up on the reservation right? Kristy: Yep, well it’s tribal land, it’s not actually the reservation...but um he grew up in Charlevoix and most of the land up there is tribal land so... Interviewer: Alright...now we’ll kind of get a little bit broader for a second and then maybe get a little more narrow, but how would you say, you know with hearing some of the stories from your father, and thinking about you know nowadays, how would you say Native American treatment has changed? You know when you hear your dad’s stories and when you think about how you grew up. Page 3 �Kristy: Umm...I think it’s definitely much different, I think it’s much more accepted. Umm...I’ve really never run into major problems. Umm...like my dad’s talked about, like, the problems have followed him all the way through school and high school. There were only allowed to be 2 Native Americans on the like sports team at a time. And he talked about there was one time, I believe it was his junior or senior year in high school there was a 3rd kid on the varsity basketball team and...the three of them were sat down and told one of them had to leave...because it wasn’t allowed. Umm..so I mean I never really experienced...anything significant...umm...I think more people seem, I guess, excited about it. Like I, all the time, people tell me they’ve never met anyone who is Native American before so...umm... I also...freshman year here...I had kind of an...I would say it was enlightening. I met an international student from Spain...and...in Spain they’re taught that Native Americans no longer exist...they were all killed off in the wars. And he did not believe that I was Native American, like it couldn’t be possible, they don’t exist anymore...It was kind of a frustrating situation to try to explain to him that I was Native American and he was very adamant about it, that it was absolutely was not possible, there is no way. And so that was...kind of interesting. I mean I had no idea but, umm as far as I know most European countries teach students that all of the Native Americans died off in the wars...so... Interviewer: That’s crazy. Kind of going off that like, has there been times, you know, we’re learning in class about the whole pilgrim thing, you know Kristy: Um hum Interviewer: Like the disparities and what actually happened and what we’re taught. Kristy: Um hum Interviewer: Did you grow up, you know, hearing about this Thanksgiving, and going home and having you know, your father go “what”? Kristy: Actually, see my dad’s never really like corrected any of that. I mean we do a, you know traditional Thanksgiving dinner like everyone else you know, tons of food and stuff. And I actually did not learn until I was in college what the real Thanksgiving was like. And I was, I was kind of shocked and...I almost thought like...I feel like it’s kinda funny that my dad still like...he loves Thanksgiving...he looks forward to it every year (laughing). It’s just, it seems kind of ironic...I mean I’m sure he must know...what happened...but...I don’t know it just...it seems so weird to me that like we would still celebrate it. I mean all of our, every now and then the entire family will get together, as many people as we can and...we all love it so (laughing)...why not? Interviewer: Right...I know we’re talking about Thanksgiving and you said some funerals are different...are there any other customs that you can think about that your family has celebrated differently then maybe we may have? Kristy: Umm.......not in particular. Umm...I think a lot like with like...I guess the ceremonies, like funerals and weddings. It may be a little bit different for my family specifically. One of my uncles is a, umm he was a pastor at a Native American church. So he knows a lot of like the prayers and stuff, in our native language. So we do, like we...say those. I’m, I don’t, I guess he says them. Umm...he’ll go through like different...speech type things in the native language at both. Umm...and at funerals...umm...I guess it depends on the time of year...umm....but we will Page 4 �have, you burn a fire for three days...like a, like a bonfire type of thing, and it has to burn for three days straight, and someone always has to be there watching it and it’s supposed to be like the family elders. Umm...and then on the final day you have a family meal together... and the first plate prepared is for the person who died. And everyone eats, and then the plate for the person who died goes in the fire, and then the fire is...put out with water...so Interviewer: That is really interesting Kristy: Mm hmm Interviewer: That is...So how would you um you know has your growing older learning more about your heritage how would you say you developed kind of take us from you said you were in 3rd grade your finding out you native America to today when your finding out the real thanksgiving you know kind of that transition? Kristy: Yea um I defiantly like I feel like I was very sheltered from the real situations that had happened um I guess I didn’t realize it was as hard for as many people as it was like I had always known that it was like difficult growing up as a native American you know before and like now the more I learn about it the more I almost like feel bad that I hadn’t known before like I just thought everything was fine and not that big of a deal and um like known I’ve learned about a lot of the reservations especially out west there are some of them that are like 80 to 90 percent unemployed. And um Indians reservations are considered um there own nation so the federal government can only intervene when there ids a felony committed so they don’t have to provide assistance to people they don’t have to provide food stamps or welfare or anything g like that at all they don’t have to provide schools they don’t have to provide anything so it defiantly the more I learn the more I think of it differently Interview: So going back to kind off your dads family dynamic and where you come from now you said the siblings were scattered what’s that like now were they able to kind of you know come back together? Kristy: Um yes and no um a couple of the older ones actually they went first to Chicago and one stayed in Chicago and the two other ones went to Arizona and um one of my uncles who was in Chicago he passed away about 4 years ago now and before that I believe it was close to 20 years before they had…. um all taken a picture together and that’s the last time they had all been together, all 7 of them. Otherwise like they had seen each other periodically and sometimes like 4 or 5 would be together but never all 7. So I mean they keep in touch they talk a lot, my dad’s really close to, um the ones who are still in Michigan, especially um my uncle and aunt who he was in the foster homes with. And then one of, it’s my oldest uncle, he actually stayed up north when the younger ones were put in foster care to make sure that they were okay so and after I believe it was once my dad was in high school then he went into the navy but like he made sure to stick around to make sure everything was okay and he still kind of makes sure everyone everywhere is okay so. Interviewer: Sounds like there is a real sense of like family. Kristy: Mmmhm Interviewer: Do you get that form Native American culture? Kristy: Yea. Yes. Definitely. Yup, I mean there’s still like in our family and there are a few Page 5 �people who keep their distance but we have a very large family. Interviewer: All right well if we kind of go broad again um talking about a big question I had was about media in the society. You know growing up in the age we have how do you feel like the Native American cultures been portrayed good bad that kind of thing? Kristy: Umm I guess I’ve I haven’t seen too much in the media but I think a lot of like there are some people that I've run into who do see it like see a lot of bad things. Like I’ve had negative comments about like the whole casino thing and like all the money that you lose go back to our pockets and a few people have made like rude comments about it. But um and then like there still like with the whole affirmative action type of thing and like even with that being gone um do to like the treaties that were signed whenever they were signed the government still has to pay for our school and nothing can like break that. So I feel like some people have resentment towards it like I have run into people who have made like they just mean things about it I guess but I guess I don’t really care.(Laughing) Interviewer: Right Kristy: So um but yea otherwise like I don’t really see too much in the media um maybe the biggest thing is often which it’s not exactly untrue but Native Americans are seen as like having alcoholism and like problems with alcohol but the statistics do show that it is true .I mean so, its I guess ,it’s just difficult that that’s all that’s ever shown and like unemployment and stuff like that so but I mean I feel like it’s no different than any other society with poverty. Interviewer: Now have you or maybe your dad um connected I guess like with a community you know advocate anything you know that kind of is he a part of any groups would you say? Kristy: Not really um but he’s definitely willing to stand up for himself. Like he does not take anything um about 10 years ago he sued the city of Wyoming for a civil rights lawsuit um he was and I don’t know all of the details but he was discriminated against and he um got a lawyer and a civil rights has to be approved by the state in order for it to go to court and it was approved and he won so I mean he’s just he won't take it from anyone at all um I know in school he had a hard time also like with the whole sports team thing um teachers would tell them that they would fail them in order to keep them off the sports teams and my dad played varsity basketball , football all 4 years of high school was all state all four years of high school in track um he also played baseball he played I believe he played baseball at the trade school he went to um he like he was recruited to tons of schools he was actually recruited to Harvard to play basketball after college but he didn’t want to wear a suit and ties the rest of his life so hahahah so he didn’t go um like that’s his only reasoning I guess. Interviewer: Will go with um has anyone in your life um encouraged you your dad other relatives to learn more about it? Kristy: Um my dad does in kind of subtle ways um in Northern Michigan the community college up there I'm not exactly sure what it’s called they offer language classes and my dad’s kind of like wanted me to go take them and um I believe they have 5 classes for it and um he also like he’s talked about um me working for the tribe after college because we have like there are medical staff they have like everything that I mean we have dentists and doctors and psychologists and all sorts of things and he would love for me to go up there and work for them Page 6 �but I don’t really know if that’s the place for me so um well like its mostly in subtle ways um I’ve had a few professors also like encourage me to learn more and like I kind of think it’s more of them being interested and wanting to know like through me but um yea that’s it that’s about it one of my brothers he at one point started learning some of the language quite a few years ago and wanted me to also learn it but it’s very difficult to learn especially on your own so I never really got into it I kind of wish I had but hmmmhm. Interviewer: What would you say it was like growing up you know with your dad you said being 100% Native American and what’s your mom’s nationality? Kristy: Um I believe she’s German and French. Interviewer: Oh okay so how’d they combine that I guess and raise a family? Kristy: Um I guess it wasn’t too difficult um I think the biggest problem my family had was with religion um my dad originally like before the foster homes was brought up catholic and stock with that and my mom was raised Baptist and they're very different and they could not agree at all um but otherwise I mean I would say it was very similar to anyone else I think (Laughing). Interviewer: So back to the professor you were talking about professors do you ever get this sense like you said kind of wanted information through you? Has there ever been that kind of thing were okay they need a question answered about Native Americans so hey they pick you out, have you ever felt like that? Kristy: Yes kind of um I've it’s more of like hinting at maybe I should talk to my dad about something or they would love to know what my dad thinks about something or they would love to know how my family would you know dealt with something. I mean I don’t I don’t find it offensive at all I mean most the time I haven’t thought of the question myself and then become interested in knowing but um often though I guess the professors who want to know things also usually more than I do in other aspects of it like of the culture so it’s kind of like it more personal questions rather than like broad about the culture itself like maybe how just my family has dealt with something or how they would deal with something or so instead of like actual facts about things that have happened if that makes sense (Laughing). Interviewer: Yea it does. So at grand valley do you really you know connected with other Native Americans is there any kind of group that you’re a part of? Kristy: Um I'm not a part of any groups um I only know of one other Native American kid here. I mean I know there are quite a few but I've only actually met one other person um and he actually approached me after class one day and um because I had commented on something about being Native American and so he came up to me after class and kind of asked about it and it was interesting because I really don’t know anyone else who is native American besides my family so it’s kind of its different talking to someone from like a different tribe and the different things that like they have for school and like deal with for school like he said he can’t take summer classes his tribe won’t pay for summer classes or anything like that and just like I guess the subtle differences and but yea and the only the one person I believe there I think there is a club or something a Native American club but I haven’t really looked into it so it kind of scares Page 7 �me though (Laughing) like I feel like it’s going to be like one of those native pride clubs type of things and I just hahha that’s a little bit above and beyond me. Interviewer: If you don’t mind going kind of back to your dad a second um you know you mentioned some of the things that he went through are there any other stories you know that stick out you know I'm very interested in what life was like growing up for him Kristy: Yea um lets see I know he mentioned like he told me one time about because I did I did this same interview with him when I took the class um so he had mentioned like the part about just learning you were different um and it was when he was young he would like you know the kids go play baseball or whatever well they went back to one of the other kids house to get something to drink after words and the parents told my dad he was not allowed to go into the house and he had to drink from the hose outside but all of the other boys could go inside and it was because my dad was Native American so he wasn’t allowed in the house and he like said that that’s always stuck with him which I can’t imagine how it wouldn’t um so I thought you know that was definitely interesting um he said just like little things going like in school with sports teams and stuff teachers would try as hard as they could to get them off the teams if they could and my dad actually ended up graduating um we have um the actual plaque at our house now and he graduated with honors and academics and athletics and he was the only one presented with the award I believe he was maybe second or third in his class graduating um he still holds two track records at the high school that have yet to be broken um so I mean it was, he’s definitely if you tell him he can’t do something especially because he’s Native American he’s definitely going to do it um so I mean I know he said he was worried when he moved down to Grand Rapids about getting a job because he had a hard time the reason he moved down here was because he had a hard time up north and a lot of times they would flat out tell him because he was Native American and this was in like the mid-70s so it wasn’t that big of a deal to tell someone because of your ethnicity we can’t hire you um but when he came down here he said the first job interview he had he was hired on the spot so again it’s just one of those things where you know he seems to find the good in it um but he did say that people used to um make comments when he was working he’s an electrician so he works outside and um people would often make comments about why he had the job and they didn’t and why they would let him work and wouldn’t give them the job and just comments like that but I don’t think he really cares hahaha um lets see he also talked about when he first moved down here he lived with a family friend until he could get himself established get a job make some money and get his own place um and the guy happened to also be native American and he said that he kind of like showed him around told him the bars you could and couldn’t go to um I guess if you know any sort of trouble in a bar or whatever started you know just leave right away because you they would always the Native Americans would always be arrested no matter what so it was always there fault so he knew the places he could go to the places he couldn’t go to and um but like now it’s much different so and then yea like he sued the city and so I wish I knew more about it but um I know that with the whole lawsuit a big part of it was in his because he works with traffic signals and stuff like that um he has theirs like a electricians license and there also a traffic signals license that you have to have and my dad has both but he also has an engineering license with Page 8 �electronics and they have at the city they have like a ladder of how you move up and everyone starts at the bottom everyone starts at like level one and you have to take so many classes to move up...umm...well they hired a guy right out of traded school who did not have the, all three licenses as my dad did but they put him above him and like all of their contracts say that they have to like everyone starts at the bottom no matter what...umm...I don’t know what else happened with that I don’t know what you know the details about the actual civil rights part...how he was discriminated necessarily when it came to race but...something was there (laughs)...and it worked so...umm I know during that too he said a lot of people told him you know he he shouldn’t be suing the city because they were just going to fire him but... he said he knew better because there was no way the city would fire him when he is suing them for discrimination so... which they didn’t (laughing)...so umm...umm yea...that’s about all I know for the most part..umm...I don’t think there is anything too major for trade school he went to school in... New Mexico I believe and it was a native trade school so obviously he fit right in there (laughing) so but umm yea that those were like the major things I would say Interviewer: Do you feel like he sheltered you from the civil rights law suit at all I mean how old were you, you know, kind of to paint the picture Kristy: I was, I was probably ten...so I remember it all happening I remember him having to go talk to lawyers I remember him having to go to court I remember all of it happening but and I feel like he probably did tell me but I just had no idea what any of it meant nor did I really you know at the time I probably didn’t really care it wasn’t a big deal to me I mean I was too worried about whatever else (laughing) I had going on at that age...umm...so yea I mean I remember knowing about it I remember him like having paperwork and I believe once or twice the lawyer came to our house and I remember them like having to sit down and all of that but I didn’t really know what was going on so..but yea I don’t think he so much sheltered me.. I guess...I believe I did know that it did have to do with discrimination but I don’t think I really understood what that meant exactly anyways so... Interviewer: You said that you know your dad obviously didn't put up with much with this lawsuit did that affect your upbringing did he really you know press it upon you that if you are ever put in this situation you stand up for yourself Kristy: Yes, yes that that’s always been a big deal...umm..I mean some of its come from my dad has only two sisters and there are five boys and I also have three brothers so I’ve always been taught you know you stand up for yourself no matter what...and you know you do what you have to...umm...I mean like they my dad never he didn’t like advocate for violence but he always told me like if people say anything like you know way out of line don’t be afraid to hit someone like don’t be afraid to push them down I mean like I u know at the time like I thought it was great like my dad was telling me I could do this it was awesome but like now I understand like especially seeing the things that he went through like I can’t imagine he had it easy I can’t imagine that he didn’t have to stick up for himself in that way often growing up to so...like I understand where its coming from now I never had to do any of that..umm.. I never really found it a big deal and most people like I guess you can't tell I am Native American most people don’t know I’ve only had one person ever say that I like without knowing say that I look Native Page 9 �American so...I don’t think people really it’s not as easy to tell so...I’ve never really dealt with too much I’ve never really had to deal with it..umm.. but yea he’s definitely told me to stick up for myself do whatever I have to do to stand my ground and...so..I guess I have for the most part but most things don't really bother me so I just let it go Interviewer: Right...what about your older brothers...you have two older brothers right? have they ever come across anything Kristy: Umm...I’m I’m really not too sure...umm..one of them he kind of likes to pick fights with people anyways...he’s just that kind of person like he’s just always far superior to everyone so I really I don’t know much about the actual discrimination but I’m sure..I’m sure they’ve dealt with it to an extent umm..especially because they they are quite a bit older they are 35 and 36 so...they grew up in a much different time and I feel like things were probably still worse then..so but I don’t I..I don’t know of much..umm My oldest brother...I couldn't say much about I mean he works for the tribe now so I know he’s not dealing with much anymore but...umm they both did grow up in Northern Michigan though so Interviewer: Other than the Pow Wows you talked about that are in West Michigan..are there any other kind of you know activities that maybe your family goes to are there any kind of you know awareness I guess about it in West Michigan Kristy: I, I'm really not sure...umm..in the fall I got an email from...it was from I believe the education department at our tribe and they did have umm it was like a dinner or something like a banquet type night down here it was at an elementary school to raise awareness umm..about the Native American culture to like younger kids I didn’t actually end up going which I kind of wish I had but I don’t really know much more about it so I think they’re I mean they are starting to do more they are trying to do more...umm..but otherwise yea we..there’s..we go to our tribes Pow Wow every year...umm but that’s up north..but otherwise in West Michigan all I’ve really ever done is gone to the Pow Wows and I don’t really know too much more of what they have going on...so I’m sure, I’m sure there must be stuff but I’ve never looked into it so... (silence) (Laughing) Interviewer: About your tribe...what’s the name of your tribe and you know how is it I’m new with this so how does it kind of differ from other tribes that kind of thing Kristy: My tribe is the Little Traverse Bay Band of Odawa Indians...umm in all honesty I don’t really know much about how tribes differ umm..the only thing I know is like with money how much money they put out and what I learned with the kid who I met here about how they go about their like the education department how that works umm... but otherwise... I don’t know too much more umm...I really don’t even know too much about what goes on within my tribe only the things that my dad complains about and stuff like that (laughing) so that’s about all I know about the things that they are doing wrong and umm...I mean they ultimately they we have all different departments and like there's an education department they have umm...what is it called..maybe natural resources or something like that I don’t ... it's something strange you wouldn’t think it has all different things but they have umm that’s where they like take care of hunting and fishing licenses...if you are part of the tribe you can hunt and fish like extended times during the year...like my dad’s hunting license starts in September instead of November or Page 10 �whatever it is I don’t know when hunting season starts but he can umm..he can gun hunt starting early September umm.. it has to be north of the Grand River and West of something umm not exactly sure where that middle line is umm..and then with umm...fishing he doesn’t have to like go get a license to fish it’s on the back of his tribal card and with hunting too they send him like the deer tags or however that works and he can get as many as he wants umm which I don’t know much about hunting but apparently that’s great if you're a hunter umm.. (laughing)...I don’t know too much about it my dad doesn't really say much about it I can’t remember the last time he has even come home with a deer it’s been years so...I don't... I don't know too much apparently that that’s just awesome if you can get unlimited hunting tags and... if your already like your fishing license is ready and available all the time I don’t really know (laughing) about that umm...let's see we have our casino that we run umm...most tribes have their own casino and most of like the bigger ones especially if they have a bigger casino they also have a hotel or a resort with it...umm ours is slightly smaller... a tribe that we affiliate with is umm...The Grand Traverse Bay Band of Odawa Indians and they are in Traverse City umm...their casino is huge they have an amazing golf course they have all sorts of really really fancy things that we don't have but...umm let’s see we have an elder program umm...you are considered a tribal elder...at 55 umm..they provide all sorts of assistance for anything you need umm...you can send if you hang on to like grocery receipts you send them up at the end of the year and they reimburse you.. for like 500 dollars or something towards groceries umm we...as a tribal elder you have free all dental work whether it just be regular cleanings or cosmetic..umm...free doctor visits they provide healthcare if you need it umm...what else...then there is the education department they take care of like scholarships for college and you can also get umm scholarships during high school too..umm...for like private schools and stuff they'll give you money to go there umm...I don't really know much about that...umm...what else...they at the tribe they hold a lot of different umm they have like a breakfast for elders daily...umm...they have housing assistance they have employment assistance umm...pretty much any if especially if you are within the tribe they will hire you right away to work there just to make sure that you have a job and you are getting money and stuff so...umm...I'm not really sure what else they have.. again I don't really look into I only look into the things that like my family you know whether my dad uses it or utilizes it or the things that I need so.. Interviewer: Okay what would you say you know are some normal things that your dad you know just things that you know is he at the tribe...how many times a year like that kind of thing Kristy: Umm well one of my uncles still lives in Charlevoix and my oldest brother lives in Boyne Falls and our actual tribe is in Harbor Springs which is right there I don't know if you guys know the area very well but it’s all there all together up there umm the casino and resort is in Petoskey so everything's like in that area...umm..we try to go up there a few times a year if not more umm...we go up every summer we have a family reunion..umm...during the summer my uncle’s house and whoever can make it makes it..umm and we usually try to schedule that around the Pow Wow so everyone can go to that too umm...but every time we are up there I feel like we go to the tribe I don’t really know what we are doing there half the time my dad I mean everything like any forms cause everything you have to fill out a form for and most of the forms Page 11 �are just sign your name and send up there and it’s not a big deal well...my dad doesn’t trust the mail or something I don’t know we have to bring every form there personally to make sure everything is like handed in set and ready to go so...we're always doing that I...were always there doing who knows what half the time he's harassing people that he knows there (laughing)so...most the trips are pointless but usually a few times a year I would say at least three or four times a year if not more... so Interviewer: Are there any moments when you were you know on the reservation kind of growing up any things that stuck out in your mind things that happened within the tribe and... Kristy: Umm... (pause)...not really umm again I don't really know too much about what's going on umm I do know right now and its its now a concern just because I know more about more things I guess and umm...but we're losing a lot of money we the tribe decided a few years back to build a new casino and we already had a casino that was perfectly fine but they wanted to build a bigger and better one..and apparently we did not quite have the money for that...so that was a problem but they thought if they built a bigger casino that was better it would attract more people and they would quickly make money off of it... well they're not and they're not I mean I, I guess not very many people win it's hard to win there so...people don't really like to go there as much so it's kind of like backfiring umm..and...there's a board at the tribe umm so there's like the president, the vice president, the secretary and all like the typical board and they umm...we hold elections every couple years or something for that well they keep electing people and then... they...fire them or kick them off the board but it's actually more expensive to kick them off the board and then bring someone new in. I don’t know how that works exactly, but apparently it is tons of money to do that, so my dad is always complaining about it and just thinks they are all idiots apparently and I am sure he would much rather run the tribe himself because he always has better ideas than them. umm, but I guess it is a little concerning, especially because the tribal money is for people who need the assistance. It is the elders and all the tribes’ money, it is not government money, so they have to provide their own funds to give these people the money that they need. And there are tons of people that don’t have houses and they need this assistance for housing and all of that and I guess it is kind of concerning that we are slowly running out of money. We have no idea how we are going to get the money back because we keep kicking people out for doing the wrong things but it costs us even more money to do that. Again like I said, I don’t really know how that works but my dad and uncles will talk about it and how mad they are about it and how we are just wasting money. Apparently the tribe keeps buying more land up there which they buy it, but they won’t do anything with it, it is just there. Like there are tons of land in northern Michigan that we own we have no money to do anything with it because we keep buying more and using up all the money. so I think it is kind of concerning to know that all this money is slipping away so.. Interviewer: You talked about the drinking problems the tribe faces and the statistics are there like you said, have you noticed if, you know within your tribe if that issue has been addressed? Kristy: umm, I think it is more or less not in my immediate family as much, but in my family. like I mentioned, I have a really big family. I believe there are 41 first cousins. umm.. I think we are definitely the smallest family with 4. One of my cousins has 10 kids. Umm..(pause) I have Page 12 �cousins who have children who are older than me. So..(laughter) There are so many people but just half of them can’t seem to get it together. umm..like one of them, she just recently, well I guess, this past summer she was arrested for her 3rd DUI. She thinks it is stupid that she won’t be eligible for her driver’s license until 2013, like this horrible judge won’t give her her license back (laughter). Umm.. I mean half of them they just can’t keep jobs and it is for stupid things like not showing up for work and that same cousin, she has been fired and rehired at our tribe 3 times...twice was for drinking on the job. So, like they will give you a job no matter what, like you get caught twice drinking on the job and they are still going to give you a job. But, she got fired again for not showing up and being late too much, like they have an attendance policy if you work for them and there aren’t any exceptions and she can’t seem to keep a job, she is only 25 and umm..another cousin is a year older than me, he failed out of his first semester, or first year at the community college up there and he was taking guitar class, pottery class, something else which... he has been playing the guitar for years, he has a bass guitar, acoustic guitar. He knows how to play the guitar, but he failed out of the class. So, now he has to pay back the tribe for his money because he failed out of classes, they are not going to keep giving you money to go to school. So, he now has to pay the tribe back, he has also been fired from the tribe. Umm..a couple of them are.. couple of my cousins are in jail..umm, so it is just like you know the stigmas are there about Native Americans but .. I mean, the stereotypes are true you know if you fit that, if you continue to you know act on this then of course it is going to be there. So you know, I hate having negative stereotypes but like I look at my family and they are all doing it. They can’t keep jobs you know they aren’t going to school, they are constantly in trouble, it is just kind of sad but I think it is more, I guess, it almost makes me mad that they do this. I just think it is so stupid, like I think a lot of them chose the unemployment, of course if you don’t show up for work you are going to unemployed. You can’t expect to show up whenever you want and keep your job. It is..it just sucks and I know some people aren’t choosing it but.. a lot of them are. A lot of them are just lazy. Interviewer: Do you think it really is just laziness or do you think there is a larger problems? Is the tribe too lenient? Kristy: I don’t know if it is too lenient. I think a big thing is that the tribe wants to get rid of the stereotypes and wants to get rid of the statistics and wants to have the most employed that they can, and will get as many employed as they can, they will. And you know, like I said they will hire you back as many times, just so that you are employed so you do have money, like they don’t want people to be on the streets or anything like that but...I also feel like maybe if they didn’t hire people back maybe it would be a wake-up call but..I don’t see that happening because it is more important to them to have people employed so people can feed their family but, it is still just, it’s like a lose, lose situation. No one, you know, you can’t win either way so.. Interviewer: Do you see this problem, you know, like you said, they are trying to work on it but do you honestly see these statistics and stereotypes changing, getting better? K: umm... not really. Uh, like with our tribe it’s not as bad, the statistics on our reservations, not nearly as bad, like the unemployment rates are probably not any worse that like the regular ones umm but there are some of them out West, there are, I think the biggest one it is called Rosebud. Page 13 �I am not sure of the exact percentage, but it is somewhere between 70 and 90 percent unemployed. Like I said, the government doesn’t have to help, so they don’t. And they don’t have to give them money or like, let them go to school. Like the schools, I saw a documentary on them, the schools are literally falling apart. And of course on the reservation they don’t have don’t have money because everyone is unemployed, so they have no way to fix up the school and the government won’t do anything about it because they don’t have to because it is not their duty. So in some places it is much worse and I don’t see it changing because... I mean, especially with just regular statistics, like with how many people are unemployed, like it is a problem right now and the economy is a problem right now too. If they are not doing as much to help everyone else why would they bother there too? Where they don’t have to. By law they don’t have to, so why would they, you know, I feel like it’s logical but not ethical. But it’s logical, I mean why would you put your money where you don’t have to? Soo.. Interviewer: Wrap up question, now looking forward, umm I know you mentioned going back to the reservation as a possibility, how do you see if you choose to go back, you know would you bring up your kids Native Americans? What kind of life do you hope they have? How much do you want them to know about their culture? Kristy: umm..I like, they don’t plan much on doing anything much different from any other family, but I would definitely like them to know. Like, I wish i would’ve known a little more about what my dad went through. Even when I was younger, I wish I knew. I always knew that they lived in foster homes and I knew it was because my grandma passed away, but I didn’t know all the details. I would hope that I can teach them that there were a lot of bad things that happened and that you know, even my dad went through these things but I wouldn’t want them to grow up feeling like.. being Native American like they, what’s the word...like I don’t want, I wouldn’t want them to think that people should treat them different, like they should be treated differently because you know, they are Native Americans and Native Americans went through horrible things. I wouldn’t want them to think that, like I would want them to feel like everyone else. There are not going through it, well i hope they wouldn’t be going through it. Like I didn’t go through anything. So, I mean I don’t feel like anyone should treat me different, I don’t feel like I should have better treatment just because people in the past went through bad things. I think just a regular upbringing but know what’s happened and, like be educated and understand that it happened but..move on from it, I guess. Interviewer: Alright, well, um we can also talk back to the whole government assistance thing, what do you think should happen and what do you hope happens? Should the government be helping out your tribe? K: Umm, I mean, I feel like they are ok for now umm..but I definitely think more should be done for other tribes like, I mean, just even above 50% unemployment, like that is so sad. And, like the documentary that I watched I guess it was a 20/20 special so it was on ABC or whatever the local channel was...Diane Sawyer, or whatever, i believe that’s who it was...she went to the reservation and umm was talking to some of the children and there are kids there who are like 10 or 11,12 drinking, like actually drinking on a daily basis, like there are many of them. It is not uncommon to have an alcohol problem and to have an alcohol problem by the age of 16. Maybe Page 14 �3 or 4 kids graduate from high school a year, maybe.. a lot of them die very young, just from health issues in general because they are drinking so much and things like that. They have a much higher rate of umm..like death from car accidents specifically because people drink and drive umm..what was the question(laughter)? Interviewer: just about the government... Kristy: Oh yeah, like I think in places like that more needs to be done, like I don’t think that is acceptable at all, umm not just because it’s, on a Native American reservation but just because it is any society. I mean, I don’t believe, the government would let any other society, like if it was Grand Rapids, they wouldn’t let the unemployment be that high, they would not let, you know something would be done to stop it. You know, just because they don’t have to, they don’t. I think that, I don’t think that everyone needs to be employed, but I think the unemployment rate should be the same all the way around. I mean, there are people who can’t feed their children, I think children need to fed like whether, whatever the adults are doing, that’s whatever, if they want to have drinking problems, the government doesn’t do much. You have to be willing to get the help, but I think, especially the children, every child deserves to have an education and go to school. I really wish that the “No Child Left Behind Act” or whatever, well that doesn’t apply there. So, that’s when kids don’t graduate because they don’t have, like most schools don’t have any computers at all. Uh, they don’t have, if they have textbooks, they are from like the 70s and 80s that they have just kept, they don’t have the money to get anything new. Everything that they could be learning, it probably isn’t useful or relevant anymore. So, it just, I don’t understand especially with children how they can just let it go, I mean obviously you aren’t doing anything for the children, nothing is ever going to get better because children become adults some day and still do not have an education. I still wish it could be like equal all around so...but I don’t know if it will happen. Interviewer: Is there anything else you would like to tell us about? Kristy: I don’t think so, I mean if there are any other, like last questions anyone else has? Interviewer: I guess the only other question I had, was umm, in class we discussed how kids sometimes, they keep things that have happened in the past, like especially in history like kind of like sugar coated, is the best word I can put and I just wonder, like what your input would be? like, should we let kids get taught the real thing like what they real thanksgiving was about like, you know what I mean? Kristy: Umm, I definitely think it should be a little bit more fact based, I mean, I definitely, like, I said, just learned that you know, for the real thanksgiving everyone ate together and then they killed all the Indians afterwards, like I had no idea, like I have always thought of thanksgiving as like the Indians and the pilgrims came together and everyone ate and it was a great time and everyone was happy afterwards...and I had no idea like how it was, and I think that, i mean especially like being Native American, it was like shocking to learn, like this is what I have always been taught, but this is what really happened so, I think people should know more along the lines. I mean not, I don’t think we should teach like the horrible things to young children, I mean, you don’t need them to have nightmares, but I don’t think it should be so much you know Happy Thanksgiving everyone was happy afterwards, I mean, like I know in school they didn’t Page 15 �exactly say that, but you can assume, if they all came together and had this great dinner together and everyone got along then everyone got along afterwards. I think things are left out and I think some of the details should be included and I think it should be a little less sugar coated maybe not you know completely like blunt facts but a little less. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5b0f7f8dce30aca9f0ea71144db1bb91.mp3 10555297b4c32a1b47d5c396113a9359 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Skippergosh_Kristine_2 Title A name given to the resource Kristine Skippergosh audio interview 2 and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Skippergosh, Kristine Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rogers, Alyssa Johson, Cailie Johson, Stephanie Rhenshaw, Lyndsay Description An account of the resource Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties her father faced regarding race in his early years, as well as some of her own challenges. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Indians of North America--Personal narratives Discrimination against Indians of North America Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b46579ea044f2e0b721591fee6c367e9.pdf 862b72d3d1660f926977ac83efe112fe PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Sequin-Beighley, Colette Interviewers: James Smith, martin Feenstra and Jacob Bouwman Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/12/2011 Runtime: 00:32:29 Biography and Description Colette Seguin-Beighley is director of the LGBT resource center at Grand Valley State University. She compares her experiences growing up in San Francisco during the civil rights movement with her experiences in West Michigan. Transcript J: My name is Jacob Bouwman, and I’m here today, Tuesday the 29th at 2 p.m. with Colette at the LGBT center in Allendale Michigan, and we are here today to talk about her experience with civil rights in West Michigan. Could you give some basic information about yourself, like your name, date of birth, religion, life partner, child, children? C: (Laughter), wow, date of birth! All right, (Laughter). Colette Seguin Beighley, April 10th 1957, long before you guys were even thought of! I currently do not have a life partner, although that’s up for debate, that could be conversation, negotiating that, I have two biological children, two stepchildren and a daughter-in law, and my oldest biological child is my son Arie, and he is gay. J: And then where did you grow up? C: I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area, Berkeley, in the 60’s, so that was a very tumultuous time when lots of civil rights movements were being born, beginning with the free speech movement on the Campus of UC Berkley and going onto the civil rights movement, the black panther party in Oakland was developed and very much in the forefront during that time, and then Indians of all tribes, which is how they wanted to be named, occupied Alcatraz and demanded civil rights federally and then also during that time there was the gay rights movement in San Francisco and the women’s movement happened during that time as well, and then in my early adulthood I was living in the San Francisco bay area when AIDS hit so there was a lot going on during my growing up years. J: Yeah, that’s pretty much a discussion of what it was like growing up, but obviously it was pretty crazy. Page 1 �C: Yeah, I feel like I have that, those civil rights movements are really sort of imprinted in my DNA, and looking at the world through the lens of marginalized communities as well, questioning the status quo, and making sure not to be a guardian of the status quo is also part of what I was left with. J: Then how did you get to West Michigan, what brought you to West Michigan? C: Let’s see, when I was married to Arie and Chloe’s dad, he was from Muskegon, and so we thought this would be a great place to raise a family, and it probably is, unless you have a gay kid, then not so much. J: Then how did that make you feel about being in West Michigan? C: I was really in culture shock; obviously I didn’t do my homework to know that there were places that were so different from the San Francisco Bay area. The first thing that I noticed was that I felt as though the women’s movement had never come here. So I moved in 1989 and the way that men talked about their partners was just so patriarchal, so misogynistic, and also I saw a lot of bigotry and just tremendous homophobia, so it was a really difficult move for me and I handled that by sort of going underground, and my friends, we would always say, “we’re not from around here,” and it was people like from a different country or a different state, who had also relocated to West Michigan who brought through difference, and a different world view and I just sort of was under the radar until Arie came out and that was really a turning point for me, and I felt like I had to give voice, I couldn’t be silent anymore. Ji: Do you have any specific experiences, or like crazy examples of how you found out that this area was really homophobic and stuff like that, do you have an examples? C: Well, I remember some friends of ours who were really our best friends, we thought lets go to Saugatuck for the weekend, you know, lets just go hang out, a great little town on the lake, fun little cottagey sort of town, and they were like, noooooo! We cannot go down there; there are queers down there! And then I was like *incredulous face*. At that point I had, had many dear friends whom I loved so much die of AIDS, so that was not only so offensive, it was just shocking, it was really like water being thrown in my face, and then also, I had seen probably three or four families have family members who had come out, and they were never integrated into the family, it was always problematic, and they were ejected, they never stayed around in the area. This was on the lakeshore now, I was living in the Spring Lake, Grand Haven area, so that was my experience before Arie came out. I knew that was the culture that I was living in. And plus, this is very personal, but my ex-husband was also a minister in the Wesleyan Church, and he has a PhD in marriage and family therapy, so he had a private practice, but he worked within that denomination, so I’m not really a church person, I wasn’t, I didn’t grow up in that world but you know, I would go, and until the homophobia from the pulpit became so much that I would blow out of there, and I think we landed in 3 different churches and I remember one time him saying to me you make it very hard for me to be a pastor. I am like this so it is very hard for me to hear this kind of hate I can’t sit there through that! So yeah, there was a lot of dissonance. J: And then you said that was your husband? C: Yes Page 2 �J: Were there any books or films or speeches or newspapers that influenced your thinking about gender relations at all? C: Well, gender relations, that’s an interesting way of to put it. Ok, so let me go down that very sort of generic gender relations thing. So in the early 80’s when I met my soon to be husband, I was coming from a place where the world, in the world that I lived in, people didn’t really feel the need to get married, they were really challenging that institution and saying that it was based on patriarchy and was institutionally oppressive, so I knew lots of families where the kids had two last names, and they were never married but they were happy families who were growing up together, so then I began a relationship with someone from the Midwest who had a very traditional upbringing, very church-based as well and that was not something he could really tolerate, so what he could tolerate was getting married and so I went down that road, so that challenged me in lots of ways, you know I think that initially I did not believe in the institution, then I bought into the institution, and not in any way to villainify my ex-husband because I have a great relationship with him, but the institution I think, is founded on a wrong premise and I just don’t see that its necessary, it’s the state valuing some relationships over other relationships and we get lots of benefits if we buy into that right? We get 1138 federal benefits that come with marriage, that unmarried partners do not have so why does the state get to say which relationships are valid and which aren’t? J: And then, you answered the next question kind of, but it was do you remember any family friends or individuals in the community that were discriminated against either formally or informally, but were there any examples in education or in employment, and you said socially, made one, but like in education or employment at all, did you see any discrimination at all? C: In California when I was growing up or here? J: Either one. C: Ok, well, I moved to, I grew up in the projects, and then when I was in 2nd grade we moved to a suburban neighborhood, a low income neighborhood, but it was a suburban neighborhood out of the projects and the first kid I met his name was Bruce, so im in 2nd grade at this point, and we grew up together, and he was sort of small in stature and he had the misfortune of the fact that his mom had remarried. He was a child from her previous marriage so his stepdad was also a retired marine and Bruce was not his biological child so Bruce was fairly effeminate and there was tremendous gender policing that went on with his dad and his dad would beat him. It was so traumatizing. He would just yank him out of the room and just start beating him. So I’d maybe be 10 feet away, just a wall separating us and I can still just hear blood-curdling screams in my head. It was so awful. It was so awful. So then my relationship with Bruce of course continued and we would walk to school together and he was often the victim of bullies, and I was like painfully shy when I was growing up so I wasn’t someone who would like jump in and break things up because I was just overwhelmed by the whole experience, and I remember one time he actually even had a broken leg, and just always being bullied, but just him looking up from the ground at me and saying Colette go for help. And there is something about that that has become sort of a life mission for me like I’m still trying to go for help for Bruce and then to bring that to your question of education, the principal would always blame Bruce for the fact Page 3 �that he was getting bullied. “Well if you’d just man up, if you would just you know act more like you’re supposed to then this wouldn’t be happening to you” so Bruce dropped out of school when we were, before our junior year in high school and he was the very first, and he lived on the street, totally on the street in San Francisco, just you know how survival, just trying to survive, he was the first person I ever knew who died of AIDS, it was at a time when the disease was very, very new and we were actually whispering it, you would not even talk about it, you’d just whisper it, it was so scary and so much shame was around it, just a horrible horrible, horrible time, so I feel like that really was my experience of knowing Bruce has impacted me in many ways. Ji: And then, what about like education and your employment here? I assume that it’s not as bad obviously, but are there any examples that influenced you more? C: Discrimination at Grand Valley specifically you’re talking about? Yeah, there are certainly examples of discrimination at Grand Valley that are part of Grand Valley’s history. Grand Valley has quite a history, I’m going to give you a DVD of the history, there’s one chapter in there about Grand Valley, I think we have finally come to a place where we are on the road to being great allies to the LGBT community, but still trying to figure out what that means. But the university has had a lot of bumps along the way and a lot of people have been hurt. It’s been a long process. Now the university is very committed to the community and we’re always trying to figure out more what that means. J: I definitely feel like if anybody here like talked about saying queer or saying anything bad like automatically I know a lot of people from Grand Valley are against like they view that they’re against them like it’s so out of the ordinary not to be ok with it, like I’m kind of happy that Grand Valley’s that ways now, like I don’t know it’s just like in high school, you saw, I always saw like bullying and stuff like that, but here if anybody were to say something, it would be like you can’t say that here. That’s why I’m kind of happy to be at a place like this, because people know that it’s not right and like they’re the ones that are shunned, not the ones that are coming out that are gay or bi or anything. C: That’s good to hear. You’re a member of the Greek community right? J: Yeah. C: Yeah, my daughter Chloe, she’s… J: Oh yeah! C: Are you a member of the Greek community? Ji: No I am not. C: Well a couple years ago the Greek community came to us and asked if we would do Greek ally training, so we’ve been doing Greek allies and advocates now, and we have nearly 300 Greeks who are trained to be allies and that’s so different from other college campuses where the Greek community is not friendly to the LGBT communities so I think that’s a wonderful thing about Grand Valley. Page 4 �J: I mean, I can’t get too involved just because of like rowing and everything, but I mean, I know a lot of Greeks are trying to work toward that too. But anyways, who are your civil rights heroes locally? C: Locally? You know, ok, I do have a hero locally. Doug VanDoren, who is the pastor of Plymouth Congregational United Church of Christ, is a wonderful civil rights leader in our area. He is a great champion of marginalized communities whether its refugees whether its women and he was one of the first people to come out for the LGBT community and that’s in this DVD that I just gave you as well. He’s in there. But he talks about how there was a Byron Center teacher who was outed. There’s a whole chapter about Jerry Crane, and that’s the name of the instructor, the Byron Center teacher, he was outed, and it created this firestorm throughout Byron Center, there was a school board meeting where 800 people attended and pretty much Jerry Crane was on trial, he’d had a commitment ceremony, and his students got wind of it, and then it got to the parents, and then the American Family Society stepped in, and started handing out letters and videos to every mailbox of parents and they were just really sensationalized videos of like gay pride parades and they take the most extreme pictures and it was really horrible experience so they did not fire Jerry because the risk of litigation was too high, but he did quit at the end of the year. That next year he died of a stress related heart attack at 32 years old. So during that time when there was this pastor who you’ll see in this video because that story made 20-20 so there’s a clip of the 20-20 story on this DVD. This pastor from Byron Center was just so hateful toward the gay community, so Doug VanDoren stepped up and stood in solidarity with Jerry Crane’s pastor who was supportive of him and got other pastors on board so they had like, I don’t know, 50 or 100 pastors who had signed on in support of Jerry Crane and his church so you know Doug just came out of nowhere and did this organizing, and then around prop 2 which said, which is our anti-marriage equality constitutional amendment here in Michigan, he also organized a group called the “Concerned Clergy” which is, you know, local pastors who did not want discrimination written into our constitution. So he’s a great organizer, he’s a wonderful speaker, he’s very very very articulate and just has this great heart, and his congregation is extremely welcoming and affirming of the LGBT community. J: What about nationally? C: Nationally, well let’s see. I’m going to try to think of one that isn’t just the basic one. Hmmm. Currently I just really admire the work of Incite! Its women of color who are doing organizing work around police brutality and they’re doing it outside of the non-profit world. They’re doing grassroots organizing that isn’t tied to professionalizing their work by becoming non-profit. It’s not tied to funders in any way. They can speak their truth and not worry about losing funding and they’re really amazing heroes. I’ve recently this year been reading feminist literature by women of color so Angela Davis, Belle Hookes, reading those works, and I think they’re amazing heroes of mine. It’s the women’s movement was erroneously framed from a white perspective. White middle class perspective and it left out women of color, women of lower socio-economic classes and so these women developed their own voices and that’s been really instructional for me this year. Of course all the basics, you know, MLK, but I’m trying to talk about some other voices as well. J: You kind of talked about how, like how did your thinking about your identity change growing up? You said your son was a big factor, but was there anything else? Was there any other major factors or experiences or anything? Page 5 �C: *pause* hmmm…Interesting question. I’m a first generation college student from my family and as I said, grew up in the projects, so come from a background where going to college was just frowned upon because it would make you snooty, and so then I went on the get an advanced degree which is even more sort of an act of betrayal actually and I think that growing up in those roots has been impactful because I don’t have an elite upbringing. People never think I grew up in the projects. They always think I had a privileged upbringing. I don’t know why but that’s what they think and so I’m happy that I have had that experience even though at times it was harrowing, it just widens my view of the world a little bit more. J: What kind of work do you do now? C: Well I’m the director of the LGBT Resource Center. I also sit on the board for Equality Michigan, which is our state anti-violence and advocacy organization serving the LGBT community. I also am involved with the National Consortium of Higher Education Resource Center Professionals. Way to long in name, I know *laughs* but it’s all the LGBT campus resource centers and a regional representative with that, and what else? Read the question again. J: It was just what do you do? What is your work that you do? C: So now my work changes every day. The mission of the LGBT resource center is to educate and empower students to lead authentic lives, to challenge gender and sexuality stereotypes and to work for social justice, so all our work is framed around that, and I always think of that in terms of pushing out a space to create the greater visibility for the LGBT community, but also to mainstream their issues. I think of our office as serving 25,000 students on campus, not just the LGBT community because these students who are from the dominant group live in a society where a whole group of people don’t have their rights so that is their issue as well, this is not just an LGBT issue, this is everybody’s issue. So we work with students and help them along their developmental journey. We work with faculty and staff as well, we support them, we work with the institution to make sure our policies and practices are supportive of the community, we work in the community, probably more so than other offices, because our students, faculty, staff, alums all go out into the community to work and live and that’s a community where they don’t have their rights so our work expands in that direction as well. J: And then, it asks if you could tell like a story, about how like, one of the specific ways the organizations that you’re part of, is there a story you can just tell about one of them, just anything like that? C: Well I’ll tell you a couple different student experiences, I don’t know if these are going to fit, but we had one student bounce into campus at 9 o’clock move-in morning, and he had moved in at 8 o’clock and then had made a beeline for the LGBT resource center, and he walked in and was just like exploding, so happy, and I went “Hi, I’m Colette” and he goes “I know, I know all of your names because I’ve been studying the website, I’m just so happy to be here” and I was just like “wow this is so great, you know”. The next day I get into work, and Carrie tells me that student is here, he’s very, very, very distressed, he’s out in Kirkhof somewhere, and I’m like oh my gosh did something happen to him. I find him and he says “I’ve made a terrible mistake, I should never have come here, this is not a safe place, and I just need Page 6 �to leave.” I go “Oh my gosh did something happen?” “No I just know this is not a safe place. Inside your office is safe, but not out here” I go “So nothing happened?” “No.” “I don’t think you’ve had any experience of being safe in different places. Why don’t you just come into the center and hang out with us today and do some work for us?” So he happily stuffed envelopes for faculty members with our programming in it and was happy as a clam, but it was interesting because at that time we had our little barrier up here to create a cubby space and it felt like we just placed him inside a cocoon for about 4 hours and he just stuffed his envelopes and we were chatting and doing our stuff and students were coming in and out and he was a part of that too. After 4 hours the student that I met the first day, came to my door and just said “I’m completely over it, I don’t know what happened. I have my feet back on the ground; I’m ready to go out again, thank you for letting me stay here.” I think that’s a good example of the resource center, you know, from that perspective of being a safety net for students who have high risk, we’ve had students walk into our center who’ve had bandaged wrists from attempted suicide. We have students who have to walk over to the counseling center because they’re in such distress. Another story is, we had a freshmen come in. On our balcony there’s a big 16 foot banner during the first weeks of school that says “The LGBT resource center welcomes you to campus.” Then it says “Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender” because so many students don’t know what LGBT is. So he came in and said “I saw the banner and I stopped and I took a picture of it, and I couldn’t believe that I was in a place that had that kind of banner” So it was very sweet. And then we had a straight student come in at the beginning of the school year and she said “I came here because of this center, and I don’t identify as being a member of the community, but when I came on my campus tour, and I saw that Grand Valley had an LGBT resource center, I thought this is the kind of place I want to go to school at. It was just really a sweet story, also again of how our presence is educational to all the student body not just, it sends a clear message, that no matter where straight students are on their journey of being an ally or not being an ally, the message is clear that Grand Valley supports this community. There are a few stories. Ji: Can you describe exactly what an ally is when you describe that? I’m not really sure what that is. C: An ally is someone who is supportive of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer community and that is on the continuum, right, so it’s not just, you’ve passed over the threshold, now you’re an ally. It’s a developmental journey, that you’re really always on, so it could be that the journey started like this: You used to tell homophobic jokes, but now you don’t tell homophobic jokes anymore, because you’re moving along the journey, so now, you don’t say anything though when the homophobic jokes go on, so then you’re moving along in the journey, and now maybe you feel like, I’m just not ok with that anymore, I’m going to say something, and then maybe you move along farther and you start to incorporate friendships with people from the community. Then move along a little farther, and you include language that does not exclude the community in the way you live your life, like maybe you start saying partner instead of husband or wife because you’re aware that not everybody is heterosexual, but we live in a heterosexist society, so we’re taught to think that way, and then just to being an all-out radical ally at the other end of the continuum who is advocating for LGBT rights on campus, off campus, you know, making the commitment to the community as really part of your life. Make sense? Ji: Yeah, that makes sense Page 7 �C: So it’s not just like… and then as, I think that as you’re going on, you can’t ever say that you’ve really arrived, because you’re always becoming more and more aware of the ways that people are oppressed, you know once you’re an ally to one community it opens your eyes to the ways that other communities experience discrimination. J: What, are there any specific ways that you think Grand Valley needs to improve? C: You’re going to make me say it on tape huh? *laughs* J: *laughs* Have they improved? C: I think Grand Valley has improved tremendously, and I think Grand Valley wants to continue to improve and the intent is to make the needs of students, not just LGBT students, but straight students in educating them to be critical thinkers who can address injustice and create change and I think that is what a liberal education is about, so I think that Grand Valley is very committed to the process, it doesn’t mean that we’re perfect, it doesn’t mean that we’re there. There’s always, always more work to be done. J: Yeah. Were you involved… you said you went to college and further than that. Were you involved in any organizations in college at all? I don’t remember if you ever said. C: No, I really didn’t become an advocate until after college. I had lots of friends who were involved in Central American politics. Lots of friends who were involved in pro-choice efforts, but I think my son coming out and learning about the violence that he suffered before he came out really radicalized me. Ji: I think we learned a lot. Thank you so much. END OF INTERVIEW Page 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/59d568b21439bc197183beab094f0fdb.mp3 fd5212fe749809ca0e65f17d61748bb6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Seguin-Beighley_Colette_1 Title A name given to the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley audio interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seguin-Beighley, Colette Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, James Feenstra, Martin Bouwman, Jacob Description An account of the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley is director of the LGBT resource center at Grand Valley State University. She compares her experiences growing up in San Francisco during the civil rights movement with her experiences in West Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c322c0b2e137473efb65bd982632f657.pdf cf118a48fc963659b6dd0de1c1bdd75e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Lucia Rios Interviewers: Bethanie Billing Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/20/2012 Runtime: 01:35:10 Biography and Description Lucia Rios discusses her experiences with Spina Bifida and life in western Michigan. Transcript Bethanie: Ok, so my name is Bethanie Billing and I am here today February, Monday, February 20th, 2012 with Lucia Rios at Grand Valley State University downtown campus – Pew Campus. We are here today to talk about your experiences with civil rights in Western Michigan and now I’m going to read you the Oral History release form. Speaking Out: Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories. I, in your case Lucia Rios, hereby agree to participate in an interview in connection with the Oral History Project known as Speaking Out: Western Michigan’s Civil Right Histories at Grand Valley State University. I understand that the purpose of this project is to collect audio recorded oral histories as well as selected related documentary materials such as photographs and manuscripts from those knowledgeable about civil rights and civil rights activism in Western Michigan with the goal of preserving these materials and making them available for teaching and research. This may include publication in print, multimedia programs such as radio and television and the WWW among others. I understand that I may be identified by name subject to my consent. I may also be identified by name in any transcript whether verbatim or edited of such interviews subject to my consent. If I choose to remain anonymous, I know that audio recordings of my interview will be closed to use. My name will not appear in the transcript or reference to any material used in the interview. I know that in the case of choosing to remain anonymous, my interview will only be identified by an internal speaking out project tracking number. I understand the interview will take approximately two hours and that I can withdraw from the Page 1 �project without prejudice prior to the execution and delivery of this release form. In the event that I withdraw from the interview, any recordings made of the interview will either be given to me or destroyed and no transcript will be made of the interview. I understand that a photograph of me may be taken or borrowed for duplication and that if I withdraw from the project the photograph will be given to me and any copies made for the project will be destroyed. I understand that upon completion of the interview, subject to all of the other terms and conditions of this agreement, GVSU shall own the copyrights to this work and will be able to use it any manner it chooses including but not limited to use by researchers and students in presentations and publications but that I shall be given a perpetual license to use my contribution in any manner or any medium as long as I notify GVSU prior to such use. I understand that any restrictions as to the use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. I understand that upon the completion of this interview and signing the release, the recordings, photographs, and one copy of the transcript will be kept in Grand Valley State University’s Libraries Special Collections in Allendale, Michigan. If I have questions about the research project or procedures I know that I can contact Dr. Melanie Schellweis in the department of Liberal Studies, 227 Lake Ontario Hall, Grand Valley State University, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI 49404. Phone number (616) 331-0859 or via e-mail at shellm@gvsu.edu and then umm… you can choose to initial where you would like if you agree to be identified by name in any transcript or in reference to any information contained in this interview or you wish to remain anonymous in any transcript or reference to any information contained in this interview. Bethanie: Alright. So then we have to date them and sign them and then umm, we’d also like your address and phone number and then umm we’ll sign our names or I’ll sign my name. Lucia Rios: Ok. (laughs) Ryan: Also, just so you know the interview might not last the full two hours. Lucia Rios: Ok. Ryan: Our teacher said anywhere between 60 minutes to 90 minutes. Bethanie: However long we feel comfortable or you had a chance to tell us your story. Lucia Rios: Ok. Do I sign these too? Bethanie: Yes, please and then can you also sign this one because errr… Page 2 �Lucia Rios: Do you want me to put all the information down again? Bethanie: Umm, I think if you just sign yours and then I’ll and then your name and then I’ll sign my name because you get to take that copy with you. Lucia Rios: Ok. Bethanie: So that you know what you agreed to. (Laughing) Ryan: Plus you know where you live. (Laughing) Bethanie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Yeah, I know. Ok. (silence, signing papers) Bethanie: Ok. So, ummm, do you want to start off giving us some background information about you like… Lucia Rios: Yeah. Bethanie: When you were born and where you were raised and… Lucia Rios: Ok. Bethanie: What it was like… Lucia Rios: Ok. (Laughing) Umm, well my name is Lucia Rios and I was born on March 26th, 1980 so I’m a little bit older than you guys (laughing) and I was actually born and raised in Holland, Michigan. And so umm, my parents are both Mexicans, American raised. My dad was born in Mexico but my mom was born in Indiana but my dad ended up becoming a U.S. citizen when he was, when he was I think younger. So then he moved here when he was like 6 so that’s kind of that. So umm, but I actually am the 3rd of 4 children. So I have two older sisters and then a younger brother and we are all two years apart so my mom and dad were very… (laughing) Julie: Consistent. Page 3 �Lucia Rios: (laughing) Consistent, yeah. So umm, but actually I’m the only one in my family, in my immediate family that has a significant disability so I was born with what’s called spina bifida Julie: Ok. Lucia Rios: And you’ve probably heard of it because it’s actually, umm, one of the most common birth defects. Umm, that’s been around. I mean, that’s very common so umm, it is umm, can be so severe that babies die when they are born and or but it can be very umm, not as severe where people don’t even notice it right away maybe until later on in life, I mean. You know it can be to the effect of where a baby can’t walk to people can walk but maybe they have some of the effects of the spina bifida. So, at one point while I was forming in my mom’s womb umm, my spinal cord opened up and so that was, everything was affected because of that. Umm, but luckily, my spinal cord closed where as some babies are born with open spines so they may have to have surgery right away and that type of thing. So I am pretty fortunate, actually. Umm, because I, I do use a wheel chair and I use crutches but ummm, I have a lot of mobility and I mean I wasn’t paralyzed and I’ve never had surgery on my back which a lot of children have and part of what’s spina bifida is a common thing is that babies are born with hydrocephalis, which is water on the brian. And so, ummm… Julie: Right. Lucia Rios: So I didn’t have to worry about that. I was not born with that. So I, I mean people kind of think that it’s funny when I say, “I’m actually pretty fortunate” because I am. I mean, it could have been a lot worse. Umm, but ummm, yeah. So I was born and my mom did not know until I was born. It’s funny because she says that she knew something was different because she said that you know how when babies are in the womb they kick… Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: And I wouldn’t kick. I would just more like swim, it was like swimming… (Laughter) she could feel me swimming in there but I wasn’t like kicking. And so, but the doctors were like, “No, no. It’s ok. It’s ok.” Calm her down. But when I was born you know, she said that, you know, right away she knew something was wrong because umm, it was a long time, the birth. And then, the doctors she just kind of said, swarmed in like, “Ahhhh” you know and so you know, I was born with broken hips and my Page 4 �legs were kind of messed up (laughter) so I did have to have surgery on my legs when I was older though, not right away when I was a baby. So, ummm, but right away my mom just treated me like I was just a quote un-quote normal child. Ummm, but you know, she was, from the moment that I was born she already got a lot of people saying well she’s not gonna live, ummm, we can’t bring her into the room because she’s going to upset the other mothers who just had their babies. You know, things like that so right away she was, ummm, had to deal with the attitudes that people had against her child who was just a baby. Julie: Mmmhhmmm. Lucia Rios: Ummm, and so and against her for having the baby. So, umm, but you know, the doctors said, you know, you can put her in a home, you can leave her, and this is back in 1980 so it’s not like it was like the 60’s or the 50’s, you know. (mumbling in background) Lucia Rios: I was actually surprised that that was still going on. Umm, but you know, she took me home and just kind of raised me. So, ummm, but they were worried when my brother was born that he would have spina bifida as well but he turned out healthy, you know. And so, now they tell a lot of people eat folic acid. Take things with folic acid because they think that that might help prevent it. And I don’t know if it does. My mom says that she, she had a lot of foods with folic acid but you know it still ended up that way. Umm, so I think it is just kind of, I personally believe that it was, it was an event that happened and really it’s no one’s fault. Julie: Mmmhhmmm. Lucia Rios: I never blamed my mom. And I mean, I blamed God sometimes but that was sometimes when I was in college. (Laughter) But as far as, you know, it’s kind of something that happens so ummm, but you know that, they, they do try to bring more awareness about spina bifida but ummm, you know they don’t know if it’s genetic or not. Because like I said, no one in my family has it. The only other person in my family with a disability is more of a mental, well, cognitive disability. Ryan: Yeah. Page 5 �Lucia Rios: My aunt has a pretty significant, she’s more lower functioning. Umm, but with my dad’s side of the family they kind of put her in a home right away. So it was really interesting how that side of the family was like, “well, let’s just put it away” Julie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: And then, you know… Julie: Kind of sweep it under the rug. Lucia Rios: Yeah, sweep it under the rug. It was kind of like, and that was, well she was a lot older than me so that was back you know when you would expect that. So, but ummm, anyway, yeah, I mean I was umm, I guess, I mean, the whole ummm, I mean growing up, just you know, I never didn’t really know any differently because you know, it was just the way it was. Sophie: Did your mother ever like make it apparent to you that you were any different? Like, were you aware that you were different than other children? Lucia Rios: No, well it was when I started getting to be in middle school. Not, middle school, in elementary school. More when, I was getting older, umm, where kids umm, you know, would tease me sometimes, or you know I couldn’t play certain sports or do certain things. But, luckily, because of the community I grew up in and I grew up with, you know, I was in school by the time I was three years old. They thought, oh she has a disability you know, she has something wrong cognitively as well but that wasn’t the case. (Laughter) But, I mean, it did help me because umm, you know, it got me ahead. So, I was put in preschool when I was three and so luckily a lot of my, the people I went to school with, they grew up with me. So, I didn’t have to explain everything all the time. Umm, but I was in like kindergarten, I remember umm, bringing in my brace to show all my, ummm, all my, the classmates Interviewers: Mhhmmm. Lucia Rios: What it exactly was because the brace was like from mid chest all the way down and I was like a robot. (Laughter) But so, you know, there was a lot of education on my mom’s part and my teacher’s part to make sure that the students knew what was going on so that they wouldn’t tease or be scared or not be afraid to ask questions. And that, I think helped because I know that doesn’t always happen. Ryan: No. Page 6 �Lucia Rios: Umm, but you know my mom never told me that I was different. I never really felt like different until it was actually, like the actions of others that made me feel that something was wrong with me. And so, ummm, that’s kind of where it was especially in, I remember it starting in middle, elementary school which felt a little bit different or people looked at me a little bit more or people would tell me that I couldn’t do something or ummm. Or then, umm, when we’d go shopping and Holland is very conservative. Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: And people would want to pray for me. (Laughter) People would want to pray for me and you know, people would come up to my mom and me in the grocery store and say, “If you have faith, she’ll be healed” type of thing. Interviewers: Oh. Lucia Rios: So that is kind of where actually, I started realizing that something is different with me. Because, you know, I was main-streamed when I was young. Umm, you know, the doctors appointments and things like that, it was just kind of that’s the way it always was. Umm, you know and I think the difference between me and maybe someone else who acquired a disability is that it is all I’ve known… Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: So I don’t know what life is like without it. Where as, someone who maybe gets a spinal cord injury, they understand what life is like beforehand and then it is probably that much more harder to, to live with it or just to accept it. So, I think that’s kind of the way that it was. Ummm, my siblings all treated me the same and so did my cousins and I think they just kind of, they just, it was just the mentality of it’s just “Lucie” that’s what they called me. (Laughter) So you know, you know we’ll just accept her and that was really good. So I never really felt different from my family in that regards. Sophie: Was there ever a certain event that happened that you can remember, that you can remember distinctly when you realized, “oh well, like, I know that I’m different now” because of this certain event? Page 7 �Lucia Rios: Yeah, well I think it was when I was, ummm, as I was getting older and I was actually about fourteen years old. You know how when you’re young you daydream? You know, I was like oh I want to be a writer, oh I’m going to move to New York, oh I’m going to… (Laughter) Lucia Rios: But all those dreams that we had. And for some reason, I really thought it would be different when I grew up that I would not have the disability anymore, which is really weird to think because. And I think it partly because, I knew, at that point I knew that I was really different. You know, in middle school, I wasn’t the one that was into boys or into make-up because I was more focused on: oh, I’m gonna go to the doctor or this is going on or I had to miss school because of this. And so, I was more focused on that. And very, just like, it felt like I was a little bit, ummm, I had to think of things differently than some of my, my peers as well. But when I was fourteen years, I actually went to, umm, and I’m of shorter stature, and part of that is because of I’m, ummm, missing vertabraes in my neck and my spine. Umm, which you know, would make me a little bit shorter. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: And so, but I think that I always thought that I was going to get taller too and I don’t know why. And so, but when I was in the doctor’s office there was something, ummm, he had left and I don’t know where my mom was, she might have been there too, but I looked at my chart. And that’s the first time that I ever looked at like one of my charts and my chart was really thick. But on it, there was a word, and I can’t like, for the life of me, remember the word, but I know it was like, one of those things where it was like indefinitely, definitely – it’s gonna stay. It’s permanent. And when I saw that word it was almost like, ummm, it was almost like, it was, it was like the turning point as far as when I thought wow, this isn’t going to change. And I know it’s kind of, people think like, oh you were fourteen you should have known but… Ryan: Did that, did that hurt? Lucia Rios: I mean, that did. Ryan: Or like was it like this is how that’s going to be? You know, people can take that different ways. Lucia Rios: I think it did hurt at first because I thought, “Oh my gosh! You know, I’m not going to get taller. (Laughter) You know, and I’m not going to, and you know, wow, people are going to treat me Page 8 �differently forever.” And that’s where it hurt. It wasn’t me. And I always tell people this. I don’t feel like it’s the disability that’s a problem. Or umm, my problem but it’s the attitudes and the way others treat me and react that make the disability, ummm, a barrier. Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Because, you know, I go about and I do things. I can drive, I work, I have my own place. You know, I’m doing all this stuff. I’ve gone to college. So I haven’t let it affect me. But then, the people who are out there who say, “oh are you sure you can do that? Or, oh do you drive? Or, you work part-time, right?” Those are the things that really… Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Those are the things, that really, that cause the barriers. Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Because of the attitudes. Or a facility, an inaccessible building. If there is not an elevator, I couldn’t get up here. Or, you know, if there are stairs to a good, a popular restaurant, I can’t go in that is the barrier, not the disability. And so, umm, I think that’s kind of, how, how my view point is now to it. I don’t have a problem with it. It’s more others have a problem with it and sometimes I wonder why because I’m the one that lives with it, you know. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: So, I mean, but I mean, that, that when I was fourteen that was the moment that it changed. I remember going home and being so upset. And looking at my jeans and saying, you know, I’m never going to wear, like, adult jeans. You know, things like that. I mean, the little things. And then I thought well, you know, also, at that time I was told that I couldn’t have children either. Sophie: Really, wow. Lucia Rios: Yeah, at fourteen. So I mean, so then, that stuff too. And you know when you are little you think, oh I’m going to have a family, I’m going to have this… Sophie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: So just all of that stuff combined just kind hit home with me. Page 9 �Sophie: Yeah, are you really family oriented? Like I feel like you would be… Lucia Rios: Yeah. Yup. Yeah. Sophie: How did that information affect you because I know, like personally, family is a big thing for me too? Lucia Rios: Yeah, I mean it was, it was hard because I was, because you know you dream of all these things when you are young and you know, you talk with your friends and say, “oh you know, you’re gonna have kids…” and oh! I’m sorry! You’re a boy… and girls having periods and… (laughter) that type of thing and I didn’t have those. You know, those types of things just made me feel a little bit more different, you know, kind of like not as part of the group of people. So… Ryan: How do you feel, because I know you said that from the get go, you said that in middle school that was when you could really tell that you, that you felt different? Lucia Rios: Mhmmm. Ryan: Are you thankful that for that? Do you think that helped you in any way? Lucia Rios: Yeah, I mean… Ryan: Are you able to see things from a different point of view? Lucia Rios: Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s ok. It depends on the day, but yeah. For the most part, my attitude is I really believe that I am a spiritual person, you know, but I believe that there is a reason for my, you know, having a disability. Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: You know, especially, because you know, with my four siblings, I was the only one that actually went to college and graduated from high school without having children. A lot of my sib… my cousins all had kids right away. So, I was the one who actually followed their dream of what they wanted to do and I think that if I didn’t, if I didn’t have the disability I wouldn’t be, you know, know that I really love writing. I wouldn’t, ummm, be as sensitive to other people as well. Ummm, and also, wouldn’t use my mind to get myself to different places, and also, yeah. I mean, because I would be like, kind of how my, my family is from generations has been working in a factory, hating my job, you know, that stuff. Bethanie: Mhhmmm. Page 10 �Lucia Rios: So I think that I had to use my mind more than I had to use anything else because I knew that I couldn’t just go into the factory and get a job. Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, to me, it seems like it’s a bit of a blessing. Lucia Rios: Yeah, I do believe that. And people think it’s kind of… people wonder why. People ask, “if you had a magic pill, would you change it?” and I’m like, “I don’t know if I would” because it’s given me a lot of opportunities and it would be very, ummm, I think I would be very naïve about the world as well. Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: I mean, I see people at their best and I see people at their worst as far as the way that they treat others. Ummm, I’ve never been discriminated against because of, ummm, being a Mexican. I have been discriminated against a lot because of my disability. So… Sophie: I feel like you are a very strong person. Like you are a person who you are given an opportunity and you actually go after it… Lucia Rios: Mhhmmm. Sophie: Was there any point in your life where you, you had, like, a turning point where you had to decide, like, I can either get over it or I can use this, like, in your life? Lucia Rios: I mean, yeah. It was, it was actually in college. Sophie: Was it? Lucia Rios: It was. I mean, because I think at that point, you know, don’t get me wrong, I was very independent when I was young. My mom always made sure I was, but I still was very coddled as well. Ummm, you know, I was very, you know, my siblings took care of me, my mom took care of me, ummm, people around me took care of and at that school. So actually, when I went off to college I went to Western University in Kalamazoo, actually, I had to kind of fend for myself. I say it was a real eye opener because I had to get to class by myself in my wheelchair, use transportation, ummm, figure out how I was gonna eat, where I was gonna eat. You know, all of that stuff, and so, I think that was where it was like, I was, I did go through a lot and I won’t lie a lot of depression during that time (laughter) you know, like any student. But, I think that especially, and I kind of joked, that was when I kind of blamed God, you know because I was still trying to figure out, I mean, especially with all, I mean high school, I was so glad Page 11 �to get out of high school, but college is such a different story. I mean, you still try to fit in and you’re not the ideal looking person like everyone else is blonde haired and blue eyed. (Laughter) Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: I mean, it’s just not, there’s so much people look at you and they are like, “Oh my gosh!” You know, where as, you know, and I joke around with my nephew because you know, he’s a teenager now and we talk about how people treat other people. And I say, “you know what?” I said, “I’m like ‘F’-ed up on the outside , you know…” (Laughter) Lucia Rios: And that’s what I say, “that’s how some people feel on the inside. So mine is on the outside, I can’t hide it, you know.” And he’s like, “no, you’re not.” But I think it’s kind of funny because it’s true. It’s like people can see it. I can’t hide anything, where as, other people can hide what they are feeling or how they feel or how they feel that they look, you know. So, ummm, yeah, college was that time where I was I had to come to terms with it. And finally, and a friend actually told me, he was like, “you have it. You need to deal with it.” And he didn’t have a disability and he was like, “you need to get over it already!” (Gasp. Laughter) Sophie: Really? Wow. Lucia Rios: Yeah, you either dwell on it forever or you need to accept it. So I had to accept it. And so, it was hard. It is not like I did it over night. I wrote a lot of sad poetry and I wrote a lot of blogging. And I did all that stuff. I did blogging before it was cool. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: So, you know, but I mean, I was a journaler so I’d write a lot and so now I look back at my, my, at those journals and I’m like, “Oh my gosh! I was so depressed!” (Laughter) Bethanie: Awwww…. Lucia Rios: But you know, it helped me though. It helped me know and to be not afraid to express how I feel. And I think I try to do that when I talk to people, especially other’s with disabilities or people to try to help them understand about disabilities is that it’s not ummm, I’m not gonna try to hide how I felt. Page 12 �You know, I’m not this, you know, I know people have the impression that people with disabilities as 1.) either very bitter, mean, (Laughter) don’t want any help. Or they see them as you know, like super gimp, like someone who is just like an inspiration, over come the odds, all of that stuff. But you know, I feel like I’m kind of in the middle. I’m like I have these different things that I’ve dealt with but I also, I’m just trying to live my life. And so, you know, so, you know, when people talk to me, when I talk to people about it, I tell them how what I’ve experienced and stuff because I’m not gonna pretend like I was happy all the time to have it because I wasn’t. And I think if you talk to a lot of different people with disabilities, even hidden disabilities… Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: People will tell you that it’s not easy and there is an internal struggle. And so, I mean, and like I said, some days I, I still get annoyed and I still get upset but sometimes, it’s those constant things like, you know five people asking if I need help just as I’m walking down the sidewalk. Bethanie: Mmhhmmm. Lucia Rios: Or someone looks at me, and it’s not children that bother me, it’s the adults. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: Or someone will say something like, “Oh you need a snowblower on that thing!” or you know, things like that. Like, seriously?! Those types of things. That’s when it really picks at me and then I’m like, I just wanna… Sophie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: I just wanna get upset but then it’s kind of like, I don’t do it in public if I get upset. But then, I’m usually better afterward so… (25:12) Bethanie: Did you notice once you went to college that it was a little bit more difficult because you weren’t around the same people all the time... Lucia: (Interrupted): Yeah... Bethanie (continued :) Like, you said, like going like though like elementary, middle school, and high school Page 13 �Lucia (Interrupted): Yep Bethanie (continued): You had lots of the same kids Lucia (Interrupted): Yep, Yep Bethanie: So... Lucia: (Interrupted): Yep, same kids, same teachers. And when I went to, um, college I actually experienced discrimination for the first time... (Background): Okay Lucia: And I think that was what, you know, eh, discrimination for the first time but also accessibility issues experience like what it was really like to be someone with a disability, trying to be independent. Sophy: Uh-huh Lucia: But, um, you know, the fact that the discrimination was from a professor of mine, my English professor, and Sophy (Interrupted): Really... Lucia: Yeah, so it was really, um, it was really difficult, um, just because, um, he would do it, I don’t know why, I don’t know if he felt uncomfortable with me or what but he would say inappropriate comments to me, uhmm, you know he’d call me crippled, um, he said I had that going against me along with being a woman and a minority. You know, things like that, um he would say things about my, about the things I wrote as well, as far as like, writing about my disability even though this class was like an English 101 class and we were supposed to write about you know, what it, it was my first semester, like what it, write about what it was like to be away from home. Sophy (Interrupted): um-hum Lucia: You know so things like that, so you know. So um, he’d do a lot of it in private, cause he’d always wanna meet, he was kinda a weird guy. He’d always want to meet with his students in private for meetings and so he’d always want to do it in private. He’d write on my papers different things saying that I was trapped in a mental wheelchair, you know, things like that. It was just really weird and so actually, it actually helped me though. I, um, didn’t let him continue to do that, and it was through the Page 14 �help of another friend who encouraged me, and we actually went to the head of the English Department to talk about him, and what he was doing and I brought her all the evidence and everything. And... Sophy (Interrupted): That’s really good... Lucia (continued): And so, I was glad that I didn’t let that get me um, I didn’t let him continue to get me like that, um, I still went through the class, um you know, I got a C in the class and I felt like it wasn’t the dis- grade I deserved, so I ended up taking the class by a different professor the next semester and I got an A. (Giggles) Lucia: So I mean, you know, but I think that was actually helpful because I don’t think I would have known about advocacy for myself because I had never had to do it myself. Sophy (Interrupted) um-hum Lucia: Um, because my friend went with me but she didn’t talk for me, she didn’t do it for me; she just could see what it was doing to me and what it was like... (Interrupted): yeah... Lucia: Um, so I think that was the part, and the thing is that wasn’t just, because at first I thought I was just being sensitive, but um, other people in the class were noticing it, as well because he would also say something’s in class and they would say something to me like, “what is he doing?”. So then I knew, “Okay, well then, it’s not just me” type of thing, but you know my mom at that time, um, she really missed me and she kind of, in that too, she really was a caretaker of me, and so she would encourage me to come home, “oh, it’s okay, you tried, come home” you know and I didn’t let you know because a lot of the time I wanted to, but I didn’t let it though, (Interrupted): um-hmm Lucia: …and I’m glad I didn’t though you know. And so after that first semester, I started doing more on campus, getting more involved, um, kind of being more, looking out more for barriers, and writing about what barriers people with disabilities faced. So... Bethanie: Did you find, like what sort of barriers did you like, face like, as far as accessibility and stuff Lucia :( Interrupted): Yep, eh Page 15 �Bethanie (continued)...In college? Lucia: Um, you know, um buildings you know Western was really old. Some of the places were old, some of the buildings that lacked accessibility, elevators that weren’t’ working so sometimes I couldn’t even get to my classes, um, you know the automatic door openers were broken, and that wasn’t like necessarily I wasn’t upset about that because of me but then I started meeting other people with disabilities and realizing some of the limitations that others had as well. Like one of my friends, who has othoratory arthritis, and I’m still friends with her today, and she um, if the button wasn’t working she had to wait outside for someone to open it for her. Rain, snow, sunshine, whatever (Background): um-hum Lucia: And that frustrated me and angered me more than myself not going and being able to go and open it myself because I had the strength to open it she physically couldn’t go over there and do that. So that’s kind of what, what I did, um like what prompted me to get more involved and um, I started, um and was really um, the person from the disable student services at Western, she knew me very well.. (Laugh) (Background laughing along) Lucia: Um because I would call there and she then she would give me numbers to call if like people to fix things and stuff like that. Snow removal was a big thing, not just for students who, I mean for any student who, I mean for everyone, it was a big deal but especially if you had to use a wheelchair, crutches or something like that so... Bethanie: Were your classes really spaced out? I mean I know Grand Valley sometime, I complain about a ten minute walk and then like if you have to go from like mackinaw to the ones on the far side... Lucia: Yeah Bethanie: Like Lake Ontario... Lucia: Yep... Bethanie: Or whatever, in the snow. Is it spread out? Page 16 �Lucia: Luckily is it, luckily I was able to use the disabilities services, which I didn’t even know that there were places like that which helped people with disabilities until I got to college. Um they, I was able to register early so that I could space out, get my classes the way that I needed them... (Interrupted): okay... Lucia: So I could get to class to class in time. So it was kinda nice so I didn’t have to take the morning classes... (Laughing) (Laughing in agreement) Lucia: You know the Friday 8 AM things like that. But it also helped me so I knew how much time I had to get to class, but like sometimes, in some of the buildings, the bathrooms weren’t accessible so I would have to go before I went to class, and if you had a three hour class, or two hour class, I mean Sophy (interrupted): Oh, that‘s a, long time.. Ryan (Interrupted): You could be uncomfortable. Lucia: Yeah, exactly, so things like that and you know my degree um, I was going into Journalism, so I had a lot of writing classes, so what I would do was um, when we were able to pick issues, I would write about accessibility because I thought, “well I can’t just complain about it, I need to educate others about it”.. (Background): um-hmm Lucia: And so I stated educating others through my writing, through my articles and then they’d say, “What can we do to help?” And I would say, “Call too!”... (Giggles) (Laughing) Lucia: “Here’s the number, say something. It’s, it doesn’t have to be just me doing it”, so. That’s where I started to get more involved in the whole disability movement; I guess you can say (laughing) (Laughing) Bethanie: Um, did you have to do any, like internships for school or like work with any organizations, like um, I know you work with Disability NetLucia (Interrupted): Network, uh-hmm Page 17 �Bethanie: …now how did yo- how did you get connected to something like that outside of school? Lucia: Okay, well you know when I was in school, I did this really big paper about accessibility in Kalamazoo and I was a- actually a- able to connect, because Disability Network is based on what’s called a Center for Independent Living so there are about 5 to 6 hundred throughout the United States. Bethanie: OK. Lucia: And so everywhere you go, you can contact your local, CIL, that’s what they call them. And so it actually started back in the 70’s in Berkley, California and kinda like just spread across the, the whole united states, and um, helping people in different, different types of people access the different resources that may- that they nee- may need, whether it’s employment, whether its housing, whether its nursing, getting out of nursing homes. You know that’s kinda the big- where it started at. You know people were um, in Berkley there, they weren’t able to go to school or they weren’t able to live in the dorms and they were forced to live sometimes in nursing homes, they didn’t have a tenant care. So that’s kinda how it all started with these individuals with really significant disabilities. Like I’m talking like people that were paralyzed from the, you know, from the head down, that started that because they wanted the same rights as people without disabilities on campus. And so it just turned into this whole big movement that is still, goes on today, and um, like in Michigan there are about 14 centers for independent living. One actually is in, um, Kent County which is Disability Advocates of Kent County. And so each Center for Independent Living focuses on their own ar-areas, so our, ours is Ottawa, Allegan Counties... (Background): okay Lucia: Um, you know Kalamazoo has one where they focus on some of their counties, so um, you know were not like territorial, we’re not like, “Oh, we’re better than you” ..(Laughing) (Laughing) Lucia: But, each community is just different, as far as what there, there need is. Um we do a lot in our organization for community work that is not just good for people with disabilities; it’s good for the whole community. Whereas, in Kalamazoo, they do a lot of case management with some of their, their clients, because that’s what’s needed there. Page 18 �(Mumbling) Lucia: So it really depends but um, actually when I had that paper, I um, found out about the Center for Independent Living in Kalamazoo and I had never heard of it, um and I was like maybe a junior when I first found out about it, so it was like, you know it as like small steps... (Agreeing): Hmm-hmm Lucia: Um, but then I also found another group actually that um, was a, a group that started in Kalamazoo that they helped people with disabilities and they, you know, they helped with certain basic needs, but also worked as advocates as well, and I can’t remember what the name is now, but I know that I um, stayed- I went there for a whole day, interviewed them all and just like, was so like, “WOW“ you know , people actually do this.. Um, so it’s- but I got my job is um, though, when I was in high school, I- one of these, (stutter) I was(Giggle) Lucia: There’s an article written about me about overcoming the odds, type of article you know, people write those as far as like, “so and so was homeless and still they- and still they went to school”. You know mine was, “She had a disability and she’s going to college now” so that was what the article was. So, the same writer who wrote about me when I was in high school, um, was looking for Thanksgiving Day stories because I graduated in December, um o I went to school for 4 and a half years and so she was looking for Thanksgiving Day stories, and so one of my, like she’s like my second mother, works in the school district in Holland, and she saw the e-mail and said, “Oh My Gosh, you need to write about so and so” you know, that type of thing, and the woman’s like “oh I remember her, I wrote her in high school”.. (Giggles) Lucia: So she thought she’d write an article about, “oh, a girl who overcomes the odds” you know “from high school and graduated from college now and an aspiring journalist” and you know that type of thing. So she wrote this article and actually it was kinda cool cause a photographer followed me around and um, you know she talked to teachers, she talked to different people. You know it was just a really big article and it was really nice ad it ran in the Kalamazoo Kazett and the Holland um- The Grand Rapids Press, but at the time, they had a Lakeshore Edition, when you know when the newspapers were a little bit more thriving …(laughing) Page 19 �Sophy (Agreeing): uh-hmm Lucia: And had a Lakeshore Edition that went all around the Lakeshore. Well the executive director in it, she talked about how my- I was advocating for accessibility on campus and how I was involved in student council and how you know, I kind of, got my voice though school, and was very passionate about people with disabilities and that I and that I had my own disabilities as well. Well the executive director saw it and um, for Disability Network, and she called me as I was working one day at school an said, “So, uh, we have an opening for a job, would you like an interview?” and I was like “Sure, why not.” (Giggles) Lucia: Because I didn’t have anything going on at the time, you know I was just ready to be done with school then I was just going to focus on, what next because at the time, I still needed to get my license... Because I was waiting until I was done with school to get my license and you know all that stuff, so I was waiting until all that was done. So I got a job- well I uh, interviewed two times and she offered me a part time position doing accessibility work in Holland- and Ottawa and Allegan counties. And so that’s kinda how I started and I’ve kinda been there- I started part time but then um, was also able to work at the Newspaper as well, the Grand Rapids Press for a short time, um. So I was doing both jobs, taking drivers training, I finally learned how to drive, which is good. And then um, I took it in Grand Rapids, so um, (laughing) (Laughing) Lucia: It was horrible, but- and I drive with hand control, so I was able- that gave me more independence. And so I was working both jobs and my boss at Disability Networks, said “I’d really would like you full time” and I said, “well, no I can’t” cause I wanted to do both. Writing was my first love and so I thought “no I can’t” but then, that, that desire to do more in the community um, was so great that, the second time she asked me, I said “ok”. Sophy: Hm-hum Lucia: And since I’ve been full time, and I’ve been there now, 9 years. Bethanie: That’s a long time... Lucia: Yeah...it’s a long time... (Interrupted laughter) Page 20 �Lucia: I know... Ryan: time flies by... Lucia: It does yeah, and the thing is, through that I’ve actually been able to do um, I’ve seen community change. I mean, accessibility, it can take years... Sophy: Mm-hmm Lucia: Forum, um, to be completed. But for people to finally get- oh yeah that’s a good idea, uum. So I’ve been able to see the change happen, but also, um because of the opportunity, I found out so much more about disability um, his-the history, but also what’s going on in the state of Michigan, regarding um, the disability rights movement and how-you know, I was excited when you sent the e-mail to me because that’s kind of something people don’t think about right away.. Sophy: Hm-hmm Lucia: They see the oh, there’s the civil rights, which the disability rights movement spawned off the Civil Rights, you know the whole, with that all came, you know so. Um then of course, the LGBTQ movement, all that stuff then they have the Woman’s Lib type stuff. But disability is just a little, little thing that people just don’t think about, but there have been a lot of big- great strides, but there’s still a lot more that needs to be done. Um, so I was excited to be involved in that, and um, you know and I mean I was still happy to do my writing thing but just in a different capacity, so. Bethanie: Um, did you find it, um, more enjoyable, err, um, exciting because it was happening in your home community Lucia: Yeah Bethanie: Like in Holland… Lucia: Yeah Bethanie: Or in that area where you grew up? Lucia: Yeah. I was, I was excite because um, you know I came back um, and left like a little girl, you know and not really knowing anything and then I came back um, with just, um, so much desire to change the world, you know I mean, and especially my community. And I had a voice too, like I wasn’t afraid to speak my mind, I wasn’t worried about what people would think, um, so I think that was, um, that that Page 21 �was the change as well, but I was able to um, yeah that made it exciting that I was able to um, that I was part of this bigger movement than just- you know I felt like I had a purpose in some of it. That I could educate people, and that’s actually what my job, I’m able to do a lot of education and teach students about um, disabilities, employment. I work a lot with youth and disabilities you know, um ad so you know I do a lot just to educate so, um, educating just by giving presentations to people all in business suits and stuff. And it feels good to be the person people look to for answers in that respect, you know, because you know, they actually want to know what you have to say. Where before I hated speech class, I hated talking in front of people; I could never do it. Because I thought my voice wasn’t, didn’t matter. It gave me more of a purpose. Bethanie: Do you like getting or interviewing, err, not interview um, presenting and talking to kids more or like people in like what you said, in business suits... Lucia: Yeah... Bethanie: Like what did you find more enjoyable? Lucia: I um, I really liked the teenagers, um, and that’s what I work a lot with. I have a program, we call it the um, the Yes Program. What it is, is it teaches children how to get and keep jobs, um, art-particularly kids with disabilities. Um, and a lot of them, you know adults; you know are kinda setting their ways, so they’re- they are scared, of the unknown. Whereas teenagers, especially, the teenagers who we deal with are more the rougher, at risk kids, they will accept you for who you are right away. If you’re open with them, they’ll be open with you, and so right away I just come out and say, “Alright, I’m in a wheel chair” you know, “this is what- why it is, if you have any questions, let me know, but make sure you ask questions that you wouldn’t mind answering too”. And so that usually clears it up and then they have that respect and they, you know, its not- they never- it’s never brought up again. Whereas adults (chuckles)... (Laughing) Lucia: It’s a bit different. You know, as far as, they’re still not sure if they should ask me the question or they say inappropriate things or if they should avoid me because they don’t you know- or some of them get really excited about it and say “oh my gosh, thank you so much for teaching me this”, so. I’d say I enjoy the teen a lot more but I don’t mind the adults. I think some of the time I think it’s funny because some of the things that come out of their mouths (chuckles) Page 22 �(Laughing) Lucia: And then it’s like, “oh my gosh” so. But yeah I mean I just like educating people about differences because I think everyone’s different, but um, you know. And some of it seems so common sense too Sophy: Yeah Lucia: But people need that I guess (chuckle) Bethanie: Did you have a certain mentor who educated you, as far as like certain things you can do to be more active, err... Lucia (Interrupted): Well, IBethanie (Finishing): or encouraged you to go to school or things like that? Lucia: Yeah, I mean growing up I um, there was a, a, a woman I still- her name’s Ellen Westvier and she um, was a social worker through the Holland Public Schools, and they made me talk to her , like when I was like in 3rd grade, because I didn’t talk, or I wouldn’t talk to them or I wouldn’t tell them what I needed so they were afraid that my needs weren’t being met because they wanted to make sure I was okay in the classroom and all that stuff. Sophy: Hm-hmm Lucia: So they made me talk to her and stuff because they thought, “okay, maybe she needs you know, some help with that” and we actually just you know- she actually treats me like her daughter now and she’s like my second mother. And, but she really, um always encouraged me growing up and you know, we talked about the disability as well and um, I still- I still see her as a mentor, you know she is successful in her career and so she just you know she just encouraged me you know when my mom said, “oh, come home” Ellen would say, “You better not go home!”.. (Laughing) Lucia: You know, type of thing, “no!” you know, that type of thing. So as far as disabilities, I’m just really encouraged and inspired, and I hate that word, “inspired” but it’s true. By other people with disabilities have done so much more than even, anything that I’ve done. I mean I’ve been able, through this job I’ve been able to meet a lot of different people because through conferences or through the state, um, and I’m on different committees, so I’ve been able to meet a lot of other people with disabilities who have, Page 23 �you know, just a feel of don’t so much. And that really encourages me as well, you feel some sort of connection as well, but understanding too... Sophy: Uh-huh Lucia: You know, where there’s disability conferences, I’m so excited to go to some of them because it’s almost like going to summer camp. You know, you go to summer camp, and everyone’s like you… Sophy: Yeah Lucia: … And you talk about the same thing; you don’t have to worry about anything. It’s kinda like that, and so... Sophy: That’s really good Lucia: And I never had that before, um growing up, you know. Ryan: not at all, being... Lucia: So... Ryan: Being a minority... Lucia : (Interrupted) yeah Ryan: like it, mi-mi- minority in the sense that whi- you know with the disability whereas the majority of people do not have disabilities... Lucia: Yeah, exactly... Ryan: you know eh, it- like you said, being around people that, you have not similar interests to but you share characteristics of... Lucia: Yep exactly, yeah. You do yeah, and it- It’s fun too, when you go to these, like we all went- there was a conference, it’s the Adiam Symposium, which I’ve gone a few times and it was in Las Vegas... (Laughing) Lucia: It was like, it was so fun though because there were so many people, and it’s like disability galore there! Page 24 �(Laughing) Lucia: It cool, it’s like we just- you hang out, you just get to know people, you hang out with them you get to know them, you meet them, and you still connect. And so at the conference it’s like every otheryou know it’s just normal to see someone walking with a cane and someone who’s blind walking together talking. You know it’s just normal to see someone in a wheel chair and someone without in a wheelchair talking together you know. And I’m just- when I-you know some of us had talked about, i wonder what people must think, especially these visitors from the other- other countries... (laughing) (Everyone laughing) Sophy: yeah. Lucia (continued): ...like oh my gosh, Las Vegas is like, (laughing)... there's a lot of people there like that... you know so. But it’s fun though because you know, you know when you're with people that youi don’t if any of you guys are in sororitiesSophy (agreeing): Mm-hmm, yep... Lucia (continued): or fraternities Ryan (interrupted): different groups and organizations... Lucia (continued): different groupsRyan: yeah... Lucia (continued): Okay, and how you feel some sort of connection with those people Sophy (agreeing): Oh yeah... Lucia: Um, its kinda like that, and you don't care what anyone thinks, you just are together and err, it's kinda like, so.. Sophy: its' kinda like unity, like with- power from unity... Lucia (interrupted): yeah, exactly, yeah so... but it’s also kinda fun to see peoples looks too... and everything like that so(Background): yeah... Page 25 �Lucia: yeah, so... Sophy: I’m curious, um, you seem like really really busy and like, okay by yourself but do you think you have any disconnect from like, your personal life? LikeLucia: Oh, (laughing) Sophy: Or I mean, likeLucia: well you know, I (laughing)... (All together laughing) Lucia: I think I do really keep busy, you know, and i, i ha- I actually... (Laughing) (All together laughing) Sophy: sorry (laughing) Lucia: oh no, no it's fine. It’s funny because my family tells me all the time that like, 'we never hear from you...” (Together laughing) Lucia (continued): you know. "You’re always so busy" and I am, I-I think I get bored if I’m not... busy... Sophy (agreeing): Mm-hmm Lucia (continued): like, i-i- have to do things, like um; right now I do freelance writing too... (Agreeing): Mm-hmm... Lucia (continued): you know... (Laughing) (Group laughs) Lucia: I do that stuff to you know you, I like to be involved in the community, and I like to spend a lot of time with my nieces and nephews for now, getting to be teenagers. And i did have, for a while there, for like four years, i had uh- I was in a relationship. You know, but unfortunately that didn't- we didn't um, you know... Sophy (agreeing): yeah... Page 26 �Lucia (continued): work out, but... um, I don't know, i mean I’m just always- I’m very social, so i always wanna be out and about and meeting new people and doing things. So, but yeah that is something that I do need to work on too, is just... Sophy (interrupted): balancing... Lucia (continued): Balancing it, yeah. Because sometimes i think it’s so run down... (Background): yeah... Lucia: ... and my sisters are like, "oh my gosh you need to stop, you're so busy"... (Group laughs) Lucia: but i think that um, i don't know if it feels like um, it gives me purpose, or I’m trying like- and i-I thought about this too, when I was little, people would say, 'oh you can't do that' and I would say, 'oh wanna see me?' and I’d do it.. (Group laughs) Lucia: and i don't know if i still have that mentality, where people say, 'oh, you can't do that' and I'd say, 'well, yeah wanna see me?'... (Group laughs) Lucia: so i think some of that is still there, you know as far as that... Sophy (agreeing :) yeah Lucia (continue)... so yeah. Yeah. Bethanie: As far as giving you a purpose, um, do you-I know you said earlier like, err, you're very spiritual and stuff... Lucia (agreeing): mm-hmm Bethanie (continue): like how does- how do you think that connects into how you've dealt with it... Lucia: yeah... Bethanie: or how you've, accepted it or how you've uh, you're going to uh, do good things and like... Page 27 �Lucia: yeah... Bethanie: advocate for it instead of being bitter about it... Lucia: mm-hmm, yeah. Bethanie: or mad or angry like you said. Lucia: well i think that like, I-I without, you know, without... because i think if i didn't have like some sort of spiritual, or if i didn't believe that there was a purpose, I wouldn't- I wouldn't probably wanna exist. (Background): mm-hmm Lucia: You know, because like i had said before, disabilities is very difficult because, um, more of it is other people, and the way that they see you, um and those things, and how they can really affect you, and make you really not want to be around.. Bethanie: mm-hmm Lucia: you know, so i think that-I had that hope that there is someday, that I will know, that there is a bigger purpose than just being here. There’s a purpose that He has for me... Bethanie: Mm-hmm Lucia: for the way that this was. because for a while there I drove myself crazy wanting to know why and that gives me some sort of relieve that I will know eventually and If i didn't, i would like very, yeah. Like i said I would s - yeah... (Bethanie laughs) Lucia: you know i also feel it because you know a lot of people- my mom said that, 'you wouldn't live overnight', 'you wouldn't live here', 'you wouldn't live to be a teenager', 'you wouldn't live this-' and finally they said, 'oh i think she's okay now'. (Group chuckle) Lucia: you know also, I guess um, yeah i don't know, I just, um just the feeling too. You know ju-just knowing that... I just feel... I just feel it-I don't know how to explain it... Ryan (interrupted): being fulfilled? Page 28 �Lucia: Yeah, i guess being fulfilled... Ryan: (interrupted): being rewarded... Lucia: Yeah... Ryan: by what you do... Lucia: Yeah, and I guess, I guess, like I said, if i didn't have that hope that someday I will know, then we all-because we all wanna know, what’s your purpose'.. Bethanie: mm-hmm, right... Lucia: what’s your purpose, what do you- what's why? You know and if i didn't have that I would be you know... (Group agrees): yeah... Lucia: I would be so... I would not wanna... exist. Bethanie: Did you find your spiritual community to be more encouraging or discouraging because I know you said, 'if you prayed for her, then she'd be healed', err, other things like that? Lucia: yeah that's always been something because I was born and raised Catholic, but I-I don't practice Catholicism, which my mom’s like, 'what have I done wrong?’... (Group chuckles) Lucia (continues): it’s not like I’m a Satanist or anything... (Laughing) (Group laughs) Lucia: you know I just don't practice Catholicism, you know- you know I’m a Christian, you know but. So anyways, it’s just kinda funny but uh, um, yeah, that’s the struggle too, is that people, um, you know dating back to when I was little um, in my first um, um, what’s that called, um what’s that called, confession, you know where the-the priest said, you know I told him what I’d done, i don't remember i was like eight or nine, you know.. (Laughing) (Group laughs) Page 29 �Lucia: and he said, he seemed so, just very like, disappointed and he said, 'don't you want to walk with god in heaven?' And i didn't walk, the regular way, and that really upset me because what are you saying because that- he told me I wasn't going to walk with God when I went to heaven. You know, that type of thing because I didn't even know if after this life, if like i said, you know, I am fine in a wheelchair in crutches, I get around, i move around, that type of thing. Um, I’ve never wanted to walk regularly, i guess, you know cause I can; i just do it in a different way. Um, but um, i know people have said, 'do you think you'll be healed in Heaven' or 'what’s healing like?' 50:30 Lucia: “…with God? In heaven? And I didn’t walk, like the regular way, and that really upset me because I’m like, uh, what are you saying? You know, that lie that I told? That I’m not going to get to walk in heaven? You know, that type of thing. Thinking that, you know, cuz I don’t even know if after this life, if, you know, like I said, you know, I am fine in a wheel chair or in crutches, I get around, I move around, that type of thing, um, you know, I’ve never wanted to walk regularly, I guess. Bethanie: Mhm Lucia: You know, I mean, cuz I can, I just do it in a different way, um, but,um, you know, I know people have said, do you think you’ll be healed in heaven? Or what’s healing like? And that’s really what’s really something where I, um, the church I used to go to, people would constantly ask me if I wanted to get, if they could pray for my healing, and that annoys me cuz it’s like, well what’s wrong with me? God made me in his image, right? Bethanie: Mhm Lucia: We’re all in his image. But, you’re saying that I need to be healed, from what? You know? So I think that’s where, that’s where I’m conflicted, as far as, you know, spiritually, I know where I’m at and I, I read the bible, I do devotions, I do that type of thing, but as far as other people and how they are, um, in that context, in a spiritual, in church, and stuff like that, um, they make you feel like you are, um, because you know, God would want you to be healed, because, um, He does it in the bible, but you know also, He needed to show His power and part of that was through people, I don’t know necessarily, I think that if God wanted me healed, He would heal me, right now. Bethanie: Right. Page 30 �Lucia: But that’s not what He has in mind for me, so… Ryan: And that doesn’t take away from what kind of person you are, the things you do… Lucia: No, yeah. Ryan: Cuz it hasn’t stopped you yet, I mean. Lucia: Exactly, so yeah, I think that, I think that’s a big issue that I have with the church (group laughter) and stuff is people want to heal you, they think that something is wrong with you. Um, I’ve had people come up to me, one woman came up to me in Target one time, and I was shopping by myself, and she comes up and she says, “Can I pray for you?”, and I don’t mind if people want to pray for me, or I pray for people, whatever, um, but, you know, at that point, I’m like, what gives you the right to do that to me? And other people were like, looking to see what I’d say, and I said, “Why?”. You know, and that was the first time I had ever stuck for myself, like, why? Instead of saying, “oh, no thanks” or “okay”, you know, cuz that’s uncomfortable, you know? Um, and she went on in this long story about how she was diagnosed with, I don’t know if it was like, MS, and how she, um, had, um, people pray for her, and then she was healed, and she didn’t have to use a wheel chair and all this other stuff. So she would like to pray for me, and I told her, “No”. And she looked at me like I had slapped her. Like, I had offended HER. And she left, and I’m like, seriously? Why would you do that? I mean, you know, you say you’re some, you know, person who wants to pray for people, but then I was thinking, why not her, over there? She might be struggling with something. And you’re not asking her, you’re asking me, because of the way that I look. When really, I was fine, you know, going about my day. So, those types of things happen. Um, you know, people who say, “I’m going to pray for your healing” and point to my legs. And I’m like, that’s not what…that’s not what needs to be healed, it’s more inside that needs to be healed. It’s not the legs. It’s not the, so I can run around. It’s other things. And so I think people don’t understand, people don’t understand that, and that’s what bugs me a lot. And so, I don’t, you know, ‘the healing’… I hate the healing thing, cuz I’m just like, if He wanted me to be healed, He’d make me….He makes me the way that He wants me to me. Bethanie: Right, it’s not going to be because you – Lucia: Pray hard enough. Bethanie: Yes. Page 31 �Lucia: And it’s, yeah. I mean, so, that’s something that I struggle with a lot in college too, as far as that whole, you know, wanting to know why, kind of, and I think everyone struggles with that spiritually. You know, I don’t think it’s uncommon. Bethanie: Mhm Lucia: Um, but we all have our different ways of doing it, you know, and, um, you know, and I believe that He told it to me through a dream, actually. I hope I don’t sound crazy, but, when I was growing up, until I got to college, November, in college, cuz I wrote about it, and I remember the day that I woke up, and um, I always dreamed of myself walking, and doing all that stuff, and, um, I woke up one morning and I had dreamed of myself in a wheel chair. And ever since that day in November, uh, when I was a freshman, I never dreamed of myself walking ever again. I’ve always been in a wheel chair or on crutches. So, it’s just kind of interesting how, and it’s weird, how it’s changed, like that. Ryan: Was that a good day for you? Lucia: Yeah, I was like, oh my gosh! Ryan: Yeah, it seemed like it would be… Lucia: It was. I was really surprised. I never noticed it until then (group says, “mhm”). And it’s not like I wanted myself to sleep so I could dream of myself walking. It was just something that happened. So then all of a sudden that day I woke up and I was like, “oh my gosh”, I’ve never dreamed of myself not being in a wheel chair or crutches again. So it’s kind of, I don’t know, some of that stuff is, you know, and I think everything, its, its all, there’s a purpose. So. Bethanie: Did you find it different, I know, like, I don’t know the Kalamazoo area very well, but I know, like, how Holland, like, Ottawa county is very famous for the religious community, so, did you find a lot more people asking you, um, up here, rather than down there? Or was it about the same? Or? Lucia: No, it’s in the area. You know, in Holland, that area, and even in Grandville area, that type of thing, but um, I used to go to church in Grandville, so that’s kind of what, yeah. But in Holland, I mean, it’s very, you know, reformed Christian, and all that stuff, um, and just very…s…strict. But I also think that, I don’t know, I think its hard, I think its hard for a person with a disability to understand the reason’s why, but I can’t imagine what it’s like for other people to want to know why too, you know? Outside, kinda like, why? But um, you know, I guess, like I said before, I just feel like I’m beating a dead Page 32 �horse sometimes, cuz I say, you know, I’m the one that lives with it, and other people are so bothered by it. But I’m the one that lives with it. You know? Why does it bother other people so much? It’s my… it’s mine to deal with. Like, my cross to bear, or whatever you say, but I mean, that’s kind of what annoys me the most and what makes me upset. Is that other people are more upset by the way that I look or the way that I was born than I am. (silence), and you know, I think I just want to know why. (laughter) you know, I mean, I guess I don’t know, I mean, it’s not like, I know other people get jealous of each other, it’s not that though. It’s more, “you’re different, and you shouldn’t be that way”, and so, how would that make you feel? If someone constantly told you and let you know how different you were, and why were you like that? How do you think that would affect your self esteem? And your ego? And everything? Effect you as a person? To say, oh, maybe I’m not worthy, maybe I’m not like that person, so, it does eat at you, and I’m like, you know what I mean, I am, I try to be a very positive person, but, you know, like I said, somedays, you just can’t be positive. And usually those days I’m just quieter. I write, I journal a lot, or I talk to someone, or I just you know, just do something productive. Ryan: Very therapeutic. Lucia: Yeah, yup, exactly, and I think I feel it a lot more because I work in the disability community too, cuz I have to live it, but I also have to work with it, so sometimes it can be overwhelming and sometimes I just have to take time to do anything not disability related and do something different. Bethanie: Do you think that’s part of the reason why you started doing more free lance writing again so you have a little bit of a break sometimes? Lucia: Yeah, I think so. Bethanie: What sort of things do you write about when you do free lance writing? Lucia: Okay. Well, I work for a marketing company, and it’s all internet blogging and website content, so I write for doctors, um, in particular, pediatrists (laughter) Ryan: Pediatrists are what kind of doctor? Lucia: Foot doctors (laughter) Ryan: Oh, okay (laughter) Page 33 �Lucia: And, um, some CPA’s and things like that. So, um, yeah, I do all that, which, which is nice cuz it’s different and I’m still kind of getting my fill with the writing, I do writing at my job, too, but its more like, writing down about accessibility and disability related, so yeah, I mean, it’s different, I like it. Bethanie: Do you have to do writing for grants for your job? Lucia: Um no, not anymore. I used to have to do it a little bit, but, um, no, usually, um, you know, whoever’s taking on that particular program does grants do I don’t have to do that as much. A lot of my stuff has been the same for years, it’s just…I’m able to tweak up what I do. Kind of, yeah, so its glad (laughter) cuz then usually they’re looking for, “sorry, needy” “we need this help to do this” and so… Ryan: You were never like that in the get go, so that kind of goes against you’re whole positive ‘this is for a reason’ mentality. Lucia: Yeah, yeah, I mean… Ryan: Which is why I feel that personally, but I feel like everybody could be a better person… not … I guess just accept things the way they are and be positive, you know? Share experiencesLucia: Yeah, and just learn from each other. You know, I think, I try to look at people, cuz I want people to look at me with, and see the person first, you know, and that’s what we talk about in first language in the disability community, you know, but that’s how everyone wants people to see them, as the person, not what you look like, or how you dress, or who you dated— Ryan: The shoes you’re wearing Lucia: Yeah! You want people to look at you as a person first. So I try to do that to others, too, how would they, who are they as a person? Not necessarily what they look like, or how they act, and um, you know, and so I try to base it off of that and if I find that they’re weird then it’s different, ya know? (group laughter), but I mean, it’s just, you know, that’s a different story, but, you know, I guess, I always encourage you to do that too, look at the person first, don’t look at everything else, the exterior, because it’s all inside. Which is true, and a lot of times people, um, you know, I mean, I’m a magnet for weirdo’s, you know, cuz people, I don’t know if it’s because of the disability that people feel like they don’t have to have their guard up as much, but um, sometimes, I get people, nice people, coming up and sharing their stories with me, or wanting to talk to me, or ask me questions, and then I get some weird Page 34 �people too. But, um, you know, and I think part of that is because, you know, they don’t feel like, I’m not this, I guess, outside you can tell that I’m not, I’m, um… Ryan: …Judgemental? Lucia: No, maybe broken? You can tell that I’m not the norm. Something different. So they feel like they don’t have to have their façade up, so. And I think that’s cuz, I’ve had people tell me that too. Like, I don’t feel like, I don’t feel intimidated by you. Ryan: Right, like I can share anything with you. Lucia: (laughs) Right, like sometimes that’s too much. Ryan: Because if you can do it, and if you can make it this far, and you can be this happy, and feel this rewarded….hey, maybe I can share my experiences and we can learn from each other. That is very important Bethanie: Do… I know you talked earlier about um, I didn’t write down her name, but ‘wesveer’….? Lucia: Yep! Ellen Westveer. Bethanie: Um, do you have someone you feel like you mentor too? Like, you um, talk with them, especially the kids in school and stuff? Lucia: Yeah, um I guess not one in particular that I can think of, but you know, I’m always willing to talk to students, like, I create friendships with students, as far as, like, you know… as far as like I have students coming in and saying, ‘hey, I just got this job’, or ‘hey I need to talk’, or um, you know sometimes we’ll meet up for dinner or something like that, so , I try to be encouraging to those others around me, um, you know and try not to ‘save’ people either as far as like, I wanna help but not to the point where I’m enabling them, or coddling them, because I mean, I’m like that with people with or without disabilities, too. It’s like, I’m not gonna do something for you that you can’t do for yourself. You know? I mean, so , um, but, you know, no one that I know, I mean, that I can think of, you know, I’m just, I just, you know… but I guess that’s not unusual for me to come into work and say, ‘oh I took one of my teen’s out to dinner’ or ‘one of my teen’s need to look for interview clothes so I volunteered to take them’… they’re like, ‘oh my gosh! Why would you do that?’ we spent two hours at JCPenney’s looking for interview clothes… so I guess that’s not uncommon that people would find that I did that because, you know, especially if I see like they need someone to talk to, or , you know, I try to share my Page 35 �experiences with them, especially those at risk youth, the ones that are um, you know, doing really bad in school, people have, you know, they have criminal records, stuff like that, um…. Ryan: Or come from broken families… Lucia: Yeah! Broken families! Ryan: These external factors that they don’t have control over Lucia: And say they hey, ‘people said this about me’ but look at what I did with my life, and look, you can do the same. So try to relate it back to them, saying, um, hey, I had a lot of barriers too, but, you know, don’t listen to what other people say, and you know, so…so that type of thing, and I do a lot of that in the class room, and one –on-one, so I don’t know if there is one particular person, but, like I said, I mean, you know, like my co-worker Catherine, she’s always like, “oh my gosh I can’t believe you took that kid out”, you know, and I’m like “well, she needed someone” or you know, or, “I wanted to be nice”, you know. So… Bethanie: Does it ever make you feel like your work never ends? Because, even outside of work, you’re doing things? Lucia: Yeah, it does, I mean sometimes, you know, I guess one of the things is I guess I love spending time with my niece and my nephew, who are teenagers right now, and so um, doing things with them, and one of them, my niece is finally coming around a little bit more. You know, my nephew thinks I’m the coolest person ever, so, I like that, he’s 14 and my niece of course, she’s seventeen, she thinks like, I don’t know anything but she’s coming around a little bit more. But, you know, it’s fun spending time with them and hearing about them, and what they’re doing and being able to share my experiences with them, experiences growing up and stuff like that. So.. .um, yeah, I mean, so … I got that Bethanie: So even mentoring things like that, like, “you should go to school” … Lucia: Yeah, and my niece struggles with that too, so we talk about that and um, what that’s gonna look like for her future, and you know, like, I talk about that generational thing that happens in my family. Her mom had her when she was 15. You know? She is 17 and struggling with certain things, she’s not pregnant, I mean, which is great, but she’s struggling with that teenage ‘stuff’, like, not wanting to go to school, having friends, you know, mom not understanding her. Ryan: Possibly seeking outlets for, you know, frustration and stress. Page 36 �Lucia: Yeah, exactly. So I mean, you know, I try to talk to her about that stuff, and be open about it and stuff, and you know, yeah, and tell her I expect, you know, I expect good things for her, because she’s, you know, a part of my family, you know. So. Yeah I mean, it’s still kind of interesting cuz like, my siblings, um, you know, my sister, my older sister, is trying to go back to school now, which is good, you know, my siter and my other sister, you know, I was the first one in my family from my parents from all sides to get my high school diploma, my college degree from both sides of the family, their grandkids, and they have a lot of, you know, but now other people are starting to get it too, which is cool! So now it’s not like it’s just me, but um, you know, now my mom went back to get her medical assistant, you know, to be a medical assistant, my older sister’s going to college now, my other sister’s going back to get her medical assistant certificate, so I mean now, people, you know, I try to be encouraging to them too. You know, as well, because you know, some of them fell into that hole. You know, have kids right away or go into the factory, or, you know, that type of thing. Ryan: Maybe an unfulfilling job, where as you’re the complete opposite, everything you do is for fulfillment and for this purpose. Lucia: Yeah! And sometimes it gets you know, tiring, but you know, I don’t know, and like I said, if I don’t have something to keep me busy, I get SO bored! (laughter) Like, I can’t just sit still. So, um, but I don’t know, but it does create anxiety as well. And stuff. But. I don’t know. I guess I feel like I just have to , I don’t know, I always, I don’t know, I’m more of the type, I wanna leave this earth knowing I’ve done some good for it. You know, whether it’s just one person or making sure that an automatic door is you know, around, or you know, something, I think we all have a purpose, but I think people aren’t always… Ryan: Proactive? Lucia: Yeah, proactive and trying to go and seek that. And we may never know what it is, I don’t know, I just feel like I can’t… like I just can’t sit around. And I think that it’s because people just expect me to sit around (group laughter). And that might be part of it! Those expectations that people have for me, I mean, cuz people um, growing up, you know, even aunts and uncles, some of them, you know, are like, ‘wow! You’re the one that went out and made something of yourself’ and people that I run into are like, ‘oh do you live with your mom?’ …’no?”, or “you have a full time job!? WHAT? “ you know, people don’t expect that, and so I think I like to prove to people that I CAN do it, and I think a part of it’s that. People just expect me to just sit around when I barely…I don’t. So. I don’t want any part of that going on. Page 37 �Bethanie: Do you find it , like, emotionally draining to like, encourage other people all the time? Or is it, kind of , like, empowering too? Lucia: I think sometimes it can be emotionally draining, you know, I think it’s when you can see what other’s can do and they give up so easily. And you’re like, seriously? It just makes me, I don’t know, it makes me super uncomfortable to be around those people, because, um, who are very negative all the time, or er, always have excuses, and you’re like, really? Cuz, I mean, I bring this up because my brother’s notorious for this. He always, and he’s the baby of the family, he’s 30, but he always makes excuses for everything and I’m like, seriously! I know people that can barely move their arms that are working. You know, why can’t you get a job? (pounding first on the table) , so I mean, I feel like I have high expectations for the people in my life because I know what they’re capable of, I can see it. And I’ve done it too, you know, I’ve done it before and I don’t know, maybe the expectations are too high? Cuz I get annoyed by It when they’re not doing it? And so it’s like, I don’t know, but yeah, I guess it can be draining too. Always trying to encourage people, or, oh! When I’m not happy, people are like, “what’s wrong?” and it’s like, I’m having a bad day! We can all have one of those. You know? Ryan: It seems like, though, um, like you said, um, about making a difference and in anybodies life whether it be putting in an automatic door opener, or taking someone out for clothes, it almost seems like it’s almost kind of a motherly role. Like, not necessarily that, but even more like, a mentor, I mean, I don’t know, not one person has to be mentored… but lets say you mentored an entire group of children that assembled in a gym. That’s gotta feel great! Just knowing that you change, or broke some stereotypical wall… Lucia: Yep yep. So even if they’re okay to ask someone later on, you know, instead of staring at the person, saying, “oh, hey can you tell me what life’s like for you?” you know? Yeah! That’s great! That’s something that I want. I don’t want people being rude or being afraid to ask those questions. You know? So even that, I mean, yeah. You know. Mmhm. Bethanie: Um, I know you said you went to, um, a conference in Las Vegas, with lots of people with disabilities (Lucia laughs) and you mentioned you work with people with lots of hidden disabilities, did you, how, um, like, do you just, like, what sorts of things are hidden disabilities? I guess I don’t know, like… Lucia: Yep! Like ADHD, ADD is a disability… a learning disability, whether it’s reading or writing, autism, um, Aspergers is a big one right now, um, the whole autism spectrum disorder, um, also, um, mental Page 38 �illness, depression, anxiety, really severe diabetes, as well, um, people that have trouble remembering, or concentrating…well that’s a part of the ADHD, concentrating, you know, fibromyalgia, it can be, um, you know, chronic pain, arthritis, I mean, there is just a whole bunch. Ryan: So would you say hidden disabilities roughly could be defined as anything other than physical? Lucia: Yep! Anything that impairs one or more of your major life activities. Is what a hidden disabilities is defined as. So anything, that um, like, walking, talking, speaking, thinking, sleeping, concentrating, you know, I mean, anything ‘-ing’? So what do you do with your daily life? Bethanie: Do you think things along the lines of OCD could be considered a hidden disability? What sorts, of, I don’t know if I’m allowed to ask this, but, teens that you work with, with hidden disabilities, like, what sorts of hidden disabilities do you help them with? Lucia: Well they have, a lot of them have a lot of the mental illness, so, all of the anxiety, all of the depression, um, bipolar, schizophrenia, those types of things, um, I’m seeing a lot of students with Asperger’s syndrome. Ryan: My roommate had that! And we went in blind, it was kind of refreshing to see, cuz like, you know, with, as you know, Aspergers is a social thing, but many Aspergers, um, effected citizens are like, high functioning. They’re like, really smart, brilliant. He was like, couldn’t really have a conversation, but he was excellent in school. Lucia: Yep, hyperfocused on stuff too, so maybe there are just certain things that they are drawn to, um, yeah, I mean, especially with Autism too, sometimes, I mean, it’s a social thing, so you might find someone that’s a little bit quirky, and you’re like, “something’s not quite right”… that’s not just autism that’s just mental illness, that type of thing. Whatever that might be. So you’re like, um, what’s going on with that person? Um, but, yeah, that one’s a big one as well, um, and learning disabilities as well. Students have trouble with reading, writing, math, um, dyslexia, all that stuff, so that’s what we find a lot of, is mental illness and learning disabilities, and that could be from a variety of things. You know, a lot of the kids who are , um, seen as bad kids, a lot of those kids have hidden disabilities as well but they act out because they don’t want people to know what’s wrong. - recording was cut off due to battery- Page 39 �Bethanie: So when you work with these teens that have like, hidden disabilities, um like what sorts of things do they struggle with like the most, or what sorts of things do they tell you that they struggle, besides like their disabilities, like how people treat them and things like that? Lucia: Yeah I think part of it is that just um, people knowing about them having a disability. Like they want to hide it. They don’t want people to know because of the stigma the disability has. People think that you’re dumb or that you can’t do certain things. And so they don’t want to stand out any more than they already do, or they try to stand out in other ways. By the way they dress, the way that they act, by the trouble they get in to. So I see a lot of that, as they don’t want to disclose very much, that they have a disability. So, but we try to talk to them that it’s important to disclose because that’s going to help you in college, to get support, that’s going to help you for your job to get support and accommodations, if you need help, um, writing or reading something, then you’re going to have to ask for it yourself, someone’s not going to go up to you and say: “hey, do you need help?”. So, and it could cost you your job. So that’s kind of where we come from, we’re not saying that you have to announce it to the world, but you need to know about your disability and how to best advocate for yourself. Ryan: That’s like really important though, you know, being able to trust someone enough, I mean it’s a little bit easier when someone can vouch for, “hey I’ve gone through this, or something similar” you know, because that’s a big thing, if you don’t want to share things, because you don’t trust somebody, like you said, you’re going to act out potentially, or you’re just going to ignore it and its going to hurt you down the line. Lucia: Well sometimes, I know that one of our interns at our office, and this is before (talking to Bethanie) your mom had come there, she actually went to Grand Valley State University and one of her professors didn’t believe her, that she had a significant learning disability. And so, he thought that she was lying. So, when she had talked about it, she said that sometimes people don’t believe you when you have a disability. But why would you lie about having a disability? Group: Mhmmm. Lucia: You know, that type of thing. So I know that she struggled with that, with a particular professor here, I don’t remember who it was. But he was also, uh, was a professor from another country as well. So, also when you think about disabilities in other countries… Page 40 �Ryan: Some kind of disconnect there. Lucia: Yeah. Ryan: Or you hope there’s a disconnect there (haha). Lucia: I mean usually I try to think that people hopefully don’t know or just don’t understand. So I would hope that people don’t do it just because they’re jerks. Ryan: Right, exactly. Lucia: So yeah, she um, so I know she had that issue here on campus, but disable student services helped her out too. So. Bethanie: That’s cool. Lucia: Yeah. Bethanie: Um. Lucia: Well I know that Grand Valley has been really involved, especially the Allendale campus, making their facilities accessible and available to people. Um, since I’ve been working at Disability Network, a couple years after, I know we were involved in accessibility stuff here on campus and some of our interns did stuff on campus here. I actually met with a guy a couple weeks ago who had an app, that he has and it shows and tells you of all the accessible areas of campus, and he’s trying to get it in other places. I’m trying to think, I believe his name is James Albright. And I know he started it here and there are students who actually went around and did assessments and stuff to put the information into the app. So, I mean there’s a lot of good things that are happening here. I think that even that Change U class I was telling you that I was involved in, they really did promote not only social, I mean all social justice issues, including disability, which is one of the reasons why I excited to be a part of it because most places, like I said, don’t think of disability. They just kinda think, “eh ya know, we’re not gonna” type of thing. Ryan: that it’s not important. Lucia: Or that it’s not important enough. If you think about it there’s a lot of other issues going on now too, everyone wants their issue to be front and center. Page 41 �Ryan: It probably drives people like you even further to spread the message, well not ‘the message’ but to influence as many people as you can in a positive way. Especially in kids, like you made the point earlier about if you can influence a child or a young adult versus a pretty set in stone with their thought process adult, it might not change. You know maybe you can mold their future a little bit, for the better. Lucia: Or if they treat someone else with respect when they come in contact with that person. Bethanie: What sorts of connections do you find with other people that experience discrimination, like the LGBT community? Lucia: I think with that, you feel some type of comradery, a little bit, especially in Michigan there are some groups that really align themselves, like disability groups, that really align themselves with the LGBTQ community. Michigan Disability Rights Coalition is a big one. Because they feel that what they experience is similar in a lot of ways, people could argue that a difference would be that disability is not a choice, and some people feel that LGBTQ is a choice. And that’s where some disability advocates are not so excited about being aligned in that way because they don’t believe in those things. I feel that in both of those groups, discrimination is powerful in both of those groups. I have friends involved with the LGBTQ community and we talk about how people view both of us, and one of my friends is a lesbian and we talk about how with her it’s so hypersexual, with her it’s “sex, sex, sex” but with me you couldn’t possibly have that stuff and we just think it’s funny how in both groups there’s this and that, but that we’re just people together, we’re just people in general. And so it’s interesting talking about the ways that discrimination takes place in both of our lives, because they can’t be similar. People have discriminated against her because of the fact that she’s lesbian, and people will discriminate on me for the fact that I use a wheelchair/have a disability. You know, those hurtful words too. “Gay/Retarded”, Retarded is a big one that the kids say. People say “that’s gay” and those are words you just don’t use. But if you go out and call someone the “N word” then that’s like oh my gosh! But if you call someone retarded, that’s okay, or if you call someone gay or using another derogatory word, that’s okay, but you can’t go out and use the “N word” because people are like oh my gosh! So why is one acceptable over the other. Or people that call little people midgets. Or they say things to them. We always have good conversations because the discrimination is so raw for both. Very hurtful. END OF INTERVIEW Page 42 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/99daf628cf05b6909e8e6ada80153a63.mp3 c219bd2aca9fa5332a98c6305d9526d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Rios_Lucia Title A name given to the resource Lucia Rios audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rios, Lucia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Billing, Bethanie Description An account of the resource Lucia Rios discusses her experiences with Spina Bifida and life in western Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination against people with disabilities People with disabilities--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2dfa906588273768e52129cec00ee861.pdf 5d76a774a6ab3644b5ac4d2139fa8e46 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Robert Perra Interviewers: Collin Wojtowicz, Bradley Bordewyk and Megan Perra Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/7/2011 Runtime: 00:49:33 Biography and Description Robert Perra discusses his perception of the history of civil rights in western Michigan. Transcript Collin- What is your first and last name? Robert Perra- (laughter) Robert Perra Brad- Can you tell us about your family members? Robert Perra- Are you talking about family of origin or are you talking about uh current family? Brad- Both. Collin- I guess uh, yeah I guess just start with origin and move to current. Robert Perra- Well uh, my family of origin, my mother was a mountain girl from Arkansas. My father was a little town uh guy from Westerly, Rhode Island. Um, war broke out, my father decided to drop out of high school and become a pilot. He was taught how to fly in a box with a stick believe it or not. And uh, his first plane was a triwing, so not even a bi-wing they had three wings to hold a guy up in the air. So he became a pilot in the US Army Air Corps and met my mother in Texas she was working for some company there. He knew her for a week. He went off to the Pacific to fight the war after marrying her after knowing her for one to two weeks. She went to Rhode Island. They had several children of those that are current or those that survived birth would be my oldest brother Frank, my sister Santa immediately, my brother Jim, myself, and then my youngest sister Ovita. Grew up in a military family, my father traveled all over the world and we kind of tagged along. He remained in the military for some thirty years, always found it interesting he retired flying, well he was in charge of communications at the Pentagon but worked in the communications field but he was Page 1 �also a pilot. From the tri-plane that he started at the beginning of the second world war he was flying B-52’s and F-16’s when he ended his career at that point. Is that the kind of information you were looking for? Collin- Yeah, yeah I think so. Yeah. Robert Perra- So that’s at least some of my background. Did my living or growing up in different places in the United States; Omaha, Nebraska, Massachusetts, California, Washington D.C., Spain. Traveled Europe, North Africa, so just kind of never stayed in any one place more than uh 3 to 4 years maybe. Brad- I guess we can jump around then. What places have you lived in throughout your life? All the different places. Robert Perra- Oh my. Well the ones that I would call, ya know, my major places, the ones that I really have some real strong memories off at air force base. Omaha, Nebraska my father at the time was part of the strategic air command Torhone air force base Madrid, Spain uh was before that. Eureka, California, Westerly, Rhode Island, Washington D.C., did uh three maybe four tours of duty there. So I mean those are the places that I can really recall well, um we did an awful lot of traveling as kids. Collin- Okay, um so I guess going off of that um. Like in terms of the places that you have lived, what was society like in that point in time? Robert Perra- What was society like? Collin- Yeah, I guess. Robert Perra- Well it depends upon my age and it depended upon where I was. Uh, in Spain, I was born in 1952 uh so I’m coming up on my 60th year. Uh, we were in Spain we started there in ’58 so that tells you, ’59, so that tells you that early on I was six or seven at that time. Uh, Spain had uh just come out of a uh revolution, a civil war to be specific. Uh, that particular civil war was over in the 1930’s uh and of course in the 1950’s the aftermath was still there. We were one of seven American families uh that were uh going to Spain if you will to try to forge a relationship from the United States and Spain. Um, the United States had just finished getting out of a conflict called the second world war, it was in the newspapers you might have read about it. Um, that was before obviously I was born, but uh that war was a war against fascists and fascism. Uh, I don’t know if you know what fascism is but basically uh fascism is when the government has all the answers and if you don’t uh believe in what they believe is the answer uh then you are either marginalized or in the case of uh uh Germany, uh killed. And the programs that they used were called eugenics. I don’t know if you know anything about eugenics? But, uh eugenics was the betterment of society and that meant that the group in power got to say who was the better. Um, all of that is kind of Page 2 �important in the sense that in Spain they were a little asyncratic with the rest of the world and um the guy who won the war in Spain uh was fascist. So the winners who had just um beat fascism and destroyed fascism were now going into a fascist country to try to become friends. And um, if you knew anything about Franco he was a good buddy of both Mussolini and uh Adolph Hitler. Uh, in fact if it had been later in his civil war he would have uh gone into the war on the side of Germany. So that kind of makes it a schizophrenic country. So I grew up early on learning a lot about what you are not allowed to do in a fascist country. Uh, if you weren’t Roman Catholic you were uh, you better keep your mouth shut. If you were not um, if you didn’t have all the answers, you can uh, you can kind of kiss it goodbye. Uh, the first person I saw killed was when I was 10. Um, I was walking away from the University of Madrid uh and a guy in a trench coat, I mean this sounds so surrealistic, uh comes over and picks me up and carries me away. So obviously I was being watched; they knew who I was. Um and when you looked over the guys shoulder um there were some protesters at the university, university students about your age. And a group of people came in with uh submachine guns and just opened fire. So you didn’t want to tell anybody in power that they were wrong. It was an extremely uh authoritarian country, very safe I mean it was really simple you knew that nobody was gunna hurt you because the penalty for that was death. So don’t j-walk. And uh the Spanish at that time were uh, were terrified of them. Uh now, just til the uh, this is kind of jumping to today because they’re just, but it gives you an idea of the, the mentality of the people in that time of the, the world. Um, and it was wonderful by the way to be in Spain. I loved the people, I loved being there. But as a kid a lot of what I learned I had to put together into what the hell does this all mean because that’s not, that’s not the way that I I grew up in this country understanding. And uh, if you were been listening to the news over the last uh four or five weeks uh it has now come out under Franco that if you were a nun, or priest, or lawyer, or a majestrate, or anyone of power. If you happened to be a pregnant woman during that time period, uh if they decided that you weren’t really fit to raise the child, they were able to mark you. And when you had the child, they would take the child from you and tell you that the child died in uh child birth. And then they would sell the child to somebody who they thought was more fit. Ya know, a good Catholic family, somebody with money, uh people that looked like them because if you didn’t look like them you were no good at all. Uh, and then the state would rearrange the uh birth certificate so it looked like you were just given birth. This is what a fascist country does, ya know, they make it up. And uh, that went on until 1973, so you have to understand that is part of their eugenics process. Um, the United states eugenic pro, eugenics processes started to die out in 1973 as well. That is when we would sterilize drug addicts, prostitutes, criminals, anybody that we didn’t think should have kids; we just ripped their ovaries out or take off their testicles. Uh except in North Carolina and South Carolina, they continued to do that until 2003. But, you have to understand what it means when we talk about fascism. Because that is the background of what I grew up in, and why when Page 3 �you start asking me questions about the civil rights movement. All of a sudden what I am looking at, this is, this is through the eyes of a 10, 11, 12, uh 13 year old who is looking at a world that people not only are telling you what you are believing, telling you what you should believe, but will either kill you or rip your balls off, or rip out your ovaries, or imprison you. If you don’t agree with them. Uh, this is the time in which uh Amnesty International was founded because in Portugal two people just raised a glass of wine and said to freedom. Both were arrested and never seen again. So does that giving you a little bit of the social culture that I grew up in? In Spain and in the United States. Collin- Definitely. Robert Perra- So in the United States uh ya know, from Spain we came to Washington D.C. And Washington is really the city that I remember the most because of uh my father’s three tours of duty we always came back to there. But the world was the same, same structure. Um, famous people who agreed that this was a good thing: uh Woodrow Wilson, Oliver Wendel Holmes (the jurist), Alexander Graham Bell, Lindberg, President Bush’s, the last one’s grandmother was a eugenicist. Collin- Really? Robert Perra- Um, yeah. I mean these, well ya know, the last President Bush was a fascist. He uh, he just, he had all the answers. He was, but he was he really was an effectual it doesn’t matter, he was also lazy. He took more vacations than any other president ever since the country was founded. Uh so, but but I’m jumping too many decades. The decade we are talking about is the late 50’s and early 60’s at this point. And uh, that’s what was my foundation if you will. That’s, that’s the world that I looked at. And uh, grew up very much becoming a uh in that period of time a radical uh inclusivist. That every human being has the right to hear and say what they wish to say and as long as it doesn’t infringe on the uh respect and or honor of other human beings that’s their right to do so. That there are multiple answers and that uh, that’s, that’s not quite what the American dream was at that point and still isn’t. But, uh that’s what we were hopefully moving toward. So I was there for four years. Um, society. I bought a baby lamb, from there was a lamb, uh uh a herder, a sheep herder next to the high rise that we lived in. And I bought one of the lambs and I brought it home. I paid a loaf of bread, if you are getting an idea of how starved people were. My mother brought in a ward from the uh orphanage, who used to steal the mashed potatoes and stick them in his pockets because he was only allowed to, could only afford one meal a week. He was, he roomed with me when he stayed with us. Um, my mother and I being the youngest, she would go and buy food and bring it to the orphanage. And uh, I remember once she left the box alone and uh one of the children uh trying to get at a Page 4 �can of beans and basically tried to bash another kids head in. That’s the society I grew up in. What does your society? Collin- Not quite the same as that. Robert Perra- Hmmm. Collin- (Laughs). Grand Rapids, Michigan, I’ve lived for my entire life so. Brad- Yeah. Collin- Yeah. Robert Perra- But you can imagine as a yound child food, equality, um that became passionately important to me. And the amount of, when we came back to the United States, let’s see it would have been four years so ’59, ’62, ’63, um the prejudice in this country or the segregation in this country was unbelievable. Uh, just so that you get a sense of of what that means. Uh first of all, my daughter who is sitting with you wouldn’t be allowed to be in this room. In fact she wouldn’t have been allowed to go to your classes. That's one. Umm, I was walking down the street a little town called Marshall, Arkansas. People were still wearing sidearms at this point, this was the 1960s. I had a cousin who was shot because he was cheating at pool, coroner said he had it coming, so I guess he did. Shouldn't cheat at pool. But I remember walking down the street, I must have been, eleven? An old woman walked by just, you know, like any town. She dropped a can, I picked it up, I put it in her bag, said good day and walked on. I was later pulled over, told that I should not interact with blacks. Collin- Really? Robert- Blacks were not allowed to be at my high school. My uncle probably insulted me the most when I was in eight grade and didn't even know it. Uncle Leo. Thought he was being a nice guy, but it gives you an idea of what we call “comfortable couch prejudice.” Umm, I went to a Catholic church at that time and uh, that was an important part of my life. Uh, t was Blessed Sacrament in Alexandria, Virginia. And the old Monseigneur who was Irish, and Irish kind of people are questionable too, you know, uh, they were, they assimilated because they were white but they had a hard assimilation. Umm, but Quinn, Monseigneur Quinn was a heck of a guy. He always believed that if he could spend a dollar twice he outta. And there was this little Baptist church across the street from Blessed Sacrament. And he hired the Pastor there to be the janitor, uh, at the church which I/he thought was a great idea and as an adult I'm thinking “very clever.” Uh, you know, if you really believe in church kind of stuff you're kind of spending your money twice [Collin-right] you're taking money from your church, you're giving it to another guy who's gonna run another church I mean that's pretty clever. It's kind of uh, his own little pyramid scheme of sorts but, uh, I just thought it was very clever. And uh, in doing this, um, the guy was always nice to us you know the guy all he did was he cleaned the damn church and the school, you know, but he always had a nice thing to say and he was just a really nice guy. And so in the Roman Catholic tradition uh, at Christmas time they have the uh, a midnight service, Page 5 �you know they just kind of get together and light some candles, throw some incense, do some songs, that kind of thing and uh, midnight mass, and that's not a very Baptist kind of a thing. You're not gonna burn incense in the Baptist church across the street. So this guy and his wife would come over to the midnight mass at Blessed Sacrament. And my family would have uh, a meal, um, after midnight mass so that means everybody from church or anybody who wanted to, would come over to our house for uh, a breakfast. And uh, we just invite anybody. Well I invited him and his wife you know, why not? And he came over to the house for breakfast and, delightful time, great guy. My uncle, the great liberal, uh, about three days later pulled me off and to the side, he wanted to congratulate me and tell me how proud he was of me that I could invite a black man and his wife to my home for breakfast without asking my father. And he never had an idea in his head what kind of a bigoted statement that was, or how insulting it was, because that had never crossed my mind, it wouldn't, uh, you know, but in his mind, you know, it was so subtle, that that idea of bigotry, of of exclusivity, of pushing aside. And uh, what can I say, that's that's the society on this side of the Atlantic. If you were poor you obviously had done something wrong to piss off God and you were actually worthless thank you very much good morning. And I remember my father and family actually getting up more than one time, well, twice where we'd be in a restaurant and a black family would come in and be told to leave, we don't serve your kind here. And it didn't matter where we were in the dinner we would get up and leave, we'd just pay the bill and leave, even if we hadn't received any food yet. So, my wife went to a segregated school in Sanibul Island, Florida, I went to a segregated school in Alexandria, Virginia. There's the society on both sides of the Atlantic, now, what do you need to know about it? Brad- Um, well I guess you left off with school, what was school like for you? High School and College. Robert- Wow. Well high school, um, by this time I guess I was a, by this time I was pretty, pretty aggressive and pretty much a of an activist, um, I went to a Catholic school for the first two years. Bishop [Ierton](sp). Um, my grades were okay, but I wanted to take French, they told me they couldn't give me French um, because they didn't feel that I fit the profile to take that course, so I figured they don't need my father's money, I left. Again, profiling was something by this time that angered me and I was a real jerk, I had my ideas of what the world should be and when it didn't go my way I flipped people off and walked on, pretty much like I do today to be honest. Um, so not too too different. So I went to a public school, Hammond High School where I enjoyed that. The end of my junior year my father retired and I moved to Westerly Rode Island um, and at that point I went to Ward Senior High School. I had a really hard transition um, Hammond High School was a couple of thousand students, it was a large school, uh, it was all white as I said and the same held to true I think with Ward Senior High School. Of course I couldn't imagine a black person in Westerly at the time, there may have been one or two I don't know. Uh, but uh, it was, I think my entire graduating class was under a hundred and so it was a real, real shock to move from a school that was inclusive to one that was very, very exclusive. Uh, very Italian and very Catholic. Um, joined the football team, uh at the first game we were forced to say the Lord's prayer so I wasn't part of the football team anymore. There was a Jewish kid on the team, they didn't give a rip that he didn't uh, wasn't Christian, they were gonna Page 6 �force him so I wasn't gonna be uh, associated with that. So the school immediately put me into counseling and told me my problem was that my father was a football player and that I couldn't live up to it. And I thought, well, this is an interesting psychologist. Asked my father if he had ever played football and he said no, he went to war. But, the psychologist had the answer for me. And uh, I finished uh, that year um, I was, the Vietnam War was going on at this time, that was a major issue. The uh, draft was going on. Uh, I had been eighteen so I applied for my conscientious objector status uh, that particular draft board as far as I know it never given anybody a CO. And uh, I think that was part of my, oppositional disorder that I had at that point in my life, that I still have. Um, and my father uh, I remember coming to the uh, the hearing, cuz you had to prove that that you didn't believe in war to be able to be giving a conscientious objector status, because Catholics believe in killing and so, if you're Catholic of course you're going to be a military you know, and uh, if you're Protestant they know you believe in killing, so, didn't matter you know? Uh, Quakers, there were a few Quakers in Rode Island they were given status but usually not very often, and not in Westerly. But my father came and gave testimony for me and I was given uh conscientious status conscientious objector status. I worked on campaigns I was politically very active, uh, at that time a democrat. Um, my uncle was the sergeant at arms of the United States senate, uh Hubert Humphrey was family friends, uh, with him and had met him. So you kind of get a sense that political life was something that that was not something that uh, feared us, or feared me at least. And when I graduated I uh, joined the Franciscan Order and I started being a postulate in the monastery or to be more accurate a friary and went to Saint Thomas More Scholastica to Catholic university and so that started my college education. Um, you have to jump years ahead after that I uh, decided that the monastery wasn't for me, moved back to Rode Island, met my wife she was my boss, I was working at a camp for the retarded, uh, children. Um, got married, took off to uh, Albertly, Minnesota. During all this time I had sang as a musician on a stage, I did church music , I had, you know, did whatever I wanted actually I was a cook and a chauffeur for a while to a priest, I mean, we paid the bills. And uh, Tom Driscoll was a great guy, that's the priest. Um, then a guy by the name of Curtis, uh, Father Curtis, uh, brought us to Albertly Minnesota, took a job there and decided that I really needed to get uh, more education. So, I was being a church musician and liturgist during a time immediately following uh, something called Vatican two, which was a, a change in the Roman tradition to become inclusive instead of everybody going to hell, maybe everybody has something to offer, and uh, so the Vatican two changed the liturgy from Latin to English or the vernacular. And while I was in the church in Albertly during the summers I drove to Collegeville, Minnesota about 250 miles north and I got a uh master's degree and bachelor's degree from Saint John's University in Collegeville in pastoral arts and liturgy. There's my college background at that point. From there I was hired by the Diocese of Kalamazoo. Uh, new Diocese, just founded and they needed somebody to run the office of Christian Worship so I came to Kalamazoo, Michigan. Didn't like the job, liked the place. Uh, went back to school, um, studied um, counseling at Western Michigan University, uh, still liked working with the down and out so uh, was the clinical director at a methadone maintenance clinic, worked with addicts and street people, um, got my doctorate in Clinical Psychology. Needed to do an internship so my wife and I moved to London, England and did my doctoral internship with the National Health Service of Great Britain. '86 came back worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield for a while, decided that they really weren't interested in people, left them real fast, uh, worked for the Page 7 �substance abuse counsel in St. Joseph county, and then uh, opened twenty years ago my own practice and have been in Sturgis ever since as a Clinical Psychologist. And for the last twenty years have uh, taught part time, Addictionology and Addictions at Western Michigan University. So, I don't know how you split, give me your education out from your life, but there it is, pull it out. Collin- Several answers have been questioned [questions have been answered] in one so we're kind of moving around. Robert- I'm sorry. Collin- Huh, no it's fine it it actually works out really well. Brad- Yeah I was gonna say we're down to like three or four left. Collin- Okay, um, okay, so, how about, you wanna do this one? Robert- How bout those Mets? Collin- Yea Brad- Did we already do that one? Collin- We might of yea. Collin: How was the way that you view yourself and your identity changed as you’ve grown older, like how have you identified yourself like 20 years ago compared to today? Robert Perra: I’m more sad and less angry. I think that one of the, one of the things about being a radical inclusivist and trying to be an activist is coming to an understanding of when a inclusivity and tolerance has a tendency to fail, um things that a would irate, make me irate as a child and young man, uh everybody just seems to think that’s how it is today, and so they don’t seem to have very much passion. When I was 15, as an example, this would have been 1987 [1967] when I was 15 um a guy who that you would probably only know as the name of a street uh was alive, his last name was king, and most people don’t really know what his message was, they thought it was a black thing, and it really wasn’t, it was a people thing, he believed very strongly that people should be viewed by their integrity and their creditability not by artificial factors, blacks were put aside but not only blacks, my goodness we throw people that were from Japan and descendents we had them in concentration camps we marginalize Jews, anybody who was not uh part of the main stream, you know, it’s a little like being in Grand Rapids and that phrase if you’re not Dutch you’re not much. Well add that little bit larger, because that phrase is that type of exclusive and its if you’re not us your nothing, and that’s what he was fighting against. When he was assassinated, first of all what he was working on when he was assassinated was a few months, what came to fruition came a few months later, but when he was assassinated a lot of cities went up in smoke. Um this would have been in 87 [68] and this is much different than the Detroit riots of 86 [67] that was a different powered kick that was um when a cop and 4 or 5 police officers were sanctioned to go beat up the blacks and that riot started because they were holding a funeral for a young man who was killed in Vietnam and the police decided to break it up and took the mother and the father of the young solider into Page 8 �custody and beat up his brother and the black community there so that was a very black thing but in in this when when Washington DC blew up uh congress ordered that no food could be sold in Washington DC because they were going to starve the uh um rioters out and uh that infuriated me uh as a 15 year old who didn’t even have a drivers license it really pissed me off so uh I ran down to the blessed sacrament of the church uh grabbed the white van we had a food pantry I filled the van along with two other people full of baby food, dippers, uh formula and uh choose to come into Washington DC through Rosslyn, if you had money you’re always going to be safe so if you go in through Georgetown you knew darn well the soldiers are going to be real careful because you’re probably either a senators son, a lawyers son, or a doctors son or somebody that’s important. If you come in across the bridge it’s too close to the White House you’re going to get shot. Now a lot of people did get shot bringing food in um so I came in through Georgetown then I broke through the barricades there to take food downtown uh in Washington I remember driving by the uh um White House of course there were machine gun nests all over the White House uh same over congress I mean we are talking about 50 calibers uh they’d rip you apart and uh uh national guard were out of course I’ve never driven before so I was stopping at stop lights as buildings were blowing up but that’s a different story that’s kind of just insanity but I was incents uh got the food took it too St. Stephens in the incarnation which was an Episcopal church downtown um unloaded it um got the truck a little bit further was pulled over and clabbered by a couple of police officers and thrown in jail uh the Swiss Embassy got me out because I was uh under the armband of the American Red Cross but by that time the American Red Cross had uh disavowed us feeding children they were of course apart of congress and congress was still wanting us to starve out the city (cough) international red cross they changed our armbands so it had something weird on it pulled me out of jail, got two more runs then they found out I was only 15 so I got shipped back to Alexandra where my father picked me up. Um but there’s passion, today 1 out of 6 children go hungry out of the United States and nobody gives a flying shit. That’s a difference, the initiative for the poor people’s campaign which was what king was working on when he was in Atlanta getting ready for it. I went downtown I, I brought people it I was building shanties on the uh, in, in the city we were building temporary housing for poor people, uh the campaign of course was attempting to have legislation uh past an anti poverty legislation, an anti poverty legislation occurred uh you know would occur what that basically was saying not that poor people would be given money but that every American would have the right as any other American to compete on their credibility, their value, and their quality and that just because you were born poor your shouldn’t remain poor, that’s in essence what that entire group legislation meant and uh it was flawed and I mean I kept building the houses uh I was very much an activist and fighting for that. I remember Abernathy coming by uh I was just putting some nail in, told you I was always oppositional his aid looked at him and said they needed to get back to the Georgetown which is a 4 star hotel, pissed me off, he awet to be down in the shanties, I was so I yelled out to him and said “oh Rev. Abernathy, this one’s for you, ready for you to move in.” Got some real filthy looks, of course I’m just a white kid what the hell do I know. But there’s injustice everywhere in that sense and he went back to his 4 star hotel. The Legislation didn’t pass, and what people don’t recognize or understand and and I guess I was lucky because uh I remember my uncle talking about it I remember Hubert Humphrey talking about it, I remember my father talking about it, it basically said that in the law and under the law all people are treated equally as much as humanly Page 9 �possible because back then as even a lot today white privilege is what counts or right now we don’t have white privilege anymore its green privilege and uh that’s the direction that it’s been going well it failed and I’ve still worked for justice as far as I can but people don’t seem to have the passion. In the 1990s I had a little bit of hope uh the SNL crisis uh that’s when some bankers in the savings and loan um fraudulently ripped off a good number of Americans and uh the attorney general went after them um put a quit good number of them in jail. The paper trail when you do banking is always clear so I mean when you screw up in the banking, if they are interested they can put you in jail. Its its its very clear um now we are in 2009 we have another banking crisis its 70 to 700 times worse than the SNL there were three FBI warnings to congress. Bush didn’t give a crap, so guess what you know how many people have been legislated against or I mean uh uh taken to court for that action under Mr. Obama’s rule? Zero. It’s ok under Bush it would have been zero too. Um they screwed up how many millions of people, made them homeless and the attorney general of the United States, the President of the United States and the Legislator of the United States and the judiciaries of the United States don’t care. That makes me sad, because you see the paper trail is there. A first year law student can follow it you don’t have to be a lawyer and that’s the end result of the whole issue of the poor people’s campaign and the poverty, anti poverty legislation that’s what it was trying to attend to but today in this country that’s why you get the match on Wall Street at the moment. And they call 99 1 percent of the people have the green and there above the law. And according to the President well as far as we can see his eyes are green and his attorney general has green eyes too and so do all the republican candidates so this isn’t uh Democratic bashing exercise. So how have I changed? I guess I’ve changed by becoming instead of passionate and angry, sad and cynical, I think I liked myself better when I was angry and passionate. Don’t know if that really answers your question. Collin: Nope yeah mhm. We are very organized Robert Perra: I’m sorry I must be boring the crap outta you. Bradley: How does living in West Michigan, How does is it different then the other places you’ve lived? Robert Perra: Well when we moved to Kalamazoo and decided to have children there were two things I wanted for them that I didn’t have, one was I wanted them to have stability, I have very in fact I have no childhood friends, I am a nomad um I have no roots, um I have family I don’t see very often, uh we were made hyper independent and um not very interdependent on the society and what I wanted for my children was to have roots to say I’m from here you know, uh I have kids that I went to school with, I know who I went to my elementary school with my high school my college. Um I wanted people, I wanted them to have a sense of lifelong understanding so I made a choice to live in Western Michigan because number one it was small It was quiet, and the Alexandr, uh Richland and Kalamazoo area, uh It was relatively safe. Um when I was in high school in uh uh Alexandria, Virginia um there were some interactions between blacks and whites. uh uh whenever Hammond High School or TC Williams um played George W, George Washington uh there was always a riot afterwards in the stands, blacks and whites would be beating the shit out of each other, didn’t matter who won. And so you would get things in the newspaper uh “TC Williams won on field GW won in the stands.” I mean it was that Page 10 �that’s craziness, people were shot fairly regularly in Washington DC. And it never even reached the news paper. uh Washington DC growing up was one of the most corrupt cities in the world had to many police officers and to many police forces and none of them did anything because not only did you have the FBI but then you have the secret service and then you had a military service for each branch of the government and then you have Washington DC cut in four and each of the four had their own police department now half of Washington is from Virginia so the Virginia state police would come into one half and now the other half is from Maryland and so the Maryland state police would come in, now we also had the executive police because the executive police were responsible for the diplomats and of course they have authority there and then of course the white house has its own staff so we have there protection. And the judiciary. Well you have so much you have none. And so when I decided to come here I wanted to be in a place where I was somewhat comfortable that my children would wake up one morning and still be alive. Now that sounds very really strange, but that’s why I grew up and raised my children in Michigan because drive by shootings although they happen they don’t happen often. And uh the wagon train with the Indians doing the drive by shootings uh uh with arrows that hadn’t happened sense the 1880s so it seems safe. Now once my children all grow up and leave, I’m not certain where my wife and I will uh move too. I’ve always liked North Africa and London was great fun and we like Florida and but we stayed in this part of the world for the safety of our children. Is that what you really wanted? Bradley: yeah, that kinda answers the last one too. Collin: mhmm, I think, I think that’s it I believe that concludes the interview Bradley: yeah Robert: Now did you get anything that you can use out of this? Collin: yes we did. Robert Perra: Good! END OF INTERVIEW Page 11 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4366b1146376d5f6535fe8b073446aff.mp3 4ad6d35e22cbb5dbfa94840219bcec08 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Perra_Robert Title A name given to the resource Robert Perra audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Perra, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wojtowicz, Collin Bordewyk, Bradley Perra, Megan Description An account of the resource Robert Perra discusses his perception of the history of civil rights in western Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1c0b68ede4de520b37a6a69daa6608a.pdf d8d9bddd88c90ede36718c3e84dfeae4 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: James Morton Interviewers: Seph Morkes Supervising Faculty: Kim Buechek Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/16/2012 Runtime: 00:41:58 Biography and Description James Morton talks about his family’s experience immigrating to the United States during the big flight of Puerto Ricans of the 1950s. He also discusses his experiences with discrimination in both Queens, New York and West Michigan. Transcript Seph: I am Joe Morkes. I am interviewing James Morton. James, would you, uh, be so kind as to tell me about yourself? James: How much do you want to know? Seph: Well, I’ll probably go through it, but um, any, anywhere you want to start. Because I’m going to ask you where you were born, family life, stuff like that. So you could just take it from the beginning. James: Well, I was born November 11, 1986, uh, in Saint John’s Hospital in Queens, New York. But I was raised from the very next moment in Manhattan. I stayed in Manhattan until I left for college at the University of Buffalo in New York. And then I currently live in Allendale, Michigan pursuing my Masters Degree at Grand Valley State University. I am the son of James Edward Morton, Sr. and Carmen ***. Uh, my mom is of Puerto Rican background born in, um, Guadal, Puerto Rico. And my father is of African American descent and was born in Brooklyn, New York. My parents split when I’m.. Must have been around 2 or 3. So I was raised in a primarily single parent household however my dad was still around, so.. Weekends and that kind of thing. Uh, raised predominately by women. Ah, my mom, my older half sister, and my grandmother, and an assortment of cousins and aunts. Seph: Ok. Um, now you said, uh, your mom was of Puerto Rican descent? James: Uh huh, yep. Page 1 �Seph: Now, is she a first generation, um, Puerto Rican? Um, how was that, like how? James: I guess I would be technically first generation, born here. Seph: Ok. James: I guess I don’t really know how the first and second, um, works. I guess I would be first generation, American born, Puerto Rican. But she was born there, again, in Guadal, Puerto Rico, and I think she moved here, I think she moved to New York when she was 8 years old. Seph: Ok. James: So, during the 50s, during that big flight of Puerto Ricans… Seph: Gotcha. James: … to the United States. Seph: Ok. Um, now, um, are you bilingual, then? James: Naaa, not officially, I wouldn’t say I’m fluent in Spanish but I know when it’s being yelled at me. Seph: Ok. James: No, I mean I’ve obviously picked up some given that half of my family speaks it but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t claim that I’m bilingual but as far as Spanish, that’s the closest other language that I know. Seph: Mmm hmm. Ok. Um. Now I guess, um. Do you know where, um, your parents met? Um. James: Yea, um, they actually worked, um, I think it was landlord and tenant court for Manhattan. Um. My dad, actually, I believe substituted for her supervisor one day, something like that, and that’s how they initially met. And then, um, they met, um, in the criminal court system. The United Courts of New York. Seph: Ok. Very cool. Um. James: Oh, the Unified Court System of New York. I think that’s what it’s officially called. **** Umbrella companies. **** Seph: Now how about, um, childhood, like as far as schools? Um. Did you go to a public private school? How about telling me a little about that? Page 2 �James: I guess for my first bout with schooling, I went to this program that they had started because my mom worked for the court system so they had this program called “Fed Kids” which was essentially a day care program for employees of both New York State and the Federal Government, uh, essentially day care for civil servants. And, uh, I must have started that, I mean, I may have been, two or three I guess, it’s at whatever age you start interacting with people. And, uh, I mean, that was obviously finger painting and toys. But then I started going to Catholic school in pre-kindergarten. And I assume that must have been, maybe, that might have been three, maybe three into four, because I have a late birthday in November, so. I was always the youngest kid in my class for the most part. And um, did pre-K and Kindergarten at Immaculate Conception School, which was very old school Catholic, and complained about it pretty much every day. I used to stage escapes. I was once found, uh, trying to push open the door at the front of the school. Meanwhile my class was on the 2nd floor, so, no one knows how I got away. Um, and then went to public school for 2 years. That’s where I learned how to fight and to curse and how to be a terrible human being. So I actually volunteered to go back to Catholic school because I realized I was pretty much on the fast track to hell at that point. And, uh, in 3rd grade returned to Immaculate Conception School. It was a K through 12, no a K through 8, and stayed there until I graduated in 8th grade. Then I went to LaSalle Academy, which was a Catholic High School, um, run by the Christian Brothers, which were started by, uh Saint Jean Baptiste de LaSalle and, um, I really enjoyed it. Um, my four years it was one of those, it was, it was very tough obviously, it was a very particular years in a person’s life. Definitely grow and learn a lot. Um, girls were introduced into the mix sorta, but it was an all boy’s school, so, uh. Actually, it’s in hindsight, I actually appreciate that because I feel like it actually kept me focused. And um school wasn’t so bad. Then after that, I went to the University of Buffalo for 5 years. Now I’m at Grand Valley for grad school. Seph: Ok. Um. Then, uh, I’ll probably get a little bit more specific with that, um, as, I might, I might jump back to, um before college, but uh, as far as University of Buffalo, uh, what made you decide on that? What made you decide to go to the University? Was it something that was expected? Was it something that you… *** James: Essentially, uh, I feel that universities and colleges, at least from, I guess the New York perspective.. From like a city like New York where there’s a high demand for higher education, um, and is such a financial center of the world that going to college, it was expected. I mean, I uh, I would have to say that I went to school with a lot of people at, um, at Buffalo that probably were not cut out for college but you weren’t really given too many other options. I remember even for my graduating class I think there were only two or three guys that were just going straight into the work-force, you know, like obviously, I feel it is generally less common, um, but I feel just like in a Metropolitan area like that that Page 3 �it’s, even, you know less so. And um, I actually chose Buffalo kind of, it sounds terrible, but um we have the State University of New York application, but um, because we have our state schools, and you’re supposed to choose 4 schools. I had Stonybrook University was my number one. Um, the University at Albany was my number two. And, uh, SUNY Gennesea *** which was in the middle of nowhere but is a fantastic school was my third. Those were the solid three, like, those were the ones I really wanted to go for and then I was all like, I need a fourth one and I heard Buffalo was alright. So I put down Buffalo and um I get in. They’re interested. They think, um, they think I’m doing um, I could do well. And I got into, um, well I got into all of them actually and just decided… I feel like Buffalo would be a nice change, that it would be different and um, and it’s also the second largest city in New York and I felt um it would be less drastic of a change from home to Buffalo. Uh, that was entirely incorrect. Um, the difference in population, I think… New York City was somewhere around 9 million and Buffalo was about 2 or 3. Seph: Right. James: Which is sounds foolish, but. But uh, it made a huge difference. Also it was an entirely different walk of life. But um, I mean, it was interesting and I’m glad I ended up there. I mean it obviously had its ups and its downs, but. I would say generally it was a nice second home, you know, I’d say for the time being. Seph: Um. When you were in high school, did you play any sports? Or even before? James: No. I guess, um, as far as through the high school, um, theater club, um like drama club was actually my big thing. But, if I had a say a sport throughout high school, um, martial arts I guess would be my sport. Um, I wasn’t really into it for the competitive purpose. I was more into it, I guess, I mean obviously for self-defense. Not that I had really any, any issues with that. It wasn’t like I had the uh hard knock life upbringing, but, um, I really respected the idea and the culture that kind of came along with it, so. It became a really big part of my life. I kept up a little bit during um, my undergraduate at Buffalo, but, just through all the other stuff that I had to do, it kind of died down a little bit. Seph: Was that, um, something you did outside of school? James: Yea. I, uh, I took Kung Fu at a school. It was, um, it was called **** Kung Fu, it was out of Chinatown. And um, I think their system is like the Black Tiger system or something like that. That was like their specialty. But, um, almost every Kung Fu school does like the, they almost have like the geneds of, you know, like Kung Fu, and then I, um, actually started taking up this martial art called ******** from Indonesia. And um, I learned that. One of my sister’s really good friends, he was a uh, a teacher from the Warrior System. Which is this international group of martial artists that, basically take a Page 4 �little bit from different forms of martial arts and put them together because they feel that all martial arts systems for the most part are pretty incomplete. So, put the strengths of all of them together and put a little bit from here and there and you’d make one martial artist that is better rounded than someone who is married to one system. And uh, eventually got exposed to ****** and it’s such an, it’s such a little known system here that he uh basically started hand-picking students to kinda just start working sort of like out of his house was like the original studio. And um, that’s, uh, that was the last system that I learned from. And I really enjoyed it. I still like, remember some stuff, but um. Yea. So that was my sport, I guess. No football. Unlike everyone, uh, every other guy in Michigan. Seph: And that, um, last system… That was when you were in college? James: No, no, no, that was, uh, I’d say junior and senior year of high school. Seph: Ok. Um, now theater… Is that something that uh, you did all throughout high school? James: Yea, for the, for the most part, uh, I was pretty heavily involved from the get-go. I heard it’s where you met girls, so… Kinda jumped at that. But acting had always been something that I liked doing. I did it a few times, actually, before high school. Um, and I don’t know. I guess it just drew me in and I felt like I was actually pretty good at it so. It was something to do. Seph: Ok. Very cool. And now you said a way to meet girls was a, but you were at an all boy’s school.. James: Right. We had girls come from the other, come from the all girls’ schools. ****** girl spots because…Yea, we didn’t want any guys in dresses. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Seph: Um. Ok. Let’s uh, I might be back to some of that stuff in a little bit. James: Ok. Yea, that’s fine. Seph: Um, but, as far as Western Michigan goes, how did you end up coming to Michigan? How did you end up figuring on Grand Valley? And just tell me about that. James: Uh. I guess I would have to say, uh, embarrassingly enough, my biggest motivation was, I saw Grand Valley compete at a cheerleading Nationals in Daytona. Uh I guess it was what? 3… Yea, about three years ago, I guess. And um, I just saw them and kind of thought cheerleading was a sport that I got into really late in college. Um, I played rugby before that, as you know, and, um, I just thought, well I mean I had thought about obviously school after college, especially because I was a history undergrad, so… There’s not much that you can do with that by itself and I decided that well, maybe I can get this cheerleading thing to start paying for some of my education and I looked into Grand Valley and found Page 5 �that they actually had a Masters of education program for adult and higher ed. It was basically half education, half history. I thought “Wow, that’s actually pretty perfect.” Because I think that I should have some sort of education background as well as history. And, um, I basically, I had a talk with one of my old teammates. I was just looking for something new. I mean at that point I had pretty much outgrown Buffalo. And I wasn’t ready to go back home yet. Not out of an I don’t want to move back in with, you know, my mom, but more of a, I felt like I still had some growing to do and I didn’t think, I didn’t think I was going to get, um, I was going to get back home, so… I had even contemplated just moving somewhere, like maybe like Nebraska, or you know, like one of those white states that we don’t know much about. And then Michigan came up with Grand Valley, so I thought “Grand Rapids? Michigan? Never heard of it. Maybe I should.” ***** should do it. I wanted to see if I could transplant myself to some place and um, you know, make it work. Work around it and see how the rest of the country was and get out of my New York state of mind, so… That’s essentially how I kind of ended up out here. Seph: Ok, and uh… I don’t mean to take a step back, but you mentioned that you cheer. James: Yea. Seph: You mentioned rugby. Um, and a little bit about outgrowing Buffalo… But um, taking a step back to Buffalo, um, how was your experience there? Um, your undergrad experience. Uh, you know, can you tell me any funny stories or anything you want? James: Right. Seph: About how you got into dabbling with rugby and how’d you get into cheer? James: Well, I guess I’ll tell the rugby and cheer stories first because those are, I feel like, the easiest ones. Um, rugby had been one of those sports, growing up in New York City, we had field sports, but not to the same degree as like, I guess, places with space for them. So, rugby had been um that sport that I would randomly catch on tv, you know, like, other like random cable, you know, ESPN like channels that show, those kind of, those kind of channels. And um, I saw rugby and every time I saw it, it was just so exciting. You know, I instantly was just instantly enthralled, just completely, just, it would, all my attention would be invested in rugby and I thought it was the most amazing sport. But, I guess in a sense, coming from the United States, it’s not around the corner, you have to kind of look for rugby. It’s a little more difficult to track down. And um, I would have to say a big downside to places like New York City is because of how, I guess, urban they are. It’s so expensive to do quote unquote like special sports. Like hockey, um, I think to just to join a league is like $3,000 a year or something like that. And that’s just, Page 6 �that’s just hockey, which is something people around here just do for fun. So, um, so rugby had always been something that interested me and then I ended up in Buffalo. Found out that they had a rugby team. And um, one of my fraternity brothers was on it. And so, talked to him and he was just like “Oh, you could come out to a practice.” And that’s how, you know, I got involved. Uh, really loved it. Had nothing, nothing negative about it at all. Like I mean, obviously, there’s like that rowdiness that comes along with rugby but, I didn’t mind it with them so much because they were rowdy, but they were good. So, it was nice to, it was, it was almost like cheating to instantly like walk onto a good team. And, um, obviously, I wasn’t on the A team, like you know, initially, just, you know, kind of went on and the coaches just said to go out there and figure it out. So… I mean it was fun. Um. It was a good season. And then, I, uh, dabbled in um, stand-up comedy, actually, for a while. And the president of our University of Buffalo Stand-Up Comic Society, the acronym UB SUCS, which they never caught on, um, he shows up to one of our meetings one day and he’s telling us, he’s like “Oh, I’m gonna go out for cheerleading tomorrow.” So we’re just like “Wait, what are you talking about?” and apparently his roommate had gotten approached by a girl in the gym. She said that she was a cheerleader and he should come out. So he goes home, and he’s like “This girl asked me to try out for cheerleading so this kid Andrew is all “I’m gonna go out and do it, you know, tell me the time.” So I hear about it, and I’m just like “That’d be brilliant for material. Like I should go to, like I should have a story about cheerleading tryouts that’s like ridiculous, obviously.” So I went there totally for the wrong reasons. Went there entirely to just drudge the hell out of them and make jokes about it and like, actually, you know, just try to push this, like, comedy career, um, off of it. And, um, from day one, it was one of those, like wow, this is actually pretty cool *** and, um, eventually and I didn’t know *** These are teammates that I still value their friendship, like amazingly, today. They’re just, um, some of, I would say, the best friends I ever made in my life and it’s probably how I got pulled into cheerleading. It was basically on a, not even on a, not a dare, just like on a joke, essentially. It was a joke and then I stuck with it. Um, but as far as my experience in Buffalo, I mean, I feel like, for the most part, it was definitely a generic experience, you know, you get like exposed to drinking and stuff, you know, very early. And everyone is like “Oh my God, this is awesome!” But I was part of that, um, small number of people that, I would say after a little bit, I was all like “I’ve had enough of this and I think there’s more to life than getting drunk every night.” And um, it definitely put a lot of weight on me to better myself. Um. Not like I was going down a bad path, but just, um, it definitely gave me the realization that if there was something out there that I wanted, I just had to go out and take it. And I had to work at it. And, if you put the work in or you put, or if you have the drive enough, like anything is possible. Um, I would have to say Buffalo, the University of Buffalo, was a fairly diverse school. Um, majority white, as, I would say that Buffalo is almost like a mid-west colony. So it kind of reminds me of schools around here. But, um, very diverse. Even Page 7 �internationally. Um, my freshman year, I lived on the international floor of my dorm which was because they ran out of rooms for normal people, so.. I ended up there and my roommates- one was from Turkey and one was from Hong Kong. And that was sweaty, so… ** laughter ** So I mean, it was, it was a little rough- the transition in the beginning. It was, I would have to say, one of those first nights in college. Just wasn’t awesome, but, um… I remember, actually, the 2nd night of my college career, um, my roommate had gotten invited to a party at the German house, um, on campus, well, not on, like right off campus and that was, I guess, if anything, that was essentially, like my first party of my freshman year, and everyone was from a different country and like it was, but it was cool. You know what I mean? It was just very different, um, and obviously I thought that I was going to meet like different people at college. Had no idea that it would be like that different so quickly. And, um, then, once I started getting into the swing of things, I started meeting everyone, made stupid freshman mistakes that I will spare from this interview, but, uh… I mean it was, it was good. There was no, um, I didn’t have any I guess, terrible situations, um… I tried the fraternity thing my first semester. You weren’t supposed to because first semester freshman aren’t supposed to pledge at UB. Um, so I thought I was such a bad ass, and… But then I mean, it was weird though, because I remember being in it, and I was in there for maybe 2 or 3 weeks, and I mean, we’re talking about like sleepless nights, just up late doing stupid shit the entire time and um, I like went to, uh, … the fraternity I was pledging had a party and they were just um, ripping on these girls like for no reason. Just ripping on these girls going just like *** our pledge master actually came down and he was like super drunk and he was talking about like these girls that he just, like, “Oh, I got her to blow me, you know, and I just tossed to her the side and like whatever…” And I realized, and I was like “I think the fraternity thing is really cool and all but *** misconstrued notions on how awesome it is.” Um, but I just thought, um, what means more to me? Getting letters on a shirt or being associated with these guys and I told *** “No disrespect, but I don’t think this is for me.” I mean, it was primarily because I thought that they were just terrible people and I figured, like, a fraternity is, like, it, it runs deep. It’s like the closest thing to a family that you have. I don’t want to be “your” family. It’s just not, I don’t, I don’t stand for the same things “you” stand for. So, um, I quit them. Obviously, I was like blacklisted from them the rest of my college career. And uh, then I ended up joining a business fraternity the next year. Um, the next fall, actually. And that was Alpha Kappa Psi (sp??) and I finished through that one. Um, it was co-ed so it was a little bit different. A lot cattier. And um, I mean I liked it because it was a fraternity and I still got that sense of brotherhood and had hilarious stories. I mean I, I feel like I have like classic fraternity stories with um AK Psi (sp??). Um, but I felt like it was a fraternity with purpose. You know, I mean, it wasn’t just a matter of, it wasn’t just a social group, it was a uh, it was a coming together of like-minded people for, I guess, to ah, pursue like personal passions and personal like motivations and um… I really enjoyed it and… Yea, I mean Buffalo was interesting because it wasn’t New York. It Page 8 �wasn’t like New York City at all. Um, it was an entirely different walk of people. Um, one of the girls, actually, from AK Psi (sp?), she told stories, joked around, but she wasn’t joking about how I was her first black friend. And um, actually, um, I dated one girl while I was up there and she was saying that I was pretty much like her third black friend or something like that. Like it always came up. *** Yea, exactly. And um, you know? It was, it was, it was the time, I mean, it was one of those… Yea, I guess class happened, um, for the most part, I was just figuring out who I was and stuff. And um, I guess ironically, um, I kinda became who I was while I was there but I didn’t realize it until I got here. Because, if anything, Michigan has been like the final exam and it’s… I would have to say it’s tough to go somewhere new and not… I guess, and not assimilate completely because, I guess I’ve reached a point in my life where I know certain things about myself that I like or at least I, that I value in my head as good. And… Those are things I just won’t let go of, you know what I mean? I mean it’s… on some degree it could be considered stubborn but I feel… I guess because I’ve been transplanted a couple of times now… You start to grab onto the things you feel identify yourself. You know what I mean? Um, I mean… My skin’s brown, so that’s always a *** for the identity issue but there are certain ideals and certain things I hold, I guess, I guess, I would say I hold dear to my heart that I feel um, you know, define me as a person regardless of like I guess the obvious stuff or you know, like, where I’m from. There’s just like the characteristics or the, uh, principles I hold… that um, I guess you don’t find everywhere. I didn’t realize that was one of those, I thought, I just assumed everyone learned the same set of values— some people just choose to ignore them. But, I have also learned that’s not always the case. And there are other values, you know, there are other values out there that, I mean work for some people, and there are others things that I’ve seen that are good, but, you know, aren’t for me necessarily, so… Seph: Um, actually that leads *** into, um, I mean, how would you, how would you uh, describe your own identity? James: In what respect? Seph: I mean, um, well you were just talking about how there’s things you hold onto and uh make you, I guess, the person that you see yourself as… James: Ok, yea… Seph: And I mean honestly, that could be whatever you want to do with that question. James: Well, I mean, I guess, uh, I’d have to say, I guess there’s, there’s two identities I feel we all have. We all have our American identity and then our universal identity in my opinion, um… As far as identifying myself, I’m… African American, Hispanic American, American American. And uh, I mean, Page 9 �but I would have to say, universally I’m I guess, in a sense it was like hard to accept, but like at the end of the day, um, as far as like upbringing goes, it was very ordinary, um, you know, I feel like I, I could be wrong but I feel like I had an upbringing just like anybody else, um… You know, forced to go to church every Sunday. You know, hating on it every Sunday. Um, you know, learning about all these traditions and all these, I guess, um, traits of gentlemanly conduct that were like infused into my brain and the thing I didn’t get was I didn’t see it anywhere else and I didn’t know what was like going on. And um… Oh, I forgot to mention this before… My dad is, um, my dad is 88 years old, so.. my dad’s up there. And um, I mean, truth be told, it was like one of those things that, when I was younger, you don’t notice the difference but I realize, now that I’m older, THAT definitely was like a huge thing because like my dad’s coming from like literally the old school. He’s coming from a very, like, almost structured gentlemanly uh code of conduct, you know, that we don’t have anymore and you know, I mean it really is.. um… And now we do the whole “We know what you meant.” Or you know, just get to the point… Like we almost have less patience for this almost societal dance, I guess that *** you know like being a gentleman is. And um, a lot of it communicates in the way that I dress and a lot of it communicates in um, like formal attire and stuff. Like I don’t *** all the weird little rules and stuff, and I don’t mean this in a condescending way at all, most people my age don’t know that they would even have to look for rules, you know, regarding this. Um even uh, even I would have to say, uh, like dating… There are certain things I just um, won’t do.. One thing that apparently blows the mind of everyone around here is um, I guess I come from a background where, let’s say I have a friend and he’s in pursuit of Girl X, or something like that. No matter how beautiful, or how amazing Girl X is, my friend has made it clear that is the girl for him and he’s chasing after her… I’ll, I’ll help him… I won’t pursue that. I feel like it’s ungentlemanly to go for another man’s girl, in a sense. And I don’t mean that in an ownership way at all. But I feel that it is more like a respect from one individual to another. Um, also, um in treatment of women… I feel like there’s, I’d have to say I’m an owner of like a modified chivalry. Um, I feel that women should be respected. Uh, and as far as, uh, female roles in society, I’m entirely against subservient women, um, I mean, I came from an all women’s household so, um, I obviously have a different view of the abilities and strengths of women and um… I truly feel that there, um, biologically obviously there’s a lot of difference, but, as far as ability goes, I mean if you’re thinking about sports, yes there’s a few hurdles that girls have to get past that, um, men don’t, but… um, for the most part I feel, you know, they’re, I guess almost to an extent *** should almost treat women better than men because I’m coming from a different, I’m almost educated from that old school on how to treat women. Um, but even in, um, the way you approach people, um, like not gender specific at all, uh, one thing I notice I do is, if I’m wearing a baseball cap or like that… When I talk to someone, like, let’s say at a store and I need to ask someone a question, I always take off my hat. And it’s a very weird thing. I mean even I noticed it Page 10 �like once in a Subway, you know, like restaurant. I take my hat off and ask someone a question, or like I tell them my order type of thing. I just feel there are certain little, there are certain little like, quirks to me that I um attribute to my upbringing and stuff. I mean it’s one of those, at first I thought it was weird, but I guess now, I guess now that I don’t see it so much I kind of value it as being a part of me. Um, little stuff like that. I’m sure there’s thousands of more little instances but, I mean I guess I’d have to identify myself as a generally good and moral person. Obviously not perfect at all. Um, but I feel that generally my motivation is the betterment of myself on the, you know, universal scale- like, so, morally, academically, professionally, etc. Um, and, I mean, as far as cutthroat nature, especially in the business world today, I’m just not about that. I, I’m.. I guess I’m more, I guess I’m more focused on like harmony and peace… Not in a hippie way, but, obviously I accept that, you know, things can’t always be happy… Things can’t, no, everyone can’t always win. But, you know, there’s no excuse for mistreating other people. I mean, even if they deserve it sometimes, I mean, essentially there’s, you know, there’s some occasions where there, *** essentially but, um, like just little stuff like being rude.. I just feel life’s too short to treat anyone less than anyone else in a sense, you know. Don’t just talk to people when you want something from them. Don’t just talk to people when you want their money. You know, just talk to people. In a sense, just enrich your human experience. That’s kind of, I guess, how I identify myself as just being a, I guess, in a sense, almost like a humanist romantic kind of thing, like… Everything is beautiful. Everything is terrible but you just have to make it work and get along, you know, make things keep going. Essentially. Seph: Ok. That’s awesome. Um. And then, I mean, I guess, I’m going to ask you a few more things. I don’t mean to pigeon hole you but, it’s just uh. Um. That was great. Um. But I guess, um, you mentioned a little bit um, on sort of religious upbringing. Do you… uh… how do you feel about your religion? How would you say *** ? James: Religious upbringing was uh, it was a little, it was a little awkward, I guess, because I was born and baptized Catholic. My mom was Puerto Rican, so… Obviously any place in the world that is Spanish influenced is Catholic for the most part. They were very good on selling Jesus and Company. But, um, when I was about, I must have been 5, my uh, one of my mom’s good friends invited her to her church and it was a, uh, nondenominational church. Um, however, I believe it had more of a Pentacostal style so, Protestant, and um… My mom went to it. And my mom is very, very religious. Very, she was very strict Catholic but she played it by the book, you know, she was very structured, you know, everything had to go along with uh what the Bible said. Once she got this experience of this more, in a sense organic, religious experience to her, she converted to Protestantism and um, I was caught in the middle because I was going to Catholic school. So I’m going to Catholic school 5 days a week and then I’m going to Bible Page 11 �school at this new place one day a week trying to relearn everything that I just learned over the last week essentially. And um, obviously when you’re 5, you get dragged into whatever your parents get dragged into, so… I, uh, became, uh, Pentacostal eventually I was baptized in the Pentacostal church. And, um, I would say up until high school is about when my mom was a little, I guess, less adamant about me going to church. Made it more about oh, if you want to go. And um, it would be one of those things where once in a while I’d like go, um… Actually just had a flashback to the one night, there was a very special like teen focus thing, um, I must have been 16 and I think that was the first night I ever got drunk. So I didn’t go and I felt really terrible cuz when my mom asked me how it was and I said “Ya had to be there,” and… Which is the most, uh, appropriate lie, but… *** (laughter) But it was um, I guess it’s one of those things where, um… Went to Buffalo *** obviously more churchy things. I eventually just kind of just lost the taste for um my mom’s church. I, I didn’t really like the people that were there. At least the more obvious people that were there and I, um, kind of resting in a school of thought where, I mean, I went to Catholic school my whole life. I, um, I know all of the moves, um you know all of the ideas, I know all of the principles and… I always, I guess, I always refer to myself as a freelance Christian, where if anyone were to ask me what am I, I would say a Christian. I wouldn’t deny it or anything like that. It’s like, nothing ever changed but I am less vocal about it because, for me personally, it’s kind of just my personal guide. It’s just how, it’s, if anything, it’s a system of morals that I choose as, um, as like my, um, moral structure but… um, I just, I guess I never mix with a group that I’m like that very big into and… Church always gets too religious. It becomes, just, um, it becomes just very routine and very perfunctory. Part of me thinks that’s not really the idea. You know what I mean? I mean I feel like we’re supposed to believe in a living deity doing the same thing at the same time every week may not be exactly what he’s into. And I mean, uh, it could be. I guess that’s like obviously the idea that most people like have. But I feel, if you live your life and, I guess, I, let’s say, let’s take a week out of your life and you can reflect and you see that every interaction you had with someone, a stranger or someone from *** and look at how you dealt with the situation. Look at how you deal with situations placed upon you. What did you act.. I feel if you act kind of with that, um, Christian background, that kind of like moral push behind you, I feel in a sense you’re always at church in a sense. You know what I mean? Like, you don’t just have to just be good because you’re singing songs and you know, doing all the prayers in front of other people. Like if you kind of have that, um, that Christianity in your life and in your normal actions, I feel essentially that’s like the main point, you know what I mean? So… Seph: Awesome. Um. How about, uh, politically? James: Politically what? Seph: Which way do you swing? Page 12 �James: Oh. I mean, it’s weird, actually. I guess if I had to choose for myself, I would have to, probably claim moderate. Which is weird because I’m black. But, um, I feel as far as liberalism goes, I’m definitely more into *** well, I once took a class that was divided into liberalism and conservatism *** Being a conservative is like being a father. You’re not as forgiving as the mother. You want people to kind of like toughen up and get themselves like out of their situations. And then liberalism is more like the mother, the nurturer, the one, oh you know, you fell down, let me help you up… That kind of thing. So obviously programs like welfare, that kind of thing would be under the Liberal umbrella. But, personally I feel there’s a mix. I mean with every dichotomy you can’t ever truly pick one side. I mean, even, I mean even between things like good and bad. I mean yea, you can try to be good all the time, but there’s some situations where you have to be a little rough. You know, you don’t necessarily have to do the nice thing. Well, nice and mean, I guess, would be a little more appropriate than good and bad. But, um, so I would say moderate. I agree that some people, well, I guess that all people should be given the opportunity to have some sort of assistance, uh, especially, I mean economically, like obviously it happens, you know, I mean as far as programs like *** what welfare used to be and like um, obviously are very good in my opinion. I do feel that while given assistance, people should not necessarily be held unaccountable. So, and more of like, I guess like a Republican or a Conservative view… You still have to get yourself out of it, but we’re willing to help you. It’s almost like… It’s like I am a fan of helping those that will help themselves kind of thing. So… I’m kind of right in the middle where, especially, um… Like, uh, I guess, uh, I guess since we’re in Michigan, the whole auto industry situation. Um, I understood and didn’t understand the whole bail out thing. However, I guess, in the long run, I guess I appreciate that it happened because… On the one hand, you can’t, you can’t disregard the well-being of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people based on the wrong-doings of certain corporate head men, you know. But, um, by helping them out, things have actually kind of turned around, so… Like you can’t punish them because of them, but you have to give them the money in order for it to get to them. So there’s almost like a catch-22 type of situation where the people that mishandled the money are the ones that are getting the money again, which, you know, doesn’t make sense, but, um… It sounds as though the federal government held them a lot, um, very accountable for everything that’s going on. I heard that, um, GM is now, um, back to number one car producer, um, brand in the world again. So, I mean, it’s one of those… It worked out, though, I would say it was more of a Liberalist idea. Um, and, I mean as far as the whole, I mean like the big Republican thing is like picking yourself up from the boot straps. Like, oh my family was poor, my grandfather worked really hard, so that’s how we got our money. That kind of thing. I mean that’s like the generic, like, you know, Conservative, like background story. And, um, I guess it’s like one of those things where I’m *** I’ve been in a lot of situations like where uh, you know, I’ve been blessed with a lot of assistance, like, from my family and just like a lot of support, but… when Page 13 �it comes down to actually doing things, like nothing was like handed, you know, to me. Like you have to actually work at it, you actually have to put the effort in. And, um, I guess… Seph: Well…I heard you were a vegetarian… James: well a pescetarian; I had the unfortunate duty of cleaning out a meat locker filled with rotten meat. Back in August my mom got our apartment painted and the painters forgot to re-plug the freezer and I am the one who discovered it and so obviously as a service to my mom, I cleaned it up and it was terrible. So ever since then I chose not to eat meat; just one of those…I was kind of traumatized and just thought: I don’t feel comfortable eating anything that could become what I saw so…I am a pescetarian, and I guess I realized that in a weird way, I kind of justified being a pescetarian after the fact of becoming one, just to see if there were any good enough reasons to return back to it; to meat eating rather, and I actually realized it sounds dumb...but I guess…you always hear about all the hormones and additives that they add to...rather that they put into beef and chicken and um I’d have to say in my daily life I feel: I guess I feel better, its easier to wake up in the morning; you don’t feel so crappy or lousy the next day and I mean its one of those where it could be a placebo effect or I guess I like to think that its not given that I wasn’t expecting it and then after a while I just kind of felt: ohh I feel a little better, um I don’t feel as lousy, I mean not that I woke up every morning feeling achy, but I just didn’t really feel…I guess as held down as I had previously and uh I like to attribute that to the… I guess lack of all the other stuff in my diet and being a pescetarian had an inadvertent advantage where as far as going to McDonald’s and stuff there is nothing for me there…so you kind of just cut out your crappy eating just by getting that. And I mean again, that just comes down to food and regulations and that kind of stuff but I mean I guess if I had to have a view on it: I understand that obviously preserving food but I guess I disagree with the effects on my body, that I assume are occurring…so I am not an obnoxious vegetarian. I don’t bash people that eat meat; I don’t try to talk people out of it at all. If I have people ask me, I’ll tell them but I mean I try to keep it pretty flexible; its easy to eat around stuff…I mean every restaurant has salads luckily and usually does have fish, so its pretty easy. Seph: Uh…well I guess last question on identity and this can be background or economically…how was growing up? What kind of…I guess…you know, rich? Poor? James: well, I guess from what my mom used to hint, we were the middle-middle class; we were at that point in the middle class where I mean obviously I guess that upper-middle class is not even a bad place to be now a days; like upper-middle class you’re doing really well, living comfortably, you know…you can afford to do things you like to do, but I guess in a sense you still have that discipline where you know…you obviously cannot spend frivolously. Then there’s lower-middle class, where it’s like yay! We Page 14 �live in a good neighborhood but we still live paycheck to pay check. Then there’s middle-middle class, where everyone neglects you; you are not comfortable enough to live like the upper-middle class but your not poor enough to get any help like the lower-middle class, and so it was definitely a struggle…I mean on my mom’s part…like it wasn’t like one of those things where I’ve been working in a store since I was eight years old or anything like that. Um…my mom was very big on providing for my sister and myself…I mean I guess I would have to say as far as how I was raised…I don’t know if it was a product of my upbringing but I guess I never really grew up wanting more but I also didn’t ask for stuff all the time…you know what I mean? Seph: yeah James: So…I guess there’s really nothing else that could have been added to my childhood that I thought would have made it so much better. But I guess I wasn’t the kid who was asking for a playstation…playstation 2, at every holiday when one came out…you know what I mean?...so I would say I was happy; like I said there was never a time when I was just wanting anything just because…I guess it was instilled in me to appreciate what you have…so it was easy like as far as eating and stuff; like there was always food on the table…you know…always family around, so it wasn’t a bad cake to be born into. Seph: Okay, were gonna take a slight change in pace…I want to know about how much you’ve traveled…and if traveling has basically affected your identity or just uh…affected your life…? James: well, I guess as far as far as the obvious travels: moving from New York to Buffalo and Buffalo to here; uh they were different. I guess as far as moving here particularly, it added to my identity because it in a sense identified my identity; it really gave it shape because I was able to contrast it with what was around me. In my life I’ve traveled…I guess I’ve traveled a bit. I have family in California, went over there. I have family in Atlanta…around Atlanta, so I’ve been down there. I’ve been to Philadelphia a few times, went to Texas a couple of years ago, just went to Hawaii last year. I mean I guess as far as the United States goes I still have a lot of sight seeing to do…but uh I’m interested in it, I feel when you…its one of those…traveling is one of those interesting things where yeah there’s people everywhere but its kind of different when you see them everywhere. You know what I mean…and its weird to think that were all human beings, were all built the same way but were not the same in any way, shape, or form. When I was 10 years old I went to London, actually I went to England for the first time, I haven’t been back there since but that was the first time out of the country…and obviously been to Canada a few times. And Canada was a good time; in Canada we had some good family friends and met some people up there and uh, London the same thing; actually London was a weird situation because my dad and his uh Page 15 �girlfriend took me and every…I was 10…so as far as eating goes all I ate was pizza and chicken nuggets…you know what I mean…like you’re a picky eater, even though you don’t really know what you like and you think you hate everything. I found uh…there was a pizzeria at the base of our hotel that served…well in England I guess the rest of Europe…what we know as a plain slice, is a margarita of pizza. Has nothing to do with margaritas but…you know…so I was like oh margarita! Cause I look at it…and I look at the description and I'm like this is normal pizza…and I uh ate every night that we were in London, by myself, at this one place because they had pizza. And like my dad and I went the first night, and my dads like “I’m not gonna come to London and eat at the same place every night”, so he sends his 10 year old son into the world by himself to do this. And, I remember…I don’t know if it was my first taste of…what do you call it…I don’t know…maybe socializing with the opposite gender. But I remember I had this one waitress every night, then like the day before I left I was like I’m leaving soon, and decided to start talking and um I guess that was one of the first times I was out of my element, had sort of gotten a little bit comfortable, and decided…what’s the worst that could happen if you just talk to people. And I mean your 10 so its not like I’m trying to sleep with her…you know what I mean…you can just talk to people. Uh…and I guess the next big trip. I used to go to Puerto Rico as well…I forgot to mention that; I used to go to Puerto Rico almost every summer and spend some time with my grandma for about 2 or 3 months every summer. How I don’t know Spanish is embarrassing but it kind of happens…so uh what do you call it…well I guess my next big trip was when I was 14...no I was…yeah I must have been 14; I went to Australia and New Zealand, which was really exciting and also with the rugby thing it was a little bit more prevalent over there so it was exciting to watch that and soccer. And I…uh well I mean Australia was a blast, but one experience that’s always been with me is…I went to stay with the Mayoree people when I was in New Zealand, and we stayed there for 2 nights and it was actually really interesting; we had a big group, I think there was maybe 20 of us or something like that. And we all slept in one room on the floor, I mean it was a big room…but we were just like on the floor, just like a communal hall type of thing and um the Mayoree people that we stayed with were just …it was the strangest thing…I have never had such a familiar feeling with people…like I met them and they kind of felt like family type of thing; like very easy to talk to, very friendly, just like very caring. And in my head I'm just like wow I am meeting you for the first time and we are getting along; like it is going both ways and it was I guess in a weird sociological way I'm just like wow people are pretty awesome you know what I mean…you can go all over the world and people are just people…you know…I don’t know anything about them and they don’t know anything about me, but we can get along and realize that we have things in common; like meanwhile our backgrounds are entirely different and I guess in a sense that was a part of…that may have been one of the things that I started emphasizing who am I, what am I offering the world in a sense, and also I guess as more as a support it kind of makes me think and reaffirm Page 16 �the fact that alright maybe I am doing something right, like I am meeting these people for the first time and their like alright with me type of thing…you know…I wasn’t trying to like kiss ass cause I was 14…you know…but yeah like I would have to say traveling has definitely added a lot to my identity because it reinforced the need for an identity as well as maybe even pushed me a little bit to be more concerned about what my identity was as far as what other people were seeing. Seph: very cool, and then going on the subject of identity…I guess growing up or in adulthood did you ever feel like you were treated differently? James: oh absolutely! I mean, I would have to say the story of my life is: I was never black enough and I was never Hispanic enough…like definitely a huge thing and then obviously I wasn’t white so I couldn’t play with them…but I mean…whoa…uh..but I mean its not like I grew up in Jim Crow south or anything like that. But it was one of those things were I guess when I was really young, you were…I was always the black kid playing with white kids; it wasn’t like a kids playing with kids type thing. But my neighborhood was actually very diverse, which I appreciated; id have to say the 2 most prominent nationalities…not nationalities…I’d say ethnicities were um…Irish and Pilipino actually. Which were obviously different ends of the spectrum, but I feel like if anything that definitely eased me into everything a lot easier. Hanging out with my dad on the weekends, I guess my weekends were a little more ethnic for me, but then my Puerto Rican side of my family has always been very involved. And it’s a very big family as well so; I mean that was always awesome. I would have to say I would have to identify more with my Puerto Rican roots then my black roots but, that’s also because my Puerto Rican roots are a little bit fresher because my mom is from Puerto Rico, so it’s a little bit easier to connect to that. And as far as growing up in high school, yeah, like it was one of those: oh, you’re black but you’re like not that black, like you act white you know that kind of thing, or like oh!, you’re Puerto Rican but you’re kind of black so, eh, you know what I mean. So like basically because I didn’t speak in the same, I guess, tonovenacular as everybody else, so that off the bat was a little bit weird. But, my mom; its almost like her mission in life was to make sure that I spoke properly, and I guess I feel like coming from where she’s coming from type of thing; to have someone speak properly and if anything, kind of like assimilate socially as far as like having tools to succeed, I mean like I would have to say in a messed up way, I think it has given me an advantage because lets say I have the same requirements as someone who is ethnically exactly like me but they talk with a little bit more of a, like you know, they have like a, they act like you know I’ve got a little bit more swagger, I have a little bit more, like you know…attitude in their speech but I can speak the language and speech properly. Eh I’m gonna have that little bit of that like, off the bat, like kind of like a push and personally I guess I really admire language and I think that language is very important and I also feel when you learn enough about language, you…like, I don’t know…language in Page 17 �itself is its own art form. And I feel that you can continuously learn more about a language which is in a sense I feel like my bastardized justification for why I don’t speak any other languages; is because I’m not done learning English is how I guess I kind of face it, you know what I mean so uh…its just one of those weird things where just growing up; I guess I’ve always been different and just because, like I said, I wasn’t black enough and wasn’t Puerto Rican enough, but I wasn’t trying to be anything else either so…for I guess a long part of my identity, I just thought that I was like by myself, you know what I mean and its kind of…but its like I worked with other people but I was never really part or anything else. I mean I guess its one of those: something that’s kind of carried on with me a little bit more, you know, my entire life, but I mean I guess its one of those that used to bother me a lot but now not so much. I guess I just figure there…like I said it is part of my identity; its part of who I am, and I can obviously mix with other people but there are going to be some things that are just for me, which I guess isn’t a bad thing… Seph: Going kind of on that same line, not to kill that subject, but uh…moving to West Michigan, was there a shift? Did you notice maybe a different sort of treatment? James: I noticed, well I would have to say one of the things I noticed right off the bat was that I felt that well generally the population is much whiter over here which…um…I mean, its like I’ve been to white towns before and stuff like that so it wasn’t even a matter of like oh, I don’t feel comfortable here, its just like oh, I happen to notice everyone here is white, that kind of thing. And one thing I noticed when I started coming here though, is I felt that everyone that saw me at a public place like a supermarket or something like that was… (door creaks open) Seph: what’s up? Ha, of course I'm doing an interview. James:…everyone that saw me, I felt was like very nice, so I felt that like especially, with me rolling in: my car has New York plates, I don’t look like I’m from around here or anything like that so I guess in a sense I stuck out, but people were…like overly nice to maybe compensate for it, which I don’t know if they were maybe other motivations for it but it was just like one of those: oh, everyone here is like really nice, I guess, you know its kind of how it worked. And I guess there were just simple traditionalist and ideological differences I noticed when I came to west Michigan, such as I mean, well I guess its like really religious based around here, which is cool, I mean whatever works, and um…everyone gets married when they are like 17 which is kind of different, I mean…kind of weird but um…I mean if anything I guess I was like walking in…it was almost like…okay it sounds dumb: its like whenever you see a sci-fi movie; I felt like I was the guy, who like came from the past or from the future, you know, I’m the guy who’s here so everyone has to explain what’s going on. I’m a straight man so that everyone can Page 18 �explain, oh this is how things work around here and have them explain to me. And it um, baffled my mind; I'm just like what is happening? What is this place? …It was very strange, I mean especially learning different things; one thing that blew my mind was the amount of confederate flags in this union state you’ve got here. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Its one of those hahaha, Michigan…you’re in the union…kind of. In fact, my roommate my first year…he had a big confederate flag over our couch and it said “redneck” on the bottom and I realized this is home but not really. It was just like one of those: this is really happening; it’s a little strange but you know.... alright I guess, and I mean at the very least I…my yearning to be open-minded I guess was very tested here and I mean its like one of those like...obviously I have no negative views of white people in general, but I realized that there are some pretty trashy confederate white people around here, and which is…well that’ll happen. And then on the other side too, which I feel like Grand Rapids is particularly guilty of …I feel like with the black and Hispanic population I mean, I feel like everyone wants to blame the media but I…every time I see a hood part of town in like Grand Rapids, it seems like a scene out of a movie and I’m just thinking: are you like this? Or are you acting like this, because it’s how you’re supposed to act? Cause Grand Rapids you’re not hood! I’m sorry; you know what I mean? Like Grand Rapids does not know struggle the same way that like places like Detroit know struggle, you know what I mean? And it’s one of those; oh we’re from Michigan, Detroit’s hard, so let’s be hard too. No that’s not they way it works; if you’re happy smile, you know what I mean, like if you’re having a good life you don’t have to pretend you’re not, kind of thing. Its one of those things; like I came over here and I feel like everyone kind of has their roles that they feel are…they are dealt in a sense, and I mean I’m kind of learning it, and learning to get along with it and work around it, but I mean its been different, it’s been very strange. I’d have to say; like I’ve been to Australia, New Zeeland, and Michigan is definitely the weirdest place I’ve been to yet, and its baffling, but I truly feel like its um…it’s definitely…what’s emerged at the other end of everything is a little bit more of who I am, and like I said I realized which principles I’m not willing to give up, you know? And it’s been a little bit difficult but um…I mean looking back at it now; it’s just like, I’m glad, you know; I could’ve just changed and been like everyone expected me too, or you know…done what I needed too to fit in. But I don’t fit in, so I pretend that I do. Seph: All right, well you got a couple more minutes? James: yeah. Seph: okay. I guess I’m going to just to civil rights, cause were dealing with that a lot in class right now…so were gonna move into that real quick to finish. But, I guess when it comes to thinking about race or ethnicity, are there any articles, books, films, features, performances…that stand out or maybe influenced you? Page 19 �James: ewh..uh… Seph: well…I mean you mentioned media and how it’s like how were supposed to act in Grand Rapids, but I mean is there like anything that was ever uh… James: ehhh Seph: we can come back to that. James: well I guess…well no. I’ll stick to it, I won’t pass, I’m not a pussy. No I guess…it sounds dumb…but…I guess I’ve avoided letting other ideas or I guess other influences define who I am. Um...growing up I’ve I always been like lone wolf status; always into things that other people weren’t, always just interested in different areas. And I mean; I guess if I had to say…I couldn’t pick a particular art form or piece of work that maybe helped me with my identity, but uh…I guess I would have to say; things that interested me were unlike what everyone else was into, not necessarily weird different, just not…I mean I didn’t meet too many other people for instance when I was younger…I guess its like I just cant close on a genre or a type but I guess the fact that I was always a little bit of a nonconformist and a little bit…uh well walked to the beat of a different drum, that, helped define me. But I could say that there was any piece of work that pushed me to better myself; in an identity point of view, you know. Seph: a couple more, bear with me. James: that fine. Seph: About discrimination…did you ever face any kind of discrimination growing up? Or even more recent? James: Eh, not to my face I guess, I mean I’m sure it was there; it’s always lurking in the shadows. But…uh…one time…my old teammate and I…his name was Wiccub (not sure if that is really what he says..?); I don’t know if you can use that so we’ll call him Joe, so me and Joe were in the car going from New York City back to Buffalo and we got pulled over by a cop and it was…we had been speeding…but it was one of those things where it was early in the morning, and I didn’t realize I was speeding and I was kinda just like keeping up with traffic and it was just one of those; ohhh in my head and he was like oh you were speeding so I’m thinking oh wow that sucks but what can you do…I got caught speeding; you know what I mean; like I wasn’t trying to be…you know shifty about it at all and um…so the cop checks my i.d. but then checks Wiccub’s i.d. and its just you know…which is weird cause… Seph: cause he’s a passenger… Page 20 �James: yeah as a passenger; you know checks his i.d. as well. So he runs us through the system. He comes back and then he uh…he says…well he basically asked me to get out of the car and I’m like okay fine, its not a big deal; all my papers and stuff were up to date and he just goes…uh…can you come to the back of the car; so I’m in the back of my car, I mean like behind the car…um which I thought was alright because of like the dash-cam thing so I’m not going to do anything; and the video will show that I’m not going to do anything and um…he’s like “I couldn’t help but notice that when you rolled down the window I was hit by the overwhelming odor of marijuana” and so…and I didn’t smoke, like I didn’t and so I was just like ohhh that’s weird cause I don’t smoke…and I guess the cop was like trying to…I assume the cop was trying to trick me into giving him permission to search my car cause he says “oh so if I were to look through your car I wouldn’t find anything” and I go “officer there is nothing in my car” and he’s like “but if I were to look through it, I wouldn’t find anything?” and I go “sir there is nothing illegal in my car” and so he’s like ohhh okay. It’s just like one of those why are you asking that over and over. I feel like he probably just wanted me to be like “fine go look through my car”, you know what I mean, but I know my rights a little bit better than that and um we weren’t giving him any time of reasonable cause or anything so…uh…yeah he gave us like a really hard time and um…were sitting in there car just like; what is going on? As cars are going like 90 past us; we’re just like, you know what I mean; like what is happening right now?! So we’re just sitting there and I’m like wow I’m actually kinda pissed off about this; cause it’s one of those; I never actually play the race card, cause I think it’s dumb, but I was like actually just seemed really fucked up, you know. And so I would have to say if there was one situation; that was…that was the one what was pretty…I guess black and white as far as…you know whether or not there was any discrimination…like I said I guess if anything its been more interracial versus interracial; as far as oh not black enough or not Hispanic enough, you know what I mean; you’re like ohh…you’re not really down with us; so in a sense I’ve been discriminated on all fronts, which is exciting, not many people can say that; usually you have one race to run back to, I had none, so… Seph: any discrimination for being a cheerleader? James: usually well um…I was a bouncer at Raggs to Riches, in down town Grand Rapids and I actually found out when they saw my resume, they saw cheerleader, and they initially were just like, NO! hahaha until one guy goes wait a minute these guys are usually kinda big; they’re usually kinda strong cause they have to like toss these girls; so then they’re like alright we’ll go check him out and I walk in and they’re like “big guyyy!” and then they’re like that’s who we’re hiring and I’m like and I have martial arts experience and they’re like alright that’s cool…um but that’s really the only instance that I know of particularly. But people usually look at me and are like ohh you look athletic, its not like ra-ra-shish-kebah like everyone assumes I do… Page 21 �Seph: okay, how about family? Did your family ever experience discrimination? Mom or dad? James: oh yeah. Um my mom when she first moved here she didn’t speak any English; so I mean like kids find any reason to make fun of other kids…so she was pretty much…she was screwed over when she showed up, she was made fun of; she spoke Spanish, broken English, you know, she like really didn’t know anything but um…however I guess on the inverse of everything there was a girl in her class that was like “Carmen, I’ll teach you how to…like after school let’s hang out for like an hour or whatever and she was like teaching her how to speak and stuff like that…so um yeah…my mom had good and bad experiences as far as like getting to school without any type of you know I guess formal instruction for speaking but I mean just imagine going anywhere and living there you know…and not knowing the language…like that’s one of those things were you can sort of think about it…but if you really think about it in an instance you think like oh that would be annoying but then you got to think about it as like a lifestyle; that’s entirely different, like its…baffling so…I’m sure that’d suck but you can’t really explain it any other way. Seph: All right, and final question: what comes to mind when you think of civil rights? And do you have any civil rights heroes? Local or national? James: well, I mean I would have to say when it comes to civil rights; civil rights are right up there with common sense; like I guess in a sense my problem with civil rights is I feel like when you start making a legislation that is assigned to a certain type of population while it does grant them certain powers it also alienates them because when you write and law and it says like “all men are created equal” type of thing just like very simple like tenants of American society; that should mean all men, are all mankind, you know what I mean, like some type of language use for everyone, but when you start specifying: alright this is for African Americans or this is for you know homosexuals and marriage now, its one of those: well yay! to do the right what everyone else could but you’re also writing a law that’s naming them as a type of person which I feel like that’s kind of…it’s one of those two steps forward, and one step back kind of thing, you know what I mean so uh…as far as civil rights I guess legislation wise, I would hope it was unnecessary but since it is necessary, I’m all for it but I don’t understand…I guess I don’t understand putting any type of human being down; like that’s just a concept that doesn’t register to me at all. As far as civil rights heroes...so stereotypical, I guess I don’t have to pick a celebrity, but whatever, one activist that stands out to me is Malcolm X. Solely on the fact that a lot of people are into Malcolm X because of how powerful of a speaker he was, how adamant he was with his beliefs; which obviously are very good points but he was able to, I don’t know how familiar you are with Malcolm X but his…the first, I would say…the fist major portion of his career he was very militant, very aggressive, and thought; he truly thought that blacks and whites could no co-exist; he felt there should be a black America and a white Page 22 �America, and you know kind of figure out the paperwork later, you know, and he wouldn’t deal with white people, he wouldn’t even mix with the population and he went on the Hajj to Mecca and while he was there was with Muslims from all over the world and he realized there were some darker than me, some my completion, and some white with blonde hair blue eyes and he’s like you know white people were Muslims; and he’s like their faith was at his level, you know what I mean; like at his level or more, so it wasn’t just like oh they’re tourists, they’re not just like checking it out, they are thoroughly invested in a belief system that he is thoroughly invested in. and I guess I admire him because he came out and was basically kind of like “I was wrong”, you know what I mean…and changed his views on everything and went about making those views more public, as far as what should be done. So I guess I admire him for being such a prominent figure in pretty much saying I was incorrect, you know, which no one does that; no one ever says that they’re wrong. So I guess as far as what’s been dug up and exposed about him: he was always what he said he was…you know what I mean…it’s not here’s the Malcolm X we thought we knew, here’s random exposé, you know that kind of thing. No, like he changed who he was but he stayed who whomever he said he was, that’s who he was at the time; you know and especially a man of his stature and position that’s very difficult to do; to say that, I mean essentially he lost his life as kind of a result of it. So, I guess if I had to pick one I would say him, and then obviously I guess another example would be Gandhi, who I guess would be a very general one. He’s another one who is a very generic answer and I mean obviously Martin Luther King was a big fan of him as well, but…he…I mean I guess in a similar light to Malcolm X, he was another one where; he was born and raised in India, educated in England, its when he moved to South Africa that he became invested in civil rights. He didn’t realize there was a difference in a sense, of the way people were treated because in India; Britain may have pulled the biggest, fastest trick on every body by convincing Indians that they had equal stake in their own country. And so Brittan realized there are so many Indians here, we have to get them on our side and working for us, versus a partite where it was very segregated and very like militarized on how they separate everything; they had to kind of work a little bit of a different system, and his experience was he went to South Africa because he was of Indian decent; I mean he was pure blooded Indian, and he was mistreated because he was brown, he was not a white person. So you have whites and non-whites essentially was how South Africa worked during the partite and he basically, once presented with the situation in seeing it; things literally black and white changed his views on everything and made it very, very vocal about it. It was almost like an over night change; where he goes “people should not be getting treated this way” and I mean, it’s one of those, he wasn’t as vocal about civil rights prior to this situation but once it happened that’s when he became I little bit more…he became louder and publically changed his views and really…you know…started his quest in and again eventually lost his life again because of it. Page 23 �Seph: All right sweet. Thank you, that is all the questions I have. And James, thanks for doing this and letting me get to know you better. James: No problem. END OF INTERVIEW Page 24 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78289888f09488506831e83e45151990.mp3 8a63606f7a06519687c6130861b35702 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Morton_James Title A name given to the resource James Morton audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Morton, James Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Morkes, Seph Description An account of the resource James Morton talks about his family" Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Discrimination against Hispanic Americans Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/723b9814a67b9b5c7f2bb1cc4b242621.pdf 003e1e835200ba03ec77bfc7bdf8b7be PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Anthony Moore Interviewer(s): Brandon Golden Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: October 19, 2011 Runtime: 01:03:04 Biography and Description This is an interview conducted to evaluate the successes, failures, and impact of the civil rights movement at home and abroad; as well as the prospect of how one man wishes to make an impact while serving his community as a future law enforcement office. Transcript BG (Brandon Golden): So first just tell me who you are and just a little bit about yourself. And we will start with that AM (Anthony Moore): My name is Anthony Allen Moore, I’m 36 years old and I am married. I’ve been married for 16 years and have a 12 year old son . I’ve been a resident of Michigan for most of my life and a resident of Grand Rapids, MI for a good portion of my life. I also go by the nicknames Tony, Antonio and some other names that we will get into later. BG: Alright, some conversations that we have had before you have mentioned some of your experiences in Benton Harbor and Chicago could you elaborate on those just a bit? AM: I was born in 1975 in Benton Harbor/Saint Joe area to my mother and father. From there I moved and grew up in Chicago, Benton Harbor, then Grand Rapids. Most of my time spent when I was younger in Benton Harbor then in Chicago. My Dad’s side of the family is from Chicago and my mother’s side is from Benton Harbor. Both me and my twin brother, oh I should say I have a twin, me and my twin brother stayed with our grandparents off and on for most of the years. BG: Ok. Growing up in Benton harbor and Chicago, could you elaborate on some of your experiences with the education system? AM: I didn’t go to any schools in Benton Harbor. I did start my early educational history in Chicago, spent a little time in Chicago. The school system there… we went to school in the same area that we went to projects, we lived in the projects, Alden Gardens in Chicago, and there was a school there. I can’t remember the school name, and I think that is where me and my twin brother started our education. The educational system in Chicago at the time was not a great educational system for African Page 1 �Americans, or inner city, or poverty level people. It was not geared towards that it seemed like, I remember not getting a good educational background there. There is an incident that I remember, when it came to counting, counting from 1 to 100, and we did it with Trix the cereal, and we would, every time you count you would fill the bowel up with a Trix and I could never get up to 100. It was always everyone else would have a full bowel, I would always maybe get up to 30 or 40 or something like that and couldn’t go any further. Um and then not being able to read well, not really doing anything quite well. I remember everyone being able to read if they were, especially if they were not black they usually seemed to have a better education than myself or other folks from the same area that I grew up in. We never got the help that other kids got. Even though the school itself was in or near the Projects, it was a public school so everyone went there, but it just seemed that if you came from the projects or were African American, you never really got the same attention that the other people did. I never got the one on one attention that I saw other students get. I remember kids coming in with backpacks and good school clothes especially again if they were not black or didn’t come from the projects that I came from. You know they had lunch boxes I didn’t have a lunchbox I always had the paper bag. We didn’t have backpacks you know, we just kind of carried you know whatever we had, then we had the same backpack for a couple years or whatever. We didn’t get new clothes every time school year came around or even different seasons we’d start off in the spring and usually you know, I remember having the same pair of the pants all the way through to the end of the school year. You had you know your pants you had during the week and then you had your shoes and your one pair of boots. You had to make them last, you didn’t get that. Me and my twin brother, my mom had to do two of us and she really uh didn’t have money to spare. And actually at that time we were living with my father’s mother during that time and she was not a wealthy woman by any means. So she did what she could, she made pretty much a lot of our clothes, I remember her making our own coats she made some of our shirts. She tried, she did a lot, actually some of our, she would try to help us with our studying. For me, it was not a good time because I didn’t learn, I don’t remember too much anything that I learned then I remember always asking for help and acting out because I never really got that help. I remember my mother was always talking to me about my behavior, or why I wasn’t doing what I supposed to be doing in class. Then I remember my mother always trying to uh find some means of getting me more help, and that really just wasn’t a good fit for me. I have told this to several people as I’m older now, I’ve said that I would never ever go back to Chicago for education nor would I put any of my children in that system. I do admit now that they have some of the best programs in the nation, but so far as their education goes especially high school and some of their academies their specialty schools and private schools and their universities, admittedly they do have some of the best programs, but when I was coming up they just did not have that and it seemed like it was just not geared for us especially if you came from the projects, black and uh you didn’t have money. It seems like whether you were affiliated with certain groups, gangs or whatnot you really wanted… it didn’t seem like you were expected to do much. I didn’t get the attention that every other kid did, especially if they were not black and from the project or especially from the area I grew up in. BG: Gong back a little bit, growing up you had mentioned gang activity could you elaborate on that and some of those experiences Page 2 �AM: Pretty much since I can remember, I’ve been affiliated or had experience with gangs. My family on both sides, my mother and fathers side had experience with gangs in both Chicago and Benton Harbor. Benton Harbor was more of a country, kind of a throw back from the south, where it was a small community and the gangs mostly developed based on family orientation and where you grew up. And we were in the kind of on the country side of Benton Harbor, more of the farm side of Benton Harbor so not a lot of industry going on at the time and they were going downhill losing a lot of industries and a lot of factories so we kind of grew up in the… matter of fact we lived on Main street in Benton Harbor, the main artery into Benton Harbor from the highway and that’s how we was known as far as the gang goes. In that respect my family were known for being in that area, and we had a lot of family members in that gang there a lot of cousins, young young young Uncles and they were all known for being in that area. And we really kind a took care of our own there. And really other than the exception of every now and then getting into it with other folks we really stayed to our own and usually made a living selling some type of narcotic or marijuana. But in Chicago it was more of your typical large scale crimes when it came to gangs. My father was in a gang, he started off before I was born, started in a gang with his brothers in the same projects where I grew up. He belonged to The Black Stone Rangers, who came originally from a mixture of The Bloods and The Black Panthers, they kind of, people who kind of came from both of those two groups and formed their own gang that also did, were involved in some motorcycle clubs as well. Through The Black Stone Rangers, I and my twin brother and I grew up knowing my father’s friends and other gang members and we just kind of grew and up and were automatically were accepted into that life style. Again because a great many of our family were in the gang on my father’s side and we just kind of followed the same path and we really didn’t know any other way. Where we were living was kind of segregated from the rest of society, the way most people were accepted to live so being in the gang made us feel like we had a sense of belonging. We were all poverty stricken, if you will call it, and we felt like being in the gang made us have strength in numbers. So far as the ability to survive when you don’t have a lot of money or a great education. We didn’t rely on those things. We didn’t rely on a job because we weren’t able to get those jobs and our parents weren’t able to get those jobs. That was the way of life. We fought for what we had. At a young age, we learned that where we were was what we had and we had to fight for it. We didn’t have money or jobs or think about moving out of the area that we lived in. To white upper class Americans, we were known to only be the poor Black youth because we had a lot of young mothers, I remember that, we had a lot of single parents and mothers. We did what came easy and that was learning to make a hustle. We learned to make money off out what we had. We did a lot of stealing and drug distribution. Being runners, as we called it. Making sure those other gangs or other groups didn’t harass our neighborhoods or that other gangs didn’t bring drugs into our neighborhood that we weren’t bring in. In the gang world, you are not allowed to bring drugs into another gang’s neighborhood because that violates certain codes within that gang life. You didn’t go to another hood because that would mess with that gang’s ability to live and to make money, the ability to survive so sometimes that would spark off some tensions between gangs in different neighborhoods. You definitely learned that way of life, almost like a hierarchy system, in some cases a militant type attitude you had your generals, your infantry, your foot soldiers. You had your O.G.’s , what you would call infantry, the guys that did what the O.G.’s told them to do. They were the ones that went in and dealt with anyone you had issues with. Then you had your drug runners or scouts for that matter, guys who would just check and see what was going on in the neighborhood. They wouldn’t necessarily get Page 3 �involved in anything. They would tell us if someone was doing something they weren’t supposed to be doing or if someone from another sect was in our neighborhood. We learned a lot of rules growing up especially at an early age. We learned how to negotiate the law and how to get around that and how to keep the law from getting involved in every day dealings. Sometimes it only meant if we got the Cops involved that it would only be harder to conduct business and make money. It was almost more of a danger than the other gangs we had to deal with. It was just a way of life, set in and something you learned at a young age, you know, how to conduct yourself in a gang and your ability to survive. You wanted to out age the statistic of dying before you got to adulthood. It was tough, to say the least, but you either adapted, or you died. BG: How about race relations and segregation. Any personal experiences, experiencing any of that? AM: Yeah. I grew up in three different cities, well one town two cities. In all those areas, there were different levels of segregation. In Benton Harbor, you know, Saint Joe and Benton Harbor are buttoned up right next together they are split by the Grand River right there, I mean Lake Michigan, I’m sorry and they have a, you know, a bridge that goes over one of the quarries and that’s pretty much the separation between the two. And everybody knows if you are from Benton Harbor, you are usually are a poor black African American. There were whites and Hispanics, but mostly poor African Americans. Again, a throw back from the south. There are a lot of southern people in Benton Harbor for some reason, I don’t know the reason, but everybody knows if you are from Benton Harbor you are black and poor. You usually worked in a factory of some sort or you had a farm. You know, you were on the low of the totem pole .If you were from the factory you were usually maintenance or janitorial or something like that. If you lived in Saint Joe, across the river, you, or right across the bridge, you were higher education white, higher income you also would have worked in the factory but as higher production, management, corporate banking, those type of deals. It was understood that not a lot of black people lived in Saint Joe. We were looked at as tourists. A lot of times, we didn’t even go over to that side unless they had a parade that went from Benton Harbor to Saint Joe and went back. Or if you were going to the beach you would go to Saint Joe. That’s pretty much the only time we would go to Saint Joe. It was literally down the street from my grandparent’s house, you go down the street and cross the bridge, but we didn’t go there. You knew, you automatically knew as soon as you crossed the bridge you had the Benton harbor police, right there. They usually made sure you stayed separated. You definitely made sure that you stayed in your own area and I had trouble with that. BG: So what about Chicago then? AM: Chicago, Chicago is interesting as far as segregation goes. It was different. It was within, Chicago being a big city, it was segregated more so not really rather you are black or white or class it had more, if you were Black, everyone was on this side of Chicago. If everyone was Italian they lived on this side of Chicago. If everyone was Irish they lived on this side of Chicago. There was a lot of different social groups in Chicago. If you were to ask anyone where the highest crime area was, they would naturally say the black area. I remember lots of time, where if we went to downtown Chicago in the entertainment district or business district even navy pier we were assumed to cause trouble. WE were assumed to have drugs on us. We were assumed to be looking for a rival gang to be getting into trouble with. As long as we stuck to our own side or our own area and we followed this kind of unwritten rule, especially when it Page 4 �came to law enforcement, if we outside of where we were supposed to be we ran into a lot of opposition whether it was law enforcement or other groups. For instance, Chicago has one of the biggest China town or Asian Americans places in the nation which was not too far from where I lived, but we were not allowed to visit there. If we did it was automatic trouble which involved a lot of fights. To give you an example, I had a martial arts instructor, my father brought me to this school to learn from this Asian American and I was going to learn Karate and I can remember where the school was it was not in Chinatown but close to it and it was also was not in our area of the projects or the gardens. My father took me to the school to train and you could just feel the tension in the room where it wasn’t accepted yet for the two groups to be together it was a monetary thing. It was ok for us to spend money but it wasn’t ok for us to be there without any reason or to socialize in that area. It was very,very interesting. It caused a lot of stress between the two, a lot of tension between the two. You would work or train with an Asian American right next to you and you would spar, but you wouldn’t talk. You would, you know, do all these exercises together but you didn’t say anything to that person and you didn’t say anything before or after. It was very far down the line from what was expected. Even though you had the two groups there you would stick to your own and there was no mingling, there was no hanging out. When we done we went back to our neighborhoods. I didn’t have Asian friends, as a matter of fact, I didn’t have any friends outside of my own race when I was a kid growing up at that time in Chicago. In my area even though there were white individuals in the Projects I grew up in in, it was highly unlikely if there were going to hang out with us. I do know that I had a few, but not many what so ever, very few white and Asian friends. There were not any Hispanics, they kind of just, stayed to themselves. Unless you are accepted as an individual there were no mingling of cultures not like there is now. The society of Chicago was much different when I was growing up there. BG: How about your experiences with law enforcement? AM: My experience with law enforcement, umm, well if there was any experience with law enforcement at the time, it wasn’t good. My experience was very negative. Very, very negative. I did not have a good relationship with them. Because of the fact that I grew up in the gang, the way that I viewed life was based off of, take everything and don’t give anything. Everything in my life was, I was taught to, fear the law, oppose the law, and the law is not my friends and they are not there to support me. Do everything you can to outsmart the law, run faster, be stronger. The law was the boogyman to all of us in Chicago and Benton harbor. They weren’t the protect and serve of law enforcement today. They didn’t care what happened to you, where you came from, how much money you made, your parents. Your life meant nothing to the law, the law, I never once in Chicago or Benton harbor just stop and instead of, just pulling me out of the car and putting me against the wall or always saying hands up first gun out second or excuse me, gun out first and hands up second. I never had a cop once say hey how are you doing today. To this day in Chicago and Benton harbor, never have I walked in the street and they just say Hi and they politely give me a nod. I never grew up asking for help from a cop. I have never once asked for help from a cop. I’ve been thrown on the ground, put up against walls. And knowing what my history was then, some of the choices I made were self- inflicted, but I always wondered why we were always told, why cops were made out to be such a bad guy. Growing up, I never saw that they were good or what they could do for me. My earliest memories of a cop is my mother, I was running the streets at the time, at that point I had good reason to stay away from the cops, my mother her car broke Page 5 �down in the middle of the street and my mother asked a cop if he could help stop traffic or do something to assist her to get the car into the driveway. I remember exactly what the cop had said “No I’m not going to help you, you need to get this out of the road before I write you a citation.” This cop was going to write us a ticket even though we were right by our house. I didn’t see any good come out of that situation with the cop. When I was growing up, the only time the cops came is when they were looking for you. And there have been many times when someone needed help for some reason or another and they never helped or got that. A lot of people were afraid of the cops and were afraid to report crimes they just weren’t there to help. When you only get one idea of what a cop is, especially when you aren’t doing all the right things, it helps to see a cop help. I know that I have done enough running from a cop to understand how to get a cop to chase you and how to get a cop’s attention, but never in a good way. A lot of times in Chicago, Benton Harbor and Grand Rapids you never, I never felt safe. I never felt the cop had my best interest at heart. A lot of times I’ve been walking on my own going to the store, a lot of times, especially in Chicago if I was in an area that was not my own I’ve been pulled over or walked over to and patted down and wasn’t even asked one question. They didn’t ask me one question before they patted me down and that was my experience a lot of the time growing up. In Benton Harbor, you were told by not only your peers, but even my elders, my parents, aunts and uncles, they would always tell you, don’t get pulled over by a cop. If you get pulled over by a cop, you better have money on you. There was a joke in Benton Harbor, if you get pulled over by the cops, you better hope that you go to jail. A lot of times you didn’t make it there. And in Chicago, kind of the same thing went and to this day there are a lot of unsolved crimes where cops have been suspected of abusing, and or and, doing crimes against people that they detained or arrested. And just let go. They would arrest them, drive somewhere and we would see those guys a few days later and they would be all beat up and you would ask them what happened and they would just say “Don’t get pulled over. I’ve gotten pulled over and any time I did something, I had a bad feeling, but you never wanted to get caught by a cop. I’ve crossed highways, ran away, hid in abandoned houses, I did anything not to get caught by a cop. That’s my young life. There’s still things I worry about now as an adult when it comes to the law. It’s abundantly clear that certain things haven’t changed. BG: Now you’re going into law enforcement yourself, you’re going to school for it. How do you hope to effect that? Do you want to make an impact on today’s youth? AM: I really do want to make an impact on today’s youth, I really do. I want law enforcement in general, to be viewed in a different way. I don’t want law enforcement to be viewed the way I viewed it when I was growing up. I have a better understanding of the way things work now than I did when I was younger. I believe, I truly believe, the only thing that keeps our society working is a couple of things. First of all, our parents, I believe they have a great impact or a huge impact on how our society works. Second, is your own beliefs. Third is law enforcement and then the government. I think law enforcement has a huge impact on the way society works. Usually they are our first defense when it comes to crime. I believe they play a bigger role than just crime prevention that they play a huge role in just keeping society safe and serving as a public servant and really just helping society in its day to day life and procedures. What I think could help with that is if law enforcement in itself, can learn to view people as more than just a demographic or an area of society. There are so many different kinds of people out there with different beliefs, religions, colors, etc. and law enforcement just needs to adjust to these Page 6 �different types of groups in today’s society. I see myself getting into law enforcement to change how people view law enforcement and how law enforcement views people. I go into this knowing that I still have a certain judgment of law enforcement and I still have a certain uneasy feeling or distrust of law enforcement, more so a distrust toward law enforcement, it’s not like it just went away. I still have things happen to me on an everyday basis based on my color that makes me, in some ways, still fear law enforcement. I still tell my son, to this day, to fear law enforcement first. Not because they deserve that fear, it’s because there are certain individuals in law enforcement who are not there for the betterment of the individual. I tell him, I teach him how to deal with law enforcement in a way that gives him the best chance of a positive outcome. Not because law enforcement is there to help us in every instance, but because I want him to survive and get himself out of what could become a worse case scenario. I think if we as a people, a lot of African Americans need to get into law enforcement represent us, law enforcement to this day still doesn’t have a good amount of African Americans to represent the community that their in. We don’t have very many black officers, female officers, or black female officers. None of these groups are very available in our communities and we need them in order to help law enforcement understand the background, understand the mindset, understand the cultural differences, the pre conceptions, the notions that African Americans have about law enforcement. I think we can break that and find a way around this gap between trust and fear and not only from the black community to law enforcement, but from law enforcement to the black community. There are a lot of law enforcement officers who assume that every time they pull and African American over, they are going to find drugs. Or when they stop us we are going to have a weapon that’s unregistered or when they get called to a domestic there will always be a case where a black male is beating on either a black female or a black female which is more common now, the white female, who is a target of domestic abuse in the community because there are so many interracial couples in the community. A black male, in my opinion, just based off of experience is still one of the most dangerously viewed encounters that a white officer is going to have, that is the biggest fear. I’ve talked to many white officers, since I’ve been working in this industry, that their biggest fear is the black male. I’ve been a target of that many times. We need to change the theory that if you go into an inner city and run into a black male who stands over 5 foot 7 and happens to be over 200 pounds that you are going to have to do something to them instead of talking things over first. I think the media has played a big role in making that easy. For me, it has made it somewhat harder for law enforcement and the black community to get along. For any positive outcome that has ever come from race relations between African Americans and law enforcement, and there’s some black guy running away from the cops for some reason or it is just assumed that every time there’s a robbery or something bad has happened there is a black guy who is being hunted down. It seems like every time you turn on the television all these crime shows, they are usually after black male. In the movies that come out, the villain is usually a black male. Who plays the pimp? Who plays the thug? Who plays the prostitute? I think the media to this day, still has not done enough and has sometimes helped to instill this notion in these officers about black males that by the time they graduate, they think they already know what they are going to have to deal with as far as African Americans. I know this from experience because as to this day, I’ve been that guy who’s been pulled over and law enforcement assumes that something bad is going to happen. I believe that law enforcement learns, they’ve been taught that, basically to come in with an idea of how to deal with racial tensions and I don’t think their taught well enough yet to think of the individual or to Page 7 �treat people as an individual. Not as a black male or a black female who doesn’t care for themselves enough to get out of an abusive relationship or you know, all these things. I think there has to be more reflection of what the true situation is in the black community. That’s why I think we need more black officers out there, not just of the African American creed, but just white officers who understand the situations being faced by the black community. Not that I believe that all white officers have the same ideas, but I think if we get more people from different backgrounds, we can help to broaden the idea of how to treat the members of the black community. We need to do that. I think that is why I have been so interested in law enforcement for the longest time because we need a different system of safety and enforcement and some sort of service that is there to protect us as a community. Despite my own hesitations or my own judgments on law enforcement, there is no way to make changes without joining the ranks of law enforcement. BG: Looking back, you know, on the way you grew up and the way things were then do you think we’re heading in the right direction or were stagnant or they are improving? AM: I think we are heading in a couple of different directions .I think America in itself has a selfcontained idea of how society works in America. I think that there have been many improvements in relations, but there have also been many setbacks as well. I think that certain individuals with the media, you have to remember the media is so big now, it shapes our ideas of life. The news, television, the internet, all of things have a huge impact on the way people think. In general, there are many people who made changes and improvements on how race relations go. We don’t have Martin Luther Kings, we don’t have, uh, many people. The Kennedys and other people. We don’t have the leadership or people who are willing to say the world needs to change like we had, you know, a couple of generations ago. But I think we do have a new group of people who are willing to step up, some of the younger ones, a new group of people who want to step up to the rest of society and say, you know, enough is enough. We need to get beyond this idea of separation and beyond this idea of who is better than who, uh, religious backgrounds, even based on if people are gay or lesbian. I think the world is trying to say, you know, for all of our differences, that’s what makes us the same. I think, through the media, unfortunately, that when something bad happens it is often publicized way more than all of the good that has been done. There are still many people who believe in that old system who are not willing to take part in change. There are many people who believe they have the power to change or to not make change, based on their beliefs. I think those are the people we have to worry about. I think there are people that are in power now and if they had more, we could go back, we could end in the same situation that we were in during all of the riots and the mass killings and bombings or church burnings or all of those things that made things happen. We could go back. I was just the other night, told a statistic, that is kind of scary where I think it was like 46% of all Mississippi Republicans think that interracial marriages should be banned. That’s a scary thought that, that many people think that race is so much of an issue that they need to put a stop to it. And I think there are many people who still believe things like that. I believe that in this country we still have this internal identity crisis or this internal struggle to identify who we really are as a people. I think it is very evident in race as far as race relationships and sexual orientation. We, as a country, believe in freedom of speech and freedom of how we should live , but we don’t understand that what we believe is our choice to believe and that we cannot contain it to ourselves. We think we need to press that belief onto others and we haven’t gotten beyond this idea of, Page 8 �you know, we are individuals first. We can’t put our beliefs on anyone or force that. That is what this whole country was founded on or was supposed to be founded on. The fact wanted to not be controlled and not be pressed by someone else’s or one individual’s idea. So we come to a different country and you know, we can say that we conquered this country, but in a way we left one country to come to another country to find our own identities and be free of someone else’s. I think we still struggle with that. I think internally we still struggle with that. On a broader scale, on a national scale, I think every other country has looked at us as, because we’re a young country yet, especially given the fact that other countries have been around and their societies have been around longer than America as a fully functional country. The rest of the countries look at us as we are immature, still young and how we perceive our way of life, our culture. We’re not identified as a single culture as other countries are. We’re looked at as many different cultures trying to co-exist. I think we have a long way to go to respect it, to truly respect it not as a military or industrial superpower and we’re not even that really anymore, but as a culture. America has not been defined as a culture yet and I think that’s unfortunate because we do have so many different cultures here and so many possibilities, because of that that we truly haven’t embraced yet. BG: is there anything like last thoughts that you want to add AM: Yeah I think that just for anyone it doesn’t matter what color they are, I think what it boils down to, we talked about race relations as a separate entity as a relationship just between people. I think one of the biggest problems we’ve had in this country is to identify that our culture and our history is based off one of same. We have had an identity crisis for way too long, and I think that we should not still be held up by what religion you are, what color you are, what sex you are, what orientation you are, um… we have to coexist. This country, as well as this world in fact, are not going to improve as making things better or making our lives more fulfilled unless we understand that it takes each other to do that. I want a world where my son, and his children, are going to prosper because everyone wants the same thing. Everyone wants to be prosperous, everyone wants to be fulfilled and healthy in every aspect. I think we are so far behind, we allow money, we allow greed, we allow control, we allow fear to dictate how we treat others. We need to go back to the beginning and understand that the only reason that we are a higher intelligence, on this planet, to this date is because we had to rely on each other. There is no separation when it comes down to it. There is no who’s better than who, there is no cultural difference. We are, in fact, a human species, so therefore there is only one culture in that. We are not a separate species, black, white, red, brown, yellow, we are still a human species. You know, uh, we look at the animal kingdom, we are so fascinated on how all these different types of animals within the same species, we look at cats and there is everything from a cat to a lion. We are amazed by the fact that, you know, there is so many different kinds out there we are amazed by, a parrot to a hawk. And we are fascinated by the fact that they are so diverse in every way. There are so many different kinds of everything out there, so many different colors, so many different sizes, so many different shapes, and we are amazed by the fact that this plant has so much to offer us in variety and we can’t see that same thing in ourselves. And I think once we can understand that there is so much we can gain by allowing ourselves to be one culture. And understand that there are so many gifts out there; there are so many things to learn about ourselves, by learning about each other. That once we get beyond those short comings of why we are different that we will truly then be able to embrace ourselves as a human Page 9 �species and be able to move forward from this point. I think we are stuck, I think we are, for so many different reasons we have not gone forward. Since the invention of the wheel we haven’t found anything other than … the wheel. The wheel is still one of our biggest successes. We haven’t gone beyond that, and medicine, for all these things we’ve done with medicine we still can’t cure the common cold. What’s stopping us from being a better people? What’s stopping us from saying, you know waking up one morning and saying, you know, “I’m not going to let anything stop me from being a better person.” When is the last time we went outside our front door and saw someone of a different color and say, I’m just like that person? That person has the right to live, right to breath, the right to be who he wants to be, he, she, who they want to be. When’s the last time someone has stand next to someone of a different background and said, “That’s ok”. I often wonder at times what we would do if we were all the same, if we were all the cookie cutter copy of one another. Would it be ok? Would we not have war? Would we not have class differences? If we all had the same job what would we do? If everything was a white sheet of paper what would we use as paper? Why do we have pencils and crayons and paints if it wasn’t meant to have an abundance of color? Why have trees that turn color? Why go to a forest, if not to look at all the different things out there? Why do we go to the museum if not to see what’s different? I think we need to understand that we have so many examples of why different is good, we don’t see our own success. We are so afraid of what comes after that. We’re so afraid of what happens if we are willing to give instead of take. I just hope that one day that we can finally come to a plan, and just embrace the fact that we are different, that we are going to be different and enjoy what comes next and not be afraid of it. And that’s pretty much all I have to say about that. BG: Alright well thank you and it was good. Page 10 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d2f8e3b61be44bd940da241d487c5b71.mp3 46a4e8cc387c7a9e64bc411b0331a481 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Moore_Anthony Title A name given to the resource Anthony Moore audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore, Anthony Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Golden, Brandon Description An account of the resource This is an interview conducted to evaluate the successes, failures, and impact of the civil rights movement at home and abroad; as well as the prospect of how one man wishes to make an impact while serving his community as a future law enforcement office. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-19 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/219f62b64221bf0a5602606da6931317.pdf 698cdcb55628d91b7d24721eb0dd4f6f PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Doug van Doren Interviewers: Shae Johnson, Daniel Gotshall, Derek Wolff Supervising Faculty: Joel Wendland Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/13/2011 Runtime: 00:58:09 Biography and Description Doug van Doren is a pastor of Plymout United Church of Chrrist and he is involved with the community in a number of areas. In this interview he describes experiences of discretionary practices and prejudice toward people of color in the West Michigan area. Transcript Derek Wolff: My name is Derek Wolff. I’m here with Dan Gotshall. Today is December 13, 2011. We are here with the Reverand Doug Van Doren. (To Doug) We are here today to talk about your experiences within the Civil Rights Movement in West Michigan. DW: Before we can do that, we have to get to your basic information. For the record, could you please spell out your full name? Doug Van Doren: Douglas, D o u g l a s Van V a n Doren capital D o r e n. DW: Thank you. Could you give me the date of birth and the place that you were born in? DVD: I was born in Adrian, Michigan, July 13, 1952. DW: Thank you. Could you just tell me briefly about your parents and any sibling that you might have? DVD: Parents are deceased. I have two older brothers and an older sister and a younger sister, so there are five of us all together. DW: What are their names? DVD: Chuck, Carol, Steve and Pat. DW: Ok, thank you. Are you married? DVD: I am married to Colleen Mahone Van Doren, and we have a fourteen year old son, Aiden. DW: Ok, thank you. Your education, going back to high school and did you attend college at all? Page 1 �DVD: Graduated from high school in 1970, attended Eastern Michigan University, graduated with actually a bachelor’s of social work from there in 1975 and then went to grad school at the University of Chicago at the Chicago Theological Seminary. Graduated with a Master’s in Divinity from there in 1978. DW: Ok, your community involvement, professions and any political affiliation or preferred political party. I’d imagine, and I’m sorry to cut you off here, your community involvement and profession that a lot of that is going to revolve around the Plymouth United Church of Christ. DVD: Right, I’ve been a pastor of Plymouth United Church of Christ since 1978 and I’ve been involved with the community in a number of areas. I’ve been a board member and am currently still a board member of the Grand Rapids Urban League. I’ve been involved with the board of and chaired Planned Parenthood of West Michigan. I’ve was involved with Concerned Clergy here in West Michigan and over the years a number of other local organizations and issues. DW: Ok, thank you. I guess, when did you first come to the West Michigan area. I came in 1978. DVD: I was born on the south-east side of the state, came here in the fall of 1978. DW: Ok, and you’ve basically been around the area with regards to, well essentially all of your life except for time spent away at school, correct? DVD: I’ve been in Michigan for that time. The first part, until seminary, was south-east Michigan. DW: All right, thank you. That clears that stage of this process. I guess what I’d like to talk to you first about is just your personal history within the civil rights movement as well, so can you just go back to a time; do you remember the first instance or involvement that you had within a civil rights movement? DVD: First direct involvement, I was after the big civil rights movement in terms of racial justice. I was a child, or at least Junior High, when King was active, so probably my first organized involvements were in seminary working with a number of African-American students just dealing with what appeared to be discretionary practices and prejudice in relations to how people of color were treated in UFC and parts of the seminary community. DW: Ok, I guess, how have you relayed some of those experiences to discrimination of sorts within the Grand Rapids community? DVD: Well, the more you see, the more you learn. And so, having direct involvement with people of color and their perspective began to shape my understanding; as a dominant class person you can’t experience or know those things directly, but if you listen carefully and if you’re trusted by minority folks in these situations then you can get a glimpse of what it’s like, how they see the world and stuff that we dominant culture people miss. So, I think that was probably, that learning process that is still going on of course, at that point. That also branched out into, we were working very hard with divesture issues in South Africa and I was working with that in seminary, which has a lot of links to local discrimination, to discrimination of African Americans here (U.S.). So when I came here I also continued the work, trying to get corporations and so forth to divest from South Africa, which we were successful with the city with some of its funds. Page 2 �DW: Thank you. Dan Gotshall: I guess what it is you think that you think kind of influenced you to go into this kind of area? DVD: That’s a great question; it’s a tough question of course. It’s a basic culture. My parents are, my father especially, they were politically in a different place, politically more conservative but socially they were, for them it was all about fairness and equality. In that regard, they both had a great sensitivity to that. Probably my mother especially, and so even though I don’t remember specific lessons about people of color and where I grew up there were very few people of color. I grew up in rural Michigan; still, that culture of fairness was really, really important in my family and then, my Christian beliefs, as a clergy, for me that is basic to the gospel. Justice, all are God’s children and so discriminating against people and setting up systems that discriminate against people is just anti-biblical as well as far as I’m concerned. DW: Do you ever infuse any of these personal beliefs and also, when you talk about Christianity, it’s just doing the right thing, trying to send the right message; do you infuse any of these into your sermons when you preach? DVD: Oh sure. The church I pastor is very socially active and it understands Christianity to be a liberation kind of a perspective and that Jesus really is the liberator in many kinds of ways. So, it’s central to my understanding of the gospel, therefore to my preaching. Hopefully it goes that way at least. DW: Let’s see here. Let’s talk about your upbringing a little bit as well. You mentioned you have multiple siblings. When you were growing up, did any of your siblings; did any of your family members, any of your friends, really just go through any discrimination against them, or anything along those lines? DVD: I grew up on a dairy farm in a rural community, a sizeable dairy farm. My oldest brother and sister are adopted, which may be, you know, sort of right from there it was clear there was no difference in terms of how valued or loved they were as compared to us, so maybe right from the beginning there was that sense of, you know, it didn’t matter ones origin and so forth, we were equally valued. I don’t remember, and in my family, we were dominant culture people, you know, we’re white, we were rural people. but were dairy farmers and the hierarchy of farmers is just crazy, but there’s a hierarchy there to so the dairy farmers were, as I look back at it, probably at the top of the hierarchy in that community. But, interesting, and actually I went to a one room school house for the first four years of my life, and in the Adrian area there is a fairly large number of people who settled there having been migrant workers, so there’s a fairly large Hispanic, particularly Mexican, population there. There was a family that went to the same one room school house that were on the other side of the school a few miles away and they had a bunch of kids, and some of them were my age. We were allowed, as kids, their parents spoke no English, and I would, I remember going to stay with that family, I’d stay overnight with my friend there, they had chickens in their attic and so forth and culturally were very different from us. But my parents allowed us to do that. We didn’t think anything of it because I was pretty young. That was a really helpful early cultural experience and my parents had no qualms at all about going in to what was the Mexican community for restaurants and it wasn’t like I had a sense that some people stayed out of that Page 3 �community. I think those are just subtle ways, or I guess not so subtle ways that I didn’t understand at the time as a child, but that I took in. DW: Also, when you were growing up, was there anyone that you looked up to within the Civil Rights Movement, or going to college anyone along those same lines? DVD: Well, certainly as I got into later high school and college, certainly Dr. King because that was very vivid at that point, but also Malcom X. I think Malcom X is really underrated in relation to the whole Civil Rights Movement. I think his legacy, it wasn’t a challenge of Dr. King but is was expressing that that whole era of black power and so forth was a really important expression and Malcom X was really key. I still think his autobiography is very powerful and everybody ought to read it. It goes through his transformation and his early influences and Marcus Garvey, going back, certainly W. E. B. Dubois but also Howard Thurman. Howard Thurman is really kind of a mystic, very powerful figure who started the Church of All Nations in San Francisco. He did a number of writings and in fact he wrote Jesus and the Disinherited in 1947. It was really a precursor to the African American liberation theology, powerful, powerful stuff so he’s one that I very much admire. He doesn’t get any credit in terms of the whole justice struggle for African-Americans but he was really very key I think in that. DG: As your career moved on and as you moved into this area, how did your thinking about your identity change and grow? DVD: I guess it grew and solidified as an ally. That’s really because really early on, I was also involved with… even I was out of high school for a year after college, I was out a year before going to college and then that year I was involved with wider church things and got very involved in justice for gay and lesbian people. So I was a youth leader in our denomination state wide structure and so at that annual meeting I was really involved with that so I began to see the need for and the role of allies in a number of liberation studies. You know, that, that role and the identity, the need for that, but also the identity, clarity about the identity in terms of white privilege, because one can’t do this work without doing work on yourself, that’s where most of the work happens for dominant culture people so I think doing that work, understanding that work needed to be done and continues to need to be done is a big part of it. My identity as part of that white privilege class, that takes a lot of work. DW: I’m glad you brought up the concept of the ally, because one of the things I had planned on asking you, and this is one of the things I’m trying from Colette as well, is do you consider yourself to be an ally of the LGBT community? DVD: Oh definitely, definitely. That’s, for whatever reason, just early on it seemed to me that the way people are is the way people are and what threat is that to others. So being able to stand with LGBT people is really important. That’s certainly an area where the church that I pastor has been very strong in as well. We’ve influenced each other I think, and the church’s very, very early public stance of openness toward LGBT people. DW: And for you personally, has that always been a mantra that you’ve had, since a young age, or has that developed in time? Page 4 �DVD: Well it’s developed. You know, at a young age you don’t understand those kinds of things and I was at time when homophobia was rampant, especially amongst high school kids when you’re dealing with your own sexual identity and so forth. Then, even more than now still with many people misunderstanding what orientation is as opposed to same sex attraction from time to time, which everybody has along the way. All that confusion is rampant within adolescent kids; that was the case in the culture that I grew up in. But by late high school or certainly by early college in that year I was off, just came to understand and I guess got to know a few gay people, though I don’t think they were “out” gay at that point, but I just had a sense that that was the case. It was early 70’s, it was just beginning to be kind of an issue, at least amongst folks who were not gay or lesbian in that community, among straight folks, it was just beginning to be a justice issue. So from there on, it was important. In seminary, I went to a very progressive seminary with gay folks there, as well as people of color. It was really a heady mix. So, I think I just continued to grow, and as I grew in terms of my biblical understanding it also deepened, I think, that conviction for justice. DW: When you say that this is something you personally believe in, and that your church is behind this, how has that been received by your congregation? DVD: Well the congregation actually made it happen. In my church that I pastor and the denomination that I am in is pretty much structured from the bottom up, so there’s a great deal of local church autonomy so the church votes on everything. If it’s going to be a policy of the church, the congregation votes. So, really in the late 90s we had no openly out or gay people in the congregation at that point. We had parents and siblings and so forth of gay folks. We decided that this was an issue that we really needed to look at very carefully. So, we did a yearlong study on what we called then homosexuality in the church. Then, after that, we did another year of study on becoming an officially open and affirming congregation. Having done that, we went to the congregational meeting having a resolution to become open and affirming, and the congregation voted. There were two extensions of one “no” vote to become open and affirming, and that was in 1998. Part of that means that you are open , not just with LGBT people, but you’re clear with the community that that is your stance, the feeling being that, because the church has been and in many quarters is still a big part of the problem and the discrimination against gay-lesbian-transgender people, then it needs to be clear if it’s not. It needs to be open and affirming of them just as they are, just because we’re assumed to be against LGBT people if we don’t. So that was what happened and we continued to grow in that regard and with that understanding and even though, as I said, we started out without any “out” gay people in the congregation, 25-30% of our congregation now is LGBT. It’s become who we are; LGBT folks are part of the full life of the congregation, serve every place and there’s absolutely no discrimination about who serves where, including nursery and youth groups and all that kind of thing. DW: So now within the congregation itself and within the community, have you received any negative backlash because of it? DVD: Well, within the congregation when it happened a few people decided to leave, though actually more people decided to come, because that was what they hoped and expected out of a church. Yeah, we certainly, it’s amazing the kinds of negative stuff that comes from the community and people who claim to be , in this case, Christian, but just say all kinds of God-awful stuff in the tape machine and Page 5 �quote scripture to me like I’ve never read it. And, you know, a few threats, but it’s not a few threats toward everybody. I’ve had a few threats doing racial injustice work differently, that I have to work with LGBT issues, so yeah you get that and people who think you’re just crazy and can’t possibly be Christian, but truthfully, I’ve gotten much more support than negatives by folks, and they tend not to be church folks, some of them are, but a lot of them aren’t because they’ve given up on the church, but at least say “yeah, that’s what the church ought to be doing.” So, really probably overall more positive than negative. DW: Have you ever felt that your personal safety has been an issue with this at all? DVD: My general motto is, if people make the threat, they’re probably not going to follow through on it. Only one time with a threat and this is in terms of racial justice issues, I showed a copy of what I received to a fellow clergy, and made a copy of what I’d received just in case something happened. At that point I didn’t feel that it was appropriate to go to the police with it but I definitely wanted somebody else to know and I didn’t share it within the congregation because I didn’t figure that it was, you know, it gets everybody nuts and takes it off what the real issue is and that’s the justice part of it. If there would have been threats made against my family or anything like that, and we live a little ways away from the church in our own home, and it didn’t feel like I wanted to give it any more credence at all really. Fortunately, that turned out to be right. DG: Going with some of the past things you’ve said, what kinds of changes within the community have you seen throughout your involvement? DVD: Well in terms of racial justice issues, really early on part of some of the instances I was involved with were a school superintendent here who is African-American, and this was the early 80s, who is pushed out, and all those issues, there are a lot of issues going on in addition to perceptions caused by one’s race, but that highlighted some of the racism in the community. What I’ve seen is many, many people in the community becoming now really aware of what racism looks like, especially institutionalized racism, which is the definition of racism as far as I’m concerned, and doing a number of things to try and combat that. The business community really, Bob Woodrick was early on really involved with that. I chaired a committee, the Grand Rapids Urban League, which began to really look at racism in the community and out of that, David Bach was a part of that, and out of that came the Institute for Racial Justice, out of race the Grand Rapids Center for Humanism and they did a great deal of really, really fine work with the Racial Justice Institute. Bob Woodrick was working in terms of hiring and in terms of the number of businesses, and so now in the community there are a great number of businesses who are very involved in hiring in non-discriminative ways, putting their law firms, other kinds of firms, businesses of all kinds putting people through cultural sensitivity, all kinds of courses. So there’s a lot that has happened in that regard and I think many more people of color in leadership positions and in positions of more power, influence and responsibility in corporations within the community. Is it a thing in the past? Of course not. You look at economic issues-it’s alive and well .A lot of people’s perspectives, still the discrimination differences based on color is there, if you look at school system and the lack of support by the public school system of Grand Rapids by a number of people especially a number of folks with means. I think you still see lower expectations of people of color within the general public, which is still racist. Page 6 �DW: Going back for a sec, could you please give me the dates served with the Grand Rapids Urban League that you were a member of? DVD: Well, I probably began in the Urban League in about 1981. I’ve been on and off, more on that off most of the time since, including I’m on now. I chaired the Urban League two years, and that was probably…2003, 04 maybe, 2003-2005, somewhere around there. DW: Thank you. Let’s talk a little more about your church right now. Have there been things that you guys have done, to just, reduce discrimination within the surrounding area aside from just hunger drives or to fight social injustice as well? DVD: Well, we’re socially active in terms of mission, which we see in terms of helping individuals and social justice, which we see as trying to change systems. We have a just peace task force that continues to be very active, and the biggest thing that we’ve done, which was local in one way but was really opposing the involvement and the invasion of Iraq. We began with a whole wage peace initiative so we were very involved with that. Beginning with that and still we’ve been very involved with a number of groups and agencies that are involved with anti-discrimination and teaching peace. In addition we’ve used church property to build housing for people with chronic mental illness. Talk about a group discriminated against, in all kinds of ways, in terms of public perception, housing, just everything. So, (we’ve been) directly involved with that group in terms of finding housing and then advocacy on their behalf, or with them. I hate to talk about “on people’s behalf” because it makes them sound like they don’t have power. They do have power; it’s more a matter of standing with them. We also, it terms of more direct kinds of ways we’re also a host for Family Promise, which is a group that houses homeless families in churches on a rotating basis. That’s more of a direct service but it’s working directly with many people. Many people of color are caught up in the whole economic disparity that has been rampant, especially for people of color, for a long time. Other than that we try to be as a congregation very involved with local proposals, like when Grand Rapids included sexual orientation in terms of protected class, in terms of non-discrimination. When things come up in the community that are issues with racial injustice, we tend to be both as individuals in the congregation and as a community, we tend to be pretty involved with that. DW: Thank you. DVD: In terms of talking about the church, and this is an extension of the church, an extension of me, I was part of the group that organized Concerned Clergy, which organized in 1995, 96. There was a whole lot of discrimination at that point against gay folks, so a few of us got together and decided that as pastors, we really needed to take a stand and speak to our churches, to our church communities and to the community at large that LGBT people ought to be part of the full life and ministry of the churches and the community. Not as objects of mission, but as full particiapants. We began gathering clergy and had a sizeable group that did a letter to the community that was published on the front page of the Sunday issue in, it must have been spring of 96 or 97, and at that point, talk about shifts within community’s perception. Prior to our letter, which was signed by about 60 or 70 clergy in West Michigan, and people were amazed that there were that many clergy who were 1) supportive and 2) wanted to sign. Letters to the editor, prior to that, were very anti-gay and they acted like they were Page 7 �speaking on behalf of everybody, that their perspective was the community norm. People who were supportive of LGBT people were writing more defensively. After a year, after our letter to the community came out and we were doing much more support and a number of other things for people, letters to the editor written by people against LGBT people seemed to be defensive, they were no longer speaking on behalf of the whole community. If you weren’t looking for it maybe you didn’t see it, but it was a very clear shift in the community’s perspective, and right around that time is when I take that this community began to shift from just assuming that the Bible and everybody was against LGBT people to having to think about that differently and at least begin to question that that’s not the case. There are some times when you see community shifts and that one for me was pretty clear, that moment in time. DW: Have you ever taken, or thought about taken these beliefs that you’ve certainly infused within the community to sort of a national level? DVD: Well, we’ve been involved and I’ve been involved with, especially our denomination and other denominations in terms of our church’s experiences as well as being involved in advocacy levels on the national level both with our own denomination and with the welcoming movement. I’ve attended a couple times; it’s called Witness our Welcome which is a national gathering of welcoming individuals and welcoming churches. I’ve had a role of speaking there with strategizing and our experiences, so that’s an important thing to try to do this at whatever levels can be done. DW: Gotcha. Sort of just the fight against discrimination today is a lot different than the 1960s. Then it was more of a racial thing, today it’s more fighting for causes, more anti-war, as we’ve been talking a lot about the LGBT movement. Can you sort of compare the two at all or is it more of a different era. DVD: Well, it’s, discrimination and prejudice discrimination and how they’re institutionalized have many, many common threads. All of them at baseline are devaluing people, based on something that is a bias of the dominant culture and so in that they have a great deal in common. As a dominant culture person, I can say that they have a lot of things in common, but I can’t speak for, I can speak for differences I observe but I can’t speak authoritatively for the differences that people in those various groups that have been discriminated against can. A lot of folks sort of lively put the struggle for gay rights and the struggle for racial justice in the same place, and they are very different. There are allies in both of those communities. The dominant culture wants to either put them together as the same struggle or they want to pit them against each other, neither of which is appropriate. The bottom line is the dominant culture’s desire to keep things the way they are and it’s usually, or often an unexamined assumption on what’s most valuable, what’s most important, and then those have become institutionalized. Some of the best people and some of the most non-discriminative people I know are the heads of some of the most discriminative corporations I know, because that’s where racism is institutionalized. The call in all of these areas is to be anti-racist or anti-sexist or anti-orientation bias in that regard. Some of the people in cultures, some of the cultures that have been most discriminated against, like African-American cultures, say yeah, these issues of liberation and discrimination are much the same. There are also some big differences but we of all people ought to be sensitive to other people’s issues around those issues. For me, it’s an issue of justice overall and the step that’s further for me is well being for the whole community because the whole community, including the dominant community suffers when the gifts of various people and cultures are not included. So we need for the best of the whole culture overall, we Page 8 �need the gifts because hopefully there is a selfish part of it as well that really sees the value of those, from the gifts that people bring across the board. That’s what makes these issues and this movement partnerships rather than missions or “on behalf of”. Nobody wants to be, nor should they be, objects of missions. That’s a subtle but really powerful form of discrimination as well. It says, “We need to do this for you, or to you”, we need to do it for ourselves as well and we need to do it in partnerships so everybody gains. DG: So you feel like in the community as a whole you’ve seen a lot of progress? DVD: There has been, there has been a lot of progress. I don’t think can be denied. Certainly, overt racism is much less than it was. There’s still a lot of overt individual prejudice and prejudice that gets mouthed so that people of color certainly get called names or get turned against or turned away from, devalued in many settings, both institutionally and by individuals but not as much as has been the case in the past, so there’s progress being made but that’s not to say that it’s not happening. When it becomes ingrained economically as well, it’s really a component of economic issues and poverty but it’s hard to see where all those threads run and how exactly, clearly there’s that legacy of discrimination and its taken root in disparities, economically as well. In terms of the LGBT arena, certainly great progress made there as well. There are many, many people who are willing to stand up and say, “Discrimination against LGBT people is absolutely wrong”. There’s a lot more places where LGBT people can feel safe and welcome. A lot more church communities now. When we became open and affirming we were the only church outside of the gay-denomination church in town who was openly welcome to an affirming stance of the church. Now there are a number of them and there are more who are welcoming or at least gay friendly. So again, there’s a lot of change in that regard as well but you still get the backlash. Look at Holland. They weren’t willing to pass a, to include anti-gay in their protective class and state-wide, the referendum that made it clear that only between a man and a woman was an official marriage so there’s that backlash, there’s still a lot that still needs to be done. DW: This might be a difficult thing to answer but is it possible for you to measure success in terms of fighting against racial discrimination, social injustice and just the protests of anti-LGBT community? DVD: Well, it’s possible; it’s probably not advisable. It’s possible in the sense that yeah, you can look back and say, “Some things have changed, and some things have changed for the better.” There are times when unfortunately you look back and say, “Gee, things have not changed for the better,” but for me, and I suppose this comes out of my religious stance as well, you don’t do it because you’re certainly going to make a difference, you do it because it’s the right thing to do. There was a great interview, I think it was Daniel Berigen, who was very involved from early on pre-60s but 60s and 70s, all the way through with anti-war, justice of all types and as he was getting older, his years, and this was probably in the late 90s, he was asked, “So many other people who were involved with you early on have dropped out of the movement. They got discouraged. Why are you still involved?” And he said to them, “Well, it wasn’t because I thought I could make a difference, that was what I was called to do.” So for me, trying to work on behalf of, in my religious language, trying to work on behalf of the world you think God intends is what I was called to do. So it’s really nice if you can see progress because that keeps us going. Everybody wants to think they’re doing something worthwhile, but these are huge issues and there is urgency but they also can take a huge amount of time and so continuing that urgency that any more Page 9 �time of discrimination of victims is way too many-that was Dr. King’s point in The Grand Urgency of Now but one also has to realize that sometimes things change slowly. DG: Are there any works or any writing that you hold very highly and represent what you do very well? DVD: Oh boy, yeah but the titles always leave my head. For me, the liberation theologies are really important, the early African-American liberation theologies, the central-American ones, Gustavo Gutierrez, his writings. Women, minority women, This Bridge Called My Back I recall, that was in the early 80s was a really powerful book for me. Walking on Thorns by Ellen Busack was in the middle of the anti-apartheid movement. Further back, Paul Tillick’s Love, Power and Justice was really, really key for me. A number of more recent writings by gay and lesbian people, a number of them now that they’re particularly important. As I said, probably the first book that really began to shift perspective for me was, as I referenced before, Howard Thurman’s Jesus and The Disinherited and there’s a very early writing by Olive Schriener who was a white south-African woman, late 1800s early 1900s who did some writing on women and women at labor on African farms. They’re out of print now, but just amazing things, not as much by what they said, though that’s some of it, but also by who said it out of what era and so forth. Desmond Tutu’s book about hope, really another good one. I try to do a lot of reading in those areas and things that go together in relations between titles and authors, but yeah, there’s a lot of really powerful stuff out there. DW: Thank you. We have talked a lot about the progress that has been made both by you personally, by your church, by the community. Are there any areas that you feel are still lacking in progress or that the least progress has been made in terms of just fighting social injustice? DVD: Well, I think in schools. It’s an entrenched, devaluing of urban school and urban children and I just think that is an area, I think urban children are highly discriminated against. You don’t have to say that it’s intentional or that people are consciously against, but I think if you look at lack of support for, lack of valuation of urban school districts including Grand Rapids, that’s an area that you just can’t deny. Urban kids are devalued. That’s all one needs to know when you’re dealing with discrimination, that a certain group of folks is devalued. And so, that’s cause enough to try to deal with that devaluation, since there’s discrimination, prejudice there that is the root of that. So that’s an area that certainly needs to be. An area that’s beginning to get a little progress, but a huge amount more needs to be made in terms of understanding and non-discrimination is transgender people. There is a much, much larger transgender or what the dominant culture would call gender variant community out there than most folks, especially most straight folks, would understand. They’re in a particularly difficult place because they’re lumped by the dominant culture with gay and lesbian and bisexual folks, but that’s a very different reality. LGB folks aren’t transgender, don’t want to be identified as transgender, transgender folks have a whole different set of things so I think sophistication in that regard, both in understanding and non-discrimination for transgender folks really needs to be, more progress needs to be made. It’s just beginning to happen. DW: I guess to, how do you feel that society will in time, or do you feel that society in time will stop devaluing some of these groups of people? Page 10 �DVD: Well, in relation to LGBT folks, that’s moving very fast; that genie is out of the bottle. So, you see, one has to be careful historically, you see that cultures do go backwards sometimes and the backlash, you see how strong it is with groups like the American Family Association that focus on the family and so forth and even some well-moneyed people in West Michigan giving up a lot of money to those groups that want to turn the clock back on gay rights so you have to be careful and keep working and not assume that this is just going to go forward. But, that as I say, is not going back in the closet, so I think you can see how fast that is moving, surveys in relation to the people who are favor of legal marriage for LGBT people, those have moved up very fast. You see the places and states where that has happened. I think that your generation and people younger than you, so college kids, traditional aged college kids and younger are much, much more open to various people of color, culture, various cultural expressions, so I think that if we can keep the older generations from effecting them too much, and help both the older generation and that generation to see how this is perpetuated in systems that they need to combat, then we’ll continue to make progress on a racial justice scale as well. DW: Kind of the track a little bit, but have you seen the campaign video by Governor Rick Perry of Texas? DVD: I haven’t. DW: Basically, he has this, “Strong” is the title of the video I believe. It’s an advertisement where he goes off against the gay community, and it’s had a huge negative backlash for him personally, but what is your response when someone with political power like that, he’s running for President next year, what’s your response when there is still that sort of ignorance within society, at that kind of level? DVD: Well, it’s scary for one. It makes me angry for another. It’s used for political gain, it may well be his beliefs but it was clear when Bush won his second term that the issues that were put on the ballot had to do in many states, especially the states that were very important in his winning, were ones that dealt with homosexuality especially because they were trying to get out that right wing vote, and it worked. If you look at Ohio, Michigan I believe it was that year, but certainly it was Ohio and some of those key states, so it’s a political strategy as well. He probably believes that, but they’ve seen that they can get mileage out of it. It worries me about what do they perceive that they’re buying into or rather pulling out of the electorate and you know, they’re playing into those prejudices, those fear tactics that the US that we once had, which is probably a fantasy for most people, will come again if we just keep these bad people outside. It worries me on several levels that there are enough people to buy into it along with some other sort of ideological issues that can get somebody, hopefully not that extreme but still same kinds of people who would vote for him would vote for a person who is a little bit less extreme and have that power in the nation. I think you see that in the Michigan legislature. I think it is certainly not at all friendly to LGBT issues, so I find it scary. I would like to find it laughable but I think one needs to take it more seriously than that, but I hope it really does backfire on him. DW: It’s got several hundred thousand dislikes on YouTube now, I believe, compared to just hundreds of likes. DVD: Yeah, but who is sitting there who never gets on their computer who is going to vote for somebody who represents those kinds of views. But that just means that the people who aren’t, the Page 11 �people who think that that is just nonsense need to stand up, you can’t assume that others think that’s nonsense; you got to say that too. DW: Gotcha. That’s really all I’ve got. (To Dan) Is there anything else you’ve got? DG: Yeah, I think we’ve gone over pretty much everything? DW: Okay. (To Doug) Is there anything else personally you’d like to add for the project? DVD: Umm, no. I guess not. It’s been interesting to think of the sort of parallel tracks but not much intersection of the anti-discrimination issues in terms of civil rights for people of color and LGBT rights. I’ve been involved with both of those and people who know I’m involved with both of those, especially even in the black community, are supportive of me in that regard, but it would be, hopefully as we move along there will be less separateness to those two struggles than there is now, so that’s happening but the racial justice struggle really needs to continue, it can’t be overshadowed by anything else. It needs to continue with strong support and advocacy all the way through. It can’t be overshadowed but other ones need to be on parallel tracks so hopefully they will see themselves in concert with each other as well. DW: Gotcha. DVD: All right. DW: Thank you very much. DVD: Yeah, you’re very welcome. DW, DG: We really appreciate it. DVD: It was nice to meet you both. END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/12ec7e39525f1491b4913ec11a005e7a.mp3 54534662bdc4d92bc6821d60ca1717c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Van_Doren_Doug Title A name given to the resource Doug van Doren audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doren, Doug van Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Shae Gotshall, Daniel Wolff, Derek Description An account of the resource Doug van Doren is a pastor of Plymouth United Church of Christ and he is involved with the community in a number of areas. In this interview he describes experiences of discretionary practices and prejudice toward people of color in the West Michigan area. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6fae1e2c06a3e43e12526ebad874b016.pdf 31fb909e16d9b31f48c40c90b84f1dd3 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Raymond McVeigh Interviewers: Saidah Miller and Lauren Biggs Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/29/2011 Runtime: 01:25:28 Biography and Description Raymond McVeigh discusses his involvement with the Pro-Life movement as a Catholic. Transcript Saidah: Ok. So could you give us some basic information about yourself? You name? Your place of birth? RJ: Uh…My name is RJ McVey. Raymond. Everybody calls me RJ. I’m…born near Detroit, Michigan. I’m nineteen years old. Saidah: Alright RJ: I’m from Lansing. Where I was raised. Saidah: Ok. Are you apart of any specific religion? RJ: I’m Catholic. Saidah: Ok. And are you currently employed? What profession are you interested in? RJ: Um…Well… I worked part time with Grand Valley tutoring center. But I’m studying premedicine. Hope to be a medical doctor someday. Saidah: Awesome. Are you apart of any political party? RJ: Not officially. Saidah: Alright. And so you are involved in the Pro-Life movement. What exactly is Pro-Life? RJ: Um… the Pro-Life position would be that human life is intrinsically valuable at all stages of development. Um… that we seek to defend life from conception to natural death. Page 1 �Saidah: Ok , and did you grow up in a Pro-Life household? RJ: Not… I grew up in a Christian household. It wasn’t even really predominantly a Catholic household really. My mother was Methodist and my father was raised Catholic. But it never got spoken of in my household really. I’ve really initiated it within my own family. Now I definitely say we’re, my parents and my brother who still lives at home, I would say they’re definitely a Pro-Life household. Bu it never really was an issue that was discussed growing up. Saidah: Ok. So, what got you involved in the Pro-Life movement? RJ: It really was a combination of a few things that all happened simultaneously. I would probably say it was my senior year of high school. Um… I went to a private Catholic high school and we took, I signed up for the honors Philosophy class for my last year of Theology because we were required to take 4 years of Theology. And so, um, the Philosophy class really was an awesome experience, it was like a small class of just some of the more academically advanced students, (Clears throat), who, it was optional, whether to take the honors Philosophy, which was a year long course or take regular Philosophy which was only a semester long and so it was only people there who wanted to be there and I had an awesome teacher and it really turned into an apologetics type course a lot. Um…And just kinda like logical arguments for why we believe the things that we believe. And that really kinda sparked my interest in just the Philosophy aspect in general and being able to defend my beliefs. Cause you know I had always been Catholic, but really learning how to, why we believe what we believe and how to defend things and during that whole process I really started to realize that Pro-Life issue, there is a few Pro-Life issues. I’m assuming that we are talking specifically about the issue of abortion. Is that, the issue with abortion is that I think that the it’s the most easily, to me it’s the most obvious position that is being an injustice in our society right now and that is the most easily defended, logically, of why we should not be able to take the life of unborn human beings. And so seeing that it could be so... effectively defended, the pro-life opinion on abortion, and that there is such injustice being done by that, really that injustice got me emotionally involved in wanting to act out, to become active in that stance. And then the other thing that happened was about the time I started dating my now fiance, who was the founder of her pro-life group at another university and was president there and really involved and so spending more time around her and at the same time realizing, ya know, really kinda starting to have it sink in what an injustice was being done by this. Those two things really combined into making me really want to devote lots of my time and energy towards this. Saidah: Ok. So your girlfriend, excuse me, fiance, is a definite person who makes you stand strong in your pro-life belief? RJ: Mmmmhmm. Yeah. Page 2 �Saidah: Ok. So, do you have any pro-life heros locally? RJ: Um... Yes. I’d say that I’m the president of Grand Valley’s students for life group but really there is a, a circle of people in our group who are all extremely active and awesome at what they do. And um, they’re all really kind of, they keep me going and I hope that I keep them going and they’re pushed to remain active in this. Ya know my fiance is probably one of my prolife heros, there is a lot of things she does, a lot of types of discrimination that she faces for holding the positions that she, ya know, for being active the way that she is. And being so... I don’t know what the word is... I guess charismatic would kinda be the word I’m looking for, and the way that she is so active and courageous in that, there’s a lot of things she does that I don’t think I’d be able to do and that’s an inspiration to me. Saidah: Ok. Do you have any national pro-life heros? RJ: Yes, um, I’ve actually had the privilege to get to know one of them personally recently. I was **six-upped** into a fellowship for students for life of America, which is the national organization. And they, as a part of that fellowship, is they set you up with like a mentor, of a national pro-life leader of your choosing. And so I’d mentioned earlier that I’m really interested, my thing I feel most passionately about is the apologetics of everything, and so I’d requested a pro-life national apologist who’s name is Scott Klusendorf as my mentor and I get, uh, through the organization they asked him if he’d be interested and he said he was, and so I’ve had the privilege of getting to spend time talking to him. Couple hours every couple weeks and so gotten to know him pretty well. He’s one of my national heros. Along with the people who help run students for life of America ‘cause I really think the students, there’s lots of national pro-life groups but I really think that the students for life group is one of the most important because our age group are the ones that have to face this type of decision the most. Both men and women I think. Saidah: Ok, could you explain a little bit more about the apologetics? I’m not really familiar with that. RJ: Like what? What the apologetic argument would be? Saidah: Yes. RJ: Ok, so you could have me talk for more that two hours on this. Saidah: Take your time! RJ: Ok, so the question that it begins with is you have to realize that the question of abortion is whether or not we can kill the unborn. Alright, but before we can ever hope to answer the question, you know, is is morally ok to kill the unborn, we have to address the question, what is the unborn. Alright, just like if you had a five year old boy walk up to you and ask can I kill this, Page 3 �you would ask ok, well what is it? If he’s got a spider then sure. If it’s his brother by the throat, that’s a problem, the answer I hope would be no. So once we realize that we have to identify what is the unborn. We can look to science to answer what it is. Alright, science doesn’t how we can, how we should treat it, ya know, we’re just looking to science to identify what the unborn are. And so I could go, I could pull out of my bag a bunch of sources for this right now but, I mean, indisputably, scientifically from the moment of conception a new human organism um, is created. It’s a, I forget the technical term right now but it’s something along the lines of reproductive genesis, that species only reproduce other species of their same species. Ya know, humans reproduce humans, chimpanzees reproduce chimpanzees, and so it’s really kinda basic biology that two gametes, two haploid cells from a women and a man come together and that forms what, the first cells, called a zygote and that is a new organism. And what species is it? It is a human species. It is a unique human organism. Alright but that doesn’t tell us how we should treat it, that just tells us what it is. And so, now that we know that it is a human organism we, I’ll assume that most people I talk to will agree, that born humans are intrinsically valuable. Ya know, that we shouldn’t kill toddlers, that it’s wrong to kill people. Alright, people generally agree with that when we’re talking about people like you or me. And so the way we address this is ok, well what’s the difference between that first unborn, ya know that first cell that is a human being, what’s the difference between that unborn human being and a born human being that would make it ok to kill the unborn human being but not ok to kill the born human being. And so if you can find one of, a difference between the two that we agree does change their intrinsic value, well then you could conclude that abortion would be ok. But so, I can identify four differences that I think sum up all the differences between an unborn human being and a born human being. And those are size, their level of development, their environment, and their degree of dependancy. Alright. And I could go through each, all four of those in depth to try to explain why those don’t change a human being’s intrinsic value. I think size and environment are the most obvious. Alright. Bigger human beings aren’t more valuable than smaller human beings. I’ve never met a person who would disagree with that. So that’s the size one. Environment, I think is also pretty easy. Ya know, if I’m standing here I’m the same worth as if I were standing over there. Ya know, we don’t generally believe that your location changes how much you’re worth. And the other two differences are the level of development and their degree of dependency. Now these two you’ll sometimes ya know, have some people dispute these. I think the level of development is... pretty, you can get people to understand that that does not change your value when you, because where, we change in our level of development our entire lives. Ya know, five year old girls are much less developed than eighteen year old women. Eighteen year old women have a fully developed reproductive system, they have a more developed brain, they’ve developed life experiences, where as the five year old girls doesn’t have any of these things. Yet we all agree that the five year old is of the same intrinsic value of the eighteen year old. It’s just as bad killing the five year old as it Page 4 �would be killing the eighteen year old. So I, using examples like that I think that we can conclude that the level of development doesn’t change the value of a human being. And then the last difference is the degree of dependency. Now this one you probably will spend the most time discussing with people if you’re talking about the apologetics. People will, most pro-choice people will cling onto this and say the, how much a human being is dependent on other human beings does change their value. I would disagree and I think I can provide examples why. Because, you could use an example of like an infant. An infant is dependent on their parents for just about, as much as an unborn human being. An unborn human being fetus, if you removed all of it’s dependency on it’s parents, it would die. If you removed an infant from all their dependency on their parents, it would die. If parents neglect to feed their infant child, they’ll get convicted of murder or the equivalent thereof. And so if we believe that’s wrong to kill an infant, well then, and it’s wrong to kill a ten year old and the difference between those two are the dependency on their parents, well then I think we can conclude that the dependency doesn’t change how much they’re worth. And also, since this dependency one is usually harder for a lot of people to agree on, I also like to use the example of we’re all dependent on each other on some level. Maybe it’s not the same exact amount, but none of us are perfectly independent. Ya know, just by the nature of the types of beings that we are, we’re social creatures, we’re dependent on each other. And we’re all dependent on each other in different amounts. And so if we were to dictate that our dependency on each other changes our value none of us would be equal because of that fact that we all depend on each other in different amounts and so then we can conclude that you can’t consistently hold a view of human equality if our dependency on each other changes how much we’re worth. And so since most people at least in our country agree that people are equal, I think you can point out that you can’t consistently hold that view if you’re going to say depending on other human beings changes how much you’re worth. And so with those four differences pretty much every objection that people bring up about the differences between an embryo, or a fetus, and a toddler fall into one of those four categories and I think you can show that none of those things change how much a human being is worth. So that’s a kind of quick version for me anyways. Saidah: So how has being pro-life shaped or changed your life? RJ: Um.... a lot of the relationships I have, a lot of the friends that I have, through the pro-life activism that I’ve done, like Lauren here, it’s really gotten, it’s helped me become even firmer in some of my beliefs outside the pro-life issue too, just because you know, I’ve been in debates and things, on abortion and so um, I mean anybody who knows me really well knows that I don’t like to do things unless I know I can succeed at the them , it’s almost a problem that I have, that I don’t like taking risks, so in order to go into a debate, you know when you go into a debate you’re risking a lot, you can be embarrassed, people laugh at you, um, you could fumble over your words, you might just kinda forget what you wanted to say, it’s like I know I had a Page 5 �rebuttal to this, I just can’t think of how to put it together right now! You’re risking a lot, so when I’m like preparing to go into a debate or something, I was in a debate a couple weeks ago and I spent like weeks and hours a day ahead of time going over my stuff, making sure I have all my facts straight, especially when you’re going into a debate arguing the side that is politically incorrect. ‘Cause if you’re going to argue something that’s politically incorrect in front of, ya know, over a hundred people, you better have your stuff together otherwise you’re in trouble. Um, and so just having that almost tediousness of wanting to make sure I have my, that my logic is founded well and that I know how to respond to objections to things, um, having that type of focus on one issue really kinda broadens into my other issues too, like my belief in God, would be an example of one of the biggest ones obviously. Um, and I want to make sure that I understand, ya know, why I believe this and to be able to conclude that it’s not crazy for me to hold this belief, that I have reasons why and that it makes, that it’s better reasons than the counter argument. And so it’s really helped me with that and being founded in all of my beliefs. Saidah: All right, and I know we kinda talked about a little bit about abortion. So, could you give us like just a general overview of what you know about abortion. RJ: Well there is medically two types of abortions, a spontaneous abortion and a induced abortion. Spontaneous abortions obviously you can’t really do much about, they’re spontaneous, nature does ‘em. Ya know, that’s nature doing it. Saidah: Is that also called a miscarriage? RJ: Yes. There’s been some, uh, dispute recently amongst the medical community, some people really want it to, officially change the term from spontaneous abortion to miscarriage because of the bad connotation that comes along with the word abortion now. With, so miscarriage versus abortion, sort of the same thing. One happens spontaneously uh the other one is you’re doing it on purpose. Um, it removes an unborn human being from it’s mother’s womb, except most of the time it really does more that just remove it. People often times like to think, ya know, it’s just like removing life support, but most abortions are done through suction, which tears apart the unborn human being. Or chemicals which burn it, basically dissolve it, and so I mean there are some cases where it is kinda more like simply removing, but the majority are done where it’s more really actively killing and um, so I mean like, the analogy that I have that I think makes a lot of sense, it’s a little bit gruesome but people like to think that it’s like removing life support but its more like removing life support by first shooting the person in the head. Um, really. If you’re going back to this, that argument that human beings are the same, it’s not merely removing life support. It’s actually killing them and then removing them. Which I think is a significant difference. But so, uh, does that answer the question? Saidah: Yeah, definitely. Could you kinda talk about how abortion affects women from what you read and learned in your life? Page 6 �RJ: M hmmm. I know that um having an abortion, this has kinda become a controversial statement, that having an abortion increases your risk of breast cancer. Which to the best of my knowledge, best of my medical knowledge, is true. I’ve tried to become educated on both sides, some scientists and people say that there really isn’t any connection btw the two where as scientists on the pro life side have tried to explain that having an abortion does increase your risk of breast cancer. To the best of my knowledge that’s true. Other side effects is that it increases your risk of having spontaneous abortions in the future, which I think makes a lot of sense. Post abortive stress syndrome is another one that, it’s another thing that’s disputed. It’s not recognized by some organizations. It is recognized by some other organizations. I mean, I know personally I’ve meet women that have had abortions and suffer from the guilt of what they’ve done and that never really seems to go away. Ya know, I’m not going to say that’s going to happen to everybody who has an abortion, I’m sure there are people that have abortions who don’t feel that way afterwards, whether or not you feel that way, I don’t think changes what an abortion is and what it does. So when I’m discussing with people why I believe in that abortion is wrong, that’s not necessarily something that I would bring up because,ya know, I think as a **(inaudible)** it’d be a reason not to, but it doesn’t really come into play when you’re talking about why abortion is wrong. But, I mean, these are a few of the negative side effects, I’m sure there are some women who have abortions, don’t have any side effects but I know there are women who have abortions that do suffer from a lot of side effects. So. Saidah: Ok. Do you see an end to legal abortion? RJ: Like do I perceive one in the future? Saidah: Mmmhmm. RJ: Yes. I believe it’s possible. I wouldn’t be doing this if I didn’t think it were possible. It’s become very close, and ya know, we’ve come very close to it in the past. I mean the real reason of why I don’t think abortion is illegal already is because of the fractions within the pro life movement. If all the organizations that are pro life would all come to agreement and stop vying for kinda like popularity or ownership of the issue and just be able to submit it, ya know like this isn’t about me personally getting acknowledged for anything, I just want to help end this. I mean abortion would have been outlawed like in the eighties, there had been pro life majorities in congress enough for an amendment because at this point that’s basically what it would take. It would take either a judicial review of Roe V. Wade or it would take a constitutional amendment in order to outlaw abortion. If we went the judicial route, or were able to get the judicial route and throw out Roe V. Wade then they would go back to, then it would be a state’s issue on whether or not abortion would be legal. Where as if you went the amendment route, then it would be nationally outlawed. But yes, I think it’s possible. Lauren: Do you see it in your lifetime? Page 7 �RJ: Uh, Yes. I believe it’s possible. But uh, if someone came here in a time machine and told me it’s not going to be in my lifetime I would be any less active. I had some people give the analogy of the abolitionist movement. That push to outlaw slavery. In that it’s kinda like passing on a candle from generation to generation. If any generation down the line drops the ball, and doesn’t pass it on to the next generation, then we’d still have slavery. So I mean whether or not abortion is outlawed in my lifetime, does not change my motive to be pro life and to be actively pro life but obviously that’s the goal. Saidah: Alright. So what do you think women can learn from the pro life struggle? RJ: Um...There...I mean as a man, there’s, I’ve, I can’t help but notice that there’s this... I guess you’d call it a stereotype from the pro choice side, that tries to paint all pro life men as trying to control women. I never quite understood that because I’m not sure what I would gain from it. I mean, I’ve honestly sat down and tried to think, ok what would personally be in this for me by changing this. The only thing I can honestly think of would be that someday down the road when i’m working, not in school any more and my supervisor of boss was a women who becomes pregnant and would otherwise have had an abortion but if abortion were illegal could not and then had to go on maternity leave and then I would maybe have a chance to take their supervisor job or something like that. I mean, other than that I honestly can’t think of anything that I would personally gain from outlawing abortion and frankly I think that’s kinda far fetched and maybe this is me being prideful but IF I wanted to control women i’m pretty sure that I could do something that would be better at controlling women than that, (Chuckling from interviewers) than you know, putting in hours, ya know, into this every week during my college education. I just don’t, that’s the one thing I guess if I could, like send a message for women to learn I guess, it’s just that pro life men aren’t trying to control you. It’s really just because I believe all human life is valuable. But other than that just that, um, what women can learn from the pro life struggle...it’d just be that, I mean one of the most common reasons women cite for having an abortion is that they feel like they have no other choice. Which I think is kinda ironic. And I can see that, ya know, that women are pressured by their boyfriends, by their husbands, by their families, especially young women, teenagers pressured by their families. And I think that something that I’d like them to learn from the pro life struggle is that, ya know, we’re here because we want to support you. We want to support your family. Ya know, when pro life people are, ya know, protests are outside abortion clinics, it’s not to condemn you it’s to show you that, ya know, we support your other option, as to have your child, we want to support you in that way. Saidah: Ok, so if you or a friend was faced with a crisis pregnancy what would your advice be? RJ: Luckily I’ve really only been faced with this situation once and my friend chose to have her child. And I’ll be the first to admit that this probably isn’t my forte, this isn’t what I feel that I’m Page 8 �great at, just kinda general of giving advice, I don’t think I’m the greatest at giving advice. And because it’s much different there because ya know I’ve pointed out I’m really into the apologetics thing, ya know where as when somebody’s actually faced with the situation that’s usually not what you want to do. (chuckles) Is,ya know, provide out logical arguments and things like that because that’s not what it is about anymore, it’s an emotional issue at that point. I think the apologetics stuff I much more suited for an academic level, like debate, conversing amongst people who don’t really have any personal stake in the issue at that point when they’re discussing it, where as when there’s somebody actually facing the crisis of pregnancy, it becomes much more personal and much more emotional and that’s really when, just kinda like emotional issues in general, it’s more important just to be there for that person and support them. So I guess if I had a friend who was faced with that situation I would tell them that I care about them no matter what they do, that their decision doesn’t change their worth, that they’re still a valuable person regardless of what they do but that I do believe that abortion is wrong and that if you’re willing to listen to why, I would be happy to explain to them why I believe it’s wrong. I’d be sure from a medical perspective to point out that, just how, it’s really, like I said, it’s basic biology but people just kinda seem to, it’s almost like a willful negligence or willful ignorance of the facts. Just explain like, ok, scientifically this is a human being who by definition is your, I mean you can use the word offspring, it’s your child, just scientifically say like I know that you believe in that people are valuable , I believe people are valuable and I believe that your unborn child is a person and that I would encourage you to give your child life and i’d love to be willing to support you in making that decision and maybe and find other people who have the means to support them in a more concrete way, ya know, financially or something like that. Lauren: Pro life groups and I know students for life of Grand Valley has been quoted saying “Eliminate the crisis, not the pregnancy.” Could you give some examples of places in western Michigan that you’re aware of that can help women in a crisis pregnancy? Saidah: I mean, the first one that I know of, because we work closely with them is Lakeshore Pregnancy center. Which is right outside, right off Grand Valley campus. Speaking as a catholic, I know that most catholic churches, if somebody went to them and said hey I’m facing this tough situation that they’d have people who’d be more that wiling to help and show support. I mean, outside that just basically any pro life group. In the pro life movement there’s kinda two sects. This isn’t the division that I was talking about before, there’s just kinda two groups that focus on two different aspects. There’s the crisis pregnancy centers which focus on that more personal, emotional aspect I was talking about and those are the groups that I would refer to a friend who was in this situation. And so the local one is the Lakeshore pregnancy center. And then the other group within the pro life movement is the more right to life groups. Which are more about the activism, to people who aren’t necessarily facing this right now but just Page 9 �showing them what abortion is and why we should be against it. That’s more about, along the APOLOGETICS type line, the more, like the legal aspect and things like that, where as the crisis pregnancy centers are the ones who personally work with women who are, and families really, who are faced with this situation. And so those are the types of groups that I would refer people to. Does that answer the question? Saidah: Yes. Yes it does. So we know your involved with students for life, how long have you worked with this organization? RJ: Students for life of Grand Valley, two years, a year and a half now. Well I guess sort of, if we’re talking about students for life in general, I started in high school. ‘Cause I went to a catholic high school and we had group of students who were pro life. We didn’t officially have a group then, I think at my high school they’ve now started an official group but I mean students for life of America, the national organization, a year and a half. Saidah: Alright. So could you give us some of the goals and purposes of this group? RJ: Well, I mean the technical goal, as stated in our constitution is to provide an outlet for students to express the belief that abortion is morally, ethical and socially wrong. To promote values of life that value human life from conception to natural death. So those are kinda like a big picture goals. Some of the more smaller, concrete goals would be, like what we do is we every year have an event to for, like a fundraiser for the local crisis pregnancy center that I was talking about a second ago. We go to the national march for life every January on the anniversary of Roe V. Wade to be active in demonstrating ya know that’s more along the legal lines of protesting, saying that we as a, we as individuals of this country don’t believe that we should be allowing this to happen. We also do things like participate in 40 days for life. Which is a nationally organized event but the way we get involved is through locally, spending time and prayer outside of the local abortion clinic. We try to initiate dialogues between students on this issue, we try to initiate dialogue between our group and the pro choice group on campus, not always successful, but we always try to initiate those conversations. Saidah: Is students for life a religious group? RJ: Students for life is NOT a religious group. While most people in are group are, you could say religious, I don’t really like the word religion in general kind of. I don’t believe in a religion, I believe in the truth. But um, (chuckles) but no, we are not a religious group. We can fully and completely make our case without any sort of religion at all. I think that might be seen in the apologetic argument I put forward earlier, in that faith, religion wasn’t brought into that at all. We simply start with the assumption that we all agree that we shouldn’t kill people, that we shouldn’t kill born human beings so that’s not necessarily a religious claim, that’s kinda just a Page 10 �common agreement amongst people, and then we build our argument from there using science and philosophy. And logic. Saidah: Ok, so what as a student for life organization done in the community to help spread the pro life message? RJ: We regularly bring in speakers, hold events on campus. Typically every year we have at least one cemetery of innocence, which it’s what we call our demonstration where we will set up a certain number, like kinda reserve a space of grass outdoors and we’ll set up a certain number of crosses usually, and then have signs that say ya know, each cross represents blank amount of human beings aborted every day or every year, type thing. To kinda demonstrate the number of abortions that take place and how many human lives are being taken. So that’s one of the things we do to try to publicly get the pro life message out. In addition to the speakers, we do tabling. And a lot of those events are part of what we call fire and ice week. Just kinda like a co-hosted event with our pro life group and the pro choice group on campus. Originally the idea was that both groups would cosponsor each others events to like, student government, to maybe get like more funding for each group’s individual events. And then it kinda becomes like an abortion awareness week where both groups everyday of the week hold extra, like an event every day to advocate their cause. When this first was initiated here on Grand Valley’s campus, it ended with a debate at the end of the week between the two groups. That was the original idea it’s kind of changed since then, so that’s when we do things like the cemetery of innocence, we bring in lots of speakers and a couple other things like we’ll bring in a speaker who has a personal testimony on abortion maybe that they received or that they had type thing. We’ll bring like a pro-life obstetrician slash gynecologist who will speak on medical aspects. So we do a lot of those events during what we call the fire and ice week. But we periodically have these type of events all year round. Saidah: Could you describe an experience that caused you to be pro-life? RJ: You know really, I haven’t had, I have been blessed to not have been personally connected to that many people facing that type of situation to my knowledge anyways. Really, the most personal experience would be the two things I said in the beginnings. One, my philosophy class my senior year of high school. And in particular the personal relationship I had with the teacher, and then my relationship with my fiancee. Saidah: Could you, you had mentioned previously that you had done some type of prayer at an abortion clinic. Were there any experiences within those sessions that you came face to face with talking to a woman facing an abortion and if so how did that affect you? RJ: Yeah, when I’ve spent time praying slashing protesting I guess you could call it at the clinics I personally haven’t really spoken to any of the women going in or coming out. And a big part of Page 11 �the that is just tactically being with other people who are there for the same reason and women who are faced with the situation probably don’t want to be speaking to some stranger college guy. You know, if I was faced with the situation where a woman was going to get an abortion and I was the only one there, like it was a friend of mine, yes I would initiate talk to them about this, try to be compassionate. But you know when I’m there with a group of people, like I’ve done this with my fiancee before. She will try to initiate conversation with the couples, with the women going in and out. She has started communication with people like this. So personally I have not. I’ve seen it happen, i’ve seen couples come out of the clinic because you know sometimes it’s just because me and the group of people were there, just because we were there that we were showing support basically, they changed their minds, they didn’t get an abortion just because they saw people there. And then other times I’ve seen it happen because people have gone to them and talked to them and ya know, kinda been there for them. I think it means a lot to people when they realize that people, when the pro life people are outside the clinic because they care, I think when they realize that, they maybe even if they think we’re wrong in what we believe, just when they realize that we’re there because we care, I think that means a lot regardless of whether or not you think it’s a human being that’s being killed or not. Just to see that somebody feels so strongly about that that they want to be there to show compassion for you. I think that means a lot to people. Saidah: Ok so are there any particular experiences that you’ve had with the pro life movement that have been monuments to you or that has really shaped and defined your belief? Lauren: That’s a good question. RJ: Yeah. The most powerful experience I think I’ve had was the time, the first time I was at the clinic. The one I’ve been at the most is near Flint, Michigan which is where my fiance’s from. And I was with there with her and her student’s for life group and some people from the local right to life group and that clinic, the time that they do abortions are early Saturday morning. And the reason they do this is to discourage people from coming out and being there. And so when I’ve gone with them before it’s kinda gruesome because you literally got to get up at like six o’clock in the morning on Saturday to go out there because they do their abortions between seven a.m. and ten a.m. on Saturday morning. And so sometimes it’s a little gruesome, you usually don’t want, not gruesome but grueling is the word I’m looking for. Ya know, you don’t want to, you want to sleep in. But I’ve dragged myself out there with them a couple times and the first time that we had a couple come out of the clinic and, we hadn’t talked to them beforehand, we had had the people try to talk to them beforehand but they had ignored us and just gone to the clinic and twenty minutes later came out and we didn’t know what was going on, they just went to their car but then they pulled around by us and asked, hey do you have any information, we usually have flyers with information about pregnancy support group flyer type things, came around and asked do you have any information that we could take, and we Page 12 �were like Yeah! Sure! We were excited because we don’t always get people come up and be willing to talk to us. And we asked do you know anybody who’s faced with an abortion and the women was like yeah, I was supposed to have one today. And they said, we’re not having one anymore, and they both just looked so happy and it was the day before mother’s day which was really cool. Saidah: Oh wow. RJ: And honestly they looked, and this isn’t me just being biased, they looked happy. They were both smiling. That was probably the coolest...and everybody, our group was there, there was probably like six to eight of us that were there, we were all so excited. And then my fiance Brianna started crying because she cries whenever she’s happy, that was pretty, that was a powerful, emotional experience that kinda keeps me going sometimes when I don’t, when I’d rather put more effort into something for myself. That keeps me going with giving up that extra time and effort for those couples that are faced with those decisions and those lives that are in the balance. Saidah: Have you had any personal experience like those on campus when you’re having any type of events? RJ: Not from people who were facing this decision or had faced this decision but I have had people come up to me who are just really encouraged to see such support on our campus for the pro life movement. None of them were like, really impacting, they were always encouraging and really appreciated but not like that other experience I was talking about. Those are kinda, ya know, because they mean so much to you they are rare. They wouldn’t mean as much to you if they were common I don’t think. Saidah: That’s true. So have you ever had any type of repeat type experiences like that? Have you ever had any really bad experiences with the abortion clinics? RJ: Uh, yes. (All laugh) I kinda like the bad experiences stuff sometimes. Because I, one of the experiences, it was just like a month or two ago when we were doing 40 days for life we had a few people from our group go, and there’s this guy who was walking towards us to go past us on the sidewalk and he looked like a college aged guy, and so there were probably three or four of us kinda lined up, side to side, in front of the building. And he walked by and as he passed each of us, he turned, about this far from our heads and, what did he say?... He said something pretty vulgar. He had the F word in there and he said like, you’re a f’ing idiot or something like that to each of us as he walked by and just kept walking. Oh and then when he got to me he changed it up a little bit, he said that to like the other three people and then he got to me and he changed it up and threw the f word in there twice or something. To me it’s just so Page 13 �outrageous, I don’t even get angry, I just kinda laugh and, I mean, to be honest, I think i’d rather have everybody respond that way then to have everybody just walk by. Saidah: Mmmhmm. It lets you know that they’re paying attention. RJ: Right. To know that people notice. I don’t know, it doesn’t bother ME if people say that. Doesn’t change the facts, doesn’t change what I think is true. You know, I’m not doing this because I think it’s going to make me popular. So that’s definitely not a factor, when people say negative things toward me. I’m just doing this because I’m following what I honestly believe is true, ya know. I mean, I’m open to anybody showing me reasons and evidence for why what I believe is true isn’t true but until that happens i’m going to follow it. And so when I have those negative experiences it doesn’t really discourage me at all, it kinda Encourages me, to notice that people are noticing and that we’re getting to the people that disagree with us. So. (chuckles) Saidah: So was there, besides that one, any other moments that you had in your life that you remember being treated differently for for your pro life stance? RJ: Oh yeah. I like it when we table. ‘Cause I think one of the things that, when we table, obviously like I said earlier we’re a politically incorrect group basically. Saidah: Could you describe real quick what tabling is? RJ: Ok. Tabling is an event, or is an activity that all student organizations on our campus and on most campuses can do. And they just reserve a time in a big, social building, for us it’s Kirkoff, where you just kinda get a table off to the side of the hallway and you can set up posters and everything for your cause and it’s and opportunity for anybody who sees your group, says hey I might be interested in getting involved with that group, to come over and talk to a couple of people from the group about what they do, what that person would do to get involved, that type of thing. That’s something that we do periodically. Usually once every couple weeks, just for a few hours. Usually it’d be like in the University student union building type thing. Kirkoff is basically Grand Valley’s equivalent. As to being treated differently, when we table we have this box of fetal development models, of lifelike, to scale kinda rubbery models of the development of a fetus every few weeks. And so part of our posters and stuff we put on our table when we table, we have these out there, sitting out and we get so many weird looks. (laughs) Because they basically look like little naked babies. Especially when we’ll just schedule people to table from our group, take like one hour shifts type of thing, and every now and again it’ll end up with just, we usually try to have two people at a table at a time, every now and again we’ll end up having two guys at the table and whenever we have to guys at the table is the best. (chuckles) ‘Cause so many people give us weird looks and i’ve heard people, i’ve seen like a couple girls walk by and one whispers to the other, it’s always a couple of guys. Sometimes it Page 14 �makes me feel a little, it doesn’t make me feel embarrassed or anything because it’s not like I think that people are going to judge me differently by, it’s only fear that it is going to, that people are going to take it as reinforcement of that stereotype that I was talking about earlier of men trying to control women. That’s really my only apprehension when that happens because I honestly, I can say personally that’s not true for me, I guess I can’t speak for the personal attentions of every pro life man out there but it’s not the reason that men are pro life. So, ya know, people see what they want to see though, if somebody’s already pro choice and they think, ya know, they’re telling themselves that and then they see two guys at the pro life table sometimes I worry that we’re just reinforcing that but that’s the time that I’m definitely treated differently. Saidah: Alright, are there any other experiences that stick out in your mind that you’ve had with the pro life movement? Were they good, bad, indifferent? RJ: I mean there’s a lot of frustrating examples. Because, I mean... Saidah: Tell us about ‘em! (chuckles) RJ: Alright, well this kinda goes along with how people tend, there’s another stereotype that all pro life people are just religious nuts. Ya know, that pro life people are pro life because their bible tells them to be, is a stereotype that is completely untrue. Crap, I kinda forget where I was going with this. (chuckles) For example we, I was in a debate a few weeks ago on another university’s campus, on my fiance’s campus and when they met with the pro choice group, it wasn’t purely a pro choice group, but it was like a secular students for free thought group who were going to be arguing the pro choice side.When they met to get together to just kinda discuss how they were going to set up the debate and everything, somewhere amongst the conversations, I wasn’t there, but I was told that somewhere amongst the conversation it got mentioned that we weren’t going to be talking about religion and the other group was shocked, like they couldn’t understand, like what? the pro choice group isn’t arguing about a religion? And they were like, no, we use science and philosophy and they were like, they couldn’t understand that. That’s a time when it’s a little bit frustrating but at the same time satisfying because you’re breaking stereotypes but, I remember where I was going with this originally though, is that there’s this idea amongst pro choice people that I’ve experienced, you know, I’m not going to claim to know what all pro choice people think but there definitely is this general consensus that being pro choice is kinda like the more enlightened, I guess you could say, this is really in the media, that being pro choice is the enlightened, tolerant individual who, and is kinda anti-religion, because there is this idea that being pro life IS religious, and so it’s kinda this idea that it’s the anti-religious, enlightened position that fights the power of the church or something. But the people who tell themselves that, that they’re somehow being kind of rebellious and strong by being pro choice is completely false. There’s nothing more anti- Page 15 �establishment then being pro life. I mean if you want to fight the establishment join the pro life cause. Ya know, especially in the universities and just in the government and the policies it’s all directed towards why abortion should be ok. If you want to have something to be antiestablishment it should be pro life. And so the most obvious example that I’ve had of this personally is right now I’m taking a human genetics course and there was a section basically on genetic and chromosomal abnormalities. And so examples of this would be like down syndrome. Down syndrome is caused by an individual having three copies of the chromosome 21. You’re only supposed to have two. And so during the section we were supposed to study the causes of down syndrome and a part of this was how to detect down syndrome and so it’s common practice for many doctors, for many women that are pregnant, is that they’ll test the fetus before it’s born to see if it has down syndrome. And so, I mean, that in and of itself, testing to see if your unborn child has down syndrome is’t necessarily bad. If you’re doing it with the intention of, ok, if it does I’m gunna kill it, that’s a problem. But there could be legitimate causes, you know, if anything, you just want to know, so that you can prepare so that when it’s time to give birth you’re not all of a sudden shocked to find out that your newborn child has down syndrome, that’s understandable, to be mentally prepared for that. But so a part of this in my genetics course was that we’d have like a sample question that says, ya know, it’s supposed to be like a clinically orientated question, where it’s like, ok, say you’re the doctor and a women comes to you and she’s two months pregnant and she has, say an uncle with down syndrome and she has a two year old son already who has down syndrome. And so what you’re supposed to answer is what should you do as the doctor about this. And so it was a multiple choice question and one of the possible choices for answering was order an immediate induced abortion. And that really upset me. There were a few questions like that on the worksheet that we had. Granted it wasn’t the right answer that you were supposed to get but it was still there. The right answer was to basically, to test to see if it has down syndrome and then that’s almost implying oftentimes that, ya know, well if it does we shouldn’t let it live. So I mean that’s just one of my personal examples of how being pro life is anti-establishment. Other frustrating circumstances... there’s a lot of circumstances like that one I said about the being protesting at the clinic. I mean, I’m usually surprised if we’re there and we don’t have at least one car drive by and honk at us, in a bad way.There’s good honks and there’s bad honks and you start to, after you do it a couple times you figure out the difference. Usually good honks are one or two quick ones, bad honks are “EEEEEEENNNNNHHHHHH” (makes obnoxious honking noise) as they drive by and sometimes they’ll like slow down to like ten miles per hour as they go by so that they can honk at you longer. It’s happened. (Interviewers chuckling) Other frustrating ones are, I’ve had frustrating circumstances when I’ve got on to this topic with like some of my roommates, some of my closer friends that I’ve gotten to know through college. It’s just frustrating because to me it seems so straightforward, but I know that’s because I’ve spent so much time going over why I believe this. And so to me it seems straightforward but, then Page 16 �when other people, like when I say two gametes form a zygote, that’s a new human being, to me that’s a scientific fact. When people are like, ya know, I don’t know if that’s true, I’m like ugh! When we live in a society that’s so dominated by the bias of scientific materialism, basically the belief that science rules all, and yet the one or two times, the one time when that is in our favor people are questionable about it. (chuckles) To me, being a more kinda intellectual, science, philosophy, apologetics orientated guy that that’s really frustrating to me. Saidah: So could you give us some historical events that have happened in your lifetime regarding the pro life movement? RJ: When you say historical events, you mean like nationally historical or like historical in my past? Saidah: Both. The progressions that the pro life movement has made. RJ: Well, I don’t, I’m probably not the best person to talk about that because I’ve only really been active for a few years. Ya know a big part of it takes place on the political stage, since that’s how legal action gets done. And I’ve really only started to follow politics or anything for like maybe a year or so. Now I feel like I follow stuff pretty regularly, like in the news and politically and stuff. But, I mean I know that just a few weeks ago like in the state of Mississippi there was a proposal that they called the personhood amendment or something like that, that would establish in Mississippi’s state constitution that personhood begins at conception, basically saying that all human beings are persons. Because that’s basically what the conversation becomes about is human being versus person, you have to start drawing a line in between there when you, when everybody agrees on the scientific fact that a zygote is a new, unique, human organism. Scientifically the fact is that is a human organism that belongs to the human species. And so the pro choice groups have to start coming up with reasons why that’s a human but why it’s not a person when they start drawing this line between being human and being a person. Which I think prior to this or if you were to ask, like a child who tends to have a simplistic view of things, I think it’s kinda more common sense to say that well that all people are people, all humans are people. So basically what this Mississippian amendment tried to do a few weeks ago was define that saying personhood begins when the human begins. And so this was faced with a lot of controversy and the group who organized this legislation wasn’t actually the politicians, it was one of the right to life groups I talked about earlier who focus on the legal aspects. They purposely went to Mississippi into this because Mississippi is one of the most conservative states. And they tried to push this into their constitution so that could defend, so that they could basically try to outlaw abortion within their state. They were purposely doing this because they knew it would be in contradiction to Roe V. Wade. And so their goal was to pass this law, put it into effect and people will challenge it and then their hope was that it would appeal up to the supreme court and then that would prompt a review of Roe V. Wade Page 17 �was their goal basically by trying to pass this amendment in Mississippi. And so I had been really hoping that that would succeed, it did not succeed. Not for reasons because people thought that unborn human beings should not be valuable, it was because, from what I understand, because people were afraid of how it would affect issues of in vitro fertilization, how it would affect some forms of birth control , because some forms of birth control do have the intention of not allowing an embryo to implant in the womb, which would result in the death of a human being. Ya know, that’s a fact. Whether or not the human being is valuable gets back to the issue of, well, personhood. And so that was the concerns that I heard cited most among the people who were against that Mississippi amendment. That could have been a very historical event. My understanding is that they are going to try again, possibly word the amendment differently so that those concerns won’t apply but that would still have the same effect basically. I feel like there was something else recently... Oh, I know Michigan recently outlawed partial birth abortions, which I think is a very good thing. It’s not enough, but it’s a very good thing. Saidah: Sorry to interrupt. What’s partial abortion? RJ: Partial birth abortion is, I honestly can’t believe anybody thinks this is ok, partial birth abortion is treading the line of what is legal and what is not legal. Legally, a human is born when the head is removed from it’s mother’s body. The head, specifically. Ok, so partial birth abortion is a late term abortion, meaning that it’s done like eight. nine, seven weeks into the pregnancy. And they induce labor, remove the child from the womb, they remove the legs, the torso, the arms, everything except for the head. So they literally hold the baby so that only it’s head is still inside it’s mother and then they’ll take scissors and put it into the child’s neck and pierce it and then put a suction into that incision and literally suck out it’s brain. To kill it. Because it’s not legally protected until the head is removed. So they remove everything except for the head and then they kill it. This happens. In our country. Saidah: Seems more gruesome than just regular abortion. RJ: Yes. And it was legal in the state of Michigan up until a couple weeks ago. It’s legal but there has to be certain circumstances of risk of health to the mother, not necessarily certain death but just risks to their health. And then when they define health, they use the United Nations definition of health which includes like economy and proper food and things like that. So it’s not necessarily a risk to their life, it’s a risk to their health. So like if I have this child i’ll have to spend money on it so I won’t be able to buy proper nutrition, ya know, I won’t be able to buy food that is as nutritious as the food that I have right now so therefore having this child is a risk to my health. So I could decide if I were a women and eight months pregnant that I, and there are doctors who are so pro choice that they’ll say ok, just come up with any reason and I’ll do this for you, ‘cause I don’t really think that there should be any rules against this so just come up with some excuse and I’ll be ok with it. And there are doctors who will preform this. There Page 18 �have been many documented cases, the most recent one was in Philadelphia, with an abortion doctor who , sometimes this partial birth abortion procedure goes wrong where the baby might be too slippery or the head is too small and so they’re trying to remove it up to the head but then it all comes out. And so now, legally, it’s a person. Now it’s protected but they wanted to kill it so nobody’s watching so they’ll just kill it anyway, after it’s been born and nobody knows the difference. And so there’s been documented cases of people getting caught doing this and they get charged with murder. Where as if they did it thirty seconds earlier with the head still inside the mother, then it’s ok. This is still legal in most places in the United States. There’s been push back, they tried to ban it nationally and they actually got it passed I believe, during Bill Clinton’s turn as president but he vetoed it I think. I don’t, i’m not sure if that’s correct, that’s what I think happened. So that’s partial birth abortion, it’s now banned in Michigan, thank god. And the thing about this is, the most common excuse for doing that basically is that usually when you’re delivering you want to remove the head first because the head is usually the largest and so if it doesn’t fit basically there’s not an immediate, urgent problem, you can do other things to try to get it to fit. So if you, but it can cause problems for the mother, it can be a risk. And so they’ll say ya know, well the head might be a little too big so this might be a risk, and so then that’s an excuse to do this. Saidah: Alright. Are there any articles, books, films or speeches that made your pro life stance even stronger? RJ: There’s one book that I read recently, by my mentor who I mentioned earlier, his book, he’s an author, called the case for life. Which basically kind of outlines that same apologetic thing that I was talking about earlier like the size of the home environment, degree of dependency type thing. He didn’t coin that, that’s not his, he cites it for who came up with that way of presenting the argument. That book was very good. It also touched on embryonic stem cell research because embryonic stem cell research kills a human being in the embryo stage of development. And that same book kind of addresses, preemptively addresses a lot of pro choice arguments. I mean, that’s the best way to prepare for trying to persuade somebody is to think about your case, think about how people might object to that and then be prepared to address their objections. You gotta be able to play both sides in order, I think, to fully understand an issue. And then that book’s called The case for life. Read that one recently, really liked that one. That’s probably the only book I think I’ve ever read that is specifically about pro life issues. Saidah: Ok. So what is your stance on pro life and rape victims? RJ: In cases of rape, I do not, it does not change what an abortion is. If who I’m talking to accepts, if my roommate is correct that an unborn human being is of the same value and worth as a born human being then it’s basically like saying the mother was abused in this terrible way Page 19 �and therefore we’re going to kill a third party person in order to relieve her suffering. I don’t think that’s ok. People, ya know, will put it as it’s killing the child for the mistakes of the father. I think that is a true explanation of what you’re doing, I think, if you’re actually trying to explain that to somebody you need to go a little bit more in depth than that. I mean, it’s obviously a terrible situation but it still doesn’t make killing a human being ok. There are very rare cases where killing a human being is ok. I’m not saying that it’s completely impossible. Sometimes it is the lesser of two evils. But I don’t think thats proper justification for killing a human being. Obviously those women need and deserve all of our support, ya know I’m not going to say tough luck, ya know that’s obviously not the response that I give. It’s a gracious no I still don’t think it’s ok, I want to help you type of response. Saidah: And students for life would throw out the option of adoption and things of that nature as well correct? RJ: Yeah, that’s always, I guess I probably should have stated that because that’s always just and assumption in my mind that adoption is always an option. Personally, I’ve been affected by the option of adoption (chuckles) heh, that rhymes, I have a little two year old cousin who was recently adopted into our family. He’s going to be the ring bearer in my wedding next summer. I love him and adoption really is beautiful. So it’s, if you were raped and conceived, it doesn’t mean that you’re being condemned to being responsible for another human being for the rest of your life, ya know, like you would be raising a child. There’s that option to allow another couple who wants them to adopt them. And there are enough couples who want to adopt. There are often, like in the debates I’ve been in, they often cite like there are so many children here who don’t have adopting parents yet. But the main reason for that is adopting parents generally want infants and newborns , where as the children who are in foster care and not being adopted are generally more like five, six, seven, teenagers and those, at those ages there are not usually enough parents who want to adopt teenagers. But I mean for newborn infants there are many parents who want to adopt. Saidah: Alright. How do you feel about pro life when it relates to the mother’s health, whether it’s a rape victim or someone who is actively pursuing pregnancy? RJ: So you’re saying like with risk to the mother’s life right? Ok. So this is where we kinda get more into the, I was talking about earlier, sometimes there could be reasons to take the life of a human being. This kinda gets into the stage where people start to think well maybe it is. So and what, this is more kinda, my understands of the catholic church’s position on abortion, these issues. I think most people agree with them, it’s what I believe makes a lot of sense and is just. Ok so lets say that there’s a pregnancy that is developing complications that is, there is some risk of the mother dying because of it. Alright, so lets say that to the best of our medical knowledge we can say that this pregnancy has a lets say one third chance of taking the Page 20 �mother’s life. Alright, so if the pregnancy were to take the mother’s life it would then take the life of the unborn child because the child can’t survive without the mother. Right. So both the mother and the child have a one third chance of dying in this case. So we can ethically preform a procedure to try to remove the complications as long as the purpose isn’t to just directly kill the unborn human being. The solution can’t be to kill this person to save that person. We can do a procedure that has a chance of helping both of the human beings survive and so if there’s a one third chance you can preform a procedure to try and help the mother that has like up to a one third chance of resulting in the death of the unborn human being because the unborn human being already is at a one third chance of dying. And so any procedure that has the potential of helping it that still has that one third chance of resulting, ya know, might accidentally kill the unborn child hasn’t put the unborn child at any greater injustice, it’s had a, it’s been an effort to try to help both human beings survive. Saidah: Would an example of that be the new medical advances, for example in utero surgery and things of that nature? RJ: Mmmhmm. I guess I kinda jumped right off to the complicated answer. I think the simple answer is I think every effort should be made to save the mother and every effort made to save the child. I believe they are of equal intrinsic value. Because none of the differences between them change how much they’re worth. So they both, so there’s two lives here that we’re trying to save, we should do everything we can to save both of them. And so there’s a difference here between having a risk to the mother’s life and a certainty of taking the mother’s life. If there’s a certainty that the pregnancy is going to end the mother’s life, which is really more kind of a hypothetical situation, then there’s also a certainty that the unborn child is going to die as well. And so if you do a procedure that has almost a certainty of killing the unborn child but that isn’t the goal of it, like if there’s just a minute chance that the procedure may save both lives, even if there’s like a 99.9% chance that it’s going to kill the unborn human being, there’s still that .1% chance that you’re aiming for in doing this, then it would be moral to do that. Basically, it’s as long as the intention isn’t to actively kill the unborn human being then it’s an ethical procedure. Saidah: Ok. And so why do you think abortion is still legal when media and movies are always advocating having the child? Do you think the media will help the pro life cause? RJ: I think that the media does not help the pro life cause overall. Specifically like in the news media and things like that. This kinda goes for all issues that are deemed liberal. I think it’s pretty obvious that most of the media is liberally biased. That’s debatable though. Like in T.V. shows and things like that, your right in that T.V. series that have had pregnancies worked into the plot, they’ve realized that ending the pregnancy with abortion isn’t good for ratings. People don’t like that. The reason I think abortion is still legal is because, well there’s a couple different things. I think one of them, which is a kinda even bigger issue of why things are the way they Page 21 �are is a belief in subjective morality and that people, there’s this pretty dominant belief amongst like the youth in particular that there’s really no such thing as right and wrong, and that it’s up to each individual to determine what’s right and wrong. I would love to have a conversation with somebody about that by itself. That’s another one of those issues I was talking about earlier, where my focus on pro life apologetics has branched out into these other issues and this belief of subjective morality. I really like to have that conversation with people and the apologetics of that and whether or not that really is true. And this is seen in things like you shouldn’t force your beliefs on other people, is something I hear people often say. I think that’s a contradictory statement. I could go into a long schpeel about why that’s a contradictory statement but that’s a very dominant belief and so the problem here is even people who believe abortion is wrong think that it should be a personal issue to everybody. Ya know. I think that’s one of the big reasons people who, and another one of the reasons is because there’s really kind of a spectrum of where peoples believes fall. There’s people who are extremely pro choice and say all nine months of pregnancy shouldn’t have to have any reasons, you can just have an abortion for whatever you want. Versus the very pro life end which says no. You should never have an abortion, it’s never ok. And one of the problems is I think most people, I feel safe saying that most people believe that abortion out of convenience is not ok. Alright. And the fact is that most abortions are out of convenience. Convenience being like social, economical reasons. Well, like, ya know I could support this child but I’d be very poor if I did so I’d rather kill it would be a social economical reason. So most people agree that abortion out of convenience is wrong but they still hold onto well, in cases of incest, rape and threats to the mother’s life, then it’s still ok, is what, I think there’s a pretty good chunk of the American population holds that type of position. And the thing is, is that if you have that type of position you are pro life on 99% of pregnancy cases. Alright. But since they still hold onto those few exceptions they consider themselves pro choice and then therefore when it comes to like a vote or politically, they agree that we should have the choice to have an abortion. So I think one of the problems is that on this big long spectrum, people that are even on the pro life end consider, they call themselves pro choice. I think that’s one of the problems. So that, subjective morality, media bias, I’d probably say those are the three main reasons. Saidah: Ok. Does the pro life movement support or advocate abstinence? RJ: No. We don’t really take a position on abstinence versus... I don’t know, what’s contrary abstinence? Promiscuity? Promiscuity? (all chuckle) We don’t take a stance on that. I think that if we were all to come to the conclusion that having sex results in a new human being we would all take it a lot more seriously. I think it, I think that being pro choice encourages the nonabstinence only lifestyle. Because I mean if reproducing doesn’t really create another human being and you can just get rid of it if you want, well then there’s not much responsibility involved in it. Right, then the only issue becomes not getting a disease. Which I guess if you Page 22 �really, i’m not speaking from experience, but I mean I guess if you were really careful you could avoid that pretty well and so it kinda becomes more of a thing for pleasure. I don’t think it’s just a thing for pleasure. Personally I would encourage abstinence before marriage but i’m not going to argue for that as strongly as I will for the pro life cause because I believe that abortion takes the life of another human being, where as I think that if you have sex outside of marriage without the abortion part related to it, I really just think you’re kind of hurting yourself. I think in the end you’d be happier if you didn’t do that. I mean, you’re only hurting yourself so I’ll defend your right to choose to do that, where as I will NOT defend your right to choose to take the life of another human being. Saidah: Ok. So the pro life movement’s more of a let me help you with the decision you’re faced with right now, not a preventative type of measure. RJ: There are some pro life groups who probably do purposely encompass the more preventative stuff, but we don’t officially take a stand on that. Saidah: Well thank you very much R.J.. We very much appreciate it. RJ: You’re welcome. I enjoyed it. Saidah: Yes, thank you. Are there any other, you know, last minute comments you want to give us? RJ: No, nothing. (chuckles) No, not really into this. Saidah: Well thank you R.J.! END OF INTERVIEW Page 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/403d33c69c30ae5983a093494c6d0924.mp3 7f7a1eb95aedae53aec09044a8258be1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McVeigh_Raymond Title A name given to the resource Raymond McVeigh audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McVeigh, Raymond Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Miller, Saidah Biggs, Lauren Description An account of the resource Raymond McVeigh discusses his involvement with the Pro-Life movement as a Catholic. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-29 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f28159584cc73be7011c640549a7ebcc.pdf f66a31314adabbfe77a21d198578a238 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Bryce Kyle Interviewers: Melanie Shell-Weiss Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/11/2011 Runtime: 00:06:26 Biography and Description Bryce Kyle sings a song entitled “The Mankind of Struggle.” He is accompanied by guitar. Transcript 1910 to 1930 Two million black men moved to the city Red yellow black and white, that there’s a difference is histories great plight Ida Mae Brandon’s great fight, which man to pick, man their all alright Robert Joseph Pershing, served his country, yeah alright -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me The orchard fields boxed up all nice and tight, they too will go on the great flight Page 1 �Give me a hog and give me some land sir, I’d ask for dignity but looks like you got none to spare Simmons girl tell me what do you see, the price for freedom, I hear it’s a high fee Butler girl damn you have quite the voice, take it to Washington, let them hear you rejoice -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me A man with a dream speaks out into the crowd, shots fired I suppose he was to proud They know what to do when we get out of place, there’s no room for us in their idea of grace Malcolm X I hear you my good sir, scream loudly and you might get some to care Speak boldly and then you’ll see, they’ll take a shotgun to end your cry and plea -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me Page 2 �LORD you are my shepherd and you lead me right Restoreth my soul LORD in you I take flight Give me your righteousness O’ I know you care I pray your equity sets us in all that’s fair Restore the innocent God I know your love Let your power come, Lord Jesus I need you now Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. END OF INTERVIEW Page 3 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6cc09ad654c6086a5016f34007113070.mp3 d30bda494e61e0258988cee8ec15ecea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Kyle_Bryce Title A name given to the resource Mankind of Struggle, The Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bryce Kyle Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melanie Shell-Weiss Description An account of the resource Bryce Kyle sings a song entitled "The Mankind of Struggle." He is accompanied by guitar. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c3759c082fb95b408f14ad4377331109.pdf b8a72c2bf8092f2d6e9d67d7b58432a9 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jordan Serla Interviewers: Julie Doescher, DeVonte Jones and Krysten Velderman Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/15/2011 Runtime: 01:05:44 Biography and Description Jordan Serla discusses growing up gay in a small town. Transcript Julie: How old are you? Jordan: I’m 18 Julie: And, what is your gender? Jordan: Uhm… male (laughs loudly). Julie: What is your sexual orientation? Jordan: I’m gay (laughs). Julie: If you could describe yourself, uhm, how would you like, identify yourself? Using anything you can think of by using 3 or 4 words. Jordan: Definitely diva, uh, I can be a bitch (everyone laughs). Uhm, I’m a riot. I’ve never had someone hang out with me that didn’t want to hang out with me afterwards (laughs). Uh, you can ask Rachel I’m a riot (laughs). And, I’m crazy. Julie:(laughs) Okay. (all laugh). Julie: Tell me a little about your childhood, what it was like growing up. Jordan: Uhm, I grew up like, like, if you saw me now, you would not even dare to think that I grew up the way that I did. Uhm, I grew up in, well I started out in Saginaw Township, which was a nice little town, I mean if you get to the wrong side of Saginaw it’s a little bit iffy there, but (laughs) I grew up in the Township area, I went to school there blah, blah, blah. Had an awesome childhood in, for the most part, but I mean uhm, and then I moved to Decatur, do you want all of the childhood details? (laughs) Page 1 �Julie: Yeah, definitely! Jordan: Okay (laughs). Because uhm, I mean, when I was little I, in probably 2nd grade, I filed child abuse on my dad, my step dad because he was very, very like, aggressive. Julie: It was your step dad? Jordan: Yeah Julie: Okay Jordan: Like, I mean there were lots of times, where he would just like. I remember one time I left my coat on the floor downstairs, and he just picked me up and whipped me down the stairs and I smacked my head on the back, on the table that was down there. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Yeah, it was bad. Like, any time he came around me, like one time he chased me down the stairs and picked me up, and I just pissed my pants because I was so scared (he laughs). Julie: All gasp, oh my gosh. Jordan: I was pissed cause I loved those jeans (laughs) (Everyone laughs loudly.) Jordan: But uhm. Julie: And was your mom and real dad present or? Jordan: Uhm, my mom and real dad separated when I was one. So, my step dad came into my life when I was 3, married my mom when I was 5, uhm, around 6 is when he started getting like, aggressive, and violent towards me and my brother. And uhm, like uh, it was just… I knew it was wrong and my brother just like, never did anything about it. Like, any time child protective services would try to help, he would deny it and then like, my mom would go in and tell them I was crazy. (laughs) Julie: Is your brother older or younger? Jordan: Yeah, he’s 21. Julie: Okay Jordan: Yup Julie: But, uh. Julie: So your mom didn’t do anything or? Jordan: Nope, she denies it to this day. Julie: And your dad, does he know anything? Page 2 �Jordan: Yep, yep he knew about a lot of it, he tried to do what he could, but uhm, I mean when you’re, he’s a cop, so you can’t really do anything. Julie: Yeah.. okay. Jordan: And uhm, so that’s how that went. Uhm, it continued for a long time until I started getting older and he started calming down. Stopped doing it as much, like, stopped all that. Uhm, like, it happened a few times when I was in, like 7th and 8th grade. That kind of stuff, that was after we moved to Decatur. Julie: Okay Jordan: I went from like, a normal suburb life to like, hick town in the country (groans) (All laugh quietly) (He laughs.) (We all laugh.) Jordan: Uhm, that was kind of an interesting place. It just, like I think that’s the place that made me strong. Uhm, Julie: And why is that? Jordan: Uhm, just because like, being the way I was, like I mean, I wasn’t open. But, I still, you could kinda tell. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I wore fashionable clothes, and, like, my hair was always done up and stuff like that, you could tell but I still reached my way to the top of the popularity pyramid at a hick town. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, high school. Like, if I can do that, then what can’t I do. Julie: Is your, do you talk to your step dad? Jordan: Uhm, Julie: Like, right now or? Jordan: Uhm, if I go over there I’ll say high and that’s it. I don’t talk to him unless I need him. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: For various cop stuff, (laughs) Julie: And, would you say that your family is close? Or your you know, with your brother, you only have one brother? Page 3 �Jordan: I have 6 siblings. Julie: Oh wow. Okay Jordan: Eh, yeah. Jordan: And the thing is, my dad, uhm, he had my older sister. She’s 26. She’s heavily into meth (laughs). Julie: Okay. Jordan: Everyone’s got their problems. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: Uhm, she, she does, yeah we don’t really talk to her right now, because of all that, but yeah, uhm. And then I have two half brothers from there I have a step brother that’s from my dad’s new wife, uhm, and then I have two little sisters that my mom and step dad had, uhm, like, when I was 7. My little sister was born when I was 7, yeah. And then the other one when I was 10. Julie: Okay. And then are you close with them, or Jordan: Not really. Julie: Okay Jordan: I mean I was really close to my sister, she was my idol, and like, growing up it was like Shawna… she was there. She was the coolest sister ever, but now it’s like… Julie: Oh. The one that Jordan: Yeah… that one. Uhm, yeah now it’s like, I can’t believe what you turned into because you had so much potential. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And that kind of thing, but uhm, my brother is the one that I’m closest with. Julie: Okay Jordan: Uhm, he’s actually, like, cause we grew up every day together. Like, he was my only, he’s my only full blood brother. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like all my other siblings are half siblings, and uhm, well… yeah so that’s the ones I’m close with. As far as my other family goes, I’m not really a family person. I’ve always felt closer with my friends than I ever have with my family. Uhm, my mom even though all the stuff with my childhood I try to move on with it because, when no one else was around, me and my mom had a bond that was like no other. Page 4 �Like, we just get each other we have the same sense of humor, like, just do the same things. Like, both hard core bitches (all laugh). Julie: And your dad? Jordan: Uhm, my dad. I got a pretty good relationship with my dad. Uhm, I just saw him a couple of days ago. Like I mean, I’ve been around my dad, when I was… uhm sophomore year, my whole life, ever since, probably like 8th grade I’ve gone down to Saint Joe, and, uhm, stayed with my aunt and uncle, like all summer, and like the weekends and stuff like that. Like the weekends after I got my car and I could drive down there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: But, I would go and stay the whole summers, and they gave me a job so I could make money, uhm, they put me in a good environment, uhm around kids where I could learn and like, they just taught me a bunch of stuff that, you know, like your parents, my parents didn’t give a shit enough to tell me, and my dad couldn’t be there for me, so, Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Uhm, there was that. So that’s how I ended up in Saint Joe. Uhm, how I moved, I moved junior year to Plainwell, and that was pretty much the breaking point of that was going to Saint Joe and seeing my uncle and living with them for the summers and weekends was like what kept me going in life. It was just, it kept me motivated. And uhm, let me know what I wanted in life. And, uhm, my step dad uhm, didn’t like that, and we were seeing a therapist, a family therapist at the time. Because… they thought I was crazy (laughs nervously). But, uhm, and then the therapist said that he needs to spend more time with his family, and that’s the last thing I wanted to because I hated them. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, so, I told my dad that they weren’t going to let me go over to my aunt’s house anymore, and, he’s like, well that’s it and he told my step mom, and my step mom’s like okay, you can move in with us next year. Start school over here, and uhm, that’s what I did. I moved to Plainwell, bigger school. More opportunities, loved it. Graduated early, I haven’t been in school (gasps) for like 9 months now, (laughs). (All laugh) Jordan: It’s been awesome. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: I start school in December though, but it’s a school that I actually like. Julie: Okay. And, uhm, what would you say your hobbies are, what do you like to do? Jordan: I like to draw (quietly laughs) Looks around because there are paintings up on his walls of his artwork. Page 5 �(All quietly laugh). Jordan: I like to paint. Julie: Uh-huh (laughs) Obviously. Jordan: I love to shop, and I love to spend money. (All laugh again). Julie: that be something… painting… that be something that maybe would be a possible career choice? Jordan: Uhm, the arts is a career that I’m going into. Julie: Okay Jordan: If, like, you look at the artistic point of view, I’m going into cosmetology. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, my dad’s best friends daughter is a runway model out in L.A. Julie: Wow. Jordan: So, as soon as I finish school, I’m gonna go to Chicago next year, get some experience, like learn how to do what I need to do, and then I’m goin straight out to L.A. and work my way to the top.. A-List, here I come! Julie: (All laugh) Awesome, so what would you want to do as your career, like, be a hair stylist in L.A.? Jordan: Yeah, for celebrities. I’m gonna be a platform artist I never wanna work in a salon, after I get my experience because I’ve worked in a salon as a receptionist and I’ve seen how evil those bitches are. And I do not want to live a life where I have to go to that every day, and deal with that, and just, the petty, stupidity. So I’m gonna be a platform artist, and do my own stuff. I’m gonna do hair shows, celebrities, that kind of thing. Runways, all that stuff. Julie: Okay, awesome. Jordan: That’s the stuff that I like. I don’t want to be tied down (half laughs). Julie: Uhm, so you said that, uhm you were really close with a lot of your friends, as oppose to family, uhm, so what kind of people did you hang out with? Has it changed from who you hang out with now in high school, or? Jordan: Uhm, I’ve always been really good at finding like, legit friends. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 6 �Jordan: Like, uhm, I’ve had the same, I’ve always like, because I am gay, I’ve always needed a guy best friend and a girl best friend. My guy best friend I found when I was in 6th grade. We’re still friends to this day, like, talk to him all the time. Julie: Wow Jordan: Uhm… so, it’s been a long time (laughs) Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: So, but I’ve always switched girl best friends because I’ve never found the right fit. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, but when I do pick em, I pick them really good. Like, all my best friends that I have had, I still talk to em. Like, I still talk to them and I’m still close with them it’s just there not.. there. Right now I’ve I’ve found the one. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, it’s Tara (laughs). She’s my best friend. Like I could talk to that girl about anything, so comfortable around her. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, we do the most stupid shit ever (all laugh). We just sit there and laugh. (Laugh again). Jordan: Uhm, so like as far as friends go, like, I mean, the kind of friends that I hang out, have all varied, uhm, I’ve figured out that, although I listen to pop music, and I love country, and like, all that bubbly like, like (laughs) dancin music, uhm.. I love all that. And all, my two closest friends are all like into die hard death metal screamo, like nasty like I feel like Satan’s gonna come out of my radio (all laugh again). Uhm, so there like, there kinda rocker-ish. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: So they’re different from you? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: You like that? Jordan: Yeah, they’re like opposite of me. Uhm. Like I don’t get how I can become such good friends with people like that. But, it just happens (laughs). Julie: Yeah Page 7 �Jordan: Love it Julie: Uhm, are you religious? Jordan: Uhm, I’m not really religious. Julie: Okay, have you ever been or are your parents? Jordan: Parents, definitely. My mom always told me that gayness was devil spirits in your brain possessing you. Which now, just sounds crazy to me. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Uhm, I don’t believe in the Bible. I believe that uhm, if you look it up; the opposite of godly is religion. And uhm, so I’ve just I kind of believe what I believe. I believe that there’s a greater thing up there. Cause, like I mean, when I’ve been in shitty situations I pray, and, everything gets resolved so, it makes me feel like there’s something up there, and just the thought of it makes me feel more comfortable. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Knowing that, there is something. But as far as like, the Bible goes, and sinning. I don’t believe in sinning, that’s crazy. How can, how could you just be put on this earth, and, then given, how is a man supposed to die for your sins and, like, now like, you can sin and be forgiven? Like, I don’t believe there are sins, I believe that there is choices that you make, and there’s right and wrong choices, of course, but as far as sins go, and there’s something wrong, and like, God’s just frowning down on you for doing that, like, that’s just crazy. (Laughs). I just don’t believe in that, and if you do, that’s fine. But, that’s just not something I believe in. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I mean, I believe Jesus is there. I believe God ‘s there, but, as far as like, God doesn’t like that, that you did that, like, I don’t like that. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: I mean I do believe in karma, what goes around comes around. And, I mean I’ve definitely had my fair share of bad karma, and I’ve had my fair share of good karma (a horn beeping goes off from his cell phone) and I’m at that point in my life where I realize, doing stupid things like stealing from people, like that (points to a gnome he stole) brings bad karma. Like, I mean, that’s not something I want in my life, and you know, I’ve gotten a couple doses of good karma in my life and I like it too much to give it up (we laugh) (he laughs), so ha. Julie: And when your mom did tell you that uhm, she didn’t, you know, uh, did you believe that at the time? Were you young? Or, like does she still think that, tell you that? Or has she changed? Jordan: (Laughs) Uhm, she won’t tell me that now because I’m pretty sure she has an idea (we laugh). She’s always asking my brother, and my brother’s like “Uh I don’t know ha ha” Page 8 �(We laugh). Jordan: He’s like, it’s not my decision to tell her. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Cause it’s not, but uhm. (Laughs). Well, uhm… like I mean it was always in the back of my mind growing up. Like, just like, uhm. I was actually home schooled for two years. I missed that part in my schooling debate that I was telling you about. (All laugh). Jordan: Uhm, 7th and 8th grade I was home schooled which I look back, and am so thankful I was because that’s like your awkward stage where you have time to grow, and I was like, the, I was the, really big like loser, like dirty kid, like uhm. I just, like, the bad kid that’s always gettin into trouble at school. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, like, 5th and 6th grade, and then 7th and 8th grade I had time to grow and like find myself without all these other kids around me judging me all the time, ya know, that kind of thing, I got a chance to kind of like, figure it out, and what I was doing, and like, stuff like that, so. When I went back to high school my freshman year, I was, uhm, it was like my year of adjustment like getting back into everything, and ya know, I was, I made a lot of other friends, and like, some of the people I grew up in 5th and 6th grade like, like, they were a lot different towards me now, and somehow I worked my way up from the chain, and everybody loved me now. Like I can still go back, like I can go to a football game, and they’ll all be there. And I’ll walk through, and they’ll be like AHHHH, (laughs), like they’ll still be all like crazy towards me. Julie: (All laugh). That’s awesome. Jordan: Like they’ll still be all crazy towards me. Julie: Uhm, when did you first know, was there a point? Jordan: I’ve always known. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Always. Julie: So like, really young? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: And what, why happened? Was there any significant moment, or no? Jordan: Uhm, I don’t know you know you can tell that I’m really girly. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 9 �Jordan: Like, I’ve just always been that way. Like when I was little, I used to dress up like a girl. Like I mean I know that’s really weird, but yeah I totally did. And all the time so. My whole family just thought it was weird, but they thought maybe we just have a weird kid. Like, so I’ve always known. Uhm, I don’t know I remember watching tv and like, stuff was getting more sexual and there were guys on the tv that were shirtless and I was like, damnn (laughs). (All laugh loudly). Jordan: So, like I mean I just kind of, like girls, like when you, when you start liking boys you don’t like boys when you’re little, you know, you just don’t. But I remember being little and like being in love with Nick Carter from Backstreet Boys. (All laugh). Julie: Uhm, so, do…have you told your, have you, you’ve told your parents? Or no? Or do they just have some kind of clue? Have you told your brothers and sisters? Jordan: My mom is on to me (laughs). My brother, he, I have like, when I was 15, well since I was 15 I’ve had like an iPod Touch, and I always have these gay apps where I was able to talk to people, and stuff like that, so one time, and I always kept my iPod locked, and then one time I let my brother into it, and he found it, and like with my friend Holly, who lives with me right now, (laughs), so, well she doesn’t live with me right now but she lives like over there in the same apartment complex, but, uhm, but, uhm… oh snap what was I saying. I hate that I get sidetracked, stoner mind. Julie: About Holly, and… Jordan: Oh, well they found that, and like two years went by. And never, never said anything to my brother, even though I knew he knew, because Holly told me of course, and uhm like, him and Holly dated for a while, and like had a little thing, but never really dated, but that’s how I know her and now we’re like tight. She comes over here every night after work and we have girl talk. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, she’ll come over here tonight. Uhm, but… my brother and me, I don’t even remember exactly how it went down. I think he said something and I was just like whatever, because my junior year of high school, I moved to a new school. The way I looked at it is, like Decatur, I already ran that school. Like I already know what it’s like to be the most popular kid in school. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And like, I knew what it was like to be that, you know when I moved to Plainwell, I just wanted real friends. You know? Like, I didn’t, I didn’t want all the showboaty every time I walked down the hallway. Like, I didn’t care about that anymore. I just wanted to have a good high school experience for the time that was left there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 10 �Jordan: Uhm, so when I got there, I didn’t like seek anything out. I still became pretty popular there just on my own, but I didn’t like, I didn’t like go to all the parties that they went to or stuff like that. Uhm, I didn’t like go to the football games or anything, I just hung out with my friends. And like, I had a really close group of friends. Like, one of my closest friends that I used to sit with at lunch every day, every time like, we had trimesters, and we’d always switch lunches and stuff like that, and somehow he always ended up in my lunch, but Drake Black goes to uhm GVSU, and we went to high school together. Uhm, but yeah, he was one of my close friends. I just had this close circle, like, if we hung out after school we’d all hang out, like a bunch of stoners. (All laugh). Jordan: But, like we’d just hang out and do our thing, and uhm, but it was a lot of fun. I found a lot more enjoyment with life by just enjoying it, instead of seeking it out and throughout my high school years when I was living with my mom I was so angry all the time, like, I was such a bitch. That’s how I got to popular, because there were like these girls that would like, think they were all that, and I would just go up and say it to their face, you’re fat and you’re nasty and you’re a piece of shit get the heck out of here. Ya know, I’d just like, I would just give it to them and everyone loved that. Like, they loved having that person who would just say it to their face because no one else would. Ya know, you’d be like “Oh my god I hate that girl, she’s so stupid. I wish someone would just go up and tell her”, and I would be like, I’ll do it. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: It was just all my anger, and I’ve always been ruthless like that. (Laughter again). Julie: And did your friends, and your friends knew. Did you ever talk to them about it? Or they just knew? Jordan: Uhm, my friends at Decatur didn’t know. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Like, I mean I’m sure they had their suspicions. Julie: And you never talked about it? Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Now they know. I mean, if you saw the outfit that I showed up in for graduation there, like I went back and watched all my friends walk, of course. Uhm, but if you saw what I wore, it was pretty obvious. And like, I just, once I moved to Plainwell I stopped caring what people thought, and so I just kinda like, if people asked if I was gay I would be like, yeah (laughs) I am. Julie: But, before uhm, you moved there, you said you would say no? Or would you deny it? Jordan: Yeah, I would totally deny it. Page 11 �Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: I wasn’t comfortable there. And plus it was like a total hick town, but, the thing is like I’ve gone back totally openly gay, and like, when I wear shorts, I wear short shorts. Like, ya know and like, in the summer, I’m totally dressed like a slut, but. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: Like I went back there, and like, they all still like, treat me the same. Which just goes to show ya, like the people that lived there. They were good people. Julie: Yeah, definitely. Julie: Uhm, so, who was the hardest person to tell in your life, or, Jordan: Is going to be? Julie: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Jordan: Uhm, probably my dad because he is so oblivious. Julie: Really? Jordan: Yes, like. I, I’m the biggest girl in the world. He likes to hunt, and like do all this stuff. Like don’t get me wrong, I can shoot a gun like no other. I was down, I went shooting down with Greg at the shooting range, like when you shoot the clay pigeons, well, I went down there and there’s just like all these manly men with their guns and I’m like walkin up in some tight ass jeans with Ugg boots and my hair and a scarf. And like, they’re just looking at me like, what the fuck is this kid doing here? (Laughter) Jordan: I get out there with my gun, just, bam bam bam! (Laughter again) Jordan: And they’re just like, (mouth open). Cause I shot better than like most of them. Like my dad’s always taken me shooting and stuff like that. He tried to get me into hunting but, my first time deer hunting I swear to God I just sat there, I was just like (crosses his legs and looks up in the air and sighs many times). Jordan: (All laugh). Really? I’m goin back, I’m gonna eat (he laughs). Sat out there for maybe an hour (we laugh). And then I was like, this is stupid. Julie: But you don’t think that your dad knows? Jordan: Umm, like, my, my step mom has like said things to my siblings, and my siblings have said things to me about her saying things to them about it, and like, my dad is just so oblivious to it. And it’s like so weird, like because, any time he wants to do something. Like, he likes to garden and I’m like ew dad, no. I don’t like dirt; it gets underneath my fingernails (we laugh). It dries out my hands, and it’s disgusting! Page 12 �(All laugh again). Jordan: And, uh, it’s just so bad because he’s seriously like, sooo straight. It’s ridiculous. Like my dad’s a whore. Well, like not right now but he was. (Laughter). He’s just like, pussy pussy pussy. And he’s always talking about it still, still to this day. And I’m just like, ew. (All laugh again loudly). Julie: Uhm, who would be the easiest person to tell and why? Jordan: Like, that I haven’t already told? Julie: Yeah. Julie: Or who was the easiest person, that you just knew from the minute that you were gonna tell them, it was gonna be okay? Jordan: The easiest person to tell was probably my best friend in Plainwell High School. Her name was Kelly. Have you met Kelly? (Looks over at his friend). Ginger, long hair. Red hair, she’s like the prettiest ginger you’ll ever see, because a pretty one doesn’t come around that often. Uhm, but yeah, she’s probably the easiest just because like, as I said, when I moved to Plainwell I just didn’t care anymore. Like I just wanted to be liked for me. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like.. Julie: And what happened, how did she react? Jordan: She loved it. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, have you ever met a girl who doesn’t want a girl best friend? Julie: (Everyone shakes head, agrees) I know, what? (Everyone laughs) Jordan: Like I.. Julie: So true. Jordan: Like, when I was in high school I’d get all these girls that would like, wanted to go shopping with me, blah blah blah, and stuff like that, and to me, like, that’s not what makes a friend. Like my best friend Kelly, like that, we were best friends through high school, we were still just talking today, she texted me but I ignored it today because I was out, but, uhm, like we still talk all the time that’s where I got the cat from. And like, we’ve been shopping together once. And it didn’t happen until two years after we were best friends. (All laugh). Page 13 �Jordan: Like, that just goes to show you all these girls come up and go, let’s go shopping blah blah blah, it’s just like, I’m lookin for real friends, not these girls that just want me to go shopping with them just because they think I have good taste. Like, you can just tell, everyone wants a best gay friend. Julie: Okay, uhm, are you involved in anything like, community outreach, or something like that? Or were you in high school? Jordan: Uhm, I did not do anything in high school. Extra curricular was not my thing. I hated high school with a passion that burned like the sun. I loved friends, I loved going in there every day like and, seriously throughout entire high school I didn’t care where I was, never wore sweatpants to school. Always in jeans, always dressed up, always did my hair, like a bad hair day happened.. twice in my entire 4 years. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Yeah, like I never just put it up in a clip or something. Like I always, I always did it. So it was just like always perfect there. And like, uhm, I just, I went for the friends. I hated high school and I didn’t want to help out my school at all. I didn’t do any of that. Depending on the job that I get when I’m up here, because of what I’m looking into, uhm (chuckles), it will determine. Because I thought, maybe getting into some charities, for uhm, people who have had siblings or something that are involved in meth, or helping a little bit in the gay community, but I believe that the gays are fine they’re just big drama queens. (All laugh). Julie: Uhm, how did you feel after you told people, uh, did you think it was a mistake? Do you have any doubts, or? Jordan: Uhm, the first person I ever told was my best friend Matt. Julie: And, how old were you? Jordan: I was, in 7th grade. Wait no, probably 8th grade. Because we were friends all throughout 6th, and like what not, and like we were just best friends so I mean, I knew I had to tell him. So basically I just started toying around with him, because I was always, always very “toyative” with people. Uhm, I don’t even know if that’s a real world. (We all laugh). Jordan: But it described and uhm. Like that’s what, I uh, kind of toyed around with the idea. He thought I was just joking at first, and then I told him and he took it really well so eventually he kinda just found out that for, legit I was and he took it just fine, so after that, I mean I still went through high school with an indicator like, trying to like, just keep my rep the way it was. Keep myself at the top, cause in a school like that you don’t want to fall down to the bottom. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 14 �Jordan: And uhm, (laughs), yeah. Julie: Uhm, have you dated anyone, like, for a long time, or recently? Jordan: It’s funny that you, brought that up because, 3 days ago was my anniversary for being single for 3 years. (Laughs) So way to bring that up! Julie: (All laugh), sorry! Jordan: No, the way I look at it is, the only thing that I’ve ever had is a one night stand, which, I mean, that’s just the kind of person I am. Julie: And, do you like that? Is that, would you want a relationship? Jordan: Eventually. But where I’m going in life, I don’t want anything gettin in the way of that. Like I see all my girlfriends that like, go out and they date these guys and then they feel like shit afterwards and then like, they fuck with them and it’s just so much boy drama… I don’t want any of that. Like, right now Julie: You just want to have fun. Jordan: I just want to have fun. Honestly there’s nothin wrong with me being the way that I am I don’t think. Like, I’ve never really felt the urge to, like I mean I went on a date today, but, like, just out to lunch, but. Julie: But you do date people? Jordan: I mean, it depends. Like, I’m waitin for the right one. I’m very picky. I mean I’ve gone out with people, but I’ve never dated them dated them. Like, this is my boyfriend. (Ha). Like I’ve never had that, I mean, basically when I get a little bit tipsy I get a little slutty, and one thing leads to another, and I have a night of fun and that’s it. And then I’m content for awhile. Krysten: How do you meet these people? Jordan: I’ll meet them at a party, online, whatever. Like, don’t worry, online I’m very careful. (He laughs). I’m not like, okay let’s meet right now! You can come over no one’s here. (All laugh). Jordan: No, it’s like, I’m very careful. I make them send me like multiple pictures, and if any of them look photo edited, or like, like, like, you just went to Google and googled someone hot, and like put them on there. Hell no, you’re not comin anywhere near me. Like I’m very careful about it, but cause like I might be a blonde, and I might be a little bit ditzy, and I mean, but I got a brain on me. (Laughs) Krysten: That’s good. Jordan: Not gonna lie about it (he laughs). Julie: Uhm, what is your definition of discrimination? Page 15 �Jordan: Like, what do you mean? Julie: Just, whatever you feel like, if… if anyone’s ever discriminated against you, and what you think? Jordan: I’ve never been offended by much. As I said, I feel like the gay community’s just a bunch of drama queens and they just need to chill out. Like, I went to hick town high school and I was just fine there. Like, if I can make it through that then.. they can make it through crap. I mean, the word “faggot” pisses me off, only if it’s said multiple times. Like, but that’s a fightin word. If someone called you a faggot wouldn’t you like, get ready to beat their ass? (We laugh). Jordan: Yeah, if someone came up and was just like, faggot, like, no one likes that word. But, that’s probably the only word like, gay discriminative that I don’t like. But if like someone just says it to me when I’m walking past them, then I’m just like, whatever. But, no one has ever really discriminated against me in a way that’s really upset me. Julie: Okay. DeVonte: Have you ever been mistreated, like after you came out? Jordan: Uhm, I mean, like when I went, in high school at Plainwell, I had this like, class, and it was just like, oh my God it was wretched. It was a math class, and of course I got stuck with, and it was the only class that I’ve ever had to take for an entire year at Plainwell. Uhm, because we run on trimesters so every twelve weeks we get new classes, new schedules, new teachers, new everything. Which I loved that about it, because it was more collegy. Like, less prisoney. (Laughs). Jordan: And uhm, these, this class of people was the one that I got stuck with for 3 trimesters because it was, uhm, a 1.5 credit class and uhm, which is just awesome that I got an extra credit for doing stuff that people would only get one credit from, but, like, there was me, and then there was this weird girl that sat above me, in front of me, or no it was this kid, and then this weird girl, and then there was just weird people. Ya know, like just those nerdy kids that no one talks to. (Laughs). Well they all sat around me and I kind of sat in the back of them, and there was like the punk ass kids that thought they were too cool, in a little L, and there was probably 4 of them. And then on the other side they would all move their desks to the other side, it was like, oh my god, it was like, the trailer park, like, nasty, like redneck hillbillies, oh my god, they were completely wretched (laughter). And they would sit there and make derogatory comments about everything and about everybody, and the stuff that came out of their mouth, you could tell they were just so uneducated, and like, like, half of them failed the class. It was just really, really dumb. Like, I mean, and, they’d sit there and some of them would bash on me, and like, I’d just smile, and be like “stupid idiots”. Because I got the highest grade in the class. I passed Algebra II with a fucking 98, beat that (laughs). Page 16 �Jordan: Uhm, like I’d always wear Uggs, and they used to like say, “girl boots”, and like, like, just like, say something, like, crap what would they say. Something about I’ll whoop your ass in your girl boots, or whatever, but then I just think to myself and say, why the fuck do you even care? Julie: Mhm-hm. Julie: And what did people around you say, like what did they think or did they do anything or did they just like? Jordan: I have like, like Tara, when she sees people look at me bad, like she goes full force, like bitch on them. Like we were sittin at Cedar Point, and there were these two little girls and they were (laughs) 9 or 10, (all laugh) and they like look back at me, and the one goes up to the other one and goes, “he’s gay”. Tara’s like, “YES, he is”. (Everyone laughs loudly). Jordan: And then they’d like, keep looking back, and then Tara would just be like “What bitch”? Her parents are right there and they kind of look back, and I’d like look at them like, “what, do something bitch”? Like, she fires me up about it. I don’t usually notice anymore, cause like I just live my life and focus on what I’m doing, and like, that’s just how I am but she’ll point it out to me and be like, “that bitch over there just gave you a dirty look” and then I’ll be like (covers his mouth) Oh my god (all laugh). And just stare her down, and make them feel so comfortable that they have to leave. You’re pathetic (laughs). I win. (we all laugh). DeVonte: Do you think you have like, influenced other people to come out? Jordan: No. Julie: Do you have any friends..? Jordan: Uhm, my friend Drake that I was telling you about that goes to GVSU, he’s probably my only gay friend. Uhm, the thing is, like, have you noticed that girls hang out with girls, and guys hang out with guys. Well, I’ve always been like a girl so, I’ve always hung out with the girls, so when it comes to gay friends, it’s like I don’t really have any because I don’t really hang out with boys. And like, the, extremely flamboyant like, gay people, like I just don’t like them very much because I feel like, I feel like they’re kind of annoying, (laughs) just a little bit. And I know I’m annoying to some people, because they can’t, they don’t like seeing that, but ya know, I feel like they’re always out for drama and like, always out to see who did this, who did that, and like, they’re attention seekers like no other, and it annoys me. So, I don’t have a lot of gay friends. Julie: Is your friend Drake, uhm, did he come out before you, after you? Jordan: Before I think? Julie: Okay, so you knew him. Jordan: But, I give him props for that because he was at that school his entire life and he did it. Page 17 �Julie: Wow. Jordan: Where, I moved schools, and then did it. Which, moving schools is scary, but, the people you grew up with, having to tell them that, like after, like hiding it for so long. And he’s not the kind of gay kid that you can tell is gay. Like, he’d have to tell you. Like, and those are the kind I like. I just like real people. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: You do what you do. DeVonte: So, when you came out, how was it? Were you relieved, or like? Jordan: It kind of just happened (laughs). Julie: It’s just kind of new still? Jordan: No, it’s just a part of who I am, I mean like, you don’t go up to someone and like, I would never go up to someone and say, “Hi I’m Jordan, I’m gay”. (All agree). Jordan: Just like you wouldn’t go up to someone and say “Hi I’m Rachel, I’m straight”. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, you just don’t do it. Like, it’s just a part of who I am. Like I mean, if you want to know, I’ll tell ya. Like, it didn’t really change a lot in my life, other than the fact that I didn’t feel like I had to hide it anymore. I was able to become more myself than I ever was. And like, my friend Holly, she knew me before and after. And like, she sees me after, and she’s like, “I’m so glad, cause it’s not like you weren’t fun before, but you’re like ten times more fun now just because you let go, you let loose”. Uhm, so I’ve always been kind of like a loose canyon, just letting it go, and doing what I want to do. I don’t care what people think. Uhm, except old people. I don’t like to be around old people. (Laughter) Jordan: Like, I feel like there always lookin at me. (Laughter again). There always sittin there and watchin me, and those are the kind of people that I mind being judged by (he laughs). It’s like oh god! So, I, will never work at nursing home, or like Julie: You would never do their hair? Jordan: No! I just don’t like old people. Like, and that’s another reason why I would never wanna work in a salon. Like, old people come get their hair permed, and stuff like that. And then like, the last when I was working reception at Rivé, I got Connie’s client Wilma come in there, and she was tryin to convert me to born again Christian, and I was like, lady I’ve been through all of that (laughs), and she was like “Well you just give me a call when you go to church” and I’m all like well I’m gonna be busy the next couple of weeks. (All laugh). And she’s like, “well the Lord is, you don’t make time for the Lord he’s Page 18 �gonna come get chu”. Or something like that, and then like, like, it was just crazy and I never called her. And then like, last time I went into Rivé I brought my friend Haley lunch cause we were really tight when we worked there; she does hair there and uhm I brought her lunch, and I like call her and I’m like, fuck it’s Thursday, is Wilma comin in? (All laugh). Cause I mean, I still remember like, the, weeklys, like the people who come in and I’m like, oh crap it’s Thursday. Aww, she comes in to get her hair done on Thursday and I just had to call and make sure she wasn’t comin in cause I didn’t wanna run into her. “You never called me, the Lord shouldn’t have to wait for you”. (All laugh again). And like, it was just too much, it’s just like, I live my life the way I wanna live it. That’s another example of my, religious beliefs (laughs), so. DeVonte: Do you think your parents would like, accept the fact that you are a homosexual? Jordan: Yeah, I just don’t want to deal with it right now. Like it’s just not something that I want to do right now. Right now I’m very content keeping them out of my life, like I don’t expect them to like, like if one day I get married, I don’t want them there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, that kind of thing. It’s just weird I don’t want them there. Julie: Why though? Jordan: I don’t know, like, I shouldn’t really care because, I mean I don’t care what people think, but I believe that gayness is passed down, uhm. I believe it’s genetic. I don’t know how it started spreading so fast lately, I think it’s because everyone’s just like not scared anymore, but I feel like it’s always been there. Uhm, because my grandpa, who is dead (laughs) now, he was gay. And uhm, he grew up back when that wasn’t okay, so, he married my grandma and everything like that and they were married their whole lives cause they were very strict Catholics. Uhm, but, she used to own a store in Grosse Point, where they sold baskets, flowers, and stuff like that. I don’t know, they just did it cause they liked it they were already like multi-millionaires and like, lost it all because they were stupid. (All laugh). Jordan: It’s cause they were selfish, they gave us like 15 bucks for Christmas every year, I was like fuck you bastards. You have a $20 million dollar house and you’re giving us 15 bucks for Christmas. (Laughter). Jordan: But uhm, Julie: And when did he come out? Did you know? Jordan: He didn’t. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, my grandma caught him with a man. At Grosse Point, made him pick everything up and that’s how they ended up in Harbor Springs. Page 19 �Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Which is where my grandma still is. Julie: And they didn’t stay, they stayed together? Jordan: Yep, Catholics… crazy. Julie: Did you know him? Jordan: Yeah, oh yeah. He just died last year. Julie: Okay. Jordan: But (laughs), sorry his funeral was hilarious. (All laugh and are confused). Jordan: I know that’s like sick sounding, but, oh my god it was just funny. Like I was sittin there just holding the coffin, and like, the priest or whatever comes up and there are like little boys in white robes and he like rubs his face and sprinkles the holy water at my grandfather’s coffin, and he turns over and rubs the other little boy’s face and sprinkles more on their with his little thing and I’m just like sitting there holding my dead grandpa’s coffin, and I’m like (starts cracking up). I had soars on the inside of my mouth that day from holding my laughter in. (All laugh). Cause like, and they would change like, “bless the father, bless the mother” all together and I was like, what the hell? Then they’d be talking some jibberish and it was like, scary, it was like what the hell is going on? I’m like, I had my nails painted and everything for that one, so I’m goin up to take communion and I like took the bread, and I’m like this bread is gonna be like dry as fuck I’m gonna wait until I get to the wine to eat it. And then he like stops me and is like “No! You eat it here!” And he looked right at my nails and he was like, like, I should’ve just been like, yep that’s right! (laughs). It was just like, that thing. But my Uncle, uhm, which is my dad’s brother. He lives over in Detroit, he’s also gay. So far it’s hit every generation for the last 3, so I told my brother, you’re gettin gay kids (laughs). Ha Ha! Julie: Are you close with your Uncle? Jordan: No, no he’s, he kind of lives in his own little world. Which is what I want someday. Like, I mean they get together for thanksgiving and Christmas, and his partner comes with him. He’s got a partner, and his partner’s kind of a bitch, but he’s really funny. But uhm, like that’s just what they do. They show up for important events. And that’s what I’ll plan on doing some day. But, as far as having my family live next door and see them all the time, and have them come play with the grandkids, like that kind of stuff, like that’s not happening. That is not happening; I’m livin my own life and I don’t want you guys all over in it (laughs). Julie: Do you want to get married? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: So you see yourself getting married and having kids? Page 20 �Jordan: Yeah, I have my fantasy planned out like every teenage girl does. Julie: Would you mind sharing? (All laugh). Jordan: Uhm, I, I mean, when, when I am where I fully wanna be, uhm. Actually I had a dream the other day, and it was really scary because I ended up getting killed in it. But it was like everything I’ve ever wanted and then my husband tried to kill me and then he eventually did but. And then for some reason I, okay no I can’t get into the details of everything (All laugh again). Jordan: But uhm, not sexually (laughter), but it goes on forever there’s so many details. But uhm… uhm.. what I want someday is, like.. just like the perfect family for me. Like, I want two kids, boys cause I hate little girls. Like I mean if I could just skip like, if they could start out as a baby, and then like, skip like 4-14 with a girl, I’d take a daughter but like you can’t skip those ages and I absolutely hate them through those ages, like, I mean I didn’t even like Charlie (looks to his friend). Like I really didn’t like Charlie and the only reason I could tolerate Morgan was cause she was so dumb (everyone laughs). But uhm, yeah, so I want two sons that’s it. Uhm, I already have them named. But uhm, and then I wanna wake up in the morning, and just, get up, get my kids ready, take them to school, go do some celebrities hair, like go work out and run some errands, go pick up my kids, and then just spend the rest of the day with them. Like, cook dinner, wait for the hubby to get home, like that kind of thing. Julie: But you want like, a kind of more traditional, it sounds like you want more of a traditional, like go cook dinner for your husband, take care of the kids.. Jordan: Yeah, I mean, that’s how I feel it should be. Julie: Okay, is that how your family was or? Jordan: In a way yeah. I mean my mom and step mom have always cooked for my dad and stuff like that, but I mean I want to be able, like my mom was very neglecting. Like I don’t think she liked to be around very much, especially when I was home schooled she was never really around. Which was weird because she was supposed to be home schooling me (laughs). Uhm, like she was never around and like, I mean I feel like that’s, that’s why I was so, like fucked up for awhile. And like seriously, I, I had a drug addiction when I was like 16 that I got myself out of. Like I was snortin adderal up the nose, every day, all day, 3 times a day, never slept, never ate, and then in between adderals I was taking vicadin up the nose. I was just, totally crazy and people would see it, and like, eventually someone told me, but I don’t want my kids to ever have to do that and like, I’ve hidden my whole life from my parents. Like what they see is just, my bedroom and like, and what I go out in, which sometimes I would have to change in the car because I was not going to dress like that when I went out, and like that kind of thing so, like I mean I know, like I started wearing short shorts around my dad, which is kind of weird but I keep them at a decent length. Like up here (points to the middle of his thigh) instead of like right there (moves his hand slightly up). I have changed in my car, like after I left my house so they didn’t ask or anything, and like, say something about what I was wearing. That kind of thing. Uhm, but I have had to hide my life Page 21 �from them and I don’t want to do that with my kids. Like I want them to tell me everything if they’re going to go drop acid with their friends I want them to tell me. Like, (laughs), like I mean… and I just want that, that, nice bond. Like that’s more of my traditional views on that. DeVonte: Uhm, would you ever consider getting an operation done? Jordan: No. Julie: Why? Jordan: When I was in my mom’s stomach she got an ultrasound done. Sorry, I’m gonna open a window I’m hot. (Opens window and talks about it locking). Jordan: But uhm, I would never get that done cause I feel like I was made this way. When I was in my mom’s stomach she got an ultrasound done and I was supposed to be a girl and I came out a boy, like, Julie: Oh really? Jordan: Yeah.. that goes to tell you something. And, I feel like I mean if you’re gonna go get an operation that’s your business, but I feel like you were put on the earth the way you are for a reason, to fit someone’s puzzle. Ya know? Like I mean I feel like everyone’s a puzzle piece just waiting to fill up someone’s puzzle. Like ya know? And that’s what I’m waiting for that’s why I don’t really date. (Laughs). Cause I haven’t found the right one. Julie: Mhm-hm. DeVonte: Do you think it was more of a friendly environment in Plainwell than it was in Decatur? Jordan: Uhm…. Yes and no. I felt like in high school there were more assholes at Plainwell, but uhm, I just did my own thing. So I didn’t pay attention to them. Like, I mean I just, like I got bothered less, just because I didn’t pay attention to them, but. I mean after my brother’s class, my brother was in high school, he was a senior when I was a freshman and we were in the same school and after he graduated, like all those like assholes left, and then I was fine. So, I mean… they were, they were probably equal, like I never really got bothered that much. My dad’s a cop, everyone knew it. You don’t fuck with the cop’s kid. (Everyone laughs). DeVonte: Do you currently have a job right now? Jordan: Uhm, I don’t. I’m really workin on it. What I’m getting into is, webcaming. Uhm, I know that sounds like, bad, but like, for the money I’m gonna be making from it, it’s not that bad and uhm, basically what’s gonna happen is I’ll sit there and talk to people, and if they want to take me into private they’ll have to pay $8 a minute. Like 8 something a minute, and basically they can see what they want, but. And then they can call me anytime, uhm, they just call an 800 number and uhm, it’ll be directed towards my phone number so it’s kept completely private. Page 22 �Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And it’s 3-4 dollars a minute for every minute that they talk to me on the phone. So, uhm. Julie: Wow. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: Where did you think of this idea? Jordan: Dr. Phil (everyone laughs). Julie: And are you like, gonna start it up soon or have you been thinking about it for awhile? Jordan: Well, I just sent in my papers yesterday. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, for them to prove that I’m 18. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: So I can start doing that. Checks come in the mail every Tuesday. And, like, seriously you work whenever you want, you just go into your bedroom, turn on the webcam, and at the end of it you walk away with $300 and some bucks. I, I mean, there’s people that sit on that for 3 hours, and they make just under a grand. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Could you imagine working for 3 hours and making that much money? Julie: That’s crazy. Jordan: That’s why I’m gettin into it. I mean, I knew I was gonna end up doin something dirty. I’ve checked out stripping, but, I mean it’s just I’d rather have the privacy of my own home. And, choose who gets to come into my sanctuary (he laughs). (We all laugh). Jordan: Uhm, even though stripping is something that like sounds really fun, the thing about me is that, like, I was a die hard partier. Like I was 16, just got my car, ya know, just escaped my mom. I was die hard partier. Partying every night. Like, just, that was when I had my problem (laughs). Uhm, so like I’ve always been a partier, I’ve always been a little bit crazy. Uhm, I have one-night stands so, it’s like, I’m clearly not that conservative about those kind of things. Like, I feel like that does come a little bit with the gayness, but at the same time, not everybody’s like that. So I don’t know, I think it’s just my personality, I mean, I, I don’t think of myself any less for it. Jordan: (He laughs). You all shook your head at the same time, that was really funny. Jordan: Haha yeah that was weird. Page 23 �Krysten: How did you move up to Grand Rapids? Jordan: Uhm, I moved up here for school. Uhm, Aveda Institute is right downtown it’s where I’m going. Krysten: Oh, I’ve been there it’s nice. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: It’s so nice. Jordan: Yeah when I saw it, I fell in love with it. Uhm, come get your hair done by me. (He laughs). Jordan: Cause then, when I become famous you can be like, “he did my hair”. (We all laugh). Krysten: It’s pricey. Jordan: Yeah, it will be pricey someday; it won’t be when I’m in school. Krysten: Well, for me to go in and get it done it’s still pretty pricey. Jordan: Oh, yeah, (laughs). I mean, I’ve got a bunch of fake hair glued to my head so, yeah (laughs). My salon bill’s not very nice either. (We all laugh). DeVonte: Are there any books or movies that you feel are most connected with? Jordan: Uhm, (looks confused), no Brokeback Mountain! Just kidding. (We all laugh). Jordan: As far as movies go… I’d have to say my favorite is Easy A. (The girls agree). Julie and Krysten: That is a good movie. Jordan: She is so like.. like I feel like that sums up a little bit of who I am. Like, minus the fact that of like, like, how conservative she actually was. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I’m the kind of person who could do that. Like, I mean, I just don’t have that emotion. Like that, that, guilt factor. Ya know? I just loved her in that movie, like I felt like, that was just, wow! (Laughs). As far as books go, I don’t read. Ever (laughs again). No, scratch that. I have read a series it’s called Pen Dragon but it didn’t really relate to me at all. It was just really cool ha. Like it put Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings to shame (we all laugh again). Page 24 �DeVonte: Uhm, when you go to the restroom do you go to the male or female? Jordan: I do go to the girls, and that is strictly for comfort reasons. I am ten times more comfortable peeing in a woman’s bathroom than a men’s. Uhm, depending on my level of intoxication, is whether or not I stand up or sit down. (Everyone laughs). And, what I feel like, it’s basically what I feel like. If I go in there, and it’s a bunch of girls in there I’ll sit down so they don’t question because… ya know if you see the feet pointing the other way you’re gonna be like, what the hell? Julie: Yeah. Jordan: But uhm, yeah, so that’s basically that. Just out of comfort. Julie: Do you ever go into the men’s, or did you ever? Jordan: When I’m with my dad I’ll go into the men’s. DeVonte: And does it feel awkward going into the men’s? Jordan: Oh yeah. I see urinals and I’m like what the hell? Julie: Do people look at you differently or? Jordan: No, but when I’m with my dad I usually tone it down. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Yeah (laughs). Julie: By the way you dress, and so on. Jordan: Yep. Julie: Okay. Julie: So, what do you hope, or what do you feel like politics, and gay marriage and everything that’s going on right now. Do you ever watch the news? Do you think it interests you? Jordan: I feel like the news to me is one of the biggest wastes of time. Because me being the single person that I am, there’s nothing I can do. Like I’ve watched my whole entire life my dad, and my step mom, and everybody watch the news, and get pissed off as hell. Like, just pissed, and like, stressed out over it, but you know what? At the end of the day you can’t do anything, so why worry yourself with it. So like, I don’t watch the news. I don’t pay attention to politics. As far as gay marriage goes, uhm, I feel like, there needs to be something. I mean, maybe if you think that marriage is between a man and a woman, it’s that. Maybe you should come up with something new for the gays, I don’t know. I don’t care. It’s just when it comes down to it I want something like.. like that, says, listen this is my man, and if he leaves me I’m gettin half his shit. (All laugh and agree). Page 25 �Jordan: If you cheat on me I’m gettin it all. (Laughter again). Jordan: I also have a very unique cheating possibility if you want to hear that. Julie: Yeah, definitely. Krysten: Sure. Jordan: Okay. Uhm, when it comes to that, I feel like, like after awhile human beings are very sexual beings, considering that humans and dolphins are the only like, things that have sex for pleasure. Krysten: I’ve heard that. Jordan: Yeah, so I feel like humans are really sexual beings, and I feel like your first five years of marriage should be completely special and you should be completely loyal to your partner, uhm, but after that, if you feel the need to cheat, or like go sleep with someone else, like you just can’t get it out of your head and it’s all you think about, stuff like that. Uhm, I feel like, you should be able to do it. But, rule 1, you’re not gonna spend the night over there. You’re not gonna sleep in their bed with them. It’s gonna be sex strictly and you’re gonna come home and look me in the eyes and you’re gonna tell me exactly what happened and if you can’t do that, then it’s obviously not that important to you. Like you know.. like that’s just how I feel about it cause like I’d rather have someone, like, tell me it’s gonna happen and like, I need to do this, I need to do this to get over it, and if you can look me in the eye and do it, then obviously it was at that point, but I don’t feel, I feel like the divorce rate is so high because of that. Because people can’t realize how much of a sexual being humans are and the needs that they have. The needs, the desires, like, civilizations have fallen from peoples desires and wants. Like, I mean, just give them a little space, give them a little wiggle room (laughs). Julie: Uhm, but, so, do you, you don’t really care if there was gay marriage legalized nationwide? Jordan: Everywhere where I wanna live it’s legal (laughs). Julie: Yeah. Jordan: New York, L.A. Jordan: Like, I mean I’m good with that. If they wanna call it something else, go for it and make the little Christian people happy, but, Jordan: As you’re wearing a what would Jesus do bracelet (he laughs). (We all laugh). Jordan: Yeah, it’s no big deal I’m just messin with you. (Laughter again). Page 26 �Jordan: I’m sorry, but uhm, I mean I think that’s the biggest thing, with the gays right now. Like I mean, marriage. Like, I don’t think it’s a big deal. Like I mean, and as I said, gays are drama queens. Like, just get over it. I mean, I do think they need to fight for the right to be bound together, but, I mean call it somethin else, make it somethin else, cause, initially marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. And I do, believe that. But I mean, will I get married someday? Hell yeah. But. Julie: What advice do you have to anyone, for someone, that is coming out? If you have any? Jordan: Just do it. Do it on your own terms, do what feels right. Suck it up and just do it. Like, cause honestly it’s who you are and if you can’t live as who you are you’re not livin. Julie: Yup. Julie: Uhm, do you have any regrets about coming out, or telling people, or what their reactions or anything like that or no? Jordan: No, I’ve never had any regrets. I mean, I am who I am. And like I’ve gotten to that point where uhm, just the way I grew up, with the childhood, moving around, like all that stuff that I’ve grown into. That’s a lot. That’s a lot than what most like people, go through, as like, growing up. Uhm, like, just the way that my life has been set up, I’ve lived a lot more than most people would. So I’ve had more experience, I have that knowledge so I know that I just don’t live with regrets. Like I’m completely happy, living like this. I don’t know, I think I got kind of sidetracked in this. Julie: (Laughs). No that’s good. Jordan: Okay. Julie: Do you have any other comments that you want to say? Jordan: What’s it like to be straight? No (everyone laughs). Julie: I know now you’re going to ask us questions. (Laughter continues). Jordan: No, I’m just kidding I know what it’s like to be that. Uhm…. Julie: Have you ever been with a girl? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: And, did enjoy it or? Jordan: I mean.. Rachel: (Jordan's friend) Do you remember how you told me? Jordan: About what? Page 27 �Rachel: Like when you were with a female rather than a male, ya know like the feeling or whatever. Like that feeling you get. Jordan: Yeah, I mean it still feels good, it’s a vagina. Rachel: No, I mean remember you told me, like you said like, you know how like, when you’re with someone, and you get like, not like the feeling of like, sex, or whatever, but like that connection or whatever? How you said that you didn’t get with a girl. Jordan: No, yeah you just don’t get it. Like when I see a hot guy I’m like holy shit. Like you know when you go out with someone for the first time and you’re like really into him, and like, you get those butterflies and you feel crazy, stuff like that. You don’t get that. You don’t get that sexual build-up, the sexual tension, just being like, just, ah. Basically, you don’t get that. And that just goes to show that it’s not a choice because like I mean I’ve tried. Like, who hasn’t tried? Honestly? And, you know what, that’s probably the one thing that I regret… is hiding myself for so long. Julie: And trying to feel, were you trying to like the person that you were with or something? Jordan: Yeah, I mean like I liked them, and then like there were times when I like, I was like, I want to date this person. But the more I thought about it, is like, I mean, after about a month I’m gonna lose interest in them and not want to go any farther with this person and it’s not fair to them, so yeah. That’s another reason why I haven’t dated because after awhile I’ll just lose interest and not even want too. END OF INTERVIEW Page 28 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b0f462f9fa755005c9fdebd71401a7fd.mp3 3addb888916f0006ef1c95fe22975e35 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Serla_Jordan Title A name given to the resource Jordan Serla audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Serla, Jordan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Doescher, Julie Jones, DeVonte Velderman, Krysten Description An account of the resource Jordan Serla discusses growing up gay in a small town. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Homophobia Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/563c4b04a27394be1f977baf81163178.pdf 1075825fe6b17e1be43d5a4bd40be3f7 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Cynthia Mader Interviewers: Kailey Rosema, Stephen Pratt and Erica Immekus Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/13/2012 Runtime: 00:49:36 Biography and Description Cynthia Mader is an outstanding woman who is an advocate for the advancement of civil rights for the LGBTQ community in the West Michigan area, as well as a professor in Grand Valley State University‟s College of Education. Recently, Cynthia was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Women's Commission, March 13th, 2012. Cynthia‟s involvement for social justice led her to be the First Board of Directors within the Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated, in which she organized Grand Rapids‟ first pride celebration, and fought with local public administration offices for the passing of laws that banned sexual orientation discrimination Transcript Kailey Rosema: Okay my name is Kailey Rosema and I‟m here with Erica Immekus and Stephen Pratt. We are interviewing Cynthia Mader downtown Grand Rapids at Grand Valley‟s Pew campus in the Eberhard building. It is Tuesday, March 15, 2012 at 11:30 A.M. So Cynthia if you don‟t mind starting off maybe telling us a little bit about your family, your background, childhood, growing up life... Cynthia Mader: It was pretty ordinary, umm nothing, nothing out of the ordinary. Umm I was raised on the other side of the state. I was born in 1942, umm so I‟m nearing retirement here at Grand Valley. So as I said, I was born on the other side of the state in Bay City, Michigan. Small family, mother, father, one sister. Umm, Catholic family. I went to Catholic schools, Catholic grade school, Catholic high school. And then I went to Aquinas College here in town, I moved to Grand Rapids, which of course is a Catholic College. And then, for 23 years I taught in a Catholic high school here in town, Catholic Central and West Catholic. So umm, as far as childhood, it was I‟m sure as ordinary and, umm, there was nothing uncommon about it. My parents were married, stayed married. They were middle class, maybe a little bit more comfortable than just middle class, but certainly not wealthy. I had good friends, got along in school. I wish I could tell you some horror stories and I don‟t have a single one to Page 1 �tell you! So, I don‟t know, are there other things that you would like to know about childhood and growing up? I did all the things that kids do. You know, and in high school, student council and all those Girl Scout kinds of things. Umm, I dated, the usual. KR: When you moved to Western Michigan, was that specifically for school? CM: Yes, that‟s what brought me here, was Aquinas College. And I never moved out again, I mean I never moved back to my hometown. I did go back there a lot, but I‟ve lived in Grand Rapids ever since. I love Grand Rapids, I think it‟s just a perfect town, perfect town for me anyway. Umm, but yes, I‟ve lived here all my life, and worked here all my life in the Grand Rapids area, but that‟s what brought me here. KR: Okay, good. Umm, so can you tell us a little bit about your education? CM: My education... Well, I‟ve had the good luck of being able to go to school a lot, I like to go to school. And I‟ve been able to because I‟m single, have been single. No family, no children. I don‟t know how people do it. I really don‟t know how, especially women, I don‟t know they do it, when they‟re working and have a family and try to get advanced degrees. But at any rate, I got my undergrad degree from Aquinas in English and education, and French and social studies too. Although I‟m certified to teach those, but it would be just a travesty if I ever tried to teach French! That was my undergrad. After that, again as I said I had the time and interest, I went on and earned three Masters degrees after that. A Masters in English, a Masters in library science, and a Masters in counseling. All of which helped with a teaching certificate because you can do all of those things in schools. And then, umm, I was teaching high school at the time during all of that, and then I began my PhD and finished that in 1994 I think it was. I had already come to Grand Valley to work by that time, but right around that time I finished that degree and I haven‟t stepped foot into a classroom as a student since then. Stephen Pratt: So was all of your college classes, Undergrad and Graduate, all at Aquinas? CM: No, umm, no, the undergrad was all there. Graduate was at Michigan State and U of M. SP: So you did bump around from Grand Rapids a little bit. CM: Oh yeah, yeah. And if I weren‟t working full time I probably would have gone further afield, but its pretty hard to do that and work full time. And for some reason it never occurred to me to take off time, you know as many many people do now, just go to the school that you want to go to and get a graduate assistantship and go full time, but that never occurred to me. I was always on a commuter basis. KR: Alright, so how did you start becoming involved in the LGBTQ community? CM: Well, I was relatively old before I became involved in the community. I always knew I was gay, I mean, as early as anyone knows anything like that. And I certainly had individual relationships during my adult life. Very stable, very good relationships. But I wasn‟t involved Page 2 �in the community at all. Teaching in a Catholic school, [CM chuckles] kind of, well, militates against that. You just don‟t. So it wasn‟t until I left K-12 teaching and went into higher ed that I had began to be involved in the gay community in town, and began to realize what a huge community it is. I think most people would be surprised how many men and women there are and how many close friendships and groups and activities... and well close friendships I guess is really...and long standing relationships. So at any rate, I became involved during a time when, lets see, it would have been... hmm, the 80‟s or early 90‟s, when the gay movement, it was a movement by then. It had not been a movement, there was just people, individual people. But by then it was becoming a rights of a gay movement for civil rights. And I happened to become involved around the time, of I don‟t know if you‟re aware of the Gay March on Washington? SP, KR, & EI: Yes [All nod and answer in agreement] CM: Are you? Okay good for you. Yes, so it was right...well you tell me the year, „87 perhaps? I can‟t remember. But that was exactly the time when I became involved. I was not on the march or anything, but people came back to this area absolutely fired up, having been on that march. And decided „Hey, we can put something together in this community!‟ Something that is formalized, something that is visible, something that is political and social, but something that gives a face to the community because there had been nothing of course as I said, just individual people. And so, at that point, many people joined together, coalesced around two men who had recently moved here from San Diego and were much more involved and politically savvy [CM laughs] than we were in Grand Rapids. But they were kind of the center of this. And from that grew the, umm, Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated. I don‟t know if you‟re aware of that organization. Most organizations like that, that are small and grassroots, they just don‟t last; I think two or three years is the average life, but that is still going strong, about 20 years I think it‟s been in Grand Rapids. It serves as kind of an umbrella organization, and a political organization, a political wing to meet with politicians, to meet with city officials, with schools, and just all sorts of things- It‟s an outreach kind of organization. So that‟s when I became involved and that‟s how I became involved. I was on the first Board of Directors for the first couple years- the first couple of terms I guess for about six years or so. I have not been as involved in it, aside from being a member since that time, but it is flourishing, it‟s very very active. It met with a lot of resistance at first, umm, as you can imagine Grand Rapids in 1989 or whatever that was, 1990 was not particularly hospitable to any organization like that- let alone one that had a building, had a face, had people out interviewing with the news and things like that. So that‟s the involvement. From that point on, I became less directly involved with that, and more personally involved with friends- large large groups of friends. And probably more politically involved with women‟s issues, which is often the course I think that women in the movement take. For some reason, who knows why, it seems to happen that in these local movements, umm, they tend to be gender balanced at the beginning, but then I don‟t know whether the women kind of drop out, or the men step in [CM laughs]. I‟m not sure what it is, but they tend to be pretty male, I Page 3 �don‟t want to say dominated because that‟s kind of a negative connotation, but male-led after that. Umm, I think it‟s probably because women are maybe more interested in women‟s issues: Family care, child care, things that the YWCA would be doing, rather than the gay movement. I think that men are more tuned, boy talk about stereotypes [Subtle laughter from everyone], men are more tuned to political edge. And certainly women want rights too, I‟m not in any way denying that. But I think I‟m a little far off topic too [Everyone laughs]. So that‟s how I got involved. KR: Okay, when you were, umm you said you were the First Chair of Directors. What kind of stuff did you do for the... CM: For the network? KR: Yeah. CM: Oh yeah, First Board of Directors. Oh my Lord, well first of all just to get an outfit like that up and running is just an enormous volunteer task. We worked night and day, night and day to, you know, I mean it‟s just stuff like bylaws, mission statements, vision statements- All of which is kind of peripheral, but the first main activity was the pride celebration. Now it‟s an annual celebration in June downtown. I think now it‟s around the Ford Museum, I think, although it might be elsewhere. I haven‟t gone in a while. But to have a pride celebration in Grand Rapids, a gay pride celebration in Grand Rapids at that time, Oh my Lord, umm gay people were being shot at ya know, for organizing and being visible. That of course didn‟t happen, it was down at the Calder. Music, crafts, food, it was truly a celebration. And people kind of, [CM pauses], it was a real risk. You thought you were taking a risk to go down there. And it turned out to be very calm, entertaining. There were a lot of protesters around, but they didn‟t bother the group too much. It was, [CM pauses], It‟s almost like a test of whether those fears were accurate or not. And they were accurate, people were getting killed elsewhere, but I think in the gay community a lot of people didn‟t want to be visible because they were afraid of being discriminated against, losing their job, losing their family, whatever. So it kind of became an inner test of “Is anything bad really going to happen?”. And for the most part, no! For the most part it was a nice news story. And it has continued on ever since, that particular celebration. That was the first visible event that the network decided to do. Beyond that, oh gosh, we did a lot of organizing around a city ordinance with sexual orientation as a protected class. And that took several years with a lot of debate in the newspapers everywhere. A lot of debate, a lot of talking to city officials, umm, it just went on and on and on. And finally the city commission did indeed put in the sexual orientation ordinance that says it‟s illegal in Grand Rapids to discriminate in housing and employment, so that was a huge step. Beyond that it was ongoing activities. Umm, service projects, speaker groups, education, you name it, the network was there, and still is. Page 4 �SP: Was there any point where there was just a large amount of protesters or a large push back towards the gay community? CM: Over the ordinance there was. Yes a lot of businesses got together sending out, well you could call it hate literature if you wanted to, so there was that. But by the time the network began, the worst had happened in Grand Rapids. Again, it‟s hard to say the worst had happened because it was such an invisible group. Prior to that nobody came out, it was just, I mean you simply didn‟t. There were a few gay bars, and I, I was just kind of at the edge of that, in the sense of I was too young to have been in that particular era, but I certainly know many people who talk about raids on the gay bars, and fear and arrests and things like that. As I say I was a little too young and just missed that period. By the time I got involved, the sixties had happened, the black civil rights movement was well underway, the women‟s movement was well underway, so there was a little bit more awareness. So I can‟t say that there was ever violence by any means, there was a lot of hatred though, at the visibility. And of course, ya know, West Michigan is a very nice area, and the feeling in West Michigan has always been: “I don‟t care what you do, I just don‟t want to see it, I don‟t want to see it”. Well, that‟s not the best message to send a human being [CM chuckles]. So anyway... SP: What did, uhh, what did your family and friends think and what did, uhh.. were you still Catholic at this point? CM: ..mhmm.. Still am, uh huh. In kind of a cultural sense… SP: So what kind of feedback did you get back from… CM: ... None from my family. I never spoke about it to them…[SP says an understanding “no”] never spoke it about it to them… Um, I lived 150 miles away so it was easy not to talk about it. Um, they would visit here, and, you know, for a week and a half you can… you can live any way you want and not have your friends around or anything like that. Um, my friends by then… friends were friends… there was… [CM stutters while thinking of what to say] I‟ve never had a bad experience. I really have to say that. And I wish I could give you something juicy for your, for your tape here [group laughter] but I‟ve personally never had a bad experience. Maybe I‟ve protected myself, I don‟t know, maybe I‟ve isolated myself and not put myself out there, I don‟t think that‟s the case though. I think I‟ve had extraordinarily good friends and extraordinarily um, oh, well informed friends. So for me, that hasn‟t been much of an issue, however, there‟s something, I…I… I can‟t quite explain it and you‟re young enough so you might not get this but there‟s something just weird about saying I am gay, because all it talks about is who you fall in love with, that‟s all it talks about. And yet it becomes for some people, such an identifying trait and, you know that, “that‟s my gay friend” [CM laughs] um, rather than that‟s my friend. So, its, its just, it was a weird feeling all of that time and still is to a certain extent. I, um, I happen to teach grad classes that have a lot to do with social justice issues just like your U.S. diversity. And when we get to um, sexuality, I articulate the fact that I‟m a lesbian. [CM chuckles] It‟s kind of interesting, over the years, because I‟ve taught the class a long time, over the years, the Page 5 �reaction is different. It‟s much calmer, there‟s not, “Oh my God!”, you know, which it used to be. Um, people are much less, you know on the discussion board, much less vitriolic and I uh… gay people… [CM mocks former anti-gays views on keeping their sexuality out of the public‟s eye] “I don‟t care what they do, just keep it out of my face.” There‟s much, much less of that. So, um, the times have changed, really, times have moved forward. It‟s not there yet by any means, I don‟t know if it ever will be, but, but it‟s improving. KR: Um, when you were growing up, was there anything that further influenced you or your involvement or your identity like people, articles, news? CM: It was so oblivious. I mean I knew I wasn‟t experiencing the same things my friends were. I knew I wasn‟t falling in love with that boy in geometry [CM chuckles]. But, that was about as close as I came to, to realizing anything. I don‟t think it was until, I don‟t know, maybe late college, early… excuse me, late high school, early college, that I even put a name to what that difference was. All I knew was that, I knew enough not to talk about it. I guess I knew something, didn‟t I? I knew enough not to talk about it. Um, but mostly I just knew that I was not experiencing the same feelings that they were experiencing and talking about. And so, as far as influences, that too is hard to say. Um, there was nothing… the subject was never spoken of. Neither plus nor minus in my hometown which was a small hometown, catholic school, um, so it wasn‟t spoken about… I knew, I knew something was wrong, I thought I‟d outgrow it [CM chuckles]. Uh, so I can‟t name in influence at all. I can name good influences on, on, on the way that I grew to think about things. And the fact that I‟ve never really experienced that so called catholic guilt. I think my catholic upbringing was a little bit different then many people. It was quite enlightened, it was quite forward thinking, and so I… I kind of experienced social discomfort. Worrying about what people would think, but I never experienced that guilt, that religious guilt. So… and then beyond that, college… of course, after… by that time you know, you start to read, you start to talk, you start to inform yourself, and so yeah, those were influences on me. But, beyond that, I don‟t think… I just read widely and have followed the movement for, even before it was a movement and evolved with it. And, um… that‟s, that‟s it as far as influences. My own reading has been the biggest influence… and then um… But not growing up, there, I can‟t say one way or another at all. [CM shakes her head in disbelief of having any influences] KR: When you were working in the network, was there anyone, or anything, or an event that empowered you to become more involved or take more actions? CM: I think it was the whole series of events of just being out there. Because what it does is it tells you, nothing‟s going to happen. [Cynthia chuckles due to her ironic realization]. And not only does nothing happen, it, I think the biggest thing that happens internally. Because to go through, you know I look back to when I was teaching high school 23 years, 23 years of not being, of not identifying, not articulating who I really was, not talking about any of my outside work friends or anything like that; I think it sends a terrible message to yourself that there‟s Page 6 �something about you that can‟t be spoken about, that can see the light of day. So my involvement with the network and with that growing community of friends [Stephen Pratt coughs] allowed me to, to just abandon that way of life, I never, never ever repeat that again. KR: Um, let‟s see. Was there um, before you became involved you said there wasn‟t much, um, going on for civil rights… [in the LGBTQ community] CM: Not in the LGBT community, right, yeah. Definitely the, uh, the black community and I was very involved with that. And if you want an influence, probably that was, the whole civil rights, black civil rights movement influenced me deeply and, and made me realize, um, the political possibilities, um, how, how you could make change, how things have happened, how, how sometimes power is so subtle that people don‟t even realize that they‟re being subordinated, all of those things. The civil rights movement had a huge influence on me. The women‟s movement after that had a big influence on me also. In many ways, in many ways they‟re parallel, in many ways they‟re not, but in many ways they‟re parallel. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] SP: So between the two movements, there was, you had, did you have a lot of involvement in both at the time? CM: Yes I did, yes I did. It gave me a way of thinking. So that, but even then, you know, I thought well, but, but being gay is different; that‟s not, that‟s not civil, that‟s not African American, that‟s not women‟s movement, that‟s something different that‟s off to the side, don‟t, there‟s nothing to be involved there because that‟s quiet, silent, invisible. But it began to give me a way of thinking, mhmm, it allowed me then to pursue that. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] KR: How are you involved in the African American communities, like you were saying? CM: Yeah, well, bear in mind that that didn‟t really flourish until, well, it flourished, but it didn‟t come to the general public‟s attention until in the late fifties and sixties. At that time I was in college and I was at Aquinas [college] and Aquinas [college] is a very, very, um, good institution when it comes to social justice issues. So, uh, we marched, we sang, we licked envelopes, we did all sorts of things in that, uh, in that period of time. And then, after that I was teaching high school and so there were involvements there also, with, you know, African American student groups and, and, oh gosh, there were workshops, there was, oh it was the Vietnam war. I mean you talk about a time that was exciting, and, and just “wow” something going on all the time regarding civil rights. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] KR: Um, going back to your work in the LGBTQ community, [CM says “mhmm”] um, did you ever do any work outside of Grand Rapids at all? CM: No. Um, I don‟t know if you‟d like to get into this, but Grand Valley, would you like to talk about work at Grand Valley? Page 7 �KR: Yeah. SP: Of course. CM: Okay, um [CM clears her throat], well, hmm hmm. When I came to Grand Valley… I knew a lot of people here already because I lived in the area so I already had a lot of gay and lesbian friends here at Grand Valley already. But, again, a very invisible community, very invisible. And, and now, things like domestic partner benefits are a given. Things like um, protection, sexual orientation, and the affirmative action and equal protection clause, absolutely a given. But at that time, I don‟t think anyone breathed the word, um, it was just circles of friends, obviously. But as far as the university, there was nothing. And you may be familiar with some of the climate studies that have been done here at Grand Valley. I don‟t know that within your time here but about every, I don‟t know, every five to ten years, Grand Valley has done a, a so called climate study. Mostly to kind of gauge the temperature on women‟s issues and, uh, race issues and things like that. Well the first one was done shortly after I was here. And through that study, it became obvious that there was a fair population of, of gay and lesbian people, staff and faculty, who were not particularly, who didn‟t really feel like the, the… [CM chuckles] Grand Valley family, that, that we all talk about, you know, we really kind of felt second class. Because there were no benefits, none of that for families and things like that. So, as many of these things happen, it happened with a few people. I and… I‟m not going to name names because, just because, um, I don‟t know if they‟re interested in being online with this. But I and about four other women started to approach the president, uh, President Lubbers at that time. And bless his heart, President Lubbers is a good man but I think he was… pardon me President Lubbers if you listen to this [EI chuckles] but I think he was a little bit clueless uh, that there were even people on his campus… [CM laughs] And, and I think he wanted to do the right thing but of course, politically, it would be very, very difficult for him to back any kind of gay/ lesbian stuff in this town. Not with the donors that donated to Grand Valley which were very, very conservative group. And so, he encouraged us, but, I can‟t say it was out-front. We then began to expand into a more formal organization which has now become the Faculty Staff Association of Gay and Lesbian faculty and staff and we started to get together and talk about can we do as a group, not anymore as individuals, but what can we do as a group. One of the things we wanted, because every other institution had it, is domestic partner benefits. I don‟t know if you‟re aware, aware of what domestic partner benefits are just as in, um, um, straight couples. The spouse or partner, spouse, um, can get health benefits and all the other health benefits that the university affords. Um, we of course couldn‟t. And so we really began lobbying for that. We started talking to board members, we started talking to the various organizations on campus; the faculty senate, the AP association, um, women‟s commission. Every possible, conceivable organization and got their backing. And finally, after about two years of talking and saying “here we are, we‟re decent people, ya know, we‟re okay” uh, and there are about fifty of us, finally President Lubbers decided he that would back it, he would back the request for domestic partner benefits. The only thing is he wanted it to be kept fairly quiet so that the newspapers didn‟t jump on it before it was done and just ruin the whole thing. So he was, um, all set to put it for a word to the Page 8 �board of trustees and somewhere in that week in between, the newspaper did get a hold of it and there was a front page story saying Grand Valley is going to start to give domestic partner benefits. And I guess, from what I understand, he was inundated by donors. Saying, “uh uhh, [CM laughs in disbelief] our money is out of here, if you, if you do that, we will not allow that. If you go ahead and do domestic partner benefits, we‟re out of here, you will get no more money from us”. And they were big names, and you can imagine who some of those big names were. Many of our buildings are named after them. And he backed down, and it was a very difficult time, I‟m sure for him, because he had to back down publicly. After being quoted in the Grand Rapids Press as saying it was the right thing to do, six days later, he had to be quoted in the Grand Rapids Press as saying, well, perhaps I was hasty. And it was a very sad time, I‟m sure for him, and it certainly was for us. Then, there was a new president, and this goes on forever… There was a new president, new change in administration and they were no more willing, no more. That was President Murray‟s administration. He was only here for two years. He was very in tuned with the business community and just did not see it as a very wise thing to do. So… Um, we kept talking and talking and talking and finally about five years ago, the board, with very little fan fair instituted domestic benefits for LGBT in faculty and staff. And that was a huge victory. [It] sounds like such a little thing but we were; I think Grand Valley was the last in the state to do it. It might‟ve been second from last in the higher education institution. So that‟s one example here at Grand Valley. And things have just done a complete turnaround! I‟m not saying that it‟s perfect here for, um, especially here for students, it might be tough. But for faculty and staff, it‟s light years different from what it used to be. There‟s no, there‟s no negative feelings, there‟s no need to be invisible, there just isn‟t. It‟s a totally different environment. Some people may choose to for whatever reason, but totally different environment with a very active association. Uh, there‟s the LGBT center; that in itself took, uh, five years I think to convince them to get. Uh, yeah, they agreed to it in principle… [CM mocks the former Grand Valley politics] “yes yes yes yes, it‟s needed in principle…” But for the… We joke, for the first two or three years, the center, the center bear in mind, was a bookshelf [CM laughs in disbelief] over in, over in Kirkoff, or over in student services, I can‟t remember. And then, as you probably know, Professor Milt Ford really took it in hand and became the director; he was appointed director and then it became a center. Colette Beighley is the director now… It‟s a wonderful, wonderful resource. Sometimes I look at their programming; the movies and the speakers they‟re bringing in and I think, my gosh, ya know, it‟s like U of M, we‟re big time! Really fascinating programming and kind of, um, kind of, some of it‟s on the edge, ya know, they do a wonderful job. KR: Are you involved with them at all right now, currently? CM: Uhm, oh I certainly uh support. I am a member. I uhm, Being here in uhm, Grand Rapids makes it a little tough to be as involved on campus as I used to be and as I wanted to be. I, we used to be on campus, and you know you were a short walk away from everybody, it‟s a little bit different here now but, so no I am not as involved no. But I am certainly, not as directly involved, but very involved supportively. Mhmm. Page 9 �KR: Awesome, uhm, do you know what kind of projects they are currently working on at all or... CM: No, I think it‟s mostly to improve to, to just do more of the same... oh by the way are you familiar with the film, the LGBT history of West Michigan? SP: Ya, that‟s what we watched in class CM: Oh you did watch that SP: Actually we watched… [All talking at once] CM: Okay..I was, I don‟t know if you recognize.. people come up to me on the street and they say “those glasses, where have I met you before?” and we finally realized it was in that documentary! I‟m serious it has happened more than once! Which shows you how often I get glasses, get new glasses. [laughs] But yes, yeah that uhm.. but oh, what a wonderful documentary that was and the center was part of that. SP: I know that that video kinda touched on uhm, a lot of, a lot of people in the gay community that were involved with… CM: Oh, yes! SP: AIDS and STDS and… CM: Oh, yes! SP: Things of that sort, what kind of impact did that have on the Grand Rapids community? And especially personally? CM: Well, I certainly lost of gay male friends. A LOT. I can‟t tell you how many, [sighs] uhm memorial services and funerals that I might speak at or attend. A lot.. Uhm.. This might sound odd because I‟m on the one hand, AIDS was oh, in some ways it convinced the bigoted community that, this was God‟s punishment on gay people. That there you would see bumper stickers uhh, “AIDS IS GOD‟S PUNISHMENT” you‟d see bumper stickers saying that! [Explained in astonished voice] So anyway, on the one hand it had that just devastating affect politically in the community on the other hand I don‟t want in any way to at all call it a blessing but it gave a human face [pauses] to the gay community. Once people started realizing, oh my gosh. The guy I used to work with, just died of AIDS. Oh my god, I loved him. [mocking demeanor of such surprised individuals] And that of course happened, over and over and over again. I think people began to realize its not some fringe group, these are people that are integrated in my life, these are people I know. So, I would never say AIDS was a blessing on the gay community but it sure had some good results, I think. Mhmm. Uhm, and and its another group here in town as you have said, in the documentary, that the AIDS resource center was mmm, the work that they did at that time, that nobody else would, nobody would even visit those Page 10 �men. Who were sick and dying in their homes, uhm, AIDS resource center was just a magnificent work. KR: Were you involved with the AIDS resource center? CM: No, I‟m sorry to say that I wasn‟t, no. I mean as part of the network we have supported all of that, publicized all of it. But, no as far as directly working with it I didn‟t. KR: Uhm, how do you think the movie or documentary impacted people, [CM placed coffee cup on desk] not only at Grand Valley, but within our community. CM: Well you know, I, I would almost ask you that question. When I first saw it I was at the premiere showing of it, here on campus. It was over at Lucemore, it was just this fall. And it was I don‟t know if you have been told this but there was 700 people. It was uh, uh not a sellout, it was free had nothing to sell but it was an overflow audience, 200 had to watch it from another room or something like that. It was of course beautifully received there because a lot of the people who were there are knowing that it was going to be shown for the first time were people who had been involved historically for all of those years. I happened that night, to be sitting next to a student I had taught in high school. Uhm, she was a person who has been quite active in the Grand Rap… She was a straight woman, uhm but very active in the Grand Rapids community within theatre and things like that. Well I happened to be sitting next to her I mean we had [stammers] knew I mean we had seen each other through the years [breath] uh and she had probably knew that uh that I was gay, uh but her reaction was more interesting to me than the reaction of all the other people, they loved it. But after, she said I had no idea to think that when you would come in and teach us Shakespeare, [CM chuckles] that that night you were out there doing all these political things and meeting with the mayor and signing city ordinances and things like that. She said she had no idea that any of that was going on at that time, she just found that fascinating. [breathe] so uh, the time that I saw it it was very well received, I haven‟t I have shown portions in my class uh, oh the portion I show is the Jerry Crane portion. The teacher, the teacher in Byron Center that was fired and who subsequently died, I showed that and the minister who was talking uh, I knew Jerry Crane, not well, but I knew him a little bit, and his partner Randy. Uhm, so. What was the reaction when you saw it in class? KR: Uhm, I enjoyed it personally. I just thought that it was cool that people in the community at Grand Valley were spreading awareness and… CM: yeah, yeah. I was just delighted that Grand Valley had a part in it. And that‟s, that‟s the LGBT center, that‟s Collete Bagley, Bigley. Who is responsible for getting this out there, all the time. She‟s really, she‟s a dynamicist really. SP: It was definitely an eye opener, that‟s for sure. CM: Ah SP: I‟m sure it was to a lot of people Page 11 �CM: Really!? SP: Especially in our class CM: Huh..In the sense that?... SP: In the sense that, I was just unaware and that I had no idea CM: Uh huh, of all that had been going on SP: Right, yeah especially how far it had gone back into the history of Grand Rapids… CM: Oh, yeah SP: .. and community CM: and..and of course the people, that you may not recall, but the very first person talking, uh, she was just sitting alone in her room, and she had shorts on, and I can‟t remember…she was talking about the gay bar scene for women, uhm, very good friend of mine, and she had been involved during that period. Pre-dating me, she she‟s the same age as me, but as I say I kind of got involved in the community later. I wish that somebody could do a documentary on that scene, that prehistory of Grand Rapids where everybody was closeted. Uhm, and the only place that you could meet, was in the, in gay bars, and homes of course. Jeff Smith the person who did the documentary says he is thinking of doing that, probably would need to do it fairly soon because that that‟s an older population, older even than even I am, or older than even she is you know. For the most part, those women would now be in their 80s maybe, most of them, late 70s and 80s.. [pause] so, well I‟m glad that you like the documentary. KR: Mhmm.. uhm, lets see. How do you think that, like throughout the years of being an activist, uhm.. how do you think your views, did they change at all or… CM: No, I think they just became more uhm deep rooted, deep seeded, yeah. And in class when we talk about it, students often ask me if I would change, if I could. Uhm, uhh [breathes out in awe], No the answer is absolutely not. I said uh well ya know, it would be a whole lot easier for you if you did, or it would have been a lot. I think it had, I think it has given me, again I don‟t want to say that it‟s a blessing but in a way it is, I think it‟s given me kind of uh, uh a double vision. Uh, when I was growing up and younger people would say things about African Americans they would say things about, in my home town, Mexicans, they would say things about uh, single mothers, illegitimate children [laughs] and they would say things about gay people. And I, I can remember thinking, hmmm I know that‟s not true what they are saying, I know that‟s not true about me, and I know that‟s not true about what they are saying about my friends, maybe it‟s not true what they are saying about black people, or Mexican people or illegitimate children, which is what they were called, or single mothers uhm. Or welfare, maybe its not true about them either. So it has kind of given me uh, uhm like a second lense almost, to Page 12 �look through. So, no. My my answer feelings haven‟t changed, or my thoughts, they‟ve just grown more convinced. SP: Whenever students would ask you if you could change would you, did you ever, has there ever been like uh, a jealousy of not having a family like a like the normal [sarcasm], the American family CM: The American dream? [Chuckles] SP: Yeah, the American dream type of deal CM: [laughs] it really has never bothered me, I think it might some people, although with things developing as they are now that‟s gonna be possible, it already is many, many people are already living lives made it possible. But no, it‟s never been uh, a regret of mine or anything. Uh, uh. Sometimes, as I get older I wonder, hmmm who‟s gonna take care of me when I‟m in the hollowed home [sarcasm and laughs] things will work out. KR: Uhm, let‟s see. [pause] Is there uhm EI: I know you talked about how you said that you can like see changes occurring, uhm what within the community can you like truly like see a difference in like in especially like within Grand Valley if you have seen anything CM: Oh, just the openness EI: Just the openness? CM: Oh my Lord Yes. [With enthusiasm] Yeah. Just the openness. Uh, there is no other way to say it. It‟s, uh a non-issue now. And, and, and its not that its not supported I mean it it‟s an issue at the LGBT center and its an issue whenever there is harassment and stuff like that, its… it it its [stammers] just like its different era we‟re breathing. In uh, in society in general, I think that to me the biggest difference, I never [emphasized] would have in million years dream that we would talk about gay marriage. Ever! [laughs] uhm, I don‟t it will happen, it will certainly happen in our lifetimes, but ah, who would ever have thought that when you consider 25, 30 years ago, and even today some people are afraid to self-identify and now we are talking about the possibility of gay marriage, woah! Its, its remarkable and when you get discouraged, it‟s helpful to look back at at things. Doesn‟t mean there‟s any less resentment and hate out there, because there is a lot of it, but it‟ll change. Mhmm. KR: Where do you see uhm, the civil rights of the LGBTQ community going in the future. Like what topics may be.. CM: I think gay marriage is the ultimate KR: Mhmm Page 13 �CM: Mhmm, [breathes] in fact [laughs] those of us who came up through the harder times, ya know when you come up through hard times you kind of develop a sense of comradeship and we‟re all in this together against the world some, of us have said oh, when we‟re like everybody else [chuckles] maybe we‟re gonna miss that, that comradeship but ya know for African Americans it was known as black pride at that time uhm, gay pride, maybe we‟re going to miss kind of fighting against the world. Just us against them. But if so, it‟s worth it for civil rights. I mean it it it it [stammers] if we did miss that, that‟s a small thing to miss, yeah.. it‟s a good trade off to have civil rights, SP: So I know that you said that it throughout, that you‟ve seen a change throughout the straight community where they have become more accepting… CM: Mhmmm SP: ...is that, what is your reaction to the west Michigan lifestyle, if you will, that that community has become more accepting of the gay community CM: [stutters] change in them or change in? SP: A change in them, a change in... CM: In them? SP: ...how do you think, how do you feel that they, that you‟ve gotten the western Michigan people to become more accepting CM: Uhm, it was never overt hatred before, so its hard ya know its hard to say SP: Mhmm CM: Now that there is, because it was never overt before all I can say is, it it theres not the tension. Uhm, nope. Uh, you you might think twice before you self-identify, or or or are open, you might think twice, but..but by the time you think the third time you think, who cares. [laughs] they‟ll, ya know like what are they gonna do. Now that‟s not everybody. There are a lot of people who have a whole lot at stake and who, simply can‟t, I mean I‟m not in a perfect position for heaven‟s sakes, I‟m tenured faculty, you can‟t get much more safe than that. I really mean that I‟ve never had to worry about employment. Employment is a huge issue, uh in some cases uh, custody battle. Huge issue with some parents worry „I have to give up my children‟ if I‟m open. So, mhmm. KR: Uhm. So, do you have anything else you would like to share with us, any of your stories or…? CM: [laughs] Uhm, [pause] I was saying to my my partner we‟ve been together about 23 years now. She says „what are you going to say this morning, when they interview? [laughs] You‟re not going to say anything you‟re not supposed to are you, what are you gonna talk about?‟ uhm, Page 14 �actually we‟ve covered a whole lot of ground. Uhm. Nothing comes to my mind, although I am more than happy to share anything else that you can think of. KR: Uhm, do you guys have any more questions? SP: I‟m out of questions. CM: out of questions? KR: Alrighty, well uhm thank you so much. CM: Absolutely! KR: This concludes the oral history. CM: Absolutely! KR: Yep, Thank you, for your time and also thanks to Grand Valley for putting on this program. CM: Yes. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely that also. Should I be…should I sign this as far as a release form… END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b16f9b03fcbc64efb7da5844ef188e4c.mp3 bfe1209a2739b884102ec073862bb5dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Mader_Cynthia Title A name given to the resource Cynthia Mader audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mader, Cynthia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rosema, Kailey Pratt, Stephen Immekus, Erica Description An account of the resource Cynthia Mader is an outstanding woman who is an advocate for the advancement of civil rights for the LGBTQ community in the West Michigan area, as well as a professor in Grand Valley State University's College of Education. Recently, Cynthia was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Women's Commission, March 13th, 2012. Cynthia's involvement for social justice led her to be the First Board of Directors within the Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated, in which she organized Grand Rapids' first pride celebration, and fought with local public administration offices for the passing of laws that banned sexual orientation discrimination Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Homophobia Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3c505f6863f004afd609f583bd32caa1.pdf 5bb9124d21c881e7eacf778241323098 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jacqueline Decker Interviewer(s): Emma Jack Supervising Faculty: Danielle Lake Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: October 26, 2011 Runtime: 01:08:05 Biography and Description Born March, 3rd 1959 to parents Richard and Eve Holland. Youngest of three children with brothers Gary and Terry. Grew up in Grand Rapids, graduating from Crestwood high school. She then continued her education at Central Michigan University with a major in English and a minor in psychology. Ran cross country and track and field on the varsity teams. Met her husband (now of 30 years), Steven Decker in the dorms on campus in her freshman year, his sophomore year. Was married at age 22 and moved to Fremont, Michigan following her husband’s job at Gerber, while being a sports journalist for the Grand Rapids press. After several years she felt a calling to return to school and become a teacher. On July 18th, 1989, her first [adopted] child Zachary Michael was born. She and her family then moved to Rockford to start her new job as a teacher. On July 22, 1991, her second [adopted] child Andrea Lin was born. On August 16th, 1992 her last [biological] child Samantha Louise was born. She has been an English teacher at Rockford High School for 20+ years. She has also provided a home for several pugs over the years, those now being Molly (8 years old) and Crissy (11 years old). Transcript JACK: Hi, my name is Emma Jack and I’m here today with: Brooke Davis, Brittany Renninger, Kevin, Samantha Decker; and we are going to be speaking with Jackie Dekker today at GVSU. We are here today to talk about your experiences with education in west Michigan. DECKER: How are you today? JACK: I’m great, how are you? DECKER: I’m great, thanks JACK: So tell us a little bit about yourself and your background. Page 1 �DECKER: My name is Jackie Decker I was born in Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids on 3/2/59. My parents were college sweethearts form Comstock park, I have two brothers one 9 years older, one 5 years older, from Comstock park and Byron center respectively. JACK: What was it like to grow up in west Michigan? DECKER: It was a typical 60’s lifestyle. Two parent homes and my elementary was just a neighborhood school until 4th grade and then a bunch of kids were bused in. 456 grade were an integrated school. Middle school was typical only two families that weren’t Caucasian. One family was black, and one family was Asian. I went to Creston high school, which was pretty much considered an inner city high school, which was 2/3 of the neighborhood. JACK:x What made you decide to stay in west Michigan? DECKER: I didn’t think I would because Grand Rapids was a dying town when growing up, and I wanted to move as far away as possible. But once your from west Michigan its hard to get away. I currently live in Rockford with surprisingly a lot of my classmates from Creston High school. I believe a lot of people like west Michigan not only for the lakes, which are great. It has changed a lot since the 50’s 60’s lifestyles but the same family values that I grew to appreciate are still intertwined in society. JACK:x How would you describe your own identity? If you were to describe yourself to someone else how would you describe yourself? DECKER: I grew up congregational, I now go to a Methodist church, but I could probably go to any Christian church and feel good about myself while doing so. I have strong family values, I like it when people get married and have children and family life. I wouldn’t discriminate against people who don’t live that way but I still have some of those same strong family values. Very strong work ethic put forth the very best effort I can. Its still surprising that some people can get away with what they can by doing so little work. JACK: How would you describe your identity in the school system? DECKER: Probably in the same way. I usually don’t leave the school until about 4:30 compared to some others who take off right after class, etc. They know that I participate in students’ athletic events, speaking at special events (fellowship Christian athletes). I have the gay/straight association in my classes. Most kids would say that I’m a very challenging teacher because I make them work hard but at the same time they would consider it a safe haven. JACK: What do you teach? DECKER: I teach honors English 10 and regular English 11. JACK: Can you explain a little more about the fellowship Christian athletes? DECKER: It’s not always athletes; we have a huge contingent of students in the school who really go to a Baptist church. A huge mega Baptist church, and a lot of them start and have gotten involved in that. They get together pray. We get together talk and ask how I got into teaching, and I felt led to go into Page 2 �teaching. They meet on wed and I have two groups of kids that meet in my room on Mondays. On Fridays about 20 kids come in and sing praise songs. JACK: So you really have open doors to any organization. DECKER: Absolutely. JACK: Would there be any kind of organization you’d keep your door closed to? DECKER: The anime club, because I don’t know how to draw hahaha just kidding JACK: Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adult hood where you felt you were treated differently because of your profession or your gender? DECKER: I would say even though there are more female teachers in our school system at Rockford it is a male dominated school system. The principal at my building is a female, and most buildings have female in some capacity in a leader figure. JACK: How would you describe the differences between men and women in the school system? DECKER: Men get away with so much more than women. If I swore at children or made a racist joke I would get in a lot more trouble than a guy would get in trouble for. JACK: Did your school system have a male superintendent or a higher up male personnel? DECKER: We never had a female in any of those higher positions, we have a superintendent and two assistant superintendents, both male. People are almost fearful to speak out a lot with these issues. JACK: So its something that has been noticed in your community? DECKER: Our school board is eclectic. But any time someone runs for the school board they all say they’re going to make changes, but they just ultimately do what the superintendents want them to do. JACK: Do you feel like that inhibits you from doing the things you want to do in your classroom? DECKER: It doesn’t inhibit me from doing things within my classroom for the most part. I’m not a buddybuddy with the principal. Him and the other teachers know what I stand for and they know I’m doing a good job so they leave me alone. I’m in a hallway with only one other teacher. JACK: I know your in a system where all the other English teachers are all male, do you feel like that inhibits you from doing the things that you wish you could do, do you feel intimidated? DECKER: No not really. They’re big sci-fi fans so they want to read all these sci-fi books, but I’m not afraid of them at all. This past year some of them honored me for teaching and said I really deserved it. In there own way they have there own little boys club too. JACK: But they respect you? DECKER: Absolutely, I don’t have that at all from any of the men in our department. Page 3 �JACK: Is it true that you did not start your career in education? DECKER: Nope I started my career as a sports reporter for the Grand Rapids press covering high school sports. JACK: What do you think led you to become a teacher from that? DECKER: I just got a feeling that god wanted me to be working with high school students in a different way. When I was in high school I didn’t like the other students because I had brothers that were much older and parents who were much older. I thought they were kind of stupid and did dumb things. I kind of grew up old. I felt that there was need there and this will be my 22nd year. JACK: Were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the treatment of diverse individuals in society? DECKER: I had an uncle who he really had a negative view of people that were diverse. He said a derogatory statement at the table, and I ended up standing up and leaving because I was really mad. He had a very negative view of blacks. I had a great 5th and 6th grade teacher, he really made an impact on me on how these people are just different than I am with really no difference. About 5 years after i moved onto high school he became a defense attorney in grand rapids and defended the people who couldn’t get anyone else to defend them, he really changed the way I look at people. JACK: Have you kept in contact with him? DECKER: I used to seem him at road races (we were both runners.) I haven’t seen him in a long while, but every now and then there’ll be case where nobody wants it and he’ll swoop in and take it on. He is a champion for the underdogs and different races. He really changed my life. JACK: Would you say he’s a big impact on how you treat students today? DECKER: I would say so. Just the way he looked at people, I look at people differently because of that. My parents had prejudices, but they didn’t have mean prejudices, they just had prejudices born on ignorance and I wouldn’t say that they were like my uncle. But they were prejudice. One young man asked me out on a date that happened to be black, and I said it wasn’t a very good idea because of the fact that neither of our parents were going to think that it was a good idea. But I would say that Mr. Dorian? Changed my view of things. JACK: Is it difficult for you now to come into a society where everything is so mixed and you have to be accepting? DECKER: No. Teaching has been a great place for me to be. I see all different types of students that really open my eyes to how diverse people can be. I have grown to be accepting of these students, because they’re great kids. I have a daughter (not Sam) that came home a month or so ago with a pierced eyebrow and now kids are piercing their ears, and various other facial parts. We are adoptive parents. Our son was adopted when he was 2 days old from Tacoma Washington. He’s Caucasian. Our daughter Andrea’s birth mom is 100% Vietnamese, and she was a student at Calvin college. She gave birth to Page 4 �Andrea and now she is a part of our family. My mom lost a brother, he was in a control tower on a naval vessel, and a kamikaze hit the control tower so she had a total distrust of people who were Asian. In 9th grade my dad had surgery and his doctor who saved his life was Asian. I think that was all healing and when our daughter Andrea was born we asked “are you going to be able to love an Asian child?” and she said this may be really good for me. Unfortunately she only lived to when Andrea was 2 and Sam was 1. She didn’t get a chance to really meet them. I’m very accepting to everyone. I’ll admit that some people who make decision like gauging out their ears I think to myself “woa, can you sew that back together?” But overall I have to be very accepting with the position that I’m in. (starting at minute 14)-----and Sam was one so…she didn’t get a chance but I am very accepting of—but, I ya know, people have big holes in their ears I admit and it’s like, woah, can you cut that thing off and sew it back together? (laughs) But I have to be very accepting in the position that I am in. JACK: Would you say that there are still some teachers today even in your school system that are not very accepting of those students? DECKER: Absolutely. And the kids know. The kids know who cares about them and who’s accepting and not and I would say one of the issues, one of the issues that is still fairly big, probably, is kids in Rockford who are gay. You know? And kids—most of them just try to fly under the radar. They just—I mean I, ya know, fly under the radar. And we have the Gay, Straight Association and stuff like that, but there’s only about seven kids who go to that. You know, not that many kids go but they find acceptance there—but, ya know, I—and I know that, you know, there are a lot of jokes made and things like that and I always feel for those kids. JACK: Do you feel that their studies suffer because--? DECKER: Oh yeah, I’m sure they—they’re always just trying very hard not to be gay—to show that they’re gay. JACK: So you think that there is a lot of stress there that is taking away from what they could be because they’re just trying not to be something that society doesn’t want them to be? DECKER: They don’t want to be noticed. They really don’t want to be noticed. So I would say yeah, absolutely that’s stressful. They don’t want to go to school—and, and these aren’t even the kids who have identifies themselves as gay. They are just, just trying to get out of there as quietly as possible. And then there are other kids that are really embraced—the king, they boy who was just nominated homecoming king is gay. And a couple years ago—a couple years was? Yeah. So it’s not like the student body is not accepting. The student body is fairly accepting—you know, overall—I think they’re even more worried about some of the teachers not being accepting. It’s still West Michigan, conservative West Michigan. So yeah—but the student body will vote for 12 guys [for homecoming court] and pick the guy who is gay for their king and he’s pretty accepting. JACK: Do, like, some of the teachers openly, like, make statements that are derogatory to them? --or so they know which—or is it making the student uncomfortable if they were in their class? Page 5 �DECKER: I—I think people will try to be very politically correct—I think they just let kids say things that, you know I would say, “hey, don’t say that.” Um…um and you know, I think that’s more—I think that kids, um, it’s not that teachers necessarily will say things, um, ‘cause they’ve been trained not to say anything that’s not politically correct. But I think they’ll let the kids get away with things. JACK: Do you feel that you are trying to stand up for the kids because some teachers won’t? Like you said, some teachers will allow students to say things or let students get away with things, but do you feel that you try to go out of your way to help these students because your faculty members don’t? DECKER: Probably—it’s funny that, you know, that I’m going to talk at an FCA, but then you’ve got GSA, and in—in some ways—and I’m—I’m thinking that I might talk to the FCA about—Fellowship of Christian athletes—about hey, love everybody. You know, don’t just love the kids who go to your church, and that’s easy to do, but to love everybody, you know. Really, how are you reaching out to the handicap kids in our building? We had a girl last year who was blind—and I don’t think there were very many people who even said hi to her and it’s like, you know she was a really really smart girl and very nice and I just think that, um, I just want—I just think—I guess I’ve always just kind of loved people and—and want them to feel safe. I think that’s the best way to put it. JACK: Have you experienced things that—where there has been, say, a specific situation where there has been discrimination against a student that you have been witness to? DECKER: Particularly, I don’t think so. I haven’t, like, seen anybody get beaten up. I haven’t seen anybody, um—we are a—at Rockford High School, I brought something with me that said that…we have 1881 white kids in nine through twelve. We have 40 Hispanic, 39 black or African American, 21 Asian, three American Indian-Alaskan, and then I think we have 2 Hawaiian or Pacific Island. So it’s really a white school and I—I haven’t seen, like, any of the white kids picking on the black kids or the Hispanic kids…but over the course of the years I think the kids have become more politically correct too—I haven’t seen that, haven’t necessarily seen anyone pick on anyone who is gay, or Asian, or anything else like that—haven’t seen anyone pick on anything like that but you know, I just—I want to make sure that my room is a pace where anyone can come in and feel safe. So I haven’t seen any particular incidents where kids were like, you know, I mean like I said, we have a king who is gay—people aren’t going to boo.—they’re not going to boo or anything they’re very polite…it’s a polite community. JACK: So would you say that’s changed over the years? We’ve become—that our society has become more tolerant towards them? DECKER: Oh yeah—you’re generation is so much more tolerant than ten years ago or twenty years ago when I first started teaching—I’m more tolerant. I would’ve let those jokes go twenty years ago, I admit it. And you know—and my family they used to make—there used to be, like, racial jokes or stuff like that and I would—I—it’s only as an adult and the more I’ve worked in the school system that I’ve become more open minded myself, you know? But I don’t know, your generation’s a whole lot different than my generation was—and I went to a school that was integrated…but there were fights sometimes and that—there wasn’t a lack of safety but it wasn’t—there was always a lack of ignorance. I don’t think you’re so ignorant of each other anymore. And I push not being ignorant of each other—okay so it’s like, Page 6 �so, so that person’s black? He’s got more pigment—we’re always trying to get tan (laughs) I mean really? Why does this matter? You know? So, I guess I think your generation is a ton more tolerant. I’ve seen a lot of change—Rockford when I first started was class size of about 350. And my *first+ daughter’s class was 680. I think this year we only have 600, but, you know, when you go from 350 who all grow up on farms around Rockford and the few people who live in downtown Rockford, um, and then all-asudden you start bringing in this diversity of economics …we have some really really rich people there and some really really poor people and we have a lot of people in the middle—we have school of choice—we just have to be very flexible. JACK: Do you think that a lot of the different racial or ethnic groups kind of clump together? Is there a lot of mixture with the students? DECKER: There’s a lot of mixture—they don’t have a choice. There are only 39 black students in the school? They can’t all just hang out with black kids. I mean, truly, they don’t—and Hispanic—I’m thinking really? We have 4000—you can’t tell! Everybody mixes. I mean my one daughter’s Asian—she really grew up white. You know it wasn’t like there was a bunch of Asian kids to hang out. So I think they have no choice—they have to—when—as I was telling my friend when we had dinner, kids who come in who are black, if they come in from outside the community, they may act like they’re inner-city for about a year and then they’re Rockford. Everybody just mixes…I don’t think that’s the big deal. It used to be a big deal but it’s not a big deal anymore. JACK: What kinds of organizations are available for kids at Rockford that really promote diversity within the student body? DECKER: We have a diversity club, but I don’t know if it’s met at all this year. Then I said, we have GSA, Gay-Straight Association?—or I think its Alliance—I think that’s what it is. Um…and then like I said, the anime club which sometimes will get, like, your skaters and people like that—but, um, I mean— they’re—and we have FCA and we have chess club and eco club and stuff like that so there are a lot of different clubs—but as far as diversity we just have the one diversity club. So…there isn’t a lot—what else is out there that’s available. JACK: Do you think it’s important for students to really, kind of up that? Or make it better? DECKER: You know, I think that would be probably helpful. I think—umm—the entire student body has been trained with guest speakers and things over the years to kind of look at each other as oh, yeah we’re just all equal. We do a good job of bringing in guest speakers. JACK: I have heard that at Rockford you have to be either really good at sports or really good-looking or really good in the arts or music or something to kind of… I guess, get along there and if you don’t have one of those, you’re going to have a tough time at Rockford. Would you say that that is true? Would you say that it was true and it’s changing now? Do you have any opinion on that subject? DECKER: I think it’s changing now…when you mention sports…or, like we have band…a lot of band kids hang with band kids and a lot of choir people hang with choir people. Um—I think it’s changed a lot though over the years…um I think if kids spend time doing those things in which they have to be good Page 7 �at—it’s just they spend so much time with those people that they become their friends but I think it—I think there’s a pretty decent mix—I don’t think people are necessarily prejudice. When I put groups together I always try to put people of different—you know, groups together but I don’t think it’s as…mmm…. Let’s see but I’m not in it, I’m not in a click, I don’t have to worry about “clicky-ness”. I don’t notice that so much…you may know more about that than I do JACK: How has your faith influenced the way you think about diversity and the way your present yourself in situations? DECKER: Um, you know, what I think that my faith has a lot to do with it because I just grew up when, you know, “Jesus love the little children” everybody, you know, we’re supposed to love each other and do unto others as you would have others do unto you and so i think my faith has a lot to do with it. Not to say that people who don’t have faith wouldn’t have the same attitudes towards people. I think sometimes if kids realize, you know, I’m a Christian, sometimes I think people might go, “oh, well she’s going to be like, judgmental” and things like that and I’m not and then it takes them by surprise and they’re glad about that. And so then I think we get along quite well. JACK: Can you tell us more about your schooling when you were younger and maybe about things that you came across with diversity? DECKER: Well, I went to Aberdine Elementary School …um which was three blocks from my house and as I said, it was just a neighborhood school until fourth grade they—um many kids were bused in—I’m not even sure where they were bused in from, but somewhere else in Grand Rapids. Um, and it was a mixture, it wasn’t just…um…busing in black kids, but it was to integrate the school system and the law said integrate the school system and um, so—you know when you’re a little kid? And kids are kids are kids, you know? You’re not even like, “oh my gosh” you know, it’s not that big of a deal, it’s more what your parents say that you start to notice things. But, um, you know, so I think growing up in that elementary and then—and I went to a junior high that was back to being a neighborhood school, you know, and there was the one Asian family and they were really smart, and there was the one black family. And then we went to the high school and that was very integrated. So, I think that I just realized—and I went on to college and was on teams, you know, I was on track in high school and in middle school and then in college I was on sport—I was on track and cross country and track was a very integrated sport. So, I think I just kind of grew up knowing that, you know—you know we’re all just athletes at that point. So—I don’t think I—but I, you know, there are still a lot of people who still have prejudices and things like that. JACK: Was there anything that stands out to you—I don’t know if you remember—in like, when you were growing up in like, elementary school, you said that you went to a, um, integrated school—was there any, um, like with the adults, like the teachers there, did they have any, like, that they were against it? Being—? DECKER: I think my fourth grade teacher she was – she did not have good control of the unique classroom that we had, she probably had decent control over, you know, when it was all just this whiteneighborhood kids and things like that. When you bring in a different culture, she did not have—she did Page 8 �not have good control over that. But then that fifth and sixth grade teacher that I had—he was a champion for the people—and I know our class was—had some integration in it and so I would say that his influence probably filtered down to some of the other teachers. But sure, there were some teachers who didn’t want to be teaching at an inner-city school. So, Aberdine was one of the farther north elementary schools, and so I think that was a big shock for them and hard to control. In high school, I don’t remember…I mean I do remember a couple fights between kids, but I don’t think the teachers…I don’t remember anything. And we had—we had more------------ non-Caucasian teachers when I graduated in 77 at Creston. We have, we don't have any non-white teachers at Rockford that I can think of in the whole system. We have a couple of security guards who are non-white and we have a pool manager who is non-white. And every teacher in the system, that I can think of is white. That says something. JACK: Is that including like the school board and superintendent and everybody? DECKER: Absolutely. JACK: Wow. Do you think that has an effect on the students? DECKER: Absolutely, I think, you know, if I was black and the only people I ever saw at the building were white I think that would make me have to be somewhat white because I don't have anyone from my culture. Although we bring in speaker and stuff we still don't understand each other's cultures so when people come into our school they have to basically become white. JACK: Do you think it would be good for you school system to bring in some diverse teachers? DECKER: Yeah, there's got to be someone who has applied for a position in Rockford, who isn't white, who maybe is in a wheelchair or something you know so that people can say that people who have handicaps are able to have positions and someone who is um Asian. I mean when I was in high school we had some foreign teachers who were in there who didn't quite speak English the same way we did. And I'm just amazed that there is not some rule that says you have to have some diversity. JACK: With who's running the school system now do you think that's going to change? DECKER: If somebody different was running it? JACK: With who you have now. DECKER: O, no, I don't think so. I don't think there will be a push for that. And right now there is a hiring freeze for the most part so no one is hiring anybody. I was hired in with about 30 people in 1991 and we were all white. and... JACK: So even your, I didn't mean to interrupt sorry, your foreign language teachers, they're not like, or your Spanish teachers, they're not like Hispanic or anything like that even? DECKER: No, we do have a Hispanic teacher at our building, Mrs. Shordsma, you know who she is? no, no, no, she teaches social studies. And she was the one who had started up the diversity club, and she is the only Hispanic in our building. Page 9 �JACK: Well we have a Japanese teacher DECKER: O yeah if forgot about her, she teaches English. She struggles but, she's not very good with English but she's a great Japanese teacher. I forgot about Meg. Yeah, other than that but, our German Teacher, he's not German, none of our Spanish teachers are Spanish, the French teachers, they're not French and they are very white. Women, for the most part. JACK: That's really interesting, like for me where I went to school we had at least two out of the three Spanish teachers were Hispanic, they knew the language very fluently. And not to say that your teachers don't know the language fluently. DECKER: Well they don't know it in the same way. JACK: Right, but and the culture. DECKER: Well they can talk about the culture but... JACK: They don't know it. DECKER: They don't know the culture. They've never lived the culture. JACK: Do you think that maybe the teachers and the faculty should kind of join together to bring more diversity, or do you think that it's kind of between a rock and a hard place in that situation? DECKER: We're always, you know, and often we've had meetings that we've had to go to that were about diversity. That's just, well look at us you know, we look around there, if we get the whole staff together from the district, there are probably about 500 teachers, and they're all for the most part like I said, a bunch of white people. Who, most of whom probably grew up in West Michigan. So, um, it would be nice to have diversity but probably, I mean truthfully nobody would push for that. JACK: That's very interesting. DECKER: uh huh JACK: Teaching for the past twenty years have you witnessed changes in diversity being the amount of it within the school and the amount of it becoming more prominent? DECKER: I think school of choice is going to continue to impact a lot of schools. I think Rockford will get more and more diverse, um, I don't want to say clientele which sounds kind of weird, um, but I don't think we will ever, I don't think our district will ever be diverse like Kentwood, or the Forest Hills Northern schools, when, when, people move in from foreign countries like Bosnia and things like that, they are not going to pick Rockford. We don't have the, um, we don't have the manpower to help them learn the language. We have a Spanish Immersion class that started in Kindergarten and now, I think, those kids are up to 8th grade. But those are still white kids learning Spanish. And there actually might be a couple of Hispanic teachers in there. But see I'm not in elementary school, so I haven't seen it. I, I think that school choice makes a difference, but I don't think that we are ever going to become diverse. Like even, my brother's at Comstock Park high school, they have become, that used to be just a middle Page 10 �class white school system. And with the influx of students who are living on Alpine like in York Creek or something like that said it's very diversified, I have a friend I met with tonight that teaches at Sacred Heart Elementary she says that her population went from mostly middle class white people to Hispanic, because the neighborhoods have changed. I don't see that happening at Rockford. I say, that if you talk to me 10 years from now and I'll say we have 59 black students, maybe more, but not, not, it will not become a diverse school system. So, not for a while, I'm not quite sure why maybe there is not jobs out there or something. JACK: Why would people choose Rockford as a school choice? DECKER: Great education. I mean, I talked to somebody last week and he said that you know, we ,we did not, my wife and I were not in private education, we were pretty eerie about putting our kids into a school system and he said I have no complaints with Rockford, the teachers all care about kids and they want them to have a good education so that's why people would want to move to Rockford so I'm just surprised that more people don't come North to Rockford, they just don't. JACK: Do you think it's, um, people aren't choosing that because education isn't as important to people as maybe other things as like sports and stuff like that? DECKER: Well it's a huge sports school though, I mean we have, you know, we joke about how many state championships we've won over the years and things like that. Um, I think that maybe people are afraid maybe that if they come to Rockford they won't be accepted. And I think that, you know, we don't have any choice I mean you're going to accept people because you do. That's just the way the world is, it's a, you know it's a very accepting world so I think maybe that's the reason, a lot of people at Rockford actually has a little bit of a bad reputation because we are so good in sports, kind of like Grand Valley, and um, know that our sports teams, you know everybody is successful and things like that. Um, but I think that people are afraid of the lack of acceptance, but, I don't think, It's harder I think for kids who are poorer and for kids who are of a different race. At Rockford. JACK: Do you think Rockford prepares like most of your seniors who are going off to college, do you think that your school prepares them for the amount of diversity that they are going to experience in college or do you think that? DECKER: I think we try but I don't think we can do that, I mean, my daughter when she left Rockford and went to Michigan State, she said all these Asian people were trying to say hi to her and make conversation with her. Well she couldn't do that because well, you know she speaks English. But she never said it was a shock for her, and Michigan State is a lot more diverse than Grand Valley is, Grand Valley's a lot like Rockford. Um, Michigan State is really diverse but I don't think she's ever said that she's had any problem with anybody of different race. So I don't think, I think she was prepared; we do the best that we can with what we have. JACK: Have there been any landmark events that have changed your opinion dealing with diversity? DECKER: You know, um, landmark as in my own classroom or landmark like something that happened in the nation? Page 11 �JACK: Basically anything that you, I know you discussed more of your family when you were younger but in the nation or... DECKER: You know, landmark events that kind of changed my opinions, really, um, would be the "I have a dream" speech by Dr. Martin Luther King I was probably 8 or 9 at the time, that made quite an impression on me, um, in my classroom I think just, you know, seeing, seeing that it doesn't matter what kids look like they're still kids, um, I think that's made a huge difference in my life. But, as far as like something, you know like, getting or having a black president or something like that will you know, I'm like, it's about time. You know, are you kidding me, you know, slavery ended in 1860s so you know, um, I guess that, you know, the big things for me would have been like my teacher and Dr. Martin Luther King's speech. JACK: Do you have any students that in particular stood out to you or I know over the years you said that your own children have changed your views on teaching, or, how you deal with students in the classroom, anything like that? DECKER: um not necessarily just... Just you know, like I can remember this one guy he had hair longer than I ever dreamed of having and there all the boys were wearing their hair short. I just remember thinking, I mean that changed my way of looking at people with long hair, guys with long hair. And having a student, you know say, you know my dreams for my future are this and knowing that this kid is one of those gay kids who's just trying to slide under the radar so he's making up what he thought I would want to hear, but you know that makes, that changes the way I feel about kids and I just think you know, just being with kids all the time. As I said, kids are kids are kids and I felt that way around the world; people are people are people nobody's my enemy necessarily, um, you know just because they come from a different country doesn't mean they're my enemy, their government might be an enemy of my government but people in Afghanistan are not my enemies. JACK: Would you say your views are constantly changing or your... DECKER: They're improving. JACK: Yeah. DECKER: Growing, yes, I have a lot of years left hopefully to grow but I'm getting better and better. Like I said, when I first started teaching I probably have some of those same prejudices and things like that and now I'm not afraid to say to kids, hey you know, why, you know that doesn't fly here. We don't talk like that, or you need to apologize or you're not going to act that way. And it's not o.k. that it's o.k. with you and him between you to say those kinds of things, it's not o.k. with me. You know, but I say it in a nice way. You know, instead of, I mean, maybe years ago I would have said it in a meaner way, but now I say it in a very nice way. JACK: You said that there were people in your family that used to be prejudice towards other people, have you seen them change at all? DECKER: Um, one of my brothers would probably fly a Confederate flag if he could. Um, but, you know and it's funny because my mother in law, I wouldn't say she's a prejudice person but she still refers to Page 12 �people that are black as colored. And you know she just never evolved with the times. I had a student last year though, her dad is black and her mom was white and this girl's quite, she's quite white actually and she said I would identify with black and would you want to be called African American and she said no, I'm not African American, I'm an American; a black American and I don't want to be called African American which has been really interesting. But as far as family members go I don't think really, I mean, besides this one brother of mine and I think he's had to evolve, um, he still will say things but not in the same way that he used to because he's had to become more politically correct. My other brother, he's a counselor and he's, he's, he's fairly open minded so, I think that um prejudices, there still are more prejudices toward gender identity and things like that, but I don't anybody would be so rude to in the family to say things. JACK: I know in education a lot of times teachers have to deal with parents, has there been any issues with parents or have you connected with any parents over diversity in school? DECKER: I, um, I think most parents know, I, I, I, a good thing. They know that um, it's a safe place to be, in my room and things like that. So I haven't had to deal with that, um, in a negative way. Just in a positive way. But mostly everybody's just like well thanks for making them work really hard and that type of thing. JACK: Have you had any students come to you and thank you for what you've done and opening your doors and things like that? DECKER: Oh yeah, this one girl gives me a hug like every single day. (Laughing) Oh hi Mrs. Decker. This one junior that I had last year, she is part of GSA, and I am like your fine its great your fine and I think that that group it’s kind of weird for me to connect with that group not because I’m prejudice or anything like that just because you know I am not the teacher in charge of that group but I think that group and the kids in that group have connected with me a lot, and it is like I said this one girl gives me a hug every day and hangs around my room and stuff like that. But I have kids who will come in my room and just eat at lunch. I mean because they don’t have anywhere else to go and I am like ok yeah know come on in my room and eat and sit there. And yeah know this year I don’t, but I have had like foreign exchange students who will just hang out until they got a group they could meet and things like that. So, I think that they just know I am a friend, and I am a teacher, and even though I work them really hard. Most kids I tell them they are not going to like me when they have me, but the year after they have me they will like me. But no, I think most kids know I am very safe. I guess the only prejudice I have is that they are not allowed to wear Western Michigan stuff in my classroom. It was college day today because it is our spirit week, and this one girl walks by and says Mrs. Decker I almost wore my Western Michigan shirt just to bug you. I went to Central and Grand Valley. But no, I think that you know I do have kids that come to me and kids feel comfortable with me. And I like I said I but a GSA sign up and I put and FCA sign up if I had to and a diversity club sign up, so I just think everyone feels pretty comfortable. But, I don’t know that that was true twenty years ago. So, I think I have changed. JACK: I know that you mentioned that you have adopted children. What led you to adoption? Page 13 �DECKER: Umm…You know even when I was little I think that in the back of my mind I thought I would do that. I thought I was going to grow up and be a missionary or something like that. But some of those countries have really big bugs. And that’s the truth. But you know when my husband and I weren’t able to have children we had no problem; we wanted to have children so we were willing to adopt. But I’ll have to say that before our son was born and he is twenty- two the doctor who had been my OBGYN person moved out to Wautoma, Washington and she called us with a possible adoption, and the child was going to be black. And I said we can’t do that. And she said I am so surprised I thought you could love any child. I said I could love any child but we were living in Newaygo we weren’t living in Grand Rapids. We were living in Newaygo, Michigan and I don’t think that child in Newaygo, Michigan in this day and age can be accepted. I said I will not do this to a child, and at this point in time we had no plans to move anywhere else. My husband worked at Gerber in Fremont and I was a sports reporter covering sports in that area and we had no plans to move. So, then I said no I won’t adopt that child just because it won’t be good for that child. Now living in Grand Rapids and Rockford it would not have been a problem at all. Then, when our daughter when she was going to be born and we were chosen to be her birth parents we went through Bethany Christian Services for Andrea. I said the only person who we need to call and say is this ok is my mom. I said can you love this Asian child or are you going to reject this Asian child. So we just wanted to have children and things like that. And race would not have made any difference, but location made a difference. We had a pretty honest feel for that situation; there were no black kids in Newaygo. So, being a black child at that time was not going to be well received. So, we just knew that. JACK: Have you felt any discrimination toward your adopted child Andrea? Is that… DECKER: You know I did not. I did not. And I had known about it till years later that a parent said did you know a student called her a derogatory term. And she never told me that. She was always very good at handling her things and things like that. And I said no. So then I asked her about that and I said well what happened with this; this like last year and what happened and she said yeah so and so called me a spic, and I said she didn’t even get her derogatory term correct you’re not Hispanic yeah know. That’s a derogatory term for someone who is Hispanic and that. So I said well what was your reaction and she said well I just decided that that person wasn’t really a friend. Then, a couple years later I found out that there was a little bit more to it than that because she wrote a paper when she was a senior and I said you never told me any of this. And so there was not necessarily that kind of terminology and it was some other things like that, but she was always good at handling that. But I think she pretty much grew up white. Yeah. And not because we didn’t like when the girls were little I put them in summer class for a week and they learned Vietnamese. Do you remember that at all? JACK: No DECKER: No. (Laughter) Andrea learned the Vietnamese, and she has connected in the last years with her birth mom. Who lives in um Texas and she a half sister and two half brothers, and she met the half sister this summer that is fifteen years old and things like that. But their white too because their birth mom was adopted straight out of Tycoon and was raised in the US by a white, English School teacher. So, she was raised pretty white too. Not like we tried to take her to Buddhist temples and things like Page 14 �that. Yeah know we never did anything like that. And our son is Caucasian. So, um but I don’t think she felt really prejudice against do you? You’d no better than I do. JACK: She said she feels like a white person. DECKER: Absolutely I am sure she feels like a white person; she grew up very white. JACK: And she went to Michigan State? DECKER: She is at Michigan State. JACK: She is. DECKER: And her dorm; her first dorm was totally integrated. People from everywhere. But I don’t think she met many people. I think pretty much her roommate was dad was white mom was black they got along great and things like that. I think she mixes well with various races. But she is still probably hanging out with white people because she is living with white people. So. Is there anything else? JACK: Where do you think the members of the diverse student body have made the most progress in the school system? DECKER: I would probably have to say acceptance. Right. It is interesting, we used to stereotype somebody, if you’re this color your good at this sport or that sport or something like that. And I just think that it’s a huge mix and everybody just mixes in at Rockford and I think just that just being accepted is where we have made the most progress. JACK: Where do you think the least amount of progress has been made? As far as you said that most gay kids still try to fly under the radar. DECKER: Yeah I think that is where the least progress has been made. For somebody who is a different gender identity. Racial isn’t a big deal, but genderism is a deal. JACK: So you would say this community has become a lot more tolerant. I don’t know if you would go as far as saying that don’t mind but they like a gay or lesbian population or something like that. So, why would you say that these students are still just trying to get out of there without being noticed? DECKER: I think it’s a societal thing. I think it’s still that society is not accepting or the different and I don’t think it is so much the students. We have had some kids that are openly gay, who were incredibly popular. So, I don’t think it’s the students so much, it’s a societal thing. I don’t think you are going to get beaten up in the bathroom because he’s gay or she is gay. And I would say it is probably the guys who are gayer that slide under the radar and the girls don’t really care. It is hard to know, girls are friendly with each other anyways, I mean it’s not just like you will see someone who is just best friends hanging out or putting their arm around each other. So I don’t think it is as noticeable with girls as it is with guys. Looking at it is a societal thing. JACK: Would you say that that is less in Michigan? You know compared to a different state like California, or Chicago. You don’t think that that would have much of an issue as in west Michigan? Page 15 �DECKER: I would say I think it is huge in west Michigan. It’s just a real conservative this side of the state. Which is good and which is bad. But it is changing, because we are forced to change. I would say your generation changes the most because of the media influence. With the media it is no big deal. The shows that are on today that you watch would have been unheard of when I was growing up. The people, the people you see living together and you see people who are actually gay or are pretending to be gay you see that a lot. And so I just think that your generation is changing things. JACK: In a good way? DECKER: I think it is a great way. Absolutely. People are People and People. Somewhere I learned along the line that judging is not good. I am not going to be judging someone because of who there are. I really don’t try to judge people because of their gender identity or something like that. I try not to. And yeah I still want people to have some of my same conservative views, but as far as…people are meant to be loved. JACK: So you don’t think bullying is a problem in Rockford or west Michigan at all? At some schools they bullying this huge thing; I never really saw it at my high school. DECKER: I don’t think so. I mean I have never had someone come to me and say I have been bullied or anything. I mean I don’t think so. I don’t even think when we have a three or four classrooms with special education kids and I don’t think those kids are bullied. They are just maybe left alone. But I don’t think they are bullied. I don’t think kids are mean to them. I think overall we are a pretty nice society. JACK: What kinds of changes do you hope to see in the future? DECKER: Well I would like to see more diversity as far as staff. Uh, I think that’d be great, you know, I would feel really uncomfortable if I like went to a school and everyone was not my race; you know it would be nice to have somebody, a secretary, somebody in the counseling office, somebody, you know, coaching; I think I think all the coaches are white, even, even all the football coaches, the basketball coaches, you know, you name it, whatever we have, everybody the custodians, nothing that’s all pretty homogenized. So, I think it would be nice to change; bring some people in that are qualified. See somebody, see a teacher in a wheelchair, you know, and um we had somebody apply one time, that’s all I remember, I don’t even think, I don’t think people even apply to Rockford sometimes; they probably think it’s a real white society. I would like to see that change. JACK: How do you see that change taking place? DECKER: Very slowly. The only way it’s going to change is if people just start, people who are more diverse than what we have just start applying and applying and applying and eventually, you know, you have got to say, “come on, these people are qualified.” I mean you can’t be turning those away. But, I think that maybe if we had somebody different in, um, the administration or something like that, um, but, I don’t know; it’s just going to change really slowly, because it’s just the way we are. I don’t think we are necessarily not hiring people who are diverse, but I think most diverse people would probably not apply at Rockford or they aren’t related to someone who is already in the system, to tell you the truth, I mean we have a lot of people – there is a lot of nepotism at Rockford, you know like an assistant Page 16 �superintendent whose son is a principal and whose wife does this and this and then they have family friends that they get in, I mean I’m not even sure how I got in… yeah, I know that I got in because the principal at one of the middle schools had gone to my high school and the principal at the high school was a teacher at my high school: they knew me and they knew me as a sports reporter. And they knew, well she was a decent sports reporter, we will get here in and it looks like a choux. So, I think that’s how I got in, I don’t know. Um I don’t know. I was one of the people hiring, or interviewing people for hiring and it was all white people. So, the only way it will change is if people start applying, and keep applying and keep applying. We had a student teacher last year, one student teacher, and I have had an assistant teacher one time that was a really nice girl. A gal who was black, and we had a student teacher last year; and I thought for sure that we would hire her. She was really great, but we are not hiring anybody. So that makes a difference too. JACK: Do you think that maybe Rockford doesn’t have the diversity in teachers and the staff at the school because the community isn’t diverse? DECKER: Probably, probably not even with school of choice we are getting a few people coming in, but the community is not very diverse either. No, I don’t think there is much diversity at all; do you? So, that’s probably it. It would be nice to see the community become a little bit more diverse; people move in. It’s a really nice small town. <pause> Do you want me to say something controversial? [Laughing] JACK: Do we want to talk about education a little bit too? Well, we discussed in class about the education system and some faults and some positives, but we were wondering maybe some of your views of the standards that you have to live up to as a teacher… and the government standards if they are different and the government influence on the system. Just elaborate. DECKER: First of all, I don’t think that some of the people in the government who are coming up with these standards really have any understanding of what it is like in the classroom. Now they have decided that the principal should evaluate each teacher twice a year. So, we have three principals in our building and we probably have about 130 teachers. So, if you look at that, and they are dividing it up, you know you get thirty, you get forty, you get forty, you get forty-five or whatever. So it means that they are trying to come into the classroom twice a year. And it sounds great, it really sounds like, woah, yeah those teachers should be evaluated twice a year; but they also have all of their other administrative positions too. And like last year I was evaluated and they are supposed to spread in out throughout the year. So, the assistant principal; I said to my husband with nine days to go, “He hasn’t been in yet, I bet he is not going to come in because he is going to be going over to an elementary and becoming a principal.” So I saw him on like a Thursday and I said, “Are you planning on coming in to my classroom at all?” and he said, “Yep, I’ll be in tomorrow. What are you doing?” And I said, “Okay, well we are going to be doing a quiz and we are going to have food because we had this one thing going on,” and then I said, “and I will be talking about Lord of the Flies with my tenth graders.” And he said, “Okay, great. I’ll come in.” So he came in and sat through the quiz, had a doughnut or something like that; and then he never stayed to see me teach. And so then, the next week; we are running out of time. We are basically to exam week. And I saw him again and said, “Are you coming back in?” and He said, “Yep, what are you Page 17 �doing tomorrow?” And I said, “Well I’m giving the test. We just finished The Things They Carried and we just finished Lord of the Flies, so I’m giving tests in those classes.” And um, he said, “Well, what about Monday?” And I said, “Well, we are going to watch the Lord of the Flies and we are going to be watching a movie on the Vietnam War because now we are at exam week. We are not going to teach two days before exams, you know. We are going to do something low key. And he goes, “Okay, well I will come in for the test.” Well, I’m not teaching during the test, I hand out the test and oh she did a great job like that (motions applause). So he evaluates me and I said, “You got this wrong.” I said, “You praised me on an area I’m not that strong at: contacting parents; because once we went an automated system where all the grades are online and the parents can see things, they basically told parents: the principal basically said, “If your kids are doing well in school, you don’t have to come to conferences.” So people quit coming, and now everybody can see everything online. The kids know, they come into class, I put grades in before school and they come into class second hour and say, “I saw my grades online.” So everybody knows everything. I am not great at connecting parents if their kids aren’t doing well. You know, if they’re failing yes, but if they are getting a D I don’t necessarily contact them because they can see it. Why do I? You know, if they are interested they can contact me, and I said “but you messed up in this one because I am very proficient on how I evaluate them in many different ways.” And I said, “So you messed up on that one.” He had the dates wrong and everything because I think he was trying to cover his tail because he was supposed to spread them out and he came in basically like five days apart. And I said that I am going to impend a letter to tell you those things that you do not have on this sheet that qualify me, you know, as a proficient teacher. And so now they are supposed to come in twice a year, one announced and one unannounced, and one of the math teachers said, “You know we are going to have to provide every one of the benchmarks that we’re meeting with the states says we are going to meet.” Rockford is an excellent system, but we don’t all have these benchmarks memorized that we are supposed to. So now, if he tells me that he is coming in on Thursday or if he doesn’t tell me, and he walks into my class and he says, “You’ll have those benchmarks on my desk by the end of the day.”, I can’t do that because I don’t- that is not how I do my lesson plans. I have these huge folders and there are things that I add every year or change every year, but I don’t necessarily qualify them by a bunch of benchmarks; but I know that when kids leave my classroom I am doing a good job because I’ve asked them: “Is there anything? What can I do differently?” I just had an email with a girl who is at Western. I said, “Mary, let me know what I could do differently to make you that much better of a student.” You know, she is a freshman, so I haven’t heard back from her; but I always ask kids, and I asked this one kid and I said, “Did I prepare you for college?” and he said “No, Mrs. Decker.” And I said, “What do you mean?” and he said, “College is so much easier than your class ever was.” So, it’s like why do, I know I am meeting those benchmarks. And there are ninety-two benchmarks where there used to be for English, and when I was at the Rockford Freshman Center, our principal told us we had to meet all ninety-two that year. We’re like, “You’re nuts!” We can’t do that. This one benchmark has like ten different areas of writing that you are supposed to cover. That would be a year’s worth of benchmarks. You know like: character analysis, autobiography and narrative, a research paper, you name it. One benchmark could take the year to cover. And there were ninety-two of them. And now they say, “Well, no. You cover those ninety-two in four years.” Well okay, but what qualifies, because my students are reading The Crucible aloud; so does that qualify as I am teaching them how to speak? Not really; but, they are learning intonation, things like that. So, I think it’s nuts. They just told us that all the M.E.A.P. Page 18 �qualifiers or the M.M.E. qualifiers: how Rockford did last year, how many of our kids were proficient last year; next year or this year when they take it because the standards have been raised this high, only 76% of them would be proficient versus 93% of them. Now if Rockford, which is a fairly consistent, stable society and community; if we can’t meet those benchmarks - how is inner-city Detroit going to meet those benchmarks? And plus, we have computers, and our teachers have computers in our classrooms; most my kids have, you know, cell phones and iPhones and stuff like that. I talked to my friend who is a teacher at Sacred Heart, and they do not even have computers in their classrooms for the teachers. And it is like if we have that and somebody up in Everett, Michigan doesn’t have that; how can they meet those benchmarks if we’re worried about them. Inner-city Grand Rapids-- You know; how can they meet those benchmarks? Yeah, it’s great, but you’re not changing the family structure; so how can you expect the teachers. We’re expected, our special ed. kids are expected to as well as our regular ed. kids on the ACT. Really? I had a girl last year with a seventy-four I.Q. She could read a paragraph and not remember a thing that she read at the end of it; and they are supposed to meet the ACT requirements or else our school is not proficient and if my special ed. students don’t get the same score that you would get on the ACT than I am going to be evaluated differently? You know like, you’re not a very good teacher. She has a seventy-four I.Q.! And I can’t help if people have lazy butts either. I have slums in my classroom that sit there and ask me to entertain them. So, I just think the state: good intentions, we lost our manufacturing so now we are going to be a smart state, gene pool hasn’t changed, you know, let’s be realistic here. So, I just think the government should be taking care of the economy and work on the bad schools and let the good schools continue to do a great job. JACK: Do you think that maybe, with the state having such high standards is, in a way, hurting us? DECKER: Yeah because I don’t think that we can meet those high standards. This is a manufacturing state. And, I think we have, years ago, a lot of people would go through school and kind of get through school and then go to manufacturing positions and things like that, and I think that nation-wide I think the standards are hurting us. We are competing against people; I think like Switzerland has some of the highest standards and they meet those, but they don’t ask their special ed. kids to take those. When you see those polls where the United States is way down here and those other countries are way up here, they usually take just the cream of the crop and give those kids the test. And I think the standards are hurting us. I just think it is making us look dumber and dumber and dumber. And in some ways society is getting dumber. JACK: So you’re saying that at Rockford they make all the special ed. students take the ACT, even the ones with like Down syndrome? DECKER: No we don’t have any, I think we have one student that might be slightly downs; um, other than that they have learning disabilities and some low I.Q.’s. We do have a couple self-contained classrooms. They get-- Somebody will like read it to them or something like that, but it’s still the remembering. If you would have to study a month’s worth of notes before any exam, you know how hard that is. Now we are asking them to read and just cognitively understand something that they might read the sentence and they don’t even understand it. So, I think the government is well meaning, but I don’t think it is necessarily realistic. Page 19 �JACK: One of our big focuses in class lately has been about textbooks and information being altered or changed or showing the positivesDECKER: Oh instead of showing some of the negative things JACK: And I know that you’re an English teacher, and you read a lot of books- do you notice that? DECKER: The books we read are fairly old books. JACK: Sadly, this is where our recording device died. The remaining part of the interview, we discussed how Jackie did not really see that the books her students read in English class were biased, but she did agree to the idea that all textbooks should relay all of the facts, not just a positive portrayal of history. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1e24581e1e75528d1ec66da24b68fab7.mp3 261bc57128a099ad8d34bb05bcad4d11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Decker_Jacqueline Title A name given to the resource Jacqueline Decker audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Decker, Jacqueline Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jack, Emma Description An account of the resource Born March, 3rd 1959 to parents Richard and Eve Holland. Youngest of three children with brothers Gary and Terry. Grew up in Grand Rapids, graduating from Crestwood high school. She then continued her education at Central Michigan University with a major in English and a minor in psychology. Ran cross country and track and field on the varsity teams. Met her husband (now of 30 years), Steven Decker in the dorms on campus in her freshman year, his sophomore year. Was married at age 22 and moved to Fremont, Michigan following her husband. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Age discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/14615bee1536364574dd0ee44c6caaad.pdf 41887eaaf761245ce30baedb863352f1 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Kristine Skippergosh Interviewer(s): Adam Cutler, Michael Miller and Rebecca Stow Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: December 17, 2011 Runtime: 01:13:46 Biography and Description Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties her father faced regarding race in his early years, as well as some of her own challenges. Transcript STOW: So… Could you start by just giving us some basic information about yourself, Full name, and date and place of birth? Also your parents and siblings. SKIPPERGOSH: Ok. Well my name is Kristine Skippergosh, um, I am originally from Grand Rapids. I was born and raised in Grand Rapids. Um, my dad is Gary and my mom’s Laurie. Um, I have three brothers. Uh, they are thirty-six, thirty-four and fourteen [laughing], big age difference. I have a niece and nephew who are three and one and a half. Um, they all live in Boyne City though…so… far away. Um, I went to Kenowa Hills high school, it’s in Walker…um, yeah *laughing+. STOW: So wha… what exactly is it that your parents do, or your dad (SKIPPERGOSH: oh um) what he does for a living? SKIPPERGOSH: He is an electrician for the city of Wyoming so… STOW: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: Yep, um, he went to an Indian Trade School for that, so… CUTLER and STOW: ok SKIPPERGOSH: Kind of interesting. Um, that’s where the Native American heritage is from, it is onehundred percent Native American so, CUTLER: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: mmhm. Page 1 �STOW: What about your mom, is she…? SKIPPERGOSH: Um… she is *pause for thinking+ Dutch and French. *Laughing+ STOW: A pretty good variety. SKIPPERGOSH: Yep. STOW: Um… so, do you know what the Indian Trade School was like, for him? SKIPPERGOSH: Um… well, *multiple people talking+ he originally started at Northern Michigan University. He went there for his first semester. Um, I think he was actually going into elementary education…but, over his Christmas break my grandpa passed away. So then he moved to Arizona and he got married not long after he went down there. It was um… They were high school sweethearts. So (CUTLER: ok) and he went to the trade school down there and played baseball on their baseball team and I know he has an award down there, I’ve never actually seen it, but um, for outstanding academics and athletics, and he also has one at his old high school too, so… *laughing+ CUTLER: How many, how many years did he complete at Northern before he moved? SKIPPERGOSH: Just the semester CUTLER: Oh, so it was one semester… ok. SKIPPERGOSH: Yep, um… My grandma passed away when he was like, eight, so… when my grandpa passed away, he… decided to go elsewhere I guess, explore a little bit *laughing+ CUTLER: So did you have any family in Arizona or did he (SKIPPERGOSH: no) just decide to move out there. SKIPPERGOSH: Just went out there to the trade school… CUTLER: Wow alright. SKIPPERGOSH: mmhm, yep. It was… I don’t know if it was in Albuquerque… or just near, actually it was Mexico first. He was in the trade school, then he moved to Arizona for a little while, so… yep. STOW: So is that where he, like, completed his college education? SKIPPERGOSH: yep STOW: So how did he end up back in Grand Rapids? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, he first went… he is originally from Charlevoix, I guess I probably could have said that first [laughing]. Um, he was born and raised in Charlevoix, and he went back up there first to, I guess, look for work. Um, by the time he got back up there he was already, um, divorced, so he had two young kids, and was divorced, and, um, so he went back up there to look for work. There wasn’t really much of anything… and, he had friends in Grand Rapids, so that’s when he came down here. Page 2 �CUTLER: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: So… mmhm. STOW: Um… so… um when his first marriage got, um, so was that to your mom or was (SKIPPERGOSH: no) was that someone else? SKIPPERGOSH: Nope, that was to someone else. My older brothers are half-brothers. CUTLER and STOW: Oh ok. SKIPPERGOSH: That’s why there is big age difference. (CUTLER and STOW: ok) Because we are thirteen and fifteen years apart… so *laughing+ STOW: So then he met your mom in Grand Rapids? SKIPPERGOSH: mmhm, yep, um… It was through a mutual friend that they had, it was another Indian guy. And he was dating one of my mom’s best friends. So… (STOW: oh ok), they met through… through them. CUTLER: Ok… and what did he, um, complete his schooling for… like SKIPPERGOSH: Um it was actually, it was originally, he has a… like license in electronics. And then he also, um… it’s an extra license to do, like, traffic signals. So… (CUTLER: ok), he got that too. CUTLER: And then he moved back to… he found a job in Grand Rapids? SKIPPERGOSH: Yeah, um, he actually… which, I didn’t know this until I interviewed him, but, he um, he did have a lot of trouble at the time because it [long pause] late seventies, early eighties there was, you know, there was still a lot of discrimination (CUTLER: yeah) and he had trouble finding work up North. So, when he came back down here he applied for a job, and I guess he got the job, like, on the spot… like through the interview. The guy just asked him. It was on a Thursday and the guy asked him if he could be there Monday morning. (CUTLER: Wow)… Yep! *Laughing+ CUTLER: So about the, about the discrimination… do… has your dad talked about anything like, that he, like about not being able to get a job? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, there’s actually… all through growing up he went through, I guess, he experienced a lot of discrimination (CUTLER: uh-huh). Um, he is one of seven kids, and in Northern Michigan there are a lot of Indian reservations. CUTLER: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: And there is one in Harbor Springs. It’s right near Petoskey and Charlevoix. And that’s actually where we are, like, tribal members. Um… When my grandma passed away, since sixty-three I think, they said that um, like the government came and said my grandpa was un-fit to take care of the kids by himself. Because first he couldn’t provide enough money, but my grandma didn’t work, so… even when she was alive he was the, you know, the soul provider of income. Um… but, one of my Aunts at Page 3 �the time, I think she was already twenty, so she was out of school…and everything. And she offered to take care of the younger kids. CUTLER: There were seven kids? SKIPPERGOSH: Yes CUTLER: wow, ok. SKIPPERGOSH: Um, they are all about two years apart (CUTLER: ok) Um so there were still a couple of them. My dad was like, eight, and my other uncle was six. And I think my aunt was around ten so there were a couple of them still. Um, but they were also told that she couldn’t take care of them, so the younger ones went into foster care [long pause] yep. STOW: So SKIPPERGOSH: So I guess that was like part one [laughing] STOW: So what ended up happening with the foster care, how long were they… involved with that. SKIPPERGOSH: Um… my dad was thirteen when he got to go back to live with my grandpa so… not too long… but a few years. They were originally separated, and then they were finally like, found homes, where all three could be together. Because most families wouldn’t take in three kids because they said they would only take in one at a time or two. So they were originally apart for a while then they found families that would take all of them together. So… STOW: So, then what was it that allowed them to be able to go back to your grandpa. SKIPPERGOSH: Um… I’m not really sure. My dad’s not too sure. I mean he was still young. He was around thirteen, so… I guess they were just told that they could go back. Maybe it was just because it was only the three of them that needed taking care of. But, I mean they were going into high school or in high school already so… I mean being a little bit older, so… mmhm. STOW: So you said that was kinda part one, so was there anything in high school that happened? SKIPPERGOSH: In high school my dad was… I guess you could say he was quite an exceptional athlete. He still has track records that haven’t been broken yet. Um… and I mean he graduated in seventy-four. CUTLER and STOW: wow SKIPPERGOSH: So they have been standing for many years now. Um, but he played varsity basketball and football all four years, and in basketball, I don’t know about anything else, I don’t know if it was ever challenged. But at one point there were three Native Americans on the team. And they were told that there can only be two. CUTLER: Wow SKIPPERGOSH: So, um, my dad, obviously, ended up staying. But one of the other guys had to leave. And I think he wasn’t originally from up there, so he went back to wherever his family was. So… mmhm. Page 4 �CUTLER: So that was just the basketball team, but was there any other incidences other than that? SKIPPERGOSH: um, I don’t think it was… my dad has said before that there were always like teachers and stuff who would, you know, try very hard to keep them down and if they could, you know, keep them off the teams, like via grades and stuff, but, um… my dad has like a special reward, like, I guess it would be a replica of it, but it’s for outstanding academics and athletics and it was presented to him by the athletic boosters of the administration of the school because he was incredibly smart and solid in academics and also in sports. CUTLER: yeah SKIPPERGOSH: I guess he kind of got lucky. It was hard for them to keep him down and keep him out of everything because he was, you know, he was needed, especially in like track and football and (CUTLER: yeah) so… STOW: um, so, when, like with like teachers were there any that actually. I guess I don’t know how to phrase it. If he was being singled out I guess or were there like other people that he was friends with maybe that were going through the same thing. SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I’m not exactly sure about being singled out, but I know there was just a lot of discrimination in general against Native Americans. Like if they could stop them from graduating they would and, um… the biggest problem at the time was like during the seventies… I don’t know if you guys know too much about it but, um, but that was like the Native American movement, when it was all happening. And that was when the biggest turnover was like when it comes to laws and regulations. And um, the… um, reservations now have their own tribal police and all native American reservations are technically independent nations where the federal law does not apply unless there is a felony committed. So they have no jurisdiction (CUTLER: ok) So anywhere up there is tribal land and they were first establishing their police department and it was a big problem because as a tribal member, like even now, if I were to like, get pulled over for anything, all I would have to do is demand a tribal police officer, and the state police or whoever couldn’t do anything until a tribal police officer came. And they would have all authority. So it was… a really big deal up there. (CUTLER and STOW: uh-huh) because there were quite a few Native Americans. (CUTLER: yeah) And, you know, that’s where the majority of the reservations are from there to the UP, so I mean our tribe was just establishing all… you know, their rights. And you know, all of the financial situations were being settled because, um, if you live on or within a certain distance of the reservation up there, the Native Americans do not have to pay state taxes (CUTLER: ok) or the city, or like the village or whatever it is taxes. So, and it’s for anything… like your home, or buying a car, for gas or anything like that, so… it was… a lot of people didn’t like that (CUTLER: yeah) especially at the time. I mean. So it was, you know, anything they could do, like my dad always had trouble finding jobs and stuff, even when you were younger, and he worked on a lot of farms and did farm work. So, it was just a lot of the little things. CUTLER: So I don’t know if we’ve established this, but what tribe is your dad from? SKIPPERGOSH: Actually he is half Ottawa and half Chippewa, were members of the little Traverse bay band of Odawa Indians. (CUTLER: ok) It’s in Petoskey and Harbor Springs. And then, um, there is also Page 5 �another tribe that’s like associated with us and that’s the Grand Traverse Bay, and that’s in Traverse City. Um, I don’t know if you guys have ever been to the casino up there, but *laughing+ the casino is their casino. CUTLER: Um, so, during that time period, uh, where there was a big legislation that passed, was your dad a part of like, any groups that like groups that helped get that passed or like, any advocate groups er? SKIPPERGOSH: Um… not too much, I know my grandpa and um… and we have family members now that are on like, that are board members of the tribe and stuff like that or work in different members of the tribe. And one of my brothers is like, high up in the casino and so, um, but my dad’s he’s not too much, effects him personally. He kind of just let others take care of it so. And I don’t know if it really came down to there needing to be too much of a fight just because it was like Federal law that was passed. So there wasn’t really too much anyone could do but be mad about it and limit as much as they could. But otherwise it was not, you know, there was not much fighting that was needed because it was what it was. STOW: um so, just going back to the tribe. Was your dad always a part of that and then you… like when did you become a part of it SKIPPERGOSH: um, it was, the way it works is um, like when you’re born, there are forms to be filled out. And they have to be turned in within two months or so, of um… birth. And I’m pretty sure my dad was always a part of it. um, We don’t know too much just because my Grandma died, you know, he was so young, he doesn’t really remember her. Um, but her tribe, she was Chippewa, her tribe is in Berega, it’s in the UP near Marquette. Um but he doesn’t know too much about it. Um, most of, well I guess, just about all of my family is also a part of the same tribe. I just have some cousins who are part of the other one just cause their dad was originally was a part of it. So if you have like two parents who are both Indian and part of a Tribe, the parents can choose. And a lot of it comes, it obviously comes down to money and what has better benefits and stuff. Otherwise there is not too much choice, and to be a full tribal member you have to be at least a quarter of the tribe. STOW: Ok, So then what sorts of things are involved with being a member of it? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, well, I have an, I mean I have like a tribal ID card. It’s like a picture ID, I mean it’s very similar to like or Grand Valley IDs its not like super official. But It does like scan stuff, um. I can use it up there, there are two gas stations I can use it at, and I don’t have to pay the state taxes, on gas when I use it, um. Which is really nice. *laughing+ Um, they’re like I have a tuition waver through the govern, which like the government pays the state of Michigan pays um to go to school and I just have to be a full time student and I think I have to maintain a 2.0 GPA. So as long as your… passing I guess *laughing+ I mean, its not, you know, unfortunately it’s not too much of a big deal, but um, I also would get for grad school, they pay for that [CUTLER: ok, wow]um, I get a, I guess its more of a private scholarship its through or tribe specifically, but most of them have them, for, it’s like for certain people. Um, mine is the Michelle Chinglaw scholarship. She was one of your tribal board members and she passed away of cancer so they started a fund in her name, and it’s a per credit hour scholarship so depending on how Page 6 �many credits I take I get a certain amount of money and also it depends, I think there are four different ranks for schools um, there’s like, the smallest amount is for like a junior college or community college, then there’s more for a trade school and then slightly more for a four year university, then the highest is for a grad program. And then um… *whispering: oh what else+ um… there are a lot of, I guess for, its called the elders program. Once you reach 55 you get you can get free health care, dental care, all of that. Um, there um, they get like, its for heating and electricity bills and all you have to do is send in the like stubs for what you have paid for the year and they reimburse you five hundred dollars for it. Um. They will reimburse them for medications and stuff, if they hang on to those stubs for everything they have paid for medication, um they’ll reimburse you a certain amount towards that and I think there is also something with groceries, as well. As long as you hang onto, the, you know, again, the receipts and stuff, and what you’ve paid, it all just has to be mailed up there. I think it’s around Christmas time or something. That’s when like they pay out everything. It just all has to be sent up there by then. And I’m not exactly sure how much it is. All I know for sure is heating and electricity is five hundred dollars, um per year. Um, there is also which they’ve actually stopped it now, there was a trust fund set up for um tribal members and you didn’t get it until you were eighteen, and it like started out, um, I know it changed a little bit but it was originally just one lump sum and that was what you got and then they changed it. And it was, it started with that amount of money when you were born like when you were signed up for it and gained interest through that, so [CUTLER and STOW: ok] But that, I think they stopped doing that in ninety-seven because my little brother just missed out. On it. But there are still like you can open, you can like use the tribe for, like bank account type purposes, like you can set up a trust fund yourself through them and the interest rates are really, really high, so, um that’s what my dad has done for my little brother, so, he will still at least get something [laughing] when he turns eighteen. So STOW: Um, so, for you personally, did you ever experience any sort of discrimination when you were growing up or even now? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, every now and then, I mean, I try to be I guess as modest and humble about the things I get you know like I rarely talk about, you know, getting the scholarship that I get and the tuition waver. I mean, in all honesty in the end I essentially make money for going to school because of the scholarship is worth so much money. I have a lot that I hang on to in the end, which I save, I’m not out like spending it ridiculously [laughing], um, but um, I mean, there are some people, who, you know, I guess it’s, I feel like It’s somewhat common knowledge that people know or assume that Indians go to school for free, but I’ve had people like, almost make like snickering comments, about “oh you go to school for free” and, you know, when I mention that I’m Native American, so, um, but its, you know, that’s one of those things where… like at first I kind of cared, it kind of bothered me, but now it’s just one of those things where I’m like “whatever” *CUTLER: yeah+ you know, I mean, it doesn’t matter to me. I mean I’m going to, I mean it’s not going to make me not want to accept the money. I mean it’s a great opportunity, I mean it’s an incredible opportunity, to be able to go to college for free. And um, I’d rather not take advantage of that, I know a lot of people do which also gives like a negative stereotype because, essentially I could be going here and just, you know, squeezing by with bare minimum and continue to, you know, get my way though, I would probably not get a degree with that [laughing] Page 7 �SKIPPERGOSH: ...but um, also, sometimes people make comments about the whole casino thing because like we do make money off the casino but, people assume that, I mean there are tribes out there, don’t get me wrong, that their members are making sixty, seventy thousand dollars a year, I mean it is enough money to live off of, you essentially wouldn’t have to work but, I mean there are very, very few of them [CUTLER: Yeah] um, you could probably count on one hand how many there are in the entire nation, um, but I mean people just assume that I’m like, taking in all of this money every year and it’s, it’s not much money I mean, I get five hundred dollars annually, which I mean, it’s five hundred dollars, but still it’s, it’s no you know, ten thousand dollars a year or anything so a lot of people like, have I guess assumptions about it, and I think it makes them feel negative about it um, I think the biggest thing would probably be like, it seems like a jealous factor almost, like I don’t wanna talk it up that much like make myself out to be, you know, someone that I’m not but um, yeah I mean it’s mostly the comments that have to do with the whole money factor and um, I, I mean I haven’t had to deal with it as much but I still have family in Charlevoix and I know some of them have run into problems where, you know, where being Indian still isn’t ok, which you know, it’s either older people that feel that way you know, who when they were younger, you know, were I guess prejudiced towards Indians and still are but, I mean I try not to let any of it bother me because it’s not really affecting me, and there’s nothing anyone can do *laughs+ about it so, I mean I’m going to accept what I’m given so, um, but yeah I would say the biggest thing is just with money so, and I mean I’ve heard, people have made comments too about like my tuition waiver, how it’s their tax dollars paying for it and they don’t think that’s ok that they have to pay taxes for people to go to school but, again I mean, I’m not gonna not accept it *laughs+ and it’s not like I was, you know, I didn’t come up with these rules they were come, you know, the laws were established many years ago and they’re federal laws it’s not a state law it’s not, a city law so um, I mean I guess that’s the biggest thing. STOW: Ok... *clears throat, brief pause+ um, I’m trying to think do you have anything you wanna ask about? [directed towards CUTLER] CUTLER: Do you think, uh I guess do you think it would be different if it were not in West Michigan like do you think, do you think um, like there would be less discrimination somewhere else or is it like, is there more because it’s West Michigan or... SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I actually feel like in West Michigan it’s...less than it could be *CUTLER: Ok+ other places, um, there’s such a small Indian population just in the first place and um, I feel like a lot of people around here don’t, like probably couldn’t say they know very many Native Americans, if any at all [CUTLER: Mhmm] um, I mean I was one of...three that I knew of in my high school [CUTLER: Ok] and I graduated with over four hundred people *CUTLER: Wow+ so our high school wasn’t small. But, I mean there were, you know, it’s, they’re few and far between I don’t think there are very many that go to Grand Valley [CUTLER: Mhmm+ I don’t know the exact statistic but, um, I know they like push to get, you know, of course they’re pushing to get diversity anyways, but um, I feel like there are a lot of places where it would be worse but there are also a lot of, I mean I’ve learned a lot about it just this year too, a lot more than I knew before um, from my sociology class but, like a lot of the reservations, especially in South Dakota, and like more out west um, there’s one, Pine Ridge, their unemployment rate is at about eighty percent right now [CUTLER: Wow] um, their like casualty rate due to alcohol or like, car accidents Page 8 �with alcohol is above and beyond any other *CUTLER: Mhmm+ um, their suicide rates are obscene it’s just, I mean they don’t, they don’t have work, the government refuses to help because the way the laws are, the federal government does not have to help them [CUTLER: Mhmm] so, I mean their houses are falling apart, they don’t, they don’t have food, they don’t have anything their schools are you know, below any sort of regulation, and I mean out there it’s, the alcoholism rates are, you know probably higher than their unemployment rates unfortunately and um, it’s one of those things where, unfortunately it fuels the negative stereotypes, and makes especially people out there feel even worse about it and um, still the government you know, I mean I feel very fortunate to live in Michigan because the government is very accepting of Native Americans [CUTLER: Yeah] and very helpful but out there they refuse to do anything like on the tribal land they can’t get welfare or anything like that so in order to, you know those families who are struggling, they can’t get the financial help that they need unless they go off the tribal land, but they still have a lot of like sacred rituals out there and they still try to live you know, the way they’ve always lived and it’s, you know, it’s hard because you can’t have it both ways, so...um but yeah I feel very fortunate in West Michigan too, I mean I’ve never experienced anything like that’s truly affected me, um, I mean like I said at first you know, I didn’t really like the way people I guess reacted towards like the financial situations but now, I mean I can’t, I guess I’ve just realized I can’t feel bad for it, um, I can’t, you know, feel sorry that I’ve been given a great opportunity, so, and I’m not gonna, obviously I’m not going to pass it up just because other people don’t like it *STOW: Mhmm+ there are a lot of people who really think it’s great and really, you know, are like happy for me and other people but it’s just, I mean there are a lot of things and it, um...I guess in a way it makes me angry that there are so many people who just continue to fuel the stereotypes, um like I’ve said my family’s very big I’m one of forty one first cousins *STOW and CUTLER: Wow+ so it’s, it’s I mean it’s huge and I honestly can’t say I even know all of them *CUTLER: Yeah+ um, I, half the time I can’t even remember their names *STOW laughs+ just because there’s so many of us *CUTLER: Yeah+ and um, I’m probably one of less than ten who have actually gone to college. [CUTLER: Ok] So, I mean, and we all have the same opportunity [CUTLER: Mhmm] all being from the same tribe. So it, it you know it frustrates me that like, there are others who have the same opportunity but aren’t taking it and you know I have a cousin who’s, he graduated a year before me and failed out of the community college up north and actually has to um, he has to pay the tribe back, for all [CUTLER: Oh, wow; STOW: Wow] of his tuition fees because if you, you know, I mean the money does come through the tribe, but essentially it comes from the state of Michigan first [CUTLER: Yeah; STOW: Mhmm] and if you fail out of all of your classes, they shouldn’t have to keep giving you money *CUTLER: Yeah; STOW: Right+ but, I mean and he’s angry that he has to pay it all back but I mean, if you can’t keep the grades, and like, it’s even more sad, he took a guitar class and a ceramics class, and just like, classes that weren’t going to get him anywhere, he had no direction and he failed all of them! I mean, how do you fail a ceramics class [STOW: laughs] and guitar class when he plays the guitar already? *CUTLER: Yeah+ So, you know it’s just, it’s like I, in a sense I understand why some of the stereotypes are there and why people are angry, so, it’s, I almost, it makes me not be able to be mad either and not be able to be affected by it because, I mean, people think what they think because of what they see and obviously there’s not very good representation of things you know, going well and even, you know, in filling out, because I have to do all of my paperwork at the tribe, I have to go up there and get it all figured, filled out and like, set and everything like that and um, even there, like it’s, it’s almost sad how like proud they are and happy they are to have a tribal Page 9 �member going to school like I was kind of stunned by the way they were like, treating me and how excited they were for me just to be going to school and I just feel like it’s not, I mean, shouldn’t we all be going to school? [Laughs] You know, I mean, so um, in a sense, like, you know as unfortunate as no one should be discriminated against at all whatsoever but, there are reasons and you know I do understand why some of it is, why the negative stereotypes exist, because people continue to fuel them and, so... CUTLER: So, are you the first one of your siblings to go to, uh, to go to college? SKIPPERGOSH: Mhmm, uh my oldest brother did go to a trade school [CUTLER and STOW: Ok] so um, I mean that was, you know that’s as good as anything *CUTLER: Yeah+ he has, he does have a very good job, um, he is, actually I don’t really know how to word it, um he’s I guess the second supervisor of all maintenance at our tribe’s casino, so he oversees everything going on in the casino and in our resort as well [CUTLER: Ok] um he, at one point he owned his own plumbing business but, when the economy really started to fall it, you know, it wasn’t working out for him so that’s when he went to work for the tribe and um, he just actually over the summer got promoted to the position he’s in now um, but, um, my other older brother, again, like I’ve said it fuels the stereotype, he’s almost thirty five years old and doesn’t have it together, he doesn’t have a high school education either, he never graduated, so, um, uhhh it’s, it’s, it’s kind of almost, I feel like it, in a way it’s backwards from what most families are like just in general because usually it’s the kids are the first to go to college *CUTLER: Yeah] I mean my dad you know, has a good education and he has two different licenses from a trade school and um, he’s only, he works with the city of Wyoming, there are only three guys who have this license who work for the city so actually there’s only two now because one of them retired so my dad’s only one of two who is actually qualified to do any of the signal work [CUTLER: Ok] um, and the stuff that he does out there and um, I mean there’s a lot, a lot to know *CUTLER: Yeah+ so it’s like it’s, um, there’s a lot of, I think it’s physics and stuff that are involved and you know, a lot of math and all that stuff so, but um, yeah so I mean it really became a big deal for me to go to college and so, um, I feel like it, I’m sure my little brother will too because I’ve set the bar kind of high *Laughs+ for him so if he doesn’t um, I’m sure that’ll be an even bigger deal *CUTLER: Yeah+ but he’s, he’s an incredibly smart kid anyways, so hopefully! [Laughs] STOW: So why is it do you think that so many people don’t take advantage of the opportunity? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I really, I don’t, I have no idea, I mean...I don’t know how you couldn’t really, um, I can’t imagine passing it up, I don’t know how, like what there could be to justify *CUTLER: Yeah+ not, I mean you can go to any school in the state of Michigan whether it be the smallest community college, the smallest trade school or the absolute biggest university. Um, there’s no limit to it, you just have to be a full time enrolled student, um, you can go back to school with it, um so I’m really not sure why people don’t just take the opportunity especially I mean with the economy today you have to have a degree *CUTLER: Yeah; STOW: Mhmm+ to do anything even, you know there are a lot of things like I’m going into psychology and I know that a bachelor’s in psychology does not mean anything anymore so I’m already you know, prepared to go get my Master’s if not higher like there’s no question about it but um, I mean, there aren’t, there really aren’t any like loop holes that could hold people back um, all of the tribes as far as I know offer scholarships so you can, you know, if you wanna go away to school you can have at least some money towards housing, it may not be everything but I mean, you can still take Page 10 �out loans like everyone else who goes to school *Laughs+ I mean it’s, it’s just one of those things where I just, I really can’t come up with a logical reason why, I mean everything’s there for you all I have to do for my stuff and I mean, it could be a little different for other tribes but I literally have to sign my name on a piece of paper. Every, I think it’s every school year I have to resign but, um, that’s about all I have to do. I have to put my birth date and my social security number and my address...um, and then I just, I have to get, Grand Valley has to send a transcript now every semester like obviously after your first semester of going you have to have a transcript sent up there and a, um, schedule for the semester, for each semester and it’s just so they can, they have proof that you are going to school for at least, you know, at least twelve credits or whatever it is at you know, other universities but I mean, it’s not hard I, I hand a form to Grand Valley and they take care of it, the registrar’s office, because it has to be officially sealed and signed by a register but, I mean, all I have to do is give it to them with my information on it and it’s, it’s just like it’s stupid easy *Laughs+ is the problem like it is stupid easy and people still don’t do it and I feel like it’s very frustrating for, you know for me as well because I don’t, I don’t, I can’t see why someone wouldn’t take the opportunity and you know and then they don’t take the opportunity and they don’t have work and they can’t, you know, I mean I can’t imagine anyone finding a job you know if you don’t have some sort of education because I think now even at McDonald’s you have to, you have to either be enrolled in high school or have a GED or diploma to work there so, there’s nothing that people can do anymore [CUTLER: Yeah] and why you would want to not go about it, I mean, do you guys have a better idea? *Laughs+ I’d love to know, but I, I can’t come up with anything and so...yeah. CUTLER: So, so where do you hope to work after you complete your schooling? SKIPPERGOSH: Um...I’d like to work in a children’s hospital. *CUTLER: Ok+ Um, like with the children and their families as a counselor um, I don’t have anywhere specific um, I mean I, I’ve grown up in Grand Rapids and like I don’t know if you guys are from the area...? *CUTLER: Uh, I’m not+ No? Um, well, I mean I didn’t even really know this until recently but Grand Rapids is, is the second largest city in Michigan *CUTLER: Yeah, yeah+ um but I’ve always felt like Grand Rapids is small, maybe it’s just from growing up here *Laughs+ um, so, I don’t know how I’d feel about being somewhere too much smaller, um, but, I’d like to feel open about it, I used to be very like, close minded, like didn’t really wanna leave too much but just as long as I’m in like a children’s hospital and you know, wherever the opportunities are I guess that’s where I’ll go and, so, I mean it also depends on where I’m at in my life at that point too, whether, you know like, married or what not [STOW: Right] but I mean, so, yeah just wherever it takes me I guess, wherever the opportunities are! [Laughs] [CUTLER: Alright] Mhmm. [Brief pause] STOW: Um, so, you said before, is most of your family, they’re all in the state of Michigan? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, there are a couple who aren’t, um it was actually after my grandma passed away, some of the older ones moved out of state, uh, my oldest aunt and my two...no...my oldest aunt and then, it was not the oldest uncle because there are only two girls but the next two uncles, they left the state and then my oldest uncle stayed to make sure everything was ok with um, my dad and the younger ones who were in foster care. Um, but they started in Chicago, and that’s where one of them stayed and so that’s where um... *Interruption of people walking through our room into a meeting room next door] Page 11 �Um, so...what was I saying...oh, um [CUTLER: About Chicago?] yeah, so one of them stayed in Chicago and that’s where he um, was married and like raised his family and so a lot of my cousins still live there, they’re mostly older though, they’re actually the oldest cousins, they’re in their early forties now, so it’s a very big age span too, um, but um, and then there are two of them now, one of my aunts and my uncles are in Arizona [CUTLER: Ok] so, um yeah and then the rest are here in Michigan. One of my uncles, it’s actually the oldest uncle, he never left Charlevoix, um, he went into the Navy for a while but always ended up back there, um, my dad is actually...he is, it’s kind of an ongoing debate/decision right now because the city’s making a lot of changes and my dad has enough years with the city to retire *CUTLER: Ok+ um, so he may do that and go back to the company he started working at because he’s only had like I guess two real jobs since he’s gotten his licenses, and um, so he may go back and work for them because they’re a contract company um, and he might just retire and then he wants to wait until my brother graduates, which is only four more years, and then he wants to move back to Charlevoix *CUTLER: Oh, ok+ so um, he doesn’t, I guess, I mean he’s become accustomed to the city, he’s been living in Grand Rapids for probably thirty years now, right around there but, he um, he doesn’t call Grand Rapids home, he still calls Charlevoix home *CUTLER: Ok+ so, he wants to go back up there and that’s where, um I guess, I don’t know if you guys know Northern Michigan very well but Boyne City is right next to Charlevoix *STOW: Mhmm+ and that’s where my oldest brother and his wife and kids live so, my dad is kind of at that point in his life, I mean he’s gonna be fifty six next week so he’s kind of like into that grandpa thing, you know, having the grandkids, like it’s a bigger deal than us now you know, he’s moved on from the whole kids business [laughs] so um, he really just wants to get back up there so... CUTLER: And is that in Northern Michigan or is that in the U.P.? SKIPPERGOSH: Nope, it’s in Northern Michigan *CUTLER: Northern Michigan+ um, it’s about, um, around an hour from the bridge. *CUTLER: Ok+ So...mhmm yup it’s really really nice up there *CUTLER: Ok+ so I guess I’m guessing neither of you have been up there? *CUTLER: No... STOW: I have!+ Oh, you have? *STOW: Yeah, mhmm!+ Oh ok, um, but yeah, it’s I mean they’re all smaller towns but they’re very, very touristy. [CUTLER: Oh, ok] STOW: So if you were to move out of Michigan like after college how would that effect your tribal situation? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, it wouldn’t effect...no, the only thing um, I guess the only like, restriction is when you’re in college, um, unless I can come up with an incredibly good reason and pitch it to the board why I would need to go out of schoo--out of state for school, otherwise I would have to stay in state in order to get, um, the like scholarship money and stuff and the tuition money, but otherwise there are really no limits to most of it. The biggest benefits are in um, like if you live up or near the reservation that’s where like the tax waivers and stuff like that come into effect, but um, there just aren’t very many opportunities anyways in Northern Michigan right now. So they’ve–my sister-in-law works in the hospital up there and um if I were to work up there I would get more money...like my income would be higher per year, but the opportunities anyways are limited, they’ve made major cuts to their hospitals and they don’t even have um like a nice anymore, if they’re you know, like the newborns when there are problems they have to– Page 12 �they’ll helicopter them to traverse so I mean they’ve cut just about everything they can, so, there just isn’t too much to do up there otherwise I might consider you know, toughing it out, getting used to like a smaller area but, otherwise I mean, like there are some things that, like i guess if I went to med school and became a doctor I could work for the tribe, like we have our own tribal doctors and um, there’s a dentist and all of that but otherwise I mean might as well go where life takes me [Laughter] so... STOW: Um, have you traveled much outside of Michigan? SKIPPERGOSH: Um...I mean I’ve been to like Florida a few times, I’ve been to Washington DC, I’ve been to Missouri a few times um and...I mean I’ve been out of the country just only a handful of times I’ve been to um, I’ve been to Canada quite a few times but that’s not a really *Laughter+ that big of a trip um, and then I’ve also been to the Dominican Republic once...um, yea that’s about it. STOW: So did you experience any sort of discrimination when you traveled or anything? SKIPPERGOSH: Um...no I feel like not very many people know that I’m Native American um, a lot of times if i have to go somewhere like going out of the country you need two like two picture ids besides your passport so getting into the dominican I did have trouble because usually I give them my licensee and tribal ID because I mean my tribal ID is probably my second best like legal document but um, in the Dominican they didn't know what it was i guess they didn’t really understand it so I had to give them my school id instead, um so that was kind of interesting but otherwise i think there are quite a few indians in canada so um they’ve never really questioned it i mean I guess getting in and out of Canada isn’t that big of a deal anyways I don’t know if either of you have been but... CUTLER: Yea only once. SKIPPERGOSH: Okay, I mean it’s not a huge deal...um I don’t know if it’s helped but when I’ve gone I went with my boyfriend and he’s from Mackinac City so and um his dad is actually a retired state cop and FBI agent, so they’ll ask him why he lives in Mackinac and he’ll say it’s because his dad retires from the state police and usually that’s all they need to know *Laughter+. But yea um, I don’t think that many people like with my dad he looks very very Indian, I know there’s something on here about pictures I’m sure I could get you guys pictures if you wanted like pictures of some of our family um, my dad and like my aunts and uncles look very Indian but I don’t think I do too much most people don't know um I’ve actually I’ve only had one person that I can recall tell me that I look Indian which I was very shocked, I was like “oh my gosh, you...you noticed that!” so, um, yea the discrimination isn’t too bad, I’m sure if I went out to South Dakota or something like that it would be much different because it’s a whole other world out there when it comes to like the Indian reservations and stuff so... STOW: Um, do you have any experiences with other people like within your family that were being discriminated against? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, well, I guess something more recent, I did wanna make sure that I talked about this too um...within the last I wanna say like may around 10 years ago not long after my dad started working for the city of Wyoming um, he did run into, I guess you could say, a major discrimination problem. Page 13 �CUTLER: Okay. SKIPPERGOSH: He ended up suing the city of Wyoming and um, like now, the way everything works, in order to get a civil rights case, like to actually sue someone for discrimination, it has to be approved by the sate government, like the governor and everyone actually has to actually approve it, it has to be voted on like through whatever there um, and he was able to come up with a civil rights lawsuit. CUTLER: So he got all that passed? SKIPPERGOSH: Yep, he got everything approved. What had happened was, um...I guess they way they hire like in his department in the city is very much there’s no...no matter how long you’ve worked, you know, as an electrician everyone or whatever, it doesn’t matter, everyone starts at step one and there are three like levels of...I guess like it, you know, it has to do with like pay too, you get paid more as you move up but you also like every year my dad has to go take like more classes and they have to, you know, with a trade school like with a licensee it’s very similar to like a teacher’s license with how they have to renew it every so many years, they have to go take, you know, a couple classes and stuff and so he has to do that every know and then. Well, they hired another guy in who was just coming out of trade school and um, my dad was already like, you know, had already moved up in rank well they put him at the same level as my dad. And um, I know there were other issues with the discrimination thing and um you know, he tried to just bring it to the city and you know, my dad is a very civil guy, he’s not gonna trow a big fit about it or anything but you know, he tried to respectfully ring it in and say “this isn’t ok, I had to start here, no one else should be able to start at the same level, at the same pay” and it’s an understandable argument obviously. And they denied his request so he got a lawyer and um, they came up with, you know, how it could be a civl rights case and you know, it had to be approved by the state and it was and he ended up winning against the city and um so, that was...I don’t remember too much, I was younger, I do remember him having a lawyer and um, having to go to court and stuff for it but, um, I guess I didn’t really know the extent to it but yea um, he did win the case against the city and so it was kind of a big deal and the guy had to be moved back down and my dad still doesn't like the guy *Laughter+ but that’s for other reasons too. Um, I guess, you know, I mean it wasn't fair just in general for it to happen so um, yea, that was probably one of the most significant things that I mean, it was only a few years after he started working for the city and he’s only been working there for fifteen years so it was very recent. CUTLER: So was that a really big deal throughout the city and stuff, the case? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I’m not too sure, I mean I’m sure in the sense that, you know, the like extent to which you have to like work to get a civli rights case, I mean that’s big in general so just ot have that against the city is a big deal and um, I mean to win it, you know it’s..like I know my dad, you know like because of that was slightly promoted but he didn’t take any money for it or anything like he didn't...it really had nothing to do with making money or profiting off of like winning this case or annoying like that but um, you know he..., um, you know he...um Someone enters room and interrupts interview. Page 14 �SKIPPERGOSH: Yea I mean the lawsuit the lawsuit wasn’t about like gaining money off it, he just wanted the respect and recognition that he deserved for what he had worked for. STOW: Um, so okay, you said that you’re a junior, right? SKIPPERGOSH: Mhmm. STOW: So, do you think that your experience at grand valley has been influenced at all by your background or any of those experience that you were talking about? Or how would you describe it in general I guess? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I mean I definitely like being at Grand Valley, um it was...I really wasn't sure where I was going to go to school originally like it was between here and state and Western and I’m really not sure why I chose Grand Valley but I did and I guess I...I guess I really liked the opportunities that I had in general I mean its very, there’s not a whole lot of diversity but there are, like they promote different things. Like actually this month is actually um, I’m not sure of the politically correct term for it but it’s like Native American history month or whatever it is um, so, they have like a lot of speakers coming to Grand Valley for it and there is like a Native American student organization or something but I’ve never actually been...I’ve found a lot of people to be very interested like especially professors and um, stuff like that um, I’ve learned a lot in a lot of my classes, like I was really surprised by the things I've learned like from my professors too about the Native American history and even in my sociology class right now it’s just an intro class but I’ve learned a lot of things that I never knew and my professor's like a really big advocate for minorities and you know for him its like a really big deal and um, so it’s been really very interesting like learning a lot of this stuff and um I definitely like that there are a lot of different cultures here, and I don’t feel like i stand out or anything I mean I don't fell like most people know that I’m Native American anyways but um, I think it’s just like, its a conversation starter, like I’ve met a lot of people who have never met someone who is Native American and are like incredibly shocked and surprised. I’ve also met um, he was an international student and he was I guess technically studying abroad for international business um from Spain and um, he did not believe at first that I was Native American, he did not think it was possible. In Spain they learn that there are no more Native Americans in the world, they are completely like, an extinct race. CUTLER AND ST OW: Wow. SKIPPERGOSH: Um so, yea it was, it was very like, moving to know that that’s what other countries teach and I mean it took a lot of convincing and like he originally took it as a joke when I told him that I was Native American and I really didn't understand that either and he kept telling me that it wasn't possible it wasn't possible, and so yea, I mean it was, that was different it was very very different, I mean like I knew that other countries teach their history different because it’s based more on their own history but I really really was very surprised that I mean they have no idea that Native Americans exist anymore and like it is a dying race, there are less than 2 million in the entire world like actual like I guess North American Native Americans, but yea, um I found that very interesting, so there are a lot of things we learn here [Laughter]. Page 15 �STOW: Um, so were you ever involved with anything, I guess, before college like with Native...besides your tribe, with anything along those lines? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, no not really um, I mean I’ve always wanted to do more with the tribe essentially. There’s actually, they have a class but it’s only taught up there um, but it’s to learn the native language which I think that would be incredibly fascinating um because its a very difficult language to learn and it’s not...I don’t know of any schools that teach it like any universities or anything like that and my family doesn't...one of my aunts knows it a little bit and um her husband knows it quite well he’s actually um, well he's now technically retired but he’s a native pastor so he knows a lot of prayers and stuff and he does um, like he’s done all of our, like he’s married all of our cousins and um you know weddings and funerals, he always does all of that, and he says like a lot of native prayers and stuff so that’s really interesting. But um, my dad doesn’t...he used to know the language, I guess my grandparents used to speak it a lot and like my grandpa and my uncles spoke it all the time I guess my great uncles, I guess my dad only knew it through hearing it, he didn't really know it besides that and he’s lost it all by know. I don’t really know too much going on, I mean this project is actual first thing I’ve been really involved in, um, so yea, because Melanie approached me about it last year when it was...they were just like talking about it and coming up with what to do for the project, so, you know, I was kind of excited to have the opportunity to finally like talk about it and I mean I don’t know if I have really too many interesting things but you know, I mean it’s kind of cool to finally be involved in something. STOW: Um, so some of the things that you were talking about like with your dad’s lawsuit and all of that, did any of that kind of shape how you viewed yourself, like when you were younger were you really aware of your heritage? SKIPPERGOSH: I guess the first time I really became aware of um, like almost being a minority and like how, I don’t know if I would say how different I was, but like it was um, we did a third grade project and I remember it so specifically, but it was like, it was when we were learning about like cultures and origins and stuff and stuff like that and we each you know, especially people who were in all–just a little bit of everything around the world, you had to pick one that you were most likely to identify with and we got these little printed out pictures and it was someone dressed like, like that, whether it would be German or Polish, or Chinese, or Native American so they were dressed in what you would almost–not stereotypical but I guess like the ancient or old or very cultural way. So we were each to like color them and decorate them and, you know, they had our names on them and they would hang in the hall and it was to show how we were all like diverse and we were all from different places and I was the only Native American. So it was, like I remember there was like a small part of me not wanting to be the different one because of course in third grade your like ten years old and no one wants to be different. So I kind of struggled with that and I remember my dad like kind of, talking me through it, like this is who you are and you know you can hide it or you can just be who you are and so I choose to just be who i was, and I remember like most people just colored theirs in and um, my dad’s always, you know, been like big into our educations and stuff and so we took one of his old old leather coats and we cut like a piece of it out and we put the leather on there like on the girl’s Indian dress that she had on and I put like real feathers on top on her little headband, so yea that was like the first time that I had actually like realized that I was different from everyone else and that I wasn’t the same because I mean I’d always Page 16 �known you know, like I could recognize myself even then people who were like African-American or Asian but I didn't exactly see myself as different then, so, that was the first time where it was like eyeopening especially at a young age and it was hard to deal with for a minute, you know, I mean, being different isn’t, like I said, you know, I’m sure we all remember it’s not fun being different at that age, but, it was, it was an interesting experience, I still remember it so specifically, so...yea. If you guys have any other questions that aren’t on here feel free to ask anything, I mean I’m pretty open about whatever. STOW: Um, I’m trying to think. Um, CUTLER, do you have anything else? CUTLER: No, I don’t really have anything else. STOW: I think we’re probably good. CUTLER: No, I don’t really have anything else. STOW: I think we’re probably good. CUTLER: Yea, I think so. SKIPPERGOSH: I mean, if you guys feel like you have enough to use to write your paper, is that what you were–do you just have to write the paper? STOW: Yea, we’re just transcribing it and then we just have to do a short presentation. Oh ok, so, I mean, if you feel like you have enough for it, if there’s anything else, I mean you could always email me and...if there’s anything else then, um yea that’s about it. My last name is Native American so, that too. I don’t know if that’s interesting, but people ask that all the time *Laughter+. STOW: I think that was really good though. CUTLER: Yea, thank you very much! SKIPPERGOSH: Yea no problem, I’m glad I could help you guys and sorry I wasn’t getting back to your emails very quickly, I was–I’ve been so busy lately and I’ve been trying to talk to Melanie too and get back to everyone so... STOW: Oh, that’s fine. SKIPPERGOSH: Well good luck transcribing it! CUTLER: Thank you! STOW: Thanks! END OF INTERVIEW Page 17 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/27101735b8e430db2cfd00c3e1fda3b9.mp3 bc8730775b653d3fc6a962432ff90e64 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Skippergosh_Kristine_1 Title A name given to the resource Kristine Skippergosh audio interview 1 and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Skippergosh, Kristine Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cutler, Adam Miller, Michael Stow, Rebecca Description An account of the resource Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties her father faced regarding race in his early years, as well as some of her own challenges. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination against Indians of North America Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives