1 24 44 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/882edba04cf82be7861f8dc2046c7293.pdf fb332636d8bcdc25170e1ad5e7d8f3da PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Steeve Buckridge Interviewers: Kevin Fraser, Erica Judd and Travis Pemberton Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/27/2011 Biography and Description Steeve Buckridge was born in Kingston, Jamaica. He became a professor at Grand Valley State University several years ago. He is an Associate Professor of African and Caribbean History and Associate Faculty in African and African American Studies. Also this year he became GVSU’s Director of Area Studies. In 2004, he published his first novel, The Language of Dress: Resistance and Accommodation in Jamaica, 1780-1890. This book discusses how freed and enslaved women used their fashion and style of dress as a symbol of resistance to slavery and accommodation to white culture in pre- and post- emancipation society. He discusses the differences between discrimination in Jamaica and discrimination in Grand Rapids and some of his experiences with it. Transcript JUDD: To start out, just want some basic information like, just something about yourself; where you were born, what your life was like growing up BUCKRIDGE: Hmm, alright so JUDD: Full name and everything BUCKRIDGE: (Heavy accent) My name is Steeve Buckridge, I never reveal my middle name so sorry JUDD: (slight laughter) That’s alright BUCKRIDGE: And I was born in Kingston, Jamaica. Andgrew up in Jamaica. At age eleven I went to boarding school in the center of the island in a place called Mandeval up in the mountains. It was a very beautiful school; an old English school and I liked it there and I would go home on holidays and weekends. And my childhood in Jamaica was idealic it was fun it was great.holidays, travelling, visiting family; hmmm I was not from a poor home so Iwas very fortunate that my parents provided for us. And I did well in school, I was an A student and enjoyed my school years and then studying in Jamaica is, we follow the British system at least in those days, so education was and still is very very rigid, very hierarchical,its very competitive and then I find that European people tend to take education for granted JUDD: (supportive) Right Page 1 �BUCKRIDGE: It’s not like that in all the places, so to get into high school you had to pass an exam, it was a government exam. When you get into high school then they streamline you, the brightest students and in the brightest are given a different set of courses then those who are not too bright. and then I did all of that and then up to fifth form, did my O levels, passed my O levels; in high school these are government exams.and O levels are important because they determine if you can get a job or not. If you fail your O levels you can’t get a job you have to do them over. It’s not like here where you just get a diploma from school it doesn’t work like that JUDD: (laughter) Right BUCKRIDGE: For us you must pass certain subjects for you to get a job, math and English is usually required and after you pass those then you can apply for a job and if you want to go on to university then you have to apply for A levels, which is like thirteenth and fourteenth grade which you guys don’t have in this country JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: Or twelfth and thirteenth grade something like that. So in that level you’re doing pre university courses and you spend two years in that program in high school and so when I was in, it’s called six form, so when I was in six form I did very well I was head of student government, I was also head boy. Head boy is this British concept defined in British schools where there is a head boy and a head girl that’s in charge of the prefects, prefects are those who maintain discipline JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: And so the head boy islike the most, it is considered to be the I don’t know how to describe this because it’s so different then what you have in America JUDD: (laughter) Right BUCKRIDGE: Is the most,ugh, the head boys influential the head boy is important the head boy is someone who’s chosen because of his academic excellence and performance JUDD: So were you chosen? Or nominated? BUCKRIDGE: No you are chosen by the faculty JUDD: Wow BUCKRIDGE: By the student by the faculty by the student, not the student, by the by the school faculty JUDD: (supportive) Okay BUCKRIDGE: So it’s an honor to be a head boy JUDD: (Supportive) Yeah BUCKRIDGE: And so every year there’s a head boy there’s a head girl, and then you have prefects and then you havethe prefects are in charge of discipline within the school and they work closely with the Page 2 �teachers to maintain discipline.and so then in six form you do pre university courses so for us in the British system when you go on to university you only spend three years in university, because you have already done JUDD: Right, your others, got it BUCKRIDGE: Right, in high school, yep. I don’t know what else to tell you; I mean I dabbled a lot as a youngster, my parents believed in taking us travellingI don’t know what else to tell you. JUDD: No that’s okay that’s a lot of good information, so how would you describe your personal identity? It’s kind of a tough question BUCKRIDGE: My personal identity in terms of my race? JUDD: Well just how you would personally describe yourself, like what is, how are you different, yeah I guess your diversity I guess BUCKRIDGE: Well race is structured differently for us so, but in Jamaica most Jamaicans are dark skin or black, and then you have a small percentage which are my color which you would call, in the Caribbean they would call it just brown skin or light skin, or Mulattos. I consider myself first and foremost to be a Jamaican JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: Because for us nationality is more important, race is secondary JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: So I’m Jamaican, I’m preferred to be Jamaicanmy father was English, my mother is Jamaican mixed with dark skin. And as a child growing up diversity was an integral part of my life I mean as a child I was surrounded by Indians from India, my father’s best friend was from India, his family was from India so as a child I was already familiar with Hindu rituals and Hindu holidays. For instance right now it’s Diwali, the festival of lights has been celebrated by Indians and that’s a major festival, it’s the whole notion of when good triumphs over evil. my grandmother’s first husband was Chinese; there is a Chinese community in Jamaica like an Indian community. So my grandmother’s first husband was Chinese and he died while on a journey back to Hong Kong. So after he died she had her first set of kids with him and sent them to Hong Kong to grow up, so they were raised in China. So again as a youngster; and then she met my grandfather Buckridge and then got married a second time, so as a child I had Chinese uncles who spoke Chinese their marriages were pre-arranged JUDD: Is your grandmother Jamaican then? BUCKRIDGE: My grandmother is of English descent JUDD: Oh okay yeah BUCKRIDGE: Jamaican but of English descent Page 3 �JUDD: Okay, okay so you kind of grew up in a diverse area okay well, so was there any time in your life growing up or in adulthood where you could of felt mistreated because of BUCKRIDGE: My race? JUDD: Yeah BUCKRIDGE: No JUDD: No? Hmm BUCKRIDGE: In fact, in the Jamaican context racial lines also follow class lines, so you find that people who are lighter in complexion like I am would be considered as upper class so I never had those issues. I did not understand racism until I came into this country JUDD: When did you come to America? BUCKRIDGE: Officially I don’t know, well I used to travel back and forth as a youngster but officially moved here in the early eighty’s JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: Eighty six I think somewhere in there. Now that doesn’t mean we don’t have racism in Jamaica and the Caribbean we do but it’s, as I said race is defined as differently for us JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: But again, you see in the Caribbean contextfor instance in Jamaica we only have very few numbers, very few numbers of white Jamaicans so the numbers too small to have an economic impact JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: So the society overall is dominated by people who are light skinned or brown skinned and they make up about I don’t know maybe twelve percent of the population, maybe less. The vast majority of Jamaicans are black or dark skinned. JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: So in my country I would not be classified as black JUDD: Oh okay, so when you moved here did it feel, did people treat you differently, did it feel harder? BUCKRIDGE: No not really because they see me more as I don’t know JUDD: Did you come here as a professor? BUCKRIDGE: Mmn, I came here I studied here I did some of my studies here. But no I it was more out of curiosity JUDD: Mhmm Page 4 �BUCKRIDGE: Because I had an accent, foreigner, I didn’t have the kinds of experiences that African Americans had in this country and what they endured, that’s not a part of my reality, I didn’t come from a family where I saw that sort of thing. Now maybe my mother’s generation they would of encountered racism in the colonial days JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: But in terms of my generation, no I didn’t have those problems. But when I came to the US I clearly saw racism, not necessarily happening to me but to my friends, colleagues. I have been racially profiled; in airports I have been harassed JUDD: Oh right BUCKRIDGE: Because people assume that I’m Middle Eastern which doesn’t make sense to me but that has happened to me yes. JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And that has happened to me right here in Grand Rapids where I have been harassed because they thought I was from Egypt or somewhere. But in my country, no I never had that, it was never an issue for me. JUDD: Okay, so I know I does kind of seem as you grew up as the higher or more comfortable or more acceptable over there which is good so it feels like kind of were more racially more just judge people a lot over here. And I kind of see that a lot from people who have moved from like where you’ve come from and like I know I have actually met a professor who is from South Africa and he came here and he said he was treated a lot differently now. Okay so when you have seen people who are discriminated because of the difference, how does that affect you? BUCKRIDGE: Of course, because I think it’s wrong, it’s wrong and if there’s a situation that I can step in to correct the wrong I will I see it with my students its wrong and I believe that someone should stand up for their rights and if you see other people being abused you should step up to the plate and do something about it JUDD: Is there an actual experience you can remember that you’re comfortable sharing? BUCKRIDGE:mmm JUDD: Put you on the spot BUCKRIDGE: No, I just can’t think of anything off the top of my head why yes I have had friends who have applied for jobs who were African American who were denied, or try to rent a place and were denied. JUDD: Yeah BUCKRIDGE: With the opportunity to rent but then I would go there and ask and I would be offered the place. Page 5 �JUDD: Okay, so it’s not so much for you as it is for the people you’ve seen BUCKRIDGE: Right, because right yeah so JUDD: Do you think it’s because they have darker skin then? BUCKRIDGE: In some cases I think so and some cases it’s because they’re African American JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: I am sort of this exotic person from Jamaica JUDD: (laughter) They are interested in you! BUCKRIDGE: Yes, from Jamaica I don’t have the same history and the same baggage some would say. JUDD: Right, right well that’s good,have you ever seen any violent treatment to people who have you ever witnessed or been a part of or something like that BUCKRIDGE: (negative response) Nmmnn Nmmnnn well not in this country, yeah but no, no JUDD: In your country have you? BUCKRIDGE: Well no I have seen violent situations in terms of civil unresting and political elections, and Jamaica has a history of having political turmoil. So I’ve seen people attacked but that’s because of their views or their ideological stands yeahnot because of their skin color. But we do have racism in the Caribbean, in fact it is badh it is bad because you have you see in my culture there is this belief that, that that if you want to make it in society you have to have brown complexion. So now you find these dark skinned people who are bleaching, bleaching has become popular with the youngsters and women, and you can tell if you go to public setting you can see that they have been bleaching because from here down its light and from the neck down it’s much darker. so bleaching has become a problemin many areas in the Caribbean in terms of people being attacked because of their race no. What you do find in Jamaica is that my culture is very, very homophobic. And people will be murdered for being gay and I have lost three friends who were murdered because they were homosexuals. So Jamaican society is very, very homophobic and that’s because of theh the hate rhetoric that’s spoken in the churches because in Jamaica, Jamaica is considered to be one of the most homophobic places in the Caribbean. So what you find happening is that the church, we do not have the separation of church and state, so you find that there is the Christianity is the official religion and Church of England is the official church. But the Evangelical Churches are the ones that are very dominant and so they are the ones that are sort of a hate speech about homosexuality and so forth and so there you will find people who have been murdered or have been killed for just being gay JUDD: Well, and that’s a I mean a big diversity issue here too, I mean everywhere really I feel like BUCKRIDGE: Yeah but here, yeah that’s right I mean there are people, Mathew Shepard was murdered for being gay. So people in this country have been murdered but we must also remember why that’s the case, you gay people in this country do have a public space Page 6 �JUDD: Yeah definitely BUCKRIDGE: In the Caribbean it’s not like that I mean in Jamaica its illegal, it’s ten years in prison met with hard labor JUDD: Oh my goodness BUCKRIDGE: Right, and normally the laws are not tested because if they catch you, nine out of the ten times they try to kill you, you have street justice. Homosexuality is viewed as an abomination and it is not socially accepted in Jamaican society. Now if you are elite and are gay then you can easily get away and always pay your way through the system but for poor young men it is horrifying because they are the ones who usually get beaten up sometimes they are killed. And once in a while you have some elite person who is killed for either for their activism or they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. And then young women who are alleged to be gay they’re usually raped alright because there is this notion that if they are raped then that will get them to JUDD: To forget it or kind of change back? BUCKRIDGE: Right, to change to dating men or to being with men, so Jamaican society is very homophobic, and you have for instance Jamaica, the Bahamas, St Vincent, the Guanines (unclear), all the English speaking Caribbean countries are very homophobic because they have those old British codes on their law books which decrees that homosexuality is illegal. And after homosexuality was made legal in England Britain tried to pressure their former colonies in the Caribbean to do the same, some of them eased up on the restrictions but Jamaica has refused, Jamaica is an independent nation so England can no longer tell us what to do, even though the Queen of England is head of statebut yeah but that is one of the major, major problems in terms of diversity issues JUDD: Well that’s a big discriminant issue too and how is that like, obviously its affected you personally because you said you lost three friends, so I mean that’s a big issue BUCKRIDGE: Right JUDD: It’s not just race BUCKRIDGE: Right but the whole though is that you’ll find that people will cover it up with a mass or the church and religion, and you have ministers who are preaching, there is a minister in Jamaica his name is Blair he’s advocating for public floggings of homosexualsso there is so in many quarters there’s no sympathy because it’s seen as immoral, as wrong, because of the strong religious flavor JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: Because again we do not have the separation of church and state and the biros association of Jamaica and the Jamaican government has made it very clear that they will never amend the constitution to make gay marriage legal or homosexuality legal in Jamaica JUDD: So growing up, where you familiar with that? Or was it more when you got older that you kind of understood Page 7 �BUCKRIDGE: When I was a child I knew people that were gay but I never really understood what it meant until as I got older JUDD: And you started to see it more? BUCKRIDGE: Well no, when I left Jamaica I started to pertuanate and started to wonder oh so that’s why so and so wasn’t married and why all the women and people would gossip and say things JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: But no it is bad, tourists going to Jamaica usually are warned and there is a travel ban for gay people travelling to Jamaica like Jamaica is a beautiful place but it’s not a friendly place for gay people, if your white and you’re going as a gay couple you are okay as long as you don’t show public affection being kissy kissy lovey dovey in public JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: That’s a no no JUDD: Well and still you’re not able to express how you really are feeling so it’s still its discriminative BUCKRIDGE: Right of course, but Jamaicans would consider it offensive they would see it as an insult to the culture JUDD: Right, so your personal views are different then the way that the views of the religion in Jamaica BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: So have you always, was your family always, is your family religious? BUCKRIDGE: Many of them yes, yeah, but again going back to what I said earlier I grew up with a lot of diversity JUDD: Right, true BUCKRIDGE: My upbringing was very different JUDD: Mhm BUCKRIDGE: So I was always surrounded by people in different cultures and so forth, and my family was in the fashion business so I knew people in the art world and in the art community, so I knew gay people from an early age JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: But my parents always taught us to be accepting of everyone, to be appreciative, to be open, to be tolerant, to be welcoming. And so that was the home I grew up in but that’s not the large Jamaican society JUDD: Right, Page 8 �BUCKRIDGE: You weren’t expecting that were you JUDD: (laughter) No, honestly I didn’t even know what to expect coming here I’ve never done one of these before BUCKRIDGE: And now you have a lot of information JUDD: Well, I do and that’s I mean, an oral history really though all she wants is just kind of basic information BUCKRIDGE: Yeahh JUDD: Which is good I’m glad that I didn’t know what to expect,okay well we kind of covered some of that. So actually, I heard you wrote a book BUCKRIDGE: Yes JUDD: The guy next door was telling me, he showed me your book too BUCKRIDGE: Oh okay JUDD: Do you want to tell me about that? BUCKRIDGE: Sure, the next one is coming out soon, what do you want to know about it? JUDD: Anything, tell me about it, I’ve never heard anything about it I just found out today you’ve wrote a book BUCKRIDGE: Oh that book is titled the Language Address and it’s about the African cultural characteristics in clothing that were brought to the Caribbean by African slaves. And so I basically analyzed slave clothing, and I try to figure out why they dress the way they did and the policy surrounding clothing during the days of slavery. and I got involved in it becauseI’ve always loved clothing and fashion, my father was a tailor, and my father studied at FIT in New York. And my mother was a dress maker and she sewed as a hobby, she’s a nurse by profession and so clothing was what I JUDD: Kind of what you were used to BUCKRIDGE: Right I grew up with it as a child, so I worked inin the fashion business for a while; I had my first modeling gig when I was sixteen JUDD: Oh you modeled? BUCKRIDGE: here, this photograph was, this is a newspaper article that they did on me, so this is when oh this says seventeen, I think it was maybe sixteen, I did photo shoots for the Jamaica Tourist Board. Then then I gave up modeling because I didn’t really like it JUDD: No? Page 9 �BUCKRIDGE: No I didn’t like it and then much, years later I got into the fashion business and started to work as an illustrator. So I would illustrate, draw, and then I left the industrywhile I was illustrating I worked for several fashion houses and thenI let’s see I had, I would design clothes for friends and so forth. Had some famous people wear some of my outfits because (unclear) Miss World, 1987 wore a gown that I designed,Miss Venezuela, 1989 also wore one of my outfits. But it was a long time ago I mean ages ago JUDD: Woww BUCKRIDGE: And then I gave that up, and then I decided to pursue academia but before that I was also working, I worked in hospitality I worked in hotels while I was going to school. And then I decided I wanted to do my doctorate and when I decided on that I wanted to combine my love of fashion with my PHD. So my studies, my doctorate is actually in, it’s in African history but my research is on fashion it’s on clothing JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: So even though I’m no longer in the industry I am still its still part of me in a way JUDD: Still associated with it, which I kind of cool because you’re kind of keeping a grip on your past which is cool BUCKRIDGE: And so my interest in diversity and cultures and clothing from around the world, this is one of the things that propelled me to travel a lot and to write and to be fascinated with diversity, I think diversity is so important to me I think its diversity that keeps the world going. I think diversity is essential for us to learn about each other, I think diversity is key to understanding who we areI would not want to live in a world where everyone thinks the same, looks the same, has the same beliefs, dresses the same can you imagine how boring that world would be JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: If you and I had the same Ideas, we think the same way JUDD: We wouldn’t need to do this interview BUCKRIDGE: Your parents think the same way, everybody felt and thought and looked the same, wouldn’t that be crazy JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: I wouldn’t want to be in that world JUDD: No I agree, is that kind of why you were interested in fashion you think? Because of, or maybe it was fashion that kind of shaped the way you think because it’s so unique BUCKRIDGE: I think fashion shaped the way I think and carry myself but also it’s an intrigal part of my culture, Jamaicans are fascinated with clothing and so as a child I saw that, we have rituals surrounding Page 10 �clothing, rituals about certain ways that you should dress all of those things are taken seriously in my culture JUDD: Woww BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: When was this book published? BUCKRIDGE: I don’t know 2005 I guess, somewhere in there and then the next one will be out shortly JUDD: What’s the next one, is it about the same kind of things? BUCKRIDGE: It’s about clothing but it’s a different, it’s looking at bark cloth or textiles made from the barks of trees and how how it would, these bark textiles are used to make sophisticated outfits JUDD: And do what you’re naming it or the title of your books going to be BUCKRIDGE: the next one, it’s titledthe making of African bark cloth, the making of African bark cloth in the Caribbean JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And I look at three countries, Jamaica, Cuba, and Haiti JUDD: Good thing nobody has to read my hand writing but me because I don’t know if that would be possible, okay,well that’s really cool. So have you always like wanted to write I guess is that kind of, have you always been interested in it, did you know that you were going to end up writing a book or is this kind of just BUCKRIDGE: Hmm I think at some point, in time I’m hoping to do some short stories and I’m thinking of writing some other things yeah JUDD: All to do with clothing and stuff BUCKRIDGE: Maybe yeah, or other things, we’ll see I haven’t decided yet JUDD: Yeah well that’s cool BUCKRIDGE: I’m working on a memoir JUDD: Really? BUCKRIDGE: Yeah, so we’ll see how that goes. It’s about more of my travels in Africa, that’s what it’s about JUDD: Okay, how many times have you been, or is it too many to South Africa BUCKRIDGE: No, I’ve been to about twenty five countries in Africa JUDD: Ohh Page 11 �BUCKRIDGE: And worldwide about seventy two countries JUDD: Wow, did you always travel to different countries when you were growing up; you said your parents liked to travel BUCKRIDGE: As a youngster yes, by the time I was what, eighteen, somewhere in there I had seen most of the Caribbean but a lot of my travelling was done after because I’ve always had this desire to see what’s beyond the ocean you’re looking out at the horizon and saying what is out there JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: And so the moment I could travel on my own I did, I mean as a child I would come for holidays to the US and other places but travelling is my passion it’s how you learn it’s how you learn about cultures and I try never to travel as a tourist I try to travel as an adventurer who tries to immerse oneself in the local cultures. Because when you travel as a tourist you’ll always be an outsider JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: You’ll always be on the periphery JUDD: Okay from growing up has there been any, sorry were kind of jumping backwards now but has there been any changes in like, I guess I’m not going to go with diverse race wise but like with homosexuality, has that changed at all over time has that become more lenient as you were living there or less lenient or, in Jamaica with diversity or discrimination against homosexuality because that’s kind of a big thing BUCKRIDGE: Okay no people in, Jamaicans celebrate diversity JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And they love diversity, we have Chinese in Jamaica, we have Indians JUDD: With race, so they are very racially diverse BUCKRIDGE: Right, diverse, our motto is out of many one people JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: Which reflects the blending and the mixture and we had people, we have Syrians who were brought in we have Lebanese we have Chinese we have Indians but the bulk of Jamaicans are of African descent. We also have people of English descent of Irish descent and Scottish descent but most Jamaicans are black, of African descent. and then you haveh, and then you have this group of people who are brown skin or browning as that’s what they’re calling it’s a term now in popular culture. But when it comes on to sexuality it’s a different thing JUDD: Okay so is it just because of the church or BUCKRIDGE: Yes Page 12 �JUDD: Okay so it’s the religion, so that’s never changed over time it’s always just been BUCKRIDGE: Some of it has gotten worse JUDD: Oh it has gotten worse BUCKRIDGE: But racial diversity is not, is something that’s celebrated; there has never been that problem in Jamaica where so well maybe in the colonial days but not now. Jamaica when it comes to racial diversity is very welcoming and tolerant, sexual diversity, that’s not the case JUDD: Mkay, so what colleges did you attend to, here and there BUCKRIDGE: in terms of studying or teaching at? JUDD: Both BUCKRIDGE: Okay,I did my undergrad and master’s degree in Miami, University of Miami. My doctorate, I spent a year in England at Oxford and then I did my PHD at the Ohio State University in Ohio, Columbus Ohio. THE Ohio State JUDD: (laughter) Oh no BUCKRIDGE: I know you’re a Michigan fan ehh JUDD: (laughter) I am Michigan fan BUCKRIDGE: Sorry JUDD: (laughter) That’s alright, I have Ohio State friends so I’m neutral BUCKRIDGE: Good JUDD: and then how did you end up here? BUCKRIDGE: My job, I’ve, people always ask me that because I’ve lived in so many places and travelled a lot I lived in several countries. But my job, the university recruited me to come hereI love my job I love my students I love being at Grand Valley, I have problems with Grand Rapids JUDD: With? BUCKRIDGE: The city, I haven’t quite connected with it so I leave regularly JUDD: How often? BUCKRIDGE: Of often as I can JUDD: For breaks and BUCKRIDGE: Yeah holidays, summers, long weekends JUDD: What is it about Grand Rapids that Page 13 �BUCKRIDGE: I don’t know, there’s just no sense of belonging JUDD: Oh yeah? BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: Well I’m not used to this city, so it’s been kind of a new step for me too but I mean I guess you’ve been everywhere so BUCKRIDGE: Yeah there’s no sense of belonging for me, I still feel as an outsider, I haven’t been here all these years, so I don’t have a house here I refuse to buy anything here JUDD: Really? Where do you stay? BUCKRIDGE: Well I have an apartment here but my place is in Miami JUDD: Ohh BUCKRIDGE: This is not my home, this is where I work, home is Miami and Jamaica is home home. So if I say I’m going home it means I’m going home to Miami, my place is in Miami JUDD: Do you go back to Miami a lot? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm JUDD: Do you go like weekends and stuff? BUCKRIDGE: Sometimes JUDD: Mostly over breaks? BUCKRIDGE: But breaks, and then between like summers I’m in Africa moving around then if I say I’m going home home that’s to Jamaica, like I’m going to Jamaica the end of November JUDD: What’s the occasion? BUCKRIDGE: Just need to get away JUDD: I gotcha BUCKRIDGE: Yeah, I think I’m going for three days JUDD: Wow, that’s a short trip BUCKRIDGE: I know, yeah JUDD: Do your parents still live there then? BUCKRIDGE: My father died when I was sixteen JUDD: Oh I’m sorry Page 14 �BUCKRIDGE: My mother, that’s fine thanks, my mother she lives in Miami, she travels a lot JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And my family is scattered JUDD: Do you have any brothers and sisters? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm, there’s seven of us and they’re all in different countries JUDD: Really? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm JUDD: Where are they? BUCKRIDGE: England, Canada, one just came back from Japan he’s currently in in what is it Atlanta. I forget, they’re always on the go, Jamaica I don’t have much family left in Jamaica we still have property there but not JUDD: Okay so do you go back to your property or do you stay with friends or BUCKRIDGE: When I’m in Jamaica? JUDD: When you go to Jamaica BUCKRIDGE: No I stay with family JUDD: Oh okay BUCKRIDGE: The few family I have left, I have an aunt there and some cousins, that’s about it JUDD: So tell me about your siblings BUCKRIDGE: In terms of what they’re doing? JUDD: Yeah, or what your home life was like growing up with them, were you close with them BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm, were a close knit family, we were very very close, extremely close, we all get along well we try to get together as often as we can, doesn’t always work. My niece got married recently and we were all at her wedding, see that photograph over there the young lady in the green to the right JUDD: Oh yeahhh BUCKRIDGE: She just got married, she married to a Nigerian and that was the wedding and she just changed over into African dress, she lives in London. My brother is in England so that was the first in a long time that we all got together because we were all at the wedding JUDD: When was that? BUCKRIDGE: This was this summer,in June, June 25thso I don’t know what to tell you um Page 15 �JUDD: Well how many sisters and brothers? BUCKRIDGE: Okay, four boys including myself, and three girls JUDD: Where do you stand in that? BUCKRIDGE: I’m in the middle JUDD: Okay, number? What number are you BUCKRIDGE:h fourth JUDD: Okay fourth, do you admire your brothers? Were they big role models? Are they older then how does it go? BUCKRIDGE: One younger and then the others are older JUDD: Brother? BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: And then are the girls mostly younger then? BUCKRIDGE: One younger the others are older JUDD: Ohhh okay I guess you are fourth so that makes sense,I don’t know, what did you guys do? BUCKRIDGE: Oh okay,h what do they do? JUDD: Mhm BUCKRIDGE: Career wise? JUDD: Yeah sure BUCKRIDGE: One is a lawyer, he’s a barrister our family has several lawyers. he’s a barrister in England, one is an accountant, a financial accountant he has his own firmhe lives in Palm Beach, I sort of forgot about him JUDD: (laughter) BUCKRIDGE: He lives in Palm Beach but he moves around a lot JUDD: Do you not see him that often? BUCKRIDGE: When I go to Miami he’ll come down,who else, one, two. Oh one I have a brother who’s an air traffic controller but he was in the military with Special Forces JUDD: Is he the only one who was in the military in your family? BUCKRIDGE: My grandfather was in the military Page 16 �JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: He fought in World War 1 JUDD: Oh wow BUCKRIDGE: But beyond that no, no one else. and let’s see, my sisters, I have one who’s a paralegal who’s contemplating law school I have another sister who’s a stay at home wife, she gave up her career when she got married, she got married to a diplomat and so they, she gave up her job to be a diplomat’s wife JUDD: Do they have children? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm, and then I have another sisterh who also gave up her career when she got married. So two sisters are stay at home moms, but they travel a lot. So anyway, one of the things I will share with you isthis past summer my family by my fathers side, they go way back and it’s an old English family in Jamaica and I found out that they had, talking about diversity, that they had slaves through the days of slavery JUDD: Ohh they owned slaves? BUCKRIDGE: Yes, so I come from a family that owns slaves and some members are probably slaves too but it was challenging for me because as a child I heard the stories and I knew the stories, but last summer I actually got the chance to look at the slave registry and so I looked at it, Buckridge, Buckridge, Buckridge all over the place and it really bothered me JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: so that was something I had to deal with in terms of diversity and what does it mean JUDD: What was the race of the slaves that they BUCKRIDGE: Theses were African slaves JUDD: Oh okay so African slaves, and so it bothered you? BUCKRIDGE: Mhm JUDD: Did the rest of your family kind of feel that way? How did your father feel about that too was he BUCKRIDGE: My father was dead by then but I mean these were things that they just all knew but nobody talked about it JUDD: Was he alive when, did he own slaves as a child, was it his family or what BUCKRIDGE: No no no slavery was abolished in 1838 JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: So it’s the history of my family, going way back Page 17 �JUDD: On your dad’s side? BUCKRIDGE: Yes, am I giving you too much? JUDD: (laughter) No no this is a lot of good info! Well is there anything else like about your family life you want to talk about or your personal life, or personal achievements or anything your super proud of or not so proud of? BUCKRIDGE: Super proud of? JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: I don’t know, my travels, my, I don’t know JUDD: (laughter) BUCKRIDGE: What am I proud of? I don’t know JUDD: Well look at your wall BUCKRIDGE: My family, my friends, what’s other things that I’m proud of? My family JUDD: Your very proud of your family BUCKRIDGE: Yes I’m very proud of my family, yeah I don’t know, that’s an interesting question, I’m proud of my family, my travels, the things that I’ve accomplished, my degrees I guess, that I’ve gotten to this far JUDD: Going back toschooling when you were younger, so was it more of a privilege for you to kind of go on and advance farther with your going on to college and stuff was that kind of harder to do for people your age? Was it harder to get into or was it just you are basically judged on how smart you are or how much you apply yourself BUCKRIDGE: Yeah I think so yeah, but again its very competitive, in this country education is seen as kind of a variety people take it for granted, it’s not like that for us and so not everyone goes to college or university. I would like it to be that way but JUDD: So do you like the system here then that it’s better a right BUCKRIDGE: I think both systems have merits and demerits it depends, this system allows you togo at your own pace there are mechanisms in place to help you. When I was growing up that was not the case and in my system that’s not the case, maybe now they do but back then they didn’t have things like writing centers and skills clinics and stuff JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: A few of those things did not exist Page 18 �JUDD: Do you feel like if you grew up here that you would of taken advantage of it more or do you feel like you kind of have that drive BUCKRIDGE: Maybe, maybe not, but that’s hard to tell I think a lot too depends on how you were raised and your upbringing your parentswhere you come fromso I think it all depends and I don’t know if I’m answering your question JUDD: No you are that’s just a vague question BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: So were you close with your mother at all? BUCKRIDGE: Mhm yeah very close JUDD: Very close with all of your family BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm very close, we talk almost, my mother, we talk almost every other day JUDD: Really, aww that’s good, how often, who do you see most out of your family now would you say BUCKRIDGE: I’m here by myself so I don’t see any of them regularly JUDD: Regularly yeah, do they come to see you though BUCKRIDGE: No, they don’t like it here JUDD: (Laughter) BUCKRIDGE: They would rather me come to them JUDD: And I feel that you would rather go to them too wouldn’t you BUCKRIDGE: Yeah, look at the weather it’s too cold JUDD: I know BUCKRIDGE: Jamaica and Miami are so much warmer JUDD: (Laughter) BUCKRIDGE: Wouldn’t you want to go there with a beach and hangout on the beach JUDD: Yeah oh my gosh, the winter I just can’t handle it here BUCKRIDGE: I know it’s gonna be cold, they’re saying it might be worse this year, it’s gonna be a brutal winter I hope not JUDD: Well being here anyways its right next to a lake so it’s already that much worse BUCKRIDGE: Yeah that’s true Page 19 �JUDD: I’m not a huge fan of winter and I’ve been in Michigan my whole life so BUCKRIDGE: There you go JUDD: Yeah so I should be used to it by now, but not my things, usually we actually, growing up we used to take a trip every year in the winter to like some place in the south either Florida or Texas BUCKRIDGE: Well sorry yeah JUDD: I’ve actually never been out of the country, exception Canada but I’ve been to a lot of states BUCKRIDGE: But Canada is good if you’ve been to Canada JUDD: Yeah BUCKRIDGE: Where at Toronto? JUDD: I’ve just I mean I’ve been through it but I’ve been not really too into it so I haven’t really even experienced being out of the country BUCKRIDGE: Oh okay, you just went to the border? JUDD: Well we went through it on our way to Maine from Michigan we were heading up to Maine BUCKRIDGE: Oh that’s the way you go? JUDD: Well we did it was shorter I guess, we drive we never fly I’ve actually never flown so BUCKRIDGE: Are you scared of flying? JUDD: My mother is (Laughter) and we travel together so, actually my first time flying will be this spring break I’m flying to North Carolina so yeah, I’m excited BUCKRIDGE: Are you going by yourself? JUDD: Mhmm my best friend lives in, he goes to school in North Carolina now so I’m gonna go visit him BUCKRIDGE: Good good JUDD: And I’m gonna fly (laughter) BUCKRIDGE: Good for you! JUDD: First time, I know I’m excited though, anyway this is not about me so BUCKRIDGE: (laughter) Well how much longer because I have to get these gradings finished JUDD: Well that’s 45 minutes so that’s close enough right BUCKRIDGE: You tell me! END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bafe4005967eaa4d085cf982174764bf.mp3 b6a27b210042090f37b99ef5181b7dcb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Buckridge_Steeve Title A name given to the resource Steeve Buckridge audio interview and transcription Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Buckridge, Steeve Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fraser, Kevin Judd, Erica Pemberton, Travis Description An account of the resource Steeve Buckridge was born in Kingston, Jamaica. He became a professor at Grand Valley State University several years ago. He is an Associate Professor of African and Caribbean History and Associate Faculty in African and African American Studies. Also this year he became GVSU's Director of Area Studies. In 2004, he published his first novel, The Language of Dress: Resistance and Accommodation in Jamaica, 1780-1890. This book discusses how freed and enslaved women used their fashion and style of dress as a symbol of resistance to slavery and accommodation to white culture in pre- and post- emancipation society. He discusses the differences between discrimination in Jamaica and discrimination in Grand Rapids and some of his experiences with it. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e28d4aff3586abd9b1fbc9e1da2f0f1.pdf 4af474baea4c664bf04cfbfb71c38fdc PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Jeanne Englehart Interviewers: Tylenda, Evan, Connor Johnson, Jason, Send, and Philip Joslyn Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/22/2012 Biography and Description Jeanne was raised in Atlanta, Michigan. She is a successful business women in the West Michigan area. She discusses how she became the successful woman that she is today. Transcript TYLENDA: We are hoping you will open up and you can talk about what you want. ENGLEHART: You must have some type of prepared questions? GROUP: Oh yeah. ENGLEHART: Just curious, how did you get my name?” GROUP: We knew we wanted to interview a successful woman in business… in Grand Rapids and we came across your name. Basically because of US Diversity we learned how women historically and today are treated differently in business and what not. So we are coming to you to get your view point on that because I’m sure you’ve dealt with that. ENGLEHART: So the premise to really how women how women are treated differently? TYLENDA: Yeah and see maybe any obstacles you have overcome and maybe different viewpoints, if men have treated you differently because you are a women and what not. We will also want some background information and we can go from there. ENGLEHART: It’s probably easier if you just started asking me questions other than ….. GROUP: Give us a detail background not real detail but outline of how and where you grew up. Head into how and when you knew you wanted to start your own business and just kind of transition us into that, college maybe. ENGLEHART: Well actually I grew up in Atlanta, Michigan, which is up in northern Lower Michigan in a small town that graduated 52 kids. That shows you how big it was. A lot of them are Engleharts, so just a large family and very very poor family……. It was not… we had 5 kids and a father who was disabled so it wasn’t a family that was education was important and a family that had the means to provide education. At some point I think I just decided it was… I needed to get out of there. So……I …..How do I Page 1 �start? There’s a really good, should of brought it for you, There’s a really good article that was in the Grand Rapids press about my life. That will give you a wealth of detail that I will be repeating. That will probably be really helpful and would put a lot of things into context for you, but … I kind of ended up in Grand Rapids in 1980 -81. And I came to work at, there used to be a store called computer land over on 28th street and they sold computers, they sold apple they sold big old luggable Compacts. They decided they wanted to offer classes for the customers that bought computers and I happened to be standing in line with the general manager of the store; I didn’t know him at the time. It was an IBM meeting and told me they were looking for someone. At the time I was working up at Mt Pleasant at CMU and then for a company called MoBark Industries. I thought oh gee why not that would be kind of fun to try that. So we moved to Grand Rapids… Sorry I have really bad allergies at this time of the year; I take Zertec and get cotton mouth so I apologize if my I take sips of water. There is also a Cat here at the school and I am allergic to cats, so it’s a double whammy. GROUP: We saw that. ENGLEHART: Oh yeah, it’s a big ole ally cat that the kids adopted. Of course it knows I don’t like it so it comes and finds me… Anyway, I had taken a job at CMU and was working there and then took a different job working for this company called MoBark industries. They were offering me different positions as I learned more about computers. JOHNSON: So that’s how you got to learn about computers? ENGLEHART: Well it was a lot of word processing back then, so I was heading up to the word processing area. TYLENDA: That’s back when you had the punch cards? ENGLEHART: Yeah, oh yeah and the tapes that ran through it. Yeah long time ago. So I took the job and once I was at Computer Land and I was working there for a year or two I thought how it was interesting that people would think, since you were part of a retail store that we were trying to sell them something instead of just educate them. So I noticed this funny little niche for someone who doesn’t sell anything but really knows how to use computers for business applications. So it’s just like this little hybrid piece that I kept thinking I know how to use a computer to increase people’s business efficiencies but they sometimes didn’t believe it because you’re working at a retail store. So I thought, well, there might be a business here. So I went and decided that I would try and start my own business. So I borrowed 5000 on my credit card and started a business. I didn’t go to the bank because I knew I didn’t have anything that anybody would loan against. So I can’t say I was ever discriminated against when it came to banking because I don’t think they would of lent the money to a man either. It wasn’t a female issue at that point. You don’t have to collateral you don’t get the loan. So that’s the way it usually it works and that was 1985. TYLENDA: Did you maybe have anybody telling you it might not of been a good idea or persuading you to do something else in regards to opening the business? ENGLEHART: Well it was my decision, at the time I was still doing work for Computer Land and I was doing work for Grand Rapids Junior college. So I had 2 different income streams and I went to the president at the community college and said I really wanted to do this because again people wouldn’t come to the college to teach them business because they thought you were going to teach them academics. So there was this competing interest. Are you retail or academic? Well I was neither. I’m in Page 2 �the middle. And so I went to him and said I want to do this, I want a sabbatical. I wanted a fallback position if it didn’t work. So he gave me a year to come back. So in part people say you must have been a big risk taker. I guess I didn’t see it as a risk. It was in hindsight. I almost had something I could go back to if it didn’t work. And so I found through Grand Valley, they used to have a computer lab for over flow of obstruction that was down on Division and Fountain. That was a building down on the corner. I don’t think they even own it anymore. They had a computer lab down there and so I worked out an agreement with them that I could use that computer lab for my classes. I started my business and I had a little office right there next to the Grand Valley space and I shared the Grand Valley admin who was part of the lab there. They were gracious enough to let me have a year to pay the rent. In exchange for me helping them maintain their computer lab and helping them with some of the stuff they needed. So it allowed me to have some time to not have to pay rent…It was kind of a unique situation. TYLENDA: Was there a time when you thought your business would not be successful and when did you truly start seeing it grow? ENGLEHART: Well I truly think there are always points when you think it’s not going to work and what was I thinking. I probably, yeah at least one time when I took a project on and then after I got into it I realized the way I had quoted it was wrong. I was losing my shirt on it. But you have to do it. You have to do what you say you’re going to do. It’s a big small town and word gets out very quick and so people were coming to me because of my reputation and my name so it was really important. I mean the company was Englehart training so it wasn’t too hard to figure out who owned it. So that was just a nice way for me to be able to, had to be able to do what I said I was going to do. Grand Valley was nice enough to help me with that. So it was a nice Segway for me, were I really started seeing that it was really going to take off. I always thought it was going to be successful but thought it had limited potential. Because once people are trained then what do they need? I wasn’t seeing how many upgrades, how many upgrades in the software industry. This was before Microsoft, this was back when teaching people Vizocal and WordStar was the word processor. This was before office. So I was doing a lot of training on these products and every time they had an upgrade then people had to be trained. So there were a lot of companies that came to me to do their training for employees. So this wasn’t onesy twosy people coming in. I did have public classes that were published but the majority of my business was corporate work so. JOHNSON: How did you stay up on your training with the changes? ENGLEHART: I would go to the different software companies. I did spend a lot of time in Utah with WordPerfect doing stuff and with Novell spent a lot of time with Microsoft when it became more popular. We became Microsoft Certified. That was the only way to get training was to spend time with the manufacturer. So that was always part of what I had to do. If I didn’t have the expertise I found people who did have it and contract with them. Especially in the areas of networking and open systems architecture, those were beyond my capabilities so I found people I could hire on a contract basis and put together a plan where we could split the profits. He was happy I was happy. TYLENDA: So how long did that go for? How long were you…? ENGLEHART: Oh gosh, well I was in the grand valley building for only a year. The business I sold the business 13 years later. And by then I had owned and built my own building. I had 52 employees and it was part of a franchise and system that I helped start. IT kind of grew really fast. There were a couple interim offices in Detroit. If you go to the lake shore and you go past Fruitridge and 3 mile there’s a Page 3 �building with a pyramid…it’s all glass to the top, that’s the building I built. So I sold the building and the business and then the tech market tanked. ENGLEHART: That was db luck, totally db luck *Continues to laugh* so it grew I think because it just, people again trusted that you can’t be all things to all people but you find people who can. So I was really big on finding the right people and again bring that level of expertise in. Even though it might have been a cost that I couldn’t afford like with those being Novell and Microsoft certification for networks. That’s a totally different animal then teaching people word processing. I had an arrangement with the experts that we split the profits. People would come in for that name because they had all the certifications. It was a really good way to build the business. Those are the cash cows, 5 days and $3000 classes. Those are the systems that engineers need constant training….. And so I figured it was just time to sell. TYLENDA: So is part of that still around today? ENGLEHART: The company I sold to well at the time it was known as Productivity Point International. Which is a, it’s a… TYLENDA: Subserr... ENGLEHART: No. Well it’s actually started by, a group called Knowledge Universe, but anyway. They bought. There were a hundred and some franchises by the time… TYLENDA: Wow. ENGLEHART: I sold and there was 8 individuals who started that franchise. So I was one of the people that started it. So when we sold, it was Chicago, San Francisco, New York, Austin Texas, Me, little old Grand Rapids, and who were the other ones? I can’t remember. But, so those are the ones they bought and then they didn’t do a very good job managing them. TYLENDA: Yeah. ENGLEHART: So, then again the market, the tech market just tanked. So, it’s one of those things, it was the right time for me. I was ready to do something else. I think I’m a serial entrepreneur. ENGLEHART: I have to be doing something different. TYLENDA: So, what is it that made you want to sell the businesses? Then what did you move on to? ENGLEHART: Well what made me want to sell it was the right price. I mean… It’s pretty... the greatest thing. ENGLEHART: It’s pretty basic when someone says, “Here’s a check.” And so it was money. It was also the fact that I was kind of bored with it. I was just kind of tired of doing it. My kids were grown and I thought well maybe it’s time to do that. And, with any business that grows that fast, you’re highly leveraged. I mean you have a lot of debt. You can’t grow a business that fast without having a lot of debt. So some of it is the attraction of not only getting a check, your debts getting paid off. So, how tuff is that? I just thought, well I’ll just go play with my grandkids for a while. I had no intention of doing anything. I left and it was June ’97, I think June ’97, and I, people know, and , when you’re available. Page 4 �And, Congressman Ehlers called me and asked me if I would consider working as his District Director doing some work for him. And I said, I love you Vern, but I hate politics. Why would I do that? And what he really wanted was me to do relations person. Someone who knew the people and the community and had credibility that could represent him in meetings and could really be his eyes and ears on the ground and help him with that outreach that all congressmen have to have because he was in Washington. ENGLEHART:’s Phone Rings ENGLEHART: Sorry, I should turn my phone off. Group Laughter ENGLEHART: So I just said... Told him I would do it and I did it for… I loved it. It was actually a great job. Because I reported to, the chief of staff in Washington, but I was worked here in the federal building. And there was staff here in the federal building that did things like immigration and social security and lots of casework, but my job was really out in the community. So, I didn’t have casework in the same way. It was a great job; I loved it. And then I was there five and a have years. And , someone asked me to apply for the CEO of the chamber of Commerce position. And I thought, hmmm. Do I really want to work that hard or not? And it was the national search and I thought what the heck? So threw my hat in the ring because I just loved what the chamber did. And just, ? They got it down to 30 people, and then they had 10, and then they had 6. And I said I think better tell Vern because somehow, somehow somebody’s going to tell him. Even though they had kept it very quite. So and when they selected me for the position. So, I did that. I took that job in January of 2005. TYLENDA: Okay. ENGLEHART: And stayed seven and a half years. I retired this past April. A year ago April from the chamber. And I was retired for four months and they called and asked me if I would help with the school. TYLENDA: Sounds like you’re trying to get out. ENGLEHART: I am. TYLENDA: And they’re just trying, trying to come back to you. ENGLEHART: I’m done. I’m done. No, they bought this building. Educational everything, great teachers and principle, etc. They uh, but they purchased a building. They had a half million dollar building that all of the sudden they had to pay for. It was a different skill set they needed someone with some operations skills and someone that could help them really put all of the business practices in place so that they could be sustainable. So I gave them a six-month contract to do that. I’m in month seven and I am done. Next week is my last week. ENGLEHART: So, yeah. No, I did what they needed. So... Helped them launch a capital campaign so they can start getting some money. They, they want to build an early childhood center. So… TYLENDA: Okay. Page 5 �ENGLEHART: So. Just. Than I am officially retired. ENGLEHART: Truly. JOHNSON: So, I don’t mean to like back track, but during all of this, when, when did you have your children? And how was that? How was parenting and like owning a business? ENGLEHART: Not easy. JOHNSON: How did that work? ENGLEHART: Well I had my children, let’s see. They’re now, I’m trying to think. They were not... I’m trying to think if they... When I lived in Mt. Pleasant, they were with me, I was divorced at the time. And they were with me in Mt. Pleasant. So I didn’t have the kind of job that was real strenuous. I worked at the college and was a secretary for one of the departments. And I am one of those horrible examples of someone who does not have a college degree. Went a long way on street smarts, but probably one of my biggest regrets. But it just didn’t happen. It didn’t happen for lots of reasons. And so, I kind of… My kids were part of the equation. Then they went to live with their dad for a while. And then they came back to live with me. So they were sort of in and out of the picture. By the time I started my business the oldest one was living with me and the youngest one was living with his father. So I only had, I was only single parent to one at that time. But early on I was, had them both. So they were… It was a challenge. Very much a challenge. But… TYLENDA: So you went into the Chamber of Commerce. What did that, what was kind of your job description? What would you do for that? ENGLEHART: Well, the chamber has 3,000 business members. And so the job was really to, , have services and programs and, and keep the members happy, ? Very strong political aspect to it. We had an office in Lansing. So, I was registered lobbyist. I did a lot of lobbying, which wasn’t my favorite part of the job. I spent a lot of time meeting with the businesses to find out what they needed and how we could help them be more successful. This, the Grand Rapids chamber is one of the 25 largest chambers in the United States. It’s a very large chamber. So we had, there was a lot of programs. We had our, our diversity initiatives, which were very unique in the country. And so we did a lot of work with them. Business that had an interest in how can diversity help your bottom line. We did, started to do a lot of work with sustainability while I was there with Norm Christopher at Grand Valley, who worked with me. So we set up a whole sustainability program so that people could find out more about how they could, their triple bottom line could be affected by sustainability. So the chamber is just always moving target. The job is to meet the needs of the members. Whatever it might be. And they’ll call you when they’re upset with the city commissioner because their sewer problem, or they’ll call you when they’re mad at the governor. So, it’s just a very wide range and so we would advocate on their behalf and try to help them solve their problems. So it’s just, it was, I mean it’s a management job. I mean, that’s what you do. You’re managing people and you’re managing resources. But it’s also very much a public position. You go to a lot of events and represent the chamber. I said if I never have to go to another black tie event in my life, I would be perfectly happy. Perfectly happy. JOHNSON: So now you said you didn’t, you regret not going to college. But yet, you still made it this far. Like how… Do you think that was easy or it’s possible for anybody? Page 6 �ENGLEHART: No. No, not any more. I don’t think so. I think that was probably the time, the era. I think it’s also that as I built my reputation, it became less important to someone where I was education than it was the results they could see that were proven. So, one thing I’ve never been is, never been dishonest about it. I mean, from day, everybody that I would never apply for a job or say, without telling someone. if this is what you want, I don’t have that master’s degree you’re looking for on the piece of paper. So, don’t waste your time, if this is important. So I guess it’s one of those things, now I don’t think you could do that. I don’t think you’d even get your foot in the door. But because again I think it is such a big-small town and I had done so much and I think I could do it because I was so well known. And that’s the bottom line. I don’t think you could do that anymore because people wouldn’t even give you a chance. TYLENDA: Now do you think you had more opportunities than anybody else did back then? Do you think you kind of, or things just kind of fell in place and you almost got lucky? ENGLEHART: No, I made the opportunities. They didn’t fall in my lap. Nooo, no. I think I had a lot of opportunities, but I think it’s because I was always looking for opportunity. I was always saying, if I’m doing this right now, what’s next? What’s next? What’s next? What’s next? And so, , if you, if you can say, gee, well if, , if we’re, if we’re teaching, , Novel was the big, , for years was the big, , operating system for networks. Well, , once you saw Microsoft make a move in that market, it didn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that you better be getting Microsoft certified because Microsoft eventually was going to knock Novel out. You, you just kind of know that. So, say well then I can see six months from now, we need to be in this niche and we need to own it. Because if we don’t own it, someone else is going to. For me, it is very, it’s probably a very competitive thing. Is that, I would look for the opportunities and say, I know if I don’t do it, someone else is going to. And how do I get there? And then I would look for the resources that could help. TYLENDA: Mhmm. ENGLEHART: So, sometimes it was using my own money, and going further in debt. And sometimes it was finding people like this company I ended up working with that did all the training. But, yea… JOHNSON: So while you were doing this, what sort of role models did you have? Who did you like look up to or want to stride for? ENGLEHART: Well, I wish I could say I had a lot of them, but I really didn’t. I think… I mean from a personal standpoint, my grandmother. But it was such a different era. I hate to say it. It was very competitive and woman weren’t always women’s best friends. I mean women were more competitive than men. I found that it was easier for me to get advice and ask a man, not to be a mentor necessarily, but ask a man to ask than it was to have a woman. Because that’s just the way it was. Because there were so few opportunities. Everybody wanted to be the queen bee, and there could only be one. And so, if you were the queen bee, they had to knock you off in order to get there. ENGLEHART: …Because there are not a lot of opportunities for women. I mean in high level. In the very highest level. There is not a lot. You look around and you see it. You look at board of directors. I'm on a board. A corporate Board. That, a paid board for a bank. But, there are very few women on those types of boards. There is not very many, Page 7 �TYLENDA: So kind of like could you give us like an example of one of those. Something like a dog eat dog situation. ENGLEHART: Well for example. Now a days they have like Infor, which is a big group for women that has 700 or 800 members. it’s all about supporting each other and supporting women. Well, they didn't have anything that was organized back then. So your support group was really those that you made friends with. AND, your friends you hoped wouldn't try to cut you. But, there was a lot of other people out there that I think would just say, well why, it’s another award. Why is she getting one more award? I don’t know if it is a jealousy factor. I don’t know. But, I felt that a lot and I think it was pretty common. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don’t have the high visibility you are not successful. (laughter) So which do you do? Do you continue? At this point in my life I am low profile. I don’t apply to do anything. They just had the 50 most influential women. I've been on it every year. This year I didn't fill out the application. I said, there are other women coming along that should take place (laughter) not me. I was the past, the future is coming, and so, but I was surprised when I saw the list. There was still a n number of women that are women like myself that are way past 60 that were on that list that I thought, well, haven’t you had enough? Do you really need to have your name on one more thing? I mean I guess I'm at a different point. TYLENDA: So you're more humble ENGLEHART: I just don’t care, it’s not important to me anymore. It's really not. I think at some point I just said I need to have my own sense of worth and it can’t come from a plaque on the wall. (laugh) It has to come from spending time with my 6 grandkids. Being with my husband once and a while. The price you pay for some of the success I had is the... it’s tough on your family, it’s tough. And I remember when my oldest son was in high school and I had started my business and it wasn't too old at the time. He was in sports. I remember going to track meets in my heels to watch him race. All these mothers looking at me. I’m like, I had to run in there and watch him run then I had to go back to work. Because I didn't have the luxury to be on the PTA and to help with the school functions. I had to work. So, they paid the price. I said, it’s time for me to change that. TYLENDA: So do you think you really did miss out on some of the important times back then? Like with your kids. ENGLEHART: OH absolutely. There’s no doubt. I mean you can’t do it all. You think you can. At some point you think you can. back in the 60's we were told we could to it all. So we try to do it all. You sort of find out at some point, you can but at what price. TYLENDA: So is that why you transitioned to this job? Because you feel like it’s a lot more fulfilling? ENGLEHART: No. I am doing this for them. I gave them 6 months. I am really kind of doing it. I am getting paid but I am doing it as a favor to some of the people on the board that I knew. They called me and said would you help. I am not looking for, I wasn't looking for a job and I am not looking for one now. TYLENDA: Don’t worry we're not hiring. ENGLEHART: Well my husband is 69 and he is a retired math teacher so he is at an age too that we are kind of saying, if we are going to travel and do some things now is the time to do it if we don't do it Page 8 �now... and the grand kids are in lots of different states. SO, its time. Summer is coming. Can’t wait to be off for the summer right. JOHNSON: So, when you were working at the Chamber, what sort of atmosphere was it like. Because you said there weren’t a lot of opportunities for women. So did you deal mainly with men a lot? ENGLEHART: When I said there weren't opportunities for women I wasn't referring just to the chamber GROUP: right, right... ENGLEHART: I was referring to corporate America. There weren't a lot of women in those high, high leadership positions. So yeah, I mean. When I would go into a meeting of the "business leaders", Whatever that means , in west Michigan. It’s a bunch of white guys sitting around a table. I mean let’s face it. It is what it is. I don’t know that it is a whole lot different now. So yeah I had to deal with mostly, from a leadership standpoint mostly men. TYLENDA: So did you ever see that you were kind of discriminated against? In the sense that if you did speak up your word wasn't as valuable as a male counterparts to yours. Do you have one good example? ENGLEHART: I think from a political standpoint, , when you're sitting in meetings and there are let’s say 12 business leaders around the table and the governor is there. And you are talking about political issues; there is always a tendency, not saying with this governor, I’m just saying that there is always a tendency to look at the man for answers. Or, I won’t use the governor I think I would probably use a senator or someone from the state house. I wouldn't say the governor. You just see that there is always this tendency that when a question is asked they will turn and say, well what do you think? They will turn to men. And at some point I feel like I have to raise my hand, like a little kid and say, the chamber's opinion is... so I would have to insert myself. But I would say that it was mostly, I think it was mostly political. I can't think where it was a big issue otherwise. I just think it was, just the nature of politicians. It’s a good ole boys network. I mean, that’s what it is. I mean chambers are good ole boy networks. There aren't a lot of women that are CEO's of chambers this size. There are more now. I was the first female CEO they ever had at the chamber. I was the first one. So that tells you something, 120 years it took them to get a woman CEO and then they went back to a white man after me. (Laughter) it’s a good ole boys network. Big-time! So... ENGLEHART: And I think that you think differently and you make decisions differently as a woman. And sometimes Men, that was very difficult for them to understand why would I make this decision? I know one that comes to my mind was the decision that I had to make that had to do with (pause...UH) it was for small market reform which was an insurance issue. And I was. The majority of our members that would have benefited from our supporting this legislation. But I knew that spectr hospital was opposed This is where I probably should have remained anonymous - I knew they were very opposed. And I, the decision, finally. Somebody had to finally make the decision and I made the decision in the interest of our members. Which 80% of those 3,000 members are small businesses. . With less than 10 employees. This was important. Well, I mean, you can imagine the stuff rain down on me big time. That I didn't support, the big dog on the hill. So, to this day there’s, I mean, he would, he wanted my neck, he wanted my job. He was adamant I was going to be fired. But he didn't get me fired... But. . That’s the kind of thing I'm not sure, I’m not sure how. I don’t know how a man would have responded. I just, my sense would have been that they might have caved into the good ole boys pressure. Page 9 �TYLENDA: Especially what you see today too. ENGLEHART: That’s just my, that’s my guess. Not based on anything. Just based on my observation of how, mm, how much pressure these guys can put on people. It's relentless. And I think as a woman you kind of go (hmmm) OK. Been there done that. Had babies. Can’t put pressure on me. (laughter) TYLENDA: So a woman's intuitions... ENGLEHART: Well I think it’s having the interest in the bigger picture. Having an interest in. (trails off) This isn't about, my reputation or about whether I'm the one that’s going to get slammed for making this decision, this is really about what is best for everyone. That’s a tough, tough job to have. Because there is a lot of pressure. So yeah. JOHNSON: So now that you are like, past that you say (inaudible), who do you surround yourself with? What kind of people do you want in your life to... ENGLEHART: Hmmm well I have a group of women friend that are... we used to tap dance together many many years ago. And the tappers are probably from a women’s friend group there is still 10 of us that get together every couple of months and drink wine, eat and drink more wine. So that group I surround myself with those. I surround myself I think with family more. m I have a, my youngest son is disabled. He had a stroke at 29 and he is paralyzed on one side and he can’t speak so I spend time. He's not living with us but I spend a lot of time with those kinds of issues. My oldest grandson lives here in town. He'll be 16 (sigh) and he's driving. So, I just spend a lot of time with, the grandkids and stuff. Because that is positive energy. And I can still make an impact. I can still help them with what they're going through. I don’t know, so, it’s pretty simple these days. I don’t do anything too exciting (laughter). TYLENDA: So would you say... What are you r biggest regrets throughout your whole life? You talked about not spending enough time with your kids, or anything else. Name something you wish you would have done differently. Maybe pursued a different area... ENGLEHART: I mean I certainly regret that I didn’t finish college. That is an obvious one. But mm, I think probably, regret that I, my personality is such that I'm very mm, I'm very focused. And so there's a good aspect to that and there's a bad aspect to that. . The good thing is, is when I am focused on something it is going to get done. I am very good at compartmentalizing and getting it done. The bad news is, is that when I am that focused there are a lot of other things that are going on that I am not paying attention too. Whether that’s is personal friendship that I have lapsed because I haven’t spent enough time. It's a two way street if you want to have friends you have to reach out now and then. It can’t always be the other way. So there’s some of that I regret that I haven’t, I haven’t done a really good job of keeping up with my friends. JOHNSON: So if you were going to give advice to somebody that might be like living in a small-town or having a poor family that wants to become successful what would you tell them? ENGLEHART: Don’t do what I did. (Laughter) mm... (Thinking) I would just say don’t take no for an answer. part of what has gotten me here is, if someone said no, I just figured out another way to do it. . I'm very determined and so I’m also very stubborn. So if somebody would tell me no, it would just, I was just that much more determined to prove them wrong. , and so it’s like just because one person says no or puts up a road block doesn’t mean you can find another way to drive around it and you have to be Page 10 �creative sometimes to drive around it. But you also have to be honest, you have to be ethical, all those things that are really core values I think. If what your core values are and you stick with your core values you will be successful Its just determining I think saying how far you want to push the rock uphill. Some people don’t have the personality that, that they want to keep pushing. I mean I had a family of 5 and all my brothers and sisters still live up in northern Michigan. Not one of them ever left. One has at least gone on to college and came back. Bu they all live there and they are all happy in this little isolated world. Here I would go nuts. But, their kids. they had their kids and their kids went away to college and came back and lived there. I mean its nuts. It’s like O.K. (laughter) To me that wouldn’t be, something I would be very good at, but they're happy. So I guess it’s all in knowing what you want to do. I just knew that I wanted to be someplace else and that I wanted to be. I knew I wanted to be in a city. I didn’t want to be in a town. . And to me Grand Rapids was a huge city. It’s like WOW. And then you go to New York or Chicago and you come back to Grand Rapids and you go this really is a small town. ENGLEHART: But, their kids, they have their kids and their kids went away to college and came back and lived there. I mean its nuts. It’s like to me that would be something that I’d be very good at but their happy so I guess its knowing what are doing what you want to do. I mean I just knew I that I wanted to be someplace else and that I wanted to be, I knew I wanted to be in a city, I didn’t want to be in a town and to me Grand Rapids was a huge city : but wow then you, you go to New York or Chicago and you come back to Grand Rapids you go this really is a small town...but I think that I just knew that I wanted to do something different I did not want to be, I didn’t want to be in Atlanta, Michigan the rest of my life. I was absolutely sure of that. TYLENDA: So I mean do we have any other questions? JOHNSON: Yeah how, what’s time like? TYLENDA: We got about fifty minutes I’d say. Jason: 46...yeah. ENGLEHART: We can finish early...hahaha. TYLENDA: Yeah I mean that’s fine with us just hope our teacher doesn’t get mad at us. ENGLEHART: Oh I see, ok. GROUP: Laughter. TYLENDA: So I mean is there any, I guess if do you guys have any other questions...... Jason: Not really. TYLENDA: I mean if not is there anything else you’d kinda like to say...any last. ENGLEHART: Well I’d like to hear a little more about your project. TYLENDA: Oh ok perfect......do we have the, the consent mm. Page 11 �ENGLEHART: The consent mentions the… TYLENDA: What it, what it is JOHNSON: Its TYLENDA: The group were split up into say five groups total six, six groups total with about four in each group and what it was is we went to go look out someone in society who is kinda viewed as different and so instead of most people went to the African community, African American community maybe like a teacher professor they went to LGBT member and kind of asked ‘em their point. We kind of wanted to do something different. See how a women in business is viewed cause even today that’s still a big topic and pay… ENGLEHART: mhmm. TYLENDA: Pay differences and everything like that. So that’s where we did our research and we, we saw that the 50 influential most, most influential women in Grand Rapids and then we found your name so that’s kinda how we got here. ENGLEHART: Ok. The…the…the focus is though civil rights? TYLENDA: mmm ENGLEHART: Histories, is that western Michigan civil rights histories? TYLENDA: I mean she didn’t give us…she didn’t make it…she didn’t tie us down too much and we even asked her if this was ok and she loved the idea. ENGLEHART: hmmm k TYLENDA: of going out to you so it kind of just worked out and we just wanted to be different. ENGLEHART: Yeah...well… it is interesting when you say civil rights obviously that when I talked about the diversity initiatives, the chamber…… it brought to mind that our chamber was very abnormal. It was the only chamber in the United States that had full time staff dedicated to diversity problems, training and education programs, and it was interesting. At one point when I was very early on in my chamber tenure, there was a major company in town that came to the chamber and asked to have a meeting, so it’s… there are a couple of VP’s. He said they thought we were spending too much time on diversity. TYLENDA: Really? ENGLEHART: Initiatives and programs. TYLENDA: Geez ENGLEHART: and we should be spending more time and interest on political activities and that was what they paid their membership for and if we didn’t make some adjustments they would be cutting back on how much they donated to the chamber and they did. Page 12 �TYLENDA: Unless they changed ENGLEHART: Cause I didn’t change my mind. TYLENDA: Yeah JOHNSON: What sort of a impact did you see your diversity initiative ENGLEHART: Having? JOHNSON: Yeah ENGLEHART: Well they had this program called "Facing Racism" that is just a tremendous 12 week program and the impact I saw was that people that would say to me years after they had gone through it what a change it made in their life because it’s facilitated and it puts you...first of all the makeup of the classes are always intentional to be diverse and you learn a lot about yourself you learn a lot about other races but you learn how… you’re put in situations so how it… it’s a feeling you… TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: How someone feels and…and there’s… it’s hard to explain it…it’s a very experiential project. I’m trying to think of an example, something they do... TYLENDA: Kinda put people in that. ENGLEHART: We… they do different scenarios but then…but there’s like one they have… they’ll have extra questions like...it’s called packy or back pack. I don’t know, it’s been years since I’ve gone through it but they would a ask question and if you could answer yes then you… then you could step back or, or forward, whatever it was and then this one and they…they ask about when you go to the… if you were to walk into the office or yard you say I need a band aid I cut my finger I mean what color is the band aid? TYLENDA: Yeah...it’s true. ENGLEHART: Now they do have clear band aids and now they… TYLENDA: uh huh ENGLEHART: do have...but typically I mean it’s just those kinds of things and you think will…how would I feel if every time...ah...every…, its…it’s like one more time someone’s pointing out to me I’m different. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: I’m not the same I mean it’s those little tiny. TYLENDA: and they go Page 13 �ENGLEHART: examples TYLENDA: like some dolls stuff you look at. ENGLEHART: Exactly...exactly. TYLENDA: Cabbage Patch dolls. ENGLEHART: So, so I think that I saw that it made an impact because companies including Grand Valley have put a lot of people through these programs. I think they see it as a way to begin to educate. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: That begin to tell people that you need to be aware it’s creating that awareness. It’s creating just some of the words that you use and the phrases that you use. I mean one person said this guys in the white hat and this guys and the white hat black hat ...good guy bad guy. Well that wasn’t acceptable because if you think about it the black hat was always the negative and the black was always being associated as the negative piece. And so again those are small examples but you start to think about how you speak and you start to think the language you use and how someone else hears that and I spent a lot of time with the different groups getting to know them whether they were African American or… Bing is a good friend of me who owned Eastern Florrals so the Asian community and so just learning that other people’s viewpoint is ok its different but its ok. And then so then in the workplace the more you do that the more productive companies become because you’re more open to and more creative ideas. TYLENDA: Exactly. ENGLEHART: because if you look at the most successful companies, they are companies that have embraced diversity not just by saying we embrace diversity TYLENDA: they actually… ENGLEHART: but by actually doing it and incorporating it and having people in leadership positions that are different. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: Power and different backgrounds and whether it’s at the chamber…one of my VP’s was a lesbian woman and she was black. It’s like two strikes. TYLENDA: uh huh ENGLEHART: Haha TYLENDA: Haha ENGLEHART: Ok she’s qualified and she’s good. Page 14 �TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: but again that’s not always seen, you don’t see that very often. JOHNSON: So…so that’s like what you told the company that came to you and said that they think you shouldn’t be spending as much money on that and you’re like well its… ENGLEHART: It’s good for the community, it’s good for the bottom line of the chamber, and it’s good for Grand Rapids. JOHNSON: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: To see that not everybody’s homogeneous, not everybody is, I used to jokingly……not everybody is white, Dutch, Christian reformed TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: They’re not; look on the streets in Grand Rapids… a little different than it used to be. Now the leadership may still be… but I was a woman and I’m Jewish. I mean…so I didn’t fit in any of the categories. TYLENDA: ah huh. ENGLEHART: So TYLENDA: So did you find a lot of companies embracing it then from… ENGLEHART: They’re starting to more and more… TYLENDA: Do you? ENGLEHART: Just starting to TYLENDA: Do you see still a lot of… kinda do as we say not as we do? Where they do kind of... say there embracing it yet they still treat people ENGLEHART: I think there’s a lot of religious discrimination… TYLENDA: Really? ENGLEHART: Still. TYLENDA: mmhhmm JOHNSON: Do you think that that might be like a west Michigan thing or is that…is that everywhere? Page 15 �ENGLEHART: I think it’s more prevalent in west Michigan. I’m not…I don’t know that it’s just west Michigan but it’s certainly something that you go to a cocktail party and people always say well what church do you go to? TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: It’s just…that’s part of the vernacular. That’s part of what they say and so when people are talking and there having casual conversation that’s part of what they ask in west Michigan. It’s…what church do you go to? JOHNSON: huh ENGLEHART: And when you tell ‘em you don’t… TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: They don’t quite know what to say....well I go to Temple Emmanuelle and I’m Jewish and its down on Fulton and yeah…it…and you…and simple things like…eh , the Jewish holidays which are different than the Christian holidays. So for me I……one time there was huge meeting that was planned and nobody had asked about my calendar and it happened to be on a Passover… TYLENDA: Wow ENGLEHART: And I said I can’t be there and they said well why not and I said its Passover and I said there’s not very many days I miss but I’m go to Temple...it’s like you guys with Christmas and Easter I go. TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: A couple of ‘em I go to and tried to make light of it and they were really upset that I didn’t come. TYLENDA: hmm ENGLEHART: They didn’t understand it and I said well you didn’t ask me TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: You just assed that because I was blonde and that… that I was probably Christian well you didn’t ask so those kinds of things… I think that it’s harder for a woman…I think if a man had been in that situation… I think that they would have probably understood more. I think cause if a man said now it’s a religious holiday. TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: I have to go to the Temple I think that would have been ok because people respect that. I think with a woman it’s almost like well… you couldn’t. Page 16 �TYLENDA: Break a rule and… ENGLEHART: Yeah or I don’t know I just… it I definitely felt minimized. TYLENDA: Ok ENGLEHART: By that TYLENDA: And was that for the… was that the chamber you said? ENGLEHART: No it was a meeting that somebody had that I was supposed to go to and represent the chamber TYLENDA: Oh, ok. ENGLEHART: So it wasn’t a chamber meeting. We would have never have scheduled something on a holiday. JOHNSON: I’m curious more hearing about this Jewish church that you go to and that community. ENGLEHART: Well there’s the Jewish community in Grand Rapids. There’s actually…three...really two major temples. One is Temple Emmanuelle on Fulton right by Aquinas College TYLENDA: Oh, ok. ENGLEHART: And then there is a Ahavas Israel which is on Michigan St. which is over almost by Michigan at the beltline that far over and then there’s another one that’s called the Chabad house. And the difference is that there is reformed Jews and there’s conservative Jews… and then there’s the Chabadnics which are the ones that are the black hats and they only walk and so. TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: There is a very small group of them in Grand Rapids, but the temple I belong to is a reformed temple so people who are in the reformed Jewish community are sometimes ......intermarriages…not both…maybe not both Jewish and… its more liberal… Ahavas Israel is very conservative… on Michigan all of their services are in Hebrew. TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: A lot of the services are in Hebrew at temple Emmanuelle as well but it is much more liberal and habab and some of the more conservative temples women aren’t even allowed to sit with the men TYLENDA: Wow. ENGLEHART: It’s that it’s still very divided…so…but there’s… I don’t know…I’d say maybe…it’s really small. There’s less than a thousand families in… Page 17 �TYLENDA: Right. ENGLEHART: In west Michigan…really in Grand Rapids. TYLENDA: ah huh. ENGLEHART: So not a very big…not a very big community. TYLENDA: I mean… yeah cause I live back home, right by West Bloomfield. My cousins are Jewish so I’m really familiar. ENGLEHART: Yeah. TYLENDA: That’s a really big area. ENGLEHART: A big area. TYLENDA: yeah ENGLEHART: Yeah…here your definitely a minority... to be Jewish... its…I think there’s a lot of……again a lot of stereotypes that people have that are not accurate and… TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: So it’s also a good opportunity as visible as I have been to also educate people. TYLENDA: You’re certainly in the position to do that…that’s good. ENGLEHART: Yeah it’s been interesting...deep breath...no I don’t want a Christmas present thank you… JOHNSON: You get Christmas cards and stuff? ENGLEHART: Oh yeah, all the time. TYLENDA: aagghh ENGLEHART: Yeah I mean I’m not easily offended I just think it’s interesting because people … TYLENDA: Assess so much ENGLEHART: Well and they just…even if they know they still send your Christmas card. TYLENDA: Man. ENGLEHART: It’s like ok, whatever, hahaha. I’m on your list. Ok. JOHNSON: Alright. Well thank you so much. Page 18 �ENGLEHART: I hope you have some information and if there is anything else…I can’t think what else I could tell you my gosh. TYLENDA: That was perfect. ENGLEHART: My life is kind of like an open book. TYLENDA: We’ll certainly reference that article too you have online ENGLEHART: Yeah, I think that’s a good article to really like…aagghh...I sign here it looked like you guys are supposed to sign down here, is that right? JOHNSON: I mean I can fill that out but yeah…I just need your signature. ENGLEHART: Oh JOHNSON: And then you can keep this one ENGLEHART: oh ok JOHNSON: Is that right? TYLENDA: Yeah one of them is for her, I think. ENGLEHART: oh ok the interviewer’s name. You want my address here? TYLENDA: Ah you can just put the school if you want. ENGLEHART: No I… cause Grand Valley…I know… I get all of their… are you kidding once you give money to Grand Valley TYLENDA: You can’t get away. ENGLEHART: I’m on every one of their lists. Kind of hard to get away from Grand Valley. There the best at fundraising there is. JOHNSON: Should we now do the introduction that we kind of skipped over in the beginning? ENGLEHART: Oh JOHNSON: That we’re TYLENDA: What do you mean? JOHNSON: That we’re meeting here with… ENGLEHART: oh ha. Page 19 �JOHNSON: Jeanne Englehart at the Grand Rapids Child Discovery Center TYLENDA: And I’m Evan Tylenda. Jason: I’m Jason Send. Phil: I’m Phil Joslyn. JOHNSON: I’m Connor Johnson. TYLENDA: And that concludes our interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b4d04bd9ddba33dfe3b5cc287342370.mp3 4159a964c2d604688e02418cbd4965e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Englehart_Jeanne Title A name given to the resource Jean Englehart audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Englehart, Jean Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Evan, Tylenda Johnson, Connor Send, Jason Joslyn, Philip Description An account of the resource Jeanne was raised in Atlanta, Michigan. She is a successful business women in the West Michigan area. She discusses how she became the successful woman that she is today. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8bcddbc48ba0b9a88ed0ab81905850ca.pdf eb09fe4d2359e5506753cc80f15264d3 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Donald Cullen Interviewers: Ian Baert and Heather Taylor Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/26/2012 Biography and Description Donald Cullen grew up near Royal Oak, Michigan. After being in the 4th Marine division on Iwo Jima, he was stationed in Hawaii before returning to Michigan. Donald now lives in Whitehall, Michigan, near his daughters. His love for the game of golf is as great now as it was back in high school. He discusses war. Transcript CULLEN: Well compared to the, the P-8 that’s a big ship you know. BAERT: Um hm CULLEN: It’ll hold a couple thousand men. Well, you know you’re bobbin up and down like this, you know that it’s stationary, and (pauses) a guy gets crushed in there. BAERT: Oh Really BENEDICT: (Interrupts) after he comes… CULLEN: Next that sticks in my mind more than anything… (Daughter Interrupts again) BENEDICT: After he comes, after he comes home BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: Uh, makes it through everything over there, and then that’s what happened to him CULLEN: And then when we get aboard the P-8, and the guy says, “What do you, (stutters), what do you want to eat? Swiss steak or something else you know? (Daughter and narrator laugh). After eatin’ rations for a month (everyone laughs more), you know? He says, “I don’t care.” They even had ice cream with that meal, uh so, it was uh… (Interrupted) BENEDICT: Didn’t you want spam Dad? (Everyone laughs) CULLEN: You know I’ll tell you one thing, I never, (stutters), I never minded spam. BENEDICT: Uh hm CULLEN: I didn’t always, (stutter), I mean compare to some of the other things we had I think. But it was, I was in an outfit that has a lot of guys from Detroit. That’s where I was from, Detroit, and it was, I don’t Page 1 �know, about 50% guys from right, (stutters), right around the Detroit area. I went to one, (paused) reunion they had, like you know just the guys in our outfit that was from around Detroit there. BAERT: Um hm CULLEN: And I never went to anymore that was it. (Chuckles) BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Tell Ian when you went down to sign up dad. This is a good story. When you went down to sign up. CULLEN: I (stutters) I don’t know what you’re talking about. BENEDICT: Well, well… CULLEN: I know when I went down there BENEDICT: Yea, and you told me that you were gonna sign up for the army CULLEN: Oh, oh yea I wanted to go in the airborne, hmm, cause I had a, my brother was in the airborne, And, the guy says, “No.” he says, “We got our quota, we take the first 500 men.” that day for the army, and so he says, “We got Navy, Coast Guard, or Marine Core.” And I said, “Oh, I’ll take the Marine Core.” (Chuckles) And that was uh, (paused), the guys never thought nothing of it, it was, but uh I didn’t want that Navy, they was, (daughter chuckling in the background), I was reading about it in the paper all the time. Those ships were getting sunk right out of New York Harbor. I says, “I want, I want dry land.” (Everyone laughs). BENEDICT: And Charley. Bill’s dad, he went down and he wanted to be in the Navy, cause he loved that water. Oh no, no, he couldn’t, they put him in the infancy 2:35 – 2:40 BAERT: Oh, I never knew… (Interrupted) CULLEN: (interrupts) Well uh…… BENEDICT: They do? BAERT: So you grew up around Detroit CULLEN: Yep I was uh, in uh, I was uh drafted. BAERT: Uh hm CULLEN: and uh, I was a draft warden for 62 out of Plymouth, MI. That was just, not too far from here. (Waiter comes takes drink orders, etc.) BAERT: That’s where all of my roommates are at, right around from Detroit, like uh. CULLEN: You, (stutters), you are? BAERT: My roommates are right around from Detroit. Livonia… Page 2 �CULLEN: Yep, that’s where I was BAERT: Yep, and… CULLEN: Livonia BAERT: uh Royal Oak, they have that big theater there. CULLEN: That’s where I was born, Royal Oak BAERT: Oh really? Yep, that’s where one of my roommates is from and he lives two blocks from the theater down there, so its uh, that’s why I was just curious though. CULLEN: Royal Oak Township. BAERT: Yep, it’s uh, it’s a nice area. CULLEN: I, I don’t even know what it’s like. BAERT: Oh Really? CULLEN: I was move away from there when I was just a little 3:36 – 3:42???? BAERT: Um, so you were, so you were drafted, uh we were talking about um, your childhood, um like, did you have any, like dreams jobs when you were younger? CULLEN: No BAERT: No CULLEN: Uh I, I think uh why I went in uh engineer outfit is uh I’d worked as a carpenter’s helper, you know, roofing houses, and I think that’s why they, why I went in a engineers. BAERT: Uh hm But I never had no, I wasn’t a carpenter I was just a, haul the lumber and nail em’. BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Well wouldn’t you say caddying was a dream job for yea? CULLEN: (laughing) Oh, I, I caddied for a long time. BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: (laughing) Oh Yea BAERT: I was going to do that for a ser too. I (stuttered) looked into that, that would have been a fun job. I love golf so, that would have been nice, but… CULLEN: Wouldn’t it? I think uh, well the, the guys around, I ….4:38 – 4:40 With a fella, well we was in school all the time, and uh, boy we played every golf course around this time of the year. You know, when they was closed up, and we knew they would be open (laughing) BAERT: Yea (laughing) Page 3 �CULLEN: We’d go out to Birmingham, or Oakland Hills, (laughing) drive right up the club, There was no other cars around BENEDICT: Just like they were members (laughing) CULLEN: Yea with an old 36’ Ford (laughing) BAERT: Yea (laughing) CULLEN: Henry, this guy that hung around us all the time. He had uh, he worked at Cadillac’s BAERT: Yea? CULLEN: And he drove the cars off the assembly line out into the parking lot there, you know, wherever they need them. (Laughing) And there he had to get into that old 36’ Ford, he had to drive it (5:17 - 5:23) and they don’t have no brakes you know them old 36’ Fords, mechanical brakes, and they never worked (everyone laughs). It was (paused) Henry he went into uh, he went into the Army after the war, and maybe he was little younger than me, I don’t know, and he went over in Korea. He was playing polo all the time, riding horses. I guess he had a good time doing that (laughing). BAERT: Yea definitely CULLEN: He was uh, we caddied together and played golf together all the time. He was a nice buddy. I watched hockey, not watched it, I mean I listened to it. We’d play table tennis, you know, in a garage with a (laughing) a little (6:26-6:30) we was always bumping our head on that thing. Anyway, that’s when Detroit won the first 3 games against Toronto. What was it 1942? (Laughing) Well I thought maybe you knew the hockey… BENEDICT: Dad, I was still a star in heaven (laughing) CULLEN: Detroit wins the first 3 games just blowing Toronto out. They lose the next four. BAERT: Oh, wow CULLEN: I think 1942 BENEDICT: So we come to be Red Wing’s Fans from way back. BAERT: Do you have any Siblings? Did you have any brothers or sisters? CULLEN: Yea there was five of us, and my oldest sister, she’s gone, and so is my older brother. And my younger sister, she uh not doing good, her minds going, like mine is too. Donna told me to, 7:27 – 7:35 I, I drive over here I thought she told me to meet her over here. BENEDICT: I said, I see him at the casway and I said to Bill, well there goes dad, (laughter). Good thing it’s a small town. We can track him down (laughs). CULLEN: I pulled in over here this morning I thought it was at 9:00. Page 4 �BAERT: Ah CULLEN: The cop was across the street waiting, boy I had to be careful I didn’t do anything wrong. He was just waiting for someone to pull a boner, and he was going to nail them. I don’t mind the police being on alert like that cause I, I usually drive I think slow enough. I don’t, I don’t speed too much. But uh, you know most the time when I’m driving, every once in a while I’ll look and if I see a speed limit sign, I’ll look at the speedometer, you know the speedometer, I’m going exactly what that reads up there. Now is that just, I don’t BENEDICT: That’s talent, that’s skill (laughter) CULLEN: But honestly I’ll, if it says 25 I’ll be maybe doing 26 or 27, but right in there BAERT: Yea, that’s what I usually do too, so. BENEDICT: Dad has also a younger brother. BAERT: Oh ok CULLEN: Yep, Jack he’s a. Does he? Jack was a brickplayer. That longed for me to… BENEDICT: (interrupts) 8:59 CULLEN: He uh, we worked together for a while trimming trees for the city of Detroit, well that was, we enjoyed that I think both of us. We had nice foreman. I think having a good ser means a lot to a job. It makes the day go by so much faster. I gotta tell you this story with this foreman we had. He’s great big guy. Big teeth, just a big smile on his face all of the time. We’re trimming on this street you know, I knock down a branch or maybe about this big, and (estimates size) just about covered all the way across the road. And there’s, oh about this much snow I’d say (estimates again), fresh snow. This UPS guy he’s coming along, and he’s got a delivery, he’s pushing this branch along. This big ol’ foreman we got he said, “Can’t you read that sign, it says do not enter.” “Road closed.” And he’s getting pushed backwards and he’s got feet about like that (laughs). He’s a great big guy. He loses his temper, the first time I ever seen him lose his temper. He says. “Goddamn you!” He says, “Stop it!” (Laughs)I never seen Harvey, Harvey Brinks was a 10:27, never seen him get like that, but there he, he got pushed off edge by 15, 20 feet backwards. The guy couldn’t get across that, Harvey’s feet was there. He couldn’t get away. It ticked me, you know, I was, having a bird’s eye view I was up the tree watching it. Oh, that Harvey was a… Then we, we went over on another Street, Boston Blvd, maybe you know that. Well, that was the wealthiest street in Detroit, you know way back. Henry Ford lived there, and the whole haul of General Motor people. Everybody that had money lived on Boston Street. The trees hadn’t been trimmed in about 20 years, since the WPA had been there. They were way up there; they had trees up there about 80 feet somewhere, Elm trees, big ones. We’d be up there climbing around. Harvey was up and say, “Coffee!” (Laugh) He’d just like to see us come sailing down out of some trees. It was his way of having a good day. He was uh, really uh, good foreman. I liked him a lot. He had a, had a brother that was into racing. (Stammers a little) Page 5 �His brother in law bought this Lincoln, or (paused), I think it was Lincoln. And that was the fastest thing, you know for the track, riding on the track PAULINE: Oh ok CULLEN: Like what they’re doing today. I, I see that on television every once in a while. They had a big crack up yesterday. Did you happen to see that or anything? BAERT: I saw it on ESPN, yea CULLEN: I was watching that… BENEDICT: Oh is that a NASCAR or? CULLEN: Yea about 3 or 4 of them right together coming into, they only had about a half a, not even half a lap to go. BAERT: Yea the quarter turn, cause uh, the 11th place guy at, right before the crash ended up winning the race. CULLEN: (laughing) Yep! BAERT: Which is weird so (laughing) CULLEN: you know there was a car there I was watching, he was, I think he had the most speed. But boy they kept him pinned in back there. BENEDICT: Well I think they use that as a strategy don’t they? To kind of widdle people out. BAERT: What did your parents do? CULLEN: What? BAERT: What did you parents do for work? CULLEN: Oh I don’t know (laughter). My mother she was a worker, my dad was an outman. Then he had a pool hall over in Highland Park. I, I never, I think I, I didn’t spend I don’t think 3 hours in that pool hall. I, I never, I rather play table tennis more than pool. BAERT: Yea CULLEN: Look it there’s the dog tag I got. BENEDICT: Yea this is um, Dad’s dog tag. BAERT: Oh this is awesome! BENEDICT: Yep, isn’t that great that we found, we were, um looking for, uh the toy box um grandma, she had a toy box for all of us grandchildren you know, and um Jenna now that she has a child. She said, “Oh can you find grandma’s toy box?” So dad and I were down in the basement looking around. We found his (sea bag 14:02 – 14:05). BAERT: Oh Really? Wow. Page 6 �BENEDICT: And I said, “Look it dad.” And it was his I.D. and, um his dog tag was in it, and we had cleaned out a couple other boxes and I said, “And what’s this?” and I pulled this great big piece of metal out of his (sea bag) about this long (gestures), all the cleaning and looking was over when I found that, that uh gun barrel. (Laughing) CULLEN: Oh (laughing). My brother Jack had sent into the army, and he got an old rifle and uh then he bought an extra gun barrel, because they didn’t recommend that gun barrel that was on there. That it may not be useful, so then Jack bought an extra barrel, and he gave it to me. Well, it’s a, I don’t know if you know rifles or not, but there are some that have 3 grooves and some of them got 4. Well the 4 groove it shoots a little straighter, it puts a little more spin on it. BENEDICT: So he has me looking, and I’m not (stutters), I don’t know what I’m looking for. He says, “Hold it up to the light hunny. I can’t see it real good. Is that a 3 groove or a 4 groove?” Well what on Earth am I looking for? (Daughter laughs) So I have this barrel… (Interrupted) CULLEN: Riflemen’s the only ones that have any, uh knowledge of that. You know most people pick up a rifle and they don’t know… (Background noise, multiple people talking) BENEDICT: Dad knew he had it but didn’t know where it was, well they it laid at the bottom of the, of a (sea bag). CULLEN: Did you look at that close Donna? BENEDICT: Yea I looked at it close. CULLEN: No but there’s something on there I bet you didn’t notice. See that little “C” over there? BENEDICT: Uh hm CULLEN: That’s what denomination we are. See I was baptized Catholic BENEDICT: Oh, ok MR BENEDICT: Show Ian CULLEN: And type “O” blood. That’s when I went in 1943. PAULINE: That’s pretty nice. BENEDICT: Isn’t that something to put that on there? BAERT: It is. BENEDICT: Yea DAVE: See that was, when I went in, in the 80’s that was uh, you’re religion was a big (16:02 – 16:06 BENEDICT: Oh yes GUY 1: I bet you it isn’t anymore. PAULINE: It might be. Page 7 �BENEDICT: But you, but you look at, um the cemetery, um you know Arlington National they all have record if you are Christian, or whether you are Jewish or… CULLEN: What other questions you got? BAERT: Well I was just looking at, uh like, well we already talked about like, if you had any like, where you saw yourself in 10 years and stuff like that. Did you play any sports when you were younger, when you were a kid? You remember playing sports with your friends or anything like that? CULLEN: Well we played sports, uh all, like um when I got out of the service we went my brother; my brother took over my grandmother’s house right down pretty close to the ball park. BAERT: Oh ok CULLEN: On Balt and Temple. It was right on ….street 17:11. There was my older brother Gordon, and Jack and I and then there was Cullen family across the road (laughing). BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: No relation CULLEN: (Laughing) Yea no relation, two boys, and then Henry and Mrs. Lawrence would come over. That’s it. But uh I always ched around with Henry. He had blond hair and his brother had black hair, Chet. Anyways, we had almost a softball team right there, the three of us with two across the road, and Henry and Lawrence, they’d come. We’d play softball almost every night. BAERT: Oh right? CULLEN: At Naple Field, and we had a short right field fence and, well the street run there, the way the ball diamond was outlaid. I played short right field there. We was playing black guys. You know they, they loved to play ball. Anyways, there was one hit out there to me and I caught it, and I threw it into, Lawrence was catching. He tagged a guy out. The guy couldn’t make it from third base (laughter). Well it was a short right field wall and all; you know it never went out very far. You only got a single if you hit it over the fence; you know at a certain so many posts down. Then it was a double and then there was an entrance way down there and I think if you had it past that it was a homer. BAERT: Oh yea? (Laughs) CULLEN: Isn’t that something? BAERT: Yea CULLEN: The way we had it figured single, double, and then a homer (laughs). But uh, it was the bat boy for the tigers, well Lawrence our catcher he uh went with his sister who was Lawrence’s girlfriend, isn’t that something? (Laughs) BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Did it get you into the games? Page 8 �CULLEN: uh they never got me into the games. Lawrence’s did, but I mean they called him Tarzan, all the girls were on there, cause he had long black hair. The only one, you know, that had long hair. I don’t think I’ve ever had long hair in my lifetime except when I was a real little guy BENEDICT: How’d you like Stevie’s hair yesterday? Did that remind you of Christopher or what? (Laughs) CULLEN: I use to cut the boys hair but, then they got so big and they wanted long hair, so I hung up the clippers. BENEDICT: And my mom, Christopher had beautiful curly hair and he didn’t want to have his hair cut you know, and mom didn’t want him to get his hair cut. Here’s dad clipping the other boy’s hair and poor Christopher, you know he would run and hide (laughs). Well now he has a son and Stevie showed up, and it was the spitting image. I couldn’t believe it, it was my baby brother right there his child with long hair, and he’s a hockey player. I said… (Waitress comes and clears table) I said I didn’t know if I should call him Justin Bieber or not. He had the bangs all over. (laughs) but tell, yea, tell him, I want you to tell Ian the story about, um when you guys were cadian and the cadies could play on Mondays. CULLEN: Monday mornings. Henry 20:46 and I, we’d be the first ones out there. We’d play 18 holes before there’d be, uh footprints of anybody else on the course. BAERT: Wow CULLEN: We’d play 18 holes and there wouldn’t be no other caddies out there yet. Now, that’s going around a pretty good time. BENEDICT: What was the name of the course, um Forest… CULLEN: Forest Lake BENEDICT: Forest Lake, and um a friend of mine, son, was getting married and they would come down there. And so they were going to hold the reception at Forest Lake Country Club. So I said to dad, “Do you know where Forest Lake Country Club is?” I got to tell you a story about Forest Lake, but anyhow. Really, it’s very ritzy place now, but what did you say that the course was um private then went public? CULLEN: Yep, during the wartime cause people didn’t have gas to travel very far. Everybody had a ticket right on your windshield. You know, when you went into the gas station. You had service men in there, they’d come out. Well you had to show your card, and then they’d punch it too so you couldn’t get more gas then what you were allowed. You were only allowed so much gas a week. I don’t think this country really realized how much the United States dedicated to that war. I mean everybody it wasn’t just… BAERT: That’s what we were talking about the difference between, um like, a limited war and like a full war went. That entire economy, everything was dedicated to the war effort compared to like now where it’s hardly ever, hardly at all. Was there anything else besides gasoline that everyone struggled at, that was rationalized? 22:47-22:49 CULLEN: Oh I, I think, uh meat too, I think you had to have, uh food stamps. It was I think everything, but everybody was into it. I mean I don’t care, the whole family everybody would do certain things. Page 9 �BENEDICT: Uh hm, or gave up certain things, yep. CULLEN: My sister Joel, that’s, uh older then I am, she was, she worked in the factory. She worked on the B29’s and I didn’t even know they were making the B29’s. Isn’t that something? Marge she worked in the factory too. That was my oldest sister. She was 9 years older than I was. MR. BENEDICT: So did you get drafted Don? CULLEN: Yes MR. BENEDICT: where’d you go to base? CULLEN: San Diego MR. BENEDICT: Oh yea, Camp Pendleton? CULLEN: What? MR. BENEDICT: Camp Pendleton? CULLEN: No San Diego Base. MR. BENEDICT: Oh really? CULLEN: And then you, up north a ways was Camp Pendleton. I was at the rifle range, uh I think I was there for a week, or two week, I forget now. But uh, you had to go through the rifle range and that was, you know, when you were in boot camp. But that San Diego boot camp, that (24:19 – 24:22) I bet you is a mile. I never seen such a thing and the navy was down at the end of it. The Navy uh, I think they had a boot camp down there at the end of that; but sometimes well I don’t know how many platoons they had but… (Waitress comes to table gain bringing something) I don’t know how many platoons they had… MR. BENEDICT: You want to eat yet? CULLEN: What? MR. BENEDICT: Are you ready to eat? CULLEN: Well uh I was going to eat with Sherrill afterwards, but I don’t, I don’t turn away food very well. (Laughter) I don’t, I don’t eat a lot but whatever I take and put on my plate I eat. BENEDICT: Now how much did you weight when you entered the core? CULLEN: you’re asking questions I don’t know. BENEDICT: How much do you weigh now? CULLEN: well I’m losing weight now, but I was 157 pound for 30, 40 years. I didn’t have to get on the scale to know how much I weighed, I weighed the same. (Background noise, joking around, and laughter) Page 10 �[After returning from the buffet area] CULLEN: Are you familiar with Muskegon? PAULINE: A little, I have been here years ago. I haven’t been around here in a long time CULLEN: What do they call it? The steak and agger. PAULINE: Oh? CULLEN: We went there at 9 o’clock in the morning and honestly it’s all, I don’t know how much bigger it is than this here place, maybe two or three times bigger. Almost all the seats were taken. BAERT: Oh really? Wow. CULLEN: At 9 o’clock in the morning. For breakfast. PAULINE: It must be a good place then. CULLEN: Oh, you know what? I said Bill, I think, I said, in fact I must be a big man, big eater because everybody, everybody, honestly the biggest servings you have ever seen. Really I have never seen anything like that! [Chuckles from group in the background] CULLEN: but uh, I talked with a fella that he wants to know about when I caddied. He is with Michigan, what is it? I don’t know what Bobby is with. What is the topper? What does he have to do with? The Michigan golf association or something? BENEDICT: GAM? Golf? Yeah the golf association of Michigan CULLEN: He was down there at the steak and agger. BENEDICT: When? CULLEN: Yesterday Morning. But he left at 9 o’clock. We just missed him. BENEDICT: And he’s been um he’s been battling severe cancer. He has been at the U of M. CULLEN: he is getting where he can drive a car. But he called me up every once in a while [in laughter]. One time I told him lets go over and play Lincoln fields. He says where’s that Don? I say it’s like in golf cars. He said it reminds me of the fields around our house growing up as a young kid. I says it got the nickname Lincoln fields. Oh he laughed! He has never got over that. BENEDICT: And his other friend didn’t particularly care for that. CULLEN: oh no. the guy we played golf with all the time Ken, he didn’t think that was funny at all. [Laughter from others]. Bill: One time I asked him how his golf game was, and he said a lot better than his dad’s game was! Page 11 �BAERT: you said you used to play softball with African-Americans in the area? And stuff like that? Were they treated [cut off] CULLEN: we didn’t have any uniforms, we just played every night. In the ser time. Not on the weekends. And it was um, I think I enjoyed playing that softball more than any sport. I think I liked it more than golf. PAULINE: we played it all the time all day long when I was a kid. CULLEN: Softball? Oh it gets into you doesn’t it? PAULINE: I didn’t really have a mitt for the longest time, I finally asked for a mitt for my birthday. I had one with no pocket in it, the pocket was coming off, and it was the only thing I had to keep my hand protected. CULLEN: I had an old black mitt, and you know, I punched holes in it and sowed it and put a string, a shoe lace across there, to hold my fingers together. I think afterward I see others they put leather on and around that up there at the top you know? And sowed their fingers together. But I did before they did I think. But that old glove... we used to play the ford republic. Have you heard of the ford republic? BAERT: I think I have heard of it. CULLEN: well Henry Ford had a place for wayward kids and uh, they had a big, what is it, a big farm. They had all kinds of things there. We used to play them. We used to go and play the Ford republic there and in softball, or baseball. I was pitching one time, I threw, I was the pitcher, I threw nine curve balls and struck out three guys. In nine pitches, they never touched the ball. Against the ford republic. But somebody stole my glove down there. Yeah that black one I had the black lace around it. So I went down there the next day and told em, I told the coach I said somebody stole my glove yesterday. He said he thinks he knew who just gone done it. And he went and looked in these guys locker and it wasn’t there, went in the next one and there it was. He knew the guys that were stealers. [Laughter in the background] CULLEN: and the coach he, I said someone stole my glove and he said, I think I can find it. And I couldn’t believe it. BAERT: do you remember, like how, when you were a kid, how civil rights were coming up? Or not really? CULLEN: nope, there were no, blacks, it was something to see a black person. You just didn’t see em around our house. BAERT: that was just one thing that we talked about. Um did you notice how society was starting to change more technological more uh emphasis on education at all? Did you ever notice that when you were a kid? How things were changing? CULLEN: no, not too much. I was... I would play hard and go right home to bed. Page 12 �BAERT: yeah this ser I worked in a factory, that’s exactly what I did too. I would work a twelve hour shift, id workout then I was... CULLEN: you would wanna go to bed! BAERT: haha exactly! PAULINE: He may have seen a difference in vehicles over the years being from Detroit. BAERT: before the war, did you have any presumptions or did you have any feelings about the war before3 you entered? CULLEN: oh I don’t think so. BAERT: you don’t think so? Was it, well it was all around you, but was it, was your family really focused on it at all with stamps or anything like that? CULLEN: I remember hearing President Roosevelt when he declared war on Japan. BENEDICT: but your brother was already in the service before wasn’t he? CULLEN: no. BENEDICT: oh he wasn’t? CULLEN: oh, he went in before I did but not very long before I did. BENEDICT: oh ok. CULLEN: I think I got discharged before he did. Couple, maybe two or three weeks but our division was the first one to break up too when the war ended; of the Marine divisions. BAERT: um, how were you treated when you came back? CULLEN: um pretty good, pretty good id say. BAERT: Pretty good? That was the one difference between each war when people came back, and how they were treated. CULLEN: I think everyone was treated the same, I think you got three hundred dollars. BAERT: oh really? CULLEN: Must turn out payment. Uh, I don’t think people got any more or any less, it was three hundred dollars and everyone got the same. BENEDICT: yeah, but think how the Vietnam vets were treated dad. Think about the Vietnam vets were treated when they came back. BAERT: yeah they were harassed and different things like that for a long time. Page 13 �CULLEN: oh... I don’t think we had any of that. BAERT: Oh, did you earn any service medals or any ribbons or anything like that? CULLEN: no. BAERT: No? CULLEN: oh, I got some citation for the unit citation; you know the citation everyone in our outfit got one. BAERT: oh ok. Um well after the war what kinda like jobs did you have, and uh like where you decided to settle down? CULLEN: it was pretty hard for me, I’d take, one year I think I had 6 or 7 jobs. BAERT: On the west side of the state? Over here? CULLEN: around Michigan, around Detroit. [Chuckles] I think I worked for the city the longest; I worked there a couple years. About 3 years. BENEDICT: and then how did you come up here dad? CULLEN: How’d I come up here? Well my mother had, lived just out here, on silver crick road. And uh, I used to come up here. I seen and ended up playing golf at white lake, I used to play at white lake. MR. BENEDICT: That’s where he met his wife BAERT: oh ok CULLEN: I got to meet her, and next thing we got married. It was uh Nina was now Max peach, this is a story from Max peach she is an old timer out there. But Nina beat all the men down there one Sunday morning; her golf score was lower than any of the men [chuckles]. And Max, he never forgets a thing. He knows just how far he hit the ball on number 8! At white lake. [Laughter in the background] CULLEN: I even forgot that. BENEDICT: it was amazing that we are living out there and being out there. Having that be our golf course and that’s where they met. PAULINE: that’s pretty neat. BENEDICT: then Jenna, our daughter, met her husband there; he was the assistant pro at the golf course and met Eric at White lake. PAULINE: so how did the men take getting beat by a woman, did they handle it very well? [Laughter breaks out] Page 14 �CULLEN: Ma that tickled max peach more than anybody. BAERT: when you were raising your kids, you rose them on the west side right? CULLEN: they all went to Montigue. BAERT: how do you think that was different for them from you, growing up in Detroit? CULLEN: ohh I think they have way more to offer the kids this day, but uh I think like the, I told Donna the other day I took two hours of typing in ah, I never monkied with a type writer sense, and the key board, I still remembered it. BENEDICT: I showed him my cell phone, the texting, and he knows that they were the same way the type writer was? And I said yeah. And he rattled off the order of the keys. BAERT: oh yeah? CULLEN: and I haven’t picked up a type writer in… I have not been around one sense I was in school, in 9th grade. END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b3b4bd04e3de773a30524bc505bd2c3f.mp3 30d68b880445b5734a29f13467703995 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Cullen_Donald Title A name given to the resource Donald Cullen audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cullen, Donald Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Baert, Ian Taylor, Heather Description An account of the resource Donald Cullen grew up near Royal Oak, Michigan. After being in the 4th Marine division on Iwo Jima, he was stationed in Hawaii before returning to Michigan. Donald now lives in Whitehall, Michigan, near his daughters. His love for the game of golf is as great now as it was back in high school. He discusses war. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Veterans--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b73a7e5f993aa23580f5d974ee4dfca1.pdf 56d02c3fe2370c51d1564ed980d476e3 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Arlene Akker Interviewers: Kelly Gorajec, L. Bailey, B. Harter, and Z. Huyser Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/22/2012 Biography and Description Arlene Akker is a teacher at Muskegon High school. She was born and raised in Muskegon Heights. She discusses racism and diversity growing up in Muskegon. Transcript Kelly Gorajec (GORAJEC): I’m here today with Arlene Akker, my name is Kelly Gorajec, its February 22nd, at 3:03 PM at Muskegon High School in Muskegon, Michigan. We’re here today to talk about your experiences with civil rights in west Michigan. So, can you give me some basic information about yourself? Arlene Akker (AKKER): Well, my name is Arlene Akker; I’m a teacher at Muskegon High School. I was born and raised in Muskegon Heights, Muskegon. I have lived on Amity Avenue by Steele Middle School. I went through Angel and Steele, and then because my mother taught at Muskegon High School, I had to go through a private high school, but I took classes here. And, I have a degree in History and English and I have lived in Muskegon for a long time. GORAJEC: do you have any children? AKKER: I have two children, they are both adults. GORAJEC: Can you tell me about where you went to school? AKKER: Well I went to Angel and Steele school, which as you know, an elementary or at least it was an elementary school and middle school to Muskegon public schools. I had, when I was at Angel school, the very first African American teacher in the Muskegon Public Schools. She was my fifth grade teacher (that’s interesting) she was also my teacher at the time that Kennedy was assassinated so there’s a lot of history there. And she’s still very active in the school and I am so glad when I see her. I went to Steele during the civil rights movement and I was also a student at Steele school at the time Martin Luther King was assassinated. So I lived through riots down Amity Avenue where our windows were broken in our homes, and I didn’t really feel safe all the time walking home, but that did pass. GORAJEC: Yeah. So, since you have always lived in west Michigan, can you tell me why you didn’t decide to leave, or can you elaborate why you’re still here? Page 1 �AKKER: Well it’s my home. It’s where my husband grew up, and my *immediate+ family is here and, actually my *extended+ family is not here any longer they’ve moved away. I did live for a year in Holland or two years when I went to Hope College, and I lived one year in Florida, very glad I don’t live there anymore. , I have always felt the Muskegon had a certain diversity that I appreciated. Living in Florida in a city called Altarnonte Springs, I taught in a city called Sanford in an all-white school where they were very segregated and would not allow students of color into their school, which drove me nuts, that was not my life. So I was very glad to get back here. GORAJEC: Did race like, play a big role in your growing up? AKKER: I think racial tensions when I was little were very covert in Muskegon. I didn’t realize that we had any racial tensions. Angel school was, at the time, probably a very diverse school, but it would look very “white” today, but I had friends of all colors, friends of all ethnicities. I had two best friends, one was Jewish, one was black and that just never occurred to me that there was any problem, not in elementary school. When our neighbor, my first neighbors, sold their house to a black family, I found out what racism was because my parents were racist. They were extremely upset. GORAJEC: Can you tell me about your experience with that, like, were you surprised? AKKER: I was shocked. It’s like “what’s going on?” you know? It was not something that I really felt was a problem cause I had not felt any racial tensions, but, my parents continued to live there several years later. But it was something that I was aware of and as that house sold, many houses in our neighborhood went up for sale and that was probably my first real experience of understanding what racism was. I also had a very good friend who was black in elementary school and we went through sixth grade. So sixth grade went to, we got taken out to lunch with our teachers if we won the math quiz and my friend and I went out to lunch without teacher and we were not served because my friend was black. That was at Walgreen’s downtown, and no one realizes that Walgreen’s had a restaurant back then, before we had a mall, before the mall was torn down, so yeah, we were served, but much later than we had planned. Much later than when everyone else was served. GORAJEC: Have you, you said that you’ve traveled outside of west Michigan, has that affected your view of the world and where you come from in a way? Like how has that compared to here in west Michigan? AKKER: Hmm I’ve traveled through the United States, Mexico, Canada, and seven European countries and the world outside of Muskegon is much larger than people realize. I think that going to Europe really opened my eyes because Americans at the time that I was in Europe were not really appreciated. It was after Vietnam, but it was before some of the tensions that we have in the Middle East at this point, so we had that tension between the Cold War, I mean it was kind of??? and being in Europe and being in America after, even though I was in Western Europe and they were not a part of the so called “Iron Curtain” countries or the Soviet Union, there was still a certain amount of tension. the United States, just traveling around you see all types of people and it doesn’t matter what color they are. There are some very wealthy, very impoverished, and that’s what I see when I travel and I see different pockets of the country much different from Muskegon is or west Michigan. I have a very close friend in Kentucky who was taught in high school that slavery was necessary to run the tobacco fields in Kentucky, because that’s how they made their money, they didn’t have to learn economics. It was an industry that they had that they felt it was necessary. It wasn’t right but it was necessary. When she told me that I about died, I was like “whoa, this is not something I’m familiar with”. Page 2 �GORAJEC: You mentioned some of the major changes you’ve lived through; can you tell me about some that you had a personal connection with? AKKER: Well I have several things that I have personal connection with. First of all I have the first African American teacher at Angel school when Kennedy was assassinated, and Kennedy was a person that we have really no idea what kind of president he would have become had he served out two terms, but he was the kind of president that people worshipped. He was young and vibrant and he was definitely a person who wanted to see much more civil rights within our country. That being said, having an African American teacher kind of enhanced that, and we all got into watching his presidency and being so excited that we was president. And she really didn’t swear political beliefs, just wanted to present to us what was going on nationally in our government and being in fifth grade that was a lot to take in and then, being there on November 22 in school when it was announce he had been assassinated and having her as a teacher, going through that with her helped me understand just the kind of connection she had and it brought me into a connection with the Kennedys that has always been there. I have always been an infatuated person with the Kennedys. GORAJEC: Is there anything else? AKKER: yeah, several years ago, probably two or three, there was a movie made in west Michigan, in Muskegon actually, called “Up From the Bottoms.” It was about the influx of black people from the south to work in the north work in Muskegon in the factories as cheap labor during World War II, and they were actually housed in an area that was substandard from where most of the ordinary people in Muskegon lived. Well, my uncle was one of the people in the movie, he has since passed away, but he was one that was instrental in bringing them into Muskegon working for some of the labor factories. He was a personal director for a factory, but he was also one who had a personal transformation when he realized the living conditions and the ignorance that people in Muskegon had toward our “immigrants” you might say, coming in to work in our city, and he actually helped them find jobs or find homes that were suitable. But if you look at the makeup of Muskegon, you can see how Muskegon is laid out. If you go up Russell Road, in the North Muskegon area, you can see a congregation or, inhabitants of black in nature. You’ll see them in Muskegon Heights, and then they have immigrated and migrated into Muskegon. But that’s where the pockets were: Russell Road and Muskegon Heights. GORAJEC: Okay, have you seen any significant progress regarding quality in west Michigan throughout the years? AKKER: Oh yeah. When I talk about my growing up for years thinking that most racism was very covert, I have seen a tremendous change in the school’s makeup, our society’s makeup, how we view people. As I got older and I saw much more racism, I realized that we we’re supposed to all be created equal, so what’s going on with this little pocket of racism? So, I saw a transformation in people. Especially working in the position I do, in the school district I do. I’ve seen it evolve into an acceptance; not that you don’t see color, but an acceptance of everybody. It doesn’t matter what the color of a person’s skin is, it’s a matter of “Hey, you’re a kid and I’m going to go teach you!”, and so, that’s how I’ve seen a change. GORAJEC: Have you seen any areas where not much progress has been made? AKKER: In our court system. Page 3 �GORAJEC: Can you tell me more about that? AKKER: I still see a very large amount of people who are tried and being found, being tried for crimes, being jailed for crimes. And I can’t say that they aren’t guilty, but it just seems to me that there’s many more black people in our prison system than there is white. There’s also more Hispanic in our system than there is white, and that’s where I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it on advertisements on TV, there’s still an inequality. Oh, and probably in our law enforcement. There’s still inequality there, I still believe that people are targeted for their race in our law enforcement. GORAJEC: Do you feel that a lot of the progress is unjust like in the courts system or does it feel wrong to you at all? AKKER: Mhmm GORAJEC: Is there any specific reason? AKKER: I don’t have an answer for it yet, okay, it feels wrong. I can’t say people aren’t guilty that are being tried I just feel that more people are arrested that are black than of white skin color. GORAJEC: Okay, was there any point in your life that you felt discriminated by others or felt that you didn’t fit in for some reasons? AKKER: I’m a woman, and I’ve been alive for fifty plus years. I’ve seen discrimination because I am a woman. , I have lost out on jobs. Not necessarily in teaching, but other jobs because I am a woman. As I started my career, I worked in management at a hospital and I lost out on a couple of the higher management positions because I am female. I have evolved into not seeing that anymore, maybe because in teaching I don’t think there is a discrimination between male and female, but there certainly was as I was growing into an adult, going into school, wanting to take certain classes being told “Eh, you know, you’re a female, you probably shouldn’t have goals to do that. You should be a secretary, or a nurse. That was the things I was told rather than ‘be anything you want’.” GORAJEC: Okay, have there been any moments in your life that you faced adversity in a memorable way? AKKER: Hmm well this has nothing to do with diversity. But, as a young child I was teased because I had a wart, so I mean, students teased me. I was teased as a youngster, because I was not terribly athletic, but I became athletic as I grew older. , I was fearful of....well, I don’t know what I was fearful as a youngster, but I became more athletic so I faced adversity as I was teased, but I think that as I’ve grown older I haven’t faced a lot of adversity. Gee, that’s terrible I should think about that. Maybe I’ve blocked some of it out! I don’t know, I was never as smart as I wanted to be, even though I was very smart. , but adversity is within the person, but not society. GORAJEC: you’ve already talked a little about your relationship with the civil rights movement, but have you or somebody you know ever been personally affected by the time period as a whole? AKKER: During the early seventies, when we had some real racial tensions, it was after the Civil Rights Movement, after Martin Luther King was assassinated, we still had some real racial tensions here in Muskegon. My brother in law was driving home from a place on Wood Street where he worked, and he Page 4 �had his window open, and he drove down Jackson Avenue, and at the time it was a stereotypical area where people of my race would fear because there were a lot of uprisings against whites. But, his car window was open and somebody threw a pop bottle at him, and cut his face all the way down where he had to have stitches, and to this day my, brother in law can’t even talk to me without having some type of racial slur, even though I’ve talked and talked and talked to him that that was an isolated incident. Things have changed, we have all changed, no matter what race we are, but that has continuously stayed with him. And other than that, the riots I have countered growing up, I was actually in Chicago in April 1968 when King was assassinated, and there were riots all over the streets, and we were shocked. We didn’t know what to do. We were actually escorted out of Chicago to get safely on the highway because of total chaos going on in the city. And that was a scary thing for somebody who was 14 years old. GORAJEC: Do you personally have any civil rights heroes? AKKER: Martin Luther King. , Civil Rights in America, or the world? Because Nelson Mandela is one of my heroes and will always be one for standing up and going to jail. I mean, Martin Luther King went to jail too, but not for 27 years. , to stand up against a party, to stand up against your government and become president of your government is just something that is amazing to me. , a person like a Malcolm X, who takes the “X” as his last name because he has a “slave name”, you know, he has a “name of his master”, as you want to say or speak about it, and even though he was militant, even though he really reacted militantly against so many governmental programs and people, he came to terms with himself. He did convert to Islam, he did become a peaceful person who on his pilgrimage really realized what his heart needed to be, and that really caused his death and caused his people to t against him. John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, you know, there are people all through my growing up years that I’m going to say are probably heroes of mine, because they all had something to do. Even President Johnson people don’t realize how impassioned he was upon civil rights. GORAJEC: Is there any reason why they are significant to you personally or do you just admire them? AKKER: They’re significant because I lived it, and because I saw and followed what they did all throughout my life. My parents, even though there were racial tensions within my family, my parents were very politically in tune with things, and made sure we knew what was going on in the world. I sometimes think that people had distorted images or thoughts or understanding of what was going on, and I think that because my parents were the way they were, I had more of an insight. GORAJEC: Okay, well moving on to your career as a teacher, can you tell me about the predominate background of your students at Muskegon High School? AKKER: Muskegon is an intercity, urban school, and we do say “intercity, urban” because we do include Lakeside and do include Glenside, and those are areas that wealthier (whether that’s good or bad), and that includes outlying areas: the “intercity” of Muskegon. Muskegon has changed drastically since I was a child. There’s a tremendous amount of poverty and, people who aren’t in poverty don’t understand how poverty works, and so the values of my “poverished students” are different from the people in my class, middle class lower middle class, whatever. That being said, the backgrounds of my students fall into several different categories with poverished, to the people whose parents work, to the people who might have a lawyer, doctor, or teacher or professor as a parent. That’s the vast difference when you look at the breakdown of test scores for our school. We are still considered an urban school, and that works against us for testing, unfortunately. Page 5 �GORAJEC: Do you think that.., because the background of the students is so diverse, do you think that has any effect on the school as a whole? AKKER: I think it makes it better. I think it makes everyone understand each other. I mean, I do see pockets of racism. I can’t help it. I can go down to the cafeteria and see an all white table, and an all African American table, and all Hispanic table. But, then I also see an all football team player table, and an all baseball team player table. I would like to see more mix in that. Then, in my classes I don’t, and maybe I’m blind to it, but I don’t see a lot of racism. I see a lot of people working together. GORAJEC: Do you that because students are more willing to mix together in the classroom does that make you feel better? AKKER: It makes me feel better about the fact that my school is probably one of all the schools in the Muskegon country area, my school is most diverse, and I say that because we do have a percentage of African American, a percentage of Hispanic, and a percentage of white. The percentage of African American is higher than white or Hispanic, but it’s not as high as it is in our other schools, and the white population is not as high as it is in other schools. Which, I think helps us become little more diverse, and have more understating of the world around us. GORAJEC: In your career as a teacher have you ever had any memorable instance where one of your students has been discrimination against or faced adversity? AKKER: Yeah, probably too many to come up with right at this moment, and I can’t even think of one specific reason or adverse condition. I’ve had students who are homeless, I’ve had students come to me and say “I don’t have a clean pair of clothes, and people are going to laugh at me cause I’m going to start to smell”. I’ve had students whose parents have just up and left, and they’ve stayed there behind, and that to me is the ultimate in adversity because you’re trying to handle school, and trying to handle whatever extracurricular activities you have, as well as trying to find a home. GORAJEC: Do you think that because you have seen adversity in that way you feel more connected with your students? AKKER: Oh yeah. I’ve heard from people who have been with other teachers from other school districts who look at us and say “How do you do what you do? You go to school, you stay all day, you give kids your phone numbers, you give kids rides home, you do this, you do that. How can you have that kind of connection?” Well, because they don’t have that connection. GORAJEC: So as teacher, do you think that it is important to have that relationship with your student? AKKER: Absolutely, I want my students to trust me. I want my students, if they have any problems, to feel comfortable enough to come talk to me. Whether they tell me their problem or they say “I need help”. I need to know that so that I can point them in the right direction. I think it’s the function of any teacher, but you find it more with urban sprawl. GORAJEC: Have you ever seen the diversity in Muskegon affect the education of the students in any way? Page 6 �AKKER: Ah, yeah. I don’t see that it affects the students in what we teach them, I mean, at this point. What it does, what we’re affected by now is our government interceding and saying “Oh, by the way, your test scores are low; you are going to be evaluated lower. If your test scores are low we are not going to give you as much money,” and everything is dealing with test scores, and no one is looking at the family makeup, no one is looking at the support that our students have, besides the teachers or in school. They’re only looking at “This is the makeup of your test scores,” and instead of dealing with the real problem, which is probably the breakdown of the family, maybe no parental supervision because mom is working five jobs or dad is maybe out of the picture or in prison. I mean, those things happen. And our government just looks at what the teachers do based on test scores. Then I see, as racism or something that is radically wrong with our system, because if you look at the test scores of a suburban school, and I use Mona Shores because my children graduated from Mona Shores, (like that nor not), if you look at the test scores at Mona Shores they’re higher compared to a little bit of a more diverse school. But, many of those kids come from families where their parents are college-educated and employed. Our students are not necessarily from parents like that, or houses like that or homes, you name it. And so because my children, and I can only speak for my children alone, came from a home with two college graduates, they were made to do their homework, they were . . .they traveled everywhere, they saw everything. They had more of a connection to the world than maybe my students have, who have maybe not even seen the shores of Lake Michigan and they live in Muskegon. GORAJEC: Do you think that limits the students in a way? AKKER: I think it limits, our ability to teach the students the best we can because we continually teach to the test because we have to get our students up to the levels that will pass the test in order to become proficient with anything. We are judged by the progress, and if we do not make that a priority, we will not get the funding that we need. And this is happening at Muskegon Heights, which is just a total travesty for the kids there. GORAJEC: Can you tell me a little bit about what’s happening at Muskegon Heights? I haven’t heard anything about that. AKKER: Muskegon Heights has been taken over. , it’s very much in debt and that isn’t necessarily the government’s fault. , but test scores are low. The teachers are doing the best they can. But they have some major problems with funding. They can’t pay teachers and possibly, well intermediate has taken over as far as a superintendent and they are looking at other options. So they do not know what is going on right now. GORAJEC: Do you think that, as a whole, the STMRS community gained a lot from the civil rights struggle, regarding the community makeup and the students and parents? AKKER: That’s a hard one because I think that there has been a major amount of progress in some areas, and in other areas there wasn’t progress at all. , just judging by the people that I’ve known all my life, that may be who I went to school with or who I go to church with, and they are not necessarily as whole on understanding diversity as I am because of whatever they do in this world. They’re not necessarily teachers. And they have some real prejudices set up, and I think that that affects the diversity in the community. GORAJEC: Do you think that, currently, there are issues in Muskegon that need civil rights advocacy? Page 7 �AKKER: Well, yeah because civil rights expand to so much more than things just based on race. There’s gender, there’s disabilities, there’s employment. Who will get the best job? Who will go into a restaurant? Who will be hired first at a job? You know, would it be a white person or would it be a person that is African American or Hispanic? I still can’t solve our problems within our society. But I also think that the knowledge that people need is lacking, because knowledge gives us power. And if we don’t understand and have knowledge of people in general and how they work, they’ll never be fixed. GORAJEC: Is there anything else that you would like to add? AKKER: You know, it’s really funny because you are asking pointed questions that I am all of a sudden going “Huh! I don’t know”. , through all my life I’ve seen definite change. I don’t think that I’ve really emphasized how much change that I’ve seen in Muskegon and in Muskegon High School. When I was a student coming to classes here at Muskegon High School, my mother taught here. The classes were tracked. And so, when you have tracked classes you have people who said quote, unquote “These are the smarter kids.” And well, those classes were predominantly white. “And these are the kids that are struggling,” and those classes were predominantly made up of minorities, at the time mostly African American and possibly some Hispanic. My mother had that impression. When I first started teaching here, she would say “Do you have any honors classes, or all of your classes black?” And I’d look at her and go (makes face) “Ahhh, my classes have all colors in them.” Because my mother was still of that mindset. She was a great teacher, but she was still of that mindset that’s how you are tracking classes. And that doesn’t say to me that all white kids are going to be successful, and all classes with kids of different ethnicities, or minorities, aren’t. Because that’s not true. But I still think that people have that little bit of mindset, and so we don’t track classes other than International Baccalaureate or obviously AP. GORAJEC: Is there anything else about Muskegon as a whole that you’d like to mention? AKKER: Well, it’s changed. The demographics of Muskegon have changed drastically. First of all, you have a downtown section that has stores that people that live in Muskegon can go to, and then you tear it down and you put the mall out in Fruitport. Which is ridiculous. I mean, we all go to the mall, we all love the mall, but then the people who live in poverty in the center of Muskegon have no place to go. So what do we do? We have the city founders coming in, or the city government come in, and say ‘let’s build up Muskegon!’ So you put all these expensive shops in downtown Muskegon, bordering on the demographics of the impoverished of Muskegon, so the poor still can’t go buy anything. And then the couple places that you have that may be inviting to people who are of maybe a lower class, those are (post dp?). And so, that’s what I see with the change in Muskegon. When I grew up we had a downtown. I grew up and I walked right down to Apple Avenue down to stores downtown. I think driving in downtown Muskegon is beautiful, but it does not lend itself to helping those, who surround that area, who have no place to go. GORAJEC: Is there anything else? AKKER: You know, it’s really hard for me to talk about because there’s been so much change and I don’t know where to begin to have a timeline of the change. Great, from the time I was a little girl to the time I live now, I have been involved with Muskegon Public Schools in one way or another. My parents graduated from here in 1935. So I have seen the change, not that I was alive in 1935, but I’ve seen the change in my lifetime. Yet, it has been a gradual change and I don’t see it as drastically as some of the other teachers would say ‘Well, I remember 15 or so years ago when my classes weren’t like they are Page 8 �today,” and they probably weren’t, but it’s been a gradual change for me. And so, I don’t see that as a negative. I see that as part of my job. GORAJEC: Is there anything else that you would like to add? AKKER: You know, I am a child of the civil rights age. I am a child of watching changes, going through the Cold War; I am a Cold War child. I’ve seen ideologies that include the fear of communism. I’ve seen drills that we had in school because we were going to be bombed. And I think that all played into almost making, at least in the sixties, making civil rights more of a minor problem. And it was really a major problem. And I think that we have already seen politicians correct that in some ways. I mean my goodness, in 2008 we elected an African American as president. Never, in my lifetime, did I think that I’d ever see that GORAJEC: Okay, well, thank you so much for your time! AKKER: Thanks END OF INTERVIEW Page 9 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4cad70488270817fd77546c5afc1a551.mp3 a73af457cd5adfa9fb8ccbba13db29ce Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Akker_Arlene Title A name given to the resource Arlene Akker audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Akker, Arlene Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gorajec, Kelly Bailey, L. Harter, B. Huyser, Z. Description An account of the resource Arlene Akker is a teacher at Muskegon High school. She was born and raised in Muskegon Heights. She discusses racism and diversity growing up in Muskegon Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Racism Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f97d56532bbfd21221c3bad56363ab1.pdf 2265684e24c24e93d72fcd10122331e0 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Judith Claytor Interviewers: Paige Goote Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/22/2011 Biography and Description Judith Claytor was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She graduated from Western Michigan University with a degree in sociology/social work. She discusses the racial and religious differences between living in Grand Rapids and Washington D.C. and attending Western Michigan University. Transcript Paige Goote (GOOTE): My name is Paige Goote and I'm here today interviewing Judith Claytor and its November 22 about 3 o’clock in the afternoon and we are in Grand Rapids Michigan. So today we are here to interview you about your experience with civil rights, in Western Michigan specifically. So I guess we can start with, we can start with some basic information about you. So how old are you? Judith Claytor (CLAYTOR): I am 64. Where do you want me to go with this? GOOTE: What I have here is full name, place and date of birth. CLAYTOR: I am Judith Claytor, I was born in Grand Rapids, in fact was brought home from the hospital to this very house and I... grew up here in Grand Rapids. Went through elementary through high school here. And then went to Western Michigan University and then as an adult moved away and then came back to take care of my...very elderly mother. And have remained here since her death, in 2005. GOOTE: Okay, so you've always been in West Michigan. CLAYTOR: No, I was in Washington D.C. for 30 years. GOOTE: Okay so we went from here to Washington D.C. What did you do in Washington D.C.? CLAYTOR: And I lived in Peru for a couple of years. I married a foreign services officer right out of Western Michigan University and so I was a diplomats wife in Peru for two years, and then we got posted back to D.C. and then... I decided our marriage was not... working out. And I fired him. That’s what I did, I fired him. He was using me as a punching bag and I didn't feel like being such. But be that as it is, that is over and done and I stayed in D.C. my original degree from Western was in sociology/social work, they didn't, they were just developing a social work major as I was leaving and they had a minor in social work and that’s what I did. And so after I got back to D.C. I started doing work that was social service related not necessarily pure social work. I worked for the District of Columbia government as an Page 1 �assistant in the, for the city council. And that was a very unusual experience because the District of Columbia is like no place else, basically in the world, because it's not a state and at the time when I first got there, we could not even vote for the President of the United States. Much less have any representation in Congress. And it’s still that there is no voting representation in Congress, we can vote if you are a District of Columbia resident, you can vote for the President of the United States but as far as being represented that’s it. And the District of Columbia budget has to be approved by Congress even though, even all the amount of money raised in the district. And Congress does supplement some because of all the federal buildings that are part of the district but it is not as generous a compensation as would happen if there was a military installation in a particular state or in a particular region because there are local representatives that would make sure the reimbursement to that area would be far more generous. And so the District of Columbia has to operate in a really peculiar fashion and so you learn a whole lot about government in funny ways and you learn about both the federal and the local government in funny ways because they are so intertwined. GOOTE: I never thought about any of that CLAYTOR: Oh and nobody does, and there is no reason to unless you're right nearby. And so in the job I had I had to sometimes write testimony for my bosses to defend our budget at Congressional hearings. So it was part of my job, on Capitol Hill, defending the District of Columbia’s budget, it was local government but it was odd. So, that was one of the things. GOOTE: Wow. Do you feel like there was a difference between how you were treated in Washington D.C. and West Michigan? CLAYTOR: Oh absolutely. I mean Western Michigan is a place unto itself and I obviously didn't understand nearly how unique it was until I was in the District of Columbia. I remember one of the most startling things that came to my attention was I joined an Episcopal church whose pastor or rector was the son of an RCA pastor. And when growing up here in Grand Rapids I had no idea that there was a different between the Reformed Church of America and the Christian Reformed Church. I just figured they were all Dutch people and they all went to the Reformed Church of some sort and that was it. There wasn't much more to know particularly. But after I met this uh upstanding clergy person, who was also somewhat of a snob, he kind of was... speaking kind of disparagingly of the CRC folks and I thought, "Oh what’s that all about and then began to be more kind of interested in how that developed. The differences between the two denominations and how they came to be two different denominations and one thing and another. And there is another telling piece of how that happened. When I went to, for some reason or another, I don't remember why I was there, but I was in the office of the Roman Catholic bishop’s council or whatever it's called but the organization of the national bishops of the Roman Catholic Church. And they had a map, and it was color coded by region or county or something that would tell you what the predominate denominational affiliation was for the county, for the region, whatever. And there were different colors assigned to main line denominations and there was this bright blue color for "other". And all of Utah was "other" and we could kind of understand that, those of us looking at the map, and all of w Michigan was other and by that point I was the only one who had a clue as to what that "other" meant, but the fact a whole group of people migrated from the Netherlands to the united states to practice a more conservative form of their religion, and it was a whole group of people men women children, the whole shebang that set up here and they set up the whole support system to practice the religion as they wanted too, it ended up having a much greater impact on the community than you would imagine. Really. Page 2 �GOOTE: So did you grow up religious? CLAYTOR: Yeah, I've always been an Episcopalian. My mother was an Episcopalian, and her mother before her was an Episcopalian. But being an Episcopalian here in GR was kind of rare. People looked at you like what in the world is that? And I got to DC and I didn't see any CRC or Reformed churches. RCA types and then later on I found one RCA church and when I got back here I looked up on the computer and there was one CRC church in the whole of the District of Columbia and I thought oh is that interesting. And of course there were Episcopal churches all over the place and so it was a whole different dynamic both religiously and then I began to realize culturally. Because the the way of doing things culturally I think because of a lot of them, at least in the earlier days, the people who relocated here, kind of had a closed group of socialization or what not. And if you were outside that, you were just kind of outside of it. And it created a much more conservative environment and so even now I find that there is much less just plain 'old socialization. Socializing among different groups of people I imagine with young people it's getting better. But Grand Rapids and Western Michigan is so overwhelmingly dominated by couples, if you're not part of a couple, you can hang it up. And in Washington, if you lived and breathed and were friendly with somebody there were gatherings of people who would get together. And there would be married folks and single folks and people of this or that ethic group you know what I mean it was just kind of a mixture and I find that to be much more, it just doesn't occur much here. GOOTE: So would you say that you felt more excluded on the basis of religion and didn't deal as much with being discriminated by your race? CLAYTOR: uh nuh. Race and Religion were kind of all, it was a both and. I mean when my parents bought this house, or my father did cause he married a widow with a child, and, actually a mother. He had set up his medical practice here and had a difficult time as an African American physician setting up a practice. And he had decided he wasn't going to marry until he could support a family. That was just how he saw it. And he actually lived in a rooming house until he married Momma and bought this house. And he couldn't get any of the real estate agents to show him any houses outside the ghetto. And if you look at that portrait up there he doesn't look particularly African American, he kind of could be a lot of different things but the real estate people knew his ethnicity and just wouldn’t show him places and so he meandered around and bought this house from the owner. And he went and got a mortgage from the bank where he had his accounts. Mostly I understand from him, he did that to open the doors so that other African Americans could get mortgages. 'Cause he had been saving so long for his life that he could have bought the house straight out if he wanted to, and ultimately did, when the banker kind of said, "oh well you were late with a payment and he said will you look at the accounts I have with your bank?" and the guy did and he said, "will you transfer some money and pay this mortgage off?" 'Cause ya know, this nonsense, cause, he felt it was total nonsense to be aggravated that way. And then when I came along as his first natural child I went to school and the kids I guess were told there was going to be a black kid in their class and I didn't particularly stand out in a way that would be meaningful to another kindergartener and so they apparently went home and said well no we didn't see one. So then they came back with my name and then said are you colored or are you white and so when I said I was colored they started calling me nigger. And I could tell even though I didn't know about that word, I could tell that it was negative and that they weren’t playing with me. So I believe the story is that I came home and told my mother since they couldn't figure out if I was colored or white I was going to tell them I was a medi. And I don't know if I ever did that but that's how I felt. There was always this exclusion, and since I was the only medi or colored kid or whatever in the school there was always that cloud saying that maybe you're not quite the same as everybody else. And that there is something Page 3 �wrong with you. And then by the time I hit Junior High, we didn't have middle schools then, we had a Junior High which was a newfangled idea, and , then , I, then I had ultimately become part of the fabric of the elementary school. And was invited to birthday parties and what not, and that was alright, but then when they started having parties where they would invite boys I was all the sudden no longer welcome. And so the whole group of friends that I had known before just plain dropped me. Period. Ya know, end of story. And so I was able to make new friends and these were the girls that were not interacting with boys and so forth and they were wonderful friends, but it was just the fact there was this immediate shift, just, ya know, for no apparent reason. That that was kind of uncomfortable and then ya know I'd come home and my parents would begin to explain to me what was going on. And then we did, momma did have us going to an Episcopal church that was a historically African American church and that was on the other side of town. But it was hard to be hooked in to the group of kids that went to that church because most everybody went to school across town. And I didn't know anybody and I was kind of shy and so from what I was told, or I figured it out and had it confirmed by some of my classmates when I got to college at Western, that they all decided that because I was shy and quiet that I was stuck up because not only was I an African American living outside the normal neighborhood ghetto, whatever you want to call it, where most of the black people lived at the time. They decided since I was the daughter of a physician that I must be stuck up. And I wasn't, but I was just feeling out of place, I didn't seem to fit anywhere, and it was a pretty bleak kind of experience. GOOTE: Did that continue through high school? CLAYTOR: Oh yeah. GOOTE: So was it any different when you went to Western? CLAYTOR: Yeah it was because there wasn't as much, I mean; Western didn't just have folks from Grand Rapids. I was able to go ahead and just be me. And I did join a predominately African American sorority because, just, ya know, just to make it clear that my personal orientation was on target, because now with your generation kids who, young people who come up with .. Various complexions and looking different can easily discuss both sides of their family "well I've got a white mom I've got a black dad," but for us in my age group the mixing of races so to speak, if you want to call it that was involuntary. My father's parents were slaves. And the...matralinical line was often ... you know... abused by the masters and bore children. Ya know because no matter if you want to go in to the Sally Hemmings sort of mentality and think of that as being a love affair of some sort, the female didn’t have any choice in it particularly. If she was chosen by the master there might have been some benefits to it, there might not, but it was not an equal kind of relationship. And so all of us up until...maybe...the generation after me was kind of ashamed of this history. , just didn't want to talk about it and my mother decided that I should have an opportunity to read some books and learn about the caste and class system that developed in the African American community after slavery was ended. And what happened with the delineation among the people who had been, more closely aligned with the master of the house, or of the plantation or of the farm or whatever it was. Because often times it was the progeny of those relationships that were treated with greater deference or at least those folks had a better opportunity to see how the white folks did things and survive. 'Cause the system in actual slavery was when the people were first brought over from Africa they were separated from any of the people of their tribes or anything so you did not have the cultural cohesion that other immigrant groups get when they come. They come and they set up their churches, their this's thats and the others and there is a certain cultural bond. But if you are deliberated separated from people that speak your same languages and have your same cultural practices, it gets diluted and then the culture that developed among the slaves in general Page 4 �was something that they had to cobble together from what little they could remember from before. And then it would be from a lot of different regions and so it wasn't... it was all new. And there was no way of saying, then for those that were products of these illicit relationships, there was no way to say, "well I can trace my history back through, on my momma's side it was this and on my father's side it was that." Because the father’s side was just rendered to being something you couldn't claim. Although in the South there is a funny way people do sort of know and claim some of it. But in terms of inheritance and that sort of thing. No GOOTE: So just for dates, when did you start college? CLAYTOR: 1965 GOOTE: Okay and when, your dad started his practice here, where did he come from? He moved to Western Michigan from? CLAYTOR: Roanoke, VA GOOTE: When was that approximately? CLAYTOR: Early 30's GOOTE: And your mother? CLAYTOR: She came in the early 40's (She’s eating lunch) CLAYTOR: Yeah, my father grew up on a farm... that his father had established after he was emancipated, and from my father tells me, is that granddad left the plantation and did not look back. Did not want 40 acres or a mule or anything else from the plantation owner. Now arguable, he looked just, the familiar relationship, resemblance is what I'm looking for not relationship, resemblance, was very strong. You could almost not from appearance tell the difference between legitimate and illegitimate children. But at any rate Grandpa, according to Daddy was just was sick of it all and he went and established a prosperous farm. In Floyd County VA which is outside Roanoke somewhere. I haven't looked carefully at the map to get a sense of that. But, and, I do believe it is still in family hands and he and my Grandma Judith, after who I'm named, set up this farm and had 13 kids. And I believe I am the second to the last of 50, I know I'm the second to the last, but I think there were 56 of us in the generation. And my father was the youngest of 13 children and didn’t start producing anybody until he was 50 which are how I get back to having my actual grandparents being slaves. Because they were pretty old when daddy was born, and he was pretty old when he started produced children of his own. So most people my age would not be able to say that their grandparents were, had been slaves. GOOTE: And what was your dad’s full name? CLAYTOR: Robert Claytor. Robert W. He didn't like to use his middle name so I ain't gonna do it. GOOTE: So he came here and started his practice, did he ever talk about how that was difficult? Did he know anybody here? He just chose Grand Rapids off the map and wanted to come up here? Page 5 �CLAYTOR: Something that like that. He went to Meherry Medical College and he had gone. Well he waited until 21 to leave the farm. Because he was the youngest he felt that he owed his parents, waiting until he was 21 to help on the farm before he left. But they only had a one room school that went only through the 8th grade. And actually the older ones would go to a normal school and learn how to teach, and then go back and teach in the one room school. And so that level of education was pretty solid, but it wasn't a high school education. So then he had to spend some time to earn some tuition, to go to a high school. But it was a boarding school since they didn't have a high school black people could go to in Floyd County so he went to Petersburg, Virginia where I think (I can't remember the current name because it has become a college) and got his high school done. He was in his early twenties by that time. Then he went onto the University of Pennsylvania to the Wharton school. He was going on along in that field. The professors there told him in order to succeed in business he would have to start passing as a white because there wouldn't be much of a future for him if he claimed his African American identity. He was taking no part in that nonsense so he completed his bachelors at Northwestern with a pre-med zoology major. At Northwestern they told him if he wanted to go to medical school there he could as long as he didn't touch anybody. He couldn't even watch a white woman give birth, and could only watch an African American woman give birth, but he couldn't touch anybody. And he didn't think that was such a fine was to learn to be a physician. So he went to Meherry Medical College which was one of the historical African American medical colleges. And he graduated from there and while he was at Northwestern he met some wealthy person from Evanston who offered him a job and he went up to North Port Point outside of Traverse City to work during this summer. She just paid him what was tuition. From what he tells me, he had a brother who had become a pharmacist, his next oldest brother because there was one in between him and that brother who had died after World War I, I think he was exposed to nerve gas or something. At any rate, he had approached his brother and said why don't we go to medical school together? My uncle said "okay, fine," but I think, as I recall, I don't keep these dates in my head, but that was around the depression. My father, in his frugle ways, had socked away under his mattress or something so he had tuition to go to the medical school for his brother. What I understand from my father, this lady had decided she was going to pay for tuition for the both of them to go to medical school because my uncle was already married I believe when the notion of going to medical school had occurred. And others of his brothers had gone to Meherry I think one had become a Physician and one a dentist so there was a family tradition there. SO they finished medical school and I think ended up back in Chicago doing a residency. So daddy had a sense of Michigan from being up north with his family that he had worked for. There seemed to be a need for an African American physician here and one in Saginaw. Apparently there was a practice (in Saginaw) my uncle could buy or just ask, and since he had a family, my daddy said okay you go there here and I'll stay in Grand Rapids since there where there needs to be more ground work done, because I can do that. So that's how he ended up here. So he was doing whatever he was doing, living in this rooming house and so forth. And my mom, who was a widow, she had gone to the University from Minnesota. She had graduated from there and was there with her high school or childhood sweet-heart and so it was almost a foregone conclusion that they were going to marry. But ma had promised her parents that she would wait until she finished college. Her mother pushed her to wait a year after finishing college and go work some place. So mama went to work some place, and it took her 6 months to learn the job, and to leave after only 6 months of doing, she didn't like that idea. And her fiancé I guess we called him was getting annoyed for keepin coming up with these excuses, because from what I gather my grandma, my mother's mother wanted my mother not to get married at all but to do things and just get famous with her maiden name. So mama says she went off to New York where her sisters were living, and she was working in Trenton. So she secretly married her beloved and went back to work, but the secret marriage made him happier that she was making the commitment and was trying to assuage (?) her mother's notions of what to do. And so after she finished the second year working at the job with the YWCA in Page 6 �Trenton she married her beloved. He was working in Kansas City as a journalist working on the African American Newspaper in Kansas City. I believe his brother was also out there doing something but I can't get all those particulars together. But at any rate, they were out there and setting up their life, and had a little baby boy, my brother Roger. Shortly after Roger was born, his father Earl got Tuberculosis, and was in a Sanitari. And so mama had to become the principle bread-winner. This was also the depression times so it was a complicated situation and Grandma had to move in to help take care of Roger while mama worked. And then, Earl got out of the sanitari and was working at home, but could only work part-time. They had, I think, disabled one of his lungs. I don't believe it was removed but it didn't work. He was weak and couldn't work full time. Mama ultimately took a job after consulting with the whole family including her husband, and her mother and her brother in law and my God-mother, ya know a confab (?). I found all this out from my God-Mother. And they agreed that Mama should take a job with the national YWCA but it would require a lot of traveling and it was actually based in New York City. And so her husband was still recuperating in Kansas City with her mother and my brother, I mean her mother taking care of both Earl and my brother. while Mama was traveling around a lot and while she was traveling she was doing interracial studies of YWCA's throughout the country. And she came to Grand Rapids to make a speech on said topic, and ran in to one bachelor physician named Claytor. And she had been in Roanoke, where lots of his relatives were living. And in the South, black people couldn't stay in hotels. So mama, the YWCA arranged for them, the black women who were traveling, to stay with families that had space. And my Uncle John, who was also a physician, had space in his house. He had a huge, well, huge by Mamas and Daddy's standards, he had 8 children. And some of them were already grown and gone and already physicians and what not, and so when Mama met Daddy and he looked just like his brother, she said, "Oh, are you one of Dr. Claytor's sons form Roanoke?" And Daddy said, "No, I'm his brother." But he was intrigued she knew the Roanoke people so he invited her out to dinner. And, as I gather, the rest is history. And so they developed a communication and then they developed a relationship, and they settled here. And so then Daddy came and bought this house for us to live in. And the neighbors were not pleased when he bought it. HE tells me the guy who owned it, when he found out Daddy was black; he tried to buy it back. And the neighbors, some of them, were not happy. And then there were a few neighbors who said, "Let's wait a bit, and give 'em a chance and see if they are okay." And it's kind of funny when you figure that clearly my parents, I believe, were the only people in the whole neighborhood who had a college education. Duh. But somehow they were going to drop the property values. It was sort of dopey. But there it was. And so that’s that kind of ancient history. GOOTE: Did your parents ever tell you any particular stories of like, them being discriminated against besides the housing? Did any stories stick out in your childhood? CLAYTOR: Oh I don’t know. They are so common as part of the fabric of... GOOTE: Or for you for that instance, growing up does anything stick out? CLAYTOR: Well, there was one thing that did stick out, does stick out. , kind of, profoundly I guess. Is that I was, yah know I made the best of my days in high school ya know and fashioned a pretty comfortable situation. And I sang in the choir at Creston high school and had lots, some friends from the choir and one thing and another. I had a pretty happy existence and I was a member of the NAACP Youth Council. And that was mostly black kids. And yet one of the guys from Creston decided to join it. And he was in the class ahead and was sort of a big man on campus kind of guy and was sort of interested in a lot of different things. We were going to have a dance, and so he invited me to go to the dance. And I was kind of dbfounded because no one asked me on a date for anything given this odd situation. And there was like one other African American in that guy’s class, which was the class ahead of me, and he was the son Page 7 �of friends of the family, but his parents were often trying to push him to be involved with me which sort of drove him away. When we could have banded together and just survived high school together for the social stuff it sometimes didn't happen. I did go out with him a couple of different times. At any rate, for this thing this guy invited me, and oh I believe the day or so before the event was supposed to happen, he came to the door, he came in, I don't even think he sat down, but he told me that his mother didn’t want him to take me to this dance. You know, because it was going to be interracial dating. And I was smart enough at the time, when he invited me, to know he wasn't really trying to push for me being his girlfriend but it was to go to the dance with someone he'd seen or heard of before. But still for me it was like, a date. Ya know. My god, someone actually asked me on a date. Ya know, and so it was really disappointing. And my family had been worried about something like this happening. Anyway and so when it came time for the dance, we decided that I was still going to go. And my Father actually dressed up and escorted me in to the, ya know, it was at some hotel downtown. And so he escorted me up the elevator and in to the space where the dance was held. Not that he was going to stay and be a chaperone but he didn't want me to feel like I had to stroll in there all by myself. And then there were some other girls there who didn’t have dates. But going from the position of thinking I was going to have a date to not having one that really was hurtful. And there were other things that were hurtful but just not as quite as in your face. GOOTE: So would you say it was more of the insidious backhanded things versus an outright comment or nothing ever got violent? CLAYTOR: No, it wasn't violence or anything like that. It was more of the insidious type stuff. Where people, were all the sudden I would be ostracized from something where I had been involved before. And when it got to be the boy girl thing, I was no longer part of that group of people or it was it was just this quiet kind of ostracism and it was ostracism on both sides of the fence so to speak because I didn't have that much interest coming from the black community either. I was just kind of left out there in the wind. And I had learned from the stuff Mama had me reading and so forth about sociology and what not and I began to understand why it happened. But I couldn't really do much until I got to college and was able to begin to function outside of that whole... GOOTE: Would you say that it would have been the same if West Michigan didn't have that predominant religious, Dutch aspect? Do you think that was a big part of it or... CLAYTOR: It was part of it, but not, it was more a product of the times. , 'cause the religious stuff just has made this community more conservative. And kind of, for a long time, adhering to some of the social norms that were more common in that community. But that interracial stuff wasn't common anywhere. GOOTE: Would you say there was a big difference from when you left to go to Washington D.C. and came back 30 years later? CLAYTOR: Yup, I mean yeah, there was a difference to a certain extent. And yet to another extent no. Because this whole business about the couples thing. , I came back and started going back to the same church I'd gone to as a kid. And people I'd known and stuff would never say, "well, we're having an open house at Christmas time, come." It just wasn't something that happened. And this had been common in D.C. among the people I knew from church. We became kind of a community that did things socially and one thing and anything and it didn't require that we had a mate in order to do the things. And there would be gatherings and everyone would sit down and running their mouths about whatever and, it was just an easier interplay among people but in Grand Rapids with all this conversation about healing Page 8 �racism and one thing and another. I wasn't seeing terribly much of a difference in that kind of interaction from when I was a kid. Going around and talking about race relations. 'Cause I did set up a group of teenagers that were doing this because my parents were prominent in the community and as the Civil Rights Movement, the Modern Civil Rights Movement was taking hold. People were trying to explore the feelings of prejudice and segregation and this that and the other. And so there was group called the Panel of Americans that adults were doing where they would go around and have representatives of racial and ethnic groups. And so there might be a Jew, and a Catholic, and an African American, and a WASP. Ya know, a group. So I rbled around and found my friends who were of various and sundry backgrounds and said, "ok" 'cause there were people that were asking me to do it, go around and talk about what it was like to be black and I'd be sitting up in some classroom someplace talking to a bunch of folks and that just began to feel stupid. And so we set up a Panel of Americans and we were doing the same things the adults were doing. And we actually got one of the leaders of that group there was a priest in town, a Roman Catholic priest who was really can't...****PHONE RINGS*** Excuse me. (She asked for the tape recorder to be turned off. I was coughing so I went to get a drink and paused the recording.) GOOTE: Okay and we are going again. CLAYTOR: Okay, at any rate. We had a meeting of the people that got recruited to be in this group. And, and we would go around and talk about ya know, how much the same we were. Rather than difference in terms of aspirations and one thing or anything. And it didn't matter whether we were Jewish or Christian or Black or White or anything. And that was pretty interesting but I find when I came back these 30 or 40 years later, 'cause you have to figure that I was in college for a while and all that but when I'm coming back and they are having all these institutes for healing racism and what not I'm finding that in the community there is still a lot of this separation. That people aren't just comfortably socializing with each other. And at some point I've talked with younger people who are coming in to the community and they find some of that same kind of stuff going on. I have a feeling now with the increased influx of people to be working at Van Andel Institute and going to the Medical College and Grand Valley's programs growing up and one thing and another that some of this maybe will get to be less so, but I was just kind of amazed that the community was having all of these very out in your face community efforts to talk about eliminating racism and it didn't look like much progress had been made. And yeah, so I noticed, I went into nursing as a second career in Washington and I came back here and I had opportunities to look at the nursing field and I wasn't seeing any African Americans in leadership roles in nursing here in Grand Rapids. And some of the other kinds of professions, ya know, I wasn't seeing that kind of advancement that would indicate things were equalizing out in the way it should. GOOTE: You did see those things in Washington D.C.? CLAYTOR: Yeah, to a greater extent. Of course, DC by itself for a while was called the Chocolate City. Ya know, there were more black people there and there were a lot of educated black people. Now what happened here is a lot of the families ya know who produced kids who went on to higher education the kids just didn't come back here to settle. And I think that's been the case with a lot of families no matter what their ethnicity is. And then you have kind of the retention of some of those more tradition old ways of doing things among any part of the community that returns because I've noticed, I am just a rare thing as an African American adult to come back to Grand Rapids after being gone as long as I've been gone. Obviously there have been a few but it is not a large number. And, I threw a conniption one Page 9 �time, not long ago like five years ago. Mom died in May of 2005, and I had a car accident on Christmas day of 2005. And in January we discovered that I had a slow brain bleed as a result of that accident and so had to have brain surgery and haven't been back to work in other than volunteer kinds of things since. And so just before Mom died I was still on the advisory committee for the health department. And we had a meeting and the rate of infant mortality in Grand Rapids among African Americans at that particular point in time was the second highest in the state. Wayne County was even better than Kent. Oakland County was the highest and Kent was the second highest for infant mortality among African Americans. And so the people were sitting up in this meeting saying, "Oh my goodness, what is this all about?" and they were having reports from like four different program groups that were allegedly working on this problem. And as I looked around this room, when somebody said, "How can this be, we have such fine medical facilities here," and I looked around the room and I said, "Ya know, this a really bizarre situation because I don't talk about my mother often but 60 years ago when she came here to Grand Rapids she would sit on committees and she would be the only African American on the committee. And they were working on problems related to poor health outcomes or poor outcomes of any variety among African Americans and I'm sitting in this room today, her daughter, and the picture is still the same. I am the only African American in the room. And you’re having presentations from four groups. That are supposed to be working on this topic with infant mortality among African Americans and you don't have one African American professional working in those programs. That’s what's wrong." And they looked at me like "Oh my goodness, wants this all about." Because I hadn't been all that vocal. Furthermore they didn't know who I was talking about when I talked about my mother. Well, Mama died before the next meeting and because she was fairly prominent in the community her obit was on the front page of the Press. Which kind of blew me away myself but at any rate it was there. So they had an opportunity to know who I was talking about and what this was all about and so when I went back to the next meeting the woman who was administrating the Health Department told me she they had been granted another chunk of money to work on this problem and I said, "how is this money being administered?" And the woman went and told me that the same committee who had been working on the Healthy Kent 2010 Initiatives would be the same committee that would be working on this again. I said, "Are you telling me, the committee that had those poor outcomes, is going to be doing, I said this doesn't make any sense." And by this point everyone shut up and said, "What do you recommend?" And I said, "Maybe some focus groups that are in the African American community to discuss the problem and preferably being led by other African Americans. And so you can get some real feedback. And that you would have the Advisory Committee meeting at such a time that people from the community can attend if they are not are not health care professionals who can get off from work in the middle of the day to attend a meeting." Duh, I mean I sat on these committees in Washington and we had enough sense to have them in the evening when people could come. I could not believe it. And I sat there and kind of said this that and the other and it was like I speaking some new language. And I find when I talk about coming back here I find there is just a lot of this kind of thing where people think that oh well we'll just think of this program and do it and never ask the people who are to be served what might work." And that is part of what is a throwback to the Reformed community the CRC in particular. Because from what I gather, the missionary efforts on their part, and I've gathered this even from members of that group, is that, a lot of it is to go out and spread the word and invite people to come in and be just like them. But not to go out and work with incorporating people, respecting where their coming from. And so we'll go out and do something for you, and so a lot of the social outreach initiatives whether or not they have been undertaken specifically by the CRC or whether they are undertaken by somebody else. That way of doing things has become more of a common feature here in Grand Rapids and West Michigan than it seems to be in other areas. So you don't find as many peoples who have been in Grand Rapids forever that get to the planning tables for stuff. And so you have the people saying, "Oh well you should do something for my group." And they hear about getting grant money from some place. But Page 10 �nobody has ever kind of said, "Well when you get grant money, you have to account for it." And it's not just you get a check. I mean, there has just been this disconnect for how things work. So you have things kind of going belly up when they don’t' need to be going belly up. But it's just because the way of doing things has gone along a different path. And so it doesn't occur to people to say, "Well if we are going to be working with this community and in this community. And at this point there are professionals who are within the communities. Why don't we work with this group of people and do a program?" As opposed to just thinking of it on our own and it may not be hitting the particular spot, yeah it's just nuts. So at any rate yes, I mentioned that coming back this is why I think I find myself being frustrated because there is some stuff that is just, haven't you quite figured this out yet. And I'd find myself being misunderstood when I'd try and speak about how it might have been done somewhere else. And there are a lot of people I've learned who've come to Grand Rapids thinking that they've had a nice opportunity to do something and they leave. And go back to whenever they came from because they don't want to be bothered with it. And I can see why. And I talk with people the people who I get to know who are newer to Grand Rapids, African Americans who are newer to Grand Rapids and they will kind of look at it and say, "What is this?" It's just very peculiar. GOOTE: To finish up, you said your mom; you mentioned on the phone there was even a scholarship named after here and that she was involved a lot. But what sort of things were your parents involved in? Obviously she served on committees. Did she still work for the YMCA? CLAYTOR: YWCA. W's are different than M's. Woman as opposed to men. They, when she got here, after she had been doing this interracial study for the national YWCA after she married, they both sat down and he ran the numbers and said, "if you go back to work it really won't impact the family that much, because what you earn.." it was going to put him up in another tax bracket, but not enough into it to make much of a difference. So he encouraged her to pursue some very intense volunteer stuff. Such that she went to China for a world YWCA council meeting when I was 6 months old. And my Grandma took care of me but then after Grandma died he made sure there was household help and what not to make sure she could do the traveling she needed to do for the national YWCA efforts that she was involved in. And a lot of those were involved in equal rights and freedom and dignity for all people. And that was what she did. And daddy had been involved in the community chest, and community services here in Grand Rapids as a volunteer. And he help to found the Grand Rapids Chapter of the Urban League along with an Episcopal Bishop which was kind of interesting because daddy was a Baptist at the time. But he did a lot of community outreach work and what he decided to do, well when he and Mom got married, he put her in charge of all the family outreach volunteer stuff and he would pull back on doing that so he could spend his spare time with the family. And so as a family unit, the whole effort could be put forward. And so his efforts were often putting forward, treating people with equality and dignity. And in his practice it was always that way. And to make sure that people of all ethnic persuasions had equal access to jobs and things. And mom's efforts involved in the community, she was one of the people who set up the Han Relations Commission in Grand Rapids, it was the forerunner of the equal employment activities. There was just a lot she was involved with. When I was young there were very few if any African American teachers in the school system. And Mom pushed very hard for that to be changed. You would have African American people in the community who had been to college and had teacher certification and they wouldn't be hired in the system. They had to be out in retail establishments and doing things that were not compatible with the educational background they had, and that was real stupid, and mom did a lot of stuff about those kinds of things and sorts of local community stuff she did. And so she had an impact in a strong way. And I kind of was eh, a little astonished, not astonished but realized that they hadn't gone back enough in History because when they were opening up the new Han Services Building for the county they went to have a profile of Mama Page 11 �in the building and I tried to tell them, but no one asked me at the right time, that it would probably be more appropriate to have my father in that area because of the kinds of things he did with his medical practice. Ya know, he saw just an enormous number of patients without charging them, or would charge them way lower fees just because of what people could afford. And he did his thing so quietly that people didn’t know, the people who knew him knew, and they had a great deal of respect for him. And he was just a real significant figure, particularly in the African American community for just the kinds of things that he did to push for the dignity and uplifting of everybody. But because Mom ended up having the more public role she got a lot of attention and she was inducted in the Michigan Woman's Hall of Fame and all manner of things. And she had every right to be there but it was very much a team effort with them in terms of how they viewed their role in the community. (She points out a photo of her mother receiving the honor for the naming of the scholarship at GVSU) END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75933085f74177ee918736353cb6ebaf.mp3 6db5c85a76b6cfc9ffbfe8ea8cde07c1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Claytor_Judith Title A name given to the resource Judith Claytor audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Claytor, Judith Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Goote, Paige Description An account of the resource Judith Claytor was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She graduated from Western Michigan University with a degree in sociology/social work. She discusses the racial and religious differences between living in Grand Rapids and Washington D.C. and attending Western Michigan University. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Religious discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5a1e3187ee672cd9df8570c647a4cbf.pdf ef83a9f06ac9d6f96a9c8c99a1bce1ac PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Joseph Cospito Interviewers: Justin Francis Cospito Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/9/2012 Biography and Description Joseph Cospito likes working on his house, playing with his children, being a stay at home dad, and listening to books on audio tape. He is a retired science professor who is married to an episcopal priest. He discusses growing up in the fifties in Bartonville, Illinois. Transcript JFC: My name is Justin Cospito and I am interviewing my father Joseph Cospito at three PM on March ninth and we are in our home of Northville Michigan and dad would you like to spell out your name? JAC: Sure, last name is c-o-s-p-i-t-o JFC: So tell us a little bit about your background, where’d you grow up? JAC: Well I was born in New Jersey, but I grew up in the Midwest, a little town called Bartonville, outside of Peoria, Illinois. It was an old coal mining town and we were the only Catholic family that moved into that area. We moved into an old coal miner’s house that didn’t have water, electricity, and an old outhouse out back. JFC: Alright, well did you have any siblings? JAC: Yea I had three siblings. I had two sisters and one brother. My brother John was the youngest and I was the oldest. JFC: And do you wanna just explain what your childhood life went through, and through high school? JAC: Yea it was challenging to live in a small town where everybody knew your business. I remember we had a phone line that had like five people on it and there was Mrs. McGullicutty would listen to everybody’s conversations. She would just be quiet. She knew when to get on the phone cause all the phones would ring. If a call was coming into that line and people were always saying “get off the phone get off the phone” but she’d listen quietly and you could hear her. That’s what a small community’s like. It was the fifties so just remember grade school as being like a prison it was a big old building, dark. Page 1 �Teachers seemed like they were ancient and they were mean. Back then you could get paddled or they could break yard sticks across your back, not the girls just the boys. And sometimes you just had to break some rules to have some kind of a life in that institution and I choose to break more rules than I probably should have. After grade school in Bartonville, Bartonville grade school I was sent to a catholic school and went to a catholic high school. All boys school, I liked that, I enjoyed that much much more cause I was heavy into athletics and I was a very religious person and actually was invited to join to enter into a pre-seminary they called it, to finish up high school, but I didn’t do that. My father blocked that idea. JFC: Well can you tell us a little bit just about your interpersonal relationships with your father and your siblings. JAC: Sure I was the oldest so I saw my duty to take care of and look after the children. My father, your grandfather was a veteran of world war two. He was in the army before World war two started. He was in Greenland and he told me stories about German bombers coming over and trying to bomb the base and that was before war was declared to the US then he was brought back to the states. He was a medic, he was trained to work with donkeys and then shipped around the world to India and then he was flown into southern China over the Himalayan Mountains with these donkeys and for two years he ran up and down hills being chased by the Japanese. He was with the Chang hi shek army they were, he showed me some pictures. They were absolutely brutal to their own people and he said they never stood and fought against the Japanese. He was with a small medical unit that was attached to the Chinese to care for their wounded and sick. Yea our relationship was not very good, with my father. He was. He had his own post-traumatic stress coming back from the war. His sister said he didn’t come back the same. He was a violent man, explosive, drank a lot. Later found out he was an alcoholic. He gambled a lot we grew up in poverty even though he had a decent job at Caterpillar Tractor Company. Where everybody in my family, I mean all the men in my family worked, At least at some point in their lives for Caterpillar Tractor Company. Oh we didn’t have the money that our neighbors had and other people at our school had and that was very difficult and shameful to live that way. That and his temper and his violence. So I tried to shelter my siblings as much as possible from his wrath taking his, taking his violence physically, but emotionally it was very, very difficult. I hated him for almost my entire life. And still to this day I can’t be at peace with it. My mother was weak, she just, when she tried to stand up to him he just over powered her and I saw him hit her once. Hmm she was afraid of him and she was afraid of what he would do to her parents who lived in the same town. He had threatened to hurt them if she left him. Oh that, it was a hard time. JFC: So why don’t you tell us what it was like growing up in the fifties and just continue on until you got into college and what you did in college. JAC: The fifties were certainly different than today’s world. It was actually a much more, it was a calmer life and not near as much drama and didn’t hear about all the violence that we have today. I think, I don’t know if it was less violence but I grew up without television up until high school and then it was just a black and white television. I would walk by this electronic store and I would look at some of the TV’s they had in the window and I remember watching “Hop Along Cassidy Show” and I started going Page 2 �there Saturday mornings at a certain time to watch some of the programs. But we would sit around at night and listen to the radio, especially ball games. Baseball was really big in our house, listening to it. There were kids would just hang out in high school, we would go to these hamburger or we called them tenderloin shops. They would make tenderloin or barbecue sandwiches and those were the hang outs on Friday and Saturday nights. Everybody would work on their cars, the guys would work on their cars on Saturdays, shine them all up, have a date, go out to the movies or something common there’d be groups. Then we’d go get something to eat, but we’d just drive around and around and around until we finally thought we found a cool spot to park and then we’d park and order. The waitresses were just, we called them car hops, they would roller skate out, take your order, put a tray on the side of your car, then roller skate back into the diner. They’d have your food and roller skate out with a tray full of food and drinks and then you would leave a tip for them, special on the tray. Some of our, they were women all young women, some of them were our friends, high school students. Music was real popular, we listened to a lot of music, but then it was forty five singles, and you’d get one good song on one side and you’d get some awful song on the back side that wasn’t very popular, but that’s the way they sold them. Back then you could go into record stores and you could ask for a record and you could go into a booth and listen to it to see if you wanted to buy it. Radio music stations were on all the time, whenever we were in our cars. The car was the single most important thing in our lives back in high school. It represented freedom, the area that I grew up in you would, it was surrounded by corn fields, going out for a drive on these gravel roads. We’d go to strip mines, which were mines, surface mining. They’d be filled up with water and we’d go swimming and it was very care free compared to today’s world. The classes were easy and it was just like grade school but just a little bit more difficult. But the teachers were laid back and everybody was kinda had their own rhythm and it wasn’t fast. Periodically we would have these air raid drills were we would all hide underneath our desk waiting for a nuclear bomb to drop, all the way through grade school and high school we’d be doing that and then you’d have tornado watch and if a tornado came by you’d have to go into the hall way away from glass, so it seems like we were always preparing for something. I remember helping my father build a bomb shelter down in the basement with sand bags. There was a period of time where everybody was building bomb shelters. The situation with the Soviet Union was very tense. I can remember in high school the news of the Talcon resolution where supposedly the Turner was attacked by north Vietnamese speed boats, later we found out in history that wasn’t true at all. But I remember the country gearing up for war and I remembering that all of us young men were senior year were just saying, “Yea” rooting the United States on “Yeah lets go over there, let’s make them pay.” I went on to college; it was a small number of friends. Most of the kids from that graduating class worked Keystone, Steel and Wire, Caterpillar, or local lumber yard or just local jobs or they’d go back and work on the family farm. They, they didn’t go off to college. And very very few women went off to college. They were supposed to just stay at home, get a job, and wait to be married. My parents and many parents back then wouldn’t put money into a girls education, because they figured she was just gonna get married, have babies, and start a family and her husband would take care of her. I remember Sputnik when that came out; going outside to watch it and the country had another wave of fear. I don’t know what of, but I think they were just afraid of the advanced technology of the Soviet Union. But I remember then the space race started. But more money was poured into the schools for science and math. There was a sudden interest in it and I rode that wave. I did very well in math and science and that’s what I majored in, in college and I got a scholarship that paid for my tuition. Page 3 �I had to get a part time job to pay for the rest of my room and board, but I also was able to get what they called “National Defense Loan.” They were education loans that they made available especially for science majors and I borrowed some money from that program. I was premedical, enjoyed the studies, but the war was heating up in 1966. A classmate of mine that we grew up as friends through grade school, through high school, and went off to college together, came into my dorm room late one evening and knocked on the door. I let him in, he was a bit drunk, and he said “let’s drop outta school and enlist before the war was over.” And it was just before exams so I said, “Good idea, okay and so we got, we drove into a train station and jumped on a train up to Chicago and enlisted, he enlisted into becoming a war officer flying helicopters, which made sense because he had dropped out of college that whole year and was spending the tuition money that his parents were giving him for flying lessons and he was just living in the dorm. They didn’t know… the school didn’t even know that he wasn’t registered for classes. Now I went to small college in southern Illinois, they called Eastern Illinois University, very beautiful area, very beautiful college and I liked it, but I felt like that the communists were killing Catholics, they were killing Christians and I had to go do something about that. So I enlisted into an army security agency, knowing I’d go into language training. That’s what they told me and indeed that’s what happened. Went off to basic training, didn’t see Gary for a long time, quite a few years. Had language training in North Vietnamese in Washington D.C. I was stationed at Arlington hall our buildings were at the south post of what’s Arlington Cemetery. And I’d go into town, D.C. every morning with a coat and tie and no military I.D. go into the basement of one of the large buildings on Connecticut Avenue and we’d start the day at nine o’clock for classes and only Vietnamese was spoken during the day, during class times. We’d have short break for lunch, where’d we go upstairs, go out somewhere get something to eat and come back down. And we were trained in vocabulary on conversational and on listening we had headphones, we’d have to listen to tapes. Try to translate them or at least get a gist of the conversation. We did that for, oh god, quite a few months until November and then I was pulled out and ordered to Vietnam and I remember I went by myself, the other class mates were scattered around. People were taking different languages at that time. There was a small group taking that dialect and I don’t know where the other guys went, but I wound up in Quan Trii. I remember getting off the airplane, I had a khaki uniform; I didn’t have my utilities then and just being hit by this massive hid heat and just all kinds of smells. Most distinguishing smell was diesel fuel burning, it was covering the field. Later found out that, that’s how, that was the sewage system emptying, emptying the trenches and then poor guys would have to stand there in diesel fuel. Oh that was sick. I turned over my orders, I was told I was gonna be listening to tapes that were collected from the Hociman trail and translating them, trying to distinguish between Chinese and different dialects of Vietnamese (JFC sneezes a couple times) but to my surprise I was signed to a platoon of south Vietnamese rangers and spent my time in Vietnam up in the mountains on the smaller areas of the Hociman trail JFC: Well do you wanna go into detail about what happened in Vietnam? JAC: Well I can just say being a very strong catholic boy to being hit with the immorality and the viciousness and just the insanity of war. It was very hard on me. It was very violent and it seemed senseless. And I went from a college student to being somebody that became nb and could kill other people. And it was a very fast transition. None of my training ever prepared me for that. And I was very Page 4 �isolated, I was with Vietnamese, there was an American officer and maybe a sergeant assigned to these ten man patrols. We’d go out for ten to twelve to fourteen days up in the mountains looking for the trails, looking for the North Vietnamese trails and setting up ambushes. And my task was to send up a, the Vietnamese would set up a long antenna for me on the side facing Lousts the plains and I’d do electronic intercept. That was basically my job, that and taking samples back of any ammunitions or rice or supplies to bring them back. JFC: Okay and how did your experience in Vietnam come to an end? And what was it like coming back? JAC: Yea... Well the world had certainly changed. JFC: Well how’d you come, what happened? JAC: We set up an ambush at night something we did every time we were out there, yea but this time it wasn’t just a bunch of young men and women pushing these heavily loaded bikes. They made these bicycles, the Chinese bicycles, they were real sturdy and they had petals but the petals were always strapped to the bike and there’d be hundreds of pounds saddled on to these bikes and these kids would just push this up and down the mountains. Not all the supplies were coming down through the plains down below which was being bombed all the time, but as the bombing got heavier they started pushing more supplies south through the mountains, through the jungle. Eh we set up an ambush, but we wound up tripping an ambush. They were regular North Vietnamese soldiers and they had RPG’s which you see on TV now you know the big head rocket. Well we’d never encountered them before they were anti-tank armor personal rockets not for infantry use, but they brought them down, they were very effective, they blew up the whole line we had. All they had to do was hit a tree. Hit some brush to set them off and then you just had, not just the metal shrapnel but you’d have just wood chips. Everything became a shrapnel. It blew up our whole line. a young guy from Wyoming was next to me and he just, he was eviscerated and everything was ripped out of him. I had a head wound and concussion and some wounding on my side, left side, but it was the concussion that I was just lost, I was just... I didn’t know where I was. I couldn’t see very well. Cause it’s just flashes of light then it’s dark then it’s flashes of light and I lost my shotgun, I was blown back quite a ways from where I was. And I remember just picking up... I can’t even remember his name now. Picking him up in a fireman’s carry and running out away down this kind of a hill area, gully. And stopping and found out he was dead and I just put him down and all I had left was my they called a K bar. Eh it’s a big knife. Bayonet. But that’s all I had. Wandering around and finally settling in under a tree and the greatest fear I had. I had two fears. One was being captured because they don’t keep prisoners up in the mountains unless you were a pilot or an officer. Nobody took prisoners there. You had no place to put them. So I didn’t want to be captured but the second fear I had and maybe that was the most and greatest fear was the tigers. Tigers always followed us. They knew that at some point they were gonna have a meal. And when they heard gun fire they would come running for dinner, it was like ringing the dinner bell. So they were there, I could hear them. And I must have stayed up all night, with my night out… knife out… wondering if I was gonna be eaten hehe. *Cough*. It was like living in a zoo, I mean there were just…the snakes were poisonous, h the ant bites would swell up. Leaches were everywhere, they weren’t just in the water, they were in the leaves, the trees, there was nothing comfortable about it. That’s where I got malaria. I Page 5 �just thought I had h an infection… I had chills… and most of the Vietnamese had it too, dysentery. h, we all had just a quarter, a small area of the map where the jp-off point was. They had different points where you were supposed to rendezvous if something were to happen. I had a compass, I found a trail that went down to the other side of the mountain range, I made it back. I was lucky to make it back. And there was, there was only five other people that were there and they were all wounded to some extent. And then we were able to…we were able to call in a pickup, but we had to hike another five or six miles, get down to a lower area, that was level enough, for the helicopters to come in. There wasn’t any way that we could rope up. Well, that’s how I h, how I wound up getting a ticket back home, not because of the severity of the wounds, but because of the concussion… my brain was just jumbled. I couldn’t speak or understand Vietnamese anymore, I couldn’t pick up the towns… it’s a tonal language. Every vowel has six tones that can be used, and any vowel within a word can change the meaning of the word. And just being a westerner was very hard to pick up on the language to begin with but after the head wound, h, it was impossible. I couldn’t make any sense of it. And when you’re in the field everyone is just yelling and cursing and everything come very fast… it’s not like learning Spanish listening to a slower conversation. Well I was of no use to them so they sent me back to be checked out at Walter Reed Army Hospital in D.C… and I did and they found out that I actually had malaria. That was… that was the worst of it, but they patched everything else up on me. The head wound now they had identified as tragic head injury, but back then it was just a head wound. Now I had headaches and I was confused for quite some time… I spent a year in and out of Walter Read. This was just being treated for the wounds and then for the h malaria but the malaria cause an autoimmune disease called black water fever where my immune system attacked my kidneys and I was losing my kidney function. In Walter Read I was put in a ward of guys that had renal problems, and there were actually quite a few malaria cases there. And Walter Reed had a long history of, of doing research on malaria. *yawn* yeah that was something to be in the hospital for such a long time. From that hospital I, I learned of Martin Luther King’s assassination, Bobby Kennedy’s assassination, the democratic convention that just went crazy… in Chicago. I was out on pass when that happened, I was at some guys house that I got to know cause I’d had, I wound up having a part time job that turned into a full time job as a bartender when I was out of the hospital. Which… I just couldn’t leave the area, cause I had to keep going back to the hospital. But they let me out longer and longer… but they wouldn’t cut me loose because obviously security wanted me back… hehe they had too much money invested in h… ability I no longer possessed. They claimed it was psychological, and they were just waiting for me to snap out of it which really never happened. I h, I remember a lieutenant, first lieutenant showing up at the clipboard, and just reaming me out; told me I needed to get back to my unit and that I had to sign all these papers that if I said anything to anybody about what I did even if I was in Vietnam, and anything I may have been doing or training I had received, I would end up at Fort Leavenworth making big rocks into small rocks. That was… I believed them… hehe cause they were the army, they could do anything…you could just disappear. See, my parents didn’t know I was in Vietnam. They had me write these letters, h, before I was shipped over, and they mailed them out periodically. And I never received any… well… I received a couple letters that were forwarded to me, but it was out of Arlington Hall, the mail had to be addressed to Arlington Hall. Arlington Hall was still the center of Army security in the States. That’s where all the spooks for the army work out of. Yup. I saw the democratic convention, I flew there, the next day after the first day of the rioting, and it was a police riot, I was there then standing in front of the hotel when a group of Afro- Page 6 �American kids had all these bottles and they started throwing them over the white middle class protesters at the police, and they were just laughing… they thought it was the greatest fun. And then they took off just as the police started charging, beating everybody up and throwing gas. They thought it was hilarious that all the white people were beating up the white people hehe. It was… it was… well I was still standing there, I was still for the war, I was still on active duty just standing there thinking, well, nothing is gonna happen to me. It was complete chaos… I was choking on gas and there was a phalanx of cops running my way and they were just beating everybody, they weren’t asking any questions. They were beating cameramen, h, so I kinda was standing there for a while thinking we could have a conversation but it became obvious that nobody was asking any questions… I took off running with everybody else. And there was a small group of us that split off, we didn’t go to the Lincoln Park, we ran over to the commuter trains, train tracks, and dropped down, I don’t know, it was like ten feet, I remember with this group just running down the tracks. What the heck am I doing this for, but I did it. And I was active; I went out every day for the rest of that week. I met Abby Hoffman, I met Alex Ginsburg, I met Tom Hayden, he was the only one wearing a white shirt and a skinny black tie. He was the only one that was really serious. h, these all became big names in some trials later, but Abby Hoffman was funny. I always quote the head of the Yippee movement, or one of the heads, which was funny because they had no heads, it was just pure energy. I remember being trained how to fall down and cover my nuts and my head when being beaten. And I actually ended up taking this seriously because I saw enough people being knocked around with nightsticks. I remember one day, Dick Gregory, the comedian, was there. And all these delegates from the convention showed up and there was gonna be a nice peaceful walk, south. Police had set it up, said just move away from the park, Lincoln Park, and walk south. They were gonna be on the streets. And so they had police cars in the front, clearing the way, so everyone was walking down the street, nice sunny day, Dick Gregory was just cracking jokes, I was up toward the front… listening to him. And we walked down a little further. And he said “well, we ought to get up on the sidewalk.” I said, “well, ok”. But when we started getting up on the sidewalk, we noticed that all the delegates had started disappearing, cause they wore a red ribbon to identify themselves as delegated on the floor. And Dick Gregory disappeared, just turned around and he was gone. You could see people were being hustled out of the crowd. So they took all the leadership, the delegates, and then there was just a crowd of people up on the sidewalk, like four abreast, going back about two miles for all I knew. And then the National Guard came in. They had the National Guard come in to take the streets all the way up. Or all the way towards the back of the line. And the National Guard running right in front, I was right in the front, blocking the front, with their rifles and gas masks on. I’m going “ohhh, this isn’t good.” And then the guys, the national guard troops got up on the trucks, standing on the hoods of the trucks, and they had these, well I thought they were flamethrowers, then I go “oh no, that’s CS gas.” We used that in Vietnam, ya know, and it was considered illegal, it’s a nerve gas, from the Geneva Convention. And that was it, I tried to get out, tried to burst out of this line and one of the guardsmen tried to, , butt me with his rifle and I flipped it around and hit him and butted him in the face and just took off. But I only got to a couple steps, and I got sprayed with the gas too, the stuff shots out like fifteen or twenty feet. And they sprayed the whole crowd. Then I remember running down the alley, , my eyes were going in different directions, I’d lost my mobility, I just got dizzy, and I dropped. I dropped down to the ground. Then I remember being hauled and thrown into a paddy wagon; it was filled with people, and the cops threw in a couple Page 7 �canisters of gas, closed it up, we were all… and I had been exposed to regular tear gas in the service. You have to go into a room and take off your mask and you gotta give your name and ID number and all this stuff it doesn’t take long for you to run out of air and you breathe it and you’re supposed to be in there for so long and it just burns and itches… burns your lungs. So… it was awful. I couldn’t believe they did that. Then I remember we came out at some parking structure, and I remember the wagon was going down, it was curving around going down, and we were in some parking structure, and it was all military, national guard, and police down there, and they were unloading these paddy wagons, and having everybody run out. But they had a little gauntlet of the police, with their sticks, and they were swinging, hitting everybody, as we ran out. Nobody read any rights haha, I remember, the Quakers kept saying “everybody tape a dime to your leg cause you get to make one phone call”. Well, we were in a parking structure, there was no phone, hahaha a dime wasn’t going to do you any good. So I was wounded on my left side where I got scars and this Chicago policeman just waylaid me and opened up my skin and rolled it back over my scalp. I was bleeding profusely and once again my head got knocked up, knocked around. And then we were put in a line and supposedly we were being processed and I’m bleeding like crazy but nobody helped. And I get up there and I show my military ID and I start cursing at them. I say, hahaha, I say “how did this happen to me? What’s going on?” It was like a goolaug(?). And I was very much for the war, you know, I was still in the service and I had just been on pass from Walter Read and I was gonna go back. And I called the digs now, the thug just looked up at me and said “get your ass on a plane out of here” and he threw the ID at me. God I had just gotten back from Vietnam, I was wounded, trying to heal, trying to understand what was going on in the country, and I was beaten and gassed and then told to get out of there, and I was from Illinois, and a Chicago cop is telling me to disappear. Well that pissed me off, so I went up, they had aid stations for the protestors, I got bandaged up, they just put tape to close the wound, they didn’t get sewed. And I stayed around. I met another group of Vietnam veterans that were there, and there was a group called “Vietnam Veterans Against the War”, and I still have one of the pins, and I joined. I joined. And from then on I became very active against the war, I became contentious of chapter counselor, oh what a time to be in the Midwest. When I went back to college at Bradley University, it had just looked like America had gone crazy. The Americans had been so pro the war, and if you were against the war, even if you were a veteran, you were communist. It was just surrealistic… moment where on college campuses, part of the citizenry didn’t like you as a veteran cause you went to an immoral war, and then you have all these American Legionnaires and World War Two veterans that just hated you because you were losing the war, and then demonstrating against it. For them it was like an act of treason. Nobody really liked you back then if you were a veteran. So… I just didn’t tell people I was a veteran anymore. Went on to graduate school, I didn’t tell anybody. I used my GI bill to go to college and then graduate school, but didn’t tell anybody I was a veteran. JFC: Ok, well m…how were your experiences at graduate school and what did you get a degree in? And after graduate school. JAC: Well, I wound up having, before I went to graduate school, I wound up having a kidney transplant; I had lost my kidneys from the malaria. I got a kidney from my father which wasn’t a good match but it kept me alive. I had been on renal dialysis for two years. I finished up undergraduate on a dialysis Page 8 �machine. They were just starting; it was a very crude technique back then. But after the transplant I felt better, and I started, h, well I was a pre-med major, I started in a MD, PhD program at CL University medical school, and wound up just getting the PhD, it was too hard to do both majors. God, once I got into clinicals it was just, my first rotation was obstetrics and this woman had a really hard birthing and it was just too much blood and screaming. I said “I’m out of here, I don’t need this.” So I went into medical research and got a PhD. I did research at the brain institute at UCLA and taught for three years. Then moved up to Seattle University and taught pre-med classes. I just had to get away from the pressure of doing research. I had a large research project that was funded, accepted and funded by NIH, and I was only about six months into it, when this whole Star Wars anti-missile defense theory was started by Regan, and Regan went in and stole all the money from NIH, he just took it. That was congress grant for biomedical research, he just took it. And he gave it over to the Star Wars program, and I had to stop my research program and I had to kill all my kittens and cats which was… well I was doing research on brain development. I remember just being so disgusted that I’d spent, not only going into the service, and it was really rejected by that service time, and then I suffer from it physically and emotionally. And I spend all this money and all these years of training to get to the point where I was just starting to be productive in my research, and once again, an idiot politician blocked me. It took all my research away; it took all my resources away. And I had to fire the veterinarian and the technician… I could have kept plugging along but I was just so furious, what’s the point? And I, h, I finished up my contract at UCLA and moved up to Seattle, Washington, taught undergraduate pre-med classes and I just loved it, it was a lot of fun. I didn’t have the pressure of a big university. JFC: Ok, well m, I guess we will keep going on to personal life. What happened and sort of what you did after, after your time being a professor. JAC: Yeah, well, *clears throat* I went back to an old colleague…I had a profound spiritual experience, I was with some Jesuits on the coast, I had this deep spiritual experience right in the middle of mass. I just got up and went out and was wondering in the woods somewhere on the Oregon coast… and my friend Andy Duffner, Jesuit Priest, who was a physicist, we got to know each other teaching at Seattle University came out and got me and said “It’s all gonna be ok, just rest”. I remember bubbling to myself “I’m not gonna be a priest, I’m not gonna be a priest” I entered the discernment program the Jesuits and I went in to get a Masters of Divinity. And I was just gonna enter the Bishop process when I met your mother on a backpacking trip, who happened to be an Episcopal priest, and still is. And she was cute… it’s just strange how that worked out too. We took this trip with two Catholic nuns… great women, up into the Canadian Cascades… up where the Rockies melt into some of that range, at a park called Cathedral Park. And it was high up in the range and you could stand up there, the upper part of the mountain, and you could see all the mountains in the Canadian Cascades going all the way down into the States. It was just beautiful. I brought my backpacking fishing fly rod and I had been fishing in the upper alpine lakes… there were little trout up there, and your mother would sit down with the book close to me and she would just watch me casting and then struck up a conversation. After a few days of that, of hiking, I would go fishing… we developed a relationship. I mean a social relationship. I went back down to the Oregon coast to get ready to the nunishipt(?). She would write me cards and letters. I would walk into town, pacific city, to look at them. I was looking forward to them. Then all of a sudden, Page 9 �they stopped. I’d walk in, there would be no mail and I just felt this great loneliness. So m, I went back to Seattle and we started dating. I put the Jesuits on hold, and they were fine by that, they really want you to know that this is what you want to do. And, jeez, after about a year, year and a half of dating we were engaged and we got married. And after two years you came along. That changed everything cause at that time I was the director of the “spiritual exercises of everyday life” which is a large retreat program throughout the Peugit Sound Area for the Jesuits. I was working as a layperson, and when Mom got pregnant with you I had to decide whether I was going to be Episcopalian or Roman Catholic. It was quite a shock to see a pregnant priest, for my generation. Your mom with her collar up on the alter rail being seven or eight months pregnant, it was just h… I had to make a decision. And so I entered into the Episcopal Church and that’s where you were raised, in that church, through your toddler years, until we moved down to Tacoma. So I taught part time and I was running this program and your mother and I raised you. JFC: Okay. This is the second half of the interview with Joseph Cospito, done on March 11, 2012, at 3:21 pm in our home of Northville, MI. and, I’m doing the interview. My name is Justin Cospito. , last thing we talked about was when I was born in Seattle, so let’s continue from there. JAC: *Cough+…the area that we live in in Seattle wasn’t very nice. But it was almost call the, would be called here in this area the inner city. It wasn’t very nice. We lived in a little valley, and your mother had bought a home. That was the original farm house in this valley. I spent a lot of time fixing it up, and did a lot of work. I had fixed up my house and I was living in... I kept it and rented it out to some friends. When I worked on your mother's house, and that's where you lived. ...we were making dilly beans. We liked to can together and late smer, and she was very, very pregnant. We were just waiting for the contractions to start when they called the water to break. And it did on this Labor Day weekend, so we went in, rushed mom into the hospital and they said oh no her contractions...she’s not ready yet. So then we left and we turned around and came right back. They admitted her, and she was in labor for 24 hours and was absolutely exhausted. She was 40 years old. It was pretty hard to get pregnant, and we just were so happy. I was there. And then the doctor called for an emergency C section. Your heart beat was slowing down, you got into some trouble, and your mother was just exhausted. So we went into the surgery room, and I’ve got pictures of the doctor make and incision and putting her left hand down on moms belly, and your butt popped out first. And I just pulled you out by your legs, and there you were. And, if I hadn’t been around the hospital so much I would have probably just dropped to the ground. And I thought it was just the most beautiful and interesting thing. And they cleaned you up and handed you to me, they finished working on your mother. And, you were unhappy, with quite a way to come into the world, being just dragged out immediately, but you were wrapped up and I held you, they had a little cap on you, and it was just an amazing event. Well, we got out, you...you, they said they did different tests and you were just fine, but you were hurt. And we didn’t realize how badly hurt you were. You were crying all the time. I’d stay up at night with you, holding you, and moving you until you fall asleep. I would just hold you and then try to get some sleep. And we would walk around the neighborhood late at night or 2, 3 in the morning to get you to go to sleep. That was the only time you slept, when there was movement, when you were being moved. Or I would put you in the car and drive all over for a good part of the night. I got tired, you mother had some complications to the surgery so Page 10 �she was in bed a long time. She got an infection. We worked part time, both your mother and I, and we took care of you part time. We were with you; sometimes I was with you all the time. We did things together, you and I had put a backpack on, and we hiked all over the place. We’d spend a good part of the day just hiking around. I got in good shape and you were happy. One thing you wouldn’t do was keep a hat on your head. I kept buying these hats; it took me awhile to figure out to safety pin it to a cord with your clothes. I would put it on and you would just take it off, and you would be angry. You didn’t want anything on your head, but I had to protect you from the sun. That part I remember, of going back a number of times looking for your hat. Those were good years. You’re a very exciting baby. We knew you were very bright, and eyes...your mother and I just went crazy about a bunch of things because your mother and I were so happy to have a baby being so old. We... [Laugh], our place was just filled with toys. But the one thing you played with that you loved was the Tupperware, and the pots and pans. So we had, so it was safe for you to take them out we had to put locks on all the doors except for that one, so you could take them out. When winter came, I bought this little play structure and put it together, they were usually outside but I had one room for you to play in, and I had all these Japanese big square pillows surrounding the play structure, so if you fell of you would just fall into a pillow. And you climbed on that oh… I guess, I’m not sure when you started walking; we’ve got in your baby book, but even before you were walking you would pull yourself up on it. And you identified with it very, very quick. And there was a little slide to it, so for a couple years that was your thing to goof around, crawl in and out of, and pull yourself up, go down the slide, sometimes you’d get up there and just let go and fall back on the pillows. We did many bus trips downtown with the science muse, to the zoo that was our favorite outings because it had big open areas where we could just run and you liked looking at the animals. And we'd stop and looking at the tiger. It was always scary, always scary for me. Well that was the life in Seattle, and then we moved to Coma, your mother was called to another church to be the director, called the Church of the Good Shepard. We found an older 1946 or 1942 house that was built by a very famous house builder in that area. It was all cedar, gold shake, and it was on two acres of land. That was not developed. It was full of brush, but we really liked it, I saw a lot of potential in it. but I’ve always done is to buy older houses and fix them up while I lived in them, and turn around and sell them and make a profit and I had to live free. And I did that for years in all the cities I lived in. so I bought the house the same way, wanting to fix it up. And I did over the years. Oh, we moved down in 1997. We left there in 2005, so that was 8 years. And 8 years I put a lot of hard work into it. I was still director of the, of the retreat for the spiritual exercises in everyday life. We had a training program, and did spiritual reaction, I saw quite a few people a week. And then I was a parent. Then, just because things got quiet, mom and I decided to adopt a sister. A Chinese sister, we went to china and we met [Lee-Joan?] And that was really a horrible, ugly, ugly American Time. We just felt so awful, Lee-Joan had lived with their biological mom for about a year, and she was left in a market, and then somebody found her and brought her to the police station. So she’s one year old and she’s in the orphanage system in china, which is really a very, not a very system. They put a couple kids per crib together; the poor babies don’t get much attention at all. But then she was in foster care and bonded to this other family, and they loved her. It was multi-generational, and they didn’t want to give her up. Of course we didn’t know all of this at the time. We were just wondering what happened to our baby because everyone else in the group had received their daughter, it was a couple days afterwards and we found out they, they went out to get her. And the foster mom had forced them, put them in a car and forced them to come to the Page 11 �hotel. I just received a knock on the door, and a baby was handed to me...it was Lee-Joan, and I hadn’t expected it that way. And the foster mom was just crying and crying. And we felt like the ugly American, who here are given a baby girl that was very, very happy. She wasn’t institutionalized, she was with a loving family and they wanted to adopt her, but the Chinese government wouldn’t let them. These foster parents still email us; I have a couple emails from them a couple times a year. And then we send pictures of Le Jone back to them. It was a year and half later when we went back and got Kaylee, your other sister... Now Kaylee, Kaylee was 18 months, and I forgot how old you were. And we...I went over with my sister, and mom stayed home to take care of you and Lee-Joan. First time we had left you we went to get Lee-Joan and left you with a couple and that really was very hard on you guys, and, the husband was. And especially trying to force you to eat food. I was not happy about that when we found this out...so we weren’t going to leave you with anybody this time. One of us was going to stay, and that was your mother. You and Lee-Joan were very, very close. She just ran to you the first time she saw you. And you just rolled around and were laughing and it was very, very warm and sweet. So Kaylee we picked up and we picked her up in a hall where all the other families had babies with 18 months old. I can tell that she was just different. That she were not like Lee-Joan, the sense that she wasn’t crying at all. The...the foster mother that she was with, the Chinese put them in foster care for...once they have match, they keep 'me with the foster mother for about 6 months before you come over and get all the paperwork...and finish the adoption. Then you stay in China for 2 weeks, just to acclimate. , that was very good. Kay was a character, she would just wave at people, shed just draw attention, they’d say she’s just so cute, and I’d draw attention cause were in a smaller town and there weren’t that many Americans. And most people in our party would leave the hotel, but Kaylee and I just went out all the time. This time I had her in a stroller 'cause I couldn’t carry her. On one trip we went to this Buddhist temple and she was on the bus and I was holding her. And she just started struggling to get away, she wanted to go outside and the bus was moving, and she just flipped forward and I threw out 2 vertebrae in my neck. It was so painful, I woke up the following morning, and my head was off to the side and couldn’t even stand up straight. Fortunately there as a chiropractor in our group and she kept putting it back and we flew the next day, flew out. It was a lot of pain and she was a handful. It was, long flight, like a 14 hour flight to come back to Seattle, but you met us with mom and Lee-Joan, as soon as we got off the gate and you guys just wrapped around Kaylee and holding her making her laugh and she was happy. She wasn’t happy on the trip over, but she was happy. And both of your sisters, cause the time is just the opposite. Both of your sisters for a month or so just didn’t sleep at night. They were awake. It took a while for them to get adjusted. Life was very good; it was a very nice place. You were going to a private school, and I had the girls, and worked on the house. I put a fence all the way around the property because I bought two donkeys at a school auction, thought it was a good idea at the time. But I put in a lot of work and a lot of money for those donkeys. Fenced in about an acre, big thick planks 'cause donkeys like to lean against the fence. And then I build ‘em a little barn. Around the house and our place there was a beautiful view, also we had 2 donkeys, we had chickens, what else did we have? Ducks, we had bunny rabbits, and a lot of slugs, about a herd of slugs. The only animal that would eat a slug was a duck. So we would laugh, you guys would just laugh watching duck trying to eat a giant slug, one of those banana slugs. Then we had little ducks running around, little chickens, little chicks running around. The chickens flew up in the tree. I had that sauna built, it was outside. It was built underneath these giant cedar trees. And the chickens went up in those trees, and those that couldn’t make it would Page 12 �not last into the season. The coyotes would get them. Then at night, we this big owl, and picked off a few of the chickens. One day, I remember hearing one of the chicks peeping really loud. And I kept looking around and couldn’t see him. And then I looked up and there was a crow flying with one of the chicks. And I chased after it, it went into the woods, and the woods were so thick I couldn’t follow it any further, but it was about a month after that that the chickens got even. A crow somehow got caught by the chickens, and the chickens killed it. All the chickens kept running in from all around the area, were pecking at it. And a large flock of crows starting coming. So there were the crows against the chickens, and the chickens won. Soon as the crow was more than dead, they just scratched and went back to their, the work of just eating bugs and laying eggs. That was a beautiful place. I just felt so peaceful there. We remodeled the kitchen; put a second floor on it. It got to be a huge project. I poured a lot of money into it. We were happy. Your aunt and uncle...uncle bonnie [Laughing] I mean Aunt Bonnie and Uncle Jim were close by and we had those two beaches just down the hill we could go to. There was a fishing pier; we had friends throughout the neighborhood. I remember all the kids would come by our little farm and just look at the animals and just watch them. In the morning some of the older people went for walks and would always bring carrots around for the donkeys, or apples. What do you remember the place? JFC: Just there was a lot of property. That just liked walking around. JAC: mm...yup. We had woods, we had pasture, had that big hill behind us. We made friends with our neighbors, Sam and Martha, and their daughter. Our girls got close to them. Sarah, Lee-Joan, and Kaylee just hung out all the time. They’d play in that hill between our two houses. Now they’re still close, they moved to Toronto and we still see each other, at least 3 or 4 times a year. And the girls are always talking on the phone, and now on the computer they do Skype. ... JFC: Well, I mean after that we moved to Michigan and we ... JAC: yup, we moved to Michigan. Your mother got a parish, it was, for me it was hard breaking because it was hard, I thought that was the house we were going to retire in. I poured so much of myself into it. Building a barn, a shed, a sauna, putting all the fences in. But, it seemed like it was time to go, so we moved to Michigan, were your mom’s the priest director at Saint John’s Church. And she’s pretty happy. She...she loves her work. You guys seemed to adjust pretty quick... you had the hardest time. It was middle school. You were starting 7th grade. You had an awful experience in 6th grade there at browns point. [Cough...] we never realized actually how horrible it was and ma was just tied up in her work so much, and I was tied up trying to save the Seabury school from going under financially. We just didn’t pick up on the...what was happening to you. You changed dramatically. JFC: well that’s alright. . Well, is there anything that , that you want to touch on. I don’t think...what...what ah, talk about, well you said you wanted to say some more about Bartonville. I don’t think I ever covered up what year you were born JAC: Oh yeah, I was born in 1946. Your grandpa was in china for a couple years and earned the point system. He was able to leave the theatre before the war was winding down. But they hadn’t dropped Page 13 �the bomb on japan at that time. But Germany, Europe, peace was over. They declared the war was needed in Europe. So the let him come home, where he had to fly in over the Himalayas. He was driven back. They made a road, a trail. So he was driving back on the road in a jeep. He got back, married your mother. He met my mother in a town called Bartonville, Illinois. That’s where she grew up. In a big 'ol farm house with two sisters. My father was stationed in Purea when he left Greenland. Where he went through training, working with these mules, he met the three sisters. And my grandfather and grandmother were old world hospitality. They would come on Sundays, 3 different men, and they would Sunday...Sunday... afternoon dinner together. And they did that for quite a few months. And all three sisters married the boys that they brought home for dinner. And throughout the war they wrote to each of them. So my father came back, got married, and took my mother to New Jersey where his family was, the Italian side of the family. Became pregnant, and that was me. I was born in in 1946 in October in jersey City, New Jersey. JFC: okay. . You good? JAC: yeah. JFC: Okay. END OF INTERVIEW Page 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7dc4b58386fee1ce5a7880e76ff87dcb.mp3 be051150223b91770862b4aba7835d39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Cospito_Joseph Title A name given to the resource Joseph Cospito audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cospito, Joseph Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cospito, Justin Description An account of the resource Joseph Cospito likes working on his house, playing with his children, being a stay at home dad, and listening to books on audio tape. He is a retired science professor who is married to an episcopal priest. He discusses growing up in the fifties in Bartonville, Illinois. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-09 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25a34507c1ce9da731c7419251690859.pdf 17248a8ef004197bc13074555b8a720f PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Ryan Cronk Interviewers: Kalle Tucker, Rachael Berkenpas, and Tyler Nowak Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/2/2011 Biography and Description Ryan Cronk is a student at Grand Valley State University, double majoring in Accounting and Economics. Ryan is an active member of the LGBT community as well as the Delta Upsilon fraternity. Ryan passionately works to educate others on LGBT issues within the Grand Valley community. He discusses religion and what it is like to be a gay male at Grand Valley State University. Transcript CRONK: Ok, so …we were talking about religion. Anyways, I was raised with a couple of religions. , I actually went to a Baptist church at one point. , I went to like a Christian church, and we went to…I don’t know what you would call it…it was Christian, but it was just off like, I don’t know. Maybe it was just a different style because it wasn’t like, go sit in pews, and get like, talked at, it was called …Resurrection Life Church. So it’s like, it’s more of a modern type church. I mean, they had an on-stage band that used like guitars and drums and all that. Yeah, I mean it was like Christian based but it wasn’t like what I would think of as a “traditional” church where we went to like a Baptist church then a traditional Christian church then we went to Resurrection Life. , so anyway, and we had it with those…we had some bad things happen like my mom, when she was going through a divorce with my biological dad was actually why we got kicked out of the Baptist church because they don’t believe, , in divorce. Or at least that particular church didn’t believe in divorce unless it was the man leaving the woman. They believed that the woman couldn’t leave the man. So anyway we got kicked out of that one. So anyway, overall as a kid I never really like religion, I never really got exposed to, you know, the good side of religion. , so then like, like growing up, you know, I started looking into for myself and I decided that I wanted to give it a try again and it was actually last ser that I started going to a church downtown called Saint Marks, and the reason I decided to try them out and like, just open myself up to that again was because they actually display a LGBT flag on the side of their church. , and they are open and completely welcoming to all people. It’s not like “you have to fit our, you know, particular view”, and even though they have , their roots specifically Page 1 �in Catholicism and all that, they think that religion is meant for everybody and it’s not like you have to fit perfectly in line with what this says in order to believe it. So, and I found that great because I’m one of the people where I can believe in something, even it’s not 100% what I am, type thing. Like for me, I have a lot of values that fall in line, like, with Christianity and Catholicism. So, I mean, like, sex before marriage, I really don’t like that idea so stuff like that. So I mean it was just nice for me to find a healthy outlet to be able to just go and see other people who thought that way too and then hear them say, “you know, we’re absolutely fine with that, we’re glad that you, you know, were able to find us and have a place to come and not feel discriminated against” or you know, like, having that feeling of really, that really awkward feeling I guess of like, when you go into a church and it’s like “oh I believe this, this, and this and that’s fine, but then they’re like, and we hate gays.” So then you’re like “oh, hey everybody…” type thing. So, you know, I just didn’t have that feeling, so yeah, I think I am on a really good level with religion right now. , unfortunately my step dad has used religion has a weapon against me because he is 7th Day Adventist and the way I classify them is they are kinda halfway between Judaism and Christianity, so they do a lot of things like oh you can’t eat pork and I’m like well…I eat ham so ok, not gonna work with this religion right away. , and they have really anti-gay views and stuff like that so he uses that, he is at this highest religious point when he tries to discriminate against people like, he’s willing to use any religious excuse to say that person is horrible, unless its him. Then everything is fine. So, if I had just been going off his example, I would have hated religion but since I found it for myself, and something I agree with, over all I am on a good level with religion. I respect people that have strong religious beliefs even if, you know, that they don’t like me because I am glad they have something to believe in. Unfortunately I wish they could see people for the…persons…that they are. Sorry, sometimes my English and grammar suck when I try to make up words, but I wish they would just see people’s sides of it that yes, you can have your beliefs about what I do is wrong, but you shouldn’t hate me as a person. , so, that’s one of the reasons I was so scared in high school because we have more churches than restaurants, so, it was kinda scary the idea that all my friends would be more on the religious side rather than the person side. So yeah. BERKENPAS: When you came to Grand Valley, what kinds of things did you get involved in? CRONK: Let’s see, freshman year I actually moved into one of the traditional dorms called Copeland Living Center. So, I actually, the first thing I got involved with was my Community Council because I was in Student Council in high school, and in middle school, so to me that was like, the most close thing so I just kinda wanted that safe feeling of something familiar, but I also get involved with the LGBT Center right away, my first week of classes actually, I went in and at that point, you were still able to just go in and sit and hang out in the Center but they changed their policy on that just because, , they wanted to become more a professional office where people could come with problems rather than just a ton of people hanging out in there. , Page 2 �so anyway, I started hanging out at the LGBT Center as much as possible because it was just nice to have that feeling of oh, I don’t have to care at all in here. , I also got involved with the group Out and About which is kinda like the GSA here and its open to LGBT students as well as its allies. It’s a social group, their actually the ones who put on the drag show like two weeks ago. , they also do the coming out event around the clock tower where you can like, sign the big door. So yeah, they do a lot of stuff like that, like social things on campus. They’re not really activist related; at least I didn’t think so. But, I mean, I had a lot of fun in there. It wasn’t exactly what I was looking for out of my college experience just because a lot of the people in there, not to say they were bad people but like I said earlier, a lot of them just have more bitter views towards the, you know, straight community or people who don’t accept the LGBT community. I’m not, I’m not looking to hate people about it, it’s like, you know, I find it unfortunate that they feel that way but I just want to do everything I can to just, be nice to them and accept them, where, some of them had views like it’s us against them. That’s the problem, it’s like we can’t have that on both sides. So anyways, I just kinda distanced myself from groups like that or people like that just because, you know, that not what I wanted, that s not how I felt. But I did end up getting involved with the Residence Housing Association, which, I worked with people from all housing areas on campus to put on events and then I, later got involved with Greek Life. I mean, I just found a lot of good outlets for the different things. I mean, through Greek Life I have kinda been able to help with LGBT things too because I mean, through my own fraternity, , I’m actually the one to give the LGBT speech or whatever because , our headquarters says we have to have a meeting based on LGBT civil rights or whatever. It’s not anything big or fancy; it’s just kinda like terminology and stuff like that. So yeah, anyway, Grand Valley just offered so many like new things for me to do and new ways for me to express myself that I tried to take as most advantage of that as possible, especially right away. TUCKER: So how was it joining a frat, because everybody has that stereotypical idea, even if Grand Valley isn’t like that at all? CRONK: Well first of all, I joined a fraternity. I did not join a frat. So that’s something that personally, I have really strong views on because frat is the stereotype. Unfortunately we do have a frat or two on campus but, I am part of a fraternity. But yeah, it was really weird because I believed a lot of the stereotypes going in and I was scared because I thought stuff like hazing and you know, paddling and abuse, and stuff like that, I was worried that was going to happen especially if they found out I was gay. So, when I actually started rushing freshman year, I didn’t bring out, I didn’t deny the fact I was gay, but I definitely didn’t bring out that fact that I was. So, I mean, clearly if someone asked me I would say yes, but if no one asked I didn’t say anything. , and then I found out that’s not what it’s like here at all. , I mean Grand Valley with their strong anti-hazing policies, I mean that clears up 50% of the stereotypes like you know, things that I was scared about right there. , I thought they were going to be very close-minded Page 3 �in the way that, you know, it’s a bunch of straight guys that are testosterone driven, you know, sports, that’s it…type thing. , that wasn’t it at all. I mean I found a place, like with the one I ended up joining, I found a place where it’s like I haven’t played a sport since I joined. I think I participated in one game of ultimate Frisbee before I was like ok that was fun, time to be done. , I mean, in my own fraternity there’s 3 other gay guys so there are a few of us. We’re not a huge number, but our brothers do accept us. When it comes to things like our formals, one of my brothers who is gay ended up bringing a guy as a date and I mean everyone was fine with that. I ended up bringing a guy as a date, and they all treated him just as fine. It’s not like, you know, do you see who he brought? They didn’t care. We were all there to have fun and it was, you know, a date event so they are all very accepting. I mean we, the way my fraternity formed, we actually started it here on campus, Delta Upsilon, wasn’t here until the first semester of my freshman year. So, we ended up, just kinda being thrown together. With some of the fraternities, they are so well established that, you know, they have a mold, and they only recruit people who fit that exact mold, where as for us we were so far out of a mold, like we had people who were at so completely different ends of the spectrum. Like we had really conservative people and some really liberal, so we all kinda got mashed together. We, actually had one brother, I won’t say his name, but he was very against like, you know, gays. He had that view of they are horrible people and they are going to hell, type thing and now just to see the progress he has made after getting to know us, it’s like he has really done a 180. Not that he is like, an ally in the sense that he like, loves gay people and wants to be surrounded by them, but when it comes to us he is not as anti-gay people. So yeah, a lot of things I think I was worried about joining a fraternity and I think things people, , kinda expect that fraternities are going to do like oh, they’re going to hate their gay members, they’re gonna single them out, they’re gonna haze them extra just because whatever, none of that happens. Especially here at Grand Valley, not that I have become aware of anyways and it’s definitely not what I went through. I was very glad to have that, I think I’ve had a great experience and with things like Greek Allies and Advocates that they started now, I mean, they’re just really proving that Grand Valley is a safe place, but also the Greek system is a great place to be yourself. So, I got really fortunate with that overall. [Long Pause] CRONK: I have a question for myself that might help you guys out, how’s that? [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Ok one of things I do get asked is, like when did you know? , like how early or whatever. And, my response to that usually is, because people get it in their mind that either you wake up one morning and all of the sudden it’s like oh my God, I’m gay, I’m gonna be gay now…or, like you’ve known forever and you’ve just been hiding it forever. I’m neither one of Page 4 �those. , like, when I was little, when I say little I mean like 6 or something like that…, is the first memory I have of any, anything to indicate my orientation at the time. It didn’t mean anything to me but looking back I’m like “Oh, well…I wish I had understood what they meant”, you know, way back when because I have an older sister that would let me play with her Barbie dolls. Well, I used to like her Barbie dolls more than she did…like completely, and I used to wanna play with the Barbie herself, and you know, dress her up and all that and my sister kinda didn’t care, like she used to wanna make them fight and stuff. She did a re-enactment of the Real World with Barbie and she made them smack each other and it was like oh, that’s weird but I always wanted to dress them up. , so I mean that didn’t mean anything at the time because you know, I was six and I could play with Barbies if I wanted to, it didn’t matter. But…then I used to just notice, like even at that age I would notice men and like, you know, males more than I would women. You know, at that age I never had any inclination towards women but like, maybe it was because I was a guy I just noticed, like you know, males more in terms of idols or, you know, the shows I watched, I don’t know. At that time again it’s almost like, you know, normal child whatever. , then when I got to the age of 10, maybe 11, …I hadn’t started developed feelings for girls yet. , you know, people at that time had started like dating and I just, wasn’t interested in that. I really didn’t understand why you’d wanna have a girlfriend or anything like that. So… I started to realize that just wasn’t normal because everyone would tell me it wasn’t normal like oh, you know, you’re not developing feelings for women. You know, 13, when my hormones were supposed to be raging and I was supposed to being going gaga over girls and trying to impress them, I just thought I really don’t care, I don’t see what the big deal is. It really wasn’t until I was about 13 or 14 I finally learned what gay was. For me, up until that boy me being more attracted to men was just a feeling but it didn’t have a term, or like a concept behind it…it was just something I felt. It wasn’t until…actually I think it was on TV and they were talking about, something like, gay rights and it was some kind of talking about marriage and you know, men marrying men, and I could relate the idea of marriage like “Oh, a man and a woman love each other they get married and that’s what you call a family.” Then I heard about marriage between two men and they called that gay, and I was like “Oh, well…I eventually want to get married to a man, so wait, what’s gay?” So, one day I went online and looked up gay and of course, Google or whatever search engine, brought up a ton of porn sites and I didn’t really know what that was so I went down and somehow I eventually found out, I think I ended up Webstering gay men and I still had, you know at 13, no idea what that meant. , but it just kinda attached a label to it…so, that was really my first exposure to what gay was. I went from being, you know, a normal kid that had feelings to who I was attracted to, to a kid that was gay and attracted to men, type thing. So, you know, that’s weird I kinda stopped being innocent on the idea of, you know, what LGBT is and all that and kinda of, moving into more 14/15 is when I was really getting ready to come out because it was really starting to build up like that’s who I really was, like I could identify my own feelings and I was starting to relate to Page 5 �them, finally. So that’s when I like, truly became a gay male more or less, because I had started to accept myself for that. [Ryan laughs] Ryan continues: And then I hit like, 16, when I came out. I actually came out as a bi-sexual. I talked to my mom like “Listen, I’m gay but I’m actually like, bi.” because I wanted to be at least bi, because it was like if I can’t be straight then at least let me be bi because, like, I can try to fit in by dating girls and stuff like that and…that was a complete like, kinda wish I had but then I realized I was gay. I didn’t like both, I just liked men so that was kinda like, that was kinda the transition I went through…”I’m not straight, maybe I’m bi, no I’m gay.” type thing. TUCKER: So how active are you? Like, with your rights and stuff, do you…I don’t know how to say what I’m thinking I guess… CRONK: Do I march in parades and wave rainbow flags? TUCKER: Yeah, well…you know what I mean, not to be stereotypical… CRONK: No, I know exactly what you mean. That’s …I’m really not, actually… to be honest, I’m just not an activist in general with like, anything. For me, the way I…promote my rights and the way I try to like, bridge that gap of inequality is by doing stuff like this. I try to sit down with people and just say “Listen, this is who I am, I’m really not any different from you…” well compared to you guys I guess I am… [Laughter from Group] Ryan continues: “I’m not really any different from you…I like men, I go to school, you know, I work, you know…” stuff like that, it’s like, I’m a normal person, I just happen to be a male that likes men. That’s a very small piece of who I am, but people like look at that like “Oh my God, that’s your entire life.” No, it’s not. So, …that’s really where I would consider myself an activist for gay rights is I try to break the stereotypes on a one-on-one basis with people and like, just because I’m gay doesn’t mean I have a lisp, doesn’t mean that I, you know, that I dress like a girl or really stylish, it’s like, I shop at Meijer, you know, I shop at American Eagle if I can afford it…which I can’t, so it’s like, you know, I’m not top of the line, I don’t ever see myself being a Lady Gaga…whatever, so you know, I like her music but I really prefer country so it’s like, all the things that people say “Oh you’re gay so you like…” I’m like “No, sorry.” [Laughter from Group] Ryan continues: So yeah, it’s like…I’m not really an activist but I try to, I try to just be real with people and hope that that will have the same affect because I think that “kill them with Page 6 �kindness” is way better than shoving my views in someone else’s face and saying “now change”. TUCKER: So maybe on like, the smallest scale…like, more individual level? CRONK: Yeah, I’m the smallest scale activist you’ll ever see. But I think I am one of the most effective, I would hope because like, I mean, I’ve seen with a lot of my friends, like, they think they don’t like gay people and they meet one and they’re like “Oh, you’re a real person…ok, I like gay people now.”. It’s like “There you go, see? That’s all it took.” So instead of like, the big parades…I mean, that’s great, I’m not against it, but I don’t need that to be proud of who I am, you know, my orientation and what I’ve been through, …but I’m sure some people do and if that’s how they find it best to, you know, try to make a change in the world, I want them to go for it, but you won’t see me doing that. [Ryan laughs] NOWAK: Do you think that like, the parades are effective in getting the point out? That’s it’s not really a bad thing? To be gay? [Ryan hesitates] Ryan he: I almost want to say no, and hopefully anyone that hears or reads this will not take offensive to that, just because …just like with any parade, you go out to a parade because you already believe in it or you already support it. You don’t really go out to a parade to have your mind changed politically, socially, whatever. So, I mean, it’s great that they’re making an appearance and saying, “Listen, this issue is very real, you know, you can’t say they are no gay people in Michigan because we’re here and there’s no gay people in the U.S., no, we’re here and you know, we are a thriving community and we are a culture.” However, I think some people over do it and I think some people try to use those as a tool to like, put their views on other people and that’s kinda, shooting itself in the foot just because if you’re forcing someone to think a way, they’re going to resist it. I mean, I went through it where people were trying to force the heterosexual lifestyle on me and I was like “No.” I was resistant to it and I didn’t want that and , I think that stuff like, you know, the gay pride parades, even some of just making people, you know, look at certain posters every day, I mean, to me that can be overstepping a boundary and like, putting your views on someone else. Why would we want to do that when we’re trying to fight it ourselves? So, I mean, I know they have a place and they are good, but sometimes to me they can get over the top. Like, what people try to do with them and what people try to show with them. I don’t know; personal view. [Ryan laughs] Page 7 �TUCKER: Do you ever see like, a changing coming? Because you said there is bias like both ways, like the gay community kinda resents the straight community for like, resenting them and it just sounds like a vicious cycle. Do you ever see a change? [Ryan sighs and pauses] CRONK: I would hope that there will be someday where like, the middle is just met by everyone and like, one day both sides will just… [Ryan sighs again] CRONK: I hate to say it this way so just completely understand what I’m about to say. It’s like, I think if one side, like the more hetero side in general would kinda lower their guard and be like, less outspoken, then I think the LGBT community could meet them by lowering theirs and then, you know. BUT, that’s not to say that, it’s…the heterosexual community’s fault that we resent them, have something against them, you know, because it’s not. There’s just as many accepting hetero people that get discriminated against by the LGBT community I’m sure, as there is the other way around. Just because, I mean…people are going to believe what they want to and they’re going to think what they want to based off from how they were raised. So, I think that, if everything works out perfect, I think someday compromise will be reached where everyone is going to realize that it’s like, we’re all just trying to live a life that’s fulfilling, you know, and whatever that means, I mean if that means getting married, I think that someday, you should be able to get married no matter who you are. But I also think that, you know, if you don’t want to, because like, that’s where the thing that bugs me too is that, people automatically assume that every gay person wants to get married and that’s our top issue. It’s like, I personally do want to get married someday, but that’s not the top thing I think about when I wake up is, “Oh, I’m gonna try to get gay marriage, you know, to be accepted because I want to get married someday.” It’s like, well it would be really nice, but I could live without it. At least right now I think I could live without it, …but anyway. I mean, I think someday there will be a compromise, and I think people will just realize that we’re all the same and we just need to accept that from now on. So, and maybe, who knows, you know a lot of the studies that we talked about in Milt’s class actually show that our generation is way more accepting than our parents were and they were way more accepting than their parents were, so it’s like, as long as that trend continues, I think that we’re all going to be happy in the future someday. So, I mean there will always be that small pocket that don’t, and there’s always going to be that small pocket of people who don’t like those people for that reason, but in general I think, you know, it’s gonna go down more and more, I mean it has been for generations. So, I hope at least. [Ryan laughs] Page 8 �NOWAK: I feel like you just keep answering my questions. I make a question in my head and then you answer it. [Laughter from Group] TUCKER: I know, I was so gonna ask like, “Oh, do you think it’s like, decreasing by generation?” [Ryan jokes] CRONK: Yeah, I’ve done this a time or two. [More laughter from Group] CRONK: How about another question for myself? Okay! [Group laughs again] CRONK: Like, just kinda, what are my plans for the future? Like, right now its fine that I’m doing all of this stuff in college but where do I see this taking me? Or how do I feel like I’m going to react once I’m out in the real world? Alright, well! To answer that question… [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Ok. Alright well Here’s what I think is. Well I’m really not sure at least this semester I’m trying to make it through college and really the rest of my life will happen but so far I want to go into the peace corp. because in my life I feel like I’ve been given a lot just like you know I’ve gotten a lot of opportunity in my life and I want to go give back as much as possible and through the peace corps. I can do that. It’s been something I’ve aspired to do since I was in high school and after that I either want to stay in a foreign country like I’ve always, It’s always kind of been my plan to move out of the United States because of the policy that you know is I can’t get married unless I stay and live in Massachusetts and you know a couple of other states, but it’s like when I can only be legally married in four states or something like that it’s not the right county for me type thing. I eventually want to move and live in a foreigner nation full time, not sure which one yet just because I kind of want to see where life take me. You know how I like things, and I may go into the Peace Corps and find out the United States is awesome and that I just want to stay here forever and if I were to stay in the US I’d probably wind up on the East Coast just because I mean I’ve been to Washington D.C. before. It’s like I haven’t really visited the West Coast too much and I don’t know much about the West Coast, But I love the like history of the East Coast with all the colonial you know heritage it has. I’d probably wind up there because I know that I could be happy there and there is a lot of things there that I could enjoy so yeah. That and I don’t ever intend on one day being a huge activist. I don’t plan on someday growing up and leading one of the parades or anything, but I just hope someday to always be someone others can come to like to find out more like in a business someday Page 9 �whether I run a business because I’m kind of considering into looking into that still or whether I just work for a business I want to be involved somehow in like the HR side where I could be I don’t know one of the people in the office that is open to work issues related to the LGBT community because at least here in Michigan there is not many I think Grand Valley is one of the few actually public universities that embraces LGBT community in the way of that they have the equal partner rights or partner benefits or whatever. , but it seems like Grand Rapids actually do have city things on the book that make it so businesses don’t necessarily have to keep LGBT people but overall it’s not a reason that they would necessarily fire you I mean not every single one, but there are a good number of them so that’s encouraging. So anyway I would want to be someone in a business like that. That just can help relate between maybe people who don’t understand why this is a problem in the workplace to those who are like going through it and kind of facing that. So I don’t plan on making a career out of being gay, but hopefully I could use it to help my future career so. NOWAK: Do you think that like Grand Valley and like Grand Rapids in general like accepts like in the workplace a lot of that stuff? Are they getting better? CRONK: I say Grand Valley is definitely like I am completely on the Grand Valley bandwagon when it comes to like equal rights for people of all gender and ethnicities stuff like that. There amazing. Grand Rapids I haven’t had much experience like I lived in the bubble of Coopersville so and then I’ve kind of lived in the bubble of Grand Valley, but when I lived in Grand Rapids this ser I did apply for jobs and I didn’t hide the fact that I was gay and I ended up not getting hired at them. So I mean, not to say the oh I applied for this job and I didn’t get it because I was gay but it’s like “Oh maybe that’s just you know not as good that I was willing to say that you know to them,” but if I don’t get a job because I am gay I am completely ok with that. I mean that’s not something that should determine like with fuel me being gay doesn’t affect how the sandwiches I make turn out. I mean it means nothing like maybe if I was working in, I don’t even know what that would affect. I can’t even think of a job that that would influence my performance. So anyway, so but I mean with the night life I mean with the couple of gay clubs in Grand Rapids and just the fact there aren’t a lot of bias incidents that I’ve heard that have happened in the Grand Rapids area where a homosexual person being beaten in the street or something like that. I mean, it makes me really comfortable with being gay you know even in the Grand Rapids area and with such the Hipster you know trend that’s coming out in Grand Rapids I means there’s more people that are not caring on a like community basis so I mean coffee shops, it doesn’t matter who goes to it, you’re going to have a good time. (Whispering) NOWAK: going back to like you wanting to go to the Peace Corps do you worry a lot about your mom like leaving or do you just feel like you just need to progress? Page 10 �CRONK: I do, this is actually the first year I have lived outside the home with from the family, I actually live in a house here in Allendale now, and it’s like yeah I worry she’s still- has medical problems that I found out like yesterday she had three seizures in one day and that was like 3 or 4 weeks ago and I am just finding out about it. So it’s like stuff like that worries me and I do spend time like thinking about whether I made the right decision leaving, but I completely believe in my independence because I want to take care of her but at the same time I have obligations to myself that I have to kind of fulfill. Because like living at home I would go to class and then I would go home, and then I might do a few of my fraternity activities, but that was mainly it, I wasn’t able to like spend, I wouldn’t be able to go out all weekend and stay with friends. It would be I’d have to come home because mommy and daddy are still you know checking on you and stuff like that wondering where you are. I didn’t have a car, so I would borrow my moms, so there was that and so kind of like yeah I believe that I know I have a lot of things that like between what- where I am now and where I want to go as a person, moving out was a major step but yeah I still have that worry what happens I’m not there and what should I be doing as a good son to like take care of that. Because I still believe in the old fashioned idea of like the children should take care of their parents. Just like in general like I don’t like the idea of retirement homes, like I wish that my family had been able to have like my grandma move in with us and like stay with us because she could have taken care of us while my parents were at work and stuff like that, but our society doesn’t necessarily believe that anymore so I’m kind of stuck in the old fashion idea of it, but so but I see that eventually I do want my mom to move in with me like when I’m older you know once a have an established job. I’ll probably be forty or something before any of that can happen, but I do eventually intend on like at least my mom moving back in with me when she gets older. It’s nice because I can go out and party and not worry about it anymore. I finally enjoyed spending time with friends all weekend and not worrying who I’m going home to at night because my roommates and all that are doing just as much like they’re gone just as much as I am… CRONK: Crazy roommates. [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Rachael, how has your stuff with relationships been working out? Rachel: My what, oh, what? CRONK: Dating. Rachel: Yeah, How has relationships been working out for you? CRONK: Well actually I have never had a gay relationship, and I’ve been out since junior year of high school and it’s my junior year of college. Yeah anyway, that’s another thing that when it comes to stereotypes is that “Oh, we’re whores” more or less like that’s one that I’ve heard Page 11 �from my family there like “Oh, are you just going to sleep around?” Now I’m like “No, I still have values.” , so yeah it’s like one of those stereotypes is that the LGBT community is just full of whores and you know we don’t really care about having long term relationships we just kind of want to have fun “Hit it and quit it” you know whole thing. That is not what I believe at all, and I always like- it kind of sickens me the idea of “hit it and quit it” it’s like sorry no that’s not what I want for myself and that’s not what we want in general. , I do want to be in a relationship like especially in college and that’s one of the things that has been challenging is even though I have taken this whole process of coming out and like being comfortable with myself and I still haven’t found that someone, and like everyone says “Oh yeah, first of all with high school is where you know can learn about dating for the real world.” Well then when I came to college everyone’s like “oh yeah, this is where you should be able to just you know date whatever and if you break up with someone well it really won’t matter that much because there’s plenty of other options.” And I’m like “Thanks. I love hearing that” because I haven’t dated anyone even though I’m willing to it’s not like I’m sitting there reading a book saying all the time “oh no I just don’t want to be in a relationship.” Like if I could get into a relationship right now I would. Unfortunately it’s one of the struggles I face even here at Grand Valley is just the idea of there’s still not a lot of opportunity. Like I came from a place where there was no opportunity for dating and no there’s opportunity I just don’t get that opportunity to. So , and that has played a big part in some of the struggles I’ve had a Grand Valley just because it kind of wears you down at least for me because I am very social. I’m very much very much like- I’m vested in other people and I just wish I had that one special person that was just kind of a relationship for me where all the relationships I have right now are like friends, business or my business fraternity like brothers, my social fraternity brothers, all that. It’s all things where I give 100% and I might get something back. And I just want that feeling of always getting you know always getting something back from someone else and not really having to try. So it’s like, that’s one of the struggles that I would say I still face is just that feeling of I still feel like it kind of like it wasn’t worth it coming out and all this because yeah I have good self-esteem now but I haven’t really gotten everything I want out of it, and even though to me it feels like it should be a really small thing to get back, it’s been a really big problem so I mean just that. I found here at Grand Valley this is personal experience I sure if you talk to a million- you know or if you talk to every gay person on campus it would be a different story, but for me it’s been because I didn’t date in high school like men at least that people- other gay men here on the campus aren’t really open to dating me just because I don’t have the experience or there’s the other half that because I’m not a whore they don’t want to date me because they want whores to date more or less. So it’s like it’s a really bad reflection on us because it’s like the people that do just sleep around perpetuate the stereotype that all we do is just sleep around but unfortunately I’ve found here you know that I fall in a really weird middle of, I haven’t really dated and slept around and because I haven’t dated and slept around that people just don’t want to date me, and I’m like Page 12 �“How does that work?” Like you would think somewhere there would be you know people that would say “Wow, that’s really great I’m really happy about that,” but so far I haven’t found any. TUCKER: So it’s not a matter of like meeting people like meeting other guys it’s just like more of like your morals don’t match sometimes? CRONK: Kind of. I guess I don’t know. I know a very small group of the gay community here at Grand Valley just because the ones I met through the center and those were pretty much all of those were the ones that were like angry more or less about what they’ve been through, and I was like “Ok, so that kind of disqualifies all those people right there.” And then the Greek men that I’ve met that are gay and yeah, there kind of the ones that are the whole they enjoy their freedom, let’s just put it that way, more than so it’s not like I’ve met every gay person here on campus, but the one’s I have, yeah, things just haven’t worked out. So , but with- I work technically five jobs and all that so it’s like I don’t really have time to go out and meet everybody, and the few sources I have found that kind of get my name out there are not exactly the most respectable ones. So , I wish I could just meet people that are more like myself in the way ones like you would never suspect are gay until you find out “Oh, they’re gay” type thing, and I don’t get to meet a lot of people like that. NOWAK: Do you think they are a lot of people who like struggle with that? Like just not like obviously there’s not that many at Grand Valley because you haven’t found… CRONK: Yeah, I would think there are. I mean I would to think there’s a lot of people kind of just like me except they’re not as vocal about you know about who they are. , where yeah, I mean they probably came from the same type of background, raised here whether in Michigan or another form of the Bible Belt where it’s like they never got to experience that before and even though they have the opportunity here I’m sure they have friends who are really supportive of them, but just in general they still kind of keep to the idea that it’s not accepted because everywhere but Grand Valley like Grand Valley is kind of a little dot in the middle of a lot of hate, a lot of backwards policies. , so anyway, I’m sure they are thinking long term like kept that to themselves, like self-preservation I would say, and that kind of makes me sad because I know some- I know one person in particular where they’re kind of in the denial phase that they’re still straight. Anyway, so high school, but. [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Sorry, but anyway. They , it’s like that person in particular I wish they would realize how ok it is to go through that process now because once they get out of here it’s going to be twenty times harder. Like if it’s challenging now, it’s going to be even harder once you get out there and you know you don’t have that small island that we have here of acceptance and freedom to try- like because you know even that group out and about, I mean I Page 13 �didn’t like it but I at least had the opportunity to try to be around like minded people, and you know so, , I’ll be really sad if people don’t get to take advantage of that before they leave here, and I mean I think it would be really hard to try to after seeing that even if they weren’t a part of it to try to go through the process in a group of- area that is not accepting you know like it is here. NOWAK: Do you think that it could be also that there are just like people who are like on the fence kind of who don’t really want to come out and are just kind of timid about it? Like CRONK: I’m sure there is a large population of that too. , I mean it’s a choice. For me it was a choice that was a no brainer to make, but I am sure it was- there is a struggle for a lot of people that, I mean you’re literally changing your life even though you’re not really changing anything about yourself, you’re changing how other people are going to see you. , and it’s something that I wish more people could relate to just the idea of, to a certain extent you have to give up everything you know, everything you’re comfortable with. , because you really do have to redefine everything you know when it comes to like, like how you act towards other people may completely change, like how you’re willing to act towards other people. , so I definitely remember and understand what it’s like to be one of those that- it’s just a struggle to say “is it worth it? Should I?” because there is so much good that could come from it, but there’s a lot of bad you have to acknowledge when making you know that choice of- because when I say choice I don’t think being gay is a choice it’s acknowledging on a like external basis that you’re gay is where the choice comes in. So, I was born gay or I was you know whatever. On a fundamental human level I was always gay, and the reason I chose to be gay was because I chose to let other people know. I didn’t choose to you know perpetuate the façade that I was straight, and like I think a lot of people haven’t got to that point yet. You know, they’re not comfortable enough; they don’t have enough incentive yet. I mean I know people who were raise in an area that was actually accepting of gays, some of them still haven’t come out. They have come out to a couple people, but they still haven’t come out in general. Just because there is no incentive, people already accept who they are, gay or not. So they’re like “Why should I come out when I’m not?” Where I felt like people weren’t accepting me for who I truly was so for me the incentive was to come out and say “Well listen, you can take me or leave me for who I actually am not who I’m pretending to be.” So I mean maybe some people just need more incentive and maybe that’s- someday they’ll want a relationship and it’s like well now I need to say you know “Oh, I’m gay. I’m going to date people now.” And when I say gay I kind of incorporate LGBT with that. I’m sorry I’ve been using that over and over, but that’s the one I relate to most, because I am. So, like yeah I’m kind of using gay as a blanket term for homosexual. So anyway, sorry. Page 14 �TUCKER: You kind of touched on this, but like let’s say a student twenty years from now. Is your biggest advice to get active and like not deny yourself like to get involved in groups so you can be a part of it? Or what would you say? I know it’s a big question. CRONK: No I, yeah that’s great. I mean, if someone is listening to this twenty years from now and having to decide whether to make that choice or not I would hope they’d just decide to do what’s best for them because that’s you know I that’s really vague and it’s like but it’s that’s the only way that we can do this. I’ve heard stories of people being forced to come out. Like they’ve confided in someone and then that person spread it to like their entire high school and so the person was forced, and that’s a horrible experience. I mean they were completely crushed. They had to go to counseling for stuff like that. So I would never want to be that way, but and I know some people wouldn’t be comfortable like me where it’s just like “Oh, if you ask me I’m going to tell you the truth.” So, I mean just do what’s right for you. I know at the beginning of my process I printed out pictures of men I found attractive and my way of getting it back is I had a folder of these pictures underneath my bed, and that was enough for a while for me because then I felt like “Oh, you know I can look at attractive men without being weird,” you know like people seeing or whatever. , and if that’s enough for people start with that, you know , start reading you know stories by gay authors with gay characters. Watch Modern Family you know that has a gay couple and the daughter Willy. I mean you know whatever, just small steps like that can make you feel better about yourself and help you decide you know if you’re like ready. If you’re you know, if this is how you want to go. Because I mean the gay lifestyle, I consider it- there to be a gay lifestyle. I know there’s controversy that saying “You know, no there’s a human lifestyle, part of it just happens to be gay.” To me there is a gay lifestyle; I mean we are our own culture. And I mean some people may find it’s just not for them, I mean there are things that I know I don’t agree with you know when it comes to like the practices of LGBT people and stuff like that. So it’s like maybe they’ll just find out in general that they don’t want to be associated with that at all. You know if that’s where their feelings are they may just find it’s easier and better for them like especially if they are really religious and their religion really doesn’t support it. You know, I just hope they would do what they feel is best because at the end of the day you have to make yourself happy. and this is one of those things that you definitely have to be comfortable with yourself in order to embrace it like in order to go through it because there is a lot of challenge that you have to get over ii and sometimes like I would lay in bed at night and the only thing that like made it all worth it was the thought that’s I’m finally doing what’s best for me, not for what’s necessarily better for everyone else. So , Hopefully that answered it. TUCKER: Yeah CRONK: I’m Sorry. Page 15 �TUCKER: No, it’s ok. CRONK: mind. Sometimes I feel like I talk in circles, but I swear it’s all irrelevant in my [Laughter from Group] TUCKER: Is there anything we haven’t talked about yet that you want us to know, want everyone to know I guess? CRONK: Not really, I mean I don’t know. It’s not like even though I’m gay and like obviously I have the normal human desires. I want to date someone and stuff like that. It’s not really something I think about on a daily basis anymore like when I was coming out it was. It used to be a really big point in my life, but I mean since I’ve gone through the process and since I consider myself growing up I mean I would hope I am always becoming more mature like every day. , it’s just another piece of who I am. It’s not the whole puzzle. So , I just hope that people get to see that. I hope more people get to understand that you know being gay is not a bad thing. I mean, it has depending on your religion, depending on your raising it may not be the best thing, but I don’t think I’m going to hell. You know, I think and if I am going to go to hell it’s because I have done a lot of other things that are going to put me there. This isn’t one of those things. , and hell, man if I go to hell for that I hope I get to date there I mean I won’t have a problem meeting people. So, got to look for the silver lining in it. So I mean, you know whatever , and I think I do enough good things on this earth, you know, to the god I know and the god I believe in see’s that and you know puts it on a scale you know. So , I can’t think of anything else. NOWAK: a half. I don’t know if we have anything else to add. We’ve got like a house and TUCKER: Do you feel good about it? CRONK: I love it. I am glad you guys are doing this. I’m glad your teacher is getting you guys involved because I mean I can’t speak from the heterosexual side, but I mean hopefully you guys are at least learning something, getting a new prospective. NOWAK: Yeah. TUCKER: Yeah, definitely. [Group discusses project technicalities] Page 16 �CRONK: Ok, cool. [Ryan laughs]. So no, I’m glad you guys are doing this it really makes me feel good to like see that maybe so- and I like the idea that maybe I’m making a difference for somebody someday somewhere, so. I like it, good ego boost for the day. [Laughter from Group] NOWAK: Well thanks for sharing everything. TUCKER: Yeah, thank you. CRONK: Absolutely, thank you guys for having me. END OF INTERVIEW Page 17 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9287ae8463ff36b9929ea3d942fd506e.mp3 f1d07e747adb87cca5749ae00abdd331 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Cronk_Ryan Title A name given to the resource Ryan Cronk audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cronk, Ryan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tucker, Kalle Berkenpas, Rachael Nowak, Tyler Description An account of the resource Ryan Cronk is a student at Grand Valley State University, double majoring in Accounting and Economics. Ryan is an active member of the LGBT community as well as the Delta Upsilon fraternity. Ryan passionately works to educate others on LGBT issues within the Grand Valley community. He discusses religion and what it is like to be a gay male at Grand Valley State University. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f21ace56fb55b08f2f26289e7195ff7.pdf f1f6379686ea07710856d139ff23c536 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Ivo Soljan Interviewers: Logan Knoper, Alyssa Hall, Tim O’Neil and Tierra Jackson Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/23/2012 Biography and Description Ivo Soljan compares and contrasts the different countries that he has lived in. Transcript O’NEIL: Ok, we just need you to say what your name is. It’s lvo Sol SOLJAN: Ivo (EE-VO). That’s how you pronounce that. O’NEIL: Oh, I’m sorry SOLJAN: That’s ok. That’s Ok. Some call me even “Evil”. Don’t do that. Ivo Soljan. O’NEIL: Ok, could you say that just once so we have a SOLJAN: Ivo Soljan O’NEIL: Alright. SOLJAN: OK. O’NEIL: So, could you give us, like, a basic biography; where you are from, how you got to West Michigan? SOLJAN: Yeah. Born about 85 years ago.{laughter} No. Born about sixty four, right now, an old guy. Came here to Grand Valley in 1991. So it’s been twenty years now. But I was in connection with Grand Valley even earlier than that because my university in Europe where I taught, and Grand Valley used to have a very fruitful exchange program. It was the University of Sarajevo in former Yugoslavia, in Bosnia. And it was established as one, probably the first exchange program between Grand Valley and some other university overseas. And in ‘75, 1975. So I participated in a number of activities the symposia every second year, either at Grand Valley or over there in Europe, and also there was an exchange of students here. So I was really quite engaged in that, so when there was a war which was kind of a serious war I needed a place to continue my life, and applied, and was invited to come here, and to be interviewed. {Iaughs} Page 1 �O’NEIL: {laughs} Yes. You mentioned overseas. Could you give us, like, a country? SOLJAN: The country, as I mentioned, the country is formerly Yugoslavia, which doesn’t exist any longer. It fell apart during that war because it was it was an artificially created country. Like Czechoslovakia, or a number of- or even the Soviet Union if you ward. it consisted of six republics, like six states in the United States. And, so it was a unified country, but it didn’t really function quite well. and there were very strong movements within the country to kind of, coming from different sides, to get independent and kind of break that united kind of somewhat like the American CMI War, and perhaps even in terms of if you compare that in terms of the number of the dead and the victims it’s pretty comparable. In Yugoslavia, about 200,000 people died and in America, about 600,000, but, if you compare the populations, it would be pretty much the same ratio. So that’s the country. And the city, as, I mentioned the city that I lived in, I wasn’t born there, but I taught there for 20 years, is the city of Sarajevo, which is often it often used to be mentioned at least when you were all toddlers because when the war was there the city was besieged for three and half years. It was really in very, very bad shape. A lot of people died. — O’NEIL: Logan, do you want toKNOPER: Well I mean we can just start little bit about the city you were born in and about your childhood over there, growing up. What was that like? SOLJAN: Mm-hm. Yeah. I was- I’m sorry I have a lot of stuff upstairs, but I couldn’t really prepare- The city I was born in is, it’s kind of a funny name in English, it’s called “Split”. but it’s not really Split, though I occasionally joke that I’m a Split personality. {laughs} But the thing is that it’s a Mediterranean city on the coast of thethe sea that is part of the Mediterranean and that sea is known as the Adriatic, Adriatic Sea. That’s the sea which is probably somewhat bigger than Lake Michigan. And that’s the sea where Venice is so that particular part. I was born there, virtually with my feet, you might say, in the sea. My father was a marine biologist. He led a significant marine biology institute there. So my first ten years of my life were really just- kind of swimming if you want. KNOPER: Yeah. SOLJAN: Yeah. For some reason, we moved to Sarajevo, which is inland, but it’s not very far inland. It’s probably about three hours drive. O’NEIL: Okone of the big buzzwords of the assignment: Identity. Is there any, like, specific things that you can think of about how moving to West Michigan has shaped your identity? SOLJAN: Yeah O’NEIL: I mean, your sense of humor seems very- relatable. {laughs} SOLJAN: {laughs} Thank you. Well, things, any change is a change, and initially it wasn’t easy because we, in that kind of panic, and it wasn’t just panic, it was actually well calculated. We went to holidays, basically, trying, hoping that that war would finally be stopped by the European powers in America, but it wasn’t completely for four years. So that, we basically left everything. All of our possessions, our Page 2 �assets- home, just name it. Our library, all our investments in the retirement funds and so on, just was wiped away. So, west Michigan, or rather Grand Valley I should say, has always been a nice place to us. Before coming here permenantly as a (?) scholar I spent a year in California, then a year here, and I was always very friendly with a lot of people around here among the administration and the professors. I taught english, in fact, in ‘89 and ‘90. I was very friendly with President Lubbers. I don’t know whether the name at all, but he used to be- he was our first president- oh, actually the second, but I mean the first, in that he was 32 years on the helm of Grand Valley. So it’s- in many ways it’s been a soft landing and it’s been a soft landing also becauseboth my wife and I are in English studies, so english really wasn’t a problem for us. it’s not like you find yourself suddenly on Mars Something wenot only we could – I mean, because of our qualifications would could actually teach (laughs) American students how to speak proper english. ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: So our english- our english used to be prominently British english. And some of that is still probably noticeable in my pronunciation, but I’ve been teaching for twenty years, so it’s been lost. Our children also spoke english and they liked it immediately It was fine. We knew- it was it wasn’t like falling from the moon. We lived in California one year before that and then Grand Valley another year. Then we went back home for just one and a half year. there were significant political things that were happening there we wanted to participate in that, and, it was realized that it was going to be much more painful than we expected. So we came here and Grand Valley, - from our first, we lived in Grand Haven. And it’s a great place too. It’s a small city, or rather “tn-city” as they call it. And found plenty of friends, very manageable. We lived- all our lives we’ve lived in big cities. I mean, Sarajevo is half a million or more than that and in other in London, in- just name it- but we like the- especially now when the children have gone. they got married and have families, so it’s easier. It’s kind of nice to live a rather simple life. If we need entertainment, it’s mostly in terms of music, opera, stuff like that. Or lectures. This area offers you plenty. It’s just amazing how much you have here. The colleges, there’s Aquinas and there’s Calvin and there’s Hope and there’s Grand Valley, you just, - plenty. So we don’t miss that, I mean that is something that is plentiful here and we enjoy that. There are plenty of opportunities. KNOPER: You mentioned you were, your dad was a marine biologist and you loved the water and stuff, so Grand Haven do you—? SOLJAN: -Oh yeah! Oh yeah! We often actually refer to the lake as “the sea.” “Oh, look at the sea today.” It’s kind of automatic. Oh yeah, it’s lovely actually We just like it, the- well, what we miss in fact is thekind of this smell of the salty sea. Otherwise it’s just lovely. Yeah, we enjoyed it. O’NEIL: You mentioned a couple kids? maybe — SOLJAN: Yeah. There are a couple kids, in fact well, they will be kids forever. (laughs) But the son isthirty, thirty one, and my daughter is thirty six. he lives in New York and he completed his studies here. It was half price. So why not? (laughs) ALL: (laugh) Page 3 �SOLJAN: He studied- he studied English and Spanish and ended up in film industry. he is really a smart guy and he elbowed his way into the film world. He is a producer in New York and kind of makes a big buck. He enjoys- his wife is fine. They have a little kid, little Allegra, who is a year and a llttle bit more now. Now the daughter is in the Hague and she is a very smart woman. She is a lawyer by profession. And she works for this international court for war crimes, in the Hague in the Netherlands. Her husband is Dutch too. And so, they have one kid, they have a little- little girl, little Nora and they are expecting a second one in May. So things are- they are well placed. They seem to be happy in their lives. But of course, kids are kids, as all too well. (laughs) O’NEIL: Just little details: were they born here or—? SOLJAN: No, no. No, we came here- I was nearly, I was forty three, four, something like that. They werethe son was eleven when we came here to stay. Although they were, as I mentioned, we were here before so when he first visited he was eight. But he was eleven when we came to stay and the and the daughter--. They had five years difference, so she was, well, sixteen. So she completed the final year of the senior year of high school here then went and did her studies at Massachusetts at a rather small college and went to NYU, New York University, to complete her legal studies. O’NEIL: Ok, so we’re going to bounce around a bit here SOLJAN: By the way I’ve never been on drugs. ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: -for the record. KNOPER: Oh well that question came later- (laughs) SOLJAN: I’m very healthy. O’NEIL: Have you lived anywhere else in the United States? I’m sorry if I missed that detail earlier. SOLJAN: Well I did mention it earlier- We lived in Irvine, California, which is kind of a broader, metropolitan L.A. and we lived there for a year. I was a Fuibright scholar doing my post-doctoral work. that was about twenty two years ago. I enjoyed that very much, that was very nice. But otherwise, no, no, we didn’t really. We kind of stuck here. I was traveling a lot all over America because I worked. I used to work during the summers for the US State Department and they- the assignment would usually be to take the European delegations for three week visits to America. So in that capacity, I was contracted by the State department probably for about, at least thirty five states. I was going all over America. I haven’t seen Hawaii. I haven’t seen Alaska, but otherwise, — O’NEIL: Is there anything you noticed about the people in those areas of the country? Like, the way they treat you or other people around them? SOLJAN: Mmhm. Oh well Americans are very, very hospitable I must say that Well, I must in other parts of the world too We often hear about the English being cold and reserved We lived in England for four years all together, off and on. the English can be {hospitable} also— it’s just a question of they don’t hug Page 4 �so much, like we in America. They tend to be kind of private and they have a little suspicion if you hug them too much. ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: But otherwise, no. we know other nationalities. We also spent time in Italy, and we have friends in France and so on. So, people are- you find good people and friendly people everywhere. And you find also, I don’t know, I wouldn’t call them “bad” people but, the people you wouldn’t gladly spend time with. You find them everywhere. O’NEIL: The less nice. SOLJAN: Mmhm. O’NEIL: Ok, continuing with the civil rights topic, like how people treat each other- has anyone, like you or your family been — SOLJAN: Mmhm. — Welt, no. We’ve never really— As a matter of fact we’ve been treated always as if we were special. The one thing was the compassion, the fact that they knew that we lost everything and were the victims of the war in that sense. So they extended help, “Whatever you need..” and so on. Always only positive. But then of course, I think it’s always mutual. We’ve always treated people very very nicely. And I think it’s, it’s a very simple rule it’s kind of the “the rule of thumb” as they call it. “You treat me well, I’ll treat you well.” There are of course, there are segments of any population and you see, we had this civil war which was- terrible, where some of my— very close friends ted out to be war criminals. Kind of— participating in—slaughters and what not. So you never know. Things happen in life. But to us, it’s been a— a very good experience. I might even say blessing. our children had a- stable place to continue their life. We enjoyed- our life back home was very good. I had very good- I worked at the university and taught there for about twenty years and was highly respected. My wife, she was a high school teacher and then editor later on in a publishing house. So, it was a good life. But then suddenly, everything just caved in. So you change everything. You adapt. The most important thing is to be able to adapt. Accept what life brings you. O’NEIL: Were there any people in particular that affected your thinking about- particularly ethnicities or genders or religions? SOLJAN: I wouldn’t say so. we as a family are catholics and of course in America the church life is - in contrast to many, MOST, of the rest of the world. It is one of the hubs where people, I mean very often you have the impression that it’s more of a- club. You cannot feel that so much because you live here but if you go to other countries, there’s much more indifference, Americans on the whole are very religious. At least they say, or at least they think they are. But for those who go regularly and attend churches it’s often really—companionship, more- I don’t know. I don’t want to be nasty, but sometimes it’s not really something profoundly spiritual at it is just getting together, having donuts and coffee. Well, there’s nothing wrong with that! After all, the relationship, the companionship is religion. get together and be together and help each other. So no. I must say-well, I’ve come across bigotry, there’s no doubt. Not against me, but I’ve heard where people are speaking about the blacks very very, - in a Page 5 �way that you don’t like to hear. Or others it’s not just blacks, it’s- but then, these are the people that, you normally wouldn’t associate yourself with anyway. And you’ll keep them at arm’s distance. So there is, sadly there is still- you know and that’s part of my— You asked me, or whoever did, in my Anthropology class—, I have a pretty big political experience. I participated in a number of political events here in America, and back home. One of them was peace negotiations in Dayton, Ohio. You weren’t born, or were little kids so you don’t remember that. It was November of ‘95, which actually ended that war in the Balkans. It was a very exciting thing to see all these, kind of, dignitaries . And I was invited by President Clinton actually to go and accompany him to go to Bosnia on Air Force One to visit the troops So then, you find wonderful people and of course you find people who would definitely need some— re education. Especially in the sense of the feelings of superiority, but you have that in other countries too. The thing that particularly hurts me, because I’m an American, we got American, nationality in 2001 so it’s been ten years now, is that especially now the treatment of the people of the middle east. The Muslims and the— there is this rather unjustified sense of superiority “These are the primitive guys that have to give us our oil, because that’s our oil. If not we’ll kick some butts.” ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: So, this whole ideal - and that’s very often actually articulated as “ugly American” or “arrogant American”. There is that. You find that also that some people I’ve met that belong to the militia the Michigan Militia. There is a lot of bigotry there. I won’t say that, at least publicly they’re not Ku Klux Klan, but a lot of their thinking is along these lines. KNOPER: So what would you say in the big scope the “American view” of other cultures or other countries versus your country’s, or Yugoslavia’s view, or the world view? How would you compare their views? SOLJAN: Well, again I must say, sadly, because America is such a huge country, and such a huge potential economic and whatnot, Americans are very ignorant. That’s one thing that, well, you are privileged because you come to college and suddenly your eyes open. But it’s just —what’s Jay Leno’s—, there’s a part of the program he does every several weeks where he—”Jaywalking” or something like that, where he confronts these youngsters and asks them “What is the capital of America?” “Puerto Rico!”, these guys know nothing! No history. Sadly, it’s the consequence that these subjects are being removed. “Oh, do we need that? We’re a big country. We’re so important.”, but it really, —it closes your horizons, and that’s not good. I just, right now, an hour ago, or two hours ago— there was a lecture in Kirkhof center. There was a guy from one of the universities in Pennsylvania talking about American politics and policies in the Middle East. And it’s defeating to see that most Americans don’t even know, after ten years of the war in Iraq, “Where’s Iraq?”, and stuff like that. Not interested!, American population, like so many others, and I see that actually being spread all over the world, that’s the very strong, American consumerism. People are primarily consumers. Buy, buy, buy. And in a number of homes you don’t have books at all. A book is a rarity. There are televisions perhaps in every—there’s a plasma in every room, and then there are eight hundred channels but seven hundred ninety-nine are nothing something like that. So there’s a huge offer on the market, but very little- very little selectivity. That should be and that could be. I know that from the education of my kids and I Assume you are in the same thing. If you try and you get good direction from your professors and the surroundings where you are, America can Page 6 �easily produce brilliant kids, brilliant experts. But a lot of that is basically just buy your car, buy your home, go and spend some time—a lot of time in casinos and go to Las Vegas, that kind of stuff. In order, politically speaking, in order actually to keep social unrest controlled—because there is a lot of reason for unrest—there is a huge difference in income that’s a problem right now, so huge it’s just unbelievable. In order to keep people peaceful, give them things to buy! That’s exactly what President Bush after 9/11 just said, “Oh,”, “go out and buy! Go out! Shop!” (pause) SOLJAN: Anything else guys? O’NEIL: I have one little thing SOLJAN: A couple of jokes from Bosnia? ALL: (laugh) O’NEIL: If you want, go ahead! (laughs) You’re clearly very well-read, being an english professor and knowing Shakespeare and everything, is there any particular work of literature or art or a book or a movie that influenced your perception of people? SOLJAN: Yeah, well all literature is about people, so there’s no doubt about that, even when you cannot project it and very often that (?) it’s always about people. And even if they have these horns, different (?) on their heads and what not, three heads and what not, they’re people, because human psyche is the same otherwise we wouldn’t understand. these creatures that are just a blob of energy, even they love or hate or something. but literature in general is just a—wonderful tool of understanding, learning and learning about your life and the life of those around you, but Hamlet is of course one of my favorites but there are so many others. The list is just huge. O’NEIL: This is just my personal curiosity, but you said you were on Air Force One? SOLJAN: No, I was invited to go there; I had to miss it, because I had separate problems here at Grand Valley at that time so I was really engaged deeply in resolving that first. But it was I got the White House invitation that said will you go with the President and work and be his interpreter over there, which is kind of a very, very wonderful I just said that after “How stupid of me. I should have done that, and remain in the White house! No, but, I’m here in Grand Valley. O’NEIL: Well I’m glad you stayed. (Laughs) Another little curiosity—how many languages do you speak? SOLJAN: Well, my native tongue is known as—its a Slav language like Polish or like Russian. It’s called Croatian. O’NEIL: Okay! SOLJAN: —l can tell you a little bit here, so you have that there for curiosity. . (Speaking in Croatian) “What would you like me to tell you? If you want I can tell you all sorts of things.” Thats what I said. Now, that’s Croatian. Then English—English of course—English is not my mother tongue, but I’m pretty Page 7 �fluent in English. And I speak Italian. Can read Spanish--I can pretty much atone with French. it’s pretty much a common thing with intellectuals in Europe. They speak— they’re small countries, so you need -it’s not like it is in America where you travel two days and you’re still in America. Ya, or three days even, if you go by car. Over there you can—there you can go through three or four countries and with different languages. That’s what I mean. KNOPER: Yeah I know, like my friend from—he’s in Czech Republic, and I mean all in Europe they like teach English. They have English along with their other stuff. SOLJAN: Oh I know. Absolutely. When I started, it was pretty new there at that time, because it was not so long after the second world war, but we started when I was like ten years old—and it was full eight years there. So after that—well even so some of them would never—, it just depends on how attentive you are, and you must pay attention or otherwise it doesn’t go into your head by itself. But yeah, that’s it. And then normally you just pick up a couple of others at least so much that you can make yourself understood and can read popular things and so on. O’NEIL: do we have most of our—at least all of— KNOPER: Yeah we pretty much got through everything. I mean we covered the views—we can talk about the past I guess, but — SOLJAN: I got something of my past; I never killed anyone—but I might! (All laughs) KNOPER: oh. (Laughs) Hopefully no one in this room! O’NEIL: Yeah! (Laughs) KNOPER: So like what about your—you mentioned you came over here at age forty-something— SOLJAN: Forty-three, yes. KNOPER: Forty-three. What kind of like—in your teens—what kind of things were you like going— were you interested in. Did you go to school at Grand Valley also? SOLJAN: No. You mean myself? KNOPER: Yeah, like in college and all that stuff. SOLJAN: Oh no! No, no. I got my education in Europe. So I completed my—I got my higher degrees in England. So I lived in England. And in a sense—and of course England is quite different from America, but America is much more unified so to speak—i mean McDonald’s everywhere Taco Bell everywhere, and four kinds of gasoline everywhere. But no I came here, as I say after being really rather thoroughly familiar with American way of life and American culture and American history, that’s another thing that I often find frustrating here when I ask my students about American history. O’NEIL: A bunch of blank stares— Page 8 �SOLJAN: Yeah. My usual joke is “Was it before Vietnam or after Vietnam?” Something that happened like three-hundred years ago. So as I say, the only psychological shock was the feeling that you lost your country, that you’ve lost all the things you’ve been building through through twenty-five, thirty years— and that you have to start from—even though we’ve been many places in the world, it’s kind of tough initially. You have to accommodate yourself and say well that’s it now so it’s being here. And we didn’t come, —typically people come to America for economic reasons. It’s kind of immigrants who--as they like to say here, dream their American dream or something—fulfilling their American dream. No it wasn’t our case, our case was to—as we couldn’t ret—I mean the war was just raging over there. We couldn’t go back. It was basically starting life somewhere you could start it. It wasn’t economic stuff. KNOPER: Was there ever—did you ever like think of going somewhere in Europe at that time? SOLJAN: Well, that was a possibility. We had some good friends, American diplomats. And before thinking of going here, he said there is a possibility you can actually—he worked as an American diplomat in Northern Germany; he said their American base is here—he said you can just kind of start from. But, I contacted Grand Valley, and they just said pack up and come here immediately —and that’s it. O’NEIL: Was the fact that Grand Valley offered you a position something that influenced you to become a professor— SOLJAN: Well no, as I said I was a professor for twenty years before that back home, so I’ve been teaching for forty years—more than forty years. I had this—I was primarily thinking, because I have a major in violin too and music—and I was thinking to myself as a music performer and violinist, at certain point there are these branching roads, and you have to choose, you cannot take both—and there was this good opportunity, and even someone from the university of Sarajevo told me, Why don’t you complete your graduate studies and join us?”, it’s a chance like so many things in life—you start—that’s one good thing with studies- -you said you were still undecided, it doesn’t matter. You can always change as I told you. My son completed English and Spanish and you could say that doesn’t really lead him to a producer in film industry, but that’s where he ended up and he’s extremely happy. that’s what he considers—you can learn all the time. That’s the point. And if you’re willing to learn the roads are open. KNOPER: Would you say Americans have more opportunity than maybe you had early in your life like college? Or is it just like now a days— SOLJAN: Yes and no. In the sense that even here—I don’t know we call something here complaints that not enough American youth go to—, many of them are dropouts even in high school, and many of them don’t complete their studies. So I’m wondering--there’s no doubt that the American facilities or the American universities—the huge difference between the American universities and European universities—generally speaking European universities- -that you pay here. It used to be—I don’t know whether it’s going to change under American influence, but in other words, universities here are business proposition. You pay—what you call that? KNOPER: Tuition. Page 9 �SOLJAN: Tuition, right. and it grows and grows and grows and without tuition the univeisities wouldn’t exist. And over there, in most countries it used to be free university—you wouldn’t have to pay. Now whether that’s good or not, I don’t know. I got very good education there, but I must say the high school also, I think, was much more concentrated on important things—that’s what I say the sense of history and geography is also something we immediately recognize and know about that. Now whether that’s the ultimate thing in your life, I don’t know it doesn’t have to be. There are differences, and again, I’m not someone who—back home I also had a very developed cultural life, intellectual life, so I had no problems, moving anywhere. For someone who actually came here—and I think that’s the majority of people who come from other countries—they usually move to America in order to make some money and to start a new life, economic life. And of course for them it’s difficult. Number one, the language barrier, number two all these customs they don’t really know and they have to get used to them. It’s difficult to say I never really systematically thought about that. (Pause) KNOPER: Anything else? SOLJAN: You fed up with me? O’NEIL: No, I could just ask you questions for hours, but in terms of the assignment I think we— SOLJAN: Good, wonderful. Well if you want to add something I haven’t said, please do. No problem. Only let it not be dangerous. The Italians have a nice saying, they say, “(speaking in Italian). If it is not true it’s well found.” KNOPER: Exactly! SOLJAN: Okay guys! Thank you very much. All the best. And have A’s. Four A’s! KNOPER: Hopefully. END OF INTERVIEW Page 10 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a68ce5b8a81d860dc370e1cab3e2318.mp3 b2b05271d1182746fb7b82022eff8eb3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Soljan_Ivo Title A name given to the resource Ivo Soljan audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Soljan, Ivo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Knoper, Logan Hall, Alyssa O'Neil, Tim Jackson, Tierra Description An account of the resource Ivo Soljan compares and contrasts the different countries that he has lived in. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/94599a5c1500f05223ff9ddca2dc4845.pdf c7a8e305c0b04edab163e0a90eca2014 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Colette Seguin Beighley Interviewers: John Deork, Kaylee Niemiec, Justin Vanportfliet and Leah Anderson. Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/16/2012 Biography and Description Colette Seguin Beighley was born in Oakland, California. She attended California State University, Haworth. She is a liscensed counsoler in California and Michigan. She discusses her activism with the Grand Valley State University LGBT Resource Center. Transcript VANPORTFLIET: Ok, why don’t we go around and say our names of the group first. I’m John Deork, Kaylee Niemiec, Justin Vanportfliet, and Leah Anderson. Ok so the date today is March 16th its 12 o’clock noon, at Grand Valley State University, in Allendale, in Michigan. were here today to talk about the subject of Civil rights here in West Michigan. Can you please state your name for the recorder? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Colette Seguin Beighley VANPORTFLIET: Thank you, Ok so where you born? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I was born in Oakland, California. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, and then so what was life like, Life growing up in California. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well let’s see, I was born in the projects, which people are usually surprised about. I think that when you’re in such a privileged spot like the university people always think that you come from that type of space, but I did not. I had the great opportunity of being in the bay area during a time in which there was so much civil rights work going on. It started with the free speech movement at Berkley, and then it went to the Civil rights movement, the women’s movement, Indians of all tribes, occupy Alcatraz, the gay rights movement, all that was happening in that space that I grew up in, so that was very influential. VANPORTFLIET: O yea I bet, so did you go to college? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes, Page 1 �VANPORTFLIET: Ok where did you go? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I went to California State University, Haworth. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, so what was life like there? Like what was the kind of atmosphere at the college because you already referenced some of the big civil rights movements going on there, so what kind of atmosphere like with a bunch of that kinda going on? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yea there was a lot happening in Central America, and there was a lot happening with apartheid in South Africa during that time, so a lot of that stuff was really on the radar, but that particular campus was not as much of an activist campus as Berkley was. but still we had education around those issues and they were on the radar. VANPORTFLIET: Did you have any personal involvement during your college years? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: In college? VANPORTFLIET: Yeah. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No not really, when I was in high school I was involved in a few things against nuclear power plants, but that was about it. VANPORTFLIET: Ok and after college, what was your life kinda like, just a quick background? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I got a masters degree in counseling and I am a licensed marriage and family therapist in both California and Michigan. So I had 25 years of private practice experience before I started this new chapter of my life, so that was very much what I did. I did a lot of advocating for youth in particular; I worked with beyond control youth, run away youth, homeless youth. And so I had some experience with that and those were all great experiences that lead me to this point. And I think that having a degree in counseling is really great preparation for doing student services work. VANPORTFLIET: Right, so you already referenced your daughter, who I know, but what is your family like? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: What is my family like? Hahaha well I have some great kids, I have 2 stepsons from my former marriage, and they both live in Grand Haven. One of them is married to my daughter in law of course, who is a very good friend of mine. The other one just got engaged, and then I have a biological son Ari who is currently living in Amherst, Massachusetts, and then my daughter Chloe who is a junior here and is just a Princess after three boys. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, so does anyone else have any questions before I keep going? NIEMIEC: I was just wondering, when you were growing up like with your family, what was your family like when you were a child, were you very religious, were your parents strict at all? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well let’s see, my mom had been married before so there were two siblings but they didn’t grow up with me they lived with their dad, so I was really an only child. I remember when we were living in the projects and it was really rough, what’s always below the surface is your safety. We Page 2 �moved out of there when I was eight years old, but that’s definitely that way that I learned to navigate the world. And I remember being really afraid, like terrified, you know a couple of bad things happened so that was kinda a rough way to enter the world. But my mom was super, super, super loving and supportive and my dad was fairly absent, alcoholic. That’s probably too much information hahaha. Then when I was eight we moved to a suburb of the east bay, Dublin. And it was, it went from a very diverse living situation to really an all white neighborhood. And I went to elementary, middle school, and high school in that environment. It was fine but you know as I really appreciate diversity, so I was kind of sad that I lost that but my family valued diversity and always looked at people who were different them ourselves as an opportunity to step back and learn more about the world. I think they did some things wrong, I can remember some things that were probably pretty offensive to especially African American people, but it was not, it was just out of their own ignorance. But we weren’t even talking about things like White privilege at the time so people would step all over their whiteness without even knowing it. But we had friends who were from the deaf community; we had friends that were from the gay and lesbian community. And every time my parent would prepare me for ‘were going to meet this family and this is what their like, you may have questions and we will talk about it afterwards’, really open in that way. And I was raised catholic, but I won’t say that it was a very religious family, my parents, because my mom was divorced before my mom could never really become catholic but they had this idea that, that is what they should raise me as. I went to church with a lot of different family, and did first communion and catechism and all that. It provides a sort of structure well your growing up so I appreciated that. VANPORTFLIET: So what kind of drew you to initially counseling, you said you graduated with a masters in family counseling, what initially drew you to that? Was it your diversity in your childhood? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No, no my family is very crazy hahaha and I just wanted to figure out, what the heck happened here? And how can I possibly go on and create a healthy family. And I cant do that unless I know, how do you do a healthy family and what the hell happened here? And that was really it, in fact I even went on to a year of my PHD program and then I sort of came to terms, actually trough my work there that I was kinda done. I just wanted to figure out a few things and I had figured it out. Now I wished I had finished hahaha just my desire to get into counseling was just to figure out the world, to get some of what I didn’t get growing up. A skill set to go out. VANPORTFLIET: So how long did you do the counseling? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: For about 25 years. VANPORTFLIET: Wow, so was that in California? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No I was in California for only about 3 years, the rest was in Michigan. VANPORTFLIET: So you moved to Michigan for your Job? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Nope, I moved to Michigan because my then husband’s family was from Michigan and we thought it would be a good environment to raise kids because the cousins were here. And it is a good place to raise kids, unless one of your kids turns out to be gay then maybe not so much, which we found out. Page 3 �VANPORTFLIET: So you said Ari, who is gay, who I know. He is actually a good friend, I am sad he moved away, but what was it like raising Ari or maybe you can broaden the spectrum a little bit like raising a gay or lesbian son in west Michigan? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Ari was really set apart from all the other kids because he was profoundly gifted. He got into a Johns Hoppkins program when he was in 8th grade that was reserved for students in the United States for students who scored the top half of one percent in the nation. So that was really a challenge, it was always a challenge for him. To keep him stimulated, to have his needs meet, to keep him grounded. And that always made him different, from any of the other kids, different in the way he related; but he was always different from the other kids. He was extremely demonstrative and that worked till he was about 6 then his male relatives wanted him to man up a bit. He never really did, he’s just who he is. And I didn’t raise him thinking that he was gay, I raised him thinking that he was a unique individual who didn’t really fit, kinda a square peg in a round hole. But I do remember when he was maybe 2 and a half. I was sitting on his bedroom floor he was playing, playing dress up and he dressed up and he was like spinning around and he was working it. And I remember thinking, ‘oh this kid might be gay, I wonder if I’m going to be returning to this conversation in 10 years or so’ and then I put it out of my head. Until he was about 13 or 14. By the time he was about 14, he was really questioning and I was really questioning him too. Then he eventually came out when he was 16. VANPORTFLIET: From your perspective, what was that like for him? You said he was always so different, always set apart what was that like for him, like at school? Because at 16 that is such a rough time for everyone, having that kind of revelation and kind of life change. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I think it was incredible rough, he was not getting along with his sister, and his sister is his best friend in the whole world! He was just irascible and when he did come out, we ended up doing this retreat together as a family. Six of us got on a plane and went to Santé Fe and did this. The experience coming out powerfully, and at this retreat like all retreats, you have to write a letter. And then they make you read the letter. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: It lame but whatever. He read the letter and he read it to his dad and I. And he said, you know, mom and dad you are such good parents. And I’m thinking, okay there’s something; let’s cut to the chase here. . And then he said but there’s something I have to tell you. And then it was so tremendous moment. My adrenaline just shot to my head. And I remember just going through the rolodex like in split seconds of how did I screw up? How did I not protect him from getting hurt? And then he talked about how when he was in middle school, he had been……well a few boys had thought he was gay. And they targeted him. And they would wait for him in the stairwell of the school and beat him up every day. But they wouldn’t beat him on his face or on his arms, only on the lower body. But they would beat him until the point that he would vomit blood. And I hyperventilated when he said that. I never hyperventilated in my life, but it was just so awful. It was so awful to know that he had been going through that and we had no idea. And you know, two therapists as parents you’d think we would have a clue, but we didn’t have any idea. So I just felt so awful that he had to go through that alone. And it Page 4 �really it explained so much about how he was irascible during those years and just so difficult to live with. and also how he was so much freer and comfortable with himself after he came out. VANPORTFLIET: Right. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah. VANPORTFLIET: Do you guys have anything questions? (Looking at group) DEORK: Have you always had a good relationship with him? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes. Not that I don’t drive him crazy. I do of course. But yes. (Laughter) ANDERSON: Do you think that has helped him in this experience with this? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: . I don’t know. I would think so but I’m the last person to…you should talk to him. Call him up. (Laughter) SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: ask him what he thinks. I’m sure at times it’s been annoying as how to have a mom that is so out there. You know. (Laughter) SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: It’s like, can you please tone it down a bit? You know. But he’s never said that. He’s always a big cheerleader too, so. VANPORTFLIET: . So, what is your title here at the college? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I am director of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender resource center. LGBT resource center. VANPORTFLIET: Right. and then kind of take us through like what is your job description. Like, what kind of things do you do as the director of the LGBT center? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Okay well, let me tell you about the LGBT resource center then ill break it down. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah of course. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: So, our mission is to empower students to lead …if I didn’t have a cold. (Laughter) (Pause) Okay, to empower students to lead authentic lives to challenge gender and sexuality stereotypes and to work for social justice. So, we look to our center as serving 25,000 members of the community, not just the LGBTQ community. Because all of our students live in a world with gross inequality and part of their education needs to be coming to terms with their place in that world. Understanding what’s happening Page 5 �with marginalized communities. And then what, how does that fit with their lives and with what they are going to do. so we, we serve the entire student body and then specifically we serve LGBTQ students. So we have our Freshmen Queer Alliance which is for first year students and it really is to operate a safety net for them. A place to connect, many students don’t come out until they get to college when they can finally separate from their families of origin and trying a new identity. it’s a social group but we also take them on bus trips so that they can learn the bus system and go downtown a bit, and learn where the food places are on campus, and where resources are if they need help with writing or something like that. and then they do fun things like bowling and watch movies and that sort of things. So our Freshmen Queer Alliance is really to just give them a place to be here on campus. And then we also have our Pipeline Leadership Group which is for second year students and above. And that’s a yearlong leadership program that really focuses on advocacy and activism. And it is also open to our allies as well. This year we have our first ally student in the leadership group and it really has been a lot of fun. And then we have our LGBT ambassadors. And they help us out in many ways; whether it is at a social event, our ice cream social at the beginning of the year. They come in their rainbow, GVSU shirts. And look for those students who may be sitting alone or may be trying to find out, find a way to get connected. And they also go into classrooms and do presentations. For our allies and advocate training they tell their stories of coming out, and just wherever we need help our LGBT ambassadors are right there. We also have our monthly on-going LGBT conference, which looks at LGBT and leadership, gender, culture, race, spirituality, and one other thing. (Laughter) And that’s a monthly event that’s LIB100 approved and US201 approved. That really introduces LGBT issues and ideas on campus. We have our lavender graduation; this will be our sixth year. For lavender graduation, it is actually older than the center. This is the fourth year for the center. And it is a time to celebrate the scholastic achievements of our LBGT and ally students. And it is a lot of fun. It’s a big deal. So, we really, really put a lot of effort into lavender graduation. We also have open door discussions where students can come up with their own topic and do their own program in the center. And that is really fascinating to see what kind of things students come up with. We just had one on gay stereotypes. and what else do we do? Oh we have our change and training for social justice, which is semester long program that’s grant funded. And it looks at systems, intersecting systems, of oppression, racism sexism, homophobia, and how they are interdependent and need one another to survive. And we have a 1.0 and a 2.0. And so our students learn the framework in the 1.0 and then they really dig into strategies and tactics for activism in the second one. So, that’s really a very dynamic program. So just to give you, and then our allies and advocate training we do that for the Greek community and then we do it for the general community as well. So I’m not sure if I hit all of our programs but that the smorgasbord of what we do. VANPORTFLIET: That is a lot of involvement. ANDERSON: Yeah, that’s a lot. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes. So then my role is to work with the students to develop that program that meets their needs. To really help cast a vision for the center. And to be involved in the greater LGBT Page 6 �community, to keep us tied to current events. So I’m on the board of our state wide Antiviolence and Advocacy Organization Equality Michigan. And I work with the national consourcion of LGBT resource professionals in higher education. And I go to the national gay and lesbian test force conference on creating change every year. And I present at conferences on specifically of expanding the circle which is LGBTQ’s studies and services in higher education. So it’s the only conference that’s really devoted specifically to the issues that we serve. And I’m presenting at two workshops this summer at that conference. So all of that helps me to have a broad sense of the movement. And being able to connect our students to what’s happening in the community and understand nationally. I just like the first week I was here when I was assistant director, I remember a student getting fired. And I remember him saying, “You can’t fire me. I have my rights.” That’s what he said, he was going to say it to the person who fired him. And no you can be fired for being gay in Michigan. There are no protections; there are absolutely no protections in Michigan. Sexual orientation and gender identity is not included in Elliot Larson’s Civil Rights Act. It’s not included in our hate crimes on law. We don’t have second parent adoption. We just recently, after ten years of work, finally passed an anti-bullying bill. But it’s completely toothless and ineffective. There were only two states in the nation left who hadn’t passed an anti-bullying bill and Michigan was one of them. We did it because we were ashamed into it, but it is completely not powerful. And then, our constitution rewritten inequality into our constitution by saying that marriage is between one man and one woman. So it’s rough here. And our students need to understand, yet I don’t want to paint a black picture of their future for them. But I really want to help them to build allies and collisions to go out and change the inequity that excess; not only for the LGBT community, but the immigrant community as a target. A huge islamophobia around the country now. So, all those issues are important and they all impact LGBT lives as well, because our community goes throughout. We have Muslim LGBT people; we have LGBT people who are immigrants. So all those issues are our issues as well. So back to being director. I do all those things and help the programming move forward, to cast division for the center, to keep connected with local state and national movement s. And then also to work within the university to move us forward in being more equitable. In the summer of 2008, we added gender identity and expression to our antidiscrimination policy. But yet, four years later, we do not have policies in place for a staff or faculty member who is looking to transition. So if somebody is identifying as transgender and wants to start transitioning, they want to see a policy in place. They don’t want to have to go into human resources and be the first person to do that. So the vice president of inclusion and equity, Gene Arnold, has formed the Gender Identity and Expression Committee. And I serve on that committee. And we are looking at policies throughout the university, whether it’s developing gender neutral locker room space. Creating health, or adding healthcare coverage that is trans inclusive. Working with banner, we’re going to be an experimental university to work with banner so that they can, students, can choose a preferred name, and not, if somebody is transitioning and they are going by Jane, but their banner says John and their professor outs them in class it’s public safety issue to them. You know? And it’s also so difficult for them to go to every single professor before class begins and tell the story and see if they can get you know they can get by in, and most of the time the professors want to do the right thing but certainly there have been professors who have refused to call them by their preferred name. So then when that happens we get involved, and also I’m on the university’s team against bias, so I’ve worked with bias incidents on campus along with other members of the team, so working with policy and our campus climate is really an important piece of the work we Page 7 �do cause we want all students to feel safe and we want to retain our students once they come here, all students, not just LGBT students but all students. That’s a very long answer. VANPORTFLIET: Aw, that’s okay. so how do you feel that Grand Valley is compared to other schools maybe in Michigan, cause it’s here in West Michigan thats traditionally very religious a religious part of the state, very conservative, so but my opinion I feel like with this center we’re making good steps toward being very proactive, but what’s your opinion? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I think compared to other public universities we’re doing really well. We have a 4.5 out of 5 star rating on the campus LGBT friendly campus climate index, and that’s the highest any school has. At one point the University of Michigan had a 5, but they have moved down to a 4.5 because they have raised the bar a bit to meet the needs of transgender students – VANPORTFLIET: Mmhm SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: More thoroughly, and lets see there are 4 universities, one, two, three, four, five, lets see, maybe not, theres University of Michigan, MSU, Eastern, Tech, Grand Valley, all have 4.5 ratings, so we feel good about that but University of Michigan had the first LGBT resource center in the country but it was four decades before we got ours at Grand Valley. And that said only 7% of campuses in the United States have LGBT resource centers. So we are still ahead of the curve there. And with our implementation of gender neutral housing this past fall we’ve moved even further ahead because I think that after the loss of Tyler Clementi at Rutgers last fall, universities are understanding that they need to listen to the housing needs of their LGBT students more closely. And right after that tragedy Rutgers implemented gender neutral housing. So other universities want to be pro-active so that they are not responding to a negative event, but really doing you know, being ahead of that. so I think that Grand Valley has a long way to go, there are lots of ways we do not meet the needs of our LGBTQ students, faculty, and staff. But we have also come a long way, and we have a tremendous amount of support here, so, I give us high marks. VANPORTFLIET: So, what is, what is maybe the biggest thing here at Grand Valley that we could do to improve, like the, whats the next step that would be like huge in your opinion? For the LGBT center or for the women’s center anything like that? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: So like a wish list? VANPORTFLIET: Yeah! SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well a big wish list would be if I could wish away, I would say that I wish we would have a social justice center and our other centers were under it, including disabilities support services which is not under the brella right now, there, in a different unit, but, the purpose of the social justice center would be to not look at just one ‘ism’,not just look at racism, but look at sexism and to see, to educate our students about the dependency of these dynamics on one another to move forward. And also to, we have students who are mostly white and mostly come from at least a middle class background, so they come with lots of privilege and I would really love to educate the entire student body about that privilege so that they can look at other people more realistically. And also understand Page 8 �that with privilege comes responsibility. so that would be my big view. But then specifically for our center, bigger budget, more staff, *laughing* that’s my Christmas wish list. so that we could do all the things that we want to do. VANPORTFLIET: okay, so we talked about proposition 8 in our class, so how, it was passed and then overturned, and brought back, so how do you think Michigan did on that, I think, I think you already touched on, it just wasn’t there, it kinda dropped the ball, and what do you think, can happen to kind of help push that along, you know? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Mmhm, Well marriage equality certainly is, at the top of the list of items that the LGBT, what we call Gay Inc. which is the human rights campaign, and the national gay and lesbian task force what they are moving forward, and I have some problems with that, so I’ll say that and then I’ll go back to it, but as far as marriage, yes, Michigan was an epic fail. It passed, we passed a constitutional amendment to ban marriage equality in our state. I’m happy to say I didn’t vote for it even before I was so out. and I think there are over 30 states that have those kinds of constitutional amendments, but we are seeing state by state, it’s flipping, so that’s helpful. There are 8 states and the District Colombia right now that marriage equality, I just can’t wait for 2 more flip and I can say 20% of the states in the nation have marriage equality, so, and that doesn’t count states that allow civil unions, so and let me just clarify that that’s still separate but not equal because even our own household member benefits on our university, our unmarried partners get the same health coverage, but they don’t pay the same for it, because they have to pay for their coverage with post-tax dollars. Where as married couples pay with pre-tax dollars so they actually end up spending about 25% less if you’re married. So if Michigan were to flip marriage equality it would still be inequitable for gay and lesbian couples because at the federal level we have the defensive marriage act, which Obama currently is not enforcing, but it’s, thats a federal mandate, it’s not something that Grand Valley can control at all. The 1,138 benefits that come with marriage still do not, are not enjoyed by the LGBTQ community. Even in states where marriage equality has passed. VANPORTFLIET: Do you think that, that marriage equality, is like the nber one thing that we should be pushing for, like or, theres another issue we kind of touched on in class, with gays being able to adopt and having that two parent adoption, and that was, especially powerful for me because one of my friends has two lesbian Moms, and so I’m kinda close to that and we watched a video on it and the person who was kind of thrown into that situation, was totally against it and was very close-minded I thought. and they, they even showed her with different situations with kids and adoption centers and rundown with really no place to go and then they showed this happy family with two dads, and she was still like no, that’s not right. And so I was just wondering which is that the nber one, er like what’s the nber one thing that if you again had like a wish, that you would pass. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well, I mean realistically, as we did strategic planning for the state wide organization we did focus groups all around the state to see what constitutions wanted and they all wanted marriage equality. But that can’t be the first thing that you go for, especially in this state so getting the antibullying bill passed had to be the first thing, so we got that passed, and it was not as we liked it but, but we got it passed. and part of the reason that it did pass was because it served Michigan well not to be the leftover state that is not passing it. So, right now we’re working on our Elliot Larson civil rights act to Page 9 �see if we can expand that. And that will give immediate relief to families, and that will directly translate to the lived experience of LGBT people to have protections and housing and on the job. And for straight people as well because you can be fired for being perceived as being gay, right. So, so working on that so as far as second parent adoption will probably be next after that, because those are some of the things that people can relate to, research shows that the happiest healthiest kids grow up with two Moms. You know, what can you say, you have two Moms your doing pretty well, and research backs it up, so I think that on the road to marriage equality there are these other markers that can really impact quality of life for LGBT people are also more obtainable and that’s how we are working it in the state. Justin to group: Okay, and questions? NIEMIEC: Not really, it was more focused on like your son but I mean, we were talking about something different. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well, I am happy to go back to that. Do you have anything in particular. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah, go ahead and ask it! NIEMIEC: Okay I was just wondering when you said that he was bullied in school and like when he came out to you, did you feel you guys got closer or did he like kind of back away, or like went kind of went on with that, did your relationship grow? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah, I really feel, I don’t feel like we got closer, because he’s also you know 16 years old and a guy and was needing to be like separating from his Mom a bit too. I think we’ve always been close certainly he became closer with his sister and his sister-in-law who’s like a sister to him, yeah, but it didn’t impact our relationship negatively in any way. NIEMIEC: Okay, and like did your other, like your parents or like any other family members, did, how did they react, or did they see it all along, like, like how you did, did they see the signs, or, you know? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: That was a disaster... NIEMIEC: It was? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well my Mom had passed away a few years earlier, which was for me sort of a cosmic crisis like, like why isn’t she here? Because she would have just not missed a beat and she and Ari were just like this. but on the paternal side that family is very, very, very religious and so that’s their lens of seeing the world and they did not have any space for Ari being gay…Period. So, it was a difficult time. We actually wrote them a letter so that they could sort of process, not in the moment with us, but just sort of like reorganize and then come to us and have a conversation, and try to like do damage control a bit. And, we said we know you have this way of understanding it, but there is other information too, we really want to go on this journey with you duh-duh-duh-duh-dah. And I thought for sure that you know I was keeping the living room clean thinking that they were gonna be showing up to have the conversation. 8 months of silence. And then at the end of 8 months, Ari’s grandpa sent a letter that was so scathing. Saying that Ari’s being gay was the biggest disappointment of his entire life. And he copied everyone in the family. And so that just gave, opened the flood gates for the other people to Page 10 �send their own letters, and I got 7 page, single spaced, margin-less typed letters from the family saying that we had turned our children over to Satan, and that, you know all of this really extreme, extreme stuff. So, its pretty hard to heal from that. You know, it’s pretty hard to move forward from that. I feel like, and this is a mom genetic coding thing, I feel like I can never get passed that. That that was so hurtful and so unnecessary. That I just really can’t get passed that. But Ari is more generous, and he has a relationship with those family members now. you know he could not bring his partner to their house but I think some of them have even started asking him if he has a boyfriend. I know that his grandma has started asking him. His grandfather never will. So, you know it has been, 7 years now, so. VANPORTFLIET: It’s a work in progress… SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah. NIEMIEC: Is there still tension between you and the… SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I am divorced now (laughter). But you know between my in-laws, no. (She paused) I know that they still love Ari. And I know that in their worldview they were doing the best they can. I still think that it was unnecessary and hearts that will never heal so I just have a really hard time understanding why someone would put that thing in writing and then send it to everybody else. But I know also that they feel the same way about the work that I have done. That my being public about Ari’s coming out has injured them in the same ways. That they have felt like I have publicly shamed the family in doing that. So it depends on which lens you work through. There were times when I felt like I was losing my mind, that I would actually drive to Detroit to Triangle Foundation which was a State-wide organization at the time now it’s Equality Michigan. And just say, I know I am doing the right thing, but I’ve got nothing here. I’ve got no support. I just need to hear that I’m doing the right thing. Supporting my son, you know, how crazy is that. But yeah, I think I’m hopeful that the cousins, some of the cousins, some of the cousins that my children will be able to have relationships with them. Some of them they won’t I know because they also are really pulling this hard line. VANPORTFLIET: What do you think the big problem is between the religious community, and the LGBT center? Because, I am religious but I don’t see it so cut and dry as some other like obviously some of those people who wrote those letters. I don’t believe that at all. So what do you think? Do you think that they are exclusive? Like in some parts or like I believe that they don’t have to be, but what’s kinda your take on that. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I left out the part where my ex-husband was a minister and he lost his minister license because he supported Ari. But you know, I have spent a lot of time thinking about it. And I think that people build their self-esteem based on their religious beliefs that for a lot of people it’s a journey, like I said my journey out of a difficult situation was really education. To try to figure out, oh my, gosh, how does this work? But for some people its finding religion and building a whole identity around that. And that’s how they are okay in the world. So when you start to mess with that, it becomes a situation where there’s a lot at stake. And if you pull this brick out of the wall, that’s a big brick. Because if they are feeling that homosexuality is a sin, which is their bi-line you know. Then if you pull that brick out of the wall and they change that, what else do they have to question? That’s a lot of work and that’s scary. Page 11 �So I came to understand, this is my way that I made sense of it, is that Ari’s coming out, and then my being so vocal about inequality, created a lot on anxiety in people especially in who held these fundamental beliefs. And they wanted me to not make them anxious. And if I did not stop making them anxious, then there was a consequence to that. So I understand the anxiety and the organization of a personality. In that kind of way where there’s just a lot at stake, in their being okay. And I’m sure other people see it differently and disagree with me on that. VANPORTFLIET: Well we are almost done with the hour so is there one thing you wanna leave with, it could be about the LGBT community or something you think is a big problem that we still need to overcome, maybe something we haven’t touched on yet? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I talked about how I would love for all students to be able to have a chance to examine their own privilege and to be able to come to terms with that. So that they could understand how they could leverage that in the future to create change. And so, and that just reminds me of this quote by Anias Nin and it says, we see the world not as it is, but as we are. We see people not as they are but as we are. I think I probably just butchered that but the point being that we, unless we do work to make it explicit, we only see through our own lens. And it takes some discomfort and some really being intentional to be able to see things from a point of view from a marginalized community. Or from the very complex identities that some of our students carry, like being black, disabled, and lesbian. Being able to see through that lens. And I would hope that we would focus on giving students an opportunity to challenge themselves in that way. VANPORTFLIET: Well thank you very much. I know for me it’s been very enlightening and it’s been very nice to talk to you. END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a049e8e9144046e155a8d3276b6dc17e.mp3 bfa891d04f60aacf97e21248be6169d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Seguin-Beighley_Colette Title A name given to the resource Colette Seguin Beighley audio interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seguin Beighley, Colette Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Deork, John Niemiec, Kaylee Vanportfliet, Justin Anderson, Leah Description An account of the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley was born in Oakland, California. She attended California State University, Haworth. She is a liscensed counsoler in California and Michigan. She discusses her activism with the Grand Valley State University LGBT Resource Center. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/94d79f02423858a8258b19408d9aa3a0.pdf 7da630bdf7af9b47c15fb2e7ae3c1f3b PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Debra Sawinski Interviewers: Brian Schreur, Laura Sawinski, Marcus Bell and Robin Moening Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/28/2011 Biography and Description Debra Sawinski discusses how she started the first all girls track team at her high school and the struggles that came along with in. Transcript LAURA: Oral history project. We are here on November 28, 2011. I am Laura Sawinski and I am here with Debra Bussing Sawinski to talk about her involvement in the formation of the track team at Fruitport High School in Fruitport, Michigan. First I need you to sign our consent form. This states that you agree to participate in the interview and that you agree to have your name published and if not you can state that now. DEBRA: I agree. LAURA: It also says that you understand the interview will take approximately 2 hours and that you can withdrawal from the project whenever you feel necessary without any prejudice. You also agree that upon completion of the interview the recording and consent of that recorded belongs to Grand Valley State University. You understand that any restrictions to use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. You understand that upon completion of this interview and signing this release the recordings, photographs and one copy of the transcript will be kept in Grand Valley State University library special collections in Allendale, Michigan. So here you can wish to remain anonymous or to be identified by name. DEBRA: Identified by name. My initials? LAURA: Yes. To start this interview and to find out your experiences with starting the track team and how you got to that point.. .11 you could tell us about your childhood, what it was like growing up, and just the background of you as a child. DEBRA: Well I grew up in the country and our neighborhood was kind of unique. My grandfather had owned all the land and he divided it up so all ofmy neighbors were also related, my aunts and uncles, cousins and I.. .wejust did everything together and maybe that’s where I got.. .to the point where I liked running because we had to run in between each other’s houses all the time to- - because we had no Page 1 �tel—in our house we had no telephone so in order to use the telephone we ran to somebody else’s house. LAURA: And explain your family, how many siblings you had or what it was like growing up being so close to your family or extended family. DEBRA: I have four sisters, two of them are older two of them are younger. Probably the two older ones we did more things together because we’re closer in age. And I. ..being that close to our relatives we had a shared feel that we did a lot of different things, activities. It was just a good neighborhood. Everybody watched out for everybody else and we did lots of things together, we-- that’s who we played with, had baseball fields set up, did all kinds of things together. So it was a really—just a really neat experience growing up. LAURA: And how long did you guys live in the same proximity was it until you graduated high school or did some move along the way? DEBRA: Well some ofmy older cousins moved away but we all basically lived here and all of us went to the same high school and graduated from the same high school. LAURA: And where did you attend school throughout your whole year, where did you start with your first year until the year you graduated? DEBRA: Went to Fruitport Elementary, Fruitport Middle School, and Fruitport High School. LAURA: And what was your experience in general? Did you like school, did you enjoy going and what part did you enjoy the most? DEBRA: For the most part I liked school; it was a good experience all the way through. Of course there are parts that you don’t like more than others.. .let’s see. I didn’t like Spanish very well but I did really well in social studies. I took every history class, every geography class that there was available so, I liked English classes. I have—I was accepted into honors lit which was a really fun class and had a really good time with that and... For the most part I did very well in school and liked it. LAURA: What kind of treatment did you receive during your school years? Did you feel that you were treated fairly well or were some kids treated better than others? Or with you being a female did that ever effect how you were treated or did you feel like it was pretty equal across the board? DEBRA: I think some kids were treated better than others, just their personalities or whatever it may have been. I know that I had to ride the bus and I know even our bus driver had her favorites and— LAURA: Were you one of them? DEBRA: No. I was not. Usually it was the boys that were a favorite, only certain ones. And. . .but for the most part I feel I was treated fairly. I don’t remember ever being.. .not.. .because I was a girl not being treated fairly. I think that across the board it was pretty equal. Page 2 �LAURA: And what year were you when you decided or thought that you would want to start a girl’s track team? DEBRA: Senior year of high school. LAURA: And why did you decide that you wanted to start that track team even though in Fruitport there hadn’t been a girl’s track team? DEBRA: There were about four of us seniors who all liked some portion of track whether it was running or shot-put or whatever it may have been. We all liked that part. In gym class we did very well in those areas. And when we were seniors, and especially one of the girls was--had a boyfriend who was on the guy’s track team and we thought it would be fun to have a girl’s track team and a good experience for us. LAURA: Do you have a main motivation for starting the team or just was it something you guys enjoyed and thought why not? DEBRA: We thought it was time that the girls had a track team. Other schools had girl’s track teams and Fruitport had never had one. So we thought it was time that they had one and if we were going to have anything to do with it we had to do it quickly because we were all seniors and.. .so we just started to move forward in that just kind of talking about it among ourselves and then figuring out what to do to get one going. LAURA: So is there a reason why you waited until you were a senior to start the formation of n a track team? DEBRA: I think we just didn’t, we didn’t think that we could do it, that most the sports werem started by either a faculty member or the need to have it and I don’t think that any of us thought that we would— could or would be able to do what we did in starting the team. LAURA: Who was the most influential you think in helping you start the team. Like you said there was faculty that normally had started it was there a faculty member that had helped you? Or anyone in particular? Or did you feel like you as a collective group kind of had to head it up and convince others that you guys needed a track team? DEBRA: I think that there were the four of us and we went to the athletic director at that time was Dale Levondowski and he told us that there was no way that we were going to have a girl’s track team that year. So at that point we went to the guys coach, the boy’s track team coach, and we asked him ifwe could run with the boy’s team and he said yes. LAURA: Were there other girls sports at that time or what options did girls have? DEBRA: There were I believe girls softball, and cheerleading, and I. . . girls basketballLAURA: So why— DEBRA: Oh swimming and gymnastics. Page 3 �LAURA: So why did the athletic director say no way to a track team for girls? DEBRA: First of all he said that we wouldn’t be able to get a coach, we didn’t have the schedule set up, there was no money for uniforms, there.. . it would be a problem with bus transportation. He gave us all the--all the things that involved mostly I believe it was money. That all the things were rooted in that, beside the fact that. . .1 think it would have been more work for him and he just didn’t feel like that-that he didn’t want to do that at that time. LAURA: So with the guys track coach was his idea that yea just come run with us or was he influential or did he try to help you form a team of your own or did he just figure you can just join us? DEBRA: Well he said that if we couldn’t have a team of our own that we could run with the guys and because it was a non-contact sport that would have been allowed. LAURA: So when you went to high school you couldn’t play, like a girl couldn’t play football? DEBRA: No. LAURA: Or wrestling? DEBRA: No, because it was a—it could only be a non-contact sport. And so he said we could run at— come and run with the guys and—and he didn’t cut us any slack for being girls. LAURA: Should he have? DEBRA: No, but I mean we—we had started out a little later with practice than the guys, and I just remember our first—our first practice with the guys it was a five and a half mile run, and some of us made it. So—and it was really interesting because the coach, the coaches, there were two of them, Mike Thompson was the head coach, they drove the car and followed us, we ran on the roads in Fruitport. No, he was, I believe the guys coaches were very, very supportive of us having a girls team. Thought we deserved one, should have one, and that’s why they said that they would go along with us joining the team and supporting us in any way that they could so that we would be able to get a team eventually if it wasn’t that year then hopefully the next year. LAURA: And so you were allowed to practice with them. Were you allowed to run in meets with them, or did you get a team before the meets occurred? DEBRA: We ran with them in practice and worked with them and—and I have to say all the guys were very supportive of us and gave us helpful hints and different things. They were still telling us that we could not have a girl’s track team. So this meet came up, it was an invitational, actually it was held at Grand Valley, the indoor track, and we rode with the guys on the bus and we got to the—the track and there happened to be a few other schools that had girls track teams that came too. And I remember that we had to wait outside the locker rooms until the boys were all done in the locker rooms before they’d let us go in and get changed for the meet. And then we ran in the meet with the guys. They did have separate heats for the girls but we were able to run in the meet and it was after that, that the Page 4 �administration of the school and especially Mr. Levondowski, figured that we were serious about having a girls track team. LAURA: So at that invitational how many guys would you say were there? DEBRA: Overall.., all the schools? LAURA: Yes. DEBRA: Hundreds.. .hundreds. LAURA: And how many girls? DEBRA: Oh less than a hundred, maybe fifty. Of all the teams together because we went into one locker room but there were hun—there were multiple schools and so there were hundreds of boys there to run. LAURA: And at that particular invitational did you feel like there was one school who had way more girls than others or was it kind of a few on each team? DEBRA: There were a couple of schools that fielded a whole team just about for girls. A few others had a pretty good amount. Our school we probably at that one, we—there were, at that point probably five or six from Fruitport that went. LAURA: So as you guys came up with this idea, how did you, the group of you so there was five of you? DEBRA: There was four of us that started out. LAURA: Four of you. Were you friends prior or how did you kind of come together to say hey wouldn’t it be cool to have a track team? DEBRA: We were all friends and we were in this one class together and we sat together—we had to go the library a lot and we ended up always at the same table and talking amongst ourselves I think that that’s really where the formation really started to take place just because we were talking hey we would like to be able to do the—we would like to be able to run and to have a team. LAURA: With the administration did the athletic director ever say hey we have a few sports for girls can’t you just join one of them? Why do you have to make your own team? DEBRA: No. I don’t remember him ever saying that and we found out later that actually there was an equal rights amendment or something along that line that legally they couldn’t tell us no you can’t have—we won’t give you a team but it was the consensus that they would do everything for us not to have a team. Telling us there was no money, there was nothing but ifwe would have taken it to court and even though we didn’t know about it we didn’t know that there was that—that equal rights thing. We had no idea at that time because it had just passed and now of course they even have more rights, the girls do to play sports. Back then it was something new and I think they used the fact of the financial part of it to—to stop us from having a team. Page 5 �LAURA: And do you think for him or others who opposed you that was the main thing? Not that they thought girls shouldn’t or couldn’t run but just the money? DEBRA: I think money was the main thing and then trying to put it all together in a short amount of time would have been—was more work. LAURA: And how long did you have? What was your time frame? Just your senior year? DEBRA: Yes. We—well we started early spring asking for a team and of course it’s a spring sport so had to be done fast. LAURA: So what was your first step in forming the team? Was your first step going to the athletic director? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: And did you have anything prepared for him or did you just go in there with these ideas you had talked about? DEBRA: I think we just went in with our ideas and asking ifwe could get a team. LAURA: And his first response was? DEBRA: No way. It wasn’t going to happen this year. And that’s when we said—actually the words were used ok we’ll run with the guys. LAURA: And what did he say? DEBRA: He goes—he shook his shoulders and said ok. But I don’t think that he thought that we were going to stick it out and I think that that’s—he wasn’t going to go to all the work when he didn’t think that we would—we would stick it out for the season. LAURA: So he didn’t feel like you were actually committed to this. DEBRA: Yea. LAURA: So how did you feel when you couldn’t have a team when he told you no and you had to run with the guys? Did that anger you or were you like well, we’ll just do this for now? Or did that motivate you more? DEBRA: Yes. We were more determined than ever to prove that we were going to run with the guys and that we were going to make it work, that Fruitport was going to have a girl’s track team. And at that point I think that’s when we enlisted more girls we had a. . . like a little petition so to speak ofhow many—we went up and asked girls if they would like to run, if there was a team would they be interested in running and we did that. LAURA: Was there a number that you had to get to form a team? Page 6 �DEBRA: No, but the more we had the better because there were a lot of events and that we knew that ten of us it would be hard to have a team and be able to even have enough people for the events so we knew we had to get more than that. LAURA: So at your first meet how many did you have? DEBRA: The invitational when we went to Grand Valley? Or at the first— LAURA: When you had a girl’s team. DEBRA: We probably had, well I want to say around twenty. We ended up for the season having 22 all together that stuck it out. We doubled up and made sure that we had somebody in every event. LAURA: So you were able to cover every event? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: When you first started running with the guys were any of the girls better than the guys? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: Any how did the guys feel about that? DEBRA: They ma—they would tease us. Saying that we were fast or whatever and back then that, that meant that you weren’t always a nice girl but they, they, though they were really good. They really pushed us and wanted us to excel and so I don’t think any of them were very.. .oh down us or anything and if we beat them they thought that was pretty good. LAURA: So you ran in the invitational at Grand Valley with the guys but in separate heats. Were there any other meets that you ran with the guys? Were you ever combined like for relays or were they always separate even though you were at the same meet? DEBRA: It was always separate. We never run a combined guy run one leg and a girl we never did that, no they were completely separate. LAURA: How did you do that with only five girls then? DEBRA: Because by the time the first meet, dual meet, came we—we had a team. LAURA: But at Grand Valley you just ran...? DEBRA: We ran what we could. There was a—a relay team and then a couple of other events that we were able to run in. LAURA: So you just weren’t able to run in everything? DEBRA: Right. Page 7 �LAURA: And how would you say your support from your family was kind of from the beginning of the first formation of the idea and then when the team actually formed and after that. What would you say the progression of support from your family and other friends who weren’t on the track team? DEBRA: I would say our support from our friends was good and they came out to cheer us on. Me personally I did not have much support from my family. I had to go to someone else—actually to get to a practice a lot of times if the practice wasn’t right after school if it was a day when school wasn’t on because we did often have Saturday practices, I would have to run to my friends house that lived on the next road over and hitch a ride with her into school with her because I wasn’t able to use my parents car. The only one from my family who ever saw me run in the—in track was my youngest—younger sister Penny. Neither my mom nor my dad ever saw me run. My mom wasn’t very supportive of it at all. She thought it was foolish and didn’t know why a girl would want to run track. My dad was a little bit better about it. He—he worked at night so he couldn’t come to the meets because he had, was either at work or going to sleep. But he did ask me about it and so each time we had a meet I would tell him about my race and how well I did and that and but as far as the rest of it—my one older sister Denise probably would have done very well if there had been a track team when she was in school because she could always beat me no matter how much I practiced or anything in track, she was, she was very very good and would have done well and I always have wished there had been a team for her because I think that that would have been a very neat thing for her so other than that I don’t—a lot ofmy other friends especially Barb Vennema who was one of the main ones in starting the team, her—her mom was really supportive of us and she was at most of the meets and really encouraged us on, and like I said a lot ofmy friends were really supportive of it. LAURA: And you said that your mom wasn’t necessarily supportive or thought it was foolish. Can you describe kind of her thoughts on a girl and what her role should be? DEBRA: We should go to school and do the work that we need to do and come home and do the chores that she gave us to do. And I still had to all ofmy work at home after I got done with practice whether— and part of that was cleaning up the supper work or whatever even if I hadn’t eaten even if I had missed the meal. It was my job to do the dishes and clean up the supper table and that’s what I had to do no matter if I had just come from a meet and were later or whatever it was. I just had to get all ofmy work done and—and that’s how it was. I mean she just didn’t— she just thought it was all foolishness and couldn’t understand why anyone would want to run around a track. So, she—she did not grow up with the idea that girls should be involved in sports or any of that so she just couldn’t figure out why one of her daughters would want to be interested in that. LAURA: Did your older sisters play any sports? DEBRA: No. LAURA: So you were the first to be in a sport? DEBRA: Yes. I was rebellious. Page 8 �LAURA: Airight. And do you feel like your dad would have possibly gone to more if he wasn’t working at night? Or do you think that he kind of distanced himself as well thinking that it’s not necessary? DEBRA: No, I think he would have come because he always asked me about them and always had me run through—it was like running my race for the second time and telling him how we did and all ofthat. He made sure that he always asked me and I felt that he would have come if he would have been able to. My one sister did play the clarinet in the band and he always went to her concerts when he could, so I knew that he would have come if he would have been able to. LAURA: And what did your dad do for a job? DEBRA: He drove a truck. LAURA: So he was gone at night? DEBRA: Yes. He—he—actually he was gone a lot and so sometimes he would work until late in the evening—and then he would. . .he would get up, he’d have to sleep a few hours and then he got up and would have to be on the road again by midnight or a little bit before. So it was at that point, it was impossible for him to go to a meet. LAURA: And did your mom have a job? DEBRA: No, she was the housewife. LAURA: So do think that in any way that disappointed you or how did you just feel like this is what you wanted to do so you would do it or—were you wishing for more support from your family or how did you feel that that experience with your family not being 100% supportive, how do you feel like that affected you, if any? DEBRA: Well it didn’t change my mind I still wanted to be on the track team, to have a track team. So it didn’t change my mind at all. It would have made me feel probably better to know that there was more support and that they were behind me 100% in doing it but it didn’t change my mind I still wanted to do it. LAURA: And with your friends you mentioned one in particular, Barb, who was close with you and helped start the team with you. Do you feel like you guys had a special bond or you guys created a bigger and better friendship because of being involved in something like this? DEBRA: Yes and—and the fact that we were together every day in practice and running and had a common goal together especially those that were seniors and that were on the team. There were four of us that started it, Barb Vennema, Beth Cummings, and Pam Straight and each of us did a different event we didn’t even run the same events or anything. And—but yet there was always that common goal and we were always there to help each other and I think that that made our friendship stronger, and especially for Barb and I. We just, it was just one of the best experiences that we had that we could—and, and making a difference and starting something new and knowing that maybe the next year they would even do better the girls track team, than what we were—we were able to do. Page 9 �LAURA: With you four was it a coincidence that you did not run the same thing? DEBRA: I think... No. LAURA: Or based on different abifities it just kind of happened that you were not all milers DEBRA: Right I think it was our different abilities and also we started with guys and figuring out the events we were going to have, barb was the miler, and Beth ran shot put or did shot put and ran a couple of long distance events, Ann ran hurdles why we don’t know she just liked them, and I did middle distance the 880 and 440 which today is the 800 meter and 400 meter so it was just what we thought we were good at and what we like of course it helped that barbs boyfriend was a miler on the guys track team so she trained a lot with him so maybe that’s why she chose that one. LAURA: Did any of you hold any records in the races that you ran in the short time you were there? DEBRA: Well we all set records and they were all broken the next year but no for mine in the 880 I held the record for two years and I think that there was one other one but I’m not sure but I know that one but the goal was to have somebody break our record because in all actuality we were not very good and so the goal was to each year to improve and that is what happened. LAURA: And in forming this team and you necessarily did not have the support from the administration because they didn’t want to put the time and money into it how did you go about organizing the meets once you had a team established with different schools was that something that you were responsible for? DEBRA: No what happened is that when, I believe that when the administration the athletic director in particular saw that we were serious and that we were going to run with the guys team whether we had a girls team or not things started to take place I remember being called into his office and being told that because they saw that we were going to run with the guys that they had found somebody who would coach and actually it was going to be a team they did the girls swim team it was Linda and Roger Harriman.. . linda would be the head coach for the girls track team and roger would assist her and we thought it was funny because we knew that they were interested in it from the very beginning but the administration kept saying no we couldn’t have one so it was within a matter of a couple of weeks we had a coach we had new uniforms the schedule was set up busses were arranged and for the rest of the season it wasn’t like we had to set up the meets ourselves or anything Mr. Lovendowski had to go ahead and do that and we just always marveled that they were adamant that we weren’t going to have a team and then that was put together within a couple of weeks and I mean all of the things that needed to be done the meets he called other schools and got the meets because almost all of the other schools that the guys ran against had girl track teams so it was just the matter of us having another bus maybe to go to that meet there were a couple of meets that we went to that the guys didn’t go to that they set up separately so that we would feel enough events to if it was at all possible to qualify for states or conference but for the most part it was all done by Mr. Lovendowski once I think they saw the we were really serious and there were girls that were going to come out for the team. Page 10 �LAURA: So did you feel that he wasn’t against you personally he just didn’t want to put time and effort into something that wasn’t going to happen? DEBRA: Right I don’t think he was ever against us personally he just said it wasn’t it wouldn’t happen because of the timing the fmancial reasons and just the work that had to go into it Ijust don’t think he thought it was going to be worth it. LAURA: So you didn’t get uniforms until the track team was officially started correct? DEBRA: Correct. LAURA: So what did you wear before you had an official girl’s team? DEBRA: We wore some old basketball girls basketball teams uniforms which if anything about sports they are completely different from track uniforms so they were a little awkward but we were happy to have them we used them. LAURA: So you felt since other schools had already had a girls team there was no opposition from other schools and it was fairly easy to collaborate with them to get a team going and do you feel they were supportive of you guys getting a team as well? DEBRA: Yes some of the schools were really glad because they had girls teams and it made it a lot easier if they could run it in conjunction at the same day with the boys teams because they would run one race for the guys and then we would run a race as girls or whatever it was and then in the 2 mile and the mile they would run together and just have different timers but it worked out well and a lot of the schools were glad that we had started the team. LAURA: What were some of the schools that you ran against? DEBRA: Spring Lake, Muskegon, Mona shores, kellogsville, I can’t even think of all of them that we ran against. LAURA: Are they fairly the same conference that Fruitport is still currently in? DEBRA: Yes well a lot of it has changed since then because they have changed the boundaries and the rules and all of that but for the most part it would be the same o we ran against orchard view Fremont Fremont is where we held the conference was held that year at Fremont Reese puffer LAURA: And the other girls track teams did they have uniforms at first did you ever feel inadequate when you would go against established teams or were you just ready to run? DEBRA: I don’t know if the word inadequate would be the word we felt kind of a little bit awkward because they weren’t track teams but we were so excited to be running that we really didn’t care if we had to wear are own shirts t-shirts or whatever we would of done that but at least we looked like a team because we were all in a uniform even though they weren’t the correct ones. LAURA: In terms of running shoes what did you wear for shoes just regular tennis shoes? Page 11 �DEBRA: I did there were a couple of girls that we had that were sprinters that got a hold of some cleats but I ran with tennis shoes just regular tennis shoes because that’s all I had at the time a lot of us did we ran with tennis shoes but because we knew that our shoes weighed differently what we would do is run with weights at practice and then they felt lighter when we got to the meets. LAURA: And how did you figure that out was that something you guys came up with or did the guys help? DEBRA: The guys helped because they all had a lot of them had their track cleats and things and we knew that there were other shoes out there because we were interested in track so we learned things and read things and got information so we knew there were other things out there but a lot of us didn’t have extra money for that and of course the school didn’t provide for any of that either. LAURA: So when you started the team you had 4 girls and when you had an official girls team how many did you have? DEBRA: About 22. LAURA: And how long did that take you to get or did you find that it was hard to or were girls eager to join the track team? DEBRA: I think they were eager to join the track team there were a couple we would of liked to of had but their fathers said no that they couldn’t run track was not for girls so we had but for the most part we had ones that were really interested and really committed to it we got juniors and sophomores on the team so that we knew it would carry through to the next year we had a couple in fact our one sprinter actually qualified for conference and regional’s that year even and she was very good and the next year went on to win other things but we just went around asking as many as we could plus others had different commitments so the next year it was even bigger but that’s what we ended up with was 22 for the year. LAURA: Do you know approximately how many today run at Fruitport? DEBRA: No I don’t know for sure the team is a lot bigger they fill a couple 2 to 3 for each event and so the team is a lot bigger and has done a lot better in fact a couple of years after I was there they had quite a few that even qualified for conference and states and that so it’s grown over the years. LAURA: Did either one of your younger sisters run in the track team? DEBRA: No they didn’t my next younger sister probably would of but I don’t know that she really liked running she did powder puff football and that kind of thing and then my youngest sister had rheumatoid arthritis and was never able to run very well so she did not run on the track team either. LAURA: Is that something you would of liked for them to do or were you just happy to do it yourself? DEBRA: Well I was happy to do it myself but I would of liked to have see one of them do it I tried to encourage my sister penny to go out for the team but it just didn’t work out for her to do that. Page 12 �MOM: In our year on the track team was a harder year to the coach they had set up Linda Herrmann on our sports we had a sports banquet with the team and that night her daughter hit her head and had a brain aneurysm and she died so our last couple of regular meets plus the conference regional’s were with a different coach just one of the teachers he was math teacher Mr. Carison just stepped in and also one of the counselors Mr. Broderick stepped in to help the team going with us as a coach and that so it made the season a little bit more difficult and we were very determined after that because we wanted to not only do well for ourselves but to honor Linda and the effort that she had put out as our coach and losing her daughter and not being able to finish the season with us. LAURA: Was she ever the coach again? DEBRA: No her daughter’s death hit her pretty hard and so she didn’t come back as the swim coach or the track coach. LAURA: Do you know who then took over? DEBRA: Nope I don’t. LAURA: Do you feel like after you guys had your season that the rest of the school body and the administration were behind you and backed you? DEBRA: Yea I think that they did we got a lot of good comments from people staff members other students who think it was something that students saw that even though they were told no that things could still happen and I think that they were all very supportive and very glad that we did that and proud that there were some students that took action on their own we had a number of guys later that kept saying that there should be a plaque put up in the school for us because we went against the opposition and even though at the time we didn’t think it was any big deal but I guess other people thought it was and girls that ran afterwards were glad that we did that because even though the school would eventually I believe had a girls track team because that would have been what they did for sports I don’t know how many years it would of been before they would of done that. LAURA: So how do you think your impact on others was or what do you think your impact was in terms of those who ran track as well as those who did not do you feel like you guys had an impact on them? DEBRA: You mean on other students. LAURA: Yes. DEBRA: Yes I think we had an impact girls saw that they could have a sport even though if it wasn’t established at that time since then of course there is volleyball and all kinds of sports for girls and fruit port girls have done very well I think that it made a difference and kids believing that they could have a voice in the school even though they were told at first no and that if they showed detennination and stuck with something things could change. LAURA: Overall do you feel like you were satisfied with the outcome of what you four started? Page 13 �DEBRA: Yes overall we were glad the next year our records were broken and the next year more records were broken and as we could see that girls became more interested in track and ones that could excel at it because track is a team sport but also its an individual sport so girls that maybe weren’t really good in a gymnastic setting or even swim team were able to go out on the track and run around and they could do really well or they could high jump or even shot put or whatever it was it was a whole different kind of sport then gymnastics or swim team and so they could do something that maybe they could excel at. LAURA: So even though you were satisfied with the outcome what would you say were some of the greatest obstacles that you faced in developing the track team? DEBRA: Probably the greatest obstacle was just proving to those in leadership that we were going to stick with it and fmancially the opposition there being told that there was no money and we never were told where the money came from when they finally decided to let us have the team we all of a sudden the money was there so I think all along the money was there they just didn’t want to use it for that because they didn’t think that we were going to stick with it and so I think that was our greatest opposition was the administration it wasn’t the boys on the team it wasn’t the coaches themselves the guys coaches were great about it and so it wasn’t them I think it was the administration was our greatest opposition and using the funds for that. LAURA: In terms of the community or media did you get any media coverage or how do you feel the community felt what you guys were doing was right or wrong did you feel that you got support from them? DEBRA: I think for the most part we did get support from the community I know that there were a couple articles in the local newspaper in Fruitport and then also in the school newspaper of course you are going to have opposition from those who weren’t supportive of girls sports in the first place and like I said there were a couple girls their dads wouldn’t let them run and that kind of thing but overall the community support was good and I know that in the next years that followed there was a lot of support for the girls track team. LAURA: Did you feel like the team had a following if you went to different meets were people there to watch and support you? DEBRA: There were a few parents that did come regularly to the meets there were some of our friends who came and usually were there to support us but for the mostp it was if there were people at the meets they were there to watch the guys and even though they supported the girls we knew they weren’t there just to see us there were a couple on the guys team that were very good and they had a lot of fans you could say but I don’t think we really even thought about it or even cared who was there to watch us we were there to run and that’s what we wanted to do. LAURA: Were you involved in any other extracurricular at Fruitport or did track take up most of your time? Page 14 �DEBRA: I worked on the school newspaper and then also the yearbook although at that time the school newspaper was a class so I did that during the class time yearbook took up so time for me once I became involved in track that took up a lot ofmy time. LAURA: And in track or the other activities that you did, did you feel like that helped you as a person or in leadership roles do you think that did it take you out of your comfort zone or were you very comfortable in taking the role of a leader? DEBRA: Before that track team I didn’t know that I could lead I think it did take me out of my comfort zone for the most part I was pretty quiet in school until I had to go to the athletic director and talk to him about the track team and I remember that I somehow became the spokesman and when he needed something or wanted to talk to somebody I got called to his office about the team and how that happened I’m not even sure but I believe that the experience with the track team gave me a lot more confidence as an individual and helped me in going off to school and thinldng that I could take on things that I hadn’t taken on before and after school and working at a public school I was able to coach assistant coach for one year and coach the next year the girls track team which was a new venture for Comstock Park also at that time the girls track team was a new thing for them and that was pretty neat to get to see these girls trying to make the team work in their school to and working with them so I think the experience of starting a girls track team at Fruitport was life changing for me. LAURA: As the coach at Comstock Park did you share with them what you had done and did you feel they were more inspired by what you had done to inspire them? DEBRA: I think so I was able to talk with a lot of girls and say you got to keep trying you got to keep pushing and even though they were new and actually for being a new team they had quite a few girls that came out for the team and then of course talking to them because unless you have a vast amount of talent in the school the first year as a team in any sport will be a struggle and just fmding out where you fit in and different things like that so I think I was able to talk to the girls at Comstock Park because there team was new and encouraging them that it wasn’t always going to be like that they would have each year improve and more girls would be interested and more girls would come out and so then you can specialize in your events and you don’t have to run or fill in so that you have enough to fill the events and that’s what I think our first year at Fruitport because we didn’t have as many and we had to fill in and maybe we couldn’t focus on just one event like some of the schools that you run against girls would only run one event I remember I would have to run against girls in the 440 that were fresh coming out to run the 440 and I’d already run an 880 and so I never came out on my 440 fresh and not already used up a lot of energy for that so I had to and that makes a difference and that part I could encourage others and that say keep working at it and it will happen. LAURA: Are you glad that you were in the place you were at Fruitport to start the team or does a part of you wish that you could have specialized in an event.. .had it already been established? DEBRA: Sometimes I wish I would have been able to specialize, I would have liked to have seen what I could have done. But yet, as I said, the whole experience of starting a team, working administration, Page 15 �standing up for something I really thought should be was life changing and I wouldn’t have wanted to change that even if I could have focused on one event. LAURA: Although it was life changing for you did you think about the impact that it would have on future generations of girls pretty much forever? DEBRA: Not a whole lot. We knew that, the next year the girls were going to be able to have a team and it would be kind of neat to see. And it wasn’t until I was coaching and we went to a regional meet, where I saw girls from Fruitport running and it was kind of neat to see girls from Fruitport in Fruitport uniforms.. .by that time they had new uniforms.. .and just be able to see them run and win events and stuff and think “I was part of that, I had a part in letting them run.” LAURA: Do you think that they knew what you guys had done for them? Do you think that necessarily girls think about that? DEBRA: I think the couple years after we graduated I think they thought about it. But after that, no. Because the stories die down and they don’t know you as much. I think those that were freshmen when we were seniors in running, they still remembered it when they got to be seniors. But after that no. Even though there were, like I said, those guys kept saying that a plaque needed to be put up. LAURA: Is there? DEBRA: No. That was never done. LAURA: So there’s nothing a Fruitport High School to show that you guys started the team? DEBRA: No, just in the archives that will say when the team started and the records that go back. And I guess the athletic director will have the archives or the yearbooks are in the libraries. And that’s pretty all that, except for our memories. (laughs) LAURA: Do you have any advice that you would give to others that face adversity? DEBRA: I guess my advice would be, first determine is what you’re doing or what your faith, is it worth standing up for. And if you believe that it is worth standing up for that, and that it will make an impact later than, to stay with it. And eventually things will change. They may not always change to the way you want them to or exactly the way you pictured it. But things will change and to just stay with it. LAURA: What do you think the key factors were for you personally to keep with it? What drove you to stick with it and what determined you to start this team? DEBRA: Well I always liked running. I thought I was good at it. And I wanted to win a first place (laughs), I guess that motivated me a lot to want to do that. But also for the fact that I guess.. .because we wanted a team... guys had team, and why couldn’t girls have a track team in school. And just that they told us “No, we couldn’t have one”, and that we just wanted to show people that we could. And that kept us going and when the guys coach told us we could run with them and the fact that when we ran with guys they were very supportive of us and kept us along with that. Page 16 �LAURA: So do you think without the support of the guys it would have been a lot harder? DEBRA: Yes! Yes. Because there was...I mean just little things that they would tell us. How to keep hydrated. How to.. .you know something, if we had pains, how to stretch. How to do just things that they were always.. .that they got told by the coaches and had been working at it. They had already had a team for years. And just little things that they did. I’ll never forget.. .a funny thing. They told us to have orange slices but oranges go fast. And so one kid told us have a grapefruit. He always brought a grapefruit and that’s what we started doing (laughs). And grapefruits lasted through the whole track meet. LAURA: Do you think that the difference in the community and how close knit some people were, do you think that affected their support or did they just want to see you succeed regardless whether you were a close knit community? DEBRA: I think they just wanted us to succeed. I don’t think at that time we were really.. .1 don’t know if close knitted community Fruitport is.. .buy yet I think there would be support for the team. It was just the right time. LAURA: So after you graduated where did you.. .you coached at Comstock Park and where did you go after that? DEBRA: Well I went to school to Grand Rapids School of the Bible in New Zeek. And there I ran.. .which was interesting they had a cross country team for the guys but did not for the girls. And there was a couple of us that did run with the guys at a couple of the cross country meets. To me that was just a usual thing at the point. And we didn’t get a whole lot of support there but we still did it. One of the girls happened to be from the Ludington area Scotville, who came from the school with a tremendously big girls school track team. And she was this All-State champion. And her and I hooked up together and we ran cross country with the guys there and ran with the school of Bible Music. And it was after that the.. .1 was working at Comstock Park Public School. After that, got married and moved away. Continued to run for a number of years and finally let it go. But always been supportive of track teams. Had a daughter, have a daughter who ran track and was always real proud of that. Felt that in some ways it was just cool to watch my daughter get to run on a team and not have to question whether she would be able to or not, it’s an accepted thing now for girls. And that’s a cool thing to watch. LAURA: Do you think even if it wasn’t socially acceptable with your experience would you be supportive of your daughter even though your mom wasn’t fully supportive of you? DEBRA: I think so I... We all have our individual taste and even though it might be something that I might not be fully liking but that she would like it I think that I would be supportive for her. LAURA: Did your mom ever later have more support for you or after you started the team, did she show more support or was she still distant? DEBRA: I would say no she’s never been supportive of it. In fact I talked to her not too long ago about it. She just always brushes it off as, well she has other things to do. And she flatly told me that she didn’t think girls should have been involved in that. So that’s the way it stands and probably always will be. Page 17 �LAURA: Do you think with that experience that you were more supportive of your children or did you try to attend more activities they did? DEBRA: Yes, I never wanted one ofmy children to ever say that my parents never saw me do something. So I made the determination at that point that I would go to what my children were involved in and watch them, whether it was something I really liked or not. I don’t always understand some of the games but I was there to support them no matter what because I did not ever want them to look up in the stands and wonder what it would be like to have mom and dad there. I never wanted them to wonder that. I wanted them to know that I was supportive of them and I would be there for them. LAURA: So, although track was a big part of your life, you said that you think that it gave you the confidence to do things that helped you in other areas of like and if so, what? DEBRA: I think it did give me help in other areas of my life, it gave me confidence that I didn’t know that I had. Because I could stand up for what I believed in and for what I wanted. I could voice my opinion. And in what areas.. .1 just think an overall in life. I mean even just going to job interviews later on, and just meeting different people and talking to different people. It gave me the confidence to know that I was capable of doing things I hadn’t tried before. And it helped me want to try to do other things that I hadn’t before. LAURA: With your children did you ever share your story of starting the track team in hopes that they would have the confidence to stand up what they believed in? DEBRA: I did share it, I don’t know if they ever did something with it (laughs). But yeah I did share it in hoping that they would try something new, to go out there and maybe it’s not always easy, life isn’t always easy. And just to, to try it. Even though there is opposition sometimes that it’s not the norm thing. LAURA: Have you been back to Fruitport since you graduated? DEBRA: I have not. Oh, I take that back. I did come back to Fruitport, there was one meet that I did go to while I was still in the Grand Rapids area and after that I moved away. So I haven’t been back since then. But I did come back and try to keep track of it. Especially when my sister was in school, my sister Penny and my sister Jennifer, I tried to keep track of what was going on and how the track meet was or how the track team was doing. But to come back for a track team after that for a track meet, I haven’t. LAURA: Did you ever think that you would stay in Fruitport and coach the track team or wasn’t that some that you necessarily wanted to do? DEBRA: Never thought about it, never thought about coming back and coaching there or even.. .1 left shortly after I graduated from high school and really have not lived in the area since. So I really never thought about coming back. LAURA: Do you have any ties to the Fruitport area still? Page 18 �DEBRA: Yes I have my sister. In fact now that you.. .my sister’s youngest daughter is running track and did last year in middle school. And she has another year in middle school and hopefully she’ll stick with track and go on to run for the high school. That would be pretty neat to see? LAURA: Does she know that you started the track team? DEBRA: I told her! (laughs). I said “Kelsey”. I told her that little story and hopefully she’ll remember that. And I know that my sister Penny remembers it, she was the one who came and watched the few times when she could. Staying after school, she had to stay after school and come over to the track meet. So hopefully, Kelsey will continue to run and maybe I’ll get to see her run in a high school meet. LAURA: Did you feel that because of what you accomplished that people or your sister in particular looked up to you? DEBRA: Penny, to a certain extent, looked up to me and that always make you feel good when someone looks up to you. But I think that the one thing that made a difference for me in thinking about it, is because my sister who, next oldest to me Denise, was always very good at running and everything. And I remember her always saying, “I wish there would have been a team for me, I wish I could have done what you did.” And that was always kind of neat because a lot of times when you’re the younger, you don’t hear that for the older siblings very much. And it was neat to have Penny, one of the younger ones look up to me, but it was kind of neat to have an older sister say that. LAURA: Did you feel the impact of people being inspired by you or were you just happy with yourself and not really worried what others thought, positively or negatively? DEBRA: I don’t think I really thought about how other people were going to see it. I was just happy that I could run and participate in the meets. I really didn’t think about what other people were thinking about it. LAURA: And in terms of accomplishments did you receive any varsity letters or medals? DEBRA: I received a varsity letter and numerals also. Did not receive any medals. I never was able to place first in any of the events that I ran. I was close, I was only a tenth of a second against Muskegon. So even though that would have been nice, it was just the fact I was able to run and 4. come that close. So yeah got my varsity letter and numerals. And I hadn’t been able to do that in any other thing because I wasn’t involved in any other sport so it was kind of neat to be able to accomplish that. LAURA: And was there a specific leader or.. • was there one person that was the point person or the.. .kind of the head of the track team besides the coach or did the four starters kind of take the role? DEBRA: I think it was mostly Barb, Venimu, and I that were the leaders. Pam was kind of a quiet girl, so she didn’t really take that much. And Beth, she was kind of crazy (laughs) and she just wasn’t very organized or anything. So I think it was mostly Barb and myself that became the point people or the spokespeople when there was an issue or something that needed to be handled, the athletic director would ask for one of us. Or when Linda.. .the Haremans, when her daughter died. It was Mr. Carlson and Mr. Broderick who would ask us for information, or who was running what or whatever it was. So that Page 19 �we helped a lot of that. We even ran... one of the meets was on Senior Skip Day and we were told that the seniors didn’t have to show up. But every one of the seniors showed up to run. And that kind of cool because they didn’t have to, but they did anyway. LAURA: Did you receive any special recognition for being one of the two main leaders? DEBRA: Not really.. .1 got larger numerals (laughs) from the athletic director because he said we had helped out with the team so much. But other than that, no. Just at the sports banquet. It was mentioned it was the first year for the team for those who had started it. LAURA: And... DEBRA: I don’t think. LAURA: Are you still close or are you still friends with any of the girls that you first ran with on the track team? DEBRA: With Barb. Pam I haven’t seen since high school. Beth Cummings I saw at our 20th class reunion, she is now a doctor out east at one of the big hospital back there, so she doesn’t come back much. And the fact that I moved away and really have not lived around here since high school made a big factor, (inaudible). There are a couple, Sherry Lenard ran on the team and I still have contact with her. I think that’s about it. I’ve seen a couple of them, but not to have stayed real close in touch with any of them. LAURA: And do you feel that girls today are treated equally in terms of sports? DEBRA: No, I don’t think girls are treated equally. I think boys sports will always get, to a certain extent more recognition, more money, more support. Especially football and boys basketball. Even though girls a lot of times excel at that their sports, I don’t think it’s equal. And I don’t know why that is. But, in any school system that I’ve been involved with or that my kids have been in, I’ve never felt that girls sports are equal to the boys sports, in any way, financially or supportive by the parents or any of that. So I just think it, no I don’t think it’s equal. LAURA: And how many... do you have sons? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: How many? DEBRA: Two... and one daughter. LAURA: And when watching them did you, felt the same that girls’ sports didn’t get as much recognition as boys and as a parent, does that bother you? DEBRA: I don’t think girls’ sports get as much recognition, even if they win state championships in their division, in their sports. I don’t think their recognized as much as the guys are. I don’t think the attention is focused on girls’ sports. I don’t think that financially the money goes towards girls sports. One school we were in they setup a whole weight room and everything. They told us it was for the football team, even though it had been used for a lot of different sports. It was mainly put there for the boys’ football Page 20 �team. Which was a lot of money and yes, football team players could use it. But I thought it was very unequal to the girls because so much money is put in the boys’ sports and not into girls. I just wonder what it would be like if more money was put into girls sports. The coaches were scrutinized like they are for the boys, especially for football and basketball and that kind of thing. LAURA: So even though you have come so far. ..help Fruitport come far and girls sports as a whole, are you at all disappointed where girls sports are versus boys or do you feel that girls are in a better place than what they used to be? DEBRA: They’ve made a whole lot progress. They’re in a better place than they used to be. Could they be in a better place? Yeah, I think so. Fruitport has a fantastic girls’ volleyball team now. The girls track is better and bigger than it ever was. But I think it could do better, but it doesn’t have the financial backing that boys’ sports does. LAURA: And in closing and further advice or any comments you would like to share? DEBRA: I don’t think so. Just that be supportive of those sports, and if you see something that’s being unfairly done, speak up. Let’s see ifwe can make them equal. LAURA: Airight, thank you. And that concludes our oral history with Debra Bussing Sawinski on November 28th, 2011. END OF INTERVIEW Page 21 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e21dfc76d2c673cc683308457c6476cd.mp3 ce760d719b0e6dd83eb853d19bd1b14d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Sawinski_Debra Title A name given to the resource Debra Sawinski audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sawinski, Debra Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schreur, Brian Sawinski, Laura Bell, Marcus Moeing, Robin Description An account of the resource Debra Sawinski discusses how she started the first all girls track team at her high school and the struggles that came along with in. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Sex discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7bb38fdc07b797cf3c4580523881c67a.pdf 82a486e39f1a4786c702490a90dabd09 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Robert Robson Interviewers: Kyle LeMieux, Amanda Hengesbac and Tara Yax Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/26/2011 Biography and Description Robert Robson is a military veteran who was born and raised in Grand Rapids. He signed a contract with the navy in 1962 and spent 4 years in active duty and 2 years in the inactive reserves. He has a lot of memories from his time in the navy and talked about his views on the military and being a veteran in the United States. Growing up in Grand Rapids he had a lot of stories about some of the things that have been changing in the area including diversity. Transcript YAX: Ok here we go. Hey. Ok so I’m here with Robert Robson, Yes? Ok. Here we go. So where did you grow up? Where were you born? ROBSON: About a mile from where we’re at. YAX: Really? ROBSON: Yeah YAX: Born and raised in Grand Rapids? ROBSON: Yep YAX: How was that? ROBSON: I started out in Gailwood, is where the first home that I remember. it was a middle class low income middle class at the time because that’s what everybody made at that time. You know I mean it wasn’t as the middle class obviously progressed over the years you have the income increase too. But it was it was just a middle class neighborhood. Everybody was equal. my parents we kind of went through, kind of went through the depression and everything. when just before I became school age about four and a half years old and we moved about, about a mile and a half, two miles from where we, where I was raised. And I stayed there until I left home. and I graduated from Lee High school. YAX: Oh ok ROBSON: In 59. So. Page 1 �YAX: So what was it like going through the depression? Do you remember a lot of it? ROBSON: Well I was really really young then. I just remember that, I remember more of the war being over cuz I was, well because I was born in 41, so I, I, but I remember more of the war being over. I remember, vaguely remember fireworks and guns being fired when the war was over [laughter] Of all things. There there’s sort of a you know an oxymoron you know. Guns being fired the war is over. but and, and I remember when we would play we had the tokens and different things. The scrips and different things that we had, my parents had during the war and, and, and through the depression they had little tokens that were worth 5 cents or 5 dollars or a dollar or something. Then they had the, the scrips, which were small little paper chips like and they had values written on them in place of money. And so it’s, it was kind of like, it, it, it was kind of like a forerunner to the food stamp thing. my parents had to pay a certain amount, then they would get these chips and then they could go to the grocery store or gas and buy produce or other stuff with it. YAX: Oh ok ROBSON: And I remember running across a book after my mother died of prices that she paid at a second hand store for, for clothes for us kids. I had two younger sisters and two older sisters and there was prices in there like a pair of socks for a nickel, blue jeans for like fifteen cents, you know. And I would just, just page after page in this book, which was about an inch and a half almost two inches thick. And it was a daily recording of everything that she spent. it just that they had to watch their pennies that closely. YAX: Wow ROBSON: my grandparents actually are the ones that bought the house for my parents. at the time there was a lot of money. I mean the house that we lived in was a very large two story. It had 3 bedrooms, and a bathroom full bath upstairs, and then down stairs you had a, a kitchen and a half bath, a sunroom, and a breakfast nook, and then you had a dining room and a living room. And then the basement was the basement [laughs]. There wasn’t furnished, but it wasn’t a Michigan basement either. It was just a low basement made out of cement blocks and stuff. But that house and it sat on a lot and a half, it was on one of the bigger lots on the street and they paid 5,000 dollars for that house, YAX: Wow ROBSON: Which at that time was a lot of money for a house that big, but we had we figure 5 children and 2 adults living in that house so we needed all the room we could get. And it had a sun porch on the back, which eventually my parents had made into a closed in room. And my mother moved all of her sewing equipment up there. But it also, it also served as an extra bedroom and stuff. YAX: So you lived in a three-bedroom house with five kids? ROBSON: Yeah it was a little crowded [laughter]. Yeah it was a little crowded. But it eventually as my two older sisters got out of high school, my oldest sister, she and her fiancé, he was in the army and he came home eventually they got married and then my other older sister she moved out on her own so then it was just my two younger sisters and myself at home. But still it was, it was it was tough because Page 2 �things were starting to change businesses were, my dad really didn’t have a good trade at that time and he met a man who became a friend and he owned, this man owned the tool and die shop out on 28th street, which is no longer there, the building is no longer there. And he taught my dad how to be a tool and die maker. And so, and my dad was very good with numbers so he caught on pretty quick. so he, he he learned how to be a tool and die maker and then from time to time he worked at American seeding at one time. He worked at Reynolds aluminum, which is now down there on [unintelligible]. It’s a conglomerate now with smaller, with smaller businesses in there, but it used to be Reynolds aluminum. Reynolds metals company originally. He worked there as a tool and die maker and then he, he got, aluminum kind of took a dive for a while there and so he got laid off for a short time and then he ended up working at Steelcase and he retired from Steelcase as a tool and die man. he quit school when he was 16 so that tells you, and he was from a farm he was from the wayland area, which is about what, 30 miles south of here, so 25 30 miles south of here. And, and because he lived on a farm it was the thing for most of the boys to, most boys anyways to go to school until they were about 16 17 years old and then they would quit school and then spend their time helping on the farm. Well he was an only child so his extra hands were needed on the farm. But it was you know his, his grand, his parents lived on this big farm, and they didn’t have a lot of things either. They had a the most modern thing that I remember down there was that they had a a propane tank and that they had a gas stove. That was probably the most thing. Because their, their water, they had a hand pump on the sink you know. they had they raised a lot of their own vegetables and stuff. My grandmother would, would can and they had a what they called a fruit cellar. And that fruit cellar was actually nothing more than a hole dug in the ground, under the house, [laughter] and back under the house a ways, so that there was no heat in it. But in the winter time it acted as cold storage, [laughter] and they would have, she would have all of her stuff, all of her things that she canned during the summer would be sitting down there and so they had food all winter long and then they had this big garden and they always had a lot of potatoes and stuff so they would throw them down there. And there’s nothing worse then spoiled potatoes [laughter], But they had a small farm. It was an 80-acre farm and they did a lot of bartering. Now we’re talking, I was born in 41 so this is the end of the 40’s, early 50’s, and they still bartered with the neighbors. my, my grandmother might have some excess, they might have some excess food out of their garden so if, and they might want to get some eggs so they would take some vegetables or my grandmother would do sewing and they would take that to another farmers house and they would exchange that for say butter and eggs. they didn’t need milk because he had his own milking cows, and he had, he had, we had, they had some chickens, but they only had like a few. Every once in a while one of them would upset my grandfather we’d have it for supper [laughter]. So, so the eggs, so the eggs came out kind of short once in a while. But they had a, they had a pig you know a couple pigs, you know. It was a typical small, small farm really. He farmed, with horses, he didn’t have any machinery, modern machinery you know like tractors and stuff. The first time I saw a tractor on his farm was when they were gonna move from Wayland to Middleville, and what they did was they, they swapped with a man and his family in Middleville who had an 80-acre farm but it wasn’t farming, and what he wanted was a working farm, so they just swapped. And my grandfather wanted to get out of the, because he was getting up there in age, so that’s what they did. And then but they brought over all kinds of people to help harvest the wheat, and the grain and stuff that summer, and do the baling and all that so that all of this stuff could be figured into the costs of the farm, and how much of it you know money wise my Page 3 �grandfather was going to get. Because it was a working farm vs. a non-working farm he had a little bit more of an investment then this other guy did. So he had to, this guy had to pay him some dollars in cash. But so when they moved it. But I remember I never saw so many people, I never saw so much food, [laughter]. And that’s the first time I saw tractors and baling machines. And, and mechanical thrashing machines. YAX: Wow ROBSON: Otherwise my grandfather did everything with a team of horses. He would plow, plant, harvest, everything with his horses. and I would, I got around five or six, about five years old, four or five years old my parents would, I would go down on the farm, and when I was about five or six years old I knew how to drive a team of horses, you know. Which I thought was pretty cool [laughter]. And you know, how many kids in my neighborhood back home that were older then me, they couldn’t drive horses, but I could, you know. So, but It was it was that’s the kind of the way the lifestyle was you know. then, oh and then right across the street there was a lake so they did some fishing. They had fresh fish, and my grandparents had a well YAX: Wow ROBSON: A fresh water well on their farm, which was about four feet, or about, I don’t know, six to eight feet long, about five feet wide, and about eight feet deep about half full of water. And that water in there was clear as glass, and it was just as cold as can be, about forty some degrees. YAX: Oh ROBSON: And it bull heads in the bottom of it to keep the algae out. They would eat all the algae. So they kept the water clear. They had Indians that came over that were in the area down there in Wayland, that picked pickles for some of the neighbors, and they would come over to my grandparents and get fresh water from them. YAX: Oh wow. ROBSON: And these people didn’t have, these people had absolutely nothing to speak of. My parent, my grandparents were rich compared to them. But these people were proud and they would come over and get the water, but they wouldn’t just take the water. They’d get something in return for it. They would do it, and this goes back to the barter thing. they would sharpen grandma’s knives that she needed sharpened in the kitchen or they would take care of grandpa’s tools for him, you know, sharpen tools that needed to be sharpened or and then they would, but they had these huge crocks that you see where they would have the yolks and they would have these two big, on the neck yolks you know, and they would have these big crocks filled with water. These things held about ten gallons each. And there would be women that would carry them on their heads, you know, and hey would take them over to the fields and then they would have that cold water, and these crocks were, would keep that water cold as long as the kept it out of the sun, and the crocks didn’t heat up. You know. but I remember one of the Indian families had a death in the family, and my grandparents took some food over to them, and I remember there was an awful lot of people living in one small house. It was probably, the house was Page 4 �probably twice the size of this room that we’re sitting in, length and width wise. And it had a loft up above. That’s where all the children slept, were in the loft. And it had some rooms down below for their parents and it had a fireplace. That’s where they did all their cooking was in the fireplace. YAX: Ah ROBSON: it had a dirt floor in most of the cases, and it was a paper tar shack, but it had real windows in it, real glass windows in it. But they didn’t have much. Those people didn’t, and but they were good people. They I mean I thought it was really an honor to know real live Indians, you know, and, and know the, I, I knew the chief. I can’t tell you their names cuz I don’t remember them it was so long ago. But they but they were really nice people, you know. but that was how my grand, my great grandfather lived in the reed city area and I went to his farm one time and you talk about something that would, that was desolate. I don’t know how he made a living on that farm, but he did. You know. I mean that farmers in, in, my background being from the farm, these people were, were rugged individuals but they were and tenacious. They wouldn’t give up. You know. And they, they would just as time went on you know, and things got better and better my, my mother and father finally after my dad retired were able to have save enough money and go places. Visit you know, and see some of the world. You know, they and but it, it all came with time, you know, as, as these things advanced and things got better for us kids. We had better clothing we could, we could get dress up clothes [laughter] you know, that we didn’t have before, and so it, it all, it, it you know as, as, as it evolved, as the economies got better and everything after the war and that things got better. The neighborhood was nice I go to that neighborhood now today and it doesn’t look any different then the last time I was there as a kid. YAX: Really? ROBSON: it doesn’t, it hasn’t changed that much at all. The same houses, and I could go down there and name the people that lived in the houses you know. It’s really wild. but it but still it hasn’t changed that much. It’s still a blue-collar neighborhood and it most of the kids still go to Lee. there’s some of them that go to Holy [unintelligible], which is the catholic school over on Godfrey there’s a few of them that, that when I was growing up, up on Grandville avenue there was a Christian school called southwest Christian, and it was a went up to the 7th or 8th grade and then from there they went downtown to Christian high school, which is now I believe where the state now has welfare offices in there, its on Franklin I believe it is. at the top of Franklin and its, its that’s, that school up there is was transformed into a, a welfare office and stuff, and then, because then they built South Christian out south of town, and then the other Christian school over off in Plymouth. YAX: Right. ROBSON: So they didn’t need that big building downtown anymore. So the state bought it and that’s what they use it for. So it’s been a lot of changes and stuff you know, YAX: Right. Page 5 �ROBSON: Around, but it but that’s how my beginnings were, basically my, my parents, my grandmother and grandfather on my mothers side were farmers they lived in Burton Heights right across from Burton school as a matter of fact, and that house is still there. But they had a huge garden in the back too. YAX: H. ROBSON: you know, and you, the amazing thing about my grandfather was he was about 6 foot 3 or 4, he was a big man, but he didn’t drive. And he got a job at Steelcase. YAX: Hmm ROBSON: He would walk everyday to work. From Cutler and Buchanan all the way down to hall and Buchanan to Steelcase. At, actually he’d walk down there to Century and Hall is where, is where it was. Everyday, unless the weather was really, really, super, super bad. And then my grandmother might drive him down or someone would pick him up as he started to walk down there. But, they didn’t have a whole lot either. Their house is you go into that house and its quite small. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: It had, I’m trying to remember, I’ve only, I was only upstairs in that house a couple times, but I think it had a a storage space and a bedroom upstairs and then it had, then downstairs was another bedroom and a kitchen and a dining room and a living room and then it had a Michigan basement under it. And it’s, I remember one thing about the house, the stairways were very narrow YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: Really, really narrow. so it wasn’t and course they’d be, being in the city they had gas my grandmother didn’t have to use a, a coal stove or anything like that. She had a, but it was an old fashioned kitchen stove YAX: Mm hmm, ROBSON: I mean compared to what we have today. But, one of the things I’ll say about my grandmothers, both of them, they could cook! [Laughter]. They were excellent cooks. and, and my mother and, and my mother and my sisters, older sisters I think gathered something from those ladies and the way they did cook you know. these ladies could cook without recipes and the food was you know, really good. And bake, oh man they made the best pastries in the world. I know my, my dad’s mother used to make sugar cookies that were probably oh 6 inches in diameter, [laughter] and they’d just melt in your mouth and then my, my mother’s mother she made the best peanut butter cookies in the world. And they were just really good. But those, they, both those ladies could cook, so the food was good. My mother had to learn to do all that stuff. She would go, my mother and 3 of her neighbors [laughs], this was always room for, they would go through the paper and pick out sales that were going on, at Kroger, or A and P or, whoever the stores were around, and then the 4 of them would go shopping together. But what was funny is they might travel, they might spend, use up 5 gallons of gas to save a dime on food or something, which was kind of funny. But they would do that, I mean that might be an exaggeration a little bit, [laughter], but, but that’s what they would do. They would go from, they Page 6 �might go to one store and only pick up 2 maybe 3 items, and then go to another store and get a bunch more, but when they came home they had all the groceries that they went out to get, but they got them at, on sale. Also, we, where my, my parents lived over there, off in Gailwood there over by Lee school there, there was a man named Noel. He lived on the corner of prair [pause to think], what is that prairie, no not prairie anyway down there in Burlingame right on the corner, I cant quite think of the name of the street right now, Beverly I think it is, or right near there, and he had a muck farm, a truck farm, and he would pick fresh vegetables and stuff, and he had a big truck, and he would load it up with ice and put all these vegetables on it and he would go through the neighborhood and sell these fresh vegetables. And you could buy bunches, you could buy a watermelon that was as big as you were you know, YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: For 15 cents. you could buy a dozen ears of corn for 15 cents. You could buy lettuce, either leaf lettuce or head lettuce, either one for leaf lettuce was maybe 4 cents, and head lettuce was maybe a nickel. Or you could get he had everything. He had fresh beets, he had just you name it, he had it. He had Carrots, radishes YAX: Right ROBSON: You know the whole thing. And it was all fresh. And you, and he would come down the street you know, and the women and other, everybody would come out you know and buy stuff, [laughter], and he’d go on until he sold all of his produce for that day. And that’s how I mean that’s kinda how he got started. He, he, he evolved, I mean he had several boys, and a couple of daughters I think, and they, they farmed the land for him and stuff. And their boys, I know a couple of their boys and they all turned out to be very hard workers. he they, I cant say that they had a lot. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: but they were all very, very hard workers. Most of them spent a good portion of their life with produce like that, bringing it around to the neighborhood. So that’s all still part of, of the post war period, right after, a few years after the war. YAX: Right. ROBSON: Before things really started to change. And, and you know or big time. It was, you went through a lot of other changes and stuff in there politically and so forth but it was, it was a whole lot different then. you didn’t have anywhere near the crime that we have today, mainly because I think of two things. One everything you wanted you could get at a reasonable price. And, and two I don’t think you had to be, everybody was equal. You know, they didn’t have, you weren’t you’re neighbors had the same thing that you did. Ah yeah maybe they, they saved their money a little bit differently and maybe they were, they might dress a little bit better, but not that much, you know. and their job might be a little better, but it was all basically on the same plane, YAX: Mm hmm. Page 7 �ROBSON: Same scale, same level. So you, so you you were all pretty equal, so you didn’t need to steal from anybody, or, or anything like that. Its not to say that you weren’t mischievous [laughter], but I, but yeah. I and my neighbor boy buddies, we got in our share of trouble for doing things we shouldn’t have. But the for a ling time Wyoming was a township. And so it didn’t, it, its, its police department was a branch of the Kent County sheriffs department. So even though for a long time it wasn’t a for, it was quite a few years before they kinda can honestly say they got their own police force. But then, I was away when I graduated in ’59, and then shortly there after I went to J C for a short period of time and then I went into service. And then it was while I was in the service that Wyoming incorporated into a city. and then, a lot of things changed then obviously. a lot of the, the neighborhoods that were individual neighborhoods now were all one, and if you go down on Chicago Drive between Burlingame and Godfrey or between Burlingame yeah, well, actually it, its not just between Burlingame and Godfrey, but if you, you start at Burlingame pretty much and go East on Chicago drive, you can see what was there. A lot, every, practically every business that is there today was there when I was a kid, but it might have been something different. some places there’s a used car lot that used to be a standard gas station. There’s a barber shop where there used to be a Clark gas station. There’s a restaurant where there used to be a dairy and I don’t know, what’s in that big, at the big store there that used to be a general store that was run by a woman and it was like a nickel and dime place for us. We’d go in there you know and if you had 10 cents in your pocket you’d go down there and buy yourself a bottle of pop or something. We used to sit on her front step and go in and buy a vernors ginger ale and see who could shoot it the farthest. [Laughter]. But because it was so carbonated. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: like down through, you could go down through there and you could see the different buildings. There’s, there was one place that used to make donuts or something like that, I think it’s an awning shop now. There’s another gas station that does something different. There’s a place that used to be a bike shop that I don’t know what they do there anymore. There’s a body shop that used to I don’t know what they do anymore either but right next door used to be a restaurant, well that’s gone now and there’s a funeral home that took up that whole property. then beyond the funeral home there’s a drug store that’s been there for years and its gone form one thing to another. and as you go on down through there and then you work you’re way down Grandville Avenue up Grandville Avenue, and then down into the city of Grand Rapids. Matter of fact at Clyde Park is where the city of Grand Rapids and the city of Wyoming meet. YAX: Oh ok. ROBSON: And so there on the corner used to be a a hardware store that it was the dpiest, junkiest hardware store you’d ever seen in your life. But if you wanted anything, if they didn’t have it upstairs they would find it in the basement. and it burned to the ground one time. And then behind them used to be Calvinators, which was, they used to make stoves, refrigerators, YAX: Oh ok. Page 8 �ROBSON: And things like that. and they that was a big company in there. Matter of fact for the Lee school district that was one of their big tax people, that was one of the properties that helped Lee school for many, many years and then they had Calvinators kind of fell on hard times, and then the main building, which was about 4 stories high they caught on fire, actually it was set on fire by, by somebody living in there or something, and it burned down, they tore it down so now if you go down there there’s, there’s quite a big vacant area. But some of the smaller parts of the factory are back in there and they’re all individual buildings now, but they’re all still parts of the original factory. and then right across the street there’s a big cement building, it looks like a bank, but that used to be the corporate headquarters for Calvinator in there. I don’t know what’s in there now. But there’s, it’s changed around there a lot. There’s some stores in there now and the used to be up on Grandville Avenue it was you’re white middle class was most of it. And it’s now changed quite a bit too. There’s a lot of Hispanic up in that area. there’s also some, some of your the blacks are up in that area. and that kinda continues on pretty much all the way down towards Grand Rapids and to the east toward what used to be South High School, which is now also a building that, that was a public school but, it has some department of help of some form in there you know that take care of families and stuff like that in there. and they do do some educating there too I understand but I don’t know how much. My, my cousins graduated from there. YAX: Oh ok. ROBSON: my mother went to school there. That’s what used to be South High School. Matter of fact I have a cousin who when he graduated he was the last class that was there. And, they had a chimney right, and this chimney it was a tradition for many years for the senior class to write their class year on it. Well when my cousin Russell was there they cancelled that. But somehow his graduating nber got written up there on the chimney. And nobody knew how it got there. YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: So Russell I’m gonna tell on you, [laughs]. My cousin was the one that did it. He went up there and painted it [laughter]. But, he, he he had 3 brothers, and a sister. they were my mother’s nieces and nephews, my cousins. 4 of the smartest kids I’ve ever known in my life. first of all my uncle was extremely smart. Unfortunately he ruined his life because of alcohol, which was too bad. His wife was just an absolute genius. I, I think that any, any, I mean she was just incredibly smart, and fortunately all the kids gained that. to be honest with you I don’t know where any of them are today. I know that they’re all still alive. There’s one of them lived in Hudson, er Byron center. The last I heard my, my cousin Russell I think lived, was retired from the navy and he was living I think in California or Florida. I don’t know, maybe he had a place in both. And I don’t know where the other two boys went. One used to live out on 68th street someplace, but he moved so I don’t know where he went. so I, I don’t keep real track of my family but I just know that, that most of them are middle income people. YAX: Do you keep track with your sisters? ROBSON: Yeah, yeah. Cuz they live close by. YAX: Ok. Page 9 �ROBSON: I have one that lives in, well, well, with one exception, which is my sister Martha. She lives in, in Florida. But occasionally we call once back and forth on the phone or something. and she is, she is actually my father’s daughter she is not my mother’s daughter. YAX: Mm ROBSON: and she was given up for adoption by her birth mother. And the thing about it is, is that she lived right here in Grand Rapids for a nber of years, and I even knew some of the same people she did. then my two older sisters, one lives in, in Hudsonville, the other one has passed away. But, they were my mother’s daughters. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: and then my two younger sisters and myself we all had the same mother and father. And so there’s quite an intersession of families in there. my, my sisters, the two older sisters they’re father was in vaudeville. and he knew all of the big names in vaudeville. But, I, I tried to talk to my oldest sister and she, about what, and she was pretty young then so she didn’t, she couldn’t tell me a whole lot about them. Which I, I found, which too bad. Because a lot of the people that, that he knew, I mean I’ve heard them myself you know. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: And some of them might be even heard, they’re, they’re entertaining you know. Fred Allen for one. Jimmy Durante for another. YAX: Oh wow. ROBSON: and a lot of the people that went through vaudeville George Burns a lot of the bands, I don’t remember all of the band people, but he, he, he knew a lot of the musicians at that time too. so he, he had you know, quite some connections. And, so it would have been, I wish I could have gotten or my sisters would have gotten more information you know, but that’s the way it goes. But just knowing that, that they knew some of the, some of the people that were the starters of the new, YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: Business of show business is quite, quite a shock when I knew about it you know, and I found it to be quite quite nice. quite interesting. but the family as a whole, my family, myself I’m middle class, by no means am I rich. I got some money yeah, I worked for a long time to get that money but I got some money. I have two daughters that I, I help out quite a bit. I would have had more money if I didn’t have to do that, [laughter] but, but I consider myself the dad and that’s what I have to do. You know, I have to help my family. I’m divorced. My, my ex wife’s family is all middle class farmers by nature most of them. They were Dutch they can, they can trace themselves to Dutch immigrants, from from Holland. I don’t know a lot about them. I just know that, I know her mother and father’s backgrounds a little bit. And we had a lot in common, you know as far as the background and stuff goes. her brothers were very smart, all of them. her sister who had a birth defect but it didn’t get in the way of raising three boys, and teaching school. she was a very good schoolteacher she retired from the white hall Montague area. and Page 10 �she just passed away here a few months ago. But the boys, one of her sons is extremely smart and he has a very good job writing programs for computers. He’s self-employed. she has another son that is, he is my daughters cousins that he lives in Florida with his wife. She is into the medical you know like elderly, helping the elderly you know as a nurses, as a nurse. and David is a, is very handy with his hands. He can do a lot of things, but, he suffers severely from arthritis. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: Which is too bad. and their youngest brother lives up around the White hall area, even today and he has a good job at some company up there, I don’t know which one it is anymore but he has a good job and his wife is a schoolteacher. their they have some other cousins that, one of them I forget what he does but he’s got a, it’s a good white collar job, it’s in an office. He has another one that, that is very artistically inclined. For a long time he went out to Connecticut or somewhere, yeah I think it was Connecticut, he built furniture. YAX: Oh. ROBSON: as a request. You know specialties. You know one of a kind. U, he built some stuff for his mother and dad that was incredible. Just, and he, he graduated from what’s that design school here in Grand Rapids? YAX: Kendall ROBSON: Kendall. and he’s the one that doesn’t let any grass grow under his feet. [laughter]. He’s something else. [Interruption]. ROBSON: Sorry bout that. YAX: it’s ok [laughter]. ROBSON: but he, and he, he is moved back to Michigan now but he still works, or no he still lives out east but he, someplace, I don’t know. But anyway he still works with furniture, but he works more on a, on a, in a design portion of it now rather than a building part of it. And then their sister, their oldest sister, she graduated from nursing school and then she went on and got a masters degree in nursing I guess it was and then she, she does transcripts at home. taking and correcting insurance papers and, and medical papers so that the wording and stuff, and she does that at home. she has, she was married, she had two boys and now I think she’s got a, I don’t know if she’s married again but, I know she has a new, a new friend. but her mother and dad, he worked for Consumers, and Mary was a nurse. YAX: Wow. ROBSON: So you know, but, out of all of, all of these people that are, I’m related to, we’re all pretty much at the same level as far as we’re in the middle class I got one cousin that plays in a Dallas symphony but what his younger brother does I have no idea. but I know he has, he has a family and he works but I don’t know where it is. I’ve had I can’t say that, that they’re, there isn’t, I know there’s some Page 11 �parts of my family that have money, but they don’t flaunt it. They don’t you know, they use it for whatever and but, we all pretty much stay about the same and I, I tribute that to the way that most of us were brought up. We were brought up in that middle class white neighborhood you know. I remember going down to Ann Arbor visit my sister down when my brother in law was going to the University of Michigan. and that’s where I came in contact with my first black people on a daily basis. There was kids down there that we used to play on the playground with all the time. Come time to go home they’d go their way, we’d go ours. Next day we’d come back, and we’d play on the playground. YAX: How old were you at this point? ROBSON: At that time I must have been 8, 9 years old. but, I never, I don’t ever remember racial things being spoken in my family. or disregard for anybody. we had my, my, one of my older sisters, one of her best friends was a black girl that lived out West of, out off of West Chicago Drive. The street isn’t even there and neither are any of the 6 houses that were on that street. [laughter]. But they all used to be, when I, when I delivered the paper, the Grand Rapids press, they were all my customers. And I knew this family really well. They were really nice people. so you know, racially I didn’t, I was really quite ignorant about what was going on around me. we had some black kids at school. I didn’t, one of them was in the band played a saxophone I thought, and he was really good. I don’t, I remember when we had minstrel shows at, in high school. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: but I don’t remember being actively aware of racial discrimination in those days. it just never occurred to me. or I don’t, and I don’t know if my parents were or not. I don’t know cuz I, like I say it was never and all my sisters and everything it was never discussed. They had, they had black, a black girlfriend. She, she had been to our house so it, I, that portion of relationships never bothered me until I got to be much older. then I found out what was going on and studied it more and, and I think I waffled between being a racist and a non racist like everybody else did and started, until I got to the point where I could really start rationalizing what was going on and so, well for heavens sakes all this time I thought we were already equal. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: And it didn’t turn out that way obviously. Ha still hasn’t as far as that goes. But it, it was, it was I mean I played football with, with guys that were, we played against at the time we played against Reese Puffer from Muskegon area. YAX: Yeah ROBSON: And at that time Reese Puffer was primarily a black school. It was another football team. We didn’t care what color they were, we went out there and played football. YAX: So you had a mixed high school? Or ROBSON: Yeah it was. It only, was only one black family but they had I think they had, it was the Jones family. They had a daughter, and I think the two boys. Page 12 �YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: And that was primarily it. Now the school is, is integrated with Hispanic, black, everything now. I think. I don’t know, I haven’t been over there in years but, it’s pretty much integrated to, to all of that today, that, a lot like I said earlier a lot of that, that area now is Hispanic and black mix. so that’s, that’s in the school over there now but my kids are, are both of my daughters went to Rogers and they, that was a mixed school. and I don’t know that they had a lot of problems there. Matter of fact one of the stars of the Rogers football team when Becky was a senior was a black kid. YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: and, and I know that, that he was, he was thought of very highly by everybody. I don’t know if it was because, if it was more of his talents or whatever, but he was a good kid. I mean I met him. I talked to him. He was a good kid. We had, then both of my daughters were in the band and they had mixed races in the band. and the black kids that they had in the band, I, were really good people. matter of fact I was in the band in high school, I played football, and ran track and stuff, and, but we had a, I remember one time we had three rivers band came up here. and we were gonna march in the tulip festival and enter into a competition at the, the Holt College football field over there after the parade and they were too. And it just so happened that we found out later on that we were both in the same flight. And but they needed, they were gonna come up here and they played a concert at our school and they, they were a pretty good-sized band, and they needed places to stay. Well at that time we had a house trailer YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: For going camping with and we had all kinds of room. I mean that house that my parents lived in was pretty close to a hotel [laughter]. I mean we had, I don’t remember how many kids we had there. But three rivers had several blacks in their, in their band. And some of them didn’t come up here YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: But one of them did and he stayed with my parents. they didn’t have an assigned family for him and my mother says he will stay with us, and he did. The kid was more fun than you could shake a stick at. He played piano by ear, YAX: Wow. ROBSON: And my mother had a piano in the house so we had a great time. We had all of these kids, all of these girls, we had some of the, some of the kids from my daughter, er my sisters classes along with these girls, you know to help show em things and we had a great time. and this, out of all the kids that came up here the black boy was the only one that came over to my mother and father and hugged my mother and shook my fathers hand and thanked them for the hospitality. The rest of them said thanks but it was like you and I would say thanks to somebody. YAX: Right. Page 13 �ROBSON: But he went out and he, he emotionally got involved with them by shaking their hands and hugging my mother. And that was quite a bit. Quite something. but it still didn’t, it didn’t dawn on me personally that there were still problems. YAX: Yeah ROBSON: You know. Until we got into the what, the ‘60’s and stuff when the marches and things started to take place and, and it, it, it came around then and I was, by that time I was in the service and that. But we didn’t even seem to have that much problem in the service. [clears throat]. Our ship when I was aboard ship, we had blacks and Hispanics, and whites, YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: And Jews, and everybody else. We’re all kinda you know, here’s Heinz 57 variety and we had one, one goal and that was to protect the United States. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: You know. And so I didn’t think too much of it. I didn’t really didn’t think too much of it until after, actually I came home from California. Is when I seem to, maybe because it was, more people were talking about it. I had a supervisor at work make, make a, a remark one time in a meeting about equality and he said that in a meeting that he was in someone asked that if if I was a, if we were asked to work with a black guy you know that’s the way it had to be but they said what if a black guy refuses to work with a white guy. And my supervisor said well then you discuss it, and he used the n word. And and that was the first time that I can honestly say that I got kicked between the eyes when that, when I really started to pay attention to what was going on. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: but even then I can't say that, that we had a problem with it blatantly, in other words out in the open, but it was there. it was obvious. Certain things that would happen at work you could see it. But what you did is like everybody else at the time, you just went about doing your job and let, YAX: Yeah ROBSON: Kind of hope that if you closed your eyes to it, it’d go away, you know. YAX: So how old were you when you went into the service? ROBSON: 18. YAX: So just right after high school? [Mood changes with change of topic from childhood to military] ROBSON: Yeah, yeah. I, I went in, I went, well, I was, yeah, yeah cuz I graduated on my 18th birthday, so I I went to J C for a short time to the first marking period. Well I played football down there too and then the grades came out and then I decided I wasn’t really going to be much good at college [laughter], at Page 14 �this point in time so, a friend of mine he and I, and he, I used to run against him in track. He went to Rogers but he was a friend of mine. [clears throat]. And we went down and signed up in the navy together. YAX: Why did you choose the navy? ROBSON: Well the Air Force wouldn’t take us cuz they wanted college education, YAX: Mmm ROBSON: And neither one of us wanted to be a ground pounder and neither one of us wanted to be a marine, so we just decided we’d go in the navy. [laughter]. And when we talked to the navy recruiter he made good on some things that we could go to school and stuff and get some education there too also. Not realizing that what he meant was they were navy schools for navy work. But still, they were good schools and he, he guaranteed that to us. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: And the other ones didn’t do that. So, with the exception of the Air Force that they wanted you to have a four-year degree. But, and I understand. But, so we went in the navy. He ended up on nuclear submarines. YAX: Ooh ROBSON: on the Polaris submarines and I ended up on the ships that look for submarines [laughter]. And so that’s the way, and you know I got, I got a lot of electronic schools and training while I was in the service leadership schools and stuff like that, that were valuable for military and stuff. and then and he got a lot of computer training, working with the, the polar, Polaris missiles and stuff. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: So he, he had he had a good education and I, and I got a good background to do what I did when I came back and joined a phone company. And he, he ended up last I knew about Ron, he was working for IBM. Now where he is today I don’t know. I haven’t, I haven’t heard from him in a long, long time. YAX: So how long did you serve in the navy? ROBSON: 4 years. 4 years active duty and then 2 years in the reserves but that was inactive reserve so I didn’t go to meetings or anything. YAX: Oh ok. ROBSON: The contract that I signed was a 6-year contract so I had to, I had to decide how, what I wanted to do you know. YAX: So that was early ‘60’s? ROBSON: That was 1962 through 64 was my active duty, Page 15 �YAX: So nothing, ROBSON: So I was officially out of the army, er out of the navy in 1966. In February ’66 is when my, is when my obligation to the navy ended. YAX: So there was nothing going on then was there? like, ROBSON: Yeah, there was. YAX: Was there, was there Korea or Vietnam? ROBSON: well I was in when, when Kennedy was killed, YAX: Oh! ROBSON: Matter of fact we were out in the pacific on an operation when the word came over that Kennedy had died and had been killed, had been assassinated and that a radio tower had been blown up in Arizona. And the, the group that we were working with were given immediate orders to head for the Panama Canal. YAX: Ooh. ROBSON: And we just made a u-turn and headed straight south. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: by the time we got on station and got everything organized and everything, word had come that there was a single person that shot Kennedy and that that person had been killed. and then, but they, what we did is they asked us to stay on location for I think it was 32 hours, 2 days roughly. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: A little over 2 days, day and a half, something like that. And so we did. And then we went back to our exercises and stuff. But, we immediately set to getting the ship war ready. Cuz we, no we didn’t have any, you know, the, the group did not know all of the details and so it just became straight go to this and be ready for anything. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: So that’s what we did. And that was kind of nerve-racking. but the ship that I was on had been blown up during world war II, I mean it had hit a mine so. But it was ok. It floated. [laughter]. But YAX: You’d think they’d get new boats for that. ROBSON: Yeah. No they rebuilt this one. [laughter]. Put a new bow on it and everything. But yeah that was and then I think, [pause], I was stationed in Pearl Harbor when the first rangers quote advisors went to Vietnam. YAX: Mm hmm. Page 16 �ROBSON: These guys were, were something else. They were, they were, I remember seeing some of them go over on the, on the beach of liberty and stuff and you could comb your hair in the buttons on their, their uniforms. These guys were spit and polished. And they never went anyplace alone. There was at least two or maybe three of em together at all times. YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: but they were, they were the first Green Beret’s that went over there and we, I was, at the time I was stationed at the submarine base and 5:00 in the morning you’d hear those clowns running through the base [makes sounds to imitate the running], you know doing their calsenic’s or running through the base. But, they were good guys. They really were. All of them were, had to rank a sergeant. YAX: Mm ROBSON: And but they were really good guys. Yeah, you go to talk to these guys and you could talk to them anytime you wanted to, you know. if we’d meet, if we’d meet them on the, on the beach or something we’d sit there and I’d, I don’t know about the guys with me but I always liked talking to them, finding out where they were from and stuff. And, these guys were, were good guys. They were they knew that, where they were going, they knew what their job was gonna be and, and they knew that some of them probably wouldn’t come home. But they they were really good people. and they were very military people. I’ll say that much for them. [laughter]. But they were, their uniforms were spotless. I mean absolutely spotless. You couldn’t find a lint on their uniforms anyplace. Their boots, you could see your face in them, in their boots. YAX: My goodness. ROBSON: But they were, they were really, really squared away people. and they didn’t get in any trouble nobody gave them any trouble either. but they were good people. YAX: So you said you were in, ROBSON: I was stationed in, YAX: California? ROBSON: California when, when Kennedy got killed and I was stationed in Hawaii when Vietnam started. YAX: Now did you ever have to go over to Vietnam? ROBSON: No. No. No. when I was in Hawaii we went to what we called west pack. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: Which was Western Pacific and that included a 6 month tour over there where we would go to, where did we go? We went to the Philippines, we stopped at the Philippines. We stopped at Hong Kong and then Japan. And and then back home to Hawaii. Well, I was also in when they did the atomic bomb test. When I was stationed in Hawaii they did the atomic bomb test in the South Pacific and blew up an island. Page 17 �YAX: Did you get to see it? ROBSON: Oh yeah. That is one thing that having seen an atomic bomb go off, is that I don’t ever, ever, ever want to see anyone, another one go off. I saw 2 or 3 of them go off and the best place to be if one goes off is right there underneath it because you won’t even know what hit you. It’ll, you’ll be a cinder in a blink of an eye. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: [pause]. The first one we saw was set off at night and we were, I don’t know how far away we were. I know we were beyond the horizon. Horizons are 10 yard, 10 miles. YAX: Ok. ROBSON: Cuz that’s, the earth curves every, about every 10 miles. And, when that mushroom cloud came up over that horizon, first of all it was one of the most spectacular, and beautiful things I ever saw in my life. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: The colors in it were so vivid, it was just hard to explain. And then you think about, that was the energy that was released, I mean that wasn’t all the energy that was released. That’s just the energy that burn up. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: it was scary. It really was. It was scary. they dropped, the biggest one that they dropped turned out some of the lights in Honolulu, from the flash. It was in the newspaper out there that, that some of the traffic, er some of the lights were affected by it, which is incredible that man could make something like that. And the last one that, that went off they dropped from a B 52, and it went off 500 feet above the ground. YAX: hmm. ROBSON: And, when they let us come out topside it looked like daylight but, it was green. The, the color was green. Cuz it was overcast. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: And it actually was about 4:30 in the morning. [laughs] YAX: Wow. ROBSON: There wasn’t supposed to be any sun. And then it slowly faded away, and I mean really, it was, it faded away so slowly that your eyes didn’t really realize what was happening. YAX: Mm hmm. Page 18 �ROBSON: until all of a sudden it was dark again. And, we were quite a ways away from that but the first one was enough for me. I, I know, I know I’ve, I’ve thought about it many time. About an atomic bomb, and every time I see the ones that were dropped during World War II I, this is gonna be hard to explain but I, I think how lucky the people were that were at ground zero versus the people that were 10, 15, 20 miles away. YAX: Right. ROBSON: Because those people are still suffering YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: From the radiation burns and stuff. [phone call] YAX: So why were they setting them off, I mean if it was after World War II? ROBSON: In World War II they were setting them off to end the war. YAX: Right. ROBSON: They were setting them off to make the Japanese surrender really. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: Because if the allies had invaded Japan the loss of life would have just been catastrophic. And, Truman made the decision to drop the bomb, and they dropped the first one but the Japanese wouldn’t give up so they dropped the second one, and the Japanese instantly decided that enough is enough. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: And that’s why. And then, in the sixties when they were doing it, when they were testing them, it was because it was before the nuclear test ban treaties and stuff went in. YAX: Oh, OK. ROBSON: So everybody was testing. And then we tested some out in Utah and some of the other places in the silos, and in underground bunkers. They were blowing them up under there. But there underground, less radioactivity was released into the air. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: And they dropped a couple of hydrogen bombs also. But the atomic bomb, people talk about it like it’s a pill. And it is. It is a very deadly pill. Like I say, the best place to be if one goes off is right at ground zero. Because at least it will be over for you, but the people who are out at the fringes will suffer for years and years and years. As a matter of fact, the one island, Christmas Island, out there where they had people that used to live, and they moved the people off the island to another island. And they Page 19 �won’t let them go back there because it’s still radioactive. And the half-life of radioactivity is twenty-five thousand years. That’s the half-life. So when you reach twenty-five thousand years, that’s half-life you’ve another twenty-five thousand for another half-life, and another twenty-five thousand for another half-life. In other words, nobody will live long enough to see that radioactivity be nothing. YAX: Wow. ROBSON: That’s why it’s so dangerous, that’s why it’s terrible. Nasty, nasty stuff. But yet, you can harness it and do good things with it. But at the same time it’s just [moment of silence] Yeah every time I think about it I don’t wanna see one go off. YAX: So do you disagree with the decision to drop them on Japan, or what are your thoughts on that? Since you’ve seen what it can do. ROBSON: Well, what I saw in the sixties, that one bomb was more powerful than both of those put together in Japan. However, the bomb that they dropped on Japan wouldn’t fit in this room. YAX: Right. ROBSON: It was hungous. Because of all of the electronics and everything that had to go inside of this, in order to set it off and to get the chain reaction going inside of it. And those bombs never touched the ground. They went off above the ground. Because it sent the force down and then the shock waves went out. YAX: Oh, OK. ROBSON: And everything went with it. I mean that’s why, if you’ve ever seen some of the videos from the cameras where they had a simulated village, and they dropped on and it looks like a wind storm. And that’s all of the radioactivity, carried with all of the power of this thing. And, it just blows things over. I guess, I mean I was just a child at that time, when they dropped the bomb. I know that I had a brother-in-law that was in World War II, I had an uncle that was in during World War II, both of them came home. My uncle trained pilots, even though he was an enlisted man, he trained pilots. In propeller planes, because they didn’t have jets to speak of. And my brother-in-law worked in an ammunition depot. Well he only had one eye, he had a glass one. He got shot by his dad hunting, it was a hunting accident. And he accidentally got shot by his dad and it put his eye out. So they couldn’t send him overseas so they kept him on, and I had a brother-in-law who served in Korea, and he was on a gun crew. He was a spotter for a gun crew. They were all killed except him and the other guy who was him down below. And they said he was a different person when he came home, cause I didn’t know him previously. I had a brother-in-law who was in the air force during Korea. But he had a desk job. But it was handling important stuff. And I had a brother-in-law who was in during Korea, or just towards the end of Korea. And he was at a supply depot, because that’s what his background was in. And he was good at it and they needed people who were good at that for logistics and stuff. My cousin, that I told you about from high school, he was an officer in communications and he had a top secret clearance. And when Vietnam broke out he was called back to active duty. And that was when he retired, he was from the Navy. These guys, none of them had, none of them, witnessed an atom bomb. I don’t know all Page 20 �the truth about the atom bomb in World War II. I do know that one of the biggest reasons was to end the war, they knew it would end the war. It killed thousands of people, innocent people. And it maimed even more. Ground zero is still there, they haven’t restored it. It looks just like it does in the pictures. It did end the war that’s what they wanted them to do. That’s what both bombs did. They ended the war. One of the stories was that because the allies were getting closer and closer to Japan, they had pretty well beat up their air force, and had pretty well beat up their navy. But they had hundreds of thousands of people that they could put in as infantryman. And the casualties to invade Japan, like I said, based on history, would have been catastrophic for both sides. It probably would have gone on longer, obviously, if they hadn’t dropped the bomb. But the allies probably would have won out. Because we had everything the Japanese didn’t have. We had more resources than they did. Based on history, I didn’t have to make that decision, but I’m sorry, to a point, that it was the United States that used it the first time, but it was the United States that used it the first time. Because if any of these other dictators or countries that have or want to build a nuclear bomb want to see what it does, look at the films. As far as a nuclear proliferation goes, I agree with that. I mean we have guns that can shoot an atomic bomb shell fifty, sixty miles or a hundred miles. I mean it’s stupid. We got ships that can launch thirty-two missiles. Each one of them could be equipped if we had to. It’s stupid, what do you gain by blowing up half the world? Then you can’t live in it anyway. You know? So you go the biggest and the loudest toys, big deal. I don’t see a single conqueror that wanted to rule the world ever succeed. I don’t think any of them succeeded. And had they, the Roman Empire was probably the closest anybody came because they controlled so much of Europe. And look what happened, they folded from the inside. The British Empire, for years the sun never sat on the British Empire. It does now. YAX: [laughs] ROBSON: Because most of those countries are now independent. So you don’t gain anything by ruling other people. I don’t see any positive stuff coming out of it. All I can see, is thank God that the bombs that we did drop are not the bombs we have today. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: So you know we got ships floatin’ out there all over the world. We got airplanes, we got so many ways of delivering atomic weapons. Just conventional bombs, for crying out loud, will kill hundreds or thousands of people. We don’t need atomic weapons to do that. And the fact that people, Japan is a good example of that when they’re, when that powerhouse got hit by the tsunami. We really don’t know all there is to know about atomic energy. We know it can be useful. But at the same time, it’s kinda like how long before it turns around and bites you. It’s kinda like a rattlesnake, you can pick it up for a long time but eventually you’re gonna get bit. And then you hear that the United States has one hundred and four of them built over faults, and they knew the faults were there when they built them. What does this tell you? You know? The newest one that was built, that I know of, in Michigan was up north near Charlevoix. What is it Flat Rock or whatever they call it? Little Rock. The other one, they tore it down because it was too small to serve the area, plus it was one of the first ones built. And it was falling apart anyway. So they built a newer one, bigger one, more efficient one, to feed a bigger area up there. A B-52 crashed in Lake Michigan, making a bomb run. On that one up there. Strategic air command used to practice bomb runs, and it crashed up there off of Lake Michigan. The said there Page 21 �were no nuclear weapons on board that plane. Nobody ever bothered to argue about it. But they did get all the weaponry off the plane. Even though it was laying in the water. So they’re vulnerable, you can’t protect them all. South Haven, for crying out loud, it’s built right on the beach for Pete’s sake. YAX: [laughs] ROBSON: The reason why is it was built so close to the water was just for that reason, it was close to the water. YAX: Right. ROBSON: They could pump the fresh water in, keep it cool, pump the hot water back out. Well they’re doing the same thing with the power plant over by Grand Haven. The Conser’s plant over there, it’s a coal operated plant, but they’repumping water in, and they’repumping water out. And it’s changing the environment in the Great Lakes. You have the big one up by Ludington up there, where they pump all of the water up into the reservoir, which is humongous, it’s one giant lake. But it goes up through big screws, kills all kinds of fish. And then when they want to generate electricity they release it and let it flow down, spin the turbines and generate electricity. We have power that comes from up there. So we got a lot of things we got to try and answer. But nuclear bombs are probably the one answer I don’t want to see anybody use. YAX: So what are your thoughts compared to when you went into the service to now, on the U.S. as a country? Did you have more patriotism when you went into the service, and then lost it as the U.S. has developed? ROBSON: No. YAX: Same thing? ROBSON: I don’t feel any different. I mean, it’s like anything I’ve done in my life, there are always things that I don’t like. Decisions that people have made that I don’t like. When you’re in the military you may not like the decisions, but you kind of, sort of, have no choice but to follow the laws. YAX: OK. ROBSON: And especially if you’re in the navy, the shortest distance to land from that ship is ten miles at any given time. And it is usually straight down. So you don’t have a lot of choice[Both laugh.] You know? But, I get very upset when I see Americans destroy the American Flag. I get very upset when I see Americans cuss the government. I get very upset when I see people, in our own country, disrespect our president and even our congress. And I don’t like anything that’s going on right now, but that doesn’t mean I have to disrespect the people that are there. And I probably do. [Both laugh.] By some of the things I say, you know? But, basically it’s not the people, it’s the position that they hold is what deserves the respect, you know? The president of the United States, that job doesn’t come with a hand book. Congress, to be a senator doesn’t come with a handbook. To be a representative doesn’t come with a handbook per say. But, what it comes with is an expectancy to be an adult at all times. Page 22 �YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: You know? And to understand, to make it a point to understand what the constitution says what you can do and can’t do, what the laws read. There was a discussion the other night on T.V. about when Ford pardoned Nixon. I understand why he did it, I didn’t agree with it, but I understand why he did it. The thing is, is that there is nobody that I know of, in this country, that’s a citizen or a non-citizen, that is above any of those laws in this country. I don’t care how much money they have, or how little money they have, nobody is above the laws of this country in my opinion. And I feel the same way as I always have, it’s my country, if I want to kick it I’ll kick it, but at the same time, don’t try and take it away from me. And that’s kind of the way I felt when I was in the service, it’s my ship, I live on it. And I’ll fight with the guys aboard my ship, but if you fight with one of the guys aboard my ship, you’re going to fight with me. YAX: Right. ROBSON: I think that’s the way it should be. I don’t expect everybody to like what’s going on, but I expect everybody to be respectful of the people. Just like I don’t like what the cops are doing, or the local governments are doing about these people that are, peacefully, demonstrating. Using tear gas and things to get people to move. I also don’t think that if they were told “you can’t be in this section of town because it hinders the business of the overall town.” YAX: Like downtown? ROBSON: Yeah. I don’t think they, well I mean, in some places like in Chicago they used tear gas and stuff. YAX: Oh, like the recent protests? ROBSON: Yeah. They used the recent protests because they I agree that there was a lot more that should have been done, when the crash came. There is obviously some things that were not done according to Hoyle. They may not have been outright crimes. But they definitely should have been looked into, to make sure that what they did was out of stupidity, and not out of want and disrespect for the law. That any one of those CEO’s, or CFO’s, companies, any one of them I think should have been taken out of office. And I think some of those big banks should have been broken up. They broke up AT&T because they were afraid of AT&T, they were making a billion dollars every quarter. They were huge, and they broke them up. But, they made kind of a mistake. They made seven AT&T’s. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: And they didn’t put anything in the restrictions about getting back together. In other words, buying each other out to make them bigger. And that’s what has happened, you don’t have the seven operating companies, per say, anymore. Ameritech, or SBC as they were then, bought AT&T for sixtyfour billion dollars or something like that, it was a steal. Because we paid four hundred million dollars, or billion dollars whatever it was, for Southeast Bell, just to get the cellular part of it. Because that’s the way the deal was. And also, the CEO, at the time, of SBC was a true in the wool AT&T man. And at the time the present management of AT&T was running them into the ground, and he couldn’t stand it. And Page 23 �that’s why we bought AT&T. And that still isn’t complete, that’s still going on. In fact, I used to laugh when I looked at my pay check because it said up in the corner “Michigan Bell”. [Both laugh] And it was drawn out of a bank in Louisiana. But what it comes down to is that, all of the franchises and stuff were in Michigan Bell’s name. Even though you change the name of the corporation, you still have all of these individual things that don’t change because it would cost too much and take too much, you wouldn’t be gaining anything anyway. But, I always used to laugh and say “ah I’m still working for Michigan Bell”. YAX: So, going back to like service and stuff, a couple years it was really big, people protesting service peoples funerals. ROBSON: Well, that particular group, I don’t know if they had any of their members die in the service or if their members had objections to going into service, I don’t know. YAX: Well what they were protesting… ROBSON: I didn’t agree. I knew what they were protesting. They were saying God was allowing Americans to die because of homosexuality and other things, but I think homosexuality was the biggest thing they were using at the time, or was one of the things. And I’m thinking to myself, “what’s that got to do with it?” But, I don’t, as far as the first amendment goes, the freedom of speech and the right to assemble, yeah OK do it. But remember that you and I have a right to bury your dead in a peaceful matter, as much as I have a right to demonstrate. But, even if I demonstrate I don’t have the right to interfere with what you do. Because then I have crossed a line. Or vice versa. And when you’ve crossed that line, then I think it’s time that you, that one should have legal sanctions. I don’t care how much noise they make, as long as, if they have got to stay on that side of the side walk. I don’t like it, I don’t like it at all. I think it shows total disrespect, and I think what it is, it’s one man it’s another Waco, Texas all over again. The way I look at it. YAX: another what? ROBSON: Another Waco. Where they had the one guy, he got all of these people in there and then the house caught on fire and they all burned up; in Waco, Texas. YAX: When was that? ROBSON: Just, not too long ago. A few years ago. YAX: Oh, I don’t watch the news very often [laughs]. ROBSON: I forget what this guy’s name was. But anyway, he thought that he was the messiah or something, was God or something, and he got all of these people in there and all of these girls in there and was having relationships with young girls, and all the children that were in there. But they had fifty caliber machine guns and they were armed to the hilt. Well I don’t know that the people in this church are that way, but this is the same guy that was going to burn the Quran. This group that’s been protesting the cemetery, or the funeral, and he was the same guy that was going to burn the Quran. And he didn’t do it. I think there was a lot of pressure put on him not to do it, and because he thinks that these people are all heathens and everything else. I don’t agree with the war, I didn’t agree with it Page 24 �when Bush started it. I thought it was a case of trying to save face because his father was, when his father was in war he was forced out, you know, and he didn’t finish the job or whatever.And personally I’m getting a little sick and tired of the U.S. going into these limited wars and letting the people in Washington run them. It has been that way since Korea. Truman wouldn’t let MacArthur go beyond the thirty-eight parallel, which divides the country so we ended up with two Koreas. And in Vietnam, Johnson didn’t want to blow up the country and go after it full hawk the way they should have. And that was an unpopular war just like the ones were going into now, the only difference is, is that were welcoming the soldiers back now with a little more enthusiasm and appreciation than we did for the guys and gals from Vietnam. And that’s too bad because I had some friends in Vietnam, and I know what they went through over there, I was glad they came home in one piece. YAX: Right. But I wish people would go back to the days of civility and honoring your neighbor. I know it sounds a little biblical, but it doesn’t take that much, it really doesn’t. I don’t like everything that I do. This sounds like a self-incrimination, which it probably is, but if I haven’t hurt anybody when I did it, then I don’t feel too bad about it. Because most of the things I do, I do more to just break down some stress, it’s my way to deal with stress. And I figure if I go down I’ll take everybody with me, and we’ll all have a good time doing it. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: But I don’t like the way they did it, and you haven’t heard too much about them lately. But they’ve had some pretty serious losses filed against them recently here, and it has kind of quieted them down here. Kind of like the abortion issue I think is one that can really become a sticky wick. We got the law that abortion is legal. OK, fine. We’ve got laws that say that you can’t use federal government money. OK, fine. That’s the law. And now everybody else wants to add their two cents worth to it. Which, to me, is nothing more than duplication, and time wasted. I don’t agree with what happened out west, when that guy went into the church and killed that doctor. I don’t, I can’t even condone that. That guy had no right to take that doctor’s life. Just like I have no right to take yours or any other. I don’t believe that destroying a person’s private life by publishing their phone numbers and their address, and their children and everybody else. I don’t believe that’s the way to deal with an issue. These people are trying to put themselves above everybody else, using the old quotation, they’re holier than everybody else. And they’re not, they’re not different than you and me. They put their pants on one leg at a time, you know? So I don’t know where they get off trying to be so radical. In the paper, recently I read about a young boy, nineteen years old, killed an eighteen year-old. Because he thought that the eighteen year-old had taken advantage of his ex-girlfriend. So what does he do? He stabs the guys twenty-five times, but that isn’t what killed him. What killed him was when he cranked him in the head with a shovel. So what did the kid gain? Not a thing. Like the boy’s father said, “all you have to do is call the cops if that’s what you think”, it would have solved the problem. You know? Your family wouldn’t be feeling the way they do because you’re going to spend the rest of your life in prison, my family wouldn’t be without a son. And there’s a girl out there no that can’t feel too proud of herself, because of what he did. So there’s a minimum of three families that have been affected by this. Anytime the radicals decide to do something it is narrow, and I don’t think they look at it from a broad picture point of view. And I Page 25 �don’t think they intend to. Just like the animal rights people who burned down that laboratory in Michigan State a few years ago. That’s a crying shame they did that. They destroyed a lot of medical information. We were here to be put in charge of the animals, and whether it sounds right or wrong to use animals as guinea pigs, no pun intended. [Both laugh] I didn’t create the animals with some of the DNA that they’ve got in them, and that’s close to you and me. But, if it helps to make my life easier, and if one of those little critters dies, I’m sorry, but that little critter can take credit for saving a lot of lives. It might seem inhumane, but take one of those people and do one of those experiments on them once. And if they think it’s inhumane, look what they’d have to go through. And chances are, the human body being what it is, they’re not going to find a cure out of the human body anyway. YAX: Right. ROBSON: Although there are people out there that have certain strains of DNA in them that do have some positive things that could be used. I understand radicals have their place, they have their rights just like I do. But, I don’t agree with all that they do, especially when it comes to taking life. And when it comes to, I brought up about the abortion thing, I think that a woman should be able to go to her doctor, with her husband, and say, “We don’t want this baby. It wasn’t planned.” And it’s early enough, I think abortion would OK that way. And I think the husband should have a word in it as much as the wives do. And maybe that’s why so many men are the radicals, I don’t know. [Both laugh.] But, tomorrow my opinion of that could change, I don’t know. I’ve had sisters who have had miscarriages. My ex-wife had a miscarriage. I know what it did to my wife, mentally for a while. And, I know what it did to my sisters, mentally for a while. And, if they had, I know my sisters well enough, I don’t think they would have had an abortion if their child could have lived. I don’t think there was anything wrong with the child, it was just that their body wasn’t ready to have a child. I don’t know. And, in the case of nowadays, I think spina bifida is one of the things that if they catch it early enough in a fetus they can fix it, and the child will be born without it. That hole will be taken care of and the child will progress through pregnancy normally. I read that in the reader’s digest, or someplace, I don’t remember. But they can do that, if they know that the baby has that problem. And there’s other things that they can do with the fetus, that if they’re aware of it, they can fix it while it’s still in the mother’s womb. And the child will be born normal. One of the things with abortion is that people want a perfect child. When you decide to have a child you always flip a coin, and it always lands on the edge. It doesn’t land on heads or tails, it lands on the edge. And that is just the coin’s way of saying “I don’t know either.” You know? I remember when my wife was pregnant; they asked us, “what do you want, a boy or girl?” And we said that we didn’t care, as long as it was healthy. So we had two girls. Which just adds the toll up of people in my life that are female. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: So it doesn’t make a whole lot of difference. YAX: So you should understand women fairly well then? ROBSON: No I don’t. [Both laugh.] I sat one day and figured out all the women in my family and all the women on the outside of my family. And I sat there, looked myself right, square in the eye and said, “You know, I have absolutely no idea what women are about.” [Both laugh.] And I’m not going to lie, I don’t know. I mean I know some of the things that women like, but I don’t know what goes on in a Page 26 �woman’s body or in her mind. I know a lot of things that go on in a woman’s body because I went through it went I was married, and I have five sisters and two daughters; two mothers and two grandmothers. I mean, mother and mother-in-law. I can’t even count all the nieces I got. And all the young ladies in my life and all the young ladies that I’ve known up at Applebee’s, you being one. But, I don’t know there’s things about you ladies that I don’t know, and there’s things about you doctors don’t even know. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: So I don’t feel too bad. Sometimes it’s true, you can’t live with you and you can’t live without you. You know? And it works both ways. So there’s when women can’t live with men and there’s times they can’t live without them. Women can’t figure out men, and don’t feel bad because we can’t either. [Both laugh.] YAX: Alright last question; it’s kind of a big one. Looking back at your life what are some life lessons that you’ve come up with, and is there anything in your life you wish you could take back or do over. ROBSON: Oh boy. [Both laugh.] There are so many things that I would do over. But, I think [silence and indiscernible words]. I remember there was two young girls in my life who I really cared for. One of them got pregnant by another guy while we were going steady, so that hurt, and then another girl that I was going with, when I went into the service, I told her not to wait for me. Because I didn’t know where I was going to go, or when I was going to come home. I knew I was going to be in for four years, but that’s a long time to ask somebody to wait. And I wish that I had, in a roundabout way, I had asked her to stay for me. But I didn’t. And one of the mistakes I made was when I got married right after I got out of the service. And that was a bad mistake. I wasn’t any more ready to get married than the man in the moon. YAX: So you were twenty-two or twenty-three? ROBSON: Yes, I was around twenty-three, twenty-four somewhere around there. And that marriage ended in a divorce, I left her and came back here. I was single for four years, so I played the field quite a bit. That’s when I did a lot of stupid things. When I finally met my wife I thought, when I first met her I didn’t know she was married. She was going through a divorce and I didn’t know that, it was a couple of months before I found out. So we kind of played it sort of cool. I like her mom and dad. The amazing thing is that I knew one of her older brothers, I knew him from high school. YAX: And you guys met in California? ROBSON: No I met her when I came back here. YAX: Oh, OK. ROBSON: But I knew him from high school because I ran track against him. He went to Comstock Park. But my first marriage I did a lot of dumb things; a lot of dumb, stupid, immature things. And the best thing I did was when I left her, I did her a favor and I’m sure she knew that. And, for four years I just sat around, I kind of played the field, but I did a lot of thinking. In the meantime I had gotten a good job with the phone company. I was living at home, I was the only kid at home, both my younger sisters were married by then. I had a lot of time to think and do things on my own, and I decided it was about Page 27 �time to grow up a little bit. The military helped me a lot, to grow up, it did a lot of good things for me. But anything you do in life, I’m sure that if you meet any of your high school friends who didn’t go to college, you can feel a difference. You feel different. Not about them, but mentally you know there’s something different between the two of you. And that’s how I felt. So I made up my mind that I was going to do everything I could not to make the same mistakes that ruined my first marriage, when I married my second wife. And, I honestly, truthfully don’t know why she left me. Because I was working really hard not to be a pain in her neck, but I know I became one, just out of frustration. So we got divorced and we had the two girls. Well fortunately, the two girls, one was out of high school and I think on was a sophomore or a junior then. But one thing I learned about divorce was that the older the children are the harder it is on them, it makes no difference. It’s hard on young kids, but time will heal youngsters I think a little better. Unless there’s a lot of physical things involved, or a lot of abuse, physically or otherwise. I know a lot of the decisions my girls made was based on what they felt they had to make, because they didn’t know if they could trust my decision, or their mother’s. And I know, based on that, is partly why I do what I do today for my kids. But, it’s also because my mother and father never asked me any questions, they let me stay at home, they didn’t ask me why I broke up with my first wife, they didn’t make over demanding demands on me, they left their door open for me, and I have done the same thing for my girls. Up at Applebee’s I do a lot of listening, if you watch me, I’m not always talking. And I’m just watching and listening to what is going on around me, and it has helped me a lot. Knowing that the way they were talking is the way I was headed that same way so why don’t I change? Or, “I wonder if I was to ask this person a question, would I get an honest answer?” or “why don’t I just tell them I’m your friend and I’ll be here if you need me.” YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: I’m finding out that, as I get older, that means more than anything. And the mistakes I’ve made I can’t really correct them. But, I can do my damnedest to not make them again. And, sometimes I get a little carried away, but overall I try hard. That’s one of the reasons why I do some of the things I do in church. I like doing the sermons when they ask me to, I like doing the readings when it’s my turn. I don’t know if I like being on the church council or not. [Both laugh.] Because I was on it before and I found it to be a small, you know, it’s good, good things happen. And I’ve always said anybody that belongs to a church, should be involved on their church council somehow, if they want to know anything about their church. I’ve had a couple of pastors here that are good friends, one of them, his wife was a good friend of my wife’s. The pastor that’s in the nursing home right now, is a retired colonel from the army. He was a chaplain. I consider him a friend of mine and the present pastor we got is a friend of mine, I consider him a friend of mine. So I do like that, and it helps me sometimes to remember. YAX: Very cool. Well, thank you so much Bob. END OF INTERVIEW Page 28 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05e8e38e9243d22c5d94c0e2ddeab3b0.mp3 7228e6e9ba7e061ed824f60fca4ec970 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Robson_Robert Title A name given to the resource Robert Robson audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robson, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource LeMieux, Kyle Hengesbac, Amanda Yax, Tara Description An account of the resource Robert Robson is a military veteran who was born and raised in Grand Rapids. He signed a contract with the navy in 1962 and spent 4 years in active duty and 2 years in the inactive reserves. He has a lot of memories from his time in the navy and talked about his views on the military and being a veteran in the United States. Growing up in Grand Rapids he had a lot of stories about some of the things that have been changing in the area including diversity. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Veterans--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/549c5df124bc6cf7dcdc7b0bdc927b88.pdf 75a407b1116eb73b20a42e430a6b3c45 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Richard Robinson InterviewerCARBAJAL: Samantha Carbajal, Arianne Espiritu and Laura Wilusz Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/26/2011 Biography and Description Richard Robinson is a 26 year old homosexual who grew up in Clarkston, MI. He attended Oakland Community College from 2003-2005 and GVSU as an undergrad from 2005-2008. His undergrad was in Philosophy and anthropology. He is now a grad student studying public administration. He discusses his activesim with the LGBT community. Transcript CARBAJAL: Okay, my name is Samantha Carbajal and I’m here today, October 26th around 1pm with Richard Robinson... at Allendale, Michgan in Kirkhof and we’re here today to talk about Richard’s life here in Michigan.and then.. if you could just tell me about ..yourself? ROBINSON: Okay, do you want the general.. .. coming out “schpeil? “or to you want the the.. the the early details? later details? CARBAJAL: You can just start out with your name– ROBINSON: Just go for it? CARBAJAL: Birth.. parents.. ROBINSON: Sure! my name is Richard Robinson and I my parents are Kathleen Certell (sp?) and Brian Robinson.. ... I have 3 siblings.. a half older sister named Christina, whose 30, my younger brother– first younger brother is Robert, hes twenty.. four, and then my YOUNGER younger brother is 7.. had another kid after the divorce.. and I’m 26 and hopefully I got through there ... (to Samantha) again, just going through the schpeil? CARBAJAL: Yeah! ROBINSON:Does that work okay? CARBAJAL: However you feel comfortable ROBINSON: I knew.. for certain, that I was gay and that I knew what that was, when I was thirteen. But, when I was 5 years old, I remember I, I kissed a boy’s hand, like I had seen in all those Disney movies.. Page 1 �[pause] and when I.. finally found out what that was–what that meant–it was a 2 step process to me understanding what my life was gonna be.. It was, first, it was... ‘wow.. I’m gay’ and then immediately after that it was, “ohhh shit. I’m GAY.” So now I understood I was a part of this ‘group’ of people.. that would .. that face.. being ostricized.. and every time someone says that’s ‘bad’ or that’s ‘db’, they immediately say that’s ‘gay’ or ‘your a faggot’ and immediately that.. affected me.. like now I knew I was that thing that everyone was using to degrade other things... and between the ages of 13 to 17, when I finally came out, officially, I don’t remember much.. there’s.. just this blur of depression and everything that sucked... I remember the.. the really bad times. I don’t remember really any good times. unless they happened frequently, and then, they, they really didnt. I was going to come out at 16 years old. but that was the year my parents were going through with the divorce.. and.. when I heard that that was going to happen, I decided to stay in the closet another year.. pause.. and I told my mom after that was finalized the next ser.. about three days before my 17th birthday.. pause.. and just before my senior year of high school.. [clears throat] I got lucky in that in that senior year I didn’t LOSE any friends necessarily.. people started to look at me funny.. and .. but largely I was avoided.. and people didn’t mess with me anymore. I don’t know why, but they didn’t. I was severely bullied all through school before that year, then that last year when I came out and suddenly things got better somehow and i really don’t understand why. I– after high school Clarkston High School, [cough] I went to Oakland Community College in Auburn Hills where my GPA immediately jumped 1.4 points, from a 2.1 to a 3.5.... and in two years there, got my Associates of the Arts.. took anthropology and philosophy classes, computer programming everything I could grab.. to just.. fulfil the macro agreement and get my.. my gen. eds waved wherever I went to school.. and I heard about Grand Valley through a friend.. it looked like a calm, nice campus.. whereas I saw my sister go to MSU where I saw nothing but couch burnings.. riots.. and .. late night drunk calls from her attending keggers.. it wasn’t exactly the environment I was looking for for higher education... So I applied to Grand Valley, got in, I did a major here in undergrad for philosophy and anthropology.. in 3 years.. with an associates degree, so 5 years total for undergrad.. after that I–after that graduation I .. I was an archeologist for the forest service.. in Stanislows (sp?) National Forest.. which is.. a surrounding Groveland, California.. just ohh.. about 100, 200 miles in, not very far in from Nevada. Really close to the border.. right next to Yosemite.. and then I lived in San Francisco for a while! working in a publisher, then that fell through, and I moved to North Carolina where I worked as a bartender at various bars, restaurants, and strip clubs.. in North Carolina... that was fun.. af.. after that I.. found my way back to Michigan on on very little.. I had a car, that was falling to pieces.. it was duct taped together in 3 places.. .. by end.. I stayed with friends.. bounced around.. used tax return to pay rent for 2 months til i found a job at a milk factory.. lost that after a few months tried coming back to school.. didn’t work out.. got a job door to door and then 3 days before grad school started, my first semester of grad school, I got my letter of acceptance. that i was in. that that was wednesday.. on thursday i signed up for cla–I got financial aid. On Friday I signed up for classes and on monday night I was in class. my life has been by the seat of my pants, many times, but nothing says it more than 3 to 4 grad schools when I got in.. and I’m studying public administration, with an emphasis in non profit management and leadership.. so thats the general timeline of my life and education so far.. and the education really sticks out because I’m still in school! I’m 26 years old but I’ve been in school for 6 or 7 times as long as I’ve been out of school but going back.. a couple of things really stick out about being in the closet.. couple of things. One was when I was 15, about to turn 16.. [pause] same ser my parents- I think if was the Page 2 �same ser my parents decided to get the divorce, might have been the year before. So that might- would have been when I was.. about to turn 15, I was probably 14 years old, about to turn 15, I was at a Certell (sp?) family reunion. From my mom’s side, and I was .. a snot-nosed nerd at the time, and I had just gotten a new *cough+ video game.. a new thing.. and I brought the, the ‘game manual’ with me to the, to the.. reunion. I just wanted something to do with it, I didn’t want to be there, I wanted to be at home, playing. And so I brought the, the manual along. And its this.. dungeon crawling, demon slaying, thing.. so the, the pictures are pretty.. demonic.. in their art work, its pretty.. the classic, evil sense of Dante’s Inferno kind of thing, in the imagery. my great uncle Val, my mom’s uncle, comes over.. and he sees me in a black shirt, long-ish hair, reading this thing and he asks me if he, you know, if he could see that.. and he does, he takes it, and he looks ,WHAT- And then he goes ‘okay’ and he walks off, and apparently what he did was he went over to my mother, and he started describing this time how he and his church friends got together and got this kid who dressed in all black from the local high school. He might have been a relative or he might have been someone they knew, I don’t know. And they performed an exorcism on him.. sort of an ‘ad hoc’ exorcism.. and he offered my mother the same service. And at the time it was hilarious. Cause you know its just so ridiculous to me that he would do this. But later, upon reflection, I realized that that could have been so much worse had people known at that reunion that I was homosexual. and that scared me. And I suppose those are the things that keep people in the closet.. is that if you were out, and people knew, how much worse could it be? you know like, how lucky you are at times to be hiding. Cause otherwise you could’ve- I could’ve been in some bad situations, in high school and other times, even around family.. it could’ve been bad.As for Grand Valley, I never really had any bad experiences here.. except to say that I’ve been sneered at by Christian groups on campus sometimes.. kind of after well one I confronted the 7th Day Adventist group, so that was.. [laughs] that was fun.. but also, while walking between the blue arch, and the and in front of the arboret I was walking by one day with my silver bag that I had a pride thing on, and it was a- there were people around a table so I went over to see what was going on and I was like “oh, Christian group.. oooh don’t want anything to do with that!” Then the guy was like “nooo come on over!” and I was like “oh well alright” and I turned and I.. like the badge.. showed at him and the look he gave me was that of utter disgust was like alright yeah, made the right decision, I won’t go talk to those people. I’ll stay away from them, they don’t like me. I’ve gotten off quite lucky.. in my coming out experience. I didn’t lose anybody, I’ve never been the subject of violence, I’ve never been.. confronted, or torn down for it, not really anyway. There’s a couple of vague instances I almost remember but they’re not REALLY clear about what was going on anymore. .. and so I think one time I was I was having an argument with my sister, and I think there response to me, was something just to just shut me up was “Well at least I’m going to heaven.” and I believe that was a response to me being .. gay at the time. I think that’s what it was.. I couldn’t be certain.. but I didn’t spend the night at my house that night. I went to a friends house and stayed there. my good friend Tony. So, those kinds of things sort of stick out but I don’t really know if she, if she was saying that. I can’t say for sure, I believe she was, because I don’t know anything else that, within her strange theology, that that would cause her to say that to me. She’s since grown up a little bit, but... its still painful... So thatsCARBAJAL: So how did your parents react? Page 3 �ROBINSON: I told my mother after the divorce. I told her, and [recalls quickly something unintelligible] ..yeah because I told her, and then she told my dad during the divorce. That was kind of manipulative, I don’t know exactly why she did that.. other than she’s just a blabbermouth and told EVERYBODY. You know, once I told her then *snaps+ “oh off to the family!” Everybody knew. Her brothers, sisters, grandmy grandparents... everybody. and ... I sort of function the same way.. I, I don’t know how to react to things sometimes, so I tell the story to other people and see how they react. Just like to be sure I’ve gotten it correctly. [laughs] I get that trait from her.. But I di-didn’t talk to my dad about it for.. about 5 years... 5-6 years.. cause I didn’t talk to him about it til before I, until just before I went to California which was about 4 years ago.. yeah so about 6 years between telling my mom and talking to my dad about it, even though he knew.. and what I what I’m angry about still and what I haven’t really forgiven her for is that she took away my ability to talk to him about it. If I had gotten to break the ice with it and tell him, I could’ve done it. But it hanging over us now, being held over us, by like the .. it was something neither of us wanted to bring up. And so we were both sort of waiting for the other one to. So we had a.. a.. an okay relationship.. as much as you can.. being a kid, going through a divor- go, going through a parent’s divorce and blaming the one for it. Everybody in my family blamed my dad.. and I don’t really care anymore, but at the time it still was difficult to talk to them. Its not easy. and .. and if I could have, could’ve pressured myself into bringing it up and saying it so it just took telling and it would’ve, it would’ve happened like that, but I couldn’t do that because it was taken away from me. So it wasn’t a bad reaction.. it was unfortunate, and .. it wasn’t as good as it could’ve been. And a few things when wrong, but not so wrong that I was kicked out of my home. or so wrong that I lost family, or that I don’t talk to anybody anymore, but nope I still have everybody. Generally it took them a while to get over it. It takes them a while to get over the black thought that this one of their children isn’t going to provide them grand kids. There’s that. CARBAJAL: And you said you were.. bullied? ROBINSON: YeahCARBAJAL: Like throughout school? ROBINSON: Very badly, terribly, .. in middle school one day, ... people were handing out dollar bills for everybody who punched me.. they were PAYING others to hit me in the arm, through the halls of the school. And I never saw oh- and the only reason I knew that was happening was because, someone told me. So I don’t know how much money changed hands or exactly what happened, I just remember I got punched a lot in the arm in that hallway that day. CARBAJAL: And that was just becauseROBINSON: Just because! *claps+ just because I don’t know, they got a reaction outta me.. cause I cried.. I don’t really know. But .. my right arm specifically got punched a lot.. through middle school. And when I found out- that was spurred on the, when I found out that I was ge- that this needs to be not talked about. It just needs to be hidden as much as possible. .. and to never.. never ever mention it.. and it was actually kind of easy because I was a, I’m a.. a.. a bit of a nerd I hung out with people who were already ostracized.. were already not part of any ‘in’ group.. who were al- who were connected by the Page 4 �commonality of being out of other cliques and out of other groups of people. And so that made it easier to hide.. cause then I could just be seen as awkward. If I was just seen as awkward, people wouldn’t think, “Oh he’s not straight.” They would just think, “Oh he’s an awkward nerd..” And they did! And it worked. It wasn’t on purpose, that was just a fortunate thing.. and once I was surrounded by other people, the.. bullying kind of let up in high school, but not really.. Anytime where I could be isolated was a chance for me to get something, from somebody.. whether it was being jumped on.. in gym, people were jumping on my back and trying to... essentially ride my back. That happened a couple of times, in gym class. Or we were just looking for a way to be the funny guy at my expense. sss- looking at it from now it probably the character of most of it- someone looking to be the funny guy on my expense. CARBAJAL: And that all got better after you came out? Did it let up a little? ROBINSON: Yeah.. somewhat? I think some of it was.. I finally.. grew up.. and out.. and nearly 6 feet tall, rather broad shouldered.. you know.. I was just so- I was just physically larger than many other people who were bullying me before. And so I think that at least a little bit intimidated them. And.. I had lashed out a few times. its, it was, its tough in schools when they, when they have no.. no tolerance policies.. for fighting.. or for cursing of any sort. its just if your seen doing this you either get suspended or expelled. But when the bullying is subversive, and its minor, and button pushing.. they don’t need to be loud.. to get at you. They don’t need to be noticeable to make it affective. But the, inevitably, the boiling over, the lashing out, the.. the steam from the kettle.. That is always loud. The person who is finally- they’ve been pushed too far and need to lash out a little bit. I once flipped a kid out of my .. seat, in Japanese class, because it was MY seat, next to MY friend and.. he was not there for any good reason. And so I flipped the desk over and leaned in really close and told him to fuck off. And.. incidences like that, where I was able to do those things.. to provide enough of a physical presence that I shouldn’t be messed with on certain levels. That was more protective than anything else. People only mess with you to the point where they think that you won’t fight back. As soon as you do, they, they let off. But, the person who’s fighting back has to.. be just as subversive or just as quiet about it, as the other way. So I think theres this underground of.. of barely restrained violence at times. In in when you’re being bullied, theres just, you really, you want to! You want to get it to stop, whatever it takes to get it to stop. Cause those years, between 13 and 17 I was near suicidal. I didn’t want to go out, I didn’t wanna be around people, I... [pause] I did things just to keep up appearances but there were multiple incidences where .. again the bad things are all that I remember, where I just.. I was close. I was close to the edge. And the only thing that kept me from it was I knew that it would hurt my family and friends more than if they knew I was a homosexual. That would be a greater pain, and a burden, than, than knowing. And that was it. That was the only thing that kept me from it. Wasn’t hope for a brighter future, wasn’t thinking that my life would get better later on.. It was only that I would cause more pain by not being here., Than than I would be, than I am suffering myself. I didn’t want to inflict that on anyone else. So I, I took it as my ‘cross to bare’ so to speak. And I didn’t burden anyone else with it and it didn’t let on. But that’s just the same, psychological environment. The same state to be in, that brings people to suicide.. and that makes people lash out. Like I did in high school. I wish somebody had put the pieces together, but nobody ever did. When I came out it was a surprise to everybody. Everybody knew I was depressed but they didn’t know why. They didn’t know what for.. they had no idea to even ask! Which is stupid, because if you look back at a photo album of me, from the ages of like 5 to 17, 80% Page 5 �of my pictures are of me standing in jazz hands, or with one foot up on its toe.. or something what you would consider pretty homosexual, pretty gay at the time. But I don’t know.. I don’t know what people thought of me.. I just, I can’t see that they couldn’t have known something.. cause looking now I know I wasn’t that good of hiding it. CARBAJAL: When did it start to get better? Like your life right now? ROBINSON: It was mildly better in college. I tried to get in touch with the LGBT community here. didn’t work out. It was still kind of cliquish. It was still kinda the same mentality that kept me ostracized in high school. Here’s the “in” group that I’m not part of right now and becoming part of it’s very difficult. And it…and my undergrad experience was not what I was hoping it was going to be but it was at least filled with studying something I really love studying. I am, to my core, a philo philosopher and anthropologist. studier of the human condition like those are what I care about and I’m going through nonprofit work cause I wanna do something about it. And, that’s, that really informs my professional career, my my future, and what I wanna do with my life, but that’s all instead of really having any meaningful relationships or friendships with the gay community and undergrad. Very few. Very few if any. and just looking for something, some way to connect with the people in my own community. I, cause that was my, my jump out to California. I had family who lived in North Bay. Which is Corte Madera. So San Fransisco’s on the end of a peninsula and the bay curves the whole thing. So North Bay is the, the area directly across the Golden Gate Bridge. That’s where my family lived. My uncle’s an architect. I lived with them for a few months and I got a job at that publisher and I lived in San Fransisco…and it and all I knew is that was the A gay epicenter in the United States. That was a place I could go where I didn’t even havet, where no one would bat an eye. That my existence was what I wanted. And it, and it worked. It was, it was good for a time. I, I really. I hated leaving there, but I had to cuz I couldn’t afford it. I was trying to live in a city like that for under $30,000 a year. It was impossible. Like I couldn’t keep it up. Had to leave. And, I dreamt about that city for every night for a good six months. Every night was the same dream. I was back. That’s how much of an impact it was. And it wasn’t until just now in grad school that things finally really took off. In in being a peer in the community, in the group and being part of it. And I don’t know why that is. I don’t know if that was just the people I was trying to get in touch with in undergrad, if I was just not ready for it. If I was just too much of the awkward nerd to be part of it or not but, I guess that means I’m a late bloomer of some sort but I’m just happy it’s working out now. CARBAJAL: What like type of experiences made San Francisco so great for you? ROBINSON: Castro is in interesting place (said with laughter). There’s a bit of a small history about San Francisco. In the 1940’s, the navy discharged every soldier, it was every sailor it found to be homosexual, into the port of San Francisco. That is why during the subsequent fifties and sixties there was such a large uprising of gay men in San Francisco. There is not a large group of gay women in San Francisco, it doesn’t exist. There are some who are natives but it’s not as if gay women and lesbians are flocking to San Francisco. They never did. Gay men did…because there was already a large population of them there and they took over what was an Irish Catholic neighborhood, the Castro. And, that became the epicenter of everything. Of Harvey milk, of of the LGBT rights movement of California that, that because of a policy in the Navy is why that’s there. Jump to 2008, 2009, when I’m trying to move there, when I’m trying to live there, I’m 23 years old and…much too young for it. Twenty years too young to really be Page 6 �part of that community in that city. The young community of homosexuals there isn’t very vibrant because the exodus stopped there many years ago. As fabulous as the city is, it’s an amazing place. It’s not the same gay epicenter that it once was. But just because it was there made things better, walking down the street and having every lamppost rainbow flag on it. Walking down another street and have it covered in leather pride flags. Gay men’s community at least has subdivided itself into many subsequent smaller communities and they all have their own flag of a sort. The leather one is a red heart with black, white, and blue stripes on it and that’s on Fuller Street I believe they have a leather parade there of guys in leather chaps and harnesses and like leather biker caps all covered in studs. It’s kinda the idea. And it’s just because that place is so diverse even within the gay community there, that made it more welcoming. But the problems were it could be reduced to a series of dance clubs and meat markets so to speak. And, outside of that there wasn’t much more of political solidarity and there wasn’t much for me trying to find any … common interests groups to join with. Those just weren’t there anymore. But you could still go to the Castro on a Saturday night and find people walking around naked. That’s just how the part of the city worked. There were they had apparently passed ordinances where public nudity in the areas were were allowed and…people made use of it. So every weekend, it didn’t matter how cold it was outside, that’s the thing you could find. And that’s sort of freeing to see, but none of it was what I expected. And so it got a little better just because it was easy to be out and not worry about it, but it was still alien. It was still strange. It was still not what I was expecting. And that’s been, that’s been a theme for me. That’s been something that’s been pretty constant. A lot of things, I come across a lot of groups I try to become part of are alien to me and strange and I don’t understand them quite. And it’s partially because I hold myself apart from them but also because I don’t really thing they’re as welcoming as they think they are. Of other people. CARBAJAL: Is that the same, like when you went to North Carolina and.. ROBINSON: North Carolina just sucked. I went to North Carolina because my mother and sister were living there and I could crash at their houses for a few months. And I was in North Carolina for nine months total. six months in Winston-Salem, the home of cigarettes in this country. Winston Cigarettes Salem, yeah. Winston-Salem. And then just outside of Charlotte in Matthews, North Carolina and I hated it. I hated every minute of it. I’m never living there again. I don’t get along with my sister well, and to get outta there my mother ended up giving me that shitty car, buying herself a new one, and said “just go, just take your stuff and leave, just get outta here there’s nothing for you here.” I didn’t have a job anymore, I didn’t have anything I could cling to. The only reason I could be there because my family was there and we weren’t getting along well anyway so the only option was to just leave. And I did. And I took a really big risk coming back to Michigan. The unemployment rate was worse here, and I didn’t have any plans for graduate school at the time. I didn’t know I was gonna be in grad school til two months before the semester started. That’s why I applied, and my, and and it worked. I don’t know why (said with laughter) I’m glad it did, I’m doing well but…that’s everything since undergrad has been by the seat of my pants. Taking risks and trying to make things work out. Some of them have some of them haven’t. San Francisco didn’t and I ended up in North Carolina, and so I really hope grad school works out because I don’t know where I’ll end up if this one doesn’t. No, no gay community to be spoken of at all in North Carolina that I could find. Charlotte didn’t have anything for bars that were consistent, they were always closing down and opening up so there was no place that I could really depend on to go. I Page 7 �didn’t go anywhere cuz I was also out of money. And up in Winston-Salem there was one which was a really bad. It wasn’t any good. It was always empty. But it was huge. It was just a, was just a gigantic empty space and no one was ever there. So there was no way for me to meet anybody. Do anything. CARBAJAL: So it’s when you came back up here that you started meeting people and getting involved? ROBINSON: I, came back here and I reconnected with some old friends asked if they were still at Grand Valley. And I found that the LGBT community here had grown significantly. That there was two new student groups, that what once was the women’s center here became the LGBT resource center. This used to be the women’s center. These three rooms here. And that we colloquially developed what we call the “queer corner.” Where that, where that piano used to be if you remember that circle of chairs and couches out there . There’s a group of us that are in the student groups and otherwise who are all who are 90% of us are part of the LGBT community in some way. A few people, three or four, out of the 20 or so that show up, aren’t. And so we’ve called it the queer corner because that’s our “space.” We’ve claimed it. We needed a space to be where we could be a community, be a group of friends and not worry about people harassing us. Cuz once we were in a big group like that, we were left alone. Nobody bothers us, no one’s ever come in a confronted us over there. There were stories of a couple of of people coming over there and reading really loudly, the passages of the Bible that condemn homosexuality and talking about them around us. As if to say, we know you and we object to you because our Bible tells us so. But I didn’t see any of that. And, had I seen it I would have confronted them. But, that’s been the bigger part, is having a space for the LGBT student population that we’ve claimed as our own. Has been probably the most helpful. And there’s two rules to the queer corner, unspoken rules, one everyone’s generally welcome but no hate speech. Hate speech at all of any sort against any group of people is not tolerated and you will be ostracized and kicked out of there cuz we’ve all gone through it and we’re never going through it again. Especially not for some jackass who just thinks it’s funny to come over and do that. CARBAJAL: You say you had problems with the SDA activists? Seventh-day Adventists? ROBINSON: I went up and I confronted, I was a philosophy student and I had no idea who the Adven who the Seventh-day Adventists were. But I knew enough of Christian theology that I could place them in the splintering history of Christian churches and I went in there and I specifically asked them what their views on homosexuality were and they told me. And all hate the sin not the sinner. Well, great but I really don’t think you guys understand what your words mean when you say that because you are in fact hating on the sinner when you say that. That’s the point. That’s how words work. You know, that how you make sin into a noun of somebody who performs it. Is to call them the sinner in the first place. they didn’t quite understand that and I just walked away. I was just trying to be there, philosophically challenge them on and just decided not to in the end. CARBAJAL: Besides the LGBT like center here, was there anyone that really supported you? ROBINSON: I never had a problems in the academic departments of any of my teachers. Generally everybody knew. I was pretty open about it and . I got left alone about it in those classes. And but . For actively supporting me? Not really. I tried being part of the student groups but again I didn’t feel, not Page 8 �necessarily not welcome just not part of it, and what friends I did have here I knew some of them from high school. I followed a friend here and his name was Carl. He was a good friend of mine. Who he would become my roommate was when we moved off-campus and we went through anthropology together. And he’s still actually serving in that same forest as an archaeologist that I served in. He keeps going back ser after ser and he’s slowly becoming a federal employee. But, no support groups here. I even count Milt Ford, the man who started the resource center. I spoke to him a few times in his office in the Liberal Studies Department over in Lake Ontario. But again, that’s part of the resource center he started, so other than that no there wasn’t much. CARBAJAL: Are there any activities that you yourself like. Civil rights movements or anything that you participated in? ROBINSON: (with a smile) I was in San Francisco when Proposition 8 passed for California. And Prop 8 was the anti-gay marriage amendment to the state constitution in that state. And so I got to be part of a march there against it you know, 10-15,000 people walking down market street. Walking from Dubous Park to the city hall. But it was, it was very strange. I we were following the this group. And the person at the head of it apparently when we got to the park, the first stop, was this very large golden drag queen. Gold hair, makeup, dress, all of it. And every other word out of her mouth was community. “How dare these people come into our community and hate on our community”, “we need to stand up as a community, and fight for our community, against the oppression against our community”. Like just repeating the same word to drive home the community part for some reason over and over and over again. And, then one of the local bars had brought a generator and a dj stand and a small dance party began. And I just thought that was, it was absolutely absurd. You’re going to have this political march here and at the end this is what we see? A dance party? Now partly you can see that this was a plan to be celebrating the defeat of Prop 8 as it won only by three points. You know less than the standard error in a poll for for politics was how much it won by so it coulda swung the other way. Not a very big margin. And so there was just this weird sense in San Francisco where Barrack Obama just won, this person that San Francisco absolutely loved and voted for in some crazy 90%. But then Prop 8 passed, and everyone’s going “what do we do?” “How do we handle this? How do we deal with this?” And part of the answer was just go on as the party had. And the chanting the things that had happened at that time were kind of half-hearted. Out of the bars into the streets, out of the bars into the streets and all the old-timers in the bars are goin “whatever, we’ve been defeated before this is just another defeat on the notch”. “It’s another notch on the headboard who cares?” It’s just strange to witness and but other than that for civil rights I mean there’s not that much I’ve been personally involved in. I’d like to have been but I was just always in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was never around it when it was happening cuz some of it’s pretty organic. I was never part of the groups that were starting it. You know part of being an outsider in many ways is that you don’t get to be part of these things because no one’s you don’t have any social connection to it. You know you can say well you just go out and do it anyway if you don’t have social connections there that is making social connections. Yeah, well how many people hadn’t had been at protests alone just because they went there and not with four or five friends that they want that they dragged along. How many people who are there aren’t being supported by anybody else they know and are just alone without anyone else in the crowd that they know? I, I doubt that happens much. I, I bet people are there in groups already made and coming together with other groups Page 9 �of people under that same banner. But since I wasn’t part of that in many ways around when many things were happening I didn’t get to be part of it. Because I would just feel awkward and alone and strange and separated again. CARBAJAL: Do you have any heroes like who conducted these movements, anyone you look up to for doing it? ROBINSON: Go Harvey Milk, good for him being the first elected openly gay politician in the country. Elected city commissioner of San Francisco sometime, I don’t remember the dates. I don’t much have, no, haha Barney Frank. That guy’s cool. senator of Massachusetts. first openly gay senator, I believe, and who was outted during a scandal and kept office through it and stayed there. But he’s also my political hero for what he tries to do in terms of senate in terms of finance for the country. There’s might not be any too many people that I’d look up to as as leaders of the gay community right now. There’s not many, and it- the only times there have been where when the pressure against us has has been so great that one person could rise above it (two women talking in the background) and be seen publicly. And that’s part of the legend of some like cardinal who was an assassinated city commissioner. who was assassinated by some other commissioner. Him along with the mayor, so there’s a story that’s come up a-around that but… because one the one thing that keeps the LGBT community together is the similarity in our impression by other people… that’s what keeps us together,(someone in the background putting something in the microwave) because if you look you look at groups of older gay men and lesbians, they don’t want anything to do with each other, (a couple of people walk into the room and start talking) the common goal, because were treated similarly.. (someone in the background putting something in the microwave) and without that it’s hard to (some papers crumpled in the background) being organize us, there isn’t a collective experience, there sort of is but not really, everyone’s story is unique, being because were the random minority we show up everywhere we show up in every other minority group we show up in every other group of people, were there, this one thing about who we fall in love with and have romance with and have sex with that that’s are one guiding connection (two ladies talking in the background) its very tenuous when you compare with other civil rights groups I don’t think it’s as strong as the connecting thing in the black community in the united states. First, because their impression first was something else entirely and it’s still very real, too many of them… I wish there was more. And I’m really happy for the victories that we have been getting, but it’s so splintered (microwave beeping) when viewed from within that it’s hard to say even organizations that are doing good work cause you think the human rights campaign with some fantastic organization but you could look at the criticism of it from within its not it’s not you know john salnees the current president of the human rights people that yellowy quality signs them, they’re just a gala organization, they throw on big gala fundraisers so they can throw more *clap* big gala fundraisers so they can pay money to people *clap* who won’t give us everything we want. There is just this test they are going to support the Democratic Party and fundraise for them through the gay community and they’re not actually doing very many good works. That’s what we see more of than strong leaders, we see a lot of splintered groups and people doing things for their own local communities but not any large individuals that are taking charge, so it be hard for me to say that there’s many heroes. CARBAJAL: Now today, what are—you’re a spokesperson? Or you speak to your people about? Page 10 �ROBINSON: I *chuckles* perform public therapy ha-ha, even being here telling this story of mine telling what I’ve been through, and what my fears were all makes it easier to deal with than it was before I had done that and so every time I go do a- analyze an advocates training or I can do anything for the-for this organization, it makes me just feel a little better about it. And so I just say I’ve always engaging in open therapy for it, because talking about it and getting it out in the open makes it easier because sunlight’s the best disinfectant. So those emotional scars and that pain (someone getting situated in their chair) I’ve been through is a little bit lessened every time. It’s like a small pain killer, and as if if I keep taking them maybe it will go away completely some day. So this isn’t really to bring people over to my side or get them to understand, this is just more for my own benefit, that…This makes my life easier, doing these things and being open about it. CARBAJAL: Who have you talked to? Like what types of groups and people? ROBINSON: No like I said before the tape recorder was on, I spoke to Greek guys and advocates I’ve done faculty staff, a couple this year and a couple last year I’ve done others for general student body I’m also the treasurer for out n about right now the LGBT community group on campus now, so well I wasn’t part of the community before I am now ‘cause I’m trying to run the organization, at least the money side. And *claps twice*… I think that’s it, I think that’s what I’ve done. And so I’m grabbing every opportunity I can to do these things, just ‘cause ….. Want to… makes me feel better. CARBAJAL: That’s good… for when you present to professors and things like that do you just tell-talk about your life experiences? ROBINSON: Yeah there’s a general spiel I give out, there’s many- it’s certainly much shorter than the one I gave earlier here It includes the when I found out, my first experience when I was five… the times I’ve butt up against the religious organizations, including my great uncle, the student groups here… and how my time at grand valley has been. because that’s the focus of those things, is telling them how my time at grand valley has been and how it could be better, and there has been some pushback against my … people have seem to be as anti religious stances and anti religious organizations stances I’ve had and there’s Benjamin minor but it’s there and I tell them that were the ones that were victimized, it’s understandable for us to be on the defensive and for us to not exactly be open to people coming to that stance, trying to help us, it was about 30-40 years ago that we were still being tortured by the Mormon church with electro shock therapy. And we are still currently being hunted down and killed in other religious countries around the world so it’s not like it’s my fault that I have a (two woman start talking in the background) negative opinion of it in general. CARBAJAL: So what types of things are you doing, like today, with the LGBT are your trying to control money aspect of? ROBINSON: I supposed to run the fundraisers I hold the card in my name and the advisors name I’m just the treasurer you know as much student groups, as much their as officers stick to their roles, it’s just really my name is just on the paper is doing that, I don’t think there’s anything- there’s nothing specifically that I do as treasurer that nobody else couldn’t do, other than I have to sign the receipts, Page 11 �but you know it’s a student organization account it’s not very big, it’s not something that’s *chuckles* ever a problem that I couldn’t keep track of and do. CARBAJAL: What types of fundraisers are there? ROBINSON: We haven’t done any! Ha-ha we’re working on it, as a student organization. It’s again the seed of our pants *chuckles* If you have ever been part of an undergrad organization they’re not exactly the most well run things on campus… Yeah. CARBAJAL: What types of- where would the money go for the fundraiser? ROBINSON: What we do is every spring, we buy and hand out free t-shirts, for national coming out day, April 15th, but we put on the closest Wednesday, to it. No National day of silence what it was national day of silence. And we cycle through the rainbow colors on our t-shirts and we ask organizations to be co-sponsors and we offer them a space—a name their name on the back of our shirts as being a supporting organization for whatever donation they can give us to buy whatever t-shirts and we get them .. I think last year we got them for… a few dollars each. Some really small amount we got 151 tshirts for 700 dollars 600 dollars something like that? That’s like 4 dollars a shirt somewhere around there? I don’t remember. That’s where the bulk of our fundraising money goes to, is to doing that, the rest of it we just run through the school we ask the school to pay for whatever we want, they do. CARBAJAL: You just hand out the shirts or do you have an event? ROBINSON: Yeah we hand them out, no we hand them out. We try and say group members first but that’s what they show up first. You know, Last year was our smallest handout 150 we usually hand out 300, 400 get up to the cost of 1200 dollars of t-shirts. We found a pretty good group to go through last year, and they’re willing to cut down the price by allowing them to put their logo on it and also to … they give us a discount on the cost per shirt because they’re like supporting the organization, the events like that… It was Ann Arbor t-shirt company that did that for us I drove out and picked up the shirts myself. And it’s a good time. CARBAJAL: Are there any other events that they do too? ROBINSON: We did we do an amateur drag show every fall that was just a few weeks ago, we had bout 2-300 people in attendance up in the Pere Marquette room. Ha very small cramped space filled with people. And it was a huge hit. We got a bunch of our students able to put on drag and walk on a runway and back… and we have a door we call it’s our closet door and put a rainbow flag over it, walk through it and stuff. It’s this this fun little metaphor thing they get to come out (two woman talking in the background) in then they’re in drag and they do the runway walk. We partner with a Transpectr, the transgender support group on campus and we do that for national transgender day of remembrance. We do a candle light a (someone opens the door) visual form out around the clock tower, we put on a pride prom in the spring were we provide the LGBT students (people in the background talking) who didn’t necessarily get the chance to be at prom the way they wanted to in high school, we give them the new chance to do it how how they would like.. here. And then day of silence those are our four major things we do. Then other than that we put on education pieces for them community keeping people up to do date on the current political situations we find ourselves (someone slams the door) as well as Page 12 �doing general outings. We’re going to a an orchard this weekend, to have a big gay hay ride where we’re going to freak out some farm owners ha-ha, by coming and being flamboyant as possible on their hayride and there corn maze, eat cider and donuts and do a very Michigan thing for the fall together. The organization is really just is just for that, keeping the community together and keeping us visible on campus making sure people know that gay people are here and that were part of this campus. CARBAJAL: Is there anything that you want to like to see the group do? Like any strides, specifically? ROBINSON: I would like the group to have a specific way, (he moves in his chair) a specific program that it does in the early fall semester to get in touch with the incoming freshman and incoming transfer students and let them know that we exist and let them know that support is here and give them the information they need to get in touch with all of it. Because frankly the the student life night isn’t good enough… people in the closet… aren’t that social, to go up to a big gathering like that, that public and it is so to approach a table for- covered in rainbows and about the LGBT community here, that makes us that would make me nervous had I been in the closet and seen that, I would not have approached it and I get the same response when I ask the people in the group, would have you approached a table surrounded by the student body in general which was presenting as a LGBT organization and they say no. we need a way to get in touch and show the kids who may be closeted who are coming in to the first time to a a 4-year university and show them that we’re there. And that we can be used as a support group and that we can be used as a safe place and that were a safe group of people that you can finally be yourself with… And but finding the means to do that’s difficult, do we do it with just an ad campaign were we just put out flyers everywhere and pluggers and point to that you don’t have to be out to join us… you know something like saying something like that you don’t have to come out to be a part of this community, please please join us. So the we got to find a way to be visible, and present and friendly without exposing ‘cause that’s the greatest fear when you’re in the closet and when you’re in that place is being exposed and seen. On something other than your own terms, coming out can be fantastic as long as it’s on your own terms. It’s not on anybody else’s terms ‘cause those are usually bad. So we need to find a way to be that resource…and specifically because I don’t want to see an LGBT student be the one found at the bottom of the ravine one year, because nearly every year I was here as undergrad there’s someone that has jumed off that bridge between Mackinac and the lake halls and there’s enough of a precedent of suicide in the LGBT community that I don’t want to see happen here on our campus. Last year with that group of those 5 or 6 LGBT kids who killed themselves rapid succession last fall, there has been a couple this year that gotten national attention but… it shouldn’t happen here, not when we have this not when we have three student groups and I want us to be seen more for that,(someone talking and moving in their chair in the background) I want people to know who out n about is, I want them to know what it’s for and I wanted us to be recognized almost invariably by the campus because we’re so visible… But that’s a long term goal, and I don’t know if I’m able to complete it, I hope I can just lay the seeds for it while I’m here. But I don’t I won’t be part of the—I’ll be graduating next year before maybe before the next school year starts so I won’t be a part of whatever, they’re doing… next year. Not just I hope I get them to do this while I’m gone. CARBAJAL: Will you ever come back? And see how it’s going? Page 13 �ROBINSON: Oh I’ll be in grand rapids, but… but grand valley will no longer have a program for me to take I will have gone as far as I can in my education at grand valley I can’t do a PhD here because they don’t have it for my program. There is no other masters I’d like to get, because I don’t want to get a second masters it’s pointless. I have one, I don’t need another… and… I don’t know, I’d like to think that I could to stay in grand rapids I’m going into non-profit work in grand rapids is the second largest center for philanthropy in the country, by GDP and so it’s possible? But that’s large because of Bandandels and the other big rich Dutch families in the area… and everybody has to get my resume. you know I left Michigan before for the same reason I couldn’t get a job here, and I had a job somewhere else, so if I send my resume out to every government agency I’d like to work for every non-profit foundation whichever I’d like to work for in the country, I have to be ready to move. You know if I’m willing to go off and work with the consulting firm, I’ll be sent around the country, I’ll be out. I’ll be off consulting, working with people and who knows how large the geographic area? I would love to stay in Grand Rapids, I just I can’t say if I will or not, it’s unfortunate but it’s true. CARBAJAL: Is there anything el-anything else that you wish happens with, anybody that needs to come out or? ROBINSON: I would like to hope that it the the what’s the bad things that happen to you I would like that to even out across the LGBT groups. Right now we’re four times as likely to attempt to suicide growing up. Than just your average teenager where one in four of us get kicked out of our homes and we come out before we’re independent of our parents and thus we account for 60-70% of homeless youth in this country so what I would like to hope is for those numbers to go down. That your not longer 1 in four are kicked out 1 in 5, 1 in 6 and up to none, are kicked out for it. And I would like to hope that Grand Rapids continues to grow and gets better at it, because right now it’s pretty good for what you’d think about a west Michigan city, grand rapids is pretty good, it’s got four gay bars which is incredible that there’s the economy could sustain four of them… and there’s a few friendly gay churches, good. As much as I don’t want to be a part of them, good I’m glad they’re there, ‘cause I can’t speak for all of us. And so yeah Grand Rapids is good, it’s getting better hope it continues to get better, and I hope all of our statistics start to get lower, at least regionally but not completely. (Someone in the background moving in their chair) CARBAJAL: Is there anything else, anything more you want to share? ROBINSON: Any closing tagline any, any bit? No I think it’s depressing enough ha-ha CARBAJAL: Depressing note to end on ha-ha ROBINSON: I think that spiels, think that’s a good way to end it seriously without that end you could put it on MPR ha-ha-ha. CARBAJAL: Ok well thank you for coming ROBINSON: Thank you END OF INTERVIEW Page 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/199f33d3ba1eac40d2f7e9f16788f905.mp3 d9d0cdfd05971004cda4b32190a05160 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Robinson_Richard Title A name given to the resource Richard Robinson audio interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Richard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carbajal, Samantha Espiritu, Arianne Wilusz, Laura Description An account of the resource Richard Robinson grew up in Clarkston, MI. He attended Oakland Community College from 2003-2005 and GVSU as an undergrad from 2005-2008. His undergrad was in Philosophy and anthropology. He is now a grad student studying public administration. He discusses his activism with the LGBT community. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca178fb931566331b28f89a05db3d655.pdf 8771be6ce4360bf82edf83fc8a54ac2e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections IntervieweOMOH: Esiloza Omoh Interviewers: Briana Burke Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections DatOMOH: 9/30/2011 Biography and Description Esiloza Omoh was born in Legos, Nigeria, raised in Chicago, Illinois, and attended Grand Valley State University. She graduated with a degree in Biomedical Science. She discusses her experiences with discrimination because of the color of her skin. Transcript BURKE: We are here today, Friday September 30th, with Esiloza Omoh at Allendale, Michigan and here to talk about your experiences with civil rights in western Michigan. To start off could you please give us some basic information about yourself; where you are from and your family and some background? OMOH: Well, my name is Esiloza but I usually go by Esi. I am twenty-three years old and I recently graduated from Grand Valley with a Biomedical Science major. I was originally born in Legos Nigeria, and my family immigrated to the United States about thirteen years ago. And we lived in Chicago for about eight or nine years before I moved to Grand Rapids to go to school. BURKE: OK. So what about your family? Tell us about your family, your parents, siblings... OMOH: I have two brothers and two sisters and my mom was in Nigeria and my father recently passed away in February, so he’s no longer with us but he was also living in Nigeria. I have two older sisters, one older brother and one little brother. I have family, they live, I have two siblings that live in Chicago, one in Memphis, Tennessee and another one in Dekaib, Illinois. And they’re pretty much done with school except for my little brother who’s in college in Northern Illinois. So I’m the only one in Grand Rapids Michigan. BURKE: OK. So what about your ancestors and your community involvement? OMOH: Would you like me to talk about the ancestors first? BURKE: Sure. Yeah. OMOH: Oh, well I don’t really know too much about my ancestors. I do know that I have a lot of aunts and uncles. My father’s, my paternal grandfather married four wives... Page 1 �BURKE: Wow. OMOH: And my maternal grandfather married five wives? So I have a lot of extended family... (laughs)... yea BURKE: (laughs) Wow. OMOH: And we’re all related through my grandfather so yea BURKE: OK. OMOH: I don’t think we would call his wives step-mothers because they really weren’t step mothers they were just other wives. BURKE: Right. OMOH: So, yea. My maternal grandparents died before I was born and my father’s father died when I was about two and my father’s mother passed away when I was about six or seven. So, I don’t really know a lot about my grandparents or extended family and then at a young age I moved to America so I was removed from them I have no family in this country except for my siblings. So, I’m further away from them. But it was a good chance to meet them like I said in February. My father passed away and I had to go back to Nigeria for the burial and I was meeting cousins and aunts and uncles that I have never meet in my entire live before and I believe I have about eighty or ninety uncles and aunts and I’m not even gonna’ talk about the cousins .. . (laughs)... I don’t even know and its crazy cuz’ we all look alike (laughs) and its weird because it’s like I’ve never seen you before in my life and I’ve never heard about you and this big large group of people are family... BURKE: Oh, wow! OMOH: So... gotten’ used to that I don’t remember half of their names but we still keep in touch with the Facebook ... (laughs) ... it’s a good social media type of tool to use. BURKE: Right, Yea. (laughs) OMOH: But, yeah, apart from like my immediate history like I knew where I grew up... my father was the first child to go to school period. BURKE: Wow. OMOH: In his family, so he grew up in the village and um his father and mother were slightly, not slightly, but mostly illiterate. So he said that he was also the first child of all of the wives. So he was kind of like a father when his father passed away. So he had to go to school, he had to move, he left the village to go to the city to go to school because you have a better education there. And he went on to go get his college degree, his masters, his doctorate everything, he has so many different degrees in law and finance and everything. And um, since he became the father because Nigeria back in the day and still kind of right now is mostly male dominated BURKE: OK.. Page 2 �OMOH: So... when his father passed away he became the “husband” to the wives, so if anything they had that needed to get done they had to ask his permission. So he became in charge of sending his brothers and sisters to schools and his immediate brothers and sisters sent his half brothers and sisters to schools and be sure that they didn’t get into trouble and try and support them in what they wanting. So it was kind of... kind of weird because he came, he had his own kids which me and my siblings but then had twenty or thirty other kids also. BURKE: Right OMOH: Actually, I met an aunt that’s younger than me (laugh) OMOH: (laugh) So I was like.., interesting! So he, he has been taking care of a lot of stuff. So. BURKE: Wow. OMOH: Don’t really know too much more about his side of the family, I know more about my mom’s side of the family because they were more active in my life. And I have a lot of cousins and aunts there on her side also that I met more of when I went to Nigeria in February. It’s kind of over welcoming because it’s not like the customary “Oh, I have five six cousins or maybe ten cousins...” Just on both sides it’s like there’s sixty cousins here and then one-hundred and fifty here. Cuz’ each, each wife like say has like five or six kids, BURKE: Right. OMOH: And my mom was telling me back in the day that they tried to have a lot of kids so that they have more kids working and helping you around the house or the farm or whatever. So each, imagine, each child having six kids and then one of those six going to make six more... BURKE: Mhm OMOH: It’s a lot. Actually we only have, my mom only has five kids and that’s kind of small compared to her other brothers and sisters (laugh) So BURKE: (Laugh) wow OMOH: Not to many Nigerians these days have big nuclear family. Most of them keep like two three, maybe four kids. But kind of like I was learning the history here, down south mostly like it wasn’t uncommon for someone to have twelve, thirteen kids. I was like wow that’s a lot because usually because of lack of health care back in the day it wasn’t uncommon for a child to day in child birth or maybe three, four years old it would die because of some sickness... BURKE: Right. OMOH: So, everyone’s just poppin’ out kids (laugh) helped them out. So, just trying to keep my answers straight here, what was the other question you asked? Page 3 �BURKE: About the community involvement OMOH: You mean like my volunteer experience? BURKE: Yeah, anything! OMOH: Well, I try to stay, whatever community I’m in, I try to stay very involved. Like for example, I currently tutor math to kids at the Gerald Ford Job Court. BURKE: OK. OMOH: I don’t know if you’re familiar with that... its a center for at risk youth between ages of sixteen to twenty-four, where they usually go there basically if they’ve dropped out of school or they’re trying to reorganize their lives. So we help them get their GED or get their H.S. credits. Usually these kids are, like I said dropped out, or been gang related activity or been bused for drugs or something and it is kind of like a fresh start for them to get to live on the facilities so they don’t have to worry about housing because some of them might have been homeless or been in some situations where they don’t want to go back. So which actually made them go in the streets in the first place, so they don’t have to worry about food or housing. They don’t have to worry about paying for GED, pre-testing, or ACT classes so they get their GED, high school credit and also help them apply for college and also get ajob. So we also have training modules, like training to get a CNA positions or different trades. We also have a trade’s school. So I volunteer there, and I also work at Cross Roads High School, which is an alternative high school where kids also similar to the kids at Gerald Ford Job Court. Except these kids haven’t been kicked out of high school they’ve just been kicked out of their community high school because they got into trouble, violations, got into fight or were at risk or injuring themselves or other students. So they are trying to get back the credits so they can graduate on time or just graduate period, because some of them they’re still attached to getting a GED versus a high school degree. So we’re helping them with that and the after school program is from 2:30 to 5:45, I’d say 5:45, so that after they get from school we provide them with another snack because some kids don’t have food at home. So we give them that, and then we have some kind of activity to make them involved and show them that you can still have fun without any violence or illegal activities. hat word am I looking for? Incorporate to their activities that they do. And then we give them free time from them to either play basketball or we bring out the wii system or something so that we can also reinforce so that the healthy living aspect to where you have to have some healthy physical activity so you have a healthy youth. Excuse me, so after that we also give them a school bus system to get back home so they don’t have to get on the city bus where they might meet somebody that they might get into a fight with. Again because these kids, we try to get them out of their atmosphere of violence and from that community of people they might know of people that might make them go back to their habits. And what else do I do... I used to do a lot more when I was at Grand Valley because I had a lot more time but now I try to be limiting my volunteer activities to a minimum so I can actually get a job. So apart from that, that’s basically what I do... Oh Yea! I have one more thing actually, I might become affiliated with west Michigan non-profit something.. .collation for a non-racist environment. Where we are basically going to be pushing different initiatives for students and community members to become familiar with the effects of racism, poverty, homelessness and all of that and seeing how we can come together as a community strengthening Page 4 �ourselves and help the less fortunate. So... there’s a lot of words in the title, I’m gonna get it right one day. But that’s what I’m looking into becoming involved with, actually I had an interview for that today so, I try to stay involved in my community. BURKE: Very cool, so now do you want to tell us about your actually move to the United States? Like what was that like for you and your family? OMOH: Oh, yea I could do that. I can’t even explain it, we went from being overwhelmed, and to culture shocked to a whole different sensations it smelt different here. I grew up around a lot of trees so we had fresh air and then coming into Chicago you could smell the congestion. We have European people in Nigeria so I didn’t really come across someone who wasn’t black. So either most people were black or brown or some variation of that skin tone. So coming here where I saw white, I saw Asian I saw Hispanic and a whole bunch I was like ‘oh my gosh people look so different!” I used to go like, I came here in the fifth grade, so I used to touch peoples hair a lot which in America I learned there is personal space (laugh) OMOH: You can’t just touch people hair! Cuz I’ve never touched anyone else’s hair that wasn’t like mine. I thought it was amazing when I first saw somebody with green eyes. It was kind of scary because I couldn’t believe somebody had colored eyes! (laugh) But I mean in Nigeria we have cable we weren’t like back woods people. I’ve seen on TV that people have blonde hair but I’ve never in real life seen the green and blue eyes except for like brown eyes. So that was amazing! And then I finally got to eat pizza! So when I was younger we had cartoon network in Nigeria and I used to wish I had this magic ring (giggle) where, cuz you have the Chucky Cheese commercials, I would just rub and pizza would appear! (laugh) So (lots of laughing!) OMOH: So my first experience with American food, when we got off the plane my Uncle picked us up, and we went to McDonalds. And my brother had chicken nuggets, which he thought, was like foods from the Gods (laugh) and then I had pizza! It took me awhile to get used to it, I wasn’t expecting it to be as wet, with the sauce! BURKE: Right! OMOH: Because on TV I saw like oh yea pizza cheesy but I didn’t expect the sauce! So I got used to that, but the food its, well for a lot of time I wouldn’t eat chicken here because I don’t know if you guys grew up on a farm or seen what an actual chicken looks like and a farm not like genetically enhanced, a chicken is very smaller than the chicken in Mejier! So I was just thinking this chicken is nasty like on drugs! Cuz it wasn’t like chicken in Nigeria! (laughter from both) And then eggs are like white! I grew up eating brown eggs! So I was like “oh my gosh!” The chicken and the eggs are different in America! So I didn’t wanna’ eat that. The water tasted so different, because in Nigeria we can’t just drink water out of the faucet. Ya know, like we have to get water from the tap, boil it and let it cool down then scoop the top because all the sediments sink to the bottom so you don’t get sick. So you take the scoop from top and put it in the refrigerator. So I had a ball drinking water from the tap! (laughter) Page 5 �It’s just the little things people take for granted. And then we came like around August, and then two months later it started snowing. I had never seen snow in my entire life! So (laughter) grown adults, me, my mom, my dad, brothers and sisters we just went outside and stood in the snow and had like our tongues out, the snows dripping and people are walking outside Chicago and was like what’s wrong with these people? Little did they know we had never seen snow before! So that’s one of the experiences I had in America, one of the few things that I do cherish. what else shocked me? Before coming to America I had never been on a plane before. BURKE: Really? OMOH: So we had one of the longest flights ever so I boarded and the plane’s flight was like sixteen hours. And so we finally came here and potato chips, never had potato chips before. when we talk about chips, at least in my family; we refer to potato’s that have been cut up, like homemade fries. But never had potato chips so experiencing the whole cookies and all those junk food because we weren’t really big on junk food. Especially not in my village at least, we had candy but the candy we had was like one hundred times less sugary (laughter) then the candy here. Like one jolly rancher is like three packs of candy in the ones I grew up with. So getting sugar, my first ever sugar rush was amazing! (laughter) What else did I go through? like I said the culture shock , in reference to culture shock they always talk about like for an example stereotypical white person teaching them to deal with the black person . So you might go to college, you might see more Native Americans or Hispanics but they never really talk about the reverse. like they always take for granted just because you’re a minority you’re “diversified.” And that’s not true at all! Because I went through a culture shock, the biggest culture shock of my life when I came to America! Seeing so many different languages, so many different cultures, so many people that look so different! Because I feel that and culture is not about race; it’s about who you are what you have to bring, it’s about music, it’s about culture, it’s about your perspective and I had a very ignorant perspective on life. I knew based on TV that there was American’s, there were Europeans that looked different but based on TV I had never been to America before. I always saw, I always thought that everybody in America was rich, everybody was white, mostly, and that everybody was happy. And then my reference to black American’s was that they were always fighting amongst each other, only wanted to do rap and didn’t want anything to do with good things. And I came from that by watching TV! because we got CNN in Nigeria and we get cable so I see all these movies and a typical movie black people are in usually for a while they had all those movies in the nineties that came out about that it was always, always the black high school student and here comes the white teacher in to save the horrible kids and so they can go to school and try to help them read, that’s all the movies that we had! And on TV we saw that black people was always wanting to shoot and blood related movies and then you turned on MTV and always saw black people rapping so that’s what our view was. And it was very ignorant. I never knew the first black person that I met, the first black American that I met I asked him. It was very ignorant and I offended a lot of people. But I mean, I tried to apologize like I’m sorry I just came to America I don’t know what’s going on. And then the reverse thing happened. I used to feel really bad for being ignorant but then I stopped because (laughter) America is ignorant too. I had people tell me, not ask, tell me that, (I think I’ve told you this before) that I was a savage and that all my people lived in caves and we walk around naked and we hunt our own food. And I said regardless, I don’t know what part of Africa does that, I’m sure there’s some people who hunt their own foods but in Nigeria we Page 6 �have supermarkets (laughter) and we have forks and knifes and we also live in houses. There some people who don’t live under a house or an attached roofs, they might be poor they might live in an area where they are using their resources. Like in the village our house was made from clay. the red sand and then you mold that into brick and everything and used that. Why would you spend thousands, our currency is not that, but why would you spend thousands or Nira to ship cement from the city or buy cement blocks when you could just use your resources. BURKE: Right. OMOH: But, from an outsider looking in, because it’s not cement or plaster or whatever we are poor. So I was told that and it was very, well really shocke me was my experience with black American and white American’s. And I hate to always say black and white, I know there’s Hispanics and Asian decent but my experience mostly is with black and white. And I was really shocked when my white friends, I had to keep saying white, um do you prefer Caucasian? BURKE: No you’re fine OMOH: (laughter) Sorry, I don’t wanna offend anybody! (laughter) My experience with white people is so much more better than my experience with black people. It was not until I attending college here that I saw black people were “not as friendly.” I started learning about America’s history, black history, the black on black crime, the hatred, and all the things going up to the typical black male the typical black woman. And I had a lot of black people tell me to go back to Africa. That, they hated me because they thought that I didn’t know their heritage so they hated me based on relationships with other Africans who previously had said they weren’t real “blacks” because they didn’t know their mother land or something like that. So, growing up in American I gravitated more towards the Hispanics, the Whites, people from Asian descent, and really stayed away from black people until I came to high school. I had no choice I grew up in an all-black neighborhood, and I was referred to as “African booty scratcher.” I don’t even know what that means! Like you have to be African to scratch you’re booty!? BURKE: (laughter) I don’t know! (laughter) OMOH: I don’t understand! (laughter) So, I was referred to as “African booty scratcher” and other derogatory words and they would hate me on site. BURKE: (sorrowful) wow. OMOH: Not just I don’t like you. This is hate, hatred. And they always say when you think about racism, what do you think of? Do you think of white racist against blacks? They don’t really talk about black racists against white or black racist against black. And its racism, it’s not a dislike when an African doesn’t like an African American or vice versa. So, I never dealt with racism my entire life growing up in Nigeria. And I’m sure, there’s there is rivalries between each clan or the most I ever dealt with in Nigeria was like how the Christians and Muslims and the religious wars but at far as race it can’t really be racism because we are all the same race! We just have different ethnicities. BURKE: Right, OK. Page 7 �OMOH: Coming to America, I’d never hear of anybody hating on site just based on your skin color. And I had more racism from the black American’s and til this day I’ve still had more racism on black Americans ever then on white Americans! And, I can’t understand that because reading in the textbooks or I have a lot of African American classes and a lot of African American professors they talked to be about their struggles and I learned that I’m very appreciative to learn about the history. But they never really touch on it and what I would like to know more about is why black people might see African’s as a threat? But yea that would be my experience with culture shock. I don’t know I kind of rambled on a little bit (laughter) BURKE: (polite) That’s OK. So do you… off of what you said do you ever remember family members or any other friends being like specifically being discriminated against, like in your education, or employment or socially? Something like that have an effect on you? OMOH: Yeah. I mean I grew up in an all-black neighborhood and I saw, I saw it all. Especially, like, I grew up on the south side of Chicago so I don’t think I sound like I’m from Chicago; I’ve adopted this generic accent, American accent. I learned early on and also my family members did that if you do not speak correct American English it can be seen as a weakness, as a form of you as a dark tally against your intelligence. So, our family incorporated this accent, so that we could blend it sort of like a chameleon so that we could blend in with the citizens so that we don’t stand out. And in an all-black neighborhood, if you wanna pick up an accent it’s kind of like survival. If you sound like you’re not from around here they are like whatch’ you doing over here? And then you get picked on and stuff like that and probably robbed or whatever, just not to fit into stereotypes. So I picked up this accent, being like a black person I was able to I don’t know the word, filterate, is it filterate? I don’t know it’s a word that sounds like that. I’m trying to use big words (laughter). Into the black society around my neighborhood and if we go in groups like for example the Gerinoso which is like a version of Meijer here kind of. If we go to a store or like clothing store nobody would ask us for help. And if they did ask us if we actually needed help it was very cut down like this is what it is and then leave us alone versus if a white person came in they’d be like “oh are you ok are you ok” and everything. And then I had a white friend who thought it was funny to play these jokes where she would walk in and she would get helped and I would walk in and I wouldn’t get helped. And we both applied for ajob and I was more qualified than her and she get it and I didn’t. And she’ll go into these interviews and not even dress up! Like don’t even have a suit on and I would be like suited up and everything! Smelling good and everything! (laughter) Wouldn’t get the job. And she thought it was funny and least to say we are not friends anymore (laughter). But I was, I’ve experienced it, but it was kind of like experiencing what my friends were experiencing but it was like an out of body experience because we somebody was being racist or having racial slurs thrown out, it was like I knew it was bad but it didn’t hurt me because I didn’t grow up here! Versus my black friends would get upset. So, like going to the supermarket and then the owners trail you around trying to make sure you’re not stealing anything. I’ve been through all of that but I didn’t know what the meaning of it was, as far as my friends getting mad and saying oh because I’m its because I’m black. I didn’t grow up feeling like I had to prove myself in a white community. So, I don’t know I don’t think I am the best one to answer that question because when I think about racism I only know racism in learning about it and experiencing it, but not growing up in it. Does that make sense? Page 8 �BURKE: Mhm. OMOH: Yea. I don’t have like family or my grandparents tell me what they went through in the civil rights movement I’m just for it and learning about it. So, sorry (laughter) Sorry I don’t know what else to say. BURKE: (laughter). It’s OK. So, how would you describe your own identity? OMOH: Hmm. As what? As an American as a women? As a Nigerian? BURKE: Anything. How you perceive yourself. OMOH: Hmm. I perceive myself as (sigh) I would like to say strong black women. And when I say black I don’t mean African, Jamaican, or black American, just black because that’s my race. I used to always say that I was, I went from identifring as Nigerian, to African, to Black and vice versa, like it depends on how I feel. I do wear, my personality on me so, I do, you’ll always see me with some African jewelry on or my family we always grow up with bright colors so I’ll always have bright colors on me. Or something with flowers! Something just like that’s how I express myself! But since I’ve been in American, I’ve felt like the more years I spend in America, the less I can identified as being from African descent. I don’t really have a lot of “African” friends, I didn’t; so I feel like I’m losing myself which is why I pressingly cut my hair so that I can get back to my roots, and even that I felt was kind of like was making me a laughing stock because why would I have to cut my hair off to feel Africa-, I should always feel African. So, being born in one country and then growing up in another, messes with your head. And then I have another friend I don’t think she’d prefer, I’m not even gonna’ say her name... BURKE: That’s OK. OMOH: But she was born in Ethiopia but she grew up here. And I’ve had multiple talks with her and I highly respect her and so far she’s the only one that can understand me when I say that I identify as being African feeling kind of loss. Because there is core values that you learn in your ancestry, who you are that, you learn at a certain age. And I moved from Nigeria where I could attain that. So the only thing that I know, the only thing that I can identify as African is my name, how I look cuz’ we do have a look (laughter). It’s stereotypical! Nigerians you can’t really tell if they’re African because we can blend in with the normal American blacks, but some Africans you can just look and they’re African! And I am so jealous about that, because I want to be able to walk down the street and somebody look at me and say look she’s African. I don’t, I look like a black American. So, growing up in another country, I just feel like I’ve lost my roots, So, I don’t know yet how to identify. I identify as an adjective as strong, motivated, and independent. But as far as my cultural definition, that is something I am striving to complete, within myself. So (laughter) You’re laughing at me! BURKE: (polite laughter) I am not laughing. OMOH: So yea I don’t identify with that yet. BURKE: OK. Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adulthood where you felt you were treated differently because of your identity? Page 9 �OMOH: (long sigh) Yea... I don’t wanna talk about them (laugh) ... BURKE: If you don’t want to that’s OK. OMOH: I mean I could... it’s just... growing up in American has been rough. So rough. It’s like I don’t fit in with anywhere. I feel like I’m just this zombie... and to give you a heads up, it’s like to Americans, Americans see me as black. They don’t say that in Nigeria. Black Americans see me as being African they would never claim me as being a black American. But Nigerian, and most of my African friends don’t see me as African because I’ve been here for thirteen years and I can turn off my accent, turn on and off; but the strong edge of my accent has been lost because it’s been dulled down by the )American accent. So, I am neither American, black American or African, to them. I will always know what I am but speaking in my “accent” to like my Nigerian or African friends, they’ve said that multiple times they don’t even consider me Nigerian or African because once you come to America, apparently you lose that. And speaking in my accent I actually had a friend, a couple of friends tell me they couldn’t take me seriously because they thought that I was faking my accent. I had to prove with birth records, to a couple of other African friends that I was African. So just imagine that it’s like you aren’t American because you aren’t born here, other people see you as black American, the black American’s or African Americans, I don’t know which one to say because sometimes I’ve had friends who prefer to black and prefer to be African American so I say black American, kind of in the middle (laugh). So the black Americans don’t see me as being black and would never claim me as being black, and my African people don’t claim me as being African. So in a situation where you say based on my identity, there’s a lot. But to sum it up it has just been a learning experience and I feel that I would never want my child to go through what I’m going through. I mean I’m very grateful for what the sacrifices my parents made so that I can have a very good education and bright future. But sometimes I don’t know if it’s worth it, identifying as being African. I remember one day, high school they have say culture day and you get to wear your countries clothing or if you’re Irish you wear your Irish clothing or if your Hispanic, I know a lot of my Hispanic friends they always wore their favorite soccer team jersey or Africans or the Asians we always wear our culture guard. And I remember I was just so happy to finally wear that and be in a safe environment. Because when I first came to America, in Nigeria we have what you call English clothes which is what you wear like T-shirt and jeans and then you have your culture clothes wear BURKE: Mhm. OMOH: and I always like wearing my cultural clothes and when you wanna’ impress somebody you put on your culture clothes, what I’m saying. So I wanted to impress my classmates! And I walked in full on we call it Bubira above my head tied and I was like woo I’m about to do it looking good! And the silence that met when I first came to class was like deafening. It was heartbreaking because I was so excited to share my culture and it was like animosity. Somebody told me that I looked like I had stolen a tablecloth and wrapped it around myself. (sigh) it was just rough. And then at such a young age being so proud of who you are and then that kids in high school and elementary school they’re rough they’re mean but that’s all so you think that everybody else is like that at such a young age being met with such a negative response for showing who you are kind of just makes you not want to show the world who you are anymore. So, I don’t know still trying to working on who I am (laughter). But I feel like I’m getting better. I just wish that I didn’t have to go through that. I hope I answered your question (laughter). Page 10 �BURKE: Yeah, yep! Were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the discrimination in society? OMOH: Oh yeah! Especially like my teachers, my professors, church members they always encourage me especially when they knew that I wasn’t from America. They always believe that knowledge is power and empowering yourself like even though I didn’t I don’t identify as being black in America I am going to be judged as being black American because of my skin tone. So I need to know quick, very quickly the history of black Americans. I remember I took a gen-ed course here, perspectives on African American gender males, and they were talking about all these famous black people and the struggles of the civil rights movement and I’m just like asking questions. And then they’re like yeah such and such and I’m like. Everybody like and the professors picking on people like yeah what did this person do and I’m like studied the book (laughter). And he got so upset with me! And oh, he made me cry. BURKE: Awh. OMOH: And he was like you should know you’re history, you’re in college and he was like, oh who’s that guy, George Washington or somebody with the black panthers? I don’t know who these people are! This is not my country this is not my history. And he was like you should know your history! Basically saying I was a failure to the black people and I was just like I got so upset. One of my friends in the class she had to stop me because I started crying because I was so upset! I was like this is not my culture! And he was like what do you mean, you are a black American? No! I am Nigerian! I might not look like the stereotypically African. But I took this class so that I could learn more about black Americans. And he was just like, he was stunned. And I was like you have a doctorate degree but you are very ignorant. You just assumed because I was black in this black American class I had to be an African American. So, that’s only one of the few negative responses. But after he knew that he came around and he was very patient with me and it was kind of, kind of embarrassing to only know that there was these people that helped free some slaves. They really don’t tell you a lot in high school about civil rights movements and all that slavery and expeditions and all that . So, he taught me and he was like , I’m sorry, well he never said I’m sorry I take that back. (laughter) Well, I felt like he was sorry for judging that and I think the way he apologized was to be patient with me and challenge me throughout the whole semester about like learning about black history. Knowing about what racism is and that there’s not just white on black there is black on white, there’s black on black there is Hispanic on white, Hispanic on black, racism is racism! You define it to the very minimum; I didn’t know there were so many different definitions for racism. Like racism it’s just not hating another race, it’s that feeling your race is superior to another one. I never knew all that. So I learned about that and I had a lot of church members sit around and say back in my day we couldn’t ride in the front of the bus and now ya’ll just don’t wanna’ sit in front of the bus . Stuff like that so, I had a lot of people influential in my life and know about such things. BURKE: Were there any articles or books films or speeches or anything that influenced your thinking about race or ethnic issues? OMOH: I wouldn’t say films or books would tribute to the way I look at race, more to my upbringing. I didn’t grow up in a house of hate. I know people always say I didn’t grow up in a house of hate, my people my parents are very tolerant. I just didn’t grow up like that, and I don’t even think people realize Page 11 �off the bat what they are saying is racist. But derogatory because their parents are saying it to them and that it’s OK. My parents brought me up to see people as individuals regardless of their skin color. BURKE: Mhrn. OMOH: So, I don’t know. I just feel like everybody is equal and I am going to dislike you if you give me a reason to dislike you. I’m a very fun-loving person; it takes a lot for me not to like you. So I don’t know, a lot of people, especially in America, which I don’t understand because I could understand were in a country everybody looked alike for you to be racist against other people, but in American where nobody looks alike and we have so many middle and in between races, why people hate you on site based on your skin tone. I mean I’ve read a lot of books that , especially working as a resident assistant having those conferences and seminars about equality and diversity and all that stuff, I’m sorry I don’t really. Some people do need diversity training and nobody is above that (sigh) I don’t know I feel like it is a problem where in a country you have to teach people to like each other. Why don’t we just like each other? Are you telling me that if you first saw me and I had the stereotypically blond hair and blue eyes you would like me versus brown hair, brown eyes? I don’t understand. So, I don’t know I don’t like reading about race because you never find anything good about race. Like you always saw oh the culture but if you Google racism or race you always see articles about whathappened in 60s 70s 80s or before that and its really bad and I don’t really read books about racism. I’m sorry, this is very depressing. So the way I feel about my communication with different races with how I grew up and how I was raised I respect every person despite whichever age ethnicity or race they are. BURKE: Has this changed since you moved to western Michigan specifically? OMOH: No. But what has changed is um my tolerance level (laughter) BURKE: OK. OMOH: goodness. I’ve gone up and down in my tolerance level in dealing with people who are not as open-minded. I still don’t understand why people refer to as like oh west Michigan. Apparently west Michigan is like not as open-minded as east Michigan? I don’t know the difference; I grew up in Chicago so I just do the Michigan thing that people usually do. I do know that something simple as even going to Meijer and walking across the street I get looked at! Especially since I cut back up my hair. It’s not just like oh there’s people walking across the street I’m bored so I’ll look. No I get stares of death! Especially, from the older generation. And I still can’t get used to it I’ve had professors, you can always tell how professors are going to react to you based on their age. And the ones that are mostly in their 40s or 50s are like oh yea equal opportunity and like yea all equal opportunity! And once you start getting into the57, 58 and 60s you start seeing, cuz if they’re like 60 or 70 they were probably around during the civil rights movement and all that and those kind of ideals don’t just leave. And I’ve actually had to report one professor! BURKE: Really? OMOH: Yea and he got investigated and found out that it wasn’t just me that he was being racist to. Because I had a lot of professor and teachers in high school that I know didn’t like me and treated me Page 12 �differently because of my race but that’s just character building. And I always felt like if I reported it. nobody would do anything about it. But this one like I just couldn’t let go. Its one thing if you humiliate me in private and down my intelligence but if you do it in front of a class of 70, 80 people, like biology and science classes are huge! And it’s like only three black people in there and you pick on them and make us look like fools and feel insignificant. I knew I had to say something when my friend she was also in that class, she was black and the black people always sat in the front cuz we try and give the professor no reason that we’re not smart by sitting in the back. We’d sit in the front and she came to me almost in tears because she couldn’t look her professor in the eye. It was the same professor that I had. Every time that he would look at her she would turn her face away because he made her that scared. All three of us were scared to say anything to anybody because we didn’t want our grades to suffer. BURKE: Mhm OMOH: So... Gosh I think I might cry... I’m going to relax; it’s okay, sorry. Alright BURKE: I finally worked up the nerve to go and report how we were being treated and nothing came of it. BURKE: Nothing? OMOH: Nothing. He was investigated, they found out and said that he has some social disability because he is always doing research and he hasn’t come in contact with minority students and that so he doesn’t know how to deal with that. So basically what you’re telling me is schools like Grand Valley promote racism as long as you’re over sixty years old. And what really got me so jaded and upset was the fact that the supervisor told me that she cannot guarantee my safety. BURKE: Wow OMOH: I don’t have words, almost she said she couldn’t guarantee if I could be safe if I made it public, cause they were investigating underneath the radar. And if I actually put my name on paper, she couldn’t guarantee my safety, and she couldn’t guarantee that my grades would not suffer. She told me that it would be in my best interest to wait until I graduate, wait until I left the class to make a formal complaint. BURKE: Wow OMOH: This is at Grand Valley in this day in age. So I went home crying and I was just so upset, and finally after the class, I went back and said okay I’m ready, I’d like to make a complaint. Ohhhhhhhhh we can’t make a complaint they gave me some silly run around about how he had some social disability and they investigated and blah blah blah and it was ok. Found out from other sources that because I had said something, other students started to say things, other black students. Still wouldn’t say anything. I had other students in my class that I didn’t know, white students, who would raise their hand and ask a question, and he will answer. And then I would ask a question and he would say, “I’m not answering that right now”. And I had another student, we weren’t really close but she knew me, I asked a question and he said he wouldn’t answer and would have nothing to do with this, and I tell you I’m not lying, said the same exact question flow verbatim and he answered it and she was so upset that he answered, that in Page 13 �front ofthe whole class called him out. And said, “When Esi asked you this question youwouldn’t answer it, why would you answer it for me right now? And what he said? “I don’t want to talk about that right now.” And turned around and went back to theboard. She was so upset; she went and reported to the same person that you report to, the advisor. And it wasn’t until she and some other students from like my lab class, I also had him for lab. BURKE: Mhrn OMOH: Revolted, and were like “we aren’t going to stand for this!” and it kind of warmed my heart because I didn’t know half of these people and made a formal complaint that they finally said they were going to do something about it, this was like a semester later and I was like no, no, I don’t want to do anything about it. This is the reason why, I don’t know if you heard anything about this, but a lot of black people don’t have any faith in the police, they feel like if something goes wrong and they report it, they are either not going to do anything about it or believe them, and nothing is going to come of it. Like if you call the police in a black neighborhood no one is going to come versus, an hour later, versus if they call in a rich neighborhood they will be there in like five minutes. So they just reinforced the whole idea that me and my other friends in the class that were black were like well you should of known better, they wouldn’t have done anything and it took people from another race to say something for you to come back and say okay now we will pursue it, and I was like no, out of your own words you could not guarantee my safety. So, my experiences in America as far as race, coming to west Michigan, have been different. There has always been racism everywhere, , but there’s never, I’ve never dealt with it as much as I came here. Living here. More ignorance than racism though, I’ll say that. But me being an R.A. actually put me in that position where I could serve as a resource to teach people. I know a lot of programs, a lot of students didn’t want to come because they’re like oh its race, all they are going to talk about is white and black racism, but I’m like no, I’m just trying to let how to recognize the signs of racism. Like if you see a peer being picked on by a professor from another race, that doesn’t mean you have to think “Oh racism”, but you have to be aware to see the signs, like if that person is constantly being put down by that professor of another race, you need to be able to see that and a lot of students I find out that they never saw it like that. In Michigan, especially west Michigan people, that live in Holland or Hudsonville, those are the people that I struggle more with because they’re just like I cannot know that, why can’t I just say that the professor doesn’t like the student? BURKE: Mhm OMOH: Just teaching them that and my tolerance is high for ignorance. BURKE: Were there any other times that you confronted any discrimination? OMOH: Yeah.... Ha-ha, yeah .... Ha-ha I’ve confronted a lot. The most stressful ones were when I was an R.A. between residents. The N-word, I’ve never liked it, I’ve never said it, and I don’t know why people say it to each other. But the N-word being tossed around a lot, the derogatory remarks based on race, not just race too, sexual preference and all of that. But the one that happened to me that really hurt the most was my junior year of college and it was back then when Obarna was running for president, and , it was like when the decision finally came out that he was going to win the election, it was a whole bunch Page 14 �of people at Kleiner, like , watching on big screens on the T.V. and you could just see right when they said it, the black people were like EEEEEEEEE and then I’m not going to say all the white people but they were like in race caps, like the blacks were over here and the whites were over there and I’m telling it was no joke, I don’t even know why you had to be black against white but it was like that here at Grand Valley, and you could just see their faces, it was just like “oh wow...” the racial slurs started to be thrown around, I think they closed Kleiner early that night, because people were just crazy and people were sitting there saying that they were going to move to Canada, which I don’t know why they were saying they were going to move to Canada, I don’t understand the significance of that, something about they don’t have a black president, I don’t what they were saying, but I walking and how far Pickard is from Kleiner, and I’m walking back and three girls from Kistler opened up their window and just started throwing racial slurs at me, as I was walking, and it was kind of dark, and how those lamps illuminate you. So they were like “her you black girl blah blah blah, n-word, f-you, blah blah blah, Obama should’ve never won, I’m gonna come get you, blah blah blah”. I was like, I was so upset because for like 5 seconds I forget I was an R.A. and my instinct was to go up to that room and beat the mess out of every last one of those females. But the voice of reason came in and I went to my other co-worker and this was before your time, she was a multicultural assistant to my resident assistant, she was like the race issue person, and talked to her about it. And then they called Dewyon, and he was upset and was like “I’m really sorry that you had to go through all that.” He knew that as an R.A. I couldn’t respond the way I should’ve responded so they had this big investigation and they tried to find the people, and they never could. how those windows are, and you could never place a room to a window, and it was dark, oh am I going too much? BURKE: Nope OMOH: Okay, so they never placed a room so they could never find the people but I just felt targeted and singled out, and just because Obama was president. I never have voted in my life, and one of the reasons that I have never voted is because, well there are two reasons. One is because I don’t really feel like I’m an American, I don’t feel like I should have a say in what goes on even though I am a citizen and applied for that citizenship, I wasn’t born here and I don’t feel like I’m invested here. I feel that I am invested in my community but I don’t feel like I should have a say in the American Government. And secondly, I don’t vote for people that I don’t know anything about. I feel like I should be able to do research, and if I like your views then I will vote. But I’m not just going to vote because you’re a democrat or you’re a republican, or you like schools or you want to give woman health care, I want to be able to do research and I don’t know how to do research and either way I’m always like I like what you’re saying, I like what you’re saying, I like what you’re saying, but I can’t just pick. I don’t like what you’re saying sometimes, or I don’t like what you’re saying sometimes, it just never makes a difference so I don’t vote. And me being targeted, I didn’t even vote for the man! I felt like I was targeted because apparently every black person voted for Obama, so the people were against Obama, or targeting, the whole week there were targets on peoples white boards, people getting into fights, I think there was like a gun incident too. BURKE: Wow Page 15 �OMOH: A lot of stuff happens at Grand Valley but they are very hush-hush. I think they surrounded a black guy and it was like three white people confronted the black guy and told him, something that had to do with the election and were calling him the n-word, and said they were going to letch him. BURKE: This was at Grand Valley? OMOH: Grand Valley girl. BURKE: Wow OMOH: So, haha I try to put it in the back of my mind so I don’t think about it but you’re questions are very deep haha. BURKE: haha I’m sorry! OMOH: It’s okay, it’s okay! I think we should go to the next question! BURKE: Will you describe any personal hero’s that have had an influence on your life? OMOH: Heros 9 hhh... I don’t think I have any hero’s. I think I have people that I greatly admire. BURKE: Okay OMOH: And um, I admire, can I say names? BURKE: Yeah! OMOH: Okay, Dewyon White? The purposes living center director of Grand Valley housing, I admire him a lot because I was I became an RA my junior year, my freshman and sophomore year I was very angry, not as angry as I was in high school, but I was a very angry woman about all the same things, especially about racial stuff happening, I was very angry about how things were turning out to be in this world, and he took me and groomed me basically he was one of the people that, also Tacara Lyn, she was his supervisor, they basically groomed me to the woman that I am today and being more tolerant and understanding of people. Yeah, pastor, couple of co-workers, family, they’ve all played an instrumental role but my hero, I don’t like that term just for the fact that hero can be sin ominous worship sometimes, I don’t really have a hero, because it’s like put this person on a pedestal and I don’t think it’s fair to put anyone on a pedestal because then when they can’t meet those standards their world comes crashing down and I always hear people who have hero’s and for example they say this man who has a wife, but then he cheats on her, now that affects you because you felt this man was on this pedestal and that backlashes and that’s just a way I protect myself. I have a lot of people I admire who play an instrumental role in my life but I don’t have any hero’s. Sorry! BURKE: No that’s fine! Were you involved in any civil rights organizations or anything like that while at Grand Valley? OMOH: No, the most ethnic thing I ever did was got involved in the ethnic council, quite honestly the last thing you could say but I really don’t like black history month for the simple fact that, well I wouldn’t Page 16 �mind celebrating black history every month it’s just to have that one month, February, like I told you I don’t really like learning about what the slaves went through, I’m just a very emotional person and when I hear about all of that, it’s just like wow! In this country, are you serious? And then the same thing is happening in my country and it’s not more of a slavery thing but it’s more of genocide, up north in Nigeria the Muslims are killing Christians because they see Christians as not worthy. I’m not saying all Muslims but the terrorist groups, they always say Muslims but terrorist are only like 1%, and you never hear about the God loving Muslims, you only hear about the terrorist. Actually, in one of the villages that my mom grew up in, they actually went there and killed everyone in the village, it wasn’t just shootings, they took a machete and chopped people up. Babies, headless babies. So I don’t like black history month because when it’s on TV. They always want to show something about hangings and I understand that you need to recognize that but I try to stay away from civil rights because that whole inequality stuff is too emotional for me to deal with. I support it from the outskirts like the civil rights walk but as far as actively involved I stay away from it. BURKE: Okay, can you describe the involvement in your church and how that has had an influence on your life? OMOH: I grew up Roman Catholic but a couple of years ago I started going to this church named Grace of the Nation’s Church and it’s a Cogic church which means “Church of God in Christ,” I’ve worked there in an organization where they help international students and international members, because it’s an international church. We have people from Jamaica, people from Nigeria, , people from South America, Mexico and even Korea. So we have a ministry that deals with international people and also we have different ministries where we raise money and donations for a little ministry that we have in Benisala, in Haiti, and in Iraq and in South Africa. We actually have one of our South African pastors that we support coming up to grace, so me being directly involved in that kind of keeps me grounded in trying to get back into my roots of helping international students and everything, and I also do hospitality which I really like because I am in front of the house greater so I’m the first person they see before they enter to the church, which is kind of cool because you can always the newcomers they are kind of nervous and I’m like “Hi welcome to Grace!” and then they totally get into the grooves of things and get welcomed. So me having involvement in my church gives me another avenue to get involved within my community and also it will keep me grounded with people who are international and who might have went through the same things I did and try to let them know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and that not all Americans have you haha. And I’m like , don’t listen to everybody. When I first came here I had a lot of black people say, “don’t trust white people!” “They’ve got it in for you” “They are all racist!” so I’m letting them know to make their own decisions about people. BURKE: Have you ever experienced any discrimination towards your religion? OMOH: Yeah, it’s kind of sad though because I understand why, I have a lot of friends that do a lot of things and the one that I clash the most with is my gay or lesbian friends nine times out often I’d say all of them totally dislike Christians, most of them have had really bad experiences with Christians and I feel like because of that there is going to be a part of intimacy within my friends that I can never reach because they have this preconceived notions about Christianity. And I don’t blame them, not at all because I’ve also had Christian friends who are very unchristian who don’t accept people for who they Page 17 �are, so I’ve had a lot of friends, for example, like I said I am very active in my church and I like to invite people to come to my church, and when your friends are not church goers, they don’t really want to go and always say some kind of religious slurs, like “that’s too Christianity for me”, and it hurts. They might feel that they have problems in their gay or lesbian relationship and feel like they can’t talk to me about it because of my Christianity. But as far as people who hate me because I’m a Christian, no I haven’t had that happen. But once they find out they are bias towards me. Yeah, I have a lot of Muslim friends too, my closest friend, she is Saudi Arabian; I have a lot of friends that are different. Some of them might think that their religion is superior to mine. I just let them keep thinking that, whatever floats your boat because I’m secure in my religion. But as far as discrimination as in I don’t want to talk to you or be around you because you’re a Christian, no I haven’t had to deal with that. BURKE: How was it different going to high school in Chicago versus your school in Nigeria? OMOH: First of all, a lot more of racial diversity in America than in Nigeria. School here is a lot easier, which is good for me. We start school at a very early age and its education, education, education, I don’t ever remember relaxing. But it wasn’t bad and I didn’t complain because it was what everyone did, they went to school at 7:30am and it was over at 4:30pm and had tutoring, which was basically another school from 5:00pm to 8:30pm and then do homework and chores and start it all over again. I don’t think I ever relaxed and I didn’t have weekends, it’s been a long time, but I didn’t have to go to school on Saturdays but I had home school on that day, and Sundays I went to church, eat and then study because I had homework from regular day school and from tutoring also. But everyone else did it, so it wasn’t like I was the only one so I never complained. It was a social norm. The difference here is that I learn about different cultures such as European history, American history, but in Nigeria our history was focused on Britain, because we were colonized by the British, so we learn more about that. Difference that I don’t like here that I liked there is the option of learning of learning my own language, I feel that I would be a lot more fluent in it, so that’s another thing that I need to work on. Not being able to practice your language doesn’t necessary mean you’re going to lose it but you start thinking in a language, such as English. For example my parents used to ask me questions in my own language, but I would respond in English. I was never really 100% fluent, but I was speaking the equivalent of Spanglish, half Spanish half English, but now I can’t even do that! I just respond back in English. I wish they had more variety, instead of options for European but African. I’m happy they have Japanese, which isn’t very common, Chinese is more common than Japanese, but just a variety of languages is something that I miss. BURKE: Based on the different schooling systems that you have been a part of, can you describe any differences in the structure of learning? Such as critical thinking skills? OMOH: In Nigeria we push math and science. BURKE: Why is that? OMOH: Both of my parents were educators, and their theory on this, which I believe, is that they pushed math and science because we are a developing country. So we push and start school early, you graduate high school when you are 16, and you go on to college where you learn math and science, stereotypical Page 18 �but most Africans are either doctors or engineers, something math or science related. You go and get these good degrees and then give back to the community. So the high school college generation is the future of the country, what they specialize in will be what our country will develop in. The reason why the United States developed is because they have all this technology and resources, well it took someone to go into a higher level in college for them to invent all of these things. So we hope that one day, when we give back to our community that most of these people who went to other countries to get their degree in other things will one day rule our country, but they never end up coming back. If they came back with all of their education, and with enough people doing that, we would eventually rise as a nation. But people never do, so the solution is to focus more on math and science so one day we will do something very successful. BURKE: So how is that compared to finishing school here? OMOH: here is total opposite. In American they focus more on English literature, how you speak, more of life skills then technical skills. You always know your hard math and science, but they always stress and say oh if this math and science is not for you, then that’s okay! You can be a professor in psychology or English or something like that. In Nigeria you don’t have an option. Especially from your parents, you have to do well and success is only measured on whether or not you do something in the math or science field. I’m sure there are very success English professors, but for Nigeria success is only if you become a doctor or engineer or business. You don’t really hear people who are happy that have other careers, even if they are giving back to the community, they only want people who are successful. So there’s a lot more stress on you getting good grades in Nigeria than there is here. If you’re not getting good grades, than you’re not making the best of what you’re given. If you are a C average student, you better be the best C average student that you are. In Nigeria, if you get a B or B+, that’s just as bad as an F. I’m so serious. I went to sleep so many times crying, I remember I had my first B that I got in college, cried for days. My mom and dad yelled at me, you could have sworn that I got an F on my report card or something. They said “are those other people better than you? Why can’t you get an A?” I was crying because it’s not bad getting a B on your transcript, but when your parents see that B, they are going to be very upset with you. So I like America better, it’s a lot more stress free. BURKE: So we know that you went to Grand Valley for school, but is there anything else you would like to talk about within your experience? Such as the environment, we talked about student organizations already, but are there any other networks that you did? OMOH: Give me an example BURKE: Was the student body interested in civil rights, or did you ever network or attend meetings with students who share your identity from other colleges? OMOH: From other colleges no I’ve never really met with other Universities, but the African student council; we do a lot of events and people from Michigan State University or Western University, people from other major universities. But as far as building relationships with people that identif with the way that I do from other universities, not so much. I could barely even do that here! Like I told you, African student council. It is a very good part of my life here at Grand Valley but I also felt that I was very limited Page 19 �there. It was nice to have a group of people; we had whites, Africans, Hispanics and even Korean! But identity is such a fragile thing and I thought I finally got over it, airight I’m me, I’m part of the African student council so that’s like got to be African, and then having to work through stereotypes within your own people is so rough. So I think that inhibited me from seeking deeper relationships. And then, I was really upset because I was going to get more familiar with the African refugee center, this year since I no longer have school and I could really dedicate working with individuals who first come under a refugee status and I found out a couple weeks ago that they had to close down because there wasn’t enough interest. As far as I know that was the only one in West Michigan. Hopefully one of these days I will have enough guts to start one in Grand Rapids, but I don’t plan on staying in Grand Rapids, I don’t know. BURKE: Where do you plan on going? OMOH: Somewhere down south, I like to travel. Obviously I came to America, and then I came to Michigan by myself, I want to go down south, I’ve never really experienced anywhere in down south before. I’ve been to the east coast; I haven’t been to the west coast. I think I’m more southern than I am western. I don’t think I have the personality to move to California, I want to find a nice little town down south with just the right amount of people. Not too big, not too small. Happy people. I heard there are a lot of happy people down south and I’m very big on hospitality. I know it’s kind of a silly reason to move but I like people that smile, ? I’m the kind of person that gets my energy from happy people, if you’re sad I’m sad and if you’re angry, I’m angry. I don’t become physically angry but I become tense. And I’m young and I want to work with refugees. I’m also going into the peace core. I was supposed to be going to Kenya for 27 months for the peace core in October, but they did the budget cuts and postponed it until March. And then I found out that they picked 7 people out of thousands and I was one of the people that they picked, but now they don’t have money for 7 people, only 3 or 4. So now I’m back to square one, trying to re-interview since I made the cut the first time. But I might not be doing it anymore because it takes a lot of emotional investment and they already took it away from me once, I was really depressed and don’t want to go through that again. My dream is to go back and open up a dentist for single mothers, less fortunate people that cannot afford health care. So within the peace core I was going to teach math and science in Kenya, and having that under my belt would give me essential life building skills to move on. But the government is jerking my chain so I think I will just go work in a refugee center, it’s the next best thing. BURKE: What made you decide to come to Michigan by yourself? OMOH: I think I’ve also told you this before, but it was the grass! BURKE: The grass? OMOH: ha-ha yes the grass! I played soccer in high school, and I mean I was good but I wasn’t that good so I was surprised when I got full scholarships to schools. I had a full ride soccer scholarship, and then two academic based scholarships. So I went to the schools and said okay I don’t have to pay for anything, but on the other hand I didn’t want to be stuck playing soccer for my whole college experience, and I was going into sciences and it would have been really hard to juggle all of them, and it was a private school. So then it was Grand Valley State University, University of Toledo, University of Page 20 �Illinois, I went to Champaign and it was too big for me, and Toledo was in the hood, it was good but it was surrounded by hood areas. And I grew up in the hood in Chicago and I’m trying to leave all of that. I want to go to an academic community! I had a vision and I came in the summertime, where it was so pretty with the grass. I guess the grass in Michigan is different from the grass in Illinois. Our grass doesn’t green like this, this is like good earth. My parents were just blown away by the grass, the trees and the flowers. I would rather come here with a class of only 30 people and I need to be able to have a teacher that knows my name, that when I go to their office hours, you recognize me and I’m not just another face. That was one of the reasons; the biggest one is still the grass though. BURKE: So what were your expectations for your education, did your parents have an influence? OMOH: My parents influenced me a lot on my decision, I always knew I wanted to do something in science, but my father wanted me to be a lawyer and my mother wanted me to be a medical doctor. It wasn’t until my sophomore year when I said I’m not being a doctor or a lawyer! I am going to be a dentist! That’s when I was getting my braces off and said I want to do something with the dentist now. Still to this day organic chemistry is my favorite chemistry in the whole wide world, you’re going to love it. I’ve always been interested in organic structures, but my senior year I realized that I get my energy from human interaction and even though I would be interacting with my patients, I want to be interacting with them on a personal level. So I still want to do something with my degree but I realized that dentist school isn’t for me. It’s not enough to just make people smile and happy, I’m not going to get enough interaction. iVy parents were very disappointed, my mom threatened to disown me. She is still upset with me for not going straight to dentist school; it was a big family argument. I’m not sure if it is like that in other African societies but I know that in Nigeria, from my experience, your parents set your role. They push you towards the math and sciences. I also lucked out that I liked it; if I didn’t like it then it would be a problem. BURKE: How did that vary within your siblings? Like with their college degrees? OMOH: No variation, but I will be the only science. My older sister has her masters in finance, my older brother is a computer engineer and my other sister is an industrial engineer and it’s me and my little brother who are going into business. I would be the variation within the social service job because obviously there’s no money in that, and if there’s no money than there’s no success. But I don’t see it like that. BURKE: Can you describe any historic events either in western Michigan or Nigeria that had an impact on you or your family, which you remember? OMOH: 9/11, I was in the 8 grade when it happened. It didn’t really impact me because I didn’t have any family there but it impacted me by the way the country as grieving, andhow to this day when 9/Il passes here and people are still recovering and crying. Like Isaid I don’t like stuff like that because I’m very motivated by my emotions, so seeing how the country all came together to get through that was very inspirational for me. Everyone was grieving, it didn’t matter what race, color or disability, everyone was grieving and it showed that even though we’re all different in some ways, it showed that as humans we Page 21 �support each other. I thought that was pretty cool. Actually one of my friends decided to be a firefighter because of that. BURKE: How has your perception of your identity changed as you grew older? OMOH: Like I said it’s changed, every couple of years I change how I identify myself. When I think of identity I think of race, I never think gender or sex, I always think race because that is such a big thing for me. My identity is always going to be from high school student, college student, grown adult, middle class to hopefully comfortable class. As far as status, single American. I never think that, I always think race. Right now I just consider myself black. If people ask me to tell them a little bit more, I say I actually have roots in Nigeria. But for now Ijust consider myself black. That might eventually change because I go through stages where I am like full on African! I wear all my African gear and tell the world. But right now I am just black. BURKE: So you think it will change? OMOH: Oh yeah most definitely. My identity changes with my maturity. When I first came to America I was like “I’m African, I need to separate and be an individual!” so I wore my Africanism quote on quote as a cloak for security to separate myself from people so I could be an individual. in high school, you don’t want to be the individual; you want to be the one with the coolest hair and a certain kind of style. So that was my token of individuality. In college I was Nigerian, not just African. Nigerian-American, I set myself as somebody who could be between African and African American. Now I just consider myself someone from an African descent, which is black. I can talk to Africans comfortably, I can talk to blackAmericans comfortably, I can talk to whites, and I can talk to anyone. I am just a woman from African descent. BURKE: Do you feel that members of your community have struggled from any civil rights in western Michigan? OMOH: Seeing as how I just moved to Grand Rapids, I don’t really know too many people in my community. Most of friends didn’t grow up in west Michigan; most of them grew up in Detroit or flint. So I don’t know, I can’t answer that question. BURKE: What issues do you feel still need civil rights advocacy? OMOH: Civil rights in reference to what? BURKE: Anything. OMOH: Gender discrimination, I am a little controversial in my definition of civil rights but I think everyone should be equal. Within race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference. I think that at the very basis of it that we are humans and the bible teaches us to love thy neighbor as thyself, so I feel that we need more work. I think there’s been a lot of work gone towards racial civil rights, and I know a lot of my friends think that it needs more work and I agree. But I think that sometimes civil rights only eclipses racial issues instead of conflicts with gender, sex, and sexual preference, to things like woman in Page 22 �different work fields. I’m always about equal opportunity. When I hear civil rights I think about race, I think that when people think of civil rights they shouldn’t only think of things that are racial related. BURKE: Is there anything else that you would like to add or comment on? OMOH: No not really, I think we summed it all up. I appreciate you interviewing me; it makes me feel that you value my opinion. BURKE: We do! Thank you very much. This concludes our interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca85e264db454a02aaa0faeb3a3be379.mp3 d4def79b0b0387a626b47f90ac928f50 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Omoh_Esiloza Title A name given to the resource Esiloza Omoh audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Omoh, Esiloza Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Burke, Briana Description An account of the resource Esiloza Omoh was born in Legos, Nigeria, raised in Chicago, Illinois, and attended Grand Valley State University. She graduated with a degree in Biomedical Science. She discusses her experiences with discrimination because of the color of her skin. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-09-30 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/12c40449e4fc9e1defbff92f471c7e1f.pdf 427557416c790d55c04b422ffe6b296d PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Richard Robinson Interviewers: Iris and Christa Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/5/2012 Biography and Description Richard Robinson discusses his experiences with discrimination as a gay male. Transcript IRIS: Okay, we are here today on April 5, 2012 in the LGBT Resource Center with our friend Richard Robinson conducting an interview; and Richard, we, obviously as I kind of laid out, we just really want to hear your story and our objective is to talk to someone who has been perceived as different by others or by society. So, to start with, how do you think that and why do you think that others perceive you as different? RICHARD: For a while, I didn’t know why people perceived me as different but there were just instances; I was bullied a lot in elementary and middle school. Particularly in middle school there was an incident where people were paying others to punch me in the arm because they knew it would get a reaction out of me. Why they perceived me as different, I could think that because I was sort of an introvert; I was kind of nerdy and I didn’t want, I didn’t.., act like the other boys my age did. I wasn’t into the same things they were. I really didn’t care about sports then; it never happened that I started caring about girls ever. Turns out that later, oh hey, you’re gay, that’s why and so I imagine for a while it was just I was a strange little queer kid and people didn’t know how to handle that; and so they, that sort of social normalization of pick on them until they do what everyone else is doing. That if you’re not acting the way everyone else is acting that you will be perceived as different and they will come after you for it. + IRIS: So what kind of things, I mean when you were little, do you think that really set you apart, I mean at a young age what.., how really different can you be? RICHARD: I was a little ham, I have a, I have a photo album of me flirting from that my mother gave me of all the pictures of me and throughout the ages of oh, 3-4 years old to like 16, 17. I just thought it was clever or funny but for whatever reason ever single picture has me with jazz hands in it. Not a single one was different. IRIS: What’s jazz hands? Page 1 �RICHARD: Yea, the hands are out and up in here. Except for one, there’s one that’s even, that’s even gayer than that. There’s this photo of me about to go on my first day of kindergarten or something and I’ve got my, I’ve got my arm in the crook of my backpack’s shoulder strap. I have my right leg up on one toe, and my knees bent and my head’s back going ‘Yayyy’ *Iaughter* It’s, it’s... I don’t know, I couldn’t teN you why I thought any of that was, was clever or a good at the time, it just was and everyone thought it was adorable so I think I just kept doing it. Oh it’s funny that one time it’s really good you should reinforce behavior in a child once, it’s going to keep going and going and going. It was never corrected, it was never told to stop, it was never tod anything and there was even pictures of my brother mocking me doing the exact same thing I’m doing. Hands on hips or whatever, and he’s but he’s scrunched his face up and he’s brought his eyes towards his nose doing a kind of fish face of what I’m doing; just to be funny, just to sort of poke fun at his older brother. IRIS: So, from a very young age then, you kind of felt this identity... RICHARD: There was something, something going on but I, I I have an aunt and uncle that live in San Francisco for a long time and I showed them that album when I went to visit them for a few months. They, they, my aunt looked at that and she said ‘Rick I’m sorry, if I had seen this, I would have told them’ *Iaughter* IRIS: Told your parents? RICHARD: Told them, that I was, that I was gay. *Iaughter* I eventually did come out when I was 17 years old going into my senior year of high school. I decided that I wasn’t going to do it anymore; I screwed up my courage and I told everybody. I just, I shot gunned it. Before that, there were too people that knew sort of to let the pressure off but at that time I just, I emailed some friends, I spoke to some over the phone, I told some in person. But all that was after I told my mother, I told her first and then everybody else found out from that. IRIS: How did your mother react? How was your family? RICHARD: I came to her... I was going to do it the year before but turns out that my dad wanted to get divorced and so that put pressure on the family and so I didn’t. I guess I sort of held back because I didn’t want to make it worse on people; I didn’t want to go ‘Oh their getting a divorce oh and by the way’. IRIS: Oh, but that’s so sad that that would make it worse. That’s just a fact of life. RICHARD: Yea it is, it is but I’m in Grad school now and I’ve always been sort of a little researcher. If I don’t know something I know how to look things up; and so when I figured out that I was homosexual the internet was just around. I was, it was 1998-9 that I started figuring it out and so... The internet was really just starting but there were already a couple resources on-line. There was a couple websites I frequented, coming out stories, how to come out, you know those things. And all the statistics on what that is... You might want to pause for a minute while we wait for it to get quiet. *turns off recording device* Page 2 �IRIS: Ok RICHARD: Resuming recording. IRIS: Yes, so as we were saying Richard you knew that there was always something maybe a little off. When did you, when were you able to put words with this? RICHARD: There’s, there’s three events that I remember quite clearly that lead up to it. One I was five years old in kindergarten I was, I had been transferred to a different kindergarten than I was in originally because the teacher had accidentally left me in the bathroom when they took the rest of the kids out to recess. So I come out of the bathroom and then there’s nobody in the kindergarten trailer room. That was rather frightening, I panicked. I was only reminded of that But only at my new elementary school and there’s this , there’s this other boy whose house, was sort of friends with, his name was Phillip and for whatever reason, I don’t know why but I did the whole grab hand, knuckle, kiss thing. That I had seen in Disney movies or elsewhere; and three years later or so about seven or eight years old I’m at the bus garage with my mom because she’s a bus driver and my brother’s there we’re both in the same school and we ride the bus home with her to the garage and we go home in her car. And, my brother asks my mom ‘What does gay mean?’ and I pipe in because I loved answering questions and I say ‘Well it means you’re stupid or something’ and my mom goes ‘No, it’s when men like other men and women like other women’. And we’re like.. ohh. We thought it was kind of weird, but we didn’t think aboutto for too long we just sort of went about our day; no big deal whatsoever to either of us. But that is one of those instances where I was first able to connect... well then that mustbe bad. Because why would people use it in this way without it being bad; there’s no reason too. It’s either its bad or these other kids are all idiots, which is true but (laughter). And then I’m thirteen years old, oh geez when was this? Freshman high school, so that was makes me yea about thirteen, fourteen years old and I’m in gym class and my eyes lingered a little too long on some of the guys playing basketball and I go ‘Ohhh crap’ and that, it was just very clear right then and there that that started about three or four years of really bad depression. Really really bad depression because every single, because I’m still hearing faggot, fudge packer, gay, queer all day long everywhere. Every five seconds there’s another shout in the hallway or someone saying something completely ignorant around me and once I had had made the connection that what I am is bad, I got really worried and by only and when I get worried about something like that I research. I look up everything I can, what is this? What does this mean? What’s going and the internet had just come around, so I’m going online, I’m looking up comingoutstories.com, other places like that and I find the statistics about what happens to kids who come out before 17, 18 years old and it turns out its scary things like I out of every 4 of them is kicked out of their homes that were 4 times as likely to attempt suicide. That were 10 times as likely to be bullied in school; that was already happening, was already happening. I was already a target for a lot of people. And when you, when you’re bullied like that there’s no way to fight back because their being subversive about it; their being quiet about it, their being... their doing it in ways that can’t be seen and the only response that you can give back to them is to try and humiliate them in return but the only way to do that is to do it more openly, publicly and to actually fight back. When you fight back, you get in trouble because you started something. There was, there’s no finesse amongst, amongst teachers that I had were about dealing with bullying. It was only Page 3 �whoever was the most overt about the incident; they were the one who’d get in trouble. So you don’t do anything, you just sit there... IRIS: So you didn’t do anything? RICHARD: You grin and take it, for a long time and you grin and take it. I ended up later getting some piece about casting the right people out, flipping over a couple of desks. But here’s someone sitting in my chair and (told them to move and they didn’t so I flipped them out of it because that’s the only way to deal with it. If you don’t respond physically, if you don’t show them you won’t be a target, you will be a target. And that’s sad but that’s just the way it had to work out but anyway there’s all these bad things that happened. That if you come out and, you can say, I can say things oh I know my friend wouldn’t do that to me or I don’t believe that would happen or that would be really bad it’s still a 75% chance that I won’t happen if I tell them. But it’s.., it was no comfort that because it’s not true that I knew them well enough to say that because how many of those kid who were kicked out could say they knew their family well enough to say that ‘No they would never do that to me?’ It happened anyway; how many loving families are split up by this because who knows who’s secretly in the back of their minds going ‘I can’t handle the thought of having a gay child’. IRIS: That’s a lot, I mean and so you said you came out when you were 17. RICHARD: Yea IRIS: And you had been hiding this for a couple years. RICHARD: Yea, four years at that point. IRIS: and how, I mean, really how deal with that? RICHARD: Grades were shit... IRIS: Really? RICHARD: My graduating high school GPAwas 2.1. IRIS: Wow RICHARD: And to say that I’m now in grad school it’s like you can see what a big of a gap that is. My ACT score without doing a thing; without studying, without caring, without really knowing what was on the test was a 27 that was about an hour before the test began. My reading comprehensions were 31 so I’m in the 90th percentile for at least one metric on that test. But my grades were shit and that wasn’t the only reason. I was kind of contemptuous of the, of the material there were giving us. Where I would, I would get... I would not do any homework then I would ace the exam and be passing the class whereas the person next to me would have done all the homework, had failed the exam and weren’t passing the class. So I didn’t see a need to do a lot of the work to get by was one and it wasn’t challenging, it wasn’t interesting and I didn’t care not to mention I had so much other crap to deal with. So I’m stuck in this prison for 8 hours a day where my worst hated enemies who don’t want to be around me, I don’t want to be around them; but we’re stuck in classes together, we go to the same lunch hour, we’re we use the Page 4 �same locker room for gym. But the way to deal with that is just I got into a, I found a few safe people to be around that didn’t, that weren’t cruel to me and then I just spent as much time around them as I could. IRIS: That was going to be my next question. Do you have any friends from high school, people that you still talk to? RICHARD: Of course, I have three I have three really good friends. Tim, Tony and Justin; Justin is still the best friend to me in the world and we, we talk every week. Tony and Tim both joined the military afterwards and Tony’s got an interesting story. This was one of those things that could have gone really poorly for me. I came out to him by email and I called him up tried to tell him to check his email but he wasn’t there so I had to give his stepdad the message so like ‘Could you ask him to check his email’ he’s like ‘Yea, airight got it’ and he closes the phone. Airight so I’m worried here that would throw a curve but that wasn’t who I was coming out to anyway and I wait til the next day, I barely sleep that night, wait til the next day, call Tony and go ‘Tony did you check your email?’ And his response was ‘Yea, I’ll be right over’. And he’s coming over my house and I got maybe, ten minutes to think about what’s going to happen? What is it? Is he going to come over with a baseball bat? What’s in his hand when he gets to my door? And I open the door and he’s just got the same goofy expression that’s always on there and we chat for a while; we talk and he comments that I seem much happier now that I’ve told people and I was. I was much, much happier that I told people but I didn’t know what he was going to show up at that door with... and so it really freaked me out for a little while and what was really funny was there’s another incident with his stepdad. Where, I’ve been friends with Tony since middle school. It’s already been five years that I’ve known Tony and I’ve known him for fifteen at this point and , I’m going over to his house and we had slept in the same room, the same bed just as a sleepover and having fun, play video games, guitar, that sort of thing. But the first time I did that after coming out to him, Tony told his stepdadand his mom and his stepdad’s kind of, kind of weirded out by it, kind of weirded out that Tony’s sleeping in the same room let alone the same bed as the gay kid and he’s going ‘Should they be in the same room?’. Like but really, really really tapping around it but not really forcing to say it, like should they really. But Tony’s mom pipes in saying ‘What is he going to do Dave?’ (laughter) I don’t know, ‘What is he going to do Dave, it’s Richard, Dave’ (laughter) IRIS: And of course it was the man who would say that and the women who would say ‘Come on’. RICHARD: Well... Yea, there’s some truth to that but it was just... It was an interesting view, into the dynamic of those two... so, it was hilarious. It was one of the funny things that happened to me but when I say I came out at 17, I really want to get this part in. There’s incidents of before that, that happened to me that would have been worse had people had known. Was at a family reunion when I was fifteen, just before I turned sixteen; so about maybe 4, 3 or 4 months before my dad says he wants a divorce. I think, I think so and I’m at a family reunion and a video game that I liked had just come out. I had my own computer and I had this game, Diablo 2, and I had the collector’s edition. I had the game manual and this thing had come out three days prior and I am forced to go to this family reunion. I did not want to go to this family reunion. I wanted to sit home; I don’t know who those people are. I don’t know any of their names, they’re not my family; they’re sort of my parents family, in a strange way. Page 5 �Even they don’t like the very much, but no, we’re going to this family reunion, fine. Alright, I’m bringing this book. I bring the game manual and I’m wearing one of my snarky, black nerd T-shirts because I’m a 15 year old kid who’s questioning his sexual orientation. I don’t know what else to do but to wear a black shirt (laughter) With some silly nerd comment and it might have been the yellow sign with that, says land party animal with people sitting at computers, I don’t remember. But my great Uncle Val sees my sitting over there all alone all by myself, sort of moppy, sort of pissed off; kind of like ‘, I really don’t want to be here’. And he asks to see the book I’m looking at because the front of it has got fiery letters and gold trim and spikes and it looks all demonic because that’s the game, that’s what it is. And he asks to look at it for a while and he flips through it and he sees all the artwork in there and he sees what they’re talking about; demons and hell’s spawn and it’s the worst kind of video game you could show to an apparently Evangelical Christian. He proceeds, to slide that back over to me, goes to my mother and starts offering her an exorcism for me. No joke, tells her about this time that he and his other churchier friends or whatever held down this kid who dressed in all black and gothicy from the high school and sprayed holy water at them. That’s the kind of people that are on my mom’s side of the family and we left immediately. Much,much praise to my mother for just making that decision to just getting us the hell out of there at that point. But it was, I think back on that; the thing was kind of funny at the time, it was absurd but if people had, if it had been known that I was homosexual at thatevent, that could have gone much much much worse. That could have been much worse for me and I think would my parents would my parents have made the same decision that they did without having regards to his offer. Yea, they probably would have. She changed contacts, she changed information and who knows. And so I’m kind of frightened now thinking back on that day.. I could have, that did not always go my way. Not in the different scenarios I could run, it’s true that that could have been bad. But my parents were worried about me but they weren’t that worried about me. IRIS: I know you said you had a brother, a mom and a dad.. RICHARD: And a sister. IRIS: And a sister. So what kind of conversations did you have with them? RICHARD: I didn’t. I didn’t. I told my family after the divorce, my mom was a bit of a gossip so I tell her and she tells everybody. And then I proceed to not talk to anybody else about it for years. Because everyone just goes ‘Oh’ and them no one talks about it. It was, it was the one of the most dis-heartening parIs of things that happened. She tells everyone and then nobody ever bothers to ask me about it. I didn’t want to get to tell the story about what had been going on with me to any of my family. Not my brother didn’t ask, my sister didn’t ask... they still haven’t asked. My dad, she told my dad during the divorce proceedings, before the divorce was finalized my mother told my dad this thing that I had told her and what I really don’t know is I don’t know if she told him out of malice; I don’t know if she told him to make him feel guilty. But then he never came to me for four years I didn’t talk to him about it, we didn’t mention it. I knew he knew, he knew I knew he knew. IRIS: But not a word was spoken? RICHARD: Not a word was spoken... not any contacts. Page 6 �IRIS: That’s not healthy. RICHARD: It wasn’t and it really depressed me a little bit more but I was out, I had friends and people knew and I didn’t have to hide it from anybody else anymore. I didn’t have to worry about me giving back to them; so if they didn’t want to talk to me about it 1 kind of had this ‘Screw them ‘approach about to it. If they don’t want to, if they’re interested enough to come and talk to me about it then fine. And they since have said ‘Well we just don’t know what to say’. Anything, say anything; ask me a question. Ask me something that you’re comfortable knowing; I will answer it truthfully. You can ask me anything; I’m supposed to be your son, your brother whatever but nope, I didn’t get much of anything out of them. And we’ve sort of made peace out of that it’s just so far in the past now, it was... God, I’ve been out of the closet for, this will be ten years this July. IRIS: So, when did you feel comfortable enough to start relationships openly, open relationships with men? RICHARD: Well, there’s the other kicker because it’s hard enough meeting people when you’re gay, we’re dealing with as much smaller portion of the population. Grand Valley here is a much higher percentage of the population here is women than it is men at Grand Valley alone. IRIS: It is, it really is. RICHARD: It’s like 60: 40 or something like that. Reality I should have gone to Tech which is like 30% women 70% men but anyways, I was bit of a reclusive nerd in every other sense so not only was I gay in a small population, I was the reclusive nerd. My masculine.., what do I want to say? Not mentors but peers were intellectual, largely unsexualized, competitive, compassionate men. Other, other nerd, other people; it was all about seeing who’s smarter than the other ones. It was all about seeing who could figure out this puzzle or who can beat this person at this game, this very, very intellectual game. IRIS: So all your friends were nerds? (laughter) RICHARD: Yea, all my friends were nerds. I was a nerd, my friends were nerds and we already... there’s this thing where because when you grow up and you’re a teenager you supposed to learn to sort have relationships; we had little stupid relationships. When you’re gay, you don’t get those. We don’t learn how to date in high school; we don’t learn how to approach people in high school; we don’t know how to say those things in high school because we’re not given the opportunity to because if we do, there’s a good chance that we’re going to get assaulted from it. There’s a good chance we’re going to hit on the wrong person and it’s not going to go well for us. So we don’t and on top of that I already don’t know how to talk to people because I’m a nerd; since gotten over it but I was... talk about socially awkward people... look at a table of kids who are only brought together because they’re outcasts or because they’re all a little bit smarter than the curve. That’s the group of people I came up in so I really didn’t have any... in high school, community college, undergrad. I really didn’t start having relationships until I got of undergrad and I got my, I moved to California. My aunt and uncle were the ones who lived in California. I did my undergrad here at Grand Valley in Anthropology and part of that was I got to do an archaeological field school which qualified me to be an archaeologist and I was. I joined the forest service for a service as an intern, and I was an archaeological field technician intern. I got paid to hike Page 7 �around the Sierra Mountains for a summer and it was one of the best times of my life. But after that, I had family that lived just north of San Francisco and they let me stay with them until I found a job and I got to live in San Francisco. lt wasn’t the great... it was sort of this really ignorant thing I did because I think, ‘Aha’ I just came to the gay city; I just came to the place that is the place for it. But I get there and I find out it’s not younger people, it’s the gay men’s population there is in their 40s now so it’s much older than I am. I was 23 at the time but whatever I had fun there. I was there for seven months; I lost my job and the city’s so expensive. I was paying twice the Michigan mortgage for an apartment making less than $30,000 a year so it was not going to no... And I moved back... I moved in with my mom she was in North Carolina at the time. So I go from San Francisco to Winston Salem, North Carolina *Iaughter* IRIS: Yea, that’s a big jump. RICHARD: Right it’s just, it’s not the... it wasn’t a very good, wasn’t a very good move for me but I eventually made it back here got into grad school. IRIS: I’m just checking on the time. RICHARD: No it’s fine. IRIS: So when you came back here, when you came back, I’m just interested in like what kind of relationships have you had? RICHARD: Not many, none that I would call serious boyfriends, just a couple flings here and there; nothing that’s... kind of once, nothing serious now but that’s always been... there was no point in my life where I knew where I could see far enough ahead where I could see something. Since the divorce.., since my parents’ divorce, about 11, 12 years ago now, I have moved on average two or three times a year. Either in the same city because the apartment we couldn’t keep it or something happened or we needed a cheaper place or whatever, it just happened that I lived in 16, 17 different places since the divorce 12 years ago and right now. In some of those years I moved 4 times; a couple of those years I didn’t move for the whole year but a bunch of those years I moved a lot and.. IRIS: *fly interrupts interview* Oh that fly is going to bug me. RICHARD: Yea, it’s getting to me too. But I never thought that any of that was conducive enough to actually finding something that was longer term or serious because why? I don’t know what my life’s going to be; I don’t know where I’m going. I went from Grand Rapids, Michigan to the Sierra Nevada Mountains to San Francisco for seven months to Winston Salem, North Caroilna to Charlotte, North Carolina to Detroit for a little bit, back to Grand Rapids. I lived in Holland for a month, found a job at a milk factory. Moved to Standale to my friend’s parent’s house; paid them rent for a bed. Lost that job, got back into Grand Valley to finish off a minor; ran out of money and got a job selling natural gas door to door. This, so right up until a couple years ago, just before I started grad school, I did not know about this program that I am in until two months before I was in it. Two months before grad school started in that fall, I found out about the Massive Public Administrative program and I did a bunch of research into what Public Administration was and I go ‘This is cool; I want to do this. I want to study this stuff; this Page 8 �sounds great’. And my job in San Francisco had been with a non-profit, I had just worked for government. And then I go and talk to them about it and I’m saying m graduating GPA from here was 3.2 and I tell them that I had this experience in government work and the non-profit sector and I would like to pursue that and they go ‘Oh you’re a shoe-in. Just get us your letters of recommendation and we can get you in for the fall. And I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried but it seemed as if, that it wasn’t going to work. It seemed as if I had missed my opportunity that something wasn’t going to come in on time and in the, the Wednesday before classes started I got my acceptance letter. I got my admittance letter that I’m in grad school now. And I’m like ‘Holy crap. What can I do?’ and the next day and I’m in the graduate student office and I’m going ‘Can I do this?’ and their like ‘Yes, go talk to Financial Aid.’ So I go talk to financial aid; I sign-up for financial aid on Thursday. I sign-up for classes on Friday; I borrow money from a friend on Monday to buy a book and I’m in class that night *Iaughter* And that’s was my entry into grad school and it’s been indicative of my entire time since high school. I have never known where I was going to be; it has been so tumultuous that I have never felt ready to be in anything. I’ve never known anyone. When you move that much; when you move from different towns, from different places, you never get a chance to be a part of a community. IRIS: So are you from Grand Rapids? RICHARD: No IRIS: Where are you from? RICHARD: I’m from Clarkston, Michigan. If you know where the DTE Energy Music Theater is? CHRISTA: No IRIS: No, I’m from Ohio. *Iaughter* RICHARD: Oh, it’s a Detroit suburb in northern Oakland County. IRIS: Okay and that’s where you went to elementary and high school? RICHARD: That’s where I went to elementary, high school, middle school, the whole thing. My entire, my mom’s from that town. My entire families from that town, except my dad; my dad’s from Ypsi... Ypsilanti which is closer to Detroit but more about Ann Arbor area. I didn’t even know about Grand Valley until several months before I came here the first time. It’s been by the seed of my pants, doing this whole higher education thing and... IRIS: Yea, I completely understand that’s kind of how I am too. This is the third university that I’ve gone to; I’m always moving about, trying to find the next best thing. But that’s really interesting.., but where do you see yourself? What do you plan ondoing? Do you want to live in Michigan? Do you want to live in Grand Rapids? RICHARD: Yea, out of anything else, out all the places I’ve been, California’s beautiful but there’s something about Michigan that I just find so endearing. I love, I love this state. I love all the trivia, I know Page 9 �about it. I know so many little things about this place that are just so strange. I go elsewhere like if I went to Ohio I don’t know if we’d find the same sort of strangeness about the state. Like for instance, this has nothing to do with the interview but it’s funny. There’s this town in Michigan called Novi; Novi is the number six stop out of Lansing from Lansing to Detroit. So Novi, N-O-V-I is the number six stop. IRIS: Oh so you just randomly know that? RICHARD: The name of the town, the name of the town in Novi it was the number six stop. They sort of built a town around a train station and caHed it Novi. (laughter) IRIS: What does Novi mean? RICHARD: Let me write it out for you. This is why it’s hilarious. Number six.. Iris & CHRISTA: Ohhhhhhhh. I get it. Really, that’s why they named it that? RICHARD: It’s called Novi. Michigan is full of liftle shit like that and it’s just, (just find it so amusing that that stuff exists. That’s why, that’s why that’s the number six stop. IRIS: How do you feel, I mean I know you said you’ve been to a lot of different places but as far as like culture goes, I think people are different everywhere.. RICHARD: Well yea, there’s... for the lower belt line of Michigan, there’s largely three groups that you can vaguely discern. There’s people who live around Detroit, auto industry. Every single one of my uncles, my dad, my dad’s family, all of them – auto industry. I have connections to GM, Chrysler, Ford. I have people who work in the UAW just as part of that organization. Every single family out There is completely, inextricably linked to that industry. You get to the middle of the state, it’s state workers. You ger around Lansing, the people that work for the state. There’s this middle bit around Lansing, Ann Arbor that’s much, much different than the Detroit suburbs in the Detroit area. And then Western Michigan that’s this whole other culture in its own. I mean these middle two are similar but within Michigan itself just the lower ha’f of the lower peninsula is three completely distinct culture groups and more if you want to start dividing by ethnic lines and insular cultures and specific countries of origin. Michigan itself is so incredibly varied within it, even if it is mostly white people. IRIS: Especially west Michigan. RICHARD: Yea, especially west Michigan. But yea, I think I interrupted the question that Michigan, that other places are so different. IRIS: Oh yea, so I mean do you, do you feel like there’s more out there? I mean I feel like especially west Michigan, just coming into Grand Rapids I feel like I’m coming from a big bubble a smaller bubble. I mean I’m just, my question, I feel like you have all these ideas and your very inspirational. RICHARD: There’s a couple interesting things about Grand Rapids itself. Grand Rapids is the second largest city for philanthropy per capita in the country. Some west coast city, whichever Bill Gates lives in. Page 10 �IRIS: Seattle? RICHARD: Yea, so I think Seattle counts as the highest place for philanthropy per, as a percentage of the city’s GDP is there and then Grand Rapids is second in line. So if I’m doing non-profit work, Grand Rapids is one of the best places to be but there’s also a lot of competition. I mean, largely my plan is to take a job wherever I can get it. If I have to move to get work, I will. I have no compunctions about leaving the state; I’ve left it before. I’d love to stay, love to stay but if someone hands you an offer ‘Here’s $45,000 a year’, I’m going to leave. IRIS: So your main concern is work then and not so much finding those new people, different people building different relationships? RICHARD: I have preferences; I’d love to live on the coast again; east coast, west coast. On the water, as close to the ocean as I can. And this largely is the same here I mean I live reaHy close to the lake. If you haven’t had a chance to go out to Lake Michigan, wait til the summer. IRIS: I can’t wait; I’ve never been. RICHARD: it’s amazing. Absolutely fantastic beach; really smooth sand, clear water and you get in and it’s not salty. Its fresh water and you’re like ‘Holy crap, this lake is gigantic’. IRIS: It’s cold though. RICHARD: It won’t be warm enough til about late July. 1aughter* Til then, it’s still going to be about 40 degrees that water, it’s crazy. But I loved living in San Francisco; I love being that close to the ocean. I worked in an office where I overlooked the bay from my window that was five feet from me and I looked out one day and there was a pirate ship. Someone had a mock pirate ship; it had a mast, sail, mooring lines and all that. IRIS: See that’s my thought that people who are weird, are different you like to push theboundaries, they can do that. On the west coast like no one would think anything of it whereas here, it’s ilke someone. I say, one of my friends came to class, he’s going through his transition this summer. He came to class in a kilt, a skirt and everyone was like ‘Oh my God’ what I mean like I just knew. I mean, I just, I don’t know. How do you feel? RICHARD: Grand Rapids is getting better. I mean look at how small this city is and you realize there’s four gay bars downtown. Four. So this place is small it’s insular but there’s a community here and Grand Rapids was, in 1994 one of the first cities to enact any ordinance barring people from being evicted from their housing for being gay. That was 1994 that Grand Rapids did that. The current mayor, he was on the board; he signed that. He put that forward through the city; he was on the city board, city council then so he did that and that, so he’s still there I don’t care that he’s Republican at all but he signed that; he got that through in 1994 and he’s still an ally now. And so what we can ma e some broad strokes about it but I really.., you’ve got to dig into the city to know that for certain. And not to mention, Grand Rapids is fantastic for food. It’s a foodies paradise here if where to look. Page 11 �IRIS: Peppinos? RICHARD: Oh no no no, you haven’t even scratched the surface. IRIS: I think I found my new favorite pizza when I had Peppinos it was so good. RICHARD: Yea and it is extremely good but you haven’t scratched the surface of Grand Rapids food; it’s amazing. There is a woman named Olga, she opened, she’s Haitian and she opened a Haitan-Creole restaurant in Easttown called Shea Olga. And it’s this absolutely amazing food! It’s absolutely amazing. You can get black rice mushroom gumbo there. You can get, you can get lamb in fried plantains. You get Haitian coffee and ginger tea and it is the best food I have ever had. It’s in Easttown. IRIS: My mom’s Dominican so that’s my favorite too. RICHARD: Go to Shea Olga, you will not be disappointed; absolutely, amazing and the little things like that are everywhere. There’s two Papoosarie’s in town. There’s a Papoosarie from Honduras and there’s one, I think they’re from somewhere South American but there’s just a fantastic variety of food from all over the world is in the middle if Grand Rapids and people wouldn’t know it when you look at Grand Rapids but if you start branching out a little bit from downtown, you start looking around, it’s there. And it’s getting better, it’s getting so much better in Grand Rapids and as long as the metropolitan city, there’s very little you can discern between them. I mean yes cities have their cultures and cities have their own places but if cities get big enough, there’s going to be two things happening. The gays are going to show up and there’s going to be better food. *Iaughter*Thats really the only two things I require. (laughter) Which is another reason why San Francisco was awesome because there was more bars and restaurants per person in San Francisco than anywhere else in the planet. It’s a tiny city that seven miles by seven miles wide with only 700,000 people in it but the bars and restaurants per person is more than New York, is more than Beijing, is more than any other city anywhere. IRIS: Have you ever been to Washington, D.C? RICHARD: I have, it was a middle school trip I was about eleven years old. I went to Washington, D.C. IRIS: Really? I went there recently. I think you’d really enjoy it. RICHARD: I think I would too. There’s sort of this political environment that I’d be really happy about. I even told a few professors that I should get into politics eventually but I’m a gay atheist in West Michigan. There’s no chance for me to be elected locally here; I’d have to move. IRIS: Yea, you might have to move. RICHARD: I might have to move. IRIS: Wow, that’s funny. Alright well let’s see what else we want to talk about. RICHARD: We’ve gone over where I’ve been; we’ve gone over where I’m from. I gave enough, I gave all the pieces to my little progress. Not necessarily in order but close enough. Page 12 �IRIS: Yea not in order but that’s okay. airight, well, I think, let’s talk now about kind of what you’re doing at the moment. I know we met you at the Transpectrum Transforum. So you’re a member of what exactly. I know transgender that you were saying is an umbrella is an umbrella term but how do... RICHARD: Yes, I’m not at all a member of their community but I am, I try to be a strong ally. I try not to draw too much attention to it. Because 1 don’t want, I’m really conscious of not trying to make, trying to be an ally without making their pain about me. Like I’m just going to be there and I’m going to support as much as I can because if you talk about pain people go through. Theirs is so much worse. So much worse and just to measurably statistics are so much worse. The things you can see; the rate of suicide, the rate of homelessness; the rate of poverty all the soulful metrics are far worse if you are transgender in this country versus just being a member of the LGB community. And somewhere in the sexuality spectrum if you start breaking through the gender spectrum, things get worse pretty quickly for you. IRIS: Where so you see the LGBT community going? I mean I personally through even coming to Grand Valley and taking something these classes on diversity and women and gender studies, I feel like these future generations are getting more and more educated. No one thinks.., no one would openly say ‘Yes, I’m racists’ in myopinion as we’re progressing throughout time. So I feel like there’s only a matter of time before everyone is equal, no one can be excluded and no one can have their rights taken away from them because that’s wrong. 1/ RICHARD: We’d hope so; we’d hope so but our history tells us something different. We must always remain vigilant about the victories we have gained because if you look at the area that is now Germany, in the I 880s and 90s, the Jewish people were getting voting rights, property rights, and protections from the government. They’re starting to make all the gains that gay people are making right now. Civil rights protections, ilberties; they advert, they participate more openly in fully in government and then 50 years later, look what happens. Not even 50 years later shorter than that. Within a generations lifetime, things completely go to hell for them and we’re There living there in that part of the world. Yea, we can say that it’s wrong for them to take these things away from us but by no means that relieve us of the responsibility of making sure that the victors we gained aren’t lost further down the line. It only takes the right set of circumstances or people to start fear mongering and grab the other again and to put all the blame for all societies’ ills all on a group of people. Number one, we can stop them then we all would be better off and so, I disagree on that point but I... IRIS: I just feel like that once all these old people kind of die off. (laughter) all the stubborn old people will give up. RICHARD: It’s not.., we sort of want to put the blame on an older generation that’s that didn’t know any better. But I’ve met enough of that generation who do sort of know better that it’s just a cultural thing. It’s just a piece, it’s just an idea that’s been spread generationally and yes young people are disproportionally to be more supportive. But it’s disproportional, it’s not all of it. It’s not everybody. So those gains that we’ve made with the older generation, we made with them and you keep making with their grandchildren, we should. But, I totally understand. My grandma blamed the internet; she said I was gay because I was up on that computer and he saw those guys and he’s like that and he said I want to be like that, that’s what he did. I see that but where I see it going is, I’d like to see it go this direction. Page 13 �Right now we’re sort of tacking letters onto the LGBQTIAIAA bit and it’s creating this long alphabet soup list because everybody with a different starting letter or even the same starting letter on the sexuality spectrum feels the need to put it in there for our presentation. Just for sake of simplicity, I’d like people to start saying gender sexual minorities; GSM. GSM, GSM, GSM, GSM,GSM. Alright, covers everybody alright every area that we’ve discovered that’s part of the human sexuality spectrum, fine. It’s in there. IRIS: I’m sorry, you said gender... RICHARD: Sexual minorities. IRIS: Minorities. RICHARD: Gender and sexual minorities. So it’s just anybody who’s off the norm in these two axis of human experience. We can talk about in this way but really what where it needs to be is it needs to be something that doesn’t have to be talked about. It needs to be something that doesn’t have to be mentioned. That, where people don’t assume that you’re straight until you say otherwise. IRIS: I completely agree. I think it’s so sinful. It’s sinful to judge other people just because they’re different from you. You know what I mean? Their life and what they do had absolutely no effect on you so why are you blaming them? Why are you showing so much hatred? And it’s just I don’t understand why people care so much. It’s really disheartening; it’s really beyond me. RICHARD: It’s sexist but in the end it’s about male privilege more than anything else. They see a gay man as being less than, less man than, other than, other men. RICHARD: What you do when someone is showing less masculinity is that you provoke them into being masculine again, it’s that bullying thing. Women who are homosexual, its almost seen as where lesbians are sorta more accepted in a weird way, sort of, by the straight male people most because oh that sexy. They like looking at it but they’re completely unwilling to make that sort of the same thing as gay; but they see women trying to be more like men because they’re dating women, but they see men trying to be more like women because they’re dating men and that’s bad. Women are rising on that masculinity spectrum and gay men are lowering on the spectrum and so they see this level and that sets that’s where the whole hornophobia comes from especially, for transgendered people, especially against male to female transsexuals where they’re literally changing themselves. IRIS: So you think that homophobia comes from this emasculated point of view that our country has? RICHARD: Everything, every trait that you could supply to masculinity is something that could not be applied to a feminine perspective as well unless it’s just not feminine. There are no positive traits to masculinity it4s always things that are just not feminine; you’re strong not weak, don’t be weak, don’t show weakness. It’s not be strong as much as don’t be weak. There’s no, there’s nothing that’s that we can point to and say ah hah that’s a strong masculine idea that we should be to be men, no it’s all just about not being feminine. And so when we do say as the sexual minorities that’s not our experience, it’s certainly not the normal masculine, it must be feminine. It’s really its strange and it’s stupid. If we can Page 14 �just get over that and break through that sexist boundary with more people, I think that things would be a lot better. IRIS: So 1 was reading an article, it was called the erotic and it was in in my Women and Gender Studies class, it was talking about how we are so trained to suppress our erotic, meaning ourselves, our true colors, loving affection that everyone and anyone can show, fear, just love in all of its forms and how especially men are trained to just say no. Do you feel like you are more freed because you’re not held to that standard of masculinity and how do you think we should go about future generations so men don’t have to suppress so much? Boys already know that they’re not supposed to cry and little boys already know to not be a sissy. RICHARD: 1 don’t know that sounds flowery to me and so I don’t know how much I can say about it without reading what she said but it sounds like an appeal to emotion at that point, and oh yeah this natural state of everyone being happy and lovey dovey towards each other, mmmm, I don’t buy it. As an anthropologist 1 don’t buy it, as someone who studies human cultures I don’t buy it. I don’t buy it because that’s going to bring the heart break that going to bring powerful emotions in the other direction as well. As much as we say just love each other, love each other, there’s only so much you can do. Some people you don’t necessarily like you, don’t have to like you, and you should be free to express whatever emotions you have. Whatever its sexual orientation you have with other consenting adults great, but to say that there’s something blocking people from experiencing them that themselves, I don’t really know how true that is and it would be very hard to say how true that is so it sounds good so I think she gets away with saying things like that. But what I would just like to see is, I would just like to see, whatever’ you’re sexuality is, to not be so demonized and put down by others.f we can just allow people to grow in their teenage years to just sort of not care that would be great. IRIS: How do we do that though? RICHARD: I have no idea, but just people coming out and saying I’m not straight, do that enough times and suddenly everybody in this country would know that they know somebody. I don’t care how small your family is, I don’t care how small your circle of friends is, somebody you know is somewhere, somehow off straight on the sexuality spectrum, and that personal connection is what bridges the boundary and because we can show up anywhere, at any time, with any family, at any moment, the child that you have, that child might be gay any child that’s born might be gay. It doesn’t matter there’s no positive correlation in any ethnic group, there’s no change in any country of origin, there’s no change anywhere; we are the hidden minority, we are the surprise minority, we show up ha ha and guess what. It can’t be seen, it can’t be tested for, at least not yet, but when we get there, when we get to where people can just be more and more comfortable as we break through that line of just being more and more comfortable with saying yes, and staring down those who say that we should be quiet, say that we shouldn’t do that, that’s where we make victories; and how ever it turns out, if it ends up being that everyone loves each other and the be happy thing that sounds like what she’s, talking about, great that’s fine, but I don’t think it needs to be talked about in that way. We just gotta be careful about those appeal to emotion bits because there’s sort of this line in the LGBT community because the gay rights movement started in the 60’s and 70’s free love era, I think there’s some hold overs about what this Page 15 �means, and I don’t think there all right I think there’s some things that are in fact not true about that sort of everybody love each other, everyone be happy free love, everyone’s sort of bisexual; like, no It’s not, never. IRIS: So you’re a realist? RICHARD: I care about data and what’s happening and I want to know what’s real. Everything else I could care less, I’m atheist; can’t show me evidence, I don’t want to hear about it. IRIS: Do u have any other questions? CHRISTA: I think we got mostly everything IRIS: Actually one question, do you think that if you would have come out at an earlierage, I know you said things definitely would have been different, but do you think everything would have been worse or, because I mean you were really, really depressed hiding this feeling like I don’t know, I don’t have anyone to talk to, what do you think realistically would have been better or worse? RICHARD: On the one hand I would hope it would be better, but in the end I’m not exactly unhappy with how it turned out. Those 4 years where I was depressed were spent being even more introverted than ever before. I was doing nothing but reflecting and thinking about myself, who am I, what is this, what does this mean, what’s going on, what am I going to do with my life? All that I’m not going to have go down the regular path, I’m not going to get married and have kids, that sort of wedding where there’s a woman across from me at the chapel, that’s not happening and all those little things about your future are different when you realize you’re homosexual, and I spent those 4 years thinking about it, I spent hose 4 years just being an amateur philosopher about my life and so it was no surprise to me when I got to community college, took a philosophy class and feel in love with what it was talking about because here’s how we know things, here’s how we think correctly, here’s how we can identify poor thinking, and getting things wrong, here’s how we can be sure that when we say we know something we really mean it and the tools that that gave me for further reflection, for further thinking and further work on it was really, really good. I really am happy that I have a philosophy undergrad as much as people say that is a worthless degree, absolutely not. I know so much about myself and my opinions are more formed now because I was a philosophy major because I know what bad thinking and what bad rhetoric looks like. IRIS: So it’s very pertinent to your life. RICHARD: Absolutely, everyone should take one philosophy course, it should be required freshman year of college, take a philosophy course. IRIS: I took a philosophy course and it ended up being a feminist ethics class. RICHARD: You wanna start with Socrates, everyone should have to read all the dialogues all through the Republic to become a citizen, it should be a required reading to become a participant in democracy. Page 16 �Uris: Then maybe just to wrap up, how do you, how confident are you in yourself right now, I mean honestly I don’t want to sound like stereotypical, but no one really knows you’re gay. It’s not like you said, I couldn’t pick you out of crowd, but do you think that people interact with you differently, look at you differently know if they do know you’re gay and how are you comfortable with that? RICHARD: I have always had to tell everybody, everyone was surprised, they shouldn’t have been if they had seen that photo album, they should not have been surprised, but I was I did a similar one of these things because I’m an ambassador for the resource center, and I went and I spoke in front of Greek life I spoke in front of some fraternity students and one of them had the balls to ask me, why is you’re voice so deep, because he was wondering cause all the gay guys he had seen were Jack’bn Will and Grace and everyone talks in a little higher voice and being flamey about it and no my voice is very comfortable on the baritone register because my vocal chords are just that long, but it’sone of those questions that people don’t pick up on, people don’t think about. I am presumed straight even though I am really gay, I mean it, I know what I’m talking about, I know what I like, I know who I want to date. I’ve always had to tell everybody it’s never been, people don’t look at me and say oh that’s a homosexual man, people look at me and think oh that persons gone through the whole sexuality issue in high school. IRIS: So you prefer to tell people? RICHARD: I have to! It’s not even, not even prefer, I really wish people would pick up on it. I’ve thought before, why don’t I dress a little bit more gay, why don’t I just put out more signals that I am. So I have a couple of pride shirts and I do what I can but it’s in the end 1 just whatever they’re all wrong but if that means I don’t get approached by some guys that would be interested would they know? I don’t really know if that’s ever happened, I don’t if that’s going to happen, there’s nothing I can do about it and so right now I’m still I’m about to graduate, I have one more summer class to take, but after that I really don’t know where I’m going to go, I don’t know where I’m going to live, I don’t know what city I’m going to be in, I don’t know what kind of job I’m going to be able to get. I can hope for all these really good things to happen to me because I’m getting a professional degree from Grand Valley and if you haven’t heard, Grand Valley master programs are phenomenal they’re all practical, professional programs; none of them are academic, they’re MBAs MPAs the only PhD is in physical therapy. Everything Grand Valley does at the graduate level is practical, pragmatic, and with careers in mind and its known for this so my degree is going to incredibly valuable when I leave his university, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to be able to find work immediately. It doesn’t mean I’m going to be able to find work that will provide me a moving stipend to help me get to where the job is. If I have to leave the state I require one so I can’t know, again I don’t, I’m still not in a place where I feel comfortable getting in a relationship or approaching people about it because I just don’t know where my life’s going, I just don’t know where I’m going to be and I don’t feel comfortable doing anything until I know that, until I have my own, I’m more independent than I am now which is still living off of student loans. I’ve been doing this for ten years I’ve been in college. I did it right out of high school, I did five years and I got my undergrad degree, an associates and bachelors, two years off, two years master’s degree, there’s 9 years out of high school. But that’s all I’ve been doing and at no point in there and at no point right now do I Feel comfortable saying yeah I know where my life is going. I have no idea, there’s no way to tell. It’s hard now a days and we all walk out of here with 5, 6 figures worth of debt’ I’ve got 6 figures worth of debt because I went to Page 17 �grad school, grad school is expensive! It costs me $30,000 a year to do this just in student loans that’s what I take out’ oh yeah tuition is 15 yeah but it cost me 15 just to live, just to get by, rent, cell phone, car, insurance. It cost me 15 thousand a year just to survive right now, so any job that offers me more than 15 thousand dollars is fine that is more than what I’ve got right now. IRIS: I think it’s really inspiring that people who, I feel like people might look at me difterently because I’m Hispanic, people in high school especially they thought I was black, ignorance, but I just, it’s really inspiring for me that people who, obviously you have to deal with this every single day, this homophobia, it’s really inspiring that hey, it is what it is, I’m so proud of myself, and I’m so content with everything. RICHARD: Thank you. IRIS: Thank you! CHRISTA: Thank you for talking with us. RICHARD: Absolutely, this is sort of therapeutic. When I started doing it, I wasn’t always as comfortable with it but as I do this more and more I start telling people and I see the reactions and it gets easier and easier every time I tell people, so I’m more than happy to talk about it. IRIS: I’m glad that you enjoy it because honestly I love hearing stories like this. One thing that I wrote on the Transpectrum survey was that I would love to hear more personal stories and I know that is not always easy, but how inspiring is that, you know what I mean, and educational. I would have liked to hear a lot more about the transitions that some of them went through or what they were dealing with. RICHARD: The LGBT student group is having elections tonight so I’ll put that forward that people like hearing that and maybe we can work with something. IRIS: I mean maybe it’s just me but I feel like hearing someone’s story like that, it really opens your mind, like wow I really have it good, I don’t know what’s going on around me, need to open my mind. It’s amazing. RICHARD: Yeah recognize privilege and deal with it. Not everyone’s life is like that. I’ve got a lot of privilege in a lot of ways, but you just try to recognize it. IRIS: And not enough people do it and that honestly I think that would be the solution for homophobia, for racism, for sexism is for people to open to their minds and realize that gay people aren’t going anywhere, it’s real so what are you going to do about it, it’s crazy. RICHARD: I hope you stick around for Grand Valley cause next year were trying to bring in somebody who’s been through reparative therapy to speak. Reparative therapy is when people try to change someone from being gay to not through various means, the Mormon church did this a lot with electroshock therapy in the 70’s and 80’s. IRIS: Wow. Page 18 �RICHARD: Yeah there’s a lot of it out there so were looking for someone who’s been through one of the ex-gay groups or has been through that sort of thing and is willing to tell their story, so were putting out feelers for people but hopefully we’ll find someone whose willing to speak out against those organizations like Exous international and a few others that are still functioning to this day. IRIS: Try to straighten out gay people? RICHARD: Right now there are places where a parent can send their child to pray the gay away. IRIS: I’ve heard that before. RICHARD: Yeah and it’s legal, it’s not child abuse, it should be, but it’s not. IRIS: Yup, wow that’s amazing. RICHARD: So were trying to bring that next year so stick around stay at this university and keep going to things. We have pride prom in a couple of weeks it’s going to be fun. IRIS: Like a dance kind of thing? RICHARD: Yeah because we don’t, gay people don’t get prom in high school. We don’t, we can’t bring a date to those things, are you kidding me, that’s asking for trouble. IRIS: You can’t wear what you want to either. RICHARD: Nope, so we put one on once a year and this one’s going to be good. IRIS: Well if aN goes well I’ll be out of here by next December, graduated but knock on wood. RICHARD: Well good luck. IRIS: Thank you, thank you so much for coining I really appreciate it. RICHARD: No problem. END OF INTERVIEW Page 19 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/29fa15a8c94c7f84601475edb7d2e25d.mp3 9264ca98f31c792e92d44d4f15ff45f9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Robinson_Richard_2 Title A name given to the resource Richard Robinson audio interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Richard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Iris Christa Description An account of the resource Richard Robinson grew up in Clarkston, MI. He attended Oakland Community College from 2003-2005 and GVSU as an undergrad from 2005-2008. His undergrad was in Philosophy and anthropology. He is now a grad student studying public administration. In this interview, Robinson discusses his experiences with discrimination as a gay male. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-05 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/738c229cd7fe58605a44c020a60a18b7.pdf 94b51d5bdaa6bce0360e7a27754c9c44 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Mirta McGee Interviewers: Christina McGee Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/22/2011 Biography and Description Mirta McGee was born in Cuba and raised in the United States. She is currently an elementary school Spanish teacher. She discusses balancing Cuban culture with American culture, discrimination based on language barriers, and the differences between when she was growing up and her students now. Transcript CHRISTINA: Could you please introduce yourself and tell me a little about yourself? MIRTA: My name is Mirta Maria McGee. I was born on February 9th, 1960 in Cienfuegos, Cuba. My parents were Eduardo and Mirta Irueta and I have one sister, Concepcion Irueta and goes by the name of Connie. I am married and have three children. My oldest is Christina at nineteen years old, Nicholas at seventeen years old, and Caitlin who is fourteen years old. CHRISTINA: And where did you do all your schooling? MIRTA: I graduated from the University of Michigan with a BA in education and then I went back to get my Masters in Education at U of M. I also vent to the University of New Rochelle in New York to get my Montessori training for six to nine year olds, and that’s kind of like first, second and third grade, you teach all three grades in the same classroom. And currently I’m getting my Spanish endorsement from Wayne State for grades 12 through... I mean I’m sorry kindergarten through 8th grade CHRISTINA: And what are you doing now? MIRTA: Right now i’m teaching Spanish to grades third, fourth and fifth. CHRISTINA: Explain coming from Cuba to America. Or if you don’t really remember that how was it from living in Florida to Detroit, how was the transitions? MIRTA: Well I left Cuba when I was 2, and we lived in Florida for about nine months so I turned three in Miami and then we moved to Detroit. So I don’t really remember anything from Miami or Cuba because I was too young. But 1 do remember the different houses we lived in when we moved to Detroit. We lived in one neighborhood that was near All Saints. My sister who is seven years older than me went to Page 1 �AU Saints. And then we moved to another neighborhood where we were closer to Saint Gabes and that’s where I went to school. All my schooling from first through to high school was catholic schools, they were private. So one school was first through eighth and then 1 went to Holy Redeemer for ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth grade. CHRISTINA: And how were the Catholic schools, how was that compared to what you see now in the public schools? MIRTA: Well it was more disciplined, they were stricter. We... I loved the uniform. I wish more schools had uniform. But it was more restrictive, you had certain things you had to do or you couldn’t do. We had religion every day. There was more of a sense I think sometimes of family than there is now. There were the priests involved in your training. All the Nuns that we had, because being a parochial school a lot of nuns did the teaching, now a day you hardly see nuns. There are so few of them around. My neighborhood was very diverse so we had lots of nationalities living together, learning about each other’s nationalities. CHRISTINA: Were they mostly catholic or was it all different types of religions? MIRTA: No all different types of religions. A lot of the kids I hung out with where Catholic only because we all went to the same school so you usually stick to the friends you go to school with but when we were in middle school and high school and a lot of us worked in the neighborhood tasty freeze. And there, there were all kinds of people. Kids who went to the public school, as well as kids who went to the parochial schools so there were a lot of different religions we were hanging out with at the time. CHRISTINA: So I know you described what it was like growing up but do you have any distinct memories? How was it growing up in the sense that you weren’t necessarily born in this country? And of course people would hear about that and... MIRTA: Well. . we... My parents still followed all the Cuban traditions but then we tried to follow along some of the newer American traditions. We as Cubans don’t celebrate Christmas Day we celebrate Christmas Eve. We still stuck to the Christmas Eve going to church on Christmas Eve and celebrating it after that. Then St. Valentine’s day that wasn’t really a big holiday for us. Halloween wasn’t a really big holiday but because all my friends were doing the Halloween and the trick or treating but so it was a meshing of cultures. Of our culture that we didn’t want to lose sight of and the new host culture of the country we were now living in. CHRISTINA: So did your parents feel that because you were in a new country but obviously you guys stuck to what your customs were but did they change it more because of you or just to fit in? MIRTA: I think it was a little bit of both, to fit in and to make me feel like I was a part of it. And more comfortable if all my friends were doing something and I won’t have been doing it then maybe I would’ve been more left out. More than anything it was more in stuff like holidays or stuff like that. There were still stuff that they... I wasn’t allowed to say like sleepover at friend’s house because my parents didn’t know; they basically didn’t know other parents. And since they didn’t know them, they didn’t feel comfortable with me spending the night over there. I mean I could still go over to friend’s Page 2 �houses, they could come to my house but we didn’t do that whole sleeping over routine and things like that. CHRISTINA: I see, and can you ever remember when you were in school or a time when you had difficulty or you were made fun of or you personally or your sister personally discriminated against? How did you respond to that? MIRTA: Well there were kids that would tease you and call you... . all they knew about Cuba was Castro so they would call you mini Castro or stuff like that. We would get the, since our culture we kinda as babies get our ear pierced. So we had our ear’s pierced and our earrings, and we would kinda get... it was kind of a new thing that Americans were not used to seeing. So we were made fun of for that saying we were barbarians because we had holes in our ears. And being a prochial school we always had a uniform but once a month we had a free day let’s say that you could wear whatever you wanted like a causal day. So naturally all the kids would wear jeans but Cubans don’t wear jeans because Cuba’s a hot tropical island and jeans would only make you hotter. So we wore cotton dresses, cotton skirts, linen, and things like that. So if we wore something like that for casual day then that was also another way for us to be standing out and being made fun of saying that we were freakish because we weren’t dressing like the norm. MIRTA: So how did that make you guys feel? Did it make you guys feel like you weren’t fitting in or was it just like kids will be kids. Or was it different because you were not... CHRISTINA: Well I guess it was a little bit of both. I’m sure there was sometimes when you thought about kids just being kids but other times it kind of upset us because... I guess we felt like we weren’t, our feelings weren’t being taken into consideration, because it was almost like as long as there was something different about you then its ok to make fun of. I guess we were used to other cultures, it wasn’t,.. I mean we didn’t feelthe same way. And our high school there was a huge melting pot of different nationalities. We had the Muslims, we had a big group of Hispanics because there were Mexicans and the Puerto Ricans so there was that big community. And Holy Redeemer is in a Hispanic neighborhood so there was that group and we had a huge group of Arabic people. So they were all doing their thing but I think that on the whole that everyone got along. Everyone kinda realized there were different religions and then at our high school we also had to take religion courses which were world religion that kind of gave you the, taught you all different kind of religions. We looked into the Muslims, the Jewish andwe had field trips where we visited the synagogue and different churches. So I think that also gave us an awareness of other people, their beliefs and their customs so I didn’t feel that, at least during my high school years that people kinda made fun of you. I think by the time we go there, there was so many different cultures all trying to get along that it was a lot easier. I think that in elementary school we kind of stuck out as being different. So it was a little more difficult plus we were new to this country so it was getting used to all that and being made fun of But as we got older and you’re kind of thrown in with a lot more different groups that then you kind of learn to get along better. CHRISTINA: So you feel like once you guys all grew up and you went to school generally with the same people? Page 3 �MIRTA: Yes for like 12 years. CHRISTINA: You all got to know each other and it was bad at first but then it slowly just everyone understood each other got along. And you were more open to cause usually the grades are smaller when you are in elementary and middle school and once you get into high school everything opens up and everything opens up and they realize that its different MIRTA: Yeah and I guess that would probably be, in my case that it probably helped a lot that Holy Redeen er is in or close to Mexican town. So there was a lot of Spanish speaking people, there were a lot of Spanish speaking shops around, bakeries so it kinda it made it easier I would say. Holy Redeemer had a Spanish mass; it had a huge group of Spanish speaking members so… CHRISTINA: It made it easier MIRTA: It made it a lot easier, but even so with any fights that ever broke out in our high school was never between different racial groups. it was always like you know just over silly dumb things but between friends and between groups but it was never raciall motivated. CHRISTINA: Ok, so was there ever like family, how did your parents respond? Because they had been living in Cuba obviously for a long period of time, so the transition would’ve been probably a culture shock, a lot different coming from Cuba to America. MIRTA: Yes I will have to say I always felt that I had to give my parents a lot of credit that leaving when they were... My dad was in his 40’s when he left Cuba to start in a new country, a new job, basically a new language because they took English in Cuba but as anything when you learn the language and then you are immersed in it, to speak it it’s a bit different. When they first came here they had to get used to the language because everybody, in any language they speak faster than when you learn it. When you learn a language everything is ‘how are you”, and no one speaks like that. So a lot of the slang and stuff they had, they didn’t know, and they had to pick up and so it was difficult for them. Beside that, also picking up and starting in a country whose culture is completely different, The climate is completely different. Michigan with its cold and its snow is a drastic change from Cuba which is tropical and warm all year round. And so that was a big transition for them. They left all their family, their friends and all heir possessions. All their keepsakes and pictures and photo albums, everything, to start all over and try to make a better live for themselves. So I think they would’ve had a harder time because my mom had been a teacher in Cuba but her degree was recognized to a point but she had to go back to school to get an endorsement so she could teach Spanish and she almost had to get another degree so she could be able to teach here. So that was also an adjustment, having to go back to school and start all over as well as learn every CHRISTINA: Everything that about America MIRTA: Right CHRISTINA: Where they discriminated against? Did they ever get the rude comments and the... Page 4 �MIRTA: I do remember every once and a while. I remember one day we had just come back from church and we were on our way back home and we stopped at one of those corner mom and pop type stores to get some milk and bread or something like that, to pick up something. We were leaving the store talking amongst ourselves in Spanish and a little old lady stopped us and started yelling at my dad, saying that now that we were in America we should speak English and not any other language. And I remember my dad getting mad and it was a little polish lady. I remember my dad telling her “I’m sure when you go home you speak in polish and nobody is telling you what to do.” My dad felt strongly that just because we were here didn’t mean that we didn’t have to our culture and our language. And the only way we would kept that is if we kept speaking it, and he didn’t want my sister and I to forget the language to forget our nationality and all our traditions. So we still spoke in Spanish, that’s not to say that we didn’t speak in English too but he didn’t want us to forget that. So we did that at home, and that’s how he would make sure I spoke in Spanish so I won’t lose it. So that kinda upset me because I guess, I would hear Arabic being spoken by this family, I would hear Italian by this one, Polish by this one. And to me that never really bothered me, I always thought that it was neat that other people and their language and their customs and their traditions. So I guess I never really understood why somebody would be offended by that but I guess it’s their own I think that when people hear you speak in another language it’s that narcissistic tendency to think that they think you are talking about them. The whole world revolves around them, no we are not always talking about you. It isn’t about them. We are talking about whatever we want to talk about but since they don’t know what you’re saying they assume that you are saying something about them. CHRISTINA: So they didn’t have as much as a problem you would say because you were immersed in the schooling and you were... MIRTA: We still had, I do recall my mom maybe because she spoke more English because she was teaching and she still had an accent, but my dad’s accent was stronger than my moms, and basically it’s because if he didn’t always have to speak it he spoke more of the Spanish. My, not that he didn’t understand you, he understood the English and he spoke it but he didn’t speak it as often as my mom. So I remember going into Sears, and we were buying some kind of appliance, I don’t remember what, but I remember my dad going in there and right off the bat saying excuse me, something about a strong accent or his English was not as good. 1 remember the salesman gushing all over ahhh no you speak perfect English. Which you kinda knew it was a big lie because it wasn’t perfect English you know it wasn’t bad English but it wasn’t perfect English. So he was just buttering him up so he could get his commission and his sale, And he would just go on and ooze about how wonderful my dad’s English was and blah b!ah blah. And then I remember we purchased something and it was a big ticket item and we brought it home. Something happened and it wasn’t working and we had to have a repair or something. I remember going back with my dad and the salesman going “what? I don’t understand you. What do you want? I don’t understand a thing you are saying.” I remember my dad looking at him saying “funny when I came in here to purchase it my English couldn’t have been better but now that there is a problem with something you claim to not understand me.” So I did notice the instances like that, where there would be, their nationality or their English would come into play and then they were treated differently. Also because my dad had the thicker accent people would always assume, because you had the have an accent for some reason you are lacking in intelligence. Or that you’re deaf, so they scream Page 5 �when they talk to you. I’m not deaf I have an accent. I always look at it as no I would think that if you know two or three languages you are a heck of a lot more intelligent than one who only speaks one. So instead of talking down you should try to listen to what they are saying and not treat them like they are ignorant. That I always found to be pretty annoying hut then I think I when I.,. The first job I ever had was working at the Tasty Freeze and the couple who ran it were German. So I was always exposed to them talking to each other in German and I got used to listening to accents. Like my parents had their accent, they had their accent, my best friend was Maltese and I always went over there and I would always like to listen to her mom and dad talking Maltese and so there was all different languages that I was exposed too growing up. CHRISTINA: I see. Now you live in a predominantly white community, would you say that it’s been different than where you grew up, where you were surrounded by so many Hispanics? I mean now you are older and it’s different and times have changed do you think there is a difference? MIRTA: Yes I would, because I think this community (as wonderful as I like where I live) I see where, umm, people are not used to anyone who is different than them. I see how they look kind of differently on the Asians, Indians, Hispanic, and I don’t think they quite know how to deal with them because they haven’t had to. This is a really small community with one high school, two elementary schools, and one middle school, and they really haven’t had to deal with a lot of diversity and I don’t think they know how to deal with it. You hear the adults, you hear the kids becauseobviously they’ve been exposed to it with there parents how they don’t go into the city, because of the crime, they’re afraid to go into the museum, and its really kind of sad because they separate themselves like that. It’s like they’re only comfortablebeing with there “own kind” and frankly I kind of think my childhood was better being exposed to all kinds of people, because there you learn from each other, you learn from their traditions and culture. You learn how to get along as opposed to being strictly with all, lets say white Anglo Saxons and then its like there not used to dealing with anybody else, and if anyone’s just a little bit different they don’t know what to make of it CHRISTINA: Right and I know going to school in the community, if there was one black kid everyone knew who he was and everyone know everything about him just because he was the only one. I mean I never really experienced anyone being discriminated against or racially profiled. You have your Middle Eastern kids that would make jokes about themselves. They would call themselves “the brown kids.” They would joke and talk about themselves. You being a teacher have you seen any bullying or comments being made or anything in the younger grades? MIRTA: No. I would have to think about that but I haven’t really umm what I do whenteach, I mean I, I not only teach them the language, I try to teach them about the culture, because unfortunately when they hear, ok where going to learn Spanish and we talk about Spanish, they unfortunately think the only other country that speaks Spanish is Mexico and they don’t have a clue that there are tons, there is Puerto Rico, South America, Central America, there is the Caribbean, and so I try to open their eyes so they are more culturally aware. So maybe each month we do a country. One month we do Spain, and we learn about what life is like in Spain. What is there music like, what is there dance like? So I show them the flamingo, and what that music is and how it came about and the dancing and how it’s similar. And we do Mexico, and we learn about the mariachi and how it came about. Then we can go and learn about Page 6 �Argentina and the tango, and their culture because you want them to be culturally aware and know that there is a whole world out there and there are different traditions. You know we talk about the DIa de los Muertos and how did that came about. And typically, a lot of our traditions, are Hispanic traditions, come from Roman Catholic faith, because the majority are catholic. I’m not saying every Hispanic is, but the major religion in Spain is Catholicism, the major religion in Cuba is Catholicism and in Mexico. So a lot of these traditions where based on the church. So El DIa de los Muertos was to honor the dead, we didn’t do Halloween, we did that. So during Christmas we do the Posadas, which is the re-enactment of Christ going from inn to inn, not Christ, I should say Mary and Joseph looking for a place to stay and finally finding it at the stable. So all of these are religious holidays. So I try to tell them, this is how this culture celebrates these things because they are all religion based. CHRISTINA: So you’re saying kids now a day are more sheltered than they were in the past. How you were raised and everything, you are culturally aware. You had all the different ethnicities and languages around you. I know you had some white friends, and obviously they were more culturally aware. You see kids now a day and they’re telling you they only think Spanish comes from Mexico, would you say kids are more sheltered now than they were before and they don’t know what’s going on and they are more ignorant if you will, and the parents are to blame because they don’t want their kids to be? MIRTA: I don’t know if they don’t want or if they don’t feel comfortable with or they don’t know enough about. Which is surprising when you think about all the technology out there; you’ve got YouTube and all the different things in the computer, you would think the world opens up more for you now because of all that. I guess to a degree, with the music, they can be more aware. You have your different Hispanic groups and they are opening up and crossing over to the American scene and are more pop. So that kind of teaches them. We had Gloria Estefan and theMiami Sound Machine, which really opened up the Cuban music and brought it to the American scene, and now we have Pitbull doing his rap and that kind of also makes them more aware. So I guess in a way that helps a little bit but otherwise people kind of didn’t know what was going on, so I guess it depends. If you haveparents that are making these kids more aware and are teaching them about thisand are taking them places, if they only stay in their little community and only go to the same kind of places then they aren’t going to know any better. We have a family in my school, they go to Coasta Rica every year for spring break. And so now the kids just love it and they say “we can practice our Spanish there” and they have come back with so many souvenirs that I told the mom who is always bringing me stuff, and I said great because one of my months we are doing a unit on Coasta Rica. And so that also gives them another sense of what’s out there, how people live and what they do. CHRISTINA: And do you think that class has anything do with it? Like social class and the income that people make. Is higher class or lower class more or less aware? MIRTA: Well I suppose class will have something to do with it. If you are better off and you have the funds to be able to travel and you do travel. I mean you may have the money to travel but you never leave and never go anywhere and then of course that doesn’t help. But these people that are traveling and seeing the world that opens up their horizons and opens up their ideas so that they are able to communicate with people and see the differences and if you never leave your back yard then you don’t know what’s out there and you can’t really relate to people because it only what you know and a lot of Page 7 �times what you don’t know and what people don’t know scares them and therefore they shy away from it or sometimes people make fun of what they don’t understand or don’t know. CHRISTINA: Do you see any changes being made in your community in regards to the minority groups that are here? Or are they accommodating them better? MIRTA: Well I think, you made that reference to them calling themselves “the brown group”. I think as the kids have become more outspoken, which is a good thing, they feel more comfortable about themselves that they can be outspoken. That kind of brings the attention to themselves but in a humorous way. They are talking about themselves... CHRISTINA: But not taking themselves to seriously? MIRTA: Yeah, and so that other people can see them. Instead of them fading into the wood work because they don’t want any attention brought to them because they don’t want to be made fun off or they don’t want to be whatever the reason may be. By them pushing themselves in the fore front, they’re trying to make a stand that, “Yeah we are different in these ways, but in other ways we are the same as you”. I do think though that sometimes people mistake when you say something, I don’t want to say criticism, but people get offended if you say something that you do not like about this country or something in that f... as soon as they know that your not from this country they take offense. When really every body has their opinion. I mean, no country, no place that you live can be totally perfect. So there is always something, o this is great but you if you could improve this it would be even better. Its healthy criticism. And I think sometimes people take offense when you say something like that, because right away they want to say “well you don’t have a right to criticize, you shouldn’t say anything.” They might have thought the same thing but they don’t want to hear you say it. I remember when I was in school my sister was in high school and they had a civic project. The class project was that they had to write about/find something that they did not like about Detroit. What problem Detroit had and what they could do to fix it, and Connie wrote about the pollution in Detroit, meaning pollution of the garbage and how the streets were littered and what they should do and how they should clean them up etc. I remember it was an evening andthe principal and the pastor of our school knocked on the door and the principal basically told my sister if she was so unhappy with Detroit and if she thought it was so dirty or had so many problems then maybe we should go back to where we came from. Because if we were criticizing it, then clearly that meant we weren’t happy here and we shouldn’t be here. And first of all I found that to be really rude andoffensive because my dad said to the principal “and are you going to everyone’s house that wrote that paper because that was the class assignment, to find a problem and talk about it and how you would correct it.” And surely they didn’t go to everyone’s house they only went to our house because we were Cuban and not America so we had no right, according to them, to criticize this country. And I just found that to be first of all, in bad taste. You were supposed to be religious people, and that was intolerant and it showed their intolerance. And second of all, if you didn’t want anyone criticizing you country, you shouldn’t have made that assignment, that what the assignment was, so in that case I thought that was a definite case of discrimination, they didn’t like what we had said so they came. CHRISTINA: And they personally picked you out? Page 8 �MIRTA: Yeah CHRISTINA: Is America what you would expect it to be? I know you don’t remember when you came here, but is the image of America, you know, you’re told the melting pot, everyone is mixed together, it is the land of the free, home of the brave, there is opportunity and jobs. Is that what you see it to be? What they tell foreigners is the image of America that what you see it to be? MIRTA: Yes. I believe that you can come to this country and make something of yourself. There is people that leave for religious persecution, people that leave because of the government, which was the case for us. We left a year after Castro took over, because my dad had already been following closely enough to know that he was steering toward communism and he knew it would only get worse. It was bad when we left but it only went down hill from there and he didn’t want his children raised in that environment so he chose to leave and try to make a better home and a better life in a new country and that’s what he in turn did. I do think that other nationalities and other groups of people can be very successful. For instance, there’s different kinds of communities that have come up and have become very successful. If I talk about the Cuban community, the Cubans made Miami what it is today. Miami was a little city no one knew anything about. Older people went there to retire and that was the extent of that. Cubans are the third highest minority in education and social economic status. Turning Miami into a Little Havana and opening up all of their little shops and businesses. They have a Cuban mayor and a Cuban governor. That pushed the city to become famous in all the things that it did. You had Miami Beach that was just strictly a beach that people went to and then what did they do? They turned it into a little jazz area, with little shops, and different Cuban establishments, so yeah, they became very successful and to them that was the American dream. They became successful and they still had part of their culture and they also became Americanized and used part of the American culture but they made that successful and made it there own and they started that whole Calle Ocho, which is 8th street, their little festival. And it started out as a little festival, and as it got bigger and bigger the recruited big names in the jazz community, in the rock and roll community. The Cuban stars as well as other stars and made a name for themselves and kind of opened it up to the world to say “hey, this is who we are and this is what we are about, to learn about it.” It’s a free concert, yeah people go around and buy food and souvenirs, but you got all these big time musicians that they would bring in that were, whether they were jazz or singers, whatever they were that were big names kind of taught a little bit about there culture to the rest of the world. CHRISTINA: So you would say that the American dream is obtainable to those that are not American. It is a possibility; it’s not just something that the Americans just throw out there to get you to come over? MIRTA: No it takes a lot of hard work and it takes dedication and you can’t have the mentality of “you owe me this” and getting free handouts. You know a lot of these people started out small with low paying jobs and they just kept working and earning trying to get to the next best job and just kept working at it until they made it a success. I’m sure it was a lot of hard work, but it was like anything a lot of them went to school and just new that the more education they got the better it would be for them. Page 9 �CHRISTINA: Would you say that when immigrants come to America they take on a new identity, new cultural beliefs, just the way they do things? I know you mixed you Cuban tradition with the American tradition, but do you think that they try to change or do they want to preserve their culture? MIRTA: I guess it depends when they came over and what their feelings are. Depending on the generation, there was the generation of the Italians who came here and were given a lot of problems and so they didn’t speak Italian. I had a lot of friends, depending on when they came; their parents wouldn’t speak to them in Italian so therefore they never learned the language. The parents spoke the Italian but they didn’t want there kids to learn it because now they were in America they had to learn English and they wanted to blend in and didn’t want to stand out because they were made fun of and given a lot of grief because they were a different nationality. And while I understand that and sympathize with that, I think that is really sad because then you are losing a vital part of who you are and those traditions and those beliefs and that language is what your made of. It forms your basis, and to deny that and to forget about that your kind of inhibiting your future, and your children because their losing that richness. They’re not being exposed to the language. They’re not being exposed to that wealth of tradition and culture that there parents where, and it’s wonderful to have these traditions to be passed down form the grandparent, and great grandparent, and this is what we do and believe. Kids love that kind of stuff. Kids love to know the kind of things you did when you were a kid. I think your short changing you children if you just think that because you’re here, you have to be so Americanized. When you think about it, there really is no true American. The only true American is the Native American Indian because everyone from this country came from a different country, like Ireland and Germany. So there are all these different cultures and nationalities here that are blending and I think it makes it richer when you can learn about all these different cultures. “0 wow this is what we did when we were growing up. What did you do?” I just think it makes you a more well-rounded person. CHRISTINA: Would you say minority groups are becoming more outspoken, and they are not just going to conform to what everyone’s doing? They aren’t going to be forcing it down people’s throats but in general, they want to preserve their culture. MIRTA: I would say so because I think now we have so many and there are so many cultures and so many different churches and have festivals, and downtown they still have festivals, like in Hart Plaza they would have different festivals. People go down there and see the Polish festival and Arabic festivals, and I think you learn about their food you learn about their beliefs. I think that opens up a whole new world and I think therefore because of that, I do believe people are more outspoken. Of course we have our times that there were some difficulties like after the terrorist attacks. I felt bad because Arabic people were being singled out because they were suspicious because they could be a terrorist which is not fair for them as a whole because you have a few bad apples that are ruining it for the rest and so anytime there was anybody that looked Arabic then “oh my god lets look at them closely because they might be a terrorist.” And it’s a shame that its come to that, but as well as I understand it, sometimes that’s when people are scared, and we had the same things when there was the bombing of Hiroshima and all of that. We were leery of the Japanese, depending on what happens we have those times that I guess a certain minority group does gets singled out for being untrustworthy and suspicious and I guess to an extent that will always happen I guess, depending on the circumstances. Page 10 �CHRISTINA: So if there is one thing that you could change about how people view you or just minority groups in general, what would you like to see happen? MIRTA: I guess people should be more open minded, be willing to learn new things, be exposed top new ideas. I remember when I was in 8th grade, and we were learning the metric system, one of the 8tI grade students, was complaining, “why do we have to learn the metric system why don’t they learn our system”, and I remember telling him “the majority of the world knows the metric system, we are one of the only countries that doesn’t” and why do we have to learn a new language why don’t they just learn English. When you think about it, most countries, besides aside from the United States, they know their language and they know sometimes two and 3 others. They learn English and sometimes a third and fourth language. I found that to be a really close minded mentality, that the world revolves around me. We are super power therefore why should we have to do that? But as a super power, then we should be able to know more languages, be more tolerant, and sometimes I think we are less tolerant. So I think that if they could learn from that that then it would make them stronger and better, and because of that they would be more well rounded and more tolerant and they would be able to get along better with others. END OF INTERVIEW Page 11 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/99419e270d9df04fa39e80fa539e2b85.mp3 3ab50447ba16bfb65313ee95303a4f16 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McGee_Mirta Title A name given to the resource Mirta McGee audio interview and Transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McGee, Mirta Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGee, Christina Description An account of the resource Mirta McGee was born in Cuba and raised in the United States. She is currently an elementary school Spanish teacher. She discusses balancing Cuban culture with American culture, discrimination based on language barriers, and the differences between when she was growing up and her students now. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6b6c94223593ef444dd1fbb5c600040f.pdf 86b056b10ddabb5a21be8d09deca3497 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Christina McAllister Interviewers: Philip Matro, Douglas Brunner and Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/7/2011 Biography and Description Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Transcript VANBIESBROUCK: My name is Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck and we are here today on November 7, 2011 and I am Interviewing Dennis Jones and Christina McAllister about their experience of diversity in West Michigan. Okay, Christina if you would give me some basic information about yourself like where you grew up, your siblings, what’s your family like. MCALLISTER: Okay, I grew up in Lowell, Michigan. It was kind of a farm town. I have six sisters. Both of my parents came from...were married previously, had children, and then had me and my younger sister. So lots of kids, all girls. I was raised in a Christian home, so church and religion and all that was part of my upbringing. My parents were very conservative. VANBIESBROUCK: And what ethnicity are you? MCALLISTER: I am white. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, and when is your birthday? MCALLISTER: May 29, 1989 and what else do you want to know? VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good for now. Okay, Dennis, where did you grow up, what’s your family like? JONES: I grew up in Waukegan, Illinois. It’s pretty much 45 minutes dead north of Chicago. I actually was closer to the Wisconsin border. But I grew up. I am the youngest of four siblings and my older sister, that is my half sister. My mom, she was in a previous relationship, marriage, and that’s where my oldest sister came from and then me and my brother and my other sister are all from my mom and my dad. Waukegan is kind of an interesting place. I lived on the border of two cities, Waukegan and Beach Park. Beach Park is more of a richer area and Waukegan is like, I guess, the poorer side of the city and so I got to see a lot of both areas, but I also grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor from the time I Page 1 �could remember, so he’s been doing that. And my mom grew up in a Christian home. Her dad was a pastor. My dad didn’t grow up in a Christian home. He was kind of in and out of church and kind of doing his own thing and then he was in the Army for awhile and then he got hurt and that is when he came to know Christ. So he hasn’t always been a Christ-follower, but all my life I have known him as one. So I ended up, I mean, I am black if you wanted to know that. VANBIESBROUCK: Thank you. JONES: No problem. So it’s been kind of funny. I have grown up around all different types of ethnicity with being on the border of two cities with Waukegan and Beach Park. And then also being in the public school system for awhile there from kindergarten til sixth grade and then I started going to a public school from sixth grade on and then I was predominantly around Caucasians. And so it’s never been anything new. Huh? MCALLISTER: You went to a private school. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Oh, you said public. JONES: Yeah, public from kindergarten to fifth grade. MCALLISTER: And then private after that. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Okay. JONES: I love you, too. This is my part of the interview. So, yeah, for the most part I have always been around all different types of races so I have never been the type to kind of shy away from any type of race or just somebody else because of skin color. And I grew up, I have mixed cousins. I had a white cousin there for awhile before they got divorced, if that makes sense. Cousin-in-law. So, yeah that’s kind of a little bit of my story. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, what about you Christina? Have you always been around Caucasians cause you’ve been in West Michigan? MCALLISTER: Primarily, yes. I went to a Christian high school that was close to Muskegon, which is a lot of black people. And so we had a few black students there. I was not really good friends with any of them. They weren’t the coolest people to hang out with. But my parents always raised me to never look at color when you’re meeting someone, that you get to know their personality and who they are and it’s their morals and qualities and characteristics that count. So even though I was not exposed to a lot of different races, that was something very important to my parents because it was. VANBIESBROUCK: So growing up, did you guys, like, what did you want your boyfriend or your girlfriend, like what qualities did you want them to have and did you think about dating someone from a different Page 2 �ethnicity? Was that part of what you considered or did you not even think about that when you were younger? MCALLISTER: Well when I was younger I never thought about that. I never expected to be with a black guy because I didn’t really know any black people and I certainly was not attracted to any of the ones that I did know. So, my ideal man was tall, dark and handsome which I ended up getting in a little different form. Just kidding. So I guess the most important thing to me was someone who was hardworking and who was going to love me, who loves Jesus, and those are pretty much the most important things to me. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis? JONES: For me, I think it’s funny because just the way, ever since I grew up I was kind of the more different one out of my family. “You’re so proper, you’re so this, you’re so that” which I thought was funny. And they always would say, “Yeah, you’re not going to marry a black girl, or you’re never going to be with a black girl.” And I was like, “Yeah I probably won’t.” So I always grew up knowing that I probably wouldn’t date someone within my race or, I guess not knowing, but I always just. I never really always looked at other cultures or other ethnicities before a black person or a black girl if that makes sense. And it’s not like I had anything against them, it was just, I don’t know, being wired that way as a kid and always interested in other cultures and other different looking girls. I remember like in fourth grade, I really liked this Asian girl. That was kind of funny. So that’s never really been an issue for me, like race or anything like that. But, like one of the main things I really grew up wanting out of a girl was a Christian-based faith and grounded foundations in that cause that’s where my family came from, very strong Christians, and just good morals and values about herself and someone that wasn’t, my mom said, “Loose.” I never knew what that meant, but she always said it and I guess I know what it means now that I’m older. So, that’s kind of my story of choosing a woman. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, Christina, could you tell me how you guys met? MCALLISTER: Yes. We met at Cornerstone University, which is where we both went to college. Dennis was a year ahead of me. It was my Freshman year, his Sophomore year. In the winter time, Dennis was coaching...not coaching...he was helping out with intramural volleyball. He was reffing. And we had seen each other around and stuff and I guess I thought he was cute for a black guy but I was not really interested in black guys, so I never really thought about dating him but we ended up kind of hanging out one night after or during the volleyball games and we had a lot of fun, we really connected. We just kind of like, our personalities like immediately, like it was just so easy to hang out with him and have fun with him and stuff. I guess that was the first time I was like, “Oh, I actually kind of like you.” VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. JONES: I guess my version is a little different. I remember the first time I met her. We both played sports at Cornerstone and it was near the training room and she was in there and I was getting my ankles taped for practice and she was... I don’t know what she was doing. And I knew her friend Hellen before I knew her and I saw Hellen and I was like, “Oh Hellen, how you doing?” And then in the hallway I met her and she was like, “Oh yeah this is Christina.” And I was like, “Oh hey Christina, how you doing?” And the next Page 3 �day I saw her and I actually forgot her name and I was like, “Oh hey, you. How are you doing?” And then she was like, “My name’s Christina.” And I was like, “Yeah.” And from there I always thought she was a cute girl and stuff like that but at the time she was kind of dating someone else and I was like, “Yeah, whatever.” So I did not really think anything of it and it was a couple weeks later, a month later or something. I don’t know, it was awhile after that and I was just doing the intramural stuff and I was just hyper that night for some reason and then she ended up being around and she ended up falling to my wrath of someone I started talking to. I talked to a lot of people and she ended up being that person that night. I guess it was a blessing? I’m just kidding, it was a good thing. VANBIESBROUCK: So like once you two started getting serious, were either one of you kind of intimidated or scared or nervous about the fact that one of you is white and one of you is black? Or did it just not even cross your mind? JONES: Well for me it didn’t cross mine initially I thought this thing was never going to work out after we had our first couple dates. We both thought we were just like “Alright this isn’t going to work out.” We were really.., the night we met we really had a lot of fun and stuff like that and then when we went on a couple dates it was just like, “Ooo, so..” and that kind of that awkward funk in the air. But as far as being intimidated or anything like that with like race or color, it never crossed my mind initially at all until I guess when I met her family. But that didn’t really bother me. Instead I always, even in high school, I was always the minority so I was always around people of different color and so for me it was easy to just bond and talk to other people and their families. Especially playing sports through high school, always like around my friends’ families, like with my dad being a pastor, it was hard for my mom and him to get out to games and stuff like that or make the long road trips cause they were always involved with church and stuff like that so I always spent a lot of time with my friends’ families or would go over there before practice and hang out with them and their family. So it was always easy for me to get along with a friend’s family, so to speak cause it was just like, “Oh yeah.” It kind of reminds me of high school, so even watching a lot of my friend’s family, like same thing in college with sports and stuff, my family never got the chance to come out a lot, especially being away from home and playing sports. It was always easier to connect with other families cause that was my family at the time, so me meeting her family and being around her never really intimidated me. VANBIESBROUCK: Same for you? MCALLISTER: No, it was very different for me. Dennis was the first black friend I’d ever had and, really, like a genuine friend and so it was really all I actually thought about really was that probably for the first couple months. And I mean I really like Dennis as a person and it obviously didn’t stop me from dating him but it was something I was very like unsure about. I don’t know, I was just curious, because, something I really hadn’t hardly been exposed to at all. So, I stuck with Dennis for the first couple dates cause I wanted to kiss a black guy. JONES: That is exactly what she told me. MCALLISTER: It’s really true. I’ve come this far, I might as well, get to the date where we kiss and... JONES: She told me that after we had been together for awhile. It must have been a good kiss. Page 4 �MCALLISTER: I had a lot of encouragement from my friends and people who knew Dennis that, “Oh, it’s a good thing and it doesn’t matter about color, and all those things will work out.” So all the concerns I guess that I had initially I had a chance to work through and process on my own. And then on my own and kind of with my friends and people who knew Dennis. So by thetime a couple months in when I was really...it was starting to get serious, I knew that I wanted to do it and was committed and that color and stuff doesn’t really matter and those things that could be problems or something in the future, even if they ended up being a problem, I was willing to, I guess, sacrifice or work through it or whatever. . JONES: For me it was just like “Hey, let’s do this thing.” I didn’t like.., nothing crossed my mind about like how people perceived me or if we got looks or anything like that cause it was just normal to be for some reason. Just cause of the way I grew up, the people I was around, the school I went to when I was in high school, being a private school, being primarily around white people and a few other races. But, I mean for me, I guess it was normalized for me at a young age so it just never really bothered me. VANBIESBROUCK: So what was your family’s response to each other or to you? Or their attitude? JONES: My family didn’t care. They were like, “Oh, nice. Bring her around.” “Alright, if I can. Kind of busy.” I don’t know. It didn’t... my family, it wasn’t an issue, it wasn’t a big issue at all. VANBIESBROUCK: Was that partially because you already had people in your family who had already been with white people before? JONES: Yeah, that too. Plus our family background, it’s just always been, “It doesn’t matter,” especially my mom’s side of the family. My dad, a little bit different, because he’s from down south. But with him it was no big deal. It doesn’t matter, so I guess with my immediate family it was like, “Oh, that’s cool. Make sure she’s the right one, make sure you’re looking for all the right things and not just dating her to date her.” They were more worried about the person than the color. VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. Christina? MCALLISTER: My family’s response was a little bit different. Actually it was really surprising to me because of the way my parents had raised me and taught me to be so open-minded to color and to culture and that kind of thing. I waited awhile before I really brought Dennis home. We kind of don’t bring a guy home unless you are serious about him. It is kind of the family rule. So I brought him home and told some of my family I was serious about him. My mom especially definitely had some concerns about us and our relationship. And that was probably the biggest hurdle as far as this stuff goes, with the whole black-white thing that we had to get through. she...this was before she really got to know Dennis, just kind of going off the whole color thing, basically. VANBIESBROUCK: So like a stereotype? MCALLISTER: Yeah, the biggest thing that tripped her up. JONES: Always fighting the stereotype. I’ll tell ya. Page 5 �MCALLISTER: Well it wasn’t really...it wasn’t really concerns like, “I don’t like a black guy.” It was mostly the cultural differences and marriage is tough already and relationships are tough. And you are going to have to think about your kids and what they are going to have to go through. And you have to think about how it is going to put a lot more pressure on your relationship with something that is already tough. And different...just adjustments between coming together and being married and we had only been dating for a few months, so it was like we were jumping to marriage. But that is what we think about long-term. Anyways, so... but she was just if we are coming from two different cultures to try to bring that together and form a family that has a lot more stresses added to just coming t gether and being a family. So those were their concerns initially. And that was really hard because at that time I was preset on dating Dennis and I really loved him and I wanted that to happen. And my mother’s a very stubborn woman, so my dad being the practical one, they both talked to me and said, “Well these are our concerns about it.” And I told them, “I understand that. I think that things are changing. I don’t think things are going to be as tough as you think it’s going to be. Dennis’s background is probably not as different as you think it is.” So just kind of like I guess setting at ease some of their concerns. And then I continued to date Dennis and do that relationship and that was...my mom has the My Way or the Highway policy, so that didn’t really go over well for her, at first. She really thought the longer we were together, the more it was kind of eating at her that this was a bad thing and she was so concerned about all these things. So that was really tough for us because it got to this point where she was just like, “well we don’t approve of this relationship,” and blah blah blah. So we had to get through that. And my response was, “just get to know Dennis because I think you might change your mind.” And that is how my dad responded, of course, because he is the practical one and the other side of it was Dennis. I think it was hard for you to kind of go through that, but Dennis’s attitude was just that he was gonna just show him who he was and try to win them over, I guess. And he did that. And now, my family absolutely loves Dennis and can’t imagine him not being a part of the family. VANBIESBROUCK: So, Dennis, how did you respond or did Christina tell you what her parents were kind of feeling or did you kind of assume? JONES: At first, I didn’t assume at all but then she told me. I was guess I was taken back by it because I had never been in a situation like this. And for me it was like there was not much we could do. It is what it is. And I think I remember telling her... she was...l remember one night she came to me and she was crying, talking about how she was really upset with her mom and I said, “well, it’s okay. I will just prove them wrong.” I think those were pretty much my words. And I said, “it doesn’t matter.” And I said “from what I can see, your family’s great, but it was probably something they never had to deal with before.” And I was like, my family this is not an issue at all. I reassured her that it’s... we don’t really care about color. And my mission was to kill them with kindness and love and be myself. Like me her dad, we got along really well initially and I think him, the way he acted around me and that way he accepted me was kind of the biggest one, always the boyfriend4ather acceptance thing. And that was huge for me. And then for her mom, it was just like it is gonna be a tough one but we can do it. So that one was just a lot of work and I remember... now thinking back to it, I can see that there was times when she was a little more kind of cautious and stuff like that. But now, it doesn’t even matter. MCALLISTER: Now he’s the family favorite. Page 6 �JONES: I am the family favorite which is pretty sweet. Usually they go through a ranking like, “oh, Pat, Dan, Dennis.” And I mean, it’s usually, I’m at the top, so I take the cake. MCALLISTER: The boys have a ranking system. JONES: Yeah, usually as a family. Usually your youngest sister, her boyfriend always comes in last, but we won’t talk about that. But usually I finish at the top. The only reason I am in second right now is because the oldest daughter had kids. MCALLISTER: Can’t compete with the grandkids. JONES: I can’t compete with the grandkids. But I am a damn close second. We usually talk about it sometimes too, me and Pat. MCALLISTER: That is ridiculous. JONES: Pats really fighting hard for the first place but I can’t do anything about the grandkids. Just give it a while til we have our kids, we’ll be in first. VANBIESBROUCK: So for a while it was kinda like they just didn’t know you so they were hesitant, but once they got to know you. JONES: Yeah I think that was the big thing. MCALLISTER: Yes. My dad grew up in West Michigan where there wasn’t a lot of diversity back in the day. And my mom grew up in California where there was a lot of diversity but moved to Michigan when she was probably late twenties early thirties so this a long time ago and things were really different then. So the diversity she got exposed to was kind of more, I mean times were different back then a lot more people were racists and had those kind of thoughts and didn’t accept people and were segregated. So I think that their background and not being exposed to that was the biggest thing that freaked them out. It wasn’t even necessarily because of the way they raised us they were definitely always you shouldn’t think about people’s color it was definitely something that they were always adament about but I think it was when it actually like happened and came to be that they were like whoah, now what. So it just took a while but I think once they kind of got used to the idea and yeah get to know dennis so. VANBIESBROUCK: Were your friends kind of the same way? MCALLISTER: I think our friends were.. VANBIESBROUCK: Well I mean most of our friends knew Dennis before from school. MCALLISTER: Yeah most of my friends did know Dennis before JONES: I think I knew most of your friends before I knew you. Page 7 �MCALLISTER: Yeah. I mean everyone was really accepting, as far as friends. I don’t feel like anyone like in our age group has ever been weird about it or concerned or anything it’s always like “oh yeah we love you guys!”. So that was good, lots of support that way which is good. VANBIESBROUCK: And your grandparents were the same way? JONES: Well my grandma was the biggest one, she didn’t care who she was. My grandma was like as long as she knows Christ, your fine with her. If you didn’t get out of there so my grandma never really, she was the biggest one, she never saw color ever since I have known her she never cared. Her biggest thing was, like I was saying we have a huge Christian background, it was Christ your good in her book or even if you didn’t it’s not like she hated you but she definitely let know Jesus was the way type of deal. She would sit out on her porch and talk to any and everybody that came by, like all the kids in the neighborhood loved her, she was that type of lady. So color was never an issue she I mean she worked for a white lady for a while if I’m not mistaken, like cleaning her house and stuff like that. So it was not like slave labor or anything like that it was definitely like they were good friends and she just helped her out like that. One of her best friends I can remember was a white lady. VANBIESBROUCK: So like your parents and grandparents are they like the main reason why your so open to different ethnicities or is that just how you are as a person? JONES: I think it’s a little bit of both. I mean, my family has always told me I was different when I was younger ha and they still tell me I’m different like they don’t understand me. Just because I’m a lot of off the wall stuff but just personality stuff they don’t understand, like if you put me in the middle of a forest with a bunch of Indians and ask I could probably start talking to them about a bunch of stuff haha that’s just the way I am. So they don’t understand where I got that from because my dad is a fairly quiet man and my morn is I don’t know she is kind of shy when she meets new people and stuff like that but for me its just like whatever. I don’t know it’s a combination of the way I was raised and developing into a new person. MCALLISTER: My dad’s grandma is really quiet, she doesn’t say much but she has always liked you. JONES: Yeah she has always been nice to me, she never really said anything. I don’t know I’ve always been, unless she hates me and I don’t know about it. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she is really quiet, she doesn’t really say a lot but she has always been nice to Dennis. JONES: She gives me hugs. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she likes Dennis. You’ve never met my grandpa. JONES: No I’ve never met your mom’s dad. MCALLISTER: He married a very southern woman, remarried. My grandma died and then he remarried this lady and I know she doesn’t approve of our relationship. She has never met Dennis and neither has he but she likes to speak her southern piece about it. She’s kind of crazy. But um we had a family Page 8 �reunion this last summer and Dennis met my great uncles and aunts, so my grandpa’s brothers and sisters, were all there and then my uncles and aunts. Everybody like loved Dennis so, even my great uncles and aunts, we talked about it like they are from anothergeneration they are all in their gosh sixties seventies, no they have to be older than that now. JONES: yeah seventies. MCALLISTER: At least seventies some of them are in their eighties I think. So totally different generation and we talked about it like it might be a little weird. JONES: And my response was yeah I don’t care haha. MCALLISTER: Yeah. but they loved him, he was there for the first like day or two and then first two days and then he left because he had his own family reunion and the next day when Dennis was gone they were all like Dennis is so great we really like him blah blah blah. My great aunt invited the two of us up to her house in Canada so ha were gonna go up there sometime. But yeah, I was actually really surprised with how accepting they were. Not that I would expect them to be different but just that generations are different and sometimes you never know, people have these strange opinions. VANBIESBROUCK: So like when you two were talking to your parents about each other what was the first thing you told them like Christina did you tell your parents like the first thing you told them was it Dennis is black or was that like the last thing? MCALLISTER: No I actually didn’t really say that at all. I kind of thought that they would just be like that they wouldn’t care at all. And that’s probably me being a little bit naive because of the fact that I never had any black friends and here I am bringing home this black guy, yeah I really like I want to date him haha. They of course are probably going to be like wait at minute. so no obviously I don’t even think I told them that at all and then when I brought him home, they were like oh he’s black ha ha. JONES: Yeah my family just assumed she was a different race. MCALLISTER: Hahaha JONES: They were just like, they knew like ah she’s white huh, and I was like yeah type of deal. But it wasn’t a big thing it was kind of like family joking and fun but it wasn’t a big thing. They were happy, they were pretty happy. They have never said anything about race or anything like that. But yeah, they literally just assumed. “Hey morn I’m dating somebody”, “Oh alright she’s white huh”, “Yup” haha. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it frustrating for either one of you, or Dennis for your family that Christina’s family kind of had reservations about it? JONES: umm VANBIESBROUCK: Or about you two? Page 9 �JONES: I actually, it was kind of one of those things I decided to keep to myself. I didn’t want my family to pre-judge her family. Unless they asked I said something, my morn asked and I think that was one of my biggest, or my mom’s biggest concerns, was them being accepting of me. And she was kind of like, well my mom is kind of one of those conspiracy theorists I like to think. My dad was just like alright make the right choices, see you later. My mom she will talk to me for 15 hours about the same thing. I think her biggest thing was well how those things can go. Something happens with you and her and they will blame it on you and try and go after you and I’m like mom it’s not like that at all haha, oh my gosh she formulates all of these crazy things, its kind of funny but ridiculous at the same time. And that was just her biggest concern, if anything big ever happened like what would they do, would they kind of hold a grudge against me not only because I did something to their daughter their baby but it was a black man that did it. So that was my mom’s biggest concern and I was like ahh it’s not that big of deal. I’m not stupid I’m not gonna do anything crazy. If anyone breaks up she will be the one who breaks up with me. I don’t know why I thought that haha but that’s just the way I thought of it. VANBIESBROUCK: So like in the beginning of your relationship would you guys say you, was like harder because her family was kind of hesitant or was it just one of those things where its something they thought it might be hard whereas a Christian family might think it’s hard to dat a Catholic but you get over it. Was it the same thing? JONES: In a way. I think it was mainly for me, her parents. I wanted to make sure her parents were ok with me and winning her parents over. Her sisters were, they just didn’t care. They were like oh yeah he’s great type of deal, and so for me it was just her parents. I just wanted acceptance of the parents. MCALLISTER: I mean it was hard for a while. But they did get over it and pretty quickly. And my family really does love Dennis now. VANBIESBROUCK: So is it weird going to a white household for a while, have you learned any new traditions or like weird things that your family doesn’t do? JONES: Haha yeah there are a few, I can’t name them, but there was one thing I don’t know. Like just, I guess Thanksgiving we call it “soul food” haha. We call it dressing, what you guys call stuffing. And I remember my mom, like parents told me “your like a chameleon you can take on the attitude and shape of anybody your around. If your around Mexicans you will somehow try and speak Spanish. Or if your around white people how to talk like a white person and be like a white person. If you’re around black people, you may not know how to talk like a black person but how to sound like, bionics, be around them and how to hold a conversation”. VANBIESBROUCK: Like fit in. JONES: Yeah. And then so I don’t know I went home and like unconsciously I was like yeah I’ll get some stuffing and my mom goes “what did you just say”, I was like “ah I meant dressing sorry”. Haha like I know it’s a taboo but just simple things like that with food and stuff. I don’t think like cultural things. I think this is funny, like, face towels-we use face towels all the time at home to wash up and take showers and stuff like that and every time I’m like you don’t use face towel? No I don’t need a face towel why would I need a face towel to wash up, a face towel is for your face. That’s kind of one Page 10 �different thing, and they are like you picked that up off those white people. I’m like no I didn’t I’ve always been that way! Anyway. I think that for me is just kind of the funny things. VANBIESBROUCK: Any for you? MCALLISTER: Yeah. The first time I went to Dennis’s house it was really crazy. I couldn’t understand what anyone was saying like the whole time I was there. Well his dad has a really deep, southern accent so he is like impossible to understand, well he was at first. JONES: I’m like the only one that can understand my dad. Most people, like my brothers and sisters, after he comes back from being down south they can’t even understand him. But for me it’s like oh yeah I’ll go get that for you and they are like what did he say? So I knew my dad would be a tough person for her to understand in the first place anyway. MCALLISTER: Yeah but , it was definitely like a lot more of a culture shock than what I thought it was going to be because like spending time with Dennis I knew his habits and things like that about him but he is like a white black man and I didn’t really realize his family is not that way haha. VANBIESBROUCK: How long had you been dating Dennis before you met his family? MCALLISTER: Four months. So, gosh I can’t remember. Yeah it was hard to understand them, they always liked to talk about past experiences and like family stuff. They have all these like family stories and secrets, not like secrets but jokes or whatever. And so I like didn’t say very much at all the first time I was there and um, and then we went to let’s see, we went to their church and that was really crazy haha. Um I had never been to a black church before and it was very interesting. It was really loud, everyone was singing and dancing. Lots of amen’s and thank you Jesus, lots of that kind of thing. I had never seen his dad talk like that before. JONES: Yeah my dad is super quiet at home, doesn’t say much, but when he talks its like very profound and so wisdom filled and your like man! And then when he gets in front of the pulpit he will talk for hours and hours upon end and your like shut up I want to go home and watch the bears game. Sometimes by brother and I will sit in the back and kind of give him the cut throat like you need to stop. MCALLISTER: Ha well it’s not just talking he like goes on rants. JONES: Yeah he takes a lot of rabbit trails when he’s preaching so she was like I didn’t understand a word or I didn’t understand the message at all. MCALLISTER: Yeah it was very different. I was used to like teaching out of scripture he was just going on. VANBIESBROUCK: Or like an outline to follow? MCALLISTER: Yeah, which I later learned that’s what they do in their bible study. They do that before but the service we went to, I don’t know, was like a praise and worship service. That’s what it seemed like to me. Page 11 �JONES: A lot of church in my family growing up, they have so many different services I can’t even remember them all its crazy. MCALLISTER: So that was probably the craziest thing that I experienced first. JONES: That was my biggest fear, was taking her to church with my family. I still am like I don’t want you going to church with my family) don’t want you to like run away haha. Seriously. MCALLISTER: (didn’t’ run away, I was clapping and singing and I got really into it! JONES: I still am afraid to take her home, to church and we’ve been dating three and a half four years. VANBIESBROUCK: So that’s not the type of church that you would want to go to as a couple? Or Dennis you just like white people’s church better? JONES: For me, it doesn’t bother me I just want her to be comfortable because I’ve seen everything being in a black church. So I think for her (just want to see her comfortable and I can pretty much fit in with any scene. I like the church that we go to now. MCALLISTER: We go to my family’s church now. JONES: That was funny, I was terrified to bring her home. I was like man I don’t know what my family’s going to do, they are going to embarrass me. (think that was my biggest thing rather than race I was like I hope they don’t say anything stupid. VANBIESBROUCK: Did they make jokes about Christina being pale or anything? JONES: My mom made a couple of jokes. MCALLISTER: Yeah actually the first time I was there they did. It was funny. JONES: My family is very like joking, like we make fun of each other all the time. I think that’s typical with a lot of black families. That’s kind of how we express our love. We just make fun of each other haha. Like me and my brother, we never really tell each other I love you but it’s kind of one of those things . Me and him always grew up making fun of each other, my sister too. Like I’ll call her and be like “hey what’s up ugly how you doing”, she’s like “oh hey stupid” its just like oh ok like understood that we love each other. Even bringing in the way I grew up, that was kind of one of the tougher things because my family doesn’t really express a lot of love and we’re not like super touchy feely. And that was actually kind of the way I was raised and seeing my dad express his love for my mom and that was tough because that’s what I grew up around and thought it was normal, apparently it’s not. I mean not that it’s not normal but a different way of, like I would show her my love through just acts and stuff like that. MCALLISTER: Slapping me on the shoulder ha. JONES: Yeah and uh for her it was like “why don’t you tell me you love me, why don’t you do this for me, or take care of that for me”? And I’m like what I thought I was showing you I loved you. So I think it was, Page 12 �just being around that too growing up, was kind of one of our tougher hurdles. Learning the love language. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it, I mean is Christina like anybody else you’ve dated before? JONES: No actually. I don’t think I ever really haha. MCALLISTER: Normally he is really into chubby blonde girls haha. JONES: That’s not true at all! Couple blunders in my dating career but I got a couple lookers in there. I’ve had some good-looking girls, maybe not dated them but hahah but it’s not a big deal. You haven’t had quite the greatest dating career in your path either have you. MCALLISTER: I’ve had lots of great guys. JONES: A lot of questionable decisions there huh. No but I forgot the question haha. VANBIESBROUCK: Ha, if she is like anyone you’ve dated. JONES: Ah no she’s not. Totally different from any other girl I’ve dated. VANBIESBROUCK: Personality-wise? JONES: Yup, personality-wise, yeah real different. And I think that’s what drew me to her. I was like oh she might be a keeper. And then haha, also the also her faith and everything. That was something that really kind of got me. My mom was like “if you find a girl that believes in God and trusts in God that’s really rare in this world now a days and she’s like if you find a girl that, you need to keep her”. And I remember those words. And I remember one time I was home for a holiday and my uncle who, which I thought was kind of funny, was kind of a ladies man and like kind of a player/dog. And he was just a dog, dirty dog, but I love him. He was like “well son I’ll tell you one thing, if you find a girl that can make you change then that’s a girl you need to keep” and I remember those were two big things that made me really search in her to make to be like is this someone I want to keep in my life and marry. And I still can say I hold true to those words and she has definitely lived up to those. MCALLISTER: Aww JONES: Oh geez now I’m getting mushy haha. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis is nothing like a guy you’ve dated before? MCALLISTER: no not really. He is a lot different I guess, there are certain traits that are similar to certain guys but I guess overall in general he is pretty unique. obviously I’ve never dated a black guy before so that was new haha. I guess the things that I liked about hirn was that he was always really friendly, outgoing, really easygoing, really easy to get along with. Probably, the guys I dated before were a lot rnore emotional and like crabby. JONES: She liked pretty boys and skinny Jean type guys Page 13 �MCALLISTER: No I didn’t JONES: Yes you did. You liked the emo kids. MCALLISTER: That’s not ever true. I never even dated an erno guy. I dated a country bumpkin, and an athlete. That’s pretty much it. JONES: doesn’t count as an athlete. Hahahaha. MCALLISTER: He doesn’t count as an athlete. He doesn’t count as anything. I didn’t even put his narne on this recording. JONES: She can ‘X” it out. Hahahaha MCALLISTER: anyways, yeah I forgot the question. VANBIESBROUCK: So I guess like, you guys’ personalities kind of trump the fact that, that you are different ethnically? JONES: Yup MCALLISTER: Yup definitely. JONES: for me yup. MCALLISTER: yeah. JONES: I would have to say, that is definitely the biggest part for me that was the biggest one. MCALLISTER: Our families met this summer. JONES: Yeah thats wierd that our families actually met for the first time after, well being so far away and, being 4hrs. away is always tough to try and coordinate something, yeah. MCALLISTER: Both busy. JONES: Yeah are families met for the first time this summer it was, I though it went pretty well. MCALLISTER: Yeah it went great. My ah, JONES: My mom was kind of quiet, kind of I thought. My Brother does, he always talks. He did a lot of talking. I kind of wanted him to shut up, but thats fine. You’ve met my brother before. Like before you met my whole family, you met my brother. Cuz he was running track and we went to one of his track meets in Grand Rapids. It was me, you, ted and Hilary. It was, never mind I won’t put that on tape. I was going to say it was the first time I farted in front of you. Hahahahaha. MCALLISTER: oh yeah, umm. JONES: It prolly caught it. Hahahaha Page 14 �VANBIESBROUCK: Probably. MCALLISTER: No it went, it went really good. I think we both were a little bit nervous for. I mean my side of the family with our history and then. Even, even with Dennis’ family, like his mom is pretty quiet and can be kind of, I don’t know, introverted I guess. VANBIESBROUCK: Like she knew how your family felt about it? MCALLISTER: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know that that was really a concern at that point. JONES: I don’t know, My mom is kind of, I, I don’t know. MCALLISTER: maybe. JONES: It could have been. I don’t know. I can say that my mom kind of does have a tendency not to forget things. That could have been it. But my dad he’s just naturally quiet so he wasn’t going to talk anyway, unless. MCALLISTER: He, he was talking. JONES: but yeah, yeah he was talking. I think he is more worried about if, His biggest thing is if people can understand him. He, He’s got a little bit of a slur. When he grew up, he had a slight speech impediment, and his brothers kind of had to translate for him alot. So he, he is very conscious of the way he talks and stuff like that. So my dad is a little more quiet unless he is over the pulpit which it should be reversed. Um and then my mom she is usually very outgoing. But she is very shy when she meets new people or is in a new setting and she is. First of all she is deathly terrified because she thought we were going to go out on a boat and she hates the water. And she was terrified that they had dogs, and she hates dogs. And I’m like you are ridiculous. Like my dad he doesn’t care about dogs, but my mom is “Oh my gosh they got dogs can you ask them to put them away”. I was like mom, you’re going to visit over to someone’s house are you going, Luckly, I know them well enough to where they would do this for us and I was like I’ll ask ‘em. And so for me I was like you have all these reservations and questions, ugh. I think they briefly met at my graduation, but it wasn’t like for an extended period of time. Everybody was kind of out in their own worlds. So. But. VANBIESBROUCK: Didn’t your mom say something that was.. MCALLISTER: oh yeah (Laughter) First of all, what did she get, yeah she got orange pop, I told her, she was asking what, well do they like to eat? What do they like to do? And I told them like, Dennis’ mom don’t do a lot of water sports, she’s afraid of the water. She doesn’t like dogs also, so we put the dogs away and all that stuff. And then she’s like what do they like to eat? Well, they eat a lot and they like just about anything but, I was saying a few things that I knew that they liked that we had before, and I was like they like grape drink. I know it’s a stereotype but they really do like it. So she went out and bought orange pop, she didn’t even buy the right thing. And then at dinner she was giving drinks to everybody she’s like “Christina told me that you guys like orange pop”. And I was so embarrassed... JONES: She said “you guys”. I was like aahh. Page 15 �MCALLISTER: I mean, no one was offended but it was funny. JONES: She is very hospitable and nice. And her mom just has a tendency just to say things, and that was just one of those things. That was pretty funny. I was just like “ooohh..’ (laughter) MCALLISTER: My niece and nephew loved Dennis’ mom. They were snuggled up to her for most of the night. JONES: Yeah, Cameron, he was just sleeping. Maddie had a ton and ton of stories for my mom. My mom didn’t understand a word she was saying probably. But... and then she was like “ooh this is the little baby you always talk about.” And I was like yeah, she’s adorable. My mom used to run a daycare so she really loves kids. VANBIESBROUCK: So after they met, did either one of your parents tell you “Oh, I was expecting it to go this way, but it was really great, or...” JONES: To tell you the truth I haven’t really talked to my parents. Or, I’ve talked to them since then, just haven’t asked my parents what they thought. My brother and my sister were like “Oh it was really great I loved it, it was really good to sit down and talk to them and get to know them a little better.” So my brother and my sister were excited and happy about it. I guess I should probably talk to my parents. I think it went good, in my opinion. I don’t know, maybe I’m overlooking stuff. But I thought it was good. Sounds like a business meeting. (laughter) MCALLISTER: Um, no, my parents were good. I think my mom was nervous about... She was nervous about having people over anyways... And I think she was nervous aboutJONES: “My house is a mess, oh my gosh!” MCALLISTER: -Yeah, I mean, impressing them, well not impressing them, but making them feel comfortable and welcome. like a hostess I guess. She’s like that with everybody. But I think because it was Dennis’ family she felt a little more pressure. So, I don’t know. I think it went really well though. My mom said “Oh Dennis’ family is so nice and it was so nice to spend time with them.” That’s pretty much what everyone in my family said. So she invited them back up for another time. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: -For more orange drink... (Laughter) MCALLISTER: Yeah for more orange drink, and for a ride on the lake. Page 16 �JONES: My dad would go, but my mom would just freak out. She’s like “we’re not going on the boat right?” I was like I told you three weeks ago that we’re not going on the boat. I don’t need to tell you again, If do i might take you on the boat just to scare the crap out of you. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So have you guys noticed that whenever you go out on a date or you go hang out with people have you noticed that people treat you different? Or do the people that you see in restaurants and stuff, they just don’t care? JONES: To me, in my perspective, I don’t know about Christina, but to me the people in west michigan... I don’t know, I guess it depends on the area, where you’re at. But most people it doesn’t seem like they really care. I don’t know we’ve never really received any snide remarks, I guess a couple of whoops from black girls. Like “what is he doing with her?” (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: They’re just jealous. JONES: I don’t know but when we’re out, I guess I never really pay attention to people. This is just who I am, I always keep my head down when i walk and i’ll put my head up when i see someone, kind of make eye contact. But, I don’t know. I always keep my head down or look at her when we’re out and walking and stuff like that. And then I think with society and the way we were raised and our generation, it’s normal. So I don’t think a lot of people care. VANBIESBROUCK: Yeah, so you expect it more from older people. JONES: But yeah now i think that even more older people are starting to say “Ahh, what the heck it’s no big deal.” I mean if I went down south I’d probably get lynched... (Laughter) No I’m just kidding, I’m kidding. That was a joke, totally too far, I know. VANBIESBROUCK: What about you Christina? Have you noticed... MCALLISTER: No, I don’t notice those things at all anyways. But , I definitely haven’t noticed anything like that. JONES: I don’t think we’ve ever received like a... VANBIESBROUCK: We’ve had a lot of people like, well, in church, Dennis is the only black guy in our church (laughs). And I was actually kind of nervous about that. Because. Not nervous that it would go badly but nervous that he would feel uncomfortable or awkward. But we had so many people come up to us and like “Hi, so nice to meet you” and whatever. And people who know Dennis now love him. We’re helping out in the youth group now. The leaders are all about him and the kids all love him, I think it’s cool he’s black. JONES: I think it’s funny, the youth retreat we went out on it this weekend. And I think just like being out towards Grand Haven/Spring Lake area there’s not a lot of black people. But all the kids were kinda Page 17 �telling jokes and I tell a black joke and they’re all like (gasp) and I’m like “no it’s okay, you can laugh!” And they’re like “okay!” (laughs) To me honestly I think it’s hilarious when people are really cautious about saying black or african american... I could really care less. I remember like for me, I don’t know why they see it as a challenge and they’re like “Oh yeah, let me go talk to him” (laughter). Like we were just at a wedding and the guy goes “yeah my grandma, she’s kind of racist.” And I go “really? Can I meet her? Like I want to talk to her.” And he’s like “sure but I don’t know...” I was like “I don’t care, I want to talk to her and just see what happens.” Like that’s just really, I guess I kind of see it as a challenge. And (laughs) I don’t know, that’s just kind of my attitude toward everything. Like I mean, to me it’s like I don’t see any reason to put skin color above a person. So, I don’t know. Ever since I’ve been growing up between me and my group of friends we’ve always got racial jokes and stuff like that. Not just about black people and stuff like that but about other races obviously it’s joking amongst friends and stuff like that (laughs). VANBIESBROUCK: So Christina you mentioned how your mom was saying how it would possibly affect your kids. Have you guys talked about that? Or do you think it would even be an issue in the years to come? MCALLISTER: Um, I mean we’ve talked about it, But I don’t think it will be a big issue. I think that the longer we’re together, the less that I see color in Dennis and the more I see just us in our relationship. And those fears just kind of fade away as we’re kind of bringing our lives together and as we’re deciding how we’re going to, as a couple, raise our kids. And i think that’s kind of everyone’s concern is just making sure that we raise them how we wanna raise them and not really worrying about race. Because if we bring them up right then it’s not even going to be an issue. So I guess that’s kind of... We make jokes about, “well what if they marry black kids? Or what if they marry white kids?” (laughs) But , I don’t think it would matter either way for us. JONES: No. I guess to me i kind of see that it is, nowadays, you always see mixed kids. I mean when I was growing up in public school I was always around a ton of mixed kids. you get the looks like “man why are your eyes green and your hair is kinda course like a black person?” (Laughter) Or like, those types of things you wonder. But growing up around it and , seeing it more prevalent, in Hollywood and more now around our age, and once we’re starting to recognize the differences in people... It doesn’t really dawn on me what will my kids think. To me, they’ll fit in just fine. MCALLISTER: People have talked about as mixed kids, do you identify with the black culture or the white culture? I think the cultures are mixing in together a little bit more. And I think our focus is just going to be on raising them in I guess a culoture that we feel is healthy and right and appropriate. And hopefully they won’t identify with... Hopefully they’ll be chameleons like Dennis. That they’ll feel comfortable around anyone and everyone. that they won’t see that. They will just see people. JONES: I think more or less, once you stop focusing on skin color you kind of forget. “Oh yeah I forgot you were black. Or I forgot you were Mexican.” (Laughs) I remember in high school our coach was black but he is married to a white woman and one day we had this huge team sleep over, kind of like a team building thing. And we were going through their house and we were like “Oh yeah,” Like we saw a picture of our coach, our coach was black, and we saw a Page 18 �picture of him and his family and they were all like “Oh, yeah” It was one of those things that dawns on me like it’s one of those things where you really see a person for a person, and not skin color. You really do forget, to me I forget, and I’m like “oh yeah that is right, they really are different than I am.” Skin color-wise. MCALLISTER: I’m a little worried about our kids’ hair. JONES: Yeah she’s always like “You’re gonna have to do their hair, ‘cause I don’t know how to do it.” Like if it’s a boy it’s alright ‘cause I know how to cut hair. I’ll cut his hair right off. MCALLISTER: That’s our biggest concern right now. VANBIESBROUCK: Is hair? (Laughter) JONES: Yeah, I’ll have to teach her the ropes if they come out with coarse hair like black people. I’ll show her how to do it. If they come out with white people hair that’s totally up her alley. MCALLISTER: The poor girls are gonnna be hopeless. JONES: Ah no, my cousins came out with good hair, with white people hair. I don’t know why we say white people or black people hair. fine hair. Non-coarse hair. There ain’t nothing wrong with my hair! (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So do you guys have anything that you would want to say to someone who was against interracial relationships? Or is it kind of like you have to be in one to really understand? JONES: Hmm.. Give it a try. No I’m just kidding. (Laughter) No I guess coming from, I mean I’ve had my times were skin color is an issue and I’ve seen both sides where people accept you and people reject you. And I think my biggest thing is , it may sound kind of cliché, but it was so long ago. like give it up. If all you see is color then you’re just, in my book, just kind of lost. Of course that’s how society is raised, that’s how society sees people, as their skin color. It’s stereotypes. But if you don’t get to know the person then you’re doing yourself a big disservice basically by judging a book by it’s cover. If Christina had never talked to me, she’s never been around black people, she’s probably just like he’s another one of those ghetto people just trying to chase basketball dreams (laughs). But not me! I was ready to give up basketball for crying aloud. But , it’s just one of those things where I think to me, this is how I see it. You’re not doing anything to me, you’re just doing more harm to yourself by harboring that hatred and harboring those feelings. To me, I’m fine. You can look at me all day and say “Oh my gosh blah blah” it’s not doing anything to me. It’s hurting you more than me. MCALLISTER: I don’t know, I guess with me it’s the same kind of thing. I haven’t had to deal with any of that kind of stuff my whole life so I guess it’s not something I’ve been real passionate about. Haven’t had a lot of personal experience, just in this relationship and with our families a little bit. I can say that when my parents were having a hard time with it I told them that they just need to get to know Dennis. I said Page 19 �“to me, this is worth whatever problems we might have because of this. This relationship is worth it. that’s all. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44cabebbd26511771c337b16da8e3465.mp3 c0c1ce94fa97fa75a004fc24da4c4e7e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McAllister_Christina Title A name given to the resource Christina McAllister audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McAllister, Christina Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Matro, Philip Brunner, Douglas Vanbiesbrouck Description An account of the resource Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a439aced87ed7185d2660dff223507f2.pdf 9675f36ea32682280c9efbd63811f95e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Jose Jimenez Interviewers: Timothy Robertson, Ashlie Hood and Angelica Perez Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/24/2012 Biography and Description Jose Jimenez was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico and lived in Chicago. He discusses his experiences as the leader of the Young Lords and an activist for Latin Americans. Transcript JIMENEZ: So the name of the class is what? HOOD: US diversity, diversity in the US JIMENEZ: Oh diversity, ok ROBERTSON: So we will essentially be conducting an oral history which I’m sure you have way more with experience than we do JIMENEZ: No I don’t have any experience this is my first time that I’m doing the history, the oral history ROBERTSON: Oh nice, right on JIMENEZ: Yeah I don’t have any experience ROBERTSON: Then it will be a new experience for the both of us; essentially we will be running through basic history about you JIMENEZ: Ok ROBERTSON: Integrating a few points of what kind of built you personally and then like your opinion of home JIMENEZ: Ok where do you want to start, what’s your name again? HOOD: Ashlie JIMENEZ: Ashlie? Ok I’m José, ok ROBERTSON: To start actually if we can get some basic information about you Page 1 �JIMENEZ: You do have a lot of questions? Or is that ROBERTSON: Well these are… JIMENEZ: Background stuff ROBERTSON: Yeah, they JIMENEZ: Ok ROBERTSON: Just some basic questions JIMENEZ: (laughing) ROBERTSON: We kind of developed our own from this so JIMENEZ: Ok so you want some basic personal questions first or ROBERTSON: Yup. Yeah the first, if you could introduce yourself JIMENEZ: Ok, I’m José Jimenez, the nickname I’ve had for most of my life is cha cha, C-H-A C-H-A (spelling out cha cha) and I got that, it was more like a people in the neighborhoods usually get nicknames in a negative way so they were kind of little racial in nature because this guy used to call another black person sambo and he called me a cha cha cha, and so as more, I was just a little kid, but as more Latinos came into the neighborhood. I, I kind of liked the name cha cha so I just kept it, some people get called frog face or whatever, (Ha-ha) I just kind of liked the name cha cha ROBERTSON: If you could tell us date of birth and location JIMENEZ: Ok, I was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico. My family is from the country but of course I was born in the city, in the town because my older sister had died and my mother was worried because there was no medical treatment in the country so she moved to the town of Caguas but us when I went back to Puerto Rico when I was fifteen years old, all I knew was the country. I came straight from Chicago back to the country there. It was actually a good experience because I spent a lot of time with my grandfather, Egragrorio Jimenez, and I mean I had to use the two bulls to turn ground and… ROBERTSON: Oh wow JIMENEZ: And coming from Chicago there was real whole awakening for me. The whole country, the whole culture, the music of the people that they had there so I was able to catch a lot to really appreciate the country life of Puerto Rico there ROBERTSON: Kind of to bounce off that, what kind of ancestry did you have? JIMENEZ: I had, well my great grandfather and my great grandfather, they’re all Puerto Rican so. On my mother’s side there’s a lady that comes directly from Spain but basically we’ve been Puerto Ricans for generations. We came when I was two years old, my father did not own his own property, he did not own his own farm so he worked on other peoples farms. At the time they called them agregaros, so Page 2 �aggregated or connected because they were able to get some space for their house in somebody else’s land and that’s how you make a living, you work for the farmer and so there was a large farmer named Jimenez which is my last name and he worked for him, a lot of people worked for him at that time. Later on my grandfather was able to purchase a lot a large a lot where his sons and daughters were able to work because there were about 13 or 14 of them, brothers and sisters so siblings. So they were able each of them to have their own section, and so things improved later, after this large land owner Jimenez left the area. Ah, well that was just the way of life. People were not angry with him, it wasn’t like slavery or anything like that it’s just that he had money and he was able to provide for other people at that time, it was his business. from my father, because he worked at the farm it was easy for him to, when the united states was having trouble with Mexican workers because of their documentation and their papers and that Puerto Ricans were citizens of the united states so the united states, the US companies went to Puerto Rico to bring Puerto Ricans here to work in the fields, so my father came and he worked by concord Massachusetts when there was still farm land at that time and he did that since 1945-46 and then he moved up and they let him drive a tractor because he spoke a little English and so he went back and brought other people to, to near Boston to the Andy voy farms. Andy voy farms were connected, they were the farms providing vegetables to Campbell’s Soup Company because I tried to do some research on them and that’s what I found out. But so he was bringing in people so, but the conditions were not that well because they would come and they would have to work from early in the morning to late at night and they had nothing else to do to socialize, I mean a lot of them started drinking alcohol became their way to relax on the weekends because on the weekdays they had no time to relax and they and they didn’t know anybody. ROBERTSON: It certainly becomes a social conflict JIMENEZ: Yeah yeah, so he did that for a few years and then he brought my mother and myself to concord and then my sister Juana was born there and from me moved, after he brought us here. I guess even though we had our own little cottage life, I guess he didn’t like that environment for us, for the family environment. It was mostly just men working there. Although my mother, she started making money ironing clothes, and she was making more money that he was. Because she was ironing clothes for the men and the place ROBERTSON: Mmhmmmm JIMENEZ: But there were more family in Chicago so his sisters and brothers were I Chicago so he decided to move to Chicago in 1950 and that’s when we lived in a, what they called a new barrio, a neighborhood a new community because it was developing in Chicago at that time. So everybody kind of knew each other, I would say there was maybe ten thousand Puerto Ricans at that time in the city and they were kind of spread out like Clark, around Chicago avenue, Clark was a neighborhood developing, it was a Puerto Rican neighborhood, it actually was it actually was a skit row area because there was a lot of hotels that they were converting into apartments and rooms and stuff like that it was a little rent. They were ready to tear down the buildings and so there was low rent and that was where Puerto Ricans can go. I mean most of them were migrant workers anyways so they were just coming Page 3 �there to work for a few years and to go back, the same as my father was doing in concord Massachusetts ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: But this time it was in a city and factories and they were trying to make enough money to go back but the plane fair was very expensive and then it wasn’t just the plane fair but when you went back to Puerto Rico, you had to put a fassad, like you had money. So you go there and everybody’s expecting you to buy drinks and everybody’s expecting you to wear the best clothing and everybody’s expecting you to act like your upper class because you have money and you’re an Americano, you’ve been to the united states and so those things were hampered with the travel back and forth because people had to put their fassad to pretend that they were something that they weren’t. ROBERTSON: That’s an interesting condition though, I mean to me essentially what you’re saying is that the condition I Puerto Rico was just a lack of employment and that’s what drove you to the states JINENEZ: Exactly that was very you k know when there is employment here at 90% you’re looking at even at right now 30% in Puerto Rico so it’s definitely by triple the amount that it is here so those were bad times there in the early 50’s, late 40’s and people were looking, there was a big migration at that time of Puerto Ricans coming not only to Chicago but to the Midwest and the steel mills and to the hotels they had a, my uncles had a favorite quote that they used to talk, if you asked them what kind of work they were in they would say that they were gravando discos making records. What they meant by that they were spinning records, what they meant by that they were washing dishes (Tim and Ashlie begin to laugh) because there were so many of them that were living in the well they were working in the hotels in Chicago we lived like six blocks away from the downtown so I mean that was and that kind of created a bad problem later because it was prime real estate so the few Puerto Ricans that were able to buy some houses cheap resold them cheap then there was a whole land grabbed in that area of downtown which is where we came in later, we were, cause we kept moving, we didn’t know, I mean we were not connected to the city at all, we were not connected to the politicians or anything like that or we didn’t pay attention, our parents didn’t pay attention to the news or anything like that because they didn’t speak English ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: And we were young we didn’t care about it and we were like disconnected from the city. Like Mexicans are today, a lot of Mexican people immigrants, are today they are kind of in their own world they’re disconnected and that went like that for a while through generation until we started to go to school and making our own little connections and that but, so we kept moving from one place, we lived there for a few years then we got pushed out of there and moved to another place and so you read in some of the books today that Latinos or Puerto Ricans moved a lot but what they didn’t say was that it would be renewed and being pushed out from on, I mean because we didn’t know that they were trying to re develop the whole lake front ROBERTSON: Okay Page 4 �JIMENEZ: So we just kept moving north along the lake front and so we kept on being pushed out ROBERTSON: So that that berry field then pushed you farther away from downtown JIMENEZ: Right and then they were trying to develop the downtown and the lake front so we were always near downtown I mean because of our jobs because we were with the dishwashers, the women with the hotel, with the maids, with the rich people, they cleaned people’s houses and companies were recruiting women from Puerto Rico to do that and they I can’t think of the name right now of one of the companies but they actually they companies and it was cheap labor they were looking for that and you’re dealing with citizens, you’re not dealing with someone that is not a citizen. Puerto Ricans were born citizens. In 1966 we were getting were for our first world war, and so we were made citizens of the united states, there was no vote or anything like that, they just said you we’re giving you this right to be a citizen and the next day you got to go to war ROBERTSON: Of course JIMENEZ: But it’s true, why would you become a citizen in 1917, what was going on was the war you k now ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: So anyway we were citizens and it gave us some benefits it’s not, so yeah there were some benefits that came with that those benefits made us more independent but you’re talking about food stamp benefits, that we didn’t have before so those benefits were good. We have a lot of companies in Puerto Rico but the owners are over here I mean if you own a business and you’re over here, you’re the one that’s making the main money I mean you’re giving jobs to some people, but you’re the one that’s making the profit so it was like that but, I’m saying that because the whole fight that happened with the young lords later was about self-determination of like Puerto Rico. We believed that Puerto Rico should determine their own destiny and it nothing against the United States believes the same thing I mean they fought their war against England so I mean we believed the same thing. We don’t disrespect the American flag we can’t because we want to respect our flag; we want to fly our own. Right now you have to fly both flags, there was a time in the 30’s when Puerto Ricans were made, they were forced to speak only English in school, that’s crazy. Somebody’s not going to go to Germany and tell everybody ok, you got to speak English now (laughing). ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: What I am saying, no more German allowed that’s what they did to Puerto Rico not everybody but the people in charge. We definitely don’t blame the American people, just the people in charge and I grew up over here so but anyways I got off on in a tangent here ROBERTSON: It’s all right JIMENEZ: So we came to Puerto Rico to la Clark, was the neighborhood we called it and then there was another community called la Madison which was right around down town on the other side, on the western part of it but they actually were together except there was an express way that divides or the Page 5 �Kennedy, that divides up the two neighborhoods so basically we lived downtown and we lived near the lake front, basically we lived in that community. But there was two barrios, there was two neighborhoods that were being built at that time, one was la Clark and one was la Madison. Now people from both la Clark and la Madison moved into Lincoln Park or Wicker Park. And that is where my generation grew up, in either wicker park or Lincoln park and so that’s all knew of Puerto Rico again I can’t remember I was only two years old and most of us came when we were young so we didn’t know anything about Puerto Rico but in our neighborhood here in Chicago and so to us that was our Puerto Rico and all of sudden after were there for like 15, 20 years, here comes the bull dozers again and here comes the urban renewal program and they wanted to evict us again, except this time they’re not evicting our parents, they’re evicting us and we grew up here ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: And so were saying we can’t go for this anymore, we have to do something and that’s kind of how the young lords started. We were just hanging out on the corner I mean we didn’t care about anything, we wanted to listen to music, smoke a little weed, drink a little wine, and have a good time and some of us were soldiers, we went to the service and once in a while we got a little mischief. We would cut the hippies hair (Tim and Ashlie laughing) or jump on the sailors. Some of us probably, I remember going to the dances and there was about eight of us with different stoning cars that we got to just go to the party, if wanted a new car, we couldn’t afford it so we just took it. So we weren’t even taken it to, some people would take it to get the hop cats and sell them or whatever. We would just take it to go to the parties. We weren’t the only ones getting into trouble. I mean we had our fights; we won some we lost some. So I mean that’s all we were about. We weren’t political, our parents were sure not political, they came from the farms from the field of Puerto Rico where there were farm workers. They didn’t have any education, we didn’t have any education, most of us dropped out at eighth grade or ninth grade of high school so we definitely didn’t have no education, our parents had no education. My father was on welfare and my mother worked in a transformer place where she got minimum wage almost and then my father had to say that he didn’t live with us so got welfare, first he got unemployment I guess then he got welfare but he did work for about 13 or 14 years for Oscar Meyer it was a meat factory, he worked in a meat packing factory but then they fired him, they moved the company and so he lost his job and he didn’t want to work again he started hanging out at the bar, became a pool shark and that’s how he made his money I guess but then he sold the numbers, that was another way of making money and the neighborhood was to, now its legal, the lottery is legal but at that time there was no lottery ROBERTSON: Okay JIMENEZ: But in Puerto Rico they did have a lottery that was legal and so they just thought it was okay to sell the numbers but it was not legal because there was no taxes being paid ROBERTSON: Right, right JIMENEZ: But today they didn’t distinguish it too much so I wouldn’t say that my father was a gangster, he did belong to a little club like the old hatchets, it was a name that they chose, but they would get into Page 6 �bar fights, bar brawls but it wasn’t really as gang if you compared to gang stuff its nothing like that. And I think he went to jail twice because I went with my mom to bond him out for fights and he was definitely afraid of jail, he didn’t want to go. Not like me I went a lot of times but he, so he was just more of a family person. In fact Jackie glease, the honeymooners was his favorite show ROBERTSON: Yeah, so you would say that one of the biggest draws for Chicago was your own people there JIMENEZ: The draw, you mean for myself? ROBERTSON: Right, well with you and your family even I mean you were saying that there were more job opportunities JIMENEZ: Right and our families were there we were closer to our family versus being in some farm, in a field farm in the fields and stuff like that but yeah so one of the draws with living in Lincoln park was that there was families growing up together and it became a tight knit neighborhood, just like any other neighborhood ROBERTSON: So would you say it helped maintain a sense of your culture? JIMENEZ: Right and maintain the culture, that’s what I’m saying because it maintained our culture and it made, that was my Puerto Rico, that’s what I knew of Puerto Rico. I loved Puerto Rico today but I never, I didn’t live in it that much what I’m saying. My sisters were all born here and they lived there for several years they loved it there. And I loved it there too but I can’t find any work but their husbands were raised there so they’re kind of used to their economy, their culture and I’m not. I was raised here so I’m used to here more. Even though I love Puerto Rico and defend it I had to me my Puerto Rico was Lincoln Park and that neighborhood and that community and then because we did the bad thing and we did the good things. Think of the new immigrants moving there, like pilgrims ROBERTSON: Mmhmmm JIMENEZ: Because they came in there and actually acted like pilgrims cause they came with a religious fervor from Puerto Rico and when they saw that a lot of the older people, the man would get into gangs and start selling drugs they used religion, they used Catholicism to preach when they saw that the youth could not afford to go a catholic school, my mother had her own catechism in her own house, she had an altar in the house but basically, she would have our living room was about 30 chairs, and the kids would come in there and she would, they would have to memorize the book because she wasn’t a good teacher, she never went to school and she only went to, I don’t think she even went to the 1st grade because she was raised in an orphanage but her mother got ill land so she was raised in an orphanage near san Juan until she was like 15 or 16 then she got connected with my father and they got married but she had catechism classes and they would graduate and she worked it out with the local priest and they would go and do it there. She would have catechism classed and they would have to recite word from word yes ma’am god raised on the third day no mam, yes mama. That’s the way they had to answer that was the way she trained them and she was excited when the priest would come and ask them questions because they would graduating at that time and the families were excited, they would Page 7 �go them like a little suit and fine dresses and that and they would go and receive their first communion and I saw that, I was going to catholic school at that time and it was like one of those where your mother is the minister and you don’t want to be connected to the class, you’re always on the sideline. But I appreciated what my mom was doing and I learned her organizing skills and how she had to talk to the parents and stuff like that. And she did that for, she had a few classes that graduated (Jose’s phone starts ringing) I should have turned this off, sorry ROBERTSON: It’s alright; do you need to take that? JIMENEZ: No, (Jose is trying to turn his phone off) and Tim is trying to help him JIMENEZ: Where were we? ROBERTSON: You were just describing your appreciation with what your mom was doing JIMENEZ: Well I need to also say, because I said we had a little altar, she my mother also, in Puerto Rico there is different customs, so even though 99% are catholic, there’s still old customs from the Indians and from the Africans, so you have their religions also a part of the thing. And my mother had, today she is what you call a charismatic Catholic so that means that they pray to the saints and she’s very into, well the Africans have the santaria, which is what we say is more like voodoo but it’s just a religion from Africa but it’s in the music you here songs like changu, and all that so my mother wasn’t into that, she was more into Indian, she said I’m an Indian. But even though she was catholic she doesn’t say it because she would get criticized even with the community. But I know that she believe, she says I believe in the tongues and the holy spirit, which is catholic but I know for her is was little bit more. But I don’t think she understand the whole religion part of it, she’s just like, you go to any Puerto Rican neighborhood and they have what they call botanicas, so you can go in there and buy candles and different things and that a regular store and they make good money because there’s a lot of people that buy that stuff. So m my mother was just kind of picking from that, she’s like one of those people that would pick a candle. Right, so she did believe and that so I wanted to say it, because it is part of our culture I mean it’s not just a religion, its apart of our culture, it’s a part of the fact that Puerto Ricans are Indian, African and European Spanish, so I have my light features because from the European Spanish. But even within our own family for 500 years we’re mix. So there’s also a saying in Puerto Rico that says y tu abuela donde esta? And your grandmother where is she? Meaning that all our grand mothers were from Africa. I mean that’s what they’re trying to day by this saying. Even though they weren’t all, what they mean is that we’re all mix; we cannot be prejudice against anybody, because we’re, we’re all, we’re all mixed people. So we’re mixed for 500 years, so talking about diversity… ROBERTSON: You were ahead of the game? JIMENEZ: We were ahead of the game a little bit, I think. But the problem also—it says that in the United States we don’t get our history. And, and so we’re, we’re not being taught that, although that’s common knowledge among Puerto Ricans that, that went to school in Puerto Rico. So, the Puerto Ricans that grew up here don’t [pause] don’t have that knowledge. We were, what the Young Lords were doing [pause] was to try to teach people about their history and, that’s one of the things that we, we promoted that we still promote. Page 8 �ROBERTSON: Say, I’m kind of curious moving onto that point… what was it like actually organizing and assembling the Young Lords? JIMENEZ: Well, that’s [pause] it wasn’t easy. I mean it’s still not easy today, I mean, ROBERTSON: Certainly. JIMENEZ: You kind of have to keep one step ahead of yourself, even today. [Pause] I mean, part of the reason I’m in Michigan has to, has to do with some of that, too. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But [pause] I got in, in, I went to jail, I got from the gang we went, we, there were different stages in the gang. We were first starting out; we’re just kind of just drinking and having a good time… ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then we started organizing ourselves and then we started trying to get a name for ourselves so we go to [pause] to other neighborhoods, to challenge them right in their own neighborhoods. to, to let ‘em know we can kick their butt in their own neighborhood. At that time it wasn’t like today where you just are shooting, but some of us had, some weapons, but just some of us. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Well we were going to another neighborhood. I remember going with Orlando one day and, and we went, and we used to have to walk around this one neighborhood because The Corps used to hang around there and The Corps was a [pause] was a grouping of a lot of Italian, Irish, Polish gangs, and they all… ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: They used to be the Saint Michael’s Drum and Bugle Corps but they [pause] they changed into a gang. They, they, they started The Corps themselves became a gang. so we used to have to, to go to… we had a branch in Old Town it was like ten blocks away from our other branch, so me and Orlando, Orlando was the founder of the gang—Orlando Davila—was the founder of the street gang. I was the founder of I was one of the original founders with him. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But I was the founder of the political group the Young Lords. So I transformed the gang into, into the Young Lords as a political movement. So anyway, we, we walk, one day we’re walking and we would always have to go around the churches. Orlando said, “what, I got my pistol from my father, we’re gonna walk—me and you are gonna walk right through there. And I’m going…[all laugh a bit] And I’m going to let you; you better protect me because I don’t have nothing. ROBERTSON: Right. Page 9 �JIMENEZ: I had like a little knife and that was it, but, we’re talking about like eighty people that we’re going right… ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: Going through eighty people on the playground, so we’re, we’re walking in there [pause] and, I mean, there was like a big pride in us because I knew he had that, that, that weapon. I knew that he had that, and, and at that time there weren’t that many people carrying guns like they do today. ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And today that wouldn’t work. [Chuckles] ROBERTSON: Yeah, I bet. JIMENEZ: But so usually they would have bats and sticks and stuff like that; throw rocks, whatever—or, cut you up or something like that. So anyway, we’re walking through the middle and I can see these, these, these guys are, you can hear them. “Whoa, look at these Puerto Ricans here, they think they’re bad. Look, they’re walking through our neighborhood,” that kind of stuff; ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And I’m just glowing, like I know they’re not gonna... No, but they’re kind of afraid; they don’t know what we got. They don’t know what we got, but finally they kind of surround us and that, and they go, “Whoa, you guys are bad,” and, I don’t know what Orlando told them. He just said something, but, all of a sudden, “We should kick your butt,” and that, something like that. Orlando said, “Well, come on!” and that… [Fumbling over words] when they took out the pistol he started shooting, like in the air, and it just emptied out—the whole playground emptied out. [Sounds of shock/amazement] JIMENEZ: But, I mean after that, [pause] after that we would walk through there; it was like, everything was okay. I mean, we, ‘cause we went to school with some of these people, so the next day I got to the school and then after that there was no more, like we couldn’t walk through there. Now, to, to some people they would say that that’s prejudice that we can’t walk through there, ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But we were looking at it more like from a gang point, point of view; but you can, today you can kind of look at it and say—well, what Puerto Ricans… ‘Cause we had the same problem at the beach; we couldn’t, Puerto Ricans couldn’t go to the beach, so it wasn’t just the youth, it was the adults. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We couldn’t go to North Avenue Beach in Chicago, and that was in our neighborhood, so we had to go to Fullerton Beach, and, so the beaches were segregated. Chicago was a, was a segregated town at that time. It’s still somewhat segregated—where you have different, Puerto Ricans in one area; Mexicans in another; Page 10 �ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Italians in another; Irish in another;, Polish in, in another; so, so there in Lincoln Park it was like that, but, and, and blacks. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So these three blocks would be Polish. These three blocks German; like that, and we couldn’t, like African Americans couldn’t move north of North Avenue. In Chicago, there’s a street called North Avenue; and you would hear that, I mean, I would hear that as a kid going to the barber shop I heard [pause] because I was light-skinned, they didn’t know I was Puerto Rican [laughs], ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So I’m sitting there getting my hair cut, I’m just a little kid, and I’m hearing these adults talking about, “Mayor Daley, he’s not gonna let no blacks move past North Avenue. We don’t have to worry about that,” So, this was during the time of Urban Renewal, but I didn’t know that. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So there, so, so Urban Renewal to us was it was like a master plan for that city for—a fifty year master plan to clean up the lakefront and the downtown area. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And we were just caught up in the middle of that—the Lincoln Park neighborhood and Wicker Park later. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Because now Wicker Park no longer exists as we knew it then. That was also a Puerto Rican community, and it was wiped off the map. and I’m saying, you’re talking about thirty or forty thousand people to sixty thousand people in a neighborhood. ROBERTSON: They just had to up and relocate. JIMENEZ: Right, I mean they were like sixty thousand people, but let’s say a good thirty percent of that were, were Puerto Rican. That’s a good percentage, and we were all centered in the central part of the area. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: The rest were, were the lakefront that was always the same way. They called it the Gold Coast, so there was no urban renewal there. but in our neighborhood it was completely wiped out and just robbed; it was a land grab. I mean, they took they tra… they bought—they did it— legally, it was legal, a legal land grab. so, [fumbles over words] everything was done legally, if you, if you think that out of, out of a city council with fifty elder men and forty-nine of them are democrats, so if that’s legal to you [all laugh] Page 11 �JIMENEZ: Forty-nine out of fifty are voting one way, with Mayor Daley. So, if that’s le… if that’s called laws, making laws, I don’t know where to… [Laughing] I don’t know where it’s democracy; it’s definitely not the Americas. And they call themselves democrats; that’s the other thing, see. Here, it’s, it was strange for me to come to Michigan because everybody’s Republican, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And I’m going like, “I can’t tell the difference.” It’s, [all laugh], we’re still in the same boat. But, [pause] but anyway, I got off track again, I, I don’t know maybe we’ve got another question. ROBERTSON: Let’s see… yeah just I mean that process of organizing… JIMENEZ: Oh, organizing; okay, yeah. Okay, so we were in the gang—we’re gang banging, we’re doing all this stuff—I come out of jail, I’m in jail and I start reading, I got put in the hole, ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And they said, we go to jail and, and all the Puerto Ricans hang out together, that’s just common. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so there was some, some gangs there and they said “Those guys are a gang and they, and they want to attack us,” so they’re telling the guards; and then they’re talking about escaping because this one guy, we were joking and he’s, he’s putting his head through the window. So they say, “If you can put your head through the window, you’re gonna put your whole body,” So he’s, but he’s just joking; we’re not talking about escaping. He’s just, playing games. We’re just passing the time away; ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And so anyway that night they, they took us all downstairs, strip-searched us, and, took us to the hole; and that was a, a, a city jail so, so it was a, the house of correction? ROBERTSON: Mmh. JIMENEZ: So the most you do there is a year, and but, and I was doing sixty days and everybody else was doing like ten days, or something like that. So I had the most time; I had just come in, and now I’m like, they’re saying that I’m trying to escape so they’re putting me in maximum security, which is the hole, which means I don’t get out of my cell but once a week for a shower, and that’s it, and that’s with a guard. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So, you’ve got a lot of time to read; there’s not, no, nobody else there but you. I mean, it’s an old Civil War, Civil War cell house, so the catwalk, instead of being steel, it was wooden; and they had, they had big cats to get the rats, ‘cause there were rats, and there were roaches. ROBERTSON: Wow. Page 12 �JIMENEZ: I mean can you imagine going to jail [all laugh] and you gotta deal with roaches in jail. [Laughs] Oh, man; but, and then it was real cramped up cells and stuff like that. So I mean, you had nothing else, you’re spent most of the day in your underwear and, and, and you listen to the radio which is on a loud, those loud speakers like on M.A.S.H. that t.v. program. They had like loud speakers that you would hear the radio all day; and [pause] so you had a lot of time to, to, to, to think there. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so, I’m coming with my family—my mother being religious and that, and, and she had tried to convince me to become a priest anyways, at one time, before I got into the gang thing. I started trying to reflect and, and I wanted to go to confession—, as a Catholic you want to go to confession— and confess my sins and, and then I was using. I went from the gang to the drugs. That’s what, what you lead to; it goes from the gang to the, to the hard drugs. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so I said, “I don’t want,” “I don’t want the hard drugs,” I want to get away from that. a little beer and that, that’s fine. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: [Pause] But I don’t, I didn’t want to be involved with the, with the drugs, with the hard drugs. So, I went to confession and then they, I wanted to go to confession and the guard says, “Well, what you’re trying to do is just get out of your cell;” so, “we can’t let… you can’t go to confession.” I said, “What do you…” so I start trying to get legal on him, “You’re trying to,” you’re trying to well, I mean not legal, I just tried to tell him, “All I want to do is go to confession. Can I have the priest come here?” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: He said, “I don’t know if we can do that.” So I said, “Well, I’m asking,” . So he told me, “Put a note, and we’ll do that;” so that’s what I did, and then all of a sudden the priest came and, —, I it took a little bit because I had, you’re in a p-prison-like environment, [pause] and, you’re gonna go to confession, that’s like drinking [laughing] cookies and milk, what I’m saying? ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: It’s like, “Are you trying to be a Cub Scout in here? You can’t be a Cub Scout. You gotta… you’re not going along with the program.” But anyway I didn’t care; what I’m saying? I was, I was, … it was… when I believe in something that’s the way I, I was ? I, I didn’t care. That’s what I learned from my, from my mother and from her religion and stuff like that and so I said, “I don’t care. We’ll go to confession right here,” and, you feel like an-anybody when they go to confession. You feel pretty good afterwards and, and so I start… so now I’m hearing all this stuff about the Black Panthers, and I’m going to confession and then I hear the Black Panthers are on the radio and they’re taking over a courthouse in Alameda, California and they’re going with guns and everything to take over, and I’m going like, “Wow,” “this is great! This is what we need to do.” [all laugh] So I’m gonna change my life. I’m gonna stop gang banging and I want to become a revolutionary; what I’m saying? I don’t want to, … so then, Page 13 �then at the same time they’re bringing Martin Luther King… is, is, is killed, and so they’re bringing in the people that are riding, they’re bringing them into our cell house. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: So we’re looking at them from the top of, our cells. We’re looking down as they’re being [pause] shaken down, to see if they’ve got that… anything in there. Then they’re being asked questions diagnostic… questions, when they come in. So they’re bringing in riders and all of a sudden they’re also they’re doing raids on, on Mexican undocumented workers. So they’re bringing them in, and now there’s black guards--there’s not that many Spanish guards—but there’s black and white guards mainly. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But I’m looking at the black guards and they’re pushing the, the Latinos, and even though they’re Mexican or Puerto Rican—but they’re still Latinos, just like me; and so I’m going like, “Why don’t you leave those people alone? You don’t, you don’t,” I’m yelling; we’re yelling—the few Latinos that are up in the jail. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We’re yelling out, “Why don’t you leave them people alone? They’re not messing with you. They don’t understand what you’re talking about.” So, they would start asking a couple of qu- they would ask, the couple of black guys that were pretty good they would ask us a couple questions so we could help them translate. So then, I asked them, I said, “ what, I’ll translate,” “there’s not a problem. I’ll…” “Oh, you want to get out of your cell again.” I said, “No, no, no, no; I’ll do it from here.” [laughter] So I started yelling the questions and answers, back and forth and, that kind of helped me, also. I was like, I’m, I’m, I’m kind of serving my people or something like that, or in a way. so, so the riders and the Mexican, undocumented workers that were coming through there… and then I’m reading about Martin Luther King. The first book I read, though, was Thomas Merton, and I found out later he, he, he was a Trappist Monk, and I felt like a Trappist Monk [all laugh] in the cell, so he was, like, going through the same kind of stuff. So then, [pause] so I read that first, so that’s why I went to confession. I mean, that made me go to confession, the fact that he was religious and all that. But then I started reading Martin Luther King, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then I read Malcom X also. so that was two different philosophies: one was for peace, and one was for by any means necessary. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: [interviewee coughs] Excuse me, and then I’m, I’m hearing about the, the Panthers on, on the radio at the same time, and then... Anyway, I get out, I said, “What I need to do, what we need to do is to, to do the same thing for Puerto Ricans, ; ‘Cause we don’t have nothing like the Panthers. This is what we need to do.” Page 14 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So I came out with that idea, I’m gonna come out and I’m gonna try to ‘cause I was still the leader of the Young Lords at that time. So, I’m gonna try to do something with the Young Lords and do that, because I knew every time you go to jail they, the, the gang kind of breaks up a little bit and… ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: They don’t break up but they don’t, they don’t meet. There’s no meetings in there, … ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: That wasn’t to meet; and so, I came out but I had to deal with other stuff. I had to deal with— [laughing] I didn’t have a job, ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: What I’m saying, and so I, I got into this, program at the Argonne National Laboratory where half of the day I would be a janitor and the other half I would study for my GED. ROBERTSON: Nice. JIMENEZ: So, [pause] that was a riot, too. [laughing] But I mean, that, that, … we used to hide out and everything like that [all laughing] from our work, but we did, but we did… Anyway, they took us on a [pause] on a field trip to the Democratic convention and we saw the hippies getting beaten up; and before that, like I said, we used to cut the hippies’ hair. I mean, we just, just… they were there in Old Town, so they were there with us. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: It… Many of them were our friends, but we would do it just, just as, as a prank. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And like I said, we fought with the sailors and that so it wasn’t no big thing, but [pause] but anyway, we went to the Democratic convention and now they’re… we’re all former gang members or, or, or we’re still gang member’s but we’re studying for GED. So in there we’re getting along, everybody gets along because we’re all for the same thing. We’re trying to, get our GED. So we go to the Democratic convention and the police are running to get the hippies and they’re beating them up, but they’re beating up reporters, and we’re saying to ourselves, “If they come to us,” everybody’s saying, “Is everybody going to stand for themselves?” and everybody said, “Yeah, we’re ready.” so I mean you could tell that we were, we, we were going to fight. Our thing was not peace. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We were [laughing] we were gang bangers and we don’t know anything about what’s going on, we just came on, on a trip, a high school trip here. Page 15 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: They’re not going to beat us up, so… So anyway, when they came, we just kept walking straight. I remember about five or six of us, and the, and the professor—the teacher—and the police ran around us. They did… they, they could, I mean the way we were dressed, they could tell that we were not part of that, that crowd. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So it wasn’t that we put fear in them, [laughter] it’s just that these guys are not any part of this. They kind of let us go, but that kind of stuck [pause] seeing people getting beat up, that kind of stuck in my, in my head ‘cause we would get beat up by the police, too. that kind of stuff, and all this kind of stuff that I was reading. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So, anyway I had, I… On a different day, I met this lady, Pat Devine, and she was with some— two other people from the Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park, and I’m talking to Benny, who was a Young Lord, and he was in his uniform and he’s proud that he just… he’s on leave from Vietnam, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And this lady comes in, and I’m looking at the neighborhood since I got out—I was only gone sixty days ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And I could see the changes ROBERTSON: Wow. JIMENEZ: and this lady, I mean, they would… I mean, one-way streets, two-way streets, or one-way streets, you could see people getting thrown out by the sheriff and, and I’m talking to Benny, my friend, my best friend. He’s a Young Lord and he’s in a uniform and he’s proud. He’s a, a Vietnam veteran and all this stuff, —the Vietnam War because we were the ones who were put in the front lines. our, our people, … and this nice lady is telling him, “You’re killing the, the, the [pause] Vietnamese people,” and all this other stuff. I’m going like… so I go to his defense. To Benny’s defense and I used… I don’t mean any disrespect—I go, “Look, you [laughs] white bitch,” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: “who the heck do you think you are? You’re kicking us out of our neighborhood, and this man is fighting for our, for our people; and you’re kicking us out of our neighborhood against…”, “You’re a Communist,” and she goes, “I’m proud to be a Communist.” I go, “Oh no! [laughter] This lady’s crazy. This lady’s way out there; this lady’s crazy.” So, … so, anyway she, she hit me hard; harder than another guy would hit me—I mean she knocked me down with the way she, the way she could express herself and stuff like that; Page 16 �ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And, so it made me stop to think, and then, then I was a-already thinking about urban renewal and she says, “, we’re f… we’re… our organization is trying to fight to help people stay here,” . So, I mean, it started making sense to me. You get what I’m saying? So anyway, that night the, the other guys that were trying to rap to her and to her other friend and, and trying to, they were just trying to just rap to her but I was interested more in what she was saying; ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And, anyway, she invited me and Benny and, and everybody else to go to her house. just to relax and stuff like that—have a, have a few beers, stuff like that. So we did that, and we… I remember we were just talking all night, I mean we were sitting there talking and, and, and I’m asking her questions about it and stuff like that; and so she invited me and … me to, to, to come to a meeting. She said, “Well, can you bring any people to come to the urban renewal meeting,” ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And I’m going, “I can bring a thousand people. I’m the leader,” [laughter] that kind of stuff. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So she said, “Well it’s going to be in about three weeks,” “just, whatever you can come… whatever, as many people as you can get just bring them,” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: “Because it’s an important meeting about the neighborhood.” it was the Department of Urban Renewal was coming in. So that’s… this is a long story, but it’s… that’s when I started organizing and then I found out that, that to get people to come to a gang fight was a lot easier than to get ‘em to come to a meeting. [all laugh] what I’m saying? I mean, I, I went, I, I… people are supposed to organize like in the houses and stuff like that—well I didn’t know—I organized on street corners and in the bars. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: That’s all I knew. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: The street corners and the bar. So I, I remember going to the bar of, of another gang ‘cause I’m trying to reach out to everybody, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: All the different gangs, and I remember going into the bar and they go, “Oh, here comes that nut again, Cha Cha,” [all laugh] and, and, and even the bartender didn’t want me in there. ROBERTSON: Wow. Page 17 �JIMENEZ: And I’m talking and I said, “man, they’re kicking us out of our neighborhood,” and, real basic stuff. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: I… “You see these one-way signs,” and all this, real basic stuff. “Oh, you’re a Communist,” and I go, “I’m a Communist? Come on out and tell me that.” [laughter] So I would go out and get beat up [laughs] and then they would buy me a drink and, it went like that. like I said, I got beat up a lot of times and put down and, and and, basically they didn’t want you there. The bartender didn’t want you there, you’re messing with his customers. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: The guys didn’t want to hear, they don’t want to talk about that. they… politics, they don’t want to… and they thought I was crazy and stuff like that. So it was like a, … but I learned that from my mom. I mean, I learned that you had to be, you had to be committed. You had to stay, stay with it; that it takes time to, to organize something. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: I mean, it wasn’t easy. Those kids come into the house, for catechism, wasn’t just they did a lot of stuff; they did the catechism, and then they did, rosaries like because what their goal was to get Spanish mass… ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: In the churches. There was no Spanish mass. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And, their goal was also to get them… they would have, they finally got some Spanish masses, but then they put—they did the mass in the hall instead of the regular church because it was offensive to the, to the regular parishioners; and there was, there was not enough Puerto Ricans to, to, to… They felt that there was not enough Puerto Ricans, but actually the hall was getting more filled up than the church. [laughing] what I’m saying? ROBERTSON: Right, right. JIMENEZ: but they did a lot of good stuff; and then they worked with the gangs. I mean, the, I mean they, the… It became a community, because when there was a big gang epidemic, when we started fighting and stuff like that, they started organizing dances—weekly, weekly dances. So they were smart; they made money [pause] and they work, they work with their kids. They were, they could see their kids, so I mean… and they could promote, proselytizing, that’s what you call it. they could promote their, their church, also. out of that community, Lincoln Park came the first Puerto Rican parade of Chicago; out of this, this group called, the Knights of St. John, which was equivalent to the Knights of Columbus; ROBERTSON: Okay. Page 18 �JIMENEZ: And the Damas de María, Hijas de María, “Daughters of Mary”, in Spanish… [pause] But out of that they’re organized; my parents became that, and then we did our own organizing as youths, the Young Lords; because we didn’t just… When we, when, when we started to grow as Young Lords we didn’t just organize the Young Lords, we organized all the other youth in the area, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: All the other youth groups and stuff like that. But yet, the, the organizing part was, … I took you on a whole trip [laughing] to tell you that I was getting beat up every day... [all laugh] that it wasn’t that easy, that, the organizing; and, and, and then we got beat up by the cops later, so that’s, so that’s a different story. I mean, after we get organized we’re thinking that we’re doing good, good things, right. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: ‘Cause we’re, we’re not fighting. We’re refusing to fight any, anybody. we’re not, we’re trying to stay away from drugs; we don’t, we don’t want… we’re opposed to drugs. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We are for discipline; we want people to give more discipline. we want people to go to school; I mean, we thought we were doing everything the right way, but we begin to get attacked, by the police. for doing the… now they hate us more than when we were in, in a gang. They literally hate us more; I mean, they’re… anybody that’s wearing our button, they’re putting them against the wall and shaking them down, and these are community people who are wearing our buttons. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: They had a car parked twenty-four hours a day in front of our, our, our church; we did take over the church, but it became our headquarters and we had a daycare center there. We had a free breakfast for children program; we had a free health clinic; and we had cultural educational classes that were taught in the church. So, before it was empty. So we did take it over, and then, but right away the next day after we took it over… because the pastor had been working with us, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: It was the congregation that was opposed to us. We told them it’s not really a take-over, we just want to work together with, with the church for the community; and that pastor was later killed about six months later because it’s a cold case. It hasn’t been, [pause] proven who killed him or why. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But we know that, during that time he was killed, another pastor was killed, and Fred Hampton from the Panthers were killed. So we knew that it was some kind of pattern going on there at the time but we, but we can’t prove it. I mean we, we know that; and, and out of respect for the family we, we didn’t promote it at that time. we didn’t talk about it that, that, that much. just out of respect for them, but by not talking about them people thought that we had something to do with it; because they used knives and all Puerto Ricans are supposed to carry knives. I mean they, but, it was a, … Page 19 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: People that, that, that read about it they could tell that it was something related to passion [fumbling over words] because of the way he was stabbed; he was stabbed seventeen times and his wife nine times. so it was, that was passion that tells you… it had to do with passion. ROBERTSON: Certainly. JIMENEZ: Now, when we took over the church we put Che Guevara as a mural; we put out Lisa Compos, which is another, Puerto Rican—nationalist from Puerto Rico; we put Lolita Lebrón, another Puerto Rican nationalist woman; we put Adelita, a woman from Mexico; and we put Emiliano Zapata on the wall. We put, like I said Che Guevara was on, was on the wall; so that could make somebody in the congregation… because the congregation was mostly Cuban exiles, so that could make Cuban exiles angry. We didn’t think about it because, we were thinking, “We’re Puerto Ricans,” and the community was mainly Puerto Rican; ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But, I could see why that would make them very angry that they’re first to put a mural of Che Guevara on their church wall. I mean, today I wouldn’t do that, I mean, … ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But we, we didn’t … We didn’t mean any harm by that, but I mean, … but I’m saying that could be one of the reasons. Now another, another thing was that we protested against the local mafia because he had put a sub-machine gun on a Puerto Rican business owner, because he, the business owner owned a restaurant and couldn’t afford the rent at that time. So the, the, the real estate office, who was, who was also the local mafia guy—and the reason I know he was the local mafia guy was my father. He used to sell the, bring the money for the numbers to him. So I knew, [laughing] so I knew that personally. Yeah, he was the local mafia; but any… but we still picketed in front of his place and, and I went with some, with some people that had a local tabloid newspaper, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And, and they took pictures while this guy put his sub-machine gun on me. All I did was put my finger in my pocket, I didn’t [ROBERTSON: Wow.] have a weapon. So I put my finger in my pocket because I didn’t know what else to do when he put the sub-machine gun… and he ran into the back office that had a window and started calling the police. The police comes in, he comes out with his submachine gun and the police is there, and they’re frisking me [ROBERTSON: What?!] while this guy’s holding a sub-machine gun, but we’re taking pictures. So we took pictures and we, and we put those on the newspaper tabloid—about twenty pictures all around the front page; ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then we, we, we split about twenty thousand copies of them, we spread through the neighborhood; Page 20 �ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And so, after that we didn’t, we didn’t break his windows, [laughs] but the adults were breaking them. Every Friday night they would break his window. He started with a big picture window and then… little, little, little blocks of windows; but, so it could have been, it could have been them too. I mean, it could have been the local mafia that we had to deal with, because the local mafia was the one pushing real estate with the city. It could have Lee Alderman, because Lee Alderman had an organization called United People to Inform Good-Doers and they were going through our garbage cans and stuff like that trying to find any information that they could to use against us. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And that they could publicize to the… they thought we were getting funding from the Methodist churches in the suburbs, so they, they publicized a few things in the suburbs, Lee Alderman did. Now, we also broke into Lee Alderman’s press conference and, and exposed them because he had gotten caught with a prostitute in the neighborhood, so we exposed him right in front of the media. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So he wasn’t too happy with that, either; [laughter] so we were making enemies, I mean is what I’m saying, and, and they, they were, our target was, was the pastor who was allowing us to… Oh, and they were also trying to, … there’s letters at DePaul University where they, they were sending letters to the bishop, trying to get the bishop to kick us out of the church; ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And he was saying no, that he was not, going to kick us out and the bishop was with us. he’s saying, “No, no,” “that’s his ministry and, and, and we’re gonna let him work with the youth. He’s working with the youth, so that’s his ministry.” So, so Lee Alderman and the committee, the uptight United People to Inform Good-Doers was definitely… had a campaign to try and get us out of there; and they were connected with the local mafia and the police and everybody else, so, so I don’t know… but then we also had the fact that we were part of a a rainbow coalition with the Black Panther Party and the Young Patriots, which was, an Appalachian white group that, that was, that we were working together with, and, so they… the Black Panther Party was being investigated by COINTELPRO, the Counter-Intelligence Program. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So anybody that was connected to them—and we definitely were—I mean, I was going to speaking engagements with, Fred Hampton many, many times and many days. We spent a whole day with him because he was helping train, train us also. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: We were learning from… so the- we had a lot of enemies at that time. We were in cir- what you call in circles, they were circling… we were the wagon and they were circling us. and we didn’t… and Page 21 �all we were trying to do was just, like to save our community; I mean, that’s all we were trying to do. We were probably saying too many things we didn’t need to say, but, other things, but I mean that was the main reason that, that we started was to save, to save the neighborhood;, save our ‘hood, save our neighborhood… but, [pause] but anyway, that’s how… That was a long one, right? [all laugh] JIMENEZ: I mean we did not understand how at that time I was well liked by a lot of people at that time and I know I should be liked more because I went through a program substance abuse programs and everything to change my negativity right. ROBERTSON: Mhmm JIMENEZ: I should be liked more, but I am hatted more ROBERTSON: Hmm? JIMENEZ: So that was we are saying was a concerted effort. To discredit me and what we were doing to people and that was one of the reasons that I ran for alderman and in nineteen seventy five it was more so that we could stay alive. As a movement and so that I ran in the neighborhood north of Lincoln Park which was lake view uptown because there were no more Puerto Ricans left in Lincoln park and in uptown they were starting to kick the Puerto Ricans out of there as well as like I said we kept moving north and west. So the aldermanic campaign I remember because we had to go underground and I went underground because I got arrested eighteen times in a six week period and for all felonies and so they were it was clear that they were trying to destroy the group in that way so I got a year and asked for a little time to straighten things out with my family and I took off and just went underground that meant that like today I could say that I am underground but because I am not in Chicago I am not in public or anything. But so we did that for like two and a half years which was I would have liked to looking back at it today I would have rather done two and a half years in jail then to be underground for two and a half years because at least in jail you have communication but I could not even communicate with my own family for two and a half years so that that’s why it was more difficult in that way but next time I would just take the jail time but anyway the while I was underground we organized a couple of movements a few more chapters of the young lords like in Los Angeles and San Diego and Hayward and Boston we worked with a group there so we were keeping a little busy while we were underground then what I decided was we needed like a training school for the leadership because I found out that Chicago was kinda falling apart a little bit m and they were starting to put drugs back in to the neighborhood so when I heard a lot of that stuff I said let’s get a group of people and we will rent a farm in Tomah Wisconsin I considered that because no one is there but we rented a farm in Tomah Wisconsin and about twenty three of use lived together like a commune but not really we had structure we would wake up in the morning and every one would have chores it was like a program and then people had to read. Like my mother I was not a teacher so I would tell them to read the book and discuss it I want I didn’t really have a plan you just have to read this book so we read it so read books like Frantz Fanon and books like that and some Lennon books but m we were mainly concerned with what they call the national question so that was the whole question of Puerto Rico, self-determination and how to organize that and in other words it was a two-step process because people were saying that we have to talk about the class struggle the poor vs. the rich and we were saying that we also have to talk about Puerto Rico we have a Page 22 �nation called Puerto Rico so it is ok to be a little nationalistic as long as you are also internationalist as long as it is not racist because we were against nationalism because that was racist but we said its ok to talk about that and be proud of that as long as you are still an internationalist and you respect everyone else and so that was to us the national question so said that before you can talk about class struggle m it is all collectivism or whatever but it’s all the same thing it’s all mixed up anyway but before we could even get to that point, but at that point everyone was talking about the class struggle or organize the workers and stuff like that and I’m going we can’t even get in to the job you want us to organize the job but we can’t even get in the plant so we are going to organize with in the community so that was what we decided that we needed not in the factory but in the community but I am not saying not to organize as an effect but our goal as an organization is to organize the values(27:55) to organize the communities and to look at it geographically to go door to door and that what we learned latter on with the aldermanice campaine and the mayoral campaine of mayor Washington was to go door to door that that was the best form of organizing we had programs but if you go door to door you don’t miss anybody and so our goal then became clear what our job had to be it was to go to each latino balto and try to organize door to door and stuff like that but we were never able to because of funding and other stuff we were never able to accomplish that goal completely, but it did spread and it did spread to other cities like that like creating base areas we called it but that was the kind of stuff that we started at the training school and that we did that for about two years and then from there we started doing target practice because we though that the revelution was going to be the next day and this guy blew his thumb off (Ha-ha) so we had to close down the place we had to get out of there because I was wanted by the law and so every one could have gone to jail but I had to so we moved from there to millwalky and we put out a newspaper and then whent back to Chicago and got appartments and people lived togeather and today when I am doing these interviews today there are still living togeather in the same apartment you go to one apartment house and everone in the building is an organizer that works togeather but they are not all young lords they are in different group but they learned from us because that is what we did so we went back to Chicago and we I actualy was livng a couple of blocks from the police station were I turned myself in laterbut we planed the turning of myself back in, turning my self in. but it is like they are not going to do this for us we have to do it aurselfs so passed out flyers all over the neighborhood and we sent them to peole in the media to make sure that they would be there and stuff like that and then we had about five hundered people when it was like four below zero(25:36) and there was like five hundered people marching when I turned myself in and basecly I wwnt downtown and took a cab and drove up to the police station and the marchers are on this side and I am paying the cab driver and I start to walk in to the crowd and I start shaking hands with every body and the loyers were there and the police grabed me right away but I was able to shack hands with a few people and then because of the layers they let me talk through a loud speaker to the crowed and stuff like that and so that was good I mean it was a good event but the fact that we had five hundered people show up at four below zero was pretty amazing that was pretty good and then right away they took me and I started my year in jail and wial I was doing the year in jail we were planning the alderman campaign and so when I can outit was easy because people know that I had just came out of jail and I am running for alderman(24:35) so I mean that brought news but we did a good campaine we had 39 percent of the vote for the first time and all you need is 51 percent to win and usualy the first time people get like one percent but I mean we did pretty good. And the second time it was not me running but the major and Page 23 �we helped him win the election so it was a different feeling from picket signes to, I think two hours are up, right (Ha-ha) from picket signes we went to a victory we won a majors we won a majors race and it was a different fealing because I could wallk in to city hall and see the major when I want just callhim up and say that I am on my way I did not have anything important to talk to him about it was just to say hello (Ha-ha) but it was a great fealing. I remember that night when we won because see our office was the fullerton office and it was mixed it was divers and latino were atomaticly going to go vote for herald not attomaticly I mean that we had to do our work but we were winning eighty to ninty present for herald Washington major the first African American major and in the purto rican area and in the anglo community in the white community they did not do that well but still with out them getting any vote we would have not have won and so I remember how hapy they were too I mean it was like hay we won like yea we did it. So it was a good fealing I am telling you I i remember my cousin I had submitted his name for the some liberary board and and I walk in to city hall and there was a couple of other people there with me and I see him and I great him an I go hay how are you doing Carmelo and he goes hay cha cha how are you and I says if you cant he says that if you came to see that major he is out of town you will not be able to see him and I’m going like I’m thinking that he is out of town I just talked to him but I did not tell him that so I said ok he said that I have been here a couple of hours and I am going to see the cheaf of staff because they are going to put me on the library board and I am going I know because I put your name (Ha-ha)ha but anyway so I’m going in there and this guy herald safical the security guard he is a cop major safle but he is a progressive cop he was with the he was for the panthers and things like that. And he goes hay cha cha so I say ok and I go in to the back and sure enough halrald Washington in in the back (Ha-ha)ha he was not out of town we was in the backbut I had gone to see him because I had went with some bills to his office and I sayed who is paying for this because I don’t have no money (Haha)so that was pretty pretty amazing times at that time and then he won again the second time but I did not work on that I was in Michigan during the second time but that was a victory for us because what happened is because we were the first group, latino group in the city to indorce him we did not ask for money you see our thing was more poklitical and we did not ask we were conserned about the community we were we vote we worked on his campaine because he rep… in fact it was called neighberhoods vs. downtown so that is why it fit in with what we were in to (20:37) so we were for his campaine and we know he had that he was very progressive person and we wanted anyone to defeat the daily machine so he was against that so so when he won he he organized he we did we and the office of special events for Chicago organized an event in the purto rican neighborhood of humble park and there were a hundered thousand Puerto Ricans in that park I mean wall to wall Puerto Ricans in that park and I was the only one on stage introducing the major at that time and he and he we were able to be able to choose that band that played it was willy colone and when he came to town people would pay like 40 50 dollars to see him and so they were seing him for free so that loded it up plus we did media on the radio and stuff like that that was payed from the budget of the office of special events so we were kind of directing it but they were kinds supling the money and the expertise to quordinate it because he had invited all of the community leaders to sit in a band shell or what ever but I was the only one on stagewith introducing the major but that is that whole speech in in the wikipidia article it’s a hole little two minite speech that I gave. Introducing him cus there that to use represented the victory we had went from a gang or what ever from an…to to becoming the young lords picketing protesting to taking over occupy they use the word occupy to day but we were calling it takeovers then and and our Page 24 �takovers we won we did not leave till our demands were met and and we were so unpredictabale that they wanted to give us the demands so what ever you want you can have (Ha-ha) because they did not know were we were going to come from so there was a few of us running around with guns (Ha-ha) and we are not leaving so I mean but and the families but we would have got killed but the families that were in side wial we took over micormic seminary for example we were there for a whole week the demands were $605,000 for them to invest in to low income housing, $25,000 for the health clinic for two health clinics so that was $50,000 and then another $25,000 to open up a peoples law center. (17:57) because the loyers were helping us negosheate we were there for a whole week we took it over the young lords and the next day and we did not even plan for food for provitions so today they would havewiped us out that is what they do today they some body took over some other place the other day in Chicago and they would not allow any food in. but you see what happened with us the community came and brought food the net day and then we let them come in so the next day we had three hundred and fifty people and and what happened is that when the police were wanting to attack us they decided to bring in the kids not us we did not want the kids to come in side but they said no no we are going to bring the kids so that that way they wont attack they wont come in and then the students were in the front of the building the students were our security in front so it was a seminary it was a complex like this it was a big complex we are talking about depaul university and it is today at that time it was called micormic theological seminary so it was a big complex like this and we took over the administration building a three level three story administration building and we were there we lived in there for a week in fact we won all of the demands and I told everybody that ok we can leave now and they went I am not leaving I have an office and no we got to leave (Ha-ha) we got to leave we did not leave but we had fun doing that they had music they had a lot of descution groups nothing but talk everyone was just talking all day and so every one came close by talking and became close and then we won all of the demands and we thretone to burn down the liberary because they were thretining to come in so we said we are going to go take over the liberary and then we are going to burn it down if we have to burn it down we don’t care that night is when they called us for the meeting “cough excuse me” that night is when they called us for the meeting but about two oclock in the morning and they said what what ever demands you wantwe will sign we will agree to your demands they had a little we had just read your demands and if thoughs are your demands then we will give you all of the demands you ask and I sayed ok so than the next day we were but I remember having press conferenses every day on top (Ha-ha) of the thing they had a little window sill that we would have press conferences out of there is a picture of that some were there is a picture but I have it some were but anyway so that is I don’t remember were we were at there a tangent I guess. ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) Yea its like your saying coming from that level of street corner talk to political standing. JIMENEZ: How much time do we have left. ROBERTSON: Well we have as much time as we need. JIMENEZ: Ok Page 25 �ROBERTSON: As far as the questions. I was curious, I mean like you were saying, born in Puerto Rico, never really knowing it to much coming hear like you said when you were two years old and just moving around as much as you have like what are essential elements for you to consider some place home? JIMENEZ: Well my home is been Chicago that has been my home but my home is also but it does not exist any more I mean linken Park does not exist anymore I really don’t know when I was fifteen years old I went and stayed for about a year in Puerto Rico and and that was I was put on the plan in handcuffs and sent to Puerto Rico they were trying to deport me because I was the leader of the young lords and I had got some kind of case were we broke in to a house or something at the time and and I was not even good at that but that was something from the gang days and anyway I was still a juvenile and we will either put you hear and I was fourteen or something we will put you in a sharaten and shareten was a juvenile prison until your twenty one like juveniles htat have commited murders or something would go there or dangerous criminals they thought that I was a dangerous criminal or I don’t know I was never the fighter Orlando was the fighter in the group I was more always the organizer but Orlando never wanted to lead so I was the leader of the group. (12:48) but anyway so my mother said that I don’t want my son to go to jail till he was twenty one years old I will send him to Puerto Rico but I was balling I was crying I did not want to go but they took us in a pady wagon from the jail to the airport and at the airport they watched us from up above ant they let me talk to my parents and they walked me to the door and I I was that was when I started crying cuz I could not control myself cuz I did not know were I was going I’m like cheradin I knew were I was going and I will find friends who are there in jail I mean it is a life of jail so people but in Puerto Rico I didn’t know anybody or I thought I didn’t know anybody once I got there my uncle who met me he had come back and forth to Chicago several times so I did know him and other uncles and ants that had come back and fourth because we are like a shudle culture so we travel back and fourth all the time but I did not know that at first so but I went there at first and right away they said gangster from Chicago alcapone (Ha-ha) right away that was what everyone was thinking so but I remember hanging out with the priest because he was the only guy that I could talk to in English and I remember smiling because my grandmother would ask me stuff and I would just smile because I did not know the heck what she was saying and my grandfather woud get mad he would say he knows he knows he is just pretending that kind of thing but he was the backwards guy my father was bad he was wors but he was the one who tought me about the country and stuff like that I would hang out with him and go up to him on the mountain because the farm was a mountain the farm was not flat land it was on a mountain all of Puerto Rico is like that it is all hilly so the farms are all hlly and stuff like that so you have to climb and it is good because you climb to the top and there is fresh airy cool fresh air (10:37) when you go to the bottom it is all hot and but I got to know slowly I even went with one pare of shoes and had to save them for like Sunday so I walked around like what do you call it huckel berry fin is that with out shoes I mean I walked around that is what we did at that time we could not people could not afford shoes and that so they would save there shoes for like Sunday and that but I hung around witht the prist and I remembered I did not get in to any real big truble all though I did steal his hourse (Ha-ha) and his jeep one time because I fell in love with this girl in another bouyo another part of Puerto Rico and I was hanging out with and I was not trying to steel it I was just trying to barrow it (Ha-ha) butthat is what guys do when they are young and in love. So I I took his hourse one day and the jeep and then every one in the hole the thing is that every one goes to church on suday so if you do Page 26 �not go to church on Sunday you have to hide you don’t let anyone know that you are not at church cuz its like a country and its just one church and every body for miles away you can see form all the hils so we would go I remember cause he made me go to confection in front of everybody and that kind of stuff and that but he became like a friend of mine he got me a job in a in a hard wear store a ferreta they call it and I remember I met a guy from New York that was helping me because I would just sit there and stand in the front counter and people would come there and ask me something like a nail or something and I would not know but hten they ask me for something like a fouset and I right away I would have to go to my friend from new york whats this mean calesa what is he saying but I learned Spanish I had to learn Spanish that way and I even learned the song and stuff like that and in Christmas time that’s a big holiday in Puerto Rico the the three kings but it because of the American culture it starts like on crismas eve and then it last till January six which is the day of the three kings and everyone goes house to house and there like trubidors so they like sing and they improvise and so all my uncles and stuff like that they know how to improvise and before they had radio that was the way that they that was there music after they work in the fields all day they would come back and at night time and I learned it from my mom from researching her and at knighting like that my brothers and that we would just hang out on the purch and the vatey the yard ike hear like the yard hear they were not that big but they would there was a clearance because the rest was jungle you are talking about a tropical place so there was a little clearing in the front called the batay and they would sing there music there that was there radio that was how they relaxed at night and stuff like that but today it is only used mainly at Christmas time but before it was used for any holiday if you die you get a batranda they call it if you a birthday you get a bathranda wedding baptism whatever you get a bathranda but now it is just mainly done for Christmas for Christmas time and stuff like that but it is they are really celebrating the the three kings verses santa clouse and in fact they have an improvisation were one guy( 6:52) would say well I believe in Santa clause and the other would say no I am Puerto Rican I believe in the Three Kings but they are both Puerto Ricans but because we believe in both because of the influences but that type of music my uncles that I grew up with hear even though I did not grow up in Puerto Rico I grew up with that kind of music here for Christmas we would get together the family and we would sing thoughs songs and then and believe me I have some uncles that are pretty good at improvising and they would I remember one time we went to this house one of our ants house and they had just finished painting the house I mean you could smell the paint and so they come to the door and they start with whatever and they would start singing and they would say what a beautiful house it has such nice furniture and stuff like that and the walls must have been painted by the brush of pecaso (Ha-ha) so then it so then everyone had to rhyme with that at the end they would be they would sing a song and the last vers was it was done with the brush of Picasso so I mean they that was how it works that music that kind of music but it was great music I mean its also n the web there is a bunch of websites and stuff on there on the YouTube and stuff like that but yea we grew up with so I learned a little bit about the culture and I came back and I remember the young lords sweter cause I came back before around the year o yea I came back around the year that my father comes and the first thing he does is that the tetarus the tetarus are the riffraff’s of the neighborhood and I was one of them and he was one of them everyone from there in that section growing up became one of them so its like a gang but it’s a community gang so everyone knows them nobody worried about them (Ha-ha) but they are always stealing the eggs or something but no one pays attention to them they all talk and they all scape goat them like they scape goat gangs here but they Page 27 �scape goat them but they are all kids so they cant really hate them and every single one of them would snake out there so there really all really part all the men are apart of the thing (Ha-ha) ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) JIMENEZ: And they would hang out in front of the store and look at the women and look at every one but anyway I remember but they would do serves to because my because the people that would come and visiting they would take there suit case and carry them to make them feel important for a tip and I remember my father he is over here coming to pick me up(3:57) and to visit and he hadn’t visited me all year but here he is coming to visit me but at least he’s I’m happy because he is going to take me back to Chicago so then I remember right away the titas they would carry his suit case and yea no problem and he is showing off and I am going I don’t know pops you got to slow down on the money because he starts buying everyone drinks and you got to slow down the money and I’m looking at his pants pocket like he is half way drunk he’s got his pants on and there is food stamps so the next day I tell him what are you doing showing off and you got food stamps (Ha-ha) so I said and he did not even have a job at that time my mother was the one that was working and he was getting well fair so that was the vasod that Puerto Ricans hear that was a contradiction that I was seeing how our people were acting and how it was not real how our people were playing the lottery but telling me that I cant do certain things that are not legal I said you’re not legal you are selling the numbers and what I am saying you’re your selling the numbers you’re playing the Spanish bingo which is not legal now I don’t know why that shouldn’t be legal but because they play it at the churches they play bingo at the churches so I mean that is another contradiction right but the Spanish bingo was illegal I don’t know why I mean they just they just did it for a quarter or a dime or whatever not a big thing but there were so many contradictions that you see and stuff like that then you go to school and then they are teaching you one thing and how even coming here to grand valley so and one class were they show us pictures and they say what does this person look like and everyone goes all right they had a picture of a hippy and they got a migrant worker and something like that and they go well he is a losser and this is in one of our classes and I’m going like I did not say nothing but I’m thinking to myself that guy looks like my dad how are you going to call my dad a losser he is not a loser I mean he did not have any money but he was a good parent I mean he what I am saying I mean ROBERTSON: Yea they were generalizing JIMENEZ: Yea he was a little macho and stuff like that but then(1:27) my mom had a little thing for the macho (Ha-ha) she says that a macho is a guy who can raise a family (Ha-ha) be a man he’s not he is not a macho he is not a man when he would get smart she would put him down ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) JIMENEZ: I mean it was a part of the culture thing because they also labeled macho to to mean for Spanish people and it is in all cultures and stuff like that so he was a little macho by culture he thought he was the big shot but he did not works she would put him down like I am the bread winner you don’t work you are on well fair (Ha-ha) so I mean there were so many contradictions and and that came in to play when we got in to the young lords and stuff like that and but we got in to the young lords we like I Page 28 �said we were learning from the panthers and stuff like that and we needed the whole question of selfdetermination and the whole the whole the main reason that we started was the displacement of our community we were being kicked out but then we related that to is this thing going out are we recording? ROBERTSON: I am kind of queries yea JIMENEZ: Oh ok actually the other stuff you can probable get out of the Wikipedia thing (Ha-ha) I gave you stuff that is not on there END OF INTERVIEW Page 29 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a554612e6ea23035344655137db3604.mp3 fa9084f027e31f5aac64e45563d48a7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Jimenez_Jose Title A name given to the resource Jose Jimenez audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimenez, Jose Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robertson, Timothy Hood, Ashlie Perez, Angelica Description An account of the resource Jose Jimenez was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico and lived in Chicago. He discusses his experiences as the leader of the Young Lords and an activist for Latin Americans. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e9a07b39a329f3df5b77542164950cd.pdf eef6390183fd8d95441cb33ba8580f0e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Fabiola Jimenez Interviewers: Lucas Mosher, Kelsie Overhuel, Kyle Richard and Karly Stanislovaitis Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/14/2012 Biography and Description Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman who has been living in East Michigan since 1994. She discusses how she feels as though she was never discriminated against because of her race. Transcript MOSHER: This is Lucas Mosher, Kyle Richard, Kelsie Overhuel, and Karly Stanslovaitis. We are at Mackinac hall, on the grand valley state university Allendale campus, and it is February 24th at 4:30 pm. We are interviewing Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman from East Michigan. So, Tell us your story. Let’s start from when you moved from Colombia to Texas. JIMENEZ: Yes, I came to the United States in 1971, and I was 12 years old. My parents sent me here to live with my uncle and aunt, they stayed back home. And I went to school, to middle school, I started the 7th grade. I did not go to the special school where there was bilingual education, I went to the regular school in a separate school district, where there were no Hispanic children there, but there were cousins, that live in that neighborhood. And so when I went to that school, they were pretty much the few people who spoke Spanish were my cousins, but they were all obviously in other classes. I took special classes, I guess, with the counselor, who taught me words in English from flash cards, but I also attended regular classes with the other children in science, and math. Math was taught in a progressive mode, where you worked on worksheets, and you advanced at your own pace, it wasn’t like a classroom lead math class, unless there happened to be a group of kids working on the same subject. Through that method, I was able to advance quickly through algebra, so I moved on to take algebra in the 8th grade. By the time I went to the 9th grade, I was ready for geometry, and that didn’t seem to be an obstacle that I didn’t speak English that well. I feel that having to be immersed along with the other English speaking children, and not having a bilingual education helped me learn English very fast. And so I didn’t need special bilingual education classes to be able to catch up, or move a long with the other 8th graders and high school. So that’s how I finished high school in Texas. I got married in ’81, and we moved to Michigan in ’94. Lucas was a year old. And at that time, I was already a nurse, I had gone back to school and taken a nursing degree, a bachelors in nursing, and I worked in nursing all my life. And I feel that it has never been an obstacle to have been Hispanic. I have never felt discriminated upon by my employer because of my background. I have always obtained a job with my nursing credentials. Page 1 �RICHARD: When you had first moved to Texas, did you find it difficult to learn English at first, or did you catch on quickly? JIMENEZ: I feel that I caught on rather quickly. I had help, I would bring my homework home, and of course my uncle and aunt would help me with understanding what they wanted me to learn. The Spanish teacher at school would translate the homework for me, and so I went home with some idea of what I needed to do. I in particular remember my English teacher giving me almost special attention with flash cards, and film strips, which I’m sure you don’t know what those are, but they were special films that I could progress at my own pace that would show me words and pronunciations, and would tell me little stories to help me read. I feel that it was maybe special to me, because I was one of the few kids that did not speak English along with the other people. But when my uncle chose which middle school to send me to, he didn’t send me to the neighborhood school where I went, which was predominantly Hispanic, he wanted me to learn English right away, and so he sent me to the school where there were fewer Spanish speaking kids, so I feel that I quickly made friends that spoke English, and who helped me along. In particular, a funny story that I think that sticks in my mind is at the cafeteria. You know the little milk cartons? They showed me how to open the milk carton; because of course I did not know what “push up” meant. The combination where you open it like this (gestures) and you push it up, so they showed me, that’s how you open a milk carton. Well it only took once for me to learn the milk carton, but after that I knew what “push up” was. And so I had very kind people everywhere I’ve been, in the states. With all the different communities and people I have found them to be generous towards me, and they have taught me lots of things. I’ve never felt that they would withhold knowledge or information or acceptance. So I have to say that I don’t feel that I have been discriminated upon during my time here. MOSHER: At what point in Columbia did your family decide to send you to Texas? JIMENEZ: When you’re growing up in a 3rd world country, you don’t have the opportunity to go to school, mostly for financial reasons, because school is not free. Especially your elementary school, and your high school, and college is very expensive. In the states you are guaranteed that you’ll go through high school, and your parents don’t have to pay for your school, they pay from taxes, and yet you’re guaranteed that you’re going to be provided the education that you need, and if you’re smart enough, and dedicated enough, you’ll be able to go to college if your parents have the money, they’ll be able to pay for college for you, or you can get school loans and help from the government for whatever circumstances. My parents felt that I would have better opportunities here, to go to school, and advance further. My uncle and aunt lived here, and they did not have any children, so they asked if they would be allowed to bring me with them, and so they were my guardians, my uncle and aunt, and they lived in Texas. So I feel sometimes that maybe my parents; I used to think that they didn’t love me, or they abandoned me, or whatever, but you pretty quickly grow up from those thoughts when you realize of all the riches and wealth, that we live here in the United States, You know what I mean? There’s no war, there’s jobs, there’s healthcare, there’s the opportunity to work, to go to school, and you can say what you want and go do it. While in a 3rd world country, a developing country, you don’t have those opportunities, you don’t. If your parents have money, and you are smart, and you work hard, you might be able to maintain that level, but it doesn’t come easily for you independently to do it. You sometimes Page 2 �have to know somebody, to give you the favor of having a job. You got the job because you know that person. Or they are your friends. There’s a lot of… It’s who you know that gives you the job. Not because you got it because you saw an offering in the newspaper, and you applied, and they go for the best candidate. It doesn’t happen that way. And to get into school, is tough competition, because there are limited resources. Here, if you didn’t get into a 4 year college, well you can go to a 2 year college, and maybe bring up your grades so that next year you can go to a 4 year college. And you can go to college all your life. Here I am, as old as I am, and I was able to go back to school, and right now I’m in school to get my masters. In south America, if you don’t go to school when you’re young, weather you had the skills, the knowledge, and the money, to pay for school, in your later years, you probably won’t have the opportunity to go back to school. If you don’t have that opportunity when you are young, and take advantage of it, it’s probably gone for you, the opportunity to go back to school. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that you had to pay for school, unlike you do here, before you go to college, so are you aware of how much that was? Or how much it would have been? JIMENEZ: Well it depends, because there are private schools, like kids that go to private schools here in the states, and they are very expensive. And there are also other schools, like the Montessori schools have a different fee, and pretty much it’s what your parents are willing to pay. There are public schools, but there’s a lot of kids in those schools that they probably don’t have the best resources to provide the best education. So if you can go to a catholic school, where the nuns will teach you, you’re probably considered very well educated, by having been given the best opportunity to succeed. MOSHER: What point growing up did your opinion of your parents sending you to America change from resentment to sadness, to like, “oh, thanks for sending me.”? JIMENEZ: When I went back home after high school, I went for a couple of years, and I realized that what I had learned in the states was applicable in south America, but it wasn’t what I wanted, because for a woman in a 3rd world country, when she becomes of marriage age, it is expected of her to marry and have kids. And I didn’t think I was ready. To me, I still had school to go to. Because I wanted to go to college, and I probably couldn’t have gone to college down there. So at the time I realized what they really wanted for me was to have a better lifestyle, more opportunity that other people don’t have. STANISLOVAITIS: Did they ever talk to you about that, or was it just something that you came to realize on your own? JIMENEZ: A little bit of both. We talked about it, especially after you grow up and you realize that your sisters’ lives are not that much better, and that they probably would have been better, or different if they had had the opportunities that we as women have here. That other girls don’t have in a 3rd world country. We can make the decision not just of career, but weather we want to marry or not, weather we want to have children or not. In other countries, you are told what you’re going to be doing. (Laughs) Over here, we don’t, we can do many things, when we want. We can decide even who to marry, we don’t have to wait for our parents to make the match, or for a man to come asking, we go look for one. It is just different culturally, and expectations for women are different. STANISLOVAITIS: How many sisters do you have? Page 3 �JIMENEZ: I have lots of sisters, one of them had 3 kids, and another younger sister than me has 2 children. But they have also travelled abroad, for better opportunities. I have a sister that lives in London, and of course she left Colombia, because of jobs, the economic situation is better for jobs and financially. We don’t have that many resources that everybody can be guaranteed a job. RICHARD: So when you finally decided that you were going to move to Michigan, what played into your decision to move from Texas to a place like Michigan? JIMENEZ: That was marriage. School, for my husband, dictated that we would move to Michigan, for job reasons. At that time I already had my nursing degree, and it was very easy for me to get a job almost through Internet and the mail, through a travelling nurse agency. I came to William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, as a travelling nurse, until we settled in Michigan, and figured out where we wanted to look for a house. When we settled in Milford, Michigan, then it was easier for me to see what hospitals were in the area, and I have worked in the area ever since we moved here. And it’s going to be 19 years, 18 years for sure. So it wasn’t like my decision, it was just like a family situational thing, that it was time to move for job reasons, and so we did. MOSHER: Would Michigan have been your first choice if you had just and option to go anywhere? JIMENEZ: Um, you know up to the time we moved to Michigan we had the luxury, I guess, to travel throughout the United States with being, you know, we’ve been in many states and every states has special situations that I don’t think I would have been unhappy practically anywhere. You know what I mean? I think that I would have found contentment, or satisfaction wherever I lived as long as it was in the United States. You know what I mean? It just doesn’t matter, I mean the highway system makes sense, we speak a common language, you know? We expect certain things so I don’t think I would have preferred living in California or Florida or move back to Texas. Now I do have to admit that it took me a while to accept living in Michigan. Right. Because you have a certain vision of things that you want your life to be and it didn’t seem that at the beginning that it was going the way I wanted, I expected it. Ok? Because we all have expectations. But after a while you realize it’s not bad at all. We have a job, we have a house, we’re healthy. Lucas is going to school. You know and that kind of thing. You kinda settle into the acceptance mode. That this is okay and now the weather doesn’t bother me. It was like yay snow! It was time to get some snow. So it will be gone here, it’s gone actually and the tulips are going to bloom soon so…I like it, I appreciate it now. I appreciate the fall and the summer, the apples and the cherries. All those things I appreciate them more now. But it takes time for me to I guess mature and settle down in the environment that you live. MOSHER: So I guess it’s safe to say that you wouldn’t choose to live in any area other than the United States? JIMENEZ: Oh absolutely, Yeah, cause we’ve lived, I have had the opportunity to live in a third world country and when we were younger we had the opportunity to travel to Europe and live in Europe for nine months and it was not a good experience. There I felt discriminated. MOSHER: Can you describe some of those instances of discrimination? Page 4 �JIMENEZ: Overseas? Yes. Um, we lived in Belgium and they are a French speaking country and we lived in the French speaking area of Belgium and we would go to the bakery and I would want a loaf of bread and of course my French is not very good and I couldn’t make myself understood so I would notice they would serve the customer who had walked in the door behind me first before they would attend to me. So I assumed it was loyalty to the customer, that’s a regular well we had just gotten there. But no it seemed to be a persistent pattern that I had to wait for the girl in the back to come and help me. Not necessarily in English either. While here I feel that, in America if you go to the Japanese store or the Korean store you can walk in and pick whatever you want. You got money and you are going to spend it in my store so yay come in. Exactly? No they are not going to discriminate against you; you’re coming to give the business so I felt somewhat discriminated. MOSHER: Do you feel that that was in part to your Columbian upbringing or your language barriers? JIMENEZ: I think it was in part language barrier and a little bit signaphobia. MOSHER: So they just didn’t like outsiders? JIMENEZ: They just didn’t like outsiders because I think they felt that there were quite an influx of foreign students into the community that we were living in. STANISLOVAITIS: Do you in general people there were maybe more hostile or maybe not as accepting as people in America? JIMENEZ: Yes, Yes I feel that they were not accepting and I feel that they were annoyed that we were butchering their French roots and not speaking properly. MOSHER: This is kinda funny because earlier in class we watched a video called “Black Boy” and it’s about Richard Wright, the author and in that video he was talking about how he moved to France and actually really liked it because he didn’t feel discriminated against there. So it was kinda funny hearing you saying that you felt discriminated there and he saying he actually enjoying it more. JIMENEZ: I don’t know people have different experiences and different perceptions. I know personally that I wouldn’t want to live in Europe. For sure, I don’t want to live in Europe. I like my car, I like my mobility, I’m comfortable anywhere but, so I don’t know. We all have different perceptions so I would not move overseas. I don’t even want to travel overseas. I’ve been there so I don’t want to go. I mean I don’t want to discourage you from going. I mean Paris is beautiful, London is beautiful and it’s definitely an experience to behold, to be involved in it but I wouldn’t want to go. Brush that old city in Belgium is beautiful and I appreciate their history but I don’t want to live there. STANISLOVAITIS: Did you say that you valued having the experience knowing that that wasn’t what you wanted and did it make you appreciate being an American even more? JIMENEZ: Absolutely, absolutely because I can see what influences have made America what it is now. So yes, I appreciate it very much. I like it here. I love it here. I don’t want to go anywhere. So but no you as young people I encourage you to travel and see the world and experience it and formulate your own Page 5 �opinion; don’t let anybody discourage you from going to Mexico. Mexico is beautiful. Columbia is beautiful. They have their things to offer, experiences to offer. STANISLOVAITIS: I feel like in America we are a little bit spoiled and we think that everyone has what we have, but they don’t. JIMENEZ: Yeah, they don’t have it and sometimes I feel that young people are like ingrates. They are not thankful for the things that they have and they don’t appreciate it. So yeah do go, go and see how the rest of the world lives and you’ll soon realize that you are very unique in your own self. Just because you are in America because it makes you who you are and you are very unique and they’re the ones that are “weird”. I didn’t say that. No but do travel if you get the opportunity to go on an exchange program or go for the summer somewhere. Do go, absolutely. Don’t be afraid of it. RICHARD: Earlier you had mentioned that you were a nurse; do you think you can tell us a little bit about your nursing career and how you got into nursing? JIMENEZ: Absolutely, it’s a great question. The thought of nursing was put into me by a teacher I met in High School. She taught a class called Health Education and because I was a foreign student, Health Occupations Education it was the class, and because I was a foreign student I was not able to work and have a job and get paid cause I did not have a Social Security number. A little card with social security number, I had a student visa. So my job was to be her assistant. She gave me the job to be her assistant and I could take both classes, the first period and the second period and for work I would be her assistant. Because the kids were able to work in doctors’ offices, dentals, at the hospital, clinic that kind of thing but I couldn’t cause I didn’t have the proper documentation I guess for work permit. So she guided me and told me that I should consider being a nurse and influenced me a lot in making that my career so I always knew that that’s what I wanted to do or that’s what I should do. And to tell you the truth I never imagined myself not being a nurse either, from her influences, and so that’s what I’m did. I was not able to go to school right away after finishing high school but once I was able to return to the United States I started taking classes at the community college, one class at a time, two classes at a time because I had to work and pay for school at the same time. My parents did not have the financial resources to say yeah go to Grand Valley, live in the dorm and we’ll pay your tuition. It wasn’t that way, I had to pay for myself. And so I could only work a little bit and take a class here and there. Once I got married it afforded me a little bit of financial freedom because of my husband’s job and income and I was able then to pay for school and go full time and so I got my bachelors in science and nursing and I worked as a critical care nurse for eighteen years. And I am now going back to school to get my masters and I hope to get my nurse practitioner’s degree with an education certificate by 2014, so I hope to be done soon. As in soon, in two years’ time goes by fast. So I hope that I’ll be able to accomplish that. But yeah, I was influenced by a lady that I call mother, I call her mother. Her name was Evelyn and she influenced me to go stay in a health career path. So I’ve been a nurse all this time. Never a day unemployed for sure. I always had a job. MOSHER: Before you met her what were your ideas of what to do in life? Page 6 �JIMENEZ: What to do? I probably didn’t have any ideas. Just winging it. Yeah, I was probably was just winging it. You go to school and you study and what not but I had taken a Child Development class and through that class we had to have practicum hours and I went to an elementary school, a kindergarten and pre-kinder and I was the teacher assistant with the kids and that seemed like fun so I thought maybe I want to be a teacher but because this health occupations Education was also an elective class that you could sign up for during High School. I did that and in that would discuss what a dentist does, what a doctor does, nurses, pathology, lab tech and all the different careers in the health care and so I knew that one of those would be fine for me. That I would like it, I enjoyed the Anatomy Physiology component of the class. Talking about diseases and stuff like that so I think I would’ve chosen something in medicine but nursing seemed acceptable. So that’s what I’ve done all this time. MOSHER: Earlier off the record we talked about some people not understanding your accent over the phone… JIMENEZ: Mhm, I have to do some phone interviews for the patients are coming for procedures and stuff and give them instructions prior to their procedures and at times I have to speak to people and it hasn’t been often and occasionally I’ll bump into someone who is less patient and maybe my accent comes a lot stronger or louder over the phone and they say I have a hard time understanding you. I think it’s your accent or something and I say well I’ll have someone else call you, no problem there. It’s kinda like did you not understand me or were you just not willing to talk to me? But what can you do? STANISLOVAITIS: I know if you would’ve you decided you still wanted to live in Columbia and still wanted to do in nursing do you feel that since you would’ve not really had that opportunity to get the education that the quality of care that you would’ve given would be lower? JIMENEZ: Since I was in South America when I was little I did not even consider even studying nursing. But I did do, I took a certificate as a bilingual secretary and I started working as a bilingual secretary because I had learned English in high school so that gave me a leg up instead into perhaps a business degree or a business career in secretarial at work or maybe a hotel, tourism or something I probably would’ve done that because of my bilingual ability. So I wouldn’t have considered nursing but if I had considered nursing the quality would be according to their resources. And I know that many people in South America they do have access to medication but they are not free. Is that like when you go to the public health department? Have you ever been to the public health department? In South America you have to pay for your…for everything, when you come to the hospital here women give you a bucket with tooth brush tooth paste soap a towel…right, a bucket to puck in if you need to…right. When you go to the hospital in South America you better bring those things with you or have someone bring them for you including the sheets. And if preferably bring someone to stay with you to help you with your stay in the hospital because there are few health care people who are skilled to take care of patents there’s fewer medications right. And there is fewer resources. So it’s not as available as it is here. So I don’t think that if I had stayed in South America in Columbia that I would be a nurse right now. More than likely not. And probably…I would have had more than one child. (Laughs) I would probably have twenty of them. (Laughs) I don’t know what the deal is but it would have been my choice definitely it be only Page 7 �what I wanted. You know what I mean? My life would have been a little bit different. In a more male dominated environment. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that your sisters, they still live in Columbia so like do you feel like they because of all of the opportunities that you have gotten in America. Do you feel like they have any desire to have the same opportunities? JIMENEZ: Mhmm well yeah I am sure they have. I mean they’re not lacking. I mean they have a nice house, a nice home they have families and everything. But like what I was telling you we all settle in to what our fortune is and you accept it. You know what I mean? So I think they have been content, you know my oldest sister you know she has her husband, her kids, they’re in their thirties their grown. You know, she’s a grandma. You know I am sure she loves her grand children and stuff. You just kind of settle in to you lifestyle, and make the best of it. You know? And make the best opportunity that you have, she had a good job and her husband had a good job and it provided for their families. You know? They took advantage of the opportunity that was offered to them at the time, but I don’t think that they had the same choices I had. *Pause* JIMENEZ: So I encourage you to travel overseas or even in the United States. I encourage you to stay in school and if your parents are paying for it take all that you can. (Laughs) And take advantage of it because once you start paying for it yourself it is hard, it is hard to part with that money that you are paying for by yourself. And it is difficult to work and go to school at the same time, it’s hard I mean I am sure you have friends who work and go to school at the same time or who would like to be at Grand Valley but they have to go to the community college because they can’t afford it or didn’t get student loans. Or if they got the student loans [they are] already in debt to pay for the student loans. You know what I mean? If you have a scholarship definitely take advantage of it. Stay in School. You know prepare yourself because knowledge is something that nobody and take away from you. I mean that goes where you where ever you go, it will follow you. You know? And you never know when you are going to us it; you never know when it will become valuable for you. So…the opportunity presented itself for me to go back to school right now so I want to go I want to do it so I always wanted to get my masters. I am working on my masters right now. Very busy. The house isn’t clean, the kitchen isn’t washed the dishes aren’t washed, but Lucas is not home so it can stay that way. You know so I like it though I’m happy…I’m happy to be going to school now. It will be over April 15th so…just keep my calendar of how many more days. I know you do too right? (Laughs) You know, so stay in school and travel if you can now that your young, and you can see the world. RICHARD: Could you tell us a bit about because you said you graduated high school and you went back to Columbia JIMENEZ: I went back to Columbia for two…two years maybe RICHARD: Could you tell us what it was like when you finally came back to the United States? Page 8 �JIMENEZ: Oh, it was wonderful. When I came back to the United States I lived with my brother who was also living in Texas and after a couple of months I didn’t like living in his house because I needed to go to school and what not so I called the teacher I told you about and told her I needed a place to stay and she allowed me in her house. She was single, no children elderly obviously she was my high school teacher. And so I lived in the house with her. And so while I worked and continued to go to the community college I lived with her for a couple of years. And than shortly after that I got married. And I have been married ever since. And that changed you know my life quite differently it became a different dynamic. Where I still can go to school full time but I was able to go to school part time and work and start you know the next step. You get married have children except the child didn’t come until thirteen years later you know. (Laughs) It just happened that way but it was my choice it was a decision for me to make you know what I mean it wasn’t my parent’s decision to make. So… STANISLOVAITIS: I sound like you have always sort of valued being independent and to have. JIMENEZ: Ahh your very smart, you are so smart. Yes and that is something that this this is funny. You’re going to make me laugh because yes a thing a child would experience. I was raised. most Hispanics are catholic. And for my elementary school I did go to a Catholic school. I was raised by the Catholic Church in school. But when it came to Sundays my grandfather would take me to a Presbyterian church. Which is a protestant faith. So during the weekend…during the week I was catholic but on the weekend I was protestant. Right because I was going to the catholic school it came the time where the girls had to do their first communion. Who any kind of Catholics? Are you Catholic? No, Okay but you know what a first communion is they have the ceremony and it’s like an induction in to somewhat older girlhood or adulthood almost. So I did my first communion and I did that without my parents consent. Because as far as I was concerned they could go to hell but I not. So I did my first communion and how my parents found out I found me a dress, the Vail, the shoes and somebody to take me up there to do my first communion, because that is what we were learning in school. It is time to do your first communion and this is why it is important to do it and dedicate your life you know say that you know are catholic. Now profess your faith. Yeah I think I am I’m not going to hell. So I did my first communion and how my parents found out was because the photographer brought pictures to the house to see if they wanted to buy the pictures of the beautiful girl doing her first communion. So yes I have been very independent so that’s an example right there. The other example I can give you about independence I can give you about independence is my…piercing of your ears. You know some Hispanic countries they do believe for children to have their ears pierced if they are girls the day they are born. You know? Mom already has earrings in the girls ears, my mom didn’t do that to me she wanted me to wait until you know I was fourteen or fifteen to get my ears pierced. No I didn’t wait I was probably seven or so my friend was getting her ears pierced by her grandmother and I went and had my ears pierced without my mothers consent. So yes you are very…very observant. Very smart. But yes I have been very independent sometimes gets me in trouble too. So yes I have been very independent in doing my own thing and that’s something you don’t…a luxury almost that most girls don’t have in third world countries to choose you know, what classes they are going to take next semester. You know someone is always telling you what to do whether it is your parents or your husband or somebody else. Yeah Page 9 �MOSHER: What were your parent’s reactions to you going off and doing those things with out their consent? JIMENEZ: Well (Laughs) my mom bought the pictures so whatcha’ going to do you know. (Laughs) I have a couple of them. She could not afford all of them but she did buy a couple of pictures and the other pictures I remember the man being upset when my mom told him that she couldn’t buy all the pictures and he tossed them in the street. You know she only bought two of them you know what I mean. I have…I have…I have those pictures. And for my earrings I had to hear the lecture I told you so, I told you so, I told you so, because they got infected. And so I had to do that, washing with soup and water and put alcohol in that little thread in there so that … MOSHER: to floss the little thing JIMENEZ: Yeah yeah to keep the hole open. Yeah you know if I hadn’t done that it would have just sealed back up but of course it got infected because I am sure the old lady that poked my ear probably didn’t disinfect the needle. It’s probably old and dirty. You know she did my friends ears and than she did my ears. So it’s like oh my gosh. So totally not clean technique, she probably didn’t even wash her hands you know. But my mom was very prompt to remind me “I told you so”. But what not they healed I got earrings (Laughs) So but anyway besides being annoyed and upset I think that she was also supportive you know you can only control your children so much that’s the other thing as a parent I have learned now. I can only offer my children the opportunity and than they have to make their own decisions as to what they are going to do with their lives. So that’s it. MOSHER: On a different not I know you met your husband Mark in high school, how did you do the two years when you were in Columbia after high school? JIMENEZ: Oh very good question. …letters. Mark would send me letters. Well Mark didn’t right me…I don’t know maybe six months almost a year until he sent me the first letter in high school. And I think it was because he bumped in to my cousin or something so he …got my address from one of them or I don’t remember what happened but I started getting letters in the mail and because the mail was so slow many times I would get two, three letters at a time. And I would try to send him a letter back. And I have a stack of letters and so I started telling him to please number the letters that way I would know that there was another letter coming. Because sometimes I think he spent his time in class writing the letter to me rather than studying. Because many times it would be written in the notebook and on notebook paper and than I feel that he would just finish fold it up put in an envelope and put it in the mail. If he was not finished with the letter he would continue on another page, and so he would send that one the next day and the mail…one would not catch up with the other and they would arrive out of order. So he started numbering the letters. And you know I would try to keep them in order. So I have a little stack of letters that Mark sent from the states, cards and that kind of thing. And the calling of the phone was expensive. We didn’t have Skype there was no email no instant messaging. You know none of those things that we take for granted now. I mean right now I could get on the internet with Skype connection and call my sister you know and see her you know it’s kinda cool. We didn’t have that and you know the phone it was expensive. And he had to tell me in a letter “ I’m going to try to call you on this day at this time” and than I would have to wait and think, “Is he going to call is he not going to call” Page 10 �you know I can’t leave. You know what I mean it was just a lot of hassle a lot of difficulty but…but that’s how it was done. No instant messaging, no texting, no emails, no phone messages either. No answering machines, did we have answering machines? I don’t think so. None of the convince. STANISLOVAITIS: That must have been really hard. JIMENEZ: It’s really hard. I know it’s really hard. It’s even hard now when he says “oh I can’t talk to you I have phone fatigue”. It’s like really? Phone fatigue. But anyway yeah it’s it’s really hard. It was really hard, it’s almost like a joke you know “no text messaging” (Laughs) I still don’t have text messaging but I know it’s available. You know what I mean. I mean if I don’t have it it’s because I’m delayed in moving in to the 21st technological advances. 21st century technological advances but not because I don’t want them you know I haven’t found a need for it. But you know it’s there. STANISLOVAITIS: Can you blame anyone that doesn’t want to be connected to everything all of the time? JIMENEZ: I know exactly. I do panic if I can’t find my cell phone. So yes I am one of those that has developed I think they came out on the Internet with a new phobia of being separated from your computer or I don’t know what they call it…eh phobia. So yeah I don need my cell phone. JIMENEZ: I think they came out with a new phobia of being separated from your computer or your…I don’t know what they call it. So yeah, I do need my cell phone. I’m always in the wrong place of town. I’m always like, I’m lost look at the internet, how do I get outta here, you know, and I’m on my way home or had a flat tire {and} ran out of gas, whatever I’m gonna be late, so I do need a cell phone. MOSHER: Earlier you talked about how you think young people they’re ungrateful for what they have. Do you think that’s in part due to the satisfaction of things like text messaging and Skype? JIMENEZ: I just think that, and I think we all, have a little bit of {a} lack of gratitude at one time or another, because it wasn’t until much later that I understood, and felt very grateful, that my parents sent me here. As hard as it was to be away from my parents during my early adolescent years and early adulthood, you know when I wish to be maybe mothered more than what my aunt was willing to do for me- because she wasn’t my mother, she was my aunt, after all. So I felt a little bit ingrateful {sic} not grateful enough, I feel. But later on I understood it was because she really wanted me to have better opportunities, and so I appreciated that highly. And I think with kids now all they have to do is tell the Easter Bunny what they want to bring ‘em and they kinda get it, ya know what I mean? I want a new swimsuit I want a new car, ya know, some kids get it, they just get it. Their parents are there. And so they don’t see that even though their parents go to work everyday, have to punch a card everyday, make sure that they don’t go on vacations, that they follow their finances and expenditures and purchases and stuff like that it still affects them. I think if their parents had a choice they’d wanna stay home, they don’t wanna go to work, ya know, unless they really love their job so much ya know, but at one time or another everybody has had to make even the sacrifice of getting up early in the morning to get in the car to drive to work. You may not always feel…you may like your work, but you may not always feel like you’re ready to go. You wanna sleep late on Monday morning sometimes, ya know? Page 11 �So you take for granted that at one time or another your parents have had to make do to provide for their children. Even if it is a different extra expenditure of the cell phone, the instant messaging, ya know the calls, the extra hours of points so you don’t go over your minutes or whatnot, you know what I mean? New clothes. And you wanna give your kids, too, ya know? So I think that kids just have it easy now. I mean there’s no more child labor, ya know what I mean? And you’re not gonna go hungry, most parents would provide for their kids, unless there are other circumstances, ya know, I’m not saying that all parents have the ability to provide for their children, ya know there is other issues whether it is drug dependency, or mental illness or unemployment like what’s going on right now, but I think for the most part parents, at one time or another, have always made a little compromise for their children. Ya know, diapers are expensive, especially when you’re just starting out and you’re working for a little bit more than minimum wage and you have a baby. And all of a sudden it’s like, it’s not that you don’t want the baby, but another side of you that money’s gonna be not for your haircut or your nails, it’s gonna go for diapers or a bigger Onesie ‘cause he’s growing too fast, ya know, so…and I don’t know that kids understand that, but I think you all will. At one time or another you’ll be parents yourselves and you will understand that a little bit better. MOSHER: Earlier we were talking about how you hadn’t seen much discrimination in America; do you think that’s true for almost everyone or do you think America’s just a really friendly place? JIMENEZ: I don’t know, I don’t wanna say that there isn’t discrimination, I just, from my personal experience, I have to say I have not ever felt it being directed ya know? But I mean I know that, , some African American individuals feel that they have been discriminated. Ya know I have never felt that, ya know. Some of ‘em may say that they need to be ‘paid back’ for slavery after all this time, I never can say that I’ve been a slave so I don’t know their experiences so I don’t have a shared experience with that, but I was like you, learned in school. I don’t deny it- yes, there was slavery- ya know, but I don’t know how to put it. I’m sure there’s discrimination. I can’t say that I have experienced it. STANISLOVAITIS: Well it seems like there’s a really big perception among other countries that Americans are spoiled and entitled, and like you said earlier, kids especially are not grateful for what they have because we have so many opportunities. Since you have been back to Columbia a few times, were you old enough, did you feel that way when you came back to America, did it make you look at Americans differently? JIMENEZ: No, because it’s just the environment that we live in; you just don’t know any better, you just don’t know any different. Until you experience that yourself you’re not gonna realize that it’s any different, right? I think that’s how I see it. But yeah, I could say that most kids are spoiled, but that’s what we want, as parents, we want ‘em to have what we didn’t have, you know what I mean? Like, I never had a beautiful bicycle when I grew up; I learned to ride a bicycle when I was fifteen. So needless to say I’m not very agile in turning wheelies and all this stuff, right, but when Lucas became of age, five or six, to have a bicycle, I got him the most beautiful bicycle I could find, because it was the bicycle I would’ve loved to have had as a kid. And granted it wasn’t purple and it didn’t have little flutteries, but it was a very beautiful red bicycle, right, Lucas? Page 12 �And I think as parents you will learn that it doesn’t matter, you’re gonna try to give your kids the very best you can. So I think that’s just being a parents ‘flaw’ or fault; we wanna give the kids the best. We don’t want them to have an trouble like our parents had or like I had, even though I don’t feel like I’ve had any trouble. We always wanna make it best for them, which may not be the best parenting thing to have done. We still wanna teach them to work hard, to study hard, to achieve, to progress, to motivate. But we don’t accomplish that test by providing things for them. MOSHER: The distaste…from other countries about America, do you think that stems from jealousy, or do they have other motives for disliking us as a country? JIMENEZ: I feel in part it’s jealousy, but also in part it’s their cultural influences, their own cultural influences. Because many people have had a background of being raised in a socialist mentality, that your computer is my computer, too, right? While, in America, it’s like, no, I have my computer, you have your computer, and you have your computer. And you get the computer you can afford, I get the computer I can afford, and you get the computer you can afford, but we all have computers, right? Over there I feel like it comes from the mentality that we’re gonna have to share and I don’t care how much money you have, you’re gonna pay more taxes and that kinda stuff. So it’s partly their social upbringing, their political influences, and their cultural as well. While here in America I feel that if I get two jobs, I might be able to get an Apple {computer} like that. It may take me a little bit longer saving it, but nobody’s gonna tell me I can’t have it. If I want it you betcha I’m gonna work for it and I’m gonna get it, even it means I’m not gonna go to McDonald’s’ for the next two months. Nobody’s telling me I cannot have it; nobody’s regulating whether I can go to the Apple store, or Walmart or Kmart or Meijer’s to get it, ya know what I mean? While over there they may only have one computer for sale; they may not have computers for everybody anyway, whether you have the money or not. Does that make sense? Does that make sense or am I just rambling? MOSHER: Do you think there’s anywhere else in the world that functions on that same ‘if you want it you can have it’ kinda thing, or is America the only place to get that? JIMENEZ: I think, another place might be, I’m assuming, I don’t know for a fact, but I think maybe England might work under those premises. That if you have the money, and you want it, and you have a job, you can get it. While in Mexico, for example, they may not be able to find that second job to buy what they want because their first job isn’t providing for them. Even if they wanted to get a second job, there isn’t one. Even here, with the extent of unemployment, and I don’t know if your parents are employed or unemployed with the economical circumstances we have now, we can still go mow the yards, there are still signs that say ‘help wanted.’ OK, maybe not with the skills that you went to school for or whatever, but you can find a job. I don’t know, I don’t think there’s another place in the world like the United States, I don’t think so. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that you have done a lot of traveling…do you feel like that has given you a bigger appreciation for not only for where you came from and where you are, but from a global view? Page 13 �JIMENEZ: Yeah, because I learned to appreciate other people’s cultures. For example, in my house I like to celebrate the Chinese New Year in January, so we have Chinese food. I love Chinese food, I wouldn’t wanna be without it. I wanna know that it’s available and I like it. I like to go to the Vietnamese kitchen; I like to go to the Italian restaurants, so defiantly I can appreciate the foods. My Pączki’s didn’t go unnoticed from the Polish community, I knew that they were available for when I wanted to get it, so I can appreciate that. I can appreciate the music, and I can appreciate the contributions that they have done not just to the United States, but culturally, and through literature and all that stuff. So yes, it broadens your prospective, and I appreciate that. But I don’t wanna live there; I’m happy right here. I wanna know that I can go just about any city in the United States and find a Chinese restaurant, an Italian restaurant, Greek, ya know. Whatever, I just want it here, I wanna go. STANISLOVAITIS: I think it’s kinda interested you mentioned restaurants and food and general things like that. When people think of things that they don’t have they don’t think of things like that. ‘Cause we’re always taught big things like education, and being independent and being able to provide for yourself. I feel like we don’t realize if we didn’t have those opportunities we wouldn’t have any of that. JIMENEZ: Absolutely. The little things do matter. And pretty soon you’ll realize it’s not the big picture, but it’s things that you do everyday that matter the most. MOSHER: So I guess to wrap things up here it’s safe to say that you think America’s a pretty diverse place? {Inaudible} JIMENEZ: Absolutely. I feel that it’s very diverse, and I feel that people are realizing that they need to fight for the opportunities and to keep it, for the opportunity to continue to be on their level. For the mentality that hard work would provide things for you, not wait for somebody to give them to you, OK. Don’t expect the government to provide for you health care, safety or security, or anything like that. You need to be able to provide those things for yourself, and in return provide it for your family, your community, and your. {Inaudible}. Whether it is the freedom of choice, the freedom of religion, the freedom to go to school and study whatever you want. And to shop for the things you want to shop for, and work as many jobs as you want to. MOSHER: Well, thank you for coming in Group: Thank you END OF INTERVIEW Page 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a2588214a018331d7231e2e49e2ef579.mp3 a35c6475300f6ff561200cdd0bcca1a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Jimenez_Fabiola Title A name given to the resource Fabiola Jimenez audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimenez, Fabiola Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mosher, Lucas Overhuel, Kelsie Richard, Kyle Karly Stanislovaitis Description An account of the resource Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman who has been living in East Michigan since 1994. She discusses how she feels as though she was never discriminated against because of her race. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9d38a8694eadcfdd3a71956170a72db6.pdf 069d503a407a6097aadcd49cce868c95 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Helen Grahuis Interviewers: Alissa Cohen, Hannah Frazer, Bryce Byker and Eli Bale Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/16/2012 Biography and Description Helen Grahius was born and raised in Haren, Groningen, Netherlands. Later in life, she moved to West Michigan to be with her siblings. She discusses her life in the Netherlands and in the United States. Transcript INTERVIEWER: Okay, so we’re recording it now the first thing I gotta do is read you this oral release form. So it’s “I, Helen Grashuis. hereby agree to participate in aninterview in connection with the oral history project known as “Speaking Out: WesternMichigan’s Civil Rights Histories” at Grand Valley State University. I understand thatthe purpose of this project is to collect audio-recorded oral histories, as well as selectedrelated documentary materials such as photographs and manuscripts, from thoseknowledgeable about civil rights and civil rights activism in Western Michigan with thegoal of preserving these materials and making them available for teaching and research.This may include publication in print, multimedia programs such as radio or television. and the WWW, among others.” So, basically we can use the interview you’re giving us. We can like write a paper about it and we can maybe put some of it on the The internet and ... which we probably won’t because it’s just a small thing, but that would be pretty cool (Everyone laughs) GRAHUIS: Now, do I have to have experience? INTERVIEWER: No. You don’t have to have experience! GRAHUIS: Okay! ‘Cause I don’t! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: (Laughing) Neither do we! Okay number two: I understand that I may be identified by name, subject to my consent. I may also be identified by name in any transcript (whether verbatim or edited) of such interview, subject to my consent. If I choose to remain anonymous, which you can, I know that audio-recordings of my interview will be closed to use, and my name will not appear in the transcript or reference to any material contained in the interview. I know that in the case of choosing to remain anonymous, my interview will only be identified by an internal ‘Speaking Out” project tracking number. So, you’ll just have a number. Page 1 �GRAHUIS: Oh. INTERVIEWER: And you won’t have a name I understand that the interview will take approximately two hours ... or one hour — GRAHUIS: Yeah! ‘Cause I have to go to bible study! INTERVIEWER: ... yeah, (oral release form continued) and that I can withdraw from the project without prejudice prior to the execution and delivery of this release form. So you can still back out at any time. In the event — GRAHUIS: Oh! Let’s go Monique! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: In the event that I withdraw from the interview, any recordings make of the interview will be either given to me or destroyed, and no transcript will be made of the interview. I understand that a photograph of me may be taken or borrowed for duplication, and that if I withdraw from the project, the photograph will be given to me and any copies made by the project destroyed. Number four: I understand that, upon completion of the interview, and subject to all the other terms and conditions of this agreement, GVSU shall own the copyright to this work and will be able to use it in any manner it chooses including but not limited to use by researchers and students in presentations and publications, but that I shall be given a perpetual permissive license to use my contribution in any manner or any medium as long as I notify GVSU prior to such use. Wow. Number five, there’s only a few more GRAHUIS: Oh, okay. INTERVIEWER: I understand that any restrictions as to use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. So, you can tell us to leave parts out if you want number six: I understand that upon the completion of this interview and signing this release, the recordings, photographs, and one copy of the transcript will be kept in Grand Valley State University Libraries’ Special Collections in Allendale, Michigan. So, all of these interviews, we’re keeping them all in one place. So, all the students in our class and other classes are interviewing people also like professors and other people they know and it will all be kept in one place — all those different interviews. GRAHUIS: Oh! INTERVIEWER: Number seven: If I have questions about the research project or procedures, I know that I can contact Dr. Melanie Shell-Weiss in the Department of Liberal Studies, and it tells all her contact information. Okay, so now — do you guys have a pen? — we need you to sign this... are you okay with us identifying you? Is that okay? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Awesome. So ... you just need to sign right here. Page 2 �GRAHUIS: My name? INTERVIEWER: Your name, the address and the date, and your phone number. GRAHUIS: The date today is 16, right? INTERVIEWER: Yup, march 16. GRAHUIS: 3, 16. INTERVIEWER: 12. Monique (Helen’s daughter): Yes, my dad really did wear these. (She pulls out a pair of old wooden shoes) INTERVIEWER: Oh my goodness, that’s so cool. Can I see this? What size are these? (Trying the shoes on) GRAHUIS: I don’t know... BALE: You’ll probably fit into them INTERVIEWER: I don’t know... BALE: Actually, they may be a little to big — small, I mean to big. INTERVIEWER: To big? BALE: Yeah, your feet are way to big. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Ouch. Aw man, I would have to get used to these. I bought a pair when I went there... what size shoe do you wear? 13’s. And those are to big for you? BALE: Do they fit you? INTERVIEWER: No. Not even close. What, they’re way to big? Yeah. BALE: Yeah, they’re to big. INTERVIEWER: I wear 10’s. BALE: Oh wow. GRAHUIS: The interviewee’s me. INTERVIEWER: Do you agree to be identified by name? Oh, and, you don’t wish to remain anonymous. And Helen”... BALE: These are speculaas (pulling out a box of cookies). Have you ever had these? INTERVIEWER: Ooh! GRAHUIS: (signing her name) Grashuis. Page 3 �BALE: They’re like ginger cookies. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Help yourself. Do you want one, mom? GRAHUIS: No thanks. INTERVIEWER: Alright. I’m just going to write my name for the thing. GRAHUIS: Speculaas. INTERVIEWER: Thank you. BALE: (Pulling out a picture frame) Oh, and this is my dad wearing his wooden shoes. INTERVIEWER: Oh! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: Wow, that’s awesome. GRAHUIS: Yup. That’s my husband. He died three years ago. INTERVIEWER: Oh really. Okay, so. Did you guys know how we want to start this? Or do we just want to wing it? Well, we have to introduce ourselves. Okay. No that’s not me. (Looking at a picture) I’m not that cute. (Everyone laughs) GRAHUIS: You are! You’ve changed since I’ve last seen you! INTERVIEWER: Look at that... (looking at pictures). GRAHUIS: For the better! INTERVIEWER: Thank you! So we need to introduce ourselves. And say who we’re interviewing. Oh yeah, that’s right! It’s in the sample question packet, I think you’ve got it. That’s right here. This is kind ofjust an outline... BALE: Here I’ll take that. INTERVIEWER: Okay, sweet. I’ve got what we have to say right in here. So, I’m just going to follow what this says may name is Eli Bale. And we have Bryce Byker, Hannah Frazier. Allisa Cohen. We are here on Friday, March the third, at 3:16 — the 16th GRAHUIS: 16 honey. INTERVIEWER: At quarter after 3 pm with Mrs. Helen Grashuis in Kirkhoff on Grand Valley State University’s campus in Allendale, Michigan. We are here about to talk about Mrs. Grashuis’s memories of her childhood and anything else she can remember about her life in western Michigan. Okay. And we also have Monique Bale, who’s here to help us conduct the interview. Page 4 �BALE: Helen’s daughter. GRAHUIS: Oldest daughter. INTERVIEWER: Okay, so, how’d you guys want to start this? Okay, so where were you born exactly? GRAHUIS: I was born in Haren, Groningen. Groningen is the northern part of Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. Very cool. GRAHUIS: And my husband was born in Amsterdam. INTERVIEWER: Oh. How do you spell Groningen? GRAHUIS: Groningen G-r-o-n-i-n-g-e-n. Groningen. INTERVIEWER: Okay, very good. Thank you. Okay, so tell us a little about your family. GRAHUIS: My family — my mom and dad there were nine children in my family. . five boys and four girls. So yeah. Wonderful family. INTERVIEWER: Wait a second for this to go by. GRAHUIS: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And how was that experience growing up with such a large family? GRAHUIS: Real wonderful. INTERVIEWER: You liked it? GRAHUIS: Yeah, we had wonderful parents. INTERVIEWER: Are you close — were you close with your siblings? GRAHUIS: Yes. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Was it typical in that area or time to have that amount of people in a family? GRAHUIS: Yes, yeah. My dad had four brothers and they all had big families. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: We had nine kids. The other ones had, the other one had six girls — INTERVIEWER: Oh my goodness. GRAHUIS: (chucklesj and there were, was another one who had six boys. And so — INTERVIEWER: Jeez. GRAHUIS: Big! Yeah! Those — those times they all had big families. Page 5 �INTERVIEWER: Yeah, wow. It sounds like it. GRAHUIS: Yeah, yeah. We got along real well. INTERVIEWER: What did your parents do for work? What did your dad do for work? GRAHUIS: My dad had his own company, and he, with his brothers, and he selled cement and all that building materials. Yeah, it went real well. INTERVIEWER: What about your mother? Was she just a stay at home mom? GRAHUIS: My mom, ach! Yeah, my mom was a stay at home mom. INTERVIEWER: With that may kids! GRAHUIS: Washing clothes and ... yup. INTERVIEWER: What did a typical day look like for you guys? Like, in like the school year. Like, was it all different grades? Like, in the Netherlands did they have, like, a middle school and a high school where you guys were all separated up into? GRAHUIS: the school I went to the distances were so small. So we walked to school there was one road that go into, from where we were to the, the schools, the Christian school. INTERVIEWER: So it was a pretty small town? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Quite small, and *ahem*, excuse me. a lot of Dutch people. In that, time, there were a lot of people that came from different countries. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And do you remember anything about your school. GRAHUIS: Well, we had to work hard! (Laughter) INTERVIEWER: Yuuuup, I can relate to that. You said there were people from a lot of different countries so, would you say that everyone was excepting of all the different types of people that were there? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Yeah, uh-huh. And I think mostly they came from the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Yeah. So,— BALE: But mom, you said too, that your community was really tight-nit. You knew all the families. GRAHUIS: Yes. Page 6 �BALE: You had a milkman who came down the street with his horse-cart. those families. The Bucker the Baker’s man. GRAHUIS: He would go through the street with his little red INTERVIEWER: - like cart? GRAHUIS: Cart! Yup, that he pushed. Yeah, it was wonderful time we had, a wonderful time. BALE: And because your family was so big, you didn’t have a whole lot of money. GRAHUIS: Nope. BALE: And it was a home — you slept with your sisters right? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Two sisters. GRAHUIS: Yup. BALE: And it was very, and in the winter time it was very cold. I remember you telling stories of when you would wake up in the morning and ice would be on your sheets. That’s how cold it was. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: Wow! BALE: And you slept together to keep warm. GRAHUIS: To keep warm. BALE: And you didn’t have very many clothes. GRAHUIS: That’s right. BALE: And, I was just asking her on the way over here. Did you wear wooden shoes when you were growing up? And she did. She wore wooden shoes all through elementary school. She said, I said, so how do your feet keep warm. She said they had leather slippers that they would put inside their wooden shoes and they would walk. GRAHUIS: Socks of course. BALE: And they would walk through the snow and snow would accumulate on their wooden shoes. INTERVIEWER: Oh my gosh, wow. Kind of like ice skating. Exactly. BALE: And she said when she got to be about, what? Maybe ten. You got your first pair of leather shoes. That was a big deal. Page 7 �GRAHUIS: Oh yeah! We were so proud! We could go to church with our leather shoes we would just walk in the neighborhood and just look at it. Just look at it! INTERVIEWER: Ah, that’s great. Yeah, what about — GRAHUIS: I have such wonderful memories of my youth. INTERVIEWER: Tell us some of those memories. GRAHUIS: Huh? INTERVIEWER: Tell us some of your favorite memories. If you have any. GRAHUIS: (chuckles) Favorite — favorite memories! There was a lot of— there was a lot of land there. So, grass and ditches and we would have a long pole and jump across those ditches and guess what? We would fall in! So beautiful. BALE: So when the canals froze over — INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. Skating! BALE: Yeah, skating for miles and miles. GRAHUIS: Oh yes, we skated for miles — INTERVIEWER: So fun GRAHUIS: That’s, oh that was wonderful. Wonderful. And we had, we had lanterns and we lived, my family lived on, the haven ... haven ... how do you say haven? BALE: Like a little lake. Like a little pond or a little lake. GRAHUIS: Where the boats would come in. INTERVIEWER: Okay, did you live — BALE: Like a harbor! GRAHUIS: Harbor. INTERVIEWER: Did you live — BALE: Like a harbor. INTERVIEWER: - near the ocean? GRAHUIS: Huh? INTERVIEWER: Did you live near the ocean? GRAHUIS: No, no. Page 8 �INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Opa did. Opa is grandpa. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: And I’m oma. INTERVIEWER: (chuckles) Yup, my oma. I’ve heard you call her that a couple times. Yeah, they were confused when I said that the first time! They were like, What does that mean?” (Laughter) GRAHUIS: (laughing) Yeah! BALE: Yeah, so you lived on the harbor. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Yeah. GRAHUIS: And then my dad, my dad would, put us on his back, and we would tie our skates on then we could go on his back and he would drop us off on the harbor. There was ice — well, of course there was ice, otherwise he wouldn’t throw us in! And then at night they would put the lights on these... we call it. INTERVIEWER: Like the lamps? GRAHUIS: Yeah! Yes, yes. Otherwise we would break our neck. But then we would skate from the harbor to the canal. We would have to go under bridges. INTERVIEWER: Did you ever have races? GRAHUIS: What? INTERVIEWER: Did you ever have races on the canals? Like skating races? GRAHUIS: Not that much on the canals. But there were also lakes and that is where they mostly had the races INTERVIEWER: Now I know Opa was quite a big sailor. Did you sail at all when you were growing up? Like, did you go out on the water in boats? GRAHUIS: My husband? INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I know Opa was a big sailor but did you do any sailing or fishing out on the water? GRAHUIS: Fishing! Oh we did a lot of fishing. INTERVIEWER: When did you meet your husband? GRAHUIS: I met my husband in the sixties? No fifties Page 9 �INTERVIEWER: Ok so quite a bit after your childhood. And did you meet him there or when you came to the United States? GRAHUIS: No I met him here. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow! GRAHUIS: Yeah, I met him in church. He saw me sitting in church. Because I had and aunt and uncle that were in Kalamazoo, they immigrated to Kalamazoo, and they had ten kids. So I would go to church with them. And then Hank, my husbands name is Hank, his, let me see, where am I? Oh Yes, they were members of the same church. It was a Christian reformed church in Kalamazoo. I was living in the YWCA. So he found that out and then that sunday night after church, I was in my room and somebody said,” Somebody is here for you”. So I said “Okay”. I had no idea that it was him. So there was Hank INTERVIEWER: Wow, was it love at first sight? GRAHUIS: Yeah, so that is how we met. BALE: But to put a big picture on it, my dad had a family often right? GRAHUIS: Eight. BALE: Yeah, eight kids. But ten all together. They immigrated when he was sixteen. He was sixteen. GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: So they came over on a big boat, when he was sixteen. And then my mom immigrated when she was twenty five and she came with her brother here to America. GRAHUIS: Yes, my brother was a year younger than I am. BALE: Right. So dad was here already in kalamazoo. GRAHUIS: Yes but I also had uncle John, my brother John, was living here already. And my sister Evelin. They were living here. So we came here from the Netherlands, visiting them. We could stay with them in their home. It was quite something. I was a little homesick at first but thats it. INTERVIEWER: What made up your mind about moving here? What was your motivation for moving here? GRAHUIS: I wanted to see what the United States was like. INTERVIEWER: How old were you when you moved? GRAHUIS: Twenty two. INTERVIEWER: Twenty two? GRAHUIS: I was twenty two years old when I came here. Page 10 �INTERVIEWER: What did you imagine it would be like? GRAHUIS: . INTERVIEWER: Better than It actually was? GRAHUIS: Yeah, I love this country. I am so glad I came here. Of coarse I met my husband here. INTERVIEWER: Did you come over on a boat? GRAHUIS: I flew. INTERVIEWER: Okay cool. GRAHUIS: And my dad paid for the ticket. INTERVIEWER: Oh so You didn’t go with your family? GRAHUIS: Yes my brother. I was twenty two. BALE: Was that Clause? GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: And John was here already. GRAHUIS: Yes, John was here. John was married. And Eveline was here. BALE: Okay, so two siblings were here and you came over with another brother. GRAHUIS: Yep. BALE: So thats four of the nine kids came over to the states. GRAHUIS: And my mom was very sad that so many came to the united states. BALE: Are the other five still there? GRAHUIS: Yeah they have been here but they would rather stay in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Okay, so what else do you remember from the time you were ten years old to the time you were twenty two? Like when exactly was the nazi occupation? GRAHUIS: Oh I was afraid you were going to say something about that. It was in the forties. INTERVIEWER: How old were you when that happened? GRAHUIS: I was In my thirties. I was thirty eight when it was over. BALE: No, how old where you when the war was going on? You were young. GRAHUIS: Well I was born in 1937. Page 11 �BALE: Ok so you were young. You were six. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember anything about that? Do you remember your lifestyle changing? GRAHUIS: Yes, yes. Because we were living in a home and right next to us was a garage where all the germans were in. And so when all the Americans or the English came over, they would shoot at that garage. But also, we were also bombarded because our home was so close to that garage. So if my brother had stayed that night, we were eating supper, my dad was in church work and so he was not home, my mom was only there with all the kids, and if he would have stayed in that chair he would have been killed. Because the bullet went right through the seat. BALE: So did you here the sirens or did you hear the plans come in? GRAHUIS: We heard the plans come in. BALE: So what they did is they went down into the cellar. Everybody left the table and went into the cellar. GRAHUIS: Yes, I fell into the potato salad. Thats why I have such a potato head. INTERVIEWER: So it seems that you were living in fear for a while then, right? GRAHUIS: Yes, we were. INTERVIEWER: And how long did that go on? GRAHUIS: I think it started in forty two and in forty five it was over. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember your diet changing or your lifestyle changing because you didn’t have enough money? GRAHUIS: Well food was hard to get. INTERVIEWER: I remember you saying something about rations. Did you guys have to do that at all? GRAHUIS: Oh yes, definitely. And we had a big family so would have a lot of sugar and there were some families that could not get it. So we would exchange sugar for what they had. Potatoes or whatever. So that was quite a life. INTERVIEWER: But it sounds like money wasn’t, I mean its a struggle without money, but it sounds like it wasn’t really an issue. Like you say you still loved your memories of growing up and everything. GRAHUIS: Yes, I did. INTERVIEWER: So you still had fun even though the Nazis were around. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and I heard how with the bikes they would take the tires. Did that happen to you guys? Page 12 �GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. INTERVIEWER: Why did they do that? GRAHUIS: because they could use the rubber. They were rubber tires and they could use it. INTERVIEWER: So they took it right off your bikes to use it? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Wow. So you had to clatter around on metal wheels for a while? GRAHUIS: Yeah exactly. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember, I mean obviously there was a war going on, but were there any tragedies that hit close to home or to you with friends or anything? GRAHUIS: Yes. Friends, their fathers were transported someplace else. I had a friend and her father was a doctor and he was killed. And of coarse the jews, we had jews in our town. They were picked up. INTERVIEWER: Did you know anyone that was helping them at all? GRAHUIS: Yes, Hanks father was a police man so he hid a lot ofjewish people. INTERVIEWER: That’s really cool. Did he ever get caught? GRAHUIS: No, he did not get caught. And Hank would, on his bike, go to the farmers and pick up milk for the family. INTERVIEWER: What were the nazi soldiers like? Where they mean or did they trouble you guys at all? GRAHUIS: I can not remember much of that. INTERVIEWER: Okay, what did you do for fun around that time? In your free time with your friends and stuff? I know you had a tight knit community and stuff, what did you guys do for fun? GRAHUIS: A lot of things. A lot of little things. INTERVIEWER: Did you guys have any sports you liked to play? I know Opa enjoyed playing soccer. GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Did you guys have anything like that or did you guys just do little hangouts and stuff? GRAHUIS: Bicycling, and of coarse in the winter skating. INTERVIEWER: And did you guys, I don not know if this is like an American thing but did you guys have like snowball fights and build snowmen? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. Page 13 �INTERVIEWER: Okay, I guess a worldwide thing. GRAHUIS: Yep when you have snow you make a snowman. INTERVIEWER: What about Christmas time? Did you have any traditions you used to do? Like, I know you used to put shoes by the door or something like that? GRAHUIS: Yeah I put something in it. Yep we sure did. INTERVIEWER: Now around Christmas time did you have your relatives come over or was it just your family? BALE: What was Christmas like? Christmas day. GRAHUIS: Oh we would decorate the whole room and it was nice. BALE: Did you exchange presents? GRAHUIS: Yes we did. Little gifts. very little gifts because we did not have much money as kids because we did not work. INTERVIEWER: No ipods? GRAHUIS: Nope. INTERVIEWER: Where there any traditions you brought from to the United States from back in the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: Our Dutch cooking. Stumput. INTERVIEWER: What is that? I have never heard of it. GRAHUIS: You put potatoes, you cook potatoes and carrots and you mash them all up. The kids love it. BALE: Potatoes, carrots, onions. GRAHUIS: And onions. INTERVIEWER: Where did that meal come from? Do you remember how it originated into the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: No, i think its more a dutch meal. Interviewer. Okay, because I remember someone, i do not remember who it was, told me that, when they did not have a lot of ingredients and stuff during the war and they had just potatoes, onions and carrots, they were like lets just throw it all into a pot, mash it up and see what come out. And that was stumpot. And Tm glad they did. Its really good. BALE: So your diet was mainly potatoes. very little meat because meat was expensive. GRAHUIS: Oh yeah, we did not eat much meat at all. It as very expensive. BALE: And then the fish. Page 14 �GRAHUIS: fish yeah. BALE: Yes, and dutch cheese. INTERVIEWER: Now did you ever go on to college? Helen: No I did not go to college. I went to high school. INTERVIEWER: Okay, do you have any specific memories from your hight school? GRAHUIS: Yeah we had some things that we did together as a class. We did everything on bicycles. We would go swimming and it was quite a ways away. And we did a lot of biking. So one those days you did not see very many people. INTERVIEWER: And what about jobs? Did you get ajob when you graduated high school? GRAHUIS: No. I did not work. BALE: But you did say you had ajob in Haden that you had to bike to. And that was after hight school. You were in your twenties. Didm’t you have a secretarial job? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. When I was older. BALE: Before you immigrated over. What was that job? GRAHUIS: Ill have to think, what did I do? I worked at an office. INTERVIEWER: Okay BALE: You worked there everyday. Haden was how far from Cronighan? INTERVIEWER: What is that? GRAHUIS: Stumput. INTERVIEWER: I’ve never heard of that. INTERVIEWER: Me Either. GRAHUIS: You have potatoes. You cook potatoes, and carrots, and-uh then you mash them all up. INTERVIEWER: Ooo INTERVIEWER: That sounds good. GRAHUIS: And- the kids love it. BALE: And onions. Potatoes, carrots and onions. GRAHUIS: And onions. Page 15 �INTERVIEWER: And where did that meal come from, like, where did that meal come from? Do you remember, like, how it originated in the Netherlands? (Pause) INTERVIEWER: Okay GRAHUIS: I think its more Dutch. The DutchINTERVIEWER: Okay because I remember someone, I don’t remember who it was, told me that they didn’t, when they didn’t have, like a lot of ingredients and stuff during the war, like and they had just potatoes, onions, and carrots, they were like lets throw it all into a pot, mash it up, and see what comes out. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Uh-huh INTERVIEWER: So they had stumput, GRAHUIS: Uh-huh BALE: Yeah INTERVIEWER: And I’m glad they did. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: It’s really good! GRAHUIS: Uh-huh BALE: So your diet was mainly potatoes, very little meat because meat was expensive. GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. We didn’t eat much meat at all. (Pause) It was very expensive. INTERVIEWER: Um-hm BALE: And the fish. GRAHUIS: Fish. Yeah. BALE: And cheese. GRAHUIS: And cheese. That’s cheese. INTERVIEWER: Um-hm. (Pause) Now did you go to college? GRAHUIS: No. I did not go to college. I went to high school. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-.huh. INTERVIEWER: Do you have any specific memories from your high school? GRAHUIS: Yeah. We had some things that we did together as a class. Page 16 �INTERVIEWER: Mmm GRAHUIS: we would We did everything on bicycles. INTERVIEWER: Mmmmmm GRAHUIS: . We would go to go swimming, andINTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: . It was quite a ways away, and, yeah. We did a lot of a lot of biking, biking. INTERVIEWER: Mm GRAHUIS: Yeah. So in those days you didn’t see very many big people. BALE: (Laugh) INTERVIEWER: Yeah! (Laugh) And what about jobs? Did you get a job when you graduated high school? GRAHUIS: No. I did not work. BALE: But you did say you had a job. In, GRAHUIS: Holland. BALE: that you had to bike to. When, that was after high school though. When you were in your twenties. (Pause) Didn’t you have a secretarial job or ajob that you, I remember you saying that you GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. When I was older. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Yeah. Before you immigrated over. INTERVIEWER: Before you immigrated. Yeah. That’s, yeah. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: What was that job? GRAHUIS: let me think what did I do? (Pause) I worked at an office. INTERVIEWER: Okay BALE: Yup. You’d bike there everyday. GRAHUIS: Um-hm BALE: Howden was how far from Kronian (32:14)? GRAHUIS: five kilometers. Page 17 �BALE: Okay. INTERVIEWER: Hm, Okay. GRAHUIS: And I would go there in the morning, and then for lunch I would come home, and then at one o’clock I would go back. INTERVIEWER: Oh, wow. GRAHUIS: So, it’s a lot of biking. INTERVIEWER: That is a lot. Yeah. A couple miles in everyday. BALE: And you lived at home? GRAHUIS: I lived at home. Yeah. BALE: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And your family got along pretty well together, all of you kids? GRAHUIS: Eh, yeah. Hey, when you’re kids you have to fight once and a while. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I know what that’s like. BALE: I remember GRAHUIS: We’re not perfect. BALE: Yeah. I remember you recently telling me this too that your grandfather lived with you. Your grandfather lived with you. INTERVIEWER: Oh. GRAHUIS: My Mom’s father. BALE: Right, and he didn’t have his own room cuz there were no rooms left over. He would sleep in the, on the couch. GRAHUIS: Yeah on the couch. BALE: On the couch in the dinning room, living room. GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: Okay, and that just, he was part of the family. GRAHUIS: Yeah. That’s where he died. BALE: And that’s where he died. GRAHUIS: Yup. Page 18 �BALE: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yup. Um-hm. That’s right. (Pause) Yup. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember anything about the churches in the Netherlands, like the church you went to? GRAHUIS: Well they’re not like here. Um, in those days we didn’t have our groups INTERVIEWER: Like bible study and? GRAHUIS: Yes. Exactly. Um-hm. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: So it was more for the older people. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Do they have an organ in the church? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. Beautiful organ. BALE: Beautiful organ. GRAHUIS: Um-hm. BALE: Yup. INTERVIEWER: That’s cool. Now about your immigration, do you guys have any other questions about Holland? INTERVIEWER: No. I think we’ve heard a lot. INTERVIEWER: Okay was it uncommon for people to rnove to the United States in the Netherlands, or was it pretty common for people to just head over here? GRAHUIS: It was, yeah. There was a certain time period where a lot of people came to the United States. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Or Canada. INTERVIEWER: Or Canada. INTERVIEWER: And was it just because they wanted to, or was there a reason they were leaving the Netherlands? Page 19 �GRAHUIS: it was, (Pause) it was well, we have big families. You know? Like my aunt and uncle. They immigrated because it wasn’t (Pause) they could feed them here. INTERVIEWER: So a better life? GRAHUIS: Yeah. A better life. INTERVIEWER: Opportunities. GRAHUIS: A much better life especially also going to school. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. GRAHUIS: . They would go to college here or- . So, (Pause) yup. A lot of big families immigrated. Yup. This is a great country. INTERVIEWER: Now, when you came to the U.S. so you boarded a plane from the Netherlands, and where did you... GRAHUIS: Amsterdam. Yup. INTERVIEWER: From Amsterdam. Where did you arrive? Where was your destination in the U.S.? Did you land in like New York or (Pause) where did you land on the flight? GRAHUIS: I think we landed where did we go to? BALE: Probably Chicago. GRAHUIS: Oh! Oh no. Detroit yeah, Detroit. INTERVIEWER: Was your intention always to come to Michigan? GRAHUIS: Yeah because I had a sister and a brother here. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. GRAHUIS: Um-hm. INTERVIEWER: So where did you go? Where did you start living When you got to the U.S.? GRAHUIS: Michigan. INTERVIEWER: Michigan. Like where INTERVIEWER: What city? INTERVIEWER: Like Kalamazoo or? GRAHUIS: Kalamazoo. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and that was, you lived with your brother then? Page 20 �GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: John and Ida. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What was that like? GRAHUIS: John was my oldest brother. INTERVIEWER: Like did you find ajob right away or did you just? GRAHUIS: I also worked here in an office. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-huh, and when did I start driving school bus? BALE: That was way later. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah that was way later. BALE: Didn’t you work at a department store? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: In like, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Didn’t you even model some cloths? Did you model some cloths or? GRAHUIS: Yeah I did. I did. BALE: We should have brought a picture of it. INTERVIEWER: Yeah! I would have loved to see those! BALE: You were very nice looking. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Yeah BALE: Oh well. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: We don’t need to talk about that. (Laugh) Stop. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: So then, was it quite recent after you moved to the U.S. that you met Opa? Page 21 �GRAHUIS: Yes. Uh-huh. Yup. INTERVIEWER: Okay. So was that like a few years after afterwards or? GRAHUIS: He was, oh gosh, he was in, he was in the military? (Pause) Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: I was, let’s see now. Opa was twenty-five when I, when we married, and I was twenty-four. No. He was twenty-four; I was twenty-five. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: So INTERVIEWER: Oh. So you met each other and you got married quite soon after that then. GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-huh. INTERVIEWER: So love at first sight kind of thing? GRAHUIS: Yup. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Right when you walked up to the door? (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: so after you got married what did you guys do after that, like did you move somewhere, or did you get a house. GRAHUIS: Yeah. We got a house, and we had a house full of kids. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Okay. Tell us about that. INTERVIEWER: How many kids do you have? GRAHUIS: Three daughters. INTERVIEWER: Three daughters? GRAHUIS: -him. Monique is the oldest, and then we have Michelle, a year later, and then we have Melissa. BALE: A year later. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Wow! GRAHUIS: So Melissa lives in Australia. Page 22 �INTERVIEWER: Wow. GRAHUIS: And she’s coming here with her husband and their two children in a couple weeks. Right? INTERVIEWER: Mrnm. Yup. I’m looking forward to that. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: To visit or to move? GRAHUIS: To visit. INTERVIEWER: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And what about that family experience? How did that differ from your family experience in the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: I don’t know. What do you mean with that? INTERVIEWER: Well, I mean just, what was your family experience like here I guess? Did you INTERVIEWER: With your husband and your children. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: How did it differ from how you grew up in the Netherlands? INTERVIEWER: Did you have a better lifestyle here would you say or? BALE: Did you have a better lifestyle here? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Definitely. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Oh definitely. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS:huh. Yeah. Yup. INTERVIEWER: And was it ever, I mean, hard with money and anything or? GRAHUIS: No. My husband had a very good job. He went to the Kalamazoo college there. INTERVIEWER: Oh. Yeah. BALE: It’s Western Michigan. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. Page 23 �GRAHUIS: Yeah, and then he got his masters degree in Illinois, Northern Illinois University, and yeah. He had a good job. We had a good life. Yeah, and then Melissa went to Calvin right? INTERVIEWER: Calvin. Oh Yeah. BALE: Um-hrn. GRAHUIS: And you went to Calvin. BALE: Um-hm. GRAHUIS: And Michelle went to Farry, Farris. Farris! BALE: Um-hm. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: So, did you, so you got married, and you lived in Kalamazoo GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: For a few years. Did you live there, now how long did you live in Kalamazoo? GRAHUIS: How long did we live in Kalamazoo INTERVIEWER: Like was it a long time, like did you have all three of your daughters in Kalamazoo? GRAHUIS: No. They were born in Chicago. INTERVIEWER: Okay. INTERVIEWER: Oh really? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Oh we moved all over the place. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. INTERVIEWER: Tell us a little bit about that, like where did you guys, what were the different places you guys lived? GRAHUIS: Okay. That’s up to her. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: She knows better. BALE: So you lived in Michigan for a little bit after you were married. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: And then you moved down to Chicago, where Dad got his masters, and then you started having us. We lived in Chicago for, I remember, about five years ‘cuz when I was kindergarten age we moved back up to Grand Haven, Michigan. Page 24 �INTERVIEWER: Oh. Okay. BALE: And that’s where we settled for, probably until I was in junior high, high school. GRAHUIS: -him BALE: So that’s where we started school, all three of us, and lived in Grand Haven. Yeah, and then we we lived in Grand Haven, and-uh we lived not too far from your sister, Evelyn, and another brother, Klaus, and another brother, John. So all three of the families, all four of the families were in Grand Haven. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: And we were very close with the families. We all grew up together. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Lots of cousins. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: And that was good. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: That was a very good, good growing up. INTERVIEWER: A good few years? BALE: Yup, and when we got together we... everybody would be speaking Dutch. It was all, everything was in Dutch, and our INTERVIEWER: You too Mom? INTERVIEWER: So yeah. You know Dutch as well? BALE: Well I can understand it. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. I didn’t know that. BALE: Yeah we can understand it. GRAHUIS: Melissa’s good at it. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: We didn’t necessarily converse or speak, but it was all Dutch, and Dutch food. during the holidays, our Christrnas especially, we would always look forward to... they make like a specialty. Yeah a Dutch specialty is oliebollen. So it’s INTERVIEWER: Oliebollen, mmrnmm. Page 25 �BALE: Kind of a daylong process of making the dough and rising the the yeast rising it GRAHUIS: Yup. BALE: And it was all made out in the garage. It was GRAHUIS: So you don’t get all that smell in your home. BALE: Yup, and this is very traditional. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: So we would have oliebollen. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. So you guys took home some traditions from back there? BALE: Oh yeah! GRAHUIS: You Dutch. You know that. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I know a lot about the food and stuff, but, and I love the food, but I haven’t heard of that before. I’ve never heard of that before, so. BALE: Oh oliebollen? INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I’ve never heard of that. BALE: Oh very traditional. INTERVIEWER: It’s good. It’s good too. GRAHUIS: Yeah. You fry them in oil. You have a pan full of oil, and you dump the stuff INTERVIEWER: The dough. GRAHUIS: Yeah, the dough. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Now did you, is that when you had your school bus job? GRAHUIS: When did I start INTERVIEWER: In Grand Haven. BALE: You started driving school oh boy. That wasn’t in Georgia. I would say GRAHUIS: No that was in Kalama, in- that was in Grand Haven. BALE: In Grand Haven. Page 26 �GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: Okay. GRAHUIS:huh. INTERVIEWER: When was GRAHUIS: And I was the best bus driver. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: In Grand Haven. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Yeah. The kids loved you. INTERVIEWER: I’m sure. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. GRAHUIS: Although, I could also be INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I heard you had to like, I remember you telling us storied about some of the kids on your bus, like some of them were very unruly, and GRAHUIS: Oh yah. They can be. INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah. So GRAHUIS: Children are children. INTERVIEWER: What age group did you, was it elementary, middle school? GRAHUIS: All age. INTERVIEWER: Oh all? GRAHUIS: Yup. Kindergarteners I had a kindergarten run in the afternoon, at noon, so I liked it, and now I get a little pension. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: So where did you, you said you moved to Georgia? INTERVIEWER: Yeah where does Georgia fall into this? BALE: -hrn. INTERVIEWER: What other places did you move? BALE: We were very sad about that. INTERVIEWER: After Grand Haven? Okay. Page 27 �BALE: We lived in Grand Haven for, after Chicago, five years, we lived in Grand Haven for up until I was about, I would say, tenth grade, and Michelle ninth, and Melissa eighth, and then we, so it was very hard to leave a tight nit family group. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: . INTERVIEWER: That’s a tough time to leave. BALE: Um-hm. I was pretty devastated. So Dad got ajob down in near Atlanta, which is Roswell, Georgia. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. BALE: And so we left the family up in Grand Haven. We moved down to Georgia where Dad worked for a company. We were there for two years living in the south. INTERVIEWER: Oh gees. BALE: Yeah, and then INTERVIEWER: So you graduated there. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: No. I didn’t. INTERVIEWER: Oh no? BALE: Two years later, actually a year... two years later. We lived down there for two years I think. INTERVIEWER: -hm. BALE: And then we moved up to New York. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. You guys have been all over. BALE: And we moved up to New York, and we lived there on Long Island for a year. GRAHUIS: Yup. Long Island. That’s right. INTERVIEWER: Wow. INTERVIEWER: Was this all for his work? BALE: So back up. I think GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Georgia was my ninth grade. I moved in ninth grade to Georgia. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Page 28 �BALE: Ninth and tenth. GRAHUIS: Okay. BALE: Moved up to Long Island for a year, and that was very different ‘cuz we were blonde Dutch people. INTERVIEWER: Yeah! BALE: Living in GRAHUIS: She had boyfriends all over. (Laughs) BALE: We lived in an Italian; I mean it was all Italian. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: And, so those were our friends. INTERVIEWER: Just for the interviews sake, did you guys appreciate all the diversity that was around you or did you ever feel, or was there any sense of segregation ever? Like that’s just one of the questions we were just wondering about with the interviews we’re doing. GRAHUIS: No, no. INTERVIEWER: No sense of segregation? Okay. BALE: I don’t think so. GRAHUIS: No, not at all. INTERVIEWER: Because the U.S. was a very diverse time, very diverse time back then. GRAHUIS: No, I never felt that. INTERVIEWER: And your family, you’ve always been accepting of other races and stuff? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Yeah, I mean we grew up in a very, I mean it was a very Dutch, Western Michigan, so I don’t think. INTERVIEWER: Still is. BALE: We were among our own people. There was not much in Western Michigan diverse wise. In Grand Haven, Kalamazoo, it was mainly Dutch. INTERVIEWER: What about Chicago? BALE: Chicago was a little different. I don’t, I was young so I don’t really remember. in the apartment complex, I don’t remember a whole lot of diversity there. No. Page 29 �INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: But now like Monique, for instance, adopted an American, BALE: African American. GRAHUIS: African American boy. INTERVIEWER: Sean. GRAHUIS: Sean. Sean is our, Eli’s brother. INTERVIEWER: He’s my bro. GRAHUIS: And now she’s adopting two children of Congo. And she’s getting those two children, they are sisters. And she’s getting them in May. INTERVIEWER: That’s great, that’s awesome. That’s really cool. That’s’ really exciting. BALE: So here’s 100% Dutch, 100% Dutch. GRAHUIS: The blondies and the blackies. BALE: Lots of color, lots of color in our family. So yeah, we’ve never felt segregated. INTERVIEWER: So is there any specific memories that either of you have in those three, those five places that you lived? Like because you just told us about the history, Chicago, Georgia, New York, Netherlands, and Grand Haven. Do you have any specific memories of just like, a story or anything? Can you wrap your brain around? GRAHUIS: You probably do being in school. BALE: Specific stories? GRAHUIS: Didn’t you have a little problem in the Netherlands in school? BALE: yeah, I think some of my best memories were in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Some of my best memories were there because we were in a completely different culture. I mean the Netherlands, but we were actually living in Holland. And we were old enough to travel around, so, because I was eighteen we traveled, when you’re in the Netherlands and there’s countries all around you, it’s like traveling to the next state or the next town, because I mean Belgium was, Germany was a few hours, right across the way. We would vacation, we vacationed in Italy and we went to Germany with our youth group. And for a class trip we went to London. And then GRAHUIS: So you would, oh excuse me. Then you would live with other families, didn’t you? BALE: No, not in the Netherlands, not in my high school years. Page 30 �GRAHUIS: Oh okay, oh. BALE: Yeah, so we had the freedom of travelling so it was wonderful, it was wonderful experiencing different culture in my high school years. But yeah, I think those are some of the best memories. And for a specific story, I don’t remember Eli, I’m sorry. INTERVIEWER: Maybe later you can tell me. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay so, you said you moved back to Grand Haven? BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: and then you went off to college and then I’m assuming Aunt Mitchie and Aunt Lizzie went off to college several years after that. So then when then they all left, it was just you and Opa? Now, is that about the time you got a bus driving job? Like I remember BALE: I think during our college years you were bus driving. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Mhm. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And you must have drove buses for a while then because I can still remember when you GRAHUIS: I did, I did. I drove bus for twenty years. INTERVIEWER: Oh my gosh. Wow, that’s a long time. GRAHUIS: Get up at five o’clock in the morning and I pick all those kids up at home. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. GRAHUIS: Oh, especially in the winter time. INTERVIEWER: Was it a fun job though? GRAHUIS: Oh, huh? INTERVIEWER: Was it fun? GRAHUIS: Yeah, I liked it, I enjoyed it. BALE: I think that an important thing for this interview is I a very big thing about being Dutch, and a very big thing that has, from the Dutch culture, I think ingrained in each one of the kids is being hard working and being thrifty. I think both you and dad were very hard working and you instilled that in us. And also spending wisely, being thrifty. This is all from the Dutch culture, because there was not much when you were growing up, there was not much to go around. You just made do with what you had. And you also, Page 31 �you all pulled together, you all had your chores. I remember you each having your chores. Because you had to rely on each other to do the work that had to be done. So that kind of passes on to the generations. Passing on down now to Eli. Your very hard working, aren’t you Eli? INTERVIEWER: Of course I am. So now you live in Grand Haven? GRAHUIS: I live in Grand Haven, yeah. INTERVIEWER: So what do you do now in Grand Haven, how do you spend your days? GRAHUIS: I lay on the couch. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Do you live by yourself? GRAHUIS: I live by myself, yeah. Yeah, my husband died in November ‘08. So yeah. I have, of course, I have three daughters and they moved away she lives in the U.P., Michelle lives in Saginaw, and Melissa lives in Australia. And so I don’t have very much, I have a brother John that was the first one to come here, and he lives in Kalamazoo. Then I have a brother Peter who lives in South Bend. And I have some brothers, two sisters. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And down in Kalamazoo there’s a little community of, that’s branched out from there, right? GRAHUIS: Lot’s of Dutch. INTERVIEWER: Lot’s of our family live down there still? GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: And also, when we were growing up, we took two trips; we took two family trips to the Netherlands. So we were, I think my first trip over to the Netherlands to visit Opa and Oma. which is her folks, was when I was seven, eight? So we would, we would spend, I don’t know how many weeks we were there, three weeks maybe, we would live in, we would vacation over in _____? and we would bike around in Holland and we would get to know the Dutch cousins and get to know the Dutch aunts and uncles. And it was only during those trips that we got to know our Dutch side. because otherwise we didn’t grow know them at all. INTERVIEWER: Except for the few Dutch family you had in Grand Haven? BALE: Over here, right. But our other part of the family was over in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: That was a major part of your family. You really got to experience a major part of your roots. BALE: Right, right. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. Page 32 �BALE: And our second trip, we took another trip, we took two trips, anyways those were wonderful, precious memories. INTERVIEWER: That’s really cool that you got to do that. GRAHUIS: And I took her and my middle daughter, I took them to Australia. INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah, that was recent. GRAHUIS: Last year, January, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah I can remember, just more recent years just all the times we would come to your house, like especially when the Yates were living in Cincinnati. I remember going to your house for Christmas and stuff and the whole family would be there. Go out to Penn Hill, camp in Big Rapids. Go there and yeah, I just remember going to Thanksgiving at your house and just coming down and visiting, going to church with you guys. GRAHUIS: See, those are all wonderful memories, yeah. INTERVIEWER: I remember mom, well I don’t remember you, I remember the video of you guys getting married in the backyard. That’s really fun. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What about big events like, in the news and stuff when you were in, after you moved to the U.S.. Do you remember, like, the Martin Luther King Jr. “I had a Dream” or do you remember all that stuff? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: Do you remember Kennedy being shot? GRAHUIS: Oh yes. Yes. I remember that one, because you were a baby, I was feeding you. And the radio, it said that the president had been killed. BALE: Any other big events? INTERVIEWER: Vietnam War, or? GRAHUIS: No I don’t remember much about that. BALE: Do you remember much about civil rights, mom? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: What was going on in Detroit? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: African Americans? Page 33 �GRAHUIS: I don’t, I’d have to think about it first. BALE: What music? GRAHUIS: Music? BALE: What kind of music were you INTERVIEWER: You love the organ music. BALE: Yeah, Opa was big into organ music. That was also another thing. GRAHUIS: Yeah, I love guitar music. INTERVIEWER: That’s good. GRAHUIS: That’s how he learned. INTERVIEWER: That’s one of the reasons. GRAHUIS: I have two guitars. BALE: We had an old, and this is another part of growing up Dutch, is Dad played the organ, and we had an old pump organ in our house, and he would, all the family would come over, he would pump the organ and we would all sing hymns around the organ. And that’s what we would do when we would all get together. Youd have coffee, or another big Dutch thing is drinks. INTERVIEWER: Wine. GRAHUIS: Glass of wine. BALE: Little glass of wine. GRAHUIS: Like we had last night. We don’t overdo it. Oh no, just a little bit. BALE: We would play the pump organ and we would all sing around the pump organ. People don’t do that anymore. INTERVIEWER: It’s kind of like the American the American idea of singing around the campfire with a guitar and stuff. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah GRAHUIS: Where’s my purse. I need to take my medication. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, my grandma really likes to do that, get around the piano or something and sing songs and stuff. BALE: Oh really? Page 34 �INTERVIEWER: Is your grandma Dutch? Yeah she is. Yeah. BALE: I think that was a big thing with the Dutch is that, and that’s what you did growing up, is that after church, you would go to either your uncles or your aunts and you would all get together for coffee. GRAHUIS: Yeah, we did. BALE: And we’d always have we’d always talk and you’d have cookies and yeah, just gathering and hanging out. INTERVIEWER: Exactly. BALE: And no computers. GRAHUIS: No, no computers. BALE: And the cousins would play together. GRAHUIS: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, good times. INTERVIEWER: Good food and good company. I said good food and good company. That’s great. GRAHUIS: Yeah. So, we should not forget that I have to go to my bible study. BALE: Yeah, she has a gathering to get to. INTERVIEWER: What time? It’s okay. BALE: Six o’clock I have to be at a restaurant. INTERVIEWER: Okay. We’ll make sure, we’ll make sure. Is there anything else you remember from, anything else, anything you want to share, about anything? Anything you want to be written about? Like we’re going to be writing a paper on this. Is there anything you want us to acknowledge? GRAHUIS: . BALE: Can I say something? I remember a very important event which I was able to go with you, was when I was at Calvin, I think it was at Calvin. or I was living in Grand Rapids going to school and you wanted to become a U.S. citizen. So I went down to, down to the courthouse, or I don’t remember, it was in Grand Rapids somewhere, and we went into a big room with many other folks from all different countries. We sat there, we went, we sat through an entire ceremony, and all the flags were represented, and then you receive your American citizenship. That was a really cool time. And you had to say the Pledge of Allegiance. It was really awesome. INTERVIEWER: Did your dad do that too? BALE: He did, but earlier. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Page 35 �BALE: I wasn’t around when dad became a citizen. GRAHUIS: No, dad went into the military. That’s, automatically how you become a citizen. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay, that makes sense. BALE: I also remember you did not graduate from, you never received your diploma from the Netherlands from high school. GRAHUIS: I got it when I came here. BALE: She went into America, you got your GED, you had to study, you had to take a test to get your high school diploma. I don’t know why you never graduated. INTERVIEWER: When did you get your diploma in high school? Were you alive, Mom? BALE: Oh yeah. Oh, I remember mom, I was in, I think I was in junior high or high school. I was in, yeah, you were studying for your GED because you wanted to graduate. INTERVIEWER: But you still had jobs and everything, you know? The difference between now and then. Now you have to go to college to get a job. It’s crazy. How was learning English? Was that difficult? GRAHUIS: Yeah, well I learned that in high school. We take, we learned. BALE: In the Netherlands. GRAHUIS: Yeah, we take German, French, English. All those. BALE: Italian? GRAHUIS: No, not Italian. BALE: Oh I thought you did. INTERVIEWER: So you know them all? GRAHUIS: Well French I don’t, I never kept up. I know German. I know of course English and Dutch. All those languages I studied. INTERVIEWER: That makes sense. So by the time you came to America, you were fluent in English? GRAHUIS: Well, I can’t say fluent. I did my best. INTERVIEWER: You could understand, Okay. Well that’s cool. GRAHUIS: When I came to this country I was living with my sister, and they would they would listen to the radio orthings I didn’t understand, hut you learn. INTERVIEWER: You put yourself in the environment and you kind of learn how it is. GRAHUIS: Yeah, yeah. Page 36 �INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. I think that’s good. Is there anything else you want to share? GRAHUIS: Not that I know of. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: We’ll have another meeting sometime. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. That’s the interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 37 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b10abc3d867c92b3a07cd428e0fe1569.mp3 2dd12b6b79bfc5f986c60c3971c2204d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Grahuis_Helen Title A name given to the resource Helen Grahuis audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grahuis, Helen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cohen, Alissa Frazer, Hannah Byker, Bryce Bale, Eli Description An account of the resource Helen Grahius was born and raised in Haren, Groningen, Netherlands. Later in life, she moved to West Michigan to be with her siblings. She discusses her life in the Netherlands and in the United States. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/06daf1c677eb3e3a4938ded815fb5fdf.pdf bd37c91983eff174cd80762af392dc3e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Gamal Gasim Interviewers: Gagan Singh Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/23/2012 Biography and Description Gamal Gasim, assistant professor of Middle East Studies and Political Science, earned his PhD in political science from Texas Tech. He teaches Introduction to Middle East Studies, Middle East politics, and comparative politics. Before Grand Valley, he taught at Texas Tech, University of Wisconsin-Madison during the summers of 2006 and 2007, and at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Beloit College during the summers of 2008 and 2009 respectively. He discusses how people who do not know anything about Islam or Muslims discriminate against them, and how the media plays a negative role in society in America. Transcript GAGAN: So. Well first of all I would like to know some basic information about you. Like, where you’re from... GASIM: Yemen, I’m from Yemen. But, I was born and raised in Sudan. GAGAN: Ok. GASIM: Then I moved back to Yemen. I spend all of my vacations in Sudan. And then, when I finished my undergraduate and ....Do you want to close the door so...(A LOT OF BACKGROUND NOISE) So, I was raised in Sudan I received all of my education until I finished my undergraduate at the University of Hartford (??), went back to Yemen and then I went to Malaysia and did my first Master’s degree there in Malaysia. I went back to Yemen and I work- I worked two years, then I came back, I came, to the U.S. I did my second Master’s degree and my Doctorate and I joined Grand Valley almost three years ago. GAGAN: Oh, so right after you finished yourGASIM: Yes, yes. Actually before I finished, one year before I finished. GAGAN: Oh okay. GASIM: I finished in 2010, and I joined Grand Valley in 2009. Page 1 �GAGAN: Okay. GASIM: As assistant professor (LISTEN TO AGAIN @ 1:10) Silence GAGAN: So, where did you say you did your doctorate? GASIM: Texas. Texas Tech. GAGAN: Texas? Oh, okay. So then you moved to Michigan right after? GASIM: My Master’s was in Kansas and then I moved to Texas and then I came to Michigan. GAGAN: Oh, yes. You’ve been travelling all over. GASIM: Yeah, and I also work in Wisconsin and I work in Illinois during the summer. University of Wisconsin- Madison, University of (???) College of (??) in Wisconsin and University of Illinois- UrbanaChampaign. I taught two years here and two years there and during the summers. GAGAN: What do you do at the Madison, the school of Madison? Kansas? School of Madison? GASIM: Kansas University has a school of (Medicine/Madison??). Kansas State, Kansas State University, they don’t have a School of Medicine GAGAN: Oh okay. Pause So I’d like to know, like, since this is a diversity class and our interview is based on that, my topic I chose is like, after 9/11, and actually even before, like the differences. I’ve noticed. But, I would like to know, like, what you have noticed. GASIM: Since I came here after September 11, immediately. In, I think, 2002. On a personal level, all my life in America on academic campuses and universities. Dealing with highly educated people. So, I don’t see it really that much personal. I...maybe sometimes a few things outside, but not that much. In the beginning, I see tight security screaming for us in the airports and stuff like that. Now, in the last 3 or 4 years, I don’t know if they removed me from the list or not but I don’t see it that much. I don’t see it that much. So. Personal. But yes, of course. ...especially in Arabian/Muslim American communities they feel that now that they became, they moved from what we call, they were like...before September 11 they were invisible. Like many other minorities. Okay? ...American eyes and very invisible in the public discourse. They were invisible in discussions and suddenly they moved from this invisibility to hypervisibility. And they came to be regarded as the ‘other’. GAGAN: They stuck out, like right after that. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: They started noticing- Page 2 �GASIM: Yes, yes. GAGAN: “Oh they’re brown. They’re not Americans”. GASIM: (Not sure what he’s saying) And other groups too. Like Muslims, being considered to be..(Can’t figure this part out) GAGAN: Yeah, like seek(??)...yeah, seeks(??). Yeah, that’s who I am. And I’ve noticed, like we don’t wear turbans, but my dad’s friends wear turbans. So, because they wear turbans they thought they were Muslims. GASIM: Some of them think that, unfortunately. Because... GAGAN: Yeah, but it isn’t right, even if they were Muslims. GASIM: Yes, yes. GAGAN: Wearing, they… GASIM: But, I think this is like guilded by far association, like, because of the resemblance of the Taliban’s, or something like that. And it’s just also the ignorance of people sometimes. GAGAN: Yeah. Silence And I’ve noticed that, too, myself. That sometimes, if you-if people know about you, if you have close friends, they know about you. They’re more, what? Educated. GASIM: Yes! GAGAN: But, if there’s people who don’t have like Muslim friends, Indian friends, seek (?) friends...they won’t know the difference. GASIM: Absolutely. And studies showed that those who are Muslim have more federal views about Salam (?) and Muslim GAGAN: Yeah. GASIM: (…) than those who don’t have friends, yes. (...) GAGAN: Yeah, I was reading, or it was a, news? Or a show on-in PR, and they were talking about after 9/11 how Muslims were being treated. But, people that had friends, like white people who had friMuslim friends, they favorited them. They thought they were the nicest people. But, people that didn’t know anything about Islam or Muslim people, they basically hated them. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: They thought they were ‘bad’. Page 3 �GASIM: Yes. Absolutely. GAGAN: So, they’re not educated about… GASIM: Yes. Silence GAGAN: What else do you feel like could change, should be changed or how can people be educated more? GASIM: America has this long tradition of isolationism. Ok? And I think it’s so deep rooted in the culture. For example, I teach classes about issues in political politics. And the first of the semester what I do, I always show pictures or photos of Kim Kardashian and I let the class talk about her. They know almost everything about her. And then another picture of Lindsay Lohan, and then a, Snooki, and I let the class talk like 15 minutes about these 3 people. they know almost who their husbands, boyfriends, what they do, when they went to jail, all this kind of information. And then I will show a picture of the British Prime Minister. GAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: And nobody knows anything about him. GAGAN: Yeah. GASIM: So, basically, America’s for a long time been isolated here, even until of course September 11 happened and all (…) like, Bill Harper or like that, then they think that, okay well what happened in maybe Afghanistan or the Middle East might affect them here, too. So, that’s a big issue. Hopefully, education might help a little bit. This is why schools like Grand Valley requires you to take courses like yours. Diversity, global diversity, in order to educate the students about understanding diversity and other cultures. So, that is, that is, helpfulness of education. building more programs like this would help. the media, I’m not sure. I’m not sure that that could help. But, the U.S in general, moves toward more, I mean after…the demographic make-up in the country is going to be- change in the coming 50 years or 40 years. So that might force people to basically stand out and come to close contact with different ethnic groups. I mean in the long run. Maybe I’m optimistic. Brief silence GAGAN: But do you like, you mentioned, the media. You said that won’t help much. Why do you feel that? GASIM: the medi—the role of the media, I mean what they, I mean. Deep sigh I don’t know. I mean, of course, sometimes the media can play a role in what you call the normalization of certain ideologies, or the acceptance of a specific minorities life. For example, now many shows about gay couples, for example, okay? Trying to let the public at least, accept that reunion. In that area, that works very nice. (?) But, that impact would take a very long time and I don’t know if there is really, if the Page 4 �media is playing a very significant, constructive roles in this areas. I’m not sure about that. I’m not an expert in media, but this course sometimes shows the news and media outlets that focus on news and important news sometimes is not healthy. like Fox news or others and some do, some do a decent job. But, in general, (…………………) GAGAN: Have you noticed the difference between media here and media from different countries? GAGAN: Like, in the U.S, it’s just what they kind of want you to know, information. But, if you listen to BBC, they actually tell you a little more information about what’s going on in the U.S. and outside. Which sometimes, I feel that they kind of hide some stuff here. GASIM: Yeah that comes by us by omission. U.S. of course, has a long tradition of reporting about different countries and BBC has what I would consider, so far, a credible source for information for many countries. Like there is of course differences between reporting and commenting on the news ? so the BBC is doing a good job at reporting on what happened and, and, and reaching out to many people. And what they report, I don’t think they report from the British point of view. But American media tends to report from American prospective and, and basically what, what helps sometimes a political and (…..). And most of the (…) newspapers and media are controlled by conservative and reporters tend to be liberal. And like for example, some newspapers owned by conservatives, on current issues and they tend to be sometimes conservative, but in social issues they tend to be liberal because that is what most reporters are liberal. But, yes, I mean, they don’t have that, of course that long tradition like the BBC, for example. And sometimes people here like, to the right wing are so upset about, they’re disappointed about what you call the, the BBC, the PBS, for example. They think that they worry (……). So, I think that is, could be dangerous because the PBS to some extent, in my understanding is, similar to the BBC. public funded type of media. But, the BBC of course has that tradition and that respecting differences in Africa and the Middle East. And now of course we see new media coming from developing countries reversing the flow of information from North to South. Like in (...) which is challenging the Western dominance of media. Of information. GAGAN: So like, you mentioned earlier like at the airport security was a little more strict/is more strict for us, like, do you, when you go there or when you’re at the airport, do you feel like upset or angry? GASIM: No, I tend to be relaxed and smiling. Because otherwise I, I will, I fly a lot. I fly a lot when I came here for conferences. That’s like 3 or 4 times a year, at least. And, and I decided always to be smiling. These people are doing their job powerfully. And, and, and after all it’s for my safety. But, I remember that in 2002 they used to have microphones and this loud speaker. And they would always, they normally have this phrase, like they are going to select some people randomly. GAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: And always I was selected randomly. [Laughs] GASIM: So, so that was then. I think from 2002 to 2004...Things changed I think when Bush was reelected. So then before his election you see all this kind of media, terrorist alerts. And Americans were constant attack of fear, there was like another September 11 coming and this. But suddenly after he was elected again... Page 5 �GAGAN: it slowed. (??) GASIM: Yeah I mean you hear that these colors and this . And, and I remember until 2004 all this abundance...used to talk about how they are safe and no major attack...and I was wondering if Obama would say the same thing. Like now, since now 4 years since Obama is now and no major attack in the U.S. So, it is interesting to see the things. GAGAN: Yep, [haha]. So do you feel like discriminated a--at all? At that? Like... GASIM: I mean I am not sure. I, of course, it is difficult to, basically, know the intent, ? GAGAN: If they are doing their job, but the way they treat you? The way they talk sometimes? Do you feelGASIM: of course they are not like, I mean at that time. Now, it is different from 2005 to now I don’t, I don’t really see that. many times they pass out additional screening. Many times. Rarely I was stopped actually. I see sometimes worried people being chased (laughs) and-and which is, I feel sorry for them, but at the same time I’m happy that it’s not me, ? So that has changed a lot. From 2002 to 2004 and 5, it was...One time I remember in particularGAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: I miss a flight and then I have-I had a connection and I was going to a conference in New York. GAGAN: Mhmm GASIM: And in Kansas City, I remember I pass security and I was waiting and waiting because I missed my flight. And Kansas International Airport, Kansas City International Airport is not that big. So not so many people around and I think I was sitting for like 2-3 hours and suddenly a security agent came to me and asked me “Sir, I want to check your documents”. Even though I was just waiting for my flight. And if it were someone else he or she might be upset “Why?” “I’m not passing security, I already did that and I’m here waiting for my-” . And he asked me questions about where is my flight and how-why I’m waiting longer here. GAGAN: Suspecting you. GASIM: Yeah, so basically I show her my documents and I was fine. That happened to me in Kansas--the three incidents happened in Kansas City. One also, one--one time I was going from Kansas City to Manhattan where, Kansas, taking a small flight, where I did my second master. And there was a woman, American-Indian woman, from India. And she was selected and I was selected. The only, we are on a small flight, like maybe, 12 people? GAGAN: Oh and two brown people? [Laughs] GASIM: Yeah, so, she was selected and even though we came, we had already been screened from New York and we went through this process of, this screening. And we had our connection just in Kansas City, going to Manhattan. I mean there is no reason for us to, there is no security reason...it is just a Page 6 �connection! And actually in the gate there is security agents and they said from TSA and the man said, “I’m going to select people from random”. They used to test them like that. And then they choose her and they choose me. And she was extremely angry. And she threw the bag to them, like that, “You wanna take this? This is here for you”. And I was really surprised by her behavior. She’s American so she knows her rights. And I’m not American I’m (...) Anything can happen, anything can happen to me. Even though I was (...). So she was extremely angry, but I decided for a long time, by that time, not to let that affect me, as much. If I be angry. And actually, I remember the man, the security agent, he was very calm with this woman. he did not react angrily. Maybe they know that they are wrong, that what they do is wrong, but the woman has a right because there is no harm...and no need for this. GAGAN: Yeah, they shouldn’t. No need for violence. GASIM: Yeah. No need for her to be subject to screening. Cause she already passed it, she came from New York and just, in the waiting area going--taking another flight you don’t do that. That’s unheard of. GAGAN: Well, it’s kind of like you feel--don’t you feel a little weird when there’s other people already watching you and it’s only you or the Indian lady? GASIM: No, no. I mean myself—myself I...because usually if someone has a problem with me it is not my problem, it’s his problem. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: And that doesn’t make me feel bad. Ok? I mean if someone is racist to me, or makes a racist comment--I remember one time I was, during having my, when I was doing my doctorate degree at University of Texas I was going (........) my meal, my meal there. And then a homeless white woman stopped me and asked me for money. I think she was maybe drunk, alcohol or something. I don’t have cash so I say can I buy a meal for them, but I don’t have cash. And I say to her, I don’t have money for you, I’m sorry. And she asks me if I’m a terrorist. [Pauses] And I was laughing because look at she. I was a doctorate student here (laughs) I’m paying my bills, I’m contributing, I’m teaching my own classes and you are a homeless woman here and not only begging for money to use it for drugs but begging me and thinking you are better than me and you call me a terrorist. And she followed me actually, I almost feel like this woman is going to cause some trouble. And-and I wasn’t rewarded because how people can take any kind of racket. So I went there and she followed me into the Burger King and I think they are used to her because they let us in and I told the cashier, I said, just to be like, “This woman is following me”. And the woman, because I did not respond negatively to her and the way she took that like out of weakness or something because I’m so (…) I don’t want to create unnecessary problems for myself. Not because I’m afraid of her . I just told the woman that this and she really, the cashier, she was African-American and she threatened her and she said “You either leave this property or I will call the police for you”. And the woman left. Another friend of mine, we used to work in Yemen together and he came, an exchange student like me from (…) student. And he came to Missouri. And his first two days in the U.S in Missouri (laughs) and he stayed in a motel looking for apartment, the school is starting next week and then he found an address and being near an area so he was just walking looking for this place to rent and he felt like he got lost because like sometimes you are disorientated after long flights. So he asked, like in our country, you ask anybody about directions. Page 7 �So he asked a man like do this street or where this is and the man said “You just wait here and I’ll show you, just wait”. And the man went and called the cops for him. [Pauses] So the man was waiting for this guy to help him. He wasn’t (…). And the police were nearby, they came, dispatch. And when they say, they ask him and they had all his documents with him, his passport and everything. And when they realized that he was an exchange student they felt very sorry, they told him that there are some people who they are not really that smart and they were all nice to him. The man wasn’t really shocked that he was just asking about an address and then they told him the man suspected that you are a terrorist or something. So, so things like this could happen. There are many, many examples of this happening. I remember one of the very funniest and saddest examples. I was told by someone I trust very much, he told me. There was a young Muslim couple, the woman had a scarf. And one time the neighbor came, an old lady, to visit them. The man was not there, the woman welcomed that old lady. And, she asked her a very strange question, she said, “Can I check your rooms? Can I see your rooms?” Usually as a guest you don’t do that. (laughs) GAGAN: Yeah, you don’t do that. GASIM: Yeah, so she—she lets her. Which indicates a nice woman; she lets her see the rooms. And after she checks all of the rooms, the kids’ rooms, and everything, the kitchen, everything, and she said, “Actually to be honest with you, I had a vision that you and your husband hijack an airplane and crash into my house. [Pause] And I called the FBI about that”. [Laughs] GAGAN: She really called the FBI?? GASIM: Yeah, yeah. So she was so concerned about that dream and because she saw this neighbor, this Muslim couple, and the police I think or the FBI, they told her, “We don’t act on people’s dreams”. So basically and she told him she’s really worried. She’s really thinking these people are preparing something like that in their homes, building something in her dream and that they hijack an airplane and . Attack and destroy her home. So they advise her why don’t you go visit them by yourself and see? (laughs) Gamal and Gagan talking at same time, laughing GASIM: And she followed their basically advice and she came to see for herself. If, fortunately that her dream did not come true. [Laughs] GAGAN: That’s weird though. GASIM: Yes, I was told this. So, things can be to that extreme where it’s easy to label people terrorist. Page 8 �GAGAN: Yeah, people usually…My dad owns a store and once in a while we get one customer who’s, if we refuse him, refuse to sell, like if they’re already a little drunk or something, we refuse to sell. And then they actually start getting all racist, mean. And one guy was like, “You terrorists and this that”. I feel real angry. GASIM: Yes, but your father I’m sure is calm. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: Yeah, cause if you feel angry every time then you are not helping yourself. You are helping them, yes. GAGAN: Yeah, I mean. I really understand how everyone feels. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: Then I also noticed, like like most of the students, like we look at younger kids, like my age, Indian kids, Arab kids, or any other foreign kids they don’t really get in trouble here. They’ll be like, the good kids. GASIM: Yes and many (….). They—they’re from hard-working families, they came, they built their lives from scratch. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: And life, life in America for immigrants even if you are the kid because Americans don’t accept degrees from other countries. So it is very hard to see all of them, they have very impressive stories to tell about how they struggled to pay their bills and how they struggled to send their kids to college and, and their kids are hard-working kids and loyal to their families and they have these family values. So, this of course, yes. This America was built by these immigrants who are hardworking people. Yes. GAGAN: That’s what I was getting at but still that, by the color they think, oh their bad even though. the while kids are getting into trouble here, more fights and stuff but still its because they are brown, they are bad. GASIM: Yes of course we don't want to be like white kids are bad GAGAN: But we do GASIM: But I see your point that most of the immigrant kids are hard working, their parents motivate them to do well to go to better school and be a engineer and you want to be a doctor, right? GAGAN: Yeah GASIM: Do you want to be a doctor? GAGAN: Hmm yeah, I want. yeah I want to, yea that’s what I'm doing. GASIM: All my international students, all my like students coming from international background, like they want to be doctors. Some want to be in medical science, nothing them wants to be go for political Page 9 �science for media because that’s very important. If you go to hospitals, most of them are basically doctors are either foreign born or came from families, where their parents are also foreign born. GAGAN: Yup, and I have noticed that… GASIM: Yes yes, let me just check, if you don’t mind, the because I have class at three, if you don’t mind? GAGAN: No problem GASIM: If you don’t mind? (Prof. Gasim logins into his computer to check his schedule and his emails before class, as he says this the start sound of the computer could be heard also). GASIM: Oh OK. (here he says something which was very clear to hear). GAGAN: We still got some time? GASIM: I just, my class is jus like ten minutes, and I need just like aaaahhh aaahhh. GAGAN: Ten minutes? GASIM: How many questions do you have left? GAGAN: Just question about like, changes in the community you in. hmmmm GASIM: Actually I’m not in community, just fine. GAGAN: I mean.. GASIM: Not like American, living alone [hahahaha] GAGAN: Even here GASIM: Yeah hmmm GAGAN: You probably notice everyone working with you but like if you go to a grocery store or something like you were talking about the airport situation, like person infront of you is, im gonna use a White person again, and they are really nice talking to them but when its your turn, they just say ok its this much( talking about the cashier, not talking to him and just asking him to pay the total amount) GASIM: Hmmm, to be honest with you, no, its me personal. Sometimes it’s a, in some cases aaa, one time I went to the bank and I had unfortunate incident in a bank, just recently, jus a small bank I have an account, and I felt the lady there was lied to me. It is a long story, so I went out and I was really angry. Then I call, I called the a the bank and she answered, she told me she was manager. I know she wasn’t the manager, so I insisted the then I talk to the higher level headquarters nationally u know. It’s a national bank, a bank that has many branches nationwide and I told them what I need is two things, basically needed a apology from that branch because basically I feel there is discrimination and number two, I don’t want this to be happen to other persons. I know my rights and I can fight my rights but I don’t someone whos just know not much communication or have the time to follow up these things. And they really apologized, the manager of that bank called me the morning and apologized, the director of that region called me and apologized and I get a formal letter of an apology. Page 10 �GAGAN: That’s good GASIM: That is one thing sometimes here even like, one time here in department, I was here a faculty, there was a student, basically I was had to talk to her supervisor because of my accent or something I don’t know I’m the fucklty( sorry that’s how he pronounced it)I keeping let that happen. I keeping her( I did not understand what he said at this moment but it was only a sentence). I told her, I was very angry and I talk to her like I was very firm and wanted to make sure that there was nothing. Then she and another man I talk to him, he try to defend her, on a different lecture and left a message, message to the supervisor; I wanna talk to the head otherwise I going to rise this to the highest level in the school. Next morning, six o’clock in the morning, I check my voice message from home here and I found a message from da, the man in the beginning was defense about the girl, I told him look, if you still want to be defensive here, what I need is you to realize that this is wrong and to ask, to apologize for it. GAGAN: Yea GASIM: That’s what I want, I’m not hmmm if he feels that hmmm there is nothing wrong here, there is no point to continue the conversation. I’m go to fear until he realizes which side is wrong and after I said that he immediately apologized, more than once. So, you need to, because once they apologized they are wrong. GAGAN: They realized, yeah. GASIM: If they were not wrong, they would never apologize. So, that is I think, I mean this happened very few that I can tell but I feel sorry for people who were in… GAGAN: People that don’t English, cant explain or argue their side. GASIM: Yes yes, it doesn’t mean if you don’t speak English, it doesn’t me that you are not intelligent person. Sometimes, unfortunately people think that because you don’t speak their language, you are not smart or intelligent. GAGAN: Yeah yup. GASIM: And if your not cautions if you don’t speak the language, you like. Even they can make fun of you, those who don’t speak their language enough. And my life I spent my life, international student all my life. GAGAN: Yeah, you been traveling everywhere. GASIM: And always as a minority. So, I never lived as a majority [hahaha] in a place. So, that is, then you get a strong sense of what is justice, what is right and what is important. GAGAN: that’s how you become stronger. GASIM: Yes and you educate people about it, you get people like because they take us sometimes for granted. GAGAN: So, basically to end like most of this, some of discrimination is by educating everyone because lot of people that are racist, they are not educated about other people. Page 11 �GASIM: Sometimes with education, sometimes people know but they still insisted to act racist because of selfish economic interest, selfish political rights. So education is yes but you need to let people know they are wrong, you need to stand up for what is right and not just wait until it to happen to us. GAGAN: Yup GASIM: So if it happens to someone else, GAGAN: Yea we need to take a stand GASIM: Yes, I remember jus two weeks ago, I was in McDonalds. I was getting grading my papers and had my coffee. There was a homeless man, he was very nice and friendly and sometimes I talk to him. I saw him and I asked him if he if he if he wants me to buy him a lunch. And he said yea I can buy, then I went and ordered and then I left. Then they put the order in my table, they thought it was my order, so when I came he was not there, so I moved all the order in his place. Then I walk, like to have a break and I came back again. And then the manager came, she was a very nice young woman, asked me if I got my order, maybe they realized that there is not. I said, oh yeah and then to clarify things to her, I assumed that maybe the man took my order, so I’m saying no I bought this for him. Because she say me pay for it. GAGAN: Then she saw that the plate or tray with the other guy. GASIM: Yes, I mean he was not there when she came and asked me. I told her no, I bought this for him I just. I thought I clarified enough for her and then she left. Then also I walk again, the man came, finishing was eating. Then there was another woman, friend of his wife, his ex-wife, she saw him and she also bought him a salad like a lunch. I think the man was well before he became homeless. This homeless people also came from good background. Doesn’t mean they were born homeless. GAGAN: Yeah, yup. Some people go bank, bankrupt, so they don’t have any other choice. GASIM: Absolutely, this can happen to any of us in this country. So, anyways, the man came back. The man was little bit upset and so I ask him why, he ask can I talk to you? Because I was busy working. I said yes. He told me the manage came and insulted him basically talking why you beg people for food. (he says something here which wasn’t very clear, just one sentence not much). I was really offended by that, I tell him that no you never ask me for food, I never saw, you never bother anybody, you never beg for food. And he was dressed nicely and I said that is all, I’m going to talk to her. GAGAN: Hmm GASIM: So I went and I call her. I said, look I told her what happened, I told you, you asked me if I bought him this meal. This man never asked me for, I I said I think you really hurt his feelings. Yes, hes homeless but he is a decent human being, he has feelings and I think you owe him an apology. You need to go apologize to him. And she said she will do it but she was busy. After few minutes she came there, I was sitting, she came very nicely, she sat with him and said, I want to tell you something that I’m really sorry. The man moved by this, then she told him something, she made him laugh, I don’t know what they both talk about. Then the man look at me and said you talk to her and I said yes. But, my point here is so even the man was white, we need to stand up for justice. GAGAN: There is other kinds of discrimination not just because your from a different country, there is also like poor and rich.. Page 12 �GASIM: Economic bases, religious bases, ethnic basses, there is also based on color, based on linguistics, based on ethnic, color also comes into this gender bases, sexual orientation. I mean we might not approve peoples way of life but that is in this country at least. Everyone should have his dignity as a human being. Whatever background they came from and we need to stand up for that. GAGAN: Yup, definitely, we just did a 24 hour no judging exercise. It didn’t go so well for most people I think. I tried so hard not to judge anyone, so I think it’s a good exercise. I think more people should be involved in this, its hard. You start thinking why am I doing this, why is it so hard for me to not like judge someone. GASIM: I learned my lesson a lot not to judge people. Sometimes things can happen to us like, and when you live in different countries you see, you live that. i really have just, I need to do a few things. You can stop me if you need anything, another time we can continue our discussion anytime. GAGAN: Okay, that’s fine, no problem, thank you. GASIM: I hope this was helpful for what you’re doing? GAGAN: Yes this was, thank you very much. END OF INTERVIEW Page 13 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05ac84ef3aa33330f9bea130eacd3932.mp3 d121eb090b52d5436a419548de1c3aa1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Gasim_Gamal Title A name given to the resource Gamal Gasim audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gasim, Gamal Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Singh, Gagan Description An account of the resource Gamal Gasim, assistant professor of Middle East Studies and Political Science, earned his PhD in political science from Texas Tech. He teaches Introduction to Middle East Studies, Middle East politics, and comparative politics. Before Grand Valley, he taught at Texas Tech, University of Wisconsin-Madison during the summers of 2006 and 2007, and at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Beloit College during the summers of 2008 and 2009 respectively. He discusses how people who do not know anything about Islam or Muslims discriminate against them, and how the media plays a negative role in society in America. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/089e648bc2e9e83f40c1204617b390f2.pdf 8c7a9f6075cb78ab00d822fd63e9cbde PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Anna Fisk Interviewers: Zak Johnson, Andrew Guerkink, and Peter Braseth Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/26/2012 Biography and Description Anna Fisk was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She is an advocate and activist. She discusses growing up being lesbian in a Christian household. Transcript JOHNSON: We are currently recording. GUERKINK: We are on the books. JOHNSON: Cool, forever. GUERKINK: Ok, so there are just a few things we have to get through. A little spew I have to say. So, My name is Andrew and I am here today with Anna Fisk it is February 16 the year 2012 ah and we are in grand valley's Kirkhof center here in Allendale Michigan. And we are going to talk about here experience here in West Michigan. so, could you, please, give us your full name. FISK: Ah, Anna Fisk. Anna Marie Fisk GUERKINK: And where and when were you born? FISK: I was born in Grand Rapids at Butterworth Hospital October 20th 1981. GUERKINK: And your parents, siblings, family? FISK: Names or? GUERKINK: Names, or whatever you like. FISK: My mother is Lou Ellen Fisk. My dad is Gene Fisk. Ah siblings, oldest is Kelly Fisk uh then Jeremy Fisk and then Elijah Fisk. We all have the same last name cuz of marriage and divorce reasons but [Laughter]. We're all Fisks. [Laughter] GUERKINK: And so we want to talk broadly about your experience in West Michigan, you were born here in Butterworth; I was born in St. Mary's so in West Michigan how do you define yourself? What is Page 1 �your identity? FISK: In West Michigan well, I am and advocate and activist firstly...at this point in my life anyway. I'm a lesbian. I am white I am privileged, I am working class. GUERKINK: Do you feel like, the things you described those are the things you see yourself as, in this area when people look at you do they see the same things? Do you believe that? FISK: I think they do, actually. Maybe because my hair, I like to do fun things with my hair I always have. I used to dye it all different colors when I was younger. I can't tell you how many times I’ve been called sir. Which I'm like? But throughout my life except when I had long hair but I cut it short when I was 16. And mostly it happens from people who are highly intoxicated and probably living on the street. I correct them or they see my face and they say sorry. so I think that it's kind of obvious and people are like, "she must be a lesbian." I present more masculine than feminine probably, and it’s obvious that I white and therefore privileged. I don't know if working class is all written on me, but maybe my values or something. GUERKINK: So you talk about your phase of doing things with your hair when you first cut it off. Sort of when, you are seen by other people, they say, "oh she's a different girl" cuz you like to different things with your hair. Was there a point in your life when you were like, "hey I'm totally different from others around me because I wanna cut all of my hair off and go something crazy?" FISK: Absolutely, especially coming from a rural place. I went to Tri-Counties Schools, quite rural, literally surrounded by corn fields. It's on the borders of Malcolm, Newaygo, and Kent counties so it's... I mean there were so many dirt roads when I was going to high school. so let's see, I came out when I was 16. It was during the next years or so that I cut off my hair. It was reflecting my inner feelings of feeling different. My clothing style didn't really change much. I guess you could say very tomboy. I was always athletic looking. I did start dying it really like platinum. I even shaved it a couples times when I was 17/18/19. JOHNSON: Demi Moore FISK: And that was cool back then, and I did not look cute. GUERKINK: It’s just so funny, I don't wanna get too personal but my sister did the same things, she had her phase of platinum and cut really short and its just funny because you do have those feeling inside and you wanna get them out and so i wanna stay on topic with you and go with when you were going through those phases. Were there people in your life around you who encouraged you to develop who you are and your identity and embrace the outward expression of what’s inside? FISK: No. [Laughter]. My family was and still is, I mean a little background. JOHNSON: Yeah, please I'd like to hear about it. FISK: They I grew up in the best way to describe it is Pentecostal tradition. Christian. a lot of shouting raising your hand in church a lot of worship and literally people doing like things that outsiders would come in and say, "what the hell are you doing?" right. Like, "what are you doing right now?" When I was Page 2 �little, I would sit and draw during church cuz it was like 3-4 hours long. so that was my religious upbringing. And I was actually quite involved in church. I mean we went to Pentecostal church when I was growing up and then we started going to Free Methodist Church because my mom's family went there so we wanted to be close to them or something. She also played piano also at all the churches we went to so they need pianists and so she went to the Free Methodist Church which was quite mundane compared to the Pentecostal churches. And I became quite active in the youth group there I was like a pre-teen and I was like a teenager it was very religious and I say religious because I really bought into the religion part of it. And I kinda developed by own spirituality from that also and started going to a different church called, Bella vista church by Rockford. I started going there when I was like 16. Anyway back to the original question. My family, I don't know. They didn't condone it, they said, or anything but they're very, very loving people. and my mom is very like very emotional and, (of her mother) "I'm very emotionally connected to my children, let's have a heart to heart talk and be honest with each other." And my dad actually worked 3rd shift most of my life so he was kinda absent honestly throughout most of my life I did really spend a lot of time with him he would uh work all night and then sleep all day, get up, have dinner, watch TV, take a nap, and go to work. That was it. And the weekends he was in the garage. I mean, the most he ever said to me when I first came out was, "ah, I kinda noticed you were a lesbian" I was like ok cool. "ah, ok I m gonna go work on some cars." [Laughter] and I was having my own internalized homophobia feelings and really just strugglin' and they didn't really offer to like help, necessarily, but "oh maybe you should go to therapy" because that was the only way, "go to therapy." So I could be like fixed or I could fight the desire and still have a "normal" heterosexual life. So, I mean, they weren't like were kicking me out. For a lot of teenager the coming out process you may as well, its almost better, if your parents or guardians are like, "well just leave then" because then you're leaving this place where they aren't accepting you and they're thinking things about you. GUERKINK: You know where you stand. FISK: Right. It's almost like so many things are unspoken and they're thinking so many things and there talking to each other about things. And my mom has a large family and I know she's calling every one, "Oh feel bad for me because my daughter is gay." So they were really, I mean, they knew that I was like this wacky teenager before I came out and I was always like the crazy teen out spoken and did weird things. So one time, when I did shave my head and I was a little bit older and I had actually kinda moved out but not really I was 17 it didn't really work out that well, I had shaved my head and moved back home and my dad was like, "look please don't shave you head again." [Laughter] and so I was like, "cool, ok I won't shave my head again." I mean there was really no encouragement. GUERKINK: So, no encouragement from home, but no one really discouraging you from being yourself it wasn't as if someone was telling you, "look you have to completely change who you are or else we are not going to love you." Was that, you don't paint that out to be particularity positive, but was that positive for you? At least you knew people still loved you, even if people didn't talk about it? FISK: I don't know, I mean I've struggled with it for some years. I've been out for like 14 years now and I don't know if it's like I don't know if it's worse to live with that and like almost like I condone because I am still participating and active in their lives i don't know its about love ta that point people use live as a masking of hate. to cover it up is like the white elephant. Even in general when people are commenting, "I don't care what you don you in the bedroom i still love you." Well it does matter because its not about sex it's about loving someone. It's likes saying racist doesn't exist because we love each other. And the fact that they never really did their own research or got books-and I could suggest books about being gay and being Christian and how to deal with having a gay son or daughter- when ur a Christian or Page 3 �something. Go to a PFLAG meeting or something like that, they never, no. JOHNSON: So what is your relationship like with your mom after coming out? FISK: Well m, I mean my mom and I have always been really close. I guess, we always had a lot of fun together. We'd laugh and go shopping. I was the only kid who would love to go shopping so we did that all the time. And just crack up about things and just laugh for hours on end. And that part continued, we still kinda but, there was always this tension after i came out. there still kind of is there's been some pretty good breakthroughs in the past couple of years only I think we kinda didn't talk about it much. I would try to talk about who I was dating or something and she would kinda like not really respond so it definitely strained it quit a bit. I went through so many years where I struggle with, if i should talk to my parents because maybe they're not saying, "screw you don't bring your partner home" m, I don't know it did change. GUERKINK: You talk about your deep spirituality and you talk about suggesting books to read for your parents to sort of balance your faith and your identity was that a struggle to get to get to a good place and was it a struggle to get to that point? FISK: I am in a fantastic point. GUERKINK: You seemed like it. FISK: It took me a long time and i struggle tremendously and I struggled for many years with it. Initially after I came out other than my family or she needs therapy. I, myself, put a lot of pressure to change. I did not really know what being gay meant. I was 16 I had like boyfriends but they were not sexually active. It's all for show then usually or it was when i was a teenager. Just, having my first girlfriend we were very much in love and it was about loving each other and then of course sexual discovery and we would back and forth, breaking up, getting back together, and then we have to fight our urges and still be best friends. Of course it doesn't work out like that. GUERKINK: How long was the back and forth? FISK: It was at least a year. It was quite a bit of time. And then she went to the same church that I had started going to, Bella Vista. I told her, "why are you following me? we're supposed to be separate and not do this." And then [Laughter] I got involved with the youth group there and made some friends. Disclosed to my small group that i was struggling, "my struggle" we'd pray about it and things and then I had like this, its' so weird to think about it know being so far removed from it part of myself and that community but, I went with the youth group leader and this other women and this interpreter and she went through this booklet called, "Breaking the Bondage" it like a 12 step literal; I used to have it before I-I think I burned it. You walk through this steps where you disclose stuff and it's kinda weird, they have get rid of the demonic spirits living inside of you. After I did that, it was supposed to be cured and obviously it didn't work so I kind of stopped being as active and became really angry with my first girlfriend and she was following me there, so I was like, "well I'm m not going to go there." So I started getting involved in other things teenagers do. Started to party and began to ignore my spiritual part. I remember one night, and that was when I moved out, I lived in what we called the, "drug house" in Cedar with my older friend. He got married and then his wife left him after that. We know now that he had schizophrenia, we didn't' know that at the time. So we had this little house and a bunch of us lived there and it wasn't terrible but it was bad. Everyone was like always smoking weed and I didn't really Page 4 �smoke... Andrew/JOHNSON: You did not have to, you probably had a contact high. FISK: That what I liked about it, just watch Pokeman and get super high or like, "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas." so I was living there and like a bunch of people and partying going on and I was like I don't wanna be here. So it was Thursday night and I was like, "oh, I'll go check out the youth group." It was kind of a large crowd there and you could stand in the back and blend in-or so I thought. I was standing in the back hanging out just, "strugglin'" and the youth leader, what was her name? Denise, oh by the way she works, I believe, at Mar's hill last time I checked, just an FYI. I like to call people out when I can cuz she a pretty horrible person. So, she pulls me aside, randomly found me, I was there for like 3 minutes and she taps me and starts to talk to me. So, she pulls me in this room and sits me down. All of the sudden my small group leader's there and someone else and her were like sitting around the table and I'm like, "what is going on" and she was like basically, "the pain you made us go through and all of this stuff and you put us through this stuff and your not changing and you obliviously don't have the desire to change and your negatively impacting the youth group." I was like, "First of all, I haven't been here for a while and second I'm not that important like not many people know me because I've not been there for a while." She says, "I'm not welcomed to any youth group events." I could still go to the big people church, and I was like, well, now way because no kid wants to go to that. And I was like so floored. Totally unexpected, caught off guard. I came there for refuse seeking refuge and they literally kicked me out. I mean I had to leave, they watched me leave. I got in my car and that was like as close I've ever come to just like killing myself quite frankly. It was, it highly impacted my emotional state. obviously I didn't. Andrew/Zak/BRASETH: Thankfully FISK: I just went back and to the party house and just sat there and whatever. So ya that was pivotal and then after that i didn't go to church anymore. I didn't seek fellowship with other Christians or anything kind of started to really--and I'm almost thankful for that moment because it really made me seek my own answers. JOHNSON: I'm sure you're really mad at God at this point. FISK: I was very much so like why? JOHNSON: Exactly you went back to this church to find refuge and find support and the one place you thought you'd go you saw the opposite. FISK: Yah, I was rejected and at that point I still believed in a Christian God and Jesus Christ, he's my Savior and all the principles I grew up with. But I was like I need to start doing this myself and really find the answers and forget what everyone else says... ANDREW, JOHNSON: Mhhm right FISK: But I’m like wow I need to start doing this myself and really finding these answers for myself and stop just listening to what everyone else says because that is quite ramped in the Pentecostal church to just listen to what the pastor says, and just go along with that. So I just started reading books, I found a book by Mel white, he used to write speeches and ghost write for people like Jerry Fawell actually, and Page 5 �pat Robertson and even- he’s a gay man, even after he came out he did write a couple of things for not jerry but I think maybe pat after he was out as a gay man, he's a reverend, he started a group called Soulforce, and they actually came to west Michigan a while ago, they are a non violent, direct action against spiritual violence against the LGBT community, he was like my hero for a very long time I read his book but I can’t remember the name, but it was very inspirational, and it sort of helped me to kind of look at things differently, what is this interpretation, what does this mean, obviously levitical code is all outdated it’s all old testament, so I going through the new testament, what does Paul mean, Corinthians, Romans I think people are surprised when people find out that I have a lot of knowledge about the bible and things JOHNSON: right FISK: because I don’t just readily go talking about it, so I kind of went through that phase, and then I started to get very angry with my parents and that’s when I was like I didn’t know if could talk to them, they are not listening to me they are totally rejecting me, even though they say they love me, and I can come over when ever I want, or hang out, it’s the principal of it JOHNSON: right FISK: so I went through that for quite some time, I tried not be gay a couple of times. During that time also, JOHNSON: what do you mean by that FISK: well, I tried – I know try not to be gay – [Laughter] GUERKINK: so far FISK: I was quite gay still [Laughter] but uh, trying to have a boyfriend and seeing if I could lead heterosexual life with a man. Zak right FISK: that didn’t JOHNSON: how did that make you feel when you tried to fight these – FISK: it, (exhales) it causes so much turmoil, having internalized homophobia is like talk about having a demon inside you, like having this turmoil GUERKINK: you need that 12 step program FISK: all the time, yeah, I mean just constant axiety, and rejection of your true self and covering it up, and playing roles because what they tell you, men and women have these roles, so you sort of try to be this role JOHNSON: try to make yourself fit in FISK: right, and just maybe dress more feminine, the shit the American family association tells you to do. Page 6 �JOHNSON: nuclear family, 2.3 children GUERKINK: yeah, the “bob” and a dress FISK: yeah and that lasted about 2 seconds and I was like JOHNSON: no way FISK: First of all this guy who was trying to like date was a complete asshole All: [Laughing] FISK: So and I actually knew him from Bellavista, and we like met somewhere at like Mars Hill or something. Cause I went to Mars hill for like 2.2 seconds. JOHNSON: A hot second GUERKINK: [Laughing] FISK: And actually I believe they are moving towards being an affirming church anyway, even though the Devo’s go there, or did, anyway, that’s a side note JOHNSON: Yeah, I read the Time article about Rob Bliss, he is very interesting FISK: Yeah, yeah he is, anyway I went there for like a hot second and I saw this guy and I was was like “oh this must be like divine intervention” [Laughter]. And so we like, we went to this Joyce Meyer conference together. And GUERKINK: Sighs JOHNSON: Who is Joyce Meyers? FISK: She a televangelist, basically, huge, huge, like worldwide following, and she’s a pretty funny lady, she’s southern, she has an accent, she has funny stories, and she’s really like quirky and people like her. She talks about abuse a lot so a lot of people can relate to her or something, or like overcoming an obstacle. And there was and I still really liked worship music, just because I still like music in general JOHNSON: Its good music FISK: Ah, the group from Australia, ah, can’t think of it know, anyway this woman Darlene Check, who wrote “Shout to The Lord” big in the 90’s, her group, her worship group was there and that was the only reason I wanted to go. So I was like oh sweet concert. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: [Laughs] FISK: Anyway and him and I went and by the end of that trip I was like “eff you, you suck”. JOHNSON: [Laughing] Wow Page 7 �GUERKINK: [Laughing] FISK: It was my birthday too. And he was just a complete asshole GUERKINK: Oh, awesome. JOHNSON: Sweet FISK: And then we had a conversation in my living room and he, well somehow we were kind of talking about sex, and he was like “oh yeah, well if you didn’t want to I would expect something else ya know”. And I was like well that ain’t happening. So see ya JOHNSON: Hooooo! sounds like a nice fellow FISK: Yeah he’s a great guy, great Christian guy GUERKINK: Yeah he sounds solid, not to judge your character. All: [Laughing] FISK: Anyway I didn’t have sex with him, he didn’t get what he was going for. Eventually I found out that [sex] was basically his motive. GUERKINK: Wow FISK: And after all that happened, I was like ok, I’m seriously super gay here All:[Laughing] FISK: Let’s just like get on with it, then I really started to go into the acceptance process I think JOHNSON: How long did that take, you came out when you were 16? FISK: Right JOHNSON: And you went through out these pretty formative years that were like, “maybe I’m not gay, maybe I can try and not be gay, but well no I am gay”. So what type of span in years are we talking to you finally saying “I’m gay, I love it, and I’m gonna go with it”? FISK: Let’s see (long pause), probably until maybe I was 23? I think JOHNSON: Took a while FISK: So quite a while, of back and forth JOHNSON: So 7 years GUERKINK: It’s not that long. Page 8 �FISK: Yeah it’s, yeah, having dysfunctional relationships because of it and that after I started really having meaningful, functional, long lasting relationships after that as well. JOHNSON: Great BRASETH: Could you tell me a little bit more about your childhood, just not specifically anything, but just general things you would like to talk about. FISK: Yeah, let’s see, well I grew up in a rural area, I loved where I lived it was a small town in the 80’s and you could run up to the party store, I would just run over there. You could run around without having fearing that something is going to happen to you. Ride your bikes all over town and go places. I really enjoyed my childhood and my friends. And then we moved to Grand Rapids for about a year and a half when I was in like third grade and fourth grade? I did not do well at all. JOHNSON: No? Big change FISK: Not at all, I became like severely depressed, missed like tons of school, they couldn’t figure out what was wrong with me, like my stomach hurt all the time. And eventually they took me to a psychiatrist or something and tried to give me medication but I would, I didn’t really eat that much so I would just like throw it up because it would upset my stomach. Apparently I found out later that my parents were having a really rough time as well, in their marriage. So like all this horrible shit happened when we moved to Grand Rapids so promptly moved back GUERKINK: [Laughing] JOHNSON: [Laughing] FISK: But we moved like out in the country as opposed to moving in town and I was like “oh this is great I’m going to be better here this is a great place”. And so, I had a fantastic time at that house it was a like an old school house JOHNSON: Cool FISK: We had friends that had horses JOHNSON: Nice FISK: It was a really good experience; I think my childhood for the most part. BRASETH: Could you tell me more about your family, not necessarily your parents but siblings anyone else you were close to. FISK: Yeah, I’m the youngest of 4. GUERKINK: hmph (sigh) FISK: My sister is like 11 or 12 years older than I am and then my brother Jeremy is a year younger than her. And then my brother Elijah and I are 3 years apart. so the dynamics were kind of weird. JOHNSON: Two and two Page 9 �FISK: My sister got stuck babysitting us a lot which she apparently resented JOHNSON: Mhmm FISK: Which she hated, she, she was quite rebellious, and got pregnant when she was 15 and had her first child when she was 16 and I was like 5 so my niece and I are like 5 years apart which kind of cool JOHNSON: That’s crazy FISK: Because I never had a younger sibling JOHNSON: Yeah that’s awesome FISK: Yeah well she ended up marrying the man of that child and he was extremely abusive to her so, they had another child, a few years later or something and she basically lived through hell and finally when he nearly choked her to death she finally left him JOHNSON: Thank God! FISK: Yeah and she came to live with us after that, her and this kids which was great, I loved it I loved having my niece and nephew around and I would babysit them, I was babysitting them when I was like 9 JOHNSON: Wow your grew up fast FISK: We were all very close, so they lived with us and that was great, especially because my dad worked third shift and my mom was always quite lonely so she, we just loved it. So it was my sister her to children, myself and my brother Elijah who was in high school at the time and my parents that lived in the house. My brother was signed up to go to the all night like basketball thing at the youth group JOHNSON: Like a lock in FISK: Yeah, a lock in and my sister volunteered to take him, it was like 10 or 11 at night, to go meet up with his friends and it was around Christmas time, she was going to bring him and come back and then we were all going to wrap like presents so my mom and I were getting the little kids in bed and are like popping popcorn. And all the sudden we get a phone call. Apparently on their way, they drove, or like a truck with those big headlights on top of it GUERKINK: Mhmm FISK: Had the headlights on and she was like messing with the radio and when she looked up she was blinded and spun off into the ditch and hit a tree. Luckily she like flew out of the door. It was a sweet car, it was beautiful 89 Monte Carlo, it was burgundy it was beautiful, and so like the big door flew open, and like some how she flew out. My brother like braced himself by doing this (acted out how her brother had braced for impact) and it impacted a tree on her side and it was completely crushed in. and he was like somehow safe, except he was like cut up really bad and his shoes came off for some reason All: [Laughs] FISK: He always remembers that he’s like “I didn’t have any shoes on and it was like winter” Page 10 �All:[Laughs] FISK: And they were in this swamp area, and so got out of the car and he could hear her like moaning and he’s like “oh, stay here” he was all bloody and he said “stay here I’ll go and get help” and the nearest house was probably a quarter mile away. JOHNSON: Oh my gosh FISK: So all this is going on, somebody, I don’t know, he eventually found some a woman’s house and knocked on her door and they called my mom and called the ambulance and everything and so my mom was just like “oh my god oh my god” and I was like what’s happening? JOHNSON: Right FISK: And I was in like 5th grade or something and she just like threw some clothes on and got in my older brothers, his, one of his cars was there for some reason even though he didn’t live there she didn’t really know how to drive it, but she like was smashing gears All: [Laughs] FISK: Like got to the site around the same time the volunteer fire people, because the nearest ambulance is like forever away JOHNSON: Right FISK: And some I’m just like there with the children and she like “I’ll call you or whatever” and there were no cell phones. My sister had broken her neck completely; it was like side by side and thankfully my brother didn’t touch her or move her when she was on the ground because that probably would have killed her. So she was in critical care for some time they had to like put her head in traction, bring it up set back on her neck JOHNSON: Like the halo FISK: Fuse it, yeah, and her spine was swollen but there was on spinal damage. GUERKINK: That’s good. FISK: Like I don’t know how she survived that. JOHNSON: Yeah, grace of god. FISK: Yeah and her lungs, her lung was punctured and stuff, she was on the verge of dying for quite some time. So that was pretty traatic for everyone. And I admire her so much now, and she went through another horrible relationship and divorce it wasn’t physical abuse but it was every other kind. JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: And she got out of that relationship and has been single ever since, we’ve actually grown quite close we would go to her son’s, my nephew’s football games together, we are pretty close now, and I’m close with both her children they are like my siblings. That is her story Page 11 �JOHNSON: She can walk and everything. FISK: Oh yeah, she is fine. JOHNSON: Oh my gosh FISK: She just has like a big scar, and she kind of turns like her whole body [Laughing] JOHNSON: Right FISK: We kind of make fun of her for it. JOHNSON: That’s unbelievable. FISK: Yeah she’s amazing, the fact that she is still living without having had any counseling or anything you know what I mean, and has just gotten through life in general so yeah, she’s, I admire her a lot, and then my other siblings, Jeremy married his high school sweet heart, and they have a two kids, he’s a mechanic. And Elijah got married when he was younger they have like 4 kids, they all actually live by each other GUERKINK: That’s cute FISK: Yeah like in a cul-de-sac, Jeremy lives a few miles away but both Kelly and Elijah and my parents live in like a cul-de-sac GUERKINK: [Laughing] JOHNSON: [Laughing] FISK: We call it the Fisk commune. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: [Laughs] That’s awesome! FISK: Yeah, Elijah, I don’t have anything big about Jeremy he’s cool, he’s whatever. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: Right FISK: Elijah has had the most trouble with, and has been the most vocal about my being gay. GUERKINK: Uh huh JOHNSON: Okay FISK: And he has condemned me, he has said he has felt uncomfortable with me around his children which I promptly said a big “eff you” and Page 12 �JOHNSON: Right FISK: You better not say that to me every again, like you… JOHNSON: Like you’re going to turn them gay or something? FISK: Right yeah, I don’t know what I’m like, what do you even mean JOHNSON: Sigh FISK: That doesn’t even make any sense. JOHNSON: No it doesn’t, there is nothing there FISK: And my dad was even like “what do you mean, what the hell are you talking about” GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: Right FISK: Him and I don’t really speak, we haven’t for quite some years JOHNSON: Really? FISK: Even since he said that basically which was, man I don’t know, maybe 5 years ago JOHNSON: Really, so 5 years? FISK: We just say “hi” and “bye” GUERKINK: The only one in your family that’s like that FISK: Yeah nobody well, most of us can’t stand him too much, because he has a big mouth JOHNSON: Ah, I know the feeling FISK: He just says things without thinking JOHNSON: Yeah that one too FISK: He is very self righteous JOHNSON: Yeah I know the type FISK: Yeah, you can’t even do anything with him JOHNSON: You can’t crack the shell at all, not, there is nothing FISK: You can’t reason with him Page 13 �JOHNSON: No FISK: You can’t, they just like to get a rise out of you JOHNSON: yeah, it’s difficult I’m sure, because he is your brother. FISK: Right JOHNSON: Your closest sibling too so… FISK: Right, he always hated me growing up though JOHNSON: Yeah? FISK: He really despised me [Laughs] I really never knew why. JOHNSON: Because you’re the baby, that’s why, because you’re the youngest. FISK: Yeah JOHNSON: You got everything FISK: Well he did though JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: That’s why I’m so confused, my mom seriously, he is the baby. JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: My mom babied the shit out of him. JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: Serious, my mom still does so… JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: He’s just odd, he pisses my sister off on a regular basis so… GUERKINK: Hmm, great FISK: Yeah Page 14 �GUERKINK: Was it just always like that though, all throughout your childhood, just back and forth back and forth FISK: He was always like beating up on me, and I was like a really small kid and we would kind of play together when we were younger, or whatever and then he started to just like not ever want to do anything with me and the most interaction we had when I was a teenager is he would like drive us to school, and he was always crashing cars JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: We were in an accident together once, he’s had a lot of accidents. JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: Yeah we didn’t really interact, I tried to live with him, because it was closer to where I was working, him and his wife and their first child, and that lasted about 2 months. GUERKINK: Super successful there FISK: Yeah, yeah, that’s when he was still drinking, like he is not allowed to drink per his wife because he turns into even more of an asshole GUERKINK: If you can imagine FISK: So yeah, yeah he, he JOHNSON: A lot working there, a lot working there FISK: Yeah I remember one time he said, he was drinking and I don’t know we were playing games or something and he’s like “yeah, well I know how lesbians have sex, I figured it out”. I’m like “oh did you? You’re a creep shut up.” JOHNSON: Sighs, right GUERKINK: Sighs FISK: I’m like “why are you thinking about that” JOHNSON: Yeah. FISK: “Your sister is a lesbian that’s a little weird.” JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah GUERKINK: That’s a little messed up, kind of gross FISK: And don’t say that to me and don’t ask me questions Page 15 �JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah, right, right GUERKINK: So you guys, I forget how old, older is he from you? FISK: 3 years. GUERKINK: 3 years, so you guys didn’t really go to high school much with him, I’m assuming? FISK: No, actually he, we were both born in October, he started school when he was 4 and I started when I was 5, so I was in 8th grade when he was a senior. GUERKINK: Okay. FISK: So he graduated when he was like 17. GUERKINK: So in high school you were just all by yourself no siblings? FISK: I was, yeah well I dropped out the beginning for my junior year. GUERKINK: Ok FISK: I was very active in softball and basketball most of my life, I very much excelled at softball and probably could have gotten a… JOHNSON: Scholarship FISK: Like a full ride scholarship had I completed high school, our teams always went to like district regional’s and all that. GUERKINK: Sneezes ZAK/FISK: Bless you! FISK: So, but that still, that alone wasn’t enough incentive for me to stay especially after I came out. JOHNSON: Did you go back to get your… FISK: Yeah I went back and got my GED when I was like 19, (burps) excuse me, then started at [GR] CC for several years, then I came to Grand Valley and finished up. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bc6b402cfe8fffdb9cc146da00bd4013.mp3 7d39dfa444bb5e664e7282a445b76403 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Fisk_Anna Title A name given to the resource Anna Fisk audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fisk, Anna Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Zak Guerkink, Andrew Braseth, Peter Description An account of the resource Anna Fisk was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She is an advocate and activist. She discusses growing up being lesbian in a Christian household. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Lesbians--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9e6f2978002bff3baeb2ae9312e1a46b.pdf 617dba204c4c1ee3672ff755b1994aec PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Robby Fischer Interviewers: Jordan Sayfie Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/10/2011 Biography and Description Robby Fischer is a Grand Valley State University Alumni. He talks about his experiences with activism in West Michigan. Transcript SAYFIE: K. My name is Jordan Sayfie and I am here today October 10, at noon, with Rob Fischer at Grand Valley downtown campus we are here to talk about your experiences with activism in West Michigan could you start by telling me a little bit about yourself, where you come from? FISCHER: Yea, I’m originally from outside of the Flint area that’s called flushing Michigan. I was raised there and I came over to Grand Valley in 2007 to start my 4 year degree. I studied liberal studies at Grand Valley. Yea and so I just finished up that degree this past spring and then over the summer I was just living in Ann Arbor, playing music and packing vegetables for a living but yea that was what the summer was and since the beginning of fall I’ve been doing a lot of work with Occupy Wall Street stuff. Starting in September I went out there. For a week and a half and upon returning from that I just moved with a lot of great people over in Muskegon and... Yeah and that’s where I’m at now. SAYFIE: Very cool. I gotta ask you a little bit more about picking vegetables, what was that? Where were you doing that? FISCHER: It was an organization, or I don’t know if it was a business or an organization or one of those in between type deals. But it’s called (inaudible) what their mission is to make local vegetables produced in the winter time. We get local vegetables and local produce from around the Ann Arbor area. .. I think most of all of it is within a 50 mile radius and we process it and by process it I don’t mean we add chemicals. I mean we cut it up and make it edible and we put it into small packages and we freeze it. It’s essentially a CSA for winter time. A CSA, being a community support of agriculture. Where people come and basically get a subscription to (inaudible) and once a month they come pick up their boxes of produce and then they have lots of frozen produce to get through the month. SAYFIE: Very cool, that’s sweet. How did you get into that? Page 1 �FISCHER: I think I found the job on craigslist actually. Yea and... It was cool because it’s all about local food and I was yea and if I’m going to be doing something to make money I might as well be doing something that kinda supports local farmers. .. And it turned out being a really fun job. I was ... yeah.. I really d the people I worked with and it was really, really repetitive stuff picking stems off of broccolis for 3 hours a day. And then spending the rest of the day shucking corn or something. It was still really fun just to get to know some people around there. SAYFIE: And that was just kind of a summer thing? FISCHER: Yeah that was just a summer thing yup. SAYFIE: Alright. How would you describe your own identity? FISCHER: Oh jeez, yeah that’s kinda a big question. I think that there are some things that play into it so go over some of the huge parts of my idea I guess. One huge part is music. I’ve been a musician for a really really long time now. Since I was a kid and I think that yeah sometimes it can be hard for me to explain it exactly where I stand on politics where I stand on activism or just try to figure out those things philosophically. And what not but I think for me, music is the way to express myself even with the uncertainties express myself in a way and say “this is me” I’m this is exactly who I am. And not have to worry about being so particulate about it and have to worry about messing it up because yeah if you’re just making music you can really mess up. Yeah so that’s always been whats really closest to me another big thing that’s always been a part of me is spirituality. I was raised in the Christian faith and all through growing up that was something that was a part of me. .. And it still is and it’s ... the way that... that faith looks with it itʼs the way that I describe it and its my doctrinal thinking or my theology has changed a whole, whole, whole lot. And it’s way different then it was when I was just a you know, in junior high or whatever. But yeah that’s something that’s still very (inaudible) it’s yeah just an acknowledgement of the spiritual realm and its importance on my life and the importance of who I am. Yeah and I think another big part of my identity is... is that I’m Paraguayan. I am from South America. .. I was adopted. This is something that growing up it didn’t mean all that much to me I kinda just didn’t think too much of it. But I guess growing up and realizing that that’s a part of who I am and that’s something that I really want to be proud of and not try and hide is the fact that I am a person of color. And the fact, the different... the different things that that means to me. For instance coming over here .. I heard about Colbus day stuff on the radio and it was .. Colbus day stuff was something I would have never thought about in grade school or whatever. But I think now that Iʼve really started to mesh and realize that the Paraguayan part is really part of who I am south American is really part of who I am. and its Colbus day and things that take on a whole different meaning where yeah I could kind of identify more with these people my ancestors who have been oppressed for hundreds and hundreds of years by colonialism and that type of thing. And yeah and just kinda being able to acknowledge that my alliances are with those people, are with my ancestors in that way. It really just brings a whole new meaning a whole new urgency to any sort of justice work that I do. And yeah so. SAYFIE: Did you, being adopted did you ever feel a disconnect from your cultural background? Page 2 �FISCHER: Yeah I think kind of subliminally I did. I think it was more just something.. where it was never really talked about so I never really, I never really was, never really thought to be identified as a person of color. I was raised by white parents; I was raised in a white culture basically. So I, I have dark skin and dark hair but I can pass as white, and so I just kinda learn to assimilate into that. It was never really discussed but I guess now what Iʼm learning recently in the last few years the importance of thinking about that and yeah holding that as a part of who I am and being proud about that. SAYFIE: Very cool, was there any particular moment growing up or now that you felt you were treated differently because of your beliefs? FISCHER: Yeah I think that.. yeah.. growing up as a Christian I kind of had a lot of Christian beliefs growing up where very main stream. Didnʼt really divert that much from mainstream Christianity but more lately more in the last 10 years or whatever Iʼve definitely had a lot of revamping of what I believe in that area. And .. yeah that can definitely start to get kind of hairy when you start to realize at least for me I see Jesus as someone whoʼs, heʼs always talking about my message is to bring the good news to the poor and he was always talking about the poor, always talking about the oppressed. .. and .. yeah just bring justice to those people and equality. And I think that once I started to realize really what that meant .. once I really started to kind of believe or kind of just started to see the social part of the Gospel a lot of Christians didnʼt to hear that. yeah it can be hard because I guess a lot of Christians Iʼve had interactions with have been “yeah yeah we should try and do stuff or whatever but we shouldnʼt question systems as they are.” We shouldn’t question things capitalism, we shouldnʼt question things global trade that’s just how it is and yea and thatʼs definitely not something that I believe. I definitely think part of my duty as a Christian or just a person is to question large systematic justices that and a lot of people really donʼt to hear that. and its also kinda hard because on the other end, my willingness to question systematic injustices and capitalism or anything has put me under a lot of people who are really counter- cultural so a lot of times around those people they donʼt really to hear about the Christian side of it. So it’s kind of a weird conundr where a lot of the time I’m around people who are “what? Youʼre not a capitalist? What are you a sinner?” and the other times Iʼm around people who are “of course capitalism sucks but youʼre a Christian what are you some sort of sell out?” so itʼs a weird thing. SAYFIE: Yeah kind of a clash of Ideas. FISCHER: Yeah sort of a clash but to me its something that winds up and Its all just one of the same things. Yeah so thatʼs kind of how my beliefs go. Thatʼs where Iʼve felt a lot of that sort of attention. Racially I haven't felt it as much because I said I was raised in a very privileged, white upbringing. Yeah.. very upper middle class, I went to a really really nice school and .. I was raised in Flushing which is a suburb of flint so a lot of times I was really isolated from the realities of Flint and so and in a lot of ways I was given many of the privileges that are associated with being white. And so, yeah so I havenʼt had to come into contact with that as much. SAYFIE: Racially?
 Page 3 �FISCHER: Racially, yeah.
 SAYFIE: So tell me a little bit more about your music. What do you play? th FISCHER: I play guitar and I, when did I start playing? I think 6 grade I got a bass guitar and yeah just kinda went from there. And at first it was just something I picked up sometimes and would kinda get bored of but then I donʼt know I started playing in bands with my friends when I was, in junior high or whatever, and then by high school thatʼs who I was and thatʼs what I cared about... Yeah and it was the type of thing where thatʼs who my type of friends ended up being, most of my friends were musicians and that was definitely something that was really a bonding force between us all, which was great. and its awesome because those are still my best friends. My friends that I made in high school Iʼm still best friends with because of that bond whenever we get together we just play music and we can .. yeah and its always that type of passion, that shared passion, there’s just.. it builds in each other because I donʼt know whenever I see my friends really putting hard work into something a music project and really an awesome CD or something that makes me want to want to push myself further and then that in turn makes my other friends want to push themselves so its something where we all are building on each other’s passion. And so yeah even if I wanted to stop playing music I couldnʼt. So.. SAYFIE: Have you been in any festivals? FISCHER: To see music?
 SAYFIE: Yeah or… FISCHER: Yeah I want to, thatʼs actually something I havenʼt really gotten to do but I really want to ... Bonaroo looked really awesome SAYFIE: I hear its really hot down there. FISCHER: Yeah yeah, or warp tour and stuff, yeah I imagine all those things are pretty hot. Thatʼs why people kept getting really dehydrated and stuff. It sounds fun. SAYFIE: Yeah so youʼve been outside of Michigan, you mentioned New York earlier. Tell me about that, what was that for? FISCHER: New York? SAYFIE: Yeah FISCHER: Ok so, new york was I went out there for occupy wall street. Which is something that I, actually my lib professor Melissa, she was one of my favorite professors in my my whole career at Grand Valley. she sent me an email of this, of this protest that was going on and she was “I think this would be right up your alley.” and its its it was a protest that was kind of being advertised by the magazine Add Busters, which is kind of a counter- cultural magazine thatʼs pretty mainstream. You can Page 4 �find it in Barnes & Noble and they just talk about a lot of really cool activism stuff thatʼs going on. anyways , they were talking about this protest September 17 to just get thousands and thousands of people into into the financial district of Wall Street and occupy the Wall Street area. And just because yeah there are so many people who are so intimately aware into how Wall Street has done terrible things to the majority of our country, while making a small minority of people really really really rich. yeah and so the idea was to kind of , capture all this passion and really vague ambition and get those people who are passionate about it to get together and have them have general assemblies areas where they can talk and discuss what what tactically would be wise and what should be demanded, what should be.. how we should go about doing that. And so, yeah so that was the idea and the date was September 17. And when I first saw that I was “oh that would be really sweet and really really fun, and Iʼm sure id meet a lot of people.” But its in New York so I probably cant or whatever and it was just one of those things where it was “I wish I could but whatever.” And then I got to thinking about it more and I was , because one of the reasons I decided I probably couldnʼt was because my job was technically going into October .. and I was man “I wish I could have been out of this job at this time because I would maybe be able to go.” SAYFIE: This was the...
 FISCHER: The vegetable job, yup. FISCHER: I was you what if I could get out of this job earlier. Or what if, because at the time , over the smer I was in Ann Arbor for music to play with my friend my friend who is a drmer. But he was going to be out of there in September anyways and so then there wasnʼt really anything tying me to Ann Arbor. I was why do I have to stay in Ann Arbor if I want to be in New York? And so then after a few days I realized it kind of hit me .. its kind of plausible that I could quit my job and go to this New York thing. So I put in a months notice of yeah Iʼm not, this is a great job but, its not plausible for me to stay here. and yeah and then a month later I was on my way to New York. me and my friend, Kat from Muskegon went out there and yeah.. that was just a really really awesome trip. We left from Friday night and I didnʼt sleep, I just drove all the way through the night and I was gunna switch up driving but I was, I have a manual car, I have a stick shift and my friend didnʼt know how to drive a stick shift so I just ended up driving all through the night and there was just so much adrenaline that I didnʼt really even think about it. And so we got there at noon on Saturday which is actually right when it started, we timed it perfectly .. and yeah and it was , when we got there, there was a few hundred people and , yeah that day it grew into a thousand or maybe two thousand people on the first day. And it was cool because it was people from all over the country. People from California, Missouri, from Idaho wherever, Washington or Oregon. Yeah and they were just all these really passionate people and so yeah the first day I was marching around the streets it was just so awesome to have all that really raw passion and then yeah we got to we got to this park which was , maybe a block away from Wall Street and we all just kind of gathered into this park and we started having this general assembly to figure out yeah to figure out who we were, what we were doing, how we were gunna go about things. and that was a hot mess it was just out of control Page 5 �SAYFIE: kind of spur of the moment. FISCHER: yeah there was just so many people that had so many things to say trying to make something orderly or comprehensible out of it which was so not gunna happen that night. .. but yeah it was really chaotic .. but we I guess we decided that we were gunna stay over night there at that park and thatʼs what we ended up doing. And yeah the first few days it was just a lot of a lot of that kind of a lot of chaos but also we started to get things done a food committee up, and we started a medics and started to get an idea on how this occupation would start to look and , yeah and we started to become more organized in our marches and stuff .. yeah and there was so many lessons to learn about how to interact with a group that size. and how to make something productive come out of a meeting with hundreds of people who are all really really passionate yeah and yeah and so .. So on Monday there was just so much to happen where do you go? On Monday we had another really big march for the opening bell and .. yeah and it was pretty crazy because this was the first time they actually let us into Wall Street and whatever because over the weekend they wouldnʼt let anyone in. but yeah since it was the opening bell on Monday they let , there were people working so they had to let people in and so we just marched right through and it was crazy! Yeah and that was the first day people had gotten arrested, or was this Sunday or Monday? I donʼt know it was one of those two days that people had actually got arrested and it was .. it was starting to get real woah this is actually something. And my friend got arrested that day, my friend Kat .. just because she was calling out for badge nbers from the police to hold them accountable so that so we could take down badge nbers to see where these cops were doing this so in court that could be brought up in our testament. It is completely legal to call out badge nbers and say what is your badge nber, who are you, blah blah blah. But the cops didnʼt that, NYPD was pointing to her saying “arrest her too.” so yeah they got her so that was kind of scary coming back from the march and being “ok, whereʼs Kat?” and then yeah and then figuring out she had gotten picked up and I had to go down to the the first precinct to get her and there was maybe five other people that had gotten arrested that day too. Just for little things most of them that day were for wearing masks. And theres a weird, weird ordinance thatʼs super outdated in NYC where you can have more than 2 people wearing masks so even a bandana over your nose if theres more than 2 people wearing that, they can get arrested for it. SAYFIE: thatʼs got to be from mafia days. FISCHER: I think it is from mafia days or its something that or something having to do with Native Americans I think it might have been a weird obscure law to keep native Americans from the city Iʼm not exactly sure what its from but its really messed up and outdated but they were using it. They were using anything that they could because we were peaceful protestors we werenʼt knocking out windows or punching anyone we were just chanting and exercising our first amendment rights and yeah they just didnʼt that so they were trying to pick us up for anything they could. .. yeah and throughout the week I just , it just kept growing. We lost a few people after the first day. Because yeah people who flew in, or people who drove long ways had to go back for work. .. so they , the first week after the nbers had died off it started kind of gradually growing again. And then the second Saturday, a week from the day that it started, was a really really crazy march where we marched 2 miles to union square in the city. Page 6 �And that day people were by that time people were saying that we were holding ground and we were getting a lot of support and we were getting bus loads of people in from Wisconsin or Michigan so that Saturday we had between a thousand or two thousand people on this march again. And that was just insane because people were so loud and riled up. We were just taking the streets yeah there was just a mass of people going down Broadway in New York. Its one of the biggest streets there is and and yeah completely stopping traffic and whatnot. And and yeah I guess we had shut down the city for the two hours we were marching and people couldnʼt really go anywhere. .. which was so awesome and was one of the most inspiring moments maybe of my life to look behind me or jp up or stand on my tip toes and see people as far as I could see, just in the streets yelling and chanting and the cops would try and set up blockades and we would just go around them or just go through them they couldnʼt stop us. it was so cool. yeah and we got to Union Square and .. there was this huge huge huge mass of people and yeah as we started to go to go back, theres just more and more, the police violence was building this entire time .. they were especially going for people with cameras cause they didnʼt want this stuff to get docented. Because if theres nobody docenting it then they can really do whatever the hell they want. yeah and so on the way back from Union Square it started to get really crazy they started to bring a lot of the orange nets to try and coral us and yeah and there was points where we were all running and it just turned into a pretty chaotic thing there was cops running with those orange nets trying to out run us and get in front of us, it was crazy. And it was actually pretty funny I want to make a note, the cop running with the orange nets was hilarious because when it got broken down and kind of disorganized, the cops kind of got really disorganized too and they didnʼt know what was going on. And so one cop would be trying to run this way with the net and the cop on the other side would be trying to run the other way with the net and it was the three stooges or something. It was so funny to see. Because you think that protestors are the only ones that get disorganized or whatever but cops definitely were too. Our march was turning a corner once and and so as our march was turning a corner they the cops were able to put one of the nets in front of, in front of the intersection. And so I was in front of the people to got blocked off and so I was standing up against this net just shouting over to our.. to the other half of our march, the march that made it through and and yeah the people that made it through were shouting back “let them through!” and yeah and we were just trying to get the cops to let us through or whatever. but they obviously werenʼt happy about that. And so this went on for a really long time and then .. and .. and eventually the cops brought in another orange barrier from the back and they enclosed 30 of us who were trying to get through. and then they were “ok, if you all arenʼt going to turn around and disperse, were just gunna arrest all of you. And were gunna start with you two.” And he pointed at me and this girl next to me because we were at the front of the orange barricade. and so yeah the cops took this girl next to me and turned her around and they were cuffing her and stuff and and they and.. as our process or our .. what we do when people get arrested is we tell our first and last name and our date of birth. So that we can be found when were in the jail. and so we can have a record on who all gets arrested and whatnot. So as they were turning this girl around in front of me I was “ok whatʼs your name?” and she was “Caitlin Banner October 20th 1988.” And they cuffed her up and hauled her away. And then they they grabbed me and spun me around and I was “Michael Fischer, 12/9/88.” Or whatever. And as I was saying that they pulled me back into the group of cops and they started going for all of the other protestors and and in this , it was pretty chaotic because as they were Page 7 �trying to arrest me, they were also, most of the cops were trying to get in and get all 30 of the people and so it was just another one of those really chaotic times and in that chaos, none of the cops really took the initiative to grab me personally so I just kind of kept my arms really close to my body and shimmied my way backwards and before I knew it I was just in a group of people, our protestors again. And so I just ran into the protestors and found some dude to switch shirts with really quick and took off my bandana and tried to make it I wasnʼt noticeable anymore. And yeah and so that was really probably one of the craziest moments for me basically getting away but I was really happy about that. SAYFIE: you werenʼt wearing handcuffs at this point? FISCHER: No, I didnʼt get cuffed, I didnʼt get cuffed yeah. But yeah then they arrested all the rest of the thirty of them. SAYFIE: Jeez. FISCHER: Yeah so anyways, that march, my friend got arrested for the second time and they held her overnight. And yeah so I, the rest of my day and most of the next day were spent trying to figure out where she was. Trying to figure out, yeah how to be support for her and yeah and they let her out the next day and we were there, and oh yeah that Saturday march I was telling you about, there was over one hundred arrests. Yeah and so after we got her out, we decided, it was Sunday when she got out and she decided it wasnʼt a good idea to risk being at the park again because around that time thereʼs a lot of buzz are the police going to raid this camp, are they not .. it was just anybodyʼs guess and so we stayed at our friends in Brooklyn that night and then we came home the next Monday we started on our way home. And yeah and its such, it was such an amazing, incredible experience because just being around such positive, inspiring people who really want, who are really passionate about making a change, even if its kind of I donʼt know, its kind of hard to know what to do. And I feel that question of what do I do? what is effective, is such a huge overwhelming question for anyone who who has any knowledge about whats going on, cause the problems are so big but its what do you do about it. And I feel the beauty of this Occupy Wall Street movement is its people who are deciding to take the first step even though they donʼt know exactly what to do, even though that is such a huge, enormous question, you can still , you donʼt have to let that question prevent you from letting you do anything. theyʼre getting together and at least trying to address it together in a productive way and in while doing that theyʼre making, theyʼre making all the right people really angry. Because I guess JP Morgan, chase bank, they just donated a huge s of money to the NYPD because theyʼre scared; they are shaking in their boots millions of dollars SAYFIE: really? And is that almost paying off the police? You know that could seem a bribe. FISCHER: Exactly, yeah I kind of reminds you of what the police are there for at least for me it tells me maybe the police arenʼt there to protect everyday citizens maybe the police are there to protect the status quo, even if its just a really unjust status quo. yeah and yeah so, it was just inspiring to see all those people weathering it out through , they wouldnʼt let us put up tents and they arrested some people for hanging up tarps and so whenever it was raining and stuff there was just people sleeping Page 8 �under tarps, using it as a big blanket. And it was so uncomfortable and a lot of sleepless nights because of stuff that. Yeah people were out there enduring it. yeah it was just really inspiring, and now, oh yeah its even more inspiring since , even since Iʼve left it hasnʼt shrunk, its grown and grown exponentially. And yeah just a week ago there was 700 people that got arrested trying to cross the Brooklyn bridge. the cops just kind of mislead them into the traffic and once they were in the traffic part, they blocked off 700 of them and arrested them. Yeah and yeah these things the cops think these are going to tear down our nbers but where as they think that thatʼs the strategy to try and break up this movement is to just try and arrest everybody. But it seems for every arrest, theres 5 more people that are “wow thatʼs insane, I need to get involved.” And so yeah thereʼs just more people now out there than there were even when I was out there. And its 3 weeks later. And now its because thereʼs all these different occupy grand rapids sprouting up or occupy lansing, these different things sprouting up all over the country. and all over the world too thereʼs things going on in Greece or Paris in sequence with stuff that is going on here. And its the Grand Rapids one just started up, this last Saturday. So that was really, really inspiring too. Because I went over to that, do you want to here something about that now? SAYFIE: Yeah, absolutely. FISCHER: Ok cool. Yeah I went over to that and , me and Kat did, and we just kind of got drug into being facilitators in the discussion because we were familiar with the process, we were familiar with how the consensus process that was used and on Wall Street which is basically a process whereby its not just a majority voting , its not just a proposal and whatever side has 51% goes with it, itʼs a consensus process so we try and get everybody to get on the same page and and so it makes it a lot harder at times. but I think that itʼs a much better process because itʼs a way to keep group cohesion. because if yeah because if 49% of the people are having to go along with something that they are really against, then youʼre gunna lose a lot of people at every decision, youʼre going to create a lot of division. But with consensus itʼs a lot different because I guess because if there are concerns, those concerns are always heard. and if there are serious concerns, those concerns are seriously addressed. So you never feel your voice is not being heard. Or you never have to feel that. And a lot of times it isnʼt a perfect process and we are all learning so a lot of times there are a ton of problems with it and but yeah they are learning experiences and it teaches you a lot about how to communicate and how to listen. And how to move through things in a non- hectically way. You have to be a leader and say this is what were going to do and itʼs figuring out whether they want to or not. Yeah so anyways, consensus is good but it can be really, really hard and so at Grand Rapids it was kind of the same thing as New York, where thereʼs just so many people, with so much passion, that trying to make something coherent out of that, was super hard. Because it was even worse because in New York I was kind of just watching and in Grand Rapids I was one of the facilitators. So if things started to get out of hand, I kind of felt it was my fault. I had to try bringing everybody back and bringing everyone back on track. And it was so hard because we would just open it up for agenda items. I made it clear, this isnʼt a rant, this isnʼt your opinion, this isnʼt what the best demand would be. This is something that you think needs to be talked about on the agenda today. and so everybody opened up and we got one, maybe two good agenda items how, where and when we should do this. And yes of course we have to talk about that. But then we started getting people that are , “Chase bank is the worst, we need to all boycott Chase bank. We need to all go over Page 9 �there and take out our funds right now. And you know what else we need to do, is our carbon footprints,” and blah blah blah. And just these huge long rants and Iʼm just what do you do with this. and so yeah just trying to make something productive out of that was just really, really hard. but there was a lot of really good passion, a lot of really good energy. And there were people, it took us so long to figure out , ʻcuz the meeting on Saturday was technically just a general assembly just to figure out when and how we would occupy. Or where we would occupy at. it took us so long to figure out those questions. But yeah and it , people stuck through it, people were really enduring it. which was awesome. It was kind of just a testament to how much people care about it. They are willing to sit through literally four, five hour long meetings in the hot sun, in Calder Plaza, with no shade. and yeah just dealing with it when it seems not productive at all, just working through it. And yeah we just ended up deciding that we were just gunna occupy now and people started to march over to the park, which is just off of Pearl St. by the river. And yeah when we finally came to consensus about the park, everyone was just screaming, so happy that we made a really productive decision. And then we had a huge long march; it wasnʼt that long really, it was just a huge, really intense march. from Calder plaza, over to the park and yeah people were just going crazy, I lost my voice totally. Which was, I got there and was “hey I canʼt talk.” Which was kind of cool now because someone else has to present it I didnʼt want to do it. SAYFIE: Yeah it must be tough organizing. FISCHER: yeah but luckily one of my good friends started facilitating after that and sheʼs a way better facilitator than I am. so I was really happy to see that. And yeah its still going to this day, thereʼs still people over there at the park. I went over last night and they have a ton of food, a ton of water and it worked totally. There was maybe thirty people when I went that were staying the night, which is really good for just Grand Rapids because there were some nights in New York where we only got down to maybe 30 to 50 people. So just to have already that many in Grand Rapids, its great so hopefully it will keep going and maybe keep getting more organized and more efficient. yeah. SAYFIE: So New York was the start of this occupy? FISCHER: New York was the start then things started to kind of branch off and build off of the moment from New York. SAYFIE: So was this the start of your involvement in this type of activism type stuff? FISCHER: No I have been doing it for a really long time before that Iʼve been, yeah kinda been interested in it ever since high school and then started doing actual kind of work regarding it mostly in college, I learned a lot about it. SAYFIE: Ok
 FISCHER: Can we pause and get something to drink? SAYFIE: Absolutely. Page 10 �[Pause] SAYFIE: Okay, tell me about, your involvement in college and the groups you were involved in... FISCHER: So it started... when I, I remember when I came to college my freshman year, I was really excited to get into Amnesty International. I was I didnʼt really even know exactly who they were, but I just kind of had a vague idea that they did stuff that I wanted to do. Yeah, so I got involved with them. And... yeah, and so I was pretty much involved with them freshman and sophomore year. Yeah, they do, they do cool stuff. It wasnʼt really my type of... it got me involved with a lot of really cool people on campus. But as far as a group goes, and what I wanted to do, it wasnʼt really exactly what I wanted to do. But they do, they still do awesome stuff. And, yeah, from those connections, I kind of I got to meet a lot of other cool people. I think one of the big, one of the big, kind of shaping factors about what I, about what I ended up doing in college was when I decided, when I found out that you could be a Liberal Studies major; which is basically create your own major. Yeah I found that out my sophomore year, and yeah and I was originally just gonna just be a religion [major], that was gonna be my emphasis, was just religion. And so yeah, I had to take LIB100 that winter semester of my fresh... of my sophomore year. I had an awesome professor named Melissa Baker- Boersma. And sheʼs actually the one that I said emailed me about the Wall Street thing and told me about that. Yeah and anyways, yeah so I got to be really good friends with Melissa. And that semester I also had a Martin Luther King Jr. class; which is definitely the most, one of the most life-changing classes that I took, too, because he was just such a conspiring figure to me. And yeah, that was definitely one of the places where I really realized the connection between my faith and social justice, and the connections between , yeah, the Christian faith and addressing systematic social problems. [pause] Yeah and just the way that he did it was such an awesome inspiring thing for me. Yeah and then the next, yeah the next year... the next year I was involved in sustainability and practice... practic with Melissa Baker-Boersma, and that was really, really awesome. That was probably one of the most shaping moments of my life, the shaping times, periods of my life because yeah that was yeah when I was really putting all the, connecting all the dots between yeah environmentalism and stuff, and also systematic injustices in capitalism, and kind of seeing how those things were really, whatʼs it called, really related. And yeah, and I got to see that on , on a theoretical level because we had been reading a lot of really awesome books, and I got to see it on a practical level because I was working with this organization called, “Our Kitchen Table,” who does a lot of works with community gardens in, and around, Grand Rapids. And yeah it was just really, it was really cool to see , in the, in theory, how power works - through books and what not – and, but also, to see how practically, what those... how power works on the ground in, in Grand Rapids; and how , and how those large, overarching injustices are perpetuated, you know, right outside our doors. And yeah ... yeah a lot of the work that “Our Kitchen Table” did is trying to get food gardens in lower income areas – places where... places where [coughing in background] there arenʼt a lot of places, a lot of grocery stores that you can necessarily just go to. [fumbles with words] so a lot of people end up getting their food from a corner store, or a liquor store. Yeah and just trying to bring healthy food systems to these , to these areas, yeah and itʼs, it was such a good experience to see how the obstacles that are, that are put in place, and the way in which, yeah the way in which businesses or [short pause] elected officials can put up barriers to these , to these achievements that we are trying to work for. [pause] [fingers Page 11 �tapping on desk] Yeah, and I think that semester I met most of the people who... I, who kind of I hung out with the rest of my college life. People over at the Bloom Collective, [cough] which is a, a radical info shop in Grand Rapids, and just kind of a, an alternative library... SAYFIE: Okay... FISCHER: ...where you get a lot of, kind of alternative media, alternative books and docentaries that are, kind of counter-cultural [JS agrees] and that are... that you wouldnʼt find in a mainstream library; because they really, theyʼre really a radical challenge to the status quo. Yeah and they, the people at the Bloom Collective do a lot of really awesome stuff. just one of the things they do is a really, really free market sometimes where you just bring stuff; people bring stuff that they... that is valuable - that they donʼt need - and can give it away for free. SAYFIE: Mhmm... FISCHER: And, so, if you want something, you can get it for free; but if you have something that somebody else would need, you can give it to them for free. So itʼs called the really, really free market. And they do a lot of really awesome classes about... ... “The History of Social Movements” is one of the classes I took there a class Iʼm taking right now is called “Radical Sustainability”, ... which is basically looking at sustainability... in a way thatʼs... more than more than just driving less, or more than just using recycled goods itʼs really looking at what are the systematic ways in which we must address , we must address , power structures... now in order to , in order to fight for a more sustainable world, and , and to demand one, rather than just kind of hoping that it will come if we do these personal lifestyle things. [phone bings in the background] , yeah, and [pause] ... yeah, so I still do a lot of work with them. SAYFIE: Very cool. FISCHER: Yeah, and then my senior year, another class that I took which was really important to me was ... [thinking] ah, it was called “Dialogue”, and there was a subtitle to it, but I forgot, I forgot what the subtitle was. Anyways, whatʼs important is it was called “Dialogue”, and the professor was Azfar Hussain, and Azfarʼs another one of the guys whoʼs just a really, really good friend of me to this day and we still chat and hang out and stuff. [voices in background] But, anyways, he was, that was just one more step in really realizing the systematic nature of a lot of these problems yeah... and... [pause] Yeah so thatʼs, those were kind of a lot of the really shaping classes that I took, or the shaping people that kind of came into my life, throughout Grand Valley. Yeah and just helped me to realize the connection between different things that I was doing on the ground because Iʼd- Iʼve, Iʼve been doing a lot of work with homeless, homeless populations over on Division [Avenue], and ... and what not, and... yeah, and working with community gardens and stuff. And I can think that these were all kind of things I was doing a lot throughout my college experience, but, as I was, as I went through, and I learned more about it, I could really learn that there was, there was a real connection between homelessness and ecological destruction. SAYFIE: Mhmm... Page 12 �FISCHER: A lot of the same forces behind the destruction of rain forests were the same forces behind the destruction of peopleʼs lives yeah, and the same forces that were causing a lot of foreclosures, and ... yeah, ... just the way that... Yeah and even [pause] itʼs also related to the prison the prison build-up how thereʼs so many people being incarcerated and the vast majority of these are people of color and itʼs just ... Yeah all these, learning that all these things are really related in in a way thatʼs, thatʼs used to perpetuate a global capitalist system, and perpetuate a system where a very small minority of people can own the vast majority of the wealth. Where yeah , the top... the richest 20-percent of the population can own 85-percent of the nationʼs wealth. And itʼs just crazy because that means 80percent of the people, the vast majority of this countryʼs population, is forced to split , basically oneand-a-half pieces of the, of the pie. And itʼs , that just doesnʼt work of course youʼre gonna get, [pause] of course youʼre going to get people living in poverty and yeah yeah, and so I guess Iʼve just really realized that a lot of the work I do is to kind of... yeah, work to take that... take down a lot of institutions take down a lot of things that are very destructive but also to create a lot of alternative systems… create a lot of alternative food systems, where... which is kind of what we are trying to do with “Our Kitchen Table.” Alternative food systems where you donʼt have to be rich in order to get healthy food; where you can just have healthy food growing behind your house creating alternative education systems, ... education systems where you are taught how to communicate, and how to relate with, not only with the people around you, but with the nature around you and thatʼs pretty diametrically opposed to our current education system, which is basically educating you how to get a job in industrial capitalism… SAYFIE: [laughs] Right... FISCHER: ...And which is basically I think the goal in which if you look around, I think a lot of people here, if you ask them why are they in college, itʼd be to get a job [Jordan agrees] yeah and so [pause] thereʼs.. yeah, everywhere you look thereʼs to do... everywhere you look thereʼs potential to create alternatives, and more, .. yeah, just beautiful opportunities to create a lot of great things yeah. Oh, and I think, one more thing that I... if Iʼm going to talk about college, one thing that I have to talk about is my senior year I took a class called “Community Working Classics,” where I basically I taught in a jail, I taught in a prison, for for a semester, and that was definitely one of the most life changing experiences, as well. just to kind of see the reality that [phone bings] the people are made to live in, in the prison. And yeah... and to, and to discuss with - what I taught was a sociology class – and, yeah, just to... to hear their, their point of views, and to realize how... to realize how much different their, their world is than than just what Iʼve seen growing up in a pretty sheltered, pretty privileged life of growing up in a suburban life coming to a college where you can really – , being around life prisoners, being around people whoʼve gone through really some of the hardest places in life – you can realize how sheltered how sheltered you can be in the suburbs, [Jordan agrees] how sheltered you can be if you have money and yeah, just to kind of broaden your horizons in that way is, itʼs the most, one of the most valuable experiences of my life [pause] yeah, so that was really important. SAYFIE: When you were teaching at the prison, did you... Page 13 �FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: I mean, did you get the sense that these people wanted to learn, or were they... FISCHER: Oh my gosh, yeah, of course yeah, I think youʼre... I think just the way that this culture treats prison is kind of out of sight, out of mind, and, [pause] and youʼre not youʼre never explicitly taught in school that prisoners are evil people, and prisoners are just unmotivated and donʼt want to learn, but these are kind of the ideas that are slowly engrained in you ... and, so, yeah a ton of people have this, have this misconception of prisoners as these mean, ugly people, who, ... who, yeah are just kind of nonmotivated or whatever, but that couldnʼt be farther from the truth. ... yeah, and ... theyʼre, yeah, just as motivated, if not more, than anyone at college. ... very, and just so knowledgeable, and so many very valuable experiences and insights that you donʼt get, and you donʼt realize if you grow up in a suburb they just have so many valuable insights to these things that Iʼve never that Iʼve never really even considered because I was never exposed to it in the way that they were especially dealing with oppression they have so many, I- I was exposed... during that time when I was having so many conversations with inmates, I was exposed to so many realities and insights regarding oppression that that were so spot on, but I never would have realized them if I hadnʼt talked to somebody who actually went through it firsthand and experienced it so, ... yeah, so presently. SAYFIE: Yeah, thatʼs incredible. FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: Back to...what was the name of the alternative library? FISCHER: Bloom Collective. SAYFIE: Bloom Collective? FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: And thatʼs in Grand Rapids? FISCHER: Yeah, and thatʼs Fourth and Davis... SAYFIE: Okay...
 FISCHER: ...I think.
 SAYFIE: Okay.
 FISCHER: I think itʼs... yeah.
 SAYFIE: What, what sort of... books or movies... Page 14 �FISCHER: They have a lot of... SAYFIE: ...Inspired you, that... FISCHER: Oh, inspired me? Sorry. SAYFIE: Yeah, yeah... FISCHER: , okay, yeah this is a good question. ... okay. One book – Iʼll, Iʼll just kind of name a few of the books – well, one of them was obviously Martin Luther King Jr.ʼs autobiography... was one of the first that was really super inspirational. ... thereʼs a book called, a book by David Edwards called “Burning All Illusions” which is kind of... it kind of just came to me at the right time when I was, ... kind of starting to, ... Itʼs kind of a hard book to explain, but this book was kind of about... yeah, burning up, burning the illusion that, that things arise out of individuals... Itʼs kind of burning an individualistʼs paradigm or losing an individualist paradigm. Because a lot of times you can think, you can get into the paradigm of oh if I, if I buy this “fair trade” coffee then thatʼs, you know, thatʼs my, thatʼs my duty to if I want to fight for social justice, then Iʼd buy “fair trade” coffee or if I want to, yeah, if I want to fight for for the environment, then Iʼd buy a, you know eco-friendly Windex, or whatever [Jordan snickers] and yeah, and itʼs so easy to be, to get trapped into this individualistʼs paradigm but yeah, I think that that book is really about realizing that these things arenʼt, these things come as a result of, of certain systems that are in place yeah, Iʼm going to talk about international capitalism, these things result in that invariably, and itʼs not, and itʼs not something that, that can be fought by just everybody individually buying their own deal it has to be, yeah, kind of addressed at a, at a more root level thereʼs an awesome quote by Henry David Thoreau, which is “There are thousands of people chopping at the branches of injustice, but only one chopping at the root.” And I think thatʼs something that, yeah, theyʼre just having to see more and more, and itʼs adjusting things at the roots yeah, because, people doing the Montgomery bus, or people during the Civil Rights era, they didnʼt they didnʼt just try and change peopleʼs individual consciousness’s and try and overturn Jim Crow that way. They, they, they knew that the institution of racism and the way that it was instituted in these laws had to be changed, and then that would result in peopleʼs consciousness’s changing. And I think that the same is really applicable today, where thereʼs a lot of people thinking that “oh, once everybodyʼs consciousness’s changes, then these laws, and these systems, will change.” But I see it, I see it the other way, where once these system change, once these systems change, once these laws and whatever changes then thatʼs, then thatʼs what changes peopleʼs consciousness’s. And Iʼm, of course, itʼs important to raise consciousness, and raise awareness, but thatʼs not the only thing. SAYFIE: Right. FISCHER: Yeah yeah because... yeah, so that was, thatʼs one, that was one book another author that was really, really influential to me was Derek Jensen he is... Derek Jensen is super, super radical, yeah, , environmental guy. And at first I started reading him because Melissa gave us this one article by him, and I was ʻThis dude is crazy.ʼ [Jordan laughs] ʻ off of his record crazy.ʼ and I was , ʻyeah, I should read Page 15 �him just because because I reading seeing what really crazy, different points of view are.ʼ , [Jordan sniffles] and then the more I read him, I was ʻwell, maybe, heʼs actually kind of rightʼ [both laugh] , because I think that yeah. Heʼs... yeah his, just really talking about addressing the the realities of the environmental situation that we face. Which theyʼre just so, so hard, and, yeah 200 species going extinct every day, and , just really terrifying, depletion of water aquifers and just the fact that our basically, most of Western civilization is built on oil, and , not only for transportation, but just for our food system to work and for our energy system to work, and this is a resource thatʼs going to run out, [Jordan laughs and softly says “I know”] really, really dang soon. And just if, if weʼre get- putting more faith in it, and it just dries up, and thatʼs really, really disastrous and yeah I think that he made me really acknowledge the problem for what it is, and yeah, and just kind of reconsider how you go about addressing it accordingly yeah, and... thereʼs a lot of really good movies that I... that, thereʼs a movie called “The Corporation”. Thereʼs a movie thatʼs called “Food, Inc.”, which is this brilliant movie. SAYFIE: Yeah... FISCHER: Itʼs all about our food system yeah Iʼm just trying to think of other good movies that I d.. thereʼs one, thereʼs one called “Blue Gold,” which is about water yeah, just about the depletion of water aquifers and whatnot, and, yeah, just how we think about how we handle our fresh water resources yeah... they have just a, just a ton of really good stuff about that. SAYFIE: Yeah, itʼs interesting.
 FISCHER: Mhmm...
 SAYFIE: Did you you ever see “The Motorcycle Diaries”? FISCHER: No, what is that? Oh, is that Che Guevara?
 SAYFIE: Yeah, yup...
 FISCHER: Nice.
 SAYFIE: Yeah itʼs, yeah itʼs very good.
 FISCHER: Yeah, thatʼs one that I did want to see, I should watch it. SAYFIE: ... [pause] so as far as “Occupy Grand Rapids” goes... FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: ...no, no arrests in Grand Rapids? FISCHER: No arrests yet. That I, not that I know of. Unless when happened maybe yesterday night, I... but yeah, no arrests. this is... Itʼs crazy. Thereʼs a small police presence thereʼs no police presence in Page 16 �Grand Rapids. SAYFIE: [laughing] Yeah... FISCHER: Because in Wall Street that was the first thing I saw before I even saw protestors, I just saw lines of cops. SAYFIE: Right, yeah, theyʼre everywhere. FISCHER: It’s in Wall Street itʼs nuts you would swear that one-in-three New Yorkers was a cop for an occupation. [Jordan laughs] , thatʼs what they did for a living. Because thereʼs so many of them; I donʼt know how they get so many [Jordan continues to laugh]. But, ... but yeah, in Grand Rapids I saw three cops on the first day... SAYFIE: Mhmm. FISCHER: The whole day so it was a really different feel. [fingers tapping on desk] SAYFIE: So what, what would you say is the overall, transpiring goal of the ʻOccupyʼ movement? FISCHER: Thatʼs... I have a... they have, theyʼve, they have come out with a statement in in New York about what their , who they are. And I wish I had it on me right now. ...[Robbieʼs phone rings] Oops. But yeah they Iʼll just kind of try to say it from what I know itʼs kind of, thatʼs kind of a hard question that weʼve been asked a lot because itʼs not something anyone, individually, can say until the whole group has consents and says, ʻyeah, this is what our goal isʼ. SAYFIE: Right, right. FISCHER: But, yeah, they did release a statement thatʼs saying, yeah that theyʼre essentially anticorporate. Theyʼre very out, people who are very outraged at just the, just the glaring injustices that are obvious and right in the face of all these people who are just suffering yeah, just the, the very vast inequality between the rich and the poor, and between the amount that the rich have and the amount that the poor donʼt have [Jordan laughs] yeah... and so, yeah, the, I think that the kind of , that part of it, the ʻwho we areʼ part has kind of been, or is the process of, being decided the goals, or the demands, I guess you could say, are still definitely in the works because yeah, there are, there is such a vastly diverse group of people who are there there are there are union people. There are teachers. There are socialists. There are anarchists there are people with all these different goals or ideas of what should happen, and and yeah I think that this is a really good idea for them, or a really good chance for them to yeah, to try and... I donʼt know, work together despite those they might have a difference about where the exact end point is, but they can take at least the first few steps together and use collective moment to get something going. SAYFIE: Right.
 Page 17 �FISCHER: Yeah, so thatʼs that. SAYFIE: How would... I know you said itʼs hard to describe your po... your political... FISCHER: Yeah...
 SAYFIE: ...ideals, but what would, I mean, what would you...
 FISCHER: Personal goals? SAYFIE: Yeah. FISCHER: I could, yeah, I could say personal goals okay, I think that... One: I think that industrial civilization that is the industrial way of life, a way of life based on oil, based on extracting resources, ... and not putting them back, is inherently unsustainable. I believe that that yeah industrial, the industrial way of life as we, as we have it right now ..with fast super highways and .. yeah.. basically where people can live in buildings and really never even have to be in nature, and where.. yeah where our food system is .. based on 1500 mile supply lines. That, I believe, is unsustainable and it will not last .. and I believe that its important that we acknowledge that it wonʼt not last, and acknowledge that .. that thatʼs not a bad thing entirely .. thereʼs a lot of pain that will come, .. when .. yeah because a lot of people are very dependent on the system the way it is .. but..... but at the same time .. yeah I guess just.. when I picture a.. a future, I picture a future in which more people are able to connect with the people around them, and the places around them, and .. and rather than .. rather than being isolated in a room watching a TV, they can be, .. yeah in a group of people because , the reality is ..community is a necessary part of survival , .. and I think that .. our.. for the last however many years.. weʼve had the.. we’ve been able to be deceived into.. into thinking that .. into thinking that you can live completely isolated, and I think that .. Things oil... have been able to create this kind of false idea of what the world is ... yeah, and I think that we just really need to... to imagine worlds... that are vastly different than that, imagine worlds where ... that are more in line with the natural processes of the seasons .. More in line with the natural processes that are around us... yeah, because in reality ... its not natural to be so isolated from... from the outside world. It’s not natural to be so... So isolated that you can basically do the same thing every day of the year, regardless of what season it is... Yeah, I was thinkinʼ about that when I was ... I don’t know... there are people who have the same job or who... who get to their job the same way every day of the year, .. And if it’s... the only difference that they notice might be , “oh I have to shovel out my driveway... for a couple days of the Year." but .. yeah a hundred years ago , you notice the season change. You notice whatʼs going on around you. You notice when its .. you notice when its a full moon. You notice when its yeah, you notice when the grasshoppers stop .. singing. You notice when the different bird calls happen. And thats just a hundred years ago.. .. if you go thousands of years ago .. thatʼs all that you notice, thats where you get your knowledge, and thats where you get .. thats where you .. thats where you live. .. and I think industry and.. oil and all of these things have allowed people to kind of .. live in a place thats not really Earth.. you can live in an internet world or a TV world .. that's completely divorced from the actual real world reality outside of your.. outside of your door. .. and its just .. an example is.. on a.. there's.. there was an .. there was a.. imagine that there was an .. an insect Page 18 �or something that came through and wiped out the ash trees .. the ash boar, a couple years ago, it d wiped out ash trees all behind my house.. and , I donʼt know, I didnʼt really notice.. but the first time that Facebook went through a format change .. people are frickinʼ up in arms about that, theyʼre “change it back right now!” And so thats just another.. thats a testament to what world people live in. they.. people are just beginning to live in this world where what matters is the format of Facebook, what matters isnʼt the 200 species that are going extinct in the actual real world.. .. and I think that yeah.. that yeah.. so i guess to s it up I think that.. that yeah we are.. we are going to be forced to live according to the laws of the real natural world, and I think the sooner we can realize that, and the sooner we can work towards that, the better. .. yeah and so thats what Iʼm trying to do with my life is to work towards.. work towards that type of living, work towards ways of living that arenʼt dependent on industrial civilization, because industrial civilization canʼt and wonʼt be .. sustainable, and it wonʼt be permanent. .. and I think that yeah..the sooner we recognize that the easier the transition will be. SAYFIE: Do you think, because it almost seems if you were to say, yaʼ know.. just let everybody conse as much, say oil, as they can until it ran out then theyʼd have this epic collapse and revert back to this.. if people didnʼt develop alternative .. Sources of transportation, and that kind of thing, then they would kind of be forced back into [a natural way of living].. FISCHER: Yeah.. yeah .. yeah so I think that.. yeah that’s definitely a good point .. which is why I donʼt put a lot of energy into looking for alternative ways to power cars.. or.. because I donʼt want there to be cars. .. .. yeah.. and I think that a lot of these things that are done in the name of sustainability, and theyʼre done with literally all the best intentions, they can really .. a lot of times be served to just distract people, and to make them think that this.. this way of life can be redeemed, and that the industrial life can be salvaged when, I believe, the reality is that it canʼt. And so I try and do in the work that I do I try and .. do things that .. that arenʼt reliant on industrial civilization, which is putting a lot of work into community gardens, .. things getting people to re-learn .... skills that have been long lost, or skills that are being overlooked by things industrial.. industrial agriculture. yeah.. because yeah its just.. I think its great when people can learn how to be.. self sufficient in that way, where they can grow food for their own family, and the families around them. .. and kind of yeah.. learn how to preserve their own food, and learn how to.. yeah how to purify water from rivers, how to.. how to do these things which, yaʼ know, hundreds of years ago, or even a hundred years ago everybody knew how to do them. .. yeah.. I just think its so valuable to re-learn those types of skills. SAYFIE: Alright, is there anything else that you want to mention? FISCHER: I think Iʼm pretty good.
 SAYFIE: Well, yeah me too. Thank you for doing this, its been very eye opening. FISCHER: Definitely. END OF INTERVIEW Page 19 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0738af0ff908e16e94063584bcc99421.mp3 b97c6c85ad181da6c97189a98b78c160 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Fischer_Robby Title A name given to the resource Robby Fischer audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fischer, Robby Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sayfie, Jordan Description An account of the resource Robby Fischer is a Grand Valley State University Alumni. He talks about his experiences with activism in West Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5984733f3120b2a2d9bdf4c903a27c2a.pdf e72f147ff49acc8f3873f4c811d226c6 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Filiz Dogru Interviewers: Allison Kelleher, Ray Ramirez, Lukas Johnsen, and Jaci Cangealose Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/21/2012 Biography and Description Filiz Dogru was born in Turkey, came to the United States in 1990, and settled in West Michigan in August 2003. He is a professor at Grand Valley State University and an active member of the Niagara foundation and the Turkish American Michigan society. He discusses how he never felt different until moving to West Michigan, although the Grand Rapids area is improving on diversity. Transcript KELLEHER: So remember when I told you we were going to, the interview was going to be archived? DOGRU: Oh Boy, you are scaring me now. KELLEHER: I told you that for previous or for future research, if you want you, it can be used later on, or just for this project, it’s completely up to you. There is two of them you have to fill out, one of them is a copy for our teacher and one is a copy for Grand Valley’s records. DOGRU: Ok about this who will write, is it here in Michigan you are interested? Or in general in the world? CANCEALOSE: Let’s do both. KELLEHER: It’s for studies in west Michigan but it’s incorporating all different aspects. Yeah. DOGRU: Ok, Ahh. My previous interviews are not that serious, trust me. CANCEALOSE: Well we are required to do this. KELLEHER: Can I have your copy of the page… DOGRU: Ok final transcript like before you are presenting or before giving anybody, are you going to give it to me to read it? Because if there is any misunderstanding, I may say, oh, I didn’t mean this, is it? CANCEALOSE: I don’t think she went over that in class. KELLEHER: I don’t think she did either. Page 1 �CANCEALOSE: So we can ask her about it today. KELLEHER: We are presenting on Monday or Wednesday. DOGRU: Oh this coming Monday or Wednesday? CANCEALOSE: Yeah. DOGRU: Oh, so when I have time to see it? KELLEHER: We are gonna work on it this weekend, and we can give you…. DOGRU: This weekend I am not here (laughs). KELLEHER: Well we have… DOGRU: I am out of town. KELLEHER: We will do our best to get it done by like, when are you leaving? DOGRU: Saturday Morning. KELLEHER: Could we get it to you Friday if we work really hard and try to get this transcript done? It’s gonna be a lot but… DOGRU: If I can have it like Friday five o’clock or so. I can hopefully, I will check my e-mail, and get back to you by mid night or so, is that ok? KELLEHER: We will do our best to get it done by then. DOGRU: Ok, hopefully the questions are easier than this one. KELLEHER: Sorry. DOGRU: What do you want me to do? KELLEHER: You have to read it and give your initials. CANCEALOSE: Grand Valley makes us do this. KELLEHER: Both of these have to be done. DOGRU: Oh, this is my name right? KELLEHER: Yup. DOGRU: I wish you brought these. KELLEHER: Yeah I didn’t have them. DOGRU: Is that it? This one too? Page 2 �CANCEALOSE: Yup. KELLEHER: You can do it at the end if you want, since there is two of them and you had already done one of them. DOGRU: Ok. KELLEHER: If that’s what you like. DOGRU: I wish to do one of them. DOGRU: And today is 21st? KELLEHER: Yeah I didn’t have these with me yesterday. DOGRU: Oh, which one is me? KELLEHER: The printed name and then the signature. DOGRU: Yeah but both require my signature? KELLEHER: Is this supposed to be mine? CANCEALOSE: No you are the interviewer, you ask the questions. KELLEHER: We can get some white out. DOGRU: This is me? DOGRU: Alright guys let me see. KELLEHER: Sorry about that. DOGRU: You look so serious. KELLEHER: Sorry. DOGRU: It says could you please give me some information about yourself. DOGRU: Are you recording already? CANCEALOSE: Yes. DOGRU: You are serious? KELLEHER: We have to go back and listen to it. We just have to give it to her so she knows that we actually conducted the interview. DOGRU: Ok. KELLEHER: She is cool, she will let us. Page 3 �DOGRU: Full name is Filiz Dogru; do you want me to spell it? CANCEALOSE: Sure. DOGRU: D-o-g-r-u, I have one soft g in the Turkish alphabet, as opposed to the g in the English alphabet, that’s why it’s not Dog-ru but Dogru. And place of birth, is in Turkey, if I can have a paper? KELLEHER: Sure. DOGRU: In fact Turkey is called Turk-ey-ya, somehow in English they call it Turkey. And date is, oh that is a bad date, February 9, 1962. Ok I’m pretty old huh? Alright parents and siblings, parents are all passed away, siblings I have only one brother, ancestors, what would you want me to say on that? My grandparents, great grandparents, they are all passed away. KELLEHER: Where were they from? DOGRU: My mother’s side was the Balkan Turks, and my father’s side is from Anatolia, it is just regular Turkey, it is a long time they have been there. Life partner, I don’t have any. No marriage, nothing. No children. Education, I have three master’s degrees and one PHD. Religion is Islam. Community involvement, oh I am very actively involved in dialogue organizations, do you need particular names for that? Or just in general? KELLEHER: Yes please. DOGRU: I am an active member of the Niagara foundation, and I am an active member of Turkish American Michigan society. KELLEHER: Can you say that again? DOGRU: Turkish American Michigan Society. DOGRU: And professions, I am a mathematician, a university professor, political party, NOTHING. I hate politics; I don’t want to follow politics. This is my personal opinion anyway. DOGRU: When did you come to Western Michigan? August 2003, but I came to United States in 1990. DOGRU: How would you describe your own identity? I am a Muslim, Turkish American. DOGRU: Was there a particular moment in your adulthood or growing up when you were treated different because of your faith? Oh yea (laugh). Well first of all, growing up I was in Turkey, I came to the United States when I was 25 or 26 years old, and I didn’t felt anything until I came to western Michigan, it’s really funny isn’t it? Immediately after I come to western Michigan, I realize that I am different, not from the community, but I don’t know if that is related to my faith, or my dress code, or my accent maybe, or they realize my accent is from another country. I can’t pin point on that, but I definitely realized that I’m different. KELLEHER: What was it like in school? You said that you had three master’s degrees. Where did you get them from? Page 4 �DOGRU: I received a master’s degree at Brown University Providence, Rhode Island. It’s very diverse, and I didn’t feel anything was different because everyone was from somewhere. And then my second master is in Virginia Tech. That is also a huge research school too, so that is also very, very diverse. I didn’t feel anything, and also another thing is I didn’t live in the regular city. I also lived in the campus, at least you don’t feel you are different at the time, you just feel you are a student. It is all students there from different cultures and different ethics and things, and same thing; I got the third master degree from the University of Toledo. That is also very diverse school, I didn’t feel much. I earned my PhD at Penn State, in Pennsylvania. That is also a huge research school. Those schools, they are recruiting students from all over the world, you don’t feel some people are different and some are not, we are all, we do not feel anything. But immediately after I came to western Michigan, I wasn’t a student anymore; I wasn’t living in the campus. I had to find a regular apartment, I had to live in the community, and it’s a different approach with the community, you know? In that case yes, I felt it very much, in the mall, people are talking to you and it’s totally different than they were talking two seconds ago to someone else. And the cashier’s behavior, especially when I came here to the bank, I didn’t understand bank, cashier would be saying something about something and I would sorry I did not understand this and she would start raising her voice as if I don’t hear it. I told her ‘I am not deaf, please come down and tell me the term, what does that mean?’ And then they didn’t know how to deal with someone who looked a little different than them. That’s what I thought. KELLEHER: When you came from Turkey did you go immediately to college and live on the campus there or did you live in the community? DOGRU: No. The whole my life, I lived in always the college towns, always I was in the big schools, and always I was surrounded by those people. For example, at Virginia Tech, that is a small town, but the town is completely university. Penn State is like that too, the whole town is the university, you don’t see other people, everyone is faculty or for the university, or student, so even though it is a small town, you don’t feel it. Providence is a big city, but I lived since I was new at the time in the campus, I didn’t go around it that much, so I didn’t feel anything. And let’s see where else, here Grand Rapids was totally different because Grand Valley University, this university is separate from the city. It’s not the city is the university, so in that case you are some people know when I say I am working for Grand Valley they say ‘oh that’s great, my cousin’s daughter is going there.’ I mean it’s nothing close relation with the school. KELLEHER: So what made you choose Grand Valley? DOGRU: Job. So after I graduated I earned my PhD and I applied several places and got three jobs offer, I don’t know if you are family or how those work because every January we have mathematicians applying for jobs, we have a big meeting and in those meeting you can choose what jobs are good for you. Then you can apply. After you apply you and they like you, then they call for the interview. If they like you in the interview, then you get offered the job. I got offered several of them, I got three offers, and Grand Valley was the best of those three, so that’s why I came here. KELLEHER: You said that Grand Rapids was totally different because it was separate from the university. Can you talk about what your experience was like when you first came to Grand Valley and to the Grand Rapids area? Page 5 �DOGRU: Grand Valley was ok. I mean everyone somehow, someway went to graduate school. They know those kinds of environments; they came from outside the area to find a job, but outside the university is not very familiar. And still there are some, but it’s so different ten years ago and now, you can feel it, even Grand Valley did not have this much diversity. Now they are doing very good job to collect those students and faculty members. At that time, it was obvious, when you go into a meeting, or you go into some kind of gathering with the community, you are suddenly left alone there, you can see people looking at you a little differently, kind people, I’m not saying they are unkind, or bad. You can feel it, and that’s a very bad feeling, I had never felt that before. But it’s changing, I can definitely say that. There is a huge difference between ten years ago and now. KELLEHER: Did you ever feel different around your students or people that took your classes, things like that, how did your students react? DOGRU: Good question, very good question. I am a mathematician, I teach calculus, I teach geometry, whatever you can think of. In those classes, especially calculus’s, it’s not easy for the students, especially because some of the freshman are taking calculus. In the beginning, everything is interesting for them, I am interesting, different type of teacher, and especially the beginning because right this moment I think students taught students. They give the information about yourself, nobody knew me before, I was just there. They were staring at me, that fine, that’s okay, new teacher, they problem started, whenever they start getting bad grades. Good students usually don’t talk, if they like something in your class they don’t go around and say ‘oh it’s wonderful, it’s beautiful,’ but if one bad student in there doesn’t understand what you are saying, he immediately blames you have an accent, you are not talking English, this is coming up. In the first several years, the first three or four years, it was coming up. It came up very much. I was like ‘oh god, I have been here twenty years talking with these kids and they don’t understand.’ I have ninety students, five of them don’t understand, and those five student’s voices are out, but anyway, those kinds of things happen. I even remember once, one student went very well the whole semester, and suddenly he flunked the final. Everything was fine at the time, oh he was friendly coming in and out, and of course when you flunk in the final, your grade is automatically going down. It won’t fail it, but if it is A it becomes B, and B becomes C, and goes on. And after final he came and he said ‘you know I flunked because you know you are, you are…’ and I said ‘what? You know, what happened?’ He said ‘well you are not speaking well.’ I just looked at him, oh lady I am sorry. Whole semester, first exam, second exam, his quizzes, his homework, everything is done, but final is horrible and I’m not speaking very well? Ok that’s fine but I didn’t speak Turkish (laugh). You should have just told me, but anyways, those kinds of things happen. I am usually a very patient person, that is my personality. You remember several students from the beginning that they will blame immediately my English if they do not understand mathematics. I call them, come over, let’s look at it. One student I remember couldn’t do it, just couldn’t do it, he got mad and he slammed the door went. I just said okay, you learn more. KELLEHER: About how often does that happen? You have encounters with… DOGRU: No, I’m talking these things in about the first three years KELLEHER: The first three years. Page 6 �DOGRU: Yeah, the first three years. After that, as I said, the students are teaching, I mean talking to each other, and one generation to another generation. I think somehow, someway, before coming to my class, they have some information about me. KELLEHER: Okay. DOGRU: So that helps. KELLEHER: Yeah. DOGRU: So I’m talking about the first three years it was really bad. But went okay (laugh). KELLEHER: Did you ever encounter anything with other faculty? Not just other students, but with faculty? Any situations that were not quite right, where you, treated a certain way? By faculty, not just students. DOGRU: Mhmm. it is very unfortunate, but yes. I witness couple of things that even today I remember very well and it hurts. But the thing is, the good part is, forget about the negative. Good part is those people that hurt me in first couple of years, they already realize what they have done and they already apologized. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: So that is helpful. I mean, everybody can make mistakes. I can make mistakes too. But the good part is if you realize that mistake and you don’t repeat it, and at the same time, eh, make the other person think that you already know it. I did that mistake, but I regret it, and maybe not in clear words but actions helps a lot. So yes, it happened. KELLEHER: Would you mind telling us what happened? You don’t have to if you don’t want to. DOGRU: Right now the person who told this I really like and we’ve become very good friend, but without giving a name, that person, I don’t even say “he/she”, that person was kind of advising a new faculty members and we were two at that time and that person was advising the other new one and I was behind that person and I heard how advising, that person advising that new faculty member and then I approached and I let them know I was there and then same person turned back and said “oh, you know what, I’m advising that person, so let me give you similar advise to that, to you also, and then in her advice, telling me that standards was so high. Like, I don’t want to give into details, and it was so obvious. That person didn’t realize that I already heard what was telling to the other one, and then, for example if advice to that person is ‘do two of those, that’s enough,’ and then same thing, exactly the same thing and turn back to me and saying ‘do four of those, even four won’t be enough.’ That hit me very well but I didn’t do anything at that time. I like that person right now, and we are good friends. (Laughs). KELLEHER: That’s good. DOGRU: That’s good? Keep going? Page 7 �KELLEHER: Yes. DOGRU: Where are we? KELLEHER: We jumped around a bit. DOGRU: Oh we did? Okay, So are you going to ask? Or do you want me to go one by one? KELLEHER: We’re kind of skipping around. DOGRU: Oh okay then I’ll listen to you. KELLEHER: We got a little off track. I liked it. (Laughs from both) DOGRU: Well we can turn back if you want. I have time. KELLEHER: How did you… going back to your encounters in the classroom with other faculty… How did you deal with those kind of things in situations?” DOGRU: Okay, that’s a good question. Many, many times I sit down and think about it by myself. I was planning to be here for a long time. First of all, as a person I’m not a quitter. I don’t. ‘It is too hard, I quit! And go.’ No. I’m not that kind of person. At the same time, I don’t like the people step on me. I really don’t like it. And as I said just a second ago, about student, I’m a very, very patient person. First of all, I like talking. But the thing is I don’t do it immediately because when you confront people immediately, they usually get defensive and they don’t hear you, but they just try to defend themselves. So in that case, the first reaction from me is being quiet, and back off. And the, in the right moment, but I cannot forget, that’s the, that’s the thing. In the right moment, at the right time, I can bring it back and talk. Maybe some that person doesn’t except at that moment too, but at least I will let them know that I know these things. I’m aware of it. Because let me tell you one thing, , cultures are so different. I grew up in a Turkish culture, which you have to be very modest, very calm, and very… how can I say? Put the others first. But, honestly, I will say this - this culture, , translated here has a stupidity. If you put others before yourself, and if you act modestly, like for example in some of your success, here I can see people are really proud and say it. But, I grew up in a culture if you do big good things you don’t say it. Let other people say those things. So if you don’t say those things, people translate that one as if you don’t have a self-confidence, you don’t have , how can I say these things? Mean you are not sure about yourself. So they translate that way. It took some time for me to understand that. Because to be hble, to be modest, is my way of living. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: At the same time, you are humble and modest and suddenly people are thinking ‘Ha! You’re stupid. You don’t even say it! You don’t even proud of it!’ So this was a difficult thing for me. So I am trying to balance right now. I cannot just go around and say ‘Hey look I did this, I did that!’ I cannot do that because I couldn’t, I uh I wasn’t taught that way. I wasn’t grew up that way. But at the same time, right now I realize if you don’t say it, people are not taking it very well. So I’m trying to balance it a little Page 8 �bit. So this is the difficult thing. Oh, another thing. Forgiveness also really translates here stupidity. Yeah. If you are good, well for me it’s if you are good you forgive people if they make some mistakes. Maybe they can, maybe you can give a second chance. So in that case they really translate ‘Oh, she’s stupid and she doesn’t realize that.’ But it’s not. It’s totally different. , but I do I regret for that? No. Will I change it completely? No. Because there is a saying also in English the saying that ‘Killing with kindness.’ I think it works. I think it really, really works. If you go and start fighting, if you go and start confronting, people will make the problem bigger and bigger. Instead, just let the cool down a little bit in the environment and talk to people later on may effect more. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: My opinion, as I said. KELLEHER: Mhmm. That’s fine. , you mentioned that you noticed uh differences in the like reactions and and modesty and in forgiveness and in that kind of things. What was one of the first things that you noticed when you came from Turkey? DOGRU: Mhmm. KELLEHER: Like here, when you were first at school doing your master’s. What was one of the first things that you noticed culturally was a big difference for you that you had to come to terms with? DOGRU: For me, it’s diversity. I mean, not the feelings, but in Turkey, okay, when I came here first … let me put it together. In Turkey, we have different type of; we had to write nouns, I had been here more in fact. Uh we had over there so many different types of people because of the big Ottoman Empire. Its uh, we have European type, we have Asian type, we have Russian type, we have Russian type, we have Arabic type. I mean we have so many different features, different uh color hair color, eye color, and different types of people. And I never ever felt that. I mean, we didn’t know there was any difference until I came United States. And when I came to United States, I don’t know whether I should say this or not, but suddenly, still they were talking about ‘colored’ people. When I heard this term first I was shocked! Truly shocked! What does that mean? People is people. What does the ‘colored’ mean?! The first time I realized that there are still some differences do we have in Turkey? Oh yea. Right now we have tons of different people! But we never thought about it. We never think about it. And then later on after I came here they started some Turkish-Kurdish stuff in Turkey. I said ‘Uh, that’s not what I know!’ (Laughs) DOGRU: Because we live together, we don’t even know who is who. We just all same country people. Who cares where they from? That is the first thing shocked me here. I said, they immediately, they are still thinking about the, uh those days, and they are still thinking about the unfairness between it, and then I didn’t recognize it in the campus too much even though I heard it. But, when I came to Western Michigan, I felt it a little bit. They still have that kind of mindset. But as I said, in time, it’s going much better. Right now I can feel the difference. I hope that was the answer of… what was the question? I don’t know (laugh). Page 9 �KELLEHER: No, that was, that was perfect. Was there, you said you didn’t notice uh in Turkey everyone lives together and there a difference. You don’t notice a difference at all. DOGRU: Exactly. KELLEHER: Is there no… I just don’t understand because here, we treat people differently and it’s so unfortunate. , are no one’s treated differently there because of your ethnicity or your race… DOGRU: “No one. Because you didn’t know who was who.” KELLEHER: “Okay.” DOGRU: “Just just people. Your neighbor, your worker, your things. We never interested in where they come from. We never. I mean, we were interested in how good person is. How hard worker is. How, let’s see… how they are behaving to their neighbors and stuff. These are the more important thing for us. We never ever… well maybe I was young, so maybe that’s what. But even here, I mean young people know about those things. Sometimes even makes me think. If you guys don’t have, or if we don’t have here, just those celebrations like ‘Oh we have to celebrate that, we have to celebrate this,’ so even those emphasize. Or, so how can I say it? In school for example, uh, teachers sometimes give a talk. Saying that ‘Oh you have to behave same with this person, that person.’ I think that gives the students mind ‘Oh, we are not doing it? Or maybe it’s not supposed to be done that way that teacher is warning me?’ So this, I don’t know, I might be wrong as I, my observations is this one. We never thought about that person you have to behave good and that person you have to behave good. You have to behave everyone good! You don’t have to emphasize it so you are behaving good to that one so you have to behave good to this one too. No! Everything is same! You have to behave good to all. (Laugh) That’s it! KELLEHER: You’re not highlighting differences. DOGRU: Right, right, right! KELLEHER: Okay. DOGRU: This is a right word. Highlighting. They are highlighting here sometimes. KELLEHER: Mhmm, like with… DOGRU: Even, let me interrupt you, and this is a really interesting thing. I was hired here and many, many faculty members whose foreign origin comes from other country, they grew up here or they went to school here, maybe eh late ages and stuff. When they hired here, they didn’t ask ‘International Faculty,’ or more worse, ‘Foreign faculty.’ They never give any advertisement like that. I never applied for this ‘Foreign faculty’ advertisement. They look for ‘Faculty Members.’ But after I came here, I realize I’m already classified, separated, as ‘Foreign faculty members’ and this really bothers me and still bothers me. I still keep talking but nobody listens to me. (Laughs). I mean, yes, we may born in a different country but nobody hired me here, or offered me job anywhere saying ‘We are hiring you because you are a foreign faculty.’ Then I understand that. That means there’s a different class that they are hiring for that class. No! They didn’t give me anything separate. They are just saying ‘This is the job Page 10 �advertisement, this is the qualification’ and I applied for that. And then suddenly after I came to Grand Valley, not just me, they always call either ‘International Faculty,’ or worse, worse, worse is ‘Foreign faculty.’ Why am I foreign faculty?! I, I, I fight, I say it? Applied under the same conditions with everybody. There is no ‘foreign’ or ‘non-foreign.’ KELLEHER: Similar qualifications… DOGRU: Exactly! Qualifications is there, background is there, everything was there. They give me the same interview, uh… KELLEHER: Process. DOGRU: Yes, process, exactly. And then, they hired me! And why am I suddenly faculty member which is foreign?! That’s, that’s not good. (Laugh) KELLEHER: I just thought of… [Unclear] DOGRU: I think this helps you. KELLEHER: Oh, it does. This is great. We live, this building is two buildings down from the international housing. DOGRU: Uh-huh… KELLEHER: On campus, the Murray building, right next to Van Steeland is international housing so I just thought of that. DOGRU: So international students go there? KELLEHER: They have the option to apply to be, err, apply to live in international housing, and I just thought of… DOGRU: Why not just student housing? KELLEHER: Exactly. DOGRU: International? They already put you in a different chair. Done. And then they are saying ‘You are good to me; you should be good to that one too.’ That’s no. I’m sorry. (Laughs) KELLEHER: No, please keep going if… DOGRU: That’s, that’s it. CANCEALOSE: I have a question. You’re, you were born in Turkey. Do you have your U.S. citizenship? DOGRU: Yes I do. CANCEALOSE: When did you get that? Page 11 �DOGRU: it was a choice. It’s recently in fact because I worked more than nine years. After four, okay, let me tell you this process. After you become green card permanent resident after four years, you will be able to apply and have your citizenship. I waited like almost eight years. I didn’t apply immediately. So after eight years, I applied so I got that. CANCEALOSE: Was it a hard process? DOGRU: Not hard but long. CANCEALOSE: Yeah. DOGRU: Long, long process. Let me tell you another things, for example my brother and his family came to United States ten years ago, no twelve years ago and then they become a citizen after three, three and a half years I think. They become a long before then me. So its process is up to you I mean, when are you applying, when are you getting it. But I got recently, one or two years. CANCEALOSE: Oh, okay. DOGRU: I had green card though before. CANCEALOSE: Mhmm. KELLEHER: What made you change your mind? You said you waited. Most people wait after the four year process. What made you want to wait even longer? DOGRU: Well this, which is good, just time. I couldn’t find time to apply because as I said process is long. So you have to fill lots and lots and lots of forms and they sometimes send you for fingerprinting in somewhere. Sometimes Detroit. So you won’t have time to go there. So time was very difficult. At that time I wasn’t tenured also. I didn’t know whether I would be able to tenure or not. So I said ‘Well, just wait. Wait and see what will going, and how it goes the process.’ And then then I got tenured, I said ‘Oh, okay then let me get it.’ (Laughs) KELLEHER: Was there a time where you ever, or will there be a time you think where you want to go back to Turkey? And if... just don't want to be here anymore and you want to go back home? DOGRU: Was there a time? . Ph.D. is a very hard job, especially in mathematics, the reason I wanted to go back home and quit everything sometimes, whenever I get very, very stressed because of the work got too hard. But as I said I'm not quitting very quickly, that easy. Yes once in a while I said ‘Ok I'm leaving this things, I don't want to be doctor, I don't want anything anymore,’ that moment’s came but usually because of the work stressed. But that kind of moment never came after my PhD. I'm done with that, it’s ok. Yes work was hard from time to time but there's the expression or the saying in Turkish language, ‘I burned all my ships to go back.’ There's no way back now, I don't know does it make sense for you or not. I came with the ships but I burned them all so there's no way back. So this is my way home, that's it. KELLEHER: What made you decide math? Page 12 �DOGRU: Oh that's a long story, but this is a very classical I guess. From the childhood, (laugh), but it's true because I was really unique in my classes since from the elementary school. I was very enjoying mathematics and then my teachers usually picked me for mathematical competition, mathematical whatever we have some kind of program stuff. I was picked all the time, so that give me kind of proud and saying ‘ooh, I'm doing something good’ (laugh). And it continued, and mathematics opened me to go abroad. Opened the opportunity to give me opportunity to go abroad. So I came to United States. If I'm a chemistry major for example, or let's say biology. In those types of areas, not much foreign students can be able to find a job here. Mathematics is a little bit better, it's really interesting but when you have graduate school, every school has a different type of, let's say, math, biology, chemistry and those types of things. And especially the finance related schools, you won't be able to find a lot of foreigners in there, so you will just international, you will just go ahead and pick those schools and then people who are finding jobs from those schools, which originally from other countries is much less than people are finding jobs here, from other countries, in physics, mathematics, , engineering, those are more in here. I mean you can find a job better. KELLEHER: Why do you think that difference exists? You said it would be different if you were a chemistry major. It would be more difficult for you to find a position. DOGRU: That's right. I don't know. I think people who are here, especially in mathematics, American students, in other words are just born and raised in United States, they don't like mathematics. They say ‘We hate mathematics, we hate math!’ This is could be the reason, maybe it affects above levels, yes we have lots of American born faculty members and stuff but in big research universities, if you really go there. It's the foreign, ‘foreign faculties’ (laugh), are more over there. So that case, I think that education is from the bottom I think, from the elementary school, and especially in Asia and Balkan region and not recently but earlier in Russia. And those area are really strong in mathematics and physics and those kinds of things. I don't know, I mean I'm not education person in that subject, you know. KELLEHER: Do you think if you were still, if you were born here in the US would you still consider yourself Turkish, Muslim American, you claimed your ancestry, you still would have been able to get the same position? Or going off of when we were talking about the differences in being able to get the job and job opportunities, do you think you would have had the same opportunity to get this position or any of the other ones you were offered? DOGRU: You mean if I was born here, raised here, go to school here to prepare myself? KELLEHER: But you still practice your... DOGRU: My religion and my background and culture. KELLEHER: Right and you claimed your Turkish decent and you claimed that, just a hypothetical... DOGRU: I believe so. The reason is, I mean I don't know how good I would be at the time, my education would be where, I mean how much mathematics I would know or whether I would be able to do those PhD, asse that everything is done, I believe would the same qualification and the same time I would Page 13 �have the same job offers because those job offers or , those job posts, doesn't separate about the culture or the religion, about the what country you are from, about the you understand what I am saying? I mean whenever we search even right now I mean whenever we search some faculty position, for some faculty position, we just give the qualification and we put over there, what kind of things we are looking for in that person. And those things doesn't include their culture and their background and their religion. Those are totally different things, so it's a good thing in fact. So whether I born there whether I born here doesn't matter but all I need is match the qualification and you're what they are looking for. As long as they match I think they will be ok. KELLEHER: Will you tell us about your family? DOGRU: My family, as I said I'm not married and I don't have children, I don't have my own small family, but as a family I have my brother who is in Pennsylvania. He is the closest family right now I have. And he has two kids going to Penn state, so good. And then I have four cousins but we don't see each other much because they are in Turkey and I am here and travel is too expensive. Well you may say ‘well travel is not there but Skype is there,’ but everybody is so busy. So it's difficult. Once in a while yes in the holidays and here and there when some wedding ceremonies and stuff we call each other or something but other than that we don't want, we don't have, not want, but we don't have very close relations right now. KELLEHER: Do you get to see your brother often? DOGRU: Oh yeah, yes, almost every break, for example Christmas break and ser break. But he didn't have very demanding job before and he was coming and visiting me and I was going and visiting them but now he is working like 24/7 so it's hard for him to come but we talk on the phone. So yeah. KELLEHER: What made your brother, do you know what made your brother want to leave Turkey as well? DOGRU: yeah, I know very well because he, I don't know whether you guys remember or not, in 1999 there was a huge earthquake in Istanbul. Istanbul is the biggest city in Turkey, and in that earthquake my brother with two partners had a big shop that they were sewing and selling the coats, winter coats for man and woman. And they were sewing, it was very good business but unfortunately in that big earthquake everything is gone, because buildings are over and all the customers, the people who are buying from them and selling there are gone too, and the business is just pffff, disappeared. And then those three partners decided to separate, everybody, some of them went to other city, some of them stayed in Istanbul. At that time I was forcing him to apply for a green card. I don't know whether you are familiar with the green card or not. Green card is permanent residency in the United States. And he was applying and that year it was third year for him. There is a green card lottery every year in United States, they have some particular nber of people, for example they were saying 500 people from Turkey, 500 people from, I'm just throwing those countries names, Russia, 500 from Mexico, 500 this, 500 that. So they are making a lottery out of those applications and then they are choosing people. My brother in the third year had this situation, the losing everything. And they got the lottery. They got the green card. So he called me and he said ‘well what we going to do? Can we come?’ ‘Cause they didn't speak English, Page 14 �they didn't have money. That was little difficult at that moment. And I said ‘Well I'm here.’ I was a student but let's try. In the worst case you'll go back and start all over. And then they said ok and they came. At that time kids were very young. My nephew was 9 years old I believe, it's the third grade. And then my niece was the first grade student. They came and the third day we put them in school, without speaking one word of English, my goodness. So they came, they start with the very small thing, like my brother went and washed the dishes at one restaurant and my sister in law babysit for some people. That cased they slowly learned English, the kids of course they grabbed English very, very quick. They helped their parents, I helped a little bit and then they decided ok, we're going just fine, let's go on, let's keep going. Then they're going right now, they're still here. And my nephew right now is the third year college student. Can you believe that? And my niece just started this year, she’s a freshman. So yeah. They decided to be here too. KELLEHER: Do you know of if they've had any encounters, unfortunate encounters where they were treated differently, that you know of? DOGRU: I don't think so, no. The reason is that they live all their lives in Pennsylvania State College, I don't know if you're familiar with that town or not, that town is a very, very diverse place. So in that case there are lots of people that came from other countries. If you are in the environment, you don't feel it. You don't know that you are different because everybody is different in that case. If you call different. So everybody is han, here we go (laugh). Children of God. KELLEHER: Will you talk about the organizations you're involved in? DOGRU: Oh sure! my organizations is the Niagara Foundation. Niagarafoundation.org. I'm doing commercial right now (laugh). It's nonpolitical, nongovernmental, and nonprofit organization. Completely volunteer based and they are trying to promote the dialog and friendship, all the good things you know in the society. And they are doing these things on so many different levels. For example, this Niagara Foundation is best organization. In 11 states is included, Michigan is one of them. So what they are doing is they are having dialog dinners, annual. Almost every city. In those they are bringing all the community leaders together in that dinner. And then we have always three speakers and then we have always a topic, for example the last one was art of living together. So they give a speech on that and with the nice good Turkish food, so we just discuss those things and then we have annual again every city in Michigan. Abrahamic dinners, we put those in that case we invite religious leaders and religious communities to get together. For example the last one was in Alni house here and topic was altruism. And we invited one Jewish, one Christian and was Muslim speaker. They talked about that and we have seminars for example, on 24th, today is what? 21St, I believe it's the 24th at Ann Arbor. Yesterday was in Lansing. There are two seminars called “Heroes of Peace” so in every culture whoever worked very hard for peace, one person will talk about that person. For example Mother Teresa is one of them, Gandhi was one of the topic, and Goolen was another topic. And there are several of them right now but we can check. And then we have for example two weeks they go in Lansing we had for the woman's history month. We had woman panel perspective of all three woman leader from the community. One was senator, the other was medical doctor, and these are all from different communities and then one was dean. Those three ladies talk about their difficulties; the questions like you are asking me right now, it's very similar. So we asked those questions to them and then they gave Page 15 �beautiful presentation. So that helped for the society too. And then the Niagara Foundation, I can go on and on I don't know, you can stop me at any time. And then we can have visitation of the nursing homes, visitation of the young children stays without mom and dad. Foster care. Orphanages, yeah those kinds of places and then they help for the food banks and let me see what else. Oh, that's my favorite one which is the children's day. Last year we had it at Wayne State University and this year they are having it again. In that every single culture in the United States the children coming and performing their own dance, song, things, and so colorful and so beautiful. You can go to the website and see more. And see all the video tapes they have over there, it's so beautiful. And last year even though it was the first one, 17 different ethnic groups send their children for some performance. It was a beautiful one, that was my favorite, anyway. I can go on more, there are luncheons, fors, so many things, visitations and stuff but I'll cut if off. KELLEHER: What about the Turkish American society you mentioned? DOGRU: Very good, in fact this Niagara Foundation and Turkish American society are kind of sister organizations. Niagara Foundation more on the dialog among the societies, among the communities and Turkish American Society is more on cultural stuff. So it's going on the lots of, for example it will be soon, next week sometimes, I'd have to check the date. It will be henna night, do you know henna night? Henna night is the night before the marriage. Girl's friends get together in one house and have a big celebration. Only girls, only girls! Sorry (laugh). Big celebration and then they are culturally, represent those celebration in Ann Arbor, or Detroit, they are doing it this year. It is nice stuff is going on but not just one or two, I mean it's a lot. I cannot list them right now, it’s not possible. So they are yes they are sister organizations but their work is a little bit different. DOGRU: And then, Niagara Foundation… I can go on and on, I don’t know. You may stop me any time. And then we can have, uh, visitation of the nursing homes, visitation of the, uh, young children stays without mom and dad… KELLEHER: Foster care. Orphanages. DOGRU: Orphanages, yeah those kind of places. And then they help for the food banks and, let me see what else. Oh! That’s my favorite one which is the Children’s Day. Last year we had them at Wayne State University and this year they are doing it again and that, every single culture in United States, the children uh coming and performing their own dance, song, things. And so colorful and so beautiful. You can go to website and have more and see all those web videotapes they have over there. It’s so beautiful. And last year, even though it was the first one, 17 different ethnic groups and their children for some performance. It was a beautiful one. That was my favorite, well anyway. I can go on more. There are luncheons, fors, so many things, visitations, and stuff, but I’ll cut it off. KELLEHER: What about the Turkish-American… uh… Michigan Society that you mentioned? DOGRU: Very good. In fact, this Niagara Foundation and Turkish-American Society are kind of sister organizations. Niagara Foundation… eh… more on the dialog among the societies, among the communities. And Turkish-American Societies is more on cultural stuff. So it’s going on, lots of, for example, it will be soon, next week sometimes. I have to check the date. It will be Henna night. For Page 16 �example, do you know Henna night? So Henna night is a night before the marriage, eh, girl’s friends get together in one house and have a big celebration. Only girls, only girls, sorry! (Laughs) Big celebration and then they are culturally represent those, eh, celebration in Ann Arbor, or Detroit they are doing it this year. So, it is nice stuff is going on. But not just one, two, I mean it is a lot. I cannot list it right now. It is impossible. So they are, so they are yes, sister organizations but their work is a little bit different. DOGRU: Different targets. Okay. We, uh, for, as part of our class had to watch a video. … it was called, , 30 Days. I don’t know if you’re familiar with 30 Days. , they take, err. In this video we watched they took a practicing Christian and they challenged him to live 30 Days as, with a Muslim family. And he had to participate in the things they participated in, dress the way that they’re supposed to, eat the same food, go to, uh, , practice their faith, and it was a really interesting video to watch. And it, we have one of our questions for you was, Muslims are depicted differently on the television. And the media twists things around in almost all aspects of life. And I was wondering what your, , kind of take was on the way, uh, Muslims are viewed through the media’s eyes… if you have an opinion on that. DOGRU: Well, unfortunately you can hear right now it’s very little positive things about Islam or Muslims. Well, (sigh), it is really unfortunate but right now one good thing. I usually pick the good things. In fact, one good thing, uh, people, especially the young generation: eager to learn before decide. So, the older generation when I look or talk, whatever they hear from the media, they just have it. And unfortunately since media doesn’t talk very positive, then they have very negative view towards Islam and towards Muslims. But, as I said, young generation is little bit more curious before taking it in, maybe because of the technology. I don’t know. They know the internet, they know the Facebook. They can communicate much faster than older generation. Even me, I mean you are, you guys are much better than me. And then they are learning. And they are can reach the information easier, faster. And then they decide their own instead of uh, listening someone else’s opinion about something. Which is a very, very big plus for me. , how can we change the media? Can we do it? Mmm… not very soon. The reason is I’m saying this is a recently I learned that it was in the internet again. There is a special, uh, company. It’s really paid with the big budget and their job is create a bad media against Islam. And then the company beside this, uh, fear.inc. Fear dot I mean information is in here. So they give incorporations. So if you read that thing, they give who is donating that money, how much money, how they are working, what they are doing. And there is a huge things going on behind the scenes. So it’s very clear that there is a active, , work just, just, just to be bad publicizing Islam and, ah, Muslims. So in that case, that will be always there. It won’t go away. But, as I said, I mean, without learning, the young generation usually don’t fall into that… hole. So which is good. And about Muslims, , I cannot say all of them are nice. Muslims are, Muslims are also a han being. And there are bad ones too. There are the ones that I can’t even see and hear sometimes and I want to slap them! So, there are. Unfortunately, just looking at those people and then decide about their religion, that’s a wrong decision. In any religion. In Islam, in Christianity, on Judaism, or Buddhism, or whatever, or Hinduism, whatever you are approaching. You cannot judge a religion by looking at just one or two people. Could be those two people are not even practicing. So, but they call themselves Muslim, and they call themselves something else. And then so then the whole religion is getting the bad influence? No. That’s not right. If someone wants to learn about Islam, or Muslims, or Christianity, or Judaism, they supposed to learn from the right sources. And it is really hard, I can tell. I mean, how can you decide which is right, which is wrong? And for us, one Page 17 �good guidance is always there, as a Muslim, by myself. Sometimes some books even can confuse me. Uh, the Quran is my first guidance because that never ever changed; that’s the good part. From the beginning, ‘till now. Go to Malaysia, go to Indonesia, go to Arabia, go to Turkey, go anywhere! It’s still the same. I know sometimes it’s hard to understand. I know we have to read the translation not the real one. But still, that’s the best guidance in the moment that we cannot decide. We confused. That is, that is what I can say on that. But, of course. I mean if you, if, if you want to learn good sources and good references, you can see, I mean, if somebody who’s not practicing Islam. Somebody who’s, eh, not doing anything related to it and suddenly comes and talks about Islam. If you listen that one, how healthy is that? I mean it’s very obvious and logical. All you need to do is more, mean you can look at people’s life even you can decide, ‘Oh! That person is doing good in her or his religion.’ You know? And plus, that you said Christian lived in a Muslim family… this is a good gesture. It’s good. But to force people to live in somebody’s home and somebody’s culture, why? It’s not necessary. We supposed to celebrate our differences and our commonalities. Why do, he’s wonderful with his belief, Christian. And she or he is wonderful with his/her belief, Muslim. So why not put them common ground and let them practice that and let them practice that. We have to have a differences. We cannot put everybody in a same clothes. That’s impossible! We have to have the differences. That’s the beauty. The Niagara Foundation is in fact emphasizing this one a lot. One thing I forgot, can I go back and tell one more thing about it? Uh, when I say differences and stuff in them… we have every year, Noah’s Pudding celebration. I don’t know whether you’ve heard about it or not. Do you know? , Noah’s Pudding: everybody knows Noah, right? Is a prophet long time back, had flood, lots of animals and his, eh, ship. And then flood is gone and was everything was out and happens. Good! Very good. In that time, at the end of the flood, eh, the food inside the ship is almost finished. And they had little bit of this, little bit of that, of rice and nuts, and whatever you can think of, grains, and fruits, dried fruits and anything. But everything is little by little. But they have to have a big dish to eat; maybe the last dish but big dish. What they do is put altogether and cooked. Niagara Foundation makes it every year. Same dish. We call it Noah’s Pudding. So many different things at the same time! That dish is delicious, sweet dish. It’s delicious! So, we look at people like that! I am Muslim, somebody’s Christian, somebody’s Jewish, somebody is... uh… Hindu, somebody’s Buddhist, somebody is something else that I don’t remember right now. That’s okay. We come together and we can make a very good Noah’s Pudding. Trust me. (Laughs) Maybe I should bring Noah’s Pudding here to share with everyone. That, I should do that. You give me idea, okay! I’ll, I’ll try. KELLEHER: … going back to, uh, before the story about Noah’s Pudding, , you talked about the differences: let them practice this, let these people practice this. In the video, when you said you can’t uh, look at two people and get an idea for an entire culture, you can’t get an idea and an understanding. That’s the realization that , this man, this Christian man came to when he spent the 30 days with the Muslim family. And it was, he said almost the exact same thing, he said ‘you can’t blame (in reference to he heard a lot about 9/11 and the treatment of Muslims after that time.) He said you can’t blame a country or a religion or a group of people for the actions of five.’ And his time that he spent in, with, in the 30 days was really a way of educating himself about it because he didn’t know about it. And it was wonderful to see how his viewpoints turned and I just… DOGRU: He’s, he’s right. I mean, you cannot just go on and see a couple bad people and then say ‘oh, that religion is bad.’ But you don’t know the billions and billions of people following that religion maybe Page 18 �is good, you know? So it’s kind of very, very difficult things. , knowledge is important. If people know what is what, then they know better. In that case they won’t decide with the one or two people, obedient or behaviors. Definitely. But I don’t know how to increase the knowledge, well, that is my goal too. KELLEHER: As part of your organizations. DOGRU: Exactly yeah. Inviting people and trying to tell. , also I blame some Muslim people too. They were too closed before 9/11. They weren’t, integrated in the society. You understand what I’m saying? I mean, they were, they just lived in their own community. Which is not right. You have to know your neighbor. You have to help your neighbor. You have to say hi to your neighbor. This is Islam. But unfortunately, before 9/11, we had, well, somehow Muslim community here and they don’t mix up with others. So that was bad too. Right now, that’s what we’re trying to do. I mean because, han being is han being. If you have children, you love them. If you see something bad, you hate them. If you, if you are hungry, you love good food! Right? Han being is a han being. I mean, Mom, just think about this. Mom and their children. Do you think is any different than any other culture than Muslims? Muslims there, this country, or some other religion here in this country. Do you think mothers and children relation is different? No. Their love is exactly the same way. And everybody’s cry… One person told me that, it was really, (sigh) , I will just, I told him you are ignorant. He said ‘well I didn’t know that Muslims could sit and cry too.’ I said ‘what are you talking about!’ You are… because they are always fight? In their eyes they always fight. They always like fighters and they supposed to not cry at all. They are han idiot! I’m sorry. (Laughs) No! They laugh, they cry, they work, and they have friends, they have family. They are exactly the same. Because han feelings are the same. Doesn’t matter where you’re born, what kind of religion you belong to. Well… knowledge. KELLEHER: Do you think that goes back to how you are portrayed in the media? DOGRU: Probably, yeah. Probably. Right now is much better, as I said. Internet is much better. Because the years I came here, uh… 1990, there wasn’t much internet at that time. I mean we didn’t have, we had email and stuff but internet was totally different thing. I mean we didn’t have that kind of thing, information. At that time on TV there were special channel about the religion. Sometimes I remember in front of that channel, sit down and cry. Because of what they were saying about Islam. And I was thinking, not because they were saying, and I was thinking… people who doesn’t know listen this one and they are really thinking, Islam is this. It’s such a different knowledge. My goodness. How could they say it, but they were saying it. But right now I’m happy because, eh, generation like you, they found millions of them. And they can pick. They can decide. KELLEHER: There’s a TV show now on TLC, , called Muslims in America. Do you know that? I haven’t been able to watch it. DOGRU: How is it? I mean is it good? Negative or positive? KELLEHER: I think it’s… I think its main point; I read a synopsis about it is. DOGRU: I don’t have cable so… Page 19 �KELLEHER: I think its main point is to highlight, is education, to educate people. That they’re not, like they are hans, like you said. And at least this is what I’ve gained. Just from my little bit of reading I’ve done and watching the previews for it but… you know that they are people too and just living their lives. And that they’re treated differently just for living like all the rest of us. That’s my understanding. DOGRU: It is changing though. We have a lot of hope for you guys. Young generation and your kids. KELLEHER: Are you able to interact with, uh, other Muslims here in your community through the Foundation and through…? DOGRU: Through my Foundation. Most of my Foundation people are in Lansing. I keep Lansing very often to meet them in some kind of activities to join and everything. And at the same time there’s a very nice, uh, group of Muslims here. Uh, international from many, many different countries. They are Americans, they are Malaysians, there are Turkish, (laughs), there are some other ethnic groups but they come together sometimes. Yes I join them many, many times. Not very often because we are so busy and school. Whenever I have time. Let’s say that way. I go and join them. Especially in the holidays. We get together to celebrate the holidays. So in that case, yeah. I know them. But not every day, every night like, uh, not every week. Everybody’s working. KELLEHER: Well… I can’t think of any other questions, can you? Do you have any questions you can think of? CANCEALOSE: Nope. Not that I can think of. KELLEHER: Thank you so much! END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5e944f4f1f1de1fd0969b22f37c7dd2.mp3 b61b24e9b109f1a4d4b446dcd7cb873b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Dogru_Filiz Title A name given to the resource Filiz Dogru audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dogru, Filiz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kelleher, Allison Ramirez, Ray Johnsen, Lukas Cangealos, Jaci Description An account of the resource Filiz Dogru was born in Turkey, came to the United States in 1990, and settled in West Michigan in August 2003. He is a professor at Grand Valley State University and an active member of the Niagara foundation and the Turkish American Michigan society. He discusses how he never felt different until moving to West Michigan, although the Grand Rapids area is improving on diversity. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2c0af2a1c11063ed344b4255a34963e.pdf 0b82b6a3a6e5bc67320cc4eb5e509b40 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Kadi DeHaan Interviewers: Kelly Petrauskas, Andrew Felice, Fred Helms and Zachary Felice Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/14/2012 Biography and Description Kadi DeHaan was in a car accident when she was in high school. She lost feelings and use of her legs. She has been in rehabilitationand is learning muscle memory. She is in great progress toward her goal of walking again. She discusses her accident and how it has changed her life. Transcript PETRAUSKAS: Could you please give us some basic information about yourself? DEHAAN: Yes. first of all today is March 14th it’s a Wednesday evening at about 7PM. My name is Kadi DeHaan and I’m 23 years old. My birthday is April 22, 1988. I come from a family of four, and I have two older half sisters as well, and one younger sister and I have my parents still. we are in Byron Center Michigan. I was born in Grand Rapids and I grew up in Byron Center my whole life yeah. PETRAUSKAS: Airight, could you tell us a little bit about your childhood? DEHAAN: Yup. When I was a child I remember me and my sister were really close. We were really good friends. we always, my morn always tell us stories “You always had your sister sit there and you’d have her play teacher and have her listen” and I remember we’d always go to my grandpa’s. He had a pool, we went swimming there a lot. We’d have friends over there. in Kindergarten I had a best friend his name was Jeremy. I came home and said “Mom I met a cute boy on the bus today” and she thought that was pretty funny. I didn’t tell her what I learned, I just said I met a cute boy. And, him along with like four other friends lived right behind us. since I was little we went camping every summer, started out at the Yogi Bear camp grounds in Grand Haven and Silver Lake. LAJDZIAK: How old is your sister, is your sister pretty close to your age? DEHAAN: My younger sister is two years younger than me. We hang out a lot, yup. She’s my best friend. My two older half sisters are 35 and 31. They’re both married and have kids, but we still see one of them pretty often. LAJDZIAK: Alright, they still live in Michigan? DEHAAN: Yeah, one lives in Holland and one lives in Hudsonville. Page 1 �LAJDZIAK: How old’s your grandpa’s who you said you used to go swim at? DEHAAN: he passed away about ten years ago. LAJDZIAK: And he used to live...? DEHAAN: He used to live on 64th street which was right across the street from us. LAJDZIAK: Oh airight, so this isn’t your first place? DEHAAN: No, this isn’t my first house. We actually lived next door for 9 years and we’ve lived here for three. LAJDZIAK: Oh, alright. DEHAAN: But otherwise we grew up on 64th street and like Byron Avenue. LAJDZIAK: Airight. DEHAAN: Hrnhmm. LAJDZIAK: Want to go on to more of uh, middle school and..? DEHAAN: Yup, in middle school I pretty much had the same friends. I started playing volleyball which I really enjoyed. I was the setter. And I was just learning as I was starting but it was a lot of fun to me. still went camping in middle school I guess I’ve done that since I was a baby. I remember in middle school and the beginning of high school me and my friend Jill used to go roller skating every week at the Byron hot spot or fun spot or whatever it was called.other than that yeah we went roller skating. Oh, I remember we’d go to the mall like every Friday night too. We’d play at that Kahunaville. They had games there and stuff. LAJDZIAK: In Grand Rapids? DEHAAN: In, at Rivertown yeah, in Grandville, yeah. Actually I did that with my friend Kara. She started to become...her and Jill were my two best friends in Middle school. And then as I went on to highschool I still had the same friends then I started dating Mike Reading. Uh, we dated for about a year about a half, still played volleyball in high school. I went to the school dances. I enjoyed doing that. Really just to hang out with my friends, we’d do normal...hang out at each others houses whatever PETRAUSKAS: So how long have you played volleyball, when did you first start playing volleyball and when, how long and how late did you play volleyball. DEHAAN: I played volleyball from 7th grade until 10th grade. PETRAUSKAS: And was that the only sport you played throughout that period of time? DEHAAN: Yes. That was the only sport that I played. yeah. PETRAUSKAS: Did you play any recreational, like at home, with your friends at the beach? Page 2 �DEHAAN: I played at the beach and with my friends. Rollerblading was my favorite thing to do, I loved to rollerblade. PETRAUSKAS: Would you go certain places for rollerblading, would you go down any certain trails? DEHAAN: We’d go down the Kent trail and then I’d also go in Grand Haven just all over town. PETRAUSKAS: And so tell us about like your freshman and sophomore year in high school. Just kid of basically like you said you went to a bunch of dances and stuff, like how many dances did you guys have each year? DEHAAN: Ok. like each year we had homecoming, sweatheart dance and then prom was junior and senior year. I went to most of them ‘cause I was dating this guy and we had to go together. yeah. LAJDZIAK: You dated him through sophomore year then, 10th grade? DEHAAN: Yes. Actually up to 11th grade. LAJDZIAK: Up to 11th grade...and was he the one you were chasing. DEHAAN: Yes. LAJDZIAK: Airight. PETRAUSKAS: Hahaha. LAJDZIAK: I guess I shouldn’t move into that then haha. I was just wondering. PETRAUSKAS: So, you said you were dating for about three years or so? DEHAAN: We dated for like a year and a half. Like the last six months of the relationship wasn’t great so, like we were gonna break up soon anyways. LAJDZIAK: That was around junior year? DEHAAN: Yeah. LAJDZIAK: Junior year.. PETRAUSKAS: So what kind of music did you listen to back in the day? DEHAAN: Oh, I thought I was ganster back in the day so I listened to rap music, drover my car really fast, windows down. Yes, I thought I was pretty cool. PETRAUSKAS: And what kind of car did you drive? DEHAAN: I had a ‘97 Pontiac Bonneville. My mother gave it to me. PETRAUSKAS: That was very nice of her. DEHAAN: She got a new one. That was her old car. Page 3 �LAJDZIAK: Cool. DEHAAN: Mhmm. FELICE: So when you were driving really fast with the windows down and the music up were you being safe? DEHAAN: I would get on the highway, I was just telling my teacher this the other day, I would get on the highway and I would go like a hundred. So stupid. I think of it now like I was crazy. LAJDZIAK: Yeah.. DEHAAN: Mhmm. PETRAUSKAS: And had you ever been pulled over? DEHAAN: No. PETRAUSKAS: No? DEHAAN: Nope. LAJDZIAK: No tickets? DEHAAN: No tickets. PETRAUSKAS: That’s good for you. LAJDZIAK: Did you get your permit when you were 16...14 and 9 months? DEHAAN: Oh I got it probably the day I could get it, yeah ‘cause when I was..before I could drive I would mow the lawn and I would drive my moms car up and down our little cul de-sac here like, for hours. So I was very excited to get my license. LAJDZIAK: Yeah, kind of living out here, with all the space you could get on different things whether it’s a lawn mower or a four wheeler or.. DEHAAN: Yeah. We had a four wheeler too. (Whispering): So should I say that one day I was hanging out with my boyfriend and we got in an argument and tell that whole story? LAJDZIAK: Yeah, yeah. PETRAUSKAS: Ok, so tell us a little bit more about your junior year. What happened after you sophomore year? DEHAAN: Ok, my junior year I was just having so much fun in high school, I loved it. I hung out with my friends a lot. I wasn’t home much, I was always with my friends. a couple months into the school year on October 8, 2004, I was hanging out with my boyfriend at the time and we had gotten into an argument and he left his house and I followed, I was gonna go home. I was driving behind him, trying to catch up with him, and the road, the roads were not great. It was dark out, it was raining. I was driving, I Page 4 �remember I was driving over. I came over the hill and I saw the red light and thought “oh ,it’ll turn green soon, I can just go and speed around all these people and I can catch up to him. Well I thought wrong and I hydroplaned and went into oncoming traffic where a car hit me and I flew out of the windshield and my car blew up after that, which I didn’t have my seatbelt on which I was lucky for then So the ambulance came, I don’t remember much after this but I guess I was giving them everybody’s phone numbers like my moms, my boyfriends and I was like “you have to call them! Blah blah blah.” And so they brought me to the hospital and they got a hold of my parents...and they, my parents came down and when my parents got there, they wouldn’t tell them what happened to me. They said they had to go in this back room with somebody and my mom, she just knew I was dead. She, she just knew it because they always, they tell what’s wrong with whoever’s at the hospital unless like something really really bad has happened. So when the doctor finally came out and told my parents what happened, I broke my neck and I have a C5-C6 spinal cord injury which means, I couldn’t move my legs, my hands were affected uh, but I still had feeling. But I couldn’t move any thing. (Whispering): So do you want me to just go on, keep going into the care. PETRAUSKAS: So like how long...you had said you passed out blacked out after you came out of the car. was there a certain time you remember regaining, like, thought and knowing where you were? DEHAAN: Yeah, it was a couple days later. The first memory I have of being in the hospital is uh, one of the nurses washing my hair. LAJDZIAK: So you were in the hospital for a couple...? DEHAAN: I was in intensive care for three weeks and at first I couldn’t even breathe on my own. They had like a ventilator down my throat helping me breathe and they didn’t even know if I would get off that. LAJDZIAK: Wow. DEHAAN: Mhmrn. PETRAUSKAS: And have you talked to your parents about that first day and how they felt when they first received that call or anything along those lines? DEHAAN: Yes, I actually just talked about it to my mom yesterday actually and she said she was just numb. She doesn’t remember like the first two weeks, she wouldn’t come home from the hospital and finally when she did for a little bit to sleep she got a call from her friend and her friend was like “are you sitting down? Are you sitting down?” She’s like “what are you talking about?” And she’s like “I heard it on the news, Kadi died.” And my mom’s like “what?! I was just up there, no she didn’t.” And so my mom freaked out, hung up and called my dad and was like “is she ok?! Is she ok?!” And he’s like “Yes she’s fine, the news had it wrong. She’s perfectly fine, I’m sitting here right with her right now.” And my mom’s like “you’re lying to me, just because I’m not there!”and he’s like “no I’m not, she’s really ok.” So just, she doesn’t remember.. she didn’t even remember how to get home. She couldn’t’ even think. LAJDZIAK: How well, like other family like your sister that you’re close tO... Page 5 �DEHAAN: My sister was a mess too and I guess the first time I got to talk to her I said “Ally it’s ok, the doctor said I just might have to be in a wheelchair a little while.” And she just started bawling, but I just... LAJDZIAK: So they came to the hospital too? DEHAAN: Yeah, they were there that night, yeah. And I still had a sense of humor, I was, I told my mom I was like, before I was going in the surgery I was like “mom, will you check my nose for any boogers? Like there might be a cute doctor in there or something,” LAJDZIAK: How about like grandparents, family friends, long time family friends. How did they react? DEHAAN: Everyone was just shocked and my grandparents were up there I remember, well I don’t remember, I remember because I was told. A lot of my friends and people I hardly knew in high school tried coming to visit me, but they wouldn’t allow visitors while I was in intensive care. LAJDZIAK: And then when you got out of intensive care you came back here? Were you in the hospital for a while longer? DEHAAN: I went to Marry Free Bed for three months where, like when I went there I was still on the feeding tube, I kinda slowly got better. Like when I was in intensive care they finally, I like lean myself off the ventilator so I could breathe on my own. Otherwise I would have still been there I think. so they let me go to Marry Free Bed with just a feeding tube where that’s pretty much where I was going to live in my wheelchair. PETRAUSKAS: In intensive care I know you have a little bit of, you kind of found some humor in certain things like what exactly went through you head? What were you thinking when you kind of figured out what happened, and what you were doing now, where you were at? What were you thinking about the future? Anything along those lines. DEHAAN: I don’t think I did think about the future. I think I just thought of the moment and was just going to get through it. I didn’t think bad thoughts, like every time somebody was like “oh no!” I was like “it’ll be ok.” Like I was doing the best out of everybody so.. PETRAUSKAS: So you basically just tried to remain positive and use that to your advantage? DEHAAN: Yeah, exactly. LAJDZIAK: So basically when you came, finally came back home what...how did was, did that feel I guess? I mean obviously it had to be different but maybe you were like in bed like stuck for a while and couldn’t really move at all? DEHAAN: when I was at Marry Free Bed for a while I didn’t want to move because it was scary, like being in a wheelchair and I like couldn’t, like, do anything I thought I was going to fall out like, I had straps all over me and my mom was like “you can’t take those off it’ll look silly” and I was like “no!” Also, I forgot I had a halo for three months as well because I broke my neck and it was screwed into my skull in four Page 6 �places to hold my neck still. So that means I couldn’t take a shower for three months, I had to take a bath in bed everyday. And it was just, not fun. PETRAUSKAS: Were they feeding you through the tubes and everything? DEHAAN: Finally I remember, my dad, he would because I had to eat so many calories a day before they took the feeding tube out, so he would like pretend that I ate because he didn’t want me to be on it anymore but like even they would have me eat like a Kit Kat or something because I wasn’t, I just didn’t have an appetite. I think I lost like twenty pounds and I was, I wasn’t big to begin with so, yeah. Okay then you said after, oh yeah so coming home from the hospital was scary, like, there wasn’t gonna be all that help there was just gonna be my parents and my sister helping me, and I really thought it was, it was really scary but got through it and I just, I knew that I was just gonna just get out of this wheel chair. I wasn’t gonna live like they told me I was gonna, I was gonna do everything I could to walk again. Which I really think helped my positive attitude and helped me going because it just, just did. I remember... LAJDZIAK: Did you come back to, is this the house you were living in? Next door? DEHAAN: No, this is not the house. Yes, next door is where we lived. When I got in my car accident my dad was in the process of building this house, so he pretty much just stopped building because he was gonna have to make changes, so. PETRAUSKAS: Then what changes, and like I know your parents had to deal with the situation kind of as it came, uh and so what renovations and what things can they do to make uh, more suitable for you or for the family? DEHAAN: Mhmm..They had to widen the doors, It’s a pretty open floor plan so they didn’t have to do a ton. And then they also put an elevator in our house and some of our floors were sunken like that. Like the whole living room was supposed to be sunken so they raised that up. But, Other than that they didn’t do... They basically just widening the door ways and the elevator. FELICE: How did your daily activities change during this period? DEHAAN: During this period I couldn’t do anything by myself. Like, make meals, I could hardly eat by myself because my hands were not great at all. like, showering I needed help with that. I needed help getting dressed. Like everything changed. I totally lost my independency and I was so independent before the car accident. So it was, it was totally different but I mean I had so much support that it helped me so much. Like,my mom was there with me all the time, my sister was there all the time, my dad helped me with everything. Most people, they’ll get like a care-giving or something but its nicer with just my family helping me. LAJDZIAK: How about like you said you had a couple best friends, like are they still around? DEHAAN: Yes. Right after my car accident my best friend Jill, she visited me a lot. Like, I was able to go out on outings while I was at Mary Free Bed so she’d come up and we’d goout to dinner. My mom would come with, obviously. But we’d go to dinner, we’d go to the mall or we’d go to a movie or something. Uh, she stuck by me like, so much. We hung out like every single day. my other best friends Page 7 �were Tiffany and Kara and they came and visited a couple times but just, that was about it. I mean we still stayed friends but we weren’t like best friends like we were. Everybody was just kinda like in shock and didn’t really know how to treat me after the accident FELICE: Did you grow closer to your friends and family after the accident? DEHAAN: My family for sure, definitely. After about a year of me and Jill hanging out we kinda just went our separate ways. Like she got a job after the accident. And she went to beauty school and I was in, I was going to Davenport. (whispering) I guess this was still in high school wasn’t it? So through high school we were still really good friends but after that... LAJDZIAK: And then were you able to finish out high school.. (inaudible) DEHAAN: Yeah, I got out of the hospital in about January I think. And then I went back to school in February. Which my sister helped me a ton, like going to classes ‘cause I didn’t have like a wheelchair I could push, they just gave me one like that I was sent home with. So I needed a lot of help after the accident. LAJDZIAK: And your sister was a freshman? DEHAAN: Yeah she was fourteen. PETRAUSKAS: So she was taking care of you most of the time and was there by your side? DEHAAN: Yeah. She had to grow up fast. PETRAUSKAS: And then kind of back to more of your friends again. DEHAAN: Mhmm? PETRAUSKAS: That boyfriend you said to have been chasing that night. How did your relationship end up with him? DEHAAN: He came up to the hospital the night of and kept saying “it’s all my fault it’s all my fault” ‘cause he knew that he saw the car accident and he kept driving. So that’s why he thought it was all his fault. LAJDZIAK: But he didn’t know you were chasing him? Or just... DEHAAN: He knew it was me, he didn’t stop to help. LAJDZIAK: Really? DEHAAN: Yes. So he came up a couple more times. I still wanted to be with him but just, it was so smart that I am not with him any more. So smart. LAJDZIAK: ‘Cause it was kinda already... DEHAAN: It was kinda already going down hill anyways, so.. LAJDZIAK: And then you don’t keep in touch with him at all or anything? Page 8 �DEHAAN: No, no. Nope. LAJDZIAK: And then after...most, majority of people after high school kinda just moved on and... DEHAAN: Yeah, I kinda talked to one friends from high school but that’s about it. Made new friends in college and... LAJDZIAK: And how about them, are they coming over all the time? And do things with them? DEHAAN: Yep. Going over their house, coming over. They got to meet me after the car accident so it was nothing to them of the wheelchair. That was just how they knew me. they’re helpful. They help me in wherever I go. I have one friend John who will carry me anywhere. And then his fiancé Tara is one of my good friends. Stephanie I hang out with a lot. We go downtown, go shopping, watch our nightly shows together LAJDZIAK: Do you feel like your friends in high school treated you differently than your friends in college just because they knew you before the accident, during the accident? DEHAAN: I wouldn’t say so much treating me differently I would say we just grew apart and, yeah, it was bound to happen I think. Whether, if the car accident happened or not. LAJDZIAK: Yeah, once you leave high school you... DEHAAN: Yeah. PETRAUSKAS: And I know you kinda explained uh, that you were over here a lot and you went over there a lot. I know you guys made modifications here to suit your daily life, how difficult was it to go hang out at other places like their homes, that may not be as nearly accessible to your... DEHAAN: Well really when I get asked to a friends house I’m like, well can I get in? But if it was with John I didn’t really worry because he just carried me everywhere, then I just had to worry about if I could fit in the bathroom which is normally I can’t fit in the bathroom anywhere. So I didn’t really worry about it a lot but it was always in the back of my mind. “Is this gonna be ok? Am I gonna be able to get in the house?” so a iot of times I had friends over here but if they have people over there, I go over to their houses and it didn’t matter, he’ll carry me anywhere. So.. PETRAUSKAS: How about when you go out in public, like to stores or restaurants. How, how different is that? DEHAAN: I get stared at a lot. I get rude comments, I get really nice comments. the staring is everywhere I go. Like every time I go out I get starred at. So I’m just used to it now. My sister, she’s with me she will stand up for me. But half the time nobody sees anyone staring at me just ‘cause its be like seven years. But at first it was hard to deal with. Like I’m like “Why is everyone staring at me?” And my mom would always tell me “oh it’s just because you’re so pretty” and I’m like “yeah right mom.” Haha yeah... KADI’S DAD: Can I interject? LAJDZIAK: Yeah. Page 9 �KADI’S DAD: When we go on vacation, planned vacation, we go to Mexico or we go to Jamaica. We do have to take into account that we have to find the handicap accessible place down there so, we do look for things like that. LAJDZIAK: Would you say that in other countries its not as like access...as like...I feel like in the US I feel like most places are kinda required to have that be accessible and then when you go down to Mexico is that very different? KADI’S DAD: Well like I said, we had to look at several different resorts to find the one that was capable of handling her so. PETRAUSKAS: How about transportation like on the flights and stuff. I can only imagine how difficult that is. KADI’S DAD: I carry her on and off the busses down there, stuff like that. DEHAAN: They do have people to assist at airports to carry me on and off, but if my family’s with they’ll just carry me instead. that brings up another thing I’ve been to Russia 10 times for steam cells, that is a whole trip in itself, for not being accessible, where we go I mean its for people who cant walk and are in wheel chairs so the place is accessible. But its just a culture shock and people who are in accidents there and are in wheel chairs there they go to live in an institution because they don’t have houses there its all apartments so they don’t have elevators they just go upstairs so everybody who is in an accident is just taking away from their family and they live in an institution. Where they pretty much just don’t do anything. So yea but I been to Russia for stem cells they are embryonic..not embryonic they are my own stem cells they come from my bone maro.m we kinda check into this like a year after... 2 years after my accident. You want me to keep going on that. LAJDZIAK: Yeah DEHAAN: Two years after my accident it was my first trip there it was in june of 2006 my mom did a ton of research and I actually knew somebody who went there and was getting good results from this.. so I was like well heck yea lets give it a try, and since my injury was incomplete that means there is like a chance for me to recover. So that’s a good spinal cord injury if you could say there is a good one. That’s what it is incomplete. So yea the first time I went there they did a.. I got shots for 4 days which made the stem cells from my bone maro flow into my blood and then they did a blood transfusion to get then stem cells out. And then they put them into like 20 vials so that each time I went back I would get like 2 injections. after the first visit I was able to sweat again which sounds funny because you don’t think that because you have a spinal cord injury you cant sweat but yess, and the sun worshoper that I am it was nice to get back into the sun and not almost pass out. So after the first 3 timess.. LAJDZIAK: So you go back there every...? DEHAAN: I went every 3 months in the beginning, so it was almost like we got home and we went back again. I was also doing therapy here, in the United states. Detriot so almost 2 aand a half hours away from my house, so intense therapy 4 days a week, 3 hours a day. then they finally got one closer to my house in grand rapids. So I was doing that at the same time while getting these injections because if you Page 10 �don’t do therapy and get these injections it doesn’t help you. You have to be doing tharepy while getting them. LAJDZIAK: So I just promotes healing.. DEHAAN: It like.., how do I word this..it reconnects the nerves in the spinal cord so that the connection can go through again. LAJDZIAK: Yeah right. DEHAAN: What happened to my spinal cord it was like brusied not like cevered or anything. So I don’t know. FELICE: So does like the therapy like try to stimulate the nerves and try to get them to work DEHAAN: At therapy yes.. before when I wasn’t able to walk. like do anything with my legs. They would like walk them for me. and I would just do like core strengthening, hand therapy, all sorts of things to try to walk again. LAJDZIAK: So the stem cell what is it called PETRAUSKAS: Stem cells LAJDZIAK: So the stem cell in Russia helped your hands too DEHAAN: Yeah it held everything. LAJDZIAK: Alright DEHAAN: Yea the stem cells after about 3 trips going there. I was at therapy one day and they were walking my legs on the paralla bar like they always did and all of a suddenly I lifted up my right leg. They were like woah, do it again, so I did it again. So like my physical therapist was like try it with the other one. So I lifted up my left like and everybody was like holy crap.. am I aloud to say crap? LAJDZIAK: Yeah DEHAAN: They were just like shocked and it was like not controlled at all. But it was like I was still lifting up my leg. And moving it forward. So the walking definitely came from the stem cells. LAJDZIAK: Quickly DEHAAN: Yeah and obviously I had to go to therapy on top of the stem cells. Or the stem cell wouldn’t know what to do, so I continued that for probably like a year. With being able to lift my legs and little bit but still needing assistance. And then after so long I was able to control my legs on my own. Like I still couldn’t move them when I was sitting in my chair but when I would stand up. I was able to walk LAJDZIAK: Are you still going to Russia for stem cells? DEHAAN: I haven’t been to Russia in 2 years. Page 11 �LAJDZIAK: Instead of going to Russia your just continuing therapy DEHAAN: Yeah I’m continuing to do therapy, probably after the walking was going really good like no assistance just like walking canes. But no body had to stand behind me or anything thing. I got phenomena and it set me back a year which is crazy I never know phenomena could effect my walking but it did. And then after a year of being set back I was able to do it again I had to slowly, re learn pretty much.. my walking again. And then when I got doing really good again I hurt my back and have a herniated disk at L5 Si. I got hurt at therapy. I aslo have really bad spasms, like muscle spasms in my legs like my leg will kick straight and you cant hardly bend it those got worse when the herniated disk happened. Because my reaction to pain is more spasms, if that makes sense. LAJDZIAK: Where you at know like being able to walk... and ? DEHAAN: Ok the herniated disk happened two years ago I couldn’t do anything. For at least a year. Couldn’t even stand my left leg it was just stay straight up in the air. Like it wouldn’t stay down. I couldn’t drive...m last year... im trying to think., my years get so mixed up.. for probably a year now I have been back to being able to walk again. On Monday I walked 2 laps around the track, without stopping which is huge for me. Today I walked 1 and a half laps. Which is.. one lap is 542 feet. When I first started walking I would go 20 feet and have to sit down and then I would go more like a 100 feet and have to sit down. And then like 200 feet. LAJDZIAK: Do you get tired or is it like painful? DEHAAN: Its not painful at all. Tired I get fatigued.. more like my walking gets sloppy and ill sit down and rest and my walking will get better when I stand back up. LAJDZIAK: So you don’t use like anything to help you walk? DEHAAN: I use walking canes and my trainer does stand behind me just incase. LAJDZIAK: And you said you had a fractured disk like a L5 51 DEHAAN: I hurt it at therapy.. I don’t know how that happened.. I think I was walking at therapy and I went to fall and my trainer grabbed me by this belt I have so I was like hanging there by this belt and my back like twisted wrong.. and my parents both have back problems too so it hereditary. LAJDZIAK: But you don’t experience any pain like right now? Kadi right now no.. I did have pain I was like sweating all the time and just deprived me from walking. LAJDZIAK: how did you get phenomena if you don’t mind me asking. DEHAAN: I got sick and my lungs weren’t good I guess. LAJDZIAK: I have had phenomena too so I was just wondering. FELICE: It seems like your life has had a lot of turmoil have you offered you story to other people as like insperiation. Page 12 �DEHAAN: I feel like my story does inspire people even like where I work out these people see me for 6 years and they’ll come up to me and say like heyy your doing really good, and they notice me up there walking and when I’m not up there walking. So they say I do inspire a lot of people. Actually yesterday I went to talk a drivers training class. Talk to them about, driving in conditions either you emotions are different or the weather is effected. PETRAUSKAS: Explain a little bit about how driving ahs changed since the accident. So your able to do the old way what kind of new stuff did you have to learn to drive again. DEHAAN: I had to take drivers training all over again. I started driving like this huge bus van. Like it was ginormous and I took it in Detroit, where I was doing therapy. He said I would probably need like 20 or 30 hours of driving. I did like 10 and he said I was good because I caught onto it real fast. I have to drive with hand controls so I haveone hand on the steering wheel and one hand on my left hand does the gas and break you pull for the gas and push for the break. so that was a learning a whole new way of driving but it didn’t seem abnormal. PETRAUSKAS: And your able to drive by yourself? DEHAAN: Yeah I’m able to drive by myself. I have a van that has a ramp on it so I just hit the button door opens and the ramp comes down. LAJDZIAK: So you go right out the back then DEHAAN: No it’s the side. LAJDZIAK: So the whole driver side? DEHAAN: It’s the passenger side; you like wanna see it don’t you. LAJDZIAK: Yeah I wanna see what it looks like.. ohh the white one DEHAAN: Yea so the door opens and the ramp like its folded up and it flips down. LAJDZIAK: But you can drive right? DEHAAN: Yeah I drive from my chair. LAJDZIAK: Ohh alright so there is like no driver seat. DEHAAN: Yeah no driver seat. FELICE: How does your chair like lock in? DEHAAN: There’s a bolt that it locks in. PETRAUSKAS: And so your still able to cruse down the road with your windows down? DEHAAN: Yes haha but I don’t go as fast LAJDZIAK: How bout the rap music Page 13 �DEHAAN: Noo no rap music country all the way. LAJDZIAK: Thats what we had to listen to on the way over. PETRAUSKAS: Excuse me LAJDZIAK: Do they make a lot of cars like that? DEHAAN: They do make trucks I know. I didn’t want one of those because I hate the snow and you have to like transfer when you get in, and I like to be in and out. I know they make trucks, vans, and some people don’t have anything they just lift themselves in and they have hand controls. LAJDZIAK: Is that like a private company that did it or did Honda do it? DEHAAN: It’s a Toyota so. the Toyota van goes to its called clock conversions. They are on 68th street luckly they’re close., and they modify everything PETRAUSKAS: My question is how financially difficult this has been to get everything to par with where your at in life. DEHAAN: Yea that’s a good question. Since I was in an auto accident my insurance they pay for like everything that I would need which I am so fortunate for like there are so many expenses. They bought my van 70 thousand dollars. Like I would not be driving if I had to pay 70 thousand dollars there’s no way. luckily my parents were able to pay for every trip to Russia, which is also not cheap. So fortunately auto insurance pays for everything I need so that my parents are able to afford things like going to Russia. LAJDZIAK: When you like did the company like clock conversion did they recommend a certain car for you to get? DEHAAN: My first one was a dodge caravan and then the contract that was up and had to get me a new one. PETRAUSKAS: So of course, I think you already touched on it that you enjoy driving. DEHAAN: Yeah PETRAUSKAS: Do you like to drive? DEHAAN: mhmm, yup LAJDZIAK: And then...How about seatbelts? Do you feel like your keen on them or not? DEHAAN: Now I always wear my seat belt. LAJDZIAK: Do you tell other people to put on their seatbelts before you start the car? DEHAAN: Yes, I do. And my passenger seat has the beeper, so it doesn’t stop beeping until you put the seatbelt on so. Page 14 �FELICE: Do you think in the future you want to more stuff like talk to drivers ed classes about driver’s safety and stuff. DEHAAN: Yeah, I totally would. Yeah, I think that would be really good. Maybe that will teach them to slow down, and not think they are so cool, drive fast. PETRAUSKAS: When you driving, just knowing what has happened in the past. Do you ever think of that when you’re driving? Or do you think of anything bad possibly happening again? Or anything like that? DEHAAN: Sometimes I think of something bad happening again. Like if people try to get in my lane. I’m just like woo, what are you doing? It freaks me out. l would say my driving in the rain still does scare me still. l can’t see when its dark out and it’s raining. Everything just like blurs together. so that defiantly still scares me. But otherwise driving on nice days... LAJDZIAK: Do you try to avoid driving on days where... DEHAAN: I wouldn’t say I avoid, I’m just extra cautious. FELICE: Have you driven by the spot of the accident? DEHAAN: Yeah, and actually for a while there was a burn mark for years. They cover it up, finally they repaved a year ago...last summer maybe. Yeah. It didn’t bother me to drive over that spot. PETRAUSKAS: How often do you actually do it? Do you maybe make time out of your day and just go, every once and a while, and visit that spot? DEHAAN: No, I would say I visit that spot. But its right in town, it’s on my way in to Byron Center. So if I’m going into town, I’m going to pass it. Half the time I don’t think twice what happened there. LAJDZIAK: I got questions but he’s distracting me. how about the car? Did they junk the car or? DEHAAN: Yeah yup LAJDZIAK: How did you get hit during the accident? Was it a head on collision or? DEHAAN: I don’t know. I think it was from the back the way the picture looks. But I don’t remember. l think probably from the back which made me go through the windshield, and go forward. The side? FELICE: It looks like the explosion was from the gas tank. LAJDZIAK: What about the other driver of the car that hit you? DEHAAN: The other...it was a couple who are like my parents age, because my mom went to high school with them. They were completely fine. Except for the next day she had stomach pain. So she went to the hospital and they actually found cancer. So it was actually a good thing for them because otherwise she may not have thought anything was wrong. LAJDZIAK: Did they visit you at the hospital or anything? Page 15 �DEHAAN: You know what? I’m not sure if they did. I know they talked to my mom and they felt really bad and she was like it’s not your fault, it’s hers. So...l didn’t get ticketed for it or anything. PETRAUSKAS: have you met these people and have communicated with them since the accident? DEHAAN: No, Nope. I know of who they are because I graduate with their daughter. But I didn’t talk to them after or anything. LAJDZIAK: I would be like asking them, what did I look like? DEHAAN: No. I guess after the car accident, my face was just a mess. LAJDZIAK: Really? DEHAAN: Yeah. It was all bruised. This side of my face was all bruised. And I have a scare here from something. Maybe glass. I don’t know. This is my only other scare on my elbow. So it was almost like I flew out of my car, because I flew 40 feet. LAJDZIAK: And then on to the cement? DEHAAN: Yeah. But it was like I cover my face like this or something. I don’t know. Another weird thing about my car accident was my purse was in the front seat and my back pack was in the back seat, and the both ended up in the hospital room. Nobody knows how they got there. Nobody knows how they got out of the car. Yeah, that was kind of weird. LAJDZIAK: what about any eye witnesses or anything like that? Kind of embellish on what they saw. DEHAAN: I don’t remember eye witnesses of the car accident. I remember like my...l don’t know what he’s called at the high school...just superintendent maybe or something. He came out and he actually grabbed me off the road and pulled me into the grass. but...I know I told my mom this yesterday, you should have took a picture of my face. She’s like, Kadi I couldn’t even think. I was like, well I wanted to see what it looked like. LAJDZIAK: He kind of mentioned it, the news really blew up over this situation DEHAAN: Yeah LAJDZIAK: How did that affect you? DEHAAN: I dint know for a long time that I had died. My parents didn’t tell me. My sister didn’t tell me. One of my friends was like hey, I thought you died. I was like what? My sister was like shhh. So she didn’t want me to know. But...l think the news over reacts about a lot of things, and messes a lot of things up. So I don’t listen to them a lot. LAJDZIAK: Did they like interview you or anything like that? DEHAAN: After words...news 8 was the one the messed up and said I died. So when I started walking, I remember, the paper, the Grand Rapids press did articles about me. The news did one because for my Page 16 �21 5t birthday I walked into the bar. That was with help obviously. But...yeah that was big. So was on the news then. It actually made national news. LAJDZIAK: really? DEHAAN: yeah. Mhmm. LAJDZIAK: they really didn’t, I guess, approach your family or anything like that? DEHAAN: No. like they usually do? No. FELICE: Do you feel like your life has less privacy after the accident because of this? DEHAAN: yeah. Yeah. Especially seeing doctors. My modesty, I don’t have any anymore. LAJDZIAK: So when you see doctors? DEHAAN: Yeah, I did at first. I don’t now. But so that is nice after I could stop seeing doctors. It was like every week, I had to go to the doctor. It was so old. I just wanted to live my life and be normal. LAJDZIAK: how? l can’t think what I was going to say now. PETRAUSKAS: How about...l don’t know if we talked about this yet. your education. You dealt with the accident and you got yourself through high school. Where did you decide to go to college? What did you decide to go into? DEHAAN: I think before the accident I wanted to go to western with all my friends or something. Then after the accident I was like well I need to stay somewhere close to home because I can’t go far away. I can’t move out. So then I decided davenport. I got a full ride scholarship there, all because I wrote a letter. So that was exciting. where was I going with this? What did you ask? PETRAUSKAS: What did you decide to go into when you got to davenport? DEHAAN: Oh ok. I wanted to go into accounting. Then I took accounting 1 and it was a little harder than I thought, but I was still going to go into it. So then I tried to take accounting 2. I took it four times to pass. So I was like, after the second time of not passing, I was like I’m switching my major ASAP. So I went into sports marketing. Got a degree in that. LAJDZIAK: And then, you are now with a realtor. Did you try to look at any jobs when you graduated? DEHAAN: When I graduated I wasn’t really in to looking for a job then, because I was focused on my physical therapy. last fall I was like, ok, I have had my degree for a year; I need to do something with it or I’m never going to get anywhere. So I got an internship with a property management company. That lasted 3 months. I was doing their marketing for them. I made there brochure, I made flyers, all that sort of thing. Then he like said, “Hey, yeah, you’re probably going to get a job here.” So I was excited. He said probably just in a few months is when we will financially be able to give you a job. Well he just hired 4 more interns. So he did it that way, the free way. And I was actually on craigslist one day, just searching. I never still looked hard for a job because I needed who would be flexible with my schedule, to be able Page 17 �to do physical therapy still. So one day I was just looking on craigslist and found this part time job, make good money, doing marketing for a real estate company. So it was kind of similar to what I did for my internship, but still different. So I interviewed, and he gave me the job on the spot. And they too had to make modifications for me. Actually when I got the interview, I drove by the place and there was two big steps to get in. So I was bummed. Because now I’m not going to be able to get in, and I really wanted this job. So that is something too. If I get an interview, I have to be careful, like I have check out the place pretty much before I go. To see if someone needs to come with me or if I’m going to be able to go by myself. So I just called him and was like hey here is my story. I’m in a wheel chair, do you have a back door or anything? Can we meet somewhere different from the office? He’s like yeah, no problem. And most people would probably hang up or just say oh well I found someone else. Or forget it. Yeah. LAJDZIAK: SO you feel like, do people at your internship and your job now do you feel they treat you... DEHAAN: Oh they treat me totally fine. It just depends on the person. LAJDZIAK: Oh really. DEHAAN: Yeah, here is another story. I am looking for a new trainer to come to my house to work out. And I put an ad on craigslist. They will write me for it. I will write them my background and tell them my story, and hey, this is what I’m looking to do. And they won’t write back. So... PETRAUSKAS: How about like once you’re graduated and you were actually looking for a marketing job, did you get interview for multiple companies or anything like that? Have you ever been judged differently in an interview or anything along those lines? DEHAAN: Actually the two interviews I had, work out great. So I guess when I got judged was before an interview when they would email me back and I would tell them my situation. So I learned to just not tell people my situation before I go into an interview. And then it was totally fine. LAJDZIAK: Why do you think they would, where not replying? DEHAAN: People just don’t know how to approach somebody who’s different then you I’d guess I’d say. FELICE: When you’re out in public do you think people have prejudice against you? Judging you before they even get to know you. DEHAAN: Yes. Oh I totally...yeah. I totally get that a lot. A lot of people just don’t get to know me because they see the wheelchair. People don’t know how to act, and most of the time it comes off as rudeness to me. FELICE: What do you think they are thinking about you? DEHAAN: Well I just think that they, maybe, I don’t know what they think about me. I just... LAJDZIAK: Do you think majority of people like you said you have heard comments and people star, other than the staring and stuff like that, do you think the majority of people are just not use to the situation? Page 18 �DEHAAN: Yeah, I think so. I just think they are not use to it. And some people are, I don’t know, they like the way their friends look. They like convenience. Friends who aren’t in a wheelchair can get up and go wherever, whenever they want. I mean I can too but it takes me a little longer. And I have to think of things before I do them so... LAJDZIAK: In your job now, they don’t...medical expenses...I guess that doesn’t have anything to do with a job. DEHAAN: No. PETRAUSKAS: Or any type of benefits or anything along those lines? DEHAAN: Like what do you mean? PETRAUSKAS: Does your job offer any type of benefits? DEHAAN: No, because it is part time. So then I’m still covered under my...l will always be under my auto insurance and they will always have to pay until I am completely better. Yeah. LAJDZIAK: I have to have insurance. DEHAAN: it’s sad because if someone dives into a pooi, they don’t have auto insurance and nothing is paid for. PETRAUSKAS: So luckily this happened in a vehicle. DEHAAN: Yeah PETRAUSKAS: in that case, you were covered. DEHAAN: Yeah. Even those people in swimming accidents, go get in the car after you were in that accident because everything will be paid for. Like hospital bills, everything. My bill for intensive care was 300,000 dollars. LAJDZIAK: What’s your insurance? Do you know what auto insurance you have? DEHAAN: Grange PETRAUSKAS: Now that we are getting personal, how has this affected your personal life? DEHAAN: I guess I don’t let it. PETRAUSKAS: I know you said you friends and stuff, you kind of went your separate ways after a certain time periods or when you got to the college level, how has it affected you dealing with people every day, maybe finding, you talked about cute doctors and stuff, so how has it affected your dating life or just meeting the other sex basically? DEHAAN: It really just depends on the person like right after my car accident I met this guy; he saw a picture of me on my friend’s refrigerator. He was like she is really cute I want to date her, and they knew Page 19 �what just happened to me. They were like, we better tell him before they meet or whatever. So they told him and he was like I don’t care. We dated for like two years, it was great. some people we will date for a little bit and be like this is a little difficult, I’m not use to this. Like if they have to carry me somewhere or something. It just out of there way or something to do it. I just depends on the person. But dating for me hasn’t been more difficult. I hear people say it is, I try not to let it affect me. Go about living my life. PETRAUSKAS: So basically tell us basically where you are at now? I know your days are complex with working a new job, going through all you rehabilitation and stuff like that. How is your day structured? How do you find time for hobbies and friends? DEHAAN: My weeks are pretty much the same. Monday is the same. Tuesday is pretty much the same. Mondays I get a massage in the morning, have therapy in the afternoon. Tuesday I will be working all day. Wednesday I go to therapy, then from therapy to work until 5. Thursday is the same as that. Finally I will have my Fridays off again so... PETRAUSKAS: And with therapy, how much do you go to therapy per week or per month? DEHAAN: Yeah, I go to therapy, right now I’m going 3 days a week for 3 hours a day. It also takes a half hour to get there and back. So if I go in the afternoon it takes up my whole day pretty much. And when I am at home, I spend my nights relaxing, hanging out withfriends, or doing those type of things. In my free time and on my weekends I spend a lot of my free time doing therapy. I have a standing chair I’m constantly in because I don’t like sitting in this chair all the time, so I will stand at the counter there and sit on my lap top or watch tv or whatever. I have a bike downstairs that I ride every now and then. A lot of my time is doing therapy and relaxing and hanging out with my friends. FELICE: What are you looking to do with your future? DEHAAN: That’s a dumb question, I don’t know. My future...l’d like to travel all over, get married someday, and have kids. LAJDZIAK: So you enjoy going to Russia and like... DEHAAN: Yeah, I enjoy going there sometimes. LAJDZIAK: Did you feel that Russia was way different then here? DEHAAN: The first trip there I screamed bloody murder to come home. I was not going to stay there. No way. No way. Nobody spoke English, I was sick because they gave me a spinal tap, I couldn’t get out of bed for four days, I was so sick. I just wanted to come home. It was just crazy. LAJDZIAK: Was the food different there? DEHAAN: It was disgusting. And they yell at you if you don’t eat it so we would flushed it down the toilet. Page 20 �LAJDZIAK: I had class with him. We were talking about different free states and stuff. They were saying that Russia like not free also. Did you notice that among the people? DEHAAN: People are like strait faced, they do not smile. You could tell we were American because we smiled. They don’t like Americans. There was a McDonalds there, if was so nice for us because we would go there like every other day, because that was good to us and there food was so gross. We would pack a full suitcase full of food to eat because we didn’t eat any of theirs. LAJDZIAK: How about the people at the... DEHAAN: The clinic where we were so nice. Like you have to get to know them. After a couple times of me going there, the nurse would run up to me and give me a kiss on the cheek. They were excited to see you again. They really are caring people. LAJDZIAK: Does people from all over go there too? DEHAAN: Yeah. A lot of Greeks go there because their government pays for them to go there actually. PETRAUSKAS: So I know you were talking about what you enjoy eating. How has your diet changed and what kind of stuff do you have to do to regulate your diet? DEHAAN: If I were to gain a lot of weight, this would be a lot harder. Transferring and stuff, I probably wouldn’t be able to do it. lucky enough I can eat almost anything I want and not gain weight. Now, I don’t eat fast food or anything, I try to stay healthy. PETRAUSKAS: What kind of health foods do you eat? DEHAAN: Chicken. PETRAUSKAS: Would chicken be your favorite? DEHAAN: Probably one of my favorites yeah. I eat chicken every day, Pasta. Good protein foods. FELICE: Do you cook? DEHAAN: No. I microwave cook, that’s about it. PETRAUSKAS: So you’re an awesome cook then? DEHAAN: Yes. My mom is an awesome cook. Luckily I still live at home. LAJDZIAK: I miss home I’ll tell you that. Home cooked meals are nice. PETRAUSKAS: So I guess to try to wrap this up, maybe words of kind of wisdom or just basically kind of wrap it up give a sentence, a little blurb, what things you would like maybe changed to make things easier in your life, like stuff that is more handicap accessible or advice for someone in your situations to help better themselves and to take them to the next level to keep them... Page 21 �LAJDZIAK: Well inform people how you would like to be treated or how to approach you and things like that. DEHAAN: ok. That’s a lot, I’ll try to remember everything you said. thing that I would like changed is when going places, if they had a button to push and the door would open. Me and doors are not friends. I cannot open them half the time. So that is not fun. That’s my biggest thing. I’m always nervous to go places by myself like a restaurant or something. If I meeting someone, I will usually wait for them to get the door for me because I can’t get doors. So that would be wonderful if places had a button to push to make the door open everywhere. The way I want to be treated is just like everyone else. Don’t look at the wheelchair, like obviously you’re going to see the wheel chair, try to go past it. Get to know me for me, because I am still a normal person. I like to have fun and I’m outgoing. Yeah. My advice would be, try to stay positive. That is what has got me through everything. I never went through depression like most people do with a tragic injury or something. And what remind me to keep going every day is just somebody has it worse than me. I got to therapy with people who can’t move their arms and can only move their neck. One guy can’t even talk because his injury is so bad. People have it worse then you. For sure. PETRAUSKAS: Airight. We would like to thank you for giving us the chance to interview you. DEHAAN: You’re welcome. PETRAUSKAS: it was a pleasure for sure. LAJDZIAK: It was really nice meeting you. DEHAAN: Yeah, thanks. LAJDZIAK: I’m interested in that car. DEHAAN: We can go look at it if you want. END OF INTERVIEW Page 22 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a50ff8394af844c4ef4d83ff361c096.mp3 89ec3be9c33451f0047aa8260bc12152 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_DeHaan_Kadi Title A name given to the resource Kadi DeHaan audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource DeHaan, Kadi Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Petrauskas, Kelly Lajdziak, Andrew Helms, Fred Felice, Zachary Description An account of the resource Kadi DeHaan was in a car accident when she was in high school. She lost feelings and use of her legs. She has been in rehabilitationand is learning muscle memory. She is in great progress toward her goal of walking again. She discusses her accident and how it has changed her life. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives